2.05 AM: Deputy D.A. John Howard interviews Sirhan HOWARD: You understand you have the right to remain silent? You have the right to have an attorney if you wish. If you cannot afford an attorney, you understand the court will appoint an attorney for you? You have no right to make a statement. You understand that? Now, understanding those rights, now bear with me for a minute…do you think that you want to make a statement now? Do you understand your rights first of all? SIRHAN: Sir, I said I shall remain incognito. HOWARD: You do not wish to make a statement. Is that correct? I have to have that. It sounds funny but… SIRHAN: I said it, sir. HOWARD: Okay, can we get this far? Would you tell me your name? Can we go that far? If you don’t wish to, that’s your business. SIRHAN: That’s it, sir. I said I wish to remain incommunicado. HOWARD: Okay, fine. Okay, let’s go. 3.15 AM: Sirhan talks to Officer Frank Foster in Central Jail FOSTER: Been married for a little while. The wife doesn't like this graveyard-shift too well. VOICE: Do you smoke? SIRHAN: I don't really smoke but I'll oblige you if you want me to smoke with you. Thank you. FOSTER: If you don’t want to smoke…You smoke cigars. You smoke cigars? SIRHAN: Thank you, you’re very generous. VOICE: He wouldn’t give you a cigar. He doesn’t have any. SIRHAN: What does a job like this pay? FOSTER: Well, let's see... SIRHAN: What do you call this? - your official… FOSTER: Well, I'm a policeman…see, I'm just working in the jail system. See, they have policemen out in the field in uniform, like in a blue uniform, and then, of course, they have to have policemen in here, too. So... SIRHAN: Is there any difference in pay? FOSTER: No, no, it's all the same. SIRHAN: Responsibilities and requirements. FOSTER: It’s all the same. Different responsibilities, of course. But it’s all the same. So when you come on the job, it’s all the same, you know. SIRHAN: That’s a fine-looking moustache you got. FOSTER: How’s that? SIRHAN: I like your moustache. FOSTER: Oh yeah, it’s been going about a week and a half now. I have a blond, kind of reddishblond beard, so it’s gonna be pretty wild. SIRHAN: Don’t shave it, though. FOSTER: Huh? SIRHAN: Don’t shave it when you get it raised. FOSTER: No, I’m going to leave it long. SIRHAN: Long. FOSTER: Yeah, I’m going on vacation in July, and I’m going to grow a whole beard, a full beard. I’m going to really let myself go. Do you like to shave? I hate it. SRHAN: I hate to shave. FOSTER: It tears my face up all the time. Hi! HOWARD: Hi! SIRHAN: Hello. HOWARD: Did you get cleaned up? SIRHAN: Well, I don’t look very presentable. JORDAN: It’s not a perfect fit. HOWARD: It doesn’t fit me. SIRHAN: Yeah, how about that, do you want to trade? HOWARD: Mine wouldn’t fit you either, would they? SIRHAN: I wish you could accommodate me more. HOWARD: You know where we are now? Have I told you you’ve been… SIRHAN: I don’t know. HOWARD: You are in custody. You’ve been booked. You understand what I’ve been… SIRHAN: I have been before a magistrate, have I or have I not, sir? HOWARD: No, you have not. You will be taken before a magistrate as soon as possible…We’re not communicating very well up to now but you’re in downtown Los Angeles, okay? This is the main jail for the L.A. Police Department. You’ll be booked into a cell. I don’t know exactly where, and I don’t want to know where, but it will be around here – you understand that? I mean, you know where L.A. is and all those things? Okay? So far? SIRHAN: So far…you’re a good man, Mr Jordan. JORDAN: I don’t know about that. SIRHAN: How do you mean? JORDAN: Well… SIRHAN: If a person doesn’t know himself, sir, well, really… JORDAN: Well, okay, I think I am. SIRHAN: Beautiful. JORDAN: You think? SIRHAN: How about you, Mr…you got an children, family, or what are you? HOWARD: I’ve got children. How about you? Huh? SIRHAN: Do you plan to train them in this business of prosecution? HOWARD: No, they’re girls. SIRHAN: Oh…what are you thinking, Sarge? JORDAN: I’m the low man on the totem pole; do you follow me? SIRHAN: You’re the best man. JORDAN: Well, thank you, that’s… SIRHAN: I mean that, sir, with all my sincerity. JORDAN: Well, I’m trying to do this like I think it should be done, properly. Now, I hope it’s right. SIRHAN: I respect you for that, sir. JORDAN: I think it’s right, and I hope if you agree, why that…that makes me feel I’m on the right track, anyway. Has everybody been treating you okay? SIRHAN: Very fine. JORDAN: Okay. SIRHAN: And I appreciate it. JORDAN: Well, that went out with the dark ages, I hope, you know. SIRHAN: I hope so, I hope so. JORDAN: No, no, believe me. As long as you're with this Department, you will be treated properly. That's a...I promise you. SIRHAN: I will hold you to that. JORDAN: You hold me to that. I mean that. If anybody mistreats you in any way, you let me know and I will see that something is done. I mean that now because that’s not part of…I have a job, and I like to do it, and I do it properly, right? SIRHAN: I respect you for that, really. JORDAN: I mean that though, seriously. Give us a call if… SIRHAN: Thank you. HOWARD: Okay, I’ve got to go to work. SIRHAN: You going to work? HOWARD: Yeah. MELENDRES: Young man? SIRHAN: Yes, sir. MELENDRES: Let’s be friendly and manly here for a second, will you? We have a job to do… SIRHAN: Yes, sir. MELANDRES: You understand this, don’t you? I’m Sgt Melendres and this is Sgt Jordan, and you have been talking to Mr Howard. Now, do you want to talk to us about the incident at the Ambassador, or don’t you? Were you at the Ambassador tonight? SIRHAN: Well, look, Mr Jordan, again Mr… MELENDRES: Melendres. SIRHAN: I must act right for a minute and say that when he informed me of my constitutional rights, the first thing he said, that I have the right to remain silent. MELENDRES: This is correct. This is absolutely correct. SIRHAN: This is basic America jurisprudence, no? MELENDRES: Right. HOWARD: No argument. MELENDRES: But we have to leave here, at least ask you if you want to talk to us about the incident. HOWARD: You have to give up the right, to talk to us, if you want – that’s your choice. SIRHAN: ‘Your choice?’ HOWARD: That’s your choice, no one else in the world can make it. MELANDRES: We’re talking man to man now. Mr Jordan, as a legitimate law-enforcement officer, advised you of your consititutional rights. Now, you have the right to give up these rights, if you want to tallk to us, you can talk to us. This is your privilege. Now, you want to talk to us about the incident tonight? You want to at least give us your name? SIRHAN: I thought, sir, you had mine. HOWARD: John Doe. SIRHAN: John Doe. HOWARD: Now, what’s your real name? SIRHAN: Really, what came up with it? HOWARD: Now, that…here’s what we come down to, John, whatever your name is… SIRHAN: Doe. HOWARD: John Doe. When it comes right down to it, at some point in time, you may want to make a statement, that has to be up to you. You’ve had your rights explained to you. We’ve bee here for some time now trying to talk to you to find out if you wanted to talk to us. Now, I’ll leave your our numbers, we’d like to talk to you tonight. We’d like to bring a stenographer in here, take down a reported statement, your statement… SIRHAN: Uh huh. HOWARD: As to what occurred in the last four hours before you came here. That’s what we’d like to do. You have no obligation to make that statement. SIRHAN: Hell, I’m no movie star that wants all that much… HOWARD: Fine, that’s up to you. SIRHAN: Jesus Christ. HOWARD: Fine, that’s good enough for me. Okay? If you decide you don’t, want to change your mind… MELENDRES: You have our names and you can reach us. SIRHAN: What time is it, Mr Jordan? JORDAN: It’s twenty minutes to four. SIRHAN: I’m allowed 72 hours before I’m brought before a magistrate, no? JORDAN: Maximum is 48. SIRHAN: 48, well… JORDAN: It’s court days now… SIRHAN: Court…you have that many hours minus to…before I’m brought before a magistrate. MELENDRES: Right, that’s correct. HOWARD: You will be brought before a magistrate probably. I’ll talk to the guy out there and see if they’ve got any smaller pants, okay? SIRHAN: Thank you. JORDAN: He’s slender, that kind of hurts me. (Later) SIRHAN: The word ‘justice’ itself puzzles me sometimes, you know, what is it? What is it, sir? MURPHY: Fair play. SIRHAN: Well, would you consider…well, again, let’s pursue it further. What is fair play? MURPHY: Equality in… SIRHAN: Well, you know, that is not…really, you’re coming back to justice again. MURPHY: Alright, what do you say justice is? SIRHAN: I don’t know. I’m asking you. MURPHY: Well, fair play is only that you don’t take advantage of anybody. SIRHAN: Right. Treat others as you would want them to treat you, that’s what Christ said. Beautiful thing. MURPHY: Do you go along with that? SIRHAN: Very much so, sir. Very much so. MURPHY: Do you have any particular religious convictions? SIRHAN: My conscience. MURPHY: Is that all? SIRHAN: What more do you want, sir? MURPHY: Well SIRHAN: Really, you were saying that yourself, sir. The fact that you gotta live with it, you know. If you can’t live with it… MURPHY: That’s right…Now, the interesting part of it, one of the interesting things, is to find out exactly who John Doe is. That's what we're interested in. SIRHAN: Really, you know that's beautiful. Beautiful. Maybe we should keep it interesting.” MURPHY: We have to, I guess. Because you're the doctor there. But it's going to be interesting to see who John Doe really is. And really… SIRHAN: Speak up, man! MURPHY: You're just sort of matching wits with us. SIRHAN: There's a horse named that. MURPHY: What? SIRHAN: Matching Wits. MURPHY: Is there? SIRHAN: Or something to that effect. MURPHY: Anyway, that's sort of what we're doing, aren't we? SIRHAN: Well, I think it's like I said, you know, I'm always open for any kind of a intellectual, educational...anything that would, you know, benefit my mind, as well with whatever I can contribute to the helpfulness or benefit of the conversation. Really, what more can you ask, sir? MURPHY: Well, of course, you could have a nice conversation and everything… SIRHAN: Thanks to you, sir. MURPHY: But you could also make our job a lot easier. SIRHAN: Again, you might lose interest in the mystery. MURPHY: Oh, we're not going to lose interest. Jusst knowing who John Doe is is not going to answer any questions. SIRHAN: Well, obviously you know who John Die is, you gave him that name. MURPHY: Well, that’s the name we’ve gotta use when we haven’t got anything better to use. SIRHAN: There he is! JORDAN: D’you miss me? SIRHAN: What’s the good word? JORDAN: I don’t think you missed me. SIRHAN: Yes, I did. What did I say? Did I say… MURPHY: We were talking about John Does. JORDAN: John Doe. I can’t think of a man that’s more qualified to speak on John Does. MURPHY; John Does. SIRHAN: Well, I can explain. JORDAN: Huh? You’ve become… SIRHAN: What did you find out, Mr Jordan? JORDAN: You’ve become fond of John Doe? SIRHAN: Well, Frank liked it, so it’s just fine. You know, I’m always agreeable. JORDAN: You know…you know what we do. Do you have any objections to telling us what you’ve done in your illustrious past here, I mean what type of work you’ve indulged in? SIRHAN; Beautiful. Beautiful. I love the implication here. JORDAN: I’m sorry, I pick these up. It was unintended, really. SIRHAN: How about some more coffee? JORDAN: Do you want more coffee? SIRHAN: Make it a little warmer, it's a little cold. Please, if it's no inconvenience at all. JORDAN: What could be inconvenient at four-thirty in the morning? SIRHAN: Is it four-thirty or five, quarter to five?” MURPHY: Quarter to five. SIRHAN: Are you sure it’s a quarter to five? I had that feeling… MURPHY: You think you can tell what time it is? SIRHAN: ** MURPHY: Do you follow any particular trade? SIRHAN: How do you mean? MURPHY: What kind of work do you do? SIRHAN: Oh, whatever you want me to do. MURPHY: Well, you can tell us something. SIRHAN: Really, everything fascinates me in life, sir. You know, there’s so much to learn that to try to specialise in one thing, you know, you're just jeopardising your knowledge and appreciation of whatever else there is, you know. Like being an investigator. Sure, you want to specialise in it look at what you're missing in other fields of life, you know - law. I mean, Well, investigation isn't law - medicine, science, you know, teaching school. MURPHY: Yeah, but don't you think you can only really do one thing well? SIRHAN: Well, you know, you're limiting yourself, right? Why not try everything? MURPHY: You’re limiting yourself, but do you think you can do more than one thing well? You know the saying… SIRHAN: Well, I mean, are you asking objectively now? MURPHY: Yeah, yeah. SIRHAN: Well, like I said, I can do everything to the best of my ability. Whatever it is, I don’t know. You know, it has to present itself. MURPHY: Well, what does challenge you? SIRHAN: Everything. I said, in life, everything, sir. Life itself is a challenge. MURPHY: You have no particular field that, uh… SIRHAN: When you watch - When I watch a barber, sir, I just stand and watch that barber for hours. From the time I'm watching him I want to be nothing but a barber. You know, if I'm watching a dentist, boy, he fascinates me, and I want to be him. I was talking to Frank here a while ago. The way he talked, you know and described life in this place...really, I was very fascinated, and you know, I was sort of superimposing myself in his position...temporarily. JORDAN: What about some sausage and eggs with your coffee? SIRHAN: If you’ll share it with me…Beautiful. JORDAN: You know me, don’t I taste everything? SIRHAN: How about you, sir? I invite you to come eat. MURPHY: I’ll eat some of it if it… SIRHAN: Wonderful. Sure, no, no, try it, for amiability’s sake. Who was it, Shakespeare, again, that said that, you know, it’s not nice to eat alone or something to that effect? MURPHY: Just for the sake of conversation here, how long do you think it’s going to take us to find out who John Doe really is? SIRHAN: Well, it’s a mystery, sir, you know and hell, Shakespeare is very poetic. He’s a master of mystery, no? Yet he plays around and beats every drum there is and yet preserves his whole… MURPHY: Do you think we’re not going to find out? Who John Doe is? SIRHAN: I – maybe, it’s a good challenge to you, sir. MURPHY: You know, you’re gonna go before a magistrate and you’re gonna be asked what is your true name. What kind of an answer are you gonna give the judge? SIRHAN: Well - John or Jesse Doe, or incommunicado. JORDAN: Jesse Incommunicado. SIRHAN: Yeah, that’s beautiful. MURPHY: You can’t be incommunicado in court. JORDAN: Could I see you hands? Jess, would you mind… SIRHAN: Oh God, I got rolled about a hundred… JORDAN: No, no, I don’t want to… SIRHAN: Help yourself, help yourself. JORDAN: I just want to look. I want to see if you do as little work as I do. You obviously work with your brains, not your hands. SIRHAN: To the contrary, sir, I work with everything that brings up itself. Like I said, he asked me what do I like? Whatever comes up, whatever work is required… JORDAN: Would it be a fair assumption to say you are not a regular ditch digger, for example, with big callouses from digging? SIRHAN: Well, if I had to dig my front lawn to put a sprinkler system in, how else would I do it but dig it? JORDAN: Then, it would blister, right? Because you and I are not equipped to handle work like that. We could toughen up in a few days, but you sound like you hate yard work like I do. SIRHAN: I love it, sir, I love it. JORDAN: You mean you like to work in the yard? SIRHAN: I love it. JORDAN: You mean sincerely? SIRHAN: Sincerely. If the yard is nice to start with. You know, if it’s well organised, landscaped and set. JORDAN: Well, now, what you’re saying is, you like to keep up a nice yard but you don’t like to do the dirty work getting it in in the first place? SIRHAN: No, well, if the job has to be done, sir, it has to be done. You know, you can procrastinate about it. MURPHY: Yeah, but I’d rather go play golf. SIRHAN: Beautiful. But you’re sacrificing whatever it is, the pleasure or, you know, whatever it is you’re not – avoiding to do. MURPHY: That’s right. I avoid it all I can. SIRHAN: Beautiful. What’s the latest? What’s your score? What’s your par in golf? MURPHY: Not very good. I’m a 19 handicap. SIRHAN: I don’t even know the first thing about golf. You know, you go back 18 or is it 9? And you come back 9? In Scotland? That’s the only thing I know about it. JORDAN: Scotland? That’s a – they play a lot of golf over there, that’s right…You mechanically inclined, machines? SIRHAN: Really, I’m inclined towards everything, sir, that presents… JORDAN: You’re inclined, do you have any particular skill with one… SIRHAN: I don’t…if I watch a barber for two hours, you know, for cutting hair, that would interest me, you know, I just go in there and you know, and start dancing the way he sticks those scissors. JORDAN: You’ve got a good action there, maybe you should be a barber. SIRHAN: I was telling you, I would want to be him for that moment, and then if I see a dentist drilling holes, then I’d want to be him, too, you know, I’d watch him and learn about him and whatever – you know, if I see a beautiful waitress in a bar or in a soda fountain, you know, I’d like to see how she’d like to stay there, soda and malt, whatever - there’s something in it. You know, something you get to know. JORDAN: Let me ask you something, do you… SIRHAN: I was telling Frank here…he was telling me about that book he was reading and his life and his kids, and what have you, and his life in the jail at night down here. Really, I sort of put myself into his shoes for a minute, you know, and felt how…sort of felt how he lives, you know… (Later) JORDAN: You’ll admit in our society, we all do go by titles in the form of names. Now, you know Mr Murphy’s name, you know my name and we don’t – we don’t know your name and naturally we want to find out. MURPHY; I’m mainly curious about who you are, where you’re from? That’s really what I’m curious about. SIRHAN: Well, really, you’ve taken so many prints, really, with all the technology we got in this country, you… JORDAN: No, listen… MURPHY; Well, you can’t do it just like that. It takes time. JORDAN: A lot of places have to be checked. SIRHAN: How do you mean? JORDAN: We took your fingerprints. We checked you locally, so we know that locally, we have no record of you here, right? You know as far as Los Angeles is concerned. At least none that has been ascertained at this point, but to check nationally, this is a large country and that takes – even with modern electronic devices – it takes a little while to do it. SIRHAN: About a million of them, or is it more now? JORDAN: Probably more. MURPHY: There’s more prints than that. JORDAN: Then, we’ll have to check immigration, so many places, all these Federal agencies, and you know how many Federal agencies there are and that in itself is a… SIRHAN: A lot of bureaucracy. JORDAN: A staggering figure right there. SIRHAN: A lot of bureaucracy. A lot of red tape…Well, a job’s a job. MURPHY: You see how easy it is to cut through that red tape? Just by telling us who you are. Right there, cuts all kinds of red tape. SIRHAN: Sir, if you must have a bowel movement - excuse the topic, just for the sake of disciussion – if you must have a bowel movement, if I must have a bowel movement, if anyone must have a bowel movement, he doesn’t excrete where he is right then, you know, say right here…you go to the toilet, no? MURPHY: Uh huh. SIRHAN: So, the same here, you shouldn’t want to find out who John Doe is, you know, just like that (snaps fingers). You got to walk and find the toilet, no? MURPHY: That’s the hard way to do it. JORDAN: I think I get his message. He feels we should earn our money and earn our keep as investigators to justify our… SIRHAN: I paid…in my taxes. I paid a lot of your wages. Yours, too. JORDAN: That’s right and if you pay taxes, you pay…you help pay our salary. MURPHY: We’re sure earning it. (Laughter) SIRHAN: ** JORDAN: We got a taxpayer here that wants to be sure he gets his dollar’s worth. SIRHAN: You’re God damn right. It’s about time. JORDAN: At least, we want you to feel that your share of the tax dollar that’s going to enforcement in general is being well-spent. (Later) SIRHAN: There he is! MURPHY: Hi! SIRHAN: Hi! Refreshed? MURPHY: Yeah. SIRHAN: How many pounds did you lose? MURPHY: Oh, I didn’t help myself too much. I think we better let him go back. JORDAN: Yeah. You sure you don’t want anything before you go now, to eat? MURPHY: We’re going to arraign you in a little while. You’re going to court. SIRHAN: Please make sure about my attire. JORDAN: Well, I’m not sure about… SIRHAN: Well, can I wear my own? JORDAN: Ah… SIRHAN: Why not? I don’t see why. MURPHY: I don’t think so. I think they took it and booked it, didn’t they? JORDAN; Yeah, I doubt if it’s available. SIRHAN: Well, can you buy me some? JORDAN: Well, we’ll…because they’re not going to embarrass you in front of the… SIRHAN: I would like this all fixed up if at all possible. JORDAN: Well, I don’t – I don’t think we can remove it. SIRHAN: No, but you know… JORDAN: It’s…actually, you look very presentable compared to when I first saw you. You’re clean, you’re neat, your eyes are clear. If we can get you something that fits you a little better, why… (ends at 5.35 AM)