August 16, 2014 11:34 am. Special Agent (SA) Special Agent (SA) Federal Bureau of Investigation St. Louis Division SA SA Unknown Male Unintelligible Only Okay Only thing I could tell you is.. Okay ..what I saw, which wasn?t a whole lot. That's okay, every little But what I saw, I can tell you that, um Okay Today is the 16th of The sixteenth. Um We are here with, with We?re at and uh, this is what we?re gonna do gonna talk to Saturday. and and about, ah, what happened last Ah, just real fast, here, for the, for when we go you spell your first name for us? first name is spelled And how do you spell your last name Okay. Thank you. Okay, and ah, you said you?ve lived her for Going into the So, you know the neighborhood pretty well, you know lots of folks around here. don?t know hardly anybody but the you was talking to, kinda, these people come and go so know none of my neighbors. Matter of fact, next door is (Ul) in front of me is So, I know nobody I know that live in apartment cross, ov..er Okay Uh hmm. And, ah, so last Saturday, August around noon, where were you at that point? I was going to the trash dumpster. I was going down my steps in the back to the trash dumpster. You wanna know what I saw or something? Yes. us through. Okay, I saw the police talking to these two boys. Now, when I saw the two boys they were not in the middle of the street, they were kinda like, on the side of the street, and I saw the police talking to him, he said, I don?t know. Ididn?t hear. Then I saw him cut his car, his..cruiser, in front of the guys, you then he kept on talking. I kept walking, gon..gonna go on back to my trash dumpster. Then I heard a shot, or two shots, then I looked back, I didn?t see anybody laying in the street, I figured maybe shot or know let the when you say "he" you mean the officer? 2 mean the officer. Okay. I figured maybe them, gonna a warning shot or I kept heading back towards the dumpster. And then, as was turning the corner I heard boom, boom, boom, boom, six, seven shots. And I ran and ducked down between two cars in the parking lot because I didn?t know if it was a gun battle or they gonna come running down the street shooting at each other or not. So, I did duck behind two cars. And..at that time, people started coming out oftheir apartments, everybody heard all the gunfire and everything. stayed back there a few minutes because I don?t know what was going on out there and people had start congregating in the parking lot and out I didn?t hear m..anything else and I did have food on the stove, that?s why I was headed back to the trash dumpster. So, when I left the trash dumpster, they had already put the yellow the parking lot and all across the street and everything and they wan?t letting anybody up under so I told the officers that was there, I live in this building right here. I need to get up to my apartment. I had just left the trash dumpster, Okay. So that?s about what I know. And, when was coming ..you saw the body, in the middle ofthe street. Bleeding. Hm hmm. Yeah. And you experienced ah, very difficult thing 'cause you Yeah. ..and saw things that you..no one wants to see or hear. No. If we could start, kinda at the beginning, again. Uh hmm. Um, and we?ll kinda go through it. this the This is the Is this the Yeah, ?cause the first floor is kinda like a basement apartment to me, but this is considered.. Ah, yeah..you have to go some steps. Yes. This is the floor. And you?re facing Canfield. I?m facing Canfield. Okay. And ah, so, you had correct me if I'm just gonna kinda Yeah, yeaH. Okay, Iwill. Ah hah. Okay, so you had some hands? ..orjust one? and you had some trash in your hands, both Just one. One bag of trash. Just one. One bag of trash, ah hah. Okay. And when you got to go to the dumpster do you have to go left or right? go 'cause it?s trash dumpsters on the parking lot. Away from the Umm, in the middle in the parking lot, you know. And that?s away from the street? It?s away from the street, right. Um hmm. Okay. is the first time you, you..okay, you saw two gentlemen, um, two, two on the street that weren?t on the street, they weren?t on the street but they were towards the sidewalk. Or To me? They were looking like they were closer to the side walk. Okay. And, and so you saw the officer and his cruiser ah, go towards Angle his car in front of them, to not them. Okay. Um hmm. Um, and um, where did you saw that, where you on the on the ground ..walking on the ground floor. was on the sidewalk then. Ah hah. Okay. And, um, and then you you were walking can you describe the two gentlemen for me? By chance. One was tall, heavy set and the other was kinda African American? Afr..both of them are African Americans, correct. Alright. And, any idea of ages? I mean, I know it?s Oh can tell the ages of these kids Okay. Do you, boy that got killed he was a big guy, ya his friend was a smaller skinnier guy. Now, I couldn?t tell you their age ?cause most people can?t even tell me my age, Yeah, because you aged well. ?Kay. age, yeah. Telling age nowadays is hard, difficult, you know, to tell. Ah hah. Was one, ah, how 'bout anything distinguishing in regards to hair? One of ?em, Short ..the little thin one he had like dreadlocks or something. Okay. And the other onesomething on. Okay. Okay. And did you saw them did you see ah, from their back or from their front? Well, they was headed this way. Which way? They was headed what I don't grandmother lived in those complex behind here. Those townhouses Well, which direction were they going? (UI) right here. They wan?t headed towards West was Okay. Is I guess you would say East East on Canfield. East? Okay. Yeah. East on Canfield, um And, um, so they were towards the sidewalk Ah hah. ..and then the cruiser towards them to cut them off, in front of them. Ah hah. Okay. And at that point, you went towards the ah, towards the left, towards the trash dumpster. Towards the trash dumpster, right. Ah hah. And what, what did you hear next? Or what did you see next? I told you, I heard the two shots, a thought b..maybe it?d been one and I kinda looked back a didn?t see nobody on the ground so I figured maybe they just gave a warning shot or something. kept going. And then, as was turning the corner there, going to the trash when I heard all those shots and the parking lot and crouched down between some cars. Next to the dumpster? No, I hadn?t made it all the way to the dumpster, then. Uh uh. No. Okay, and when you heard those first two, one or two shots in the Uh ..and you looked Uh you didn?t see anybody on the Uh uh thought it might have been a warning shot. Uh Did you still see the three officer and the Ididn?t. Ididn?t. You didn?t I never saw the officer. Okay. Uh So, you don?t know whether the officer was sure don?t. Um, and the two individuals you saw earlier, the taller, heavier guy and 7 Right did you see them after you heard the shots? Or you didn't see them at all. Idon?t think I saw them at all. Okay. I really don?t think I did, no. You you said you didn?t see them on the Ah hah. you didn?t see them. Ididn?t see them. Okay. No, I didn?t. Okay, so then you still walked towards the I guess the, ah, the van kinda blocked them. So, I didn?t see them. A van or a police car? What do you call them the Well you called it a cruiser. What is it now? Let me ask you this ma?am, was it It wasn?t a regular car, you know. I Okay, was it like an Was it a van? Yeah, something like that I guess what put people in. Oh, what you call 'em? Oh, like But you know what a Ford Crown Victoria looks like, it wasn?t one of those? It wasn?t a car. was kinda like an Explorer, like something Yes, your talking about those vans that you say they put people in. Old time it would have been a Paddy Wagon but it wasn?t that big, but it wan?t that big? Ah ah. So, it?s a little bit smaller. Ah hah. Okay. So, yo..when you heard those one of two Ah hah. went back, didn?t see them on the ground, and kept walking toward the I kept walking. at that Ah hah. shots, or Ah hah. you crouched between two Ah hah. look back. No. Didn?t I was afraid! Ididn?t it was a gun battle and they would come running didn?t be in the line?d of it, so I crouched down besides some cars. My car and another car that was in the parking lot. Okay. Uh hmm. SA SA SA SA Um, and ah, from there you said you stayed down there for awhile. few (Ul)..right. and everybody start coming out ofthe running to the front. Okay. And theyjust asked me what?s happening. I said "sounds like gun shot out there? and so those young peoples was running to the front. So, then I go on back and empty my trash and then I come back around to go to my apartment. Uh And you said earlier that [pounding on doorwas some yellow crime there?s some tape or Is that at my door? Might be. Pardon me. One second. Hmm. Sure. (to person(s) at door) (UI) you guys. Sorry about that. Hmm. Um, so you said earlier that when you were coming back, you Ah hah. tape and they had to let Yeah, they was putting that, they was putting up the yellow tape then. That quickly. That quickly. Right. 10 Yes. And have you talked to anybody in law enforcement about this? Nnn. One guy came up here. believe he said he was a detective, ?cause he had on street clothes but he had a vest on that said police on it. Okay. And I told him the same thing I?m telling you all. Okay. Uh hmm. And, and, all we?re doing is, is we?re checking, happened exactly a week ago today, Uh hmm. Uh time or so, so we want to talk to people that, you know, if, if that?s they?re pattern of life, where they, they come around, Uh hmm. we want to make sure that, you talked to them and we?ll talk to them to at some point when we figure out who that other person Okay. the other detectives where, ah, we want to make sure that we talk to people. Ah hah. Certainly. Um, and when you came back up here, since that time, I mean, you?ve heard a lot of Yes. you?ve seen a lot of things on Uh hmm. I seen a right in front of my 11 Yeah, and in front of my building every day. No, I know. Every day they have that little talking ..they?re talking so seeing this constantly every day, every day. The candle light vision, they had Sunday I believe there may have been a thousand people on this street. No question. I stand up on my porch and look down, I don't go down there and get in the mix, I?m an person, I don?t I told the detective, I don?t want to be in the middle of this. I says there?s enough young people out there and they have cameras, they have Right. Aha. L..the magic of ah, ah electronics these Right. ..everybody was taking pictures. Tablets and ah, ah they was taking pictures. Right. was saying you probably can get more information from some of those young people down there having pictures. I don?t have the camera or (UI) ..all I can tell you is the little bit I saw. No, and, and, and we appreciate that very much. I would have asked you you had a camera or anything like that. You didn?t have a camera to where you the have one on the telephone, I don't even know how to use that. Well, that?s just like I am. Hahah. You know, I am not good with that electronic stuff, have no computer, have no facebook, I have nothing like that. Only reason I have that is for emergency purpose, my kn.. say you Right. 12 and have a flat tire, or something happen, you need a phone. Now, you live here live here Okay. but as you I never had any worries living here. I never had anything happen to me. Oh no, it?s a nice area. Uh hmm. I mean, It was a nice area. They?re gonna tear it down. Yeah. Ya know? ..yeah, this is something that certainly happens once in every couple hundred years so I.. Yeah. we apologize for about this but we want to make sure, is there anything else that we should ah, that you don?t, recap and we?ll kinda go through Yeah. exactly what happened when you and again correct me or correct whenever we make something or we say something wrong. Now, getting back, a little you um, you?re, you?re ah Okay. What?s a good phone number for you? That phone number here. You don?t have a phone do you have a home phone too, well you do I I have a phone. What?s, what?s your don't mind Now, my told be sure and get you alls name 13 And we?re gonna right everything down about us. (Ul) or something. Yeah, she called me this morning. Right. And, and you saw our credentials earlier. Huh? I saw your credentials. And we are gonna right down all our information for you Okay. Because she told me, I guess she figure you only on your (UI) you can, point of contact, yes. need to follow up on something, you know, haha, I will. So there?s no question. the guy who gave me the first card said he 'd be out some time next week to talk to me, or something. Now, um, what is your name? Or, this, this, Or is this your Ah hah. Ah hah. Okay. Okay. Can we have name? Do you..can we have name in case matters not to if you?d like to give us name, in case wants to talk to us too. You can have Okay. That?s right. Okay. Okay, and what?s a good number to get a hold of at? 14 Okay, and what It?s a tough ecomony, that?s for sure. Uh Uh And what is your cellphone emergencies? And um, so as Um hmm. you were cooking some food that Um hmm. and you took down a bag of trash to the trash Uh so you?re on the walking towards the Uh hmm. ..and saw two African American males, um, Uh hmm. one bigger, one smaller, one with dread locks [pounding continues], one ah, one heavier second [leaves interview] One thin and one heavy. You copy that? What? They want us to return the vehicle, they?re going to do a rally here, she Alright brother. Just tell him 15 SA [closes door(UI) We?ll be here. Alright. Sorry about that. Umm, no problem. Um, so there was an African American who was bigger, uh, and the smaller African American had dreadlocks. Um hmmpolice cruiser, you called it a Um hmm. That's the one I?m trying to think It?s probably a situation where it?s a little big bigger than a car, bigger than your car. Yeah. Yeah, cruisers bigger than a car. Haha. And so, officer pulled in, in front of Ah hah. an angle, to cut them off. Yes, yes. You, when you saw Ah hah. they were towards the sidewalk, they weren?t in the middle of the street. When I saw were towards the sidewalk. Right. And, ah, you didn?t hear Never did hear anything. in regards to 16 never did hear anything. And From anyone? (UI) saying something to them, but I don?t know what he was saying to them. You kne..it appeared to be, er from what you saw it appeared to be a conversation between or words were exchanged? Well, only heard the police saying something but what he said I don?t know. Okay, but you did hear the police officer say something? Ah hah, ah hah. Okay, but you don?t know what it was. What it was, I don't know. So, you?re walking towards the Uh hmm. you hear one, or two, I say two but mighta been one. I?m not sure. Okay and that?s fine. Ah hah. But you do remember hearing a shot, at least. Yes. Yes. Okay. Um, so you look back.. I kinda looked back. ..you didn?t, you didn't see I didn?t see anything. You didn?t see anyone on the ground. Right. 17 But you also didn?t see the two African American males. Ah hah. And you didn?t see the officer. Uh uh. Okay. So, you 'cause I only looked back briefly. Right. Okay. And then you just to the dumpster. Ididn?t just stop and turn and then start staring that way, I just looked back briefly, ya you kept walking towards the Right. And at that point, you heard six shots or Yeah. In succession, really quickly, after each Six, seven shots or so, yeah. Okay. And, ah, so you ducked down between your car and another I ran and ducked down between two cars, right. Okay. And um, you didn?t look back to where the shots came from. Oh no! 'Cause, was going to the dumpster.. Right. So, the shots was all in the street, you know. Right. Um hmm. And so you didn?t, ah, you didn?t look out or anything, you just, you stayed down there for a little 18 And peoples as just running out of there apartments and say somebody?s shooting, then sound I said it sounds like gun fire, you know, all these kids, calling ?em Oh right, right. coming out of their apartment. So, I stayed there for a few minutes and then went and emptied my trash and then I back that way because everybody started congregating real fast, like I Right. And like I said, they was putting the tape Officers were putting the yellow tape up. Putting the tape up. Okay. And you explained to them, Uh hmm. Uh hmm. Uh hmm. Uh hmm. Do you have any idea what time it was? That you actually went You know I don?t, because I didn?t check the time. You know, Ijust had my television going, and ah, I had some Was that breakfast or lunch? No, no, no. you remember what was on tv? What you were watching? 19 What was I watching? hah, no, I don?t. That?s fine. Okay. So, then you came back up here and since that time, you?ve, again, you?ve talked to some people, your neighbors and some people that you?ve seen but you have not ah, been down, I mean it's right below your window but, you haven?t participated in any of have because you?ve been up here but you haven?t gone down and participated in the vigils or No, ?cause I can see everything from my I can see everything from my And you?ve got no relatives or family living in this No, I don't. Um, you know a few people here, you know Right. Right, very good. Um, and ah, I don?t know if there is anything else that we need. I, I can?t think of anything offthe top of my head. Um, we?ve got your contact numbers, okay, in case we need to follow up, ?cause like we said we..we want to make sure that everything is done right, Okay ah, in case there?s something that comes along down the line. Okay. We really do truly appreciate um, you taking the time to talk with and I, What we?ll do, I?m sorry what we?ll do is we'll put both our names and phone numbers on the back of here and you or your can call us at don?t mind us calling you again correct? Yeah. You?re FBI, I don?t mind. Well, I appreciate that very much. Okay. 20 Long as you do a thorough investigation, I'm happy to see you all here. And, and we appreciate that. Whatever way it come out, I think the pe, getting tired, I?m sorry. think the people should know the truth. Okay. I think that what ever was done should come out, and maybe all of this confusion will go it?s been traumaticjust living in the midst ofthis. I?ve had friends and family trying to get me to Right. Other than being in the middle of this. But this is my home, I been here nobody?s bothered me. Nobody?s bothered me here and been conducting themselves so well with these things they was doing here except for all that looting. ?Cause I was proud of the way they was handling things, they talking, they trying to give these young people some positive outlooks on killing each other and the police killing you know, and telling ?em about education, they need to get their sit here and I look, or I sit there on those steps and I look, you Okayeverything. and was born and raised in Florissant and ah, we moved out in the late early and Ferguson has always had a great reputation. Yes, it has. And all your That?s why I been here No. friends are saying you need to move. Yeah. 21 This is home for you. Your not moving, this is an isolated thing. It?s, it?s a tragedy, there's no question about it, it?s But, they understand your personality, and I understand your personality a little bit now just living. Yeah. And your not in amongst the people, say up the street with that craziness happening up there, that?s not right but that?s some expression that these folks have decided that they need to do. And like I say if you or your niece wants to talk to someone else will talk to Okay. ..cause what I like, we won?t do it now Uh hmm. it's raining out there and there's a lot of people out there, and it?s none of their business. Right. What we?ll probably do in the next week, with your Hmm. come out and talk to you Okay. or someone else will, um, and have you kinda walk us through show us where your car was parked, where you saw Oh, my opposed we have a great idea what happened 'cause we?ve gone over it three times but for you to show us physically maybe, potentially, that might help us out to see where you were at vantage points and you may recall something if you did that Iwish I could. 22 you actually walk through it again. Ah hah. And not something you want to do but it?s something that might help us out to have us an idea as to what you saw, because then you think ooh something else. We won?t do that now because for one they?re having a rally out there at It?s too bad out there now. It?s no one?s concern or business. Uh And it?s raining. So, with your permission, we can set that up and probably walk through that again. Uh hmm. Um, have you got questions for us at all, by chance, Have I any questions for you two? Yes. Yeah. No, I have told you everything I know so I have no questions other than the questions you asked me, I tried to respond as well as I remember and to the best of my ability. Oh, no. No, you?ve done tremendous. I mean, ah, I have it?s from one of those lifetime memories 'cause you?ve never experienced that. Uh hmm. Thank goodness. Uh hmm. Um, so it?s something that?s to where you..it?s indelible in your mind. Oh yeah. But, then again, you don?t want to remember it because it?s not a pleasant thing. Uh hmm. Um, I?m going to right our information on the back of 23 I'd appreciate it. ..the only other thing is I?d to maybe get your date of birth if you don?t mind. Okay, so if you're older than My date of birth, I don?t mind telling Right. My date of birth is Okay, well I was born in so we?re good. Uh hah. what year? Okay, okay. Well, we?ll wish you the best here. I?m gonna Agent here is from out of I appreciate it. Oh, okay. He?s a couple hours out. So, I?m gonna give (UI) information, I?m in, I?m gonna give you my information, I?ll put his name What?d you lose babe? My phone. I thought I saw it over here. I thought you picked it up. No, no, no not there. On the sofa. Where Is not in your pocket? I mean in your coat pocket. 24 [shuffling] I thought you picked it up. It?s 11:58 and we?ll be concluding. 25