Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 1 of 281 PageID# 4718
1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA
ALEXANDRIA DIVISION
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
vs.
JEFFREY ALEXANDER STERLING,
Defendant.
.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Criminal No. 1:10cr485
Alexandria, Virginia
January 13, 2015
10:00 a.m.

TRANSCRIPT OF JURY TRIAL
BEFORE THE HONORABLE LEONIE M. BRINKEMA
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
VOLUME I
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE GOVERNMENT:

JAMES L. TRUMP, AUSA
DENNIS M. FITZPATRICK, AUSA
United States Attorney's Office
2100 Jamieson Avenue
Alexandria, VA 22314
and
ERIC G. OLSHAN, Deputy Chief
Public Integrity Section of the
Criminal Division
United States Department of
Justice
1400 New York Avenue, N.W.
Suite 12100
Washington, D.C. 20005

FOR THE DEFENDANT:

EDWARD B. MAC MAHON, JR., ESQ.
Law Office of Edward B.
MacMahon, Jr.
107 East Washington Street
P.O. Box 25
Middleburg, VA 20118

(APPEARANCES CONT'D. ON FOLLOWING PAGE)
(Pages 1 - 281)
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION OF STENOGRAPHIC NOTES

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 2 of 281 PageID# 4719
2
1

APPEARANCES:

(Cont'd.)

2

FOR THE DEFENDANT:

BARRY J. POLLACK, ESQ.
MIA P. HAESSLY, ESQ.
Miller & Chevalier Chartered
655 - 15th Street, N.W.
Suite 900
Washington, D.C. 20005-5701

CLASSIFIED INFORMATION
SECURITY OFFICERS:

CHRISTINE E. GUNNING
MAURA PETERSON

ALSO PRESENT:

GERARD FRANCISCO
SA ASHLEY HUNT
JENNIFER MULLIN, ESQ.

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER:

ANNELIESE J. THOMSON, RDR, CRR
U.S. District Court, Fifth Floor
401 Courthouse Square
Alexandria, VA 22314
(703)299-8595

3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 3 of 281 PageID# 4720
3
1

I N D E X

2
Opening Statement by Mr. Trump:

Page 140

Opening Statement by Mr. MacMahon:

Page 157

3
4
5
DIRECT

CROSS

REDIRECT

RECROSS

6
7

WITNESSES ON BEHALF OF
THE GOVERNMENT:

8

Stephen B.

175

192

9

Laurie D.

198

210

219

Zach W.

220

259

274

10
11
12

EXHIBITS

13

MARKED

RECEIVED

14

GOVERNMENT'S:

15

No. 5
6
7
8
10

217
212
267
243
243

13
14
15
132

243
243
243
262

16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 4 of 281 PageID# 4721
4
1

P R O C E E D I N G S

2
3

(Defendant and Prospective Jurors present.)
THE CLERK:

Criminal Case 10-485, United States of

4

America v. Jeffrey Alexander Sterling.

5

trial by jury.

6

the record.

7
8
9
10
11
12

Would counsel please note their appearances for

MR. TRUMP:

Good morning, Your Honor.

MR. OLSHAN:

Good morning, Your Honor.

MR. FITZPATRICK:

MR. MAC MAHON:

18
19

Good morning, Your Honor.

Dennis

Fitzpatrick on behalf of the United States.

14

17

Eric Olshan

on behalf of the United States.

THE COURT:

16

Jim Trump on

behalf of the United States.

13

15

This case comes on for

Good morning.
Good morning, Your Honor.

Edward

MacMahon for Mr. Sterling.
MR. POLLACK:

Good morning, Your Honor.

Barry

Pollack for Mr. Sterling.
MS. HAESSLY:

Good morning, Your Honor.

Mia Haessly

for Mr. Sterling.

20

THE COURT:

Good morning.

21

All right, ladies and gentlemen, you've been

22

summonsed to court today to be considered for service on a jury

23

that is going to hear a criminal case, and our first order of

24

business is to call attendance.

25

called, would you please stand and just say "here" or

So when you hear your name

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 5 of 281 PageID# 4722
5
1

"present"?

Then you may sit.

2

THE CLERK:

No. 1, Maridel Anderson.

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

4

THE CLERK:

5

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

6

THE CLERK:

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

8

THE CLERK:

9

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Juror No. 2, David Anderson.

Here.

Juror No. 4, Ross Banfield.

THE CLERK:

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

12

THE CLERK:

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

14

THE CLERK:

16

Here.

Juror No. 3, Matthew Balser.

10

15

Here.

Present.

Juror No. 5, Donna Beitzel.
Present.

Juror No. 6, Laura Billings.
Here.

Juror No. 7, Kathy Boykin.
(No response.)

THE CLERK:

17

Kathy Boykin.
(No response.)

18

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 8, Kelsey Brosnahan.

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

20

THE CLERK:

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

22

THE CLERK:

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

24

THE CLERK:

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Here.

Juror No. 9, Norman Brown.
Here.

Juror No. 10, Amelie Cagle.
Here.

Juror No. 11, James Carnes.
Here.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 6 of 281 PageID# 4723
6
1

THE CLERK:

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

THE CLERK:

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

THE CLERK:

6
7

Juror No. 13, Arthur Catterall.

THE CLERK:

Chanhmaly Chaleunrath.
(No response.)

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 15, Harish Cherukuri.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

11

THE CLERK:

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

13

THE CLERK:

14
THE CLERK:

Juror No. 16, Gabriel Chu.

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 17, Janice Connally.

Janice Connally.

Juror No. 18, Jan Cunningham.
(No response.)

THE CLERK:

20

Jan Cunningham.
(No response.)

21

THE CLERK:

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

23

THE CLERK:

24
25

Here.

(No response.)

18
19

Here.

(No response.)

16
17

Here.

Juror No. 14, Chanhmaly Chaleunrath.

10

15

Here.

(No response.)

8
9

Juror No. 12, Anne Cassidy.

Juror No. 19, Donna Curtin.
Here.

Juror No. 20, Michelle Dade.
(No response.)

THE CLERK:

Michelle Dade.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 7 of 281 PageID# 4724
7
1
2

(No response.)
THE CLERK:

3
4

Juror No. 21, Chiraphan Davis.
(No response.)

THE CLERK:

5

Chiraphan Davis.
(No response.)

6

THE CLERK:

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

8

THE CLERK:

9
10

Juror No. 22, Charles Davis.

Juror No. 23, Steven Dike.
(No response.)

THE CLERK:

11

Steven Dike.
(No response.)

12

THE CLERK:

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

14

THE CLERK:

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE CLERK:

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

18

THE CLERK:

19
20

Here.

Juror No. 24, Noureddine Elabassi.
Here.

Juror No. 25, Bernard Engel.
Here.

Juror No. 26, Gregory Fabian.
Here.

Juror No. 27, Timothy Fitzgibbon.
(No response.)

THE CLERK:

21

Timothy Fitzgibbon.
(No response.)

22

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 28, Jovelita Fonseca.

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

24

THE CLERK:

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Here.

Juror No. 29, Matthew Friel.
Here.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 8 of 281 PageID# 4725
8
1

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 30, Steven Frith.

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

THE CLERK:

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

THE CLERK:

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

7

THE CLERK:

8

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

9

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 31, Matthew Garofalo.

Here.

Juror No. 33, Kristi Gilmore.
Here.

Juror No. 34, Kristine Gilson.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

11

THE CLERK:

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

13

THE CLERK:

14

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

15

THE CLERK:

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

17

THE CLERK:

19

Here.

Juror No. 32, Diane Gilliam.

10

18

Here.

Here.

Juror No. 35, Paul Glen.
Here.

Juror No. 36, Nancy Gofus.
Here.

Juror No. 37, Amanda Granlund.
Here.

Juror No. 38, Maxine Greenstein.
(No response.)

THE CLERK:

20

Maxine Greenstein.
(No response.)

21

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 39, Cathleen Gregorson.

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

23

THE CLERK:

24

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

25

THE CLERK:

Here.

Juror No. 40, Kathleen Halasz.
Here.

Juror No. 41, Jennie Hamm.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 9 of 281 PageID# 4726
9
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

2

THE CLERK:

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

4

THE CLERK:

5

Juror No. 42, David Harrison.

(No response.)
THE CLERK:

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

8

THE CLERK:

9

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Alan Herman.

THE CLERK:

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

12

THE CLERK:

13

Here.

Juror No. 45, Alberta Hickey.
Here.

Juror No. 46, Dion Hinchcliffe.
(No response.)

THE CLERK:

15

Dion Hinchcliffe.
(No response.)

16

THE CLERK:

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

18

THE CLERK:

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

20

THE CLERK:

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

22

THE CLERK:

23

25

Here.

Juror No. 44, Ivan Hernandez.

10

24

Here.

Juror No. 43, Alan Herman.

6

14

Here.

Juror No. 47, Charles Hoffman.
Here.

Juror No. 48, Keric Hopkins.
Here.

Juror No. 49, Aaron Hunt.
Here.

Juror No. 50, Dega Hussen.
(No response.)

THE CLERK:

Dega Hussen.
(No response.)

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 10 of 281 PageID# 4727
10
1

THE CLERK:

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

THE CLERK:

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

THE CLERK:

6
7

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 52, Nancy Ingalsbe.
Here.

Juror No. 53, Nika Jani.

Nika Jani.
(No response.)

THE CLERK:

10
11

Here.

(No response.)

8
9

Juror No. 51, Andrew Ihle.

Juror No. 54, Leslie Jenson.
(No response.)

THE CLERK:

12

Leslie Jenson.
(No response.)

13

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 55, Angela Keaton.

14

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

15

THE CLERK:

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

17

THE CLERK:

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

THE CLERK:

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

21

THE CLERK:

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

23

THE CLERK:

24

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

25

THE CLERK:

Here.

Juror No. 56, Sozina Khan.
Here.

Juror No. 57, Sandra Khouri.
Here.

Juror No. 58, David Knox.
Here.

Juror No. 59, Steve Lee.
Here.

Juror No. 60, Caitlin Lhommedieu.
Here.

Juror No. 61, Melody Long.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 11 of 281 PageID# 4728
11
1
2

(No response.)
THE CLERK:

3

Melody Long.
(No response.)

4

THE CLERK:

62, Matthew Lowman.

5

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

6

THE CLERK:

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

8

THE CLERK:

9

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Juror No. 63, James Lyke.

THE CLERK:

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

12

THE CLERK:

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

14

THE CLERK:

16

Here.

Juror No. 64, Peter Lynn, Jr.

10

15

Here.

Here.

Juror No. 65, George McCool, II.
Here.

Juror No. 66, Peggy McCoy.
Here.

Juror No. 67, Tracy McGull.
(No response.)

THE CLERK:

17

Tracy McGull.
(No response.)

18

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 68, Vernon Michelsen, Jr.

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

20

THE CLERK:

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

22

THE CLERK:

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

24

THE CLERK:

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Here.

Juror No. 69, Neil Mickelson.
Here.

Juror No. 70, Rebecca Miller.
Here.

Juror No. 71, Amanda Morris.
Here.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 12 of 281 PageID# 4729
12
1

THE CLERK:

2
3

Juror No. 72, Sean Mountcastle.
(No response.)

THE CLERK:

4

Sean Mountcastle.
(No response.)

5

THE CLERK:

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

7

THE CLERK:

8

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

9

THE CLERK:

10
11

Juror No. 73, Thuong Nguyen.
Here.

Juror No. 74, Scott Oden.
Here.

Juror No. 75, Stephen Pace, Jr.
(No response.)

THE CLERK:

12

Stephen Pace, Jr.
(No response.)

13

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 76, Mahesh Panwar.

14

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

15

THE CLERK:

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

17

THE CLERK:

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

THE CLERK:

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

21

THE CLERK:

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

23

THE CLERK:

24

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

25

THE CLERK:

Here.

Juror No. 77, Nicolas Pedrozo.
Here.

Juror No. 78, Nancy Perry.
Here.

Juror No. 79, Maria Pierce.
Here.

Juror No. 80, Manavi Puri.
Here.

Juror No. 81, Margaret Rowe.
Here.

Juror No. 82, Gloria Roy.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 13 of 281 PageID# 4730
13
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

2

THE CLERK:

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

4

THE CLERK:

5

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

6

THE CLERK:

7
8

Juror No. 83, Gregory Scites.
Here.

Juror No. 84, Sidney Shaw.
Here.

Juror No. 85, William Shepard.
(No response.)

THE CLERK:

9

William Shepard.
(No response.)

10

THE CLERK:

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

12

THE CLERK:

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

14

THE CLERK:

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE CLERK:

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

18

THE CLERK:

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

20

THE CLERK:

21
22

Here.

Juror No. 86, Harriet Shriver.
Here.

Juror No. 87, Teresa Simpson.
Here.

Juror No. 88, Christopher Stanley.
Here.

Juror No. 89, Kim Stenberg.
Here.

Juror No. 90, Yvonne Stephens.
Here.

Juror No. 91, Arthur Stewart.
(No response.)

THE CLERK:

23

Arthur Stewart.
(No response.)

24

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 92, George Tobin.

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Here.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 14 of 281 PageID# 4731
14
1

THE CLERK:

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

THE CLERK:

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

THE CLERK:

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

7

THE CLERK:

8
9

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 94, Lien Ngoc Tran.

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 95, Phan Vu.

Juror No. 96, Edward Waters.

Edward Waters.

Juror No. 97, Deborah Weigel.

THE CLERK:

Deborah Weigel.
(No response.)

15

THE CLERK:

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

17

THE CLERK:

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

THE CLERK:

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

21

THE CLERK:

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

23

THE CLERK:

25

Here.

(No response.)

14

24

Here.

(No response.)

12
13

Here.

(No response.)

10
11

Juror No. 93, Sheena Tosta.

Juror No. 98, Debra Williams.
Here.

Juror No. 99, Kristin Witters.
Here.

Juror No. 100, Jessica Wood.
Here.

Juror No. 101, Suzanne Yerks.
Here.

Is there anyone here who's here for jury

duty whose name I have not called?
(No response.)

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 15 of 281 PageID# 4732
15
1
2

THE CLERK:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, would

you please stand and raise your right hand.

3

(Prospective Jurors affirmed.)

4

THE COURT:

All right, ladies and gentlemen, as I

5

said earlier, you've been summonsed to court today to be

6

considered for service on a jury which is going to consider a

7

criminal case brought by the United States of America against

8

the defendant, Jeffrey Alexander Sterling.

9

Now, if you are chosen to be a juror, you should

10

think about yourself throughout the trial as if you were a

11

judge just like me.

12

like the one I'm wearing, but I hope you will think of yourself

13

throughout your time as a juror as wearing a black robe.

14

I can't give you each a black robe to wear

Now, we have an expectation of what we find -- what

15

we think a judge should be when he or she comes into the

16

courtroom.

17

the courtroom with an absolutely open mind, with no

18

predispositions, no preconceptions about the issues that he or

19

she has to decide.

20

First and foremost, we want a person who comes into

Obviously, then we need a judge who wouldn't be

21

connected to any of the parties in the case, and so during

22

what's called the voir dire process, which is basically jury

23

selection, I as the presiding judge will be asking all of you a

24

series of questions, and the purpose of these questions is to

25

try to determine which of you would be best suited to sit as a

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 16 of 281 PageID# 4733
16
1

judge in this case.

2

Now, under our American system of law, it is very

3

important for jurors and for judges to keep certain points in

4

mind.

5

judge the issues in this case based solely upon what you see

6

and hear here in the courtroom.

7

important not to let any outside information affect your

8

thinking process.

9

First of all, your job as a juror in this case is to

That means it's extremely

And because of that concern and because this

10

particular case has had a fair amount of media publicity about

11

it, I'm going to be asking you a series of questions, and as

12

you listen to these questions, I want you to think very

13

carefully about whether or not because of any exposure you may

14

have had to any of the issues surrounding this case, you

15

believe you might have trouble in judging this particular case.

16

Now, when I ask you questions, I'm going to use the

17

word "you," but every question applies not to just you

18

individually but also to any of your immediate family members

19

or extremely close personal friends.

20

you have an answer to any of my questions, the way we proceed

21

is for you to raise your hand.

22

So if you believe that

Now, as you can see, we've got a packed courtroom

23

today, and I'm going to have to start by pointing to some of

24

you.

25

across the courtroom, and after about the second or third row,

I normally start on my left in the first row, and I'll go

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 17 of 281 PageID# 4734
17
1

I can't tell in the back where you're seated, so I'll just have

2

to point to you.

3

state your name again, and provide the answer to the question.

You have to stand up when I do point to you,

4

Now, there may be certain questions that generate a

5

response that you feel is a private or personal response or a

6

response that can't be discussed in the open courtroom.

7

that is the case, ask to approach the bench.

8

on (demonstrating) that funny white noise machine, and the

9

purpose of that machine is to block the overall hearing in the

10

If

I will then put

courtroom of what we're talking about here at the bench.

11

Now, it's extremely important that whenever we have a

12

bench conference, and that's not just voir dire but during the

13

trial itself, I don't mind if you stand up and stretch, but if

14

you start to talk or rustle papers or whatever, it becomes

15

harder for us to hear at the bench, and so I ask you please to

16

not talk at any -- during any of those bench conferences.

17

Now, let me just tell you very briefly -- and this is

18

a very, very brief overview of what is at issue in this case

19

today.

20

Jeffrey Alexander Sterling, with certain offenses against the

21

United States.

22

disclosure of national defense information as well as the

23

retention of -- unlawful retention of national defense

24

information, mail fraud, unauthorized conveyance of government

25

property, and obstruction of justice.

As I said, the United States has charged the defendant,

These offenses include the unauthorized

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 18 of 281 PageID# 4735
18
1

These charges arise out of the publication in 2006 of

2

a book entitled State of War, written by James Risen, who is a

3

Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist employed by The New York

4

Times.

5

9 of that book that's at issue in this case, describes a

6

Central Intelligence Agency effort to undermine the progress of

7

Iran's nuclear weapons program by having a person posing as a

8

former Soviet Union nuclear scientist offer to sell nuclear

9

weapon plans to the Iranians.

Specifically, chapter 9 of that book, and it is chapter

The plans were to appear

10

accurate but would, in fact, contain flaws that would mislead

11

the Iranians.

12

Chapter 9 included classified information about the

13

project and the human asset, that is, the physicist, who will

14

be referred to throughout this trial as Merlin.

15

The defendant, Jeffrey Alexander Sterling, was hired

16

by the Central Intelligence Agency, that is, the CIA, in 1993,

17

and he had a Top Secret clearance as an employee of that

18

agency.

19

2000, he was one of Merlin's handlers, and he was involved in

20

the Iranian project.

21

Intelligence Agency ended in or about January 31 of 2002.

22

From December of 1998 through approximately May of

His employment with the Central

Now, the government alleges that, that Mr. Sterling

23

provided information to Risen about Merlin and the Iranian

24

project and that that information was classified and he was not

25

authorized to disclose that information.

That information was

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 19 of 281 PageID# 4736
19
1

ultimately published in 2006, when the State of War book came

2

out.

It was published by the publisher Simon & Schuster.

3

The government further alleges that when the leak of

4

the information became apparent, they began a criminal

5

investigation into the leak, and at one point, Mr. Sterling

6

received a grand jury subpoena to appear concerning that

7

investigation and to bring documents with him, and in the

8

obstruction of justice charge, the government alleges that

9

Mr. Sterling destroyed one of the e-mails that would have been

10

relevant to that investigation.

11

Now, Mr. Sterling has entered not guilty pleas to all

12

of the charges in this case, and that means that he begins this

13

case with a presumption of innocence, and the burden will be on

14

the government throughout this trial to prove Mr. Sterling

15

guilty.

16

case is a burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

17

The burden which the government bears in a criminal

Those of you who are chosen to be the jurors in this

18

case will have to decide the issues that have been raised by

19

the charges brought by the government and by the denial of

20

those charges by the defendant.

21

very serious case, and we therefore need very serious and

22

dedicated persons to be the jurors in this case, so I hope you

23

will listen carefully to the voir dire, and if you have any

24

answers or you want to raise any additional issues with the

25

Court that might address your suitability as a juror, that you

You can see that this is a

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 20 of 281 PageID# 4737
20
1

will let me know.

2

Now, having told you just very briefly what is

3

involved in this case, do any of you believe that you may have

4

seen, heard, read, or in any respect that you might know

5

something about this case?

6

anybody in the first row?

7
8

Yes, ma'am, your name, please?
tell me your name?

9
10

THE COURT:

Harriet Shriver, but just

Wait just one second, ma'am.

I've got to

get your -- the list of names here.
What is your last name?

14

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

15

THE COURT:

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

17

THE COURT:

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

THE COURT:

Shriver.

And you spell that with an "F"?

Sorry.

"S" as in Sam.

Spell your whole last name.
S-h-r-i-v -- as in Victor --

Fine, Ms. Shriver.

I've got you, all

right.

21
22

If you'd stand up,

what I read in the newspaper.

13

20

Is there

Yes.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

11
12

Please raise your hands.

And you've, you've seen something about this case in
the paper?

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yes.

24

THE COURT:

Was that one of the recent

25

All right.

articles?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 21 of 281 PageID# 4738
21
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

2

THE COURT:

Yes.

Do you feel that there is anything in

3

what you read that could affect your ability to judge this case

4

impartially?

5
6
7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I don't know.

I really don't

know at this point.
THE COURT:

You think that there might have been

8

something in the article you read -- was the article about

9

Mr. Risen, the reporter?

10

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

11

THE COURT:

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yes, yes.

And was it in the -I don't remember the whole

13

article, to be perfectly honest, and I didn't skim it, but

14

that's my only association with this.

15

THE COURT:

Having had that kind of a brief contact

16

with this, some of the subject matter, again, do you think that

17

that could affect how you would judge this case?

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

THE COURT:

20

Anybody else in Ms. Shriver's row?

21
22
23

I guess not, no.

All right, thank you, Ms. Shriver.

(No response.)
THE COURT:

Now, in the center section.

And I have

to point to you.

24

Yes, sir, your name, please?

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Jim Carnes, C-a-r-n-e-s.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 22 of 281 PageID# 4739
22
1

THE COURT:

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

Yes, sir.

the testimony of the --

4

THE COURT:

5

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

6

THE COURT:

7

I read the same article about

The reporter?
The reporter.

And that's all.

You did not read

anything over the years?

8

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

9

THE COURT:

No.

Mr. Carnes, is there anything about what

10

you read in that article that you feel might affect your

11

ability to judge this case impartially?

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

13

THE COURT:

14

Anyone else in the first row?

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE COURT:

17

that's all right.

All right, thank you, sir.
How about on the side?

Ross --

All right, you're the second row, but

What's your name, sir?

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

THE COURT:

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

21

Probably not.

Ross Banfield.

How do you spell the last name?
B -- as in boy --

a-n-f-i-e-l-d.

22

THE COURT:

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Same article.

24

THE COURT:

And again, do you feel in any

25

Yes, Mr. Banfield.

All right.

respect that may have affected how you go about judging this

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 23 of 281 PageID# 4740
23
1

case?

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

THE COURT:

4

In the middle section now, yes, sir, your name,

5

All right, thank you, sir.

please?

6
7

I don't believe so.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Neil Mickelson, M -- as in

Mary -- i-c-k-e-l-s-o-n.

8

THE COURT:

I've got it.

9

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Ma'am, I hold a TS/SCI

10

clearance and work for a federal contract in the intelligence

11

community.

12
13

THE COURT:

Have you heard anything about this case

through that?

14

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

15

THE COURT:

16
17

I have, ma'am.

Would that affect your ability to judge

it impartially, do you feel?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I'm not really sure, ma'am.

18

I will also add that I worked for Booz Allen Hamilton, and one

19

of our former employees was recently subject to a similar

20

disclosure.

21

THE COURT:

All right.

Now, again, usually when

22

people have known people in this type of a situation, it can

23

affect their impartiality.

24

difficulties in being impartial in this case?

25

Do you feel you'd have some

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I don't believe so, ma'am.

I

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 24 of 281 PageID# 4741
24
1

don't know any of the personalities in question nor the people

2

in question in either of those cases.

3

THE COURT:

All right, thank you, sir.

4

Yes, your name, please?

5

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

6

THE COURT:

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Juror No. 2, David Anderson.

Yes, sir.
I've worked on classified

8

programs since 1990 for mostly three-letter agencies, including

9

the CIA.

I am familiar with the -- I read the article and am

10

familiar with the circumstance and discussed it with some

11

colleagues.

12

THE COURT:

Do you feel then that you've already made

13

up your mind about issues or that it would be difficult to be

14

impartial in judging this case?

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I would work hard to be

16

impartial and just listen to the facts in the case, so I think

17

I can be impartial.

18

THE COURT:

All right, thank you, Mr. Anderson.

19

Yes, sir, your name, please?

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Bernard Engel.

I've read the

21

most recent article, and I believe there were previous articles

22

about the reporter being let off.

23

THE COURT:

All right.

Now, Mr. Engel, is there

24

anything about what you've read that you feel could affect your

25

impartiality in judging this case?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 25 of 281 PageID# 4742
25
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Well, it raises a few

2

questions about why the government chose to forego the

3

testimony -- or push harder for the testimony from Mr. Risen.

4
5

THE COURT:

And do you feel that that

might affect how you'd go about judging this case?

6
7

All right.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Hard to say.

I'd have to

hear more.

8

THE COURT:

All right, thank you, sir.

9

Anybody on the left side in the second or third rows?

10

(No response.)

11

THE COURT:

All right, let me just take the whole

12

left side at this point.

13

who's had exposure to any of the issues in this case?

14

in the back?

15
THE COURT:
more people?

18
19

Anyone

(No response.)

16
17

Is there anybody on the left side

All right.

In the center, are there any

Yes, your name, please?

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Cagle, C-a-g-l-e, C -- as in

Charlie -- a-g-l-e.

20

THE COURT:

Yes, Ms. Cagle.

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Similar to the others.

Read

22

the article mostly about the reporter, not about the case so

23

much.

24
25

THE COURT:

And do you feel there's anything about

what you read in that article that might affect how you'd judge

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 26 of 281 PageID# 4743
26
1

this case?

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

THE COURT:

4

Anybody else in the center section?

5
THE COURT:

How about on the far right?

Anybody

else?

8
9

All right, thank you, Ms. Cagle.

(No response.)

6
7

I don't think so.

(No response.)
THE COURT:

All right.

Now, have any members of the

10

panel -- to your knowledge, have any of you ever read this book

11

that we've -- the State of War?

12

(No response.)

13

THE COURT:

Nobody.

14

Have any of you to your knowledge other than the

15

newspaper article you recently read, to your knowledge, have

16

you read other articles by James Risen?

17

(No response.)

18

THE COURT:

All right.

Have any of you ever been

19

employed by or ever invested in The New York Times or Simon &

20

Schuster, the publishing house?

21
22
23

(No response.)
THE COURT:

capacity The New York Times or Simon & Schuster, correct?

24
25

So none of you have worked for in any

(No response.)
THE COURT:

And none of you to your knowledge owns

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 27 of 281 PageID# 4744
27
1

stock in either of those entities?

2

(No response.)

3
4

THE COURT:

All right, I'll have counsel at this

point stand up --

5

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Your Honor?

6

THE COURT:

Yes, sir, your name, please?

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

8

THE COURT:

9

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I'm sorry.

No, I need your name first.

10

THE COURT:

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

12

I own a few shares.

Alan Herman, H-e-r-m-a-n.

Yes, Mr. Herman.

Yes, sir.

I own a few shares of The New

York Times.

13

THE COURT:

In any, in any respect, do you feel that

14

might affect how you would judge this case?

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE COURT:

17

Is there anybody else?

18

All right, thank you, sir.

(No response.)

19

THE COURT:

All right, I'll have counsel stand and

20

identify themselves at this time.

21

Mr. Trump.

22
23
24
25

Not at all.

MR. TRUMP:

I'll start with you,

Good morning.

Jim Trump on behalf of the

United States.
MR. OLSHAN:

Good morning.

Eric Olshan on behalf of

the United States.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 28 of 281 PageID# 4745
28
1
2

MR. FITZPATRICK:
the United States.

3
4

THE COURT:

MR. OLSHAN:

With us today is Special Agent Ashley

Hunt from the FBI.

7

THE COURT:

8

MR. OLSHAN:

9

And do you want to identify your case

agents?

5
6

And Dennis Fitzpatrick on behalf of

Anybody else?
Should we identify other personnel as

well?

10

THE COURT:

I think all personnel working with the

11

government should be identified.

12

MR. OLSHAN:

Jennifer Mullin, who's with the Office

13

of General Counsel at the CIA.

14

THE COURT:

15

All right.

And are you going to have a

technical person working with you, Mr. Gerard?

16

MR. FITZPATRICK:

Yes.

Your Honor, we'll also have

17

Gerard Francisco, and perhaps a woman by the name of Pam Benson

18

will be in the courtroom.

19

THE COURT:

All right.

Ladies and gentlemen, do any

20

of you think you might know in any personal or business

21

capacity any of government's attorneys or the case agents?

22

Anybody?

23

(No response.)

24

THE COURT:

You-all may have a seat.

25

Have any members of the panel had any business

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 29 of 281 PageID# 4746
29
1

dealings with the United States Attorney's Office for this

2

district?

3
4

Yes, sir, your name, please?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

serving on the grand jury.

5

THE COURT:

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

7

THE COURT:

8

11

All right, your name, sir?
James Carnes, C-a-r-n-e-s.

And, Mr. Carnes, when did you serve on

the grand jury?

9
10

Only in the grand jury,

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

In the late '80s or early

'90s.
THE COURT:

All right, is there anything about that

12

grand jury experience or your working with prosecutors from the

13

U.S. Attorney's Office that might affect your impartiality in

14

judging this case?

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE COURT:

17

Anybody else?

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

THE COURT:

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No, I don't believe so.

All right, thank you, sir.
Yes, your name, please?
Suzanne Yerks, Y-e-r-k-s.

Yes, Ms. Yerks.
I work for a company named

21

VeriSign, and I've actually seen your name a lot come through

22

on court orders that I handle directly for domain name

23

transcripts and things like that.

24
25

THE COURT:

Ms. Yerks, in any respect, do you feel

that that familiarity with the Court or the U.S. Attorney's

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 30 of 281 PageID# 4747
30
1

Office might affect your impartiality?

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

THE COURT:

4

Anybody else?

All right, thank you, ma'am.

5

(No response.)

6
7

No.

THE COURT:

All right.

Now, have defense -- yes,

ma'am, your name, please?

8

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

9

THE COURT:

Kris Gilson.

How do you spell the last name?

10

THE PROPECTIVE JUROR:

G-i-l-s-o-n.

11

THE COURT:

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yes, ma'am.
I work for the federal

13

government and have been involved on the fringe of several

14

court cases with the attorneys, no one that is here in the room

15

or --

16

THE COURT:

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

18

Administration.

19

Which, which agency do you work with?
I work for the Maritime

We're part of DOT.

THE COURT:

All right.

Is there anything about your

20

work with possibly U.S. attorneys that might affect your

21

impartiality?

22
23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No, I don't believe so,

ma'am.

24

THE COURT:

Thank you, Ms. Gilson.

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Your Honor, can I also bring

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 31 of 281 PageID# 4748
31
1

up one other thing?

2

THE COURT:

Yes, ma'am.

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I'm supposed to be heading

4

out of the country for work next week, and I was excused for

5

next week, but I don't want to impact my service here, but I

6

just wanted to bring that up.

7
8
9

THE COURT:

I don't know how relevant it is.

Is that trip -- can that be changed, or

is it very difficult to change it?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No, it's with the

10

International Maritime Organization.

It's been planned for,

11

you know, a year in advance, and my role is fairly critical as

12

a working group chair.

13

THE COURT:

All right, thank you, Ms. Gilson.

14

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Okay.

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Your Honor?

16

THE COURT:

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

18

THE COURT:

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yes, ma'am, your name, please?
Nancy Perry.

Yes, Ms. Perry.
For full disclosure, I work

20

with general counsel at Northrup Grumman, and we work with the

21

U.S. Attorney's Office.

22

just wanted to make sure that you knew.

23

THE COURT:

I don't have any close contact, but I

All right.

But again, Ms. Perry, do you

24

feel in any respect the work you do with them could affect your

25

impartiality?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 32 of 281 PageID# 4749
32
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

2

THE COURT:

3

Anybody else?

All right, thank you, ma'am.

4

(No response.)

5
6

THE COURT:

MR. MAC MAHON:

MR. POLLACK:
Pollack.

11

Good morning.

THE COURT:

13

law firm.

14

and Washington, D.C.

My office is in Middleburg, Virginia,

I'm a sole practitioner.

MR. POLLACK:

I work in Washington, D.C., for a group

called Miller & Chevalier.

18

THE COURT:

19

MS. HAESSLY:

All right.
Good morning.

My name is Mia Haessly,

and I also work at Miller & Chevalier in Washington, D.C.

21
22

My name is Barry

I want to know if anybody knows your

MR. MAC MAHON:

16

20

I'm an

Counsel, could you identify the firms and

where they're located?

17

I am Edward MacMahon.

I'm also an attorney for Mr. Sterling.

12

15

Now, I'll have counsel for

attorney for Jeffrey Sterling.

9
10

All right.

the defendant as well as Mr. Sterling introduce themselves.

7
8

No, no.

THE COURT:

And, Mr. Sterling, just introduce

yourself.

23

THE DEFENDANT:

Jeffrey Sterling, in Missouri.

24

THE COURT:

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

And you work now in Missouri?
I work outside of Los

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 33 of 281 PageID# 4750
33
1

Angeles.

2

THE COURT:

All right, you-all may have a seat.

3

Ladies and gentlemen, do any of you think you might

4

know either defense counsel or the defendant in any personal or

5

business capacity?

6

Yes?

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

My name is Caitlin

7

Lhommedieu, and I'm familiar with Mr. MacMahon, his firm,

8

having worked in the courthouse, but I don't know him

9

personally.

10
11

THE COURT:
prosecutors?

12
13
14

All right, what about any of the

Do you know any of them?

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I'm not familiar with any of

them.
THE COURT:

Is there anything about your familiarity

15

with Mr. MacMahon that you feel might affect your impartiality

16

as a judge in this case?

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Not at all.

18

THE COURT:

19

Do any members of the panel believe you may have had

All right, thank you, ma'am.

20

any business dealings with either of the two law firms

21

represented by defense counsel or ever have litigated against

22

them or with them?

23

Yes, sir, your name, please?

24

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

25

THE COURT:

Arthur Catterall, C.

Yes, Mr. Catterall.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 34 of 281 PageID# 4751
34
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I'm an attorney with the

2

Justice Department Tax Division and currently have a case where

3

Miller & Chevalier is on the other side.

4

THE COURT:

All right.

Now, Mr. Catterall, do you

5

feel in any respect that might make it difficult for you to sit

6

as a juror in this case?

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

8

THE COURT:

9

Department of Justice.

I don't think so.

Now, you are an employee of the
Do you feel because the U.S. Attorney's

10

Office is part of that agency, that you might have some

11

orientation to favor that side of the case?

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

13

THE COURT:

14

In terms of the Tax Division, that -- is

it the Civil or the Criminal Division?

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE COURT:

17

Civil.

Civil.

Have you had any experience with

criminal law?

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

THE COURT:

20

I don't think so.

No, no.

Have you always practiced on the civil

side of things?

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yes, yes.

22

THE COURT:

Do you understand that if you

All right.

23

were chosen to be a juror, at the end of the case -- and this

24

applies, frankly, to all the jurors -- I give the law that has

25

to be applied as the jury makes its fact-finding?

If I were to

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 35 of 281 PageID# 4752
35
1

state the law a certain way that you might disagree with or

2

think that it's wrong because of what you learned in law school

3

or whatever, can you put aside your personal view of the law

4

and follow that as given by the Court?

5

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

6

THE COURT:

7

Is there anybody else?

8
9

Yes, ma'am.

All right, thank you, sir.

(No response.)
THE COURT:

All right.

Now, as I said earlier, this

10

case involves allegations involving among other things the

11

Iranian nuclear weapons program.

12

mentioned, there's been a great deal of coverage about

13

Mr. Risen, who is a reporter, and the fact that he has

14

throughout this case asserted what's called a newsman's

15

privilege not to reveal any sources of information for any of

16

his articles.

17

about the Central Intelligence Agency lately.

18

Also, as several of you have

There's also been a great deal of publicity

So there's been a lot of news stories circulating

19

about some of the issues or some of the entities or

20

participants in this case.

21

any of you may have seen, read, or heard about any of these

22

issues, do you feel that they could somehow contaminate your

23

ability to judge this case impartially based on the information

24

received just inside this courtroom?

25

What I want to know is from what

So is there anybody who feels that because of the

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 36 of 281 PageID# 4753
36
1

nature of some of these issues, that you might have problems

2

being impartial in judging this case?

3

(No response.)

4

THE COURT:

No?

All right.

5

Do any of you -- I know we already had one or two

6

people who've answered this question, but do any of you have

7

any training in the law, that is, you've attended law school,

8

you work as a paralegal, you are an attorney?

9

now about any legal training or background that any of you

10

have.

11
12

So let me start in the first row.
the left side?

(No response.)

14

THE COURT:

So no lawyers or law training there?

Okay.

16

How about the center section?

17

row, yes, sir, your name again, please?

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

THE COURT:

20

Let's see, the first

Catterall.

Yes, Mr. Catterall.

And you're the Tax

Division Justice Department attorney.

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

22

THE COURT:

23

Again, anybody on

Anybody on the left side at all?

13

15

I want to know

Yes.

All right, thank you, sir.

I think

you've already answered my questions.

24

The lady next to you, yes, your name, please?

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Peggy McCoy.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 37 of 281 PageID# 4754
37
1

THE COURT:

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

THE COURT:

All right.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

7

THE COURT:

8

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

10

I'm an inactive attorney, and

Now, Ms. McCoy, were you ever

in active practice?

6

9

Are you an attorney?

right now I'm the director of the Alexandria Bar Association.

4
5

Yes, Ms. McCoy.

Yes.

What kind of practice did you have?
I did civil litigation

primarily, professional liability defense, with more of a focus
on medical malpractice.

11

THE COURT:

All right.

And now you're the executive

12

director of the Alexandria Bar.

13

about your previous work as an attorney or your current work as

14

the executive director of the Bar that you feel could affect

15

your impartiality in judging this case?

Is there anything first of all

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No.

17

THE COURT:

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No.

19

THE COURT:

Again, can you follow the

You didn't practice any criminal law?

All right.

20

Court's instructions even if you disagree with the Court's

21

proposition of a particular point of law?

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

23

THE COURT:

24

Anybody else in the center section?

25

the aisle.

Yes.

All right, thank you, Ms. McCoy.

Your name, sir?

Let me start on

Yes, yes, sir.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 38 of 281 PageID# 4755
38
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

2

THE COURT:

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Bernard Engel.

Yes, Mr. Engel.
I'm not sure if it counts,

4

but after retirement from the federal government, I worked for

5

several years as a court reporter.

6

THE COURT:

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

8

THE COURT:

9

Did you ever cover anything in this

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No, no.

Strictly, you know,

county, Fairfax.

12
13

Yes.

courthouse?

10
11

Oh, as a court reporter.

THE COURT:

Did you cover both civil and criminal

matters?

14

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Primarily civil.

15

THE COURT:

Is there anything about your

All right.

16

work as a court reporter that you feel might affect your

17

impartiality?

18
19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:
bad attorneys.

20
21
22

(Laughter.)
THE COURT:

25

Very good.

There are only good attorneys

in this courtroom; let me assure you.

23
24

I've seen good attorneys and

(Laughter.)
THE COURT:

And, I'm sorry, can you just spell your

last name for me?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 39 of 281 PageID# 4756
39
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

2

THE COURT:

3

There were more people in Mr. Engel's row.

4

name, please?

All right, thank you, Mr. Engel.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

6

THE COURT:

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

9

Yes, your

Yes, sir.

5

8

E-n-g-e-l.

I'm Gabriel Chu.

Yes, Mr. Chu.
I work as a patent examiner.

I trained in patent law.
THE COURT:

So you're right next door?

10

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Exactly.

11

THE COURT:

Now, Mr. Chu, obviously, you

12

All right.

did take criminal law when you were in law school.

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

14

THE COURT:

15
16
17

Oh, no, I'm not an attorney.

You're a patent examiner.

that's fine.
Is there anything about your work in that field that
you feel might affect your impartiality?

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

THE COURT:

20

Yes, your name?

21

MS. LHOMMEDIEU:

No.

All right, thank you, sir.

Caitlin Lhommedieu, and I am a civil

22

litigator from Roeder & Cochran in Tysons.

23

criminal experience.

24

THE COURT:

25

All right,

I've had no

You were a law clerk, however, in this

courthouse.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 40 of 281 PageID# 4757
40
1
2
3
4
5

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I was a law clerk in this

courthouse.
THE COURT:

All right.

So you were exposed to some

criminal law in that respect.
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I don't even remember any,

6

but I primarily focused my attention on the civil matters, and

7

if I had time, I might sometimes go see a criminal matter just

8

to learn about it, but I know nothing about criminal law.

9

THE COURT:

All right.

Ms. Lhommedieu, do you

10

believe in any respect that your experience as an attorney and

11

your experience with this Court as a law clerk for one of the

12

magistrate judges in any respect could affect your

13

impartiality?

14

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

15

THE COURT:

16

Any more folks in the center section with legal

17

Not at all.

Thank you, ma'am.

training background or work in the legal field?

18

(No response.)

19

THE COURT:

20

Yes, ma'am, your name, please?

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

22

THE COURT:

23

How about on the side?

Anybody?

Kris Gilson.

All right, Ms. Gilson, I think I don't

need to hear further from you, but thank you.

24

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

25

THE COURT:

Okay.

Anybody else?

Way in the back.

Yes,

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 41 of 281 PageID# 4758
41
1

your name, please?

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

THE COURT:

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Alan Herman.

Yes, Mr. Herman.
I'm retired from the U.S. Air

5

Force.

6

that, I was a clerk at the D.C. Court of Appeals for six years,

7

not federal court but local court, and I have -- I just retired

8

from essentially a legal services job with Legal Counsel for

9

the Elderly in D.C.

10
11

1980, I was a judge advocate in the Air Force.

THE COURT:

After

With -- I assume you've had some exposure

to criminal cases then.

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Back when I was in the Air

13

Force, very early on, I prosecuted and defended cases, and I

14

was a military appellate judge for five years, from '75 to

15

1980.

16
17

THE COURT:

So you've been on both sides of the

criminal justice system, so to speak.

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

THE COURT:

Yes, I have.

All right, very good.

Is there anything

20

about those experiences that you feel might affect your ability

21

to be impartial in judging this case?

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

23

THE COURT:

24

Anybody else?

25

No, ma'am.

Thank you, Mr. Herman.

(No response.)

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 42 of 281 PageID# 4759
42
1

THE COURT:

Have any members of the pool ever worked

2

as or trained to be a journalist or a reporter for any form of

3

media, whether we're talking print media, electronic media?

4

Anybody?

5

(No response.)

6

THE COURT:

So nobody here has any reporting

7

experience?

8

but, I mean, seriously as a profession.

9

I'm not talking about your high school newspaper,

Yes, your name, please?

10

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

11

THE COURT:

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

13

sports reporting.

Brown, B-r-o-w-n.

Yes, sir.
Way back in the day, I did

I haven't done anything for 20 --

14

THE COURT:

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Sports reporting for a local

THE COURT:

Mr. Brown, is there anything

16
17

I'm sorry, you did some reporting --

newspaper.
All right.

18

about that experience that you feel could affect your

19

impartiality in this case?

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Not at all.

21

THE COURT:

22

And over here, yes, your name, please?

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

24

THE COURT:

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

All right, thank you, sir.

Matt Garofalo.

Can you spell the last name?
G-a-r-o-f-a-l-o.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 43 of 281 PageID# 4760
43
1

THE COURT:

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10

Yes, sir.
I had an internship my senior

year in college with The Richmond Times as a dispatch reporter.
THE COURT:

All right.

And as part of that

internship, did you do any kind of investigative work?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:
investigative.

I wouldn't consider it

More a research.

THE COURT:

All right.

Did you have any training in

the ethics of journalism and how one goes about doing
investigative reporting, anything like that?

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

12

THE COURT:

No.

Is there anything about your experience

13

in that internship that you think could affect your

14

impartiality in judging this case?

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE COURT:

17

Anybody else?

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

THE COURT:

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

21
22
23
24
25

No.

All right, thank you, sir.
Yes, your name, please?
Nancy Gofus.

All right.
I spent two summers as an

intern with The Virginia Pilot in Norfolk, Virginia.
THE COURT:

And again, did you do any kind of

investigative reporting?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No, not at all.

I just

worked in the library.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 44 of 281 PageID# 4761
44
1

THE COURT:

Is there anything about your experience

2

with that paper that you feel might affect your impartiality in

3

judging this case?

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

THE COURT:

6

Anybody else?

All right, thank you, ma'am.

7

(No response.)

8
9

Not at all.

THE COURT:

Have any members of the panel ever had

any business dealings with or worked for the Central

10

Intelligence Agency, any other federal intelligence agency or

11

department?

12

intelligence-related committees.

13

of you have had that kind of experience.

14

you can't discuss it openly, then approach the bench.

15
16
17
18

And that would include any Congressional
So I want to know now if any
And if for any reason

All right, starting in the first row, your name, sir?
Yeah.
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I'm sorry, Paul Glen.

I was

Juror No. 35.

19

THE COURT:

Yes, Mr. Glen.

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Okay.

I'm a retired

21

counterintelligence officer and also a former chief of

22

intelligence for -- counterintelligence for Central Admin.

23

Currently work with DIA.

24
25

THE COURT:

All right.

So it's military background

in intelligence.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 45 of 281 PageID# 4762
45
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yes.

2

THE COURT:

Now, Mr. Glen, given the

All right.

3

issues in this case, do you feel that you would have any

4

difficulty in being impartial in judging this case?

5

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

6

THE COURT:

7

In your work, did you ever have to work

on any issues involving leaks of classified information?

8

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

9

THE COURT:

10

None.

Yes, ma'am.

And you acted as what, an investigator in

those matters?

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

12

THE COURT:

I acted as an investigator.

Do you feel in any respect because you've

13

been involved in this type of an investigation, that that could

14

affect how you would judge this case?

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE COURT:

17

Yes, your name?

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No, ma'am.

All right, thank you, sir.

James Carnes.

I was a

19

federal civil servant in the Department of Defense, Office of

20

the Secretary of Defense.

21

information.

I was the consumer of CIA

22

THE COURT:

So you're familiar with classification

23

issues and that sort of things.

24

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

25

THE COURT:

Yes, ma'am.

Now, Mr. Carnes, is there anything about

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 46 of 281 PageID# 4763
46
1

that experience that you feel could make it difficult for you

2

to be impartial in judging this case?

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

4

THE COURT:

5

In that position, did you ever -- were

you ever involved in any kind of leak investigation?

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

7

THE COURT:

8
9
10

No.

No.

Either as an investigator, a witness, or

anything like that?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No, ma'am.

THE COURT:

And again, you don't feel

All right.

11

that that former work would in any respect affect your

12

impartiality?

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

14

THE COURT:

15

All right, is there anybody else in the first row?

16
17
18

No.

All right, thank you, Mr. Carnes.

Yes, ma'am, your name, please?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Peggy McCoy, and my father

worked for the Defense Intelligence Agency for 25 years.

19

THE COURT:

All right.

20

you a whole lot about his work.

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

22

THE COURT:

And I assume he didn't tell

No.

Is there anything, though, about him

23

having had that kind of a job that you feel could affect your

24

impartiality?

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 47 of 281 PageID# 4764
47
1

THE COURT:

To your knowledge, was he ever involved

2

in any kind of leak investigation as an investigator or as a

3

witness or anything like that?

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

As far as leaks, I wouldn't

5

know, but classified information, I'm sure that he dealt with

6

that.

7

THE COURT:

All right, thank you, Ms. McCoy.

8

Yes, your name, please?

9

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

10

THE COURT:

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

David Knox, K-n-o-x.

Yes, sir.
I currently hold a TS/SCI

12

clearance supporting the intelligence community for a federal

13

contractor.

14

THE COURT:

All right, sir.

Do you feel in any

15

respect that that work, that position could affect your ability

16

to be impartial in judging this case?

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

18

THE COURT:

It would not.

It would not?

Have you ever been

19

involved in any kind of a leak investigation either as a

20

witness, as an investigator, as a subject?

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

22

THE COURT:

23

All right, is that everybody in the first row?

24
25

No?

No, ma'am.

All right, thank you, Mr. Knox.

(No response.)
THE COURT:

All right, now in the second row.

Yes --

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 48 of 281 PageID# 4765
48
1

I should start to know some of your names.

2

Yes, sir, on the aisle.

3

I'm sorry I don't.

Yeah.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Bernard Engel.

I was a court

4

service officer for the Department of State and worked with

5

agency personnel, agency fraud at various agencies involved.

6
7

THE COURT:

Were you ever involved in any leak

investigations?

8

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

9

THE COURT:

10

No.

Have you ever been a witness or ever had

to be involved in anything close to this kind of a case?

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

12

THE COURT:

No.

And again, Mr. Engel, is there anything

13

about your experience with the State Department that you feel

14

might affect your impartiality in judging this case?

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE COURT:

17

Yes, your name, please?

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

THE COURT:

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I don't believe so.

All right, thank you, Mr. Engel.

David Anderson.

Yes, Mr. Anderson.
As I stated earlier, I've

21

worked on classified programs and new business proposals for

22

the CIA since about 1990.

23

THE COURT:

24

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

25

And you're a contractor?
I am, yes, a contractor;

that's correct.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 49 of 281 PageID# 4766
49
1

THE COURT:

All right.

Again, is there anything

2

about that work on classified materials that you think could

3

affect your impartiality in judging this case?

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

THE COURT:

I don't believe so.

Have you ever been involved in any kind

6

of a leak investigation either because you had to be a witness,

7

you had to investigate it, or you were the subject of one?

8

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

9

THE COURT:

All right, thank you, Mr. Anderson.

10

Yes, your name, please?

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

12

THE COURT:

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

14

No.

Neil Mickelson, ma'am.

Yes, sir.
Ma'am, I currently hold a

TS/SCI clearance as a federal government contractor --

15

THE COURT:

Wait, slow just one second.

16

All right, yes, Mr. Mickelson.

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Okay.

I hold a TS/SCI

18

clearance currently as a federal contractor with the National

19

Reconnaissance Office.

20

Air Force and hold an SCI clearance with the NRO.

21

THE COURT:

I also served in active duty with the

All right.

And again, do you feel in any

22

respect that those positions or having that kind of a clearance

23

would affect your impartiality in judging this case?

24

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

25

THE COURT:

No.

Have you ever been involved in any kind

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 50 of 281 PageID# 4767
50
1

of a leak investigation either as an investigator, as a

2

witness, or even a possible subject?

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

4

THE COURT:

5

Yes, your name, please?

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

7

All right, thank you, Mr. Mickelson.

Nancy Gofus.

And my daughter

works at the CIA.

8
9

No, ma'am.

THE COURT:

All right.

Is there -- I doubt she tells

you much about her work --

10

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

11

THE COURT:

Not at all.

-- but is there anything about her

12

employment with that agency, I mean, the fact that you have a

13

family member working for that agency, that you'd feel could

14

affect your impartiality in judging this case?

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE COURT:

17

All right, over -- yes, next to you, yes, your name,

18

No.

Thank you, Ms. Gofus.

please?

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

20

THE COURT:

21

Yes, ma'am.

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Alberta Hickey.

All right, one second, Ms. Hickey.

I currently have TS/SCI

23

clearances, and I have worked in the past on CIA contracts for

24

a government contractor.

25

THE COURT:

All right.

Now, Ms. Hickey, do you feel

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 51 of 281 PageID# 4768
51
1

in any respect because you have those clearances or you do that

2

kind of work, that you might have difficulty in being impartial

3

in judging this case?

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

THE COURT:

No.

Have you ever been involved in any kind

6

of a leak investigation either as an investigator, as a

7

witness, or as a possible suspect?

8

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

9

THE COURT:

No.

All right, thank you, Ms. Hickey.

10

How about on the side?

Yes, sir, your name, please?

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Hi, good morning.

12

David

Harrison.

13

THE COURT:

Yes, Mr. Harrison.

14

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I work for a government

15

contractor and hold an active clearance that works closely with

16

the CIA.

17

I do not personally, but the contract does.

18

THE COURT:
clearance?

19
20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

THE COURT:

All right.

Now, have you ever been

involved in any kind of a leak investigation?

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

24

THE COURT:

25

I do have a clearance, yes,

ma'am, Top Secret.

21
22

I'm sorry, did you say that you have a

No, ma'am.

Ever been a witness or anything like

that?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 52 of 281 PageID# 4769
52
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

2

THE COURT:

No, ma'am.

And is there anything about your having a

3

clearance or working with intelligence agencies that you feel

4

could affect your impartiality in this case?

5

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

6

THE COURT:

No, ma'am.

All right, thank you, Mr. Harrison.

7

Since I'm look at the right side, anybody else on the right

8

side?

9

Yes, sir, on the aisle.

10

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Your name, please?
I'm Steve Frith.

I'm a

11

retired Army military intelligence officer, and I am currently

12

a contractor supporting the intelligence community.

13
14

THE COURT:

Is that the military intelligence

community or civilian?

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

It's three-letter agencies.

16

THE COURT:

Mr. Frith, is there anything

All right.

17

about your having that kind of a clearance or the kind of work

18

you do that you feel could affect your impartiality in judging

19

this case?

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

21

THE COURT:

No, ma'am.

Have you ever been part of a leak

22

investigation either as an investigator, as a witness, or as a

23

subject?

24

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

25

THE COURT:

No, ma'am.

All right, thank you, Mr. Frith.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 53 of 281 PageID# 4770
53
1
2

Anybody else on the right side?
anyone?

3

(No response.)

4
5

Way in the back,

THE COURT:

Back to the center section, anybody else?

Yes, your name, please?

6

Way in the back.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Steve Lee.

I currently work

7

for a federal contractor and currently hold an active security

8

clearance.

9

THE COURT:

All right.

And, Mr. Lee, is there

10

anything about your having that kind of a clearance or that

11

kind of work that you feel could affect your impartiality in

12

judging this?

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No, ma'am.

14

THE COURT:

Have you ever been involved

All right.

15

in a leak investigation as an investigator, as a possible

16

witness, or suspect?

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

18

THE COURT:

19

Yes, your name, please?

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

21

THE COURT:

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

23
24
25

I have not, ma'am.

All right, thank you, Mr. Lee.

Peter Lynn, L-y-n-n.

Yes, sir.
I worked for the Department

of Navy from '86 to 2001 in the intelligence community.
THE COURT:

Are you currently doing any work in the

intelligence community?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 54 of 281 PageID# 4771
54
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

2

THE COURT:

I am not.

Mr. Lynn, was there anything about that

3

work that you feel could affect your impartiality as a judge in

4

this case?

5

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

6

THE COURT:

No.

Were you ever part of any kind of a leak

7

investigation as an investigator, a witness, or even possibly a

8

subject?

9

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

10

THE COURT:

11

Anybody else?

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I was not.

All right, thank you, Mr. Lynn.
Way on the side, yes.
My name is Debra Williams.

13

I'm an intelligence research specialist with the Department of

14

Homeland Security, but I do sit at CIA headquarters.

15

THE COURT:

All right.

And, Ms. Williams, is there

16

anything about your work both in the intelligence world and

17

with the CIA that you feel could affect your impartiality in

18

this case?

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

20

THE COURT:

No, ma'am.

Have you ever been involved in any kind

21

of a leak investigation as an investigator, a witness, or

22

possibly a suspect?

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I have not.

24

THE COURT:

25

I think we had another hand.

All right, thank you, Ms. Williams.
Yes, ma'am, your name

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 55 of 281 PageID# 4772
55
1

again, please?

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

THE COURT:

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Harriet Shriver.

Yes, Ms. Shriver.
Just that I interviewed and

5

was offered a job with the CIA years ago, never worked for

6

them.

7
8
9

THE COURT:

Is there anything about that situation

that you feel could affect your impartiality?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

10

THE COURT:

11

Anybody else?

12
13

I don't think so.

All right, thank you, Ms. Shriver.

(No response.)
THE COURT:

Have any members of the panel -- and

14

remember, this applies as well to your immediate family members

15

or close personal friends -- ever filed either a formal or

16

informal employment discrimination claim or felt that you had

17

been the victim of discrimination by your employer, whether the

18

employer was a private entity or the federal government?

19

Yes, ma'am, your name, please?

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

21

Juror No. 19.

22

THE COURT:

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

24
25

My name is Donna Curtin,

Yes, ma'am.
It was my father.

It was a

long time ago, and he did file suit for age discrimination.
THE COURT:

And against, was it a private entity?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 56 of 281 PageID# 4773
56
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

2

THE COURT:

3
4
5
6

It was a private firm.

And how was that matter resolved, if you

know?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I believe it was resolved out

of court, and I think he was, he was given damages.
THE COURT:

All right.

Is there anything about that

7

case that you feel might affect your impartiality?

And the

8

reason I mention that is there may be evidence in this case

9

that at one point, Mr. Sterling raised a discrimination claim

10

against the Central Intelligence Agency.

11

sure that any jurors who might have had experience with that

12

sort of an issue have thought about it and whether that could

13

affect their impartiality.

14

So we want to make

Do you feel in any respect your father's experience

15

might affect how you would judge this case?

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

17

THE COURT:

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

THE COURT:

20

Way in the back, yes, your name, please?

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

22

THE COURT:

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I don't think so.

All right, thank you, ma'am.
You're welcome.

Is there anybody else?

Nope?

George-Ann Tobin.

Yes, Ms. Tobin.
I've worked for the National

24

Gallery of Art, and one of the things that I do, I'm the senior

25

official on all sorts of employment litigation, things with the

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 57 of 281 PageID# 4774
57
1

gallery, and some of those have been about employment

2

discrimination, so I have testified before the Merit Service

3

Review Board.

4

THE COURT:

All right.

So you've had some experience

5

with those types of matters although you haven't actually filed

6

one.

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

8

THE COURT:

9

Correct.

Well, let me just ask you, is there

anything about your work in employment discrimination matters

10

that you feel could affect your impartiality in judging this

11

case?

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

13

THE COURT:

14

Anybody else?

15
16

No.

All right, thank you, ma'am.

(No response.)
THE COURT:

Let me just follow up on that question.

17

Have any of you worked in the area of human resources such that

18

you've handled employment discrimination claims?

Anybody?

19

On the aisle, yes, sir, your name, please?

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

21

THE COURT:

I need you to stand up, sir, because it's

22

hard to hear you.

23

have you done in that area?

24
25

All right, Mr. Banfield, what kind of work

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:
discrimination.

Ross Banfield.

I was sued for

I'm an employer.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 58 of 281 PageID# 4775
58
1

THE COURT:

All right.

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

THE COURT:

And how did that work out?
It was dismissed.

It was dismissed.

Is there anything

4

about your experience in that respect that you feel could

5

affect your impartiality in judging this case?

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

7

THE COURT:

8

Yes, your name, sir?

9

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No.

All right, thank you, Mr. Banfield.

10

THE COURT:

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

David Anderson.

Yes, sir.
I worked as a business

12

conduit officer within the corporation, which looked at a lot

13

of discrimination type of issues brought forward through the

14

open line.

15
16

THE COURT:

Is there anything about that work that

you feel might affect your impartiality in judging this case?

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

18

THE COURT:

19

Anybody else?

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

21

THE COURT:

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No.

All right, thank you, sir.
Yes, your name, please?
Cagle, C-a-g-l-e.

Yes, Ms. Cagle.
My husband was a human

23

resources executive, but we're second time around.

24

married during that time.

25

THE COURT:

All right.

We weren't

Is there anything about

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 59 of 281 PageID# 4776
59
1

things he may have told you about that work that could affect

2

your impartiality?

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

4

THE COURT:

5

Anybody else?

6

No.

Thank you, ma'am.

(No response.)

7

THE COURT:

Now, some of the witnesses who are going

8

to testify in this case are either current or former employees

9

of the Central Intelligence Agency, and because of sensitivity

10

of their type of work, they may be testifying only using their

11

initials, and there may be -- and there will be some protective

12

measures taken so that these people's identity is not known to

13

the general public.

14

fairly large screen across the well of the court so that the

15

jurors will be able to see the witness but not the general

16

public.

17

In fact, during the trial, we will have a

We are also going to have pieces of evidence, that

18

is, documentary evidence which at some point may have been

19

classified, and for various reasons, portions of that evidence

20

may have what are called redactions.

21

be blacked out for sensitivity and security reasons.

22

That means portions may

Do any of you feel that those types of protective

23

measures might somehow make it difficult for you to be

24

impartial in judging this case?

25

Is there anyone?

(No response.)

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 60 of 281 PageID# 4777
60
1

THE COURT:

Do you feel you would have trouble in

2

evaluating the credibility of a witness who when he or she

3

testified was not giving you their full name?

4

who would be troubled by that?

5
6

Is there anybody

(No response.)
THE COURT:

All right.

One of the witnesses in this

7

case may be former Secretary of State Condaleezza Rice.

8

was part of the Cabinet of the last President Bush, that is,

9

President George W. Bush.

10

Secretary Rice?

She

Do any of you first of all know

Anybody?

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Just as a secretary.

12

THE COURT:

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

14

THE COURT:

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No.

16

THE COURT:

Were any of you members of

No, I mean, have a personal -No.

Ever known her personally.

All right.

17

the President Bush Administration?

18

government employee while he was president but actually a

19

member of his cabinet or of the immediate administration?

20

there anybody?

21
22

I mean, not that you were a

Is

(No response.)
THE COURT:

Do any of you have any feelings about the

23

Bush Administration or Secretary Rice's performance that you

24

feel in any respect might make it difficult for you to evaluate

25

her testimony fairly?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 61 of 281 PageID# 4778
61
1

(No response.)

2

THE COURT:

Do any of you feel that because she is a

3

former Secretary of State and had other high-level government

4

positions, her testimony would somehow be worthy of more

5

credibility than that of just an ordinary citizen who's coming

6

in to testify?

Anybody?

7

(No response.)

8
9

THE COURT:

All right.

I've asked some of you this

question but I'm just going to expand it to all of you now, so

10

if you've already answered this question, you don't need to

11

raise your hand, but to your knowledge, have any of you or any

12

of your close relatives ever been investigated for or charged

13

with possession -- unlawful possession of classified government

14

documents?

15
16

(No response.)
THE COURT:

Other than what some of you have already

17

told me, have any of you ever been involved in investigating

18

such an issue?

19
20

(No response.)
THE COURT:

To your knowledge, have any of you ever

21

been called as a witness to have to testify or give information

22

about a possible leak of classified information?

23

(No response.)

24

THE COURT:

No?

All right.

25

Have any of you ever been a witness in any kind of

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 62 of 281 PageID# 4779
62
1

trial proceeding?

I'm sure some of you have.

2

answers to that question.

I usually get

3

The gentleman in the white shirt, your name, sir?

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

Background, in 1979, I was a witness in a criminal case.

6

THE COURT:

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

8

What kind of a criminal case?
A high school friend of mine

was charged with drunk driving and possession of marijuana.

9
10

Name is James Lyke, L-y-k-e.

THE COURT:

And so I assume you were called by the

defense?

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Correct.

12

THE COURT:

Was there anything about that

All right.

13

experience that you feel could affect your ability to be

14

impartial in judging this case?

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE COURT:

17

Anybody else on the far side?

18
19

No, ma'am.

All right, thank you, Mr. Lyke.
Yes, in the back, your

name, please?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Margaret Rowe.

I don't know

20

exactly how long ago, but I was called as a witness in a

21

litigation against a salesman for a yearbook company who

22

overstepped his territory bounds, and I was found by the

23

attorneys pending against him because I had dealings with him

24

when I was in college.

25

THE COURT:

All right.

Ms. Rowe, was there anything

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 63 of 281 PageID# 4780
63
1

about your experience on the witness stand that you feel could

2

affect your impartiality in judging this case?

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No, ma'am.

4

THE COURT:

5

All right, anybody else on the left side?

Thank you, ma'am.

6

(No response.)

7

THE COURT:

Now, in the center, anybody who's been a

8

witness?

Yes, ma'am -- let me start in the first row just to

9

keep my normal practice.

10

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

11

THE COURT:

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Jim Carnes, C-a-r-n-e-s.

Yes.
I was a witness in a case in

13

this courthouse where an individual was -- federal --

14

Department of Defense employee was protesting a job dismissal.

15

He was --

16

THE COURT:

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

The defense.

18

THE COURT:

Was there anything --

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

20
21

And you were called by which side?

All right.

I was in the office with him.

I was employed in the office in which he served.
THE COURT:

Was there anything about your experience

22

as a witness in that case that you feel might make it difficult

23

to be impartial in judging this case?

24

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

25

THE COURT:

No.

All right, thank you, sir.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 64 of 281 PageID# 4781
64
1
2
3

All right, now in the second row?
name, please?

Yes, ma'am, your

Yeah.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Nancy Gofus.

I was a witness

4

in a case in the Richmond courts where my corporation was suing

5

an employee for intellectual property theft.

6

THE COURT:

And was there anything about your

7

experience as a witness that you feel might affect your

8

impartiality?

9

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

10

THE COURT:

11

All right, anybody else?

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

13

THE COURT:

14

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No.

Thank you, Ms. Gofus.
Yes, your name, please?
I'm Rebecca Miller.

Yes, Ms. Miller.
And I've been a witness in

15

four court cases just over my lifetime.

16

child a long time ago over a horse thing.

17

once I was a witness in an automobile accident in Herndon, and

18

then once also as a witness in a drunk driving accident, and

19

then most recently I was called as a witness in a real estate,

20

husband-wife issue over real estate.

21

THE COURT:

One was when I was a
I was ten.

And then

Now, Ms. Miller, having been on the stand

22

a few times, in any respect, do you feel those experiences

23

could affect your impartiality in judging this case?

24

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

25

THE COURT:

No.

Thank you, ma'am.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 65 of 281 PageID# 4782
65
1

Yes, your name, please?

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

THE COURT:

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

Yes, ma'am.

THE COURT:

All right.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

9

THE COURT:

10

All right, thank you.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Gabriel Chu.

I'm not sure

if -THE COURT:

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE COURT:

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

Yes, your name,

please?

14

18

Not at all.

Anybody else in the center section?

12
13

Was there anything about that

experience that you feel could affect your impartiality?

8

11

I was a witness in a domestic

matter against my ex-husband.

6
7

Ms. Lhommedieu.

I'm sorry, you're Mr.?
Gabriel Chu.

Yes, sir.
I'm not sure if this

qualifies, but I was in a car accident, and I had to testify.
THE COURT:

That does count.

Is there anything about

20

your experience on the witness stand that you feel could affect

21

your impartiality?

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

23

THE COURT:

No.

And, ladies and gentlemen, the reason I

24

ask this question and the next question is going to be about

25

prior jury service is sometimes something happens when you're

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 66 of 281 PageID# 4783
66
1

in another court, and it upsets you enough or it shocks you

2

enough that it can actually affect your attitude towards the

3

legal system, and that's why we just want to make sure that any

4

prior experience you've had in proceedings like this might not

5

affect how you judge this case.

6

And, Mr. Chu, you said there was no problem?

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

8

THE COURT:

9

Anybody else in the center section?

10

Okay.

Great.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

12

THE COURT:

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

15
16

Peter Lynn, L-y-n-n.

Yes, sir.
A witness as an employer in

an unemployment claim.
THE COURT:

Anything about that experience that you

feel might affect your impartiality in judging this case?

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

18

THE COURT:

19

How about on the right side?

20

Yes, in the

back, your name, please?

11

14

No.

experience?

No.

All right, thank you, sir.

Let me start in the front.

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

22

THE COURT:

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

24

THE COURT:

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Anybody with witness
Your name, please?

Donna Beitzel.

Can you spell the last name?
B-e-i-t-z-e-l.

Yes, ma'am.
May I approach the bench,

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 67 of 281 PageID# 4784
67
1

please?

2

THE COURT:

3

(Bench conference on the record.)

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

THE COURT:

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

7

THE COURT:

8

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

9

THE COURT:

10
11

Yes.

Wait.
Okay.

And you're Ms. Beitzel?
Yes.

Yes, Ms. Beitzel.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I had a domestic dispute with

my current husband.

12

THE COURT:

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

14

It's a domestic --

A domestic dispute with your husband?
With my husband, yes.

I was

called for the prosecution.

15

THE COURT:

And you had to testify?

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

17

THE COURT:

Um-hum.

Is there anything about your experience

18

on the witness stand that you think would make it difficult for

19

you to be impartial in judging this case?

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No.

21

discuss it publicly.

22

THE COURT:

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

24

(End of bench conference.)

25

THE COURT:

That's fine.

I just don't want to

Thank you very much.
Thank you.

All right, we were asking about whether

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 68 of 281 PageID# 4785
68
1

anybody had any experience as a witness, and I think there are

2

still a few hands over on the side.

3

Yes, sir, your name?

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

THE COURT:

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

7

THE COURT:

8

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

9

George McCool.

How do you spell the last name?
M-c-C-o-o-l.

Yes, sir.
I was called in a child abuse

case several years ago by my employer.

10

THE COURT:

All right.

Is there anything about your

11

experience as a witness that you think could affect your

12

ability to be impartial in judging this case?

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

14

THE COURT:

15

And there's another hand over there.

16

back.

17
18

No, ma'am.

Thank you, Mr. McCool.
Yes, way in the

Yes.
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Gregory Fabian.

I was a

witness in traffic court about ten years ago.

19

THE COURT:

Was there anything about that experience

20

that you feel could affect your impartiality in judging this

21

case?

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No.

23

THE COURT:

24

And one more hand over there?

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Thank you, Mr. Fabian.
Yes, ma'am.

Cathleen Gregorson.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 69 of 281 PageID# 4786
69
1

THE COURT:

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

Yes, ma'am.
I was a witness in a TPR

trial last March.

4

THE COURT:

And is there anything about that

5

experience that you feel could affect your impartiality in

6

judging this case?

7
8

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:
fresh.

9
10

I will try very hard to remain impartial.
THE COURT:

Did you have a tough time on the witness

stand?

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

12

THE COURT:

13

Yes.

And you were, I would assume,

aggressively cross-examined?

14

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

15

THE COURT:

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

17

THE COURT:

18

Anybody else?

19
20

Honestly, it's still very

Yes.

And did that leave a bad feeling?
Yes.

All right, thank you, Ms. Gregorson.

(No response.)
THE COURT:

Now, the next question has to do with

21

jury service.

22

on either a trial or a grand jury.

23

and/or civil cases either in federal or state court.

24

looking for your experience as a juror.

25

I'd like to know if any of you have ever served
This would include criminal
So we're

Anybody?

I'm just going to start on the left side.

Anybody on

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 70 of 281 PageID# 4787
70
1

the left side?

2

Yes, ma'am, your name, please?

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Debra Williams.

4

actually served twice.

5

second case was for breaking and entering.

6
7

THE COURT:
cases, what happened?

8
9
10

I've

Once was for a domestic abuse, and the

All right.

Now, in terms of those two

What did the jury do in those cases?

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

In the domestic abuse, he was

found not guilty, and for breaking and entering, it was a
guilty plea.

11

It was California, third strike.

THE COURT:

All right.

Now, Ms. Williams, is there

12

anything about your experience in either of those two trials

13

that you feel could affect your impartiality as a juror in this

14

case?

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Not at all.

16

THE COURT:

17

Yes, your name again, please?

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

THE COURT:

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

21

THE COURT:

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

He was found guilty.

23

THE COURT:

And, Ms. Perry, is there

Thank you, ma'am.

Nancy Perry.

Yes, Ms. Perry.
I served in a jury for a DWI.

And what did the jury do in that case?

All right.

24

anything about that experience that you feel could affect your

25

impartiality in judging this case?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 71 of 281 PageID# 4788
71
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

2

THE COURT:

3

Yes, your name, please?

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

THE COURT:

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

7

THE COURT:

8

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

9
10

All right, thank you.

Kristin Witters.

Yes, Ms. Witters.
It's W-i.

Thank you.
I served on two juries in the

past six years for Fairfax County, both civil.

One was a

theft, and one was domestic violence.

11
12

No, ma'am.

THE COURT:

All right, what did the jury do in those

cases?

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Both were dismissed.

14

THE COURT:

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE COURT:

17

Is there anything about those experiences that you

18

feel could affect your impartiality as a juror in this case?

Both were -- so the jury found -Not guilty.

Not guilty, all right.

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

20

THE COURT:

21

Anyone else on the left side?

22

No, ma'am.

Thank you.
Yes, your name,

please?

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

24

THE COURT:

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Suzanne Yerks, Y-e-r-k-s.

Yes, ma'am.
I served on a jury for a

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 72 of 281 PageID# 4789
72
1

robbery in circuit court.

2

THE COURT:

And what did the jury do in that case?

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

4

THE COURT:

Found the defendant guilty.

Is there anything about your experience

5

as a juror in that case that you feel could affect your

6

impartiality in this case?

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

8

THE COURT:

9

Yes, sir, your name, please?

Thank you, Ms. Yerks.

10

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

11

THE COURT:

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

13

County jury.

14

was found guilty.

No, ma'am.

Sidney Shaw.

Yes, Mr. Shaw.
I served on an Arlington

It was a speeding violation, and the defendant

15

THE COURT:

Was found guilty?

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

17

THE COURT:

Yes.

Anything about that experience that you

18

feel could affect your impartiality as a --

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

20

THE COURT:

21

Anyone else on the left side?

22

(No response.)

23
24
25

THE COURT:

No, ma'am.

All right, thank you, sir.

All right, how about in the center now?

We'll start in the first row.

Yes, ma'am, in the red shirt.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Anne Marie Cassidy,

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 73 of 281 PageID# 4790
73
1

C-a-s-s-i-d-y.

2

THE COURT:

Thank you, ma'am.

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

It was Loudoun County, and it

4

was an assault on a police officer, and the person was found

5

guilty.

6

THE COURT:

All right.

Was there anything about your

7

experience on that jury that you feel could affect your

8

impartiality in this case?

9

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No, ma'am.

10

THE COURT:

11

Yes, sir, your name again?

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

13

THE COURT:

14

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

15

Paul Glen.

Yes.
It was just a Fairfax County

civil where a car hit a man on a bicycle.

16
17

Thank you, Ms. Cassidy.

THE COURT:

All right.

And, Mr. Glen, what did the

jury do in that case?

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

the individual on the bicycle.

20

THE COURT:

There was an award made to

All right, was there anything about that

21

experience that you feel could affect your impartiality in this

22

case?

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

24

THE COURT:

25

Yes, your name?

No, ma'am.

All right, thank you, Mr. Glen.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 74 of 281 PageID# 4791
74
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

2

THE COURT:

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

4

Yes, Mr. Carnes.

THE COURT:

All right.

Now, Mr. Carnes, you know

that the standard in the grand jury is just probable cause.

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

8

THE COURT:

9

Federal grand jury, one year,

served here in the building.

5
6

Jim Carnes again.

Yes, ma'am.

It's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

You can appreciate that difference?

10

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

11

THE COURT:

Yes, ma'am.

Is there anything about your experience

12

in a grand jury that you feel could affect your ability to

13

judge this case fairly and impartially?

14

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

15

THE COURT:

16

Yes, your name, please?

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

18

THE COURT:

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

20
21
22
23

No.

All right, thank you, sir.

Catterall, with a "C."

Yes, sir.
I served on a jury 20-25

years ago.
THE COURT:

And what kind of a case was it,

Mr. Catterall?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

24

property, I believe.

25

THE COURT:

Some kind of destruction of

Do you remember what the jury did?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 75 of 281 PageID# 4792
75
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Found him guilty.

2

THE COURT:

Was there anything about that

All right.

3

experience that you feel could affect your impartiality as a

4

judge in this case?

5

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

6

THE COURT:

7

All right, how about in the second row?

8

No.

Thank you, sir.
Yes, on the

aisle again?

9

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

10

jury in Montgomery County.

11

We found the defendant not guilty.

Bernard Engel.

I served on a

It was a criminal case, robbery.

12

THE COURT:

You found him not guilty?

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Not guilty.

14

THE COURT:

And, Mr. Engel, is there

All right.

15

anything about that experience that you feel could affect your

16

impartiality in this case?

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

18

THE COURT:

19

Your name, please?

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No, ma'am.

Thank you, sir.

I'm David Anderson.

21

on three juries in southern California, two civil, one

22

criminal.

23

was hung.

The two civil found for the plaintiff.

24

THE COURT:

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I served

The criminal

Was hung.
Yes.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 76 of 281 PageID# 4793
76
1

THE COURT:

Now, was there anything about that

2

experience, especially being on a hung jury, that means the

3

jurors could not agree, that you feel could affect your

4

impartiality in judging this case?

5

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

6

THE COURT:

7

In terms of the hung jury experience, do

you know whether you were one of the hangers?

8
9

No.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:
eleven to one.

10

I was the foreman.

It was

I was not one of the hangers.

THE COURT:

All right, did you have any -- as a

11

result of that experience on that jury, do you have any

12

attitudes or feelings about the jury process that you think

13

could affect your ability to judge this case?

14
15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

At the time, I was very

frustrated, but that was many years ago, so no.

16

THE COURT:

All right.

And you, and you understand

17

and, I assume, appreciate that each juror has a right to his

18

own evaluation of the evidence, and all the other jurors are

19

supposed to listen to that evaluation and consider it

20

carefully?

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

22

THE COURT:

23

Anybody else in Mr. Anderson's row?

24
25

Correct.

All right, thank you, Mr. Anderson.
Yes, ma'am, your

name, please?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yes.

Alberta Hickey.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 77 of 281 PageID# 4794
77
1

THE COURT:

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

jury.

4
5

Yes, Ms. Hickey.

The woman was found not guilty.
THE COURT:

that you feel could affect your impartiality in this case?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

7

THE COURT:

8

Yes, your name, please?

9

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No.

All right, thank you, Ms. Hickey.

10

THE COURT:

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Diane Gilliam.

Yes, Ms. Gilliam.
It was a criminal case, a

murder case actually.

13

THE COURT:

14

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

15

THE COURT:

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

17

THE COURT:

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

It was a civil case.

Is there anything about that experience

6

12

I served on a Fairfax County

was found guilty.

20

A murder case?
Yeah.

In what jurisdiction?
Prince William County.

I'm sorry?
Prince William County.

He

It was about 20 years ago.

THE COURT:

All right.

And, Ms. Gilliam, was there

21

anything about your experience on that jury that you feel could

22

affect your impartiality in judging this case?

23
24
25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Since it's been so long ago,

no.
THE COURT:

All right, thank you, ma'am.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 78 of 281 PageID# 4795
78
1

All right, anybody else now in the center section?

2

How about the back rows?

3

the back?

No?

4

(No response.)

5
6

Any people with jury experience in

THE COURT:

How about on the right side?

Yes, your

name, sir?

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

8

THE COURT:

9

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yes, David Knox, K-n-o-x.

Yes, Mr. Knox.
I served as an alternate

10

juror for a criminal proceeding in P. G. County for attempted

11

murder.

12

was let go prior to that decision.

13

I do not know the outcome.

THE COURT:

I was an alternate, and I

All right, was there anything about that

14

experience in that trial that you feel could affect your

15

impartiality in judging this case?

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

17

THE COURT:

Thank you, sir.

18

All right.

Yes, your name, please?

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

20
21

No.

Noureddine Elabassi.

It was

a -THE COURT:

I'm sorry, slow down just one second.

22

How do you spell your last name?

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

24

THE COURT:

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Elabassi.

Yes, Mr. Elabassi.
It was a case in Fairfax

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 79 of 281 PageID# 4796
79
1

County about whether to award damages for injury caused during

2

an accident and also determine the dollar amount for the

3

person.

4

THE COURT:

And what did the jury do in that case?

5

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

The person was awarded

6

damages, and the jury, we decided on the amount that we had to

7

choose to give to the injuries.

8

THE COURT:

9
10

All right.

And was there anything about

your experience with that jury that you feel could affect your
impartiality in judging this case?

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

12

THE COURT:

13

All right, in the -- behind, yes, ma'am, your name,

14
15
16

Absolutely not.

All right, thank you, sir.

please?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Sandra Khouri.

That's

K-h-o-u-r-i.

17

THE COURT:

Yes, Ms. Khouri.

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

This was in Kentucky.

It was

19

a civil case, and it was thrown out.

20

plaintiff's lawyer caught her in a lie and threw the case out.

21

THE COURT:

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

23

THE COURT:

The defendant -- the

So the jury never had to do a decision.
Right.

Was there anything, though, about that

24

experience while you were in court that you think could affect

25

your impartiality in judging this case?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 80 of 281 PageID# 4797
80
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

2

THE COURT:

3

Yes, sir, your name, please?

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

THE COURT:

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

7

day.

8

the employer.

9

No?

No.

All right, thank you, ma'am.

Brown, Scott Brown.

Yes, sir.
I served on a jury just for a

It was a trial, a robbery experience with the employee of
I was dismissed after one day.

THE COURT:

Was there anything about your experience,

10

though, for that one day that might affect your impartiality in

11

judging this case?

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

13

THE COURT:

14

Way in the back, yes.

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE COURT:

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

18

All right, thank you, sir.

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

25

And what kind of a case was it?
It was a soliciting a minor

case.

22

24

I served on a criminal jury

in Fairfax County.
THE COURT:

23

Gregory Fabian.

Yes, sir.

19

21

Not at all.

THE COURT:

All right, what did the jury do in that

case?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

The case was dismissed, so we

didn't render a verdict.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 81 of 281 PageID# 4798
81
1

THE COURT:

You never had to do a verdict?

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

THE COURT:

No.

Was there anything, though, about your

4

experience in that trial that you feel could affect your

5

impartiality in judging this case?

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

7

THE COURT:

8

Anybody else?

9

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No.

All right, thank you, sir.
Yes, ma'am.
Peggy McCoy, and back related

10

to the employment discrimination, I just wanted to put out

11

there that I have handled employment discrimination cases as a

12

defense attorney, but I don't feel as though that would affect

13

my ability to be impartial.

14

THE COURT:

All right, thank you, Ms. McCoy.

15

Now, as I mentioned before, I as the presiding judge

16

at the end of the trial will give you, the jury, the specific

17

definitions of certain legal terms and the law, and you have to

18

use the law that the Court gives you, that's called the

19

instructions, in deciding the case.

20

Do any of you feel that if the Court were to give you

21

a principle of law that you thought was stupid or foolish or

22

just you didn't think was correct, would you be able to put

23

aside your own personal view of the law and apply that as given

24

to you by the Court?

25

with that?

Is there anybody who would have trouble

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 82 of 281 PageID# 4799
82
1

Yes, sir, your name, please?

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

THE COURT:

4

Gabriel Chu.

Yes, Mr. Chu.

Do you have a problem with

that?

5

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Hypothetically.

6

THE COURT:

Well, it's important to

All right.

7

recognize that, you know, it's not a juror's job to change the

8

law.

9

facts.

It's to take the law that exists and apply it to the
So you'd have a problem with that, Mr. Chu?

10

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

11

THE COURT:

12

Is there anybody else?

Yes, your name, please?

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Matthew Lowman.

14

THE COURT:

15

All right, thank you, sir.

Yes, Mr. Lowman.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

17

THE COURT:

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

THE COURT:

I might.

It's Lowman, right, L-o-w-m-a-n?
L-o-w.

All right, is there anybody else?

Yes,

ma'am, your name, please?

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

22

THE COURT:

23

And you'd also have an

issue with that?

16

20

Possibly, yes.

Donna Curtin.

Yes, Ms. Curtin.

And you also have a

problem with that?

24

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

25

THE COURT:

I could.

All right, thank you, Ms. Curtin.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 83 of 281 PageID# 4800
83
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

2

THE COURT:

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

THE COURT:

My brother

name?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

9

THE COURT:

R-o-y, Roy.

Yes, Ms. Roy.

You feel therefore you

might have difficulty in being --

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

12

THE COURT:

13

Anybody else?

14
15

I'm Gloria Roy.

All right, how do you spell your last

8

10

Way on the side,

is currently serving prison time, and he was wrongly accused.

6
7

Is there anybody else?

yes.

4
5

You're welcome.

He was wrongly accused.

All right, thank you, ma'am.

(No response.)
THE COURT:

Do any members of the panel have any

16

difficulty with the English language?

17

understanding what I've said or any of the questions?

18

Yes, your name, please?

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

20

THE COURT:

21

you been in the United States?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

23

THE COURT:

25

Ivan Hernandez.

All right, Mr. Hernandez, how long have

22

24

Has anyone had trouble

Fifteen years ago.

And your English sounds fine to me.

Did

you have trouble understanding anything I've said?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yes, sometimes.

Especially

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 84 of 281 PageID# 4801
84
1

listening in this case, I'd like to be very clear what

2

everybody says.

3

THE COURT:

4

Is there anybody else?

5

All right, thank you, sir.

(No response.)

6

THE COURT:

Now, obviously, there are quite a few

7

issues that are going to have to be raised and addressed in

8

this case, and this trial is going to take some period of time.

9

I will assure you that we're -- the nickname for this Court is

10

the Rocket Docket, in case you haven't heard that, because we

11

are actually the fastest federal court in the country, and we

12

try to make sure that we do not waste jurors' time.

13

We appreciate how valuable your time is and what a

14

sacrifice jurors do pay in sitting in a case that is long.

15

However, I do need to have, whoever's going to be a juror has

16

to be able to give their full time and attention to the case

17

for its duration, and therefore, let me give you an approximate

18

view of the schedule.

19

approximately 6:00, and I give jurors a one-hour lunch break

20

around 1:00.

21

frame, and usually a 15- to 20-minute mid-morning and

22

mid-afternoon break.

23

We'll be in session today until

It sort of depends where we are, but in that time

We can accommodate some medical concerns.

If folks

24

have back issues, you can stand up and move around a little

25

bit.

If you have to take medication, we will certainly be able

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 85 of 281 PageID# 4802
85
1

to make breaks to accommodate those types of situations.

2

We will run this trial this week.

Today, obviously,

3

we started already at 10:00.

4

going to start a little earlier, at 9:30, and you will be out

5

no later than 5:30.

6

and we will be out by 5:00.

7

Wednesday and Thursday, we're

On Friday, we will be starting at 10:00,

Next Monday is the Martin Luther King federal

8

holiday, so we will not be in session, and then next week,

9

Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, we would have those 9:30

10

start times.

11

Friday.

12

I'm not yet sure what time we would start on

The trial will most likely go into the last week of

13

January.

14

that this case will be fully completed by the end of January,

15

which would be January 30.

16

plans or commitments will not have a problem, but I do need all

17

of you to be able to sit throughout January, and it might be

18

sooner than the end of the month.

19

certain, but that would be the outside limit.

20

How far, I don't know.

And I am assured by everybody

So those of you who have February

I can't tell you for

So we need jurors who are able to give their full

21

time and attention to this trial with that time frame in mind.

22

So if any of you have any medical issues, any business issues

23

that cannot be changed or accommodated, or any other family

24

situations that would interfere with your ability to serve on

25

this jury, I need to know that now.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 86 of 281 PageID# 4803
86
1

So let me start in the first row, whether that

2

schedule would create an insurmountable problem for any of you.

3

Yes, sir, your name, please?

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

THE COURT:

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

7

THE COURT:

8

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

9
10

small nonprofit.

All right, hold on one second.

requirements, and January is tax financial --

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

THE COURT:

21

Well, how many 1099s do you have to

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Three- four hundred.

And I

handle all the financial.

18

20

Tax financial issues, and

generate?

16

19

I'm sorry, January is what?

it's 1099s, and I do it all for my small nonprofit.

14

17

I'm director of finance for a

I handle all the tax and financial

THE COURT:

15

S-t-a-n-l-e-y.

Yes, Mr. Stanley.

11

13

Last name is Stanley.

THE COURT:

And there's nobody else who can do that

for you?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

My bookkeeper handles the

payment of bills, but I handle everything else.

22

THE COURT:

All right, thank you, Mr. Stanley.

23

All right, yes, ma'am, your name again?

24

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

25

THE COURT:

Harriet Shriver.

Ms. Shriver, yes.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 87 of 281 PageID# 4804
87
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I have reservations on an

2

auto train for Florida and a lease in Florida starting the

3

23rd.

4

THE COURT:

5

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

6

Of January?
Whatever Saturday is.

24th, I guess, the 25th.

7

THE COURT:

8

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

9

THE COURT:

So that's a prepaid lease?
Yeah.

All right, thank you, Ms. Shriver.

10

Yes, ma'am, your name, please?

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

12

THE COURT:

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Donna Curtin.

Yes, Ms. Curtin.
I do have a medical test

14

scheduled for the last week in January.

15

but it shouldn't be changed.

It could be changed,

16

THE COURT:

17

How about anybody else in the first row?

18

The

All right, thank you, ma'am.
Yes, you're

Ms. McCool?

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

20

THE COURT:

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Peggy McCoy.

McCoy, yes.
Well, I feel terrible saying

22

this, but I have a three-year-old at home, and so I would have

23

to rely on an 80-year-old grandparent to take care of her

24

pretty much every day unless my husband took off from work.

25

THE COURT:

Well, I mean, legitimate child care

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 88 of 281 PageID# 4805
88
1

issues are something we certainly will consider.

2

possible for you to sit then for that length of time?

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

So it's not

Really it's not.

And the Bar

4

Association also has a pretty significant event in the middle

5

of February.

6

death, but the situation with the three-year-old is a problem.

Again, that's a social event, that's not life or

7

THE COURT:

All right, thank you.

8

All right.

And over here, yes, sir, your name,

9

please?

10

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

11

THE COURT:

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

13

Yeah, David Knox, K-n-o-x.

Yeah.
I have a personal trip with

tickets planned and paid for starting the evening of the 28th.

14

THE COURT:

So that's Wednesday evening.

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE COURT:

17

All right, in the second row?

All right, thank you, sir.

18

now take the whole left side.

19

side for whom -- yes, ma'am?

And I'm just going to

Is there anybody on the left

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

21

THE COURT:

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

23

THE COURT:

24

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

25

Yes, ma'am.

Manavi Puri.

What's the last name?
P-u-r-i.

Yes, Ms. Puri.
I don't know if this is

important, either, but I just changed jobs, and I'm on a

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 89 of 281 PageID# 4806
89
1

three-month probation period which ends February 3.

2

little concerned if I'm out of the office for the next three

3

weeks.

4
5

THE COURT:

So I'm a

Well, you have protection from employment

actions --

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

7

THE COURT:

8

Is it a government agency or a private company?

9

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

10
11

THE COURT:

Okay.

-- as a, as a juror.

No, nonprofit organization.

It's a nonprofit?

You shouldn't have a

problem.

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Okay.

13

THE COURT:

But otherwise, you can sit;

14

All right?

is that correct?

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE COURT:

17

Anybody else?

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yes.

All right, thank you.
Yes, your name, sir?
Sidney Shaw.

19

scheduled for surgery on the 21st of January.

20

minor, but it's certainly a concern.

21
22
23
24
25

THE COURT:

Okay.

That's Wednesday.

My wife is
It should be

I assume you

were planning to be with her for that?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yes.

But I would like to

confer with her and see how she feels about it before I commit.
THE COURT:

All right, thank you, Mr. Shaw.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 90 of 281 PageID# 4807
90
1

Yes, ma'am, your name?

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

THE COURT:

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Maria Pierce.

Yes, Ms. Pierce.
Yes, I'm the sole coordinator

5

and office manager for a small dental practice, and it's really

6

just the doctor and myself.

7

patients to the afternoon, but I can't do that for two weeks.

So for today, I bumped the morning

8

THE COURT:

All right, Ms. Pierce, thank you.

9

Way in the back, yes.

10

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

11

THE COURT:

12

Sheena Tosta.

Hold on one second, ma'am.

How do you

pronounce your -- spell your last name?

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

14

THE COURT:

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

"T" like Tom.

Yes, ma'am.
I am an HMR manager for a

16

small company, and we have a deadline for next Friday for

17

benefits, and I have no one else to do that.

18
19

THE COURT:

How many employees do you have to do

paperwork for?

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

21

THE COURT:

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

23

THE COURT:

24

Yes, ma'am.

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

125.

125?
Yes.

All right, Ms. Tosta, thank you.

I have --

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 91 of 281 PageID# 4808
91
1

THE COURT:

I'm sorry, your last name?

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

THE COURT:

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Roy, R-o-y.

Yes, Ms. Roy.
I have panic attacks, and

5

it's very hard for me to sit, even sit in this room, and I need

6

to get some air at this moment, but I'm trying to control

7

myself.

8

THE COURT:

All right, Ms. Roy, thank you.

9

Anybody else?

Yes, your name, please?

10

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

11

THE COURT:

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

George-Ann Tobin.

Yes, Ms. Tobin.
I'm the chief investment

13

officer for the National Gallery of Art, and we have a board

14

meeting the morning of January 29.

15

THE COURT:

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

17

THE COURT:

18

How long would that meeting last?
An hour and a half.

And is that the only conflict you've got

during that time period?

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yes.

20

THE COURT:

We might be able to work

All right.

21

around that if you're chosen, all right, but that would be the

22

only thing -- I'm sorry, what time would that meeting be?

23
24
25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

It's at 11:00, so I'd have to

be there kind of from 10:30 to, yeah.
THE COURT:

But you'd be able to be back here by two?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 92 of 281 PageID# 4809
92
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yes.

2

THE COURT:

3

Yes, your name, please?

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

director of pharmacy at Fauquier Hospital.

6

hospital in Warrenton.

7

that was very difficult to manage.

All right, thank you.

I'm Margaret Rowe.

I am the

We're a small

We just experienced a huge flu epidemic

8

I'm also having an attorney leave my department, and

9

so I have staffing responsibilities, so it's difficult for me.

10

A few days would be fine, but a three-week commitment would

11

probably not work.

12

THE COURT:

13

How about in the -- is that everybody on the left?

14

All right, thank you, Ms. Rowe.

(No response.)

15

THE COURT:

All right, in the center section.

16

we'll start on the aisle again.

Yes,

Yes, sir.

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

May I approach?

18

THE COURT:

19

(Bench conference on the record.)

20

THE COURT:

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

22

THE COURT:

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yes.

Yes.

Remind me of your name again.
I'm Bernard Engel.

Yes, Mr. Engel.
When I got to the building

24

this morning, I got a phone call that my sister-in-law had died

25

this morning.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 93 of 281 PageID# 4810
93
1

THE COURT:

I'm sorry.

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

They think the funeral is

3

going to be on Thursday, but obviously, they're not sure yet,

4

and so I, you know --

5

THE COURT:

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

7

THE COURT:

8

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

9

THE COURT:

So that will be Thursday?
Likely.

I appreciate your telling me that.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Thank you.

I'm

I appreciate

that.

14

(End of bench conference.)

15

THE COURT:

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

17

I'll know, you know,

so sorry for your loss.

12
13

No, no, it will be here.

later on today, I would assume I would find out the exact day.

10
11

Will that be out of town?

Yes, sir.
I would also like to

approach, Your Honor.

18

THE COURT:

All right.

19

(Bench conference on the record.)

20

THE COURT:

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

You're Mr. Anderson?
Mr. Anderson, Juror No. 2.

22

have just taken a leave of absence from work.

23

rare disease, and it's progressed, and I need to spend time

24

with him and care for him in the last months of his life.

25

THE COURT:

I

My, my son has a

I'm very sorry to hear that.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 94 of 281 PageID# 4811
94
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Thank you.

2

THE COURT:

3

(End of bench conference.)

4

THE COURT:

Very sorry.

Before I send my folks back, is there

5

anybody else who needs to approach the bench?

All right, those

6

of you who need to approach the bench, just start lining up in

7

the well.

8

All right, the first juror can come forward.

9

(Bench conference on the record.)

10

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

11

THE COURT:

12

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

13

THE COURT:

14

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

15

Good morning.

Yes, sir, your name, please?
My name is Phan Vu.

I'm sorry?
My name is Phan Vu, P-h-a-n

and my last name is V-u.

16

THE COURT:

The last name is?

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

18

THE COURT:

19

Yes, Mr. Vu.

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

V-u.

V as in Victor?

Yes.

Okay.

Just one second.

Actually, over ten

21

year, I have seven surgery, and that cause my health, it's not

22

really good health --

23

THE COURT:

24

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

25

Okay.
-- because I have memory and

memory not really good; and my, my hearing, sometime I can

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 95 of 281 PageID# 4812
95
1

hear; sometimes, you know, I not really hear very well.

2

THE COURT:

All right.

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

And so also, my age, I'm 66

4

years old, and I retired last year.

5

duty at work, and so that's why I retired last year, and so I

6

cannot continue to work.

7
8

THE COURT:
enough.

I'm not able to perform my

All right, Mr. Vu, I think you've said

I understand your situation.

9

Thank you.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yeah.

10

THE COURT:

You may go back to your seat.

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

12

THE COURT:

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

14

THE COURT:

15
16
17

Thank you.

Okay.

Thank you.

Be careful on the step.
Okay.

Thank you very much.

Yes, ma'am, just come up here, please.

Your name?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Ingalsbe, Nancy Ingalsbe,

with an "I."

18

THE COURT:

Yes, ma'am.

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I, I just want to say that I

20

feel totally overwhelmed.

21

an elementary school, a basic teacher's aide for 26 years, and

22

even judging children was so hard for me.

23

people's personalities are more built to be a judge than

24

others, and quite honestly, I truly was never good at it.

25

I was an instructional assistant in

I think some

If there 's some other thing that -- I don't want to

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 96 of 281 PageID# 4813
96
1

be a terrible American, but this is the third time that I've

2

actually been over here, and I am --

3

THE COURT:

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yeah.

5

THE COURT:

And you were never selected

6

Your were called for jury duty?

All right.

as a juror?

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

8

THE COURT:

9

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

10
11
12
13

THE COURT:

No, I wasn't.

All right.
And --

All right, thank you, Ms. Ingalsbe.

Thank you.
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I just feel like it's

important to be honest --

14

THE COURT:

All right.

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

-- about what's inside of a

16

person's personality, and I've sat here trying to speak out and

17

not being able to, but I find this all very, very intimidating.

18

THE COURT:

Would you feel it difficult to express

19

yourself in front of the other jurors if you were a juror and

20

there are other 11 other people in the room?

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

22

THE COURT:

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

24
25

Would you --

I definitely feel that way.

All right.
I don't really feel like it's

a part of what I could actually do.
THE COURT:

All right, thank you, ma'am.

You're free

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 97 of 281 PageID# 4814
97
1

to go.

2

Good morning.

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

4

Good morning.

The name is

Angela Keaton.

5

THE COURT:

Keaton.

Yes, Ms. Keaton.

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I home school my sixth grade

7

son, and he also has some educational learning disabilities, so

8

I'm also the go-between between the therapist, and that's also

9

done on a weekly basis.

10
11

THE COURT:

the home schooling, like your husband --

12
13

Is there anybody else who's involved in

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

My husband, but he works, so

he could probably only do, like, one day a week.

14

THE COURT:

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE COURT:

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

18

THE COURT:

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

20

THE COURT:

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

22

THE COURT:

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

24

conflicts.

25

private day school.

All right.

And what grade level?
Sixth grade.

Sixth grade?
Um-hum.

All right, thank you, ma'am.
Um-hum.

Yes, sir, your name, please?
McCool, M-c-C-o-o-l.

Yes, Mr. McCool.
I have three possible

First of all, I'm a teacher with special needs at a
I have issues with my children's

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 98 of 281 PageID# 4815
98
1

programming and educational issues --

2

THE COURT:

Wait, do they have substitute teachers

3

who cover when you're not there?

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Really we're a small school.

5

We have one person there to cover.

6

there would be testing, too, which I need to be present for.

7

Additionally, I have a pending civil court matter in

8

Fairfax on the 26th.

9

THE COURT:

10
11

They might do anything, but

I need to go to court.
Are you a party in that case?

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I am.

I am actually the

defendant.

12

THE COURT:

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Small claims, civil.

14

THE COURT:

That's January 26?

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE COURT:

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

18

THE COURT:

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

20

And what kind of a case is it?

All right.

Yes, ma'am, 9:30 a.m.

All right, thank you, Mr. McCool.
Yes, ma'am.

Yes, ma'am, your name, please?
My name is Sozina Khan.

The

last name is K-h-a-n.

21

THE COURT:

Yes, Ms. Khan.

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yes.

I have a medical

23

problem.

I am 65 years old, and I'm diabetic and high blood

24

pressure, and I cannot control my bladder.

25

control problem, and I have to run to the bathroom back and

I have a bladder

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 99 of 281 PageID# 4816
99
1

forth.

2

THE COURT:

If we took breaks, I mean, would you be

3

comfortable raising your hand and saying, "I need a break," and

4

we'd just give you a five-minute break?

5

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

6

very great difficulty today.

7

the bathroom.

8
9

THE COURT:

I have to rush back and forth to

And it makes it hard for you to

concentrate?

10
11

I've been sitting here with

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

It makes it very hard, and it

gives me pain.

12

THE COURT:

All right, Ms. Khan.

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

And then I have another

14

reason.

I'm running two programs for mentally challenged

15

people, and I am a decision-maker person, so if I have to be

16

here for this long period of time, it's going to be difficult.

17

THE COURT:

All right, thank you, Ms. Khan.

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

THE COURT:

20

Yes, your name, please?

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

22

THE COURT:

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Thank you.

All right, the next person?

Ross Banfield.

Yes, Mr. Banfield.
I am a proprietor of a small

24

construction company, I have 197 employees, and we are

25

struggling to make payroll.

Additionally, I am manning a

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 100 of 281 PageID# 4817
100
1

21-day discovery period in the middle of findings for a divorce

2

case, which is on the docket in Warrenton February 14, so I, I

3

would -- my mind would not be here.

4
5

THE COURT:
involved with?

6

Well, I mean, how much discovery are you

Do you go to all the depositions?

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No.

I have to put all the

7

financial documentation together about the company's finances

8

and my finances.

9

THE COURT:

Oh, oh, because of distribution issues.

10

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

11

THE COURT:

12

And where are you in that process at this

point?

13
14

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I just received notice

yesterday.

15

THE COURT:

16

Yes, sir.

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

18

Yes, that's correct.

name is Keric Hopkins.

Okay.

Thank you.

Good morning, Your Honor.

My

I'm Juror No. 48.

19

THE COURT:

Yes, sir.

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

My company only provides two

21

weeks of paid jury leave, and I do not have enough personal

22

leave to cover myself financially for the amount of time that

23

you say this trial is going to take, and that would be -- I'll

24

put this in extreme financial hardship on me to have to serve

25

on this jury past about two, two-and-a-half weeks.

I just

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 101 of 281 PageID# 4818
101
1

don't have the money to cover my bills.

2

The other issue is I'm a Type 1-1/2 diabetic, and my

3

blood sugar is rather unpredictable, and when it starts

4

crashing, I need to eat, and that would probably interfere -- I

5

understand you're going to give us breaks and stuff --

6

THE COURT:

Yeah.

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

8

is going to happen to me, so --

9

THE COURT:

-- but I can't tell when this

All right, thank you, Mr. Hopkins.

10

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Thank you, Your Honor.

11

(End of bench conference.)

12

THE COURT:

Folks, you don't have to come to the

13

bench unless you really want to, so if it's not a personal

14

matter, we'll get you on the record, but you can stay in your

15

seat.

So I'm just letting you know that.

16

(Bench conference on the record.)

17

THE COURT:

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

Scott Brown, B-r-o-w-n.

It's

My wife has a medical procedure this week, a

21

colonoscopy.

22

I believe.

23

father in St. Louis.

25

Your name again?

under Norman.

20

24

Yes, sir.

I'm the only one home, so I need to be with her,
Next week, she's traveling visiting her ailing
I'm the only one home for that.

Later next week, I have business travel, and then the
topper is the following week, we have expensive ticket

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 102 of 281 PageID# 4819
102
1

reservations for Utah to an event.

2
3

THE COURT:

All right.

you've got prepaid tickets?

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

THE COURT:

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

7

THE COURT:

8

So the last week of January,

juror?

9

Yeah, yeah.

All right, thank you, sir.
Okay.

All right, the next witness -- the next

Yes, sir, your name, please?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

10

THE COURT:

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Matthew Balser, B-a-l-s-e-r.

Yes, Mr. Balser.
As of yesterday, I was

12

accepted and enrolled into a mandatory one-month training

13

academy for employment at the NRL in Chantilly, and it would

14

start Monday the 19th.

15

THE COURT:

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

17

How are you employed right now?
A different

job.

18

THE COURT:

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

20

Not by the NRL.

All right, so it's a new job.
But in order to get it, I

must attend this academy 8 a.m. to 5 p.m.

21

THE COURT:

Okay.

Thank you, sir.

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

23

THE COURT:

24

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

25

THE COURT:

Thank you.

Yes, sir, your name, please?
Matthew Friel.

Yes, Mr. Friel.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 103 of 281 PageID# 4820
103
1
2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:
student.

3
4

I'm a full-time college

THE COURT:
your age.

5

Yeah, I thought you must be, looking at

George Mason?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No.

I'm actually going to

6

Northern Virginia Community College, but this is my final

7

semester before I transfer to George Mason actually.

8

THE COURT:

Okay.

9

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

10

of school-related obligations.

11

THE COURT:

12

I'm just going to have a lot

Are you on semester break right now or

are you actually back in classes?

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

My classes actually began

15

THE COURT:

They're five days a week?

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

14

17

yesterday.
All right.

Three days a week:

Monday,

Tuesday, and Thursday.

18

THE COURT:

And what time do they meet?

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

On Monday, it is from about

20

eight to twelve, Tuesday is about 12:30 to three, and about

21

12:30 to three on Thursday as well.

22

THE COURT:

F-r-i-e-l is the last name?

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

24

THE COURT:

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yes, ma'am.

Thank you, Mr. Friel.
Thank you.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 104 of 281 PageID# 4821
104
1

THE COURT:

Yes, ma'am, your name, please?

2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

3

THE COURT:

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

THE COURT:

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

7

THE COURT:

8

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

9

diabetic, and sometimes I shake.

Maridel Anderson.

How do you spell the last name?
A-n-d-e-r-s-o-n, Anderson.

Maridel.
Yes.

Yes, ma'am.

10

THE COURT:

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I have a diabetic -- I'm a

Okay.
And I'm doing home day care

12

in the house, and I babysit also my grandbaby because my

13

daughter, she go to school.

14

THE COURT:

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE COURT:

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

18

All right, thank you, ma'am.

Yes, ma'am.
Good morning, Your Honor.

My

name is Jovelita Fonseca, Your Honor.

19

THE COURT:

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

21

THE COURT:

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

23

Thanks.

Can you spell your last name?
F-o-n-s-e-c-a.

Fonseca?
Yes.

I've been sick with

bronchitis for --

24

THE COURT:

I'm sorry?

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I've been sick with

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 105 of 281 PageID# 4822
105
1

bronchitis for almost a month now.

2

THE COURT:

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I'm not being --

4

THE COURT:

Are you having trouble

5

So you're feeling sick today?

All right.

understanding my English?

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No, Your Honor.

7

THE COURT:

But you're just not feeling

8
9

All right.

well?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

10

THE COURT:

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

12

THE COURT:

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

14

THE COURT:

15

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

16

THE COURT:

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yes.

All right, thank you, Ms. Fonseca.
Thank you, Your Honor.

Yes, ma'am, your name, please?
Yvonne Stephens.

What's the last name?
Stephens.

Yes, Ms. Stephens.

Yes, ma'am.

For two reasons:

One, I have

18

two elderly parents that are really sick, and at any time, I

19

would have probably the need to go out of town to go check on

20

them because they have been in and out of the hospital, as well

21

as I work at a university, I'm the director of one of the labs,

22

and they have nobody to keep that lab open while I'm here,

23

because like today, it's shut, so the students and no one can

24

use the labs.

25

THE COURT:

Which school do you work for?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 106 of 281 PageID# 4823
106
1
2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:
Washington.

3

THE COURT:

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

THE COURT:

6

University of Mary

And they don't have another lab director?
No, I'm the only one.

So how many students are dislocated

today?

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

8

THE COURT:

9

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Quite a few.

What kind of a lab is it?

10

THE COURT:

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

It's a language lab.

Language lab.
And the students come in to

12

do listening lessons on the computers, and sometimes they have

13

films they've got to watch, and classes are sometimes held in

14

there as well.

15
16

THE COURT:

And so they can't use that lab if you're

not there?

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

18

THE COURT:

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

20

is Lien Tran.

21
22

Exactly.

All right, thank you, Ms. Stephens.
Good morning, Judge.

My name

T-r-a-n the last name.

THE COURT:

I'm sorry, how do you spell the last

name?

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

24

THE COURT:

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

T-r-a-n.

It's Tran.
Yes.

I have appointment on

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 107 of 281 PageID# 4824
107
1

today I already cancel and have appointment next one for my

2

eye, I have some problem with my eye, on January 30.

3

THE COURT:

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

THE COURT:

6

On January 30.
Yes, 9:30.

Where would that appointment be?

What

jurisdiction?

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

The appointment for my eye

8

because I have diabetes, so seven months already, after that

9

they have to check up on my eyes.

10

THE COURT:

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

12

Where is the appointment?

Pike.

13

THE COURT:

14

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

15

THE COURT:

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

17

THE COURT:

18

Falls Church?
Yes.

What time is that?
9:30.

After that, could you be back here by

lunchtime?

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

20

THE COURT:

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

22

THE COURT:

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

24

THE COURT:

25

The appointment is Leesburg

Lunchtime?

What time?

I don't know, 11:00-noon?
(Nodding head.)

So the 30th is the only problem you have?
Yes, only 1-30.

Other than that, you don't have any

problem?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 108 of 281 PageID# 4825
108
1
2

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I don't know yet, but 30 is

the one important.

3

THE COURT:

All right, very good.

4

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

5

THE COURT:

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Thank you.

All right, thank you.

Yes, ma'am, your name, please?
Gilmore, Kristi Gilmore.

7

I just wanted to mention that my husband is legally blind.

8

mean, he's completely blind except in his left eye, which he

9

has light and dark perception, and he is employed, and it

And

10

shouldn't be a problem for me to serve unless there's a

11

emergency for me.

12

small fire at OPM, and I had to go pick him up, you know.

For instance, two weeks ago, there was a

13

So I just wanted to bring that --

14

THE COURT:

15

I

That's fine.

But otherwise, you could

serve as a juror?

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

17

THE COURT:

18

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

19

THE COURT:

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

21

THE COURT:

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Yes, yes.

All right, thank you, Ms. Gilmore.
Okay.

Thank you.

Yes, sir.
Hernandez.

Mr. Hernandez.
Yes.

And the reason I wanted

23

to come up here is because I know this is a special case, and I

24

believe I have some time that they use another car, I don't

25

understand, and I would like to be cleared from being part of

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 109 of 281 PageID# 4826
109
1

this jury.

2

THE COURT:

All right, thank you, Mr. Hernandez.

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

4

THE COURT:

5

(End of bench conference.)

6

THE COURT:

That's fine.

You can go back.

All right, ladies and gentlemen, I've

7

asked you a broad range of questions, and you-all, I think, now

8

understand the reason why I am asking you these questions, but

9

if there's any other thing in your life experience that you've

10

had or thing on your schedule that you haven't already told me

11

about that you feel could interfere with your ability to be a

12

fully attentive and impartial juror for the duration of the

13

trial, this is the time to let me know.

14
15

Is there anybody?

All right, some of you I've already heard from.
Ma'am, tell me your name again, please.

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

17

THE COURT:

18

hear from you again.

Donna Curtin.

All right, Ms. Curtin, I don't need to

19

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

20

THE COURT:

21

All right, the next person who had a hand up?

22

Okay.

Just one second.
Yes,

ma'am, your name, please?

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

24

THE COURT:

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Nancy Gofus.

Yes, Ms. Gofus.
And I am supposed to be

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 110 of 281 PageID# 4827
110
1

attending a conference for training incoming board chairs

2

beginning January 25.

3

College of William and Mary Foundation Board.

4
5

THE COURT:

I'm the incoming board chair on the

If you were unable to attend that, would

that be a serious problem for you or your school?

6

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

You know, the college has

7

invested money for me to be an attendee of this, and I think

8

that would be lost.

9

THE COURT:

10
11

That is the issue.
And would that be all that day or just --

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

It's a Sunday-through-Tuesday conference.

12

THE COURT:

13

Who else?

14

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

15

THE COURT:

16

No, it's in Naples, Florida.

All right, thank you, ma'am.
Yes, your name, please?
Gabriel Chu.

I don't need to hear from you, Mr. Chu.

Thank you.

17

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

18

THE COURT:

19

Yes, ma'am, your name, please?

20

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

21

THE COURT:

22

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

23

You do not?

No, that's all right.

I just think that I --

I need your name.
Oh, I'm sorry, Rebecca

Miller.

24

THE COURT:

Yes, Ms. Miller.

25

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

I think I may know just

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 111 of 281 PageID# 4828
111
1

professionally the sister of one of the attorneys on this side,

2

of Mr. MacMahon.

3

small town, and so if he has a relative that's in the same

4

business that I am, we may have worked together before.

5

need to disclose that.

6

I'm not 100 percent sure, but Middleburg is a

THE COURT:

In any respect, do you feel -- first of

7

all, Mr. MacMahon, do you have a sister who works in

8

Middleburg?

9
10

MR. MAC MAHON:

12
13
14

Two sisters, Your Honor.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

11

So I

I only know one.

(Laughter.)
THE COURT:

All right.

And, I mean, would you

consider yourself a close friend?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

No, not at all.

It's

15

strictly professional, and I don't think it would influence my

16

decision in any way, shape, or form, but I felt like I needed

17

to disclose that.

18

THE COURT:

19

All right, and was there somebody else?

20

Thank you, Ms. Miller.

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

22

THE COURT:

23

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

25

Yes, in the

back there, your name, please?

21

24

That's fine.

Mr. Lee?

Steve Lee.
Yes.
I've got personal foreign

travel scheduled from the 22nd through the 25th.
THE COURT:

And is that prepaid?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 112 of 281 PageID# 4829
112
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

2

THE COURT:

3

Anybody else?

4

All right, thank you, sir.

7
8
9

Nobody else in the center.

Nobody on

the left?

5
6

Yes.

(No response.)
THE COURT:

All right, just on the right then.

Yes,

your name, sir?
THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Noureddine Elabassi.

I don't

know how you determine this, but I'm the sole owner, Your

10

Honor, of three businesses that employs about 70 people, and I

11

run the day-to-day operation for all the three businesses.

12
13

THE COURT:

Would it be possible for there to be

somebody else to do that for you while you're here?

14

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

15

THE COURT:

16

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

17
18

I have assistants.

You have assistants.
But there are certain jobs

that they do with their other jobs that I'm the sole person.
THE COURT:

Well, if you were chosen to be a juror,

19

would you feel in any respect pressure from your personal

20

business commitments such that they might be a distraction?

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

22

THE COURT:

23

Anybody else?

24

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

25

THE COURT:

Yes, ma'am.

All right, thank you, sir.
Yes, your name, please?
My name is Thuong Nguyen.

Yes, Mr. Nguyen.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 113 of 281 PageID# 4830
113
1

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

2

THE COURT:

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Juror No. 73.

Yes, sir.
I was a refugee coming from a

4

totalitarian regime, so I, from time to time, I have strong

5

opposition to those oppressive regime.

6

is going to affect my, this case.

7

THE COURT:

I don't know how that

Well, I mentioned that the Iranian

8

nuclear weapons program will be an issue in this case.

9

think because Iran is going to be a little bit involved in this

10

case, that that might be a problem for you?

11

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

12

to be as impartial as possible.

13

THE COURT:

14

Anybody else?

15

I don't think so.

(No response.)
THE COURT:

17

(Bench conference on the record.)

18

THE COURT:

All right.

Okay.

Counsel, approach the bench.

All right, first of all, is there

any objection to the Court's voir dire?

20

MR. OLSHAN:

21

MR. FITZPATRICK:

22

THE COURT:

23

I will try

All right, thank you, Mr. Nguyen.

16

19

Do you

I don't believe so.
No.

Any additional questions the government

wants the Court to ask the pool?

24

MR. FITZPATRICK:

25

MR. OLSHAN:

No.

No.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 114 of 281 PageID# 4831
114
1

THE COURT:

2

Any objection to the voir dire?

3

MR. MAC MAHON:

4

THE COURT:

5

No?

All right.

No, Your Honor.

Are there any additional questions you

want asked of the pool?

6

MR. MAC MAHON:

7

THE COURT:

8

we need to strike.

9

objection:

No, Your Honor.

All right.

Here are the ones who I think

You-all let me know if there's an

No. 1, Maridel Anderson; No. 2, David Anderson; No.

10

3, Matthew Balser; No. 4, Ross Banfield; 9, Norman Brown; 16,

11

Gabriel Chu; 19, Donna Curtin; 24, Noureddine Elabassi; 25,

12

Bernard Engel; 28, Jovelita Fonseca; 29, Matthew Friel; 34,

13

Kristine Gilson; 35, Paul Glen; 36, Nancy Gofus; 39, Kathleen

14

Gregorson; 44, Ivan Hernandez; 48, Keric Hopkins; 52, Nancy

15

Ingalsbe; 55, Angela Keaton; 56, Sozina Khan; 58, David Knox;

16

59, Steve Lee; 62, Matthew Lowman; 65, George McCool; 66, Peggy

17

McCoy.

18

MR. TRUMP:

What was the last one, Your Honor?

19

THE COURT:

McCoy.

20

79, Maria Pierce; 81, Margaret Rowe; 82, Gloria Ann

21

Roy; 86, Harriet Shriver; 88, Christopher Stanley; 90, Yvonne

22

Watson Stephens; 93, Sheena Tosta; and 95, Phan Vu.

23

66, McCoy.

All right, is there any objection to those?

Those

24

jurors either said they had conflicts that would result in

25

there being a hardship or they had medical issues or they have

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 115 of 281 PageID# 4832
115
1

biases or prejudices that gave the Court concern based upon

2

what they said during their answers.

3

MR. OLSHAN:

4

THE COURT:

5

MR. OLSHAN:

6

One moment.
Yeah.
Your Honor, I believe you said Juror 35,

Paul Glen.

7

THE COURT:

8

MR. OLSHAN:

9

MR. POLLACK:

10

MR. OLSHAN:

11

THE COURT:

12

MR. OLSHAN:

Yes.
I believe Mr. Paul stated that -We can't hear you.
I believe Mr. Paul stated that -Mr. Glen.
Excuse me, thank you.

Mr. Glen stated

13

that despite his employment, he could render a fair verdict in

14

this case.

15

THE COURT:

I was concerned about him just being too

16

close to the issues in this case.

17

everybody who has a clearance necessarily should be stricken,

18

but his answer concerned me.

19
20

What's your view on 35?

I'm not -- I don't think

Do you want him struck or

not?

21

MR. MAC MAHON:

22

THE COURT:

23

MR. OLSHAN:

24

THE COURT:

25

MR. MAC MAHON:

Yes, Your Honor.

Yeah, I'm going to continue with that.
For cause.
For cause, yeah.
I have him circled for that reason.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 116 of 281 PageID# 4833
116
1
2

THE COURT:

Yeah.

any objections to the ones I've stricken for cause?

3

MR. MAC MAHON:

4

MR. TRUMP:

5

I don't believe so, Your Honor.

I take it, Your Honor, that you feel we

could work around 92?

6

THE COURT:

7

MR. MAC MAHON:

8

I've already -- did you-all have

Let me see.
Jim, can you speak up?

I can't hear

you, I'm sorry.

9

THE COURT:

Yes.

Mr. Trump asked if we could work

10

around -- I just, by our count, we have enough extra jurors.

11

The critical mass that we need for you to use all of your

12

strikes and we still get 14 jurors is 32, and we still have

13

some extra jurors that I can work with, and so I think I would

14

strike 92 because again, I'm concerned about any jurors who

15

can't be here for the full time.

16

29.

He had a conflict on January

17

That's what you're asking me?

18

MR. TRUMP:

19

I just didn't know whether it was

an oversight or you had already determined that.

20
21

Yes.

THE COURT:

No, I was concerned to make sure we had

enough jurors left in the pool, but 92 will also be out.

22

And that gives me also concern about 73, Mr. Nguyen,

23

who feels so strongly about totalitarian regimes that he might

24

have a problem in this case.

25

cause?

Anybody want him stricken for

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 117 of 281 PageID# 4834
117
1

If nobody's asking for it, I'll leave him in the

2

pool, but that gives me a little bit of a concern because Iran

3

is involved in this case.

Nobody cares?

4

MR. MAC MAHON:

No, not for the defense.

5

THE COURT:

6

Is there anybody else?

7

We have Mr. -- 84 is Sidney Shaw.

All right, we'll leave him in.

He's got a wife

8

with surgery on January 21.

He wasn't sure, but, you know,

9

again, I don't want all of a sudden on the 20th to hear that a

10

juror is not going to be here.

11

now?

12

You don't care?

13

MR. MAC MAHON:

14

MR. OLSHAN:

THE COURT:

If

There are enough jurors in the pool, let

me strike 84 as well, all right?

19
20

We don't have a position, either.

the Court -- if there are enough left --

17
18

I don't take a position on that, Your

Honor.

15
16

So do you want me to strike him

So were there any other people who the government
wants the Court to strike for cause?

21

While they're doing it, are there any others you-all

22

want stricken for cause?

23

MR. MAC MAHON:

Your Honor, if it's okay, we are both

24

keeping different lists, but I had David Anderson as a CIA

25

employee.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 118 of 281 PageID# 4835
118
1

THE COURT:

2

MR. MAC MAHON:

3

He's out.
He's already out.

And then a man

named Frith, he's a military officer.

4

MR. TRUMP:

What number?

5

MR. MAC MAHON:

He's 30.

He wasn't as close as the

6

other one you struck, but I thought he was also a little too

7

close for comfort.

8
9
10
11

THE COURT:

No, I didn't see anything.

pretty carefully when they answer.
straight shooter.

I watch them

I think he can be a

I'll overrule that request.

MR. MAC MAHON:

And the gentleman -- oh, we already

12

got him, I think -- who talked about the hung jury, I think

13

that's Mr. Anderson again.

14

MR. OLSHAN:

15

THE COURT:

16

MR. MAC MAHON:

17

Mr. Pollack may have something that -- we haven't had

18
19
20

He's out.
Yes, he's out.
He's out.

a chance to coordinate.
MR. POLLACK:

Your Honor, I have in my notes No. 98,

Debra Williams --

21

THE COURT:

22

MR. POLLACK:

Right.
-- works for the Department of Homeland

23

Security but actually sits at the CIA and has had conversations

24

with members of the CIA.

25

I felt that she may be too steeped in --

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 119 of 281 PageID# 4836
119
1

THE COURT:

Well, you know, she sat on two juries,

2

and one was a not guilty verdict, so, I mean, she clearly knows

3

how to be an impartial judge.

4

MR. POLLACK:

I understand, but there's a difference

5

between a domestic abuse case and a case involving national

6

security issues, and that's her area of expertise.

7

THE COURT:

Well, I don't think that necessarily

8

disqualifies a person.

9

enough, any of what she said to give me concern.

10

I don't think again that there was

understand your concern, but I'm going to overrule it.

11

MR. POLLACK:

12

MR. OLSHAN:

13

THE COURT:

15

MR. OLSHAN:

16

THE COURT:

MR. OLSHAN:

THE COURT:

Okay.
You've got all your strikes.

Don't worry

The only issue is when we hand the

You might lose one or two, but we're all

right.

22

MR. OLSHAN:

23

THE COURT:

24
25

There's enough.

jurors a list of witnesses, we could lose a couple more.

20
21

I was just curious if the Court has done

about it.

18
19

Thank you, Your Honor.

a rough count of about how many we've got left after all these.

14

17

So I

Okay.
Anything further?
(No response.)

THE COURT:

I think given the hour, since you're up

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 120 of 281 PageID# 4837
120
1

here, what we're going to do is once we get the jury seated and

2

I've given them preliminary instructions, we'll take the lunch

3

break.

4

without a break because there's not going to be enough time for

5

you to do an opening statement before 1:00, all right?

So the two opening statements will be back to back

6

And it does mean we will be calling witnesses today,

7

so your first couple of witnesses need to be in the building by

8

2:00 or so.

9

MR. OLSHAN:

10
11

THE COURT:

We will be prepared.

this moving.

Anything further?

Because we need to get

No?

12

MR. POLLACK:

13

THE COURT:

(Shaking head.)
All right, then I find the remainder of

14

the pool to be without objection, and we'll go ahead and we'll

15

start selecting them.

16

explain to them that you'll show them the list of witnesses,

17

give them a minute to see if they recognize any of the names.

18

If they don't, they'll return the list to Mr. Wood, and then

19

we'll go ahead and do the strikes, okay?

20
21

Once we have the 14 in the box, I'll

MR. OLSHAN:

Your Honor, if they do recognize a name,

we'll all come up here?

22

THE COURT:

Yes.

I'm going to ask them to approach

23

the bench, and we'll do that up here at the bench, all right?

24

Very good.

25

MR. MAC MAHON:

Thank you, Your Honor.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 121 of 281 PageID# 4838
121
1

(End of bench conference.)

2

THE CLERK:

If I call your name, please come forward

3

and have a seat in the jury box:

4

Brosnahan; Juror No. 68, Vernon Michelsen; Juror No. 89, Kim

5

Stenberg; Juror No. 57, Sandra Khouri; Juror No. 94, Lien Tran;

6

Juror No. 43, Alan Herman; Juror No. 101, Suzanne Yerks.

7

THE COURT:

8

have to keep you in order here.

9

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 8, Kelsey

Mr. Herman, you need to go in first.

We

Juror No. 70, Rebecca Miller; Juror No.

10

5, Donna Beitzel; Juror No. 30, Steven Frith; Juror No. 78,

11

Nancy Perry; Juror No. 37, Amanda Granlund; Juror No. 42, David

12

Harrison; Juror No. 26, Gregory Fabian.

13

THE COURT:

Now, ladies and gentlemen, before we,

14

before we get started, Mr. Wood is going to give each of you a

15

slip of paper that has a list of potential witness names on it.

16

Actually, my law clerk is going to do this for you.

17

each to look at the list of names, and let us know if you

18

believe you recognize any of the names on this list.

19

We need one more for the first row.

20

All right, do each of you have a list?

21

24
25

We need one

more for the -- yeah.

22
23

I want you

Do any of you recognize any of the names on that
list?

I'm sorry, if you do, you need to raise your hand.
All right, let me start in the front row.

Yes,

you're Mr. Mickelson?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 122 of 281 PageID# 4839
122
1

MR. OLSHAN:

2

THE COURT:

3

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

4

Yeah.

I'm sorry.

THE COURT:
Rice, thank you.

All right, putting aside Condaleezza

Other than that, is there any other name?

7

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

8

THE COURT:

9
10
11

14
15

attention.
Ladies and gentlemen, other than Condaleezza Rice,
are there any other names on that list that anybody recognizes?
(No response.)
THE COURT:

No?

You can return those lists to

Mr. Wood, please.
THE CLERK:

If I call your name, please -- you may

16

exit the courtroom.

17

before exiting the building.

18

No, ma'am.

Thank you for bringing that to our

12
13

The name Condaleezza Rice,

everybody knows who that is.

5
6

Your Honor, can we approach?

Please check in with the Clerk's Office

Juror No. 94, Lien Tran; Juror No. 70, Rebecca

19

Miller; Juror No. 89, Kim Stenberg; Juror No. 5, Donna Beitzel;

20

Juror No. 30, Steven Frith; Juror No. 68, Vernon Michelsen;

21

Juror No. 78, Nancy Perry.

22
23
24
25

If I call your name, please come forward and have a
seat in the jury box.
THE COURT:

And, Mr. Wood, as you put the new juror

in the box, give them the list, yeah.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 123 of 281 PageID# 4840
123
1

Juror No. 49, Aaron Hunt; Juror No. 41, Jennie Hamm;

2

Juror No. 11, James Carnes; Juror No. 40, Kathleen Halasz;

3

Juror No. 6, Laura Billings; Juror No. 73, Thuong Nguyen; Juror

4

No. 12, Anne Cassidy.

5

THE COURT:

The newly called persons, again, other

6

than Condaleezza Rice, do any of you recognize any of the

7

witnesses on that list that's been given to you?

8

Anybody?

No?

9

(Jurors shaking heads.)

10
11

THE COURT:

All right, then the seven jurors who just

got the -- get the list from them first.

12

If you'll just hand those up to us, please?

13

THE CLERK:

14

courtroom.

15

exiting the building.

16

11, James Carnes.

17

Please check in with the Clerk's Office before
Juror No. 40, Kathleen Halasz; Juror No.

If I call your name, please come forward and have a

18

seat in the jury box:

19

Charles Hoffman.

20

If I call your name, you may exit the

THE COURT:

Juror No. 51, Andrew Ihle; Juror No. 47,

And again, Mr. Hoffman and Mr. Ihle, I'll

21

ask you to look at that list and see other than Condaleezza

22

Rice, whether you recognize any of the names on that list.

23
24
25

No?

(Jurors shaking heads.)
THE COURT:

No?

All right, very good.

Hand the list

back to Mr. Wood.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 124 of 281 PageID# 4841
124
1
2

MR. MAC MAHON:

We

couldn't see which one was Mr. Ihle when he came in.

3

THE COURT:

Mr. Ihle, would you mind standing up?

4

(Prospective Juror Ihle stood.)

5

MR. MAC MAHON:

6

THE CLERK:
courtroom.

8

exiting the building.

9

Thank you, sir.

If I call your name, you may exit the

7

10

Your Honor, we were blocked.

Please check in with the Clerk's Office before
Juror No. 47, Charles Hoffman.

If I call your name, please come forward and have a
seat in the jury box.

11

THE COURT:

Juror No. 83, Gregory Scites.
Do you recognize any names, Mr. Scites?

12

(Prospective Juror shaking head.)

13

THE COURT:

No?

Thank you.

14

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 83, Gregory Scites, you may

15

exit the courtroom.

16

before exiting the building.

17
18

If I call your name, please come forward and have a
seat in the jury box.

19
20

Please check in with the Clerk's Office

THE COURT:

Juror No. 60, Caitlin Lhommedieu.
Ms. Lhommedieu, do you see any names on

that list?

21

(Prospective Juror shaking head.)

22

THE COURT:

No?

All right, thank you.

23

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 60, Caitlin Lhommedieu, you may

24

exit the courtroom.

Please check in with the Clerk's Office

25

before exiting the building.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 125 of 281 PageID# 4842
125
1
2

Juror No. 71, Amanda Morris, please come forward and
have a seat in the jury box.

3
4

THE COURT:

Ms. Morris, do you recognize any names?

No?

5

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

6

THE COURT:

All right, thank you.

7

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 71, Amanda Morris, you may exit

8

the courtroom.

9

exiting the building.

10
11

No.

Please check in with the Clerk's Office before

Juror No. 74, Scott Oden, please come forward and
have a seat in the, in the jury box.

12

THE COURT:

13

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

14

THE COURT:

All right, thank you, sir.

15

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 74, Scott Oden, you may exit

16

the courtroom.

17

exiting the building.

18
19

Mr. Oden, you don't recognize any names?
No.

Please check in with the Clerk's Office before

Juror No. 80, Manavi Puri, please come forward and
have a seat in the jury box.

20

THE COURT:

21

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

22

THE COURT:

All right, thank you.

23

THE CLERK:

Juror No. 80, Manavi Puri, you may exit

24

the courtroom.

25

exiting the building.

No, Ms. Puri?

No names?

No.

Please check in with the Clerk's Office before

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 126 of 281 PageID# 4843
126
1
2

Juror No. 76, Mahesh Panwar, please come forward and
have a seat in the jury box.

3
4

THE COURT:

Mr. Panwar, do you recognize any names on

that list?

5

THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR:

Not on the list.

6

THE COURT:

All right, thank you.

7

THE CLERK:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, would

8

you please stand and raise your right hand.

9

(Jurors affirmed.)

10

THE COURT:

All right, we have now selected the 14

11

people who will be our jury.

12

the pool for being here this morning.

13

leave at this time.

Please leave quietly.

14

the Clerk's Office.

We do appreciate your attendance this

15

morning.

16

I want to thank the remainder of
You are all free to
Check out through

I know it's been a long morning, folks, and in about

17

five minutes, I'm going to give you your morning lunch break,

18

all right?

19

you some very important instructions.

20

But I do want to take just a few minutes to give

Mr. Panwar and Ms. Brosnahan, if you look to your

21

right, you'll see a series of pads and paper.

22

to be a long trial, I'm giving each of you, so if you could

23

just, you know, take and pass them down, a pen and notepad if

24

you want to take notes during the trial.

25

Since it's going

Now, I just need to give you a caution because there

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 127 of 281 PageID# 4844
127
1

actually are a lot of judges who don't let jurors take notes.

2

There's a fear that you'll be so involved in writing things

3

down, you won't be watching the witnesses or really paying

4

attention, and we don't want your note taking to be a

5

distraction, but there are people who find that taking notes

6

helps them keep their attention focused, and it makes them more

7

comfortable when they have to decide something, so we're giving

8

you notebooks.

9

You should understand that your notes are by no means

10

a full record of what the proceedings are.

11

trained court stenographer, I don't believe we have any

12

stenographers here, and in any case, you should make sure that

13

you understand your notes are simply an individual memory aid.

14

Your notes are not evidence.

15

other jurors.

16

None of you is a

They're not to be shared with the

They're just there to help you.

Anytime we have a recess, your notes will be

17

collected by the clerk, and so you should probably put your

18

name so we get the right notebook back to you, and we'll get

19

them back to you at the beginning of each session of the

20

proceedings.

21

Now, I want to give you a little overview as to how a

22

trial is structured so you know what to expect.

When we get

23

back from the one-hour lunch break, we will begin with the

24

opening statements.

25

a preview of what each side believes the case will show.

The opening statements are just basically

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 128 of 281 PageID# 4845
128
1

You might think about an opening statement like the

2

cover of the box of a jigsaw puzzle.

3

puzzles, you know that the box cover has the completed picture.

4

You put all the pieces together, and this is what you get.

5

If any of you do those

But with opening statements, you often get two

6

different box covers, and at the end of the day, it will be

7

your job to decide whether any of those pictures have been met

8

by the evidence in the case.

9

Now, because the government has the burden of proof

10

in a criminal case, the rules allow the government to go first

11

at each stage of the trial, and that means that one of the

12

prosecutors will make the first opening statement, and then

13

defense counsel will have an opportunity to make an opening

14

statement on behalf of the defendant, in other words, to give

15

you a different box cover.

16

After we complete the opening statements, then we are

17

going to begin the evidence portion of the trial, and the

18

evidence in the trial consists of three categories of

19

information.

20

to a lawsuit agree that certain facts are the case and they're

21

not going to put any evidence on to establish that fact, they

22

can stipulate to the fact, and then it's up to you, the jury,

23

whether to accept the fact or not, but there won't be any

24

evidence presented to support that fact because the parties are

25

agreeing that it is the case.

First would be stipulations.

When both parties

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 129 of 281 PageID# 4846
129
1

The other type of evidence is the testimony of

2

witnesses.

3

case are going to be -- actually, there are more than one

4

exception.

5

testifying live in the courtroom from this witness box.

6

Now, with one exception, all the witnesses in this

Most of the witnesses in this case will be

As I indicated to you earlier, the first couple of

7

days, we're going to have witnesses who are -- whose identity

8

needs to be somewhat cloaked.

9

hear referred to by their first name and a last initial, like,

Those witnesses you will only

10

you know, Suzie S.

11

courtroom.

12

and you've all told me that wouldn't be a problem for you in

13

evaluating that witness's testimony.

14

We will have a large screen across the

I alerted you earlier that we would be doing that,

When a witness is called, the side that calls that

15

witness first conducts what we call the direct examination.

16

Now, since the government goes first, it's going to call all of

17

its witnesses and put all its evidence on first.

18

government will call their first witness, ask all the questions

19

they have of the witness.

20

opportunity to ask questions of that witness.

21

cross-examination.

22

So the

Then defense counsel will have the
That's called

When the defense attorney has finished with that line

23

of questioning, if the government believes that they need to

24

address some of the issues that came up during the cross, they

25

get a chance to ask another round of questions.

That's called

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 130 of 281 PageID# 4847
130
1

the redirect.

2

round of questions.

3

And defense counsel can actually ask one last
That's called the recross.

Then we're done with that witness.

He or she steps

4

down, the next witness comes on, and we will go that way until

5

the government has called all of its witnesses.

6

We are also going to have a witness who will testify

7

via video deposition.

In that case, that particular witness

8

has a very serious medical condition and would not be able to

9

safely travel to the courthouse, and so what happened is last

10

week, he was deposed, and that means actually he was in a room,

11

he was under an oath to tell the truth.

12

Lawyers for both sides were present.

13

was present.

14

present at a distant location.

15

in the room.

16

prosecutor and the defense in exactly the same order:

17

exam, cross, redirect, recross.

18

A court stenographer was present.

A video camera
I was actually

The defendant, Mr. Sterling was

And that man was asked questions by both the
direct

So you will have that testimony, and I believe there

19

may be another witness coming in via a transcript.

Again, all

20

that testimony that you have was done with the witness being

21

under oath.

22

cases the witness physically in the courtroom, but you're to

23

give that testimony such credibility as you are able to.

You are at a disadvantage in not having in some

24

In any case, once the government has put on all of

25

its witnesses, the other thing the government will do during

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 131 of 281 PageID# 4848
131
1

its case-in-chief is move various exhibits -- physical

2

exhibits, documents, copies of cables, that sort of thing --

3

into evidence.

4

into evidence.

5

I believe chapter 9 of the book will be going

When the government has put all of its evidence in,

6

you will hear the prosecutors say that they rest.

7

they believe they've put on all of their evidence.

8
9

Then we turn to the defense.

That means

Now, in a criminal

case, because the defendant begins the trial with a presumption

10

of innocence, there is absolutely no obligation on a defendant

11

to put on any evidence whatsoever because it's the government's

12

burden to prove a defendant guilty.

13

burden on a defendant to prove his innocence.

14

legal system.

15

choose not to.

16

It is not -- there is no
That's not our

So the defense may put on evidence, or it may

If the defense does call witnesses, then we just

17

reverse the order; in other words, either Mr. Pollack or

18

Mr. MacMahon will ask the first line of questioning, that's the

19

direct examination; then the prosecutors can cross that

20

witness; and then if the defense counsel feel that something

21

came up during cross that they need to further address, they

22

have the redirect; and then the government can do a recross if

23

they feel it's necessary; and we go that way until the defense

24

has produced whatever evidence the defense wants to.

25

Lastly, the government does get a chance to rebut

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 132 of 281 PageID# 4849
132
1

that evidence if they want to put on a rebuttal case, in which

2

case we will then shift back with the government calling its

3

witness and doing the direct exam, and we'll go that way until

4

all the evidence is in.

5

Now, during the course of the trial, a lawyer may

6

object to a question that's being asked or to an answer that's

7

being given, and it's a lawyer's job to object when the lawyer

8

believes that something is happening in the trial that violates

9

some rule of law or some ruling that the Court has made, or in

10

this case, because we have potentially some classified

11

information, if there's a classification issue that has to be

12

addressed, and it's going to be my job as the judge to rule on

13

the objection.

14

Now, if I think that the objection has a good basis,

15

I will either say that I'm granting the objection or the

16

objection is sustained, and those words mean the same thing.

17

On the other hand, if I don't think that there's any problem, I

18

will either say "Objection overruled" or "denied," and those

19

words mean the same thing.

20

You must be careful not to draw any inference against

21

a party who may have made an objection or try to draw any

22

inference from my ruling.

23

denies an objection doesn't mean the court thinks that that

24

side should win or lose the case.

25

an umpire during a sporting event that simply calls a play the

The fact that a court grants or

It's much like a referee or

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 133 of 281 PageID# 4850
133
1

way that person thinks it should be called and doesn't do it to

2

help one side or to hurt the other.

3

Now, once all the evidence is in, the next phase of

4

the trial is what we call closing argument.

That's the time

5

when the lawyers are trying to argue from the evidence

6

presented during the trial to the ultimate conclusions they

7

want you to reach.

8

has the burden of proof; then the defense makes its closing

9

argument; and because of the burden of proof being so high on

Again, the government goes first because it

10

the government, they are allowed to make the final argument,

11

which is called a rebuttal.

12

Then it becomes my job as the judge to give you the

13

legal instructions that you must use in deciding the case.

I

14

will give those to you orally in court, but you will also have

15

written copies of those instructions that you will be able to

16

take into the jury room when you go to consider this case.

17

Now, it's extremely important that jurors follow

18

certain rules of conduct.

The first rule of conduct is, No. 1,

19

you should not start deciding any issue in this case until you

20

have heard all the evidence, all the arguments of counsel, and

21

gotten the instructions from the Court, and that means that

22

when you're on a break or a recess, you can get to know each

23

other, you can talk about the weather, about football season,

24

whatever you want to talk about.

25

because we don't want you to start making up your mind about

Do not talk about the trial

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 134 of 281 PageID# 4851
134
1

issues.

You know, if you start to make up your mind and then

2

more evidence comes in down the road, you may not be able to

3

fully evaluate that evidence or change your mind about it, so

4

it's important to keep an open mind.

5

It's also extraordinarily important to make sure that

6

your thought process is not contaminated by anything outside of

7

this courtroom, so since you're going to be here for many days

8

and there are lots of people in the courthouse, you may be

9

standing in line in the cafeteria downstairs and hear two

10

people talking about the case, or you may bump into one of the

11

prosecutors or defense counsel or somebody who's previously

12

testified.

13

You should stay away from any of those contacts.

If

14

you think you've overheard something, you need to get away from

15

it and bring it immediately to my attention.

16

If you bump into one of the lawyers in an elevator

17

and the lawyer is sort of rude, tries to avoid eye contact or

18

the normal human reaction of smiling when you see somebody you

19

recognize, do not take that as an insult.

20

trying to avoid any appearance of an out-of-court contact with

21

a juror which could be a problem, so please understand that.

22

The attorneys are

It's also extremely important in this age of the

23

Internet and electronic communications that you understand you

24

are not permitted to tweet, e-mail, or in any respect

25

correspond with anybody, including any other jurors, about this

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 135 of 281 PageID# 4852
135
1

case.

When you go home tonight, you can tell your family or

2

colleagues, you know, "I'm on jury duty.

3

in Alexandria for the next two or three weeks."

I'm going to be stuck

4

If they say, "What are you hearing?"

5

"I can't talk about it.

6

The judge told me I can't

discuss the case."

7

Because if you start to talk about the case, I

8

guarantee you, because Americans love trials, and criminal

9

trials especially seem to fascinate us, they're going to ask

10

you questions or give you their two cents' worth about the

11

case, and that's going to start contaminating your thought

12

process, so you must avoid that.

13

You may be curious about things that come up during

14

this case, but you cannot conduct any investigation.

That

15

means you can't go on the Internet and look up Mr. Risen or

16

other articles he may have written.

17

book.

You can't look up this

You can't look up anything about this case.

18

And there will most likely be some media coverage of

19

this case.

20

Post or The Times or whatever you read, or going on the

21

Internet and looking at news articles, but they cannot involve

22

this case or any issues that might be related to this case.

23

I'm not prohibiting you from reading The Washington

So any case -- any information about leaks, anything

24

about the Iranian nuclear program, even CIA, stay away from for

25

the next two or three weeks.

It shouldn't kill anybody to

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 136 of 281 PageID# 4853
136
1

avoid that kind of news.

2

you could read the theater page, you could read, you know,

3

about the mess on the subway, but just stay away from anything

4

that could possibly contaminate your thought process.

5

But you could read the sports page,

We're going to take the break at this point.

Again,

6

leave your notebooks with your names on them on your chairs.

7

We'll get them back to you.

8
9

You're not frozen to your seat.
sit anyplace in the jury box.

You're welcome to

When we come back from the lunch

10

break -- and I'm going to give you until 2:00 today, and when

11

we come back, as I say, we will start with the opening

12

statements.

13

All right?

So I'm going to let the jury go.

I want to keep

14

counsel here for one minute for some housekeeping matters, but

15

you can go with Mr. Wood.

16
17
18

He'll take you into the jury room.
(Jury out.)

THE COURT:

All right, any objection to the Court's

preliminary instructions to the jury?

19

MR. TRUMP:

No, Your Honor.

20

THE COURT:

Anything from the defense?

21

MR. MAC MAHON:

22

THE COURT:

23
24
25

No, Your Honor.

All right, you-all have a seat for just

one second.
It's come to my attention, and you're going to need
to take a minute or two with Ms. Gunning about the exhibits,

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 137 of 281 PageID# 4854
137
1

all right?

2

apparently the exhibit books are marked with a big "Secret" on

3

top.

4

Defense counsel raised an issue earlier that

MR. MAC MAHON:

I did, Your Honor.

I just -- and

5

there's dozens of them, and I think this is unduly suggestive.

6

There must be some other way to do this other than a bright red

7

flag.

8
9

THE COURT:

I want counsel to get with Ms. Gunning

during the break and figure out how you're marking these

10

exhibits, but also, I want to make sure that anything that's

11

being entered into evidence is in its proper format.

12

all I think I need to say to you at this point, all right?

That's

13

I assume the parties want a rule on the witnesses?

14

MR. MAC MAHON:

15

THE COURT:

Yes, Your Honor.

All right.

That means that other than

16

the case agent from the FBI and, of course, the defendant, no

17

other witness who's going to testify in this case may be in

18

court while testimony is being taken.

19

cannot be discussing with people outside of the courtroom who

20

are going to be witnesses the testimony that's been going on.

21

Everybody clear about that?

22

MR. MAC MAHON:

People who are in court

All right.

Other than as to Mr. Lang, Your

23

Honor, who is an expert witness, and Mr. Manners, who is in a

24

sense an expert, but no expert witness can watch the other

25

expert witnesses testify.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 138 of 281 PageID# 4855
138
1

THE COURT:

I thought we went through that before in

2

this case, but do both sides want their experts able to sit in

3

the courtroom and hear testimony?

4

MR. TRUMP:

Your Honor, we would ask -- we have a

5

rebuttal expert, Mr. Duelpher, who has no other role in the

6

case other than to hear what Mr. Lang has to say and rebut it.

7

I would object to having Mr. Manners hear testimony.

8

in the grand jury.

9

to the whole Risen issue.

He's been

He may have factual evidence as it relates
There are a lot of things going on

10

with Mr. Manners, I don't think he should sit here and listen

11

to testimony.

12
13

MR. MAC MAHON:

We'll withdraw as to Mr. Manners,

Your Honor.

14

THE COURT:

All right, so just Lang and your

16

MR. TRUMP:

Mr. Duelpher.

17

THE COURT:

Mr. Duelpher and Mr. Lang can stay in the

MR. TRUMP:

And Mr. Duelpher would only be here for

THE COURT:

All right, that's fine.

15

18

rebuttal?

courtroom.

19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Mr. Lang.
All right,

shouldn't be a problem with that.
All right, anything else before we get started?
Forty minutes more or less for the opening statements.
Any other issue?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 139 of 281 PageID# 4856
139
1

MR. MAC MAHON:

2

THE COURT:

3

MR. MAC MAHON:

4

MR. TRUMP:

What time are we coming back?

5

THE COURT:

2:00.

6

MR. TRUMP:

2:00.

7

THE COURT:

All right.

8
9

No, Your Honor.

No?
Not from defense.

Very good, we'll recess court

until then.
(Recess from 1:00 p.m., until 2:00 p.m.)

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 140 of 281 PageID# 4857
140
1

A F T E R N O O N

2

S E S S I O N

(Defendant and Jury present.)

3

THE COURT:

All right, Mr. Trump, are you making the

5

MR. TRUMP:

Yes, Your Honor.

6

THE COURT:

All right.

4

opening?

7

OPENING STATEMENT

8

BY MR. TRUMP:

9
10

May it please the Court, defense counsel.
Again, my name is Jim Trump.

It's my pleasure with

11

Eric Olshan and Dennis Fitzpatrick to represent the United

12

States in this case.

13

The defendant, Jeffrey Sterling, once worked for the

14

Central Intelligence Agency, the CIA.

15

spy if you will.

16

Secret, Secret files, and as you will learn, between 1998 and

17

2000, the defendant was assigned to a very closely held and

18

highly classified operation involving Iran and its nuclear

19

weapons program.

20

He was a case officer, a

He had access to classified information, Top

He was responsible for the safety and security of a

21

very valuable human asset working with the CIA on that

22

operation, a Russian nuclear weapons engineer whose role in the

23

operation and whose association with the CIA was a closely

24

guarded secret.

25

When the defendant went to work with the CIA, he

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 141 of 281 PageID# 4858
141
1

promised never, ever to disclose its secrets.

2

writing to guard and protect forever the classified information

3

with which he was entrusted, and he broke that promise.

4

defendant betrayed his country; he betrayed his colleagues; he

5

betrayed the CIA and compromised its mission; and most

6

importantly, he betrayed the Russian asset, a man who literally

7

placed his trust and his life into the defendant's hands.

8
9

And why?

He promised in

Anger, bitterness, selfishness.

The

The

defendant struck back at the CIA because he thought he had been

10

treated unfairly.

He had sued the agency for discrimination

11

and demanded that they pay him $200,000 to settle his claim.

12

When the agency refused, he struck back with the only weapon he

13

had:

secrets, the agency's secrets.

14

The defendant is charged in a ten-count indictment.

15

At its core, the indictment charges the defendant with having

16

disclosed what is called national defense information.

17

disclosed it to a reporter, James Risen in The New York Times,

18

first in March and April of 2003 and then again between 2004

19

and 2005.

20

case was then passed on to the public with the publication of

21

Mr. Risen's book, State of War, in early 2006.

22

He

The national defense information at issue in this

The case will, excuse me, the case will unfold

23

essentially in two somewhat overlapping parts.

First, to

24

understand the case and to prove to you that the information

25

disclosed by the defendant to Risen and eventually revealed

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 142 of 281 PageID# 4859
142
1

publicly in chapter 9 of his book is under the law of national

2

defense information, you will need to know what this operation

3

entailed, the significance of the human asset used in the

4

operation, and what the defendant knew and didn't know about

5

it.

6

You will hear testimony from a number of CIA case

7

officers about the operation, which we will call Classified

8

Program No. 1, as well as recorded testimony from the human

9

asset himself, whom will be called Human Asset No. 1, or

10
11

Merlin.
Second, you will need to know how the CIA became

12

aware in 2003 that the classified program, Program No. 1, was

13

compromised.

14

Office of Public Affairs, will testify about telephone

15

conversations with Risen in April 2003 and a subsequent White

16

House meeting between the national security advisor,

17

Condoleezza Rice, and The New York Times.

18

William Harlow, the former director of CIA's

You will also learn that the defendant had a source

19

relationship with James Risen in 2002; and the defendant's

20

relationship with Risen continued through 2004 and 2005 with

21

e-mails and telephone calls back and forth until the book's

22

publication in January of 2006; and at that point, the

23

relationship ended.

24
25

Finally, you must know why, why this is important,
why the compromise of the operation and the compromise of

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 143 of 281 PageID# 4860
143
1

Merlin potentially damaged national security.

2

The defendant worked for the CIA from 1993 through

3

January 31, 2002.

4

as a case officer; and as such, he understood the importance of

5

protecting a human asset's relationship with the CIA and the

6

importance of maintaining the secrecy of a CIA operation such

7

as Classified Program No. 1.

8

and he also developed a specialty in Iranian affairs.

9

the defendant was assigned to the agency's Counterproliferation

10

As I mentioned, he was trained and deployed

He had spent some time overseas,
In 1998,

Division at its Langley headquarters.

11

In October 1998, the defendant was asked to take over

12

as the case officer for Classified Program No. 1, which meant

13

moving to New York, which he did in early 1999.

14

time, early 1999 until May of 2000, he served as the case

15

officer for the operation, and he personally was responsible

16

for the Russian engineer Merlin.

17

From that

In October 1998, Classified Program No. 1 was already

18

two years old.

19

Iran's nuclear weapons program, an intelligence priority for

20

the CIA.

21

Iran's interest in acquiring nuclear technology.

22

It was designed to gather intelligence about

In a nutshell, the CIA thought it could exploit

With the help of a second Russian engineer, the

23

agency and the National Laboratory developed a set of very

24

sophisticated plans, plans for a Russian-designed fire set, a

25

key component to a detonation system of a nuclear weapon.

The

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 144 of 281 PageID# 4861
144
1

National Laboratory embedded secret flaws into the plans so

2

that the fire set would never work.

3

would appear genuine; but if Iran took the bait, it could spend

4

huge amounts of time and money trying to develop a fire set

5

that could not work and, in the process, hopefully convey

6

important information to the CIA about the status of its

7

nuclear weapons program.

8
9

In other words, the plans

But the CIA needed a salesman, someone who could pose
as a greedy Russian engineer seeking money for the fire set

10

plans, and Merlin fit that role exactly.

11

worked for the former Soviet Union and Russia as a nuclear

12

weapons expert in its nuclear weapons facility; and he was an

13

expert in the assembly of nuclear warheads.

14

with his family to the United States several years earlier and

15

subsequently began working with the CIA.

16

He had, in fact,

He had emigrated

When the defendant first became involved in the

17

operation, another case officer, Zach W., was responsible for

18

Merlin.

19

meeting was planned to introduce Merlin to his new case

20

officer, the defendant.

21

an opportunity to show Merlin for the first time the fire set

22

schematics, the bait for the Iranians, and explain to him in

23

more detail how the operation would work.

24
25

Zach W., however, was taking a new assignment; so a

The CIA decided to use this meeting as

They met in San Francisco at a hotel in January 1999:
Robert S., known to many in the operation as Bob, the manager

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 145 of 281 PageID# 4862
145
1

of the program from the Counterproliferation Division; Merlin;

2

the defendant; Zach W.; and Len, another CIA officer.

3

showed Merlin the documents that Merlin would offer the

4

Iranians, the fire set schematics and a parts list.

5

They

Merlin studied the plans and quickly noticed that the

6

schematics were missing several key components, and that was

7

intentional.

8

information so that the Iranians would come pay him for the

9

complete plans.

The plan was for Merlin to hold back some

Merlin never, never spotted the deeply

10

embedded hidden flaws in the plans.

11

been impossible.

12

Indeed, that would have

The second Russian engineer, the one who designed the

13

plans, had been unable to spot them; and a team of scientists

14

from the National Lab spent hundreds and hundreds of man-hours

15

pouring over the plans before detecting even some of the flaws.

16

Following the San Francisco meeting, the defendant

17

and Robert S. worked with Merlin when trying to find inroads

18

into the Iranian scientific community.

19

direction, Merlin had already been out there on the Internet,

20

so to speak, trying to reach out to Iranian scientists or

21

academics who might seem interested in what he was offering.

22

Under Zach W.'s

The defendant continued that effort with Merlin.

You

23

will see numerous CIA cables in which the defendant reported on

24

the progress being made by Merlin along with copies of e-mails

25

and suggestions for ways for Merlin to improve and hone his

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 146 of 281 PageID# 4863
146
1

approach.

2

the fire set schematics, exchanging several drafts and having

3

Merlin work on ways to improve the sales pitch to the Iranians.

4

They also worked on a letter that would accompany

Now, this letter is important because a copy of it

5

appears in chapter 9 of Risen's book.

6

mischaracterized in that book as something Merlin hastily did

7

on his own ostensibly to warn the Iranians about the hidden

8

flaws in the schematics, when, in fact, it was a letter that

9

the defendant and Merlin worked on for months.

10

The letter is completely

The letter simply reconfirms Merlin's offer.

He has

11

a fire set.

The plans -- he has fire set plans, but they are

12

incomplete.

If the Iranians want the complete package, they

13

will have to pay him.

14

In late 1999, Merlin's sales pitch on the Internet

15

paid off; and an Iranian official expressed interest in what he

16

was selling.

A delivery was planned for Vienna, Austria, in

17

early 2000.

Merlin and the defendant worked on the finishing

18

touches of the letter in January.

19

Merlin flew to Vienna, Austria, at the end of

20

February 2000.

He went with his wife, playing the role of a

21

tourist.

22

he stored electronically on a disk so he could print it out

23

once he got to Vienna, to his Vienna hotel.

24

everything went pretty much as planned, and Merlin delivered

25

the package to the Iranian mission of the IAEA, the

He carried the fire set plans with him.

The letter

Once in Vienna,

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 147 of 281 PageID# 4864
147
1

International Atomic Energy Association, together with his

2

letter, and he returned to the United States.

3

Back in New York, the defendant and Robert S. briefed

4

Merlin on his trip.

5

that the plans had been taken from Vienna to Iran; but Merlin

6

had not yet been contacted by anyone about his delivery.

7

At that time, the CIA had intelligence

In May 2000, however, the defendant was being

8

replaced in New York by another agent, another case agent --

9

excuse me, case officer, Stephen Y.

The defendant's role in

10

the operation was over, and he no longer had access to its

11

files, to its cables, any documents or information about

12

Merlin, and the future of the operation.

13

Now, at this point, no one had raised any concerns

14

about the operation, particularly concerns that we were giving

15

away nuclear technology.

16

CIA that that could not happen.

17

Counterproliferation Division; no concerns among senior

18

management, case officers, Merlin, the National Laboratory; and

19

significantly, no concerns expressed by the defendant.

20

In fact, the lab had certified to the
No concerns within the

The defendant expressed no such concerns to his

21

management in New York, to the inspector general.

Nothing came

22

up in his personnel evaluations.

23

with the agency, he never expressed any concerns that this was

24

a bad operation, a flawed operation, in any respect.

25

when he took an employment grievance to the House Select

Even during his litigation

Indeed,

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 148 of 281 PageID# 4865
148
1

Committee on Intelligence, not a word, not a word was said

2

about Classified Program No. 1, nothing.

3

That all changed on March 5, 2003.

4

CIA had rejected his settlement offer of $200,000, the

5

defendant met with two Senate staffers, Don Stone and Vicki

6

Divoll, both who will testify later during this trial.

7

defendant described generally Classified Program No. 1; but for

8

the first time, for the first time, he says the program was

9

mismanaged.

The

He claims that the Russian had been able to find

10

the flaws in the plans.

11

as well, fix them.

12

Iran nuclear weapons technology.

13

changed.

14

Just after the

Iran might be able to spot these flaws

He was worried that the CIA may have given
That's when everything

On April 3, 2003, William Harlow, the CIA's director

15

of Public Affairs, was called by James Risen.

16

phone.

17

wanted comment.

18

to sell flawed fire set plans to the Iranians.

19

CIA cryptonym, a code name, for the human asset, the one that

20

we will be calling Merlin.

21

They talked by

Risen told Harlow he was working on a story, and he
The story involved a Russian engineer trying
He had a real

Harlow knew that that was very, very rare for someone

22

outside the agency to have that type of information.

Risen

23

said the plans were delivered to the Iranians at the IAEA

24

mission in Vienna in 2000, but Risen was not sure if the

25

operation was still ongoing.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 149 of 281 PageID# 4866
149
1

Risen made a number of follow-up calls to Harlow.

2

said the story was in near final form.

3

said; and he said the program had not been handled properly.

4

Iran had been told that the designs were flawed, and the

5

Iranians might be able to fix the flaws.

6

that the case officer had been to see the Senate committee.

7

Sound familiar?

He

He had documents, he

He also was aware

With the very same pitch, the same

8

spin that the defendant had put on the operation with SSCI, the

9

Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, Risen was now telling

10

the CIA, William Harlow, its director of Public Affairs.

11

Harlow did some research.

He alerted his superiors.

12

He had learned that there was such a program like the one Risen

13

described, but it was hardly flawed.

14

to Risen, it was ongoing.

15

More importantly, unknown

The next thing that happens, Harlow is headed to the

16

White House for a meeting with The New York Times.

17

George Tenet, the director of the CIA; and Condoleezza Rice,

18

the national security advisor for the President; The New York

19

Times editor, Jill Abramson; and Mr. Risen, Dr. Rice set out a

20

set of talking points prepared by Harlow and which she went

21

over with Ms. Abramson and Mr. Risen.

22

publish.

23

the U.S. efforts to stop the spread of nuclear weapons.

24
25

There with

She said lives were at stake.

She asked them not to
She said it would harm

At the meeting, Risen reiterated they had documents,
a letter, a letter written by the Russian asset to the Iranians

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 150 of 281 PageID# 4867
150
1

warning them of the flaws in the plans.

2

Director Tenet corrected Risen.

Russians told the

3

Iranians -- excuse me, the Russian told the Iranians that the

4

plans were incomplete, not that they were flawed.

5

The New York Times said they would get back in a week

6

or so.

7

House and the CIA that it would not publish the story.

8
9

A week later, The New York Times informed the White

It was sort of a case of winning the battle but
losing the war because Risen ended up publishing the story but

10

not through The New York Times.

He put his article into a

11

book, State of War, in January 2006; and what appears in

12

chapter 9 of State of War closely tracks what Risen told Harlow

13

in April of 2003.

14

The chapter had pretty much the same spin.

While it

15

reports the basic outline of the classified program accurately,

16

Risen claims that Merlin found the flaws in the plans at the

17

San Francisco meeting; and according to the book, Merlin was so

18

concerned that he was handing over nuclear secrets to the

19

Iranians that he tried to warn them of the flaws in the plans

20

by hastily drafting a letter to that effect while in Vienna.

21

The book quotes nearly verbatim from the draft of the

22

letter that the defendant copied into a CIA cable months before

23

the trip to Vienna.

24

officer of the defendant was also concerned about the way the

25

program was handled and concerned that the operation may have

That book also claims that the case

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 151 of 281 PageID# 4868
151
1

given away valuable nuclear secrets.

2

Now, the evidence that the defendant was Risen's

3

source will unfold in several ways.

4

litigation with the CIA.

5

Classified Program No. 1.

6

just when Risen is talking to Harlow about his story.

7

There is motive:

his

It began in 2000, just after he left
It continued through April 2003,

The basis of the defendant's claims is -- was that he

8

was discriminated against because of his race.

9

He was angry.

10

He was bitter.

He was seeking revenge.

For example, on January 7, 2003, he told a CIA

11

employee that he was disgusted with the CIA, and as a result,

12

he would come after them with everything at his disposal.

13

January 27, 2003, and then again on February 12 of

14

2003, offers to settle the litigation were rejected.

15

just said no.

16

Risen at his residence.

17

The CIA

Fifteen days later, the defendant called James

Shortly after that was the Senate meeting that I just

18

discussed, and key to that was that the only person to have

19

ever said that the Russian spotted the flaws in the plans, an

20

impossibility as explained before, the only person who ever

21

said that we were giving plans to the Iranians that may have

22

aided their nuclear weapons program was the defendant and James

23

Risen.

24
25

The defendant was also a source for Risen.

On

October 30, 2001, during litigation, the CIA rejected a

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 152 of 281 PageID# 4869
152
1

previous offer by the defendant, $200,000.

2

November 4, 2001, The New York Times publishes an article by

3

Risen discussing the destruction of the CIA's New York office

4

in the 9/11 attacks.

5

in which the defendant worked, was a classified fact.

6

time later, the defendant tells a colleague at the CIA that he

7

had confirmed the existence of the CIA's New York office to a

8

newspaper or magazine; she wasn't sure which.

9

Four days later,

The existence of that office, the office
A short

March 2, 2002, Risen publishes a story in The New

10

York Times about the defendant's discrimination lawsuit.

Risen

11

publicly confirmed that the defendant was his source, and he

12

quoted from the defendant extensively.

13

I lost a note, Your Honor.

If I may?

14

In addition to the litigation, the facts of the book,

15

the facts of chapter 9 will also reveal to you that the

16

defendant was a source for James Risen.

17

written from the perspective of a case officer.

18

officer who was the case officer between January of 1999

19

through the Vienna trip up until May of 2000, that case officer

20

was the defendant.

21

officer, only knows the information from that period.

22

only knows the information from that period.

23

First, the book is
The case

The perspective of the book, the case
Risen

The book discusses the case officer's involvement in

24

the operation, quotes the conversation between the case officer

25

and a senior, a senior case officer, Robert S.

The only

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 153 of 281 PageID# 4870
153
1

persons to have communicated together at the San Francisco

2

meeting were Robert S. and the, and the defendant.

3

The book quotes -- excuse me, the book describes

4

extensively the San Francisco meeting.

5

the other case officers, what happened at the meeting; but it

6

also has facts that aren't otherwise recorded in CIA documents

7

and cables.

8
9

It describes Merlin,

For example, the book explains that Merlin and the
case officer went on a wine trip in Sonoma County, California.

10

The only persons to know about that fact were Robert S., the

11

case officer, Merlin, and Mrs. Merlin.

12

As you go through the book, as you will, you will see

13

that each of the facts that are reiterated in the book by

14

Mr. Risen were facts known to Mr. Sterling.

15

known only to the case officers who were working on the

16

operation at that time and then found their way to Mr. Risen.

17

They were facts

But they're also facts discussing the operation that

18

are not otherwise known to case officers or to Mr. Robert S.

19

For example, the book quotes from the defendant's PAR, his

20

performance appraisal report.

21

operation.

22

defendant by his New York management.

23

and the other case officers have no access to that document.

24
25

That is not a document from the

That is a document that is reviewed with the
People like Robert S.

But what's further instructive is that document does
not on its face link the operation to the human asset at issue.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 154 of 281 PageID# 4871
154
1

Yet in the book, Mr. Risen quotes from that document and links

2

it to operation, Classified Program No. 1.

3

In addition to facts in the book that were known to

4

Mr. Sterling, the defendant, there are also facts not in the

5

book that were not known to the defendant, in other words,

6

facts that were known to other case officers, other people

7

working on the operation, the people within management that

8

they knew about the operation.

9

For example, the book speculates about whether the

10

operation continued beyond 2000.

11

it did.

12

operations that followed the Vienna operation, operations which

13

the defendant knew nothing about and, hence, Mr. Risen knew

14

nothing about.

15

You will hear testimony that

You will hear testimony that there were similar

You will also learn, for example, that Merlin never

16

did, in fact, hear back from the Iranians.

17

something that Risen speculates about because the defendant

18

knew nothing about that.

19

Again, that's

In addition to the facts of the book, you will also

20

see a pattern between Risen and the defendant extending from

21

2004 -- excuse me, extending from 2003 up through and including

22

the end of 2005, when the book is published.

23

shows a number of telephone calls, e-mails interspersed with

24

telephone calls in which they discuss the fact that Risen is

25

working on his book.

This pattern

For example, in early January, Risen

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 155 of 281 PageID# 4872
155
1

reached out to defendant via e-mail and says, "Can we get

2

together in early January?

3

Jim."

Thereafter, in 2004, you will see a steady stream of

4

e-mails and contacts between James Risen and the defendant.

5

February 9, 2004, again on April 24, 2004, he calls the

6

defendant, James Risen calls the defendant 14 times and then

7

sends an e-mail from his personal account to the defendant's

8

personal e-mail account.

9

This pattern of e-mail contact continues through May,

10

interstate telephone calls from Risen again to the defendant

11

and e-mails from Risen on his personal e-mail account to the

12

defendant's personal e-mail account.

13

"I'm sorry if I've failed you so far, but I really enjoy

14

talking to you and would like to continue."

15

On

One such e-mail says,

Again, this evidence will show that there's a

16

pattern, a pattern of communication between the defendant and

17

Risen extending from 2004 up through the publication of the

18

book in early January 2006, and that that pattern ends.

19

Finally, the government must also show you as part of

20

its burden that the disclosures made by the defendant to James

21

Risen, disclosures that ultimately made their way to the

22

public, were potentially damaging to national security.

23

will be witnesses, CIA officers with experience who will

24

testify that these, these disclosures were potentially damaging

25

in a number of ways.

There

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 156 of 281 PageID# 4873
156
1

First, the asset.

The disclosures put his life in

2

jeopardy, his life and the life of his family.

3

compromised the CIA's ability to use him in the future.

4

a very unique asset:

5

They don't come by those very often, but the disclosures in

6

State of War in 2006 caused the CIA to bring his use to a halt.

7

They
He was

a real Russian nuclear weapons expert.

They also compromised the methods used in the

8

operation.

They compromised the fact that now that, now that

9

this was in the book, the way the operation was conducted, the

10

use of the labs, the science behind the schematics, all those

11

methods were now compromised.

12

technology and those countries wishing to exploit nuclear

13

technology is not that big.

14

serious compromise for the agency.

15

Again, the arena of nuclear

This loss of intelligence was a

And finally, the CIA's ability to recruit assets, to

16

keep people cooperating once they begin cooperating with the

17

CIA, was damaged.

18

services, when people working with the CIA pick up a book and

19

they read about the compromises in this case, it's a loss of

20

intelligence.

21

can ever keep our secrets.

22

When assets, when foreign intelligence

It makes them pause.

It makes them wonder if we

My time is coming to an end.

It's a fairly complex

23

case.

The evidence will come in piece by piece.

You will hear

24

a number of case officers who only have a certain share of the

25

information, and that is part of the way the CIA

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 157 of 281 PageID# 4874
157
1

compartmentalizes its operations.

This was a limited access

2

operation.

3

allowed to have access to its documents.

4

they were out for good.

Only those who participated in the operation were
Once they were out,

5

So we have to put on case officer after case officer

6

after case officer to explain what they knew and what the time

7

frame was for their knowledge, and you will see at the end that

8

the only case officer, the only person who knew what is

9

published in that book in chapter 9 and who knew the details

10

that were in the book and what was not in the book, what was in

11

the cables, what was not in the cables, is Jeffrey Sterling.

12

Thank you very much.

13

THE COURT:

All right, Mr. MacMahon?

14

OPENING STATEMENT

15

BY MR. MAC MAHON:

16
17

May it please the Court.

Thank you, Your Honor.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, counsel.

18

My name, ladies and gentlemen, is Edward MacMahon;

19

and I'm one of the attorneys here representing Jeffrey Sterling

20

in this case.

21

a plea of not guilty to these charges.

22

As the judge told you, Mr. Sterling has entered

With me is Barry Pollack, who will do a lot of the

23

talking as well, and Mia Haessly.

24

us.

25

speak.

So you'll hear from all of

There's no rhyme or reason as to who's going to get up and

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 158 of 281 PageID# 4875
158
1

What I -- I want you to remember, you've actually

2

been picked to do an interesting case.

3

lawyers, we have to look at jurors and argue about breach of

4

contracts; and other cases are car wrecks, some of the ones we

5

heard about in voir dire; but this is a very interesting case;

6

and one of the reasons is because the subject matter we're

7

dealing with is very important; but the person this is the most

8

important to is Jeffrey Sterling and his wife, who is in the

9

courtroom with him.

10

Lots of time as trial

Mr. Sterling is an extraordinary man.

He's not a

11

traitor.

12

betrayed his country or done anything of the sort, and you will

13

hear no evidence of that at all.

14

He's not even -- he's a wonderful man who has never

Who he is?

He's the first person in his family to

15

graduate from college is who he is.

16

went to work for the CIA because he was a patriot, because

17

that's what he wanted to do; and he's a man who then went to

18

law school after he worked there -- while he was at the CIA and

19

thereafter; and at the time he was arrested, which was in 2010

20

on these charges, he was working as a health care fraud

21

investigator, working with United States attorneys

22

investigating health care fraud; and since that time, he's been

23

unemployed and unemployable.

24
25

He's a man who in 1993

And what we need is for you folks to listen very
closely to this case and listen for evidence.

I didn't really

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 159 of 281 PageID# 4876
159
1

hear any evidence in that opening, a promise of any actual

2

evidence in this case other than a lot of suspicion; but we're

3

going to ask you to find him not guilty and let Mr. Sterling

4

get on with his life with him and his wife in Missouri, where

5

they live.

6

And, ladies and gentlemen, I won't ask you to do that

7

out of sympathy for Mr. Sterling.

8

acquit somebody in a criminal case.

9

That's no reason at all to

What I want you to do is to listen very closely for

10

any direct evidence that the government has at all that

11

Mr. Sterling leaked any information, any classified information

12

about Merlin or Classified Program No. 1, whatever it is.

13

didn't see an e-mail that came up.

14

hear a phone call.

15

that's because it doesn't exist.

16

You

You're not going to see or

You're not going to hear anything, and

Mr. Trump is a fine lawyer.

If he had an e-mail with

17

details of these programs or a phone call, you would have heard

18

it; and you're not going to hear it in this case.

19

really have is a cloud that needs to be lifted off of

20

Mr. Sterling.

21

So what we

This process has been going on for 13 years.

This is

22

how long this has been going on.

As I say, Mr. Sterling was

23

gone -- has been gone from the CIA for almost 15 years.

24

could have had jurors in this case -- you're going to hear

25

evidence come in from cables that were written by the CIA when

We

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 160 of 281 PageID# 4877
160
1

we could have had jurors who weren't even born.

2

stuff happened during the early Clinton administration.

3

Some of this

And the reason I want to emphasize this fact for you

4

is that as jurors, you get to decide who's telling the truth

5

and who really remembers what happened in a conversation in

6

2000 or 1999; and think for yourself the detail with which you

7

could remember incidents that took place 15 and 20 years ago.

8
9

And there's one other thing I want you to keep in
mind as you hear this case.

You can hear in Mr. Trump's voice

10

a disdain for Mr. Risen's book.

11

miss, okay?

12

say:

The CIA is angry, and you're going to hear people

That's false.

13

It's not, it's not hard to

That's a lie.

That never happened.

And this is not a -- a criminal case is not a place

14

where the CIA goes to get its reputation back, okay?

15

case to decide whether Mr. Sterling disclosed information to

16

Mr. Risen.

17

when they accused the CIA of a botched operation, that was a

18

terrible thing to say.

19

This is a

You'll keep hearing witness after witness say that

And in that regard, what I want you to also remember,

20

because this is important as to how this book ends up being

21

written, is that a lot of these events take place in the, in

22

the build-up to the, to the Iraq war; and we all know that was

23

a time when the same CIA at this exact same time was telling us

24

all that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq; and we

25

all know, sadly, how true that claim was.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 161 of 281 PageID# 4878
161
1

And so in the middle of this literal food fight

2

between Mr. Risen and the CIA sits Jeffrey Sterling; and he

3

needs you to perform a jury service, which is to decide his

4

case and form a check against the government that's been making

5

these claims against him for years.

6

And I will tell you now, and you can hold me to this,

7

that the evidence will be that Mr. Sterling never spoke about

8

his experiences in this program or about Merlin to a single

9

person who wasn't entitled to know it, not a single person.

I

10

didn't hear -- Mr., Mr. Trump told you that he spoke to Risen.

11

Did you hear where, when, or anything about what happened?

12

That's because there isn't any such evidence of it whatsoever.

13
14
15

No.

The government will produce no direct evidence
whatsoever of a single communication.
It won't produce any evidence that anything happened

16

here in the Eastern District of Virginia.

17

to tell you at the end of the case that you have to find that

18

something, the disclosure was made here in the Eastern District

19

of Virginia.

20
21
22

Nothing happened here.

The judge is going

Even in the opening

statement, we didn't hear that that happened.
And so let's back up a little bit.

So Mr. Trump

23

tells you that Mr. Sterling is angry and mad at the CIA, and he

24

files a discrimination case.

25

Well, he did.

You're going to see a lot of the

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 162 of 281 PageID# 4879
162
1

pleadings, these stacks of documents.

A lot of them are

2

documents from this case.

3

Mr. Sterling exercising his right to file a lawsuit, and he did

4

it.

5

dismissed, yes, by the CIA, claiming national security, that

6

Mr. Sterling's discrimination case could not be heard because

7

it would infringe upon national security.

And what is that?

That's

He followed the law in every way until the case was

8

And I say that -- we're going to get a screen here;

9

and we're going to hear people's names and everything; and I

10

beseech you -- the judge has asked you if you won't consider

11

this as evidence of all the importance and the security.

12

Nobody wants a witness to be disclosed, but you need to -- just

13

because we can't call these witnesses by their names and you're

14

looking at redacted documents, it's just part of this process.

15

It's going to prove nothing to you.

16

But when you see it, it's going to look strange, and

17

again, I ask you to remember this is the process that we're in.

18

It's not -- it doesn't mean anything else than that as to what

19

we're looking at.

20

Mr. Trump is right, Mr. Sterling went to the House of

21

Representatives and complained.

22

do that.

23

legally, and he complained.

24
25

He has the absolute right to

He went to the House of Representatives legally,

What happened next?
interested in his case.

He went -- reporters got

It wasn't just Mr. Risen who wrote a

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 163 of 281 PageID# 4880
163
1

story about a black CIA officer feeling discriminated against.

2

Mr. Sterling's story was in People magazine.

3

television.

4

with the CIA.

He was on

He wasn't hiding the fact that he was in a lawsuit

5

And no, they didn't pay him.

The case got dismissed.

6

What happened next, Mr. Sterling tries to write a

7

book, and how do you do that when you work at the CIA?

You

8

have to have your book cleared by a lawful -- a legal process.

9

He submitted his book; it didn't get cleared; and he

10

ended up in litigation again with the CIA, in trial litigation,

11

legal litigation.

12

So you're seeing the pattern that Mr. Trump is

13

talking about is one also of legal actions taken by Jeffrey

14

Sterling.

15

And there's also no question that Mr. Sterling in

16

2003 went to the Senate Select Intelligence Committee and

17

voiced his concerns about this program.

18

authorized to do that.

19

not being a traitor, to go tell the Congress that you think

20

something is wrong with a program at the CIA.

21

He was legally

There's no question about that.

That's

But all these actions do leave him as an outcast at

22

the CIA.

There isn't any question about that.

Sterling is out

23

of the club at this point.

24

whatever -- he's a pain in their side.

25

to call him, he's that; and everybody, almost everybody who

He's, he's a whistleblower.

He's

He's whatever you want

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 164 of 281 PageID# 4881
164
1

testifies against him in this case is going to be someone who's

2

still inside of this tight club.

3

So there's no disputing that Mr. Risen, we don't

4

dispute that after Mr. Sterling went to the Senate Select

5

Intelligence Committee, Mr. Risen learned of the lawful

6

disclosures that Mr. Sterling had made at the SSCI.

7

Do you know how long the phone call was that

8

Mr. Sterling made that Mr. Trump told you about in the opening

9

statement?

Three seconds.

It's a three-second call.

That's

10

all you'll see.

11

So -- and a lot of them you won't see, and I'll get to that in

12

a second.

13

You'll see a bunch of phone records here.

But so the key issue for you to decide in one respect

14

is what happened?

15

SSCI, the Senate Select Intelligence Committee, and to

16

Mr. Risen?

17

question you get to decide; and I'll suggest to you here later

18

on, I'll tell you exactly how, a scenario where it could have

19

happened.

20

How did this information get out of the

Was it Mr. Sterling or someone else?

But what do you not see?

That's the

You don't see a written

21

communication to Mr. Risen from Mr. Sterling about the program

22

at all, no evidence they even met in person.

23

that?

24

him documents or anything?

25

Did you hear

Did you hear in 2003 that they met in person and he gave
No, no evidence of that.

Do you have any evidence that Mr. Sterling FedExed or

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 165 of 281 PageID# 4882
165
1

mailed something to Mr. Risen?

2

e-mails.

3

interested in his discrimination case which goes on, so they're

4

still talking about something that they've written a public

5

story about, and there's nothing.

6

no recorded calls.

7

No.

Risen is still interested.

They have a few traces of
Mr. Sterling certainly is

There's nothing else at all,

And so what you have is a suspicion, a suspicion that

8

it was Mr. Sterling backed up by anger and the fact that the

9

CIA despises Mr. Sterling now to go on for 13 years and do

10

this.

11

But the evidence, which the government didn't tell

12

you about again, is that Mr. Sterling -- excuse me, Mr. Risen

13

will tell you by transcript that he had a wide range of unnamed

14

sources for his reporting.

15

tell you.

16

asked by the government.

17
18

That's what Mr. Risen is going to

He had a wide range of sources.

That was a question

Folks, that's as good as it gets from Mr. Risen's
mouth.

19

And we didn't hear any, any testimony proffered at

20

all by the government from Mr. Risen, the evil person who

21

printed this book, not a thing.

22

this void, okay?

23

they want you to do is speculate about what Mr. Risen heard or

24

what he did, without ever putting on any evidence of that at

25

all.

And the government can't fill

There's no way they can fill this; but all

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 166 of 281 PageID# 4883
166
1

And they know from Mr. Risen's other exhibits,

2

there's a book proposal that Mr. Risen wrote in which he says

3

that he talked to multiple CIA officers about this program.

4

We don't need to put this up, Mr. Francisco.

5

I'll read this to you.

You'll get this at the end of

6

the case.

7

Mr. Risen writes:

8

come to the author to discuss the case because they now feel

9

enormous guilt for a program that they believe may have aided

10

It's Government Exhibit 128, and in it, it says that
"CIA officers involved in the operation have

Iran's nuclear weapons program."

11

You catch all the plurals, ladies and gentlemen?

But

12

who do they -- it must have all -- everybody is lying because

13

it's Sterling giving everything to Risen, and Risen writes

14

these things before there's ever even a criminal investigation

15

at all.

16

you'll get that the book wouldn't be possible without the

17

cooperation of many current and former officials in the

18

Intelligence Community and other parts of the government.

19

of them were willing to discuss sensitive matters only on a

20

condition of anonymity.

He writes in the, in the preface of his book that

21

Many

That's Mr. Risen's words.

So what do we have to rebut that?

Circumstantial

22

evidence.

23

an invitation to speculate; and that's not the burden that the

24

government carries here.

25

Sterling, it must have been Sterling; but it's just

So again, I say to you, listen closely for direct

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 167 of 281 PageID# 4884
167
1

evidence of Mr. Sterling's supposed acts.

2

No such evidence exists.

3

They don't exist.

And when you get the book, the speculation won't

4

even -- isn't even played out by reading the book.

5

beginning of chapter 9 details an event which took place in

6

2004 which led to the death of Iranian agents.

7

The

Folks, Sterling wasn't at the CIA, okay?

8

there.

9

that's in it.

10

They can't pin this one on him.

He wasn't

That's the first thing

It's not him.

And then later in the book, on page 207 -- again,

11

you're going to -- we're going to go through this.

12

to get mind-numbing, I'm sure, to you soon enough, but when

13

we're actually looking at the book, on page 207, there's

14

writing about an NSA program, of the NSA supposedly being

15

involved in tracking an Iranian official to see that the plans

16

are delivered.

17

says, but the CIA's people are going to tell you that's

18

completely false.

19

Iranian official picking up the plans in Iran and bringing --

20

picking them up in Vienna and bringing them to Iran.

21

completely false.

22

It's going

I'm not doing a good job of telling you what it

That never happened.

So what is Mr. Risen?

Nobody ever tracked an

Is he a fableist?

23

Mr. Sterling the source for his fables?

24

on?

25

Apparently, it's completely untrue.

It's

Is

What is, what is going

There's no way that Sterling could have told him that.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 168 of 281 PageID# 4885
168
1

You'll look more into the book.

Mr. Merlin, who

2

you'll hear testify by videotape, he, he's quoted -- his

3

language attributed to this Russian is in quotes in this book,

4

okay?

5

to read it out loud, and you'll hear him speak in his Russian

6

accent exactly the words that are in this book.

7
8

And I asked him at the deposition

And then the next question is, "Can you tell me how
it is that Mr. Risen has you quoted in this book?"

9
10

That's on page 207.

And he says, "No, I can't explain that at all.

No

possible explanation for that."

11

"Are those words that you used?"

12

"Yes, those are words that I used.

It's a correct

13

quote, but I never talked to him, and I don't know anybody who

14

did."

15

There's another one of those quotes as well.

The --

16

Merlin tells in Risen's book in quotes, he talks

17

about delivering the weapons -- the plans for a nuclear weapon

18

and wrapping them in a newspaper and putting them on top of a

19

mailbox in Austria.

20

talking about.

21

There's the high-quality operation we're

But what's more important than that?

There's no

22

report that says he wrapped them in a newspaper.

He doesn't

23

remember telling Mr. Sterling that he wrapped the plans for a

24

nuclear weapon in a newspaper, but what Mr. Risen has in the

25

book is accurate, so where did it come from?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 169 of 281 PageID# 4886
169
1
2

It's not my job to prove to you where it came from,
but it didn't come from Jeffrey Sterling.

3

And there's all kinds of information in this book

4

that you'll see came from sources other than Mr. Sterling.

5

couldn't have come from Mr. Sterling, and it will take apart

6

the mosaic, it will take the pieces out of the jigsaw puzzle

7

that Mr. Trump wants you to put together for them.

8
9

It

Mr. S. -- Bob, I guess we call him -- is a very
interesting witness in this case.

He knew everything that was

10

in this book, okay, everything that's in chapter 9.

11

there the whole time.

12

so when Mr. Trump tells you that, that this didn't happen,

13

nobody else -- Bob knew everything, okay?

14

and the CIA just takes his word that he didn't ever speak to

15

Mr. Risen.

16

He was

There isn't any debate about that, and

Bob knew everything,

We're going to get phone records in this case out the

17

gazoo, and Mr. Sterling gets the Friends and Family Plan from

18

the government.

19

if he called somebody, they went and got his phone records.

20

he stayed at somebody's house, they got his.

21

don't even bother.

22

Mr. Risen's phone records.

23

Everybody he talked to in the last ten years,

They don't even bother.

If

But for Bob, they
They don't have

So how do you prove that Bob -- you're going to come

24

in in a circumstantial case and say:

I'm going to prove to you

25

that Bob S. and Jim Risen never talked to each other, but I

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 170 of 281 PageID# 4887
170
1

never got either one of their phone records, but it must have

2

been Sterling.

3

There's the pattern of what we have here.

There are some e-mails, very short traces of e-mails

4

between Sterling and Risen, but they don't add up to anything

5

at all.

6

at all, none, not a single thing.

7

There's no evidence at all of Mr. S.'s e-mail traffic

And guess what?

The CIA can't tell you what

8

Mr. Sterling was doing.

You would think the CIA would be able

9

to track the e-mails or the printing or the comings and goings

10

of a case officer; and they say:

11

can't do that for you, right?

12

No, sorry, we can't.

It's not there.

We

We don't know.

And this is important because when you read this

13

book, you will see that Mr. Risen obviously had access to a lot

14

of documents, but when did Sterling get them?

15

of the program in 2000, in May of 2000, and there's no sense or

16

even suggestion of a leak between that time and 2003.

17

Sterling was out

So what did he do, go home with a backpack full of

18

documents from the CIA that he printed up, and nobody can tell

19

you when it happened, where it happened?

20

witness who's going to say Jeffrey Sterling printed up a

21

letter?

22

Did you hear a

Bob, by the way, the letter Mr. Trump told you, Bob

23

was working on that letter with Merlin as well.

It wasn't just

24

Mr. Sterling.

25

he was the last person with a copy of the letter, the

And it was Merlin, by the way, who will tell you

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 171 of 281 PageID# 4888
171
1

approximate letter that ends up in the book.

2

So there are other things about firing sets and, for

3

example, Merlin only refers to the plans as blueprints.

4

Mr. Risen refers to them as blueprints.

5

that Mr. Sterling drafted do you see those words.

6

In not a single cable

But again, Mr. S., Merlin, they'll all deny being the

7

source.

8

nobody is going to admit to having anything to do with this.

9

They've all seen what's happened to Mr. Sterling, and

So there's lots of possibilities to how this

10

happened, and I'm going to leave you with one other one at this

11

time.

12

calls Mr. Trump just told you about, the April -- oh, excuse

13

me, the February 2003 call was 50 seconds, I'm sorry.

14

calls, there were six apparent calls in 2003 that add up to

15

three minutes, three-and-a-half minutes over a three-week time

16

period.

17

information in Risen's book came in over those as well.

18

Before I do that, though, the phone records, these phone

The next

I guess the government wants you to think that all the

So there is another scenario, I'll suggest to you;

19

and again, the defendant has no burden of proof in this case;

20

but listen, listen to something else that may have happened

21

that the evidence in this case will support.

22

Mr. Sterling goes up to the Senate Select

23

Intelligence Committee and tells, tells his story, as he was

24

legally entitled to do.

25

And one of the people that he tells it to is someone named

No one's going to tell you otherwise.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 172 of 281 PageID# 4889
172
1

Vicki Divoll, and my distinguished colleague here already gave

2

you her name.

3

very partisan Democrat who works, been working up on the Hill

4

for a while, very experienced.

5

What do we know about Vicki Divoll?

She's a

And what happens within about a month after, after

6

this happens?

7

Select Intelligence Committee, and what do you think she was

8

fired for?

9

dealing with the CIA that happened in front of that committee

10

Ms. Divoll is fired from her job at the Senate

She was fired because of a story about something

was published by Mr. Risen.

11

That's exactly what happened.

I'll show you the story.

It's called "Broad Domestic

12

Role Asked for CIA and the Pentagon."

13

the CIA in 2003 to get permission to obtain records in the

14

United States without a subpoena.

15

It details an effort by

The leak is plainly attributed to Mrs. Divoll.

16

You'll get to hear her testify and hear her answer how it is

17

that the story got out, because what she did was tell somebody

18

else -- her story is:

19

else, and eventually, somehow Mr. Risen got ahold of it.

20

Does that sound like something that happened?

21

I told somebody else, who told somebody
Okay?

It did happen.

And now we'll see what she has to say about it.

22

She's going to deny ever talking to Mr. Risen, either; but

23

there's no question because -- that she got fired for a story

24

that makes it to Jim Risen.

25

that?

And what could have happened after

Risen finds out about the story, and what story does he

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 173 of 281 PageID# 4890
173
1

find out about?

2

the consistent story.

3

Intelligence Committee?

4

The one that Sterling told her, right?

That's

Who else told the Senate Select
He did.

And then if you read Risen's -- what we have here is

5

evidence, Mr. Risen says he reached out to many officials and

6

other intelligence officers and other people and reached for

7

more information.

8

the government can think of to tell you that he may have

9

called?

10

Why is it that it's only Mr. Sterling that

As I say, they don't even ask for Bob's phone records

to see whether it was him or anybody else.

11

And, of course, in this time now was the time the

12

book is being written, there's reasons for these officials to

13

be worried.

14

finding any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq; and what do

15

they need, another story about a Russian scientist dropping off

16

plans for a nuclear weapon wrapped in a newspaper?

17

don't need that.

18

The CIA is getting all kinds of bad press for not

No, they

So it's equally plausible, ladies and gentlemen, that

19

Mr. Risen then went and talked to other people.

20

who.

21

came from, but if you look at the documents, you'll see he got

22

a lot of documents from a lot of people, including documents

23

that they admit Mr. Sterling never had in the first place.

24

whoever tried to help him may not be the last person ever

25

burned by a reporter, but they didn't get the story that they

I don't have to prove it.

I don't know

I don't know where else it

And

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 174 of 281 PageID# 4891
174
1

wanted.

So you'll consider that evidence as you hear the rest

2

of these witnesses testify.

3

Mr. Sterling is also charged with mail fraud somehow

4

for selling Mr. Risen's book here in Virginia, stealing

5

property and putting it in a book.

6

which there's no basis.

7

Virginia is probably the only thing that, the evidence you'll

8

ever hear of anything that happened; and you can consider that

9

as to why that was raised.

10

It's a silly charge for

In fact, the, the sale of the book in

He's charged with obstruction of justice apparently

11

because an e-mail was deleted on his computer at some point in

12

time, and you'll see the government has no evidence that that

13

was done in any way to hinder or delay or any kind of an

14

investigation.

15

And again, I want to thank you-all for your service,

16

valuable service as jurors in this case.

It's going to be a

17

slog looking through all these details; but I hope I gave you a

18

good outline of the defendant's case; and again, we will ask

19

you to give Mr. Sterling his life back at the end of this case.

20

Thank you very much.

21

THE COURT:

All right, ladies and gentlemen, we're

22

going to take about a five- -- only a five-minute break, so

23

I'll ask you to stay in the jury room.

24

courtroom for the special witnesses who are going to be

25

beginning.

We have to set up the

Five-minute recess.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 175 of 281 PageID# 4892
Stephen B. - Direct
1

175

(Recess from 2:56 p.m., until 3:08 p.m.)

2

(Defendant and Jury present.)

3

THE COURT:

4

MR. OLSHAN:

5

All right, call your first witness.
Thank you, Your Honor.

The government

calls Stephen B.

6

THE COURT:

7

STEPHEN B., GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, AFFIRMED

8

MR. OLSHAN:

9

THE COURT:

10

All right, Mr. B.

May I proceed, Your Honor?
Yes, sir.
DIRECT EXAMINATION

11

BY MR. OLSHAN:

12

Q.

Good afternoon, sir.

13

A.

Good afternoon.

14

Q.

If you could, please state your first name, spell your

15

first name, and state your last initial.

16

A.

Stephen B., S-t-e-p-h-e-n.

17

Q.

Mr. B., have you ever been employed by the Central

18

Intelligence Agency, or the CIA?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

Is the CIA part of the United States government?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

If you could explain in your own words very briefly, what

23

does, what does the CIA do?

24

A.

25

counterintelligence information and provides that information

The CIA collects foreign intelligence and foreign

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 176 of 281 PageID# 4893
Stephen B. - Direct

176

1

to U.S. policymakers.

2

Q.

Were you employed by the CIA during the 1990s?

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

Let me focus your attention on the years 1994 and 1995.

5

Were you employed by the CIA during that time?

6

A.

Yes, I was.

7

Q.

What was your position with the CIA during that period?

8

A.

I was a case officer.

9

Q.

Can you explain to the jury what a, what a case officer

10

does?

11

A.

12

also known, is someone who spots, assesses, recruits, and

13

handles foreign human assets.

14

Q.

15

recruiting?

16

A.

17

is sorting through people, leads, to find the right people with

18

access to information that we're looking for.

19

Q.

20

you're looking for, would you have a role recruiting those

21

individuals as a case officer?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

While you were a case officer, did you hold a security

24

clearance?

25

A.

Sure.

A case officer, or an operations officer, as it's

And when you say "spots," is that the same thing as

Well, recruiting is different than spotting.

Spotting is,

When you find the right people to access the information

I did.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 177 of 281 PageID# 4894
Stephen B. - Direct

177

1

Q.

And at what level?

2

A.

Top Secret/SCI.

3

Q.

And do you know what "SCI" stands for?

4

A.

Special Compartmented Information.

5

Q.

Is there a level below Top Secret?

6

A.

Yes, Secret.

7

Q.

Mr. B., does everyone -- during your time at the CIA, does

8

everyone have or did everybody have, who had a TS or a Top

9

Secret security clearance, have access to all of the Top Secret

10

information at the CIA?

11

A.

No.

12

Q.

Was it broken down as to who could access specific types

13

of Top Secret information?

14

A.

15

everything that everyone else is working on.

16

Q.

Are you familiar with the concept of a need to know?

17

A.

Yes, I am.

18

Q.

And is that something that's a principle used or employed

19

in the CIA?

20

A.

Absolutely.

21

Q.

Can you tell the jury what the need-to-know principle is?

22

A.

So you have a clearance, a Secret, Top Secret, and then

23

you also have need to know based on the work that you're doing.

24

So just because you have a Top Secret clearance doesn't mean

25

that you're going to be able to see details of other cases or

Yes.

It's compartmented, so not everyone can see

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 178 of 281 PageID# 4895
Stephen B. - Direct

178

1

other operations going on.

Only if you have the need to know

2

also and the clearance can you -- will you might be allowed to

3

have access to that information.

4

Q.

5

training concerning the handling of classified information?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

Was it important at the CIA to properly handle classified

8

information?

9

A.

Very much so.

10

Q.

You mentioned the term "human asset" when you were

11

describing what a case officer does.

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

Can you tell the jury what a human asset is in the CIA

14

lingo?

15

A.

16

interest to the agency, to the CIA.

17

asset.

18

for the agency and share that information with us.

19

Q.

20

as Merlin?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

Was Merlin this person's true name, or was it something

23

different?

24

A.

It was something different.

25

Q.

Approximately when did you meet Merlin?

During your time as a CIA employee, did you receive

Do you recall that?

It's a source, a person who has access to information of
That would be a human

And then a person who we recruit, who agrees to work

Are you familiar with a human asset whom I will refer to

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 179 of 281 PageID# 4896
Stephen B. - Direct

179

1

A.

In approximately 1994.

2

Q.

And do you recall what nationality Merlin was?

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

Did he come from a specific professional background?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Arzamas-16.

7

Q.

Is that a facility in Russia?

8

A.

It is.

9

Q.

What was the purpose of that facility?

10

A.

My understanding was it's, part of the responsibilities of

11

that facility was to assemble and disassemble tactical and

12

nuclear weapons.

13

Q.

14

weapons?

15

A.

He worked in a facility that had that responsibility, yes.

16

Q.

Assembly?

17

A.

Correct.

18

Q.

And at some point, did Mr. Merlin immigrate to the United

19

States?

20

A.

He did.

21

Q.

With his family?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

Was Mr. Merlin a defector to the United States?

24

A.

No, not a defector.

25

Q.

Did you have any involvement in recruiting Merlin to work

He was Russian.

He was an engineer that worked for a facility called

Did Merlin have a role in the assembly, for example, of

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 180 of 281 PageID# 4897
Stephen B. - Direct

180

1

for the CIA?

2

A.

I did.

3

Q.

Were you the first person to approach and attempt to

4

recruit Mr. Merlin on behalf of the CIA?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

Was he interested when you first approached him?

7

A.

No, he was not.

8

that he didn't want to speak with anyone from the Intelligence

9

Community, we felt -- my assessment was because in Russia, any

He expressed concern through his wife

10

dealings with the KGB would have been much different than the

11

way we would treat assets here in the U.S. and as part of the

12

Central Intelligence Agency.

13

Q.

And just for the jury's benefit, what is the KGB briefly?

14

A.

Russian security service, intel service at the time.

15

Q.

You say intel.

16

A.

Intelligence service, yes.

17

Q.

You testified that at first, Mr. Merlin was not interested

18

in working with the CIA; is that correct?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

At some point, did he become interested?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

And how were you able to persuade him to work with the

23

CIA?

24

A.

25

and identified as a lead by CIA headquarters to our office, and

That's intelligence service?

Initially, we met with his wife, who was also an émigré

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 181 of 281 PageID# 4898
Stephen B. - Direct

181

1

we went out and interviewed her a few times.

She was the one

2

who actually said, "The person that you should talk to is my

3

husband, because he, he did more interesting things at Arzamas

4

than I did."

5

Q.

6

you in the CIA?

7

A.

Yes, I believe so.

8

Q.

Did you provide any other incentive to Mr. Merlin to work

9

with the CIA at the time?

And so was she instrumental in persuading him to work with

10

A.

Yes.

We offered him payment for his time.

11

Q.

Is it -- was that standard practice when recruiting human

12

assets?

13

A.

Absolutely.

14

Q.

After Mr. Merlin agreed to work with the CIA, what

15

happened next?

16

to, to work with you?

17

A.

18

Department of Energy and CIA analysts who helped in the

19

technical debriefings of Mr. Merlin.

20

Q.

21

purpose of those debriefings?

22

A.

23

happening within Arzamas-16.

24

Q.

25

that Mr. Merlin possessed; is that accurate?

What did you, what did you do once he agreed

We set up a series of debriefings with members of the

So you mentioned the word "debriefings."

What's the

To collect intelligence, to collect details on what was

So it was to gather historical information or intelligence

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 182 of 281 PageID# 4899
Stephen B. - Direct

182

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

Did you attend these debriefings?

3

A.

I did.

4

Q.

Did Mr. Merlin speak good English?

5

A.

No.

6

translator to help with those debriefings.

7

Q.

8

went by when dealing with Mr. Merlin?

9

A.

I believe it was Ivan.

10

Q.

You testified your first name is Stephen.

11

know you by the name Stephen or something else?

12

A.

No, he knew me by another name, which was my agency alias.

13

Q.

What was the first name of that agency alias?

14

A.

Scott.

15

Q.

When you would meet with Mr. Merlin for these debriefings,

16

would you meet at a CIA facility or somewhere else?

17

A.

Somewhere else.

18

Q.

Why not meet at a CIA facility with Mr. Merlin?

19

A.

Because we always incorporate pieces of operational

20

security.

21

what other people might be trying to find out about our

22

operations.

23

location, that might not be -- it just doesn't work well with

24

the operational security, what we try to build into our, our

25

cases.

We, we had to use a, a translator, an agency

Do you recall what name, first name the agency translator

Did Mr. Merlin

We're always concerned about counterintelligence,

So if we were to bring him to a known agency

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 183 of 281 PageID# 4900
Stephen B. - Direct

183

1

Q.

Was there a risk involved if you were to bring Mr. Merlin

2

to a specific CIA, known CIA location?

3

A.

4

might be watching a known CIA facility, the Russians, for

5

example.

6

Q.

7

Mr. Merlin?

8

A.

No, sir.

9

Q.

Was it important or unimportant for the Russians to know

There could be a risk because someone who we don't want

Did you tell the Russians that you were debriefing

10

whether Mr. Merlin was working with the CIA?

11

A.

12

he was not talking to the CIA.

13

Q.

14

perspective, to ensure that the Russians not know that he was

15

working --

Well, my presumption would be that they would prefer that

How important was it from your perspective, from the CIA's

16

MR. POLLACK:

Objection.

17

THE WITNESS:

A very high priority.

18

THE COURT:

19

MR. POLLACK:

20

speak for himself.

Wait, there's an objection.
I'm going to object.

Mr. B. has to

He can't speak for the agency.

21

THE COURT:

22

MR. OLSHAN:

I'll sustain the objection.
That's fine.

23

Q.

From your personal perspective, how important was it for

24

the Russians not to know that Mr. Merlin was meeting with the

25

CIA?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 184 of 281 PageID# 4901
Stephen B. - Direct

184

1

A.

I would judge it as very important.

2

Q.

Does it pose any risk from an intelligence standpoint if,

3

if the Russians were to find out that you had been debriefing

4

Mr. Merlin?

5

A.

6

something we would want in our operation.

7

Q.

Could it affect the intelligence value of his debriefings?

8

A.

It certainly could.

9

Q.

You testified that there were other people present during

My assessment would be that yes, that would not be

10

these debriefings in addition to you and the translator, Ivan.

11

Is that correct?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

Do you have a technical background, Mr. B.?

14

A.

I do not.

15

Q.

Were there individuals involved in the debriefings who,

16

who did?

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

And were any of those individuals from National

19

Laboratories in the United States?

20

A.

They were.

21

Q.

And those individuals, did they have specific technical

22

backgrounds?

23

A.

Yes.

24

Q.

Was the information obtained from Mr. Merlin during these

25

technical debriefings, was it evaluated by the CIA?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 185 of 281 PageID# 4902
Stephen B. - Direct

185

1

A.

It was.

2

Q.

And were you ever made aware of the assessment of the

3

value of the information provided by Mr. Merlin?

4

A.

Yes, I was.

5

Q.

What was reported to you about the value of his

6

intelligence?

7
8

MR. POLLACK:

I'm going to object.

Hearsay and

relevance.

9

THE COURT:

Well, is it being offered for the truth

10

of its contents, or what is the purpose for asking this

11

question?

12

MR. OLSHAN:

It's not being offered for the truth.

13

It's what was reported to this individual, but it also goes to

14

the closely held nature of this particular asset, his

15

importance to the CIA.

16

THE COURT:

I'll sustain -- I'll overrule the

17

objection then.

18

BY MR. OLSHAN:

19

Q.

20

evaluation of the intelligence that Mr. Merlin provided to the

21

U.S. government?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

And what was the evaluation of that information?

24

A.

Some of the reporting was rated as outstanding.

25

Q.

And was that on a scale?

My question, Mr. B., was were you ever made aware of the

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 186 of 281 PageID# 4903
Stephen B. - Direct

186

1

A.

It is on a scale of which outstanding, an outstanding

2

rating is the highest rating that can be given to a piece of

3

intelligence.

4

Q.

5

that.

During the time that you worked with Merlin -- strike

6

Approximately how long did you work with Merlin?

7

A.

Approximately one year.

8

Q.

So that would be from sometime in 1994 to sometime in

9

1995?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

During the time that you worked with Mr. Merlin, would you

12

characterize him as an easy asset to handle or a hard asset to

13

handle?

14

A.

Fairly easy.

15

Q.

Is that fairly or very?

16

A.

I said fairly, but he was not a problem to handle.

17

Q.

Can you describe briefly the information that was gathered

18

related to this human asset Merlin?

19

access restrictions as far as who could review it?

20

A.

21

in, in close channels, and so yes, to answer your question.

22

Q.

23

specific program or file for Merlin access any documents

24

related to Mr. Merlin?

25

A.

Yes.

Was it subject to any

So the information was compartmented.

It was held

Could individuals at the CIA who were not read into this

No.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 187 of 281 PageID# 4904
Stephen B. - Direct

187

1

Q.

Did you maintain a file in your particular office?

2

A.

We had, we had what we call a soft file in the office,

3

yes.

4

Q.

How was that soft file maintained?

5

A.

In the safe in our, in our office.

6

Q.

Was there also an electronic file?

7

A.

There is.

8

Q.

And were there restrictions as to who could access that --

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

-- electronic file?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

And similarly, was that restricted to people who had been

13

granted access to information related to Mr. Merlin?

14

A.

Yes, people who had the need to know about this case.

15

Q.

You testified that in approximately 1995, you stopped

16

being the case officer for Mr. Merlin.

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

Did you transfer Mr. Merlin to a different case officer?

19

A.

I did.

20

Q.

And what was the first name and last initial of that case

21

officer?

22

A.

That case officer was Laurie D.

23

Q.

Was it routine for one case officer to hand -- to transfer

24

an asset to another one at some period of time?

25

A.

Yes.

Is that right?

Typically, when you are leaving that office to go to

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 188 of 281 PageID# 4905
Stephen B. - Direct

188

1

a new office, you will hand over assets to another officer.

2

Q.

Is that what happened with you?

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

You went to a different office?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

Now, Ms. D., Ms. Laurie D., was she in your chain of

7

command when you transferred Merlin to her as the new case

8

officer?

9

A.

She was.

10

Q.

Where was she in your chain of command?

11

A.

She was my immediate supervisor.

12

Q.

After you stopped being Merlin's case officer, did you

13

retain any access to either that soft file you mentioned or the

14

electronic file related to Merlin?

15

A.

No, sir.

16

Q.

Could you have accessed that if you wanted to?

17

A.

No.

18

Q.

During your time as Merlin's case officer, was he ever

19

used for anything other than historical debriefings?

20

A.

No.

21

Q.

Was he used operationally?

22

A.

No.

23

Q.

Do you have any personal knowledge as to whether he was

24

ever used in any CIA operations?

25

A.

I do not.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 189 of 281 PageID# 4906
Stephen B. - Direct

189

1

Q.

Did you ever hear anything else about Mr. Merlin from

2

Laurie D., for example?

3

A.

4

going between, you know -- she would say, she said -- go ahead.

Just in casual conversation on, you know, how things were

5

MR. POLLACK:

6

THE COURT:

7

MR. POLLACK:

Objection.
Wait, wait.
Objection, Your Honor.

This is hearsay

8

and at times I understand that Mr. B. is not even involved

9

anymore.

10

THE COURT:

Well, I think the question is relevant to

11

this case because it addresses the degree to which there is

12

ongoing contact about a human asset after a person leaves the

13

program.

14

the truth of the contents or what actually was said, that's not

15

terribly important.

To that extent, I'm permitting it, but in terms of

16

MR. OLSHAN:

17

MR. POLLACK:

Okay.
My understanding is he's about to relay

18

a conversation he had with Laurie D., not a conversation he had

19

with Merlin.

20

THE COURT:

21

MR. POLLACK:

22

MR. OLSHAN:

23

THE COURT:

24

BY MR. OLSHAN:

25

Q.

No, no, I understand that.
Okay.
I'll rephrase the question.
Rephrase the question.

Mr. B., did you have any discussions with Laurie D. about

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 190 of 281 PageID# 4907
Stephen B. - Direct

190

1

any classified aspects of Mr. Merlin --

2

A.

No.

3

Q.

-- by the CIA?

4

A.

No.

5

Q.

So any remarks were casual, generic?

6

describe it?

7

A.

8

office, just saying, you know, "How are things going?"

Yes.

9

How would you

It was just casual conversation after I had left the

"Doing well."

10

Those sorts of things, but nothing, nothing on a

11

classified level, no.

12

Q.

13

career, Mr. B., how would you in your personal experience rank

14

the intelligence value of Mr. Merlin compared to other assets

15

that you dealt with?

16

THE COURT:

17

Let me ask you a question:

Relative to your entire CIA

He can testify to that.

Objection

overruled.

18

THE WITNESS:

Based on my career, the intelligence

19

that was produced by Merlin, my judgment was that it was one of

20

the most prolific in terms of intelligence that I had handled.

21

BY MR. OLSHAN:

22

Q.

23

Sterling?

24

A.

I do not.

25

Q.

Have you ever seen this man before?

Do you know the defendant in this case, Mr. B., Jeffrey

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 191 of 281 PageID# 4908
Stephen B. - Direct

191

1

A.

Not to my knowledge, no.

2

Q.

Do you know an individual named James Risen?

3

A.

I do not.

4

Q.

Have you ever read the book State of War by James Risen?

5

A.

I did read the book.

6

Q.

Did you -- and when, when did that happen?

7

A.

After Special Agent Hunt interviewed me on this case and

8

asked me if I had read the book, I said no.

9

book, some of the pages under one of the chapters was

10

She showed me the

highlighted, asked me to read it.

11

After that interview, I went out and purchased the

12

book out of curiosity and read the book.

13

Q.

Approximately when was that?

14

A.

It had to be in 2006.

15

Q.

Subsequent to purchasing the book, did you ever meet

16

Mr. Risen?

17

A.

No.

18

Q.

Have you ever spoken to him about your dealings with

19

Merlin?

20

A.

No.

21

Q.

Did you ever discuss Merlin or his role with the CIA with

22

anyone whom you believed did not have access or the need to

23

know about Merlin?

24

A.

25

No.
MR. OLSHAN:

One moment, Your Honor?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 192 of 281 PageID# 4909
Stephen B. - Cross
1

THE COURT:

2

MR. OLSHAN:

3

192
Yes, sir.
I'll pass the witness at this time, Your

Honor.

4

THE COURT:

5

MR. POLLACK:

6

All right.

Mr. Pollack?

Thank you, Your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION

7

BY MR. POLLACK:

8

Q.

9

one of the attorneys that represents Mr. Sterling.

Good afternoon, Mr. B.

10

My name is Barry Pollack, and I'm

As I understand it, Mr. B., your role with respect to

11

Merlin was first in recruiting him, correct?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

And then secondly in debriefing him because he had

14

information about the Russian nuclear program that might be of

15

value to the United States, correct?

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

And at that time during your involvement from '94 to '95,

18

Merlin was not an operational asset, correct?

19

A.

That is correct.

20

Q.

You were merely debriefing him to get information from him

21

from his prior career, correct?

22

A.

That is correct.

23

Q.

And so when you said that he was a very easy asset to

24

handle, that was in the context of he was a very easy person to

25

debrief, correct?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 193 of 281 PageID# 4910
Stephen B. - Cross

193

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

And, in fact, you got voluminous information from him,

3

correct?

4

A.

That is correct.

5

Q.

And just to be clear, the time that you were interacting

6

with Merlin, Mr. Sterling was not part of that relationship at

7

all, correct?

8

A.

That's correct.

9

Q.

And when you first wanted to -- well, you first heard

10

about Merlin and his potential value from Merlin's wife,

11

correct?

12

A.

13

identified both Merlin and his wife as new émigrés to the

14

United States, both of interest, potential interest to the

15

Intelligence Community.

16

about it, but I also heard from Mrs. Merlin that her husband

17

would be someone that we should talk to.

18

Q.

And so that made you more interested in Mr. Merlin, right?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

And you said that the CIA recruits assets or treats assets

21

a little bit differently than the KGB did in, in Soviet Union?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

In fact, the way that you went about trying to recruit

24

Merlin is you asked the wife, Mrs. Merlin, to stress for

25

Mr. Merlin just how much money he could make working for the

Well, the first was a lead from CIA headquarters that

So that was the first I had heard

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 194 of 281 PageID# 4911
Stephen B. - Cross

194

1

CIA, correct?

2

A.

That was part of the recruitment pitch, yes.

3

Q.

And, in fact, when you met Mr. Merlin after he had

4

initially refused to talk to government officials, you actually

5

showed Mr. Merlin a suitcase full of $50,000 worth of cash to

6

try to entice him; is that correct?

7

A.

I did.

8

Q.

And ultimately, the money was enticing to Mr. Merlin, was

9

it not?

10

A.

I would think so, yes.

11

Q.

And, in fact, ultimately, he agreed to cooperate with the

12

United States government and work for them, correct?

13

A.

He did.

14

Q.

But before doing that, before accepting the deal, he

15

actually tried to negotiate more money, did he not?

16

A.

17

had asked him to work for us for at least two years in exchange

18

for a set amount of money.

19

like to work for one year," and so I told him that that was not

20

the deal that was on the table.

21

Q.

22

you wanted him to work for two years for $300,000, correct?

23

A.

24

basically the deal.

25

No, he tried to negotiate less money for less time.

Okay.

We

He came back to me and said, "I'd

So he wanted to work for one year for $150,000, and

It was -- I don't recall the exact numbers, but that was

MR. POLLACK:

Your Honor, may I hand the witness a

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 195 of 281 PageID# 4912
Stephen B. - Cross
1

195

document to see if it refreshes his recollection?

2

THE COURT:

3

MR. POLLACK:

4

THE COURT:

You hand it to Mr. Wood.
Thank you.
That's all right.

Let's just move this

5

along.

It's all right.

6

BY MR. POLLACK:

7

Q.

8

recollection as to whether the amount that you were going to

9

pay to Mr. Merlin for his two years of debriefing was $300,000?

The question, Mr. B., is does that refresh your

10

A.

It doesn't refresh my recollection because it was 20 years

11

ago, but I presume if that's what I said back then, those

12

numbers are correct.

13

Q.

And after about a year or so --

14

MR. OLSHAN:

15

THE COURT:

16

MR. OLSHAN:

Your Honor?
Is there an objection?
I apologize, I may have missed it.

17

it been noted for the record what it is that the witness is

18

looking at?

19

THE COURT:

20

MR. POLLACK:

Has

No, it was not.
Your Honor, for the record, I was

21

showing the witness an FBI 302 form from an interview of Mr. B.

22

that was conducted by the FBI.

23

THE COURT:

24

And you'll hear the terminology "302."

25

It's dated April 7, 2006.

All right, that's what it is.
That's just

what the FBI calls its reports of investigation, and I think

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 196 of 281 PageID# 4913
Stephen B. - Cross
1

196

you'll hear a lot of references to FBI 302s.

2

We can return that document to counsel.

3

Go ahead, Mr. Pollack.

4

MR. POLLACK:

Thank you, Your Honor.

5

Q.

And then after approximately a year, you ended your

6

relationship with Merlin, correct?

7

A.

Yes.

8

Q.

And you turned that relationship over to another case

9

officer by the name of Laurie D.?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

And before you, you did so, you turned over your paper

12

file pertaining to Merlin to Laurie D., correct?

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

And at that point, your access to the FBI's relationship

15

with Merlin was cut off?

16

that point, you no longer had the ability to access documents

17

pertaining to the CIA's relationship with Merlin?

18

A.

CIA, correct.

19

Q.

And that, that is typical that once you're no longer

20

involved, you no longer have a need to know, and so therefore,

21

you can't access even electronically the documentation

22

pertaining to a particular project, correct?

23

A.

Specifically at

Yes.

24
25

Let me rephrase it:

MR. POLLACK:

Thank you.

I don't have anything

further.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 197 of 281 PageID# 4914
197
1

THE WITNESS:

Thank you.

2

THE COURT:

3

MR. OLSHAN:

4

THE COURT:

5

witness in there ready for us.

All right, any questions?
No redirect.

All right, there should be another

6

Thank you, Mr. B.

7

THE WITNESS:

8

THE COURT:

9

MR. OLSHAN:

10

Thank you.
He'll escort you out.
Your Honor, is the witness fully

THE COURT:

Wait one second.

Is anybody planning to

call this witness again in the course of the trial?

13

MR. OLSHAN:

14

MR. POLLACK:

15

THE COURT:

16

You go with Mr. Wood.

released at this point?

11
12

Any redirect?

The government is not.
No, Your Honor.
All right, then you are released, and

that means you may now leave the courthouse.

17

THE WITNESS:

18

THE COURT:

19

THE WITNESS:

20

Thank you.
Thank you for your testimony.
Thank you.
(Witness excused.)

21

THE COURT:

And just so we can keep the case moving

22

efficiently, are the next two or three witnesses about the same

23

length?

24
25

MR. OLSHAN:

The next one is, and then the third one

will get a little longer, and after that, it will get

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 198 of 281 PageID# 4915
Laurie D. - Direct
1

198

potentially significantly longer.

2

THE COURT:

All right, but I want to make sure we

3

have enough witnesses here today that we can keep this going.

4

All right, we'll have the affirmation administered.

5

LAURIE D., GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, AFFIRMED

6
7

THE COURT:

Tomorrow please have those on sturdier

paper.

8

MR. OLSHAN:

9

THE COURT:

10

We will for tomorrow, Your Honor.
Okay.
DIRECT EXAMINATION

11

BY MR. OLSHAN:

12

Q.

Good afternoon, ma'am.

13

A.

Good afternoon.

14

Q.

If you could just lean in a little bit?

15

A.

Sure.

16

Q.

Ma'am, if you would state and spell your first name and

17

your last initial?

18

A.

19

D.

Okay.

20
21

THE COURT:

24
25

My last initial is

Ms. D., you're going to have to keep your

voice up.

22
23

My first name is L-a-u-r-i-e.

THE WITNESS:

Okay.

I'll talk louder.

I can

project.
THE COURT:

That's perfect.

BY MR. OLSHAN:

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 199 of 281 PageID# 4916
Laurie D. - Direct

199

1

Q.

Ma'am, let me direct your attention to the 1990s.

Were

2

you employed by the Central Intelligence Agency during that

3

time?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

And at some point during your employment with the CIA, did

6

you meet an individual whom I will call Merlin?

7

A.

Yes.

8

Q.

Was that in the course of your work at the CIA?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

And can you recall approximately when did you meet Merlin?

11

A.

In the 1995-1996 time frame.

12

Q.

Ma'am, are you familiar with the term "case officer"?

13

A.

Yes, I am.

14

Q.

Were you Merlin's case officer?

15

A.

For a part of the time, yes.

16

Q.

Was there a period of time when you knew Merlin where you

17

were not his case officer?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

Can you describe for the jury what your role was with

20

respect to Merlin before you became his case officer?

21

A.

22

just met, used to work for me, so I saw the information that he

23

collected from Merlin and helped edit and release the

24

information that, share it back to Washington.

25

Q.

I was the manager of an office, and so Steve B., whom you

Were you Mr. B.'s supervisor?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 200 of 281 PageID# 4917
Laurie D. - Direct

200

1

A.

Yes, I was.

2

Q.

In that role, were you permitted access to classified

3

information related to Mr. Merlin?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

During the time that you were at the CIA, were you trained

6

in the handling or the proper handling of classified

7

information?

8

A.

Yes.

9

Q.

Was that an important aspect of your job at the CIA?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

Did you have a security clearance at the time?

12

A.

Yes, I did.

13

Q.

And what was that security clearance?

14

A.

Top Secret/HCS -- or SCI.

15

Q.

Approximately how long were you supervising Mr. B., his

16

handling of Merlin, before you became Merlin's case officer?

17

A.

Approximately 18 months to two years.

18

Q.

Is that the total amount of time that you dealt with

19

Merlin, or that's the amount of time that --

20

A.

21

dates, but --

22

Q.

23

supervisor to Mr. B. was to edit correspondence or

24

communications; is that correct?

25

A.

That I supervised Steve B.

I don't remember the exact

You testified a minute ago that one of your roles as a

Yes.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 201 of 281 PageID# 4918
Laurie D. - Direct

201

1

Q.

What types of communications, if you could describe those?

2

A.

Normally reporting information that he might have gotten

3

from Mr. Merlin into intelligence reports.

4

Q.

Where would those reports go?

5

A.

To Washington.

6

Q.

When you say Washington, where --

7

A.

CIA headquarters.

8

Q.

Was it standard practice for the supervisor to have a role

9

in editing the work product, so to speak, before it went back

10

to Washington?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

At some point, you testified you became the case officer

13

for Merlin?

14

A.

Yes, I did.

15

Q.

And if you could estimate, approximately how long were you

16

in that role?

17

A.

Probably about 18 months or so.

18

Q.

Were you involved in any of the debriefings of Merlin?

19

A.

Yes, I was.

20

Q.

Were you physically present for those, or did you just

21

edit the reports after the debriefings?

22

A.

23

debriefings.

24

Q.

25

headquarters, did you ever receive a response as to the, the

When I was the case officer, I was at the briefings --

Ms. D., the reports that were provided back to

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 202 of 281 PageID# 4919
Laurie D. - Direct

202

1

intelligence value of what Mr. Merlin was providing to the CIA?

2

A.

3

you would get feedback on what it is that you provided that

4

would help you either tell you whether or not it's worth your

5

while to continue pursuing a certain line of, you know,

6

debriefing or what impact that might have had or then follow-up

7

questions.

8

Q.

9

usefulness of somebody's intelligence?

Yes.

Traditionally, the CIA, if someone writes a report,

So how important is it to have an accurate idea of the

10

A.

It's very important.

11

Q.

And why is that?

12

A.

One, it helps you as the case officer to be able to know,

13

to how you, how you should be debriefing someone and the

14

direction of the case, where you need to go next in terms of

15

collecting information.

16

Q.

17

the reviews that came back for Mr. Merlin's intelligence?

18

A.

19

received by the policymakers, U.S. policymakers and the

20

analysts in headquarters, in CIA headquarters.

21

Q.

22

the debriefings of Mr. Merlin?

23

A.

Yes, I did.

24

Q.

During the time when you were Mr. Merlin's case officer,

25

did you take any specific precautions to ensure that his role

And to the extent you recall, what was the, the quality of

It had, it had very high impact.

It had very well

Ms. D., did you ever receive any award in connection with

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 203 of 281 PageID# 4920
Laurie D. - Direct

203

1

working with the CIA remained hidden?

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

And just generally, what types of precautions would you

4

take?

5

A.

6

in terms of, like, doing, making sure that I varied my route, I

7

mean, that type -- I'm not quite sure what you mean.

8

Q.

9

things up, in dealing with Merlin, for example, would you meet

Do you mean in terms of writing things up, or do you mean

I'll rephrase that.

So rather than the way that you wrote

10

him at a known CIA facility?

11

A.

12

hotels.

13

Q.

14

facility?

15

A.

16

into a secure facility like that.

17

the event it's a -- it's not -- for his security, it's not good

18

to go into one of those facilities in the event that somebody

19

ever finds out where it is.

20

Q.

So --

21

A.

So we went to hotels instead.

22

Q.

And that was so that people who might be paying attention

23

wouldn't know he was working with the CIA?

24

A.

Exactly.

25

Q.

Do you recall what country Mr. Merlin was from?

No, no.

We would, we would get hotels and would meet in

Why would you do it at a hotel as opposed to a secure CIA

Basically, because the, Mr. Merlin should have never gone
It's just too risky that in

Yeah, it's for his own security.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 204 of 281 PageID# 4921
Laurie D. - Direct

204

1

A.

Yes.

He was -- yes.

2

Q.

Was that Russia?

3

A.

Yeah, Russia.

4

Q.

Do you recall whether you had any specific concerns about

5

the Russians finding out that Mr. Merlin was working with the

6

CIA?

7

A.

Other than his family members?

8

Q.

I'll rephrase the question.

9

A.

Okay.

10

Q.

Did you have any concerns about the Russian government

11

finding out about Merlin working with the CIA?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

Describe those concerns.

14

A.

As in any of these cases when you're dealing with someone

15

from another country, you don't want their country to find out

16

that they're cooperating with the U.S. government because it

17

would jeopardize their safety and security and potentially

18

their family's as well back in their home country or even in

19

the U.S.

20

Q.

21

were the case officer for Merlin, debriefings were still going

22

on; is that correct?

23

A.

Yes.

24

Q.

At some point during your time as his case officer, was

25

there any discussion of using Merlin in a more operational

You testified that for some portion of the time when you

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 205 of 281 PageID# 4922
Laurie D. - Direct

205

1

sense?

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

And were you involved in preliminary discussions about

4

that?

5

A.

Yes, I was.

6

Q.

What type of operation -- not what type of operation.

7

What were the basic contours of this planned operation?

8

A.

9

were going to ask Mr. Merlin if he'd be willing to get in

We were going to -- I'm trying not to use lingo here.

We

10

contact with another country.

11

Q.

Was that Iran?

12

A.

Iran, yes.

13

Q.

For what purpose?

14

A.

To learn more about their nuclear program.

15

Q.

Do you remember whether there was any discussion while you

16

were the case officer for Merlin as to what Mr. Merlin would

17

offer or communicate to the Iranians about?

18

A.

19

scientist who basically wanted to offer his services to the

20

Iranian government and help them with their program.

21

Q.

Help them with their nuclear program?

22

A.

Um-hum.

23

Q.

And in connection with this planned operation, was there

24

an idea as to what he would offer, what type of intelligence?

25

A.

Yeah.

He would pose as a disgruntled Russian nuclear

He would offer his expertise and also some documents.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 206 of 281 PageID# 4923
Laurie D. - Direct

206

1

Q.

Were those plans or schematics?

2

A.

Yeah -- yes.

3

Q.

Can you recall what the plans or schematics were for?

4

A.

Not specifically, no.

5

Q.

Do you recall whether it had to do with a specific nuclear

6

component?

7

A.

No, I don't remember.

8

Q.

Do you recall whether there was any discussion while you

9

were Mr. Merlin's case officer about whether these schematics

10

or plans would have any flaws in them?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

And what type of flaws?

13

A.

I don't remember the exact details, and I'm not a

14

technical person, but there was something in those plans that

15

would not enable the Iranians actually to be able to make

16

whatever that piece was work.

17

Q.

Were these flaws apparent, or were they to be hidden?

18

A.

To be hidden.

19

Q.

Now, was Merlin involved in the plan to use, in the idea

20

to embed flaws --

21

A.

No.

22

Q.

-- or was he kept out of that?

23

A.

He was kept out of that.

24

Q.

And can you describe for the jury why Merlin was kept in

25

the dark about whether there would be flaws in these plans?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 207 of 281 PageID# 4924
Laurie D. - Direct

207

1

A.

It was for his own security.

2

about that, he could have plausible deniability.

3

ever asked, he wouldn't have to lie because he really didn't

4

know.

5

there was no -- there would be no chance of him mistakenly

6

providing information that he shouldn't have because he

7

wouldn't, he wouldn't know.

If he were

So it was for his, for his own security so that he --

8
9

The less that he would know

And for the operation itself, the security of the
operation itself.

10

Q.

For the security of the operation, it was important that

11

he not know --

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

-- some of the details?

14

A.

Um-hum.

15

Q.

Why is that?

16

A.

Same thing.

17

that mistakenly could be given to the Iranians and to help keep

18

it secure and keep Merlin secure.

19

Q.

20

to be told all the details of the operations that they would be

21

used in?

22

A.

Generally speaking, yes.

23

Q.

You testified that this idea was in the planning stage

24

when you were the case officer for Mr. Merlin?

25

A.

Just to minimize the amount of information

Was it standard operating procedure for human assets not

Yes.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 208 of 281 PageID# 4925
Laurie D. - Direct
All right.

208

1

Q.

At some point, did you transition out of that

2

role and hand off Merlin to another case officer?

3

A.

Yes, I did.

4

Q.

And do you recall the first name and last initial of the

5

next case officer?

6

A.

Zach W.

7

Q.

Did Merlin know you by the name Laurie D. or by something

8

else?

9

A.

He knew my first name.

10

Q.

Laurie?

11

A.

Um-hum.

12

Q.

Ms. D., after your involvement with Merlin ended, did you

13

have any further access to the classified case associated with

14

Mr. Merlin?

15

A.

No.

16

Q.

If you'd wanted to, could you have gone and pulled out any

17

documents related to Mr. Merlin?

18

A.

No.

19

Q.

Is that -- when I say that, I'm asking is that true of

20

physical documents?

21

A.

22

didn't have access to it.

23

Q.

24

access to either electronic or physical?

25

A.

It's true physical or, or things on the computer.

I

So after you were no longer the case officer, you had no

No, I did not.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 209 of 281 PageID# 4926
Laurie D. - Direct

209

1

Q.

Relative to your entire CIA career, Ms. D., how would you

2

rank the intelligence value of Merlin compared to other assets

3

you dealt with?

4

A.

5

one that I've ever worked on, and I've worked on a lot of

6

interesting things, but this is the most important.

7

Q.

Ms. D., do you know Jeffrey Sterling?

8

A.

No, I don't.

9

Q.

The defendant in this case?

10

A.

No, I don't.

11

Q.

Before entering the courtroom today, have you ever seen

12

him before?

13

A.

No, I have not.

14

Q.

Do you know a reporter named James Risen?

15

A.

No, I don't.

16

Q.

Have you ever discussed your dealings with Merlin with

17

James Risen?

18

A.

No, I did not.

19

Q.

Have you ever read a book called State of War?

20

A.

I only saw the one piece of a chapter related to Merlin

21

when I was interviewed with the FBI.

22

read the book.

23

Q.

24

book and that chapter, anything to do --

25

A.

In my entire career, this is probably the most important

Otherwise, I have not

So did you ever discuss with Mr. Risen, the author of that

No.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 210 of 281 PageID# 4927
Laurie D. - Cross

210

1

Q.

-- with your time dealing with Merlin?

2

A.

No.

3

Q.

Have you ever had discussions with anyone about Merlin

4

where that person was not authorized to know about Merlin?

5

A.

No.

6

MR. OLSHAN:

7

THE COURT:

One moment, Your Honor?
Yes, sir.

8

BY MR. OLSHAN:

9

Q.

Ms. D., are you still employed by the CIA?

10

A.

Yes, I am.

11

Q.

And do you still work on intelligence matters?

12

A.

Yes, I do.

13

MR. OLSHAN:

14

THE COURT:

15

MR. POLLACK:

16

That's all, Your Honor.
All right.

Mr. Pollack?

Thank you, Your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION

17

BY MR. POLLACK:

18

Q.

19

beginning of your tenure as the case officer for Merlin, the

20

relationship with Merlin was still one of simply debriefing

21

him?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

And then at some point during your tenure, there was an

24

operation that it was decided Merlin would be well suited to

25

participate in, correct?

Ms. D., if I understand it correctly, originally at the

He was not yet an operational asset?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 211 of 281 PageID# 4928
Laurie D. - Cross

211

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

And there was an individual by the name of Robert or Bob

3

whose last name begins with "S" who was the person at

4

headquarters overseeing that operation, correct?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

And, and for purposes of our conversation, we're going to

7

call that operation Classified Program No. 1, okay?

8

A.

Okay.

9
10

MR. POLLACK:

Exhibit No. 6 put up on the screen for the witness?

11
12

THE COURT:

Now, do we have any issues with this

exhibit?

13

MR. OLSHAN:

14

Honor, at this point?

15
16

And if I can have Exhibit, Government

THE COURT:

This is just for the witness, Your

No, it's going to go up on the screen

and --

17

MR. POLLACK:

Well, I was going to lay the foundation

18

to admit it, but if you have no objection to its admission, we

19

could just show it.

20

THE COURT:

21

All right, I assume there's no objection to this

22

exhibit.

23

objection.

24
25

Hold on a second.

Just wait a second.

It's a government exhibit, so I assume there's no

MR. OLSHAN:

There's no objection, Your Honor.

There

was just the issue that came up this morning about it.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 212 of 281 PageID# 4929
Laurie D. - Cross
1
2

THE COURT:

I understand that.

We'll take care of

that.

3

MR. OLSHAN:

4

THE COURT:

5

212

All right.
All right, it may be shown to the jury.

We have the room set up appropriately.

6

And, ladies and gentlemen, if that light is a glare

7

and it makes it difficult for you to see what's on your

8

screens, let us know, and we'll close the blinds.

9

the blinds closed at this point?

10

No?

(Jurors shaking heads.)

11
12

Anyone need

THE COURT:

All right, go ahead, Mr. Pollack.

And

Government Exhibit 6 is in, all right?

13

MR. POLLACK:

Thank you, Your Honor.

14

(Government's Exhibit No. 6 was received in

15

evidence.)

16

BY MR. POLLACK:

17

Q.

And, Ms. D., you have a paper copy of it in front of you?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

Of Government Exhibit 6?

20

A.

Yes, I do.

21

Q.

Go ahead and take a moment to review it.

22

describe for me generally, what is this that we are looking at?

23

A.

24

coming up to where we were meeting with Mr. Merlin.

25

Can you just

This is an operational cable which is saying about Mr. S.

THE COURT:

I'm sorry, you're going to need to talk

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 213 of 281 PageID# 4930
Laurie D. - Cross
1

213

to --

2

THE WITNESS:

I'm sorry, okay.

My apologies.

This

3

is an operational cable that's indicating that Mr. S. is coming

4

up to travel to meet with me and with Mr. Merlin to talk about

5

the possibility of working on this operational idea,

6

Classified --

7

BY MR. POLLACK:

8

Q.

Classified Program No. 1?

9

A.

Classified Program 1.

10

Q.

Okay.

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

And this was a, colloquially, it's called a cable?

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

And it was fairly routine, was it not, that cables would

15

be created to document what happened in the course of an

16

operation, correct?

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

If something happens, it gets put into a cable, correct?

19

A.

Yes, yes.

20

Q.

And then the cables then become the official record of the

21

operation, correct?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

And someone who is, quote, read into the program or into

24

the cabinet has the ability to access these cables, correct?

25

A.

And so this is an official CIA document?

We document everything.

Yes.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 214 of 281 PageID# 4931
Laurie D. - Cross
Okay.

214

1

Q.

And this particular cable, if you'd look to the

2

second page, who's the author of this cable?

3

A.

I think it's -- it looks like it's Mr. S., the originator.

4

Q.

Okay.

5

meet with you and to meet with Merlin, correct?

6

A.

I guess so, yes.

7

Q.

And it describes the, the general terms of what the

8

operation is going to be, what Classified Program No. 1 is,

9

correct?

So Mr. S. wrote this cable to document his trip to

That's what it says here.

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

Similar to, as you described on the stand, that it would

12

be an effort to get flawed designs to a foreign country,

13

correct?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

And if you'd look at the second page, about the middle of

16

that paragraph, I don't know if we can zoom in on it at all, it

17

says, "Note that the whole operational concept here is

18

deception," correct?

19

A.

20

this on the second page?

21
22

I'm looking for it.

THE COURT:

Hold on a second.

Where do you see

Ms. D., if you'd turn around and look at

the screen?

23

THE WITNESS:

24

THE COURT:

25

THE WITNESS:

Oh, right here.
Yeah.
Okay.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 215 of 281 PageID# 4932
Laurie D. - Cross
1

THE COURT:

2

THE WITNESS:

215
That will make it easier for you.
Yeah, okay.

Yes.

3

BY MR. POLLACK:

4

Q.

And that's -- those are Mr. S.'s words, correct?

5

A.

I'm -- yes, but I'm assuming he didn't do this by himself.

6

I'm sure there were people back in Washington he was working

7

with on this.

8

Q.

But he was the one overseeing this program?

9

A.

As far as I could tell from the field, from where I was.

10

Q.

In fact, this program was largely his concept, correct?

11

A.

I don't know if it was his concept.

12

headquarters' concept.

13

Q.

14

deception, correct?

15

A.

Well, according to this cable.

16

Q.

And, in fact, it was Mr. S., was it not, who had the idea

17

to use Merlin in this operation, correct?

18

A.

19

asking.

20

Q.

21

Classified Program No. 1, that we would try to get flawed

22

nuclear designs to a foreign power, correct?

23

A.

Yes.

24

Q.

And then the CIA needed somebody to actually pull that

25

off, to play the role of somebody who could get these plans to

It was CIA

And it's his description of the concept that it's one of

I, I honestly -- I guess I don't understand what you're

Sure.

There, there was a concept for this operation, this

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 216 of 281 PageID# 4933
Laurie D. - Cross

216

1

the foreign power, correct?

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

And you were the case officer for the particular asset

4

Merlin?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

And Mr. S. believed that Merlin would be a good vehicle to

7

use in Operation Classified Program No. 1?

8

A.

9

Mr. Merlin was that.

He was probably one of several people who probably thought
I don't -- wouldn't necessarily say that

10

Mr. S. is the only person who ever thought of it.

I mean, I

11

guess, you know, there's a lot of people back in headquarters.

12

It's not usually something done by one person.

13

Q.

14

dangled before the foreign power, the Iranians, correct?

15

A.

Yes.

16

Q.

And what does it mean to dangle somebody?

17

A.

I'm trying not to go into lingo.

18

Q.

In general terms.

19

A.

Basically, you would be putting someone in front of

20

someone who was unwitting that they had another agenda.

21

this instance with Mr. Merlin, we wanted to place him,

22

highlight him or have himself highlight himself to the Iranian

23

government ostensibly to help them, but in reality, he was

24

helping the U.S. government.

25

Q.

And the idea was for someone, in this case Merlin, to be

In

And this was a different role for Merlin than the role he

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 217 of 281 PageID# 4934
Laurie D. - Cross

217

1

had had up until that point, where he was simply being

2

debriefed, correct?

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

But Mr. Merlin agreed to play this role, correct?

5

A.

Yes, he did.

6
7

MR. POLLACK:
Government Exhibit 5?

8
9

If we can go ahead and put up

THE COURT:

I assume there's no objection from the

United States?

10

MR. OLSHAN:

No objection.

11

THE COURT:

12

(Government's Exhibit No. 5 was received in

All right, 5 is in.

13

evidence.)

14

BY MR. POLLACK:

15

Q.

16

cable; is that correct?

17

A.

Yes, it is.

18

Q.

And can you tell who -- and this one -- I probably should

19

have noted this -- Government Exhibit 6 was dated May of '97.

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

This one is dated January of '97, correct?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

And can you tell, Government Exhibit 5, the cable from

24

January of '97, who the author of that cable is?

25

A.

And Government Exhibit 5 again is another CIA operational

It does not say here.

The ID number is not there.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 218 of 281 PageID# 4935
Laurie D. - Cross

218

1

Q.

But it's a cable to which you would have had access?

2

A.

More than likely, yeah.

3

Q.

And it's a cable to which Mr. S. would have had access?

4

A.

His office that he worked in would have been the one to

5

probably see this cable.

6

Q.

7

and that's Merlin?

8

A.

Um-hum.

9

Q.

"M's operational motivation for this activity is almost

And if you look at the fourth line on page 2, it says "M,"

10

purely financial, and his desire to continue earning income

11

from the CIA is something that Merlin was very frank and honest

12

about during his meetings with C/O and CPD officers."

13

Now, "C/O" stands for case officer?

14

A.

Yes, it does.

15

Q.

And, and just to be complete, "CPD" stands for

16

Counterproliferation Division?

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

And was Merlin very frank and honest in his discussions

19

with you that his motivation to participate in this operation

20

was almost purely financial?

21

A.

22

detail of that conversation, but presuming that I'm the one who

23

wrote this, I don't know that -- I would assume I'm probably

24

the person who wrote this, but, but yeah.

25

Q.

Based on this cable.

I don't remember every specific

And with respect to the actual operational planning,

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 219 of 281 PageID# 4936
Laurie D. - Redirect

219

1

the -- with respect to the actual operational planning, it's

2

true, is it not, that Mr. S. did nearly everything and that you

3

had little involvement in that planning?

4

A.

What do you mean?

5

Q.

With respect to the details of how this operation was

6

going to play itself out, is it fair to say that Mr. S. had a

7

much larger role in coming up with that plan than you did?

8

A.

9

was not.

I would think so because he was back in headquarters and I

10

Q.

11

of 1997?

12

A.

I was handling the asset.

And then your tenure in handling the asset ended in July

Yes.

13

MR. POLLACK:

I don't have anything further, Ms. D.

15

THE WITNESS:

Okay.

16

THE COURT:

17

MR. OLSHAN:

14

Thank you.

18

Thank you.

All right, any redirect?
One second, Your Honor.

Thank you.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

19

BY MR. OLSHAN:

20

Q.

21

reflected that Mr. Merlin was candid and honest about his

22

desire for financial payment; is that correct?

23

A.

Yes.

24

Q.

And in your dealings with him, did he tend to fulfill his

25

side of the bargain in return for the payment that the CIA

Ms. D., one of the cables that Mr. Pollack showed you

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 220 of 281 PageID# 4937
Zach W. - Direct
1

provided?

2

A.

220

Very much so, yes.

3

MR. OLSHAN:

4

THE COURT:

5

MR. POLLACK:

6

THE COURT:

7

No further questions.
Any recross?
No, Your Honor, thank you.
Is anybody going to call this witness

again?

8

MR. OLSHAN:

No, Your Honor.

9

MR. POLLACK:

No, thank you.

10
11

THE COURT:
testimony.

12

All right.

You're free to leave.

Ms. D., thank you for your

THE WITNESS:

13

If you'd go with Mr. Wood?

Thank you.
(Witness excused.)

14

THE COURT:

We'll bring the next witness in.

15

MR. TRUMP:

Mr. Zach W.

16

Your Honor, this is the first witness that we would

17

probably use these notebooks for to go through about four or

18

five cables.

19

THE COURT:

20

Everybody come up for a second.

21
22

Approach the bench for one second.

(Sealed Bench Conference A not transcribed in this
volume.)

23

ZACH W., GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, AFFIRMED

24

DIRECT EXAMINATION

25

BY MR. TRUMP:

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 221 of 281 PageID# 4938
Zach W. - Direct

221

1

Q.

Would you please state your full name and your last

2

initial.

3

A.

Zach W.

4

Q.

And we're spelling Zach Z-a-c-h?

5

A.

Z-a-c-h.

6

Q.

Mr. W., have you previously been employed by the Central

7

Intelligence Agency?

8

A.

Yes, I have.

9

Q.

And when did you begin working for the CIA?

10

A.

I began work for the CIA in May of 1983.

11

Q.

And when did you end your official employment with the

12

CIA?

13

A.

I retired in October of 2012.

14

Q.

Do you maintain a relationship with the agency as a

15

contractor?

16

A.

17

part-time capacity for a couple of different offices in the

18

CIA.

19

Q.

20

what was your first position with the --

21

A.

22

in a position, I think the title of it at the time was called

23

information control clerk.

24

from all around the world on the midnight shift in an office

25

that was like a mailroom.

I do.

I -- since retirement, I work as a contractor in a

Now, back in 1983, what were you doing when you were --

My first position with the Central Intelligence Agency was

I stapled material that came in

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 222 of 281 PageID# 4939
Zach W. - Direct

222

1

Q.

So essentially, you were doing clerical --

2

A.

It was a clerical position, yes.

3

Q.

Did you make a change in your career status at some point?

4

A.

I did.

5

known as the Directorate of Operations, now the Clandestine

6

Service, the National Clandestine Service.

7

professional ranks that summer.

8

Q.

9

case officer?

In, in the summer of 1985, I joined what was then

So I moved into the

At some point, did you become an operations officer or

10

A.

I did at the completion of training.

11

Q.

Have you spent time in the, as a case officer overseas?

12

A.

I have, yes.

13

Q.

As well as domestically?

14

A.

Domestically working out of Washington, yeah.

15

Q.

Let me direct your -- well, let me back up a second.

16

you were going through your training to become an operations

17

officer or case officer, were you trained in the proper

18

handling of classified information?

19

A.

20

beginning in 1983.

21

information, and so yes, you're trained on maintaining its

22

security and keeping things, keeping things secure.

23

Q.

24

did you?

25

A.

I was.

As

Actually, I probably got some training in that
I handled a great deal of classified

But back in 1983, you didn't deal with any human assets,

I did not, no.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 223 of 281 PageID# 4940
Zach W. - Direct

223

1

Q.

In training to become an operations officer, was that part

2

of your training?

3

A.

4

assets is, is probably one of the, of the highest order in the

5

training.

6

Q.

7

human assets, is that something that's reemphasized throughout

8

your career?

9

A.

Of course, yes.

To maintain the security of assets, human

Is that principle, the maintaining the security of your

It's reemphasized throughout your career -- the answer to

10

your question is yes.

The National Clandestine Service mission

11

is to recruit human assets, and so keeping them secure and safe

12

is, is critical and essential to the mission.

13

it is reinforced in training how to do it but then reinforced

14

throughout the, throughout the process that that's part of your

15

work.

16

Q.

And were you a case officer back in 1997?

17

A.

I was serving as an operations officer, as a case officer

18

in 1997, yes.

19

Q.

20

calling Classified Program No. 1?

21

A.

I did, yes.

22

Q.

Do you recall about when?

23

A.

I, I believe in the summer, maybe the late spring of 1997.

24

Q.

And how was it that you became familiar with this program?

25

A.

Well, I don't remember the details precisely, but what

So, of course,

And at that time, did you become familiar with what we are

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 224 of 281 PageID# 4941
Zach W. - Direct

224

1

would have happened, because it is a, was a highly sensitive

2

program, I didn't know anything about it.

3

anything about the source.

4

program until management came to me, probably my immediate

5

supervisor at the time, and probably with the decision of their

6

management along the chain, had decided to give me the

7

responsibility for the case as the case officer that had been

8

handling those responsibilities was moving on.

9

Q.

I didn't know

I didn't know anything about the

As part -- one of those responsibilities was dealing,

10

handling a human asset they were calling Merlin?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

Who was the case officer that preceded you in the handling

13

of Merlin?

14

A.

Laurie D.

15

Q.

What was the status of Classified Program No. 1 and Merlin

16

when you took over in mid-1997?

17

A.

18

primarily one where intelligence was obtained directly from

19

that source.

20

change the direction somewhat into a more operationally driven

21

program or operation, as we say.

22

anymore.

23

make operational achievements.

24

Q.

25

the program prior to your involvement in it.

My recollection is that the case up to that point had been

The plan moving forward was to expand that,

It wasn't about intelligence

It was about using Merlin's background and skills to

Now, when you -- you said you didn't know anything about
Did you have to

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 225 of 281 PageID# 4942
Zach W. - Direct

225

1

be read into the program?

2

A.

3

have given me a sense of what the case was to that point.

4

would have also read what we refer to as cable traffic, that

5

is, a history, a documented history of virtually everything

6

that goes on with, relating to a case.

7

have read everything about it; that would be unnecessary; but I

8

would have had enough information when the time came to meet

9

and take over these responsibilities that I'd have a good sense

Well, yes.

I would have met with Laurie D.

She would
I

I probably wouldn't

10

of who this person was and what, what our operational goals

11

were.

12

Q.

13

review were marked according to the special access of this, the

14

limited access of this program?

15

A.

16

when you are brought in and you're assigned a case like this,

17

it immediately becomes evident to the person who has those

18

responsibilities how sensitive it is because of the markings on

19

the, on the cables, the written products.

20

Q.

At some point, did you meet Merlin?

21

A.

I did.

22

Q.

And what name did you use for yourself for when you, when

23

you dealt with Merlin?

24

A.

I think at the time, I used the name Max.

25

Q.

And without saying the name, how did you refer to Merlin?

And the documents, the cables, the materials that you

Correct.

It was, it was very clear.

In fact, you know,

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 226 of 281 PageID# 4943
Zach W. - Direct

226

1

A.

I would have, I would have -- how would I have referred to

2

him?

3

Q.

Yes.

4

A.

In his, in his true name.

5

Q.

Not Merlin, but his true name?

6

A.

True name, whatever that was.

7

Q.

What was your job, what was your duty with respect to

8

Merlin and the status of the operation?

9

instructed to do?

In his name.

What were you

10

A.

As a handling case officer for a human asset, you have

11

multiple responsibilities.

12

maintain a good relationship.

13

of the agency.

14

very clear to him that I was from the CIA.

15

was no misunderstanding on that score.

16

First and foremost is to establish,
You represent, you are the face

Even though I was using the name Max, it was
There was no, there

So I represent the National Clandestine Service to

17

him.

It's to maintain that relationship, maintain it as a

18

positive relationship.

19

and work with him to achieve those goals that we'd agreed on.

20

Q.

Were you working with someone from headquarters as well?

21

A.

I, I was, I was taking guidance.

22

assessment.

23

headquarters, the Counter- -- in the Counterproliferation

24

Division.

25

Q.

It was also to explain to him the goals

I was providing

I was providing feedback with an office at

And did you have a specific point of contact within the

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 227 of 281 PageID# 4944
Zach W. - Direct

227

1

Counterproliferation Division?

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

Who was that?

4

A.

That person was Robert S.

5

Q.

And you also called him Bob?

6

A.

Bob, Bob S.

7

Q.

When you met with Merlin, was Bob S./Robert S. sometimes

8

present?

9

A.

Sometimes present, usually not.

Usually the meetings were

10

held -- if there was a need for, for Bob to come to the

11

meetings, of course he could, but for the most part, I met

12

Merlin one on one.

13

Q.

And just tell us what you were doing with Merlin.

14

A.

Well, the, the operation at the time, the direction that

15

was, we were going after was to use Merlin's background as a,

16

as an engineer involved in nuclear-related materials Russian

17

and use that and leverage that profile and that experience to

18

attract attention from Iranian officials involved in their

19

nuclear weapons program.

20

Q.

21

goal?

22

A.

23

closely coming up with potential people for him to engage.

24

know, it's very interesting, you -- today's world is not the

25

world of, of the mid-late '90s when it comes to, you know,

That's kind of standard procedure.

And did you help him, coach him on how to accomplish this

Yeah, I'd like to think I did.

I -- we worked very
You

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 228 of 281 PageID# 4945
Zach W. - Direct

228

1

being able to Google things in and immediately quick responses.

2

The Internet was quite in its, in its earliest phases.

3

Everything was www\, etc.

4

it took a lot of effort simply even to find potential

5

individuals or organizations or institutions online to reach

6

out to, to potentially float him and then do it, do it

7

consistently and do it in such a way that would, would come

8

across to those targets as being genuine.

9

I mean, you had to get it right, and

So there was a lot of back-and-forth.

There was a

10

lot of engagement in a very practical way in that regard.

11

Q.

12

Iranian officials done through the Internet?

13

A.

14

was done in genuine old-fashioned put a stamp on the letter and

15

send it and see what response we get.

16

was -- that wasn't just done to accomplish that because we

17

thought, Okay, that's how they'll respond.

18

promote a profile that really gave Merlin credibility in his

19

efforts to engage those targets.

20

Q.

21

of his Internet work and --

22

A.

23

could get on his own.

24

ideas from them.

25

would pass information to me.

And was most of the, most of the attempt to attract

It wasn't entirely done through the Internet.

Some of it

Yeah, the whole goal

The goal was to

And did you task him with providing you with the results

Absolutely.

I would, I would, for instance, see what he
I would sometimes ask Washington for

I would pass that information to him.

He

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 229 of 281 PageID# 4946
Zach W. - Direct
1

229

We'd talk very carefully about the wording of his

2

efforts to make those, those contacts, very carefully about how

3

to word it.

4

orchestrated.

5

those decisions.

6

Washington, myself, and, and Merlin and then back-and-forth.

7

So it was a continuous continuation effort.

8

Q.

Did he bring you evidence of the results of his work?

9

A.

Absolutely.

He, he wasn't -- everything was very carefully
There was not any sort of effort alone to make
There was constant contact between

Sometimes it was voluminous.

Sometimes on,

10

you know, printer paper that we'd all laugh at today.

11

it was, it was volumes of stuff.

12

I mean,

When I reflect back, I can't help but convey just how

13

different the time was with regards to technology.

Today it's,

14

it's Google, print, you got a list of whatever.

15

the case then.

16

computers themselves were, were not as reliable as they are

17

today.

18

Q.

Was he doing the computer work primarily from his home?

19

A.

He was.

20

other things on it, but yes, there was a -- he did.

21

from time to time, he may have checked to see whether he got

22

any bites from his computer at work, but he didn't do anything

23

operationally with, with that computer.

24

Q.

Have you been at his home?

25

A.

I was at his home, yes.

That wasn't

It took a lot of work, a lot of effort.

He had a computer designated for this.

And

He did
I think

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 230 of 281 PageID# 4947
Zach W. - Direct

230

1

Q.

And I believe you've mentioned that the target was, at

2

this point was, was Iran?

3

A.

4

something to do with why I was chosen to take responsibility

5

for the case.

6

past.

7

Q.

Were you aware of any other targets at that point?

8

A.

No.

9

Q.

And what else was going on in the operation from, from CP

Iran.

And I think, I think it -- that might have had

I'd done work on Iranian-related issues in the

10

standpoint?

11

sort of fall in place in order to move forward?

12

A.

13

these targets if you didn't have something to provide them or

14

something to sort of bait them if contact was made, and so

15

quite separate but parallel was an effort by individuals in CP

16

Division to create a material that ideally Merlin could then

17

use to attract these targets.

18

Q.

Were you heavily involved in that process?

19

A.

I wasn't heavily involved in it.

20

not, I'm not a technically minded person particularly, but I --

21

it wasn't that sophisticated that I didn't understand it, but I

22

was not directly involved in anything related to that, that

23

material itself.

24

Q.

25

were aware of it?

Sure.

What, what other aspects of the operation had to

Well, it did no good if you were trying to engage

I was aware of it.

I'm

How was it that you would be communicating with those who
Was that --

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 231 of 281 PageID# 4948
Zach W. - Direct

231

1

A.

Most of it was, most of it was really informing me and my

2

office of the status of that effort.

3

wasn't -- there would be a message sent about a topic, and in

4

it would also say something like, you know, and that's, in

5

parallel we're working with the next phase or so forth.

6

It wasn't really, it

So it was often I was informed of it, but it wasn't

7

something that I was directly aware of, you know, on a

8

day-to-day basis by any means.

9

Q.

And when you refer to your office, your office at this

10

time was in New York?

11

A.

In New York City.

12

Q.

At some point, were you going to move on to a new

13

assignment?

14

A.

15

me to, to move on to another office.

16

Q.

17

and, and Merlin?

18

A.

19

on not only responsibilities for this case but other, some

20

other responsibilities of mine and I think some other

21

responsibilities of other, other people as well, but it was

22

time to transfer responsibility from, from the -- of this case

23

to another officer.

24

Q.

25

Program No. 1 and Merlin?

Yes.

In the, in the fall of 1998, an opportunity came for

So what is it that you did with Classified Program No. 1

The office identified an incoming officer who would take

And who was the officer that was going to get Classified

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 232 of 281 PageID# 4949
Zach W. - Direct

232

1

A.

Mr. Sterling.

2

Q.

And do you see him in the courtroom?

3

A.

I do.

4

Q.

Would you point him out, please?

5

A.

Right there (indicating).

6

THE COURT:

7

MR. POLLACK:

8

No, Your Honor.

There's no question

this is Mr. Sterling.

9
10

Any issue about the identification?

THE COURT:

All right, the identification is

established.

11

THE WITNESS:

This would have been in the same

12

regards that, when responsibility was transferred to me a

13

year-and-a-half earlier, similar circumstances.

14

BY MR. TRUMP:

15

Q.

16

the, the change was going to take place?

17

A.

18

Washington.

19

Counterproliferation Division, but I --

20

Q.

But he wasn't in New York yet?

21

A.

He was not in New York yet.

22

that.

23

Q.

24

point you would introduce Mr. Sterling to Merlin?

25

A.

Where was Mr. Sterling, the defendant, working at the time

I, I don't know for sure.

I know headquarters.

I know the Washington area.

I know

I believe

And I could be wrong on, on

Where was the -- was there a meeting planned at which

There was a meeting planned.

It was not for that sole

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 233 of 281 PageID# 4950
Zach W. - Direct

233

1

purpose only, but that was going to be, it was a sort of

2

phased-in effort because the plan was to introduce Mr. Sterling

3

even before he moved to New York City.

4

Q.

Where was that meeting going to take place?

5

A.

San Francisco, California.

6

Q.

And did it, in fact, take place in San Francisco?

7

A.

It did take place in San Francisco.

8

Q.

Approximately when was that?

9

A.

In, in I want to say mid-November of 1998.

10

Q.

And who were the people who went to San Francisco for that

11

meeting?

12

A.

13

and a, a contractor who was primarily technically, technically

14

focused by the name of Len.

15

Q.

And what was planned for, for San Francisco?

16

A.

Well, what was planned, there were a couple of important

17

things that were to take place there.

18

meet Mr. Sterling, and that was important because that

19

relationship was important to get off to a good start.

20

also time for all those efforts that had gone into the crafting

21

of the, the product, that ideally if all things came to be, we,

22

we would have Merlin attract the Iranian targets.

23

Merlin and Merlin's spouse, myself, Mr. Sterling, Bob S.,

One is for Merlin to

It was

So there was a time to show that product at least in

24

its initial approved draft form to Merlin and talk about with

25

him the story he would tell to any Iranians that might show

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 234 of 281 PageID# 4951
Zach W. - Direct

234

1

interest.

2

Q.

3

Mr. Sterling.

4

A.

I had met Mr. Sterling before.

5

Q.

And how was that?

6

with him?

7

A.

8

Iranian-related issues in the past, and although I had never

9

worked with Mr. Sterling up to that point in any, in any

Let's get back to the purpose in terms of meeting
Had you met Mr. Sterling before?

How was it that you came in contact

Well, we were both officers who had worked on

10

great -- that I remember in any specific cases, we would run

11

into each other at different forums related to Iran or working

12

that, that issue and so on, and so I knew him in that context.

13

Q.

14

Mr. Sterling?

15

A.

He was.

16

Q.

How did it go?

17

A.

I think it went very well.

18

introduced, I think the first time was at, was at breakfast.

19

It was sort of a public setting, so it's a little bit, a little

20

formality to that, but it was all very, it was -- I think it

21

went very well.

22

well.

23

Q.

And did Mr. Sterling also meet Mrs. Merlin?

24

A.

He did.

25

place in a, in a way that there would be some social time and

So in San Francisco, was Merlin introduced to

It went very well.

He was

I think the relationship seemed to go very

You know, the, the meetings in San Francisco took

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 235 of 281 PageID# 4952
Zach W. - Direct

235

1

then there would be some work, focus on work, and then there

2

would be some social time, some down time for that relationship

3

to take off both with Merlin and, and Mrs. Merlin, and so over

4

the course of a couple days, there was a combination of sort of

5

social interaction, maybe some meals, some local -- some work

6

behind closed doors where we're talking about the specifics of

7

the case and how we're moving it forward, etc., etc., and then

8

followed by some more social time.

9

Q.

Let's talk about the work behind closed doors.

At some

10

point, you had meetings to talk about the operation; is that

11

right?

12

A.

We did.

13

Q.

Where did they take place?

14

A.

They took place in a, in a hotel suite.

15

Q.

And who was present while the operational meeting was

16

taking place?

17

A.

18

and Merlin.

19

Q.

And Mrs. Merlin was not participating in those meetings?

20

A.

No.

21

Q.

Who was the most senior person in terms of the operation

22

present at the meeting?

23

A.

Bob S.

24

Q.

Were the -- was the product shown to Mr., Mr. Merlin?

25

A.

Yes.

Myself; Mr. Sterling; Bob S.; Len, this technical officer;

The product was, it was sort of a diagram, and I, I

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 236 of 281 PageID# 4953
Zach W. - Direct

236

1

also recall sort of a complimentary list of, of parts included

2

in the diagram of this piece of technology to which he could

3

realistically claim to have knowledge of enough to attract the

4

Iranian targets.

5

Q.

6

talking about?

7

A.

8

a nuclear missile.

9

Q.

We're dealing with nuclear weapons here, right?

10

A.

Nuclear weapons.

11

Q.

What happened when Merlin was given the diagram and the

12

list?

13

A.

14

it, and he said, well, you know, it should be this and it

15

should be this, but it was, it was a good discussion actually.

16

It was a quite good discussion.

Do you recall today what, what type of technology we're

It was a, I believe, a firing set from a -- for a nuclear,

Well, I, you know, he, he is an engineer, and he looked at

17

His reaction was, gee, maybe you should have some of

18

this on, more on this list, or this doesn't match.

There was a

19

good dialogue that went back and forth about, about the

20

product.

21

It was very important, I think, for all of us at the

22

time to incorporate and to listen to Merlin's ideas on it, but

23

there was a good give-and-take, and he had some questions that

24

Len, the technical person, had to go back to the people who

25

helped him craft this diagram and this list of parts and so

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 237 of 281 PageID# 4954
Zach W. - Direct

237

1

forth and clarify.

2

Q.

3

raised?

4

A.

5

diagram, and then there's a list of parts, and I -- my

6

recollection is that there were things included in the diagram

7

that were absent from the parts, and he thought there should

8

have been, there should have been, everything here should have

9

been here, but as we explained to him, the legend that we were

And do you recall some of the specific concerns that he

He, he thought that there were parts -- there was a

10

prompting him to use and coaching him to use with the Iranians,

11

we explained to him why that, that it had been crafted that

12

way.

13

Q.

14

taken seriously?

15

A.

16

know, this is, this is serious business, and it's, it was

17

critical for those of us working to achieve those goals to have

18

Merlin committed 100 percent to the process.

19

there engaging these targets, serious people, and so the key

20

was to craft a story and make sure he was comfortable with it

21

so when he raised issues -- and I say "issues."

22

not -- for the most part, it was accepting, okay, I think this

23

can work.

24

Q.

25

his questions at those meetings?

These, these questions that he asked, what, were they

Oh, they were taken quite seriously, quite seriously.

You

He's the one out

That was

Did you or Robert S. or Len or anybody else answer all of

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 238 of 281 PageID# 4955
Zach W. - Direct
No, we couldn't.

238

1

A.

We couldn't because some of the

2

questions were even beyond the technical expertise of Len, who

3

was there.

4

and he accepted that.

5

Q.

And was it planned to get back to him?

6

A.

Yeah, I got back to him.

7

later specifically.

8

Q.

9

Merlin during, during these meetings or during the social

It was important for, for us to get back to him,
He accepted that.

I got back to him a couple weeks

Did you have any private, one-on-one conversations with

10

activity?

11

A.

12

breakfast, and then we'd gone into meetings, and then I think

13

there was a lunch break, and then we spent the afternoon in

14

more meetings, and at the end, pretty much everyone left.

15

had been meeting Merlin at that point for a year and a half or

16

however long it was, and so I probably had the best

17

relationship, and I stayed behind and spoke to him and got his

18

temperature, took his sort of temperature on what he thought of

19

the new officer who would be taking over, and he was very

20

positive about it.

21

I did.

I had one, one short -- we'd started the day with

I

This -- I had mentioned the fact of an introduction.

22

It didn't come as a surprise to him in San Francisco.

He knew

23

he'd be meeting someone new, and he'd now had that experience a

24

couple of times in his relatively short association with the

25

agency, so it, it was not, it was not a new thing to him.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 239 of 281 PageID# 4956
Zach W. - Direct

239

1

Q.

Did you have any private conversations or conversations

2

solely with Mr. Sterling while you were in San Francisco?

3

A.

4

I work, but I don't, I don't honestly remember anything

5

substantive.

6

the case.

7

looking over the diagram and we would have walked to another,

8

to another part of the suite and had a conversation about this

9

or that, but I don't, I don't remember it as being any

I'm sure I did.

I'm sure I did because it's just the way

We would have been talking very much about, about

So it's quite possible that it would have been

10

substantive issue.

11

Q.

12

you on any issues that had come up during the meetings?

13

A.

14

it was a great case, and I thought it had great potential, and

15

I think that seemed the view of everyone.

16

little saddened that it had not gotten further along during my,

17

during my tenure; that's all.

18

Q.

19

Robert S. without you present?

20

A.

21

following day, and -- or at least a day later than everyone

22

else.

23

to, to be the most important one, and so they did.

24

some time.

25

off to do some Wine Country touring and so forth to build that

Did Mr. Sterling raise any concerns with you or address

No, no, no.

I, you know, I thought it was a -- I thought

I felt, I felt a

Did Merlin and Mrs. Merlin socialize with Mr. Sterling and

They did.

I went -- I returned back to New York the

I went back early.

It was time for that relationship
They spent

They, they took a morning or an afternoon and went

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 240 of 281 PageID# 4957
Zach W. - Direct

240

1

relationship.

2

Q.

You were not present with them?

3

A.

I was not.

4

Q.

Did you know where they went?

5

A.

I know they went to Wine Country.

6

was Sonoma or Napa or -- I don't know.

7

Q.

8

these meetings?

9

A.

I don't know whether it

So how was it left with, with Merlin at the conclusion of

Well, we'd -- at the conclusion of the meetings, we'd gone

10

over a couple --

11

Q.

In terms of the operation.

12

A.

Yeah, right.

13

specifics and how, how he was supposed to engage the potential

14

targets that would come his way.

15

it a couple of times.

16

explained that it wasn't just a matter of he would be out there

17

alone.

18

unnamed, went over that as a legend, as a story.

19

it repeatedly so that he was secure with it.

20

We'd gone over a couple of times the

We repeated that, went over

He asked some questions.

We, we

He'd be potentially representing others unknown,
We went over

And as far as his questions went on the material on

21

the diagram, we said we'd get back to him, and we, and we did a

22

couple weeks later.

23

Q.

You returned to New York?

24

A.

I returned to New York.

25

Q.

And you're still the case officer --

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 241 of 281 PageID# 4958
Zach W. - Direct

241

1

A.

I'm still the case officer.

2

Q.

-- with respect to this program.

3

So what happened when you got back to New York in

4

terms of your follow-up?

5

A.

6

It might have, it might have been the end -- maybe ten days

7

later, something like that, and I would have collected the

8

receipts.

9

administrative things to the, to the case, all of his, all of

I had a meeting scheduled with him not too much longer.

I would have been responsible for all of the

10

his expenses out in San Francisco, so there would have been

11

that, and then I would have, I would have also relayed to him

12

information that had already come.

13

I think at that point, we hadn't quite gotten clarity

14

yet on, on where -- on his issues.

I don't think that was done

15

at my personal meeting with him.

16

conveyed until a subsequent meeting just a few days later after

17

Mr. Sterling had arrived in New York.

18

Q.

19

not present?

20

A.

21

It was also more on things he was doing to gain access to

22

targets.

23

wrong; it's been a long time; but, but where we really

24

explained to him, you know, addressed his questions that he had

25

about the material was done at the final meeting I had with

I don't think that was

So at this first meeting that you had, Mr. Sterling was

No.

It was, it was -- I think it was more on research.

It was administrative for the most part.

I could be

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 242 of 281 PageID# 4959
Zach W. - Direct

242

1

Merlin, where Mr. Sterling was, was present.

2

Q.

3

documented as part of the CIA's recordkeeping?

4

A.

5

cables.

6

it's never happened until it's written down, so when there's a

7

meeting when there's something like this that happens, we

8

record it, we make the official U.S. government record of it on

9

whatever end of the spectrum, whether it's in the Washington

10
11

The things that we've been talking about, how are they

We communicate in written form, in what we call official
It, it -- the parlance in our organization is that

end, whether it's the field end, and that's how we communicate.
There might be a phone call in between to report on

12

something urgent, but for the most part, everything on which

13

action is taken requires something written down, a cable.

14

MR. TRUMP:

At this time, I'd like to ask that the

15

jurors can get their notebooks.

16

THE COURT:

All right.

Now, ladies and gentlemen,

17

what has been done is many of these cables, because I noticed

18

you were squinting before when you were trying to look at the

19

screens, are now in a notebook.

20

not go rummaging through the book.

21

particular tab that's being addressed.

It's very important that you
Just only turn to the

22

And, Mr. Wood, do you have those?

23

MR. TRUMP:

Before they open their notebooks, I'd

24

like to take the witness through a series of foundation

25

questions with respect to them, unless there's no objection to

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 243 of 281 PageID# 4960
Zach W. - Direct
1

243

their admission.

2

THE COURT:

What are -- list the exhibit numbers that

3

you're going to be discussing.

4

Don't open the books yet, folks.

5

MR. TRUMP:

8, 10, 13, 14, and 15.

6

THE COURT:

All right.

7

those exhibits?

8

MR. POLLACK:

9

THE COURT:

10

No, Your Honor.
All right.

So 8, 10, 13, 14, and 15.

8,

10, 13, 14, and 15 are in evidence.

11
12

Are there any objections to

(Government's Exhibit Nos. 8, 10, and 13 through 15
were received in evidence.)

13

MR. TRUMP:

Your Honor, I guess if there's no

14

objection to any of the cables, we could move them all in

15

but --

16

THE COURT:

Well, let's keep it organized.

Right

17

now, again, the jury should not open the books until we address

18

a particular exhibit.

19

BY MR. TRUMP:

20

Q.

And do you have the notebook in front of you, sir?

21

A.

I don't.

22

MR. TRUMP:

Could he have an exhibit book, please?

23

THE COURT SECURITY OFFICER:

24

THE COURT:

25

THE COURT SECURITY OFFICER:

An exhibit book?

An exhibit book for the witness, please.
What page?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 244 of 281 PageID# 4961
Zach W. - Direct
1
2

THE COURT:
going to discuss?

3
4

244
8.

I assume 8 is the first one you're

Wait, do you have the separate one?

MR. TRUMP:

If you just hand him the binder, he can

follow along.

5

THE COURT:

All right, which exhibit number,

7

MR. TRUMP:

Exhibit 8.

8

THE COURT:

8.

6

9

Mr. Trump?

So, folks, you may now open your

books to Exhibit 8, please.

10

BY MR. TRUMP:

11

Q.

Do you see Exhibit 8 in front of you?

12

A.

I do.

13

Q.

And is that one of the official cables you just --

14

A.

Yes.

15

been -- we would have written on this case.

16

Q.

17

from cables sent from headquarters?

18

A.

19

designated up here, where it says at the very top under the

20

first "Secret," "To CIA Office No. 2."

21

designated the location it was being sent to, would have been

22

coming out of Langley, which would have indicated Washington.

23

Q.

So in this case, New York is CIA Office No. 2, correct?

24

A.

Correct.

25

Q.

And so this, this is a cable that was sent to you?

I have it.

That would be an example of a cable that would have

And are there cables sent from the field as distinguished

Correct, there are.

And that, that site is generally

That would have

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 245 of 281 PageID# 4962
Zach W. - Direct

245

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

And do you recall who sent it to you?

3

A.

I, I don't recall specifically.

4

person who wrote it either was Robert S. or worked for him or,

5

or something.

6

looking at the very bottom.

7

Q.

And "CP" is counterproliferation?

8

A.

Counterproliferation.

9

I'm assuming that the

It says down here "Originator, Mr. S.," so I'm

I would also say from a, from a content point of

10

view, this is an exact example of the kind of go, the

11

back-and-forth that went on.

12

worked with Merlin to craft language of a letter that he might

13

send to the potential targets.

14

didn't have the authority to say, "Send it."

15

work with him.

He wouldn't just send it.

I

I would have to

We might massage it to --

16

MR. POLLACK:

17

THE COURT:

18

MR. POLLACK:

19

THE COURT:

20

In other words, I would have

Your Honor -Yeah, I think the answer is going --- there's no pending questions.
Right.

It's better to just wait for

the --

21

THE WITNESS:

Oh, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

22

BY MR. TRUMP:

23

Q.

Let's just --

24

A.

Sure.

25

Q.

-- talk a little bit about understanding the cables so

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 246 of 281 PageID# 4963
Zach W. - Direct

246

1

that --

2

A.

Gotcha.

3

Q.

Since you received this cable, generally, it is something

4

that you are either being informed of or being tasked to do by

5

Mr. S. or someone within CP?

6

A.

Correct, correct.

7

Q.

Referring to paragraph 2 --

8

A.

Um-hum.

9

Q.

-- is that an example of the exchange that you had

10

described previously in which --

11

A.

Exactly.

12

Q.

-- you and Merlin would discuss his Internet searches and

13

things like that?

14

A.

Yep.

15

Q.

And then you got back to CP on certain suggestions?

16

A.

Correct.

17

Q.

The rest of paragraph 2 reflects CP keeping you up to date

18

on what's going on?

19

A.

Correct.

20

Q.

And this type of cable was one that went back and forth --

21

A.

All the time.

22

Q.

-- all the time on this operation?

23

A.

When there was something to be said, yeah.

24

Q.

And let's go to Exhibit 10.

25

Also, as I sort of described in parallel, yeah.

THE COURT:

All right, you folks may turn to 10 now.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 247 of 281 PageID# 4964
Zach W. - Direct

247

1

BY MR. TRUMP:

2

Q.

Now, is that a cable you sent?

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

And you sent it to whom?

5

A.

To, to Langley, to headquarters.

6

Q.

And who was getting these cables from you at headquarters?

7

A.

A very select group of people in Counterproliferation

8

Division who were read into the case.

9

Q.

And that would include Robert S.?

10

A.

And that would have included Robert S.

11

Q.

And you are Mr. W.?

12

A.

And I am Mr. W.

13

Q.

And what does this cable reflect?

14

A.

The status of the case, the planning for the eventual trip

15

to San Francisco.

16

I'll be leaving the post for another job and that someone new

17

will be coming in.

18

I think, to his computer.

19

Q.

And the date of this cable is at the top, correct?

20

A.

Correct.

21

would have been, the 29th of October, 1998.

22

Q.

23

headquarters that you had a meeting with Merlin?

24

A.

Just two days before, on the 27th of October.

25

Q.

And paragraph 2 is the paragraph that relates to

This is the first time I tell Merlin that

He provided some additional things related,

Right under the page No. 1, that's the date it

So on the 29th of October, you're informing people back at

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 248 of 281 PageID# 4965
Zach W. - Direct

248

1

discussion that was had at that meeting?

2

A.

Correct.

3

Q.

Including problems with Merlin's computer, right?

4

A.

Yep.

5

Q.

Paragraph 3 anticipates your meeting in San Francisco,

6

right?

7

A.

Correct.

8

Q.

And then paragraph 4 is the discussion of the change from

9

you to a new case officer?

It's almost purely administrative.

10

A.

Correct.

11

Q.

And let's jump ahead then to No. 13.

12

THE COURT:

All right, Exhibit 13.

13

BY MR. TRUMP:

14

Q.

Do you see cable 13?

15

A.

I do.

16

Q.

What's the date of that cable?

17

A.

The 17th of November.

18

Q.

And did this cable originate out of New York or out of

19

headquarters?

20

A.

Out of New York to headquarters.

21

Q.

And were you the author of this cable?

22

A.

I was the author of this cable.

23

Q.

What are you describing generally in this cable?

24

A.

Basically, everything that happened in San Francisco in a,

25

in a nutshell.

I have it in front of me.

Not every he said/she said, but everything from

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 249 of 281 PageID# 4966
Zach W. - Direct

249

1

how the meetings were, were broken down to basically how the

2

schedule went, to how people spent their time, to questions

3

that Merlin had, how it all seemed to, to go.

4

Q.

5

reflects Mr. Sterling's introduction to, to Merlin?

6

A.

Correct.

7

Q.

And the fact that the plans were shown to, to Merlin?

8

A.

The fire set plans.

9

story that he was going to use with the potential targets.

And in paragraph 2, for example, that's where the cable

And we began to work on his, his

10

Q.

Let me refer you to the fourth paragraph.

11

A.

Um-hum.

12

Q.

Does that paragraph discuss -- do you discuss in that

13

paragraph the after lunch meeting with Merlin?

14

A.

I do.

15

Q.

And in that paragraph, what do you discuss with respect to

16

the legend, the cover arrangement with, with Merlin in terms of

17

how he was going to describe these plans?

18

A.

19

fronting for others, other unnamed associates of his who had --

20

who he would have known and with whom he would have engaged

21

from his previous experience in Russia.

22

Q.

23

paragraph, do you describe M as the middleman?

24

A.

Yeah.

25

Q.

And right after that, how do you describe the plans?

Well, the basis of his story was going to be that he was

Let's, let's deal specifically with paragraph 4.

In that

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 250 of 281 PageID# 4967
Zach W. - Direct

250

1

A.

2

other Russians whom he had met and who wanted to market them

3

for financial gain.

4

Q.

And keep going.

5

A.

Merlin was serving as the middleman.

6

incomplete but would be found to be true and accurate upon

7

Iran's careful review.

8

information that would make the plans complete, they would have

9

to pay Merlin and his unnamed colleagues.

10

The fire set plans were not of his design but came from

The plans were

Basically, if the Iranians wanted the

This, this was the core of the story.

11

Q.

Was that, in fact, discussed at the meeting?

12

A.

That was, in fact, discussed at the meeting.

13

Q.

Did Merlin recognize at some point that the plans were

14

incomplete?

15

A.

16

incomplete, but I think he -- yeah, I think he recognized that,

17

yeah.

18

Iran on how to build a nuclear weapon.

19

Q.

And Mr. Sterling was at this meeting?

20

A.

Mr. Sterling was at that meeting.

21

Q.

Now, let's jump ahead to 14.

22

Yes, he did.

I don't know that he said they were

The goal was never, ever to provide complete plans to

THE COURT:

23

BY MR. TRUMP:

24

Q.

25

with Merlin?

Exhibit 14.

Was this a cable you received in the context of your work

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 251 of 281 PageID# 4968
Zach W. - Direct

251

1

A.

No, this was a cable that I probably wrote in part with

2

Mr. Sterling after --

3

Q.

Exhibit 14?

4

A.

Excuse me?

5

Q.

No. 14.

6

A.

No. 14, I'm so sorry.

7

I'm sorry.

8
9

I thought I had 14.

I'm so sorry.

This was a cable I would have received from
Washington.

10

Q.

And what's the date on this cable?

11

A.

25 November 1998.

12

Q.

And what is the context of receiving this cable in the

13

context of your San Francisco meeting?

14

A.

15

explain to him and give him answers to the questions he raised

16

about the, the material in San Francisco.

17

Q.

18

from headquarters through the lab that you would then later

19

take to, to Merlin?

20

A.

Yes, this was how.

21

Q.

And in paragraph 2, it discusses the question that Merlin

22

had at the meeting, the request to verify the accuracy of the

23

schematic and the parts list presented to Merlin during the

24

training session?

25

meeting?

To help those of us who were going to meet Merlin to

And in -- was this the way that you got the information

That's referring to the San Francisco

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 252 of 281 PageID# 4969
Zach W. - Direct

252

1

A.

Correct.

2

Q.

What does it say following that, "As we had expected"?

3

A.

"As we had expected, the inclusion of certain assemblies

4

on the parts list but not on the schematic was indeed

5

intentional, with the goal of suggesting that the anonymous

6

fire set designer knew that these two assemblies, these

7

specific parts, were essential but did not know how to make the

8

spec or spec them in any detail.

9

the Iranians if they were to raise this issue."

That would be his story to

10

Q.

So this is what you're to take back to Merlin to respond

11

to the questions that he had at the meeting?

12

A.

Correct.

13

Q.

And paragraph 3 is further advice as to how you should

14

explain this to Merlin?

15

A.

Exactly, yes.

16

Q.

And then finally, 15.

17

The plan to -- yes.

THE COURT:

Exhibit 15.

18

BY MR. TRUMP:

19

Q.

What is the date of that cable?

20

A.

11 December 1998.

21

Q.

And were you the author of this cable?

22

A.

I was.

23

Mr. Sterling.

24

Q.

25

program?

And I, I think I coordinated it with, with

Was this your last cable as case officer on this, on this

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 253 of 281 PageID# 4970
Zach W. - Direct

253

1

A.

Case?

Yes.

2

Q.

And just generally, what was -- this cable reflects what?

3

15.

4

MR. MAC MAHON:

5

MR. TRUMP:

6

THE WITNESS:

Thank you.

Exhibit 15.
Um-hum.

7

BY MR. TRUMP:

8

Q.

9

going to explain to Merlin --

Was this the follow-up to the meeting at which you were

10

A.

Correct.

This was our, this was our opportunity to

11

address his, the questions he'd raised.

12

Q.

When did the meeting take place?

13

A.

December 10, in the evening.

14

Q.

That was in New York?

15

A.

In New York City.

16

Q.

And who was present at the meeting?

17

A.

Myself, Merlin, and Mr. Sterling.

18

Q.

And does paragraph 3 accurately reflect the information

19

that you provided to Merlin that you got from the lab?

20

A.

Yes, it does.

21

Q.

And would you just briefly summarize that?

22

A.

Can I, can I read a section from it?

23

Q.

Sure.

24

A.

"It was explained to Merlin that it made sense for the

25

designer of the fire set to know that certain parts, mainly

Paragraph 3.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 254 of 281 PageID# 4971
Zach W. - Direct

254

1

these two, are included within the fire set design but that he

2

would not necessarily know how to configure such elements; in

3

other words, the designer knows what they are and where they go

4

in a schematic, but he would not know how to design such parts

5

himself, therefore negating them from the parts list."

6

Q.

7

the discrepancy between the schematic and the parts list that

8

Merlin saw was, in fact, intended?

9

A.

Was intended.

10

Q.

What was Merlin's response when you provided this

11

explanation?

12

A.

13

in this period, as I recollect, was always trying to make the

14

product better, more complete, more understanding, and so he

15

accepted it.

16

suggesting that some, some of the parts be identified in

17

Russian, maybe we look at it in a different way or so forth and

18

so on, but there was -- this was not an issue of conflict at

19

all.

And right before that sentence, the lab reiterated that

And that we told him that.

Merlin was always trying to make the, you know, in this,

20

He had some additional follow-up questions, maybe

There was, there was no -- this was a genuine

21

conversation on how to, how to move this forward.

22

Q.

23

concern that perhaps you were asking him to hand over

24

technology to the Iranians that would allow them to build this

25

device?

Now, during that meeting, did, did Merlin express any

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 255 of 281 PageID# 4972
Zach W. - Direct
No, never.

255

1

A.

Not at this meeting or at any other meeting

2

that I participated.

3

Q.

4

somehow this was a mismanaged, bungled operation?

5

A.

No, not when I was there.

6

Q.

And that, and that somehow we would be -- we, the

7

government, would be handing over technology that would allow

8

the Iranians to advance their nuclear weapons program?

9

A.

How about Mr. Sterling?

No.

Did he express any concerns that

That was, that was, that was never discussed.

The

10

goal was always very clear to Merlin, to provide quite the

11

opposite.

12

Q.

You sum up this cable in paragraph 7?

13

A.

I do.

14

Q.

And as you sum it up, when you left that meeting, what was

15

your impression of where you stood in the operation?

16

A.

17

teed up and, and moving along.

18

coming in sync.

Well, I was out of the operation.

19

I thought that it was

I mean, all parts seemed to be

Where we were lacking at that point was that we

20

didn't have a legitimate target.

You know, paragraph 4 is

21

interesting in that regard, too, on this.

22

Q.

23

from Mr. Sterling -- from you to Mr. Sterling as related to, to

24

Merlin?

25

A.

And did you have any concern at all with the changeover

I had no concerns whatsoever.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 256 of 281 PageID# 4973
Zach W. - Direct

256

1

Q.

Was this the last time you saw Merlin?

2

A.

It was.

3

Q.

What type of electronic access did you have at your New

4

York office with respect to this type of cable traffic?

5

A.

While I was responsible for it --

6

Q.

While you were responsible for it.

7

A.

While I was responsible for it, I would have access on my

8

computer to a certain file, that's the best way to describe it,

9

that would give me access to all the messages, all the cables

10

related to the case that came to New York.

11

Q.

12

somewhere and didn't copy New York, you didn't get it?

13

A.

14

it.

15

Q.

16

But if, if Robert S. sent out a cable to some other office

I would not see it.

I wouldn't have anything to do with

Did you maintain any -- did you -- sorry, poor phrasing.
When, when Merlin gave you stuff, documents, e-mails

17

and things, how did you handle that information?

18

A.

19

as sort of a soft file.

20

printed up.

21

retained copies, I retained copies, material he'd pulled down

22

off the Internet that we might be actively pursuing, there

23

might be a folder like that, and I would have maintained it in

24

my, in my safe.

25

Q.

Some of this I kept in a, in what could best be described
Maybe the most recent cable traffic

Maybe some of the material that he'd given me he

Was it maintained in the same manner as documents that

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 257 of 281 PageID# 4974
Zach W. - Direct

257

1

were actually marked by the agency?

In other words, Merlin

2

didn't have any stamps to put on the documents:

3

Secret, whatever?

4

A.

5

access that he pulled down off the Internet, none of which is

6

classified.

7

Q.

Once it came to you --

8

A.

Yes.

9

Q.

-- how did you handle it?

10

A.

I would have handled it -- I would have put the whole

11

package together, and it would have been handled, even though

12

it wasn't classified, it would have been connected to this

13

case, and I would have maintained it securely.

14

nothing, there's nothing classified about it, but once you put

15

piece 1 with piece 2, it becomes sensitive, and you maintain it

16

accordingly.

17

Q.

18

between you and Merlin and this operation?

19

A.

20

things if he pulled it off of his computer, if he printed it

21

off his computer, there might have been elements about his

22

computer that were on there.

23

necessarily classified, but now elements related to his

24

computer were.

25

securely.

Secret, Top

Well, he didn't have any of that -- he would have had

There's

And the reason for that is it provides a connection

Well, and also you have to understand there's certain

The material he pulled wasn't

You maintain his secrecy, his safety, and

That's why you treat it as sensitive.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 258 of 281 PageID# 4975
Zach W. - Direct

258

1

MR. TRUMP:

The Court's indulgence?

2

THE COURT:

Yes, sir.

3

MR. TRUMP:

The Court's indulgence?

4

Q.

Now --

5

THE COURT:

Are you using the notebooks any further?

6

MR. TRUMP:

I don't think so, Your Honor.

7

THE COURT:

All right, folks, you can close them up

8

then, all right?

9

BY MR. TRUMP:

Thank you.

10

Q.

Do you know someone by the name of James Risen?

11

A.

I, I know who he is.

12

Q.

Have you ever met him?

13

A.

No.

14

Q.

Have you ever talked to him?

15

A.

No.

16

Q.

Did you provide any information to him about anything you

17

worked on at the CIA?

18

A.

Never.

19

Q.

Have you ever discussed Classified Program No. 1, Human

20

Asset No. 1, Merlin, with anyone that you knew who was not

21

cleared to receive that information?

22

A.

No.

23

Q.

After you left New York and you went on to other things,

24

did you ever -- were you ever read back into the program?

25

A.

I don't know him.

No.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 259 of 281 PageID# 4976
Zach W. - Cross

259

1

Q.

As a result, were you able to follow what happened with

2

Merlin and what happened with the operation?

3

A.

4

appropriate for me to follow up on.

5

might not have been a casual conversation in a cafeteria

6

sometime saying, you know, "How are things going?"

No.

It wouldn't have been anything that would have been
That's not to say there

7

"Great."

8

But that would have been truly the extent of the

9

details.

10

MR. TRUMP:

11

Nothing further, Your Honor.

12

THE COURT:

13

MR. POLLACK:

14

The Court's indulgence?

All right, Mr. Pollack?
Thank you, Your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION

15

BY MR. POLLACK:

16

Q.

Good afternoon, Mr. W.

17

A.

Thank you.

18

Q.

As I understand it, you were the case officer for Merlin

19

from approximately July of 1997 to approximately November of

20

1998; is that correct?

21

A.

Yeah, I think December '98.

22

Q.

Okay.

23

Merlin's case officer that you even had these plans or

24

schematics available, correct?

25

A.

Good afternoon.

And it wasn't until the very end of your tenure as

That's correct.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 260 of 281 PageID# 4977
Zach W. - Cross

260

1

Q.

So during the bulk of your tenure, the year-plus leading

2

up to that point --

3

A.

Right.

4

Q.

-- what you were doing with Merlin is you were dangling

5

him in front of the Iranians, correct?

6

A.

Um-hum.

7

Q.

Building his legend is his story, correct?

8

A.

Yeah, yeah.

9

Q.

And specifically doing things that might call to the

We were, we were building his legend.

His story.

10

attention of the Iranians his existence, correct?

11

A.

That was the goal.

12

Q.

That was the goal.

13

And so you were helping him, for example, in sending

14

e-mail messages or letters by e-mail to Iranian scientists,

15

correct?

16

A.

Correct.

17

Q.

Or Iranian scholars?

18

A.

Or institutions.

19

Q.

Or Iranian institutions, scholars in the nuclear field,

20

correct?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

And in those e-mails, Merlin would explain somewhat

23

cryptically, but explain that he had some information that he

24

thought might be of interest to the people that he was sending

25

these e-mails or letters to, correct?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 261 of 281 PageID# 4978
Zach W. - Cross

261

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

And that he would be interested in meeting with somebody

3

to, to talk about the information that he had, correct?

4

A.

Correct.

5

Q.

And you also assisted him in, in identifying academic

6

conferences that he could go to where there might be scientists

7

or people in the nuclear field, correct?

8

A.

9

That's, that's certainly a viable idea and sounds right.

I, I think so.

I don't recall sending him on any.
I

10

don't, I don't remember anything.

11

Q.

You just don't specifically recall one way or the other?

12

A.

Well, I -- that sounds right, but I, I'm reluctant to say

13

that entirely because without the actual material in hand yet,

14

we might have been a little, been a little premature.

15

all.

16

Q.

So in terms of actually sending him out to conferences?

17

A.

Yeah.

I don't remember doing that.

18

Q.

Okay.

But certainly during your tenure, you were

19

assisting him in sending out communications to Iranian

20

scientists and scholars?

21

A.

For him to do it, yes.

22

Q.

Yes, okay.

23
24
25

That's

I'm not suggesting not, but that's all.

I'd like to introduce Government Exhibit 132, which
is chapter 9.

Does anyone have an objection to that?

MR. TRUMP:

No.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 262 of 281 PageID# 4979
Zach W. - Cross
1

BY MR. POLLACK:

2

Q.

3

the screen?

And if I could -- if we could go ahead and call that up on

4
5

THE COURT:

Well, it's a large exhibit.

You'll have

to give a page number to make it make any sense.

6
7

262

MR. POLLACK:
to page 200.

Thank you, Your Honor.

8

THE COURT:

9

from the government.

10

Specifically, I'm going to be referring

All right, 132.

No objection, obviously,

That's in.

(Government's Exhibit No. 132 was received in

11

evidence.)

12

BY MR. POLLACK:

13

Q.

14

actually read chapter 9 of State of War, correct?

15

A.

16

agent and asked if I'd read it.

17

"Well could you?"

Now, Mr. W., you indicated that you did at some point

I don't -- yeah.

18

I did when I was approached by a special
I said no, and they said,

And I, I did, I guess, yeah.

19

Q.

Okay.

And to be clear, when you say "special agent," that

20

would be the FBI special agent, Special Agent Hunt, correct?

21

A.

Right.

22

Q.

Who was investigating the leak to Mr. Risen, correct?

23

A.

Correct.

24

Q.

She talked to you and in the course of her investigation

25

told you about this chapter and encouraged you to actually read

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 263 of 281 PageID# 4980
Zach W. - Cross

263

1

it, correct?

2

A.

Of her official duties, yes, encouraged me to read it.

3

Q.

Okay.

4

full paragraph on page 200.

5

And what I'd like to do is refer you to the bottom

THE COURT:

And, ladies and gentlemen, the numbers

6

you see in the left-hand column do not exist in the actual

7

book.

8

is one change from the book.

9

BY MR. POLLACK:

They've been put in there for ease of reference, so that
All right.

10

Q.

And this paragraph says that at the case officer's urging,

11

the Russian started sending messages to Iranian scientists,

12

scholars, and even Iranian diplomats stationed at the IAEA in

13

Vienna, and "IAEA" stands for the International Atomic Energy

14

Association; is that correct?

15

A.

Um-hum.

16

THE COURT:

17

THE WITNESS:

I'm sorry, you have to say yes or no.
Yes.

18

BY MR. POLLACK:

19

Q.

Which was headquartered in Vienna?

20

A.

Which was headquartered in Vienna.

21

Q.

"In his e-mails, he would explain that he had information

22

of great interest to Iran and that he was seeking a meeting

23

with someone who could hear him out.

24

designed to be playfully intriguing but not quite revealing.

25

Just enough to prompt a response."

The messages were

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 264 of 281 PageID# 4981
Zach W. - Cross

264

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

And you are the case officer that is being referenced in

3

that paragraph, are you not?

4

MR. TRUMP:

Objection, Your Honor.

5

THE COURT:

I don't -- well --

6

MR. TRUMP:

How does --

7

THE COURT:

How would he know?

8

THE WITNESS:

9
10

I don't know.

BY MR. POLLACK:
Q.

Is that -- let me rephrase the question.

11

THE COURT:

Sustained.

12

BY MR. POLLACK:

13

Q.

14

were working on with Merlin as his case officer?

15

A.

16

detailed.

17

Q.

Okay.

18

A.

This seems a little bit more precise in its targeting than

19

we were at the phase when I was in the case, just saying.

20

Q.

Does that sound like a general description of what you

To some degree, it does, but it seems a little bit more

Okay.

21

Now, at some -- well, let me strike that.
THE COURT:

Do you want that on the screen?

22

right.

23

BY MR. POLLACK:

24

Q.

25

back -- let me ask you a question first.

No, all

Well, if we can keep the chapter up, I'd like to go

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 265 of 281 PageID# 4982
Zach W. - Cross

265

1

Thank you, Your Honor.

2

On your direct, Mr. Trump asked you about the plans

3

that were first available, the product that was first available

4

and given to Merlin at the meeting in San Francisco.

5

A.

Yeah.

6

Q.

And you referred to those plans in your testimony as plans

7

for a "firing set."

8

A.

I think so, yeah.

9

Q.

The phrase "firing set," was that a phrase that you used

Do you remember that?

10

to describe the piece of equipment that we're talking about?

11

A.

I believe so.

12

Q.

And was that also a phrase that you heard Merlin use in

13

describing the plans after he saw them?

14

A.

You know, I suppose so.

I don't think we ever -- I don't,

15

I don't recall specifically.

There is a really very short time

16

between the period on the 14th of November, when he sees the

17

device for the first time.

18

together.

19

questions, and we have one more meeting.

20

We have one administrative meeting

We still don't have the answers yet on his

So I'm reluctant to answer your question fully.

21

not because I don't want to say yes.

22

how we responded to it.

23

It's

I just don't -- it wasn't

Remember, when we spoke about things even together,

24

we didn't speak about things in a lot of specifics.

25

to keep things fairly generic.

We tried

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 266 of 281 PageID# 4983
Zach W. - Cross
1

266

In the meeting that I had with, with Mr. Sterling

2

and, and Merlin, we were at a restaurant, so we're not going to

3

be talking about firing sets.

4

Q.

5

tenure drew to a close, you had the meeting in San Francisco,

6

correct?

7

A.

Yeah.

8

Q.

Then you had a follow-up meeting just with Merlin,

9

correct?

Okay.

Let me see if I understand that.

You -- as your

10

A.

Just with Merlin.

11

Q.

And then you had a meeting with Merlin and Mr. Sterling?

12

A.

Correct.

13

Q.

And then you were done?

14

A.

And then I was done.

15

Q.

Okay.

16

interaction that you had with Merlin after the plans became

17

available, you can't recall precisely how Merlin referred to

18

them?

19

A.

I can't.

20

Q.

But "firing set" is a phrase that you would have used?

21

A.

That's what we were talking about from the schematic, as I

22

recall.

23

Q.

24

like to go to page 195, and if we can go to the last full

25

paragraph?

And given that relatively brief level of

And now if we can go ahead and put 132 back up, and I'd

It talks about the technical designs for a TB 480

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 267 of 281 PageID# 4984
Zach W. - Cross

267

1

high-voltage block, otherwise known as a "firing set."

2

And "firing set" is in quotation marks, correct?

3

A.

Um-hum.

4

THE COURT:

5

THE WITNESS:

You have to say yes or no.
Yes.

I'm so sorry.

6

BY MR. POLLACK:

7

Q.

8

talks about the blueprints, calls these the blueprints for a

9

nuclear bomb.

And immediately above that in the partial paragraph, it

Do you see that?

10

A.

I do see that.

11

Q.

And the book, this chapter variously refers to them as the

12

blueprints for a nuclear bomb, nuclear blueprints, or just

13

blueprints.

14

A.

Okay.

15

Q.

Do you recall yourself, did you ever refer to them as

16

blueprints?

17

A.

I don't remember ever saying they were blueprints.

18

Q.

Do you recall Merlin referring to them as blueprints?

19

A.

No, I don't think so.

20

Q.

Now, at some point before -- if we can call up, if the

21

government has no objection, Government Exhibit 7, which I do

22

not believe is presently in, but I move its admission.

23
24
25

Is that -Yes.

THE COURT:
exhibit.

I don't recall one way or another.

Any objection?

It can't be, so it's in.

Again, it's a government

All right.

(Government's Exhibit No. 7 was received in

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 268 of 281 PageID# 4985
Zach W. - Cross
1

268

evidence.)

2

MR. POLLACK:

Okay.

Thank you, Your Honor.

3

Q.

This is a cable, Mr. W., that's written in February of

4

1998, correct?

5

A.

Yes, it is.

6

Q.

And that's during your tenure as the case officer for

7

Merlin, correct?

8

A.

Yes, it is.

9

Q.

That is before Mr. Sterling has a relationship with

10

Merlin, correct?

11

A.

Correct.

12

Q.

Okay.

13

paragraph 2, the fourth line refers to firing set, correct?

14

A.

Correct.

15

Q.

The second-to-the-last line in paragraph 2 refers

16

to firing set, correct?

17

A.

Okay.

18

Q.

And in paragraph 3, the third line refers to the firing

19

set experts, correct?

20

A.

Correct.

21

Q.

And two lines later, "make a workable firing set,"

22

correct?

23

A.

Correct.

24

Q.

And the second-to-last line from the bottom of the page

25

talks about a viable firing set, correct?

And if you'd look at the paragraph that is numbered

Yes, yes.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 269 of 281 PageID# 4986
Zach W. - Cross

269

1

A.

Correct.

2

Q.

Paragraph 4 in the fourth line refers to a firing set,

3

correct?

4

A.

Correct.

5

MR. POLLACK:

6

THE COURT:

And now if we could go to Exhibit 13?
All right, that's also in.

7

BY MR. POLLACK:

8

Q.

9

that is the cable that talks about the meeting in San

Exhibit 13 is the cable that Mr. Trump discussed with you

10

Francisco, correct?

11

A.

Correct.

12

Q.

And you had indicated that you were the author of that

13

cable, correct?

14

A.

Correct.

15

Q.

And in this cable -- well, would Mr. Sterling have had

16

access to this cable?

17

A.

Yes, he would have.

18

Q.

This is really the first meeting during his tenure as the

19

case officer, right?

20

A.

Correct.

21

Q.

Okay.

22

paragraph 5 on the second page -- if we can go down a little

23

further in that paragraph?

And in this cable, which is authored by you, in

24

Do you see where it says in the third line in the

25

paragraph that starts "Overall," you use the phrase "firing

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 270 of 281 PageID# 4987
Zach W. - Cross

270

1

set," correct?

2

A.

Right.

3

Q.

Okay.

4

paragraph 2, you talk about -- this is not -- yeah.

5

But if we go to the beginning of the cable,

MR. MAC MAHON:

One second.

6

BY MR. POLLACK:

7

Q.

8

line, it talks about "fire set plans," correct?

9

A.

Right.

10

Q.

Not "firing."

11

A.

Right.

12

Q.

And in the next paragraph, paragraph 3, lines 3 and 4, the

13

group showed M the fire, fire set plans, not firing, correct?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

And four lines later, again it says "fire set plans,"

16

correct?

17

A.

Correct.

18

Q.

Continuing on the next page, same paragraph, second

19

line, "fire set plans," right?

20

A.

So in the first -- I'm sorry, in paragraph 2, on the third

"Fire," right?

Um-hum.

21

THE COURT:

22

THE WITNESS:

Yes?
Yes.

I'm so sorry.

23

BY MR. POLLACK:

24

Q.

25

says "fire set plans," correct?

Yes.

And finally, paragraph 5, fifth line from the bottom, it

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 271 of 281 PageID# 4988
Zach W. - Cross

271

1

A.

Okay.

2

Q.

So while you use the phrase "firing set" and you use it

3

once in this cable, repeatedly in this cable, the first cable

4

that deals with Mr. Sterling's involvement, the phrase that's

5

typically use is "fire set," correct?

6

A.

Um-hum, yes.

7

Q.

And -- by the way, in paragraph 6 --

8

A.

Um --

9

Yes.

Yes.

THE COURT:

10

BY MR. POLLACK:

11

Q.

There's no question pending.

In paragraph 6 --

12

MR. TRUMP:

13

MR. POLLACK:

Paragraph 6 of what?
We're still on Exhibit 13.

14

Q.

This talks about the, the social outing, the car trip to

15

Wine Country, correct?

16

A.

Um-hum, yes.

17

Q.

The fact that there was an outing to Wine Country, that

18

was something that would have been known not just to the people

19

who were at the meeting in San Francisco but also to people

20

back at headquarters that received this cable?

21

A.

22

this cable.

23

Q.

Sure.

24

A.

Yes.

25

Q.

Sure.

That would have been known to them after they received

After they read the cable, yes.
And anybody at any point who had access to this

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 272 of 281 PageID# 4989
Zach W. - Cross

272

1

cable after they read this would be aware of that fact, right?

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

Now, prior to that meeting in San Francisco, you were told

4

that Mr. Sterling was going to be taking over for you, correct,

5

that a decision had been made that he would be the next case

6

officer?

7

A.

Yes.

8

Q.

And it was conveyed to you, was it not, that there were

9

some concerns that Mr. Sterling's race might complicate his

10

handling of Merlin?

11

A.

12

would respond.

13

the asset, we didn't, we didn't know.

14

the case.

15

Q.

Well, the thought was we had no idea how Merlin would,
The agency didn't have an issue with it, but
It turned out not to be

Now, if we can go to Exhibit 14?

16

And this is the cable that was from headquarters that

17

was following up on some of the questions that Merlin raised in

18

San Francisco, correct?

19

A.

Correct, yes.

20

Q.

And again, Mr. Sterling is involved now in the program.

21

He would have been a recipient of this communication?

22

A.

23

would have been aware of it, yeah, yeah.

24

Q.

25

paragraph, it talks about anonymous fire set designer, right?

I'm not sure he would have been a recipient of it, but he

And in paragraph 2 of Exhibit 14, in the middle of the

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 273 of 281 PageID# 4990
Zach W. - Cross

273

1

A.

Fire set.

2

Q.

Not firing set, correct?

3

A.

Correct.

4

Q.

And the last line of that paragraph again talks about fire

5

set, correct?

6

A.

I don't see it.

7

Yes.

8

Q.

Okay.

And paragraph 4, if we can go down, again same

9

exhibit, 14, talks about the fire set team, correct?

10

A.

Correct.

11

Q.

And then Government Exhibit 15 is the cable that you wrote

12

documenting the follow-up meeting, not the one that was just

13

you and Merlin but the one that was you, Merlin, and

14

Mr. Sterling, correct?

15

A.

Correct.

16

Q.

And if we can go to paragraph 3 of Exhibit 15, starting in

17

the second line, it talks about the fire set schematic,

18

correct?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

Fourth line, fire set, correct?

21

A.

Correct.

22

Q.

Sixth line, fire set, correct?

23

A.

Correct.

24

Q.

If we can go to the next page of Exhibit 15, the

25

third-to-last line in that first partial paragraph, fire set,

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 274 of 281 PageID# 4991
Zach W. - Redirect

274

1

right?

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

And finally, paragraph 7 of the same cable about the

4

meeting with you, Merlin, and Mr. Sterling, middle of that

5

paragraph, again, fire set, correct?

6

A.

Correct.

7
8

MR. POLLACK:
questions.

9

Mr. W., I don't have any other

Thank you.
THE COURT:

10

Is there any redirect?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION

11

BY MR. TRUMP:

12

Q.

Do you recall questions about Exhibit 6?

13

THE COURT:

What question are you directing him to?

14

BY MR. TRUMP:

15

Q.

Exhibit 6, do you have that in front of you?

16

A.

I do.

17

Q.

That was a cable to the New York office, correct?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

And 7 was also a cable to the New York office?

20

A.

Exhibit 7?

21

Q.

Yes.

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

Same with Exhibit 8?

24

A.

Yes.

25

Q.

So when Mr. Sterling, the defendant, took over from you as

Yes.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 275 of 281 PageID# 4992
Zach W. - Redirect

275

1

the case officer, he has access to all these cables, correct?

2

A.

Oh, yes.

3

Q.

And he may have also had access to them at

4

Counterproliferation, correct?

5

A.

6

you'd do the background.

7

diligence.

8
9
10

Yes.

We call it reading in, so you'd be, you'd be --

MR. POLLACK:

Your Honor, I'm going to move to strike

that unless there's a foundation as to whether he has actual
knowledge of that, as opposed to whether he's guessing.

11

THE COURT:

12

THE WITNESS:

13

THE COURT:

14
15

You'd do the sort of your due

Lay a foundation.

How do you know that?

How do I know?
How do you know that he would have had

access to these cables from the Counterproliferation desk?
THE WITNESS:

Well, when he was identified as the

16

officer, it is standard operating procedure for the officer who

17

is taking over to read the background of the case, just as I

18

had done when Laurie D. had done the case.

19

Now, I didn't read all the way back to the history of

20

the beginning of the case, but I certainly read sufficient

21

background.

22

have been given access to it for the very purpose of making

23

them capable of handling those responsibilities.

24
25

Where that was, I don't know, but the person would

THE COURT:

That's a sufficient foundation.

There's

no objection there.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 276 of 281 PageID# 4993
Zach W. - Redirect

276

1

BY MR. TRUMP:

2

Q.

3

arrived at the New York office, these are cables that are part

4

of this limited access program in the cabinet and available to

5

the defendant?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

Even the ones that predated his official tenure as case

8

officer?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

And let's go to Exhibit 13.

11

in the second paragraph, you used the term "fire set," right?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

This is a cable you wrote, correct?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

And you were shown some other cables you wrote in which

16

you used the term "firing set," right?

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

Were these terms interchangeable as far as you were

19

concerned?

20

A.

As far as I was concerned, they were.

21

Q.

And do you know of any technical distinction between the

22

terminology "firing set" or "fire set"?

23

A.

Either through his position at headquarters or when he

They are the history of the case.

And just to illustrate this,

I don't know of any.

24

MR. TRUMP:

The Court's indulgence?

25

THE COURT:

Yes, sir.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 277 of 281 PageID# 4994
Zach W. - Redirect
1

MR. TRUMP:

277
I'll just check my notes for one second,

2

Your Honor.

3

Q.

4

things that brought him to the attention of the Iranians,

5

correct?

6

A.

Yes, that was the goal.

7

Q.

And that was -- the goal was to get the Iranians

8

interested in this guy who was a real-life Russian nuclear

9

engineer, correct?

You were asked some questions about directing Merlin to do

10

A.

Correct.

11

Q.

But there was no attempt to make it known to the Iranians

12

that he was connected to the CIA?

13

A.

No, there was no attempt to do that.

14

MR. TRUMP:

That's all I have.

15

THE COURT:

Any recross?

16

MR. POLLACK:

17

THE COURT:

18

No, Your Honor.
All right, I assume no one's going to

call Mr. W. again in the trial; is that correct?

19

MR. TRUMP:

I certainly hope not.

20

THE COURT:

All right.

21

a witness.

Thank you for your testimony.

22

THE WITNESS:

23

THE COURT:

24
25

Then, sir, you're excused as

Thank you very much.
You may leave.
(Witness excused.)

THE COURT:

And, ladies and gentlemen, you've been

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 278 of 281 PageID# 4995
278
1

very patient as a jury.

2

than you had.

3

of the logistics, but I'm going to let you get 15 minutes

4

early, out a little bit earlier.

5

I normally give my jurors more breaks

We ran a little bit out of sync in part because

We need to start tomorrow morning at 9:30, and we

6

can't start until all 14 of you are here.

7

have any weather issues tomorrow morning, and fortunately,

8

almost all of you live pretty near the courthouse, I don't have

9

people way out in the boonies this time, but if there is any

10
11

I don't think we

weather, please plan accordingly so that you're here on time.
And remember my cautions about do not do any

12

investigation about this case.

13

chapter 9 as an exhibit to, so that you can read it for

14

yourselves when you're deliberating, but don't go out and try

15

to buy the book or download it or anything like that.

16

You are going to get a copy of

Just go home, get a good night's sleep, a little

17

exercise if you want, get your minds off the case so you come

18

back fresh tomorrow morning.

19

bring sweaters or jackets with you.

20

courtroom varies dramatically, and I'd rather have it cool than

21

hot because you'll fall asleep if it's too hot, but I don't

22

want anybody getting sick.

23

attendance today.

24
25

I do recommend you may want to
The temperature in the

So anyway, thank you for your

We're going to stay in session.
to take up with counsel.

I have a few matters

Just leave your notebooks there.

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 279 of 281 PageID# 4996
279
1

We'll have everything back for you tomorrow morning.

2

start tomorrow morning.

3

So 9:30

Thank you.
(Jury out.)

4

THE COURT:

Now, obviously, unlike most cases, you

5

can't leave all your exhibits in the courtroom.

6

that's classified needs to be taken care of by Ms. Gunning and

7

her folks.

8

know, by, say, 9:20 at the latest so that we don't start late.

9

We'll need to get it up here tomorrow morning, you

Mr. Pollack had one issue he wanted to raise after

10

the government's opening statement.

11

the record right now.

12

Anything

MR. POLLACK:

Why don't you go put it on

Yes, Your Honor.

As I'd indicated

13

earlier, I wanted to preserve the issue that the government in

14

its opening statement did not establish -- even if everything

15

that they said in their opening statement they're able to

16

prove, did not establish venue for the charges, and that is a

17

basis, I believe, for a motion for a judgment of acquittal

18

prior to putting on any, any evidence.

19

Court to rule on that now, but I want to preserve the issue for

20

the record.

21

THE COURT:

All right.

I don't expect the

You've made the point, but

22

again, I never rule on a motion like that.

23

this case, you know, have the evidence presented, and you can

24

file your motions down the road.

25

We're going to have

But you've made the motion for the record, and that

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 280 of 281 PageID# 4997
280
1

is what it is.

It puts the government on notice.

2

point, do some legal research on that issue, all right?

3

MR. POLLACK:

4

THE COURT:

At some

Thank you, Your Honor.
Anything else that we need to address

5

tonight?

For tomorrow morning, I understand that you will have

6

that first witness on, the short witness, you had indicated

7

earlier, right?

Yes.

8

MR. OLSHAN:

9

SPECIAL AGENT HUNT:

10

THE COURT:

That's correct.
Yes.

All right, that's fine.

And I think the

11

system is working reasonably well with the witnesses.

12

want to make sure we have everybody here who we need, so if we

13

run -- if we move the pace a bit tomorrow and we get ahead of

14

your schedule, don't leave us without witnesses, all right?

15

the burden is on the government to make sure you've got your

16

people lined up.

17

Anything else we need to address?

18

MR. OLSHAN:

19

Again, I

So

I just had a logistical question, Your

Honor.

20

THE COURT:

21

MR. OLSHAN:

Yes.
It is a bit tight back here in front of

22

the screen, so would it be possible maybe for us to put some of

23

the extra binders on the floor against the table so we can get

24

some of the clutter out of way, mainly for Mr. Francisco's

25

benefit?

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595

 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 487 Filed 08/17/15 Page 281 of 281 PageID# 4998
281
1

THE COURT:

I'm sorry about that.

No, I think we're

2

going to leave things just as they are, but again, anything

3

that's classified can't stay in here overnight because the

4

courtroom is open to janitors and other folks who don't have

5

clearance, all right?

6

MR. OLSHAN:

7

THE COURT:

8
9

Just thought I'd ask.
All right.

Thank you.

All right, we'll recess court

for the evening.
(Recess from 5:49 p.m., until 9:30 a.m., January 14, 2015.)

10
11
12
13

CERTIFICATE OF THE REPORTER
I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript of
the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.

14
15
16

/s/
Anneliese J. Thomson

17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595