Case: State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson Transcript of: Grand Jury Volume VI Date: September 23, 2014 This transcript is printed on 100% recycled paper 515 Olive Street, Suite 300 St. Louis, MO 63101 (314) 241-6750 1-800-878-6750 Fax: (314) 241-5070 Email: schedule@goreperry.com Internet: State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 1 3 STATE OF MISSOURI VS. DARREN WILSON GRAND JURY SEPTEMBER 23, 2014 VOLUME VI Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI Sepunnber23,2014 Page 2 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OE ST. LOUIS COUNTY 2 STATE OE MISSOURI 3 4 STATE OE MISSOURI 5 6 7 vs. 8 9 DARREN WILSON 12 The following is a hearing before the Grand 13 Jury of St. Louis County, at the offices of St. 14 Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office, 100 15 South Central Avenue, in the City of Clayton, State 16 of Missouri, on the 23rd day of September, 20l4, 17 before Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 3 i APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: LUMP FOR THE STATE: Ms. Kathi Alizadeh Ms. Sheila Whirley Assistant Prosecuting Attorneys for St. Louis County 100 South Central Avenue, 2nd Floor Clayton, MO 63105 9 (314) 615?2600 Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 5 i 1 GRAND JURY HEARING 2 On Officer Darren 3 Wilson's testimony he mentioned in the physical 4 layout that Mr. Brown ran almost to a light pole 5 before he turned around. Do we have a diagram with 6 that light pole on it? 7 MS. ALIZADEH: I will have to look and see 8 if it is included in the diagram. I'm sure there 9 are pictures and videos that you will see, be able 10 to see the light pole in those images and then if 11 necessary, when we have a witness who is familiar 12 with the scene, if need be, we could have them using 13 our diagram, which has already been in evidence 14 point out to you where the light pole exactly is. 15 All right, very good. 16 MS. ALIZADEH: Good morning. 17 (All jurors say good morning.) 18 MS. ALIZADEH: This is Kathi Alizadeh with 19 the prosecutor's office, present is Sheila Whirley 20 with the prosecutor's office, all 12 grand jurors 21 are present today, it is September 23rd, as well as 22 the court reporter or the stenographer who is taking 23 down what is being said. We are also recording, 24 audio recording, that's happening in the grand jury 25 right now. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 6 i 1 I wanted to make some preliminary remarks. i 2 Now is the, in the next couple of days and a few 3 weeks, I suppose, we are going to be hearing 4 testimony from some people say that they are 5 eyewitnesses of parts of this incident. And many of 6 them have already had, been interviewed, all of them 7 have been interviewed by law enforcement at some 8 point. And as far as I can think of, almost all of 9 them have been recorded by law enforcement as far as 10 their interviews. 11 As you know, we are recording, audio 12 recording everything that's being said as well as 13 taking down by court stenographer everything that is 14 being said. 15 That is an extraordinary thing that in my 16 experience, we've never done before. And, you know, 17 the proceedings in the grand jury are historically, 18 have been secret and people who appear before the 19 grand jury are testifying in secret and it is 20 usually not disclosed that they testified or what 21 they said. But in the interest of the public's need 22 to know that this investigation is thorough and 23 fair, my boss, Robert McCulloch, has decided to do 24 this extraordinary thing, which is to record 25 everything. And if there is sometime down the road Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 7 1 if there is ever an issue as to whether or not this 2 investigation was thorough and fair, we will have 3 those recordings to show exactly what was done. 4 But as you can imagine, there are 5 witnesses who are very uncomfortable who have 6 information and are willing to come forward, but do 7 not want their names disclosed on the record or 8 where they live or, you know, their birthdate, any 9 identifying information about them and that's 10 understandable given what, you know, has happened in ll our community in the past month about, you know, the 12 public's reaction to the incident and the 13 investigation into this. 14 And so because our goal is to get as much 15 information as possible so that you can decide the 16 facts in this case, we have decided that witnesses 17 who do not want their name or identifying 18 information about them to be on the record, we are 19 not going to put that on the record. 20 What we are going to do is when that 21 witness comes forward, he will be sworn, he or she 22 will be sworn, and then the court reporter will not 23 activate the audio recording initially. That 24 witness will then identify themselves to you by 25 their name and where they live, although I told them Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 8 1 I'm not going to ask them for an address, mainly 2 just south county, you know, I live in the Ferguson 3 area, I live in north county, or what have you. 4 And then those witnesses will be referred 5 to, once they've given that identifying information, 6 then I will have the court reporter start the audio 7 recording at that point. So their testimony will 8 still be recorded and the court reporter will 9 transcribe their testimony, but they will be 10 referred to by myself and in the court reporters ll record by witness number. 12 Last night I made a list of every witness 13 who has appeared before you so far and just for the 14 sake of the record, we're just going to go 15 chronologically with the live witnesses as they've 16 testified. 17 So if you recall who was the 18 investigator with the Medical Examiner's Office, he 19 was witness number one. Number two was Detective 20 Number three was although 21 will have to come back because we had to cut 22 him his testimony short, if you recall. 23 Number four was Dr. the medical 24 examiner. Number five, . Number six 25 was Sergeant with the Ferguson Police Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 9 i 1 Department. Number seven, Detective 2 with the County Police Department. Number eight was 3 Special Agent with the FBI and finally 4 number nine, last week, was Darren Wilson, the 5 Ferguson police officer. 6 So we will continue to call witnesses and 7 give them a number so that if they do not want to be 8 identified on the record we will refer to them as 9 witness number 12, 15, you know, what have you. 10 Um, we are not going to do that for ll witnesses who have been on the media because those 12 people have chosen to put themselves out there in 13 the public eye, they've identified themselves by 14 name, they're on TV, so those witnesses will, their 15 names will be on the record. I'll ask them their 16 name and, you know, where they live and in the 17 general vicinity where they live. 18 The other issue is that because we are 19 going to be playing recorded statements that these 20 people have made, and many, in fact, most of these 2l recorded statements, the statements begin with the 22 witness giving their name, their date of birth, 23 their social security number, their address and 24 sometimes, you know their cell phone numbers. 25 And, again, I believe that probably in the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 10 1 case of every witness, that information probably 2 should not be made public. I think it is okay for 3 the witnesses who have been on the news for their 4 names to be out there, but probably not their social 5 security numbers and their exact address and cell 6 phone numbers. 7 So for that reason, when we begin playing 8 a recording of a witness' statement, I will have the 9 court reporter turn off the audio recorder in here. 10 The statements are, they're already on disc, they ll are marked as exhibits, so we have those statements. 12 I will make a record that I'm playing 13 Grand Jury Exhibit, you know, so and so. I'm 14 playing the statement of Witness Number 12, who off 15 the record was identified by us as, you know, by 16 name and so then we will stop the audio recording to 17 play the audio interview that is on disc. 18 In most of these cases we also have 19 transcripts of the recordings that we will pass out 20 to you and then the court reporter will also have a 2l transcript so he can, that will assist him in taking 22 down what's being said, but he will also be 23 instructed, you are instructed that at some point 24 we're going to have to redact that information from 25 the transcript. You and I can discuss that later, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page II but you know, the whole purpose of this is so that we can, you know, keep people, people's private LUMP information private. And in the case of people who don't want to be identified for fear of reattribution, we need to keep them, I guess, unidentified, at least on the record. Does anybody have any questions about that process is or how we are going to do that? We're 9 going to kind of have to work out kinks as we go 10 because I had a discussion at length with other ll people in my office last night about how we were 12 going to go about doing this. So we're going to see 13 how it goes, I guess. l4 So, for 15 instance, these witnesses who are being identified 16 for us at least, does that mean if this were to go 17 to trial that they would not appear, only this 18 portion would then be presented in a trial or they 19 may potentially be required to present themselves? 20 MS. ALIZADEH: If this matter were to go 21 to trial, I mean, first of all, it is not something 22 that you should all really worry about too much. 23 Your job is not, I don't want you guys thinking 24 about what is going to happen after you all make 25 your decision. You can't be affected by that. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 12 1 But in the constitution, everybody who is 2 in trial has the right to confront and cross?examine 3 witnesses who give testimony against them. So, you 4 know, the constitution will not allow us to put on, 5 you know, unidentified witnesses. 6 I know you probably have all seen on 7 television when there are proceedings televised, 8 they will black out the witness' face, but that is 9 just for television. 10 In a courtroom setting, that witness' face ll is not blurred, obviously. So you will understand 12 that that's not something that you have to, I mean, 13 that's not a part of your decision process. 14 Whatever happens after this, we will deal 15 with it, whatever happens, but for now, this is how 16 we are going to proceed. l7 So when everything, all the 19 proceedings, these audios that we are doing, they 20 will be made public? 2l MS. ALIZADEH: That is a decision that we 22 have to wait and see. My boss, Mr. McCulloch, has 23 made a public statement about his intentions. 24 Obviously, if this case, you know, that I can't say 25 for sure. I know he has made public statements at Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 13 1 some point this all will be released. But when, I 2 cannot say and again, that's one of the reasons why 3 you all are referring to yourselves by juror number. 4 Your identities will never be disclosed. So that's 5 how we are trying to handle this. 6 Does anybody else have any other questions 7 about the process? 8 And, I hate to ask you, you 9 normally don't ask questions. You understand what I 10 was trying to explain about the process? 11 I will give you one later when you are 12 actually doing your transcript. 13 Any other questions? 14 So our first witness of the day is not 15 here yet, but we are going to go ahead and start 16 playing discs that we have that are statements that 17 he has made previously. But what you are going to 18 hear, and I hope he's just running late, but the 19 first witness of the day, our plans were to call 20 and he is not here. 2l So we're going to keep going. The first 22 disc that you are going to hear is labeled as Grand 23 Jury Exhibit 22. 24 (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 22 25 marked for identification.) Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 14 1 MS. ALIZADEH: And it is a disc that 2 contains Video and audio of the media statements 3 that has made in interviews and on the 4 television. 5 MS. WHIRLEY: I have no idea how loud it 6 is. 7 MS. ALIZADEH: Because is 8 identified, we're not going to shut off the audio 9 recording because these are media statements that 10 he's already made. ll Playing the recorded statements.) 12 MS. WHIRLEY: You understand we didn't 13 want his commentary. 14 (Playing the recorded statements.) 15 (End of the recording.) 16 MS. ALIZADEH: The next exhibit is Grand 17 Jury Exhibit Number 17. You have already heard 18 other statements that are contained on this disc. 19 It is a CD that has a number of witness statements 20 on it and I have a transcript that is going to be 2l passed out to you all. 22 2 3 24 MS. ALIZADEH: Yes. 25 What date was Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 15 i 1 interview? 2 MS. WHIRLEY: Okay. We have her 3 scheduled as a witness. 4 I'm talking about her 5 audio? 6 MS WHIRLEY: This is 7 We heard I 8 when did they actually interview her? 9 MS. WHIRLEY: She's going to be a witness 10 for us today. 11 MS. ALIZADEH: Are you asking when was her 12 television interview? 13 Yes, ma'am. 14 MS. ALIZADEH: I don't know, I will have 15 to find that out for you. 16 MS. WHIRLEY: We will be playing your 17 interview for her today too. We will get all of 18 those questions answered. 19 MS. ALIZADEH: Has everybody got the 20 transcript passed around yet? 2l And, again, if you will put your juror 22 number on that in the corner and keep that with the 23 materials and make notes on it if you feel you need 24 to. 25 Just so you know, this is one of three Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 16 i 1 statements that made to County Police. 3 2 So this is referred to just on the disc as 3 Interview Number 1, is that what it says? 4 MS. WHIRLEY: Yeah 5 MS. ALIZADEH: We will play Interview 6 Number 1. 7 (Playing Interview Number 1.) 8 DETECTIVE Today's date is 9 Saturday, August 9th, 2014. The time is 10 approximately 4:40 p.m. My name is Detective ll St. Louis County Police Department, 12 . This interview is in reference to an officer 13 involved shooting resulting in a fatality referenced 14 under St. Louis County Police Report Number 15 14-43984. 16 The person being interviewed is 17 date of birth, (redacted) 18 Ahh, (redacted). 19 DETECTIVE Okay. (Redacted). 2O we spoke, um, prior to this recording 21 about what you witnessed outside. Can you kinda of 22 tell me in own words what you saw? 23 Okay. I was in the 24 bedroom, and I hear an altercation outside. I 25 happens to look out the window and I see, um, the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 17 1 young guy was at the Ferguson police car on the 2 passenger window. And I see something exchanged, 3 some arms exchanged and that's when I call my 4 fiancee for her to look out the window and, um, 5 that's when I ran into the front outside, and that 6 when, um, I see, actually, it was two guys. 7 Um, when, but the guy, he constantly, he 8 just ran down in the middle of the street and the 9 officer just gets out the car and shoots. 10 I thought it was six times. So, um, when ll he, when he hit, I guess when he hit the first and 12 the second time, the guy, he kinda stopped and 13 turned around facing the officer, uh, bent down a 14 little bit curled up, and the officer let out, what, 15 three, maybe four more shots to the guy and that's 16 when he hit the ground and, um, and that was it and 17 that was the whole thing. 18 And he actually had a friend, he, I don't 19 know, I just seen him duck down, a car, um, they had 20 a car door open, it was a white car, um, he hopped 2l in, I guess those two cars left. 22 DETECTIVE Okay. 23 But that's the whole scene 24 right there, the officer still had his gun out 25 telling everybody to back?back, the ones that was Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 18 1 outside and that was that and you guys called too. 2 DETECTIVE Okay, um, these, this 3 other guy who was by the officer's car, can you 4 describe him? 5 Ahh, you know, the only thing 6 that I could say that he may have, I definitely know 7 that he was black, um, he had dreads. 8 DETECTIVE Okay. 9 But I can't even describe what 10 he had on because everything was happening so quick, 11 cause something happens here almost every weekend. 12 DETECTIVE Gotcha. 13 So, um, yeah, that's it. 14 DETECTIVE Okay. That will 15 conclude the interview. The time is approximately 16 4:43 p.m. 17 MS. ALIZADEH: Okay. So I know I talked 18 about not recording the audio statement because he 19 did state his date of birth and address, we will 20 have to deal with that and see if that can be 21 somehow redacted. For this next statement he makes, 22 I'm going to go ahead and let that be recorded 23 because he doesn't make any other statements as to, 24 you know, personal information. So I will, we'll go 25 ahead and audio record the playing of Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 19 i '8 Interview Number 2, but we will stop the a recording for 's Interview Number 3 LUMP because that does, in fact, disclose more identifying information, so. Again, this is Grand Jury Exhibit Number 17, Number 2. DETECTIVE Today's date is coxJoxUI Saturday August 9th, 20l4. The time is 9 approximately 4:45 p.m. This is Detective IO . This is a second interview with ll witness . Uh, you said you 12 had approached me, or approached me and said you had 13 something you wanted to add to your statement; is 14 that correct? 15 Yeah. Um, the only thing is 16 um, when I was at the window, when I saw the 17 altercation, the guy ran. I heard the shooting, 18 that's when I saw the cop gets out of the car just 19 when I was still 2O DETECTIVE Did you say you heard 2l shots first? 22 Yeah, I heard the shots first. 23 DETECTIVE Okay. 24 I was still at the window. 25 That's when he gotheard Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 20 1 the shots. That's what drew me to outside so I 2 could see what's going on. 3 DETECTIVE Uh-huh . 4 And, uh, I guess the guy did 5 get hit cause he turned around back towards facing 6 the cop, kinda walking back towards him slow, curled 7 up and he let go three, four shots back at him. 8 DETECTIVE Okay. Say that for me, 9 he turned around, he started what, curled over and 10 started walking ll Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. l2 DETECTIVE towards the officer? 13 Well, yeah, like he was hit 14 and he shot him three or four times and that's when 15 he hit the ground. 16 DETECTIVE Okay. So when you're 17 in the in the, just so I can clarify, when you're 18 in your bedroom window, the officer's still in the 19 car? 20 No, no, he wasn't there, he 21 hopped out then. He hopped out after when the guy 22 ran from his window. 23 DETECTIVE Okay. 24 So he ran from where the 25 altercation was. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 21 1 DETECTIVE When did you hear the 2 first two gunshots, you said you heard some 3 gunshots? 4 I was, I was in the window. 5 DETECTIVE And where was the 6 officer at that point? 7 That he was still in the car. 8 That's when I saw the altercation, whatever was 9 happening IO DETECTIVE In the car? 11 And the guys ran. 12 DETECTIVE Okay. 13 And that's when he immediately 14 hopped out the car and did his first two shots. 15 DETECTIVE Okay. 16 And that's when, okay, okay, I 17 need to go outside. 18 DETECTIVE Gotcha. 19 That's when I went outside and 20 obviously he got hit and he was curled up and he 21 kinda like walking towards him, just a little bit 22 and then he let go three or four more shots and 23 that's when he hit the ground. 24 DETECTIVE Okay. 25 But I was at the window, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 22 that's when I did see the, as soon as he ran, he 2 hops out of the car and again starts shooting. 3 DETECTIVE Okay. 4 That's it. 5 DETECTIVE Okay. That'll conclude 6 the interview. The time is 4:47 p.m. 7 (That is the end of Interview Number 2. 8 MS. ALIZADEH: All right. The next 9 statement we're going to hear is contained on 10 another disc, Grand Juror Number 24. ll (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 24 12 marked for identification.) 13 MS. ALTZADEH: Which is also a disc that 14 contains numerous recorded statements. The way that 15 my office has been getting these, the officers just 16 put numerous statements on discs. Sometimes they 17 give me discs that have statements on there that 18 have already had on another disc. 19 So don't, you might see other people's 20 statements when we put this up, but this will be the 2l third interview that the County Police did with 22 and I will pass out transcripts for 23 that. This is a longer interview. 24 And when we get ready to start the audio 25 recording of the interview, if you could then pause Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 23 1 the recording that's going on in here. 2 At this time prior to the playing of an 3 audio recorded statement of which is 4 done on August 13th, 2014. The detective 5 questioning him is Detective And 6 at this time I will ask for to pause the 7 recording of the grand jury. 8 (Recording is stopped at this time.) 9 MS. ALTZADEH: We're not recording, but 10 you can take down what's said other than the fact 11 that we would redact the identifying information 12 from your transcript at some point. 13 So we are not recording, however, we are 14 taking down the statement as it is being played. 15 Sheila, go ahead. 16 (Third recorded statement of 17 18 DETECTIVE This is Detective 19 with St. Louis County Police, uh, 20 Bureau Crimes Against Persons, uh, . Uh, 21 also present is Detective 22 St. Louis County Police, uh, Department, Crime 23 Bureau Against Persons. 24 Um, the date is 8/13/2014, it is a 25 Wednesday. The time is 10:27 a.m. The interview is Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 24 1 being conducted in the parking lot of DePaul 2 Hospital. 3 Um, the interview is in regards to St. 4 Louis County Report Number 14?43984, which is 5 classified as a homicide. 6 Uh, the person being interviewed is 7 uh, black male, date of 8 birth, (redacted). Social security number, 9 (redacted). Who resides at (redacted). 1O Uh, he has a cell phone number of ll (redacted). l2 Um, do you understand that this 13 interview is being recorded? 14 Yes, I do. 15 DETECTIVE This is being 16 recorded with your permission? l7 DETECTIVE Are you willing to 18 continue with the interview? 19 Yes. 20 DETECTIVE Okay. All right. 21 um, I know that, uh, one of our detectives 22 has spoken with you, uh, on Saturday, August 9ththe incident, in in regard to 24 what you saw. Um, and basically through, um, some 25 information we received, we we we felt that Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 25 i 1 there might be some more information that you might i 2 have. 3 So we came to reinterview you, and you 4 mentioned to us briefly upstairs that you had a 5 phone, uh, you had recorded a portion of this on 6 your phone; is that correct? 7 Correct. 8 DETECTIVE Okay. And, um, the 9 portion that you've recorded, uh, was directly after 10 the shooting; is that correct? 11 Correct. 12 DETECTIVE Okay. So, um, that, 13 this phone, this, um, Samsung phone is yours? 14 Yeah. 15 DETECTIVE And you did the 16 recording? 17 Uh?huh. 18 DETECTIVE And, um, that's you 19 talking on the video there, correct? 20 MR. Correct. 21 DETECTIVE Okay. So, um, prior 22 to recording, I had you, uh, sign a consent to 23 search form, uh, St. Louis County's, uh, consent to 24 search for your Samsung phone, uh, with video 25 related to the Ferguson incident; is that correct? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI Sepunnber23,2014 Page 26 i 1 Correct. 3 2 DETECTIVE Okay. And you did 3 that of your own free will? 4 Yes. 5 DETECTIVE Okay. And 6 understand that all we are looking for on there is 7 items related to the shooting itself? 8 Yes. 9 DETECTIVE Okay. So, um, like 10 I said, since I didn't interview the first time and ll I have this new information about the phone, if you 12 could just start from the beginning about where you 13 were at in the apartment, um, what you heard or 14 observed, um, and just kind of let, you know, retell 15 us the story, okay? l6 Okay. l7 DETECTIVE If you want, you go 18 ahead and hold this so l9 Okay. Well, um, Saturday 20 morning, a little bit after ll:30, a friend of mine 2l stops over, wakes me up. Um, I was outside with him 22 for two or three minutes and he decides to leave. 23 So I goes in the house, um, goes back into my 24 bedroom. Like another two, three minutes later I 25 hear an altercation outside. And I looks out the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 27 1 window and I see a guy, Michael Brown, at the driver 2 window of the Ferguson police car. 3 I'm not sure what was exchanged, um, 4 something was definitely going on in the windowthe sudden I see Michael Brown 6 and his friend runs away from the Ferguson police 7 car. 8 DETECTIVE Let me stop you real 9 quick. Um, while they were at the the door 10 there, or while Michael was at the door. 11 Yes. 12 DETECTIVE Um, what do you 13 think, what did you see there? 14 I, I saw some, some arms going 15 through the window. It might have been Michael 16 Brown's arm, he might have been punching a police 17 officer, or whatever. Something was going on 18 through the window. 19 DETECTIVE There's some kind of 20 movement, exchange of 21 Yeah, some kind of movement, 22 you know. 23 DETECTIVE Something going on 24 there? 25 Yeah, something was definitely Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 28 1 going on. 2 DETECTIVE Okay. Where, at 3 that time that Michael's at the window where is, uh, 4 his buddy at? 5 The the, his buddy was 6 basically in the front of the car on the other side. 7 DETECTIVE In the front Of the 8 police car? 9 Yeah, kind of, but away. 10 DETECTIVE On the passenger ll side? 12 No, no, no, just in the front. 13 In the front like, you know, he ain't even l4 DETECTIVE So with, using my 15 window, Michael Brown is to my left? 16 Yes in the window and the 17 other guy was in the front -- l8 DETECTIVE So you see him 19 probably like, away, kind 20 of almost. 21 DETECTIVE HOW far? 22 like, probably three, four, 23 maybe five feet away from the car. 24 DETECTIVE So he's five feet 25 from the front quarter panel Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 29 i 1 Yeah. i 2 DETECTIVE of the police 3 officer's vehicle? 4 Yeah. But I'm 5 DETECTIVE So towards your 6 apartment basically? 7 Yeah. 8 DETECTIVE Okay, all right. 9 So, um, so, like I said, the 10 friend wasn't even, not close as much as Michael ll Brown was. 12 DETECTIVE Okay. 13 So, uh, like I said, all of 14 the sudden they just immediately runs away from the 15 car. 16 DETECTIVE They both did? 17 They both did. 18 DETECTIVE Which direction did 19 they go? 20 Uh, the Michael Brown just 2l runs back straight. 22 DETECTIVE Behind the correct? 23 Yeah, behind the vehicle, 24 running straight down the road as the friend, he 25 just ducks behind the first car that was parked off Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 30 1 to the side, which is like a two door Monte Carlo or 2 something. 3 DETECTIVE What color was that? 4 It was white. 5 DETECTIVE Okay. 6 So, um, like I said, the 7 moment they got started running, um, I just see the 8 Ferguson cop just gets out the car and I hear the 9 first four shots, I should say. 10 DETECTIVE Okay. And -- and 11 when you hear the first four shots, let me know 12 where all three of these guy are at. Where is, 13 where is his buddy, where is his buddy, first of 14 all? 15 His buddy, his buddy was, 16 about the time he was behind, hiding behind, um, 17 behind the trunk of the car, of the two door white 18 Monte Carlo. 19 DETECTIVE So, so that's where 20 he's at? 21 Yeah. 22 DETECTIVE Okay. Where's -- 23 Like going around. 24 DETECTIVE the police 25 officer at? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 31 The police officer like, just 2 getting out of the car. 3 DETECTIVE Okay. 4 Like, just getting out the car 5 and Michael Brown is already probably like 6 25 feet 7 DETECTIVE Down the road? 8 down the road. 9 DETECTIVE Okay. 10 So, um, like I said, he hops ll out the car, um, the first three, four shots that I 12 noticed that was taken, I, that's when I yelled out 13 to my fiancee, let's go outside cause this, um, 14 somebody, uh, the officer is shooting at somebody. l5 DETECTIVE Okay. Just hold on 16 real quick. When those first four shots are being 17 taken, where's the officer shooting from and which 18 direction is Michael Brown facing? 19 Michael Brown is facing away 20 from him. 21 DETECTIVE SO he's still 22 running? 23 Yeah, he, uh, he still 24 DETECTIVE With his back to the 25 officer? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 32 yeah, with his back to the 2 officer. 3 DETECTIVE Okay. 4 And the officer is basically, 5 um um, when, like I say, when he's getting out of 6 his car, he is basically walking towards the back as 7 he's shooting. 8 DETECTIVE Okay. SO -- 9 And I see the friend, I'm 10 still in the window. ll DETECTIVE Okay. 12 And I see his friend, uh, like 13 I say, he's ducking for his life, for he runs behind 14 the trunk of the car. But that car, that passenger 15 door was open. 16 DETECTIVE Uh?huh. l7 You know, so I see, you know, 18 kind of hops in after, um l9 DETECTIVE Did he hop in the 20 car? 2l I, obviously, he did. Um, 22 obviously he did because, like I said, um, like the 23 first four shots, the officer was taking big steps 24 going past his car. When DETECTIVE Uh-huh. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 33 so that's why I noticed 2 that he's not shooting for the other guy because he 3 walked past the white car, shooting. 4 DETECTIVE But did, but -- but 5 did, did he, what I'm saying though, did you see him 6 get inside the car? 7 Yeah, he did. 8 DETECTIVE He did get inside 9 the car? 10 He did, he did, but not like ll that, like as far as like, um, that was his car, 12 like he just got out of it or somethinghis buddy with the dreadlocks. 15 Yeah, um l6 DETECTIVE He got into the car, 17 the white Monte Carlo? l8 Yeah, the white Monte Carlo 19 cause the door was open or whatever cause uh 20 DETECTIVE Didn't it pull Off? 2l Um, I think it pulled off. 22 DETECTIVE With him in it? 23 After after when, um, uh, 24 when a Ferguson, as a matter of fact, I think it's, 25 it might have been on my phone cause I seen a white Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 34 I car on my phone, but I didn't 2 DETECTIVE Okay. 3 I can't see if it's, um 4 DETECTIVE All right. 80, but 5 you saw this guy get into the car? 6 Yeah, I did see that. 7 DETECTIVE Okay. 8 Because the door was open and, 9 I guess, after when he got done shooting, I guess IO whoever that was driving told him, let's go cause 11 he's afraid for his life I2 DETECTIVE Okay. 13 I'm sure of that, I'm sure 14 of that. 15 DETECTIVE Okay, all right. So 16 you're positive left in 17 that car? 18 Yeah. 19 DETECTIVE Okay, all right. SO 20 you're positive left in 21 that car? 22 Yeah. 23 DETECTIVE Okay, all right. 24 Let's go back to the officer and Michael's running 25 down. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 35 i I Yes. i 2 DETECTIVE The officer has 3 exited his vehicle? 4 Yeah, and 5 DETECTIVE He was, and so, um, 6 you said Michael was like 25 feet down the road 7 Yeah, already. 8 DETECTIVE his back is to 9 the officer 10 And, um ll DETECTIVE You are, uh 12 I'm, I'm, I'm l3 DETECTIVE You're still on the 14 porch, right? Or on the balcony? 15 Yeah, when it, after when he 16 did the first shot, that's when I'm, um, came 17 outside. That's when I'm outside now, but when I 18 came outside, he was already hitDETECTIVE Okay. Is, so, I'm 2l sorry, I I may be going too fast here, but, um, 22 so when you hear the initial shot, you're upstairs. 23 Yeah, in the bedroom. 24 DETECTIVE Okay. 25 First floor, or three. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 36 i DETECTIVE Okay. SO then, a 2 okay, so you heard a shot and then you went outside? 3 And then I went outside. 4 DETECTIVE And that's where you 5 saw them kind of doing the 6 That's when the, no, no, um, 7 when I saw the first four shots, that's when I 8 yelled out, let's go outside. When I, when I 9 DETECTIVE I'm sorry, hold on 10 just one second. I need to back up just a little ll bit because had you heard a shot before you saw them 12 tussling in the car? 13 No, no, I heard an 14 altercation. 15 DETECTIVE Okay. You're, 16 that's when you heard that brought you outside 17 initially? 18 No, uh, what brought me 19 outside was the gunshots. 2O DETECTIVE Okay. I'm sorry, 2l I'm, I'm trying to be very clear on this 22 All right, I gotcha. 23 DETECTIVE is why, which is 24 why I'm, I'm having, so the very first thing that 25 drew your attention was what? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 37 1 The altercation. 2 DETECTIVE Okay. 3 From hearing stuff. 4 DETECTIVE Okay. So you heard 5 them arguing? 6 Yeah. 7 DETECTIVE Or some kind of 8 Yeah. 9 DETECTIVE exchange of 10 words. ll Yeah, yeah, yeah. l2 DETECTIVE is what you hear? 13 What is first thing that you see? 14 Um, a guy at the window doing 15 something, something. 16 DETECTIVE Okay. Had you heard 17 any gunshots at that point? 18 No, I didn't. No, I didn't. 19 DETECTIVE Okay. 2O But a lot of people saying 21 that they heard a gunshot starting from the inside, 22 but like I said 23 DETECTIVE But you didn't hear 24 that? 25 I, I didn't hear that. I Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 38 I mean, I might heard it if I was outside already. 2 DETECTIVE Okay. 3 But it probably 4 DETECTIVE I understand. What 5 I'm trying to see 6 I gotcha. 7 DETECTIVE what brought you 8 outside. 9 I gotcha, I gotcha. IO DETECTIVE So, so let's skip ll forward to the part where, cause we know where he, 12 we know where the friend was at. We know where he 13 went. l4 Yeah. 15 DETECTIVE We know, um, so what 16 I wanna take you back to is to the start the officer 17 gets out of the vehicle. 18 Uh-huh. l9 DETECTIVE And starts to go 20 towards the back, Michael is running down the road. 2l Yeah. 22 DETECTIVE And what is going on 23 there? 24 Uh, like I said, by the time I 25 got outside, so either Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 39 i DETECTIVE SO -- a 2 he must have hit from those 3 first three or four shots. 4 DETECTIVE But that's what I 5 want to talk to you about. 6 Right. 7 DETECTIVE The the first 8 four shots that you're talking about? 9 Uh-huh. lO DETECTIVE I want to be very 11 clear on where 12 Uh?huh. 13 DETECTIVE the officer was 14 at. 15 Yeah, um, like I said, he -- 16 he was, he was probably just passing the end of his 17 truck. 18 DETECTIVE Oh, so by the rear 19 bumper? 2O Yeah. 21 DETECTIVE Driver side quarter 22 panel area? 23 Yeah. 24 DETECTIVE Okay. 25 Yeah Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 40 1 DETECTIVE Okay. So he, uh 2 you know, has he already fired or he starts firing 3 then? 4 Nah, he he been shot, he 5 been fired, he had been fired like when he got 6 DETECTIVE So from the time 7 he been fired. 8 DETECTIVE SO -- 9 But like, so when DETECTIVE He start firing as 12 soon as he got 13 Yeah, cause l4 DETECTIVE -- out. 15 the, that's how I noticed 16 that, um, uh, that he kept shooting, um, walking 17 past the white car where his friend was. 18 DETECTIVE Okay, okay. I just 19 want to make sure that 20 So the four or four shots 2l DETECTIVE So the the second 22 he exited he started firing at Michael who was 23 running away? 24 Yeah, so it was like pow, pow, 25 pow, pow. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 41 DETECTIVE Okay. 2 like take time and he was 3 also taking big steps stepping out the car, and like 4 I said 5 DETECTIVE Okay. 6 and I seen him shooting as 7 he was walking. 8 DETECTIVE Was he yelling 9 anything? 10 Uh, yeah, he he ll DETECTIVE I don't want you 12 speculating. 13 Yeah, yeah, I he l4 DETECTIVE Was, I mean, was he 15 yelling anything at all? And, uh, even if you can't 16 think 17 You know, I can't even 18 remember I can't even remember that. 19 DETECTIVE You don't know? 20 I can't say, yeah. 21 DETECTIVE Okay. 22 I can't even remember. 23 DETECTIVE Okay. 24 Uh?huh. 25 DETECTIVE So, um, see as he's FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 42 1 running and he's taken, taken his four shots, he is 2 by the rear bumper. 3 Uh-huh. 4 DETECTIVE What is Michael 5 doing, how is he reacting? 6 Um, like I said, about the 7 time I got outside after, when I told my fiancee 8 let's go outside. From the first shots, I goes 9 outside and that's when I notice that, obviously, 10 he's been hit because now he's facing the cop. ll DETECTIVE Okay. Now where are 12 you at, though? 13 Now I'm outside. 14 DETECTIVE All right. do 15 you have a map or no? Okay. You know where the, 16 you know how you're, you're here near this part, 17 right? Are you in that horseshoe section? 18 Yeah, exactly. 19 DETECTIVE Okay. So your 20 apartment's where. 21 Be about probably like, 22 directly in the middle. 23 DETECTIVE Centered in there? 24 Yeah. 25 DETECTIVE Okay. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 43 1 And this is the street, so 2 DETECTIVE And this is about, 3 uh, see, see Michael was down here, right? And the 4 officer's truck was about here or so, or further up? 5 Yeah. 6 DETECTIVE Show me. 7 Let me see, it just about 8 DETECTIVE Just like, end Of 9 each part of the drive. 10 Right, right, um, it's kind of ll like, start over and if this is the street. 12 DETECTIVE Right. 13 And my window right -- l4 DETECTIVE But you -- 15 here and, uh, his vehicle 16 is probably right here. Uh, yeah, he is probably 17 about right here. 18 DETECTIVE That's where Mike's 19 at? 20 Yeah. 21 DETECTIVE Okay. Now, show me 22 where -- 24 DETECTIVE where that Monte 25 Carlo was at? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 44 yeah, it was probably about 2 right here. It was two cars actually, a white one 3 and a purple one. 4 DETECTIVE Okay. 5 So, um, after when I seen 6 that 7 DETECTIVE Oh, here you go. 8 That's the map of the area. 9 Oh, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. IO DETECTIVE SO -- ll Yeah, so yeah. 12 DETECTIVE -- is this your l3 building right here? 14 Um, it is probably, I don't 15 know, the shape's kind of weird. Yeah, I think that 16 is it. 17 DETECTIVE Okay. l8 Okay. So, um, so my window 19 right there then, um, yeah, so the car must have 20 been 2l DETECTIVE Car right there? 22 right there and he must of, 23 his body must have been about right there. 24 DETECTIVE Okay. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 45 i DETECTIVE so, all right, so i 2 And, um 3 DETECTIVE -- by that time 4 where are you standing watching this? 5 Um 6 DETECTIVE After the first four 7 shots had been fired, where are you at? 8 I'm outside 9 DETECTIVE Where? lO after the first four, on ll my, um, balcony, on my balcony. l2 DETECTIVE You're on the 13 balcony? l4 Yeah. So, uh? 15 DETECTIVE And did you go 16 downstairs though? 17 Uh, I didn't go downstairs, 18 this is, this was after the tape is up and stuff. 19 DETECTIVE Okay. So you never 20 went downstairs? 2l I never went downstairs until 22 afterwards. 23 DETECTIVE Okay, okay. So 24 you're outside now when, after he's fired these 25 first four shots? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 46 i I Yeah. 2 DETECTIVE Okay. Tell me what 3 happens then? 4 Um, when I steps outside, um, 5 the guy, obviously, um, he's been hit, cause he 6 curls up and I, but now he he's facing the 7 Ferguson, the Ferguson officer and, um 8 DETECTIVE So when you describe 9 him curling up, show me? 10 Um, he's uh, he's, like I ll said, like he's been hit in the stomach. l2 DETECTIVE He's bent over? 13 Yeah, kind of like l4 DETECTIVE At the waist? 15 yeah, like he's about to 16 fall and fall directly l7 DETECTIVE Okay. l8 on the ground. And, um, 19 but I see him takes like one or two steps, kind of 20 like I said, towards him, you know 21 DETECTIVE NOW -- 22 now I don't know if that 23 was a help sign, just a little bit. 24 DETECTIVE Okay. 25 Just a little bit. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 47 1 DETECTIVE Well, tell me this. 2 Uh?huh. 3 DETECTIVE Everybody's 4 describing his hands being up. 5 You know what, that now, 6 that's like because when, when, okay. From where my 7 balcony is, it's another building right there. Um, 8 he, where his blood spill at, where he got shot at, 9 he ran past that. 10 DETECTIVE Uh?huh. ll Before he, you know got that 12 l3 DETECTIVE How'd he end up 14 coming back? 15 Yeah, that's why the, that's, 16 I was just, uh, what I'm, what I'm saying, like I 17 said, he must have got hit and he, he probably had 18 his hands up when he got hit. 19 DETECTIVE Oh, so you're saying 20 that area 2l That's why everybody 22 DETECTIVE that area's out 23 24 keep saying that. 25 DETECTIVE -- Of View? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 48 Yeah, uh, quite uh, out of 2 View, but he ran past the, uh, where he got shot at. 3 DETECTIVE Oh, so you're saying 4 that area 5 That's why everybody 6 DETECTIVE that area's out 7 8 keep saying that. 9 DETECTIVE Okay. So the, the 10 part of the area where he got shot with those four? ll Yeah, he he, yeah. Where 12 he died at, he ran past that spot. 13 DETECTIVE And came back to 14 that spot? 15 So obviously, I think when he 16 got hit, that's when he probably raised his hands 17 up, but he's then curled up l8 DETECTIVE Yeah. 19 just walking, took a couple 20 steps back towards him, he probably had one hand up, 2l but he had his hands down here and the officer let 22 out about four more shots and he hit the ground just 23 like how he's laying. 24 DETECTIVE So you see him bent Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 49 i 1 Yeah, just like that. i 2 DETECTIVE What I'm saying 3 though is after he's bent over there is another four 4 shots. 5 Yeah, yeah, another four or 6 three shots just like that. And everybody saying 7 like he was already down and the officer let out a 8 shot. I don't know, but I know what I saw, you 9 know, before he hit the ground, he let out four more 10 shots. I don't know, but I know what I saw. So ll DETECTIVE Okay. l2 before he hit the ground, 13 he let off four more shots. l4 DETECTIVE Okay. 15 So I can't remember l6 DETECTIVE And where he l7 if he said freeze or, or, 18 or said something before he let out the last ones, 19 but I know when he 2O DETECTIVE Did you hear Michael 2l say anything before those last four 22 No, I didn't, huh?uh. 23 DETECTIVE Okay. 24 No. 25 DETECTIVE So, where he, where Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 50 he was at in the street, is that where he fell? The 2 the, like, nobody moved him? 3 No, ain't nobody moved him or 4 nothing. 5 DETECTIVE Okay. 6 Nothing so, uh 7 DETECTIVE Nobody touched his 8 body? 9 Nobody touched him, uh, after, 10 right after that, the officer just stood over it, ll like 5 feet away from him with his gun on his 12 walkie?talkie thing. 13 DETECTIVE Okay. l4 And called the first two or 15 whatever. l6 DETECTIVE Okay. l7 And that was it. 18 DETECTIVE All right. Is there 19 anything that I haven't asked you or that you feel 20 you need to clarify? 2l Uh, no, that's everything 22 really. Everything that I saw. 23 DETECTIVE Okay. 24 Everything I saw. 25 DETECTIVE All right. Um, it's Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 51 1 uh, 10:43. We're going to go ahead and conclude the 2 interview. 3 (This is the end of the interview 4 Number 3.) 5 MS. ALIZADEH: Okay. We're recording now 6 and we've just finished playing the third statement 7 of that is contained on Grand Jury 8 Exhibit 24. 9 So the final statement of 10 shouldn't say final statement, but the fourth ll statement that we have is a recorded statement that 12 was done by the FBI and I just received the disc of 13 this last night, and so we do not have a transcript 14 of this. 15 So I will ask the court reporter to stop 16 the recording as we begin to play the audio 17 recording of by the FBI because of the 18 identifying information, but I will ask you, 19 if you will as best you can take down the statement 20 and at a later date there is a transcript being 2l prepared of this, so I will get that to you as soon 22 as I can get that, but I do not have a transcript to 23 pass out to you, the grand jurors, okay. 24 So I'm going to give it to Sheila to put 25 in the computer and at this time it is 9:50 a.m. If Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 52 1 you can pause the recording and we will begin 2 playing the fourth statement of 3 So we are not recording, but the court 4 reporter is taking down what's being said. Sheila 5 is going to cue up the statement. 6 (This is the recorded statement of 7 Number 4. 8 All right. Today is 9 September 17th, 2014, at approximately le6 p.m. We 10 are here today at the FBI St. Louis Building, 2222 ll Market Street. This is Special Agent 12 with USA and the other trial attorney 13 And we are here to interview, and if you 14 could state your name? 15 16 All right. Now, I 17 just want to explain to you, I know that, I believe, 18 St. Louis County have spoken with you already? 19 Yes. 20 Okay. I will explain a 2l little bit of a difference of our investigation 22 here. 23 Uh-huh. 24 They're doing a homicide 25 investigation, we are doing a civil rights Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 53 1 violation. 2 Okay. 3 If this officer acted outside 4 of his authority, okay? 5 Okay. 6 And so you're here as a 7 witness voluntary. You, um, you are free if you 8 don't, you can end it at any time, but you are here 9 and you are okay? 10 Yes. ll (lnaudible) l2 Yes. 13 Okay. And you are okay with 14 us recording it? 15 Yes, ma'am. 16 Okay. So before we get into 17 the specifics, can I get some basic info from you? 18 Uh-huh. 19 Do you have a middle name. 20 Yes 21 Okay. Like 22 Yes. 23 Okay. And what's your date 24 of birth? 25 (redacted) Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 54 1 (redacted) 2 Yes. 3 Social security number? 4 (redacted) 5 Can you give me your address? 6 (redacted) 7 Okay. And is there a good 8 number if we need to contact you again? 9 Yes. (redacted) 10 Before we get started, do you ll have any questions for any of us? 12 No, not at the moment. 13 Okay. 14 MS. So I just want to talk a little 15 bit more about coming in. 16 Uh?huh. 17 MS. I just wanted, um, just some 18 preliminary things. 19 Uh?huh. 20 MS. We want to let you know that it 21 is a crime to lie to the FBI federal agents. 22 MS. Okay. I don't necessarily 23 think that you're going to, but we like to inform 24 everyone of that. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 55 i MS. And like just said, if a 2 at any point during the interview you don't want to, 3 you don't want to talk any more, feel free to leave. 4 It is voluntary, I know you came through security 5 and all, you can feel free to say I don't want to 6 talk any more, okay? And you're shaking your head 7 yes. 8 Yes. 9 MS. It is an oral recording, so all 10 your answers need to be out loud ll Yes. 12 MS. So which brings to my next 13 point, if you start nodding or whatever. l4 I gotcha. 15 MS. And it is totally fine if you 16 nod, we will just try and correct you. 17 I gotchaquestion and 19 you answer, we're going to assume you understood the 20 question. So if at any point one of us asked a 2l question that says to you convoluted or confusing, 22 let us know. 23 Okay. 24 MS. Our intent is not to confuse 25 you Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 56 i 1 Okay. a 2 MS. Our intent answer a certain way. 4 Okay. 5 MS. So if you think we are trying certain direction we are not. 7 Make sure that you answer, what we want is the 8 truth. What we want to do is figure out what 9 happened. 10 So, like I said, our intent is not to lead 11 you in any one direction or the other. 12 All right. 13 MS. If we state something, it is 14 not the way you told us or we mischaracterize, then 15 let us know. 16 Okay, all right, not a 17 problem. 18 Okay. If you want to take us 19 through what you were doing on August 9th, 2014. 20 Um, I was at home. I actually 21 just coming back from, um, going out to eat with my 22 family. 23 Okay. 24 And um, come back home about 25 9:00 that morning. We all takes a nap. My fiancee Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 57 1 wakes up and she tells me a friend is knocking at my 2 door. 3 wakes up, which is now 11:00. He comes 4 and, um, 1 goes outside for a few minutes with him 5 outside or whatever. And he, we went outside for 6 not long, two, three, four or five minutes. So 1 7 happen to go back in, he leaves. 8 It is getting what, about 11:45 now, um, I 9 was about to take a nap, and I hear an altercation 10 outside. 11 So 1 looks outside and, um, I see like 12 some kind of tussling going on in the window. 13 Really not sure if, um, if Mike Brown was punching 14 on him or if the officer was grabbing on him, but 15 something was going on through the window, it just 16 didn't look right. So 1 glued my eyes to it. 17 And all of the sudden, um, I see, I also 18 see his friend, his friend. Um, he was, he was on 19 the side of the car, he was on the front bumper on 20 the passenger side, maybe 4, 5 feet away from him. 21 And all of the sudden, like I said, they just takes 22 off running. 23 And when they takes off running, I see his 24 friend, he runs behind a two door white car. He's 25 ducking down behind the trunk of the car looking at Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 58 the officer because he just immediately gets out of 2 his vehicle and just started shooting at Mike Brown. 3 Because he runs down, straight down the middle of 4 the road. 5 And, um, when his friend ran behind the 6 trunk of the car, he was looking at the officer 7 thinking that the officer might cut off and walk to 8 him and shoot him, but obviously, he is just taking 9 like, you know, large steps in a shooting position, 10 shooting directly at Mike Brown, and he walked past ll his friend. 12 So at that moment right there, that just 13 gave me enough time to run outside because like 1 14 said, I thought that he was going for his friend 15 too, so I didn't want to miss that. So that was my 16 time when he walked past that was my time to run 17 outside. 18 By the time 1 gets to the door, I notice 19 forgot my phone in the bedroom. So I go back, grab 20 my phone and then 1 goes back to the front door, 2l which it didn't take long, just seconds. 22 So, um, but about the time I gets outside, 23 I see Mike Brown, he's now facing the officer, kind 24 of, he bent down like he was hit in the stomach. He 25 had both arms wrapped around his stomach and he's Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 59 i 1 bent down like he was going down. i 2 So like I said, I thought he was already 3 shot. And, um, before he was going down, the 4 officer lets out four or five more shots. And when 5 he hit the ground, you know, that's when I see blood 6 roll over or whatever. 7 And, um, the next closest I seen the 8 officer, when he hit the ground, the officer, he was 9 at least about 4 or 5 feet away from his body now on 10 his walkie?talkie, still have his gun all over him 11 making his call in. And, um, and that's when my 12 phone started recording maybe like two minutes right 13 after when the first two officers come in. 14 Okay. l5 So that my phone cuts on and I 16 started recording. 17 Do you have that with you? 18 Uh, yes, I do. 19 Okay. Um, is it out front. 20 Yeah. 21 Okay. I'll go grab it real 22 quick. 23 Okay. 24 What I want you to do for me, 25 can you circle where your apartment, or kind of make Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 60 1 an where your apartment is. If this is West 2 Florissant and here is Canfield. 3 Oh, okay. So that means, 4 apartment building is this one right here. 5 Okay. Where is 6 You know what, um, no, it 7 actually be right here, this white one, this second 8 one. 9 White one? 10 Yeah. ll Okay. And where in that 12 building is your apartment? 13 The second floor. 14 Second floor. Okay, go 15 ahead. Just so it is the second floor. Okay. So I 16 want to go over this in a little bit of detail with 17 you. 18 Okay. 19 So oh, thank you. This is 20 your cell phone. 2l Okay. 22 You said you were in your 23 bedroom, correct? 24 Yes. 25 About to take a nap? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 61 1 Uh?huh. 2 And you hear a altercation, 3 what did you hear? 4 Um, just some kind of ruffling 5 going on, I'm not even sure like what words exactly, 6 but it is kind of ruffling, you know. 7 Okay. And when you said you 8 looked out the window and saw it, where was the car? 9 The vehicle was over here, the 10 vehicle was 11 You want to draw like a 12 vehicle? 13 Let me see, there was 14 something right here. His vehicle was in the middle 15 of the street sideways. 16 Sideways. l7 Diagonal. 18 Diagonal. And where was the 19 front of the car? 20 Uh, what, the police vehicle? 21 Uh?huh, yeah. 22 That's the front of the 23 vehicle was like facing, like facing my apartment. 24 Okay. 25 Diagonal like. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 62 Okay. 2 Like he was coming from this 3 way basically. 4 Okay. So, let me see. So it 5 was facing, let's see, let's go like that, is that 6 fair? 7 Yeah. 8 Okay. So facing this way. 9 Could you see in the front, you said you couldn't lO tell whether or not he was punching him or whether ll the officer l2 Right, through the window. 13 So could you see them? 14 Yeah, I could see them. 15 So your View was not 16 obstructed l7 Yeah, I could see them 18 clearly. l9 Did you know it was an 20 officer when you saw it or you just saw two people? 2l No, I knew it was an officer. 22 Okay. 23 You know, still inside of his 24 vehicle and somebody outside the vehicle doing some 25 kind of tussling. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 63 Okay. And then you saw his 2 friend who we know, did you know either Mike 3 Brown 4 No, no, but I know I seen Mike 5 Brown, uh, in the neighborhood. 6 All right. 7 So, I don't know him. 8 Okay. 9 MR Where did you see him? 10 Just walking with like another ll little group of people, whatever, just up and down 12 the street over there or something. 13 MR. Did you ever have occasion 14 to talk to him? 15 Huh?uh, no, I just, I remember 16 faces, so. 17 MS. Do you know the other people he 18 would be walking in the group with? 19 Huh?uh, no. 20 Do you remember him because 2l now of all the press or also because of his size, 22 his height? 23 Do I remember his size? 24 Right. Did you take 25 particular notice of him or? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 64 1 No, just like his clothes and, 2 um, that he was kind of like a buffer guy, because I 3 know I'm slim. 4 Uh?huh. 5 So, um, I just knew he was 6 kind of a little bit buffer, you know. 7 Okay. 8 Kind of a little chubby like, 9 so 10 Okay. So you see tussling ll and at this point when you see the two, whether, 12 some some sort of altercation. 13 Uh?huh. 14 At what point do you notice 15 his friend, Dorian? 16 Um, his friend Dorian, he was 17 clear, I could see him too. Like I said, he was in 18 front of the passenger side vehicle, not too close, 19 like 4 feet away or whatever. 2O Uh?huh. 2l So, yeah, at that time that's 22 when I looked out the window and see that going on. 23 Okay. 24 While his friend was still in 25 the front and was down by the window. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 65 i Did you hear anything? You a 2 said you heard tussling. 3 Yeah, just tussling, you know, 4 not even a certain word, not even a certain word. 5 Okay. 6 MR. Did you hear voices? 7 Yeah. 8 MR. One voice or two? 9 Um, maybe two. Like I said, I 10 just, just like some real tussling though. Even ll thought I was hearing lots of noises, maybe like 12 hitting the door, you know. Something that just got 13 my attention, but not certain words. 14 How much, you said you saw 15 them. 16 Uh?huh. 17 Did you see who necessarily 18 was the initiator? Could you see where their bodies 19 were positioned? 20 Um, was positioned? Um, let 2l me see, uh, his friend, he was facing the officer's 22 vehicle. 23 Okay. 24 Where he was standing. Like I 25 said, Mike Brown was definitely standing on the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 66 i driver's side window. i 2 Okay. 3 You know, facing the officer. 4 Okay. And you're saying they 5 were as far as him and the officer. 6 Uh-huh. 7 You said they are tussling, 8 how close, could you see how close in contact they 9 were? 10 Um, there was definitely close ll enough. Um, there was definitely close enough so, I 12 just figured that Mike Brown, he could, I don't 13 think that he was to like real up on the passenger l4 door, it was just a little bit of space and I could 15 just see something going on roughly through the 16 window. 17 MS. And just because the recording, 18 you are kind of making like a fist punching back and I9 forth motions; is that right? 20 Uh?huh. 2l MS. Yes? You say uh?huh. 22 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, just 23 yeah. 24 MS. Okay. So what I'm going to ask 25 you, you know, uh, the cell phone video that you Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 67 gave to St. Louis County, is that the same cell 2 phone video that you referred to before that is on 3 your phone? 4 Yeah, um, the one I have when 5 he walked off and came back into the picture, the 6 same one, yes. 7 MS. So in that video, the very 8 first thing that you say, you are kind of, you 9 remember you are talking while you are videoing? lO Uh?huh. ll MS. Okay. So one of the very first 12 things that you say, that you said that the guy, the 13 black guy just ranpunching on it. 15 Yeah. 16 MS. You said, the dude ran on the 17 side, um, you talking about the other one ran to the 18 Monte Carlo, then he went back to the first guy. 19 You said, the dude was all up in his car, you said 20 up in his shit punching on him. 2l Yeah, that's what I assume 22 because, um, younger people like that, I think that, 23 you know, that don't want to go to jail, you know, 24 just being young. So, you know, I assume a person 25 like that will be punching an officer to get away or Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 68 1 something like that. 2 MS. Okay. 3 So I automatically assume that 4 was going on. 5 MS. And that's fine, I just want to 6 get to what you observed. 7 Yeah. 8 MS. So you saw this punching motion 9 like you just made; is that correct? 10 Yeah, but I mean, that's not 11 exactly what I saw, that is just, you know because I 12 just seen arms, you know, going through the windows. 13 MS. Okay. l4 The officer maybe had his arm. 15 MS. You said the officer maybe, 16 right? 17 The officer maybe, yeah, yeah, 18 it's a big maybe. 19 MS. Okay. So we are 100% right, 20 when you?? you're letting us know when you're 21 assuming versus what you saw, and that's exactly 22 what we want you to do. But I'm going to try just 23 to get a little detail. If you don't know something 24 or don't remember, that's perfectly acceptable. 25 Okay. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 69 i 1 MS. I don't want you to think that, i 2 you know, I'm trying to get you to say something you 3 don't know. But I'm just trying to because I wasn't 4 there to understand what you saw. So when you first 5 give your interview to St. Louis County you said you 6 saw arms exchanged. What do you mean by that? 7 Um, um, I saw the officer's 8 arms moving also and I saw Mike Brown's arms moving 9 also. 10 MS. Okay. You saw Mike Brown's ll arms go through the window. 12 Yeah, obviously, it was. 13 MS. Okay. I know you said 14 obviously, I want to ask to make sure I understand, 15 okay. Did you actually when you use the expression, 16 you saw the dude was all shit, did Mike Brown, did you see Mike Brown 18 actually approach the car? 19 No, that's, that's the part 20 that I just missed. 21 MS. Okaythe time you saw, you saw 24 Mike Brown at the driver's side of the car with his 25 arms through the window; is that correct? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 70 1 Yeah. 2 MS. Okay. 3 MR. You just then, you also, 4 you've done the kind of moving your arms the way you 5 saw Mike Brown do. 6 Uh-huh. 7 MR. You also saw a police 8 officer when you are talking about some arms 9 exchanged, you saw the police officer's arms? 10 Yeah, it just kind of looked ll like, it just kind of looked like, like I said, if 12 he's, an officer is in the car, I could just see his 13 arms. 14 MR. You have your arm bent to 15 kind of a 90 degree angle in front of you? 16 Yeah. So, yeah, if the window 17 is right here, so I mean, that's, you know, that?? 18 that's what I seen and I could see Mike Brown. You 19 know, it just, you know, he could be doing anything, 20 I'm not even saying punching. Just something 2l through the window right there. 22 MR. Just so I'm clear for the 23 tape, did you have, you are talking about the police 24 officer's arms, he is kind of turning and has his 25 arm in front of him in kind of a Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 71 1 Like this moving. 2 MR. Okay. Is that fair the way 3 you describe? 4 Yeah, yeah. 5 MR. Okay. And you have, when 6 you are describing Mike Brown's, you have his arms 7 going back and forth coming 8 Yeah, just back and forth, 9 just back and forth, tussling. 10 I want to impress upon you 11 something. 12 Uh?huh. 13 That we have observed and it 14 is throughout the investigation because I feel like 15 you might be a little bit cautious in your, careful 16 with your words in the sense of, we are aware on, 17 the pressure that exist. Are you still living in 18 Canfield? 19 Yes. 20 So, and I'm sure this is 2l still a big deal. This is going to be a big deal 22 for a very, very long time. 23 Yes, it is, definitely. 24 And you have been on the 25 news, right? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 72 1 Uh?huh. 2 And you have people come up 3 to you and talk to you about that, people up in the 4 community? 5 Yeah, they, yeah, they seen 6 me, they say they seen me and stuff like that. 7 Okay. I also want you to 8 understand you talking to us today, we don't go tell 9 people we talk to you. It is completely 1O confidential. ll Uh?huh. 12 We take every precaution to 13 protect your information. So this is not going to 14 be out in the community, this is not going to be 15 told, they're not go to say you snitched or you 16 didn't fight for Mike Brown enough. 17 We need 100 percent honesty and clarity, l8 and we are not going to say, we are not on one side 19 of the other, you know, this isn't for for the 20 search for the truth, okay? 21 Right. 22 So I want you to be confident 23 that you can trust us and trust us to say that we're 24 not going to make, we are not going to skew your 25 testimony, okay? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 73 1 Okay. 2 This is it, okay? 3 Okay. 4 This is what it is. 5 I understand. Just so you 6 guys know, I am very, very, nervous about everything 7 since, since that day to now. 8 Okay. 9 Just to let you guys know. 10 And that's completely normal to 11 be nervous, nervous to talk to us, nervous in 12 general. Is there anything in particular that you 13 are nervous about more so than others? 14 Um, I'm, um, I have been, I've 15 just been just kind of scared, just kind of scared. 16 Especially, you know, with the interviews. I 17 stopped doing the interviews, I stopped after I did 18 one with 19 MS. Okay. 2O on a Friday. After that I 21 felt sick, I started worrying. 22 MR. Why is that? 23 I don't know, I just started 24 something, like something may happen, you know. I 25 started thinking about, wait a minute, I done did Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 74 quite a few interviews and I don't have a lawyer and 2 why do everybody else have lawyers when they put out 3 the very first interview, you know. 4 I Googled my name and I seen a lot of 5 stuff and I came across something, uh, that somebody 6 put, I seen my picture, and it said like snitches 7 get stitches, and then under it says something about 8 people keep talking, they are going to get 9 you know, we are going to do something to you. 10 MR. What's that. ll I don't know. It's spelled 12 You know, I'm not even sure what that 13 is, but I've just been nervous and scared, and I 14 have been letting everybody know about my time in 15 and where I'm going and stuff like that. 16 So, uh, but like I said, until this day, 17 but it has been like two weeks, two, three weeks 18 now, you know, no reporters at my house or nothing, 19 no calls. You know, I'm kind of, I'm still in my 20 regular day and going to work every day, taking care 2l of my family and stuff, doing the same thing every 22 day. I don't go nowhere, but I come home, you know, 23 so. 24 But I'm keeping it cool, but the ones like 25 at work, I I tell them because I don't show it Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 75 i 1 neither. Like when I be at work, I have a smile on i 2 my face all the time, you know, I don't show it 3 until they, I seen you on TV and want to talk about 4 it and stuff like that. And I tell them how I feel, 5 you know. So I'm just staying cool though, you 6 know. 7 Okay. 8 But very nervous. 9 This is the first time you 10 are talking to us and we can treat that as a first 11 time. 12 Uh?huhfederal witness so, and with that comes certain 15 intentions. So we want to make sure you are 16 comfortable. 17 So, I mean, we would like to offer you 18 water, you are more than entitled to, if you want to 19 get up and take and walk around and if that makes 20 you feel more comfortable, but. 21 I'm fine right now. 22 MS. Yeah, and we want you to know, 23 if at any point someone does intimidates you or let 24 me be specific, to intimidates you or scares you or 25 you feel somehow more nervous than general Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 76 i 1 nervousness, you certainly should, um, call i 2 I know you have her number here at the FBI. Because 3 witness information is something apart from 4 everything else. It could be a crime. 5 So we are trying to be specific, 6 okay, not some (inaudible) 7 Okay. 8 MS. General nervousness is normal, 9 especially like in (inaudible). If there is 10 anything in particular that makes you nervous at 11 all, we want to know that. So is there anything in 12 particular or just a general feeling from Goggling 13 yourself? 14 A Um, that, um, one moment, um, at the time 15 when the audio came out about the shooting, let me 16 see, like a week and a half earlier before that I 17 stopped doing interviews, I didn't receive no calls, 18 I was fine. I could go home and enjoy. 19 So when that came out, I started 20 getting calls again, they was at my house while I 21 was at work trying to come up to my job. 22 MR. And who were they that you 23 are referring to? 24 The reporters, news reporter. 25 MR. Uh?huh. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 77 And um, let's see, maybe the same day I knew it was on the tube that when it LUMP aired on the news and stuff like that, it was on a Tuesday or a Wednesday. I had to go pick up my fiancee about 9:30 that night to leave out of my house to go pick her up. I know that day I received a call from a reporter at six something. And another call at seven or eight something and then I 9 got a text like just before 9:00little son's car seat ll in the car. So I went outside to go and do that and 12 as soon as, right when I gets to my car, a lady just 13 runs up, it is dark now. And at this time I notice 14 there is not a lot people out, I know that for sure, 15 but she just runs up, just runs up, hey, 16 can you do another interview, you know, but 17 she was nice. She just ran up, you know, like it 18 was, I was already scared at that point. 19 But I just, I looks at a lot of movies and 20 stuff and it just gets me thinking like, like if 2l anybody was trying to at that time, you know, that 22 was a good opportunity at that time. 23 You know, I think of stuff like that. 24 MS. Are you worried about your 25 physical safety, is that what you are trying to say? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 78 1 I don't know. 2 MS. If you are, that's fine. 3 I really don't know, I really 4 don't know. 5 MS. Okay. Let's get back to, um 6 some more details that you can tell us. 7 Okay, okay. 8 I want to make it very clear 9 to you though, we aren't going to talk. We aren't 10 going to say we spoke with I'm sorry, ll . The only thing are people that 12 actually go to the news. So we have a whole list of 13 people that no one knows about because we don't tell l4 them. So we want you to feel confident that you 15 speak with someone today, that it stays with us. 16 Does that make sense? 17 Yeah. 18 Okay. 19 MS. What you hear on the news from 20 a federal agent or the FBI, it didn't come from us. 21 So if that happens, or you hear rumors, call us and 22 find out because it may just be rumors. We are not 23 going to go to the news ever, all right? 24 Okay. 25 MS. So if you start hearing rumors, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 79 i 1 and you start thinking something's up, call and find i 2 out because I'm telling you right now we're not 3 going to go to the news. 4 Okay, all right. 5 MS. Okay. So we were talking about 6 this, um, the arms exchange. You are watching this 7 from your window; is that right? 8 Yes. 9 MS Do you have blinds on your 10 window? ll Yeah. 12 MS. Were you watching through the 13 blinds? l4 I had the blinds bent a little 15 bit. 16 MR. Okay. 17 MS. So they horizontal or vertical 18 blinds. Like that? 19 Yeah, the straight ones that 20 close. 21 MS. Okay. So you had the vertical 22 blinds. Did you have to move your hand to watch it? 23 Yeah, I had to bend down. 24 MS. Gotcha, okay. So while you are 25 watching this, at some point do you yell out to Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 80 1 2 Uh?huh. 3 MS. Do you yell out to at 4 some point. 5 Yeah, I yell out to her, I 6 think it was just about the time that I notice that 7 the officer went past Michael Brown's friend. 8 MS. Okay. So let's back up. So 9 the friend that you're watching, as soon as these 10 arms are exchanged back and forth out the car. ll Uh?huh. 12 MS. Um, what happens, did you 13 observe that end of the tussle? 14 They just takes off running. 15 MS. Okay. l6 They just takes off running. 17 MS. They, being the, the two boys? 18 Yeah, two boys yeah, they just 19 takes off running at the same time. 20 MS. Do you know now their names? 2l Um, Mike Brown and uh 22 MS. If you don't know his name, 23 that's fine. How would you describe him? 24 I know he had dreads. 25 MS. Okay. So it is Mike Brown and Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 81 1 the guy with the dreads? 2 Yeah. 3 MS. Okay. So at this point, um, 4 you said you see Mike Brown and the guy with the 5 dreads take off through there? 6 Uh, yeah, um, like I said, I'm 7 on different sides though. Mike Brown is on the 8 driver's side of the car, so he takes off behind the 9 vehicle directly in the middle of the road. 10 MS. Okay. 11 And his friend, there was a 12 parked vehicle, and maybe a little bit behind the 13 police cruiser. 14 When you point to it, will 15 that help you a little bit? 16 The vehicle was leaving right 17 there. 18 Okay. 19 It was actually two buildings. 20 Okay. 21 Two buildings. 1 would say 22 his friend was in the front and he runs, like I 23 said, to the very first one to the trunk of it 24 because the officer gets out of the car and started 25 shooting and his shooting stance and taking large Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 82 steps. I don't remember seeing him running. 2 I'm sorry I cut you off. So 3 you see this guy with the dreads, where does he 4 actually go. 5 He runs, yeah, he runs behind 6 the trunk of the white car, the first one. 7 MS. And when he's at the car, what 8 does he do? 9 He looked at the officer to 10 make sure the officer's not coming to him. Because ll like each shot that went off, he was like, you know, 12 ducking each time. 13 You saw him ducking. So 14 you're saying that what (inaudible), so can I say 15 you are assuming what he's doing? 16 A Yeah, I mean, yeah, that is what he was 17 doing, that is what he was doing. 18 MS. He was ducking, right? 19 Yeah. 20 MS. And he's now behind the trunk 2l of the car; is that correct? 22 Yes, uh?huh. 23 MS. And you're able to watch him do 24 that? 25 Yeah, I clearly saw him. He's Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 83 ducked down looking at the officer is like each shot that went off, he was like bam and going around the LUMP building to the passenger side. And then I notice that the door was opened, I don't know how wide the door was open, but each shot that went off, he was kind of like bam, going over to the side watching him but then I said that I noticed he went past him. MS. Let me ask you. When you were 9 watching the guy with the dreads behind the vehicle 10 (inaudible) as he is going to the passenger side, ll did you then leave from your view as he's going to 12 passenger side? 13 No, no, no, I could see him 14 clear, he didn't hop in until, like he didn't hop 15 into the vehicle until, uh, I think that he noticed 16 that his friend now did hit the ground. 17 MS. Did you actually see him hop in 18 the vehicle. 19 No, I really didn't because, 20 um, I more, when he past, I more started focusing on 2l the guy that he was shooting at now. 22 MS. Okay. So let's back up. 23 Uh-huh. 24 MS. So the two guys start running? 25 Right. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 84 1 MS. They're at a different point, 2 they're at different areas of the street, right? 3 Yes. 4 MS. Okay. Your intention is 5 initially on who? 6 It is on both of them, it's 7 it's on both of them. 8 MS. Okay. 9 So, um, like I said, when I 10 didn't want to leave out that window, I just seen an 11 officer shooting, and that gets me like, hum. I'm 12 just thinking that he was going for his friend also. 13 MS. And you're assuming that? 14 Yeah, I was assuming that, but 15 I kept my eyes on both of them. I see one running 16 straight down the middle, this one is going for the 17 very first car that he sees. 18 MS. So you see Michael run down the 19 street and you see the guy with the dreads run down 20 to the car? 21 Yeah, the guy with the dreads, 22 he was the main focus as I'm still noticing that the 23 officer is shooting straight, but I'm looking at him 24 is because I'm thinking that the officer, like, uh, 25 (inaudible) there is a pause, cause there is like a Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 85 i 1 pause by the time he went past this time. So there i 2 is a pause right there during his shooting when, 3 like I said, I was thinking that he was going to go 4 to his friend and shoot him. That's why I was main 5 focusing on him at that point. 6 MS. So at that point when Mike 7 Brown starts running, your main focus is on the guy 8 with the dreads? 9 Yeah. 10 MS. And when you see the officer ll get out of the car, you're assuming that he's going 12 after the guy with the dreadsknew he was 14 going for Mike Brown, but I kept my eyes on all of 15 them. 16 MS. Okay. l7 Mainly that I see the guy with 18 the dreads looking at the officer and the officer, 19 he he goes past him. I'm I'm sure that the 20 officer see him where he ran to. 21 MS. You are sure of that why? 22 Because when he gets out of 23 the car, the guy with the dreads, he was already in 24 front of his vehicle, he runs to the trunk of the 25 first car that he's seeing. He is looking over the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 86 i 1 trunk, ducked down, I'm sure that he saw him. i 2 MS. Okay. 3 I'm sure of that because 4 MR. Now, that's important, okay. 5 That's a good example, I mean, obviously you can't 6 be sure of what someone else saw, right? 7 Okay, okay, right. 8 MR. That's just an example, just 9 be sure that we are talking about what you actually 10 laid eyes on and what you saw, okay? ll Okay, okay. 12 MS. So you actually saw the guy 13 (inaudible) the police officer? 14 Uh?huh. 15 MS. Is that right? 16 Yes. 17 MS. Did you see the police officer l8 look over at the guy with the dreads? 19 Um no. 20 MS. Okay. And so now you have, um, 21 how soon after if you saw, how soon after when the 22 boys start running did the police officer run 23 immediately over or get out of the car? 24 No, he gets out of the car 25 immediately. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 87 1 MS. Okay. 2 Immediately. Cause as soon as 3 he breaks off just about when, like I said, Mike 4 Brown gets past his vehicle and to the back of it, 5 and he gets out immediately and starts shooting. 6 MS. So the police officer gets out 7 and Mike Brown goes past his vehicle. 8 Yeah, just just about time, 9 um, and a little bit before that. 10 MS. Okay. And then you said the ll police officer, did he have his gun out? 12 Yes. 13 MS. How did he have his gun l4 pointed? 15 Directly like in shooting 16 position. 17 MS. Okay. And you had your on 18 that and you're watching? 19 Yeah 20 MS. And the guy with the dreads? 21 Yeah, at the same time so. 22 Like I said, um, mainly I didn't want to miss 23 anything like that, you know with my own eyesthe movies, but like I said, uh, the guy 25 with the dreads, he was looking at the officer as he Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 88 was walking by shooting. That's while I was still 2 in the window and I know that he went past him, 3 that's when I went outside. 4 MS. So you say the officer was 5 shooting, how do you know he was shooting at that 6 time? 7 Cause that's when I heard the 8 gunshots when he's out the vehicle, the moment he 9 gets out the vehicle. 10 MS. So what did you do when you ll heard gunshots? 12 I'm still in the window and, 13 um, he's shooting, he's walking past his own vehicle 14 to the back of it. And um, like I said, the first 15 vehicle that the guy with the dreads run to, that 16 vehicle is a little bit behind the police cruiser. 17 So he walks past that vehicle to where his 18 friend ran to and walked past that and that's when 19 my time was to run outside then. 20 MS. Okay. When you say he, I'm not 2l sure who you are talking about. (inaudible) 22 The guy with the dreads. 23 MS. The guy with the dreads, okay. 24 Uh?huh. 25 MS I just want to be clear. So Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 89 i you decide to do the window after you see the police 3 2 start shooting, but did he stop shooting at some 3 point? 4 Um, I think there was a pause 5 in that when he past his friend, when he past the 6 vehicle to where the guy with the dreads. 7 MS. Okay. 8 When he past the vehicle. 9 MS. When the police officer past 10 the vehicle with the guy with the dreads, that's ll when there was a pause in the shooing? 12 Yeah. 13 MS. Okay. And that's when you 14 Yeah, that's when I runs 15 outside, that's when I runs outside and when I gets 16 outside, now Mike Brown is facing him instead of 17 have his back towards him. 18 MS. Okay. Let me ask you this 19 though. 20 Uh?huh. 2l MS. Before you went outside, you 22 said earlier you yell to 23 Yeah, I yell to for her 24 to go outside because they shooting. That was cause 25 I going outside at the same time, so I say don't go Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 90 1 outside cause they're shooting. That's when I 2 notice that he past his friend at that time, so that 3 just gave me enough time to go outside at that time. 4 MS. Why did you want to go outside 5 when there is gunshots being fired? 6 I mean, like I said, I never 7 seen nothing like that. You never seen nothing like 8 that. I know the direction was going straight down 9 the street going toward somebody that just ran from 10 the vehicle. ll MS. Okaythe time you got outside, 14 you said Mike Brown is now facing the officer; is in 15 that correct? 16 Yeah, uh?huh. 17 MS. And tell us what you saw at 18 that point? 19 Um, the moment I gets outside, 20 Mike Brown is now facing the officer and he got both 2l his arms on his stomach, like bent down. So I'm 22 thinking like he's now hit in the stomach somewhere. 23 MS. Okay. You are assuming that 24 now? 25 Yeah, I was assuming, I was Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 91 1 assuming that he was hit down here somewhere cause 2 he is like this, um, curled up. 3 I remember him taking like two small steps 4 because he kind of ran past his death spot where he 5 passed away at, he kind of ran past that. When he 6 turned around, he got his arms on his stomach, he 7 bent down, I remember him taking like two small 8 steps cause he was going like stumbling. 9 MS. Okay. 10 So, uh, and the officer lets 11 out four or five more shots ground. 13 MS. So, just so that I will be a 14 little more clear, I know I keep asking the same 15 things. When you go outside, you see Michael Brown 16 facing the officer and you were demonstrating, would 17 you mind standing up and describing where his hands 18 were at in the area for the recording? 19 Yeah, so when I gets outside 20 he is now like this. 2l MS. And you are actually, and so 22 for the recording, you are now Michael Brown, right? 23 Yeah. 24 MS. And you are saying he is almost Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 92 Like bent down, like he was 2 going down. 3 MS. Okay. 4 Like he was going down. He 5 took like two small steps, like he was stumbling. 6 MS. And you have both hands across 7 your stomach and your waist; is that correct? 8 A Yeah. So, um, so when I seen that, um, 9 that's when the last four or five shots come out. 10 And he drops just like how his body is and, you ll know. Let me see, yeah, one more, yeah, I mean, 12 they both, yeah, he just was like how he fell. 1 13 think one arm fell, something like that. 14 MS. You are showing one arm is down 15 on his side l6 Yeah, when he hit the ground. 17 MS. Let me just be correct for the 18 recording. Do you know whether it was his left or 19 his right or you just, you just know one hand was 20 across the stomach, waist and the other one was down 2l at his side? 22 Both of them was on his 23 stomach and when he gave out the last shots, his 24 body just boom. 25 MS. Okay. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 93 1 arm across his stomach and the other arm to his 2 side? 3 Yeah. 4 MS. Okay. And by the time, and you 5 say, when you saw was the officer firing those final 6 shots; is that right? 7 Huh?uh, yes. 8 Ms. Okay. 9 So I think that is where the 10 pause come from. ll MS. Okay. You can have a seat, 12 thank you. 13 So your memory is some shots, when you are 14 peeking out, looking out the window through the 15 blinds. l6 Yes. 17 MS. And then there are shots right 18 that you saw right before he fell; is that right? 19 Yes. 20 MS. Was out there, you were 2l on the balcony at that time? 22 Yes. 23 MS. Were your kids with you? 24 Uh, yeah. 25 MS How many of them are there? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 94 1 Uh, there was three at the 2 time. 3 MS. Okay. How old are they? 4 and 5 MS. Okay. And so, um, did you, 6 when you ran outside, you said initially, we're 7 talking about pause, you went outside, you realized 8 you forgot your phone and you went back and got your 9 phone, and the kids come out at the same exact 10 time as you? ll Yeah, like at the same time, 12 at the same time. 13 MS. Did you grab it? Did you have 14 any kids with you or did they follow you? 15 No, um, during the, she 16 lets the kids come outside at that time. 17 MS. Okay. 18 I remember she called them to 19 come outside. 20 MS. So did all three of them kind 2l of walk out with you, is that what's going on or 22 what? 23 I think they came out a little 24 bit after me cause she called them outside. 25 MS. Okay. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 95 i 1 MS. WHIRLEY: Let's stop there because I a 2 think we're all kind of restless. You probably 3 need a break. 4 MS. ALIZADEH: It is 10:29, and we've 5 stopped the recording of the fourth interview of 6 It looks like it is about halfway 7 through and it has been going on for quite a bit. 8 So this will be probably a pretty good place to take 9 about a five, ten minute break, get up, stretch, go 10 to the bathroom. And so at this time, we will pause ll the recording, take a few minutes to have a break 12 before we resume. 13 (Recess) 14 MS. ALIZADEH: All right. It is 10:44, 15 all 12 grand jurors are back in the room after a 16 brief break. We are going to resume the playing of 17 the audio statement of the fourth statement of 18 19 And at this time I will ask the court 20 reporter to pause the audio recording that we are 2l making and he will continue to transcribe or take 22 down the statement as best he can that is being 23 played for grand jurors, which is contained on Grand 24 Jury Exhibit Number 23. 25 MS. And then once Michael Brown Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 96 i 1 fell, the officer, did the officer go near the body a 2 at all? 3 Yeah, um, not too close, maybe 4 4, 5 feet away. He kind of standing over him, you 5 know, with his gun out on his talkie thing. 6 MS. You are pointing to his 7 shoulder, so you saw that? 8 Yeah, I definitely seen him, 9 you know, like this, you know, with his gun out 10 still. ll MS. Okay. And you are 12 demonstrating talking into the mike on his shoulder; 13 is that right? 14 Yes. 15 MS. Okay. You didn't see the 16 officer touch the body or do anything more with him? 17 No. 18 MS. Then afterwards, what did the 19 officer do? 20 Um, huh, huh, huh. I thinkthat time I was messing with my 22 phone, turning it on. So, I think, I think I 23 haven't really noticed it until the other two cops 24 came. 25 MS. Okay Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 97 1 I just notice like wait, a cop 2 just shot somebody and I'm still turning on my phone 3 because it was off. 4 MS. Okay. 5 Let me see. Yeah, I can't 6 remember just like before the other, the first two 7 officers came, and like what he was doing at that 8 time like right after he did the shooting or 9 whatever. I know when he got done, he was standing 10 over him on his thing. 11 MS. On his radio l2 I can't remember if he walked 13 to his car first or he came back before the other 14 two came. 15 MS. Let me ask you this, were you 16 at all trying to get your phone to work while, 17 before Mike Brown went to the ground while this 18 whole thing was happening, were you trying to get 19 your phone to work? 20 Oh, no, I was already outside, 21 like it didn't come on until the first two officers 22 came. 23 MS. I understand that. 24 Uh?huhwork Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 98 1 before then. 2 Oh, no, huh-uh. 3 MS. No, okay. Um, and just going 4 back, you said you saw his arms crossed, across his 5 stomach area, did you notice anything about his 6 hands? 7 No, no, I just thought he was 8 shot in the chest or the stomach or something. 9 MS. As far as your vantage point 10 from what you saw, his arms and his hands were ll across his stomach, correct? 12 Uh?huh. 13 MS. Is that a yes? 14 Yes, yes. 15 MS. At any point did you see his 16 hands in the air? 17 No, I didn't, I didn't. 18 MS. Okay. When you decided that 19 you were going to go from the window to the outside 20 to the balcony because there was a pause, how did 21 you know that that would be a good opportunity to go 22 outside? 23 Because, I mean, like just 24 seeing an officer with a gun just shoot, just, you 25 know, just anybody shooting period, you know. I Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 99 i 1 just see him gets out of the car shooting, you know, a 2 and I'm paying attention to the guy with the dreads. 3 Cause I'm thinking that he could just easily walk 4 over and shoot him dead. Like I didn't want to miss 5 that or something like that, you know. 6 So it is just, that was just my timing 7 right there like when I notice that he walked past 8 the car and that was just my timing right there bam, 9 he just got done like with a pause or something 10 because I said when I gets outside, it was still ll like three, four, maybe five more shots. 12 MS. Okay. And what happened when 13 you got outside, what was the kid with the dreads l4 doing? 15 Um 16 MS. Did you see him? 17 You know, I got my eye, I 18 really kind of stopped paying attention to him. 19 Because as I said, I did notice that the driver, 20 passenger side door was open on that car, but I 2l stopped paying attention to him so, and I started 22 focusing on Mike Brown cause now he's dead, and the 23 officer started walking towards him with the gun. 24 So, um, let's see, yeah, that's it about 25 that one, yeah. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 100 1 MS. I notice in some of your 2 previous statements you had said that the kid had 3 just got in the car and the car had driven off. 4 Yeah, um, I, I, I, I think 5 that was maybe right when he saw his friend die, you 6 know, hit the ground. 7 MS. So my next question is, did you 8 actually see him, the kid with the dreadsdid you assume he got in the car? 10 I, I, I assume, I assume that ll because the car was gone right after that, the car 12 was gone. 13 MS. And where were and did the 14 kid with the dreads (inaudible) where you could see 15 him? 16 No, I figure that he hopped in 17 and asked to pull off. 18 MS. Right. You figured that, 19 right? 20 Yeah, you know, I kind of 2l stopped paying attention when he walked past him. 22 MS. Okay, but you actually saw for 23 yourself, the last thing you saw was the kid kind of 24 ducking around that car? 25 Uh?huh. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 101 1 MS. And moving? 2 Yeah, ducking. And about time 3 he gets to the passenger side door because it was 4 open, about the time he got to that, I said the 5 officer passed him, so that's when I came outside 6 and started going on Mike Brown now. 7 MS. Okay. 8 MR. So the last time you seen 9 the guy with the dreads, he's headed for the back of 10 that car forward 11 Yeah. 12 MR. towards the passenger 13 door? 14 Yeah, yeah, ducking down 15 looking at the officer all through that time. 16 MR. But he is heading away from 17 Mike Brown and away from the officer, the opposite 18 direction? 19 Yeah, yeah. 20 MR. Okay, all right. And, um, 21 so at that time you are watching the officer. 22 Uh?huh. 23 MR. And the guy with the dreads 24 and Mike Brown, I think you previously said, Mike 25 Brown was about 25 feet Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 102 1 Yeah. 2 MR. past where that was. So 3 at that point you're not watching Mike Brown, you're 4 watching the police officer and the guy with the 5 dreads? 6 Yeah, um, cause Mike Brown, he 7 kind of ran some distance at that time. 8 Was he in your field of View, 9 like could you see him from when you were in your 10 bedroom looking out the window, were you able to see 11 him? 12 Uh, Mike Brown, I couldn't see 13 Mike Brown, cause of, cause of the way, I could see 14 his death spot out of my bedroom window, but as 15 say, he ran past just a little bit. 16 Past l7 You know, that would be right 18 there, that building, I think it is that one right 19 there, that building right thereView at that time, but the officer past his friend, 21 that was my opportunity to go outside. 22 MR. And when, okay. So he, Mike 23 Brown left your View there. 24 At that moment. 25 MR. You don't know, so then you Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 103 1 don't know what's he doing? 2 Exactly. 3 MR. Okay, thank you. 4 MS. And the next time he came into 5 your View is when you went outside and you are on 6 the balcony and you saw? 7 Uh?huh. 8 MS. Him facing the officer and as 9 you described, his hands across his stomach. 10 Yes, and like I said, they 11 were still, 25, I don't even know my measurements 12 good enough. 13 That's fine. 14 MS. We don't need 15 It was some distance. 16 MS. Were you able to hear any words 17 coming from either the officer or Michael Brown? 18 No, no, not at all. 19 MS. Okay. Did you see their mouths 20 moving at all? 21 Umm, no. Just the only time, 22 they got me, that he was talking on his thing. 23 Ms. Right. 24 You know, I'm not sure what he 25 was saying, but he's talking. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 104 1 MS. You are referring because the 2 audio recording that you are referring, the officer 3 was talking into or his radio on his shoulder, 4 correct? 5 Yes, yes, yes. 6 MS. Okay. I just want to ask you, 7 after it all happened and you were on your cell 8 phone, you're recording? 9 Uh-huh. 10 MS. Can you just talk about who was 11 around you? I know you said you were narrating it, 12 there are people in the background. 13 Yeah, like I saidthat parking lot already in a burgundy, maybe 15 a burgundy Bonneville. Him and his girlfriend they 16 was already sitting out there and they were just 17 talking. 18 And I remember him saying something that 19 the officer reversed back and ran over his foot, but 20 I remember him saying like on a recording that I 21 assumed that he just ran into the car and got to 22 punching on him or whatever, you know, but he said 23 that he ran over, that he reversed back and ran over 24 his foot and tried to grab him through the car 25 window. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 105 i 1 MS. Do you know this person? i 2 No, I never seen him before. 3 MS. Have you seen him since? 4 No. 5 MS. When this discussion is 6 happening, this was occurring on ground level? 7 Yes. 8 MS. So the recording you provided 9 St. Louis County, was it from the balcony? 10 Yeah, it was from the balcony. 11 MS. Okay. So just help me 12 understand that. When I watch that recording, it 13 seemed like, and what you just told me was on the 14 recording. The person in that car, that burgundy 15 car down below talking up to you? 16 Uh, you know, I can't even 17 remember. I don't know if he came up or not, like 18 on the steps wise. So I really can't remember. I 19 really can't remember. 20 MS. You say a burgundy car? 2l Yeah, yeah, I know that when I 22 went out there onto ground level, that's when I was 23 really talking to him, but I'm trying to remember 24 like if at the time when I was recording on my 25 balcony, if he walked up to the steps, cause I do Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 106 i 1 remember that, you know, so I really can't. 2 When you say balcony, I'm 3 sorry, I want to clarify for my own, is it right 4 outside your front door or a door outside of your 5 living room. 6 Yeah, it is right outside the 7 front door. 8 Okay. So steps are right in 9 front of your door? 10 Yeah, right in front of my 11 door, the balcony is right there. 12 Gotcha. 13 Yeah. 14 MR. You indicated initially when 15 you went to leave your window and go out to the 16 balcony, that you had to double back to get your 17 phone. 18 Uh?huh. 19 MR. Where was your phone? 20 My phone was in the bedroom. 2l MR. So you went from your 22 bedroom to the door? 23 Yeah, yeah, yeah. As a matter 24 of fact, my phone was right there, right there by 25 the door of my bedroom. I have a little stand right Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 107 1 there, so I ran that, grab that and went back to the 2 front door. 3 MR. All right. 4 So I was headed, I took some 5 large steps too, I don't think I missed too much 6 from that. 7 So when you said you saw the 8 officer get out of the car. 9 Uh-huh. 10 Did you see what kind of car, 11 vehicle, he was driving, what type of vehicle 12 rather? 13 Um, it was definitely a truck, 14 the Tahoes, the Tahoes. 15 Okay. So when he got out of 16 the car, and the Tahoe is a pretty big car. 17 Yeah, yeah. l8 SUV. 19 Uh?huh. 20 You could see the officer and 2l what he was doing? 22 Yeah, I could just see his 23 movements, you know. 24 Okay. 25 You know, so. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 108 1 I think after Mike Brown ran 2 away. 3 Uh-huh. 4 Officer, gets out of his car, 5 you can see the officer. 6 Yeah. 7 His body position? 8 Yeah. 9 Over by his car? 10 Yeah, basically from like his 11 chest on up. 12 Okay. 13 So I didn't I could see 14 like see his gun too, but not like his stomach on 15 down to until he got past. 16 Okay. l7 You know, so. 18 And you heard the gunshots? 19 Yeah, that's when I started 20 hearing the moment he gets out of the vehicle. 2l I'm sorry, I can't remember 22 if you said this, do you know how many? 23 How many he shots? 24 Uh?huh, before the pause? 25 I don't know, maybe five. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 109 i 1 Are you guessing? 2 That should be about four, 3 five. 4 Okay. 5 Yeah. 6 MS. If you're not sure, it is fine 7 to say you're not sure. 8 Okay. I know it was a nice 9 round because he gets out of the car immediately and 10 started shooting, just like I said, each time that 11 he shot, I was like I said, I feel for the guy with 12 the dreads. I think of it as a nightmare too 13 because each time he saw the officer shooting, he 14 was just like, you know, kind of like, I seen his 15 body jump just looking at each time like he was like 16 a duck that he was giving hisself around the 17 vehicle. So I would have to say about four or five. 18 MS. Okay. Do you remember when you 19 first talked to the County detectives, you gave a 20 recorded interview and a couple minutes later, you 2l had a follow?up right away and they went back on the 22 recording, do you remember that? 23 Um, with them? 24 MR. It would be on the same day, 25 August 9th. It was about four or five hours after Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page llO all of this happened that day they came and they 2 talked to you? 3 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was that 4 same day. 5 MS. You gave a recorded statement 6 and literally within a minute, maybe even seconds 7 later they went back on the recording. Was there 8 something that you had asked that you said I wanted 9 to ask you about. You had said in talking about the 10 initial altercation, you had said that, um, that you ll heard the shots before the police officer got out of 12 the car and that's what made the police officer get 13 out of the car. 14 So I know that since then and today that 15 you heard the shots after the cop got out of the 16 car. Now one point you said that, that is what 1 17 was just wondering. l8 Um 19 MR. You said, what is 20 referring to, Detective asked you, when did 2l you hear the first gunshots, you said you heard 22 gunshots. 23 You said, I was in window. And Detective 24 asked you, and where was the officer at that 25 point Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 111 1 And you said that he was still in the car, 2 that's when I saw the altercation, whenever it was 3 happening in the car and the guys ran. 4 And so at that point you indicated the 5 first shots were while the officer was still in the 6 car. 7 And let me ask you this, kind of, you 8 mention at the very beginning, I meant to ask you 9 this earlier, but that the guy with the dreads and 10 Mike Brown took off running at like the same 11 instant. l2 Uh?huh. 13 MR. Is that right? They both 14 just took off running at the exact same time? 15 Uh-huh. 16 MR. And you hear or seeing l7 anything that would cause l8 That's the point, I didn't 19 even hear a gunshot go off while the officer was in 20 the car, you know. So like I said, I really didn't 21 hear. The only thing I heard was a hard tussling, 22 you know. So that is what drew me to the window, I 23 could hear everything because it echos, so I could 24 hear everything, but that is what drew me to the 25 window. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 112 1 But they did take off at the same time, 2 but I really, I didn't think that maybe a shot went 3 off in the car or something because that was a good 4 timing, you know. 5 MS. The reason we ask you is 6 because as just read to you the transcript of 7 your statement, you said at that point that the shot 8 had gone off in the car. 9 Yeah, maybe, I mean, I know 10 for sure I didn't hear a shot go off in the car, 11 but, um, like I said, that's probably wasn't like 12 the first interview, that's maybe because I'd have 13 heard that a shot did go off so, you know, I was 14 trying to put a puzzle together too, maybe that's 15 the reason why they ran, but I didn't hear. 16 MS. So there is about four hours 17 from the time this whole incident occurred to that 18 the time that the county cops interviewed you. In 19 those four hours, I know that you videoed a lot of 20 it, or people on the street, did you talk to your 2l neighbors, kind of talk -- 22 No, because a lot of people 23 are my neighbors, they didn't see everything. They 24 didn't see, it was just a main guy got, uh, from 25 what I saw I kind of, you know, I like his beginning Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 113 1 from when he said he saw Ferguson pull up on these 2 guys. 3 MS. That guy in the burgundy car? 4 Yes, yes. 5 MS. You talked to him? 6 Yes. 7 MS. When you talked to him, did the 8 two of you kind of piece this together? 9 Um, like I said, he saw the 10 whole thing basically, but I pieced his with mine. ll MS. You say he saw the whole thing, 12 and he never gave you his name? 13 No, huh?uh. 14 MS. Do you know how to find him? 15 Not at all, not at all. I 16 don't remember like seeing him again afterwards or 17 the vehicle. 18 MR. Can you just real quick, can 19 you tell us what he told you again about what he 20 saw? 21 That he said, um, um, that the 22 officer pulls up to them and the officer says 23 something to them and they say something back, and 24 he reverses back and like I said, that's why the 25 police cruiser is in the middle of the street Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 114 diagonal because he cuts Mike Brown off. And he said that he runs over his foot to LUMP catch him or whatever, he said that he reached out the window to hold him or whatever, and, um, and maybe that's where the tussle started at. Going on maybe to let him know or whatever he, maybe he was punching on him in the window, whatever the case. That's when I came to the window because I heard the 9 little tussle. 10 MR. Did he say anything to you 11 about a gunshot while the police officer was in the 12 car? 13 I really don't 14 MR. Or did the officer say 15 something about that to you? 16 I don't think that he did, I 17 think somebody else said that, somebody else that 18 walked up and said that a gunshot, that's the reason 19 why they ran so fast so, but I don't remember that 20 the guy with the purple car that said that you sit here 22 today, do you know whether the first shot was, 23 whether you heard the first shot while they were, 24 while the police officer is still in the car or 25 after he got out of the car. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 115 i 1 I only started hearing shots 3 2 when he gets out the vehicle. 3 MR. Okay. And this individual 4 that you talked about who told you what he saw 5 before you actually started looking out the window, 6 you didn't see any of that, the police officer pull 7 up and an exchange between the two of them talking 8 or him backing the car up, you didn't see any of 9 that. 10 No, I didn't. 11 MR. Okay. Did you want to take 12 a break? I think we will take just a few minute 13 break. 14 Okay. 15 MR. You want to leave this on? 16 That's fine, that's fine. 17 MR. That way we don't have to 18 come back on for 19 I hear you, I hear you. 20 MR. We will be back, thank you 2l for your time. 22 We will just be a second. 23 Okay, not a problem. 24 (They took a break.) 25 Sorry about that, okay. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 116 i 1 No problem. i 2 You okay, you need to go to 3 the restroom or anything like that? 4 No, I'm fine. 5 So we have a couple more 6 questions. 7 Okay. 8 MS. So what is saying, we 9 really aren't going to go and tell anybody that you 10 gave us this information or that we spoke to you ll because when we do our investigations, we want to 12 find out what happened. And the only way to find 13 out what happened is if people feel that they can 14 truly just kind of open up and let it out. 15 Rightsaying oh, so and 17 so said this, what do you think about that? 18 Right. 19 MS. It kind of doesn't, it, it 20 doesn't, it muddies the water a little bit. 2l Yeah, yeah. 22 MS. We talked about what you know 23 and we want you to, we really want to show you that 24 we're never going to go to another person and say 25 hey, told us this or that. It is kind Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 117 1 of like, yes, you gave interviews before, and yeah, 2 you were on TV, but in here, this is totally 3 separate and apart. 4 Okay. 5 MS. This is your opportunity to 6 kind of lay it out. I know that you are concerned 7 about, I think you said you saw some websites about 8 snitches and so forth. 9 Yeah. 10 MS. And so is that from concern 11 from in the community? 12 Uh, yeah, it could be 13 anywhere, you know, it could be anywhere. It could 14 just be anywhere, so I'm not even sure, you know. 15 MS. We get it. This has caused a 16 lot of people to take sides and so forth, and we 17 just want to figure out what happened. 18 Uh?huh. 19 MS. We really do. 20 Uh-huh. 21 MS. We want to know and what they 22 saw. 23 Okay. 24 MS. We are not going to say oh, you 25 know, we got your information from Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 118 1 because, you know, nobody is going to find out. 2 Okay. 3 is there something 4 specific that you don't want to tell us? 5 Uh, no. 6 Because I'm concerned that 7 you might have been directly threatened or there is 8 people, because you keep looking down when you talk 9 about it. 10 I mean, everything I'm just, 11 nervous. 12 That's okay. 13 I'm not comfortable, I'm just 14 like after this, you know, uh, I think of stuff like 15 that. I said like, you know, everything that I've 16 done and like I said, I go to work, I go to the 17 store and little kids they recognize me and a lot of 18 people, if I get paid a nickel every time I hear the 19 word superstar, you know, I would be rich or 20 whatever. I don't know, it is just 2l You know you're not in 22 trouble to feel this way, you are not in this alone. 23 You know, you know, you see the news, there is other 24 people too that they do know the position that you 25 are in. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 119 i 1 And I know it is a lot different talking a 2 when the cameras are rolling and then talking to us. 3 Because you understand that there's the lives are 4 affected by, specifically Michael Brown's parents 5 and also the lives of the officer and Ferguson 6 police officers. So we absolutely 100 percent, 7 know you are a good person, you have a family. 8 Yes, I do. 9 That you are concerned with, 10 so if there is something more going on, if you want 11 to explain, I suspect that there is, we need to do 12 that, okay? 13 Yeah. 14 Do you trust us? 15 Yeah, I trust you. 16 MS. Okay. So going back to that, 17 going back to the Video that you have, right? 18 Uh-huh. 19 MS. So you were saying, dude, that 20 guy just went up on him, started punching him? 2l Yeah. 22 MS. That was your reaction? 23 Yeah, that was right away. 24 MS. That was your gut reaction 25 based on what you saw, am I correct? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 120 1 Yes. 2 MS. That Michael Brown went up to 3 that car and started punching the officer? 4 Yeah, yeah, cause, like I say, 5 I look at cops all the time, you know, and I see 6 other stuff that, you know, it is a lot of people 7 out there that does stupid stuff to make an officer, 8 you know, to get down on them or whatever. But that 9 definitely what I assume. 10 MS. And what you saw, though, ll right, you are watching this go on, right? 12 Yeah. 13 MS. So what you saw, correct me if 14 I'm wrong, this kid is doing something really 15 stupid. 16 Yeah, I mean, yeah, because 17 like I said, when I see somebody hit a police 18 officer, here I'm hearing a tussle like that, it 19 doesn't look right. So I assume that, you know, 20 some guy just run up to the car and started punching 2l on him and the officer gets out of the car and 22 shoots him dead. 23 MS. Right, and your immediate 24 reaction this kid just did something that was pretty 25 stupid. You said he got up in the officer's shit, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 121 1 and those are your words, right? 2 Yeah. 3 MS. Okay. And your words are like 4 that kid just went up and started punching on that 5 officer. 6 Uh-huh. 7 MS. Yes? 8 Yes. 9 MS. In the background I know that 10 this guy in the red car started like saying oh, no, 11 he started talking about running over and all of 12 that. 13 Yeah, but still at the same 14 time, I only see the moment when he was already at 15 the vehicle, so I didn't see him run up or anything 16 like that. 17 MS. Right, right. So I wanted to 18 ask you some more about that that guy in the car. 19 Uh?huh. 20 MS. Here is the thing, anything you 2l know that could steer us in the direction of finding 22 him, we would never say told find you, but it is really 24 important. We need to figure out what happened, 25 right? There are people who, people who were there, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 122 1 who saw it. 2 I mean, if something just come 3 to my mind, I mean, like the video that I have, 4 maybe you could check the license plates on that 5 vehicle. 6 MS. Okay. 7 And go from there maybe, I 8 don't know. 9 MS. Okay. Is there any other thing 10 that you know about him? 11 No, that's the only thing. 12 MS. Because it just seems kind of 13 weird to us, right, that this stranger starts coming 14 up and having a whole discussion with you? 15 Yeah, I mean, everybody just 16 started talking to everybody. 17 MS. I know. 18 Like I said, even when I had 19 started recording, you know, I started talking of 20 what I assumed, what I saw. 21 MS. Right. 22 Uh, even though I saw him 23 already at the window, but I just put it to the 24 point he ran up to the car and started, you know. 25 MS. What you said was he got up in Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 123 1 that officer's shit and started punching him. 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is 3 exactly I sawhis shit, 4 whatever, so. 5 MS. Is that what you saw, that is 6 what you saw. 7 Yeah, but still, I mean, when 8 I saw this kid be different like, as far as like he 9 could be grabbed to the car. 10 MS. Did you see him get grabbed? ll No, I didn't see him get 12 grabbed, but if 13 Have you ever, I'm going to 14 take his off, have you ever been in a physical fight 15 before? 16 Yes. 17 Fight with somebody. Now 18 imagine, did you feel like you were at an advantage 19 or disadvantage? 20 I mean, you know, I feel if 2l you are in a fight sometimes, you know, this guy's 22 getting an advantage. 23 Let me ask you, if you are 24 sitting down and someone was standing, who would you 25 say had the advantage there? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 124 1 Of course, I believe that's a 2 truck that, of course, anybody standing out of the 3 vehicle would have an advantage. 4 Okay. 5 Because I've seen it before 6 with my own eyes, that if a guy gets out of the car, 7 they get to punching on somebody that's in the car, 8 you know, because they almost can't do nothing with 9 two hands, you know. 10 Okay. ll Maybe with one, grab one hand 12 or whatever, but you know, so that there is anybody 13 outside the car would have the upper hand, you know, 14 so I do see that. 15 And did you see that? 16 Yeah, I mean, I look at it 17 like I said, anybody outside the vehicle has the 18 upper hand. 19 Right. 20 I assume, you know, he ran up 21 to the car and punched him up in his face or 22 whatever, then they takes off running. 23 So based on what you saw, did 24 you see, did you feel that Michael Brown had an 25 advantage or did you think it was the other way Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 125 i 1 around? i 2 A Uh, I mean, the advantage, he definitely 3 has an upper advantage if he's throwing punches, if 4 he's throwing punches from outside the vehicle. So, 5 but like I said, it could be different reasons why, 6 you know, he was on the side and then pulling, 7 trying to be pulled in or something like that, but. 8 We're not asking you to 9 figure that out either, so don't feel like you have 10 to. 11 Okay. 12 We're just trying to find 13 different ways to kind of jog your memory. 14 Yeah, but anybody standing 15 outside the vehicle they would have the upper 16 advantage on throwing punches. 17 MS. Could I ask you some more about 18 that guy in the burgundy car? 19 Yes. 20 MS. About how old is he? 2l I know he's younger than me, a 22 lot younger guy. I'm not even sure how old he is, I 23 know he's younger. 24 MS. Was he black or white? 25 Black. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 126 i 1 MS. Was he with anybody in the car? a 2 With a girl, maybe his 3 girlfriend. 4 MS. Did you hear him call his 5 girlfriend by name or anything like that? 6 No, huh?uh. 7 MS. So this is just some guy that 8 randomly is sitting in your neighborhood at that 9 exact moment? 10 Uh?huh. And when I got the 11 recording, I got to talking and then I got on ground 12 level and got to talking to him because he's already 13 right there and I got to 14 MS. What kind you know? 16 It was like a burgundy l7 Bonneville. 18 MS. Okay. Does know him? 19 No. 20 MS. Did you guys ever find out 21 afterwards who he was. 22 No, not really, not really, 23 not really. 24 Anybody else in the 25 neighborhood who told you that they saw what Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 127 1 happened? 2 From the beginning, there was 3 another guy, like I said, that walked up, he had 4 dreads too. And he said gunshot went off in the car 5 and that's the reason why they took off running. 6 MS. Do you know him? 7 No. 8 MS. Ever seen him before. 9 I've seen him around the 10 apartments, I've seen him before. 11 MS. Do you know his name? 12 No. 13 MS. Okay. Do you have anything 14 else you want to tell us? 15 I have something to ask. 16 MS. Sure. l7 You reverts back to about the 18 statement that the police or whatever came to my 19 house and I did that and, um, I mean, I hear a 20 change, you know, you already told me, you know, can 2l you change anything, but you know, I'm hoping that I 22 don't get in trouble for that. 23 MS. You're not in trouble. 24 I just said maybe, maybe when 25 I said that is cause, like I said, I already had did Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 128 1 so many interviews already, so each time when I like 2 hear, you know, what, even one time when I had like 3 my first of two interviews. 4 MS. Uh?huh. 5 My first of two interviews, my 6 first of two interviews I was already saying he, the 7 officer let out about eight shots, eight, nine 8 shots. But then I remember like a few more 9 interviews after that, that's when I notice about 10 the, I saw the autopsy. And I remember telling the 11 reporter, I said they only found six shells, that 12 Mike Brown was hit six times, you know. 13 I was saying like, he only shot six times 14 through that whole time? So, you know, I was 15 breaking that down so, but if I even said that to 16 him, it is probably, you know, because I already 17 heard somebody said that's the reason why they ran 18 cause a shot went off. 19 MS. Here is the thing, you are not 20 in trouble, okay? 21 Okay. 22 MS. I don't want, I want to put you 23 totally at ease. I understand that, you know, 24 you're sitting here talking to federal agents, 25 federal prosecutors and it can seem scary to Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 129 i 1 anybody, okay? i 2 Uh?huh. 3 MS. You're not in any trouble, as 4 long as you just tell us what you, yourself 5 remember. 6 Yeah. 7 MS. The best that you can, okay? 8 Yeah. 9 MS. Okay. As long as you do that, 10 you would only get in trouble if you lie to us. 11 Yeah. 12 MS. That's why we want to make sure 13 that you are telling us, we want to know the truth. l4 Oh, okay. 15 MS. Whatever side it falls on, 16 whoever it helps or doesn't help or hurts, we just 17 want to know what happened. 18 Okay, not a problem, not a 19 problem. 20 MS. We don't want you to get 2l worried about getting in trouble. We do want you, 22 we want you to just talk about it later, you are a 23 piece of the puzzle, all right? Nothing rises or 24 falls with you, nothing makes or breaks with you. 25 Even though you are on the news or media calling Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 130 1 you, that doesn't matter. You are a witness on a 2 case like any other case, okay? 3 Okay. 4 MS. And so we just want you to tell 5 us what happened. 6 Okay. 7 MS. We understand it happened 8 quickly, people have different vantage points, 9 different Views of things. 10 Right. ll MS. We want to know what you, 12 saw and heard. 13 Okay. 14 MS. So is there anything that you 15 told us here today that you want to correct, that 16 you think maybe we didn't understand correctly? 17 No. 18 MR. 1 think you said something 19 about being concerned about changing things or 20 whatever. You should have seen how many, us sitting 2l here today, this is a clean slate, okay? 22 Okay. 23 MR. What you have had to say 24 before doesn't make all that much difference. What 25 we are interested in is how do you recall this. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 131 1 Right, uh?huh. 2 MR. We want what your best 3 recollection is. 4 Okay. 5 MR. So don't worry about trying 6 to keep things straight or not changing things. I 7 mean, if you recall things differently, then you 8 just need to let us know. 9 Right, right, right, right. 10 MR. And I mean, as we sit here, 11 is there anything at all that, you know, as you look 12 back at it, that you are concerned at all? 13 Um, no, I told everything, the 14 whole story, everything you guys asked. I mean, 15 that's really nothing. I mean, it is just kind of, 16 it is just maybe a few questions. About if a gun 17 went off in the car. 18 MS. Look, some people heard one 19 thing, others heard another. You didn't hear it, 20 you didn't hear it. We just want to know what you, 21 yourself, heard and saw. 22 Okay. 23 MR. We want to know what you 24 actually know. If you're not sure, if you don't 25 recall, we need to know that, okay? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 132 1 Okay. 2 MR. What is your concern about 3 that, about the shot was in the car? 4 No, no, I mean, not too much 5 of a big concern, but it just, uh, uh, like 6 basically me just wanting to know if a shot really 7 did go off in the car. 8 MS. We can't tell you one way or 9 the other. 10 I understand. 11 MS. Here is the thing, it is like 12 we said before, if we tell you what someone else 13 said. 14 Absolutely. 15 MS. What you, yourself, saw. It is 16 natural when people start telling you things. 17 Gotcha. 18 MS. You start putting pieces 19 together. 20 Uh-huh. 2l MS. And you, you know, you may 22 start thinking you know something when in fact, you 23 know, you don't. 24 I understand, I clearly 25 understand. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 133 1 MS. Okay. So you brought up 2 before, so is reading what I refer to the 3 statement, is reading a transcript of it. The 4 reason we were asking about it is it was clearly 5 something different that you said from what you're 6 saying today. It doesn't mean you are getting in 7 trouble for that, we are just trying to figure out 8 why you said one thing saying a different thing today, and that is why we 10 brought it up. 11 Okay. That is just that 12 little part. 13 MS. Right. 14 MR. And you said other things 15 before, you mentioned different 16 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was 17 adding 18 MR. You have talked about, yeah, 19 right, I'm just talking about, you know, when you go 20 back through those statements, there is that one 2l instance we talked about, you know, where you talk 22 about the police officer being in the car when you 23 heard the first shots fired. 24 Other times you talked about that he was 25 out of the car when the first shots were fired. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 134 1 What we are trying to figure out is just 2 how you best recall it or whether or not you are 3 sure about whether he was or, you know, at the time 4 that the shots occurred, that's all we are trying to 5 do. 6 Okay, not a problem. 7 MR. Well, I mean, let me just 8 touch on that one more time. Can you tell us what 9 you recall about at that point as you are looking at 10 the window? 11 As I'm looking out the window, 12 I see Mike Brown at the driver's side window of the 13 police vehicle. I see a tussle, I see his arms 14 moving, I see the officers arms moving, so I heard a 15 hard tussling. 16 Then all of the sudden they just takes 17 off, they just takes off running. I see his friend, 18 like I said, he runs to the first car that he sees, 19 runs behind the trunk of the car because the officer 20 immediately gets out of his vehicle and started 2l shooting. So I see him looking at the officers as 22 he was taking large steps going for Mike Brown. 23 About the time that I notice that the 24 officer went past his friend, that's when I came 25 outside. By the time I gets outside, I see Mike Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 135 i 1 Brown now facing the officer. He's bent down, got i 2 his arm under his stomach and, um, like he was going 3 down, not even to surrender, to say give up, just 4 going down to bleed a little, but the officer just 5 lets out four or five more shots at him and then he 6 hits the ground. 7 MR. All right. 8 Just like (inaudible). 9 MR. You said several times too 10 that those first shots that officer fired, closer to 11 the car, that you heard those. Are you sure that 12 you actually saw him fire those shots or did you 13 hear those shots, or because you said several times, 14 I notice in your prior statements that you refer to 15 hearing them. 16 Yeah, I saw him. I saw him 17 shooting at Mike Brown the moment he gets out of the 18 vehicle. 19 MR. Okay. The moment he's 20 getting out of the vehicle? 21 Yeah, the moment 22 MR. Is he fully out of the car? 23 Yeah, he is fully out of his 24 car standing with his gun out, starts shooting, but 25 he is still in his vehicle range and his cruiser Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 136 i 1 range. So he ain't even get past it, you know, a 2 before he started shooting. So he is just like, he 3 gets out of the car, bam, you know, starts shooting. 4 MR. Anything else? 5 No. 6 MS. Do you have any other questions 7 for us? 8 Not at the moment. 9 MS. Did we force you to say 10 anything you didn't want to sayyou think we treated you 13 fairy? l4 Yes. 15 MS. Is there anything else you want 16 us to know, anything else you want us to know? 17 Uh, no, not at the moment, but 18 you know, maybe as time go on, I do have you guys. 19 MS. Yes, you do. That's a good 20 point you made. I want you to know just because you 2l came in here and spoke to us doesn't mean you can't 22 feel free to call 23 I definitely will because I 24 don't have a lawyer neither. 25 Do you feel like you need a Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 137 1 lawyer? 2 Maybe not, maybe not. I'm 3 just looking at why do everybody else have a lawyer. 4 That's an excellent 5 Do they feel like me? 6 MS. We can't tell you, all we can 7 tell you, you are not in any trouble if you come in 8 here and tell us what happened and the truth, okay? 9 Okay. 10 MS. So as long as you came here and 11 told us what happened. 12 Right. 13 MS. Then you don't have to worry. l4 Okay. 15 MS. Because that's all we really 16 want. 17 Okay. 18 Can I ask you, I'm concerned 19 about it, I understand the worry. 20 Uh-huh. 2l And I think that if you want 22 to talk to us again or one?on?one if you just want 23 to talk to you want to talk me, you just want 24 to talk anyone, you can do that too, but I do think 25 there is more to it, I really do. And I want you to Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 138 1 feel comfortable with that because understand, you 2 are not in any trouble, do you understand that? 3 I understand. 4 Okay. 5 MS. Is there anything else? You 6 seem hesitant, that's why I keep asking you. 7 Um, I mean, since, since, you 8 know, I received the call, you know, about, you 9 know, come down to the FBI or whatever, I've been, 10 you know, I can't wait to get down there, you know, 11 I need to tell you how I feel. You know, what's 12 going on, it is just me, do I need to keep doing 13 what I'm doing, go to work, you know, take care of 14 your family, you're doing, you're fine. Okay, so 15 don't know if I need to be told that, you know, or 16 if I really need some help, you know. It is really, 17 really bothering me. 18 Like all the way it has been over a month 19 now, I haven't ate good, you know. 20 I just checked my weight today and I lost 2l some pounds. 22 Okay. 23 At the time that I checked it 24 was like 160, l65. I checked it today, it was like 25 152. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 139 i 1 Okay. a 2 I've been eating like 3 horrible, like once a day, like mostly like at 4 nighttime. You know, so the whole day I eat little 5 snacks, I'm not getting full like, you know, 6 everybody supposed to eat good full like two or 7 three times a day at least, but I'm not eating much, 8 not getting as good of sleep. 9 What's on your mind? 10 I mean, I don't know just, um, 11 maybe just what if what I already did with the 12 reporters and, you know, I be thinking like somebody 13 is looking for me, maybe. You know, I just have 14 weird feelings. 15 What type of person, what do 16 you think that you did wrong? 17 I mean, just the point, um, I 18 did quite a few interviews and I don't think, I only 19 know there's a few witnesses. I think I just 20 notice 21 There is only a few witnesses 22 that went to the media, there is a big difference 23 between only a few witnesses. 24 Okay. I don't think they 25 didn't do as many as I did. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 140 i 1 Okay. a 2 But like I said, I don't know 3 if I'm just worried, by me doing that I just 4 immediately felt so worried since then and not 5 having a lawyer and seeing that on the internet. 6 MS. Are you worried about being 7 called a snitch? 8 No, I'm not worried about 9 that. I'm hoping, I don't want nothing happening to 10 me, you know. Maybe if my information is really 11 good enough or whatever, and you know, I don't want 12 nobody coming looking for me because I have good 13 information, whatever the case. 14 MS. Gotcha. 15 I have a weird feeling. 16 MS. Well, I tell you this, first of 17 all, and I know if you feel like your personal 18 safety is endanger, you need to call 911, but you 19 have my name. 20 Yes. 21 Okay. If you get any threats 22 or anything you call me. That is the main office 23 number, you can talk to anyone. 24 Okay. 25 If that makes you Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 141 1 Okay. 2 You know, anybody you want to 3 talk with. 4 Okay. 5 Ask for me, they'll put you 6 through. 7 Okay, all right. 8 But I suspect there is more 9 to it. I know there is a lot of pressure, like you 10 said, you feel like, I don't want to put words in 11 your mouth, but there may be a bit of a spotlight on 12 you? 13 Yeah, that too, that too. You 14 know, it is almost like a now, I already got bills 15 that I have to, you know, worry about it now. Now 16 this is just all up in my mind. 17 Yeah. 18 You know, so, I mean. 19 MS. You said something before about 20 being a good enough witness, there is no such thing 2l as being a good enough witness. Everybody knows 22 what they know. 23 Right. 24 MS. Or they don't know, everybody 25 plays a part. There is no measure for anything, the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 142 1 only thing we want is for people to come in and tell 2 us what happened. Nobody is good enough or bad 3 enough, they are what they are. 4 Okay. 5 MS. You saw what you saw, heard 6 what you heard and that's it. 7 Okay. 8 MS. Not good enough or bad enough, 9 you happen to be there and see the part that you 10 did. 11 Okay. 12 Do you feel comfortable with 13 everything you said today? 14 Yes. 15 Okay. 16 Okay. 17 MS. Thank you. 18 Thank you. 19 All right. 20 I hope that is good enough. 2l MS. I just said there is no such 22 thing as good enough, did you tell us the truth? 23 Yes, of course. I done 24 exactly what I saw and just to let you know, the 25 last interview I did with that last Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 143 1 one. You know, I don't know if he was trying to 2 confront me or whatever, but he had the other girl, 3 he had me to listen to her story so see whether my 4 story were to change. I mean, that's what she saw 5 and this is what I saw, you know. 6 MS. Right, so you made a good 7 point. He showed you someone else's interview? 8 Yeah. 9 MS. And he asked you about it, 10 right? Is why you feel uncomfortable, this is why 11 we don't tell you what other people said, we just 12 want to know what you said. We are not going to ask 13 you about someone else's. l4 I gotcha. 15 MS. Okay. 16 I gotcha. 17 MS. Do you feel like we treated you 18 fairly with the questions? 19 Yes, yes. 20 MR. You are comfortable today? 2l Yes. 22 MR. Do you feel like we 23 confronted you the way he did? 24 Yeah. That we confronted the way Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 144 1 did, is what you are talking 2 aboutMR. All right. But you're 5 concerned about the way (inaudible), that's why you 6 quit doing media interviews? 7 No, no, because after that, it 8 just, I just thought I did so many and all of these 9 reporters, they was coming to my house, calling my 10 phone, they coming to my momma's house. I don't ll know how they got my momma's address. 12 They called my next door neighbor, I don't 13 know how they get her number. They was just like, 14 when I get home, it has been like a good two weeks 15 after his death, like they like, when I get home, I 16 like to straighten out my apartment. I like to 17 straighten up to make sure everything is right. 18 I've got kids, you know, I like to 19 straighten up and relax. That's the first thing I 20 like to do when I get home there may be three or 21 four waiting on me, you know, trying to get a piece 22 of me and stuff like that whatever. And, you know, 23 they throw cameras in my face and say, it is live. 24 I'm like okay, whatever. 25 But it is just after so many of them, that Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 145 i is just When it hit me, that same night after doing 9 that show, I came back home and my fiancee came home LUMP too, and we kind of had some words exchanged and she didn't want to give me a kiss or whatever, but normally when she don't do that, I go up and mess with her, but I didn't bother her at all about that. I just went into the kitchen and started walking around in the kitchen and I started to fix 9 me a sandwich. As I was fixing a sandwich, I've got 10 the two (inaudible) out, but I'm just pacing back ll and forth in the kitchen. I started sweating and 12 being real nervous. 13 So when my fiancee walking around, you 14 know, with an attitude, I stopped her in the kitchen 15 and said look, you know, right now, you know, what 16 you want right now is petty right now, I just want 17 to tell you that right now. I'm feeling very, very l8 sick right now, very, very sick. I'm shaking and 19 I'm nervous right now and I'm scared, you know. 20 It is just since that day, it has been 2l kind of different. Like I said, my stomach started 22 hurting then one morning, on Monday morning, on 23 Mondays I have to be at work about 6:00 in the 24 morning to go to the office, but I woke up like five 25 something with some real chest pains. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 146 i So, you know, it was just almost like, you a know, something trying to happen, you know. One LUMP after another, whatever. I don't know, like I said if I'm just worried. I be on the highway and a couple of times I'll be seeing like almost accidents going to happen or whatever, you know. And like I said, I'm worried, I be worried. It has been twice I seen 9 when I leave off work, I gets on the highway, has 10 been two times I seen a guy on a black ll black helmet, black everything, follow 12 me. I don't know, he wasn't following me though, 13 but just, you know, I didn't see him in my rear view 14 at first, but now I see him. 15 And from St. Charles Rock Road to Lucas 16 and Hunt, it is kind of a little distance. He was 17 behind me for a minute and I got to thinking like, 18 then he zoomed past me and then started catching up 19 and then he started catching up. And he zoomed in 20 front of me and then he zoomed in front of another 2l car and I'm like oh, that could have been an 22 accident. 23 I'm just saying, I was looking what if 24 this guy maybe looking for me. I think of stuff 25 like that. So that's it, that's it, so I am Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 147 comfortable talking to you guys about that. MR. Other than that news LUMP interview you talked about, has anybody confronted you about this in a way that No, I know around my neighborhood and at work, everybody is looking at me as a super star, you know. When I catch some guys at the store, have you been on TV. They be wanting 9 to shake my hand so. I see, you know, in that 10 community they see me as, I guess, I'm okay, you ll know, so. 12 I do think of the Klu Klux Klan, I do 13 think of them. You know what, a friend told me 14 yesterday, I don't know if it is true or not, I 15 doubt if it's true. He said, uh, that something 16 happened to Mike Brown's family at their house, like 17 their house got shot up or something. 18 I'm asking? 19 That's what he said, he said that one of 20 Mike Brown's family's momma house or something got 2l shot up by the Klu Klux Klan or whatever, you know. 22 So that is what he tells me last night or whatever. 23 So I don't do much believe that, but still as far as 24 me, just in case because I don't have a lawyer or 25 whatever, all the information that I said on each Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 148 1 interview and stuff like that, so that's it, that's 2 it, you know. 3 Okay. 4 But I am comfortable, so I do 5 have your number, so anything else I'll make 6 contact. 7 Okay. Well, I'm going to end 8 the recording. It is 2:38 p.m. 9 (End of the recording.) 10 MS. ALIZADEH: It is 11:35 and this is 11 Kathi Alizadeh, all 12 grand jurors are still 12 present, we just completed the tape recorded fourth 13 statement of . And at this point, I'm 14 going to have go ahead and finalize the tape. 15 Immediately after this, immediately after finalizing 16 the tape, I have a witness that we are going to go 17 ahead and call. 18 Typically we play the statement before the 19 witness, but I just, since he has been here, I would 20 like doesn't have to 21 wait. And then after he testifies, we will play his 22 statement for you, which is about 30 minutes and 23 only one. And, um, then you break for lunch, maybe 24 after this witness testifies and then after lunch 25 play that 30 minute statement of his. And so at Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 149 i 1 this time we will end this recording and finalize i 2 the disc. 3 (Recess) 4 MS. ALIZADEH: All right. This is Kathi 5 Alizadeh, all 12 grand jurors are in the room, as 6 well as Sheila Whirley who is with the St. Louis 7 County Prosecutor's Office, and at this time I will 8 ask the court reporter to pause the audio recording 9 and then we will have the witness identify himself 10 and then we will resume the audio recording for his 11 sworn statement. 12 WITNESS IO, 13 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to 14 testify the truth, the whole truth, and 15 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, 16 deposes and says in reply to oral l7 interrogatories, propounded as follows, to?wit: l8 EXAMINATION 19 BY MS. ALIZADEH: 20 Now, as I mentioned to you, well, let me 21 first have you state your name. 22 A (Redacted) 23 And I told you before you came in here we 24 were going to record things, but that you were not 25 going to be recorded when you stated your name, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 150 1 correct? 2 A Correct. 3 And you believe me that I'm going to keep 4 my word on that? 5 A Yes. 6 All right. And then after the 7 introduction portion, the court reporter will begin 8 the recording again. You will be referred to as 9 Witness Number 10, all right? 10 A (Nods head.) ll And the grand jurors will refer to 12 themselves by their grand juror number. 13 If, you know, sometimes I don't know 14 if there will be any reason why you would say your 15 own name, I would try to remind you don't mention 16 your own name while we are recording because that's, 17 we are trying to protect your identity, okay? 18 A Okay. 19 How old are you? 20 A (Redacted) 2l And what's is your date of birth? 22 A (Redacted) 23 Okay. And whereabouts do you live? 24 A (Redacted) 25 And did you grow up in Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 151 1 A Yes. 2 Okay. And are you familiar with the 3 Ferguson area? 4 A Yes. 5 And what do you do for a living? 6 A 7 And what's the company you work for? 8 A (Redacted) 9 How long have you been working for them? 10 A I have been working for them for 11 12 Okay. 13 MS. ALIZADEH: At this time, I will 14 have you go ahead and start the audio recording. 15 (Audio recording is started.) 16 (By Ms. Alizadeh) Now, Witness Number 10 17 you have been sworn and you have just introduced 18 yourself to the jurors. And you understand that 19 this is an investigation into the shooting death of 20 Michael Brown, correct? 21 A Correct. 22 I talked to you on the phone yesterday 23 about coming forward and testifying today, correct? 24 A Correct. 25 And you know you are under oath and sworn Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 152 1 to tell the truth? 2 A Yes. 3 You have been interviewed by the St. Louis 4 County Police Department as well as the is that 5 correct? 6 A Correct. 7 But that was just one interview; is that 8 right? 9 A Yes. 10 Have you ever been on television or gone 11 before the media? 12 A No. 13 Have you done any other interviews whether 14 it be with law enforcement or anybody in the 15 entertainment or media industryother than that statement that you 18 made previously to the County Police and the FBI, is 19 this really only the second time where you've been 20 asked to answer questions about what happened on 2l that day? 22 A Correct. 23 Okay. So Witness Number 10, can you tell 24 me on August 9th of this past year, a little over a 25 month ago, were you still working for the company Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 153 1 that you identified at that time? 2 A No, was actually doing a side job. 3 Okay. So this was something on your own 4 that you were doing? 5 A Correct. 6 And were you working by yourself that day 7 or were you with anyone else? 8 A was working by myself. 9 10 Okay. So was it a that 11 you were working atbeing there 16 in that doing just that they asked 17 for me to do. 18 Okay. So what kind of work were you 19 doing, was it indoor work or outdoor work at this 20 2l A Indoor. 22 Was it work you are familiar with, like 23 and stuff like that? 24 A 25 And so you said that was the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 154 1 you had ever been at that 2 A Correct. 3 When were you previously at that 4 A I believe in maybe. 5 Okay. So before? 6 A Yes, yes. 7 And did you know the name August 9th when you were 11 working there, was there anyone that just that was 15 thereand the original that once before 1 l8 seen once before. 19 Okay. So the original was that 20 that was therethat that you know of? 24 A I'm not sure. 25 Okay. Did you have any interaction with Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 155 Okay. About what time that 5 A Um, I arrived roughly around 6 In the morning? 7 A Yes. 8 And do you remember the address of that 9 9 10 A No, I'm not sure. 11 So are you familiar with the Ferguson 12 area? 13 A Yesthat that 15 day? I mean, you don't have to start like where you 16 are starting at home, but did you get to that 17 residence off of West Florissant? 18 A Yes. 19 Okay. So from West Florissant, what 20 street did you turn onto? 2l A Let me back that up. No, I actually 22 didn't get onto the street off West Florissant, I 23 actually took 24 there is a 25 back way off you can take to get to Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 156 i 1 that street. a 2 Okay. Is the near the Canfield 3 Green Apartment Complex? 4 A Yes, 5 6 Now, I might ask you to stand up here 7 Witness Number 10. And this is an exhibit that I've 8 marked as GJ for Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25, which 9 is a map. I showed you this map right before you 10 came in to testify; is that right? 11 A Yes. 12 Okay. And are you familiar, do you 13 recognize the streets or the layout as being streets 14 that are in the Canfield Green Apartment Complex? 15 A Yes. 16 Can you see where you were 17 working that day? 18 A Yes. 19 Can you point to it so the jurors can see? 20 A (Indicating) 21 And the number where you are pointing is 22 23 A Yes. 24 Okay. So does this face, now, if 25 this Canfield Drive, does the face Canfield Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 157 1 Drive? 2 A Yes. 3 And is this a 4 A Yes. 5 Is the off of Canfield Drive? 6 A Yes. 7 All right. So did you have your, you can 8 sit down now, thanks. 9 Did you have your own vehicle that 10 day? 11 A Yes. 12 What kind of vehicle were you in? 13 A 14 And with your type of work, do you have 15 things that you keep in that 16 17 A Correct. 18 Okay. And so you said that you were doing 19 work that day, would you have occasion 20 to have to come outside while you were working? 2l A Yes. 22 And where was your parked? 23 A It was parked in the front face 24 towards the 25 So you pulled straight into the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 158 1 and the nose of your vehicle is facing the 2 A Yes. 3 Okay. And from the time you got there 4 around that day, did you ever leave before the 5 incident that we are here to testify about? 6 A No. 7 So from until something happened, was 8 there anything else memorable about that morning? 9 A No. 10 And then something happened that you know 11 why you are here to testify about. Can you just 12 narrate for the jurors what is the first thing that 13 you heard or saw that drew your attention? 14 A Well, first thing I saw was, I came that I needed. 15 outside to get 16 I was just finishing up the job. I came outside to 17 get and I seen Mike Brown and his friend 18 walking down the street closer to the curb, not on 19 the sidewalk and my initial thought was with me 20 being aware of my surroundings, they were walking 2l towards me. My initial thought was wow, that is a 22 big guy right there, and speaking on Mike Brown. 23 So let me stop you, did you know Mike 24 Brown before that day? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 159 i 1 Had you ever seen him before? a 2 A No. 3 And the other person that was with him, 4 how would you describe him? 5 A Short. 1 just recognize, I really picked 6 up on and drew in and focused on Mike Brown because 7 he was such a big guy and, um, the only thing I can 8 recall on his friend he was short, had dreads and 9 with the color dye in his dreads and that was pretty 10 much it. 11 So his short dreads were like tipped 12 color; is that right? 13 A Yes, yes. 14 Okay. And so when you first saw them, 15 were they walking like in the direction of the 16 apartment complex or out of the complex? 17 A They were walking in the direction of the 18 complex. 19 So they were walking this direction 20 towards the complex? 2l A Yes. 22 And at this point, when you first saw 23 them, were you near your 24 A Yes, I was actually in the back door of 25 the um, where it is closer to the sidewalk. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 160 1 And they were just coming up upon me and that's when 2 I, me being aware of my surroundings, I just focused 3 in on Mike Brown and his friend coming up close to 4 me. 5 And so when you first saw them then, were 6 they closer to West Florissant or were they past the 7 8 A They were closer, like really probably I 9 would give it maybe within 10, 15 yard range of me. 10 And do you remember, other than their 11 sizes, do you remember anything about their clothing 12 that drew your attention? 13 A Yes, I remember Mike Brown, he had on flip l4 flops, black, and his socks really drew attention. 15 They were bright neon yellow with, it appeared to be 16 marijuana symbols on them. 17 Okay. Anything else that you recall l8 noticing about either one of them? 19 A Mike Brown had a St. Louis Cardinal hat 20 on, red St. Louis Cardinal hat. 21 Okay. 22 A That was pretty much it. 23 Did you notice, were either of them 24 carrying anything? 25 A No, I didn't notice that. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 161 1 Okay. Did you notice them doing anything 2 like with each other, were they interacting in a way 3 that drew your attention? 4 A No, they were just talking amongst each 5 other. 6 So other than noticing, like you said, you 7 are aware of your surroundings when you are working, 8 so you see these two guys about 10, 15 feet or 9 yards, 1 can't remember? 10 A Yards, yards. 11 10 or 15 yards walking in your direction, 12 did you feel threatened by their presence at all? 13 A I didn't feel threatened, I just, I don't l4 know, I was just aware of my surroundings and just 15 ready for, I'd rather be ready for anything that 16 happens instead of being a surprise to me. 17 So you noticed that this one guy, and you 18 now know the bigger guy's name is Michael Brown, 19 correct? 20 A Correct. 2l Have you ever learned who the small, 22 shorter guy was? 23 A Yes, through the media. 24 Okay. And so what do you know his name to 25 be? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 162 1 A It is Mr. Johnson, I believe. 2 And so when you, when you saw them, did 3 they just continue to walk in your direction down 4 the street? 5 A Yes. 6 Did they stop and talk to you at all? 7 A No. 8 Did you wave at them or did you know if 9 you made contact with them at all? 10 A No. 11 So did they pause or stop at all? 12 A No. 13 So they just continued to walk down the 15 A Correct. 16 Did it appear that they were walking 17 casually, leisurely, in other words, or did they 18 appear to be in a hurry? 19 A Just casual walking. 20 And at this point you said they were in 2l the street? 22 A Yes, closer to the curb. Close to the curb, but still in the Still in the street, yes. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 163 1 Are there sidewalks at that location by 2 the 3 A Yes, yes. 4 And so they are in the street, but closer 5 to the curb? 6 A Yes. 7 Were they walking in, I guess what I'm 8 going to say, the correct lane of traffic. So in 9 our country and you are driving on a two way street 10 you stay to the right? 11 A Uh?huh. 12 So were they on the right side or were 13 they walking like against the traffic? 14 A No, they were walking with the traffic. 15 Okay. And so how long did you see them or 16 have them in your sight before you didn't see them 17 any more? 18 A Um, I would say within maybe a minute or 19 less. Like I said, I was just out getting, out 20 retrieving my tools to go back in the to wrap 2l it up. After they passed me, that's when I went 22 into the 23 Okay. So you took your or 24 whatever, and went into the 25 A Yes. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 164 1 When is the next time you come outside? 2 A I forgot something, to get something out. 3 I went out to get something else from the . I 4 would say it was maybe within a two minute time 5 span. 6 And what did you see or hear when you came 7 out the second time? 8 A Well, when I came out the second time, the 9 way the view of the is I guess I use the 10 pointer? 11 Sure, you can use that. 12 A My is parked actually right here. 13 The front door of the facing the street. I 14 came out of the and when I came out walking 15 towards the this is still open right here 16 because I did not drive all the way up 18 So my view of sight as seeing the 19 police car right. 20 If you need to get up to look at the names 2l or anything, feel comfortable to do that. 22 A Okay. Police car was right about here. 23 (indicating) 24 Okay. And so if Canfield Drive, I will 25 describe that as a horseshoe, is that fair to say? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 165 i 1 A Yes. i 2 The police car was like right in between 3 the two legs of the horseshoe? 4 A Correct. 5 Which direction was it facing? 6 A It was facing towards me. 7 So it was facing West Florissant? 8 A Yes. 9 And was the car, police vehicle moving or 10 was it still when you saw it? 11 A It was still, it was at a slight slant. 12 Okay. And so what then did you see 13 happen? 14 A I seen Mike Brown was leaned over inside 15 the police officer's window. I didn't see 16 Mr. Johnson at any moment during this time. 17 So did you see where he went or anything? 18 A No. 19 So when you come back out, you don't see 20 him? 21 A No. 22 You just see Mr. Brown? 23 A I just see Mr. Brown inside the police 24 officer's window. It appeared as some sort of 25 confrontation was taking place. After that, that Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 166 i 1 took place for seconds, I'm not sure how long. I i 2 know that it appeared that some confrontation was 3 taking place. 4 And one shot, the first shot was let 5 loose and after the first shot, Mike Brown came out 6 of the window and took off running. 7 With that happening, I thought 8 instantly because the police officer didn't 9 immediately react on how I would have thought it 10 would have went down. Where he didn't immediately 11 get out of his car and chase after Mike Brown. 12 So my initial thought was that wow, 13 did I just witness this young guy kill a police 14 officer. 15 So after that, Mike Brown ran some 16 distance, the police officer exited his vehicle with 17 his weapon drawn, pursuing Mike Brown, and I would 18 say Mike Brown, he stopped right here. He was 19 turning into this driveway right here, but he 20 stopped right here. 21 The officer was already in pursuit of 22 him. He stopped. He did turn, he did some sort of 23 body gesture, I'm not sure what it was, but I know 24 it was a body gesture. And I could say for sure he 25 never put his hands up after he did his body Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 167 1 gesture, he ran towards the officer full charge. 2 The officer fired several shots at 3 him and to give an estimate, 1 would say roughly 4 around five to six shots was fired at Mike Brown. 5 Mike Brown was still coming towards 6 the officer and at this point I'm thinking, wow, is 7 this officer missing Mike Brown at this close of a 8 range. 9 Mike Brown continuously came forward 10 in the charging motion and at some point, at one 11 point he started to slow down and he came to a stop. 12 And when he stopped, that's when the officer ceased 13 fire and when he ceased fired, Mike Brown started to 14 charge once more at him. When he charged once more, 15 the officer returned fire with, I would say, give an 16 estimate of three to four shots. And that's when 17 Mike Brown finally collapsed right about even with 18 this driveway. (indicating) 19 And during this whole time there was 20 a blue Monte Carlo parked almost right where that 2l car is while this altercation was taking place. 22 And the car drove around and stopped 23 right here and when Mike Brown collapsed in the 24 street, that's when his friend came out, I don't 25 know out of what direction he came from. All I know Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 168 is I seen him run across from in front of the squad car and he ran across and he stopped like evenly LUMP with the car that was parked right here and yelled, "he just killed him, he just killed him." I'm not sure if he was speaking with the people that were in the car or if he knew them. He never leaned over to address them, he just yelled it. After he yelled it, he ran off through the back 9 fields of Canfield. 10 All right. Now, I'm going to start at the ll beginning and we are going to kind of go through 12 this a little bit and I'm going to ask you more 13 detailed questions to clarify. 14 So from the time that you came 15 outside, and you said you were at the back of your 16 17 A When I first seen Mike Brown. 18 Okay. The second time you came out, where 19 exactly were you then? 20 A I was in front, actually, at the corner of 2l the in front of the in front of my 22 23 Did you change your position during this 24 entire scenario? 25 A No. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 169 i 1 Like did you run down towards the street 3 2 or anything? 3 A No. 4 Did you run out into the street? 5 A No. 6 So you just stayed where you were? 7 A Yes. 8 And from where you were, did you have a 9 line of sight where you could see, you described 10 Michael Brown as actually coming to a point where he 11 was almost turning onto Copper Creek Court? 12 A Yes. 13 Could you see that from where you were? 14 A Yes. 15 So when you first look down that street, 16 you said you saw Michael Brown in the officer's l7 window? 18 A Correct. 19 So describe for the jurors how, what you 20 mean by that? 21 A Half of his body, his feet was still 22 planted on the ground, his upper body was inside the 23 window in a leaning motion inside the window, his 24 upper body was inside. 25 Now so is that the first thing you see Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 170 i 1 when you look that he's already got his upper body 3 2 inside the car? 3 A Yes. 4 So anything that happened before that, you 5 didn't 6 A I never seen it. 7 witness? Did you hear tires squealing 8 or anything? 9 A No. 10 Anybody screaming or yelling? 11 A No. 12 Okay. So when you saw that, what did you 13 see, could you see into the windshield of the 14 officer's car? 15 A No, I could just see him leaned over 16 inside the officer's car. 17 So who's him? 18 A Mike Brown. 19 Okay. And so you said his head was inside 20 the window? 21 A Yes. 22 His shoulders? 23 A Yes. 24 His upper body? 25 A Yes Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 171 1 Okay. And could you see the officer from 2 that vantage point? 3 A No. 4 Could you see what was going on inside the 5 car? 6 A Not really, no. 7 Can you see was the vehicle moving at all? 8 A No. 9 Was Mike Brown moving at all? 10 A It appeared to be. 11 Okay. And can you describe, I don't want 12 to put the words in your mouth, I want you to 13 describe what you saw when you say it appeared to be 14 that he was moving? 15 A It appeared to be some sort of 16 confrontation taking place in the vehicle. I 17 couldn't make it out, I couldn't say who did what 18 within that time span within that vehicle. All I 19 know is that it just looked out of the norm with 20 somebody being leaned over inside the police 2l officer's car. 22 Okay. So did you hear anything, like 23 yelling, were they yelling at each other or anybody 24 yelling? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 172 1 Okay. So I can be clear on this, is it 2 that you didn't hear anything or there wasn't 3 yelling? 4 A I didn't hear anything. 5 Okay. And so you believed there was an 6 altercation, is it a physical altercation or just a 7 verbal altercation? 8 A For me I would think it was a physical 9 with being, him being inside the vehicle. 10 Okay. And so, and then you said that went 11 on for a few seconds? 12 A Yes. 13 And then you heard a gunshot? 14 A Yes. 15 Have you heard a gunshot before? 16 A Yes. 17 And you recognize that sound as a gunshot? 18 A Yes. 19 And how many gunshots did you hear at that 20 point? 21 A One. 22 And then what did you say Mike Brown did 23 at that point? 24 A At that point, he exited, he took hisself 25 out of the vehicle, removed hisself from the vehicle Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 173 1 and ran towards the complex, deeper into the 2 complex. 3 So at the time that you heard that single 4 gunshot, was Michael Brown's upper body, as you 5 described, inside the police vehicle? 6 A Yes. 7 And so when he, how long after that shot 8 does his body come out of the vehicle? 9 A Almost immediately. 10 Okay. And then how long after his body 11 comes out of the vehicle does he turn and start to 12 run? 13 A Immediately. 14 And then you said that it took sometime 15 longer than you would have expected before the 16 officer got out of his vehicle? 17 A Yes. 18 And can you give me just in your best 19 estimate, are we talking seconds or minutes? 20 A No, seconds, maybe 10 to 15 seconds. 21 Okay. And do you remember what kind of 22 vehicle this is? 23 A Yes, it is a truck, I think maybe a Tahoe 24 like style, SUV. 25 A_bigger Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 174 1 A Yeah. 2 And so when the officer got out of his 3 vehicle, did he get out from the driver's door? 4 A Yes. 5 And did he shut the driver's door do you 6 recall or did he leave it open? 7 A I don't recall that. 8 And did you, did it appear to you, when 9 you saw Mike Brown turn and run away, did you see 10 any bloodappear to you in any way that he 13 was somehow injured, Mike Brown? 14 A No. 15 Okay. When the officer gets out of his 16 vehicle, did it look to you as if he was injured in 17 any way? 18 A No. 19 Okay. And so how long, and you said now 20 when he gets out of the vehicle, he has already got 2l his gun drawn? 22 A Yes. 23 And when you say gun drawn, you mean out 24 of his holster? 25 A Yes. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 175 i 1 In his hand? 2 A Yes. 3 And do you recall which hand? 4 A His right hand. 5 And when he first gets out of the vehicle, 6 how long before he then starts to pursue, as you 7 said, Michael Brown? 8 A He immediately starts to pursue. 9 And so as he begins to pursue him, can you 10 describe his pace? You said Michael Brown was 11 running, correct? 12 A Correct. 13 And how would you describe the officer's l4 pace? 15 A Running. 16 And was he, what was he doing with his gun 17 as he was running? 18 A Just carrying as he was running towards 19 Mike Brown. 20 Okay. Can you stand up for a second and 21 show me where, if you use your right hand and make 22 like a gun thing with your right hand. How was he, 23 when he was running, how was he, hand running, how 24 was that gun? 25 A Like in a running, just as you run Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 176 i 1 normally. 3 2 Okay. So he wasn't walking with the gun 3 pointed in the direction of Michael Brown? 4 A No. 5 Or pointed in the direction of Michael 6 Brown? 7 A No. 8 Okay. You can sit back down. 9 And so when the officer started 10 running after Michael Brown, can you give me an ll estimate as to how far Michael Brown was ahead of 12 the officer, in other words, he got a little bit of 13 a head start, correct? 14 A Correctfront of the officer 16 when the officer started running? 17 A I would say the police car is right here, 18 so Mike Brown maybe was about this far before the 19 officer exited his vehicle and within that time 20 would say the officer maybe was here when Mike Brown 2l stopped there. 22 Okay. So you initially describe that when 23 the officer got out of his vehicle, Mike Brown was 24 close to where this like, this car is on this map? 25 A Yeah, I would say. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 177 1 More around Caddiefield Road? 2 A Yes. 3 Okay. And then the officer immediately 4 pursues him and does Michael Brown continue to run 5 down Canfield? 6 A Correct. 7 And then does the officer close the gap or 8 do they remain, you know, do they remain that 9 distance apart or does the officer close the gap? 10 A He starts to close the gap when Mike Brown 11 stops right here. And I would say the officer is 12 right at the D, for drive. (indicating) 13 Did you hear or see the officer fire his 14 weapon as Mike Brown was running away? 15 A No. 16 Do you know, I don't want you to guess, 17 other than maybe if you observed something that 18 caused you to assume, but do you know why Mike Brown 19 stopped and turned around? 20 A No, I'm not sure. That is something that 2l I wrestle with to this day, I'm not sure. I'm not 22 sure if he knew the people that was in that car and 23 he thought maybe he had time to go back to wrestle 24 with this officer. To this day, why would he turn 25 around and not give himself up. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 178 1 And so during the time the officer is 2 running after him, do you hear the officer saying 3 anythingyou hear Mike Brown saying 6 anythingdistance where I don't hear 8 anything. All I can do is just see what's going on. 9 So you're not saying that there wasn't 1O anything said, you just didn't hear anything? 11 A Correct. 12 Okay. And so now you testified that when 13 Mike Brown gets to around the corner, or the corner 14 of Canfield Drive and Copper Creek Court is where he 15 turns around; is that right? 16 A Yes. 17 And does he, the whole time before he 18 turns around, is he running the whole time? 19 A Yes. 20 Running with his back to where the officer 21 is? 22 A Correct. 23 And then you say he turns around and what 24 does the officer do when Michael Brown stops and 25 turns around? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 179 i 1 A He stops. 2 So at that point, are they still the same 3 distance or is it a little closer gap? 4 A The officer is right there, Mike Brown 5 stops right there. (indicating) 6 And so you indicated that the officer was 7 right about where the or the abbreviation for 8 drive on Canfield Drive would be? 9 A Correct. 10 And Mike Brown, you indicated, was maybe 11 in the grassy area or even on the sidewalk? 12 A Correct. 13 At the corner of Copper Creek Court and 14 Canfield Drive? 15 A Yes. 16 Okay. And then what did you see happen 17 next after Mike Brown turned around, where were his 18 hands? 19 A Down by his side. 20 Now, you indicate that he did some kind of 2l body gesture? 22 A Correct. 23 And so, of course, you know that this has 24 been a point that people have talked about, correct? 25 A Yes. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 180 1 Can you describe for them what you mean 2 when you said you saw him do a body gesture. If you 3 need to stand up to demonstrate, you can do that 4 too? 5 A I can't say for sure what sort of body 6 gesture, I cannot recall fully. All I know surrendering motion of I'm 8 surrendering, putting my hands up or anything, I'm 9 not sure. If it was like a shoulder shrug or him 10 pulling his pants up, I'm not sure. I really don't ll want to speculate things and that's what I have to 12 say for that. 13 Okay. So turn, Mike Brown turns around, 14 makes that gesture, then how long before he then 15 moves in the direction of the officer? 16 A Immediately after he did his body gesture, 17 he came for force, full charge at the officer. 18 And full charge, I guess, is running? 19 A Correct. 20 And was he, could you hear him say 21 anything or make any noisebecause you were so far away you 24 didn't hear anything or you saying that there was no 25 noise? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 181 1 A No, was so far away I could not hear 2 anything. 3 Okay. And let me ask you this, how is 4 your vision? 5 A Pretty good. 6 Okay. Do you wear glasses or contacts? 7 A No. 8 And how about your hearing, is that pretty 9 good as well? 10 A Yes. 11 All right. And so as you then see Mike 12 Brown begin to charge at the officer, how far does 13 he get before you said the officer fires a number of 14 shots? 15 A The officer is right here. I would say 16 Mike Brown gets to right there, even with the car 17 before the officer starts to fire. 18 Okay. And just for the record, when you 19 say even with the car, we are talking about the car 20 that's on this map? 2l A Yes. 22 That's in the map, it is just a random 23 vehicle that happen to be on that street when they 24 took this picture, correct? 25 A Correct. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 182 1 That car wasn't actually there that day? 2 A No. 3 Now, you have talked about there being a 4 car in that vicinity? 5 A Correct. 6 Okay. But we're just talking about the 7 car that's on the map? 8 A Yes. 9 So you say Mike Brown got about even with 10 that white car that's on the map? 11 A Yes. 12 And then how many shots did you think you 13 heard? 14 A Um, five to six shots. 15 All right. And could you see the officer 16 with his gun in his hand? 17 A Yes. 18 Are you sure it was the officer that was 19 firing? 20 A Yes. 21 And was he firing in the direction of Mike 22 Brown? 23 A Yes. 24 And then you said at that point does Mike 25 Brown continue to go forward or does he stop at that Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 183 1 point? 2 A He continues to come forward. 3 And you made mention, I'm not sure if it 4 was at that point, is it at this point that you 5 thought oh, my God, he's missed him at that close 6 range? 7 A Yes. 8 So when you heard those five or six shots, 9 did you see any blood on Mike Brown that you could 10 see? 11 A No. 12 Did you see him react in any way that 13 might make you think that he was hit, like, you 14 know, flinching or anything? 15 A It was more kind of a flinch, yes. 16 Okay. 17 A It was more of a flinch and, um, with my 18 thoughts of, I thought he was missing him because me 19 thinking if you get shot, you are going to go down. 20 With those multiple shots and he was still standing, 2l that's the reason why I thought he was missing. 22 Okay. And then, but you said he continued 23 to come? 24 A Correct. 25 Did he slow his pace or did he, was he Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 184 1 still at a charge? 2 A He gradually slowed his pace. And it 3 became, it came to a stop and when he stopped, the 4 officer ceased fire and he began to charge once 5 more, and that's when the officer with fatal rounds. 6 So when he became, when he stopped, about 7 how many seconds or fraction of seconds do you think 8 it was before he began to charge again? 9 A I would give it maybe two seconds. 10 Okay. And then how far did you get on 11 that, after stopping and then he's charging again, 12 how far did he get about, if you can estimate feet, 13 that's fine, or if you want to say how many steps he 14 may have taken, that's fine too? 15 A Maybe five to six steps. 16 And then when he, you said, and then the 17 officer began shooting again? 18 A Correct. 19 And about how many rounds do you think you 20 heard then? 2l A Three to four. 22 You said that was the fatal rounds, did 23 you see Mike Brown then 24 A Collapse. 25 collapse onto the pavement? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 185 i 1 A Correct. 3 2 And did you, after he collapsed, did the 3 officer continue to fire? 4 A No. 5 And did you see the officerMike Brown's body at that point? 7 A At that point, something else had caught 8 my attention, Mr. Johnson caught my attention at 9 that time when he ran across the street. 10 Okay. 11 A Okay. 12 At that point you are not necessarily 13 looking at the officer and Mike Brown, you are 14 focusing on Mr. Johnson? 15 A Correct. 16 And you recognized him as the shorter guy 17 who had been with Mike Brown that you had seen 18 earlier? 19 A Yes. 20 And so you said he ran around like in 2l front of the police vehicle? 22 A Correct. 23 And then ran toward this area where you 24 said you had seen this car? 25 A Yes. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 186 i 1 And this was a car that had been over i 2 here? 3 A Yes. 4 And had pulled around this horseshoe 5 driveway, correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Around Building Number 18? 8 A Correct. 9 And you heard Dorian Johnson say what? 10 A "He just killed him, he just killed him." 11 Okay. And then you said he then ran into 12 the back of the complex, did you ever see him again? 13 A No. 14 Okay. Were you, what did you do after you 15 saw that? 16 A After I saw that, I went into the 17 I was working at, and told the 18 what I just witnessed and stayed in for maybe 19 minutes speaking with and I came 20 back out and that's when I seen they were taping off 2l the scene. 22 So by the time you came back out, other 23 police officers were there? 24 A Yes. 25 Was the police officer who was involved in Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 187 1 the shooting, was his car still in the street? 2 A Yes. 3 And about, was it all Ferguson vehicle's 4 at that point or was County already there? 5 A Ferguson. 6 And then did you stand outside and kind of 7 watch what was going on for a while? 8 A Yeah, when I came back out, they were 9 taping off the scene. I came back, I walked down 10 here to right there where the body was pretty much 11 even with that street. And I was just, just in 12 shock and speaking with another resident. I don't 13 know if was a resident, another that was out 14 at the scene talking with 15 So you were speaking to somebody else who 16 was just a bystander that was looking at what had 17 happened? 18 A Correct. 19 You didn't know that person? 20 A No. 2l Did you later learn who it was? 22 A No. 23 Have you ever seen again? 24 A No. 25 Now, are you aware, I mean, did you notice Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 188 1 that day that there were people with cell phones 2 that were like filming or taping, not taping, we 3 don't use tape, but recording what was going on 4 while, the aftermath I'll call it? 5 A Yes. 6 Now, at some point in this investigation 7 have officers involved in the investigation that you 8 talked to, did they talk to you about whether OkayYes. 22 And is it the aftermath, so it is after 23 the shooting? 24 A Yes. 25 Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 189 i 1 2 A Yes. 3 All rightdid contact the FBI to figure out, 11 um, what precautions I needed to take. 12 Okay. So now you mention that you talked 13 to the police and gave a tape recorded interview 14 after this incident, correct? 15 A YesCorrect. 24 25 Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 190 i A Correct. i 2 So when is the first time you talked to a 3 police officer about having seen this? 4 A Monday, Monday. 5 So this happened on a Saturday, correct? 6 A Yes. 7 And immediately after you go back outside, 8 there is other officers there? 9 A Uh?huh. 10 Why didn't you go up to an officer then ll and say, hey, I saw the whole thing or most of it? 12 A Because when I went down on the scene 13 afterwards, speaking with that I was 14 speaking to. I wasn't giving a thorough accounting 15 on what I had witnessed to I was, I couldn't 16 say giving just a glimpse of what I witnessed 17 because just observing the chaotic, how it got so 18 chaotic so quick, and different point of views on, 19 it didn't add up to what I actually witnessed. 20 I felt very uncomfortable and I say I 2l would probably estimate I was down on the scene 22 maybe five to ten minutes. And just observing 23 everything and how the uproar became about so 24 quickly. 25 I began to walk back towards the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 191 1 that I was working at and those 2 that have their video recordings out, their 3 camcorder out and they addressed to me, addressed 4 me, 5 And I 6 proceeded on walking past them. And that's when 7 they turned towards me and asked me 8 9 And continued walking past and at 10 this point they are with the camera 11 still, and they became violent and, um, one of the 18 That's 19 because that's the way I felt at that time because 20 with everybody down there feeling like, hey, he had 2l his hands up. A lot of people didn't see what 22 actually went down and what I saw. 23 So I then turned and walked back 24 towards and that's when they started 25 to yell racial slurs at me and it was just, it was Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 192 1 just ignorant. 2 I felt uncomfortable, I fully felt 3 uncomfortable when I actually did go forward to the 4 police station because, I first called in Sunday 5 after I seen all the rioting. I just felt bad about 6 the situation. 7 I knew that I needed to come forward 8 to let the truth be told. And after seeing the 9 rioting, I called St. Louis County Police, I just 10 called the 911 and they took down my information 11 and, um, Monday morning I just felt like it wasn't, 12 I was just going to be pushed to the side. So I 13 felt like I needed to do more. 14 I called Ferguson Police Department, 15 I had to leave a message there and I still wasn't 16 settled about it. 17 So I went down to the police station 18 and I felt uncomfortable then just walking past all 19 the protesting that was going on, but I knew it was 20 the right thing to do. It is an unfortunate 21 situation, but I know God put me in this situation 22 for a reason. 23 Now, Witness Number 10, you said that when 24 you walked back, there were 25 Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 193 Yes. 5 Were these, did these appear to 6 be people that just lived in the area or were they 7 like reporters? 8 A They appeared to be people that lived in 9 the area. 10 Okay. And did you know 11 had you seen them before? 12 A No. 13 Ever seen them since? 14 A No. 15 Have you seen any recording of that 16 incident where they had appeared to be recording 17 you, have you seen that on the internet or anythingOkay. The person you were talking to 25 earlier was not recording? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 194 1 A No, he was not. 2 It was somebody else? 3 A Yes. 4 5 6 A Correct. 7 So when you were down after the shooting 8 and the crowd begin to build, could you hear people 9 saying words to the effect, he had his hands up, the 10 police killed him, they didn't need to shoot him, 11 that kind of stuff? 12 A Correct. 13 And is that the kind of things that you 14 were hearing that you said made you feel 15 uncomfortable? 16 A Correct. 17 And you came forward because you felt you 18 had to do the right thing? 19 A Correct. 20 MS. ALIZADEH: Anybody at this point, 2l Sheila? 22 A I came forward to bring closure to the 23 family and also for the police officer because, um, 24 with me knowing actually what happened, um, and 25 know it is going to be a hard case and a hard thing Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 195 i 1 to prove with so many people that's saying the a 2 opposite of what I actually seen. I just wanted to 3 bring closure to the family not thinking that hey, 4 this is, they got away with murdering my son. 5 I do know that there is corruption in 6 some police departments and I believe that this was 7 not the case. And I just wanted to bring closure to 8 the family. 9 Now, Number 10, do you live in Ferguson? 10 A No. 11 Okay. Have you ever had any experiences 12 with the Ferguson Police Department? 13 A No. 14 Do you know any Ferguson police officers? 15 A No. 16 Did you know this police officer that was 17 involved in the shooting? 18 A No. 19 Did you know Michael Brown's family or any 20 of his relatives before this? 2l A Um, yes, I did. It came about when was 22 standing outside during the aftermath, I recognized 23 his stepfather, Michael Brown's stepfather. At that 24 moment it didn't really sink in, I thought I 25 recognized him at that moment, but it came about Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 196 i 1 when I seen it in the papers, his name and that just a 2 confirmed that was him. But I haven't reached out 3 and talked to him or anything. 4 All right. Michael Brown's stepfather, 5 would you consider him a friend of yours? 6 A No. 7 You just know him? 8 A Yes. 9 And you haven't talked to any of the 10 family members of Michael Brown since this happened? 11 A No. 12 (By Ms. Whirley) With the stepfather, how 13 did you know him? 14 A (Redacted) 15 MS. ALIZADEH: Just hang on a second. 16 MS. WHIRLEY: Well, let me ask it another 17 way. 18 MS. ALIZADEH: Hang on a second. Did you 19 have something? 20 If you will excuse me, I don't know if you 2l have a question you want to ask me? 22 MS WHIRLEY: Knowing the stepfather, was 23 there a bad relationship or anything negative about 24 that. 25 A No Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 197 1 MS WHIRLEY: Okay. Now, could you put a 2 mark, not necessarily a mark, but use that pointer 3 and show us one more time where you were when the 4 first time you saw shots fired? 5 A on the corner. 6 (By Ms. Whirley) And you were standing 7 there? 8 A Yes. 9 And shots were being fired where, show us 10 that on the map? 11 A The truck was right about here. 12 (indicating) 13 How far away would you say that distance 14 is? 15 A I would give it 50 to 75 yards. 16 Yards, okay. And when the officer first 17 got out of the car, you said, was his gun drawn or 18 not? 19 A When he first got out of car, yes, his 20 guns was already drawn. 2l His gun was drawn? 22 A Yes. 23 As he ran pursuing Michael Brown, he was 24 not shooting, I recall you saying that, correct? 25 A Yes, correct. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 198 Michael Brown turns around and starts 1 2 charging him, you said that's when the shooting 3 started? 4 A Correct. 5 You couldn't hear what they were saying? 6 A No, ma'am. 7 When you say charge, could you demonstrate 8 what you saw? Show us what you mean by charging? 9 A (Indicating.) 10 Like running toward him quickly? 11 A Yes, in a tackle motion charge. 12 Okay. What was he doing with his hands? 13 A As a normal 14 You could see his hands? 15 A Yes. 16 Did you ever see a weapon or anything? 17 A No. When he first ran from the car, I 18 did, that's the only time I did hear something. I 19 thought I heard something metallic hit the ground. 20 I'm not sure what it was, that's the only time I did 2l hear something. 22 Now, when did you hear that? 23 A When Mike Brown came from out of the 24 vehicle and ran. 25 Okay. You could hear that, but you Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 199 i 1 couldn't hear what they were saying? i 2 A No. 3 And you never heard any conversation 4 between the officer and Mike Brown? 5 A No. 6 So when he stopped after the first round 7 of gunfire and turned around, you said he charged 8 and then the officer shot again or was that the 9 first round once he charged? 10 A The first round was when he was in the 11 car. 12 MS WHIRLEY: Okay. 13 A And after that, Mike Brown, he followed 14 pursuit of Mike Brown and Mike Brown stops and turns 15 and did some sort of body gesture and charged at the 16 officer. And that's when the second firing session 17 took place. 18 MS WHIRLEY: And after the first, not the 19 first shot in the car, but when he charged him and 20 the shots were fired, you said Mike Brown flinched 21 as if he might have been hit? 22 A Correct. 23 MS WHIRLEY: Okay. But he still charged 24 in the same manner that you showed us? 25 A He started, he like, I don't know he was Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 200 1 flinching, but still in a charge motion. 2 MS WHIRLEY: Was it slower or any 3 different? 4 A It appeared to be a slight difference. 5 MS WHIRLEY: Like maybe he was hit, that 6 was your impression? 7 A Yes, but at that time I'm not sure. I 8 thought he wasn't being hit because with me, with my 9 thoughts was if you are being hit that you are going 10 to fall or show some sort of I'm hit besides a ll flinch. That appeared to me, I don't know, dodging 12 or hit, I'm not sure. 13 MS. WHIRLEY: And can you show us, you 14 said that after he charged him a second time, he was 15 charging slower that time, but still charging, 16 correct? 17 A Correct. 18 MS. WHIRLEY: You said he collapsed, Mike 19 Brown collapsed after that second round or shot, 20 don't mean the one in the car, I guess it is the 2l third round, third time he is shooting he collapsed? 22 A Correct. 23 MS WHIRLEY: I don't want you to fall on 24 the ground or anything, I want you to like show us 25 like what he was doing with his hands as he was Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 201 1 collapsing. 2 A I cannot recall that. I just know he 3 collapsed. 4 MS WHIRLEY: Okay. You didn't really, you 5 couldn't see his hands when he was collapsing? 6 A I can't recall that. 7 Ms WHIRLEY: Okay. 8 A I know he was coming in a charging motion 9 still and the final rounds were being fired within a 10 charging motion and that's when he collapsed. 11 MS WHIRLEY: But you didn't see his hands 12 when he was collapsing or you don't remember seeing 13 his hands when he was collapsing. 14 A I did not see that. All I seen was the 15 charging motion and him being, coming as a threat. 16 And the final shots were fired and he collapsed, 17 that's all I seen was the collapse. 18 MS WHIRLEY: Was there anything blocking 19 your vision of seeing his hands when he was 20 collapsing? 2l A No. 22 MS WHIRLEY: You just don't remember 23 seeing his hands? 24 A No. 25 MS WHIRLEY: Okay. Can you show us on the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 202 1 map how close you were to Dorian Johnson, show us 2 where you were and where Dorian Johnson was when he 3 said, "they killed him, they kill him." 4 A Okay. I was still right there at the 5 corner of the And Dorian 6 Johnson came from somewhere over this way, and only 7 reason why I know that is because he had to cross 8 the street and it was in front of the squad car. So 9 he came from over this way and (indicating) 10 MS WHIRLEY: And that's where he was, show ll us, where was Dorian when he is saying, "they killed 12 him?" 13 A Right there. (indicating) 14 MS WHIRLEY: Right there. 15 A Yes. 16 MS WHIRLEY: Where was the police officer l7 and Mike Brown when they first started the pursuit, 18 the same general area? 19 A Yes. 20 MS WHIRLEY: But you couldn't hear Mike 2l Brown and the police officer saying anything? 22 A No, that's because, Dorian, he was yelling 23 it, like he just seen his friend die and he was just 24 yelling it loud. 25 MS WHIRLEY: And the police officer wasn't Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 203 yelling at Mike Brown as he was pursuing him? 2 A I'm not sure, I couldn't hear. 3 MS WHIRLEY: You couldn't hear anything? 4 A No. 5 MS WHIRLEY: OkayWHIRLEY: 10 ll A Yes. 12 MS WHIRLEY: Saying some stuff, what were 13 you saying? 14 A was saying that, um, he charged him, he 15 charged at him. The officer already had his gun l6 drawn on him and he charged at him and he shot at 17 him at least five to six times. And the seemed 18 to be surprised when he asked who shot him, I said 19 the police did. 20 MS WHIRLEY: All right. That's all I have 2l right now. 22 have a couple 23 questions, of course, You said that they 24 were violent, the that were asking you 25 about it afterwards, that they became violent. Did Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 204 they become violent towards you, in their words, in 2 their actions? 3 A Verbal. 4 Verbal. 5 A Verbal. 6 Verbal? 7 A Yes. 8 They called you names? 9 A Yes. 10 You said you heard a ll sound that was like metallic hitting the ground, you 12 don't know just because I know my friends, you don't l3 know that anything hit the ground, that's just what 14 it sounded like to you? 15 A Yes, correct. 16 When he was collapsing 17 you said you couldn't see his hands, that doesn't 18 mean you couldn't see his arms, correct? You could l9 tell the difference between him having his hands up? 20 A Correct. 2l And him having his arms 22 down. Just because you couldn't see his hands, 23 doesn't mean you couldn't see where they were? 24 A Correct. 25 Okay And you said Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 205 i 1 earlier that you didn't see anything in anyone's i 2 hands as far as Mr. Johnson or Mr. Brown? 3 A Correct, when I first saw him. 4 When you first saw them? 5 A Yes. 6 But you also said it is 7 because you were focused on their 8 A On their appearance. 9 On their appearance and 10 your surroundings? 11 A Yes. 12 You're not saying that 13 they didn't have anything in their hand, you just 14 didn't see it? 15 A Correct. 16 Okay. 17 If I 18 could dovetail off of 's original question 19 about the violence that was directed to you. If I 20 could ask you just a personal question, are you 21 22 A Yes. 23 You are, okay. 24 A Yes. 25 And this is like bringing Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 206 i 1 an extra level of conflict for you to come forward? 3 2 A Um, not really. Within my family 3 that's about it. They fear for my safety or our 4 family's safety, that's about it. 5 You said that there were 6 some racial epithets directed towards you, is there 7 anything that you can, you feel comfortable telling 8 us that was directed to, what was said to you? 9 A Um, they said you they 10 called me a and just racial ll slurs. l2 Did you at any time, if I 13 could ask, did you express the fact that you're 14 15 A No. 16 You did not? 17 A No, I just ignored it and kept walking 18 because I didn't want it to just blow up to 19 something even more because it is already tension in 20 the air. 21 Okay, thank you. 22 A No problem. 23 . In your 24 opinion, let's go back to the times when Michael 25 Brown stopped and turned around and allegedly began Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 207 1 to charge the police officer, is it in your opinion, 2 do you believe the police officer's life was 3 potentially in jeopardy at this point? 4 A Yes. 5 Thank you. 6 MS. ALIZADEH: Anyone else have a 7 question? 8 Could you 9 describe what vehicles were in the area while this 10 was going on, were there cars lined up behind the 11 police vehicle and you said that Dorian ran to a 12 vehicle that had been on the other side and then 13 drove around? 14 A There was only one vehicle on the street 15 within that distance between where the incident took 16 place, and that was the vehicle, a little Monte l7 Carlo and it came around after, I want to say when 18 the officer, before the officer fired, 1 mean not 19 fired, but I'm not sure at what point, I can 20 pinpoint at what point that they came around, but 21 they did drive around, come out of the, this curb 22 and drive around and stop right there. 23 Okay, thank you. 24 MS. ALIZADEH: Can I clarify, I just want 25 to ask you. You said it was a Monte Carlo? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 208 A Correct. 2 MS. ALIZADEH: Are you good about 3 recognizing makes and models of cars? 4 A Uh, yes. 5 MS. ALIZADEH: Have you ever had a Monte 6 Carlo? 7 A No. 8 MS. ALIZADEH: When you say it was blue, 9 are we talking dark blue, baby blue, do you recall? 10 A I cannot recall as far as the deep blue or ll any of that, I know it was a newer Monte Carlo. 12 MS. ALIZADEH: And you saw, that's the 13 only car you remember seeing there is a blue Monte l4 Carlo? 15 A Correct. 16 MS. ALIZADEH: Okay. l7 . Um, let's 18 go back to when you initially saw the struggle with 19 Michael Brown inside the car, where was Dorian or 20 could you tell where he was when this was going on? 2l A No. Like I said, I did not see Dorian 22 Johnson, um, after the fact, after Michael Brown was 23 collapsed in the street, and that's when he came 24 across the street in front of the squad car and 25 stopped right about there and yelled that he just Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 209 i killed him? That's the only time after first had 9 initial contact, well, not contact, but sight of LUMP Dorian Johnson. So did you ever see anything in Michael Brown's hands or Dorian's hand, I know you said initially when they came around the house, you didn't see anything, but what about during the struggle, did you ever see anything in 9 their hands? 10 A No. ll Okay. And you said you 12 heard one gunshot at the car? 13 A Correct. 14 And the rest were 15 A Down. 16 Down the road or whatever? 17 A Yes. 18 MS. ALIZADEH: Anyone else have any 19 questions? 20 So Witness Number 10, thank you for 2l appearing. If at any time in the future this grand 22 jury has additional questions for you, would it be 23 all right for me to contact you? 24 A Yes. 25 MS. ALIZADEH: That will end the testimony Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 210 1 of Witness Number 10. 2 (End of the testimony of Witness lO.) 3 MS . ALIZADEH: This is Kathi Alizadeh, it 4 is 1:33 p.m. on September 23rd. The grand jurors 5 are all 12 present, as well as myself and Sheila 6 Whirley and the court reporter who is taking down 7 everything. 8 We had a witness who was here and in the 9 waiting room. 10 MS WHIRLEY: We did have one witness, and ll is her name and we may play some of 12 that information because you had asked about 13 . We were here, we were running behind and 14 she left. I contacted, I tried to contact her to 15 get her back here and I'm not sure if she was 16 running too late for work or what, but we're going 17 to have to likely reschedule her because we also 18 have a 2:30 timeframe we are working with too. 19 So she's not going, you're not going to 20 hear from her, we were hoping to do it today. In 2l light of that, what we are going to do is let you 22 hear the recording from 23 MS. ALIZADEH: Witness Number l0. 24 MS. WHIRLEY: Witness Number l0, thank 25 you And then if we have enough time, you will hear Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 211 1 recorded statement and then when 2 see her, you will match the two together, all right. 3 MS. ALIZADEH: All right. SO at this time 4 I'm going to pass out a transcript of an interview 5 that was conducted on August by the County 6 Police Department and it is the interview of Witness 7 Number 10. And for that reason, again, we will 8 pause the audio recording that the court reporter is 9 doing right now while we are playing the statement. 10 The statement is contained on Grand Juror 11 Number 24. 12 As soon as you say we are ready, we will 13 turn off the audio recording that is happening now 14 and play the recorded statement of Witness Number 15 10. 16 Okay. Would you turn off the audio 17 recording at this time. 18 (This is the recorded statement of Witness 19 Number 10.) 2O DETECTIVE This is Detective 2l with the St. Louis County Police 22 Department's Bureau of Crimes Against Persons, 23 . Also present with me is Detective 24 of the Bureau of Crimes Against 25 Persons and we are at the City of Ferguson Police Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 212 1 Department in an interview room Mister, would you 2 say your name for the recorder, please? 3 WITNESS lO: (Redacted) 4 DETECTIVE Okay. And (redacted) 5 obviously, you realize this is being recorded, 6 correct? 7 WITNESS 10: Correct. 8 DETECTIVE Okay. And you're okay 9 with that? 10 WITNESS 10: Yes. ll DETECTIVE Okay. And this is in 12 reference to St. Louis County Complaint Number 13 14?43984 and Ferguson Police Department Complaint 14 Number 14?12391, which is an incident that occurred 15 on Canfield Drive on August 9th, 2014. 16 (Redacted), I'm going to get a little bit 17 of information from you here, okay? (redacted) 18 WITNESS lO: Correct. 19 DETECTIVE Okay. And spell your 20 last name? 2l WITNESS lO: (Redacted) 22 DETECTIVE Just like the 23 What is your date of birth? 24 WITNESS lO: (Redacted) 25 DETECTIVE What is your home Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 213 i 1 address? a 2 WITNESS lO: (Redacted) 3 DETECTIVE (Redacted) 4 WITNESS 10: (Redacted) 5 DETECTIVE And where's that at? 6 WITNESS lO: (Redacted) 7 DETECTIVE (Redacted) 8 WITNESS lO: (Redacted) 9 DETECTIVE And what's your cell 10 phone. 11 WITNESS lO: (Redacted) l2 DETECTIVE (Redacted) 13 WITNESS 10: Yes. 14 DETECTIVE And your social 15 security number? 16 WITNESS 10: (Redacted) l7 DETECTIVE (Redacted) 18 WITNESS lO: (Redacted) l9 DETECTIVE (Redacted) 2O WITNESS 10: Yes. 21 DETECTIVE And you're employed 22 where. 23 WITNESS lO: (Redacted) 24 DETECTIVE AS a 9 25 WITNESS 10: Yes Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 214 1 DETECTIVE Is there a business 2 address for that? 3 WITNESS lO: Um, this is the address, but 4 I don't, I'm not sure. 5 DETECTIVE Okay. You know a phone 6 number? 7 WITNESS 10: (Redacted) 8 DETECTIVE (Redacted) 9 WITNESS 10: Right where the 10 are at. WhereDETECTIVE there. 12 WITNESS lO: (Redacted) l3 DETECTIVE Okay. l4 WITNESS 10: Right before you go down the l5 l6 DETECTIVE (Redacted) l7 WITNESS 10: Yeah. 18 DETECTIVE Okay. Um, do you have 19 a phone number? 20 WITNESS 10: IS -- 2l DETECTIVE For employer. 22 WITNESS 10see. Let me see if I can pull it up. 24 DETECTIVE (Redacted) What is 25 your middle initial? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 215 i 1 WITNESS 10: (Redacted) i 2 DETECTIVE Okay. 3 WITNESS 10: I thought I had the office in 4 here. I ain't seeing it. 5 DETECTIVE That's okay. 6 WITNESS 10: All right. 7 DETECTIVE Okay. So, um, we 8 received a call from Ferguson saying that you were 9 here and did you come here 10 WITNESS 10: Yes, voluntarily. 11 DETECTIVE okay, okay. You 12 came here on your own? 13 WITNESS 10: Yes. 14 DETECTIVE And who did you talk to 15 initially? 16 WITNESS 10: Um, I'm not sure. It's a 17 police officer outside. 18 DETECTIVE Okay. And what did you 19 tell that officer? 2O WITNESS 10: I need to to speak with 21 someone about the, um, ongoing investigation about, 22 um, what happened, at Canfield to Mr. Brown. 23 DETECTIVE Okay. So after that, 24 I'm assuming they escorted you 25 WITNESS 10: Yes. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 216 i 1 DETECTIVE into the building a 2 then and you you waited for us; is that right? 3 WITNESS 10: Yes. 4 DETECTIVE Okay. Um, would you 5 please retell, and I'm just going to set the 6 recorder over there. Would you please just retell 7 your account of a, were you present when it happened 8 or 9 WITNESS 10: Yes. 10 DETECTIVE Okay. Would you just 11 retell your account of what took place? 12 WITNESS 10: Okay. Um, well, I walked 13 out, I was working at a right 14 where Canfield meets 15 The was actually on the on, it 16 would be, I would be facing, the police car would be 17 facing towards me and the 18 19 right there 20 DETECTIVE So, just so I 21 understand, uh, what you're saying, Canfield 22 Apartments, Canfield by in large runs east and west, 23 okay. If you were to travel west, uh, out of, on 24 Canfield, you would run into West Elorissant. 25 WITNESS 10: Okay. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 217 1 DETECTIVE Before you run into 2 West Florissant, you run into a area of 3 4 WITNESS 10: Correct. 5 DETECTIVE So is that the area 6 that you were working on. 7 WITNESS 10: Yes, I was working on the, 8 the on your, if you were traveling east 9 and going into Canfield, would be on your 10 ll DETECTIVE SO -- 12 WITNESS 10: The that's, well, 13 the considering you're going into 14 Canfield. It would be the 15 and it's an 16 And the police, um, as I was saying, I was going, I 17 was working at that and I walked 18 outside. I seen the two young guys walking down the 19 street on the same sidewalk I was on and 2O DETECTIVE Can I clarify just a 21 couple things? Roughly what time was this? 22 WITNESS 10: Roughly, I want to say 8:40, 23 I mean not 8:40, 11:40, 11:40 is when that, when I 24 first seen these two guys. And my initial thought 25 was, wow that's a big dude because Mr. Brown, Mike Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 218 1 Brown. My initial thought was he's a big guy. He's 2 tall and like stocky build, and that's it. 3 He he, they both walked past me. I 4 took went into I came back 5 outside to get some more stuff and I 6 looked down the street and I seen the police car at 7 a slant and I seen Mr. Brown in the window of the 8 police car. It looked, it appeared as they were 9 wrestling through the window. And one gunshot had 10 let off and Mr. Brown took off running. 11 And my first thought was like, oh, my 12 gosh, did I actually just witness a police officer 13 being murdered because it took a while for the 14 police officer to get out of the car and pursue the 15 suspect. 16 And I want to say maybe six seconds, but 17 it seemed like it was forever after the the first 18 gunshot. So the police officer exited the vehicle 19 with his weapon drawn, pursuing Mr. Brown. 20 Mr. Brown was quite a distance and he stopped. And 2l when he stopped, he didn't get down on the ground or 22 anything, he turned around and he did some type of 23 movement. I never seen him put his hands up or 24 anything. I can't recall the movement that he did. 25 I'm not sure if he pulled his pants up or whatever Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 219 i 1 he did, but I seen some type of movement and he i 2 started charging towards the police officer. 3 The police officer then returned fire, not 4 returned fire, open fire on Mr. Brownguess, the shots and, um, the distance between 6 him and Mr. Brown, it would have to be five to 7 ten yards. 8 And the shots that were fired was four, 9 five or six shots fired, and Mr. Brown was still 10 standing up. Um, and my thoughts was wow, he's 11 missing this guy this close, is he hitting him or 12 because Mr. Brown there was no reaction from him to 13 show that he was being hit. 14 Um, after that, Mr. Brown then paused, 15 he he he stopped running and when he stopped 16 running, the police officer stopped firing. And 17 then Mr. Brown continued, started again to charge 18 towards him and after that, the police officer 19 returned fire and, um, well, not returned, I'm using 20 the wrong term, he started to fire once more at himguess the rounds that were 22 fired then, it would be four to five more shots. 23 And after that, Mr. Brown collapsed and fell to the 24 ground. 25 DETECTIVE Okay. What happened Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 220 I then? 2 WITNESS lO: Um, what happened then after 3 that, um, I didn't see, it was, it was a blue Monte 4 Carlo, a newer model Monte Carlo two door. Um, it 5 was closer to the scene where the shooting was at, 6 that occurred. They then drove off and made a a 7 left into the apartments and drove around the 8 apartment and then came and stopped. 9 And, um, Mr. Brown's friend that he was 10 walking with earlier, I didn't see him the whole ll time that, um, this was all going on with a 12 confrontation with the police and the shooting and I3 everything. 14 At the end, after Mr. Brown had dropped, 15 and, um, I seen the, his friend come out of nowhere l6 and run across the street. And, um, said that Dog, 17 they they just killed him, they just killed him, 18 and he ran the back fields of Canfield, the back 19 open field. 20 And, um, I must say that also after the, 2l um, confrontation, after the gunshot when Mr. Brown 22 did run, I thought I heard something metal hit the 23 ground. And I'm not sure what it was, but I thought 24 I heard something hit the ground. 25 And, um, after that, I believe, I'm not Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 221 1 sure, um, if I went in to go tell the 2 people that I was working with that I just what I 3 witnessed. And I came back out and they were taping 4 the scene off and I decided, I went down there 5 closer to where the body was and I stayed down there 6 for maybe ten, five to ten minutes. And I was 7 speaking with the that was down there 8 on the scene. I was telling what happened and 9 after me telling what happened and I'm hearing 10 everybody, their side of the story, oh, the police 11 officer shot that kid for no reason. He had his 12 hands up. 13 And me knowing and seeing what actually 14 took place, that wasn't true. And there was 15 different sides to the story, and every side it 16 wasn't true. I felt uncomfortable in that 17 situation, so I decided to walk back to I 18 was at originally at. 19 And, um, while I was walking to the 20 had a video camera and they turned 21 towards me asking me, um, 22 23 But I don't think they 24 heard me what I had told the earlier. And 25 I responded as and just kept walking. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 222 1 And they still on just still video recording 2 me and saying, um, I 3 responded, 4 5 And after that, they they became, uh, 6 in an aggressive tone and um, was saying, 7 um, just called me other 8 names, racial and racist slurs to me. 9 And that whole time, well, before they 10 yelled the racial slurs, I yelled, um, back to them, 11 I said, 12 And after that, I just left it and went on 13 my way. 14 DETECTIVE Okay. I'm going to go 15 back and just ask you a couple clarifying questions, 16 okay. l7 Um, so, I guess, so let's first start off, 18 who were you working with, uh, that day? 19 WITNESS 10: I was working, um, for 20 And, um, I'm not sure of 21 um, that was there. I was hired as a 22 to come in and do 23 24 DETECTIVE So will you, was, you 25 were not working for (redacted) that day? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 223 1 WITNESS 10: No, no. 2 DETECTIVE You were doing kind of 3 a side job? 4 WITNESS 10: Yeah, doing a side job, yeah. 5 DETECTIVE Okay. And did you have 6 anybody with you that you were working with that 7 day? 8 WITNESS 10: NO. 9 DETECTIVE Okay. I guess when you 10 say you went in, oh, when you said you went in to ll tell the people you were working with l2 WITNESS 10: Yeah. 13 DETECTIVE you meant tell the 14 people 15 WITNESS 10: That that was the 16 17 DETECTIVE I gotcha. Okay. Who 18 were the there. 19 WITNESS 10: Like I say, I'm not sure what 20 their names are. 21 DETECTIVE Was it a female, a 22 male? 23 WITNESS 10: It was a 24 DETECTIVE Okay. And then, um, 25 you said that you saw, uh, two guys walking down the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 224 1 street, right? 2 WITNESS 10: Yeah. 3 DETECTIVE Do you remember what 4 they were wearing? 5 WITNESS lO: Um, if I'm not mistaken, 6 Mr. Brown had a tan, tan pants, a red hat, flip 7 flops, it might have, may have been tan shorts, 8 yeah, it had to be tan shorts. Because I'm not sure 9 of the color, I know they were shorts because his 10 socks drew my attention because they were bright ll yellow and, um, black, looked like marijuana leafs. 12 And, um, he had a red hat on. I'm not sure of the 13 shirt. 14 And his friend that was walking with, I'm 15 not sure what he was wearing, the only thing I can 16 pick up from him was he had, um, smaller dreads that 17 were, looked like the tips of the dreads was dyed, 18 uh, like a bleach, bleach dyed or whatnot. 19 DETECTIVE And so, um, Michael 20 Brown was the one that you thought to yourself, um, 2l that's a big guy? 22 WITNESS 10: Yeah, it is. 23 DETECTIVE Is that right? 24 WITNESS 10: Yeah. 25 DETECTIVE Okay. And which way Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 225 i were they walking? i 2 WITNESS 10: They were walking, you said 3 west, would be out to West Florissant? 4 DETECTIVE West, yeah, it's 5 towards West Florissant. East is towards the 6 complex. 7 WITNESS 10: Okay. So east, yeah, east. 8 They were walking east when I first, yeah, when I 9 seen them. 10 DETECTIVE How far away were they ll when you first saw them? 12 WITNESS lO: Um, when I first saw them, I 13 mean, I could have shook the guys' hand if I wanted 14 to. 15 DETECTIVE Okay. I6 WITNESS 10: That's how close they were. 17 DETECTIVE Okay. Do you know 18 either of these guys? 19 WITNESS 10: NO. 20 DETECTIVE Okay. Had you ever 21 seen them, one of them before? 22 WITNESS 10: NO. 23 DETECTIVE Okay. Uh, so they're 24 walking east and I don't, if I say something that's 25 incorrect, please correct me, okay? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 226 i WITNESS IO: Uh?huh. 2 DETECTIVE They're walking east 3 essentially in front of that you're 4 working at? 5 WITNESS 10: Yes. 6 DETECTIVE They continue east into 7 the complex? 8 WITNESS 10: Yes. 9 DETECTIVE Okay. And you said you 10 went inside to drop off equipment? ll WITNESS 10: Yes. 12 DETECTIVE Okay. And then when 13 you come back outside, right? 14 WITNESS IO: Uh-huh. l5 DETECTIVE You, if your, if 16 you are working on is on the side, if 17 you look to your then, it would be, you would 18 be looking into the complex; is that right? 19 WITNESS 10: Yes, I would be looking into 20 the east, east. 2l DETECTIVE Into the complex? 22 WITNESS 10: Yeah, yeah. 23 DETECTIVE or to the 24 would be looking into the complex? 25 WITNESS 10: Yeah, yeah. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 227 DETECTIVE Okay. And approximately 2 how far away were you at to where you saw 3 that police car at? 4 WITNESS 10: Okay, distance wise 5 DETECTIVE And if you don't know, 6 you know 7 WITNESS 10: It's a guess maybe, 100 yards 8 I would say, maybe less. 9 DETECTIVE Okay, all right. So 10 you look and you see the police car and where is the ll police car at? 12 WITNESS 10: It is in the middle of the 13 street at a slant. l4 DETECTIVE Okay. And what kind Of 15 car is it, do you know? 16 WITNESS lO: It's, um, I'm not sure what 17 type of car, but I know it is a truck, it's a truck. 18 DETECTIVE Okay. Um -- l9 WITNESS 10: Maybe like Suburban style or 20 that, a long truck, SUV. 2l DETECTIVE And that truck that's 22 parked at a slant would be facing which direction? 23 WITNESS 10: It would be facing west. 24 DETECTIVE West, okay. And 25 explain to me again what you see at that point? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 228 1 WITNESS 10: I see Mr. Brown leaned over 2 inside the police car, um, at maybe, I see his back 3 at his, um, probably below you, what you call, like 4 under your armpit. 5 DETECTIVE Beneath your armpits? 6 WITNESS 10: Yeah, a little bit deeper 7 than, right below your armpits. That's how much of 8 his body is inside the car. 9 DETECTIVE Okay. So you, when 10 you, you were using your hands, you went here and 11 then you kind of went here, which l2 WITNESS 10: Like when I seen this much of 13 his body outside the car, so the rest of his body 14 from here up is inside the car. 15 DETECTIVE Okay. And just for the 16 purposes of the recording, uh, so his feet are 17 where? 18 A On the ground. 19 DETECTIVE Okay. And he is 20 standing, uh, where at? 2l WITNESS 10: At the, uh, driver's door 22 DETECTIVE Okay. 23 WITNESS lO: of the police car. 24 DETECTIVE His feet are on the 25 ground, he's at the driver's door of the police car. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 229 i WITNESS 10: Yeah. i 2 DETECTIVE And, uh, he's leaning? 3 WITNESS 10: Inside the window. 4 DETECTIVE Instead the the. 5 WITNESS 10: The police car. 6 DETECTIVE Which, which window? 7 WITNESS 10: The driver's window. 8 DETECTIVE Okay. So he's leaning 9 inside the driver's side window. And and and 10 I'm not, obviously, I don't expect any of this to be ll exact, you know, down to the millimeter. l2 WITNESS lO: Uh?huh. l3 DETECTIVE But roughly armpit or 14 maybe a little bit lower? 15 WITNESS 10: Yeah. 16 DETECTIVE That upper portion of 17 his body is in the the window, is that a fair 18 statement? 19 WITNESS 10: Yes. 20 DETECTIVE Okay. And so, uh, is 21 the door opened, closed? 22 WITNESS 10: No, the door is completely 23 closed. 24 DETECTIVE Okay. And, uh, do you 25 see anybody in the driver's seat of that car? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 230 1 WITNESS 10: I I couldn't make it out, 2 I couldn't. All I seen was Mr. Brown's body. 3 DETECTIVE Okay. And what was his 4 body doing. 5 WITNESS 10: At that distance, I I I 6 couldn't tell. It looked like a confrontation and 7 all I could assume it was some type of confrontation 8 was going on in that car. 9 DETECTIVE Okay. Why why did 10 you assume there was a confrontation? ll WITNESS 10: Because afterwards the 12 gunshot, there was a gunshot, one gunshot, and he 13 he ran off. 14 DETECTIVE Okay. So, and again, 15 please correct me if I'm saying anything that even 16 remotely doesn't reflect what you're saying, I just 17 want to make sure I understand, okay? 18 You see him in the car, you can't 19 necessarily tell what's going on, but after hearing 20 the gunshot and you seeing him run off, you make an 2l assumption that there's some sort of confrontation 22 or conflict inside the car, right? 23 A Yes. 24 DETECTIVE Okay. So how, roughly 25 how long do you think that he is, that Michael Brown Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 231 1 is in the car? 2 WITNESS lO: Um, maybe at least ten 3 seconds from what I seen. 4 MS WHIRLEY: All right. It's at 2041, the 5 recording. We are going to stop the recording 6 because the witness is here and we would like to get 7 her on because we have time constraints. 8 Now is here and we wanted 9 to bring on her testimony. We'll look at her 10 statements later because of our time this afternoon, 11 but I will go get her, and I don't know exactly what 12 time it is now, what time do you have? It is about 13 1:59 p.m. Is he going to keep recording? 14 MS. ALIZADEH: Yes, and I just wanted to 15 say because we weren't recording at the time, we 16 interrupted the statement of Witness 10 because of 17 the next witness being here. What did you start it, 18 where did you say you stopped it? 19 MS WHIRLEY: At 204l. 20 MS. ALIZADEH: I'll make a note that I 2l have to fix that. 22 So we are going to just bring the next 23 witness in who needs to leave. 24 25 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 232 testify the truth, the whole truth, and 2 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, 3 deposes and says in reply to oral 4 interrogatories, propounded as follows, to?wit: 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY MS . WHIRLEY: 7 I'm Sheila Whirley, and Kathi Alizadeh is 8 also present, the grand jurors are present, and the 9 court reporter, introduce yourself to the grand 10 jurors, please? ll A I'm 12 All right, . Could you 13 spell your name and speak louder for us? 14 A I 15 16 All right. And that microphone is not 17 going to amplify your voice or make it louder, it is 18 just recording, so try to talk sort of loud like me, 19 please? 20 A I'm sorry, I'm soft spoken. 2l Okay. You know why we are here today, 22 2 23 A Yes, I do. 24 Tell us where you live in general, you 25 don't have to give your exact address unless you Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 233 1 want to? 2 A I live in 3 All right. Now, you recall August the 9th 4 of 2014, correct? 5 A Yes. 6 It was a Saturday? 7 A Yes. 8 You had occasion to be at Canfield Green? 9 A Yes. 10 Is that right? And does this map look 11 familiar? 12 A Yes, that's the Canfield Green Apartments. 13 That's the complex? 14 A Yes. 15 Represented on that map, and that's Grand 16 Juror Exhibit Number 25 for purposes of 17 identification. What time of day was it that you 18 went to Canfield? 19 A It was around noon?ish whenever I went. I 20 was supposed to be there a little earlier, I ended 21 up there at noon to pick up she works for 22 me. 23 Okay. So you were picking up an employee? 24 A Yes. 25 What do you do for a living? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 234 A I do marketing. 2 And are you a supervisor? 3 A Yes, I have a marketing firm on 4 5 It is your firm? 6 A Yes. 7 Okay. How many employees do you have? 8 A Right now I have three. 9 And was one of them? 10 A Yes. ll Okay. And you said her name was 12 how do spell that? 13 A 14 What's her last name? 15 A 16 Can you spell that? 17 A 18 okay. So you are 19 picking up and she lived in Canfield 20 Green? 2l A Yes. 22 Do you recall her address? 23 A I don't. 24 Okay. Can you see on this map, there 25 should be a pen there that you would operate, you Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 235 i I see how it works? i 2 A Yes. 3 Could you point on the map where 4 lived, first of all, do you know where she lived 5 looking at the map? 6 A Yes, she lives right here, this apartment 7 right here. (indicating) 8 9 A Yes. 10 Okay. Is that Canfield Drive? ll A Yes, Canfield Drive. 12 And coming to pick her up that day, did 13 you call her first or did you she know what time you 14 were coming? 15 A I called her. I called her when called her as I was coming down the 17 street right when I turned onto Canfield is when I 18 started calling her. 19 So when you were coming this way you 20 called her? 2l A Yes. 22 And did you talk to her? 23 A No. 24 What happened, did you leave her a 25 message? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 236 was pulling up and I'm calling 3 2 her phone, that's whenever I heard the tires 3 squeaking as I was turning. As I get closer, I see 4 a cop and the kid wrestling through the window. 5 Okay. So when you say you called her, but 6 you didn't talk to her, what happened in that call? 7 Did you just hang up, that's what I'm trying to 8 figure out? 9 A Yeah, I hung up the phone like, so I'm 10 trying to call her and when I see this, I start 11 going through my phone forgetting I'm on the call, 12 trying to get to my camera. And I never spoke with 13 her at all. By the time I look back at my phone 14 again, it was disconnected, the call had 15 disconnected. 16 Did you get to your camera? 17 A No. 18 Okay. Did you record any of this, you 19 know, what we are talking about, the shooting of 20 Michael Brown? 21 A No, I didn't record any of shooting. I 22 recorded right after it happened. 23 So tell us again, you are driving down 24 Canfield Drive and what do you hear? 25 A I hear tires squeaking. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 237 And then what? 2 A I didn't see anything at that time, but as 3 I get closer coming around this curve on Canfield, I 4 see the cop's SUV in the middle of the street and 5 the kid wrestling through the window with the cop. 6 And show us on that map where, Grand Jury 7 Exhibit 25, where approximately you saw the police 8 car? 9 A Okay. The police car was right here, in 10 this area right here. (indicating) ll Do you know which way it was facing? 12 A It was facing, coming the way that I was 13 coming. So it was facing going that away and I was 14 going that way. 15 MS. ALIZADEH: Let me ask, I think Sheila 16 at one point you made it look like she was going on 17 a certain direction, which direction were you 18 traveling? 19 A Is it okay if I can stand up? 20 MS WHIRLEY: Yeah, please. 2l A I was coming in on this direction, I was 22 coming in through this way. 23 MS. ALIZADEH: Okay. 24 A The car was facing going that way, I don't 25 know if it is east or west. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 238 Ms WHIRLEY: Okay. 2 (By Ms. Whirley) So what street is this 3 out here that you came off of to get onto Canfield 4 Drive? 5 A West Florissant. 6 West Florissant, okay. So you are coming 7 from West Florissant traveling east on Canfield 8 Drive? 9 A Yes. 10 And the police car was facing west? ll A Yes. 12 And it was, was it straight or what was 13 the, how was it situated? 14 A It was kind of catty?corner, it wasn't 15 straight, it was like a little over both sides of 16 the line, yellow line. 17 Okay, all right. Kind of in the middle of 18 the street? 19 A Yeah. 20 Tell us what you saw again? 2l A I saw the cop and the kid kind of like 22 wrestling through the window, it was like a tug of 23 war. The kid was kind of pulling out the, cop was 24 pulling in, like it was like going back and forth. 25 When you say the kid, who are you Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 239 i 1 referring to? i 2 A Michael Brown. 3 You know that is who it is, Michael Brown? 4 A Yes. 5 Had you known Michael Brown before this 6 day? 7 A No. 8 Had you ever met him? 9 A No. 10 Ever seen him? 11 A No. 12 Had you been to this Canfield Green 13 complex before? 14 A Yeah, I picked up a lot there since 15 she's moving, she's only been there over a month. I 16 picked her up a few times and dropped her off at 17 home. 18 She had only been living there 19 approximately a month? 20 A Yeah. 21 You had known her longer than that? 22 A Yes. 23 Okay. How long had she worked for you? 24 A She worked for me since January. 25 Okay. All rightGore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 240 1 war, as you put it, and then what happens? 2 A As I'm trying to get to my camera and my 3 phone, that's when the shot 4 You need to speak up louder, please. 5 A I'm sorry. As I'm trying to get to my 6 camera and my phone, that's when a shot came out and 7 I just got out of the way, I started trying to get 8 out of the way, and I went to the left side. 9 Where were you when you heard the shot? 10 A I was right here, like okay, they were 11 right here and I pulled right in front of here. 12 (indicating) 13 What kind of car were you inYes. 17 Okay. 18 A So whenever the shot came out, it came 19 from the car and I started turning this way, that's 20 when I saw the kid like yank away like this and take 21 off running. And I came around, parked right here, 22 got out, came across the grass. The kid was running 23 this way, the cop came behind him and was shooting. 24 I saw the kid's body jerk and turn around like this 25 with his hands up. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 241 1 Okayyou say you parked over here? 3 A Yeah, I pulled right here. 4 By Canfield Drive? 5 A Yeah. 6 In that parking lot? 7 A Yeah. 8 And were there any other cars on the 9 street? 10 A A_Monte Carlo right behind the officer's ll truck and I don't know, it was a black car that came 12 after a while, but I saw the back. But the whole 13 time, it was like, whenever I could get right here, 14 I saw the white car, I didn't see the white car 15 behind the SUV until I get right here. (indicating) 16 Okay. And it was a white Monte Carlo? 17 A Yes. 18 All right. So when you see, there's a 19 struggle at the car, you hear a shot, does the shot, 20 do you hear the shot when the officer is in the car? 2l A Yes. 22 Is Michael Brown still at the window when 23 you hear the shot? 24 A Yes. 25 Is anyone with Michael Brown, that you FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 242 1 know, that you see? 2 A At that time I didn't see anybody besides 3 him, but I saw someone kneeling by the white car, 4 the white Monte Carlo. 5 Okay. They were knelt? 6 A Like knelt down. 7 Okay, all right. But you didn't see them 8 do anything? 9 A I didn't see them together at all at the 10 time. 11 Okay. So when the shot goes off, Michael 12 Brown runs, show us again which way? 13 A He runs this way. 14 Okay. And the officer, what does he do? 15 A He comes behind him shooting. 16 So did you see the officer get out of the 17 car? 18 A I didn't see him exit the car, I was on 19 the other side of the car at the time. 20 Okay. So where were you when you saw the 21 officer shooting? 22 A I was coming across this grass and the 23 officer started pursuing Michael coming this way. 24 You could clearly see the officer running 25 after him? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 243 i 1 A Yes. i 2 And you could see the officer shooting? 3 A Yes. 4 Okay. And Michael is running and his back 5 is to the officer? 6 A Yes. 7 And the officer is shooting? 8 A Yes. 9 Do you have any idea how many shots were 10 fired by the officer? 11 A Not at all. 12 Okay. 13 A I didn't count that at all. 14 Okay. And then what happens after he is 15 shooting at the officer, I mean, the officer is 16 shooting at Michael Brown? 17 A I saw his body jerk and stopped and turned 18 around and put his hands up, and that's when the 19 officer continued to walk and shoot until he went 20 all the way down. 21 Okay. Can you hear anybody say anything? 22 A I can't hear anything from anybody. 23 Okay. And show us again where you are? 24 A At the time that he, Michael went down? 25 Yeah, that's right, let me make it clear Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 244 1 because you said, you showed us where you were when 2 you saw him running? 3 A Yes. 4 The officer is pursuing Michael, he is 5 shooting you said? 6 A Yes. 7 When Michael turns around, where is 8 Michael? He stopped running and he turned around? 9 A He was right here. (indicating) 10 And where are you? 11 MS. ALIZADEH: Wait a minute, can you 12 point again because I can't see where you are 13 pointing? 14 A Okay, I'm sorry, which part? 15 MS WHIRLEY: When Michael stops running 16 and turns around, where is he? 17 A He is right here. (indicating) 18 (By Ms. Whirley) Where are you? 19 A I'm right here coming across this grass. 20 How close would you say that is in your 21 opinion? 22 A I don't know how to measure by feet. 23 Okay. Look at me. Tell me when we're as 24 close as you were to where Michael was, if that's 25 possible in this room. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 245 i 1 A Okay. So I can say from me to Michael is i 2 right kind of like at her, where she is standing. 3 Where she is standing, you can see that 4 close? 5 A Yeah. 6 Okay. Now, he turns around and you say he 7 puts his hands up? 8 A Yeah. 9 Does he appear to be hit by any bullets or 10 anything? 11 A I didn't see any blood or anything until 12 it started pouring on the ground as he's laying 13 there. Whenever the bullets was hitting him, I was 14 thinking like are these rubber bullets. I can't say 15 exactly where he was hit. 16 Okay. 17 A I just saw the one in his face when he hit 18 the ground. 19 When he first turned around and had his 20 hands up, you couldn't really see whether he was 21 shot, you couldn't tell whether he was shot or not? 22 A No, I couldn't. 23 But you couldn't hear him say anything to 24 the officer? 25 A No. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 246 i 1 Was the officer saying anything to him? i 2 A I didn't hear the officer say anything to 3 him, I didn't hear conversation from either party. 4 Okay. So we know you were like from this 5 distance to that distance and can anybody give an 6 estimate of how far that would be? 7 About 20 feet. 8 (By Ms. Whirley) Now, from the officer, 9 how far was the officer from Michael Brown when 10 Michael Brown turned around and raised his hands, 11 the same, a similar distance or something different? 12 A Similar distance because I was closer to 13 the officer than I was to Michael when he turned 14 around. 15 Okay. So that's Michael 20 feet away or 16 so, I'm the officer, let's say, just for purposes of 17 the transcript. 18 A The officer was over that away. 19 Like this way? 20 A Yes. 21 How far? 22 A Like they were about that distance. 23 About where I am now? So another 20 feet 24 or so? 25 A Yeah, maybe so. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 247 1 Okay. You can see both the officer and 2 Michael Brown? 3 A Yes. 4 From approximately 20 feet away? 5 A Yes. 6 Okay. And if I didn't ask you this, how 7 close was the officer to Michael Brown, not you to 8 them, but the officer and Michael Brown, how close 9 were they? Were they closer than you were to them? 10 A They were closer to each other than I was 11 to them. 12 That's my question. Any idea how close, 13 like me and you again? 14 A I can't say exactly, it was movement. 15 Okay. 16 A So I can't say exactly like where they 17 stood at what point. 18 That's fair. 19 A They were constantly moving. 20 He turns around with his hands up and then 21 what does the officer do? 22 A He continued to come up on him. 23 Like show me? 24 A He just continued to come up on him and 25 shoot him. He never got like, he was further back Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 248 from him, but he kept shooting him until he fell 2 down to the ground. 3 Did Michael Brown ever move back or come 4 forward? 5 A Like he came forward. 6 He came forward. Did he come forward in a 7 charging motion? 8 A No, like he just went forward like his 9 body was just going down and he was shooting him. 10 So from where you were, it didn't appear ll that Michael Brown was threatening the officer? 12 A No, no. 13 You didn't think 14 A No, he wasn't coming towards him whenever 15 he turned around. He just start like, as soon as he 16 turned around like, that's whenever like the bullets 17 start hitting him. I can't say exactly where, but 18 he just started going down from that point. 19 Okay. Did it appear at any time that 20 Michael Brown had a weapon? 2l A No, I couldn't see anything in his hand 22 while he was running. I can't even say where his 23 hands were at this point. 24 Okay. I was going to ask you that 25 question when he was going down, did you see his Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 249 i 1 hands? a 2 A Yeah, they were, they were the whole time. 3 (indicating) 4 His hands was up when he turned around, 5 when he was going down you said the officer was 6 shooting at him? 7 A When he went down, he went down to the 8 ground like this. (indicating) 9 Okay. And from your perspective, in your 10 opinion, you didn't think that the officer was ever, ll his life was not threatened? 12 A I can't say, before I pulled up to this 13 car, I can't say what happened before I got there. 14 Right. 15 A So I don't know what happened between them 16 before I pulled up, but I can only say what I saw. 17 From what I saw, he was trying to get away, he was 18 pulling away at the window. 19 Okay. And you saw it from the time that 20 he ran from the car window until he laid dead on the 21 ground? 22 A Yes. 23 And between that timeframe, he never 24 appeared, in your opinion, to be threatening the 25 officer? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 250 1 A No, he was trying to get away from what I 2 saw. 3 MS WHIRLEY: Okay, Kathi? 4 MS. ALIZADEH: Yeah. Hi, 5 A Hi. 6 MS. ALIZADEH: I know we haven't met, my 7 name is Kathi Alizadeh, I'm with the prosecutor's 8 office as well. 9 A Uh-huh. 10 MS. ALIZADEH: Miss Whirley and I are 11 working together on this investigation, so we kind 12 of tag team. It is not that I'm asking you certain 13 questions and she's asking you certain questions, 14 but I want to clarify something here. So when you 15 say, I'm going to use this pointer, and you tell me 16 if I'm right. You said the officer's car was 17 somewhere around in here, correct? 18 A Yes. 19 MS. ALIZADEH: And you came in from this 20 direction? 21 A Yes. 22 (By Ms. Alizadeh) And then you turn around 23 this horseshoe, which is Canfield Drive, correct? 24 A Yeah, I turned into here and I didn't go 25 all the way around it. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 251 1 Did you park right, like right around 2 here? 3 A Yes, that's where I parked. 4 Okay. And then you walked through the 5 grass? 6 A Yes. 7 Now, you said that Michael Brown was 8 running in this direction, correct? 9 A Yes. 10 So that is down Canfield Drive, and he is 11 running towards Copper Creek Court, this is Copper 12 Creek Court right here? (indicating) 13 A Yes, he never made it that far. 14 You said he never made it this far? 15 A Yes. 16 Which is, I've got the laser pointer, 17 right on the corner of Canfield Drive and Copper 18 Creek Court, he never made it that far? 19 A Yeah. 20 And so you say that at the location where 2l he ended coming, you know, came to rest, his body 22 was in the street? 23 A Uh?huh. 24 Um, how much distance farther had he run 25 before he fell down into the street, do you know Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 252 1 what I'm saying? So he runs and then he turns 2 around? 3 A Uh-huh. 4 And does he take any steps or come towards 5 the officer at all? 6 A Whenever he stopped and turned around at, 7 that's where he fell dead at. 8 Okay. 9 A I didn't see him take any more steps. 10 Let me ask you this, is it possible as you ll were trying to make your way in this direction and 12 watching what was going on, you could have missed 13 him being close to this corner to where he would 14 have come 20 feet back toward the officer? 15 A No, I can't. So whenever I was over this 16 way, I saw him running past here, but for me to come 17 across here and him to come all the way, that's not 18 enough time I don't think. I didn't see him go that 19 far, not at all. Because whenever I came across 20 this, whenever I saw the officer coming this way and 2l he was still coming right there, so he never made it 22 that far. 23 Okay. So let me tell you something, go 24 ahead and sit down. So as you park your car, do you 25 recall which slot you were in right here? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 253 1 (indicating) 2 A No, I don't. I was right in one on that 3 side though. 4 On what side? 5 A On the side. 6 Closet to the street? 7 A Yes. 8 Closest to Canfield Drivethose three, I can't lO remember exactly where I parked. ll From where you were parking and you have 12 to get out of your car, is it possible that you lose 13 sight of him for a time period or that you can't see 14 from your location to where he could have been at 15 that corner? 16 A No. 17 Okay. So let me ask you this, have you 18 been out on that street since then? 19 A No, I don't. 20 Okay. Since then you haven't seen the 2l flowers and memorial? 22 A I seen pictures in the news and stuff like 23 that, not myself actually being there, no. 24 Do you have any reason to know why Michael 25 Brown's blood might have been located in this area? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 254 1 A No. 2 He came to rest right about here, would 3 that be fair to say? 4 A Yeah. 5 Right, almost right across from 6 Caddiefield Drive? 7 A Yes. 8 So you don't know how it would have been 9 possible for his blood to be 20 and 22 feet that 10 direction toward Copper Creek Court? ll A No, I don't. 12 Okay. Is it possible that you in trying 13 to get out of your car, were you dressed for work? 14 A Yes, I was. 15 Were you wearing heelskhakis and a T?shirt. 17 Okay. So is there, is it possible that, 18 you know, you trying to run through the grass or get 19 in this direction, you missed a part of that? 20 A I can't see me missing that part because 21 whenever I was coming across, I still had sight of 22 them. I didn't see him go that far. 23 Okay. But you say you saw him turn 24 around? 25 A Yes Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 255 i 1 And from the point he turned around, he a 2 didn't really go any further closer to the officerhad his hands up at that point? 5 A Yes. 6 Okay. That day, August 9th, pretty hot 7 outside? 8 A Yeah. 9 Did you have your car windows up and the 10 air conditioner onwork van, so 12 had windows down. 13 Okay. You had the windows down? 14 A Yes. 15 When you pulled in here and you saw 16 Michael Brown and he was struggling with the 17 officer, or what was your description? 18 A It was like a wrestling. 19 Wrestling. So he's at the officer's car 20 window? 21 A Uh?huh. 22 And do you see any part of Michael Brown's 23 body inside the police vehicle? 24 A Like maybe his arms and stuff going back 25 and forth through the window, like being pulled back Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 256 i 1 and forth. i 2 Okay. How about his head, did you ever 3 see his head in the window? 4 A I saw his head in the window, but not like 5 kneel down into the window kind of thing, it was 6 like kind of pulled back and forth like at the 7 window. 8 So Michael Brown, do you know how tall he 9 was? 10 A No, he's really tall though, he was a man 11 when I first saw him, I didn't know he was a kid. 12 He is taller than the roof of the vehicle, 13 correct? 14 A Yes. 15 So in order for his head to be in the 16 vehicle, he would have to have been at some point l7 bent over a little bit, correct? 18 A Yeah. 19 His head couldn't 20 A Yeah. 2l Right, right. 22 A It went, yeah. 23 And you said that you thought his head 24 might have been in the vehicle at some point? 25 A Yeah, coming like back and forth through Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 257 the window. 2 Okay. Could you see anybody if there was 3 anybody hitting anybody else? 4 A I couldn't see that. 5 Couldn't tell? 6 A No. 7 Okay. And how many seconds from the time 8 that you pull up and you see this going on at the 9 vehicle to the time that Michael Brown is lying in 10 the street? ll A I don't know. 12 Can you give me an estimate? 13 A It was less than two minutes. 14 Okay. And just to be clear, you heard one 15 gunshot while Michael Brown was by the vehicle? 16 A Yes. 17 And then he runs and the officer chases l8 him while firing his weapon? 19 A Uh?huh. 20 Can you give me an idea how many times the 2l officers fires his weapon while he is chasing him? 22 A No, I can't. I don't know exactly, it is 23 about five or six times. 24 Okay. And then does he continue to fire 25 as Michael Brown is turning around, or is there a Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 258 I pause in the gunshots? 2 A There was a pause. 3 Okay. So Michael Brown, does the pause 4 happen when he turns around or before or after? 5 A Like during the time, I can't say exactly 6 when the pause happened because there were several 7 pauses. I can't say this happened and then a pause, 8 this happened and then a pause, I wasn't paying 9 attention like when the gunshots came and when it 10 stopped. ll Okay. And I know, it is tough, I mean, 12 this is all very chaotic, and you're seeing 13 something, you probably can't even believe what you 14 are seeing, right? 15 A Yeah. 16 So as best we can, you know, everybody 17 that says that they saw this we are trying to get as 18 many details as we can out of them. 19 A Uh?huh. 20 I'm not here to say one person is right, 2l and one person is wrong, okay. Just the best of 22 your recollection. 23 You said you maybe heard how many 24 shots, five or six shots as he was running? 25 A Yeah, more than five or six shots. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 259 i 1 More than five or six? 3 2 A Yeah. 3 And then at some point there is a pause in 4 the gunfire and then you hear more gunfire? 5 A Yes. 6 How many guesstimates would you say you 7 heard then? 8 A Probably four or five more, I don't know. 9 Okay. And then after that round of 10 gunfire, do you hear any more gunshots? ll A No, afterwards, no. 12 So it is that last round of four or five 13 gunshots that Michael Brown then collapses in the 14 street? 15 A Yeah. Around about that many times, I 16 can't say exactly how many times he shot each time 17 at all. 18 Okay. 19 A I never counted. 20 Okay. And that's fair. Did you ever see, 2l after Michael Brown went down on the pavement, did 22 you ever see the officer shoot him again? 23 A No. 24 Did you see the officer go up to him? 25 A Huh?uh. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 260 1 Okay. At some point did you see Dorian 2 Johnson running away ever? 3 A I didn't see him. Only time I saw him was 4 on the side of that red car, I didn't look back to 5 see him at all. I didn't see him any more after. 6 On the side of what car? 7 A At the side of the little white car. 8 The Monte Carlo? 9 A The Monte Carlo. 10 You didn't see where he went after that? ll A NO, I didn't. 12 Did eventually, did come down from 13 her apartment? 14 A I went upstairs to her. 15 Did you girls eventually go down to the 16 street? 17 A I went, I came down whenever the officer 18 said it was okay to come down, because the 19 investigators were there, they wouldn't even let me 20 come down at all, and they told us we had to stay up 21 on the porch because they were trying to block it 22 off, and we had to stay up and they were applying 23 the tape. 24 While the officers still had things taped 25 off, did you eventually come down? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 261 1 A No, never. 2 Never did? 3 A I came down when they investigator got 4 done talking to us. 5 Did you ever use your phone to tape 6 anything or record anything? 7 A I did. 8 And that's when you are on the ground, 9 correct? 10 A That was whenever balcony. 12 Okay. So you went up to 's 13 apartment and did she stay upstairs too or did she 14 ever go downstairs? 15 A I don't remember her going downstairs, I 16 can't say for sure, but I never looked at that 17 point. We were walking back and forth, up and down 18 the steps. We were having two different 19 conversations on our phone, we were both crying. I 20 don't remember her going down, but I know I didn't 21 go down. 22 Okay. So this number five is her 23 building, correct? 24 A Uh?huh. 25 Do you enter her building off of this Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 262 1 Canfield Drive horseshoe? 2 A No. 3 You enter 4 A Those steps right there. 5 Right here? 6 A Yeah. 7 Right in front of Canfield Drive, right 8 across from where Michael Brown's body was, correct? 9 A Uh?huh. 10 So after this happened, how long did you ll remain out here before you went inside the 12 apartment? 13 A I went straight upstairs to her balcony. 14 Okay. And her balcony is on the front of 15 the building? 16 A Yes. 17 Third floor? 18 A Yes. 19 Did the two of you, did she let you into 20 her apartment, was she inside when you went to her 2l apartment? 22 A She was standing on the balcony with her 23 phone out recording and she was trying to say, I 24 just saw him kill him. I said, yeah, I saw him too. 25 And she was crying, I got on the phone I called my Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 263 1 fiancee and said, I just saw the incident. 2 Okay. But she was in the apartment when 3 you got there? 4 A She was on her balcony, yes. 5 You remained up there? 6 A Yeah. 7 You went upstairs? 8 A We remained, we walked up and down the 9 steps a couple of times, both on our phones and we 10 stayed up there. ll Okaystayed up there. I don't 13 think she ever went down, the cops wouldn't let us 14 come down. 15 As far as you know, she stayed up there 16 with you too? 17 A Yes. 18 MS. ALIZADEH: I don't have anything else. 19 MS WHIRLEY: Questions? Anybody? 20 You did talk to a police officer that day, 2l give a statement to the police officer the same day 22 as the shooing? 23 A Yes. 24 MS WHIRLEY: Like within an hour or so of 25 the shooing. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 264 A Yes. 2 MS WHIRLEY: Okay. 3 MS. ALIZADEH: And you have made numerous 4 statements like in the media, correct? 5 A Uh?huh, yes. 6 MS. ALIZADEH: And then recently you were 7 interviewed by the FBI, correct? 8 A Yes. 9 MS. ALIZADEH: Other than the statement 10 you made that day to the County Police, and the ll statements you've made in the media and the 12 statement you made to the FBI, have you ever made a 13 statement to anybody else about this? 14 A No. 15 MS. ALIZADEH: Other than talking amongst 16 your friends or with your friends? 17 A No, that's it. 18 MS. ALIZADEH: Pardon me? 19 A No, that's it, I haven't. 20 MS. ALIZADEH: Okay. And does 2l still work for you? 22 A Yes. 23 MS. ALIZADEH: Have you, other than the 24 day that this happened, do you guys discuss this 25 together? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 265 i 1 A We talked about it the other day after the a 2 FBI, after we saw the FBI in the office, and we were 3 just talking about how it changed our life and what 4 is going on with it. 5 MS. ALIZADEH: Is there any information 6 that you have or anything that we didn't ask you 7 maybe that you think is important for this grand 8 jury to know? 9 A No, not that I can think of. 10 MS. ALIZADEH: Okay. If you find ll something out or there is something important that 12 you know of, will you contact us or contact your 13 attorney and have him get ahold of us so we can 14 learn that? 15 A I will. 16 MS. ALIZADEH: All right. No further 17 questions. 18 MS WHIRLEY: That will end the testimony 19 of 20 (End of the testimony of Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 266 i 1 a 2 3 State of Missouri 4 SS. 5 County of St. Louis 6 l, a Licensed Certified Court 7 Reporter by the Supreme Court in and for the State 8 of Missouri, duly commissioned, qualified and 9 authorized to administer oaths and to certify to 10 depositions, do hereby certify that pursuant to 11 Notice in the civil cause now pending and 12 undetermined in the County of St. Louis, State of 13 Missouri. 14 The said witness, being of sound mind and being 15 by the grand jury first carefully examined and duly 16 cautioned and sworn to testify to the truth, the 17 whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case 18 aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown in the 19 foregoing transcript, said testimony being by me 20 reported in shorthand and caused to be transcribed 21 into typewriting, and that the foregoing page 22 correctly sets forth the testimony of the 23 aforementioned witness, together with the questions 24 propounded by counsel and grand jurors thereto, and 25 is in all respects a full, true, correct and Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 267 complete transcript of the questions propounded to and the answers given by said witness. LUMP I further certify that the foregoing pages contain a true and accurate reproduction of the proceedings. I further certify that I am not of counsel or attorney for either of the parties to said suit, not related to nor interested in any of the parties or 9 their attorneys. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 268 COURT MEMO 2 3 4 5 State of Missouri vs. Darren Wilson 6 7 8 CERTIFICATE OF OFFICER AND 9 STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES 10 ll DEPOSITION OF Grand Jury, Volume VI 12 13 9/23/2014 14 Name and address of person or firm having custody of 15 the original transcript: 16 17 St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office 18 100 S. Central Ave. 19 Clayton, MO 63105 Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 269 ORIGINAL TRANSCRIPT TAXED IN FAVOR OF: LUMP St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office 100 S. Central Ave. Clayton, MO 63l05 Total: Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume VI September 23, 2014 Page 270 1 Upon delivery of transcripts, the above 2 charges had not been paid. It is anticipated 3 that all charges will be paid in the normal course 4 of business. 5 GORE PERRY GATEWAY LIPA REPORTING COMPANY 6 515 Olive Street, Suite 700 7 St. Louis, Missouri 63101 8 IN WITNESS WHEREOE, I have hereunto set 9 STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES 10 my hand and seal on this day of 11 Commission expires 12 13 Notary Public Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by