BOB EDWARDS, HOST: Of the 533 current members of Congress 282 are Republicans
and 250 are Democrats. A quick bit of math reveals that leaves one seat for
Vermont's Congressman Bernie Sanders, the body's Independent. He's a socialist
in his fourth term.
House Minority Leader Richard Gephardt named Sanders the ranking minority
member on a Government Reform and Oversight Subcommittee. Sanders says taking
the top Democratic spot on a subcommittee does not undercut his Independent
status; it enhances it.
U.S. REPRESENTATIVE BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): For the first time in, probably,
American history somebody who's outside of the two-party system is going to
have a little bit more clout by being a ranking member of one of the important
subcommittees in the Government Reform Committee.
EDWARDS: Why did you want that role which, more closely than ever, allies you
with the Democratic Party?
SANDERS: Well, that's the committee that I was on, and that's the seniority
situation that I was eligible for.
EDWARDS: But, doesn't this ally you...
SANDERS: Well, I think if you look at my record in the United States Congress,
you will find that, as the only Independent, I have led the effort against both
the Democratic Party and the Republican Party and that my effort is to speak up
for working people and low-income people and elderly people who are not getting
a fair shake from government. So, I would suggest that, if anyone checks my
record, you'll find that it is probably as strong and as progressive as any
member of the United States Congress.
EDWARDS: So, if the Republicans had offered you a subcommittee chairmanship you
would have gladly accepted?
SANDERS: No, of course, I would not have.
The Republican agenda, by and large, is to represent the wealthiest people and
the most powerful people in this country. While I have many disagreements with
the Democrats, obviously, given the choice between the two, the Democratic
situation and positions are often preferable.
EDWARDS: In fact, you've voted with the Democratic majority 95 percent of the
time. What's the difference between a socialist and a liberal Democrat?
SANDERS: Well, I'm glad that you asked me that. Number one, it's the issues

 that I raise and the issues that I fight for. Number one, one of the problems
that we're having in this country today is that in many ways we are ceasing to
be a democracy. Now, this is an issue that Democrats don't talk about;
Republicans don't talk about and the corporately-own media doesn't talk about.
But one of the real problems that we have is that tens of millions of people
are giving up on the political process, because they perceive that the United
States Congress and the government ends up representing the wealthy and the
powerful and not the needs of ordinary people. And we don't talk about this.
Two years ago when Gingrich and his friends took over 38 percent of the people
voted; in a very important presidential election 49 percent of the people
voted. My guess is that in two years, in the next congressional election,
you'll have barely more than one-third of the people voting.
Now, that's a very serious problem. We have seen in the last 20, 25 years a
significant decline in the standard of living of working people, the collapse
of the middle class. Who's talking for those people?
Certainly not the Republican party, which very overtly represents the wealthy
and the powerful and, unfortunately, most members of the Democratic party are
not standing...
EDWARDS: So...
SANDERS: ... for working people either.
EDWARDS: So, why not become a Democrat, change the party from within as you
move up to more power within that party.
SANDERS: Well, I prefer and believe very strongly that, at this moment in
history, the Congress needs at least one Independent who stands up and calls it
the way it is.
EDWARDS: The congressional leadership is much more conservative now, even
within the Republican Party, since you first entered Congress. Has that changed
how other members relate to you?
SANDERS: Well, what is going on -- it's not congressional leadership. You have
seen in the United States Congress a strong drift to the right in both
political parties.
You have now a right-wing of the Republican Party which clearly controls that
party, which is far further than -- to the right, than was the case 15 or 20
years ago; and you have a Democratic leadership now which, in some respects,

 might be considered to be liberal Republican.
President Clinton, for example, his politics in many ways, excluding Watergate
and so forth, is not terribly different than was Richard Nixon's. So, you're
seeing both parties moving to the right, which means to say that the needs of
working people, low-income people, the elderly, the kids, are just not being
dealt with. And that is an opening that I think many of us have got to see.
EDWARDS: So, there's very little that Congress has achieved of late that you
could be proud of?
SANDERS: Well, I would say that some of us in the progressive caucus played a
role in stopping the worst elements of what Gingrich wanted to do. And that's
something to be proud of. Last year, we ended up putting more money into
education. And that's something that we are very proud of.
But, I think it's fair to say -- and most Americans, I'm sure, do not disagree
-- that the Congress represents the wealthy and the powerful. The middle class
shrinks. We have the highest rate of childhood poverty in the industrialized
world. And the rich get richer. We're not going to change that system until
tens and tens of millions of working people get involved in the political
process and they fight.
Free national health care system, which guarantees health care to all people -they fight for the life for every kid in this country to be able to get a
decent college education. We fight for a fair tax system, which asks the
question why the wealthiest are paying lower taxes, their tax rates have gone
down, while the middle class pays more, because social security taxes have gone
up.
This is a great country. There are many things that we can do. The basic
problem is both your economic and political system are dominated by big money
interest.
EDWARDS: And socialism hasn't exactly been gaining ground in recent years. How
does you ideas...
SANDERS: Well, Democrat Socialism, in fact, is not communism. And I hope you
understand that.
I was a very strong opponent of authoritarian communism, of course. In terms of
Democratic Socialism, the Labour Party in England is now 20 to 30 points ahead
of the conservatives; will probably become the next government of -- of England.
You have Labour party in Sweden in power; you have labour -- New Democratic
Party in power in provinces in Canada. So, you know, things go up and down, but

 Democratic Socialism is alive and thriving.
EDWARDS: Yeah, but how do you square your idea of socialism with that of
Congress and the American people since politicians seem to drift the way they
feel the -- the voters are going?
SANDERS: Well, I don't feel -- well, I was elected by 23 points in the last
election in the state of Vermont. So I suppose the voters are not unhappy with
-- with what I'm doing.
I think if you had more members of Congress -- it's not, it's not -- you know,
I think your question is not right. It's not where the voters are going. I
think, many politicians proceed where the money goes. To get elected, you have
to get money from wealthy people and large corporations and you do what they
want. That means you fight for tax breaks for the rich and you cut Medicare and
Medicaid and Social Security and education.
I think the views that I reflect and represent not only reflect the interest of
the vast majority of the people in Vermont, but the vast majority of the people
nationwide. Now, why those views are not better represented in Congress has to
do with the corporate media which, to a large degree, does not allow those view
out.
Number two, it has to do with a two-party system, which is heavily controlled
by big money interest.
EDWARDS: Congressman Bernie Sanders, is a socialist from Vermont.
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