Case 9:03-cv-81110-DTKH Document 154-14 Entered on FLSD Docket 07/15/2011 Page 1 of 7 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 The Videotaped deposition of SUSAN WELKOS, Ph.D. was held on Wednesday, November 3, 2010, commencing at 10:28 a.m., at the U.S. Department of Justice, Environmental Torts Section, Torts Branch, Civil Division, 1331 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., Room 8021S, Washington, D.C. 20004, before George W. Tudor, Notary Public. REPORTED BY: George W. Tudor U.S. EXHIBIT PC-13 vs. UNITED STATES OF AMERICA Defendant ________________________________/ MAUREEN STEVENS, as Personal Representative of the Estate of ROBERT STEVENS, Deceased, and on behalf of MAUREEN STEVENS, Individually, NICHOLAS STEVENS, HEIDI HOGAN and CASEY STEVENS, Survivors Plaintiffs UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA CASE NUMBER: 9:03-cv-81110-CIV-HURLEY/HOPKINS All Florida Reporting, Inc. 800-898-7373 Case 9:03-cv-81110-DTKH Document 154-14 Entered on FLSD Docket 07/15/2011 Page 2 of 7 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q Q A Q A Q A . And what is your date of birth? . Dr. Welkos, you probably heard off the Department of Justice, for the United States. MR. WELLONS: General Counsel. MR. MILLER: Detrick, Maryland. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: please swear in the witness? Whereupon, SUSAN WELKOS, Ph.D., called as a witness, having been first duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows: EXAMINATION BY MR. SCHULER: Would you state your name, please? Susan Welkos. What is your address, Dr. Welkos? Home address? Yes, please. , Will the court reporter Jeffrey B. Miller, for Fort Paul Wellons, FBI Office of record that my name is Richard Schuler, and I represent the family of Robert Stevens, the first victim of the All Florida Reporting, Inc. 800-898-7373 Case 9:03-cv-81110-DTKH Document 154-14 Entered on FLSD Docket 07/15/2011 Page 3 of 7 66 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A To a certain extent. I don't believe most of it has been published, but the people, I'm sure, that were asked to assist with that are competent individuals. I have no reason to believe that it wouldn't be however they categorized it as. Q Okay. And that's -- you anticipated sort My next question is, did you, of my next question. yourself, review the scientific developments and have any opinions on the accuracy or inaccuracy of them? A Again, I haven't gone into any of that detail and I don't believe most of it has been released yet in publication form. Q Now, in your work with anthrax, did you ever make anthrax spores? A Q A Yes. And what is the process for doing that? Well, we just -- we grow them up in a liquid culture using vegetative organisms, which are before they sporulate, until they produce spores. This is the form that's the infectious form, so it's what we -- we prepare in order to do studies on protection against -- against the anthrax with new vaccines we have made or new treatments, so we prepare these challenge -- what we call challenge inocula, small volumes, a liquid culture that we purify All Florida Reporting, Inc. 800-898-7373 Case 9:03-cv-81110-DTKH Document 154-14 Entered on FLSD Docket 07/15/2011 Page 4 of 7 67 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and count and use for this type of testing and evaluation studies. Q Okay. So you grow anthrax spores in a liquid culture? A Q Yes. And then that's something that Dr. Ivins was well-schooled in doing, correct? A Q Yes. And once you have the spores, do you ever try and purify them? A Well, they're run through a -- what's called a gradient to try to remove the dead, vegetative cells, which are the things that grow up and release the spores, because we want to have a good, pure spore prep that we can count and know how much we are giving to an animal, for instance. manner. Q A Q A When you say run them through a gradient -It's a liquid material. Is that something like an organic solvent? It's like a density. It varies in density So we purify them in that so that the spores will layer at one point and the rest of the dead cells in another, and you can take off the spore layer. centrifuge. It's run in a liquid medium in a All Florida Reporting, Inc. 800-898-7373 Case 9:03-cv-81110-DTKH Document 154-14 Entered on FLSD Docket 07/15/2011 Page 5 of 7 68 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q And once there is purification in terms of, quote, unquote, "weaponizing" the anthrax, that would -- it have to be made into a powder after that, correct? A I guess. It's not something I have ever -I would assume a powder. would have any experience in. Q A That's not something you have ever done? No, we don't make powders out of anything. Ours are all liquid stocks, all of our organisms. Q With respect to making the anthrax, purifying the anthrax into a powder, has anybody else, to your knowledge, working at USAMRIID ever attempted to do that? A Q Not at our institute. Do you know the type of equipment that would be required to do that? A Q A Some kind of drying equipment. Is it a lyophilizer? I guess it might -- certain types of lyophilizers -- lyophilizers, I guess, would be used. It would have to be something under some kind of very rigid containment conditions so that you don't produce an aerosol. Q We had nothing like that. And when you say you had nothing like that, what are you referring to? All Florida Reporting, Inc. 800-898-7373 Case 9:03-cv-81110-DTKH Document 154-14 Entered on FLSD Docket 07/15/2011 Page 6 of 7 69 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A We don't have any way to produce the massive amount of material that would have been necessary to grow up and dry in a way that wouldn't have killed everybody in the institute. We don't work with powders, just liquids, and in relatively small volumes. We don't have the expertise to -- to scale up and manufacture some kind of powder. Q expertise? A Q mailer? A other. I think there is no data one way or the There is no data on the individual. There is No. I don't believe he did. Do you know whether Dr. Ivins had that Do you think that Dr. Ivins was the anthrax some scientific data on the material, but I haven't seen where there is any direct data on it in terms of who, what and where and -- so I really can't comment. I don't know who did it. Q So from your perspective, you said, I think, earlier, you really don't doubt the science that traced it back to a certain point, namely the flask of RMR 1029 that apparently Dr. Ivins had in his area, but you haven't seen any data linking the person who actually may have taken that or weaponized it or anything like that. Is that fair to say? All Florida Reporting, Inc. 800-898-7373 Case 9:03-cv-81110-DTKH Document 154-14 Entered on FLSD Docket 07/15/2011 Page 7 of 7 104 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 My Commission Expires: January 1, 2016 ___________________________ George W. Tudor Notary Public I, George W. Tudor, a Notary Public of the District of Columbia, do hereby certify that the within-named proceedings took place before me at the time and place herein set out. I further certify that the proceedings were recorded stenographically by me and this transcript is a true record of the proceedings. I further certify that I am not of counsel to any of the parties, nor an employee of counsel, nor related to any of the parties, nor in any way interested in the outcome of this action. As witnessed my hand and notarial seal this 15th day of November, 2010. District of Columbia, to wit: All Florida Reporting, Inc. 800-898-7373