1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 8 9 9 10 10 11 11 12 12 13 13 14 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 09FTCRO1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK ------------------------------x UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, v. JAMES CROMITIE, DAVID WILLIAMS, ONTA WILLIAMS, LAGUERRE PAYEN, Defendants. ------------------------------x New York, N.Y. September 15, 2010 9:45 a.m. Before: HON. COLLEEN MCMAHON, District Judge Jury Trial 09-CR-558 (CM) 1186 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 09FTCRO1 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 8 9 9 10 10 11 11 12 12 13 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 APPEARANCES PREET BHARARA United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York DAVID A. RASKIN JASON P.W. HALPERIN ADAM S. HICKEY Assistant United States Attorneys BRICCETTI, CALHOUN & LAWRENCE Attorneys for Defendant James Cromitie BY: VINCENT L. BRICCETTI, ESQ. GREEN & WILLSTATTER Attorneys for Defendant David Williams BY: THEODORE S. GREEN, ESQ. FEDERAL DEFENDERS OF NEW YORK INC. Attorneys for Defendant Onta Williams BY: SUSANNE BRODY, ESQ. MARK B. GOMBINER, ESQ. SAMUEL M. BRAVERMAN, ESQ. Attorney for Defendant Laguerre Payen ALSO PRESENT: ROBERT FULLER, FBI 1187 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 09FTCRO1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1188 (Jury not present) THE COURT: All right. I have this morning received the following report from the marshals -- and I believe one of the marshals is here and can confirm this -- of two things that are fully consistent with the Court's finding from yesterday that Mr. Payen is malingering. The first is that on Monday, which was the first day in which he was exhibiting this behavior -- and I'm not sure if this was in his cell at the MCC or in the cell here -- sorry, this is Deputy Marshal Daley, Mr. Payen's shirt, the shirt that he was brought over in was mysteriously found in the toilet in the traditional well-known let's stuff up the toilet and flood the cell maneuver. It obviously didn't get there by migrating mysteriously and silently through the air off Mr. Payen's body and into the toilet. I wish I had known about that yesterday. Today there's a puddle of urine in the holding cell where Mr. Payen was found. It's not on Mr. Payen's person, it's at some remove from where he was sitting ostensibly in a fugue state, unable to get out of his chair or otherwise know what he was doing. Apparently Mr. Payen, even in his condition, doesn't like to have to urine all over him. So it's obvious that Mr. Payen, as Dr. Miller predicted would happen, has already tripped up and revealed that the Court's surmise and the government's surmise is correct and that he is in fact perfectly capable of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1189 09FTCRO1 participating in this trial because he's perfectly capable of acting on his own and doing things that he thinks will be in his interest, like stuffing up the toilet to create havoc in the pens and not urinating on himself. So I just wanted -- did I get any of that wrong, Marshal Daley? DEPUTY MARSHAL: I think the only thing is his shirt and his shoes were stuffed the toilet. THE COURT: Oh, his shirt and shoes. Thank you very much, the shirt and his shoes. All right. Well, I have a brief from the government which, as usual, is not brief but it is comprehensive, and I thank the government for that. I also went and consulted with a colleague much senior to me and much more experienced than I am whom I greatly respect and who was not otherwise engaged in a hearing yesterday. And he endorses the solution to which I am inclined and is the solution that is suggested by the government, and it is the alternative motion of the defendants in the event I don't grant the severance motion, which, for the reasons stated in the government's brief, I'm not willing to grant. But I have reached the conclusion that severance is not the appropriate course of action, but the appropriate course of action was the one suggested by the government, which was to exclude Mr. Payen from the courtroom if it's in fact his SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1190 09FTCRO1 wish not to be present at his trial. And so the first thing I need to know is how Mr. Payen was transported here today. Was it necessary to extract him from his cell pursuant to the Court's order and physically bring him over, Marshal Daley? DEPUTY MARSHAL: Ma'am, no, they forcibly removed him. He passively resisted. THE COURT: Totally passive resistance but no effort to get up on his own and walk out of his cell as he had done for the first ten days of the trial. DEPUTY MARSHAL: Yeah, the only change was when he was in the strip room he actually stood up to be stripped. The past two days he was laying on the floor and wouldn't get up. This morning he actually stood to strip out to change his clothes to come to court. THE COURT: Fine. So I am going to talk to Mr. Payen. I can see him, but I hate to do this to you, Mr. Braverman, but I'm going to ask you to remove some of your stuff so that I have a very clear view of Mr. Payen. I just don't like to do that to your trial prep. Mr. Payen is sitting next to Mr. Braverman. He's sitting in a chair. He's in what appears to be in black prison garb. His head is upright today as opposed to lolled over on the side. His eyes are closed. Mr. Payen, I am addressing myself to you. You were SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1191 09FTCRO1 here yesterday, and we know from the report of the marshals that you have in fact been faking your fugue state, your ostensible mentally incapacitated state, and yesterday I found that you were faking. I use that word and there's no need to use a fancier word. You were faking, you are faking, that finding has been made. And I have therefore found as a matter of fact that you can understand what I am saying and what I am asking. The Court so finds. I am going to briefly go over the history of the last couple of days. The defendant refused to come to court on Monday. He was found in his cell ostensibly in a state where he was non-communicative and non-responsive and it was necessary to get him out of the cell. He did not physically resist. He was completely passive. He was uncooperative with the marshals. He did not get himself to court as he had throughout the rest of these proceedings. He was brought into court, and it is the Court's finding that he was brought into court against his will. He was attempting not to be present at the proceedings. That has been true of yesterday and for today as well. He was brought to court today pursuant to the force order that was issued and did not come into court of his own accord. And the record, of course, incorporates the Court's decision of yesterday and it adds the two additional facts about the defendant's clearly volitional behavior of Monday and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1192 09FTCRO1 of this morning. Mr. Payen, I'm reminding you that you have a constitutional right to attend this trial and to participate in your defense, to assist your lawyers, to watch the witnesses and listen to them and comment on that to your lawyers and help the lawyers. And that's a right that you were -- obviously to the Court -- engaging in during the first two weeks of the trial. There are numerous reasons why it is in your interest to avail yourself of those rights. You are the person with the most acquaintance with the events in which you were involved. You are the person who can shed light for your lawyer on those events. You are the person who is in the best position to give him the assistance that he undoubtedly would like to have as he mounts your defense -- and the defendant seems to be opening his eyes, the Court should note that -- and you are very, very much involved in this trial, and it is not in your interest not to be here. I will instruct the jury if you do not wish to be here that they're not to speculate why you're not in the room. And they will follow my instructions because jurors, I have found, always do follow my instruction. But, as I told you yesterday, they will have to work very hard to do that. I am convinced that they can. We picked an excellent jury here. Mr. Payen just opened his eyes again. We picked a very fine jury here. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1193 09FTCRO1 They're willing to work very hard. They have been working very hard, but it's not in your interest to put them in a position where they have to work hard to follow an instruction not to speculate about why you're not in the courtroom. Now you may knowingly and voluntarily give up your right to attend this trial. You may do that. And you may do it by continuing to force us to extract you and bring you into this courtroom when we know that you are perfectly capable of walking into the courtroom yourself and getting up and being present and doing volitional acts and not making a spectacle of yourself by lolling your head, which you are doing from time to time here, and being otherwise a spectacle. You're making a spectacle of yourself. You may be doing it quietly, you may be doing it silently, but you are definitely making a spectacle of yourself. And if I determine that you have knowingly and voluntarily decided not to attend this trial, I am not going to make you attend your trial, that's your wish, we'll put you in a place where you can see and hear what going on, but I have to satisfy myself that you do not in fact want to be present. So I'm going to ask you whether you do want to be present, but I have to tell you something, I have to tell you that you need to answer my questions. If you are silent in response to my questions, I am going to know that you are choosing to ignore me, because I know that you can hear me, I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1194 09FTCRO1 know that you can understand what I am saying, and I will interpret your silence as an expression that you do not wish to attend your trial, you do not wish to be present, you do not wish to assist your attorney. So Mr. Payen, do you want to be present in this courtroom? The record should reflect Mr. Payen is speaking to Mr. Braverman, or appears to be. Mr. Braverman, obviously there's a privileged communication, I can't ask you to divulge it. MR. BRAVERMAN: In this case it would be my privilege to do so, Judge. Mr. Payen asked -- or said to me three times: Yes, I want to be here. THE COURT: Yes, you want to be. OK. In that case, Mr. Payen, you're expected to behave. You're expected to behave during the course of this trial. You are expected to act in the way we all know you can act because you acted that way during the first ten days of the trial and you acted that way at all the conferences between March and the time that we finally picked a jury here. And you will not be allowed in any manner, shape or form to disrupt these proceedings. Do you understand that, sir? Again Mr. Payen is speaking to Mr. Braverman. He's not being monosyllabic. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 09FTCRO1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1195 MR. BRAVERMAN: Mr. Payen nodded his head and said yes, that he understands. THE COURT: I'm reminded of a trial that I did in state court where one of the defendants was speaking I believe Urdu but may have been a Semitic language. Mr. O'Neill may remember this. We had a court interpreter with us, and the question was asked by the prosecutor and the interpreter interpreted, the witness went blah, blah, blah for about five minutes and the interpreter said: He said yes. Now the record should note that Mr. Payen in fact said rather more than yes. I could see, hear very softly, I had no idea what he was saying, but I'll take that, Mr. Braverman, as a statement that the totality of what he communicated to you was he understands that he has to behave himself. MR. BRAVERMAN: Among the various words he said, "yes" was one of them. THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Braverman. And when it's time, because I told the jurors to come at 11, we will be moving Mr. Payen into a chair, an appropriate chair for him to be sitting in, and we'll go forward. I'm sorry the jurors aren't here at 10:30. We kept our fingers crossed. MR. BRICCETTI: May we be heard? THE COURT: I'm sure you want to be heard. Yes, Mr. Gombiner. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 09FTCRO1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1196 MR. GOMBINER: We're going to renew our application that Mr. Payen -- if the Court isn't going to grant his severance, we renew our application that he be excluded from the courtroom. Right now he is sitting there in prison clothes. Although Mr. Braverman said he said "yes," he wasn't even willing to say "yes" to the Court. That just indicates to us the continued -- well, I think it probably is a desire actually to do whatever it takes to -THE COURT: Disrupt the proceedings. MR. GOMBINER: -- disrupt the proceedings. And we don't feel that we should have to wait until he does that and then have to -- then we have got a different problem that isn't just his problem anymore, and then we have got a problem with the jury. So we renew our application that he be excluded from the courtroom until such time as he actually acts in an appropriate manner. And we don't think what's transpired this morning -- although Mr. Braverman has told the Court he said "yes," we think that the manner which the colloquy was conducted -- not the way the Court conducted it but his responses to it do not suggest that he is going to -- well, it suggests to us that he is going to do something that is going to prejudice us, so we renew our application that he be excluded from the courtroom until such time as he actually starts acting in an appropriate manner. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 09FTCRO1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1197 MR. BRICCETTI: I join that application on behalf Mr. Cromitie. MR. GREEN: And I join on behalf of Mr. Williams. MR. BRAVERMAN: And I oppose on behalf of Mr. Payen. THE COURT: Mr. Raskin? MR. RASKIN: Your Honor, it's just premature to do that. We sympathize with the defendants, we also don't want the jury to be distracted. The trial as been moving -THE COURT: Glacially. MR. RASKIN: Well, that wasn't the word that I was going to use, but it has been moving without disruption. And obviously we would all like it to continue that way, but unfortunately it is, just in our view, premature to make that determination. THE COURT: I'm afraid I agree with Mr. Raskin. Mr. Payen is not behaving particularly respectfully, but he is behaving quietly. He looks to me like here's wearing a black shirt. We all know that it's prison garb, but it's not obviously prison garb. In fact, one of the reporters back here is wearing a remarkably similar shirt to Mr. Payen's, which might indicate that either the reporter wears prison garb or Mr. Payen dresses like the press, I don't know. But anyway, so of course any kind of outburst or disruptive behavior from Mr. Payen is not going to be to tolerated, and I think I can deal with the jury SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1198 09FTCRO1 if that should happen. And if it doesn't happen, we'll just roll quietly along. Hopefully the jury will be paying attention to the testimony of the confidential informant, which we are going to finish the direct and finally commence the cross-examination. MR. BRICCETTI: Your Honor, may we have one moment? THE COURT: Absolutely, Mr. Briccetti, anything you want. (Pause) MR. BRICCETTI: Your Honor -THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Briccetti. MR. BRICCETTI: Counsel for Mr. Cromitie and David and Onta Williams just conferred on whether we think it's appropriate for the Court to give any instruction to the jury. We think that the Court should not do that because it's tantamount to saying don't look at the pink elephant in the room. THE COURT: I wasn't planning on that. MR. BRICCETTI: Having said that, we would ask that the Court direct that Mr. Payen put on a regular shirt. He certainly has it. I don't know whether he has shoes, but -- he has sneakers on. We don't want to be prejudiced by this. And we're trying to navigate these waters along with the Court and the government. It's not easy to do so, and we do not ask for an instruction at this time, but we want the Court to do SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1199 09FTCRO1 everything that the Court can possibly do to ensure that the jury does not -- that the jury does not get distracted by this. That's my biggest concern. THE COURT: I understand, Mr. Briccetti, and I believe that the marshals are going to do what they can do. MR. BRICCETTI: Thank you, your Honor. MR. RASKIN: We agree an instruction is not necessary at this time. THE COURT: OK. I will imagine that defense counsel might want a little time with their clients because they haven't had much time with their clients in the last couple of days. The jury will be here by 11. (Recess taken) (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 09f0cro2a 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1200 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Come to order, please. Case on trial continued. The government and defendants are present. The jurors are not present, but they are in the jury room. The defendant is on the -- the witness is on the witness stand. Be seated. THE COURT: Bring in the jurors. THE CLERK: Jurors. THE MARSHALL: Jury entering. They are getting their binders, your Honor. THE COURT: Whenever they are ready. We have inconvenienced them long enough. They can inconvenience us for a while. THE MARSHALL: Jury entering. (Jury present) THE COURT: Hi, everybody. Have a seat. We have solved our problem, and I hear the MTA created some for some of you. Sorry about that. We are ready to go. The witness is on the stand. Sir, you are still under oath. Mr. Raskin, will you please resume. I think we were actually at the 20th of May of 2009 when we last were all together. MR. RASKIN: Thank you, your Honor, my pleasure. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1201 09f0cro2a DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. RASKIN: Q. Good morning, sir. A. Good morning to you, sir. Q. As the Judge indicated, we were on the 20th of May. And I believe when we ended your testimony, you and the four defendants were in Riverdale; is that correct? A. Yes, sir. MR. RASKIN: And, Ms. Alpino, can you bring up 13-B. And blow that up, and enlarge it, please. Q. Now, sir, you had testified you had been given precise instructions about what to do that night; correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you talked about that with the defendants? A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you review for us exactly what the plan was, and then we're going to hear a recording. Starting with 246 Street, can you tell us where your first stop was, and what happened there? A. The plan was that my entrance would be from 246, that way. And Mr. David William would be dropped off right here. And he would be look-out guy and do surveillance, if there was any police coming from this way, and down this way. Then, I will make a left turn on Independence, here. And I would -- I would indicate Mr. James Cromitie the Pontiac, by the Riverdale SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1202 09f0cro2 Hussain - direct Temple. Q. And let me just ask you to remind us what that Pontiac -what significance did the Pontiac have? A. It would be as part of the car bombing, that Mr. James Cromitie would put a bomb in the back of the car, and it will explode at some point. Q. So, at this point, you were just supposed to show everybody where that Pontiac was? A. Yes, sir. Q. And, after that, what were you supposed to do? A. And then I would drive up here with Mr. James Cromitie, Mr. Payen, and Mr. Onta Williams, right on 239th Street, here. And I would drop off Mr. Onta Williams and Mr. Payen here. Q. Okay. A. And, the -- Mr. -- sorry. Q. What was Mr. Payen supposed to do at that point? A. Mr. Payen would walk down here, all of the way down here, and he would be a look-out guy, right by here. Q. And what was Onta Williams supposed to do? A. Onta would be a look-out guy, right down here. Q. And remind us what that building is next to the second X you just made. A. This is Jewish center, sir; community center. Q. Okay. A. And then I would drive up here and show Mr. James Cromitie SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1203 09f0cro2 Hussain - direct the Mazda that would be parked right in front of Jewish Temple on side door. Q. And that Mazda, like the Pontiac, was a car provided by the FBI? A. Yes, sir. That will also create a second car bombing in that. Q. Okay. Now, why don't you just clear the screen. After you showed Mr. Cromitie the Mazda, what were you supposed to do next? A. Then I would go back that way and make a U-turn and drop off Mr. James Cromitie with the bombs here. And I would -then I would come up here and park my car right on this corner here. Q. And what was Mr. Cromitie supposed to do after you let him off? A. He would place the car bombs, the bombs in the car, in the back of the car, and then he would walk here and pick up two other bombs, and then he would go to the Mazda where the Jewish center, and place two of the bombs down there, and come back where my car was parked at. Q. And I believe you testified about this, that that parking space on 239 Street, is that a predetermined place for you to go? A. Yes, sir. Q. And, okay. Before we play the last recording, just remind SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1204 09f0cro2 Hussain - direct us what your instructions were with respect to the GPS recording device. Specifically, when were you supposed to turn it off? A. As soon as Mr. James Cromitie had placed the second bomb, the two bombs in Mazda by Jewish community center. And I would get check from him -- or from Onta William, who will be close by. Because every car bomb look-out would give a check; Mr. Cromitie would give a check to Mr. Payen. "Check" means that the bomb has been placed, let's get out of here. Mr. Payen will give a check to Onta; Onta will give it to me -- or Mr. Payen would give it to me. And then we would pass it to Mr. Dave Williams. Q. And when you say "give a check," are you talking about using the -A. Walkie-talkie. Q. -- the phones? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. Thank you. All right. So we're about to listen to the last recording. And is it fair to say this recording begins right about the time you get off the highway and enter 246 Street on the map we just saw? A. Yes, sir. MR. RASKIN: Okay. Ms. Alpino, can we play 248-E 4, which is 23 minutes SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 09f0cro2 long. Hussain - direct 1205 (Videotape played) BY MR. RASKIN: Q. Couple quick follow-up questions on that. At the very beginning, I think you may have testified about this last week. At the beginning, you told Mr. Payen not to go by the library. A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you remember that? A. Yes, sir. Q. Why did you tell him that. A. Because there was a police command up there. So there was a lot of police behind the library. So I was told by Agent Fuller that they are to stick to their -- to the streets where the police could be coming from. Q. And, later on, did you tell Mr. Cromitie to tell Hamza that -- you used the name "Hamza" to go to the other side. Why did you do that? A. There was an undercover cop sitting there with the lights on. And there was two police officers inside the car. I could see them. And so could Mr. Hamza. So I don't want Mr. Hamza to go on other side, so they wouldn't see, the undercover cops. Q. And in a couple places Mr. Cromitie complained about having to carry the IEDs and bombs too far, and asked you to drive to a different place. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1206 Hussain - direct Why didn't you do that? A. I had instruction from Agent Fuller not to move my car from that 239th Street, sir. Q. Now, there was also some discussion between you and Mr. Cromitie about switches and timers? A. Uh-huh. Q. Tell us, what was your understanding at that point as to what somebody would have to do to explode these bombs -MS. BRODY: Objection, your Honor. THE COURT: I'm sorry? What's the ground? MS. BRODY: Objection as to relevance of what somebody would do. We have a specific date, a specific time, and a specific -THE COURT: The objection is overruled. A. There would be two ways to explode the bomb. One way would be either you call the number for the device, telephone number would be given. And if you call the device, even though if you are not even set the timer up, you can call that number and the bomb will explode. Or, you set the timer up for three hours, four hours, and it would explode automatically. (Continued on next page) 09f0cro2c SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1207 09FTCRO3 Hussain - direct BY MR. RASKIN: Q. And is that what you told these four defendants about how the bombs would explode? A. Yes, sir. Q. Now at the point that the tape ends, which is when you cut the GPS recording device off, could you see Mr. Cromitie at this point? A. No, not where the Mazda was, I couldn't. Q. What was the next contact you had with any one of the four defendants? A. Mr. Cromitie was trying to talk to me on a walkie-talkie that he could not open the Mazda's back hood up with the keys that I had given him. And then Mr. Onta Williams walked up to me, he said he can't open up the back hood. So I tried to explain to him, and then I asked Mr. Onta to talk to him on the walkie-talkie that he can put it on the back seat. And that's what Mr. James Cromitie did, that he placed the two bombs on the back seat of the car. Q. Mr. Cromitie reached out to you on the walkie-talkie, and why didn't you answer him? A. I tried to talk to him on the walkie-talkie by pressing the buttons, and he couldn't hear me. I could hear him, but he couldn't hear me. Q. And then you had a conversation with Onta Williams? A. Yes, sir. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1208 09FTCRO3 Hussain - direct Q. Where was that conversation? A. Right by my car on 239 where my car was. He came on the non-driver's side and I opened the window, and he said Mr. James Cromitie can not open the back hood of the car. Q. So what did tell Onta Williams to do? A. I told him to put it on the back seat of the car, so that's what he did. Q. And how did Onta Williams tell Mr. Cromitie that? A. Yes, sir. Q. How did he do it? A. Through walkie-talkie, sir. Q. At that point what did Onta Williams do after he communicated with Mr. Cromitie? A. Then he walked back to where he was up there. At some point he saw Mr. Cromitie walking down, and he walked before Mr. Cromitie did and he came and sat in the car and waited for James Cromitie to show up. Q. And shortly thereafter did Mr. Cromitie join you and Onta Williams in the car? A. Yes, he did, sir. Q. And what did Mr. Cromitie tell you when he came back to the Ford Expedition? A. That he couldn't open the back hood, he had placed the car -- the bombs on the back seat, and then he called walkie-talkie Mr. Payen up and said "check" to him and told SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1209 09FTCRO3 Hussain - direct Mr. Payen to come down. Payen -- I don't think Payen was responding on his walkie-talkie at that time. A couple of minutes later I saw Mr. Payen coming down, and then Mr. Payen joined us right after that, sir. Q. So now it's you and Mr. Cromitie and Mr. Payen and Onta Williams in the car? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where was David Williams at this point? A. Onta Williams walkie-talkie Mr. David Williams and gave him a check sign, "check," that was the code word that everything has been done. So he was waiting for us to be picked up at 246. Q. Now have you moved your car at this point or are you still in that spot? A. I'm still in that spot, sir. Q. And what instructions had you been given by the FBI as to what to do at this particular moment? A. To take my keys out, there would be a killer switch on the car, and place my keys on the dashboard and wait for the tow truck to come. The tow truck would come in, lock my car, and the SWAT team would move in at that time. Q. That's SWAT team as S-W-A-T? A. Yes, sir. Q. So tell us what happened. A. And then I was taking my keys out and I saw -- we all saw SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1210 09FTCRO3 Hussain - direct this brown truck pass by us and then we saw a couple of undercover police cars pass by us. And Mr. James Cromitie and Onta said let's get out of here, there's police. And I said OK, then I dropped my keys on the ground. Q. Why did you drop your keys on the ground? A. Because I wanted to give time for the tow truck to come. Q. The tow truck had not come? A. No, sir, not yet. Q. How long from between the time you dropped your keys on the floor and the tow truck appeared? A. A couple of minutes, I would say. Q. So tell us what happened. A. And then the tow truck moved in and I saw police car coming in and they started breaking the windows and they pulled us out through the windows, including me. MR. RASKIN: Your Honor, that is the end of my questions, but we would like to offer a stipulation before we end direct examination which has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 702S. THE COURT: OK, folks, you know what a stipulation is, it is an agreement by and between the government and the four defendants through their attorneys. And here is what they have agreed in Exhibit 702S: Government Exhibits 101-T through 129-T, 105A-T, 108A-T, 115A-T, 121A-T, 122B-T, 124A-T, 125A-T, 125B-T and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1211 09FTCRO3 Hussain - direct 470-T are transcripts of the full-length consensual recordings contained on Government Exhibits 101 through 129, 105A, 108A, 115A, 121A, 121B, 124A, 125A, 125B and 470, and from which the transcripts of the government's consensual recording excerpts were derived and refined as described in the testimony of Heather Alpino. It is further stipulated and agreed that Government Exhibits 101-T through 129-T, 105A-T, 108A-T, 115A-T, 121A-T, 121B-T, 124A-T, 125A-T, 125B-T and 470-T and this stipulation may be received as evidence in trial, and they are so received. (Government's Exhibits 101-T through 129-T, 105A-T, 108A-T received in evidence) (Government's Exhibits 115A-T, 121A-T, 121B-T, 124A-T, 125A-T received in evidence) (Government's Exhibits 125B-T and 470-T received in evidence) MR. RASKIN: Thank you, your Honor, that concludes the direct. THE COURT: Ms. Brody. MS. BRODY: Your Honor. THE COURT: I believe I will to turn the floor over to you at this point. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. BRODY: Q. The last 20 minutes that we have just listened to were SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1212 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross pretty important, weren't they? A. Sorry, I didn't get your question. Q. The last 20 minutes of the tape that we just listened to was pretty important; wouldn't you agree with that? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And who was in charge of that last 20 minutes that we just heard? A. I was, ma'am. Q. You were born in Pakistan, weren't you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You were married there? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Had children? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. What did you do for a living when you were in Pakistan prior to your arrest? A. I owned a trading company there. Q. And what were you trading? A. Construction materials. Q. That's your family business, isn't it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And your brothers are still involved in that? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You were arrested for the first time in 1990, and that was for disturbing the peace, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1213 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that had to do with you were a -- with the Court's permission, withdrawn. You were a member of a political party called -- and we will use the abbreviation MQM; is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that party was in opposition to the party that was in control at the time in Pakistan in approximately 1989, 1990? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you were involved in a rally which was not sanctioned by the government, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You were arrested and released in a couple of days? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. The opposing party became very powerful, didn't they? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that resulted in your arrest in 1992, did it not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And when you were arrested in 1992, was that when approximately 15,000 people were arrested? A. It was under the Blue Fox operation, Operation Blue Fox. THE COURT: The question was in 1992 is that about the time when the 15,000 people were arrested? Yes or no. THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. THE COURT: So let's set out the rules right now. I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1214 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross rather imagine Ms. Brody and the other lawyers are going to ask you questions that are going to be answered yes or no. To the extent they can be answered yes or no, they should be answered yes or no. If Mr. Raskin thinks there is some way that he wants you to embellish on that answer he will have the opportunity to ask you more questions in the future. All right? THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. THE COURT: Thank you. Those are the rules, please follow them. Next, Ms. Brody. BY MS. BRODY: Q. And at that time you were arrested for murder; is that true? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you were tortured? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You were held a couple of days? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Deprived of food, deprived of water? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And your father bribed -- was it the prison guards, for your release? A. The chief of police. Q. And the first bribe that your father had to pay to get you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1215 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross released was I believe 150,000 rupees, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that is about how much in U.S.? A. About $1,800. Q. Then for a couple of years you were not so politically active, correct? A. That's not correct, ma'am. Q. You remained politically active? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. In 1994 you were arrested a second time with -- this would be your third arrest, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And this time you were arrested for gun running, correct? A. Sorry? Q. Gun running. A. I don't understand what that means. Q. Gun running, being an arms trader, an arms dealer. A. No, ma'am. Q. Kidnapping? A. No, ma'am. Q. You were just arrested for murder? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And again you were kept for a couple of days without food and water, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1216 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross Q. Now the first time you were arrested I believe you were arrested -- you were taken from your home? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And the second time you were arrested you were taken from your office, correct? A. Maybe. I don't recall, but yeah, could be. Q. Was that the trading company that you would have been taken from had you been taken from your office? A. Yes, ma'am, but I don't recall where I was taken, it's about 17 years ago, ma'am. Q. When you were taken that second time they wanted you to confess to the wrongdoing of other party members; is that true? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that was at MQM? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you feel -- you actually feared for your life, didn't you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. They tied you? A. Sorry. Q. They tied you up? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. They bound you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. We saw the scar on your wrist that you got. Was that from SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1217 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross the second arrest, the scar, or from -- when I say second, I'll do that differently, with the Court's permission. Was that from your '92 arrest or your '94 arrest that you got the scar? A. '94 arrest, ma'am. Q. And your father had to again bribe the police, did he not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that bribe was 100,000 rupees, correct? A. I don't know. I don't recall. It could be right. You could be right on that one. Q. Do you recall they told you not to stay in Karachi? A. They told me, my understanding, was not to stay in Pakistan. Q. Was not to stay in Pakistan. And you went underground, did you not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And then on I believe November 14, 1994 -- I'm sorry, yes -- fled, did you not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you went to Moscow? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. How did you get the money to get to Moscow? A. Provided by my family. Q. And when you left, you left with a fake passport? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Where did you get the fake passport? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1218 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross A. There was another -- a travel agent who was traveling with me, there was a gentleman who was human trafficking traveling with me at that time. Q. Describe what you mean by human traffickers. A. People who bring other people to another country without passports or with fraudulent documents. Q. And he took you -- he assisted in getting you out of Moscow and getting you out of Pakistan? A. Yes, he traveled with me all the way to Mexico, ma'am. Q. Were you with your family? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Did he have fake documents for your family as well? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. What was the passport -- what was the nationality of the passport you left Pakistan with? A. I believe a British passport. Q. Do you remember what the name on it was? A. No, ma'am, I don't recall. Q. And your family, did they also have a British passport? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And was it $10,000 for each of you or was it -- did you say it was $10,000? Do you recall how much it was? A. I believe it was 10,000. I don't remember. It was done through my brother, so I don't know how it was done. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1219 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross Q. When you entered Mexico, where did you enter in Mexico? A. I think it was Mexico City. Q. And you stayed there for about two weeks? A. I don't remember. I don't recall how many days I stayed there. Q. How did you find somebody -- where did you stay when you were in Mexico? A. In a hotel room. Q. Did the trafficker arrange the hotel for you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So this was like a whole travel package like you go on vacation, you get the flight, right? A. Sorry? Q. He arranged the flights? A. Mm-hmm. Q. He had arranged the accommodations in Mexico? A. Mm-hmm. THE COURT: Could you say yes instead of mm-hmm? THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, ma'am. THE COURT: It's easier on the court reporter. Q. Did he also arrange for the person who took you over from Mexico into Texas? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Where did you enter Texas? A. Through El Paso. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1220 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross Q. Did you also go to Houston? A. Sorry? Q. Did you also go to Houston when you were in Texas? A. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. How did you get from Mexico -- sorry, how did you get from El Paso to Albany? A. By bus, ma'am. Q. By bus? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. What documentation did you have with you? A. Nothing, ma'am. Q. No documentation? A. No, ma'am. Q. What happened to the British passports? A. The human trafficker took that, the guy that came with us, he took the passport. Q. So you had no identification whatsoever? A. No, ma'am. Q. And you were with your entire family at the time, weren't you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. How much money did you leave Pakistan with? A. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. $2,000, $10,000? A. No, less than that, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1221 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross Q. Less than 2,000? A. Yes, something like that. Q. Did you leave with any jewelry? A. Sorry? Q. Did you leave with any jewelry, any valuables? A. I don't recall. I don't know. My wife had them, I don't know, not me. Q. Are you aware of whether your wife had any valuables when you left Pakistan? A. I don't know, ma'am, I don't recall. Q. Did you come with any note of credit from a bank? A. No, ma'am. Q. Did you have any assets transferred from Pakistan to the States for your use? A. No, ma'am. Q. So all you had when you arrived in Albany was less than $2,000, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Where did you live when you first went to Albany? A. Sorry? Q. Where did you live when you first went to Albany? A. In Albany only, I went from El Paso straight to Albany. Q. Where did you live in Albany? A. It was on Central Avenue, ma'am. The first day I stayed in the hotel then a friend of mine got me an apartment. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1222 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross Q. Did the friend also get you a job? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And what was that first job? A. I was an attendant in a gas station. Q. And when was that? When do you think it began, if you remember? A. '95, somewhere. Q. Somewhere in '95? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. How long were you in Albany before you went to work? A. I would say a couple of months, ma'am. Q. So if you got to Albany at the end of November, so would you say January '95 would be fair to say? A. Could be, I don't recall, it could be. It's a long time, so I -- it could be February, could be March, could be January. Q. So it could have been as late as February or March? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Was anybody giving you financial assistance during that time? A. No. Q. And you testified -- was your wife working at that time? A. No, ma'am. Q. When your friend got you the job at the gas station, you were paid in cash? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1223 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross Q. How much were you paid? A. $4 an hour. Q. Did he require you to have a Social Security number? A. He didn't ask for one. Q. So you knew you were being paid off the books? A. Sorry? Q. You knew you were being paid off the books? A. I didn't know what I was paid off, I don't recall how I was paid, but I did get cash from him. Q. Well, you didn't declare that as income on any income tax, did you? A. In '94, no, ma'am. Q. In '95? A. No, ma'am, I don't think so. Q. Now you testified you surrendered yourself to the INS, and was that in Albany? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Tell me how that came about, please. A. As soon as I entered Albany then I looked for an immigration lawyer through yellow pages and I found an immigration lawyer. And I went to him and told him my story and then he filled out papers and got me to the immigration office. Q. When you walked into the INS office did you have any documentation on who you were or where you came from? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1224 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross A. No, ma'am. Q. Did you have to post any kind of surety bond? A. I don't know, ma'am. I don't recall. I don't know. I don't think I was asked for a surety bond at that time. Q. You were illegally in the country? A. Sorry? Q. You were illegally in the country? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And your family was illegally in the country? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You walked into INS said I am illegal and they said OK, go home, we'll give you a call? A. I don't know how my lawyer handled it. I don't know. He submitted some documents in the immigration office and I was interviewed in the immigration office. Q. And that document he submitted originally is called an immigration application, isn't it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And he reviewed that with you, did he not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And when he reviewed that with you, you understood that the answers that you were going to put in that application had to be true? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And they were true under penalty of perjury; do you know SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1225 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross what that means? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. That means you could be prosecuted if you lie in these statements; is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that application was filed by your attorney on December 29, correct? A. Could be possible, yes, ma'am. MS. BRODY: Are we on Defendant's 4 or 3? THE COURT: Defendant's 4 for identification. MS. BRODY: May I approach? THE COURT: You may. MS. BRODY: Would the Court like a copy? THE COURT: Always. MR. RASKIN: If the document is part of the 3500 material that we have given the defense, as this one is, it would be convenient if counsel could just identify it by the corresponding 3500 number. MS. BRODY: Your Honor, for some reason my copies of this document don't have 3500 numbers, I don't know why. THE COURT: As far as I'm concerned and the jury is concerned, it's Defendant's Exhibit 4. MS. BRODY: 3502-135. I apologize to the government, but my copies do not have the stamp on them. BY MS. BRODY: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1226 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross Q. Showing you what has marked for identification as Defendant's 4, is that your signature on the bottom of the document? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And is the date December 29? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And in this asylum application you were seeking political asylum; were you not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that was because you had been arrested and tortured in Pakistan, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. But your family was not seeking asylum, were they? A. No, ma'am. Q. So they were just going to stay here illegally? A. According to my immigration lawyer he said once you seek the asylum they will automatically be included in your asylum papers. Q. And you told your attorney that you feared for your death and your family's safety; did you not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you told your attorney who submitted the application on your behalf that you would be killed or tortured if you returned, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1227 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross Q. And that the MQM political party was the reason that you feared for your life because you were a member, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you told your attorney that you went from Moscow to Mexico City? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Now one of the questions on the application was whether or not an exit permission was required for you to leave your country. Do you recall that question? A. I don't recall the question. Q. Showing you page 4, question 27, does this refresh your recollection as to whether or not you were asked if you had permission to leave your country? A. What question would that be, ma'am? Q. 27. Was permission required to leave your country? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you checked on this affidavit, which you swore to, that you required permission to leave your country, did you not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Local police give you permission to leave your country? A. No, ma'am. Q. Government give you permission to leave your country? A. No, ma'am. Q. On the document you put by local police and the army? A. Yes, sir. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1228 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross Q. Was that correct? A. No, that's correct because the army took over Karachi at that time and the operation Blue Fox. THE COURT: No, the question is: Was it true that the local police and the army gave you permission to leave your country. THE WITNESS: Yeah, I said no. Q. No? THE COURT: Not true. Q. The local police did not give you permission to leave? A. No, sorry. Q. And the army did not give you permission to leave? A. No, ma'am. Q. So when you said permission was necessary and you put by the local police and army, was that an incorrect statement? A. I don't understand your question at all, I'm sorry. Q. OK. One of the asylum -- on your asylum application that you reviewed with your lawyer -Did you speak English at that time? Let's just get that clear. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Did you speak English then? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Did you read and write English at that time? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1229 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross Q. OK. You reviewed the application that your attorney filed on your behalf, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you signed that application? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And the application I just showed you asked -- question number 27 on page 4 -- was exit permission required to leave your country? And you checked yes. And I asked: And you put on the application by local police and army. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Then I asked: Did you receive the permission of the local police? And you said? A. No. Q. And I asked: Did you receive permission from the army to leave? And you said? A. No, ma'am. Q. And then I asked, and I think this is where it's confusing: Was this a misrepresentation on your asylum application? A. I don't think so, ma'am. Q. So you needed permission to leave? A. Mm-hmm. Q. By the local police? A. Mm-hmm. Q. And you needed permission of the army? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1230 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross A. Yes, ma'am. Q. But you just didn't get it, correct? A. No, ma'am, I didn't. Q. And that's because you were fleeing for your life? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. OK. Now very quickly, very quickly, after you submitted your asylum application, as a matter of fact, within four or five weeks you had an interview with immigration; did you not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that interview lasted about an hour; do you recall that? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Was there only one interview with immigration? A. I had one interview in Albany and I had another interview at JFK Airport, by the JFK Airport. Q. When was the interview at JFK? A. That was the final interview. Q. And when was the final interview? A. I believe it was in '95. Q. During the initial interview, which happened back in 1995 -- how far between the first interview in '95 in February and the one at JFK would you say, how many months? A. I don't know. I don't recall, six months, maybe, seven months. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. Do you recall stating in your interview that you left SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1231 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross Pakistan because you were charged with kidnapping and murder? Do you recall that? A. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. And it was important that you told the interviewer everything that was true, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Because you didn't want get deported, did you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You didn't want to get beaten again and you didn't want to get tortured, right? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And isn't it a fact that you told the interviewer when you were in Pakistan you owned six restaurant chains? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Well, is that different than the trading company? A. The restaurant chain was owned by my family and I shared in that. Q. Well, you didn't mention that to immigration about the trading, did you? You put down the trading but never told them about the restaurant business until you were interviewed. A. There are a lot of businesses my family owned in Pakistan that I'm part of, but trading was the one company that I solely owned, ma'am. Q. And when you say solely owned, how many employees did you have? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1232 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross A. I don't know, about 20 of them. I don't recall how many it was. Q. Did you trade internationally? A. No, ma'am. Q. And what was it you traded? A. Construction material, ma'am. Q. And that was just within Pakistan? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So when you told the immigration officer during your interview that you didn't leave for financial reasons, that would have been true, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Now moving ahead, in 2000 you were living with your family this whole time in Albany? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you had a number -- you were involved in a number of different gas stations? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You worked at some and then I believe you bought one? A. Sorry, ma'am? Q. You worked at a couple of gas stations? A. I worked at one gas station and the owner of the gas station was selling his own gas station so he offered me to buy it on a lease basis, so in 1996 I owned the gas station. Q. What gas station was that? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1233 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross A. That was a Mobil gas station up in Glens Falls, ma'am. Q. And you bought that in '96? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. When were you granted asylum? A. I believe in '95, ma'am. I could be wrong, 1995. Q. You don't recall when you were granted political asylum? A. It's 1995, I believe. I don't recall the exact date or month, ma'am. Q. That was a pretty significant event in your life, wasn't it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You were here illegally? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You were here with your two young children, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And the four of you could have been deported at any moment. You were known to INS, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And it wasn't a significant moment in your life when you learned you were granted political asylum? A. I said yes, ma'am. Q. And you don't remember when it was? A. No, ma'am. Q. Were you notified by letter? A. Through my immigration lawyer, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1234 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross Q. And he called on the phone and said you're good? What happened? A. I don't know, it's a long time, he called me up or I got a call from his secretary that your asylum has been granted. Q. The family didn't celebrate? A. I don't recall, ma'am. It was a long time, 17 years ago, ma'am. Q. I think it was 15. '95? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. This is 2010. We'll call it 15, OK? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Did you receive documentation from the government that you recall? A. Yes, ma'am, at one point I did, ma'am. Q. What point was that, Mr. Hussain? A. Somewhere in 1995. Q. What happened after you learned, relating to your immigration -- what happened after you learned that you had gotten political asylum? A. Nothing, I kept going to work. Q. At some point, Mr. Hussain, did you get a green card? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. How is it that you got a green card? A. Through my political asylum, ma'am. Q. So you had to take those documents to a government office, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1235 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Do you recall taking your asylum -- shall we call it a letter granting you asylum? What would you like to call it? A. I don't recall taking those letters, I think it was done through my lawyer, the process. He took everything and he was handling most of the documents. I don't recall if I took them or he took them. I don't recall, ma'am. I think it was done through my lawyer. Q. Do you recall when you got a green card? A. '95, '96, I believe, ma'am. There's a process, it's a two-year process before you get a green card. Q. And the two-year process could not have started until you were granted asylum; is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So if you were granted asylum in '95, could you have gotten the green card in '97? A. Yes, ma'am, very likely, ma'am. Q. But you don't recall? A. No, ma'am. Q. Wasn't this also a significant event for an immigrant? A. Yes, it is. Q. You could work legally now in America with a green card. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Isn't that what a green card says, that you could now work SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1236 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross legally? A. I believe I got the work permit before I got the green card. Q. What documentation did you use to get the work permit? A. Once you get a political asylum you get a work permit, and once you apply for the political asylum the work permit applies with it and then you get -- in a couple of months you get a work permit. Q. And how about your family, were they able to get Social Security numbers or to get alien registration numbers? A. They got it through my lawyer. Q. You didn't pay any attention? A. I was working 14 hours a day, ma'am. Q. I understand that, but you were also illegal, in fear of your life in Pakistan, and you certainly wanted to stay in this country; did you not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You would agree this is a pretty great country, isn't it? A. Yes, it is, ma'am. Q. Our freedoms are unbelievable, aren't they? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And your family was safe once you got that political asylum? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You were working 14 hours a day, is it? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1237 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Trying to earn a living for your family? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. This country welcomed you, didn't it, Mr. Hussain? A. Yes. Q. We welcomed your family? A. Yes, you did, ma'am. Q. And you were here for very few years before you started committing crimes; isn't that correct? A. Would you repeat that question, again, please? THE COURT: Read it back, please. (Record read) A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So you were putting your family at risk of deportation with the commission of those crimes; were you not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And these crimes began, as far as any of us have seen documentation, in 2000; is that correct? A. No, ma'am. Q. The crimes didn't begin in 2000? A. I believe it began in 2003, 2002, somewhere. I don't recall, it could be 2002. Q. You were indicted up in Albany, weren't you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And after you were indicted there came a point in time when SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1238 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross you met with the government, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you signed a cooperation agreement in Albany? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you signed a plea agreement in Albany? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And there came a time when you pled guilty in Albany, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And after you pled guilty -- and you had a lawyer there; did you not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And the court ordered after you pled guilty that a presentence investigation report be done; do you recall that? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And the presentence investigation report is an important document; is it not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Because it will, as you learned, it does go to the court when you were sentenced, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And the presentence report is essentially the story of your life; is that correct, Mr. Hussain? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Where you grew up, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1239 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross A. Yes, ma'am. Q. It would have your immigration story? A. I believe so. Q. It would have your work history? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. It would have all of your financial information? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Your employment information? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you were told that what you told the probation officer had to be truthful and had to be accurate, and you understood that, right? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So you knew you couldn't make anything up? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And at the time of sentencing -- do you recall when you were sentenced in Albany? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Do you recall the court asking you if -- after you did your first -- withdrawn. After you did your initial presentence interview, you got a copy of what is called the first disclosure of the report. Do you recall that? A. My lawyer got it. Yes. Q. Did you not review it, Mr. Hussain? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1240 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross A. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. You don't recall whether you reviewed the presentence report? A. No, ma'am. Q. Do you recall having a second interview between 2003, when the first report was done, and 2006 when you were sentenced? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Do you recall reviewing the final probation report? A. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. You don't recall. A. No, ma'am. Q. But it would be fair to say you reviewed it, right? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Well, at sentencing do you recall the judge asking you specifically -A. Yes, ma'am. Q. -- did you have an opportunity -THE COURT: Let her finish her question. Q. -- did you have an opportunity to review this with your attorney. Do you recall that? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And do you recall that he specifically asked you -- he said: Mr. Hussain, have you had an opportunity to review this probation report? Do you recall that? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1241 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross A. He might have, yes, ma'am. Q. Showing you what has been marked Defendant's Exhibit 5 for identification, it is Government Exhibit 35026, turning your attention to page 3 and 4. And why don't you just take a minute there and review that, Mr. Hussain. MS. BRODY: Your Honor, does the Court have a complete set of 3500 material? THE COURT: Well, I did at one point. It's not here. MS. BRODY: If the Court would prefer, it's easy for me to hand up the documents. THE COURT: I would much prefer that. MS. BRODY: You got it, Judge. THE COURT: More paperwork up here I don't need. It's binders and binders of stuff. BY MS. BRODY: Q. Does that refresh your recollection that the court asked you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that you told the court you reviewed it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you told the court that there were no factual objections to the report? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that means everything in the report was true and accurate, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1242 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Now let's turn our attention to the actual presentence report. Do you recall -- withdrawn. Isn't it a fact that you told the probation officer that from early 1994 -MS. BRODY: And for the government, I'm on page 9. Q. -- that in early 1994 until October of 1995 you leased, leased the premises at 84 Main Street, Glens Falls. That's what you told the probation officer. Now would you agree that early 1994 is before August of 1994, Mr. Hussain? MR. RASKIN: Objection to form. THE COURT: The objection is overruled. A. No, ma'am. Q. Early 1994 comes after August of '94? A. I didn't understand your question, ma'am. Q. On your asylum application you said you left Pakistan in November of 1994? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. In your probation report, which you told the court -- you swore in court that the facts in it were true; do you recall that? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You told probation that for a year and a half, from early 1994 until October 1995, you leased the premises at 84 Main SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1243 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross Street. That's what you told probation. A. The year would be wrong, ma'am. Q. The year would be wrong? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Well, you told -- but the judge asked you if there were any inaccuracies, didn't he? A. Yes. Q. So when you told the judge you reviewed it and there was nothing wrong, you were making a misrepresentation to the judge in Albany? A. I made a mistake of the years, ma'am. Q. You made a mistake? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Showing you what has been marked -- I'm not going to show it to you yet. Do you recall submitting an application for a dealership to Getty? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that application was filed on February 25th, 1996? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And the question that they asked before you fill out the application or at the end is: Do you hereby represent that all of the above answers are true and complete to the best of your knowledge? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you signed that application; did you not? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1244 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that was so that you could lease a Getty, own Getty? What was that for? A. It was a dealership lease. Q. And you were submitting this to Getty National, Getty International? A. Getty National. Q. And you knew they would rely on the information in these documents, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you signed it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you said it was true? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And it requires you to put down your employment history? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you put down on your employment history from 1994 to 1995 you worked for SPI Gas. That's what you put down on the Getty application? A. Sorry, what gas? Q. SPI, BP. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Was that a mistake? A. No, that's correct, I worked for the company. That was my first job. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1245 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross Q. That was your first job? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You've previously testified you didn't have a job until 1995, January, February, possibly March. A. I started with SPI in '95, yes, ma'am. Q. And how about A&G Petroleum? You put down on the application that you started there in 1994. A. They were both the sister companies owned by two bothers. Q. How is it that you were working in '94 on these applications? A. I was not working in '94. Q. Sorry? A. I was working in '95. Q. So it was a mistake on these applications? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. But you said that everything here was true; is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. This was 1996. About how much money had you accumulated by 1996? A. I don't know, ma'am. Q. Well, on the application it says at the height you were making -- the most that you were making was about $600 a week from SPI. Would that have been about right? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 09FTCRO3 Hussain - cross Q. Sorry, it was $600 a month; is that right? A. I don't know. THE COURT: Finish with this little bit, Ms. Brody, and then I have a lunch meeting. MS. BRODY: Your Honor, this bit will go on. THE COURT: It will go on for a while. Then let's break and come back at two. Don't discuss the case, keep an open mind, folks. (Luncheon recess taken) (Continued on next page) 1246 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1247 Hussain - cross AFTERNOON SESSION 2:05 THE CLERK: Case on trial continued. The government and defendants are present. The jurors are not present, but they are present in the jury room. We're ready to go. THE COURT: Well, in that case, let's get the jury in here and get the witness back on the stand first. THE CLERK: Okay. MS. BRODY: Your Honor -- oh, no. I have already talked to the government, they don't have them. (Witness resumes the stand) THE CLERK: Jurors, please. THE MARSHALL: Jury entering. (Jury present) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. BRODY: THE COURT: Sir, you're still under oath. Q. Is it your testimony that the employment history on your Getty application was accurate? A. It should be, ma'am, yes. Q. And your information on your application for Getty and your presentence report were consistent, were they not? A. Apart from the year was wrong on the presentencing, everything was accurate, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 09FTCRO3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1248 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross Q. Well, the presentencing report, essentially, follows this employment history. And this employment history refers to 1994. A. 1994 will be incorrect, ma'am. Q. So you -A. It would be a mistake, ma'am. Q. It's a mistake on the application? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. The application is signed in '96, is it not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And it had an area for personal financial statement? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And in the personal financial statement -- and now you have been here 16 months in America, you were doing pretty well; weren't you? A. Yes, ma'am. I mean I was working 14 to 16 hours. Q. Making $4 an hour? A. From four to -- it went to six or seven. I don't recall how much it went. Q. When did you first buy your own station? A. In 1996 -- 1996, yes. Q. Was -- was this the application for your first station? A. The Getty? No, that was the second station, ma'am. Q. When did you buy your first station? A. 1996. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1249 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross Q. So you were going to own two stations in 1996? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. And approximately how much were you making from the first station you owned? Approximately. A. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. Five thousand a month, 10,000 a month? A. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. Well, when you filed this application, you said you had $40,000 in cash on hand in the bank. A. I received $50,000 from my family in 1996 to buy that station. It cames in Glens Falls National Bank. It was wired from Bank Sun to my bank. Q. Your family sent you 50,000? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So that's where the $40,000 came from? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Where did the hundred thousand dollars in stocks come from? A. I don't -- I don't understand your question. Q. On your financial affidavit, in 19 -- in April of 1996 on your Getty application, it -- it has a financial affidavit statement -- a personal financial statement. And under "Assets" you put: Stocks $100,000. Where did you get $100,000 in stocks A. That must be from Pakistan stocks, we're talking about. My company owns a lot of money and -- a lot of companies, so -- my SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1250 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross family, actually. And it must be one of those stocks I would be talking about, ma'am, in the application. Q. But you have no independent recollection of why you would have put down $100,000 in stocks? A. No, ma'am. Q. Well, you didn't make a $152,000 working $4 an hour for 16 months, did you? A. No, ma'am; not at all, ma'am. Q. And you put down that your salary was $1,600 a month; do you recall that? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that your commissions were a little bit more than three -- that -- I think it says 2,000. The Xerox is not -correct? Would that have been accurate. A. Something like that; yes, ma'am. Q. You also put down on your prior employment record, it asked for supervisor's names? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Doesn't Abdul mean "son of"? A. No, ma'am. Q. What does "Abdul" mean? A. Abdul is a name. Q. It's just a name. A. "Bin" means "son of." If you say B-I-N, that means son of. Abdul is a name. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1251 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross Q. And most people with the name Abdul, they have a last name? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Well, you worked for A and -- is it "R" petroleum? A. A&G Petroleum. Q. A&G Petroleum? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And your supervisor's name was Abdul. You didn't know his last name? A. Yes, I did, ma'am. Q. But you didn't put it down on the application? A. Could be a mistake, ma'am. Q. So that's another mistake. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. At SPI, your manager there, also a different Abdul or a different Abdul? A. They are two brothers. Their last name is Abdul. Q. Their last name is Abdul? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So you didn't put a first name down. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So that was another mistake? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Then this asks for references? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. When did you first meet John Arthur? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1252 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross A. John Arthur is from Pakistan. And he is a friend of mine. Q. From Pakistan. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you put down Shakeel. And you have known Shakeel for five years? Where did you know Shakeel from? A. I knew his family from Pakistan, ma'am. Q. And was Shakeel his first or last name? A. Mr. Shakeel, is the same guy, Abdul, who owns SBI Company, ma'am. Q. So is his name Shakeel Abdul, or Abdul Shakeel? A. Is Abdul Shakeel. Q. So on this Getty application, we have some mistakes, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. But that is your signature, isn't it? A. Should be my signature, yes, ma'am. MS. BRODY: Your Honor, at this time, defendant moves the Getty application, defendant's exhibit 7, into evidence. MR. RASKIN: Objection, hearsay. THE COURT: Oh, I'll let it in. (Defendant's Exhibit 7 received in evidence) THE COURT: I'm sure you were actually offering it, Ms. Brody. MS. BRODY: Oh, I apologize. Q. Now at a point in time, do you recall testifying in Albany? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1253 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And when you testified in Albany, that was under oath; wasn't it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And it was part of your cooperation agreement, was it not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And part of your cooperation agreement was that you be truthful whenever the government needed you to testify? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Whether it be in grand jury, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Or at a trial, like you're doing here? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. But you were also cooperating up in Albany, were you not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And when you testified up in Albany, you were asked when did you come to the United States. And you said: I believe 1993 or 1994. Were you not sure when you came to America? A. No, ma'am, I wasn't. Q. You were not sure when you came to America? A. But I'm showing 1994, so I -- I -- I say 1993, that was a mistake, ma'am. Q. Was it also a mistake on cross-examination, when you were asked a similar question, and you said: I came to this country SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1254 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross in 1990, '93, '94? A. I don't recall that. Q. Showing you page 783 of the Albany transcript, which we have received from the government. And, again, I apologize. And I don't have the 3500 number on it. Page 7. MR. BRAVERMAN: 09. MS. BRODY: 09? Q. Showing you what has been marked defendant's exhibit 8 for identification, does this refresh your recollection that you said '90, '93, '94? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So you did say '90, '93, '94; did you not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Now, the asylum application -- returning to that. Is this your handwriting on the asylum application? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you wrote this statement, did you not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And, again, it was important that you tell the truth; was it not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Because you did not want to get deported, did you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And on the asylum application, you told the officer, in your very own handwriting -- was this reviewed by you? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1255 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross A. Sorry? Q. Did you review the your statement before you signed it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you had your attorney with you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Where did you get the money to hire an attorney? A. I believe he took just $300 from me at that time. Q. Well, you came into the country with 2,000 -A. Yes, ma'am. Q. -- you were in Albany for a period of time. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You had a wife and a couple of kids. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. On your asylum application, you stated you had been arrested for kidnapping. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. When was the first time you told any government, United States government agent, that you had been arrested for murder? A. You mean -- I mean which part of the government you're talking about. THE COURT: Any part of the government. Q. Pick any part you want, Mr. Hussain. A. In 1994, when I went to INS, I told them. Q. I have your statement here, Mr. Hussain. A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1256 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross Q. You said you were arrested for kidnapping. You wrote this statement; correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You signed the statement. A. It was charges against me, kidnapping and murder, but -and that's what I -- what I wrote in there. Q. That's exactly what you wrote. But you did not write down that you were ever arrested for murder. You said a number of people. You said: 15,000 workers were arrested, including myself, on different charges, such as torture. I think the word is "sexuality," although -what would that word be? A. I have to review that to look at it, ma'am. Q. Okay. Showing you page 3, of the application. I'll just put a little flag here. If you could just tell us what that word is that seems to start with an S? MR. RASKIN: Ms. Brody, this is 3502-135, which is I think defendant's six? Is that what we're looking at? MS. BRODY: Yes. Q. What is that word. What is that S word, there. A. I can't -- can I read -- sorry. Q. It's one word. A. I just need to -- I have not read the statement for a very long time -SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1257 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross Q. Well, you don't need to read the statement. You just need to tell us what that word is? MR. RASKIN: Objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Please. Please, please. Q. And it says you were taken -- you said you were taken from your home? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. On charges that I have kidnapped certain people, opponents of the other party. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. That's what you said in your sworn statement. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. There is nothing in here about you, personally, having been arrested for murder. When was the first time you told somebody you were arrested for murder? THE COURT: You mean somebody in the United States government? MS. BRODY: An agent. A. I told Agent Cole. I told the immigration officers, both times. And I told my handlers in Albany, Agent Cole, too. Q. You told Agent Cole? A. Yes, sir -- yes, ma'am. Q. You were not arrested until 2002, correct? A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1258 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross Q. And this was written in '94? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Showing you what's been marked defendant's exhibit 9, which is government exhibit 3502-136. These are the agent's notes from that interview. Why don't you take a moment and see if you can find anything about you telling an agent you were ever arrested for murder. A. Is nothing in this application. Q. And those are the notes from the person who interviewed you, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Do you think the INS officer had the right to know the truth about why you were arrested? A. Of course, ma'am; yes. Q. Was that another mistake, Mr. Hussain? A. I believe I told them that I was -- they charged me for murder, but I don't know. Q. But it's not in your statement, is it? A. Sorry? Q. It's not in your statement? A. Correct. Q. It was not in your statement that you handwrote for INS? A. No, ma'am. Q. And it wasn't in the notes of the INS agent who interviewed you, correct; you had an opportunity to review this? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1259 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Now, you also told INS that the only identification you provided was a homemade political party ID; that would have been an MQM homemade ID? A. The MQM ID, identification. Q. You fled Pakistan because you were a member of MQM; correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you took that MQM membership card out of Pakistan, into Moscow, into Mexico, up to Albany. And that was the only document you had? A. No, ma'am. I did not have that document with me at the time of the port of entry. It was made later. Q. Showing you 3502-136. This is the first page of the interview notes. A. Yes ma'am. Q. And it says: No ID other than a homemade political party. ID; doesn't it say that? A. At the time of the interview, I had that ID with me. But it was -- it came in the mail later on. It was not at the time when I entered United States, ma'am. Q. How did it come to you later on? A. By mail, ma'am. Q. So you were able to get this document out of Pakistan, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1260 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You have an undergraduate degree in business; do you not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You have a masters degree -- is that in finance? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You went to a university, correct? A. Khyber University. Q. You graduated from a reputable university in Pakistan? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. It's a good university? A. One of the best, ma'am. Q. That's what I understand. And they keep records there, don't they? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Now between the time you filed your application for asylum and the two subsequent interviews, did you make any attempt to get your college transcript from Pakistan? A. No, ma'am. Q. Did you make any attempt to get your birth certificates? A. No, ma'am. Q. Did you make any attempt to get your marriage certificate? A. No, ma'am -- I believe I got the marriage certificate; yes, ma'am. Q. You got what? A. The marriage certificate. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1261 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross Q. You made no attempt to get documents that would show you actually graduated and had a masters degree, but you had somebody in Pakistan mail a homemade MQM document? A. Also my marriage certificate, ma'am. And my birth certificate for my sons. Q. And where were your birth certificates for your sons, because INS didn't see those. A. It was given to my lawyers, ma'am; immigration lawyer. Q. But it was never given to INS? A. I don't know, ma'am. Q. You don't remember? A. I don't remember. Q. Do you recall if you gave your marriage certificate to INS? A. No. I gave to my lawyer, ma'am. Q. Well, didn't you participate in this immigration process, Mr. Hussain? A. Yes, I did, ma'am. Q. And you don't recall whether you gave certain documents to immigration? A. My immigration lawyer asked me for the marriage certificate and birth certificate on my case, which I provided to my immigration lawyer. Q. And you didn't bother getting any of your documents from the university? A. He didn't ask me. If he would have, I would have got it, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1262 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross ma'am. Q. And when you were interviewed by immigration, you had some kind of business stationery, isn't that correct? A. I don't recall, ma'am, what I had. It was 17 years ago, ma'am. Q. Fifteen. Now, shortly after -- let's go back a minute. Your asylum application is not entirely true, is it, Mr. Hussain? A. I don't know, ma'am. It was the lawyer who fill it up, so I don't know. Q. No, it was your handwriting, Mr. Hussain. You said it was your handwriting, didn't you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. That was a lie, wasn't it. You didn't come here in 1994, did you, Mr. Hussain? A. I did come in 1994. Q. You came here long before. A. No, ma'am. Q. Then how is it you have no recollection of when you went to work, when you changed jobs, and no recollection of the process of immigration, Mr. Hussain? A. I said 1994; 1993, 1994. I made a mistake on 1993, ma'am. THE COURT: You are not responding to the question. THE WITNESS: Sorry. Give me -- can you repeat the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1263 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross question again, ma'am. MS. BRODY: Can it be read back, please? (Readback) A. I do have recollection that I came in 1994, ma'am. I made a mistake on 1993. Q. So you're saying the asylum application year is correct, right? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. But a lot of the information is incorrect, correct? A. Years is incorrect; yes, ma'am. Q. And on the Getty application, you're saying that the years that you were employed, that was incorrect, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Little confusing. And you are also saying that when you talked to probation, you were making mistakes when you gave the years on your employment, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Despite the fact that you told the Judge that there were no errors, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And were you lying to the Judge? A. No, ma'am. Q. Well, it couldn't be accurate that you were working in 1994 -SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1264 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross A. No, ma'am. Q. -- and being tortured in Pakistan in '94, correct? A. I changed my lawyer while I was in probation office, and doing my probation. And I got Mr. Ackerman at the same day, because I had to fire the first lawyer. So most of the paperwork -- Mr. Ackerman had read about me, and not talk about me. So I did not have the chance to discuss with him, because in 1996 I moved to Tennessee. And I made a -- I mean I didn't read the paper carefully. Because it came -- I came from the flight from Tennessee and -- the same day I hired Mr. Ackerman. And I made a mistake on that, so. Q. The judge asked:Mr. Ackerman, how long have you been representing Mr. Hussain? This is from the sentencing transcript, page 2. Your attorney, Mr. Ackerman, who you say you hired on a flight back from Tennessee: For the record, Judge, I have been representing him for almost two years. This was in front of the judge in court. I went over the original report of May 19th, 2003. I went over the addendum with my client. I have talked to probation. We have done everything in my office with my client. The Court: Mr. Hussain, have you gone over the presentence report with your lawyer. Mr. Hussain answers: Yes, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1265 Hussain - cross The Court: Do you have any objections to the factual accuracy of the report? Mr. Ackerman says: We find it to be accurate. The Court: Mr. Hussain, do you have any objections to the facts that are in this report? You said: No, sir? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So is it a lie you had just hired Mr. Ackerman, or was Mr. Ackerman lying about when you hired him. A. Okay. Mr. Ackerman has been representing me without my absence in Albany through the FBI, because there was a -some -- some news media that was writing -Q. That's not the question, Mr. Hussain. I'm asking you was he representing you for two years? A. I have never met Mr. Ackerman -THE COURT: Yes or no. THE WITNESS: Sorry? THE COURT: Was he representing you for two years at the time he made that statement to the judge. THE WITNESS: No, ma'am. No, ma'am, he wasn't. THE COURT: And the statement you made to the judge is not accurate; is that what you're saying? THE WITNESS: No. The statement to the judge is right. But I also -- I didn't meet Mr. Ackerman -Q. Mr. Hussain, had you hired Mr. Ackerman two years before SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 09F0CRO4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1266 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross you were sentenced? Yes or no. A. No, ma'am. Q. So when he said he -- when he said he had been representing you for two years, your testimony is that your attorney lied? A. He was representing me through the FBI, but not -Q. Either you hired him or you didn't. A. No, I did not hire him. Q. This is not difficult. A. No. Q. And you didn't correct that in front of the Judge, did you? A. No, ma'am. Q. So you lied to the Judge in Albany? A. It looks like, ma'am. Q. It does look like that, Mr. Hussain. THE COURT: And we don't need the commentary, Ms. Brody. MS. BRODY: Yes, your Honor. Q. Now, moving right along. Your initial presentence report, which was done on May 19th, 2006 -A. Yes, ma'am. Q. -- has a section on -- what it doesn't have is your presentence report has nothing about you being tortured in Pakistan. Your presentence report has nothing about your arrest. Is that correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1267 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross A. Yes, ma'am. Q. The presentence report has nothing about you being arrested for kidnapping, does it? A. They didn't ask me that question, ma'am. Q. Mr. Hussain, Probation didn't say to you: Have you ever been arrested for anything? A. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. You don't recall. But you would agree there is nothing in here about your arrest for kidnapping, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And there is nothing in here about your arrest for murder? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. In fact, there is nothing in this about, I believe, your trading company, but there is something about you having left Pakistan because you had six chains of restaurants which were taken over by the court, taken over by the government? MR. RASKIN: Objection, compound; form generally. THE COURT: It is a problemmatic question -MS. BRODY: It is problemmatic. THE COURT: -- ms. Brody. Q. You told Probation that you had six restaurant chains, did you not? A. Yes, ma'am. My family had. Q. I'm sorry? A. My family has six chains of restaurant. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1268 Hussain - cross MR. BRICCETTI: I'm going to move to strike the last answer. He is repeatedly not responsive. I'm asking that the witness answer the question. THE COURT: Okay. I guess I have to go back over the rules, sir. THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. THE COURT: As I told you this morning, Ms. Brody was going to ask you questions that could be answered yes or no. And she has not disappointed in that; she is asking you questions that can be answered yes or no. Answer them yes or no. THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. THE COURT: She is not asking you about your family, she is asking you about you. THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. BY MS. BRODY: Q. In fact, you didn't mention anything about your family. You stated to Probation, or you affirmed when you said the report was correct, that you owned and operated six village restaurant chains? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you said you were making a hundred thousand dollars a year and -A. Yes, ma'am. Q. -- and that the government demolished them due to your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 09F0CRO4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1269 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross controversial political affiliations. Is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Or was that a mistake as well? A. No. That is correct, ma'am. Q. So when you said you owned them, you didn't personally own them, did you; the family owned them? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So that was a small mistake, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You also did a financial statement on your presentence report, did you not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And, in fact, it was a sworn financial affidavit. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you reported assets totaling $186,000; do you recall that? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. That was in -- did you do an updated financial between 2003 and 2006? A. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. You don't recall. A. No, ma'am. Q. Well, from whatever financial this was, you represented that your house was worth $160,000, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1270 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross Q. Now, that was in May, wasn't it? A. May of what year, ma'am? Q. 2003. Right? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Five months later, you filed a bankruptcy petition, didn't you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that bankruptcy petition, you hired another lawyer, didn't you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And this -- at that time, you were living on the Lauden Road, is that how we pronounce it? A. Lauden Road. Q. You were living on Lauden Road, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And when you filed your bankruptcy petition, that was a bankruptcy petition for a Chapter 13, was it not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And the Chapter 13 -- I'm not a bankruptcy lawyer, but my understanding -- and you'll affirm or not -- is that it was to work out your debts, wasn't it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Because you had a lot of debts at that time. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And this was after your arrest, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1271 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And this was after you had met with Probation? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And in your bankruptcy petition, you filed, again swearing an oath to the truth of the statements, that your house was worth $125,000? A. Yes. Q. How is it your house lost close to $40,000 in value in five months? A. My lawyer, Michael O'Connor -Q. I don't want to hear about your lawyer. Did the house devalue? MR. RASKIN: The witness is trying to answer the open-ended question, your Honor. THE COURT: I actually think it is a perfectly fair answer that he is trying to give, Ms. Brody. MS. BRODY: Okay. THE COURT: Sounds that way. Go ahead and finish your answer, sir. A. My lawyer, Michael O'Connor, hired an assessment guy who assessed my house at $125,000, ma'am. Q. He assessed your house at $125,000. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Did you ever tell Probation that your -- your lawyer was Richard Crote; wasn't it? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1272 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross A. Just for just for couple of datings. Q. But he is the one who filed the petition? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And he is the one who had the number here of 125 in your petition? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Some lawyer had the house assessed at 125. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. But you had told Probation it was worth 160, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you never changed that for Probation? A. No, ma'am. Q. So that was another mistake, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Now, in your bankruptcy, you list four cars; you list a Ford Crowne; do you recall that? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Ford Contour. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Mercedes Benz? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You owed a lot of people a lot of money, didn't you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You had debts from the various markets you owned, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1273 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross Q. You had debts from -- you had debts from the health system going back a number of years, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And despite the fact that you were in Chapter 13 and this was filed a few months after your presentence report, you had a three cars, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. As a matter of fact, the month before your bankruptcy, you bought another car, a Chevy. Do you recall that? A. I might have, ma'am; yes, ma'am. Q. Your house burned down in November of '03, did it not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Do you recall testifying in Albany that you filed bankruptcy because your house burned down? A. I don't recall that. Q. You don't remember that? A. No, ma'am. Q. But that would have been a mistake, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Because you filed bankruptcy before the house burned down, isn't that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you say you moved to Tennessee in 1996? A. No. In 1995, or four; in between those years. Q. In 1994 or five? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1274 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Could it have been 2004? A. Sorry, 2004. I'm sorry. Q. Another mistake. I totally understand -THE COURT: Right, Ms. Brody. Q. And you moved down to Tennessee. And down in Tennessee, you rent a house, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And your house had burned down, right? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You had insurance on that house? A. No, ma'am. I did not have insurance on that at that time. Q. The mortgage broker had insurance on the house, did they not? A. I didn't know that. I -- I don't believe they had insurance on the house at that time. Q. But you know about a check for $243,000, don't you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you know that check was from an insurance company, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And the check was the insurance company paying you and your wife, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You're joint owners in the house, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1275 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Joint owners, joint filers in the bankruptcy petition? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. The check was to rebuild your house, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And not long after you got the check, a number of your creditors were moving against you for your failure to make payments into the bankruptcy court, isn't that correct? A. Say that question again, ma'am. Q. Yes. You received the check for the insurance. Correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And despite having received that check, you failed to make your agreed-upon bankruptcy payments; isn't that correct? A. Could be right; yes, ma'am. Q. As a matter of fact, you failed to make those payments on a number of occasions, didn't you? A. Could be right; yes, ma'am. Q. And while you failed to make your payments to your creditors, you rented a house in Germantown, Tennessee? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. In February 2004, you bought Big Star, LLC in Memphis, Tennessee, didn't you? A. With four other partners. Q. That's right, with four other partners. And where did you get the money to do that, Mr. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1276 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross Hussain? A. The check that I got from the insurance company, I gave to bankruptcy court. I did not keep that check. THE COURT: No, no, but that wasn't her question. THE WITNESS: Okay. THE COURT: Her question, sir -- strike that answer. THE WITNESS: Okay. THE COURT: Her question was where did you get the money to buy the asset that you were just talking about. THE WITNESS: I did not have to pay any money for that, the business. THE COURT: Did you get that, Ms. Brody? MS. BRODY: One moment, Judge. Q. Mr. Hussain, there was a great deal of litigation over that particular insurance check, wasn't there? A. Sorry, ma'am. Q. There was a great deal of litigation in bankruptcy court over that insurance check, wasn't there? A. I -- I don't know, ma'am, I don't recall. Q. Well, do you recall a company -- do you have a company called Castle Creek? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Now Castle Creek had bought up a number of your debts, didn't they? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1277 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross Q. And Castle Creek actually went into bankruptcy court and asked that you not be allowed to dissipate those assets, didn't they? A. Sorry? I didn't get the question. Q. Castle Creek went into bankruptcy court and filed a motion to prevent you from dissipating that insurance check? A. I don't know ma'am. I don't know. Q. You don't remember? A. No, ma'am. Q. And you don't remember that that check did not go into bankruptcy court? A. I gave that check to my lawyer of the bankruptcy court, Michael O'Connor. As soon as I got the check, I brought the check back to Michael O'Connor. I gave the check to him. I said this is check I got from the insurance company. And so he had the check, and make disbursement, whatever he did. So I don't know what he did. Q. Weren't you going to use that money to rebuild your house? A. I was not allowed to stay in Albany at that time by the FBI. Q. You were not allowed to stay in Albany at that time? A. No, ma'am. Q. Didn't you go for various building permits? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Well, so you were going to rebuild the house? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1278 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross A. Yes. After we had built the house, we thought we would move in, but there was options to those, ma'am. Q. Do you remember your wife receiving an 83,000-dollar check relating to that insurance check? A. The -- the -- my wife received a check, but that check went to Michael O'Connor, too. We did not receive any money on that. Q. The check went to -MR. RASKIN: Your Honor, I'm going to object on relevance grounds, or have a proffer of where we're going with this. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. The check actually went to -- to Castle Creek, didn't it? A. I don't know, ma'am. Q. Would you be surprised to learn they returned the check because they wanted quite a bit more than you were willing to pay them. A. Everybody was paid hundred percent with 9 percent interest until the time I borrowed the money until the time I paid. Each and every debtor was paid in full. And so I don't know, I did not take any money of check and use it. Q. How was it each and every debtor was paid in full, Mr. Hussain? A. Castle Creek bought a lot of those debts for ten cents on dollar. And there was about 200,000. My family send me some SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1279 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross money. And I paid to -- my family's assets, to each and every debtor. Q. And but there were a number of times during your years -and there were a number of years you were in bankruptcy court, correct? A. Sorry? Q. There were a number of years -- you were in bankruptcy court for a number of years. A. Actually, I paid all my debtors in full with interest of 9 percent in 2000 -- by 2005. But I was still in a couple of years, but I don't believe I owed any money in 2006 and seven. I don't recall. Because each and all of the money was given to my lawyers, that money I received from Pakistan, and I give to my lawyer. Q. A lot of the debts were actually just written off, you didn't pay 9 percent on them, did you? A. I don't know. But any debts checks that Michael O'Connor said you need this money, I paid him. So I don't know how -who he paid, and who he didn't pay. Q. None of that is in any of your bankruptcy filings? A. There are a lot of debts that was paid directly to debtors, and not through bankruptcy court, and through my lawyers, ma'am. Q. But your assets were to go into the bankruptcy court? A. Sorry? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1280 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross Q. The assets that you had were to go into bankruptcy court, they would go to trustees in bankruptcy court, weren't? A. The trustee and my lawyer had both agreement that my lawyer, Michael O'Connor, will handle all my assets, and claim to the trustees, so I don't know how they were handling each other. Q. You rely a lot on lawyers, don't you, Mr. Hussain? A. Yes, ma'am, I do. Q. So you're telling me that all of the various judgments, your testimony is these debts were paid off? A. I believe any debtors that came to my lawyer were paid in full, with interest, ma'am. Q. They were not supposed to go to the lawyer, they were supposed to go to the trustee in bankruptcy. A. Trustee had agreement with my lawyer, ma'am. That's what my understanding is. Q. Now, while you were in bankruptcy, you bought additional cars; you registered an Audi in November of 2005, correct? A. I might have; yes, ma'am. Q. Now, there was also another problem at this time, wasn't there, with your kids attending school? A. Sorry, ma'am? Q. There was a problem with -- wait. Let's do the cars. Wait a second, I'm sorry. On May 8th, in 2006, you bought a Dodge in Tennessee? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1281 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross Dodge Ram, in Tennessee? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And on the same day you bought a Chevy Tahoe, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And on the very same day you bought a BMW? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you filed an amended filing with Chapter 13 on 6/30, and none of these assets are listed in that amended petition. Would you know why? A. No, ma'am. Q. And then there was a problem in 2006. Where were you living in June? A. Sorry, ma'am? Q. In June of 2006, where were you living? A. I think I was in Tennessee, or in upstate New York. Q. Do you recall filing a letter with the School District in Albany that you were rebuilding your house and wanted your children to remain in the School District? MR. RASKIN: Objection, relevance. And additional concerns that I can explain at the sidebar, your Honor. THE COURT: Well, I'll take the relevance objection for now. And I'll sustain the objection. And when we have a break, Ms. Brody, you can try to talk me out of that. Let's go on. Q. In 2006, in August, you did rebuild that house, didn't you? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1282 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you actually sold it for $450,000, didn't you? A. Yes, ma'am, I did. Q. And that was shortly after your bankruptcy closed. A. I received over 200,000 -- my lawyer gave hundred thousand dollars to a contractor. And he took off. And I had to file a police report against him. And then I took another money from family to build that house. Q. You sold the house for $450,000? A. Yes, ma'am, I did. Q. Now, this is before you were sentenced, was it not? A. I don't -- I don't remember, ma'am. Q. You were sentenced in October of 2006, Mr. Hussain. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Do you recall that? And July is before October, is it not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And there is no record of you receiving any type of assets in that Probation report, Mr. Hussain. Was that a mistake? A. Sorry? Q. There is nothing in your presentence report about you selling the house for $450,000, is there? A. I don't remember, ma'am. I don't recall. Q. Well, in the presentence report, you list your house -SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1283 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross what house would that have been listed in your presentence report. A. The Lauderville house, ma'am. Q. You already sold it, so why would it be in your presentence report; was it a mistake? A. I don't remember which house you're talking about, I'm sorry. Q. I don't either. I'm showing you your presentence report, page 10, paragraph 46. Can you recall what house this might have been. A. Paragraph, ma'am? What paragraph would that be, ma'am. Q. What house that might have been. That's your presentence report. THE COURT: Point him to the paragraph, would you please. MS. BRODY: Didn't I just say -THE COURT: You did, but -Q. It lists your assets at paragraph 46. What house would that have been? A. Isn't this from 2003, ma'am? Q. No, this is -MS. BRODY: Your Honor, may we have a sidebar? THE COURT: Yeah, I think we have to. Come on up here. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 09F0CRO4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Hussain - cross (Continued on next page) 1284 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1285 Hussain - cross (At the side bar) THE COURT: Bring the PSI up here. All right, Ms. Brody, you're referring to paragraph 46? MS. BRODY: Uh-huh. THE COURT: And you're referring to -MS. BRODY: The house. THE COURT: -- a house. Let's see. House valued at $160,000. MS. BRODY: Uh-huh. THE COURT: And you're asking him what house that is. MS. BRODY: Uh-huh. Now, here's the problem, because we have this very redacted version, and -THE COURT: It's not a problem, Ms. Brody. Everything that he said has been given to you. Everything that he said to the probation department has been given to you, okay. MS. BRODY: And we know that there must have been the addendum filed, because on the last page, the first -- the first disclosure was May 19th, 2003, is our understanding. Because that is what the government tells us. We don't know one way or another. But we think it is. But on the last page, it does have a bad check for -- from 2006. So, probation officer is not a guru. So there had to have been an addendum. And I'm assuming this is the final, because this is all we SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 09F0CRO4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1286 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross have. But because of the 2006, we're making the assumption that the addendum was incorporated. And any changes would have been made in what we have received. THE COURT: I don't know, Ms. Brody. Right now, we're asking a question about a house in paragraph 46. I can tell you that I went through this thing, and Mr. O'Neal went through it after me with a fine tooth comb. And anything that was, arguably, a statement by the defendant -- witness, sorry, statement by the confidential informant, was left intact and given to you. Everything else, what was redacted, everything else is what was redacted and you have what I have, the version that I have, okay? MR. GOMBINER: Can we clarify, was there any financial disclosure affidavit attached to the presentence. THE COURT: There was not. MR. GOMBINER: There was not, okay. THE COURT: There was not. MR. GOMBINER: Thank you. MR. BRICCETTI: And while we're here, your Honor, the government sent us a letter saying that Mr. Hussain told his probation officer that he cut his wrists when he fell off a bike. Government says it's not true. I guess it's a mistake. But that's what he told the probation officer. That's not in the redacted version, so I appreciate the fact that your Honor and Mr. O'Neal did a lot of work, but it's not in what we have, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1287 09F0CRO4 Hussain - cross so that's why we would like to see it. And we can work with the letter, so -MR. RASKIN: Obviously a mistake. Talk to the witness about it. He denies making that statement. It is clearly a mistake by the probation officer. And it's collateral, so it's not -MR. GOMBINER: It was not -THE COURT: People. People, I'm not going to have -we're going to go back. I'm going to tell him to answer the question, which is: What house is that. And we're going to move on. MR. HICKEY: May I put something on the record. Your Honor actually had marked the margin with respect to the scar and noted specifically in the margin that it was not attributed to him in the statement. And that's why that part is also redacted. So your Honor saw the portion disclosed and ruled on it. THE COURT: But it was not attributed in the presentence report. That remark was not attributed to Mr. Hussain, okay. MS. BRODY: Then I won't ask him about that. THE COURT: Thanks for jogging my memory. (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 09FTCRO5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Hussain - cross 1288 (In open court) THE COURT: OK. Now we're going to wait until the court reporter is in place, and Mr. Hussain, Ms. Brody is showing you paragraph 46, and at the beginning of paragraph 46 there's a reference to a house. THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. THE COURT: A house that's worth $160,000. Her question is: What house is that? THE WITNESS: That would be the Loudonville house. THE COURT: The Loudonville house, thank you. BY MS. BRODY: Q. This was the house that you had sold a number of months before for $450,000, correct? A. I don't know when that report was written. THE COURT: Is that the house that you sold for $450,000? THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. THE COURT: It is. Q. And without being repetitive, the judge asked you if there were any changes in this report, didn't he? THE COURT: Any changes. Q. If the report was accurate. A. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. You were sentenced in October of 2006, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1289 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross Q. And you said you had sold the house and you bought or your wife bought the Hideaway Motel; is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You were still in bankruptcy court when you bought that Hideaway Motel, weren't you? A. I believe so, yes, ma'am. Q. The Hideaway Motel was never listed as an asset in any of your bankruptcy filings, Mr. Hussain. A. My understanding was that when we bought the motel each and every debtor was paid in full with interest, and my lawyer at that time -- I told my lawyer, Michael Conrad, who also represented me in that deal. If he listed it, didn't list it, I don't know, ma'am. Q. You had to sign the filings and you had to sign the addendums, Mr. Hussain; isn't that correct? A. I don't know, ma'am, what I have to sign, I don't know. Q. You have a masters in finance, Mr. Hussain? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Bankruptcy, if you will, deals with accounting, it deals with numbers, doesn't it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you have an undergraduate degree in accounting, don't you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you're saying what, the papers confused you or you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1290 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross didn't bother looking at them? A. Any papers -- the documents that was sent to my lawyers I looked at, but the other documents I did not, ma'am. Q. Well, you were required to alert your attorney if you acquired assets, weren't you? A. My lawyer represented me with the hotel, so I don't know, if my attorney did not list me, I cannot speak for my attorney, ma'am. Q. You can speak for yourself though, Mr. Hussain. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So you're saying you filed amended petitions with your signature in bankruptcy court that you never looked at? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. That would be a big mistake, wouldn't it? MR. RASKIN: Objection. A. Yes, ma'am. THE COURT: The objection is sustained. Let's strike the answer and move on, please. Q. The PSI also states that you were living in Latham in 2003. That was correct? A. After my house burned down, yes, ma'am. Q. Your house burned down in 2006? A. No, ma'am, in 2003. Q. 2003 the house burned down? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1291 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross Q. My apologies. And you were living in Latham at that time? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So if the house burned down in November of '03, correct? When did your house burn down? A. Some month in '03, but I don't recall what month is that, ma'am. Q. It was November of '03. Do you recall when your house burned down? A. You might be right, yes, ma'am. Q. How were you living in Latham before your house burned down? A. Latham is -- Loudonville is part of Latham, ma'am. Q. Turning your attention to what happened up in Albany with your criminal conduct, you owned the Getty Mart; is that true? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that was next to the Department of Motor Vehicles? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that was at -- was that at 222 South Pearl Street? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And 224 was the DMV, was it not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. If I say the DMV you know what I'm talking about, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you were also -- you have the Getty Mart, right? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1292 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross Q. You were also working part time as a translator? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. On your asylum application you stated that you had spoke three languages; is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And what three languages were they? A. English, Urdu and Dutch. Q. And you again you recall testifying in Albany on the Albany case? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you stated you were fluent in five languages when you testified in that court? A. There are a lot of dialects in my country, about 40 of them. I speak about 23 dialects and their languages. We call them languages but they are actually dialects. Q. So how many languages do you speak? A. I speak about three major languages and a lot of dialects, ma'am. Every 40 miles dialects changes in our country, ma'am. Q. And you were working for Cooper Translating up in Albany? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you have testified earlier that you were also working in federal court. Was that Albany? A. Actually I was doing translations for Cooper Translation Company and they would call me and send me to federal court, criminal courts, traffic courts, family courts and wherever SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1293 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross they wanted to send me. So it was not one court only, it was different courts at different days. Q. Would you be surprised to learn that federal court in the Northern District has no record of you interpreting there? A. There was a case of a lady that I interpreted, did a translation for her. Q. Well, some of the translating work you were doing was for the DMV; is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And Cooper paid you to translate for people who were taking their driving tests? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And employees of the DMV would come into Getty, right? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. They would buy soda, they would buy whatever? A. Yes. Q. Did you have a little food there? What did you have in your little mini-mart? A. Pizza store, Dunkin Donuts, everything. Q. Pretty profitable, wasn't it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. What do you think you made there a year? A. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. And you got friendly with these people from DMV, right? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1294 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross Q. Did you have a car insurance business? A. Sorry? Q. Did you have a car insurance business at that time? A. No, ma'am. Q. Did you have some kind of a car convenience business? A. No, not in 2003, no, ma'am. Q. Did there come a time when you did have some involvement in a car business? A. Yes, selling used cars, ma'am. Q. Selling used cars? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And when was that? A. 2007, '8, somewhere. Q. 2007. So in 2005 and '6 when you were buying all of these cars you weren't selling those in 2005 and '6? A. No, ma'am. Q. And this crime in Albany started when a gentleman by the name of -- is it Faruch? Who introduced you to -- is it Jamila? A. Sorry? Q. Who introduced you to Jamila in Albany? Jamila? I'm not saying it right. A gentleman in Albany introduced you to a woman which is how you began your criminal activity in Albany, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1295 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross Q. And that gentleman was? A. He was an insurance agent, ma'am. Q. He was an insurance agent? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And he introduced you to a young lady? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And told you the young lady needed a driver's license? A. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. Isn't that how your whole criminal conduct started with this young lady and getting her a DMV license? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You recall that, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you recall that she had a number of friends who needed driver's licenses, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. OK. And you became very friendly with her? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Matter of fact, you became very good friends with her? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You didn't mention to your wife what good friends you were with her, did you? A. No, ma'am. Q. No, no. Now there were actually two schemes in Albany, weren't SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1296 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross there? A. I don't know what you mean by that, ma'am. Q. One of your criminal conduct schemes was people would come to you and instead of you translating their written driving tests you would take their written driving tests, correct? A. I would give them answers. I wouldn't take them but I would give them the answers. Q. Well, if you were giving them the correct answers -A. Yes, ma'am. Q. -- that they did not have -A. Yes, ma'am. Q. -- wouldn't it be fair to say you were taking their tests? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And they paid you for that? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Now what did Cooper pay you for translating for standard driving tests? A. $60, ma'am. Q. And some of these people were paying you as much as a thousand dollars, weren't they? A. I don't recall anybody paying me a thousand dollars. Q. You don't recall it being a thousand dollars? A. Actually the money that was paid was paid to Jamila and Jamila used to give me money. I didn't get money directly from the people, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1297 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross Q. You didn't get any money directly from the people? A. Just one guy that was a sting by the FBI, that was the only person that I received money. Q. So these people would pay the lady and the lady would pay you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Do you remember testifying in Albany that you got $500 for this? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And do you remember testifying here that you got a thousand dollars for that? A. Yes, ma'am, from the sting operation, yes, ma'am. Q. Do you also remember testifying in Albany that you had to give the DMV employee $50 for every time they were involved in one of these fraudulent transactions? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Do you also recall in Albany saying you may have committed somewhere between 80 and 100 various transactions? A. I don't recall that. Q. You don't recall that. OK. You recall testifying in Albany, do you not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you were asked: "Q. And using your own discussions with Agent Kowal -Agent Kowal was your handler in Albany, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1298 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross A. Yes, ma'am. "Q. -- when you were finally arrested -Referring to the DMV transactions, you were asked whether or not you did that 80 to 100 or more times. Do you recall being asked that question? A. I might have, yes, ma'am. Q. And do you recall what you answered? A. No, ma'am. Q. The next question was: "Q. You came to the point where Agent Kowal wanted to know -Because when you were cooperating you had to tell him about all of your criminal activity, did you not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You had to tell him how many times you were involved in the false translating? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you had to tell them how many times you were involved with just getting somebody a fake driver's license. It's a real driver's license but they weren't entitled to it. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So those were two different schemes, aren't they? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Because the people -- you had some people who were just getting an ID or getting the driver's license, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1299 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross Q. And you had other people who you were translating for the written test, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you had to tell, to the best of your recollection, Agent Kowal, who was your handler, how many times you had committed each individual crime, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And the question was: "Q. And they learned about 80 to 100 times? Does that sound right to you? A. It could be, yes, ma'am. Q. How much do you think, average, you were getting from these various people? A. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. You don't recall? A. No, ma'am. Q. Could you make $20,000 from this? A. I don't -- I don't recall, ma'am. Q. Could it have been 50,000? A. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. Now when you got these people these fake licenses, these were illegal immigrants, many of them, weren't they? A. I don't know, ma'am. Q. You didn't talk to them? A. No, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1300 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross Q. Where did they come from? A. By Jamila. Q. If you were translating for somebody -- she sent you all the people you were translating for as well? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Well, did you split the proceeds with her? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Was there a percentage? A. No, ma'am. Q. You have no idea how that worked? A. No, ma'am. Q. But you do recall in the sting operation you got $500 up front before you delivered the license, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that went directly to you, didn't it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. It didn't go to her, it went to you? A. Yes. Q. And you got $500 after you delivered the fake license? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you understood at that time that each time you did it it was new fraud. You understand that? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And each of those you could have been prosecuted for? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1301 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross Q. All 80 to 100, however many it was? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And each of them could carry a separate sentence? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And at this time, as we sit here today, you are not a citizen yet of the United States, are you? A. No, ma'am. Q. You could be deported; is that true? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. When you went into the DMV and you were doing these tests, did you have to take any oath that you were translating accurately? A. No, ma'am. Q. So they didn't care whether you were translating accurately? A. No, ma'am. Q. Was Cooper Translating aware that you were not translating accurately? A. No, ma'am. Q. But they were paying you to translate? MR. RASKIN: Objection, move to strike. THE COURT: Overruled. A. Could you repeat the question again? Q. They weren't part of your scheme, were they? A. No, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1302 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross Q. They were paying for an honest job? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. But you weren't doing it honestly? A. No, ma'am. Q. And you did that a number of times over a number of years? A. Year, something like a year, ma'am. Q. Well, you've testified that the criminal activity started in 2000, correct? A. I didn't say 2000, ma'am, I said between 2002, ma'am. Q. Well, you weren't arrested until 2000, were you? A. I was arrested in 2003, ma'am. Q. January, January 2nd? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You were arrested on January 2nd, 2002. Does that sound familiar? A. I don't remember, ma'am. Q. You don't remember when you were arrested? A. No, ma'am. THE COURT: OK, Ms. Brody, we have to take a break here. Let's take our afternoon break, folks, don't discuss the case, keep an open mind. (Recess taken) THE COURT: You're still under oath. Ms. Brody, keep going. BY MS. BRODY: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1303 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross Q. Returning for a moment to your presentence investigation report, do you recall telling probation that you got a scar from falling off a bicycle? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You recall that? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Now what scar was that from falling off the bicycle? A. That's this one right here. MR. RASKIN: Witness indicated his forehead, I want that to be clear on the record. THE COURT: Thank you. Q. You didn't tell probation anything about the scar you received on your wrist; is that true? A. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. So if there's nothing in the probation report, you have no way of recalling independently whether or not you said anything? A. Yes, ma'am. MR. RASKIN: Objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Is that correct, sir? THE WITNESS: Sorry, ma'am. No, ma'am, I don't recall, ma'am. THE COURT: You don't recall. Thank you, next question. Q. But do you recall in the statement you sent to asylum for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1304 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross asylum that you put that you got the scar on your wrist in 1992. That's what you said in the asylum application. Do you recall that? A. I believe 1994, I don't remember 1992. Q. OK. You do recall testifying here that you got that in 1994. Do you recall that? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Do you recall telling probation that the crime in Albany started in 2000? Do you recall that? A. No, ma'am. Q. Showing you on your PSI, page 5, paragraph 13. Does this refresh your recollection? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So you began the criminal conduct at DMV in 2000. That would be correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And in fact, you told probation that many of the people were illegal aliens. Is it true that they were illegal aliens? A. They might have. I didn't see any passports or immigration paper. Q. Did you need -- withdrawn. If you told probation they were illegal, were you mistaken when you said that to probation? MR. RASKIN: Objection to form. THE COURT: If you told probation were you mistaken, I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1305 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross don't understand. MS. BRODY: Neither do. Q. Your PSI says that you told -- when you went to your presentence interview you had to tell them all about your crime, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Because you had to come clean to probation? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So you had to tell probation everything that you did in the commission of the crime? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you told probation that many of the people that you did this for were illegal? A. I might have told them, yes, ma'am. Q. And getting back to the wrist, you testified that your wrist was cut in 1994? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Was that the only injury that you sustained from the torture? A. Yes, ma'am, I believe so. Q. So it was significant, wasn't it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And it's something that you would remember? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you certainly would have remembered it in 1995 when you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1306 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross gave -- early 1995 when you gave your interview to INS? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. But you told the immigration officer that you were beaten and your wrist was cut in 1992. Would that have been a mistake, Mr. Hussain? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. It was pretty significant, though, when you got hurt? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you didn't recall a few months before that it was '94 or '92? A. It was the part of my life I just wanted to forget, ma'am. Q. You wanted to forget? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Well, you remember that your wrist got cut? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You were just two years off on remembering when? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You were arrested on January 3rd, 2002, correct? A. Could be right, ma'am. Q. And you have no independent recollection of when you were arrested? A. I thought it was 2003, but if you say 2002, that could be correct, ma'am. Q. Well, your complaint number is case number -- I have a magistrate number from '02 and your complaint was filed in '02 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1307 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross in Albany. Showing you the criminal complaint that has been marked Defendant's Exhibit 10 and is 3502, maybe 2, does this refresh your recollection as to when you were arrested, Mr. Hussain? A. Yes, ma'am. THE COURT: And when was that, by the way? Q. When were you arrested? A. 2002, ma'am, January. Q. January, OK, 2002. These people -- did you get Social Security numbers for these people? A. No, ma'am. Q. Well, how did you get them a driver's license without some kind of identification? A. There was no law at that time that driver's license people need your Social Security. Q. So you did the translating scheme, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And then you did -- the other scheme was somebody will come in and your friend at DMV would give them a driver's license even though they weren't who they really were? A. That I did only once, ma'am. Q. So the majority of it was the translation? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you told probation that most of them were illegal, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1308 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. In fact, you had been an illegal immigrant, weren't you? A. Sorry, ma'am? Q. You had been an illegal immigrant? A. I don't understand your question. MR. RASKIN: Objection, asked and answered. Q. You entered the country illegally? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So you had been -- you had been, before you got asylum, an illegal immigrant? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And these people were illegal immigrants, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you have testified that you and your family came into this country with less than $2,000? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And many of these people were not wealthy, would that be fair to say? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. They didn't speak English, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Were most of the translations that you did for people in Urdu or a dialect of Urdu? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1309 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross Q. So they came from the Middle East, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you took advantage of these people, didn't you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You put your family at risk with deportation? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. In fact, you put all of us at risk, didn't you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You understand what a driver's license can do for a person in America, right? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You can fly with it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You can go into a bank and begin getting documents with it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. It is a critical document, isn't it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So each time you did this you were putting all of us at risk? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You didn't think about that, did you? A. No, ma'am. Q. Each time you did this you were focused on the money, weren't you? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1310 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross Q. And you would agree that each time you were committing a new crime? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You wouldn't have been allowed, if you know -- let me rephrase that. Do you think you would have been allowed to stay in this country if you had been convicted of more than 50 felony counts? MR. RASKIN: Objection. THE COURT: The objection is sustained. Q. Did you declare on your income tax any of the money that you made from these criminal schemes? A. I don't recall, ma'am. I don't know. Q. Mr. Hussain, did everybody pay in cash except for on the sting operation? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Did you keep a record of who paid you money? A. No, ma'am. Q. Did you keep a record of how many times you did it? A. No, ma'am. Q. You cannot say with any certainty how much you made on any of the schemes, correct? A. No, ma'am. Q. So how could you possibly have paid income taxes if you didn't know how much money you made? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1311 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross A. I might have not paid income tax, no, ma'am, I don't recall. Q. So that would be a third crime, income tax fraud, wouldn't it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you were never prosecuted for income tax fraud? A. No, ma'am. Q. Part of your cooperation agreement with the government in Albany required you to file accurate tax returns; did it not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And as a matter of fact, the cooperation agreement specifically states that you're cooperating with the Albany U.S. Attorney's Office but you're not getting a pass on your income tax. You understood that, right? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So you understood you had a responsibility, if you had filed the false income tax, to file an amended income tax, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You're an accountant, right? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you kept no records of any of the money you made? A. No, ma'am. Q. How much of your Getty business was in cash? A. Sorry, ma'am? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1312 09FTCRO5 Hussain - cross Q. Your Getty mini-mart -A. Mm-hmm. Q. -- how much of that business was in cash? A. I don't understand the question, ma'am. Q. Well, people would come in and they would give you money to buy a soda, right? A. 80 percent was cash, yeah. Q. 80 percent of the business was cash? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. How much of that cash did you declare on your income tax? A. All of them, ma'am. Q. Declared all the cash? A. Yes, ma'am. (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1313 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct BY MS. BRODY: Q. When you were arrested, you initially had a federal public defender, did you not? A. Just for the first. Q. On your initial presentation before the Court. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that was January '03? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Do you recall whether or not, before you went in front of a judge in Albany the first time, whether or not you had to fill out a financial affidavit? A. I did not fill up any financial affidavit. Q. But you were just using the Federal Defender for the initial presentment, correct? A. Yes. Q. And you intended to retain counsel? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Which you did? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And after you retained counsel, your attorney explained to you the crimes and, legally, what you were facing, did he not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And he explained to you the Federal Sentencing Guidelines? A. No, ma'am. I don't remember. I don't recall. Q. Your attorney never told you the potential amount of time SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1314 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct you were looking at on your fraud? A. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. Do you recall that your sentencing guidelines were in your presentence report? A. Might be, ma'am, I don't recall it that I discussed with him. He might have talked to me, but I don't recall, ma'am. Q. Well, wouldn't you agree that what sentence you were going to get after you were arrested for a crime was a really important thing to know? A. Yes, it is. But I don't recall, ma'am. Q. Okay. But it's fair to say you were aware that you were looking at a great deal of time? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Now, that was in January of 2003, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you have been -- you were released on $10,000 bail? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you had various bail conditions? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And one of your bail conditions perhaps the most important bail condition -MR. RASKIN: Objection. THE COURT: The objection is sustained. One of your bail conditions. Q. Is you are not allowed to commit another crime. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 09f0cro6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Hussain - direct 1315 Is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you were out on bail from January of 2003 until October of 2006, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And during that time, you passed a number of bad checks, didn't you? A. No, ma'am. Q. 2002, you didn't pass bad checks? A. No, ma'am. Q. Okay. Can I have -- Mr. Hussain, on February 27th, 2006 while you were on bail, didn't you issue a bad check for $1940.55? A. I don't recall who was it issued to, ma'am. Q. Showing you your PSI. Does this refresh your recollection that you, in fact, issued a bad check. Just -- it's the last page, unnumbered. No paragraph. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that was not the first bad check you had issued, was it? A. No, ma'am. Q. No, because -A. That wasn't a bad check, ma'am. Q. Okay. A. That was a stopped check. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1316 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct Q. But you had to pay it, didn't you? A. We had $30,000 of mine, the gas company -Q. You had to pay the check, isn't that true? A. I gave the my lawyer the money. THE COURT: It's a yes or no question, sir. Did you pay the check? THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, I did pay. To my lawyer, yes. Q. And you had to go to criminal court on the check, your attorney didn't have to go to criminal court. Didn't you have to appear in criminal court? A. My lawyer went, not me, ma'am. Q. So in Warren County Municipal Court, when you were charged with a misdemeanor, you didn't have to ever go to court? A. No, ma'am. Q. And there was -- you were arrested in 1997, prior to Albany, for a bad check, weren't you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you told Presentence, that you hadn't written the check, that that was an employee, correct? A. My manager did, yes. Q. Your manager. And that was from South Glenn Falls Mobile, is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And he was an employee? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1317 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct A. He was my manager. He was arrested for that check, ma'am, yes. Q. You told Probation you were arrested for the check? A. What happened, I got a call from the Police Department -Q. Were you arrested for the check, Mr. Hussain? MR. RASKIN: Your Honor, it was an open-ended question. THE COURT: Excuse me. The question is, now, were you arrested for the check. Which is a closed-ended question. It can be answered yes or no. A. Yes. Q. And you had already sold South Glenn Falls Mobile by that time, hadn't you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So he couldn't be an employee if you had already sold the company, could he? A. That check was issued at Getty station on South Falls Street, not South Falls Mobile, ma'am. MR. RASKIN: Your Honor, I object to the whole line on relevance grounds. THE COURT: It's overruled. Q. You had a liquor license prior to being arrested in Albany, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And on April 23rd, you submitted to Albany, a renewal SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1318 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct application, did you not? A. On what gas station. I had couple of them, so I don't know which gas station that -MS. BRODY: I'm going to give this to him, just to refresh him. And I'll give it to the Court. I'll apologize, I thought we had another copy. Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to what application that was for? A. Yes, ma'am. THE COURT: Thank you. BY MS. BRODY: Q. And what gas station -- what location was that for? A. That was the Citgo gas station on Central Avenue, ma'am. Q. And you saw that it was April 25th, 2002? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you were arrested January 2002? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So this was a few months after you were arrested, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. And you signed this, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And although you didn't swear, you represented that the statements were true and accurate? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And there is actually a question that, has there been any SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1319 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct changes since your original application, correct? A. I believe that gas station, I bought it in 2002, somewhere in middle of 2000 -- somewhere of 2002. Q. The application asks if there are any changes in facts that have occurred since the signing of the application for your currently-held license. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. It asks that? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that's the first question it asks? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And it refers you to various questions on what would be a change. A change of address would be a change, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. If you changed phone numbers, correct? A. Yes. Q. If you changed banks, those are changes that they want to know about in a liquor license. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And a liquor license, it's important that the state regulate the liquor licenses, wouldn't you agree with that? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And it specifically asks for you to set forth details of arrests, summons, and/or other convictions which have occurred SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1320 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct since the signing of the application for the currently-held license. Now, you were arrested between the time you got your original license and filing this renewal, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. But you didn't tell the Liquor Commission that you had been arrested, did you? A. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. Take a moment. It's question 1A. MS. BRODY: Eleven. Q. It's 1A; it's right here. A. Yes, ma'am. MR. RASKIN: Is there a question? THE COURT: I haven't heard one. I'm sitting here in the silence, waiting to hear something. Q. Is it fair to say you lied on this application? A. I didn't write anything, ma'am. Q. Yes. But when it says if you have been arrested, there is a space for you to fill in, yes, I have been arrested. Would you agree with that? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So in failing to inform the Liquor Commission that you had been arrested -A. Yes, ma'am. Q. -- that's essentially a false statement, isn't it? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1321 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And this was months after -- while you were out on bail? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You were never arrested or charged with any of this, were you? A. No, ma'am. Q. But this was denied, wasn't it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. The application was denied. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. It was actually denied because of a bad check? A. It was not denied -- ma'am, it was actually transfer of my license to a new premises. I had issued a license on 222 South Pearl Street, so I wanted to transfer that license to the new gas station that I bought. Q. So when the commissioner, or whoever, the filing clerk, wrote "disapproved" that would have been their mistake? A. Their judgement, ma'am. They were judging on the application. Q. I'm sorry. A. I mean they would pass -- they would pass the application. Q. Well, they didn't pass the application. MR. RASKIN: Objection. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1322 Hussain - direct THE COURT: Overruled. Q. They didn't -- they didn't approve you because you gave them a bad check, is that correct? A. No. No, ma'am. Q. Showing you, again, the application. Does this refresh your recollection as to why it was disapproved? A. It says, "Disapproved, bad check, application pending." Q. Thank you. But it does say "disapproved bad check." Correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Now, when you were released on bail, a condition of your bail was also to turn in any passport you had; is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Did you have any passport at that time? A. No, ma'am. Q. When was the next time you recall receiving a passport? THE COURT: Receiving what? Q. Receiving a -- receiving a passport. THE COURT: Thank you. A. 2007. Q. 2007? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And what kind of passport was that? A. Pakistan passport. Q. You got a Pakistan passport? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 09f0cro6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1323 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Now, as part of your bail conditions, your travel was restricted to the Northern District of New York, was it not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. But you moved to Tennessee, didn't you? A. Under the -- the Probation's conditions; yes, they approved it. Q. Well, the Court had to approve it. A. I don't know how it worked, ma'am. Q. You don't know how it worked? A. No, ma'am. Q. The lawyer did it all? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Were you involved in any investigations in Tennessee? A. No, ma'am. Q. Were you involved in any investigations outside of the State of New York? A. No, ma'am. Q. How long did you live in Tennessee? A. About a year, year and a half, ma'am. Q. When did you come back to New York? A. I believe end of 2006. Q. You were not sentenced on those crimes until October 27th, 2006; correct? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1324 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct Q. And it's fair to say that you were cooperating with the government for 4 years and 10 months; is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. How quickly, after you were arrested, did you begin cooperating? A. I don't recall. The same month. Q. Same month? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And your attorney worked out an extraordinary plea deal for you, didn't he? MR. RASKIN: Objection to the characterization. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. You had committed, let's say, more than 50 frauds, correct? A. Sorry, ma'am? Q. You had committed more than 50 frauds, possibly 80. We're not -- a number of frauds? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. A lot of frauds? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. A great many frauds? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You pled to one count? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Would you characterize that as an extraordinary plea? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1325 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct Q. And the plea agreement and your cooperation agreement were signed the same day, were they not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And, in fact, you entered your plea on the same day, didn't you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And the one count that you had to plead guilty to was the attempt -- not even the actual -- the attempted, at the one false DMV license, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that was the one that was part of the sting operation? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you pled guilty on the same day -- which I think was April 27th, am I right? April 16th, 2003; correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So, from the point in time you began cooperating -A. Yes, ma'am. Q. -- until April, 2003, you were cooperating without a cooperation agreement, is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And the process was that you went up and met with a U.S. Attorney, an Assistant U.S. Attorney, correct, in Albany? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you met with federal agents, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1326 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct Q. And in the case in Albany, you met with an Agent Cole, did you not? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And Agent Cole became your handler? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you met with them with the aid of an attorney a number of times, didn't you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Because it was important for them to hear your whole story, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. The full extent of your criminal conduct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. To make a determination about whether or not they wanted to use you as an informant, is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that went on for a number of years? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And despite all of your criminal conduct, you pled to the one count, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you were actually sentenced to time served, weren't you, Mr. Hussain? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You didn't get probation? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1327 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct A. I -- I thought I had five year probation, so. Q. No, you didn't get a probation. A. I had five year probation. Q. You have five years probation? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. Showing you the sentencing transcript, page 7, 3502-6, does this refresh your recollection as to what you were sentenced to in Albany, Mr. Hussain? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you were sentenced to time served, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. How much time did you actually serve, Mr. Hussain? A. The day when I was arrested in 2002. Q. So you served a couple of hours? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And the judge also found that you had no money to pay a fine. Do you recall that? A. It was 100-dollar fine, ma'am. Q. No, it was 100-dollar special assessment. Does that sound right? A. Legal terms. I don't know how much it means, ma'am. Q. Do you recall any discussion about your ability to pay a fine? A. I might have, I don't recall, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1328 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct Q. I'm showing you page 7, and I believe -- I'll direct your attention to line 23. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And the Court found that based on your financial resources, projected earnings, and other income, that you had no ability to pay a fine. Correct? A. Yes. That's what it says; yes, ma'am. Q. Despite the fact you had just sold the house for a considerable profit, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you had enough money to buy a motel shortly thereafter? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And about a week after your sentence, didn't you buy a Cadillac Escalade? A. I might have; yes, ma'am. Q. Now the first role you played as a cooperator in Albany, that was a pretty easy role, right? A. I believe I had 21 arrests in Albany. I don't know which arrest you are talking about, ma'am. Q. We are going to start with the first one. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. The first one was after meeting with Agent Cole. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. He enlisted your help -A. Uh-huh. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1329 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct Q. -- in arresting the people at DMV who had helped you. A. I think the first arrest was 13 people. THE COURT: I can't understand you, sir. THE WITNESS: The first arrest was 13 people. THE COURT: Thirteen people. Were they the people at DMV? THE WITNESS: DMV, drugs. They were all kind of people. THE COURT: Do you want to talk about the DMV people first. MS. BRODY: Sure. THE COURT: Can you define your universe, please, Ms. Brody. MS. BRODY: Absolutely. THE COURT: Thank you. That would be helpful. Q. Beginning with your cooperation. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. As an informant. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. On the DMV sting operation. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Let's step back a step, shall we? You ended up getting caught because a confidential informant set you up. A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1330 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct Q. So they had information you were involved in the criminal activity -A. Yes, ma'am. Q. -- correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you had been doing this for a period of time? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Somebody found out about it, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You don't know who? A. No, ma'am. Q. So the government had a confidential informant wear a body wire, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you became aware of that because, after you were arrested, you learned the whole -- your whole episode had been taped, right? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. All right. There came a point in time where Agent Cole gave you a body wire? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And one of your investigative -- one of your roles as confidential informant was to pretend that you were still in the illegal DMV license business, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1331 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct Q. Okay. So you wired up and you went to your friends at the DMV? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you set your friends up? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And these were the people who had come into your store? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. That you had known for quite some time? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you helped the FBI and the government arrest your friend? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And then another role that you had played, as you had mentioned, is your drug investigation? MR. RASKIN: Your Honor, objection. THE COURT: I'm sorry, Mr. Raskin. MR. RASKIN: Objection, relevance. THE COURT: Overruled. BY MS. BRODY: Q. Another one of the roles you played was as a drug dealer? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And the way it would work, in Albany, is you would meet with Agent Cole before a meeting with a target or subject, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1332 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct Q. Did he define it as a target or subject; how is it defined? A. Subject. Q. Subject, okay. And he would meet with you, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. For 20 minutes, a half hour? A. Sometime more, sometime less. So depends. Q. What was the most you would meet with before meeting with the subject. A. An hour, two hours sometimes. Q. And during that meeting, he would tell you what he wanted you to do; correct? A. Yes. Q. And he would tell you what he wanted you to say; correct? A. Yes. Q. And it was important that you follow his instructions? A. Yes. Q. And it was important that you remembered, that you were able to remember what the instructions were -A. Yes, ma'am. Q. -- correct? And you would then go and meet with the subject; correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And after the meeting, you would report back to Agent Cole? A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1333 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct Q. And there were other agents there, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So sometimes Agent Cole was there and sometimes he was not? A. 90 -- 99 percent, he was there. Q. And during that 99 percent time that Agent Cole was there after a meeting that you had recorded with a subject -A. Uh-huh. Q. -- how much time would you spend with Agent Cole being debriefed? A. Half hour, 40 minutes, one hour. It would depend. Q. Would you listen to the tape together? A. No. Q. Would Agent -- was Agent Cole simultaneously listening while you were being wire taped? A. He -- I had two recorders at that time; one was just recording, and one was listening device that Agent Cole would listen into. Q. And that was to protect you, for your safety, correct? A. I don't know how it worked. Yes, would be. Q. But he was simultaneously -- your understanding was he was simultaneously listening to you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And he didn't have the ability to turn on the recorder on your body, did he? A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1334 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct Q. You were the only one who could turn it on? A. The way how it works, was that he would turn on and off himself, so I would not turn on and off in Albany at all. I would not touch the recorder at all. Q. So, in Albany, he was the one who turned it on and off? A. Yes. He would, yes. Q. And he would go and meet with your different subjects? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And one of the investigations you were involved in, was a drug deal of sorts, correct? A. Yes. Q. Now, you had never been a drug dealer, correct? A. No, ma'am. Q. And you had to be instructed on how to act like a drug dealer, correct? A. That's not correct, ma'am. I was a financier in that drug bust. Q. You were the financier in the drug bust? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So all you had to talk about was the money? A. Just -- what happened, was that the subject was talking something else and said -- the middle of the conversation, he said, well, what are you doing here, just make some money by selling drugs. And I said yes. So that's how. And the FBI was listening to that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1335 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct And then he was -- he was buying drugs from Afghanistan. He -he was -- I mean through the mail, UPS, or postal mail. He was getting drugs out of there. So I didn't even knew that the guy was a drug dealer. Q. So they didn't have to train you at all at that time? A. No, ma'am. Q. For your role as a drug dealer? A. No, ma'am. Q. What other investigations were you involved in in Albany? A. Human trafficking, driver licenses. There was about 21 of them. So it was -- each -- money laundering. So there were so many of them. Q. Let's talk about the one with human trafficking. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Was it the same type of human trafficking -- was the investigation into the same type of human trafficking that you were involved in when you fled Afghanistan on a fake passport? A. Pakistan, ma'am. Q. I'm sorry, forgive me. Forgive me. Pakistan. A. No, these were the Chinese, ma'am. Q. Was it the same kind of thing, they were smuggling illegals into the country? A. No. They had all of the illegals, and they were making driver licenses under false passport through DMV. Q. That was a little bit different than your DMV scheme? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1336 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So you were involved in that as an investigation as well? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that -- you had already knew how the DMV worked, correct. A. Sorry ma'am? Q. Well, you knew how the DMV worked. A. No, I did not help them. I got the names, addresses. I came from Albany to Jackson Heights to office, so I did the investigation, but I did not have any contact with them, personally, in Albany. Q. Now, during your cooperation up in Albany -A. Yes, ma'am. Q. -- one of the roles you played was as a wealthy businessman, is that true? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And when -- you were, at that time, struggling financially, weren't you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You testified to that in Albany, that you were struggling financially? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. In fact, you were actually in Chapter 13, right? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. Now, as part of a wealthy businessman, one of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1337 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct roles you had to play in Albany was that of a radical Muslim businessman; wasn't it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And Albany was -- withdrawn. When did you first learn about Jaish-e-Mohammed? A. Jaish-e-Mohammed? Q. Uh-huh. A. When I was in Pakistan. Q. When you were in Pakistan? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. You were not affiliated with them? A. No, ma'am. Q. You were not a member of that? A. No, ma'am. Jaish-e-Mohammed got his name back in 1999. And the head of Jaish-e-Mohammed was in prison at that time, the head of Jaish-e-Mohammed. Q. Okay. When you were up in Albany, was it Agent Cole who suggested that you be affiliated with -- and we're going to call it "JEM" -- that you be affiliated with JEM? A. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. But somebody decided that you were going to be a radical Muslim affiliated with JEM, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And did -- do you recall telling Agent Cole all about JEM? A. I might have, I -- I -- I might have done that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1338 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct Q. You don't remember? A. I don't recall, ma'am. Q. Well, do you recall Agent Fuller suggesting to you, or any other government agent, that you be a member of JEM? A. Actually, it was Agent Cole, not Agent Fuller, at that time. Q. You're absolutely right. That's not so much later. Do you recall Agent Cole suggested that you be a member of any radical group? A. He might have done that. Q. And would it have been him that -- withdrawn. How much money did you receive from your cooperation in Albany? A. I worked for four and a half years. And the only money that I received was the expenditure money. And I did not receive any kind of reward money, or monthly payments from them at all in four and a half years. It was all expenditures, either the office expenditures or office that we were working at. And around, I believe, like $60,000 as expenditure. Q. $60,000 as expenditures? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Do you recall testifying in Albany? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Do you recall a reference to you being paid $32,000 in Albany? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1339 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. Do you also recall that they paid for your cell phone? A. Yes. Hundred dollars or $150. Q. Well, they paid for your cell phone for almost two years, didn't they? A. Yes. Q. And your whole cell phone bill, for two years, was $100? A. No. They was paying like $100 a month, ma'am. Q. Okay. They were paying hundred dollars a month for your cell phone bill? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you were not using that cell phone only for business, were you? A. No, ma'am. Q. That was your personal phone? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So if they paid the phone bill, it didn't have to come out of your pocket, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So if they paid your phone bill for a couple of years, I believe it was two and a half, that was I think close to $3,000, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And they paid 6 months of the rent at 142 Central Avenue? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1340 09f0cro6 Hussain - direct A. That was the -- the place where I -- the operation was carried out. They wanted a place. And I rented -- we rented a place. And they paid the rent for that place, ma'am. Q. I understand that. But weren't you going to open a retail store? A. That -- that store was never retail store, ma'am. Q. And you testified in Albany -- do you remember telling them you intended to open a retail store? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. But it wasn't a retail store? A. No, ma'am. Q. It actually became kind of a warehouse, wasn't it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you were doing some kind of trading in and out of there? A. Wholesale business. Q. Wholesale business. THE COURT: Ms. Brody, we are quitting right now. Sorry. We have to quit. MS. BRODY: Oh, okay. THE COURT: You guys, 9:30. Don't discuss the case, keep an open mind. (Jury excused) THE COURT: Okay. Just a minute, please. Okay, first of all I -- you can leave, sir. You can SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 09f0cro6 leave. Hussain - direct 1341 (Witness excused) I apologize to everyone. We had a juror who was absolutely desperate to get out, okay, had to -- I had to stop. I apologize. I know it was a bad moment. I wouldn't have done it myself, but we had a desperate juror. MS. BRODY: No bad moments, your Honor. They are all good. THE COURT: Just because Mr. O'Neal doesn't want me to forget to dot the Is and cross the Ts, I'm denying, on the record, the motion that was made by the defendants after I turned over the redacted portions of the PSR -- to turn over more, okay. I just wanted to put that on the record. Okay. Did I -- did I do my job? I'm okay. Okay. Ms. Brody. MS. BRODY: I don't have a seat. That's why I'm standing. THE COURT: You don't have a seat, that's why you are standing. Of course. Well, nobody can have a seat, because I have round two of the 60 defendant case. I've got 15 more coming in this afternoon, 15 more coming in tomorrow. So I need to ask you to vacate the tables. I'll see you all at 9:30 in the morning. (Adjourned until Thursday, September 16, 2010, at 9:30 a.m.) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 INDEX OF EXAMINATION Examination of: Direct By Mr. Raskin . . . . . . . . . . Cross By Ms. Brody . . . . . . . . . . . Cross By Ms. Brody . . . . . . . . . . . GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS Exhibit No. 101-T through 129-T, 105A-T, 108A-T . 115A-T, 121A-T, 121B-T, 124A-T, 125A-T 125B-T and 470-T . . . . . . . . . . DEFENDANT EXHIBITS Exhibit No. 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Page . . .1201 . . .1211 . . .1247 Received . . .1211 . .1211 . . .1211 Received . . .1252 1342 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300