Oklahoma Department of Public Safety Oklahoma Highway Patrol OHP Investigation A A SUPPLEMENTAL FORM 5 my SSIS Page 1 of1 TITLE OF REPORT WARDEN ANITA TRAMMELL INTERVIEW On Monday, June 2, 2014, at 12:42 PM, Warden ANITA TRAMMELL, whose date of birth is was interviewed pursuant to special investigation case number 14-01898l. TRAMMELL has an address of Oklahoma . She has a telephone number of . TRAMMELL has a social security number of TRAMMELL was interviewed by Captain JASON HOLT and Trooper KEVIN LOGAN of the Oklahoma Highway Patrol. The interview was conducted at the Oklahoma Highway Patrol Troop Headquarters located at 3600 North Martin Luther King Avenue, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73111. The interview was digitally audio recorded and was transcribed by Dictate Express. The audio recording and transcription of this interview are included with this report. DATE OF REPORT 06l03/2014 AGENCY CASE 14-O1893l INVESTIGATING TROOPER BADGE 4: TROOP COUNTY mp KEVIN LOGAN 545 HO OKLAHOMA I This report is the property of the Oklahoma Highway Patrol and is loaned to your agency. It and its content are to be considered LAW ENFORCEMENT SENSITIVE and are not to be distributed outside your agency. OKWD 00673 TRANSCRIPT OF RECORDED INTERVIEW OF ANITA TRAMMELL BY TROOPER JASON HOLT TROOPER KEVIN LOGAN CASE NUMBER ON JUNE 2ND, 2014, AT 12:42 PM. IKWD CIV-14-665-F 00674 KWD CIV-14-665-F 00675 LEGEND: MS TRAMMELL: ANITA TRAMMELL MR CINCOTTA: DAVID CINCOTTA CAPTAIN HOLT: CAPTAIN JASON HOLT TROOPER LOGAN: TROOPER KEVIN LOGAN CAPTAIN HOLT: This is Captain Jason Holt, J-A-S-O-N, H-O-L-T, of the Oklahoma Department of Public Safety, Oklahoma Highway Patrol. Today?s date is June 2nd, 2014. The time is approximately I am present at the Troop headquarters in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma and present in the room with me is Trooper Kevin Logan, Warden Anita Trammell and Department of Corrections general counsel David Cincotta. This interview is being conducted pursuant to case number 14?018981 regarding the execution that took place at the Oklahoma State Penitentiary on Okla-?on April 29th, 2014. Trooper Logan, please state and spell your name for the recording. TROOPER LOGAN: Kevin Logan. L-O-G-A-N. CAPTAIN HOLT: Warden Trammell, please state and spell your name for the recording. MS TRAMMELL: Anita Trammell. CAPTAIN HOLT: Mr. Cincotta, please state and spell your name for the recording. David Cincotta. CAPTAIN HOLT: Warden Trammell, are you aware that this interview is being recorded and may be reduced to a typed official record at a later date? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. If you would, let?s start out, just so we can work our KWD CIV-14-665-F 00676 way towards that day in a chronological order, could you walk us through?4 know that we?ve got some things that start 30 days out. Can you walk as through everything that?that takes place or that~?what processes start when a date is originally set? MS TRAMMELL: Are we talking about specifically CAPTAIN HOLT: Specifically MS TRAMMELL: Uh, Lockett? CAPTAIN HOLT: Yes, specifically for Lockett. MS TRAMMELL: Okay. Um, we received the order set the execution date 'on January 22nd, 2014 with execution date set of March 20th, 2014. Well, if I could, can I just give all the chronological order of the legal proceedings or do you want me to go??would that be okay? CAPTAIN HOLT: Yeah, that?d be fine. MS TRAMMELL: Okay. CAPTAIN HOLT: That?d be fine if you wanna do that first. MS TRAMMELL: Okay. So the execution date was set on March the 20th. On March the 18th 2014, I received an order from the Court of Criminal Appeals vacating the execution date that was set for March the 20th and it was reset for April 22nd. So on April the 21st, we received an order from the Oklahoma Supreme Court giving a stay of ex?execution. Then onu?that was the 21st-?okay April the 22nd, we got a exec-executive order from the Governor to reset the execution date. On the Court of Criminal Appeals received an order denying application for stay and then on April the 29th, 2014 was the third date that was set for the execution. The final date, which you should have all those documents. CAPTAIN HOLT: Mm-hmm, and they said that the 25th when they denied the stay. Would that be correct? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah, either that or the Governor set it on seven days. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Seven days from the 22nd? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: When she issued her executive order? MS TRAMMELL: Uh?huh. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Which was the same day as Warner?s and then that foil-- that was a Friday? It had to have been a Thursday cause that was the date that was supposed to have the execution and then that following Monday, I guess, on the 25th, then we got the?you know. you guys know everything that happened in the newspapers and all but where they denied the stay and then we got the-~of course the execution was set for the 29th, CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, was Warner?s always set for the 29th? I MS TRAMMELL: No, no. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, his MS TRAMMELL: His CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: His was-his was originally set??we got his order around the same time that we got Lockett?s. His was originally scheduled a week after Lockett. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. In March? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Originally. MS TRAMMELL: Yes, so all of these dates apply to him as well to some extent and can?t--you know I?d have to go back and check the CAPTAIN HOLT: That?s fine. MS TRAMMELL: I just checked Lockett?s. KWD CIV-14-665-F 00677 CAPTAIN HOLT: At.? MS TRAMMELL: Okay, so this was unique at the very beginning. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: 80, but what-what we always do or what I do is when i receive that order, regardless if its Lockett's or someone that we?ve done in the past. I get the order, I use the old fashioned calendar for suspense on my date and I write the date on my calendar and then I back up a month, maybe six weeks and I put, you know, a note for myself to schedule an exec--or the and strap down. Usually I get with the and the- and we try to accommodate everyone on the day because people have to come in on their days off and overtime and that sort of thing. So, and then-then I put out the memo stating when it?s gonna be but what I did?-on 1/30, put out a memo setting the execution date and I set it for February the 12th. 80 originally it was??the execution was scheduled for March the-- let me look here and make sure--the 20th, right? Yes. 80 scheduled the 30 day notification on February the 12th. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: So that gave us a little bit more than 30 days. And it was scheduled for 9 o?clock. CAPTAIN HOLT: Did you have it? MS TRAMMELL: Yes Sir. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I did and l--you should have the documentation of that and again ifl could just bounce one more thing and then I?ll move toward. On?of course we?ve got the stays and all that--but when it was rescheduled, I had another meeting with both of those two offenders on 4/7 to ensure if there was any changes on their on'ginal 30 day packet because that?s his visitors and telephone contacts and KWD 00678 KWD CIV-14-665-F 00679 the property and burial arrangements and witnesses to the CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: advisors, all that. 80 things could change in that amount of time. CAPTAIN HOLT: Let me just ask you before I forget. So-so you do your original 30 day notification meeting with the offender 30 days prior to his MS TRAMMELL: Execution. CAPTAIN HOLT: date. MS TRAMMELL: At least 30 days, cause it--well normally the case manager, not normally, it always happens. The case manager, Jessica Smith, and you talked to her. When I set that 30 day??she had already?she has already met with that offender. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: She has that paperwork ready for us. Ready for me and there?s a group of people there with me and have the sign in sheet. you should have it as well, that attends. So she?s already done her homework, as has he, and then I just go ever?over everything and confirm it with the offender on the 30 day. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. and so anytime that that?s reset, there?s nothing that states that he has to have a null--another full 30 day notification. You?ve already done it once. MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: go back and update it. MS TRAMMELL: Yeah I just went back. I did n?t have all the people in the room with me. I had--it was myself an-, Jessica, the notary because I told-~I was told he was wanting to change his person that?s gonna get his personal property and that has to be notarized so I had her available and I believe that was it. KWD CIV-14-665-F 00680 CAPTAIN HOLT: So once you do it one time, you just update MS TRAMIVIELL: Yeah CAPTAIN HOLT: the stays go. MS TRAMIVIELL: You don?t have to do it again. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I just felt like this is the first time I?ve been involved in a stay and I just felt like, because of the time frame, that I needed to give both of those guys that courtesy. Although they both were very upset. It was kind of shocking to me. CAPTAIN HOLT: Upset with what? MS TRAMMELL: But they were both upset that I pulled them out of their cell to come down and meet with me and thinking back on it, I think a lot of that had to do with just them being upset that because the execution date was reset. You know, they were on a roller coaster. There was a lot of that. It was notjust the offender, but the victims were on a roller coaster, especially Lockett?s and then of course the staff as well. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAIVIIVIELL: 80. Okay so anyway, I met with ?em on 4I7. Both of ?em and I did make some changes on Lockett?s--or he asked for some changes and then I went back and asked him. He never asked for--originally??for a spiritual advisor, so I asked him if, you know, if that was still the case or if he wanted any spiritual advisors and then his meal. I don?t know if you guys looked at that but he wanted this big elaborate meal from Pete?s that would cost a lot of money and he didn?t, you know he was real stubborn, he didn?t wanna make any changes if I wasn?t gonna do what he asked, so, anyway. That was pretty much that CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. 7 TRAMMELL: Okay, so go back?-oh, did we do the training? CAPTAIN HOLT: Go ahead. MS TRAMMELL: Okay. So originally it was scheduled for 3/20. 80 policy says you meet with the staff within a two week time frame, so I met with staff originally on 3/6 at 1:30 in my office. It always starts out in my of?ce and that is the staff assignments and I had 18 staff in attendance and you should have their sign in sheet I on that. We cover?~do you want me to talk about what all we talk about? CAPTAIN HOLT: Please. MS TRAMMELL: Well. we cover the staging process. We talk about the victims. We talk about the offender witnesses, his attorneys, his-his family members. We talk about the dignitaries in attendance. We talk about the media and then just logistics like the vehicles and prepping unit and execution chamber and anything else that may come up. The of?ce always communicated with Jessica on the witnesses cause I?so I never knew what witnesses for the victim?s family would be there. So I always asked those questions. There was one execution that??I didn?t know about it till after the fact, but a family member didn?t get to go in and witness it because we had representatives. Two from the office and two from victim?s services and they felt like they needed to be in there over the family and I said ?That?s never going to happen again.? So I make sure of that and we probably can?t finalize it during this meeting, but we talk about it. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Talk about vehicles was a big deal. We had to make sure we had enough vehicles to process-to go through the process. We?d go over the execution assignments. I had the? in there. In the past, I chaired that and I?d tum it over to - and we would go over it line by line. Title, sometimes I?ve seen titles were incorrect or misspellings. just want it to be accurate so we go KWD 00681 9 10 11 12 over that and then when we get through with that, we adjourn from there and then some of us go down to the execution chamber, not everyone. It?s just the people that are in the chamber, which is myself and depends on if I have At this time I didn?t have either~either one of my- but I had-fill in. Do you want me to go over the names and all that? Detailed or no? CAPTAIN HOLT: You can go ahead and tell us who?who you had assigned at that training meeting. Did everybody that was involved in the execution, were they the staff that was already assigned and went through that training? MS Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: But I had some new people assigned. which was- -. I worked the duties of the_, which .filled out this form here. Execution log. This wa. duty and i think you?ve talked to CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: So this was new t. This was very important, very important. And then had a unit manager that talked to- and that wa- ?rst time that. had ever done it. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. and then I had that was on the phone to the Governor's office and that?s the ?rst time. had ever done that as well. And then I had a unit manager Eric Thomas, that was-and this was about his third-that he??his was very important. He was in control of all the staging. He was in front of unit. He wasn?t actuallya?or inside unit--he wasn?t up with us. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: But he was key. All those people were key to make sure KWD 00682 everything happened like it should. CAPTAIN HOLT: And they all made this early training, or this training session prior MS TRAMMELL: Every one of them. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Yes. 80 the first one was on 3/6 and then we went down to the chamber. Of course I had- and he?s been involved and i had the and. just took over as l?m thinking I?m not 100% sure if this was I first one?. done them before though, but a- _l don?t know if. had. Then I had - and I had volunteered to help out with me am. main job was to open the blinds and to turn on the mic and watch, the most important thing, was to watch the left arm and watch the right. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: So we all go down, plus the strap down team and can?t??l mean I?ve got their names as well as you??and we go down there and there was some concern about Lockett. Originally because Lockett?s had made some statements he was going outwith a bang and he was very intelligent. He was very arrogant. He was a manipulator and I didn?t know him that well cause, you know, I was fairly new there. So I didn?t--l hadn't seen those behaviors, although some of the documentation read, I did observer it. But the consensus was at the facility was that we could have some issues with Lockett. Assaulting staff or when we-normally when we bring them out of the execu-?the shower to walk them into the execution chamber, we just let them walk without being cuffed or restrained. And so we decided early on we wasn?t gonna do that with Lockett just because we was afraid he was gonna try to assault a staff or grab or you know, who knows what he might do. So we come up with another plan on him and I have a document. I don?t think you guys have this. I was going through my KWD 00683 OKWD CIV-14-665-F 00684 stuff and I found it and can get a copy of it. It?s a-?see that?s dated March the 9th-? does that look familiar to you? CAPTAIN HOLT: (inaudible response) MS TRAMMELL: I don?t think you have that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Let me see that. MS TRAMMELL: You have? CAPTAIN HOLT: Hmm?mm. I don?t think I have. MS TRAMMELL: It?s an?it?s an elaborate plan of what we're gonna do and I wanted it detailed. ms is on how we were gonna do what we was gonna do and if you noticed the date with that is the 9th. 80 we went down there on the 6th, discussed what we was gonna CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: there was just a little bit of conflict on how we were gonna do it. A little resistance from some of the players involved so- put this in writing and lets do a lot more training so everyone knows exactly what their role is. CAPTAIN HOLT: You say conflict and resistance. I mean, to what parts? I guess define what confl-conflict means. Ms TRAMMELL: Well, So. ldidn?t see this, but I think? -, we interviewed - fairly-fairly young and if it wasn?t I way, I didn?t want it-- you know. It was just a little conflict that we had to work out and we did. We got it all worked out but I had - involved in the process and I think there might have just been a little turf issues. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Because I ha_ at the end of the bed and OKWD 00685 had at the fr--head of the bed and there may have been some problems with that with I think. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: But, that?s why I went back I said "We?re gonna do it, you know, the way it needs to be done for security reasons," so--cause we had him cuffed. We was gonna have him cuffed and then was gonna have? down, I mean - down on the other end to hold his feet down, it he resisted, until we got him strapped down. CAPTAIN HOLT: Was this the final plan that?that you put into place for that date that?s listed on this memo? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah, for the day for the 20th, but of course we didn?t do it like CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: we also had the team suited up. We talked about this. You always have a team on standby if he doesn't come out of his cell, you know, like they should. We have a??we call it the extraction team-but the ones I?ve been involved in the past, they?ve never been suited up, but if they?re going to have to go up there and get that offender out, they?re gonna have to suit up and that?s timely. Takes probably 30 minutes to put on your gear. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: So, I said ets--we need to prepared, you know. If he??if it goes south, they need to be able to get up there quick so that we could proceed like we should, you know, in the time frame. 80, ?cause it?s supposed to start at 6, maybe a minute?second after 6. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: So anyway we come up with that and actually since then, ?2 that?s what we?re gonna do from now onnwell, we?re changing the procedures CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay MS TRAMMELL: was what--that was our plan as to make sure that we had this, the team, suited up and ready to go. So we had a really good meeting, training with this. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: So that-that started at?-well wrote down 1:30, but that?- well I wrote down 1:30 so I guess that's right. And then after we?after that, of course we had a person lay down on the table and we strapped ?em down. We went through everything. We didn?t just say how you was gonna--how we was gonna do it. we did it. Actually, I think it was So we went through that process and then after that I had the strap down team leave and then I went over everything with- and on?-and Eric--on the telephone calls and all of that that we make the staging process and how we do everything. And they-?l made ?em go line by line, just like a basketball coach. and give me the extension numbers and everything so there wouldn?t be mistakes made. So that was at the very beginning. I guess, I wrote down here there was 18 in my office. then we-when we had the strap down team, put 17 staff in attendance and then when we did the staging there was 7, CAPTAIN HOLT: Is the MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: the training, is that something you do before every execu?on? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Yes. KWD 00686 k) CAPTAIN HOLT: How many executions have happened since you?ve been warden at MS TRAMMELL: -. CAPTAIN MS TRAMMELL: The first two I shadowed the and then ~this was my number nine. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. How long have you been at?at MS TRAMMELL: September the 22m. 2012. CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: I?ve CAPTAIN HOLT: each one that you?ve done, this?this training has happened? The 30 day notification that we?ve talked this one? Oh okay. KWD 00687 MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: this is something that happened every time, notjust for MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: That?s every time and I got all the executions somewhere. The first one I was involved in was on November the 6m, 2012. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Do you want this? CAPTAIN HOLT: N0. M8 TRAMMELL: Okay. CAPTAIN HOLT: No that?s okay. MS TRAMMELL: Okay. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay so that?s the 14 TRAMMELL: Well I got a lot more training. HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I got a lot more. CAPTAIN HOLT: Keep going. MS TRAMMELL: Okay, so the ?rst one is on The second one we did was on 3/12 and actually, I wasn't there. I was-l don?t know where was at-?but- - chaired it so that was 3/12. Same process. l-I listed on the sign in sheet. You know the part I faxed you the other day? I found those. I don?t know if you-if you got it originally? CAPTAIN HOLT: Yes, yes we did. Yes we did. MS TRAMMELL: Okay good, okay. So I guess there was just 10 in attendance. I don?t know why. Just people were off, I guess. Okay, afterthat then we trained on 3/1 O?ul mean 4/10, same process. I had 11 in attendance, then 10 in attendance 'in the chamber and then 5 when we went over the execution protocols. Then we met on 4/25, 19 was in attendance in my office, 14 on the strap down. Okay that was on a Friday?whoops, sorry. That was on a Friday before and then we did it again on the Monday and of course this was a lot different then, because we knew we was having two executions so that involved a lot more planning. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And then when I went back and looked and found that those two forms, we had additional training on 4/16, 4/21, 4/14. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Okaytraining. CAPTAIN HOLT: Do--so you get all-[this training going, which it sounds like a lot and I think you made a statement a little while ago that this is the first execution that you?ve had where there was a stay. ls?is that correct? KWD CIV-14-665-F 00688 15 TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. How~how did that affect your teams preparedness as you went through those steps or did it? MS TRAMMELL: No, I don?t think it did. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Well just got a little?little bit muddied a little bit. Just, you know, ?cause I had to go back and write all these time frames down. but no. I mean every time, for example when we did the strap down, I mean we had someone lay down. We strapped ?em in. We went through from the beginning to the end on how how that process works. I made the Eric and- and everyone involved just go from the beginning to the end with extension numbers and what they do and time frames. ?Cause we had some snafus as we went a long, prior to this one that we?we learnt from CAPTAIN HOLT: You said--you mean in executions prior to Lockett?s? Not on.. MS TRAMMELL: Yeah, just little things that no one knew about. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Just little things. For example, the staging, the timing on the staging and I think I told you that the? that was of on ca--wait. I think you met well wasn?t. outside the facility that one day? CAPTAIN HOLT: Mm-hmm MS TRAMMELL: Well anyway, - left. - back now but when I come to work--let me back up to OSP. Everyone knew their job very well but they didn?t know anybody else?s job and it wasn?t in writing. Everything was real secretive and so we??and I gave it to you, well that??you?ve got mine there, but so we had everyone write down what they did. Wen KWD 00689 - and asked I to write -up so. did and I thought, this is not good. This is not good. So, we went back and l-we tweaked that so everybody knows what the other person is supposed to do and you have it in black and white. You need to have that anyway, CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Well I kind of lost my train of thought there. CAPTAIN HOLT: Part of what I, through our other interviews and-and then also through your duties as they were presented to us, is a lot of monitoring. MS TRAMMELL: Mm-hmm CAPTAIN HOLT: By medical and mental health and we know that that took place throughout that time. What-what were you told in the weeks leading up to the 29th about his-his health, his mental health? What were they reporting back to you? MS TRAMMELL: Well it just went, it kinda went back and forth. They were- there was one memo and you should have it from Dr. Stem (ph. sp.) that they were really concerned. It was Dr. Kirby I believe that was really concerned about his behavior and his attitude thinking that he could be dangerous and you know, be assaultive to staff. From~fr0m that to he?s accepting of it, you know. just waving that he?s okay. A thumbs up, that sort of thing. Medical, all I ever got from medical was were they said his veins were g-good. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: Did you get that more than once? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And you have it as well. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. KWD 00690 17 10 11 12 13 14 '16TRAMMELL: The last time I got it was on the 25th and they-actually they put ?Warner and Lockett?s veins are good, exclamation mark." CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. You made a statement a little while ago that-that Lockett had made a statement early on that he was gonna go out with a bang. Do MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: where that came from? Who he made that to? MS TRAMMELL: I?m thinking and I don?t think you have a copy of this but you probably need it. This come from the case manager, Jessica. This was after the Governor issued the executive order. ?Said he was gonna be contacting his attorney. Offender Lockett said he felt that he was being played with and he wasn?t going to keep just moving back and forth from a high-max cell to a regular cell. Offender Lockett did state that in the event that he had to move, his lawyers say that the Governor overstepped her boundaries. He wasn?t moving and that he would show them what it felt like to deal with a then she put stars?-?that didn?t have anything to lose." But prior to that though, I had got word that he had made some statements like that but as far as telling you CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: You can have that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: didn?t--on the time frames. You know those are the formal trainings, but I also meet with the well or-, the - is there and we make the contacts. Usually in. does. In this case it was- to the executioners, the EMT and the doctor. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I made the contacts myself to the pharmacist KWD 00691 18 (OKWD IV-14-665-F 00692 CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: can I say one more thing? CAPTAIN HOLT: Sure. MS TRAMMELL: In the past, when I first got there, was heavily involved. The previous warden relied on the and, I mean, they kind of had a team that was the?the warden, the That was the inner circle as far as the execution portion of it. Of course the warden left and?and then our Didn?t want- involved as much as they were in the past, so we had to regroup. Which, they got it signed, they contacted the medical examiner. I mean they did a lot. 80. we took over, I so I had to make sure that that was done, taken to the doctor, get it back,? and that sort of thing. So we had to get everything finalized on that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. At what point~at what point did you find out that there was gonna be two executions the same day? IVIS I guess a week out when we got that from the Governor. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay MS TRAMMELL: I mean. I read that and I thought does that have-you know, am reading that right? And ljust really didn?t think that was gonna be the case but it was. CAPTAIN HOLT: Did that cause any big changes in?in preparing for there to be two in one day? MS TRAMMELL: It did and we have the-wrote this up. I think you probably have a copy of it--just mainly the staging process because we have, you know, we have the same locations for the victims families and the attorneys and all that so we 19 make sure that we were all on the same page. So it caused a little bit more stress for all the staff. Although on Lockett, it really worked out good because Lockett didn?t have any family witnessing except for his two attorneys and Warner didn?t have any Victims? families so it?s kind of reversed there but that worked-that worked to our benefit there. But we had to get everything lined out as far as the media. It was just the logistics of everything. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And with the medical examiner. You know we had to make sure that they were on time, which one time they weren?t there on time on one of the executions so from that I learned to make sure that we get their cell phone number, cause he was just lost. Because we had to get that body out before you start on the next one and if they wasn?t there and what was we gonna do with the body, so we had to get all that worked CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: advance. CAPTAIN HOLT: Anything else?anything else before we go to seven days prior to and what?and what normally comes in, anything else going on? You know, eight days and further out? - MS TRAMMELL: Well 30-30 days out also after we get the?~meet with the offender, we send out letters and don?t?l don?t-I?ve got copies of them. I don?t think I I provided them to you??to the dignitaries and the, you know, the judge and the DA and the Sherriff and all of those people?out of the county of conviction. And then all of his family members that he put down to the seven day extra for visiting and for witnessing the execution. We have to send out several letters so we had-we did that twice actually. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. KWD CIV-14-665-F 00693 20 TRAMMELL: So we do that. I guess that?s about CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I can think of. CAPTAIN HOLT: So at seven days out, what-what starts to transpire when you get seven days out? MS TRAMMELL: At some point, and I don?t know if it?s exactly seven days, will go back and confirm with the executioners and the doctor and the phlebotomist and make, you know, we?d make sure lid touch base with the pharmacist. In the past it?s beenuwe?ve - so that was kind of a different process. so but this was a little bit easier. We have to fill out the chain of custody, get everything ready. What?-and let me back ups?once we start this 60 days out, t?I always create a master file and I just put it in something like this and any documentation get, ljust put it in CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: that we?ll have it but we do that on seven days out. Of course we just get everything ready for the grounds. Make sure everything's ready at the facility level. They start, medical starts seeing the offender daily. 80 does mental health. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Any reports back to you of anything changing MS TRAMMELL: Yeah I get CAPTAIN HOLT: mental health wise? MS TRAMMELL: then we start that log book too. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: You know, maybe we start that 30 days out. KWD 00694 21 KWD 00695 CAPTAIN HOLT: Did you get anything within seven days that was different for Lockett as far as mental or physical health MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: The~the seven day log. I?ve read the-the protocol on basically it says everything. What?s your understanding of what is supposed to go in that seven day log? What?s-what?s supposed to be logged down? MS TRAMMELL: That?s when I move the offender to the high max cell, which I always thought when I come on board, I seen that we move ?em to a high max cell. And youive guys have seen the high max cell and I thought it doesn?t makes sense to me because the visibility is so low. I guess when they originally did that, it was for the safety of the staff I assume. but anything with the offender goes in that seven day log. But they keep that log book. It would-it would be up in the control room, so visits, phone calls, that sort of thing CAPTAIN HOLT: Does your staff, do they receive training on what should be on that seven day log and what shouldn?t be? MS TRAMMELL: No, probably not. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Ifthey do, it?s from the I haven?t been involved in that training. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. You?you talked about and it even says on the duties ?Ensure offender is moved to a high max cell.? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: My understanding is that Lockett was not. MS TRAMMELL: Right. CAPTAIN HOLT: Could you explain that decision process and why that was made? 22 KWD CIV-14-665-F 00696 MS TRAMMELL: Originally he was, for the first execution, he was moved in there. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And then the second oneu-when was that supposed to be, think we moved him in there then too but I can?t swear to it. I could be wrong. But the third one, we?we just have one high max cell and we had two CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: execution so that?s where that addendum come into play that you have a copy of. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: So, you know, we talked to the director about it. To me, it didn?t make sense to move them to high max anyway, but, so that was the plan but we had those?those two??we designated two cells. Normally it?s just one cell. Of course, we didn?t? move them over there till the day off, but we did?-l think?-Lockett was single cell though, so that wasn?t an issue. Warner I?m pretty sure he had a double, had a cell-cell mate so we moved him out. We wanted to treat him as it he was in high max and you--he had a cell mate, CAPTAIN HOLT: So was Warner moved to high max cell? MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: So neither one was? MS TRAMMELL: We didn?t move him. No, neither one. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: What were the benefits or disadvantages of not having him in a high max cell? MS TRAMMELL: I didn?t see any. 23 CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: No disadvantages. CAPTAIN HOLT: And just so that I?m clear, was there any other reason to not move him other than you had to-?and you since you couldn?t move both of them, you didn?t move any of them? MS TRAMMELL: Right, and the?~one reason for that decision was we didn?t want to give the attorneys any grounds to file on us or?-and I just felt like it was, you know, the right thing to do is to keep them both where they were at. CAPTAIN HOLT: And not to jump around on ya, on?on the 30 day packet, I know it's in there, he asked for a last MS TRAMMELL: Mm?hmm. CAPTAIN HOLT: one of the Italian restaurants there in McAIester?? I MS TRAMMELL: Yeah, yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: Was he offered any other options when you made the determination that you could not fulfill that? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah, it's in writing too. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I mean, he wanted a, you know, that big steak and a bourbon pecan pie. A whole one. Shrimp, all this stuff and I said you know if you just want a steak dinner, we probably could get you one from Western Sizzler and we?ve always, we?ve got steak dinners before for offenders and he just felt like that was fast food. I mean and that?s in writing. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I think you have that. And I'mean, I made other options to him. I tried to, you know, I want him to have a meal but he just wasn?t gonna see it. KWD CIV-14-665-F 00697 24 CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Did he have access to all the meals and drinks for the last seven days prior to the execution that he normally MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: other time? MS TRAMMELL: Absolutely yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. What?s?~do they have a routine feeding schedule there? MS TRAMMELL: Mm-hmm. CAPTAIN HOLT: How many times a day is it? MS TRAMMELL: Three. CAPTAIN HOLT: Three times a day? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: So breakfast lunch and dinner? IVIS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay and he was offered those to the best of your knowledge? MS TRAMMELL: Yes, CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Every meal. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. DO you know how?how that?s documented? Is it documented that he is offered a meal? Is it documented that he-that he ate, that he didn?t eat? Do you know what that documentation process is? I MS TRAMMELL: I think it?I think because you asked for that, I?m pretty sure you did, so we went back to look and it wasn?t documented - CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: it should?ve been. KWD CIV-14-665-F 00698 25 KWD CIV-14-665-F 00699 CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I did notice that. If he refused, I think it was documented, if he refused, but I don?t think that was documented like it should?ve been and that?ll go back to that training that we?ll learn from this. CAPTAIN HOLT: Do you know if it?d be documented anywhere else other than those seven day logs? MS TRAMIVIELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I don?t think it would be. Although, now we?re doing an incident report and there may be incident reports. What we?we do incident reports when an offender refuses a meal, but~-so that-that and I think you probably have that, but as far as him just accepting his meal, we wouldn?t have that documentation. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMIVIELL: Unless it?s in the log book and it was some, but it wasn?t like it should?ve been. I CAPTAIN HOLT: There was, in?in some of the second set of documentation that we requested from you, there is a piece of paper in there where he requested some canteen items on the 24th of April. Chips, look like pop, some candy bars. Do you know if he received those items from the canteen that he requested? MS TRAMIVIELL: For what day was it? CAPTAIN HOLT: It was dated the 24th of April. MS TRAMMELL: And that was in the log book? CAPTAIN HOLT: No, it?s not in the log book. It?s on a??oh that?s what I?m looking for?? TROOPER LOGAN: While he?s looking for that, in the cell would Lockett have had any other food or water aside from the three meals that they would?ve 26 brought him? MS TRAMMELL: For canteen. TROOPER LOGAN: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. TROOPER LOGAN: So if they?re brought the canteen Items, that? just sit in the cell MS TRAMMELL: The canteen? TROOPER LOGAN: Yeah. MS Yeah. TROOPER LOGAN: Until he ate that. MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. TROOPER LOGAN: Okay, okay and as far as like water goes, do they have?4 mean we saw like the sink there?~does?do those faucets kinda shoot up into a water fountain or something like that? MS TRAMMELL: No, they just have to put their cup underneath it. TROOPER LOGAN: Okay so he?s got a cup in MS Yeah, yeah they?re TROOPER LOGAN: well. MS TRAMMELL: Yes. They should have. They?re all-~l mean most of the offenders have-have cups. You know, most of the drinks are in Styrofoam cups so you can keep those, TROOPER LOGAN: Okay. HOLT: That sheet of MS TRAMMELL: but I can find out. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, that sheet of paper was listed right behind-~and I don't know what order, I mean we made copies in the same order that you gave it to KWD CIV-14-665-F 00700 27 us??was right behind a letter from the federal public defender?s office to your office. It says ?I?d like to request a meeting with Lockett on April 218*. Thank you for your assistance.? And its right in that same?-so I don?t know if that?s something that he made during that visit? MS TRAMMELL: I don?t know either. I couldn?t??do you want me CAPTAIN HOLT: I?ll-I?ll make a copy of it for you. MS TRAMMELL: Okay, yeah and I?ll find out and get it back to you tomorrow. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, MS TRAMMELL: Well I gotta be back up here tomorrow. It?d be VVednesday CAPTAIN HOLT: Are they allowed to make requests, canteen item requests, seven days prior-from the seven days prior to? MS TRAMMELL: I think, I?d have to look to verify that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. And then MS TRAMMELL: I mean they do have a list of what they want for their-for their canteen list for the high max. Not the high max, but the holding cell. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Yes, if you could find out if?if he got that or if he had any other items from the canteen. MS TRAMMELL: Okay. CAPTAIN HOLT: In the seven days prior to. When you talked about not moving Lockett to the high max, was that approved by the director as well? MS TRAMMELL: Mm?hmm. Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, so that was a decision that you made with his approval. MS TRAMMELL: In Conjunction with him, yeah. KWD CIV-14-665-F 00701 28 CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Find my place here, since we?re jumping around. Any other, was there anything else that you did other than the trainings that you?ve already went over, to ensure that each person knew exactly what their duties were that day? Any other meetings with-with specific personnel? Any other trainings that you haven?t went over with? MS TRAMMELL: I met with the key staff as far as the staging a lot because we, after the morning meetings, those staff are in there anyways so we sit down and covered everything. We talked about any issues that we may have and that?s not documented. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Were you ever advised that Lockett had been possibly hoarding medication? MS TRAMMELL: The day of the scheduled execution and after he cut himself, I heard mention of that and then when I went back and did a follow up, that?? they couldn?t substantiate that, I CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, do you know who you heard it from? MS TRAMMELL: No, no I don?t. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. So you said they couldn?t substantiate. Did MS TRAMMELL: lfollow, Iwent back and followed CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I think, I?m not 100% sure but, l-l think I talked to Dr. Stem about it. About his medication and he had been-~see I?m not 100% sure I?m accurate on this--but I thought she said he had been off of medication for a while. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okaythe 29th that you were MS TRAMMELL: Yeah, I?m thinking maybe he even said that. I don?t?? seems like someone told me that he said he took some medication. CAPTAIN HOLT: That Lockett said that? CIV-14-665-F 00702 TRAMMELL: Yeah, but lim not 100% sure like I said. CAPTAIN HOLT: Do you know if they did any testing at IHCC to determine whether or not that he had? MS TRAMMELL: No, I don?t. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. The EMT paramedic and the physician, who reached out to them when it was time to initially start preparing for the first execution as far as making notification, making sure they were good with that date? MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Did [was .the person that continued to have contact with them through the stays MS TRAMMELL: Yeah, yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: the final? Whose~whose duty is it to ensure that- that their licenses are up to date? MS TRAMMELL: Policy says CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Who would have been-? in this case? MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Do you know if. at the two week-4 believe protocol says two weeks~~do you know if .checked and obtained copies of their licenses prior to them performing the execution? MS TRAMMELL: i don?t know it-did. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Would that be something that .would have got a cop--what?s the normal process? I mean, how is that normally done in other executions. DO they call, get copies? Is it a verbal? MS TRAMMELL: I think it?s just-I think it-we l no, it?s not a verbal--we have? we had copies cause when I went back and checked the EMT, I mean, it was in our KWD 00703 30 KWD 00704 file and then we got the-the doctor filled in. .wasn?t the one that was originally scheduled so I got a copy of. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, do you know what day you got a copy of?-okay. MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: Prior-prior to the execution? After? MS TRAMMELL: Yes CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. The EMT, you say you had it prior, do you know if it was, you had in the file, from this execution or was it in a file from a previous execution that they have participated in? MS TRAMMELL: Well I think it expires annually. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: So, I mean, it was-it was in the ?le where we keep all the con?dential numbers. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: So. CAPTAIN HOLT: Do you know--if you were to use the same paramedic for several executions, would you check their license each time an execution came up or just one time during that year? MS TRAMMELL: No, we should check it each time. CAPTAIN HOLT: Each time? MS TRAMMELL: By policy, you?re supposed to check it each time. CAPTAIN HOLT: Oh okay. And I know we?ve asked and answered for the physician, but for the paramedic, you?re not sure if that was checked prior to this one or if that was a check that had happened prior to that person doing another one? MS TRAMMELL: Yes, I don't know. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. 31 TRAMMELL: I just know we had it. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Is that question better suited for the- - Would?wouid I have got-would - have been the person to obtain that if it was to be obtained? MS TRAMMELL: I don?t know if .would?-if I knew that. was supposed to. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I mean, policy says so that was-wasn?t- normal role to do that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I mean really, that-that probably should be mine. I should own that one instead of. so there was some mistakes made, obviously, so I might as well just own that one instead of putting it on CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: That's how I see it. CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: Cause I?m ultimately responsible anyways. CAPTAIN HOLT: Were-did you find out. or do you know it both the physician and the EMT were currently licensed at the time of the execution? MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, but-but do you now know that they were licensed? MS TRAMMELL: Yes, yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, that?s what I was asking. Okay, so both were current at the time of execution? MS TRAMMELL: Yes, yes they were. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Any other?any other mental health, physical health, La.) KWD 00705 KWD 00706 any other observations made by any of your staff up until the 29th that you think we shOuld know about or that we haven?t asked about that you think are important? MS TRAMMELL: I CAPTAIN HOLT: Observations they made that they told you about? MS TRAMMELL: Well it just concerns me about medical and their observation on his~his veins because right off the bat, the EMT, when - always goes to the left arm and - looked at it and. said immediately that you?re an intervenes drug user and he said ?Yes, yes- I am," and so how?if- recognized that. how come they didn?t? Don?t know. I mean, it?s not .the first time we?ve had issues with our medical department on that. And then mental health, nothing. I mean he just was on a roller coaster and they just documented his behavior. CAPTAIN HOLT: What-4n protocol, it states that it?s the warden?s duties to determine what drugs are to be used in the?in the execution. What factors in this case for Lockett lead to those three drugs being used? MS TRAMMELL: The pharmacists that we had had the phenobarbital and there was a lot of issues with Missouri execution and so that the pharmacist that we was using refused to give the drugs to the department. Refused to deal with the department so we were out of??l mean, we couldn?t? get the phenobarbital. CAPTAIN HOLT: Was that between the-the last execution before Lockett and Lockett?s? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. Yes it was. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And that?s some of the reasons for the stays, you know, that-that was happening. So in the meantime, the policy was revised with the drug protocols in there. You know, there was several of them listed. I think ?ve or six and 33 they looked at other state?s protocols so I didn?t make the decision on the drug. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay and that?s my next question. What?what other agencies play a role in preparing for an execution and?and what is their role? MS TRAMMELL: l?l--all I can say is that I didn?t write the policy. I don?t know anything about the drugs. I was just-?l?m told the drugs that?s gonna be used. I didn?t pick the pharmacist?pharmacy. Didn?t even know which pharmacy it was till it was determined. 80 I?m not sure how that?how we even secure the pharmacist. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Does that come from another agency? MS TRAMMELL: I don?t? think so. CAPTAIN HOLT: You think that MS TRAMMELL: I don?t but it possibly could. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. What other agenciesmare there any other agencies that play a role in preparing for an execution other than MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: What agencies are those? MS TRAMMELL: The Attorney General?s office. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I mean they?re?they're instrumental with the victims. They have a couple of staff that bring the victims down. Of course they deal with courts as well, Court of Criminal Appeals and so they?re involved if there?s gonna be a stay or of there?s any question on the legality of the execution as far as if we may have a stay. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. We?ll come back to that. MS TRAMMELL: And they were involved in writing the addendum. They helped with that, provided assistance with that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. We?ll come back to that. Let me-let me move on and we?ll move on and we?ll come back to that in a little while. The??you say the KWD CIV-14-665-F 00707 34 10 11 12 13 physician was a fill in?-can you elaborate on-on that? MS TRAMMELL: The doctor that was scheduled wasn?t able to be there. I just-l just remember, I went downstairs to go to the restroom cause I went down there early and I wanted to go to the restroom and .was coming in. And the staff told - I was gonna have to go through a shake down and I was just irate. l?m just glad I happened to be down there or. may havejust walked out. I said no, I doesn?t have to go through the shake down. I mean, I don't know why they said thatjust because I don?t know. So anyway, took - up. .said ?I?m just filling in anyway. I wasjust--l don?t know why I?m even, why I even, you know, agreed to do it." HOLT: Is this the day of you?re talking about? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. 4:45. Well or 5:00 or 5:15 or whatever time. got there. CAPTAIN HOLT: How many days prior to did you know that-was filling in? MS TRAMMELL: ldon?t remember. I mean, I don?t know if-told me. He may have and surely he did but I HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: say for certainty. Cause we usually have to doctors that--to do the executions, HOLT: Okay. And .not one of those two? MS TRAMMELL: No, HOLT: Okay. Do you ever reach out--does the physician, EMT, the executioners, any combination thereof-do you ever reach out to them prior to an execution for any type of training purposes or are their training-45 it kind of right there, that day when they get there? MS TRAMMELL: When they get there. KWD 00708 CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, so you don't ever reach out prior to MS TRAMMELL: No, no. CAPTAIN HOLT: ..for any type of training purposes. MS TRAMMELL: No. I never have. CAPTAIN HOLT: And they?re not involved with any training that we had already talked about? MS TRAMIVIELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: No they?re not. an the-you talk about? - Do you do that yourself or?? MS TRAMMELL: I have? the one that wrote it CAPTAIN HOLT: up. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay and then MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN Hon: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: You also talked about a little earlier that in the past you?ve used two different pharmacies. What was the purpose of using two different pharmacies? MS TRAMMELL: That?s the way it was when I started. We used one for two drugs and one for the other drug. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I don?t know how that happened like that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. So there?s no specific reason that you know of. It?s KWD CIV-14-665-F '00709 3 6 just that?s how it was done in-in the past? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: And this time all the-all the drugs came from one pharmacy? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay and you didn?t pick that pharmacy? That was picked by somebody else? MS TRAMMELL: Right. I did get some calls asking if I know--you know there was a pharmacy in the location asked if knew-?and I did call that pharmacist and?cause I knew -just wasn?t interested so, they asked me to help them. See ifl can find?~anyway after that, I mean, I didn't have any resources out there so they took care of it themselves. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Okay. We?ll take a break real quick. We?re gonna go off recording at my request at 1:38. KWD 00710 7 *akak'k?? TRANSCRIPT OF RECORDED INTERVIEW OF ANITA TRAMMELL BY TROOPER JASON HOLT TROOPER-KEVIN LOGAN CASE NUMBER ON JUNE 2014, AT 12:42 PM. DKWD CIV-14-665-F 00711 KWD CIV-14-665-F 00712 LEGEND: MS TRAMMELL: ANITA TRAMMELL MR. CINCOTTA DAVID CINCOTTA CAPTAIN HOLT: CAPTAIN JASON HOLT TROOPER LOGAN: TROOPER KEVIN LOGAN CAPTAIN HOLT: This is Captain Jason Holt. We are going back on recording at The same four people are still in the room and we will proceed with the interview. Warden, could you please explain the-the role of the AG's office in preparing for an execution. What all-what all do they do? MS TRAMMELL: They send us the-the document on the order for the well they send us originally the, I guess it?s an act to set the execution date and then we get the 60 days from them. I guess we get it from the courts too but I?m not sure, but I know we get it from them and then they work real closely like I said with Jessica on the victims as well as with my secretary on the staff from the office that? be down. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: So. CAPTAIN HOLT: Do they play a role in determining which drugs will be used? MS TRAMMELL: I?m?l don?t know. I would-l would venture to say they did. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: In this one. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: The other ones it was already determined ?cause we had the drugs. The Phenobarbital and the other two. 2 OKWD CIV-14-665-F 00713 CAPTAIN HOLT: Does-ere there people within D.O.C. that play a role in determining what drugs would be used this time? MS TRAMMELL: The only think I know, and I don?t know that answer for sure. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I don?t even know if the office does. I just know that the office and our legal division was working on writing the-the new policy that had all the drugs listed and they were working with other state agencies. I assume, because we had Florida?s in there and Ohio, I think, and a couple more states, maybe Texas. CAPTAIN HOLT: When it was determined this time what drugs would be used was there training on what to expect from the new drug? The first drug? MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: The Director told me though the day of the execution, he told me how that?~how an offender normally reacts and the-the process. How it?s so much slower. It?s the first information I received on that. CAPTAIN HOLT: That was the morning of? MS TRAMMELL: Well, the day of. CAPTAIN HOLT: Day of. MS TRAMMELL: Yeah, when the Director got there we talked about CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: Because he had used that drug in Arizona. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: So he knew. CAPTAIN HOLT: Did you have an idea on how long it would take? Was it KWD CIV-14-665-F 00714 talked about time wise, how long it would take for that drug to take effect? MS TRAMMELL: No. When the Director and I talked, he said that?normally, the ones that I've always been involved with Phenobarbital. I mean 5 minutes and the offenders been gone. You know it?s just a really short process. You know and the policies say after the five minutes, then if the offenders unconscious then you push the other two drugs, you know, in the order that they?re listed. And he s--you know the Director told me that it's possible after the first five minutes the inmate may not be unconscious and so we had a conversation about that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Then I went back to the chamber and shared, you know, we did some training with all the staff involved. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, okay. And we?ll go over that in just a minute. MS TRAMMELL: Okay. CAPTAIN HOLT: Chronological purposes MS TRAMMELL: Okay. CAPTAIN HOLT: Part of the documentation that we received from D.O.C. was an affidavit of Anita Trammell that you signed. State of Oklahoma, County of Pittsburgh. That?s a copy. Who prepared that document? MS TRAMMELL: didn?t prepare it. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I assume that, because I think it come from our legal department, think~ think it's my assumption that the office prepared it. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: But I could be wrong. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Who presented that to you? MS TRAMMELL: My secretary. She printed it up. CAPTAIN HOLTemail? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: Do you know who emailed it to her? MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: Who?who?s your secretary? MS TRAMMELL: Melody Ensley [ph. sp.] CAPTAIN HOLT: How do you spell her last name? MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I think. CAPTAIN HOLT: Had~have you signed any documents like this on any execution prior to this one? MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Do you know the reason that it was presented to you this time? MS TRAMMELL: I didn?t originally when I signed it and then after I signed it, you know I just?4 glanced over it. I mean, in hindsight, I wouldn?t have signed it. I wouldn?t do it again. Absolutely not, but I did sign it and then a few minutes later, she- -my secretary said that?~or it may have been Regina, one of the twowthat Gerry Massey wanted a copy of it to release it to media. I said ?No. We?re not?~that?s gonna be released to the media. Absolutely not,? and I thought how in the world does he even know about it. I don?t know and so I was?well, they revised it and sent it back and then-then the Director was there so I was telling the Director about it and he was not happy with it at all because there?s some things in in here that says I'm aware of and I?m really not, so. CAPTAIN HOLT: So the form that you signed today, can you state today KWD CIV-14-665-F 00715 that you fully--are there things in the affidavit MS TRAMMELL: The revised or the original? CAPTAIN HOLT: The revised. MS TRAMMELL: Okay, CAPTAIN HOLT: That-that would not be true or MS TRAMMELL: Well, that number six. I mean we went ahead?4 mean that was a question he, you know, the Director was asking me. ?Do I know? Have y?all seen the pharmacists license?? I said No we got them the day of the execution so that ones--l mean so far everything?s fine, And then I went back and checked because I didn?t personally look at the expiration date on the drugs, so I went back and looked at the expiration date on the drugs and number seven was true. And then number eight, the changes they made was right here where it says ?while under my CAPTAIN HOLT: Mm-hmm. MS TRAMMELL: They added that or worded that different, CAPTAIN HOLT: Was that at your request they worded that different or MS TRAMMELL: The Director?s, CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. The Director got heavily involved in this after I brought it to his attention. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay.- IVIS TRAMMELL: With staff in the office, actually. Yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: Why??you said that the Director wasn?t happy that you signed it. Why-why was he not happy that you signed that document? MS TRAMMELL: Well, because we went through it. He went through each KWD CIV-14-665-F 00716 these and he says, you know, he said ?Do you know about the license? Have you seen it?? and I said no. He said ?You?re signing that you have, so in a court of law, you know, you?re falsifying a document. 80 he was?~he??that was his concern and I?m?I?m--l hate to speak for him, but I guess I am. That and then about the drugs itself. The expiration date. You know, he quizzed me on all of CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And he said signed a document and it was notarized that it was factual and it?s not.? CAPTAIN HOLT: And you-and you still to this day don?t know who wrote that document? IVIS TRAMMELL: I assume the AG's office did, CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, but you don?t know why they wrote this time versus any other execution? MS TRAMMELL: No I don?t. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I just assume that it has to do because of the change in the drug protocol and all the media involvement with the execution of these two offenders on the same day. And why they chose to do this, I don?t know. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And also I think the Director, and I?m speaking for him and I probably shouldn?t, but he didn?t know anything about CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I brought it to his attention and he doesn?t, you know, he didn?t much care for that I don?t think. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Let?s go to, Okay one more thing before we go to the day of. The?the prescription chain of custody itself. Were you involved in any way KWD CIV-14-665-F 00717 00718 in the chain of custody of the prescription drugs that day? Did you ever have them in your custody or control? MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: No. Okay. No, just looked at-for the expiration date. CAPTAIN HOLT: After the fact? I mean: that was after theyndid you look at the expiration date after the execution or before? MS TRAMMELL: No before. Before I signed this revised. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I went up there to look. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Before you signed the revised. Okay. April which is the day the execution occurred, if you would, just walk us through that day from whenever you first got involved that morning through the end and then we?ll come back and have questions for you then. MS TRAMMELL: Okay. I made some notes awhile back on this. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: That?s not them. Okay. I received a call that morning from- at 5:19 and I got that date. I mean, originally I got it off my cell, but it was on-in the notification--about what was going on with Lockett and what- seen and .asked for approval to use a Taser. I felt like the Taser would be the best avenue to utilize for the safety of the staff CAPTAIN HOLT: For what reason? Did they give you a reason why they wanted to use it? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. The offender, of course, wasn?t responding. lthink they said that he moved his feet or something so they knew he was alive but he was wrapped up in a blanket and they seen bloody rags so they were concerned, fKWD CIV-14-665-F 00719 obviously, that the offender had something to cut himself with. And then based on his behavior in the past and some of the statements he made, they were concerned about him using the weapon on a staff member. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: So, I called my boss, got the approval. CAPTAIN HOLT: Who is your boss? MS TRAIVIMELL: David Parker. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And then got a call from him about?4 dunno, I didn?t write this down-~but about 7:30. He wanted to update and was on my way to work. So anyway, things got hectic the minute I walked to work which is not normally-the case for an execution. So while I was jumping through hoops to get reports for the incident that happened on Lockett, we was waiting. Of course, Lockett was over at medical and we were waiting on??originally it was Dr. Mahler [ph. sp.] but apparently he wasn?t going to be there or something happened. Anyway, it was the PA. Jack-4 can?t think of his last name. So, when I seen him come through, I though I?m gonna go down there so I went down to medical and they had Lockett out on??in the exam room, emergency room. 80 seen both of his wounds, his cuts. They took the bandage off but they were both about right here. I don?t know which direction they were going but they~they weren?t bad. Originally when I got the call they said one cut was an inch deep, originally and so it wasn?t. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: You say right. For the audio you?re MS TRAIVIMELL: Oh yeah. CAPTAIN the inside of.. TRAMMELL: Yes, on both arms and I thought was odd that he had cut himself way back here. CAPTAIN HOLT: By the elbow? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah, I mean back in here someplace. CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: Okay. I thought if he wanted to commit suicide, he-he knew were to cut himself at so I thought that was odd that he would that. But from that I knew that he wasn?t in, you know, in danger. He was just kinda lethargic, didn?t really say anything. Bruce White he?s a clinician and he worked unit in the past and he had a report with Lockett. So he was supposed to come in at noon and stay till the execution but we called him. He went down there. I think you guys have talked to Bruce as well. I didn?t go back down there anymore. The .did. We were instructed to do different things. One was to go back and video tape Lockett refusing his attorney visits, which we did that, so we had?-he originally refused when we went back I think the chief did that. CAPTAIN HOLT: And that was at what time? ldunno. Okay. MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: Mid?morning? Okay, mid-morning. I don?t know what time but it?s documented someplace. You should have CAPTAIN HOLT: Was he already at IHCC when you got to work? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay so he was MS TRAMM ELL: Yes. KWD 00720 10 CIV-14-665-F 00721 CAPTAIN HOLT: At IHCC. MS TRAMMELL: Oh yeah. He had been there awhile. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Yes, ?cause they originally they took him, remember to medical at unit. Then from there they drove him up to IHCC. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: So after the PA. looked at him, they put him back in the cell and then that's when we had staff sitting on him. Three officers and then they checked him every fifteen minutes. Opened the cell door with the nurse or LPN checking him. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: That happened throughout the day. Then my boss arrived sometime mid?morning with--of course things were real hectic with demands from his boss, you know, wanting an update every hour?-which he was working with Dr. Stama [ph. I really wasn?t involved in that process. ltjust got real chaotic, real stressful. [ph. sp.] arrived around 12 or 1. Of course we was doing the reports. I mean there?s just a lot of paperwork that?s involved when you have an incident, which this was a planned use of force. I was getting updates on Lockett throughout the day. The first dignitary arrived at 2:30 and Ijust couldn?t? believe it. Usually they don?t arrive till 4:00. Oh I wrote down here about that affidavit that Jerry Massey wanted a copy of it to release to media. The office arrived around noon, I mean 3:00. The Director arrives about that same time. I met with the Director and we had already had it scheduled to meet at 3:00 with all the strap down team and all the staff that?s back there in the chamber so that we could cover everything with the Director since this is his first one. Because policy states, I think, pretty sure it does, that the Director is part of the staging process, but they?ve never been staged since I?ve been ?1 00722 there. They just go straight up so we talked about that and make sure everyone is on board with everyone?s duties. So, talked to the Director about the af?davit. I wrote down 3:30. The victim?s family started to arrive at 3:30ish. I always have Jessica call me when they arrive. The first one that l?-weIl I just shadowe_??but no one went down there and talked to them. So I always think it?s real important for me to go talk to the victim?s families so I always do that. Go down there and spend a few minutes with them. Talk about anything that they want to talk about basically. So I did that and also that's where I, you know, if there?s--if we have more than 12, I tell. I make the decision, you know because it?s always the family comes first and the office and the victim?s services, sometimes they don?t like that. Not so much the AG's of?ce, but the victim?s services. Which, mean, they had to go sit down in the overflow and they wasn?t happy about that but I didn?t have time for that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: You know, it?s just the way it is. Anyways, so I met with them. Dignitaries, a lot more started showing up, the office. At 4:45 I couldn?t stand it anymore with everybody in my office, so I headed down. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Usually, I don?t go down that early. CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Let?s stop there and let-let me walk through from the morning to that point that you go to unit. MS TRAMMELL: Okay. CAPTAIN HOLT: So you're called, I think you said around 5:19 or MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: Mm-hmm. 12 TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Ant-told you what was going on. MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: That?s when you got approval for use for the Taser. MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Did I make any other statements to you? Anything else other than what you?ve already told us regarding Lockett's action or inaction that morning? MS TRAMMELL: I'm pretty sure- said that they knew that he was alive because I though-said his feet was moving or they seen?seen movement so they knew he was alive. - called me after they used the Taser and gave me an update. That's when. I guess it was 51.. Of courseot the information from the nurses I guess. But that the cut on one arm was an inch and a half deep or an inch deep, which that concerned me thinking that, you know. he was trying to commit suicide. So-gave me an update that morning before I got to work, basically. Of course I was getting calls from my boss that morning too. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: So I was sharing the information with him. CAPTAIN HOLT: We-we know through-through some of the evidence collection that he had cut himself. MS TRAMMELL: Mm?hmm. CAPTAIN HOLT: He had taken MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: razor apart and cut himself with that. Is that something that they would normally have up until that day? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. they would have had that in that high max cell. KWD CIV-14-665-F 00723 13 00724 CAPTAIN Okay. MS TRAMMELL: They would have. So that wouldn?t have made any difference. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. You got permission from David Parker to use the Taser. I MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Did--was any information relayed to you after .used it as to whether they had to use it. whether it was used. What information was relayed to you after that planned use of force? MS TRAMMELL: Well I mean- called me back, said it was successful. That they used it. They?they got in there and they secured the offender. I can?t remember if-said he cuffed up. I don't think he did. I think they had to--they went in, I think, but you probably--you probably already know from the interviews. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Um, but you know that there was no injuries to staff and that there was no visible injuries to the offender. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: At first they thought they?d missed him, but they didn?t, CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: But he was wrapped up real snug in that blanket. - -thought he was trying to bleed out, i don?t know. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, so he goes to IHCC. which is where Lockett was when?when you arrived MS TRAMMELL: Mm-hmm. CAPTAIN HOLT: Any concerns from any IHCC staff regarding his condition 14 upon your arrival? MS TRAMMELL: No, as a matter of fact, they--you know--theyjust put a Band?Aid or they didn?t think there needed to be stitches. They didn?t-4t wasn?t a Band?Aid. They wrapped his arm back up, both his arms back up, but no. The?the P.A. wasn?t concerned at all. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Who made the decision??Iet me ask you this. Did you make the decision to leave Lockett at IHCC for a better part of that day? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Why?why was that decision made? MS TRAMMELL: I made the decision as well as my boss as well and I think the Director may have even been involved in that decision. Just so that he would have medical staff on standby if something, you know, if he needed some assistance with anything. CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAIVIIVIELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: KWD CIV-14-665-F 00725 Okay. And we had him on the soft restraints too. Okay. Explain~explain to me the difference between soft restraints are just he can move? Mm-hmm. He?s not locked down to his body? Right and we?-at some point we took those off. Okay. I don?t -I don?t have that?the time frames with me. Okay. Well I may but I don?t recall what they were. 15 OKWD 00726 CAPTAIN HOLT: Would-would he be able to-to get a drink of water in his cell with soft restraints on? MS TRAMMELL: I'm pretty sure, yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And we offered, you know, meals to him and he refused those. CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: Okay and those are documented. Mm?hmm. CAPTAIN HOLT: How often during the day were you briefed by I--because I?m assuming you didn?t stay at IHCC all day. MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: I'm assuming you went back to your office at some point. MS TRAMMELL: went back to my office. CAPTAIN HOLT: How often were you briefed upon his condition and what were you told throughout the day? MS TRAMMELL: Just that-~and I don?t know the time frames but I know.. -got a briefing and submitted it hourly, but I was?you know-went down there a lot or I?d call and check. I mean, as the day progressed he got?he got better. I mean at ?rst when I first when down there he was lethargic or he seemed like he was but you know they felt like that he was fine. Especially after Bruce White got there and was visiting with him that he was getting better. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. At some point the decision is made to take Lockett from IHCC back to Unit. Is that decision--did you set that time for him to go back or was it just? MS TRAMMELL: I think - probably did. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. 16 TRAMMELL: We probably discussed it but that was to just-to get ready for the execution process. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAIVIIVIELL: Because we chose, you know, we had talked about it and we chose not to put him in that cell ?cause that?d mean we?d have to get him out again and we didn?t want to have to go through that. So we just put him in the shower. CAPTAIN HOLT: Use some words to describe that day. That portion from the time that you get woke up at 5:19 or so until the time that you finally decide to go over to Unit. You know you refer to it as hectic, chaotic, stressful. What?-What?s rnaMngiterthaf? MS TRAMMELL: Well just the added pressure from my boss and it goes all the way up because of what Lockett did. I mean it?s stressful enough having two executions. You know? And that?s what I wanna focus?that?s what I wanted to focus on. That day is making sure my staff was prepared and ready and confident and to-to proceed with two. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: You know and make?~you know I wanted to reach out and touch base with everyone involved and I wasn?t able to that cause I just focused on what Lockett and doing reports and you know, answering, jumping through hoops to answer questions and that sort of thing. CAPTAIN HOLT: Do you know or have you addressed anything that-Jet me think how I want to ask this. Was there anything that you know that was missed in preparing for that day due to other things that you were doing. Anything that you know that you didn?t do and maybe there?s not I?m just?~if you know that there?s anything that you?ve missed. MS TRAMMELL: N0. KWD CIV-14-665-F 00727 to CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. So at roughly, say 4:00, 4:30 you go back to-?you walk over to unit. MS TRAMMELL: 4:45 CAPTAIN HOLT: 4:45 MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: Okay. And, and another reason I went early is cause I was gonna start-start training the staff on, you know, our contingency plan if he wasn?t unconscious. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: After that 5 minute mark. CAPTAIN HOLT: Walk us through starting at 4:45 when you get to unit, walk us through what happens up until the execution starts. MS TRAMMELL: Okay, so I-I get in there and the doctor is not there yet. Everyone else is in the room, which, I had and the Executioners and the EMT. SO we talk about this drug, Midazolam, and the effects, the slower effects and so I--the executioners didn?t know anything about it. No one did. Well I think. did maybe a little bit but so we, you know, we developed a plan that after the ?rst 5 minutes the green like comes on. That's when the doctor gets up and checks and then I?ll turn and face the door. CAPTAIN HOLT: Mm-hmm. MS TRAMMELL: And I?ll?I?ll either say he?s unconscious or the offender is not unconscious and then we?ll set-set again for two minutes. And then after two minutes the light will go off and then the doctor will come check and we?ll continue that. So we come up with that plan. The first execution I did, actually, they didn?t hear me say ?Let the execution begin? cause I said it to softly, so that kind of caused a little- KWD 00728 1 8 TWD 00729 -it didn?t? cause any problems. It could have. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: But so I now--from that I learnt that to turn and face the door so that they cane?and speak up loudly. So anyway, we talked about that. We went over It several times and then like I said, I went down, went to the restroom. The doctor was coming in, we went up and then we went over the doctor again. Several times. Three, four or five times. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: With everyone. CAPTAIN HOLT: You say- knew the effects. - you?re referring to the paramedic? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And the reason I say that is because .and the doctor were talking about it. They called it by another name. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And they looked at the-the dosage and the?and the doctor, I think .said ?Oh yeah, with that amount it?s not gonna take long.? But obviously it did. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: So you?re walking and between the time that you walk over there and the time that they bring Lockett in to?to strap him onto the table, that?s what you?re doing? You?re visiting. MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: You?re doing the training? 19 TRAMMELL: Yes. Well I do my sequence of events which is??you?ve got a copy of that, you know, just what I read and that?s what- and the Doctor--well, it was Doctor,? and we go over everything. Just, I read that to them and they all sign it. CAPTAIN HOLT: Did anything else take place between the time that you went over there and the time that-that they brought Lockett in? MS TRAMMELL: Did anything else take place? CAPTAIN HOLT: Anything else going on, you know, in the execution chamber? Any other training, meetings? MS TRAMMELL: Well-does .with the executioner, but that?s before I get up there. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: So. does that back there i] room and wasn?t there when .did that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I had already finished with - CAPTAIN HOLT: Anything else that you did while you were over there between the time that you get there and the time that they bring Lockett in? MS TRAMMELL: I can?twno. CAPTAIN HOLT: So at?at some point, it?s determined that it's time to take Lockett to, MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: the execution chamber. Whose decision was it to leave him or do have him in restraints MS TRAMMELL: Mine. CAPTAIN HOLT: shower? KWD 00730 IR.) 23 24 25 26 MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: But, you see, we determined that way back March 9th. Yup. MS TRAMM ELL: And that's that??l don?t know if I gave that to you or not. CAPTAIN HOLT: Yes. MS TRAMMELL: Yeah, that was just the extra precautionary measures that we determined, CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: So do you go to the shower MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: that team? The strap down team? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: Okay. When you get to And actually, I don?t?I don?t even know if! said anything to Lockett. I may have. I mean normally I do and normally?in the past it was a different - but. would?this would say we?re gonna let you walk out like a man and you know that sort. You know, have a little conversation with him, but I don?t remember?l don't remember what was said to him even. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: But I did, I mean I was real cautious to make sure to make sure I was behind him and the CERT team walking out. CAPTAIN HOLT: Did he make any statements to you or any member of the CERT team? MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: I don?t recall him saying--he didn?t say anything negative. Okay. If he said anything, it wasn?t, didn?t amount to anything. I KWD 00731 OKWD 00732 know that he and Bruce White said something as~as he was walking off, you know, something was said between him and Bruce. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, but you?re not sure what that was? MS TRAMMELL: No, just something positive. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. So you followed him into the execution chamber. Do you view the strap down? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Any problems at all with the strap down? MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: Did you have any problems with him? MS TRAMMELL: No, none. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Absolutely none. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: No we didn?t. They strapped him down. tell him that once that, you know, we get the IVs hooked up, I would talk to him about how?how everything was gonna work and??let me look at my notes here-~says that we brought him in at 5:21. The?the EMT walks over to his left arm and, you know. what I?ve said abdut it being an intervenes drug user and he said I usually try to stay out of their way but it seem-seemed time to try to have a conversation with the offenderjust to keep him calm. So I walked overthere thinking by this time. was on the other side and I was at the head of his, you know, by his head and I said ?Really, what was your drug of choice?? just to make conversation and he said lce. He did a lot of Ice. I said thought that was a white man?s drug,? or something like that and he laughed and so .went over-?you know, .was over there looking at that other arm and .was- pats it and does that sort of thing and don?t--l guess 22 was just sticking the needie in. I don?t really remember what all - did, but. wasn?t successful on either arm and so by this time the Doctor--and I?m not 100% on all of CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: But they were having conversations and then they go and look at his right leg, foot. Take his shoe and sock off and look at his foot and raise his pants leg up and look at his calves and I?m thinking they looked at the other leg, but I?m not 100% sure. I think did say that, you know, my preference would be to use the right leg ?cause that would be the one that I can monitor the best. Of course is on the other side. does one arm, I do the other. I?ve actually had a?a vein collapse before. Made me real nervous. It was the one was watching too anyway, they were just really, really struggling to find a vein. By this time, l-l sit down and kinda got out of their way and let them do their work. At one point, the Doctor inserted a needle into his--on the left side, back here somewhere. CAPTAIN HOLT: On his neck? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah on his neck. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I?m pretty sure it was the Doctor go back to it and I thought well did that vein collapse? But part of the needle, you know, the end part? Maybe it was a catheter was?~it was just hanging there. I mean there-- It was kind of a bloody mess. The offender never complained. Not one time. You know, he was very cooperative but they just-they could not find a vein. CAPTAIN HOLT: What discusses are the Doctor?can you hear discussions going on between the Doctor and the paramedic? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah, I mean, yeah? was getting frustrated ?cause - very good at what. does that I?ve seen. I mean, and - was getting KWD 00733 little frustrated ?cause- was not having any luck and they were just having conversations?like I said, by this time, I was sitting down. They get-they decided to do a cut down and we got the cut down kit and youu-I think you got one of those. CAPTAIN HOLT: Mm-hmm. MS TRAMMELL: And I?m sitting down towards, kinda??weII I know you got a drawing, but towards the end of his--the-the gurney. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Out of the way. And I'm thinking, I'm sitting there thinking to myself I?ve never seen the cut down so I didn?t know how bloody it would be and thought-I purposely did not get up to look ?cause I-I didn?t wanna have a bad reaction to it, you know, ?xing to do an execution. And I was thinking to myself I wouldn?t know what I?m looking for, I mean, Iwouldn?t know if they?re doing it right. I?m not in a position. The Doctor is. But anyway- opens it up. .lays a blue covering over the offender. - talking to the offender. - has_ hand over his forehead. Just to keep the offender calm because you could tell he was in some pain. I gave him a shot to deaden it and then - either gets a scalpel or. gets that needle, but it looks like -iust kind ofjabbing and I don?t know. I know yow you?ve interviewed the other CAPTAIN HOLT: Mm?hmm. MS TRAMM ELL: they?they could tell you more exactly what happened, but--the Doctor-was struggling and said can?t, you know, I can?t get it" and I thought well I thought the cut down was a sure way of getting it. You know? I thought that was pretty much the last resort. But--and the offender was in some pain. I mean he--in my opinion he was in more pain then then he was during the execution. I mean, when he actually started, he never said a word. He?he was taking it like a man. He was. And I?ve seen it before where they offenders where they KWD 00734 24 try real hard to get the vein. CAPTAIN HOLT: Mm-hmm. MS TRAMMELL: You know how painful that can be so I was really proud of him for that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Do they ever ask-~they, being the doctor or the they ever ask your input about what~what to do while they?re trying to find a vein? MS TRAMMELL: No, no. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And like I said, I try to stay out of their way. ?Cause then, by this time, you know, it started at 6:23 so kinda lost track of time, but it was getting closer to--for time to start. CAPTAIN HOLT: Mm?hmm. MS TRAMMELL: So I thought I gotta stay out of their way and let them do their job. Well when they were working on his neck, they cut his-his-?it was a??what do they callu-scrubs? And they had cut that, you know, so they could get to it. Had it pulled down and then, then they said they were gonna go to the groin area. So he had on scrubs with an elastic waist band. They cut that on both sides and pulled that down or kinda laid it over and the doctor originally was working on the left side. Couldn?t get it and there was blood everywhere, couldn?t get it and it looked like to me- -i was still sitting down--it looked like .was kinda jabbing, trying to get that vein. That?s how it looked to me, or poking and so then seems like .was on the right side, but again, I?m not 100%, but. ended up on the right side and .found it. I did that and so I got it and then, you know, we watched that driplook at the drip and .looked at the drip and I?m pretty sure the doctor did as well. - was back there in the back and ?knows a lot about the steady flow and .said it ?looks good, looks good.? And so I went back there and KWD 00735 looked and we-we monitored that for a while. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And actually we had a conversation about this the next day because time, it was hard to measure time during this period and -, which you guys interviewed, I thought that we monitored for 15 min. I don?t know if. told you that. That sounds like an awfully long time. I don?t think we monitored it that long but we did monitor for a while until they felt comfortable. They meaning the doctor and the EMT. That-that we had a good vein. CAPTAIN HOLT: Which-whicl? said he thought it was 15 minutes? MS TRAMMELL: - [ph. Sp.) CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And .was just observing. That was .first time to be in there. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: So when I told me that the next day, I thought I don?t know. That seems like an awful long time, but anyway. So they?they went back, after they, everyone felt comfortable in the drip. You know, the steady flow and - put the covering over the, you know, the needle and all of that and covered him back up. CAPTAIN HOLT: Who makes the final decision in that room, who?s responsible for the final decision of IV placement? Of-of where that is to go if they?re having trouble like that? MS TRAMMELL: I would have to look and see exactly what the policy says. I mean, ultimately what happens in there I guess is my responsibility but l-l wouldn?t know about going to the groin area. I mean, I thought the final--if all else fails you could do the cut down. ?Cause I thought that was fool proof that you do a cut down KWD 00736 having. could say it was mine. KWD CIV-14-665-F 00737 CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: and you?re?you know. you?re in. Okay. So when I see that I mean I Who made the final decision for Lockett? Was it the doctor or the EMT or yourself? l-l?d probably say all three of us. Okay. ln-in collaboration on it. Okay. Because I felt comfortable that--l mean i didn?t feel comfortable any through that whole process as it progressed because it was just?~l was just getting nervous about what all i was seeing and the difficulties that they were Okay. Who-who made the decision to cover the insertion sight? I did. Did-did they ask you? I mean, is that something that they ask you? Is that a statement you made? How was that decision made? l?l don?t think it was a deliberate decision. It was just an automatic decision. I mean, you know from where they put that at you could see his privates. You know, l--hindsight if we talk about that, I?ll address Okay. some point if you want to, but I guess-l guess you CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Go ahead and finish walking me through from now 27 they have the IV started till the end of the process. Walk MS TRAMMELL: Okay. CAPTAIN HOLT: that part. MS TRAMMELL: 80 we have--so you can see that there?s staging people from unit up into the chamber. Everyone that?s gonna-4 mean, you know you could kinda see shadows and that sort of thing and so normally there?s, I?ve had up to 30 minutes to talk the offender about the process and I didn?t have much time. But I went over there and was talking to him. That?s when he said his mouth was so dry and you could tell. It was all crusted over and I told you what I did. CAPTAIN HOLT: What?what do you mean? MS TRAMMELL: Well l-l wiped his mouth. He asked for that. wiped his mouth off and then just tossed that Kleenex in the floor which you guys got that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Remember? But I talked to him a little bit about the drug, what I knew about it. You know, this--it wasn?t like the other drug. It was gonna be a slower process and where his attorneys were gonna be at about him making a last statement. He said he wasn?t gonna make one and you know, I just didn't have a whole lot of t?time to talk to him because it was way after 6 by then. So after that, the director gets on the phone and they hand the phone to me and he said "We?re gonna let the execution begin.? I said ?Okay.? So I walked back over and you know, ??of course everyone knows and I told them ?Raise the shade? and did and .turned the mike on and look out there and there?s so many people. Every seat was full and kinda turned a little bit 8- could see me. I said ?Let the exe"-- or no, asked the offender if had any?-a statement. And I said ?Mr. Lockett. do you have a statement that you?d like to make?? And he said And that?s all he said and so I turned and said let the execution process begin and started. Of course I looked up KWD 00738 OKWD 00739 at the clock, or I think I did. I always like to because the 5 minutes standing still is a long time. Let me tell ya. It was a long time and I don?t like to look up and down or look out and see who is out there. I don?t like to do that. Director Jones, when he was here. he told me it was best just not to. My ?rst execution, those attorneys for the offender was just boo?booing and crying so made it a point just to watch the arm. Of course, I wasn?t able to with Lockett, but I was watching his face and his expressions and nothing was happening. I mean nothing was happening. Nothing. You know, he was trying to be real patient, it was obvious. He was laying there with his eyes closed and i mean, it just looked like nothing was happening for a while. And then he?d open his eyes and he?d kinda look around and at one point he looked over at me like what- what?s taking so long and I mean, that?s just the expression he gave me and--of course then he started, he closed his eyes and his breathing slowed down just a little bit but I mean, I knew he was still conscious at that five minutes mark when the doctor got up. You know, the light went, goes off and the doctor goes and checks him. You know it was apparent. It was apparent he was still conscious so l-l stated that. I think I said ?The offender is still conscious,? and so-?they didn?t do anything and they set the clock again. And when it went off again, the doctor ge?~and between that time then his breaking did slow down and you know, his chest wasn?t rising quite as much and his face looked like it was getting more relaxed. With the old drug, the phenobarbital, the offender quickly would take two deep breaths. I mean real quick into and kinda make a snoring sound and the-theyjust kinda look like they?re in a really deep sleep. And then next their color starts changing to ash and then kinda greyish and then they?re gone. And that wasn't anything like this drug. At all. But anyway, after the second-after the five minutes between the five and the next--the-the newspaper said three'minutes but we had scheduled for two?but when .got up again .said he was unconscious and so 1 stated that and that?s when they started pushing the second 29 ONUI-00740 drug and--let me look right here, my notes. ?Cause when I wrote this up??the first the I noticed, of course I was watching his face and I was watching his face and I was . looking at his chest and everything looked like after he was unconscious, it looked like everything was going okay, just really slow. And then he moved his mouth side to side like that and I thought, that?s odd. You know, ?cause I?ve never seen that before. Just kind of twitching to the side. I thought that?s odd. And then a little while l-later, and I don?t know time frames, but he started shaking, quivering. You know, just all over and I didn?t know what to think about that. Just all over and then after that, it looked like he?~and his eyes were closed the whole time. Well at some point maybe- maybe before he started quivering, he mumbled something like an odd sound. Odd and then he raised, try to raise his hands and his feet and his head up and we?~he did. He raised his head up and at some point he said something and the media said that he said something's wrong. I don?t know if that?s what he said or not. It was just something that I recognized. I thought he said something but I can?t remember exactly what it was because I was just--you know inside I didn?t know what to--l mean, I was kind of panicking. Thinking oh my God. He?s coming out of this. It?s not working and so he did that and I wasn't sure where the director was sitting at out there, but I looked up to look for the director and he was sitting directly in front of me. So i looked at the director hard like gimme some, you know gimme some pointers or give me some advice and he looked up at the clock, the director did. So I looked back down at Warner, I mean Lockett and he did it again. I looked back up at the director and I knew some--it was going south. Something was definitely wrong cause I thought he was coming out of it and he--it seems like he did a third time, but I can?t say that for certain, as far as raising up--but I looked over at the doctor and the doctor was looking at me like something?s wrong so i motioned for the doctor to come up and .ooked under there and then . whispered something in my ear to the affect that 30 the drugs not going into his vein or it?s something along those lines. And so, I made the decision to lower the curtain and l--you know, one of the things I should've done is said something. That we had a malfunction with-with the drug or with the vein but I don?t know if I said anything. I think I started to say something and itjust didn?t come out but I should've said something and that would've helped this process. But anyway, we lowered the shades and have- I said need to talk to the director. Get the director on the line.? Of course, all those people were still sitting out there so it took .a minute and I guess the director walked out to get on the phone . to have a private conversation. So he asked the questions about is there enough drugs--well i told him about, you know, it wasn?t going into the vein and so he asked the questions, I don't know exactly, about is there enough drugs to kill the offender. I don?t know if used the word kill or not but--and I asked the doctor and .repeated back and then I said is there enough drugs to~~or first question, did he absorb enough drugs and the doctor said no. Then the question was is there enough drugs left and so the EMT kinda went like this and-and the doctor said no. And the director said that?s not what I asked. I asked if there was enough drugs absorbed or not absorbed but into his system to, for him to die and the doctor said no. So I told the director that and he said~?l don?t remember exactly what he said. Hold on or something. So he come back in a little while and?and they were working on the offender, not to revive him. They were working on to check veins and-and see if there was another vein or something else they could do to continue with the execution and then the director come back on and he said stand down maybe? Or hold--we?re going to stop the execution. ?i think that?s the words? Or stand down. He used a term that I'm not used to in Oklahoma. Maybe stand down ?cause I?ve heard him say that before on something, but anyway I said ?Do you mean to-to stop?? He said yeah. Which there--l mean, we had already stopped because we wasn?t able to do anything KWD CIV-14-665-F 00741 3 1 but the doctor was saying don?t know if there?s enough drugs. How am I supposed to know if there's enough drugs to absorb?? But the doctor did say that it looks like it was absorbing into his tissue, you know. The doctor was kind of-lwas pretty frustrated. I think .got frustrated with me but you could tell I mean, after lowered the blinds--and I went back and asked my staff the next day. I said ?you know, I do not remember seeing that offender raise up or do anything else after we lowered the blinds." And they said ?He didn?t." i said I don?t recall him doing anything else. So maybe if we had just kept the blinds up, it would?ve still taken to 7:06, but it?s neither here nor there because we did lower the blinds. But he didn?t--he wasn?t raising up or doing any more of that. But the doctor, I mean, the EKG was, .was monitoring it and .was checking his heart and all of that and .said his, each time .said his heart beat was getting more faint each time. And I said ?Are you gonna call it?? I said ?Not yet.? So I asked .that a couple of times and .got pretty frustrated with me. .said ?Not yet. I will tell you when I?m gonna call it.? So it wasn?t like at 7:06 hejust died. It?s not like at 7:06 he had a massive heart attack and died. He was dying the whole time, in my opinion, he was dying the whole time. lt was just taking a lot longer because it was absorbing into his system instead of going directly through his vein. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Can you??lets start here. Can you just write down where once-once the IV is inserted, can you just write down where everybody was standing at as the drugs were being administered? MS TRAMMELL: Want me to just write their name CAPTAIN HOLT: That?s fine. Yes that?s ?ne. Except for the--just put physician for physician, MS TRAMMELL: Okay. was back here in this corner and I had the little remote for the blinds and then the-the mic was right here in this area and KWD 00742 originally, like I said. job was to watch this vein here. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Okay and I?m right here. Are you talking about during the execu?on? CAPTAIN HOLT: Yes. Yeah, during the administration of the drugs, yes. MS TRAMMELL: pedestal here and this The_ was just making observation and I was against this wall over here and then about right here there?s Okay. I'm about right here probably. There?s a?a that EKG some--about right there I guess and then there?s a chair and the doctors right here sitting in that chair. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And them-do you want me to do--l don?t really know where?l kno_ right. I mean, - that door don?t know if- standing or sitting or what. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, but?bu- right there by that door? MS TRAMMELL: Mm-hmm. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. No, that?s fine. Just sign your name at the bottom so we know that that?s the one that you filled out. What-~as the drugs are being administered--and I know it's your duty to say that it's ?Let the execution begin,? once everything gets?gets started. Do you give Lockett an opportunity to make a last statement? MS TRAMMELL: Mm?hmm. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: Does he deny to do that? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah he said no. KWD 00743 OKWD 00744 CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, so he verbally said no we was not? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And I asked. I mean before we even started, I told him I was gonna give him the opportunity and he said he wasn't going to say anything but of course, I asked him anyway when we started. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, so it's after that that you say ?Let the execution begin"? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Is that the cue for them to start administering the first drug? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And we start timing it. - has a stop watch back there and then try to look up and I tell everybody else too to look up. So at?-you know??we?ve got two clocks so that we can kinda monitor the five minutes. CAPTAIN HOLT: When you talk about that Lockett is sitting there with--you could tell that he?s not sleeping, that he opens his eyes and looks at you. Is that after the first drug had been administered? MS TRAMMELL: It was while it was being administered. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, while it was being administered? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah, the ?rst five minutes, yeah. And I don?t know how long he?d been into it, but obviously when he looked at me, he obviously didn?t feel a thing yet just from the expression that he gave me CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: What?s going on? 34 CAPTAIN HOLT: And that is the process we talked about? We waited for five then we check then we wait another two. Is that the process that you said that you had talked about MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: everybody to get straight? MS TRAMMELL: Mm?hmm. Yeah cause we needed to come up with a time frame 'cause that phenobarbital, mean, after the first, you know, few seconds they were unconscious and then??and then we knew that, or the probability was that he wouldn?t be unconscious after the first five. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Right before you explain that, you talked about his mouth being dry. How could--is that-is that a statement that he made or was it something that you noticed? MS TRAMMELL: He did. When I was?when was?~well yeah you could tell that his mouth was real dry but I mean I wasn?t going to say anything about it but he said--I said ?Is there anything you need?? or you know something like that after they got everything hooked up. He said ?Well my mouths so dry I was gonna see if I could get my-my mouth wiped off,? and so I-I did/ CAPTAIN HOLT: How could you tell that his mouth was dry? MS TRAMMELL: Well it had CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: you know. All looked pretty nasty. CAPTAIN HOLT: And you wiped his mouth off? MS TRAMMELL: I did. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Did he ask for anything else during that time? MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: Make any other statements to you during that time? KWD CIV-14-665-F 00745 35 OKWD 00746 MS TRAMMELL: No, not?~no I don?t think so. I mean just because they were working so hard on him and it was painful for him. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: ?Cause usually I do have a conversation with every offender. I just think it?s important to do that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Let?s-let?s talk about the IV insertion sight and covering it up. MS TRAMMELL: Okay. CAPTAIN HOLT: So who?who physically covered the insertion sight? MS TRAMMELL: I may be??you know it may have been the EMT that started it but was involved in it as well. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: You know? CAPTAIN HOLT: So you were physically involved in taking the sheet and covering him up? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah I always like just to tidy it up. Make sure it?s not, you know make sure it?s even and all of that but .may have started it just to make sure that, you know, it didn?t touch the area. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I?m not--again??certain that. started it. It may have-? think. did, but I just know I was involved in it as well. CAPTAIN HOLT: Was there any questions about covering it up or it was just something that happened? MS TRAMMELL: No. Yeah it was automatic. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Yeah, there wasn?t a discussion about whether we should, whether we shouldn?t. CAPTAIN HOLT: Now during a normal execution, I?ll refer to it as normal, where there-where they have IVs in their arms. MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: that insertion site? out. MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: Yes. Is it your duty and another person?s duty in there to view I don?t know if it?s a duty ?cause it's not in Okay. it~it?s what I do. Okay. I mean, yeah. What?s the purpose for that? For??to watch that vein. Okay, to watch it? To watch it. Yeah to watch it. What do you mean by watch it? For??to??if Collapses or if something goes wrong with it. If it comes And had you done that in previous executions? Yes. Okay. You talk it not being in protocol, and I agree, that its-that it is??or I can?t find it in the protocol that we?ve been sent. On the sheet that you sent that?s?that?s entitled ?Warden duties for execution? that at 6PM, which is after the shades are raised, that one of those duties is to observe the right arm iv and the offender. MS TRAMMELL: KWD CIV-14-665-F 00747 wrote that up. 37 CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMIVIELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAIVIMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAIVIIVIELL: Okay. I wrote that up. Before or after the execution did you write this? I wrote it when you called and asked for it. Okay, so that would?ve been after the execution? Yes. Okay. (unintelligible) But that would be one of your normal duties? I mean, if it?s on that sheet, you would agree that that?s one of your normal duties? Yes and in the past l?l tried to watch both arms and?and depending on the size?depending on the size of the offender, you may not get to see both arms, but that?s happened before where I had difficulties. Where we??l couldn?t see both arms so that?s why I had an extra person in there with me CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Was there any conversation about not being able to View the insertion site for Lockett?s execution? MS TRAMIVIELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Did the EMT make any comments or did the physician make any comments about not being able to View it? MS TRAIVIMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Not-~l mean if they did, I don?t recall them saying anything. CAPTAIN HOLT: Could you, with the sheet as it was placed over Lockett, could you see his insertion site? MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. When the doctor finally raised the sheet to see 38 KWD CIV-14-665-F 00748 KWD CIV-14-665-F 00749 what was going on, did you see under the sheet at that time? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: What did you View at that time? MS TRAMMELL: A clear liquid on top of his groin CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: ..and blood. CAPTAIN HOLT: On the outside of the skin? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. I mean, to me from where I?m standing, that?s what it looked like. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Did you View anything else that looked out of the normal? MS TRAMMELL: That was enough out of the normal. I mean~l mean all, you know, the shades were raised so I couldn?tjust go over there. I mean ljust glanced at it. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: But that?s all I seen. CAPTAIN HOLT: What was your opinion at that time?- mean I?m sure you drew an opinion of what had happened? MS TRAMMELL: My opinion was that the-the medicine wasn?t, the drug wasn?t going into his system. I CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Into his vein. CAPTAIN HOLT: Could you?could you see the needle or the catheter? MS TRAMMELL: That's all-~no I didn?t. I didn?t see anything else. I just remember seeing that the liquid on top of him. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Did you see any raised areas on his-on his body in 39 that area at all? Did-did you notice any deformity or anything else in that area besides liquid on top? MS TRAMMELL: I didn?t. CAPTAIN HOLT: The doctor, you said . whispered to you that?that the drugs weren?t?weren't making it in. MS TRAMMELL: Right. CAPTAIN HOLT: And that is what you MS TRAMMELL: Or. said, I don?t exactly whal- terminology were, was. It may have been the blank-?I don't know. claps maybe? I don?t know exactly what. said but obviously there was a problem. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. We know that happened. You talked about-you talked about movements that was making. Were those movements after the administration, or at least the start of the administration of the second and third drugs? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. How would you describe--l mean, you described the movements. Would you say that they were-that they were violent movements? Were they light movements? How would you describe the movements-the movements that he was making. You talked about him raising up and down, raising his arm, raising his legs. MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: How would you describe that raising? MS TRAMMELL: He, I mean, he raised his--it looked like it was all at the same time. Tried to raise his feet, of course he couldn?t raise his feet much or his hands either. CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: I mean, I don?t know how to describe it. You know, to me, KWD 00750 was just like there was some kind of reaction to the drug. CAPTAIN HOLT: Would you say that it was as quick a movement as what you would see in a seizure? Was it trying to get some kind of baseline on how you would describe those movements. I mean we?re?you see what I?m saying? I?m-I?m trying to figure out. Are these violent movements? He?s over there in like he would be in a full seizure or where theyjust MS TRAMMELL: No, I mean, they were?they were, it was just--I mean a seizure I think is quick, quick moving. CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: recognize it as words? MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: just don?t remember now? MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: KWD CIV-14-665-F 00751 Mm?hmm. To me this wasn?t. Just?4 mean it was just odd. Okay. Youeyou said that he made some statement? Yes. But you don?t know what that statement is? Okay. But I recognize it, you know. I mean he-?whatever it was, it made sense, which earlier, he was just mumbling and that made no sense. Okay. So you could?-when you say you recognize it, you Yes. But?but you just don?t know what those words were? I can?t?mo, no. Okay. Did you know what they were at the time and you No. No iflremem--l just. [don't know what it was Okay. Did 41 TRAMMELL: It could have been what the media reported, but I?m not 100% sure. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: But that?s what--there would be other people I would think, that could verify what he said since there are so many people that heard it. I don?t know. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. You-~when you say other people that could verify, people that were in the room with you? MS TRAMMELL: People that were in the room and then the media were talking like they, you know, they heard what he said. I don?t know but, you know, there?s a lot of people from the office out there, the director, CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Did he ever, did he ever open his eyes? MS TRAMMELL: No. I didn?t see him open his eyes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I did notice though. at the beginning when-when it seemed like it took so long, I did notice that he opened his mouth. This was before any strange reaction CAPTAIN HOLT: Mm?hmm. MS TRAMMELL: he opened his mouth so that made me think well the medicine is working. forgot to mention that earlier. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: At the--after the point that the blinds are lowered, did he make any sounds or movement? MS TRAMMELL: I do not recall him making any sounds or any movements at all. KWD CIV-14-665-F 00752 42 CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And that?s what--you know, like I said I went back the next day and was asking my staff ?Did y?all see him? Or did-?to me it seemed like he wasn?t doing anything else,? and they all agreed. CAPTAIN HOLT: At the point where the-the blinds go down, orthe blinds are lowered, is that the point?how soon after that do you have your conversation on the phone with the director? Ms TRAMMELL: l-l tell- to get the director on the line so it took, you know, a little while just because he had to ?nd a con?dential, or quiet place to talk to me. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I think he had to step outside so maybe a couple minutes? CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And then he was in, I guess he was in consultation with other people ?cause he told me to hold on or he?d get back with me and was getting kind of impatient because I felt like I needed?I didn?t?l just wasn?t sure what to do next CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. When he asked you about how many drugs are left, do we have enough, those questions that you brought up earlier, is~is that during the very first conversation you have with him on the phone or is that after you think he had been talking? MS TRAMMELL: I think he asked me about the first drug and then I think, but I?m not 100% sure. It seems like he come back the second time we talked to verify that. So I asked the doctor again. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. What did he say to you when he first got on the phone? Did he make any statements? Was he only asking about the drugs? What- 00753 CIV-14-665-F 00754 what?s the conversation the first time that you talked to him? MS TRAMMELL: Just to kinda?I think I explained to him about what was going on with-with Lockett and the drugs and what we?what we seen and the doctor was saying about the veins. Of course, he didn?t know about all the dif?culties we were having with the veins originally so I explained where the-where the veins or where the IV was. you know, what we had looked at and so I explained all that to him. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Is it at that point or a different point that he had told you to stop or stand down or however he put it to you? What point?was that like on another conversation? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: And so it was a second conversation on the phone? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah because they were working trying to find another vein. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. So at that time, they being the doctor and the- MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: paramedic. They?re working to find a vein. ls?do you know what the plan is if they find another vein if there?s not many drugs left? Do you know-do you know what the conver?what?s the conversation in the room? MS TRAMMELL: Because the doctor, I mean, I kinda contradicted -. mear. said you know ?No, there?s not enough drugs left.? Then I said ?Well how am I supposed to know if there?s enough drugs left?? and so we didn?t have a plan. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I didn?t-didn?t know exactly what to do, but you could tell that the offender was, I mean to me, he was slowly dying because like I said about, 44 10 11 12 14 15 16 you know, .was measuring or monitoring his heart and the EKG just kept saying that, you know, it?s getting weaker and weaker CAPTAIN HOLT: The word that-the word the director used when he came back?did you ever talk to anybody else on the phone besides the director? Or does director ever come back to the chamber or was it always on the phone? MS TRAMMELL: I told him one time, mean- was the one that was handing him the phone. I said ?Get the director on the phone now. I need him now.? CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And I may have talked to Mr. Parker. I know that they?4 mean he had called and wanted me to call him. So I may have called him. I don?t recall calling him but I may have. CAPTAIN HOLT: Does the-does the director ever come back into the MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: all these conversations are going on? MS TRAMMELL: No, no. CAPTAIN HOLT: Does he tell you?you say that he uses a word to-to stop the execution. Did he say?is that word stay? Did he use the word ?We?re going to stay the execution? MS TRAMMELL: Absolutely not. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: He absolutely did not say we were gonna stay ?because he-he wouldn?t have the authority to call a stay of execution. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: wouldn?t think. KWD 00755 KWD CIV-14-665-F 00756 CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: But he didn?t use the word stay. CAPTAIN HOLT: Would?would you have that authority to stay an execu?on? MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: Is that a no? Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I would say the Governor would The Court of Criminal Appeals would. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. So the word stay is not?you?you don?t ever hear the word stay? IVIS TRAMMELL: No, cause CAPTAIN HOLT: On the phone? MS TRAMMELL: stay of execution is a legal term, in CAPTAIN HOLT: Mm-hmm. MS TRAMMELL: You know in my opinion it?s a legal term from the courts because it had no?that would have nothing to do with a procedural issue during the execution, That would be based on the appeals CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: something going wrong with a vein. Okay. Go ahead. I TROOPER LOGAN: So would you have the authority to stop an execu?on? MS TRAMMELL: Yes, based on the procedural issue. I could have stopped that execution or halted it until we went back and found another vein or made a determination if there was enough drugs, yes, TROOPER LOGAN: So in your opinion, 46 TRAMMELL: Go ahead. TROOPER LOGAN: we?ve done that already. MS TRAMMELL: Although, if you look at policy and I?ve really gone back and studied this policy since all this happened because we practiced hard. I mean hard. And?and we did everything by policy and that whole policy talks about everything right up to the execution and there?s about one paragraph about a stay and it says in there that when a?if a stay of exe-execution is ordered, then you get medical personnel to start life saving measures and I think that?s about it. So that?s all that this says. It doesn?t say?-?-lt doesn?t tell me what to do on?if you have a problem with a vein. I mean, it talks about using the cut ?-you know, you get the central line and if you can?t get that, then you do the cut down. TROOPER LOGAN: So have you ever had to stop an execution? MS TRAMMELL: No. No have not. TROOPER LOGAN: Under what circumstances would you have to stop an execution? MS TRAMMELL: This one. Circumstance like this. There was another offender named Johnny Black [ph. sp.] that we executed and the vein was watching collapsed and wasmjust beCause it puffed up real big, It was right?and he was an intravenous drug user and medical said his veins were fine, which they weren?t and it puffed up. His hand puffed up right here. And so I had someone watching that other side?no I didn?t. I didn?t and I walked around and everyone was wondering what I was doing, I assume, to check that other vein cause I was getting real nervous. ?Cause knew if that collapsed too, then we would have something like we had here happen. CAPTAIN HOLT: Did there?is there any, while we?re talking about stopping or halting, is there any plan in place where if the doctor or paramedic could not find a KWD CIV-14-665-F 00757 47 vein at all, what would be that plan? Let?s just say that, I know they?re having a hard time, is there any plan in place if theyjust can?t find one at all? MS TRAMMELL: There?s nothing in policy. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: No. I?m sure there will be now. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay so the word stay never comes from the director. You talk about stopping. Is there any conversation in the room, in the?in the execution chamber, about life saving efforts? MS TRAMMELL: I don?t think so. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. D--you ever hear any conversations where the physician makes a statement that they would have to take the offender to a hospital if they wanted to-to do life saving efforts? MS TRAMMELL: I don?t think so. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Not to say it didn?t happen. MS TRAMMELL: Yeah CAPTAIN HOLT: You didn?t hear it? MS TRAMMELL: I just don?t recall hearing that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. And?and just so I?m clear, for the audio, you heard not that they didn?t happen, but you didn?t hear conversations about life saving measures from the doctor, the paramedic, anybody in that room? MS TRAMMELL: We may have had a conversation about life saving measures. Whether we should start life saving measures. I?l just don?t recall 100% if we did or not. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. In your opinion, did covering the insertion point lead to part of not??if the insertion point hadn?t not been covered, do you think that the issue with the administration would have been found sooner? KWD CIV-14-665-F 00758 MS TRAMMELL: Yes. 2 CAPTAIN HOLT: Once Lockett was pronounced deceased by the doctor, 3 what are your actions then. I mean what as the warden, what did you do after he?s 4 pronounced? 5 MS TRAMMELL: I said get the director on the line. 6 CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. 7 MS TRAMMELL: And I told the 8 CAPTAIN HOLT: That he was deceased? 9 MS TRAMMELL: Yes. 10 CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. 11 MS TRAMMELL: And told him the time. 12 CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Any other 13 MS TRAMMELL: And then the director said that he wanted to talk to me- 14 and the?the doctor. 15 CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Did you go talk to him? 16 MS TRAMMELL: Yes. 17 CAPTAIN HOLT: Where?d that conversation take place? 18 MS TRAMMELL: In the witness, the viewing room. 19 CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. 20 MS TRAMMELL: It was-4 didn?t say anything. He talked to the doctor, but 21 all the people from the office, the cabinet secretary was standing there and then 22 my two staff. I had two staff standing in there?in there too. 23 CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. What was that conversation? Imean you?re sitting 24 there listening to it. What?what was the conversation back and forth? 25 MS TRAMMELL: I don?t know. 26 CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Don?t recall? Okay. OKWD CIV-14-665-F 00759 49 TRAMMELL: No, ?cause I went home that night and on the TV it said he had a massive heart attack and I thought where?d that come from? And so I went back ?cause I didn?t hear the doctor say that I recall him saying that so I asked my two staff that were in there, which was- and I said "Did the doctor say he had a heart attack?? They said ?Yes, he had a heart attack,? but I know- sure was on the line to the Dir?Governor?s office ant. was repeating everything back between the conversation between the doctor and the director. Repeating it back but then they just-4 can?t tell you exactly what was said. CAPTAIN HOLT: Did-did you and the director and other staff have a debrief after that night, after you left the-the execution chamber? MS TRAMMELL: We met back in my office. I mean, it?s not what you?d call a normal debriefing but yeah. I mean, we talked about everything. I mean, we didn?t talk about everything but we talked about a few things the director said that we?ll change poiicy and Mr. Parker was asking about doing the damn report. You know, and, you know we knew there was a lot of things that went wrong, CAPTAIN HOLT: Was there any conversation in that debrief about not viewing the insertion site? MS No. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Not that I can recall. i mean, we didn?t go into specifics ?cause there?s-we just didn?t. i mean the director knew. i mean he knew that there was some serious mistakes made or it wouldn?t have happened like that. Usually when have a debrie?ng, I don?t do it that evening anyway ?cause not all the staff is there. I don?t it, mean, I may go back into my office and something that we did could have done better. I?ll make notes and then I?ll pull all the staff in?in a day or two. I like to give staff a little bit to unwind and get this out of their system. It?s not an easy thing KWD 00760 5 0 to do for anybody. CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: night? MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: MS TRAMMELL: KWD 00761 CAPTAIN HOLT: Mm-hmm. And the department is fixing to find that out ?cause they're gonna start involving a lot of other staff besides me. The-the executioners, the EMPT, I know that they received payment for their~for their?for their role. Yeah. Does the physician receive payment as well? Yes. Okay. DO you know how much they were all paid that $600 a piece I assume. Okay. I?m not 100% sure ?cause I?m never involved in that. Okay. But I think that?s normal, per execution. And the doctor may get paid more. I don?t really know. Okay. Do you know if they would?ve been paid for both? Yeah they were paid for both. They were paid for both? Well I know the doctor was ?cause I got blood all over hisjacket and I mean, it was a bloody mess. I was complaining about that. - - say- gotta get enough money out of this to go buy a new jacket. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. But I think they all got paid for both of them. Okay. Okay, do you have follow ups? 51 TROOPER LOGAN: You may have?I?m gonna jump around a little bit here and you may have answered this earlier. MS TRAMMELL: Okay. . TROOPER LOGAN: You contact the doctor and the phlebotomistyou contact them? MS TRAMMELL: i don?t contact them. does Okay- does. MS TRAMMELL: it?s usually after we have the 30 day-30 day TROOPER LOGAN: no??ca?on. TROOPER LOGAN: So we could say within that 30 day period? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah, then .turns around and contacts them again within the week of or you know, the week before to make sure that their all still on for it. TROOPER LOGAN: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I did conta--l?ve never made contacts on any of it but I contacted the pharmacist just ?cause i had been talking to the pharmacist about the prescription. That sort of thing, TROOPER LOGAN: Okay, you had mentioned a--at one time that mental and medical, they go by Lockett?s cell to check on him. MS TRAMMELL: Mm~hmm. TROOPER LOGAN: And at seven days prior to execution they are going by MS TRAMMELL: Mm-hmm. TROOPER LOGAN: to check on him? What?s your understanding of what these checks are and how they?re supposed to be conducted or how they?re conducted? KWD 00762 52 TRAMMELL: Yeah, mental health goes by and just checks on him and has a conversation with him and if?if they feel like there are some issues, they may pull him out but if he just gives ?em a thumbs up or that he?s doing good then they?ll just leave it at that. Medical, not sure if they pull the offender out. I mean, they would have to check his--well I would think-?to check his veins. They may just check at the cell. It?s probably what?s part of the problem. I mean, I?m not real happy with the medical, to tell you the truth. TROOPER LOGAN: So as far as you know, to your assumption, they're pulling him out the morning of? MS TRAMMELL: Well they are, yes. TROOPER LOGAN: Or the day MS TRAMMELL: Well?well I know TROOPER LOGAN: you received an email but as far as daily? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah, I?m not sure they?re pulling him out daily. They may just be going up to his cell but I mean the day of, we pull him out and do an x-ray. TROOPER LOGAN: Okay. So as daily, you aren?t really certain as to how medical is conducting their checks? MS TRAMMELL: Right. TROOPER LOGAN: Okay. The notes that?that you were referring back to which is the execution process, when did you make those? MS TRAMMELL: It was not long after the execution. TROOPER LOGAN: Okay and are those made just kind of from wrote memory? MS TRAMMELL: Memory. TROOPER LOGAN: Okay. KWD CIV-14-665-F 00763 53 TRAMMELL: Yeah. TROOPER LOGAN: So the execution that's taking place, you realize that there?s a problem and at some point, it?s stopped. How does-how do the executioners know to stop? MS TRAMMELL: Because I'm sure -told them. I TROOPER LOGAN: How?how would - know to tell them to stop? MS TRAMMELL: Because I seen us lower the blinds. TROOPER LOGAN: Okay, so is MS TRAMMELL: I mean they?re- making an observation of everything that?s going on. TROOPER LOGAN: Okay so MS TRAMMELL: I mean I say that?~l don?t know what I said exactly. I think I said something but don?t know. I mean they could tell you if I said anything. TROOPER LOGAN: So would that be I call once the blinds go down to tell the executioners to stop? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. TROOPER LOGAN: Or is that your call? MS TRAMMELL: No it?s I. TROOPER LOGAN: Okay. Did the MS TRAMMELL: Well now l?l mean, let me back up there. TROOPER LOGAN: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I mean, that's no. responsibility, but .?-well I?m assuming again~?that, I mean, I seeing everything that was going on. i mean I seen the doctor, I assume. I don?t think I said-l don?t think I said anything so that would probably be my responsibility, not TROOPER LOGAN: Wejust don?t know if anybody in the room ever KWD 00764 54 TWD 00765 says?. MS TRAMMELL: Right. TROOPER stop. MS TRAMMELL: Mm?hmm. TROOPER LOGAN: Okay. Does the doctor-~now the shades have gone MS TRAMMELL: I mean, we immediately unlocked that door. That was when the shades come down, that doors unlocked and the EMT comes out. I mean, if you?re thinking they?re sitting there pushing the drugs, you know, they're not ?cause that doors open. They know it?s stopped. TROOPER LOGAN: Okay. 80 the shades have gone down, the door is unlocked. The EMT comes out. At any time do they start looking for another IV site? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. That?s what they were doing. TROOPER LOGAN: MS TRAMMELL: ?Cause I went back to that-to the left side. The groin where. had originally started and couldn?t get it and that?s where that blood squirted up and got all over-jacket then. So. was looking there. I was pushing around trying to find something there and - was looking at his arms and yeah. They were looking. TROOPER LOGAN: And what is the purpose of looking for another IV site? MS TRAMMELL: Because we didn't get a stay. There was not a stay. We just had a malfunction. We had a issue and so we wanted to continue with the execution. I mean, that was our goal. That was our instructions was to execute that offender and that?s--that was what we were doing. TROOPER LOGAN: Well, if you already talked about this I missed it. 55 When you guys are exiting the execution room kinda what is your procedure on that evening for securing that room? How?how do you?how do you guys secure everything in that room? MS TRAMMELL: For a normal execution? TROOPER LOGAN: No, for this one. MS TRAMMELL: This one? TROOPER LOGAN: Just for this one? MS TRAMMELL: l-l walk out with the-the doctor. 80. I mean we have to have everyone clear it out for_ to take the executioners out but have a--the key control officer. I assume. looks it up, but I?m not 100% sure. IT may be- . ?cause. has keys too. But we?-l don?t know 100% how that got secured. TROOPER LOGAN: So in this case, once that was secured, you gave instructions for. . . MS TRAMMELL: No I didn?t give instructions. TROOPER LOGAN: Okay, but once it was secured, did you tell nobody? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah I did. TROOPER LOGAN: else to enter that room? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. It wasn?t that night. It was the next day because I told the unit manager, remember? You know we didn?t?l didn?t put it writing. It was verbal. TROOPER LOGAN: Right. MS TRAMMELL: I put it in writing the day you guys got there. TROOPER LOGAN: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Cause they had talked about going back and cleaning and doing an inventory of everything. I said just leave it exactly like it is. KWD 00766 5 6 TROOPER LOGAN: Okay. CAPTAIN HOLT: Did you-did you-did you overhear any conversations between the doctor and the paramedic about them not having the correct tools they needed for the IV insertion? MS TRAMMELL: I heart. say that. had to connect. Seemed like. said. had to make some connections with the IV line. CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: Okay. I heard - say that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Did you ever Ms TRAMMELL: Yeah we had to-- had to borrow some stuff from our medical. That?s right, - did. Three-three needles. Three syringes or something?? certain sizes that- said leeded. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay would that have been for the saline? Do you remember if that was for the saline injections or not? MS TRAMMELL: don?t-l don't-- didn't know what that was for but yeah. There was some conversation about that. I forgot about that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Did you ever hear any conversations between the two of them about not having the correct size needles to do certain procedures or to-- in an attempt to access certain veins? MS TRAMMELL: Well I know, I mean, that?s what. had asked for is certain sized needles. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And that was provided by our medical, so I thought that?s what .was asking for. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. You talked about-you talked about that one offender that you had observed his execution, that he blew a vein in his arm. KWD 00767 .57 KWD CIV-14-665-F 00768 MS TRAMMELL: Mm-hmm. CAPTAIN HOLT: What-what took place after that? Once you saw that that happened, was??what would the actions of the doctor and or the paramedic during that one to alleviate that situation? MS TRAMMELL: Nothing, because we had the vein in the other arm. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay so there was two that time? Okay. During any of the other executions that you?ve been a part of at OSP, has there ever been any other problems that you?ve ran into vein access problems? MS TRAMMELL: (inaudible response) CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Was that always on the front end or were there ever any vein access problems in the middle of? MS TRAMMELL: No it was on the front end. CAPTAIN HOLT: On the front end? Okay. And I?m assuming they were always able MS TRAMMELL: Well, one offender they wasn?t able to get one arm but they got the other so we just had one. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. How many times?so this isn?t your first time either where there?s just one line going MS TRAMMELL: Right- CAPTAIN HOLT: body during that? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I mean we have a plan. It?s not policy, but a plan and we talked with you guys about the pencils and the colored pencils and if we have problem, you know, if they have a problem on their end, then they?ll?4 think it?s the red pencil?~that they?ll stick out for me to say stop and then we?ll lower the blinds. Same 58 thing on my end. I mean, normally the pencils have to do with them but not me. But I mean you can stop that execution and then go back and secure the vein and that?s probably what we should?ve done here. But with this new drug and not knowing if there was enough left or if there was enough in his system. You know itjust didn?t know-?just didn?t know what to do on it. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And we don?t have anything in policy that tells us what to. Nothing. The department doesn?t. The Department issues the OP, operations policy. Y?all-y?all got a copy of that? You should have. It?s about eight pages and it mentions nothing about it. So we get our instructions like that. It?s a bible then we go back and write the policy to fit the facility which would be the execution course. But there?s nothing. There?s no direction or anything. I mean yeah. Did I make some mistakes? I did. Did the department make mistakes? Yes the department did make mistakes and the director has realized that. I mean he, you know, I hate that he came in when he did. This is his first one. I hate it. You know I hate it for OSP, ?cause we--when something goes wrong at OSP, its usually pretty bad and we get bad press over it. And then when the Direc??l mean the Governor, you know, ordered two executions in one night, you know I thought we were good to go. You know, we rehearsed and I told my staff this is our time to make that directOr shine, the Governor shine, the state shine because the, you know, all the publicity surrounding this. And I never ever dreamed that it would go south and i felt all the weight of everything on my shoulders. I did. And I felt like I failed and i talked to David about it and then going back and looking at policy and-and coming in. When I interviewed with our Associate Director, he said ?You believe in execution?? I said ?Yeah, I never wanted to have anything to do with it but, you know, I don?t have anything against it.? But you just get thrown into it. The policy says you have on the job training. I mean, who does that? You know KWD CIV-14-665-F 00769 59 for?-taking, killing a person. You know? That?s what we do is kill a person but its expected for the warden and the warden?s staff to kill?kill these people day in and day out and then go back and talk shop. Or no one wants to hear about it in our department till we got the new director. And ltoldghim, if it wasn?t for him, Ivvould probably already be gone cause no one wants to know anything about the execution. They just want the warden to take care of it. And our associate director, the policy tell this when the tape recorders off. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. What?? MS TRAMMELL: Not till then. CAPTAIN HOLT: What you?you said that?~there was two statements that you made. You said that-that you made mistakes, plural, and that the department did. Will you outline what mistakes you felt like that you made? MS TRAMMELL: Okay. What I would do differently next time andll?ve never done this in the past, but the day of the execution we need to check the offenders? veins. The day of the execution. ?Cause we checked ?em Friday and they said they were good, exclamation mark. Two days later or three, there was no veins. Now how--is that possible? I don?t know. Is it possible for a person not to eat and drink or at least drink and have every vein in their body where they can?t get an I don?t know. That?s a question for a doctor, but the department needs to come up with if?if they have bad veins and they?re gonna have this nationwide. ?Cause a lot of these guys are drug users or they?re going to deliberately dehydrate themselves. I mean it?s already happened in other states and the offenders try to do it in our state. Well he was successful. They need to either hook up an IV or do a port. We need to do something instead ofjust, you know, keep punching the inmate and poking him until you find a vein? CAPTAIN HOLT: So was that a department mistake or a warden mistake? KWD CIV-14-665-F 00770 60 (TKWD 00771 MS TRAMMELL: That?s my mistake for not checking on the IV. It?s the department?s mistake for not having another plan in place. Which we had the cut down. I thought that was, you know, fool proof. I mean I thought you cut down and you--l mean I?ve never seen a cut down, CAPTAIN HOLT: Is it your opinion that a cut down was done. MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Cause I opened the kit and .was up there working on him. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I mean I may have told you something different. CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: Cause I heard I say can?t get it. i can't get it? CAPTAIN HOLT: What other mistakes would you say that?that you, as the warden, made? MS TRAMMELL: Was not--the mistakes I made was not researching the drugs. Relying on my legal department and the AG's of?ce like I did to just sign in a policy when I didn?t write the damn thing. Just trusting and not--l mean--just?just taking, just accepting ownership for something this big without the department?s support. Except for this new director. CAPTAIN HOLT: How about in the execution chamber itself. Would you say that anything MS TRAMMELL: Yes, you know, I should?ve done something different with, you know, what I could?ve done instead of. I mean I think I needed the sheet on him cause you would have seen his privates, but the d--l could?ve put the doctor over there beside him. Move that EKG where .could raise it up--where .could watch 61 should?ve done that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Any?ado you feel like there was any other mistakes made by you during or after the execution? MS TRAMMELL: The-?l mean in addition to and I talked to David about it is that--l should?ve realized that our policy does not tell us what to do when something goes south. You know, like everything else does. It doesn?t tell us that. HOLT: Okay. Let us--we?re gonna stop recording at KWD CIV-14-665-F 00772 62 *irzkak-k TRANSCRIPT OF RECORDED INTERVIEW OF ANITA TRAMMELL BY CAPTAIN JASON HOLT TROOPER KEVIN LOGAN CASE NUMBER 14-01898I ON JUNE 2014, AT 3:44 PM. IKWD CIV-14-665-F 00773 (TUND 00774 LEGEND: MS TRAMMELL: ANITA TRAMMELL MR CINCOTTA: DAVID CINCOTTA CAPTAIN HOLT: CAPTAIN JASON HOLT TROOPER LOGAN: TROOPER KEVIN LOGAN CAPTAIN HOLT: This is Captain Jason Holt. We are back on recording at The same four participants are in the room. Can?Warden, can you please clarify the physician that took place--or that took part in this execution, had you been made aware prior to that day that. was gonna be the physician that was gonna be attending the execution? MS TRAMMELL: I?m not--l don?t remember if- told me or not. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I'm sure. did tell me. I mean I can't see. not telling me. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. So you don?t know how-how long prior to the day of that-that they had actuain substitute- MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: one? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: You don?t know how long that was? Okay. Had?had you ever worked with that doctor before? MS TRAMMELL: I don?t think so. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Who is responsible at OSP for putting-4 know you told us when we-when we came for our visitnfor putting the orange boxes together with~with the tools inside. Who?s responsible for putting those together? 10 11 12 13 MS TRAMMELL: Well I have my medical staff and Regina. They do the inventories of it. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. To your knowledge, is-is that the same tools that- that they?ve used-?or the same inventory of tools-~that they?ve used for at least, de?nitely since you?ve been there? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Prior to that, would you say that you make any changes to that tool inventory when you got there as warden? MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: You-you said that when we started going over the IV insertion placement when they were started on the arms, they couldn?t get anything there and I believe you said that one of them had started to-to look for veins on his feet? MS TRAMMELL: Mm-hmm. CAPTAIN HOLT: And that you made a comment that to make it his right foot? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah I mean if they found-if there was one on each, the right foot would be easier for me to observe. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. so you knew as they?re making those IV insertions that you?re wanting to observe that on the right foot, but th-then make the decision that, you can?t make the observation of the insertion on his-his groin. Would that be-? let me break that question up. It?s a long question. Did you ask. to go to right foot so you could observe the IV if- was able to get placement there? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Would that place normally be covered? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. KWD 00775 CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. It- would have gained access into our right foot, if you made a comment about watching it, would you have left the right foot uncovered? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. You made a statement earlier that the Director, or that-that the Director had previous experience with the use of Midazolam MS TRAMMELL: Mm-hmm. CAPTAIN HOLT: Do you know where he had that experience from? Ms TRAMMELL: State of Arizona. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Do you know that they had used--if they had used drug in Arizona? I mean, had he made that statement to you that ?We?ve used this and here?s what you need to expect"? MS TRAMMELL: I assume that?s-yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. You talk about going overthe-the plan. The let?s wait five minutes and check, two minutes and check until looked up the information to see what the effects were or was it just a general idea that this was gonna be slower? MS TRAMMELL: The Director and I had a CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: he told me it was gonna be a slower, a lot slower than the Phenobarbital. CAPTAIN HOLT: Do you know what he based that opinion on? Whether that was research he had done? Did he tell you if that opinion was based on research or if that was on experience? MS TRAMMELL: I-I think it was based on experience. . CAPTAIN HOLT: Did you personally go out and read any medical KWD 00776 information related to MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN its effects? Did you consult with any medical personnel prior to that day about the effects of Midazolam? MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Was there any conversation between you and the physician and the Did you ask them any questions of what their opinion was? MS TRAMMELL: I don?t know if I asked them their opinion. They gave their opinion. The doctor CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And .said with that amount, . should--there shouldn?t be any problems with him being unconscious. .felt like he?d be unconscious pretty quickly. CAPTAIN HOLT: Did the paramedic give any?any statements related like that? MS TRAMMELL: I don?t remember. I mean, they had conversations about it. Like I said, they were referring to it as a different drug-4 mean a different name of the drug, but ljust recall what .said. ljust know they had a conversation but I can?t tell you exactly what-said. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Did the Doctor ever use a medical term when I tells you whats-whats wrong or that it wasn?t ma~?that those drugs weren?t making it into his system after .lifts the sheet? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: What did. tell you, medically, had happened? Did MS TRAMMELL: . used a term [wasn?t familiar with so I asked - to KWD 00777 11 12 13 14 00778 de?ne it am. said it was absorbed into his tissue. I can?t recall what that-that term was. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And that wasn?t during the execution. I mean that was- was when-~after we had lowered the blinds. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: That?s when was on the line with the Director. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. When .?-soon after. lifts the sheet, did I make any statements about a blow vein, the needle fell out? Did I make any statements related to what. opinion was of why those drugs weren?t making it into his bloodstream? MS TRAMMELL: I-l don?t remember exactly what mean, I can-~let me look in my notes ?cause I just did this like a day or two after (unintelligible). The doctor whispered to the warden that the drugs were not going to his body. That?s what I wrote down a few days after the execution. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: So I--but still, I couldn?t swear. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: ..,that that?s exactly the word! used. CAPTAIN HOLT: What?-tell me, cause we had you answering some questions about cut down. Tell me what your understanding of what that procedure is. MS TRAMMELL: On a cut down? CAPTAIN HOLT: Mm-hmm. MS TRAMMELL: Where they, you know, where it?s the actual like a little surgery. You know .gave him the shot and then they--l thought that you used that 6 little scalpel and cut the offender to get to the vein, but to me didn?t?I didn?t see actually we talked about it the next day and one?one of the staff members says to me ?That didn?t look I did a cut down during the process.? I though. did a cut down. CAPTAIN HOLT: Do you know which staff member that was you had the conversation with? MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I mean there were~~we were all in there that was doing- that was in the chamber. - the one that said that in my office ?cause. was standing up, so apparently from there .seen it. - was standing up to. I may have seen more. CAPTAIN HOLT: Would it ever be a warden?s decision to?to go something like a cut down or is that made by the medical staff in the room? MS TRAMMELL: Well I would think it would, I mean it could be either one but I think it would be the warden. But like I said, I though. did a cut down. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: ?Cause .was using the cut down kit. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Would-~is it something, is there anything in protocol where .would have to ask permission to do that? MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Hmm-mm. CAPTAIN HOLT: I wanna clarify, I don?t know how clear we were on describing Lockett?s movements. MS TRAMMELL: Yeah. CAPTAIN HOLT: After the second drug was started to be administered. KWD 00779 KWD 00780 You?you talk about, and you even explain a little bit, that he tried to move his hands. The word try sometimes, to me, elicits a voluntary response. That he voluntarily was trying to do that. Do you know for sure that he was making voluntary movements? Do you think they were involuntary movements? MS TRAMMELL: l-l don?t know if it was voluntary or involuntary. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I do not know. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: But it wasn?t like what the media was reporting, violent and thrashing around jerking and all that. I didn?t--it was not like that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: In my opinion, what I seen. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Have-have, in your conversations with-with your staff, has anybody made a determination amongst yourselves on what you feel went wrong with this execution? What?what is that general observation at the prison of what went wrong with this execution? MS TRAMMELL: Well I mean I don?t--you mean with the prison staff? Is that what you?re saying? CAPTAIN HOLT: M8 TRAMMELL: I mean I CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: I can tell you with myself. CAPTAIN HOLT: Well I would say thatnl?m trying not to necessarily de?ne-- what would you say?what would you say led to the execution process being as, taking as long as it did? MS TRAMMELL: It didn?t-l didn?t have a secure vein. I didn?t?. didn?t 8 KWD 00781 place that needle in the vein like I should have. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Would--is there anything else besides the IV insertion or not having the needle placed in the vein as it should have been? Is there anything else that, in that room, that led to the process taking that long based on your observations? MS TRAMMELL: Well we, I mean, we didn?t know anything about the drug, so I mean, now what are you asking? CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay let me ask you this. Do you know for certain whether or not the first-the first drug is the only new drug to this three drugs, correct? MS TRAMMELL: Mm-hmm. CAPTAIN HOLT: Are you certain that only the ?rst drug was taken into Lockett?s system as-as it was intended to be? MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Can you say whether or not. with that being the fact, whether or not him taking several minutes to go unconscious versus what?s normal with other drugs~~if that is because that?s because that?s just the way that drug is or if because it was not all taken into the bloodstream? MS TRAMMELL: l?I wouldn?t know. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, so you?re not certain either way? MS TRAMMELL: Right. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. I?m still, and I think?I think- as well, a little unclear on protocol. Protocol says that, not saying you specifically but the warden?s-warden?s responsibility to choose a drug combination that?s gonna be used. Let me ask this in several steps. Did you make this decision alone? MS TRAMMELL: No. Ididn?t make it at all. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. TRAMMELL: made zero decision on the drugs. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Then l?m still trying to figure out who made that decision to use those specific drugs for this execution. Did it come from the office? MS TRAMMELL: I was in--there was a meeting. Mr. Parker, my boss, had a meeting. That?s when the organizational chart Was changed, I have the date right here if you want it. You want it? I CAPTAIN HOLT: Yeah if you have it. The organizational chart to include' the new director? I MS TRAMMELL: Yeah, because of the new director. CAPTAIN. HOLT: Okay, okay. MS TRAMMELL: Yeah I think it was dated--well it was the date on that first policy, 3/21 lthink. I?m not sure. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Yeah, anyway so was in his office with all of his wardens and Mike Oakley [ph. sp.] come in there and he need thenrequested a copy of the old FM and he had called Regina and she said that he needed to ask me first. So I said yeah I don?t have a problem with that. So then he asked me to come to office when I get out of his office when I get out of the meeting. That he was working on policy with the office and revising the policy with the new drug protocols and he asked me to come to his office. I said okay. So I did and he was working with the office on it and so he said it was gonna be awhile so I left. I went and ate and come back and they were still working on it. Then he printed it up and handed it to me and told me to look at it and I said I am trusting you and the office on these drug protocols I because i don?t know anything about the drugs or the amount of drugs or the dosage have no knowledge of the drugs and I signed the FM. signed it and so that was DKWD CIV-14-665-F 00782 10 mailed it back and then there was some more correspondence. And then on 4/11 I was off with and I was on the phone a lot with work that Friday, whichl dunno what day that was, was off out at my parent's. I was mowing and weed eating. Went and checked my phone there was calls at 3:30 from the facility. 80 I called the facility and it was Regina. The of?ce, according to her--we l Mike, he was off too, wanted me to come in and sign this revised policy on a Friday afternoon and I said no. I?m not going up there. ljust signed one policy so I figured I was gonna get my hand slapped Monday, but I didn?t. No on even knew anything about it. 80 Monday, I got the policy. It was revised for the second time, you know. there was a mistake and the mistake was the dosage of the Midazolam and you got that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Mm-hmm. MS TRAMMELL: And so I signed the damn thing. I did not write that policy. I did not choose those drugs. CAPTAIN Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I didn?t know-I didn?t know anything about the drugs. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. 80, Mike Oakley was the representative from the DOC. that was involved in that process. Do you know who from the office he was meeting with? MS TRAMMELL: That I don?t know. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. You want me to follow on that part before One of the ?nal parts I wanna make sure that we clear up is the-the stop of the execution. I understand that-that you said earlier that the director told you. to stop, halt, stand down, whatever-whatever that conversation was. ljust wanna ask, and I think we?ve answered it so, but I?m just gonna ask again so we can make sure that we clear it up. Why was life saving measures not given to Lockett after the KWD 00783 I I OKWD 00784 (unintelligible)? MS TRAMMELL: Because he did not get a stay of execution. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: On a stay of execution, you try everything you can for life saving measures because that comes from the courts. This was a procedural error that took place. It wasn?t a stay of execution. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: Big difference. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. If a stay had been issued. would you have then attempted life saving measures? MS TRAMMELL: Yes. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Do you know what those would have been if a stay would have been issued? MS TRAMMELL: Well we got that AED machine. We would have used that. We?ve got a?-the blue bag contains some of that material and if we had to we?d take him to the hospital. We have another doctor outside. We would have done whatever we had to do. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Was there ever conversation that?about taking him to the hospital? MS TRAMMELL: I do not recall the doctor saying that. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I mean, that?s what you mentioned earlier? You thought the doctor said that? -may have but if. I had, I wouldn?t have taken Lockett to the hospital. I would not have. I mean, in my opinion, from the way that doctor was acting and what. was saying about his heart beat and his EKG, he was dying and obviously he did. He did?he did not have a massive heart attack. He did not ?cause I 12 was right there. He just slowly died. But no, I would not have taken him to the hosp?al CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay, do you know??did you hear any D.O.C. staff tell the doctor or the paramedic that he would not be taking to the hospital? MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: You-you stated that you know for sure that he did not have a heart attack and then of course, you know I don?t know medically what all is MS TRAMMELL: Well a massive heart attack as reported on the media the next-~you know, when I got home?he had a massive heart attack. Is a heart attack where your heart stops beating? That happened, yes. Obviously it?did. Was that wrong that he died? Was it wrong? . CAPTAIN HOLT: Do??when you say MS TRAMMELL: It wasn?t wrong that he died. The, you know, should it have taken that long? No. Was there mistakes made? Yes, but it was the ultimate goal was to execute the offender. The Governor didn?t?she didn?t issue a stay. The Court of Criminal Appeals didn?t issue a stay. No one issued a stay of execution. CAPTAIN HOLT: I guess why I?m asking that question is~is~is medically, I understand on?on the outside, his reaction that you didn?t see maybe anything that would?that would make you think that he was having a massive heart attack. Can you say certain, MS TRAMMELL: Well no. he did not have a massive heart attack? CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: No. KWD CIV-14-665-F 00785 13 CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I cannot. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: No. I mean, he may have had a massive heart attack, but I sure don?t think he did. CAPTAIN HOLT: You have anything real quick Kevin? ls??can you think of anything?we?ve asked you a lot of questions today-?can you think of anything questions we have not asked you that might be important for us to get the information . to for us to complete our investigation? MS TRAMMELL: You haven?t asked any questions about the protocol. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: You know, I mean, I think we do need to talk about that a little bit more. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: You know, I mean the protocol tells us what to do up to and then administering the drugs. I mean, but if you look at our FM, it specifically goes into great detail of what we do to get the offender prepared. CAPTAIN HOLT: You say FM. What MS TRAMMELL: Our Field Memorandum. CAPTAIN HOLT: Field Memorandum. Okay. MS TRAMMELL: The OSP policy. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: I mean it talks about the 30 day notification and the meetings and inviting the people to attend and then what we do and move them to the high max and you do all of this and then you administer the drugs. And then if he gets a stay, you start life saving measures and that?s it. There?s nothing in that policy, at KWD CIV-14-665-F 00786 14 all, or the 0.0.0. policy that?s reviewed and updated every year about anything that-- what you do when something goes wrong. There is no training and--weil the training that it talks about is on the job training, you know. That?s what I got. it?s all on the job training frorr- Now how did I know what. was doing was correct? i don?t know ?cause that?s wha. told me. That?s on the job training. So you?you have to have trust that what .tells you is accurate, which I did. But did I get any training on what to do except, well you know, with the little red and green, yellow pencil that comes out. That?s~that?s all the training I?ve had. 80 if I had had, if it was in black and white on what to do, I would have been prepared, because I prepared prior to on everything. And it?s pretty apparent. prepared all my staff on what to do from what the policy says to do and we trained and we trained and we trained. Do we train on anything that, if it goes south? None, no training. But how?how would-- mean I guess I could go research, Google it, you know. I don?t know. I mean how would you find out what to do? How would you ask? Who would ask without this new director in our department? There?s no one in this department that would know what to do besides this new director ?cause no one?s involved. No one wants to know. It?s all on the warden?s shoulders. Just like writing this FM. You know, why is that a big deal about--for whoever wrote the FM to come clean and say they wrote the damn CAPTAIN HOLT: Do you feel like that the-that the FM or the memorandum is too cumbersome? Not cumbersome enough? Needs to be added to? I mean MS TRAMMELL: Well they?re completely revamping it. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: And I've been left out of that process because, with this director and he?ll probably tell you tomorrow, that he-he wants the responsibility for the execution to be with him and his staff. It shouldn?t be all on the warden?s shoulders- 00787 warden and warden?s staff at OSP. That?s how it has always been, as far as I know, at OSP. So, when I come in, especially being a female I couldn?t say I can?t do this. I couldn't do that. CAPTAIN HOLT: So how man-how many executions did you have OJT on before you?re the warden over the execution? MS TRAMMELL: Two. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay so you had two were you watched. Who did-who did you watch? MS TRAMMELL: - [ph. sp.] CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. So that was when you ?rst got there? MS TRAMMELL: Yeah and the first one was--it was just shocking, shocking. Sit there and watch a man die. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Do-do they walk you through step by step as--I guess define OJT. What?what all does that OJT entail? I mean, is that walking through step by step? Now you do this, now you do that? Are you over there taking notes while you're there? How?how does this OJT work? MS TRAMMELL: Well. I mean, - just, you know, I went to all the meetings. I read the policy. I was in there in the execution chamber. I mean, I went to the training, the strap down and all that. I explained everything to me and then I just shadowed I just observed. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. MS TRAMMELL: That's it. CAPTAIN HOLT: Do they MS TRAMMELL: And-and I explained that about the pencils, you know, but there was never any-any training on what we would do in a situation like this. CAPTAIN HOLT: Do you know if a situation like this has occurred before KWD CIV-14-665-F 00788 16 since the state of Oklahoma had started lethal injection? MS TRAMMELL: I don?t know. I don?t think so. I know that they?ve had to cut down ?cause -seen the cut down and so, I mean, they've had to do out downs before but, no. CAPTAIN HOLT: Did the person that was giving you the on the job training. doe-have to sign off on you and say "Yes, she?s ready?? What-what?s the process of going from?what?s the process of saying ?Okay she needs to watch two? versus ?Well I think she needs to watch two more.? MS TRAMMELL: There is no process. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay- MS TRAMMELL: I mean it?sjust--it?s nothing formal. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. IVIS TRAMMELL: As it probably should be and I?m sure it will be in the future with the new director. TROOPER LOGAN: Do you feel like you have-had all of the tools necessary? MS TRAMMELL: No. TROOPER LOGAN: Okay, in saying no, what do you feel like you needed? MS TRAMMELL: Well when I first got there no??like I said earlier-mo one even knew what the other person did. No one. I mean it was not black and white. Everything was all secrecy. Think its secrecy now, it was really secrecy then. And so . I had them go--l mean I had-we had so many new people in place, no one knew what- no one knew what to do. It was ridiculous, you know? I mean we had few little hiccups along the way, nothing major, nothing major. Nothing, no one even knew anything about it until we debriefed and I mean. I knew a few things went wrong and 00789 17 10 11 12 25 26 so did other people, but we didn?t have anything in writing. And so that?s the one thing i did and i had everybody??except for me ?cause I knew what I was supposed should have already had it donenput step by step and you guys have that. So that?s one thing that we did, made the changes. And then we just-we did all the training. We had everything in place up until it it goes wrong in the execution chamber. I mean we had it in place if it goes wrong with the executioners, with pushing the drugs but we didn?t have anything in place--and that?s not in writing. That?s with the pencils. But we didn?t have anything in place if it went--goes wrong once it goes to the body or to the, you know, insertion. Maybe that?s my fault for not having that, you know. HOLT: Did you have any conversations with anybody before this interview that affected any way that you needed to answer any of our questions? MS TRAMMELL: No. CAPTAIN HOLT: Okay. Anything else? TROOPER LOGAN: MS TRAMMELL: Well actually, l?I did meet with David and was telling him Hmm-mm. everything that should've done differently and thats when we talked about the protocol and the policy and I went back and looked at the policy. I really, really studied the policy, ?cause I just feit like that was just totally at fault. That everything was my fault on this and then after, you know, he said ?You need to look at the policy. Look at the protocol.? And once, you know, once I started looking at that, i thought, you know, the department failed as well because we didn?t have anything in place. So the only thing that happened. But as far as coaching on what to say and?? no. I mean I think I kind of told the truth, as ugly as it is. CAPTAIN HOLT: I circled one other thing. Very early on you said that this was a lot of ?rsts for a lot of people. definitely a lot of KWD 00790 18 frecording at KWD CIV-14-665-F 00791 MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: MS TRAMMELL: CAPTAIN HOLT: people. Do you feel like that with this being their first time to do this, did any of that play into any problem with the execution? No. Okay. No, they all did a really good job I thought. Okay I think that is it for this interview. We will go off 19