ÿþExhibit
A

05 JUL 2013 11:38 am
K. PERMSAP

1
COURT OF COMMON PLEAS
PHILADELPHIA COUNTY
AUGUST TERM, 2011
NO. 2034

CARMELO SANTIAGO,

)
)
Plaintiff,)
)
- vs )
)
PO RICHARD NICOLETTI,
)
)
Defendant.)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

DEPOSITION UPON
ORAL EXAMINATION
OF
CARMELO SANTIAGO

TRANSCRIPT OF DEPOSITION, taken by and
before JULIE A. DAMIANI, Professional Reporter and
Notary Public, at the offices of CITY OF
PHILADELPHIA LAW DEPARTMENT, 1515 Arch Street, 14th
Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on Friday,
December 14, 2012, commencing at 10:14 a.m.

ERSA COURT REPORTERS
30 South 17th Street
United Plaza - Suite 1520
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103
(215)564-1233

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

 CARMELO SANTIAGO
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A P P E A R A N C E S:

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LAW OFFICES OF POPPER & YATVIN
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BY: HOWARD D. POPPER, ESQUIRE
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BY: RICHARD A. SHORE, ESQUIRE
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230 South Broad Street, Suite 503
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102
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Counsel for the Plaintiff
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CITY OF PHILADELPHIA LAW DEPARTMENT
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BY: AMANDA SHOFFEL, ESQUIRE
10
1515 Arch Street, 14th Floor
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102
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Counsel for the Defendant
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(By agreement of counsel, the
signing, sealing, filing, and
certification of the transcript have been
waived; and all objections, except as to
the form of the question, have been
reserved until the time of trial.)
CARMELO SANTIAGO, after having
been duly sworn was examined and testified
as follows:
BY MS. SHOFFEL:
Q
Good afternoon, sir. My name is Amanda
Shoffel. I'm an attorney for the City of
Philadelphia. I represent Police Officer Richard
Nicoletti in this case.
Have you ever had your deposition taken
before?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. I'm going to lay some ground rules
that will make it easier for the court reporter to
take down everything that we're saying. Okay?
A
Okay.
Q
The first rule is to verbalize all your

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INDEX

1
2
WITNESS
PAGE
3
CARMELO SANTIAGO
4
5
By: Ms. Shoffel
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6
By: Mr. Popper
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7
By: Ms. Shoffel
91
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- - 9
10
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EXHIBITS
12
PAGE PAGE
13
NUMBER
DESCRIPTION MARKED ATTACHED
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15
1
Photos
54
96
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2
Complaint
83
97
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- - 18
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responses. Even though I will understand shakes of
the head, yes or no, she can't take them down. Do
you understand that?
A
Sure.
Q
The second guideline I'm going to ask you
to follow is to wait until I fully ask you a
question before you start to answer even if you
anticipate what I'm going to ask you. And I'll try
to wait until you're done fully responding before I
ask my next question just so she can take down
everything that we're saying. Okay?
A
Okay.
Q
And the final instruction is if you answer
a question, I'm going to assume you understood the
question. If you don't understand a question that I
ask, please let me know, and I will rephrase it in a
way that makes more sense.
A
Okay.
Q
If I ask you a question and you don't know
the answer and you're going to give me an estimate
like time, distance, things like that, just make
sure you let me know you're giving an estimate.
Okay?
A
Yes.

2 (Pages 2 to 5)
ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

 CARMELO SANTIAGO
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Q
Do you have any questions for me before we
start?
A
No.
MR. POPPER: Just one more
thing, you've been answering a couple with
uh-huh. Uh-huh is not an answer. It has
to be yes or no. Uh-huh doesn't translate
into anything.
BY MS. SHOFFEL:
Q
Understood?
A
Yes.
Q
Can you please state your full name and
your date of birth for the record, please?
A
Carmelo Jose Santiago.
Q
Date of birth?
A
1/26/62.
Q
Okay. I'm going to start off by asking
you some background questions about yourself and
your family, and then we're going to move into the
incident. Okay?
A
Okay.
Q
Where were you born?
A
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
Q
And have you lived in Philadelphia your

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born August 8, 1957. My brother, Amador, he's
deceased. Amador, Jr., he's deceased. His
birthday -- I'm not sure of his birthday.
Q
That's fine. And when did he pass away?
A
1989.
Q
How did he pass away?
A
He committed suicide.
Q
Did he have a history of mental illness?
A
Not that I know of.
Q
Do you know if he was ever diagnosed with
any mental illness before his suicide?
A
Yes.
Q
You have two other brothers?
A
Yes. Armando Santiago. He just recently
passed away, too. He had liver cancer. His
birthday is December 22, 1958, I believe.
Q
When did he pass away?
A
About five months ago.
Q
And your last brother?
A
Arazmo Eddy Santiago. His birthday,
October 16, 1967.
Q
What's the highest grade of education that
you completed?
A
I graduated 12th grade.

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whole life?
A
My whole life, yes.
Q
What's your current address?
A
1734 North 3rd Street.
Q
And have you lived there your entire life?
A
Yes.
Q
Do you have any siblings?
A
What do you mean?
Q
Any brothers or sisters?
A
Yes. I have four other brothers and two
sisters.
Q
Can you please give me their names and
dates of birth?
A
My dad, Amador Santiago. His birthday is
September 16th, I believe it is.
Q
Brothers and sisters?
A
Carmen. That's my older sister, Carmen.
Q
What's her last name?
A
Santiago.
Q
Date of birth?
A
February 10, 1960. And my younger sister,
Miriam, M-I-R-I-A-M, Santiago. October 26, 1965.
Q
And your brothers?
A
My brother, David Hiram Santiago. He was

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Q
You received a diploma?
A
Yes, I did.
Q
Where was that from?
A
Thomas A. Edison High School.
Q
Do you have any education past high
school?
A
No, just in the service. I went into the
service.
Q
What year did you go into the service?
A
'84.
Q
What branch of service were you in?
A
Army National Guard.
Q
Army National Guard?
A
Yes.
Q
How long did you serve in the National
Guard?
A
Thirteen years.
Q
I should probably know the difference but
to be honest with you, I don't. When you're in the
National Guard are you in a reserve and you're
called to active duty? How does that work?
A
Yes, we're called for active duty. That's
the one weekend out of the month we had to report.
Q
Understood. And other than the one

3 (Pages 6 to 9)
ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

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weekend a month that you had to report, were you
called to active duty any other times?
A
No, no. We just was called for some sort
of -- they had a lot of rain. They had floods out.
Q
Okay. I understand. Were you
compensated?
A
Yes.
Q
How much were you compensated for that?
A
I'm not sure about that. It was quite a
while ago.
Q
Okay. If you remember, is it kind of like
a salary per year or is it a stipend that you
receive?
A
Payment was monthly.
Q
Monthly payment?
A
Yeah. It may be about -- I think it was
about 220 or something like that per month.
Q
And did that stay the same from the time
you joined in 1985 for the entire 13 years that you
were in?
A
No, that changed because I received ranks.
I was receiving ranks. I went from E-1 to E-4.
Q
Do you know what your monthly rate was at
the time you left?

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Q
Did you carry a firearm as part of your
work in security?
A
No, never.
Q
Okay. When you started working the
security jobs, where was the first place that you
worked?
A
I would say a clothing store, you know,
like a department store.
Q
Okay. How long did you work there for?
A
About eight months or so.
Q
Were you terminated or did you leave
voluntarily?
A
I left voluntarily.
Q
Why did you leave?
A
I was just going to another job.
Q
What was the other job?
A
Security. They were all security.
Q
What was the next security job that you
worked?
A
They were all various jobs. I did a lot
of department stores, like guarding a building
outside and stuff like that. I worked -- my last
job was a NovaCare complex where the Eagles
practice.

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A
I'd say about around June.
Q
And how much were you making per month?
A
Two something. I'm not exactly sure.
Q
Still in the 200 range?
A
Yeah.
Q
Okay. Other than your time in the
service, after you graduated high school did you
have any other specialized job training,
certification, take any sort of classes?
A
Yes, I did a lot of security.
Q
Okay. Did you have to take any courses or
classes to work that job?
A
No, just orientation and stuff like that.
That's all.
Q
Okay. When did you start working
security?
A
I started probably when I was about 18,
I'd say, maybe, 19. Something like that.
Q
And I apologize, what year did you
graduate high school?
A
1981.
Q
So around the same time you started
working the security jobs?
A
Yeah.

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Q
So it sounds like from what you're saying
from about 1981 until present you were working
security jobs?
A
It might have been more than -- it wasn't
'81. It had to be '86 or so.
Q
So from 1986?
A
Yes.
Q
Are you still working in those type of
jobs?
A
Yes.
Q
So from 1986 to present you've been
working in different types of security jobs?
A
Yes. Also, I did factory work when I was
younger.
Q
Tell me a little about that.
A
Like metal places.
Q
What years did you do factory work?
A
'88 maybe, something like that.
Q
For how long?
A
I'd say about six months.
Q
How much were you making doing that?
A
I was making about six bucks an hour.
Q
And how much do you make working security
jobs?

4 (Pages 10 to 13)
ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

 CARMELO SANTIAGO
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A
The most I made was $10.15.
Q
$10.15?
A
An hour, yes.
Q
Okay. And about how many hours a week do
you work?
A
Forty.
Q
Have you ever been terminated from a job?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. When was that?
A
Dress Barn, a women's clothing store.
Q
What year was that?
A
Around '99.
Q
And why were you terminated?
A
I got in an argument with the manager of
the store and I walked out.
Q
Have you ever been terminated from any
other jobs?
A
No.
Q
Have you ever been married?
A
Never.
Q
Is Carmelo your only son?
A
Yes.
Q
What type of relationship did you have
with his mother?

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Q
Was that at her mother's house?
A
Her mother's.
Q
Okay. And at the end of that year did you
move out?
A
Yes.
Q
And why did you move out?
A
We broke up so I left.
Q
Okay. Have you ever been arrested?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. When was that? If it was a
juvenile offense, I don't need to know about that.
A
It was like when I was younger.
Q
Have you ever been arrested as an adult?
A
Well, the only time as an adult I spent
one night in the detention center on State Road.
Q
Just so we're on the same page, as an
adult I mean after you were 18 years old. You
understand that, right?
A
Yeah, I do.
Q
Okay. When was that arrest?
A
Whew. That was around '81.
Q
What was that for?
A
Disorderly conduct. I had three bench
warrants.

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A
With his mother?
Q
Um-hmm.
A
A good relationship.
Q
When did you first meet her?
A
1980. It might have been '79, '80.
Q
How did you meet her?
A
A friend of mine that I used to hang out
with, he told me that she was kind of interested in
me. So from then on I took her out and we got
together.
Q
Okay. Did you ever live together?
A
I lived with her at 1210 North Hancock.
That's her mother's house.
Q
When was Carmelo born?
A
My son was born January 6, 1982.
Q
Does she have any other children?
A
She has four, two boys and two girls.
Q
I'm sorry if you answered this already,
but did you ever live with her?
A
Yes.
Q
When did you live with her?
A
Maybe around '80, '81.
Q
How long did you live with her for?
A
About a year.

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Q
Ever been arrested any other time?
A
Yeah, I have.
Q
When was that?
A
I'd say later on in the '80s, late '80s.
Something like that.
Q
What was that for?
A
Marijuana.
Q
Anything else?
A
Just disorderly. I had a lot of
disorderly -- hanging in corners and stuff like
that.
Q
Okay. Do you have any idea of the time
frame or years that you had those arrests?
A
I really don't. I would say late '80s.
Q
Have you had any arrests in the last ten
years?
A
No.
Q
Okay. Are you currently on any
medications?
A
Yes.
Q
What are you on?
A
Well, I have a list here. These are all
my medications if you want to look at this.
Q
Sure.

5 (Pages 14 to 17)
ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

 CARMELO SANTIAGO

 

 



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you uuneu mug mu 0kmwmqmulpmur(Pages 18 to 21)

ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

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Conn 01 No

 

1 10801034

13060419

CARMELO SANTIAGO

7 (Pages 22 to 25)

ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES 
(ms 



 

CARMELO SANTIAGO

 

   

 

 

 

 

26 2 
1 1 Wlun ohm All: do"
2 How long were you our ofwurk [or 2007 2 A She's a leachcr'>> arue, She wotks wi|h
3 or leading up ro 2007'1 3 man no,
4 A One year 4 At Ihe rirne onho inudenl, you lwed
Was Lhal rne longeu gap .n your 5 wuh your parent>> and Mu'iam"
a emplaymenl" A Yer.
1 A ND 7 Anyone elm"
a Whar was rhe longesx gap In your a A Nu. My sun hyeu uh ar the Inns.
5 emplaymenl" Okay, Iwanr to 143k you more background
10 A Unemploymean 1a nboul your >un, Okay"
11 Yes 11 A Okay,
12 A Welly pmsem Three years, In 12 Wham the highest level oreduoanon mm
1 3 on rhree yean 1 3 he 
14 When was Lh: [am one you worked" 14 A Iheheye gmde. He went up I0
13 A 2009 15 grade,
16 And why am you uop womng 20w Okay, Why he uop grung to whuul 
11 A Welly aeruauy 1 gm renroyeo rron. me 17 grade"
13 one rron. me Noanme cumplex. ano rney neyer 1a A he Jun dropped our,
19 found work [or me xwa, 0mg ro Lh: omoe. you 19 he yuu"
20 know Two weeks well! by and I find okay I have I0 20 A Nu, AI Ih: lune he Wm [wing his
21 du so I wenr and colleen, 21 molher,
22 Is rnere any physical mason rnar you're 22 When did he "an ln'mg wuh you"
2 3 unable ro work right now '1 2 3 A ahour when |he madam happened he
24 A OLhcr man man rhe 24 had juu "med [wing wibefore Lhen he was 1:10.30 he came our and Hum
2 him rne beta-ms: he was hayrng 
3 3 one of before, 1 him
4 4 ro eonre and hue wuh us because we wasn't gumg ro
5 5 leave our In Lh: Mme!
What's your pnmary souroe ufmcume nglu Du you recall whar munm year he
7 Ham" 7 earue ro [we wuh you"
a A 1haye no Incume. A ahour January
9 Do you recerye 531 or hke [ha-4U 9 MR 17017?th A1 Ilm polnlJ
1a A [gel welfare our 1 Jusr ger fond sranrps. 10 Jim wanr ro rnrenecr Qne ofme
11 who du you curremly hye 11 Ilmrucuom aho rhar an esumnlc 11k:
12 A My parenre Carmen and Amador 12 rhar ls hne. our no Okay" 1r
1: Anyone else) 13 you can reasonath cannula somerhurg. my
14 A My sister [was where wuh may Mrnarn. rhe 14 approxrmarely or esurnauug bur no
13 one. 15 guessing. Okay"
16 Anyone ehev 15 THE 
17 A now my [was wuh may our 17 BY MS SHOH-EL-
18 she wasn't rhere ar rhe unre happened 13 30 January uf 2011 he canre ro hye 
19 What's your name" 19 you"
2 A Margre. Margarel Perez, 20 A 
21 when do: on sum dnung her" 21 And was ruar rue fim ume .n bf:
22 A Aoour five nronuo ago. 22 rhar he had hyeo wuh you"
23 she cmpluyedAnd prevmm ro January of 2m 1. 1 know

 

 

8 (Pages 26 to 29)

ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
13060429



 

 

CARMELO SANTIAGO
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that you said that he was incarcerated for a little,
but while he was not incarcerated was he living with
his mother?
A
Yes.
Q
What type of involvement did you have in
his life when he was living with his mother?
A
I had a good -- I would see him on
weekends, maybe every other weekend. We spoke on
the phone a lot.
Q
Okay. So you saw him every other weekend?
A
Um-hmm.
MR. POPPER: Yes or no?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MS. SHOFFEL: Thank you.
BY MS. SHOFFEL:
Q
And how often did you speak to him on the
phone?
A
How often?
Q
Yes.
A
I'd say about every other day during the
week.
Q
I know you said he stopped going to school
in ninth grade?
A
Yes.

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incarcerated?
A
It was awhile back. He had to do three
months in boot camp. I really can't tell you what
year that was, but that was pretty much the first
time he got in trouble and stuff like that.
Q
Why was that?
A
Not in trouble but his school work was
bad, so they decided it would be a good idea to put
him in this boot camp so he can -- because his
grades and stuff was bad. So they told them this
would help him to get back on track, so.
Q
And do you remember what grade he was in
when that happened?
A
I believe that was about ninth grade.
Q
What were his grades like?
A
I don't know much about that.
Q
Do you know if he ever failed any
subjects?
A
Not that I know of, no.
Q
Do you know if he was ever suspended from
school?
A
Not that I know of, no.
Q
Do you know if he ever had any
disciplinary problems in school?

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Q
But do you know specifically what month or
what year he stopped going?
A
I'm not sure because at that time he
wasn't living with me. His mother would know that.
Q
But you said you talked to him a lot,
right?
A
Yeah. I spoke to him on the phone and
stuff like that.
Q
Did he ever tell you anything about that?
A
My son was kind of quiet. He didn't
really express a lot of things. He was really
quiet. I grew up the same way, too. I was quiet
and I kept a lot of stuff to myself. He was pretty
much like that.
Q
When you saw him on weekends, what types
of things would you guys do together?
A
We would just stay in the house and talk.
You know, maybe go out with his kids. He would get
his kids, and we would go to the mall and stuff like
that.
Q
When you said stay in the house, was that
your house?
A
Yeah.
Q
When was the first time he was

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A
Not that I know of, no.
Q
Do you know if he participated in any
extracurriculars at school?
A
Not that I know of.
Q
Who made the decision or -- let me
rephrase that.
Do you know who suggested that he go to
this boot camp?
A
It had to do with the family court. We
went to family court, so I guess the judge maybe.
Q
And why did you go to the family court?
A
He had a court -- that was a court date he
had there, so.
Q
What was that court date for?
A
That was basically for that reason for
that date. They wanted to get him back on track.
They told me this is what's going to happen, we're
going to send him to boot camp and stuff so he can
get back on track.
Q
Did he have -- it sounds like if the
courts were involved, did he have some kind of
arrest or problem?
A
He might have.
MR. POPPER: I'm going to object

9 (Pages 30 to 33)
ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

 CARMELO SANTIAGO
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to the form because it could be truancy.
MS. SHOFFEL: I understand.
That's why I'm asking.
BY MS. SHOFFEL:
Q
If you know. Do you know?
A
I believe it was because he had gotten
arrested maybe.
Q
Okay. Do you know what that was for?
A
I'm not sure.
Q
Did he complete those three months at boot
camp?
A
Yes.
Q
Do you know where that was?
A
No. I think that was close to Pittsburgh,
Pennsylvania. I think it was.
Q
Do you recall what year that was in?
A
I'd say about maybe '99 or 2000.
Q
When he returned from Pittsburgh, did he
go back to school?
A
No.
Q
Why not?
A
I don't know. I think that that's when he
just dropped out and he started -- he went to work.
He started working.

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because I have a picture in the newspaper of him
with his class for completing this home.
Q
Um-hmm. It sounds like a -- I'm going to
guess -- Habitat for Humanity. They go and build
homes for people and stuff like that.
A
Yeah.
Q
Do you know what year that he was involved
in that?
A
I'm not sure what year.
Q
Was that a volunteer thing or did he get
paid for that work?
A
I think it was a volunteer thing.
Q
When he returned from the boot camp, did
he go back to live with his mother?
A
Yes.
Q
When was the first time that he was
incarcerated and spent some time in prison?
A
I'm not sure of the year. I'm not sure
about that.
Q
Is that something his mother might know?
A
Yes.
Q
Do you know just generally anything about
any time he might have been arrested, anything about
his arrest history?

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Q
Where did he start working?
A
I'm not sure exactly where he started
working, but it was factory work. He had factory
works and stuff like that.
Q
Do you know anything about where he was
working or the type of work he was doing after that?
A
No, not really.
Q
Okay.
A
Like I said, he kept, you know, he didn't
tell me much about those things like that. He kept
to himself.
Q
That's fine. And if you don't know,
that's fine. Just tell me you don't know. Okay?
A
Okay.
Q
After he dropped out of school, do you
know if he ever obtained a GED?
A
Not that I know of, no.
Q
Do you know if he ever had any other kinds
of -- took any other classes or training or
certification?
A
He was one time with this thing called
Impact Youth something. He was pretty much working
and building houses, so he did that. I'm not too
sure how long he was there, but he completed it

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A
Well, assault, he had assault. Supposedly
that was with a gun. That was the last case he had
and that was dropped. He spent five months in jail
for that. That had to do with his girlfriend. The
girlfriend he was going out with at the time. She
was a very bad influence on him. She always got him
in trouble. She knew he had a record and stuff like
that, so she would call the cops because she knew
that they were going to arrest him for arguing with
a girl and stuff like that, so, yeah.
Q
I know you said that your son was living
with his mother. Was the girlfriend living in that
house, too?
A
No. His girlfriend?
Q
Yeah.
A
No.
Q
Okay. I understand at some point your son
had a drug problem?
A
Yes.
Q
Do you have any understanding of when that
started?
A
I have no idea.
Q
Did he ever talk to you about it?
A
No. He never spoke to me. I've never

10 (Pages 34 to 37)
ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

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seen him high or anything like that. I know he
drank and stuff like that, but he never came to me
high. When he came to see me, he was sober with his
kids and stuff. So I really don't know when this
started.
Q
Okay. Do you know what type of substances
he had a problem with?
A
Marijuana, drinking.
Q
How about any other substances besides
marijuana?
A
I don't know about him taking coke or
anything like that, no.
Q
Okay. Do you know if he ever received any
treatment for any problems he had with drugs or
alcohol?
A
Yes, he was.
Q
When was the first time he received
treatment?
A
I'm not sure of the year, but he was going
to this place on 7th and Girard, a building there.
It was for like a drug rehab or something like that.
Q
And do you know the first time he might
have gone there?
A
I'm not sure.

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Dunkin Donuts.
Q
How long did he work at Dunkin Donuts for?
A
He was only there a little after he got
out in January. He got out January 7th and a little
after that he got a job with Dunkin Donuts.
Q
How long was he working at Dunkin Donuts
for?
A
About two, three months.
Q
Do you know how much he was making there?
A
It was really low. I couldn't believe
what he told me. It was $5 an hour. He was kind of
depressed about that, you know.
Q
When you say he was depressed, is that
something you noticed or that he told you about?
A
He told me because -- well, actually the
Friday before all this happened on the Sunday that
weekend, I went to pick him up. He had to go get
his check there. He looked at it and he was
depressed, saying, oh, man and this and that telling
me, so I said don't worry. That's for now until you
find something better. You know, just stick with
that. But I could tell he was like, oh, it was
shitty pay. I'm sorry I said a bad word.
Q
That's fine. Do you know about any other

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Q
Do you know at all, any time, any year,
anything of when he might have gone there?
A
No.
Q
Do you know is that like an inpatient
program where he would stay there?
A
No. He would just go there and come out.
It was an outpatient thing.
Q
I know you said you don't know what year
he was going there, but do you know how often he
went there?
A
I'm not sure. I think every two weeks,
maybe.
Q
And how did you know that he was going
there? Was that something he told you?
A
He told me about that.
Q
Did he tell you anything else about his
treatment there?
A
No.
Q
Do you know how long he went there for?
A
I'm not sure.
Q
Do you know about any jobs he held after
he dropped out of school or even when he was in
school?
A
Just factory work. His last job was

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jobs he had besides the factory work and Dunkin
Donuts that you told me about?
A
No. That's pretty much the only thing I
know, the factory work that he did.
Q
Okay. I know you told me that he had some
treatment at 7th and Girard. Do you know of any
other times that he sought treatment for mental
health issues?
A
He went during the time when he was -before this happened, he went to another drug thing.
I think he wanted to go there which was on
Kensington Avenue because I dropped him off that
Friday, two days before everything happened.
Q
And I'll ask you some more questions about
that when we start to talk about the incident. But
other that and the treatment at 7th and Girard and
the treatment at Kensington Avenue right before the
incident that you just told me about, do you know if
he ever went to any other mental health provider?
A
Not that I know of.
Q
Do you know if he ever sought any kind of
help for depression or anxiety or things like that?
A
Not that I know of.
Q
Do you know if he was ever hospitalized

11 (Pages 38 to 41)
ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

 CARMELO SANTIAGO
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for any major illness?
A
He got stabbed a couple times in the back.
The girlfriend he was with -- her brother and
uncle -Q
Stabbed him?
A
Stabbed him, yeah. They jumped him.
Q
Do you know the year and the month that
happened in?
A
That was just in 2011.
Q
Do you know if he ever had any other
surgeries or illnesses or anything like that?
A
He got injured at the job, that one job.
Q
When was that?
A
I'm not sure of the year. I think it was
around 2010, '11, something like that.
Q
Do you know where he was working when that
happened?
A
I know it was a factory, but I don't
recall the location.
Q
Do you know anything about the type of
injury he had?
A
I'm not sure because it was a metal place
so something -- probably machines he was working
with hit his thumb or finger or something like that.

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presents.
A
Yeah, he's lucky.
Q
So turning 13 and 10?
A
Yes.
Q
Who do they live with?
A
Their mother.
Q
When was the last time you saw them?
A
It's been quite a little bit. I'm going
to be with them Saturday.
Q
Okay. Are they in school?
A
Yes.
Q
Now I want to talk to you a little bit
about the incident that happened at your house.
Okay?
A
Yes.
Q
You said that the Friday before this
happened you took your son to a treatment center in
Kensington?
A
Yes, I dropped him off.
Q
Why did you take him there?
A
That's where he wanted to go for treatment
he was telling me.
Q
What exactly did he tell you?
A
He said that this is a place I want to go.

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Q
Okay. Do you know of any medications he
was taking at any point?
A
No, I'm not sure. I know he got like some
sort of settlement thing because he went to court
with the company, so he received some sort of
settlement.
Q
Okay. It sounds like he might have sued
his employer for the injuries he received at work?
A
I believe so, yes.
Q
Do you know if he was on any prescription
drugs or been prescribed any medications?
A
Not that I know of.
Q
And that's at any point, not just right
before the incident?
A
No, not that I know of.
Q
You said that he had two children?
A
Yes.
Q
How old are his children?
A
12 and 10.
Q
Are they 13 and 10 now or when this
happened?
A
My grandson is 12 years old. He'll be 13
this month, December 20th.
Q
That's right around Christmas. Double

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It's just to get help with drug stuff and all that.
So I went over there, you know, he took me over
there. I wasn't too -- what do you call it -- about
the place. I drive through this area -- this place
a lot and it just -- it just didn't look good, but
he wanted to go there, so I agreed. I said okay.
Q
Do you know how he found out about that
place?
A
I'm not sure.
Q
Do you know if he had ever been there
before?
A
Not that I know of.
Q
Did he tell you why specifically he wanted
to go there, what problems he was having with drugs?
A
He didn't really say, but I knew it had to
be with drugs and stuff like that, so.
Q
What was your understanding of what types
of drugs he was having problems with at the time?
A
Marijuana probably, the drinking.
Q
What time of the day did you take him
there?
A
It was about 1:00 or so in the afternoon,
2:00, something like that.
Q
When you dropped him off, did you go

12 (Pages 42 to 45)
ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

 CARMELO SANTIAGO
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inside with him?
A
No. I dropped him off in front of the
place.
Q
Do you know if he actually went in?
A
No. There was guys standing outside.
When he got off, he approached them and shook their
hands and stuff. Probably guys he knew from going
there.
Q
Okay. And then what did you see?
A
That was the last time I saw him, and then
two days later is when this happened.
Q
Sitting here today, do you know if he
actually went inside for treatment?
A
I really don't know. I can't tell you
because I drove off. Like I said, I saw him go up
to the guys in front of the place and then I just
left.
Q
Okay. Do you think he was buying drugs
from them?
A
No. It's a drug place. There's no way
they're going to be selling drugs right there.
Q
I know that you told me that you drove off
after that and didn't see anything, but what I'm
trying to figure out is now today, you know,

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you?
A
He sounded paranoid. He was telling me,
Dad, come pick me up. I'm being followed. I told
him, okay, where are you at, and he told me
Frankford. I pretty much know that area, so I just
got in my dad's truck and drove down Frankford.
It was like going towards 69th Street, and
as I'm driving I spotted him. He was walking and,
you know, paranoid, looking back. His hands
were like -- he was just really paranoid. I never
saw him like this before, so it kind of scared me.
MR. POPPER: You indicated
waving the hands.
MS. SHOFFEL: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: So we made eye
contact. He saw me and I waved to him to
come in the car, so he looked and came in
the car. He was still paranoid. You
know, I locked the door and he was telling
me, Dad, I'm being followed. You don't
know. You don't know.
I told him, Mel, please calm
down. You're with me now. You're okay.
Nothing is going to happen. I told him

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anything you might have heard since then? Do you
know if he actually went inside?
A
I know he was going there because I
received a call actually on the day my son got
killed. I received a call from the place there.
Q
And what did they tell you?
A
They were just asking about my son. They
wanted to know how Carmelo was doing. I had to give
them the bad news. My son is no longer with us.
Q
After you dropped him off there on Friday,
at some point he came back to your house?
A
I didn't see him until that actual day. I
was kind of concerned because I didn't hear from him
that Friday night, that Saturday, until the Sunday
he called me.
Q
What time on Sunday did he call you?
A
It was about 1:00, maybe 12:30, around
there.
Q
Did he call you from a cell phone?
A
No, I don't believe so because I don't
think he had a cell phone. I think he called from
somewhere outside where he was at down there on
Frankford.
Q
And what did he tell you when he called

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nothing is going to happen. Please relax.
He was still kind of edgy and looking
back.
So I mean, I never in my life
seen him like this. I never seen him like
that so it was really scary. I was like
whew. Actually, I was glad that he called
me and I could go get him. Because those
two nights I was so worried because he
usually would call me for something like
that.
Friday he would call me to tell
me if he's going to spend the night over
with his girlfriend or something like
that, so. It was, you know, I was really
worried about him and everything, so when
he finally called I was glad. Like I
said, I was glad that I found him.
BY MS. SHOFFEL:
Q
When you picked him up when you found him,
do you remember where exactly that was?
A
I'm not sure. It was, like I said, going
towards 69th Street. It could have been close to
around Church Street, that area.

13 (Pages 46 to 49)
ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

 CARMELO SANTIAGO
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Q
Where is that in relation to the place you
dropped him off at on Friday? Is it close? Is it
far away?
A
No, it's far away.
Q
Oh, okay. Did you know how to find him?
Did he tell you that on the phone?
A
No, he just said Frankford Avenue. Like I
said, I pretty much know Frankford. So what I did,
I took Frankford from where I live straight down.
Q
I know you told me a lot about the way he
was acting. When you saw him again when you picked
him up, what did he look like?
A
He just looked paranoid. He was paranoid
like someone who was afraid of being followed.
Q
Did he look like he had any injuries, did
he look disheveled, anything about his appearance
that was different from the time you dropped him
off?
A
No, just that he was paranoid, so
paranoid.
Q
Once he got in the car with you, did he
tell you that he had done any drugs or anything like
that?
A
No. He was just -- he was just so

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ride until you got to your house?
A
No. He was still pretty paranoid like,
you know, so. As we pulled up, I parked in front of
the house. And as I got out of the truck, he slid
over to the driver's side, he closed the door and
locked the door. He didn't want to come out of car.
So at that point, my sister-in-law, my oldest
brother, my dad, and me, you know, we were outside.
We were telling him, Mel, come on out. You know, he
was still kind of paranoid. He didn't want to come
out of the truck.
So we were just talking and finally my
sister-in-law -- she lives two doors down from me.
It's my oldest brother's wife. She was talking with
him, and finally she got him to unlock the door. He
was like okay but stand back, he was telling us. So
he unlocks the door. He runs in the house, not
runs, but walking pretty fast. He was holding the
sweater that he had on that day.
As he goes in the house, he drops the
sweater. My mother is sitting on the sofa. And as
he's walking towards the kitchen, he looks at my mom
and he says, Grandmom, I love you. I love you,
Grandmom. He went to the kitchen and I came and

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paranoid, and, you know, moving around a lot. You
know, like scared like someone's after him. I just
kept trying to calm him down. I kept telling him,
Mel, you're okay. You're with me. Nothing is going
to happen.
Q
At that point did you think that he was on
something?
A
Well, yeah, I pretty much could tell
because of the way he was so paranoid and looking
behind his back and stuff like that.
Q
Where did you go after you got in the car?
A
We went straight back to my house on 3rd
Street.
Q
And other than what you just told me and
the conversation you had with him, did you guys talk
about anything else? Did he say anything else to
you?
A
Just that. Just that. He was paranoid.
Dad, you know don't. I said, Mel, I know, I know
but calm down, please. You're with me. You're
safe. Nothing is going to happen and then he
started to -- he kept repeating God loves me. God
loves me. God loves me. I love God. That was it.
Q
Did he calm down at any point during the

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followed him.
So as he went to the kitchen, he sat on
the corner. There's a sink in the kitchen. He sat
on that corner there. There's a drawer with knives,
spoons, forks, so what he did was he was reaching
like this and, you know, until he grabbed a knife.
MR. POPPER: Indicating an
over-the-head motion of grabbing.
THE WITNESS: So he finally
grabbed the knife. It was like a butter
knife or steak knife, something like that.
A steak knife.
BY MS. SHOFFEL:
Q
I'm going to stop you right there for a
second because you gave me a lot of information. I
just want to ask you a few follow-up questions.
Okay?
A
Um-hmm.
Q
How long was he in the truck for before he
came out?
A
I'd say maybe about 10, 15 minutes. It
could have been more.
Q
And when you said when he got out of the
truck he went straight into the house?

14 (Pages 50 to 53)
ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

 CARMELO SANTIAGO
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A
Yes.
Q
And he went in the kitchen?
A
Yes.
Q
I'm going to show you some pictures that
have been turned over.
MS. SHOFFEL: Can we mark this
as Exhibit 1?
(At this time, the court
reporter marked Exhibit 1 for
identification.)
BY MS. SHOFFEL:
Q
Now, sir, I'm going to warn you that the
last picture is a picture with your son in it.
Okay?
MR. POPPER: Why don't you go to
a machine like we did at my office and
block that out, please? The last two.
MS. SHOFFEL: Okay.
MR. POPPER: I would request
that. That's what we did when we used
them in my office. We put a card over
that.
MS. SHOFFEL: Okay. Can we take
a five minute break?

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here.
Q
Was there anyone else that was in that
living room or family room area when he first came
into the house?
A
I believe my sister was down there with my
mom.
Q
And do you remember where they were
standing or seating?
A
I'm not sure, but they were standing
around the living room somewhere.
Q
If you turn to the next picture, that's
kind of a better view of the family room and living
room area.
A
Yes.
Q
Can you tell me from looking at that
picture where they might have been?
A
They might have been just standing around
and sitting with my mom, maybe. My mom was sitting
there.
Q
And I'll indicate for the record that
plaintiff has circled one of the couches in the
second picture to indicate.
You also said that there was some people
outside?

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(At this time, a short break was
taken.)
BY MS. SHOFFEL:
Q
Sir, before we took a break, you were
telling me how your son first came into the house
after he had been in the car. I have some pictures
in front of you, and there's been a lot of pictures
that have been passed back and forth during the
course of discovery. I picked out a few that I
thought might be helpful. I'm in no way trying to
trick you. If there's something that I ask you
about and is not depicted about in one of these
pictures, just let me know. Okay?
A
Okay.
Q
The first picture in this packet, it looks
like this is when you first come into your house?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. You said that there were
individuals or your mother was seated somewhere in
the house?
A
Yes.
Q
Can you point out or maybe circle on that
picture where she was seated?
A
She was sitting right here on this sofa

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A
Yes.
Q
Did anyone else come into the house?
A
Just me and my dad because my oldest
brother that was out there and his wife, after they
saw that he went into the house they left.
Q
Okay. So who were all the people that
were inside the house at that point?
A
My sister.
Q
That's Miriam?
A
Miriam, my younger sister, and my mom.
Q
And you and your dad obviously?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. Did your son pause or stop in the
living room area at all or did he go straight to the
kitchen?
A
No, he went straight. As he was walking,
he saw my mom sitting there. He said, I love you,
Grandmom, I love you. And then he just went
straight to the back to the kitchen.
Q
We can skip the next picture because I
think that's just more of the same. But the fourth
picture in the packet looks like a view of your
kitchen?
A
Yes.

15 (Pages 54 to 57)
ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

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Q
Can you see in this picture where he
immediately went to when he first got into the
kitchen?
A
Right here where the open drawer is at.
He was sitting in that corner.
Q
Sorry. Again indicating for the record
that he has circled the area in picture number four.
Can you describe for me how he was
sitting, where his back was to?
A
He was sitting right on the corner here.
He had his back where the open drawer is. What he
did was he reached over his head and was pulling out
the stuff.
Q
Was his back against the wood paneling of
the cabinet or was his back -A
Yes, on the wood.
Q
Okay. What did he grab out of the drawer?
A
He was gabbing -- some stuff fell out,
forks, until he grabbed a knife and then he -Q
You can put that away. We're done with
that for now.
I know you said he tried to grab a few
things and things were falling out. Did he
eventually grab something in his hand?

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Q
Once you and your father were in the
kitchen and your son was holding -- was he holding
the steak knife at that point?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. Did anybody say anything?
A
Yeah, I told him. I said, Mel, please
don't do this. I was like, Oh, Mel, please don't do
this. I went like that.
Q
What did you not want him to do?
A
Put the knife in his neck. I didn't want
him to jab himself or something. I was afraid that
he would -- with the condition that he was -Q
You're afraid that he would hurt himself?
A
Um-hmm.
Q
Okay. Did he say anything to you after
you said that?
A
He just kept saying God loves me. God
loves me. I love grandmom. God loves me. He kept
repeating pretty much God loves me. I love God.
Q
It sounds like although he was speaking he
might not have been responding to what you were
saying?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. Did he say anything else as he

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A
Yes.
Q
What was it?
A
The knife.
Q
Can you describe the knife?
A
A steak knife, a small steak knife.
Q
Okay. What hand was that in?
A
His right hand.
Q
And did you watch him do all this?
A
Yes.
Q
Who else was in the kitchen with you?
A
My dad.
Q
And what was your mom and your sister
doing?
A
They were sitting in the living room.
Q
Was there any reason that they didn't come
to the kitchen, too?
A
My mom, first of all, she's diabetic. She
can't walk. She can't walk at all. She needs a
walker, and she doesn't move around too great. And
my sister just stood there. They saw how he was, I
guess, when he came in and they could tell. So my
sister was -- I looked at her face. It was like she
was scared, you know, so she stood there with my mom
as I walked to the kitchen.

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continued to talk other than what you just told me
about?
A
No, not that I recall.
Q
What was the very next thing you did?
A
As we were talking to him, me and my dad,
he asked for a cigarette. My dad gave him a
cigarette. He asked for water. I gave him a cup of
water. As I went to give it to him, he was like,
no, Dad. Give it to me. He didn't want to grab the
cup, so he took a sip.
MR. POPPER: Indicating holding
the cup up to your son's lips.
BY MS. SHOFFEL:
Q
What happened after that?
A
He asked for a cigarette. My dad gave him
a cigarette. Then after that we were like, Mel,
don't do this. Please. Come on. Put the knife
down, please.
That's all I kept telling him was please
put it down. Don't do this. Don't do this.
Please. I was just so -- we tried. Me and my dad,
we tried to, you know, tell him to put the knife
down. He wasn't like listening really. He was
just -- like I said, kept repeating God loves me. I

16 (Pages 58 to 61)
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Control No.: 13060429

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love God. God loves me.
And after a little while trying to get him
to put the knife down, I was to the point that I was
like I might have to call the police. I might have
to call for help because it's not looking really
good. So I decided to call the cops. I called the
cops. What I did was, I walked to the front door on
my cell phone and I called the cops.
Q
Again, I'm going to stop you and ask you a
few follow-up questions before we move on. At any
point while you or your father were talking to him
did he put the knife down?
A
No.
Q
Was the knife up to this throat the entire
time?
A
Yes, on the throat.
Q
Did you observe any time that he actually
cut himself with the knife?
A
You know, I didn't see no blood, but he
had it like -- I could see him pressing it towards
his neck, but I actually didn't see.
Q
Do you remember what hand he had the knife
in at that point?
A
What hand he had the knife in? His right

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A
I told them I need help. My son has a
knife on his throat. Please send someone to help.
I need help. I want to admit him to the hospital.
Q
When you went to the front door area, do
you know if your father or anybody else tried to
talk to him during that time?
A
Yeah, my dad stood there in the kitchen.
Q
Do you know anything your dad said to him?
A
Just telling him, Mel, put down the knife.
Put down the knife.
Q
And do you know if at any time he put down
the knife?
A
No, he never did.
Q
After the first phone call to the police,
what happened, or what did they tell you when you
were on the phone with them?
A
They said okay. We'll send someone out.
Q
What did you do after that, after you hung
up the phone with them?
A
I walked back and saw him still with the
knife, and I was still trying to talk to him to put
it down. He wasn't listening. At that point like
no cops were coming, no nothing, so I decided to go
and call the cops a second time.

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hand.
Q
You said eventually you called for help or
you made the decision to call for -A
Yeah, I made the decision. I just walked
towards the front door. I didn't want him to see me
calling.
Q
Why didn't you want him to see that?
A
I didn't want him to -- maybe he would
have killed himself or hurt himself or something so
I didn't want to -- I needed help. I wanted help.
Q
How long was it from the point that he
first ran in the kitchen and grabbed a knife and you
made the first phone call to the police?
A
About 15, 20 minutes.
Q
At that point from the time you first saw
him when you picked him up at Frankford to the time
that he was in the kitchen with the knife, did you
notice any other change in his demeanor or behavior?
A
No, it was the same.
Q
When you went to the front door area to
call the police -- let me back up.
Did you call 911?
A
Yes.
Q
What did you tell them?

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Q
Okay. How much time passed between the
time that you hung up with 911 the first time and
when you decided to call them again?
A
Maybe 10, 20 minutes.
Q
I know you told me that the first time you
called them you asked them to send somebody out to
the house during the first phone call, right?
A
Yes.
Q
Do you remember specifically everything
you told the dispatcher on the phone at that point?
A
I said I need help. My son has a knife on
his throat. Please send someone. I want to admit
him to the hospital, Episcopal Hospital. I believe
I told them Episcopal Hospital because that's not
too far away from where we live.
Q
Did you tell them Episcopal because it was
the closest?
A
Yes.
Q
Did you tell them anything else at that
point?
A
I just kept telling them please send
someone.
Q
Okay. During the 10 to 20 minutes that
passed in between the first phone call and the

17 (Pages 62 to 65)
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Control No.: 13060429

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second phone call, what were you doing?
A
During the time you say I was on the
phone -Q
To the time you called again.
A
-- to the time I called again?
Q
Um-hmm.
A
It was -- like I said, I left the first
time to call and stood at the door, went back, and
then after that I did pretty much the same thing. I
started walking towards the front door to call
again.
Q
For those 10 to 20 minutes, did you go
back and try to talk to him again?
A
Yes.
Q
And was it kind of the same situation that
you told me about earlier?
A
Um-hmm.
Q
Was there anything different that happened
in those 10 to 20 minutes?
A
No.
Q
Was there any changes of his behavior in
those 10 to 20 minutes?
A
No.
Q
Did he put down the knife at all in those

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A
I believe they said, okay, we have someone
coming out.
Q
What did you do after you hung up with
them?
A
I just went back to the kitchen because my
dad stood there like I said. He kind of stood there
both times I went to use the phone. I just walked
back. I walked back and looked at him, and I was
telling him, Mel, please, please put it down.
Please.
Q
Okay. How long was it until the police
arrived?
A
It took awhile, maybe 20 minutes or so.
Q
20 minutes?
A
Maybe more. I'm not sure.
Q
I'm going to ask you the same set of
questions. During those 20 minutes did anything
about his behavior change?
A
No.
Q
Did you keep trying to talk to him in
those 20 minutes?
A
Yes.
Q
Did he respond to you at all other than
talking about --

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10 to 20 minutes?
A
No.
Q
The second phone call to the police, did
you walk away again?
A
Yeah, I walked towards the door.
Q
Okay. What did you tell them on the
second phone call?
A
I said please send someone. My son has a
knife. I said please. I believe I told them this
is the second time I'm calling. Please. My son
needs help. I want to admit him to Episcopal
Hospital.
Q
Do you recall if you told them anything
about his mental condition at that point?
A
No.
Q
Do you recall if he told you about any
narcotics that he was on at that point?
A
No.
Q
And we'll listen to the tapes later. I
just want to understand what you remember
independent of listening to them. Okay?
A
Um-hmm.
Q
Do you remember what the dispatcher told
you in the second phone call?

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A
No. He just kept repeating Jesus loves
me. I love God. I love God. Jesus loves me.
Q
Okay. Did he put down the knife at all
during those 20 minutes?
A
No.
Q
Tell me everything that happened when the
police arrived.
A
I saw the police come in. Me and my dad
were in the kitchen. I saw the two officers come
in. They came in with guns drawn, meaning they had
their guns in their hand. They had their guns out.
They both came in.
At that point I was like moving towards
like the living room because I could see them coming
in through the door. They responded, the cops said
where is he at, and we told him -- I pointed to the
kitchen, and I said he's there. He's in the
kitchen.
Q
Let me stop you right there for a second.
The two officers -- I think that your attorney and I
can agree that the two officers who arrived were
Police Officer McCarthy and Police Officer
Nicoletti?
A
Correct.

18 (Pages 66 to 69)
ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

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Q
Okay. Do you have an idea of who each one
was? Do you know either of the officers by name?
A
Yes.
Q
I think for the sake of clarification, if
you can and if you know, if you can tell me who was
saying what and who was doing what. That would be
really helpful.
So when you said the cop says where is he,
do you know who said that?
A
I believe that was Nicoletti.
Q
Okay. Continue.
A
He said where is he at, and I pointed to
the kitchen. The officers at that point said stand
back.
Q
Did both of them say that?
A
I'm not sure which one, but I believe it
was one of them that said stand back.
Q
Okay. Keep going.
A
They went to the kitchen. Nicoletti -- I
don't know if I can look at a picture of the kitchen
so I can show you pretty much -Q
Indicating the last picture in the packet.
A
They came in. At first they looked like
they were both side to side but it couldn't haven

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A
-- so I could see the two officers. Like
I said, Nicoletti was here and McCarthy was here.
So when they went in, they asked him what's wrong.
What do you want. One of them -- Nicoletti asked
him what do you want. Nicoletti asked him what do
you want, and my son responds to him crack. And
Nicoletti says, okay, I can get that for you. How
much do you want, a quarter pound, a pound, and
stuff like that. My son, he just kept repeating
Jesus loves me. God loves me. At that point,
McCarthy tells my son what does God have to do with
this.
At that point -- first of all, when
Nicoletti was talking to him like that and telling
him, okay, I can get that for you. How much do you
want. At that point, I'm like why is he talking to
my son like that. Like I said, my son just kept,
Jesus loves me. Jesus loves me. God loves me. And
that's when McCarthy tells him what does God have to
do with this, and I'm just standing there and
listening. I'm really close and I'm listening, and
I just kept saying to myself why is he talking to my
son like this. Why are they talking to him like
that. My son has a knife at his throat.

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been. From my angle in the living room, I
couldn't -- you know. So anyway, Nicoletti was
here.
Q
Can you circle it with your pen? How
about you put an N for Nicoletti? I think that will
make it easier.
A
He was standing at the end of the table
over here on this.
Q
Okay.
A
The other officer was standing right here
in between. Right here.
Q
Can you put an M where Officer McCarthy
was standing?
A
He was standing at the other end of the
table.
Q
Okay. What happened next?
A
So I'm standing like in the middle of the
living room.
Q
Can you circle where you were standing?
A
I was standing around here in the middle.
Q
Okay.
A
At that point I could see -Q
Indicating on picture one with an X and an
arrow where he was standing.

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So then as I hear that, like I said, I'm
like, whew, wondering why are they talking to him
like that. Then moments later, this is when I see a
female officer coming in, and she has a taser
because I saw the taser. I see the light blinking,
so I knew it was a taser gun she had.
Q
I'm going to stop you there for a second.
Again, I want to ask you some follow-up questions.
Okay?
A
Um-hmm.
Q
My understanding is you were standing in
the living room area while this was happening?
A
Yes, in the middle between right there.
Q
Could you see Officer Nicoletti?
A
I could see him both, yes.
Q
You could see McCarthy and Nicoletti?
A
Yes. I have good eyesight looking at both
of them.
Q
I meant more there was nothing obstructing
your view?
A
No.
Q
Okay. Could you see your son at that
point?
A
I couldn't see my son at that point.

19 (Pages 70 to 73)
ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

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Q
How long were the officers talking to him
before the officer with the taser showed up?
A
15, 20 minutes. It pretty much all
happened fast.
Q
What happened when the officer with the
taser arrived?
A
I seen her coming in, so I know that she's
the officer with the taser.
Q
At that point you said you could still see
both McCarthy and Nicoletti?
A
Yes.
Q
Can you describe what Officer Nicoletti
was doing? What did he look like? You said before
he had his gun drawn. Did he still have his gun
drawn?
A
Yes, they both had their guns like this
towards my son.
Q
Pointing the firearm at your son?
A
Not directly pointing at him. They had
the gun like this.
Q
Indicating for the record down to the
ground.
A
Yeah, something like that. That's what it
seems like, yes.

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have more room because he felt like he was too
tight, I guess, in there. So I have a clear view of
my son at that point.
Q
Can you just label who the female officer
with the taser was? Maybe we can just put a T for
her on picture four.
(At this time, witness complies
with request.)
BY MS. SHOFFEL:
Q
I understand it's difficult to write on
these. And then this circle to the left of that
circle is where you were?
A
Yes, to her right. I'll put C for me.
Q
All right. What happened next?
A
So I could see my son and he's, you know,
he's still there repeating God loves me. Jesus
loves me.
Q
When you saw him, did he still have the
knife up to his throat?
A
Yes, the whole time.
Q
Okay.
A
So moments after that, I see the
officer -Q
Which officer?

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Q
Officer McCarthy the same?
A
Yes, both of them.
Q
Okay. When officer -- the female officer
with the taser, when she arrived, what did she do?
A
She walked in. I don't recall even
speaking to her or her speaking. She just came
walking in, and she saw us in the kitchen -- not me.
She saw me standing there, and as she's coming in,
we both -- I kind of walked with her. So at that
point, I'm standing on this end and the officer with
the taser is standing there. We were side to side.
At this point, when we walked over here at this
point, I could see my son. I had good vision with
my son then.
Q
Indicating -A
This table here -- I forgot to mention
this. This table here, he kind of pushed it with
his leg when he ran to the kitchen. This table,
it's out a little bit. You could see it was more
towards -- it was close to this corner here where my
son was at.
Q
Okay.
A
So what he did when he sat down with his
left foot, he pushed it. He slid it a little bit to

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A
Nicoletti. He lunged at my son. He
jumped on my son.
Q
Okay. When you saw him lunge towards your
son, did your son still have the knife up to his
throat?
A
No. I saw my son. I looked at my son. I
seen him put down the knife.
Q
And that's when Officer Nicoletti lunged
at him?
A
That's when he jumped on him.
Q
What did you see happen after that?
A
There was a little scuffle. I could only
see the back of the officer. At that point, he was
pretty much blocking my son. A little scuffle. My
son was just, you know, I guess -- I don't know -blocking himself or something.
And the next thing you know I heard a pop.
When I heard that pop, I knew it was a gunshot.
Officer Nicoletti falls back. As he falls back, he
falls on the floor. So as he falls on the floor,
McCarthy, his partner, stood there holding my son
with one hand because he had the other gun still
drawn at my son. He looks at Officer Nicoletti and
he tells Nicoletti are you hit, and Nicoletti says

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yes.
McCarthy just shot my son two more times,
and my son was just sitting there. He wasn't even
moving at that point. Because when McCarthy -- when
Nicoletti falls back, my son is just sitting there,
and the other officer turns around and looks at his
partner and he asked him. He said are you hit, and
the officer says yes. Nicoletti says yes. And
that's when McCarthy just shot my son twice right on
his side, right at his heart.
At that point I'm like screaming. I'm
screaming and yelling at the cops. I'm yelling what
are you doing. What are you doing, you know. I'm
looking at my son, and my son is looking at me. The
next thing I know, I just see my son and he just
faded away.
Q
Okay. When you said McCarthy was holding
someone back -A
He was like -- had my son with one hand
and his gun -- because at that point my son wasn't
moving, but he was like that. Are you hit. He
turns around and looks at his partner. Are you hit
and he says yes, and then pow, pow. And at that
point, I'm like, oh my God. What are you doing.

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Nicoletti's gun discharged?
A
I have no idea. I don't know if -- for
me, he had the gun the whole time and he just shot
at my son.
Q
Could you tell if Officer Nicoletti shot
himself in the chest with the gun?
A
No, I couldn't tell, no.
Q
Could you see your son's hands at any
point during the struggle?
A
Yeah. Actually. He was like -- it was
like he was like blocking himself.
MR. POPPER: Indicating putting
two hands up at the chest and pushing out.
BY MS. SHOFFEL:
Q
You said at some point Officer Nicoletti
fell backwards?
A
After the pop, he fell back to the floor.
Q
Okay. Did you understand at that point
that he had been shot?
MR. POPPER: Objection to the
form.
THE WITNESS: I believe that,
you know -- no. I was more looking at my
son, you know. At the point when his

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Q
Did you see any of the struggle between
your son and Officer Nicoletti?
A
It was a little scuffle. It wasn't
nothing like a struggle. It was a little scuffle
like this. I hear the pop and he falls back.
Q
When they were scuffling, do you know if
your son had anything in his hands at that point?
A
I seen him put his hand down. When he put
his hand down, Nicoletti jumped on him at that
point.
Q
Okay. Could you tell if they were
struggling over the gun?
A
No, because -Q
I'm sorry. Let me rephrase that question.
Hang on one second. It was a poorly worded
question.
Could you tell what, if anything, they
were struggling over?
A
No. Like I said, at that point, Officer
Nicoletti, I could just see his back and at that
point I couldn't even see my son. Like I told you,
I seen my son before he jumped on him -- I seen my
son put his hand down.
Q
Do you have any idea how Officer

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partner -- McCarthy asked him are you hit.
I was right there. I knew, okay, he said
he was hit.
BY MS. SHOFFEL:
Q
You understand that Officer Nicoletti is
the only defendant this lawsuit, right?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay.
MR. POPPER: I'm going to object
to the form. In this particular the one
against -MS. SHOFFEL: Yes, in this
lawsuit.
MR. POPPER: Well, there's two.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
MS. SHOFFEL: The lawsuit that
you are here for right now that you are
bringing which you are a plaintiff.
BY MS. SHOFFEL:
Q
You understand that Officer Nicoletti is
the only named police officer in that lawsuit?
MR. POPPER: Again, I'm just
going to object to the form because there
are no notices as to which we're here for.

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I presented him today. You haven't
noticed any depositions, so I don't know
that that's clear. If you want to do
that, we can -MS. SHOFFEL: We don't have to.
We can note the objection for the record.
You're not directing him not to answer,
right?
MR. POPPER: Of course not. No,
no. I just want it to be clear because we
could be here for the federal one or the
-MS. SHOFFEL: Understood. Let
me get some clarification.
BY MS. SHOFFEL:
Q
You understand that there are two lawsuits
going on for this incident right now, correct?
A
Correct.
Q
You understand that you're giving
deposition testimony today under oath, correct?
A
Correct.
Q
You understand that this deposition in
which you are answering questions could actually be
used in either lawsuit where you are called to

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lawsuit. Okay?
A
Okay.
Q
I'm going to direct your attention to page
one, paragraph number three. It says on March 13,
2011, Carmelo Winans suffered from a mental illness.
Can you identify what information you have
that he was suffering from a mental illness on March
13, 2011?
MR. POPPER: I'm going to object
and direct him not to answer.
MS. SHOFFEL: Why?
MR. POPPER: He's not a lawyer
first of all. He has drafted this
complaint along with his lawyers in
consultation with his lawyers. These are
the legal conclusions that we have put
forth in the complaint, and he's verified
that it's accurate to the best of his
ability. If you're asking him any legal
theories, he's not a lawyer and he's not
going to answer any questions of that
nature.
MS. SHOFFEL: I will rephrase.
MR. POPPER: If you want to ask

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testify? Do you understand that?
A
I understand.
Q
Okay. Do you understand that the lawsuit
in which you brought yourself only has one defendant
in it and that is Officer Nicoletti, right?
A
I thought it was both, so.
Q
I will represent to you in the lawsuit
that you brought there's only one police officer
defendant. Okay? I want you to tell me based on
everything you just told me why you think Officer
Nicoletti caused your son's death.
MR. POPPER: I'm going to object
and direct him not to answer that
question. There's a complaint, and he's
verified the complaint.
MS. SHOFFEL: We can mark this
as Exhibit 2. Okay. Let's go to the
complaint.
(At this time, the court
reporter marked Exhibit 2 for
identification.)
BY MS. SHOFFEL:
Q
Sir, I have just handed you what's been
marked as Exhibit 2. This is the complaint in this

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him did you review this complaint, did you
draw this complaint in conjunction with
your lawyers and if he verified the facts
in the complaint are accurate and true in
compliance with the verification, that's
fine. But I'm not going to allow you to
go through chapter and verse with him and
ask him his legal opinion and whether it
sustains a legal causation.
MS. SHOFFEL: Okay. Everybody
calm down. I'm not going to ask him that.
I'll rephrase the question. Okay?
MR. POPPER: Um-hmm.
BY MS. SHOFFEL:
Q
Sir, did you have any personal knowledge
on March 13, 2011 that your son was suffering from a
mental illness?
A
That day, yes.
Q
Okay. Can you describe what caused you to
believe that?
MR. POPPER: Objection. He's
answered all of your questions as to the
state and condition his son was in that
day.

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MS. SHOFFEL: I'm trying to just
figure out -- and let me just tell you
what I'm trying to figure out and maybe we
can all think of another way that the
question will be addressed in a way that
we can all agree to it.
MR. POPPER: Okay.
BY MS. SHOFFEL:
Q
You've given me a lot of information
during this deposition that your son may have had a
substance abuse problem. Okay?
A
Um-hmm.
Q
What I'm trying to figure is if apart from
any drug issues that there was a diagnosis of a
mental illness apart from the substance abuse.
Do you know apart from the substance
abuse, if he had a diagnosis of any mental
illnesses?
A
No, no.
Q
Okay. That's all I wanted to know. Thank
you.
A
Okay.
Q
When the officer with the taser -- after
she arrived and you indicated that you were both in

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weapon, what was the very next thing that happened?
A
After he fired -- after the first fire
went off, he fell back. He fell on the floor on his
back.
Q
Was there anybody else in the doorway at
any point?
A
My dad. My dad was -- he came up to the
doorway at that point. He could see my son, too.
Q
Okay. After this incident, I understand
that you had some -- and we talked about it
earlier -- some treatments and therapy and things
like that?
A
Who? Me or my son?
Q
You.
A
Yes.
Q
When was the first time that you saw any
kind of medical professional after this accident?
A
The first time?
Q
Yes.
A
In 2007 when I went to -Q
I'm sorry. Let me rephrase that. After
this incident in March of 2011, when was the first
time you went to speak to any medical health
professional or mental health professional about

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the doorway area of the kitchen -A
Yes. I walked towards -- as she was
coming in, I walked with her.
Q
At any point, did she go into the kitchen?
A
She was beside me pretty much, you know.
When she came there, she stood there, and at that
point she could visualize my son, too. She didn't
come over here where they were at or anything like
that.
Q
How long was she standing in the doorway
before Officer Nicoletti lunged at your son?
A
Seconds later. When she came is when
everything -- everything just -- I don't know. It
went crazy and out of control.
Q
Okay. At any point -- and I understand
that you were in the doorway of the kitchen, too,
right?
A
Yes.
Q
At any point did you actually go into the
kitchen?
A
I didn't go into the kitchen. I was
standing aside. Like I told you, at that point
where I was standing here, I would see my son.
Q
Okay. After Officer Nicoletti fired his

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this incident?
A
A month later.
Q
A month later?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. I don't think I have any other
questions for you about any of this material, but
there was some 911 tapes that were produced.
A
Yes.
Q
And I want to see if you can help me
identify some of the voices. I think they might be
you -- but identify some of the voices in the tapes
and for that we have to move into my office.
MR. POPPER: But I have few
questions first.
MS. SHOFFEL: Sure.
BY MR. POPPER:
Q
Mr. Santiago, you're not a mental health
expert, are you?
A
No.
Q
You don't have any training in mental
health whatsoever, do you?
A
No.
Q
Now the behavior that you described of
your son, Carmelo Winans, on the day of this

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incident, you testified that that was behavior that
was inconsistent with his normal state; isn't that
correct?
A
What do you mean normal state?
Q
He didn't normally act like this,
paranoid, things in which you've described for Ms.
Shoffel in this whole deposition?
A
No.
Q
This wasn't his normal behavior, was it?
A
No.
Q
And if you were to see somebody on the
street saying Jesus loves me, Jesus loves me,
repeating things like that, would you think that
they were not in a normal mental state?
A
Probably, yes.
Q
Would you believe that they suffered from
some mental illness or infirmity?
A
Probably.
Q
Is that what in the complaint that has
been filed on your behalf against Officer Nicoletti
when you reviewed this, was that what your
understanding of mental illness was? Your son was
acting in an inconsistent manner on the day that he
was shot by the officers?

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Q
Other than that arrest for marijuana, did
you know of any other arrests for any kind of
narcotics that he had?
A
Not that I know of, no.
Q
Okay. Was your son ever married?
A
He did get married with the girlfriend
that he had the problems with him. He kind of
shocked me about it. He called me and told me -well, I didn't even find out from him. I mean, like
I said, my son kept a lot to himself. He was really
quiet. I found out from my sister-in-law that he
had supposedly gotten married.
Q
And the woman that he married, is that the
mother of his kids?
A
No.
MS. SHOFFEL: Okay. I don't
have anything else.
(At this time, a short break was
taken.)
MS. SHOFFEL: This is a radio
tape that was from 3/13/11 that begins at
2:29 which a telephone call from the
operations desk made from 1734 North 3rd
Street. And we're going to start with

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A

Yes, yes, yes.
MR. POPPER: That's all I have.
MS. SHOFFEL: Just one or two
follow-up questions.
BY MS. SHOFFEL:
Q
Sir, I know that we talked previously
about your son's arrest history and you told me
that -- and I think from what I remember, that he
had an assault arrest for something that happened
with his girlfriend's family?
A
Yes.
Q
Did you ever know that he was -- or do you
have any knowledge of him ever being arrested for
drugs?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. When was that?
A
Marijuana.
Q
Do you remember -A
I'm not sure. Maybe two or three years
ago.
Q
Two or three years before this incident?
A
Yes.
Q
So that would have been around 2008, 2009?
A
Yes.

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track one.
BY MS. SHOFFEL:
Q
And, sir, I'm just going to have you
listen to the first few recordings and tell me if
you recognize the person's voice or if it's your own
voice. Okay?
A
Yes.
Q
Do you know who this person is?
A
I have no idea.
Q
Do you know who that was in that phone
call?
A
No, I don't.
Q
So that was track six on that tape. Do
you know who made that call or whose voice that was?
A
No, I don't.
Q
Is that your voice?
A
Yes, it is.
Q
Okay. That was track eight and that was
your voice in that 911 call?
A
Yes.
Q
Having listened to that, does that refresh
a recollection if you actually made three 911 calls
that day? Did you make a 911 call while your son
was still in the car?

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96

A
I don't remember that.
1
Q
Okay. We don't have to listen to the
2
entire thing, but that was track ten and was that 3
the 911 call that you made?
4
A
Yes.
5
MS. SHOFFEL: And I believe
6
that's the end of it. I don't have
7
anything else. Thanks.
8
THE WITNESS: Okay.
9
(Witness excused.)
10
(Deposition ended at 12:14 p.m.) 11

EXHIBIT 1

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95

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CERTIFICATION

1
2
3
I, Julie A. Damiani, a
4
Professional Reporter and Notary Public
5
for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, do 6
hereby certify that the foregoing is a
7
true and accurate transcript of the
8
stenographic notes taken by me in the
9
aforementioned matter.
10
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--12
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DATED: DECEMBER 28, 2012
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_________________________
23
JULIE A. DAMIANI
24

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EXHIBIT 2

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A
ability 84:19
abuse 86:11,15,17
accident 88:17
accurate 84:18 85:4
95:8
act 90:5
acting 50:11 90:23
active 9:21,22 10:2
actual 47:12
addition 24:14
address 7:3
addressed 86:5
admit 64:3 65:12
67:11
adult 16:13,14,17
aforementioned
95:10
afraid 50:14 60:11,13
afternoon 4:13 45:22
ago 8:18 10:10 25:4
27:22 91:20
agree 69:21 86:6
agreed 45:6
agreement 4:1
aide 28:2
alcohol 38:15
Allegheny 21:21 22:7
23:21
allow 85:6
Amador 7:14 8:1,2
27:12
Amanda 2:7 4:13
Angelo 21:14,15,18
22:3,5,13
angle 71:1
answer 5:7,13,20 6:6
82:7 83:13 84:10,21
answered 15:18
85:22
answering 6:5 82:23
anticipate 5:8
anxiety 22:20 23:4
24:24 26:24 41:22
anybody 60:5 64:5
88:5

anyway 71:2
apart 86:13,15,16
apologize 11:19
appearance 50:16
approached 46:6
approximately 29:14
Arazmo 8:20
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area 45:4 48:5 49:24
56:3,13 57:14 58:7
63:20 64:4 73:12
87:1
arguing 37:9
argument 14:14
arm 25:14
Armando 8:14
arms 25:11
Army 9:12,13
arrest 16:20 33:22
36:24 37:9 91:7,9
92:1
arrested 16:8,13 17:1
34:7 36:23 91:13
arrests 17:13,15 92:2
arrived 68:12 69:7
69:21 74:6 75:4
86:24
arrow 71:24
aside 87:22
asked 61:6,7,15 65:6
72:3,4,5 78:7 81:1
asking 6:17 34:3 47:7
84:19
aspirin 19:12
assault 37:1,1 91:9
assume 5:14
ATTACHED 3:13
attention 84:3
attorney 4:14 69:20
August 1:2 8:1
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50:7
awhile 32:2 68:13
a.m 1:15
B
B 3:12

back 24:9 25:21
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33:19 34:19 36:14
42:2 47:11 48:9
49:3 51:10,12 52:16
55:8 57:19 58:9,11
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64:20 66:8,13 68:5
68:8,8 70:14,17
77:13,19,19 78:5,18
79:5,20 80:17 88:3
88:4
background 6:18
28:9
backwards 80:16
bad 32:8,10 37:6
40:23 47:9
Barn 14:10
based 83:9
basically 33:15
begins 92:21
behalf 90:20
behavior 63:18 66:21
68:18 89:23 90:1,9
believe 7:15 8:16
19:2 28:14 32:14
34:6 40:10 43:9
47:20 56:5 65:13
67:9 68:1 70:10,16
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bench 16:23
best 84:18
better 40:21 56:12
birth 6:13,15 7:13,20
birthday 7:14 8:3,3
8:16,20
bit 44:8,12 75:19,24
blinking 73:5
block 54:17
blocking 25:15,16
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blood 19:5,11 25:21
25:22,23 62:19
bones 25:12
boot 32:3,9 33:8,18
34:10 36:13

born 6:22 8:1 15:14
15:15
boys 15:17
branch 9:11
break 54:24 55:1,4
92:18
bringing 81:18
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broke 16:7
broken 25:12
brother 7:24 8:1,19
42:3 52:8 57:4
brothers 7:9,10,16,23
8:13 25:9
brother's 52:14
brought 83:4,8
bucks 13:22
build 36:4
building 12:21 23:18
23:20 35:23 38:20
butter 53:10
buying 46:18
C
C 2:1 76:13 95:1,1
cabinet 58:15
call 37:8 45:3 47:4,5
47:16,19 49:10,12
62:4,5,6 63:3,13,21
63:22 64:14,24 65:3
65:7,24 66:1,8,10
67:3,7,24 92:22
93:11,14,19,23 94:4
called 9:21,22 10:2,3
21:22 35:21 47:15
47:21,24 49:7,17
62:6,8 63:2 65:6
66:4,5 82:24 92:8
calling 63:6 67:10
calls 93:22
calm 48:22 51:3,20
51:24 85:11
camp 32:3,9 33:8,18
34:11 36:13
cancer 8:15
car 48:17,18 50:21
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card 54:21
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carry 12:1
case 4:16 37:2
causation 85:9
caused 83:11 85:19
cell 47:19,21 62:8
center 16:15 44:17
certification 4:3 11:9
35:20
certify 95:7
change 63:18 68:18
changed 10:21
changes 66:21
chapter 85:7
check 40:18
chest 80:6,13
children 15:16 43:16
43:18
cholesterol 19:2,11
Chomar 21:21,22
Christmas 43:24
Church 49:24
cigarette 61:6,7,15
61:16
circle 55:22 71:4,19
76:11,12
circled 56:21 58:7
Citalopram 19:14
City 1:12 2:7 4:14
clarification 70:4
82:14
class 36:2
classes 11:9,12 35:19
clear 76:2 82:3,10
clinic 20:10
close 34:14 49:23
50:2 72:21 75:20
closed 52:5
closest 65:17
clothing 12:7 14:10

coke 38:11
collect 26:21
come 29:4 39:6 48:3
48:17 52:6,9,10
55:16 57:2 59:15
61:17 69:8,9 87:8
coming 64:23 68:2
69:14 73:4 74:7
75:8 87:3
commencing 1:15
committed 8:7
COMMON 1:1
Commonwealth 95:6
company 43:5
compensated 10:6,8
complaint 3:16 83:14
83:15,18,24 84:14
84:17 85:1,2,4
90:19
complete 34:10
completed 8:23 28:13
35:24
completing 36:2
complex 12:23 26:18
compliance 85:5
complies 76:7
concerned 47:13
conclusions 84:16
condition 60:12
67:14 85:23
conduct 16:23
conjunction 85:2
consultation 84:15
contact 48:16
Continue 70:11
continued 61:1
control 87:14
conversation 51:15
cop 70:8
cops 37:8 62:6,7,8
64:23,24 69:15
78:12
corner 53:3,4 58:5,10
75:20
corners 17:10
correct 69:24 82:17
82:18,20,21 90:3

couches 56:21
counsel 2:5,9 4:1
counseling 21:3
24:15
COUNTY 1:1
couple 6:5 42:2
course 55:9 82:9
courses 11:11
court 1:1,21 4:21
33:9,10,11,12,12,14
43:4 54:8 83:19
courts 33:21
crack 72:6
crazy 87:14
cup 61:7,10,12
current 7:3
currently 17:18
27:11
cut 25:21 62:18
C-H-O-M-A-R 21:22

decided 32:8 62:6
64:23 65:3
decision 33:5 63:3,4
defendant 1:8 2:9
81:6 83:4,9
demeanor 63:18
department 1:13 2:7
12:8,21
depicted 55:12
deposition 1:4,10
4:17 82:20,22 86:10
90:7 94:11
depositions 82:2
depressed 24:4 40:12
40:13,19
depression 18:17
22:20,21 23:3,11
24:12,20 26:24
41:22
describe 58:8 59:4
74:12 85:19
D
described 89:23 90:6
D 2:3 3:1
DESCRIPTION 3:13
dad 7:14 48:3,20
desk 92:23
51:19 52:8 57:3,11 detention 16:15
59:11 61:5,6,9,15
diabetic 59:17
61:21 64:7,8 68:6
diagnosed 8:10 22:20
69:8 88:7,7
diagnosis 18:8 22:16
dad's 48:6
23:24 27:3 86:14,17
Damiani 1:11 95:4
difference 9:18
95:24
different 13:12 50:17
date 6:13,15 7:20
66:18
33:12,14,16
difficult 76:10
DATED 95:20
diploma 9:1
dates 7:13
direct 83:13 84:3,10
dating 27:21
directing 82:7
David 7:24
directly 74:19
day 25:3 30:20 45:20 discharged 80:1
47:4,12 52:19 85:18 disciplinary 32:24
85:24 89:24 90:23
discovery 55:9
93:23
disheveled 50:16
days 41:13 46:11
disorder 22:21
death 18:19,21 20:14 disorderly 16:23 17:9
20:19 83:11
17:10
deceased 8:2,2
dispatcher 65:10
December 1:15 8:16
67:23
43:23 95:20
distance 5:21

ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

 CARMELO SANTIAGO
100
doctor 18:7 19:17,20
19:21,22 20:1 21:9
23:10,17 24:5,19,23
doctors 21:17 22:17
23:5,7
doctor's 23:14
doing 13:21 35:6
47:8 59:13 66:1
70:6 74:13 78:13,13
78:24
Donuts 40:1,2,5,6
41:2
door 48:19 52:5,6,15
52:17 62:7 63:5,20
64:4 66:8,10 67:5
69:15
doors 52:13
doorway 87:1,10,16
88:5,8
Double 43:24
Dr 20:3,6,12 21:14
21:15,18 22:3,5,13
drafted 84:13
drain 25:23
drank 38:2
draw 85:2
drawer 53:4 58:4,11
58:17
drawn 69:10 74:14
74:15 77:23
Dress 14:10
drinking 38:8 45:19
drive 45:4
driver's 52:5
driving 48:8
dropped 28:18 34:23
35:15 37:3 39:22
41:12 44:19 45:24
46:2 47:10 50:2,17
drops 52:20
drove 46:15,22 48:6
drug 37:18 38:21
41:10 45:1 46:20
86:14
drugs 38:14 43:11
45:14,16,18 46:18
46:21 50:22 91:14

duly 4:9
Dunkin 40:1,2,5,6
41:1
duty 9:21,22 10:2

E-4 10:22
F

F 95:1
face 59:22
E
factory 13:13,17 35:3
E 2:1,1 3:1,12 95:1
35:3 39:24 41:1,4
Eagles 12:23
42:18
earlier 66:16 88:11
facts 85:3
easier 4:21 71:6
faded 78:16
Eddy 8:20
failed 32:17
edgy 49:2
falling 58:23
Edison 9:4
falls 77:19,19,20,20
education 8:22 9:5
78:5 79:5
28:12
family 6:19 19:16,17
eight 12:10 93:18
19:18,19,22 33:9,10
either 70:2 82:24
33:11 56:3,12 91:10
employed 27:23
far 50:3,4 65:15
employer 43:8
fast 52:18 74:4
employment 26:6,9
father 60:1 62:11
ended 94:11
64:5
entire 7:5 10:19
February 7:21
62:14 94:3
federal 82:11
Episcopal 65:13,14
fell 58:18 80:16,17
65:16 67:11
88:3,3
ERSA 1:21
felt 76:1
ESQUIRE 2:3,4,7
female 73:4 75:3 76:4
estimate 5:20,22
figure 46:24 86:2,3
29:11,13
86:13
estimating 29:14
filed 90:20
eventually 58:24 63:2 filing 4:2
Everybody 85:10
final 5:13
exact 18:8
finally 49:17 52:12
exactly 11:3 35:2
52:15 53:9
44:23 49:21
find 24:4 40:21 50:5
EXAMINATION 1:5
92:9
examined 4:9
fine 8:4 29:12 35:12
excused 94:10
35:13 40:24 85:6
Exhibit 54:7,9 83:17 finger 42:24
83:20,24 96:1 97:1 fire 88:2
expert 89:18
firearm 12:1 74:18
express 31:11
fired 87:24 88:2
extracurriculars
first 4:24 12:5 15:4
33:3
20:17 21:15 29:21
eye 48:15
31:24 32:4 36:16
eyesight 73:17
38:17,22 55:5,15,16
E-1 10:22
56:3 58:2 59:17

63:12,13,15 64:14
65:2,5,7,24 66:7
70:23 72:13 84:13
88:2,16,18,22 89:14
93:4
five 8:18 27:22 37:3
54:24
floods 10:4
floor 1:14 2:8 77:20
77:20 80:17 88:3
follow 5:6
followed 48:3,20
50:14 53:1
follows 4:10
follow-up 53:16
62:10 73:8 91:4
food 27:10
foot 75:24
foregoing 95:7
forget 23:14
forgot 75:16
forks 53:5 58:19
form 4:5 34:1 80:21
81:10,23
forth 55:8 84:17
Forty 14:6
found 26:19 45:7
49:18,20 92:11
four 7:10 15:17 22:3
58:7 76:6
fourth 57:21
frame 17:13
Frankford 21:21
22:6 23:18,19,21
47:23 48:5,6 50:7,8
50:9 63:16
free 20:10
Friday 1:14 40:16
41:13 44:16 47:10
47:14 49:12 50:2
friend 15:7
front 25:22 46:2,16
52:3 55:7 62:7 63:5
63:20 64:4 66:10
full 6:12
fully 5:6,9

ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

 CARMELO SANTIAGO
101
G
gabbing 58:18
gap 26:5,8
GED 35:16
general 18:9 22:24
generally 36:22
Girard 20:8 38:20
41:6,16
girl 37:10
girlfriend 27:17 37:4
37:5,12,14 42:3
49:14 92:6
girlfriends 29:3
girlfriend's 27:19
91:10
girls 15:17
give 5:20 7:12 18:8
47:8 61:8,9
given 86:9
giving 5:22 82:19
glad 49:7,17,18
Glipizide 19:3
go 9:9 18:6 20:17
21:2 24:15 31:18,19
33:7,11 34:19 36:4
36:14 39:6 40:17
41:11 44:21,24 45:6
45:14,24 46:15 49:8
51:11 54:15 57:14
64:23 66:12 83:17
85:7 87:4,19,21
God 51:22,22,23,23
60:17,17,18,19,19
61:24 62:1,1 69:2,2
72:10,11,18,19
76:16 78:24
goes 52:20
going 4:20 5:5,8,14
5:20 6:17,19 12:15
18:8 20:13 22:22
23:1 26:12,19 28:16
29:4 30:22 31:2
33:17,18,24 36:3
37:5,9 38:19 39:9
39:13 44:8 46:7,21
47:3 48:7,24 49:1

49:13,22 51:4,21
53:14 54:4,12 62:9
68:16 70:18 73:7
81:9,23 82:17 83:12
84:3,9,21 85:6,11
92:24 93:3
good 4:13 15:3 30:7
32:8 45:5 62:6
73:17 75:13
gotten 34:6 92:12
grab 58:17,22,24
61:9
grabbed 53:6,10
58:19 63:12
grabbing 53:8
grade 8:22,24 28:14
28:15,17 30:23
32:12,14
grades 32:10,15
graduate 11:20
graduated 8:24 11:7
grandmom 52:23,24
57:18 60:18
grandson 43:22
great 59:19
grew 31:12
ground 4:20 74:22
Guard 9:12,13,16,20
guarding 12:21
guess 33:10 36:4
59:21 76:2 77:15
guessing 29:12,15
guideline 5:5
gun 37:2 73:6 74:14
74:14,20 77:22
78:20 79:12 80:1,3
80:6
guns 69:10,11,11
74:16
gunshot 77:18
guys 31:16 46:5,7,16
51:15
H
H 3:12
Habitat 36:4
Hackney 20:3,6,12

Hancock 15:12
hand 58:24 59:6,7
62:22,24 63:1 69:11
77:22 78:19 79:8,9
79:23
handed 83:23
hands 46:7 48:9,13
79:7 80:8,13
hang 15:7 79:15
hanging 17:10
happen 33:17 48:24
49:1 51:5,21 77:11
happened 24:8 27:18
28:23 32:13 40:16
41:10,13 42:8,17
43:21 44:13,17
46:11 61:14 64:15
66:18 69:6 71:16
74:4,5 76:14 88:1
91:9
happening 73:12
haven 70:24
head 5:2 58:12
health 41:8,19 88:23
88:24 89:17,21
hear 47:13 73:1 79:5
heard 47:1 77:17,18
heart 78:10
held 25:11 39:21
help 32:11 41:22 45:1
62:5 63:2,10,10
64:1,2,3 65:11
67:11 89:9
helpful 55:10 70:7
He'll 43:22
high 9:4,5 11:7,20
19:5,11 38:1,3
highest 8:22 28:12
Hiram 7:24
history 8:8 36:24
91:7
hit 25:10 42:24 77:24
78:7,21,22 81:1,3
hitting 25:15
holding 52:18 60:2,2
61:11 77:21 78:17
home 36:2

homes 36:5
honest 9:19
hospital 64:3 65:13
65:13,14 67:12
hospitalized 25:2
41:24
hour 13:22 14:3
22:12 40:11
hours 14:4
house 15:13 16:1
31:17,21,22 37:13
44:13 47:11 51:12
52:1,4,17,20 53:24
55:5,16,20 56:4
57:2,5,7 65:7
houses 35:23
HOWARD 2:3
Humanity 36:4
hung 64:18 65:2 68:3
hurt 60:13 63:9
Hydroxyzine 18:23
H-A-C-K-N-E-Y
20:5
I
idea 17:12 32:8 37:22
70:1 79:24 80:2
93:9
identification 54:10
83:21
identify 84:6 89:10
89:11
illness 8:8,11 42:1
84:5,7 85:17 86:15
90:17,22
illnesses 25:24 42:11
86:18
immediately 58:2
Impact 35:22
incarcerated 30:1,2
32:1 36:17
incident 6:20 28:4,23
41:15,18 43:14
44:13 82:17 88:9,22
89:1 90:1 91:21
income 27:6,8
inconsistent 90:2,23

ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

 CARMELO SANTIAGO
102
independent 67:21
indicate 56:20,22
indicated 48:12
86:24
indicating 25:17 53:7
58:6 61:11 70:22
71:23 74:21 75:15
80:12
individuals 55:19
infirmity 90:17
influence 37:6
information 53:15
84:6 86:9
injured 42:12
injuries 25:13 43:8
50:15
injury 25:14 42:21
inpatient 39:4
inside 18:2 46:1,13
47:2 57:7
instruction 5:13
instructions 29:11
interested 15:8
interject 29:10
involved 33:21 36:7
involvement 30:5
issues 41:8 86:14

Julie 1:11 95:4,24
jumped 25:9,9 42:6
77:2,10 79:9,22
June 11:1
juvenile 16:11

K
keep 68:20 70:18
Kensington 41:12,17
44:18
kept 31:13 35:9,10
51:3,3,22 60:17,18
61:19,24 65:21 69:1
72:9,17,22 92:10
kids 28:3 31:18,19
38:4 92:14
killed 47:5 63:9
kind 10:11 15:8
31:10 33:21 40:11
41:21 47:13 48:11
49:2 52:10 56:12
66:15 68:6 75:9,17
88:17 92:2,7
kinds 35:18
kitchen 52:22,24
53:2,3 54:2 57:15
57:19,23 58:3 59:10
59:16,24 60:2 63:12
J
63:17 64:7 68:5
69:9,17,18 70:13,19
jab 60:11
70:20 75:7,18 87:1
jail 29:1 37:3
Janelle 20:3
87:4,16,20,21
January 15:15 29:8
knew 37:7,8 45:15
29:18,24 40:4,4
46:7 73:6 77:18
Jesus 69:1,2 72:10,18
81:2
72:18 76:16 90:12
knife 53:6,10,11,11
90:12
53:12 58:19 59:3,4
job 11:8,12 12:15,16
59:5,5 60:3,10
12:18,23 14:7 39:24
61:17,22 62:3,12,14
40:5 42:12,12
62:18,22,24 63:12
jobs 11:23 12:5,20
63:17 64:2,9,10,12
13:3,9,12,24 14:17
64:21 65:11 66:24
39:21 41:1
67:9 69:3 72:24
joined 10:19
76:19 77:4,7
Jose 6:14
knives 53:4
Jr 8:2
know 5:16,19,22 8:9
judge 33:10
8:10 9:18 10:23

left 10:24 12:13 16:7
46:17 57:5 66:7
75:24 76:11
leg 75:18
legal 84:16,19 85:8,9
Let's 83:17
level 28:12
life 7:1,2,5 29:21 30:6
49:4
light 73:5
lips 61:12
Lisinopril 18:15
list 17:22
listen 67:19 93:4 94:2
listened 93:21
listening 61:23 64:22
67:21 72:21,21
little 13:15 30:1 40:3
40:4 44:8,12 62:2
75:19,24 77:12,14
79:3,4
live 15:11,19,21,23
27:11 29:4,7,18
36:14 44:5 50:9
65:15
lived 6:24 7:5 15:12
28:4,8 29:22
liver 8:15
lives 27:14,17 52:13
living 28:19,20,22,24
29:2 30:2,6 31:4
37:11,12 56:3,10,12
57:14 59:14 69:14
71:1,18 73:12
L
located 20:6 21:20
label 76:4
22:5,6
late 17:4,14 25:6
location 42:19
LAW 1:13 2:3,7
locked 48:19 52:6
lawsuit 81:6,13,16,21 long 9:15 12:9 13:19
82:24 83:3,7 84:1
15:23 22:11 24:5
lawsuits 82:16
25:4 26:2 35:24
lawyer 84:12,20
39:19 40:2,6 53:19
lawyers 84:14,15
63:11 68:11 74:1
85:3
87:10
lay 4:20
longer 47:9
leading 26:3
longest 26:5,8
leave 12:11,14 29:5
look 17:23 45:5 50:12
12:7 16:11 18:15
19:1,3,6,9 20:14
26:20 29:24 30:22
31:1,4,18 32:16,17
32:19,20,22,23 33:1
33:2,4,7 34:5,5,8,13
34:22 35:5,9,12,13
35:16,17,18 36:7,20
36:22 37:11 38:1,4
38:6,11,13,22 39:1
39:4,8,8,9,13,19,21
40:9,12,21,24 41:4
41:5,6,18,20,21,23
41:24 42:7,10,16,18
42:20 43:1,3,10,12
43:15 45:2,7,10,12
46:4,12,14,22,24
47:2,3,8 48:5,9,19
48:21,21 49:15 50:5
50:8,10 51:1,2,19
51:19,19 52:3,8,9
53:6 55:13 58:22
59:23 61:22 62:19
64:5,8,11 65:5 70:2
70:5,9,20 71:2 74:7
76:15 77:15,15,17
78:13,15 79:6 80:2
80:23,24 82:2 86:16
86:20 87:5,13 91:6
91:12 92:2,4 93:8
93:10,14
knowledge 85:15
91:13

ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

 CARMELO SANTIAGO
103
50:15,16 70:20
74:13
looked 40:18 48:17
50:13 59:22 68:8
70:23 77:6
looking 24:3 48:9
49:2 51:9 56:15
62:5 73:17 78:14,14
80:23
looks 19:12 21:5
52:22 55:15 57:22
77:23 78:6,22
lot 10:4 11:10 12:20
17:9 30:9 31:5,11
31:13 45:5 50:10
51:1 53:15 55:7
86:9 92:10
love 51:23 52:23,23
57:17,18 60:18,19
62:1 69:2,2
loves 51:22,23,23
60:17,18,18,19
61:24 62:1 69:1,2
72:10,10,18,18,18
76:16,17 90:12,12
low 40:10
lucky 44:2
lunge 77:3
lunged 77:1,8 87:11
Lunt 21:13,17,20
M
M 71:12
machine 54:16
machines 42:23
major 25:19,24 42:1
making 11:2 13:21
13:22 40:9
mall 31:19
man 40:19
manager 14:14
manner 90:23
March 84:4,7 85:16
88:22
Margaret 27:20
Margie 27:20
marijuana 17:7 38:8

38:10 45:19 91:17
92:1
mark 54:6 83:16
marked 3:13 54:9
83:20,24
married 14:19 92:5,6
92:12,13
material 89:6
matter 95:10
McCarthy 69:22
71:12 72:2,11,19
73:16 74:10 75:1
77:21 78:2,4,9,17
81:1
mean 7:8 16:17 19:19
49:4 90:4 92:9
meaning 69:10
meant 73:19
medical 22:23 23:18
24:19,23 27:2 88:17
88:23
medication 18:10,13
24:14
medications 17:19,23
21:6 24:10 43:1,11
meet 15:4,6
Mel 48:22 51:4,19
52:9 60:6,7 61:16
64:9 68:9
members 19:22
mental 8:8,11 41:7
41:19 67:14 84:5,7
85:17 86:15,17
88:24 89:17,20
90:14,17,22
mention 75:16
metal 13:16 42:22
Metformin 19:9
middle 71:17,20
73:13
mine 15:7
minor 25:20
minute 54:24
minutes 22:14 53:21
63:14 65:4,23 66:12
66:19,22 67:1 68:13
68:14,17,21 69:4

74:3
Miriam 7:22 27:14
28:5 57:9,10
mom 52:22 56:6,18
56:18 57:10,17
59:12,17,23
moments 73:3 76:22
month 9:23 10:1,17
11:2 18:19 20:18,23
20:24 21:24 22:4
29:6 31:1 42:7
43:23 89:2,3
monthly 10:14,15,23
months 8:18 12:10
13:20 27:22 32:3
34:10 37:3 40:8
mother 14:24 15:1
28:21 30:3,6 31:4
36:14,20 37:12 44:6
52:21 55:19 92:14
mother's 15:13 16:1
16:2
motion 53:8
move 6:19 16:4,6
59:19 62:10 89:12
moving 51:1 69:13
78:4,21
M-I-R-I-A-M 7:22
N
N 2:1 3:1 71:5 95:1
name 4:13 6:12 7:18
20:4 21:12,15 23:15
24:13 27:19 70:2
named 81:21
names 7:12
narcotics 67:17 92:3
National 9:12,13,15
9:20
nature 84:22
neck 60:10 62:21
need 16:11 64:1,3
65:11
needed 63:10
needs 59:18 67:11
never 12:3 14:20
26:18 37:24,24 38:2

48:10 49:4,5 64:13
news 47:9
newspaper 36:1
Nicoletti 1:7 4:16
69:23 70:10,19 71:2
71:5 72:2,4,5,7,14
73:14,16 74:10,12
77:1,8,19,23,24,24
78:5,8 79:2,9,20
80:5,15 81:5,20
83:5,11 87:11,24
90:20
Nicoletti's 80:1
night 16:15 47:14
49:13
nights 49:9
ninth 28:14,15,17
30:23 32:14
normal 90:2,4,9,14
normally 90:5
North 7:4 15:12
92:23
Notary 1:12 95:5
note 82:6
notes 95:9
notice 63:18
noticed 40:14 82:2
notices 81:24
NovaCare 12:23
26:18
number 3:13 58:7
84:4
O
O 95:1
oath 82:20
object 33:24 81:9,23
83:12 84:9
objection 80:20 82:6
85:21
objections 4:4
observe 62:17
obstructing 73:19
obtained 35:16
obviously 57:11
October 7:22 8:21
offense 16:11

ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

 CARMELO SANTIAGO
104
office 20:7 22:8 26:19
54:16,21 89:12
officer 4:15 69:22,22
71:10,12 73:4,14
74:2,5,8,12 75:1,3,3
75:10 76:4,23,24
77:8,13,19,23 78:6
78:8 79:2,19,24
80:5,15 81:5,20,21
83:5,8,10 86:23
87:11,24 90:20
officers 69:9,20,21
70:2,13 72:1 74:1
90:24
offices 1:12 2:3
oh 40:19,22 50:5 60:7
78:24
okay 4:20,22,23 5:11
5:12,18,23 6:17,20
6:21 10:5,11 11:6
11:11,15 12:4,9
14:4,9 15:11 16:3,8
16:10,20 17:12,18
18:4,10,13,18 19:16
19:19 20:1,11 23:3
23:16 24:10 26:20
28:9,10,11,16 29:12
29:15 30:10 34:8
35:8,13,14 37:17
38:6,13 41:5 43:1,7
44:10,14 45:6 46:9
46:18 48:4,23 50:5
51:4 52:16 53:17
54:14,18,23 55:13
55:14,18 57:6,13
58:17 59:6 60:5,15
60:24 64:17 65:1,23
67:6,21 68:1,11
69:3 70:1,11,18
71:9,16,21 72:7,15
73:9,22 75:3,22
76:21 77:3 78:17
79:11 80:18 81:2,8
83:3,9,17 84:1,2
85:10,12,19 86:7,11
86:20,22 87:15,24
88:9 89:5 91:16

92:5,16 93:6,18
94:2,9
old 16:17 43:18,22
older 7:17
oldest 52:7,14 57:3
Once 20:24 50:21
60:1
open 18:1 58:4,11
operations 92:23
opinion 85:8
ORAL 1:5
orientation 11:13
outpatient 39:7
outside 12:22 46:5
47:22 52:8 56:24
over-the-head 53:8

people 36:5 56:23
57:6
Perez 27:20
person 93:8
personal 85:15
person's 93:5
Philadelphia 1:1,13
1:14,23 2:5,7,8 4:15
6:23,24
phone 30:9,17 31:7
47:19,21 50:6 62:8
63:13 64:14,16,19
65:7,10,24 66:1,3
67:3,7,24 68:7
93:10
Photos 3:15
physical 26:22
P
physician 19:16,18
P 2:1,1
19:19
packet 55:15 57:22
pick 40:17 48:3
70:22
picked 49:20 50:11
page 3:3,13,13 16:16
55:9 63:16
84:3
picture 36:1 54:13,13
paid 36:11
55:15,23 56:11,16
paneling 58:14
56:22 57:20,22 58:1
paragraph 84:4
58:7 70:20,22 71:23
paranoid 48:2,9,10
76:6
48:18 50:13,13,19
pictures 54:4 55:6,7
50:20 51:1,9,18
55:13
52:2,10 90:6
pill 24:12
parents 27:12 28:5
Pittsburgh 34:14,18
parked 52:3
place 12:5 38:20
part 12:1
42:22 44:24 45:4,4
participated 33:2
45:8 46:3,16,20
particular 81:10
47:5 50:1
partner 77:21 78:7
places 13:16
78:22 81:1
plaintiff 1:5 2:5
pass 8:4,6,17
56:21 81:18
passed 8:15 23:5,8,11 Plaza 1:22
24:22 55:8 65:1,24 PLEAS 1:1
pause 57:13
please 5:16 6:12,13
pay 40:23
7:12 48:22 49:1
payment 10:14,15
51:20 54:17 60:6,7
pen 71:4
61:17,18,19,21 64:2
Pennsylvania 1:14,23
65:12,21 67:8,9,10
2:5,8 6:23 34:15
68:9,9,10
95:6
PO 1:7

point 29:9 37:17 43:2
43:13 47:11 51:6,24
52:7 55:22 57:7
60:3 62:3,11,23
63:11,15 64:22
65:10,20 67:14,17
69:13 70:13 71:22
72:10,13,16 73:23
73:24 74:9 75:10,12
75:13 76:3 77:13
78:4,11,20,24 79:7
79:10,19,21 80:9,15
80:18,24 87:4,7,15
87:19,22 88:6,8
pointed 69:16 70:12
pointing 74:18,19
police 4:15 62:4
63:13,21 64:14 67:3
68:11 69:7,8,22,22
81:21 83:8
poorly 79:15
pop 77:17,18 79:5
80:17
Popper 2:3,3 3:7 6:4
18:1 29:9 30:12
33:24 48:12 53:7
54:15,19 61:11
80:12,20 81:9,14,22
82:9 83:12 84:9,12
84:24 85:13,21 86:7
89:13,16 91:2
pound 72:8,8
pow 78:23,23
practically 19:10
practice 12:24
prescribed 21:6
24:15 43:11
prescription 43:10
present 13:2,11
26:12
presented 82:1
presents 44:1
pressing 62:20
pressure 19:5,11
pretty 31:13 32:4
35:22 41:3 48:5
50:8 51:8 52:2,18

ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

 CARMELO SANTIAGO
105
82:23 84:21 85:22
89:6,14 91:4
quiet 31:10,12,12
92:11
quite 10:9 44:8

62:22 65:9 67:20,23
91:8,18 94:1
removed 26:17
repeating 51:22
60:19 61:24 69:1
72:9 76:16 90:13
R
rephrase 5:16 33:6
R 2:1 95:1
79:14 84:23 85:12
radio 92:20
88:21
rain 10:4
report 9:23 10:1
ran 63:12 75:18
reporter 1:11 4:21
range 11:4
54:9 83:20 95:5
ranks 10:21,22
REPORTERS 1:21
rate 10:23
represent 4:15 83:7
reached 58:12
request 54:19 76:8
reaching 53:5
reserve 9:20
really 17:14 31:11,11 reserved 4:6
32:3 35:7 38:4
respond 68:23
40:10 45:15 46:14
responded 69:15
48:10 49:6,15 61:23 responding 5:9 60:21
62:5 70:7 72:21
responds 72:6
92:10
responses 5:1
reason 25:8 26:22
returned 34:18 36:13
33:15 59:15
review 85:1
reasonably 29:13
reviewed 90:21
recall 23:16 24:13
Richard 1:7 2:4 4:15
29:6 34:16 42:19
ride 52:1
61:3 67:13,16 75:5 right 16:18 18:2 21:9
receive 10:13 27:9
21:16 26:23 27:6,17
received 9:1 10:21
28:23 31:6 41:17
22:16 23:24 38:13
43:13,24 46:21
38:17 43:5,8 47:4,5
53:14 55:24 58:4,10
receiving 10:22
59:7 62:24 65:7
recognize 93:5
69:19 71:10,11
recollection 93:22
73:13 76:13,14 78:9
record 6:13 37:7
78:10 81:2,6,17
56:20 58:6 74:21
82:8,17 83:5 87:17
82:6
Road 16:15
Q
recordings 93:4
room 56:3,3,10,12,13
quarter 72:8
refresh 93:21
57:14 59:14 69:14
question 4:5 5:7,10
rehab 38:21
71:1,18 73:12 76:1
5:14,15,15,19 79:14 relation 50:1
rule 4:24
79:16 83:14 85:12
relationship 14:23
rules 4:20
86:5
15:3
runs 52:17,18
questions 6:1,18
relax 49:1
S
28:10 41:14 53:16
remember 10:11
62:10 68:17 73:8
32:12 49:21 56:7
S 2:1 3:12

60:19 66:9 70:21
74:3 77:14 87:5
previous 29:24
previously 91:6
primary 27:6
prison 36:17
probably 9:18 11:17
42:23 45:19 46:7
90:15,18
problem 33:22 37:18
38:7 86:11
problems 24:20,23
29:2 32:24 38:14
45:14,18 92:7
produced 89:7
professional 1:11
24:19,23 27:2 88:17
88:24,24 95:5
program 39:5
provider 41:19
psychiatrist 21:10,11
21:14 24:19 27:4
Public 1:12 95:5
puffed 25:15
pulled 52:3
pulling 58:12
pushed 75:17,24
pushing 80:13
put 32:8 54:21 58:20
60:10 61:17,20,22
62:3,12 64:9,10,11
64:21 66:24 68:9
69:3 71:5,12 76:5
76:13 77:7 79:8,8
79:23 84:16
putting 80:12
p.m 94:11

safe 51:21
sake 70:4
salary 10:12
Santiago 1:4,7 3:4
4:8 6:14 7:14,19,22
7:24 8:14,20 89:17
sat 53:2,3 75:23
Saturday 44:9 47:14
saw 30:10 31:15 44:7
46:10,15 48:11,16
50:11 57:5,17 59:20
63:15 64:20 69:8,9
73:5 75:7,8 76:18
77:3,6 88:16
saying 4:22 5:11 13:1
40:19 60:17,22 70:6
72:22 90:12
says 52:23 70:8 72:7
77:24 78:8,8,23
84:4
scared 48:11 51:2
59:23
scary 49:6
school 9:4,6 11:7,20
28:16 30:22 32:7,21
32:24 33:3 34:19
35:15 39:22,23
44:10
screaming 78:11,12
scuffle 77:12,14 79:3
79:4
scuffling 79:6
sealing 4:2
seated 55:19,23
seating 56:8
second 5:5 53:15
56:22 64:24 66:1
67:3,7,10,24 69:19
73:7 79:15
Seconds 87:12
security 11:10,16,23
12:2,5,17,17,18
13:3,12,23
see 20:15,22 21:2
22:1,2,10 23:16
24:23 30:7 38:3
46:9,23 47:12 58:1

ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

 CARMELO SANTIAGO
106
62:19,20,21 63:5,7
69:14 71:22 72:1
73:3,5,14,15,16,22
73:24 74:9 75:13,19
76:15,22 77:11,13
78:15 79:1,20,21
80:8 87:23 88:8
89:9 90:11
seeing 19:17,20,23
20:1,11,16,20 21:9
21:17,23 23:4
seen 23:7,10 24:18
38:1 49:5,5 74:7
77:7 79:8,22,22
selling 46:21
send 33:18 64:2,17
65:6,12,21 67:8
sense 5:17
September 7:15
serve 9:15
service 9:7,8,9,11
11:7
session 21:3
sessions 22:11 24:16
set 68:16
settlement 43:4,6
shakes 5:1
shitty 40:23
shocked 92:8
Shoffel 2:7 3:6,8 4:12
4:14 6:9 18:4,5
29:17 30:14,15 34:2
34:4 48:14 49:19
53:13 54:6,11,18,23
55:3 61:13 76:9
80:14 81:4,12,16,19
82:5,13,15 83:16,22
84:11,23 85:10,14
86:1,8 89:15 90:7
91:3,5 92:16,20
93:2 94:6
shook 46:6
SHORE 2:4
short 55:1 92:18
shot 78:2,9 80:3,5,19
90:24
show 54:4 70:21

showed 74:2
siblings 7:7
side 52:5 70:24,24
75:11,11 78:10
signing 4:2
Simvastatin 19:6
sink 53:3
sip 61:10
sir 4:13 18:6 54:12
55:4 83:23 85:15
91:6 93:3
sister 7:17,21 27:14
56:5 57:8,10 59:12
59:20,22
sisters 7:9,11,16
sister-in-law 52:7,13
92:11
site 26:18
sitting 46:12 52:21
55:24 56:18,18
57:17 58:5,9,10
59:14 78:3,5
situation 66:15
six 13:20,22 93:13
skip 57:20
slid 52:4 75:24
small 28:3 59:5
sober 38:3
sofa 52:21 55:24
somebody 65:6 90:11
someone's 51:2
son 14:21 15:15
21:24 23:5,8,11
24:22 28:8,10 31:10
37:11,17 44:17 47:4
47:7,9 54:13 55:5
57:13 60:2 64:1
65:11 67:8,10 72:6
72:9,11,17,17,23,24
73:22,24 74:17,18
75:13,14,21 76:3,15
77:1,2,4,4,6,6,14,15
77:21,23 78:2,3,5,9
78:14,14,15,19,20
79:2,7,21,22,23
80:4,24 85:16,23
86:10 87:7,11,23

88:8,13 89:24 90:22
92:5,10 93:23
son's 18:19,20 20:14
20:18 61:12 80:8
83:11 91:7
sorry 15:18 25:20
40:23 58:6 79:14
88:21
sort 10:3 11:9 43:4,5
sought 41:7,21
sounded 48:2
sounds 13:1 33:20
36:3 43:7 60:20
source 27:6
South 1:22 2:4
speak 21:3,4 30:16
88:23
speaking 60:20 75:6
75:6
specialized 11:8
specifically 31:1
45:13 65:9
spell 20:4
spend 49:13
spent 16:14 36:17
37:3
spoke 30:8 31:7
37:24
spoons 53:5
spotted 48:8
SSI 27:9
stabbed 42:2,5,6
stamps 27:10
stand 52:16 70:13,17
standing 46:5 56:8,9
56:17 71:7,10,13,14
71:17,19,20,24
72:20 73:11 75:8,10
75:11 87:10,22,23
start 5:7 6:2,17 11:15
18:18 20:11,16
21:23 27:21 28:22
35:1 41:15 92:24
started 11:17,22 12:4
18:13 23:4 28:24
34:23,24 35:2 37:21
38:5 51:22 66:10

state 6:12 16:15
85:23 90:2,4,14
stay 10:18 31:17,21
39:5
steak 53:11,12 59:5,5
60:3
stenographic 95:9
Stephanie 21:13,17
21:20 22:2,10,11
stick 40:21
stipend 10:12
stood 59:20,23 64:7
66:8 68:6,6 77:21
87:6
stop 26:16 28:16
53:14 57:13 62:9
69:19 73:7
stopped 30:22 31:2
store 12:7,8 14:10,15
stores 12:21
straight 50:9 51:12
53:24 57:14,16,19
street 1:13,22 2:4,8
7:4 23:19 29:5 48:7
49:23,24 51:13
90:12 92:24
struggle 79:1,4 80:9
struggling 79:12,18
stuff 11:13 12:22
17:10 20:13 27:5
31:8,13,19 32:5,10
33:18 35:4 36:5
37:7,10 38:2,4 45:1
45:16 46:7 51:10
58:13,18 72:9
subjects 32:18
substance 86:11,15
86:16
substances 38:6,9
sued 43:7
suffered 84:5 90:16
suffering 84:7 85:16
sugar 19:11
suggested 33:7
suicide 8:7,11
Suite 1:22 2:4
Sunday 40:16 47:14

ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

 CARMELO SANTIAGO
107
47:16
supposedly 37:1
92:12
sure 5:4,22 8:3 10:9
11:3 17:24 19:8,15
21:14 23:19 31:3
34:9 35:2,24 36:9
36:18,18 38:19,24
39:11,20 42:14,22
43:3 45:9 49:22
56:9 68:15 70:16
89:15 91:19
surgeries 25:19 42:11
suspended 32:20
sustains 85:9
sweater 52:19,21
sworn 4:9
T
T 3:12 76:5 95:1,1
table 71:7,15 75:16
75:17,18
take 4:22 5:2,10 11:9
11:11 25:21 44:20
45:20 54:23
taken 1:10 4:17
18:20 55:2 92:19
95:9
talk 31:17 37:23
41:15 44:12 51:15
61:1 64:6,21 66:13
68:20
talked 31:5 88:10
91:6
talking 18:16 52:12
52:14 61:5 62:11
68:24 72:14,16,22
72:23 73:2 74:1
tape 92:21 93:13
tapes 67:19 89:7,11
taser 73:4,5,6 74:2,6
74:8 75:4,11 76:5
86:23
teacher's 28:2
telephone 92:22
tell 13:15 24:2 27:2
31:9 32:3 35:10,13

39:16 40:22 44:23
45:13 46:14 47:6,24
49:12 50:6,22 51:8
56:15 59:21 61:22
63:24 64:15 65:16
65:19 67:6 69:6
70:5 79:11,17 80:5
80:7 83:9 86:2 93:4
telling 40:19 44:22
48:2,19 51:3 52:9
52:16 55:5 61:19
64:9 65:21 68:9
72:14
tells 18:2 72:11,19
77:24
ten 17:15 94:3
TERM 1:2
terminated 12:11
14:7,13,16
terms 22:23
testified 4:9 90:1
testify 83:1
testimony 82:20
Thank 30:14 48:14
86:20
Thanks 94:8
theories 84:20
therapist 21:12,13
22:2
therapy 24:15 88:11
thing 6:5 25:20 35:21
36:10,12 39:7 41:3
41:10 43:4 61:4
66:9 77:17 78:15
88:1 94:3
things 5:21 31:11,16
35:10 41:22 58:23
58:23 88:11 90:6,13
think 10:16 28:18
34:14,15,22 36:12
39:11 41:11 42:14
46:18 47:21,21 51:6
57:21 69:20 70:4
71:5 83:10 86:4
89:5,10 90:13 91:8
Thirteen 9:17
Thomas 9:4

thought 55:10 83:6
three 16:23 26:12,13
32:2 34:10 40:8
84:4 91:19,21 93:22
throat 62:14,16 64:2
65:12 72:24 76:19
77:5
thumb 42:24
tight 76:2
time 4:6 5:21 10:18
10:24 11:6,22 16:14
17:1,12 25:4,22
26:14 27:18 28:4,8
28:20 29:21 31:3,24
32:5 35:21 36:16,17
36:23 37:5 38:17,22
39:1 41:9 44:7
45:18,20 46:10
47:16 50:17 54:8
55:1 62:15,17 63:15
63:16 64:6,11,24
65:1,2,2,5 66:2,4,5
66:8 67:10 76:7,20
80:3 83:19 88:16,18
88:23 92:18
times 10:2 41:7 42:2
68:7 78:2
today 46:12,24 82:1
82:20
told 15:8 21:16 23:3
23:4,20 29:3 32:10
33:17 39:14,15
40:11,14,15 41:2,5
41:18 46:22 48:3,4
48:22,24 50:10
51:14 60:6 61:1
64:1 65:5,10,14
66:16 67:9,13,16,23
69:16 79:21 83:10
87:22 91:7 92:8
track 32:11 33:16,19
93:1,13,18 94:3
training 11:8 35:19
89:20
transcript 1:10 4:3
95:8
translate 6:7

treat 24:5
treated 19:21
treatment 38:14,18
39:17 41:6,7,16,17
44:17,21 46:13
treatments 88:11
trial 4:6
trick 55:11
tried 58:22 61:21,22
64:5
trouble 32:5,7 37:7
truancy 34:1
truck 48:6 52:4,11
53:19,24
true 85:4 95:8
try 5:8 66:13
trying 46:24 51:3
55:10 62:2 64:21
68:20 86:1,3,13
turn 56:11
turned 54:5
turning 44:3
turns 78:6,22
twice 78:9
two 7:10 8:13 11:3
15:17,17 21:16 22:2
22:10 25:9 26:20
39:11 40:8 41:13
43:16 46:11 49:9
52:13 54:17 69:9,20
69:21 72:1 78:2
80:13 81:14 82:16
91:3,19,21
two-by-four 25:10
type 13:8 14:23 30:5
35:6 38:6 42:20
types 13:12 31:15
45:17
U
uh-huh 6:6,6,7
Um-hmm 15:2 18:24
23:6 29:16 30:11
36:3 53:18 60:14
66:6,17 67:22 73:10
85:13 86:12
unable 26:23 27:3

ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

 CARMELO SANTIAGO
108
uncle 42:4
understand 5:1,3,15
10:5 16:18 18:7
19:20 22:22,24 34:2
37:17 67:20 76:10
80:18 81:5,20 82:16
82:19,22 83:1,2,3
87:15 88:9
understanding 18:9
18:12 22:15,24
23:23 37:20 45:17
73:11 90:22
understood 5:14 6:10
9:24 82:13
Unemployment
26:10
United 1:22
unlock 52:15
unlocks 52:17
use 68:7
usually 22:14 49:10
V
various 12:20
verbalize 4:24
verification 85:5
verified 83:15 84:17
85:3
verse 85:7
view 56:12 57:22
73:20 76:2
vision 75:13
visualize 87:7
voice 93:5,6,14,16,19
voices 89:10,11
voluntarily 12:12,13
volunteer 36:10,12
vs 1:6
W
wait 5:6,9
waived 4:4
walk 59:18,18 67:4
walked 14:15 59:24
62:7 63:4 64:20
67:5 68:7,8 75:5,9
75:12 87:2,3

walker 59:19
walking 48:8 52:18
52:22 57:16 66:10
75:7
want 17:23 18:6,8
22:23 28:9 29:10
44:12,24 52:6,10
53:16 60:9,10 61:9
63:5,7,8,10 64:3
65:12 67:11,20 72:4
72:5,6,8,16 73:8
82:3,10 83:9 84:24
89:9
wanted 33:16 41:11
44:21 45:6,13 47:8
63:10 86:20
warn 54:12
warrants 16:24
wasn't 13:4 27:18
29:4 31:4 45:3
61:23 64:22 78:3,20
79:3 90:9
watch 59:8
water 61:7,8
waved 48:16
waving 48:13
way 5:17 31:12 46:20
50:10 51:9 55:10
86:4,5
weapon 88:1
week 14:4 30:21
weekend 9:23 10:1
30:8,10 40:17
weekends 30:8 31:15
weeks 22:3,3,10
26:20 39:11
welfare 27:10
went 9:7 10:22 20:14
23:16 24:9 26:20,21
28:14 33:10 34:23
39:10,19 40:17 41:9
41:10,19 43:4 45:2
46:4,13 47:2 51:12
52:24 53:2,24 54:2
57:5,16,18 58:2
60:8 61:8 63:20
64:4 66:8 68:5,7

70:19 72:3 87:14
88:3,20,23
we'll 64:17 67:19
we're 4:22 5:11 6:19
9:22 16:16 22:23
33:17 58:20 81:24
92:24
whatsoever 89:21
whew 16:21 49:7
73:2
wife 52:14 57:4
Winans 84:5 89:24
witness 3:3 29:16
30:13 48:15 53:9
76:7 80:22 81:15
94:9,10
woman 92:13
women's 14:10
wondering 73:2
wood 58:14,16
word 40:23
worded 79:15
work 9:21 11:12 12:2
12:9 13:13,17 14:5
24:3,4,9 26:2,19,23
27:3 32:7 34:23
35:3,6 36:11 39:24
40:2 41:1,4 43:8
worked 12:6,19,22
26:14
working 11:15,23
12:4 13:2,8,12,23
26:16 34:24 35:1,3
35:6,22 40:6 42:16
42:23
works 28:2 35:4
worried 49:9,16
worry 40:20
write 76:10
wrong 23:24 72:3
X
X 3:1,12 71:23
Y
YATVIN 2:3
yeah 10:16 11:5,24

16:19 17:2 18:17
19:13,15 21:1 24:12
25:14 27:4 31:7,23
36:6 37:10,15 42:6
44:2 51:8 60:6 63:4
64:7 67:5 74:23
80:10 81:15
year 9:9 10:12 11:19
14:11 15:24 16:3
24:7,8,11 26:4 29:6
31:2 32:4 34:16
36:7,9,18 38:19
39:1,8 42:7,14
years 9:17 10:19
13:17 16:17 17:13
17:16 26:12,13
43:22 91:19,21
yelling 78:12,12
younger 7:21 13:14
16:12 57:10
youngest 27:15
Youth 35:22
$
$10.15 14:1,2
$5 40:11
1
1 3:15 54:7,9 96:1
1/26/62 6:16
1:00 45:22 47:17
10 7:21 43:19,20 44:3
53:21 65:4,23 66:12
66:19,22 67:1
10:14 1:15
11 42:15
12 43:19,22
12th 8:24
12:14 94:11
12:30 47:17
1210 15:12
13 10:19 43:20,22
44:3 84:4,8 85:16
14 1:15
14th 1:13 2:8
15 22:14 53:21 63:14
74:3

ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429

 CARMELO SANTIAGO
109
1515 1:13 2:8
1520 1:22
16 8:21
16th 7:15
17th 1:22
1734 7:4 92:23
18 11:17 16:17
19 11:18
19102 2:5,8
19103 1:23
1957 8:1
1958 8:16
1960 7:21
1965 7:22
1967 8:21
1980 15:5
1981 11:21 13:2
1982 15:15
1985 10:19
1986 13:6,11
1989 8:5
2
2 3:16 83:17,20,24
97:1
2:00 45:23
2:29 92:22
20 22:14 63:14 65:4
65:23 66:12,19,22
67:1 68:13,14,17,21
69:4 74:3
20th 43:23
200 11:4
2000 34:17
2007 23:14,23 24:18
26:2,3 88:20
2008 91:23
2009 26:15,16 91:23
2010 42:15
2011 1:2 29:18,24
42:9 84:5,8 85:16
88:22
2012 1:15 95:20
2034 1:2
215)564-1233 1:23
22 8:16
220 10:17

230 2:4
26 7:22
28 95:20
3
3rd 7:4 20:8 51:12
92:23
3/13/11 92:21
30 1:22
4
4 3:6
5
503 2:4
54 3:15
6
6 15:15
69th 23:19 48:7
49:23
7
7th 38:20 40:4 41:6
41:16
79 15:5
8
8 8:1
80 15:5,22
80s 17:4,4,14 25:6
81 13:5 15:22 16:21
83 3:16
84 9:10
86 13:5
87 25:6
88 13:18
89 3:7
9
91 3:8
911 63:22 65:2 89:7
93:19,22,23 94:4
96 3:15
97 3:16
99 14:12 34:17

ELECTRONIC REPORTING STENOGRAPHIC AFFILIATES

Case ID: 110802034
Control No.: 13060429