r'•• ·, to the station then at two-thirty? 2 A. 3 I took Bob out of' the cell block, toolc hlm baclc to the peteotive Uh, I took Bob out of' the cell block, i;ergeant flloNaughton !lnd '* bureau in till! juvenile section, 11nd there 6 Q, All right. ~;tarteq Can you relate to the court l~h!lt to talk to him, he sai!l to you 6 you said to llim 1 if anything? 7 A, 8 I told Bob that I had learned tllat they bad purchased a gun 9 California by sending away through tile mail for it, 10 Uh 1 we sat down and I told Bob that I llad tallced to Ilia I told Bob I had showed !lis father a picture of a gun from a magazine tll!lt I 11 had found in the Dowlut home with a similar type advertizement ad- 12 vertizing these guns, I told Robert tllat his father had told me 13 that this was similar to the type of gun that they had purchased 14 through the mail, Bob asked me at that time what the caliber was 16 and I said, 16 about tile gun other than tllat it was an American-made gun. "Well,~, I said, "Bob, I'm not going to tell you anyt 17 talked a little more-- now this was .about two-forty-five when I 18 started tallcing, when Sergeant McNaughton and I atart!;!d talking 19 Bob, 20 !lad anything to say to us the truth would always be best, I more I During this time I asked Bob,/told Bob that I felt that if 21 less talked about morals with him 1 I talked about his religion, I 22 said I always felt that the truth was beat because-- 23 and listened to this and then he made a motion like he was streto 24 .lng, he leaned back in his chair and he a aid, "vlell, you know, se 25 geant 1 it's Just like a person is two people," 26 do you mean by that?" and he said, "vlell 1 if one part of me can And I said 1 "What 27 love and the other part can kill," arid I said, "Bob, that's true, 28 there's part that can kill, I think ppOba~ly it 1 s within all of us 29 buried deeply, but with certain provacstions can come to the fore- 30 ground," And at that time he said-- At that time I looked at my 31 watch because I felt that something was going to happen, it was 32 three-fifteen, and he looked at Sergeant McNaughton and I and he 112~. said, "Will you do me one favoi•?" I said, "Well, if we oan, is it?" and he said 1. "Will you not .uae my home addt•ess? 3 11 11 What and \1ell, Bob, I think we can. do that,; however the newspapers will us 4 it," 6 was going to tell I said, "We'll use Camp Ord." So the first inkling tnat. Bob 6 in regard to this, he said', "I didn 1 t mean to snoot; that man, 11 7 said, "Of whom are you t•lking? B the fellow at the pawn shop," ~bOut' :this accident,. the fii;st ~t~t~ment he. made Mr. Berkowitz?" and lle said, I said, "Bob, tell us about him." He said that he wanted to marry his girl friencl, Cammie ll I ; 10 said that her mother was against this, didn't like him, was 11 to prevent them from seeing one another, and he didn't like Mrs. 12 cum, He said that he was about due to go back to camp 13 wanted to take Cammie with him, but he needed some money, 14 that he took thif. gun from his home, and I asked him what 16 he said it was a Webley, a ,45 Webley, 16 gun and he stuck it in his pants, in his belt, under his jacket, 17 he said he 18 walkl.ng by this pawn shop and he looked in (lncl he saw the man in ~lent Ah, he said that uptown looking for a place to rob, He said he was 19 there alone and he went in and as he went in he pulled the gun out 20 and he cocked it, 21 and he grabbed at the gun and he jerked back, and when he jerked 22 back, why, the gun went off. 23 He ran out of the place, He said the man looked at him and jumped at him He said the man screamed and Bob ran At that time I stopped him and I aaked him which direction he'd run and he said he didn't really know, 26 all he could hear was this man screaming, lie said -n't he did know, he did/run towards Michigan Street, he ran in the 27 direction, in a westerly direotion, 28 Q, 29 ing of is on Western Avenue? All right, Now, west, t;hnt would be-- the pawnshop you're spa 30 A. 31 Q, And he said that he ran west of thnt? 32 A, West, yes, Yes, 1125. •-'···· Q, All right-- 2 A. He ran west of that location, 3 to himsel:r;.·as·:he was .runni:ng he .. said· that all he could 1 He said that when he 4 this man's screaming, 6 was going on he was in the schoolyard of the Morris S~hool i ·the He said when he finally came to realize 6 :ria School, that would be the retardetl•sQhool, 7 Q, 8 this pawn shop? 9 10 A, Now, will you tell the court where that is with relation to This is ~1est of the pawn shop, appl•oximately, oh, ten to twe blocks, I-- I, well, not that far, either, Nine blocks, it is, ll of the pawn shop, and just a little bit north, 12 Q, And where in :relation to the home of Anna Marie It's just, well, a few hundred feet, actually, catty-cqrner 13 A, 14 down the street a ways from the home, 16 Q, 16 the residence of So this is the position or place in-between the pawn shop and Anna Marie Yocum? 17 A, Yes, 18 Q, While traveling in a westerly direction? 19 A, Right, 20 it's not a school ground, it's a big yard, he said that he became He said that as he was going through this schoolyard, 21 sick to his stomach and he vomited, and then he· walked out on the 22 sidewalk and he tlalked west a little more toward the Yocum 23 He said he went around it to the back of the, this large 24 Mrs, Yocum had an apartment, 26 that goes upstairs, and he said he sat on the steps and thought, 26 27 I asked him how long he'd sat there, if he remembered, and he sai for he didn't-A really didn't know, He said i t was/five minutes or 28 hours, he didn't know, There's a back entrance, a He just sat there, I asked him why 29 "Hhy did you go there, Robert?" and he made thio statement, 30 verbatim now, he said, "I went there to kill her," I said, 31 did you do then?" 32 back door of the apartment, went into the building, and He said, "Well, I went up the steps, 1126. sequentlY into her apartment. He said, "I pulled the gun out of He &aid ~he was aitti11:g in a rock~~g ch_air with_ the tele-- 2 belt. n 3 vision on. 4 tleu-like, and she started to get up and he .fired, He said she-- 1~hen he walked in :;he· looked He went 6 her, she turned and went 'towards the.door or the apartment, 6 at the front end of the apa1•tment, and he ~an past her.:anii 'I and he fired again at her,·.and that she fell at· that time, 8 "Bob, did she fall on her back? 9 said, "No, she fell on her race," I hadn't been there, but of the scene pictures/and I was just trying to corroborate if this was true; 10 I Did she land on her back?" and He ran down the back steps and down the alley west, continued 11 12 west toward the city cemetery-- 13 back uptown, that he took the gun to the Colfax Street bridge and no! excuse me, He said that 14 threw the gun and shells into the river. 16 take Sergeant McNaughton and I and a photographer to the approxi- 16 mate location on the bridge where he threw the gun and he said he 17 would. I asked him if he would Well, this was three-thirty that we left the station with 18 the photographer. 19 Q, Well, where if anywhere did you go then? 20 A. We went to the Colfax Street bridge in South Bend, 21 Q, All right, and what if anything did you do there? 22 A, We parked on the bridge and walked out to the, Bob told us to 23 stop and he indicated a place in the river, he said he'd thrown it 24 in this general area, 25 1 t 's no longer used, but the curt•ent is real swift thet•e. It would have to be near an old power plant 26 Q, 27 A. 28 know llhat we't•e going to have to do, we're going to have to have 29 river lowei•ed some, we 1 re going to have to put divers down. 30 if you didn't throw it there, tell us, don't-- 31 us that you wounded one man and that you've killed this lady, don' 32 jeopardize someone else's life, What if anything did you say? there I asked Bob at this time, we looked down/and I said, "Bob, you Now, You've already tol He said, no, he'd thro>m it there So we got back then· and, we took.piotures, just _where he 1 d thrown it • 3 4 . Uh, 11e got back in the car, we to:).d the photographer we ~rent over to the MorZ.fs·, uh, -this Morris school, that's a ret chi~dreiJ' s s'choo'l, ~nd. ~re. asked' him' i f he co~~d 6 ed 6 proximate location where he fiad 'vomited, we wanted to ·check 7 out, 8 general path through this yard. 9 10 indica.te So we went over there and he tried to--he tried to It had 1•ained the night an·d then· he also said that most of the vomit was liquid. Well, still tried to find it, but 1~e couldn't find it, couldn't 11 anywhere. 12 Q. Did there come a time that you returned to the station then? 13 A, Yes, Then we went back to the station after we were unable to 14 locate the spot where he'd vomited, 16 Q. All right. 16 A, vie got back to the sta-- to ·the. dete_ctj.ve bureau, took him in 17 the polygraph room and he'd already admitted this in f1•or\t of What if anything happened there? 18 geant McNaughton and myself, it was four o'clock or thereafter, 19 shortly thereafter, the night shift had come on, I wanted him to 20 admit this in front of someone else, so I asked Sergeant Bergman 21 and Sergeant Santa to come into the polygraph room. 22 Bob to these two officers, :i: asked Bob if he would again go 23 this whole story in front of them, which he did, 24 26 I introduced ln the meantime Mr, Dowlut had been brought to the station. •1as aske(l if he'd come down in the company of-- I forget the effie 26 he accompanied several officers down to the station. 27 to check with Mr, Dowlut-- well 1 -.the conversation I'd had with 28 Dowlut, it didn't jibe with just exactly what Bob had told us, 29 30 31 32 forgot one part in telling: that Bob admitted this, I Uh 1 ~eked Bob he had told his father-- I told Bob •1hat his dad had said, that thrown his gun away several years ago, and Bob said 1 he said 1 "I told my dad to say that Monday night, I saw him and I told him in 1128, ~ ECH 1 Polish to say that." ~1hen he said that? Q. Monday night, 3 A. Rlght. 4 Q. In Polish, 6 A, He said, "I told him Monday night 6 about this gun." 7 this part.of.·the-story out, so I went into the-- I see, All right, So Hr. Dowlut was there, I wanted to: again 8 time was in the middle room in the juvenile bureau, 9 and talked to Mr. Dowlut, I told Mr. Dowlut that Bob 10 this and I'm sorry about it, Bob had admitted it, Bob had told me 11 that he had had this conversation with his father in Polish 12 ing him what to say in regard to this gun, I wondered if he 13 want to tell the truth about this now. Mr. Dowlut said, No, 14 just repeated his story, that Bob was wrong. 16 he needn't be afraid, that we ~1eren' t going to do anything to him, I told Mr. 16 that I could understand the father, you know, trying to protect hi 17 son, but he maintained that this was not right, what he had said 18 was correct. So I went back in the polygraph room, Sergeant Berg- Ill man and· Sergeant Santa was still in the polygraph room with Robert 20 and when I went back in Sergeant Santa and Sergeant Bergman 21 they said, called me by name, he said, "Bob said, while you 22 gone, we talked about it, this river thing, and we,emphasized the. 23 that it was dangerous for a diver; now, 24 make us go through all that." 25 now about the gun. He said, "Bob has told us the He said he buried this gun, that after he 26 the Yocum apartment he ran ~1est instead of going uptown, he 27 and went through a city cemetery and had buried the gun; he said 28 he'd t&ks ~~ out to wnere the gun was located,'' 29 Q, 30 seen him? Now, up to this time had the defendant's father Donald Dowlut 31 A, No, not at that time, 32 Q, All right, 429. rtf'~ ECH 1 A, Not that day, 2 Q, Yes, A. I told Bob, I said, 3 4 All right, what if anything did you do a~ter that? wtth his story," 11 Your dad ~s here and he's still atickin~ Bob told.me that he, he said, "Well," he said "dad is an alien and he's afraid that. you know. if he tells- the. 6 7 truth_about this gun,he''s going to be in troubie,•i would you--- 8 Q, I said,-"Bob,· He said that to you? 9 A, Robert said that.to me, yes, 10 Q, All right. A. I Q, Now, I want to ask you at this time, at this juncture of time ll said, "Well, Bob, if you'll write a note to him, something, he telling him," So Bob sat down and/wrote a note, 12 13 14 15 did you or any other police officer instruct this defendant what write in any note? 16 No, A, 17 Q, Now, were you present when he was writing the note? 18 A, Yes sir, I was, 19 Q, All right, A, The paper was there on the polygraph desk part o~ the polyg 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 . 1 5' machine and Bob >lrote this note to his dad and so I took it into the other room where his ~ather was sitting, Sergeant was still in there. Q, Now, he's of Polish ancestry, isn't he? A. Yes. Q, Sergeant Naurocki, and also speaks Polish, doesn't he? A, He speaks very fluently, Q, All right, A. So I told Mr. Dowlut, I said, "Mr. Dowlut, I have a note from Bob," I said, "Sergeant Naurocki will read it to you," Sergeant 31 Naurocki read it to him in English first and then he read it to 32 ir• Polish, And Mr. Dowlut looked at it. I was Bitting rather. ··'·.· ka. ECH 1 close to Mr. Dowlut, this is a small room, I was sitting rather 2 close to Mr. Dowlut, a.nd Mr. Dowlut started to cry and he reached 8 out and he grabbed m11· right a-hold of the hand 1 like this 1 and .he · 4 was l'eally cl'yirtg big teal's, ana he said he was sorl'y for··lying to 6 me, he didn •.t like to lie, but he was. frightened for Bob and he · •. : C'· .-~ =;: .~ \hat. 6 sorry that he had lied to me. 7 could understand then. 8 right, that he hadn't thrown this gun away, that Bob had told him 9 10 And· I said i t was all right, So then he changed his story, that: that 1s · · on Monday night in Polish that if the police asked ·to say that he' gotten rid of his gun several years ago, 11 Q, All right, what else if anything was.said then? 12 A, Then I asked Mr. Dowlut if he 1 d lilte to see Robert and he said 18 Yes, he would; so Sergeant Naurocki and I took Mr. Dowlut into the 14 polygraph room. Mr,-- Sergeant Bergman and Sergeant Santa left 16 polygraph room, leaving Mr. Dowlut, Robel't, and Sergeant Naurocki 16 and myself in the polygraph room, 17 18 One of the first things that Mr. Dowlut said to Bob, he had to know, "Did you write this note?" and Bob said, "Yeah, dad; I did," Ill and with that they both started to cry. 20 21 threw their arms around one another, ·embraced, and both of dad, and Bob kept telling his dad, "Dad,/I'm sorry; I'm sorry I 22 rassed the family," and things of this nature, They stood up and they 23 Finally, when they kind of got settled down and got over their c 24 ing a little bit, Mr. Dowlut was asking Robert some questions in 25 Polish. 26 asked Bob if he did this, Sergeant Naurocki was translating fol' me, and Mr, Dowlut 27 Mr, Plodowski: 28 tion unless than witness made the translation and. could 29 Polish. 80 Court: 81 32 A, We'll object, if the court please, to any transla- s~stain that, for Robert's answers/kill the most par•t were in English, I'll have to a combination, but for the most part were in English. ~31. They were He said, ECH l dad," and he stood up, they we1•e both standing, ·and he indicat~·d to his rather how he did this, he pointed his finger like thi's ( 3 dicating), so this-- Mr. Dowlut's questions were in Polish, but 4 ert waB indicating to his father and said, part 6 oi' it inc:Engu, that he put his hand out here •'anil grabbed at the gun and this 6 when it went off, 7 And evidently-- wei1, there was some more sation in Polish and· Bob said that, Yes, that, Bob 8 father about Mrs. Yocum, 9 At this time Mr. Dowlut went out. 10 told Bob in English he 11 ~;as '1'hey embraced-- oh I 11r, going to hire him an attorney and pleaded with his dad not to hire an attorney, and this was in 12 a~d R~bert 13 pleaded with his dad not to hire an attorney, he said, "Dad, dad, you're wasting money," He said, "I'm going to be in 14 prison for the rest of my life," he said, "Don't spend your money, 16 He said, "You and the family move out of tC>wn," he said, "I've 16 shamed you," he said, "Hove out of town so nobody' 11 know you," 17 18 19 Well, his dad said, "Well, I'm going to get you an attorney," was more conversation in Polish and English, and Mr. Dowlut then escorted out of the polygraph room, 20 21 22 Q, All right, where it' anywhere did you go then with the de A, Well, I stood there and talked a while, I give me a Written statement .tn regard to this, 23 24 25 26 27 ~IOUld, and I said, at this time it was about six-th.irty and 1 "All right," so I went out and I talked to the Inspector and other officers that were there involved in this thing, I that we should wait till morning to take this statement, he'd give us a statement and I know 28 29 30 31 32 are always brought out about how you question a person, and and so forth; I reasoned that we should ~1a1 t till morning, that nobody would talk to him through the evening and night have plenty of opportunity to reconsider if he it, ~1anted So my decision was followed, and I took Bob out to the cell 432.