TERRY GROSS, host: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.
Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton has a new memoir that was published this week
and became an immediate best-seller. It's called "Living History." And as you
probably know by now, she writes about her childhood, her marriage to Bill
Clinton and her life as first lady and senator from New York. The book also
covers some of the territory she had previously kept off-limits surrounding the
Monica Lewinsky scandal. I recorded an interview with Senator Clinton yesterday.

Senator Clinton, welcome to FRESH AIR.
Senator HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (New York): Thank you very much.
GROSS: When your husband was the president, he was attacked by what you
described as the vast right-wing conspiracy. He was impeached by the House. He
was investigated by the special prosecutor. Many spectators emerged from all of
that disgusted with politics, but you entered politics after this, running for
Senate. Why did you want to get deeper into politics after everything that you
saw happen to your husband?
Sen. CLINTON: I think that's obviously a really good question, and I thought
about it a lot because many of my friends and close colleagues urged me, you
know, not to run for office, not to even put my foot into this environment
which was so toxic, and the politics of personal destruction were the
unfortunate consequence of the very partisan battles that were being waged. But
I took a very hard look at what I thought was happening below the surface that
these very difficult conflicts over the direction of the country were ones that
bothered me greatly because I knew that despite the mistakes I made and
certainly acknowledge in this book and the problems that my husband and I had,
which are part of history, unfortunately, there was something else at work, and
what was at work were two competing visions of where our country should go. And
I believe that it's worth fighting for those values that I grew up with, that I
thought America represented, and that I thought that my husband and I at least
tried to further and stand for.
So it was not an easy decision, but after I had been through the gauntlet and
been accused of everything you can imagine and really come out of it still
standing, I thought, you know, if I walk away, if I say, `You know, I don't
want to be involved in politics,' then I'm really actually conceding a victory
to those whom I oppose so strongly.
GROSS: And...
Sen. CLINTON: And I guess finally, I would say that, you know, one thing that
always bothered me during the time in the White House and still to this day is
that it really does matter what the political decisions are in terms of how the
rules of the game are set and whether everybody in this country feels that he

 or she has a fair shot and a chance to, you know, live out that American Dream,
and I see the odds increasingly stacked against the average American. You know,
we hear about huge tax cuts, we hear about environmental regulations rolled
back, we heard about all of the issues that families and people talk to me
about, but what is not covered as well, what is not understood is that there's
a very concerted effort with a right-wing agenda to turn the clock back on
America, and the administration in Washington today is one of the most radical
and reactionary, albeit with, you know, a lot of nice rhetoric that we've ever
had in American history.
GROSS: Senator Clinton, you were a kind of symbol of evil for the right when
you were the first lady. But I think that you are being less demonized now that
you're actually in office as a senator from New York. Do you agree that you
were more demonized as first lady than as senator and, if so, why do you think
that that's true?
Sen. CLINTON: Well, I think that it really is rooted in--I'm sure some people
symbolically being bothered or worried about what I represent and apart from
who I am as a person, and I also concede that, you know, obviously, I'm not
everyone's cup of tea. You know, I'm very outspoken. I work for what I believe
in. I stand up to people in ways that I think helps to make a point.
GROSS: But you're trying to do that as a senator, not just as a first lady.
Sen. CLINTON: Well...
GROSS: What's the difference in how you're perceived?
Sen. CLINTON: Well, but I think--you know, the first lady role is such a unique
symbolic role, and it stands for so many things that the woman herself has, you
know, only passing reference to. It is a generational symbol, a historic
symbol, a concept of womanhood, of all of that rolled up into one person, which
is why it's always been a rather challenging role for me and my predecessors,
and we've each tried to do the best we can in our own ways. But now I've got a
real job. It's a job that comes with responsibilities and obligations to the
people I represent. I get up every day and try to figure out how I'm going to
improve life for New Yorkers. I work with my colleagues on both sides of the
aisle, because there are coalitions that I can help to form around issues that
I think matter to New York and America. So it's me acting on my own, less
symbolically than substantively. People can agree or disagree with the votes I
cast or the speeches I make on the Senate floor, but I'm not carrying this
enormous weight of expectations that you never can meet and that certainly
become even more of a flash point when you have a president who is breaking
down barriers and trying to move the country in a progressive direction. You
know...
GROSS: Do you think it's also that your job as senator doesn't depend on your
marriage to Bill Clinton? It's not about the marriage. It's not about him. It's
about you.

 Sen. CLINTON: Oh, I think that's a big part of it. You know, first ladies are
kept at a distance, and they are part of this enormous apparatus around a
president. After all, the only reason I or anybody was in the White House
during Bill Clinton's administration is because he, in some way, selected us;
us to get married but everyone else invited to work in the White House. So the
president is the overwhelming figure of importance. There isn't any staff
person or first lady or anyone else who can claim anything but derivative
authority from the president.
Well, senators get to speak for themselves and their constituents, and that was
one of the transitions that I had to make from a political helpmate, a first
lady, to a senator speaking on my own, speaking on behalf of my constituents.
But the final point about that, Terry, which I know it's difficult to really
articulate, at least for me because it's kind of in the realm of history and
symbolism and myth almost, is that when you're in one of these roles that are
really, as I say in the book, a kind of Rorschach test for other people's
marriages, for their aspirations, for their views on politics, for their
economic hopes and dreams--I mean, it's all rolled up into quite a complex
jumble, and there is no way, at least from my perspective, to totally unpack it.

I think we can't separate out that what Bill and I stood for politically was at
the root of the extreme partisanship and opposition. You know, they could have
just said, `Look, you know, she's a baby boomer generation first lady, we don't
like her,' but that wasn't the nature of the attacks. It was, `Look what
they're trying to do to health care. Look, they're trying to take your guns
away. Look what they're trying to do to the environment. Look at this. Look at
that.' And so the personal became the political, and it's very hard when I even
to this day see fund-raising letters sent out about `Stop me, stop me,' you
know, it's not just me as a person, it's the political point of view, it's the
values, it's the vision of America I have that they consider so threatening.
GROSS: Now your opponents on the right were very skilled at attacking your
husband's presidency, attacking your health-care campaign, attacking your
marriage and your private life. The Democrats now are having a very hard time
in forcefully opposing President Bush and his policies, particularly the tax
cut, this unprecedentedly large tax cut at a time of war with Iraq, facing, you
know, the expenses of war, facing the expenses of the occupation. Democrats who
are critical of how the Democrats are handling President Bush now say that the
Democrats aren't being forceful enough in their opposition. I mean, critics are
saying the Democrats are just afraid to really stand up. They want to be
perceived as centrist in the hope that that will help them win the next round
of elections. What do you say to those critics who think that the Democrats
just aren't doing a good enough job right now?
Sen. CLINTON: Well, I understand a lot of the frustration and I would say
several things, as I do to friends and constituents who raise this issue with
me. There's a very big bully pulpit in the White House. I know that probably as
well as anyone because I was there for eight years watching it in action. So we
close ranks. We support our president. Elections are times to, you know, really

 decide whether we want someone to continue or not. And certainly in the
atmosphere in which we find ourselves after September 11th, that is even more
true, and I understand that and accept it.
Secondly, I think there is a fundamental difference which I came to perceive
during the eight years in the White House, which I do talk about in the book,
and that is that, you know, Democrats really traditionally are more into the
business of governing for the betterment of people that they believe we
represent, so that it really matters to us, you know, what the details are when
you argue about the Medicare prescription drug benefit or when you worry about
whether the clock's going to be rolled back on environmental regulations. And I
have really come to see how the Republicans are so much more adept at and
understanding of power, and, therefore, their take on most political conflict
is `What do we have to do to win?' Now you can say from a perspective at some
distance, `Well, gee, you know, that's a gross generalization'--no pun on your
name, Terry, but, you know, that's a very broad, sweeping statement. And, of
course, it is, and it's not true in every case. But in general, I think there
is some real truth to it.
And, therefore, it is harder often for Democrats to explain where they stand.
Are you for or against a tax cut? Well, you know, we're against unreasonable,
unaffordable, irresponsible tax cuts, but we would like tax cuts that help the
middle class, that target investment that create jobs, etc.; whereas, you know,
that message takes a lot longer to say than, `We're for tax cuts,' end of
sentence. `Whatever they are, as big as they are, we're for them.'
There's another element to this, though, and I think that I, again, have
firsthand experience with it. The Republican Party, the conservative wing of
the Republican Party has literally been on a mission for probably 40 years to
turn the clock back on things that they disapprove of, whether it was, you
know, going back to the Great Depression and the creation of Social Security,
or in the '40s, the expansion of unions and worker rights, or in the '50s and
'60s, you know, the government intervening in civic rights--you just pick a
subject where there's been sweeping change. I believe on balance for the better
for America, there has been a hard core of right-wing conservative Republicans
that have built their influence day after day, and I give them credit for this.
I mean, I think it is a tremendous accomplishment that they have taken what
used to be in the extremes in our political philosophy and moved it into
acceptable territory. And they, of course, were disappointed, which now has
been written about widely when Barry Goldwater was so badly beaten, but it
didn't stop them. They came together. They endowed professorships. They started
think tanks. They began to really work to make their world view the American
mainstream world view.
So when Bill Clinton was elected, that was an abrupt interruption in their
entitlement to power. For the last 24 years, there had only been one Democratic
president term, and that was Jimmy Carter for four years. And from talking with
people who are quite proud of their accomplishments in changing the political
landscape in America, they viewed my husband as a tremendous threat, not just
because he won the presidency, but that he did actually speak for the majority
of Americans who wanted fiscal responsibility combined with safety nets and
combined with investments and combined with opportunities for people to be more

 responsible for themselves, and also for our country, to have a different face
in the world, more leading from our views and our leadership qualities as
opposed to just our military strength, which is obviously unmatched.
GROSS: My guest is Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton. She's written a new memoir
called "Living History." We'll be back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC
GROSS: My guest is Senator Hillary Clinton. She has a new memoir, as I'm sure
you know, called "Living History."
Where do you see the Bush administration, and President Bush in particular, in
terms of what you described during your husband's presidency as the vast
right-wing conspiracy? Do you see anyone in the Bush administration, including
the president himself, as fitting into that group or as furthering that style
of politics?
Sen. CLINTON: Absolutely. And, of course, in the book, I say that the word
`conspiracy' was probably not a very accurate description because there's
nothing secret any longer about this. You know, they're not meeting, you know,
behind closed doors. You know, they do things in secret, like the so-called
Arkansas Project and the like, but by and large, this is a very open agenda
that is well-financed and well-organized. And I think this administration, with
the people who are in it, whose views on both foreign policy issues and
domestic issues are so extreme and radical, are very much the ultimate victory,
in some respects, for those who have been speaking out against school
desegregation and public education and a woman's right to choose and protecting
the environment against the ravages of unchecked development and pollution, and
you go down the line, and I think that the great untold story of this
administration, which the media is certainly not paying attention to, is how
what used to be considered so radical has been put into a new suit of clothes
with a very nice smile and nice words, like compassion. But I don't think that
this administration in reality is either compassionate or conservative. I think
it is hard-edged, radical, right wing, with a very specific view of where they
want to take America.
GROSS: Do you ever look at some of the people who are or have been your
political opponents and who criticized you or your husband for personal
reasons, for your way of life, for your stand on women's issues, for his
affairs or whatever, and look at them and think, `You're a hypocrite; I know
something about your personal life that isn't public'? Do you ever think
thoughts like that and would you ever want to see somebody's personal life
exposed if you thought they were being a hypocrite?
Sen. CLINTON: Well, no, I really don't. I think we should draw a line there,
but in the book, I write about a few of these people. And, you know, I say that
I certainly can sympathize with their outrage at having their public problems
aired in the light of day, but it was stunning to me the double standard they

 were operating under. But, you see, from their perspective, they are on the
side of all that is right and good and important and significant, and that's a
political judgment they make, that, you know, the ends do justify the means if
you are taking away a woman's right to choose. The ends are OK if the ultimate
objective is to eventually, over time, dismantle the Medicaid program because
you're going to block grant it and cut the resources that are going to
guarantee health care for children and people in nursing homes, and those kinds
of issues are really their primary focus.
So they excuse an enormous amount of personal issues on their side of the
ledger, which they do on a daily basis; I'm very well aware of that, because
they're all part of this overall mission to take back America. You know,
there's this group called the Federalist Society, which has been around for a
while and which vets every single judicial nominee for the Bush administration.
If you're not OK'd by the Federalist Society with their very conservative,
non-mainstream judicial philosophy, you don't get nominated by this White
House. And so the result is we have people being nominated who are incredible
in the values and the attitudes that they bring to the bench. But this
Federalist Society has for years now talked about bringing the Constitution
back from exile.
Now when did the Constitution, in their view, go into exile? It went into exile
when the Supreme Court, under Earl Warren, rendered the decision in Brown v.
Board of Education. Now I happen to think that was one of the most significant
points in American history, not just judicial history, but every bit of our
history, because it moved us one step closer toward tearing down the walls of
segregation and trying to create a truly integrated society, as difficult as
that is. But these are people who really do want to turn the clock back. I used
to think that they were interested only in turning the clock back on the
Clinton administration, but honest to goodness, they're on their way to trying
to undo Franklin Roosevelt and I think they're going to, you know, be closing
in on Teddy Roosevelt pretty soon.
GROSS: Senator Hillary Clinton. Her new memoir is called "Living History."
She'll be back on the second half of the show. I'm Terry Gross, and this is
FRESH AIR.
SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC
CREDITS
GROSS: Coming up, we continue our conversation with Senator Hillary Clinton,
and we listen back to an interview with David Brinkley. The former NBC News
anchor died last night at the age of 82.
SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Senator Hillary Clinton.

 Her new memoir, "Living History," was published this week. In the book she
reveals some of her reactions to learning that her husband had lied to her and
the American public about his relationship with Monica Lewinsky.
Senator, I know that you think that your husband's affair with Monica Lewinsky
was very personally damaging to your marriage and not a good thing to do, but
you didn't think it was an impeachable offense. Do you think that presidents
should be judged at all on that aspect of their private lives?
Sen. CLINTON: Well, Terry, you know, I had this rather unique experience of
working on the impeachment staff in 1974 when Richard Nixon was impeached. I
was just fresh out of law school, a young lawyer. I worked with Republican and
Democratic lawyers, members of the committee, who were so careful and literally
non-partisan. It wasn't just bipartisan. They knew that this was an awesome
undertaking. And one of my tasks was to research the legal and historical
precedent behind the phrase `high crimes and misdemeanors,' which appears in
the Constitution when it talks about impeachment. And I have no doubt that it
was not personal matters that our Founders and those who were making the
decisions about our Constitution had in mind. They were focused on those kinds
of actions and behaviors that would affect the public performance. In fact, you
know, there was a big debate.
GROSS: But should it be judged at all by individuals? How do you think it
should fit...
Sen. CLINTON: Oh, of course. Anything is going to affect how individuals feel
about another individual, whether that person's, you know, in the White House
or in any other walk of life. But when you see the political process being
perverted and the Constitution subverted for partisan purposes in what was an
unprecedented attempt to grab power away from a lawfully elected president,
using his personal failings, which he's admitted, which were horrible for my
family and which just caused me incredible pain and distress, but to use that
for a partisan political purpose was very dangerous to our system of government
and to our Constitution.
Now, luckily, the American people got it right, as they often do. They saw
through it, they understood what this was about, and in huge numbers stood
behind the president. And despite the fact that the House Republicans had the
votes to go ahead and impeach him, you know, that didn't in any way affect the
senators, who didn't even give a majority vote to any of these charges.
GROSS: Because...
Sen. CLINTON: So, thankfully, it worked out, but look what it put the country
through. I find that just, even now reflecting back, hard to understand.
GROSS: Because the president risked so much personally and politically by
having the affair with Monica Lewinsky and because there's been speculation

 about other affairs, there's been a lot of people who have thought that he must
have some kind of sexual addiction or compulsion. Do you think that he does?
Sen. CLINTON: Oh, Terry, I think I've gone as far as I would go in my book,
which is a whole lot farther than I ever thought I would in terms of talking
about, you know, very private, personal matters. And I have to say that many
people in interviews over the last several days have said, `Well, you're
supposed to be such a private person. Why did you even write about this?' And,
of course, I wished it hadn't been made public. I wished our situation could
have stayed within our family, in the counseling that we did have, but it
wasn't. It was forced into the public by people who could have cared less about
me or my daughter or my mother or Bill's family or anything else. It was for a
malicious purpose. And I am just going to let my book speak for itself.
GROSS: What crossed your mind when you heard from the new Robert Dallek
biography of JFK that JFK actually had an affair with an intern?
Sen. CLINTON: You know, I guess maybe I read enough history growing up and have
been involved in politics for long enough to know that we don't have any saints
in public office; we don't have any perfect human beings. The performance of a
president and his leadership on behalf of our country is really for Americans
themselves to judge and for history to judge.
I think my husband will be judged very favorably by history, because I think he
did a good job for our country. I think when he left office we were well
prepared for the future. And as to other presidents, I think the same standard
should apply.
There are, you know, many people who--it's human nature; I understand
that--want to know what happened behind closed doors--who did what to whom. I
don't think there's any direct correlation between a president's private
behavior and his public leadership. So I think we'll just leave that for the
historians to sort out.
GROSS: I know you're on a very tight schedule, so I'll just ask you one more
question. You've worked with Tom DeLay and Lindsey Graham on legislation, and,
I mean, these are people who really opposed your husband during the impeachment
era. Is working with them an exercise for you in swallowing poison or an
exercise in just like finding the common ground?
Sen. CLINTON: It's an exercise in doing my job. It's an exercise in building
coalitions and consensus around issues that I think are important and that
matter to the people I represent. And I also really do believe that there is
more than ample ground on which we can disagree and be absolutely adamant in
what we think is right for the country politically, but I don't think that we
want to continue the politics of personal destruction.
I'm, frankly, more concerned right now with what I see as the politics of

 economic destruction being propagated by the administration and the Republican
Party. I'm going to take them on on that issue. I don't have any need to try to
undermine them personally, try to demonize them. I'm going to take Tom DeLay on
over the child-care tax credit, which he is adamantly opposed, which we passed
to remedy a grave injustice in the Senate last week. And I'll take any of my
other colleagues on when it comes to important issues.
But when we can find common ground--you know, maybe I can try to demonstrate
that that's the more appropriate way for us to engage in our political
differences, by working together whenever we can and by standing strongly but
not personally, destructively against one another when we have serious
differences.
GROSS: Senator Clinton, thank you so much for talking with us.
Sen. CLINTON: Terry, I enjoyed it. I hope we'll get a chance to talk again
sometime.
GROSS: Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton. Her new memoir is called "Living History."
Coming up, we listen back to an interview with former TV news anchor David
Brinkley. He died last night at the age of 82.
This is FRESH AIR.
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