Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 1 of 254 PageID# 4999 282 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA ALEXANDRIA DIVISION UNITED STATES OF AMERICA vs. JEFFREY ALEXANDER STERLING, Defendant. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Criminal No. 1:10cr485 Alexandria, Virginia January 14, 2015 9:35 a.m. TRANSCRIPT OF JURY TRIAL BEFORE THE HONORABLE LEONIE M. BRINKEMA UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE VOLUME II APPEARANCES: FOR THE GOVERNMENT: JAMES L. TRUMP, AUSA DENNIS M. FITZPATRICK, AUSA United States Attorney's Office 2100 Jamieson Avenue Alexandria, VA 22314 and ERIC G. OLSHAN, Deputy Chief Public Integrity Section of the Criminal Division United States Department of Justice 1400 New York Avenue, N.W. Suite 12100 Washington, D.C. 20005 FOR THE DEFENDANT: EDWARD B. MAC MAHON, JR., ESQ. Law Office of Edward B. MacMahon, Jr. 107 East Washington Street P.O. Box 25 Middleburg, VA 20118 (APPEARANCES CONT'D. ON FOLLOWING PAGE) (Pages 282 - 535) COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION OF STENOGRAPHIC NOTES Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 2 of 254 PageID# 5000 283 1 APPEARANCES: (Cont'd.) 2 FOR THE DEFENDANT: BARRY J. POLLACK, ESQ. MIA P. HAESSLY, ESQ. Miller & Chevalier Chartered 655 - 15th Street, N.W. Suite 900 Washington, D.C. 20005-5701 CLASSIFIED INFORMATION SECURITY OFFICERS: CHRISTINE E. GUNNING MAURA PETERSON ALSO PRESENT: GERARD FRANCISCO SA ASHLEY HUNT JENNIFER MULLIN, ESQ. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER: ANNELIESE J. THOMSON, RDR, CRR U.S. District Court, Fifth Floor 401 Courthouse Square Alexandria, VA 22314 (703)299-8595 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 3 of 254 PageID# 5001 284 1 I N D E X 2 3 DIRECT CROSS Mrs. Merlin 286 295 Walter C. 299 328 Robert S. 340 511 REDIRECT RECROSS WITNESSES ON BEHALF OF THE GOVERNMENT: 4 5 335 336 6 7 8 EXHIBITS 9 MARKED RECEIVED 10 GOVERNMENT'S: 11 Nos. 5 thru 25 357 12 26 324 27 357 28 324 29 thru 33, 35 thru 38 357 39 thru 43 462 44 thru 47 357 103 473 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 DEFENDANT'S: 21 No. 1 517 22 2 523 23 24 25 Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 4 of 254 PageID# 5002 285 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 (Defendant and Jury present.) 3 THE CLERK: Criminal Case 10-485, United States of 4 America v. Jeffrey Alexander Sterling. 5 note their appearances for the record. 6 7 MR. TRUMP: Good morning, Your Honor. MR. OLSHAN: Eric Olshan for the United States. 9 morning, Your Honor. 10 THE COURT: 11 MR. FITZPATRICK: States. Dennis Fitzpatrick for the United Good morning. THE COURT: 14 MR. POLLACK: Good morning. Good morning, Your Honor. 15 Pollack on behalf of Mr. Sterling. 16 MR. MAC MAHON: Barry Edward MacMahon for Mr. Sterling, Your Honor. 18 MS. HAESSLY: 19 THE COURT: 20 And good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Mia Haessly for Mr. Sterling. Good morning. Thank you 21 for being a superb jury. 22 to start a few minutes late -- even with the weather. 23 you who live in Fairfax County, schools were closed again 24 today. 25 Good Good morning. 13 17 Jim Trump on behalf of the United States. 8 12 Would counsel please You're essentially on time -- we had Those of So I really appreciate your being here on time. I just want to make sure, did any of you have any Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 5 of 254 PageID# 5003 Mrs. Merlin - Direct 286 1 difficulties last night in complying with my instructions? 2 Because there were articles in The Post about the case, just 3 short ones. 4 (Jurors shaking heads.) 5 THE COURT: Great. Well, just continue to, again, 6 avoid any of that kind of contact, and let me know if for some 7 reason you inadvertently bump into anything. 8 9 We're going to start with another witness. The government is ready to proceed? 10 MR. TRUMP: Yes, Your Honor. 11 THE COURT: And I understand that there are various 12 logistics and other reasons why counsel occasionally have to 13 leave the courtroom while the case is in progress. 14 down that hall, and it's no problem because I recognize there's 15 a lot of going back and forth, all right? Just do so 16 Mr. Trump, your next witness? 17 MRS. MERLIN, GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, AFFIRMED 18 DIRECT EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. TRUMP: 20 Q. 21 clearly as you can into that microphone so everyone can hear 22 you? 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. I'm going to refer to you as Mrs. Merlin. 25 familiar with a book called State of War, written by James Good morning. May I ask you to speak as loudly and Okay? Are you Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 6 of 254 PageID# 5004 Mrs. Merlin - Direct 1 Risen? 2 A. 287 Yes, I know. 3 THE COURT: 4 speak up much louder than that. 5 Mrs. Merlin, you're going to have to THE WITNESS: Okay. 6 BY MR. TRUMP: 7 Q. Is the answer yes? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Is your husband the Russian engineer who had worked at 10 Arzamas 16, as depicted in that book? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. I'm going to refer to him as your husband, okay? 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. Please don't refer to him by name. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. Do you, do you now live in the United States? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. About when, just about when did you come to the United 19 States? 20 A. I came to the country beginning of the '90s. 21 Q. The 1990s? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. And you came from the former Soviet Union? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Were either you or your husband defectors? I will try. I live in the United States. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 7 of 254 PageID# 5005 Mrs. Merlin - Direct 1 A. No, we are not. 288 We was refugees. 2 THE COURT: 3 THE WITNESS: 4 THE COURT: I'm sorry, you were what? We was refugees. Refugees. 5 BY MR. TRUMP: 6 Q. 7 you approached by the CIA? 8 A. 9 months. 10 Q. At some point after you arrived in the United States, were Yes. We was approached by CIA but not just in the first Little bit later, yes. And what were you -- excuse me. 11 Did you have a professional career back in the Soviet 12 Union? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What were you doing when -- what were you doing in the 15 United States when you were approached by the CIA? 16 you doing for a living? 17 A. 18 just cleaning, working in cleaning houses, very primitive jobs. 19 Q. 20 children? 21 A. Yes, with the children and parents. 22 Q. Eventually, did you agree to work with the CIA? 23 A. Not in the beginning. 24 meetings, we agreed to work with CIA. 25 Q. We both have a professional career. What were In the beginning, when we -- we do very, like, easy jobs, And did you move to the United States with, with your Just a little while after few And the same with your husband eventually? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 8 of 254 PageID# 5006 Mrs. Merlin - Direct 289 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you meet a number of CIA case officers? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you recall any of their names? 5 A. I remember the most, you know, pleasant people always is 6 like Max, Ed, Bob. 7 Q. You knew these people by their first names? 8 A. Yeah, not by their last names. 9 Q. Now, when your husband was working with the CIA, did he We meet some, yeah. 10 provide you with the details of what he was doing? 11 A. 12 job, he don't supposed to provide me with information, and I 13 got used to. 14 that it is not mandatory me to be involved in know the details. 15 Q. 16 with CIA officers? 17 A. Yes, of course. 18 Q. But you did not know the details of what he was doing? 19 A. Never know details. 20 Q. Do you recall a trip to San Francisco? 21 A. Yes, I remember. 22 Q. Do you know when approximately? 23 A. Approximately it was in, I think, 2001. 24 sure about the date. 25 the memory. No, never. He never did it in Russia because he had such Then he's involved with such kind of activity So just to be clear, you knew he was meeting and working It was long time ago. I am not exactly I did not keep in Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 9 of 254 PageID# 5007 Mrs. Merlin - Direct 290 1 Q. Did you go with your husband? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. Had you ever been to San Francisco before? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you understand the purpose of the trip was for your 6 husband to meet with CIA in San Francisco? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Again, did you know why? 9 A. Yes. He explained to me then he needs some translation 10 technical. He had very good technical background, and he needs 11 some translation in some, given some information to say about 12 people he have to meet. 13 Q. 14 the CIA? 15 A. Yeah, um-hum. 16 Q. Is that yes? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. When you got to San Francisco, did you meet with people 19 from the CIA? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you recall who you met? 22 A. It was Jeff; it was Max; it was Bob. 23 Q. And the person you know as Jeff, is he in the courtroom 24 today? 25 A. I didn't know details, just, you know. You thought he was translating some technical matters for Yes. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 10 of 254 PageID# 5008 Mrs. Merlin - Direct 1 2 THE COURT: 291 All right, is there any issue about identification? 3 MR. MAC MAHON: 4 THE COURT: No, Your Honor. All right. 5 BY MR. TRUMP: 6 Q. Was that the first time you ever met Jeff? 7 A. Yes, this is the first time. 8 Q. Is that also the only time? 9 A. This is the only time. 10 Q. While in San Francisco, did you socialize briefly with, 11 with Jeff? 12 A. 13 around San Francisco, and it was, yeah, have socialize. 14 Q. 15 husband? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did he ever tell you what those meetings were about? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you recall a trip to Vienna, Austria? 20 A. Yes, I do. 21 Q. Was that after San Francisco? 22 A. It was after San Francisco. 23 Q. Again, roughly, do you recall when? 24 A. Roughly, it was in maybe a few months after San Francisco. 25 Q. And again, did this trip have something to do with your Yeah. We went some, you know, in some places to show us Did you attend the meetings with the CIA with your Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 11 of 254 PageID# 5009 Mrs. Merlin - Direct 292 1 husband's work for the CIA? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you know what again? 4 A. Again, the same thing. 5 visited San Francisco what he have to do in Vienna, because I 6 thought it is the same thing, it continue the same, you know, 7 work. 8 Q. About how long was your trip to Vienna? 9 A. I don't recall exactly the days, but it was a short one. Even we did not discuss after I 10 It was, like, maybe for a week, but I don't recall exactly how 11 many days. 12 Q. Did you enjoy your trip? 13 A. Yeah, we enjoyed the trip. 14 Q. Did your husband appear to enjoy the trip? 15 A. He enjoyed a lot. 16 Q. At any time during the trip, did he appear concerned or 17 upset or worried about anything? 18 A. No, not at all. 19 Q. Did he express anything like that to you? 20 A. No, never. 21 Q. After the trip, did he tell you anything about what he had 22 done? 23 A. 24 like, family discussions but nothing about his work. 25 Q. No. We never discuss his job what he does. We have, Now, did you read the book State of War when it was Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 12 of 254 PageID# 5010 Mrs. Merlin - Direct 293 1 published in 2006? 2 A. 3 um-hum. 4 Q. And what was your reaction when you read the book? 5 A. I can say that I was shocked. 6 Q. Were you also concerned? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And what was your concern? 9 A. My concern was then somebody not what, who I want to can Yes. After they told me it's published, I read it, My concern was very high-level concern. 10 read the book and find out about me and my family and my 11 husband, if we can be approached by KGB, and my family can be 12 in danger, my kids can be in danger, and my husband can be in 13 danger because the information which is in the book can be very 14 useful for KGB. 15 Q. 16 the work you had done for the CIA? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did they learn about that through the book? 19 A. After the book was published, yeah, my older child was 20 find out from the book, yeah. 21 can say then it's not too many people left this city in Russia 22 we were from, and it's not too many people in the United States 23 who is from Arzamas 16, and they can find out who we are, and 24 there was very concern. 25 Now, did you or your husband ever tell your children about And if you read the book, you I was just shocked when I read how my husband was Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 13 of 254 PageID# 5011 Mrs. Merlin - Direct 294 1 represented in this book. 2 Q. And do you know anyone by the name of James Risen? 3 A. I start to know about Jim Risen after reading the book. 4 Q. Do you know personally? 5 A. In person, I never saw him in person. 6 Q. So you never talked to him? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Have you ever talked to anyone other than the CIA or the 9 FBI about your relationship with the CIA? 10 A. No, never. 11 Q. To your knowledge, has your husband ever spoken with James 12 Risen? 13 14 MS. HAESSLY: lack of foundation. 15 16 I'm going to object, Your Honor, to the THE COURT: About whether her husband has ever spoken to Risen? 17 MS. HAESSLY: 18 MR. TRUMP: I said to her knowledge. 19 THE COURT: Yes, overruled. 20 BY MR. TRUMP: 21 Q. 22 Risen? 23 A. 24 before, no. 25 Q. Yes. To your knowledge, has your husband ever spoken with James Never. He doesn't know -- did not know James Risen To your knowledge, has he ever spoken to any reporters? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 14 of 254 PageID# 5012 Mrs. Merlin - Cross 295 1 A. No. 2 Q. And again, to your knowledge, has he ever spoken to anyone 3 other than the CIA or the FBI about his work with the CIA? 4 A. No, never happened. 5 MR. TRUMP: The Court's indulgence? 6 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 7 MR. TRUMP: That's all I have, Your Honor. 8 THE COURT: All right, cross-examination? 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION 10 BY MS. HAESSLY: 11 Q. 12 I'm one of the attorneys for Mr. Sterling. Good morning, Mrs. Merlin. 13 THE COURT: My name is Mia Haessly, and Counsel, you need to speak up, too. 14 right. 15 BY MS. HAESSLY: 16 Q. Have you ever been interviewed by the FBI? 17 A. By FBI interviewed? 18 "interview." 19 Q. 20 this case? 21 A. No. 22 Q. And you, you testified that you made a trip to San 23 Francisco. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And during this trip, you participated in some social All I don't know what you mean under Have they ever met with you and asked you questions about Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 15 of 254 PageID# 5013 Mrs. Merlin - Cross 296 1 outings with your husband? 2 A. Can you repeat the question? 3 Q. When you were in San Francisco, you participated in some 4 social events with your husband; is that correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Do you recall a trip that you took to Wine Country? 7 A. Yes, I remember. 8 Q. And who was present during that trip? 9 A. Jeff was, was present; Bob was present; and other people I 10 don't remember. I remember these two people. 11 Q. So you recall that Jeff and Bob were present? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. Your husband was also present? 14 A. Yeah, of course. 15 Q. And you believe that other people may have been present? 16 A. No, I don't recall it. 17 Q. Do you recall where in Wine Country you went to? 18 Sonoma County? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Mrs. Merlin, you testified that you've read the book State 21 of War. 22 A. No. Was it It was, I think, Sonoma, yeah. Um-hum. 23 THE COURT: Ma'am, you have to say yes or no. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, I read the book. 25 MS. HAESSLY: Can we -- Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 16 of 254 PageID# 5014 Mrs. Merlin - Cross 1 2 MR. TRUMP: THE COURT: I don't know how this witness can testify MR. TRUMP: She doesn't know about anything to this. 5 6 Your Honor, I'm going to object to showing this witness this, this note. 3 4 297 Mr. Risen -- 7 THE COURT: 8 MS. HAESSLY: 9 Yeah, I'm going to sustain. Your Honor, she testified she read the book, and this is in the book. 10 THE COURT: That's all right, we'll do it a different 11 way. 12 BY MS. HAESSLY: 13 Q. 14 Vienna; is that correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. While you were in Vienna, do you recall going to the 17 opera? 18 A. 19 20 I'm sustaining the objection. You also testified that you accompanied your husband to I don't recall it. MS. HAESSLY: Mr. Francisco, could we pull up Exhibit 132, please? 21 MR. FRANCISCO: 22 MS. HAESSLY: 23 Q. 24 paragraph 50? 25 Let's move this along. What page? Page 203, paragraph 50. Mrs. Merlin, can you see on your screen beside you THE COURT: What is the question? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 17 of 254 PageID# 5015 Mrs. Merlin - Cross 298 1 BY MS. HAESSLY: 2 Q. This is paragraph 50 from the book. 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. Have you -- in this paragraph, there's a quote from the 5 Russian, referring to your husband, "I spent a lot of time to 6 ask people as I could, and they told me that no streets with 7 this name are around." 8 Do you see that? 9 A. Yes, I can see that. 10 Q. Do you know how your husband came to be quoted in 11 Mr. Risen's book? 12 A. Can you repeat? 13 Q. Do you know how your husband is quoted, how he came to be 14 quoted in Mr. Risen's book? 15 A. 16 sentence. 17 Q. 18 came to be in this book? 19 A. I don't have a clue. 20 Q. And after this book was published, did anybody not 21 connected with the program described in the book connect you or 22 your husband with the book? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you, your husband, or anybody in your family ever 25 receive any threats? Can you rephrase? I cannot get the meaning of your Do you have any knowledge of how your husband's quotation I don't know. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 18 of 254 PageID# 5016 Walter C. - Direct 299 1 A. No. 2 Q. Were you or your husband ever approached by the KGB? 3 A. No, not yet. 4 MS. HAESSLY: 5 No further questions. 6 THE COURT: All right, any redirect? 7 MR. TRUMP: One moment. 8 No, Your Honor. 9 THE COURT: 10 your testimony. 11 home. 12 One moment, Your Honor? Thank you. All right. Mrs. Merlin, thank you for You're finished with the Court. THE WITNESS: You may go Thank you. 13 (Witness excused.) 14 THE COURT: 15 MR. OLSHAN: 16 witness is Walter C. 17 THE COURT: Call the next witness. Your Honor, the government's next Hold on a second. 18 WALTER C., GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, AFFIRMED 19 DIRECT EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. OLSHAN: 21 Q. Good morning, sir. 22 A. Good morning. 23 Q. If you would, could you please state and spell your first 24 name and just your last initial? 25 A. Walter C., W-a-l-t-e-r C. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 19 of 254 PageID# 5017 Walter C. - Direct 300 1 Q. Mr. C., are you currently employed? 2 A. No, I'm retired. 3 Q. And can you briefly describe for the jury your educational 4 background? 5 A. 6 Degree in Engineering Physics. 7 Q. Where did you obtain those degrees? 8 A. Florida State University for the bachelor's and the Air 9 Force Institute of Technology for the master's degree. I have an undergraduate degree in physics and a Master's 10 Q. You mentioned the Air Force. 11 did you ever work for the Air Force in connection with your 12 education or afterwards? 13 A. 14 Force for 20 years. 15 Q. 16 or just after? 17 A. 18 Air Force career. 19 Q. 20 Force, did you work as a scientist with the Air Force? 21 A. I worked as a scientist and also a project manager. 22 Q. You testified that you worked -- or you were affiliated 23 with the Air Force for 20 years, correct? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. After your affiliation with the Air Force, did you go work Yes. Were you ever enlisted or I served an an officer in the United States Air Was that both before and after you received your master's I received my master's at about the three-year point in my After you received your master's degree from the Air Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 20 of 254 PageID# 5018 Walter C. - Direct 301 1 somewhere else? 2 A. 3 for one of the National Laboratories. 4 Q. 5 Laboratories? 6 A. Twenty-three years. 7 Q. So between the Air Force and the National Laboratory, 8 that's 43 years? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Approximately what years did you work at the National 11 Laboratory? 12 A. From 1989 to 2011. 13 Q. I'm probably going to refer to it as the lab. 14 okay? 15 A. The lab is fine. 16 Q. And, I'm sorry, you said what years did you work at the 17 lab? 18 A. 1989 to 2011. 19 Q. And that's when you retired? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. In 2011? Yes. When I retired from the Air Force, I went to work And how long did you work for one of the National 22 Is that During your time working at the lab, did your work 23 ever involve nuclear engineering or weaponry? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Approximately how much of your time there was spent in Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 21 of 254 PageID# 5019 Walter C. - Direct 302 1 that field? 2 A. Approximately 50 percent. 3 Q. During your time at the lab, did you become familiar with 4 a particular classified program that I will refer to as 5 Classified Program No. 1? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. And was the lab contracted to work on this program? 8 A. Yes, it was. 9 Q. By a different government agency? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What agency was that? 12 A. That was the CIA. 13 Q. Can you briefly describe why was the lab contracted to 14 do -- to work on this program, as opposed to the CIA just doing 15 it on its own? 16 A. 17 experience in the area of interest. 18 Q. 19 government entities would contract with the lab to do specific 20 technical sorts of programs? 21 A. Yes, that happened very often. 22 Q. Was your work with this particular program classified? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And did you hold a security clearance? 25 A. Yes, I did. Because the lab has specific and long-lasting technical And in your experience at the lab, was this routine that Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 22 of 254 PageID# 5020 Walter C. - Direct 303 1 Q. Without saying it, at the lab, did the program have a 2 specific code name? 3 A. It did. 4 Q. And do you know if the CIA used the same or a different 5 code name for the same program? 6 A. They had their own code name for this project. 7 Q. Did you know what that code name was? 8 A. I did not. 9 Q. But you knew it was different? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You testified that this was a classified program. 12 other people at the lab hold security clearances? 13 A. 14 security clearance or another. 15 Q. 16 about this particular program? 17 A. 18 and very few individuals at the lab were briefed in at the 19 security level needed to work on this project. 20 Q. 21 would you characterize the -- how closely held this program was 22 compared to others you worked on? 23 A. 24 worked on either at the lab or during my tenure in the Air 25 Force. Yes. Did Virtually everyone at the lab has one kind of And does that mean that virtually everyone at the lab knew No, absolutely not. This was a very close-hold program, And relative to your whole 23-year career at the lab, how This was more closely held than any other project that I Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 23 of 254 PageID# 5021 Walter C. - Direct 304 1 Q. I mentioned Classified Program No. 1. Can you briefly 2 describe for the jury what the purpose was for this program 3 when the lab got involved? 4 A. 5 Russian nuclear fire set that would have embedded in that 6 design a significant number of flaws to render it impossible to 7 operate and to provide that to our customer, the CIA, who would 8 then deliver it by some means to Iran. 9 Q. To Iran? 10 A. To Iran, yes. 11 Q. And what was your understanding of the purpose of 12 providing these -- this design with embedded flaws to the 13 Iranians? 14 A. 15 give to Iran that would distract them from their own fire set 16 development and cause them to expend resources and time trying 17 to make this faulty design work that might have been applied to 18 their original work, thereby causing them a lot of delays and 19 frustration in their, their nuclear program. 20 Q. 21 nuclear capability? 22 A. Yes, undermine and delay the program. 23 Q. Are you familiar with the term "counterproliferation"? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Can you describe in your own words just what that concept The purpose of the program was to develop a design of a Why do that? The whole idea was to have a, a credible red herring to So was it meant to undermine the development of Iran's Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 24 of 254 PageID# 5022 Walter C. - Direct 305 1 is? 2 A. 3 this case of nuclear design information. 4 would be any action taken to try to stop that proliferation or 5 at least slow it down. 6 Q. 7 involved in this program, was it the lab's job to help develop 8 the designs that would be delivered to Iran? 9 A. Well, proliferation, of course, is the proliferation in Counterproliferation You testified that the target was Iran. Yes. When the lab got We had -- or rather, the CIA had access to a Russian 10 nuclear fire set designer, and they provided this individual, 11 made him available to us, a very small number of my team on the 12 technical side, to study the information that he had and 13 develop a design that we could be -- that could then be used to 14 be corrupted and then given to the Iranians. 15 Q. 16 started, when the lab first started its work on Classified 17 Program No. 1, did you base the work or the project on any 18 assumptions about the state of Iran's nuclear capabilities at 19 the time? 20 A. 21 that's a good way to put it, and they were early in their 22 technical development of a nuclear program. 23 Q. 24 earlier? 25 A. So let me take you back a little bit. Yes. When you first We believed them to be a nascent proliferant, if So when you say early, relative to the United States, much Much earlier. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 25 of 254 PageID# 5023 Walter C. - Direct 306 1 Q. If you could, tell the jury approximately when did the lab 2 become involved in this program? 3 A. Approximately the summer of 1996. 4 Q. You testified that the product at issue involved a fire 5 set, a Russian fire set; is that correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. Can you briefly describe for the jury's benefit, what is a 8 fire set? 9 A. What does that do? A fire set, a nuclear fire set in particular is one of 10 many, many components that go into a nuclear weapon, and if you 11 think of the distributor in an automobile as a very simplistic 12 way of looking at this, the distributor sends electrical pulses 13 to the spark plug to then combust the gasoline in the 14 cylinders. 15 Much the same concept only on a much higher and much 16 more demanding technical level, the fire set does the same 17 thing for the, the nuclear device. 18 device as distinct from the fire set, I'm talking about what 19 everybody calls the bomb, the plutonium or whatever the bomb is 20 made of, and the explosive that goes around that device, the 21 fire set, enables the initiation of that device. 22 Q. 23 components that would be part of a nuclear device; is that 24 correct? 25 A. And when I say nuclear So you testified that the fire set is one of the Right. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 26 of 254 PageID# 5024 Walter C. - Direct 307 1 Q. And that's one of a few or many? 2 A. Many. 3 to make up a nuclear weapon. 4 Q. 5 complete mockup of a nuclear device? 6 A. 7 set. 8 Q. Just one of those many components? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Now, from the outset of the lab's involvement in this 11 program, were there any guiding principles as far as your 12 involvement or the, the lab's involvement in this project? 13 A. 14 the CIA, there was a single overriding imperative. 15 Q. What was that imperative? 16 A. That was, to coin a phrase, do no harm. 17 we didn't want to deliver a product that was ultimately going 18 to end up in the Iranians' hands that would result in giving 19 them a significant or any level of improvement toward their 20 nuclear program or anything that might ultimately come to harm 21 the United States or its allies. 22 Q. 23 entire involvement in the program? 24 A. 25 senior project manager for the program at the lab, we always Sometimes many hundreds of components go together So did this program involve offering to the Iranians a No. Yes. This, this was specifically focused on a nuclear fire Similar to other programs we've done especially for In other words, And did this principle guide the lab's work throughout its Absolutely. At every meeting that I held, and I was the Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 27 of 254 PageID# 5025 Walter C. - Direct 308 1 focused on that imperative. 2 Q. 3 same thing as sort of the team leader for the folks at the lab? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You testified that the, the customer, so to speak, was the 6 CIA. 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. Did you have particular points of contact at the CIA? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And were those individuals whom I'll refer to as Bob S. 11 and William, or Bill F.? 12 A. 13 the agency. 14 Q. And you would have meetings with them? 15 A. Yes, we had program reviews on a regular basis. 16 Q. You testified that the idea was to deliver to the Iranians 17 a flawed fire set design. 18 at the beginning? 19 A. 20 this Russian nuclear fire set designer and they essentially 21 provided him to us, we were able to take information that he 22 had and construct initially a working, fully functional nuclear 23 fire set design based on the information that he provided. 24 Q. 25 correct? You mentioned you were the project manager. Correct. Is that the Those were the principal interfaces we had with How did you go about developing that Well, as I stated earlier, because the CIA had access to Let me back you up. You mentioned a Russian asset, Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 28 of 254 PageID# 5026 Walter C. - Direct 309 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. I'm going to refer to an individual named Merlin. 3 familiar with who that person is? 4 A. I am. 5 Q. Is the Russian asset you just mentioned who had fire set 6 design experience the same as Merlin or someone else? 7 A. 8 possess nuclear fire set knowledge to any great degree. 9 Q. No, it was someone else. Are you To my knowledge, Merlin did not As between the fire set engineer that you debriefed and 10 Mr. Merlin, which one had greater technical knowledge as to the 11 design of fire sets? 12 A. Oh, the other asset. 13 Q. The first one that you -- 14 A. The first one. 15 Q. Did you ever meet with the other one, whom I'm referring 16 to as Merlin? 17 A. No, I did not. 18 Q. Now, you testified that you were involved in debriefing 19 this first Russian scientist about his knowledge as to Russian 20 fire sets, correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. Did he have a complete understanding of a Russian fire 23 set? 24 A. 25 Russians work, they compartmentalize their design labs. He did not have a complete understanding. The way the Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 29 of 254 PageID# 5027 Walter C. - Direct 310 1 Q. What does that mean? 2 A. That means that no single individual at least at the 3 working level has a complete knowledge of any particular fire 4 set design or any weapon component design, and it's basically 5 because they don't trust their own people. 6 Q. 7 person knew how to design an entire fire set? 8 A. 9 design and that person decided to provide that information to a And can you explain that? Why would it matter if one If one person had a complete knowledge of a fire set 10 third party, that could be extremely damaging to the Russian 11 program. 12 Q. 13 scientist wouldn't necessarily know everything in Russia, was 14 that concept built into the, the idea for this particular 15 program as far as the product that would be delivered? 16 A. 17 the individual that we debriefed knew a lot about this nuclear 18 fire set, which is designated the TBA 480, but he didn't have a 19 complete knowledge. 20 experience designing U.S. nuclear fire sets, we were able to 21 fill in the blanks and construct a complete functional design 22 that looked very much like a Russian nuclear fire set. 23 Q. 24 this individual to obtain all the information he possessed 25 about fire sets, or this TBA 480, right? Now, this concept of compartmentalization, how one Well, it certainly had an impact on our approach because However, because of the lab's extensive Let me make sure I have this straight. So you debriefed Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 30 of 254 PageID# 5028 Walter C. - Direct 311 1 A. Right. 2 Q. And then was that sufficient to construct a working fire 3 set based on just his knowledge? 4 A. 5 not fill in for us. 6 Q. And who filled those in? 7 A. Our technical design team. 8 Q. So in combination between the information provided by this 9 first Russian and the technical team, was the lab able to No, because he had, he had gaps in design that he could 10 develop a workable fire set based on the combined information? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Can you recall approximately how long from mid-1996, 13 beginning of 1996, did it take to develop the, the functioning 14 fire set design? 15 A. 16 functioning design that we tested in a laboratory approximately 17 April of the following year. 18 Q. '97? 19 A. '97, yes. 20 Q. After you had this working fire set, what did you do with 21 it? 22 A. 23 was to develop flaws that could be incorporated into that 24 design that would ensure that it would not function. 25 Q. It took approximately nine months. So we had a At that point, our next -- the next phase of the project Was it just one embedded flaw or multiple flaws? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 31 of 254 PageID# 5029 Walter C. - Direct 312 1 A. No, they were, they were multiple flaws. 2 Q. Approximately how long did it take -- did the process take 3 to embed these flaws into the fire set design? 4 A. 5 testing the flaws. 6 completely broken fire set and test it, but we did test each of 7 the individual flaws both by laboratory testing and also using 8 sophisticated models that the lab has developed over the years. 9 Q. We spent about eight months developing the flaws and Now, when I say testing, we didn't build a During this time that the lab was embedding the flaws, do 10 you recall attending a meeting with Bill F. and Bob S. and 11 others about someone that I will refer to as Merlin? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Is that the first time that you can recall learning about 14 Merlin or his use in this program? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Was that in approximately October 1997? 17 A. That sounds right, yes. 18 Q. You testified that Mr. Merlin was going to be delivering 19 this product, that flawed design, correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Can you just describe for the jury, when we say "design," 22 was it one, one piece of paper that he was going to hand them? 23 What was he going to give them? 24 A. 25 provide them included three pieces. The deliverables that we were under contract to the CIA to One was an electrical Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 32 of 254 PageID# 5030 Walter C. - Direct 313 1 schematic, second was a parts list that referred to that 2 electrical schematic, and the third was a three-dimensional 3 drawing that showed how all the components would have to be put 4 together in a fairly compact package. 5 Q. 6 design of how it would have to be put together, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. In your experience, is that a difficult part of 9 construction of a fire set, sort of packaging? You described this third part of the product as a 3-D 10 A. 11 developing an operational nuclear fire set. 12 Q. 13 would make it easier or harder to take the fire set and reduce 14 it to the 3-D design that would be provided? 15 A. 16 the first place, it would have been impossible to, to find all 17 the flaws even if you knew what you were looking for. 18 taking the electrical package and putting it into a, you know, 19 small space, small configuration that could be used in an 20 aircraft-delivered weapon or in a missile-delivered weapon 21 creates a whole host of additional problems beyond just the 22 electrical problems. 23 Q. 24 25 Yes. It's one of the very most difficult parts of, of Were the embedded flaws embedded in such a way that it The electrical flaws were so many and so complex that in The Thank you. So once the team had taken the workable fire set and created the embedded, the flawed version of it, what did the Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 33 of 254 PageID# 5031 Walter C. - Direct 314 1 lab do with the flawed version? 2 A. 3 Iran to perhaps determine what was, what was wrong with this 4 fire set, so the lab, you know, over decades, we were able to 5 call on the experience of fire set designers. 6 a team that we called the Red Team, which was given the 7 electrical design, and they were asked to evaluate that design. 8 They were not told anything about where it came from or that 9 it, that it had problems or it had flaws in it, but they were 10 We wanted to know how easy or how hard it would be for We put together asked to evaluate that design. 11 And the team was comprised of individuals that could 12 bring to bear all the technical expertise that would be 13 required to develop a fire set, and combined, they had 14 approximately 200 years of experience in developing fire sets 15 for the U.S. 16 Q. 17 fire sets? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And to be clear, none of individuals or the scientists 20 that were on the Red Team were part of developing the flawed 21 design? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Did any of the members of the Red Team have prior 24 experience trying to identify flaws in weapons designs or other 25 designs? 200 years focused -- combined 200 years focused on just Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 34 of 254 PageID# 5032 Walter C. - Direct 315 1 A. Yes, some of them did. 2 Q. And was it useful to you in evaluating the flawed designs 3 to have people on the Red Team who had previously spotted or 4 tried to spot flaws in other designs? 5 A. 6 any of the team members would discover that this design had 7 been intentionally modified or corrupted. 8 Q. 9 that they would be able to identify some of the problems with One of the things we were interested in is whether or not Now, given the experience of the Red Team, did you expect 10 the fire set design? 11 A. 12 some of the flaws that we had designed into the faulty fire 13 set. 14 Q. And did they? 15 A. Yes, they did. 16 Q. Approximately what percentage of the embedded flaws did 17 they identify? 18 A. 19 design, they identified approximately 25 percent of the flaws 20 that we had built into the design. 21 Q. 22 of the Red Team that they might identify that some of these 23 flaws were deliberately placed in the design? 24 A. 25 the experience of some of the team members. Yes. We were certain that they were going to identify Over a period of five months that they worked with the Now, did you have any expectation based on the experience We actually, we actually assumed that they would based on It turned out that Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 35 of 254 PageID# 5033 Walter C. - Direct 316 1 to our surprise, that none of Red Team members tumbled to the 2 fact that this was an intentionally corrupted fire set design. 3 Q. So no one figured it out? 4 A. No one figured it out on the Red Team. 5 Q. Now, given the experience of the team, did you have any 6 expectation that they would be able to cobble together a fire 7 set based on these flawed designs? 8 A. 9 time and especially given their experience level. None. We were certain that they could do it given the 10 Q. You said you were certain they could cobble something 11 together; is that correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And was that a final, complete, usable fire set, or just 14 something that would work in the laboratory? 15 A. 16 electrical schematic that was provided to them, testing 17 individual parts of that, and then after they had identified 18 ten problem areas and fixed those, we -- they built a 19 laboratory version of that fire set and got it to function in 20 the laboratory. 21 Q. 22 different than getting a fire set to work in a weapon? 23 A. 24 environment, you know, like your desktop at work. 25 take a laboratory test version and you package it again into a, No. They divided their time between modeling the Now, you said function in the laboratory. Yes. Is that The laboratory, as you can imagine, is a very benign When you Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 36 of 254 PageID# 5034 Walter C. - Direct 317 1 you know, a small container that might fly in a missile or in 2 an aircraft bomb, you run into a host of problems that could 3 broadly be categorized as ruggedization issues. 4 Q. 5 problems in trying to use a fire set outside of a laboratory 6 setting in a weapons setting? 7 A. Yes, many. 8 Q. And you testified that the Red Team was able to identify 9 approximately 25 percent of the embedded flaws? I'll just stop you there. So there would be additional 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. Would any of the remaining 75 percent of the flaws come 12 into place once you tried to take this device out of a 13 laboratory setting? 14 A. Certainly. 15 Q. And would those have proven -- strike that. 16 You testified that the Red Team worked on the flawed 17 designs or examined them for approximately five months; is that 18 right? 19 A. Yes, yes. 20 Q. And at the completion of the Red Team's work, did you 21 consider the design a success? 22 A. Yes, we did. 23 Q. Why was that? 24 A. Well, first of all, because of the Red Team's experience, 25 we knew that they were going to solve enough of the problems, Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 37 of 254 PageID# 5035 Walter C. - Direct 318 1 and they solved approximately 25 percent, and be able to make a 2 laboratory version function, and they could have even taken 3 that and they could have packaged it because, you know, the lab 4 has the experience to do that. 5 surprised. So we were not at all 6 The fact that it took them five months was actually a 7 good sign because we considered that the Iranian program, which 8 would be much less mature than the U.S. program, their nuclear 9 scientists would take way, way longer to solve the same 10 problems. 11 Q. 12 was that conclusion about the Red Team relevant in your 13 assessing the risk of this program? 14 A. 15 evaluate. 16 Q. 17 design with the embedded flaws to the first Russian scientist? 18 A. Yes, we did. 19 Q. Was he able to identify upon examining the product any of 20 the embedded flaws? 21 A. No. 22 Q. What was his reaction upon reviewing -- 23 24 25 And going back to that guiding principle about do no harm, Absolutely. And that's why we put together a Red Team, to After the Red Team completed its work, did you show the MR. MAC MAHON: foundation. Your Honor, objection. Lack of It's just hearsay. THE COURT: Well, lay a foundation. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 38 of 254 PageID# 5036 Walter C. - Direct 319 1 BY MR. OLSHAN: 2 Q. 3 scientist? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And were you present when he reviewed the completed flawed 6 fire set design? 7 A. Yes, I was. 8 Q. And as to his response, did he indicate any concerns about 9 the fire set design? Did you meet with this individual, the first Russian 10 11 We had four meetings with him. MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, objection to hearsay as well. 12 THE COURT: It's only being offered -- I can tell 13 from the question it's not being offered for the truth of its 14 contents but rather to explain the understanding that this 15 witness and the lab would have had, and that's different, so 16 it's not hearsay. 17 Overruled. MR. OLSHAN: That's my purpose. Thank you, Your 18 Honor. 19 Q. 20 to you? 21 A. He had no concerns. 22 Q. And was that relevant in this risk assessment? 23 A. It was another data point that said we have done a good 24 job in our design, and the original Russian nuclear fire set 25 designer that we worked with was satisfied that it looked So did he have any concerns -- did he express any concerns Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 39 of 254 PageID# 5037 Walter C. - Direct 320 1 credible to him. 2 Q. 3 months. 4 end? 5 A. That ended approximately May of '98. 6 Q. So between the lab's first involvement in mid, excuse me, 7 mid-1996 through the end of the Red Team process was 8 approximately two years of work? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. You testified a couple times about risk assessment. 11 the end of the work that the lab did, did the lab provide or 12 produce an overall assessment of the risk of this design being 13 provided to the Iranians? 14 A. 15 provided that to them. 16 Q. 17 in your understanding? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And was it also important for the lab to have made that 20 assessment? 21 A. Yes, indeed. 22 Q. And what was the bottom line of that assessment? 23 A. The bottom line was there was no risk that the Iranian 24 nuclear scientists would determine that this look-alike Russian 25 nuclear fire set had been intentionally corrupted. You testified that the Red Team took approximately five When did that end? Yes. Approximately when did their work At The CIA asked for that risk assessment, and we So it was important that the CIA had that risk assessment Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 40 of 254 PageID# 5038 Walter C. - Direct 321 1 Q. And did you reach any assessments about whether this 2 flawed fire set design would materially advance their program? 3 A. We did. 4 Q. And would it? 5 A. And we determined that the answer to that was no. 6 Q. Did that assessment take into account the possibility that 7 the Iranians might already be working with a Russian scientist 8 who could help them with this Russian design? 9 A. That was part of the, the risk assessment. What, what -- one of the stipulations of our risk 10 assessment and that conclusion was that you would have to 11 have -- that the Iranians would have to have a team of nuclear 12 fire set designers because of the compartmentalization issue. 13 If they had one nuclear fire set designer from Russia, he 14 wouldn't have been able to help them at the, at the level it 15 would require to use the design. 16 Q. So they would have needed a whole team of people? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. And if they had a whole team of people, would this be of 19 interest to them in the first place? 20 A. If they -- 21 22 MR. MAC MAHON: at this point. 23 MR. OLSHAN: 24 THE COURT: 25 Your Honor, objection to speculation knowledge. This is based on -No, I think this witness has sufficient Overruled. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 41 of 254 PageID# 5039 Walter C. - Direct 1 MR. OLSHAN: 322 Thank you. 2 Q. So my question, Mr. C., is if they had had a team of 3 Russian scientists, would this product, these flawed designs, 4 be of any use to them in your experience? 5 A. 6 of nuclear fire set designers from Russia, and that would -- 7 that would mean the Russians were willing to give them 8 essentially the crown jewels of their program. 9 have any need for the design that we had provided to the CIA. In my estimation, if they were already working with a team They wouldn't 10 Q. 11 recall whether you received any questions that were conveyed by 12 Merlin about the product, the design? 13 contacted by anyone that he had -- 14 A. 15 that Merlin had some concerns about the package that we had 16 provided. 17 Q. 18 flaws? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did it have anything to do with the completeness of what 21 was handed to him? 22 A. 23 After the lab completed its work, later in 1998, do you Yes. Do you remember being One of, one of the CIA officers called me and said And did those concerns involve identifying the embedded Yes. THE COURT: Do you remember any more detail than just 24 completeness? Was there a particular aspect of incompleteness 25 that was earmarked for you? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 42 of 254 PageID# 5040 Walter C. - Direct 1 THE WITNESS: 323 Yes, Your Honor. Because the nuclear 2 fire set designer that we debriefed did not have a complete 3 knowledge of that design, we had some gaps in the parts list 4 that we were unable to provide specific Russian part numbers 5 for. 6 BY MR. OLSHAN: 7 Q. 8 that fit the story that the person offering these plans to 9 Russia, who was a disaffected Russian scientist, would not know Going back to this concept of compartmentalization, did 10 everything that would need to go into the design? 11 A. Yes, exactly. 12 Q. So in your estimation, would it have raised potentially 13 red flags with the Iranians if what had been provided to them 14 had been the complete parts list, with all the right parts and 15 everything slotted in the right place? 16 A. 17 individual. 18 Q. 19 on the concerns, were any changes made to the product? 20 A. That would have been surprising having come from a single You testified that you heard about these concerns. Based We made no changes to the product after that. 21 MR. OLSHAN: 22 exhibits. 23 binder. 24 25 That would have been impossible. I'd like to show the witness two They're going to be Exhibits 26 and 28 in the first THE COURT: Does defense have any objection to 26 and/or 28? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 43 of 254 PageID# 5041 Walter C. - Direct 324 1 MR. MAC MAHON: 26 and 28? 2 No objection to either exhibit, Your Honor. 3 THE COURT: 4 (Government's Exhibit Nos. 26 and 28 were received in All right, they're both in. 5 evidence.) 6 BY MR. OLSHAN: 7 Q. Do you have those in front of you, sir? 8 A. I do. 9 10 MR. OLSHAN: Your Honor, at this time, may we publish 26? 11 THE COURT: Yes. They're both admitted, so you may 12 publish them. 13 BY MR. OLSHAN: 14 Q. Mr. C., do you recognize this document? 15 A. Yes, I do. 16 Q. And does this appear to be a redacted version of a letter? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What's the purpose of this letter? 19 A. Because we were providing materials to a foreign entity, 20 in this case Iran, we had to ensure that nothing in the 21 deliverables would violate any of the U.S. export control laws. 22 Q. 23 aspects of this program, were there also legal requirements 24 involved in the lab's work? 25 A. In addition, in addition to the sort of operational Yes. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 44 of 254 PageID# 5042 Walter C. - Direct 325 1 Q. Does this letter indicate that -- what does this letter 2 indicate about whether the conduct would violate any export 3 control or other laws? 4 A. 5 the CIA that would ultimately end up with the Iranians would 6 violate a number of different export control laws. 7 Q. 8 you read it out loud? 9 A. Well, it merely says that nothing that we are providing to And the last sentence, if you could just read that? Yes. Can "However, in the very remote possibility that the 10 end user can also acquire the critical specifications 11 intentionally omitted from the design and if the user can also 12 acquire the necessary fabrication technologies to successfully 13 fabricate a fully functional device, the end product would then 14 be subject to the above controls." 15 Q. 16 giving them and get other additional information, then it 17 possibly could violate export control law? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. All right. 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Was this a required letter for purposes of the lab's 22 sign-off on the program? 23 A. Yes, it was. 24 Q. And who is it addressed to? 25 A. It is addressed to our contacts at the CIA. So does that mean if they were able to take what you were But as designed, it did not? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 45 of 254 PageID# 5043 Walter C. - Direct 326 1 Q. Mr. F. and Mr. S.? 2 A. Mr. F. and Mr. S. 3 Q. That's Bill F. and Bob S.? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. What's the date on this letter? 6 A. It's June 9, 1999. 7 Q. So this letter was approximately one year after the Red 8 Team had completed its work? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. If you could flip to 28 in that binder? 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. Do you see another letter? 13 A. I have it, yes. 14 Q. Is that another letter from the lab to the CIA? 15 A. That is a letter from our National Laboratory to the CIA. 16 Q. What's the date of that letter? 17 A. July 28, 1999. 18 Q. So about a month and a half after the letter we looked at 19 in Exhibit 26? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What's the purpose of this letter? 22 A. This is a, essentially a summary of the imperative that we 23 had operated with since Day One, that we were not to provide 24 enabling technology to the Iranians, and it succinctly states 25 that what we are providing to the CIA and thus ultimately to Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 46 of 254 PageID# 5044 Walter C. - Direct 327 1 the Iranians would not significantly enable them their nuclear 2 fire set program to advance. 3 Q. 4 Iranians already had some basic understanding as to a nuclear 5 weapons design? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. You testified that you did not know what the CIA called 8 this program. 9 the CIA related to this program? And this assessment was based on an assumption that the Did you have access to any of the material at 10 A. No. 11 Q. Could you have gone on your computer and looked at 12 anything in the CIA's files about this program? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you know an individual named James Risen? 15 A. I do not know James Risen. 16 Q. Have you ever heard of him? 17 A. I have heard of him. 18 Q. And are you aware of a book he wrote called State of War? 19 A. I am. 20 Q. Have you read it? 21 A. I have read one of the chapters. 22 Q. Is that chapter 9? 23 A. "A Rogue Operation." 24 Q. A chapter about the program we've been describing? 25 A. Yes. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 47 of 254 PageID# 5045 Walter C. - Cross 328 1 Q. Have you ever talked to Mr. Risen about this program or 2 your work or the lab's work on the program? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Have you ever talked to anyone whom you knew did not have 5 proper clearances to know about this program? 6 A. No. 7 MR. OLSHAN: 8 THE COURT: 9 MR. OLSHAN: One moment, Your Honor? Yes, sir. One moment, Your Honor. 10 If we could go back briefly to Exhibit 28? 11 THE COURT: 28? All right. 12 BY MR. OLSHAN: 13 Q. And if you could just read, Mr. C., the second paragraph? 14 A. "The significant design details that might materially aid 15 the user have been intentionally omitted from this design. 16 This includes such critical information necessary for use in a 17 delivery system." 18 Q. 19 to speak, that the lab worked on the entire time? 20 A. And does this letter encapsulate that prime directive, so Yes, it did. 21 MR. OLSHAN: 22 THE COURT: 23 MR. MAC MAHON: 24 25 That's all I have for now, Your Honor. All right, cross-examination? Thank you, Your Honor. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MAC MAHON: Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 48 of 254 PageID# 5046 Walter C. - Cross Good morning, Mr. C. 329 1 Q. My name is Edward MacMahon. I'm one 2 of the lawyers for Mr. Sterling. 3 A. Good morning. 4 Q. Did you read chapter 9 of State of War? 5 testimony was? 6 A. I did. 7 Q. And were you offended by the suggestion that Mr. Risen 8 wrote that something that you worked on may have aided the 9 Iranians in developing a nuclear weapons program? Is that what your 10 A. I, I was entertained by the chapter, and then as an 11 afterthought, I was offended because it violated -- or the 12 concept of a rogue operation violated our prime directive to do 13 no harm. 14 Q. All right. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And it offended you because it was never -- your, your 17 testimony is that the operation was vetted in a way that 18 nothing of any value could be given to the Iranians, correct? 19 A. Yes, on our part, on the lab's part. 20 Q. Okay. 21 that you briefed -- and that may be the wrong word -- but you 22 talked to Bob S. about the work that was done at the lab? 23 A. 24 review the program frequently, so I, I met him on a number of 25 occasions. Yes. So it did offend you? Now, in -- you testified -- I think you testified They -- Bill F. and Bob S. would come to the labs to Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 49 of 254 PageID# 5047 Walter C. - Cross Okay. 330 1 Q. And without naming anybody, you also briefed other 2 people that worked at the CIA about the operation, correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. And how many people other than Bob S. did you brief about 5 this operation? 6 A. 7 individuals. 8 Q. 9 details to these people? I, I would recall two-three-four, a small number of And do you remember when this happened that you gave 10 A. It would have been during the lifetime of the project, so 11 '96 through '98, and then occasionally afterwards, as they had 12 follow-up questions. 13 Q. 14 details about the deception plans, correct? 15 A. 16 design flaws that the lab built in, yes. 17 Q. Was there -- was -- deception was the whole idea, correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Now, I think your other term was you wanted to make a 20 credible red herring. 21 A. 22 because it was based on a real Russian nuclear fire set and it 23 would be -- the design would be credible. 24 Q. 25 design of a Russian nuclear weapon was to add a parts list of Right. And what you gave to those people were crucial Well, the deception plans, if you're referring to the Yes. Is that what you said? That was the reason that this TBA 480 was selected, Right. And one of the ways that you made a credible Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 50 of 254 PageID# 5048 Walter C. - Cross 331 1 English parts; is that correct? 2 A. 3 electrical schematic. 4 Q. 5 weapon in English, correct? 6 A. 7 have to see the parts list to refresh my memory. 8 Q. 9 with English parts list before? It had -- yes, it was a parts list that referenced the And it referenced the parts list for a Russian nuclear I don't remember fully, but I believe that it did. I'd Had you ever seen a design for a Russian nuclear weapon 10 A. I'd never seen a design for a Russian nuclear fire set 11 before. 12 Q. 13 one with an English parts list, right? 14 A. That's right. 15 Q. And you testified that there were people -- and if I've 16 got this wrong, please correct me -- but that you said that you 17 had people who were experienced in identifying flaws in fire 18 set plans? 19 A. 20 components. 21 Q. 22 word, but there are counterfeit fire set plans? You'd never seen -- you'd never seen one at all, much less Yes. Fire set plans and, and other nuclear weapons And this is because there's a, market may not be the right 23 MR. OLSHAN: 24 THE COURT: 25 Objection. Sustained. BY MR. MAC MAHON: Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 51 of 254 PageID# 5049 Walter C. - Cross Okay. 332 1 Q. You said that -- why do you have people with 2 experience -- I'm trying to think of a way to ask the question, 3 Your Honor. 4 with experience in detecting flaws in fire set plans, correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. Well, fire set and other nuclear components. 8 Q. Right. 9 A. But as a subset of that, yes. 10 Q. And is that all for purposes of the deception plans that 11 we're talking of here? Your testimony was there were people at the lab 12 MR. OLSHAN: 13 THE COURT: 14 MR. MAC MAHON: 15 Objection. Sustained. He opened the door, Your Honor. I'm trying to understand -- 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 MR. MAC MAHON: Thank you, Your Honor. 18 Q. You -- we looked at -- I think your testimony was that you 19 didn't have any idea what the Iranian scientists had in 1998 in 20 terms of fire set plans; is that correct? 21 A. That we did not have any idea? 22 Q. You didn't have any information as to whether there was a, 23 they had a working set of fire set plans from a Russian 24 scientist, correct? 25 A. We had access to intelligence assessment from the Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 52 of 254 PageID# 5050 Walter C. - Cross 333 1 Intelligence Community that made an assessment as to what the 2 maturity of their program was. 3 Q. 4 U.S. government issued an intelligence finding publicly that 5 the Iranians -- Okay. 6 7 MR. OLSHAN: Objection. This is beyond the scope of direct. 8 9 And you're aware that there came a time when the MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, he testified as to what -- 10 THE COURT: I think right now, as long as we're 11 talking about publicly released documents, there's no basis for 12 the objection. 13 of knowledge that the Iranians may have had about fire sets is 14 within the scope of the direct. 15 the assumptions that are listed in Exhibits 26 or 28. 16 17 The issue about what the Iranians -- the level It certainly is included in So you've opened the door, but it has to be within the parameters of this case. 18 MR. MAC MAHON: 19 MR. OLSHAN: I understand, Your Honor. Your Honor, my objection is to anything 20 that Mr. -- anything that happened after this. 21 wants to limit it to an assessment at the time that the lab was 22 involved in this program, that's fine, but anything that 23 happened subsequent is not relevant to this witness's 24 testimony. 25 THE COURT: Well, it depends. If Mr. MacMahon Let me hear the Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 53 of 254 PageID# 5051 Walter C. - Cross 334 1 question again. 2 BY MR. MAC MAHON: 3 Q. 4 government issued a national intelligence assessment later that 5 said the Iranians don't even have a nuclear weapons program? 6 A. Only vaguely. 7 Q. And when we looked at Exhibit -- excuse me, Exhibit 28, if 8 Mr. Francisco would put Exhibit 28 up again for me, please? My question is are you aware that the United States 9 10 I couldn't confirm that 100 percent. I'm sorry, it's 26, please, Mr. Francisco. I'm sorry. 11 I beg the Court's indulgence. 12 Okay. Do you remember the paragraph that Mr. Olshan 13 had you read that starts, "However, in the very remote 14 possibility" -- 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. "-- that the end user can also acquire the critical 17 specifications intentionally?" 18 Do you see that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. So in June -- on June 9, 1999, you were aware that there 21 was a remote possibility that the end user could acquire the 22 critical specs and thus get some benefit from getting these 23 plans, correct? 24 A. A very remote possibility. 25 Q. Right. "Very remote" is the word here, but there was a Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 54 of 254 PageID# 5052 Walter C. - Redirect 335 1 possibility, wasn't there? 2 A. I think I would have to speculate on that. 3 Q. And the weapons plans that you worked on, they weren't 4 designed to be delivered wrapped in a newspaper, were they? 5 A. I have no idea about that end of that operational plan. 6 MR. MAC MAHON: 7 THE COURT: 8 MR. OLSHAN: 9 THE COURT: 10 No further questions, Your Honor. All right, is there any redirect? Briefly, Your Honor. All right. REDIRECT EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. OLSHAN: 12 Q. 13 English parts list. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And I believe it was your testimony you couldn't recall 16 exactly, but you recall that there was some English as part of 17 the parts list? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Did this concept of compartmentalization and what one 20 Russian might know factor into whether it made sense to have 21 some English in the design, in the product? 22 A. Yes, that was certainly part of it. 23 Q. Can you elaborate on that just a little bit? 24 A. I can. 25 us, and I'm sure it was, sure it was limited, suggested that Mr. C., Mr. MacMahon just asked you a question about an Do you recall that? The, the operational concept that CIA shared with Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 55 of 254 PageID# 5053 Walter C. - Redirect 336 1 because this Russian nuclear fire set designer was now residing 2 in the U.S., that he would not have or never -- and never 3 really did have access to all the Russian part numbers that 4 would have gone into the TBA 480 Russian nuclear fire set 5 design. 6 Q. 7 trying to tell the Iranians about fire set components, would he 8 have access to Russian parts in the United States? 9 A. So if this Russian were in the United States and was He would not have. He would have -- logically, he would 10 have, and I think this was part of the operational concept, 11 logically he would have access to U.S. part numbers. 12 Q. And would those be in English? 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. OLSHAN: 15 THE COURT: 16 MR. MAC MAHON: 17 No further questions. All right, any recross? Just briefly, Your Honor. RECROSS EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. MAC MAHON: 19 Q. 20 engineer that posed and presented these plans to be someone 21 living in the United States? 22 A. Is this Merlin that we're talking -- 23 Q. Anyone. 24 proposition that they might have an American parts list for 25 things necessary for a nuclear weapon, the person that you were So as you understood it, the plan was to have the Russian When you were talking about the plan and the Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 56 of 254 PageID# 5054 Walter C. - Redirect 337 1 told about hypothetically would be someone that lived in the 2 United States; is that correct? 3 A. 4 apologize. 5 Q. Let me try again. 6 A. The person that we interacted with, the Russian nuclear 7 fire set designer, resided in the U.S. 8 Q. 9 to be delivered, correct? The person that -- I'm struggling with your question; I Right. It must not have been a good question. But it had to be something credible that was going 10 A. The design, the package that we put together? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. Yes, it had to be credible. 13 Q. And was the -- what you were told the plan was, that the 14 person who designed the -- it was to appear that the person who 15 designed the plan was living in the United States and that's 16 why they only had an English parts list? 17 A. 18 as to the reason that we did not have a complete Russian parts 19 list. That, that sounds like one of the logics that was provided 20 MR. MAC MAHON: 21 THE COURT: 22 Thank you. All right, is anybody going to call this witness again? 23 MR. OLSHAN: 24 THE COURT: 25 That's all, Your Honor. sir. No, Your Honor. All right, thank you for your testimony, You're free to go at this time, all right? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 57 of 254 PageID# 5055 338 1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor. 2 (Witness excused.) 3 THE COURT: All right, we'll call the next witness. 4 We'll go for about 20 minutes unless anybody needs a break 5 before then. Then we'll take our morning break, all right? 6 Mr. Trump? 7 MR. TRUMP: Your Honor, there was one point that came 8 up that we can take up at the next break or we can take up at 9 the bench. 10 11 12 THE COURT: Well, we have a witness on deck. Let's get the witness started. MR. TRUMP: Well, it may come up again, and so I 13 wanted to note an objection about something that was said that 14 may come up again. 15 THE COURT: Come up, come up to the bench. 16 Mr. Trump, is this a regular bench conference? 17 MR. TRUMP: Yes. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 (Bench conference on the record.) 20 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Trump? 21 MR. TRUMP: I believe Mr. MacMahon was referring to 22 what has been discussed in discovery and elsewhere as a public 23 document, NIE, a national intelligence estimate. 24 referring to it incorrectly, and I think if we refer to 25 documents like that, we should actually use the language in the He's Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 58 of 254 PageID# 5056 339 1 document and not some characterization of the language. 2 The document doesn't say that Iran never had a 3 nuclear weapons program, but that's the characterization that 4 Mr. MacMahon has put on it, so if we're going to refer to it, 5 I'm going to ask the Court that we actually refer to it 6 correctly in terms of the actual language of the document. 7 THE COURT: Well, raise that -- if it comes up in 8 another question improperly, make the objection then, all 9 right? 10 MR. MAC MAHON: 11 characterized it exactly correctly. 12 THE COURT: 13 MR. MAC MAHON: 14 MR. TRUMP: 19 It says they don't have a nuclear I didn't suggest -- I believe it said it halted the nuclear weapons program. 17 18 All right. weapons program as of the time of that. 15 16 And for the record, I think I THE COURT: I don't want to take up the jury's time right now. MR. MAC MAHON: Can I ask one other question? Your 20 Honor, and I know this is just as good a time as any to ask, 21 but some kind of sequence of witnesses would be helpful to the 22 defense so that we can get the files out. 23 THE COURT: Standard practice is to give the -- 24 MR. TRUMP: We've provided them all the -- 25 MR. MAC MAHON: But we don't know who the witness is Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 59 of 254 PageID# 5057 Robert S. - Direct 1 after Mr. S., and I didn't want to ask in front of the jury. 2 3 340 MR. TRUMP: They're the other screened witnesses. would be -- 4 THE COURT: 5 not do this now. 6 going to take? Well, we should have the order. Mr. S. is the next witness. Let's How long is he 7 MR. TRUMP: Several hours. 8 THE COURT: He'll be a good chunk of the day. 9 I don't want to keep the jury waiting. 10 MR. MAC MAHON: 11 THE COURT: 12 It Thank you. At our lunch break, we'll take care of it. 13 MR. MAC MAHON: 14 (End of bench conference.) 15 Thank you. ROBERT S., GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, AFFIRMED 16 DIRECT EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. TRUMP: 18 Q. 19 last initial. 20 A. Robert S. 21 Q. Are you sometimes known to your colleagues as Bob? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you have a college degree? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. What is your degree? Good morning, sir. Would you state your first name and Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 60 of 254 PageID# 5058 Robert S. - Direct 341 1 A. It's a history degree. 2 Q. Where did you get that degree? 3 A. Harvard College. 4 Q. And did you also obtain a master's degree? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. In what? 7 A. In history. 8 Q. Also from Harvard? 9 A. They gave me a scholarship, yes, sir. 10 Q. And you also have a Ph.D. from Harvard? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. At some point, did you begin working for the CIA? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Approximately when? 15 A. On the 2nd of July, 1979. 16 Q. And when did you officially retire from the, the CIA? 17 A. On the 31st of October, 2000. 18 Q. And what did you do at that point? 19 A. I worked as a consultant. 20 Q. Until when? 21 A. Until shortly after the September 11 attack in 2001. 22 Q. At that point, what happened? 23 A. I was asked by the CIA to return as a contractor. 24 Q. And for how long were you a contractor with the CIA? 25 A. I still am. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 61 of 254 PageID# 5059 Robert S. - Direct 342 1 Q. Do you know someone by the name of James Risen? 2 A. I don't know him. 3 Q. Have you ever met him? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Have you ever talked to him? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Have you ever provided him with any information? 8 A. No. 9 Q. When you started with the CIA in 1979, were you trained to 10 become an operations officer or case officer? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you receive operational training? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did you receive training in the importance of handling 15 classified information? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Including documents? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Did you receive refresher training on those documents? 20 A. Yes, as recently as December 2014. 21 Q. And do all case officers receive such training? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you, did you also receive training in the importance 24 of protecting the confidentiality of human assets? 25 A. Yes. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 62 of 254 PageID# 5060 Robert S. - Direct 343 1 Q. And what is a human asset? 2 A. It is an individual who volunteers to assist the CIA in 3 carrying out its mission of gathering foreign intelligence. 4 This would be a person who has access to that intelligence and 5 is willing to share it with the United States government. 6 Q. 7 confiden- -- excuse me, of a human asset with the CIA? 8 A. 9 company or whatever that the foreign individual belongs to And why is it important to protect the relationship of a Because the government or terrorist group or lab or 10 would take reprisals against him or her if they learned that 11 they were cooperating with the United States government and 12 sharing secrets. 13 Q. Now, were your first assignments overseas? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And your first assignment overseas lasted about how long? 16 A. Four years. 17 Q. Was that work as a case officer? 18 A. Yes, it was. 19 Q. As a case officer, was part of your work to identify and 20 recruit human assets? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And did you do that? 23 A. I did. 24 Q. And then once they're recruited, did you handle them? 25 A. I met them securely so that their cooperation with us Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 63 of 254 PageID# 5061 Robert S. - Direct 344 1 would not become known and talked to them and guided them and 2 collected information from them. 3 Q. 4 and handling of human assets? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Your second overseas assignment, how long was that? 7 A. Two years. 8 Q. Approximately when to when? 9 A. From 1985 to 1987. 10 Q. Again, were you a case officer? 11 A. I was. 12 Q. At some point during that period, did you, did you have an 13 emphasis in any particular area? 14 A. 15 particularly of nuclear weapons. 16 Q. 17 priority of the CIA? 18 A. 19 which was tasked to the CIA and other intelligence agencies. 20 Q. And has that priority continued until present day? 21 A. Yes, it has. 22 Q. In 1987, did you have a third overseas assignment? 23 A. I did. 24 Q. And what was that? 25 A. I was the deputy chief of a CIA office overseas. So in other words, you had experience in the recruitment Yes. That was an emphasis on counterproliferation, And is that -- was that at that time an intelligence Yes. It was an intelligence priority of the government, Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 64 of 254 PageID# 5062 Robert S. - Direct 345 1 Q. For how long? 2 A. For three years. 3 Q. Another overseas assignment after that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And what was that? 6 A. That was as the chief of a CIA office beginning in 1990 7 and continuing to 1993. 8 Q. 9 nonproliferation? During that period, did you again focus on nuclear 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And was there any particular country that you were focused 12 on at that time? 13 A. Iran. 14 Q. After 1993, did you return to the United States for a 15 period? 16 A. I did. 17 Q. What did you do beginning in 1993? 18 A. I was assigned as the CIA's representative on the faculty 19 of one of the senior military schools. 20 Q. Approximately what period of time was that? 21 A. '93 to '95. 22 Q. And what subjects were you teaching? 23 A. Because of the history Ph.D., they drafted me to teach 24 military history, but I also taught what I primarily came there 25 to teach, which is intelligence and its support for the war Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 65 of 254 PageID# 5063 Robert S. - Direct 346 1 fighter. 2 Q. 3 the CIA? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And when was that? 6 A. 1995. 7 Q. Did you go to work for the Counterproliferation Division 8 in 1995? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. As, as what? 11 A. As a senior operations officer assigned to come up with 12 new ways to collect intelligence. 13 Q. 14 Counterproliferation Division? 15 A. 16 to the United States on developing programs of weapons of mass 17 destruction and to slow their efforts where possible. 18 Q. 19 weapons? 20 A. 21 destruction, yes. 22 Q. 23 I'll call it CPD, Counterproliferation Division? 24 A. 25 offices to spot opportunities and to coordinate the Are you familiar with the Counterproliferation Division of I was one of its founders. Just generally, what was the mission of the To monitor the progress of countries potentially hostile And weapons of mass destruction would include nuclear Those are the most frightening weapons of mass And what does a, a senior operations officer do within, It was my responsibility to provide guidance to field Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 66 of 254 PageID# 5064 Robert S. - Direct 347 1 operational, the technical, and the legal aspects of being able 2 to do one of those operations in headquarters and with the 3 field offices. 4 Q. 5 with human assets? 6 A. 7 was not the direct case officer assigned to them. 8 the officers in the various field offices. 9 Q. And as such, did you again have experience with dealing Yes. I met many of them myself, although at that point, I Those were Now, I'd like to, I'd like to talk to someone that we've 10 been referring to as Merlin. Are you familiar with that 11 person? 12 A. Yes, I am. 13 Q. When did you first learn about Merlin? 14 A. In the autumn of 1996. 15 Q. From whom? 16 A. The person who wrote the message was Laurie D. 17 basically from her boss, who was a contact of mine. 18 suggested that she write that message. 19 Q. Were you aware that she was a case officer? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And did you respond to that message? 22 A. I did. 23 Q. And what was the purpose of this exchange between you and 24 Laurie D.? 25 A. It came He To set up a meeting where I could evaluate Merlin's Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 67 of 254 PageID# 5065 Robert S. - Direct 348 1 suitability for the kind of operation that I had in mind. 2 Q. Now, was "Merlin" his true name? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Without revealing what it was, but do human assets go by a 5 code name of some sort within the agency? 6 A. 7 true names. 8 Q. And why is that? 9 A. Or in our conversations among ourselves. 10 Q. Why is that? 11 A. Because it's an extra layer of source protection if, you 12 know, some inadvertent leak of one document is not going to 13 reveal the name of the human asset. 14 Q. 15 their code name is? 16 A. No, you do not. 17 Q. Did you know Merlin's true name? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And so back in 1996, did you meet him? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And what was the purpose in meeting with Merlin? 22 A. To assess his willingness and suitability to assist us in 23 a complex new operation that we were trying to put together. 24 Q. And what was your understanding of his background? 25 A. I understood that he was a nuclear engineer, with Yes. We never refer to them in official traffic by their And conversely, do you ever tell the human asset what Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 68 of 254 PageID# 5066 Robert S. - Direct 349 1 experience in the Soviet, the former Soviet nuclear weapons 2 program. 3 Q. 4 with? 5 A. 6 the more hands on and practical aspects of the program rather 7 than the theoretical. 8 Q. In layman's terms, was he an assembler? 9 A. He was an assembler rather than a designer. 10 Q. And he put together what? 11 A. He put together nuclear weapons in such a way that they 12 would function on command order and would not go off before you 13 wanted them to. 14 Q. And where did he do this? 15 A. He did this at Sarov, in Russia, at the facility known as 16 Arzamas-16. 17 Q. 18 nonproliferation, was that something that was familiar to you? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Was it your understanding that he had been debriefed 21 extensively by the CIA? 22 A. That was my understanding. 23 Q. Now, in terms of moving forward in the operation, was that 24 important that he had been debriefed? 25 A. And specifically, what type of engineering was he familiar He's an electrical engineer, and he was very familiar with And based upon all your experience in nuclear Yes, because that helped us very substantially to assess Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 69 of 254 PageID# 5067 Robert S. - Direct 350 1 that he was going to be helpful to us, that he was not sent by 2 the Russians. 3 Q. 4 important for you in evaluating whether to use him? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And as part of that assessment or part of the use of that 7 assessment, was that also in terms of his credibility? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. How does his debriefings play into whether you could use And the assessment by those who debriefed him, was that 10 him and you could rely on him and trust him? 11 A. 12 he had provided us true and incompatible information, something 13 that the Russians would never have let him release to us, and 14 this gave us confidence that we could trust him. 15 Q. 16 someone who could be trusted? 17 A. Yes, based on the assessment of the experts and of Ms. D. 18 Q. And what was your thinking at that time as to how you 19 could use Merlin operationally? 20 A. 21 drain; that is to say, the Soviet Union had collapsed its 22 nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction, people 23 were not being paid in many cases, and the government of Iran, 24 for example, was advertising for talent in those key areas. 25 our conclusion was that Merlin might be very attractive to the The assessment of the experts who debriefed him was that So as of 1996, you had a certain comfort level that he is This was a period of a great deal of concern about brain So Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 70 of 254 PageID# 5068 Robert S. - Direct 351 1 Iranians as a former Russian nuclear weapons engineer. They 2 might be very interested in talking with him. 3 Q. 4 something that was publicly known? 5 A. 6 WMD concern. 7 Q. Do you know what I mean by the term "legend"? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What do you mean by the term "legend"? 10 A. That is the story which has to be consistent from start to 11 finish that a human asset will tell to their targets to explain 12 who they are and what they are doing and what they are offering 13 and to make it credible that they have something that the 14 target country will be interested in. 15 Q. And did Merlin fit easily into a legend? 16 A. Yes. 17 engineer working at a less remunerative and desirable job in 18 the U.S. as a refugee who had extensive knowledge that he was 19 willing to exchange for money. 20 Q. 21 the time was, in fact, his legend? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Was there a second human asset that was involved in what 24 we will call Classified Program No. 1? 25 A. And when you say Iran was advertising, so that was Yes. They had Web sites looking for talent in areas of That is, a former unemployed Russian nuclear So in other words, his actual training, experience, job at Yes, there was. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 71 of 254 PageID# 5069 Robert S. - Direct 352 1 Q. And we call that person Human Asset No. 2. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. Was he also Russian? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And just briefly, what was his background? 6 A. He worked at another closed Soviet nuclear weapons 7 institute. 8 electronics packages that detonate nuclear weapons. 9 Q. So he was a designer? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Is that an accurate assessment? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And within this Classified Program No. 1, what was his, 14 his role? 15 A. 16 very desirable product to offer to the Iranians the plans for 17 the nuclear weapons fire set, which Human Asset 2 knew about 18 and had designed them, and our thought was that Human Asset 1 19 would deliver them. 20 personality. 21 take more risks. This is the one that designed and manufactured the Well, my technical colleagues thought that it would be a 22 Probably that was the question of He had a more aggressive personality and would A doer rather than a designer. MR. TRUMP: Your Honor, at this point, we would get 23 into some of the cables. 24 the break. 25 THE COURT: It may be a convenient time to take This is about when I said I would break Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 72 of 254 PageID# 5070 Robert S. - Direct 353 1 for the jury, so we'll have a -- since there are so many of 2 you, I'm going to give you 20 minutes for your mid-morning 3 break, and I'll have -- the witness needs to be back on the 4 stand at 11:30, all right? 5 We'll recess court at this time. 6 (Recess from 11:10 a.m., until 11:30 a.m.) 7 (Defendant and Jury present.) 8 9 10 MR. TRUMP: the break, but could we distribute those notebooks to the jurors, the ones sitting in the cart over there? 11 12 I apologize for not asking in advance of THE COURT: All right. Mr. Wood, if you would assist in getting the notebooks to the jurors? 13 And again, ladies and gentlemen, remember our 14 procedure, that you are not to open the book until directed to 15 turn to a particular tab. 16 17 All right, Mr. S., you're still under affirmation from your previous testimony. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 THE COURT: Go ahead. 20 MR. TRUMP: Thank you, Judge. 21 Q. Just so we have the terminology straight as we go through 22 some of these cables and have properly identified people, Human 23 Asset No. 1 is the person we're referring to as Merlin; is that 24 correct? 25 A. Yes. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 73 of 254 PageID# 5071 Robert S. - Direct 354 1 Q. And Human Asset No. 2 was the second Russian who was 2 working with the lab, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you know someone by the name of Walt C.? 5 A. I do. 6 Q. And who is Walt C.? 7 A. He was the program manager for the lab who evaluated the 8 design of the fire set plans and oversaw the effort to suborn 9 them so that they would look authentic but not, in fact, 10 operate. 11 Q. 12 time? 13 A. Yes, regularly. 14 Q. And then also in some of these documents, is there someone 15 by the name of William F.? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And was he part of the Counterproliferation Division? 18 A. He was. 19 technical person who was responsible for the relationship with 20 Walt C. and his lab and responsible for making sure that the 21 product was technically sound. 22 Q. 23 Shedd. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Who was David Shedd during this? And you had face-to-face contact with Walt C. from time to He was the Counterproliferation Division's And someone else identified in some of the cables is David Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 74 of 254 PageID# 5072 Robert S. - Direct 355 1 A. He was my direct supervisor. 2 of operations in the Counterproliferation Division. 3 At that point, he was chief If I could explain, Mr. F. had the responsibility for 4 the technology; Mr. Shedd had the responsibility for the 5 approvals, legal and policy; and I had the responsibility for 6 the operation. 7 Q. Now, prior to trial, have you reviewed a number of cables? 8 A. Yes. 9 MR. TRUMP: Unless there's any objection, I'll 10 identify the cables that we'll be looking at, and again, if 11 there's objection -- 12 THE COURT: 13 All right, just read their numbers, and we'll see if there's any objection to any of them. 14 MR. TRUMP: What I'm going to be referring to are 15 cables 5 through 25, 27, 29 through 33, 35 through 38, and 44 16 through 47. 17 THE COURT: Now, these are cable numbers, not 19 MR. TRUMP: These are government exhibits. 20 THE COURT: Government exhibits, all right. 18 21 22 exhibit -- Any objection to any of those? MR. POLLACK: Your Honor, given the witness's tenure 23 with the program, it's my assumption that these are all cables 24 that he would have had access to at the time and have firsthand 25 knowledge of it. If that's the record, I don't have any Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 75 of 254 PageID# 5073 Robert S. - Direct 1 objection. 2 3 356 MR. TRUMP: I was going to establish that in a THE COURT: All right, all right. second. 4 Then assuming that 5 that's been established, we'll admit all of them. 6 BY MR. TRUMP: 7 Q. 8 become government exhibits, were these cables that were part of 9 Classified Program No. 1? All of the cables that, that you have looked at that have 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And as the senior operations/senior case officer with 12 respect to that program -- let me back up. 13 And they were all cables that were routed to and from 14 the Counterproliferation Division? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. As such, you were either the author or the recipient in 17 some capacity of all of these cables; is that right? 18 A. That is right. 19 Q. And they were all stored and maintained as part of the 20 cabinet, the file for Classified Program No. 1? 21 A. Yes, in an encrypted electronic file. 22 Q. And you're familiar either again as, as the sender or 23 recipient with respect to all of these? 24 A. 25 Yes. THE COURT: They're all admitted. So just for the Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 76 of 254 PageID# 5074 Robert S. - Direct 357 1 record, 5 through 25, 27, 29 through -- and that means 2 including -- 33, 35 through and including 38, 44 through and 3 including 47, they're in. 4 (Government's Exhibit Nos. 5 through 25, 27, 29 5 through 33, 35 through 38, and 44 through 47 were received in 6 evidence.) 7 MR. TRUMP: 8 47. 9 Q. 43 through -- excuse me, no, 44 through Would you please describe the general outline of 10 Classified Program No. 1 as it stood in January of 1997? 11 A. 12 that I laid out: 13 approval. 14 use. 15 identified a potential human asset who could help us with this 16 program, and we were aware of the steps that we would need to 17 take to get the legal and policy approval before we could 18 proceed to actually do it. We were just starting in January 1997 on all three tracks the operational, the technical, and the We had identified a technology that we wanted to It still needed to be corrupted by the lab. 19 We had So January '97 was the beginning of the operation. 20 Q. Do you have in front of you Government Exhibit 5? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And would you turn to that, please? 23 THE COURT: 24 tab 5 now, please. 25 BY MR. TRUMP: All right, ladies and gentlemen, turn to Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 77 of 254 PageID# 5075 Robert S. - Direct 358 1 Q. And as you stated, all of these cables would have been 2 marked in some fashion as a limited access program? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Those markings have been removed from, from these 5 documents, correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. But anyone looking at them would realize immediately that 8 this is one such program? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And, and why is that? 11 A. Because the activity and the technology and the people 12 that we were using were all sensitive, so we added additional 13 layers of protection to the normal cable traffic. 14 Q. 15 have access to this program? 16 A. No, just those who were read into it. 17 Q. And just so we understand the significance of these 18 documents, what -- how would you describe a cable? 19 in terms of the recordkeeping of the CIA? 20 A. 21 over a classified telephone line, you can have conversations in 22 person, you can send informal notes, but only when that, the 23 result of those conversations is recorded in a cable does it 24 become the official record of the organization. 25 Q. Would everyone within the Counterproliferation Division It is the official record. What is it You can have conversations And for this program, if you wanted to task a field case Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 78 of 254 PageID# 5076 Robert S. - Direct 359 1 officer with something, would you do it in a cable? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And if a field officer wanted advice or to consult with 4 you regarding Classified Program No. 1, it would be done in a 5 cable? 6 A. 7 officer, because even though at that point I was the equivalent 8 of a full colonel, as you can imagine, in CIA headquarters, 9 there are a lot of generals, so nobody can by himself establish Right. And this is not me sending a message to one field 10 a policy, and that applies in the field as well. It would be 11 reviewed by the supervisors both of me and of whoever in the 12 field was answering or writing their own cable. 13 the checks and balances. 14 Q. And each cable was dated; is that right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And with the help of Mr. Francisco, just so we know where 17 to find this information on a cable, where is the date of the 18 cable on Exhibit 5? 19 A. 20 So that's the 6th of January, at 2025 Zulu, meaning five hours 21 later than 2025, so this was sent out probably early on the 22 morning of the 26th electronically. 23 Q. And the cable has a To line? 24 A. It does. 25 Q. And this label was to Langley. It's part of It's up at the very top, where it says "062025 January." So that was to CPD -- Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 79 of 254 PageID# 5077 Robert S. - Direct 360 1 A. From one of the field offices. 2 Q. And it concerns Classified Program No. 1, correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And that information is in the cable? 5 If something has to be done, do you find it in the 6 action required portion of the cable? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And where is that reflected in terms of this? 9 A. It's paragraph 1, "Action required: Please process 10 app" -- approval -- "for Merlin based on the following 11 information. 12 meeting with asset submitted in separate cables." 13 Q. 14 a difference between the way that cables are composed and 15 released at headquarters versus the field? 16 A. Essentially, no. 17 Q. In terms of -- 18 A. There may be fewer people, fewer levels of oversight in 19 the field, perhaps just one or two people, whereas in 20 headquarters there might be five or six. 21 practice was if it was going to a particular area of the world, 22 the office there, then you would coordinate it with the senior 23 person in that area of responsibility and headquarters, but 24 basically, the process is similar in, in headquarters and the 25 field. Agreement and summary of 5 December 96 OPS Now, there's some information -- let me back up. Is there In headquarters, the Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 80 of 254 PageID# 5078 Robert S. - Direct 361 1 Q. Now, you mentioned there's action required. What is, what 2 is being asked for in this cable in paragraph 1? 3 A. 4 use of Merlin in Classified Program 1. 5 Q. 6 Merlin? 7 A. 8 meeting. 9 Q. And is that reflected in paragraph 2? 10 A. Yes. 11 relationship with, with Merlin. 12 Q. 13 would be Ms. D., correct? 14 A. Ms. D. 15 Q. And CPD officers, was that including you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And then what is reflected in paragraph 3? 18 A. This is a brief description of, of what we intended to ask 19 Merlin to do. 20 Q. And in paragraph 4, what is paragraph 4 all about? 21 A. This is Ms. D.'s assessment of Merlin's personality, 22 character, and suitability to perform these operational tasks 23 that we were going to ask him to do. 24 Q. Did you concur in her assessment? 25 A. Yes. It is asking headquarters to make a formal approval of the And did this cable get generated after you met with Yes. And that's the reference to the 5 December '96 ops Well, this is Ms. D. laying out the history of her And it says in December 1996, the case officer. That Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 81 of 254 PageID# 5079 Robert S. - Direct 362 1 Q. When you say personality necessary for these tasks as it 2 applies to Merlin, what was that? 3 A. 4 designer, and the other was a doer. 5 had the chutzpah to actually approach the Iranians rather than 6 just thinking and designing in a safe environment in the United 7 States. 8 character that would let him take some risks on our behalf. 9 Q. As I said in reference to the other asset, one was a Merlin is the doer, who So that's a matter of personality. He had the, the Now, in the middle of that paragraph, she describes 10 "subject." 11 A. Um-hum. 12 Q. And she writes that he appears on the surface to be a 13 narrowly focused individual, with the stereotypical 14 engineering/technical mindset, but he is a person of more depth 15 and breadth than what appears. 16 who will take his job or in this case his operational duties 17 very seriously and will be conscientious in completing them. 18 That would be Merlin, correct? He is a serious-minded person Did you confer in her assessment as reflected in this 19 cable? 20 A. 21 On the surface, partly it's a language problem. 22 been in the U.S. for a few years at that point, and his English 23 was still not very strong, but he comes across initially as 24 just an engineer, but once you get to know him, he's extremely 25 thoughtful. Yes, explicitly. She hit it right on the, on the head. He had only There are many levels of depth in his thinking. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 82 of 254 PageID# 5080 Robert S. - Direct 363 1 So she's very accurate in describing his personality. 2 Q. 3 relationship with the CIA as a business relationship. 4 A. Right. 5 Q. Again, did you concur in that assessment? 6 A. I did. 7 expected for him to perform as tasked, and I think with a few 8 hiccups along the way, I think both sides were satisfied with 9 the business relationship. And she also describes that he understands his He expected for us to compensate him, and we 10 Q. And in terms of your meeting with him and this 11 arrangement, was it also understood that you would protect his 12 identity? 13 A. 14 either him or us. 15 would protect the fact that he was assisting us in this rather 16 bold operation. 17 identity and his cooperation with us. 18 Q. 19 is that important? 20 A. 21 countries' or government or laboratories' or terrorist groups' 22 secrets doesn't go according to plan, and very often, you get a 23 curve ball thrown at you, and you have to be able to adapt, and 24 that's what Laurie was referring to in he's a person of greater 25 depth. Yes. We met him in places that were not associated with We undertook explicitly with him that we We undertook explicitly to protect his She also writes that he can work with some ambiguity. Because this is not a linear business. Why Stealing foreign Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 83 of 254 PageID# 5081 Robert S. - Direct 1 364 He appeared to want everything strictly scripted, but 2 when it got off the script for one reason or another, he was 3 able to cope with it. 4 Q. 5 to live with the fact that he didn't know everything? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And were you concerned about that? 8 A. No. 9 we would only be sharing part of all of our plans and Now, at times during this operation, was he going to have I mean, we told him explicitly from the outset that 10 intentions with him, and he was comfortable with that. Partly 11 it was for his protection because he didn't need to know a lot 12 of things that might make him more vulnerable. 13 Q. 14 aware of his relationship with the CIA. 15 understanding as well? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Had you met her from time to time? 18 A. Not at this point. 19 Q. But that he would not share details of the operation with 20 her. 21 A. Right. 22 Q. Was that -- 23 A. She was aware of a relationship, but he would not share 24 with her details of what exactly he was doing. 25 agreement. And finally, she advised in this cable that his wife is Was that your Eventually, I did. That was our And as far as I know, he kept that until we told Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 84 of 254 PageID# 5082 Robert S. - Direct 365 1 him it was all right to share parts of it with her. 2 Q. 3 given complete knowledge of the operation. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Why was that important to you and the CIA? 6 A. There are various reasons. 7 try to -- you can always -- you can never un-tell a person a 8 secret. 9 can't un-tell them, and we did not want to share with him our 10 complex technical plans n part because he was going in harm's 11 way. 12 and frankly, the less he knew about the technical capabilities 13 of the United States National Laboratories, the better. Now, you mentioned that from time to time, he would not be The first and foremost is we You can tell them later if it's necessary, but you He was going to be in the reach of the Iranian regime, 14 It would also make it much easier for him to do his 15 job if he didn't have to worry about not revealing any secrets 16 since he didn't know them. 17 Q. 18 might be captured or taken by a foreign government? 19 A. 20 country, that is their territory. 21 territory. 22 there was the risk that they could have clapped handcuffs on 23 him and kept him and dragged him back to Iran, and he was aware 24 of that as a potential risk, and under those circumstances, the 25 less he knew about highly sensitive United States government Did you also have to consider the possibility that he Yes. Walking into a foreign country's embassy in whatever That is their sovereign So there was the risk, minimal in most cases, but Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 85 of 254 PageID# 5083 Robert S. - Direct 1 366 technical capabilities, the better. 2 He already knew about Russian-sensitive technical 3 capabilities. We didn't want him to be in a position of having 4 to protect American ones as well. 5 Q. Now, would you turn to Exhibit 6? 6 A. Yes, it is. 7 Q. And what is the date of that cable? 8 A. The 28th of May, '97. 9 Q. Now, what were -- what was going on with the operation Is that another cable? 10 between January and May 1997? 11 A. 12 at the laboratory, and Mr. W. was developing the personal and 13 professional relationship with Merlin better and beginning to 14 guide Merlin towards ways to contact the Iranians that would 15 appear natural. 16 The technical work was proceeding under Mr. C.'s direction We knew two or three people in the Iranian nuclear 17 weapons enterprise that we could have sent him to directly, but 18 then how would he explain that? 19 spend a couple of years obviously looking and foundering around 20 a bit so that when he did contact them, they would say, "Oh, 21 yeah, this guy's been trying to get in touch with us for two 22 years, and I guess he finally found us," rather than say, "Huh, 23 the CIA or Mossad must have sent him." 24 Q. 25 cable was generated from where? So instead, we needed him to Before we talk about Mr. W, let's back up a second. This Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 86 of 254 PageID# 5084 Robert S. - Direct 367 1 A. From our headquarters, from Langley. 2 Q. And in addition to the information at the top of the page 3 where it says "To: 4 information at the bottom at the end of the cable. 5 look at that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And what information does that reflect in terms of you, 8 Mr. S.? 9 A. Well, I have been meeting with Human Asset 2 and the -- 10 Q. Just the technical stuff at the bottom, at the end of the 11 cable. 12 A. At the very end. 13 Q. At the very end of the second page of the cable. 14 "ORIG: 15 A. 16 another CIA officer. 17 Q. What does "authorized" mean? 18 A. The initial sanity check. 19 it to someone else familiar with the operation who does an 20 initial sanity check. 21 Q. And what does "COORD" mean? 22 A. Coordination. 23 technical lead, and to, to other officers who had 24 responsibility for the area to which we were sending this 25 message. CIA Office 1" and "CIA Office 2," there is Would you It says CP/" and then "Mr. S." Okay. I drafted this cable, and then it was authorized by You write something. You show That meant that it went to Mr. F., the Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 87 of 254 PageID# 5085 Robert S. - Direct 368 1 Q. And then what does "REL" mean? 2 A. Released. 3 Q. And again, that has your initial there? 4 A. Yes. 5 three other colleagues. 6 Q. And what is the subject matter of this particular cable? 7 A. An evaluation of Merlin and plans to introduce a new case 8 officer. 9 Q. And was that the introduction of Mr. W.? 10 A. It was. 11 Q. That's Zach W.? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. In other words, Ms. D., Laurie D., is on her way out? 14 A. She's going to a new assignment. 15 Q. And Zach W. is on his way in? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Paragraph 3 reflects what aspect of the, the operation? 18 A. This is the progress on the technical side under the 19 direction of Mr. F. on the CIA side and Mr. C. on the 20 laboratory side. 21 Q. 22 correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And "Per the lab experts," do you see that in paragraph 3? 25 The second sentence. I released it after it had been coordinated with And what does -- in this cable, you're writing it, Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 88 of 254 PageID# 5086 Robert S. - Direct 369 1 A. Yes, okay. 2 Q. Would you read that second sentence? 3 A. "Per the lab experts, Human Asset 2 has provided excellent 4 assistance in their design of a copy of the Russian TBA-486 5 fire set" -- that's a typo on my part. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. ". . . allowing them to build a breadboard model which 8 C/O's saw tested successfully." 9 It's 480, not 486. And continue. Continue? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. "They are very pleased with his cooperation and believe 12 they will be able to conduct a highly credible, though fatally 13 flawed, knock-off of the TBA-486 design by early 1998, well 14 within our projected operational deadline. 15 has been red-teamed by another (unwitting) group of lab experts 16 and they certify that it cannot work or be made to work, we 17 will provide it to M with a suitable explanation as feed 18 material for his contact with the Iranians, continuing to 19 stress that collection is our primary goal and steering him 20 away from any notion that the design is flawed." 21 Q. 22 to -- 23 A. To the New York office. 24 Q. To the New York office. 25 A. And others. Okay. Just stop right there. Once this design So this cable was going out Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 89 of 254 PageID# 5087 Robert S. - Direct 370 1 Q. And others. 2 A. And its purpose is, quote, for the record, to give an 3 update as to where the operation stood as of the time of 4 its writing. 5 Q. 6 operation stands on the technical side? 7 A. 8 responsible for the handling of Merlin and for carrying forward 9 the operation from, from that perspective. Why is it important that Mr. W., Zach W. knows where the Because as soon as the change occurs, he will be 10 Q. In this cable, you used the term "fire set"? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Have you also used the term "firing set"? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Is there any difference in your mind between the two 15 terms? 16 A. 17 automatic block and a high-voltage block. 18 are essentially interchangeable. 19 Q. 20 is that right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And beginning at the top of the second page, would you 23 read what the goals of the operation are? 24 A. 25 information on the Iranian nuclear weapons program, sending No, there isn't. And the Russians also call it both an All of those terms The cable goes on to summarize the goals of the operation; "The goal is to plant this substantial piece of deception Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 90 of 254 PageID# 5088 Robert S. - Direct 371 1 them down blind alleys, wasting their time and money, and 2 discrediting Russian designs and equipment in their eyes. 3 terminology and list of parts are sufficiently specific that we 4 stand a good chance of learning whether the Iranians have in 5 fact adopted the design and are trying to make it work. 6 lab scientists" -- 7 Q. 8 the goals are as of that date? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And again, you're informing Zach W. and the other people 11 involved of that fact? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. And continuing? 14 A. "The lab scientists expressed their confidence that with 15 Human Asset 2's cooperation, they can create a highly credible 16 Russian design which will never function. 17 operational concept here is deception. 18 set of plans rather than hardware, since it is not credible 19 that M and his shadow partner, Human Asset 2, would actually 20 have access to this highly controlled piece of a Russian 21 nuclear weapon." 22 Q. 23 to actually give them a piece of equipment, right? 24 A. 25 the U.S. national nuclear laboratories so that they look good Just stop there. The Is that an accurate description of what And also the official record. Stop there. Oh, no. The Note that the whole We will be offering a So in other words, there's, there's no intent It is plans which have been subverted by one of Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 91 of 254 PageID# 5089 Robert S. - Direct 372 1 but will never work. 2 Q. 3 paragraph 3, what is that all about? 4 A. 5 potential benefits that could come from it. 6 Q. 7 balance of paragraph 3 a first generation weapon, even if it 8 were not intentionally flawed by the lab. 9 in there, is that another fail-safe of what you're doing? And without reading aloud, the balance of that paragraph, It explains why we are doing this and some of the But it -- let me be more specific. Yes. You discuss in the That, that language 10 A. The design that we were going to give them, even 11 without its flaws, would have been essentially useless because 12 it was a circa 1980 design, and the Iranians were still back at 13 the 1950 level, and even if we hadn't subverted it, they would 14 have an extremely difficult time trying to make this work on a 15 first generation weapon. 16 Q. 17 nuclear secrets? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. As a result of getting a cable like this, Mr. Zach W., the 20 case officer, would be apprised of the status of the operation, 21 the goals of the operation, what was done at the lab, how the 22 lab worked with the schematics, and all those details? 23 those in this cable? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Would you turn to Government Exhibit 7? So it's another level of fail-safe. So another layer of assurance that we weren't giving away He gets What is that? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 92 of 254 PageID# 5090 Robert S. - Direct 373 1 A. 2 which I attended on the 15th of January, 1998. 3 Q. Let me back up a second. 4 A. Yes, it's another cable. 5 Q. And again, for the record, what is the date of the cable? 6 A. The 2nd of February, 1998. 7 Q. Was it a cable that you prepared or at least were part of 8 the preparation of? 9 A. 10 This is a summary of the laboratory technical review, Let me just check. It's another cable? I think I prepared it, but it could be Mr. F. 11 Yes, this was prepared by someone working closely 12 with me. 13 Q. And you reviewed it prior to its release? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Is this one of these cables that is for the record, 16 providing information about the status of the program? 17 A. 18 record what the status of the operation was as of that date, 19 but it also provides information to, to Zach W. at this point 20 as to where we're going and how he needs to prepare Merlin. 21 Q. 22 technical team at the lab? 23 A. 24 design of the Russian fire set, and they had inserted multiple 25 nested flaws of various types into the plans. Well, it serves a dual purpose. It does establish for the And in paragraph 2, that's the status of the, the We met with them on January 15. They had completed their Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 93 of 254 PageID# 5091 Robert S. - Direct 374 1 Q. Now, in this paragraph 2, you correct the typo, and it's 2 TBA-480? 3 A. TBA-480, yes. 4 Q. But you also refer to it as a firing set rather than a 5 fire set; is that right? 6 A. They're interchangeable terms. 7 Q. And paragraph 3, what does that discuss? 8 A. The plans to take what Human Asset 2 has designed and it 9 has been corrupted by the lab experts to include a very 10 substantial number of inherent technical flaws. It will now be 11 given to another group of laboratory experts who do not know 12 where this came from and do not know that their colleagues have 13 corrupted it, and they will be asked to evaluate it and try to 14 make it work. 15 Q. 16 ahead with this, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And having this whole Red Team effort was important in 19 terms of getting those approvals? 20 A. 21 that we would be asked to demonstrate that, in fact, the plans 22 were highly credible but equally important that they could not 23 be made to function. 24 Q. And paragraph 4 reflects what? 25 A. That we had informed the lab leadership that we needed a Now, at some point, you're going to need approvals to go Yes. It's one step in the technical approval process, Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 94 of 254 PageID# 5092 Robert S. - Direct 375 1 statement that the firing step plans are not and cannot be 2 enabling technology for the target, and this is crucial to our 3 obtaining the approval to proceed. 4 Q. 5 within CPD, correct? 6 A. Yes, as a start. 7 Q. And then up to the most senior levels of the CIA, correct? 8 A. Right, including on the legal side. 9 Q. The -- paragraph 5, what does that involve? 10 A. That we as a fail-safe were going to show Human Asset 2, 11 the designer of this plans -- this set of plans, the corrupted 12 plans that the lab had worked over, and see if he spotted 13 anything. 14 Q. 15 level officials that there would be no ability by Iran to make 16 use of this in developing a detonation device? 17 A. 18 work, and the second half was to make sure that the flaws were 19 invisible, and we thought that by showing it to the designer, 20 that would be a very good fail-safe because he would know 21 better than anybody else. 22 Q. And by the designer, this is Human Asset No. 2? 23 A. Human Asset 2, yes. 24 Q. Not Merlin? 25 A. Right. And the types of approval we're talking about are, are And -- And this was again another way of assuring you and senior Yes. That's half of it, to make sure that it wouldn't Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 95 of 254 PageID# 5093 Robert S. - Direct 376 1 Q. As part of this operation, was -- did Human Asset 2 ever 2 meet Merlin or vice versa? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Why was that? 5 A. To protect both of them. 6 harm's way. 7 actually know him. 8 risk that he could be forced to betray him. 9 Q. Again, Merlin was going in He had a legend of Human Asset 2, but he didn't He could not describe him. There was no Now, would you turn to Government Exhibit 8? Do you have 10 that in front of you? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Is that another cable? 13 A. It is. 14 Q. What is the date of that cable? 15 A. 15 April 1998. 16 Q. So from February through April, February being the date of 17 the last cable, to April, just give us a run-down of what is 18 going on with Classified Program No. 1. 19 A. 20 side. 21 prospective Iranian targets on the Internet and by sending 22 old-fashioned snail mail letters, and the Red Team at the lab 23 has had its opportunity to review the plans, and we're going to 24 meet them and get their formal read-out. 25 Q. We're proceeding on both the operational and technical At Mr. W.'s direction, Merlin is reaching out to Let's talk about the, the letter for a second. This is a Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 96 of 254 PageID# 5094 Robert S. - Direct 377 1 cable written by you, correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And it's directed to Mr. W.? 4 A. Um-hum. 5 THE COURT: 6 THE WITNESS: You have to say yes or no. Yes. 7 BY MR. TRUMP: 8 Q. Had you received a draft letter from Mr. W.? 9 A. Have I -- 10 Q. Had you received -- 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- a draft letter? 13 And what, what was Mr. W. asking for? 14 A. He was asking for my input on the letter that had been 15 drafted by him and Merlin as one of the series of letters that 16 Merlin would be sending out to Iranian institutions and 17 individuals. 18 Q. 19 there will be little response, since he looks like just one 20 more Russian engineer begging for a job, but we might get 21 lucky." 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Were you expecting some sort of immediate response from 24 this effort by Merlin to reach out to the Iranian community? 25 A. And in this cable, in paragraph 2, you say, "We suspect No. Is that right? That was an honest assessment. We thought an immediate response would be suspicious Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 97 of 254 PageID# 5095 Robert S. - Direct 378 1 if there were one. 2 Q. Any -- was there any set timetable for getting a response? 3 A. No. 4 Q. And in some instances -- and were you willing to wait 5 months, if not years, for the operation to play out? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And I think you already mentioned the balance of that 8 paragraph 2 concerns the status of the effort by the lab? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And the certification required to get the approvals? 11 A. To begin the approval process, we need their certification 12 on the soundness of the technology. These operations require patience. 13 MR. TRUMP: The Court's indulgence? 14 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 15 BY MR. TRUMP: 16 Q. 17 the outreach to the Iranian community, was Merlin being 18 apprised of what was going on in the lab? 19 A. 20 what it was he would be offering. 21 Q. 22 process of developing these, these plans? 23 A. No. 24 Q. The actual process? 25 A. No. When you were working with Mr. W. and Merlin on the reach, Only in the most general sense. We had not yet told him And in that respect, did you ever tell him about the We never told him about the inherent flaws and the Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 98 of 254 PageID# 5096 Robert S. - Direct 379 1 whole process of building those in and checking that they were 2 effective but, but still invisible. 3 Q. Why not? 4 A. We did not want him to know about the technical changes we 5 had made to the fire set plans. 6 would give him additional knowledge that he had to protect, and 7 it would probably make him more nervous in approaching the 8 Iranians if he knew that. 9 Q. And turn to Government Exhibit 9. 10 A. It is. 11 Q. What is the date of that cable? 12 A. 15 May '98. 13 Q. Where did this cable originate? 14 A. Langley. 15 Q. And were you the releasing officer on this cable? 16 A. Let me look. 17 We never told him that. As I explained before, it Is that another cable? I was. 18 Q. So this is going out from CPD to field officers? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And at the time, again, Zach W. is the case officer 21 working with, with Merlin? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What is discussed in the first part of this cable, 24 paragraph 2? 25 A. The results of the red-teaming of the flawed plans. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 99 of 254 PageID# 5097 Robert S. - Direct 380 1 Q. And just very briefly, what was the result of the Red 2 Team's -- 3 A. 4 They did not spot that they had been flawed. 5 there were some mistakes in them. 6 some of those mistakes and get a laboratory breadboard version 7 of the plans to work. 8 Q. 9 to Mr. Zach W., you're informing him of where it stands with The Red Team thought they were genuine Russian plans. They thought They were able to correct And you are -- by drafting this cable and sending it out 10 respect to the lab? 11 A. 12 record. 13 Q. 14 involving Merlin? 15 A. 16 institution or person that, as I describe here, a nibble. 17 show initial interest. 18 Q. 19 front of you? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What is the date of that cable? 22 A. 29 October 1998. 23 Q. Again, where did, where did this cable originate? 24 A. This is, this is from Langley to the New York office. 25 Q. Okay. Right. And also, again, entering this into the formal Paragraph 6, had Mr. W. reported to you about something Yes. Merlin had gotten a response from an Iranian And would you turn to Exhibit 10? They Do you have that in Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 100 of 254 PageID# 5098 Robert S. - Direct No, wait. 381 1 A. Sorry, this is from the New York office to 2 Langley. 3 Q. And what is this cable informing Langley, Langley and CPD? 4 A. That there had been a meeting between Mr. W. and Merlin, 5 that he was continuing his efforts to reach out to Iranians, 6 that plans had been made and accepted for a meeting in San 7 Francisco where we would be introducing the technology to 8 Merlin, and that Merlin had also been told that Mr. W. was 9 leaving and we would introduce a new case officer. 10 Q. And who was that new case officer? 11 A. Mr. Sterling. 12 Q. And did you know Mr. Sterling at that time? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What was Mr. Sterling doing in October of 1998? 15 A. He was preparing for his assignment in New York. 16 Q. Was he assigned to the Counterproliferation Division? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And is that where you met him? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And do you see Mr. Sterling here in court today? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 24 25 MR. POLLACK: Your Honor, Mr. Sterling will remain Mr. Sterling throughout the trial. THE COURT: I understand that, but it's important for witnesses to make sure that -- it is important for the record Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 101 of 254 PageID# 5099 Robert S. - Direct 382 1 that a witness knows about whom he is speaking, so I'm going to 2 permit that. 3 BY MR. TRUMP: 4 Q. 5 from Mr. W. to Mr. Sterling. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did you assist Mr. Sterling in getting up to speed on 8 Classified Program No. 1? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Prior to his assignment to this program, he was in the 11 Counterproliferation Division, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did he have access to the files, the documents, the cables 14 relating to Classified Program No. 1 before he was assigned to 15 it? 16 A. 17 officer. 18 Q. 19 able to review the file? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And that would have included the prior cables that we've 22 already discussed here this morning? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What, what did you ask him to do with respect to 25 Classified Program 1 in preparation for his role as the case Now, you mentioned that laying the groundwork for a change Not until it was determined that he would be the new case Once he was assigned as the new case officer, was he then Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 102 of 254 PageID# 5100 Robert S. - Direct 383 1 officer? 2 A. 3 that arose from that reading. 4 Q. And as far as you know, is that what was done? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did the two of you talk about it? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What was the, the purpose of having a meeting in San 9 Francisco? To read the entire case file and to ask me any questions 10 A. There were a number of issues here. 11 where we were going to introduce to Merlin what it was he would 12 be offering to the Iranians. 13 what he would be offering. 14 The first is this is We hadn't told him anything about San Francisco also contributed strongly to the 15 legend. There were a large number of Russians in that area in 16 1998. 17 had met Human Asset 2 in San Francisco somewhere in the Russian 18 community there, and we wanted the opportunity for Merlin and 19 Mrs. Merlin to meet Mr. Sterling and get comfortable with 20 starting a new relationship with a new officer. 21 Q. 22 how Merlin would have met Human Asset No. 2, but he's not going 23 to actually meet him, correct? 24 A. 25 role. It would be natural for Merlin to be able to say that he Now, you said that part of the purpose would be to explain No, but we provided him a counterpart that would play that Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 103 of 254 PageID# 5101 Robert S. - Direct 384 1 Q. Was -- were you the person who would -- who made the 2 decision to assign Mr. Sterling to this, this program? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Were you confident by the time of the meeting in San 5 Francisco that he was fully aware of the program and the status 6 of the program at that time? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Would this include the details about Merlin and his 9 background, things like that? Yes. He seemed quite engaged and interested in it. 10 A. We discussed all of that, and anything that -- any 11 question that he had, I answered. 12 Q. 13 with that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. On balance, could you tell whether he had any greater 16 interest in the operational versus technical or -- 17 A. 18 he was more interested in the operational, but I can't 19 speculate. 20 Q. 21 of you? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Is that another cable? 24 A. It is. 25 Q. And what is the date of that cable? What about the technical side? Did he familiarize himself It's all in the traffic, and I explained it to him. Well, like me, he's an operations officer, and I presume Would you turn to Exhibit 11? Do you have that in front Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 104 of 254 PageID# 5102 Robert S. - Direct 385 1 A. 5 November '98. 2 Q. And who is getting that cable? 3 A. The cable is going to Office 3, info Office 2. 4 Q. And Office 2 is the New York office? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And that's where Zach W. is? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Where is Mr. Sterling in November of 1998? 9 A. He's still at Langley. 10 Q. And what is the purpose of sending out this cable? 11 A. It announces that we will be traveling to San Francisco 12 for the purpose of that meeting. 13 Q. 14 reflected in Government Exhibit 11? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you go over the plan for the meeting with the 17 defendant at CPD? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And, so he was aware of what was to take place in San 20 Francisco? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What was -- who from the CIA was, was going to be present 23 in San Francisco? 24 A. 25 officer with a unique background in that he's a native Russian And did you, in fact, travel to San Francisco on the dates Myself; Mr. Sterling; Mr. W.; and Mr. G., who is a case Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 105 of 254 PageID# 5103 Robert S. - Direct 386 1 speaker and an electrical engineer. 2 Q. And was he known to Merlin as Len? 3 A. Yes. 4 We had him play the role of Human Asset 2 for Merlin. 5 6 THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Yes. THE COURT: 10 He knew that Len was a CIA THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? He knew that Len was a CIA colleague rather than the actual Human Asset 2. 12 THE COURT: 13 THE WITNESS: 14 Is that -- colleague rather than the actual Human Asset 2. 9 11 So Merlin understood Len to be a fellow former Russian scientist? 7 8 And he was the person in contact with Human Asset 2. Oh, so -- oh, all right. We told him to think about Len when he was describing Human Asset 2 to the Iranians. 15 THE COURT: I see, all right. 16 BY MR. TRUMP: 17 Q. 18 explain Human Asset No. 2, he would, he would have a visual 19 image of someone and a background of someone to explain that 20 credibly? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And that was going to be Len? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. But he knew that Len worked for the CIA? 25 A. Right. In other words, if for some reason Merlin ever had to Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 106 of 254 PageID# 5104 Robert S. - Direct 387 1 Q. How long was -- how many days were spent in San Francisco? 2 A. Three, I think. 3 Q. And you traveled there. 4 A. Mr. Sterling, Mr. W., and Mr. G. 5 Q. And what about Merlin? 6 A. Oh, and Merlin and Mrs. Merlin separately from us. 7 Q. They traveled separately from the CIA personnel, correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And again, why is that? 10 A. Even within the United States, we wouldn't want them on 11 the same flight list. 12 Q. Again, to protect their association with the CIA? 13 A. Their cooperation with the CIA, yes. 14 Q. And what was roughly the schedule for meeting in San 15 Francisco? 16 A. 17 the following morning, the, the men, because Mrs. Merlin was 18 shopping at that point, the men got together to discuss the 19 legend and the technology. 20 Q. 21 meetings? 22 A. No. 23 Q. At these, at these meetings, was the defendant, 24 Mr. Sterling, introduced to Merlin for the first time? 25 A. Who else? Well, we had a social meeting first, a dinner, and then on So Mrs. Merlin was not part of any of the operational Yes. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 107 of 254 PageID# 5105 Robert S. - Direct 388 1 Q. And what was explained to him in terms of this, this 2 change from Zach W. to Mr. Sterling, to Mr. Sterling? 3 A. 4 this was not a surprise to him, and he accepted it readily, the 5 change. 6 Q. And based on your observation, did the change go well? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Now, in terms of the operational meetings, what was it 9 that you explained to Merlin? Well, Merlin already knew that Zach would be moving on, so He was used to that by now. I think there was good rapport. 10 A. That the disinformation that we would have him give to the 11 Iranians was a Russian fire set design. 12 Q. 13 Francisco that you were going to show Merlin? 14 A. 15 of the fire set, and then a parts list and the schematic. 16 Q. And did you give that to Merlin to review? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Who actually gave it to him? 19 A. I don't recall exactly which one of us did, but it would 20 have been me or Mr. G. 21 Q. And did he review it? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. For how long? 24 A. About two minutes. 25 Q. And did he make any comments or observations about what And what did it consist of at -- what did you have in San We had schematics and a CAD/CAM, computer assisted drawing Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 108 of 254 PageID# 5106 Robert S. - Direct 389 1 was given to him? 2 A. He said, "This won't work." 3 Q. And did he explain himself? 4 A. I said, "Well, what do you mean, Merlin?" 5 He said, "Well, you've left out a couple of key 6 components. They're in the parts list, but they aren't in the 7 schematic or the drawing, and the way this is presented, it 8 won't work." 9 Q. Were you aware that there were, there were things missing 10 on the schematics? 11 A. 12 the whole device. 13 Q. And so was his response expected? 14 A. Yes. 15 has to have the last word and be smarter than everyone else, so 16 he was quite pleased with himself for having determined what, 17 in fact, we wanted him to determine, that the plans would not 18 work as presented. 19 Q. 20 plans? 21 A. 22 If you're going to leave out these two key components from the 23 schematic and the drawing, why do you name them in the parts 24 list? 25 list." Yes. It was our intention, of course, not to give them And it fits with his personality, the engineer who Was there any further discussion of, of these, these Yes. I told him that his concern -- he then said, "Okay. Maybe it would be better not to put them in the parts Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 109 of 254 PageID# 5107 Robert S. - Direct 1 And I said, "Okay. 390 We will go back to the designer 2 and the laboratory that helped us make this design and ask them 3 if this is the right way they intend it to be presented." 4 And right in front of Merlin, I tasked Mr. G. first 5 to check with Human Asset 2 and then to follow up with the 6 laboratory. 7 Q. 8 schematics, were those important parts of the diagram, of the 9 schematics? The -- without identifying the missing items on the 10 A. Yes. And they were major subcomponents which anyone would 11 know had to be in a fire set design but which the particular 12 designer did not know how to build because he had worked in a 13 different part of the institute. 14 part of the veracity of this stuff, that he wouldn't have known 15 how to make those. 16 Q. 17 there more than one meeting over these schematics -- 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. At any time during your discussions, did Merlin express a 20 concern that there were any sort of embedded flaws or secret 21 flaws in the design? 22 A. 23 the purpose was to present incomplete plans and have him be 24 able to say to the Iranians, "Okay. 25 you need, and it's accurate, but when you want the other 15 So that was an additional Now, at any point during -- let me back up a second. Was We talked about them for the next couple of days. No, no. He came to accept what we explained to him, that Here's 85 percent of what Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 110 of 254 PageID# 5108 Robert S. - Direct 391 1 percent that you're going to need to make this work, that's 2 when I get paid." 3 And he had accepted that. He did not at that point 4 or at any other point until I explained to him after the 5 publication of State of War spot or know about the laboratory 6 efforts to flaw the plans. 7 Q. 8 Mr. Sterling, come to you with any concerns about Merlin's 9 reaction to the schematics? Now, at any time during these meetings, did the defendant, 10 A. Yes, he did. 11 Q. And what, what was that discussion all about? 12 A. This is his first encounter with Merlin, and he was 13 clearly a little taken aback that Merlin had been, Merlin had 14 been a little dismissive and kind of a wiseguy about, well, 15 this won't work, and he said, "Is this going to be a problem?" 16 And I said, "Well, that's Merlin. We will check with 17 Human Asset 2 and the lab to make sure that this is what they 18 intended, but if it is, we're going to stick with that, and 19 you're going to have to bring Merlin around to accepting it, 20 which I think he's already on the way because he now 21 understands the incompleteness is an advantage." 22 Q. Was this conversation between the two of you? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Were Len or Mr. W. privy to that conversation? 25 A. No. They were in the far side of the room talking about Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 111 of 254 PageID# 5109 Robert S. - Direct 392 1 something else, as I recall. 2 Q. 3 what was your assessment in terms of Merlin's comfort level 4 with the plan of this operation? 5 A. 6 the first thing he would need was our response from Human Asset 7 2 and the lab saying that this was what our scientists 8 intended, but that basically he was going to do as we wanted 9 him to do. By the time you finished your meetings in San Francisco, He was going to need some additional encouragement, and 10 Q. So how was it left with Merlin at the conclusion of the 11 San Francisco meetings? 12 A. 13 perceptive ability to look at, you know, complex electronic 14 schematics and so on, and assess that they were incomplete. 15 thanked him for his pointing that out to us, and that we would 16 check with the people who had designed it to make sure that was 17 their intention, and we would advise him of the results. 18 Q. And was it your intention to check? 19 A. Yes, and we did check. 20 Q. Now, during the San Francisco trip, did you spend any time 21 socializing with Merlin and Mrs. Merlin? 22 A. 23 after the formal meetings had concluded, Mr. Sterling and I 24 took them on a trip to Wine Country. 25 Q. That we were checking. Yes. We thanked him for his very We We had a couple of dinners, and then on the morning And where did you go? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 112 of 254 PageID# 5110 Robert S. - Direct 393 1 A. We went to Healdsburg in Sonoma County. I prefer Sonoma 2 wines to Napa wines. 3 Q. And who accompanied you on that trip? 4 A. It was a party of four: 5 Mrs. Merlin. 6 Q. Where was Zach W.? 7 A. He had gone back to New York. 8 he needed to attend to. 9 Q. And Len didn't go along either? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Turn to Government Exhibit 13. 12 Government Exhibit 12, do you have that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What's, what's the date of Government Exhibit 12? 15 A. 9 November '98. 16 Q. Is this simply a cable confirming the travel arrangements 17 for the three people that -- 18 A. 19 traveling from the agency. 20 Q. And then Government Exhibit 13? 21 A. Government Exhibit 13 is a write-up of the meeting in San 22 Francisco done by Mr. W. once he returned to New York. 23 Q. And you were the recipient of this cable? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, as a matter of practice, if you participate in an myself, Mr. Sterling, and Mr. and I was the designated driver. He had other meetings that Well, first of all, It's providing the identities of the people who will be Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 113 of 254 PageID# 5111 Robert S. - Direct 394 1 event such as these meetings, somebody else wrote up a summary 2 and sent it to you by cable, if, if there was something 3 incorrect or misstated or left out that you thought was 4 important, what, what would you do? 5 A. 6 particularly in something as significant as this meeting. 7 Q. 8 how would that correction be made? 9 A. I would gently and politely correct my colleague, If the cable had already been released and sent to you, I would send the message back and say: I appreciate your 10 detailed write-up. Wish to note for the record that in 11 addition, such-and-such happened, or my recollection is 12 somewhat different, to put an inflection on it. 13 need to note that this happened. 14 Q. And you would do that by cable? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, what is the date of Government Exhibit 13? 17 A. The 17th of November, 1998. 18 Q. And that was a cable sent by Mr. W. to you at CPD and 19 others working on Classified Program No. 1? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And that would have included Mr. Sterling? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Paragraph 2, does that reflect the purpose of the meeting, 24 as you've already described? 25 A. I think we Yes. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 114 of 254 PageID# 5112 Robert S. - Direct 395 1 Q. 2 opportunity to introduce Merlin to the defendant, Mr. Sterling? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Mr. W. characterized the meetings as, as having gone very 5 well. 6 A. I do. 7 Q. And then it says in paragraph 2, "M raised several 8 questions about the plans and the accompanying technical 9 specifications which Mr. G. will be following up on shortly. 10 To brief him on the fire set plans and to take the Do you concur in that assessment? All parties" -- and it goes on from there. 11 Is that what you're referring to when you testified 12 about his comments about the missing items on the schematics? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. In paragraph 3, again, does that reflect a little bit more 15 detail about the concerns that Merlin raised with respect to 16 the schematics? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And it summarizes what you said about having Mr. G. 19 contact the other Russian to resolve those questions? 20 A. Right. 21 Q. Specifically, it says, "M raised several clarifying 22 questions, and Mr. G. scheduled a session with Human Asset No. 23 2 to obtain the answers." 24 A. Right. 25 Q. In paragraph 4, does Mr. W. summarize the, both the legend Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 115 of 254 PageID# 5113 Robert S. - Direct 396 1 for Merlin in terms of marketing the plans and the fact that 2 they were supposed to be incomplete? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And the fact that this incompleteness was part of the 5 operation so that they would come back to Merlin and pay him 6 for more information? 7 A. 8 you could never make a bomb work with these plans, was designed 9 to be Merlin's excuse why he would just give them to the The incompletion, in addition to serving the purpose that 10 Iranians. It was like the demonstration version of software, 11 not entirely enabled, and when you wanted all of the features 12 of the software, you had to buy the license, and we actually 13 used that, that language to explain it to Merlin, who was very 14 adept at software issues. 15 Q. 16 No. 2 while you were in San Francisco? 17 A. He did. 18 Q. Is that follow-up then reflected in paragraph 5? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And what did Mr. G. report back to you and M, 21 Mr. Sterling, Zach W. as to what Human Asset No. 2 had said? 22 A. 23 part of the plan. 24 subversions, so obviously, we didn't go anywhere near that with 25 him. Now, paragraph 5, did Mr. G. follow up with Human Asset Human Asset 2 agreed that leaving out those key parts was He did not know either about the Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 116 of 254 PageID# 5114 Robert S. - Direct 397 1 Q. And again, Mr. G. said that he would follow up with the 2 lab for a more, a more complete answer? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And that's reflected in Mr. W.'s write-up? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And finally, what does it say in paragraph 6 about -- 7 A. It says that on the 15th of November, Mr. W. returned to 8 New York as Sterling and I took the Merlins on a car trip into 9 Wine Country. 10 Q. And does the cable reflect Sonoma County? 11 A. It does not. 12 Q. Did you create any other document or record or are you 13 aware of any other document or record that identifies Sonoma 14 County as the place you took Mr. and Mrs. Merlin and the 15 defendant, Mr. Sterling, during your trip to San Francisco? 16 A. 17 If I had been writing this trip summary cable, I probably would 18 have noted it, but Mr. W. wrote it, and he didn't know. 19 wasn't there. 20 Q. He knew you were planning to go, but he didn't know where? 21 A. Know where. 22 the trip. 23 Q. 24 Is that another cable? 25 A. I did not create one, and I'm not aware of another one. He And that was a decision I made the morning of And would you turn to the next government exhibit, No. 14? Yes. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 117 of 254 PageID# 5115 Robert S. - Direct 398 1 Q. And what is the date of that cable? 2 A. 25 November '98. 3 Q. And again, was this a cable sent out from CPD? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And did you actually draft this cable? 6 A. Let me check. 7 Yes, I did. 8 Q. And who was it being sent to? 9 A. It was being sent to the New York office. 10 Q. And Mr. W. is still in New York at this point? 11 A. He is, and he's still responsible for Merlin. 12 Q. Does this cable reflect the follow-up that you promised 13 Merlin? 14 A. It does. 15 Q. And in paragraph 2, Mr. C., is that Walt C.? 16 A. It is. 17 Q. Was he the person who provided the, the follow-up 18 information? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And that was then reported to you by, by Mr. G.? 21 A. No. 22 called "CP" on the secure phone to provide his feedback. 23 Q. So you got it directly from Mr. C.? 24 A. Directly from Mr. C. 25 Q. And your job was then to communicate it to Zach W. so he Mr. G. had already contacted Mr. C., and Mr. C. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 118 of 254 PageID# 5116 Robert S. - Direct 399 1 could communicate it to, to Merlin? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. And what was it that you learned from Mr. C. that you 4 wanted Mr. W. to tell Merlin? 5 A. 6 certain assemblies on the parts list but not on the schematic 7 was indeed intentional, with the goal of suggesting that the 8 anonymous fire set designer knew that these two assemblies 9 (component 1 and component 2) were essential, but did not know I will read it. "As we had suspected, the inclusion of 10 how to make or spec them in any detail. In fact, these two 11 components were designed in different parts of Human Asset 12 2's institute, and he does not know how to make them, which is 13 fortunate since they are two of the hardest parts of a fire set 14 to design and build." 15 Q. 16 to satisfy Merlin's concerns as to the discrepancy between the 17 schematic, which had left out certain information, and the 18 parts list, which had included certain information? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Mr. Merlin had suggested perhaps there should be some 21 changes made between the schematics and the parts list; is that 22 fair? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What did the lab tell you about any suggested changes? 25 A. ". . . per agreement between CP officers and Mr. C., we And so that information from the National Laboratories was Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 119 of 254 PageID# 5117 Robert S. - Direct 400 1 will make no changes to the plans and lists unless a serious 2 discrepancy arises." 3 Q. 4 changes were made? 5 A. 6 of this and suggest that he acknowledge the omission to the 7 Iranians and say it is part of our story that we're only 8 offering them part of what they will need for free, with 9 follow-up details available later for the right price. So Mr. W. had to go back to Merlin and explain why no Yes. In fact, in this cable, I ask him to advise Merlin 10 Q. Mr. Sterling, the defendant, is at CPD at this time? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And he's read into the program? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. So he was familiar or had access to this cable as well? 15 A. In fact, he coordinated on it. 16 Q. And how do you know that? 17 A. Because his name is there on the bottom of the cable as 18 one of the coordinators. 19 Q. And that's on the second page of the cable? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And again, when you coordinate the cables, is that before 22 it actually goes out? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And what is the responsibility of the coordinator? 25 A. To make sure the cable is accurate. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 120 of 254 PageID# 5118 Robert S. - Direct 401 1 Q. So by coordinating on that cable, Mr. Sterling was 2 representing that this cable was accurate before it went to 3 Mr. W.? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. The coordinator on a cable, if there is something amiss, 6 there's something wrong or something missing that is important, 7 can the coordinator edit and change? 8 A. 9 dozen feet from me and could have raised an objection verbally, 10 but the coordinator can also edit the cable, and then it was my 11 job as the releaser to take into account whatever the 12 coordinator had said. 13 Q. 14 concerns at this point with this cable or any other aspect of 15 the operation? 16 A. No. 17 Q. As far as you know, he was comfortable with the way it was 18 proceeding? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you were comfortable that he was up to speed and knew 21 all the necessary details of the operation? 22 A. 23 established at the outset. 24 Q. 25 date of that cable? Yes. The coordinator in this case was also sitting a And as far as you know, Mr. Sterling did not raise any Yes. And I was pleased with the rapport he and Merlin had The next exhibit is Government Exhibit 15. What is the Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 121 of 254 PageID# 5119 Robert S. - Direct 402 1 A. 11 December '98. 2 Q. And that cable was sent to what office? 3 A. It was sent to Langley. 4 Q. From New York? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And what is the subject of this cable? 7 A. The actual change of case officer meeting that occurred on 8 the 10th of December, that would have involved Mr. W. and 9 Mr. Sterling and Merlin. 10 Q. And is part of the discussion of this cable the follow-up 11 that we just discussed in cable, Government Exhibit 14? 12 A. 13 results of our conversation with the laboratory. 14 Q. 15 logistical issues were discussed in that, that paragraph? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Is that also to keep you informed of what is going on with 18 Merlin and New York? 19 A. 20 details as well as the substantive. 21 Q. Even some of the administrative and logistical issues? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And paragraph 3, is that the paragraph that discusses what 24 the defendant and Mr. W. told Merlin by way of follow-up to his 25 questions in San Francisco? Yes. Mr. W. and Mr. Sterling described to Merlin the Now, the first paragraph of the cable, paragraph 2, some Yes. It is part of the SOP to record the operational Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 122 of 254 PageID# 5120 Robert S. - Direct 403 1 A. Yes, it is. 2 Q. And what was it that he was told? 3 A. He was told that it makes sense for the designer of the 4 fire set to know that certain parts, mainly nuclear components 5 1 and 2, are included within a fire set design, but that he 6 would not necessarily know how to configure such elements. 7 other words, the designer knows what they are and where they go 8 in the schematic, but he would not know how to design such 9 parts himself, therefore negating them from the parts list. 10 In For the most part, Merlin accepted this explanation 11 and seemed comfortable with it. Ever the engineer, Merlin then 12 suggested that if the discrepancy shall remain, then maybe it 13 would make better sense to have the schematic compiled noting 14 Russian parts and have the parts list provide only very brief, 15 uninformative descriptions, and so on. 16 second-guessing. 17 Q. And this cable comes back to you -- 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. -- so that you can address the concerns that Merlin 20 brought up at the meeting? 21 A. They're not really concerns at this point. 22 Q. Suggestions? 23 A. They're suggestions. 24 Q. Now -- 25 A. And these suggestions were potentially good ones that we Merlin is Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 123 of 254 PageID# 5121 Robert S. - Direct 1 404 listened to. 2 MR. TRUMP: The Court's indulgence? 3 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 4 BY MR. TRUMP: 5 Q. 6 reverse? 7 A. Yes, he did. 8 Q. -- he was -- 9 A. About the -- 10 Q. Excuse me. 11 told about the difference between the schematics and the parts 12 list? 13 A. 14 parts list would. 15 here. 16 Q. In the cable, he reversed the discussion of that? 17 A. Well, he reversed where the missing pieces would show up 18 and where they wouldn't. 19 Q. 20 concern was something that was missing from the schematics but 21 included on the parts list? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And that's what was tasked to the lab? 24 A. That's what was tasked to the lab, and that is what was 25 and remained in the plans. In looking at Exhibit 15, did, did Mr. W. get it in In other words -- Just in Exhibit 14, what was he, what was he That the schematics would not be complete, whereas the And Mr. W. appears to have got that reversed But based upon what Merlin had said in San Francisco, his Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 124 of 254 PageID# 5122 Robert S. - Direct 405 1 Q. Discussion in paragraph 4 of this cable, is this getting 2 back to the operational use of Merlin -- 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. -- rather than -- 5 A. His outreach to the Iranians. 6 Q. And again, was that something that was communicated to you 7 as a routine part of keeping you informed of what Merlin's 8 doing and the results of his outreach? 9 A. Yes. And they were looking for my comments and 10 suggestions, just as I was looking for theirs. 11 Q. 12 issues that had to be resolved? 13 A. 14 things forever, rather than the American, it's broken, throw it 15 out and get a new one. 16 computer to work and spending inordinate amounts of time and 17 money with it in the repair shop instead of just buying a new 18 one, which we would have paid for. 19 Q. 20 about computers in 1998, correct? 21 A. '98 and '99, yes. 22 Q. And that's a far cry from what you can do today? 23 A. It's modems and a very much more basic Internet, yes. 24 Q. Paragraph 7, what is being communicated to you there in 25 paragraph 7? In 5, is this another one of those sort of logistical Right. I mean, Merlin came from a culture where you fixed So he was struggling to get his And just to give the jury the perspective, we're talking Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 125 of 254 PageID# 5123 Robert S. - Direct 406 1 A. That the New York case officers feel that the operation is 2 proceeding nicely with Merlin, though Merlin's engineer-esque 3 perspective will likely continue throughout this project, feel 4 that Merlin is clearly showing signs of comfort and remains 5 eager to undertake this operation. 6 Q. 7 reluctance or concern or worry being expressed by Merlin as to 8 the design of the operation at this point? 9 A. So according to the New York case officers, there's no No. 10 MR. POLLACK: Your Honor, I've allowed a lot of 11 leading to move it along, but I think we're doing too much on 12 direct. 13 THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection. MR. TRUMP: I was just trying to move it along, 17 THE COURT: I know. 18 MR. TRUMP: I think everybody's getting hungry so -- 19 THE COURT: You've got five minutes. 14 leading. 15 16 That's Judge. 20 BY MR. TRUMP: 21 Q. 22 to Merlin's willingness to proceed in this operation? 23 A. 24 demonstrating it by the fact that he's doing more outreach to 25 the Iranians. What were the case officers expressing to you with respect They were expressing Merlin's willingness to proceed and Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 126 of 254 PageID# 5124 Robert S. - Direct 407 1 Q. And if a case officer, either Zach W. or Mr. Sterling, 2 thought that there was any unwillingness or concern about 3 Merlin's continued support for the operation, would they be 4 obligated to, to inform you of that? 5 A. Yes, they would. 6 Q. Would that be an important detail that you as the senior 7 manager would have to take into account? 8 A. 9 somebody else, because his willingness and cooperation and Yes. And if Merlin were unwilling, I would have to find 10 spirit of adventure, if you will, were crucial to doing this. 11 If he were slacking in his, his willingness, then I would have 12 to rethink the whole thing. 13 Q. 14 parts? 15 A. 16 their reasons for doing it the way they did. 17 they wanted to put the parts in English and -- or at least to 18 stipulate English/American/Japanese parts because the Russian 19 parts no longer existed. 20 nuclear weapons program from ten years earlier, and if you 21 wanted to build this, you couldn't call up Radio Shack and 22 order the parts from the Russian parts. 23 the small electronic pieces in the West, and the lab thought 24 that it would be better to keep them that way. 25 Q. Did you take up the issue of Russian parts versus other We had already discussed that with the lab, and they had Fundamentally, They were all part of a classified You could get most of Now, as of -- the cable here, Exhibit 15, is as of Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 127 of 254 PageID# 5125 Robert S. - Direct 408 1 December 11. 2 A. 3 still have been in, in, physically in the Washington area. I'm not sure. 4 5 He was there for this meeting. MR. TRUMP: THE COURT: Your Honor, is that a convenient place to All right, Mr. Trump's obviously very hungry. 8 (Laughter.) 9 THE COURT: So we will have our lunch break now. 10 It's one hour, ladies and gentlemen. 11 here promptly at 2:00. 12 go outside if you want to get lunch. 14 back here by two, all right? 15 table. Just make sure you're Leave your notebooks on your (Jury out.) THE COURT: And you may go back. Thank you, sir. And please be back here at 2:00. 19 20 You can I want to stay in session for a second. 16 18 I'll ask you to be back You're not required to stay in the building. 13 17 He might take a break, or do you want to plow forward? 6 7 Had Mr. Sterling moved to New York yet? (Witness stood down.) THE COURT: All right, before I let you go for lunch, 21 I gave you at the break a note we got from Juror No. 41. 22 always pleased when I get that type of a note from a juror 23 because it shows how conscientious they are. 24 25 I'm I don't see any problem with what has been written. Does anybody have any issues with that situation? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 128 of 254 PageID# 5126 409 1 2 MR. POLLACK: Not on behalf of Mr. Sterling, Your Honor. 3 MR. TRUMP: No, Your Honor. 4 THE COURT: All right, then the note is just going to 5 be made a part of the record at this point, and, Ms. Gunning, I 6 want to see you in chambers for a second, all right? 7 Other than that, you-all have a one-hour lunch break. 8 Yes, is there another issue? 9 MR. OLSHAN: Your Honor, one other brief issue: 10 Before the -- or during the last break, one of the attorneys 11 from the CIA, who is sitting on this side of the courtroom, 12 mentioned to me that he noticed one of the jurors, I don't know 13 the name or the number, but I believe he's in seat 5 in the 14 first row, is on the board of the lawyer's son's soccer league, 15 and the lawyer has met him, he believes, one time, but did not 16 make eye contact, didn't communicate, just mentioned to me that 17 he knew this individual. 18 THE COURT: Well, but that attorney was never 19 identified as a participant in the trial. 20 knows, you know -- I don't see a concern about that. 21 anybody? 22 MR. OLSHAN: 23 THE COURT: 24 MR. MAC MAHON: 25 THE COURT: I doubt anybody even Does I just wanted to put it on the record. All right, that's fine. That's fine. Not from what we know, Your Honor. I'm sorry? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 129 of 254 PageID# 5127 410 1 2 MR. MAC MAHON: Not from what we know it doesn't sound like a problem. 3 THE COURT: No, it shouldn't be a problem, but again, 4 I appreciate you keeping us advised as to any issues of that 5 sort. 6 All right, we'll recess until 2:00. 7 MR. OLSHAN: 8 Thank you. (Recess from 1:02 p.m., until 2:00 p.m.) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 130 of 254 PageID# 5128 Robert S. - Direct 1 411 A F T E R N O O N 2 S E S S I O N (Defendant and Jury present.) 3 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Trump? 4 MR. TRUMP: Thank you, Your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Before you get started, I would just like 6 to thank Juror 41 for her note. 7 appreciate your bringing any issues to our attention. 8 you very much. 9 There's no problem, but we Thank ROBERT S., GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, PREVIOUSLY AFFIRMED 10 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Cont'd.) 11 BY MR. TRUMP: 12 Q. Mr. S., do you have the exhibits in front of you? 13 A. I do. 14 Q. Turn to Government Exhibit 16. 15 of you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What is the date of that cable? 18 A. 18 December '98. 19 Q. Who is that from? 20 A. From Langley. 21 Q. To where? 22 A. To two CIA field offices, one of them being New York. 23 Q. And was this a cable that you wrote? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And who coordinated on this cable? Do you have that in front Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 131 of 254 PageID# 5129 Robert S. - Direct 412 1 A. Mr. Sterling and it was released by, well, there's a 2 couple of other officers identified only by number here, I 3 don't recall who they were, but Mr. Sterling by name and 4 Mr. Shedd by name. 5 Q. And again, Mr. Shedd was who? 6 A. He was the chief of operations for Counterproliferation 7 Division and my boss. 8 Q. 9 that indicate he was still at CPD, or could he have been in New The fact that Mr. Sterling coordinated on this cable, does 10 York by this point? 11 A. It indicates he was still at Langley. 12 Q. Now, the fact that he coordinated on the cable indicates 13 what? 14 A. That he had read it and did not object to it. 15 Q. What action is required with respect to this cable? 16 A. Comments of these two CIA offices on the proposals laid 17 out below. 18 Q. 19 in the operation? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And the overall plan, the purpose, the lack, the 22 background of Merlin, that sort of thing? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And that goes into paragraph 3 as well? 25 A. Yes. And the second paragraph sort of summarizes where you are Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 132 of 254 PageID# 5130 Robert S. - Direct 413 1 Q. At this point, an Iranian subject had been identified? 2 A. Yes, someone who we thought would be good to approach. 3 Q. And at the top of the second page, paragraph 4, this 4 person will be going to where? 5 A. I didn't hear the last part. 6 Q. Where would this person be approached? 7 A. In Vienna. 8 Q. Was this the first time in the cable traffic you're 9 talking about an approach in Vienna? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And what does the rest of that paragraph discuss? 12 A. It discusses the efforts of Merlin to make contact with 13 the Iranians and our scenario of what might happen when he 14 approaches Iranian Subject 1. 15 Q. 16 What's that? 17 A. 18 else. 19 that way. 20 Q. 21 you had provided previously of software being a demonstration 22 version but accurate but not complete, correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And that's actually in this cable? 25 A. It is. And would -- you characterize this as a walk-in scenario. He's not going to be introduced to the Iranian by anyone He's just going to bump into him and make his approach Now, in this cable, I believe you discuss the example that Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 133 of 254 PageID# 5131 Robert S. - Direct 414 1 Q. What do you say about your expectations in handing over 2 these documents on a walk-in scenario? 3 A. 4 contact Merlin via his post office box and then pay him 5 handsomely. 6 simply accepts the story and the plans and sends them back for 7 study, since this will be a successful plant of disinformation. 8 Q. 9 much better situation than having Merlin travel to, to Iran, That if the Iranians want the rest of the story, they can In fact, we will be satisfied if Iranian Subject 1 And a walk-in scenario in Vienna is preferable -- is a 10 for example? 11 A. That was out of the question. 12 Q. And why was that? 13 A. It would most likely be a one-way trip. 14 Q. In paragraph 5, what do you -- you indicate this is just a 15 preliminary thought? 16 A. 17 and any ideas they might have on how to make this work better. 18 Q. Is this something you discussed with the defendant? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. At this time, did you believe you had a, a good rapport 21 with the defendant? 22 A. I believed I did. 23 Q. And that he was handling his duties competently and 24 satisfactorily as far as you were concerned? 25 A. Yes. I was soliciting their suggestions and their input That was my impression for the rest of the time that he Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 134 of 254 PageID# 5132 Robert S. - Direct 415 1 and I worked together, that he was doing a good job. 2 Q. Did he confide with you with respect to other matters? 3 A. He occasionally made comments about his frustration with 4 various other issues, yes. 5 Q. 6 details, the plans, anything dealing with Classified Program 7 No. 1? 8 A. 9 difficult behavior. But he never expressed any concerns about the operational His only expressions of concern were Merlin's occasional 10 Q. And those difficulties generally surrounded around what? 11 A. Around money, when Merlin thought he had been paid less 12 than he should be and so on and so on. 13 periodically. 14 Merlin's. 15 Q. 16 with Merlin on these issues? 17 A. Yes, indeed. 18 Q. If you thought otherwise, would you have taken steps to 19 remedy it? 20 A. 21 would have been pretty much forced to raise it with his 22 management after consulting mine, but there were no problems 23 with the defendant's performance. 24 Q. 25 another cable? These came up Our recordkeeping was a lot better than And did you think the defendant did a credible job dealing I would have -- given the significance of the operation, I And would you turn to Government Exhibit 17? Is that Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 135 of 254 PageID# 5133 Robert S. - Direct 416 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And what is the date of that cable? 3 A. 19 January '99. 4 Q. And it's from where? 5 A. It's from the New York office. 6 Q. And it's to CPD? 7 A. At Langley, yes. 8 Q. And that would include you? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What does this cable report on? 11 A. It reports Mr. Sterling's first solo meeting with Merlin 12 after the departure of Mr. W. and the advice that Mr. Sterling 13 was giving to him on how to be successful in his approach to 14 the Iranians. 15 Q. And is that discussed in paragraph 3? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And in paragraph 4, what information does the defendant 18 provide to you in this cable? 19 A. 20 particular Iranian institution. 21 Q. And he, and he copies that directly into the cable? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And is that a good practice so that you can get the 24 information accurately? 25 A. The exchange, brief exchange between Merlin and a Yes. Not just so that I can get it accurately but so that Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 136 of 254 PageID# 5134 Robert S. - Direct 417 1 there's on the record what Merlin is saying to the Iranians and 2 what the Iranians are saying to Merlin. 3 Q. 4 with the pace of, of the operation? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And what does the defendant explain to him? 7 A. He explains to him that the project is a rather 8 time-consuming effort and that results may not be quickly 9 forthcoming. And paragraph 5, is Merlin getting a little frustrated 10 Q. In other words, he should have some patience? 11 A. What Merlin didn't know is that we were engaged in a 12 lengthy and detailed approval process, and that slowed down the 13 operational pace. 14 we still needed the formal certifications of its soundness, all 15 of which is involved in the approval process. 16 Q. 17 paragraph 8 that there's some rapport building going on between 18 the defendant and, and Merlin? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And that is something that you encouraged? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And paragraph 10, what does the defendant report to you 23 about his assessment of Merlin and the status of the, of the 24 program? 25 A. The technical work was essentially done, but And the cable also reflects towards the end that, in He states that C/O, that Mr. Sterling is encouraged that Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 137 of 254 PageID# 5135 Robert S. - Direct 418 1 Merlin continues to show an eagerness and resourcefulness with 2 regard to the project. 3 he is understanding of the fact that this is the nature of the 4 project. 5 Internet and letters and scheduled the next meeting for the 2nd 6 of February. 7 Q. 8 that he's having any difficulty getting Merlin to get himself 9 out there and do -- send e-mails, letters, things like that? Though he has been somewhat frustrated, C/O instructed Merlin to continue his effort via the No expression at all from Mr. Sterling, from the defendant 10 A. No. 11 Q. When Merlin shows up with documents, those are documents 12 from his computer or his -- 13 A. 14 the Iranians, and then with letters and e-mails the Iranians 15 might have sent to him. 16 Q. 17 would they be maintained securely? 18 A. Yes, in the, in the office. 19 Q. Why is, why is it necessary to secure them within the 20 office? 21 A. 22 connections between someone resident in the United States and 23 the Iranian authorities suggesting that the U.S. resident has 24 some valuable information he wants to share with the Iranians, 25 and that would be very alerting if it fell into the wrong Right. He shows up with drafts of letters and e-mails to If those documents are to be maintained by case officer, Well, to bring them into the office because they detail Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 138 of 254 PageID# 5136 Robert S. - Direct 419 1 hands, so it needs to be secured. 2 Q. 3 connection between Merlin and the CIA? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And between Merlin and the operation? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. A compromise of that document, for example, to the, to the 8 Iranians would compromise Merlin? 9 A. So in, in your hands, that document establishes a Well, if the Iranians learned that he was sharing his 10 e-mails with the CIA, that would be the end of the operation. 11 Q. 12 operation? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Go to Exhibit No. 18, please. 15 cable? 16 A. 4th of February, 1999. 17 Q. And is this a cable sent -- 18 A. From the New York office -- 19 Q. Who's it to? 20 A. To Langley. 21 Q. Who's it from? 22 A. The New York office. 23 Q. And that would be from Mr. Sterling? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And you received this cable at headquarters? Would it also provide evidence of the methods of the What's the date of this Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 139 of 254 PageID# 5137 Robert S. - Direct 420 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And again, what's -- what information is the defendant 3 conveying to you in this cable? 4 A. 5 Iranian institution, and they asked for his resume and 6 additional information. 7 receiving a response but noted some hesitancy in the direction 8 the project should now take. 9 type of response that should be sent to the Iranian That Merlin had received positive responses from an Merlin was excited about finally C/O and Merlin then discussed the 10 institution. 11 Q. 12 with Merlin at this time? 13 A. 14 doing. 15 Q. 16 those e-mails and correspondence? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Which you reviewed? 19 A. Which -- 20 Q. Which you reviewed when you read this cable? 21 A. Which I reviewed, yes. 22 Q. Were you pleased with what was going on? 23 A. Yes. 24 but it's the Iranians recognizing that Merlin has something to 25 offer, and he was successfully raising his profile as And this is exactly what the defendant should be doing Exactly what the defendant and Merlin should both be And in this cable, are there actual verbatim copies of This was exactly what we wanted. It's not pay dirt, Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 140 of 254 PageID# 5138 Robert S. - Direct 421 1 Mr. Sterling and I had directed him. 2 Q. 3 excited to receive the responses? 4 A. 5 responses. 6 Q. 7 defendant? 8 A. Yes, about his profile. 9 Q. And in paragraph 6, what is reflected there? 10 A. Mr. Sterling and Merlin discussed the best form of 11 response that should be sent. 12 of the back-and-forth with the Iranians. 13 Q. 14 response? 15 A. Would you tell me where that is in all of this? 16 Q. Paragraph 6. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. Just as far as what's reported to you. 19 sentence. 20 A. 21 out as soon as possible considering the quick responses that 22 were sent to him. 23 Q. 24 advice, right? 25 A. And in paragraph 4, does the defendant report Merlin was Merlin was certainly excited to receive the above In paragraph 5, did Merlin also raise some concerns to the They were planning the tactics And what does Merlin say about the, the timing of such a Yeah. The second He's opined that it would be best to get a response And the defendant then in paragraph 7 asked for your Yes. He's saying considering this is the second time he's Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 141 of 254 PageID# 5139 Robert S. - Direct 422 1 had correspondence with a particular Iranian, we believe some 2 type of response should be sent as soon as possible. 3 Q. 4 you should push this along? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And he's asking for your advice in that regard? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Turn to Exhibit 19. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And dated what? 11 A. 16 February '99. 12 Q. And again, this is to Langley from New York? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And from the defendant to CPD, and you reviewed this, 15 correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Reflect results of a meeting on February 6? 18 A. It does. 19 Q. And what was discussed at that, that meeting? 20 A. The letter that Merlin should send, they discussed a draft 21 of it. 22 Q. And the draft is actually typed into the cable? 23 A. It's in the cable, yes. 24 Q. And in paragraph 4? 25 A. Mr. Sterling notes that Merlin has obviously put some So the defendant is agreeing with Merlin's assessment that Another cable? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 142 of 254 PageID# 5140 Robert S. - Direct 423 1 thought into the formulation of this letter and then he's 2 suggesting ways to make it better. 3 Q. 4 this letter better? 5 A. 6 job but, rather, a business opportunity. 7 Q. And did you agree with that? 8 A. Yes. 9 Mr. Sterling. What does Mr. Sterling, the defendant, suggest to make To make it, make it clear that he's not interested in a I thought that was a good suggestion by 10 Q. Now, later in that same paragraph, the defendant indicates 11 that considering the necessary process for continuing with the 12 project, I feel the longer the Iranians can be strung along, 13 the better. 14 A. To the approval process. 15 Q. -- the technical side to catch up? 16 A. The approval process to catch up. 17 Q. And you agree with that as well? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. In paragraph 6, does the defendant ask for your advice in 20 this regard? 21 A. 22 will cause Merlin to have some second thoughts about our 23 preparedness for this project. 24 somewhat excited about the prospect that the project is coming 25 to fruition and it will only behoove the project to be able to Yes. Is that referring to the -- He's saying that prolonged inactivity on our part Merlin does appear to be Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 143 of 254 PageID# 5141 Robert S. - Direct 424 1 build upon his enthusiasm. 2 thoughts/comments. 3 Look forward to headquarters' So Mr. Sterling is prodding me. 4 Q. And at least as far as you're being informed, Merlin is 5 pushing ahead, and the defendant wants to push ahead with -- 6 A. 7 at the right pace, not too fast and not too slow. 8 Q. And the next exhibit, Exhibit 20? 9 A. It is. 10 Q. Dated? 11 A. The 26th of February '99. 12 Q. And who's it to? 13 A. It is to Langley. 14 Q. Again, from? 15 A. From New York. 16 Q. Are you aware of any other case officer in New York who 17 worked on this Classified Program No. 1? 18 A. No. 19 Q. What action is required in this -- by this cable? 20 A. He's asking headquarters to review the letter and to reply 21 as soon as possible. 22 send to the Iranian who had contacted him. 23 Q. 24 defendant? 25 A. Yes, judiciously. The defendant is trying to keep Merlin Is that a cable? This is the draft letter for Merlin to And had the changes been made that were suggested by the Yes. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 144 of 254 PageID# 5142 Robert S. - Direct 425 1 Q. So that it reflects a business opportunity rather than a 2 job? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. What is reflected in paragraph 3? 5 A. This is Merlin trying to figure out the best way to send 6 this while still protecting himself. 7 Q. 8 where Merlin is with respect to Classified Program No. 1? 9 A. And in paragraph 5, is this the defendant's assessment of Yes. He's saying Merlin's concerns over the letter and 10 what should be included shows that he is indeed placing thought 11 into the project, even if he wants to be somewhat too 12 surreptitious. 13 Q. 14 unwillingness on the part of Merlin, but what? 15 A. 16 that the project is reaching a stage where he may actually have 17 to meet with the Iranians. 18 showing an unwillingness to continue the project. 19 letting his cautions be known. And he goes on to say that it doesn't reflect an Merlin's overly cautious tendencies may reflect his belief 20 This is not to say that Merlin is He is just Merlin continues to demonstrate his eagerness for the 21 project. The diligent work on 24 February on the letter 22 clearly demonstrated that to C/O. 23 Q. And he's asking you your input on sending out this letter? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Government Exhibit 21, is that another cable? And he's again prodding me. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 145 of 254 PageID# 5143 Robert S. - Direct 426 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Dated March 1? 3 A. March 1, '99. 4 Q. And that is to Langley from New York? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What is discussed in this? 7 A. Mr. Sterling is suggesting a salary increase for Merlin, 8 which Merlin had asked for. 9 ongoing efforts to reach out to the Iranians. It's also discussing Merlin's 10 Q. Is it the case officer's responsibility to handle these 11 type of discussions with the human asset? 12 A. 13 unilaterally raise a salary, but it is their responsibility if 14 they believe it to advocate for such an increase. 15 Q. 16 paragraph 8? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And what is the defendant's assessment and response with 19 respect to Merlin's request? 20 A. 21 he but also his managers, recommends a raise of at least USD 22 250 a month for Merlin. 23 with all of the minor administrative costs because you can just 24 give him a salary increase and tell him not to worry about 25 those, which is a good strategy. It is, and the case officer cannot himself or herself And Mr. Sterling's recommendation is reflected in He says that the New York office, that is to say, not just This will also make it easier to deal Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 146 of 254 PageID# 5144 Robert S. - Direct 427 1 Q. So the case officers know how much the human assets are 2 making? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And just so everyone is clear, CIA Office No. 2 is New 5 York, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. That's where the defendant is now on, on location, so to 8 speak? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. The next exhibit is Exhibit 22. 11 cable? 12 A. 22 March '99. 13 Q. And who sent this cable? 14 A. This came from CIA Office 2. 15 Q. New York? 16 A. New York. 17 Q. And again, the defendant, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Is this an informational cable? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And what information is it providing you back at 22 headquarters? 23 A. 24 Merlin on the 16th of March, that Merlin asked whether it was 25 okay to send the edited letter. What is the date of this It's a for your information only. That another meeting was held between Mr. Sterling and Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 147 of 254 PageID# 5145 Robert S. - Direct 428 1 Q. And in paragraph, in paragraph 4, again, the defendant 2 copies into the cable -- 3 A. A note that Merlin had received from the Iranians. 4 Q. At the end of paragraph 4, what does the defendant 5 indicate he instructed Merlin to do? 6 A. 7 he sends and receives. 8 Q. 9 Merlin? He instructed Merlin to bring copies of all correspondence And again, is that what you would expect him to instruct 10 A. Yes. That was a good instruction. I didn't have to tell 11 Mr. Sterling how to do his job. 12 Q. 13 again? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Which he recommended, correct? 16 A. Which he recommended, and I raised him and got my bosses 17 to agree to a larger salary increase because we were getting 18 close to when we were going to launch Merlin at the Iranians, 19 and we wanted to keep him happy. 20 Q. 21 defendant, as he requests here, to the extent that they were 22 going to be retained by the CIA, they would have to be secured 23 properly? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. The next exhibit is 23. He knew. And at the end of the cable is a discussion of his salary He's informing him of a salary increase. And again, once Merlin handed over documents to the Is that another cable? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 148 of 254 PageID# 5146 Robert S. - Direct 429 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Is that by the defendant to -- 3 A. From New York to Langley. 4 Q. Langley? 5 A. And dated the 12th of April, '99. 6 Q. Does this reflect another meeting that the defendant had 7 with Merlin? 8 A. Yes, on the 6th of April. 9 Q. And in paragraph 3, what is discussed there? 10 A. That Merlin told Mr. Sterling that he had received another 11 indication of interest from the Iranians. 12 Q. And again, in paragraph 4? 13 A. It shows the response that he sent out, which he sent 14 before checking with Mr. Sterling, which to some extent we 15 frown on, but on the other hand, we like initiative, so he did 16 it. 17 Q. 18 Merlin at least according to the defendant's cable expressing 19 some concerns about the Iranians as the project seems to be 20 coming closer to fruition? 21 A. 22 he's going to have to put himself into harm's way. 23 Q. 24 Merlin? 25 A. Now, in the -- in paragraph 4, on the second page, is Yes. He is getting appropriately focused on the fact that And in paragraph 6, does the defendant write what he told "C/O explained to Merlin that what will transpire is a Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 149 of 254 PageID# 5147 Robert S. - Direct 430 1 business deal from which the Iranians should be more interested 2 in what Merlin has to offer as opposed to personal 3 credentials." 4 In other words, we will make them focus on the 5 information you're offering rather than on you. 6 Q. 7 5, what is the defendant's assessment of the developments 8 expressed? 9 A. And right above that, I skipped over it, but in paragraph That it's a positive development of events for the project 10 that the Iranians had responded. 11 showed -- expressed extreme pleasure and excitement that the 12 Iranians are showing interest in the project as proceeding. 13 Q. 14 with Merlin? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And again, this -- 17 A. This is unfortunately a fairly standard Merlin thing, 18 where he thinks he hasn't been paid as much as he has and so 19 on. As I say, our record keeping was better than his. 20 Q. Would you turn to the next exhibit, No. 24? 21 He says that Merlin, in fact, Is part of this cable devoted to some financial issues Another cable? 22 A. Yes, from New York to Langley. 23 Q. And what is the date of this? 24 A. 13 May '99. 25 Q. By May of 1999, what's, what's the status of the project Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 150 of 254 PageID# 5148 Robert S. - Direct 431 1 with respect to the technical -- 2 A. 3 a couple of specific statements from the lab management about 4 export control and enabling technology, which are part of the 5 approval process, but the technical work has been successfully 6 completed. 7 Q. 8 response, he can't go forward? 9 A. We have to stall. 10 Q. What is -- was there another meeting in April that is 11 reflected in this cable? 12 A. Yes, on the 5th of April. 13 Q. And in paragraph 4, what does the defendant express -- or 14 what does he say he told Merlin? 15 A. 16 work and noted that the pace of the project was going at a 17 comfortable level. 18 inquiry about what the next step will be should he receive a 19 response from the Iranians. 20 the project has been considered and that the necessary steps 21 will be taken as warranted. 22 The technical work has been completed. We're waiting for And until that's completed, even if Merlin gets a positive He took the opportunity to congratulate Merlin on his fine This was mainly in response to Merlin's C/O explained that every aspect of He was in a difficult position because Merlin was 23 anxious to know what was happening and to move ahead, and 24 Mr. Sterling knew that we were still working on the approvals, 25 so he had to keep Merlin interested while at the same time Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 151 of 254 PageID# 5149 Robert S. - Direct 432 1 slowing him down. 2 Q. 3 you what? 4 A. 5 the project, and his interest is certainly piqued at what the 6 next steps will entail. 7 him in the process of keeping Merlin motivated but also paced. 8 Q. 9 correct? And in paragraph 5, the defendant is communicating back to He says that Merlin continues to show an eagerness towards Then he asks me to come up and help And in paragraph 6, the money matters are discussed again, 10 A. Right. 11 Q. And again, it was a discrepancy between Merlin's 12 accounting and your accounting? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. The CIA's accounting? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And that was resolved? 17 A. It was. 18 Q. Now, in that paragraph, does Merlin -- does the defendant 19 tell Merlin he has to sign his, his contract, his agreement 20 with the agency? 21 A. 22 meeting, and Merlin requested that the language of the 23 agreement be changed to note that he does computer consulting 24 work for the USG. 25 Q. Well, he says it will be ready for signing during the next And what does -- does Merlin express some concern that Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 152 of 254 PageID# 5150 Robert S. - Direct 433 1 that may become public or, or surface at some point? 2 A. 3 should happen if his agreement is ever discovered by someone 4 and what should happen, how he would be able to explain his 5 work for the USG. 6 Q. 7 according -- 8 A. 9 ever surfacing outside of CIA. He does. He says Merlin expressed concern about what And what was the defendant's response to Merlin, at least C/O said that Merlin should not worry about his contract 10 Q. And that's, in fact, what should happen, correct? 11 A. That is what should happen. 12 human assets, that we will protect their relationship with us 13 from any disclosure. 14 Q. 15 this cable? 16 A. The date is the 28th of May '99. 17 Q. And was there another meeting? 18 A. Yes. 19 periodically, and met with Merlin and Mr. Sterling. 20 Q. And why, why did you go to New York? 21 A. I did this periodically both to keep Merlin inspired and 22 in this case and in many cases, to tell him about the next 23 step, to introduce where we were going. 24 Q. 25 defendant write this cable? That is our pledge to all The next exhibit, 26 -- excuse me, 25? What's the date of On the 25th, I went to New York, as I did And in paragraph 2, what does the defendant -- did the Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 153 of 254 PageID# 5151 Robert S. - Direct 434 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And were you with him when you wrote it -- when he wrote 3 it? 4 A. 5 reviewed it and I received it. 6 Q. And again, is Merlin eager to proceed? 7 A. He is. 8 Q. Paragraph 3, what does that paragraph express? 9 A. It's Merlin saying he had no more response from the I don't know if I was with him, but, you know, certainly I 10 Iranians and then my telling him the big news, that we would 11 want him to make his approach to them in Vienna. 12 Q. And you're directing him to do what? 13 A. To continue his Internet work and to look for any 14 information he could find on the open Internet about Iranian 15 Subject 1, whom we had determined would be the best person to 16 approach. 17 launching him. 18 Q. 19 Merlin now informed that he would be traveling to Vienna at 20 some point? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. But by no means Iran? 23 A. Exactly. 24 Q. In your meeting with, with Merlin, did he express any 25 concerns at all with respect to proceeding with the project as We wanted him to find it rather than our just At the end of that paragraph 3, the bottom of the page, is Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 154 of 254 PageID# 5152 Robert S. - Direct 435 1 planned? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Had anything changed at this time with respect to the 4 overall design of the operation in terms of the schematics and 5 the plans and Merlin's approach? 6 A. No. 7 Q. It was still consistent with what was discussed way back 8 in San Francisco meetings? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And Merlin never expressed any concerns about that plan? 11 A. He did not. 12 Q. Next exhibit, 27? 13 A. 26 we're not talking about? 14 Q. I did skip over -- 27 is the next cable. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. I'm skipping over 26. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. Exhibit 27, is that a cable? 19 A. Yes, it is. 20 Q. What's the date of that cable? 21 A. 29 June '99. 22 Q. Again, from New York to Langley? 23 A. New York to Langley. 24 Q. What does this cable discuss? 25 A. It discusses the events in the meeting of 17 June between That's another exhibit. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 155 of 254 PageID# 5153 Robert S. - Direct 436 1 Mr. Sterling and Merlin. They're discussing -- 2 Q. 3 the Iranian Subject No. 1? 4 A. Yes, they are. 5 Q. But Merlin was unable to find any information on that 6 subject? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. Paragraph 4 discusses the travel to Vienna; is that right? 9 A. Yes. Are they at a point where they're trying to reach out to And Merlin's rather exotic idea that he would make a 10 PowerPoint presentation of this fire set to the Iranians. 11 Q. The defendant advised what with respect to that idea? 12 A. That this would appear too slick and professional and that 13 Merlin should be thinking more furtively as someone who's 14 afraid to be offering it up and wants to offer it and wants to 15 get out of there, rather than a slick commercial professional, 16 who would have a PowerPoint presentation. 17 Q. And you concurred in that advice, correct? 18 A. Yes, particularly considering PowerPoint in 1999. 19 Q. Do you have Exhibit 29 in front of you? 20 THE COURT: You're skipping 28? 21 MR. TRUMP: I believe 28 is a letter from the lab. 22 THE COURT: Right. 23 THE WITNESS: 24 BY MR. TRUMP: 25 Q. Yes, I have 29. And that is another cable from New York to Langley? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 156 of 254 PageID# 5154 Robert S. - Direct 437 1 A. It is. 2 Q. And what is -- does that discuss another meeting in June 3 of 1999? 4 A. 5 Merlin is, and it's asking for an extension of the agreement 6 and approval under which we worked with him. 7 Q. No. I apologize, I was one cable behind you. 8 9 It's, it's the assessment of Mr. Sterling of where In paragraph 5, what is the defendant's recommendation with respect to -- 10 A. That we continue to work with him. 11 Q. And would you read what he says in paragraph 5 about 12 Merlin? 13 A. 14 highly specialized area of expertise, and enthusiastic in his 15 support for and work with CIA. 16 financial remuneration he receives. 17 he does on CIA's behalf and is continually thinking of other 18 methods that can be used for CIA's purposes. 19 to tasking and brings the key elements of his own experiences 20 and knowledge to his work for CIA." 21 Q. And did you concur in that assessment? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. In paragraph 6, what is the defendant telling you? 24 A. It says that Merlin is sensitized to security issues and 25 always errs on the side of caution. "Merlin is an intelligent individual, knowledgeable in a Merlin is also motivated by the M is diligent in the work M is responsive At times, Merlin will on Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 157 of 254 PageID# 5155 Robert S. - Direct 438 1 his own initiative implement security measures consistent with 2 the overall objections of CIA. 3 Q. Was that also your personal assessment of Merlin? 4 A. Yes. 5 this work. 6 Q. Government Exhibit 30. 7 A. 5 November '99. 8 Q. What, what has happened between July and November at this 9 point? Objectives, not objections. He was definitely on our side and was trying to make What's the date of that cable? 10 A. We had received approval to proceed, and we were 11 sharpening our operational approach plans. 12 Q. 13 and Mr. Sterling? 14 A. Yes, on the 4th of November. 15 Q. And at that meeting, was there a discussion of a letter? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What is the -- had you discussed the use of a letter with, 18 with the defendant? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What was the point of using a letter? 21 A. The letter would be Merlin's introduction to the Iranians. 22 Rather than having him sit there in the Iranian mission and 23 debate with them or try to get his words out, he would put 24 everything that we needed to say in with the documents so that 25 if need be, he could just leave it and it would be And does the cable reflect a brief meeting between Merlin Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 158 of 254 PageID# 5156 Robert S. - Direct 439 1 self-explanatory. 2 Q. And this letter -- was Merlin asked to draft the letter? 3 A. Yes. 4 Mr. Sterling's or mine. 5 Q. And then after drafting it, what was he directed to do? 6 A. He would bring his latest draft to the meeting, and 7 Mr. Sterling and I, if I were there, would review it. 8 Otherwise, Mr. Sterling would include it in a cable and send it 9 to me for review in Washington. We wanted it to be in his voice rather than in 10 Q. And then you would discuss it with, with the defendant? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And is this one version of the letter in this cable? 13 A. It is one version. 14 Q. Was this a relatively early version? 15 A. I think there were four or five more before we were 16 completely satisfied with it. 17 Q. 18 plan that you've already discussed and outlined for the jury? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And in this letter, oh, about two-thirds of the way down 21 in paragraph 5, "If your government will be interested to get 22 complete information or get answer on any technical questions, 23 let me know please." 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. The plans, the schematics, are going to be what? Now, in this letter -- is this letter consistent with the Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 159 of 254 PageID# 5157 Robert S. - Direct 440 1 A. Incomplete. 2 Q. And is this consistent then with the letter? 3 A. Yes, it is. 4 out, that the plans are incomplete and if the Iranians want the 5 rest of them, they will have to pay. 6 Q. 7 version letter, is it? 8 A. Not in this one. 9 Q. Did you and the defendant then discuss ways to improve It's a reference to the legend that we'd laid Now, the pay part is not directly addressed in this 10 upon the letter? 11 A. 12 different versions so that the most appropriate version can be 13 determined at the next meeting. 14 Q. 15 a cable dated November 24, 1999? 16 A. Yes, it is. 17 Q. And again, who's it to? 18 A. It is to two CIA field offices. 19 Q. And it's from? 20 A. From Langley. 21 Q. And who drafted this cable? 22 A. I did, I think. 23 Yes. And the defendant instructed Merlin to work on And moving on to that, let's look at Exhibit 31. Is that Let me check. Yes. 24 Q. And what does this cable discuss? 25 A. It discussed that Merlin had received his travel documents Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 160 of 254 PageID# 5158 Robert S. - Direct 441 1 that would enable him to go to Vienna, and more important, he'd 2 received a response showing interest from an Iranian who was in 3 our view a potential conduit into the nuclear weapons program. 4 Q. Now, this was discussed with Merlin at a meeting? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Where? 7 A. In New York. 8 Q. And were you present? 9 A. I was. 10 Q. And was the defendant present? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. In paragraph 4, is the, the legend and the story for the 13 Vienna trip discussed? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Is it planned that Mrs. Merlin would accompany him? 16 A. Yes. 17 maintain a tourist legend, and she is a calming influence. 18 Q. 19 to how this scenario would play out? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. How you hoped it would play out? 22 A. We're getting down to real specifics at this stage. 23 Q. And paragraph 5? 24 A. We're talking about the timing of when he will go and then 25 the discussion of whether we will send Merlin by himself or one We thought that would make it much easier for him to And in -- is there a further discussion in paragraph 4 as Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 161 of 254 PageID# 5159 Robert S. - Direct 442 1 or both of us will go with him to provide him better guidance. 2 Q. And was it decided that she should accompany him? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Now, the, the two subjects that are discussed in this 5 e-mail, Iranian Subject 1 and the Iranian Institution 1 -- 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. -- how was -- how were you hoping that this would play 8 out? 9 A. If I might comment, she is much more street smart. We were hoping that the letter that Merlin wrote, which 10 would be addressed to the Iranian Subject 2, who had just 11 contacted him, and then handed to Iranian Subject 1 or his 12 staff, that it would explain who Merlin was and the efforts 13 he'd made to contact and show to Iranian Subject 1 in Vienna 14 that another Iranian who he certainly knew had expressed 15 interest in Merlin and his offer. 16 So it was a very good entrée to the Iranians. 17 Q. And is this the first time you discussed the delivery at 18 the Iranian mission at the IAEA? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Why there? 21 A. That was the most physical presence of the Iranians, 22 particularly Iranians associated with nuclear matters, anywhere 23 in the world. 24 Q. 25 Iranian Subject 1, that had not happened yet? And at this point, despite Merlin's attempt to contact Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 162 of 254 PageID# 5160 Robert S. - Direct 443 1 A. Correct, but he had received contact from Iranian Subject 2 2, which was just as good. 3 off. 4 Q. 5 cable? 6 A. We're skipping 32? 7 Q. I apologize. 8 A. Well, I've got them all in front of me. 9 Q. 32, what's the date of this cable? 10 A. The date is the 1st of December. 11 Q. And it was to headquarters from New York? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And reflects another meeting on November 18, 1999? 14 A. Oh, it's the same meeting, but this time, he's -- 15 Mr. Sterling is including the text of the e-mail exchange with 16 the Iranian. 17 Q. And that's in paragraph 4? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And what does Mr. Sterling represent in terms of this 20 e-mail exchange in paragraph -- 21 A. 22 the operation. 23 Iranian Subject 2 can be exploited to either provide another 24 person to present the material to, or somehow utilize this 25 contract to provide a more definite entree to Iranian Subject 1 So his two years of effort had paid Turn to Government Exhibit 33. What's the date of this It's a cable. Thank you for keeping me on my toes. He says, ". . . this is a fortuitous turn of events for As a preliminary thought, the contact from Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 163 of 254 PageID# 5161 Robert S. - Direct 444 1 for Merlin." 2 Q. Now, Exhibit 33. 3 A. 16 December '99. 4 Q. And that's to headquarters from New York? 5 A. To headquarters from New York. 6 Q. What does this reflect? 7 A. A meeting on the 14th of December between Mr. Sterling and 8 myself and Merlin in New York. 9 Q. And what's the subject of that meeting? 10 A. We are tightening down the specific plans of his approach 11 to the Iranians in Vienna, which would occur within a month or 12 two. 13 Q. 14 again? 15 A. 16 whole package to Vienna. 17 Q. 18 not? 19 A. Yes, I probably did. 20 Q. What was -- how was, how was the letter described in 21 paragraph 3, the second sentence of paragraph 3? 22 A. 23 enough to absolutely catch Iranian Subject 1's and the 24 Iranians' attention, yet not too much so as to garner 25 suspicion." What's the date of that cable? And did you discuss this, the letter of introduction We did, and we discussed how Merlin would get it, get the And do you recall whether you helped draft this cable or "It was discussed that the language should be specific Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 164 of 254 PageID# 5162 Robert S. - Direct 445 1 Q. 2 suggestions on how to do that? 3 A. Yes, we did. 4 Q. What else was he provided with at that meeting? 5 A. Where are we? 6 Q. In paragraph 3. 7 A. Paragraph 3. 8 concerns he will have about finding the building should be 9 alleviated." 10 And did you provide Merlin at that meeting with some Oh, ". . . enough information so that any Yes, we started to give him his specific directions 11 as to finding the Iranian mission to the IAEA. 12 Q. 13 location of that office a public fact? 14 A. Yes, although it's hard to dig out, but it is public fact. 15 Q. In paragraph 4, what, what is discussed there? 16 A. How to get the documents to Vienna. 17 wife to know exactly what he was doing. 18 Q. 19 defendant, and Merlin considered? 20 A. 21 with a suitable cover legend, or one or both of us could meet 22 him in Vienna and hand him the documents. 23 Q. 24 that someone meet him there? 25 A. And it says you gave him maps and directions. Is the He didn't want his And what were the different scenarios that you, the Well, we could send Merlin with the documents himself, And at first, is that the preferred choice for Merlin, That was our conclusion, and I was the one chosen because Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 165 of 254 PageID# 5163 Robert S. - Direct 446 1 I had made many a trip to Vienna and knew it well. 2 Q. 3 this, this is an assessment by you and the defendant that -- 4 A. 5 mid-January. 6 are more related to logistical realities, none are show- 7 shoppers. 8 undertake the operation." 9 Q. And in paragraph 5, again, this is expression by -- or ". . . making good progress on the eventual launch in Merlin is expressing his concerns, but as they Merlin continues to express his willingness to And when you met with Merlin, any concern about the, the 10 schematics, the -- 11 A. No. 12 Q. -- documents, anything dealing with the technical side of 13 the operation? 14 A. No. 15 Q. At this point, do you have all the technical approvals 16 necessary to move forward? 17 A. 18 to go. 19 Q. We have the technical legal policy approvals. We are good Exhibit 35? 20 Before I discuss that, you've had now a couple of 21 face-to-face meetings with Merlin and the defendant in New 22 York, right, in December? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did the defendant ever voice any concerns to you about 25 moving ahead with the operation? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 166 of 254 PageID# 5164 Robert S. - Direct 447 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did he have plenty of opportunity to do so with you? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Did he ever express any concerns that Merlin had expressed 5 concerns to him? 6 A. No. 7 8 We had -- THE COURT: All right, you're on Exhibit 35, MR. TRUMP: Yes. Mr. Trump. 9 10 Q. Exhibit 35, is that another cable? 11 A. It is. 12 Q. What's the date of that cable? 13 A. 12 January 2000. 14 Q. And that was from CIA Office No. 2 to Langley? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Was there another meeting in January between Merlin and 17 the defendant? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And what was the general discussion at that meeting? 20 A. Well, the general discussion was the upcoming trip to 21 Vienna, and there's another version of the letter that they had 22 worked through. 23 Q. 24 will probably be in Vienna? 25 A. And in paragraph 3, is there a discussion of how long he Yes. Mr. Sterling is outlining our plans for him to spend Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 167 of 254 PageID# 5165 Robert S. - Direct 448 1 two-three days and then get out of town. 2 Q. 3 package? 4 A. 5 engaging in debate with anyone at the Iranian mission, say he 6 had a, he had a package for Iranian Subject 2, would they 7 please make sure he'd get it, and then leave. 8 letter was to be self-explanatory so Merlin didn't have to 9 answer a lot of questions. And what is Merlin told about the best way to deliver the That we basically want him just to drop it off rather than Because the 10 Q. And in paragraph 4, do you renew -- did the defendant and 11 Merlin discuss the concern about where he would take possession 12 of the package containing the schematics? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And what does Merlin say? 15 A. He says the situation is changed and he can now take the 16 package. 17 materials while they were in Vienna and didn't tell her 18 anything else. 19 himself. 20 Q. And is that something that you concurred with? 21 A. Yes. 22 intelligence operative, and while Mr. Sterling and I are and we 23 could securely meet him, we would not be sure that he hadn't 24 attracted hostile attention and brought them to a meeting with 25 us, which would not be good at all. He explained to his wife that he had to deliver some So he was now prepared to take the package We preferred that because Merlin is not a trained Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 168 of 254 PageID# 5166 Robert S. - Direct 449 1 Q. Now, in paragraph 5, what is reflected there? 2 A. Another draft of the letter to be included in the package 3 of disinformation materials. 4 Q. 5 discussed with the defendant? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Specifically, what is said now about the, the 8 incompleteness of the -- 9 A. Does this letter have some of the changes that you He's saying, "If you try to create a similar device, you 10 will need to ask some practical questions. No problem. 11 will get answers, but I expect to be paid for that." You 12 So in his non-native English, he's laying out that 13 this is the demo version of the software, and when they want 14 the license, they have to pay. 15 Q. 16 suggestions on what could be done to improve this letter? 17 A. 18 want it to be authentically Merlin speaking, but we also want 19 it to say what we want it to say. 20 Merlin, we have to deal with his non-native English and try to 21 work it through. 22 Q. 23 alternative? 24 A. 25 introduction to Iranian Subject 1, so that the external package Now, in paragraph 6, does the defendant relay to you his Yes, he does, and this is an ongoing challenge because we So short of dictating it to And what does the defendant suggest as perhaps another He suggests that a second letter could serve as an Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 169 of 254 PageID# 5167 Robert S. - Direct 450 1 would be addressed to Iranian Subject 1 and the internal 2 package would be addressed to Iranian Subject 2 and would 3 include the more detailed explanatory letter. 4 I thought it was a good idea. 5 Q. The rest of the cable or a good bulk of the cable then is 6 discussing some financial matters again? 7 A. 8 walking out, as usual claiming that he hadn't been paid as much 9 as we said he had. Yes. Merlin basically acting out, getting huffy and 10 Q. Was this something that came up almost every 11 January-February? 12 A. Yes, sadly. 13 Q. And again, it was his accounting versus agency accounting? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Would you go to Exhibit 36? 16 Do you have that in front of you? 17 A. I do. 18 Q. Is that a cable dated January 14? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Was this a cable to New York? 21 A. To New York from Langley. 22 Q. And did you draft this cable? 23 A. I did. 24 Q. So this went to the defendant in New York? 25 A. Yes. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 170 of 254 PageID# 5168 Robert S. - Direct 451 1 Q. The first paragraph discusses the -- 2 A. I'm apologizing to Mr. Sterling for Merlin's bad behavior. 3 It wasn't my bad behavior, but I was still sorry that he caught 4 the brunt of it. 5 beyond Mr. Sterling's control. 6 Q. And paragraph 3 -- 7 A. Yep. 8 Q. -- does that get back to the letter? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you agreed with the defendant's comments about some of 11 the verbiage? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So do you make some suggestions? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And what were your suggestions, as reflected in -- 16 A. Again, ". . . acknowledge that what he is providing 17 initially is incomplete. 18 that he expects to be paid for the rest of the details they 19 will need if they want to build the device." 20 And this is all talking about stuff that was There should be a very clear message In other words, to sharpen the message of this is 21 incomplete. When you want the rest, pay me. 22 Q. 23 other logistics in terms of the -- 24 A. 25 Mr. Sterling had suggested, and the package, the inner package And further on the next page, you discuss some of the Yes, how the -- there would be two letters, as Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 171 of 254 PageID# 5169 Robert S. - Direct 452 1 would be addressed to the Iranian who had contacted him, and 2 the outer package would have the letter to the person, Iranian 3 Subject 1, who was in Vienna. 4 Q. And what is discussed in paragraph 4? 5 A. The trade-off between going and meeting Merlin and sending 6 him with the information by himself, the trade-off being that 7 if we were there, we could guide him much more specifically 8 into his target, but if we were there, he could also mistakenly 9 bring hostile attention to us and therefore expose himself. So 10 it's a trade-off, and we went with sending him with it by 11 himself. 12 Q. And Government 37? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And what was the date of this cable? 15 A. The 17th of February. 16 Q. And what is discussed in this particular cable? 17 A. A meeting that Mr. Sterling and I had with Merlin on the 18 evening of the 14th where despite my efforts to calm him down, 19 Merlin had marched out and then called me at my hotel the next 20 morning and apologized. 21 we're going to get Merlin back in the box and how we're going 22 to assess whether he's ready to do this operation. 23 Q. 24 money again? 25 A. What is that, another cable? And I'm laying out the plans for how And the argument that you were having with Merlin was over Well, it wasn't an argument. Merlin made his comments and Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 172 of 254 PageID# 5170 Robert S. - Direct 453 1 walked out. 2 Q. 3 details in place as of February 17? 4 A. 5 cold feet before he actually had to go and walk into an Iranian 6 institution with stolen Russian nuclear weapons plans, and how 7 we were going to give him the few thousand dollars that he was 8 contending about just to placate him and keep him focused, and 9 that we would send him out there with the fire set plans if I And what is, what is discussed then about the operational Well, our assessment first of all that he was just getting 10 assessed at one more meeting that he was ready and he was going 11 to do as we asked. 12 Q. 13 ago, that he will have a letter? 14 A. 15 print out in Vienna, and then he would handwrite the letter No. 16 2 that goes on the outside. 17 Q. 18 leaving to -- 19 A. 20 Vienna. 21 mission." 22 Q. 23 17? 24 A. 25 decide whether he was going to go and do this mission or not. And the plan is pretty much as you discussed a few minutes Yes. He'll have a letter on his computer that he would And he was also supposed to send an e-mail prior to To Iranian Subject 2 saying, "Look, I'm going to be in I will drop off this important package at your IAEA Now, what was -- how was it left with Merlin on February That we would have one more meeting and then I would Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 173 of 254 PageID# 5171 Robert S. - Direct 454 1 I didn't see him that next morning. He called me, and then I 2 set up another meeting, and this is describing what happened 3 and what plans we had, and the thought occurred to me that 4 being a case officer is not all that different from being a 5 parent on some occasions. 6 Q. So did you have a final meeting? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And will you go to Exhibit 38? 9 A. Um-hum. 10 Q. Is that a cable dated February 22? 11 A. Yes, from New York to Langley. 12 Q. And what does -- what's the discussion in this cable? 13 A. This is I went into the New York office after the meeting 14 with Merlin and -- on the evening of the 21st, and he and I had 15 a serious discussion, and I concluded that he was ready to do 16 this, so I gave him the packet of misinformation and his travel 17 advance and paid him his salary for the last year, I believe. 18 Q. 19 him -- 20 A. 21 between the defendant and Merlin because the defendant had been 22 facing this, this immature behavior all along, so -- and I was 23 the senior officer, so we figured it would be better if I, if I 24 did this and made the call. 25 Q. Now, was the defendant with you when you went and gave No. We decided at that point that there was some friction So you met him at a hotel? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 174 of 254 PageID# 5172 Robert S. - Direct 455 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And did you make an assessment as to whether he was ready? 3 A. I did. 4 Q. And what was that? 5 A. That he was ready. 6 could speculate that he had had a conversation with 7 Mrs. Merlin, who straightened him out, although I don't know 8 that, and he seemed focused and calm and able to do this. 9 Q. He had calmed down substantially. I And to resolve the financial issues that were raised, 10 what, what did you do? 11 A. 12 paid and, indeed, paid him the salary that he had not yet 13 received. 14 Q. 15 what did you discuss with Merlin? 16 A. 17 staying out of trouble, meaning staying away from other 18 Russians, gave him a cover story, a legend for the plans that 19 he was carrying, that is to say, that the schematics were for a 20 data storage device, which nobody but an electrical engineer 21 would know better. 22 Q. And the schematics were contained in what? 23 A. The schematics and the CAD/CAM drawing and so on were in 24 an envelope. 25 Q. Told him I would meet him halfway on when and how he was After you got the financial details out of the way, what, Well, we went over how he's going to behave in Vienna, Was it a sealed envelope? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 175 of 254 PageID# 5173 Robert S. - Direct 456 1 A. No, it was not. 2 Q. Why wasn't it sealed? 3 A. First, there was no reason to seal it. 4 shown it to Merlin many times; second, we wanted him to print 5 off the letter in Vienna and insert it in the envelope there; 6 and third, if he were challenged by some customs official 7 during his trip, he could just pull out the innocent envelope 8 of plans for a data storage device, and no one would further 9 trouble him. We had already 10 Q. And did you go over the plans for the drop-off again with 11 him? 12 A. Yes, including finding the place. 13 Q. And in paragraph 4, that's what is discussed, your final 14 instructions to him? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And in paragraph 5, what did you tell him to do once he 17 got to Vienna? 18 A. 19 mission. 20 was true in a certain sense, but not as close as he thought we 21 might be watching him. 22 have had people watching him, but then somebody might have seen 23 them, but we wanted to give him the idea both that we were 24 looking out for him, and we certainly alerted the U.S. 25 consulate and other overt authorities in Vienna that if Familiarize himself with the city and the area around the I told him we would be keeping an eye on him, which Again, it's the trade-off. We could Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 176 of 254 PageID# 5174 Robert S. - Direct 457 1 somebody showed up, that they would protect them, and we wanted 2 to give him the idea that we were keeping an eye on him. 3 Q. 4 that -- 5 A. No. 6 Q. -- that went with him? 7 A. No. 8 Q. And he was pleased that someone was going to keep an eye 9 on him? But there was no surveillance team or anything like 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did he ask you for an emergency phone number? 12 A. He did. 13 Q. And what did you give him? 14 A. Well, I had no other choice than to give him my cell phone 15 because we were sending him, a U.S. legal permanent resident, 16 into a friendly country, and he had zero capabilities as a 17 clandestine agent, as he was about to prove, so any of the 18 normal kind of thing that you would give to a trained and 19 skilled clandestine agent were out of the question. 20 Q. 21 schematics? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you set up a plan to meet with him when he got back? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, this cable was sent by you, and it was sent to the So at the end of the meeting, did you give him the, the Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 177 of 254 PageID# 5175 Robert S. - Direct 458 1 New York office? 2 A. 3 perhaps I -- yes, it's to Langley. 4 office and discussed it -- discussed what had happened with 5 Mr. Sterling, and then I sat down and drafted this cable. 6 Q. So he was at the office when you wrote this cable? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And you discussed with him all the details that went into 9 the cable? No. I wrote it from the New York office, I think, or So I went into the New York 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. So he was fully aware of this final meeting with Merlin? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did he express any concerns or reservations as to your 14 decision to, to send Merlin? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did he support your decision? 17 A. Seemed to. 18 stage of going ahead. 19 Q. I have to ask you to turn to the other exhibit binder. 20 A. I only have one. 21 22 Seemed pleased that we'd finally reached the THE COURT: Mr. Wood should have a second one there, a second binder. 23 MR. TRUMP: 24 Your Honor. 25 Q. I seem to have misplaced my exhibit list, Would you look at Exhibit 39? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 178 of 254 PageID# 5176 Robert S. - Direct 1 A. That's in the other book. 2 3 459 THE COURT: That's in the first book. The first book runs through 75. 4 MR. TRUMP: 5 THE WITNESS: He just doesn't have it yet, Your Honor. I think I have 39. 6 BY MR. TRUMP: 7 Q. Do you have Exhibit 39 in front of you? 8 A. I do. 9 Q. What is that? 10 A. It's a photograph of the exterior of the building in which 11 the Iranian mission to the IAEA is located in Vienna. 12 Q. Have you been to that location? 13 A. Well, I've certainly been outside it. 14 Q. And does it accurately reflect the mission back in 2000? 15 A. Yes, it does. 16 Q. And Exhibit 40? 17 THE COURT: Are you going to publish that to the 19 MR. TRUMP: Not yet, Your Honor. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 All right, now, 39 you did not formally move in. 18 22 jury? Are you moving that in? 23 MR. TRUMP: I will in a minute, Your Honor. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 MR. TRUMP: I have a feeling there'll be an Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 179 of 254 PageID# 5177 Robert S. - Direct 1 460 objection. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. TRUMP: I'm just going to get through the four, 4 and then we can get -- 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 BY MR. TRUMP: 7 Q. Exhibit 40? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What is that? 10 A. That is a picture of the, the house number, 19 11 Heinestrasse, in front of the Iranian mission. 12 Q. Is that the address you gave Merlin? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Have you been to this location? 15 A. I've been outside it. 16 Q. And was this how this appeared in 2000? 17 A. It was. 18 Q. And 41? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you recognize that? 21 A. Yes. 22 building. 23 Q. And have you seen that? 24 A. I have seen it. 25 Q. And is this how it appeared in 2000? I wasn't going to go in. That's a very typical Vienna house number. It's the list of doorbells and occupants of this Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 180 of 254 PageID# 5178 Robert S. - Direct 461 1 A. It is. 2 Q. And 42 is a close-up of the same? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And which, which label is associated with -- 5 A. The one in the lower left-hand corner, which says "1/1," 6 meaning Apartment 1 on the first floor, "P.M. Iran," Permanent 7 Mission of Iran. 8 Q. And 43? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What is that? 11 A. That's the Hotel Intercontinental in Vienna. 12 Q. Have you been there? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And is that an accurate depiction of the Hotel 15 Intercontinental in 2000? 16 A. There I have gone inside. Yes, it is. 17 MR. TRUMP: We would move these into evidence, Your 19 THE COURT: Any objection? 20 MR. POLLACK: 18 Honor. Yes, Your Honor. I'd like an 21 additional foundation laid in terms of when these photos were 22 taken and by whom. 23 THE COURT: That's not relevant if the witness on the 24 stand was at the scene and says that the photograph is a true 25 and accurate representation of what he saw back in 1990. You Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 181 of 254 PageID# 5179 Robert S. - Direct 1 462 can cross him on it. 2 MR. POLLACK: Okay. I may have missed it, but I 3 don't believe he's testified when he saw these -- the things 4 depicted in this building -- in these photos. 5 THE COURT: 6 THE WITNESS: 7 THE COURT: 8 Were you in Vienna in 1990? I was there in 1999. I'm sorry, in 1999. Merlin went there? 9 THE WITNESS: THE COURT: 11 THE WITNESS: No. 10 12 How close afterwards were you there? I was there beforehand several times to gather the information I would need to prepare Merlin. 13 14 THE COURT: So how far in advance of his being in Vienna were you in Vienna? 15 THE WITNESS: 16 within two or three, four months. 17 18 THE COURT: I don't recall the exact date, but it's That's close enough. MR. POLLACK: 20 THE COURT: 21 including 43 are into evidence. 23 I'm overruling the objection. 19 22 You were there when Thank you, Your Honor. All right, Exhibits 39 through and (Government's Exhibit Nos. 39 through 43 were received in evidence.) 24 THE COURT: Do you want to publish those? 25 MR. TRUMP: Yes. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 182 of 254 PageID# 5180 Robert S. - Direct 1 THE COURT: 463 All right. 2 BY MR. TRUMP: 3 Q. And this is the what? 4 A. This is the building in which the Iranian mission is 5 located. 6 the street that the first floor was painted a pale green. 7 Q. And the next one, 40? 8 A. That is the house number of the building, Heinestrasse 19, 9 19 Heinestrasse. I remember telling Merlin that it was the only one on You described this as what? 10 Q. And the next exhibit, 41? 11 A. That shows the doorbells to the various apartments within 12 this building, or offices. 13 Q. And the next one? 14 A. That shows the specific, if you look at the lower left 15 corner, "P.M. Iran," Permanent Mission of Iran. 16 doorbell to alert them that you want to come in. 17 Q. That's the Thank you. 18 What were the approximate dates of Merlin's travel to 19 Vienna? 20 A. Late February-early March 2000. 21 Q. And at some point, were you informed that he had returned? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. While he was there, did you receive any communication from 24 him? 25 A. Yes. He called me on the emergency cell phone number. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 183 of 254 PageID# 5181 Robert S. - Direct 464 1 Q. And what was that call all about? 2 A. He couldn't find the building. 3 Q. Which building? 4 A. The building in which the Iranian Permanent Mission was 5 located. 6 Q. The one that we just -- 7 A. The one we just looked at. 8 Q. And what did you tell him? 9 A. I told him to look one more time at the very specific 10 instructions and map guidance I had given him and that if he 11 did that and followed it to the letter, he would find it. 12 Q. Is that the substance of the call? 13 A. It was. 14 sales call, if you follow the instructions. 15 the building or the Iranians or certainly not the materials 16 that we were delivering, but I told him basically to listen to 17 his instructions. 18 Q. Did you receive word that he had returned? 19 A. Yes, I did. 20 Q. Who, who told you he had returned? 21 A. Mr. Sterling. 22 Q. What did you do in response? 23 A. I went to New York to meet him, as we had planned on the 24 9th of March. 25 Q. I tried to, you know, say, well, to make your I didn't mention And according to Mr. Sterling, had he spoken with Merlin Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 184 of 254 PageID# 5182 Robert S. - Direct 465 1 upon his return? 2 A. Yes, I believe so informally. 3 Q. Would you look at Government Exhibit 44? 4 THE COURT: 5 MR. POLLACK: 6 THE COURT: 7 jurors' book, correct? Is there any objection to 44? No objection to 44, Your Honor. All right, it's in. And it's in the 44 is in the jurors' book? 8 MR. TRUMP: Yes. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. TRUMP: It's already -- it was in the group that 11 was moved in. 12 THE COURT: All right, I'm sorry. 13 BY MR. TRUMP: 14 Q. Another cable, Mr. S.? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What is the date of this cable? 17 A. 10th of March, 2000. 18 Q. It's a cable from New York and directed to headquarters? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And it reflects your meeting with Merlin and the defendant 21 upon his return? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Would you describe just generally what, what happened at 24 that meeting? 25 A. Merlin described what he had accomplished in Vienna, which Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 185 of 254 PageID# 5183 Robert S. - Direct 466 1 is to say after he had bumbled around and couldn't find it and 2 called me and I told him to remember what I told him, he did 3 find it. 4 He took pleasure in telling us that there were seven steps 5 inside the building instead of the four that we had told him 6 about, but he definitely had gotten to the right place. He took pleasure -- I mentioned the engineer aspect. 7 He said that he tried several times, couldn't get in, 8 came back, and the postman had opened the door, so he used that 9 as his opportunity to go in and put the packet of information 10 and the two letters in the mailbox that was labeled for the 11 Iranian Permanent Mission right to the -- right beside the door 12 that said "Iranian Permanent Mission." 13 Q. 14 that package? 15 A. Yes, as I just described. 16 Q. Was anyone there? 17 A. Well, a mailman helped him get in, but there was no one -- 18 no Iranian was there, which was fine. 19 Q. 20 cable? 21 A. I believe Mr. Sterling and I drafted it together. 22 Q. And in paragraph 3, it reflects what you just said about 23 his phone call to you? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And the fact that he went inside the building? Now, did he describe in any detail how he delivered those, And in paragraph 3 of this cable -- did you draft this Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 186 of 254 PageID# 5184 Robert S. - Direct 467 1 A. He did finally. 2 Q. Does it mention the postman at all? 3 A. No. 4 Q. That's something he told you during the meeting? 5 A. Yes, it is. 6 Q. What's reflected in paragraph 4? 7 mission, what does it say in paragraph 4? 8 A. 9 building of the mailbox and so on, and he showed us those. After going to the That he of his own volition took pictures inside the 10 Q. Prior to that sentence, does it reflect that he had been 11 to the office more than once? 12 A. 13 him, couldn't figure out how to get in. 14 finally found it. 15 Q. 16 then he took some pictures? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did he have the pictures with him at the meeting? 19 A. He did. 20 Q. As best you can recall, what was done with the pictures? 21 A. I gave them -- I left them in the New York office, where 22 we were. 23 Q. And in paragraph 5? 24 A. It's an assessment that his stumbling around and being 25 very obviously not a trained intelligence agent probably added Yes. He went several times, didn't have the stuff with This is once he And so once he finally found it, he left the package, and Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 187 of 254 PageID# 5185 Robert S. - Direct 468 1 to his credibility. 2 Q. 3 as to a response? 4 A. 5 we alerted Merlin to begin checking his mailbox regularly 6 and -- that's his, you know, post office box -- and advise us 7 the first time of any sign that anyone was checking up on him. 8 Q. 9 place? And continuing that paragraph, what was your expectation We do not expect any quick answer from the Iranians, but About how long do you, do you recall this meeting taking 10 A. Hour, hour and a half, two hours. We were all in quite a 11 good mood. 12 Q. 13 concerns/issues with the delivery of the package as it related 14 to the plans? 15 A. 16 completed. 17 Q. 18 delivery of the plans? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Was he also pleased with the, the mission? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you have Exhibit 45 there with you? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Is that another cable? 25 A. Yes. At that meeting, did, did Merlin express any No. He was happy and relieved that his difficult task was And did Mr. Sterling express any concerns about the Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 188 of 254 PageID# 5186 Robert S. - Direct 469 1 Q. Dated April 6 of 2000? 2 A. From New York to Langley. 3 Q. And this is reporting on a meeting between the defendant 4 and Merlin? 5 A. And myself as well. 6 Q. And what is the subject of the meeting? 7 A. Just follow-up to see if he'd received any contact and to 8 give him some guidance as to what to do if he did, and giving 9 him the, the new agreement that he periodically had to sign 10 with us. 11 Q. 12 Iranians? 13 A. 14 relationship with us. 15 Q. 16 cable? 17 A. It is. 18 Q. What is the date of that cable? 19 A. 5th of May, 2000. 20 Q. And who was the author of that cable? 21 A. I was. 22 Q. And who was that directed to? 23 A. It was directed to the New York office and other agency 24 offices overseas. 25 Q. At that point, had he received any response from, from the No. And I asked him if he'd be willing to continue his That's in paragraph 3. And moving to Government Exhibit 46, is that another And the defendant was still at the New York office at this Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 189 of 254 PageID# 5187 Robert S. - Direct 470 1 point? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And would you read what you say in paragraph 2? 4 A. "Refs" -- ref messages -- "are excellent news. 5 that despite Merlin's bumbling, he managed to get the 6 Classified Project 1 deception materials into exactly the right 7 hands. 8 couriered them back to Iran rather than rejecting them at the 9 outset. He was still a case officer. It appears Better still, the targets took them seriously and Since the goal of the operation ultimately is to waste 10 as much Iranian nuclear weapons expertise and money as 11 possible, we are off to a good start. 12 and so on. 13 Q. 14 had? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And in paragraph 3, what are you discussing in that 17 paragraph? 18 A. The next meeting with Merlin. 19 Q. And that will be in May? 20 A. That will be in May. 21 Q. Were you anticipating a change from Mr. Sterling as case 22 officer to a new case officer? 23 A. 24 what we had learned, we were going to put him on notice to be 25 still more alert of his surroundings because we now had We must now await" -- This is informing Mr. Sterling of information that you Yes, we were, and we were also -- without telling Merlin Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 190 of 254 PageID# 5188 Robert S. - Direct 471 1 intelligence that the Iranians had taken his package back with 2 them. 3 Q. 4 dated May 25 of 2000? 5 A. Yes, it is. 6 Q. And is that from New York to headquarters, to Langley? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Does this cable concern the change from one case officer 9 to another? Moving to the next cable, Exhibit 47? Is that a cable 10 A. It does. 11 Q. And that's from the defendant to a Mr. Y.? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. In that cable, in paragraph 2, the second sentence, "Case 14 officers did not/not inform him that we had learned that the 15 Iranians took his packet of information seriously and arranged 16 to courier it back to Iran, but suggested instead that Merlin 17 be alert to any sign of monitoring or any efforts at contact by 18 the Iranians, since they would probably be checking him out 19 right now." 20 Was that a discussion that you had had with you and 21 the new case officer? 22 A. And with Merlin. 23 Q. What does it mean when it says, "Case officers did not/not 24 inform him"? 25 A. We didn't tell him that we had learned that the Iranians Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 191 of 254 PageID# 5189 Robert S. - Direct 472 1 had taken the package back to Iran. 2 needed to be cautious and aware of his surroundings. 3 Q. And that's reflected then in the balance of the cable? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And at this point, the defendant was no longer part of 6 Classified Program No. 1? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. And from that point on, he would not receive any 9 additional cable traffic or information about the operation? 10 A. 11 12 We did tell him that he That's correct. THE COURT: Mr. Trump, how much longer is your direct going to go? 13 MR. TRUMP: Thirty to -- 14 THE COURT: All right, we might as well -- 15 MR. TRUMP: We have a few other topics to cover. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 Have you finished this particular segment? 18 MR. TRUMP: We can take a break now if you'd like. 19 THE COURT: All right, I don't like jurors really to 20 sit more than about an hour and a half, hour and 40 minutes. 21 So why don't we take the afternoon break. 22 4:00. We'll reconvene at 23 (Recess from 3:40 p.m., until 4:00 p.m.) 24 (Defendant and Jury present.) 25 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Trump? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 192 of 254 PageID# 5190 Robert S. - Direct 473 1 BY MR. TRUMP: 2 Q. 3 part of Classified Program No. 1, correct? 4 A. That's correct, after the change. 5 Q. And who is the case officer? 6 A. Steve Y. 7 Q. And is Merlin still an active human asset working with the 8 CIA? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. To your knowledge, at least as far as what Merlin told you 11 or any of the case officers, was there any response by the 12 Iranians? 13 A. No. 14 Q. What were you planning to do as a result of that? 15 A. We were planning after a certain, a decent interval to 16 send him back to them and say, "How about it?" 17 Q. And was that in -- were you planning that in early 2003? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And do you have the exhibit book with Exhibit 103? 20 A. 103? 21 22 Mr. Sterling, at this point, the defendant is no longer There was consideration of that at that time. THE COURT: Any objection to 103? The jurors should not look at that yet because we haven't admitted it. 23 MR. POLLACK: No, Your Honor. 24 THE COURT: 25 (Government's Exhibit No. 103 was received in No objection, 103 is in. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 193 of 254 PageID# 5191 Robert S. - Direct 1 474 evidence.) 2 THE COURT: Now the jury may turn to it. 3 BY MR. TRUMP: 4 Q. Is that another cable? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What's the date of that cable? 7 A. 11 March '03. 8 Q. And who is the, the author of that cable? 9 A. Let me see. 10 I am. 11 Q. And where is that cable being sent? 12 A. To New York. 13 Q. And what does it concern? 14 A. It concerns the possibility of an additional approach to 15 the Iranians in a different place. 16 Q. And is that specifically what's discussed in paragraph 8? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And what happened with those plans? 19 A. After the initial leak of the operation was made known to 20 us, we had to drop them. 21 Q. 22 with the CIA in April of 2003? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. You understood that there was no publication of any 25 article at that time? And what you're referring to is the contact by James Risen Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 194 of 254 PageID# 5192 Robert S. - Direct 475 1 A. I understood that senior U.S. government officials were 2 able to head it off. 3 Q. 4 publication? 5 A. 6 That's the kind of safe area in which we work. 7 has taken a secrecy agreement and signed an oath to protect 8 secrets. 9 we were afraid that once they learned of this, there was the Why didn't you go ahead anyway if there had been no The New York Times and Mr. Risen are not in a SCIF. None of them In fact, their business is to disseminate them. So 10 potential that it would leak to the Iranians. 11 Q. So you decided not to pursue that approach? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And in your opinion, was there a potential loss of 14 intelligence as a result? 15 A. 16 we had provided, a three-year, five-year period to assess them 17 and decide whether they wanted to get back to Merlin would not 18 be unreasonable. 19 Q. 20 develop? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you some specific questions which 23 because of the rules of the trial, I'd like you to answer just 24 yes or no. 25 and then came back as a contractor? Yes. With something as complex as the, the modified plans Had you been involved in operations that took that long to Longer. You mentioned that you had left the agency briefly Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 195 of 254 PageID# 5193 Robert S. - Direct 476 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And between that time and 2003, was Merlin involved in 3 other similar operations? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. By similar, was it involving Merlin as a human asset? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And by similar, was it an operation involving modified 8 plans to a nuclear weapons component? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And by similar, was it involving a, a foreign approach? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And by similar, was it targeting other countries that may 13 be -- at least the United States government believed may be 14 interested in developing nuclear weapons capability? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And all that was occurring between roughly 2001 and 2003? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Again, to the extent of the defendant's employment with 19 the CIA, he would not have been read into any of those programs 20 subsequent to any of those operations or cables or anything 21 like that subsequent to May of 2000? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. I think I asked you this before: 24 Merlin, you used his true first name? 25 THE COURT: When, when you met with Yes, that has been asked and answered. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 196 of 254 PageID# 5194 Robert S. - Direct 477 1 Let's start moving this along, Mr. Trump. 2 BY MR. TRUMP: 3 Q. 4 defendant call Mr. Merlin by his true first name? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. When the book was published -- when did you become aware 7 that the book had been published? 8 A. Just as it was published. 9 Q. In early 2006? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. At that time, were you planning to use Merlin in an 12 operation completely unrelated to Classified Program 1? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And what happened with those plans as a result of the 15 publication of the book? 16 A. We had to drop them. 17 Q. And in your opinion, was that the potential loss of 18 valuable intelligence? 19 A. Yes, it was. 20 Q. As far as Classified Program No. 1 was concerned, did you 21 consider the publication of the book affecting that? 22 A. 23 efforts for nought. 24 Q. So you never, never used the type of operation again? 25 A. No. When you and the defendant met with Mr. Merlin, did the Yes. It shut it down completely and made all of our Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 197 of 254 PageID# 5195 Robert S. - Direct 478 1 Q. Were you ever able to use Merlin as a human asset again? 2 A. After when? 3 Q. After the publication of the book. 4 A. No. 5 Q. In your opinion, was that the potential loss of valuable 6 intelligence capability? 7 A. 8 on behalf of the United States. 9 Q. Was that a yes answer? 10 A. That's a yes answer. 11 Q. And what were those unique characteristics? 12 A. There's a very small group of Russian nuclear weapons 13 experts who are willing to help the United States whom we 14 trust. 15 Venn diagram, and he was there. 16 Q. Did you continue to pay him for a brief period? 17 A. The agency did, yes. 18 Q. And at some point, that was ended as well, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you know when that ended? 21 A. I don't know exactly. 22 Q. Now, based upon your experience both as a case officer, 23 supervisor, senior case officer as part of the 24 Counterproliferation Division, do you have an opinion as to the 25 potential damage caused by the publication of the book? He had unique characteristics which we could no longer use So there's a very tiny population in the middle of that Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 198 of 254 PageID# 5196 Robert S. - Direct 479 1 A. I do have an opinion. 2 Q. Was there potential damage, potential harm to the 3 intelligence methods employed in this operation? 4 A. 5 playbook, and this disclosed one particular play in very 6 considerable detail to everyone in the world because it was 7 published in a book, not just to foreign intelligence agencies 8 but to everyone who might care to read it or hear about it on 9 the Internet. Yes. There are a limited number of plays in one's 10 Q. And what specific methods do you believe were compromised? 11 A. The dangling of what appeared to be an accurate Russian 12 nuclear weapons plan that, in fact, had been compromised by our 13 National Labs, that showed a capability that we have that we 14 don't want everyone to know about, and it particularly 15 compromised that we had Russians who were formerly in the 16 Russian nuclear weapons program who were cooperating with the 17 CIA. 18 Q. 19 operations are used by all sorts of intelligence services, 20 right? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. What made this one different in your opinion? 23 A. The details that were, that were released. 24 particularly sensitive involving nuclear weapons technology, 25 Russia, the United States, and Iran. Why is -- let me back up. Deception, dangle-types It was I have been an overt CIA Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 199 of 254 PageID# 5197 Robert S. - Direct 480 1 employee since 1993, when another government agency 2 inadvertently declared me to the world, so it doesn't bother me 3 that people know that I'm associated with the CIA. 4 much bothers me if they know exactly what I'm doing there, and 5 this is -- this kind of case reveals exactly what we're doing, 6 and that's why it's particularly damaging. 7 Q. 8 intelligence services take steps to counter what they learn by 9 these types of disclosures? It very In your opinion, do foreign countries, foreign 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And what type of countermeasures can be employed? 12 A. Well, they would certainly be on the lookout for anything 13 at all involving a Russian or similar former nuclear person 14 presenting plans. 15 anything that they gathered themselves, not necessarily by a 16 volunteer but by their own espionage efforts, that could have 17 been compromised by us, and it flags capabilities that our 18 government has to any and all opponents that we might have in 19 the world. 20 Q. 21 to infiltrate and gather intelligence with respect to its 22 nuclear weapons program? 23 A. Yes, explicitly. 24 Q. And what steps could a country like Iran take as a result? 25 A. Well, certainly they stopped wasting any time on our fire They would want to look very carefully at Was Iran, for example, put on notice of the CIA's effort Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 200 of 254 PageID# 5198 Robert S. - Direct 481 1 set plans. 2 information that they had gathered -- 3 4 They probably took a very hard look at any other MR. POLLACK: this. Your Honor, I'm going to object to I think we're now into the area of speculation. 5 THE COURT: I think this is speculative. I'm going 6 to sustain the objection. 7 BY MR. TRUMP: 8 Q. In your opinion, could Iran take countermeasures? 9 A. Iran could take countermeasures. 10 Q. And could they be as simple as shoring up its own internal 11 security? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Is that potentially damaging to U.S. intelligence efforts? 14 A. It is. 15 Q. And why is that? 16 A. The better Iranian security is, the more likely they are 17 to catch American spies or uncover our technical operations 18 like this. 19 Q. Was Russia put on notice by the publication of the book? 20 A. Yes, it was. 21 Q. And were they put on notice that Merlin was cooperating 22 with the United States government? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What does that do with the value of any information 25 obtained by the United States from Merlin? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 201 of 254 PageID# 5199 Robert S. - Direct 482 1 A. The Russian government would now know that anything that 2 Merlin knew had been compromised to us. 3 Q. And why is that significant? 4 A. Because they can then take countermeasures against his 5 body of knowledge and say, oh, he might have revealed 6 such-and-such, and so we need to make changes in our weapons. 7 Q. 8 know what Merlin told us. 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. And we lost that advantage? 11 A. We lost that advantage with the publication of the book. 12 Q. In addition to intelligence methods, is there an effect on 13 intelligence sources as the result of the publication of this 14 book? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And what do you mean by that? 17 A. We made promises to Merlin that we would protect the fact 18 of his cooperation with the CIA. 19 That to any thinking person who is considering cooperating with 20 the CIA, that's an indication that we might not be able to 21 protect them, either. 22 Q. 23 secrecy of the asset but the asset's relationship with the 24 agency? 25 A. In other words, we have an advantage if the Russians don't It has a chilling effect. We were not able to do that. And does that -- that promise extends not just to the That's the most important thing to protect, that they are Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 202 of 254 PageID# 5200 Robert S. - Direct 483 1 cooperating with us. 2 Q. 3 a potential damage in the loss of intelligence as a result? 4 A. Yes, there is. 5 Q. Now, you mentioned that you stopped using Merlin 6 operationally; is that right? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. In your opinion, was the information in the book specific 9 enough that Russia could identify him? And so in your opinion, does this potentially -- is there 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And does that in your opinion place him in potential 12 danger? 13 A. 14 members to travel to Russia to visit relatives or whatever. 15 Q. 16 the Iranians? 17 A. 18 is, too. 19 Q. 20 that have on relationship with foreign intelligence services 21 and foreign governments? 22 A. 23 protect secrets that they provide to us in exchange for secrets 24 that we provide to them with our allies. 25 Q. Yes. It makes it impossible for him or any of his family And does it place him in potential danger with respect to Yes, it does, because I'm sure they can figure out who he The publication of the book, what effect, if any, does It again demonstrates that the CIA may not be able to And does the CIA work closely with foreign intelligence Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 203 of 254 PageID# 5201 Robert S. - Direct 484 1 services? 2 A. With select ones, yes, it does. 3 Q. And in your opinion, would they have to think twice 4 sometimes before working with the United States if they feel we 5 cannot keep our secrets? 6 A. 7 what they told us. 8 Q. 9 of intelligence? They would probably choose to limit the sensitivity of That's what I would do. In your opinion, does that represent a potential loss of, 10 A. It does. 11 Q. Now, do you have in front of you, I believe it's Exhibit 12 132? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And do you have the version that has paragraph numbers in 15 it? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And is this chapter 9 of State of War by James Risen? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Have you read it? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. More than once? 22 A. More than once. 23 THE COURT: Is that exhibit in the jurors' notebook? 24 MR. TRUMP: I don't believe so, Your Honor. 25 THE COURT: All right. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 204 of 254 PageID# 5202 Robert S. - Direct 485 1 MR. TRUMP: To the extent we can use the screen. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 BY MR. TRUMP: 4 Q. 5 paragraph numbers, so I'll give you a number, and if you could 6 refer to that? 7 on page? 8 A. 209. 9 Q. 209? I'm going to jump around a little bit with respect to the 10 Would you go to paragraph 83? And that will be Paragraph 83, is that a summary of Operation Merlin? 11 A. It's an incorrect and somewhat overstated summary, but 12 basically it summarizes the program. 13 Q. 14 surprise when its scientists try to explode their new bomb, is 15 that -- 16 A. 17 to the point -- we thought they would discover that they could 18 not make this fire set work long before they wasted it on some 19 very scarce highly enriched uranium or plutonium. 20 Q. But the basic outline of Merlin is there in paragraph 83? 21 A. Yes, it is. 22 Q. I apologize for calling it Operation Merlin because that's 23 how it's referred to in the book. 24 brief description of Classified -- 25 A. For example, the, the part about Tehran getting a big That's an exaggeration. We did not think they would get This is Classified -- a Classified Project 1, yes. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 205 of 254 PageID# 5203 Robert S. - Direct 486 1 Q. And, of course, the defendant was aware of the general 2 outline of Classified Program No. 1? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And paragraph 85, which is on page 210? 5 sentence: 6 weapons blueprints from a Russian scientist and had forwarded 7 them to one of the national laboratories," is that generally a 8 description of what was provided by Human Asset No. 2? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And again, was that fact known to the defendant? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And paragraph 86, "Scientists at the national laboratory 13 were asked to implant flaws into the Russian blueprints. 14 flaws were supposed to be so clever and well hidden that no one 15 could detect their presence." 16 A. It is. 17 Q. And again, was the defendant aware of that fact? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And paragraph 87, is that accurate? 20 A. Yes, it is. 21 Q. And again, the defendant was aware of that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Paragraph 88, is that accurate? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And was the defendant aware of that? The first "The CIA had obtained genuine Russian nuclear The Is that an accurate statement? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 206 of 254 PageID# 5204 Robert S. - Direct 487 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Paragraph 79, the very first sentence of 79, is that a 3 fair statement in that first sentence? 4 A. It is. 5 Q. And again, something the defendant was aware of? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Paragraph 28 on page -- 8 THE COURT: 198? 9 MR. TRUMP: 198. 10 Q. 11 "Before he defected, he had worked as an engineer at 12 Arzamas-16, the original center of the Soviet nuclear weapons 13 program and the Russian equivalent of Los Alamos" -- 14 15 It mentions there that in talking about the Russian, THE COURT: day. 16 Whoa, whoa. Mr. Trump, it's late in the You've got to speak up if you're going to be reading it. MR. TRUMP: I'm sorry, Your Honor. 17 Q. The sentence beginning, "Before he defected, he had worked 18 as an engineer at Arzamas-16," is part of that accurate? 19 A. Part of it. 20 Q. Which part? 21 A. That he worked at Arzamas-16. 22 Q. Was he a defector? 23 A. No, he wasn't. 24 Q. Paragraph 19, it's inaccurate to say he went through a CIA 25 defector program; is that correct? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 207 of 254 PageID# 5205 Robert S. - Direct 488 1 A. That is correct. 2 Q. Is it accurate to say he endured long debriefings in which 3 CIA experts and scientists from the National Laboratories tried 4 to drain him of everything he knew about the status of Russia's 5 nuclear weapons program? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. And is that a fact known to the defendant? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Paragraph 24, do you have that in front of you, on page 10 197? 11 A. I do. 12 Q. "The Russian's assignment from the CIA was to pose as an 13 unemployed and greedy scientist who was willing to sell his 14 soul -- and the secrets of the atomic bomb -- to the highest 15 bidder. 16 the nuclear blueprints to the Iranians. 17 recognize their value and rush them back to their superiors in 18 Tehran." 19 By hook or by crook, the CIA told him, he was to get They would quickly Other than the fact that this was a fire set and not 20 an entire atomic bomb, is that a fairly accurate statement? 21 A. 22 the highest bidder by hook or by crook. 23 demonstrated that this was done very carefully, but it is an 24 accurate, if overheated, description of the operation. 25 Q. It overstates the eagerness of all of us and, you know, I think we have And what Merlin's role in the operation was? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 208 of 254 PageID# 5206 Robert S. - Direct 489 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And again, the defendant was aware of that fact? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Paragraph 25, does that paragraph describe in part the San 5 Francisco meeting? 6 A. It does. 7 Q. And does it mention the wine tasting trip to Sonoma 8 Country, although it's Sonoma County? 9 A. It does. 10 Q. And again, that's not something that's reflected in any 11 cables, is it? 12 A. No. 13 Q. It says, "In a luxurious San Francisco hotel room, a 14 senior CIA official involved in the operation walked the 15 Russian through the details of the plan." 16 Were you the senior CIA official who walked the 17 Russian through the details of the plan? 18 A. I was. 19 Q. Was it a luxurious hotel room? 20 A. No, it was a very middle of the road. 21 keep a low profile, not show off. 22 Q. 23 the National Laboratories to go over the blueprints that he was 24 supposed to give the Iranians. 25 We were trying to It further states that he brought in experts from one of Was there an expert from the National Lab? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 209 of 254 PageID# 5207 Robert S. - Direct 490 1 A. 2 the National Lab experts and was essentially their mouthpiece 3 to, to us. 4 Q. And Mr. G. was known to Merlin as Len? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Paragraph -- and what's in the previous paragraph, 7 obviously, was known to the defendant, paragraph 25? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Paragraph 26 on page 198, it reads that the senior CIA 10 Not directly, but there was Mr. G., who was in touch with officer could see that the Russian was nervous. 11 Was Merlin nervous during the San Francisco meeting? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you try to downplay the significance of what they were 14 asking him to do? 15 A. 16 because I did not want to focus on the fact that the plans were 17 intentionally flawed. 18 Q. 19 that paragraph is true? 20 A. 21 were going to give the Iranians a working nuclear device or the 22 plans thereof or do anything else illegal. 23 Q. 24 serious? 25 A. I tried to explain it in terms of intelligence collection So the part about the intelligence-gathering effort in Yes. And certainly there was never the suggestion that we Did you ever say that it was all a game, nothing too No. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 210 of 254 PageID# 5208 Robert S. - Direct 491 1 Q. As far as the intelligence-gathering effort of this 2 mission, was the defendant aware of that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Paragraph 27 on the same page, "The Russian reluctantly 5 agreed, but he was still clearly suspicious of the CIA's 6 motives." 7 Did you see any reluctance in Merlin? 8 A. No, nor suspicion. He wanted to improve the product. 9 was not questioning our motives. He 10 Q. And was that something that we discussed ad nauseam 11 through the cables, his eagerness to fulfill his mission? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Paragraph 28, the first part of that paragraph, "He was 14 afraid because he fully understood the value of the information 15 he was supposed to pass to the Iranians," again, did you sense 16 any fear in Merlin at this point? 17 A. 18 risk did he start to show signs of trepidation, and he did 19 indeed understand the value of the information he was supposed 20 to pass, but he also knew that it was incomplete and wouldn't 21 work. 22 Q. And were you, in fact, putting him in harm's way? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And did he understand that? 25 A. He did. No. And only as he got closer to his actually taking the Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 211 of 254 PageID# 5209 Robert S. - Direct 492 1 Q. So it was reasonable for him to have some concern. 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Paragraph 52, we're still on the San Francisco trip. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Paragraph 52 states that he -- that would have been 6 Merlin -- could not stop thinking about his trip to San 7 Francisco, when he had studied the blueprints the CIA had given 8 him. 9 identified a flaw. Within minutes of being handed the designs, he had "This isn't right," he told the CIA 10 officers gathered around the hotel room. 11 wrong." 12 "There is something He did express some questions about the plans; is 13 that right? 14 A. 15 work," and then he explained that we had put things in the, in 16 the CAD/CAM -- we put things on the parts list that we did not 17 put on the CAD/CAM or the schematic. 18 Q. 19 no straight answer from the CIA men in the room. 20 San Francisco meeting seemed surprised by the Russian's 21 assertion that the blueprints didn't look quite right, but no 22 one wanted to enlighten him further on the matter, either." 23 My recollection of his exact words were, "This won't And it goes on to, "His comments prompted stony looks, but No one in the Is that accurate? 24 A. No, it is not. 25 Q. You testified before as to what happened at the meeting? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 212 of 254 PageID# 5210 Robert S. - Direct 493 1 A. That I immediately took his concern seriously and tasked 2 Len G. to look into them with first the Human Asset 2, the 3 designer, and then to initiate contact with Walt C. at the lab 4 to make sure that everything was as it was supposed to be, and 5 I did that in front of Merlin so he knew that we were taking 6 his comments seriously. 7 Q. Now, do you see paragraphs 53 and 54 on page 203? 8 A. Um-hum. 9 Q. Now, Mr. Sterling, the defendant, was present during the 10 hotel room meeting? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Was he stunned by the Russian's statement? 13 A. That's a value judgment. 14 Q. Did he appear to be stunned? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you have a private conversation with Mr. Sterling 17 during a break? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And did you describe accurately that conversation for the 20 jury previously? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. Is it accurately reflected here in the book? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Paragraph 55? 25 information the defendant provided you, he didn't have any such I don't -- I can't say. Now, as far as you know in terms of what Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 213 of 254 PageID# 5211 Robert S. - Direct 494 1 fears? 2 A. 3 almost year and, what, November, December, January, February, 4 March, year and five months between this meeting and the 5 delivery of the plans to the Iranians. 6 Q. 7 according to the book, his fears were that we were handing over 8 nuclear technology to the Iranians, correct? 9 A. He did not have, and he never expressed them to me in the And based upon your reading of this chapter of the book, That we were handing them plans that would enable them to 10 build a working weapon. 11 Q. A pretty big fear? 12 A. Pretty big fear. 13 Q. But never articulated to you? 14 A. Never. 15 Q. Paragraph 48 on page 202: 16 that he was the go-between for the other Russian scientist who 17 had brought the nuclear blueprints out of Arzamas." 18 "The Russian's cover story was Was that, in essence, part of the cover story? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And that was an accurate summary of that in the book? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And again, the defendant was aware of that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And it goes on, "In truth, he had never met the other 25 defector, but that didn't matter." Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 214 of 254 PageID# 5212 Robert S. - Direct 1 495 Was Human Asset No. 2 a defector? 2 A. No, he wasn't. 3 Q. But he was a Russian engineer? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And Merlin had not met him? 6 A. No, he had not. 7 Q. It goes on to say, "The story would help answer any 8 question the Iranians might have about how he came to acquire 9 the blueprints, which were not easy to access or remove from 10 Arzamas." 11 Was that part of the legend? 12 A. Yes, it was. 13 Q. And Mr. Sterling, the defendant, was aware of that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Paragraph 49 on page -- excuse me, paragraph 49 on page 16 203: 17 that he now lived in the United States. 18 close to the truth as possible. 19 America didn't mean he was working for the CIA." "The Russian was also told not to try to hide the fact 20 His story should be as Just because he was living in Is that a fairly accurate statement of Merlin's 21 instructions? 22 A. It is quite accurate. 23 Q. And again, the defendant was aware of that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Paragraph 20, paragraph 20: "One secret CIA report said Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 215 of 254 PageID# 5213 Robert S. - Direct 496 1 that the Russian 'was a known handling problem due to his 2 demanding and overbearing nature.' 3 that he was also a 'sensitive asset' who could be used in a 4 'high-priority covert-action operation.'" 5 Yet the same report stated Were you aware of any such report? 6 A. No, I was not. 7 Q. Do you know what a performance appraisal report is? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What is that? 10 A. It is the way that we assess our subordinates and record 11 their successes and failures for the personnel record. 12 Q. 13 project working closely with the defendant, did you write his 14 performance appraisal? 15 A. 16 responsibilities were in Langley. 17 Q. Had you ever seen any of his performance appraisals? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Are they initially marked Secret? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Paragraph 21: 22 to become an American citizen and had kept him on the payroll, 23 to the tune of $5,000 a month." Even though you were the senior case officer on this No. 24 25 He was in the New York office, and my He did not work for me. ". . . the CIA had arranged for the Russian Had the CIA arranged for Merlin to become an American citizen? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 216 of 254 PageID# 5214 Robert S. - Direct 497 1 A. No. He did it on his own. 2 Q. But he was, in fact, an American citizen eventually? 3 A. Eventually. 4 Q. A fact known to the defendant? 5 A. Yes. 6 LPR, who is in the pipeline for citizenship. 7 Q. He knew he was certainly in the process. He was an And -- 8 THE COURT: 9 THE WITNESS: LPR is lawful permanent resident. Yes, ma'am. 10 BY MR. TRUMP: 11 Q. 12 least initially at the time the defendant was the case officer 13 for Merlin, was his salary $5,000 a month? 14 A. Yes, for part of that time. 15 Q. And then as we discussed in some of the cables, he got a 16 raise? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. So Mr. Sterling was aware of that fact? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Paragraph 22, "The CIA was placing him on the front lines 21 of a plan that seemed to be completely at odds with the 22 interests of the United States . . .." At the time that the defendant was the case officer, at 23 The CIA was placing him on the front lines of a plan; 24 is that right? 25 A. Yes. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 217 of 254 PageID# 5215 Robert S. - Direct 498 1 Q. Was it completely at odds with the interests of the United 2 States? 3 A. Nobody from me on up in the U.S. government thought so. 4 Q. The balance of that paragraph says, ". . . it had taken a 5 lot of persuading by his CIA case officer to convince him to go 6 through with what appeared to be a rogue operation." 7 Who was the case officer between the San Francisco 8 meeting and the Vienna trip? 9 A. Mr. Sterling. 10 Q. Did you see any evidence that it took a lot of persuading 11 by his CIA case officer to convince him to go through what 12 appeared to be a rogue operation? 13 A. 14 Merlin correctly, but other than a couple of outbursts, which 15 he quickly corrected himself, there was never any doubt that 16 Merlin was going to go through with it, nor was there any 17 suggestion of a rogue operation. 18 from the fact that we were being so meticulous in obtaining the 19 appropriate approvals before proceeding. 20 Q. 21 convince him -- even though the officer had doubts about the 22 plan as well." I saw that it took a lot of case officer skill to guide Indeed, the frustrations came And paragraph 23 says, "The case officer worked hard to 23 Did the defendant ever express any such doubts to 24 you? 25 A. No. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 218 of 254 PageID# 5216 Robert S. - Direct 1 2 MR. POLLACK: THE COURT: Sustained. That is becoming repetitive, MR. TRUMP: Judge, we have to go through the book and Mr. Trump. 5 6 Your Honor, I'm going to object. That's been asked and answered many times. 3 4 499 establish -- 7 THE COURT: 8 of the book. 9 BY MR. TRUMP: You don't have to go through every word You've made the point. 10 Q. Paragraph 35, without reading it, is that an accurate 11 statement? 12 A. 13 assets as defectors. 14 Q. And paragraph 36? 15 A. This is one of the few paragraphs in State of War that I 16 agree with. 17 Q. And so that's a fairly accurate statement? 18 A. It is. 19 Q. And as to 35 and 36, that information was known to the 20 defendant? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Paragraph 37? 23 operation, to get Merlin to reach out to Iranians? 24 A. It was. 25 Q. And again, the defendant was aware of that? Yes, other than the description of both of these human Without reading it, that was part of the Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 219 of 254 PageID# 5217 Robert S. - Direct 500 1 A. He was directing it. 2 Q. And in paragraphs 38, 39, 40, all continuing that same 3 theme, the reach out by Merlin to the Iranians? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And that was something the defendant was aware of? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Paragraph 43, was there contact with an Iranian professor? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Was it from meeting him at a conference? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Was it through the e-mail traffic? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So other than that, it was a fact that he had made contact 14 with an Iranian professor? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And the defendant was aware of that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Paragraph 44, again, other than suggesting that this was 19 an encounter at a conference, were there follow-up e-mails? 20 A. Yes, there were. 21 Q. And the defendant was aware of that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And helped coach Merlin through those e-mails? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Paragraph 46, is that accurate? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 220 of 254 PageID# 5218 Robert S. - Direct 501 1 A. Not quite. 2 Q. What is not accurate about that? 3 A. That a high-ranking official would be traveling to Vienna 4 and visiting the Iranian mission. 5 Q. What was true about the operation at that time? 6 A. That an appropriate person for us to approach would be in 7 Vienna. 8 Q. And that was Iranian Official No. 2 in the cables? 9 A. Actually, it was Official No. 1. 10 Q. Excuse me. 11 A. It was Official 1 who would be in Vienna, would be the 12 best subject for us to approach. 13 Q. 14 exchanged e-mails with? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, what is that? 17 A. This is a draft of the letter that Merlin was instructed 18 to print off and include with the package that went to the 19 Iranians. 20 Q. And does this appear to be a nearly final draft? 21 A. It does. 22 Q. With very few minor changes to the ones -- the one that we 23 discussed in the, in the cable? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Between the one in the cable and this one, do you recall And Iranian Official 2 was the person that Merlin had Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 221 of 254 PageID# 5219 Robert S. - Direct 502 1 what changes were made? 2 A. I think we sharpened the reference to being paid. 3 Q. Now -- 4 A. Yes, here it is: 5 Q. And where is that? 6 A. That's in the next-to-the-last paragraph. 7 Q. Paragraph -- 8 A. 62. 9 Q. 62? 10 ". . . I expect to be paid for that." But this was -- in the book, this is characterized as 11 a letter that Merlin drafted hastily in Vienna. 12 A. Right. 13 Q. Is that a fair characterization of the book? 14 A. That is how the book describes it. 15 Q. But, in fact, this was something that you, the defendant, 16 and Merlin worked on prior to his departure? 17 A. In many versions. 18 Q. To the extent that Merlin gave the defendant a copy of 19 this letter, would it need to be secured in the same way that 20 we've discussed the other documents? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And again, why is that? 23 A. Well, this lays out very clearly the principle of the 24 operation. 25 the streets in New York. This is not something that you'd want to leave on Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 222 of 254 PageID# 5220 Robert S. - Direct 503 1 Q. Does it also connect Merlin to his work at the CIA? 2 A. It does. 3 Q. So it would compromise both a source and a method? 4 5 MR. POLLACK: ground already. 6 7 THE COURT: Mr. Trump. 8 9 Your Honor, again, we've covered this I think we are getting highly repetitive, You need to start getting on new ground. MR. TRUMP: Your Honor, I'm just following up on a lot of issues that have been raised by the defense in terms of 10 what information is at issue and what information is not, and 11 we're providing -- 12 THE COURT: You need to move this, you need to move 13 this along. The book speaks for itself. You've got the cables 14 already in evidence. 15 MR. TRUMP: Your Honor, with all due respect -- 16 THE COURT: Mr. Trump, I've ruled. Let's get going here. I've ruled. 17 Let's go. 18 BY MR. TRUMP: 19 Q. 20 Honor -- was Merlin given an envelope with the blueprints 21 inside? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Was it a sealed envelope? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Was he told not to open the envelope under any Now, paragraph 56 -- I only have a few more pages, Your Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 223 of 254 PageID# 5221 Robert S. - Direct 504 1 circumstances? 2 A. No. 3 Q. The rest of the paragraph, is that -- those instructions, 4 "Keep it simple, and get out of Vienna safe and alive," is that 5 accurate? 6 A. That's accurate. 7 Q. Paragraph 47, page 202, "The CIA sent him to Vienna 8 without any backup," is that an accurate statement? 9 A. It is. 10 Q. Was the operation a what we're calling limited access 11 program? 12 A. It was. 13 Q. Was it a tightly held secret? 14 A. Yes, it was. 15 Q. And only a handful of CIA officers knew of the existence? 16 17 MR. POLLACK: already. 18 19 Your Honor, again, we've discussed this MR. TRUMP: I don't believe we discussed it in the context of the book, Your Honor. 20 THE COURT: That's correct, and so I'm allowing a 21 little of this. It's where the book is repetitive, all right, 22 that I'm going to cut Mr. Trump. 23 BY MR. TRUMP: 24 Q. And those facts were known to the defendant? 25 A. Yes. Go ahead. Overruled. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 224 of 254 PageID# 5222 Robert S. - Direct 505 1 Q. But Merlin thought he did have some backup; is that right? 2 A. He did, and in fact, we had provided him ways for him to 3 get out of trouble that would be available to anyone, a U.S. 4 legal permanent resident in Vienna. 5 Q. 6 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. 7 of Merlin following his trip, did he express any of the 8 fears/concerns that are expressed in those paragraphs, 7 9 through 13? The book has a fairly detailed description, paragraphs 7, At any point in your debriefing 10 A. Well, he certainly had trouble finding the place, but he 11 never expressed any concern about the probity and legality of 12 what we were asking him to do. 13 Q. 14 was carrying around? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Again, the defendant was aware of that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What's expressed in paragraph 16, is that -- just read it 19 to yourself. Paragraph 15, is that an accurate description of what he 20 In overheated language, but accurate. Did you ever hear that from, from Merlin? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did you ever hear that from the defendant? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Paragraphs 50 and 51, other than knowing that he needed 25 directions, were you aware of any of the information in these Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 225 of 254 PageID# 5223 Robert S. - Direct 506 1 two paragraphs? 2 A. No. 3 Q. To your knowledge, did Merlin provide you with any written 4 document detailing his adventure in Vienna? 5 A. 6 I met him. 7 Q. 8 as to any of these type of details? 9 A. Not that I recollect. 10 Q. And paragraph 57, a discussion of the purpose of the 11 letter in the book? 12 A. Um-hum. 13 Q. Was that ever discussed with Merlin? 14 A. Was what discussed? 15 Q. Did, did Merlin ever express any concerns, the ones that 16 are expressed in paragraph 57? 17 A. No. 18 Q. And again, this letter was something that was carefully 19 crafted prior to his -- 20 A. 21 it on his own initiative to warn them. 22 Q. 23 correct in 67? 24 A. It is. 25 Q. Is that a fair description of the building? Not that I recollect. I recollect an oral debriefing once And did you receive anything from the defendant in writing In which he was directed to provide rather than his doing Paragraph 67 -- sorry, 65, 66, and 67, the address is Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 226 of 254 PageID# 5224 Robert S. - Direct 507 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And the P.M. Iran that you described previously? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Paragraph 70, does that paragraph discuss his encounter 5 with the postman? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Is that something that was discussed with the defendant, 8 you, and Merlin? 9 A. Right. At the 9 March meeting in 2000, he told us about 10 the postman. 11 Q. And is that in any cable traffic? 12 A. It's not. 13 Q. Paragraph 74, I believe you testified that you had 14 received some intelligence that the materials had been 15 couriered back to Iran? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Is what's represented in paragraph 74 accurate? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Paragraph 94, as of May of 2000, when Mr. Sterling, the 20 defendant, lost access to this program, was that a correct 21 statement? 22 A. That he had not received any contact, yes, that's correct. 23 Q. Subsequently, it was a known fact that the Iranians never 24 communicated with, with Merlin, correct? 25 A. Until we dropped the operation in 2003, correct. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 227 of 254 PageID# 5225 Robert S. - Direct 508 1 Q. And again, paragraph 76, it was a fact that there had been 2 other similar operations; is that right? 3 A. Yes. 4 MR. TRUMP: Your Honor, I'd like to show the 5 defendant two exhibits that I know the defense objects to. 6 don't have to show them to the jury, and we can discuss their 7 objections later. 8 9 THE COURT: What are the numbers? We Are they not in the notebooks? 10 MR. TRUMP: No. 11 THE COURT: I mean, my notebook. 12 MR. TRUMP: I'll -- 13 THE COURT: What are the exhibit numbers? 14 MR. TRUMP: These are going to be -- these are marked 15 132B and 132C, and I'll describe them through the witness, Your 16 Honor, because I know there will be objection we can discuss 17 later. 18 THE COURT: Go ahead. 19 BY MR. TRUMP: 20 Q. You're familiar with chapter 9 of State of War, correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Are there a lot of -- is there a lot of stuff in chapter 9 23 completely unrelated to Classified Program No. 1? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And in looking at 132B, is that the same as the previous Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 228 of 254 PageID# 5226 Robert S. - Direct 1 exhibit, chapter 9, simply with all that stuff taken out? 2 3 THE COURT: In other words, you've done an edited version of the chapter 9? 4 5 509 MR. TRUMP: Just taking out all the writing that is unrelated to Classified Program No. 1 and Human Asset No. 1. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 MR. TRUMP: He's aware of what Classified Program 8 No. 1 is and Human Asset No. 1, and he just -- we just -- 9 10 Did this witness do that? THE COURT: My question was did this witness help you in doing that -- 11 MR. TRUMP: Yes. 12 THE COURT: -- or did you-all do that? 13 MR. TRUMP: Yes. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 THE WITNESS: That appears to be an accurate 16 description, that this is chapter 9 just referring to 17 Classified Program 1. 18 BY MR. TRUMP: 19 Q. And Human Asset No. 1? 20 A. And Human Asset 1. 21 Q. And then the final one, 132C, when you read chapter 9 of 22 State of War, does it jump all over the place chronologically? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. 132C is 132B, just arranged as best you could 25 chronologically? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 229 of 254 PageID# 5227 Robert S. - Direct 1 A. 510 Yes. 2 MR. TRUMP: And we can take that -- 3 THE COURT: We'll take it up later. 4 MR. TRUMP: Take that argument up later. 5 Q. And finally, Exhibit 148 in the book? 6 THE COURT: 7 MR. POLLACK: 8 THE COURT: 9 Is there any objection to 148? Yes, Your Honor. All right, we'll take that up later, too. BY MR. TRUMP: 10 Q. Other than -- do you have that in front of you? 11 A. 148, I do. 12 Q. Other than the very last entry on 148, on page 10, on the 13 left-hand side of that chart are excerpts from cables that 14 we've gone through with you? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And on the right are corresponding passages from chapter 17 9; is that right? 18 A. 19 20 MR. TRUMP: Subject to objection, we would move those three additional exhibits into evidence. 21 22 That's correct. THE COURT: All right. Well, we'll take that up after the jury has left for the day. 23 MR. TRUMP: The Court's indulgence? 24 Q. Just one additional question: You were describing Merlin 25 as a unique access -- asset, correct? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 230 of 254 PageID# 5228 Robert S. - Cross 511 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. The book discusses both Merlin and Human Asset No. 2. 3 that even a more unique situation? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And is that compromised by the publication of State of 6 War? 7 A. Was It is. 8 MR. TRUMP: Nothing further, Your Honor. 9 THE COURT: All right, cross-examination? 10 MR. POLLACK: 11 Thank you, Your Honor. CROSS-EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. POLLACK: 13 Q. 14 one of the attorneys representing Mr. Sterling. Good afternoon, Mr. S. 15 My name is Barry Pollack, and I'm Mr. S., it's fair to say that you were one of the 16 people who helped design what we're calling Classified Program 17 No. 1, correct? 18 A. That is correct. 19 Q. And you personally put a lot of time and effort into the 20 design and implementation of that program, correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. And not only did you put a lot of time and effort into it; 23 other people at the CIA put a lot of time and effort into it, 24 correct? 25 A. Correct. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 231 of 254 PageID# 5229 Robert S. - Cross 512 1 Q. And not just at the CIA. People at National Laboratory 2 put a lot of time and effort into that program, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And you believed in that program, correct? 5 A. We don't base it on belief. 6 on doing our work carefully. 7 well organized and well run. 8 Q. 9 agency to be engaging in, correct? We base it on experience and I thought that the program was You thought it was a fruitful, productive program for the 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you certainly did not want the fact of that program 12 disclosed to the general public, correct? 13 A. Certainly not. 14 Q. And in 2003, April of 2003, you learned that Jim Risen, an 15 investigative reporter for The New York Times, said that he was 16 working on a story that he was intending to publish about 17 Classified Program No. 1, correct? 18 A. I learned that, yes. 19 Q. And you learned that what Mr. Risen claimed to know about 20 the program at that point was not in your mind accurate, 21 correct? 22 A. 23 claimed at that point. 24 publication in 2006. 25 Q. I don't know exactly what Mr. Risen knew at that point or I didn't really learn that until the And in 2003, you didn't learn that he believed, that Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 232 of 254 PageID# 5230 Robert S. - Cross 513 1 Mr. Risen believed that Merlin had immediately spotted the 2 flaws in the, in the plans? 3 A. 4 had approached the agency about publishing a story about that 5 operation and that senior officials of the government had 6 persuaded The New York Times not to do it. 7 Q. 8 Classified Program No. 1 published that made it look like a 9 foolish and rogue operation, correct? I don't recall the details. Okay. I simply recall that Risen And you would not want a version of a story about 10 A. I would not want any version of the classified operation 11 published. 12 Q. 13 that made it look foolish and like a rogue operation, correct? 14 A. 15 especially concern me. 16 that concerned me. 17 Q. 18 book, correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And certainly at that point, you learned how he portrayed 21 the operation, correct? 22 A. I did. 23 Q. And you said in 2003, you thought that senior officials 24 had convinced him not to publish the story, correct? 25 A. I understand that. And you certainly wouldn't want one Well, it was not any of those things, so that didn't It was the publication of the operation In the very beginning of 2006, Mr. Risen published his The story was not published. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 233 of 254 PageID# 5231 Robert S. - Cross 514 1 Q. Right. 2 A. It wasn't convincing him; it was convincing The New York 3 Times editors. 4 Q. 5 because he published it in 2006? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to talk over you, Mr. S. And ultimately, apparently he was not convinced, correct, 8 9 And from 2003, 2004, and 2005, if you knew that he was still working on the story, you would want to dissuade him 10 from publishing it, correct? 11 A. I had no contact with him. 12 Q. Understood. 13 with that, being concerned about protecting programs from 14 publication by journalists like Mr. Risen? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And one way to convince an author not to do a story is to 17 try to convince him that he's got the story wrong, correct? 18 A. 19 Mr. Risen's principal concern, but that's my assessment of the 20 chapter. There were others at the CIA that were tasked I don't know. 21 That was not my mission. It does not seem that the accuracy was THE COURT: When there's no question pending, one 22 ought not to volunteer an answer, all right? 23 BY MR. POLLACK: 24 Q. In 2006, did you read the book? 25 A. Yes. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 234 of 254 PageID# 5232 Robert S. - Cross 515 1 Q. Did you read the entire book or just chapter 9? 2 A. Just chapter 9. 3 Q. Were you curious as to what Mr. Risen said about who his 4 sources were for chapter 9? 5 A. I didn't expect him to say anything about his sources. 6 Q. Anything about his sources for the book at all? 7 A. Correct. 8 9 MR. POLLACK: I'd like to show Mr. S. what's been marked as Defense Exhibit 1. 10 THE COURT: Is there any objection? 11 is there any objection to that? 12 before it goes on the screen. Wait a minute, Before it goes on the screen, 13 Mr. Trump, any objection to Defense 1? 14 And do I have your book? 15 MR. TRUMP: Your Honor, we do object. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 18 19 20 Do I have your exhibits? Well, then I should have a set of defense exhibits up here as well. Are you -- do you have many others you're going to be using in this examination, Mr. Pollack? MR. POLLACK: Potentially, Your Honor. Let me hand 21 two others up. 22 have objections to, and they will go in the binders that the 23 jury will receive. 24 25 I believe the other two the government does not THE COURT: I don't know anything about that. I just know that the practice is each side has their exhibits bound Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 235 of 254 PageID# 5233 Robert S. - Cross 516 1 and up here on the bench so when there's a reference to them, 2 we don't have to waste time going back and forth like this. 3 tomorrow make sure your exhibits are up here. 4 MR. POLLACK: 5 THE COURT: 6 I will, Your Honor. All right. Thank you. As to No. 1, what's the objection, Mr. Trump? 7 MR. TRUMP: Your Honor, this is a note on sources at 8 the beginning of the book. 9 specifically to chapter 9. There's nothing that relates it 10 THE COURT: Well, more than that. 11 MR. TRUMP: There's nothing that this witness can 12 So comment on. 13 THE COURT: That's the right objection. This witness 14 didn't write the book, and if you're going to talk about the 15 book, you can move it into evidence, but it's not appropriate 16 to have this witness talking about how Mr. Risen wrote his 17 book. 18 MR. POLLACK: 19 THE COURT: 20 21 22 23 Okay. What's in it is different. Let's move on. MR. POLLACK: I'm sorry, did the Court say I can move the exhibit into evidence for completeness? THE COURT: We've spent -- The State of War, the book, is evidence, 24 not the whole book because that's irrelevant. 25 first note is part of this case. I think this I will admit this exhibit, Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 236 of 254 PageID# 5234 Robert S. - Cross 1 517 but it's not proper to ask this witness questions about it. 2 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 1 was received in evidence.) 3 MR. POLLACK: 4 May I -- if it's admitted, may I publish it to the jury at this time even if I'm not going to -- 5 THE COURT: Quickly. We're running late. 6 MR. POLLACK: 7 And it says, "Many people have criticized the use of Thank you, Your Honor. 8 anonymous sources of late. Yet all reporters know that the 9 very best stories -- the most important, the most sensitive -- 10 rely on them. This book would not be possible without the 11 cooperation of many current and former officials from the Bush 12 Administration, the Intelligence Community, and other parts of 13 government. 14 matters only on the condition of anonymity." 15 Q. 16 that point, it was certainly too late to talk Mr. Risen out of 17 doing the story, correct? 18 A. 19 had been published. 20 Q. 21 was published, in March of '06, you were interviewed by the 22 FBI, correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. And the FBI asked you questions about some of the things 25 that appeared in chapter 9, correct? Many of them were willing to discuss sensitive Now, in 2006, Mr. S., when this book was published, at It was not my job to do so, but yes, it was too late. It And at that point -- at some point shortly after the book Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 237 of 254 PageID# 5235 Robert S. - Cross 518 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. And you understood that they were trying to ascertain who 3 was the source or who were the sources for various things that 4 appeared in chapter 9, correct? 5 A. I considered that to be the goal of their investigation. 6 MR. POLLACK: Now, if you can -- if we can put up 7 page 209 of the book? And if you could highlight, please, Mr. 8 Francisco, the last full paragraph, that begins with "Then 9 there was Merlin," and specifically the very first few lines 10 there, if you can blow that up? Thank you. 11 Q. 12 development of Tehran's nuclear program by sending Iran's 13 weapons experts down the wrong technical path." It says, "On paper, Merlin was supposed to stunt the 14 Do you see that, Mr. S.? 15 A. I do. 16 Q. And do you recall telling the FBI agents that "wrong 17 technical path" was -- to do this was, in fact, the purpose of 18 the program and "wrong technical path" was language that you 19 used all the time? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And, in fact, you told them that the cables would reflect 22 that, correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And if the cables reflected that language, then that 25 language could have been leaked to Mr. Risen by anybody who was Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 238 of 254 PageID# 5236 Robert S. - Cross 1 519 a recipient of the cables, correct? 2 MR. TRUMP: Objection. Speculation. 3 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it. 4 THE WITNESS: Overruled. If the cables could have been the 5 source of the leak, yes. 6 BY MR. POLLACK: 7 Q. 8 time that wasn't in cables, that might cause the investigation 9 to focus on you, correct? 10 A. But conversely, if it was language that you used all the Again, that's speculative, but I'll say yes. 11 MR. POLLACK: 12 THE COURT: 13 MR. POLLACK: 14 And if we can turn to the second page of Exhibit 6? 15 Q. 16 Government Exhibit 6? Can we go ahead and pull up Exhibit 6? Government's 6? Yes, Your Honor. And, Mr. S., this is a cable that you authored, correct, 17 Do you not have it? 18 MR. TRUMP: 19 THE WITNESS: 20 THE COURT: 21 24 25 In the exhibit book, No. 6. It was a slip of the tongue. Wait. We need Exhibit 6. Do you have Exhibit 6 there? 22 23 Do you not have the exhibit? MR. TRUMP: I think we need a bench conference, Your THE COURT: Oh, all right. Honor. Mr. Trump, bench conference, do we need the Mira? Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 239 of 254 PageID# 5237 Robert S. - Cross 520 1 MS. GUNNING: 2 MR. TRUMP: Yes, I think so. 3 THE COURT: Yes? 4 MR. TRUMP: I have to ask the witness what his 5 Yes. All right. concern is. 6 (Sealed Bench Conference B not transcribed in this 7 volume.) 8 BY MR. POLLACK: 9 Q. Mr. S., do you have Government Exhibit 6? 10 A. I do. 11 Q. And if you could look at -- well, first of all, did you -- 12 were you, in fact, the author of Government Exhibit 6? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And if you could look at the top of that second page? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. It says, "The goal is to plant this substantial piece of 17 deception information on the Iranian nuclear weapons program, 18 sending them down blind alleys, wasting their time and money, 19 and discrediting Russian designs and equipment in their eyes." 20 Correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. It does not use the phrase "wrong technical path"? 23 A. This cable does not. 24 Q. Let me have you look at Exhibit 16. 25 Exhibit 16? Are you the author of Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 240 of 254 PageID# 5238 Robert S. - Cross 521 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And if you would look at paragraph 2, please? 3 "This operation is designed to introduced 4 flawed-but-authentic-looking plans for a nuclear weapons fire 5 set into the Iranian program, with the intention of encouraging 6 the Iranians to invest considerable time, money, and effort in 7 pursuing this technical dead end," right? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. It does not use the phrase "wrong technical path"? 10 A. It's an equivalent phrase. 11 Q. But a different one, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. A different phrase from the one that appears in the book 14 on page 209, correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Which is the phrase that you used all the time, correct? 17 A. Including in discussions with Mr. Sterling. 18 Q. And -- well, but you told the FBI that the cables 19 reflected that you use it all the time, right? 20 A. 21 "technical dead end," "blind alley," "wrong technical path" are 22 equivalent expressions. 23 Q. 24 the author of Government Exhibit 6? 25 You say, Well, just as I use "fire set" or "firing set," then Let's go to Government Exhibit 46, and, Mr. S., were you MR. TRUMP: 46. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 241 of 254 PageID# 5239 Robert S. - Cross 522 1 BY MR. POLLACK: 2 Q. I'm sorry, 46. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And in paragraph 2, you say, "Since the goal of the 5 operation ultimately is to waste as much Iranian nuclear 6 weapons expertise and money as possible, we are off to a good 7 start." 8 9 Thank you, Mr. Trump. Nothing about the goal being to send them down "the wrong technical path," correct? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. Now, Classified Program No. 1 had been conceived by you 12 and others before Merlin was identified as the asset that would 13 play the role of the Russian scientist, correct? 14 A. A few weeks before, yes. 15 Q. And -- so then you were looking for somebody who could 16 play that role, correct? 17 A. 18 19 Correct. MR. POLLACK: And do you -- do you have loaded the other two defense exhibits? 20 MR. FRANCISCO: No. 21 MR. POLLACK: 22 Your Honor, I'd like to use one of the exhibits that You don't, okay. 23 I just handed up, the Bates number is C02873, which is a cable. 24 I don't believe the government has any objection to it. 25 would be Defense Exhibit 2. It Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 242 of 254 PageID# 5240 Robert S. - Cross 523 1 MR. TRUMP: No, Your Honor. 2 THE COURT: All right, then it's in. 3 Defense 2 is in. 4 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 2 was received in evidence.) 5 THE COURT: Do you have a copy -- oh, it's going to 6 be on the screen. 7 BY MR. POLLACK: 8 Q. And, Mr. S., are you the author of Defense Exhibit 2? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And is this a communication from you sort of asking if 11 people are aware of somebody that might be able to play the 12 role that, that you had in mind for this operation? 13 A. Yes, that's what it is. 14 Q. And to whom would this cable have gone out? 15 A. To a CIA field office. 16 Q. To one particular office? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And why was it sent to that particular office? 19 have reason to believe that they had somebody that would fit 20 the bill? 21 A. 22 is a lot of nuclear scientific activity, and as it suggests 23 here, "As discussed with COS," I had already had the 24 opportunity to raise the issue with one senior officer there. 25 Q. Did you This particular office is located in an area where there Did -- you had testified in your direct testimony that Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 243 of 254 PageID# 5241 Robert S. - Cross 524 1 Laurie D. had brought Mr. Merlin to your attention, correct? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Was that a result of this cable, or was that 4 independently? 5 A. That was independent. 6 Q. At some point after this cable went out? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. You asked others as well? 9 A. Here's an example. 10 Q. But that's my question: 11 there be others in addition to the people who received this 12 cable and Laurie D.? 13 A. I believe this is the only other person I asked. 14 Q. Okay. 15 correct? 16 A. It is. 17 Q. And that's fully two years before Mr. Sterling meets him, 18 correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And you assessed his suitability for the operation that 21 you had in mind, correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. And you were in the process of coming up with a legend for 24 him, correct? 25 A. I did not just ask Laurie D. Is this just an example, or would And you then met Mr. Merlin in late 1996; is that Yes. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 244 of 254 PageID# 5242 Robert S. - Cross 525 1 Q. A legend being a story, correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And that's sort of a term of art, right? 4 A. It is. 5 Q. And this is not the only operation in which you've 6 developed a legend, correct? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. Either for yourself or for others? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And what a legend is is, essentially it's an elaborate 11 ruse, right? 12 A. 13 have been twisted to suit our purposes. 14 Q. 15 the target of the operation to be able to separate which are 16 the elements of the truth and which are the fictional 17 components that have been designed by you to suit your 18 purposes, correct? 19 A. 20 supposed to be difficult. 21 Q. 22 the second full paragraph, the one that begins, "The end of the 23 Cold War." 24 A. Um-hum. 25 Q. And it says, "In the 1990s, in fact, the director of one It contains some elements of truth and other elements that And it is supposed to be difficult, if not impossible, for We don't believe in impossible, but it's certainly If we can go to page 199 of chapter 9? And let's look at Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 245 of 254 PageID# 5243 Robert S. - Cross 526 1 Russian nuclear institute killed himself, reportedly over the 2 government's failure to meet his payroll." 3 A. That's what it says. 4 Q. And that was something that was of public knowledge prior 5 to the publication of State of War, correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And, in fact, that's something that at some point you 8 discussed with Merlin? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And that conversation may well have occurred before 11 Mr. Sterling was involved in Classified Program No. 1, correct? 12 A. It might have. 13 Q. In fact, you recall telling the FBI in 2006 that that 14 conversation may have occurred before -- the conversation 15 between you and Merlin about this Russian scientist killing 16 himself may have occurred before Mr. Sterling was even involved 17 in the program? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. And that is not reflected in any cable that you're aware 20 of, is it? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Now, after Laurie D., Zach W. became the case officer for 23 Merlin? 24 A. Um-hum. 25 Q. And you, you continued with the program throughout, Correct? I believe this is something Merlin told me. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 246 of 254 PageID# 5244 Robert S. - Cross 527 1 correct? 2 A. With the program? 3 Q. Classified Program No. 1. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. So you were there while Laurie D. was there; you were 6 there while Zach W. was there, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. 9 in the program? And that's all before Mr. Sterling becomes involved 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And go to page 200 of the book. 12 bottom, I guess it's the second-to-last full paragraph that 13 starts with "His CIA case officer"? 14 If we could go toward the "His CIA case officer had coached the Russian as best 15 he could on how to make contact with the Iranians." And then 16 after talking about you can't look them up in the Yellow Pages, 17 it goes on and says in the beginning of the next paragraph, "At 18 the case officer's urging, the Russian started sending messages 19 to Iranian scientists, scholars, and even Iranian diplomats 20 stationed at the IAEA in Vienna," correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Now, the -- it is your belief that the case officer 23 referenced there is Zach W., correct? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Okay. Do you recall when you were interviewed in 2006 by Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 247 of 254 PageID# 5245 Robert S. - Cross 528 1 the FBI, telling the FBI that the case officer referred to on 2 page 200 is Zach W.? 3 A. 4 IAEA in Vienna would have come under Mr. Sterling's watch 5 rather than Zach W.'s, but certainly Zach W. started this 6 process, and Mr. Sterling continued it, but now I look at it in 7 detail, I didn't have the book in front of me when I was being 8 interviewed by the FBI, but the reference to contact with the 9 IAEA did not occur when Laurie D. or Zach W. were the case Well, looking at it more closely, any connection with the 10 officer. 11 Q. 12 clear, you did tell the FBI that you believed it was Zach W., 13 correct? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. But then now upon reflection, you believe it's some 16 amalgam, part of what is described here was done by Zach W. 17 whereas part of it was done by Mr. Sterling? 18 A. That's my belief. 19 Q. And if we can go to Exhibit 16 -- 20 Okay. So when you were speaking to the FBI, just to be THE COURT: Actually, Mr. Pollack, it is 5:30, and I 21 really try to keep the jury's schedule tight in appreciation 22 for you-all being here on time. 23 after the time limit I set for today. 24 letting you go home for the evening. 25 I'm not going to keep you here It's 5:30, so I'm Again, please remember my cautions about conducting Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 248 of 254 PageID# 5246 Robert S. - Cross 529 1 no investigation, not looking at any media coverage, Internet, 2 any kind of coverage about this case. 3 sleep, and we'll see you back here promptly tomorrow morning at 4 9:30. 5 so hopefully, it will be an easier trip in. 6 session. We should have sunshine tomorrow and no weather issues, 7 8 11 all right? And you sort of know the drill. Ms. Gunning, perhaps you could help the witness out, all right? Thank you, sir. 12 (Witness stood down.) 13 THE COURT: 14 MR. POLLACK: 15 THE COURT: 16 17 I want to stay in Sir, we'll need you back here 9:30 tomorrow morning, 9 10 Get a good night's We'll stay in session. Thank you, Your Honor. Yes, do leave your notebooks here. (Jury out.) THE COURT: All right, we have those three government 18 exhibits for which the defense have objected. My concern in 19 part on these three exhibits is that they do appear to be a way 20 of getting one particular witness's testimony sitting in the 21 jury deliberation room in a, in a somewhat artificial manner, 22 because basically what, what Mr. S. said was that he did this 23 parsing of the book and prepared these two exhibits, and to 24 some degree, that's like letting him just be in the jury room 25 testifying. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 249 of 254 PageID# 5247 530 1 Exhibit 148, I'm not even sure I know who made that. 2 I'm not sure that came in. 3 that the government might use in making its closing argument. 4 I'm not sure it's a proper exhibit. 5 That looks like a demonstrative So what I'm going to do is I'm going to not rule on 6 them tonight. 7 think they are problematic. 8 do a little bit of briefing on that. 9 issue in this case that will come back to haunt, but that's my 10 11 I'm going to keep an open mind about them. I I'll certainly allow both sides to I don't want to create an preliminary view on those three exhibits. MR. TRUMP: I'd just point out, Your Honor, that 12 there's no editorializing. 13 exhibit taking out anything that didn't relate to Classified 14 Program No. 1, which is off limits under the Court's order in 15 terms of what's at issue in this case in terms of the 16 government has only charged and is only alleging that the 17 defendant was -- disclosed to Risen the information about 18 Classified Program No. 1 and Human Asset No. 1. 19 20 21 There was nothing other than in one There is no allegation that he disclosed any of this other information. THE COURT: Yeah, but you've moved the whole -- I 22 believe you've already -- haven't you moved that exhibit in? 23 Didn't you move chapter 9 in? 24 MR. POLLACK: 25 MR. TRUMP: Yes. Chapter 9 is what it is -- Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 250 of 254 PageID# 5248 531 1 THE COURT: It is what it is. 2 MR. TRUMP: -- but the jury needs -- should have some 3 way of looking at chapter 9 and knowing what is at issue in 4 this case in terms of what information the government alleges 5 the defendant communicating as alleged in the indictment. 6 Now, chapter 9, it gives me a headache to read it, 7 Your Honor. 8 public record information. 9 something about a suicide that was public record. 10 It goes all over the place. There's interspersed Defense counsel just pointed out I think that stripping out stuff that has nothing to 11 do with Classified Program No. 1 or Human Asset No. 1 allows 12 the jury to focus on exactly what it is that the government is 13 alleging was, was communicated. 14 Obviously, we could stand up during closing and say: 15 Well, focus on this paragraph, this paragraph, this paragraph, 16 but it's, I think -- the Court has the authority and the 17 responsibility to avoid confusing the jury, and exhibits that 18 would help the jury and avoid that confusion are certainly 19 admissible. 20 And there's nothing -- there's no testimony 21 associated with the exhibit. 22 the book that relate to Classified Program No. 1 and Human 23 Asset No. 1. 24 25 It's simply those paragraphs in Haven't changed any of language at all. THE COURT: Well, it's not that unlike a summary chart when there's a great deal of data. I recognize that Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 251 of 254 PageID# 5249 532 1 these types of things can go into evidence. 2 bit different. 3 Let me hear from you, Mr. Pollack. 4 MR. POLLACK: This is a little I think it's quite different, Your 5 Honor. A summary chart is when there's evidence that's so 6 voluminous that it doesn't make sense to admit all of it and it 7 makes sense for somebody to summarize it. 8 9 Here we've admitted chapter 9 already -- the government admitted chapter 9 in its entirety. 10 it. 11 in detail. The jury has 12 This witness has spent several hours testifying about it For the sake of completeness, that is the exhibit, 13 and to rewrite the exhibit and come up with a version of 14 chapter 9 that never existed, that is, as the Court said, that 15 is at best a demonstrative exhibit. 16 exhibit that ought to be admitted into evidence and go to the 17 jury. 18 19 20 THE COURT: All right. It's not the kind of Well, as I said, I'm going to think about it. Exhibit 148 is definitely in my view a demonstrative 21 type of exhibit, where you're comparing this with that. 22 There's no witness who has said that they, in fact, did this 23 analysis, and again, even if they did, I think that's closer to 24 again letting one particular witness's view of the evidence be 25 in the jury room testifying. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 252 of 254 PageID# 5250 533 1 This jury is very attentive, and they're paying 2 attention, and I think this is probably not appropriate, but 3 I'm going to think about it. 4 now. 5 We don't need an answer on it And what I do want to find out, Mr. Pollack, is just 6 a ballpark estimate as to how long you think you're going to 7 take in your cross-examination of this witness. 8 9 MR. POLLACK: Your Honor, given, given the length of the direct, I think I'll be an hour and a half to two hours. I 10 will try to pare that down as I go through it this evening, but 11 that's what I think we're looking at. 12 13 14 15 16 THE COURT: All right. Now, is Secretary Rice going to be called tomorrow, or is she not on your schedule? MR. OLSHAN: I think it is our plan to try to fit her in tomorrow, yes, Your Honor. THE COURT: All right. I do want you to give defense 17 counsel and the Court a list of the order of witnesses you 18 intend to call tomorrow, all right? 19 other housekeeping matter we have to take care of. 20 Is there anything else? 21 MR. TRUMP: I think that's the only I would ask the Court to reconsider with 22 respect to this Exhibit 1, "Note on Sources." 23 the beginning of the book. 24 1, chapter 2, up to chapter 10. 25 witness stand. It's a page in It doesn't specify whether chapter Mr. Risen was up on the If they wanted to link this to chapter 9, they Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 253 of 254 PageID# 5251 534 1 could have. 2 There is nothing that links this to chapter 9 3 specifically, and it's -- the suggestion is, oh, he said this 4 at the beginning of the book. 5 multiple sources. 6 That must mean chapter 9 has This gets back a little bit to our discussion about 7 taking out of chapter 9 other stuff, because it's obvious that 8 there is a lot of other stuff in chapter 9. 9 THE COURT: But you can make that argument to the 10 jury. Look, I think it's -- defense is going to make an 11 argument that there may be multiple sources, but frankly, all 12 you have to prove is that Mr. Sterling was one of them. 13 MR. TRUMP: We understand that. 14 THE COURT: There could be ten sources for this book, 15 but if you convince this jury beyond a reasonable doubt that 16 one of those sources was Mr. Sterling, you've got your case, 17 and so I'm letting the defense put it in. 18 consistent with what Risen said in his testimony, that he had 19 multiple sources. 20 testimony; I don't have the transcript in front of me; and this 21 simply confirms that. 22 that point. I think it's As I recall, I think he has said that in his And your, your team can eloquently argue 23 So I'm going to overrule that objection. 24 All right, anything further? 25 It is in. If not, we'll see you-all promptly at 9:30 tomorrow morning. Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595 Case 1:10-cr-00485-LMB Document 488 Filed 08/17/15 Page 254 of 254 PageID# 5252 535 1 2 MR. POLLACK: Thank you, Your Honor. (Recess from 5:40 p.m., until 9:30 a.m., January 15, 2015.) 3 4 5 6 CERTIFICATE OF THE REPORTER I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript of the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. 7 8 9 /s/ Anneliese J. Thomson 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Anneliese J. Thomson OCR-USDC/EDVA (703)299-8595