September 3, 2014 2:47 pm. Detective St. Louis County Police Department Bureau of Crimes Against Persons Detective Det. Special Agent SA AUSA DET Okay today is Wednesday September 3, 2014, and the time is 2:47 pm. DET. DET. DET DET DET. This is Detective with the St. Louis County Police Department?s Bureau of Crimes Against Persons . I?m here at the FBI St. Louis Office in a conference room ah, with several individuals. I?ll go through the, ah, room now and identify those people. Special Agent with the FBI, ah, with the Justice Department, with the US. Attorney?s Office and sir would you say your name for the recorder please? Okay and what is your date of birth? And your home address? Ah, Thafs Ah, okay and you have a cell phone sir? Ah, yes What is that? DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. Okay, and also present with you today is ah, Mr. is it correct? like Okay and ah, Mr. you are a, an attorney representing is that correct? Yes, yes and I?m licensed in the Eastern District of Missouri and the State of Missouri as well as others but the only important ones are the Eastern District of Missouri for today I presume and State of Missouri. Okay, and uh, Mr. we have obviously had several conversations with you, ah, over the past ah, several days is that correct? No. And say several days with you and/or your attorney about coming and meeting is that correct? Oh yea you talked to my attorney. Okay, and ah, for the purposes of today ah, you?ve came down here voluntarily under your own accord is that correct? Right. And, you?re okay being here? Yeah. Uh huh. And we?ve already mentioned to you that this was gonna to be recorded you?re okay with that right? Right. Uh huh. Okay, and um, do you have any questions before we begin? No. Okay. So as I ah, had previously mentioned or I guess I did not mention this is in reference to St. Louis County Complaint Number 14-43984 ah, which is an incident that took place in the Canfield Green Apartment Complex on Saturday August 9, 2014. would you ah, please tell us your accounts of ah, what took place on the 9th of August. Okay, to the best of my DET. Yes sir. I was had left from the apartments and I was going over to my and I turned around and came back the police truck was parked kinda. Okay the police truck was parked kinda I couldn?t get by sol stopped and I looked up him and this black male was you know like struggling you know what I?m saying. They was tussling and the police were sitting in the car and the black male was at the window right? And they went on for about two minutes I?d say. So, I sit there and watch then all of the sudden I heard a yeah right. Black male took off running. He ran down the street and I don?t know and in my mind I thought he maybe got hit because he couldn?t run that didn?t run that far he run I?d say about maybe three car or two and there was a brown car sitting there. He put his hand on the back of the brown car. Then the officer got out the truck he was kinda like chasing behind but the officer wasn?t running that fast you know like he was shaken up or something and all of sudden the young man he turned around and started coming back towards the officer yeah right. Then the officer shot him a couple times then that's when I turned around (UI) I said it's time for me to go now. I turn around right there in front of the officer truck and I burn out. DET. Okay and um, were you with anyone in your vehicle? Was I with anybody? Ah, at the time no, there wasn?t nobody. DET. Nobody else was in your vehicle? No. DET. And can you describe the vehicle that you were driving that day? Yes, was driving Can we take a break? DET. Uh huh. Yeah. DET. Sure you want me to stop? Please. Uh huh. - End of Part 1 - DET. DET. DET. FEMALE VOICE: DET DET. SA SA Okay, so the time is 2:53 pm, and we are resuming the interview with ah, at the FBI St. Louis Office here. Okay so ah, we left off ah, you were in your vehicle correct? Right. And which way were you, ah, heading on Canfield Drive? I came from West Florissant was coming up I was coming straight up. Okay. Do you mind? I don?t mean to interrupt just want for a clarification and it?s not to be disruptive. He said truck. I?m presuming without knowing because I haven?t interviewed him about this that he?s talking about a marked squad car do you want to clarify that. Yeah-yeah, I think well, sure. mean to interrupt your train ofthought but I'm, ya know as listen he said he went around the truck. Well, ya know you could have a van police vehicle ?cause you've got those but I just wanted to be clear what we?re talking about for you guys? Yeah, absolutely. Yes, and we?ll get to that. Okay. Sorry we just have this here so if you could kinda show where Where-where West Florissant at? Over here sorry. (Two people talking at same time) SA DET. Could you identify to him what that is he may not be clear on an aerial shot. Here is West Florissant and Canfield. Sure. SA SA SA DET. SA DET. SA DET. SA Alright And then, I don?t know where you were going but this is Northwinds right here. Right-right-right, was coming up from West Okay. up Canfield this was ?cause like I stayed over in here in the In the North-in the Northwinds Apartments or is this still Canfield? 'cause I had moved out from my Sit down .. I there so I was coming back up in there. Okay, just so we?re clear you said that you were um, just for the purposes of the recording you were on West Florissant and you were traveling east on Canfield Drive? I came from ah, let me see West-West Uh huh. and was coming back east when I got to West Florissant I made ah, left coming into Canfield and when I got on up into Canfield that?s when officer the police truck was kinda halfway in the street right and I seen him and the young black guy. Okay I?m gonna, can I stop you there for a second just so we understand. So you are at this point you are and If you Agent can ah, can obviously point out to what we are talking about here, but you are west of the police car or east ofthe police car? No-no-no-no-no, no when Okay, can you you draw the police car? Yes ma?am. Okay. The police car was sitting somethin? like that and my truck was sitting there. 5 SA DET. SA SA SA SA SA DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. Okay. And which direction was your acing? Can you make and arrow? I was the driver you know I was headed that way. So, just make an arrowjust to yep, I mean can you make it were the front of the police car This is the front of the police car. Okay. He wasn?t all the way across there, but he was It was enough that is was blocking? Right-right-right and then the young black guy was standing right there and the police was sitting at his seat and the was tussling (UI) for a few minutes and then all of a sudden I heard a shot and it was the driveway right here somewhere. I turned around in the driveway right and headed back out. Okay. Then I came on around and came into the back. Can we, can I slow you down forjust a minute? Yeah. Now you said you pulled up on the-on the police car right? huh. how They was into it when I pulled up. And how many people you see in the car? In the police car? Yeah. DET. DET. DET. DET. SA SA DET. DET DET. Ah, just the police. Okay, and how many people did you see outside of the car? Outside of the car? Uh huh. There was just him and there was another black guy standing back behind the police car. And when you?re referring to him who are you talking about? I?m sorry. And when you?re referring to him who are you talking about? Ah, ah, the young man and the police was tussling. Do you know his-his name now? Ah-ah, Michael something you know what I?m saying? Yeah, Mike. Okay, so you saw Mike and the police officer. Uh huh. Right Okay when you're saying, tussling what do you mean by tussling can you describe that? Ah, well he had a hold to Mike?s shirt and Mike had a hold to his shirt you know what I?m saying you know so, there was ya know like you know like I looked like Mike was throwing a couple blows you know while trying to get loose you know what I'm say you know so like ya know, like then all a sudden I hear the you know and then that so, can gonna have to stop you there, can I stop you ?cause I wanna, just want to talk about what?s taking place before the gun shot happens okay? Uh huh, right. So you?re saying Mike, do you remember what Mike was wearing? Ah, let me see I know it was some short pants and ah, I saw like a grey I saw like a grey shirt on. DET. DET. DET. DET DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. Okay. Now did you know Mike before this or do you know him since this based off of the media associated with this case? No-no. Never saw him before in my life. Okay, so he?s standing where again? I?m sorry. He?s standing where? Oh he?s standing by the police window of the police truck. Okay-okay, and is, the officer is where? Sitting down in the truck. Okay, and so this interaction between the two of them you said tugging on each other?s is that taking place and I know the right there. Okay. In the car? Outside the car? Ah, he?s standing outside the car window. In the window? you he was standing outside the car window and the police was in the truck. Okay, can you describe the actions of the police officer in the car? I?m sorry. Can you describe the actions of the police officer in the car? Well, all seen from the police from look to me from what I saw it looked like the police was just trying to keep him blocked and was holding on, ya know, like that?s what it looked like okay you know he just and you know had him blocked and then ya know like the young man was trying to hit the police and then police must have leaned over long enough to get to his gun right. Okay and all a sudden I heard one shot POW and then that?s when he took off running. DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. Okay now you as you?re demonstrating this and again just for the recording as you're demonstrating this, you got your left arm up almost in a defensive posture is that what the officer was doingcould see is, you know, like you know like, ya know, he was trying to block 'cause like if somebody trying to punch you you know like ya know like you know you tryin? to stop the punch you know what I?m saying a hold but all I know both ofthem had a hold to one another?s shirt right and seen the young man was punching at him you know what I?m saying the officer last time I seen the officer he was leaning like that and I heard a shot. Okay now you say leaning like that describe that what you?re saying there, leaning Ah-ah, in his truck you know like if I?m sitting in my truck Mr here and he?s at my is it a marked police squad? Ah yeah-yeah-yeah the car had police on it. Okay. It's not a truck? Right-right, looked like a Jeep. Well, Okay. You know like tem short bed trucks (UI). Like an SUV. Right, right something like that he sitting in there and say this is my window and he sitting there and I got a hold to Mr. shirt and Mr. got a hold to my shirt like this and Mr. trying to hit me and I?m like this and then when he lean on like that the next thing I heard was a shot. Okay, so your describing if you?re the officer your describing yourself leaning over Hang on let him answer. And hang on here?s what I want to do okay Ijust want to make some clarifying ah, statements so we understand what you?re saying and if DET. DET. DET. SA DET. DET. anything I say or anything that anybody says in here is incorrect please, please correct anything that we are saying okay. Yes sir. So what you?re saying is the officer is reaching out of the car holding- holding onto Michael Brown?s shirt. Michael Brown is reaching into the car holding onto the officer?s shirt. Right, right. The officer is leaning over more toward the center console of the vehicle is that correct . Right leaning over toward the passenger seat yeah-yeah-yeah you know like Okay, and then Michael Brown is, is and you used ah, you used your attorney?s what would be left hand, the left hand on Michael Brown would have been striking. N-no. Michael Brown was hittin? I think with this hand, with this hand here. His right hand? Oh I?m sorry your right hand. Yeah, because I right face the truck and Michael Brown standing like where she at and you sittin? were the police sittin? Hey let?s do it this way. I?ll sit you be the guy outside the car. Okay, alright now, take this my truck right here right I?m facing him right. Okay and I pull up there. I?m sitting in the car. Right-right-right-right. Okay. The officer hitted him there he hit the officer alright. He punched the officer and the officer lent over this way yea right and the officer had this arm up- this arm up-up like we holding onto the shirt, holdin' onto the shirt, right. Okay. 10 DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. And then all of sudden I heard the shot POW and then the boy took off and ran right okay then the boy ran I?d say about two three car and put his hands on the back of a brown I think it was a mercury I?m not for sure I?m not good to good with cars. And then the officer got out of the truck he had his gun down to the side say he going down side from the driveway though he going back to the truck like trying to keep him in sight and then boy took his hands off the truck, And the boy your referring to Michael Brown. Michael okay. took his hand off the car and he was coming back toward the police right and then all of a sudden I heard a few more shots I turned around. was hauling back you know what I?m saying so I turned around and got out ofthere you know. From there, I turned around right in front of the police car was a driveway right there somewhere you know what I?m saying so then I see a few people standing out there and over there and there was a white car behind me because I couldn?t back up that much to get out the way you know what I?m saying? Uh huh. Okay alright, so when Michael Brown runs from the vehicle and I think you already said this but what direction does he run in? He run And you can use the map. the driver?s side he run back up this a way. He ran back up this way is this West Florissant he ran back up Canfield this way and there was some cars parked up in there somewhere yeah right this might not be the exact spot right here but ya know he ran back that way you know what I'm saying? And there was some cars parked on the side there that he put his hand on the back on one of the cars like this. It looked like he was gave out of breath or something. And then he the officer was coming towards him and then he turned around I heard two or three more shots and burnt rubber you know what I?m saying I was gone. Okay so, roughly now on that map can you indicate where Michael Brown stopped? Let me see can I find something can remember on here. 11 DET. DET. DET. DET. DET DET DET. Meaning lent over to the brown car? Correct. Leaning over in front. Alright, okay let-let say what it is alright this a police car here right okay alright and I say he ran somewhere you know like I don't know if he passed this street I don?t even know what street this is but I know he ran back here and to the left here there was some cars parked to the left here. And let's say the car was parked right there and then he like- like this him running he run like that and then he stop there. Now then the police had got out of the car on the same driver?s side. He was coming behind and then police got about right there Mike had came back up yeah right ok and then all a sudden I heard POW, POW again and I turned around right in here somewhere and headed back out of there came all the way around up Chamber and came back into the back way. Okay and so the point that-the point that Michael Brown takes off running and the officer gets out of the car right? Uh huh, yeah. When is the next time that you hear a gun shot? Well, as I?m leaving I heard a couple joints shot out also you right okay, then I didn?t know what to think you know what I?m saying so like nothing till I heard everything on news after that you know what I?m saying.? Okay, again you said that Michael Brown stopped kinda where you made that mark on the map is that correct? It might not be the exact spot. And I, we?re not holding you to down to exacts on this okay. At the point that Michael Brown stopped on that on that map roughly you said he stops and puts his hands on the car for a moment, right? Right. Kinda just leaning over as if he?s a, tired is that fair? Yeah, tired or hit once you know I'm like, yeah, uh huh. Okay alright and then and-and let?s just take this little segment of the incident okay. Let's not focus on anything else let's just slow down and 12 DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. take this little segment of the incident. What does Michael Brown do at that point? Well, all I seen was you know like I said I was turning around at the point. Okay. I was turning around and when I was seen Michael Brown see all see is he take the hand off the car and he coming back. He?s coming back toward the police officer? Yes, he?s coming back toward the officer right and then after that I had got turned around okay right my my back to em, okay. Okay, and let?s-let?s stop you there okay. You said he?s coming back towards the officer. Describe how he?s coming back towards the officer? Ah, last time I saw him he had his hand on his car like this then I turned around like this and then ya know, like hey then after that I was-l was-I was headed this way turned around. Okay, alright let?s-let?s talk about the point where you haven?t left yet okay? Alright. Describe Michael Brown coming back towards the officer. Okay, like I said after he took his hand off the car the officer was coming down this a way okay right and I guess he was tired or something after he took his hand off the car he was coming back towards the officer right and now I?m turned around halfway. Okay, okay coming back towards the officer is he walking, is he skipping, is he running? What?s he doing? Well, from my recollection you know like he wasn?t running. Okay. You know like he was walking he was walking towards the police he was walking kinda fast but you know just walking. Alright, is he saying anything? 13 DET. DET. Idon?t know I really don?t Is the officer saying anything? And that's the honest to God I really don?t. Did you have your windows up or down? I?m sorry. Windows up or down? Ah, my window was down yeah-yeah. My widow was down yep. Uh huh. Do you know how-do you recall how many steps Michael Brown took toward the officer before you turned around? No, because like when I saw Michael Brown he was turned around coming back you know like all I could see was he was coming fast you know like I Okay. know, like really I messed me up you know what I'm saying you know to even see somebody wrestling with the police you know what I?m saying though like in the first place you know like I don?t care what I did I ain?t going to wrestle with the police ?cause you know you?re not supposed to do that you know what I?m saying? So you see him turn around and you just showed that he took several steps towards the police officer quickly. Well, all I know he was coming towards the police I don?t know-l don't know how many step, what because like I said after the first shot I was on my way turning around Right. Ok. okay because like ya know, I?m scared now. ?cause like I don?t wanna be involved, okay right, because like I had a bad experience of trying to help people you know what I?m saying you know like I was turning around getting out of there after that because And the way that you moved the last time that you stood up Uh huh. 14 DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. you moved in a much quicker and um, more aggressive fashion. Did it look to you like Mike was coming back to try to talk with the officer or did it look like Mike was coming after the officer what did it look like to you ?cause you said that you were scared. You know I (UI) to myself an awful lot ma?am and-and really honest to God truth I can?t say either way but you know if I was the officer I would look nervous too you coming back toward me and you just hit me you know what I?m saying you know like you know but-but I really can?t say about that ma?am and tell the truth you know what I?m saying you know. That?s fair. That?s what we want tell the truth. Did you see ah, where were Michael Brown?s hands when he was walking back toward the officer? That's-that's another thing but when the last time I seen Michael Brown when he got off the car he was like this right but that?s the last thing I saw. Okay and like this just for the purposes of the recording your hands When he took his hand off the car last thing I seen like that. Down at your side in a normal position. Right-right that is the last thing I saw you know like far as I could see you know what I?m sayin?? Yeah, that?s the last thing I saw you know and like I said I was turning around there and a I came on back around the back way and then that?s when I went in the and told my that ya know like hey there had just been a shooting around the corner then the police was coming as I was coming out police was coming in. Okay, and I know you said that we?re not going to do distances on this okay did you see ah, you saw the officer outside of his car right? Yeah-yeah I saw the officer when he got. As Michael Brown is coming back towards I saw the officer when he got out, yeah, right. 15 DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. did you see the officer shoot at that point when he was outside the car? No-no, Ididn?t see the shot okay, but I heard-I heard the shot yeah, righ. I didn't see the shot, I heard. So at the point that-that he starts walking back or moving back towards the officer is the point where you are now focused on your vehicle turning your vehicle around is that a fair assessment? Oh yeah, I was then I was looking you know like to see whose, anybody else seeing this you know what I?m saying you know. That?s when I saw all the people and this white car behind me I was trying not to hit that ?cause I was trying to, ya know, get out of there you know what I?m saying? Okay, alright and so you turned around and you went back I went back to West West Florissant. took a right on West Florissant came up to Chamber came round to the back way I don?t know the name of that street but ah, just old something like that ah, right in front of the fire station on a-a Chamber. There?s a fire station right there Sure, sure, okay. and there?s a street you can come into the back of the apartments there you know. Okay, so we?ve talked about now the incident itself right and we?ve talked about ah, the first male that was there Michael Brown you said when you originally were talking you said that you saw two males there. Yeah, I scene another boy running on this side running that way. Wait a minute. What side? Ah, ah after the shot I seen another boy running towards the Oh can we back up when you first pull up Uh huh. and you see the police car in the middle of the street. 16 DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. Right. you see two males out there right? Right-right one standing back there and one.. Wait, when you say standing back Right, he was all like-like say this the truck, he?s standing like back by the truck like about like this on the-on the passenger side. Okay. On the passenger side of the truck. Right, he standing back like this, yeah on the passenger side. Okay, so just standing there? Yeah-yeah he?s just standing there but Mike Brown and the officer, he you was looking in the driver?s side which the officer they was into it. Okay, and what is that second individual not Mike Brown what?s that second individual wearing? What?s he look like? Really honest to God I can?t tell what he was wearing ?cause really don?t remember ?cause I was paying so much attention to ah, the kid fighting with the officer you know. Is there a size difference between two the two black men that you saw? Yeah-yeah there?s a size difference he was smaller you know, he was smaller. Which one was smaller? Ah, the one standing on the back side, right there on the passenger side. On the passenger side. Yep. Is there anything ah, that you noticed about that second individual at any other point in this sequence of events. (UI) passenger side? Well, not really because so busy paying attention to Mike Brown and the police getting into it right Sure. 17 DET. DET. DET. and you know like so you know that was about the biggest thing I was really looking at and then after I heard the shot like I told you, ya know, like when I saw the officer get out of his car you know like and the officer was headed towards behind then I saw Mike get up off the car coming back you know then hey I turned around I was gone. Alright okay. Let?s back up and talk about one specific thing here. Inside the car, how many times do you think you saw ah, Mike hit the officer? Well, I wouldn?t quote it but I say at least three. I say at least three he don?t, he may have hit him more than that but you know like all I seen is arms going out the window you know what I?m saying so I see his arm going in and out the window you know like in that punching mode, ya know. That?s what I saw. And did you see the officer?s hands doing anything I know you made mention of kind of a defensive posture. Yeah, you know he was tryin? to protect himself looked like to me. It looked like he was tryin? to protect hisself to me, you know. Did you see the officer's hands doing anything else? No, and I'm telling the truth only thing I seen the officer?s hands do is holding his shirt okay I didn?t see the officer hit you know like I can?t say that and that?s what I saw. I didn?t see that okay in the motion I?m the type of person you like really, ya know, like I miss something from the excitement 'cause like you know like I?m trying to get the heck out ofthere you know like ya know. One thing you find out about me if a cops around I'm going the other way you know what I?m saying it just that simple you know. Really and that?s the truth you know. Did you say when you-when you heard that first shot ah, inside the police truck, ah that the smaller individual ran did you say that before? Yeah, both of them took off running. Okay, did you see where the smaller-where the smaller individual went? Yeah he went-he went-he went like that way and Mike kept in the street you know what I?m saying. Okay, and you?re-you?re directing that the smaller individual ran north that would be north? 18 DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. DET. (UI) Mike ran this way and but the little one he ran through the grass and was that way towards the building and Mike ran over that way you know what I?m saying just straight up the street. Okay alright. Other than these two individuals right that we?ve made mention and the Yeah. you see anybody else outside? Yeah, I seen a lady standing here to the left she had on a I remember a white I don?t know if it was a white tee shirt of blouse 'cause I turned around she was right there in her face, ya know what I?m sayin?? Ya know, I was backing up then I seen a white car behind me and then it was another car right before me had turned around before I got up to the you know from the line before I realize this was going on you know what I'm saying like I said when I got there it was all going on. Do you know who any of these people were? No, no sir I don?t know anybody in the complex but Okay. Were the light on, on the squad car? No, huh uh. The light wasn?t on. What kind of car do you drive? Ah, I drive a Is it ah Ah, it got the you know what I?m saying no back doors you have to open and come in through the front doors. A right? Right. Is there anything distinguishing about that vehicle? I got a on the back. 19 DET. SA DET. SA A what? Oh a Uh huh. It?s in the shop now Was that the vehicle you were driving on that day? Yes sir-yes sir. I think you asked my questions. Um, can Ijust kinda take you back through this real quick and ah, again if I say anything that is incorrect correct me okay I just wanna make sure I understand first ah, let me just at the beginning the fact that we had talked to you or your lawyer a few times before this to set up this meeting right but you haven?t actually told us what happened that day until today right? Right, right until today. We haven?t talked about that before? No,this is the first day. This is the first time. Okay, and then also as we started um, this interview there was a period where you and your lawyer asked just to stop it real quick so that you could discuss something. Right-right. and so it was at your request we stopped the tape and then start it again is that right? That's right Say yes. Oh, Yes sir. You have to say yes or no just so the tape will pick it up and of course 20 during ?during while the tape was stopped you and your lawyer had an opportunity to talk no one threatened you or promised you anything or anything like that? No-no-no. No one threatened. just want to establish what happened when the tape was off okay. Uh huh, okay. And also when the tape was off we didn?t talk about this at all about what happened. We waited till be turned the tape back on correct? Right-right. Uh huh. Now my understanding is on August 9th you were ah, in your vehicle and you were coming from West Florissant road east on Canfield. Is that right? I've-I've come from this a way say if this is West Florissant (Ul) I?m coming from towards the airport, that?s west was coming back east yeah, I?m comin? back east. Okay, alright so your coming back generally east on Canfield. Than I turned a left on Canfield was coming up this way Alright and you see the police vehicle which is facing generally the opposite way or west correct? Right. (UI) c'ause I look like he got turned crossed a little bit yeah right and further enough across the street that nobody could get through. Okay alright. So you see his vehicle there you see ah, the individual you have called Mike or Michael at the driver?s side Right, right. and you described it as him tussling with the police officer? Right. You saw him, you saw this Mike throw several punches at the police officer? Well-well, like I said I couldn?t count them but you know like he was throwing punches. 21 Right I?m not looking for a specific number but you saw him throwing punches at the police officer. Right-right. you have described the police officer as leaning backwards in his driver?s seat towards the center console or towards the passenger seat with his arm up trying to protect himself? Right, he was holding onto Mike?s shirt trying to ya know, like block the punches too yeah uh huh. Okay, alright. And again if I say anything that?s not correct then-then feel free to correct me. Alright. And again just to clarify the punches that you saw Mike throwing they looked to like they were towards the officer?s head or face? Ah, yeah it looked like he was punching toward his face yeah yeah. It looked like it to me. And the officers arm were up (Ul) with his arms flat out. Yeah, like this like if somebody trying to punch me you know like I got them with this hand right here because you know I got the shirt up like that and then like I said that went on for a few minutes and then all a sudden I heard POW you know what I?m saying then that?s when the boy took off running. And-and just so think we all understand what your demonstrating here but-but the tape can?t see Oh, okay, alright. so I?m sorta trying to describe that with words what your showing us with actions. okay So when your indicating that the officer is holding his arm up you had your arm in sort of a parallel to your head. Like a blocking. Like his forearm is blocking punches to his face or head? 22 Right, right, uh huh. And you saw that happen multiple times? Yeah, I saw that happen at least, I saw him at least punch at the officer a few times you know what I?m saying I can?t count the number but you know like what went on before I got there I don?t know. Did you hear anything being said between the two of them? No, I wasn?t that close enough to hear them I wasn?t close enough to hear what they was saying. Ya know what I?m sayin?. (UI) I?m sorry. Go ahead. Could you hear if their voices were raised could you hear did you hear any noises indicating that they may have been talking or yelling even if you couldn?t hear what was being said? No ma?am all I seen was tussling yeah. Okay. Alright, and so you hear the Yeah, I heard the shot. And-and it sounded like a gun shot? Yes sir. Alright, and that?s when you see Mike or Michael ah, running and he runs further east then on Canfield generally basically towards the back of the police vehicle and past that? Right, right, uh huh. And then I think you said early on that the police officer got out of his Right. and was moving towards Michael Brown although he wasn?t running at full speed he was moving towards him but not really running towards him is that fair? Yeah, he was like trotting you know in a daze of something to to me now, ya know 23 Before we move too much further on that when you saw the tussling that was happening in the-in the police officer?s vehicle or at the window of the police officer?s vehicle, were there and other vehicles between yours and his? No-no- no the vehicle that was in front of me had turned around and left but um, I was then the first one then in line okay. What time of day I may have missed this? It was in the morning time but you know I can?t say what time of day you know like because when I got to my it be kinda like 10:30 to 11 or something like that you know what I'm saying you know like maybe a little earlier I can?t really recall time. It wasn?t dark out. No, it wasn?t dark. No, I know it was in the morning time because I head over to my to for her. Alright, and so but it was broad daylight? Yeah, it was daylight. Alright, and so you see Michael head east generally on Canfield you say that he goes to a vehicle and stops and leans on it for a short Right. and at that point the police officer is moving towards him. Right. Alright, and then Michael turns and is coming back towards the police Right. Uh huh. I think on point you said he was moving relatively quickly maybe not running but he was moving fast towards the police officer. Uh huh, right. At that point you begin to turn around to leave the area? Yeah-yeah-yeah ya know, like I was turning around right then I was trying to get turned around after the first shot okay. 24 Alright, well, and let me ask you that as you?re turning around you hear additional shots at that time? Right. Okay, and did you actually see those shots or hear them. No, I didn?t really see them I heard them you know yeah. And from the time that you heard the first shot in the police Uh huh. the time that-that you were turning around and heard those additional shots did you hear any other shots in between there? Ah, now, let me-let me explain the way I sit right here when I was the first shot I said oh it?s time for me to get out of here was turning around, Uh huh. I pulled up in the driveway and then that?s I, I looked to the right I see him coming back towards the Right. the time I got back-back up about little bit I hear Pow Pow Pow then hey I was heading on out. So after the first shot in the vehicle the first, the-the first time you hear more shots Right. after Michael Brown is moving back towards the officer. Right. Yeah. okay and then you turn around and you decide to take a different route? Yes sir. Okay. 25 What was going through your mind about what was happening as you were turning around? When I-when first got there honest to God you know like just couldn?t believe I said you know like hey, ya know, like 'cause like itjust blows my mind you know what I?m saying really. What blew your mind? It blew my mind because like I couldn?t believe ya know like ain?t this happen why are people tussling the police just talk to them you know like hey I didn?t do nothing wrong ifl did something you know like Hey, it ain?t worth fighting with the police, ya know what I?m sayin?. I couldn?t been (recording stops) 26