Case: State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII Date: October 28, 2014 This transcript is printed on 100% recycled paper 515 Olive Street, Suite 300 St. Louis, MO 63101 (314) 241-6750 1-800-878?6750 Fax: (314) 241-5070 Email: schedule@goreperry.com Internet: State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 1 STATE OF MISSOURI VS. DARREN WILSON GRAND JURY October 28, 2014 VOLUME XVII Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury Volume XVII State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 28, 2014 owe-I?Page 2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF ST. LOUIS COUNTY STATE OF MISSOURI STATE OF MISSOURI VS. DARREN WILSON The following is a hearing before the Grand Jury of St. Louis County, at the offices of St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office, 100 South Central Avenue, in the City of Clayton, State of Missouri, on the 28th day of October, 2014, before FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 Grand Jury Volume XVII State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 28, 2014 owe-I?Page 3 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: FOR THE STATE: Ms. Kathi Alizadeh Ms. Sheila Whirley Assistant Prosecuting Attorneys for St. Louis County 100 South Central Avenue, 2nd Floor Clayton, MO 63105 (314) 615-2600 FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 5 GRAND JURY HEARING VOLUME XVII 2 MS. WHIRLEY: Good morning. Today is 3 October 28th, it is approximately 8:39 a.m. This is 4 Sheila Whirley present, and also the 12 grand jurors 5 are here and the court reporter, is here. 6 Kathi Alizadeh is here, but has stepped out 7 momentarily. We are going to start out the morning 8 with the statement of . You have the 9 transcripts. It is on Grand Jury Exhibit Number 49. 10 (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 49 11 marked for identification.) 12 MS. WHIRLEY: I will play approximately 20 13 something minutes. She has another statement that 14 goes 40 something minutes. We are actually waiting 15 on her to come that's why we are going to go ahead 16 and do the statements. She was supposed to be here 17 at 8:30. Kathi is going to check on that and she 18 had not arrived before we came in this morning. So 19 we are still waiting on her. So that's the way we 20 will start the morning. with that bit of an 21 introduction if you can pause the recording. 22 (This is the playing of the interview of 23 -) 24 MS. WHIRLEY: All right. That was the 25 first statement by We have another Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 6 1 statement by . I understand she is on 2 her way. There was a mixup with transportation, but 3 she's on her way. This one is, I think, 4 approximately 42 minutesinterview that was conducted on September the 25th 6 of 20l4. I'm passing out the transcripts. The 7 actual recording is on Grand Jury Exhibit Number 36, 8 and we will play that as soon as the transcripts are 9 distributed. 10 (Playing of the second interview of II .) 12 MS. WHIRLEY: That concludes the second 13 interview of . We will take a break, 14 you probably need one and then we'll start with her 15 testimony when we resume. 17 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to 18 testify the truth, the whole truth, and I9 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, 2O deposes and says in reply to oral 2l interrogatories, propounded as follows, to?wit: 22 EXAMINATION 23 BY MS. WHIRLEY: 24 I'm Sheila Whirley and these are the 12 25 grand jurors. You met Kathi Alizadeh and the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 7 1 court reporter, sits next to you. 2 Please introduce yourself to the 3 grand jurors and spell your name for us? 4 A Hi. My name is last 5 name 6 Okay. you know why we're here, 7 the shooting of Michael Brown. Did you know Michael 8 Brown? 9 A No, I didn't know him. I seen his cousin, 10 I think that's the one that has the dreads. I seen 11 him a couple times, but I didn't know him. 12 We're going to ask you to speak up. I 13 generally stand back here so you and I can have a 14 conversation loud enough for everybody to hear, 15 okay? 16 A Okay. 17 And that microphone is not going to help 18 you be louder, so you are going to have to raise 19 your voice, okay? 20 I understand what you said about 21 Michael and the person that was with him, had you 22 seen Michael Brown before that day? 23 A Probably once. 24 Okay. When you saw him, did you talk to 25 him or anything? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 8 A No, we didn't talk or anything. You lived in Canfield Green Apartments 2 3 back on August 9th of 2014; is that correct? 4 A Yes, ma'am. 5 All right. There you go. All right. So 6 how long did you live there? 7 A Since Valentine's Day. 8 So February 14th of that year? 9 A Yes. 10 Of this year. Show us on the map, you see ll that map, that's Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25 and 12 there's a laser pointer right near you somewhere. 13 You know how to use it, there's a little button, 14 there you go. And you push that button down, there 15 should be a red light if you push. 16 A To show where I live? 17 I want you to show us where you lived on 18 August 9th, 20l4. I don't see the red light. 19 A I'm trying to recognize the map. 20 Get oriented to the map. So does the map 2l help you out? 22 A Yeah, I see it, my apartment is right 23 here. (indicating) 24 So it is like 25 A Yes. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 9 1 All right. Now, tell us what you did that 2 morning, what time did you wake up that Saturday 3 morning? 4 A That morning I woke up at probably, um, 5 like 9:00. I was supposed to be expecting my 6 boyfriend, the mother of his kids to bring his child 7 over that day. 8 Was your boyfriend there with youwork. 10 Okay. So when you, did the girlfriend ll bring the child over? 12 A She had brought him over later. I had a 13 whole bunch of errands library to return a movie. 15 Okay. You went to the library. What 16 library did you guy to? 17 A 18 Did you walk or drive? 19 A I caught the bus up there, but I didn't 20 have no cash, I had to walk back. 2l Was it a pretty long walk? 22 A Uh?huh. 23 Okay. So what time were you walking back 24 from the library? 25 A Um, I was coming down Canfield probably at Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page l0 about 12:20, something like that. 2 Noon?ish? 3 A Yeah. 4 And on this map, can you tell that West 5 Florissant is over here? 6 A Yes. 7 And were you walking from West Florissant? 8 A Yes, ma'am. 9 And tell us where you were walking when 10 you first noticed something going on with Michael ll Brown? 12 A Uh, I was probably about right here by 13 these trees. (indicating) 14 Okay. 15 A Because I had paused, I saw a police car 16 sitting over here. 17 You've got to talk a little louder. 18 A I'm sorry. Sitting near the lease office 19 with the lights on, you usually don't see a police 20 car just sitting in Canfield. 2l Okay. Where is leasing office, do you see 22 that on the map? 23 A Right here. (indicating) 24 Okay. That's the leasing office. 25 MS. ALIZADEH: Could you point at it again FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page ll because I was just looking down. 2 A I'm sorry. It is right here. 3 (indicating) 4 (By Ms. Alizadeh) Building 1? 5 A Yes, ma'am. 6 All right. So you pause in that area and 7 you said you saw a police car with its lights on? 8 A Yes. 9 What do you mean by its lights on? 10 A Like, uh ll The head bar? 12 A Yes, the little red and blue light the vehicle? 15 A Yes. 16 Not the lights that help you see at night? 17 A No. 18 And the lights that were on, what kind of 19 vehicle was it? 20 A It was like the big, I don't know what 2l kind, like SUV. 22 Okay. What color? 23 A A white. 24 But it was a marked police car? 25 A Yes. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 12 1 Okay. You could see that from Building 1 2 area? 3 A Yes. 4 Then what? 5 Um, so I paused like right about here, 6 right by these trees just to see what was going on 7 because I saw the police car had backed up and he 8 like backed up at a slant, like to the left so that 9 he ended up in the middle of the street. 10 So all the cars that was next to me 11 like backed up right here was just sitting there. I 12 sat there to just to try to see what is going on. 13 Did you see the car when it backed up or 14 when you first noticed it had backed up? 15 A No, when I first noticed it was straight. 16 The car was just straight. It was sitting right 17 there, the car was facing towards West Florissant. 18 Okay. 19 A There was the two boys, they were like 20 behind the car kind of like, like if he would of 21 continued to talk to them the way they was walking, 22 he would of had to back up to follow them. They was 23 like walking away from his car. So he backed up at 24 a slant going to the left to try to like block them 25 off. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 13 1 Okay. Can you describe the two boys that 2 were walking that he backed up? 3 A Yeah, there was a big, really big, I 4 didn't know he was that young. He looked like he 5 was in his 20s and his friend was real skinny with 6 dreads. He looked really young. 7 Do you recall what the big guy had on? 8 A I remember he had on a white T?shirt that 9 was about it, like tan pants. 10 Was he wearing anything on his headOkay. 13 A A red Cardinals hat. 14 A_Cardinals cap? 15 A Uh?huh. 16 And then the guy, you said he had dreads 17 and he was smaller? 18 A Yes. 19 Do you recall what he was wearing? 20 A Looked like he had on a gray, like a dark, 21 gray shirt. 22 Okay. 23 A I don't remember what kind of pants or 24 anything. 25 Okay. And you said you had, you had seen FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 14 1 the smaller guy before? 2 A Yeah, I had seen him before. 3 But not the big guy? 4 A No. 5 We know today that the big guy is Michael 6 Brown, correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Okay. And that's who you saw? 9 A Yes. 10 So when the car back?back, did it 11 back?back like hurriedly or slow or what fashion did 12 the car back?back? 13 A It was kind of like a fast, it was quick 14 like. I don't know how to explain it. 15 Okay. That's fine. Did it appear to 16 touch the two guys that it back toward? 17 A It looked like it did. I'm not saying 18 that it did, but the way they jump back, like they 19 were in shock like. 20 So you saw the two people that the car 21 back towards jump back? 22 A Yeah, kind of like what are you doing, you 23 know. 24 Okay. Now, we read and heard your 25 recorded statements because you made two statements Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 15 1 both to the FBI and the Department of Justice? 2 A Yes. 3 Correct? 4 A Yes. 5 And you mention that your vision was 6 somewhat impaired? 7 A Yes. 8 As far as you needing corrective glasses 9 or lenses? 10 A Yes. 11 On that day, did you have what you needed 12 to make your vision very good? 13 A No. 14 How would you rate your vision that day? 15 A Um, from one to ten, I would say like 16 five. 17 Okay. So like me. I could probably read 18 from here to without glasses, but up close I 19 cannot see anything, okay. So was your long vision 20 better than up close vision? 21 A Um, I'm nearsighted, so I can't see far. 22 Okay. You need glasses to help you to see 23 far? 24 A Yes. 25 Are you pretty confident in what you saw Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 16 1 that day because how far would you say you were 2 away? Let's look at that again. When you first saw 3 it, where were you? 4 A Uh, probably like right there. 5 (indicating) 6 Okay. About right here. And where were 7 they when you first noticed them? 8 A About right here. (indicating) 9 Okay. Anyway to judge that in feet or 10 yards, I'm not good at that, but if you can tell us? II A I'm not certain. I would probably be 12 really off. 13 Okay. We got kind of a Visual picture of 14 the map that you showed us. Am I getting too close? 15 No. 16 (By Ms. Whirley) You felt that you were 17 pretty secure in what you were looking at? 18 A Yes. 19 Even though you need contacts? 20 A It is not that badvehicle and how he pulled back like that. 22 Okay, just checking. How about your 23 hearing? 24 A I couldn't really hear much of anything 25 they were saying, there was a lot of other stuff Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page l7 going on. 2 You have good hearing? 3 A My hearing is fine. 4 You don't need assistance to hear well or 5 anything? 6 A No. 7 Okay. So they back?back, the officer 8 back?back, it looks like they hit them because they 9 jump a little bit and look perturbed and look like, 10 hey, what are you doing, and then what? ll A Well, the big dude, Michael Brown, like he 12 got mad kind of, he just went immediately to the 13 driver's window and they got into it. I don't know 14 how it started. I just know he went around to the 15 window and it looked like they was fighting. 16 Okay. Did the little guy seem to be 17 helping? 18 A No. 19 Did you notice him? 20 A He was standing there for a while, but 2l once they started fighting, he just ran. 22 Was he next to Michael Brown on the same 23 side of the car? 24 A Yeah, he was on the same side of the car 25 still at the back of it. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page l8 They're at the driver's side of the car 2 since they were fighting? 3 A Yes, ma'am. 4 Did it look like anybody else was in the 5 car with the officer? 6 A No, I couldn't tell if anyone else was 7 next to the car. 8 You never saw anybody else get out or 9 anything like that? 10 A No. ll Now, describe for us why it looked like 12 they were fighting, what did you see? 13 A Um, it was like his arms. 14 You have to tell us whose arms? 15 A I'm sorry, Mike's arms are reaching into 16 the car. It looked like some type of struggle cause 17 he was like bobbing in and out like they were doing 18 something. Like I said, I couldn't exactly see what 19 was going on, what they were doing, but his actions 20 looked like there was some type of fight. 2l Could you see the officer's arms? 22 A Not really. His body was kind of blocking 23 the window. 24 Okay. And you could just see Mike's arms? 25 A Yeah. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepengnconl State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 19 1 So you're standing on this side? 2 A Yes. 3 And the car is over here? 4 A Yeah, about. 5 Facing West Florissantlittle farther, like right 7 there. 8 So would you have been closer, would your 9 View have been closer to the passenger side of the 10 car or the driver's side of the car? 11 A The driver's side. 12 Okay. Because the car was going 13 A It was facing towards West Florissant and 14 then he backed like a slant going to the left, like 15 right in the middle of the street almost. That's 16 why the cars couldn't go through, he was right in 17 the middle of the street. 18 What other cars did you notice? 19 A I saw, it was like a black van. I don't 2O know models of cars, but right beside me there was a 21 black van, as far as behind that going down, I'm not 22 sure. 23 Okay. What did you see after that? 24 A Um, after that I see they were struggling 25 in the window for about, it was not that long, a Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 20 couple seconds and then I heard the first gunshot. 2 And that's like, you know, kind of got everybody's 3 attention, people started paying attention after 4 that. 5 How do you know that people started paying 6 attention after that? 7 A Because his friend, after he ran, you 8 know, he just running around looking at stuff. 9 People outside on their porches, you know, because 10 you hear gunshot over there, especially when it is ll like right in the middle of everything, so everybody 12 could hear it. You know, people start looking out 13 their windows. 14 You notice this yourself? 15 A Yes, ma'am. 16 You are kind of looking around at the 17 scene. You weren't just focused directly on the 18 police officer constantly? 19 A Yeah, that's another thing that throws off 20 some of my details, there's so much going on. 2l Okay. 22 A Like even the lady in the car that was 23 beside me, she was just like, you know, just 24 looking, everybody just started to pay attention to 25 it. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 21 1 Did you talk to anybody while this is 2 going on? 3 A I was by myself, I didn't talk to anybody. 4 Nobody was yelling out anything to you? 5 A Not until the rest of the shots fired, 6 that's when everybody went crazy. 7 The first shot, was the officer in the car 8 when that shot occurred? 9 A Yes, the officer was still in the car. 10 Michael Brown was still in the window when I heard 11 the first shot. 12 Tell us what happened next? 13 A After that, he kind of backed up and just 14 looked down at himself. 15 Show us, if you wouldn't mind 16 demonstrating? 17 A Like, stand up. 18 Like he backed up and was looking at 19 himself? 20 A Okay. So I heard the first shot and he 21 was just like, his hands was in the car and after 22 that he backed up like, trying to check hisself 23 making sure he wasn't hurt or anything. 24 Could you see if he was injured from your 25 vantage point? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 22 A No. 2 You couldn't tell one way or the other? 3 A No. 4 Okay. And then what? 5 A Um, then he kind of stepped back a little 6 bit. I did see something fall on the ground, it 7 sounded metal. So, of course, the first thing I 8 assume was it was a gun. 9 Okay. You thought that somebody had a gun 10 that fell? ll A Yeah, at first I was thinking he had a 12 gun. 13 Michael Brown? 14 A Yeah. 15 Go ahead. 16 A So the officer got out of the car, you l7 know. 18 This metal object that fell? 19 Uh?huh. 20 Did it appear that the officer or Michael 2l Brown or anyone else retrieved that object? 22 A I didn't see anybody pick it up because at 23 that point was another point when was looking 24 around. 25 Okay. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unywagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 23 1 A When I did look back, that's when the 2 officer had the gun, he was pointing it at him. 3 Did you notice if that object that you 4 thought that fell on the ground was still on the 5 ground? 6 A It wasn't. 7 It wasn't there any more? 8 A No. 9 Okay. You did notice that? 10 A Yes, ma'am. 11 Okay. So the officer you said at that 12 point when you saw the officer again he was out of 13 the car? 14 A Yes. 15 And what was the officer doing? 16 A He was like just standing with the gun 17 facing him and then like. 18 Show us how he had the gun, the stance? 19 A He was just like, you know, officer, just 20 standing like this. Like he was, you know, going to 21 shoot him, like he did something. 22 Okay. Where was he though and maybe I 23 missed something. Let's go back to the shot went 24 off, Michael Brown checked himself out, was acting 25 like he was looking at himself. Then where did FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 24 1 Michael Brown go? 2 A He backed up a few steps. At first he 3 tried to run, at first when when he first looked 4 at hisself he tried to run. 5 Where was he running to though? 6 A Back towards the back of Canfield, like 7 back where his friend ran right there. 8 So east on Canfield? 9 A Yeah, the car was about right here, he ran 10 to about right here. (indicating) 11 How did he get around the car, did he just 12 go from the back of the car? 13 A He was like next to it so he didn't have 14 to, you know, there was too much turning to go down 15 the street. 16 Okay. And you said at first he tried to 17 run? 18 A Yeah, he made a couple little steps like a 19 quick sprint, nothing more than like five to seven 20 steps. 21 And then what? 22 A He didn't get that far. And then he 23 turned around, the officer had the gun pointed at 24 him and then you just heard the rest of the shots. 25 Let me ask something though. Did the FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unywagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 25 officer like pursue him when he was running away? 2 A No, I didn't see him run after him. 3 The officer just got out of the car? 4 A Yes, I saw him standing there. I didnthe car. 6 Okay. 7 A You know, certain things I saw and certain 8 things I didn't see. 9 But when you caught it again, Michael 10 Brown had turned around? II A Yes. 12 Did you see him turn around? 13 A Yes. 14 Can you show us how he did that? 15 A Just. (indicating) 16 So like run that way, I mean, or walk that 17 way of however he was doing it? 18 A Okay. He just turned around like, you 19 know, he put his arms about shoulder length and just 20 stopped, like looking at him. And then, um, that's 2l when I heard the rest of the shots. I heard the 22 first two, I didn't see them. And then when I 23 looked at him, I saw him still shooting him. 24 Okay. So you heard two shots? 25 A Yes. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 26 I As part of this set of shots or two 2 separate shots and then a pauseset. It was like in a 4 row like that. (indicating) 5 Okay. 6 A The first two of them I didn't see. I 7 wasn't looking. The rest of them I was looking 8 straight at him and I saw the actual shots going 9 into him. 10 It looked like the shots were going into ll him? 12 A Yes. 13 How could you tell, what was it looking 14 like? 15 A I mean, I can't tell, you know, I can't 16 really tell. I'm just saying based on him pointing 17 the gun at him and hearing all the pops and seeing 18 the smoke coming off his gun. 19 You saw the smoke? 20 A Yeah, I saw the smoke and you could smell 2l it like, it was like firecrackers almost. 22 You could smell it from where you were? 23 A Yes. 24 Was it a windy day? 25 A I don't remember. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 27 1 Was his arms up the way you showed us when 2 he was being shot? 3 A Yes, about, like his palms were out facing 4 forward, they were about at his ears, I'd say, like 5 shoulders, about like that. 6 Okay. What did that mean to you to have 7 your arms like that? 8 A That meant surrender, that meant take me 9 to jail. 10 You thought he was surrendering? ll A Yeah. 12 Did you ever see him rush the officer 13 like, you know what I mean by rush? 14 A Yeah, like he was mad. 15 Was he running toward the officer or 16 charge him? 17 A I didn't see that. 18 Okay. Did you ever hear anybody ever say 19 anything? 20 A As soon as the shots got fired, like I 2l said, I was up here by these trees, I was behind a 22 mailbox. I was standing right there after the rest 23 of the shots got fired. His friend that was with 24 him was running around, he was running. He was like 25 here, I guess. I don't know what he was doing. He FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 28 was standing with some dudes, he started running 2 around the complex, they shot him, they shot my home 3 boy, he didn't even deserve that. 4 It was the police that killed him, it 5 was the police that killed him. That is what got 6 the big crowd out there real fast. 7 Just to go back to when those last shots 8 was fired. You thought it was about how many shots? 9 A It sounded about like six. 10 Did you see Michael Brown fall? ll A Yes. 12 Were you watching him then? 13 A Yes. 14 How did he fall to the ground? 15 A He fell face forward. There wasn't no 16 pause on his knees or nothing, it was just straight 17 down. (indicating) 18 You didn't see him go down on his knees l9 and then fall, it was just from standing to 20 facedown? 2l A Yeah. 22 Okay. And then what did the officer do? 23 A The officer walked up to his body and was 24 standing over him like he was going to get back up. 25 He was just looking at him like, just looking down FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 29 at him like, I don't know. 2 Did the officer still have his weapon in 3 his hand? 4 A He still had his weapon in his hand. 5 Did you notice what he was doing with the 6 weapon or if he was doing anything? 7 A No, I just know he still had the gun right 8 at his side in his hand. He was just looking down 9 at him, just like walking around him, you know, just 10 like walking a circle around him like. I don't ll know, it was just strange. 12 So he didn't holster the weapon at that 13 point after Michael Brown was down? 14 A No. 15 Okay. Show me where you saw the body fall 16 on the map? 17 A It was probably like right here. Like 18 right there, went a couple steps and fell. 19 (indicating) 20 MS. ALIZADEH: Can you do that again? 2l A About right here is where his body was. 22 (indicating) 23 (By Ms. Whirley) Where were you again? 24 A By this time I was over here. 25 Okay. What did you do after the body FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 30 fell? 2 A I ran in the house. 3 Which way did you go home? 4 A Back this way. 5 Okay. And again, you live in building? 6 A 7 So you went back this way? 8 (indicating) 9 A Yes. 10 Okay. Did you see, at the time of the ll shooting, were there any other police vehicles 12 there? 13 A No, when he first got shot he was laying 14 there I seen another police car pull up probably 15 about ten minutes later. It wasn't that long after 16 the police car pulled up. So there was two police 17 cars out there, they eventually, I guess they told 18 the cop that shot him to go home because he wasn't 19 out there after a couple of minutes. 20 Did that car that showed up, did it have 2l its head bar lights on too? 22 A Yes. 23 Did you talk to any police officers or any 24 investigators that day? 25 A No. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 31 1 How did you come to talk to the 2 investigators? 3 A Honestly? 4 Honestly. 5 A I was at home enjoying myself watching a 6 movie and there's a knock on the door, and two big 7 guys with FBI things on. I told my boyfriend to get 8 the door, I don't want to talk to anybody, go get 9 the door. 10 So he answered the doors and says, I II was at work on that day, but my girlfriend was here 12 and saw the whole thing so. Oh, really, can we come 13 inside? I couldn't say no, the first thing he said 14 was just say no. So figure you can't say no to an 15 FBI agent. So, yeah, that's how it went. 16 Okay. So had you told your boyfriend 17 about what happened that day? 18 A Yeah, I told him because his son was 19 coming over. When she finally did get there, she 20 said, did you know somebody got shot? I was like, 2l yeah, I was just out there. 22 Did you tell her what happened too? 23 A No, I don't like her. We don't talk. 24 Okay. How old is the little boy? 25 A He's one. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 32 1 Okay. All right. But you did share with 2 your boyfriend? 3 A Yeah. 4 All right. 5 A Because I never, I've never seen anybody 6 get killed. I've seen police brutality firsthand, 7 but I've never seen nothing like that, nobody's life 8 get taken. 9 Did you think this was police brutality? 10 A Honestly, to me it looked like murder. ll I've seen the Ferguson police do some really awful 12 things. I've personally myself filed cases against 13 them for them coming into my house and basically l4 beating me up. 15 Okay. Tell us about that? 16 A Okay. So my boyfriend had got into it 17 with his son's mom. 18 Yeah, baby momma. 19 A Yeah. 20 Go ahead, we know about it. 2l A He got into it with her. The two of them 22 were fighting and arguing. I had just got off work. 23 She got off the bus with me so, you know, me and 24 her, why are you getting off the bus and going to my 25 house. It is my son's birthday, you know, I'm just FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 33 1 trying to get stuff for him, don't worry about it. 2 So she walked in the house, they get into it. I 3 didn't tell you could come over here. 4 So basically they started fighting, 5 he called the police on her. When the police 6 arrived, which was not that, it was like two minutes 7 later, like they was literally parked down the 8 street. When they arrived he was standing in the 9 doorway. 10 They walked straight up to him, they 11 didn't ask questions, they grabbed him, put him in 12 cuffs, told him to get on his knees. Like how am I 13 going to get on my knees when you're twisting my arm 14 up in the air. 15 They pushing his face all up on the 16 wall. Me and her are in there crying, he didn't do 17 nothing, he's the one that called you. They dragged 18 him outside. 19 She was getting ready to leave. So 20 her son, he wasn't even one at this time. He was, 21 where was he. He was sitting on the porch in his 22 stroller, still on the porch. It was freezing 23 outside, snow on the ground. 24 So they close the front door, left 25 him out there on the porch after they dragged FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 34 down the steps. 2 So they had me and her, and they sat 3 her on the couch. I come out of the kitchen because 4 it is a walk?around bar in the kitchen. So I come 5 around the bar in the kitchen, I'm like, what are 6 y'all doing in my house, why you doing my boyfriend 7 like that. He's the one that called y'all. 8 Like don't you understand, we had 9 nothing to do with this, we are trying to remove her 10 because we live here. ll He was like the word, don't say 12 nothing to me, this has nothing to do with you, this 13 is a police matter now. 14 They called you the word? 15 A Yes. The Canfield security officer, he 16 came in, come on man, these are kids. Don't do them 17 like that. You shut up because this is a police 18 matter, we're taking over this investigation and 19 stuff like that. What investigation. These are 20 kids. They called you for this girl that don't live 2l here. 22 So I'm like yelling at him, yes, I 23 did get mad. I started yelling at him. I'm like, 24 my name is on the lease. I didn't have nothing to 25 do with this. Why y'all in my house, you tearing it FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 35 up and all of this. 2 Okay. You don't know how to reason, 3 somebody come put her in cuffs. This big huge 4 officer came and put the cuffs on me. He kicked me 5 all over my back and he got cuffs like this, and 6 there was cuts all around my wrist. I had bruises 7 on my body and then they let her go. They let the 8 momma go. She started crying my baby's in the snow. 9 She took the baby? 10 A She took the baby and walked down the ll street. They put my boyfriend in the cop car. So 12 I'm in handcuffs walking around the house, so I walk 13 outside. Where's she going. Oh, there she is. 14 Don't you love how they just like to wander around 15 like the walking dead. 16 I'm out there like, where's my 17 boyfriend, looking in the police car and stuff. So 18 they come out therelike, what am I going to jail for. 20 We search your name, you probably 2l have a traffic ticket. I don't even drive, I have 22 no car. Well, we're going to find out when we get 23 down there. 24 I get down there, they say I have a 25 Metro ticket for the MetroLink. They kept me in Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 36 1 there, I was a manager at this time. I had to open 2 my store at 9:00 in the morning. They kept me in 3 there until 2:00 p.m. They let my boyfriend out at 4 like 3:00 in the morning. Well, he called them. 5 Now, was this officer, you know the 6 officer who is involved in this case, Darren Wilson, 7 correct? 8 A Yes. 9 Was he involved in any of this that 10 happened with you? ll A No, it was another dude. 12 It was another one? 13 A Big guy with a mustache. 14 Had you ever had any type of altercation 15 with Darren Wilson as a police officer? 16 A No. 17 How long ago did this happen to you? 18 A Um, that was probably like March and we 19 had been trying to get some type of justice up until 20 basically this. The security officer at Canfield 2l had everything on tape, like he recorded everything 22 he had taped that he sent to the landlord. He was 23 like, you need to do something. You need to take 24 this to court or sue Ferguson, he's telling her all 25 of this. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 37 1 So, in your opinion, you mention tape, did 2 you tape any of this 3 A No. 4 shooting? 5 A At that time I didn't have a phone that 6 could record. 7 Do you know anybody who has a tape of the 8 actual shooting? 9 A I saw a girl standing out there. It was 10 about that time when he was out of the car, she was 11 recording. She could have got most of the shooting, 12 but one of the officers took her phone. 13 How do you know that? 14 A I was standing there in the crowd at that 15 point. This was like 20 minutes after the shooting, 16 his body was still laying out there. 17 You saw an officer take her phone? 18 A Yeah, this was after I ran in house. I 19 put my bags down from the library, I was just 20 basically out there walking and, you know, mingling 21 around with all the people outside. I saw her 22 before I even went in the house, she was standing 23 like, she was standing like right here. 24 (indicating) 25 Okay. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 38 A Her house is right here. She was standing 2 on her porch like over there. 3 Do you know her name? 4 A I don't know her. 5 Okay. 6 A That was my first time seeing a lot of 7 these people. But I saw her, she was like, I got 8 the whole thing, she's standing there like, yeah, I 9 got you on camera too. He came over and took her 10 phone. ll Was it a Ferguson office? 12 A It was a Ferguson officer. 13 You know the difference between Ferguson 14 and County? 15 A And the County, yeah, it was Ferguson. 16 It was an Ferguson officer? 17 A Yeah. 18 Okay. One second. So based on your 19 knowledge of what's going on in the community, how 20 would you describe the relationship between the 2l police and the residence there in Canfield Green. 22 A From every instance I've been involved 23 with the police, I'm not a criminal. I don't have 24 any record. I don't have any reason to be arrested 25 or brutalized. A lot of people that I know over Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 39 1 there is the same way. 2 What I see when the police come, it 3 is like instant panic from people. You know, like 4 who called them, why would you call them over here. 5 We don't need them to solve this problem, you just 6 brought more trouble into the area and stuff like 7 that. 8 And I just see like, I mean, I seen 9 my daddy get beat by the police, I've seen friends 10 of mine will be out, you know, shopping and someone 11 told them we stole something and just get followed 12 by the police cars. I never seen, you know, I don't 13 think he deserves to get killed like that. And that 14 just kind of proves my whole image of what I thought 15 of the police. 16 Which is what? 17 A They abuse their authority to me. 18 Now, in one of your statements you 19 describe Michael Brown as looking scared when he 20 turned around. Do you recall that? 21 A Yes. 22 Explain to us what you mean by that. You 23 couldn't actually see his face, could you? 24 A No, I couldn't see his face. 25 What did you mean he looked scared? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 40 1 A I mean, you know, when you see a really 2 big dude just kind of cowering. 3 Like stand up for us, demonstrate 4 cowering. 5 A Okay. If you stop and you are looking at 6 someone and you're, you know, it is cool, you know, 7 I'm all right, you know. And, you know, I don't 8 know how to explain, but when I see a big dude like 9 that kind of looking like he's afraid, like he's 10 like trembling like a child kind of. 11 Do it look like he was trembling? 12 A Yeah -- 13 From that distance? 14 A Yeah, you know, the way his hands was, 15 they was moving or something. He was just like 16 scared to me, he looked scared. 17 It did not look to you that he was trying 18 to come at the officer when he was cowering or 19 moving his hands? 20 A No. 21 When Michael Brown fell to the ground, did 22 the officer stop shooting? 23 A Yes, I didn't hear any more mots. 24 You didn't hear any more shots. Did you 25 hear any shots when Michael Brown, after that first Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 41 1 shot and Michael Brown fled from the car before he 2 turned around, did you hear any shots? 3 A Like when he was running? 4 Yes. 5 A I don't remember. 6 Okay. I don't know if I've asked you this 7 already, but when you said there was one shot was in 8 the police car, did it appear that Michael Brown was 9 shot? You said he looked at himself, but you 10 couldn't tell if he was shot or not? 11 A I couldn't tell if he was shot. He just 12 looked at hisself, like he was checking to see, like 13 he didn't know hisself. 14 Okay. 15 MS. WHIRLEY: I don't have anything else 16 right now. Kathi? 17 MS. ALIZADEH: Yeah. 18 (By Ms. Alizadeh) So I'm going to ask you 19 a few more questions just to clarify a few things 20 and you're killing the court reporter because you 21 talk so fast. 22 A I'm sorry, I work at a call center. 23 I know you were getting excited. And I'm 24 really sorry that you had those experiences. Do you 25 think that Officer Wilson, do you hold him FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 42 1 accountable for the bad behavior that you've 2 experienced or witnessed or that you are aware of 3 other Ferguson officers? 4 A No, I don't hold him accountable really. 5 I think, you know, like I say with authorities, I 6 think he just got beside himself. Like, you know, 7 it turned into, you know, I'm going to tell you kids 8 you do this, you listen to me, you have an attitude. 9 And then it turned into him just being frustrated, 10 that's what it seemed like. 11 Okay. What I want to make sure, 12 and because this grand jury is going to consider 13 whether or not to indict the police officer for a 14 crime. And they're examining what happened that day 15 so that they can decide that, and I know that you 16 having had unpleasant or, you know, very bad 17 experiences with police officers, you know, it gives 18 you a bad impression of police officers I imagine. 19 But, you know, they need just to 20 relate what you saw today. They can only consider, 21 not that they can't consider other things, do you 22 know what I'm saying? 23 A What I saw, not what I heard. 24 Right. And I want to make sure that we're 25 not bringing all bad police officers behavior into FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 43 this picture. 2 A Right. 3 And you saw what you saw that day and you 4 have an opinion about what you saw that day and 5 that's fine and that's what we're interested in, 6 okay? 7 A Yes. 8 So when you said you were walking back 9 from the library and you first saw the two boys and 10 I just wanted to clarify, you said that maybe you ll had seen him once before, were you talking about the 12 littler guy or Michael Brown? 13 A The littler one. l4 The littler one? 15 A Yes. 16 In what setting have you seen him before? 17 A One of the little community stores up the 18 street. 19 Okay. So you recognized him as having 20 seen him up at one of the convenience stores? 2l A Seeing him up close. Actually seeing 22 pictures of his face up close, I recognized that was 23 his structure. 24 So from where you were standing initially, 25 which was somewhere around here; is that right? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 44 1 (indicating) 2 A (Nods head.) 3 And the boys were initially down about 4 here or where were the boys when you first saw them? 5 A They were about right here. I was like 6 right there. (indicating) 7 And you were about right here? 8 (indicating) 9 A Yes. 10 So from that distance you could see enough ll of the smaller boy's facial features to realize that 12 you recognized him? 13 A Yes. 14 And so now, we know, did you say this 15 Building 1 is the leasing office, correct? 16 A Yes. 17 And you said that you first saw the 18 officer's car by the leasing office and I want to 19 make sure we're clarifying here, was his car always 20 on Canfield Drive when you saw it or was there ever 2l a time when his car was up here on Coppercreek Road? 22 A No, it was always on Canfield. 23 Okay. 24 A The closer it got to pulling in somewhere 25 was when I first approached him all the way back Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 45 1 here, it was somewhere around here. (indicating) 2 Did you see him turn into one of those 3 drives or streets at all? 4 A He was on this main street, he was about 5 probably like in one of these parking lots. By the 6 time I got right here, he was already up the street. 7 Did you see him come from a parking lot 8 onto Canfield? 9 A No. When I first was like all the way 10 down, the first side street, I saw him somewhere in II like one of the entrances to the parking lots. 12 When you were walking from this direction, 13 did you see any people outside? 14 A No, I don't remember. I wasn't paying 15 that close attention. 16 Okay. So just to clarify then, you're 17 saying that there could have been, but you weren't l8 paying attention? 19 A Yeah. 20 It is not that you say, no, there wasn't 2l anybody else? 22 A Right. 23 All right. But you said that you saw a 24 black van? 25 A Yes. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 46 1 Was this a minivan type of van or the 2 bigger like? 3 A Soccer mom van. 4 Okay. Was there a soccer mom in the car? 5 A Uh, she might have been a soccer mom. 6 Was a woman in the car? 7 A Yes. 8 Was she an African?American? 9 A Yes. 10 And can you give me an idea about how old 11 she was? 12 A Probably, um, 36, 40, between 36 and 42 13 maybe. 14 Was there anybody else with her? 15 A I couldn't tell if there was anyone in the 16 back, but not in the front passenger seat. 17 Okay. And the other cars that you said 18 were lining up, you really didn't get a good 19 description of them? 20 A No. 21 You can't remember anything about those 22 other cars? 23 A No. 24 And when you first saw the police 25 officer's car, was the police officer's car moving Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 47 1 when you first saw it? 2 A No. 3 It was stopped? 4 A Yes. 5 And so you had described that the 6 officer's car backed up quickly? 7 A Yes. 8 Is that the first time that you saw the 9 officer's car move or did it go forward and then 10 back up from what you saw? 11 A Uh, no, it just backed up, it went forward 12 first. 13 So the first time you saw the officer's 14 car, it was standing still and were the boys walking 15 away from the car at that point? 16 A Yes, they was walking. 17 Okay. And then you saw the officer's car 18 back up quickly? 19 A Yes. 20 Did the tires make noise or did you hear 21 any screeching or any noise from the car? 22 A Yes. 23 And at this time could you see inside the 24 police car to see who was driving the car? 25 A At that point when he backed up 1 did see Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 48 him like, you know, with his arm out the car saying 2 something to him like, I don't know, saying 3 something to him. I just saw hand gesture like 4 doing something like that. 5 So you could see that there was a driver 6 in the police car? 7 A Yes. 8 Could you tell it was a man? 9 A Yes. 10 Could you tell whether he was ll African?American or white at that point? 12 A Yes. 13 Okay. How about anybody else in the 14 police car, could you see if there was anyone else? 15 A No, I couldn't see if there was anyone 16 else. 17 But you could tell there was a policeman 18 in the car? 19 A Yes. 20 What about, now, you said you saw the red 2l and blue lights Uh?huh. 23 Were those always on from the first time turn them on? 25 A From the first time I saw him all the way Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 49 down the street the lights was on. 2 The lights were always on from the first 3 time you saw the car? 4 A Yes. 5 Did you ever see the lights get turned 6 off? 7 A I don't remember that. 8 Now, you described when you saw Michael 9 Brown come to the window of the car. He went to the 10 window of the car kind of quickly, in your opinion II it looked like he was angry? 12 A Yes. 13 And then you described his hands and I4 shoulders and arms inside the vehicle. And today 15 you said he was bobbing in and out? 16 A Yeah, it was like, you could see the back 17 of his body, like his shoulders were just like 18 moving, like they were doing something in the car. 19 Okay. Did he ever leave his feet? In 20 other words, did he ever get like to the point where 2l he, you know, jumped halfway into the car or 22 anything? 23 A I wouldn't remember. 24 Okay. And you said that the struggle 25 lasted a few seconds; is that right? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 50 1 A Yes. 2 I think in one of your previous statements 3 I think you said about 15 seconds, but does that 4 seem about right? 5 A Yeah, around that time. 6 All right. And then another thing I 7 wanted to clarify is that while this whole thing is 8 going on, you're moving. At some point you stand 9 still and then you move? 10 A Yes. 11 Can you narrate for me, I'm not telling 12 you this is what I want you to say, I'm just giving 13 you an example. If you say I'm walking down here 14 and right here is where I see, I see the police car, 15 so I stop right here. And then after the guy starts 16 running, I walk over here. So can you kind of move 17 the laser pointer. 18 A Yeah. 19 And give us an idea of how you were moving 20 and what was going on while you were moving? 21 A Okay. So like you said, I did come down 22 this street. I didn't actually stop until I got 23 like to the last tree. 24 Okay. 25 A That's when I was pretty close enough to FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 51 1 see what was going on. 2 Were you on the sidewalk or the street? 3 A Yeah, I was on this sidewalk right here. 4 (indicating) 5 That's on the south side of Canfield? 6 A Yes, ma'am. 7 Okay. 8 A I saw the police car sitting about here. 9 (indicating) 10 Okay. Keep the laser pointer where you 11 are while you are narrating, okay. So I know where 12 you are when you first see things. 13 A Okay. I was about right here when I first 14 stop to get a look, when they were at the car. The 15 first shot I was right here. I seen once he got out 16 of the car, kind of started moving towards this way. 17 I was standing about right here in the grass with 18 some people over here. I'm standing right here just 19 listening to them. That's when I heard the rest of 20 the shots. So I hid behind the mailbox kind of and 21 then after that, I just go down here and go home. 22 (indicating) 23 Where were you when you saw his body fall, 24 were you behind the mailboxes yet? 25 A Probably about right here in the grass in FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 52 I this area. (indicating) 2 When you said you went behind the 3 mailboxes, I don't know what the mailboxes look 4 like, did you go behind there for shelter, like to 5 get out of the way? 6 A Yeah, I hear all of those shots, you know, 7 I went over there. 8 Okay. And so are those mailboxes, what 9 are they like, are they metal? 10 A Yes, ma'am, they're metal. 11 How tall are they? 12 A From the ground, they're about this tall. 13 (indicating) 14 I'm a little over 5 foot and I've got 15 heels on, so let's say today I'm 16 A On the ground there about this tall, I can 17 reach up and touch the top. 18 So that's maybe about 5 foot high? 19 A Yes. 20 And is it a solid box with little 2l mailboxes in it? 22 A Yes, a solid long box with just a whole 23 bunch of little doors. 24 If you are standing behind the mailboxes, 25 does the mailboxes block your View of where Michael FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 53 1 Brown's body fell? 2 A No, I'm standing completely behind them. 3 Yes, okay. But you saw Michael Brown's 4 body fall? 5 A Yes. 6 You weren't behind the mailboxes? 7 A Not completely behind it, you know, just 8 kind of look around it kind of, like right here. 9 Okay. 10 A No cars right there, there is no cars, you 11 can see all the way down to right almost right here 12 on the street. 13 This white rectangle here that I'm 14 pointing at in front of this row of cars, these are 15 mailboxes? 16 A Yes. 17 Okay. And so were you on the west side of 18 the mailboxes when you finally got behind the 19 mailboxes? 20 A Oh yeah, back here. (indicating) 21 Okay. Can you people see what I'm 22 pointing at right here, the mailboxes? 23 But you were able to see everything 24 until about, including when Michael Brown fell on 25 the ground? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 54 1 A Yeah. 2 And then you also describe that you saw 3 the officer walk up to the body and kind of walk 4 around it with his gun at his side? 5 A Yeah. 6 So were you behind the mailboxes at that 7 point peeking around or were you still out in the 8 open? 9 A I was still at this point just looking 10 around until everything was over and people started 11 coming outside and I went in the house. 12 Okay. And now you said today that when 13 Michael Brown turned around and he put his hand up 14 and you demonstrate that, that he looked like he was 15 scared; is that right? 16 A Yes. 17 When you saw that, were you over in this 18 area when he turned around? 19 A Yes. 20 Okay. And you described him being where 21 when you saw him turn around? 22 A Um, about right here. (indicating) 23 Okay. So just so I can help with trying 24 to understand things and with trying to get you to 25 understand things, are there, when he turns around FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 55 and he gets shot, does he ever move backwards or 2 forwards after he turns around? 3 A I don't remember that specific. 4 Do you remember telling the investigators 5 that you saw him taking steps backwards? 6 A Yes, after he ran, he moved a couple steps 7 with his hands up. 8 Yes? 9 A Yes. 10 He runs a few steps and he turns around 11 and he puts his hands up like next to his ears? 12 A Yeah, and takes like some short half 13 steps. 14 Backwards? 15 A Yes. 16 So what's the furthest point backwards 17 that he walks? 18 A He doesn't take too many backward steps. 19 The most move he made was running about here. He 20 didn't get much farther than this area. (indicating) 21 Okay. Now, eventually when he was shot 22 and hit the ground and his body laid there for quite 23 some time, is that where the memorial is now on the 24 street? 25 A Yes. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 56 And so can you point on the map where the 2 memorial is? 3 A There's one right here by the Ferguson 4 apartment complex, one right here and one at the end 5 of my street and there's one on the street right 6 here where Canfield ends. 7 Where the word Canfield is? 8 A Yes, memorial right there. 9 Okay. So where the body laid and where 10 the memorial is, that's the farthest east that you ll saw him get? 12 A Yes. 13 Okay. 14 A They kind of built the memorial on top of 15 the blood stain that was there. So that's where he 16 was. 17 So you never saw him from the farthest 18 point that he was east, you never saw him move 19 toward the officer? 20 A I didn't see him move toward the officer. 2l He could have, but I didnthis would have been when you were kind 23 of over by the mailboxes? 24 A Yes. 25 And would you have been like peeking out Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 57 or whatever? 2 A Yes. 3 And you also said today and in previous 4 statements that, you know, you were kind of at that 5 point noticing that people were kind of coming out 6 and milling about? 7 A Yes. 8 So you were taking your eyes off of what 9 was going on a little bit? 10 A Yes. ll Now, you said that you saw a woman come 12 out and say that she had videoed this on her phone? 13 A Yes. 14 Where did you see her when she came out? 15 A When I first saw her she was standing 16 right here in front of her apartment complex. After 17 I had went in the house and came back out, she was 18 over here with a big group of people over by the 19 apartment right here. 20 Okay. 2l A That's where I thought he took her to take 22 her phone, she was standing like right here, still 23 in front of her building. (indicating) 24 Okay. So you think she lives in 25 FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 58 1 A Yes. 2 Do you know that? 3 A I don't know that. 4 Why do you think she's lives in that 5 building? 6 A She was standing on the balcony of, I know 7 the man that lives there, I know she was standing on 8 the balcony with them. 9 You don't know her name? 10 A No. 11 What about the man that lives there, do 12 you know his name? 13 A No. 14 If somebody, could you point to what 15 balcony it was? 16 A Yeah, I can point to what balcony it wasthe street, I would know him. 18 Okay so was the gal an African?American? 19 A Yes. 20 About how old? 21 A Probably her 20s. 22 Have you seen, after this happened, have 23 you seen people on the news who came forward who 24 said they saw it and describing what they saw? 25 A I did. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 59 Did you ever see that girl, the one who 2 the officer took her phone, did you ever see her on 3 the news? 4 A No, I was expecting to see that video, but 5 I didn't. 6 Okay. Now you describe when you said 7 Michael Brown turned around and you said it looked 8 like he was scared and today you used the word 9 cowering. In previous statements you said it was 10 like he was crouched over. II A Yes. 12 On your recording from previous statements 13 we can't see what that means because it's an audio 14 recording. But you demonstrated today, and 15 was in between you and I so I didn't have a good 16 look at it. Can you describe or demonstrate what 17 you meant when he was crouched over or cowering. 18 A Okay. It was like his hands were about 19 like this. (indicating) 20 Can you stand up? He was standing up at 2l this point, right? 22 A Yes. His shoulders were like almost 23 touching his hands, um. No, that's kind of like the 24 stance for self?defense to me. So that's how I said 25 crouched over. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 60 1 And so before when you were talking to the 2 FBI agents and the assistant U.S. attorney, remember 3 the guy with black hair that you talked to, the 4 attorney? 5 A Yes. 6 Okay. And you said to him that Michael 7 Brown was kind of crouching over and it sounded to 8 me like maybe you were trying to demonstrate it and 9 you said, so kind of bent over? 10 A Yes. 11 When you demonstrated it to them, was your 12 body bent over in any way? 13 A Yes, neck kind of bent forward, shoulders 14 going inward. 15 Okay. How about at the waist. Would the 16 body be upright or is the body bent over? 17 A No, the body is upright. 18 Body is upright? 19 A Like from the forearm up is kind of what 1 2O meant. 21 Kind of like shoulder slumped? 22 A Yes, like, you know. 23 Okay. Okay. And just to be clear, from 24 the time after you heard one gunshot while Michael 25 Brown was at the vehicle. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 61 1 A Yes. 2 And then you see him run. Does the 3 officer fire at Michael Brown while he's running 4 away? 5 A That I don't remember. I wasn't paying 6 attention at that point. 7 Okay. 8 A It is from the time that the officer got 9 out of the car from the gun, or whatever it was on 10 the ground being picked up or whatever, that part 11 I'm not sure. 12 Okay. And just to be clear, you said from 13 the gun being picked up off the ground, but you 14 don't know for sure what was on the ground; is that 15 rightwas black? 18 A Yes, it was black. It made like kind of a 19 plastic metal clink when it hit the ground. That's 20 all I know as far as the shape and what I know 21 exactly. 22 Did you see any yellow on it, was it black 23 and yellow? 24 A I didn't see any yellow. 25 It looked like it was all black and about FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 62 the size that a handgun would be? 2 A Yes. 3 You didn't see who picked it up, you just 4 know that later it was gone? 5 A Yes. 6 Okay. Did you see, as the boys were first 7 walking toward the car, after the officer backed up 8 and the boys approached the car, did you see 9 anything in Michael Brown's hands? 10 A No. ll Did you ever see Michael Brown hand 12 anything to the little guy? 13 A No, I wasn't paying attention. 14 Okay. So just cause you were kind of 15 talking softly, you said, no, you weren't paying 16 that close of attention? 17 A Yes. 18 Okay. And so after the first gunshot and 19 Michael Brown backs away, kind of checks himself out 20 looks like and then he starts to run away, you say 2l he gets a few steps before he turns around, did you 22 hear any shots before he turns around? 23 A I don't remember. 24 Okay. And then after he turns around and 25 puts his hands up, and you said in your statement FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 63 1 and today, you said he took a few steps, half steps 2 backwards? 3 A Yeah, just like a little shuffle. 4 Okay. And then did it appear to you that 5 he had been shot at that point, could you see? 6 A I couldn't tell, that was too far for 7 that. 8 Okay. And then you heard several shots in 9 a row after that? 10 A Yes. 11 And then after those several shots in a 12 row, was there another series of shots? 13 A Um, after, while his body was out there, 14 but it wasn't. 15 I know there's been people who said there 16 were gunshots going off in the complex, but I'm 17 talking about from the officer? 18 A No. 19 Okaycar, and then several shots after Michael Brown had 21 turned around and that's all the gunshots you heard? 22 A Yes. 23 MS. ALIZADEH: I don't have anything else. 24 MS. WHIRLEY: Questions? 25 I'm FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 64 trying to get some idea on this distance here. If 2 we can probably put it in terms of car like 3 a four?door vehicle, can you picture that in your 4 mind? 5 A Yes. 6 Okay. Now, when you 7 started off, when you saw the officer's car, can you 8 give me an idea how many cars, 4?door cars can fit 9 between where the police officer's car is and where 10 you are when you first see him? ll A Okay. It will be about probably four or 12 five car 13 Okay. Four to five car 14 okay. 15 A Yes. 16 Okay. And then when you 17 got to, were you still at that point when you heard 18 the first shot go off? 19 A Yes, ma'am. When I heard the first shot, 20 I was still by the tree. 2l Okay. Then when you're at 22 the bank of the mailboxes, okay, are you still, 23 okay, where are they then? 24 A They're still in the same place about 25 right here. They're still in the same area. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 65 1 (indicating) 2 Okay. And so from there 3 to where they are, about how many car would 4 that be you think? 5 A From where I was to the police car? From 6 where I was here to the police car? 7 Yeah. 8 A I was closer, I was probably about two or 9 three car 10 Two to three car ll And then at that point you're there about two or 12 three car at that point that's when you see 13 Michael Brown, you see the other bank of shots or 14 the other shots go off? 15 A Yes. 16 Okay. I think that's all 17 I have. 18 Okay. On 19 August the l6th, your interview when you told the 20 authorities that you were walking home from the 2l library, you first said that you saw the police 22 officer back?back, you know, not hard but 23 A Quick. 24 Quick stop and almost 25 hitting the boys? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 66 A Yes. 2 I call them young men. 3 You said that, okay, what I need to understand, 4 cause you are on the same side as them, right? 5 A I'm on the opposite side of the street. 6 At the time when you saw 7 the police? 8 A Yes, during everything I was on the 9 opposite side of the street from the police car. 10 Opposite side would be II A This side of the street. The car was on 12 this side of the street, parked about right here at 13 first. (indicating) l4 Okay. Let me rephrase the 15 question, you are so right. You are facing the same 16 side as you are facing to the back of everything 17 that's going on. 18 A Yeah, well, I'm facing towards the front 19 of the police car, but I'm facing the back of the 20 police officer, but while he was getting shot, I was 2l still facing toward Michael Brown. 22 Right. My point is, when 23 you saw the action going vehicle, I call it MB and PO, police officer. Did 25 it look to you when he came back at that quick stop, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 67 1 even though they may have almost gotten hit, you 2 know, and they jump back, how soon would you say 3 that the action between MB and the PO took place? 4 A How soon did he walk up to the car window? 5 Cause when you say walk up 6 to the car, I'm thinking somebody almost got hit, 7 it's like it's right here, I mean, it is like 8 instant, it is right directly in front of me? 9 A Yes. 10 It would be like boom, ll boom, you know. 12 A Uh?huh. 13 Just a jerk more than not 14 jump far backBut when you say walk up 17 to the police car, did he have to like walk some 18 feet? 19 A No, just walk from the back of the car to 20 the driver's window. It wasn't like a walk, it was 21 just like, you know, probably like three steps. He 22 was already there by the car. He just walked from 23 the bumper to the driver's window. 24 How soon did the 25 conversation that you did not hear take place? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 68 A How soon after he backed up the car? 2 Yeah. 3 A Um, like less than five seconds. It was 4 like instant after that happened, he just charged 5 right up to the window, he just went right over. 6 So, and you said that you 7 saw his body waist up in the car? 8 A About his arms, shoulders right here like, 9 you know, somebody reaching, he's reaching in there. 10 Like they're in there fighting, he's reaching for ll something but he's doing something in the car. 12 His head and chest was 13 inside the vehicle too? 14 A His head was in the vehicle at one point 15 reaching in. 16 On August the 16th you 17 never mention that his body was inside the vehicle, 18 but on September 25th you mention that his body was 19 inside. You just said that it was his arm, it 20 looked like they were fighting. 2l So I'm just confused because like that's a 22 big gap, that's almost like a month after you had 23 your first interview. Did you like hear anything on 24 television or hear anyone in the neighborhood 25 talking about, you know, what they actually saw? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 69 1 A No, it was just what I remember. It might 2 be off, but it was like a grapple, you know, head 3 bobbing and shoulders moving, arms moving. 4 Okay. Thank you. 5 Continuing on 6 that same thought. You know the car backs up, 7 nearly hits Michael Brown and Dorian. You said 8 Michael Brown makes his way almost immediately, five 9 seconds or so, to the driver's side of the car. 10 Can you tell from your perspectives were 11 there words exchanged first, or was there kind of 12 immediate action with the arms? 13 A I couldn't tell. 14 Okay. Thank you. 15 When you 16 moved from the tree to the mailbox, were you walking 17 or running at that time? 18 A It was a mix, kind of like a jog almost I 19 say. 20 That's a pretty good 21 distance, that's 50, 60 feet maybe? 22 A From the tree to the mailbox? 23 From the tree to the 24 mailbox? 25 A It's not really far when you are there. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 70 It is not even this little amount of trees, I think 2 there is another one right here and there's another 3 one right here as well, that's not on this map. 4 Is that the picture, you 5 are watching the ground as much as maybe you are 6 looking back at the scene too, so you're not seeing 7 everything? 8 A Yes. 9 You are concentrating on 10 moving. II A Yes, that's what I stated earlier as well. 12 Did you make it to the 13 mailbox before you heard the shots or was it as you 14 were moving that you were hearing shots? 15 A It was while I was there. At this point I 16 was kind of on the edge right here when the rest of 17 the shots rang out. 18 You had already stopped. 19 A Yes. 20 And turned around and were 2l facing him? 22 A Yes. 23 When you saw 24 Michael Brown turn around, you indicated earlier 25 that you couldn't identify any facial expressions. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 71 1 Could you tell, and you said clearly that you 2 couldn't hear anything. Could you tell whether he 3 was saying anything or not? 4 A No. 5 Or trying to say words? 6 A I wouldn't be able to see his mouth moving 7 or anything. I wasn't really listening for him 8 saying anything. 9 You didn't see his mouth 10 moving? 11 A I can't see his facial expressions. 12 So you didn't hear 13 anything or you couldn't see anything? 14 A No. 15 Okay. Thank you. 16 I just want to 17 go back to what were talking 18 about. 19 When I look at the transcript from 20 September 25th, and I compare it to the transcript 21 from August 16th, to me it looks like you are saying 22 something very similar. 23 From the 16th on page 15, it says he 24 approached the window of the vehicle, Mr. Brown, he 25 approached the window of the vehicle. Could you Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 72 1 tell if he reached in or the officer reached out. I 2 don't know. 3 And then you said, yet like his head and 4 shoulders were. And the FBI agent says, his head 5 and shoulders were in the window. And you said, 6 yeah. 7 Were his arms in the window as well. You 8 said yeah, his arms basically, you know, steady 9 reaching in. His whole top half in the window and 10 popping back out? II A (Nods head.) 12 And then the one from the 13 25th, basically to me it looks like you are saying 14 the same thing. I want to make sure that I'm 15 reading this correctly. 16 A Okay. 17 When he saw him go into 18 the window, it seemed like he just ran. And then 19 one of the lady officers, she says, was he in the 20 window or parts of his body inside the window. And 2l you said yeah, like his head and shoulders were. 22 And you said yes, that's what it looked like. 23 And then later you said you saw Michael 24 Brown, you said his whole top half in the window and 25 you said yes, just about. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 73 I want to make sure I'm understanding. 2 A Yes. 3 His head, shoulders and 4 arms were in the window? 5 A Yes. 6 And that's what you said 7 in both statements. 8 A Yes. 9 You said here, did you 10 see the police officer's face after Michael Brown ll left the scene and the officer was getting out? 12 A After Mike Brown left the scene? 13 After Mike Brown was 14 running away and the officer got out of the car, did 15 you see the officer's face? 16 A No, no. 17 You didn't see if it was 18 bruised or anything? 19 A No, I couldn't tell. I didn't even see 20 him really get out of the car. When I looked up he 2l was already out. 22 Do you know if Michael 23 Brown reached for his chest or under his waistband? 24 A I don't remember. 25 MS. ALIZADEH: His own or the officer's? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 74 1 Michael Brown. 2 A I don't remember. 3 In one of the statements 4 the first two shots you didn't see? 5 A A_couple of them I wasn't looking, but I 6 heard them ring back, to back, to back. After it 7 had to be like, I don't remember exactly, but they 8 were back to back. After about the third one, I did 9 look and see. 10 And you said to officer 11 or district attorney, whatever her name is, 12 in one of your statements that you had looked 13 away. And she said, if I told you we had evidence 14 that he moved forward toward the police officer, 15 what would you say about that. You said that might 16 have been one of the times I was looking away. 17 A Yeah. 18 So I understand, you're 19 doing very well by the way, there's a lot going on, 20 you are scared? 21 A There was a lot going on. 22 I understand, Hon. I 23 just want to make sure just because you are saying 24 you didn't see it, doesn't necessarily mean it 25 didn't happen. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 75 A Right, right, that's the point I tried to 2 make. 3 Okay. You said today 4 that you felt like this was murder. Can I ask you 5 how you felt, I want you to put yourself in the 6 officer's position. I want you to tell us what you 7 think he should have done? 8 A Okay. I mean, even if I heard that people 9 said that he reached in the truck, even if he did 10 attack you, he was unarmed. I feel like at the II point he tried to surrender, he could have put 12 handcuffs on him. They could have maced him, that's 13 why they have those that's why you have 14 all these other options. 15 This is a boy who has no weapons at 16 all, you exhaust your other options. Injure him, 17 but why kill him. 18 Thank you so much. 19 MS. ALIZADEH: I have a question. 20 I can't remember from your previous statements, but 2l you've never heard the officer yelling any commands 22 or anything, did you? 23 A No. 24 MS. ALIZADEH: Your hearing is okay? 25 A It's okay. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 76 MS. ALIZADEH: This thought just now 2 occurred to me because you are a young person. And 3 I've never asked anybody else, but did you have 4 headphones or ear buds that day as you were walking 5 back from the library? 6 A No. 7 MS. ALIZADEH: Kids walk around with 8 headphones on, so you didn't have anything in your 9 ears? 10 A No, I just wasn't really, I meannoise, a lot of commotion. It's usually a 12 lot of noise over there. So if they weren't where 13 they were, I probably wouldn't have heard it. 14 MS. ALIZADEH: You didn't hear any 15 screaming from anybody? 16 A No, I wasn't paying attention to it. 17 MS. ALIZADEH: Okay. 18 A Like I said, it's a possibility they could 19 have been, but I didn't catch anything or anything I 20 would remember word for word. 2l MS. ALIZADEH: All right, thank you. 22 23 I have one more question. You said that you saw 24 something hit the ground, you thought it was a 25 weapon? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 77 1 A Yes. 2 And I understand now we 3 know that Michael Brown was not armed? 4 A Yes. 5 But at the time we didn't 6 know that, correct? 7 A Right. At first I thought it was his gun, 8 like I thought that's what hit the ground. 9 So it is reasonable to 10 think the police officer might think he has a gun. 11 I'm not saying that he deserved what happened to 12 him, we just didn't know that? 13 A Yes. 14 Thank you. 15 . You just 16 stated to the prosecutor that you never heard the 17 officer yell out any commands. When Mr. Brown was, 18 you know, shots were going towards Mr. Brown, the 19 last what six shots or whatever, did you at any time 20 hear him cry out anything or cry out even in painMS. ALIZADEH: Anyone else? Sheila? 24 MS. WHIRLEY: No. That will conclude the 25 testimony of this witness. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 78 (End of the testimony of 2 MS. WHIRLEY: We're still working 3 together. It is October 28th, 20l4, approximately 4 11:21 a.m. We've concluded the testimony of 5 Now we're going to start with the recording 6 of . You have transcripts of that. 7 The Grand Jury Exhibit Number 55, which is the 8 recording for her. We will play that. We are 9 anticipating she will be here as a witness probably 10 after lunch. It is somewhere around 30 minutes ll long. With that said, stop the recording. 12 Who are the other people 13 listed on here? 14 MS. WHIRLEY: We didn't do these 15 transcripts. I'm not sure how, why all of these 16 folks spoke. This is what I did notice and you will 17 notice it when you hear the transcript, hear the 18 recording, there are several people at the house. 19 I'm glad you asked that question. Actually, there 20 are several people at the house, and then they kind 2l of isolate and the bulk of the 22 testimony is from her, but a few other people are 23 speaking. 24 They may be family 25 members or bystanders? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 79 MS. WHIRLEY: People that are in the house 2 when the FBI arrived there to find out what 3 happened. And then, I guess, they narrow her down 4 as really the witness. Okay. Good question. 5 (Playing of the interview of 6 .) 7 MS. WHIRLEY: That concludes the recorded 8 testimony of We do anticipate that 9 she will be here this afternoon, however, we are 10 going to break for lunch now. We'll see if your 11 lunch is here, first of all. And it is 11:55 12 October 28th, 2014. 13 (Lunch recess taken) 14 MS. WHIRLEY: I'm Sheila Whirley. We are 15 resuming our afternoon session in the shooting of 16 Michael Brown. It is October the 28th, 20l4, at 17 approximately 12:56. Kathi Alizadeh is present, all l8 12 grand jurors are present and so is the 19 court reporter. We are going to start with our 20 first witness, 21 As you recall, you listened to one of her 22 statements this morning before lunch. She's here 23 live for testimony and she did also meet with the 24 federal investigative parties this morning. So she 25 has another statement that we don't have for you Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 80 yet. So we will see what she has to say today. 2 I 3 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to 4 testify the truth, the whole truth, and 5 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, 6 deposes and says in reply to oral 7 interrogatories, propounded as follows, to?wit: 8 EXAMINATION 9 BY MS. WHIRLEY: 10 Hi, as I introduced myself a little ll earlier, I'm Sheila Whirley. 12 A How you doing, Miss Whirley. 13 I'm good dear, thank you. You met Kathi l4 Alizadeh, the l2 grand jurors are here, the 15 court reporter, is here and I want you to introduce l6 yourself to the grand jurors and spell your name, 17 please? 18 A Yes. My name is 19 20 Okay. And you know why we're here today? 2l A Yes, ma'am. 22 I know you talked to several people. How 23 many interviews have you given? 24 A Well, two. 25 Two, okay. And do you recall when your Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 81 1 first interview wassay August the 16th, like a week 4 after, a little bit earlier than, I guess, a week 5 after, does that sound right? 6 A I want to say it was probably before that. 7 It could have been before then, it could have been 8 that day. 9 It could be August 16th, kind of around 10 like 11 in the morning? 11 A Yeah. 12 And then you had another interview today; 13 is that correct? 14 A That's right. 15 That you finished? 16 A This morning. 17 This morning. Okay. We just need you to 18 tell us what happened, so that's basically what 19 we're here for. I'm going to ask you to start at 20 the beginning. This would have occurred August the 21 9th of 2014, on a Saturday, is that how you recall 22 it? 23 A Yes, ma'am. 24 Do you live in Canfield Green? 25 No, ma'am. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 82 Did you live in Canfield Green that day? 2 A No, ma'am, I was riding through. 3 You were riding through. So what did your 4 morning start like, tell us about it? 5 A Well, actually, I was up early morning, I 6 was going to make a store run, but I also stay in 7 the area on 8 Where is that in relation to Canfield 9 Green Apartment? 10 A Actually, it is not that far, it is like, II it is like down the street and around the corner. 12 It is like off West Florissant or behind 13 Canfield Green? 14 A I will say before you get to Canfield. 15 Okay. 16 A It's a house on the other side of Solway l7 and West Florissant. It is a side street you can 18 take to get to the Canfield. 19 Is it Jennings or is it in Ferguson or is 20 it unincorporated? 2l A Well, my house was the last house of 22 Jennings, so I would say it is 23 So Jennings? 24 A Jennings. 25 Okay. So what time of day is it that FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepengnconl State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 83 you're driving through Canfield Green Apartments? 2 A That I couldn't say. I honestly forgot 3 what time it was, but I was riding through coming 4 from the store and I seen a friend, I was going to 5 visit a friend, but he wasn't at home. So I seen a 6 couple of people that I knew outside and stopped to 7 ask one of the guys for a cigarette. 8 Are those all people that live in Canfield 9 Green, your friend and the other people that you 10 saw? ll A Yeah, but my friend wasn't there. 12 All right. 13 A I didn't see him at all. 14 If I tell you it was around noon or so, 15 does that sound right? 16 A Yeah. 17 Where did you come from? I mean, this is 18 West Florissant over here just to orient you to the 19 map. 20 A Okay. 2l So where did you come from? 22 A I was, I came the back way through the 23 Northwinds Apartment. 24 So you're traveling, is it east on 25 Canfield toward West Florissant? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 84 1 A Toward West Florissant. 2 That's a laser pen, it has a red light. 3 If you push the button, so why don't you pick that 4 up and there's a little button right there and, 5 yeah, okay. So show us how you were traveling? 6 A Okay. I was coming down Canfield. 7 Uh?huh. 8 A And I had stopped, this is a driveway 9 before you get to Coppercreek. 10 Okay. 11 A I pulled in there and I got out of the 12 car, I was talking to a friend. 13 And is this before everything happened? 14 A Before everything had happened. 15 Were you riding alone? 16 A Yes, I was. 17 What kind of car were you inWhat color? 20 A Burgundy. 21 Burgundy? 22 A I saw a friend, I got out and asked him 23 for a Cigarette. He was just sitting there, we was 24 just talking in general. And as we was in the midst 25 of talking, Mike Brown and his friend was walking FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 85 1 across the lot. 2 Which way were they walking? 3 A They was walking towards 4 Show the map. 5 A They was walking down Canfield on the lot 6 by the trash cans, they crossed and then they walked 7 down the street. I don't know where they was going, 8 I can't say. 9 Okay. 10 A So they walk towards West Florissant. ll Okay. 12 A I can say that, don't know where they was 13 going. 14 Okay. 15 A So we just out there generally talking. 16 So when you saw them walking towards West 17 Florissant, nothing was going on then? 18 A Was nothing going on. 19 Did you know Mike Brown before this day? 20 A No, I didn't. 2l Did you know his friend? 22 A No, I didn't. 23 Describe Mike Brown so we know we are 24 talking about the same person? 25 A He was a big, tall, heavy set guy. He had Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 86 on like some khaki type shorts with like a gray like 2 T?shirt and flip flopsOkay. Do you remember the color? 4 A I'm not for sure. 5 Okay. And what did his friend look like? 6 A He was dark skin with dreads, he had on, I 7 think he probably had on like a white T?shirt. 8 Are you guessing or is that what you 9 recall? 10 A Well, I'm guessing. I really wasn't ll paying no attention. 12 Okay. 13 A What really they had on. 14 You don't have to guess. 15 A All rightgive me an approximate 17 amount feet or something like that is a distance, 18 maybe as long as you let us know you are kind of 19 guessing. 20 A I was at the dumpster that's on 2l Coppercreek that I'm standing by. When they walk 22 past, they was like a little distance away from me. 23 Show me again where you were when they 24 walked past? 25 A This, I don't know where directly FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 87 1 Coppercreek is. 2 This is Coppercreek is going all the way 3 around. 4 A The dumpster is like right here on the 5 first parking lot. 6 Okay. 7 A My car was parked right behind it, but I 8 was standing not that far from the dumpster. 9 So you are having a smoke, you're talking, 10 you're chilling, this is a Saturday, you're enjoying 11 life, right? 12 A Yes, ma'am. 13 I saw your testimony or read it on the 14 transcript where you were happy to be out there? 15 A Yeah, it was a beautiful day. 16 Is that what you meant by that? 17 A Yeah. 18 Then what? 19 A So we was out there talking, notice 20 Ferguson was coming from the back, from the 21 Northwinds Apartment. 22 When you say Ferguson, you mean a police 23 officer? 24 A Ferguson police officer was coming. 25 He was in a marked police car? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 88 A Yes, he was in a SUV. 2 And why did you notice him? 3 A I mean, because we was all standing on the 4 parking lot and they was coming. 5 When you say they, more than one? 6 A There was two in the car. 7 But just one car? 8 A Yes, SUV. 9 And tell me again why you notice the car? 10 A Because they was riding through. And, I ll guess, that's their way of making their rounds or 12 whatever. So I really didn't pay no attention, but 13 in the midst of that I guess Mike Brown and his 14 friend, not guessing, they was on their way back up. 15 Which way were they walking down? 16 A They was coming back towards, like they 17 was coming towards the Northwinds Apartment. 18 Show me? 19 A They was coming back that way. 20 (indicating) 2l All right. And the police car, did it 22 have its light on or anything like that? 23 A No, it did not. 24 Was it like driving fast 25 A No, they was like Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 89 or like patrolling? 2 A Like patrolling. 3 All right. So Mike Brown and his friend 4 are walking east on Canfield Drive and what happens 5 then? 6 A They was walking in the middle of the 7 street. 8 Okay. 9 A I didn't hear what the police had said to 10 'em or what the remark was, but they was in the II middle of the street. I want to say the guy, his 12 friend was, we didn't stay that far, I heard him 13 say, we didn't stay far. 14 You heard the friend say that? 15 A I heard the friend say, we didn't stay 16 that far. 17 We didn't stay that far? 18 A Right. 19 Don't know what was going on with that? 20 A Don't know what was going on or what was 2l said. 22 Did you hear Mike Brown say anything? 23 A No, I didn't. 24 Did you hear the police officer say 25 anything? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 90 A I didn't hear anything. 2 Now, I need you to show me again where you 3 were when you heard his friend say, we didn't go 4 that far or what he said? 5 A I was standing like right in the parking 6 lot, I was still standing like, not that close from 7 the dumpster. 8 Okay. 9 A And they was sort of walking like in the 10 middle of the street. ll So where were they when you heard it? 12 A Right up in there. (indicating) 13 Where was the police car, right next to 14 them or something? 15 A It is like right next to 'em, they like in 16 the middle of the street, right in the middle of the 17 street. 18 Okay. 19 A He pulled up like, they divide each other. 20 They in the middle walking up the street, the police 2l coming down, of course, they like split through. 23 Okay. So you saw them split up, they were 24 on either side of the police car? 25 A Yes. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 91 1 What side of the police car was Mike Brown 2 on? 3 A On the driver's side. 4 What side was Dorian? 5 A The passenger side. 6 So they were on opposite sides of the car? 7 A Yes. 8 Was Dorian talking to anybody on the 9 passenger side? 10 A Huh?uh. 11 Okay. And then what did you see? 12 A I seen the police pull off and then next 13 thing you know, he pulled back. 14 In what manner did he pull back, was it 15 quick, was it just normal, was there anything 16 noticeable about how he pulled back? 17 A Wasn't noticeable. 18 So he pulls back? 19 A Pulls back. 20 Does he pull back straight in a line or 21 some other way? 22 A I want to say straight back in a line. 23 So like if I'm going to back, he just went 24 straight back, he didn't move one way or the other? 25 A No. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 92 1 Okay, go ahead. 2 A So as he pulled back, I guess that's when 3 he went to go and try to grab him. 4 Did you say you guess? 5 A Well, no, he grabbed, he went to go and 6 grab him, that's when they start tussling. 7 So the police officer pulls back and grabs 8 Mike Brown? 9 A Yes, and they was tussling. 10 Could you see the officer's arm? ll A He grabbed him from the outside, just 12 grabbed him. 13 I want to kind of focus on what you saw. 14 Did you see the officer's arm? 15 A No, I did not. 16 You didn't see the officer's arm, but he 17 was grabbing him? 18 A Like I say, I just seen a little l9 altercation. I didn't know if he was, oh Lord, 20 excuse me, I got nervous. 2l Don't get nervous, we're just trying to 22 find out what you saw. 23 A They was tussling I, can say they was 24 tussling. I didn't see his arm or anything. 25 You didn't see the officer's arm? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 93 1 A No. 2 Could you see Mike Brown's? 3 A I did see him shy back, like he went to go 4 and jump back. 5 Okay. 6 A And that's when we first was like what's 7 going on. Then, that's when we heard the first 8 shot. 9 Okay. Now, before we get to the shot, I 10 want to make sure I understand. Can you see, where 11 you are looking at Mike Brown and the officer, 12 because all of this is real important, and I know 13 you probably know this because that's why you had 14 these interviews. 15 When you see Mike Brown and the 16 officer and you believe they're tussling, are you 17 looking, is your vision at the passenger side of the 18 car or the driver's side of the car? 19 A The passenger side. 20 Okay. So you're standing here and the car 21 is going west, so you're at the passenger side and 22 the driver's side 23 A On the left side, so I really couldn't 24 see. So, therefore, when they was on the passenger 25 side, he grabbed back, that's when the first gunshot FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepengnconl State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 94 1 went off. 2 Right. I know you want to get to that 3 gunshot, but I really want to make sure that we're 4 Clear on your vantage point, you know, like where 5 you could see it, like where you were. 6 A I was standing right by the dumpster. 7 You can see Dorian still? 8 9 Just to help us a little bit, we don't know where 10 the dumpster is. Can you mark that on there for us, 11 please? 12 A Let's see. It may not even be on the 13 photo I don't think. I don't want to do it wrong. 14 There's another parking lot. I want to say it was 15 like right up here, dumpster right here, dumpster 16 right here. (indicating) 17 You were right next to the 18 dumpster you said? 19 A I was like right up in there by the 20 dumpster. (indicating) 21 MS. WHIRLEY: Where are they when you saw 22 them, like you said, tussling? 23 A This is Copperoreek, this is Canfield, 24 here is the tree, they was like right up in here. 25 (indicating) FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepengnconl State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 95 1 MS. WHIRLEY: Okay. 2 A Like right up in there. (indicating) 3 Thank you. 4 MS. ALIZADEH: Can I ask while you were 5 standing up there. I couldn't see around you, use 6 the pen and where is the dumpster? No, just sit 7 down if you can. 8 A It is, I need glasses, it is right there. 9 (indicating) 10 MS. ALIZADEH: Good, all right, I just 11 couldn't see. 12 (By Ms. Whirley) Now, we've got to ask you 13 about your vision. 14 A I do need glasses, excuse me. 15 What do you need glass for? 16 A For? 17 To see far way? 18 A Yes, ma'am. 19 Do you need glasses like me to read up 20 close also? 21 A Yes. 22 Do you wear glasses? 23 A I don't have them, but I do. 24 Do you have contacts instead? 25 A No. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 96 So you need help with your Vision, but you 2 don't have any? 3 A No. 4 Okay. So that particular day were you 5 wearing anything to help your vision? 6 A Huh?uh. 7 But you did need some help? 8 A I mean, it was light so. 9 You were okay? 10 A I was okay. ll So you're pretty firm and secure about 12 what you saw you are telling us about? 13 A Yes. 14 Even though your vision is not perfect? 15 A Yes. 16 How about your hearing? 17 A Fine. 18 No problem with the hearing? 19 A No problem. 20 Don't need an aid or anything? 2l A No. 22 Okay. You know, I'm going to ask you, do 23 you think you were as close to the scene where the 24 officer and Mike Brown were tussling as this room 25 depicts or was it much further than this room? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 97 Like from where you are, I start walking, is it beyond this wall, how close you were 2 3 to them? 4 A Yeah. 5 Okay. 6 A There was the street and the dumpster was 7 kind of a little ways. 8 So it was a pretty good little distance? 9 A Yeah. 10 But you see? ll A But I could see. 12 And you're sure of what you saw? 13 A Yeah. 14 Now, you did tell us today that you 15 weren't sure what they were doing in the car, but 16 they were tussling? 17 A They was tussling. 18 At one point you thought that the officer l9 grabbed Mike Brown? 20 A When he pulled back. 2l When he pulled back, did he grab Mike 22 Brown. Are you sure or unsure about that today? 23 A I'm sure he pulled back. 24 When the officer pulled back, you mean 25 backed the car up? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 98 1 A When he backed the car up. 2 He grabbed Mike Brown? 3 A Yes. 4 That was the first physical thing that 5 happened? Is that a yes? 6 A Yes, ma'am. 7 So how did he grab him, where did he grab 8 him at? 9 A Like by the shirt, like the neck collar 10 part. 11 So was the car window down? 12 A Yes, it was. 13 So did you see his arm? 14 A When it went out the window. 15 Uh?huh. 16 A Yes, ma'am. 17 Okay. You weren't clear on that earlier. 18 A Yes. 19 So you say you did see his arm? 20 A When he went out the window. 21 You could see, what color was he? 22 A He was white. 23 He was white. He didn't have 24 A Uniform. 25 I mean, did he have on a uniform? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 99 A Yes. 2 Long or short sleeve? 3 A Short sleeve. 4 Okay. And he grabbed him and what 5 happened when he grabbed him? 6 A That's when the tussling started, and 7 that's when the first pow went off. 8 Did you see them tussling once the officer 9 grabbed him, there was a tussle? 10 A There was a tussle. ll How long would you say that tussle went 12 on? 13 A It wasn't long. It wasn't long at all. 14 Seconds, minutes? 15 A It was probably, maybe like two minutes. 16 Okay. We know that's a guess, correct? 17 A Yes. 18 All right. 19 A I'm not going to be 20 Did you see Mike Brown hit the officer? 2l A No. 22 Okay. Did you see him with his fist, did 23 you see his handswas trying to get away. 25 Show us what you mean? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 100 A He was like, when the police grabbed him, 2 it was like as if he was trying to, like break away 3 from the police. 4 Okay. So you didn't see his hands inside 5 the police car? 6 A No, ma'am. 7 You didn't see him, his body inside the 8 police car? 9 A No, ma'am. 10 Okay. So then what did you see? ll A When the police grabbed him by the neck, 12 he shied away from him, that's when the first shot 13 went off. His friend Dorian ran and hid beside a 14 black Monte Carlo that was also parked on Canfield 15 in front of an apartment building. Not that far, 16 like right up in here. (indicating) 17 Okay. 18 A He hid right here. That's when Mike 19 Brown, on the first shot, he turned around and ran. 20 I was trying to run and there was another lady who 2l was also coming out of her apartment was in the 22 midst of running. 23 Did it appear that Dorian was hit by that 24 first shot? Not Dorian, Mike Brown, was hit by the 25 first shot? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 101 1 A Yes, ma'am. 2 Why do you say that? 3 A Because when he turned around, I seen a 4 red spot on his shirt. 5 Now, you are pointing to your upper right? 6 A He got shot up in this area. (indicating) 7 Are you saying the right or the left? 8 A When you turn around, I want to say might 9 have been on the left. 10 I don't want you to guess. 11 A The left I will say. 12 Are you sure about that? 13 A Yeah, I'm sure. 14 OkayRed spot on his shirt. 16 Okay. 17 A And that's when he stopped and when he 18 stopped. 19 When you say he stopped, did he stop right 20 at the car? 21 A No, he stop, actually, like it's like a 22 light pole and a tree. He stopped right there at 23 that tree and the light pole. 24 We have to kind of take it step by step, I 25 know you are getting tired of all of this, but Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 102 1 that's how we have to do. I tell us how far he got 2 away from that car when he stopped, did you see him 3 leave the car. 4 A When I seen him break away from the car, 5 he was running. That gave me the assumption that I 6 was going to run. 7 Okay. What did he do when the shot was 8 fired, did he just break and run? 9 A He broke and run, but he stopped, he 10 stopped in stride. 11 I want to know about him running though, 12 where did he go behind the car? 13 A No, he didn't go behind no car. 14 What did he do? 15 A His friend ran behind the car. 16 Where did Mike Brown run to? 17 A He ran towards the light, he was running 18 like towards the light pole, like towards my 19 direction. 20 Okay. The dumpster you show us was here? 21 A Yeah, and he was running like towards that 22 way. 23 So in the grass? 24 And he stopped his stride and stopped 25 right there like by the tree in between the light FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 103 1 pole. 2 Okay. 3 A He stopped, hands was up. 4 Can you show us how he, well, first of 5 all, you didn't say he turned around, did he turn 6 around or was he running backwards? 7 A No, he was running like towards my 8 direction. 9 Okay. 10 A Looking toward like my way. 11 Okay. 12 A He stopped. 13 Uh?huh. 14 A And that's when he turned around. 15 Show us that. Show us like, you know, go 16 that way and then show us how you turn around? 17 A He, I'm standing over there, he's running 18 and then he turns around and he was like that way. 19 (indicating) 20 Did you hear him say anything? 21 A He might of. 22 You don't have to guess, did you hear him 23 say anything? 24 A That's where I thought I heard him say he 25 gave up. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 104 You heard him say what? 2 A I give up. 3 You're not sure? 4 A I heard him say don't give up. 5 Don't give up? 6 A I give up, I mean. 7 I give up. 8 A I give up. 9 Where did he say that? 10 A That's when he started walking back ll towards the officer. 12 So how was he walking towards the officer? 13 A He went like this with his hands up, and 14 when he reached that way that's when the police 15 started four shots. (indicating) 16 How did he reach. You say he reached that 17 way? 18 A I mean, he had his hands up like this, he 19 never went down or reached out, he still had his 20 hands up. And that's when the police started 2l letting off more shots. 22 You never saw him like go to his waist? 23 A His hands never went down. 24 When the officer was shooting? 25 A When the officer start shooting, his hands Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 105 1 never went down. 2 How many shots did the officer fire? 3 A Uh, it was over six, it was six to nine 4 rounds. 5 A11 about -- 6 A The first shot pow, pause. 7 And that was at the car? 8 A That was at the car. 9 Okay. 10 A When he turned around to go back, as if he 11 was surrendering, that's when the rest of the shots 12 started going off. 13 Okay. So when Mike Brown was surrendering 14 and he was walking towards the officer, what was the 15 officer doing before he started shooting or did he 16 just start shooting? 17 A He just started shooting. 18 The officer didn't back up or walk toward 19 Mike Brown? 20 A He just started shooting. 21 Did he say anything to him, like get down? 22 A No, he just started shooting. 23 He didn't tell him to stop or anything? 24 A If he did, I didn't hear that part, I just 25 know the gunshots start ringing off. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 106 1 Were you close enough to hear it? 2 A The gunshots? 3 Were you close enough to hear if the 4 officer said something? 5 A No. 6 You were not close enough? 7 A No. 8 But you were close enough to hear Mike 9 Brown? 10 A He screamed like, I give up. 11 He was screaming? 12 A He screamed, I give up. 13 So if the officer was screaming a command 14 or something, do you expect to have heard it? 15 A I would have heard it. 16 Okay. Now, this other officer, when did 17 you see him, you said it was two officers in the 18 car? 19 A Yes, I mean, when he got out of the car, I 20 didn't really get no description of him. 21 Before you kind of jump too far. Are you 22 saying the officer, the other officer? 23 A He was in the passenger seat. 24 He was in the passenger seat, in the 25 front? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 107 1 A The front seatthe car? 3 A (Shakes head.) 4 Okaythe car? 5 A No, ma'am. 6 Okay. From what you could see, what did 7 you, what did you tell us about the other officer 8 was he a black or white man? 9 A He was a white cop too. 10 Did he look young or old? 11 A He could have been middle age or young, I 12 don't know. 13 Did he look to be in uniform? 14 A They both was in uniform. 15 Okay. But he never got out of the car? 16 A No. 17 Or you didn't see him? 18 A I didn't see the passenger door open at 19 all. 20 Okay. And since your vantage point was 21 from the passenger side, that's where Dorian was? 22 A Yes. 23 You could see this other officer in the 24 car? 25 A Yes. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 108 1 And that officer never got out to assist 2 3 A I never 4 I have to ask the question and then you 5 answer. He can't take us both down at the same 6 time. 7 A I'm sorry. 8 You never, when the officer, when the 9 gunshot went off, you never saw the other officer do 10 anything? 11 A No, ma'am. 12 And when Darren Wilson we know is the 13 shooting officer, when he got out, the other officer 14 never got out to assist him? 15 A No, ma'am. 16 But you're positive there was another 17 officer in the car? 18 A Yes, ma'am. 19 Okay. Did you ever see a weapon fall? 20 A (Shakes head.) 21 Did you ever see Mike Brown with a weapon? 22 A No, ma'am. 23 And when I ask you about a weapon falling, 24 what was your answer? 25 A No. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 109 1 Okay. When you saw Mike Brown stop and 2 turn around, I think your first statement on August 3 the 16th, and we've had your statement so we know, 4 at least the first one, of course, I think you 5 mention that he turned around as if he was defending 6 himself or giving up, which are two different 7 things. 8 A Well, there was so much going on, I meant 9 to say he was surrendering himself. I didn't say to 10 defend hisself, I meant to say surrendering. 11 Okay. Surrendering or giving up? 12 A Giving up. 13 Is what you meant? 14 A Yes, ma'am. 15 Did it look like at any time he was trying 16 to defend himself from the officer to you? 17 A As far as getting away, he grabbed him, 18 yes, it was like as if he was like, why is you 19 grabbing me, like what did I do, that type. 20 Okay. Now, when Mike Brown was running 21 away, you were trying to explain to me how he ran. 22 So you said he didn't run very far, so explain that 23 to me? 24 A I mean, from the middle of the street to 25 the light pole like where, it is like light pole and FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 110 1 there is some trees right there in front of his 2 apartment building right there. 3 Uh-huh. 4 A Like the parking lot, he didn't run that 5 far from Mike from right here to there. It wasn't 6 far at all. (indicating) 7 Okay. Before he turned around? 8 A Before he turned around. 9 And when he was running away from the 10 officer, when he had his back to the officer, did 11 you hear any shots being fired? 12 A No. 13 How many shots would you say you heard 14 total from the start of the car? 15 A One, I'm going to say like it's about six, 16 between six and nine shots. 17 Okay. And when he was walking towards the 18 officer? 19 A He had his hands up. 20 He had his hands up? 21 A Yes, ma'am. 22 Did you ever see him like run towards the 23 officer? 24 A No, ma'am. He stopped and he turns around 25 and he like was walking back towards the officer. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page What was your opinion of why he was 2 walking towards the officer? 3 A Like as if he was surrendering, and that 4 first shot, I guess, he noticed he was shot. So he 5 was surrendering hisself like, I give up. Like, 6 what did I do? 7 Did it look like he was falling into the 8 officer's body or something? 9 A No, it was like as if he was walking back 10 towards him. He was going back towards him, that's ll when the police started letting off the shots. 12 Now, did you take any video or pictures of 13 the shooting? 14 A No, I didn't. I didn't get none of that 15 at all. 16 Did you get anything like after the 17 shooting? 18 A I got after the shooting, it's not much, 19 but I got some of it. 20 What did you do with that video, was it 2l video or pictures? 22 A I got videos on my phone. 23 Do you have it with you? 24 A Yes, ma'am. 25 Just hold tight, we will have to deal with Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 112 1 that later. Did you turn that over to the police? 2 A To the FBI. 3 The FBI have it? 4 A Yes. 5 Okay. That's what I need to know. 6 Do you know 7 A No. 8 Okay. Do you remember when you talked to 9 the FBI at the house, I guess it was in Canfield 10 Green? 11 A Uh?huh. 12 Whose house were you at when you were 13 talking to themfriend's house. 15 What is her name? 16 A No, that was a guy. 17 What's his name? 18 A 19 MS. ALIZADEH: I'm sorry, what's his name? 20 A 2l MS. ALIZADEH: 22 A Uh?huh. 23 (By Ms. Whirley) And he lived at Canfield? 24 A Yes. 25 Where was that apartment at that FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 113 1 lived at? 2 A Uh, this one right here. (indicating) 3 Is that 4 A Yeah. 5 Now, in the statement so it could 6 have been 7 A I was at the house next to it. 8 who you were visiting? 9 A Yes, he was at work at the time. So I 10 stepped over here to a house next door. 11 At not that you had to go? 12 MS. ALIZADEH: Sheila. 13 MS. WHIRLEY: How did you happen to go. 14 MS. ALIZADEH: It says we are at apartment 15 and then the person says 16 MS. WHIRLEY: Okay. Thank you for that 17 correction. So you were right, is where you 18 were? 19 A Uh?huh. 20 (By Ms. Whirley) So what was is that 21 where lives? 22 A Yes, he stay was standing outside and I was talking 25 to the people the night before, I was talking to FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 114 1 them. 2 Okay. 3 A And the agent, all of them pulled up. It 4 was a burden on my chest just to know that it 5 happened like that and I felt like I should say 6 something, just give my opinions because I was 7 there. 8 Okay. 9 A So I just went on and I told them I seen a 10 little bit and I went on in and told them what I 11 saw. 12 Okay. You didn't know the people that 13 were at who lived there? 14 A No. 15 Because there was a few people there, they 16 were all talking? 17 A Yeah, they was talking. I don't know them 18 like that so, like I said, that was my friend's 19 house. Basically I can come over there and talk to 20 them in there. 21 You didn't know 22 A No. 23 Did anybody ever there show you a video of 24 the shooting? 25 A No. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 115 1 Okay. Or say they had a video that you 2 know of? 3 A No. 4 All right. Now, you said you wanted to 5 say something because of the way it happened? 6 A Yes. 7 Well, tell us what you mean by that? 8 A I mean, I just fell like, I mean, he 9 didn't do anything wrong. I mean, from him walking 10 from the store or anything, or whatever, to the 11 place out in the street or what the police did, I 12 didn't know. But I just felt like it was wrong, why 13 would you shoot an unarmed child with his hands up. 14 And the part you did actually see some 15 kind of scuffle at the car or you said the officer 16 snatched him at the car or grabbed him? 17 A Grabbed him by his shirt. 18 You didn't see Michael Brown start any 19 type of physical skirmish or anything? 20 A No, ma'am. 21 You saw it from the very beginnings? 22 A From the very beginning, I was talking on 23 the phone. We was all out there just talking like I 24 said the police was riding down the street, they was 25 walking in the middle of the street, pulled up and FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 116 1 said something and he pulled back and that's when he 2 went to grab him by his shoulder. 3 Now, let's go back to when Michael Brown 4 turned around, had his hands up as you tell us, and 5 he was shot at least five or six times as he was 6 walking towards the officerhit the ground? 8 A When he hit the ground, he fell hands up 9 and that's how he was laying. 10 Did he fall, how did he fall? 11 A He fell, like fell down like on his knees 12 and he just fell. 13 Did he go down on his knees for a minute 14 firstdropped down and he fell. 16 Where did he land? 17 A In the middle of Canfield, like right up 18 in there. (indicating) 19 And was he, face on the beyond? 20 A Face on the ground. 21 All right. And what did the officer do 22 once he fell? 23 A I seen an officer walk over, check his 24 pulse, stand up, and he walked away. 25 What officer was that that checked his FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 117 1 pulse? 2 A I don't have the slightest idea, I don't 3 know. 4 Was it the officer that did the shooting? 5 A I don't know. 6 You're not sure? 7 A Not sure. 8 Initially you thought it was? 9 A I thought it was. 10 Why did you decide it may not have been? 11 A Because the picture of the police, didn't 12 look like the picture of the man who checked his 13 pulse. 14 What picture now? 15 A On the news, that didn't look like Darren 16 Wilson who took the pulse. 17 You said you didn't see the other guy who 18 was riding with him? 19 A No. 20 Now, on one part of your statement, let's 21 see, it is on page 17, have you ever looked at your 22 statement? 23 A Huh?uhyou need to, but I just 25 had a question about, um, you said that before, on FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 118 1 page 17 at the top, before the first shot, you talk 2 about slamming his hand and like I said once, I 3 guess once he flung his hand, that's when the first 4 shot rung off and it hit him. What did you mean by 5 slam his hand? 6 A I guess when he grabbed him by his shirt, 7 you know, reaction from a person grabbing your 8 shirt, you are going to initially grab his hand to 9 try to snatch it away or smack his hand away. 10 You talking about Mike Brown slamming the 11 officer's hand away? 12 A Yeah. 13 Did you see Mike Brown strike the officer? 14 A No, ma'am. 15 And once Mike Brown is down on the ground, 16 did the officer shoot any more? 17 A Somehow, all I know, I didn't know if he 18 got in the head. We notice there was a blood trail 19 coming from his head as he was laying on the street. 20 Okay. But my question is, you saw him hit 21 the ground? 22 A Yes, ma'am. 23 Did the officer shoot any more? 24 A No, ma'am, I don't think he shot any more 25 after he hit the ground. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 119 1 You didn't hear any more shots after he 2 hit the ground? 3 A No, ma'am. 4 What did the officer do when he hit the 5 ground, do you recall? 6 A Nothing. 7 Okay. Was there any point that you 8 thought maybe when you first talked to the FBI 9 agents that the officer shot him while he was on the 10 ground? 11 A It could have happened that way like once 12 he fell. 13 Did you ever think that? 14 A Yes, I did. 15 Tell us why, tell us a little bit more 16 like that? 17 A There was too many shots. After a certain 18 many shots he fell. And I guess he was going to 19 make sure, I didn't know if he was absolutely there, 20 I don't know. It is how it happened. 21 But it seemed to you he was still shooting 22 at him once he fell? 23 A Yes, ma'am. 24 Does it seem that way today? 25 A Yeah. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 120 1 Okay. But you didn't see it? 2 A No, ma'am. 3 You just assume it? 4 A I mean, I saw it. 5 I know, don't be nervous. 6 A It's crazythink he did, I think he did shoot him 9 once while he's down on his knees. 10 But you're not sure? ll A No, I'm not. 12 Was he on his knees for a minute? 13 A No, like once he fell, as he was shooting, 14 he was falling and. 15 So he wasn't like on his knees and the 16 officer was shooting him? 17 A Like um, um, um, he could have been 18 shooting him as he was going down, yes, ma'am. 19 But you didn't see him stand over him once 20 he is down? 2l A No. 22 You're sure of that? 23 A Yes, I'm positive. 24 Now, why did you think you needed to come 25 forward, you said you didn't like that, what are Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 121 1 your thoughts about that, did you feel that the 2 officer was being threatened by Mike Brown? 3 A He could have. 4 What are your thoughts on that in viewing 5 what you saw? 6 A I can't say on behalf of the police if he 7 felt threatened, he could have cause he was a big 8 guy. I thought he was a grown man when I saw him. 9 Okay. 10 A He could have felt threatened because of 11 his height and his weight. He could have felt 12 threaten by him. 13 I guess I should have asked that a little 14 differently. Did it appear to you that Mike Brown 15 was threatening him? 16 A No, it didn't seem like that at all. They 17 wasn't causing no trouble at all period. They was 18 like walking. 19 And why did you want to come forward and 20 tell what happened? 21 A Because it was wrong. 22 What was wrong? 23 A For the police to shoot him like that 24 numerous times. After the first shot, I mean, after 25 the first shot that should been enough if he's FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 122 surrendering with his arms up and not making no type 2 of movement saying that he had a weapon or anything, 3 I felt that was wrong. 4 So that from what you could see, there was 5 another officer to assist him in the car? 6 A Yes, ma'am. 7 You actually saw another officer? 8 A Yes, ma'am. 9 MS. WHIRLEY: I don't think I have 10 anything else. Kathi? ll (By Ms. Alizadeh) Okay. Ma'am, I'm going 12 to ask you some more questions and they might seem 13 kind of tough questions, okay? 14 A Okay. 15 One thing we need to slow this down. That 16 means when I speak and answer a question, try to 17 wait until I'm finished with the question before you 18 answer. 19 A Okay. 20 It helps them to follow what's going on 2l and it certainly helps the court reporter because 22 his fingers are on fire right now trying to keep up 23 with this, okay. 24 And I might slow you down 25 occasionally. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 123 1 A Okay. 2 I'm going to ask you a question. I don't 3 ask you this to embarrass you in any way. Do you 4 take any medication? 5 A No, ma'am. 6 Okay. Is there anything that you are 7 supposed to be taking medication for? 8 A No, ma'am. 9 Okay. So I see you raise your eyebrows. 10 I'm just asking because kind of ADHD and 11 sometimes he talks very fast and I didn't know if 12 anybody ever told you that? 13 A Huh?uh. 14 You're a fast talker. 15 A Yes, I am. 16 Okay. So let me back up, see if I can 17 understand. When you say that you were going into 18 the complex, I'm not sure if I understood the reason 19 that you were going in there. 20 You said you were coming back from 21 the store? 22 A I have a friend who stays right next door 23 to the apartment who I was, he stays 24 in that apartment where I was going to visit. 25 Okay. Were you specifically going to FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 124 1 visit him or were you cutting through to go back to 2 your place and you were going to stop? 3 A It was a little bit of both. 4 And correct me if I'm wrong. I think you 5 said that it is not unusual for you to go through 6 Canfield to get to where you live, can you get to 7 where you live by going through Canfield? 8 A Uh?huh. 9 Okay. So when you were going through that 10 that day, were you going home, or were you going 11 through there to stop and visit your friend? 12 A I was going home, but just by me going 13 through, I was just generally just stopping to see a 14 friend. 15 Okay. And we know it was a beautiful 16 Saturday day? 17 A Uh?huh. 18 Do you know other people in the complex? 19 A No, I mean, I know just because I've been 20 over there with my friend. So, I mean, I just stop. 21 I saw them when my friend wasn't at home, saw them 22 and just generally speaking. 23 So your friend, I think 24 you've been inside his apartment before? 25 A Uh?huh. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 125 1 How about anybody else that lives in 2 Canfield, have you ever been inside anyone else's 3 apartment? 4 A No. 5 The other people you met in Canfield was 6 kind of in passing by? 7 A Yes, ma'am. 8 And so on that day, you said you were 9 coming this direction? 10 A No, I was coming. 11 Oh, okay, I'm confused. You are coming 12 from this direction? 13 A Yes, ma'am. 14 And you turn onto Coppercreek Court? 15 A Yes. It is a lot like right here. I was 16 on the back lot. I pulled directly in front on the 17 lot in the back, back by the dumpster. 18 You are in the lot that's on Canfield 19 Court? 20 A Yes. 21 You were going to go visit this person 22 at 23 A Yes. 24 at 25 A Yes, ma'am. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 126 1 And is there, just out of curiosity, a 2 reason you didn't go and park closer to his 3 apartment? 4 A Like I say, it was neighbors standing out 5 right there and I stopped right there. 6 Okay. Who was standing out? 7 A His name is and I want to say 8 I call her 9 You saw a man named you 10 call him ll A Uh?huh. 12 And a woman named 13 A Uh?huh. 14 So when you pulled up into the parking 15 lot, were they outside? 16 A Yes, they were. 17 Were they on the ground or were they like 18 on a balcony? 19 A On a balcony. 20 Okay. Do you know what building number 21 where they were on the balcony? 22 A Uh, stayed in the next apartment on 23 the other side, on this side on the second floor and 24 he was up on the balcony. 25 Okay. So was on the balcony on the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 127 1 second floor on did you point right there? 2 A Not the apartment where I was standing at, 3 on the other side. I don't know quite what that 4 address is on the other side. 5 Just where I'm pointing, is that where you 6 had the laser pointer right here, he was on the 7 balcony? 8 A Yes, on the second floor. 9 On the second floor. And your friend 10 lives? 11 A Yes, over there on that sideyour car? 13 A Yeah, and walked right over toward 14 thing, and we was all standing right 15 there by the dumpster. Well, was 16 standing over there by the dumpster. 17 Okay. There's a dumpster here? 18 A Uh?huh. 19 That's in the parking lot of Coppercreek 20 Court? 21 A And my car was parked right there. 22 (indicating) 23 Hang on, let me finish. And there's a 24 dumpster here that's in the parking lot of Canfield 25 Court? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 128 1 A Uh?huh. 2 Which dumpster was standing by? 3 A The one right there on Coppercreek. 4 The one on Coppercreek Court? 5 A (Nods head.) 6 Do you know was she standing, if this is 7 south, okay. Was she on the south side of the 8 dumpster, on the north side of the dumpster, was she 9 in the parking lot or was she behind? 10 A Parking lot. 11 In the parking lot. And was on his 12 balcony? 13 A Balcony. 14 So point to the map where you parked your 15 car? 16 A Like right up in here. (indicating) 17 Okay. And when you walked, where did you 18 walk to? 19 A I walked over to the balcony, got a 20 cigarette from and then I walked over there to 21 talk to 22 Okay. When you got the cigarette from 23 did come down off the balcony? 24 A Not just yet, he didn't come down until 25 the commotion started. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 129 1 Okay. Let's get to that in a minute. 2 Okay. 3 But when he, so did he toss a cigarette to 4 you? 5 A Yes, ma'amtossed it down to me. 8 Okay. So you know him well enough, hi 9 can I have a cigarette? 10 A Yeah. 11 All right. So when you say, after you got 12 the cigarette, you walk down here? 13 A Uh?huh, because I was talking to 14 15 You call her 16 A Uh?huh. 17 You said you saw, at some point, maybe I'm 18 confused, when you first saw the boys, which 19 direction were they walking? 20 A They was walking towards West Florissant. 21 There was a lot right up here, this is a grass area. 22 Yes. 23 They walked from somewhere up in this 24 area, they walked across the lot and go down 25 Canfield. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 130 1 Okay. When the officer's car pulled up 2 and confronted the boys, is that as they were 3 walking this direction down Canfield? 4 A No, they was coming back. 5 Okay. That is what I was confused about. 6 So you're standing there talking to 7 smoking a cigarette and how long were you there 8 before you saw those boys again? 9 A Maybe 20, 25 minutes. 10 Just standing in the parking lot talking? II A We was just standing there talking. 12 Did you see any other people around this 13 area? 14 A It was some people standing out like by 15 the Canfield Court. I mean, there was lot of people 16 standing, I mean there was people standing in the 17 Canfield Court area. There was some people outside. 18 Did you ever see anybody that looked like 19 they were working on buildings or working on things? 20 A Some construction workers? 2l Yes. 22 A Yes. 23 Where were they? 24 A They was like, they was like on Canfield, 25 like back up in the this area by Canfield Court. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 131 1 (indicating) So you got the laser pointer on a grassy 2 3 patch between the sidewalk that's on the north side 4 of Canfield Drive and the actual street? 5 A Yeah. 6 In between Coppercreek Court and Canfield 7 Court. So what were they doing in this area? 8 A Can't say what they was doing, probably 9 working on some sewer lines. 10 So were they like digging or could you 11 tell? 12 A I want to say they was digging. They was 13 doing a lot of digging around there, so I say they 14 was digging. 15 Okay. Now remember when we talked before 16 we came in here, I don't want you to guess at 17 things. So remember I said if, I really don't know 18 is the right answer, that I'd rather have you say 19 that. 20 A Okay. I don't know. 21 Okay. Did you stay here with 22 the entire 30 minutes from the time the boys left to 23 when they came back? 24 A Yeah. 25 was still there when the boys Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 132 1 came back. So was she standing there at the 2 dumpster when the whole thing with the police car 3 happened at the police car? 4 A Yeah. 5 You mention that eventually came down 6 when the commotion started. 7 A He sat on his balcony so, when the police 8 did all the shooting, that's when he came down. He 9 knew I forgot to call the ambulance and stuff like 10 that. 11 Were you still standing, and I'pen here where that dumpster is on 13 Coppercreek Court, there's a little, looks like 14 painted lines in a little box so people don't park 15 in front of it, would that be fair to say? 16 A Yes, ma'am. 17 Were you like in that box? 18 A I was somewhere up in there. 19 Somewhere up in therepolice vehicle coming westbound on Canfield Drive? 21 A Yes, ma'am. 22 At this point did you see the boys walking 23 back? 24 A Well, not at that time, but when they got 25 closer up toward this apartment building, that's FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 133 I when I saw them, like right up in here. 2 (indicating) 3 Now, let me ask you, ma'am, because if the 4 initial encounter at the vehicle, after the vehicle 5 backed up and the shooting occurred, did you ever 6 see that vehicle move againwere to tell you that vehicle 9 was photographed by crime scene detectives right 10 around in this area, would that be about your ll recollection? 12 A Yes, ma'am. 13 Can I ask you, ma'amthis dumpster, you can possibly see what's going 15 on at the police car because wouldn't this building 16 obstruct your view? 17 A No. 18 So you're saying if you stand at this 19 dumpster, I'm going to use a piece of paper as like 20 a straight edge. 2l A Uh?huh. 22 We all know people can't see around 23 corners, right? 24 A (Nods head.) 25 And so if the police vehicle was somewhere FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 134 1 around here and you are at that dumpster, do you see 2 that the line of sight for that area goes through 3 this building, doesn't it? 4 A Yes. 5 So can you explain to me how it is that 6 you can stand there and see what happens at that 7 police car? 8 A I mean, I saw. Cause it is like two 9 dumpsters on Canfield, on Coppercreek. 10 Okay. 11 A But it might be the second one, but it is 12 more like there is one right there closer toward the 13 street. I was closer toward the street. 14 So you think that you were closer toward 15 Canfield Drive? 16 A Yes, I was. The dumpster right there up 17 there by the apartment and then dumpster right down 18 here. 19 Despite the fact that you just for the 20 last 15 minutes or longer, when Sheila was 21 questioning you too. 22 A Uh?huh. 23 You put yourself here? (indicating) 24 A I mean, there's the dumpster that I see. 25 I mean, there is two dumpsters, so it can be either FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 135 1 one. 2 Okay. Do you believe that there's two 3 dumpsters there today? 4 A I mean, the one dumpster up there by the 5 apartment and the one down here closer to CanfieId. 6 So you think there is another dumpster 7 that's in this parking lot that's closer to 8 Canfield? 9 A Yes. 10 Because I'm confused. 11 A Okay. 12 And I'm not trying to put you on the spot. 13 A No. 14 You remember I said we have got to ask 15 tough questions. 16 A Yes, ma'am. 17 And remember I said at some point you say 18 you know what, maybe I really didn't see that. If 19 that's the true answer, that's what we want today, 20 okay? 21 A Yes, ma'am. 22 And if you say absolutely not, I know I 23 saw it. If that's the true answer, that what I want 24 you to say, okay? 25 A Uh-huh. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 136 1 But based upon what you're telling me 2 earlier, do you understand how it would be very 3 difficult for me to believe that you could see that 4 vehicle if you were at that dumpster and the police 5 car were here? (indicating) 6 A Uh?huh. 7 So now you're saying you were closer to 8 the street. Were you in the parking lot or on the 9 grass? 10 A was on the parking lot. 11 Was with you at that location 12 or was she farther up the parking lot? 13 A She was like right there in the same area 14 where I was at. 15 She was next to you? 16 A Uh?huh. 17 Were you having a conversation? 18 A We was all having a conversation. 19 Okay, all right. I have to use my glasses 20 to read what I write, okay. Now, you said that when 21 the officer was driving west on Canfield, you see 22 him stop and talk to the boys? 23 A He said something. 24 And you hear 25 A And then he pulled off. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 137 1 But you said you heard the other boy? 2 A I didn't say, he said it loud enough to 3 where I don't say that far. 4 And then there was, did you see any 5 confrontation right then? 6 A No, the police pulled off. 7 Were the boys at the driver's window at 8 that moment? 9 A They was in the middle of the street. 10 I know you've said there were two 11 policeman in the car, were they at the driver's side 12 talking through the driver's window or were they on 13 the passenger side? 14 A They was on each side, one was on one 15 side. 16 Which one was on what side? 17 A Dorian was on, he was on the sidewalk 18 part, closer by the sidewalk, and Mike Brown was 19 like in the middle of the street like crossing over. 20 And then you said the officer pulled 21 forward, did the boys keep walking? 22 A They kept walking like as if they was 23 coming back towards where they was coming from, back 24 towards this way. (indicating) 25 All right. And how far did the officer FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 138 1 get toward West Florissant before he backed up? 2 A They wasn't down there this way. 3 No, no, I meant toward. 4 A They didn't go far at all. 5 Would it have been more than two car 6 7 A Maybe, I would say. 8 And then you said he backed up, quickly or 9 normal? 10 A Normal. 11 All right. So you didn't hear any tires 12 squealing? 13 A No. 14 And then when he backed up, I'm so sorry 15 because I get confused with what everybody else has 16 said and I've listened to so many statements. 17 A That's fine. 18 If my pen is the police car and this is 19 obviously way bigger on the map, when somebody is 20 driving down the street, they drive in a lane and 21 they drive straight, correct? 22 A Uh?huh. 23 So when the officer backed up, did he back 24 straight? 25 A Backed straight. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 139 1 He didn't angle his car in any way? 2 A (Shakes head.) 3 You are shaking your head no. 4 A No. 5 He didn't angle his cartell you that there is photos of that 8 vehicle after the fact where that vehicle is 9 actually angled in the middle of the street, you 10 don't recall that? 11 A No. 12 And when he backed up, and the boys now, 13 are they both on the driver's side when he backs up? 14 A No. 15 Still Dorian is on the passenger side? 16 A On the passenger side. 17 And Michael Brown 18 A Is on the driver's side. 19 And then if you were in this position now, 20 or somewhere on this parking lot farther south than 21 the dumpster, than this dumpster that we have been 22 talking about. 23 If the officer's car is right around 24 in this area and Michael Brown was in the window. 25 If that car was angled, wouldn't you agree with me FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 140 1 that the car would be between you and Michael Brown? 2 A Yes. 3 And when you were at this location and 4 looking at the vehicle when Michael Brown was at the 5 driver's door, was the car in between Michael Brown 6 and you, the police car, yes? 7 A Yes, ma'am. 8 Okay. So the car is blocking part of your 9 View? 10 A Yes, ma'am. ll And wouldn't you agree with me, now 12 Michael Brown we know that he was right, and I 13 would imagine 14 A I thought he was an adult, I didn't know 15 he was no child. 16 I would imagine if he was standing there. 17 He's probably taller than the car, would you think 18 maybe he was? 19 A Yeah. 20 When he was standing at the driver's 2l window of the car, could you see the top of his head 22 or any part of his head over the roof of the car? 23 A I'm not sure. 24 You're not sure? 25 A Yes. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 141 1 That is the correct answer if you are not 2 sure, okay? 3 A Yeah, I'm not sure. 4 And so you said you saw the officer's arm 5 come out of the window and grab him by the shirt 6 collar. Let me ask you this. If the vehicle is in 7 between Michael Brown and you, are you looking 8 through the vehicle to see that? 9 A Yes. 10 Okay. So is the passenger window of the 11 vehicle open? 12 A Yes. 13 You remember the passenger window was 14 down, and obviously, if the officer puts his hand 15 through the driver's side window, we know that 16 window was down? 17 A Yes. 18 Okay. So you're saying that you could see 19 through those windows, and you saw the officer grab 20 Michael Brown by the shirt collar? 21 A Yes, ma'am. 22 Okay. So you're actually looking into the 23 car, if you are seeing through those windows, you 24 have to see into the car, right? 25 A (Nods head.) Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 142 1 And then you would see the front portion 2 of Michael Brown's body? 3 A Yeah. 4 And so if Michael Brown, I mean, if his 5 hands were up, at or near or inside that vehicle 6 A His hands were not in the vehicle at all. 7 Okay. Do you remember saying before that 8 you couldn't really see either of their hands as far 9 as what their hands were doing? 10 A I know when he grabbed him by his shirt. 11 Right. 12 A I seen him when he went to go and like 13 knock his hands back. And that's when the first 14 shot was fired. 15 Well, you've said in your other statement 16 that when you talk about the officer putting his 17 hand out of the car, you say he pulled out and 18 grabbed him. This is difficult for me to do because 19 you guys talk over each other in these statements 20 and so I'm going to do my best and I'm going to show 21 you this so it will be easier for you to follow 22 along. 23 On page 11. So you're in this 24 conversation and SA, that's special agent, so that's 25 the FBI guy. So you were talking about, you know, FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 143 that the officer hadn't got out of the car, but I 2 mean was that, you said he pulled and then you said 3 he pulled. 4 And then the officer says, reach out 5 of the car? And you say, he pulled out and grabbed 6 him. 7 You mean the officer reached out and 8 grabbed Michael Brown, is that what you mean? 9 A Yes, ma'am. 10 He had already, he had his hand on his ll gun? 12 A Yeah, I mean, for him to shoot while he 13 was sitting in his car. 14 Did you see that? 15 A No, I heard the pop. 16 My question is, did you see that the 17 officer had his hand on the officer's gun? 18 A Did I see? 19 Remember, I said don't guess at things. 20 A No. 2l Okay. When you were looking through the 22 vehicle? 23 A I didn't see the officer have his hand on 24 no gun. 25 Did you ever see the gun until the officer FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 144 1 got out of the car? 2 A I heard the pop, that's what I heard. I 3 heard the shot, I didn't see the gun, I heard the 4 shot. 5 Okay. 6 A And I didn't know that the cop went out of 7 his car. 8 Okay. And you understand that it is those 9 little details that matter? 10 A Yes, ma'am. 11 And you say evidently he already had his 12 hand on the gun, I was gathering by his word 13 evidently, that you were guessing at that? 14 A No, I was saying, what I was saying was 15 that evidently he had to have his hand on the gun in 16 order for him to shoot first cause he never had got 17 out of the car. 18 Okay. You're just guessing at that, 19 right? 20 A (Nods head.) 21 Is that right? 22 A Yeah. 23 Okay. And from your vantage point, you 24 never saw the gun in the officer's hand while the 25 officer was in the car? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 145 1 A No, ma'am. 2 And so would it be safe to say that if the 3 officer had his gun in his hand, and if Michael 4 Brown had his hand on the officer's gun, you 5 couldn't see that either, is that fair to say? 6 A Yes. 7 Okay. Now, you testified today that when 8 Michael Brown turned around and he had his hands up, 9 I don't want to frustrate you, do you want some 10 water or anything? 11 A I'm fine. 12 And when he turns around with his hands up 13 you said that, I'm not sure how sure you were to 14 date on this because you said I think so and then 15 you said yes. You said that you heard Mike Brown 16 say, 1 give up. 17 A He did. 18 And then you also said you never heard the 19 officer saying anything? 20 A He didn't. 21 Okay. And I'm going to ask you again in 22 your first statement to the police, and this was on 23 August 16th, this happened on August 16th, would 24 have been the next Saturday when you are talking to 25 the officers on page 17. And the officer, and FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 146 1 you're and this is the special agent. And 2 you say, and that's when he turned around and he was 3 going back toward the police, defend, to give up. 4 And the officer asked, could you hear what was being 5 said. 6 And then another officer said do, and 7 then you said, no, I could not but I 8 And then the agent says, can't hear 9 anybody yelling back and 10 A I said no. 11 And you said no. Back on the 16th you 12 didn't hear anybody say anything? 13 A No. Like I said, when the first shot went 14 off, I know I heard him turn around and say, I give 15 up. Now, as far as him, I say him defending 16 himself, I meant to say he was surrendering himself. 17 Okay. I'm sorry, I started before you 18 finished. 19 A No, I was just saying that he was going 20 back to surrender himself. Like I say when he went 21 back and he turned around, his hands was up. 22 Okay. 23 A He never reached down or like if he had 24 anything or any type of weapon on him or anything. 25 Okay. I think you clarified that with FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 147 Sheila that you didn't mean 2 A Right, I really didn't mean to say defend 3 hisself. 4 My question has to do with the fact that 5 today you testified that you heard Michael Brown say 6 I give upgive up. 8 But back on the 16th, a week after this 9 happened, you said you didn't hear either of them 10 say anything back and forth, back and forth? II A No, I didn't mean that. 12 Okay. Do you think it's possible, have 13 you talked to a lot of people since this has 14 happened about what you saw? 15 A No. 16 You're friends with right? 17 A Uh?huh. 18 And she was there? 19 A She was there. She's just a neighbor and 20 she talks to everyone. 2l Yeah, I know, I've met her. So I'm asking 22 you since this happened this is a big deal. 23 A Yeah, it is, it is a very big deal. 24 You saw something and I know we already 25 talked about this, you wish you weren't there. You FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 148 1 were in the wrong place at the wrong time. And 2 there were a lot of people that wish they weren't 3 there to see that. And you people that were witness 4 to this share some special bond, I think, because 5 you were the ones who saw this. And I would think 6 it would be a natural thing to want to talk to the 7 other people because you have this, you know, 8 affinity with them. I saw it too, you have an 9 ability to kind of relate to each other. You don't 10 talk to people about this? You are shaking your 11 head no? 12 A No, I don't. 13 How about did see it? 14 A He was on his balcony. 15 And did you ever talk to since 16 then about what he saw? 17 A No, ma'am. 18 All right. Do you watch any of the news 19 accounts about thiseven look at it no more. 21 Okay. 22 A I saw enough. 23 After it first happened, did you watch 24 some of the news? 25 A No. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 149 1 Okay. 2 A Only thing I saw on the news is when they 3 brought up the Video saying he's at the store. 4 That's the only thing I saw. After that, I never 5 paid attention to it. 6 Have you joined in any of the activities 7 about, you know, whether it be to demonstrate or to 8 help raise money? 9 A (Shakes headask you this, you testified today, 13 you didn't actually come forward, you actually were 14 there, the police came, the FBI came and went to the 15 apartment, correct? 16 A Yes. 17 So you didn't come forward, but when they 18 were there, you told them what you saw? 19 A That's right. 20 You said it was somebody that encouraged 21 you to tell what happened? 22 A I mean, at first I wasn't going to say 23 anything, but it was a burden on me. 24 Uh?huh. I'm glad you did. But let me ask 25 you this. I know that you were interviewed today Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 150 and you were interviewed by a woman named 2 do you remember? 3 A Uh?huh. 4 There was a man named there, 5 do you remember him? 6 A Yes. 7 And when they talked to you today 8 A I didn't talk to no man today. 9 Okay. 10 A It was three women. 11 Two female FBI agents? 12 A Yeahwas three, it was a prosecutor and I 15 want to say maybe two. 16 Okay. When you talked to them today, did 17 you tell them that one of the reasons why you're 18 coming forward and telling what you saw is because 19 you empathized with Michael Brown's mother? 20 A (Shakes head.) 21 You are shaking your head yes? 22 A Yes, ma'am. 23 So what does that mean? 24 A Because she's hurting, she lost a child. 25 Yes. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 151 1 A I lost a brother, so. 2 So you know what it is like to lose 3 somebody. Did you lose your brother to Violence? 4 A Two. 5 You are shaking your head yes? 6 A Yes, I did. 7 And that's a painful thing to have to live 8 through, I understand. 9 That's one of the reasons why you 10 wanted to help Michael Brown's family. And you are 11 shaking your head yes? 12 A (Shakes head.) 13 You need a minute? You want some water? 14 A (Shakes head) No. 15 Ma'am, I'm not saying that that's a bad 16 thing, okay. I think that that is totally 17 understandable because again, you share something 18 with them in a sense that you have a similar 19 experience. And you know what it feels like, it 20 would be normal to want to help bring them comfort 21 or closure, okay? 22 A Yes, ma'am. 23 Do you know Michael Brown's mother? 24 A No, ma'am. 25 Have you ever spoken to her? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 152 1 A No, ma'am. 2 Have you ever spoken with anyone from his 3 family? 4 A No, ma'am. 5 How about attorneys that represent his 6 family? 7 A No, ma'am. 8 Other than the FBI agents that have 9 interviewed you now twice and coming in here and 10 talking to the grand jurors. 11 A This is it. 12 And finally, I want to clarify when you 13 said that you saw Michael Brown, the final shots, 14 okay. And Sheila asked you about did you see the 15 officer stand over him and shoot him. I'm not 16 really sure because in a way you said, it seems like 17 it happened that way, or something to that effect? 18 A It might as well. 19 It might as well. But you were there to 20 see it, right? 21 A I mean, he was like at the back of the 22 SUV. Mike Brown was going toward him and he was 23 just shooting at him like as he was walking toward 24 them, he's shooting and he's falling down face first 25 with his hands up. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 153 1 So when he was on the pavement, were his 2 hands still in that position? 3 A Yes, ma'am. 4 Okay. And you saw his body on the 5 pavement? 6 A Yes, ma'am. 7 Did you stay at the scene for any amount 8 of time afterwards? 9 A I had stayed there until the whole thing 10 was over because I couldn't go nowhere. 11 Because your car was 12 A My car was trapped in. 13 Okay. Did you stay down on Canfield 14 during that when the crowd started gathering? 15 A I moved further back away from it. 16 So you moved away from the body? 17 A (Shakes head.) 18 You are shaking your head yes? 19 A Yes, ma'am. 20 What I'm trying to clarify is, I want to 21 make sure we're getting what you saw and not what 22 you think happened. 23 So even though you say it might as 24 well have happened that way, but you didn't see the 25 officer stand Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 154 1 A No, he didn't stand over him. He was 2 shooting as he was walking towards him. And as he 3 was walking towards the guy, he fell down and the 4 last shot. He didn't stand over him like as if he 5 walked over to him and stood over him, no, he 6 didn't. 7 Okay. You could see the officer as he was 8 firing those last shots? 9 A He was standing right there in the middle 10 of the street. 11 So you could see. You said that somebody 12 walked over and checked the pulse of Michael Brown? 13 A The officer, yes, he did. 14 If you see this officer, was it the 15 officer that you saw shooting that walked over? 16 A No, 1 don't know. It could have been a 17 different policeman. 18 Okay. Was it, was the scene taped off 19 when the officer checked his pulse? 20 A Yes, ma'am. 21 Okay. And I really appreciate your coming 22 in. 23 A No problem. 24 I'm very sorry I upset you. 25 You didn't upset me. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 155 1 MS. ALIZADEH: I don't want to bring up 2 your bad memories, but I appreciate you sharing them 3 with us, okay. Thank you. 4 MS. WHIRLEY: I just have one thing for 5 clarification. When you talked about you were asked 6 that you wanted to help Michael Brown's family, I 7 wasn't watching. I think you shook your head yes. 8 How do you want to help them, I'm not clear on that? 9 A As far as bringing, bringing the truth out 10 of what really happened. I mean, I didn't feel like 11 he did anything wrong. He didn't make no 12 MS. WHIRLEY: You are telling this grand 13 jury that you absolutely saw what you told us here 14 today? 15 A Yes, ma'am. 16 MS. WHIRLEY: You're not making up 17 anything to help his family? 18 A No, ma'am, not at all. 19 MS. WHIRLEY: Are you making it worse than 20 what it really was? 21 A I'm going off on what I saw and it just, 22 it's just got to be right. Wrong, everything is 23 just wrong. He didn't do nothing wrong. He was 24 walking, where he was coming from he was walking. 25 It is not like he was attempting to do anything to FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 156 1 nobody or harm anyone, he was walking, him and his 2 friend. 3 So, I mean, for the police to assault 4 him or do anything, what was the reason? 5 MS. WHIRLEY: Questions? 6 I 7 sympathize with your loss, sorry. I understood what 8 you just told Miss Sheila, let me understand your 9 feelings, you feel that the killing of Mr. Brown was 10 not justified to you? II A No, ma'am. l2 Regardless, you didn't 13 know what happened beforehand because like you say, 14 you just saw the tussling and after thathim being 17 dead on the ground. 18 A Okay. What I'm saying is, if he did 19 something wrong, and the police had to protect 20 itself or to defend itself, then that would have 2l been the case, but for this young man to be walking 22 down the street, not causing any problems to no one 23 that was outside, what was the point. You could 24 have tased him instead of shoot him. 25 If you felt like he was harming you FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 157 1 in some type of way, you could have tased him. You 2 didn't have to pull your gun first. He didn't go to 3 show that he had any weapon on him at all. 4 So I felt like for him shooting him, 5 it was just too much. You could have tased him. If 6 anybody else run up and have an incident with a 7 police officer, that would be the first thing a 8 police officer will do to defend themself. If you 9 felt like he had a weapon or anything. 10 He didn't show that he had any weapon 11 at all. He was just walking down the street and him 12 and his friend having a casual conversation, that's 13 what I saw out of them, so. 14 For him to just shoot that young man 15 like that I didn't think that was right. 16 Thank you. 17 And 18 again, I also sympathize with you, this is a hard 19 thing, it is a hard thing for the parties involved, 20 for the grand jury, actually for the country. Okay. 21 It is some hard issues that are being brought up by 22 this, that's what we are charged to do. We have to 23 know the truth. 24 A Yes, ma'am. 25 In order to make the FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 158 1 proper decision, okay? 2 A Uh?huh. 3 Sometimes it might be hard 4 on you, it is with love, with love behind it, okay? 5 I have a question here. You said that, I 6 think this is on page 17 of your statement from what 7 is this, August 16th, at the top. When you're 8 saying that the officer backs up and then you know 9 Mike Brown is at the driver's side window, your View 10 is from the passenger side? 11 A Yes, ma'am. l2 I think we've already 13 established the amount you can see. 14 A Uh?huh. l5 You have a SUV with tinted 16 windows, Mike is between, his body is between you 17 and the SUV, then you have a cop in the car as well 18 and then Dorian also to the right side? 19 A Yes, ma'am. 20 Of the vehicle. Okay. 21 You said you heard the first shot, am right about 22 that? 23 A Yes, ma'am. 24 So if we can't see, you 25 know, hands going off or whatever, and I pose a Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 159 1 question, is it a possibility that the first shot 2 may have been an accidental shot and it was not a 3 shot intentionally to injure Mr. Brown? 4 A It could have been, but that doesn't count 5 for the rest of the shots that came after that when 6 he turned around. If that was a warning shot, the 7 rest of the shots, them or five or six shots 8 shouldn't have came from behind the first shot that 9 went off. 10 Uh-huh. 11 A I don't feel like it was a warning, I feel 12 like it was intentionally done because the police 13 could have been intimated. Like I say, I didn't 14 know he was a teenager, I thought he was a grown man 15 when I seen him. 16 So the police probably was 17 intimidated of his height, his weight, I don't know, 18 but I don't feel like it could have been a warning 19 shot. 20 But even if that was a 21 warning shot, that would be an intentional act by 22 the officer, okay? 23 A Okay. 24 So in the realm of 25 everything, there's a possibility just like the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 160 1 first shot might have been an accident; is that 2 correct? 3 A It could have been yes, ma'am. 4 As you mentioned 5 again, standing out there, a nice day on a Saturday, 6 talking with a couple people by the dumpster. A lot 7 of stuff going on as you mentioned out therethe police car driving by that drew 9 your attention to then watch the entire scene, or 10 was it the first gunshot that had a big conversation 11 or smoke that drew your attention, what was it that 12 really made you focus solely on 13 A What made me focused is when they pulled 14 back towards them. 15 Okay. 16 A What could they do. They was walking 17 across the street, they couldn't have been doing too 18 much, they wasn't doing anything. 19 There wasn't any sound 20 associated with it, okay. Okay, thank you. 21 I have a couple 22 questions. 23 A Uh?huh. 24 And I want you to know 25 that these questions are hard for me to ask you, FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 161 1 okay? 2 A That's fine. 3 I just want to verify on 4 page 29 of your statement, you said that, just now, 5 that was what I was going to ask you, . You 6 said the gunshot is what made me look for real? 7 A Yeah. 8 We've established you 9 were looking through a car window that was tinted, 10 past one officer to another officer from the 11 opposite side of the street, and you really weren't l2 paying attention until you actually heard that first 13 gunshot, okay? 14 A Uh?huh. 15 We've already established 16 that could have been an accident on either person's 17 side. The officer or Michael, they could have been 18 tussling. You didn't see his head, so you don't 19 know if he was in the car, right? 20 A No. 21 You couldn't see the top 22 of his head? 23 A No. 24 You have stated that he 25 was not in the car? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 162 all. 2 So, and then we also 3 established when you said the officer stood up over 4 him and emptied, and you didn't finish that, but 5 that's what it felt like to you, right? 6 A Yeah. 7 He did not do that? 8 A No, he did not literally stand over him, 9 no. 10 I just have a question 11 for you about Was she outside with you 12 from the very beginning when the police car stopped? 13 A No. 14 Because you talked about 15 the first thing that you saw. 16 A No, she probably came outside right when I 17 pulled up, so. 18 Okay. So again, when did 19 you pull up? 20 A I can't remember, it was afternoon. 21 I mean, did you pull up, 22 I'm just trying to determine if you and 23 see the whole altercation? 24 A No, she probably did see the whole 25 altercation, I'm not going to say she did or not. I FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepengnconl State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 163 1 know what I saw. 2 And so you were visiting 3 a friend, you were going to stop by? 4 A Yeah, I just want to stop by and visit a 5 friend. 6 And you realized he was 7 home? 8 A Right. 9 Did you get of your car 10 and go to his door and knock? 11 A Yes, I did. 12 After you got done, did 13 you see on his balcony? 14 A He was on his balcony and I was walking 15 like back towards my car, where the car was. And I 16 asked him for a cigarette and he threw it down and 17 that's when I saw 18 Outside? 19 A Yes, ma'am. 20 And then today before you 21 said you heard him as he's walking away, Michael 22 Brown walking toward the police officer with his 23 hands up, you heard him say, I give up? 24 A I give up. 25 Then today you said, um, FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 164 1 let me find my notes. That you heard him say I give 2 up after the first shot? 3 A Yeah, no, no, when he walk, when he come 4 back, when he was running towards, he didn't say 5 when he turned around, when he noticed, I guess, 6 when he was shot, when he turned back around to walk 7 back towards the police, he was giving up. He was 8 surrendering hisself. 9 I have a question for you 10 about that. I'm not saying he wasn't truly giving 11 up. If you were in the same situation and you were 12 giving up, would you continue to walk toward the 13 police officer or would you stop and get down? 14 A I probably would have stopped and got 15 down. 16 So if you're telling me 17 that you would have stopped and got down, and the 18 reasonable thing would be to stop and get down. And 19 a 285 pound man, even though he may have his 20 hands like this coming towards you, do you think 21 it's possible the police officer could have 22 misunderstood his act of surrender? (indicating) 23 A He probably could have misunderstood, but 24 that still didn't give him no reason cause he still 25 didn't ever move his hands from out of the air. I FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 165 1 could see if he walked, and then dropped his hands 2 and started back towards the police. And then I 3 could see some sort of, I need to defend myself. I 4 don't know what is going to happen, but when he was 5 going back towards the police, he had his hands up. 6 But he always was walking 7 toward the police? 8 A He was walking toward the police. 9 Thank you. 10 MS. WHIRLEY: Anything else? 11 I have a few because I'm 12 confused with your answer there. I thought earlier 13 today that you had said when you got the cigarette, 14 was already out by the dumpster and you 15 stood next to her for like 30 minutes smoking and 16 you saw Michael and Dorian walking west Canfield. 17 That it was 30 minutes roughly that they came back. 18 Was there something different? 19 A When I was standing out there, I mean, 20 when they walk past, I was pulling up on the lot so. 21 Okay. 22 A That's when I pulled up on the lot, they 23 was walking towards that, walking towards West 24 Florissant. I get out the car, knock on the door, 25 walk back down. on his place, FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorspen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 166 1 she's down by the dumpster. 2 She's already down by the 3 dumpster when you got the Cigarette? 4 A Yeah. 5 Before the first shot is 6 fired she's down? 7 A She was already outside when the first 8 shot went off. 9 I just wanted to clarify 10 that. 11 MS. ALIZADEH: Any other questions? 12 MS. WHIRLEY: All right. That will 13 conclude her testimony. 14 End of the testimony of .) 15 WITNESS 46, 16 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to 17 testify the truth, the whole truth, and 18 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, 19 deposes and says in reply to oral 2O interrogatories, propounded as follows, to?wit: 21 EXAMINATION 22 BY MS. ALIZADEH: 23 Now, I'm going to tell you that I had 24 already explained to you we are making an audio 25 recording of what is going on in here and the court Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 167 1 reporter is going to transcribe what is being said, 2 but at this time I've had the court reporter pause 3 the recording so that I can have you introduce 4 yourself to the grand jurors. 5 I'm going to ask you where you live, 6 but not an address. You can tell me generally, you 7 can say I live in north county, I live in Jeff 8 County, I live in Illinois, something like that, 9 okay? 10 A (Nods head.) 11 And then after we're done with that, I 12 will have the court reporter start the audio or 13 recording again and after that I will refer to you 14 as Witness Number 46. 15 Is that okay with you? 16 A (Nods head.) 17 You have to answer out loud. 18 Yes. I use that on Power Ball number, 19 okay. 20 Oh, the lucky number for you. Isn't faith 21 weird. So go ahead and introduce yourself to the 22 grand jurors, what's your name? 23 A My name is 24 And how old are you, ma'amyears old. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 168 1 Okay. And whereabouts do you live in St. 2 Louis? 3 A I live in North County area. 4 Okay. Do you live in the Canfield Green 5 Apartment Complex? 6 A No. 7 Have you ever? 8 A No. 9 Okay. So at this time now I'm going to go 10 ahead and have him start the audio recording. And 11 then I will again, I will not refer to 12 you by your name after that, I will refer to you as 13 Witness Number 46, okay. And I will probably just 14 call you ma'am while I'm asking you questions, okay? 15 Now, we paused the recording while 16 you introduced yourself to the grand jurors and 17 herein after I'm going to refer to you as Witness 18 Number 46. And you understand that that's you 19 today, Witness Number 46; is that right? 20 A (Nods head.) 21 You have to answer out loud. 22 A Yes. 23 I will remind you if you forget, but as I 24 explained to you, not only are we recording what's 25 being said in here, but the court reporter is also FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepengnconl State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 169 1 taking down what's being said and he can't take it 2 down if you shake your head yes can catch you doing that, I will probably say is 4 that a yes or is that a no, okay? 5 A Yes. 6 So try to remember to answer out loud. 7 And then also you know the people at 8 the very end of this table have to be able to hear 9 you, okayWhen you answer questions, if your voice 12 is too low, they're not going to hear your answers 13 and I think it is very important that they hear what 14 you have to say, okay? 15 A (Nods head.) 16 And you are shaking your head yes? 17 A Yes. 18 And so when I ask you questions, if I 19 remind you to keep your voice up, I'm not trying to 20 be rude, it is just that I want to make sure that 21 they can hear you have to say, is that all right? 22 A Yes. 23 And they will raise their hands if they 24 don't hear what you are saying, okay? 25 A Yes. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 170 Okay. So now, ma'am, um, prior to me 2 beginning the recording, you told us the whereabouts 3 you live, but we established that you do not live in 4 the Canfield Green Apartments; is that right? 5 A Yes. 6 And have you ever lived in the Canfield 7 Green Apartments? 8 A Never lived in Canfield Apartments. 9 Okay. Now, do you remember August 9th of 10 this year? ll A Yes. 12 And do you remember that that was a 13 Saturday? 14 A Yes. 15 Were you working that day or were you off 16 that day? 17 A I was at work, just getting off of work, 18 going over to my house. 19 All right. And where was your 20 house? 2l A She stay in Canfield Apartments, like the 22 part of the Canfield Apartments. 23 Okay. Have you been over to her house 24 before? 25 A Yes, lots of times. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 171 1 How about anybody else in Canfield 2 Apartments, are you friends with anyone else that 3 lives there? 4 A No, I don't know nobody over there. 5 Okay. How about when you go, is it your 6 you said? 7 A My 8 Your 9 A I call her . We call her 10 11 Okay. I'm going to call her your 12 So have you ever been over visiting 13 her when she's had some of the other neighbors over 14 that might live in Canfieldthe best of your knowledge, you 17 don't know anybody else that lives in the Canfield 18 Apartment Complex? 19 A No, ma'am. 20 Now, on this day, how is it that you were 21 driving, were you driving to Canfield? 22 A I was driving over to Canfield to take her 23 to the grocery store. 24 To take who to the grocery store? 25 A My to the grocery store. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 172 1 Okay. Were you going into the complex 2 when something happened or were you leaving the 3 complex? 4 A I was going into the complex. 5 Were you in your car by yourself? 6 A Yes. 7 And what kind of vehicle were you driving 8 that day? 9 A A 10 Okay. What color was it? 11 A color. 12 And so, I'm sorry 13 A My car got stolen after this. 14 Okay, I'm sorry about that. And so when 15 you came into the apartment complex, did you come 16 off of West Florissant? 17 A Yes. 18 Now, I'm going to let you look at Grand 19 Jury Exhibit Number 25, which is a map. We have 20 been using this because it shows an aerial View of 21 the streets and the buildings of the Canfield Green 22 Apartments. 23 A Uh?huh. 24 Looking at that, does some of that look 25 familiar to you? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 173 1 A Uh?huh. 2 And you are saying yes? 3 A Yes. 4 Okay. And don't, you don't have to worry 5 about talking into the microphone because it won't 6 amplify your voice, it is recording and it will pick 7 you up, don't worry, you don't have to worry about 8 talking to into it, okay? 9 A Yes. 10 Here is a laser pointer, have you ever 11 used one of these? It has a little button right 12 here. 13 A Yes. 14 And when you press it, it will point on 15 something, okay? 16 A Yes. 17 So when I ask you questions, I might ask 18 you to use that laser pointer and refer to Grand 19 Jury Exhibit Number 25 to show us what you are 20 talking about, okay? 21 A Yes. 22 All right. So now, ma'am, about what 23 time, if you recall, was it when you came into the 24 Canfield Apartments? 25 A It was like probably about like 2:00, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 174 2:30, 2:40, I was coming into the apartment to take 2 her to the grocery store. I just left my other job. 3 Okay. 4 A I was really released from work, going to 5 take her to the grocery store and pick me up some 6 items. 7 Were you in a hurry or was there anything 8 about your trip that was stressing you out that day? 9 A No, I was relaxed. 10 It was a beautiful day? ll A Beautiful, warm day, not too warm, not too 12 hot, beautiful day. 13 So when you were driving in your car, do 14 you remember did you have your windows open or 15 closed? 16 A I had my driver's side open. 17 Were the other windows closed? 18 A Yes. My passenger side was half, but not 19 fully down. 20 Okay. How about music, did you have music 2l playing in your car? 22 A Yes, gospel music. 23 Do you play your music up loud or do you 24 have it a normal levelnormal level, unless it is a Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 175 1 good gospel song I want to hear, then I turn it up 2 loud. 3 Then you crank it up? 4 A Then I crank up my gospel. 5 Do you remember if you were cranking up 6 your music when you came into the complex that day? 7 A No. 8 You don't remember or? 9 A It was not turned up. 10 Okay. So when you came into the apartment 11 complex off of West Florissant, did you travel down 12 Canfield Road? 13 A Yes. 14 And on the map here, if this map went out 15 this direction, West Florissant would be over here? 16 A Yes. 17 So were you traveling eastbound on 18 Canfield Drive if that's east? 19 A Right, I was coming, can I show you? 20 Sure, you can sit there and use the 21 pointer, use the pointer? 22 A When I come in through Canfield 23 Apartments, the leasing office is right there, the 24 first. 25 MS. WHIRLEY: Use the pointer so we can FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 176 1 see. 2 MS. ALIZADEH: Use that pointer. Where is 3 the leasing office? 4 A The leasing office is right up there in 5 the front. Say this is West Florissant right. 6 (By Ms. Alizadeh) West Florissant you 7 can't see. 8 A That's what I'm saying, right over here. 9 This is front of the apartments and Canfield 10 Apartments, and when I turned in this front of the 11 apartments and she stayed right back up in here. 12 (indicating) 13 Okay. If you were able to get to your 14 destination that day, you would have turned up this 15 street right here and gone? 16 A Right, I could turn up that street right 17 there or I can come right here and come back to the 18 back way. (indicating) 19 Okay. So when you turned into the complex 20 that day, did you see anything unusual? 21 A Well, when I turned up into the apartment 22 complex, the first thing, when I was driving in 23 there, I'm going to be honest y'all, God help me. 24 The police was behind me. So most of us think when 25 the police behind us, oh, my God, I've got a ticket, FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 177 1 when is the police stopping me. 2 So I pulled over to the side right 3 over here before I got into the apartment complex. 4 I said oh, my God, you know, what do he want with 5 me, you know. I'm driving my speed limit, what is 6 wrong. (indicating) 7 Okay. So now the police officer, was it 8 in a marked police car that was behind you? 9 A Yes. 10 Did you know if it was a Ferguson officer? 11 A It was a Ferguson police officer. 12 Was it a car, like a sedan or was it like 13 an SUV or was it something else? 14 A It was a regular police car. 15 A regular police carhave his light bar on, the lights 18 that are on top of the car? 19 A It was not really, it was not the sirens, 20 what do you call the thing? 21 Was there any audible on the cars 22 sometimes, you know, of course there's a siren, but 23 then they also have a thing that kind of squawks or 24 whoop? 25 A No. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 178 1 You didn't hear any of that? 2 A Huh?uh. 3 So if you were coming into the apartment 4 complex, you would have been traveling on the right 5 side of the road; is that right? 6 A Right . 7 And so was he traveling behind you in the 8 same direction you were going? 9 A Right . 10 And so when you pulled over, did you pull 11 over to the right of the roadway? 12 A Uh 13 Or did you pull off of the roadway? 14 A I pulled over to the right before I pulled 15 into that apartment complex. I said oh, my, you 16 know, I thought he was coming, I got a ticket, okay. 17 Everybody gets that feeling when you look 18 up and you see thatpolice, I pulled over to the 20 side and I said oh, my God, I know he got me, you 21 know. I thought he was coming for me. 22 So use the laser pointer and point on the 23 roadway here where you were when you pulled over? 24 A Right over, like right over in here. 25 (indicating) FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 179 1 Okay. And so did the officer pull in 2 behind you? 3 A No, he went around me. 4 Okay. 5 A I mean, he was behind me for what I'm 6 saying, he went around me. 7 Okay. 8 A So I stopped. I said thank you, he wasn't 9 for me. 10 So did you see where his vehicle went 11 then? 12 A His vehicle kept going up this way about, 13 about right there. (indicating) 14 So it stayed on Canfield Drive? 15 A It stayed on Canfield Drive. 16 Okay. And at that point what happened? 17 A And at that time it was two black guys or 18 young men or kids or whatever they was, walking down 19 the complex. 20 Did you recognize either of them? 21 A I don't even know the kids. 22 You hadn't seen them before, right? 23 A I might have seen them in the complex, you 24 know, but I don't know you personally enough to wave 25 at you or nothing. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 180 1 Well, that's my question. Did you 2 recognize them as having been people you had seen in 3 the complex before? 4 A No. 5 So can you describe where they were? Were 6 they in the street, on the sidewalk, in the grass? 7 A Mostly over in Canfield, we don't have too 8 much of a sidewalk, you know what I'm saying? So 9 the street thing is where everybody walks anyway 10 because see, as you can see, Canfield don't have too 11 much of a sidewalk. We walk in the street anyway, 12 you know. 13 Aren't there sidewalks on either side of 14 the street there? 15 A Yeah, but that's not too much of a 16 sidewalk. There is trees and stuff over there. 17 Okay. 18 A So everybody is going to walk in the 19 street. 20 So these kids were in the street and I'm 21 going to call them kids, you call them? 22 A I call them kids. 23 Okay. 24 A Because they're kids under me. 25 And they were in the street? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 181 1 A And they was in the street, and I'm 2 looking, you know, what the police doing. 3 So let me stop you. Were the kids walking 4 in which direction? 5 A They was walking up, coming up this way. 6 So they were walking? 7 A They was not walking towards West 8 Florissant area, they was walking like they was 9 going to somebody's apartment complex. 10 Okay. Use the laser pointer and show me 11 where they were when you first saw them walking? 12 A Okay. When I first saw them walking, they 13 was like over here and they was walking like this 14 away. (indicating) 15 Okay. So they were walking into the 16 complexwas turning into, but I 18 mean straight down, straight. 19 Okay. You were going to turn this way, 20 when I say into the complex, I'm saying that this is 21 the apartment complex? 22 A Right, right. 23 So they were walking on Canfield Drive? 24 A Uh?huh. 25 And down in this direction, east on Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 182 1 Canfield? (indicating) 2 A Uh?huh. 3 Yes? 4 A Yes. 5 Okay. And so when you were pulling in 6 there, you saw their backs, would that be fair to 7 say? 8 A Right. 9 And did you notice anything about them, 10 how could you describe them? 11 A They was black men, they was one had a cup 12 of something in their hand, other one had nothing in 13 their hand and they was just walking. 14 Okay. 15 A Like a soda, you know. 16 There were two? 17 A There was two guys. One looked bigger 18 than the other one. 19 Okay. So let's call the bigger one, the 20 bigger kid or bigger boy or bigger one and the other 21 one we will call the smaller one, okay? 22 A (Nods headsoda or something in his 24 hand? 25 A The little one. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 183 1 Could you see that it was a soda cup or 2 could you see that it was a cup? 3 A It was just a cup. 4 Okay. What about the bigger one, did you 5 notice if he had anything in his hand? 6 A Huh?uh. 7 So are you saying no, he didn't have 8 anything or he didn't? 9 A No, I didn't notice that he had anything 10 in his hand. 11 Okay. And so when you first saw them 12 walking, was the police car still behind youfront of me. 14 Okay. So he had already passed by you 15 when you first saw the boys walking? 16 A Uh?huh. 17 And they're walking in the same direction 18 that the police car is traveling? 19 A Right. Let me tell you this, they was 20 You can use the laser if you want. 21 A Say that my car is right here, right. 22 (indicating) 23 Uh?huh. 24 A And the two young boys or kids, as I call 25 them, walking over here, you know, passed up your Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 184 1 car and you see the police was right here, okay, on 2 the other side, because he passed around me. 3 Did the boys walk past your car? 4 A Yeah. 5 So you were pulled over on the side when 6 the boys walked past your car? 7 A Yeah. 8 All right. So was the police officer then 9 already past you when the boys passed your car? 10 A No, the boys passed my car and the police 11 was like, how can I say, say like you right there 12 where I'm at, okay, you walking forward and I'm the 13 police and I'm about 10, 20, 25 feet from you. 14 Okay. 15 A And you're passing me up, I'm the 16 policeman and I am right diagonally sideways of you. 17 All right. Let me stop you here. When 18 you saw the police officer at first he was behind 19 you? 20 A He was behind me. 21 Had you seen the boys yet? 22 A Before the police officer? 23 Before you saw the police officer? 24 A I seen them in my mirror, but it wasn't 25 nothing. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 185 1 So the boys were in your 2 A Was walking, but they was not. 3 So when you first saw the boys, they were 4 behind you? 5 A Well 6 You said you saw them in your mirror? 7 A In the mirror, but not directly behind me. 8 Okay. 9 A You know what I'm saying on the side of 10 you. 11 Okay. I thought you said that the boys 12 were like down in this area? (indicating) 13 A They was up before me right on the side of 14 you, how can I say this. 15 Here is your car, okay. Here is the 16 young men right here. (indicating) 17 Let's use, let's say this is your car, 18 don't say your car, it is your, it is my car? 19 A This is my car. 20 Right. 21 A You see the young man is right here, they 22 are coming right here walking like this in the 23 middle of the street, okay. Excuse me. 24 (indicating) 25 So is West Florissant over here? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 186 1 (indicating) 2 A West Florissant is behind me. 3 So which direction is your car facing in 4 this scenario, this thing, is it driving this way? 5 A It is driving on Canfield. 6 Is it driving that way? (indicating) 7 A Yeah. 8 So you're facing that way? 9 A Okay. I'm facing this way, I'm driving up 10 Canfield, whatever you call that street from West 11 Florissant, the young men says right here they are 12 walking over here, police that was behind me went 13 around here. (indicating) 14 Okay. So let me stop you here. 15 A On the opposite side. 16 Let me stop you here. I don't want to try 17 to confuse you, but in this scenario, are you 18 driving on the correct side of the street? 19 A Yeah. 20 So that would have your car over on the 21 right side of the street? 22 A Right. 23 So the officer wouldn't have passed you on 24 this side? 25 A What I'm saying, I'm driving right here I Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 187 1 guess in the middle of the street or call it closer 2 to the right side, okay. And the police did this, 3 you pulling over so can get out of the police way. 4 You're scared, you know how Ferguson, I'm scared of 5 the police, y'all, I'm scared of the Ferguson 6 police, I'm telling you. 7 Let's try to get through this where we can 8 describe what happened, okay. And then we'll talk 9 about that, but I want to try to make sure we 10 understand. 11 You said you were driving on the 12 right side of the road as you are coming into 13 Canfield? 14 A Coming, however you say, right side of the 15 middle. 16 In the middle? 17 A Right side of the middle. What I'm saying 18 is right here, the right side, but closer to the 19 middle, you know. 20 But you also said that when you saw the 21 officer, you pulled over to the right? 22 A Right. What I'm saying is right here 23 because I'm pulling in here, I'm closer to the right 24 side, okay, because other people come out of the 25 complex and come down the left side, okay. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 188 1 Sure. 2 A When they come out the apartment complex. 3 So I'm closer over here to the right side, okay. 4 Uh?huh. 5 A And the is behind me, so I 6 pulled right over here Closer to the right side. 7 Okayhis way. He comes around 9 here and goes to the left side to go around. 10 So he if this is your car, he's passing ll you on the left side? 12 A Right. 13 Not the right side? 14 A Right. 15 All right. So the boys now 16 MS. ALIZADEH: Yes. 17 . So are 18 you saying he passed you on the side closer to the 19 sidewalk? 20 A Closer to the sidewalk. 2l (By Ms. Alizadeh) No? 22 A No, no, closer to 23 The middle. 24 Middle line. 25 A Middle line. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 189 1 To the middle line, okay. 2 A Yeah, closer to the complex, whatever you 3 want to call it. 4 (By Ms. Alizadeh) Okay. Now we've got the 5 officer having passed you on your left? 6 A Uh?huh. 7 And then did he continue down Canfield? 8 A He said, the boys is right here. I don't 9 know what he said to the boys. I really wasn't 10 paying attention. I was into my gospel music and he 11 said something to the boys and they kept on walking. 12 And then as you go down here, I seen the boys right 13 here steady walking down Canfield. The police said 14 something to them, I don't know what they said back 15 to them, I cannot say, you know, because I was 16 really not paying attention. I was paying 17 attention, but I was not listening. I was in my 18 own, you know, listening to my gospel music. So I 19 was not open to their conversation. 20 And then I seen the police stop, I 21 don't know if he told them to stop or whatever 22 because young kids stop right up in here, you know, 23 go further down I'm looking, what the hell you 24 doing, excuse my French, what the hell you doing 25 with them kids, what did they do now. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 190 Okay. So let me stop you now. The 2 officer stops his car in the street and you said it 3 looked like he was talking to the boy. 4 A Right. 5 Which side, where were the boys in 6 relation to the officer's car? 7 A Towards the, how can I say. 8 Well, there's the driver's side? 9 A The driver's side, you closer to the 10 driver's side, okay, but you mostly in the middle of ll the driver's side and the other side. 12 So they were on the side of the car? 13 A Not directly on the side, this is your 14 car, right. Here is your driver's side over here. 15 We'll say driver's side right here, okay. And here 16 is the middle side so they directly in the driver's 17 side, driver's window right here. I'm right here. 18 The center of the driver's side. (indicating) 19 So were the boys in front of the car? 20 A Half, yes. So mostly towards the driver's 2l middle, you follow me? 22 Not really. 23 A Anybody follow what I'm saying? 24 So you said the boys were talking to the 25 officer, were they at the driver's window talking to FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 191 1 them? 2 A They was not at his window, he was over, 3 okay. 4 You know what, it is too hard for us to 5 use this because they can't really see what you're 6 doing. 7 I'm going to do my best to help you 8 to explain it, okay? It's just, I think it is too 9 difficult, they are not going to be able to see what 10 you're doing, but if you 11 A You know what I'm doing, don't you? 12 If the officer is driving his car, rightAnd the driver's seat is on the left side 15 of the car? 16 A The driver's seat is always on. 17 The left side of the car; is that right? 18 Yes? 19 A I got to think how I drive my car. 20 In America the driver's seat is on the 21 left side of the car? 22 A Yeah. 23 And so if the officer stops to talk to the 24 boys, did he get out? 25 A No, if it's on the left side, he was FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 192 1 talking to the boys, I don't know what he said to 2 the young men. 3 Uh-huh. 4 A Okay. And he slowed his car down and I'm 5 looking what's going on here. And at that time the 6 police got out of his car and I'm looking, what the 7 hell is he getting ready to do with these kids? 8 I thought, now wait a minute, this is 9 Ferguson police, what's going on because we scared 10 of our police. I'm scared to be here because of the 11 police. 12 Ma'am, let's try to keep on track. I 13 don't want you to get emotional, you are doing fine, 14 okay. I know you are doing fine, so let's try to 15 push forward and we will talk about, I know you 16 don't like the police and you don't want to be here. 17 If we can get through this, it will be better 18 because you will be done, all right. You 19 understand? 20 I'm not trying to be mean, I don't 21 want you to get emotional because that makes it 22 difficult for you to tell the jurors what you know, 23 okay? 24 Okay, so let me 25 A Give me strength, Lord, give me strength, FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 193 1 Jesus. 2 Let me have you keep going with what you 3 saw. You said the officer got out of his car? 4 A Yes, ma'am. 5 And am I correct in assuming he got out of 6 the driver's door? 7 A Yes, ma'am. 8 What did you see happen? 9 A He walked up to the police, I don't know 10 what was said or what. 11 Who walked up to the police? 12 A I mean, the police walked up to the young 13 men. 14 Okay. 15 A I don't know what was said or whatever. 16 Then the police went back, was going to his car. I 17 guess they was arguing or something because the boys 18 was saying something to him and stuff, and I'm 19 looking here go another Ferguson incident. And the 20 police kept talking to the boys and the boys were 21 steadily walking, and the police was talking to them 22 or fussing at them or whatever. 23 I'm looking at this and I'm looking 24 what the heck is going on. So I kind of turn my 25 music down to try to hear the conversation, and FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 194 1 which I really couldn't hear. I had my windows 2 down. I said, Lord, what's happening now. Next 3 thing I know, I turn my head to answer my cell 4 phone, turn my head, I bent down to pick up my cell 5 phone off my seat and that's when I seen the police 6 pull a gun out. 7 So I seen a little, I guess they was 8 fussing, you know, or whatever, but I seen the 9 police pull his gun and I'm saying, what's the hell 10 going on, excuse me. 11 That's all right. 12 A I'm talking to this lady here. So I said, 13 what the hell is going on. And it was a, I don't 14 know, the one little boy, the little small guy ran 15 behind on the side, of the other side of the police 16 car. And the Big Daddy, I call him Big Daddy. 17 You call him what? 18 I call him Big Daddy, I'm just using big 19 names. 20 Big Daddy? 21 I don't know him, but we usually say Big 22 Daddy. 23 Okay. 24 A And Big Daddy and the police officer, this 25 guy, they was arguing. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepengnconl State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 195 1 Now, is the officer, you've already said 2 the officer got out of his vehicle. Is he still 3 outside of his vehicle when they're arguing? 4 A Uh?huh. 5 Yes, okay. So is his car door still open? 6 A Uh?huh. 7 You said he walked back to his vehicle. 8 A When he got back to the vehicle, when he 9 got back to his vehicle, I can't use you. 10 No, no, he's can't, he's got 11 A I was going do grab his arm, I can't use 12 him. But when I walk back to my vehicle, okay. I 13 had one of the boys steady talking to me and I'm 14 talking to them. So then when I turn back to the 15 vehicle, me and you is doing a little tussling. 16 Now, you were just, in describing that, 17 you were pretending to be the police officer? 18 A Right, I'm the police officer and I'm 19 sitting up, what's going on here. And next thing 20 I'm seeing, hear a noise and the little boy had, 21 which is the little guy, was hollering, saying 22 something and the big guy was steady fussing at him, 23 and they are walking back towards the car, police 24 car, not mine. The police car. 25 And next thing I know that the FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 196 1 policeman pulled his gun, like I told you, and start 2 firing. 3 So was the police officer outside of his 4 car when he was firing? 5 A Uh?huh. 6 Yes? 7 A (Nods head.) 8 And what or who was he firing at? 9 A He fired at the Big Daddy. 10 How far away was the Big Daddy when he was 11 firing at him? 12 A By this time Big Daddy, he's aware from 13 the car, he's laughing at me. Big Daddy was away 14 from the car, and he was walking, the other guy, the 15 little small guy, he was steady walking too. He 16 walked on the opposite side. 17 So Big Daddy was walking in front, I 18 don't know what he said. The only thing I heard he 19 said, I ain't got nothing. And I'm looking, what 20 the heck is going on here. 21 So you heard Big Daddy say to the officer, 22 I ain't got nothing? 23 A Right. 24 Okay. Have you ever told anybody that you 25 heard him say that before? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 197 1 A The people, the FBI the people I talked 2 to. 3 You told the people that you talked to 4 before and they were recording your statement, 5 right? 6 A I guess they did. 7 Okay. That's fine. 8 A So by this time I'm sitting up calling 9 people, something happen y'all, Ferguson police 10 messing with our young men again. 11 So everybody was telling me what's 12 wrong. I said I don't know, you know how these 13 police over here. Something is going to happen, 14 y'all. And everybody was saying, what's happening? 15 I'm saying, I don't know. 16 Okay. Let me stop you. Who are you 17 talking to? 18 A I told you I picked up my cell phone and I 19 started dialing numbers, that's what I just said. 20 And I called and I said, something's happening with 21 these police over hear, they are messing with our 22 young men again. And everybody was telling me 23 what's wrong. I said, I don't know, but by this 24 time the police pulled his gun out. 25 Help me, God, please. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 198 1 Did you see the officer fire his gun? 2 A (Nods head.) 3 All right. You are shaking your head yes? 4 A Yes, ma'am. 5 All right. And did you see whether or not 6 that bullet hit anybody? 7 Do you think that the bullet hit 8 anybody after that first shot? 9 A The first shot, I don't think it hit 10 anybody. 11 Okay. 12 A But I seen the little boy when he turned 13 back around he said, I didn't do nothing, I didn't 14 do nothing. He's got his hands up like this and the 15 other guy ran the other way, the small guy, and the 16 police just fired again. There about, I'm trying to 17 think about 20 or 30 feet, 25 feet from me to you. 18 There was 25 to 30 feet between the big 19 guy and the police officer when he fired again? 20 A Uh?huh. 21 Okay. Was the officer still out of his 22 car? 23 A Uh?huh. 24 And you're saying yes, right? 25 Yes, ma'am. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 199 1 Okay. Do you remember when you talked to 2 the detective and that was, we talked about that 3 before you came in, do you remember talking to 4 Detective at the NAACP, and you are 5 shaking your head yes? 6 A Yes, ma'am. 7 Do you remember telling him during your 8 conversation that I heard, I've seen them when they 9 was talking to the police and I thought it was just 10 a friendly talk. 11 A I did, I didn't know. 12 Hang on, okay. Do you remember saying, so 13 the next thing I see the police reach out his car 14 and I seen one boy run behind the police car on the 15 side of the police car. 16 Do you remember telling them that? 17 So when you told them that before you said the 18 officer was inside the car and you put his gun, 19 reached out the car with his gun for the first shot? 20 A Right, but it was notcar. 22 So your memory is that he was actually 23 outside of the car when he did the first shot? You 24 are shaking your head yes? 25 A Yes, ma'am. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 200 Okay. And you also didn't mention at any 2 time when you were talking to Detective about 3 the boy saying anything, do you remember when you 4 said, did you remember telling him about the boy 5 saying anything when they were at the car? 6 A They was talking, like I told y'all, they 7 was talking to the police, I thought, like I'm 8 telling you just like I talk to you. 9 Okay. 10 A We think friendly conversation, or ll whatever, like I told you y'all just know. I don't l2 know what they're talking about. 13 Okay. But I just want to clarify, today 14 you said you heard the big guy say, I don't 15 A That's after he got up further, the big 16 guy said, I ain't got nothing. 17 We jumped ahead then. We're still at the 18 car and you heard one shot, the officer is outside 19 of the car, he fires one shot, but you don't think 20 it hits Michael Brown or the big boy at that time? 21 A Right. 22 What does the big boy do after that first 23 shot goes off? 24 A He started walking up, further back 25 towards the apartment complex. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 201 Okay. Was he walking in street or did he 2 walk off of the street? 3 A In the street. 4 Does he stay on Canfield Drive? 5 A Yes. 6 Was he walking east then in that 7 direction? 8 A Yes, ma'am. 9 Okay. How was he walking, was he running, 10 was he jogging, was he sprinting fastWalking fast. 14 Walking fast. Okay. So he's walking away 15 from the police officer? 1 6 A Right . 17 Now, the officer's out of his car you've 18 already said? 1 9 A Right . 20 So what does the officer walking away from him? 22 A He was saying something to the young men, 23 I wish to, God knows I wish I would have heard 24 everything, but I was into my music. 25 Now, you said you turned your music down? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 202 A I turned my music down, but not completely 2 off down. 3 Okay. 4 A Enough so I can still hear the bass, you 5 know what I'm saying? Down low music. 6 So do you think the officer said something 7 then after the big guy started to walk quickly away? 8 A Yes. 9 Could you hear him say something? 10 A I heard him, you know how you can look and II see conversation being done, but you cannot make out 12 what is done, you know what I'm saying? 13 Yes, that's what I'm trying to get at. 14 A Right. 15 So you couldn't make out the wordsCould you hear something, like 18 (indicating) could you hear something and just 19 couldn't make it out? 20 A I heard when the boy screamed out, I ain't 2l got nothing. 22 Okay. 23 A He didn't say it as a low tone of voice. 24 Okay. That's jumping ahead. I'm talking 25 about Michael Brown is moving away from the officer. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 203 The officer is outside of his car and I said what 2 does the officer do, and you said the officer, you 3 heard him say something, but you couldn't make it 4 out? 5 A Right. 6 Is that something you actually heard or is 7 it something you assumed because of the way he was 8 acting? 9 A It was something I heard, you know, no 10 way, the police move, you know what I'm saying. ll When you are talking to a person. 12 Okay. So you heard the officer say 13 something, but you didn't, you couldn't tell what he 14 said? 15 A I could not tell what it was. 16 Okay. And what did Michael, I'm sorry, I I7 keep wanting to call him Michael Brown, you know 18 that is his name, correctYou know who we're talking about? 2l A I call him Big Guy. I don't know these. 22 Okay. So when the officer says something, 23 what does the Big Guy do, does he continue to walk 24 away from the officer or does he stop at that point? 25 A They was communicating at first. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 204 1 Who was? 2 A Michael Brown and the little small guy, 3 what's his name. 4 So let's just call him little small guy, 5 you don't know his name, right? 6 A No. 7 So we'll just keep calling him the little 8 small guy? 9 A The little small guy and Michael Brown is 10 Big Daddy. 11 So they were communicating? 12 A With the police. 13 Have we gotten back to the beginning of 14 this then because we've got, you already said the 15 little guy ran? 16 A When the boy, we are at the middle right 17 now when the little boy was talking, he was talking 18 to Big Daddy, okay, Michael Brown, okay. And the 19 little small guy was there too. 1 don't know where 20 little Brown, little Brown, little small guy was 21 saying to the police officer. Little Brown started 22 walking slowly, Big Daddy started walking faster. 23 Is this before any shots or after shots? 24 A Before. 25 Okay. And that's kind of a problem Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 205 because it is difficult to follow what you are 2 talking about if we keep skipping around. I want to 3 take this a step at a time so we can be sure. 4 A I want to get it over with, I'm scared, 5 I'm scared now. 6 Let's push forward. So when Michael Brown 7 was moving away from the officer, when Big Daddy was 8 moving away from the officer and you said he was 9 walking quickly. Was his back toward the officer 10 then? ll A At the time his back was towards the 12 officer. 13 Okay. What happened then? 14 A With his back, he kept walking forward, 15 the other guy was walking, how can I say, to the 16 side of the police car. They wasn't together. 17 Okay. 18 A They was together, but one walking on the 19 other side, you know what I'm saying? One walking 20 on one side and the other one was walking. 2l Okay. What happened then? 22 A And that's when the policeman start 23 fussing, I mean not fussing, communicating with 24 them. And they was communicating back and the Big 25 Guy, I guess, walked away and the police start Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 206 1 firing. 2 Okay. Let me ask you. You said that Big 3 Guy, I don't know what word you used, what's the 4 word you used? Sounded to me like you said 5 murder?cate, what did you say? 6 A I said Big Daddy. 7 Big Daddy, communicate? 8 A Communicate. 9 All right, sorry. I just want to make 10 sure I'm clear. Who is communicating with who? 11 A Communication was with Big Daddy and the 12 police. 13 Okay. 14 A And the other boy was saying something, 15 the little small guy was saying something. 16 Okay. 17 A But the police was looking at like I'm 18 looking at you. 19 Now, is this before or after Michael Brown 20 has already started to walk away. 21 A While Michael was walking. 22 So what happens then? 23 A The other guy was walking, Michael's 24 walking here, your friend walking on the other side, 25 but he's not directly right next to you, you know FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 207 1 what I'm saying? You're not directly right next to 2 me, you are a little farther away from me. 3 Okay. And what happened then? 4 A Help me, Jesus, help me, Lord. Give me 5 strength. 6 How far did Michael Brown walk, can you 7 show with the pointer on the map, laser pointer how 8 far you saw him walk? 9 A I'm sorry, y'all, please forgive me. 10 I just want help you get through this 11 because I know it is tough for you, and if we can 12 get through it, you'll be done, okay. So here is 13 the pointer, show me how far Michael Brown walked? 14 A Okay. They was like up about, okay, say 15 he was right here, I'm over here on the side, they 16 are over there. They walk around here to the middle 17 of the complex thing, or whatever y'all call it, 18 street thing. About right up in here. About how 19 can I say. (indicating) 20 Okay. You pointed that's fine, you said 21 right up in here. So this is about at the 22 intersection of Canfield Drive and then? 23 A That's what about 20, 30. 24 The eastern leg of this horseshoe like? 2 5 A Ri . FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 208 1 All right. So what happened then when he 2 got to this point? 3 A The police start shooting. 4 Was Michael Brown still, was his back 5 still toward the officer at that pointYes. 8 A Okay. Say the police car here and I'm 9 walking, steadily walking fast and then I'm turning 10 around and then I ain't got nothing, and he kept ll walking. You see what I'm saying? 12 Okay. 13 A Say this is Michael. You are right here, 14 this is police car, right. And I was walking fast 15 and you saying something to me and I turned, I ain't 16 got nothing, I ain't got nothing like that, he kept l7 walking and the other guy is you, you walking over 18 there, you my friend, hi friend. But you my friend 19 and he's walking on the other side of me. 20 Okay. 2l A He kept turning around like I don't know 22 what the police said. He said I ain't got nothing, 23 what do you want. I heard that he said it in a very 24 large tone of a voice. And I just turned around and 25 start calling, you know I was scared because I FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 209 1 didn't know what's going to happen. 2 Okay. So after the boy had turned around 3 and said he put his hands up and said I ain't got 4 nothing, and you demonstrated kind of in a manner 5 like to show your hands like you didn't have 6 anything in your hands? 7 A Right. 8 And then he kept walking and then what 9 happened? 10 A And the police start firing. 11 Okay. Was the boy still walking away from 12 the police officer when he starts firing? 13 A Michael stopped right there, and I don't 14 know if the man said halt, because you was walking 15 like this and when you turn around, I ain't got 16 nothing man, I ain't got nothing like this. Next 17 thing I know, I just start hearing shots going. 18 Okay. So the shots happen after Michael 19 Brown turns around? 20 A The first shot was before when, like I 21 said, before he started. 22 Okay. How many shots do you think you 23 heard? 24 A I'm scared of bullets. 25 I think we're all scared of bullets. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unywagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 2lO A Okay. You can shoot, I'm going to run up 2 and hide on the floor, okay. 3 Did you hide, you told the police that you 4 put your head down? 5 A I put my head down when I heard the second 6 shot, not all the way down. I did my head like this 7 on my driver's, on the steering wheel. Because I'm 8 used to, when I'm young, my parents used to say you 9 hear a bullet, hit the floor. 10 So there was a time that you had put your ll head down? 12 A Right on the thing. 13 So did you see Michael Brown fall on the 14 ground? 15 A I seen when after, yes. 16 Okay. 17 A I seen, I mean. The police just stand 18 over him and kept shooting like this. (witness 19 starts crying) Jesus, help me. 20 Do you need to take a break? You want to 2l take a break for a couple minutes? 22 A Lord help that child, help me Jesus. 23 Do you want to take a break for a couple 24 minutes? 25 A Yes. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 211 1 I don't know what time it is. 2 MS. ALIZADEH: We are going to take about 3 a five minute break. It is 3:49. 4 (Recess) 5 MS. ALIZADEH: We're back on the record 6 and we took a few minutes for a break. While 7 Witness Number 46 needed to kind of have a break to 8 collect herself. And she has asked if me could she 9 come in here and try to finish explaining what she 10 saw. So rather than me ask you questions, I felt 11 like maybe I was upsetting you. I'm going to let 12 you just finish telling what you saw. And if they 13 have questions, they can ask you, okay. This is 14 their investigation and they will ask you questions 15 if they need you to explain, okay. 16 A Yes. 17 MS. ALIZADEH: So Witness Number 46, why 18 don't you start from where you said the officer was, 19 Michael Brown is moving away from the officer and 20 the officer starts shooting and then you can pick 21 up, that's kind of where we were and you can just 22 finish or keep going from there, okay. 23 A Okay. Michael Brown, which I call Big 24 Daddy, the police fired and the young man turned and 25 said I don't have anything. I don't know what their FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 212 communicating mean I don't have anything, but he 2 said it loud, not in a low tone voice, in a holler 3 voice is I don't have anything. 4 And the other young man, which is 5 small ball, he was on the other side, but he was 6 diagonally like a distance from like me and you. 7 And the young man kept walking fast 8 and the police had shot one shot, I don't know where 9 it hit or what, because at that time I put my head 10 down behind, you know, the wheel. I raised back up II and the police just kept firing and the second shot, 12 which I seen that hit the boy cause he jumped. I 13 don't know where it hit him at, but it hit the boy. 14 And the police just kept firing and saying something 15 to the boy, and kept firing. The boy kept saying, I 16 got, my hands is up, I don't have anything, what do 17 you want. 18 And next thing I know, I don't know 19 where it hit, but when the boy fell, there was blood 20 shot everywhere. 2l And the police just stand over him 22 and shot him like he playing darts at a board. At 23 that time the police, the other boy was gone, not 24 gone, but standing and off to the side. Mostly 25 toward the passenger side of the street. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 213 1 And when the policeman kept shooting 2 at him like he's a dartboard, I got out of my car, 3 and I went to the police I said, can I help the 4 young man, can I please help him, he's bleeding. 5 The police told me. 6 MS. ALIZADEH: You can say the bad word. 7 A The police told me, get the fuck away from 8 over here. When he told me that, I turned around 9 and I said, you ain't said nothing but a word. So I 10 jump back in the car, this time I started panicking. 11 So I pulled my car into the complex, 12 I call my and I told her I just seen a 13 boy got shot. For what, I said I don't know, I 14 don't know, he's shot. He's in the street. She 15 said what street, I said right on the side of your 16 house, and they said they heard gunshot, so 17 everybody started coming outside. 18 By this time a young man, I don't 19 know who he is, gave me a cigarette. I haven't 2O smoked a cigarette since I was young. I smoke now. 21 I took the cigarette, I smoked it and then I asked 22 for more cigarettes, the guy gave me three 23 cigarettes. I smoked it, I walked back up there, 24 after the police told me to get away. 25 By this time it was like a crowd of FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 214 people, and this is before they put that orange tape 2 around or yellow tape around, and I asked, I said 3 what is going on here. Everybody was hollering and 4 stuff, everybody was crying this, somebody said call 5 the police, and one lady said that is the police. 6 And the only thing I just remember 7 from that that I was screaming and hollering, people 8 was hugging me, I don't even know nobody out there 9 besides my 10 And I told them, like I told Kathi II and the other lady, if I could have saved him, 12 because I thought I could save him, I 13 wanted to save him, not because he was bleeding, 14 because any time, say for instance if you look at, 15 what if that's your child laying on that ground. 16 What if that's your daughter laying up there that 17 the police shot. What would you do. Would you sit 18 there and see somebody else's child that I don't 19 even know lay on the ground? 20 Flashbacks went in my mind. That's 2l my boy. I don't know these kids, but just think 22 y'all, what if that's your boy. Picture your boy 23 laying on that ground. Picture that blood running 24 out of your boy's face. Picture that boy's arms 25 wide open and saying whatever, you know. His hands Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 215 1 up in the air. 2 Take your time right now and close 3 your eyes, please close your eyes, close your eyes 4 for a minute, please. And just think that's your 5 child, your nephew, your daughter, laying on that 6 ground. What would you do, would you sit there and 7 let them bleed? 8 Would you ask them, can you help 9 them? 10 MS. ALIZADEH: Now, ma'am, when I told 11 you, you had said that to me outside and I told you 12 that we know that that boy when he was shot in the 13 head, he was killed instantly. There is nothing you 14 could have done to save him. 15 A I feel that maybe I could have stopped the 16 bleeding, sometimes now after that happened, I feel 17 it was my fault. Maybe I should have been speeding 18 so the police can stop me. 19 MS. WHIRLEY: Let us see, Number 46, if 20 there are any questions though, okay? 21 A Ferguson police, I'm scared y'all. I go 22 to my now, I'm scared. A week 23 after that, my got stolen. I don't know if it 24 with this stuff, I don't know what it was. But I 25 know y'all if whatever you do, please help our Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 216 1 police department. I'm scared of my own police, you 2 know, police is supposed to be your best friend. 3 MS. WHIRLEY: We're just going to see if 4 there are any questions, Number 46. Are there any 5 questions from any of the jurors? No, okay. We 6 really appreciate you coming in. 7 (End of the testimony of Witness Number 8 46 9 I 10 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to 11 testify the truth, the whole truth, and 12 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, 13 deposes and says in reply to oral 14 interrogatories, propounded as follows, to?wit: 15 EXAMINATION 16 BY MS. ALIZADEH: 17 This is Kathi Alizadeh and I am with the 18 prosecutor's office as well as Sheila Whirley is 19 present, all 12 grand jurors are present and so we 20 are having our final witness for today testify. 21 Can you state your name, please? 22 A My name is 23 And I'm going to stand back here, 24 because you are kind of soft spoken. 25 The microphone that's in front of you does not Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 217 1 amplify your voice. So it is not going to help you 2 to speak into it, so speak loud enough so that 3 people all the way back here would be able to hear 4 you, okay? 5 A Yes, ma'am. 6 how old are you? 7 A I am years old. 8 And where do you live, you don't have to 9 give me your address, do you live in Missouri? 10 A No, ma'am, I stay in 11 Okay. And back in August of this year, 12 where were you living? 13 A On Canfield Drive. 14 Okay. Would that be in the Canfield Green 15 Apartment Complex? 16 A Yes, ma'am. 17 And who did you live there with? 18 A 19 So did you have an apartment with 20 A Yes, ma'am. 21 And I'm going to direct your attention to 22 a map that's Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25. And 23 right here is a laser pointer. So if you press that 24 button, the dot comes out and can you use that and 25 show the grand jurors? Does this look familiar to FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 218 1 you, the street of Canfield Drive that cuts through? 2 A Yes, ma'am. 3 And this is over in this direction if you 4 went and drove this way is West Florissant? 5 A Okay. 6 Can you show where your 7 was? 8 A (Indicate.) 9 So you pointed right here, is his 10 apartment face Canfield? 11 A Yes, ma'am. 12 All right. And so were you home on, or at 13 your dad's, were you living there or were you just 14 visiting? 15 A I was living there. 16 Okay. Did you know many people in the 17 Canfield Apartment Complex? 18 A No, ma'am. 19 How long had you been living with your 20 at that point? 21 A About a month. 22 Okay. Were you working or going to 23 school? 24 A No, ma'am. 25 Do you, now, you know that we're here Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 219 1 regarding the investigation of the shooting of 2 Michael Brown? 3 A Yes, ma'am. 4 Did you know who Michael Brown was before 5 this day? 6 A Something like that. 7 Okay. How is it that you knew Michael 8 Brown? 9 A He's a friend of a friend. 10 And who is the mutual friend that you 11 have? 12 A His name is 13 9 14 A Yes, ma'am. 15 So you met Michael Brown through your 16 friend, 17 A Yes, ma'am. 18 And so how well do you think you would say 19 you knew Mr. Brown? 20 A I didn't know him very well. 21 So would it be accurate to say you guys 22 were just acquaintances? 23 A Yes, ma'am. 24 Did you know his last name? 25 A Uh, no, ma'am, I didn't. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 220 1 All right. What did you call him, what 2 was his nickname or did you call him Mike? 3 A I mean, we only saw each other one time. 4 So I didn't really say his name at all. 5 Okay. Had you seen him in the complex? 6 A No, ma'am. 7 So you just met him the one time and 8 that's the only time you'd seen him? 9 A Yes, ma'am. 10 Did you tell officer's previously that you ll called him, you believed him or knew him to be 12 Mike?Mike? 13 A Yes, that's what everybody called him. 14 Mike?Mike? 15 A Yes, ma'amAugust of this year, 17 which was a Saturday, were you at your 18 apartment that day? 19 A Yes, ma'am. 20 And you remember was anything special 2l about that morning? 22 A No, ma'am. 23 Did you have any special plan for that 24 day? 25 A No, ma'am. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unywagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 221 I And did something during the day direct 2 your attention to the outside? 3 A No, ma'am, I just go outside every day. 4 So you were hanging outside or did you go 5 outside to go see somebody? 6 A I was just hanging outside. 7 Okay. So your unit being right 8 here, I know we know there's three floors to each 9 building? 10 A Yes, ma'am. 11 What floor was he on? 12 A The second. 13 So when you say you were outside, were you 14 like on the balcony or were you down elsewhere in 15 the complex? 16 A I was on the balcony. 17 Okay. Were you by yourself? 18 A Yes, ma'am. 19 And what were you doing? 20 A Just looking around. 21 Watching people? 22 A Yes, ma'am. 23 Okay. And so did something happen that 24 you thought was unusual or drew your attention? 25 A No, ma'am. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 222 Okay. Did you go back into your 2 apartment? 3 A Yes, ma'amback into your 5 apartment? 6 A Because I had to go get my cell phone. 7 Why did you have to get cell phone? 8 A Because of the Michael Brown incident, I 9 was going to go record it. 10 Okay. So let's get back and that is kind ll of why I was trying to get at while you were 12 outside, an incident started; is that right? 13 A Yes, ma'am. 14 Okay. And so tell the grand jury, or I'm 15 going to let you kind of tell your narration and 16 then if need be, we'll go back and kind of clarify 17 things. 18 Why don't you tell them what you saw 19 while you were standing on the balcony of your 20 apartment? 2l A Okay. Well, as I was sitting down, I 22 notice Mike Brown and another young man walking down 23 the street. They were in the middle of the street, 24 and then moments later a police cruiser pulls up. 25 I'm not sure if they exchanged any words or FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 223 anything, but that's when I went in the house to go 2 get my cell phone. I heard a gunshot and I rush 3 back outside, and I went to the other side of the 4 balcony and that's when I seen Mike Brown turning 5 around holding his wounds and then the police 6 officer continued to fire. 7 Okay. Keep your voice up, I know it is 8 natural for you to kind of talk to the person that's 9 closer to you, and your voice kind of goes down. 10 Will you do that? Make sure you are talking so we ll did hear you back here. 12 I'm sorry to interrupt you, but go 13 ahead, you said, and I missed part of what you said. 14 So you said when you came back out after getting 15 your cell phone, let's start at that point. 16 A Came back out from getting my cell phone, 17 I seen Mike Brown holding himself, like holding his 18 wounds. And he turned around and took, I guess, 19 like a step towards the officer, whether he was 20 lunging forward because he was falling from his 2l getting shot. I know the officer just kept firing. 22 And as he was going to the ground, the officer fired 23 a couple more shots and then that was it. 24 Okay. So during this whole incident, 25 other than to go in to get your cell phone, did you FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 224 1 stay on the porch or the balcony, what do you call 2 that area that's right outside the front door? 3 A The balcony. 4 The balcony. Did you stay there during 5 that entire incident other than like you said, you 6 went in to get your phone? 7 A No, ma'am. 8 Where did you, where did you go? 9 A I just went in the house and back outside. 10 Okay. Was that, I'm talking about you've 11 already said that you were outside and you see a 12 please officer and some boys? 13 A Yes. 14 And at this point you hadn't heard any 15 gunshots, right? 16 A No, ma'am. 17 Then you went in your house to get the 18 phone? 19 A Yes. 20 While you were in your house, you heard a 21 gunshot? 22 A Yes, ma'am. 23 And then you come out? 24 A Yes, ma'am. 25 So from the time you come back out until FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 225 Mike Brown is lying in the road, did you stay on 2 your balcony? 3 A Yes, ma'am. 4 Okaylaser pointer, so you stayed right around this area 6 and can you show the grand jurors where the police 7 car was when you first saw it? 8 A Around this area. (indicating) 9 Do you recall what direction it was 10 facing? ll A It was facing towards this way. 12 (indicating) 13 If this is east and the police car was 14 facing east? 15 A Yes, ma'am. 16 Now, when you looked, when you first 17 noticed it, was it standing still or was it moving? 18 A It was standing still. 19 Okay. So you didn't notice anything 20 before you looked and you saw the police car 2l standing, or not moving and it was in the middle of 22 the street? 23 A Correct. 24 And where were the boys when you first saw 25 the police car? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 226 A Um, they were sort of kind of in front of 2 it. 3 Okay. Were they walking or standing 4 still? 5 A They were walking. 6 And which direction did it look like they 7 were walking? 8 A They were heading east as well. 9 Okay. So they were going in that 10 direction as well? ll A Yes, ma'am. 12 And so from your vantage point then, could 13 you see the driver's side of the car? 14 A No, ma'am. 15 So you are looking at the passenger side? 16 A Yes, ma'am. 17 And so could you see the officer inside 18 the car from that at this point from your balcony? 19 A No, ma'am. 20 And so you said that you saw the two boys 2l and the officer appear to have some kind of 22 communication? 23 A Yes, ma'am. 24 Could you hear what was being said? 25 A No, ma'am, was too far away. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 227 Could you hear anything like, you know, 2 words, but you couldn't make it out? 3 A No, ma'am. 4 No screaming? 5 A No, ma'am. 6 Okay. And what, if anything, could you 7 see going on while the boys were at the vehicle? 8 A Just look like they were talking. 9 Okay. 10 A Like exchanging a few words and that's ll when I went to go get my cell phone. 12 Okay. Can you give me an idea or an 13 estimate as to how long you were in the house 14 getting your phone before you came back out? 15 A Probably about 30 seconds to a minute. 16 Okay. And while you were inside is when 17 you heard the first gunshot? 18 A Yes, ma'am. 19 And then did you come right out after 20 that? 2l A Yes, ma'am. 22 Did you have your phone with you? 23 A Yes, ma'am. 24 Did you start videotaping anything? 25 A No, ma'am. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 228 get your 2 phone? 3 A To Videotape, and actually to check it 4 too. I usually don't go outside without bringing my 5 phone, I just happen to leave it in there. 6 So you went in to get your phone because 7 you thought maybe something was going to happen and 8 you wanted to record it? 9 A Yes, ma'am. 10 And then you went in, you got the phone, 11 you hear a gunshot when you came out, but you didn't 12 start recording? 13 A No, ma'am. 14 Why not? 15 A Because it all happened too fast. 16 Okay. Too fast for you to really react? 17 A Yes, ma'am. 18 And so when you came out after hearing 19 that first gunshot, where was the officer? Was he 20 still in the police car or was he outside the police 21 car? 22 A He was outside the police car. 23 And where was Michael Brown? 24 A He was right across from me. 25 Was he standing up in the street or was Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 229 he, is this a point where he's down in the street? 2 A He was standing up. 3 Okay. What about the littler guy, where 4 was he? 5 A He was nowhere to be found. 6 Okay. So he somehow disappeared from your 7 View? 8 A Yes, ma'am. 9 And did you ever see him again during the 10 incident? ll A No, ma'am. 12 Okay. So when the officer, you come back 13 and the officer is outside of his car, is the door, 14 driver's door of his car open, do you recall? 15 A I don't remember, I didn't look at the 16 police officer's car. 17 Did you notice, did the officer have the 18 lights on on top of his car? 19 A Not that I remember. 20 All right. And when, so you said you saw 21 the officer out of his car and Michael Brown was 22 right there, can you describe for the grand jurors 23 like where they were in relation to the officer's 24 car? 25 A They were probably about a good l0 feet Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 230 1 from the officer's car. 2 So who was closer to the car, the officer 3 or Michael Brown or neither? 4 A The officer, where they was probably 5 directly across from each other, I probably say the 6 officer was. 7 Okay. So was the officer, if he's 8 standing next to his car, was he facing the rear 9 part of his car or was he facing the front part directly facing the car? 11 A Here was, can you repeat the question, 12 please? 13 Sure. If this, for example, is the 14 officer's car and the officer is outside of the car 15 now, is he facing his vehicle as I'm facing this 16 now, or if this is the front of the car, is he 17 facing the front of the car, is he facing away from 18 his car or is he facing the rear of his car or 19 something else? 20 A Well, they weren't by the car at that 21 point. 22 You said they were about 10 feet away? 23 A Yes, ma'am, but he was facing towards Mike 24 Brown. They were 25 Were they facing each other? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 231 1 A Yes, they were facing each other. 2 Did you see the officer's gun at this 3 point? 4 A Yes, ma'am. 5 Where was the gun? 6 A He had it drawn. 7 Okay. So it was out of his holster? 8 A Yes, ma'am. 9 Do you recall which hand it was in? 10 A No, ma'am. 11 And how was he holding it? 12 A I don't recall. 13 So you don't recall if it was by his side, 14 if it was pointed? 15 A It was pointed, I know that. 16 It is pointed? 17 A Yes, ma'am. 18 Okay. And so, and Mike Brown is facing 19 the officer at this point? 20 A Yes, ma'am. 21 How far away from the officer is Mike 22 Brown? 23 A Probably about seven or eight feet. 24 Seven or eight feet? 25 A Yes, ma'am. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 232 1 And then what happens? 2 A And then the officer starts to fire. 3 Okay. And does he fire in the direction 4 of Mike Brown? 5 A Yes, ma'am. 6 So the officer is outside of the car? 7 A Yes, ma'am. 8 And he's seven to eight feet from Mike 9 Brown at that point? 10 A Yes, ma'amhits Michael Brown? 12 A Judging from Mike Brown's reaction, it 13 looks as if he hits him. 14 Okay. Did you see any blood? 15 A No, ma'am. 16 So can you describe, or even if you can 17 demonstrate what you mean when you say judging from 18 Michael Brown's reaction? 19 A Well, he was holding his wounds as the 20 officer was firing, he started to fall towards the 21 ground. He fell to his knees first and then 22 collapsed all the way. 23 Okay. So let's, I think I understand that 24 there's a section missing here, so you said the 25 officer's vehicle was stopped here? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 233 1 A Yes. 2 Did he ever move that car? 3 A No. 4 So when you came back out and you saw the 5 officer and Michael Brown facing each other, and the 6 officer had his gun drawn, can you use the pointer 7 and show me where on the map they were? 8 A This area right here. (indicating) 9 And so what do you see happen then? 10 A I see the officer use excessive force to 11 take down Mike Brown. 12 Okay. So let's back up a little bit. You 13 said Mike Brown was standing facing the officer and 14 it looked to you like he, the officer fired at him 15 and it looked like he was hit? 16 A Yes. 17 And you describe that Michael Brown looked 18 like he was holding his wound at this point? 19 A Yes. 20 Was he holding his wounds before the 21 officer fired the shot that you saw or did he grab 22 his wounds after that shot? 23 A He was holding before. 24 Before? 25 A Yes. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 234 1 Can you demonstrate to the grand jurors 2 how you saw Michael Brown holding himself? Can you 3 stand up so they can all see you? 4 A Like this. (indicating) 5 So you have your right arm across your 6 torso, a little bit above your belly button area? 7 A Yes, ma'am. 8 And so you said Michael Brown had his arm 9 in that fashion and the officer fired a shot that 10 looked to you like it hit him? 11 A Yes. 12 And then what did Michael Brown do then? 13 A It looked like he just took the impact and 14 the officer kept firing and then that's when he 15 started to fall towards the ground. 16 Okay. Now, did you say a little bit ago 17 you saw Michael Brown take some steps? 18 A I seen him take one step. 19 One step? 20 A I don't know if he was taking the step or 21 if he was just, you know, falling forward. 22 Okay. And so you only saw him take one 23 step? 24 A Yes. 25 And this is first thing that you see when FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 235 you come back out of your apartment is that they are 2 already at a point somewhere around here. You said 3 where they're facing each other and the officer 4 fires and then Mike Brown lands at that point on the 5 ground? 6 A Yes, ma'am. 7 Okay. So whatever happened from the time 8 you saw Mike Brown at the vehicle until they're 9 here, you didn't see any of that? 10 A No, ma'am. ll And so how close did you say that the 12 officer was eight to ten feet away from Michael 13 Brown when he was firing the shots? 14 A Seven to eight feet. 15 Seven to ten. Did Michael Brown, did you 16 ever see him put his hands up in the air? 17 A No, ma'am, I did not see that. 18 But like I said, there's parts that you 19 didn't see since you come out and at this point 20 Michael Brown already has his hand here? 2l (indicating) 22 A Yes, ma'am. 23 If he had his hands up prior to that, you 24 didn't see it? 25 A No, ma'am. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 236 1 And you didn't see him running from the 2 officer? 3 A No, ma'am. 4 Now, you said, did you see, did you ever 5 see him run from the officer? 6 A No, ma'am. 7 Okay. From the first gunshot that you 8 heard while you were inside, is the next gunshot you 9 hear the one that you see when he fires, when he's 10 face?to?face with him? 11 A I'm not, I don't remember. 12 Okay. How many total gunshots do you 13 think you heard? 14 A Six or seven. 15 And you said that you saw Michael Brown 16 fall forward? 17 A Yes, ma'am. 18 Did he fall to his knees first or did he 19 just fall straight down? 20 A He fell to his knees first. 21 Okay. Did he remain on his knees for any 22 amount of time even if it was a couple of seconds? 23 A Yes, ma'am, it was probably a couple 24 seconds. 25 Okay. So he fell to his knees, did the FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 237 1 officer continue to fire? 2 A Yes, I think he let go one more shot. 3 And then you saw Michael Brown from his 4 knees, then did he fa11 forward? 5 A Yes, ma'am. 6 And when he was on his knees, did you see 7 him put his hand up? 8 A No, ma'am. 9 And when he was falling forward, did you 10 see him put his hands up? 11 A No, ma'am. 12 So when you saw him, he had a hand across 13 his torso? 14 A Yes, ma'am. 15 What was the other hand doing? 16 A I'm not sure, I couldn't see. 17 Okay. And did he keep his hand in the 18 position that you saw his hand the whole time you 19 saw him? 20 A Yes, ma'am. 21 Did he fall that way with his hand across 22 his torso? 23 A Yes, ma'am. 24 Did you, after he fell to the ground, did 25 the officer continue to fire? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 238 1 A No, ma'am. 2 Did you see what the officer did then? 3 A No, ma'am. 4 And why not? 5 A I was too busy looking around to see if 6 anybody else saw what I saw. 7 Okay. And did you see other people around 8 there? 9 A No, ma'am, not at the time until like 10 after, you know, a couple of minutes went by and 11 then I saw other people start to come outside. 12 Okay. Did you see, now you're in this 13 building, right? 14 A Yes. 15 Did you see anybody on the balconies over 16 here? 17 A No, ma'am. 18 And did you see cars, how about cars on 19 the street that might have been stopped? 20 A No, ma'am. 21 Did you see cars in either direction? 22 A No, ma'am, I didn't see any cars. 23 And, okay, so let's clarify. Are you 24 saying that there weren't cars there or you saying 25 you don't know if there were cars there? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 239 1 A I don't know if there were cars there. 2 Okay. And the same thing with somebody 3 being on the balcony here, are you saying there 4 wasn't anybody on the balcony next to you or you 5 saying you don't know if there was? 6 A I don't know if there was. 7 Okay. And then did you see the officer 8 who did the shooting, did you see him approach 9 Michael Brown's body after he fell on the ground? 10 A I don't remember. 11 Okay. Did you see what he did after that, 12 after Michael Brown fell on the ground? 13 A I don't remember. 14 During the time you saw the initial 15 encounter until Michael Brown was dead on the 16 ground, did you see any other police officers? 17 A No, ma'am. 18 Did you see any other police cars? 19 A No, ma'am. 20 Eventually did other police officers and 21 cars come? 22 A Yes, ma'am, eventually. 23 Did you go down to the street afterwards? 24 A No, ma'am. 25 Did you stay up in your apartment? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 240 1 A Yes, ma'am. And the next day you left is 2 3 that right? 4 A Yes, ma'am. 5 You had somebody, a family member drove 6 you 7 A Yes, ma'am. 8 Was that because of this that you felt you 9 needed to get 10 A No, ma'am. 11 So was this already planned that you were 12 going to 13 A Yes, ma'am. 14 On the 15 A Yes, ma'am. 16 But at some point, somebody came and 17 discovered that you had witnessed this? 18 A Yes, ma'am. 19 You didn't talk to the police that day? 20 A No, ma'am. 21 Why not? 22 A I really didn't want to be involved with 23 the whole entire situation. 24 Had you ever had a bad experience with the 25 Ferguson police officers? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 241 1 A No, ma'am. 2 Did they have a good or bad reputation or 3 if you know? 4 A I'm not sure. 5 Okay. So you not wanting to be involved 6 is just because you just didn't want to be involved 7 or was it because of distrust of the police officers 8 or? 9 A I just didn't want to be involved. I 10 didn't want that attention. 11 Do you know how it was that the police 12 found you? 13 A No, ma'am, I don't. 14 But eventually on August 18th, you recall 15 a couple FBI agents coming to talk to you 16 A Yes, ma'am. 17 Did you tell them what you saw? 18 A Yes, ma'am. 19 And now you actually here with 20 your mother to testify in this case; is that right? 21 A Yes, ma'am. 22 And did you do that willingly? 23 A Yes, ma'am. 24 And you met with the FBI, was it 25 yesterday? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 242 1 A Yes, ma'am. 2 And you made a recorded statement with 3 them? 4 A Yes, ma'am. 5 Okay. 6 MS. ALIZADEH: I don't have any more 7 questions. Sheila? 8 MS. WHIRLEY: Thank you. 9 (By Ms. Whirleyexcessive force? 11 A After the first shot, it's excessive. 12 I'm sorry? 13 A After the first shot that was excessive. 14 You thought after? 15 A After I came outside and I seen him 16 holding his wound, he didn't really have to keep 17 shooting. Mike Brown didn't pose a threat, to my 18 knowledge, he didn't pose a threat. 19 And you didn't see anything happening at 20 the police car, you just said, why did you go, what 21 was happening when you went and got your cell phone 22 again? 23 A They were just at the police cruiser. 24 You didn't see any tussling or car moving? 25 A No, ma'am. FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 243 1 Any loud noises or anything? 2 No, ma'am. 3 And then you went in to get your cell 4 phone because you always have it? 5 A Yes, ma'am. 6 You heard a shot? 7 A Yes, ma'am. 8 While you were getting your cell phone? 9 A Yes, ma'am. 10 You didn't see what was happening when the ll shot first went off? 12 A No, ma'am. 13 All right. And then was it just one shot 14 you heard before you got back out? 15 A I know one shot for sure, but I don't l6 remember. 17 Where were you at like on the balcony or 18 something? 19 A When I heard the shot? 20 Yeah, when you came back out and saw 2l everything? 22 A I was on the balcony. 23 So you never went downstairs? 24 A No, ma'am. 25 You were watching from the balcony? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 244 A Yes, ma'am. 2 So after you came out to the balcony with 3 your phone, a shot had already occurred? 4 A Yes, ma'am. 5 You say you saw Michael Brown facing the 6 officer? 7 A Yes, ma'am. 8 When he was holding his torso and that's 9 when all of these shots, you heard some more shots? 10 A Yes, ma'am. 11 Okay. Could you hear him saying anything? 12 A No, ma'am. 13 You weren't close enough to hear them 14 talking? 15 A No, ma'am. 16 What do you think the officer should have 17 done? 18 A Anything other than kill him. I'm pretty 19 sure the police training and police training they, 20 you know, have any other means of, you know, 21 corralling a suspect other than killing him. 22 You said he was wounded when he was shot 23 dead? 24 A Yes, ma'am. 25 I wasn't clear, did you record any of the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 245 1 incident, even afterwards? 2 A Afterwards, yes, ma'am. 3 So what did you record? 4 A I just recorded his body laying right 5 there and the officer just, I guess he was walking 6 around, I'm not sure. 7 But you didn't record the actual shooting, 8 you weren't quick enough to do that? 9 A No, ma'am. 10 Did at any time when you saw him with his 11 hands, we call this the torso, right? 12 A Yes, ma'am. 13 Around his torso, did he appear to be 14 going for a weapon? 15 A No, ma'am. 16 It was clear to you that he appeared to be 17 wounded? 18 A Yes, ma'am. 19 Could you see blood? 20 A No, ma'am. 21 Okay. And so why do you think he was 22 wounded again? 23 A Because I heard gunshots. 24 Okay. And it didn't look like he was 25 going for a weapon? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 246 1 A No, ma'am. 2 Did he ever look like he was rushing 3 toward the officer? 4 A No, ma'am. 5 Okay. And where were his hands when he 6 was falling to his knees before collapsing to the 7 ground? 8 A I don't remember. 9 And again, it did not appear to you like 10 he was charging the officer? 11 A No, ma'am. 12 MS. WHIRLEY: Questions. 13 When 14 you were looking at the police car, you were looking 15 at what, he driver's side or the passenger side? 16 A Passenger side. 17 Passenger side. So the 18 police vehicle was facing west or toward West 19 Florissant. 20 A No, it was facing towards east, going 21 towards Northwinds. 22 That way's east. If it 23 was facing east, then the driver's side would have 24 been toward you? 25 A Correct, but I wasn't, the balcony isn't FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unvwagorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 247 I all that big. 2 All right. You were at 3 an angle? 4 A Yes, ma'am yes, sir, I apologize. 5 That's close enough. 6 I just 7 need to clarify something. Did you hear any shots 8 while you were walking back into the apartment to 9 get your cell phone? 10 A No, ma'am. II The first shot you 12 actually heard when you came back out? 13 A The first shot I heard was when I was 14 inside. 15 You heard one while you 16 was on the inside? 17 A Yes, ma'am. 18 That was the shot you 19 heard? 20 A Yes, ma'am. 2l Okay. 22 MS. ALIZADEH: Anyone else? 23 I guess, did you 24 have head phones or anything on, were you listening 25 to music out on the balcony or playing a video game FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 248 or anything, or were you just sitting out there? 2 A I'm just sitting out there. 3 Just watching? 4 A Just watching, looking around. 5 I had another question. I 6 guess you know when you looked up and saw Michael 7 Brown at the police car, something must have made 8 you want to think it is more than just an innocent, 9 you know, stop right there. Because you ran in to 10 get your phone, can you think of why or what made ll you think there was something to record? Did you 12 hear loud voices, did you look at Michael's face, 13 did you know something was about to happen. 14 A It was just a gut feeling. Something just 15 toll me in my mind that you might want to go get 16 your phone. 17 So you just saw a few 18 seconds of that, whatever happened there. And then 19 it sounds like you just saw the very last few 20 seconds at the end before Michael Brown was shot to 2l death? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Okay. Thank you. 24 Your cell 25 phone, what room was your cell phone in? FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 249 A It was in the kitchen. 2 It was in the kitchen. 3 Was it plugged in a charger at that time? 4 A No, ma'am. 5 Okay. When you came from 6 the balcony into the house to get your cell phone, I 7 think you have to enter through the sliding doors in 8 the living room, is that how you enter your 9 apartment? 10 A You can or you can just go through the ll main door. 12 The main doorthere? 14 A I went through the door. 15 You went through the door? 16 A Yes, ma'am. 17 So where is that in 18 relationship, you have to walk to your left to the 19 right of the sliding glass doors or where are you 20 exactly positioned to the main door? 2l A It is on the right. 22 On the right. And how far 23 were you away from the main door at that point? 24 A Probably about two or three feet. 25 Two or three feet. You Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Grand Jury Volume XVII State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson October 28, 2014 owe-I?Page 250 know about how many feet you traveled in the apartment to get to your cell phone? A I'm not sure. Not sure? A I'm not sure. Okay. When you came back out, did you also go back out through the main door, the same path? A Yes, ma'am. Okay, all right, thanks. I don't have anything any more. MS. ALIZADEH: No more questions from you. At this point if there is no more questions, that will end the testimony of this witness. (End of the testimony of .) FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314~241-6750 unthgorepen3ncon1 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 251 1 2 State of Missouri 3 SS. 4 County of St. Louis 5 I, a Licensed Certified Court 6 Reporter by the Supreme Court in and for the State 7 of Missouri, duly commissioned, qualified and 8 authorized to administer oaths and to certify to 9 depositions, do hereby certify that pursuant to 10 Notice in the civil cause now pending and 11 undetermined in the County of St. Louis, State of 12 Missouri. 13 The said witness, being of sound mind and being 14 by the grand jury first carefully examined and duly 15 cautioned and sworn to testify to the truth, the 16 whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case 17 aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown in the 18 foregoing transcript, said testimony being by me 19 reported in shorthand and caused to be transcribed 20 into typewriting, and that the foregoing page 21 correctly sets forth the testimony of the 22 aforementioned witness, together with the questions 23 propounded by counsel and grand jurors thereto, and 24 is in all respects a full, true, correct and 25 complete transcript of the questions propounded to Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 252 1 and the answers given by said witness. I further certify that the foregoing pages DUN contain a true and accurate reproduction of the Ab proceedings. I further certify that I am not of counsel or mm attorney for either of the parties to said suit, not 7 related to nor interested in any of the parties or 8 their attorneysGore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 253 COURT MEMO MELON State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson mm 8 CERTIFICATE OF OFFICER AND 9 STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES 10 11 DEPOSITION OF Grand Jury, Volume XVII 12 13 10/28/2014 14 Name and address of person or firm having custody of 15 the original transcript: 16 17 St. Louis County Prosecuting Office 18 100 South Central, 2nd floor 19 Clayton, MO 63105 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 oxo-Iusoom ORIGINAL TRANSCRIPT TAXED IN FAVOR OF: St. Louis County Prosecuting Office 100 South Central, 2nd floor Clayton, MO 63105 Total: Page 254 FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XVII October 28, 2014 Page 255 1 Upon delivery of transcripts, the above 2 charges had not been paid. It is anticipated 3 that all charges will be paid in the normal course 4 of business. 5 GORE PERRY GATEWAY LIPA REPORTING COMPANY 6 515 Olive Street, Suite 700 7 St. Louis, Missouri 63101 8 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set 9 STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES 10 my hand and seal on this day of 11 Commission expires 12 13 Notary Public FAX 314-241-6750 Gore Perry Reporting and Video 314-241-6750