1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS EASTERN DIVISION MICHELLE CASTELLANOS, as Independent Executor of the Estate of ESAU CASTELLANOS, Plaintiff, vs. CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER SHAWN LAWRYN, CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER JUAN MARTINEZ, and CITY OF CHICAGO, a municipal corporation, Defendants. ) ) ) ) ) ) ) No. 14 C 1841 ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) The videotaped deposition of SHAWN LAWRYN, called by the Plaintiff for examination, taken pursuant to notice and pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure for the United States District Courts pertaining to the taking of depositions, taken before Kathy A. O'Donnell, Certified Shorthand Reporter in the State of Illinois, at 120 North LaSalle Street, 35th Floor, Chicago, Illinois, commencing at 10:23 a.m. on February 5, 2015. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 APPEARANCES: O'CONNOR & NAKOS, LTD. 120 North LaSalle Street 35th Floor Chicago, Illinois 60602 Phone: (312) 546-8100 BY: MR. DANIEL V. O'CONNOR Appeared on behalf of the Plaintiff; CITY OF CHICAGO DEPARTMENT OF LAW 30 North LaSalle Street Suite 900 Chicago, Illinois 60602 Phone: (312) 744-5170 BY: MR. MATTHEW HURD Appeared on behalf of Defendants Officer Shawn Lawryn and Officer Juan Martinez; ALSO PRESENT: 13 14 Officer Juan Martinez Brian Bruce, Videographer * * * * * * 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Reported By: Kathy A. O'Donnell, CSR No. 084-004466 BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 3 1 I N D E X 2 WITNESS 3 SHAWN LAWRYN 4 PAGE Examination by Mr. O'Connor ......... 5 5 6 7 8 E X H I B I T S LAWRYN DEPOSITION EXHIBIT PAGE 9 No. 1. Case supplementary report 86 10 No. 2. Photograph 106 11 No. 3. Photographs 217 12 No. 4. Yahoo Maps screen shot 231 13 No. 5. Answers to interrogatories 228 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 4 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We are 2 going on the video record at 10:23 a.m. Today's 3 date is February 10, 2015. 4 the law office of O'Connor & Nakos, located at 5 120 North LaSalle Street on the 35th floor in 6 Chicago, Illinois, for the purpose of taking the 7 videotaped deposition of Officer Shawn Lawryn. 8 The matter is pending United States District 9 Court for the Northern District of Illinois. We are present at It 10 bears Case No. 14 CV 1848 [sic] and is entitled 11 Michelle Castellanos, et cetera, et al., vs. The 12 Chicago Police -- I'm sorry -- Chicago Police 13 Officer Shawn Lawryn, et al. 14 The party on whose behalf this deposition is 15 being taken is the plaintiff, and the party at 16 whose instance this deposition is being recorded 17 on an audiovisual recording device is the 18 plaintiff. 19 My name is Brian P. Bruce, Sr. I am a 20 certified legal video specialist from LitiCorp, 21 located at 1919 North Milwaukee Avenue in 22 Chicago, Illinois. 23 officer of the proceeding is Kathy O'Donnell 24 from Buchanan Reporting, located at 450 East The court reporter and the BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 5 1 Waterside in Chicago, Illinois. 2 I will now ask counsel present to introduce 3 themselves, starting with the noticing counsel 4 first. 5 6 MR. O'CONNOR: O'Connor & Nakos representing the plaintiff. 7 8 I'm Daniel V. O'Connor of MR. HURD: Matt Hurd, H-u-r-d, representing the defendants. 9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 10 MR. O'CONNOR: Thank you, coun- -- We also have Officer Martinez 11 present for the deposition today as well as the 12 deponent Officer Lawryn. 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you, counsel. 14 will now ask that our officer of the court 15 administrator the oath to our witness. 16 17 I (Witness sworn.) WHEREUPON: 18 SHAWN LAWRYN, 19 called as a witness herein, having been first duly 20 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 21 22 23 24 EXAMINATION BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Sir, please state your full name and spell your last name for the record. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 6 1 A. 2 Shawn Lawryn, last name is L-a-w-r-y-n. MR. O'CONNOR: Let the record reflect that 3 this is the deposition of Shawn Lawryn, taken 4 pursuant to notice and at this time by agreement 5 of the parties. 6 pursuant to the Federal Rules of Evidence. 7 8 9 This deposition is taken BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Mr. Lawryn, you met me the other day when I took your partner's deposition; is that correct, sir? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. All right. I'm going to give you some 12 guidelines as to the deposition so you know what to 13 expect. 14 testimony the other day. 15 your memory, if you do not hear or understand the 16 question, just say so. 17 repeated as necessary so that you can understand the 18 question and give your best response. 19 with you, sir? I know you sat through your partner's entire However, just to refresh It will be rephrased or Is that okay 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. If you need to take a break for any reason, 22 I'll ask that the question on the record be asked 23 [sic] and then you'll be allowed to take a break with 24 counsel or, if you need a restroom break, that will BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 7 1 be fine too. We may anticipate each other's spoken 2 word and want to jump in. 3 interrupt your answers. 4 best not to interrupt the question, we'll have a good 5 question-and-answer format. 6 than uh-huhs or uh-uhs. 7 clarification, I'm not trying to give you a hard time 8 but I want to know what your intention was, okay, 9 sir? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. All right. I will do my best not to If you would please do your Yes or nos are better If I ask you for a I'm going to ask you something 12 along the same lines that I asked your partner the 13 other day. 14 you have not been charged by the U.S. Attorney's 15 Office or the State's Attorney in this matter. 16 understand that you have the ability to take the 17 Fifth Amendment and, if and when this transcript goes 18 to the FBI or the U.S. Attorney or the State's 19 Attorney, I just want to be on good paper with them 20 and you that you've been told that you have the right 21 to take that Fifth Amendment right. 22 choosing, as I understand it today, to waive that 23 right and answer questions today; is that correct? 24 A. As I understand it as of today, anyway, You And you're Yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 8 1 Q. All right. You did talk to the FBI at some 2 point in time in response to an inquiry to ask you 3 questions, and I understood from your partner, 4 anyway, the other day that you told them to go talk 5 to your lawyer; is that right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did you give any actual statement to the FBI 8 about this matter? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Why not? 11 A. I wanted to consult my attorney first. 12 Q. And did you have an opportunity to consult 13 with your attorney after that request was made? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And did you ever then cooperate with the FBI 16 and give them any kind of a statement in this matter? 17 A. I never made a statement. 18 Q. What involvement, if any, did you have with 19 the FBI after the initial request for an interview 20 was denied by you? 21 A. None. 22 Q. All right. I'm going to ask you some 23 background information. 24 school, sir? How far did you go in BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 9 1 A. Maybe a year in college. 2 Q. Where at? 3 A. Harper. 4 Q. Did you say Harper College? 5 A. Harper Community College. 6 Q. What was your field of study there at the 7 time? 8 A. Just taking classes, general ed classes. 9 Q. Where did you go to high school? 10 A. Minnesota, Gilmore Creek Christian Academy. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What year? 14 A. '91. 15 Q. How old are you today? 16 A. 41. 17 Q. And you reside in the city of Chicago? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Are you currently employed by the Chicago 20 Did you graduate from there? Police Department? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Have you taken any other courses outside of 23 24 the one year or so at Harper? A. No. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 10 1 2 Q. Have you been certified or licensed in any particular field? 3 A. No. 4 Q. When did you become a police officer? 5 A. I started the academy 30 July of 2007. 6 Q. How old were you when you started? 7 A. 34. 8 Q. So you got out of high school when you were 9 10 18. When you went to Harper College, did you go directly there or did you have some time off? 11 A. I had some time off. 12 Q. What did you do after high school? 13 A. I was in the military. 14 Q. What branch? 15 A. I was actually Army and Navy. 16 Q. When did you serve? 17 A. I was active duty from 1992 to '96 in the 18 Navy. 19 Q. You were active duty from '92 to '96 in what 20 branch? 21 A. Navy. 22 Q. Where were you -- where were you stationed? 23 A. Philadelphia; Jacksonville, Florida. 24 Q. Anywhere else? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 11 1 A. No. 2 Q. What were your duties in the Navy while in 3 4 Philadelphia and Florida? A. When I was in Philadelphia, I was helping to 5 rehab a ship, just an airman. When I was in 6 Jacksonville, Florida, I was a plane captain. 7 helped -- I 8 Q. What does that mean? 9 A. I'm sorry? 10 Q. What does that mean? 11 A. I just helped launch and recover aircraft on 12 13 an aircraft carrier, the helicopters. Q. Okay. So were you a guy up on the deck with 14 some kind of signals or flashlights or something to 15 steer somebody in, or did you lock a vehicle down 16 when it landed? 17 18 A. What did you do? I helped bring the helicopters down to the aircraft carrier. 19 Q. And how did you help? 20 A. Just with the signals. 21 Q. So were you using some kind of a signal 22 device such as a light? 23 A. Black lights, yes. 24 Q. Okay. Did you have any other duties while BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 12 1 in the Navy aside from what you told me? 2 A. That's pretty much it. 3 Q. Okay. 4 5 Army. You said that you were also in the Did that come after '96? A. That's -- it came in -- I was in the Army 6 National Guard, so that came before the Navy and then 7 after the Navy. 8 9 10 Q. Okay. So what did the Army National Guard include before you went into the Navy? A. The they made me -- I went through basic 11 training and AIT, which is MOS training school. I 12 was a 45 November, which is a tank turret mechanic 13 for the M683s. 14 Q. How long did that training take? 15 A. All of it together was approximately six 16 months. 17 Q. 18 Okay. And in that six months did you receive any kind of certification at all? 19 A. I believe so, yes. 20 Q. Were you assigned anywhere, or did you do 21 22 23 24 that from your home and report to a regular place? A. Well, initially I was in Fort Knox, Kentucky for the basic training and the job training. Q. Okay. And after you finished your six BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 13 1 months or so learning how to be a mechanic, did you 2 do anything else between that and joining the Navy? 3 A. No. I just went back home, was going once a 4 month and two weeks a year. 5 the Navy and went active duty. 6 7 Q. bit. And then I enlisted in How long were you -- let's back up a little You graduated from high school? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. In what year? 10 A. '91. 11 Q. So you graduated in '91. You have a six 12 month or so time period with the National Guard, and 13 then in '92 you go into the Navy? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did you hold any other jobs in that interim 16 period? 17 A. I can't recall right now. 18 Q. After the National Guard when you said you 19 went a couple weeks, a year couple weekends here and 20 there, how long did that last? 21 22 23 24 A. I don't know, like six -- six months to a year before I went active duty. Q. Did you do any jobs other than that periodic visits to that National Guard? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 14 1 2 A. I think I worked at a grocery store while I was doing my reserve training. 3 Q. All right. And then when you went into the 4 Navy. You said after you finished your duty with the 5 Navy, you went back to the National Guard; is that 6 correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. All right. 9 10 And was that immediate, or was there some time period after '96 where you were not in the National Guard? 11 A. There was a bit of a delay. 12 Q. When did you go back to the National Guard? 13 A. I think it was '99. 14 Q. All right. 15 Did you hold any other jobs between '96 and '99? 16 A. Sure. 17 Q. What did you do? 18 A. I did -- between '96 and '99 I worked 19 security, as a security supervisor, for Calmark 20 Incorporated (phonetic). 21 Q. What kind of security detail did you have? 22 A. Just I was filling in when people would call 23 off. I did some -- help trained some of the new 24 people coming in. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 15 1 2 3 4 5 6 Q. Are you watching video cameras? Are you walking through a mall? A. Watch video cameras, we would scan people coming in and out of the warehouse. Q. All right. And aside from being a security officer, what did you do between '96 and '99? 7 A. Also did construction. 8 Q. What did you do construction? 9 A. I was a union laborer. 10 Q. Which union? 11 A. Local 4. 12 Q. And any other jobs between '96 and '99? 13 A. Well, it was Calmark from basically '96 to 14 '99, and then I went into the construction field in 15 '99 right up until -- right up until 2007, in which I 16 had three months on with the post office. 17 got the letter to go into the police academy. 18 Q. 19 the academy? 20 A. 21 22 All right. And then I And when did you get called into I believe I got the letter probably in May of 2007. Q. All right. So when you went back to the 23 National Guard for some period, what did you do and 24 what did that entail? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 16 1 A. I was assigned to an infantry unit. 2 Q. Is this a weekend -- 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. -- assignment? 5 A. Yes, once a month and two weeks a year. 6 Q. Okay. 7 And you were still in the States all the time? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Did you serve anywhere active duty outside 10 11 the borders of the United States? A. When I was in the Navy, I did a 12 Mediterranean cruise, been to Italy, Spain. 13 was just pulling into port for leave. 14 15 Q. Okay. But it And during your military service, were you ever engaged in any actual conflict? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Did you receive any weapons training while 18 in the military? 19 A. Just through basic training for the Army. 20 Q. And what type of weapon were you trained on 21 in basic training? 22 A. M16 rifle. 23 Q. That's the only -- the only weapons training 24 that you had prior to becoming a police officer; is BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 17 1 that correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. So when you go into the academy for the 4 police officers, did you undergo any kind of weapons 5 training there? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What did that entail? 8 A. Just training me on the use of a handgun. 9 Q. And what was your understanding as to what 10 your training consisted of? 11 A. Basic marksmanship skills. 12 Q. So basically how to shoot it? 13 A. Exactly. 14 Take it apart, put it back together, clean it. 15 Q. All right. 16 A. Clearing malfunctions. 17 Q. Did you receive any training in the academy 18 for the police department as to when you are allowed 19 to draw your weapon as a police officer? 20 A. Sure. 21 Q. What was that training? 22 A. Just on the range when the targets would 23 face you, obviously when you draw your weapons at 24 that point in time. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 18 1 Q. All right. And when you were on the range, 2 you were under the impression that you were there 3 effectively to learn how to shoot. 4 intention, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. All right. That was the What I'd like to ask you about 7 is what type of training did you receive that told 8 you, for instance, under these circumstances you're 9 allowed to draw your weapon versus other 10 circumstances where you should not draw your weapon? 11 A. I don't recall. 12 Q. All right. 13 police officer -- Well, strike that. 14 15 At some point in time while a You got out of the academy at some point and became a police officer, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. As a police officer, have you received any 18 training from the City of Chicago Police Department 19 as to when you are allowed to draw your weapon and 20 when you should not draw your weapon? 21 A. Well, I draw my weapon when I -- whenever I 22 need to draw my weapon, if I'm in fear for my life or 23 if I'm -- I think something's about to happen. 24 as far as any specific training, I don't recall. But BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 19 1 Q. Are there any handbooks or protocol written 2 anywhere that discuss as a police officer when it is 3 okay to draw a weapon and when it is not okay to draw 4 a weapon? 5 A. 6 Force Module. 7 Q. And what is the Use of Force Module? 8 A. It's just guidelines for when an officer 9 10 I think that might fall under the Use of would use a use of force. Q. Do you have any information or knowledge as 11 to what that manual says regarding the circumstances 12 under which an officer is allowed to draw their 13 weapon? 14 A. I mean, I have a basic understanding of it, 15 but I didn't write, you know, the department policy 16 on use of force. 17 Q. 18 Strike that. 19 Okay. Do you have an understanding -- Did you receive any training on when it is 20 okay to discharge your weapon or fire a bullet at 21 someone or something? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What was that training that you received, 24 and where did you receive it? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 20 1 A. It was in the academy. 2 Q. All right. 3 academy regarding when you can shoot your weapon? 4 5 A. When I have reason to believe that I'm in fear for my life or the life of someone else. 6 7 And what were you taught in the Q. Have you ever been disciplined by the Chicago Police Department in any fashion? 8 A. I believe I had one SPAR for traffic. 9 Q. Can you say that again? 10 A. I believe I had one SPAR for traffic. 11 Q. When you say "SPAR," what does that mean? 12 A. It's like a written reprimand. 13 Q. And what were the circumstances under which 14 you received one SPAR? 15 16 I'm sorry. A. I backed up and cracked a mirror on a domestic call. 17 Q. Are you aware of any instances where your 18 partner, Mr. Martinez, has been disciplined by the 19 Chicago Police Department? 20 A. Not to my knowledge. 21 Q. Have you ever been charged with any kind of 22 an excessive use-of-force-type allegation -- Strike 23 that. 24 Have you ever had an allegation brought BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 21 1 against you by an individual that you were engaged in 2 a circumstance with that said that you had acted in a 3 manner that you used excessive force against them? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Are you aware of any instance where your 6 partner, Mr. Martinez, has had any individual allege 7 excessive force used by Mr. Martinez? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Have you ever been suspended for any reason 10 from the police department? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Are you aware of any suspensions against 13 your partner, Mr. Martinez? 14 A. No. 15 Q. How long have you been partner with -- 16 partners with Mr. Martinez? 17 A. Over four years. 18 Q. All right. On the night of the occurrence 19 that led to the shooting and killing of 20 Mr. Castellanos, what shift were you working? 21 A. I would have been on afternoons that day. 22 Q. And what would that consist of? 23 A. 6:00 to 3:00 in the morning. 24 Q. And if I remember correctly, this occurrence BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 22 1 took place shortly before 3:00 a.m.; is that correct? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And how far away from your 17th district 4 station that you would be assigned to were you when 5 you first became engaged in any fashion with 6 Mr. Castellanos? 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 A. I would say approximately half mile to a mile. Q. Where were you headed at the time that you first encountered Mr. Castellanos? A. We were headed to pick up items on an -- inventory items on an arrest that we were working on. Q. Your answer was a little bit mixed up, so 14 I'm just going to ask you for a clarification. 15 were headed to pick up items or headed to inventory 16 items that you already had? 17 18 A. You Please explain. We were headed to pick up some more items to inventory for an arrest that we were working on. 19 Q. What items were those? 20 A. I believe they were magazines and 21 ammunition. 22 Q. And when you say that it was an arrest you 23 were working on, had you already performed an arrest 24 of somebody or were you intending to arrest someone? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 23 1 A. We were in the process of it. We 2 transported an individual into the station, and a 3 couple of guys that were on the team were assisting 4 in that arrest. 5 of the items to inventory. 6 Q. And we went back out to get the rest So some individual was being transported to 7 the station by other officers, or had you already 8 transported him? 9 A. We already transported him in. 10 Q. So effectively you and your partner had put 11 someone under arrest, brought them to the station, 12 and now you're going back to the place where you 13 found them, where you believe you're going to get 14 more items? 15 A. Right. Well, the -- the victims had called 16 and said that there were some additional items that 17 they found that they want us to inventory. 18 Q. What was the nature of the arrest? 19 A. It was a weapons charge. 20 Q. Was it just someone who had a weapon that 21 they should not have been able to have? 22 A. Exactly. 23 Q. And the items that you were going to pick up 24 would have been other weapon-related items, such as BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 24 1 ammunition or magazines; is that right? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. All right. 4 And where was that -- where was that information and those items located? 5 A. We never got to them, sir. 6 Q. No, I understand, but -- 7 A. It was at the -- 8 Q. -- you do know where you were going to go. 9 A. It was the same location as the arrest took 10 11 place. Q. Okay. So you had been to that place, you 12 had performed an arrest, and now you're going to go 13 back to the same place, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Where was it? 16 A. It was somewhere off of Kimball, I believe. 17 Q. Kimball and what? 18 A. Like in between Wilson and Montrose. 19 don't recall the exact address. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. 4650 North Pulaski. 22 Q. All right. 23 24 I And where's 17 located? And you said that you had just come from there; is that right? A. We just came from the station? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 25 1 2 Q. You're telling me. You're not asking me, right? 3 A. I don't understand your question. 4 Q. Sure. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. I'm assuming when you arrest him, you bring 7 You had arrested a guy. him to the police station. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Throw him in a jail cell, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And that's located at 4650 North Pulaski? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. You were leaving 4650 North Pulaski, and you 14 were heading back to a location off of Kimball 15 somewhere between with Wilson and Montrose to pick up 16 some additional ammunition or magazines of 17 ammunition, right? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. Okay. So what was the route that you took 20 from 4650 North Pulaski, which is the 17th district 21 police station, to where you first became engaged 22 with Mr. Castellanos? 23 24 A. We were just heading on -- we were heading eastbound on Wilson. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 26 1 2 Q. And when you go from 4650 North Pulaski, what is the intersection there with Pulaski at 4650? 3 A. Wilson comes in right there. 4 Q. So as soon as you get east of Pulaski, are 5 you on Wilson traveling eastbound? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. All right. 8 night? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. 11 12 And that's what you did that So is the police station north or south of Wilson? A. It comes in right there. I mean, it's -- I 13 guess the station itself would be just a little north 14 of the parking lot, comes in with Wilson and Pulaski, 15 and our parking lot's right there. 16 17 Q. So is it a T-intersection into the police station? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. So Pulaski goes straight across Wilson at 20 that point, and Wilson dead-ends into Pulaski? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. All right. So you would have come out of 23 the police station parking lot, gone right onto 24 Wilson, and started heading eastbound? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 27 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. All right. 3 4 5 At what point in time did you see Mr. Castellanos or his vehicle? A. I don't understand. Are you asking me exactly where it was at? 6 Q. Yeah. 7 A. I believe we were near Lawndale and Wilson 8 going eastbound. 9 Q. And how far east of Pulaski is Lawndale? 10 A. Approximately 5 to 10 blocks. 11 Q. Okay. And your intention was to go -- 12 MR. O'CONNOR: 13 MR. HURD: 14 15 You need to take that, Matt? No. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Your intention was to go to Kimball, 16 essentially, had you not come across Mr. Castellanos; 17 is that right? 18 19 A. Yes. That would have been the most direct route. 20 Q. And between Pulaski and Kimball, how far is 21 the distance? 22 A. Between Pulaski and Kimball? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. Well, Pulaski is 4000, and I believe Kimball BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 28 1 is 3200. 2 guesstimating. 3 Something like eight blocks I'm Q. That's kind of why I'm kind of getting to 4 Lawndale. 5 Kimball? Is Lawndale situated between Pulaski and 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. How far east or west is Lawndale? 8 got Kimball at 3200. 9 Where does Lawndale come in? You've You've got Pulaski at 4000. 10 A. 3500. It's almost in the middle I, guess. 11 Q. Okay. And you were located at Lawndale when 12 you first became aware of Mr. Castellanos; is that 13 correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And how far from you was Mr. Castellanos's 16 vehicle when you first became aware of him? 17 A. I believe approximately two blocks. 18 Q. So was Mr. Castellanos's vehicle east or 19 west of you two blocks? 20 A. East. 21 Q. And was there any cars or other traffic 22 between you and Mr. Castellanos's vehicle when you 23 first became aware of him? 24 A. No. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 29 1 2 3 Q. All right. And what did you first notice about him? A. Well, he went through a stop sign. I 4 believe he was on Monticello. 5 stop sign and turned right and went through another 6 stop sign but didn't -- he was going at a high rate 7 of speed as he was making the turn, and that's what 8 drew my attention to the vehicle. 9 10 Q. Okay. He went through the So when Mr. Castellanos was on Monticello, was he traveling north or southbound? 11 A. He was going northbound on Monticello. 12 Q. And he turned then to go eastbound? 13 A. He turned right onto Wilson to go eastbound. 14 Q. And you said he blew that stop sign at that 15 intersection? 16 A. There's two stop signs there. So he blew 17 the one northbound on Monticello and then another 18 stop sign just to the right as he made that 19 right-hand turn onto Wilson. 20 Q. How far, once he gets onto Wilson headed 21 eastbound, does he have to travel before he 22 encounters that first stop sign on Wilson? 23 24 A. It's like one block. There's like -- every block there's a stop sign. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 30 1 Q. Okay. I just want to make sure that it 2 doesn't sound like they're ten steps apart. 3 talking city blocks here, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. So we're So you see Mr. Castellanos's car. 6 He's northbound on Monticello. He's at the 7 intersection with Wilson. 8 for him, but he does not stop at the stop sign? There's a stop sign there 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. He makes a right-hand turn? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. So he rolls through the stop sign? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. There's another stop sign at the next block 15 which he should stop at, but he does not stop at that 16 intersection; is that correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. All right. So now how far behind him are 19 you at this point? 20 from him when you first saw him. 21 to keep pace with him? 22 A. You said you were two blocks away Are you continuing Well, we're following the vehicle. To 23 answer your question, how far behind him were we? 24 I'd say approximately two to four blocks. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 31 1 Q. Okay. Let me back you up a little bit here, 2 all right? 3 which your best estimate is about 3500 west. 4 agree on that so far? 5 6 7 8 A. You're traveling on Wilson at Lawndale, Do we west. Actually, no, because Central Park is 3600 So yeah, I guess that's about right. Q. Okay. And you said that Mr. Castellanos was two blocks east of you at Monticello, right? 9 A. I said approximately. 10 Q. Well, that means two blocks, right? 11 A. Well, I can't give you an exact. 12 13 14 approximately two to four blocks. Q. I said I don't recall. Actually, you said two blocks. That's why I'm bringing you back, okay? 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. So you told us that he's two blocks east of 17 you, and now he travels one more block. 18 still driving eastbound while he's missed the stop 19 sign at Monticello and now is heading eastbound on 20 Wilson? 21 22 Are you Are you still driving eastbound? MR. HURD: Objection, compound question. BY THE WITNESS: 23 A. I don't understand your question, sir? 24 Q. Sure. You're going eastbound on Wilson. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 32 1 You see Mr. Castellanos make a right turn onto 2 Wilson. 3 traveling eastbound as you follow him? He's going eastbound. 4 A. Of course. 5 Q. All right. Do you continue So now he's two blocks from you 6 when he turns onto Wilson in front of you. 7 goes that additional block east and blows the stop 8 sign, have you traveled about a block also? 9 10 11 MR. HURD: As he Objection, compound question. BY THE WITNESS: A. Lawndale -- we were at Lawndale and Wilson, 12 I believe, at the stop sign there when I first 13 observed Mr. Castellanos, and I believe he was coming 14 northbound on Monticello. 15 between the two is one block. 16 17 Q. Okay. And I think the difference So now you're only a block behind him when he turns onto Wilson? 18 A. I believe that's correct, yes. 19 Q. All right. So he travels one block east of 20 Monticello, and he does not stop at the stop sign, 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. That means if you're traveling eastbound, 24 you're probably at Monticello when you see him blow BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 33 1 the stop sign that's one block east of Monticello; is 2 that correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. So now you have a vehicle that is one 5 block ahead of you. You told us he's traveling at a 6 high rate of speed and he's blown two stop signs. 7 that correct so far? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You do not have your blue lights on? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Why not? 12 A. Well, we were following the vehicle. Is We 13 didn't know what the situation was at the time. 14 is happening very fast. 15 in that area I was trying to get over the air to find 16 out if anything had happened in the location. 17 Q. Okay. This So I attempted -- somewhere I mean, you've got a guy that's a 18 block ahead of you. You've seen him create -- or 19 commit two traffic violations, potentially three if 20 he's speeding, and you have not taken any action to 21 let him know you're there, stop him, or notify 22 anybody else in the area with your blue lights that 23 there's something going on to be aware of; is that 24 correct? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 34 1 A. Well, I was trying to take action, sir. I 2 was trying to get over the air. 3 monitoring the air just to see if something had just 4 occurred. 5 was not driving the vehicle. 6 Q. At first I was Then I attempted to get over the air. Okay. I Well, you're not driving the vehicle, 7 so that basically means all you have to do is either 8 listen to the radio or talk on the radio or turn on 9 the blue lights or even turn on your inside light 10 yourself and flash at the guy, right? 11 A. Again, sir, I wasn't driving the vehicle. 12 My job when I'm working with my partner and he's 13 driving is I usually handle the air traffic. 14 Q. Okay. Is there any -- is there any reason 15 why your partner should not have turned on the blue 16 lights to the vehicle when you see somebody blow 17 through two stop signs and traveling at a speed that 18 appears to be higher than the speed limit? 19 20 MR. HURD: Objection, foundation. BY THE WITNESS: 21 A. Sir, I didn't know what was going on. We 22 were just monitoring the air. I was monitoring the 23 air. 24 department policy, we're not allowed in an unmarked This is happening very fast. You know, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 35 1 vehicle to chase or pursue. 2 sir. 3 4 Q. All right. ones here. It's department policy, Let me ask you a couple easy When you want to pull somebody over -- 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. -- what do you do? 7 A. Well, I activate my lights. 8 Q. Okay. Because most people will see the 9 lights on behind them, and the idea is that they've 10 been trained in driver's ed when they get a license, 11 when there's a blue light on behind you, you pull 12 over to the right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Because either, A, you're getting pulled 15 over or, B, you need to get out of the way so that 16 they can pursue whatever issue they're pursuing; is 17 that right? 18 A. I agree, yes. 19 Q. Okay. So all that has to be done in order 20 to let Mr. Castellanos know that there's a police 21 officer one block behind him is your partner activate 22 the blue lights, and he should be able to be made 23 aware of that because those lights will light up in 24 the darkness at a little bit before 3:00 a.m. and be BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 36 1 visible, right? 2 A. I wasn't driving, sir. 3 Q. I get that. I'm just -- this will go a lot 4 quicker if you just answer the question that I 5 actually ask you. 6 you 20 more, so it'll be -- you pick. 7 how it goes, but I'll try and give you a direct 8 question? 9 Otherwise I'm going to have to ask It's up to you All that has to happen in order to give 10 Mr. Castellanos an opportunity to see there's a 11 police officer behind him is your partner turn on the 12 blue lights, they get illuminated, it's nighttime, 13 and he would have a chance to see this police officer 14 behind me, which should tell him pull over and stop, 15 right? 16 17 18 19 20 MR. HURD: Objection, foundation. BY THE WITNESS: A. I don't know if Mr. Castellanos would have pulled over, sir. Q. Okay. If you want to give somebody a 21 reasonable opportunity to pull over in darkness and 22 you're a police officer and you're following them, 23 what do you? 24 A. Well, in a normal situation I would activate BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 37 1 my lights, and they would pull to the right. But 2 this situation, sir, was happening very fast. He 3 was -- I don't know. 4 know that Mr. Castellanos would have stopped if my 5 partner would have acted -- activated the emergency 6 lights. 7 Q. 8 I wasn't driving, and I don't And the reason you don't know that is you guys didn't turn on the lights, right? 9 A. We did turn on the lights, sir. 10 Q. You turned on the lights after his car 11 crashed several blocks east of there; isn't that 12 right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. So let's assume for the moment that 15 when you first see him blow two stop signs and he's 16 traveling at what you told me is a high rate of 17 speed, that your partner activates the blue lights. 18 Would there be an opportunity for Mr. Castellanos to 19 see the blue lights and react in some fashion, 20 whether he stops or doesn't stop? 21 A. Possibly. 22 Q. All right. Well, that's the designed intent 23 of the lights, right, to give you information, which 24 will either have somebody pull over to allow you to BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 38 1 investigate -- that's one reason, right? 2 3 A. In a normal situation, I would agree with that, yes. 4 Q. But you didn't pull Mr. Castellanos over to 5 investigate because you didn't put the blue lights 6 on; is that correct? 7 8 A. The blue lights were never activated until Mr. Castellanos's crash, so ... 9 Q. I'm well aware of that. Let's talk about on 10 Wilson Avenue when you're a block after you saw him 11 initially. 12 traveling at a high rate of speed. 13 violations of the Rules of the Road; we agree on 14 that? He's gone through two stop signs. 15 A. Absolutely. 16 Q. Okay. 17 He's Potentially three So you know something is wrong, right? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. Okay. So because you know something is 20 wrong with this individual and it's 3:00 o'clock in 21 the morning and it's dark out, as a police officer 22 you have to take some action, right? 23 A. Yes, absolutely. 24 Q. One of the easiest things to you to take BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 39 1 action is simply turn on the blue lights, right? 2 A. Possibly. 3 Q. Well, is there anything else that you would 4 do that's real easy for you? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Mr. Castellanos probably doesn't have a 7 police radio in his car; would you agree about that? 8 9 I'm just trying to get over the air. A. No. But, you know, a police action for me would have been to get over the air and, you know, to 10 let the dispatcher know we've got a car going at a 11 high rate of speed, and maybe she can relate some 12 kind of information to me that something had just 13 occurred, a crime had just occurred. 14 Q. 15 dispatcher? 16 A. 17 over the air. 18 and I couldn't get over. 19 20 Q. 23 24 I tried, sir. I tried a couple times to get And there was another officer talking, So the tape should show your voice cutting into those conversations; is that right? 21 22 And did you actually get to talk to a A. I don't know. I don't have any knowledge of that. Q. Have you ever heard a police tape in your career with the police department? Ever heard an BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 40 1 audio recording? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. All right. So when police try and talk to 4 each other on the air and there are people cutting 5 in, you've heard that before, where people cut into 6 conversations on the radio, right? 7 A. If somebody has the air and they're holding 8 their mic, you're not going to be able to get in. 9 You can try, but it doesn't always work. 10 Q. Did you try? 11 A. I stated earlier, sir, I tried twice. 12 Q. What I mean that is, did you actually speak 13 into the microphone? 14 15 A. I was -- yes, I was trying to speak into the microphone, but somebody -- the air was tied up. 16 Q. Okay. So if somebody's talking on the radio 17 and there was any break in their conversation, if you 18 did talk into the radio your voice should be 19 recorded, right? 20 21 22 A. If I broke into the -- yes. Q. Okay. It should be, yes. Are you aware of any instance where 23 you got ahold of any operator when calling in on the 24 radio that night before the actual collision that BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 41 1 2 3 4 stopped Mr. Castellanos's car? A. I'm not aware of it. I know that I did try, but I don't think I got through. Q. All right. Let's jump ahead for just ten 5 seconds. From the time that you saw Mr. Castellanos 6 to the point where his vehicle came to rest, how far 7 did he travel? 8 A. Could you state it one more time, please? 9 Q. Sure. 10 You see Castellanos at Monticello and Wilson initially, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. He travels eastbound. Eventually his car 13 comes to rest how far away from that intersection of 14 Monticello and Wilson? 15 A. I believe he crashed at 3300 West Wilson, 16 and I'm not exactly sure the hundred that Monticello 17 is on. 18 that -- something like that. I believe it's 3700, 3800, something to 19 Q. So that's four or five blocks or more? 20 A. You're saying from the time that I observed 21 him on Monticello and when he crashed? 22 Q. Yeah. 23 A. Sir, I don't know the streets. 24 How far did he travel? I mean, Spaulding and Wilson is where he -- the vehicle BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 42 1 crashed. We first observed him at Monticello and 2 Wilson. How far that distance is, I don't know off 3 the top of my head. 4 ten blocks or better. 5 Q. Okay. It could be, I don't know, maybe All right. So the first block that 6 you follow him on Wilson, we already know that you 7 and your partner, neither one of you, put on the blue 8 lights, correct? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Do you have access to the blue lights as the 11 passenger, or is that your partner's job to 12 illuminate the blue lights? 13 A. Normally, if my partner is driving, he 14 controls the vehicle. 15 emergency lights. 16 the air. 17 18 Q. My job is, you know, to monitor The emergency lights are, in fact, the blue lights, so we're talking about the same thing, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. All right. 21 lights? 22 A. 23 24 He would activate the Where is the switch for the blue On that particular vehicle it's -- it was kind of like in the center console area. Q. So was it in the armrest, or is it above BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 43 1 2 your head? A. Where is it? There's like a box here. So if you're 3 driving, it would be kind of like in between the 4 passenger's seat and the driver's seat. 5 closer to the -- for the driver to, you know, 6 obviously activate the lights. 7 Q. Okay. It would be But you're sitting just on the other 8 side of that console, so you would be able to reach 9 it with your left hand and still stay in your chair 10 and activate the lights if you chose to? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. So there are other reasons to 13 illuminate emergency lights besides just pulling 14 somebody over. 15 traveling at a high rate of the speed, blowing two 16 stop signs, your lights can perform another activity 17 by letting other people around know that they should 18 be careful, right? If you see someone in the dark now 19 A. I guess that's possible. 20 Q. Okay. So what speed did you estimate that 21 Mr. Castellanos was traveling when he first came 22 through that first stop sign from Monticello onto 23 Wilson as he made that turn? 24 A. I don't know. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 44 1 2 Q. makes the first turn onto Wilson? 3 4 Is he less than the speed limit when he A. I believe that he's going -- he's exceeding the speed limit. 5 Q. How much, I just don't know. And then the second stop sign, which would 6 be the one on Wilson one block east of Monticello, 7 what's your estimate of his rate of speed? 8 9 A. Well, as he -- after, I would say he's going close to 80 miles an hour or better. 10 Q. So in the course of one city block on Wilson 11 he has gone from making a right-hand turn to going 12 80 miles an hour through a stop sign; is that right? 13 A. Well, I guess probably I don't know if 14 that's actually possible or not to hit 80 miles an 15 hour after one block. 16 him, we were at a stop. 17 continuing on Wilson, I would say he was probably 18 going close to, you know, 80 to a hundred miles an 19 hour. 20 Q. I think when we first observed So I would say -- as he was Let's talk about one thing at a time, 21 because we've got ten block's worth of stop signs to 22 talk about -- 23 A. 24 But I can't tell you exactly how fast he was going after one block. I don't know. I believe that BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 45 1 as he continued to travel eastbound on Wilson, he was 2 going well above 80 miles an hour. 3 closer to a hundred, but somewhere between. 4 if I'm driving a vehicle on the city streets, I can 5 safely handle a vehicle and be in control of the 6 vehicle around 65 miles an hour, and he was going 7 much faster than that. 8 9 Q. Okay. I would say I know Let's back up to the Monticello turn. From that turn to the first block on eastbound Wilson 10 where he blew the second stop sign, do you have an 11 estimate as to what speed he was traveling? 12 A. Well, 50 to 80. 13 Q. Okay. And when you first saw 14 Mr. Castellanos turn onto Wilson, were you already 15 traveling eastbound or were you stopped at the stop 16 sign where you were at Lawndale? 17 A. I believe we were approaching the stop sign 18 at Wilson and Lawndale when we first observed 19 Mr. Castellanos go through the stop sign and turn 20 onto Wilson at Monticello and Wilson. 21 Q. Did you and your partner stop at that stop 22 sign, or did you go through it yourself once you saw 23 Mr. Castellanos blow the first stop sign onto Wilson? 24 A. I don't recall. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 46 1 Q. All right. So now he's traveling somewhere 2 between 50 and 80 miles an hour after one city block, 3 and you're continuing to follow him; is that right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. All right. How many times did you speak on 6 the radio in that first city block that you followed 7 him, if at all? 8 A. I don't recall. 9 Q. Do you actually recall speaking on the radio 10 specifically as you sit here today? 11 A. I recall trying to -- to get over the radio. 12 Q. So my question -- 13 A. I can tell you who was -- I can tell you -- 14 when I attempted to get over the air, I can tell you 15 I was near Roosevelt High School, which is, like, 16 at -- I think it's St. Louis and Wilson. 17 tell you that I recall Officer Rosika (phonetic) on 18 the air, and that's why I was not able to get 19 through. I can also 20 Q. Why was he on the air? 21 A. It's a female, sir. 22 Q. Why was she on the air? 23 A. I don't recall, but I remember I was getting 24 And she was -- upset because I could not, you know, get in over the BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 47 1 air because I wanted to find out if, you know, 2 something had just happened in that area. 3 problem area known for gang and narcotics in the 4 17th district. 5 6 Q. Officer Rosika, was she talking about something that was official business on the radio? 7 8 It's a A. Whenever -- yeah. Whenever anybody's on the air, it's related to the job, sir. 9 Q. All right. So is there a signal or any 10 language that you can say over the radio that 11 basically tells all other participants on the radio 12 to hold their radio traffic? 13 A. Yeah, if I call a 10-1. 14 Q. Okay. 15 And a 10-1 is two numbers, 10 and 1, what does that stand for? 16 A. It's an emergency. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. Sir, she -- I couldn't break in to call a And did you do that? 19 10-1. There needs to be a break in the -- in the 20 transmission before I can get in to make that call. 21 Q. 22 city block? 23 A. 24 So she was continuously talking for a full Yes, sir. fast, sir. Well, this is happening very It's in seconds. This isn't, you know, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 48 1 where I had a chance to hit the pause button and get 2 in over the air to let them know what's happening. 3 Q. All right. After the first turn onto 4 Wilson, he travels one block east, goes through 5 another stop sign at 50 to 80 miles an hour, does he 6 continue going eastbound? 7 8 MR. HURD: Objection, compound question. BY THE WITNESS: 9 A. He's traveling eastbound, yes. 10 Q. And is he traveling eastbound, again, at 11 50 to 80 miles an hours and then increasing at that 12 point? 13 14 15 16 A. Yes. He's picking up speed as we're following the vehicle. Q. Okay. And is your vehicle picking up speed as you follow him? 17 A. Well, I wasn't driving. 18 Q. I didn't ask you that. 19 the car. 20 up speed. MR. HURD: 22 answer the question? 24 You're sitting in I just asked you if the vehicle is picking 21 23 I mean, I -- Excuse me. MR. O'CONNOR: Could you let him If he would answer the question, Matt -- BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 49 1 MR. HURD: 2 MR. O'CONNOR: 3 MR. HURD: 4 answer the question. 5 6 7 8 9 No. -- I'd be happy to. Before you cut him off, let him Go ahead. BY THE WITNESS: A. Mr. O'Connor, could you please ask me the question again? Q. Was your vehicle increasing speed as you followed him after he had blown the second stop sign? 10 A. I believe so, yes. 11 Q. What rate of speed was the vehicle in which 12 you were a passenger traveling at that point in time 13 when he blew the second stop sign, which would be the 14 one east of Monticello on Wilson headed eastbound? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Do you have any estimate? 17 A. Maybe 30 to 60. 18 Q. All right. And as Mr. Castellanos gets one 19 block east of Monticello, the first stop sign that he 20 blows on Wilson is what intersection? 21 A. The first -- after he turns onto Wilson from 22 Monticello, you're asking me what the first 23 intersection -- 24 Q. What's the first stop sign east of BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 50 1 Monticello and Wilson, which would be the second stop 2 sign you've told us that he's gone through? 3 4 5 6 A. I believe it's Central Park, but I'm not a hundred percent sure. Q. And east of Central Park, there's another stop sign about a block east of there; is that right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What intersection would that be? 9 A. I think that's Drake. 10 Q. And at Drake, had Mr. Castellanos's vehicle 11 continued to increase in speed from Central Park to 12 Drake? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What rate of speed do you estimate he was 15 traveling when he approached Drake? 16 A. I mean, we're talking approximately two 17 blocks now? 18 Q. We're talking two blocks from the point in 19 time where he came onto Wilson at Monticello. 20 went through Central Park. 21 Drake. He's now approaching How fast is he going? 22 A. I'd say between 80 and a hundred. 23 Q. Okay. 24 He And is your vehicle that you were a passenger in continuing to increase speed to keep up BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 51 1 with him? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And what is your rate of speed as you 4 approach Drake? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. What's your best estimate? 7 A. 50 to 65. 8 Q. The regular speed limit on that street is 9 what? 10 A. 35 miles per hour. 11 Q. So by definition, if you're exceeding the 12 speed limit following another vehicle and you're now 13 going 50 to 65 miles an hour, you're effectively in 14 pursuit of this vehicle; is that correct? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Is there any other reason that you're 17 allowed to exceed the speed limit on a regular city 18 street besides being in pursuant of a vehicle or in 19 responding to a call? 20 A. We never activated our emergency lights. 21 Q. I'm going to get to that in a minute. I 22 just asked you, is there any reason you're allowed to 23 exceed the speed limit on a city of Chicago street 24 aside from being in pursuit of a vehicle or BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 52 1 responding to a call? 2 3 4 A. No, we typically follow the Rules of the Road. Q. So at this point in time as you're traveling 5 eastbound on Wilson Avenue, technically your partner 6 and you are violating the speed limit on that street; 7 is that correct? 8 A. Well ... 9 Q. I'm sorry? 10 A. We're following a vehicle because he just 11 went through multiple stop signs. 12 figure out what's going on here. 13 follow the Rules of the Road, we would've never been 14 able to see where he's going. 15 was going on. 16 that point in time. 17 18 Q. We were trying to If we're going to We didn't know what Okay. I didn't have enough information at Let's go back and try and answer the question if we can. 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. The speed limit is, you said, about 35 miles 21 an hour; is that correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. All right. 24 You're traveling 50 to 65 miles an hour now two blocks into the time period you're BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 53 1 following Mr. Castellanos, correct? 2 A. Mm-hmm -- yes. 3 Q. Which is exceeding the speed limit? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You have no blue lights on? 6 A. No. 7 Q. So you're violating the rules of the road 8 technically because you're over the speed limit, 9 right? 10 A. I guess technically, yes. 11 Q. You're not giving any warning to anybody who 12 may be uninvolved whatsoever that your vehicle is 13 going faster than it should because you have no blue 14 lights on, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You are giving no indication to 17 Mr. Castellanos that there's a police officer 18 following him because you have no blue lights on; is 19 that correct? 20 A. We did not have the blue lights on, no. 21 Q. All right. If you had put on the blue 22 lights, are you allowed to exceed the speed limit 23 once the blue lights are activated? 24 MR. HURD: Objection, compound question. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 Go 54 1 ahead. 2 BY THE WITNESS: 3 4 5 A. Yes. If we activate the lights, we are -- we are allowed to exceed the speed limit. Q. Are you instructed as a police officer that 6 when your vehicle is going to exceed the speed limit 7 that you should activate the blue lights? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Isn't that basic safety for everybody in the 10 neighborhood there that, if you're going to exceed 11 the speed limit and you have blue lights equipped on 12 your vehicle, that you should turn them on to give 13 anybody the benefit of the doubt that, watch out, 14 because I might run you over now because I'm speeding 15 through intersections, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. All right. 18 19 20 21 You didn't do that, and your partner did not do that; is that correct? A. We did not activate the emergency lights until the vehicle crashed. Q. Okay. So now -- 22 MR. HURD: We're going to take a break. 23 MR. O'CONNOR: 24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. All right. This will now BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 55 1 conclude Videotape No. 1. 2 record at 11:17 a.m. 3 We're going off the (A short break was had.) 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 5 video record at 11:30 a.m. 6 No. 2 of the deposition of Officer Shawn Lawryn 7 taken on February 10th, 2015. 8 9 We are now back on the This is Videotape Counsel? BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Okay. We've now taken a break at your 10 counsel's request. 11 ask you what you spoke about, but did you have a 12 chance to confer with counsel? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. All right. Did you have -- I'm not going to When we left off, 15 Mr. Castellanos has just approached Drake Avenue, 16 where he is then going through a third stop sign; is 17 that correct, sir? 18 A. To the best that I can recall. 19 Q. All right. And you said that 20 Mr. Castellanos at that location is going somewhere 21 between your best estimate of 80 to a hundred miles 22 an hour; is that right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. All right. And following along now, he goes BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 56 1 one more block east of Drake. 2 sign there? 3 A. I believe so. 4 Q. And did Mr. Castellanos likewise go through 5 Is there another stop that one, two, three -- fourth stop sign? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. All right. And the vehicle in which you're 8 a passenger, is it increasing the speed as you 9 continue to pursue Mr. Castellanos? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What rate of speed -- if you were 50 to 12 60 miles an hour at the third stop sign that was gone 13 through, by the fourth stop sign, at what rate of 14 speed is the vehicle in which you're traveling, 15 traveling at? 16 A. I don't recall. 17 Q. What's your best estimate, sir, if you're 18 increasing from 50 to 65, one more block, how fast 19 are you going? 20 A. Maybe 60 to 70. 21 Q. All right. 22 That's your best estimate, 60 to 70 miles per hour at that point? 23 A. Yeah. It's a guess. 24 Q. All right. So if -- at that point now BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 57 1 Mr. Castellanos has gone through the fourth stop 2 sign. 3 there is something wrong going on there, right? Clearly you are well aware of the fact that 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. Again, no blue lights are initiated 6 by the vehicle in which you're a passenger; is that 7 true? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. As passenger and those blue lights are just 10 to your left on that console between you and your 11 partner, if you want to turn on the blue lights, you 12 can reach them? 13 A. Sure. 14 Q. Why didn't you turn on the rights? 15 A. Well, sir, we always -- we don't always use 16 the lights. 17 Q. 18 Okay. Did your partner and yourself discuss whether you should turn on the lights? 19 A. No. 20 Q. All right. Castellanos goes through the 21 stop sign one block east of Drake, and that is at 22 what intersection, to the best of your knowledge, 23 Bernard, St. Louis? 24 A. I think it -- I think it -- probably BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 58 1 St. Louis, I think. 2 3 Q. And the next block east of that would be what? 4 A. I think Bernard. 5 Q. And at Bernard there's another stop sign at 6 Wilson? 7 A. 8 9 I don't think Bernard has a stop sign. I think it kind of Ts into Wilson. Q. So what happens at Bernard? What did you 10 observe about Mr. Castellanos as he approaches 11 Bernard on Wilson headed eastbound at 80 to a hundred 12 miles an hour? 13 A. He just continues eastbound. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. Yes, but there's no stop sign at Bernard. 16 Q. Okay. Does he go past Bernard? So he goes straight through the 17 intersection, but there's no stop sign violated at 18 that point? 19 A. 20 There's -- yeah, he's just going eastbound, continuing eastbound at a high rate of speed. 21 Q. Is he continuing to accelerate? 22 A. Well, he was pulling away from us at that 23 24 point. Q. And you're speeding up, so that means he's BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 59 1 speeding up as well, right? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Well, basic physics is if you're traveling 4 at a certain rate of speed and somebody in front of 5 you is traveling further away from you, that they 6 have to be traveling at a higher rate of speed than 7 even you are, right? 8 9 A. sense. Well, I guess in theory that would make But, you know, we have to slow down at the 10 intersections as police officers because we gotta 11 make sure that nobody else is coming through. 12 don't know exactly what Mr. Castellanos's rate of 13 speed was at that point. 14 a high rate of speed. 15 Q. So I I just know he was going at And you're going at somewhere between 60 and 16 70, per your last estimate, at that intersection 17 at -- at St. Louis, right? 18 19 20 A. know. I wasn't driving the vehicle, sir. I don't I'm giving you an estimate. Q. And I understand that you're giving me an 21 estimate, but you've been a passenger in police cars 22 for a long time, right? 23 A. Sure. 24 Q. You've driven police cars for a long time, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 60 1 right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You're used to reporting when you're on the 4 radio that you're in a chase involving yourself and 5 somebody that you might be chasing. 6 report that you're traveling at a ballpark speed, and 7 you have to estimate that, right? And you have to 8 A. I wasn't able to get over the air. 9 Q. I totally understand. You've told me that 10 four or five times now. 11 experience as a police officer, when you do go on the 12 air when you're chasing somebody, you have to report 13 that you're pursuing somebody and here's the rate of 14 speed you're pursuing them at; is that correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. All right. But I'm asking you in your So under normal police 17 procedure, if you're going 60 to 70 miles per hour 18 following somebody who is pulling away from you at a 19 higher rate of speed, you would normally get on the 20 radio and report that you're chasing somebody on 21 eastbound Wilson at this rate of speed; is that 22 right? 23 24 A. We weren't chasing him, sir. following the vehicle. We were We're not allowed to chase in BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 61 1 an unmarked tactical vehicle. 2 policy. 3 Q. Okay. It's department So if you were to say that you were 4 chasing a guy in an unmarked vehicle without your 5 blue lights on, that would violate police department 6 policy; is that right? 7 A. Not necessarily. 8 Q. Would it violate the policy or not? 9 10 thought you just told me it's against policy. A. Well, if we're in an unmarked vehicle as 11 opposed to a marked vehicle, it makes all the 12 difference in the world. 13 14 Q. I thought that's what I just asked you, so let me repeat the question. 15 16 I You're in an unmarked vehicle; we agree about that, right? 17 A. Mm-hmm. 18 Q. Is that a yes? 19 A. Yes, I'm in an unmarked vehicle. 20 Q. All right. So you're following somebody at 21 60 to 70 miles an hour in that unmarked vehicle, 22 correct? 23 A. That's a guess, sir. 24 Q. That's your best estimate as you sit here BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 62 1 today? 2 A. It's a guess- -- it's an estimation. 3 Q. All right. And that's the best estimate you 4 can come up with as you're sitting here today, at 5 least as of that point -- 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. -- in the chase? 8 9 All right. So, now, if you were to admit today that you are chasing -- using the word 10 "chasing" -- an individual in your unmarked car, that 11 we know is unmarked, and you don't have your blue 12 lights on, that would be a violation of police policy 13 as you understand it, correct? 14 A. No, it would not. 15 Q. Okay. Why would it not be? Because I 16 thought you had told me a little bit earlier it would 17 be. 18 Please explain. A. Well, I mean, sometimes we are responding to 19 a burglary in progress, a suspicious call, and we 20 would not activate our emergency lights, so that 21 would be a scenario or situation where we would drive 22 fast to the call. 23 our emergency lights or our sirens, we're giving the 24 bad guy a heads-up. Because obviously if we activate BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 63 1 Q. Okay. We're talking about a little bit 2 different scenario here where you're actually 3 following somebody, and we were talking about that. 4 And I believe you told me that you're not allowed to 5 chase someone, which means you're actually following 6 somebody who's moving further ahead of you. 7 what you define as "chase," right? 8 9 MR. HURD: That's We use the term "pursuit." BY THE WITNESS: 10 A. Yeah, I'm getting -- 11 Q. The only reason I'm using this word is that 12 he brought it up, so that's why I'm -- we're going to 13 talk about it for a few minutes, and maybe we can 14 move on. 15 You -- if you're following somebody who's 16 moving in the same direction as you and you're 17 traveling at a high rate of speed, you told me that 18 you're not allowed to chase somebody. 19 to me what that means. 20 21 22 23 24 A. Please explain We're not allowed to pursue in an unmarked vehicle. Q. And what is the definition of "pursuit" in an unmarked vehicle? A. A high speed, a high speed following BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 64 1 2 3 4 5 6 somebody. Q. Okay. So high speed means in excess of the normal speed limit? A. Whatever is -- yes, it could be in excess of the speed limit. Q. Okay. Well, I mean, if you're on the 7 highway, the speed limit might be 65. 8 65, and that's okay. 9 you are pursuing at that point in excess of the speed 10 13 MR. HURD: Q. 20 Objection, assumes facts not in evidence, and objection to the -MR. O'CONNOR: I'll withdraw the question. Let me move on. 18 19 -- true? MR. HURD: 16 17 Objection. BY MR. O'CONNOR: 14 15 But if you're higher than 65, limit -- 11 12 You can travel MR. HURD: Okay. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. If you're following somebody in excess of 21 the speed limit, that is a pursuit that is not 22 allowed by policy, is that true, unless you put on 23 your lights? 24 A. I don't understand your question. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 65 1 Q. Sure. If you're going to follow somebody at 2 a high rate of speed beyond the speed limit and 3 they're increasing their speed ahead of you and 4 you're increasing you speed to keep with them or to 5 maintain visual on them, is that against the policy 6 without the lights on, without the emergency lights 7 activated? 8 9 A. We were driving at -- my partner was handling the vehicle at a safe speed, so we -- 10 Q. I didn't ask you that. 11 A. -- we were following department policy, yes. 12 Q. Does department policy prevent you from 13 traveling at a speed limit that is higher than the -- 14 Strike that. 15 Does department policy prevent you from 16 following a vehicle at a speed that is higher than 17 the normal speed limit that's posted without engaging 18 your blue lights? 19 A. I'm not sure on that. 20 Q. Is there a policy that you're aware of that 21 says if you're going to follow somebody at a speed 22 that is higher than the posted speed limit, that you 23 should engage your blue lights? 24 A. I'm not sure. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 66 1 2 Q. Who told you in any of your training when you put the blue lights on? 3 A. In an unmarked -- in an unmarked or marked? 4 Q. Unmarked. 5 A. It's -- I read it as department policy. 6 You're not supposed to engage in a pursuit. 7 Q. I'm trying to -- 8 A. And if I turn the lights on, then that would 9 10 be considered a pursuit. Q. So you're telling me that the unmarked cars 11 are not allowed to follow somebody with the blue 12 lights at a high rate of speed? 13 14 15 A. Well, that would sound like a pursuit to me, so I would say we're not allowed to do that. Q. Okay. So are you telling me that you are 16 allowed to follow somebody at a high rate of speed 17 without the blue lights on, or are you just not 18 allowed to follow anybody at a high rate of speed? 19 Which is it? 20 A. 21 It depends on the call, sir. With this scenario, we're not allowed to do it. 22 Q. Not allowed to do what, sir? 23 A. Turn the lights on. 24 Q. Why not? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 67 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. So is it safer, in your opinion, to follow 3 somebody at 60 to 70 miles an hour down a side street 4 with the blue lights on at 3:00 in the morning or 5 with the blue lights off? 6 7 8 9 A. My opinion has no basis for the policy, sir. I didn't write it. Q. I didn't ask you that. I just asked, is it your opinion that it's safer to follow somebody at 10 60 to 70 miles an hour during a nighttime occurrence 11 with the blue lights on or the blue lights off? 12 A. It depends on the scenario. 13 Q. This one, this scenario that we're talking 14 about today. 15 Avenue 60 to 70 miles an hour. 16 who's a block ahead of you who is now up to 80 to a 17 hundred miles an hour, and you're continuing to 18 pursue eastbound. 19 lights on or off? 20 21 22 23 24 A. You're traveling eastbound on Wilson You've got a guy Is it safer to have the blue That is department policy, we don't turn the lights on and pursue. Q. Is it safer to have the blue lights on or off under that scenario? A. It's -- you're asking me my opinion, and -- BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 68 1 Q. That's exactly what I'm asking you. 2 A. But I'm doing my job. I'm going with the 3 department policy. 4 we're not allowed to turn the lights on and pursue a 5 vehicle. 6 Q. The department policy, sir, is Is it safer to have the blue lights on at a 7 high rate of speed at nighttime when you're following 8 somebody in excess of the speed limit or to have the 9 blue lights off under that same scenario? 10 A. If I was in a marked car, I would say yes. 11 Q. If you were in a marked car, you'd say it's 12 safer to have the blue lights on? 13 A. Well, then I can do that. 14 Q. So you don't -- you don't have any opinion 15 16 17 18 as to whether it's safer or not. A. You just -- My opinion doesn't matter, sir. department policy. Q. It's I don't write it. If you would please allow me to finish the 19 question, I'll allow you to finish all of your 20 answers. 21 A. Sure. 22 Q. Do you have an opinion that it is safer to 23 put the blue lights on when you're going to speed 24 through stop signs and intersections while chasing BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 69 1 2 somebody at nighttime? A. In that scenario it's department policy not 3 to turn the lights on in an unmarked vehicle. 4 There's a reason for that. 5 Q. What's that? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. Okay. I didn't write it. Did you ever ask anybody what the 8 reason is behind this policy when you're chasing 9 through neighborhoods at almost double the speed 10 limit -- and, in fact, at 70 miles an hour you are 11 double the speed limit -- that you would not have the 12 lights on? 13 A. No. There's a lot of policies, sir. I 14 don't necessarily agree with all the policies, but 15 that's not my job. 16 Q. All right. My job is to follow the policy. Is there anything that prevents 17 you from simply turning on the blue lights and find 18 out if the guy just stops because you have the blue 19 lights on? 20 A. Why would I do that, sir, if it's against 21 the department policy and we're going at a good 22 speed? 23 24 Q. Well, when you first see Mr. Castellanos, you're coming to a stop. So I'm assuming you're less BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 70 1 than the speed limit, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You're not speeding. You see him blow a stop sign? You're not going in 6 excess of the speed limit. 7 traffic violation. 8 guy may just pull over; that's possible, isn't it? 9 A. You turn on the blue light. just to tell me that. 11 quickly. Q. The Sir, it took you about four or five seconds 10 12 You see a guy do a This is happening very This is -Okay. So maybe he got half a block. Would 13 he have a chance to -- stop him when he sees your 14 blue lights on? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. Okay. It was happening very fast. So how many blocks do you follow 17 somebody at double the speed limit before you 18 determine, maybe I give them a chance to pull over by 19 putting on the blue lights and letting them know that 20 there's a police officer behind him, or you choose to 21 not do that? 22 A. 23 policy. 24 Q. Mr. O'Connor, it's against department Okay. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 71 1 A. I was -- both of us, me and my partner, were 2 complying with department policy. 3 policy, all right? 4 agree with the policy, but we were doing our job that 5 night. 6 with the lights on. 7 Q. We don't write the I might not necessarily even We're not to engage in that kind of scenario Okay. So you felt that you were acting 8 within police policy going double the speed limit on 9 eastbound Wilson following an individual who's now at 10 80 to a hundred miles an hour through stop signs 11 without giving any warning to anybody in the 12 neighborhood that you're coming at that rate of speed 13 and without giving an opportunity to the individual 14 who was driving that car ahead of you to know that 15 there's a police officer behind him by not putting on 16 your blue lights; is that correct? 17 A. Sir, we were following department policy. 18 Q. I asked you if that's a correct statement, 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. All right. 19 sir. So he travels -- "he" being 22 Mr. Castellanos -- through each and every 23 intersection all the way to the resting point where 24 his vehicle came to stop; is that right? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 72 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And your partner and yourself followed him 3 through each and every intersection at basically 4 double the speed limit going eastbound there on 5 Wilson, is that right, at 70 miles an hour? 6 A. We -- sir, that's not correct. We actually 7 lost site of the vehicle at -- as he was approaching 8 Kimball and Wilson. 9 around St. Louis and Wilson approximately where we 10 We were coming, I believe, lost sight of him. 11 Q. So is St. Louis east or west of Bernard? 12 A. It's west of Bernard. 13 Q. And, now, you told us already about your 14 seeing him go through the intersection at Bernard, so 15 we know you saw him at Bernard, right? 16 A. Well -- 17 Q. So that's east of St. Louis that you saw A. -- there's no stop signs or anything there. 18 19 him? 20 It's just Bernard dead-ends into Wilson, so it's 21 almost like a side street in a sense. 22 continued going eastbound on Wilson. 23 24 Q. So he just My point is you saw him go past Bernard on Wilson, so we know you saw him east of St. Louis one BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 73 1 block at least. 2 through -- You saw him at Bernard go straight 3 A. We were -- 4 Q. -- the T intersection -- 5 A. We were -- 6 Q. -- at Bernard, right? 7 A. We were approaching St. Louis. And as soon 8 as we crossed St. Louis, we -- I believe that's where 9 we lost sight of Mr. Castellanos. 10 11 12 Q. And Mr. Castellanos, was he already east of Bernard at that point? A. No. We lost sight of him, sir, so he would 13 have been crossing Kimball because the road kind 14 of -- the road kind of curves, so you can't see it in 15 a straight line. 16 were coming to St. Louis on Wilson, we lost sight of 17 the vehicle. 18 Q. 19 The road kind of curves. So as we He went through a stoplight. Okay. And that stoplight would have been at what intersection? 20 A. That would be Kimball and Wilson, sir. 21 Q. Okay. So now we've seen a person travel at 22 a high rate of speed, go through multiple stop signs, 23 and now go through a red light? 24 A. That's correct. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 74 1 Q. Is there anything that would prevent you 2 from attempting to effectuate an arrest for those 3 violations? 4 A. I don't understand your question. 5 Q. Sure. When you're a police officer and you 6 see somebody commit what is a potential crime, what 7 is your duty? 8 A. To investigate. 9 Q. Okay. Part of that investigation can be 10 pull the person over and say, why did you do this and 11 do you admit doing it, those kind of things, right? 12 A. Yes. We do an interview. 13 Q. And when you see somebody that's continually 14 moving, creating more violations, they're potentially 15 dangerous to people in the neighborhood, right? 16 A. But this scenario, I would say absolutely. 17 Q. Okay. 18 There could be a potential accident at every intersection, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. So as a police officer sworn to protect -- 21 serve and protect, that includes not only 22 Mr. Castellanos if he's in a medical emergency, but 23 it's guys like everybody sitting in this room if they 24 happen to be in the neighborhood, right? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 75 1 A. It doesn't matter who it is. 2 would agree. 3 Q. All right. But yes, I So your duty basically is -- 4 when you see Mr. Castellanos create these alleged 5 violations or commit these alleged violations, is to 6 pull him over and talk to him about the things that 7 he's already done and hopefully prevent him from 8 violating the next intersection, whether it's a stop 9 sign, a red light, or simply a speed violation, 10 right? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. Okay. Why didn't you stop him? 13 A. When? I tried. 14 15 16 We were following the vehicle. Q. What efforts other than following the vehicle did you use to stop Mr. Castellanos, if any? 17 A. We followed the vehicle, sir. 18 Q. I heard that part. 19 20 What efforts did you use to stop him, if any? A. I tried to get over the air to find out if, 21 you know, there had been a call shots fired or 22 something had happened in the area. 23 this happened very fast. 24 Q. Okay. This -- again, So now we're about, what, five blocks BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 76 1 into your pursuit that you make the little jog at 2 Bernard? 3 MR. HURD: 4 "pursuit." 5 pursuing. 6 Objection, compound question, There's been no testimony that he's MR. O'CONNOR: I think you asked me to use 7 the word "pursuit." If we go back on the 8 record, I'm pretty sure you asked me to use that 9 word. So that's why -- 10 MR. HURD: I asked you -- 11 MR. O'CONNOR: 12 MR. HURD: -- I'm trying to comply. -- to use the "pursuit" when 13 talking about the policy, not when talking about 14 his following. 15 16 BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Well, if you're following a guy at a high 17 rate of speed, are you following him with the 18 intention of letting him get away? 19 A. Of course not. 20 Q. Are you pursuing him to find out where he's 21 going? 22 A. We're following him. 23 Q. What's the difference between "pursuit" and 24 "follow"? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 77 1 2 3 A. We would have been activating the emergency lights and probably going a little faster. Q. So a pursuit means you turn on the lights? 4 5 6 MR. HURD: And goes a little faster. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. All right. So we're at 70 miles an hour in 7 the dark. 8 instead of calling it "following" -- let me finish 9 the question -- all you gotta do is turn on the blue 10 11 And if you want to call it a "pursuit" lights and now you're pursuing; is that right? A. We also need to let dispatch know, okay? We 12 need to let dispatch know what's going on, what do we 13 have, you know. 14 trying to get over the air to let them know, you 15 know, this is what we have. 16 through because somebody else had the air tied up. And like I stated earlier, I was I was not able to break 17 Q. I heard that for the first block after 18 Monticello. 19 we've traveled in our discussion of what was going on 20 here, what attempts did you make during any of that 21 time to get on the radio, if any? During the next five or so blocks that 22 A. I tried twice to get over the air. 23 Q. And when did that occur? 24 Where were you in relationship -- BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 78 1 A. I remember -- 2 Q. -- to the streets when you made those 3 attempts? 4 5 A. The last attempt was -- was right by Roosevelt High School. 6 Q. Which is where? 7 A. Where we lost sight of the vehicle. It 8 would be -- we were on the west end of the high 9 school, which would have been, like, the intersection 10 of St. Louis and Wilson. 11 the air there as we were continuing eastbound on 12 Wilson. 13 in that area. 14 Q. 15 So I was trying to get over I tried to get over the air a couple times And if you did and there was a break in the radio traffic, your voice should be recorded? 16 A. As I stated earlier, sir, if I came over it 17 would be recorded. 18 when I was trying to let the dispatcher know what we 19 had. 20 Q. Okay. I was never able to get through And as you're traveling now and 21 you're in a position where you say you lost sight of 22 the vehicle, does that concern you that now this car 23 that was going through all these intersections at a 24 high rate of speed is now out of your sight line? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 79 1 A. Does it concern me? 2 Q. Yeah. 3 A. Well, of course. 4 Q. Okay. If you turn on the blue lights and 5 turn it into a pursuit instead of following, even at 6 the same rate of speed you increase your likelihood 7 of being able to stop that person, right? 8 9 10 11 A. Mr. O'Connor, I just addressed that earlier. We're not allowed to activate our emergency lights in pursuit of the vehicle. Q. I'm sorry. I thought I was under the 12 impression from the discussion here a moment ago 13 that, if you do turn on your blue lights, you are 14 allowed to pursue at a high rate of speed and you 15 have your blue lights on and that's called a pursuit; 16 is that correct? 17 A. In a marked vehicle, yes. In an unmarked 18 vehicle, it's department policy we're not allowed to 19 pursue. 20 Q. So under no circumstances whatsoever are you 21 allowed to pursue anybody with the blue lights on in 22 an unmarked vehicle? 23 24 A. No. There is -- there are, you know, exigent circumstances where I would be allowed to BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 80 1 pursue. 2 Q. Tell me about that. 3 A. Well, if an officer was shot and we viewed 4 it, then yes. 5 Q. What other reasons? 6 A. I can't think of anything else off the top 7 of my head, but it would have to be something -- you 8 know, an exigent circumstance, we observed somebody 9 else shoot an individual. 10 Q. Some potential that someone could be harmed; 11 is that fair? 12 A. Sure. 13 Q. So if a vehicle is traveling eastbound on 14 Wilson Avenue close to 3:00 in the morning in the 15 dark 80 to a hundred miles an hour, is there a 16 potential that that vehicle could cause harm to 17 anybody in the area, other vehicles, and in fact the 18 driver himself? 19 A. It's possible. 20 Q. Is that a good enough reason to turn on the 21 blue lights? 22 A. I need to get over the air. 23 Q. Why? 24 A. Because it's department policy, I have to BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 81 1 let them know, hey, we've got a vehicle going at a 2 high rate of speed. 3 know, that's against department policy. 4 was in a marked vehicle, I would still have to get 5 over the air. 6 Q. But, you know, it's not -- you I mean, if I So you have to get over the air in either a 7 marked or unmarked vehicle before you can turn on 8 your blue lights to get permission? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Okay. So what is that -- I'm missing the 11 point here when you're saying you have to get on the 12 air. 13 A. What don't you understand? 14 Q. What I don't understand is, what do you need 15 over the air before you can turn on your blue lights? 16 A. It depends on the scenario, the situation. 17 Q. This situation that we're here to talk about 18 today. You've got -- 19 A. This situation -- 20 Q. -- an individual eastbound on Wilson a 21 hundred miles an hour. You're now following the guy 22 at 70 miles an hour. 23 signs. 24 is in a position where there's a potential risk of He's blowing through stop He's blown through a red light. He clearly BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 82 1 harm to him or others. 2 radio and get some approval before you can turn on 3 your blue lights? 4 A. Why do you need to get on the I gave you an estimation of 55 to 70. I 5 didn't say 70 miles an hour. 6 department policy to -- you know, we're not allowed 7 to pursue, chase, whatever you want to call it, in 8 this scenario. 9 Q. And again, this is So is there any scenario under which you 10 could have turned your blue lights on in instance 11 with Mr. Castellanos and you would have been in 12 compliance with the policy? 13 14 A. Is there any scenario where I would have been able to turn my lights on? 15 Q. Yes, sir. 16 A. Well, I guess, if Mr. Castellanos would have 17 stopped his vehicle and shot somebody and jumped back 18 in his vehicle and took off and I saw that, I guess 19 at that point in time I could activate my emergency 20 lights and chase at that point, or pursue. 21 Q. Okay. But shy of somebody getting out and 22 shooting somebody, you cannot turn on your blue 23 lights when you're following somebody who's traveling 24 at a high rate of speed, blowing through BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 83 1 intersections, stop signs and red lights; is that 2 what you're telling me? 3 A. It's department policy, sir, yes. 4 Q. All right. What opportunity did you give 5 Mr. Castellanos to know that you were behind him, if 6 any? 7 8 A. We didn't have an opportunity to let him know. 9 Q. You're following him for ten blocks at 10 least, right? 11 A. Mm-hmm. 12 Q. Yes? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. So during that ten blocks at any point in 15 time if you or your partner would have turned on the 16 blue lights, would that -- policy aside, would that 17 give him an opportunity to know there's a police 18 officer behind him? 19 MR. HURD: 20 21 22 23 24 Objection, foundation. BY THE WITNESS: A. Yeah, I really don't know. I -- I don't know what -- what he was thinking. Q. Well, were you saving energy or something with the lights? Is there a problem with them that BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 84 1 you use them too much, or is it just kind of a 2 policy-driven decision to turn them on or off? 3 MR. HURD: 4 ahead. 5 BY THE WITNESS: 6 A. Objection, compound question. Yeah, it's -- again, it's department policy. 7 I didn't have enough information at that point in 8 time. 9 happening and developing very rapidly. This is not happening in slow motion. 10 Go Q. Okay. This is So how far is this period -- this 11 space, let's say, in miles from Monticello to the 12 crash point? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. All right. 15 blocks? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. You don't know? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Have you ever reported over the radio that Well, how far is a mile in city 20 somebody's a mile away, two miles away, anything like 21 that? 22 A. I haven't, no. 23 Q. Have you ever learned that a city block 24 measures a percentage or a fraction of a mile? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 85 1 A. I don't recall. 2 Q. Have you ever heard eight blocks to the 3 mile, six blocks to the mile, ten blocks to the mile, 4 anything like that? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. Okay. Have you looked at the numbers on the 7 streets? You gave me those before. 8 4000 was one of the intersections. 9 A. That would be Pulaski. 10 Q. I understand that. 11 4000. 12 was the 3300; is that right? 13 I think you said You said Pulaski was at And then the point where the car came to rest A. I misspoke on that. It was Spaulding and -- 14 approximately Spaulding and Wilson. 15 that's actually correct. 16 would be three blocks east of Central Park, and 17 that's not correct. 18 19 Q. I don't think If I told you 3300, that When you guys called the shots fired on the radio, did you give an address? 20 A. I never called the shots fired. 21 Q. Your partner did, or did nobody? 22 A. I believe my partner did. 23 Q. Did you hear him call shots fire, or am I 24 giving you information you didn't know? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 86 1 A. I don't recall. 2 Q. When they have the location of the incident 3 at 3317 West Wilson, do you agree that that was the 4 location of this incident? 5 A. I -- I don't know. 6 Q. All right. Well, let's see if we have a 7 police report already marked. 8 one. 9 10 MR. O'CONNOR: If not, I'll show you How do you want to mark these, Matt, Lawryn No. 1 for today? 11 MR. HURD: 12 MR. O'CONNOR: 13 don't mind? 14 BY MR. O'CONNOR: Yep. May I have a sticker, if you Thank you. 15 Q. L-a-w-r-y-n, is that correct, sir? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Today is the 9th. 18 MR. HURD: 19 MR. O'CONNOR: 20 21 Today is the 10th. 10th, thank you very much. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. All right. I'm going to show you Exhibit 22 No. 1 for today's purposes, which is just a 23 supplementary case report? 24 MR. O'CONNOR: You want to take a peek? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 87 1 2 BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. If you want to look on that second page, it 3 has location of incident, 3317 West Wilson; is that 4 right? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. So from 3317 West Wilson to -- from that to 7 the point where you first saw Castellanos is about 8 how many hundreds in city blocks? 9 A. Like 3800. 10 Q. All right. 11 that right? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. Aside from those first two attempts that you So 500 in terms of addresses, is 14 say you made over the radio, did you make any other 15 attempts on the radio as you closed in on the area 16 where the car actually came to rest? 17 18 19 A. I believe those were the only two attempts that I was able to make. Q. All right. And when you came up to the area 20 where Mr. Castellanos's car had come to rest, at that 21 point you guys turned on the blue lights for the 22 first time, right? 23 A. I believe my partner did. 24 Q. Was that in violation of company policy -- BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 88 1 or City policy to turn on your blue lights at that 2 point? 3 A. No. 4 Q. So it's basically too late to pursue him. 5 The vehicle had crashed. Now you can turn on the blue lights, right? 6 MR. HURD: 7 ahead. 8 BY THE WITNESS: 9 10 A. We weren't pursuing him. Q. 12 Strike that. Okay. 13 We were following So as you come around Bernard -- As you come past Bernard, do you regain sight of Mr. Castellanos's vehicle? 15 A. No. 16 Q. So you guys know where he is? 17 A. Well, we know that he went through the 18 Go the vehicle, sir. 11 14 Objection, compound question. stoplight. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. Because he just missed a vehicle. 21 Q. So you saw him? 22 A. We saw -- that's where we lost sight of him, 23 24 sir. How do you know that? We saw him go through the stoplight. Q. Okay. And you say he just missed a vehicle? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 89 1 2 A. Well, he almost hit a vehicle that was going through the intersection. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. It could cause harm to the guy in the other 6 Which is dangerous, right? vehicle? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Was there a collision of kind, or did he 9 just miss him? 10 A. I -- I didn't see a collision at that point. 11 Q. Would your blue lights have been assistance 12 to the guy who was just missed, that there was cars 13 coming at a high rate of speed at him? 14 A. I don't think so. We were too far west. 15 Q. If -- by the way, if Mr. Castellanos had 16 stopped in response to you turning on your blue 17 lights, if you decided to ever turn them on before 18 the final crash, that would stop him from going 19 through any other intersections eastbound; is that 20 right? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. Well, it sounds kind of obvious. But if you 23 turn on the blue lights and he pulls over, by 24 definition he's not going further eastbound, right? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 90 1 A. If he pulls over, yeah. 2 Q. All right. So that would have avoided some 3 collisions along the way, and it also would have 4 avoided the final collision had he stopped, had you 5 put on your blue lights and that's what he responded 6 to, true? 7 A. That's possible. 8 Q. All right. 9 10 He was never given that opportunity because the blue lights were never turned on; is that correct? 11 A. The blue lights were never turned on. 12 Q. All right. Did Mr. Castellanos's car come 13 into contact with any other vehicles prior to its 14 final resting point? 15 A. I don't understand your question. 16 Q. Sure. 17 The car came to rest somewhere on the street and stopped moving, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. That's when you guys pulled up and put on 20 your blue lights for the first time? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Had he come in contact with any other cars 23 while going eastbound on Wilson or at any time before 24 his car came to a final resting point? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 91 1 A. At that point in time, I didn't see any 2 collisions with any other vehicles. 3 Mr. Castellanos's vehicle, which was facing north and 4 south on Wilson, which is an east-and-west street. 5 Q. We rolled up on So eastbound on Wilson, neither you nor your 6 partner saw any collisions between Castellanos's car 7 and anybody else's; is that right? 8 A. No, sir, we didn't see any collisions. 9 Q. So you didn't report to any investigator 10 that you saw Mr. Castellanos car hit any other cars 11 while he was going eastbound on Wilson; is that 12 correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You're not aware of your partner telling any 15 investigator that you saw Mr. Castellanos's car come 16 in contact with any other vehicles eastbound on 17 Wilson; is that correct? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. If you had seen Mr. Castellanos's car come 20 in contact with any other vehicles eastbound on 21 Wilson, that would be something that you would have 22 told the investigators in your report; is that right? 23 A. Sure. 24 Q. And if you had seen any vehicles that BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 92 1 Mr. Castellanos's car had come in contact with on 2 Wilson, would that be reason enough to put on the 3 blue lights? 4 A. 5 6 It's a judgment call. see that. I mean, but we didn't Q. It didn't happen. I didn't ask you that, sir. Let's assume 7 for a moment that either you or your partner told an 8 investigator that while you were traveling eastbound 9 on Wilson, you or your partner saw Mr. Castellanos's 10 vehicle come in contact with a vehicle that it 11 sideswiped going the opposite direction. 12 true, would that be reason enough to turn on the blue 13 lights? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. What else do you need to know? 16 A. I would have to have more information. 17 Q. Like what? 18 A. I'm not sure if that's -- that wasn't the 19 20 situation. Q. It's a hypothetical. Okay. If that was I just don't know. So if any of the police reports say 21 that either you or your partner told the 22 investigators that it was witnessed by one of you or 23 both of you that Castellanos's car had been involved 24 in a sideswipe on Wilson, given that, combined with BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 93 1 the fact that you know he's going 80 to a hundred 2 miles an hour and increasing speed, would that be 3 enough to put the blue lights on? 4 5 6 A. We never did that. It's a hypothetical. It's a hypothetical. Q. I'm well aware it's a hypothetical. I want 7 you to assume for the moment that that hypothetical 8 is correct, that there will be -- I want you to 9 assume that there will be a police report that will 10 say that either you or your partner witnessed a 11 sideswipe between Mr. Castellanos and somebody else's 12 vehicle while going eastbound on Wilson. 13 witness that or if your partner did witness that 14 event, that hypothetical event, would that be good 15 enough to turn on the blue lights? 16 A. If you did You know, that's a tough question to answer 17 because it could make things worse. I don't know the 18 state of mind that the driver's in. You know, I 19 don't know. 20 Q. 21 Do you guys ever get punished for putting on the blue lights? 22 A. No. 23 Q. So what's the -- I'm not trying to be a 24 wiseguy. What's the big deal, that you seem so BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 94 1 concerned that you shouldn't turn on the blue lights? 2 Is there a reason that you're concerned that you 3 should not turn on the blue lights under this 4 circumstance? 5 A. It's a hypothetical question. I -- I don't 6 see why you wouldn't be able to put the lights on in 7 that hypothetical question of yours. 8 9 10 Q. Okay. So if you're following a car and you're within the speed limit, is there anything preventing you from putting the blue lights on then? 11 A. I'm sorry. 12 Q. Sure. Can you -- Let's assume you're following 13 Mr. Castellanos and you're only going the speed 14 limit. 15 from putting your blue lights on? Is there anything that prevents you by policy 16 A. Of course not. 17 Q. Okay. I can turn the lights on. So you can choose to turn the lights 18 on anytime you want except when you exceed the speed 19 limit, because now you might be pursuing versus 20 following; is that the difference? 21 A. Could you rephrase that? 22 Q. Okay. If you're traveling, following 23 somebody, and you're within the speed limit, there is 24 nothing that prevents you from putting on the blue BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 95 1 lights; is that correct? 2 A. Yeah, I can turn the blue lights on. 3 Q. So the only difference that prevents you now 4 from turning on the blue lights in this scenario is 5 that you guys are speeding on Wilson while following 6 Mr. Castellanos; is that correct? 7 A. I don't understand that question. 8 Q. Please tell me what you don't understand. 9 I'll be happy to try and accommodate your confusion. 10 A. I'm confused. 11 Q. All right. 12 Please help me. What are you confused about, and I'll be happy to clarify. 13 A. The light part. 14 Q. All right. You told me that if you're 15 traveling the speed limit following somebody, you can 16 turn the lights on, the blue lights, right? 17 18 A. If I'm making a traffic stop or following somebody? 19 Q. 20 somebody -- 21 A. 22 Well, I'm assuming when you follow That would be considered pursuit then, so I wouldn't be able to do it. 23 Q. Wait a second. 24 A. If I'm making a traffic stop -- you're -- BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 96 1 you're splitting hairs here. 2 traffic stop, I'm gonna turn the lights on. 3 Q. Okay. If I'm going to make a So Mr. Castellanos, at the point that 4 you first see him blow one stop sign, that's all you 5 know about this guy, right? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. You turn the blue lights on, you're not 8 speeding, he just blew a traffic signal or a stop 9 sign, you can make a traffic stop, right? 10 A. We could. 11 Q. You're kind of obligated because you just 12 witnessed something that violated the law and you 13 should stop him, right? 14 15 A. Yes. In a normal situation, yeah, we would stop him, but -- 16 Q. Okay. So he stop -- he makes a right-hand 17 turn -- 18 A. Sir, can I finish? 19 Q. Fire away. 20 A. He's going so fast, the lights -- he's so 21 far ahead of us, we wouldn't have been able to -- I 22 don't even know if he would have been able to see the 23 lights. 24 Q. He was going that fast. Actually, he's one block ahead of you, you BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 97 1 told me. If he's one block ahead of you and he turns 2 right onto the very same street that you're traveling 3 on and you've now witnessed him break an ordinance 4 for not stopping at the stop sign, you can turn on 5 your blue lights because you're not speeding and you 6 can effectuate a traffic stop right there; isn't that 7 right? 8 A. In normal circumstances, yes. 9 Q. And as of this point in time -- 10 A. We were -- 11 Q. -- all he's done is blow a stop sign. 12 MR. HURD: Hold on. 13 answering the question? 14 A. Were you finished When we first observed Mr. Castellanos, we 15 were almost at a complete stop, and he's going at a 16 high rate of speed. 17 don't recall. 18 half? 19 you -- I'm giving you estimates. 20 fast, and he makes the right-hand turn. 21 know what was going on. 22 like you're trying to slow this down, and that's just 23 not how it happened. 24 I mean, was it one block? Was it two blocks or a block and a I don't recall the exact distance. Q. I I gave But he's going very We didn't You know, you're -- it seems It was going very, very fast. So what prevents you -- BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 98 1 A. I wasn't driving the vehicle, Mr. O'Connor. 2 Q. Okay. So what prevents your partner or 3 yourself, because it's within reach, when stopping at 4 a stop sign and a guy's one block away and he's going 5 fast and he makes a right-hand turn -- what prevents 6 you by policy from turning your blue lights on right 7 there? 8 MR. HURD: 9 several times. 10 Objection, asked and answered BY THE WITNESS: 11 A. I wasn't driving the vehicle. 12 Q. I know that. 13 A. It was, I believe -- you know, I don't know 14 what my partner was thinking at that point in time. 15 I wasn't operating the vehicle. 16 shoes, I probably would have left the lights off 17 because he was going so fast that, you know, we don't 18 know what it's going to turn into and we're not 19 allowed to pursue. 20 policy. 21 Q. If I was in his It's against the department If you turn on your blue lights and someone 22 doesn't stop, doesn't that give you valuable 23 information? 24 A. It doesn't mean that I can, you know, chase BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 99 1 the vehicle or pursue the vehicle. 2 Q. It might mean that somebody's trying to get 3 away, right? 4 A. Maybe, possibly. 5 Q. Okay. Well, when you turn on your blue 6 lights and someone doesn't stop, as a police officer 7 does that tell you something? 8 A. Yeah, it does. 9 Q. What does it tell you? 10 A. He's not stopping. 11 Q. And that means that maybe the guy's doing 12 something that he shouldn't be doing, right? 13 A. Possibly, yeah. 14 Q. Which would give you all the more reason to 15 say 10-1, we have lights on and this guy is speeding 16 away from us and he's not stopping. 17 you a chance to get on the radio and a chance to 18 notify people that there's an issue, right? 19 20 A. That would give here. Mr. O'Connor, you're talking about chances I didn't get -- 21 Q. Pardon? 22 A. Mr. O'Connor, you're talking about chances 23 here. I didn't have a chance. 24 to get over the air. I tried. I attempted This isn't happening -- this BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 100 1 isn't a routine traffic stop. 2 very, very fast. 3 isn't a normal situation. This is happening This is seconds, seconds. This 4 Q. Do crimes always happen in slow motion? 5 A. Of course not. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. At times, yes. 8 Q. You're trained to react, right? 9 A. I'm trained to do my job. 10 Q. Okay. Things happen quickly, right? And part of your job is to react when 11 you see something that is done that you believe may 12 be a violation of the law, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. My job is to enforce the law. So let's assume Mr. Castellanos makes 15 a right-hand turn through that first stop sign, he's 16 going at a high rate of speed, and you guys turn on 17 your blue lights. 18 you gotta do is keep your foot on the brake -- or 19 your partner keeps his foot on the brakes, and you 20 guys are safe, as he's a block away going the other 21 direction, right? 22 23 24 A. I was not driving, okay? an option? Q. If you felt in any way unsafe, all I mean, was that Possibly. Okay. If Mr. Castellanos's car hit any BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 101 1 parked cars on the way to the resting point where his 2 car was stopped ultimately, would that be a reason 3 for you or your partner to put on the blue lights and 4 then pursue him? 5 A. If I observed it? 6 Q. Yes, sir. 7 A. Again, it's a judgment call. I mean, I 8 don't know the state of the mind of the driver at 9 that point in time. If -- it could actually make 10 things worse. 11 Q. How? 12 A. Because he could take off and go faster. 13 Q. How much faster can he go than a hundred 14 miles an hour down Wilson? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. All right. Well, could it make it better by 17 putting on the blue lights if you see dangerous 18 activity going on? 19 lights are there for you guys? Is that part of why the blue 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. All right. If your partner or yourself told 22 any investigator that either of you witnessed 23 Mr. Castellanos's car hit any parked cars before he 24 came to a rest in the final resting space, would that BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 102 1 scenario be within company policy -- or City policy, 2 I should say, to illuminate those blue lights? 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 MR. HURD: Objection, asked and answered. Go ahead and answer it again. BY THE WITNESS: A. Yeah, I -- again, it's a judgment call. I mean, I would probably turn the lights on. Q. Okay. Would there be any reason that you would be prevented from turning on the blue lights if 10 either you or your partner witnessed 11 Mr. Castellanos's car come in contact with any other 12 vehicle? 13 A. I'm sorry. I didn't catch all that. 14 Q. Is there a policy that would prevent you or 15 your partner from illuminating those blue emergency 16 lights had either one of you seen Castellanos's car 17 hit another vehicle? 18 A. Is there a policy that would prevent me from 19 turning on the lights -- is he continuing, or is he 20 resting? 21 Q. Continuing. 22 A. That would be considered a pursuit then. 23 mean, if he's gonna -- you know, it's all about 24 liability. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 I 103 1 Q. So if Castellanos is going eastbound on 2 Wilson, gets sideswiped by another car, hits a couple 3 other cars along the way, either one of you guys see 4 that, you're telling me that neither one of you are 5 going to turn on the blue lights? 6 A. That would be -- if we're chasing him or 7 pursuing him, we're not allowed to do that. 8 against department policy. 9 Q. It's So the difference is you could slow down to 10 35 miles an hour and then you'd be okay to turn on 11 the blue lights under that scenario? 12 A. Why would I do that? 13 Q. To stop him and comply with policy. 14 A. But you're saying -- Mr. O'Connor, you're 15 saying that he's continuing to flee. He's continuing 16 to travel eastbound on Monticello [sic] while hitting 17 cars. 18 know, I was -- I tried to get over the air. If I -- what good is that going to do? You 19 Q. Blocks before that, right? 20 A. Well, you just refreshed my memory with the 21 supplemental report, and it's 3300. 22 observed him, was it 3800? 23 five blocks. 24 Q. When we first So it's approximately How far -- how long does it take you to BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 104 1 2 travel five blocks at 50 to 70 miles an hour? A. I don't know. I would say not long, though. 3 And if you're going 80 to 100 miles an hour, I would 4 say it's much faster, in theory. 5 6 7 8 9 Q. Were you or your partner ever going 80 to 100 miles an hour? A. I told you that my best estimation is probably 50 to 65 or 70. Q. You said that you at some point lost view of 10 Mr. Castellanos's vehicle when he was eastbound on 11 Wilson. 12 first time? 13 A. When did you next see that vehicle for the The first time I observed the vehicle after 14 we lost sight of him is when he crashed, and that 15 would have been -- was it 3317 on Wilson? 16 Q. Did you see the crash occur? 17 A. No, I did not. 18 Q. So did you hear the crash occur? 19 A. No. 20 Q. So you guys are traveling along Wilson 21 eastbound, and at some point in time you see 22 Mr. Castellanos's car stopped basically in the middle 23 of the street and it's already crashed, right? 24 A. Yes. We saw the cra- -- we saw the vehicle BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 105 1 2 3 4 5 6 resting. Q. All right. How far away were you from that vehicle when you saw it? A. I think -- I believe we crossed Kimball when we first saw the vehicle. Q. And as you approached Mr. Castellanos's 7 vehicle, you were approaching from the driver's side; 8 is that right? 9 As your vehicle approached his stopped 10 vehicle, your vehicle was approaching from the 11 driver's-side vantage point? 12 A. 13 14 15 From Mr. Castellanos's vehicle? MR. O'CONNOR: Strike the question, please. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Your vehicle that you were a passenger in 16 was coming eastbound. 17 Mr. Castellanos, his driver's side of the vehicle was 18 the furthest westerly part of his vehicle. 19 words, you're driving towards his driver's door, 20 right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. All right. 23 24 And as you approached In other Exhibit No. 1 from Mr. Martinez's deposition the other day -MR. HURD: Why don't we go ahead and mark BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 106 1 this as Lawryn Exhibit No. 2. 2 MR. O'CONNOR: 3 MR. HURD: 4 5 6 Okay, that's fine. Because we're going to attach all the exhibits to the deps. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Okay. So this -- this exhibit has been 7 previously marked as Martinez No. 1. It's now also 8 marked as Lawryn No. 2. 9 shows the back end of Mr. Castellanos's vehicle at That is a photograph that 10 rest, and it also shows down the street looking 11 westbound, which would have been in the direction 12 that you would have come from, correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. All right. So you see the marked squad car 15 a block or two down the street there? It set up a 16 perimeter for the investigation that lasted through 17 the next afternoon. Do you see that car? 18 A. I can kind of see it, yeah. 19 Q. All right. 20 A. I believe that's Kimball. 21 Q. So that would be how far from the resting 22 How far down is that? point? 23 A. I'm not sure, a couple blocks. 24 Q. Okay. So at least from where that squad car BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 107 1 is in the photograph, you would be coming up on 2 Mr. Castellanos's vehicle then already stopped? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Okay. So from two blocks away at least, you 5 could see Mr. Castellanos's vehicle stopped 6 perpendicular to the parked cars, right? 7 A. Mm-hmm. 8 Q. Is that a yes? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And during that two blocks, is there any 11 rush to get there now that his vehicle is stopped 12 parked up against another vehicle in the street 13 perpendicular? 14 15 16 A. Well, we were already going at a high rate of speed ourselves. Q. I understand. But now you see the car 17 stopped, and you told me you're not pursuing him. 18 you're just following him, and now he's stopped. 19 we agree so far? 20 A. He's crashed. 21 Q. All right. 22 to hurry up now. So Do So basically there's no reason You know he's stopped there, right? 23 A. I would disagree with that. 24 Q. Okay. So were you traveling still at the BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 108 1 50 to 70 miles an hour then up until the point where 2 you came up on the parked car? 3 A. I don't recall how fast we were going, but 4 we were -- we were trying to get there as soon as 5 possible. 6 Q. Why? 7 A. Well, we didn't know what was going on. 8 Q. So at that point were you still -- were 9 pursuing him or following him? 10 that point? 11 A. What would you say at We were following him, but we were trying 12 to -- we saw that the vehicle had crashed, and, you 13 know, we were trying to see what's going on. 14 didn't know what's going on. 15 Q. Okay. We So from two blocks away or more where 16 you could see that car stopped, now that the car is 17 crashed, is that reason enough to turn the blue 18 lights on? 19 A. I wasn't driving. 20 Q. Okay. Let's ask the question again. Is 21 that reason enough to turn on the blue lights when 22 you can see two blocks or more ahead that his car is 23 stopped? 24 A. Possibly. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 109 1 Q. So Officer Martinez could have turned on the 2 blue lights at that point in time then and not been 3 in violation of any City policy? 4 A. Okay. I don't see why he would be. 5 Q. Okay. So perfectly good reason to turn on 6 the blue lights once you see Mr. Martinez has been 7 involved in some kind of collision, right -- excuse 8 me -- Mr. Castellanos is involved in some kind of a 9 collision; is that correct, sir? 10 A. He could have turned the lights on, but this 11 is -- this happened, you know, so fast. 12 you're talking two blocks. 13 60 miles an hour, we're going to be right up on them, 14 and I am not exactly sure when Officer Martinez 15 activated his lights. 16 but I don't know when he turned them on. 17 were on, you know, when we rolled up in the vehicle. 18 But when my partner activated the lights, exactly 19 when, I couldn't tell. 20 21 Q. All right. I mean, If we're going 50 to I know they were turned on, I know they You sat here about a week ago through Mr. Martinez's entire testimony, didn't you? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Were you listening? 24 A. Of course. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 110 1 Q. Did you hear him say that he turned on the 2 blue lights after he came to a stop at the vehicle 3 where Mr. Castellanos's car was parked? 4 A. I don't recall what he said. 5 Q. Okay. So you and Mr. Martinez come up to 6 where the car is stopped -- and "the car" being 7 Mr. Castellanos's car. 8 9 A. 11 Q. The front wheel was spinning. I saw smoke. So this was a front wheel drive car, from using your observation skills? 12 13 I observed the wheels spinning on the vehicle. 10 What did you observe? A. I don't know if it was a front wheel or rear wheel, all wheel. 14 Q. I don't know. All right. Well, at least if the front 15 wheel is spinning, that tells you that at least the 16 front wheels are powered, right? 17 A. I don't know. 18 the car crashed. 19 know. 20 Q. It was obviously a collision, I couldn't answer that. All right. I don't And Mr. Castellanos's car had 21 the back of his car pinned up against a parked car, 22 right? 23 A. Yeah. I can see that in the picture. 24 Q. Okay. So the wheels, if they're spinning, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 111 1 have to be spinning in reverse or he would move 2 forward, right? 3 A. I don't know what he was doing. I just -- 4 Q. Well, I'm kind of asking you what you saw. 5 A. And I told you, sir. I said that I saw 6 the -- I guess it would be the -- on the driver's 7 side as we were approaching, I recall seeing the 8 front wheel spinning. 9 10 Q. And did you see them spinning in reverse or forward? 11 A. I don't recall. 12 Q. Okay. Now, put on your deductive reasoning 13 hat for a second. 14 end and it's not pinned in the front end and the 15 front wheels are spinning, it's got to be going in 16 reverse because it's keeping it up against the parked 17 car. 18 move forward away from that parked car, right? 19 20 21 22 23 24 If the car's pinned up in the back Because if it was going in forward, it would A. I don't know. I wasn't sure which way the wheels were spinning. Q. Okay. Was the front left wheel intact? it full of air when it was spinning? A. I don't recall. I was focusing on Mr. Castellanos. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 Was 112 1 Q. Okay. And what was he doing at that time 2 while the wheel was spinning and the car was pinned 3 up against the parked car? 4 5 A. heard the engine revving and I saw smoke. 6 7 Q. So to you did it appear the car was disabled? 8 9 He was looking straight ahead, and I just A. Well, if the wheels were spinning, I wouldn't say it was necessarily disabled. 10 could tell that it had been in a crash. 11 know. 12 Q. All right. I mean, I I don't By virtue of the fact that he's 13 sitting looking straight ahead, or at least facing 14 straight ahead, and the wheels are spinning and the 15 car's not going anywhere, did that appear to you that 16 the driver may be unconscious? 17 A. I saw he was conscious. 18 Q. How do you know that? 19 A. Because I exited the vehicle immediately and 20 I was approaching the vehicle. 21 know, he was looking straight ahead. 22 slumped over taking a nap. 23 24 Q. Okay. I could see that, you He wasn't Have you ever seen a dead person, for instance? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 113 1 A. Of course. 2 Q. Okay. 3 open, agree? 4 A. Sure. 5 Q. Have you ever seen somebody who's been Sometimes dead people have their eyes 6 knocked out and they have their eyes up, but they're 7 unconscious? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Is it possible in your observation and your 10 experience as a police officer that someone may have 11 been injured, may not even be conscious, but still 12 appear to be looking in a direction? 13 A. It's possible. But, you know, again, the 14 accelerator -- you know, the engine was revving, and 15 I do recall the wheels spinning, so ... 16 17 Q. accelerator, right? 18 19 A. Well, I don't see how else the wheels would be spinning if it wasn't. 20 21 So that could mean that his foot's on the Q. Well, it could be that his shoe got stuck under the accelerator. 22 A. That's one reason, right? Well, I saw his eyes open. And to me when I 23 exited the vehicle, he was appearing to -- to get 24 away. That's -- I thought that, you know, he was BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 114 1 trying to flee, continue to get away from us. 2 Q. Well, if the wheels are spinning and the 3 car's backed up against a parked car, it's not going 4 anywhere, right? 5 6 A. The car didn't move, did it? dark. I remember seeing the wheels moving. It was It was -- 7 Q. But now you've got your blue lights on -- 8 A. It was -- 9 Q. -- and you got your headlights, correct? 10 A. Can I finish? 11 Q. Yeah, go ahead. 12 A. It was dark. There was a lot of smoke. 13 lights were activated, yes. 14 wheels -- the front driver's-side wheels spinning. 15 Which way it was going, I don't know. The I do recall seeing the 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. Mr. Castellanos was -- his eyes were open, 18 and he was looking straight ahead. 19 Q. Did his eyes move? 20 A. I didn't get that close to him, sir. 21 Q. Did his head move? 22 A. His head did move, yes. 23 Q. Did his head move when you first approached 24 the vehicle and when he was looking straight ahead? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 115 1 A. As we were approaching the vehicle, yes, his 2 head moved. 3 Q. All right. The other things that were in 4 the car, did you notice anything afterwards that 5 could have been stuck under the accelerator? 6 A. I'm sorry. Could you -- 7 Q. Did you look in the car afterwards? We're 8 jumping ahead a little bit to when you handcuffed him 9 after you guys shot him. 10 Did you notice what was on the floor of the car? 11 A. No. 12 Q. So you didn't make any observations as to 13 whether anything else might have been stuck under the 14 accelerator, like that speaker that was laying on the 15 floor or anything like that? 16 A. I didn't -- I don't recall. 17 Q. At some point in time did the wheel stop 18 spinning? 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. All right. 21 Well, did you ever have to do anything to turn the car off? 22 A. I didn't turn the car off. 23 Q. Did anybody turn the car off, to your 24 knowledge? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 116 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. At some point in time that evening before 3 you left the scene, did the wheels on the front of 4 that car stop spinning or were they still spinning 5 when you left the scene? 6 7 A. They weren't spinning when I came back to the scene. 8 Q. What do you mean when you came back? 9 A. When we came back from the hospital. 10 Q. Okay. When you left the scene initially to 11 go to the hospital, were the wheels spinning on that 12 car or had they stopped? 13 A. I don't recall. 14 Q. When you approached the car ultimately to 15 handcuff Mr. Castellanos, were the wheels spinning? 16 A. I don't recall. 17 Q. When you approached the vehicle before you 18 got out of the car, did you do anything? 19 20 21 A. I'm sorry. Could you just ask that one more time? Q. Sure. When the -- when your vehicle 22 approached Mr. Castellanos's vehicle, I'm assuming 23 Mr. Martinez stopped your vehicle? 24 A. Yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 117 1 2 Q. How far away from Castellanos's vehicle did you guys stop? 3 A. I'm not exactly sure. 4 Q. Do you have an estimate? 5 A. I'd say 7 to 20 feet. 6 Q. Okay. 7 Did you do anything in relationship to your vehicle before you exited the vehicle? 8 A. I -- yes. 9 Q. What did you do? 10 A. I put my spotlight on the -- on 11 Mr. Castellanos. 12 Q. Did your partner put a spotlight on him too? 13 A. I believe he did. 14 Q. Okay. So now you have your headlights, you 15 have two spotlights, and eventually Mr. Martinez put 16 on the blue lights, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. So all of those lights are on 19 Mr. Castellanos before either you or your partner 20 exit the vehicle? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You exit the vehicle -- Well, strike that. 23 24 Did anything happen in relationship to Mr. Castellanos before you exited the vehicle? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 118 1 A. I mean, other than my observations? 2 Q. You told me the observations that you had. 3 Is there anything else you observed that was in any 4 way significant other than what you've already told 5 me? 6 A. No. 7 Q. So the next thing is you guys exit the 8 vehicle? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did either one of you call for back up? 11 A. I didn't. 12 Q. Did your partner? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. Would it be protocol that after you've been 15 following somebody at that high rate of speed, 16 blowing through multiple stop signs and a red light, 17 and crashing at least once and now coming to rest 18 with the wheels spinning that you would call for 19 backup? 20 A. 21 22 We -- we didn't know what was going on at that point in time. Q. That's my point. You've encountered a 23 gentleman in a car with the wheels spinning that has 24 been going at a high rate of speed, gone through BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 119 1 intersections, stop signs, red light. 2 to you that there's something wrong here? 3 A. Did it occur It occurred to me from the very moment that 4 I saw Mr. Castellanos driving the vehicle that 5 something was wrong. 6 Q. So you're following the guy for ten blocks, 7 he smashes into a car, he's in the middle of the 8 street now sideways to the cars that are parked 9 there, the wheels are spinning, and you and your 10 partner are in your vehicle at a safe distance coming 11 up towards him at whatever speed you want to approach 12 him at that point because he's already stopped. 13 there anything that would require you to call for 14 backup? 15 MR. HURD: Is Objection, compound question. 16 You assumed that it was ten blocks, and you 17 established that it was five blocks. 18 MR. O'CONNOR: Well, it's hundreds. 19 not blocks. 20 that he told me about. 21 It's We're talking about the ten blocks BY MR. O'CONNOR: 22 Q. But go ahead, sir. 23 A. So what's the question, sir? 24 Q. The question is, as you approach this BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 120 1 gentleman now in the vehicle, is there anything, 2 given all those circumstances we described, that 3 would indicate to you you should call for backup? 4 A. I didn't know. I didn't have enough 5 information at that point in time. 6 vehicle was -- you know, the way -- the damage on the 7 vehicle, the way the engine was revving, I didn't 8 know what exactly he was doing. 9 vehicle instantly, and I was, you know, announcing my 10 office, asking Mr. Castellanos to, you know, show me 11 his hands. 12 13 Q. The way the I got out of the Did you have your weapon drawn when you got out of the car? 14 A. I drew my weapon, yes. 15 Q. Okay. Is there any policy or procedure when 16 you're going to draw your weapon that if you have an 17 opportunity that you call for backup before you do 18 so? 19 A. No. 20 Q. What procedure is required before you call 21 for backup? 22 call for backup per your training and education? 23 24 A. Sorry. What precipitates the need to If it's an emergency, like I stated earlier, we would call a 10-1, but I was focusing on BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 121 1 Mr. Castellanos and asking him to show me his hands. 2 Q. Did this appear to be an emergency to you? 3 A. I didn't know what exactly was going on at 4 that point in time. 5 information. 6 don't know. 7 Q. I was trying to get more I was trying to investigate. All right. I -- I My question, though, is did you 8 determine that it was an emergency at that point in 9 time or not. 10 A. I don't know. Q. If you did determine it was an emergency, 11 on. 12 13 I didn't know what was going does that require you to call for backup? 14 A. I didn't know what was going on, sir. 15 Q. I didn't ask you that. If -- If you determined it 16 was an emergency, the determination of an emergency, 17 is that what triggers calling for backup? 18 19 A. necessary. 20 21 Q. 24 Okay. Is there some reason that you wouldn't call for backup in this situation? 22 23 I can call for backup whenever I deem A. I didn't know what we had at that point in time. Q. Okay. And please answer my question now. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 122 1 Is there something that would prevent you from 2 calling for backup in this situation? 3 penalized? 4 you call for backup in this situation? 5 A. Do people laugh at you? Do you get What happens if No, sir, nobody's going to penalize me. 6 It's not that. It's just -- understand that this is 7 happening very quick. 8 on with Mr. Castellanos at that point in time. 9 area that he was coming from initially where we We didn't know what was going The 10 observed him, again, there's -- it's a problem area 11 in the district. 12 gangs. 13 homicide not too long ago when this actually -- when 14 this incident occurred. 15 at that point in time. 16 Q. There's shots fired there. There's, you know, narcotics. There's There was a We didn't know what we had So when you got out of the car, you were -- 17 you had your guns drawn because you were looking for 18 potential trouble, right? 19 20 21 A. The last thing I'm looking for, Mr. O'Connor, is trouble. Q. You just told me five different reasons as 22 some kind of an excuse, and that's why I'm wondering. 23 Why did you tell me those things? 24 up on this particular isolated incident -- you told If you're coming BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 123 1 me all about having to know the situation. 2 talking about one incident here. We're 3 A. I was -- 4 Q. This one incident, did that require you to 5 come out with your gun drawn? 6 A. I -- yes. I -- 7 Q. Why? 8 A. Based on the way that he was driving, I 9 didn't know -- you know, I didn't know what we had. 10 There's no policy, you know, within the department 11 that says when I can draw my gun and when I can't. 12 Q. Okay. So let's assume that you had the -- 13 did you have the same feeling when you came up on the 14 crashed car as you had for that time period that you 15 said you had when you were chasing -- sorry -- 16 following him? 17 A. What do you mean the "same feeling"? 18 Q. Did you have the same impression that this 19 person is potentially dangerous, or did you have an 20 impression that this person needs help? 21 have the impression that you don't know what the 22 situation is? 23 A. 24 Or did you vehicle. Well, Mr. O'Connor, that's why I exited the I didn't know exactly what was going on. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 I 124 1 didn't know, like you said, what he was doing. 2 know, I just didn't know. 3 Q. He may have needed medical help? 4 A. Possibly. 5 Q. Okay. 6 crash, right? 7 A. The car was wrecked, yes. 8 Q. Okay. 9 10 11 He just obviously got in a bad car You had not determined at this point in time it was an emergency, in your words; is that correct? A. Well, I didn't have a chance -- I was trying 12 to figure out what was going on. 13 vehicle immediately. 14 You Q. I understand that. I exited the Exiting the vehicle and 15 not having a chance to determine what was going on, 16 you had not made the determination that this was an 17 emergency situation; is that correct? 18 A. I tried to get over the air twice during 19 the -- from the time that I observed Mr. Castellanos 20 and the time that he crashed. 21 emergency? 22 dispatch know and the other units know that we have a 23 car going at a very high rate of speed, going through 24 stop signs, going through a stoplight. Did I think it was an I was trying to get over the air to let BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 125 1 Q. But you didn't tell anybody that, did you? 2 A. Mr. O'Connor, I tried. 3 Q. I understand. 4 A. But I'm trying to answer your question. I was not -- 5 was not able to get through. 6 I can't just, you know, break through and say, hey, 7 this is a 10-1, we got an emergency. I 8 9 10 Q. There was air traffic. Did you feel it was important to pass that information along? Is that why you tried to get it over the radio? 11 A. Why else would I do it? 12 Q. I just need to you say it. 13 A. I'm just -- but, I mean, that's -- yes. 14 Q. Okay. So now you felt that information was 15 important to get over the airway, and that's why you 16 tried; is that correct? 17 A. Of course. 18 Q. Okay. Now, the two blocks back or more in 19 that photograph that you're looking at in your 20 Exhibit No. 2, if you were at that location where the 21 squad was as you're approaching now a crashed 22 vehicle, is there anything that would prevent you to 23 get that important information over the air as you 24 now approached a stopped vehicle? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 126 1 2 A. to? Is it important? Yes. Would I have liked 3 Of course. Q. I said is there anything that would have 4 prevented you from giving that important information 5 during that two-block window? 6 7 A. 10 It happened very quickly. 8 9 We rolled right up on the vehicle, sir. Q. Okay. Other than -- it only happened because your partner drove that fast, I mean, let's face it. 11 A. That's right, isn't it? Well, Mr. O'Connor, what's my partner 12 supposed to do? 13 and turn the lights on? 14 Q. Is he supposed to stop the vehicle I'm not arguing with you. You said it 15 happened fast. 16 that last two blocks is that your partner's driving 17 70 miles an hour, right? 18 19 A. The reason that it happened fast for I never said he was driving 70 miles an hour. 20 Q. Was he? 21 A. I gave you an estimation of his speeds, and 22 I know that based on -- 23 Q. He's driving -- 24 A. Can I finish, sir? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 127 1 Q. Yeah. 2 A. Based on my experience in driving the 3 streets of Chicago, I can typically drive -- 65 to 4 70 is pushing it. 5 partner was going, but I do know that he had to slow 6 down multiple times because we weren't going to go 7 through the stoplights and the stop signs like 8 Mr. Castellanos did. 9 10 11 Q. I don't know if that's how fast my But you did. You just went a little bit slower, right? A. Well, we'd almost come to a complete stop. 12 Because if there's another vehicle coming -- coming 13 through that intersection and we T-bone it, we're 14 liable for it. 15 Q. My point in asking you the question is, the 16 rate of speed that your vehicle was traveling from 17 the point where that squad car is featured in Exhibit 18 No. 2 for you today up until the point where 19 Castellanos's car was already at a dead stop was 20 controlled entirely by your partner driving at 21 whatever speed he chose, correct? 22 A. Was it controlled by my partner? 23 Q. Yeah. 24 faster. If he steps on the gas, he goes If he steps on the brake, he goes slower. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 128 1 A. Well, he's controlling the -- 2 Q. Faster, less time. 3 A. He's controlling the vehicle. 4 Q. Okay. Slower, more time. Which also controls the rate of speed 5 and the time it takes you to reach this stopped 6 vehicle, right? 7 A. So the question is? 8 Q. The question is, as you're approaching is 9 there any reason you wouldn't have been able to get 10 on the radio and pass that important information 11 along that you felt was important to pass on on the 12 radio? 13 A. I believe I answered that. 14 Q. Actually, you didn't. 15 A. It happened -- 16 Q. -- the two-block window. 17 A. It happened so fast, Mr. O'Connor. 18 got over the air. I tried twice. 19 what was in front of me. I'm talking about -- I never I was focusing on 20 Q. Did you ever tell your partner to slow down? 21 A. I never told him to slow down, no. 22 Q. What were you doing for that two blocks or 23 so before the car came to a final rest while you were 24 following? What physically were you doing? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 129 1 A. I was sitting. 2 Q. Any reason why you couldn't be talking on 3 the radio at that time for the last two blocks? 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 A. I believe there was still air traffic going Q. Do you know that, or are you just throwing on. that out there? A. Well, because I tried to do it two times just prior to that, and, again, this is happening in seconds. Q. This is happening in seconds. I understand you know that you tried 12 earlier. But my point is, in that last two blocks or 13 so, you have no idea if there was radio traffic 14 because you weren't actually trying to call -- 15 A. Actually, I -- 16 Q. -- in that two blocks, were you? 17 A. I'm on the record stating that within the 18 two blocks I was. 19 that I attempted to get over the air again, which is 20 about two blocks. 21 22 23 24 Q. I said at Roosevelt High School So is that squad car in the background parked in front of Roosevelt? A. It's -- it would be on the east end of Roosevelt, yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 130 1 Q. When you got out of the car, not determining 2 yet that this was an emergency situation, why did you 3 have your gun drawn? 4 A. Because based on the way that 5 Mr. Castellanos was driving and him revving the 6 engine and the wheels spinning, you know, I -- I 7 perceived that as a threat. 8 9 10 Q. So your first offense was looking at him as a threat as opposed to looking to offer him assistance; is that a fair statement? 11 A. No. 12 Q. When you got out of the car, did you feel 13 that you were going to be offering assistance to this 14 person, that you should be afraid of this person? 15 What were your feelings? 16 A. Well, I mean, I would have loved to have 17 offered assistance, but I just didn't know what was 18 going on at that point. 19 20 21 22 Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Castellanos at any time that evening, "Are you okay, sir"? A. I never got a chance to answer [sic] that question. 23 Q. My question is, did you ever ask him that? 24 A. If he was okay? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 131 1 Q. Yeah. 2 A. I asked him -- you know, I announced my 3 office. 4 Q. I heard what you announced, and I'm -- 5 A. And I asked him to show me -- 6 Q. -- asking you -- 7 A. -- his hands. I announced my office and 8 asked him to show his hands because, you know, it was 9 an officer-safety thing. 10 Q. And I asked you a very different question. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Castellanos if he was 13 okay? 14 A. I never had an opportunity, sir. 15 Q. So the answer would be no? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Castellanos was he in 18 need of medical attention? 19 A. I never had an opportunity. 20 Q. Did your partner ever ask Mr. Castellanos if 21 he was okay or in need of medical attention? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Did your partner say anything when he exited 24 the vehicle? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 132 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What did he say? 3 A. He announced his office and was, you know, 4 giving verbal direction. 5 Q. Specifically what did he say? 6 A. I don't know specifically what Officer 7 8 9 10 Martinez says -- or said, I should say. Q. All right. So as you sit here today, you don't know what Mr. -- what Officer Martinez said specifically; is that correct? 11 A. No. 12 Q. That is not correct? 13 question -- 14 A. 15 16 17 No, that's correct. I have to ask you the That's correct. I'm sorry. Q. Just to finish that, let me just ask you the question clearly. 18 As you sit here today, would it be a true 19 statement that you do not know what Officer Martinez 20 says to Mr. Castellanos at any time? 21 statement? Is that a true 22 A. You mean verbatim? 23 Q. Yeah. 24 A. I don't know what Officer Martinez said, no. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 133 1 Q. 2 office. 3 A. 4 hands." 5 Q. 6 Okay. You told me that you announced your Tell me the specific words that you used. Well, "Chicago Police," and "show me your And that's all you said to Mr. Castellanos; is that correct? 7 A. Well, I said it multiple times. 8 Q. Those words that you just spoke, no matter 9 how many times you said them, those are the only 10 words you said to Mr. Castellanos; is that right? 11 A. To the best of my, you know, memory, yeah, I 12 announced my office and asked him to show me his 13 hands. 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q. And did you do that on one occasion or more than one occasion? A. I just stated earlier that I did it multiple times. Q. And I'm going to ask you now, how many is multiple? Once, twice -- 20 A. More than twice. 21 Q. -- how many times? 22 A. At least twice. 23 Q. As you sit here today, can you tell me if 24 you said those words more than twice to BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 134 1 Mr. Castellanos? 2 A. I can't tell you for a certainty. 3 Q. So is it specifically your recollection that 4 you said those words once or is it specifically that 5 you said those words twice or that you don't recall 6 which? 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 A. I -- know I said it multiple times. I know I said it at least twice. Q. And the words that you said is, "Chicago Police, show me your hands"? A. No, sir. I said, "Chicago Police, let me see your hands." Q. Okay. "Chicago Police, let me see your hands," those are the words you spoke to him? 15 A. I said it at least twice to Mr. Castellanos. 16 Q. I just want to make sure I have the words 17 correct. 18 right? Those are the words that you used; is that 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. All right. 21 Did Mr. Castellanos let you see his hands? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Where were his hands when you said let me 24 see your hands? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 135 1 2 A. I couldn't see them. I don't know where they were. 3 Q. Where were his arms? 4 A. He -- I mean, I guess they were kind of down 5 below the steering wheel. 6 Q. 7 apparently? 8 A. 9 10 Was he still looking forward at the time, As I was giving him verbal direction, yes, he was -- he was still looking forward. Q. 11 Okay. 12 MR. O'CONNOR: left there? 13 14 How much time do you have THE VIDEOGRAPHER: (Nonverbal response.) BY MR. O'CONNOR: 15 Q. What happened next? 16 A. I saw a gun. 17 Q. Okay. And you said -- you said to 18 Mr. Castellanos that you were a police officer, let 19 me see your hands. 20 finished that first statement or after? 21 22 23 24 A. Did you see a gun before you I don't recall. Everything happened so quickly. Q. All right. Well, if you said it a second time and you'd already seen a gun, does that make any BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 136 1 sense? 2 A. It happened very quickly. 3 Q. I -- 4 A. I can't -- I can't an- -- 5 Q. -- just want to know what happened, okay? 6 A. I understand that, Mr. O'Connor. I just 7 can't -- I can't tell you specifically, you know, 8 when a gun came up and -- I don't know. 9 Q. Okay. So you don't know if you saw a gun 10 before or after you even finished the first statement 11 that you were a police officer, let me see your 12 hands; is that true? 13 A. I recall giving Mr. Castellanos, you know, 14 the verbal direction, and then I saw a gun. 15 I might have been saying it a third time when I saw 16 the gun, but I -- 17 Q. I mean, All that tells me is that you don't know 18 when you saw the gun in relationship to what you 19 said; is that true? 20 A. I saw it after. 21 Q. After what? 22 A. After saying it at least once, probably even 23 twice. But you're asking me to be very specific on 24 this, and I -- BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 137 1 Q. That's right, I am. 2 A. Mr. O'Connor, I can't tell you exactly when 3 I saw the gun. 4 Mr. Castellanos verbal direction. 5 Q. I know that I was trying to give And you said "probably," you said it 6 twice, which indicates to me that you don't know if 7 you said that command a second time -- 8 9 A. No, I -- no, no, no, no, no, no, no. know what I said to Mr. Castellanos. No, I I'm saying I 10 probably -- the probably is I don't know when -- when 11 I saw the gun. 12 Q. That's what I was going to ask you. If you 13 said, "Chicago Police, let me see your hands," you're 14 telling me that you think you said it once, you 15 probably said -- which means to me that you don't 16 know if you said it a second time before you saw a 17 gun; is that true or not? 18 A. I don't know the chronological order of it. 19 Q. Okay. So it's true -- a true statement that 20 you don't know if you said that verbal command a 21 second time before you saw a weapon; is that true? 22 23 24 A. No, I don't know. said it multiple times. Q. I don't know. I know I When the gun -- All I'm asking is if you know you said it a BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 138 1 second time before you saw the gun. 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Okay. That's a perfectly good answer. 5 MR. O'CONNOR: 6 We can change the tape. 7 Yes or no? We're at two minutes left. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 8 Videotape No. 2. 9 12:50 p.m. 10 This will now conclude We're going off the record at (A short break was had.) 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now back on the 12 video record. 13 Videotape No. 3 of the deposition of Officer 14 Shawn Lawryn taken on February 10th, 2015. 15 Counsel? 16 17 The time is 1:04 p.m. This is BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. All right. So you mentioned that you 18 arrived at the scene. After turning on your handheld 19 light, you exit the vehicle with your weapon drawn 20 and you announce, "Chicago Police, let me see your 21 hands" once, possibly twice; is that true? 22 A. I said it multiple times, sir. 23 Q. All right. 24 Mr. Castellanos, did he stay seated facing forward while you had given those BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 139 1 instructions? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Let me back up for just one moment. During 4 this entire time when you're following 5 Mr. Castellanos, without you guys putting on your 6 blue lights, Mr. Castellanos was in no way evading 7 you on east Wilson; is that correct? 8 9 10 A. I don't know. I don't know, you know, what his state of mind was at that point in time. Q. Well, without putting on your blue lights or 11 giving him any indication that there's a police 12 officer behind him, you have no information that 13 suggests that Mr. Castellanos was resisting any kind 14 of an arrest because you hadn't actually attempted 15 one; is that true? 16 A. I don't understand the question. 17 Q. All right. Let's back up even further. If 18 you did put on your blue lights on eastbound Wilson 19 and Mr. Castellanos did not pull over, you would use 20 that information as the possibility that he was 21 avoiding being detained or arrested, right? 22 23 24 A. In a hypothetical situation if we activated the lights and he continues to flee? Q. Yeah. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 140 1 A. Is he evading us? 2 Q. Yeah? 3 A. I would -- possibly. 4 Q. Okay. But because you didn't turn on the 5 lights, you have no information that indicates that 6 he was trying to avoid coming into contact with you 7 at all because he may not have even known you were 8 there, right? 9 A. That's a possibility. 10 Q. Okay. All right. So you get to the scene. 11 You state that you're a police officer, let me see 12 your hands. 13 because his arms were down. You said you didn't see his hands What happened next? 14 A. I saw a gun. 15 Q. How did you see a gun, and where did you see 16 17 18 19 a gun? A. I saw a gun come up, and I saw Mr. Castellanos turn his head in our direction. Q. All right. Now, you were watching 20 Mr. Castellanos, you said, when you were telling him 21 you were a police officer and to show you his hands, 22 right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And obviously, when you tell somebody to BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 141 1 show me your hands -- 2 A. No. 3 Q. -- it seems to me -- 4 A. No. No, sir. I just want to get this 5 right. 6 said, "Chicago Police, let me see your hands." 7 That's the verbal direction that I was giving to 8 Mr. Castellanos. 9 hands," that's what I stated, not "show me your 10 hands." 11 Q. You keep saying "show," show me his hands. I "Chicago Police, let me see your So if the reports indicate that you told any 12 officer or your testimony ten minutes ago indicates 13 that you say "show me your hands," you're telling me 14 that that's not true? 15 A. 16 hands." 17 Q. 18 I stated, "Chicago Police, let me see your Okay. And you said the same command as many as two times, right? 19 A. I said it multiple times. 20 Q. But the only amount you can say for sure is 21 two, right? 22 A. 23 24 Two, but I believe I said it more. It's possible. Q. You didn't change the command in any way? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 142 1 A. No. 2 Q. Now, when you say "let me see your hands," 3 I'm assuming you're looking for hands, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. 6 down at the car -- in the car, right? 7 8 So you're watching his arms that are A. I seen his arm down below the steering wheel. 9 Q. All right. And you -- 10 A. I can't say that -- I can't say that I was 11 actually watching his arms. I could just see, you 12 know, this part of Mr. Castellanos's -- I guess that 13 would be his left shoulder. 14 Q. So you can see his shoulders up? 15 A. From the vantage point, and I could see that 16 he was looking straight ahead. 17 Q. So to answer the question, you can see his 18 head facing forward and you can see him from the 19 shoulders up? 20 A. Yeah, that's what I recall. 21 Q. Okay. And when you say show me -- or excuse 22 me. When you say "let me see your hands," you're 23 looking now to see his hands come up and, in fact, 24 show them to you, right? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 143 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. 3 hands. 4 you saw. That's -- yes. And you said that you didn't see his You saw a gun come up. Tell me exactly what 5 A. I saw a gun. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. I saw a gun. 8 Q. I understand that. 9 attached to? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. So you don't know if the gun was attached to 12 a hand? 13 A. 14 15 16 What was it attached to? What was the gun Well, I would assume that it is. I just didn't -- I just saw a gun. Q. I don't want you to assume anything, sir. I just want to ask what you saw. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. Did you see a hand holding a gun, or did you 19 20 21 22 23 24 simply see a gun? A. No. I saw the gun. I can't sit here and tell you for -- that I saw a hand with the gun. Q. Okay. So you have no idea what was holding the gun that you saw as you sit here today? A. I don't understand your question. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 144 1 2 3 4 5 Q. Sure. You did not see any hand specifically holding that gun; is that correct? A. I guess I didn't -- I can't tell you for certainty that I saw Mr. Castellanos holding a gun. Q. You can't tell me that you saw anybody 6 holding the gun because all you saw was the gun and 7 you didn't see a hand; is that correct? 8 A. 9 and I saw -- 10 Q. I'm just asking you what you saw, sir. 11 A. I'm trying to explain it, Mr. O'Connor. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. I saw a gun. 14 Q. I heard that. 15 A. I didn't have time to sit there and see who 16 17 was -- I'm just trying to explain -Q. 18 19 20 21 I was -- this is happening in split seconds, Let me make it easy for you. MR. HURD: Hold on. Let him answer the question. BY THE WITNESS: A. I saw the gun. Okay. I saw -- I heard 22 gunshots, and I saw the glass being blown out. I 23 can't say with all this happening so fast that I saw 24 a hand holding the gun. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 145 1 2 3 4 MR. O'CONNOR: I'll object and move to strike his entirely nonresponsive answer. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. I asked you a very simple question: 5 see a hand holding the gun? 6 true statement? 7 8 9 A. Did you You did not; is that a I don't recall seeing a gun -- I'm sorry. I don't recall seeing a hand on the gun. Q. So as you sit here today, you can't tell me, 10 having not seen a hand on the gun, which hand of any 11 person may have been holding a gun? 12 A. I was focused on the gun. 13 Q. I get it. So I'm not looking for an excuse 14 or what else you might be focusing on. 15 you a very -- I'm trying to save you a little time of 16 your life here today too, so that's why I'm asking 17 you specific questions. 18 19 I'm asking You cannot say whose hand, left or right, was on the gun because you didn't see a hand, right? 20 A. I saw the gun, so I don't recall. 21 Q. Can you tell me whose hand was on the gun, 22 if anybody's hand was on the gun, having not seen a 23 hand on the gun? 24 A. I can't tell you whose hands was on the gun. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 146 1 2 Q. Because you don't even know if a hand was on the gun, true? 3 A. I just saw the gun, sir. 4 Q. All right, that's fine. 5 me that Mr. Castellanos was holding a gun, true? 6 A. For a certainty? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. Okay. 10 see this gun? 11 A. 12 13 14 So you cannot tell All right. Where are you when you I'm outside the -- I'm in between my vehicle and his vehicle on the street. Q. And you said your vehicle was 7 to 20 feet away from his vehicle, right? 15 A. Yeah, that was my best estimation. 16 Q. That's what we're working on. 17 see the gun, how far away are you from 18 Mr. Castellanos? So when you 19 A. 5 to 12 feet. 20 Q. How far apart are you and I right now 21 sitting at this table? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. All right. 24 your hands? What's your wing span between BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 147 1 A. I don't know that. 2 Q. How tall are you? 3 A. About 5, 8. 4 Q. About 5, 8? 5 A. Approximately. 6 Q. Okay. Did you ever hear, ballpark, that 7 fingertip to fingertip if you put your arms out is 8 about the same as your height? 9 that? Did you ever hear 10 A. I don't think that applies to everybody. 11 Q. Is it pretty close for you? 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. Describe the gun for me. 14 A. I saw a revolver. 15 Q. How do you know it was a revolver? 16 A. Because it was rounded. 17 Q. What do you mean "rounded"? 18 A. You know, they have, like, the cylinder 19 where the bullets go into. 20 Q. And how does a revolver work? 21 A. I don't -- can you be more specific with 22 that? 23 Q. Do you carry a revolver? 24 A. No, sir, I do not. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 148 1 Q. Have you ever fired one? 2 A. No, I have not fired one. 3 Q. Okay. 4 5 Do you have any idea how a revolver works as opposed to an automatic? A. I know if you put the bullets in it and you 6 fire the revolver, it's not going to eject shell 7 casings. 8 rounds as a -- my weapon has a magazine. 9 multiple rounds in my magazine. 10 Q. And I understand that there's not as many All right. I have So if we have a hypothetical 11 automatic weapon, that's going to discharge casings 12 when it's fired; is that right? 13 A. I believe so, yes. 14 Q. And a hypothetical revolver, you know does 15 not discharge casings; is that what you're saying? 16 A. To the best of my knowledge, yeah. 17 Q. And this gun that we saw -- excuse me. 18 This gun that you say you saw in the car 19 that you can't say was attached to any hand happens 20 to be the kind of revolver that would not discharge 21 casings if someone had hypothetically fired this 22 hypothetical gun, right? 23 A. That's -- yes. 24 Q. All right. What color was it? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 149 1 A. Blue steel. 2 Q. What do you mean by "blue steel"? 3 4 5 6 Is it literally blue in color? A. Oh, no, not blue in color. Like a darker gray or blackish color. Q. Why do they call it blue steel? Or why do 7 you could it blue steel, I should say, if it's dark 8 gray or black? 9 A. That's just, I guess, the police lingo, 10 police jargon. 11 heard the most as far as, you know, describing 12 colors. 13 steel. 14 That's just, you know, what I've There's stainless steel. Q. Okay. There's blue So just so we don't have any mistake 15 in this case, you saw a gun. 16 actual color it was. I want to know what What color was it? 17 A. Blue steel. 18 Q. But you just told me that that's not really 19 the color blue. 20 question. 21 22 A. So now I'm asking a very simple What color was the gun? Like a darker grayish color, or it could be closer to even black depending on the make and model. 23 Q. Well, I wasn't there, so I don't know what 24 color it was. But now you've given me dark gray and BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 150 1 maybe even black depending on the model. 2 really want to know, sir, is -- I don't care what 3 model it was. 4 don't even care if it was a revolver that doesn't 5 happen to eject casings. 6 color it was. 7 A. I told you it was blue steel. 8 Q. Physically as your eyes look at it, it's not 9 blue, right? 10 A. No, it's not blue. 11 Q. What color is it? 12 A. I said it's like a grayish-blackish color. 13 Q. Pick one. 14 was it? 15 A. 16 What I I don't care what make it was. I I just want to know what What color was it? It's -- Which is it, gray, black? What I would say it's probably closer to the -- to a blacker color. 17 Q. When you say "it's probably closer" -- 18 A. Well, there's a difference if you look at 19 one that's actually black and one that's like blue 20 steel. 21 different. 22 23 24 There's a difference. Q. you. Okay. Their color is Well, that's kind of why I'm asking What color was this hypothetical gun? A. I just told you. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 151 1 Q. No, you didn't, actually. 2 A. I said it's -- 3 Q. -- but I need an actual color? 4 A. -- blue steel. 5 I'm sorry -- It was blue steel. I said it grayish-blackish in color. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. It is possible for a handgun to be, you 8 know, gray-black, because that's what I recall 9 seeing. 10 Q. All I want to know is about this 11 hypothetical handgun, not what some other possible 12 hypothetical handgun might be. 13 in the color of this hypothetical handgun was what 14 color? Your best description 15 A. Closer to a black color. 16 Q. So now it's not grayish. 17 It's just black. Is that right? 18 A. It's closer to a black color. 19 Q. Well, is it black, or is it kind of black? 20 21 22 Or how -A. Well, there's a difference between a blue steel and a black color. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. And it varies. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 152 1 2 3 4 5 Q. That's fine. And you're saying that this is closer to black? A. Yeah, but it's not -- it's not a solid, solid black color. Q. So it's not really blue steel because you 6 said there's a difference between blue steel and 7 black; is that right? 8 A. There is a slight difference, yes. 9 Q. So this is not really a blue steel gun that 10 you're talking about. It's more of a black gun; is 11 that right? 12 A. It's closer to black in color, sir. 13 Q. So as you sit here today now after 14 discussing the colors, you wouldn't really even call 15 this a blue steel because it's closer to black, 16 right? 17 A. That's just -- I mean, I think if you were 18 to go out and buy a gun, that's typically what they 19 refer to it as the coloring. 20 To answer your question specifically, no, it's not 21 blue, but that's what they refer to it as. 22 Q. Okay. 23 carry a weapon. 24 the gun. Is it blue in color? I'm not a police officer. I don't I'm just asking you what color is The gun that you say you saw that night, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 153 1 what color is it, sir? 2 A. It's closer to a black color. 3 Q. And when you say "closer to black," what do 4 you mean by that? 5 A. It's either black or it's not. I think it depends on your perception. 6 people might say it's like a dark gray color. 7 people might refer to it as black. 8 9 Q. What's your perception? A. can. 12 black-grayish kind of color. 13 what else you want me to say. 15 16 I stated that it was closer to black, like a Q. I don't -- I don't know I don't want you to say anything. I just want to know what color it is. A. But I'm trying to answer your question. 17 It's not black. 18 than black, and it's not gray. So it's not black. 19 Q. How big was the barrel? 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. Was it an extended barrel? 22 What is it? I answered that question I think the best I 11 14 Some Now, you've given us a bunch of different options here. 10 Some snub-nose barrel? It's lighter Was it a What kind of barrel was it? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. Did you ever see a 44 Magnum like Clint BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 154 1 Eastwood carries in the movies, a big long barrel? 2 A. I didn't -- I didn't think it was that big, 3 like Dirty Harry so to speak, but it was a revolver. 4 I couldn't tell you what size it was. 5 Q. Was it a tiny little barrel? I think they 6 call them in the movies a snub-nose, like a real tiny 7 barrel. 8 the barrel for me. 9 A. Or was it in the middle? It didn't look like -- it wasn't a gigantic 10 gun. 11 tell you what caliber it was. 12 how long the barrel was. 13 It wasn't a bazooka. Q. What -- describe All right. It was a -- I couldn't I can't tell you even I just know that I saw it. So we have a not blackish, not 14 grayish, not bluish gun with a barrel that you don't 15 know how long it was. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. All right. 18 Is that your best description? Any other qualities about this gun that you saw? 19 A. I don't recall right now, no. 20 Q. Did it have a different color handle on it? 21 Some revolvers might -- have you seen the old cowboy 22 shows? 23 color handle. 24 A. They might have a pearl handle or some other Anything else about it? I don't recall. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 155 1 Q. 2 detectives? 3 A. 4 of gun. 5 Q. 6 Did you have to describe the gun to any I don't recall describing exactly the type I don't recall. Did you tell anybody that you saw a gun that night? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Who did you tell? 9 A. I believe the detectives and the street 10 deputy. 11 Q. And what did you tell them you saw? 12 A. A handgun. 13 Q. Did you tell them anything about the 14 handgun: 15 color, size, anything? 16 17 A. the nature of it, what it looked like, I don't recall exactly. almost two years. 18 Q. You know, it's been I don't recall. You don't recall what you told them, or you 19 don't recall that you told them what kind of gun it 20 was? 21 A. I recall telling them that I saw a gun. 22 don't recall going into detail and specifics about, 23 you know, the kind of gun. 24 recall right now. I I may have. I just don't BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 156 1 Q. Did anybody ask you where is the gun? 2 A. I don't recall. 3 Q. Wouldn't that be kind of important? 4 A. Yes. 5 absolutely. 6 Q. Where is the gun? 7 A. Are you asking me? 8 Q. I'm asking you right now. 9 A. Well, I can give you my opinion. 10 Q. I just want to know if you know where the 11 gun is. 12 A. I can give you my opinion. 13 Q. Different question. 14 A. Mr. O'Connor, I can't tell -- 15 Q. Do you know -- 16 A. I can't tell you where the gun's at. 17 Q. Thank you. I think it's an important question, All right. Where is the gun? I can't -- 18 don't know if it's held by a hand. 19 next? You see a gun. You What happens 20 A. I heard gunshots. 21 Q. How many gunshots did you hear? 22 A. I heard two distinct gunshots. 23 Q. Had you ever heard gunshots before out in 24 the street? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 157 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Where did you hear them before? 3 A. City of Chicago. 4 Q. Under what circumstances? 5 A. Just multiple circumstances, you know, 6 7 people shooting at one another. Q. Have you ever fired your gun in the -- in 8 the line of duty prior to this occasion with 9 Mr. Castellanos? 10 A. No, I have not. 11 Q. All right. 12 A. I just told you, two. 13 Q. All right. How many gunshots did you hear? I heard two gunshots. And how far apart were they in 14 terms of seconds or minutes or whatever else you can 15 use as far as a measure of time? 16 A. It was one right after the other. 17 Q. So you say -- I want to make sure I get it 18 for the second version, the one that you want to go 19 with -- "let me see your hands" -- 20 A. "Chicago" -- 21 Q. -- you don't see his hands. 22 You don't know if it's held by a hand. 23 hear gunshots. 24 you hear the two gunshots? You see a gun. And then you How long after you saw the gun did BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 158 1 A. It was -- it all happened, you know, 2 simultaneously. 3 gunshots. 4 Q. I saw the gun. I heard the It was just like that. Well, when you say the gun and you heard the 5 gunshots simultaneously, did you see anything come 6 out of the gun? 7 8 9 10 A. I saw the glass being blown out of the vehicle. Q. So was this gun inside the vehicle or outside the vehicle when you saw it? 11 A. It was inside the vehicle. 12 Q. Were the windows up? 13 A. The driver's-side window was about halfway 14 up, yes. 15 Q. Okay. So the driver's-side window was 16 halfway up? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And when you saw the gun, was it below the 19 halfway mark -- in other words, behind the glass -- 20 or was it above the halfway mark where there was no 21 glass in the window? 22 23 24 A. No. It was -- I mean, when I saw the gun, it was inside the vehicle and it was below the glass. Q. So you were looking through the half of the BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 159 1 window, through that glass, to see the gun, or were 2 you looking over the halfway open window to see the 3 gun? 4 5 A. I wasn't looking over it. I can't tell you exactly my exact vantage point when I saw the gun. 6 Q. All right. Well, can you tell me, were you 7 looking through glass or through no glass when you 8 saw the gun? 9 A. The window was halfway down. 10 Q. I get it. 11 A. I'm trying to answer your question. 12 Q. Go ahead. 13 A. I can't tell you if I was looking above it 14 or below it. 15 gunshots, and I saw the glass being blown out of the 16 vehicle. 17 Q. I guess -- That's why I'm asking you. I just -- I saw the gun, heard the So you continued to look at the vehicle, 18 then, throughout seeing the gun and hearing the shots 19 and seeing the glass get blown out, or not? 20 21 22 23 24 A. Oh, this is happening very, very fast, and Q. Actually, you said it's happening I -- simultaneously. A. Which is happening fast. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 160 1 Q. That means at the same time. 2 A. Well, obviously there's a chronological 3 order here, Mr. O'Connor. 4 5 Q. It's the same time. 6 7 Not when they're simultaneous. A. There was one shot, then there was another shot, two distinct gunshots -- 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. -- and I saw the glass being blown out. 10 Q. Which shot blew out the glass? 11 A. Well, I believe it was the first one, but I 12 can't tell you for sure. 13 14 Q. When you say the glass was blown out, what do you mean by that? 15 A. Well, I saw the gun and I heard the 16 gunshots, and glass was being blown out of the 17 vehicle. 18 Q. Which window got blown out? 19 A. It was the -- I saw the driver's side, where 20 it was halfway down, I saw that glass being blown 21 out. 22 Q. Where did the glass end up? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. Was that the only window that you saw blown BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 161 1 out during those two shots getting fired, the 2 driver's-side window? 3 A. I don't understand the question. 4 Q. It's pretty simple. 5 window and a passenger's-side window. 6 7 A. No. It was only the driver's-side window, was the one I -- 8 9 There's a driver's-side Q. here. Let me just finish the question for you The only window that you saw blown out when 10 these first two shots you say you heard fired was the 11 driver's-side window of Mr. Castellanos's car; is 12 that correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. The passenger's-side window did not get 15 blown out during those first two shots that you 16 heard; is that correct? 17 18 19 20 A. I didn't see the passenger's-side window from my vantage point. Q. So you notice nothing about the driver's -- or the passenger's-side -- Strike that. 21 You notice nothing about the 22 passenger's-side window at the time you heard two, 23 what you believe to be, gunshots; is that right? 24 A. I don't -- no. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 162 1 Q. That's not right? 2 A. I did not see anything with the 3 4 passenger's-side window, no. Q. Thank you. The rear window on the driver's 5 side, did any of the glass get blown out with those 6 first two gunshots that you think you heard? 7 A. The rear window? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. No, not that I recall. 10 Q. All right. The passenger's-side rear 11 window, did any of that glass get blown out with 12 these first two, what you believe to be, shots you 13 heard? 14 A. Not that I recall. 15 Q. The rear window of the vehicle 16 Mr. Castellanos was in, did you see any glass blown 17 out when you heard these two first bullets that you 18 think were shot? 19 A. I -- I don't recall. 20 Q. You didn't notice anything about the back 21 window during what you believe to be the first two 22 shots, did you? 23 A. No. I was on the driver's side. 24 Q. And the driver's windshield, there was no BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 163 1 glass broken as a result of what you believe to be 2 the first two shots; is that correct? 3 4 A. I don't know. I never saw the driver's -- or the windshield. 5 Q. All right. From what you understand, all 6 the shots in all the other windows besides the 7 driver's-side window and driver's window specifically 8 were pieces of glass that were created by you and 9 your partner firing into the car; is that correct? 10 A. No. 11 Q. That's not correct? 12 A. No. 13 I don't -- I don't understand your question. 14 Q. Sure. The only glass that you believe you 15 saw broken as a result of what you believe to be the 16 first two shots you heard was the driver's-side 17 driver's window; is that correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Every other piece of glass in the car that 20 was shot in or out you believe occurred because of 21 you and your partner shooting at the vehicle; is that 22 true? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. Are you aware that they found bullet casings BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 164 1 at the scene? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Are you aware that the only bullet casings 4 that were found at the scene by your fellow police 5 officers and investigators are that of yourself and 6 your partner? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. All right. 9 10 11 12 13 How many bullets do you carry in one clip in your gun? A. I have a 17-round capacity with the magazines. Q. All right. So 17 rounds, is that one magazine, or is that two? 14 A. It's one magazine. 15 Q. All right. 16 And you fired how many bullets in this event? 17 A. I believe it was 15. 18 Q. Okay. And I also was under the impression 19 from reading some of these reports that you fired 20 into a second round -- or second magazine. 21 words, you used bullets out of a second magazine; is 22 that correct? 23 A. 24 Yeah, apparently. In other I don't recall doing it. But yes, I -- I did. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 165 1 Q. All right. So you shot bullets out of one 2 magazine, you pulled that magazine out of your gun, 3 put another one in and continued to fire? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Why? 6 A. I saw a threat. 7 Q. My question is why did you shoot out of two I was in fear -- 8 magazines instead of one. 9 you have 17 in one magazine, why did you use two 10 11 If you shot 15 bullets and magazines? A. It's called a tactical reload. I don't 12 recall doing it. 13 training at the firing range, it's one of the drills 14 that we do. 15 out of ammunition, you know, you drop the magazine 16 and you insert another magazine and get back on the 17 threat. 18 Q. 19 But, you know, when we go through You know, if you think you're running How many bullets did you fire out of the first magazine? 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. Did you ever ask when they found your 22 magazine how many bullets had been fired out of 23 there? 24 A. I was in shock, sir. I didn't ask. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 166 1 Q. It's been two years now. Have you ever 2 asked anybody how many bullets you fired out of the 3 first magazine? 4 A. I may have. 5 Q. Did you read any reports that told you about 6 I just don't recall. that? 7 A. I may have. 8 Q. Did you read the detectives' reports and 9 supplementary reports in this case? 10 A. I believe I did. 11 Q. All right. 12 What did they say about how many bullets you fired out of the first magazine? 13 A. I don't recall the specifics. 14 Q. How many bullets did your partner fire? 15 A. I believe he fired four. 16 Q. And do you know that because you heard them 17 or because you read about them, or how do you know 18 that? 19 A. I believe I read them somewhere. 20 Q. All right. 21 And how many bullets did you and your partner strike Mr. Castellanos with? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Did you ever follow up to find out where you 24 guys shot him? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 167 1 A. I may have read it somewhere. 2 don't recall. 3 Q. I just -- I Well, when you were at the scene, did you 4 look to see if Mr. Castellanos had been hit by 5 bullets that you and your partner fired in him? 6 A. I knew that he was hit. 7 Q. Where? 8 A. I didn't know where. 9 Q. How did you know he was hit? 10 A. I saw blood. 11 Q. Where? 12 A. On his face. 13 Q. Where else? 14 A. That's all I recall seeing as far as, you 15 I mean, I could -- know, when I went to cuff him. 16 Q. So one of you guys shot him in the head? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. Do you know who shot him in the chest? 19 A. No, sir, I don't. 20 Q. Do you know who shot him in the back? 21 A. I do not. 22 Q. You do know that the bullet in his head, his 23 chest, and his back came from you and your partner, 24 one or the other, right? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 168 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. How did the bullet get into his 3 chest? 4 shoot him in the chest? 5 6 A. Who was in front of the car firing at him to I didn't see anybody in front of the car. know I wasn't, and I don't believe my partner was. 7 Q. Okay. Was he turned to the side at all, or 8 was he throughout this event looking forward? 9 being Mr. Castellanos. "He" 10 A. At what point? 11 Q. Any point. 12 A. I mean, when I first observed him, he was 13 I facing forward, like I stated. 14 Q. Did he change positions? 15 A. Yeah. I mean, once the -- when I saw the 16 gun, I saw him look in our direction. 17 did the emergency handcuffing, he was looking 18 straight ahead again. 19 Q. And then as I So you only remember seeing him on three 20 different occasions as you sit here today: once 21 looking forward, once where he had his head to the 22 side out the passenger window, and then once looking 23 forward again when you handcuffed him after he was 24 shot? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 169 1 A. No. 2 tracking me. 3 then as well. 4 Q. As he was tracking me -- he was He was turning, so I saw him moving Was Mr. Castellanos looking towards you when 5 you were yelling at him, "Chicago Police, let me see 6 your hands"? 7 A. He looked in my direction, yes. 8 Q. Okay. 9 10 That's not uncommon when you yell a direction at a person that they might look to see who's yelling at me and what they're yelling, is it? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. Okay. Well, you expected him to somehow 13 acknowledge that you were there when you yelled. 14 "Chicago Police, let me see your hands," right? 15 A. I was hoping to see Mr. Castellanos's hands. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. That was my expectation. 18 Q. Okay. But it doesn't surprise you in the 19 least that someone would look your direction when you 20 yell that information; is that right? 21 A. No, it wouldn't. It wouldn't surprise me. 22 Q. So looking towards you, to the left, and 23 maybe following wherever you may have been moving at 24 that point in time, that is in no way, shape, or form BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 170 1 resisting arrest, is it? 2 MR. HURD: 3 4 Objection, calls for a legal conclusion. BY THE WITNESS: 5 A. I don't know, you know, what Mr. Castellanos 6 was thinking at that point in time. 7 answer that. 8 Q. 9 I mean, I can't I don't know. So if you stop somebody on the street and you tell them to do something and they look at you if 10 you're standing behind them, which you guys do all 11 the time when you pull people over and they look in 12 your direction, are they resisting somehow by looking 13 at you? 14 A. No, of course not. 15 Q. Okay. So Mr. Castellanos, if he looked to 16 the left, he may not be tracking you. 17 looking to see who's talking to him; isn't that true, 18 sir? 19 20 21 22 23 24 A. He may just be When he looked to the left, that's when I saw the gun come up. Q. Did you see the gun before you saw him look to the left or after? A. Well, I saw him look, then I saw a gun, then I heard the gunshots, and I saw the glass being blown BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 171 1 out. 2 Q. So when Mr. Castellanos -- as I understand 3 from what you just said, the first thing you noticed 4 about him was he looked to the left towards you, 5 right? 6 A. He looked in my direction, yes. 7 Q. All right. So when you use the word 8 "tracking," until you see a weapon you don't even 9 characterize that as tracking. That's just somebody 10 looking in your direction when you're talking to 11 them; isn't that right? 12 13 A. that point in time, but -- 14 15 I didn't think that he was tracking me at Q. Because you thought he was looking at you, right? 16 A. I thought he was trying to kill me. 17 Q. Before you even saw a gun you thought that? 18 A. Well, he looked, and then I saw a gun. 19 Q. All right. Well, I just want to make sure I 20 understand you. 21 yet and he looked to the left towards you, and you 22 said you thought at that point he's trying to kill 23 you? 24 A. No. You said you hadn't even seen a gun He looked left, and then I saw a gun. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 172 1 Q. Okay. So when -- I'm taking it step by 2 step. Mr. Castellanos looks to the left. At that 3 point in time you're not thinking anything other than 4 the guy's just looking at me because I'm yelling at 5 him, right? 6 A. I don't know what I was thinking at that 7 point in time. I -- he just -- you're slowing this 8 down, and that's just not how it happened, sir. 9 mean, he looked in my direction and I saw the gun. 10 It was one -- not even a second, not even a split 11 second. 12 Q. I You never saw any -- any bullets come out of 13 that gun. In other words, you never saw that weapon 14 specifically get discharged. 15 believed to be a gun, and you heard two -- two sounds 16 that sounded like a gunshot. 17 statement? 18 A. I did, yes. 19 two gunshots. 20 Q. All right. You saw what you Is that a correct I saw the gun. I heard two -- So as you sit here today, you 21 don't know -- those first two gunshots that you 22 heard, you don't know if those came from your partner 23 or from your own gun going off or from anybody else; 24 isn't that right? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 173 1 A. No. 2 Q. That's not right? 3 A. No, it's not right. 4 Q. All right. Do you have any idea if your 5 weapon discharged before you intended it to that 6 night? 7 A. Absolutely not. 8 Q. Do you know if and when your partner started 9 shooting his gun? 10 A. I don't recall. 11 Q. All right. So not recalling when your 12 partner started shooting his gun, having only heard 13 two shots and not contributing them directly to the 14 gun that you say you saw in the car because you 15 didn't see that gun discharge, it's possible that 16 those first two shots actually came from your 17 partner's gun; isn't that right? 18 A. I don't think it's possible. 19 Q. Is it impossible, in your opinion? 20 A. Well, based on what I know at this point, I 21 would say, yes, that's impossible. 22 Q. Why? 23 A. Because looking at where the shell casings 24 were, I don't think that that's possible. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 174 1 Q. What about the shell casings tell you that? 2 A. Well, where my partner's shell casings were, 3 4 5 I don't think that's possible. Q. Were there shell casings out by the driver's side of the car? 6 A. I believe there was. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. I'm sorry? 9 Q. Could that have been the first bullet fired? 10 A. Possibly. 11 Q. And if it was -- the shell casing that was Could that have been the fired first? 12 out by the driver's side of the car, if that was the 13 first bullet fired, then that may have been one of 14 the first two shots that you heard, right? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Why? 17 A. Because I heard two distinct gunshots before 18 19 I did anything. Q. I'm not talking about you specifically. 20 said -- you're telling me as you sit here today, it 21 sounds like, you didn't fire until after you heard 22 two gunshots; is that right? You 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. But you don't know if the first two BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 175 1 gunshots -- where they came from specifically, 2 because you didn't see them -- didn't see a weapon 3 discharge; is that right? 4 5 6 7 A. I saw the glass being blown out of the vehicle. Q. It could also be a gunshot hitting the glass, couldn't it? 8 A. But I didn't fire until after I saw the gun. 9 Q. There's another guy that we know at the 10 scene who actually did fire, 100 percent positive, 11 and that's your partner -- 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. -- is that right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So if your partner fired a gunshot, that 16 could also account for glass being blown out of the 17 vehicle, right? 18 A. But at which point are you referring to? 19 Q. It could be any of the shots could cause 20 glass to be -- to come out of the vehicle; isn't that 21 right, sir? 22 A. 23 24 Any bullet could actually, you know, break the window or cause the glass to be blown out, but -Q. Okay. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 176 1 2 A. -- I -- again, I saw a gun, I heard the gunshots, and I saw glass being blown out. 3 Q. But as you sit here today, you can't tell me 4 if the gun that you say you saw in the car was in 5 fact the gun that fired those first two shots; isn't 6 that correct, sir? 7 8 A. No, that's -- the gun that I saw was -- fired the first two shots. 9 Q. What did you see about that that verifies 10 that? I want to know specifically what you rely upon 11 for that. 12 A. The glass being blown out of the vehicle. 13 Q. Other than the glass being blown out, is 14 there anything else? 15 A. Anything else as far as ... 16 Q. That tells you that the gun that you saw in 17 the car, that you say you saw in the car, was the one 18 that fired the first two shots? 19 A. Is there any -- anything else? 20 Q. Yeah. 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. All right. So relying on that alone, that 23 the glass was blown out, if your partner 24 hypothetically shoots his gun at the car, could that BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 177 1 break the glass out? 2 A. It's a possibility. 3 Q. So not knowing when your partner started 4 shooting, not seeing the bullet discharge from the 5 gun that you think you saw in the car, if your 6 partner did fire at the car, he could have broken the 7 glass in the driver's-side window; isn't that right? 8 9 10 A. Well, I wouldn't say that's right. I would say that it's a possibility, but I don't think that that happened. 11 Q. Okay. But it is a possibility? 12 A. It's a possibility, I said that, sir. 13 Q. Let's assume that that's -- 14 (Short interruption.) 15 MR. O'CONNOR: He's taking a while here. 16 Why don't we take a break. 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 18 (A short break was had.) 20 22 23 24 We'll go ahead and we'll go off the record at 1:44 p.m. 19 21 All right. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: video record. We are now back on the The time is 1:57 p.m. Counsel? BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Have you ever -- have you ever heard the term -- before we -- BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 178 1 MR. O'CONNOR: 2 question and answer, if you don't mind? 3 4 May I just have the last (Record read as requested.) BY MR. O'CONNOR: 5 Q. If the first two shots came from your 6 partner's weapon as opposed to this gun that you say 7 you saw in the car that you can't identify as being 8 attached to anyone's hand, if that happened, then any 9 bullets you would have shot at Mr. Castellanos would 10 have been without him having fired anything at you 11 first; isn't that right? 12 MR. HURD: 13 14 Objection to the compound question. BY THE WITNESS: 15 A. Could you rephrase it for me? 16 Q. Sure. You told me it's possible that your 17 partner may have fired the first two bullets. 18 that's the case, you started firing right after that; 19 isn't that right? 20 that? 21 22 23 24 If You started shooting right after MR. HURD: Objection to the compound nature of the question. BY THE WITNESS: A. I -- I started to -- you're asking when I BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 179 1 shot first? 2 Q. Yeah. 3 A. After I saw the glass being blown out of the 4 5 vehicle. Q. And after -- you saw simultaneously the 6 glass, you heard the two, what you believe to be, 7 gunshots, right? 8 9 10 11 12 A. I head two gunshots, yes, and I saw the glass being blown out. Q. Simultaneously you heard and saw those things; is that right? A. I think I need to clarify this. It was -- 13 there was an order, okay? 14 gunshots, I heard two gunshots, and I saw the glass 15 being blown out. 16 17 Q. I say a gun, I heard the So -- Did you see the glass get blown out at the same time you heard the gunshots? 18 A. After it. 19 Q. How much after? 20 A. It was right after the gunshots. 21 Q. Like what kind of delay time between hearing 22 the gunshots and seeing the glass blown out? 23 A. It seemed right away. 24 exact time. I couldn't tell you BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 180 1 2 Q. So therein lies the simultaneous. When you hear the gunshot, you saw the glass blow out, right? 3 A. I guess that's possible. 4 Q. I'm not asking if it's possible. I'm asking 5 you what you saw. 6 difference in time, tell me. 7 gunshots and then you saw the glass go out. 8 see the glass blow out at the same time you heard the 9 gunshots or not? 10 A. happened. 12 being blown out. 13 same time. 15 Q. Did you I heard the gunshots, and I saw the glass Okay. To me it was all happening at the So if your partner shot those first two shots, then -- Well, strike that. 16 17 You said you heard two Well, I'm trying to give you the order it 11 14 Did you -- I mean, if there's a You started shooting in response to seeing the glass blown out and hearing the two gunshots -- 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. -- is that right? 20 A. No, sir. I started shooting in response to 21 a threat. I saw a gun, I heard two gunshots, and I 22 saw the glass being blown out. 23 Q. Did you then start shooting? 24 A. In addition -- in addition to that, I -- my BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 181 1 partner was telling me to get down, and that's when I 2 responded to a threat. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q. Did you start shooting after you saw the glass blown out and heard two gunshots? A. At some point I did. I just can't tell you exactly, you know, when that was. Q. How soon after you heard the two gunshots did you first fire your weapon? A. It was pretty close to right afterwards. just can't tell you an exact time. I don't recall. 11 Q. Was it as quickly as you could? 12 A. No. 13 Q. How much of a delay between hearing the I don't recall. I It happened very fast. 14 gunshots, the first two gunshots, seeing the glass 15 blown out simultaneously, did you begin shooting? 16 A. I don't recall. 17 Q. What's your best estimate? 18 A. Maybe -- I don't know, one to two seconds. 19 20 I don't recall. Q. All right. Well, if your partner fired off 21 those first two shots and not Mr. Castellanos, then 22 one or two seconds later you would have been opening 23 fire on a guy that didn't shoot at you; is that 24 correct? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 182 1 A. But that's not what happened. 2 Q. When you say "but," is that -- is that a 3 correct statement, that if your partner fired the 4 first two bullets and you fired back one second 5 later, would you have been firing on a guy that did 6 not shoot at you? 7 A. That's -- that's not what happened. 8 Q. I'm trying to save a little bit of time 9 10 here. You told me that it's possible that your partner fired the first two bullets, right? 11 A. Mm-hmm. 12 Q. You also told me that those first two 13 bullets happened at about the same time -- or at 14 least the first two sounds of gunfire, what you 15 believe to be gunfire, happened around the same time 16 that the glass broke. 17 far? Is that a correct statement so 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. So if it's possible that your partner fired 20 the first two shooting sounds and the glass broke and 21 then you shot back basically immediately a second or 22 two later, if your partner shot those first two 23 rounds, then you would have been shooting at 24 Mr. Castellanos, who may not have shot at you at all, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 183 1 right? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Okay. You heard your partner the other day 4 tell us that there was somebody else in the car. 5 you hear that? Did 6 A. I don't recall. 7 Q. Last week when you sat through -- I think 8 it's five hours of deposition per my notes with your 9 partner here, you don't recall hearing your partner 10 say that there was another guy in the car? 11 A. I don't recall him saying that, sir. 12 Q. Okay. 13 14 15 16 Was there another person in the car besides Mr. Castellanos that evening? A. I think it's very possible. I can't tell for certain, but I think it's very possible, yes. Q. Did you ever tell anybody that there may 17 have been another person in the car with 18 Mr. Castellanos? 19 20 21 A. No, because that would not be the truth. didn't see anybody else inside the vehicle. Q. Okay. Did you ever hear your partner tell 22 anybody that there may have been another guy inside 23 the car with Castellanos? 24 I A. I don't recall him saying that, no. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 184 1 Q. If you thought for any reason or if your 2 partner thought for any reason that there was another 3 individual in the car with Mr. Castellanos, would it 4 be your duty and obligation as well as your partner's 5 to report that to the detectives? 6 A. Absolutely. 7 Q. So if your partner had any reason to believe 8 there was another person in the car that evening, he 9 would be duty-bound to report that to the detectives; 10 is that right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. As would you? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And as you understand it, neither you or 15 your partner reported to the detectives that there 16 was another person in the car; is that correct? 17 A. We didn't report another person in the car 18 because we didn't see another person in the car. 19 What we saw -- or what I saw, I saw a gun. 20 you know, relay that to the detectives and the street 21 deputy when I did the walk through. 22 Q. All right. I did, And did the tell the street 23 detectives or the deputy where the gun was that you 24 saw? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 185 1 A. I told them that I saw a gun, you know, I 2 saw the -- you know, heard the gunshots, I saw the 3 glass being blown out of the vehicle. 4 that's what I told them, but I don't recall. 5 been -- it's been a while. 6 Q. I believe It's Did you hear your partner the other day in 7 his testimony say that the glass that you told him 8 was blown out of the vehicle when those first two 9 shots were fired was in fact the passenger's-side 10 window? 11 A. I don't recall that. 12 Q. You did not see the passenger's-side window 13 get shot out at any time that you know of; is that 14 right? 15 A. The passenger's-side window? 16 Q. Yeah, passenger door. 17 A. I don't recall. 18 Q. All right. There's some photographs that 19 show the passenger's seat with glass on the 20 passenger's seat itself. 21 that a bullet came from the outside if glass was 22 found inside on the front seat? Does that indicate to you 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. Did you ever do any investigation work as BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 186 1 a -- as a tactical officer? 2 A. I've -- yes, I have. 3 Q. Okay. So did you ever learn that if you're 4 looking for where bullets come from that you might 5 find that the glass blows one way or the other way? 6 7 8 9 A. That's -- I'm not an expert in -- I'm not an evidence technician, sir. Q. Okay. I didn't ask you that, though. I just asked you, did anybody ever tell you if you're 10 looking for glass and it's all in the front seat that 11 maybe the bullet came from the outside? 12 A. It's a possibility. 13 Q. How many bullets did you fire initially when 14 you first started shooting? 15 A. I don't recall. 16 Q. Did you look at a drawing that showed you 17 where all the bullet casings were found? 18 A. I've seen pictures, yes. 19 Q. And where did it indicate that you were 20 firing from? 21 A. It doesn't really indicate anything, sir. 22 It's when you -- when a round ejects, I mean, it 23 could go anywhere from, you know, 1 foot to 10 feet. 24 I can't tell you, you know, exactly where I was. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 I 187 1 do not recall. 2 lot of smoke. 3 things were happening very fast. 4 Q. It was dark that night. There was a It was a very stressful situation, and So you can't tell me if you were shooting 5 from behind another car or in front of another car 6 that was parked there? 7 A. I don't recall, sir. 8 Q. Did you ever see the thing that you believed 9 to be a gun at any point after you first saw it 10 unattached to anything that you could identify as a 11 hand? 12 A. I'm sorry. 13 Q. Sure. Could you rephrase that? You saw -- you told us you saw a gun. 14 You described various color descriptions. 15 you couldn't see whether there was a hand attached to 16 it. 17 believed to be that gun; is that right? That was one occasion that you saw what you 18 19 20 21 You said MR. HURD: Objection, compound question. BY THE WITNESS: A. I -- just so I understand, you're asking me if there was one time that I saw the handgun? 22 Q. Yeah. 23 A. Yes, I was -- when I was approaching the 24 vehicle. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 188 1 Q. How long did you see it for? 2 A. I don't recall. It was for a brief moment. 3 I was -- I was trying to get out of a way of a 4 threat. 5 Q. Is it possible that it wasn't a gun that you A. Sir, I saw a gun. 6 7 8 9 10 11 saw? saw glass being blown out. Q. So there is no possibility that what you saw was not a gun; is that correct? A. I saw a gun. I heard gunshots, and I saw 12 the glass being blown out. 13 could have been. 14 I heard gunshots, and I Q. I don't know what else it That's what I saw. All right. So again, there's no possibility 15 that it could have been something other than a gun 16 that you saw that evening; is that correct? 17 A. I -- I -- I don't know. 18 Q. How long did you and your partner shoot at 19 I saw a gun. Mr. Castellanos? 20 A. How long did we shoot at him? 21 Q. Yeah. You shot 19 bullets, 15 from you, 22 4 from your partner. 23 all those bullets at him? 24 A. How long did it take to shoot I don't know. It happened very fast. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 189 1 Q. 2 if you can. 3 A. 4 5 What does that mean? Give me a time frame, I can't give you an exact time frame. It was very, very fast. Q. All right. You had time enough to reload, 6 take your clip off, put another clip back in; is that 7 right? 8 A. That's right, but I don't recall doing that. 9 Q. But we know you did, right? 10 A. I believe so, yes. 11 Q. Well, nobody else used your clip in your 12 holster, did they? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Were you using a different kind of gun from 15 your partner? 16 A. I'm sorry? 17 Q. Were you using a different type of weapon 18 than your partner? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. So your ammunition would not work in your 21 22 23 24 partner's gun, is my point; is that correct? A. My ammunition, I believe, would have worked in his -- his firearm. Q. Okay. So do you know it was your two BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 190 1 magazines that were used in your weapon versus your 2 partner using another magazine plus his four bullets? 3 A. I don't understand your question. 4 Q. Sure. Your partner fired four bullets. We 5 hear that from the reports, and you've read the same 6 reports, right? 7 A. I've read some of the reports, yes. 8 Q. And some of the reports indicate you fired 9 10 15 bullets which came from two different magazines, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You're not disputing that, are you? 13 A. No, sir, I'm not. 14 Q. Okay. 15 How many bullets did you fire out of the first magazine? 16 A. I don't recall. 17 Q. How many bullets were found in the first 18 magazine at the scene, if you know, the one you had 19 discharged? 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. Where did you keep your second magazine? 22 Did you keep it on your belt, in your car? 23 A. On my duty belt. 24 Q. How long does it take for you to take a BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 191 1 magazine out of your weapon, grab another one, load 2 it back up in your weapon, and begin firing again? 3 A. I mean, obviously for me it's very quick, a 4 second. 5 Q. One second you can do all that? 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. I don't know. 8 A. Sure. 9 at the most. 10 Q. Okay. It's -- you know, it's -I'm just asking. I'd say approximately a second, two At some point in time you decide to 11 approach the vehicle again. 12 you the indication that you can approach the vehicle? 13 A. What happens that gives Mr. Castellanos -- I thought that the threat 14 had been neutralized. 15 and that's why I approached the vehicle. 16 17 18 19 He wasn't tracking me anymore, Q. So in other words, he stopped looking at A. I -- he wasn't -- his arms weren't extended. you? He wasn't -- he wasn't -- he wasn't tracking me. 20 Q. All right. You've used the word "tracking." 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And I've heard you use it a couple times. 23 And it sounds to me like tracking is when somebody 24 looks at you and, if you move a direction, they might BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 192 1 continue to follow you where you're moving -- 2 A. I can be -- 3 Q. -- with their eyes? 4 A. -- more specific. His arms were extended. 5 His arms were extended. 6 vehicle, I saw his arms extended. 7 8 Q. As I went around the How many times had you shot at him by that point? 9 A. I don't recall. 10 Q. Had you shot at him at all by that point? 11 A. I believe so, yes. 12 Q. Well, it'd have to be. Because if his arms 13 were extended and the window was up, he couldn't get 14 his arm extended; is that right? 15 A. I'm sorry. 16 Q. Sure. I don't understand the question. When you say Mr. Castellanos had his 17 arms extended, were they inside the vehicle or 18 outside? 19 A. His hands were inside the vehicle. 20 Q. That means his arms were as well? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. So how far can you extend your arms and 23 24 still be inside the vehicle? A. I don't know. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 193 1 Q. 2 of him? Where were you? 3 A. At what point? 4 Q. Any point. 5 A. Well, that's -- I mean, there was -- you 6 Were you behind him, next to him, in front know, I don't recall. 7 Q. All right. 8 on the driver's side. 9 him. 10 side. Well, you came up from the side You guys pulled up towards You got out of the driver -- or the passenger's 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You approached him. You would have been, 13 what, by the back door of his car on the driver's 14 side? 15 A. I was approaching the driver's-side door. 16 Q. Directly? 17 A. I was coming from an angle. 18 Q. What angle: 19 you approach? 20 A. from the back, 45, or how would I guess I don't recall, sir. It was dark. 21 I mean, I -- it wasn't -- I mean, obviously I didn't 22 go directly in line with the vehicle, if that's 23 what -- 24 Q. Fair enough. So you're not coming directly BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 194 1 to the side of Mr. Castellanos? 2 A. No, sir, I'm not. 3 Q. You're coming more towards the back of his A. I'm coming from an angle. 4 car? 5 I wouldn't say I 6 was coming from the back when I exited the vehicle, 7 no. 8 9 Q. Would you come from a 45-degree angle from his driver's door? 10 A. 11 just know -- 12 Q. 13 on the angle? 14 A. Again, I don't know if it was -- 15 Q. Would it be more towards the front of his A. I don't know, sir. 16 17 20 21 22 23 24 I Would it be more towards the back of his car car? 18 19 I don't know what angle it would be, sir. MR. HURD: You've got to let him finish his answer. BY THE WITNESS: A. I don't recall. I can tell you it wasn't a direct line because I had to exit my vehicle. Q. Okay. And because you had to exit your vehicle, you're using that as a basis for telling me BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 195 1 how you approached it; is that right? 2 A. I'm not using anything as a basis, sir. I'm 3 just trying to help you understand how I was coming, 4 you know, at Mr. Castellanos's vehicle, and I just 5 don't recall what particular angle it was. 6 know it wasn't directly in line with it. 7 Q. I just Well, at some point in time when you saw 8 this hypothetical gun, where were you at in 9 relationship to him? 10 A. I was on the driver's side in between, you 11 know, our vehicle and his vehicle. 12 was, I don't recall. 13 Q. Exactly where I Were you right in line with his driver's 14 door, or were you more towards his back door? 15 you more towards his back quarter panel? 16 you? 17 A. I don't recall. Were Where were I can tell you that I 18 definitely wasn't, like, directly in line with it, 19 but I couldn't tell the exact angle. 20 Q. Okay. Well, if you're not directly in line, 21 that means you can't see straight in the window; is 22 that right? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Well, if you're on an angle, it changes your I can still see in his window. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 196 1 view looking in through the window, doesn't it, sir? 2 A. 3 was at. 4 Q. I didn't ask you that. 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. If you change your angle, it changes your 7 8 9 10 11 I could see inside the vehicle from where I view through the window; is that right? A. I could still see Mr. Castellanos inside the vehicle. Q. Does it change your angle -- if you change your angle, does it change your view into the car? 12 A. I guess it's possible. 13 Q. Okay. 14 making it up. 15 in that direction, you have a different viewpoint 16 than if you're coming from the other angle, right? Well, I mean, it's not -- I'm not If you go from one side and you look 17 A. Yes. I mean, it's possible. 18 Q. All right. You don't know where you were in 19 relationship to Mr. Castellanos's vehicle when you 20 first saw what you believe to be a gun, or do you? 21 A. I can tell you for a certainty that I was in 22 between his vehicle and my vehicle. 23 that, you know, I saw a gun. 24 Q. I can tell you Where were you in relationship to his car, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 197 1 2 is what I'm asking. A. I was in between his vehicle and my vehicle. 3 I would have been to -- obviously west, to the west, 4 driver's-side door. 5 6 Q. Okay. Are you northwest, southwest, directly west? 7 A. I can't tell you the exact -- 8 Q. So you can't tell me whether you were 9 northwest of him, you can't tell me if you were 10 simply directly west of Mr. Castellanos, and you 11 can't tell me if you were southwest of 12 Mr. Castellanos; is that correct? 13 14 15 A. What I'm trying to say is I just -- I don't recall my specific angle. Q. That's all I'm asking you, is can you -- as 16 you sit here today, can you tell me were you to the 17 northwest of him, directly west of him, or southwest 18 of him when you saw what you say is a gun? 19 A. 20 been -- 21 Q. 22 I would say in an estimation, I would have I don't want to you estimate. I want you to tell me -- 23 A. Well, I can't give you -- 24 Q. -- what you know or don't know. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 198 1 A. Well, I've told you this question, 2 Mr. O'Connor. 3 Q. I don't know. All right. It was dark that night. So when you say that you saw 4 Mr. Castellanos's arms extended, were you directly 5 west of him, were you northwest of him, or were you 6 southwest of him? 7 him? 8 9 10 11 12 A. Or were you all the way behind Again, I don't recall exactly, you know, west, southwest. It was somewhere -- somewhere in that location. Q. Well, let's use -- let's use the car for different terms, if that's easier. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. Are you by his back door? Are you by his 15 back quarter panel on the driver's side? 16 you when you see Mr. Castellanos's arms extended? 17 A. Where are I never said that I saw his arms extended at 18 that point in time. 19 gunshots when, you know, I was approaching the 20 vehicle after I exited the car. 21 his arms extended is -- is as I was coming up from 22 the ground after I heard the gunshots. 23 24 Q. I saw a gun, and I heard the The time that I saw Where were you in relationship to him when you saw his arms extended? I'm not -- this isn't BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 199 1 complicated. 2 time, where were you at? 3 4 A. I'm just asking you at that point in I was in the parkway, I believe, or somewhere in between the parked cars. 5 Q. I don't know. So you don't know if you're west of him, 6 southwest of him, behind a car, in front of a car? 7 Give me some specifics here. 8 9 10 A. know. It was dark that night. I just don't Things were happening so fast, I can't tell you exactly where I was, sir. 11 12 It was -- I can't be specific. Q. So what do you -- how do you know so specifically that his arms are extended? 13 A. Well, because when I started -- when I got 14 up off the ground, he was tracking me. 15 arms extended. 16 Q. Where? 17 A. When I went around the tree. 18 Q. No, I understand. 19 arms? 20 his left. I saw his Where were they extended? Where did he extend his He's sitting in a chair. He's got a door on 21 A. He was twisting and turning. 22 Q. He's got a steering wheel in front of him. 23 24 Where were his arms extended? A. Show me. I saw him go back, looking back this way. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 200 1 2 Q. And that's extending his arms, as you're showing us right there? 3 A. I could see him doing that. I could see -- 4 I could see that, you know, he was holding an object, 5 a dark object. 6 Q. You're moving your arms as you're sitting 7 here today. 8 his arms? Is that what you're saying is extending 9 A. Well -- 10 Q. Show me what you saw. 11 A. Okay. 12 that. I don't know what you would consider I saw him moving. I saw a dark object. 13 Q. Did you see his arms extended or not? 14 A. Not at that point, sir. 15 Q. When did you see his arms extended? 16 A. As I tried to explain this to you earlier, 17 as I went around the tree because I was looking for 18 cover, that's when I saw Mr. Castellanos with his 19 arms extended and tracking me. 20 21 Q. So how many bullets had been fired at this point in time? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Had you fired already? 24 A. Yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 201 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. How long after you saw the gun did you see 4 Had you hit him? arms extended? 5 A. I -- to be specific -- you know, I saw him 6 moving initially this way, but the arms extended is 7 when I moved for cover in another -- when I went 8 around the tree, that's when I saw his arms extended. 9 10 Q. All right. I just want to make sure I understand this. 11 A. Sure. 12 Q. You saw a gun that you can't say anybody's 13 hands were attached to. 14 when you saw that gun? 15 doing? What was Castellanos doing Show me what you saw him 16 A. At what point? 17 Q. When you saw the gun, what was Castellanos 18 doing? 19 20 A. gun. I saw him look in my direction. I saw the I heard the gunshots. 21 Q. Where were his arms, from what you saw? 22 A. I was focused on the gun, sir. 23 24 I don't know what he was -- where his arms -- I don't know. Q. So you didn't see his arms? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 202 1 A. When I saw the gun? 2 Q. That's correct. 3 A. When I first saw the gun -- 4 Q. -- you did not see Mr. Castellanos's arms; 5 6 7 8 9 When you saw the gun -- is that correct? A. I saw the gun. I seen his shoulder. Q. I can't say that -- I mean, I saw a gun come up. When you saw the gun, you did not see Mr. Castellanos's arms; is that correct? 10 A. I don't recall. 11 Q. All right. When you said Mr. Castellanos 12 had turned to the side, is that a separate occasion 13 that he's turning to the side when you're telling him 14 "show me your hands" or "police," or when did he turn 15 to the side? 16 A. 17 As I exited the vehicle, I was giving him, you know, verbal commands. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. I was announcing my office. 20 Q. And is the one and only -- 21 A. I was saying -- I was saying, "Chicago 22 Police, let me see your hands." I said it multiple 23 times. 24 Mr. Castellanos look in my direction, and then I saw As I was approaching the vehicle, okay, I saw BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 203 1 a gun. 2 3 Q. Is that the one and only time you saw Mr. Castellanos look in your direction? 4 A. No. 5 Q. When else did he look in your direction? 6 A. After I dove for cover and I came up, I saw 7 him looking and twisting and turning in the vehicle. 8 9 Q. Okay. And when you say looking, twisting, and turning, where were his arms? 10 A. I don't recall. 11 dark object in his hands. 12 where his arms were. 13 me. I mean, I said that I saw a I don't recall exactly Something was being pointed at 14 Q. Where were his hands? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Well, if you saw a dark object in his hands, 17 you had to see them somewhere. Did you? 18 A. I don't -- I don't understand your question. 19 Q. All right. Well, you told me you saw him 20 twisting and turning. You told me you saw a dark 21 object. 22 Where's the dark object? You don't know where his hands were. 23 A. Inside the vehicle. 24 Q. Where? What part of the vehicle? Where is BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 204 1 it at? 2 A. 3 window. 4 Q. 5 object? 6 A. I saw a threat. 7 Q. I'm sorry? 8 A. I saw a threat. 9 Q. No, I'm asking about the dark object. 10 did you see? 11 A. I saw a dark object. 12 Q. What was it? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. What was it doing? 15 A. I -- at that point I was -- I heard my 16 Q. And what did you see about this dark What I appreciate all these extraneous details. I just asked you what was the dark object doing. 19 20 Okay. partner yelling to me, you know, that he was hit. 17 18 That would be, I guess, the driver's-side A. Sir, I don't know. It was being pointed at me, and I perceived that to be a threat. 21 Q. What do mean -- 22 A. After -- 23 Q. What do you mean it was being pointed at 24 you? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 205 1 2 A. I saw something, a dark object, being pointed at me. 3 Q. With what? 4 A. Well, I thought it was Mr. Castellanos 5 What was pointing it? pointing a dark object at me. 6 Q. You didn't see his hands, though? 7 A. I can't tell you for certain that it was his 8 9 10 hand. Q. You can't tell me what the dark object is either, can you? 11 A. No. 12 Q. And so you can't tell me what the dark 13 object is. 14 at you by a hand. 15 Castellanos's hand. 16 17 A. You can't tell me if it was being pointed You can't tell me if it was Is that correct so far? Yes, I don't recall. Things were happening very fast. 18 Q. Did you say anything to him? 19 A. After my initial verbal commands? 20 Q. At that point in time when you -- when you 21 see this dark object, you don't see any hands, you 22 have no idea what's holding the dark object up or 23 what it is, did you say anything to the guy? 24 A. Mr. O'Connor, I never had chance. I was in BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 206 1 fear for my life. These things are happening -- 2 Q. All you need to say is yes or no. 3 A. I'm trying to answer your question, sir. 4 did not have a chance. 5 I was in fear for my life. 6 shot. 7 Q. Okay. This is happening very fast. I thought my partner was Verbal skills are taught to you in an 8 emergent situation, I'm assuming; is that correct, 9 sir? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. 12 I So you're supposed to tell people what to do so you can control the situation, true? 13 A. Sir, I thought I was in a gunfight. 14 Q. I didn't ask you that. Are you taught to 15 teach -- to make verbal directions to control the 16 situation? 17 A. And I was trying to do that, sir. 18 Q. Aside from the two commands that you told me 19 about earlier, did you say one word to Castellanos at 20 any time through this? 21 22 A. I never had a chance. I was in fear for my life. 23 Q. You say you saw an object? 24 A. Yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 207 1 2 Q. All right. Is this when you say arms extended or not when you say arms extended? 3 A. Not when I saw the arms extended. 4 Q. So at some point later you saw arms 5 extended? 6 A. It was immediately afterwards. I saw his 7 arms extended after I came up off the ground and I 8 was moving for cover. 9 Q. What happened with the dark object? 10 A. At what point? 11 Q. You saw a dark object. 12 at it for what reason? 13 it? You stopped looking When did you lose sight of What were you doing? 14 A. I just told you. 15 Q. Dove for cover? 16 A. I was looking for cover. 17 Q. Okay, looking for cover. 18 So you took your eyes off the dark object and looked for cover? 19 A. I was trying to get away from a threat, sir. 20 Q. All right. 21 So then you -- at some point you looked back again? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What did you see? 24 A. And that's when I saw his arm extended. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 208 1 Q. You don't see a dark object at that point? 2 A. No, I did not. 3 Q. Okay. 4 When you see the arms extended, did you see one arm or two arms? 5 A. 6 of his arms. 7 Q. Where and how was he extending his arms? 8 A. As he was tracking me, he was twisting and 9 10 11 To me it looked like he was extending both That's what I -- turning, and I saw his arms extended as I was moving for cover. Q. Okay. You're moving to the right there as 12 you're looking at me right now. 13 doing? Is that what he was 14 A. Who was doing? 15 Q. Mr. Castellanos. 16 A. Well, I guess in his positioning he would 17 have been turning toward the right, toward me. 18 Because at this point I was kind of in the parkway 19 behind a vehicle. 20 21 22 23 24 Q. So you were behind his vehicle. You were, in other words -A. As I was looking for cover, at one point in time I was, yes. Q. So you would have been south of BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 209 1 Mr. Castellanos's vehicle? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. All right. And you said that you saw 4 Mr. Castellanos's arms extended, and you said now he 5 would have been turning to the right, which would be 6 east? 7 8 A. that's -- yeah. 9 10 Yeah, he was turning to the -- yeah, Q. All right. And what was -- what was he doing with his arms? 11 A. I perceived a threat, and they were -- 12 Q. I just asked what he was doing with his 13 arms. 14 A. They were extended. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. And he was turning toward -- toward me. 17 Q. So he was turning to the right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. A. I just know he was turning. 20 21 22 Doing what? Had he turned all the way to the east yet? I don't know exactly how far he turned. 23 Q. Where were you looking at him from? 24 A. The back, the south of the vehicle. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 210 1 Q. So were you looking through the back window? 2 A. I saw his silhouette through the back 3 window, sir. 4 Q. 5 So had you already blown out the back window with bullet fire? 6 A. I -- I do not recall. 7 Q. So was the window there or not there at that 8 point? 9 10 A. I -- I think the window was still intact, yeah. 11 Q. Was it shattered? 12 A. The back window? 13 Q. Yeah. 14 A. I don't think the back window was shattered. 15 Was it shattered? Was it clear? I think there were bullet holes in it, though. 16 Q. Okay. So were there bullet holes in the 17 back window by that point in time obstructing your 18 view of the person in the car, or was it a clear 19 view? 20 A. I wouldn't say it was a clear view because I 21 do recall the windows were tinted. There were holes 22 in the window. 23 know, turning with his arms extended tracking me 24 because of the spotlights that were being pointed at And I could see Mr. Castellanos, you BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 211 1 the car. 2 silhouette turning, and his arms were extended. 3 Q. So I could see him turn. I could see his When you see Mr. Castellanos's silhouette, 4 that means his eyes hadn't come around back towards 5 you because you would have seen his face? 6 A. I saw his whole body turning, I mean. 7 Q. My point is, he didn't get around to 8 actually see you when you're looking at him in the 9 back window there -- 10 A. I -- 11 Q. -- because he hadn't made the full turn yet; 12 is that right? 13 A. I couldn't -- I honestly -- I don't know. 14 Q. Okay. So as far as tracking, not tracking, 15 looking to the left, looking to right, maybe being 16 scared to death, you don't know what he was doing; 17 isn't that right? 18 A. I thought he was trying to kill me. 19 Q. My point is, you were trying to kill him, 20 and he may have just been scared and looking around 21 like what's going on, right? 22 A. Can you ask that again, please? 23 Q. Sure. 24 You're talking about somebody tracking because they're moving their head basically, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 212 1 2 right? A. Yes -- no, no, no, no. 3 the head. 4 His arms are extended. 5 6 Q. It's his body. Okay. No, sir, not just He's twisting and turning. You're talking about a guy that you're shooting 19 bullets at, right? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. I'm sorry, 15. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. You shot 15? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. And your partner shot 4? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. 4 plus 15 is 19 bullets. 15 A. Yes, but I didn't shoot -- 16 Q. -- we agree on that? 17 THE COURT REPORTER: 18 time. 19 BY MR. O'CONNOR: 20 21 I didn't shoot -- Q. Wait. Please, one at a 4 plus 15 equals 19 bullets. Can we agree on that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. All right. 24 Can -- You're talking about a guy who is basically under a barrage of gunfire from two guys BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 213 1 shooting at him that he's never met before. 2 the scene that is happening to him if you put 3 yourself in his chair, right? That's 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. Would it surprise you if a guy who's sitting 6 in a chair being shot at that many times, that he 7 would look around to find out what's going on? 8 A. No, that wouldn't surprise me. 9 Q. Okay. When you say you saw some hands 10 extended at that point in time that you just 11 described, what were the hands -- or arms extended, 12 excuse me, what were his hands doing? 13 see them? 14 A. Could you even I just -- I couldn't tell you I saw -- I 15 specifically saw his hands. 16 remember -- I just remember him twisting and turning 17 with his arms extended, and I perceived it as a 18 threat and I continued to fire to neutralize the 19 threat. 20 Mr. Castellanos. 21 Q. I don't recall. I just I did not want -- I did not want to kill And when you say that you saw him with his 22 arms extended and you can't see his hands, that means 23 you have no idea if he had a weapon at that point in 24 time; is that correct? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 214 1 A. I saw a gun when I saw the glass being blown 3 Q. That's earlier. 4 A. I understand that, sir, but I'm trying to 2 out. 5 help you understand that, okay, this is happening in 6 seconds. 7 I ever want to do is be in a shootout. 8 I heard the gunshots. 9 out. 10 life. 13 14 The last thing I saw a gun. I saw the glass being blown I saw him tracking me. 11 12 This isn't a minute or so. MR. O'CONNOR: I was in fear for my Move to strike as nonresponsive. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. My question to you, sir, is if you didn't 15 see his hands, then you have no idea at that point in 16 time that he had a weapon or not; is that correct? 17 A. No, that's not correct. 18 Q. Did Mr. Castellanos specifically have a gun 19 in his hand when you saw him turn to the right and 20 his arms extended, yes or no? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. Thank you. 23 24 Did you ever get shot with a bullet that night? A. I don't know. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 215 1 Q. 2 that night? 3 A. 4 Did you claim to have been hit by a bullet I relayed that I thought that I was hit to the detectives. 5 Q. What made you tell them that? 6 A. There were bullet holes in my vest. 7 Q. And had those been from prior stuff on the 9 A. They weren't there prior to the incident. 10 Q. Where did the bullet holes come from? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. Were they tested? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. Did you have to give your vest, turn it in 15 to somebody? 16 A. I did turn my vest in. 17 Q. Did they determine that you were actually 8 18 job? shot? 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. Nobody ever told you that there was a 21 determination made that you had no bullet holes in 22 your vest? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. Did you ever ask anybody about that? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 216 1 A. Well, they still have my vest. 2 Q. Did you ever ask anybody what they found? 3 A. I don't know. 4 I don't -- no, I didn't ask anybody what they found. 5 Q. 6 that night? 7 A. It's very possible. 8 Q. Did you ever ask your partner if he shot 10 A. No, I never asked my partner. 11 Q. Is that possible given where you guys were 9 All right. Were you in fact hit by a bullet you? 12 located, that maybe he shot you or a bullet 13 ricocheted off the car at you? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Did your partner claim to have been hit by 16 any bullets? 17 A. He told me twice that he was hit. 18 Q. Was he? 19 A. At that point in time, I didn't know. 20 Q. Two years later, was your partner shot by 21 any bullets? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Well, you do remember sitting here just a 24 week ago listening to your partner testify, where he BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 217 1 admitted under oath that in fact he was not shot by 2 any bullets, and you sat here and listened to it; 3 isn't that right? 4 5 6 7 A. I was here, sir. I just -- I don't recall. It was a long day. Q. I'm going to show you a few photographs, if I may. 8 A. Sure. 9 Q. You and your partner were photographed at 10 the police station after this occurrence; is that 11 right? 12 A. 13 Yes, sir. MR. O'CONNOR: 14 a group. 15 No. 3, I believe, for today. 16 this as Group Exhibit No. 3, I'll get a 17 paperclip on these in a moment. 18 19 Okay. I'll probably just do this as Let's do this as Group Exhibit I'm going to mark BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Sir, I'm just going to ask you -- I'm going 20 to stand here just for a moment, if I may, just so we 21 can get some of these on the video. 22 MR. O'CONNOR: And I'll just ask you, sir, 23 if you're able to see these on the video screen 24 as well. You nodded, we're good. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 218 1 2 BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Okay. Sir, you see this has been marked as 3 Exhibit No. 3 today. 4 here, 1200, this particular photograph; is that 5 correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. All right. There's a number on the bottom That's a photograph of one of 8 you two gentlemen that was taken at the scene, and I 9 believe it's actually your partner, Mr. Martinez; is 10 that right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. The next photograph also shows him from 13 behind? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You see in the first photograph, 1200, that 16 there's a little dirt on his right knee -- 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- is that right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. 1201 shows your partner from behind. 21 No apparent anything of note; is that right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. 1203, again a shot of your partner from the 24 front; is that correct? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 219 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. These were taken shortly after the 3 4 occurrence; is that right? A. Well, the incident happened at 3:00 in the 5 morning, and these are at 12:00. 6 a difference there. 7 8 Q. Okay. Well, not a lot of healing time anyway, nine hours maybe, right? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. All right. 11 12 13 14 So there's a bit of MR. HURD: 1277 -1227. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. I'm sorry, 1227. My fault. 1227, one of you guys got a scratch on your knee; is that right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. That matches up with the dirty spot on 17 Mr. Martinez's right knee on his jeans, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You later learned that that came from him 20 diving to the ground; is that correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. The hands, a scratch on the right hand 23 24 there? MR. HURD: 1225. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 220 1 BY MR. O'CONNOR: 2 3 Q. On 1225. Is that your partner's hands or yours? 4 A. I believe that's my partner. 5 Q. All right. 6 And those are scratches that he got from diving on the ground, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Your partner's head here on 1223, it looks 9 like his ear's got a little red spot there. Is 10 that -- is that what he told you was where he got 11 shot in the head? 12 A. Well, when this was happening, I saw -- 13 excuse me -- I saw -- I did see blood on the side of 14 his head, and I saw him grabbing the side of his 15 head. 16 17 Q. is on his ear; is that right? 18 19 So the same part where that little red spot A. I believe that's an abrasion or a cut of some type, but yes. 20 Q. So that was what he had indicated to you -- 21 a little closer shot in 1222, somewhere around here 22 is where he said he was shot? 23 24 A. Yes. Well, he told me he was hit, "I'm hit." BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 221 1 2 Q. All right. And this is after he got out of the hospital, so there's no Band-Aids or anything? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. 1228, same hand and knee, so that's your 5 partner, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. That's his watch? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Again, 1229, again that's your partner 10 showing his knee and his hand, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Same dirty spot on his jeans in 1230, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Now we have a photograph of you in 1217; is 15 16 that correct, sir? A. Yes. 17 MR. HURD: 18 THE WITNESS: 19 MR. HURD: 20 12 ... 1217. Okay. Sorry. BY MR. O'CONNOR: 21 Q. 1217, no obvious problems there, right? 22 A. No. 23 Q. All right. 24 from behind. 1218, that's a picture of you Everything looks good, right? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 222 1 A. Mm-hmm. 2 Q. 1219, another picture of you from behind, 3 true? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. No problems, no marks, nothing, right? 6 A. I don't see nothing, no. 7 Q. All right. 8 1220, nothing noted as any injuries being photographed; is that true? 9 A. Just looks like the knee. 10 Q. You got a little dirt on the left knee 11 there? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. Same again, 1221, just a more distant shot. 14 It shows a little dirt on your knee; is that right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now it shows 1245. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. The dirt spot? 19 A. I think the pant leg is ripped open. 20 Q. Okay. 21 1239. 22 it? Is this your jeans here? Now we get to your knee, I guess, in Is that your knee with the little red spot on 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. It's not bleeding, is it? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 223 1 A. No. It's just bruising. 2 Q. 1240, is that another picture of the same 3 bruise? 4 A. Yeah, forearm. 5 Q. Now that we can see it a little clearer. Maybe it's a forearm. 6 And now we see if for sure. It solves the mystery. 7 1241, you got a little bruise on your wrist; is that 8 right? 9 A. Forearm, lower forearm, yes. 10 Q. 1242, there's a -- like a gauze thing. 11 What's that about? 12 A. I ripped my knee open diving for cover. 13 Q. You ripped your knee open? 14 A. Yeah. 15 I was missing a bunch of skin on my knee, tore my knee open. 16 Q. Did you get any stitches? 17 A. No. Q. Just the gauze, okay. 18 19 20 It was just the gauze. They wrapped it. But no stitches to repair anything; is that right? 21 A. I'm sorry? 22 Q. No stitches to repair anything? 23 A. No stitches. 24 MR. O'CONNOR: Did I miss anything, Matt? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 224 1 MR. HURD: Pardon me? 2 MR. O'CONNOR: 3 MR. HURD: Did I miss anything? No. I just wanted to get the 4 rest of these numbers. 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 6 Videotape No. 3. 7 it 2:39 p.m. This will now conclude We're going off the record at 8 (WHEREUPON, a lunch break was had 9 from 2:39 p.m. until 3:24 p.m.) 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now back on the 11 video record at 3:24 p.m. 12 No. 4 of the deposition of Officer Shawn Lawryn 13 taken on February 10th, 2015. 14 15 This is Videotape Counsel? BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Sir, when you sat here last week and heard 16 your partner tell us about how he dove for cover or 17 dove on the ground, did you get an understanding in 18 your mind that that's something that you saw happen, 19 or did you not see that happen? 20 21 22 23 24 MR. HURD: Objection to the compound nature of the question. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Let me make it simple. Did you see your partner dive and roll on the ground at all? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 225 1 A. 2 ground. 3 Q. 4 I saw him dive. Okay. Was your partner -- where was your partner in relationship to you when that happened? 5 A. Diving? 6 Q. Yeah. 7 I didn't see him hit the When you saw him dive, where was he in relationship to you? 8 A. He was -- would have been north, north of 10 Q. So you were south of him? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. All right. 9 13 14 me. Did you at any time collide with your partner while you were out there at the scene? A. I wouldn't say collide. I went over the -- 15 I recall going over the back of his legs when I was 16 diving for cover. 17 18 Q. And when did you dive in relationship to your partner dove? 19 A. 20 before I was. 21 Q. 22 23 24 It was after him. He was diving first, And then how long after your partner dove did you perform your dive? A. It was shortly thereafter. I don't know exactly how long it was. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 226 1 Q. Did you come in contact with your partner in 2 relationship to your diving to the ground? 3 what caused you to go to the ground or -- Was that 4 A. No. I meant to dive for cover. 5 Q. And when you -- when you came in contact 6 with your partner, did you stumble over your partner 7 or fall over your partner? 8 9 A. I just remember that I -- you know, when I dove, we made contact, but he was already on the 10 ground. 11 Q. All right. So now I want to make sure I 12 understand, because I thought you said they're two 13 separate events. 14 contacted your partner, or did you dive at one 15 occasion and also stumble over your partner on 16 another occasion? 17 18 19 20 A. When you dove, is that when you I never made contact with my partner. I just recall hitting his legs when I hit the ground. Q. Okay. So you don't recall stumbling over your partner, Officer Martinez, at any time? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Okay. 23 had been hit? 24 A. I don't recall stumbling over him, no. Did you yell to your partner that you No, sir, I did not. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 227 1 2 Q. And at any time were you south of your partner or north of your partner during this event? 3 A. 4 ground? 5 Q. Are you referring to when we were on the Yeah, or otherwise when you were shooting at 6 Mr. Castellanos. At any time did you -- in other 7 words, you come out of the car on the right side of 8 the car, the passenger's side. 9 south side of the vehicle, right? That would be the 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Your partner is on the north side of the 12 vehicle, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. So did you stay basically south of your 15 16 partner throughout this event? A. I don't recall where -- where I ended up 17 after we were diving for cover. 18 south or who was north, I don't recall. 19 Q. I don't know who was Would you have told the investigators -- if 20 they had mentioned you saying that you were moving 21 south, that would have come -- you would have told 22 them the best thing that you understand is true at 23 that time, right? 24 A. I don't recall what I -- what I said to BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 228 1 them. 2 Q. Okay. Would you have made your best efforts 3 to tell the truth to the investigators when they 4 interviewed you? 5 A. Absolutely. 6 Q. Your answers to interrogatories say that 7 words that you said to Mr. Castellanos -- you 8 prefaced it or couched in the terms "words to the 9 effect of." And I'm just wonder why you had done 10 that. Your answers to interrogatories are marked as 11 Martinez Exhibit No. 3. 12 MR. HURD: 13 Exhibit No. 4. 14 Why don't we mark them as Lawryn MR. O'CONNOR: I can mark it again if you 15 want. 16 because I have another 4 that I'm going to show 17 you in a minute. 18 this as Lawryn No. 5. 19 Actually, I'm going to mark it as No. 5 So I'll put another sticker on BY MR. O'CONNOR: 20 Q. All right. I'm going to show you what's 21 marked as Lawryn No. 5, which are your answers to 22 interrogatories, and direct your attention to your 23 answer to No. 4, please. 24 page. It goes up to the next It continues in your answer to No. 4. In your BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 229 1 answer, in describing what you had said at the scene, 2 was -- and I'll just read it so that I don't mix it 3 up here, and make sure I read it accurately. 4 says: 5 repeatedly stated words to the effect of Chicago 6 Police, let me see your hands. He repeated -- "he" referring to you -- 7 8 9 10 11 It And I'm wondering why you would couch it in "words to the effect of"? A. Because that's what I said. That's what I recall saying to him. Q. All right. Then why wouldn't you just say I 12 said to him, "Chicago Police, let me see your hands," 13 as opposed to "words to the effect of"? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. All right. Because "words to the effect 16 of," you can understand that that would lead somebody 17 reading that to believe that you don't know exactly 18 what you said. You understand that? 19 A. I understand what you're saying. 20 Q. Okay. And is it your testimony that you 21 were in fact said -- you in fact said, "Chicago 22 Police, let me see your hands," and that is the only 23 dialogue that you had with Mr. Castellanos, or are 24 you telling me that you said something similar to BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 230 1 2 3 4 that and that's why you answered it that way? A. To the best that I can recall, that's exactly what I said. Q. And to the best you can recall, does that 5 mean that you're sure about it, you're not sure about 6 it, you think that's what you said? 7 qualification there. Give me some 8 A. I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I said. 9 Q. When you say "pretty sure," are you 10 11 100 percent sure or not? A. 12 I'm 100 percent sure that's what I said. MR. HURD: As long as we're on the answers 13 to interrogatories, Interrogatory No. 5, where 14 in the answer he says, No. 2, Detective Spain at 15 Illinois Masonic Hospital, he does not recall 16 that conver- -- he does not recall talking to 17 Detective Spain. 18 19 So that shouldn't be in there. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. You've heard your counsel give that 20 correction for the record. Are you in agreement with 21 the statement that was just made by your lawyer? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you have any idea how that information 24 got into those answers? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 231 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did you sign those answers at some point in 3 time? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you read them before you signed them? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Why didn't you correct it before you signed 8 9 10 11 12 them? A. There's a lot of questions here, sir. must have missed that. Q. You'd agree with me that this is a fairly significant matter, right? 13 A. Absolutely. 14 Q. All right. 15 I There's, what, 20 -- 20 or so questions in there? 16 A. I'm not sure. 17 Q. 25, maybe. 18 A. It looks like there's 25 questions. 19 Q. I'm going to show you Exhibit No. 4 which is 20 just a Google search -- actually, a Yahoo Maps search 21 that shows a street map of Wilson Avenue. 22 you to look and find Wilson and Lawndale, which is 23 right here, sir. 24 And I want I'm going to walk this over to you. MR. O'CONNOR: I might just ask for a visual BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 232 1 2 3 on this, please. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. This is marked as Exhibit No. 4 for today, 4 and it's Yahoo Maps. 5 horizontally here from left to right; is that 6 correct, sir? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And then there's Pulaski Avenue over here on 9 And we have Wilson Avenue going the side that's closest to you, and that would be -- 10 yeah, it would be just west of here. 11 event, you told me that you were beginning your event 12 here on Lawndale and Wilson; is that correct? 13 14 15 A. Yeah. But in any I think we were approaching the stop sign at Lawndale and Wilson. Q. And I'd like you to count the number of 16 streets that come into Wilson all the way up until 17 Spaulding where the car came to rest, if you would. 18 A. It looks like it's seven. 19 Q. Now, let me help you here with your math a 20 little bit. 21 you were at Lawndale; is that right? You're on Wilson Avenue, and you said 22 A. Mm-hmm. 23 Q. Is that yes? 24 A. Yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 233 1 2 Q. Okay. Monticello is the street that Mr. Castellanos came onto Wilson; is that correct? 3 A. I believe so, yes. 4 Q. So that would be 1. Central Park is 2. The 5 next side street that cuts in is 3. 6 Another side street that ends into there, 5; 7 St. Louis, 6; another side street, 7; Bernard, 8; 8 Kimball, 9; another side street there at Christiana, 9 10; Spaulding is 11. 10 A. Drake is 4. Is that correct? If you're going to count the streets that T. 11 I thought you wanted all the way through, so I 12 misunderstood your question. 13 correct. 14 Q. But yeah, that's So that's 11 blocks that you would have been 15 following Mr. Castellanos during this event that 16 we've described here today; is that correct, sir? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. As far as the -- I'd like to shift gears a 19 little bit and ask you about the bullets that you had 20 fired. 21 me where it landed? The first shot that you fired, can you tell 22 A. No. 23 Q. Can you tell me where you were aiming? 24 A. At the threat. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 234 1 2 Q. Can you tell me what that means in layman's terms? 3 A. Mr. Castellanos is what I was aiming at. 4 Q. So you were aiming at Mr. Castellanos and 5 you cannot tell me if you struck him with your first 6 shot; is that correct? 7 A. Yeah, I don't recall. 8 Q. All right. 9 Well, are you under the impression -- Strike that. 10 Do you understand that as a police officer 11 you have to be justified each and every time you fire 12 your weapon at somebody? 13 14 15 16 A. I'm responsible for each and every time I pull the trigger, yes. Q. So you're not supposed to shoot at somebody if a circumstance changes, for instance? 17 A. I don't understand your question. 18 Q. All right. 19 Let's say you shoot and you injure somebody. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. The guy is no longer a threat to you. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. If that person has a chance of surviving, 24 are you supposed to stop shooting at him or keep BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 235 1 shooting at him until he's dead? 2 A. You're supposed to stop. 3 Q. So, in short, before you fire any bullet out 4 of your gun, you are required to make sure that you 5 are firing it for a very good reason and it's a 6 justifiable reason; is that a correct statement? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. All right. 9 So you fire your first bullet at Mr. Castellanos and you have no idea if you hit him; 10 is that true? 11 A. I don't recall. 12 Q. Okay. What did you do between the first 13 bullet and the second bullet that you fired to see 14 what effect the first bullet may have had or what 15 circumstance may have changed? 16 A. I don't recall. 17 Q. When you fired the second bullet at 18 Mr. Castellanos, where did it go? 19 A. I don't recall. 20 Q. Did it have any effect on Mr. Castellanos? 21 A. No. 22 He was still looking at me and turn- -- turning toward me. 23 Q. Was he hit? 24 A. I don't know. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 236 1 Q. Was he injured? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. What did you do to verify that you needed to 4 verify a third bullet? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. Before you fired -- excuse me. 7 8 When you fired the third bullet, were you again aiming at Mr. Castellanos? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Are you aiming to kill him each and every 11 one of these bullets? 12 A. I'm aiming to neutralize the threat. 13 Q. Okay. 14 15 16 17 So neutralizing a threat, can that be shooting somebody in the leg, for instance? A. If that incapacitates him and neutralizes the threat, yes. Q. Okay. Do you believe that Mr. Castellanos, 18 like other people, should be allowed an opportunity 19 to not be killed if they don't need to be? 20 A. Absolutely, sir. 21 Q. So at any point in time were you aiming to 22 wound Mr. Castellanos as opposed to kill him? 23 A. Sir, I wasn't trying to wound. 24 Q. Okay. So you were aiming to kill him? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 237 1 A. I was aiming to neutralize the threat, sir. 2 Q. I don't understand what that means. I'm 3 asking you just in English. Are you looking to 4 injure the guy, or are you looking to kill the guy? 5 A. To neutralize the threat. 6 Q. Meaning what? 7 A. To neutralize the threat. 8 Q. Give me some definition of what that means. 9 A. Incapacitate him. 10 Q. Okay. And to incapacitate somebody, that 11 can simply mean to injure them or it can mean to kill 12 them. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Which are you looking to do? A. Whatever force I need to use to neutralize the threat, or incapacitate him. Q. Okay. So what part of Mr. Castellanos's body were you aiming at for the first three bullets? A. I was -- probably the upper part of his body, the head. Q. Okay. When you say "probably," it just makes me not think that you are talking about -- 21 A. Well, there was only -- 22 Q. -- anything specific. 23 24 Excuse me, but I'm asking the question at that part, okay? It makes me think that you have no idea what BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 238 1 you're aiming at. 2 What part of Mr. Castellanos's body were you aiming 3 at for the first three bullets? 4 5 A. Q. 10 11 12 Please answer the question. What part of his body were aiming at? 8 9 I can only see so much of Mr. Castellanos's body. 6 7 So I'm going to ask you again. A. I'm trying to answer the question. I was aiming at the upper part of his body in the head area. Q. Well, which was it, his upper part of his body or his head? 13 A. I don't recall. 14 Q. When you guys go get trained to be qualified 15 as a person to fire a gun, you shoot at targets that 16 oftentimes are silhouettes of people; is that right? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And sometimes you're looking for a chest 19 shot, sometimes you're looking for a head shot. 20 There are markings on these targets, if you want to 21 call them that, right? 22 A. Sometimes there are, yes. 23 Q. Okay. 24 So you understand that when you shoot a gun you're supposed to aim at a particular target, BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 239 1 right? You're not just supposed to shoot in a 2 general direction; do you agree with that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. Because if you shoot in a general 5 direction, you might end up shooting 19 bullets at 6 something and only hitting it 3 times and potentially 7 risking hitting other people in the neighborhood, 8 right? 9 10 11 MR. HURD: Objection, compound form of the question. BY THE WITNESS: 12 A. It's possible. 13 Q. All right. 14 So you should aim at a particular target, right? 15 A. I was aiming at a target. 16 Q. What part of Mr. Castellanos's body were you 17 18 specifically aiming at for the first three shots? A. I don't recall on the first three shots. 19 don't recall on the fourth or fifth shot. 20 there was only so much that I could shoot at. 21 Q. I just -- On the fourth shot did you make any 22 determination before you made that shot what 23 condition Mr. Castellanos was in? 24 A. I I perceived him as a threat, so I -- I BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 240 1 didn't have a chance to make any determination at 2 that point in time. 3 4 5 6 Q. What was he doing at the -- as of the -- before you fired the fourth shot? A. The same thing he was doing in the second and third shot. 7 Q. Which is what? 8 A. He was looking in my direction, twisting and 9 turning. 10 threat. 11 Q. 12 13 I saw a dark object that I perceived as a You saw a dark object throughout your first, second, third, and fourth shots? A. I don't recall as far as the shots, number 14 of shots, because I was moving to get away, to find 15 to cover. 16 know, at what shot I was moving. 17 Q. So I can't tell you specifically, you Okay. I'm going to try to get you the 18 question again so we can actually get an answer. 19 you see the dark object that you just referenced 20 while you were shooting your first, second, third, 21 and fourth shot or not? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. All four shots? 24 A. From what I recall, yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 Did 241 1 Q. Your fifth shot, what were you aiming at? 2 A. The same thing as the other shots, sir. 3 Q. Which is what? 4 A. Mr. Castellanos and the threat. 5 Q. What part of his body were you aiming at? 6 A. There was only so much of him that was 7 exposed that I could to see. 8 9 Q. All right. It's easy if you just pick a body part you're aiming at. You're the only guy on 10 the planet that knows what you're aiming at. 11 guess. 12 fifth bullet? 13 A. I was shooting at the threat. 14 Q. I don't know what that means. 15 I can't So what body part were you aiming at with the What body part are you aiming at? 16 A. The threat, meaning Mr. Castellanos. 17 Q. What part of Mr. Castellanos's body were you 18 aiming at on the fifth shot? 19 A. I don't recall. 20 Q. Did you hit Mr. Castellanos on the fifth 21 shot? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Did he react in any fashion to the fifth 24 shot? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 242 1 A. No. 2 Q. What did you do to verify whether he was 3 alive, injured, uninjured before you fired a sixth 4 shot? 5 A. I moved to another location. 6 Q. All right. And did you have any dialogue 7 with him to say are you okay, give up, anything like 8 that at that time? 9 A. No, I did not. 10 Q. All right. 11 12 13 14 When you moved to the location, which location were you moving to? A. I recall going around a tree and south of the vehicle in the parkway area. Q. And you're telling me that you moved to this 15 location that you just mentioned between your fifth 16 shot and your sixth shot; is that right? 17 18 19 20 A. I don't recall what -- when that exactly happened. Q. So why did you tell me that that's what you did after the fifth shot and before the sixth shot? 21 A. Because I don't recall. 22 Q. Well, if you don't recall, wouldn't it be a 23 better answer that you don't recall rather than 24 telling me between the fifth shot and the sixth shot BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 243 1 you moved to a different location, which is very 2 specific information? 3 to just say I don't know? 4 A. Wouldn't it be a better answer I told you I didn't recall the second, 5 third, fourth, and fifth shot. 6 so fast. 7 Q. All right. Everything happened So when you just told me that 8 you moved to another location between the fifth and 9 the sixth shot, is that a true statement, or did you 10 11 just make that up? A. I don't recall. That's what I was -- I was 12 trying to tell you I don't recall. 13 happening very fast. 14 Q. Things were When you fired the sixth shot, did you do 15 anything before firing the sixth shot to see hwat 16 condition Mr. Castellanos was in? 17 A. I don't recall. 18 Q. Where were you situated when you fired the 19 sixth shot? 20 A. I don't recall. 21 Q. What were you aiming at when you fired the 22 sixth shot? 23 A. Mr. Castellanos and the threat. 24 Q. What part of his body did you aim at? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 244 1 A. The parts that I could see. 2 Q. Which are what? 3 A. The upper part of his body. 4 Q. Now, when you're firing this sixth shot, 5 giving me the information that you're looking at the 6 upper art of his body, it sounds to me like you are 7 looking at a vantage point of him. 8 the vehicle? 9 you west of the vehicle or east of the vehicle? Were you north of the vehicle? 10 MR. HURD: 11 MR. O'CONNOR: 12 MR. HURD: 13 Were you south of Were During the sixth shot? Yes, sir. If he recalls. BY THE WITNESS: 14 A. I don't recall. 15 Q. Do you know where you were situated when you 16 fired the sixth shot? 17 A. Specifically the sixth shot? 18 Q. Yeah. 19 A. No, I don't. 20 Q. Otherwise I would have asked a different 21 shot. 22 shot, how can you tell me that you're aiming at the 23 upper part of his body that you could see? 24 If you don't know where you are on the sixth A. Sir, to make this simple. I don't recall BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 245 1 exactly where I was for any of the shots other than I 2 was somewhere in the parkway south of the vehicle. 3 Q. When did you change your clip? 4 A. I don't recall. 5 Q. Where were you when you changed the clip? 6 A. I believe I was in the parkway south of the 7 vehicle. 8 Q. What do you base that on? 9 A. Just based on the pictures that I saw of 10 11 12 13 14 15 shell casings. Q. Did you see the clip laying there on the ground somewhere? A. I believe so. It was in one of the pictures. Q. But that's the only reason that you think 16 you may have been in that location when you changed 17 the clip, is you saw it in a photograph? 18 19 20 A. I believe that I was in that area when I -- when I did a tactical reload. Q. Okay. I thought you told me a while ago 21 that you didn't even remember doing the tactical 22 reload; is that correct? 23 A. I don't remember doing a tactical reload. 24 Q. So I don't understand that jiving with your BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 246 1 last answer, that you thought you were then in the 2 parkway when you did a tactical reload. 3 base that on? 4 A. From the pictures. 5 Q. Okay. 6 I asked you that a few minutes ago. I thought we -- all right. 7 So the seventh shot -- 8 MR. HURD: 9 10 Mr. O'Connor, I think we can keep the comments to ourselves. BY MR. O'CONNOR: 11 12 What do you Q. The seventh shot, what were you aiming at, what part of Mr. Castellanos's body, if at all? 13 A. Just what I could see. 14 Q. What could you see for the seventh shot? 15 A. I don't recall specifically on the seventh 16 shot. But what I could see, I just saw the upper 17 part of Mr. Castellanos's body. 18 Q. Was he alive or moving? 19 A. He was moving. 20 Q. How so? 21 A. He was tracking me. 22 Q. What do you mean by that? 23 A. His arms were extended. 24 Q. Okay. So you know he's tracking you, you BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 247 1 know his arms are extended, but you don't know where 2 you're located for the seventh shot; is that right? 3 A. Because I was focusing on the threat. 4 Q. Okay. I'm just asking you. You can tell me 5 that his arms are extended and that he was moving and 6 that he was tracking you, but you still can't tell me 7 where you're looking at all this specific information 8 from when you fire that seventh shot; is that 9 correct, sir? 10 A. 11 12 13 I said that I believe I was in the parkway south of the vehicle. Q. right. So you're there for the seventh shot. All The eighth shot, where are you situated? 14 A. I don't recall. 15 Q. Did you move from the parkway? 16 A. I don't recall. 17 Q. Where were you aiming for the eighth shot? 18 A. The same as the seventh. 19 Q. So -- 20 A. The upper part of the body, what I could see 21 what was exposed. 22 Q. What side were you looking at him from? 23 A. You mean his body specifically? 24 Q. Yeah. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 248 1 MR. HURD: 2 MR. O'CONNOR: 3 MR. HURD: 4 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Time of the eighth shot. At the time of the eighth shot. Do you know where you were looking? 5 6 At the time of the seventh or -- MR. O'CONNOR: I'll ask the questions if you don't mind, Matt. BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. Where were you looking at him from when he fired the -- when you fired the eighth shot? A. I believe that would have been the right side of his body. Q. Okay. And you would have been situated where? A. Somewhere in the parkway south of the vehicle. Q. And why do you say you "believe" somewhere on the right side of his body? A. What does that mean? Well, because he was -- when he was tracking 19 me, he was turning right, east, like toward east on 20 Wilson. 21 Q. And did you hit him on the eighth shot? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Did you do anything to verify whether he had 24 been incapacitated or neutralized as of the eighth BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 249 1 shot? 2 A. I don't recall the number of shots. 3 Q. I didn't ask you that. I just asked you, at 4 the eighth shot did you do anything to see if he had 5 been incapacitated or neutralized? 6 A. No. I continued to shoot. 7 Q. On any one of the first seven shots, did you 8 do anything before firing the next bullet to see if 9 you had incapacitated Mr. Castellanos in any way? 10 A. I don't understand your question. 11 Q. I thought you told me that you were 12 attempting to neutralize the threat, which -- 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. -- meant to incapacitate him. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. So what did you do for the first 17 eight shots to see if your shots had neutralized or 18 incapacitated Mr. Castellanos to the point where you 19 didn't have to continue shooting, if anything? 20 21 22 A. I continued to shoot because I perceived Mr. Castellanos as a threat. Q. So you did nothing to verify that he had 23 been neutralized or not neutralized as of the first 24 eight shots; is that correct? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 250 1 2 3 A. I -- again, I saw him as a threat. He was tracking my movement. Q. Please just answer the question. I mean, 4 what did do you in the first eight shots to verify 5 whether you had neutralized or incapacitated 6 Mr. Castellanos, if anything? 7 A. I don't recall. 8 Q. The ninth shot, where were you situated when 9 you fired the ninth shot? 10 A. I don't recall. 11 Q. What were you aiming at for the ninth shot? 12 A. The areas of Mr. Castellanos that were 13 14 exposed that I could see. Q. All right. Well, if you don't know where 15 you were situated and you're not sure what vantage 16 point you were at for the ninth shot, how do you know 17 that you were aiming at that spot? 18 A. I don't understand your question. 19 Q. All right. 20 21 22 23 24 You can't tell me where you're at for the ninth shot, true? A. I can't tell where I was at for most of the shots. Q. Okay. For the ninth shot, can you tell me where you were at? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 251 1 A. No. 2 Q. Can you tell me what viewpoint you have? 3 A. I already did. 4 Q. Refresh my memory. 5 A. I told you I was in the parkway. 6 Q. And that was for the ninth shot as well? 7 A. I believe for most of the shots. 8 Q. Okay. And we know that the bullet casings 9 were found on the ground afterwards in different 10 locations and they're marked and categorized and 11 documented, right? 12 A. I believe so, yes. 13 Q. And you read those reports too, right? 14 A. I think I've seen them, yes. 15 Q. All right. 16 So the ninth shot, what vantage point did you have of Mr. Castellanos, if you know? 17 A. The same as the others. 18 Q. The same as which others? 19 A. You're asking me what I saw? 20 Q. Yes. What viewpoint did you have of 21 Mr. Castellanos when you fired the ninth bullet at 22 him? 23 A. I was in the parkway looking at the vehicle. 24 Q. So you're looking through what window? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 252 1 A. 2 back window. 3 Q. Is it the back window or -- 4 A. Yes, the back window. 5 Q. All right. 6 ninth bullet? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. What did you do to see if he was neutralized 9 I guess that would be the back window. The And did you hit him with the as of that point in time? 10 A. He wasn't neutralized. 11 Q. How do you know that? 12 A. Because he was still tracking my movement. 13 His arms were still extended, and I perceived him as 14 a threat. 15 16 Q. So at the ninth bullet, he's got his arms extended; is that right? 17 A. That's what I recall. 18 Q. All right. 19 And where were his arms extended during the ninth bullet? 20 A. I don't recall. 21 Q. Well, if you don't recall where his arms 22 were extended, how can you tell me that they were 23 extended at all? 24 A. His arms were extended. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 253 1 Q. Please tell me where. Show me. Whatever 2 way of explaining that so I can understand how 3 they're extended at that ninth bullet, can you 4 demonstrate it? 5 A. Well, Mr. O'Connor, the situation, it 6 happened very, very fast. 7 you, again, other than I continued to shoot to 8 eliminate the threat. 9 Q. All right. I mean, I -- I can't tell I didn't make up that you saw 10 his arms extended during the ninth bullet. 11 introduced that, so I have to ask the question. 12 A. You just His arms were extended and he was tracking 13 me, and they didn't come down until, you know, I 14 fired my last bullet. 15 Q. When you said Mr. Castellanos's arms were 16 extended at the ninth bullet, where were they 17 extended? 18 what they were doing. 19 A. If you could please demonstrate for me They were extended forward, and he was, you 20 know, turning toward his -- toward the -- toward the 21 right. 22 23 24 Q. Okay. Forward would be towards the front of the car? A. Yes, he was twisting and turning like he was BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 254 1 tracking me. 2 Q. Which direction were his arms extended? 3 A. I guess -- 4 Q. I don't want you to guess. 5 His arms were extended. Which direction were they extended? 6 A. East. 7 Q. East? Okay. So that would be towards the 8 front of his car -- excuse me. 9 towards the passenger's side of the car; is that 10 11 It would have been right? A. He was turning east toward the passenger's 12 side and then I guess south toward the back of the 13 vehicle. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. Well, when you say you "guess" south, did he actually ever turn south? A. He -- he was turning in that direction, I guess in east, south. Q. Well, you're either east or you're south. You're not both. A. So which is it? Well, it's -- he's tracking me. turning. He's He's twisting. Q. Which direction were his arms extended, east or south? A. He was turning east and south. Pick one. Both. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 255 1 Q. Which was it? 2 A. Both. 3 Q. Okay. 4 All right. The ninth bullet, did you hit him? 5 A. I don't know. 6 Q. What did you do after the ninth bullet to 7 8 9 10 11 verify whether you neutralized the threat? A. I saw him with his arms extended, and I continued to shoot. Q. Okay. Did you have any dialogue with him at that time? 12 A. No, I did not. 13 Q. The tenth bullet, where were you situated 14 15 16 when you fired it? A. Approximately the same areas as the ninth, the eighth, and the seventh. 17 Q. And what part of the body did you aim at? 18 A. The areas that I could see exposed. 19 Q. Which were what? 20 A. Would have been the upper part of his body. 21 Q. Where you aiming at his shoulders, his back, 22 his head, his ears? What were you aiming at? 23 A. I was shooting at the threat. 24 Q. Okay. What part of Mr. Castellanos's body BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 256 1 were you aiming at? 2 3 4 A. It would have been the upper part of his body. Q. So does that mean below his neck and to some 5 level, or does that mean including his head? 6 does that mean? 7 8 9 A. What Arms, head, shoulders, chest, just what I could -- what I could see. Q. Okay. So which -- clearly you're not 10 shooting a shotgun, so you're not aiming for 11 everything. 12 bullet? 13 A. I just told you, sir. 14 Q. You told me him arms, his shoulders, his 15 What are you aiming for on the tenth head, his neck, and his chest? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Those are at least five areas. 18 A. That's not a lot of area to shoot at. 19 Q. Did you strike Mr. Castellanos with the 20 tenth bullet? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. What did you do after the tenth bullet? 23 A. I continued to shoot. 24 Q. All right. And did you do anything after BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 257 1 the tenth bullet to see if you had neutralized or 2 incapacitated Mr. Castellanos? 3 A. No, sir. I continued to shoot. 4 Q. While you were continuing to shoot, now 5 through eleven bullets, looking at Mr. Castellanos, 6 did you see anyone else in the vehicle? 7 A. No, I did not. 8 Q. When you shot your eleventh bullet, did it 9 strike Mr. Castellanos? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. What did you do to verify that you had 12 incapacitated or did not incapacitate Mr. Castellanos 13 before firing a twelfth bullet? 14 A. I didn't do anything. 15 Q. What did you aim at for the twelfth shot? 16 A. Just the areas that I could see that was 17 I shot again. exposed. 18 Q. Any specific area? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Where were Mr. Castellanos's arms when you 21 fired your twelfth shot? 22 A. They were still extended. 23 Q. Which direction were they extended at this 24 point in time? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 258 1 2 3 A. I don't recall. could have been east. Q. It could have been south, He was tracking me. Well, if you saw them extended during the 4 twelfth shot and you remember that enough to tell me 5 that they were extended, I'm assuming that you 6 remember enough to tell me how they were extended and 7 which direction. 8 Which direction were his arms extended during the 9 twelfth shot? 10 A. I don't recall. 11 Q. Before the thirteenth shot did you do So I have to ask you that, sir. 12 anything to verify whether Mr. Castellanos had been 13 injured or incapacitated or in any way neutralized? 14 A. I continued to shoot. 15 Q. So you did nothing to verify whether he was 16 neutralized before the thirteenth bullet; is that 17 correct? 18 A. I don't recall firing the thirteenth bullet. 19 Q. You did in fact fire a thirteenth bullet, 20 right? 21 A. I know that now. 22 Q. Okay. So where were you -- I mean, you're 23 only 13, 14, 15 -- you're three from the last bullet 24 that you fired. You don't remember firing that one? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 259 1 A. No. 2 Q. Where were you at, if you know? Well, I 3 guess you don't. If you don't remember firing it, 4 you can't tell me where you were at for the 5 thirteenth bullet, can you? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You can't tell me what you're aiming at for 8 It's happening very fast. the thirteenth bullet? 9 A. The upper part of his body. 10 Q. How do you know that? 11 A. Because that's the only thing that I can Q. Yeah, but if you don't remember firing it, 12 see. 13 14 how can you tell me where you're aiming? 15 A. Well, because I was focused on the threat. 16 I don't remember how many times I fired. 17 very fast. 18 It happened Q. The thirteenth bullet, did you hit him with 20 A. I don't know, sir. 21 Q. Did you do anything before the fourteenth 19 22 it? bullet to verify whether he was incapacitated? 23 A. I shot again. 24 Q. So tell me everything you did before -- BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 260 1 between 13 and 14 to see if he was incapacitated or 2 neutralized? 3 A. 4 threat. 5 Q. That's all you did; is that right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. The fourteenth bullet, did you hit him with 8 I continued to shoot to eliminate the I was in fear for my life. that one? 9 A. I don't know, sir. 10 Q. Where were you aiming at for the fourteenth 11 shot? 12 A. The areas that were exposed that I could 14 Q. Any areas now on this fourteenth shot? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Where were Mr. Castellanos's arms for the 13 17 see. fourteenth shot? 18 19 A. They were still extended, still tracking me east and south. 20 Q. You weren't moving between the twelfth, 21 thirteenth, fourteenth, and fifteenth bullet, were 22 you? 23 24 A. No, sir, I don't recall. (Short interruption.) BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 261 1 MR. O'CONNOR: 2 MR. HURD: 3 You okay to keep going? Yeah. BY MR. O'CONNOR: 4 Q. Between the fourteenth and fifteenth bullet, 5 tell me everything you did to verify whether the 6 threat had been neutralized -- Strike the question. 7 Tell me between the fourteenth and fifteenth 8 bullet everything you did to verify whether 9 Mr. Castellanos had been neutralized. 10 A. I continued to shoot. 11 Q. The fifteenth bullet was the last bullet 12 that you fired. 13 14 A. Where did you fire it from? rest. I believe it was in the same area as the I don't recall. 15 Q. So the answer is you don't recall? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What were you aiming at? 18 A. The areas that were exposed. 19 Q. Which were what at this point? 20 A. The upper part of his body. 21 Q. Anything more specific? 22 A. No. 23 Q. What made you stop shooting? 24 A. The arms came down. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 262 1 2 3 4 5 6 Q. At what point in time did the arms come down? A. I don't recall exactly what point. after I was done shooting. Q. So you don't know if the arms came down after 11, 12, 13, 14 -- 7 A. No. 8 Q. -- or 15 -- 9 A. No. 10 Q. -- is that right? 11 A. No. 12 13 14 It was The arms -- the arms came down after I fired the last bullet. Q. Did you hit Mr. Castellanos with the fifteenth bullet? 15 A. I don't know, sir. 16 Q. What happened after that? 17 A. I went up to my partner, found my partner. 18 Q. What happened after that? 19 A. I asked him if he was okay because I wasn't 20 21 22 sure if he was hit or not. Q. He had already told twice that he was hit, right? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. What did you find out when you got to your BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 263 1 partner? 2 3 A. shook his head. 4 5 Q. And then I told him to cover me. When your partner shook his head, was he shaking his head affirmatively or negatively? 6 7 I just asked him if he was okay, and he A. To me he was -- he was telling me he was okay. 8 Q. So he nodded his head up and down? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. Nodded his head up and down. 12 Q. All right. Can you show me how he did that? The -- where were you in 13 relationship to Mr. Castellanos when you were having 14 this conversation with your partner? 15 16 17 18 A. I don't recall exactly. the parkway by the cars. Q. And how long did you wait before you approached the car? 19 A. It was immediately. 20 Q. All right. 21 It was somewhere in And as you approached the car, who approached first? 22 A. I was approaching the vehicle first. 23 Q. Where was your partner in relation to you? 24 A. Directly -- right next to me. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 264 1 Q. Left side, right side? 2 A. Behind me. 3 I don't recall if it was left or right. 4 Q. I thought you said he's next to you. 5 A. Well, that could be left or right. 6 Q. Okay. 7 So which is it? 8 9 Now you just said he's behind you. A. Well, as we approached the vehicle, he's -- I guess I don't recall exactly where he was. I know 10 when we got up on the vehicle he was right next to 11 me. 12 Q. I asked you as you approached the vehicle 13 where was your partner in relationship to you, who 14 you said went first. 15 A. No, I didn't say that, sir. 16 went first. 17 Q. I said you said you -- 18 A. I went first. 19 Q. -- went first. I said that I Okay, you go first. 20 in relationship to you was your partner as you 21 approached the vehicle? Where 22 A. I'm not exactly sure. 23 Q. As you got to the vehicle, what side of you 24 was your partner on or where in relationship to you? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 265 1 A. As we're at the vehicle? 2 Q. Yeah. 3 A. I guess at that point he was directly behind Q. Okay. 4 me. 5 So you're -- what relationship do you 6 have to Mr. Castellanos when you get to the vehicle? 7 Where are you standing? 8 9 A. Like, I'm kind of -- I'm on the driver's side by the passenger door. 10 Q. Driver's side by the passenger door? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Does that mean driver's-side back door? 13 A. Yes. We were coming from -- I'm sorry, I misspoke. Yes. So we're 14 approaching from the south, approaching the vehicle, 15 when I got up to the driver's-side passenger door. 16 17 Q. So you're southwest of Mr. Castellanos himself? 18 A. Somewhere in that area. 19 Q. And your partner, Mr. Martinez, is behind A. No. 20 21 you? We're actually on -- on the -- I'm 22 literally leaning on the car. 23 that's what you mean. 24 Q. I'm on the car. If Okay. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 266 1 MR. HURD: 2 finish your answer. 3 Why don't we -- Go ahead and BY MR. O'CONNOR: 4 Q. And your partner's behind you at that point? 5 A. Yes. 6 MR. HURD: Okay. 7 MR. O'CONNOR: 8 MR. HURD: 9 MR. O'CONNOR: Why don't we take a break. May I ask why? Pardon me? May I ask why? It's, like, 10 10 after 4:00, and I want to get out of here. 11 have a couple basketball games to coach, unless 12 somebody's gonna -- 13 MR. HURD: 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 15 the record. All right. We'll go off (A short break was had.) 17 19 Just two minutes. The time is 4:06 p.m. 16 18 I THE VIDEOGRAPHER: video record. We are now back on the The time is 4:12 p.m. Counsel? BY MR. O'CONNOR: 20 Q. You approached the car. Your intention is 21 to do what? 22 A. To handcuff him. 23 Q. To handcuff Mr. Castellanos? 24 A. Yes. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 267 1 Q. Can you see him at that point when you 2 approach the car from the driver's side by the rear 3 door? 4 A. As I got closer I could. 5 Q. What did you see? 6 A. I saw that he was unconscious and breathing. 7 Q. What was your vantage point of his head? 8 Did you see his face, his side, the -- 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. -- back of his head? 11 A. I could see his face when I was approaching 12 the vehicle. 13 Q. 14 15 16 17 What did you see? So was his face toward out towards the driver's-side window? A. Well, he was -- yeah, from what I recall he was looking straight ahead. Q. Okay. So if you're coming from the back 18 left of him by the passenger door on the driver's 19 side, which is the rear door on the driver's side, if 20 he's looking forward, wouldn't you be looking at the 21 back of his head, side of his head? 22 23 24 A. At this point I was actually right by the driver's-side door. Q. So now you're up next to the driver's-side BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 268 1 door? 2 3 A. Me and my partner approached, and I was right up on the driver's-side door. 4 5 Yes. Q. And where was your partner in relationship to you when you approached the door? 6 A. He was right behind me. 7 Q. Okay. 9 A. He was right behind me, right there. 10 Q. So behind you meaning what: 8 11 12 13 14 And when you got to the door, where was? south, west, east, north, where? A. I don't recall exactly because I was reaching in to do the handcuffing into the vehicle. Q. And what conversation, if any, did you have 15 with your partner before you handcuffed 16 Mr. Castellanos? 17 A. I just, you know, asked him if he was -- you 18 know, just to watch him because I had to holster up 19 my weapon. 20 Q. Specifically what did you tell him? 21 A. I asked him if he had him. 22 Q. Those are the words you used? 23 A. Something to that effect. 24 Q. And what happened next? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 269 1 2 3 A. I holstered my weapon. And I reached for my cuffs and, I did the handcuffing. Q. Where was Mr. Martinez standing in 4 relationship to Mr. Castellanos while you performed 5 the handcuffing of Mr. Castellanos. 6 7 8 9 A. I'm not sure exactly where he was when I was doing the handcuffing. Q. You had fired 15 bullets in your gun as of that point in time; is that right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You're familiar from your police experience 12 that you're going to get gunpowder residue on your 13 hands after firing 15 shots; is that right? 14 A. It's possible, yes. 15 Q. And you're grabbing Mr. Castellanos's wrist 16 17 18 to handcuff him; is that correct? A. I don't recall exactly what body part I grabbed. 19 Q. What did you handcuff? 20 A. I handcuffed his -- I think I believe his 21 wrists. 22 Q. All right. 23 A. I don't recall exactly how I cuffed him. 24 Q. All right. Did you pinch the cuffs closed? So was it possible that gun BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 270 1 residue came off of your hands and onto his? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. What happened after you handcuffed 4 5 6 Mr. Castellanos? A. I just took a quick look in the vehicle, stepped back, and I went into shock. 7 Q. What did you see in the vehicle? 8 A. I didn't -- I don't recall. 9 Q. Well, in fairness, you just opened the 10 It was dark. driver's-side door to handcuff him, right? 11 A. I never said that, sir. 12 Q. Did you or not? 13 A. I never -- I never said that, and I did not 14 open the door. 15 Q. You did not open the door? 16 A. No, sir, I did not. 17 Q. So you reached through the window and 18 handcuffed him? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. That's what we call the emergency 22 handcuffing. 23 Q. 24 Okay. And did you handcuff him to the steering wheel or any other object? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 271 1 A. No, sir, I did not. 2 Q. Did you believe there was a gun in the car? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. Where was it? When you handcuffed 5 Mr. Castellanos, where was the gun that you told me 6 about? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. All right. 9 10 Well, not knowing where the gun is, you handcuff a guy who's breathing -- right, he's alive? 11 A. Yes, he was breathing. 12 Q. Okay. And you let him sit there with his 13 handcuffs in front of him basically in his lap, 14 right? 15 16 A. I don't recall exactly, but I do recall handcuffing him. 17 Q. You handcuffed him in the front not the 18 back, right? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. All right. So his hands would have been 21 able to move right, left, center, up, down, even 22 extend; is that right? 23 A. It's possible. 24 Q. All right. So -- BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 272 1 A. But -- 2 Q. -- you handcuff this gentleman. He's 3 breathing. 4 you believe there's a weapon in the car. 5 did you do to find the weapon to make sure that he 6 couldn't get it and then shoot you? 7 A. He's got his hands in front of him, and I just looked inside the vehicle briefly, 8 and I didn't see a weapon. 9 stepped back and I was in shock. 10 And what Q. Like I said, I just Tell me why you didn't pull Mr. Castellanos 11 out of the car away from the vehicle where you 12 supposedly think you saw a hypothetical gun? 13 A. I actually did try to open the car door, but 14 I believe it was pinched. I don't think I could open 15 the car door, the driver's-side door. 16 Q. Did you try any other doors? 17 A. No, sir, I did not. 18 Q. How did you look around the car? What did 19 you do to look around the car, just stick your head 20 in there? 21 22 23 24 A. Yeah, my head was inside there. I had to reach in, you know, to cuff him. Q. Okay. And that's it, you just stuck your head in the car and looked around? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 273 1 A. That's all I recall. 2 Q. Okay. 3 And then what did you guys do after that? 4 A. 5 was in shock. 6 into an ambulance. 7 I don't recall. Q. I wasn't -- like I said, I The only thing I recall is getting Is that normal procedure, that if you 8 believe that somebody has a gun in a car that you 9 would handcuff them in front with their hands in 10 front of them and leave them in the same vehicle 11 where the weapon was supposed to have been while you 12 stand outside? 13 14 15 A. I don't think we actually have a procedure with that. Q. Is that normal police procedure? It's -- I looked. I didn't see a weapon. Doesn't that sound kind of ridiculous to 16 you, that two officers who say that they had a guy 17 with a gun, who you've now just been in a gunfight 18 with, handcuff him and let him sit in the very 19 vehicle with his hands in front of him not finding 20 the gun yet and just stand outside? 21 A. 22 I did look. 23 Q. 24 That's how I was trained to do the cuffing. I believe my partner looked as well. What do you -- what do you base that on? Did you see him look? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 274 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. So you saw Mr. Martinez look in the car as 3 4 5 well? A. After I stepped away from the vehicle, I believe he was looking in the vehicle too. 6 Q. How so? 7 A. I saw him standing next to the vehicle. 8 Q. What did he do to look in the vehicle? 9 10 What did he do? he stick his head inside? Did Did he open the door? What did he do? 11 A. He was looking around. 12 Q. Please tell me how he was doing that, sir. 13 What motions was he performing -- 14 A. I don't recall -- 15 Q. Excuse me. 16 (Continuing) -- to get a vantage point into the vehicle? 17 A. I don't recall exactly what he was doing. 18 Q. If Castellanos had a gun in the vehicle at 19 that point in time, he could simply pick it up with 20 his hands still handcuffed, point his arms out the 21 window and shoot both of you dead, right? 22 A. He was unconscious, sir. 23 Q. How do you know that? 24 A. Because I handcuffed him. I saw his eyes BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 275 1 were closed. 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 Okay. So by definition, if his eyes are closed, in your mind that means unconscious? A. I saw him breathing. I don't know how else to describe it. Q. Could somebody simply close their eyes without being unconscious? 8 A. I'm sorry? 9 Q. If someone has their eyes closed, it doesn't 10 mean they're unconscious, does it? 11 A. It's possible. 12 Q. All right. You didn't have any dialogue 13 with Mr. Castellanos as he was sitting there when you 14 handcuffed him, did you? 15 A. I don't recall. I don't believe I did, no. 16 Q. So you have no way of knowing whether he was 17 able to communicate with you or how responsive he was 18 to questions because you didn't ask him any; isn't 19 that correct? 20 A. I don't recall asking him questions. 21 Q. Your partner didn't ask him any questions 22 there either, did he? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. All right. You didn't hear your partner ask BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 276 1 him any questions at that point in time, did you? 2 A. I didn't hear it, no. 3 Q. All right. So who decides to call off the 4 search for this gun that you've been telling us 5 about? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. All right. So in your training have you 8 ever trained that if you arrest someone -- well, in 9 fact, let's back up a little bit. 10 11 When you put the handcuffs on Mr. Castellanos, are you arresting him effectively? 12 13 A. Well, I guess technically he would be in custody. 14 Q. So did you read him his rights? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Are you supposed to? 17 A. I don't have to. 18 Q. Did your partner read him his rights? 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. Why do you say you don't have to? 21 A. Because I wasn't planning on questioning Q. So don't you have to tell somebody before 22 23 24 him. they start spouting off any information that you have BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 277 1 the right to remain silent? 2 tell them that? 3 4 5 Aren't you supposed to A. If they're making a spontaneous statement, Q. So in your mind you can handcuff somebody no. 6 and put them in the back of the car and let them sit 7 there for an infinite amount of time before you read 8 them their rights waiting to see if they say 9 something? 10 A. No, I wouldn't agree with that. 11 Q. So what's the rule? 12 When do you read a guy his rights once you put the handcuffs on? 13 A. I didn't Mirandize him. 14 Q. I get it. I didn't ask you that, and you 15 already told me that. What's the rule as to how long 16 after you handcuff somebody you're supposed to read 17 them their rights? 18 A. It depends. 19 Q. It depends on what? 20 A. The scenario, the situation. 21 What's the rule? This situation, it wasn't applicable. 22 Q. Why not? 23 A. He was unconscious. 24 Q. Okay. And the most you can tell me about BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 278 1 2 3 why you think that is because he had his eyes closed? A. I believe that he was -- at that point in time he needed medical assistance, sir. 4 Q. What do you base that on? 5 A. The blood. 6 Q. Did you call an ambulance for him? 7 A. My partner did. 8 Q. What did he tell the ambulance? 9 A. He didn't tell the ambulance anything. 10 Q. What did he tell the dispatcher? 11 A. Get an ambulance over here. 12 Q. Okay. 13 Did he tell the dispatcher what the injuries were on the scene? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Did you offer any first aid to 16 Mr. Castellanos? 17 A. I'm not trained to give first aid, sir. 18 Q. Did you offer any? 19 A. How am I supposed to offer any if I'm not 20 trained in it? 21 Q. I'm just asking if you -- 22 A. No, I did not. 23 Q. -- gave the guy any help. 24 A. No, sir, I did not. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 279 1 Q. All right. 3 A. I don't believe he did. 4 Q. How long were you sitting there with 2 5 Did your partner offer any first aid? Mr. Castellanos -- Strike that. 6 While Mr. Castellanos was sitting in the 7 car, were you and your partner waiting for an 8 ambulance to show up? 9 A. I don't recall. 10 Q. Wasn't there other police officers on site 11 by then? 12 A. I believe so. 13 Q. All right. 14 I was in shock. When did the first police officer come out? 15 A. I'm not exactly sure. 16 Q. How long were you standing there by the car 17 with Mr. Castellanos in the car before the first 18 other person came to the scene besides Mr. Martinez? 19 A. I don't recall. 20 Q. All right. Tell me all of the searching 21 that you or your partner did for a weapon in this 22 vehicle. 23 24 A. I briefly looked inside, and I believe my partner -- I saw him looking inside as well. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 280 1 Q. And you found no gun? 2 A. I did not find a gun, no. 3 Q. Did your partner find a gun? 4 A. No, he did not. 5 Q. Did anybody find a gun? 6 A. As far as I know, no. 7 Q. So it's possible there's no gun, right? 8 A. Sir, I saw a gun. 9 I heard gunshots. I saw the glass being blown out. 10 Q. So the gun vanished? 11 A. I never said it vanished. 12 Q. Where is the gun? 13 A. I believe there was somebody else in the 14 vehicle, sir. 15 Q. Who did you tell that to? 16 A. When? 17 Q. Ever. 18 A. I didn't tell anybody that. 19 Q. So let me get this straight. You think 20 there's another guy in the vehicle who would have 21 been the person pointing the gun and theoretically 22 shooting two shots; is that right? 23 A. That's what I -- I believe happened, yes. 24 Q. So if that's true -- let's assume you're BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 281 1 correct for a moment. 2 wrong guy three times after aiming at him 19 times, 3 killed him, and then let the bad guy go in a 4 residential neighborhood with a weapon; is that 5 correct? 6 A. Basically you guys shot the Sir, I was shooting at a threat. I -- to 7 differentiate who exactly had the gun, I don't know. 8 I saw a gun. 9 threat. I heard gunshots. I was shooting at a I was in fear for my life and my partner's 10 life, sir. 11 it's very possible that somebody else was in the 12 vehicle. 13 Q. You asked me is it possible? I think And if that's true, then you guys shot the 14 wrong guy, killed him, and the bad guy got away with 15 a weapon in a residential neighborhood. 16 your partner thought so much of it that you told not 17 a soul when all the police have already set up a 18 perimeter blocks around the scene to secure the area; 19 is that correct? 20 MR. HURD: 21 22 Objection to the compound nature of the question. BY THE WITNESS: 23 24 And you and A. I'm sorry. Could you just rephrase that for me? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 282 1 2 Q. The police set up a perimeter around this scene; is that right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And nobody's getting in, nobody's getting 5 out because you have the police there and they know 6 there's a police shooting involved -- 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. -- and you guys have reported that you were 9 in fact shot at, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. This is a big deal, isn't it? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. Now, you think there's another guy in 14 the car who may have been firing the bullets that you 15 say that you heard, and that guy would not be 16 Mr. Castellanos because, by definition, he's not 17 "another guy," right? 18 A. Sir, I can't tell you that I saw another 19 person in the car. 20 a possibility that somebody else was in the car based 21 on what I know now. 22 23 24 Q. Okay. I never said that. I think it's You told nobody about some other person in the car with a gun; is that right? A. I said that I saw a gun, but I never said or BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 283 1 stated at any point in time that I saw another person 2 in the car. 3 that it's a very good possibility that there was 4 somebody else in the vehicle that shot at us. 5 Q. All I'm saying, sir, is that I believe And if that is in fact true, then you guys 6 killed the wrong guy and another guy got away into 7 the neighborhood with a gun and you didn't stop him; 8 is that correct? 9 MR. HURD: 10 11 of the question. BY THE WITNESS: 12 13 14 Objection to the compound nature A. see. Sir, I dove and I hit the ground. I didn't Everything was happening so fast. Q. You've offered up a proposition that there's 15 another guy in the car who's the guy with the gun. 16 If that is correct, what you've raised, then you've 17 shot and killed the wrong guy and let another guy get 18 away with a gun into a residential neighborhood 19 without even so much as chasing him; isn't that 20 correct? 21 22 23 24 A. It's -- I was shooting at a threat, sir, and that is -- it's a possibility. Q. What's a possibility, what I said is a correct statement? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 284 1 A. I'm not saying it's a correct statement. 2 I'm saying that I was shooting at a threat, sir. 3 was shooting at a threat, saw a gun, heard the 4 gunshots. 5 Q. And if -- 6 A. And I'm saying that is a possibility. 7 Q. Okay. I So it's possible in your mind that 8 you and your partner shot the wrong guy, killed him, 9 and then let someone else who had a weapon go into 10 the neighborhood and get away without so much as 11 chasing him; that in your mind is a possibility, 12 right? 13 A. It is possible, yes. 14 Q. All right. 15 And if you have a weapon in the car that you believe is in the car -- Strike that. 16 If you believe that you see a weapon in a 17 car, wouldn't you be obligated to search for it until 18 you find it? 19 A. 20 Sir, I stated several times now that I was in shock. 21 Q. Was your partner in shock? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Were you ever diagnosed as being in shock? 24 A. I -- I was in shock, sir. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 285 1 Q. I didn't ask you that. Were you ever 2 diagnosed by the doctor at the hospital where you 3 went to get your bruise checked out -- diagnosed as 4 being in shock? 5 A. I don't know what they diagnosed me with. 6 Q. Did you ever tell any of the detectives that 7 you were in shock? 8 A. I don't recall. 9 Q. Did you ever tell anybody that investigated 10 this while you were talking to the police personnel 11 investigating the occurrence that you were in shock? 12 A. I don't recall. 13 Q. Did you -- Strike that. 14 Is there anything more important in the 15 world after you handcuff this guy besides finding the 16 gun that you believe you saw? 17 A. I looked for a gun. 18 Q. Okay. I didn't ask you that. Is there 19 anything more important at that time in the whole 20 world besides finding that gun to you? 21 22 A. I was in shock, sir. I -- I wasn't even sure what my injuries were. 23 Q. Let's assume your partner wasn't in shock. 24 A. I'm sorry? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 286 1 Q. Let's assume your partner was not in shock, 2 for your benefit. 3 you think you saw a gun and now you've handcuffed the 4 guy with his hands in front, who can move his arms, 5 he's sitting in the same vehicle where you said the 6 gun was, should your partner be obligated to look for 7 that gun until he finds it so that the two of you 8 don't get shot by a guy sitting right next to you out 9 the window? 10 11 If you guys are telling us that MR. HURD: Objection, compound question. BY THE WITNESS: 12 A. I looked, and my partner looked. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. I went to the hospital, sir. 15 Q. Did you open one door to the vehicle to look 16 Was it an exhaustive search? for this imaginary gun? 17 A. The only door that I tried to open was the 18 driver's-side door, and it would not open. 19 look, and I did not find a gun. I did 20 Q. Why didn't you open any of the other doors? 21 A. Because I went into shock. 22 Q. So when you went into shock, what did you A. I don't recall. 23 24 do? The only thing I remember BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 287 1 2 3 is getting in the ambulance. Q. Were you standing or sitting waiting for the ambulance? 4 A. I don't remember. 5 Q. Did you walk through the scene with a 6 detective at the scene before you left with the 7 ambulance? 8 A. I don't think I did, no. 9 Q. Did you come back from the ambulance and the 10 No, I did not. hospital and go back and walk the scene? 11 A. Afterwards, yes. 12 Q. How long afterwards? 13 A. I don't recall. 14 Q. Did you look in the car at that time when 15 you came back? 16 A. No, I did not. 17 Q. Why not? 18 A. Because I was waiting to do the walk-through 19 20 21 with the detectives and the street deputy. Q. And did you walk through the car with the detectives and street deputy? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Why didn't you look for the gun then? 24 A. Because I was giving them -- I was doing a BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 288 1 walk-through with them and letting them know what I 2 saw. 3 Q. And did you tell them you saw a gun? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. All right. Did you feel it was important 6 after shooting and killing a guy that if you thought 7 there was a gun there that you actually find the gun, 8 if for nothing else but to defend yourself? 9 A. I'm sorry. 10 Q. Sure. Could you rephrase the question? You've been a police officer for a 11 long time. I'm sure that you've heard that if you 12 shoot and kill a guy, for your own benefit it would 13 have been better, although not lucky by any means -- 14 it would have been better that the guy actually had a 15 weapon than not having a weapon; is that a fair 16 statement? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. Well, if you shoot a guy and he doesn't have 19 a weapon, you just murdered somebody, right? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Why not? 22 A. Because it's what I reasonably believed at 23 24 that time. Q. Okay. So if you shoot a guy and he doesn't BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 289 1 have a weapon, and he really doesn't have a weapon, 2 is it okay to shoot him? 3 A. No, I would say it's not okay to shoot him. 4 But that's not -- you know, that's not what -- what I 5 saw. I saw a gun. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. I heard gunshots. 8 Q. And if you think you saw a gun, it would be 9 Well -- much better for you personally, on the job and 10 otherwise, and even in this litigation if you were to 11 find the gun; would you agree? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. And you spent exactly, what, two seconds 14 sticking your head in the car to see if you saw the 15 gun, and that's the extent of your search for this 16 weapon; is that true? 17 A. No, it's not true. 18 Q. Tell me what else you did. 19 A. I know that I did look. 20 Q. Tell me what you did, please. 21 I don't recall -- Define for me or describe for me what you did to find it. 22 A. I just did, Mr. O'Connor. 23 Q. You just stuck your head in the car and 24 looked around. How long did it take you to do that? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 290 1 A. I don't recall. 2 Q. What's your best estimate? 3 A. I don't recall. 4 Q. Well, as you're standing over this 5 gentleman, you've handcuffed him now. 6 in the window of the car. 7 the car looking around for this weapon? You're leaning How long did you lean in 8 A. I don't recall. 9 Q. Were you even looking for the weapon when 10 you were looking around the car at that time, or not? 11 A. Yes, of course I was. 12 Q. Was that all you were looking for? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You weren't looking to see if there's 15 anybody hiding in the backseat or anything like that? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did you look in the backseat? 18 A. I don't recall if I looked in the backseat 19 or not. 20 Q. Okay. So what's the outside most time you 21 would have stuck your head in that car for the 22 purpose of looking for that weapon? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. All right. At any time after that, did you BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 291 1 at any time open any door to the vehicle to look for 2 the weapon? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did your partner? 5 A. I don't know. 6 Q. If you had incapacitated Mr. Castellanos, 7 would it be your obligation to not continue to fire 8 at him? 9 A. I'm sorry? 10 Q. If you neutralized Mr. Castellanos, would it 11 be your obligation to cease firing at him because the 12 person has been neutralized? 13 A. If the threat has been neutralized, yes. 14 Q. So if at any time before you fired the 15 fifteenth bullet Mr. Castellanos was no longer able 16 to injure anybody, if he tried to, then you should 17 have stopped shooting him, right? 18 A. I'm sorry. I don't understand the question. 19 Q. Let's say on Bullet No. 11 Mr. Castellanos 20 becomes incapacitated. At that point in time you 21 should stop shooting at him so the guy might actually 22 survive a very bad day, right? 23 A. If the threat has been neutralized, yes. 24 Q. Okay. And you've told us all about your BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 292 1 efforts, to whatever extent they are, to see if the 2 threat has been neutralized, or lack of efforts; is 3 that right? 4 A. 5 Mr. O'Connor. 6 Q. 7 A. 9 threat. 10 Q. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 So you told me all about every effort that you made to see if he was neutralized; is that right? 8 11 There was never a lack of effort on my part, I continued to shoot to eliminate the Okay. Do we agree that you should never shoot an unarmed man? A. I -- I would never want to shoot an unarmed man, no. Q. Okay. So do you agree with me that you should not as an officer ever shoot an unarmed man? A. It depends on the scenario, the situation. We were making decisions in split seconds. Q. So is it okay in your mind to shoot an unarmed man as an officer? A. No, it's not okay. But what I'm trying to 21 say is, is that I don't have that luxury to hit the 22 pause button. 23 in split seconds. 24 Q. Okay. This thing is happening very rapidly, You said that there were two bullets BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 293 1 fired that you think came from inside the car; is 2 that a fair statement? 3 4 A. I heard -- I saw a gun. I heard two gunshots, yes. 5 Q. All right. Do you think those bullets came 6 from inside the car, or do you have any idea where 7 they came from? 8 9 10 11 A. They -- I saw the glass being blown out, so that would -- I saw, you know, the gun inside the car. Q. Okay. Were there any other bullets that you 12 attribute to coming from that vehicle, if any, while 13 you fired 19 between you and your partner? 14 A. I don't understand. 15 Q. All right. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. -- you're telling me that you think came 18 The first two shots -- from inside the car? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. All right. After that, the last 19 shots in 21 this entire event, without question in your mind came 22 from you and your partner? 23 A. Our shots are accounted for. 24 Q. There are 19 shots? BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 294 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. They're the only other 19 shots besides -- 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. -- the two gunshots that you say you heard? 5 A. I heard two gunshots. 6 Q. Okay. So there's two gunshots, plus 7 19 more. 21 gunshots would have been heard that 8 night as you understand it, right? 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. Well, I mean, is there -- you're not using a 11 12 13 silencer or anything, right? A. Well, Mr. O'Connor, again, this is happening very, very fast. 14 Q. It's two years later. You know that there's 15 19 bullets -- 16 A. Two years is a long time. 17 Q. -- fired after you said that there's two 18 bullets fired to begin with. So that's 19 bullets, 19 plus two, 21 shots were fired, the last 19 of which 20 came from you and your partner -- 21 A. I don't know that. 22 Q. -- is that what you're saying? 23 A. I do not know that. 24 Q. Okay. So do you believe that your partner BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 295 1 may have fired earlier than after the two bullets? 2 In other words, did he fire one of the first two? 3 A. I don't recall. 4 Q. All right. I don't know. Let's assume worst-case 5 scenario, that the first two shots came from the car 6 hypothetically. 7 but hypothetically let's say that that's the case. 8 Then you and your partner fire your 19 bullets. 9 Throughout those 19 bullets did it ever occur to you 10 to pause and see if maybe the situation calmed down 11 and you didn't have to fire another shot? 12 13 A. I don't believe that for a minute, life. I was in fear for my life and my partner's I continued -- 14 Q. So please answer my question. 15 A. I'm trying to answer your question. 16 17 18 I continued to shoot until the threat was neutralized. Q. Did it ever occur to you to pause, slow down, and see if the event would dissipate? 19 A. Things happen very fast. 20 Q. So did you -- did you at any point in time 21 attempt to slow down the situation by stopping your 22 shooting? 23 A. I did stop, sir. 24 Q. You stopped at one point in time when you BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 296 1 2 shot your fifteenth bullet; is that right? A. I was on the ground, I came up, I fired, and 3 then I moved to another location and fired again. 4 there was a pause, but it happened very, very fast. 5 Q. Okay. So Is there any reason you couldn't have 6 stopped for 30 seconds and see if the guy was doing 7 anything that actually matters? 8 9 10 11 12 A. He was doing something. He was tracking me. He was threatening. His arms were extended. I thought he was trying to kill me and my partner. Q. Did Mr. Castellanos ever attempt to get out of the vehicle? 13 A. I don't recall. 14 Q. Did he open any of the doors? 15 A. I don't -- no, not that I recall. 16 Q. Did Mr. Castellanos's children have anything 17 to do with this event? 18 A. Absolutely not. 19 Q. So if their father did not have a gun and 20 you and your partner shot the wrong guy, whether 21 there was some other person with a gun that got into 22 the neighborhood and went away without you guys so 23 much as following him or telling anybody about him or 24 not, should his children be punished by losing their BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 297 1 father? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Do you believe that his children should have 4 a right to bring a claim if their father was 5 wrongfully killed? 6 A. It's their choice. 7 Q. Has any of your training ever told you that 8 it's better to shoot to injure somebody rather than 9 shoot to kill them? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you ever in any fashion seek to inquire 12 whether Mr. Castellanos had been injured or was in 13 any need of medical attention prior to shooting at 14 him? 15 A. I never had a chance. 16 Q. Did you make any observation as to any 17 sobriety or lack of sobriety related to 18 Mr. Castellanos before you started shooting at him? 19 A. I'm sorry? 20 Q. Did you make any observations as to 21 Mr. Castellanos's sobriety or other condition prior 22 to shooting at him? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Pat Camden gave some reports on the news. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 298 1 Did you see that? 2 A. I -- I don't think I did. 3 Q. All right. 4 Pat Camden you know is the guy who is the spokesman for the FOP; is that correct? 5 A. I guess. 6 Q. Gray-haired guy, you've seen him at a 7 million FOP functions, see him on the news about 8 every Friday, have you seen this guy before? 9 A. Yeah, I probably have seen him on the TV. 10 Q. Did you give any information to Pat Camden 11 about being shot or being shot at? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you know who gave Pat Camden his 14 information that said that yourself and your partner 15 were shot at and in fact hit by bullets and returned 16 fire? 17 A. I don't know who spoke to Pat Camden. 18 Q. If Pat Camden were to have told the people 19 of the city of Chicago on the news that you and your 20 partner were shot and hit by any bullet, that would 21 not be a true statement; would you agree? 22 A. I would disagree with that. 23 Q. Were you shot and hit by a bullet? 24 A. I don't know. BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 299 1 Q. You don't know if you were shot? 2 A. There were bullet holes in my vest. 3 Q. Are there bullet holes in you? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. Not that I recall. 7 Q. So where is the bullet? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. All right. Were any bullets lodged in your vest? Well, if you were going to tell 10 somebody that you were shot and hit by a bullet, you 11 should tell the truth, right? 12 A. I am telling the truth, sir. 13 Q. Okay. 14 or not? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. So if you don't know the answer, why would 17 So were you shot and hit by a bullet you tell somebody that you were hit by a bullet? 18 A. I never said that, sir. 19 Q. Okay. So my point is, if Mr. Camden were to 20 have told somebody that you said, for instance, that 21 you were hit by a bullet, that would not be a correct 22 statement; is that correct? 23 24 A. I don't know. I don't know if I was. didn't talk to Pat Camden. I BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 300 1 2 Q. Well, Pat Camden shouldn't know more about whether you shot than you, should he? 3 A. I didn't talk to Pat Camden. 4 Q. I know. My point is, you don't know if you 5 were hit by a bullet, so you wouldn't tell Pat Camden 6 that you were hit by a bullet. 7 never tell everybody in the city of Chicago on the 8 news that you were hit by a bullet; do you agree? 9 10 11 12 A. vest. I -- sir, there were bullet holes in the I don't know if I was hit or not. Q. So should Pat Camden have reported to the public that you were shot or not? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. All right. 15 So Pat Camden should Should your -- you know your partner was not shot; is that correct? 16 A. I don't know if he was shot. 17 Q. Well, you sat across the table from him a 18 week ago and listened to him swear under oath that he 19 was not shot. 20 A. I do not recall. 21 Q. You don't recall a week ago? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Okay. 24 Do you remember that? It was a long day. Is there -- and I only ask you this not to be a wiseguy. But now that you've brought it BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 301 1 up that you don't recall a lot of things from a week 2 ago, you've said a lot of things about what happened 3 two years ago. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Do you have a memory issue with time, that 6 you have short-term memory, long-term memory issues, 7 anything like that? 8 9 A. None whatsoever, sir. I'd just like to say that, you know, this was a very stressful dynamic 10 situation. 11 my life. 12 not going to recall every single thing that happened 13 that night. 14 nothing wrong with my memory, sir. 15 MR. O'CONNOR: 16 17 It happened very fast. I was in fear for I was in fear for my partner's life. It's been almost two years. I'm There's Move to strike the nonresponsive portion of the answer. I may have some other stuff, Matt, like 18 before that comes up in terms of whatever 19 documents we deal with moving forward. 20 we have a few minutes left on the tape now. 21 didn't know if you wanted to ask anything, so I 22 will relinquish the witness at this time. 23 MR. HURD: 24 MR. O'CONNOR: I know I I have no questions. Okay. So we're going to be BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 302 1 going off the record at this point in time. 2 you could please give us the time spent thus far 3 today, that would be appreciated. 4 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Can I do that off the record? 6 MR. O'CONNOR: 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Yes, sir. All right. Thank you. 8 This will now conclude today's testimony. 9 will conclude Videotape No. 4. 10 11 12 If This We're going off the record at 4:45 p.m. (WHEREUPON, signature was reserved and the deponent was excused.) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 303 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS EASTERN DIVISION MICHELLE CASTELLANOS, as Independent Executor of the Estate of ESAU CASTELLANOS, ) ) ) ) Plaintiff, ) ) vs. ) ) CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER SHAWN ) LAWRYN, CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER ) JUAN MARTINEZ, and CITY OF ) CHICAGO, a municipal corporation, ) ) Defendants. ) No. 14 C 1841 11 I, SHAWN LAWRYN, state that I have read the 12 foregoing transcript of the testimony given by me at 13 my deposition on the 10th day of February, 2015, and 14 that said transcript constitutes a true and correct 15 record of the testimony given by me at said 16 deposition except as I have so indicated on the 17 errata sheets provided herein. 18 ________________________ SHAWN LAWRYN 19 20 21 22 23 24 No corrections (Please initial) ____________________ Number of errata sheets submitted ____________(pgs.) SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN to before me this ________ day of __________________, 2015. _________________________ NOTARY PUBLIC BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 304 1 ERRATA SHEET 2 CASE NAME: Castellanos v. Lawryn, et al. 3 CASE NUMBER: 14 C 1841 4 WITNESS: OFFICER SHAWN LAWRYN 5 REPORTER: Kathy A. O'Donnell 6 I wish to make the following changes for the following reasons: 7 8 PAGE LINE 9 _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Signed:__________________________Date:______________ BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 305 1 ERRATA SHEET 2 CASE NAME: Castellanos v. Lawryn, et al. 3 CASE NUMBER: 14 C 1841 4 WITNESS: OFFICER SHAWN LAWRYN 5 REPORTER: Kathy A. O'Donnell 6 I wish to make the following changes for the following reasons: 7 8 PAGE LINE 9 _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ _____ _____ CHANGE:_______________________________ REASON:_______________________________ 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Signed:__________________________Date:______________ BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 306 1 CERTIFICATE 2 OF 3 CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER 4 5 I, Kathy A. O'Donnell, a Certified Shorthand 6 Reporter of the State of Illinois, CSR License 7 No. 084-004466, do hereby certify; 8 9 That previous to the commencement of the examination of the aforesaid witness, the witness was 10 duly sworn by me to testify the whole truth 11 concerning the matters herein; 12 That the foregoing deposition transcript was 13 stenographically reported by me and was thereafter 14 reduced to typewriting under my personal direction 15 and constitutes a true and accurate record of the 16 testimony given and the proceedings had at the 17 aforesaid deposition; 18 19 That the said deposition was taken before me at the time and place specified; 20 21 22 23 24 BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900 307 1 That I am not a relative or employee or 2 attorney or counsel for any of the parties herein, 3 nor a relative or employee of such attorney or 4 counsel for any of the parties hereto, nor am I 5 interested directly or indirectly in the outcome of 6 this action. 7 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I do hereunto set my 8 hand at Chicago, Illinois, this 25th day of February, 9 2015. 10 11 12 13 14 _________________________________ KATHY A. O'DONNELL, CSR, RPR CSR License No. 084-004466 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 BUCHANAN REPORTING, INC. - (312) 670-0900