NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD Office of Aviation Safety Washington, D.C. 20594 March 17. 2016 Attachment 2 – FXE Interview Transcripts OPERATIONAL FACTORS CEN16MA036 1 ATTACHMENT 2 CEN16MA036 Contents PDF page Execuflight Pilot Interview 3/466 Execuflight Chief Pilot Interview 73/466 Execuflight Sales Agent Interview 164/466 Execuflight President Interview 201/466 Execuflight Pilot Interview 281/466 Former Execuflight Pilot Interview 312/466 Execuflight Sales Agent Interview 367/466 Former Director of Operations Interview 395/466 ATTACHMENT 2 CEN16MA036 1 NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD -----------------------------: IN RE: : : THE EXECUFLIGHT HAWKER : ACCIDENT THAT OCCURRED IN : AKRON, OHIO ON NOVEMBER 10, : 2015 : : -----------------------------: NTSB Accident No. CEN16MA036 INTERVIEW OF: NABIL ZITOUNI Wednesday, December 2, 2015 Banyon Aviation Ft. Lauderdale Executive Airport Ft. Lauderdale, Florida BEFORE DAVID LAWRENCE, Investigator, NTSB SEAN ETCHER, Investigator, NTSB NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Interviewee: CHRISTOPHER JAHR, ESQ. Wicker Smith O'Hara McCoy & Ford P.A. SunTrust Center 515 East Las Olas Boulevard, Suite 1400 Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 Tel.: (954) Fax: (954) On Behalf of ExecuFlight: DONNIE SHACKLEFORD On Behalf of the Federal Aviation Administration: JOHN DRAGO* *Present by teleconference NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 3 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1 (Time not disclosed) 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 All right. Okay. I'm going to put this 4 here. Good morning. My name is Captain 5 David Lawrence, and I'm an investigator from the 6 National Transportation Safety Board. 7 Operations Group chairman for the ExecuFlight Hawker 8 accident that occurred in Akron, Ohio last month. I'm the My role here is to learn what I can about 9 10 the accident so I can assist in the investigation, and 11 hopefully we can prevent this from reoccurring again. 12 As part of our process, we invite parties to 13 participate in the investigation to provide us 14 technical expertise. For this particular group, we have myself, 15 16 the NTSB, Sean Etcher with the NTSB. 17 Operations Group investigator. 18 Textron, and the FAA. 19 around the room and have everybody introduce themselves 20 and provide what their affiliation is. 22 Good morning. Sean? I'm Sean Etcher with the NTSB. MR. JAHR: 23 24 We have ExecuFlight, Right now, I'll just kind of go MR. ETCHER: 21 He's an I'm Christopher Jahr with the Wicker Smith Law Firm. MR. SHACKLEFORD: 25 Donnie Shackleford, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 4 1 Captain of the Hawker for ExecuFlight. 2 MR. ZITOUNI: 3 of Hawker, ExecuFlight. Nabil Zitouni, First Officer 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 5 MR. DRAGO: On the phone? Yes, John Drago with the FAA. 6 I'm an operations inspector, and my role here is 7 certainly to support the NTSB in determining a cause of 8 the accident. MR. LAWRENCE: 9 Great, thank you very much, 10 John. Even though we talked about this earlier, and 11 you're welcome to have one representative of your 12 choice. Is Chris who you choose? 13 MR. ZITOUNI: 14 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. Okay, great. As part of this 15 process, I'm going to record the interview. We'll have 16 a transcription made later that will eventually become 17 part of the factual record. 18 of the docket, the public docket. 19 that's about it. The audio will not be part Right now, really, Do you have any questions, Nabil? 20 MR. ZITOUNI: 21 MR. LAWRENCE: No, sir. Okay. Couple of things. I'm 22 just going to take a few notes as we type, okay? 23 apologize if I ask a question and I, we're not making 24 eye contact. MR. ZITOUNI: 25 So I You do what you have to do. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 5 MR. LAWRENCE: 1 I got it. 2 much. 3 ask, you know, ask me to repeat it. 4 MR. ZITOUNI: 5 MR. LAWRENCE: Thank you very And so if you don't understand a question that I Okay? I will. There is, you know, we're 6 trying to be as transparent as possible, and I'm not 7 trying to, you know, trip anybody up. 8 to learn from you, and since this accident occurred and 9 you're one of the pilots that obviously flew with one 10 of the crew members and flew the accident airplane or 11 Hawker series, that's why we want to talk to you. 12 Because we want to learn from you. 13 MR. ZITOUNI: 14 MR. LAWRENCE: 15 I'm just trying Okay. Okay. Great. Any questions, Nabil? 16 MR. ZITOUNI: 17 MR. LAWRENCE: No, not really. Great. If I can get your, 18 just standard stuff to start with. 19 full name and your age. 20 MR. ZITOUNI: 21 MR. LAWRENCE: 22 MR. ZITOUNI: 23 MR. LAWRENCE: If I can get your Nabil Zitouni. Can you spell it? And 55 years old. Okay. If you could spell it, 24 because we have a tape, so that -- 25 MR. ZITOUNI: N-A-B-I-L, Z-I-T-O-U-N-I. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 6 MR. LAWRENCE: 1 2 years old. 3 ExecuFlight? 5 First Officer on the Hawker series. 6 MR. LAWRENCE: 7 when were you hired at ExecuFlight? 8 MR. ZITOUNI: 9 MR. LAWRENCE: 10 questions. 11 hold? MR. LAWRENCE: MR. ZITOUNI: 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 MR. ZITOUNI: In about 2013. In 2013. Great. Standard I have a ATP, I have a type Okay. And medical First Class. Limitations? Glasses. I need to wear glasses and that's it. 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 MR. ZITOUNI: Yes. And it's not valid for any 22 other, when it expires, I can go into Second Class 23 because I have a letter of authorization. MR. LAWRENCE: 24 25 And certificate? 16 19 Great. rating in a Westwind, and a SIC 135 Hawker 700, 800. 14 15 Hawker series. What certificates and type ratings do you MR. ZITOUNI: 12 13 Fifty-five And what's your current title with MR. ZITOUNI: 4 Okay, great. Okay. Is it reverted to a Second Class right now? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 7 1 MR. ZITOUNI: 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. ZITOUNI: 4 MR. JAHR: I always keep a issuance, I think. MR. ZITOUNI: 8 wear corrective lenses. 9 it expires. MR. LAWRENCE: 10 Yes, special issuance. Must Not valid for any class after Got it. Okay. Great. And what, and what aircraft do you fly for ExecuFlight? 12 MR. ZITOUNI: 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 MR. ZITOUNI: 15 MR. LAWRENCE: 16 No, no, no. But that, we'd consider a special 7 11 Okay. First Class, but if I find it. 5 6 No. type. You want the tail numbers? Just the types. Hawker 800 and Hawker 700. Okay. You have a Westwind Do you fly the Westwind? 17 MR. ZITOUNI: 18 MR. LAWRENCE: No, not anymore. Okay. Okay. Nabil, this is, 19 just, estimate it, as far as flight time, because we 20 always ask pilots, generally what is your flight time. 21 So this doesn't have to be, you know your flight -- 22 MR. ZITOUNI: 23 MR. LAWRENCE: 24 MR. ZITOUNI: 25 MR. LAWRENCE: Around 6,800. Okay, 6,800 total time? Yes. How much time in the Hawker NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 8 1 series? 2 MR. ZITOUNI: 3 MR. LAWRENCE: 4 MR. ZITOUNI: 6 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. ZITOUNI: Okay, so roughly half the Maybe more. Maybe like two thirds. MR. LAWRENCE: 10 11 I'd say about 300 on the 700. time. 8 9 And of that 500, on the Dash 700, how much? 5 7 About 500. Okay. Great. So, and how long have you been flying the Hawker? 12 MR. ZITOUNI: 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 MR. ZITOUNI: 15 MR. LAWRENCE: Since January of this year. That's when you were typed? Yes. Great. And I always ask the 16 guys their background, so what I want is, you know, 17 just a CliffsNotes version of your background. 18 how you came to become flying with ExecuFlight. 19 MR. ZITOUNI: 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 Tell me Oh. Just a short, condensed version of Nabil's flying time, your experience. MR. ZITOUNI: 22 Well, I was a flight 23 instructor for many years. That's how I started. 24 did ferry flights for an airplane broker, South 25 Carolina. I And I started flying a 135 with the King Air NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 9 1 200. And then I went to a Westwind in 2005. 2 job due to a medical condition in 2011. 3 from 2011 to 2013. 4 their Westwind. I didn't fly I got hired by ExecuFlight to fly 5 MR. LAWRENCE: 6 MR. ZITOUNI: 7 I lost my Good. And then, now I'm upgrading to the Hawker. 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 Great condensed version. Great. Great. Appreciate it. Thanks. My understand 10 was that you had had the opportunity to fly with Oscar 11 on occasion. 12 MR. ZITOUNI: 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 Yes. Okay. How often did you fly with him? MR. ZITOUNI: 15 Only flew the empty legs, good 16 weather, from the right seat. 17 reposition, or when we had a new passenger. 18 fly with passenger on board. 19 legs. 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 MR. ZITOUNI: 22 MR. LAWRENCE: 23 I didn't Only empty, repositioned Why is that? For safety, I guess. Was that his choice, or is that a company procedure? MR. ZITOUNI: 24 25 So it depend, when we It's more like your company procedure. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 10 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. ZITOUNI: 3 MR. LAWRENCE: It's the company's? Yes. Okay. Okay. Is it written 4 anywhere that the First Officers don't fly with 5 passengers on board? 6 MR. ZITOUNI: 7 MR. LAWRENCE: 8 MR. ZITOUNI: MR. LAWRENCE: MR. ZITOUNI: MR. LAWRENCE: 16 MR. ZITOUNI: 17 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. ZITOUNI: Do you recall the last Yes, sir. It was November 10, November 3rd? Ten. Tenth. All right. 2015, Yes. Two days before the crash. MR. LAWRENCE: 21 22 Okay. this year? 19 20 I'd a Sunday, November 10, 2015. 15 18 At first, quite a bit. time? 13 14 How often did you and say I did probably 70 percent of those flights. 11 12 Okay. Oscar have an opportunity to fly together? 9 10 No. Okay. Did you fly with him in the Westwind? 23 MR. ZITOUNI: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 MR. ZITOUNI: No. I'm sorry, the Hawker? The Hawker. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 11 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. ZITOUNI: 3 MR. LAWRENCE: Okay. The 227 Whiskey Romeo. Okay. Okay. Just, in your 4 own words, can you kind of describe him as a pilot, you 5 know, tell me what he was like to fly with, his skills 6 and how he was, he handled his cockpit as Captain? MR. ZITOUNI: 7 8 (inaudible). I mean -- MR. LAWRENCE: 9 But he was just like your 10 MR. ZITOUNI: 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 MR. ZITOUNI: I'm sorry? Just like your regular pilot. Regular pilot. But he did all his checks, his 13 checklist, use a checklist, briefing, just a standard 14 pilot. 15 plane, and he could land that plane. 16 steady on his landings. He knew quite a bit about the system of the MR. LAWRENCE: 17 18 Okay. He was pretty Did you ever have an opportunity to fly in bad weather with him? 19 MR. ZITOUNI: 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 MR. ZITOUNI: Yes. Describe that. Flew, the last one I remember, 22 we flew an ILS into PDK. 23 MR. LAWRENCE: 24 MR. ZITOUNI: 25 MR. LAWRENCE: Oh, Peachtree? Where? PDK. Peachtree -- NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 12 1 MR. ZITOUNI: 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. ZITOUNI: -- DeKalb in Atlanta. Okay. And we just, it was just a 4 routine ILS. 5 sight, there was no issues. MR. LAWRENCE: 6 7 We brought down 800 feet, runway in MR. ZITOUNI: 9 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. ZITOUNI: 12 coming back from Denver. 13 closed. 14 was at night. 15 standard procedure. Can you, do you recall the Yes, it was in Macon, Georgia, And something, the tower was It was Macon, Georgia, so it was closed, it And no issues, something. Just a Everything was normal. MR. LAWRENCE: 16 Do you recall what kind of approach that was? MR. ZITOUNI: 18 19 Yes. last time? 11 17 Did you ever shoot a, or conduct a non-precision approach with Oscar? 8 10 Okay. I think it was a GPS. sure, but I think it was a GPS. 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 MR. ZITOUNI: 22 me a break or something. 23 MR. LAWRENCE: I'm not A GPS approach. Okay. I can look it up if you give I can look into it. No, that's okay. That's 24 okay. Now, I'm at a little disadvantage here because 25 I've asked for the SOPs, but I haven't received those NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 13 1 from the company, so for a GPS approach in the Hawker - 2 - 3 MR. ZITOUNI: 4 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes, sir. Is that a step-down approach? 5 In other words, you are flying it by GPS, but 6 laterally, but vertically you do step-downs in descent? 7 MR. ZITOUNI: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 Okay. Yes. So that's what you did that night in Macon, Georgia? MR. ZITOUNI: 10 11 Yes. Yes. Just, as you pass a re- fix in the setup (inaudible). MR. LAWRENCE: 12 All right. I'll ask a little 13 bit more about the non-precision approach procedures 14 later, but I want to come back to when he flew all of 15 the legs with passengers. 16 MR. ZITOUNI: 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 MR. ZITOUNI: 19 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes, sir. Or the Captain would. Yes, sir. Did Oscar also? Was he one 20 of the ones that would also adhere to that, where he 21 flew all the legs with passengers, and you would only 22 fly the empty legs or return legs? 23 MR. ZITOUNI: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Yes, sir. Okay. So, if you can estimate how many times you got to land the airplane as NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 14 1 First Officer, I mean, maybe like 10 percent of the 2 time? 3 trying to figure out how many times you're actually 4 flying the airplane versus Oscar flying the airplane. 20 percent of the time? 5 MR. JAHR: 6 MR. ZITOUNI: 7 MR. JAHR: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 Just a guestimate. I mean, I wouldn't know. Twenty-five percent? I wouldn't say -- it'd be -That's your guess. No, he can't answer for you, but -- 10 MR. JAHR: 11 MR. ZITOUNI: 12 Yes, about 25 percent of the time. Yes. MR. LAWRENCE: 13 No, I was just looking at him. Okay, so about 20, a quarter 14 of the time, you're flying the airplane empty. 15 can -- with an opportunity for you to -- 16 MR. ZITOUNI: 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 MR. ZITOUNI: 19 I'm So you Yes. Okay. I mean, because it's not good to fly empty. MR. LAWRENCE: 20 All right. 21 any other Captains at ExecuFlight? 22 thing? Yes. Okay. Did you fly with Was it the same You've got to say it because -- 23 MR. ZITOUNI: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 MR. ZITOUNI: Oh. Donnie Shackleford. Okay. And Rich Rivudo. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 15 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. ZITOUNI: 3 MR. LAWRENCE: 4 MR. ZITOUNI: 5 that's all my Captains. MR. LAWRENCE: 6 Okay. Did Rich -- And Danny Lewkowicz. Okay. All on the Hawker? On a Hawker. I flew all, yes, All right. Was this a 7 similar procedure, or process, where they would fly all 8 of the -MR. ZITOUNI: 9 10 MR. LAWRENCE: 11 MR. ZITOUNI: 12 MR. LAWRENCE: 13 Oh, yes. Passenger -Yes. That would be, yes. Okay. So what Oscar was doing was just the standard -- 14 MR. ZITOUNI: 15 with Donnie, and Danny. MR. LAWRENCE: 16 17 Yes. Yes. Okay. Yes. Did it with Rich, Great. Did you and Oscar ever talk to each other outside of work? 18 MR. ZITOUNI: 19 MR. LAWRENCE: 20 MR. ZITOUNI: Yes. Okay. Oh, yes. Tell me about that. Well, you know, I mean, you're 21 a captain, you know. But we, when we didn't fly, we 22 went to hotels together, we ate together. 23 regular stuff. 24 tell you? So you, I don't, what do you want me to What we talked about or? MR. LAWRENCE: 25 I mean, Well, I'm curious if, did any NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 16 1 of your conversations, did Oscar ever have any concerns 2 going on in his family, his friends? 3 concerns? MR. ZITOUNI: 4 Did he have any No, he was very in love with 5 his son. That was, he live in Colombia. 6 loved that kid. 7 the kid would come here or he would go there to visit. 8 No, nothing that I'm aware of. 10 But he saw him quite often, because MR. LAWRENCE: 9 I mean, he Okay. Did he express any concerns about the company? MR. ZITOUNI: 11 Like every pilot, you know, 12 they're always complaining. Or they say the whine 13 don't stop after the engine quit. 14 standard procedure. 15 and stuff, so everybody complains. So, you know, that's You know, the schedule, day off But, you know, nothing that, you know, 16 17 wanted him to quit. You know, stuff like that. 18 everybody complains. 19 probably complain about your work, even though you, 20 it's probably a good one. I mean, I don't know. 21 MR. LAWRENCE: 22 MR. ETCHER: 23 MR. ZITOUNI: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Yes, You guys Okay. I think we all do. All do. It's human nature. You said that, you know, he had concerns, or he expressed some concerns to you NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 17 1 about days off. MR. ZITOUNI: 2 3 Any other things that -We all do, yes. 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 5 MR. ZITOUNI: 6 Everyone, we all do. Okay. Okay. We all do. It's not a, that's a regular procedure. MR. LAWRENCE: 7 You eluded to this earlier 8 when you were kind of describing him. 9 he follow procedures? 10 MR. ZITOUNI: 11 MR. LAWRENCE: Did Oscar, did Yes, sir. Did you ever observe him in 12 any of your flights, act contrary to the company 13 procedures -- 14 MR. ZITOUNI: 15 MR. LAWRENCE: 16 MR. ZITOUNI: 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 No. -- or regulations? No. Okay. Did you know the First Officer, Renato? MR. ZITOUNI: 19 No, sir. I met him twice, and 20 he, let's see, I met him twice, I don't know him at 21 all. 22 June, so I don't -- I didn't fly with him, and he was just hired in MR. LAWRENCE: 23 All right. Okay. I'm going 24 to tap into a little bit about your experience specific 25 to ExecuFlight, this company. How are guys scheduled NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 18 1 at this company? MR. ZITOUNI: 2 3 schedule. 4 off. 6 So we have no We are on-call 24/7, unless we have set days MR. LAWRENCE: 5 It's on demand. How many set days off do you have? MR. ZITOUNI: 7 Whatever you want to take. So 8 they are pretty, if I'm asked with it, if you need days 9 off, they give you days off. 10 days off on the schedule, so you're not flying. MR. LAWRENCE: 11 12 MR. ZITOUNI: Thirteen per quarter you can, thirteen per quarter. MR. LAWRENCE: 15 16 Is there a minimum number of days off or a maximum? 13 14 But you have to put your Okay. So you can move those days wherever you need them in a quarter. MR. ZITOUNI: 17 Yes. They, and then if you 18 need more, you have a doctor appointment, you have, I 19 don't know, your daughter recital or something, you can 20 work with our Chief Pilot or dispatch. 21 committed to you. MR. LAWRENCE: 22 Okay. They are Did you ever have any 23 difficulties, I know you haven't been here that long, 24 but any difficulties in getting the days off that you 25 wanted? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 19 1 MR. ZITOUNI: 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. ZITOUNI: I don't get days off. Excuse me? I mean, I get days off when I 4 don't fly. 5 set days off that much, so I never had, no. 6 no, I don't. MR. LAWRENCE: 7 8 When on the schedule, I don't request for Okay. MR. ZITOUNI: Between, depend on how busy we 10 are. 11 Depending how busy we are. Between 10 and, I'd say, 16, 17 days a month. 12 MR. LAWRENCE: 13 MR. ZITOUNI: MR. LAWRENCE: 16 MR. ZITOUNI: So they give you a lot of time Yes. That's, I'm answering your question? MR. LAWRENCE: 18 19 Okay. off. 15 17 Well, then how many days are, do you fly per month? 9 14 To answer, Yes. I know. I understand. Do you guys have a training contract? MR. ZITOUNI: 20 Training contract? I know I don't have one. I mean, I 21 don't have one. 22 about, when I started, I had one with the Westwind, but 23 at this time, I don't have one. 24 people have. I don't know if other I'm talking about me, okay? MR. LAWRENCE: 25 I don't know Okay. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 20 1 MR. ZITOUNI: 2 MR. LAWRENCE: You just answered my next 3 question. 4 a group of people or several people that they term 5 dispatchers. They're not really dispatchers. MR. LAWRENCE: 8 9 And I understand ExecuFlight has MR. ZITOUNI: 6 7 Thank you. I don't know. Right. Now how would you describe them? MR. ZITOUNI: 10 We call them dispatch, but 11 they're basically, they're sales people, and they help 12 us with some of the, like, customs, they help them with 13 customs, stuff like this, hotel reservations sometimes. 14 Just fuel authorization. 15 MR. LAWRENCE: 16 MR. ZITOUNI: 17 But they are not, they don't help us with the flying parts of the trips. MR. LAWRENCE: 18 19 to my next question. 20 flight planning? Okay. Okay? That's kind of leads Do they have any role as far as 21 MR. ZITOUNI: 22 MR. LAWRENCE: 23 Okay. No. Weight and balance or weather? 24 MR. ZITOUNI: 25 Captain responsibility. No, no. That's all is the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 21 MR. LAWRENCE: 1 All right. So we mentioned 2 about flight plans. 3 but so who files the flight plans for the flights? MR. ZITOUNI: 4 5 Who files, you just eluded to it, The Captain fly his flight plan. 6 MR. LAWRENCE: 7 MR. ZITOUNI: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. ZITOUNI: 10 MR. LAWRENCE: 11 MR. ZITOUNI: 12 MR. ZITOUNI: We have a company login, and Okay. What about weather We do everything NOAA. Our Okay. So NOAA and FltPlan.com? MR. ZITOUNI: Flightplan.com. Yes, flightplan.com gives you the weather too. MR. LAWRENCE: Okay. What type of weather does FltPlan.com give you? MR. ZITOUNI: 23 24 Okay. MR. LAWRENCE: 21 22 FltPlan.com. FltPlan.com, whatever is approved in the SOP. 19 20 How does he do that? briefings? 17 18 Files his flight plan. MR. LAWRENCE: 15 16 Okay. we go in there. 13 14 Generally it's the Captain. Same thing as, you get the METAR, TAFs, and route, NOTAMs. MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Everything you need. Okay. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 22 1 MR. ZITOUNI: 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 SIGMET, AIRMET. And is that, that's approved in the -- 4 MR. ZITOUNI: 5 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes, in the SOP. Yes. Okay. In your 6 experience flying with Oscar, is that how he handled 7 each flight? 8 use FltPlan.com for weather? MR. ZITOUNI: 9 10 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. ZITOUNI: 14 MR. LAWRENCE: computer? How would he get, how On a computer. His computer? Company FBO computer. Yes. Phone. You can get it -MR. LAWRENCE: 18 19 Okay. What -MR. ZITOUNI: 16 17 National would he get NOAA weather? 13 15 Weather or NOAA. Weather Service. 11 12 He would go to FltPlan.com to file, and Okay. Did you observe him doing that? MR. ZITOUNI: 20 Yes, sir. Yes. We printed, 21 we print the weather. 22 and we print the flight plans, weather, NOTAMs, that 23 kind of stuff. MR. LAWRENCE: 24 25 We have like a flight folder, Okay. Was that a procedure to print that up and take it out? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 23 1 MR. ZITOUNI: 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. ZITOUNI: 4 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. I think it's even Okay. Do you know what flight following is? 7 MR. ZITOUNI: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 And have it with you? required by the, it is required by the FAA also. 5 6 Yes. Yes, sir. Describe that. What is flight following? 10 MR. ZITOUNI: 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 MR. ZITOUNI: 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 MR. ZITOUNI: Flight following -Yes. From ATC? From a company standpoint. Oh, flight following from the 15 company standpoint? So, when you, before you take off, 16 you send a text message, doors closed, with you EFT or 17 flight number. 18 doors open, to same thing, the company, with the IFT 19 flight number to Danny, our Chief Pilot, and the 20 salespeople. When you land, you send a message, 21 MR. LAWRENCE: 22 MR. ZITOUNI: 23 Okay. And the DO. Director of Operations. 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 MR. ZITOUNI: Okay. Did Oscar do that? Yes, sir. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 1 2 Okay. Was it the Captain's responsibility to do that or the First Officer? 3 MR. ZITOUNI: 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 5 MR. ZITOUNI: Yes. Yes. Okay. Yes. Yes. I mean, depending, you know, 6 sometimes I would do it because, especially in the 7 beginning when he started, you know. 8 into the -MR. LAWRENCE: 9 10 MR. ZITOUNI: 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 MR. ZITOUNI: 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 MR. ZITOUNI: MR. LAWRENCE: 18 MR. ZITOUNI: 19 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. ZITOUNI: are overseas. I'm sorry. Got it. So that was sent via Yes, personal cell phone text Okay. Or WhatApps. Could that be emailed or was Text or WhatApps in, when we I mean, international. MR. LAWRENCE: 23 24 Yes. it always text? 21 22 Yes. message. 17 20 Rhythm? a, your personal cell phone? 15 16 And then he got And then, what did you call that? MR. ZITOUNI: 25 WhatApps. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 25 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. ZITOUNI: 3 MR. ETCHER: 4 MR. ZITOUNI: 5 MR. ETCHER: 6 It's a -- Is that an application or -Yes. Yes. There's an app for that on the MR. ZITOUNI: On, yes. On everybody and, it's free. MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. ZITOUNI: 10 11 Yes. iPhone, I think. 7 8 WhatApps? Okay. Because sometimes you don't have -MR. SHACKLEFORD: 12 The biggest thing is that 13 saves you from having all the data roaming charges when 14 you -MR. LAWRENCE: 15 16 going to get to that. 17 you have on your phone? 18 MR. ZITOUNI: 19 MR. LAWRENCE: 20 Okay. Yes. Yes. I was So it's an application Yes, sir. Okay. Does the company provide, or just something you just -- 21 MR. ZITOUNI: 22 MR. LAWRENCE: 23 MR. ZITOUNI: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Okay. It's free. Okay. Everybody can get it. Okay. Let me shift gears a little bit and talk, ask you a little bit about the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 26 1 Hawker. You got some experience. 2 different airplanes. How was the Hawker to fly? MR. ZITOUNI: 3 4 fly. 5 hard airplane to fly. You've been flying It's a very easy airplane to I come from flying a Westwind, which is a very I can compare, like, the Hawker to a 6 7 Chieftain or Navajo. 8 It's, as long as you fly it within the envelope, you 9 have no issues. 10 I mean, I wish I started flying the Hawker before. MR. LAWRENCE: 11 12 It's a very forgiving airplane. to clarify, you flew the 700 and the 800? 13 MR. ZITOUNI: 14 MR. LAWRENCE: 15 Compare that, and then just Yes, sir. Okay. Tell me the difference between the two. 16 MR. ZITOUNI: 17 wagon, and a 800 is more race car. 18 MR. LAWRENCE: 19 MR. ZITOUNI: 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 700 is like your station That's good. It's a better performance. Okay. 800 had better performance? 22 MR. ZITOUNI: 23 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. Tell me about the cockpit and 24 what you had available as a pilot, in front of you in 25 the cockpit. The difference between the 700 and the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 27 1 800. MR. ZITOUNI: 2 The only difference between 3 the two is that we have, I don't know how to call it, 4 can you help me? 5 MR. ETCHER: 6 accident airplane versus the 800? MR. LAWRENCE: 7 8 generally. I'm saying 700 and 800 I'm going to get down to the -MR. SHACKLEFORD: 9 10 Are you asking about the MR. LAWRENCE: 12 MR. ZITOUNI: 13 MR. LAWRENCE: Do you know the different -Yes. Generally, what were the 14 differences in the cockpit. 15 and -MR. ZITOUNI: 16 word. Yes. MR. LAWRENCE: I'm looking for the Just a word. What are you trying to describe? 20 MR. ZITOUNI: 21 MR. SHACKLEFORD: 22 Think about (inaudible) Can you help me with a word? 18 19 I'm, he's asking you. 11 17 Don't look at me. The -Don't tell him what you think about him. MR. ZITOUNI: 23 Okay. About him? You don't 24 know. No, the only difference is, like, a 700 is all 25 analog, just steam gauges and stuff like this. The 800 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 28 1 has got a -- 2 MR. ETCHER: 3 MR. ZITOUNI: EFIS? Digital, no, it's not EFIS. 4 It's just a digital, altitude indicator with whole 5 bunch of information, so you don't have to scan as 6 much. 7 stuff like this. You know, for your speed, your rate of climb and When the 700 is just a traditional cockpit, 8 9 you know, that sits back and you have more scan. The 10 800, you have like a smaller digital altitude 11 indicator, and it shows you a lot of information in 12 there. 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 MR. ZITOUNI: 15 MR. LAWRENCE: Okay. So you don't have to scan. Right. So to expand on what 16 you just said, you would have to scan the instrument 17 panel more on a 700 than you would the 800? MR. ZITOUNI: 18 Yes. Yes, because, yes. It 19 was more, that instrument, you view many information at 20 once. MR. LAWRENCE: 21 22 And you flew different 700s here? 23 MR. ZITOUNI: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Okay. Yes, sir. Okay. Yes, sir. Were there differences between those two aircraft? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 29 1 MR. ZITOUNI: 2 navigations, the FMSs or the front. 3 radar was different. Just the Maybe the way the But they were very similar. MR. LAWRENCE: 4 Very little. Okay. And this will be your 5 opinion, but I'm curious, when you flew the 700 and 6 then transitioned to the 800, or you would be flying 7 the 800 and then have to go back and fly in the 700, 8 was that difficult? MR. ZITOUNI: 9 MR. LAWRENCE: 10 11 No, no, no. Okay. All right. Want to talk about, specific to 237 -- 12 MR. ZITOUNI: 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 All right? 15 particular airplane. Yes. -- the accident airplane. A couple of things, if you recall that 16 MR. ZITOUNI: 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 MR. ZITOUNI: 19 MR. LAWRENCE: 20 MR. ZITOUNI: 21 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes, sir. The ADI, in front of you -Yes. And the attitude. Yes. Did that have a decision 22 height selectable decision height? 23 MR. ZITOUNI: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Okay. Where was that located? Yes, sir. Okay. Where was that at? Was it on the ADI or -- NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 30 MR. ZITOUNI: 1 Yes, right on the ADI. It's 2 on top of, you're talking about the radar altimeter? 3 What are you talking about? 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 5 MR. ZITOUNI: 6 It's on the selectable? Oh, you had, you're talking about the -- 7 MR. LAWRENCE: 8 MR. ZITOUNI: 9 MR. LAWRENCE: Decision height. Decision height. Right. Where would you set 10 decision height? Like you're going to shoot an ILS 11 down 200 feet, where would you set it? MR. ZITOUNI: 12 13 (inaudible). 14 thing. MR. LAWRENCE: 16 MR. ZITOUNI: there. 18 analog. MR. LAWRENCE: 20 MR. ZITOUNI: 21 MR. LAWRENCE: Okay. On the ADI. It was just out Okay. And you just set it there. Okay. So you would set it there. 23 MR. ZITOUNI: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 The little It was something, it was numbers, it was 19 22 Not on the altitude On the radar altimeter. 15 17 Yes. Yes. If your altitude reached that altitude -NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 31 1 MR. ZITOUNI: 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. ZITOUNI: 5 MR. LAWRENCE: in the cockpit? MR. LAWRENCE: Does anything go off Yes. It would call for Wait a minute. The airplane would countdown to minimums or the pilot would? MR. ZITOUNI: 11 12 get up to that altitude. 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 Okay. minimums because you have a countdown to minimum. 9 10 Yes. Is there a oral or a chime? MR. ZITOUNI: 7 8 Let's say you turn 200 on, and you got to 200, that's a radar altimeter? 4 6 Yes. Both. Okay. It's a minimum when you And the airplane had a callout that would say minimums, minimums? 15 MR. ZITOUNI: 16 MR. LAWRENCE: 17 MR. ZITOUNI: 18 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes, minimums. Yes. Automatic call-out? Yes, yes. Okay. Where would you set 19 the altitude window that you would normally set for the 20 autopilot to hold, like, 15,000 feet, and you set it to 21 15,000 in here. 22 MR. ZITOUNI: 23 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. On a non-precision approach, 24 like a localizer approach, where you're flying and 25 doing this. Step-down -NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 32 1 MR. ZITOUNI: 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 set that altitude for the approach? 4 MR. ZITOUNI: 5 MR. LAWRENCE: 6 MR. ZITOUNI: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 10 -- fixes? Where would you To the next step down. Okay. For minimum descent altitude -- 7 9 Yes. Yes. You're going to need your bottom altitude for localizer, where would you set that? The MDA? 11 MR. ZITOUNI: 12 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes, the MDA. Okay. All right. Okay. So 13 in general, I'm going to have you kind of just walk me 14 through, let's talk about, I'll show you a localizer 15 approach to Akron Fulton, okay? 16 MR. ZITOUNI: 17 MR. LAWRENCE: Okay. Yes, sir. I know you've probably seen 18 this already. All right. 19 chart for Runway 25, okay? This is a localizer Just kind of generally, Nabil, if you would, 20 21 tell me how you would set this approach up, 22 specifically to 237, the accident airplane. 23 you set this approach up to fly it? 24 MR. ZITOUNI: 25 don't know. Okay. How would Well, I probably, I A hundred, let me see, yes. About 100 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 33 1 miles out, I would get the weather. 2 information about the field, what runway we are 3 landing. 4 for that approach. 5 plate briefing. 6 to do the briefing? And then I would start setting up the plane I'd go to the briefing, approach So, you want me to do, I'm not going 7 MR. LAWRENCE: 8 MR. ZITOUNI: 9 10 So I would get the International. Yes, go ahead. So that's Akron, Ohio, Fulton Localizer Runway 25. Okay, I have already the weather dialed in. 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 MR. ZITOUNI: 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 MR. ZITOUNI: I'm sorry? The weather. Okay. The ASOS, 126 Cleveland 15 center. CTAF, there's no tower, so we're going to use 16 the -- for that, going to put in the localizer for 17 frequency 110.9. MR. LAWRENCE: 18 19 MR. ZITOUNI: frequency. Where do you Localizer on the VOR And then the course would be set -MR. ZITOUNI: 24 25 Yes. Okay, on both sides, identify. MR. LAWRENCE: 22 23 Okay. dial in the localizer? 20 21 And approach goes to 49 degrees. The course, yes. The course would be set, so we'd be flying right there upon FMS, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 34 1 so procedure, we switch to a, it's not a, well, that's 2 what we do. We switch to heading mode, and then we go 3 4 to, we go to VOR and then put the course, then switch 5 back to FMS mode because we're probably flying on FMS, 6 so take off the heading mode and go to FMS. 7 minimum altitude is 2,300 MDA. So that's where you start the approach, I 8 9 10 Okay, believe, yes, the final approach. And the 1540, 473 above the ground, so that's what you set in your -- 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 MR. ZITOUNI: What would you set on that? You set the, on your MDA radar 13 altimeter you set 473, you going to have 473, end up 14 setting 500 because you are not conservative. Airport elevation is 1,000 feet. 15 Touchdown 16 zone at 1,000 feet. Interceptor attitude is 3,000. 17 Then you brief on the missed approach. 18 approach, if we don't get the runway, we plan at 3,000 19 feet, 249 heading, so that's a runway heading outbound, 20 and then you intercept the 322 radio to (inaudible) 21 intersection, and hold. MR. LAWRENCE: 22 Very good. 23 things I wanted to ask you about. 24 final approach fix -MR. ZITOUNI: 25 Missed A couple of When you came to the Yes, sir. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 35 MR. LAWRENCE: 1 And you started down, okay? 2 What is the procedure -- it's ExecuFlight, flying the 3 Hawker, to set the minimum. 4 about 500 on the radio altimeter -- 5 MR. ZITOUNI: 6 MR. LAWRENCE: If you set, you would set Yes, sir. Once you started down, what 7 would you do? Would you just fly it to the radar 8 altimeter as the MDA, or would you fly -MR. ZITOUNI: 9 No, you would set the -- yes, 10 1,600 on the radar altimeter, and -- 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 MR. ZITOUNI: 13 Wait a minute. Oh, no. Attitude after, I'm sorry. 14 MR. LAWRENCE: 15 MR. ZITOUNI: Right. And then, if, I don't know, 16 yes. And then if you're ready, you just let the 17 autopilot fly it. 18 the 1,500, you know, the autopilot, and then you look 19 for the runway. You monitor everything, you just let MR. LAWRENCE: 20 Great. You've mentioned a 21 couple things that caught my attention. 22 FMS. 23 airport or en route, you're flying FMS. You said the I understand when you're flying, like, to an 24 MR. ZITOUNI: 25 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. For this type of an approach, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 36 1 what does ExecuFlight train, and what are you guys 2 supposed to use FMS for when you're flying a non- 3 precision approach? Do you use the FMS? MR. ZITOUNI: 4 There's not really a thing. 5 My personal choice would be to back up. 6 the localizer, I back up the localizer approach with 7 the (inaudible) if there's one available. So if something goes wrong, you know, I have 8 9 If I'm flying at least a backup. Yes, I have a backup or, you know, 10 just something, you know, with a flight visual 11 approach, I always back it up with ILS or something. MR. LAWRENCE: 12 13 procedure. 14 Is there a procedure? Sure. You said that's your What's ExecuFlight want their pilots to do? 15 MR. ZITOUNI: 16 MR. LAWRENCE: No, there is not a procedure. You also mentioned, I would 17 fly it on autopilot. Is there a standard procedure to 18 fly non-precision approach or a requirement to fly non- 19 precision approach on autopilot? 20 MR. ZITOUNI: 21 MR. LAWRENCE: No. Okay. Going back to Oscar 22 and his use of, his flying of non-precision approaches, 23 do you recall if he used the autopilot to fly those or 24 hand flown? MR. ZITOUNI: 25 Yes. Yes, mostly autopilot. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 37 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. ZITOUNI: 3 MR. LAWRENCE: Okay. Auto pilot and, yes. But do you know of a company 4 procedure that requires the use of autopilot for non- 5 precision approaches? 6 MR. ZITOUNI: 7 MR. LAWRENCE: 8 MR. ZITOUNI: 9 MR. LAWRENCE: 10 How are you doing? 11 How you doing? No. Okay. Okay. It's up to the pilot. Up to the pilot. Do you need water? 12 MR. ZITOUNI: 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 MR. ZITOUNI: 15 MR. LAWRENCE: 16 MR. ZITOUNI: 17 MR. LAWRENCE: No, I'm doing good. Okay. Yes. A little hot in here, but -Just a few more questions on 19 call-outs on a non-precision approach? 21 MR. LAWRENCE: 22 MR. ZITOUNI: 23 Are there standard Yes. What are they? The altitude to the minimums, your speed, your alignment with the runway. MR. LAWRENCE: 24 25 Coffee? We're almost done. these non-precision approaches. MR. ZITOUNI: Break? No, I'm doing good. 18 20 All right. more specific. Okay. Let me be a little bit And, again, I'm at a disadvantage NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 38 1 because I haven't been given copies of the standard 2 operating procedures yet. 3 have a stable approach criteria? 4 MR. ZITOUNI: 5 MR. LAWRENCE: But do you, does ExecuFlight Yes. What is that? 6 approach criteria for ExecuFlight? 7 MR. ZITOUNI: 8 Stable approach? You mean, I don't understand. MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. JAHR: 10 11 What is stable All right. You're talking specifically to non-precision approaches? MR. LAWRENCE: 12 My question is, is there a 13 stable approach criteria at ExecuFlight. 14 the approaches specifically later. 15 1,000 feet, do you need to be configured or anything 16 like that? 18 don't understand. 20 Of course. I mean, but I It's basic training. MR. LAWRENCE: 19 If you arrive at Or -MR. ZITOUNI: 17 I'll get to I mean, you -- Let me give you a scenario. If I arrived at 1,000 feet above the ground. 21 MR. ZITOUNI: 22 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. At any point -- instrument 23 approach, visual or anything, and let's say my speed 24 was in excess of 20 knots. Above ref. 25 20 knots too fast, flying. Okay? You know, I was NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 39 MR. ZITOUNI: 1 20 knots is nothing on the 2 Hawker. On the Westwind is a more, it's more an issue 3 because you don't slow down. 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 5 MR. ZITOUNI: 6 issue. 7 miss. Okay. But on the Hawker, it's not an You say maybe 50, let's say 50, I would go 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. ZITOUNI: MR. LAWRENCE: 10 Okay. Yes, above the takeoff -Does the company have 11 guidelines that tell you that 1,000 feet you need to be 12 within certain criteria, or you need to execute a go- 13 around? MR. ZITOUNI: 14 I don't think we have a 15 procedure, but I think it's in the, more like in the 16 training manual. 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 MR. ZITOUNI: 19 All right. Does that make sense? know. MR. LAWRENCE: 20 Okay. All right, come back 21 to that. 22 when a pilot, say the pilot monitoring -- Let me ask you, so is there a call-out for 23 MR. ZITOUNI: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 I don't Yes. To make on a non-precision approach as you're approaching minimum descent NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 40 1 altitude, MDA? MR. ZITOUNI: 2 Oh, yes, 1,000 feet above 3 minimum and so on, and then you go by 100 feet 4 increments. MR. LAWRENCE: 5 6 out altitudes -- 7 MR. ZITOUNI: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. ZITOUNI: 10 MR. LAWRENCE: 11 MR. ZITOUNI: 12 MR. LAWRENCE: 13 So you would continue calling Yes. At 100 knot -Yes. Prior to the MDA. Yes. So in this particular approach, the MDAs being 40 -- 14 MR. ZITOUNI: 15 the final approach fix. 16 to 1,500 or 1,600, so that's 700, you call out for 700 17 above minimum when you cross. So if you would start Then you call out from 2,300 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 19 Yes. And then 6, 5 -- Every 100 feet you're calling? 20 MR. ZITOUNI: 21 MR. LAWRENCE: 22 MR. ZITOUNI: Yes. Okay. On top of the speed, because 23 by then it should be at Ref plus 20, and the alignment 24 with the runway, left of center line, right of center 25 line, something like that. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 41 MR. LAWRENCE: 1 Okay. 2 already answered that one. 3 things. And I think you Couple of, just follow up Passenger use of seatbelts. 4 MR. ZITOUNI: 5 MR. LAWRENCE: 6 responsible to brief the passengers? 7 MR. ZITOUNI: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. ZITOUNI: Yes. Who briefed, who's The Captain. The Captain is? Yes. We radio Captain brief 10 the passenger, on the (phonetic) F4, inside of the 11 cockpit. 12 MR. LAWRENCE: 13 MR. ZITOUNI: 14 Okay. So there's not too much waiting or -MR. LAWRENCE: 15 Right. Do all the Captains 16 you fly with, I know it's a small number, but do all 17 the Captains you fly with brief passengers about 18 seatbelts? MR. ZITOUNI: 19 Yes. Sometimes, if full, you 20 know, it can be delegated to do the safety briefing. 21 But, yes, usually the Captain -MR. LAWRENCE: 22 23 You remember if Oscar did that? MR. ZITOUNI: 24 25 Okay. Yes. Yes. On a regular basis. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 42 MR. LAWRENCE: 1 2 Okay. He do that for every flight or just first flight? MR. ZITOUNI: 3 The first, on the first leg. 4 You brief the people, if we have people for a multi- 5 leg, you brief them on the first leg and -- 6 MR. LAWRENCE: 7 procedure to verify that they had -- 8 MR. ZITOUNI: 9 MR. LAWRENCE: 10 MR. ZITOUNI: 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 MR. ZITOUNI: Okay. Did, is there a Yes, of course. The seatbelts. Yes. And what was that? Well, yes. Before takeoff, we 13 always tell them that, well, you know, we're going to 14 take off. 15 going to take off, and we check that, from the cockpit 16 you can see if they have their seatbelts. MR. LAWRENCE: 17 18 I mean, we warn them that, you know, we're Okay. Good. What about on landing, when you're coming in -- 19 MR. ZITOUNI: 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 seatbelts? 22 passengers? For landing and checking the Is there a seatbelt sign for the MR. ZITOUNI: 23 Yes. Yes, yes. We have a seatbelt 24 sign, it's on, and yes, something will blink and then 25 we tell them we're going to land and make sure they NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 43 1 have their seatbelts on and the tray table stowed. MR. LAWRENCE: 2 3 Who would make that announcement? MR. ZITOUNI: 4 Either or, I mean, the one 5 who's not, I mean, I would do it. 6 it because it's easier for me. MR. LAWRENCE: 7 Yes. Usually I would do And was it the same 8 process as takeoff? You would just look back there to 9 see if they had their seatbelts on? 10 MR. ZITOUNI: 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 MR. ZITOUNI: 13 Okay. But usually people are pretty good with it. MR. LAWRENCE: 14 15 Yes. things. Okay. Just a couple more The weight and balance -- 16 MR. ZITOUNI: 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 you guys do your weight and balance. MR. ZITOUNI: 19 Yes, sir. For each leg. Okay. Describe how So the weight and 20 balance from when we leave here, we access the computer 21 at the office. We do the weight and balance. Ultra Nav, we get on the Ultra Nav at the 22 23 office, and we do the weight and balance that way. 24 When we are away from the office, we can access the 25 server, Ultra Nav, through a (inaudible), and that's NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 44 1 how we do the weight and balance. 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. ZITOUNI: 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 5 MR. ZITOUNI: Who is responsible to do The pilot in command. MR. LAWRENCE: 9 weighed for each flight? 10 MR. ZITOUNI: 11 MR. LAWRENCE: Were the, are the passengers The passenger -Does he have a means to weigh them prior to -MR. ZITOUNI: 13 Yes. We on board, we have a 14 scale, approved scale by the FAA to weigh the 15 passengers and their luggage. MR. LAWRENCE: 16 17 located on the Hawkers? 18 MR. ZITOUNI: 19 MR. LAWRENCE: 20 The PIC. 8 12 Okay. that? 6 7 Okay. Okay. Where's that scale It sits right at -Specifically, the accident airplane. MR. ZITOUNI: 21 It's right in the luggage 22 compartment, when you go out the door, it's right there 23 in front of you. MR. LAWRENCE: 24 25 You recall seeing that, two days before the accident on the accident airplane? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 45 MR. ZITOUNI: 1 2 Oh, yes, it's always there. It's always there. 3 MR. LAWRENCE: 4 MR. ZITOUNI: Okay. Because it's always in the 5 way, because the luggage compartment is not that big, 6 and it's always in the way because, you know, you try 7 to, especially some people, they don't travel light. 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. ZITOUNI: MR. LAWRENCE: 10 11 right. 12 large. So you're always trying to -I saw a Hawker, and you're The luggage compartment is not quite that MR. ZITOUNI: 13 14 Yes. But it's nice. I like it down there. MR. LAWRENCE: 15 Okay. Were you required by 16 procedures or company policy or operation 17 specifications to weigh the passengers and bags for 18 each flight? 19 MR. ZITOUNI: 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 MR. ZITOUNI: 22 It's in the SOP. Okay. We don't, we take actual weights. MR. LAWRENCE: 23 24 Yes, sir. Did all the Captains that you flew with do that? MR. ZITOUNI: 25 Everybody does it. It's a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 46 1 company policy. MR. LAWRENCE: 2 Okay. So if I was on, if you 3 were flying a charter, say a two-day charter with the 4 same people. 5 MR. ZITOUNI: 6 MR. LAWRENCE: 7 MR. ZITOUNI: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. ZITOUNI: 11 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. ZITOUNI: 14 MR. LAWRENCE: You would weigh those No, just once. Okay. Which flight would you My first one. Okay. And then what about the luggage? 16 MR. ZITOUNI: 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 MR. ZITOUNI: 19 MR. LAWRENCE: 20 Yes. weigh them on? 13 15 For multiple flights. individuals every flight? 10 12 Yes. Luggage, same thing. Just the first flight? Yes, first flight. But you said the procedure is to do that for every flight, correct? MR. ZITOUNI: 21 The procedure is we cannot 22 take, like, the airline, set the weight for every 23 passenger or their luggage. 24 Actually weigh them. 25 How are they going to gain 20 pounds in two days? So we have to weigh them. So I think we weigh them once. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 47 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. ZITOUNI: 3 MR. LAWRENCE: 4 MR. ZITOUNI: 5 MR. LAWRENCE: 6 MR. ZITOUNI: 7 MR. LAWRENCE: 8 MR. ZITOUNI: 9 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. ZITOUNI: 10 11 Okay. So -Could the luggage change? No, not that much. Okay. Especially business flights. Okay. And, it could change, but -Yes. Five pounds, I mean, it's not a significant -MR. LAWRENCE: 12 So in your experience, and I 13 don't want to put words in your mouth, but I just, you 14 know, correct me if I'm wrong, in your experience, 15 generally you guys would weigh the passengers and bags 16 on the first flight -- 17 MR. ZITOUNI: 18 MR. LAWRENCE: 19 throughout the charter? 20 MR. ZITOUNI: 21 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. And then use the same weights yes. Okay. Let me shift gears a 22 second. I found out you guys train down, you do 23 simulator training down in Dallas? 24 MR. ZITOUNI: 25 MR. LAWRENCE: Simuflite, yes. Yes. Okay. Kind of describe NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 48 1 your training, the training you received when you came 2 on with ExecuFlight. MR. ZITOUNI: 3 Best. I mean, talking about 4 Simuflite, it's one of the best training I ever had. 5 Very experienced people. Great facility. Great -- I've been there many times with the 6 7 Westwind and the Hawker. Flying on the Hawker only 8 once, but I have previous experience with the Westwind 9 at the Simuflite, and it was, nothing bad to say about 10 the great instructor, great equipment. 11 very experienced in the airplanes so they teach you 12 more than usually, I mean, you should know to pass 13 because you share their experience with the plane. 14 MR. LAWRENCE: 15 MR. ZITOUNI: And people are Okay. And then on many occasions, I 16 needed more, I could call back the instructor and 17 actually get a, you know, feedback. 18 MR. LAWRENCE: 19 MR. ZITOUNI: 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 Yes. Stuff like this. Great. The simulator that you flew at Simuflite, was it a 700 or an 800? 22 MR. ZITOUNI: 23 MR. LAWRENCE: 24 MR. ZITOUNI: 25 Yes. difference 800. 700. Was it, okay. You do 700 training, Difference training, 800. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 49 MR. LAWRENCE: 1 2 MR. ZITOUNI: 4 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. ZITOUNI: 7 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. ZITOUNI: MR. LAWRENCE: 10 So you would fly the No. Differences, classroom. Classroom. Got it. That's You know. You didn't know. Okay. The 700 Sim, how similar -- 12 MR. ZITOUNI: 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 Okay. where I wanted to make sure. 9 11 Yes, sir. 700 Sim, and then you'd do differences in an 800 Sim? 6 8 Did they have an 800 Sim as well? 3 5 Okay. It's the same. Except for -- Let me finish. How similar was it to the accident airplane? 15 MR. ZITOUNI: 16 MR. LAWRENCE: 17 MR. ZITOUNI: Very close. Okay. Except for the, probably the 18 FMS. You know the electronic radios, FMS? 19 close to the airplane we flew. MR. LAWRENCE: 20 All right. But very Was the decision 21 height on the ABI and the altitude window you would 22 set? MR. ZITOUNI: 23 24 cannot recall. 25 January of this year. Sir, to be honest with you, I I went to the initial training in NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 50 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. ZITOUNI: Okay. That's fine. So I'm due next month, around 3 December or the next month, I won't tell you what color 4 it was, okay, so -MR. LAWRENCE: 5 Okay. And I should've told 6 you earlier, Nabil, I don't know is a perfectly 7 acceptable answer. That's good. 8 MR. ZITOUNI: 9 MR. LAWRENCE: Okay. Okay. No -That's fine. Just 10 wanted to see if you happened to remember. 11 have an opportunity, we're going to go down and take a 12 look. 13 MR. ZITOUNI: 14 MR. LAWRENCE: 15 MR. ZITOUNI: 16 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. ZITOUNI: 20 MR. LAWRENCE: Well, I mean, those are great Okay. Good. What procedures Procedures about what? Did you use Simuflite procedures and call-outs, or did you use ExecuFlight's? MR. ZITOUNI: 22 23 So, we'll -- were you trained on when you were at Simuflite? 19 21 Okay. people we're talking about. 17 18 And we will No, we used the training manual. 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 MR. ZITOUNI: Okay. Which is pretty close to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 51 1 Simuflite's training manual. MR. LAWRENCE: 2 3 Great. Great. So you used ExecuFlight procedures and ExecuFlight manuals? 4 MR. ZITOUNI: 5 MR. LAWRENCE: 6 MR. ZITOUNI: 7 MR. LAWRENCE: 8 MR. ZITOUNI: 9 and we fly as we train. MR. LAWRENCE: 10 Yes. Yes, manuals. When you flew. Yes. Okay. Because we train as we fly, Okay? So that's the -- Great. And you mentioned the 11 instructors, but I just want to make sure we have this 12 down. They're not ExecuFlight instructors -- 13 MR. ZITOUNI: 14 MR. LAWRENCE: 15 MR. ZITOUNI: 16 MR. LAWRENCE: No. They're Simuflite -Simuflite, approved -Okay. Great. When you were 17 down there, did you receive crew resource management, 18 CRM, training? MR. ZITOUNI: 19 Not that specific training, 20 but your CRM in the simulator is evaluated for the 21 check ride and during all the training. 22 didn't, we don't go to specific, because they have 23 classes for international procedure, CRM, weather, 24 whatever. 25 the training, you're very encouraged to use the CRM, So, no, we We didn't go in those classes, but during NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 52 1 and you are evaluated on your CRM. 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. ZITOUNI: 4 a, yes, it's a big deal. 5 MR. LAWRENCE: Okay. Especially as a Captain. It's So just to be clear, there 6 wasn't a specific classroom module or something they're 7 -- 8 MR. ZITOUNI: 9 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. ZITOUNI: 10 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 13 MR. ZITOUNI: 14 MR. LAWRENCE: 15 MR. ZITOUNI: 16 MR. LAWRENCE: 17 MR. ZITOUNI: MR. LAWRENCE: There is, but we didn't attend Oh, okay. They offer it. Yes. But you didn't go to it. No. Okay. It isn't considered it part of Okay. But you were evaluated on CRM? 21 MR. ZITOUNI: 22 MR. LAWRENCE: 23 MR. ZITOUNI: 24 There wasn't? our, it's not part of our training to -- 19 20 No. that class. 12 18 Yes. Yes, sir. Okay. And throughout the training, you are encouraged to use appropriate CRM. MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Okay. I'm going to let the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 53 1 other guys on it. You're doing great. 2 appreciate it, Nabil. 3 MR. ZITOUNI: 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 5 I really Yes. Tell me about the company in general, ExecuFlight. 6 MR. ZITOUNI: 7 MR. LAWRENCE: Our company, ExecuFlight? Yes. Just tell me about it. 8 If I didn't know anything about ExecuFlight, how would 9 describe it? MR. ZITOUNI: 10 Okay. ExecuFlight, a 135 11 company. We have many run our plan on management. 12 It's owned by Danny Lewkowicz. 13 we're based in Fort Lauderdale, Executive. 14 great place to work. 16 I mean, And it's a I don't have any complaints. MR. LAWRENCE: 15 That's it. Okay. How many pilots do you guys, or does the company employ? MR. ZITOUNI: 17 Sorry, with a contract, or we 18 do, because I don't, because they use contract, and I 19 don't know, I don't know, I know all the 135, so I can 20 name all the 135 if you want. There's one, two, three, I think there's 21 22 eight of us, something. 23 lot of contract pilots, so they come and go. 24 know. MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Yes, I don't know. Really a I don't And do contract pilots fly NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 54 1 the Hawker? 2 MR. ZITOUNI: 3 MR. LAWRENCE: 4 MR. ZITOUNI: 5 MR. LAWRENCE: 6 MR. ZITOUNI: 7 MR. LAWRENCE: 8 MR. ZITOUNI: 9 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. ZITOUNI: 10 11 MR. LAWRENCE: No, no, no. So how many pilots -On the Hawker program? Right. There are five of, six of us. Who are they. It was, I'm sorry. There were I understand. And I'm sorry for that. 14 MR. ZITOUNI: 15 MR. LAWRENCE: 16 Okay. six of us. 12 13 No. second here. Yes. So Danny Shackelford -- Tell me who's -- hang on a Tell me who the Hawker pilots are now. 17 MR. ZITOUNI: 18 MR. LAWRENCE: 19 MR. ZITOUNI: Oh, now. Now. So, now, Donnie Shackleford, 20 Rich Rivudo, Danny Lewkowicz, and Nabil Zitouni, and 21 me. 22 MR. LAWRENCE: 23 MR. JAHR: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 MR. ZITOUNI: Yes. Okay. That's it, yes. Danny, Rich, Donnie, and you. Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 55 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. ZITOUNI: 3 MR. LAWRENCE: 4 MR. ZITOUNI: 6 MR. LAWRENCE: 7 MR. ZITOUNI: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 10 Okay. Just want to make And before -I understand. Oscar and Renato. So you four pilots, now, were at the time prior to the accident, there were six, flying three different airplanes, correct? 11 MR. ZITOUNI: 12 MR. LAWRENCE: 13 Four. sure. 5 9 Four? Yes, sir. Two Hawker 8, 700s and one 800. 14 MR. ZITOUNI: 15 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes, sir. Correct? Is, this may be 16 your opinion, and it's just your opinion, but would you 17 consider that the company's short staffed of Hawker 18 pilots? 19 MR. ZITOUNI: 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 MR. ZITOUNI: No. Why? Because most of the time, 22 there's one down for maintenance. So there's only two 23 airplanes flying out of the three, and like I said, 24 between 10 and 18 days are not even flying because 25 sometimes we are sitting in Las Vegas or somewhere on a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 56 1 tropical island. 2 by -- So I don't think we were overwhelmed MR. LAWRENCE: 3 Okay. Great. Curious, do 4 you guys have, does the company have a director of 5 safety? 6 MR. ZITOUNI: 7 MR. LAWRENCE: 8 You don't know? That's fine. That's okay. MR. ZITOUNI: 9 I thought it was -- MR. SHACKLEFORD: 10 11 I don't know. I would just call it Rich or -MR. ZITOUNI: 12 (Phonetic) Scott Meade. 13 thought it was Scott Meade or something. 14 I'm not sure. MR. LAWRENCE: 15 Okay. I I don't know. Is, well is there some 16 means for you to make a report to the company if you 17 see something unusual or something that's maybe unsafe? MR. ZITOUNI: 18 Not something that's in the 19 book, but you can always walk into the Chief Pilot or 20 Danny's office and talk to him like a normal human 21 being. 22 they're always available to us. I mean, they're very approachable. MR. LAWRENCE: 23 24 I mean, And have you had to do that in -MR. ZITOUNI: 25 No, I never actually do this, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 57 1 but if I see something that I don't like. You know, we 2 have a small company. 3 (inaudible), so we have a good communication process. You know, it's not a big 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 5 MR. ZITOUNI: 6 MR. LAWRENCE: Right. At this one. Great. This will be another 7 opinion, and it's just your opinion, did you ever feel 8 pressure when you're operating a charter to complete 9 the charter or fly, you know what I mean? MR. ZITOUNI: 10 Yes, sir. Me, I don't feel 11 pressure, but there's always pressure, I mean, in every 12 job. 13 I think it's up to the individual to, you know, not let 14 the pressure get to you. 15 pressure at all. In your job, in every job you have pressure. But, no, me, I don't feel 16 MR. LAWRENCE: 17 MR. SHACKLEFORD: 18 MR. LAWRENCE: Okay. Donnie? Are you -- No, no, no. I was just, I 19 want to make sure that the recording's getting it. 20 There was a lot of noise over there. 21 MR. SHACKLEFORD: 22 MR. LAWRENCE: 23 MR. SHACKLEFORD: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Okay. Okay, thanks. All right. Have you ever seen the FAA on one of your jump seats? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 But COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 58 1 MR. ZITOUNI: 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. ZITOUNI: 4 rides. 299 check ride. No. No. I mean, except for check Except for check rides. MR. LAWRENCE: 5 All right. Got it. Ever 6 seen the FAA hanging around the offices or coming in 7 for visits or for training down on Simuflite? 8 ever seen them? MR. ZITOUNI: 9 10 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 MR. ZITOUNI: 13 No, I don't see, I've seen FAA coming in on the maintenance side. 11 Maintenance side. Okay. But I don't know, I don't know what they were doing, so I can't tell you. MR. LAWRENCE: 14 Great. 15 principal Operations Inspector is? 16 MR. ZITOUNI: 17 Have you Yes. Do you know who the Jim Piccoli, James Piccoli on the Miami FSDO. MR. LAWRENCE: 18 Right. Check my notes and 19 see, I'll have a couple follow ups and stuff, but how 20 you doing on time? 21 Anything? MR. ZITOUNI: 22 23 Water anybody? Water break? Yes, I can use, you don't mind? 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 MR. ZITOUNI: Not at all. Five minutes all right? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 59 MR. LAWRENCE: 1 2 recording, get me a, get a five minute break. Yes. (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 3 4 Why don't we stop the off the record and resumed at an undisclosed time.) MR. LAWRENCE: 5 All right. All right, Nabil, 6 I tell you what we're going to do. I'm going to give 7 you an opportunity to take a break from listening to 8 me. And I'm going to just, you know, every, you 9 10 know, make sure everybody, as parties, they have an 11 opportunity to answer or ask a few questions. 12 off, Sean, he's, Sean's with the NTSB, an Operations 13 investigator like myself. MR. ETCHER: 14 15 So first Sean? Did you get a good enough break? 16 MR. ZITOUNI: 17 MR. ETCHER: 18 MR. ZITOUNI: 19 MR. ETCHER: Yes. I'm good. You're comfy now? Yes. All right, good. I just have a 20 few. You did a great job so far to let me kind of 21 understand everything that you can explain, and that's 22 great. I appreciate it. 23 MR. ZITOUNI: 24 MR. ETCHER: 25 Right. Just had a few questions I was hoping you could clarify, because I'm not as familiar NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 60 1 with you all's procedures and your aircraft as you are. 2 Well, back to the approach. 3 localizer 25 there into Akron. 4 MR. ZITOUNI: 5 MR. ETCHER: What we were talking about Yes. And you talked about how you 6 would set, you were telling us how you'd set it all up 7 and everything. 8 your radar altimeter. MR. ZITOUNI: 9 MR. ETCHER: 10 11 And you usually bumped it up to MR. ZITOUNI: the, it goes by 50s. No, because you don't have Right? MR. SHACKLEFORD: 14 15 Yes. give yourself a little buffer -- 12 13 And you said you set on the MDA on Yes, yes. You can just set -- 16 MR. ZITOUNI: If you look, here -- 17 MR. SHACKLEFORD: If it's at 471, and so if 18 you're going to have to set something, you might as 19 well set it to the next higher value so you give 20 yourself a little buffer. MR. ETCHER: 21 22 increments? 23 MR. ZITOUNI: 24 MR. ETCHER: 25 So it only does it in 50 foot Yes. So you have to do either 450 or 500? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 61 1 MR. ZITOUNI: 2 MR. ETCHER: 3 Yes, so you always go higher. Okay. Okay. And you always do that on the radar altimeter? 4 MR. ZITOUNI: 5 MR. ETCHER: Yes, sir. Okay. How about your altitude 6 select knob? Is that in 50-foot increments as well? 7 Or is that in 100-foot increments or something more 8 precise? MR. ZITOUNI: 9 10 MR. ETCHER: 11 MR. ZITOUNI: Hundred. Hundred? Okay. So, yes, you would put 12 something 600 instead of, what is it? 13 instead of 473. 14 MR. ETCHER: 15 MR. ZITOUNI: 16 You put 500 Okay. Or no, actually no. You would put 1,600. 17 MR. ETCHER: 18 MR. ZITOUNI: Okay. Sorry, 500 on the altitude 19 (inaudible) off of the radar altimeter, and on the 20 altitude (inaudible), you would put the 1,600. 21 MR. ETCHER: 22 MR. SHACKLEFORD: 23 Five hundred feet above (inaudible) for sure, whatever. MR. ETCHER: 24 25 Okay. Now when you, you did a great job briefing it, because that's one of the only two NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 62 1 questions I had on that. 2 MR. ZITOUNI: 3 MR. ETCHER: So thank you. Okay. You also said that when you 4 flew your localizer approach into Macon, Georgia, or 5 any approach for instance -- 6 MR. ZITOUNI: 7 MR. ETCHER: Yes. With the accident Captain, did 8 he ever brief you on the weather before you left or 9 did, how did you guys know what the weather was like en 10 route or at your destination if you were legal to fly 11 there? 12 it a procedure that you guys talked about it? 13 it all work? I'm just kind of trying to figure out, is, was MR. ZITOUNI: 14 How did Well, we check the weather 15 before we leave, and then on long flights like this, 16 because we flew from Denver, we got an update from 17 Flight Watch. You know, on the, over our frequency. And I often do it, call a flight service 18 19 station up in the air and get an updated weather of the 20 destination. MR. ETCHER: 21 22 Now, did you guys, when you were in Denver, take that one for instance -- 23 MR. ZITOUNI: 24 MR. ETCHER: 25 Okay. for you. Yes, yes. Because that was a recent one When you were in Denver, getting ready to go, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 63 1 and he printed out the weather, did you guys both look 2 it over, decide if you're legal to go there? 3 -- 4 MR. ZITOUNI: 5 MR. ETCHER: 6 MR. ZITOUNI: 7 Decide if Of course, yes, yes, yes. Okay. So you did -- For every flight. For every flight we did. 8 MR. ETCHER: 9 MR. ZITOUNI: 10 MR. ETCHER: 11 MR. ZITOUNI: 12 MR. ETCHER: For every flight? Yes. Okay. Every flight we did this. All righty. 13 one last question. 14 so thank you. 15 the Captain's responsible for. That's how great of a job you did, Listening to all you talked with what 16 MR. ZITOUNI: 17 MR. ETCHER: Yes. Seems like it's a busy workload 18 environment for the Captain. 19 lot to you as a First Officer? 20 Things along that line. 21 in a little bit? MR. ZITOUNI: 22 Now I just have Does it get delegated a What gets delegated? Can you kind of help fill me Yes. Okay, we'll start from 23 the beginning. You can find the flight plan, okay? 24 But it's always, you know, it's a two crew, it's a two 25 man operation, so if it is my Captain, I find the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 64 1 flight plan, I'm sure he's going to check the flight 2 plan. You know, everything is double checked. 3 4 I can do this. 5 fueling. 6 cannot delegate to me. 7 that's it. Brief the passengers. Monitor the He does nothing he Because I'm a pilot also, and Yes, does that answer your question? MR. ETCHER: 8 9 I can pre-fly the plane. So It does. Does it get delegated, I guess, what kind of items typically get 10 delegated to you? 11 any Captain. Whether the accident Captain or just Is there any standard -- MR. ZITOUNI: 12 Pre-flight inspection. 13 Fueling, we monitor the fueling. 14 That's it. MR. ETCHER: 15 Okay. Passenger briefing. You don't have to weigh 16 the passengers or is that kind of a, is that what the 17 Captain does? 18 MR. ZITOUNI: 19 MR. ETCHER: 20 Okay. I guess you've answered my questions. 21 MR. ZITOUNI: 22 MR. ETCHER: 23 Yes. with me. All right. So you can breath. You're done How's that? 24 MR. ZITOUNI: 25 MR. LAWRENCE: All right. Excellent. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 65 1 MR. ZITOUNI: 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. SHACKLEFORD: MR. LAWRENCE: 7 MR. ZITOUNI: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. ZITOUNI: Great. All right, so -We have -Yes, we need to clarify something, okay? 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 give you an opportunity. 13 MR. ZITOUNI: 14 MR. LAWRENCE: 15 Oh, no, I'm fine right now. 6 10 Donnie, do you have a few follow ups? 4 5 I'm relieved. Okay. Well, I'm going to Okay. John, on the phone, do you have any follow ups for Nabil? MR. DRAGO: 16 I do. Just a couple. Sean, 17 thank you for catching those that I mentioned earlier. 18 Hello, Nabil. 19 MR. ZITOUNI: 20 MR. DRAGO: Hello. John Drago with the FAA. I just 21 wanted to ask, maybe, did you use, in your experience, 22 do any of your pilots use electronic flight bags, 23 whether it be iPads or some other device? 24 MR. ZITOUNI: 25 MR. DRAGO: No. No, sir. For approach procedures? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 66 1 MR. ZITOUNI: 2 electronic flight bags. MR. DRAGO: 3 We are not approved for Okay. What type of approach 4 plates were in use in your company? 5 government NOS or are they Jeppesen? 6 MR. ZITOUNI: 7 MR. DRAGO: 8 MR. ZITOUNI: 9 MR. DRAGO: 10 much. Do you use the Jeppesen. Jeppesen for everything? Yes, sir. Okay. Okay, thank you very David, that's really all that I have. MR. LAWRENCE: 11 Great. I just thought of 12 something I want to make sure. You said Jeppesen 13 plates. 14 to the aircraft or do you get issued Jeppesen plates? Are they on the aircraft? MR. ZITOUNI: 15 No. Are they assigned What we do is we have a 16 server, and we do a flight folder between, before every 17 flight we print the, we go to the server, we print the 18 departure approach plates, on the plates, the right 19 hold, the alternate, if there's an alternate, and the 20 end route. 21 MR. LAWRENCE: Okay. 22 MR. ZITOUNI: 23 MR. LAWRENCE: 24 had to divert when you're en route? 25 an approach plate? Okay? What about if, what if you How would you get NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 67 MR. ZITOUNI: 1 2 Divert to our alternate or to a different airport. MR. LAWRENCE: 3 Different airport. Do you 4 have a jet binder in the airplane that's got all the 5 charts, or do you bring it? 6 transcont, going to Los Angeles from Fort Lauderdale -- 7 MR. ZITOUNI: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 Or, if you're flying We don't have the range. Okay. Well, if you're going to go wherever the range is, okay? And you had a 10 problem and you had to divert, you had a maintenance 11 issue in flight, and you had to divert. 12 MR. ZITOUNI: 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 Yes. How would you pick up the approach plate for a diverted airport? 15 MR. ZITOUNI: 16 MR. LAWRENCE: 17 MR. ZITOUNI: 18 MR. LAWRENCE: That's a good question. So you only have the -We have the route that we fly. So there's not a, I just want 19 to be clear, there is not a binder in the airplane, and 20 you guys don't have a binder of Jepp charts? MR. ZITOUNI: 21 22 Of, like, USA and stuff like this? 23 MR. LAWRENCE: 24 MR. ZITOUNI: 25 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. No. Okay. Okay. I'm just, I NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 68 1 heard Jepps and all that. 2 job, Nabil. 3 your opportunity. 4 Thanks. 5 opportunity to add or clarify? I don't have any, we're going to give you Is there any, more paperwork. Is there anything you would like an 6 MR. ZITOUNI: 7 MR. LAWRENCE: 8 MR. ZITOUNI: 9 Really, you've done a great Yes. You know, what? Okay. When you asked me about a standard stabilized approach, I said there's nothing 10 here in the GOM. I'm talking about SOP right here. 11 And in the GOM, but it's in the training manual. 12 MR. LAWRENCE: 13 MR. ZITOUNI: Yes. Okay. So we have a policy for 14 stabilized non-precision approach, but it's in the 15 flight training manual of ExecuFlight. 16 MR. LAWRENCE: 17 MR. ZITOUNI: 18 MR. JAHR: 19 Chris? You got a question for me? MR. ZITOUNI: 21 MR. JAHR: 22 MR. LAWRENCE: No? No, I'm just looking at you. Okay. Anything that maybe I didn't ask that you wanted to add or -MR. ZITOUNI: 24 25 All right. Yes, sir. 20 23 Okay? No. Actually I don't have a brain anymore. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 69 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. ZITOUNI: 3 MR. LAWRENCE: 4 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 5 Oh, stop. Okay. It's liquid. All right. Thank you, Nabil. off the record at an undisclosed time.) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 70 C E R T I F I C A T E MATTER: Execuflight Hawker Accident Akron, OH, November 10, 2015 Accident No. CEN16MA036 Interview of Nabil Zitouni DATE: December 2, 2015 * IFSFCZ DFSUJGZ UIBU UIF BUUBDIFE USBOTDSJQUJPO PG QBHF 1 to 70 inclusive are to the best of my QSPGFTTJPOBM ability a true, accurate, and complete record of the above referenced proceedings as contained on the provided audio recording GVSUIFS UIBU * BN OFJUIFS DPVOTFM GPS OPS SFMBUFE UP OPS FNQMPZFE CZ BOZ PG UIF QBSUJFT UP UIJT BDUJPO JO XIJDI UIJT QSPDFFEJOH IBT UBLFO QMBDF BOE GVSUIFS UIBU * BN OPU GJOBODJBMMZ OPS PUIFSXJTF JOUFSFTUFE JO UIF PVUDPNF PG UIF BDUJPO. ----------------------- NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD -----------------------------: IN RE: : : THE EXECUFLIGHT HAWKER : NTSB Accident No. ACCIDENT THAT OCCURRED IN : CEN16MA036 AKRON, OHIO ON NOVEMBER 10, : 2015 : : -----------------------------: INTERVIEW OF: RICHARD RUVIDO Wednesday, December 2, 2015 Banyon Aviation Ft. Lauderdale Executive Airport Ft. Lauderdale, Florida BEFORE DAVID LAWRENCE, Investigator, NTSB SEAN ETCHER, Investigator, NTSB NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Interviewee: CHRISTOPHER JAHR, ESQ. Wicker Smith O'Hara McCoy & Ford P.A. SunTrust Center 515 East Las Olas Boulevard, Suite 1400 Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 Tel.: (954) Fax: (954) On Behalf of ExecuFlight: DONNIE SHACKLEFORD On Behalf of the Federal Aviation Administration: JOHN DRAGO* *Present by teleconference NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 3 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1 (Time not given) 2 INVESTIGATOR 3 LAWRENCE: All right, My name is Captain David Lawrence. good 4 morning. 5 the 6 Investigator with the NTSB on the ExecuFlight Hawker 7 accident that occurred in Akron, Ohio, last month. National Transportation Safety I'm with Board, and I'm 8 My primary role here is, just, to simply learn 9 what I can about the accident, so I can assist in, 10 obviously, preventing it from reoccurring. As part of 11 our process, we invite the parties in to participate in 12 the investigation to provide us technical expertise for 13 this group. We have the NTSB, ExecuFlight Tech (inaudible) 14 15 and the FAA. 16 allow everyone an opportunity to introduce themselves and 17 say their affiliation. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 18 19 I'll go around the room right now and I'll RESPONDENT: 21 MR. JAHR: Good morning. My name is Christopher Jahr with the Wicker Smith Law Firm. MR. SHACKLEFORD: 23 24 I'm Sean Etcher with the NTSB. 20 22 Good morning. Donnie Shackleford, Captain with the ExecuFlight on the Hawker. RESPONDENT: 25 Richard Ruvido, Chief Pilot, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 4 1 ExecuFlight. 2 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 MR. DRAGO: 4 with the FAA. On the phone? Hey, good morning. John Drago I'm an Operations Inspector. 5 RESPONDENT: 6 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: And FAA's role, do you 7 Good morning. want to, kind of, explain that, John? MR. DRAGO: 8 Sure. Thank you, David. I am a 9 participant to the Operations Group on the NTSB team, so 10 my involvement is, strictly, to help support that effort 11 for finding out the facts here, and has nothing to do 12 with any type of things that we're normally associated 13 with, which, any type of violation, or coming back on 14 pilot types. 15 about and helping support the investigation. 16 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: So again, my role here is just learning Great. Thanks, John. 17 As you've been informed of earlier, too, Rich, that, I 18 mean, can I call you Rich, is that all right? 19 RESPONDENT: Sure. 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 21 RESPONDENT: 22 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: You're welcome to have 23 one representative of your choice, is Chris your choice, 24 to sit in? Okay. Yes. (No response) 25 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 5 1 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 2 RESPONDENT: 3 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 4 Yes. Okay, great. That's the problem with -- 5 RESPONDENT: 6 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 7 Yes? Okay. -- nodding, we didn't get it with the -- 8 RESPONDENT: I'll give you (inaudible). 9 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: There you go. Also, 10 as part of the process, as you've been previously briefed 11 on that, I'll record the interview and we'll have a 12 transcription 13 eventually become part of the factual record. Audio will 14 not be part of the public docket. 15 RESPONDENT: 16 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 17 RESPONDENT: 18 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Standard stuff that I, 19 kind of, you know, brief the guys I talk to, I'm just 20 going to take some notes. 21 like, like this -- made of the interview, which will Any questions? Not yet. Okay. Yes. And, I'm old school, I type 22 RESPONDENT: Okay. 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: -- sometimes, so I 24 apologize, if I'm not making contact, as we go through 25 this. If you don't understand a question that I ask, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 6 1 please, stop, ask me to clarify it, you know? 2 My role here is just to learn and, as the 3 Chief Pilot and, obviously, somebody that was familiar 4 with the pilots and the operation that's the reason why 5 we want to talk to you, so I get to learn from you. Conversely, if there's something I'm 6 not 7 quite getting, this is not an opportunity to try to trip 8 somebody up, I'm learning from you, so I want to get as 9 best information, so if I'm not getting it quite, maybe 10 we can come at another angle and learn, make sure I get 11 it. 12 beginning. Standard stuff, let me start off at the very If I can get your full name and age, please? 13 RESPONDENT: 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 RESPONDENT: 16 Can you spell Ruvido? Romeo, Uniform, Victor, India, Delta, Oscar. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. And, I'm sorry, 17 18 Richard James Ruvido, age 33. 33? 19 RESPONDENT: 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Great, thanks. What's 21 33. your current title? 22 RESPONDENT: Chief Pilot. 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 24 RESPONDENT: 25 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: For? ExecuFlight. Great. And how long NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 7 1 have you been in that position? 2 RESPONDENT: 3 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 4 RESPONDENT: 5 March of 2014. Roughly, the exact date, I believe, is March 2014. 6 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 7 RESPONDENT: 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 hire with ExecuFlight? 10 RESPONDENT: 11 All right. Okay. Yes. When was your date of August 2011. I'm sorry, 2007. 2007. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 12 13 brief cliff notes version 14 responsibilities, as Chief Pilot. 15 RESPONDENT: Okay. Great. of your And, just a roles and Well, it's to make sure 16 that the pilots receive the proper simulator training and 17 make sure they're scheduled for it. 18 the day-to-day operations in the company. 19 INVESTIGATOR 20 Director of Operations? LAWRENCE: 21 RESPONDENT: 22 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 23 Okay. Who's the Robert Adamo, at the time. At the time of the accident? RESPONDENT: 24 25 And assist the DL in Well, I'm not, he was, he recently resigned, and I believe that was before the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 8 1 accident. 2 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 RESPONDENT: 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 5 Okay. The exact date, I'm not sure of. Okay. So who is currently assuming that role? 6 RESPONDENT: At the moment, no one -- 7 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 8 RESPONDENT: 9 INVESTIGATOR Okay. -- with, with the title. LAWRENCE: Okay. Okay, for 10 yours, and I just record this, to make sure that we have 11 this information, your certificates and type ratings? RESPONDENT: ATP flight instructor, instrument 12 13 multi-engine, single CFIIMEI. 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 RESPONDENT: Type rating's G-1159 HS-125, it's 16 CL601, or CL600, it's the Challenger 601, and the IA Jet 17 Westwind. INVESTIGATOR 18 19 Okay. LAWRENCE: Westwind. Great. Current medical? 20 RESPONDENT: First Class. 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 RESPONDENT: 23 INVESTIGATOR Limitations? Corrective lenses. LAWRENCE: Okay. And, the 24 aircraft that you're currently qualified and fly at 25 ExecuFlight? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 9 1 RESPONDENT: The HS-125 and the G-1159. 2 INVESTIGATOR 3 estimate of your total flying time? LAWRENCE: 4 RESPONDENT: 5 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 6 flying time in the Hawker series? 7 RESPONDENT: 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 10 Just an Seventeen hundred hours. Yes. And, just your I estimate around 4,000 hours. Okay. How much of that is, is there a split between the 700 and 800? Could you, kind of, give me, maybe, a percentage, or something? RESPONDENT: 11 12 Okay. You could probably divide it in half, I would say. 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 RESPONDENT: 15 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: RESPONDENT: Command time is, I'd say, and 16 Just off -Pilot and command this is an estimate here, -- 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 RESPONDENT: 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 Great. time? 17 18 (Inaudible.) Sure. -- about 6,300 hours. Okay, and PIC time in the Hawker? 23 RESPONDENT: PIC time is -- 24 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 RESPONDENT: Just an estimate. -- 3,500 hours. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 10 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 Great. And just a 2 brief cliff note's version of your aviation background, 3 what did you do prior to leading up to ExecuFlight? RESPONDENT: 4 I was working for an owner, Part 5 91, flying a Hawker. It was an HS, well, HS-125 is a, it 6 was a 400 Series Fan Conversion. 7 in Palm Beach and I worked there about two years, flying, 8 just for the owner, directly -INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 RESPONDENT: 10 And that was based up Right, okay. -- Part 91. And a little bit 11 before that, I started out with another company, down in 12 Fort Lauderdale, doing the same thing, flying managed 13 Part 91 airplanes, Hawker 800s, 700s. 14 back about 11 years, since that began. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 16 RESPONDENT: 18 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Also you're Yes. Okay. All right. You've flown with either Oscar or Renata (phonetic) -- 20 RESPONDENT: 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 Okay. flying up within -- 17 19 So that's going Yes. -- before? Who and which, both, or -RESPONDENT: 23 I flew with both. 24 Oscar on this 299 line check. 25 was observed by an I flew with I was observing him and I inspector. It was for NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 the 11 1 qualification for my line check authorization to be Chief 2 Airman. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 4 Great. So what about Renata? 5 RESPONDENT: And Renata I flew with, as well. 6 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. Let me, kind 7 of, first off, start with, we'll come back to Renata 8 (phonetic), let's talk about the Captain, first. 9 often did you fly with it, just a line, that line check 10 for your observation work? 11 RESPONDENT: 12 INVESTIGATOR 13 Yes. LAWRENCE: RESPONDENT: 15 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 16 RESPONDENT: General Fantastic. Okay. I was very impressed with his, with his flying ability and his procedures. INVESTIGATOR 18 19 Okay. impressions, how did he do? 14 17 How LAWRENCE: Okay. Can you characterize his command of the cockpit, or -RESPONDENT: 20 Command was, in characterizing 21 it, let's see, put in words, competent and capable of 22 asking, I was sitting in the right seat, so I think he 23 was very, very confident. INVESTIGATOR 24 25 LAWRENCE: All right. I understand it's, it's almost a difficult question in that NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 12 1 particular training environment in checking, checking. 2 RESPONDENT: 3 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 4 bit different. Sure. Yes, so it's a little Did you, did you hire Oscar? 5 RESPONDENT: The hiring was done by the owner. 6 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 7 RESPONDENT: 8 They came into contact with the owner -INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 RESPONDENT: 10 11 Okay. Okay. -- and was cross-referenced with me. 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 RESPONDENT: Okay. And the owner said, hey, I have 14 this gentleman and what do you think? 15 it, initially, it was done by the owner -- 16 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 17 RESPONDENT: 18 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: I said, good. So Okay. -- and I agreed with it. Okay. Well, was it 19 just the owner coming to you talking to him, or did he 20 provide you any records, or anything like that, to say 21 here's a guy, or -- 22 RESPONDENT: 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 24 RESPONDENT: 25 He had --- work him. -- good references from other pilots that are a part of our operation, separate to this NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 13 1 company. 2 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 RESPONDENT: 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 5 He came highly recommended. Okay. Where did he come from? RESPONDENT: 6 7 All right. He came from, his last job was with Central Charter, based out of Bogota, Columbia. 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 RESPONDENT: It's my recollection. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 10 Okay. Okay. By the way, I 11 should have mentioned this earlier, if you don't know the 12 answer to something, just say it. 13 RESPONDENT: 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 Okay. I don't know is a perfectly acceptable answer. 16 RESPONDENT: 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. Did you all do, 18 Okay. or are you aware if they did a PREA background check? 19 RESPONDENT: 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. Did you see the 21 Yes. PREA? 22 RESPONDENT: 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 24 I did see the PREA. Okay. I want to show it to you, because I just had a couple of questions. RESPONDENT: 25 Sure. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 You sent it over and 2 I appreciate you sending that information, but I want to 3 be sure I'm reading some things correctly. 4 the company -- 5 RESPONDENT: 6 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 7 Yes, results. You can come over and look, Chris, if you want to. 8 MR. JAHR: 9 (Off microphone discussion) Sure. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 10 11 Was that the, So I think it's just easier for, maybe, you to explain some of this, and I -- 12 RESPONDENT: Sure. 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: -- just want to make 14 sure I'm clear on a few of these things. 15 Results is the company that you hired to do a PREA 16 background check on your pilots? 17 RESPONDENT: 18 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 19 So that was, Correct. Okay. Does the owner do this, or did you do this? 20 RESPONDENT: I do this. 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Oh, okay. So they did 22 this and they provided some information here. 23 of 24 complete, I can understand where it says not requested, 25 but where it says not verified, complete, what does that the stuff is just, I don't know, not And some verified, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 15 1 mean? RESPONDENT: 2 3 Well it's, this printout, when this was a status -- okay. This was a report status -- 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 5 RESPONDENT: Okay. -- in progress. So the, this 6 should, but the final copy of this should have, this 7 should be a different answer here. 8 INVESTIGATOR 9 LAWRENCE: so the end progress means, this is just in a transition, then? 10 RESPONDENT: 11 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 12 RESPONDENT: 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 Okay, Correct, because -Okay. -- you -Do you have a final copy of the results? 15 RESPONDENT: 16 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay, this is all that 17 I do. you sent me, so that's all I was going by. 18 RESPONDENT: 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Can I get a final copy 20 Okay. of the progress, the final PREA results? 21 RESPONDENT: 22 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 23 RESPONDENT: 24 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 Yes. Okay. I have it, yes. Can I get that listed as a deliverable? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 16 1 MR. JAHR: 2 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Thanks. That was what 3 Sure. I was, kind of, and so -- 4 RESPONDENT: 5 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: -- I just want to make 6 Okay. sure. 7 RESPONDENT: Yes, this is the status check and 8 it, this is what I asked for, just to see where they were 9 -- 10 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 RESPONDENT: 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 -- in their --- they listed this company, this company here, Heralpin -- 14 RESPONDENT: 15 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 16 Yes, and -- Okay. -- H-E-R-A-L-P-I-N, USA, as his previous employer. 17 RESPONDENT: Okay. 18 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. Without having 19 the actual final PREA in possession here, just on your 20 memory, do you know if they went to them and contacted 21 them to find out -- 22 RESPONDENT: I'm not, I'm -- 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 24 RESPONDENT: 25 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: -- maybe why he left? No. Okay. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 17 1 RESPONDENT: I don't. 2 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: All right. So yes, if 3 I could get a copy of the final -- 4 RESPONDENT: 5 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: be helpful. Sure. Do 6 probably 7 difficulties in previous employers? know 8 RESPONDENT: 9 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 10 No. you -- one that would he had any No I don't. Okay. Do you know if he had any FAA enforcement actions? 11 RESPONDENT: 12 FOI that came out, which is here. 13 the administrative level -- There, yes, well there was this 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 RESPONDENT: 16 if And it was handled at Okay. -- and it was disclosed to me, but handled at the administrative level with the FAA. INVESTIGATOR 17 LAWRENCE: Did you have an 18 opportunity, during the hiring process, after learning 19 about this, to maybe talk to Oscar about this? 20 RESPONDENT: I did. To remember what, what he 21 said, I, I think that was a conversation that was many 22 months ago, but, I got the general gist of what, where 23 they 24 instruction. 25 he said he did some remedial training with the FAA and, were and what happened, as it says here, So -- but, I asked what the outcome was and NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 ATC COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 18 1 and I said okay, well thank you for disclosing that to 2 me. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 4 to Renata, how was he to fly with? 5 RESPONDENT: 6 He was Okay, thanks. a guy, very professional. 7 (Off microphone discussion) 8 RESPONDENT: 9 great Going Very, very methodical. I mean, some people are more methodical than others, naturally, 10 in the way we're wired, but he was, he was that guy. 11 very, very knowledgeable of the airplane. 12 flying it, I think he had some, some experience in the 13 airplane. 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 RESPONDENT: 16 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: And I know he was Okay. So. So for, with Renata, 17 you had the opportunity to fly with him on 135 flights, 18 correct? 19 RESPONDENT: 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 21 most of the legs 22 alternate legs? with Correct. Okay. passengers, 23 RESPONDENT: 24 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 RESPONDENT: or Did you fly did you I flew the passenger legs. Okay. And I flew, he flew the empty. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 guys COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 Okay. And that's 2 consistent with what other people told us. I'm just, 3 kind of, curious if that's, is that a policy for the 4 Captain to fly the passenger legs, or is it just -- 5 RESPONDENT: 6 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. Why is it? Why 7 do you guys do that? RESPONDENT: Well, in this instance, I, I only 8 9 No. flew with, with him on one, or two, trips. 10 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 RESPONDENT: Yes. I think one, one trip. And I 12 know that Donnie has flown with him more than I have and 13 spoken very highly of him, but I was in the, the process 14 of, if I'm going to fly with someone, for the first time, 15 I'm going to do the flying. 16 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 17 RESPONDENT: 18 Okay. And allow other legs to, to present the opportunity for the other pilot to fly. 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: So how often would the 20 First Officers on a two, or three-day, charter say, in 21 general, get an opportunity to fly? RESPONDENT: 22 23 Well, ideally, it's every other leg. 24 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 RESPONDENT: Okay. So maybe -- That, that's the way it -- NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 So typically when a 2 charter goes out, do the crews go out and they take the 3 passengers out to wherever they are and stay with them 4 and then they fly them someplace else, and fly them 5 someplace else, and are there empty leg opportunities, 6 within the charter, for the First Officer to be able to 7 fly? 8 RESPONDENT: 9 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 10 There are. Okay. How often does that occur? RESPONDENT: 11 I would say, considering where 12 we're based and where trips originate, Miami, Palm Beach, 13 the percentage of the time is high, it's, I mean, you can 14 call it, 40 percent of the time we have a reposition leg. 15 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 16 RESPONDENT: 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. That's just a guesstimate. Okay. Okay that's 18 just for passengers and empty legs, let me ask you about, 19 say, instrument purchase, or say the weather's down, do 20 you, or other captains, tend to fly those legs, whether 21 they're passengers are empty, just because it's lower 22 weather? RESPONDENT: 23 24 Well, it's the Captain's discretion. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 Okay. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 21 RESPONDENT: 1 And, if, if the Captain feels 2 that he has a competent person in the right seat, it's at 3 his discretion. INVESTIGATOR 4 LAWRENCE: Are your First 5 Officers are trained and qualified at a semi (phonetic) 6 flight, right? 7 RESPONDENT: 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 current and qualified. 10 RESPONDENT: 11 INVESTIGATOR 12 Correct. Okay. So they're Are they all typed? No. LAWRENCE: Okay. Who's not typed? 13 RESPONDENT: Nabil. 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. Have you, in 15 general -- well, I'll come back to that little bit later. 16 Did you get an opportunity to talk to Oscar, or Renata, 17 outside of work and, kind of, get to know them a little 18 bit better outside of this work environment? RESPONDENT: Not, not heavily, no, compared to 19 20 other people that have worked here. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 21 Were you aware if 22 there were any issues -- and I'll talk about Renata, or 23 Oscar, first. 24 any issues he may have been having at home, whether 25 family, financial, or anything like that? Are you aware, or seen anybody, related to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 22 RESPONDENT: 1 2 Not to my knowledge, no. No, no issues. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 Okay. Did Oscar, 4 himself, come to you with any concerns, either about not 5 just family, or financials, but maybe about the company, 6 did he have any concerns about the flying, the company -- 7 RESPONDENT: 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: -- anything like that? 9 RESPONDENT: 10 time off. No. Just time off, asking for the Hey, can I have this day off, et cetera, so. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 Okay. Okay, Renata, 12 talking about him, did you learn, or did anybody come to 13 you 14 financial, or anything like that? about concerns that he may be having at home, RESPONDENT: No, he was, the last conversation 15 16 I had with him was real positive. 17 be a happy person, happily married with a child at home. 18 I mean, just, just a, no, no signals, no flags, no. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 19 He was, he seemed to Okay. Renata was 20 flying, did he, and I think I, maybe, mentioned this when 21 I 22 procedures? asked about Oscar, but did 23 RESPONDENT: 24 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 Renata asking he follow company Yes. contrary to Did you ever observe company procedures, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 or 23 1 regulations? 2 RESPONDENT: No. 3 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. Let me just 4 talk about charter operations, in general, a second. 5 the way, how you doing? Need a break, or anything? 6 RESPONDENT: 7 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 8 RESPONDENT: 9 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 10 By Yes, if I can take the -Yes. -- latrine, urinal break? Yes, exactly. Let me stop this. 11 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter went off the 12 record at (time not given) and went back on the record at 13 (time not given)) INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 Okay, went back on 15 and, let me just, I want to talk about, or ask about just 16 charter operations, in general. 17 to concentrate on this particular trip. 18 charter, how was it paid for, and did this charter come 19 to you from a third party source? 20 RESPONDENT: It, But, before I do, I want okay, Who bought this the process goes 21 through our sales department. They were contacted by a 22 company called, it escapes me. 23 we've done business with them, previously, and they were 24 a charter broker company that had the client list that 25 calls us, the operator, to meet the, the need of the I forget the name, but NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 24 1 trip. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 2 from this real estate I'm just curious, who 3 did, 4 charter this, they pick up the phone, who do they contact 5 that initial -RESPONDENT: 6 company that decided to They contact their, their source 7 of, it -- I can give you the name, if I have some, I have 8 paperwork, then I might -INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 Sure. Sure. 10 RESPONDENT: -- just pull that name out. 11 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Yes. 12 RESPONDENT: We deal with a lot of I'll know. 13 different brokers, it's hard to keep up with them all, 14 so. Do you remember the name of the company? 15 MR. JAHR: 16 (Off microphone discussion) 17 MR. JAHR: 18 No, I don't remember it. I know the passengers were out of Boca, but I'm not sure the company that they -- 19 (Off microphone discussion) 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: I'm going to pause the 21 recording a second. 22 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter went off the 23 record at (time not given) and went back on the record at 24 (time not given)) INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: But it leads me to the 25 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 25 1 next obvious question, who had operational control of 2 this flight? 3 RESPONDENT: 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 5 I did. Okay. And then -- that's okay. 6 RESPONDENT: 7 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 8 RESPONDENT: 9 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Tell me how the pilots 10 at ExecuFlight are scheduled, particularly, the Hawker 11 pilots. RESPONDENT: 12 Okay. Yes (inaudible). Okay. Well, the trip requests come in 13 through our sales department and they book, the sales 14 department, will book the trip, and then place names on 15 the trip, pilot names. They could also ask me, you know, who would 16 17 you like to fly this trip? But the sales department, 18 considering I only had the time. 19 company. I mean, we're not a big 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 21 RESPONDENT: And Right. crew pairings and 22 assignments, if you would compare it to an airline with 23 crew scheduling, it's -- 24 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 RESPONDENT: Yes. -- it's done through the sales NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 26 1 department. INVESTIGATOR 2 LAWRENCE: Okay. 3 rotational? 4 are they all on call and you get to pick -- is it I mean, is there somebody, like, on call, RESPONDENT: 5 So If, you know, you could say 6 there's a rotation with -- if people need time off, I'll 7 fill in. I fly backup in that airplane. 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 RESPONDENT: 10 Okay. So the crew can get their time off, if they request. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 Got it. So how often 12 are these Hawkers actually flying charters, say, in a 13 month? 14 generally. I know it's variable, I understand. RESPONDENT: 15 16 Just off, just off the top of my head, I'd say, 50 hours a month. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: That's all of them, or 17 18 each of them? RESPONDENT: 19 It, you could say each of them. 20 It's, it seems to be a round figure on that. 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 RESPONDENT: 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 24 But, just (Inaudible.) So. And, how are your pilots compensated? RESPONDENT: 25 They're on salary. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 27 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 2 RESPONDENT: 4 INVESTIGATOR There is a contract. LAWRENCE: Okay. Is it a training contract? RESPONDENT: A training, yes there is, I'm not 6 7 Is there a training contract on when a pilot comes on? 3 5 Okay. too familiar with the details -- 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. 9 RESPONDENT: -- of it, with these gentlemen -- 10 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. 11 RESPONDENT: 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Right. 13 RESPONDENT: something -- from the accident case. That's that the 14 Director of Ops drafted up and cross-checked with the 15 owner. INVESTIGATOR 16 LAWRENCE: Okay. To your 17 knowledge, has any pilot at ExecuFlight, during your 18 tenure there, either as a pilot, or as a Chief Pilot, 19 ever not completed, or satisfied, the training contract? 20 RESPONDENT: It has happened. 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 RESPONDENT: 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 24 RESPONDENT: 25 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: And, just to be clear, Okay. Not recently, though. Okay. I don't -- NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 28 1 were either 2 contract? one of these pilots 3 RESPONDENT: 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: under a training Yes. Okay. We'll talk a 5 little bit more about the training in a little bit. 6 me understand something. 7 term for a certain sales people called dispatchers, so I 8 wanted to make -RESPONDENT: 9 11 I heard that you guys have a It's -- INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 10 Help -- sure I understand this. 12 RESPONDENT: 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 RESPONDENT: 15 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 16 RESPONDENT: The term's used loosely, but it's 17 They're sales. It's not dispatch. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 19 RESPONDENT: 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Yes. We don't have dispatch. And I just want to be clear, coming from the 121 side, and I understand -- 22 RESPONDENT: 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 24 All right. -- 18 21 Okay. Yes. -- I understand where -RESPONDENT: 25 Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 29 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 -- (inaudible), okay? 2 But so I'm clear, too, as far as their function, you said 3 they're sales reps, do they do any flight planning? RESPONDENT: 4 5 flight planning. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 6 7 It's the pilots that do the Got it. Weight and balance? 8 RESPONDENT: No. 9 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 10 RESPONDENT: 11 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 12 RESPONDENT: 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: They don't do? No. Okay. No. And, do they provide 14 any weather, or weather briefing, information to the 15 pilot? 16 RESPONDENT: 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 18 RESPONDENT: 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 It's up to the pilot -Okay. -- the Captain. What information is the sales rep/dispatcher providing to the pilot? RESPONDENT: 21 He's providing the, the trip 22 sheet, the trip sheet and, and to direct any additional 23 information/correspondence during the trip, coming from 24 passengers requesting, let's say, catering, or -INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 All right. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 30 RESPONDENT: -- just, the Sales sells the trip 1 2 and it's their trip until the trip is over. 3 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 4 RESPONDENT: Got it. So the contact is between sales, 5 the pilots, the customer, and the whole crew. 6 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 7 the pilots overnight? 8 RESPONDENT: 9 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Meaning the hotels? 10 RESPONDENT: 11 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 12 RESPONDENT: 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 Who schedules where Yes. And who does the hotels? Yes. The pilots. The pilots do? They just find their own hotel? RESPONDENT: 15 They 16 permitting, Sales can do it. 17 some hotels for us? can do them, or time Hey, could you guys get But the pilots. I do my own hotels. 18 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. Generally, who 19 files the flight plans and how is that done? 20 RESPONDENT: It's done, well, the captain will 21 file the flight plan, and it's done over Flightplan.com. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 23 Okay. Can you check weather on that website? 24 RESPONDENT: Yes. 25 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Is that an approved NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 31 1 source? 2 RESPONDENT: It is. 3 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. When the pilot 4 checks, or files, the flight plan, do they print anything 5 up that has to go onto the airplane? RESPONDENT: 6 7 plan, the trip sheet. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 8 9 Okay. RESPONDENT: 11 INVESTIGATOR Multiple charts. LAWRENCE: RESPONDENT: 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 RESPONDENT: 16 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. Yes they can print weather. Is that required for RESPONDENT: It is -- yes, printing the weather, yes. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 21 (Off microphone discussion) 22 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. So generally, how do pilots get their weather briefings? RESPONDENT: Flightplan.com, any source that's 24 25 the Weather? 20 23 about them to have a hard copy in? 18 19 What weather? 13 17 What about the -- 10 12 Yes they can print the flight approved by National Weather Service. We have multiple NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 32 1 online websites 2 information up. that you can go 3 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 4 RESPONDENT: 5 good, good source. and look I use Flightplan.com. It's a Presents it in a good format. Okay. What is their 7 source of weather information? 8 button and it clicks up weather, what do you get? RESPONDENT: 9 that How do you do it? INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 6 on When you hit the weather What do you get? 10 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 RESPONDENT: 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 RESPONDENT: 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 RESPONDENT: Yes. You get METARs, TAFs, NOTAMs. Okay. Yes, METARs, TAFs, NOTAMs. PIREPs? PIREPs, there is a, an option 16 where you can get a full root briefing that will include 17 all that. 18 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 19 RESPONDENT: 20 give you a lot of information, yes. INVESTIGATOR 21 22 It'll Oh, okay. LAWRENCE: Okay. Flight following procedures, describe those. RESPONDENT: 23 We, well, the Captain, or First 24 Officer can text a doors open, well, doors closed and 25 doors open, to the sales to, actually, it goes to a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 33 1 group, Sales are included, myself, the owner, and the DO, 2 and that's how we can track movements. INVESTIGATOR 3 LAWRENCE: Great. Sometimes 4 those text messages actually come in, as emails, or are 5 they always a text message? 6 RESPONDENT: Text. 7 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Text, okay. Are the 8 texts printed up, are they recorded someplace, or you 9 just look at it and write -RESPONDENT: Yes, you look at the phone. It's 10 11 there in the phone. 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 RESPONDENT: 14 And you, then what? It, well it's, with these phones nowadays, it's a lot of information can -INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 I'm sorry, where I'm 16 getting at is it documented anyplace, like, (inaudible) 17 times documented anywhere that you received from the 18 text? 19 but those are planned times, or -- 20 RESPONDENT: 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Because the trip sheets that we have show times, Plan times. Okay. How would I 22 know, or what document could I look at that would have 23 the actual out and off times, the text messages coming 24 from the Captain? RESPONDENT: 25 There wouldn't be an out and off NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 34 1 time. 2 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 RESPONDENT: 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 5 RESPONDENT: 6 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 7 RESPONDENT: 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 RESPONDENT: INVESTIGATOR 10 11 -- transmitted during -Door closed and -- -- via text. Door closed and -- Doors closed. -- door open. Yes and -- correct. LAWRENCE: Where is that recorded? 12 RESPONDENT: 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 RESPONDENT: 15 Okay. It's, it's not recorded. Okay. It's not record, it's on the phone. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 16 So if I was to ask, 17 what time was the door closed on this particular flight, 18 out of Wright Brothers, is that information anywhere? RESPONDENT: 19 20 It's available by, it's on the phone. 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 RESPONDENT: 23 Okay. It'll show the time in local time. 24 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 RESPONDENT: Okay. Message, doors closed, and the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 35 1 time of the message. 2 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 RESPONDENT: 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. That's -And I don't mean to, 5 I just want to be clear. 6 that text message, you, Sales, DO, or owner that is on 7 that distribution list that writes down what that time 8 is, anyplace, it's -RESPONDENT: 9 Also, there's nobody that takes No, it's -- 10 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 RESPONDENT: 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: -- on the phone? -- it's on the phone. Okay. And part of 13 your role, as Chief Pilot, do you go out there and ride 14 along on some of these, on these charters? 15 that there's even a jump seat on this airplane, but do 16 you ride? RESPONDENT: 17 I don't know That airplane, there was a jump 18 seat, but not -- there was a jump seat (inaudible). 19 these airplanes are different. 20 line check. No, I don't, only on a INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 21 All Okay. And you're 22 recent with your line checks, so how many line checks 23 have you done? 24 RESPONDENT: I just, two. 25 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: On which airplane? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 36 RESPONDENT: 1 2 for, Hawker for Oscar and Gulfstream for -INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 4 The Gulfstream and the Hawker And the one you did with Oscar was the one the FAA was -- 5 RESPONDENT: 6 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 7 RESPONDENT: 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Got it. So no regular 9 opportunities that you use to go out and observe the 10 That's right. crews? RESPONDENT: 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: No. Okay. Let me ask about the FAA, do they do that? 14 RESPONDENT: 15 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 16 RESPONDENT: 17 Yes. -- initial observation. 11 13 That was my -- that's regular. That has not happened. Okay. I know, I know, in the airlines But, no. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. Let me shift to 18 19 the actual airplane. And I'm specific to the accident 20 airplane, since it was a 700, just in your general 21 opinion, you go all the time in these airplanes, how was 22 the Hawker to fly? 23 RESPONDENT: How is it to fly? 24 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 RESPONDENT: Yes. It, it's a very, it's a, it has NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 37 1 excellent 2 stable platform. 3 It's, you know, compared to other airplanes I've flown, 4 it's a very nice, gentlemanly-handling airplane. It's -- characteristics. It's a stable, It just has a good solid feel to it. INVESTIGATOR 5 6 handling LAWRENCE: Low speed characteristics? RESPONDENT: 7 Low speed, it, with the 700, if 8 you compare them to the other Hawker models, like an 800 9 XP and 800, the longer wing, winglets, it, the airplane 10 will slow down relatively quickly, compared to the other 11 ones. 12 below rev speed. 13 airplane. But I know it can, it can come in at a relatively It's not a, I wouldn't call it a hot 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Yes. 15 RESPONDENT: 16 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Like other airplanes. Ever get a slow, is 17 there, have you ever had an opportunity to feel the low 18 speed handling qualities? 19 (No response) 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 21 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 22 You have to answer yes or no, for the recording? 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 24 RESPONDENT: 25 How are they? Oh, okay. Yes. Pardon me. Okay. Yes, I have and the -- you asked me how was the, how was NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 38 1 the quality of those -- 2 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Yes, how's the 3 quality? Do you have a, do you have adequate averon 4 (phonetic) control, pitch control, is it really sluggish? 5 I mean, if you get behind the curb, is it hard to get 6 sped back up, if it's configured, I mean -RESPONDENT: 7 It, with the, the engines are, 8 are crisp when, if you need the power. 9 there's a spool up -- 10 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 RESPONDENT: 12 Okay. -- compared to another, like a straight jet. 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 RESPONDENT: 15 I wouldn't say Right. But it'll handle, it'll handle nice, at low speed. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 16 I'll ask you more 17 about the, the procedures for, I'm going to ask about 18 non-precision approach, I just want to be clear what, 19 what your pilots are expected to do on that. 20 going to ask a little off-ball one, but this has been 21 asked of me, to ask you, CDR on the airplane, do you guys 22 test that, as part of your normal procedures? 23 RESPONDENT: 24 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 RESPONDENT: But I'm It's part of the -Okay. -- the checklist. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 39 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 2 Which checklist, do you remember? 3 RESPONDENT: That's in the normal (inaudible), 4 in the first part of the checklist, before engine start. 5 I'd have to look at it. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 6 Okay. Yes. I could 7 take a look at that too, but is it, is it for every 8 flight, or is it, like, just the first time you get in 9 the airplane for the day? 10 RESPONDENT: Well it, every flight. 11 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. And having not 12 seen the actual airplane, is it just one of those where 13 you push the test button, you get the needle that goes 14 (inaudible)? RESPONDENT: 15 16 This one had a, had a green button. 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 18 RESPONDENT: 19 Okay. You press the button and a green light, green light will -- 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 21 RESPONDENT: That'll be test. The other plane 22 Okay. is, is a METAR. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 23 Okay. No other test 24 that the pilot, like the, required of them to put the 25 headset in and listen to the delay, or anything like NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 40 1 that, just press the test? 2 RESPONDENT: Press the test with the button. 3 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 4 RESPONDENT: 5 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Yes. Let's talk about Got it. Or the light, I'm sorry. 6 non-precision approaches. Global question, are your 7 pilots trained to conduct non-precision approaches? 8 RESPONDENT: 9 (Off microphone discussion) do RNAV approaches? 12 RESPONDENT: 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 RESPONDENT: 15 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 16 They are trained. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Are they authorized to 10 11 They are. Yes. In the Hawker? Correct, yes. What about, and that would be a lateral flying, or -- 17 RESPONDENT: Nothing with vertical guidance -- 18 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 19 RESPONDENT: 20 (inaudible) precision. INVESTIGATOR 21 22 -- is what we're not authorized LAWRENCE: Okay. Obviously, you've seen this approach, it's the -- 23 RESPONDENT: 24 INVESTIGATOR 25 All right. Yes. LAWRENCE: You need a copy, Chris? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 41 1 MR. JAHR: Oh, no. I have it, thank you. 2 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Thanks. This is the 3 Local (inaudible) 225 approach. 4 about procedures, generally, on how to fly this in the 5 Hawker 700. 6 for (inaudible) guidance, correct? 7 RESPONDENT: 8 INVESTIGATOR 9 In general, you fly the localizer approach Correct. LAWRENCE: How would you do vertical guidance in this? 10 RESPONDENT: 11 INVESTIGATOR 12 So I just want to talk You wouldn't. LAWRENCE: Okay, so there's nothing -- 13 RESPONDENT: 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: -- electronic that you 15 provides you -RESPONDENT: 16 17 I mean -- -- like a pseudo glide slope in this -- 18 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 19 RESPONDENT: 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 21 RESPONDENT: 22 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: So how would the pilot 23 -- this instance? No. Okay, great. No. get down in altitude? RESPONDENT: 24 25 Right. They would select the MDA altitude and fly it down to the MDA, with the, you can do NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 42 1 it auto pilot, or it can be hand flown. 2 training we, we hand fly down to the MDA, doing a 3 circling 4 certification of the Hawker in an MDA, you cannot engage 5 the auto pilot. approach in a simulator, I know that in because of the 6 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 7 RESPONDENT: Certification for that particular 8 plane that'll -INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 10 RESPONDENT: 11 INVESTIGATOR 12 RESPONDENT: So this would be a hand flown. LAWRENCE: So this would be For our training, yes. When we -- to, to the MDA it has to be hand flown. MR. SHACKLEFORD: 15 16 Okay. required to be hand flown? 13 14 Right. I'm sorry to interrupt. We're asking for the accident airplane, specifically? INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 17 Right. Okay, let me 18 come back to that in a second, but I wanted to make sure 19 I understand something. 20 provided, so the pilots would select the MDA altitude and 21 fly down to it. 22 they just, would they use vertical speed? 23 to fly this on auto pilot -- So vertical guidance is not How would they fly down to it, would 24 RESPONDENT: 25 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: If they were Okay. -- let's start with NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 43 1 that. 2 MDA? Flying in on auto pilot, how would you get down to RESPONDENT: 3 You'd select the vertical and 4 input. It's a, in this airplane it's a thumbwheel on, 5 there's no rotary vertical speed selection -- 6 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 7 RESPONDENT: Okay. -- where you can, you know, put 8 the exact number you want. It's a thumbwheel. 9 that vertical speed locked in that you want, with the 10 thumb wheel, then you hit vertical speed, and it'll hold 11 vertical speed going down. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 12 You get And if we were still 13 on auto pilot, this particular aircraft, the accident 14 airplane, he's flying down to MDA, what does he have 15 setup to capture MDA? RESPONDENT: 16 If, okay. In the altitude 17 selector he has the MDA set. And it'll be altitude 18 select coming down. Flight directors will be guiding you 19 -- 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 21 RESPONDENT: 22 Correct. -- to altitude select. Once you get there, altitude hold. 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 24 MR. DRAGO: Hi, it's John. I got disconnected 25 The -- hello? and dialed back in. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 44 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 2 John. 3 upon arriving at the MDA? RESPONDENT: 5 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: To hold your, your altitude. For it to level off, at MDA? 7 RESPONDENT: 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 RESPONDENT: For, for, to hold it. Okay. Yes. 10 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 RESPONDENT: 12 Thanks, So the pilot would have to press altitude hold, 4 6 All right. Okay. Not to level off. We're talking about auto pilot? 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 RESPONDENT: Okay. I altitude select will, it 15 will hold the level off, it will level off the airplane. 16 But then, to make the next move, altitude hold. 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 18 RESPONDENT: 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Right. Okay. So there's two-finger. Got it. So on this 20 particular airplane, when I arrive at the final approach 21 (inaudible), 22 particular accident airplane, and I decide to go down to 23 the next altitude, in the altitude window, what am I 24 going to put? I'm on auto RESPONDENT: 25 pilot, on the 700, In the altitude in this airplane NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 this COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 45 1 you could separate the, the whole numbers -- I'm trying 2 to remember what this airplane looks like, with the mode 3 selector. Do you recall, and you can -- 4 MR. JAHR: 5 RESPONDENT: 6 MR. JAHR: 7 RESPONDENT: It's 100-foot. Yes, you can, you 8 can split, for example, this 1540 MDA, you can set a 15-1 9 in there, you can split the whole 1,500 number and put 10 Hundred feet. -- you can split them? It's 100 feet. 15-1 in there. 11 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 12 RESPONDENT: 13 (Crosstalk) 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 RESPONDENT: 16 MR. JAHR: 17 RESPONDENT: 18 MR. JAHR: 19 RESPONDENT: 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 21 RESPONDENT: 22 (Off microphone discussion) 23 RESPONDENT: 24 MR. SHACKLEFORD: 25 Okay. So you -- As a, as a roundup. Okay. Fifteen one? Fifteen -Maybe it'll be 16. I'm sorry. Yes. My, my math -It's okay. I -- Sixteen hundred, I'm sorry. I'll be back in about two seconds. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 46 1 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 2 RESPONDENT: 3 You can round it up to the next -INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 4 5 Okay. Okay, so you'd said 1,600 in that -- 6 RESPONDENT: 7 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 8 RESPONDENT: 9 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Got it. And if I'm on pilot, in Sixteen hundred. -- altitude window? Right. 10 auto vertical speed 11 particular airplane, will it capture that 1,600 -- 12 RESPONDENT: 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 going down, on this Yes. -- and level off? Yes. 15 RESPONDENT: Yes. 16 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Is there an altitude 17 alerter (phonetic) that warns you that you're coming down 18 to that altitude? RESPONDENT: 19 20 If you're 1,000 feet above that set altitude, you'll get a 1,000-foot annunciator. 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 RESPONDENT: And, so yes, in that case, 2,700. 23 But, in that instance, if they're crossing at 2,300 and 24 then going down, there's only, what was that, 700 feet? INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 Okay. Yes. Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 47 RESPONDENT: 1 So in that case, you wouldn't 2 get, you would get a radar altimeter AGL setting to go 3 off. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 4 5 That's where we're going next. 6 RESPONDENT: Yes. 7 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. So staying with 8 the altitude alerter, if I'm flying this on auto pilot, 9 vertical speed down to 1,600 -- 10 RESPONDENT: Sixteen hundred. 11 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: -- or whatever you 12 said in, and it will capture that altitude, the auto 13 pilot will -- 14 RESPONDENT: 15 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 16 It will capture it. -- at 1,600 and level it off? 17 RESPONDENT: Yes. 18 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 19 right, let's talk about that radar altimeter. 20 on this approach? 21 RESPONDENT: 22 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 23 RESPONDENT: 24 And you 25 altimeter input that setting, Got it. Cool. All Is it used Yes. How? You select the AGL setting here. airplane, this that number you particular could, radar in NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 that 48 1 airplane, 473, you wouldn't be able to put 473, you'd 2 have to round up. 3 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 4 RESPONDENT: 5 So it'll be four, 480, it'll do it in the tenths. 6 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 7 RESPONDENT: 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 Okay. Okay. And that -Okay. And, what is that? RESPONDENT: 10 That, that will give you your, 11 you'll get a warning of the MDA on a, on a, a light 12 that'll come out. 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 RESPONDENT: Okay. In every plane it's where the DH 15 light would be in that, where it's presented to you, it 16 would be the same thing. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 17 Okay. So it's, does 18 it, the light come on upon arriving at the MDA, which in 19 this case would be the -- 20 RESPONDENT: 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 Yes. -- a light comes on. Is there an oral alert, or anything? 23 RESPONDENT: No. 24 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 RESPONDENT: Okay. No there's not. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 49 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 How are pilots taught 2 to determine MDA, is it based on the altitude, or is it 3 based on the AGL that they were -- 4 RESPONDENT: 5 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 6 RESPONDENT: 7 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: All right. Excellent. Well the altitude. Okay. Yes, baro. 8 This has, this has been really helpful. 9 I'm on auto pilot, okay? 10 This is all when You're to hand fly this. Tell me the process to hand fly this. RESPONDENT: 11 Well, if you're coming over the 12 final approach fix, you're going to be real cognizant of 13 your descent rate, of how you initialize it, and it's 14 just a gentle nudge to get, let's say, 1,000 feet a 15 minute going, and -- 16 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 17 RESPONDENT: Gentle nudge for -- It's a gentle lead, there's not 18 much, there's no big major control inputs. 19 are -- that would be my biggest concern is, all right, 20 let's start down in a nice stable descent rate. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: Would you be flying this 21 22 from Flight Director, so that you would have -- 23 RESPONDENT: 24 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 25 And so you Yes. -- the pilot monitoring -NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 50 RESPONDENT: 1 2 You could be flying with Flight Director. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 3 doing the monitoring 5 director guidance, and you're still hand flying, okay, 6 what is the process and what's the procedure for call 7 outs, does the pilot call for it, does the pilot just do 8 it? RESPONDENT: 9 inputs, flight ahead and set MDA, and hit altitude select for me. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 12 RESPONDENT: All right. Because you are, this is the motion here. 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 RESPONDENT: 16 provide You would say, select, okay, go 11 13 to If the pilot 4 10 is Okay. Right. And to reach up and, and select, it's best for the other guy. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: And you reminded me of 17 18 a question I wanted to make sure we get on there. 19 there auto throttles -- 20 RESPONDENT: 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. Are No. -- auto throttles on 22 this? Is there any guidance in any ExecuFlight 23 manual, whether the GOM, FAM, that you use, or SOPs that 24 pilots are to use the auto pilot for these type of 25 approaches? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 51 1 RESPONDENT: 2 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 No. Okay. Is it solely pilot's discretion? 4 RESPONDENT: 5 INVESTIGATOR earlier, I Yes. LAWRENCE: did, about the you mentioned 7 because I know the pilot to be laterally guiding to an 8 airport using the FMS, do you use the FMS, as, in any 9 function of this type of non-precision approach? RESPONDENT: you And, 6 10 think Okay. You, yes, you would use, as a 11 backup, you would put the Akron NDB in there. 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 RESPONDENT: Okay. And that, you can identify that 14 on the FMS. 15 you would do that, you would put Akron in there. 17 I know that, that's, you know, that's how INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 16 FMS, That's just backup information, it's nothing that you're actually flying? 18 RESPONDENT: No, backup. 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 RESPONDENT: 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. It's -Okay. And for this 22 type of approach in, I don't have a copy of the SOPs in 23 front of me, but are there specific call outs on this 24 type of approach? RESPONDENT: 25 I have a copy here, if you'd NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 52 1 like? INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 2 3 a second. 4 RESPONDENT: 5 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 6 Oh, I'll get that in Okay. Yes, if you want to refer to it, feel free to. 7 RESPONDENT: Well, I'll show you, yes -- 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 RESPONDENT: Okay, yes. -- it did -- 10 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 then, you can refer to it, if you want to -- 12 RESPONDENT: 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 RESPONDENT: I'm going to ask, and Okay. -- in your answer. Well, there would be, you call 15 out your height above the MDA, and say, I'm 1,000 above 16 the MDA, then you count down 500 above, 400, 300 -- 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 18 RESPONDENT: 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 -- 200, 100 MDA. Okay. Who's making those call outs? RESPONDENT: 21 22 Okay. That would be the non-flying pilot. 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. Is that how you 24 all would term it, is the pilot monitoring, or pilot PNF, 25 I mean, -NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 53 1 RESPONDENT: PF, PNF -- 2 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 RESPONDENT: 4 INVESTIGATOR Okay. -- is how, yes. LAWRENCE: Okay. Is there 5 anywhere in the GON, or specifically in the SOPs that 6 discusses stable approach criteria? 7 RESPONDENT: 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 have to be in the 1,000-foot per minute, no, no more. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 RESPONDENT: Inside the final approach fix, INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Is that in your, the SOPs? RESPONDENT: 17 18 When? starting down. 15 16 Tell me about RESPONDENT: It is 1,000-foot per minute. You 12 14 Okay. that. 10 11 Yes. Yes. These are the notes, the criteria you must meet. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 19 Got it. By the way, 20 flaps, full flaps on a non-precision approach, like this 21 localizer, when do you go full flaps? 22 RESPONDENT: When the landing is assured, 23 runway in sight, landing assured. 24 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: So that wouldn't occur 25 until after you've already arrived at MDA and leveled NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 54 1 off, or -RESPONDENT: 2 Well, it depends on, I mean, and 3 the weather that day was, was -- if you get down and if 4 you see it, before the best approach point -- 5 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 6 RESPONDENT: 7 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 8 -- then you go landing flaps. Well, if I'm doing a dive and drive and get down to the -RESPONDENT: 9 Okay. 10 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 RESPONDENT: 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 Okay. -- MDA -- Yes. -- am I (inaudible) the MDA to go to the 1.1 missed approach -- 14 RESPONDENT: Yes. 15 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: -- point at flaps 125? 16 RESPONDENT: 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Yes. Okay. So it's not 18 until I get to see the runway that I go flaps 45 and exit 19 MDA? 20 RESPONDENT: Correct. 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay, is there any 22 procedure that says that you go flaps 45, prior to the 23 final approach fix? RESPONDENT: 24 25 Prior to the final approach fix, only on a, not only on a precision approach. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 55 1 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 2 RESPONDENT: 3 INVESTIGATOR Okay. Yes. LAWRENCE: Okay. Great, I 4 appreciate that. I'll need a copy of that, eventually. 5 Oh, briefing the passengers on the seatbelt signs, is 6 that required, or the seatbelts, do you use the seatbelts 7 on here? 8 RESPONDENT: 9 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: RESPONDENT: 10 11 That can be the Captain, or the INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Great. Did your pilots do this, did they brief them? 14 RESPONDENT: 15 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 16 RESPONDENT: 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 18 Who does that? Captain can delegate that to the First Officer. 12 13 Yes. Yes. They did? Absolutely. Is it required for every flight? 19 RESPONDENT: It's, for every flight in, in our 20 instances, we have new people all the time, so yes, every 21 flight, if it's the, if it's a multiple leg day, with the 22 same people, no. 23 brief them. You take note of who is, who is new. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 24 25 If there's new people onboard, you All right. Use of the seatbelts sign, do pilots, who's responsible for NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 56 1 that? 2 RESPONDENT: That would be the captain. 3 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. And how do you 4 pilots train to verify that the passengers have their 5 seatbelts secure? RESPONDENT: A visual. You ask them, are your 6 7 seatbelts connected? 8 properly. It's a visual. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 10 And you see that they're buckled, Okay. walking in the cabin? 11 RESPONDENT: 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: RESPONDENT: For takeoff, no. 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: It's for No, this is Okay. Well, somebody's verifying it -- 18 RESPONDENT: 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 RESPONDENT: 21 INVESTIGATOR 22 Okay. done -- 16 17 Yes. takeoff? 14 15 So somebody's I mean --- (inaudible). Someone is verifying, yes. LAWRENCE: What about for landing? RESPONDENT: 23 For landing, the seatbelts sign 24 will be eliminated and the passengers should be compliant 25 -NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 57 1 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 2 RESPONDENT: 3 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 4 Okay. -- with the seatbelt -Is there any visual confirmation that they have their seatbelts on? 5 RESPONDENT: You could look back, but they're, 6 to do that, you'd only get a glimpse of, maybe, one or 7 two seats. 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 RESPONDENT: Okay. But no, it's -- 10 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 RESPONDENT: (Inaudible.) No, for the pilot to go back, 12 before landing, and make sure the seatbelts are fastened 13 would be, would have been a compromise, so -INVESTIGATOR 14 15 LAWRENCE: So there's not a procedure for them to go back -- 16 RESPONDENT: There's, no, no, there -- 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. 18 that's why I was going to make sure. 19 getting done, how you doing? 20 RESPONDENT: 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: I'm just, All right, I'm Good. Okay, great. Tell me 22 about the weight and balance process, who does it and 23 how's that recorded? RESPONDENT: 24 25 done on Ultra-Nav. Well, the pilots do it. We have a, a server that NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 It's has 58 1 Ultra-Nav loaded on it and you can log on, perform the 2 numbers, or input the information. 3 either, by email, to a printer, upload that information 4 to the, the flight log, and that's if the pilots do it 5 that's, the captain, it's the captain's responsibly. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 6 You can transmit it, Okay, when they load 7 it into the Ultra-Nav software and they complete their 8 weight and balance, do they hit send and does it go 9 anywhere, or is it just, do they just print it up, I mean 10 -- 11 RESPONDENT: 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 It goes --- how do you know about it? 14 RESPONDENT: It goes to my printer. 15 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. So that's where 16 the copies I have of the weight and balances for this 17 particular trip -- 18 RESPONDENT: 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay, so that came off 20 They go to the printer. of yours? 21 RESPONDENT: Right. 22 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. But the pilots 23 have, are they supposed to print one up and have a copy 24 of them? RESPONDENT: 25 The only thing that they're NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 59 1 required to do is transfer that data to the, to the 2 flight log. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 Okay. When a, is 4 there anything in the FMS, from a performance standpoint, 5 what they take and enter from the weight and balance, 6 like a zero fuel (inaudible), or anything like that, for 7 the FMS, or is -RESPONDENT: 8 9 The FMS should have the, the weights in there. 10 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 RESPONDENT: 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 Okay. Yes. For the particular flight? RESPONDENT: 14 For the particular flight, it's 15 the empty weight of the airplane and then you input the 16 fuel. 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 18 RESPONDENT: 19 But it's not a FMS where it generates all your performance data. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 21 Okay. Got it. But is there anything -- 22 RESPONDENT: Great. 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: -- that the pilots 24 need to input in the FMS from the weight and balance that 25 they created from Ultra-Nav? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 60 1 RESPONDENT: That would be, no, the only thing 2 coming off the, the weight and balance of the airplane. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 4 Okay. Are passengers required to be weighed before each flight? RESPONDENT: 5 They're, you can weigh them, you 6 can use their actual weights, you can use their asked 7 weights, and then you add ten pounds per company, per 8 our, our GOM. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 10 RESPONDENT: 11 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 12 RESPONDENT: 13 I get that. Is that, is that for every flight they're supposed to do that? RESPONDENT: If the people, if there's a changes to new passengers, then you get the weight. 18 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 19 RESPONDENT: 20 Right. -- there's a lot of rounding up INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 16 17 So it's a round up, there's -- going on there. 14 15 Right. Okay. But in this instance, I know it was the same people. 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 RESPONDENT: 23 have a scale. 24 airplane. Baggage is, we weigh that, we It is a scale that we keep in the It's a calibrated scale and we weigh the bags. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 What about baggage? Okay. Is that for NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 61 1 every flight, as well? 2 RESPONDENT: That is for, yes, every flight, 3 if there's changes then you re-weigh, if there's new 4 people with new bags. 5 same bags, no. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 6 7 All right. Okay. Where's that scale located at on the airplane? RESPONDENT: 8 9 But, if it's the same people, the compartment. That would be in the baggage I know, in that airplane, there was a 10 forward and (inaudible) bag, baggage, the AFT, it's 11 located 12 baggage, or the AFT baggage, depending on just -- if it 13 takes up space, they'll put it in the AFT. 14 it's in the baggage department. in LAWRENCE: be in For the forward So -- but the accident memory, where I saw it was in the AFT baggage. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: little bit here, Rich. Okay. Shift gears a Let's talk about training. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: Can I take a five-minute 21 22 either RESPONDENT: That airplane, the last time, off 19 20 could airplane? 17 18 it INVESTIGATOR 15 16 the, break? 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Take a break. 24 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter went off the 25 record at (time not given) and went back on the record at NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 62 1 (time not given)) INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 2 Okay, I was about to 3 ask you about the training, but let me ask you, really 4 quick, Rich, about, one more thing about the seatbelts 5 signs, is there any, is there any oral recording that 6 comes on, on the particular, on the 700, the accident 7 aircraft 237, that advises the passengers to sit down and 8 buckle their seatbelts when the sign comes on? RESPONDENT: 9 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 10 11 There is. Okay. And, is that, or we just need you to say it. 12 RESPONDENT: 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 15 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 16 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: You did. 18 RESPONDENT: I -- 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 RESPONDENT: 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 Yes. Yes. We need an audio, yes. Yes. You did it. So sorry. So is that -- -- (inaudible). -- (inaudible) with a seatbelt sign, or is it -- 23 RESPONDENT: 24 INVESTIGATOR 25 Was I nodding? No. LAWRENCE: -- you got whatever -NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 to, 63 1 RESPONDENT: 2 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 (Crosstalk) 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 5 RESPONDENT: 6 It's (inaudible) button. right? MR. JAHR: 8 RESPONDENT: 9 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 10 earlier, 11 seatbelt sign? the captain's usually Okay. So you said responsible for the Well the seatbelt, to, to say INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Right. Okay. And where's the seatbelt sign? RESPONDENT: Or just a quick reach over. It's 16 -INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 18 19 Yes. okay turn it on and off. 14 17 Co-pilot's side. RESPONDENT: 12 15 Where is that button? That is off the co-pilot's side, 7 13 Okay. It's on the First Officer's -RESPONDENT: 20 not a long -- it's up on the top right. 21 It's reach, 22 airplanes have stuff in different places, so. INVESTIGATOR 23 but top LAWRENCE: right. So if All these you're in 24 flight, you're coming in for a landing and you turn the 25 seatbelt sign on, is there a procedure, or is it required NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 64 1 for them to hit that recording? RESPONDENT: 2 3 with the seatbelt sign. They're, it just comes in line Procedure in our manual, no. 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 5 RESPONDENT: 6 But it's just a, and it follows with the, with the seatbelt sign on the, it's just -INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 7 8 Okay. Is that how you use it? RESPONDENT: 9 I use it. 10 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 RESPONDENT: 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. Yes. If you didn't have 13 that, and you hit the seatbelt sign on, are you required 14 to say something, if you didn't hit the oral recording? RESPONDENT: 15 16 Well you confirm if everyone's belted in. 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 18 RESPONDENT: 19 belts are on. 20 which -- Okay. You say, make sure your safety And you could turn your head and say that, 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 RESPONDENT: 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Thank you. -- in that airplane you can. Okay. Great. Thanks 24 for that clarification. Training, let's talk a little 25 bit about, describe the training the pilots receive when NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 65 1 they come to ExecuFlight. RESPONDENT: 2 3 Okay. We do an in dock, company in dock, it's 30, 36 hours. 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: That's in-house? 5 RESPONDENT: We go over, we cover In-house. 6 the required 435 items for the, and then we utilize our 7 POI for the oral, for completion of the in dock and then, 8 Simuflite, we utilize for the simulator training portion. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 10 Simuflite have, is it a 700, or 800? 11 RESPONDENT: 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 700, yes. Okay. Is that EFIS, or is it analog? 14 RESPONDENT: 15 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 16 RESPONDENT: 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 18 RESPONDENT: 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 What kind of sim does Analog. The Simuflite sim? The 700 sim is an analog. Yes. Oh. No EFIS. Okay. And you've flown it, correct, you flew the sim in the Simuflite? 21 RESPONDENT: 22 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: How does it compare to 23 the accident airplane? 24 RESPONDENT: 25 Yes. It is, the presentation of the instruments is, I'd say, identical. It's a six-pack NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 66 1 configuration. The FMSs are different. 2 accident airplane had a GNXLS and the simulator has a 3 universal, I think it's UNS1K, if I remember correctly. 4 But, pretty much, similar, as far as where your hands go, 5 you know, as far as selecting the altitude and all the 6 mode control. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 7 The one in the This is a good point, 8 because I want to understand on that the ADI where the 9 decision height nob is, is that similar, do you recall, 10 in the sim, as it is in the accident airplane? 11 RESPONDENT: 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 RESPONDENT: 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 Similar. Yes. Altitude window, the altitude selection window? 16 RESPONDENT: 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 18 RESPONDENT: 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 RESPONDENT: 21 INVESTIGATOR 22 Okay. It's, yes, identical. Okay. Yes. Okay, good. Yes. LAWRENCE: Great. Auto throttles? 23 RESPONDENT: No auto throttles. There's no -- 24 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 RESPONDENT: Okay. -- no Hawker has them. I think NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 67 1 one mod came out in the newer version, but no, no auto 2 throttles. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 4 RESPONDENT: airplane. have, but not for this But I have done that. not make it through training and Simuflite? RESPONDENT: 9 10 I INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Any Hawker pilots ever 7 8 You ever go down and observe simulator training with other pilots? 5 6 Okay. To my knowledge, no. No, everyone has gotten through. 11 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: And just so we have it 12 on record, do you use your instructors on Simuflite, or 13 Simuflite instructors? 14 RESPONDENT: 15 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Simuflite instructors. Okay. So you know 16 what, at least, simulations for, simulators for your 17 training. 18 RESPONDENT: Correct. 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. And do the 20 Simuflite instructors use ExecuFlight procedures and SOPs 21 to train your pilots, or their own? RESPONDENT: 22 These, these SOPs that 23 ExecuFlight has are adapted from Simuflite, so they are 24 identical. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 Okay. I guess, what NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 68 1 my question also 2 Simuflite, or -- leads to, do 3 RESPONDENT: 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 5 have this, at Yes. -- are they just the Simuflite, you're just copying this and then -- 6 RESPONDENT: 7 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 8 they They, they have this. It says ExecuFlight, -RESPONDENT: 9 They -- 10 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: -- Incorporated and -- 11 RESPONDENT: To my knowledge, yes, but not -- 12 yes, they should have a manual there that looks just like 13 this -- 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 RESPONDENT: 16 INVESTIGATOR 17 Okay. -- in their records. LAWRENCE: Great. How many pilots can you estimate that you sent to Simuflite? 18 RESPONDENT: It's been, well, quite a few. At 19 least, I mean, over the years I'd say, I'd venture to 20 say, up to 30. 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 RESPONDENT: 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: a little Okay. That's a guess. variation on a Did any of those 30, 24 it's question I asked 25 earlier, has any of those 30 ever had any training NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 you 69 1 difficulties, or not make it through training at -RESPONDENT: 2 Yes. There's, well, there's 3 been, I don't know in the Hawker, all right, to the 4 Hawker, no. 5 (Crosstalk) 6 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 7 RESPONDENT: 8 Well no, yes, there have been several. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 10 Okay. Okay. CRM training, do your pilots get that? 11 RESPONDENT: We do. 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 RESPONDENT: 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: And how's that taught? 15 RESPONDENT: Where? And I -- it's in-house. Discussions over the content of 16 the manual we have for the presentation. 17 we address what's in the content and we talk about it. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: I'm sorry, you address 18 19 the content -RESPONDENT: We have the CRM Manual that we go 20 21 over. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 23 It, you know, Is it, it says CRM Manual on it? 24 RESPONDENT: It says CRM, it's approved. 25 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: For ExecuFlight? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 70 1 RESPONDENT: Correct. 2 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 3 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 4 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: Got it. We'll add it. Thank you. And how should I word 5 that, exactly, for the request, it's a CRM, was it a CRM 6 Manual? 7 RESPONDENT: CRM Manual. 8 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 9 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. All right. Great, thanks. 10 the first I've heard of that. 11 records and showed that you guys test them on CRM? I believe, I saw their 12 RESPONDENT: 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 It's Yes. And there's like a written test? 15 RESPONDENT: Yes. 16 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: That was going to be 17 one of my questions, where'd that written test come from, 18 it comes from the CRM Manual, correct? 19 RESPONDENT: 20 INVESTIGATOR 21 Yes. LAWRENCE: So it's in-house, who teaches it? 22 RESPONDENT: 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 24 Okay. I teach it -Okay. Were you aware if Simuflite had their own CRM training? (Crosstalk) 25 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 71 RESPONDENT: 1 That, I might have been aware 2 when I was there last, but I know they have a lot of 3 courses they offer. So. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Any reason why not use 4 5 Simuflite's 6 training? CRM training and use your own in-house 7 RESPONDENT: Well, it's just, it, in-house is, 8 probably the time constraint, maybe, when they're out 9 there. I'm not sure how, how long that course is. 10 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 RESPONDENT: 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. So. So just a couple more 13 on that. I hadn't seen the manual, yet. But, basically, 14 where's the content of the manual come from and where do 15 you get that information, to teach these guys? 16 RESPONDENT: That, that was drawn up, that was 17 composed by the Director, our Director of Operations. 18 This was -- 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 RESPONDENT: 21 -- I think the manual was 2013, it was, it was composed. 22 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 23 RESPONDENT: 24 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 Do you have a -- Okay. I didn't create the contents. Okay. And would that be Robert, what's -NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 72 1 RESPONDENT: 2 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 RESPONDENT: 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 5 It -- -- yes, it, I believe so. RESPONDENT: 7 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: RESPONDENT: Okay. How long does Yes. Oh it's about, I think we budget two hours. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 12 But you teach it take you to teach? 9 10 Okay. it? 6 8 That -- And is that part of the in dock training, or is that something done -- 13 RESPONDENT: That's on an initial, I know, the 14 initial requirement for 135 and then, it can be done in 15 the (inaudible), as well. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 16 Okay. Last question 17 on that one, is there recurrent CRM training, or is this 18 just something that the guys see one time? 19 RESPONDENT: 20 yes we do a recurrent. They're, we've done a recurrent, 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: When was the last one? 22 RESPONDENT: 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 24 RESPONDENT: 25 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: I had one with Nabil. When? I think a week ago. Okay. Okay, almost NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 73 1 done here. Just in general, if somebody was to come up 2 to you and ask you about, describe ExecuFlight for me, in 3 general terms, how would you do that? RESPONDENT: 4 know, we've 5 you 6 seven-and-a-half years. 7 in the process of growing. in operation for been here the whole time. 11 longevity, our growth, it's all positive. Everyone gets along well. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: RESPONDENT: So. How many employees do Okay, I think we have right around 30. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. And how many of 16 17 But, you know, our they have total? 14 15 We're And it's a, it has a good culture. 13 seven, I mean, I, I've 10 12 about We're a growing company. It's a good place to work. 8 9 been I'd say, we're a company that, those are pilots? Just an estimate. 18 RESPONDENT: 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. And prior to -- 20 RESPONDENT: 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Prior to the accident, 22 Fifteen? how many were Hawker pilots? RESPONDENT: 23 24 Twelve. You have, we had six? Donnie? MR. SHACKLEFORD: 25 Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Six, 74 1 RESPONDENT: Yes, six. 2 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. And based on 3 your role and responsibility, as the Chief Pilot, do you 4 communicate with these 12 pilots, on a regular basis? 5 RESPONDENT: 6 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 7 RESPONDENT: 8 How? Face-to-face, phone conversations, more, more face-to-face. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 10 Yes. Good. How would you characterize the morale of the pilots at ExecuFlight? RESPONDENT: 11 12 what they do. 13 high. Morale is good. Guys like flying, so that keeps the morale INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 Everyone likes If the pilot had a 15 complaint, either about the company, or a procedure, or 16 a process, is there anything, is there any formalized 17 program that allows them to air those concerns? RESPONDENT: 18 19 the owner. 20 the Director of Ops. It would be done through me, or They'd raise the concern with me, or the, or INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: No de-identified means 21 22 to submit issues with the company? 23 RESPONDENT: 24 INVESTIGATOR 25 De-identified (inaudible)? LAWRENCE: My name's not on there, so you can an anonymous, you know, message saying, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 75 1 I don't like the way we do this, or, but not with the 2 pilot's name, or whoever? RESPONDENT: 3 4 No. No, things will be brought up directly by the pilot. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 5 Okay. Prior to the 6 accident, you had 12 pilots, six of which are on the 7 Hawker for three Hawkers, correct, two 700s and one 800, 8 would you consider that short staffed? 9 (Off microphone discussion) 10 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter went off the 12 record at (time not given) and went back on the record at 13 (time not given)) INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 Hang on. So do you, you know, 15 with six, prior to the accident, six Hawker pilots and 16 three airplanes, do you consider yourself short staffed? RESPONDENT: 17 18 I mean, we're, we can staff every airplane, so -INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 19 20 Not short staffed. Do you monitor the scheduling and the, you know, duty times for the pilots? RESPONDENT: 21 I do look at that, but it's the 22 pilot's responsibility that they're, that they are within 23 their duty requirement hour, hours flown. 24 them to make sure, but I do, I do see it, I look over it. INVESTIGATOR 25 LAWRENCE: Okay. So it's up to Who's NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 the 76 1 Director of Operations? 2 (No response) 3 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Oh, this (inaudible). 4 I already asked you that, didn't I, and you don't have 5 one, currently. Do you have a Director of Safety? 6 RESPONDENT: 7 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Safety Director, or Okay. Director Has there ever 8 been 9 somebody that they have in the safety department within 10 a No. of Safety, or the organization? 11 RESPONDENT: No. No, I don't believe so. 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 RESPONDENT: 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. No. Just a couple of things. Okay. 15 here. 16 with pilots, how would that be handled? RESPONDENT: 17 Almost done Disciplinary actions Well, disciplinary actions, I've 18 really haven't had any need to discipline people. 19 mean, if it's a conversation of, all right, what, what 20 can you do to keep this, you know, what's the issue, what 21 can we do to make sure that you don't do it again, I 22 mean, it would be a conversation like that, but there's, 23 there's no, but there could, there would be a letter in 24 their pilot record, noting what took place. 25 be the extent of it. That would NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 I (202) 234-4433 77 1 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. I may have some 2 follow-ups, a little later, but I want to get, you're 3 probably tired of hearing from me, so I'm going to give 4 Sean an opportunity to, to see if he has any questions? INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 5 6 RESPONDENT: 8 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 10 You all right? 7 9 All right. Yes. You're good to go? I noticed you were drinking that water, so I wanted to make sure you didn't need the bathroom again. 11 RESPONDENT: 12 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: Just a few, you've given 13 us a lot of information here, so I don't have that much. 14 Do you guys typically use JEPP charts, or NOS charts, 15 what kind of tech charts do you normally use? RESPONDENT: 16 No. Thank you. We use JEPP, we use the NOS. We 17 have a subscription to JEPP, so any, any form of paper we 18 can use. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 19 20 just a subscription for the 21 airplane, is it stocked with it? And is the subscription company, or is every 22 RESPONDENT: We have a company, company and 23 the updates come to the airplane. 24 we get an update they come in and it'll be done over, 25 including the airplane, so you can get, it'll go to the We have airplane, if NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 78 1 tail member. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 2 3 own books onboard? RESPONDENT: 4 5 So the airplane has its They, they have their own, they, we have a script to have, to have the JEPP paper. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 6 airplane 8 understand a little bit here. 9 itself, had its own subscription to it and it was inside, just trying to The accident airplane, Okay. And where would that normally be located? RESPONDENT: In the closet behind, behind the cockpit. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: Was that the closet where sometimes the scale is stored, that area? RESPONDENT: 19 20 I'm There, yes, there should have INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 17 18 sorry, been. 15 16 I'm RESPONDENT: 13 14 and physically inside the airplane? 11 12 -- So the accident 7 10 had Okay. Okay. No, no, it's a narrow, narrow closet. 21 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 22 RESPONDENT: Okay. Where the flight manual would be 23 and where the wing mounts manual would be, or the, all 24 the aircraft manuals and books. 25 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: Okay. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 79 RESPONDENT: 1 But, pertinent charts per to the 2 trip is also what the pilots can do and they can print 3 them out through the government source, as well. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 4 5 What do you normally do when you go fly a -RESPONDENT: 6 I, I print and I could use the 7 JEPPs that we have at printing, printing is convenient, 8 so. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 9 So could I assume you 10 probably don't utilize the JEPPs onboard very often, or 11 they used, or is it varied and on the pilots? 12 RESPONDENT: It varies (inaudible) pilot, yes. 13 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: All right. Now you said 14 you normally print them off, before you go, now that's 15 just your, I guess, you take your trip and you see where 16 you're going, you print those off. 17 Now, if you were diverting, for weather, for 18 mechanical, or whatever, and you had to do an approach, 19 would you have to then go to the closet? 20 be able to pull up the appropriate approach plate to a 21 diversion airport? RESPONDENT: 22 23 How would you I would have the JEPPs onboard and find them, if we had to divert. 24 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 25 RESPONDENT: Okay. I mean, I'd also print charts to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 80 1 the alternate airports, or anything suspected where I'd 2 have to divert to, so. INVESTIGATOR 3 4 ETCHER: Now who is responsible to keep those charts up-to-date? 5 RESPONDENT: 6 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 7 Okay. It's the pilot's. The pilots keep the airplane charts up-to-date? 8 RESPONDENT: Yes. 9 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 10 RESPONDENT: 11 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: Okay. The captain. All right. When you 12 guys go do a trip, do you require any of your crew 13 members to do any risk assessment analysis, or anything 14 about their flights, weather -RESPONDENT: 15 No. That's, I know that's a, 16 something that we are wanting to implement to adapt to 17 the SMS practices, so there isn't a, a form you would 18 fill out that has all the different variables and, and 19 then give you, like, I know what an SMS scenario -- okay, 20 airport, length, runway length, weather. 21 you an analysis of, okay, give me your name, so we're 22 (inaudible), but we don't have anything like that. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 23 Okay. And it'll give So if, if a 24 crew's out flying along and one of them has an issue with 25 going to an airport, weather, whatever, is there, do they NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 81 1 have the right, or how do they go about saying, we're not 2 going to complete this leg, because of the weather, is 3 there procedure in hand for you guys? RESPONDENT: 4 There is, well, it's at the 5 captain's discretion to determine, I'm not going because 6 of this reason, because of weather, there's no, it's the 7 judgment of the captain. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 8 9 10 you and say he's not going, or is there a formal process he's got to go through? 11 RESPONDENT: 12 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 13 And would he just call He'll call me. Does that happen very often? RESPONDENT: 14 It's happened, yes. 15 but, it, it's not often, but it's happened. 16 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 17 RESPONDENT: 18 Not often, Okay. They want to go here, because of this reason, okay, and I'll say go. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 19 Did either one of these 20 two pilots ever, or did the captain of this flight ever 21 have to make that kind of a call to you? RESPONDENT: 22 He did, yes, gave me a call. It 23 was about weather up in, they were up in the Atlanta area 24 trying to go to one airport and he called me up and said, 25 you know, he was asking me, you know, what, can I go NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 82 1 here? And I said, well, let me see what the weather 2 report is and I said, if, if it changes, or if you're not 3 comfortable with it, you can go, you know, there's no 4 problem with you going to the other airport, Archerfield, 5 or re-routing there, not a problem. So 6 just getting my, my, he's getting my 7 assurance on it, just making sure that I was okay with 8 him doing that, it's not a problem. 9 don't know if preach is the right word, but I said, if 10 you ever have an issue, you know, tell me about it and 11 you can go to the other place. If that makes you more 12 comfortable that's (inaudible). All the guys know that, 13 so. INVESTIGATOR 14 ETCHER: I, that's what I, I Okay. And last 15 question, hopefully, it's a pretty easy one. How's your 16 interaction with your POI, your, your FFA counterparts 17 that you deal with on a regular basis? 18 RESPONDENT: 19 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: Do they come here often, 20 I'd say excellent. do you have to go there often, just -RESPONDENT: 21 Yes they come here. 22 back and forth to the (inaudible). 23 they, they come here. 24 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 25 RESPONDENT: I've been It's, yes, they, Okay. It's -- so. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 83 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 1 2 that's all I got. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 4 RESPONDENT: 5 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Donnie, you got anything? MR. JAHR: 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 MR. JAHR: No, I'm fine. I'm just listening. Okay. Okay. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 10 John, on the phone, anything for Rich? MR. DRAGO: 12 13 Thanks. Thank you. 7 11 Well that's, I appreciate it. 3 6 Okay. items. Thank you. Actually, I do have a couple of Richard, John with the FAA. 14 RESPONDENT: Yes? 15 MR. DRAGO: Are you, do you have a list of 16 authorized instructors for your 135 operation? 17 that you give, you do some of the instruction, so I 18 wanted to inquire, clarify, do you have more than one 19 operations instructor for the operation? 20 RESPONDENT: 21 MR. 22 DRAGO: You said Yes, yes, for Simuflite? No, in-house, authorized instructors in-house, company instructors? 23 RESPONDENT: 24 MR. DRAGO: 25 RESPONDENT: No, at the moment, no. You don't have any? It didn't -- NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 84 MR. 1 2 MR. DRAGO: questions. I'm sorry. have more than That's two different So who are the authorized instructors? RESPONDENT: Myself and the Director of Ops, former -MR. DRAGO: 9 10 only correct. 7 8 you RESPONDENT: Well, at the present time, that's 5 6 Or yourself? 3 4 DRAGO: Okay, so it's, okay, so it's just you, currently? 11 RESPONDENT: 12 MR. DRAGO: Correct. All right, thank you. The 13 Director of Operations, you said he left the company, 14 have you notified the POI? 15 RESPONDENT: 16 MR. DRAGO: The POI is aware, yes. Okay. For Simuflite, during your 17 part of your training, do you specify, as Chief Pilot, do 18 you specify that any training requirements each time the 19 pilots go on a training checking form? 20 RESPONDENT: 21 MR. DRAGO: 22 RESPONDENT: 23 MR. DRAGO: On that form, do you specify doing 24 lower than standard 25 weather approaches? Yes, the TCA authorization. Okay. Yes. approaches, lower than standard NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 85 1 RESPONDENT: 2 MR. DRAGO: No. Okay. Do you, when you're down at 3 the training facility, at the simulator, do you train 4 lower than standard? 5 RESPONDENT: 6 MR. DRAGO: 7 No we do not. Okay. Do you authorize and train circling approaches? 8 RESPONDENT: Yes. 9 MR. DRAGO: Okay. And, is that part, that's 10 part of your qualification, FSDO, then, for the circling 11 approach? RESPONDENT: 12 13 Yes that's correct, for, for PICs. 14 MR. DRAGO: Okay. For the other training that 15 Simuflite does not provide, you talked about doing in 16 dock, and I know that you were asked about CRM training, 17 what other training do you give, locally? RESPONDENT: 18 19 do, I do the, all the required, we do the Hazmat, security, and emergency. MR. DRAGO: 20 21 We I'm sorry, I copied Hazmat, and what was the second one? 22 RESPONDENT: Security and emergency training. 23 MR. DRAGO: Okay. 24 Is that your list, or do you have others? RESPONDENT: 25 That, that's it, yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 86 MR. DRAGO: 1 Okay. Okay. How do, how do you 2 train emergency procedures? Hands on, for example, the 3 hands on emergency egress of the aircraft, that type of 4 thing, -- 5 RESPONDENT: 6 MR. DRAGO: 7 RESPONDENT: -- do a scenario exiting the, the 8 -- departing the aircraft? wing, over the wing exit. MR. DRAGO: 9 10 Right, we -- A mock, a evac -- Yes, how do you do that training, where do you do that training? 11 RESPONDENT: We do it at our hanger. 12 MR. DRAGO: 13 RESPONDENT: I do. 14 MR. DRAGO: Okay. And who gives that instruction? 15 trying to fill out that list. 16 training? RESPONDENT: 17 18 given a wind shear -- 19 MR. DRAGO: 20 RESPONDENT: 21 MR. 22 So that -- Okay. I'm Who does the wing sheer That is at Simuflite, they're Okay. DRAGO: -- event. A wind shear event in the simulator? 23 RESPONDENT: 24 MR. DRAGO: Okay. How about operations during 25 Correct. ground icing, is that something you do in-house? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 87 1 (Off microphone discussion) 2 RESPONDENT: 3 Oh that's, yes we do, we have a, with our operations manual that we -- 4 MR. DRAGO: Okay. 5 RESPONDENT: 6 MR. DRAGO: -- train to. Okay. Has any of this training 7 that you give been monitored by the POI, or one of the 8 representatives from the FSDO? RESPONDENT: 9 10 of Ops. I've been observed by the FSDO doing a 293 oral. MR. DRAGO: 11 12 I'm sorry, I didn't copy your response, could you repeat it, please? RESPONDENT: 13 14 For my memory, it's our Director I've bene observed doing the orals and, by our Director of Ops, doing the training. MR. DRAGO: 15 Okay. My question is, has the FAA 16 monitored any of the training you have given, for any of 17 the training you've done at ExecuFlight? RESPONDENT: 18 19 To my knowledge, no. I don't know. MR. DRAGO: 20 Okay. Thank you. I'm going to 21 switch gears, just a little bit, I have another question 22 with regard to your pilots and the -- do you ever have 23 periodic pilot meetings where everybody's together at one 24 place? RESPONDENT: 25 We do. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 88 MR. DRAGO: 1 2 standardization? 3 in-house? And do you cover topics, such as How do you address standardization, RESPONDENT: 4 Well, we always reference to the 5 simulator training with SOPs. I mean, that's, that's how 6 we reference that, it's -- 7 MR. DRAGO: Okay. 8 (Crosstalk) 9 RESPONDENT: There's not much we can do, at 10 the hanger, when it comes to that, but we have meetings 11 where we discuss, you know, status meetings, just to get 12 together -MR. DRAGO: 13 Okay. And one, I've got one more 14 for you. 15 other than when they're called in for a trip, do they 16 have any type of regular office duties, or regular office 17 time? RESPONDENT: 18 19 No. No, they're only obligated Okay. Okay, I think that's all I to, to fly. MR. DRAGO: 20 21 Are your pilots required any other duties, have. Thank you, very much. 22 RESPONDENT: My pleasure. 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Great, Rich. This is 24 a conclusion and follow-up. Is there anything that, 25 maybe, you want to clarify that we talked about, this is NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 89 1 the opportunity to -- 2 RESPONDENT: 3 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 4 RESPONDENT: 5 INVESTIGATOR we are Anything, you know? Not at the moment, I -LAWRENCE: simply Okay. here, Under as a the 6 premise 7 organization, trying to find out what happened, so that 8 we can prevent it from happening again. 9 your side, or anything that you can help us with, or you 10 that With, with -- safety Any thoughts on can think of, to assist us in that endeavor? RESPONDENT: 11 Well, as far, I mean, preventing 12 this accident, these types of accidents from happening 13 again, it's -INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 Well, we're trying to 15 find out what, but is there anything that you can help us 16 with, based on your roles and responsibilities, as the 17 Chief Pilot, of this organization? 18 RESPONDENT: Well, if new training or policies 19 need to be implemented, I'm, I'm, you know, full throttle 20 on -- 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 RESPONDENT: 23 INVESTIGATOR Yes. -- on, on adapting. LAWRENCE: Okay. Great. 24 Anything you can think of that we should have asked you 25 that we didn't? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 90 1 RESPONDENT: 2 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 RESPONDENT: 4 At the moment, no. Okay. I don't, maybe there'll be some things later. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 5 Well, as always, you 6 know, sometimes we have, later after these interviews, 7 opportunities to maybe think about those and if you want 8 to clarify anything, or add anything, you know, feel free 9 to get a hold of us, at any point in time, okay? 10 RESPONDENT: 11 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 12 All right. Thanks, guys. (Whereupon, 13 14 Okay. the interview in the above- entitled matter was concluded at (no time given)) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 91 C E R T I F I C A T E MATTER: Execuflight Hawker Accident Akron, OH, November 10, 2015 Accident No. CEN16MA036 Interview of Richard Ruvido DATE: December 2, 2015 * IFSFCZ DFSUJGZ UIBU UIF BUUBDIFE USBOTDSJQUJPO PG QBHF 1 to 91 inclusive are to the best of my QSPGFTTJPOBM ability a true, accurate, and complete record of the above referenced proceedings as contained on the provided audio recording GVSUIFS UIBU * BN OFJUIFS DPVOTFM GPS OPS SFMBUFE UP OPS FNQMPZFE CZ BOZ PG UIF QBSUJFT UP UIJT BDUJPO JO XIJDI UIJT QSPDFFEJOH IBT UBLFO QMBDF BOE GVSUIFS UIBU * BN OPU GJOBODJBMMZ OPS PUIFSXJTF JOUFSFTUFE JO UIF PVUDPNF PG UIF BDUJPO. ----------------------- NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD -----------------------------: IN RE: : : THE EXECUFLIGHT HAWKER : ACCIDENT THAT OCCURRED IN : AKRON, OHIO ON NOVEMBER 10, : 2015 : : -----------------------------: NTSB Accident No. CEN16MA036 INTERVIEW OF: SAL MATTEIS* Wednesday, December 2, 2015 Banyon Aviation Ft. Lauderdale Executive Airport Ft. Lauderdale, Florida BEFORE DAVID LAWRENCE, Investigator, NTSB SEAN ETCHER, Investigator, NTSB NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Interviewee: MR. JAHR:, ESQ. Wicker Smith O'Hara McCoy & Ford P.A. SunTrust Center 515 East Las Olas Boulevard, Suite 1400 Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 Tel.: (954) Fax: (954) On Behalf of ExecuFlight: DONNIE SHACKLEFORD On Behalf of the Federal Aviation Administration: JOHN DRAGO* *Present by teleconference NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 3 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1 (Time not disclosed) 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 Good afternoon. My name is 4 Captain David Lawrence and I'm an investigator with the 5 NTSB. 6 ExecuFlight Hawker accident that occurred in Akron, 7 Ohio last month, and extend my condolences to you and 8 everybody else associated with this accident. 9 role here is to learn what I can about the accident so I'm the operations group chairman for the And my 10 I can assist in the investigation, and hopefully 11 prevent this from reoccurring. As part of our process, we invite parties to 12 13 participate in the investigation to provide us 14 technical expertise. 15 ExecuFlight, Textron, and the FAA. 16 room now and just ask everybody to introduce themselves 17 and provide their affiliation. MR. ETCHER: 18 19 We'll go around the Good afternoon. MR. JAHR: Chris Jahr with the Wicker Smith Law Firm. 22 MR. SHACKLEFORD: 23 Captain with ExecuFlight on the Hawker. MR. MATTEIS: 24 25 Sean Etcher with the NTSB. 20 21 For this group, we have the NTSB, Donnie Shackleford, Sal Matteis, salesman for ExecuFlight. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 4 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. DRAGO: 3 John Drago, Inspector with the FAA. MR. LAWRENCE: 4 5 On the phone? John, do you want to explain your role with the FAA in this investigation? MR. DRAGO: 6 Sure. Thanks, David. I'm a, 7 for our purposes today, I'm part of the operations 8 group here to facilitate and help wherever I can. 9 not here for anything FAA related other than to support 10 I'm the NTSB in determining the cause of the accident. MR. LAWRENCE: 11 Great. Thanks. As you've 12 been advised, you're allowed one representative of your 13 choice to assist or participate in the investigation 14 and is Chris who you would like? 15 MR. MATTEIS: Yes that's fine. 16 MR. LAWRENCE: Okay. As part of the 17 process, I'll record the interview and we will have a 18 transcription made, which will eventually become a part 19 of the factual record. 20 public docket. 21 process or anything? Audio will not be part of the Do you have any questions about the 22 MR. MATTEIS: 23 MR. LAWRENCE: 24 easy stuff first. 25 age. No, sir. Okay. Let's start with the And if I can get your full name and NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 5 MR. MATTEIS: 1 2 Salvatore Michael Matteis. think I'm 58. 3 MR. LAWRENCE: 4 MR. MATTEIS: 5 MR. LAWRENCE: 6 your current title with ExecuFlight? 7 MR. MATTEIS: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. MATTEIS: MR. MATTEIS: 13 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. MATTEIS: 16 MR. LAWRENCE: Great. And what's Salesman. Okay. Customer service rep. How long you been in that On and off, three years. And how long have you been On and off, three years. Same? Okay. Great. What do you do as a salesman, customer service rep? 18 MR. MATTEIS: 19 MR. LAWRENCE: 20 MR. MATTEIS: 21 Okay. employed with ExecuFlight? 15 17 I am 58. role? 12 14 Okay. MR. LAWRENCE: 10 11 I What do you mean? What's your role in this -Not to be sarcastic, but I sell flights. 22 MR. LAWRENCE: 23 MR. MATTEIS: Okay. And I inform the customers 24 that have purchased flights of FBO's, movement of 25 planes, follow-up, trying to get more business. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 6 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. MATTEIS: 3 Okay, great. Perfect. It's okay if I ask you to clarify some questions, isn't it? MR. LAWRENCE: 4 Sure. And I was about to 5 say, I'm going to be typing just some general notes on 6 the computer, and sometimes I type like this, so, 7 exactly. And -MR. MATTEIS: 8 9 if you learn how to type. MR. LAWRENCE: 10 You'd do a whole lot more work That's what they told me. Okay. So, if I'm not making 11 eye contact with you, I apologize. 12 there's a question, like you just said, you don't 13 understand or want, you know, me to clarify, please do. 14 Just say, hey, I don't the question. MR. MATTEIS: 15 16 But also, if I think you know, I voice my opinion. 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 perfectly acceptable answer as well. 19 What did you do before, well, just the cliff notes 20 version of your background that lead you to 21 ExecuFlight. MR. MATTEIS: 22 Okay. And I don't know is a Okay? Great. Prior to working at 23 ExecuFlight, I was a broker, selling flights to the 24 public. 25 Prior to that, I had manufactured clothes. Prior to that, I had sold sporting goods. Prior to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 7 1 that I had represented, was a sales manager for a 2 sporting goods distributor, and prior to that, I was a 3 retailer. 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 5 MR. MATTEIS: 6 MR. LAWRENCE: 8 MR. MATTEIS: MR. LAWRENCE: 11 MR. MATTEIS: MR. LAWRENCE: 14 MR. MATTEIS: 15 in the sales department. 16 MR. LAWRENCE: 17 my next question. 18 ExecuFlight? I have a very extensive Who hired you here? Mr. Lewkowicz, and it was Who's Nick Brown? Nick Brown is the other person Okay. Great. You led me to How many of you are there with 19 MR. MATTEIS: 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 MR. MATTEIS: What do you mean? Salesmen. How many salesmen? I think -- you mean that actually do quoting? 23 MR. LAWRENCE: 24 MR. MATTEIS: 25 Great. recommended by Nick Brown. 13 22 Okay. aviation background. 10 12 And I had a little dip in the middle of managing some real estate companies. 7 9 Okay. Yes. Because, you know, I mean, like my pilots are salesmen because if they get a rough NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 8 1 trip, then I'm not getting any business back. 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. MATTEIS: 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 5 MR. MATTEIS: 6 MR. LAWRENCE: 7 MR. MATTEIS: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. Two or three. Okay. Usually Nick and I are the Okay. Good. Curious, are you a pilot? MR. MATTEIS: 11 12 Like, the quoting? main thrust and Danny will send some quotes in. 9 10 How many people do your job? I could tell, you the buttons on your shirt, how much they cost, no. 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 MR. MATTEIS: Okay. I have a very, I have acquired 15 my aviation knowledge through the school of hard 16 knocks. 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 MR. MATTEIS: 19 Okay. Excellent. And excellent feedback from my pilots. 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 MR. MATTEIS: 22 MR. LAWRENCE: Okay. And company. Okay. I'm going to ask you a 23 little bit more specifics about this particular trip, 24 but before I do, I want to kind of understand 25 something, because I've heard the term being used by NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 9 1 some of the pilots that you guys are like dispatchers, 2 and the term get's interchanged with salesman and 3 dispatcher. 4 just sales? Are you actually a dispatcher or are you 5 MR. MATTEIS: 6 MR. LAWRENCE: 7 question. 8 pilots? Okay. That answers my Do you do any flight planning for the MR. MATTEIS: 9 10 What is a dispatcher? I've never filed a flight plan in my life. 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 MR. MATTEIS: Okay. I have gone on and created a 13 mock trip on FlightPlan, not a flight plan, so I could 14 get the people's -- what's that crap? 15 Don. Passports, sorry Passport stuff. 16 MR. SHACKLEFORD: 17 MR. MATTEIS: 18 MR. LAWRENCE: 19 MR. MATTEIS: 20 MR. LAWRENCE: So you could do the APIS. So I could do the APIS. Okay. That's the extent. Okay. So I think I know the 21 answer to these questions, but I'm going to ask them 22 anyway. 23 ever assisted in providing weather to one of the 24 pilots. So you've never filed a flight plan. MR. MATTEIS: 25 Have you It's like, if there's a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 10 1 hurricane in western Mexico that's coming in and people 2 are wanting to go to Guadalajara, I've answered that 3 question. 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 5 MR. MATTEIS: Sure. You know, and if somebody's 6 asked me to look something up, I'd looked it up. 7 is not my primary function. 8 could be normal and realize when the wind's blowing or 9 something if I'm there, but I don't research that, no. 10 MR. LAWRENCE: 11 MR. MATTEIS: 12 MR. JAHR: 13 MR. MATTEIS: 14 MR. LAWRENCE: 15 MR. JAHR: 16 MR. MATTEIS: 17 MR. LAWRENCE: That I mean, you know, you Okay. Is that too long of an answer? That's, you don't research it. I don't research it. Yes. Right. Sorry. Weight and balance. Do you 18 assist the pilots in the creation of the weight and 19 balance for a particular flight? 20 MR. ETCHER: 21 MR. JAHR: 22 MR. MATTEIS: 23 MR. LAWRENCE: 24 MR. MATTEIS: 25 Okay, say it. You have to say no. No. No I don't. Thank you. The only way I assist them is by giving them the passenger count, which I have to get NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 11 1 when I have to do an APIS. MR. LAWRENCE: 2 Okay. I understand that. 3 you ask for the passengers for their weight at any 4 point in time to give that information to the pilot? 5 MR. MATTEIS: 6 usually my customer tells me that. 7 MR. LAWRENCE: 8 MR. MATTEIS: 9 MR. LAWRENCE: 11 MR. MATTEIS: MR. LAWRENCE: 14 MR. MATTEIS: 15 MR. LAWRENCE: 16 MR. MATTEIS: MR. JAHR: Right. Okay. the weights of every Right. No, I don't. Okay. Excellent. See, I could rephrase your question, ask him to clarify. MR. MATTEIS: 21 MR. JAHR: 22 MR. MATTEIS: Sure. Or clarify it and the term. Yes. But you knew that before you asked. MR. LAWRENCE: 24 25 Is the specific practice for If you ever don't understand a 20 23 But I was -- questions for you that I understand. 18 19 Yes. passenger? 13 17 If someone's 400 pounds, me to ask every customer that books a flight with me -- 10 12 Do Have you ever ridden on one of your, on one of the ExecuFlight aircraft? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 12 1 MR. MATTEIS: 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. MATTEIS: I definitely have. Which one? I've ridden on 975 Romeo Gulf, 4 a G3, and I've ridden on 3555 Fox Alpha, a 800. 5 ridden on 817? 6 the only two that I've ridden on. MR. LAWRENCE: 7 8 Okay. I think those are Have you ridden on 237, the accident aircraft? MR. MATTEIS: 9 10 I don't think so. Have I I've sat in it many times, but never ridden on it. MR. LAWRENCE: 11 Have you had an opportunity 12 to ride with either Oscar, with either the Captain or 13 the First Officer of the accident flight? 14 MR. MATTEIS: 15 MR. LAWRENCE: 16 MR. MATTEIS: 17 At any point in time? Okay. I can tell you they were great guys. MR. LAWRENCE: 18 19 No. there. Tell me about, well, let's go Tell me about your interaction with them. MR. MATTEIS: 20 My interaction with Oscar, on 21 a business basis was, it was very professional. 22 was one of those people that would doors close, doors 23 open, religiously. At the end of the day, he would say, you 24 25 Oscar know, goodnight, and I would say goodnight back. I NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 13 1 think you've seen some of those Whatsapps, where -- 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. MATTEIS: No, I have not. Oh. Well, they cop my 4 Whatsapp. It's like, you know, he's, he was very 5 cordial and very boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and so 6 was Renato. 7 MR. LAWRENCE: 8 MR. MATTEIS: 9 Okay. And they were both actually, this is my opinion so I should keep my mouth shut, but 10 they both actually loved working for the company 11 because I think they had been, I shouldn't say, I think 12 they were out of work for a while. 13 to fly. 14 grouches. And they were pleasant. Stick to the questions. MR. LAWRENCE: 15 So they were happy They weren't Sorry, boss. All right. So for this 16 particular accident, the flight, the trip that was 17 developed, it was a two-day trip, correct? MR. MATTEIS: 18 Well, it ended up being a two 19 day trip. I mean, there were three brokers that 20 initially looked at the flight that we had quoted, I 21 think two of them, and it, they had changed, they -- 22 not us -- they had changed the routing and a couple of 23 the airports a couple of the times in the flight. 24 also assisted me in changing, there was a bunch of 25 changes on the flight. Nick NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 14 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. MATTEIS: 3 Okay. So it ended up being a two-day trip. MR. LAWRENCE: 4 Okay. So I think we jumped 5 ahead, but I want to kind of go back. 6 with the very, since I'm not, I want to understand how 7 this charter became a reality. 8 real estate company decided they need to transport 9 people around the Midwest, who called who? MR. MATTEIS: 10 Who called, when the Well the real estate company 11 probably called two or three brokers. 12 fact they called two brokers. 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 MR. MATTEIS: And let's start I know for a Okay. They called a good friend of 15 mine from Boca, and she was quoting the trip out of 16 Boca on a three-day trip, and then I got a request from 17 Air Charter Service via Avinode on a two -MR. LAWRENCE: 18 19 Wait a second. You got a request from -MR. MATTEIS: 20 Air Charter Service, who ended 21 up being the broker of record, who the real estate 22 company contacted. 23 MR. LAWRENCE: 24 MR. MATTEIS: 25 Okay. And I got that through email of a request, and that trip started in Boca, but after NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 15 1 we quoted it, I called the broker and told him that I 2 could save him basically a thousand dollars if he flew 3 out of Fort Lauderdale executive rather than Boca, 4 because of the two short legs. 5 he won the bid. MR. LAWRENCE: 6 7 So I think that's how Okay. So the real estate company called air charter services and -- 8 MR. MATTEIS: 9 MR. LAWRENCE: And a couple other brokers. And a couple other. But Air 10 Charter Services, they called you and said we have a 11 charter. MR. MATTEIS: 12 13 Well, they sent an email inquiring first. 14 MR. LAWRENCE: 15 MR. MATTEIS: 16 Right. Right. And then we quoted it, and then the dialogue started. MR. LAWRENCE: 17 Okay. Got it. So the 18 original flight, you know, when you decided that this, 19 you said you'd save them some money out of Fort 20 Lauderdale. 21 MR. MATTEIS: 22 MR. LAWRENCE: 23 MR. MATTEIS: 24 Right. What was it supposed to do? It was originally, their original request, and this is from memory -MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Sure. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 16 MR. MATTEIS: 1 But I remember their original 2 request was Boca to Akron first, and then to St. Paul 3 and then a bunch of other places, and that way it 4 turned into a three-day trip. 5 there's two hours a day, plus overnights. 6 charging, when I quote, when I quote a job, my plane 7 has to fly two hours a day. 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. MATTEIS: And as you guys know, So, and Oh, okay. Okay? Just the minimums. 10 Unless their trip has enough hours in it. Plus it's 11 750 bucks, I think, or 650 bucks for an overnight. 12 the broker ran through about, ran through different 13 scenarios of the flight plan or of the track, so he 14 could try and erase a day. 15 going Boca to Akron, first stop. So Because initially, we were 16 And then the broker, through the real estate 17 company, I'm sure, decided, well, I would assume, but I 18 was told, now we're going Fort Lauderdale, St. Paul 19 first. 20 remember of the trip. And that's, without any notes, that's what I MR. LAWRENCE: 21 Okay. So then you present a 22 bid to the broker and say, we can do it for this much 23 money. MR. MATTEIS: 24 25 I went through and did the little bit of due diligence that I do, making sure that NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 17 1 there's an airport there and, you know, that the 2 runway's long enough, just for my protection. 3 I don't look like a dummy when it goes back and they 4 say, we can't go there. MR. LAWRENCE: 5 6 Just so How long's the runway supposed to be? MR. MATTEIS: 7 Well, you know, it's, legally 8 or whatever, according, it's supposed to be 5,000 feet. 9 But I guess, as a pilot, you know sometimes you can't 10 land on 5,000 feet if, you know, it's high or the 11 weight or whatever. 12 rule of thumb is 5,000 feet. MR. LAWRENCE: 13 14 All right. I know So you then presented this new, revised to the broker. MR. MATTEIS: 15 16 But I don't, you know. Over and over. About three times. 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 MR. MATTEIS: All right. And -- And then after I revised it, 19 then it went to Nick and revised it again on a day I 20 was either sick or not in, and revised it again. It was revised several times based on, I 21 22 think, feedback from, but I, you know, the little bit 23 that I remember was feedback from the broker's 24 customer, that he wanted to do this, this and this. 25 it kept changing. And I think they were trying to also NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 So COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 18 1 eliminate the one day, because that was -- 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. MATTEIS: 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 5 MR. MATTEIS: 6 MR. LAWRENCE: 8 MR. MATTEIS: MR. LAWRENCE: MR. MATTEIS: 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 MR. MATTEIS: 15 MR. LAWRENCE: 16 MR. MATTEIS: 17 MR. LAWRENCE: Right. They didn't ask us to do Right. Is, was Akron, Fulton Yes, AKR? Yes. AKR was the first stop. On the original plan? On the original plan. When they were going out of Boca after -- 19 MR. MATTEIS: 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 MR. MATTEIS: 22 And so, you know, as long as on the original plan? 12 18 Oh. anything illegal, nor would we. 10 11 Go from three to two. within duty and legal, obviously. 7 9 Go from three to two? AKR, Boca to AKR. Right. And they were supposed to leave, like, at 9:00 in the morning or something. MR. LAWRENCE: 23 Okay. And then it ends up 24 getting revised and then it's Minneapolis, St. Paul, 25 down, but it was always going to be Fulton -= Akron, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 19 1 Fulton that they were going to be landing at. 2 MR. MATTEIS: 3 MR. LAWRENCE: 4 MR. MATTEIS: Not -- As far as I remember, yes. Okay. Some of the other airports 5 changed. Like the one in, I think, Iowa. 6 Iowa. 7 pretty well spelled out. 8 way it was. 9 I put bigger airports down, which they changed to That changed. We went to I mean, the quote request came You know, and I quoted it the And then when he made some verbal changes, 10 little airports. And then when it was all done, you 11 know, it got released and the pilots had the trip sheet 12 in plenty of time before to review it. Because it's like, when you get a trip 13 14 sheet, first thing you do is look at it and say, Sal, I 15 can't do this, or this runway's too bad. 16 then we work back and then I would call the customer 17 and say, hey, we can't go here. MR. LAWRENCE: 18 19 We have to go there. Right. Do you recall when the trip sheet was sent out to Oscar and Renato? MR. MATTEIS: 20 No. I send them out, as soon 21 as I get a book, I send them out. 22 trip sheets do I send out on a trip? 23 Fifty? I probably, how many A hundred? I send out a lot. MR. SHACKLEFORD: 24 25 You know, You send a lot of trip sheets because you're not just working for just one NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 20 1 crew. MR. MATTEIS: 2 But I'm saying, when I send 3 you a trip sheet for a trip I sold, I usually send it 4 out as soon as I got it booked. MR. SHACKLEFORD: 5 6 Well, soon as you get the information. 7 MR. MATTEIS: 8 MR. SHACKLEFORD: 9 MR. MATTEIS: 10 Was that -- quick. Yes. I, and I -You always get it -- Right. But I send them out And I send them out in multiples. 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 MR. MATTEIS: Okay. You know, it's, for me, I feel 13 I'm doing my job by getting whoever's involved the 14 information as soon as it is. 15 forbid, if it changes, then you got to redo it -- And then, you know, God 16 MR. LAWRENCE: 17 MR. MATTEIS: 18 what, basically, the game plan is. But at least now you can see MR. LAWRENCE: 19 Right. Is that the process when you 20 get the trip sheet created, because you now know what's 21 going to be happening? 22 through the chief pilot, or -- Is the pilot first? 23 MR. MATTEIS: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 MR. MATTEIS: Does it go It has to be released first. Okay. You know, and then it goes to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 21 1 pilots, obviously. MR. LAWRENCE: 2 3 process? Okay. What's the release What do you mean? MR. MATTEIS: 4 I don't know. I don't do it. 5 Just, you know, gets released by either the chief pilot 6 or Danny. MR. LAWRENCE: 7 8 MR. MATTEIS: I'm just typing it in. 10 MR. LAWRENCE: 11 MR. MATTEIS: 12 MR. LAWRENCE: 13 MR. MATTEIS: 14 MR. LAWRENCE: 15 MR. MATTEIS: released, it gets released. MR. MATTEIS: I'm missing something here. I don't release them. I don't know. MR. LAWRENCE: 20 sheet and information. Okay. You enter the trip Correct? MR. MATTEIS: 22 I enter the trip sheet information. MR. LAWRENCE: 24 25 Yes. Then it, and when it gets 18 23 Well, what do you hit to -I hit -- I have email, yes. MR. LAWRENCE: 21 And once it, you hit send -Well I don't hit send. 17 19 So you're sending, you're just typing it in -- 9 16 Okay. save it? Okay. And then what, you Does it save to a server that goes out -NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 22 MR. MATTEIS: 1 2 It saves. And sometimes I will email a heads up. 3 MR. LAWRENCE: 4 MR. MATTEIS: Right. Before, it's like, you got a 5 trip in two weeks. 6 It's not a real trip. 7 he knows where he's going. Here it is. MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. MATTEIS: Right. And then we'll officially get passengers and things like that. 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 MR. MATTEIS: 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 It's not released yet. But I'm sending it to a pilot so 8 10 And it also emails. Okay. I do a lot of heads-ups. Okay. Ever get input from the chief pilot at any point during this process? MR. MATTEIS: 15 16 and from the pilots. 17 can't do this nonstop. Get input from the chief pilot You know, we can't go there. 18 MR. LAWRENCE: 19 MR. MATTEIS: Right. This is a wet day runway only. 20 I mean, normal stuff like that, yes. 21 MR. LAWRENCE: 22 MR. MATTEIS: Right. Of course. Okay. I mean, they do, I may have 23 had some differences with my company as far as my 24 salary, but my company does do things the right way, 25 and they double check and triple check. I mean, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 You COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 23 1 that's, the only thing you have is your safety. 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. MATTEIS: 4 MR. JAHR: 6 MR. MATTEIS: 7 MR. JAHR: You don't have to say anymore. Sorry. That's it. Just answer the questions. MR. MATTEIS: 9 10 Which we don't have anymore because of this. 5 8 Right. box. All right. I was on my soap Thank you. MR. LAWRENCE: 11 So, have you ever had, I 12 think you've answered this, but I want to clarify it. 13 Pilots or the chief pilot say we can't do this. 14 MR. MATTEIS: 15 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. Okay. 16 infrequently, occasionally? 17 it? Is that frequently, How would you characterize 18 MR. MATTEIS: 19 honestly, whenever we can't do it. 20 know. I mean, I don't I don't -- 21 MR. LAWRENCE: 22 MR. MATTEIS: 23 I would characterize it, Okay. I, you know, I pretty much don't look at things that way. 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 MR. MATTEIS: Right. Okay? I don't dispatch, I NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 24 1 don't do flight plans. 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. MATTEIS: 4 Right. I'm not an aviation person, okay? 5 MR. LAWRENCE: 6 MR. MATTEIS: Right. When a chief pilot or a pilot 7 tells me we can't do things, they're telling me that so 8 I can inform my customers. MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. MATTEIS: 10 Right. When I get a doors closed or a 11 doors open, I'm flight following for my customers 12 because their manager, or their girl Friday wants to 13 know where they are. MR. LAWRENCE: 14 You mentioned something about 15 the text. I want to ask you a little bit about that. 16 When they send the doors close, as they're closing the 17 doors and they send that, are you on the receipt of 18 that text? 19 MR. MATTEIS: 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 MR. MATTEIS: 22 MR. LAWRENCE: 23 MR. MATTEIS: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 salespeople? Yes. Who else? The whole dispatch team. Okay. And the pilots. Okay. Dispatch meaning You said dispatch team. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 25 MR. MATTEIS: 1 2 Let me rephrase that. 3 company. I, that, I misspoke. Pretty much everybody in the 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 5 MR. MATTEIS: 6 Okay. Yes. That has contact with a customer -- 7 MR. LAWRENCE: 8 MR. MATTEIS: 9 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. MATTEIS: 10 11 gets it, I'm sure. 12 get it. Right. Will get that. Okay. I get that and the chief pilot I don't know who gets it. 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 MR. MATTEIS: 15 MR. LAWRENCE: I know I Okay. Better answer. Great. Sorry. And then you made, 16 you used the phrase, I'm able to flight-follow and 17 flight-following. What does that mean? MR. MATTEIS: 18 It means when I get a doors 19 closed, I call my customer up and say, hey, we're 20 taking off from. 21 hours. 22 customer and say, we landed. We should be on the ground in three And then I'll get a doors open and I'll call my 23 MR. LAWRENCE: 24 MR. MATTEIS: 25 Okay. So -- My customer knows their people are on the ground. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 26 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. MATTEIS: 3 Okay. And then it's usually followed by my customer saying, did they like the flight. MR. LAWRENCE: 4 So, would it be fair to 5 characterize, and correct me if I'm wrong, that your 6 flight-following, your definition of flight-following 7 form your job point, is more customer service. 8 MR. MATTEIS: 9 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. MATTEIS: 10 11 Without a doubt, only. Yes. Okay. You could put a big exclamation on that one, sir. 12 MR. LAWRENCE: 13 MR. MATTEIS: 14 MR. LAWRENCE: Okay. There it goes. Sal, were there any concerns 15 expressed by anybody in the chain of command or anybody 16 that had some type of input to this particular trip? 17 Did anybody express any concerns about flying this 18 particular trip? 19 MR. MATTEIS: 20 expressed any concerns. 21 concerns, they did not express them to me. MR. LAWRENCE: 22 As far as I remember, no one Or if they did express Okay. Do you recall, well do 23 you get emails when, if the chief pilot was to, and the 24 pilots were to talk about a particular trip prior to 25 the trip commencing, would you be copied in on any of NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 27 1 that? 2 MR. MATTEIS: 3 MR. LAWRENCE: On technical stuff? Not technical, but if they're 4 just talking about the trip and, you know, where you 5 going to overnight, you know, are you okay -MR. MATTEIS: 6 7 Well, sometimes I'll call and get a hotel for them. 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. MATTEIS: Yes. Okay. I mean, it's pretty, in my 10 part, my responsibility, pretty laid back as far as 11 that is. 12 where the runway is broken, they're going to call me 13 and tell me the runway's broken. 14 we got to go somewhere else. You know, if there's, if there's a problem MR. LAWRENCE: 15 Okay. Call your customer, Do you recall for this 16 particular trip anybody voicing any concerns about the 17 weather for the trip? MR. MATTEIS: 18 19 know. I don't believe so. I don't I don't think there was. MR. LAWRENCE: 20 Okay. Did you get any 21 messages, email or texts directly from Oscar or Renato 22 during the course of the trip? 23 MR. MATTEIS: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Of course. Other than the doors closed, doors open? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 28 MR. MATTEIS: 1 I got a text from Renato 2 asking for Wednesday and Thursday off because I had 3 promised him, or he had asked for a couple days, and I 4 had put them down, and then I had to clarify that with 5 Rich and Danny because even though we try to, we do 6 honor requests for pilots for our days off, I don't 7 have the authority to give it. 8 do it, but it was granted. MR. LAWRENCE: 9 10 MR. MATTEIS: 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 I can put it down and Okay. His two days were granted. Is that typical that the pilots would call a salesperson up to request days off? MR. MATTEIS: 13 Well, I mean, you know, I 14 mean, you have to be the girl Friday too. 15 it's my trip and I'm talking to them all the time -- 16 MR. LAWRENCE: 17 MR. MATTEIS: I mean, if Yes. He's just going to say, if 18 it's Nick's trip, or if he's talking to (phonetic) 19 Alton about something, we're not IBM, you know. 20 if someone wants to ask me a question, they're going to 21 ask me a question. MR. LAWRENCE: 22 23 that was the process. 24 it? 25 far as -- Okay. I'm, I just didn't know if Do that they talk to you about Who's responsible for scheduling the pilots, as NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 29 MR. MATTEIS: 1 2 Well, I like to put it down so nobody forgets it. 3 MR. LAWRENCE: 4 MR. MATTEIS: 5 the CEO are the ones that grant it. 6 MR. LAWRENCE: 7 MR. MATTEIS: 8 Right. But either the chief pilot or Okay. I have no authority to grant somebody a day off. MR. LAWRENCE: 9 Okay. That catches most of 10 what I want. I'll see if, probably tired of hearing 11 from me, so let me see if Sean has any questions. 12 MR. ETCHER: 13 gave us a lot of info. 14 MR. MATTEIS: 15 MR. ETCHER: I just have one, actually. Fifteen parts. That's all right. You Sorry. You said you 16 use a, excuse me, you use a rule of thumb of 5,000 feet 17 for a runway when you bid out a trip or whatever you 18 do. Is that just your personal rule or is that -MR. MATTEIS: 19 No, I think that's a company- 20 wide rule. I think that's Argus. 21 feet, period. 22 or if it's more or if it's higher or whatever. 23 5,000 feet's a general rule of thumb, I think, within 24 the aviation community. If it's less, then we have to clearance, MR. ETCHER: 25 It's got to be 5,000 But Okay. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 30 1 MR. MATTEIS: 2 MR. ETCHER: 3 Okay. Then let me ask one more follow one question. MR. MATTEIS: 4 5 As far as I know. No, you asked one question. You're done. MR. ETCHER: 6 Well, that's probably true, but 7 I'll ask one more anyway. 8 when you look for the runway length, is it, that all 9 you care about, the length? 10 approaches? Or do you have to look at Or is there anything that -MR. MATTEIS: 11 The, when you look at the, I don't know anything about 12 it. I couldn't tell you what an approach is other than 13 going up to a girl with some cash and a drink. 14 MR. JAHR: 15 MR. ETCHER: 16 MR. LAWRENCE: 17 MR. MATTEIS: 18 MR. JAHR: 19 MR. ETCHER: 20 MR. MATTEIS: 21 there's customs. 22 24 hours a day. 23 it's a real runway. Okay. Okay Sorry. That's good. That's all I've got. I do sometimes look to see if I do kind of see if their airport's I try to see if there's, you know, if I mean, it's America, so usually there 24 25 Okay, that's -- aren't podunk runways with holes in it, as opposed to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 31 1 South America or somewhere. 2 that, but, you know, I mean, the, I take great pride in 3 my job and serving my customers. 4 about my customers than I care about the trip because 5 it's not one trip, it's every trip. 6 MR. ETCHER: 7 MR. MATTEIS: And I shouldn't have said You know, I care more Okay. And if I service somebody good 8 and they can trust me, and they know they can go on and 9 sell because I'm going to tell them their customer 10 landed, and then I'm going to call my pilot and say, 11 were they happy, did we have the right food they 12 wanted, and I tell my customers that, which is my 13 "flight-following" which really isn't flight-following, 14 then he's happy because he knows I'm doing his work. 15 And then I get more trips. 16 MR. ETCHER: 17 MR. MATTEIS: 18 And basically, as much as I love it, I do need to eat. MR. ETCHER: 19 20 Okay. got. Understood. That's all I've Thank you. MR. MATTEIS: 21 And I have, you know, if you 22 want to check with some brokers to tell you that, you 23 know, I always tell them where they are and I have 24 thems probably give me a list of, my customers that, 25 you know, I follow up. That's what I do. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 32 1 MR. ETCHER: Okay. 2 MR. MATTEIS: Like I was here at a quarter 3 to 1:00 for my 1 o'clock appointment. 4 do. 5 MR. LAWRENCE: 6 MR. SHACKLEFORD: 7 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. MATTEIS: I have no Okay. Did I screw up? MR. JAHR: Or am I going You, there's no question, no question there. 13 MR. MATTEIS: 14 MR. LAWRENCE: 15 No, I'm fine. to jail? 11 12 Donnie, do you have any -- questions. 8 10 That's what I need anything? Oh. John, on the phone, do you Do you have any questions? 16 MR. DRAGO: Actually I do have one or two. 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 MR. DRAGO: Okay. Maybe just one. Depends on, 19 Sal, you said that you kind of give the pilots a heads- 20 up on occasion. 21 (inaudible)? 22 kind of gets released, do you assign the pilots or how 23 does that work? When you get a request for a trip and it MR. MATTEIS: 24 25 Do you, who makes the crew Well, I believe that it has to be released by either the chief pilot or the president. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 33 1 You know, I may make a suggestion when crews available, 2 but I certainly, being the low man on the totem pole, 3 have no power. MR. DRAGO: 4 5 understood. So I'm not sure that I So you don't, you don't select the pilots? I may select and suggest, but I cannot confirm that that pilot is on that trip. MR. DRAGO: 8 9 Okay. MR. MATTEIS: 6 7 But I can look and see who's available. Okay. If, do you have any -- does it ever go through your mind, I can't put this 10 pilot with this other pilot in any, for any of the 11 crews? 12 MR. MATTEIS: 13 MR. DRAGO: 14 Heck, no. Do you have any of that that you have to worry about? MR. MATTEIS: 15 No, sir. With all honesty and 16 sincerity, we have a really pretty good bunch of 17 pilots. 18 family. We're actually, we were actually a pretty nice MR. DRAGO: 19 20 Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. 21 MR. MATTEIS: 22 MR. LAWRENCE: 23 MR. MATTEIS: 24 Very good. No worries. I mean -- Anybody else? You're trying to get rid of me. MR. LAWRENCE: 25 So that's, I think that's NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 34 1 really all we have. What I also offer anybody that we 2 talk to is if there is anything you can think of, 3 obviously we're here from the safety side. 4 because we want to try and prevent this from happening 5 again. 6 MR. MATTEIS: 7 MR. LAWRENCE: And also Without a doubt. And I know you share that. 8 So is there anything you can think of that you can 9 provide us, or anything you want to help us with that 10 maybe help us in that endeavor or anything you can 11 think of to add to what you told us? MR. MATTEIS: 12 I think you guys are pretty 13 bright. I think you guys have turned over every stone 14 a couple times. 15 officially to what you have. I don't have anything that I could add 16 I do feel this trip, for the broker, was a 17 pain in the ass, and for me it was a pain in the ass, 18 and for Nick was a pain in the ass, because they 19 changed it so many times. 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 MR. MATTEIS: 22 Right. You know, aside from that, anything out of the ordinary, there wasn't. 23 MR. LAWRENCE: 24 MR. MATTEIS: 25 MR. LAWRENCE: Well, was -It was really pretty clean. Did, it being a pain like NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 35 1 that for you, was it a pain as far as the construction 2 to get it to the point before it went to the pilot or 3 did it -MR. MATTEIS: 4 5 that. 6 quote that. No, it was a pain before It was a processing pain. 7 MR. LAWRENCE: 8 MR. MATTEIS: 9 No. It was quote this, I got it. Don't quote this person. This person's going out of Boca, this person's going out of 10 Fort Lauderdale. Why did I lose my trip? 11 you were my friend. 12 Fort Lauderdale and you quoted it out of Boca. Well, because he quoted it out of MR. LAWRENCE: 13 I thought Do you, in your experience, 14 do you think this trip that was put out to the pilots 15 was anything more challenging than any of the other 16 trips that you -MR. MATTEIS: 17 18 No offense. I mean, I'm not trying to demean it. 19 MR. LAWRENCE: 20 MR. MATTEIS: 21 Thought it was pretty easy. Right. But I mean, it was all during the day. 22 MR. LAWRENCE: 23 MR. MATTEIS: Yes. There was no night flying. 24 There was no close connections. 25 America. It was, it was all in It was all in mid-America. It was, I'm not NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 36 1 trying to demean it. Trust me. 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. MATTEIS: 4 Sure. I understand. I mean, we're all with this tragedy, but it was a pretty basic trip. MR. LAWRENCE: 5 6 Yes. Right. Okay. Anything else you can think of to -MR. MATTEIS: 7 And that's why, you know, yes. 8 No. I was going to say something else, but it's just 9 like, it's such a basic trip. And to have a tragedy 10 like that. 11 It's not like we landed in the mountains. 12 like we were over Afghanistan where somebody's 13 shooting. 14 what, a 30-minute flight? MR. MATTEIS: Yes. It's sad. Thanks. Appreciate you Thank you. I hope I didn't mess you up. (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 19 20 This one? talking to us. 17 18 It's not It was just a basic damn trip, and this was MR. LAWRENCE: 15 16 It's not like we went nine hours of flight. off the record at an undisclosed time.) 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 37 C E R T I F I C A T E MATTER: Execuflight Hawker Accident Akron, OH, November 10, 2015 Accident No. CEN16MA036 Interview of Sal Matteis DATE: December 2, 2015 * IFSFCZ DFSUJGZ UIBU UIF BUUBDIFE USBOTDSJQUJPO PG QBHF 1 to 37 inclusive are to the best of my QSPGFTTJPOBM ability a true, accurate, and complete record of the above referenced proceedings as contained on the provided audio recording GVSUIFS UIBU * BN OFJUIFS DPVOTFM GPS OPS SFMBUFE UP OPS FNQMPZFE CZ BOZ PG UIF QBSUJFT UP UIJT BDUJPO JO XIJDI UIJT QSPDFFEJOH IBT UBLFO QMBDF BOE GVSUIFS UIBU * BN OPU GJOBODJBMMZ OPS PUIFSXJTF JOUFSFTUFE JO UIF PVUDPNF PG UIF BDUJPO. ----------------------- NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD -----------------------------: IN RE: : : THE EXECUFLIGHT HAWKER : NTSB Accident No. ACCIDENT THAT OCCURRED IN : CEN16MA036 AKRON, OHIO ON NOVEMBER 10, : 2015 : : -----------------------------: INTERVIEW OF: Danny Lewkowicz Thursday, December 3, 2015 Banyon Aviation Ft. Lauderdale Executive Airport Ft. Lauderdale, Florida BEFORE DAVID LAWRENCE, Investigator, NTSB SEAN ETCHER, Investigator, NTSB NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Interviewee: CHRISTOPHER JAHR, ESQ. Wicker Smith O'Hara McCoy & Ford P.A. SunTrust Center 515 East Las Olas Boulevard, Suite 1400 Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 Tel.: (954) Fax: (954) On Behalf of ExecuFlight: DONNIE SHACKLEFORD On Behalf of the Federal Aviation Administration: JOHN DRAGO* *Present by teleconference NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 3 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 2 Good afternoon. My 3 name is Captain David Lawrence, and I'm an Investigator 4 with the National Transportation Safety Board. 5 Operations Group Chairman for the Execuflight Hawker 6 accident that occurred in Akron, Ohio last month. I'm the And to begin with, my condolences to you and 7 8 the entire Execuflight family. 9 learn what I can about the accident so I can assist in 10 the investigation. 11 reoccurring. My role here is to And hopefully prevent this from As part of our process we invite parties to 12 13 participate in the investigation, to provide us 14 technical expertise. 15 Execuflight, Textron, and the FAA. 16 now and ask everyone to introduce themselves, and 17 provide their affiliation. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 18 19 MR. JAHR: Christopher Jahr, with the Wicker MR. SHACKLEFORD: Donnie Shackleford, Hawker, for the 700, Captain for Execuflight. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 24 25 Hi, good afternoon. Smith law firm. 22 23 Go around the room I'm Sean Etcher with the NTSB. 20 21 For this group we have the NTSB, Augusto Daniel Lewkowicz, CEO of Execuflight. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 Great. And 2 hopefully momentarily, the FAA representative John 3 Drago, will be coming in. 4 role and FAA is no different than anybody else involved 5 with the investigation. 6 the investigation, have no certificate action or 7 authority. 8 group, John will be. 9 him introduced. As I've mentioned, John's They are just here to assist They're just technical expertise for this So when he comes on, I'll have 10 As I know you've already been advised, 11 you're welcome to have one representative of your 12 choice. Is Chris, who you wish to attend? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 13 14 That is who I wish to attend. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 Great. As part of 16 the process, I'll record the interview. And we'll have 17 a transcription made, which will eventually become part 18 of the factual report. 19 public docket. Audio will not be part of the Do you have any questions? 20 MR. LEWKOWICZ: No. 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: One thing I do want 22 to say, we're going to be just taking some general 23 notes. 24 apologize if I don't make eye contact with you. 25 don't understand the question, please ask me to repeat So I'm going to be typing and eyes down. So I If you NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 5 1 it. And more importantly, just focus on the question 2 and concentrate your answer just on the question. 3 need follow-up I'll be happy to ask for follow-up 4 questions. Okay? Let me start with the very beginning. 5 6 if I can get your full name and age? 7 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 8 Augusto, and you know how to INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: MR. LEWKOWICZ: 10 Yes. Daniel Lewkowicz. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 16 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Yes. Okay. Great, and your age? 53. Okay. 17 your current title with the company? 18 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: MR. LEWKOWICZ: CEO. All right. And what Pretty much overlook everything. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 23 24 And what's are your roles and responsibilities in general as CEO? 21 22 And do you know how to spell that? 12 20 Danny spell that? 9 11 If I Okay, great. You're a pilot, correct? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 25 Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 6 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 2 certificates and ratings? 3 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 4 U.S. certificates would include Westwind, Hawker, Gulfstream III, IV, V SIC. 5 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 6 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 7 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 8 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 9 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. ATP? Yes. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 11 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Great. And Medical? Class 1. Class 1, limitations? 13 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 Yes. Citation, and Helicopters. 10 12 And what are your None. And currently, what aircraft do you fly for your company, right now? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 16 Currently, I'm not on the 17 certificate as an active pilot for the company. 18 do Part 91 flights. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 19 20 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Hawker, Gulfstream III, Gulfstream IV. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 23 24 And what Part 91 flights would aircraft be? 21 22 Okay. I only How often do you get a chance to go out and fly? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 25 Quite a bit. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 7 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 2 Just an estimation Danny, of your flying time, total flying time estimate? 3 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 15,000. 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 5 would have been in the Hawker, you estimate? 6 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 7 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 8 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 9 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 10 And how much of that 1500. PIC? SIC? PIC. All in PIC in the Hawker? 11 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 one, if you can just kind of give me a brief, 14 condensed, footnotes, version of your background. 15 led you up to this company? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 16 Primarily. Right. And this What Initially it was managing 17 airplanes for different people on their Part 91. 18 in 2008 when a lot of these people couldn't afford the 19 airplanes because of the drop in the economy, they 20 needed those airplanes to go to work. 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 MR. LEWKOWICZ: And Yes. So that's when I bought 23 Execuflight, which was dormant sort of certificate. 24 other words it was a certificate, but it didn't have 25 any airplanes on it. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 In 8 1 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 2 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Yes. So we put some airplanes in 3 there, and put a management team. 4 to satisfy those aircraft owners with their expenses. 5 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 6 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 7 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 8 civilian flying? 10 2008. Would you do all I did airline flying in South America. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 12 When was this? Did you do some flying down south? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 9 And then I was able Okay, tell me about that. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 13 I started in the BAe 146 as 14 a line Captain. So I trained for that at Reflectone 15 Training Seminar in Washington. 16 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 17 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Yes. And then we moved into the 18 727s, specifically ex-American Airlines 727s. 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. 20 company you were flying the box for? 21 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 22 What was the The same one as the 727s, AeroSur. 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 24 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 25 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Aer -- A-E-R-O-S-U-R. Okay. If you were NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 9 1 to explain Execuflight, and tell me about the company 2 in general, how would you just explain the company? 3 Its operations, its philosophy, and what it does? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 4 It's a 135 operation that 5 can do the charters as most 135 operations do here. 6 am comfortable in South America so we can target some 7 of the flights down to South America quite easily 8 because of my vast experience in South America. 9 also my experience with handling, and this kind of 10 I And stuff. I was AMC Station Manager for Bolivia, 11 12 dispatching military aircraft for the United States. 13 And I have a lot of background in South America, every 14 country, so that is a comfortable zone for us. 15 it may not be for a lot of people. 16 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 17 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Where Okay. And the rest is you know, 18 charter is charter. 19 brokers that are contracting us. 20 think the charter business per se is obtained by these 21 charter brokers that do their due diligence. 22 they find us to be suitable, they contract us. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 23 24 We're primarily working with do you have? And if How many employees Estimate. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 25 And we're not, I Twenty, 20, 25 on payroll. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 10 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 2 are pilots? 3 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 5 MR. LEWKOWICZ: That includes contract INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: MR. LEWKOWICZ: 11 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 12 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: A contract? Okay. And tell me about your fleet of aircraft. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 16 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 17 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Part 135? Yes, on Part 135. Well now, one Hawker 700, one Hawker 800, one Westwind, two Gulfstream IIIs. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 19 20 Yes. Probably six. 15 18 How many of those do you think you have? 10 14 They employees, or pilots as well. 8 9 I would say 11, 12. that include contract pilots? 6 7 Of those, how many And on the 91 side? I know some of those do both, but. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 21 Yes, some of the airplanes 22 that I just mentioned could do Part 91, but strictly 23 Part 91, two G4s. Additionally, right? 24 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Two G4s. Right. A Hawker 850, another G3. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 I 11 1 think that's it. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 2 3 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 5 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Currently, no. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: And who Robert Adamo. Okay. And when did he leave? 10 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 11 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 12 All right. was the previous Director of Operations? 7 9 Do you currently have a Director of Operations? 4 6 Okay, great. The first of October. In the process of replacing? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 13 I submitted myself as 14 Director of Operations to NA-THIZ-DA (phonetic), and 15 sent all my qualifications, of which I qualify in all 16 aspects. My POI would prefer me not to be the 17 18 Director of Operations, for his own reason. 19 the primary reason there isn't one named. 20 would be me, and I would have no problem with that. 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 MR. LEWKOWICZ: So that's Otherwise it Okay. That request was sent in 23 sometime in the beginning of October or before for me 24 being the Director of Ops. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 Yes. Have they made NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 12 1 a decision? 2 he say no? I know you said that he preferred not, did Or was it just -MR. LEWKOWICZ: 3 I felt that he was 4 uncomfortable with me. And I'm trying to make him 5 comfortable by putting someone out there that would 6 suit the job. 7 we realized that we couldn't use them because he didn't 8 have an ATP. We actually did name somebody, but then And even though that gentleman was a 9 10 Director of Ops in the past, it was for certificates 11 that did not need to have ATP. 12 ATP, is getting an ATP. 13 thought we could work with. So he was getting an And he was one source that we But I was, you know I wanted to be. 14 I want 15 to be. So, and I believe I'm well qualified to be. 16 And I have no guidance, I've not read any guidance that 17 suggests that I could not be. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 18 Of course we're 19 going to be talking to the POI too at some point in 20 time. Does your company have a Director of Safety? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 21 Director of Safety, Rich 22 Rivudo was acting as Director of Safety. 23 if he had that exact title to be honest with you. 24 I'm, that's as much as I want to comment on it. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 I'm not sure Okay, great. So As NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 13 1 owner, I know, you know, you have a lot of 2 responsibility but can you kind of talk to me about the 3 safety culture at your airline. 4 philosophy? 5 Execuflight? What is your philosophy about safety at MR. LEWKOWICZ: 6 What is the No negotiations on anything 7 that would, at any one way or another be a safety 8 compromise. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 10 Period. How do you get that word out to your employees? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 11 They know that I will not 12 take a chance on anything like weather, or a mechanical 13 of some sort. 14 isn't exaggeratingly big, so we kind of know each 15 other. 16 heard me you know talking about something related to 17 safety. That's non-negotiable. Our company And at one point or another, they may have And they know my position on that. There's a lot of advantages and disadvantage 18 19 in big companies versus small companies. 20 companies I guess one of the -- there's a lot of 21 disadvantages, but one of the advantages is that we 22 know each other. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 23 In small Just to be clear, is 24 that philosophy of no negotiations, no compromise of 25 safety written any place, or? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 14 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 1 No, I don't think it's. 2 know what you're getting at. 3 written specifically. But I don't have that There is like -- INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 4 5 the question. 6 of the company or what? Sir, I need to clarify Are you asking for a mission statement He just can't -- INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 7 I Being he was talking 8 about a philosophy, this is our philosophy when I -- 9 his answer was no negotiations, no compromise of 10 safety, paraphrasing. And that philosophy that I asked 11 about, I was wondering if it is institutionalized in 12 writing some place? 13 it. If it's a mission statement, so be 14 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 15 MR. LEWKOWICZ: No. 16 that mission statement per se. 17 stickers on the cockpit. 18 seen. Okay. We don't, there isn't Like for instance, You know stating, like I've And I have led, sign in cockpit as an example. 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Right. And with stickers for 21 reminders, okay. I don't have you know stickers 22 somewhere saying no compromise on safety. 23 it's, I think that's what you're referring to. But you know 24 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Right. 25 John Drago, did you come on the phone? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 15 MR. DRAGO: 1 2 I did, this is me, David. Thank you. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 4 little bit early, John. 5 yourself to Danny. MR. DRAGO: 6 We got started a If you just want to introduce Okay. Good afternoon Dan. This 7 is John Drago, we've spoken before. As you know I'm an 8 inspector with the FAA located in Cleveland. 9 role here is to simply assist the NTSB operations group And my 10 in the furthering of this investigation. 11 not be using any of the information provided here today 12 for any other reason than just to support the NTSB. 13 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 John. And I will Got it. Great. Thanks, Okay. And staying with the safety side, do your 16 17 employees have some means of reporting safety issues? 18 Either a de-identified type of reporting system, or 19 open door policy, or anything that's -- 20 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 Open door policy, yes. Okay. Can you explain that? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 23 If there's anything that 24 will compromise safety, it will ultimately also 25 compromise our reliability, and our dispatching of a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 16 1 flight. So rather than waiting until we are in a 2 position where we cannot resolve a mechanical, or we 3 were not told in time to be proactive on something, 4 they tell us. So we, that's what I encourage. 5 Is if you 6 have anything that we need to know about, tell us as 7 soon as we can. 8 by not being able to give them a good head's up. Because we don't want to hurt anybody 9 So it is always encouraged for them to give 10 information as soon as anything is known so we can act 11 immediately, give head's up to the brokers so they can 12 start preparing their necessary contingencies. 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 15 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Right. That's what I mean. Okay. 16 that communicated to your employees? 17 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 18 And how is Again, verbally that would be the one answer. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 19 And I think part of 20 my question also referred to de-identified reports. 21 you have anything like that? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 22 No. Write-ups are write- 23 ups, and those are written up in logs as they should 24 be, and they're attended. 25 something because it's not an MEL item, then that's a And if they can't resolve NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Do 17 1 mechanical. So that if it can be resolved through the 2 options that we may have such as MELs, then it gets 3 resolved that way. And then it gets attended to. 4 Some things are resolvable, others aren't. 5 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 6 control of the flights on the 135 side? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 7 8 The Director of Ops, the chief pilot, myself. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 10 Who has operation Are the captains at Execuflight, given the authority to refuse a flight? 11 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Yes. 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 MR. LEWKOWICZ: How? Well they'd know that ever 14 since they became a pilot, without -- that's basic. 15 if they don't know that then we're in trouble right off 16 the bat. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: Yes, what do you tell 17 18 So them on Execuflight? How Execuflight -- MR. LEWKOWICZ: 19 If the pilot is not 20 comfortable with the flight, for whatever reason, he 21 can identify the MEL that would allow him to do this. 22 And that's it. There's no questions asked, period. Even if it would be something that could be 23 24 covered. If they're uncomfortable, they're 25 uncomfortable, that's it. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 18 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 What about the 2 judgment call ones that aren't like MEL that allow, you 3 know based on that, but say weather? 4 but it may be uncomfortable? 5 refuse a flight based on that? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 6 7 Are they allowed to Absolutely, or divert. They're encouraged to. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 8 9 It may be legal, Okay. had a lot of interaction with the FAA. I think you You've told me 10 a little bit about some of it. 11 FAA come out and just ride the jump seats on some of 12 the flights or, do an observation? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 13 14 thing. Part 121, that's a common Part 135, I've never heard of it. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 16 Have you ever seen the about line observation that isn't a -- 17 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 18 (Simultaneous speaking) 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 And I'm talking A 299. A trainee, yes. Right a 299. Just going out and observing, en route inspection? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 23 I have never heard of this. 24 I don't know if this ever happens to any operator crew 25 for that matter. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 What about out on 2 the training? Do you go, I know you've been through 3 the training out in CAE in Dallas, correct? 4 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Yes. 5 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 6 there and just do observation of the trainee? 7 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Okay. Do you Probably about three years ago. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 12 13 I have. remember the last time you did that? 10 11 Do you ever go out Which one was it, do you -- Gulfstream or Hawker? 14 MR. LEWKOWICZ: I think it was a Gulfstream. 15 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. Have you ever 16 seen or heard the FAA go out themselves to the training 17 and kind of observe the training done at CAE? 18 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 Yes. For Execuflight? know they have to do that as part of a 142. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 21 I think so. I think I 22 remember hearing an instructor that was being checked 23 out. 24 out the instructor and it just so happens that they 25 were instructing us, so coincidently. So it wasn't, they weren't, they were checking NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 I 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 2 have like a formalized audit program of the training -- 3 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 5 Yes. -- where you have to send somebody out there? 6 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 7 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 8 Does Execuflight Yes. Who's responsible for that? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 9 Well the Director of Ops. 10 He can designate it to a line captain as well. 11 have designated it to Donny here, or the G pilot, or 12 me. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 Yes. Could And we talked 14 a little bit about your interaction with the POI. 15 often do you see the POI? 16 MR. LEWKOWICZ: How Well for sure, on all of my 17 299, or 293 orals have been with the POI, for most of 18 the years that we've been doing this. 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 21 But he knows who I am. And I see him quite often. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 23 Yes. How often do you communicate? 24 MR. LEWKOWICZ: At least once a month. 25 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. Let me talk a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 21 1 little bit about the crew. 2 members, correct? You knew both the crew 3 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 5 about the captain first. Yes. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 7 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: that process. 9 made aware of him? I did. Okay. Tell me about Where did he come from, and how were you MR. LEWKOWICZ: 10 Let me talk Did you hire the captain? 6 8 Okay. In this particular case, he 11 was a resume that had come in. 12 in my office. 13 background. 14 looking for Hawker crews. 15 English. 16 South America, this was also important to me. 17 most important thing, but it's a plus in our operation. I looked at his credentials, his He had experience in the Hawker. I was He spoke Spanish and Because of what I earlier told you concerning Not the He was employed at the time, flying a 18 19 And I interviewed him Hawker. He was not happy apparently, they -- 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 21 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Unhappy with? With his current employer. 22 He was, I'm -- he gave me some stories concerning how 23 the co-captain or copilot, I can't remember, was not 24 really up to the task. 25 So that was part of his discontent and why he was And it was being pushed on him. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 22 1 interested in the job. 2 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Yes. So they seemed like sort of 4 valid reasons to me. And I subsequently told him that 5 I'd like to fly with him to see what kind of background 6 he had. 7 interviewed him that way. 8 three or four flights. So we did a couple of Part 91 flights, where I I think a total of maybe And when I felt comfortable, that he was 9 10 indeed you know, a qualified pilot, his background and 11 airlines also made me comfortable because it was I 12 think Avianca. 13 hiring him, and retraining him based on our training 14 methods, which we did. So we decided to make the investment of INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 Okay. I know you 16 gave me the more current PRIA forms. 17 record, you did a PRIA background check on him? 18 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 from the PRIA background? 21 MR. LEWKOWICZ: But just for the Of course, yes. What did you learn Right off the bat, that he 22 had an administrative type thing. And it was based on 23 communications apparently, where he was asked to take 24 some sort of communication course. 25 out, I called him in. I saw it. He sent it to me. It came He sent me NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 23 1 the items concerning it. I looked at them. And again, because English is his second 2 3 language, it was something that I could see how this 4 can happen. 5 some sort of instructions and did something for the 6 purpose of not understanding. You know, where if he didn't understand 7 And then it was, you know, it was corrected 8 by whatever it was recommended that he would do, which 9 I think was to take some sort of small course or 10 something like that. And that was it. 11 violation. 12 concerned me to the point where I should not hire him. It was not some sort of sanction that INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 It was not a And just to be clear 14 here. You did had mentioned, you were talking about 15 it, you said administrative thing, it was a 16 communication issues, FAA enforcement, right? 17 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Correct. 18 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 19 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Well I don't know if you can 20 conclude that. 21 it's called an enforcement issue. 22 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 23 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 24 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 Okay, so -- You'd have to check, but I don't think All right, okay. An administrative issue. Fair enough. But it was, my point is, it was an FAA? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 24 1 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Yes, it was FAA. 2 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. Yes. Did at any 3 point in time, from you company, did anybody call his 4 previous employer to get any type of information? 5 did you solely rely on the PRIA? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 6 We relied on the PRIA. Or We 7 relied on our interview with him. I had talked to 8 other pilots that knew of him. 9 pilots within the field, and they spoke well of him. He recommended me some I happened to know one of the companies that 10 11 he worked for in Columbia, called Central Charter, of 12 which I know them well. 13 works there told me that he did work there and he was a 14 good pilot. And Rosie (phonetic), who So I did not, he didn't have any previous 15 16 135 or 121 experience in the United States, so it's 17 going to be sort of limited how much information I was 18 going to be able to get from that avenue. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 19 Okay. And to the 20 best of your experience, he voluntarily left his 21 previous -- 22 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Yes. 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: -- company? 24 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 25 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Yes. Okay. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 25 All right. 1 2 Renato. Let me talk a little bit about Did you hire Renato? 3 MR. LEWKOWICZ: I did. 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 5 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Tell me about that. He was recommended as well 6 by a pilot that is known to me. That I respect. 7 he told me that he was a Hawker pilot, and he was. 8 worked for a charter company here in this country, at 9 one that I knew. I brought him in. And He I interviewed him. 10 We were hiring him as an SIC, not as a PIC. 11 he was PIC qualified. Although He had a type rating, he obtained that type 12 13 rating at least two years prior to even coming to me, 14 maybe more. 15 me to be able to hire somebody that is not completely 16 unfamiliar with the aircraft. 17 as an SIC, so. He had time in the aircraft which good for And he was being hired 18 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 19 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 21 MR. LEWKOWICZ: For the Hawker? For the Hawker. Right. But he was well qualified 22 and this I knew. With him, as with a captain, I also 23 flew with him, Part 91. 24 took my son to the naval academy and he was -- in fact 25 it was my whole family. As a matter-of-fact when I And he was my copilot. And I NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 26 1 thought he did a good job. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 2 Any issues on his 3 background check as far as, I know you ran a PRIA on 4 him as well. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 5 I don't, I'm not too 6 familiar because the PRIA generally comes in and it's 7 given to, the G pilot is one that gets it. 8 one that requests it. 9 that respect. He's the He does all the due diligence in And you know I am not, I was not 10 familiar with anything that, there were like alarms 11 that I needed him to come and talk to me. But I didn't again, really home in on him as 12 13 I was hiring him as a second in command. 14 get in deep into his file. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 16 Okay. And I didn't And you said you flew with him. 17 MR. LEWKOWICZ: I did. 18 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: And you kind of 19 eluded a little bit, he did a good job. 20 of expand? 21 and your observation? His pilot skills based on your experience MR. LEWKOWICZ: 22 Can you kind He was, with him I flew in 23 the Hawker 700, the one that we still have. And it 24 was, it had weather through satellite drop. Plus it 25 had you know an FMS. And he, you know I remember that NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 27 1 we had to cross a line. And I had a chance of crossing 2 it at altitude, before we got into the Washington area 3 coming behind it. 4 through it the other way. Or get lower and then having to go And I remember we talked about those 5 6 options, and we decided to go this way, you know to the 7 west, and then parallel. 8 about the weather quite a bit as a matter-of-fact on 9 that flight. And you know, we'd talked And he was, you know he was good. 10 quick with having everything ready. 11 support as an SIC to a captain. 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 MR. LEWKOWICZ: He was He was good Yes. I didn't fly with him you 14 know that much. Let me see, I'm trying to think if it 15 was more than that one flight. I remember that flight. 16 And I think he was very happy. Actually there may have 17 been another flight but I can't really remember. 18 The comments that I had gotten from my other 19 captains have always been extremely positive about him. 20 So I respected that. And I had no reason to doubt him. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 21 I know you had 22 limited flight time with him. But did he appear to be 23 a SIC that would not have any issues speaking up to a 24 captain -(Simultaneous speaking) 25 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 28 1 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 2 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 Absolutely not. -- and pointing out -MR. LEWKOWICZ: 4 No. Speaking up to me, I 5 remember, this is a common thing. If you even 6 scheduled him to something that would appear that would 7 be playing with possible duty time limitations or 8 flight time limitations, he would speak out right off 9 the bat. He said that you know, he may have had this 10 11 kind of thing in his previous work. And when I 12 interviewed him, he said I just will not bust any rules 13 or regulations. 14 bat. I want you to know that right off the He was clear about that right off the bat. So a person that's looking for a job, 15 16 unemployed, and he comes and tells me that right off 17 the bat. I respected that. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 18 And then your brief 19 time flying with Oscar as well, tell me about his 20 piloting skills. 21 command skills. From what you could observe, his MR. LEWKOWICZ: 22 I'm going to give you 23 something that is going to, that is pertinent. Like 24 the four days prior to this accident, I was departing 25 on a Part 91 flight with our Hawker 850. He wanted to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 29 1 come over. And he came over. I wasn't sure why. He came for two reasons. 2 One, he wanted to 3 see that Hawker 850. Second, he was concerned about 4 where he was going, which he was going to Atlanta. 5 at the time the weather was below minimums for an ILS 6 approach because of fog. And He was going to PDK and he was concerned 7 8 about that being a short runway and of course weather 9 being that you are going to have to do a full ILS, 10 which means that you're going to use a good part of 11 that runway. 12 ATL, they got big runways there. So I told him okay, so you go to Atlanta Yes, but he said, is that okay? 13 And I said 14 that's beyond okay. If you think that you're going to 15 have to divert to Atlanta, you may want to give a 16 head's up to brokers that sold the trip. 17 know, so they can tell their people. 18 And if they don't like it, you don't go there. 19 don't go to PDK. Oh, okay, perfect. And let them And that's it. You End of story. That was four days before this particular 20 21 flight. He knew that that was something that is 100 22 percent his option. 23 fact I think, called one of the people that, I think 24 Sal and I think you know, shed his concern, concerning 25 the same weather. And he should do it. And he in And I think he told him we may have NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 30 1 to go to ATL which would have been perfectly fine and 2 encouraged. So he knew that. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 I know it might be 4 difficult being the owner and their boss, but did you 5 ever communicate outside the work environment with 6 Oscar or Renato? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 7 8 environment? INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 10 Outside the work Yes, socially to get the -- 11 MR. LEWKOWICZ: No. 12 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. Did you, and 13 these are just kind of standard questions. 14 hear either from them or from other pilots, concerns 15 about maybe Oscar or Renato having issues at home? 16 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 18 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Did you No. Family issues? I don't believe so. Financial issues? No. I think it's kind of 22 a standard question. Since you flew with both of them, 23 did you ever observe either pilot operate an aircraft 24 contrary to either company policy, or regulations? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 25 No. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 31 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 2 Let me talk a little bit about the Hawker since you are a Hawker pilot. Well first off, I want to just quickly ask 3 4 about dispatcher, sales people. 5 term dispatcher and just explain what their role is. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 6 Because we hear the Sale and follow-up sale with 7 the brokers. Assist the pilots with hotel rooms. 8 Assist the pilots with fuel releases in some airports. 9 Determining which airport has the better deals on fuel. 10 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Yes. That's it primarily, I mean 12 that's what it comes down to. They do not get involved 13 with anything technical in the flight. 14 they, over time they figured it out, you know by trial 15 and error. 16 they shouldn't even, you know ask us first, as to if 17 it's okay to quote. They have no -- What they shouldn't even quote. And what So they know those things. At this point, you know at this stage of the 18 19 game, they know what a short runway is and they know 20 what altitude means, so they when they have to come to 21 us to determine whether or not they can even quote 22 something. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 23 24 How many of those guys you have? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 25 Two. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 32 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 Two, all right. 2 then in general on a charter, who files the flight 3 plans? 4 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 5 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 6 MR. LEWKOWICZ: And The pilots. How is that done? They, most of them go to 7 Fltplan.com which is what we use. 8 own account, they can do it with their account -- but 9 actually no. They do it with our account. 10 account that I've had forever. 11 are setup there. 12 all kinds of things. And all the airplanes We can do APIS with that, we can do INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: And that's where they would file an alternate, if it was a part as well? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 17 Yes, that's where they would 18 just drop down to the alternate. 19 ever seen that? It's easy. Have you 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 21 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 22 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 23 There's also a, there's a little weather 24 They file it, they amend it if they have to. 15 16 And it's an And so they go in there and set it up. 13 14 If they have their Yes. I have. It's very easy. It is. I agree. icon on that page. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 25 Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 33 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 2 That you can click on. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 3 You can see the weather. 4 lot of people look at that to see thunder storm 5 activity. 6 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 7 MR. LEWKOWICZ: A Right. You kind of look at the, you 8 know pilots get scared with big old thunder storms and 9 stuff like that. Maybe they don't pay too much 10 attention to the low visibilities and stuff like that. 11 That's not that easily in your face as red, which is 12 thunderstorms. I don't know what there was that particular 13 14 day. I think it was low weather, I don't think it was 15 convective. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 16 Well is the 17 Fltplan.com weather function, is that an approved 18 method of getting weather briefing? 19 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Yes, for us. 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. Yes. If you 21 wanted, or the chief pilot wanted to know if the pilot 22 actually did that, got the weather briefing. 23 a means to determine that he actually received the 24 weather? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 25 Is there a means? Is there No, I NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 34 1 don't think there is a means. But I, with the 2 experience with both of those pilots, they would print 3 -- I remember when I flew the one time with Renato, and 4 actually with Oscar as well, they had so much 5 paperwork. 6 books and books of weather. They printed everything. They printed So it would be hard for me to imagine that 7 8 they would not just have not looked at the weather, but 9 printed a whole bunch of it. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 10 I guess what I'm 11 also kind of also getting at is the trip package that's 12 created for them. 13 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 That they create. It contains weight/balance information correct? 16 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 18 have the schedule for the flight? Yes, they do weight/balance. 19 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 21 That they create. Okay. And it will Yes. Right. But it doesn't, does it include -- 22 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Weather? 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 24 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 25 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Weather? No. Okay. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 35 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 1 No, that's up to them to 2 get. That's a technical thing. We're not, it includes 3 the names of the passengers, things that we have do 4 before. 5 checklist. 6 type rules. Like they don't have to do a no-flight We have to do that for them. That's TSA But weather and the stuff of -- because we 7 8 don't have a dispatch team as in the airlines then it's 9 up to them. 10 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: I'm sorry. 11 record I need to clarify the last question. 12 the trip package that they create, were you referring 13 to sales people as they? You said Or the pilots as they? INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 For the Yes, the testimony 15 we've got so far is that the sales people create a trip 16 package for the pilots. 17 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Right. 18 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: And we have also 19 heard that it includes various things, including 20 weather, weight/balance, and things of that. 21 want to get a clarification that the weather is not 22 part of the trip package? 23 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 24 I just No, weather is not part of the trip package. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 25 And we're talking NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 36 1 about at the time of the accident? 2 were in place at the time of the accident? 3 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 4 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 5 MR. LEWKOWICZ: The policies that Obviously, yes. Okay. Yes, weather is not part of 6 the trip package that we send to them saying this is 7 the weather. 8 as pilots because they are dispatching themselves. 9 Ultimately, when they close that door, they've done all 10 This is something that they have to look, their due diligence from a pilot's stand point. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 Great, well you just 12 led right, beautifully segued right into my next 13 question about flight following. 14 the flight following on these flights? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 15 How do you guys do The pilots are accustomed to 16 sending us text messages when they close the doors and 17 when they open the doors. 18 implemented by our Director of Operations, and we all 19 do it. That's something that was And they did it. And that doesn't mean, there's other ways 20 21 that we can do it, which is by following FlightAware, 22 like many people do. 23 Fltplan.com as well. But we don't necessarily like to go by that. 24 25 And we have live tracking through We want them to tell us that the door's closed. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 37 1 Because they can add something there that may be of use 2 to us. 3 again, so we can have a head's up. Like if there's any kind of issues. And so And so that particular, I remember, I get 4 5 the text messages too. 6 messages were like door's open, door's closed, door's 7 open, door's closed all the way down. 8 last door's closed from the city that they left. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 10 11 And that particular set of text Up until the Right. Okay. And who's on those texts, yourself obviously? 12 MR. LEWKOWICZ: I'm in there, and is Rich 13 Rivudo, the chief pilot is in there. 14 are in there. 15 relaying to the brokers who are probably also flight 16 following. They get it for the purpose of again, INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 17 Both Sal and Nick Right. I told you I 18 was going to get to the Hawker here in a second, so let 19 me talk and ask you some questions about the Hawker. 20 Just in general, you've got a lot of type ratings. 21 you've got a lot of time. 22 MR. LEWKOWICZ: How is the Hawker to fly? Very docile. Very easy to 23 fly if you compare it to a Westwind, as an example, 24 okay. If you compare it to a Citation it's not as 25 easy. But it's you know, it's not a Citation. But NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 And COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 38 1 it's not a Leer 60 or -- it's a very docile airplane. 2 I mean they made it extremely docile. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 Can you comment at 4 all about the list B characteristics? 5 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Yes, I can. It is an 6 airplane that if you put the amount of -- this airplane 7 was designed to not have thrust reversers. 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Yes. So you could go pretty slow 10 in this airplane because of the amount of drag that you 11 can throw into it. 12 I'm talking about, 45 degrees with the flaps, okay? 13 once you get into 45 degrees with the flaps on this 14 airplane, you've got a lot of drag. And the amount of drag specifically So 15 And the 700, even the 800s, the wings became 16 bigger on those but it's still kind of like a fat wing. 17 And you, once you put this full flaps, you have to be 18 continuously on that 700 feet a minute descent to be at 19 the same power level that you would always want to be. 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 21 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Yes. If you're full flaps and 22 trying to fly straight and level, you're going to need 23 a lot of power. 24 they put the lift-dumps. 25 like I think 60 degrees worth of flaps, sort of. One of the things that they did is So that actually gives you NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 39 MR. SHACKLEFORD: 1 2 Actually I think, it's more than that. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 3 So 70, yes. So now, this 4 thing really stops, you know. Of course you can't even 5 do that lift-dump in the air. But if, you wouldn't 6 even, you wouldn't ever want to do something like that. 7 But 45 degrees, you're going to lose speed relatively 8 quick in this airplane if you're doing anything level. 9 Okay? That's what I can tell you. And I had the opportunity to fly the Hawker 10 11 850, two, three days afterwards. And I you know I 12 remember putting the 45 degrees. I was doing a visual 13 approach and I could see that, you know, how that 14 airspeed, even in an 850, so -- 15 MALE PARTICIPANT: 16 MR. LEWKOWICZ: See the airspeed what? Decrease. So if you are not 17 inside that cockpit, that speed will you know, and 18 you've got the throttles where you have the throttles 19 99 percent of the time in any kind of approach, that 20 speed is going to go away awful quick. 21 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 the non-precision procedures for the Hawker. 23 you putting 45 out? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 24 25 Let me ask you about When are When you can, when you have the runway in sight. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 40 1 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 2 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Okay. When you clearly have the 3 runway in sight, and if it's a -- quite frankly if it's 4 a full approach to minimums, and you see the runway in 5 sight. It's probably encouraged not to even go full 6 flaps. And land with the flaps that you have. 7 In this case would have been flaps up. 8 MR. SHACKLEFORD: 9 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 20. 20, fine and which is not a 10 problem whatsoever. So rather than making a new 11 configuration change so low to the ground. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 12 Is there any 13 circumstance, well I shouldn't say, is there any normal 14 circumstance that a pilot would put flaps 45, prior to 15 the final approach fix? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 16 If they put flaps 45 on a 17 non-precision approach, it's because they saw the 18 runway. And they committed themselves for a landing. If they did anything else, they did it 19 20 because, creature of habit. Some of the type of 21 approach that they usually do, which would be an ILS 22 approach. 23 could go full flaps at the, you know capturing your 24 glide slope. And then under an ILS approach, yes you And different story. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 Yes, but my question NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 41 1 was prior to the final approach fix. 2 the glide slopes come in three, you go 45 on an ILS 3 until you bring it down. 4 fix on a level? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 5 6 But prior to final approach I wouldn't see why, I mean that's -- prior to the final approach fix? 7 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 8 (Simultaneous speaking) 9 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 10 Is there -- Why would anybody put a flap INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: I don't know. What I'm asking, is there a procedure -- 13 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 16 Right. 45 on IMC? 11 12 I understand when No. No. -- to do that? IMC on a localized approach? Only when you have the runway in sight. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 17 Is there any policy 18 within the operation of the Hawker that encourages 19 automation, or the autopilot to be used? 20 for these type of non-precision approaches? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 21 Particularly The answer is, I mean I 22 would encourage people to use the autopilot, you would 23 think. 24 doing any kind of approach that is to weather minimums. But they're using the autopilot when they're INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 25 Dan, the question is NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 42 1 if the company has, does Execuflight have a policy that 2 the pilots are either required or encouraged to use 3 autopilot when flying mission and approaches, for -MR. LEWKOWICZ: 4 5 We're non-specifically, a non -- 6 (Simultaneous speaking) 7 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: (Inaudible) that's 8 the question. It's not whether you would recommend it, 9 it's whether Execuflight has a policy? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 10 No there is no policy per 11 se. But again, I don't know who would be doing it any 12 other way, just on common sense. 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Okay. I am familiar with monitored 15 approaches. And I would encourage monitored 16 approaches. I've flown with pilots and we've 17 demonstrated monitored approaches, okay. And in this particular case as you well 18 19 know, the pilot that sees the runway is the pilot that 20 lands the runway once he says, runway in sight. 21 then the other guy gives up the airplane, who was 22 constantly in the cockpit looking and making sure that 23 nothing he wasn't looking at, at all. 24 this. 25 one of these people, because I've not flown with them And So I've shown I had not shown monitored approaches to either NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 43 1 on the line on 135. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 2 3 technique. Okay, so that's a There's not a policy or procedure -- 4 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 5 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: -- defined in 6 No. Execuflight manuals for monitored approaches? 7 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 doesn't train. Correct. And to be clear CAE Correct? 10 MR. LEWKOWICZ: That's correct. 11 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: And then I wanted to 12 touch on the practice, and I'm not sure if it's a 13 policy or not, tell me if it is or not, but the 14 practice of the captains flying primarily all the legs 15 that have passengers on them. 16 being, typically flying the empty legs, or 17 repositioning legs, or ferry flights? 18 MR. LEWKOWICZ: And the first officers I don't think that's a 19 practice. 20 pilots, if they feel that the copilot is doing a good 21 job then they will be given that leg. 22 that they're low time and they're still not there, then 23 they won't. The If they feel This is not an airline sort of policy, that 24 25 I think that's on a case-by-case basis. you know 50-50. That's not how it works in this NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 44 1 particular case because many of the pilots that come 2 with us could be of lower time than the typical pilots 3 that enter into an airline that have, you know much 4 more time, much more experience possibly. 5 to govern that accordingly. So we have And if it is a pilot that's got a type 6 7 rating and he's already experienced and the captain 8 feels comfortable with him, he'll give him the leg even 9 with passengers. As a matter-of-fact in this case, I would 10 11 suspect that the copilot would have probably be given a 12 leg because of the fact that his experience wasn't 13 line. But I don't know that for sure. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 15 more, how you doing? Do you need a break or anything? 16 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 18 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 19 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 21 I just have a few Nope. You're doing okay? Yes. Yes, let's take five. Okay, we'll take five. (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 22 23 off the record for five minutes and resumed.) 24 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 from a break. Okay, we're back And I just want to, I just have a few NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 45 1 more Danny. Want to ask you a little bit more about 2 the Hawker itself. 3 800. 4 on those. The differences between the 700 and I know I talked to you about your split in times I know there's some technological 5 6 differences between the two, as far as the cockpit 7 instrumentation and all. 8 little bit about that? 9 pilots transitioning back and forth from those 10 Can you kind of tell me a Are there any challenges to the different type of aircraft? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 11 No. They're relatively an 12 easy back and forth. Whether it's an 800 Collins 13 equipped, or an 800 Honeywell equipped, or a 700, 14 they're relatively the same as far as the key things. 15 Altitude, whether you're looking at it through a glass 16 imagery, because it's not the EVS like you would see in 17 a G4 or a Pro Line 21. Now Pro Line 21 that would be an entirely 18 19 different, entirely different matter okay? 20 would need training specific for that particular -- 21 even though it's the same type rating, I would 22 challenge that. 23 different airplanes, okay? Okay, because they're really two But I'm just trying to put the perspective 24 25 That they between, the difference between an 800, an 850 with Pro NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 46 1 Line 21, same type rating, okay, and a 700, 800. Now 2 even with those three the flight characteristics 3 concerning the same flaps 45 is going to be about the 4 same. In other words, if you're not watching the 5 6 airspeed, even the 850 with the longer wing, possibly a 7 little smoother, it's still going to decay speed in a 8 hurry if you do that, in that respect. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 Okay. On the 700s, 10 two different 700s, where the pilot sets the decision 11 altitude -- 12 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 different than the other. 15 different -MR. LEWKOWICZ: 16 17 Okay. Correct? -- on one is They're located in You're talking about a radar altimeter. 18 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 19 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 20 a non-precision approach. 21 considered. Right. Okay, radar altimeter is for It's not even to be 22 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 23 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Okay. That's a reference only 24 thing. The place to put the altitude is right on the 25 altimeter, and you've got three pegs on that thing, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 47 1 okay, three little pegs. 2 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 5 MR. LEWKOWICZ: The altimeter? On the altimeter. Okay. And you've got the pegs that 6 say your actual MDA, 500 above it, and 100 -- you know 7 that little ring that shows, and I know it had it in 8 the 700. 9 MDA, the actual MDA. 10 Because what you do is you set that on the Let's say in this case, what was it 1500 and 40 feet something like that? 11 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Yes. 12 (Off the record comments) 13 MR. LEWKOWICZ: So if you put 1540, on the 14 other side it's going to be 500 above it, and right 15 next to it, 100 to it. 16 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 17 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 18 That's where you set it right there as far as that's concerned. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 19 20 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 22 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Callouts. Okay, tell me about those callouts. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 24 25 Why is the 500 and 100 above the set? 21 23 Yes. A thousand to minimums, 1000 above field elevation, 1000 to minimums. You, that's NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 48 1 two different calls. 2 minimums, you would want to hear that. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 3 4 Five hundred to minimums, 100 to Yes. Is there a 500, four, three, two -MR. LEWKOWICZ: 5 No, no, not five, four, 6 three, two, one, no. Five hundred, 100 to minimums, 7 minimums, runway in sight, or go around. 8 two. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 Okay. 10 a 1000 feet field elevation callout. 11 MR. LEWKOWICZ: One of the You mentioned A 1000 feet field elevation, 12 that's you know so if the field elevation in that case 13 was 1100, at 2100 I would you know, I would like to 14 hear 1000 feet to field elevation. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 16 Okay, you'd like to hear that, but is that a standard callout? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 17 No, it's you know, I mean a 18 lot of this may come from my airline background. 19 which I you know if they're flying with me they're 20 going to hear stuff like that. 21 mimic it, great. 22 no. You know and if they Is it a, you know, are we an airline, INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 23 Okay, Okay. So you'd like 24 to hear the 1000 foot field elevation, but it's not 25 something that's required in the manuals? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 49 1 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 2 MALE PARTICIPANT: 3 MR. LEWKOWICZ: attention. I mean, that's all. Okay. MR. LEWKOWICZ: Each aircraft has its own standard operating procedures, of which mandates a 10 stable approach. 11 Gulfstream has it. 12 that. 13 to avoid it and you know, go around. And the Hawker has it. The And stable approach means just If the approach is not stable, it is encouraged INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 15 Do you have a stable approach criteria at this operation? 8 9 To see if they're paying INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 6 7 Why do you want to hear it at 1000 feet? 4 5 No. What's stable for the Hawker? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 16 Less than a 1000 -- and 17 probably for any airplane, less than a 1000 feet per, 18 you know 1000 feet per minute descent rate as far as 19 the vertical deflections, you know on the localizer. 20 So if you have a full deflection, or deflection and 21 it's continuing to go. 22 tremendous strong cross wind or something like that, 23 that's it, you're done. Maybe significant as of a 24 If you're in excess of a 1000 feet a minute, 25 anything under 1000 feet AGL, which would be one of the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 50 1 reasons you would call a 1000 feet to field elevation, 2 because this is where this comes into play. 3 that point, you know, if anyone's saying you know 4 anything higher than a descent rate than 1000 feet, 5 then it should be an abort. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 6 What about 7 configuration or anything like that? 8 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 9 You are at Well the configuration, you put it on that configuration. I mean you should only, 10 the configuration should be the configuration based on 11 your position of the flight. So -- INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 12 Danny, sorry to 13 interrupt. I think the question is whether the company 14 has a listing in the SOP for the configuration of the 15 airplane during stabilized approach? INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 16 The actual question 17 initially and I'm trying to clarify, but was do you 18 have stable approach criteria defined in your SOP? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 19 As a company, as a whole 20 company no matter what you fly? 21 airplane through the SOP of that specific aircraft? INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 23 Or for the specific Let's start globally first and then we'll go down to the Hawker. 24 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Okay. 25 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Globally, do you NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 51 1 have a stable approach criteria? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 2 No. Its stable approach 3 would only be specific to the aircraft based on the 4 criteria of the airplane that you're flying. 5 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Danny, you're not 6 expected to be an encyclopedia of knowledge on what's 7 in your manuals. 8 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Right. 9 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: So if you don't know 10 or if you want to reference the manual, just tell them 11 you want to reference the manual. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 12 Yes, and that's probably a - 13 - thanks for reminding me. That's, I would have to 14 look to see if there's anything specific to that you 15 know in our OM. 16 like your previous question? 17 approach is don't fly when you're tired. But once again, is it a company policy You know, motto, stable 18 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 19 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 20 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Yes. Yes, I don't -- It's, exactly. Okay. Yes, I'll 21 give you that. Don't expect you to 22 know all the manuals because you're not flying all the 23 aircraft. 24 you answered that. But was asking about the global and I think But now let me ask about the Hawker 25 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 52 1 specific, right. 2 PIC on, correct? And that is something that you fly 3 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Yes. 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. The Hawker, 5 does the Hawker have stable approach criteria, specific 6 to that Hawker 700? 7 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 10 Yes. Okay, what is that? A thousand feet. What I described earlier. 11 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 12 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Yes. A thousand feet a minute. 13 Beyond the 1000 feet a minute would be an unstable 14 approach inside you know, below a 1000 feet AGL. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 Okay. And then my 16 follow-up question was does that approach criteria 17 include anything about configuration for the Hawker? 18 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 I don't know. Okay. What about airspeed? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 21 The airspeed is, ref plus 10 22 for the condition of the flight, for the configuration 23 of the flight. 24 reason, your ref speed for flaps 45 say is 124, then 25 you should be flying at less than 134. So if you're at flaps 45 for whatever NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 53 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 Yes. Anything else 2 that you can remember as far as stable approach 3 criteria for the Hawker? 4 MR. LEWKOWICZ: No. 5 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: And then do you know 6 where that is written in the manuals, or the guidance 7 under Execuflight for the Hawker? 8 MR. LEWKOWICZ: In the training manual. 9 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: It's in, okay. Are 10 the pilots provided copies of the training manual, or 11 do they have access to it? 12 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 15 sticks. 16 drives. They do. Right now, lately we've got They get it at the training facility. 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 18 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 19 Okay, how? Flash Yes. And they have the whole manual right there. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 Great. Is there a 21 revision process that allows them to update if there 22 are changes to those manuals? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 23 When they go, they get a new 24 flash, if there is such a thing. Some pilots actually 25 have it in their iPads, because they've shown them to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 54 1 me. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 2 3 training? 5 When they go where? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 4 When they go to All the time if it's in their iPad. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 6 No, I'm sorry. I 7 was talking about the revisions, you said for revisions 8 -MR. LEWKOWICZ: 9 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 10 11 Oh when they -- revisions when they go. -- they get new Go where? 12 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Yes, training, that's CAE. 13 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Great. We talked on 14 that, and I think -- you've been real helpful I think 15 you got all the ones I had for you Danny. 16 -- I want to see if Sean has a couple questions for you 17 real quick. 18 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 19 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: Got past the Okay. I just have a few. 20 You've given us a lot of input so thank you. 21 have to go through all this. Sorry you Towards the beginning, you were talking 22 23 about because you don't have a Director of Ops, you'd 24 put in with the FAA to do that. 25 you, would you have kept on as the CEO and a Director If that was granted to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 55 1 of OPs or would you have separated the two and done 2 something else with the CEO position? 3 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 4 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 5 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 6 answer would be for that. 7 me, resign CEO. 8 that, and then I'll give you the DO. 9 that? 10 Okay. So, I don't know what the If they would have said to Put your wife as CEO or something like Probably. Would I have done I mean if it would have been a condition. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 11 12 Never gave it any thought. Okay. Thank you, I just had a question on that. And you also said that you communicate with 13 14 your POI monthly, or every month or something. 15 a regular scheduled communication meeting? 16 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 17 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 18 Is that No. Or is it just on average, it's about once a month? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 19 On average, that's about 20 once a month. It could be twice and then it could that 21 I don't talk to him for 60 days. 22 talk. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 23 You know, but we do Okay. Now going on 24 down just a little bit further you had talked about how 25 when you get a new FO, you get comments from captains NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 56 1 to see how he is as a pilot, how they are doing 2 interacting and all that. 3 whether they just upgraded or whatever, do you seek 4 that kind of information from the second in command? 5 Or do you just expect them if there's a problem to come 6 to you? When you have a new captain, MR. LEWKOWICZ: 7 Each have a vote. I mean 8 what a second in command has to say to me is equally as 9 important as what a PIC has to say. So if there's any 10 -- so I would, I would ask you know how everything is 11 going and independently, right? 12 that's your question, right? And I mean I think INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 13 It is, you know like 14 for instance, Oscar. Did you ask any of his FOs that 15 had flown with him in the past, how he was as a 16 captain? As a pilot? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 17 I ask Donny. If Donny was 18 his FO, and he give him -- fly because you know Donny 19 could have been his FO. 20 could have. 21 possibly you know. 22 fine. 23 these people. They're both captains and they I asked Joe who probably acted as his FO, You know how was Oscar? You know, No one threw any alarms at me about either of 24 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 25 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Understood. I'm sorry, to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 57 1 clarify your answer, you asked Donny before the 2 accident at some point whether Donny had -- 3 (Simultaneous speaking) 4 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 5 specifically if I did. 6 him? Have I ever asked you about, MR. SHACKLEFORD: 7 8 I can't remember No, I don't think so. We've discussed things just in general talking. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 9 Right. 10 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 11 hypothetical, you may have asked? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 12 So your answer is a Yes, I remember asking Joe, 13 because I remember Joe flew with him once on a Part 91 14 flight too. 15 went and fixed it. 16 didn't close right. 17 we fixed it, and we sent another airplane to pick up 18 the passengers. You know they, one of the windows And we sent a crew from here, and So, that's it. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 19 20 And they actually had a mechanical and we I'm going to pause the recording a second. Okay, we're back on. 21 Okay you also said 22 that just a few days prior to the accident that the 23 first officer had come to you with a weather concern in 24 PDK, I believe you said. 25 to, divert to Atlanta. And you told him if you have Do you remember who he was NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 58 1 paired with on that trip? 2 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 3 I think, Nabil. Nabil Zitouni I think was his copilot. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 4 Oh, and so it was the 5 captain that had come and asked questions about PDK, 6 not the first officer. Is that correct? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 7 No, the captain came to look 8 at the airplane. Oscar, specifically came to look at 9 the airplane and also to you know, shed his concern 10 about the weather and PDK. 11 minimums. That he said it was below I says -- and I figured it was because of 12 13 fog, and we know that fog is going burn out. And I 14 asked him when is your flight? 15 hour. 16 going to be the case. But I says, but if it is the 17 case, don't go there. Go to Atlanta, Hartsfield and 18 you'll be fine. He says in another So, you know I pretty much knew that that's not And it wasn't even because of him not 19 20 thinking he can get into that airport based a high ALS 21 provision that that airport did have, but because the 22 runway was short. 23 weather. 24 with the size of the runway. So he was looking beyond just the He was looking at the weather in combination And he wasn't comfortable with the size of 25 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 59 1 the runway for that particular weather, in that 2 particular airport, which is also a skinnier. 3 only I think 90 feet instead of your typical 150. 4 this told me, that things like this are in his mind. 5 Okay. 6 talked to me about that. 7 to do. So It told me, he came, he purposely came and And I told him exactly what INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 8 9 It's Thanks, that clears it up. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 10 11 before. 12 to five days before. Okay, all right. I appreciate it. And this wasn't a month This wasn't two months before. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 13 Okay. This was four And I just need 14 a little clarification. I think you said it earlier. 15 You guys use, you do not use radar altimeter for any 16 decision making on an approach? 17 guidance? 18 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 19 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 20 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 21 You only use that as a On a non-precision approach. On a non-precision. Let's clarify that. Non- precision approach, a radar altimeter -INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 22 So Danny he's 23 asking, the question is you guys, so he's referring to 24 Execuflight? INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 25 Execuflight, yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 My 60 1 apologies. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 2 He's referring to 3 Execuflight pilot's use of radar altimeter and whether 4 there's -- is your question whether there's a company 5 policy on it or -- 6 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 7 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 8 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: During a non- precision approach. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 11 12 Radar, I don't know if there's a company policy -- 9 10 Correct. Yes, I don't think there's a company policy, but I mean. 13 MALE PARTICIPANT: 14 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Okay then. The answer to that is no. 15 mean I don't think anyone -- the pressure altitude is 16 what the term is for missed approach point on a non- 17 precision approach, period. 18 reference only. Radar altimeter is to INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 19 I Okay, and the last 20 question. When your crews are doing a flight, whether 21 it's 30 minutes long, or 3 hours long, are there 22 approach charts in the aircraft that if while en route 23 there's an emergency and they have to divert, that they 24 can do divert to someplace with below, you know with 25 low minimums? Do they have those charts available to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 61 1 them? 2 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 3 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 4 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 5 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 6 Yes they do. They have it in their iPads. So you guys can use electronic flight bags? 7 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 8 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 9 How? Part 91. How about on a Part 135 flight? 10 MR. LEWKOWICZ: We cannot. 11 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: So then what would 12 they use at that point? What would your crews use if 13 they had to divert to an airport -MR. LEWKOWICZ: 14 And it just so happened to 15 be an airport that they didn't have the charts, in 16 paper, and if it's an emergency because of an emergency 17 situation, they would handle it as an emergency. 18 under that circumstance they could use it. 19 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 20 Okay. And So there's no paper charts in your -MR. LEWKOWICZ: 21 No, I'm not saying that. 22 I'm saying that, I'm giving you the exact story. 23 They're not pressured of not having the things. 24 have electronic charts that they do not use for Part 25 135, they use the paper charts for 135. They And they take NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 62 1 all the paper charts that is required for them to take 2 for Part 135. Does that include every airport between two 3 4 cities? And if those two cities is between Fort 5 Lauderdale and say Las Vegas, with a whole bunch of 6 possibilities, the answer is no. And if all of a sudden they had an issue 7 8 right in the middle, and it just so happened that it 9 was also a complete IMC day and they really needed to 10 land because it was smoke. Let's not talk about where, 11 are they going to open up their iPads -INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 12 Danny, the question 13 is whether they have paper charts on the airplane? 14 there paper charts on the airplane? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 15 16 the airplane, yes. They do have paper charts on And I answered that. 17 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 18 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 19 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 20 MR. LEWKOWICZ: the airplane. Yes. That they print up, or I think they're always on Yes. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 23 24 Paper approach charts? that are always on the airplane? 21 22 Are Okay. And they don't have to -MR. LEWKOWICZ: 25 But they also have the iPad NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 63 1 too. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 2 Okay, and that's fine. 3 I have to ask one other question, where are those paper 4 charts stored on the airplane? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 5 In the closets, in the 6 little, what's that cabinet in between the seats? 7 little cubicle. 8 There's a place. 9 storage areas. 11 If it's a G3 there's in, you know just in a cabinet? But on the Hawker it's Is that what -- MR. LEWKOWICZ: 12 13 I don't know what you call it. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 10 The Yes, in the cabinets. You open a little door and they're in there. 14 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 15 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay. Let's make sure, I'm 16 sorry to interject. 17 about the same thing. 18 approach plates. 19 charts you're answering and saying are on the airplane, 20 are those like the enroute charts -- 21 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 22 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 23 Let's make sure we're all talking There are charts and there are Like the enroute charts. Are the Right. They've got the airways, and is -- 24 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Exactly. 25 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Got it. I think NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 64 1 what Sean's trying to ask is, are there approach 2 plates, like the old binders, the little leather 3 binders with all the -MR. LEWKOWICZ: 4 5 like 12. Binders, no. Yes. No, no like a whole, Okay. They have only the ones, they only print the 6 7 ones that are pertinent to the flight, which is of 8 course departure alternate, destination alternate. 9 They may put one or two others, like as an example. 10 Van Nuys may put LAX in Burbank, may print both of 11 those. 12 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 13 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 14 Okay. Okay, and so that's what they have. So your question is, do they have beyond 15 16 that? No, they don't have beyond that. 17 I just said. 18 that you were talking about, you know if they have to 19 divert, what would they do under that emergency? 20 think I gave you the answer to that as well. But if you get into that hypothetical INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 21 They have what 22 you giving the clarification. 23 all I've got, thank you. No, and I appreciate So thank you. 24 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 25 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: I That's Okay. Donnie? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 65 MR. SHACKLEFORD: 1 No, the only thing I have 2 to talk about, is there anything as a captain, your 3 captain, that you can think of that you could tell me? 4 You know, am I doing a good job? 5 And I just, you know but I don't know if that has 6 nothing to do with the accident. 7 - 8 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 9 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Am I doing a bad job? But I'm just saying - No, I -Hey guys, if you 10 want to have that discussion, unless the NTSB believes 11 it's pertinent to the investigation, I think that's 12 something we should do outside the record. 13 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Right. I was only going to 14 clarify one thing that came to mind. 15 relative autopilot use. 16 the question as to flying an approach to minimums. 17 we're doing an ILS approach, then I would encourage, 18 and I would think that they're doing you know, coupled 19 approach with the autopilot, okay. And that is And that's if we go back to If If you're doing a non-precision approach, 20 21 okay there's, it could be either way, okay. 22 even be encouraged to do it. 23 it by hand. 24 positive. And it may Or it may be okay to do Primarily because of the fact that you're If you're by hand, you know -- and I think 25 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 66 1 Renato would be somebody like, he thinks that he can, 2 you know just instant reaction. 3 the throttle. 4 relying on automation. 5 altimeter. 6 And you're concentrating and you're in a position to 7 immediately execute on a go-around, should somebody say 8 go around. You got your hands on You got your hands on. You're not And then you're looking at your You're looking at your airspeed indicator. Poof, you know and that's it. Whereas if you're with the autopilot, and 9 10 it's not a let's say a pseudo (phonetic) type descent. 11 And you're doing something other than, okay like 12 dropping and dragging. 13 do it with an autopilot. 14 circumstance, I probably, possibly would want to do it 15 hand. 16 react. I don't know if I would want to I think under that I would like to have the airplane in my hand to So it depends you know exactly what kind of 17 18 non-precision approach you're doing. 19 an RNAV, then you can have a pseudo (phonetic) because 20 the GNS giving it to you, then you may be able to get 21 away with, you know with an autopilot. 22 almost a coupled approach, to some degree. 23 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 24 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 25 If you're doing Because it's Yes. The way that this one, they were doing it, they wouldn't have had a pseudo NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 67 1 (phonetic) type thing. It would have been you know, it 2 should have been like this. 3 how it was. 4 me if they weren't with an autopilot? 5 it would surprise me under that particular approach. And I'm not sure exactly You guys know that, but would it surprise I don't know if If it was an ILS, I would encourage to do, 6 7 it would be encouraged to do it, if it's down to 8 minimums. 9 that, okay. 10 11 I want to clarify INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: John on the phone, do you have any questions? MR. DRAGO: 12 13 Okay, coupled approach. David, actually I have a couple. We doing all right, break wise? 14 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 MR. DRAGO: 16 Danny, do pilots use the same checklist for 17 operational flights that they do with the 142 training 18 partner, Simuflight? 20 checklist. And we take our own Okay, and it's used at both facilities? 23 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 24 MR. DRAGO: 25 Yes. It is our own checklist, yes. MR. DRAGO: 21 22 All right then, okay. MR. LEWKOWICZ: 19 Yes, we're on. Yes. It's used in the aircraft and at the training facility? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 68 1 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 2 MR. DRAGO: 3 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 4 Correct. Okay. Fact is the training facilities encourage you to bring your own checklist. MR. DRAGO: 5 Yes, very good. Are any of your 6 checklists such as the descent checklist, are they 7 silent checklists? 8 procedures silent? Are any of your checklists MR. LEWKOWICZ: 9 The descent checklist, I 10 mean they call it and the copilot will probably do it 11 silent. 12 confirmed. 13 gear, anything that moves needs to be confirmed by the 14 non-flying or the non, the person that's not doing the 15 checklist. There are some things that are to be Moving items like you know flaps, trims, Seatbelts, no smoking, circuit breaker 16 17 checks, stuff like that could be silent. What's not 18 silent is once it's completed there is checklist 19 complete stated by the first person that did the 20 checklist. If there's challenges, then you know certain 21 22 things have challenges and they must be challenged. 23 Again, flaps would be one of those things. 24 would be one of those things. MR. DRAGO: 25 Okay. Three green So even if you do some NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 69 1 items silently, you will say descent check complete? 2 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 3 MR. DRAGO: 4 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 5 MR. DRAGO: 6 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 7 MR. DRAGO: Correct. Audibly? Correct. Is that true? That is correct. Okay. I just want to clarify 8 something that I believe it was David, asked earlier 9 about setting the minimum descent altitude, and setting 10 the decision height. For example, let's say that the 11 minimum descent altitude is 1540, 1500 and 40 feet. 12 And where as compared to an ILS where you may set 13 decision height for the radar altimeter. 14 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 15 MR. DRAGO: 16 Correct. Where in the aircraft are you setting the MDA at 1540? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 17 18 where you're descending. 19 not a radar altimeter MDA. On the altimeter. It's an altimeter MDA. 20 MALE PARTICIPANT: 21 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 22 That's It's Is it above? Yes, are you familiar with these, are you a pilot? MR. DRAGO: 23 Yes I am, and I'm typed in this 24 aircraft. And I just want to clarify that, what I'm 25 saying is for the autopilot. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 70 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 1 2 preselector, where you put the preselector? MR. DRAGO: 3 4 Oh, you're talking about the Yes, yes. I'm asking you where in the aircraft do you set the 50 foot -MR. LEWKOWICZ: 5 Yes, there is no 50 foot 6 intervals in the autopilot. 7 1540, you either, you have to use 1600. 8 doing it autopilot, and you know you're saying okay our 9 minimum decent altitude is 1540, you could only do 10 1600. MR. DRAGO: I understand that, but the question is, where do you set that? 13 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 14 MR. DRAGO: 15 MR. LEWKOWICZ: For the airplane to -- The spot, on which -In other words as a visual 16 to you to remember? 17 it you know with automation? MR. LEWKOWICZ: On the preselector. On that particular, on the altitude preselector. MR. DRAGO: 22 23 It's a setting where you can stop it with automation. 20 21 Or as a setting that you can stop MR. DRAGO: 18 19 So if you're You've got to go to the 1600, and that's why -- 11 12 So if it happens to be a Okay, great. I thought you had said earlier that you set that on the ADI. 24 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 25 MR. DRAGO: No. If I set, my next question -NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 71 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 1 No, no, that's for 2 reference. 3 other words on the actual altimeter there's a, just 4 like the reference that you put on the airspeed 5 indicators as to what your V1 and V2, and you know 6 VFSs. 7 All right, same thing. In Those are reference things that help you, okay. MR. DRAGO: 8 9 What I said to you was for reference. Okay, great. And the next question would be, where do you set the decision 10 height, which was probably not applicable in this 11 approach, but where in the aircraft do you set decision 12 height, for your altimeter alert? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 13 Once again, if it's a non- 14 precision approach you can't. If it's a precision 15 approach and let's say that the decision height on this 16 one was MSL 1540. 17 1540. 18 1540, you know if it was an ILS it would probably be 19 generally most of them are 200 feet AGL, right? Once again, you put it right there, Let's, under that hypothetical it wouldn't be So whatever the AGL is under an ILS, that's 20 21 what you would bug. A, your pressure altimeter, and B, 22 in that particular case, the radar altimeter. MR. DRAGO: 23 Okay, I'm asking about where you 24 set decision height for an ILS in that aircraft, the 25 200 foot decision height? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 72 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 1 You could put it on the 2 radar altimeter for the 200 feet, but it's still 3 mandated with the, you know with your altimeter. MR. DRAGO: 4 Okay, and thank you for that. 5 Also with regard to operational controls, I think you 6 said that -- if I've got this right. 7 dispatch themselves and by the time the door is closed 8 they have done their due diligence. 9 operational control, do you have more than one tier of 10 operational control? 11 used? As far as Or who causes that aircraft to be MR. LEWKOWICZ: 12 The pilots 13 be used? 14 this case my aircraft. 15 sales? Who causes the aircraft to Well I mean it's a company aircraft. It's in What causes it, I mean charter 16 I don't think I understand the question. 17 MR. DRAGO: Okay, so what, do you or your 18 management team have to assign the flights to the 19 pilots? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 20 Yes. A trip gets sold, and 21 then the chief pilot or myself we will look and see 22 which pilot is available, which pilot should do that 23 trip. 24 to me, it's fed to -- Rich will consider it. 25 like it, we can go with it. And you know based on that criteria that is fed And if we If we don't like it, we NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 73 1 don't go with it. MR. DRAGO: 2 Okay. Crew pairings, is that, 3 who does the crew pairings? 4 first officer and assigns them to the flight? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 5 The captain that takes the We do. Rich, myself. Once 6 again, please understand this is a small company. So 7 at this point both Sal and Nick are very aware of what 8 will be rejected or not rejected. 9 know, they learn quick. So they don't you So this particular pairing was 10 a beautiful pairing, those two people they were well 11 qualified together. MR. DRAGO: 12 13 you said we do. 14 and Rich? Okay, and just to clarify that, And you're referring to just yourself 15 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 16 MR. DRAGO: 17 I have. Rich Rivudo, yes. Okay, great. I think that's all Thank you very much. 18 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 Let me maybe ask Donnie's question in a way 21 Thanks, John. that makes -- 22 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 23 MR. SHACKLEFORD: 24 No problem. More sense? Yes, it makes more sense. So I don't interrupt it this time. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 No, that would NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 74 1 actually be pertinent to the investigation and a 2 general sampling anyway. Pilots at your airline are evaluated by the 3 4 FAA, and because of their certificates of proficiency 5 and things like that. 6 or I'm sorry, a means at your operation to evaluate 7 them as employees? In other words, you know they may make 8 9 Is there a means at the airline, every, they may be proficient, make good landings, fly 10 the airplane really well. 11 Do you have feedback to evaluate them on how they are 12 as employees of the company? MR. LEWKOWICZ: 13 But treat the customers bad. Yes, I mean if there's 14 derogatory comments through brokers and stuff like 15 that. 16 there are ways, I mean again, if the brokers don't like 17 them or something of this nature, they'll make that 18 notion. We'll hear about it. And you know if -- and They'll let us know. And if we have to talk to the pilots 19 20 concerning, hey, you know they're complaining about you 21 because you smoke, not in flight. 22 given point. 23 somewhere you know where please put your complaints in 24 here? We'll know about it. But you know at any Is there a dropbox No. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 What about, do you NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 75 1 do follow-up surveys with customers? 2 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 3 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 4 MR. LEWKOWICZ: No. No we don't have that. Why not? Probably because we haven't 5 gotten that big. I mean even though we're not totally 6 small. 7 it could be something that I could have done. 8 haven't. Probably because you know, there's -- I guess INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 10 MR. LEWKOWICZ: 11 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: I just Okay. I just haven't. Through the logical 12 roads to this accident, I have to ask, did either one 13 of these pilots receive any complaints from customers 14 that you were aware of? 15 MR. LEWKOWICZ: No. 16 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 17 Anybody else have anything else? 18 (No audible response) 19 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: That's all I have. Great. Anything 20 else that you can think of to add to help us Danny, in 21 the investigation? 22 you want to make sure gets included? 23 MR. LEWKOWICZ: Something maybe we didn't ask that I just want make mention 24 that I know, I've been flying for a long time. 25 specifically I got my license in 1979. That's, And I've flown NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 76 1 in airlines. I was a chief pilot for the airline. 2 I've flown with Execuflight obviously. 3 this type of work. I'm not new in And I've not been criticized as a pilot, 4 5 from many of my peers. I've trained many, many, many 6 pilots in the airline. I've had pilots that were 7 coming in to a 727 with 500 hours total time. 8 they were flying a 727. And here So I've seen the development of pilots from 9 10 a very young age. I was a pilot with Bolivian license. 11 Pilot with Chilean license, as a check airman for both 12 Bolivia and Chile. 13 If I have pilots that are perfect and they're loved by 14 the customers, but not loved by the other crew members 15 because of deficiencies, they no longer work with us. And I critique pilots quite a bit. I have a couple of cases right now. 16 Good 17 guys, people that I like and the passengers actually 18 like them too. 19 the rest of the people because they're behind. 20 people that have airline experience, people that have 21 good experience okay, with type ratings. 22 don't click. But they don't make a good pair with And But they And we don't use them. So I guess what I'm trying to say, is that 23 24 this particular case, with those particular pilots, was 25 a total surprise to me. I mean it wasn't like, oh I NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 77 1 saw that happening. Oh, yes we should, nobody in our 2 company could, nobody in our company could say this is 3 something that was waiting to happen. 4 two people, okay. So why did it happen? 5 Not with those You guys tell me. I 6 mean you guys will tell us. But it is not something 7 that you know that we expected to happen, remotely, 8 okay. 9 could have been a different grouping of people that we And there is a difference between, I mean it 10 would have had possibly second thoughts of. 11 stay away from that type of positioning. And we And in this particular case, that's exactly 12 13 the case. These people got along with each other. 14 They liked each other. 15 and those people that I think are great people and are 16 just very educated and very you know, we don't have 17 them. 18 sense for me to use them because they'll come to work 19 for very little. They respected each other. We don't use them. So, And that economically makes We still don't have them. Okay, so I just wanted to make sure that you 20 21 guys understand that. Because it's, I think it's 22 important. 23 And when I say to me, I'm just -- that's why I told you 24 where I come from, my background. 25 you to think that -- you know I have hands on with this This didn't, this was a big surprise to me. I just don't want NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 78 1 company. And you know, I know when this happened I 2 3 had two people in the simulator. I had two people 4 taking courses in the simulator. One is a PIC and the 5 other ones an SIC, you know to have additional crews to 6 prepare. Remember we had three Hawkers at the time, 7 8 and were thinking of putting the 850 also on 9 certificate, which isn't. 10 would like it in there. 11 that. 12 who we invest in. 13 every time, every event. But the owner said that he So I'm preparing crews for And I was you know careful as to who I pick and It's a lot of money that we invest It's not free. We don't own the simulators, and so this is 14 15 a pretty big ticket. And you've got to be careful, you 16 know who you hire and you know who you invest in. 17 you want it to be a long term thing, not a five minute 18 thing. So So in all of these things, you know require 19 20 eventually money and stuff like that. And I'm not here 21 to throw it away or anything like that. 22 to be very careful who I hire, why I hire them, and how 23 much money I'm going to invest in them. So I'm trying 24 Well that's the case here. So none of these 25 guys paid for their own training, we paid for it. And NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 79 1 again, common sense on my part is why would I invest in 2 somebody that is worthless? 3 that I think that could be worthless? 4 pilots -MALE PARTICIPANT: 5 6 So and is there somebody MR. LEWKOWICZ: 8 MALE PARTICIPANT: 9 MR. LEWKOWICZ: I think you got it? Thank you for your time. All right. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 10 Sorry. Appreciate it. Thanks, Danny. (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 12 13 I think you've said enough. 7 11 You know some off the record.) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 80 C E R T I F I C A T E MATTER: Execuflight Hawker Accident Akron, OH, November 10, 2015 Accident No. CEN16MA036 Interview of Danny Lewkowicz DATE: December 3, 2015 * IFSFCZ DFSUJGZ UIBU UIF BUUBDIFE USBOTDSJQUJPO PG QBHF 1 to 80 inclusive are to the best of my QSPGFTTJPOBM ability a true, accurate, and complete record of the above referenced proceedings as contained on the provided audio recording GVSUIFS UIBU * BN OFJUIFS DPVOTFM GPS OPS SFMBUFE UP OPS FNQMPZFE CZ BOZ PG UIF QBSUJFT UP UIJT BDUJPO JO XIJDI UIJT QSPDFFEJOH IBT UBLFO QMBDF BOE GVSUIFS UIBU * BN OPU GJOBODJBMMZ OPS PUIFSXJTF JOUFSFTUFE JO UIF PVUDPNF PG UIF BDUJPO. ----------------------- NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD -----------------------------: IN RE: : : THE EXECUFLIGHT HAWKER : ACCIDENT THAT OCCURRED IN : AKRON, OHIO ON NOVEMBER 10, : 2015 : : -----------------------------: INTERVIEW OF: NTSB Accident No. CEN16MA036 ANDREW CUESTA Wednesday, December 2, 2015 Banyon Aviation Ft. Lauderdale Executive Airport Ft. Lauderdale, Florida BEFORE DAVID LAWRENCE, Investigator, NTSB SEAN ETCHER, Investigator, NTSB NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Interviewee: MR. JAHR:, ESQ. Wicker Smith O'Hara McCoy & Ford P.A. SunTrust Center 515 East Las Olas Boulevard, Suite 1400 Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 Tel.: (954) Fax: (954) On Behalf of ExecuFlight: DONNIE SHACKLEFORD On Behalf of the Federal Aviation Administration: JOHN DRAGO* *Present by teleconference NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 3 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1 (Time not disclosed) 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 All right. Good afternoon. 4 My name is Captain David Lawrence and I'm an 5 investigator with the National Transportation Safety 6 Board. 7 ExecuFlight Hawker accident that occurred in Akron, 8 Ohio last month. I'm the operations group chairman for the My role here is to learn what I can about 9 10 the accident so I can assist in the investigation, and 11 hopefully prevent this from reoccurring. 12 our process, we invite parties to participate in the 13 investigation to provide us technical expertise. As part of For this group, we have the NTSB, 14 15 ExecuFlight, Textron, and the FAA. 16 around the room and allow everybody to introduce 17 themselves and provide their affiliation. MR. ETCHER: 18 19 Good afternoon. MR. JAHR: Chris Jahr with the Wicker Smith Law Firm. 22 MR. SHACKLEFORD: 23 Captain on the Hawker for ExecuFlight. MR. CUESTA: 24 25 Sean Etcher with the NTSB. 20 21 Hi. Now, we'll go Donnie Shackleford, And I'm Andrew Cuesta. Pilot G3, pilot with ExecuFlight. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 4 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. DRAGO: 3 On the phone, please. John Drago. Inspector with the FAA. MR. LAWRENCE: 4 Great. And John, if you 5 wouldn't mind, since Andrew's a pilot, explain your 6 role in this investigative process. MR. DRAGO: 7 John, here. Yes, sir. Thank you. 8 hi. 9 the operations group and any way I can. Andrew, My role here today is to help support 10 And that's, with that said, there's nothing 11 that I would do in terms of any type of enforcement or 12 any backlash based on anything that happens here. 13 just to support the operations group. 14 MR. CUESTA: 15 MR. LAWRENCE: Understood. It's Thank you. Thank you, John. Thank you. Great. So you're 16 welcome to have representative of your choice to 17 attend. 18 in this? Is Chris here, who you'd like to participate 19 MR. CUESTA: 20 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes, please. Okay, great. It's part of 21 the process, I'm going to record the interview, and we 22 will have a transcription made which will eventually 23 become part of the final, or the factual report. 24 audio will not be part of any public docket. 25 have any questions about the process? The Do you NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 5 1 MR. CUESTA: 2 MR. LAWRENCE: No, sir. Okay. Great. If at any 3 point in time, I'm going to be typing some notes up as 4 I go. 5 with you while we're talking. 6 If you have any questions or if you don't understand a 7 question, please stop me and ask me to clarify it. At any point in time I may not have eye contact 8 MR. CUESTA: 9 MR. LAWRENCE: 10 MR. CUESTA: 11 MR. LAWRENCE: I apologize for that. Will do. And I'll do the same. Understood. Okay. And I don't know is a 12 perfectly acceptable answer. 13 start off with the easy ones first. 14 full name and your age, please. MR. CUESTA: 15 16 Let me Let me get your Great. And what is your title here at ExecuFlight? MR. CUESTA: 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 MR. CUESTA: 22 MR. LAWRENCE: Pilot. Okay. On what airplane? G3's. Great. You fly any other aircraft for ExecuFlight? MR. CUESTA: 24 25 All right. Andrew (phonetic) Alexander MR. LAWRENCE: 19 23 Okay? Cuesta, and I'm 28. 17 18 Okay? One. Yes, sir. I've flown the West I have a SIC in the West One that I've done. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 6 MR. LAWRENCE: 1 2 MR. CUESTA: 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 5 MR. CUESTA: 6 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. CUESTA: 9 MR. LAWRENCE: both. Are First Officer. Second command. First Officer. Okay. Yes, sir. Great. Were you a captain on Negative. Okay. So First Officer on Are you typed on those aircraft? MR. CUESTA: 11 12 Pilot. the West One? 8 10 Great. you a pilot in command, or second in command? 3 7 Great. SIC typed in the West One and PIC typed in the G3. MR. LAWRENCE: 13 Got it. I'm going to ask you 14 a little bit about that in a minute, but when did you 15 get hired by ExecuFlight? 16 MR. CUESTA: 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 MR. CUESTA: How long have you been In the Gulfstream, primarily, not probably three years now. 21 MR. LAWRENCE: 22 MR. CUESTA: 23 MR. LAWRENCE: 24 Okay. on the Gulfstream? 19 20 The tail end of 2010. Okay. Solid three years. Where do they train you guys on the Gulfstream? MR. CUESTA: 25 In the Simuflites. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 7 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. CUESTA: 3 MR. LAWRENCE: 4 MR. CUESTA: 5 MR. LAWRENCE: 6 MR. CUESTA: hours. Okay. Dallas Simuflites. Okay. Just real briefly, Total time, I have about 2,300 And most of that is turbine time. MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. CUESTA: 10 11 And Dallas. what kind of total time do you have, flight time? 7 8 Okay. Okay. And most of the turbine time is Gulfstream time. 12 MR. LAWRENCE: 13 MR. CUESTA: 14 not even 40 hours -- 40, 50 hours. 15 MR. LAWRENCE: 16 MR. CUESTA: 17 MR. LAWRENCE: Okay. And PIC time? PIC time, turbine PIC team, so All right, 50, okay. Yes. Okay. And just a brief, 18 condensed version of your background. 19 to ExecuFlight? What got you here? MR. CUESTA: 20 What led you up I was an instructor. I was, 21 had all my flight ratings. Here in south Florida, I 22 started my aviation at the Boca Raton Airport, and I 23 was a maintenance analyst, and as I started in giving 24 flight instruction at this airport, Executive Airport, 25 I began with ExecuFlight in the hangar, doing NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 8 1 administrative paperwork, helping the maintenance and 2 then, you know, right spot at the right time, the West 3 One slot was offered to me, and then I joined the team 4 as a pilot. MR. LAWRENCE: 5 How many hours did you have 6 when you started on the West One? 7 MR. CUESTA: 8 hours. MR. LAWRENCE: 9 10 So total time, when you got hired here, about 550 hours? 11 MR. CUESTA: 12 MR. LAWRENCE: 13 In the West One I had about 550 Yes, sir. Okay. And they got you your type rating or ExecuFlight provided you -MR. CUESTA: 14 The deal was I initially paid 15 for my training, and after my first two year contract I 16 was reimbursed. MR. LAWRENCE: 17 18 So after two years you get reimbursed from them? 19 MR. CUESTA: 20 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes, sir. Okay. All right, great. Did 21 you happen to know about the, did you know the pilots, 22 either one of the pilots? MR. CUESTA: 23 No, I didn't. I just, really, 24 Renato is the only person who I met briefly. 25 talk. Small talk. Hangar The other, the other pilot, I did NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 9 1 not know at all. MR. LAWRENCE: 2 3 Okay. How do you like flying for ExecuFlight here? 4 MR. CUESTA: I love it. Now, really, for me 5 this is what I've been exposed to. 6 I'm, I've been them with almost five years now, and I 7 wanted, when I joined, I wanted to be exposed to the 8 whole industry as a whole, I never thought of myself as 9 only wanting to be a pilot. I started off and I wanted to get a better knowledge of the 10 11 entire industry. So I felt privileged that I got to 12 start off in the hangar, and I've worked myself up like 13 that and saw, you know, the behind the scenes of what 14 it would be to run a repair station, even. 15 MR. LAWRENCE: 16 MR. CUESTA: Yes. And then also this office 17 stuff, seeing dispatch and then flying with them. So 18 I've learned, I've learned so much with my time here 19 and even flying with different people. 20 exposed to different type of pilots. I've been I will definitely, you know, continue my 21 22 career with them, and I think it's, for me, it's I'm 23 building a strong resume. 24 you know, I'm still in a good spot to -MR. LAWRENCE: 25 I'm still young and I feel, Good. Let me ask you some NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 10 1 specific questions that have to deal with the 2 Gulfstream. 3 things work on the Parker side, which I'm not going to 4 ask you about, as far as how trips are built and how 5 flight plans are done and everything. 6 But we have a little understanding of how I want to see if it's consistent, it is the same 7 thing on the Gulfstream. 8 on the Gulfstream? MR. CUESTA: 9 Who does the flight planning The Captain does, and if he 10 delegates it to the First Officer, I have, I have done 11 a flight plan. 12 MR. LAWRENCE: 13 MR. CUESTA: 14 But the Captain is primarily who does the flight plan. 15 MR. LAWRENCE: 16 MR. CUESTA: 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 Okay. Where is that entered? We use FltPlan.com. Okay. Great. Who does the weather planning? MR. CUESTA: 19 The weather planning, the 20 Captain as well, unless he delegates it to the pilot, 21 but the pilots, both pilots should look at the weather. MR. LAWRENCE: 22 Okay. Where is the Captain 23 if he's getting the weather, where does he get that 24 information from? MR. CUESTA: 25 Any of the national, any NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 11 1 national weather service approved. 2 FltPlan. 3 Like Intellicast. 4 everything on there. Again, we use Me personally, I've used aviation weather. And FltPlan.com. MR. LAWRENCE: 5 They do, they have So on FltPlan.com, because 6 I'm not real familiar with it, there's an, is there an 7 option on a page that says weather and you can click on 8 and you get -MR. CUESTA: 9 10 That's, absolutely. That's exactly how it is. 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 you get, or what's available to you? MR. CUESTA: 13 Okay. Okay. What weather do From that, you get the current 14 METARs, you get TAFs, you get NOTAMs, and there you can 15 put, you know, your alternate so you'll have all the 16 weather. And for me, what I do if I want like a site 17 18 image, I like Intellicast. 19 great, like, radar summaries and cell formations. MR. LAWRENCE: 20 21 Intellicast gives you You've done the flight planning before where you've entered it? 22 MR. CUESTA: 23 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes, sir. And then, okay. 24 where you enter an alternate airport? 25 you enter it? Is that Is that where NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 12 1 MR. CUESTA: 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. CUESTA: 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 6 MR. CUESTA: Yes. Yes. It's a little option with Okay. For you. So it's, in the flight plan process it's -MR. LAWRENCE: 8 9 Right. a drop down box, and it'll even suggest alternates -- 5 7 In tlan.com process? for you? Oh, it suggests alternates Really? MR. CUESTA: 10 They have a, yes. There's a 11 little box, a drop down box that if you don't know 12 something, you know, off the top of your head -MR. LAWRENCE: 13 14 Based on the destination or it's suggesting -- 15 MR. CUESTA: 16 MR. LAWRENCE: 17 MR. CUESTA: 18 MR. LAWRENCE: Absolutely. Oh, wow. Okay. Yes. So once you've entered that 19 flight plan in FltPlan.com, you hit send. 20 nothing else that you do. 21 and you get, you're now filed? MR. CUESTA: 22 There's It goes into the FAA system Yes. I hit file, file flight 23 plan, and then I wait about five minutes and I can call 24 Clearance and pick up the clearance. 25 relatively, I mean, here flying in the States, it's So it is NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 13 1 beautiful. It's easy. It's -- MR. LAWRENCE: 2 Good. Going back to the 3 weather, you said there was current METARs, TAFs, 4 NOTAMs, do, are you able to pick up PIREPs off that 5 FltPlan.com weather feature? MR. CUESTA: 6 Yes, you can. You can, if you 7 can, you can pick them up on there, if not there's 8 definitely aviation weather for sure has that. 9 There's plenty of sources out there. MR. LAWRENCE: 10 Okay. 11 you about weight and balance. 12 Gulfstream? MR. CUESTA: 13 AirNav. All NWS approved. Perfect. Let me ask How is that done on the We have a server, so the 14 Captain will work out the numbers using this software, 15 the Ultra Nav, and he'll get the current conditions for 16 the day, and it'll all be calculated so we'll get V 17 numbers, we'll get runway lengths, and then they will 18 email that. 19 particular email account, so then it'll be emailed to 20 the, to the aircraft. Every aircraft has a particular, it's own MR. LAWRENCE: 21 So why are you emailing it to 22 the aircraft that, you're already on the airplane, 23 right, when you're (inaudible). MR. CUESTA: 24 25 they print it off. So it's recorded. I mean, yes, They have a hard copy. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 14 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. CUESTA: Okay. And they put it on the flight 3 bag, but they, that's, I guess, just protocol 4 procedure. MR. LAWRENCE: 5 6 They send it in -They have a hard copy. Who's they? 7 MR. CUESTA: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. CUESTA: The pilots. Okay. Got it. The pilots will print, I mean, 10 they'll do the weight and balance, they can print it 11 out, have the hard copy. 12 is, once they have those numbers they'll email it to 13 the aircraft so it's just -- 14 MR. LAWRENCE: 15 MR. CUESTA: 16 MR. LAWRENCE: 17 You know, part of the process All right. Recorded. Yes. Anybody else get that email that you know of? 18 MR. CUESTA: 19 I'm sure the management personnel. 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 MR. CUESTA: The air, well, the aircrafts, Okay. So the chief pilot and the 22 director of, the chief inspector or the director of 23 maintenance should be able access those. MR. LAWRENCE: 24 25 the weight and balance. Okay. So they figured out How do you figure out the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 15 1 passenger weights and the baggage weights? MR. CUESTA: 2 We have a scale onboard, so for 3 passengers, what they say, we'll ask them, and then I 4 always round up, anything I do I round up. So if I have, you know, the luggage a scale, 5 6 so I try to do actual with that. I have this scale 7 and, some people, they always say, it was worst than 8 the West One. But, you know, they'll have some luggage 9 10 and, you know, barely fit it on there, so I have the 11 scale and we're measuring everything actual weight with 12 the luggage. 13 up. And then passengers, we add 10 and round 14 MR. LAWRENCE: 15 MR. CUESTA: 16 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. CUESTA: mean, it is. Is the weighing of the MR. LAWRENCE: 22 MR. CUESTA: 23 MR. LAWRENCE: rounding numbers? I Okay. It is required for every leg. So you can use ballpark That's approved? MR. CUESTA: 25 Every leg, it will, yes. Yes. 21 24 Yeah. passengers, is that required for every leg? 19 20 Someone tells me they look like they weigh 180, I put 200. 17 18 Okay. I shouldn't say -- For -- NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 16 MR. LAWRENCE: 1 Let me correct it. Let me rephrase that. Hang on a 2 sec. 3 and then round up, and that's an approved process? 4 They don't have to be weighed every time? MR. CUESTA: 5 You can use their weights, Not weighed exactly. You, 6 their weight and we add the additional weight to round 7 up. 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. CUESTA: Okay. Yes. And if it's the same trip, 10 that, pairing them, we have five pairings, then you 11 know the same five passengers, we round it up to the 12 same number. MR. LAWRENCE: 13 14 Baggage weight, can you do the same thing? MR. CUESTA: 15 Baggage weight, I mean, I 16 personally have the scale, because I'm typically the 17 one who's loading all the time, so I wait until all of 18 the luggage shows up and even before, with the line 19 guys, they'll have the scale there, and then it starts 20 going to the plane. So that's every leg I do. MR. LAWRENCE: 21 Okay. And it's interesting, 22 you mentioned that, I do this. 23 requirement? 24 every single time for every single flight? Is that a Should all pilots be weighing the baggage MR. CUESTA: 25 Okay? I mean, I don't think. I think NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 17 1 that might be a little much, but just, again, for me, 2 just to get to the closest actual need for the 3 passenger, for the luggage. 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 5 MR. CUESTA: 6 Okay. Not a requirement, I don't, I don't think. MR. LAWRENCE: Okay. All right. 8 the company to me, ExecuFlight. How do you 9 characterize the company? 7 MR. CUESTA: 10 Describe Well, I think, again, I mean, 11 for me, this is the only thing I've been exposed to, so 12 it was huge for me to be part of the team. 13 it was well-respected, here in south Florida. 14 the clients, they're some big names. I thought Some of I think Danny, the CEO, Danny Lewkowicz, 15 16 he's not only the type of owner that sits behind the 17 desk and does anything. 18 too, and in the experiences been within ExecuFlight, 19 that I've seen, that's something that I wanted to be 20 exposed to, and he came from the airlines. He gets, he's a line pilot A lot of people have their own backgrounds, 21 22 and I think all that knowledge and all their experience 23 is what made ExecuFlight now. 24 they have a strong growing fleet. MR. LAWRENCE: 25 And I think they're, I know your input would be NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 18 1 only from the Gulfstream pilots, but have you heard any 2 pilots expressing any concerns about the flying, the 3 scheduling, or the company? MR. CUESTA: 4 I mean, I've, everyone has 5 their personal agenda that they always want to, you 6 know, fit in. 7 nothing, and actually quite the contrary. And besides the normal bickering, no, 8 Any time I've heard someone say that they 9 want to have some time to themselves and ExecuFlight 10 and Danny and Rich Rivudo, they're very accommodating. 11 They've, I've, several times I've seen them, Rich or 12 Danny, pick up a trip and have, either go see the wife 13 and the kids for some days. MR. LAWRENCE: 14 15 He's done it for me. Do you have a director of safety at this airline? 16 MR. CUESTA: 17 MR. LAWRENCE: No. Okay. Do you have any type 18 of reporting system, say, you saw something that was 19 unsafe. 20 something. 21 you to report that to management or somebody that could 22 change that? Okay? From a ground ops or another pilot or Do you have some type of system that allows MR. CUESTA: 23 I would, I would speak directly 24 to the chief pilot and director of operations, and I 25 think that's what anyone would do since we are somewhat NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 19 1 a small business, they'll -- 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. CUESTA: Right. It's easier to do that. So 4 there is nothing written that we submit, but it's very 5 easy just to schedule something and have a face-to-face 6 meeting. MR. LAWRENCE: 7 8 All right. You ever done that before? MR. CUESTA: 9 No. No. Not, I mean, just 10 besides my personal agenda stuff, no. 11 I've never had anything to -MR. LAWRENCE: 12 Okay. I've never had, Let's see. Going to 13 come back to a couple more, but I want to see if Sean's 14 got anything. MR. ETCHER: 15 Just a few. So, promise I 16 won't take too long. Least I try not to. In the 17 airplane, I know it's referred that you guys have, I 18 believe, Jepp charts? Is that correct? 19 MR. CUESTA: That's correct. 20 MR. ETCHER: (Inaudible)? 21 MR. CUESTA: Yes. 22 MR. ETCHER: Are they in the aircraft, or do 23 you have to bring them with you? MR. CUESTA: 24 25 aircraft. How does that work? We have a full set in the Every aircraft should have Jeppesen -- they NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 20 1 do. They do. 2 personally did that, would do the revisions on every 3 aircraft, the Jepp charts. 4 Every aircraft has the Jepp charts. 5 flying G3s, I also did 91 stuff, so a lot of 91 stuff. 6 They had the iPads, but the 135 stuff always has Jepps 7 in the plane, so that's what we use. MR. ETCHER: 8 9 So that's what they have. I, when I started So you don't have electronic flight bags other than (inaudible)? MR. CUESTA: 10 11 When I started off in ExecuFlight, I that. No, not, the 135 stuff can't do The 91 stuff, they've, they do that, 91 stuff. 12 MR. ETCHER: Okay. 13 MR. CUESTA: But the 135 is all Jepp stuff, 14 and all of the aircrafts have the Jepps. MR. ETCHER: 15 So is that what you use is the 16 Jepps that are in the airplane, or do you print them 17 off before you go on a trip? MR. CUESTA: 18 How is it that you do it? The Captain of the trip will 19 get all the paperwork together and if there's any 20 changes, then we have all the charts onboard. MR. ETCHER: 21 22 Okay. Okay. And is it stored in a pretty easy spot to get to onboard? MR. CUESTA: 23 24 Super easy. 25 cockpit, straight down. In the, in the Gulfstream? Right in the middle of both seats in the And then some planes have a NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 21 1 closet that's still within reach in the cockpit, but 2 they're easily accessible. MR. ETCHER: 3 Okay. And you may have, they 4 may've asked earlier and I missed it, I apologize. 5 you know either of the two accident pilots? MR. CUESTA: 6 No, I did not. No. Just very 7 briefly, Renato, in the hangar, just small talk. 8 did not know them. MR. ETCHER: Okay. 11 MR. CUESTA: You're welcome. 12 MR. LAWRENCE: 13 MR. SHACKLEFORD: 14 MR. CUESTA: 9 10 15 But I That's all I've got. Thank you. Thank you. Donnie? No, other than say thanks. Well, thank you guys. I appreciate your time. MR. LAWRENCE: 16 17 Did Got one more. John, on the phone, do you have anything? MR. DRAGO: 18 David, I just have one question, 19 and it relates to Andrew having not met the other 20 pilots. 21 training locally at ExecuFlight, and if so, are you in 22 it with the other pilots that just fly the Hawkers? Do you any of the training, do you attend any MR. CUESTA: 23 Well, for me, I've done in- 24 house training every year where we'll do the HAZMAT and 25 we'll do the CRM. We do that with the DO and the chief NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 22 1 pilot, and I did not, I did not know the pilots and I 2 didn't see them this past year. I wasn't, I didn't take a class with them. 3 4 Sometimes the way they, we also do it is, because of 5 this schedule, it'll be one on one. 6 on one classes with both the DO and the chief pilot for 7 my in-house yearly training. 8 pilots at all. MR. DRAGO: 9 10 So I did not know the Okay, thank you. And one follow-up. 11 MR. CUESTA: 12 MR. DRAGO: 13 So I've done one Yes, sir. During any of your training, locally, has the FAA observed that training given? 14 MR. CUESTA: Negative. 15 MR. DRAGO: 16 MR. CUESTA: 17 MR. DRAGO: 18 MR. LAWRENCE: Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. That's all I have. Thanks. Thank, John. I've 19 just got a couple more, just a couple more follow-ups. 20 The, you mentioned flight-following. 21 Gulfstream have the same procedure where you're doing a 22 doors closed, door open texting? MR. CUESTA: 23 24 stuff, somewhat. 25 dispatcher. Does the Yes, 135, absolutely. The 91 It's, you know, talking to a Someone knows. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 23 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. CUESTA: Right. But the 135 is the same as what 3 the Hawker guys would've done. 4 open. MR. LAWRENCE: 5 Doors closed, doors Great. And I didn't ask you 6 this and I should have, how many Gulfstream pilots does 7 ExecuFlight have? MR. CUESTA: 8 9 I'm counting eight at the moment, unless I missed -- 10 MR. LAWRENCE: 11 MR. JAHR: 12 Yes, I'm not sure exactly how many because some of them are 91, some are 135s. MR. CUESTA: 13 14 see here. MR. LAWRENCE: 16 between Part 91 and 135? 17 MR. CUESTA: 18 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. CUESTA: Okay. And they're divided Yes. Okay. What does the Well, there's some, there's some clients that fly enough themselves. 22 MR. LAWRENCE: 23 MR. CUESTA: 24 I'm counting, now let's Gulfstream fly Part 91 for? 20 21 Yes. Yes, eight is what I'm counting. 15 19 About eight? Right. They're musicians and they do a lot of tours. MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Okay. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 24 MR. CUESTA: 1 2 So that plane is solely for their purposes. MR. LAWRENCE: 3 Okay. Okay. And you had 4 mentioned CRM training as one of the courses that you 5 do in-house and that the chief pilot and director of 6 operations teach that? 7 MR. CUESTA: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 Okay. And you get that annually? 10 MR. CUESTA: 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 MR. CUESTA: 13 Yes, sir. Annually. Okay. As the training. Base month and annually. MR. LAWRENCE: 14 Okay. Is there a manual or 15 something that you guys have on CRM, or is it just, you 16 show up to class and they start teaching that? MR. CUESTA: 17 No. We did op specs. We go 18 over our op specs and they have, they have, you know, 19 we watch videos. 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 MR. CUESTA: 22 thorough, a week. 23 school. 25 We've, we go through a I've done a week full of ground MR. LAWRENCE: 24 Okay. Okay. G3 is RNAV capable, right? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 25 1 MR. CUESTA: 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. CUESTA: 4 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes, sir. They VNAV capable as well? Yes. Vertical guidance? Okay. 5 Non-precision approaches, how are those performed in 6 the Gulfstream? MR. CUESTA: 7 8 How are they performed in the Gulfstream? MR. LAWRENCE: 9 Yes, well, yes, this is a 10 little general. When you shoot a non-precision 11 approach there, do you tie it with some type of 12 vertical guidance, even though it may not be on the 13 chart? MR. CUESTA: 14 Well, for non-precision, your 15 vertical guidance, I mean, you'll follow the chart, 16 look at the step zones -- 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 MR. CUESTA: Right. And what's critical is your 19 MDA, so you set your altimeter and you're referencing 20 your altimeter. 21 MR. LAWRENCE: 22 MR. CUESTA: 23 I don't, I don't know, I mean, as far as -MR. LAWRENCE: 24 25 Right. Do you use any other means? DO you do like a constant descent final approach NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 26 1 technique where you're doing a glide path all the way 2 down? 3 management system on the, on the Gulfstream? You build the glide path in the flight So you're building yourself with, like, a 4 5 pseudo glide slope? 6 down? Or do you just strictly do step MR. CUESTA: 7 They fly their approach. I 8 haven't seen anyone, no, get complicated with anything 9 in trying to set, like, a, for a non-precision, trying 10 to set their own glide path. 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 MR. CUESTA: 13 Okay. They just follow the chart, and that's what they do. 14 MR. LAWRENCE: 15 MR. CUESTA: 16 MR. LAWRENCE: 17 Right. Okay. Yes. Great. Anybody have, also have anything else for Andrew? 18 MR. SHACKLEFORD: 19 MR. LAWRENCE: No. Great. Anything you can 20 offer that you think of that maybe we, you want to 21 share with us? 22 trying to find out what we can. Considering we're safety investigators MR. CUESTA: 23 I mean, I didn't know the guys. 24 I didn't know. So there's not even, for me, I've been 25 exposed enough to flying with pilots where you can tell NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 27 1 there's weak pilots and, you know, strong pilots. 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. CUESTA: Right. And I would, you know, heaven 4 forbid, I would hate to have word go around with a 5 certain reputation about myself. 6 I didn't know the guys. 7 of, about anything really. 8 myself time to really think about -- 9 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. CUESTA: 10 And so I don't even, I haven't even heard anything And I haven't even given Yes. -- how close to home this 11 actually was. So it's, you know, it's very 12 unfortunate. 13 really would like to know. And I would like to know too. I mean, I Because the thing that gets to me is 14 15 there's, you know, everything is kind of like that 16 snowball effects. 17 what could've lead, and the fact that, you know, two 18 crew members, you know -- Something happened and we don't know 19 MR. LAWRENCE: 20 MR. CUESTA: 21 MR. LAWRENCE: 22 Missed whatever it was. You reminded me of one more question -- 23 MR. CUESTA: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Right. Okay. -- I had for you. the Gulfstream, and you're First Officer. Okay? How often do NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 On (202) 234-4433 28 1 you get to fly? MR. CUESTA: 2 3 leg, I get exposed to something. MR. LAWRENCE: 4 5 Okay. Why don't you get to fly with passengers? MR. CUESTA: 6 7 I get to, I mean, every empty Well, with passengers, it depends with who I'm with. 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. CUESTA: I have. Sure. And I do. And it really 10 depends the client, depends who the other person I'm 11 flying with is, depends definitely the conditions of 12 the day, the flight of the day. There's a lot of factors that I would think 13 14 goes in to the Captain's decision of whether or not 15 letting the other pilot fly. 16 definitely have been exposed to some hard and good 17 time. MR. LAWRENCE: 18 But I definitely, I Okay. So is there a 19 corporate policy or a company policy that requires that 20 the First Officer's only fly, or is there guidance that 21 says the Captain should only let the First Officers fly 22 empty legs? 23 MR. CUESTA: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 That -Or is this purely Captain decision? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 29 MR. CUESTA: 1 No. I think, I think the 2 guidance was throughout, like, empty legs. 3 that's, since I've been there, that's all I've really 4 heard. 5 MR. LAWRENCE: 6 MR. CUESTA: 7 MR. LAWRENCE: Because Right. Is empty legs. How many empty legs on a, 8 what percentage of flights are empty legs that you 9 operate? 10 MR. CUESTA: 11 pairing, at least one to two legs. 12 repos, those repos, so I've done pairing -MR. LAWRENCE: 13 14 pairing? 15 two? At least, at least out of the There's a lot of Going on, like, what day A two or three day pairing? MR. CUESTA: 16 Yes, exactly. Maybe one or Yes. Three 17 legs, one of those is, you know, from here going to 18 Opa-Locka, and then (phonetic) Los Nara to Opa-Locka. MR. LAWRENCE: 19 Okay. So the, on maybe a two 20 or three-day pairing, you may only operate or you may 21 only fly one or two of the legs, because that may be 22 the only ones that are empty? 23 MR. CUESTA: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Correct. How many would be not empty? How many would be with passengers for that same trip? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 30 MR. CUESTA: 1 2 legs. 3 Longer hauls. Yes I'd say, the other two I mean, in the Gulfstream, they're longer legs. So if we go out to California and go to one 4 5 airport, and maybe repo to somewhere where it's a 6 little more economical for the company. 7 know, three legs I get to do more. MR. LAWRENCE: 8 9 Okay. So it's, you But the Captains are primarily flying with passengers? 10 MR. CUESTA: 11 MR. LAWRENCE: Absolutely. Yes. Percentage-wise, how many, of 12 all your flights with ExecuFlight, how many, what 13 percentage do you think that you're actually flying? 14 MR. CUESTA: 15 MR. LAWRENCE: Low, probably 30 percent. So the Captains are basically 16 flying 70 percent of the flights? 17 MR. CUESTA: 18 MR. LAWRENCE: 19 Okay. Anything else you can think of again? 20 MR. CUESTA: 21 MR. LAWRENCE: 22 Sure. appreciate it. No, sir. Great. Well, I really Thank you very much. 23 MR. CUESTA: 24 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 25 Thank you. off the record at an undisclosed time.) NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 31 C E R T I F I C A T E MATTER: Execuflight Hawker Accident Akron, OH, November 10, 2015 Accident No. CEN16MA036 Interview of Andrew Cuesta DATE: December 2, 2015 * IFSFCZ DFSUJGZ UIBU UIF BUUBDIFE USBOTDSJQUJPO PG QBHF 1 to 31 inclusive are to the best of my QSPGFTTJPOBM ability a true, accurate, and complete record of the above referenced proceedings as contained on the provided audio recording GVSUIFS UIBU * BN OFJUIFS DPVOTFM GPS OPS SFMBUFE UP OPS FNQMPZFE CZ BOZ PG UIF QBSUJFT UP UIJT BDUJPO JO XIJDI UIJT QSPDFFEJOH IBT UBLFO QMBDF BOE GVSUIFS UIBU * BN OPU GJOBODJBMMZ OPS PUIFSXJTF JOUFSFTUFE JO UIF PVUDPNF PG UIF BDUJPO. ----------------------- NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD -----------------------------: IN RE: : : THE EXECUFLIGHT HAWKER : NTSB Accident No. ACCIDENT THAT OCCURRED IN : CEN16MA036 AKRON, OHIO ON NOVEMBER 10, : 2015 : : -----------------------------: INTERVIEW OF: JOSEPH CORELLO Thursday, December 3, 2015 Fort Lauderdale, Florida BEFORE DAVID LAWRENCE, Investigator, NTSB SEAN ETCHER, Investigator, NTSB NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Interviewee: CHRISTOPHER JAHR, ESQ. Wicker Smith O'Hara McCoy & Ford P.A. SunTrust Center 515 East Las Olas Boulevard, Suite 1400 Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 Tel.: (954) Fax: (954) On Behalf of ExecuFlight: DONNIE SHACKLEFORD On Behalf of the Federal Aviation Administration: JOHN DRAGO* *Present by teleconference NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 3 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1 (Time not disclosed) 2 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 3 All righty. Well, good 4 morning. My name is Sean, Captain Sean Escher, and I'm 5 an investigator for the National Transportation Safety 6 Board. 7 formed for the ExecuFlight Hawker accident that 8 occurred in Akron, Ohio. I'm a member of the Operations Group that was My role here is to learn what I can about 9 10 the accident so we can assist the investigation and 11 hopefully prevent this from reoccurring. 12 our process, we invite parties to participate in the 13 investigation to provide us technical expertise. As part of For this group, we have the NTSB, 14 15 ExecuFlight, Textron and the FAA. 16 room and ask everyone to introduce themselves and 17 provide their affiliation. MR. LAWRENCE: 18 19 MR. SHACKLEFORD: I'm the Donnie Shackleford. Pilot for, Captain on the Hawker for ExecuFlight. MR. JAHR: 22 23 I'm David Lawrence. Operations Group Chairman with the NTSB. 20 21 I'll go around the Christopher Jahr with the Wicker Smith Law Firm. 24 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 25 MR. DRAGO: And on the phone? This is John Drago. I'm with NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 4 1 the FAA. I'm the inspector out of Cleveland, Ohio. 2 And, my role here is to simply assist the NTSB 3 Operations Group in furthering the investigation. I will not be using information provided 4 5 here for any other reason than to support the, support 6 the NTSB further in the accident investigation. 7 apologize. 8 interviewee. I missed the name and the function of the MR. CORELLO: 9 And, I My name is Joseph Corello, 10 and, I'm a former pilot at ExecuFlight on the Hawker 11 and Gulfstream. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 12 Okay. Yes. You are also 13 welcome to have one representative of your choice. 14 And, is Chris who you wish to represent you? MR. CORELLO: 15 16 Yes. That's fine. Chris can represent me. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 17 Okay. As part of this 18 process, we're going to record the interview. And 19 we'll have a transcription done which will – 20 transcription will actually, eventually become part of 21 the factual report, however the audio will not be part 22 of the public docket. 23 this process? That Do you have any questions about 24 MR. CORELLO: No. 25 CAPTAIN ESCHER: Okay. Well, if you're NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 5 1 ready, we can get started then. 2 if you need any clarifications on any questions, just 3 ask or, if you don't know, that's perfectly fine to say 4 as well. 5 MR. CORELLO: 6 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 7 with the easy stuff. And, if there's any, Okay. All right. We'll start Can we get your full name? 8 MR. CORELLO: Joseph William Corello. 9 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 10 MR. CORELLO: 11 CAPTAIN ESCHER: And your age? I'm 31. Okay. And, can you give us 12 just, kind of, a general Cliff Notes version of your 13 history as a pilot, how you got here, all that? 14 you got to ExecuFlight and all that? MR. CORELLO: 15 Well, let's see. How I've been 16 flying since, commercially since 2007. And, I flew, 17 I was flight instructor, and then I flew aerial tours 18 for a company in Hawaii. I flew in Alaska for five years. 19 I flew 20 night freight out of Milwaukee, single pilot. And 21 then, and then I came, I went back to Alaska, and 22 then I came to ExecuFlight from Alaska. 23 I was flying scheduled operations in the 24 Bush, Alaska, there, Southeast Alaska specifically, 25 the Navajos under the Capstone Program. Then, I came NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 6 1 to ExecuFlight, and went into the Gulfstream and then 2 into the Hawker. 3 charter company here. And, now I fly G4's for another 4 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 5 MR. CORELLO: 6 CAPTAIN ESCHER: Okay. Windsor Jet. All righty. Your 7 certificates, can you tell us all the certificates 8 you have? MR. CORELLO: 9 ATP with HS125, G1159 type 10 rating and G4 type rating and CF5, CFII, MEI and 11 airplane -- commercial airplane single engine land, 12 airplane single engine sea. 13 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 14 MR. CORELLO: 15 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 16 MR. CORELLO: 17 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 18 MR. CORELLO: Any limitations? No. Okay. And, when were you I was hired on in November CAPTAIN ESCHER: – Okay. And, how were you Were you hired on as a pilot in command? MR. CORELLO: 23 24 First class. of 2013. 21 22 Yes. And, medical? hired on at ExecuFlight? 19 20 Okay. No. I was hired as a second in command on the Gulfstream III. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 25 Okay. And, just, you may NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 7 1 not know exactly, but any idea on your pilot time? MR. CORELLO: 2 I've got, I think, last I 3 calculated 5,200 total time, 4,200 PIC and, I think, 4 a little over 1,200 Jet. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 5 6 And how much of that was in the Hawker? MR. CORELLO: 7 In the Hawker, I'm not sure 8 exactly. I'd have to look. 9 hours, something like that. 10 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 11 MR. CORELLO: Maybe 300 hours, 400 And that was as SIC, PIC? A little bit of both. 12 started as an SIC in the Hawker. 13 G3. I I was an SIC in the Then, they sent me to Hawker School. I got a PIC type and I went into the right 14 15 seat of the Hawker. And then, I went into left seat 16 of the Hawker Part 91 legs, you know, Part 91 trips, 17 owner trips, stuff like that. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 18 Okay. And, do you 19 remember when you received your PIC, when you started 20 doing PIC time in the Hawker? MR. CORELLO: 21 22 December or January. Must have been January, I don't remember exactly. 23 CAPTAIN ESCHER: Of this year, 2015? 24 MR. CORELLO: 25 last year or January of this year. Yes. Either December of NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 8 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 1 2 Okay. All righty. What brought you to ExecuFlight to start with? MR. CORELLO: 3 Well, my wife got tired of 4 Alaska. So, she wanted to move back to Florida where 5 she's from, and ExecuFlight called me and offered me 6 a job. 7 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 8 MR. CORELLO: 9 CAPTAIN ESCHER: MR. CORELLO: 10 Okay. Why did you leave? Why did I leave ExecuFlight? Yes. I needed more time off. The 11 other company just gave me a better offer. 12 more money, ten days guaranteed off a month, hard 13 days off, G4 type rating. 15 I mean -- CAPTAIN ESCHER: 14 You know, Okay. When did you leave? MR. CORELLO: 16 When did I leave? 17 see, must have been July, end of July. 18 CAPTAIN ESCHER: Okay. Let's All righty. And, 19 when you were here at ExecuFlight, and you were 20 flying trips, who typically did the weather briefing 21 on the flights? MR. CORELLO: 22 I did the weather briefing 23 on my flights. What do you mean by the weather 24 briefing, like checking the weather? CAPTAIN ESCHER: 25 Yes. Who checked the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 9 1 weather? You? You -- 2 MR. CORELLO: Yes. 3 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 4 was the second in command? -- were the captain, or 5 MR. CORELLO: I check the weather 6 regardless of which seat I was in. 7 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 8 MR. CORELLO: 9 Okay. Personally. That was my method. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 10 And, when you were the 11 pilot in command, did your second in command do the 12 same thing? MR. CORELLO: 13 I encouraged all second in 14 commands to check the weather as well. 15 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 16 or -- I'm sorry. 17 that weather briefing? And, who flew the, Where did you, how did you obtain MR. CORELLO: 18 Okay. I mean, usually 19 aviationweathercenter.gov (sic). 20 international trip, we would get the weathers through 21 the official briefing office for that country. You know, various sources, but in the 22 23 United States, I always used AWC. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 24 25 If it was an Okay. Was that an approved source of weather briefing? Do you know? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 10 1 MR. CORELLO: 2 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 3 MR. CORELLO: 10 MR. CORELLO: flight plans, if it was delegated to me or I'd offer to file flight plans. CAPTAIN ESCHER: Okay. Did you ever delegate as a pilot in command? MR. CORELLO: 14 CAPTAIN ESCHER: weight and balance? Personally, no. Okay. How about the Who typically did that? MR. CORELLO: 16 Weight and balance was same 17 deal. 18 Most pilot in commands would do it. 19 would be delegated -- I did it, usually, as a pilot in command. 20 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 21 MR. CORELLO: 22 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 23 And when you were Sometimes I would file 13 15 Okay. second in command? 11 12 And, when, who I filed the flight plan for CAPTAIN ESCHER: 8 9 Okay. my flights when I was the pilot in command. 6 7 That's NOAA. filed the flight plan for your flights? 4 5 Yes. Sometimes it Okay. -- to me as an SIC. And did you ever delegate? 24 MR. CORELLO: The weight and balance? 25 CAPTAIN ESCHER: No. Okay. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 11 1 MR. CORELLO: Not that I can think of. 2 CAPTAIN ESCHER: Okay. Did you use actual 3 weights or, how did you obtain passenger weights or 4 bag weights? MR. CORELLO: 5 6 Stated weights plus ten and actual bag weights. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 7 Okay. All righty. When 8 you were flying as a pilot in command, did you, did 9 the first officer or the second in command, did he, 10 did you ever allow them to do any of the flying as 11 well? 12 MR. CORELLO: 13 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 14 On, under what conditions? MR. CORELLO: 15 16 Yes. I mean, it depends on the person and what their position was in the company. 17 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 18 MR. CORELLO: How so? Like, for instance, if it's 19 someone that they were considering upgrading then if 20 it was approved by the chain of command, then they 21 could fly, you know, we would alternate legs. 22 not, then -- 23 empty legs, then they would fly empty legs. 25 If it was approved for them to fly CAPTAIN ESCHER: 24 If Okay. Did you have to find out how it was approved? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 12 1 MR. CORELLO: 2 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 3 MR. CORELLO: CAPTAIN ESCHER: And, would they let you know or would you have to call them and ask? MR. CORELLO: 8 9 That would be approved through the chief pilot or DO. 6 7 Find out that they were approved? 4 5 Yes. I mean, usually they'd tell you, or if not, you could call them and ask, yes. 10 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 11 MR. CORELLO: 12 CAPTAIN ESCHER: Okay. Okay. Either way. Sorry, I'm just not sure 13 of the procedures here, so that's why I figure I 14 better ask while -- 15 MR. CORELLO: Yes. 16 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 17 MR. CORELLO: 18 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 19 MR. CORELLO: 20 CAPTAIN ESCHER: Yes. -- while we're -- No problem. -- (inaudible). No problem. All righty. When the 21 second in command was flying, when you, when they're 22 approved to fly or things like that, were there 23 passengers on board sometimes? Never? 24 MR. CORELLO: That would depend on the 25 person and the approval, you know. That would come NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 13 1 from either the chief pilot or DO whether or not they 2 could fly active legs or not. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 3 4 Okay. Did weather play any factor in allowing that decision to be made? 5 MR. CORELLO: Yes. 6 CAPTAIN ESCHER: How so, in your mind? 7 Not, I'm not asking you to estimate other people's 8 mind. How would it play in your mind? MR. CORELLO: 9 In my mind, personally, if I 10 was PIC on a flight and my name was on the paperwork 11 as captain, then I would. 12 then I would fly. If the weather was low, Just, you know -- CAPTAIN ESCHER: 13 Okay. So, you never were 14 -- so, did you ever allow them to fly an approach in 15 actual conditions, weather down to minimums or at 16 least start the approach then break out? MR. CORELLO: 17 I mean, it would depend. 18 Not, not to minimums in bad weather, you know. 19 it depend on the person, I mean, it would depend on 20 the person, I would say. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 21 Okay. On ILS, for 22 instance, on ILS would you, if it was above the 23 minimum, would you allow them to fly it? MR. CORELLO: 24 25 minimums, on ILS. Well, Yes, if it was above the Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 14 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 1 2 How about on a non-precision? MR. CORELLO: 3 4 Okay. It would really depend on the weather, I mean. 5 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 6 MR. CORELLO: 7 CAPTAIN ESCHER: Above minimums? Above minimums, yes. Okay. Did, when they, 8 when you flew approaches, did you hand fly them or 9 did you couple them? 10 MR. CORELLO: 11 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 12 I usually coupled them. Usually? What would make you not couple them? MR. CORELLO: 13 I mean, if it's, you know, 14 good weather and I'm flying an approach, then I 15 wouldn't. 16 ability to hand fly in good weather, I would hand fly 17 an approach. Sometimes, just to maintain my skills and 18 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 19 MR. CORELLO: 20 coupled, especially in bad weather. 22 But, usually, it was CAPTAIN ESCHER: 21 Okay. Okay. Was that a policy, or was that just a personal preference? MR. CORELLO: 23 I mean, I believe that -- 24 don't believe there's a policy that states you have 25 to have to hand fly an approach at the company. I NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 I 15 1 think it's recommended that you couple them. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 2 Okay. All right. How 3 about your, your second in command, did they, when 4 they did approaches for you, was it coupled, hand 5 flown? Was it at their discretion, your discretion? MR. CORELLO: 6 Well, I mean, I would say 7 it's a case-by-case basis. 8 recommended that it be coupled. 9 would use the automation to the, you know, to its 10 So, ordinarily we fullest abilities. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 11 12 problem. 13 flight director? Okay. All right. No If you hand flew, did you do it with the MR. CORELLO: 14 15 But, ordinarily it's Yes. I used the flight director. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 16 Okay. Great. Do you 17 remember if there was a stabilized approach criteria 18 in place when you were flying? 19 MR. CORELLO: 20 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 21 Yes. I believe so. Do you recall what that was? MR. CORELLO: 22 I mean, I think the, I think 23 they just used the, I think it's the stand IS 24 stabilized approached criteria from manufacturers 25 recommendation, the CA or the CA manuals. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 16 I mean, I don't remember exactly. 1 Like I 2 said, I mean, I work at another company now and I've 3 memorized their procedures and SOPs. 4 that it was fully configured by a thousand feet, the 5 final approach phase. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 6 Okay. But, I believe Okay. Did you, 7 can you recall any instance where a missed approach 8 had to be done because it was it was unstabilized or 9 go-around? MR. CORELLO: 10 11 CAPTAIN ESCHER: MR. CORELLO: Was that in visual or It was in visual conditions, but -CAPTAIN ESCHER: 16 17 I can think of instrument? 14 15 Yes. one instance that there was a go-around. 12 13 Yes. Okay. What was the, what was the go-around issued for? MR. CORELLO: 18 The, I let the second in 19 command fly, and it was an approach into Puerta Plata 20 or some place like that and it was a non-precision 21 approach and he was just too high to make the landing 22 in a stabilized configuration. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 23 24 So, we went around. Okay. All right. That's good. MR. CORELLO: 25 A non-event really. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 17 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 1 Okay. All righty. Let's 2 go to the, to when you were doing some training. 3 know you've got on your development in the G3, then 4 you moved to the Hawker. 5 training out in Dallas? 6 MR. CORELLO: 7 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 8 MR. CORELLO: 9 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 10 I Did you do all your Yes. How was -- It was Simuflite. How would you classify that training? MR. CORELLO: 11 I thought it was good 12 training, personally. All my training up to that 13 point had been company training, you know. When I flew freight and when I flew in 14 15 Alaska, it was all in-house company training. 16 thought the training in Dallas was real, real good 17 top notch training. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 18 And, I Did you, how would you, 19 how would you classify when you came out? 20 feel like you were ready to fly the airplane, still 21 had a lot to learn? MR. CORELLO: 22 Did you I mean, you always have a 23 lot to learn, but I felt totally competent and 24 confident in the airplane when I left training in 25 Dallas. Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 18 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 1 Okay. Can you recall if 2 they used ExecuFlight guidance in their training? 3 Did they use their own? 4 MR. CORELLO: Can you recall that? No. They used ExecuFlight's 5 training procedures, which were, you know, just the 6 approved company procedures. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 7 Okay. Did you do all 8 your training at ExecuFlight, or was there, or at 9 Dallas or was some of done here in-house? MR. CORELLO: 10 No. It was all, I mean, 11 other than the company indoc and recurrent, you know, 12 the company training, all of the airplane-specific 13 training was done in Dallas. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 14 Okay. And, during any of 15 that training, did you ever have an FAA inspector 16 come along to observe the training or anybody observe 17 it besides the instructor? MR. CORELLO: 18 19 Let's see. No, I don't believe so. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 20 Okay. How about when you 21 did your in-house recurrent training or your basic 22 indoc, did you have any, anybody from the FAA sit in 23 on it, listen in? 24 MR. CORELLO: Not that I recall. 25 MR. CORELLO: Did you ever meet at any of NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 19 1 the FAA personnel around here that were tied to 2 ExecuFlight? MR. CORELLO: 3 4 Yes. Picole -- 5 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 6 MR. CORELLO: 7 -- the POI of all of our 293 CAPTAIN ESCHER: Did you have any other interaction with them? MR. CORELLO: 10 11 Yes. orals were done with Jim Picole. 8 9 The (phonetic) Jim Other than the, than the 293? 12 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 13 MR. CORELLO: Yes. No. There was, I mean, 14 let's see, not that I can recall, no. 15 CAPTAIN ESCHER: Okay. All right. In 16 part of that training, in-house there, do you recall 17 receiving any CRM training? 18 MR. CORELLO: 19 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 20 classroom that does it? 21 was it done? MR. CORELLO: 22 Yes. We did CRM training. We you, was it a Was it a one-on-one? You know, it's, I can't 23 recall how they did the CRM training, but I do 24 remember doing CRM training. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 25 How Okay. And that's NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 20 1 perfectly acceptable. 2 can you kind of walk me through when you were issued 3 a trip. MR. CORELLO: Usually by a phone call and CAPTAIN ESCHER: MR. CORELLO: I Usually, a few days in advance we knew. 10 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 11 MR. CORELLO: 12 a popup. 13 maybe three hours. Okay. I mean, very rarely we'd get I think the shortest callout I ever had was So, nothing, you know -- 14 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 15 MR. CORELLO: 16 How long in advance? know it probably varied, but -- 8 9 Now, a trip sheet email. 6 7 All righty. How were you notified of the trip here? 4 5 Thank you. Okay. -- nothing real spur of the moment. 17 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 18 do that trip, was there -- 19 did you have to generate to begin the trip? 20 they provide you with? MR. CORELLO: 21 And, when you came into What kind of paperwork Well, let's see. What did I mean, 22 they gave us a trip sheet and a TSA check. And, if 23 it's an international trip, they gave us all of our 24 overflight permitting, you know, our customs 25 paperwork, everything that was required to accomplish NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 21 1 the trip. 2 If they didn't, then we'd call and say, 3 hey this paper's missing and they'd give it to us. 4 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 5 MR. CORELLO: Okay. We used Ultra Nav to do the 6 weight and balance performance calculations on the 7 computer. 8 that from anywhere, just get on a computer, dial into 9 the remote desktop. We had a remote desktop so we could do You could do all your Ultra Nav weight and 10 11 balance performance calculations. 12 weather. 13 flight plans for domestic. 14 know, a different story. 15 FltPlan, some places you couldn't. We could check our We'd usually use FltPlan.com to file our International was, you Some places you could your Really, that was a case-by-case deal 16 17 depending on where we were. 18 countries would have to go into the flight planning 19 office and manually flight, file flight plans, fill 20 out the ICAO forms, stuff like that. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 21 You know, certain Okay. How about, in 22 routes and approach charts and things like that, did, 23 were they in the airplane? MR. CORELLO: 24 25 Yes. No, the charts we used JeppView. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 22 1 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 2 MR. CORELLO: Okay. And the same route desktop 3 system allows us to dial-in to JeppView, and, we 4 would print what's called trip kits. So, you would just enter your trip, 5 6 departure, destination, alternate, second alternate 7 if you have a second alternate or departure alternate 8 if you had a departure alternate. And, then you'd select that, print it and 9 10 it would print all of the charts pertinent to your 11 flight. And, then you have them. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 12 Okay. What if you were 13 on a fairly long flight and you had an emergency and 14 you had to divert? 15 typically work that? 16 or? How would, how did you guys Did you have those charts handy MR. CORELLO: 17 We had, we had iPads, you 18 know, with the entire world database, JeppFD and, or 19 JeppView and -- I had two iPads actually, one with 20 ForeFlight and one with JeppView. Of course, those weren't approved for 135 21 22 due to the FAA not giving us approval for whatever 23 reason, so we weren't allowed to use those. So, we had to print pertinent charts for 24 25 the flight. If we had to divert due to an emergency, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 23 1 then it's an emergency situation and we could use the 2 iPads. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 3 Okay. Do you know if, I 4 mean, when you in second in command, did other pilots 5 do something similar to that? MR. CORELLO: 6 7 That was the standard procedure -- 8 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 9 MR. CORELLO: 10 Do you ever recall? Okay. -- as outlined by the DO. So, everyone should have been doing that. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 11 12 righty. 13 in route? Understood. Okay. All Did you ever have to divert while you were MR. CORELLO: 14 Did I ever have to divert? 15 As a PIC, I did not have to divert at any time. 16 there was a divert when I was an SIC on the 17 Gulfstream, we had to divert, but we diverted back to 18 our departure airport. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 19 Okay. Now If, if for some 20 reason, as a PIC, you didn't feel comfortable with a 21 flight, was there any procedures in place that, I 22 mean, you, as the pilot in command, I guess, are the 23 ultimate in charge of it. 24 procedures in place in making that decision, like a 25 risk assessment form? But is there any Did you get anybody involved NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 24 1 to help with that decision? MR. CORELLO: 2 You know, if we didn't feel 3 comfortable with a flight, then we just call and say 4 we didn't feel comfortable with it. You know, you can either call the chief 5 6 pilot or the DO or, you know, the sales guys if those 7 guys aren't available and you say, hey, that I'm not 8 comfortable with this flight for this reason, and 9 here's an alternative. Either we wait and we do it later or we do 10 11 maybe a different airport. 12 basis, but that was never an issue. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 13 14 I mean case-by-case Did you ever have to do that? 15 MR. CORELLO: Yes, I've done that. 16 CAPTAIN ESCHER: Yes. And, was there any, any 17 issues dealing with the chief pilot or director of 18 ops in your interaction? 19 MR. CORELLO: 20 didn't have any issues. In my experience, no. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 21 Okay. All righty. I Now, 22 we're almost done with some of my questions here, 23 just -- I know you knew both the accident pilots. And, first of all, our condolences because 24 25 they were, obviously if you knew them it's, it gets NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 25 1 personal then. 2 Professionally? But, how did you know them? Personally? MR. CORELLO: 3 Just professionally. I 4 mean, I worked with them. 5 bit. 6 a couple times with him. 7 didn't fly with Renato, but I flew with Oscar. 8 that's about the extent of my knowledge of them. And Renato, I knew, you know, been out to lunch Nice guy. I, you know, I CAPTAIN ESCHER: 9 10 I flew with Oscar a little So, When you flew with Oscar, was he the pilot in command or were you? MR. CORELLO: 11 When I flew with Oscar, I 12 was the pilot in command and he was new. 13 hired as a pilot in command but, like I said, we flew 14 some 91 trips together and we'd alternate legs. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 15 Okay. And, he was How would you 16 classify his piloting skills in the Hawker? 17 the regulations, knowing everything that a pilot in 18 command should know as well, how do you feel he did, 19 in your opinion? 20 MR. CORELLO: He did okay. 21 CAPTAIN ESCHER: Okay. Knowing He did okay. Did you ever have 22 to do any approaches -- did he ever have to do any 23 approaches with you, whether precision or non- 24 precision approaches in actual conditions or were 25 they all visual that you can recall? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 26 MR. CORELLO: 1 2 approaches in actual. 3 in actual together. 4 he flew some approaches. I know we flew some approaches I don't recall. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 5 6 I believe he flew some Okay. Yes, I believe Would you happen to remember non-precision or precision, or just? MR. CORELLO: 7 I mean, maybe, I mean, I'm 8 sure that he's flown both. 9 be honest with you. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 10 I don't recall exactly to Okay. And, that's fine. 11 That's perfectly fine. What you can recall, I know 12 it's, I guess it's, do remember when you flew with 13 him? It's probably been a little bit. MR. CORELLO: 14 Yes. I flew with him. It 15 was right before I left ExecuFlight. 16 was hired maybe a month or two prior to me leaving. 17 So, like I said, I didn't fly with him a whole bunch, 18 but I did fly with him a bit before I left. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 19 Okay. I believe he And, I know it's 20 been a while since you flew with him, but, can you 21 recall how he handled setting up for the approach, 22 flying the approach? 23 marker? 24 configuring? Was it configured outside the Did he wait until the marker to start If you can recall that. MR. CORELLO: 25 Let's see. I don't remember NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 27 1 anything outside of normal with him. 2 don't remember anything that, that, that really 3 triggered me into say, whoa, what's this guy doing, 4 you know. 5 standard. 7 Okay. All right. You say you didn't know him personally, just here. MR. CORELLO: 8 9 So everything, I believe, was pretty CAPTAIN ESCHER: 6 You know, I Not outside of work. I mean, you know, of course on the road we'd go out to 10 dinner and like lunch or whatever and fly together. 11 That was about it. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 12 Did he have any personal 13 issues that he'd talk to you about during those lunch 14 times or anything? MR. CORELLO: 15 No. No. I know that his 16 son was living in Colombia, so his son would come to 17 visit him now and again. 18 didn't talk about much of his personal life. But other than that, he CAPTAIN ESCHER: 19 Okay. All righty. 20 about Renato? 21 him, but you talked to him, you knew him 22 professionally here. I see, you said you didn't fly with 23 MR. CORELLO: 24 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 25 How He seemed like a nice guy. Didn't indicate any personal issues at home or any -NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 28 1 MR. CORELLO: 2 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 3 No. -- issues with the company that he voiced to you? 4 MR. CORELLO: No. 5 CAPTAIN ESCHER: Okay. All righty. I 6 think I am done with my list of questions. 7 around the room and let everybody else ask some 8 questions too in case they have some follow-up 9 questions or want some more clarification, if that's 10 okay. 11 MR. CORELLO: 12 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 13 We'll go Okay. Do you need a break or anything? 14 MR. CORELLO: No. 15 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 16 MR. LAWRENCE: I'm good. Okay. Hi, Joe. Just one, or a 17 couple of things that caught my attention I want to 18 make sure we're clear on. When you, when Sean had asked you about 19 20 the autopilot usage, I want to make kind of clear 21 that you flew two different type of airplanes, okay. 22 So, specific to the Hawker aircraft, was there a 23 policy to use the autopilot on the approaches? 24 MR. CORELLO: I don't, I don't recall if 25 there was a policy or not in place. But, I do know NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 29 1 that that's standard recommended procedure that they 2 teach you in training. 3 MR. LAWRENCE: 4 MR. CORELLO: 5 MR. LAWRENCE: 7 MR. CORELLO: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 10 In actual conditions, yes. Okay. Do you recall Oscar, using the autopilot or not using the autopilot? MR. CORELLO: If I remember correctly, he was a pretty heavy user of the autopilot, yes. 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 MR. CORELLO: 15 On all approaches? when he was flying with you, his preference as far as 11 12 To use the autopilot in actual conditions. 6 9 To what? Okay. He used the autopilot pretty consistently, in my experience. MR. LAWRENCE: 16 Right. Great. And then 17 you mentioned that, Sean had asked you if -- you had 18 never had any issues with having to call of on a trip 19 or cancel a leg or something because of weather or 20 whatever. 21 You said, in your experience. 22 heard any other pilots have any issues with calling 23 off trips or -MR. CORELLO: 24 25 Have you You know, not that I can think of any specific examples. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 30 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. CORELLO: Right. I mean, as long as you had a 3 valid reason, like I said, I can only speak for 4 myself. 5 MR. LAWRENCE: 6 MR. CORELLO: Right. But, I never had a problem. 7 If I had a valid reason for not doing a trip, I would 8 call and say, this is my reason and they would say, 9 look at the reason and say okay. 10 MR. LAWRENCE: 11 MR. CORELLO: 12 MR. LAWRENCE: Right. No problem. And, I understand that's 13 your experience but, you know, pilots talk and 14 everybody gets together and that type of thing. I was just curious if you had heard of 15 16 anybody else having issues or pushback from the 17 company because they didn't want to fly. MR. CORELLO: 18 19 Not that I can recall any specific -- 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 MR. CORELLO: 22 MR. LAWRENCE: Okay. -- examples. Okay. No. And then there was 23 something that caught my ear a little bit. Sean had 24 asked you, how was his piloting skills, and we're 25 talking about Oscar at this time, okay, because you NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 31 1 all flew together. 2 okay. How was -- and you said he was 3 MR. CORELLO: 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 5 I mean -Can you expand upon what okay means? MR. CORELLO: 6 You know, he was, he was, he 7 was an acceptable pilot. He was in, you know, he 8 kept his tolerances within a legal range and, you 9 know, he wasn't the greatest pilot I've ever flown 10 with and he wasn't the worst. 11 He was okay. He was, he was an average, solid -- 12 MR. LAWRENCE: 13 MR. CORELLO: 14 You know what I mean? Yes. -- pilot, in my experience with him. MR. LAWRENCE: 15 Okay. What were some of 16 his stronger skills, in your opinion, that you have 17 observed? MR. CORELLO: 18 19 I mean, his landings were pretty good. MR. LAWRENCE: 20 21 about communications. 22 to communicate? Let me ask Was he talkative? MR. CORELLO: 23 All right. Yes. Did he like I mean we had, you 24 know, as far as what do you mean? Like a 25 communications, like interpersonal -NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 32 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. CORELLO: 3 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. Well -- -- conversation? -- did he talk? 4 make the call-outs he was supposed to make? 5 verbal in the cockpit? 6 MR. CORELLO: 7 MR. LAWRENCE: 8 MR. CORELLO: 9 10 Did he Was he He was. Okay. He was. In my experience with him, he was, he made, you know, he made his standard call-outs and -- 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 MR. CORELLO: 13 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. -- he did all right. Okay. So, I asked you, 14 what was, what would you consider his strongest 15 skills, based on your experience. 16 consider maybe his least strongest or weakest skills 17 as a pilot? MR. CORELLO: 18 What would you Well, his radio 19 communications skills were probably his weakest suit. 20 I don't know if it was a language barrier or what, 21 but that was the one thing that kind of struck me. MR. LAWRENCE: 22 Oh. Okay. And, I was kind 23 of curious because Sean was asking you a little bit 24 about non-precision approaches. 25 your time with ExecuFlight, how many non-precision Can you estimate, in NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 33 1 approaches would you actually conduct, maybe 2 percentage wise, of all approaches? 3 MR. CORELLO: You know, that's a tough 4 question. I really have no idea. 5 lot of non-precision approaches because we would go 6 to small airports, some of which they didn't have 7 precision approaches, especially in South and Central 8 America. So percentage wise, I don't know, maybe 30 9 10 percent. I mean, that's a wild guess, but -MR. LAWRENCE: 11 12 I mean, we did a Thirty percent of the approaches were non-precision? MR. CORELLO: 13 Maybe, I don't know. I mean 14 there was, you know, we shot a lot of non-precision 15 approaches in my experience. 16 spent a lot of time in South America when I was with 17 ExecuFlight. 18 MR. LAWRENCE: 19 MR. CORELLO: But like I said, I Right. There was a lot of non- 20 precision approaches. And, we went to a lot of small 21 fields in the United States that, some of which 22 didn't have -MR. LAWRENCE: 23 Okay. 24 your math skills here too. 25 math in an interview, but -- I'm going to test They said there'd be no NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 34 1 MR. CORELLO: 2 MR. LAWRENCE: All right. Here it comes. Okay. 3 those non-precision approaches, you said about 30 4 percent would be non-precision -- 5 MR. CORELLO: 6 MR. LAWRENCE: Of Maybe 25, 30 percent. There you go, I, okay. So, 7 of, let's say 25 to 30 percent, how many of those 8 would you let the FO, or do you think the FO would be 9 shooting? MR. CORELLO: 10 You know, I don't know. 11 That would be, like I said, a case-by-case basis 12 depending on who the FO is and their abilities and -- 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 MR. CORELLO: Okay. You know. That's a, 15 percentage wise, that's a difficult number to 16 quantify. MR. LAWRENCE: 17 Would you, in your opinion, 18 characterize the number of landings and approaches 19 that FOs received at ExecuFlight less than what the 20 captains were conducting? 21 MR. CORELLO: 22 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. Okay. Would you 23 characterize that further as regular, significantly 24 less? MR. CORELLO: 25 No. I wouldn't say NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 35 1 significantly. MR. LAWRENCE: 2 3 MR. CORELLO: 5 MR. LAWRENCE: 6 see. 7 doing okay there? But, that it Yes. All right. Okay. Let's I just had a couple more things that -- 8 MR. CORELLO: 9 MR. LAWRENCE: 10 Hawker 700 and 800, huh? 11 MR. CORELLO: 12 MR. LAWRENCE: You Yes. You're okay? Flew the Yes. Okay. Differences in those airplanes? MR. CORELLO: 14 15 Okay. is a smaller number than what the captains are doing? 4 13 Okay. Yes. I did Differences training. MR. LAWRENCE: 16 Okay. Where there, in your 17 experience as a pilot, were there significant 18 differences between, transitioning between one and 19 the other when you flew on the line? MR. CORELLO: 20 21 differences. 22 differences. I mean, there were definitely 23 MR. LAWRENCE: 24 MR. CORELLO: 25 I wouldn't say significant All right. I mean, it's the same airplane, but, you know, different wing, different NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 36 1 layout, slightly different numbers. 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 layout? 4 MR. CORELLO: 5 MR. LAWRENCE: 6 MR. CORELLO: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. CORELLO: 11 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. CORELLO: 14 MR. LAWRENCE: MR. CORELLO: -- between the 700, the two Yes. Okay. And the 800 had a Yes. Okay. And, the Hawkers did The 700s did not, no. I don't believe so. MR. LAWRENCE: 18 19 Yes. not, correct? 16 17 So, some instruments digital screen for the ADI? 13 15 Okay. 700s that you flew as well? 10 12 Yes. were in different places -- 7 9 Layout, you mean cockpit Okay. And, the Differences training, where did you receive that? 20 MR. CORELLO: 21 MR. LAWRENCE: Dallas at Simuflite. Did you get any sim time or 22 any hands on time for the differences, or it all just 23 ground school? 24 MR. CORELLO: 25 MR. LAWRENCE: It was all ground school. Okay. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 37 MR. CORELLO: 1 2 ground school differences in the 800 and 800XP. MR. LAWRENCE: 3 4 It was a 700 simulator Okay. So, you go through a sim training program on the Hawker at CAE? 5 MR. CORELLO: 6 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. Differences, ground school. 7 So, the first time you'd actually fly the airplane, 8 or operate the airplane would be on the line -MR. CORELLO: 9 10 MR. LAWRENCE: 11 MR. CORELLO: 12 MR. LAWRENCE: The 800? -- for the 800? Yes. Okay. Differences in 13 capabilities for the autopilot between the two, the 14 700 and 800? MR. CORELLO: 15 16 different. The autopilots were slightly Yes. 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 MR. CORELLO: In what regards? The switches were different 19 and the, you know, the way they, the smoothness, I 20 guess you could say, of them was slightly different. 21 Just the way they worked was slightly different, but 22 they were the same, so very similar autopilots. 23 MR. LAWRENCE: 24 MR. CORELLO: 25 Okay. Just, you know, slightly different. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 38 MR. LAWRENCE: 1 Okay. Got to sit in on one 2 yesterday, so and played with that little rachet knob 3 for the vertical speed -- 4 MR. CORELLO: 5 MR. LAWRENCE: 6 -- I guess. And, I guess it's a, it's a spring to zero or spring back -- 7 MR. CORELLO: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 Yes. Yes. It's just a momentary hit and then it comes back to zero. How much, now 10 specific to the 700, like the accident aircraft, how 11 much do you get pitch change when you hit one of 12 those things? MR. CORELLO: 13 14 hold it and how far you move it. 15 MR. LAWRENCE: 16 MR. CORELLO: 17 don't know. 18 on that. MR. LAWRENCE: 20 MR. CORELLO: Maximum pitch change, I Okay. I know that if you hold it, it will pitch down pretty good. 22 MR. LAWRENCE: 23 MR. CORELLO: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Okay. I don't know what the maximum limit is 19 21 It depends on how long you Really? Yes. Is it technique or is, did you get any guidance that you guys just tap it, tap NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 39 1 it, tap it or do you see people hold it? MR. CORELLO: 2 3 It depends on what your going for, you know. 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 5 MR. CORELLO: Okay. You're going for a quick, 6 constant descent, then you can hold it. 7 would tap it. 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. CORELLO: MR. LAWRENCE: 10 11 Right. That was my technique. Okay. Other pilots use that same technique? 12 MR. CORELLO: 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 remember if he used that technique? 15 MR. CORELLO: 16 Most of them. Okay. Oscar? Yes. Do you You know, I don't recall. believe so. 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 MR. CORELLO: 19 I personally Okay. Because if you don't, it's kind of an aggressive pitch change -- 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 MR. CORELLO: 22 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. -- if you just go to max. So, that's not giving you 23 any kind of vertical speed, like each knob or each 24 bump is 100 vertical speed, it's just a pitch? MR. CORELLO: 25 Yes. You're just changing NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 I 40 1 the pitch and then once you, once you establish the 2 pitch you want in a vertical speed, then you can hit 3 vertical speed hold and it will hold that pitch. MR. LAWRENCE: 4 Because you're changing 5 pitch down and you got to wait to find out what 6 vertical speed you get -- 7 MR. CORELLO: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 Yes. -- because (inaudible) instantaneous right? 10 MR. CORELLO: 11 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. So, it takes a little 12 while? Or, how long does it take to get to the 13 vertical speed that you've selected? 14 MR. CORELLO: 15 MR. LAWRENCE: I mean -Say, let me give you a 16 vertical speed. 17 minute, how many bumps do you think, and how long 18 would it take to get to that? MR. CORELLO: 19 20 If I'm going to 1,500 feet per Maybe just a few bumps -- 21 MR. LAWRENCE: 22 MR. CORELLO: 23 I don't know. Okay. -- and then, just wait a second while it pitches down. 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 MR. CORELLO: All right. And, then adjust it. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 41 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. CORELLO: Okay. And you can catch it with 3 the button, the vertical speed button. 4 1,500, you hit the button and it'll hold. MR. LAWRENCE: 5 Oh. If you see The vertical speed. 6 So, if you hit vertical speed, say you pitch it way 7 down really quick and as it's going through vertical, 8 1,500, if you vertical speed, it should hold? MR. CORELLO: 9 MR. LAWRENCE: 10 Okay. It should hold it. It should hold whatever it 11 is? Is that how pilots flew non-precision 12 approaches, because you're doing step downs right? 13 MR. CORELLO: 14 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. Okay. Would they -- Were 15 you taught to do the wheel, wheel, wheel to vertical 16 speed and hit vertical speed when you got it, or did 17 you just do the wheel until you got whatever pitch? MR. CORELLO: 18 I mean, if you're doing a 19 short step down, then you would just hit the pitch 20 mode, let it go down and then it recapture the next 21 set altitude. 22 MR. LAWRENCE: 23 MR. CORELLO: 24 sustained descent rate. MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Yes. Okay. Because you're not looking a Okay. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 42 MR. CORELLO: 1 If you're looking for a 2 sustained descent rate, then you'd set it. 3 your just looking for to go down 500 feet or 4 something, then I wouldn't, I would just pitch it 5 down a little bit and then let it capture the next 6 set altitude. MR. LAWRENCE: 7 Okay. But, if In the Hawker, how 8 were you taught to do a step down? Were you taught 9 to do like 1,500 feet per minute or, you know, try 10 and guess how much vertical speed you need to get 11 down to the MDA, or -MR. CORELLO: 12 I mean, that's a case-by- 13 case basis, you know, for how much vertical speed you 14 need – 15 MR. LAWRENCE: 16 MR. CORELLO: 17 I got that. -- (inaudible) down your speed and the distance between your step down -- 18 MR. LAWRENCE: 19 MR. CORELLO: 20 MR. LAWRENCE: Got it. -- and how far you're going. But, were you taught to get 21 down, like were you given any kind of guidance like a 22 maximum vertical speed to try and get down to MDA or 23 was it just whatever you could do to get to MDA? MR. CORELLO: 24 25 I mean, I don't recall, you know, an exact set guidance on -NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 43 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. CORELLO: Yes. -- vertical speed. But, I 3 know that, you know, standard descent rates, there's 4 typically 2,000 feet a minute and -- or below. 5 know, like, so 1,500 or 1,000 if you're low, you 6 know, depending on what you're doing. MR. LAWRENCE: 7 Yes. You So, there wasn't 8 anything that said you couldn't go to 2,500 feet per 9 minute if you needed to. If you just want to fall 10 out of the sky from final approach fix down to MDA, 11 there was nothing that limited you on vertical speed, 12 how much vertical speed to get to MDA? 13 MR. CORELLO: 14 MR. LAWRENCE: 15 MR. CORELLO: 16 In the airplane, no. Right. There was nothing that would self-limit that. MR. LAWRENCE: 17 Okay. That's a airplane 18 limitation. Was there any guidance from the company 19 that said, don't do over this much vertical speed? MR. CORELLO: 20 I don't recall to be honest 21 with you from the company. I know that CAE, you 22 know, they would recommend -- I don't, I don't think 23 -- 24 know. I mean, personally, I never did that, so I don't MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Sure. I got that. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 44 1 (Simultaneous speaking). 2 MR. LAWRENCE: I'm trying to find out 3 where the guidance is because that's a good technique 4 that you're using. 5 is a guidance that's written someplace. 6 trained? 7 vertical speed down? Was it Do you recall if CA trained a certain MR. CORELLO: 8 9 But, I'm trying to find that this honestly don't recall. You know, I don't, I I know that, that if you were 10 to go into the simulator at CAE and bomb down at 11 5,000 feet a minute, then for sure they would say 12 something to you. 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 MR. CORELLO: Yes. You know, as far as that's 15 concerned, I never, I mean, that's kind of primary 16 pilot training that you don't do that. 17 never run into that situation where I encountered any 18 specific guidance on that. MR. LAWRENCE: 19 Okay. So, I've I think I have a, I 20 have one that I want, I might come back to later, but 21 -- I think that's all I have for right now. MR. SHACKLEFORD: 22 23 No, I'm fine. Donnie? It's normal. 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 CAPTAIN ESCHER: Okay. And, John? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 45 MR. DRAGO: 1 2 additional. I don't have anything Thank you. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 3 All righty. I've just 4 got a few lasts that kind of come to my attention as 5 he was talking. 6 brain. They kind of popped back into my So, I apologize. 7 MR. CORELLO: 8 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 9 Okay. No worries. At the beginning, you know, when we talked about your history, you know, we 10 left here, now you're working where you are. 11 mentioned that the days off. You get ten hard days there. 12 13 you, was there a lot of days off here? 14 and far between? MR. CORELLO: 15 16 Were they few ExecuFlight gave us the CAPTAIN ESCHER: Okay. Do you remember what that was? 19 MR. CORELLO: 20 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 21 MR. LAWRENCE: Thirteen in a quarter. If you needed -Thirteen days in a quarter 22 or thirteen out of a quarter days. 23 MR. CORELLO: 24 Was, did minimum required quarterly days off, hard days off. 17 18 You'd Thirteen days per a three- month period. MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Okay. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 46 1 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 2 MR. CORELLO: 3 Okay. Quarter of the year as per the 135 -- 4 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 5 MR. CORELLO: Yes. -- limitation. 6 needed more time off, was it hard to get? 7 you go about getting it or did you? 8 MR. CORELLO: 9 If you How would You know, if we needed more time off, you could request specific more time off 10 and sometimes you could get it. 11 small company, didn't have a lot of pilots, so. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 12 13 Okay. How would you go about requesting it? MR. CORELLO: 14 15 You know, it's a You'd have to put in a request to the DO -- 16 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 17 MR. CORELLO: Okay. -- in writing. 18 form. 19 then they might approve it or deny it. 20 CAPTAIN ESCHER: They had a You'd fill out a form, give it to them and Okay. Since, you said 21 that you guys were a small company, would you ever 22 consider the airline short staffed as a pilot? 23 you feel like they didn't have enough pilots to -MR. CORELLO: 24 25 Did You know, in my experience lately, every airline is short staffed nowadays, so. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 47 1 You know, that's been my experience. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 2 Okay. So, probably no 3 more, in your opinion, they're probably no more, no 4 less short staffed than anybody else or -MR. CORELLO: 5 In my experience, you know, 6 I believe that the pilot shortage is real. 7 there's definitely a limited supply. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 8 9 Okay. So, All righty. And, when David was talking about Oscar, and you said that 10 one of his weakness was radio communication, and you 11 said you weren't sure if it was a language barrier or 12 what it was. 13 any communication problems inside the cockpit 14 communicating with you? 15 MR. CORELLO: 16 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 17 Was it a communication -- No. No. Okay. Did he have Not that I recall. All righty. Did you ever think -- 18 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. 19 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 20 MR. LAWRENCE: -- of that question? I did. A couple of things. 21 Call-outs for non-precision approach in the Hawker, 22 do you recall what those call-outs would have been on 23 approach, for instance, we've intercepted the 24 localizer. I'm talking about a localized approach -MR. CORELLO: 25 Yes. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 48 MR. LAWRENCE: 1 -- with the step downs in 2 MDA. Walk me through what I should hear in a cockpit 3 in an ExecuFlight Hawker from about five miles from 4 the final approach, fixed flying. MR. CORELLO: 5 Okay. Well, it, bear with 6 me because it's been quite a while since I've flown a 7 Hawker. MR. LAWRENCE: 8 9 Indeed. Yes. And I appreciate -MR. CORELLO: 10 11 I agree. And I got the G4 in my, in my brain right now – 12 MR. LAWRENCE: 13 MR. CORELLO: Right. As I, from my recollection 14 here, you know, you would call localizer alive, 15 localizer captured and then, you know, you would call 16 your configuration changes, you know, as you're 17 calling for Flaps 1, Flaps 2, whatever, gear down. 18 You know, and you would, you had your altitude call- 19 outs, of course. 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 MR. CORELLO: Yes. And then, you know, on your 22 descent towards the final approach fix you've, you 23 had your 1,00 above, 500 above, 300 above, 200 above 24 and -MR. LAWRENCE: 25 What is that above? A NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 49 1 thousand above? 2 MR. CORELLO: 3 MR. LAWRENCE: Minimums. Okay. So, if I'm only 4 descending about 700 feet, I probably won't hear 5 that. MR. CORELLO: 6 7 It depends. If you, what altitude are you descending from? 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. CORELLO: MR. LAWRENCE: 10 Well, if I'm descending -You know. -- like from only 700 feet 11 of descent to the MDA from the final approach fix am 12 I going to hear it? MR. CORELLO: 13 14 a thousand above. 15 MR. LAWRENCE: 16 MR. CORELLO: 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 19 MR. CORELLO: MR. LAWRENCE: Got it. Three hundred above, 200 At least you should. Right. And then, and at minimums call, so I should hear that. MR. CORELLO: 23 24 You're going to get 500 above, 100 above and minimums. 21 22 Got it. above. 18 20 Then you're not going to get You should hear an at minimums call. MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Who's making that call? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 50 MR. CORELLO: 1 2 call. MR. LAWRENCE: 3 4 The pilot not flying should Got it. And then at minimums, what's the pilot flying doing? MR. CORELLO: 5 The pilot flying is flying. 6 In the at minimums, the pilot looking outside on non- 7 precision, let's say your capture altitude, the pilot 8 not flying should be looking for the runway. MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. CORELLO: 10 11 Right. The pilot flying should be monitoring his instruments and flying the airplane. MR. LAWRENCE: 12 If he's flying on 13 automation, does he hit altitude hold when he gets to 14 the MDA? MR. CORELLO: 15 16 to altitude hold. MR. LAWRENCE: 17 18 It should automatically go Okay. Because you hit the altitudes? 19 MR. CORELLO: 20 MR. LAWRENCE: You set the altitude. Got it. Yes. And then, I'm 21 curious about, you know, with your experience, you've 22 got good time, you've got multiple types, you've 23 flown jets in several companies now. Are you familiar with the term CDFA? 24 25 Constant descent final approach? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 51 1 MR. CORELLO: 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. CORELLO: Constant, yes. What is that? Constant descent final 4 approach where you, where you maintain a constant 5 descent to the VDP. 6 MR. LAWRENCE: 7 MR. CORELLO: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. CORELLO: MR. LAWRENCE: 10 All right. You're talking about? Yes. Or to the MDA? Yes. Okay. Do you operate like 11 that? Or did you operate like that at ExecuFlight? 12 Did you incorporate the concept of CDFA or non- 13 precision, or were they all dive and drive 14 approaches. MR. CORELLO: 15 You know, they weren't all 16 dive and drive. It depends on the approach really. 17 There's no V-Nav mode in the -- 18 MR. LAWRENCE: 19 MR. CORELLO: 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 MR. CORELLO: 22 -- Hawker. Yes. So, it's kind of difficult to use the automation in that regard. 23 MR. LAWRENCE: 24 MR. CORELLO: 25 Yes. Yes. Like the G4, we can set that up and it automatically does it. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 52 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. CORELLO: 3 The Hawker doesn't have that capability. 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 5 MR. CORELLO: 6 realisic method was to descend to your MDA -MR. LAWRENCE: 8 MR. CORELLO: runway -MR. LAWRENCE: 11 MR. CORELLO: MR. CORELLO: I believe CAE allowed you to do it either way. MR. LAWRENCE: Yes. MR. CORELLO: I don't recall to be honest with you. 21 MR. LAWRENCE: 22 CAPTAIN ESCHER: 23 They allowed it. What'd they teach? 19 20 Is that what CAE taught, the Hawker? 17 18 -- and fly to your missed MR. LAWRENCE: 15 16 Yes. approach point. 13 14 Yes. -- and then look for the 10 12 Okay. So, you know, a more 7 9 Yes. Okay. That's all I have. All right. John, did you come up with anything? 24 MR. DRAGO: No, Sean. 25 CAPTAIN ESCHER: Okay. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 53 1 MR. DRAGO: I'm good here. 2 CAPTAIN ESCHER: All right. Thanks. Two 3 last questions and then I think we're done. 4 apologize. 5 MR. CORELLO: 6 CAPTAIN ESCHER: So, I No worries. Feels like a never ending 7 interview, right? When you were doing a non- 8 precision approach in the Hawker, and you were 9 walking David through call-outs and what to expect, 10 when you would do the approach, outside the final 11 approach fix, would you go with flaps full or would 12 you only bring the flaps to 25? 13 been a while so, I apologize. MR. CORELLO: 14 15 CAPTAIN ESCHER: Outside the final approach fix. MR. CORELLO: By the final approach fix. 18 19 I believe full flaps was the method. 16 17 Yes. And, I know it's Yes. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 20 Okay. Okay. And, the 21 last question, you said it was a, it's a small 22 company, you know, everybody knows everybody. 23 have to put it in writing, you know, you need extra 24 days off for, or whatever. 25 in your opinion, the corporate culture here? You How would you classify, Was it, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 54 1 you know, everybody worked with everybody? 2 any animosity? 3 upper management? Was there Did you feel comfortable talking to MR. CORELLO: Personally, I felt 4 5 comfortable talking to management. I had no problem 6 with it. And, I can't recall any real animosity 7 between anyone. You know, but I can only speak for 8 myself. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 9 10 for. Okay. 11 have asked and we didn't? All we want you to speak Anything you can think of that we should 12 MR. CORELLO: Not that I can think of, no. 13 CAPTAIN ESCHER: Okay. Anything that you 14 think, from your experience, that might help us doing 15 this investigation to, kind of, have a better 16 understanding? MR. CORELLO: 17 18 I mean, I don't know. I don't know the details of the investigation. CAPTAIN ESCHER: 19 Okay. No problem. Any 20 final thoughts you have or anything along that lines? 21 Okay. 22 for taking your time on this. Well, we appreciate it. 23 MR. CORELLO: 24 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 25 Yes. And, thank you again No problem. off the record at an undisclosed time.) NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 55 C E R T I F I C A T E MATTER: Execuflight Hawker Accident November 10, 2015 NTSB Accident No. CEN16MA036 Interview of Joseph Corello DATE: 12-03-15 * IFSFCZ DFSUJGZ UIBU UIF BUUBDIFE USBOTDSJQUJPO PG QBHF 1 to 55 inclusive are to the best of my QSPGFTTJPOBM ability a true, accurate, and complete record of the above referenced proceedings as contained on the provided audio recording GVSUIFS UIBU * BN OFJUIFS DPVOTFM GPS OPS SFMBUFE UP OPS FNQMPZFE CZ BOZ PG UIF QBSUJFT UP UIJT BDUJPO JO XIJDI UIJT QSPDFFEJOH IBT UBLFO QMBDF BOE GVSUIFS UIBU * BN OPU GJOBODJBMMZ OPS PUIFSXJTF JOUFSFTUFE JO UIF PVUDPNF PG UIF BDUJPO. ----------------------- NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD -----------------------------: IN RE: : : THE EXECUFLIGHT HAWKER : NTSB Accident No. ACCIDENT THAT OCCURRED IN : CEN16MA036 AKRON, OHIO ON NOVEMBER 10, : 2015 : : -----------------------------: INTERVIEW OF: Nick Brown Thursday, December 3, 2015 Banyon Aviation Ft. Lauderdale Executive Airport Ft. Lauderdale, Florida BEFORE DAVID LAWRENCE, Investigator, NTSB SEAN ETCHER, Investigator, NTSB NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Interviewee: CHRISTOPHER JAHR, ESQ. Wicker Smith O'Hara McCoy & Ford P.A. SunTrust Center 515 East Las Olas Boulevard, Suite 1400 Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 Tel.: (954) Fax: (954) On Behalf of ExecuFlight: DONNIE SHACKLEFORD On Behalf of the Federal Aviation Administration: JOHN DRAGO* *Present by teleconference NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 3 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 2 Good afternoon. My 3 name is Captain Sean Etcher and I'm an Investigator 4 with the National Transportation Safety Board. 5 Member of the Operations Group for the Execuflight 6 Hawker accident that occurred in Akron, Ohio. I'm a My role here it to learn what I can about 7 8 the accident so we can assist the investigation and 9 hopefully prevent this from reoccurring. As part of 10 our process we invite parties to participate in the 11 investigation to provide us technical expertise. For this group we have the NTSB, 12 13 Execuflight, Textron, and the FAA. 14 room and ask everyone to introduce themselves and 15 provide their affiliation. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 16 17 Lawrence. 18 NTSB. 20 MR. JAHR: Chris Jahr, from the Wicker Smith law firm. MR. BROWN: 23 24 Donnie Shackleford, captain on the Hawker 700 and 800 for Execuflight. 21 22 Name's David I'm the Operations Group Chairman with the MR. SHACKLEFORD: 19 I'll go around the And Nick Brown, Charter Sales Execuflight. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 25 And on the phone? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 4 MR. DRAGO: 1 Good afternoon. John Drago, I'm 2 an Inspector with the FAA located in Cleveland, Ohio. 3 And my role here is simply to assist the NTSB 4 Operations Group in furthering the investigation. 5 will not be using any of the information provided here 6 today for any other reason than to support the NTSB in 7 this investigation. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 8 9 10 I Nick, you are welcome to have one representative of your choice to attend. Do you wish Chris to be that representative? 11 MR. BROWN: Yes, that's fine. 12 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: As part of the 13 process, we'll record the interview. We'll have a 14 transcription made which will eventually become part of 15 the factual report. 16 public docket. 17 process? The audio will not be part of the Do you have any questions about the 18 MR. BROWN: No. 19 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 20 off with some nice easy questions for you. 21 State your full name. 22 MR. BROWN: 23 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 24 MR. BROWN: 25 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: All right, we'll start Nicholas Ryan (phonetic) Brown. And your age? 28. What's your current NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 5 1 title? 2 MR. BROWN: 3 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 4 MR. BROWN: 5 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 6 have you been in that position? MR. BROWN: 7 8 With? Execuflight. Okay. And how long Four years, five years in August of next year. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 9 10 Charter Sales. And what does that job description or duties require of you? MR. BROWN: 11 My job description is sale to 12 brokers and users, charter sales with our fleet. 13 Sometimes we broker out aircraft but mainly it's in- 14 house sales to our brokers and clients. 15 schedule them, and send trip sheets. 16 dispatch duties. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 17 18 MR. BROWN: Okay. And how many It's me and Sal, so two. And then Danny, three. 21 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 22 MR. BROWN: 23 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 24 And non-technical employees are there within that division or that group? 19 20 And then we Danny, the owner, CEO? The owner, yes. Okay. And what did you do prior to your employment here at Execuflight? MR. BROWN: 25 I worked at Presidential NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 6 1 Aviation, Universal Jet, a charter. 2 worked with Florida Jet, service, PR (phonetic) to FXE. 3 Mainly, I've been in the industry for about six years. 4 You know, four with Execuflight. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 5 6 Okay. Are you a pilot? 7 MR. BROWN: 8 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 9 And before that I No. Are you a licensed FAA dispatcher? 10 MR. BROWN: No, I'm not. 11 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: As part of your duties 12 or extra duties, have you ever filed any flight plans 13 for pilots with Execuflight? MR. BROWN: 14 I haven't filed, but I did, I 15 started flight plans, where you would pick a route, 16 time, and the aircrafts. 17 file them. 18 do not file flight plans though. And then the pilots would That's only when they ask me to though. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 19 20 is that the pilot or Execuflight? 21 do that? MR. BROWN: 22 I And when they ask you, Or who asks you to That would be Danny or the 23 pilots. So I have assisted with the preliminary work 24 for a flight plan, but I do not file the flight plans. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 25 Okay. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 7 MR. BROWN: 1 They do the end result. They 2 look it over, the flight plan, and then they file them 3 themselves. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 4 5 Do you ever obtain any weather or research any weather for the pilots? MR. BROWN: 6 We do look over the weather. 7 That's like there's a hurricane coming ahead, or a 8 severe thunderstorm. 9 pilots saying you know. Yes, we look at it, advise the We have a trip that we're 10 quoting and schedule, and we'll bring it up to them. 11 But they have the final call on the flight for the 12 weather. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 13 All right. Do you 14 ever gather any weight information on the passengers, 15 or anything along that -MR. BROWN: 16 We have when the broker, you 17 know asks. 18 pounds with luggage you know. 19 the only time we ever put together information. 20 the broker gives it to us. 21 Well, hey, give me the weight and dimensions of the 22 luggage and stuff. 23 would make that call. Can this fit? That's When Hey, can we do this flight? And then we ask the captain who INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 24 25 Hey, I have you know seven people, 250/300 So the broker provides the weight to you? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 8 MR. BROWN: 1 There has been flights in the 2 past, where the broker, has hey, I have this many 3 people. 4 luggage they're bringing on. 5 you know we, if we don't know we ask the command, the 6 captain. 7 the numbers with the weights that are provided to us. 8 Yes. These are their weights, and this is how much INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: MR. BROWN: I do not do a weight, pilots do INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: MR. BROWN: 16 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: Yes. MR. BROWN: Which ones, what I've ridden on the Hawker 800, 700, and G3. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 20 21 Have you types? 18 19 All righty. ever ridden on any of the Execuflight aircrafts? 15 17 And do you ever do a them. 13 14 He runs weight and balance for the pilots? 11 12 And then Captain, be like, yes we can do it. 9 10 Will this fit? Did you ever ride on the accident flight -- 22 MR. BROWN: No. 23 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 24 MR. BROWN: 25 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: Aircraft? No, I did not. Okay. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 9 1 MR. BROWN: 2 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 3 MR. BROWN: Yes, I knew Oscar and Renato INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: Just professionally, not personally? MR. BROWN: 8 9 Did you know from Execuflight. 6 7 Okay. either of the accident pilots? 4 5 The other 7, (inaudible). Just professionally, not personally. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 10 All righty. And when 11 they were here and you knew them professionally, how 12 was your interaction with them? 13 -- in your opinion were they easy -MR. BROWN: 14 Great to work with or In my opinion, they were very 15 easy to work with. 16 got along very well. 17 would say they were very well to work with, you know, 18 for a crew. Never complaining. They So overall, I You know, they were happy. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 19 20 Happy to fly, want to fly. Okay. Did you book or crate the accident trip? MR. BROWN: 21 I did not. Sal, originally 22 quoted it to the broker. They made some changes that I 23 helped with and then we sent the trip sheet. 24 out of the office the day that they made some changes, 25 just minor changes with times and stuff. Sal was But they NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 10 1 always did have Akron Fulton Airport on their 2 itinerary. They made a little swaps on the routing of 3 4 the full trip, which I helped with. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 5 6 What kind of swaps did they make, if you can recall? MR. BROWN: 7 They, like the first airport 8 that they requested to go to was Fort Lauderdale to 9 Akron. They changed that to St. Paul. So you know 10 they swapped a couple legs, but it was always Akron 11 Fulton Airport that they wanted to use. 12 was closer to their intended destination. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 13 Because that All righty. 14 Typically, how is it that a trip is created when you 15 know, from your viewpoint? How is it you create a trip if somebody 16 17 calls? INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 18 We quote it out. Someone calls with a 19 request. We get feedback. If they 20 want to book, we look at our availability with crew, 21 and our schedule. 22 come back. 23 approves it, we set it up. 24 details from the broker, passengers, times, FBOs. We wait for the signed contract to We get it approved by Danny. After he And then we get all the We're on the no-fly list, and before it's 25 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 11 1 released, the chief pilot looks at it. 2 release the flight. 3 know, we have the passenger's departure times, all the 4 details and then crew. 6 That's after we schedule, you INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 5 MR. BROWN: 8 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: The chief pilot has, and -We'll pause for just a moment, hold on. (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 10 11 I'm sorry, I have to take this call. 7 9 And will momentarily went off the record). INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 12 All righty. 13 talking about how you create a trip. 14 to the chief pilot to get some feedback. 15 of continue from there? MR. BROWN: 16 We were And you send it Can you kind Well, he releases the flight 17 after we book it. We schedule it. 18 final and this is, you know, this is a go, or no we're 19 not doing this. 20 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 21 MR. BROWN: He releases the Okay. Danny, or the chief pilot. 22 that's how we book a flight and release it. 23 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 24 MR. BROWN: 25 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: And Now -- For 135. Understood, sorry. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 12 1 Thank you. 2 you get the call to prepare the numbers or whatever. 3 And then you get some feedback -- 4 MR. BROWN: 5 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 6 feedback. Now at the beginning of that you said that We get a call or an email. What do you mean by you get feedback? 7 MR. BROWN: 8 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 9 get the call from the broker -- 10 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: Feedback? 11 the call, we get feedback. 12 pricing on this? INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 14 MR. BROWN: Oh no. Yes, we get Okay. That's what I meant by feedback from the -INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 16 17 At the beginning, you Hey, how are we looking on 13 15 And you get some Okay. Yes, sorry. I just wanted a little -- 18 MR. BROWN: -- from the quotation. 19 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 20 clarification, sorry about that. 21 MR. BROWN: 22 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 23 contacts you? 24 How's that work? No problem. So, who typically Is it the broker? MR. BROWN: 25 I just wanted a little Is it a direct sale? Eighty percent is brokers. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 13 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 1 2 Okay. And the other 20 percent? 3 MR. BROWN: Would be end users. 4 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: Okay. How is it you 5 can assess which airplane could be used for a trip that 6 you're building? MR. BROWN: 7 8 Going on the passenger count. We have mid and heavy. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 9 MR. BROWN: 10 Okay. I mean if it's over 8 11 passengers, we can't book the Hawker or Westwind. Has 12 to be a G3. 13 it'll be flying, the duration of the flight. 14 can't fly seven hours in the Hawker. 15 is, its location, elevation, duration of flight, and 16 passenger count. 17 what are we -- because we get a lot of calls from 18 brokers say, hey you know, can you fly here to San 19 Francisco, non-stop on a Hawker? It depends on the length, you know, where I mean we So that's what it That's how we decide, hey you know, 20 No we can't. I don't have Supermid. 21 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 22 MR. BROWN: Okay. We got a heavy. And that's, 23 brokers don't know that. You know they think private 24 jets could fly, you know across the country without a 25 fuel stop. No, that's not how it works. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 14 1 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 2 MR. BROWN: 3 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: Okay. So yes, that's -Understood. Is there 4 a certain length of runway you look at, where the 5 airports they're planning on going? 6 lengths you look for? 7 MR. BROWN: 8 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 9 MR. BROWN: Yes. 11 policy? 12 -- Is that a Execuflight Or is that just something that you all use as 13 MR. BROWN: 14 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 15 MR. BROWN: 16 And what is that? Over 5,000 at sea level. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 10 Is there certain It's Part 135 regulations. Okay. Minimum 5,000 feet at sea level. We don't go under that. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 17 Okay. Once the trip 18 sheet is created, and it's approved up through the 19 levels it goes through, do you do anything to get the 20 flight scheduled? 21 determine that? The crews, the airplanes, how do you MR. BROWN: 22 We assist in scheduling crews, 23 but like I said, the chief pilot has the final decision 24 on who he wants to fly that, you know flight. 25 with fuel pricing, FBO coordination, and flight We help NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 15 1 following with the brokers. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 2 3 Flight following -MR. BROWN: 4 5 open, door's closed. 6 FlightAware. Flight following, like door's We track the flight on Flight following with the broker. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 7 8 I'm sorry. So you do it for the broker, not for Execuflight? MR. BROWN: 9 We do it for us, we want to know 10 where our plane is too, with it you know. After they 11 land, hey, we let the -- plane landed, flight went 12 well. 13 service, you know to the broker. We get feedback from mainly the crew. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 14 Customer And how do you know 15 when the doors are, I think the door's closed, door's 16 open? MR. BROWN: 17 Yes, door's closed would be 18 literally just what it says. 19 taxiing out right before take-off. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 20 21 Door's closed, they're communicate that with you? 22 MR. BROWN: 23 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 24 How do they Text message. And the same with door open? MR. BROWN: 25 And door open, as soon as they NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 16 1 land, taxi in, door opens up at the FBO, and we would 2 get a door's open. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 3 4 that they typically put on there? 5 MR. BROWN: 6 closed, door is open. Nope. Just that, door is That's it. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 7 Is there anything else Okay. Once a trip has 8 been scheduled and approved and the airplane's 9 allocated. Does anybody ever come up and say no, this 10 trip can't be done for some reason that you're aware 11 of? MR. BROWN: 12 Oh, yes. We've had requests, 13 we've booked and you know Danny comes in, the chief 14 pilot, hey, we can't fly non-stop out of Aspen to Fort 15 Lauderdale in the summer due to the elevation. 16 know, we make changes, and yes. 17 question, yes. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 18 19 So you So to answer your That's Danny or chief pilot or somebody? 20 MR. BROWN: Chief pilot or Danny. 21 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: Do your pilots ever 22 come to you and say the same thing, or do they 23 typically -- 24 MR. BROWN: Yes, they do. 25 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: All right. Do you NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 17 1 ever, I know you said the chief pilot schedules the 2 pilots for the trips, do you ever deal with pilot's 3 days off. 4 off? Or looking at that or schedule their days MR. BROWN: 5 They'll tell us, hey, you know 6 my son's birthday is coming up. 7 day off. 8 final decision. 9 we all know. I'd like to have this We mention to the chief pilot, but it's his And then we put it on the calendar, so INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 10 As part of your 11 duties, do you book -- I think you said earlier you 12 might book hotels for pilots? 13 MR. BROWN: 14 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 15 We book hotels, yes. their flight time or duty time at all? 16 MR. BROWN: 17 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 18 Do you keep track of Yes. How so? How do you keep track of it? MR. BROWN: 19 We know that it's ten hours in 20 24 flight time. 21 We do know about that, and we do keep track. 22 quote flights and schedule flights over ten hours in a 23 day, or 14 in a duty. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 24 25 And then duty time would be 14 hours. We don't So you typically will schedule the flight accordingly -NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 18 MR. BROWN: 1 Right, and if we're close, 2 we'll, hey, let's look at the times here. 3 doable? Is this And then the captain you know will tell us. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 4 Okay. For the 5 accident trip, do you recall any concerns about it that 6 was mentioned around? 7 MR. BROWN: No, I mean I was working that 8 day and you know, I was flight following. 9 FBO, because I hadn't heard from them, and I get a 10 door's open. 11 there. 12 them and they gave me the news. I called the Called the FBO, and they said it wasn't They told me to call the approach. I called 13 As soon as I found that out, I called Danny. 14 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: Okay. Does 15 Execuflight have a policy in place for events like 16 that, where there is no door's open text received? Do you guys have a written policy at 17 18 Execuflight? MR. BROWN: 19 That I don't know. 20 written policy. 21 call your superior, the President, CEO. 22 I called as soon as I found out. But I, you know from instincts, you INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 23 We have a Okay. And that's why Is there 24 typically a time that you wait to get a door's open 25 text before you start that process? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 19 MR. BROWN: 1 I mean you know, after we in 2 FlightAware you know we see them land. We give them 3 like ten, fifteen minutes, you know taxi time to come 4 in. 5 normally as soon as they touch down, they taxi, and we 6 will get the message, door's open. You know help with the passenger's luggage. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 7 But You've answered a lot 8 of my questions. 9 room and let the other gentlemen ask questions if they 10 Right now, I'm going to go around the have any. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: Okay, ever had 11 12 difficulties booking a trip or scheduling a trip due to 13 lack of flight crews? 14 MR. BROWN: 15 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 16 No. Okay. You said you also helped with the booking of hotels? 17 MR. BROWN: Yes. 18 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: What is the priority 19 or what is the process of determining which hotel 20 you're going to put the crew up in? MR. BROWN: We look at a hotel nearby. You 22 know with a restaurant, because they want to eat. And 23 you know, it's usually a Marriott, Hilton, something 24 nearby, you know. 25 departure time changes, they're within ten minutes of 21 Just in case we get a callout, hey, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 20 1 the airport. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 2 You said the pilots 3 will occasionally call you to ask for days off, and 4 obviously the chief pilot has the final say and 5 authority -MR. BROWN: 6 Well that's because we, you know 7 we make notes on the calendar, and we schedule flights. 8 We put people's doctor appointments on the calendar but 9 like I said, it's the captain's final, or the chief 10 pilot's final decision -- 11 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 12 MR. BROWN: 13 -- to schedule, you know, hard days off. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 14 15 Right. Specific to Oscar or Renato. 16 MR. BROWN: Yes. 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: During the lead up 18 to this actual trip, say let's go back two weeks prior 19 to the accident. 20 either one of those individuals asking for specific 21 days off? Had you received any phone calls from MR. BROWN: 22 I didn't. Sal did. Renato 23 wanted a couple days off and we gave it to him. 24 approved. 25 day after they were supposed to come back, that It was And that was two days after, you know the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 21 1 Tuesday. That next two days he was off. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 2 3 So the day after the accident -- 4 (Simultaneous speaking) 5 MR. BROWN: 6 Okay. The following day, we had hard days off for him. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 7 Let me finish, so 8 the day after the accident would have been the two days 9 that Renato was requesting off? 10 MR. BROWN: 11 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 12 Got it. Did he say why? MR. BROWN: 13 14 Right. I believe he had family coming in town. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 15 Okay. Any other 16 time within -- with the time, and I know Oscar and 17 Renato hadn't been with the company for that long. 18 during any of your dealings since they came on about 19 June to May timeframe, for both pilots, had you 20 received any other indications of requests for time off 21 for -- 22 MR. BROWN: 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: But Not from Oscar or Renato, no. Okay. How do you, 24 do you do any preplanning to develop the trip package? 25 Do you wait for the broker to determine or advise you NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 22 1 of passenger weights? 2 you wait -- Or do you ask for that, or do 3 MR. BROWN: We do not ask for the weights. 4 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 5 MR. BROWN: Okay. The only time we get the weights 6 is if, you know, it's they have you know eight 7 passengers. 8 the average of 150, 180 you know. 9 this mission? And they have seven that are you know over Are we able to fly And we'll, I'll get the weights then pass it 10 11 along to the captain of the flight, so he can run the 12 numbers. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 13 14 opinion on your part. 15 MR. BROWN: 16 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: And this will be an Yes. But I know you've 17 been with the company for a while. In your dealings 18 with this company and in accepting broker's offers, or 19 trying to get these sales. 20 pressured to accept a sale that somebody else within 21 the company said, I'm not sure we can do this trip or 22 anything like that? Have you ever been 23 MR. BROWN: No. 24 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 25 MR. BROWN: Okay. I'm not. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 23 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 Okay. And from your 2 perspective as a sales person, can you kind of give me 3 a general feeling of what you feel the safety culture 4 of this operation is? 5 MR. BROWN: 6 maintenance is great. 7 Feedback from our customers. 8 I've been with the company, it'll be five years in 9 August. 10 All our pilots well I would say, yes, we're are very top notch. ARGUS Gold, Wyvern Registered, very safe. INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: MR. BROWN: Customers, brokers. I mean we have a good reputation, in 135. 17 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 18 MR. BROWN: 19 repetitive customers. With the brokers? With the brokers, and users, INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 20 21 You said great feedback from customers -- 15 16 Like I said, you know trained, you know from school and training. 13 14 Our We have a great reputation. Never had an incident. 11 12 I think we're very safe. All right. I don't have anything more. 22 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 23 MR. SHACKLEFORD: Okay, Donnie. I would like to ask a 24 question, this is my own personal thing and a lot of 25 times -NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 24 INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 1 I hate to cut you 2 off again, is it a question for the NTSB investigation. 3 Or a personal, how do you mean a personal question? MR. SHACKLEFORD: 4 Well, let's just skip it. 5 We'll just skip it. I was just going to ask a question 6 about -- I'll tell you what. 7 you don't think he should answer it, how about you tell 8 us. I'll ask the question, if INVESTIGATOR LAWRENCE: 9 10 I was going with it. 11 MR. JAHR: 12 MR. SHACKLEFORD: That's exactly where Okay, let's go ahead. A lot of times as a pilot, 13 you know that when I'm out flying, if I can't, if I 14 have an issue about going from this airport to that 15 airport because of weather. 16 phone and call and say, hey guys, I can't get in here 17 because the weather's bad. 18 MR. BROWN: 19 MR. SHACKLEFORD: I might likely pick up the Right. Can you make arrangements 20 for these people to get more transportation? 21 or Renato call you and ask you, or say anything to you 22 about the weather that day? MR. BROWN: 23 24 Did Oscar That day we did not get any text message, no call of any issues with weather. MR. SHACKLEFORD: 25 Well then, you know on NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 25 1 follow-up on that on my part, is I always send a door's 2 closed, a door's open just like everybody else. 3 MR. BROWN: Yes. 4 MR. SHACKLEFORD: I always list an 5 alternate. Did they list an, list an alternate on 6 their door's closed that you remember? MR. BROWN: 7 8 door's closed. 9 the last message. I did get a door's closed, and that was MR. SHACKLEFORD: 10 11 I didn't see an alternate on the That's all I wanted to ask. 12 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 13 MR. BROWN: 14 Okay. However, in the past, yes. have from Oscar and other captains. 15 (Simultaneous speaking) 16 MR. SHACKLEFORD: Most of the captains 17 (inaudible) and I just wondered if they did that on 18 that day? 19 MR. BROWN: 20 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 21 MR. DRAGO: 22 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 23 I No they didn't on that day. And John? No, I have nothing. Okay. Thank you. Just a few little questions and then you're almost done. 24 MR. BROWN: Okay. 25 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: In your almost five NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 26 1 years here with Execuflight, have you had any 2 interaction or dealings with the FAA here. 3 ever seen them come by? MR. BROWN: 4 5 Or have you I've seen them come by. But I haven't interacted with them. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 6 Okay. And if you see 7 an issue, whatever it may be, is there a policy or a 8 procedure in place at Execuflight for you to voice that 9 concern. For whatever it may be? 10 MR. BROWN: 11 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 12 Is there a procedure? that Execuflight has for airing concerns? 13 MR. BROWN: 14 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 15 A policy or procedure Yes, of course. What is that policy or procedure? MR. BROWN: 16 Well I go directly to you know, 17 chief pilot and Danny to voice my concern. 18 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 19 anywhere that you can think of? 20 knowledge? MR. BROWN: 21 22 Is that written Or is it just common Just common knowledge. I've never, if it got written, but -- yes. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 23 Okay. All right. 24 all done with my questions, nobody else has any? 25 right. All NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 I'm (202) 234-4433 27 Is there anything that you can think of that 1 2 we should have asked and we didn't, that you think 3 would help us with this investigation, or in general? MR. BROWN: 4 5 that you needed to ask, yes. INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 6 7 I think asked all the questions All righty, do you have any other comments? 8 MR. BROWN: 9 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 10 Okay. Nope, nope. Great. I appreciate it. 11 MR. BROWN: 12 INVESTIGATOR ETCHER: 13 MR. BROWN: 14 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 15 You're welcome. Thanks for coming in. Thank you. off the record.) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 28 C E R T I F I C A T E MATTER: Execuflight Hawker Accident Akron, OH, November 10, 2015 Accident No. CEN16MA036 Interview of Nick Brown DATE: December 3, 2015 * IFSFCZ DFSUJGZ UIBU UIF BUUBDIFE USBOTDSJQUJPO PG QBHF 1 to 28 inclusive are to the best of my QSPGFTTJPOBM ability a true, accurate, and complete record of the above referenced proceedings as contained on the provided audio recording GVSUIFS UIBU * BN OFJUIFS DPVOTFM GPS OPS SFMBUFE UP OPS FNQMPZFE CZ BOZ PG UIF QBSUJFT UP UIJT BDUJPO JO XIJDI UIJT QSPDFFEJOH IBT UBLFO QMBDF BOE GVSUIFS UIBU * BN OPU GJOBODJBMMZ OPS PUIFSXJTF JOUFSFTUFE JO UIF PVUDPNF PG UIF BDUJPO. ----------------------- NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1 NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD -----------------------------: IN RE: : : THE EXECUFLIGHT HAWKER : NTSB Accident No. ACCIDENT THAT OCCURRED IN : CEN16MA036 AKRON, OHIO ON NOVEMBER 10, : 2015 : : -----------------------------: INTERVIEW OF: ROBERT ADAMO* Thursday, December 3, 2015 Banyon Aviation Ft. Lauderdale Executive Airport Ft. Lauderdale, Florida BEFORE DAVID LAWRENCE, Investigator, NTSB SEAN ETCHER, Investigator, NTSB NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Interviewee: CHRISTOPHER JAHR, ESQ. Wicker Smith O'Hara McCoy & Ford P.A. SunTrust Center 515 East Las Olas Boulevard, Suite 1400 Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 Tel.: (954) Fax: (954) On Behalf of ExecuFlight: DONNIE SHACKLEFORD On Behalf of the Federal Aviation Administration: JOHN DRAGO* *Present by teleconference NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 3 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1 (Time not disclosed) 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 So let me get started here 4 this morning. And good morning to everybody. My name 5 is Captain David Lawrence. 6 Transportation Safety Board. 7 chairman for the ExecuFlight Hawker accident that 8 occurred in Akron, Ohio last month. I'm with the the National I am the Operations Group My role here is to learn what I can about 9 10 the accident so I can assist in the investigation and 11 hopefully we can prevent this from reoccurring again. 12 As part of our process, we invite parties to 13 participate in the investigation to provide us 14 technical expertise. For this particular group, we have myself, 15 16 the NTSB, 17 going to go around the room now, Bob, and ask everyone 18 that's here to introduce themselves, and also on the 19 phone, and provide their affiliation. MR. ETCHER: 20 21 Good morning. I'm My name is Sean Etcher and I'm with the NTSB. MR. JAHR: 22 23 ExecuFlight, Textron, and the FAA. This is Chris Jahr with the Wicker Smith Law Firm. Can you hear me okay, Bob? 24 MR. ADAMO: Yes, Chris. 25 MR. SHACKLEFORD: Good morning, Bob. This NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 4 1 is Donnie, Donnie Shackleford, Captain with the Hawker 2 for ExecuFlight. 3 MR. LAWRENCE: 4 MR. ADAMO: And on the phone? And it's Robert Adamo on the 5 phone. Used to be the Director of Operations for 6 ExecuFlight, resigned a few months ago. 7 MR. LAWRENCE: 8 MR. DRAGO: 9 Cleveland, Ohio. 11 John Drago with the FAA, out of Good morning. MR. LAWRENCE: 10 Also on the phone? And, John, if you would, with the FAA, explain your role in this process. MR. DRAGO: 12 Thank you, David. I'm John 13 Drago. I'm the inspector out of the Cleveland office. 14 My role here is to simply assist the NTSB operations 15 group in furthering the investigation. 16 to any enforcements or any adverse actions based on 17 anything that I learn here with the group. MR. LAWRENCE: 18 Thanks, John. I'm not party Okay? And, Bob, 19 you're welcome to have one representative of your 20 choice attend and sit in with you. 21 choice to -MR. ADAMO: 22 23 way. Let's just it that That's good. MR. LAWRENCE: 24 25 Chris is fine. Is Chris your Okay. And as I mentioned earlier, as part of this process, I'll record the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 5 1 interview and we'll have a transcription made which 2 will eventually become part of the factual record. 3 audio of this interview will not be part of any public 4 docket. 5 any questions before we get started here? Do you have any questions about the process or 6 MR. ADAMO: 7 MR. LAWRENCE: No. I'm ready to go. Okay, great. Again, if you 8 can't hear me or if you have difficulty, just let me 9 know. 10 MR. ADAMO: 11 MR. LAWRENCE: Oh, yeah, I will. Oh, great, Bob. Let me start 12 off with the easy ones, and I'll just get your full 13 name and age. MR. ADAMO: 14 Okay, Robert Anthony Adamo and, 15 I'm, let's see, I'm 51 for another month. 16 should work. MR. LAWRENCE: 17 18 The Okay. Great. So that And when you were at ExecuFlight what was your title? MR. ADAMO: 19 Director of Operations was my -- 20 the title prior to resigning was Director of 21 Operations. 22 MR. LAWRENCE: 23 MR. ADAMO: Okay, and -- I held other titles within the 24 company in prior years, but that was the last title 25 that I held. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 6 MR. LAWRENCE: 1 Okay, we'll go back to that 2 in a second, but when did you -- how long were you 3 Director of Operations? 4 5 MR. ADAMO: Guesstimation, about two years. 6 MR. LAWRENCE: 7 work for ExecuFlight? 8 MR. ADAMO: 9 MR. LAWRENCE: 10 Okay. When did you start February of 2011. Okay. All right. And, I'm curious, what do you do now? MR. ADAMO: 11 Right now I'm actually Director 12 of Maintenance for another 135 operation as well as a 13 line captain. 14 I'm with now, but I moved over to the Director of 15 Maintenance position. 16 Let's put it that way. I like maintenance the best. MR. LAWRENCE: 17 18 I was Director of Ops for this company Right. And when did you separate from ExecuFlight? MR. ADAMO: 19 Technically, I left in February 20 of 2015. I stayed on a little longer while he was 21 trying to find a replacement. 22 for trying to find a replacement. 23 what the problem was, but I finally fully severed, I 24 believe it was the end of September. 25 until September, I was on actively as Director of Ops There were some issues I'm not really sure But from February NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 7 1 for the company, but my role was limited because I was 2 already employed by this other company. MR. LAWRENCE: 3 4 Okay. And why did you leave ExecuFlight? MR. ADAMO: 5 Well, you know, bigger, better 6 things. 7 problems of my own, family issues. 8 Orlando area and the company was down in south Florida. 9 I'd been away from home for over three years, so that 10 There was no real -- I had some internal I live up in the kind of led to it. And I had the opportunity to be involved 11 12 with this other certificate which is closer to home. 13 And, you know, and then there was, you know, there was 14 some internal strife but nothing worth mentioning at 15 this point. MR. LAWRENCE: 16 17 MR. ADAMO: 19 MR. LAWRENCE: 20 MR. ADAMO: Okay. Do you want -- Do you want me to state them or -- 22 MR. LAWRENCE: 23 MR. ADAMO: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Let me go quickly through your certificates and ratings. 18 21 Okay. Yes. -- do you want to -What are your certificates and ratings? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 8 1 MR. ADAMO: Oh, what are my certificates? 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. ADAMO: Yes. Of an ATP, I'm type rated in the 4 Westwind, the Hawker, the Gulfstream III, Gulfstream V, 5 SIC in the IV. 6 position with the FAA but I gave that up when I kind of 7 left the -- I didn't need the IA anymore so I kind of 8 gave it up. 9 flight instructor CFI, CFII, MEI. I also hold an A&P. Trying to think. 10 MR. LAWRENCE: 11 MR. ADAMO: 12 MR. LAWRENCE: 13 MR. ADAMO: I've held the IA I'm also a certified Okay, great. Medical? Oh, yeah, First Class Medical. First? Any limitations? Not anymore, no. I did have 14 cancer at one point and that -- I actually lost my 15 Medical for about four years. 16 it back and, of course, there's the hoops to jump 17 through that. 18 cure, I went back to Standard Medical. 20 Got it. What aircraft did you fly when you were with ExecuFlight? MR. ADAMO: 21 22 And eventually, when I was certificated MR. LAWRENCE: 19 And then I finally got I flew the Westwind primarily and the Gulfstream III. MR. LAWRENCE: 23 24 your total time, Bob. 25 MR. ADAMO: Okay. Just an estimation of Oh, 12,000, 13,000 total time. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 9 MR. LAWRENCE: 1 2 in the Hawker at all. 3 MR. ADAMO: Okay. And you have no time Correct? No, no, I got -- now I got, I 4 want to say, close to, I'm guesstimating but close to a 5 thousand hours in the Hawker now. MR. LAWRENCE: 6 7 for ExecuFlight? MR. ADAMO: 8 9 But you didn't fly the Hawker No, but I'm flying the Hawker now for, with this company. 10 MR. LAWRENCE: 11 MR. ADAMO: We have a Hawker 800A. Okay. When -- well, let's put it this 12 way. When I left ExecuFlight it was, I had done some 13 stuff on the side, probably fly, I would say about 500 14 hours in the Hawker when I had left ExecuFlight. 15 MR. LAWRENCE: 16 MR. ADAMO: 17 Okay. But I did not fly the Hawker for ExecuFlight. MR. LAWRENCE: 18 Okay. And, if you could, 19 Bob, just give me a really brief, CliffsNotes version 20 of your background. 21 first place? What led you to ExecuFlight in the MR. ADAMO: 22 Well, let's see here. From, I 23 had developed cancer in two thousand -- well, let's 24 back up. 25 DeLand, Florida for 15-plus years. I owned a flight training facility up in We did training NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 10 1 from zero all the way to commercial, multi-engine and 2 ATP. Our forte in the business was we ran King 3 4 Airs to do the commercial end of the commercial multi- 5 instrument parts. 6 and had several contracts with the FAA -- not with the 7 FAA, I'm sorry, with the airlines to, you know, provide 8 pilots up to completion of the courses to go right into 9 a regional. And we did, we were very successful Long story, short, I got cancer back in 10 11 2001, the first bout. Then the second and hard bout 12 was 2004. 13 point, from 2004 to 2008, I had lost my Medical because 14 of the cancer. I fought that until I was, 2008, at which Then, slowly, but surely, after 2008 I got 15 16 back into it. I started as a Director of Maintenance 17 for the company. 18 registered aircraft in Jamaica. 19 I'm sorry, I also, I think I neglected to say I'm also 20 rated in the 1900. I was operating American and They were Beech 1900. So I did that for a little while. 21 Then I 22 spent a little time in Africa flying another 1900, and 23 once I got my Medical back in 2009. 24 beginning of 2009. 25 some side work. I believe it was From 2009 to 2010 I kind of did February, I think it was actually NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 11 1 December 2010 is when I first was offered a position 2 with ExecuFlight as a pilot for the Westwind because I 3 was Westwind typed. And I started in February. And somewhere in there I did a little time 4 5 with the Air America, Inc, another 135 operator, for -- 6 it was a 135 operator. 7 of St. Petersburg, Florida. 8 managed 9 office at the time or the Fort Lauderdale office before 10 It also operated a Westwind out And the certificate was by the South Florida FSDO which the Miami they kind of combined. So, yeah, I came into ExecuFlight in 11 12 beginning of 2011. By the time you got done with all 13 the training school, ya-de ya-da, I went on line, I 14 believe it was February of 2011. 15 the Westwind. I was a captain of 16 I was there roughly, oh, three, four months 17 and I was also, then, I believe -- I don't remember if 18 it was that I did it right away or whether it was a 19 month or two that I was there, but I also went on as 20 Chief Inspector for ten or more aircraft, the 21 Gulfstreams to be the Chief Inspector for the 22 maintenance side. About six months down the line, I believe, 23 24 the Director of Maintenance retired. 25 not retired. Or, I'm sorry, I shouldn't say he retired. He resigned. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 12 1 He went on to bigger and better things. 2 over as DOM. 3 DOM. And I took I was there, roughly, about a year as 4 Then I briefly moved up to Chief Pilot for 5 about six months because I had all the qualifications 6 and I'd done it before. 7 months later is when I became Director of Ops, and from 8 that point on until I resigned, I was Director of 9 Operations. MR. LAWRENCE: 10 11 And then, I would say, six CliffsNotes version. Nice, condensed I appreciate that, Bob. 12 MR. ADAMO: 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 Great. Yes. What were your roles and responsibilities as Director of Operations? MR. ADAMO: 15 Well, the standard roles and 16 operations for any director of operations -- daily 17 operation of the control of the, of the company. 18 coordinated scheduling with maintenance, pilot 19 training, even though that was the Chief Pilot's job. 20 You know, day-to-day operations. 21 the exact roles in front of me to talk to you. 22 MR. LAWRENCE: 23 MR. ADAMO: 24 I I mean, I don't have No. But it was, it's listed in, as part of 119. MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Okay. You ran as a 119? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 13 MR. ADAMO: 1 No, they're -- the 2 qualifications required to be a Director of Operations 3 is 119. 4 MR. LAWRENCE: 5 MR. ADAMO: Right. Section 119. Yes, I also was 6 the general manager. 7 was DM/GM -- it was a DO/GM type position. MR. LAWRENCE: 8 9 I keep forgetting that part. Where's -- what do you do as a general manager? MR. ADAMO: 10 Well, it was, like I said, day- 11 to-day operations -- took care of scheduling, helped 12 with the scheduling part of it, bills, accounting 13 purposes. 14 to do. Made sure everybody, you know, had something Was more of an office type position. And, you know, we were involved with -- I 15 16 didn't set up any accounting or banking. 17 to Danny. 18 like the, you know, day-to-day operations of the 19 company. 20 general manager. But I ran Helped out with computer systems, you know, I mean, it was how you explain it. MR. LAWRENCE: 22 MR. ADAMO: just cover-to-cover. Okay. Day-to-day operations. I mean, I mean, so. MR. LAWRENCE: 24 25 That was left He was the president and ran it. 21 23 It And you held some of these roles simultaneously? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 14 1 MR. ADAMO: The GM/DO, yes. 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. ADAMO: Okay. Was that challenging? At times, yeah. At times. You 4 know, but there was no real conflict between the two 5 positions because the DO is pretty much -- if you look 6 at the definitions and responsibilities, it's very 7 close to being a general manager. MR. LAWRENCE: 8 9 Yes, all right. So let me ask you, did you -- had you ever had an opportunity to 10 fly with either Oscar or Renato? 11 MR. ADAMO: No. They came in after I had 12 left. I think I spoke to Renato on the phone, maybe 13 twice, when he was first hired to try to get him into a 14 training class. 15 scheduling when I was -- it was just after I had left 16 and I was still there, and I was the Go-To, da-da, 17 while he was trying to transition. We were trying to work out his That would have been, I want to say, March 18 19 of 2015. And I got him scheduled into a CAE to be ready 20 to, you know, go into class. 21 contact with Renato. 22 even talking to him or meeting him at all. And, with Oscar, I don't recall MR. LAWRENCE: 23 And, but that was my only Okay, so you had no 24 interaction with them. I know you said you left in 25 February of this year, but you were still doing work NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 15 1 with the company up until September. 2 have any interaction with them? MR. ADAMO: 3 No. I left it all to the Chief 4 Pilot to deal with their training. 5 interactions with them at all. MR. LAWRENCE: 6 And you didn't Okay. And so I had no Were you involved, at 7 any point in time, in the hiring of either of these two 8 pilots? MR. ADAMO: 9 No. MR. LAWRENCE: 10 Okay. And just, I think 11 you've alluded to this but I'll just double-check. 12 you have an opportunity to communicate with either of 13 these pilots outside the work environment? 14 MR. ADAMO: 15 MR. LAWRENCE: 16 MR. ADAMO: 17 MR. LAWRENCE: Did No. Okay. Not at all. Okay. So let me go, there's 18 a couple other things that were under kind of general 19 areas of responsibility with the company while you were 20 there. 21 a practice that captains would primarily fly these legs 22 on these charters with passengers, and not the First 23 Officers. 24 empty legs. So one of the things we've learned is there was And the First Officers primarily would fly Were you aware of that practice? MR. ADAMO: 25 Okay, you broke up a little bit. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 16 1 So one more time? MR. LAWRENCE: 2 Yes, no problem, Bob. One of 3 the things we learned through some of the other pilots 4 we've talked to is that the captains primarily would 5 fly the passenger legs on these charters. 6 MR. ADAMO: Correct. 7 MR. LAWRENCE: And the First Officers would 8 primarily only fly when the legs were empty, like a 9 reposition fly or ferry fly or something like that. 10 Were you aware of that? MR. ADAMO: 11 Yes. Actually, that was one of 12 the safety proposals in place when I was there. And, 13 but that's not exactly accurate. 14 will fly the empty leg, pending his experience level. 15 You know, you'd get some younger First Officers that 16 weren't quickly up to speed or that needed, you know, 17 some finessing. The First Officer So the captain, yes, he's the experienced 18 19 guy. He would fly the passenger legs. And if it's a 20 newer First Officer that had yet not developed, you 21 know, enough experience or the captain didn't feel, the 22 PIC did not feel he was ready to fly with passengers -- 23 maybe his landings were a little rough, maybe he was a 24 little too stiff on the controls, we gave them, you 25 know, we let, we told them, okay, yeah, fly, fly the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 17 1 empty legs. 2 Let them fly the empty legs. 3 confidence in the aircraft, experience. 4 eventually, of course, they would also fly the 5 passenger legs. 6 with that would be they would have to be looked at as a 7 one-on-one basis because if you put two, you know, 8 seasoned captains on the aircraft, like Donny 9 Shackleford and Rich Rivudo, one would, of course, be a 10 PIC, one would be SIC and, no, either one could fly the 11 leg at that point. And then So that would be, the true statement MR. LAWRENCE: 12 Let them build I noticed that you mentioned 13 that, early on, you called it a safety protocol that 14 you had. 15 Or was this just something that was kind of a generally 16 accepted practice? Is this a defined practice in this operation? MR. ADAMO: 17 No, well, by defined, did we 18 have it written down anywhere? I believe the GOM did 19 state that -- and, again, I'm going by memory here 20 because I'm, you know -- 21 MR. LAWRENCE: 22 MR. ADAMO: Yes, I understand. I'm dealing with a different GOM 23 now. I believe the GOM, there were some pairing 24 limitations and as well, as experience limitations in 25 there. And I just expanded on it a little bit as the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 18 1 DO at the time saying, okay, wait a minute. 2 going to take a young guy and let him go fly passengers 3 so he scares everybody. We left it up to the captain. 4 We're not And we made 5 it and internal practice to say, okay, you know, young 6 FOs, 7 you'll get to practice on the empty legs. 8 it all depended on the conditions, day/night, VFR, IFR 9 and so on. you don't get to fly this with passengers or And, again, Like there was no way would I allow a First 10 11 Officer that's just out of school with just refresh 12 type rating go out there and fly in a full-blown IFR 13 approach, down to minimums, you know, on his first 14 couple of weeks, even without passengers. 15 to meet a criteria that we had set in place. 16 almost certain that I want to say it is part of the 17 GOM. 18 implement for safety reasons. It all had And I'm If it is not, it was something that we did MR. LAWRENCE: 19 Okay. So I haven't -- I 20 don't recall seeing that but I'll take your word on it. 21 I just want to kind of expand on that. 22 would you allow a first officer to go, you know, before 23 he would -- if you didn't allow him to -- if the 24 captains weren't allowing him to make the landings with 25 the passengers, would you -- I'm trying to figure out How far out NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 19 1 how long you would let him go to that, in that level 2 before you make a decision that he's, if he's not 3 experienced enough to do this, we may need to let him 4 go or do something else. I mean, would you let these guys go a year? 5 6 You said, coming right out of school, you never let a 7 guy do an IFR approach down to minimums. 8 you? MR. ADAMO: 9 Right. 10 it's on a one-on-one basis. 11 set protocol. 12 make that determination. 13 you know, well how's he doing? When would Yes, well, you know, We really didn't have a We left it up to the PICs, to kind of And we always were asking, What's going on? There were some things that I did implement 14 15 that I had issues with getting results with, and that 16 was one of my frustrations there. 17 you know, we did do our best to, the captains did their 18 best to follow this practice. 19 PIC. 20 look, you know, you've got a young first officer. At the same time, And we gave it to the He's the most experienced guy. And we told him, And this was only, again, if it was somebody 21 22 that was a young first officer with no -- you know, a 23 1,000-hour guy or a 500-hour guy with minimum ratings 24 and minimum time. 25 basis, and it all depends on what was in, you know, It all, it was on a one-on-one NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 20 1 what was their level of experience. And I want to say that a safe buffer is six 2 3 months. Within six months they usually had to, you 4 know, show some, you know, good judgment and good 5 improvement. 6 year, that would be a final determination of whether or 7 not they would even stay on with the company. And then within the next six months to a 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. ADAMO: Right. Now we did have issues with -- 10 and this is just about in every 135 operation -- of 11 pilots coming and going. 12 for a year with you and then they get offered more 13 money from another company and, next thing you know, is 14 they'll be resigning. You know, they take on a job And we did have a, you know, a turnover of 15 16 pilots. So it's fair to say that you can't really 17 generalize this statement by saying, you know, we went 18 three months, five months, six months. 19 individual basis and the PIC is the one that would, you 20 know, make that determination and talk to with Chief 21 Pilot and make his recommendation. It was on an And the Chief Pilot, of course, we would 22 23 have a meeting and we would discuss it and, you know, 24 and if he gave it his blessing I said, okay. 25 you guys go to it. You know, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 21 MR. LAWRENCE: 1 Okay. I'm curious, what was 2 it you tried to get implemented with the company that 3 it had difficulty doing? MR. ADAMO: 4 Well, because of scheduling 5 conflicts, I wanted to have at least a one week safety 6 meeting, at least once a month where we stood down and 7 just, you know, reviewed operational situations. 8 know, talked about things that could have happened or 9 might have happened, any difficulties they might have 10 You had. We were successful in doing it a few times 11 12 but then there was a couple times where we couldn't get 13 it done because of scheduling conflicts and we couldn't 14 get everybody together, crews were out instead of in. 15 And we found that holding a meeting with only a partial 16 crew attending actually caused more strife than if we 17 had the meeting at all because some people would have 18 things to say that other people didn't have to say. It was more like -- no, I don't know. 19 My 20 use of terminology here, does it really matter at this 21 point if I say something like inappropriate? MR. JHAR: 22 23 want on the record. MR. ADAMO: 24 25 No, Bob, you only use what you complaint situation. Okay, well it was more like a You know, we tried to -- the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 22 1 meeting was to let the pilots air out whatever 2 difficulties they might have if, 3 not want to come out, and if it wasn't anything of 4 great urgency or important. 5 always open for people that had a problem like that. you know, they might Of course, our doors were But it was like, okay, this is the place for 6 7 you guys to sit down and talk. 8 with Pilot A, let him know what your issues are. 9 you have a problem with Pilot B, let him know what your 10 If you have a problem If issues are, and back and forth. Because, of course, just like any other 11 12 company, there is issues with conflict of 13 personalities. 14 during these meetings because you're not up in the 15 aircraft with the crew. 16 whether or not they click and work together great or 17 whether there is some friction in the cockpit. And the only way you get to see that is So it's hard to determine And so, you know, these are things that we 18 19 did try to implement and cover. 20 at certain times. 22 And other times we were not. MR. LAWRENCE: 21 And we were successful When was the last time you were successful at getting one of these meetings? MR. ADAMO: 23 I want to say we held a meeting 24 at Bangon, and I can't tell you the exact date, but it 25 would have been sometime about maybe eight months NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 23 1 before I left, maybe ten months before I left. 2 would have been the summer, I think, of '14 was the 3 last time we had a sit-down. MR. LAWRENCE: 4 Okay. It Did you have other 5 meetings that you communicated with the pilots? 6 than getting them all in a room to talk to them, did 7 you send, you know, emails? MR. ADAMO: 8 9 Rather Of course, we would, you know, communications, telephone, email, text. We talked, 10 like I said, my door was always open to that. Anybody 11 had anything to say, they were always free to come in 12 and talk to me. Now, I will say that the proper chain of 13 14 command was that they talk to the Chief Pilot first. 15 If they couldn't get things resolved there, then it 16 would come to my attention. 17 sometimes would bring things to my attention. 18 times he dealt with it himself. MR. LAWRENCE: 19 And the Chief Pilot All right. Other Kind of leads me 20 to another question. 21 safety or somebody responsible for the safety of the 22 operation? MR. ADAMO: 23 Did you guys have a director of No. See, that was another thing 24 that we would -- okay, without really throwing anybody 25 under the bus here, but, you know, I did actually have NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 24 1 it written to the GOM that involved adding the, an SMS 2 system to the company and bringing out a director of 3 safety. But it was tough to get things accomplished 4 5 out of the South Florida FSDO. 6 would be submitted, revisions would be submitted. 7 sometimes they'd get there, sometimes they didn't. 8 Sometimes they got lost. 9 iPad approval, to do iPads for the cockpit to do the 10 program. MR. LAWRENCE: Bob? For example, I wanted to get I'm sorry, what was that, The -- say -MR. ADAMO: 13 14 And I started that process, oh, my, God -- 11 12 You know, documents Yes, like they used iPads in the cockpit. 15 MR. LAWRENCE: 16 MR. ADAMO: Oh, okay, iPads. I started that process with Jim, 17 I want to say, God, January of '14. 18 that's what we wanted to do. Then we had several 19 conversations. 20 very reluctant to allow it. 21 comfortable with it. 22 complete package to him, and I believe, up to this day, 23 he's never approved it. I developed several programs and he was He didn't, wasn't Finally, it was submitted, a Meanwhile, you know, I was able to get that 24 25 I alluded that same package approved in multiple operations. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 25 MR. ETCHER: 1 And, Bob, so the record's 2 clear, you're referring to Jim Piccoli, in the South 3 Florida FSDO office? MR. ADAMO: 4 Yes, Jim Piccoli. Great guy and 5 everything, you know, but it was, sometimes there was 6 talk, because of his workload he couldn't get the -- I 7 don't know the real reasons. 8 really couldn't get what we needed. But the bottom line is we What I thought we needed accomplished from 9 10 them, it would take time. And most of the time the 11 excuses were that, hey, you know, I got 35 certificates 12 I got to look after. 13 I can get to it. I, you know, I'll get to it when Now, with that being said, he was always 14 15 there for us as far as getting check rides done. You 16 know, he 17 getting us 293 orals taken care of. 18 got, I believe he just got check admin approval, and 19 that was something I started when I first took over in 20 2013, requesting check admin approval. would definitely take care of us as far as You know, we just And it finally happened because, towards the 21 22 very end here, we couldn't even get a check ride 23 schedule from National Resource. 24 I'd be months and months out the line. 25 to have a captain come out of school and then sit It was really tough. And, you know, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 26 1 around for two months and then put him on a check ride 2 right after that, you know, two months later, on the 3 line -- I personally felt that wasn't fair either, you 4 know, to have somebody sit around for two months and 5 then send them for a ride. But, you know, that's sort of the kind of 6 7 situation we had, is that we had issues trying to get 8 paperwork accomplished. 9 our GOM. Or approvals on expansion of MR. LAWRENCE: 10 Any other under your check 11 rides before you guys get your own check airmen through 12 the National Resources because of the Hawker and its 13 age? 14 MR. ADAMO: Okay, say that one more time? 15 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes, I was just curious, so 16 you had to run through National Resource to get an op, 17 a FAA designee because of the age of the aircraft or 18 there just wasn't anybody other in the FAA typed on 19 the, or qualed on the Hawker? MR. ADAMO: 20 No, I mean, not really. The 21 700, 800s, that's all one type rating and, as far as my 22 understanding is there's plenty of 800 XPs out there. 23 I mean, I didn't think there was anybody available in 24 South Florida. 25 get somebody out of Oklahoma City. We had to go -- we ended up having to I'm trying to think NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 27 1 of his name. I do have his name on my phone list here. Hold on a second. 2 Let me see if I can -- 3 and this was one of the last things that I did as 4 Director of Ops. 5 Mark Rogers has to come in from Oklahoma to do a check 6 ride for a couple of our captains. 7 was March or April. I want to say this And, but the request had been in since, I 8 9 Mark Rogers, Oklahoma City FSDO, yes. want to say December. I mean, it -- or maybe, no, I'm 10 sorry. I'll -- don't hold me to those dates because I 11 can't remember exactly. 12 him in to do the check ride. 13 when he actually came to do it. I do know that we had to call MR. LAWRENCE: 14 He might have a record of Okay. You alluded to it 15 earlier, Bob, but I want to just double-check my notes 16 here. 17 along on the flights, just to observe the operation? Did you ever have an opportunity to just ride 18 MR. ADAMO: One more time? 19 MR. LAWRENCE: Yes, as Director of 20 Operations, did you ever have an opportunity to just 21 ride along on the flights to observe the crews in the 22 normal line operations? MR. ADAMO: 23 Yes, actually, I did. I did on 24 several occasions, actually, both in the Hawker and in 25 the Gulfstream. I can't tell you exact dates, but we NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 28 1 did, I did do a few ride alongs. Trying to think, when 2 was, the last, I believe, was on the G3 and it was 3 with, I want to say, (phonetic) Tom Poole and, oh, it 4 was a first officer, might have been (phonetic) Scott 5 Meade where I, it wasn't a, technically, it wasn't an 6 observation ride. It wasn't a scheduled observation ride. 7 It 8 was just I happened to be on the aircraft, coming back 9 with them. And I think we were coming back out of New 10 York. And I guess that I used that time as 11 constructively as possible, and I kind of did an 12 observation, you know. 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 MR. ADAMO: 15 MR. LAWRENCE: 16 Good. Checked things out. Did you have scheduled observation rides on the crews? MR. ADAMO: 17 No. No, there was nothing set 18 for it that, what was going to be, you know, a 19 scheduled event. 20 one, then we scheduled one. 21 ever to actually schedule one because of any kind of 22 issue. If we felt that there was a need for MR. LAWRENCE: 23 But I don't remember ever Okay. Just a couple, I want 24 to change gears here on you, Bob, and talk about the 25 scheduling of your crews. Who was responsible for NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 29 1 scheduling the crews for particular charters? MR. ADAMO: 2 Okay, well, the process was 3 this, It would start at the sales site. 4 course, would sell the trip, and they would assign a 5 pilot based on who was available and then they would 6 submit it up to the Chief Pilot and he would approve 7 it. If he wasn't available to approve it it 8 9 They, of would come to my desk. If I wasn't available and the 10 Chief Pilot wasn't available, then it would, they would 11 have to -- it would go to Danny but I want to say while 12 I was there, 99 percent of the time, we got it either 13 via email or via text or via a phone call or in person. 14 MR. LAWRENCE: 15 MR. ADAMO: 16 Okay. After I left, I can't tell you. I mean, I really don't know. 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 MR. ADAMO: 19 MR. LAWRENCE: I understand. Don't have knowledge. We kind of learned that you 20 guys have these individuals that are kind of termed 21 dispatchers/sales reps. 22 what these dispatchers functions are? Can you kind of just describe 23 MR. ADAMO: There is no -- I don't know 24 where -- there is no dispatchers. 25 dispatchers. There is no These are just sales guys. At least, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 30 1 while I was there, that's all they did. They basically 2 sold and they put on, and they, you know, assigned the 3 aircraft to dates and the people. 4 dispatchers. But they were not The did not tell the crew, you're released, 5 6 you're not released. That was the job of either the 7 Chief Pilot, myself or, I believe, Danny had limited 8 authority. 9 terminology but they're not a hundred percent sure what That's the dispatch. 10 it means, I guess. I don't know. 11 they would, but they do. 12 MR. LAWRENCE: 13 MR. ADAMO: People use I don't know why Oh. As far as the process, the way 14 it was handled while I was there, it went from they 15 would sell the flight. 16 the availability of the airplane was. 17 they've selected the airplane, they'd see what the 18 availability of the crew was. They would, you know, see what Then once They would assign those numbers and then 19 20 they would go either email, text or call us and, you 21 know, hey, I did -- is this okay, good to go? 22 sure, fine. 23 with the company for a while, they pretty much had that 24 down to a routine because we knew that, you know, the 25 captain for this particular airplane would be Donny and Not a problem. Yeah, Now after somebody's been NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 31 1 the first officer would be (phonetic) Rydell. 2 flew together 90 percent of the time, so they would put 3 them together. 4 They Then, you know, or they knew who the four pilots 5 were for these particular two airplanes and so on. 6 the word, the terminology of dispatcher to a sales guy, 7 I don't know what you guys are up with that or where 8 it's coming from. 9 implemented, so. But it wasn't something that was MR. LAWRENCE: 10 Okay, I'm clear on that. 11 Thanks. 12 were responsible for the flight, planning of the 13 flight. So just correct me if I'm wrong. Captains Correct? MR. ADAMO: 14 Correct. Okay, captains were 15 ultimately responsible. 16 their duties to the first officer to give them 17 practice. 18 supposed to -- that the paperwork done. They might have delegated But, yes, the captain was the guy that was MR. LAWRENCE: 19 20 So Okay. What about receiving weather proceedings? 21 MR. ADAMO: Captain and First Officer, both. 22 They were responsible to get their own -- both parties 23 were responsible to get their own briefings. 24 knew this, only because one set of eyes doesn't 25 necessarily see the same thing as the other set of eyes And they NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 32 1 does. MR. LAWRENCE: Okay. 2 Was the -- I guess the 3 guys were using that FltPlan.com to load their flight 4 plans in. Correct? 5 MR. ADAMO: 6 MR. LAWRENCE: 7 MR. ADAMO: 8 Yes. Okay. FltPlan.com was the preferred method, and with that company. MR. LAWRENCE: 9 Okay. Was the preferred 10 method for obtaining a weather brief using the weather 11 feature that was on that site? 12 MR. ADAMO: 13 MR. LAWRENCE: 14 Correct. Okay. And that was approved weather source? 15 MR. ADAMO: 16 MR. LAWRENCE: 17 MR. ADAMO: little bit. Yes, it is. Okay. Actually, okay, just expand on 18 that a In the beginning, when I first 19 took over, they would have, we had three approved 20 weather sources. 21 and then WX-Brief. 22 changed to any approved QCIP qualified weather source 23 which is any of the new operations now that are out 24 there, Web sites are out there that have that weather. I believe it was DUATs, FltPlan.com And we changed that, that op specs MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Okay, great. Is the way to NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 33 1 verify whether or not your crew's received a weather 2 briefing from that Web site? MR. ADAMO: 3 You know, I'm trying to think of 4 what we did. 5 were sending all their weather briefs, weight and 6 balance, everything would have been sent to the 7 aircraft's email address. I had created an email box for each 8 9 It was supposed -- when I was there they aircraft, okay. And they would go in -- and this is 10 how they did their flight planning and their weight and 11 balance in term, and what. 12 where the RDP, remote desktop profile into a virtual 13 computer. 14 would do their Ultra Nav, weight and balance and 15 performance and runway analysis. So I had to design a system And there at the virtual computer, they They would get their weather brief and their 16 17 flight planning. And they would print to a PDF 18 creator, and they would attach it to an email. 19 then they would mail that whole package -- and I called 20 it a Trip package, and there was more than just that -- 21 to the aircraft's inbox. And And, of course, we would have a record of 22 23 it. It would be a permanent record that would stay 24 there for as long as they needed it, you know, a year, 25 two years, three years, whatever was needed. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 34 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. ADAMO: Right. That's what was implemented at 3 the time. That was also used for, like I said, flight 4 planning and Ultra Nav and weather. 5 just popped into my head, but it just went right back 6 out too. 7 and You'll probably trigger something in a minute I'll let you know what it was. MR. LAWRENCE: 8 9 No, something else triggers it. Okay. Let me see if this Let me ask you, so the Trip package 10 should include the flight plan information, the weight 11 and balance and the weather briefing information? MR. ADAMO: 12 Correct. And the -- that's what 13 is was -- and the Trip package should include the -- 14 approach flights, maps. 15 we had the flight deck from Jepps on our computer, on 16 this virtual computer. 17 they can create a Trip package from Point A to Point B 18 for all the documents they needed, you know, the 19 approach flights and departure information for a 20 departure airport. We had a system in place where And they can go in there and It would create the actual airway system and 21 22 the maps for the airway system and then the arrival 23 information as well as any alternates or any other 24 airports that they felt was pertinent to the flight. 25 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 35 1 And this package would be printed to a PDF 2 format and then it would be attached to that email as 3 we. MR. LAWRENCE: 4 And the pilots could print 5 that up as necessary since it had chart information. 6 Correct? MR. ADAMO: 7 Yes, they can print it. They 8 can email it to themselves and then print it from any 9 computer and any FBO. MR. LAWRENCE: 10 Okay, good. And you 11 mentioned Jepp charts. 12 those up for destination -- or departure and 13 destination. Did these aircraft have its own set of 14 Jepp charts? What happened if you had to divert en 15 route due to an emergency? 16 chart? MR. ADAMO: 17 They had the ability to print What, how could you pull a No, they had to, still had to 18 carry charts. 19 that we carried a set of full route charts in the 20 airplanes for highs and lows of the whole United 21 States. They were in there. Now as far as the charts -- you mean the 22 23 We still had to -- our situation was approach flights themselves in case they had to divert? 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 MR. ADAMO: Yeas. Exactly. Well, you know, they were NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 36 1 supposed to think about all that and print out what 2 they felt was necessary. 3 I instructed them to do it, would say, you know, 4 listen, you know, you pick at least three points along 5 your route where if you have to divert because of a 6 situation, think of -- if your flight's two and a half 7 hours long, pick a spot every 15 minutes down the line 8 and print it yourself. Honestly, when I do it, when Because it's a PDF. 9 I mean, it's not going 10 to hurt you. 11 need it, you don't need it. And print these off for 12 you. 13 have to make an emergency landing somewhere you're -- 14 in a jet, 15 minutes is nothing. And It's there if you need it. then you'll have a situation where if you MR. LAWRENCE: 15 If you don't Okay, so just so I'm clear. 16 I'm a little confused, Bob. 17 its own set of charts? 18 had the charts that they would print up as part or 19 their Trip package? MR. ADAMO: 20 The aircraft didn't have It only, had, the pilots only They had their own set up maps. 21 They're trained to get their own maps. 22 trip, as far as the actual approach flights, they would 23 print them us as they needed. MR. LAWRENCE: 24 25 Got it. As far as the So there wasn't a jet binder with a bunch of diversion charts or rather NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 37 1 approach plates. It was just charts. MR. ADAMO: 2 It's probably because we didn't 3 we didn't have any set routes. 4 we were constantly flying New York-Miami, New York- 5 Miami. 6 we wanted to get away from, we wanted to get the iPad 7 approvals was because of the amount of paper that was 8 on board the aircraft. We went everywhere. You know, it's not like So one of the reasons why We really pushed for that. 9 And then we 10 found, okay, well, listen, print the charts that you 11 need to print. 12 bit of latitude as in print what you need to print. 13 you're the PIC, you need to make the determination 14 where you're going and where you're not going and print 15 these documents. But again, we gave the pilot a little So I will tell you, the ones that I did spot 16 17 check on occasion when I did spot check them, I found 18 that those, they printed the proper documents. 19 had at least two or three wait points in the middle 20 that they took care of. They Again, these were people that I had 21 22 indoctrinrated, that I had brought into the company 23 when I was there as DO, such as Donnie and Rich. 24 Rich was there before me, but, you know, people like 25 Scott Meade. But People that were there prior for IR2, be NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 38 1 resigning. After I left, I don't know what the process 2 3 was. So I don't know what these two particular pilots, 4 how they were trained or what they were told to do or 5 not to do. MR. LAWRENCE: 6 Okay. I understand. One 7 last question onf that. 8 think that an EFB approval and your pilots flying with 9 an EFB would assist them in having additional 10 Your opinion only, would you information available to them in case of a diversion? MR. ADAMO: 11 oh, a hundred percent so. Are 12 you asking me if that EFB approval would have made a 13 difference here? 14 particular situation because I don't have all the 15 facts. I don't know, to be honest, in this But for any pilot, yes, a thousand percent. 16 MR. LAWRENCE: 17 MR. ADAMO: Good. I mean, it's -- the iPads are 18 just -- it's a phenomenal tool that, it is totally 19 underutilized. MR. LAWRENCE: 20 Great. I appreciate that. 21 Let me ask you a little bit about flight following. 22 How did you guys to do flight following on your 23 flights? MR. ADAMO: 24 25 Okay, we, again, we had -- I implemented a doors open/doors closed tech message NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 39 1 policy. Pilots were required to text message prior to 2 closing the door or as closing they were closing the 3 door with the tail number and what aircraft flight 4 number, point of departure, point of arrival, estimated 5 time in route so that we had an idea of what we should 6 be -- where we should be looking for them and when we 7 should be looking for them. And then with there was a doors closed and a 8 9 doors open that was sent via text to a group of people 10 -- myself, the Chief Pilot, the director of maintenance 11 and 12 group of messages -- and the sales guys as well because 13 they're the ones that were pretty much right at the 14 computer all the time so they could very easily find 15 either of them to say, hey, where are they at and 16 they'd be able to look it right up for us and tell me 17 where they're at. as well, I believe, Danny was included in that MR. LAWRENCE: 18 Yes, I'm curious, was there 19 any means for you -- somebody on this text chain that 20 would receive these doors open/doors closed texts to 21 log that information? 22 someplace so it's recorded and not just in the phone? MR. ADAMO: 23 In other words, write it down Well, it's on -- I can tell you 24 that I have mine -- I implemented the same safety 25 feature on -- well, I don't know if I want to call it NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 40 1 safety too, but I implemented the same system on this 2 current company and I can tell you my iPhone right now 3 has got, you know, couple, you know, hundred messages. 4 It's a chain that you can print out if we 5 6 needed to. But we weren't required to, so it was -- 7 you know, the importance of it was not necessarily keep 8 a record because once the plan got on the ground 9 everybody would say it's on the ground. It was done. The importance of it was, right, at the 10 11 time, okay, the doors close. They were supposed to be 12 in the air for three hours. 13 minutes. 14 phone. 15 they're delayed. 16 FltPlan.com, on the tracking system, on the 17 FlightAware. It's three hours and 20 Why haven't we heard from them? Start making calls. Pick up the You know, find out if See if you can see them on It wasn't designed as a record-keeping 18 19 system. 20 time. It was designed as an actual event at the MR. LAWRENCE: 21 Okay. So the logging of the 22 maintenance log that had the flight times, the pilot in 23 command would put in the on and off time and the on and 24 ins -- that was the primary means to log crew flight 25 times? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 41 MR. ADAMO: 1 The flight logs, the ADL and the 2 flight log sheet was the primary means to log the 3 flight time. 4 out -- I'm sorry. 5 time, landing, log-in and I don't remember if the ones 6 for ExecuFlight had actual duty, start duty end times. 7 My current ones that I use now do. It starts with log-out, takeoff And that would be the only source that you 8 9 I believe on there there is a log-in/log- would have to determine log time. MR. LAWRENCE: 10 11 that a little bit here. 12 Bob? 13 water or coffee? Well I -- no, I've got my coffee I'm solid. MR. LAWRENCE: 16 Or do you need Whatever -- MR. ADAMO: right here. Let me shift By the way, how are you doing, Do you need a break or anything? 14 15 Okay, great. Ah, excellent. Did your 17 crews at ExecuFlight, when you were Director of 18 Operations, did they operate under, with standard 19 operating procedures, SOPs? MR. ADAMO: 20 The SOPs that were implemented 21 at that -- well, let me think here now because I know 22 once -- when I would try to get the SMS done there was 23 other SOPs that we were talking about doing. 24 the only SOPs that ExecuFlight used were part of the 25 training package manuals, and there were SOPs in there. I believe NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 42 1 They just, they were standard, boiler-plate SOPs for 2 approaches and so on. MR. LAWRENCE: 3 4 Do you know where those came from or how those were created? MR. ADAMO: 5 Well, they were before my time. 6 I believe they were implemented -- I believe the pack 7 went along -- let me think which -- no, that was a CRM 8 that I got from flight safety. 9 to have to go back to Frank Barber on that one because 10 he's 11 just continued with them. I believe you're going -- they were in place before I got there. MR. LAWRENCE: 12 Okay, great. And I Let me ask you 13 about the checklist. 14 Westwind and Hawker -- I know you didn't fly the 15 Hawker, but were they required to do their checklists 16 by challenge and response? MR. ADAMO: 17 Were your pilots on Gulfstream, Challenged response or flow 18 response. 19 correct way of doing it. 20 don't know what they were doing. 21 response or flow response, the captain would do three 22 things and the co-pilot would confirm what he just did 23 on the checklist. MR. LAWRENCE: 24 25 Again, challenge and response was the Once they closed the door, I But challenge and Okay, so you don't know what they did when the door closed. What were they required NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 43 1 to do like for the climb checklist, descent checklist, 2 approach checklist? 3 challenge/response? MR. ADAMO: 4 5 Were all those supposed to be Yes. Again, either challenged response or flow response. 6 MR. LAWRENCE: 7 MR. ADAMO: Got it. Depending on the amount of 8 workload. What I mean by flow response is -- it's 9 still a challenged response but it's not just being one 10 item at a time, maybe doing like three items or because 11 they're synonymous to each other. 12 couple other search -- it all depends on the situation, 13 of course. A master and maybe a But, or, you know, they do like two or three 14 15 things and then the co-pilot, right behind him, says, 16 check, check, check. 17 it would be a verbal response saying, okay, completed. 18 I see you did it. You know, yes, you did this. Completed. 19 MR. LAWRENCE: 20 MR. ADAMO: And See you did it. Okay. But most of the time it was a 21 challenge/response situation where the -- you know, 22 depending on which side of the cockpit the system was 23 on, the first officer would call out the checklist. 24 The captain would do it. 25 co-pilot's side, the co-pilot would do the actual item Sometimes, if it was on the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 44 1 and the captain would verify that he did it -- 2 MR. LAWRENCE: 3 MR. ADAMO: 4 Right. -- by responding, okay, I see you do it, I see you -- I saw you do that. MR. LAWRENCE: 5 I understand, thanks. 6 ask you about stable approach criteria. 7 ExecuFlight 8 approach criteria fleetwide? Did have their pilots operate with a stable MR. ADAMO: 9 Let me Yes, we were trained with a 10 stable approach criteria, and that was completed with 11 training at CAE. 12 not in the airplane. 13 we trained was, yes, you had to have a stable approach. You know, they would, again, you're All I could tell you is the way 14 15 I mean, anything that was unstable, you were 16 supposed to just go miss them and come around and do it 17 all over again. MR. LAWRENCE: 18 19 Do you recall what the stable approach criteria was? MR. ADAMO: 20 No, I don't. I want to say five 21 miles out you needed to be in a stabilized approach, 22 meaning, you know, configured and ready for the final 23 intercept if you're doing an ILF, but I don't really 24 remember what it was in that manual. 25 MR. LAWRENCE: Do you recall which manual NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 45 1 that would have been defined in? 2 MR. ADAMO: Again, it was, that was part of 3 the training manual so you would have to look at the 4 training record, the training manuals from -- well, the 5 actual aircraft themselves could differ from aircraft 6 to aircraft. MR. LAWRENCE: 7 Doing great. Okay. And just a couple 8 more, Bob. Were -- I know you didn't fly 9 the Hawker but you had responsibility over it. For 10 non-precision approaches, do you recall if the Hawkers 11 only means was to do a dive and drive type of approach? MR. ADAMO: 12 I personally never believed in 13 the dive and drive. I believed in a get down as 14 quickly as possible, but not a dive and drive. 15 know, you're talking about doing like a localizer down 16 to MDA and then hold your altitude until your time or 17 VME expires? 18 MR. LAWRENCE: 19 MR. ADAMO: You Right. Yes, it wasn't let's just get 20 down. I think that was -- trying to think how we 21 trained for that at the CAE. 22 a stable descent, right, not dive it into the ground, 23 you know, a thousand feet, 2,000 feet a minute rate of 24 descent. You were supposed to use It was supposed to be like 700 feet a 25 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 46 1 minute, get down to your MDA and then, and try to get 2 to the MDA as close to the point of where you would 3 normally stop at the airport, not necessarily, you 4 know, five miles out, be down to your MDA and just sit 5 there. 6 MR. LAWRENCE: 7 MR. ADAMO: 8 But I don't remember on this one, guys, I really don't -MR. LAWRENCE: 9 10 MR. ADAMO: 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 Yes. Okay. -- what was implemented there. Okay. Are you familiar with the concept of CDFA, Continuous Descent Final Approach? MR. ADAMO: 13 Yes, that's similar to an L 14 (inaudible) approach, right? I mean, it's, you start 15 the process at the right time and you hold a certain 16 altitude 17 right to your MDA at the time of missed. -- I mean, hold descent rate, so it takes you MR. LAWRENCE: 18 Right. Okay. Correct? And did you 19 use that on the Gulfstream and the Westwind when you 20 were flying those? MR. ADAMO: 21 I'm trying to think. I never 22 really had a situation where I needed to get to MDA in 23 either one of those airplanes. 24 do an ILS and make sure there was an ILS available. I would always elect to I'm a little bit more of a conservative kind 25 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 47 1 of pilot. If I'm going to a airport that doesn't have 2 an ILS, the weather's got to be above minimums, way 3 above minimums. 4 So, personally, I never put myself in a situation where 5 I'm going to descend into MDA. 6 have elected not to go or went somewhere else. 7 personally, have never been in a situation like that, 8 no. Otherwise, I would elect not to go. MR. LAWRENCE: 9 At minimums, I would Okay, understand. So I, You 10 triggered another question when you were talking about 11 the non-precision approach. 12 your guys on the line are actually seeing non-precision 13 approaches in, you know, IFR weather? 14 kidding, IFR non-precision approaches down to minimums. 15 How often does that occur? MR. ADAMO: 16 How often do you think Oh, God. I mean, no I want to say it's 17 rare. And the reason being, is, again, you know, I did 18 instill in these guys, don't go unless you can get in. 19 And I don't mean go into minimums. 20 Just, you know, if there's an ILS, great. If there's 21 not an ILS then don't bother. Wait it out. It's not worth it. Just wait. And that was something that I was really 22 23 particular because, again my own preference. I've been 24 in a situation when my younger -- in my younger -- in 25 another life, I want to say, you know, because in my NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 48 1 younger youth where, you know, I went down to MDA and I 2 scared myself. You know, all of a sudden I saw a tower 3 4 there that wasn't supposed to be there. 5 slightly off and I was like, no, okay, I'm not doing 6 this again. 7 MR. LAWRENCE: 8 MR. ADAMO: 9 And I was just Yes. So I did really, you know, try to impress upon the guys that if the weather -- you 10 don't have an ILS, you don't have a precision approach, 11 pick another destination or wait until the weather 12 comes up. 13 So while I was there I don't think two percent of 14 our approaches would have been situated like that that 15 I would have, you know, known about, no. MR. LAWRENCE: 16 Well, if that was your 17 preference and, you know, how did you impart that to 18 the rest of the pilots that -MR. ADAMO: 19 Well, during our indoc, if I 20 preferred, if I did the indoc for the training class, 21 you know, we talked about this stuff. 22 what you know, what I would prefer. 23 time, when I was there what I preferred was what I 24 preferred. And we told them You know, at the Again, doors closed, can't tell you. 25 And NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 49 1 was there such a -- I honestly don't -- I don't think I 2 ever 3 called me up 4 down to minimums, you know, and it was a little hairy. remember a situation where any of my pilots and said, hey, I just did an MDA approach I never got that kind of a phone call or was 5 6 there a situation where the pilot actually did 7 something like that and I found out about it later. 8 don't know. 9 two years. Maybe I was lucky. I I was only there for You know, I honestly want to say that it 10 would have been less than -- man, I don't -- like I 11 said, I don't think I remember ever hearing about that. 12 MR. LAWRENCE: 13 MR. ADAMO: Right. So I don't think anybody ever 14 did that. You know, most of the guys that were there 15 are experienced guys. 16 hold off or even hold until the weather got back up. They would elect not to go or MR. LAWRENCE: 17 All right. Okay. We talked 18 earlier about the captains flying most of these legs, 19 especially the ones with passengers -- 20 MR. ADAMO: Right. 21 MR. LAWRENCE: -- and first officers 22 typically -- and that was kind of a guidance, a general 23 guidance. 24 opinion, in your opinion only, but would a non- 25 precision approach down to minimums be one of those I'm curious, and this my be imparting your NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 50 1 circumstances that maybe the captain should be flying 2 versus the first officer? 3 good to fly that? MR. ADAMO: 4 Or would a first officer be Again, I would expect -- it's 5 all up to the situation. If I have two experienced 6 captains in that airplane, then either one of them 7 would have been able to do the flight. 8 like Rich Rivudo and Donny Shackelford, if they were 9 assigned on that flight, they're both certed captains 10 but one has to act as the SIC. 11 been able to do it. Again, somebody Either one would have If we're talking about new, young, 12 13 inexperienced first officers, then, yes, the captain 14 was to do the approach. 15 people. 16 minimums, then the captain should have been the one 17 that was doing the approach. Period. With or without Even an ILS, you know, if it was down to MR. LAWRENCE: 18 Okay. Just couple more, just 19 follow-up things here. 20 going to ask you a little bit about, just briefly, the 21 seatbelts. 22 customers were briefed and secure with their seatbelts? I'm Who was responsible for ensuring that the MR. ADAMO: 23 Bob, you're doing great. The captain, again, while I was 24 there, when I taught the indoc, the captain was 25 responsible. His responsibility was to brief the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 51 1 passengers, use the seatbelts and emergency procedures, 2 oxygen -- the passenger briefing, the entire thing. 3 MR. LAWRENCE: 4 MR. ADAMO: Okay. He could delegate it to his 5 first officer, but he had to make sure that the first 6 officer did it correctly and at least supervised it in 7 a manner where he could hear what's being said. 8 was up in the front doing something else, but 90 9 percent of the time I do, I want to say that the 10 captain was the one who 11 delegated to do it. If he was -- he was the one who was 12 MR. LAWRENCE: 13 MR. ADAMO: 14 MR. LAWRENCE: Got it. Just put it that way. For landing, how would the 15 pilots ensure that these guys, the passengers, had 16 their seatbelts on? MR. ADAMO: 17 18 know the seatbelts. The -- of course, you have to You were asking me to speculate. 19 MR. LAWRENCE: 20 MR. ADAMO: Right. And I don't know. If you're 21 asking me how -- what I would do, what I told them to 22 do was you have a seatbelt sign. 23 on. 24 seatbelts to be turned -- make sure that they're -- 25 tell them that they need to wear their seatbelts. Make sure it's turned Make sure you go on the PA and ask for the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 52 If there was an issue with the PA they were 1 2 required to turn around and, at very least, look back 3 and tell them, hey, make sure your seatbelts are on, 4 even if you've got to yell. 5 being done, I don't know. 6 MR. LAWRENCE: 7 MR. ADAMO: 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 Now what actually was Okay. I couldn't tell you. Well, there wasn't a process or procedure or guidance for the pilots to get out of 10 their seats, prior to landing, and go look and see and 11 verify that seatbelts are on? MR. ADAMO: 12 No. As a matter of fact, prior 13 to landing, they'd be, the pilot was not -- neither one 14 of them are allowed to get out of their seat. 15 MR. LAWRENCE: 16 MR. ADAMO: 17 final? Okay. We're talking about short -- Short final or approach? 18 MR. LAWRENCE: 19 MR. ADAMO: Well -- Actually, nothing below -- 20 critical phase of flight they weren't allowed to get 21 out of their seat -- 22 MR. LAWRENCE: 23 MR. ADAMO: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 Yes. -- unless it was an emergency. Okay. this topic, weight balance. Just a brief one on Where'd that process come NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 53 1 from? And who created the weight and balance process? 2 MR. ADAMO: I did -- well, the weight and 3 balance process was always there. 4 from day one. 5 And the way they were doing it prior to me getting 6 there was really erratic. It was a requirement It was just they were using Ultra Nav. They would print it out. 7 They would print 8 one document out and take it with them. Another 9 document would get left behind at an FBO kind of 10 situation. But there was no real set way. They were 11 kind of doing it any way they wanted to do it. So I came up with a way where it was a 12 13 little bit more centralized, you know, something that 14 we can get our hands on if we needed information. 15 know, the Ultra Nav software is a little bit, like, 16 what's the word, archaic? You It's an old system. There was better and newer systems out 17 18 there, but this is what they were approved for. And, 19 again, trying to get something approved or accepted 20 from South Florida FSDO was challenging, okay? 21 So I used what I had available to me, and so 22 I came up with this software, I mean, this email system 23 in this virtual cloud system because the virtual cloud 24 is accessible from anywhere on the planet as long as 25 you've got Internet access. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 54 The backup system to that was if they 1 2 couldn't access to the Ultra Nav then they had to use a 3 long form. 4 books and they were supposed to fax a copy to the 5 office. MR. LAWRENCE: 6 7 They had to, you know, pull out all the Yes. Were the passengers and baggage required to be weighed prior to every flight? MR. ADAMO: 8 Baggage, a hundred percent 9 because I'm still doing that today with this company. 10 But I believe our, ExecuFlight was stated weight plus 11 ten or actual weight. 12 but I want to say it's stated weight plus ten pounds or 13 actual weight meaning, you know, you asked the person 14 how much they weighed. So I would have to look at that, 15 If they said 150 and they looked like they 16 were 150, you added ten pounds to it and you accepted 17 that. 18 did Otherwise, if they didn't, you actually -- we carry a scale to actually weigh the individual. 19 MR. LAWRENCE: 20 MR. ADAMO: 21 MR. LAWRENCE: 22 MR. ADAMO: You did carry a scale? Yes. Yes. Okay. At least I did on my airplane. 23 I remember that for certain. And the ones that I 24 checked -- as DOM, yes, I sort of -- yeah, yeah, no. 25 Going back to my DOM days, every airplane had a scale NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 55 1 on it. MR. LAWRENCE: 2 3 Right. Are all you pilots trained over at CAE in Dallas? MR. ADAMO: 4 5 Westwind. 6 have a Westwind. Yes, except for me in the I was trained at SIMCOM because CAE does not MR. LAWRENCE: 7 Okay. The instructors that 8 train your crews at CAE in Dallas, do they use 9 ExecuFlight procedures? MR. ADAMO: 10 Yes. I actually went and did a 11 couple audits out there. I did an audit at SIMCOM and 12 we used, the ExecuFlight manuals were there. 13 reviewed it with them and did an audit. 14 fine. CAE, I went out there. 15 I think I did the G3. I SIMCOM was I don't think I did 16 the Hawker. 17 wasn't due yet. 18 it but then I had -- left. 19 You should be able to see that in the audit trail -- And I was going to go out there and do 20 MR. LAWRENCE: 21 MR. ADAMO: 22 I think the Hawker But don't hold me to that. All right. -- in the manuals -- I mean, on the AO31. MR. LAWRENCE: 23 Great. 24 your guys get their CRM training? 25 MR. ADAMO: CRM training, where'd That, when I was there, there NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 56 1 wasn't one. I implemented a CRM training and we did it 2 in-house. 3 CRM class. 4 Piccoli. 5 finally got it approved or accepted, and we used that. 6 And it was done during indoc. It was a boiler-plate from a flight safety And I had submitted that to Inspector Took me a little while to get it, but I 7 MR. ETCHER: I'm sorry, what was the last -- 8 MR. LAWRENCE: 9 MR. ETCHER: Indoc, okay. 10 MR. ADAMO: 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 Done during an indoc. I'm sorry? Say that again? Just to clarify, that was done during an indoc is what you said? 13 MR. ADAMO: 14 did the CRM training. 15 I have no clue as to what was done with them. Right. Was CRM training done during any recurrent cycle for the pilots? MR. ADAMO: 18 19 Again, these two guys out of -- MR. LAWRENCE: 16 17 During indocs that I taught we Yes, every indoc. Every recurrent, every 12 months. MR. LAWRENCE: 20 Okay. 21 That's the very beginning, right? 22 MR. ADAMO: Well, indoc is once. Then recurrent -- No, I look at indoc as -- even a 23 recurrent training is indoc. You still -- okay, if 24 that's the way you're looking at it, it's during every 25 12 months. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 57 1 MR. LAWRENCE: 2 MR. ADAMO: 3 Yes. Every recurrent training -- initial and recurrent. MR. LAWRENCE: 4 Okay. And then just a couple 5 of general and then I'll let a couple of other guys 6 have a chance to ask you a couple questions. 7 just generally describe ExecuFlight to somebody that 8 doesn't know about the company? How would you describe 9 the company? MR. ADAMO: 10 Can you Well, it's a 135 operation, a 11 small company with, you know, its own kind of charm to 12 it. 13 any way, but it is -- you know, it's an air taxi, 14 friendly people, outgoing. 15 you mean by describing ExecuFlight. 16 another pilot if I was trying to recruit them? It's not an airline in any means of the way, in 17 MR. LAWRENCE: 18 MR. ADAMO: You know, I'm not sure that You mean to Yes. Yes, okay. Yes. You know, it's 19 a good place, it's a nice place to work. There's 20 challenges, just like any other organization or any 21 other job based on personality conflicts. 22 different. No But it was, in no means, a hard place to 23 24 work at or there was no undue, there was no real -- I 25 don't want to say undue pressure, but there was NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 58 1 animosity towards anyone or any -- it wasn't, you know, 2 the kind of place where you were forced to do things or 3 not do things. 4 at. 5 individuals. You know, it wasn't a bad place to work It just, different other opinions between MR. LAWRENCE: 6 Got it. Do you recall how 7 many pilots you had under your control as DO when you 8 were there? MR. ADAMO: 9 10 Oh, man, I think at the height we were up to like 15 pilots. 11 MR. LAWRENCE: 12 MR. ADAMO: Okay. And then I know we started to, 13 we lost a few and then there were a few that left after 14 I left. 15 number. You know, I can't really remember the exact MR. LAWRENCE: 16 Yes. Does the company with, 17 you got, you know, six, seven aircraft with 15 pilots. 18 Would that be considered short-staffed? 19 MR. ADAMO: In the beginning, no, the 20 workload was not that extensive. 21 guys wouldn't get two, three days off a week. 22 get busy there for a little while where we did try to 23 recruit other pilots. 24 depended on time of the year. It was not like these We did And, yes, you know, it all And during the summertime, you know, from 25 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 59 1 March until, I want to say, until October, no, not at 2 all. 3 single day. 4 ground than in the air. 5 a little busy, then, yes. 6 know. Because the planes that weren't flying every There were more days that they were on the During the season where it got 7 MR. LAWRENCE: 8 MR. ADAMO: 9 But short-staffed? I don't Yes. I mean, I personally come from the school that -- and I know that the airlines think 10 of this differently, but, you know, you learn your 11 airplane. Like the Westwind was my airplane. 12 the only plane I really, really flew. 13 airplane inside and out. 14 hiccup, every little sound. That's I knew that I knew every intricacy, every 15 Everything that, you know, anything that 16 would have been abnormal about the airplane I would 17 have recognized right away. 18 (inaudible) on final and getting too slow, you know how 19 that air comes over your calling or over your 20 windshield, you hear that affect. You know, if it flew So, being said, you know, short-staffed, 21 22 yes, at certain times when, you know, the season got 23 busy. 24 you know, guys were overworked or anything like that. 25 I mean, if you just look at their time and duty sheets, But not to a point where it was stressful or, NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 60 1 that'll tell you exactly what everybody flew. MR. LAWRENCE: 2 Yes. 3 contract pilots? 4 - were employees of ExecuFlight? 5 MR. ADAMO: Did you have any Or were all 15 of these pilots your - Okay, I believe that we did have 6 a couple of contract pilots that were still trained in 7 our manuals and our courses and they were on only as 8 contract. I'm trying to think who they were. Well, you should be able to -- again, if you 9 10 went through the records, their books should be there 11 and you should be able to tell who they were. 12 was one gentleman, in particular -- God, I can't 13 remember his name. 14 on. (Phonetic) McKluen, McLean? Yeah, it's not coming up. 15 There Hold Let's see here -- 16 (phonetic) Ted McLelland. That's who is was. 17 McLelland, he was a contract guy, but he was not on 18 full-time. MR. LAWRENCE: 19 Okay. Ted Last question. I know 20 you said you did some observation rides on some of the 21 aircraft. 22 observation? 23 training event, but just line observations of your 24 crews? Do you ever see the FAA out there doing line Something that was not associated with a MR. ADAMO: 25 Did they ever get Ramp checked? NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 61 1 Yes. Did I personally observe it or did I hear about 2 it? 3 checks that took place down in south Miami. 4 was Tamiami was one or Opa Locka, and then a couple 5 other places. 6 standard Ramp checks kind of thing. 7 MR. LAWRENCE: I do not -- I did hear about a couple of Ramp I think it But they were standard, you know, just Yes, I'm more curious about 8 actual line observation, actually being in the aircraft 9 observing the crew during a line operation, not a Ramp 10 check. Do you recall hearing FAA do that? MR. ADAMO: 11 Okay, nothing -- no. As far as 12 I know, the FAA never came and did a line check that 13 was not part of like a 299. 14 that's one thing. 15 ever, like did (inaudible) every show up and say, hey, 16 you guys, I want to ride along with you and see how you 17 guys do? If he was doing a 299, But if you're telling me did the FAA That never happened to my knowledge. MR. LAWRENCE: 18 That's exactly what I was 19 looking -- okay, great. For now, Bob, that's all I 20 really have. 21 are you doing okay for a break? 22 We don't have much more. Let me see if Sean has any questions. 23 MR. ADAMO: 24 MR. LAWRENCE: 25 MR. ETCHER: Or are you still good? No, I'm good. Okay. Hey, Bob, good morning How are NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 Or COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 62 1 you? 2 MR. ADAMO: Good. 3 MR. ETCHER: 4 MR. ADAMO: 5 MR. ETCHER: Good. Can you hear me okay? Yes, doing good. All righty. Just a few 6 questions. 7 appreciate it. 8 you did an audit out there at CAE and checked their 9 manuals, things along that line. 10 You gave us a great rundown there. I just want to go back to when you said Do you remember when you did that audit? 11 MR. ADAMO: 12 MR. ETCHER: 13 I do I'm sorry. Say that again? Do you remember when you went out and did that audit? MR. ADAMO: 14 Now it would have been, the AO31 15 we didn't have an exact date but I remember flying 16 specifically out there, and I spent three days out 17 there to do the audit. 18 MR. ETCHER: 19 MR. ADAMO: Okay. Because I did, I observed a 20 classroom event, a Sim event and then reviewed their 21 manuals. 22 MR. ETCHER: 23 MR. ADAMO: Okay. All right. Actually, you know something, 24 now that you bring it up, I'm thinking about, I think 25 it might have an audit on the Hawker instead of the G3 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 63 1 because I remember we had an XP class. 2 XP at the time. 3 mean, I did two more audits this year for my company, 4 so I'm kind of getting a little fuzzy. You've got to look a the AO31. MR. ETCHER: 5 And we had an I understand. No, that's okay. 6 We can look that up. 7 out there doing the training, the crews, were any of 8 the approaches in the Sim below minimums so they had to 9 go missed approach? 10 When they were Or were all approaches known to break out? MR. ADAMO: 11 12 I appreciate it. I No, no. We had several that were, you had to go-around. 13 MR. ETCHER: 14 MR. ADAMO: Okay. Don't ask me if it was an ILS or 15 a precision or a non-precision approach, but I do 16 specifically remember getting down to -- you know, 17 watching the crews get down to DH or MDA and then 18 getting time expired in that event and going around. 19 But I know they did that. MR. ETCHER: 20 Okay. And doing those 21 approaches, specifically the non-precision approached, 22 I know you all said you didn't do them that often, what 23 was your guys' procedure? 24 flown? Hand-flown? Was there a procedure for that? MR. ADAMO: 25 Was it to be auto-pilot I believe, again, I believe it NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 64 1 was auto-pilot flown. It would descend to the MDA and 2 let the auto -- that's why, when you were, had me, when 3 you were talking about unstable, the auto-pilot only 4 descends at a certain rate unless you force it to. 5 I'm almost certain it was auto-pilot flown. MR. ETCHER: 6 Okay. But And just two more 7 questions. Was there any -- I know you were trying to 8 get SMS started here. 9 that the crews did or were required to do anything on Was there any risk assessment 10 that lines prior to the day? 11 that lines? MR. ADAMO: 12 Every flight? Anything on Well, you mean like a flat 360 13 or a flat gauge? Yes, that was probably the SMS. I 14 wanted to implement that too. 15 You know, they're supposed to -- I do one every morning 16 whenever I go for a flight and this is just one 17 operation. We do one every morning first flight of the 18 day or anytime that there's an adverse weather change 19 of any kind we're required to do it again. It just didn't happen. I didn't get that done, guys. 20 I just -- it 21 didn't -- it never materialized. 22 had a nice little iPad app for it but it just didn't 23 happen. MR. ETCHER: 24 25 Okay. I wanted to. All righty. I even And the very last question I have is if a crew got out to the NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 65 1 airplane, looked at the weather and they felt that it 2 was either below their comfort level or below what they 3 have as their personal minimums, what was their 4 procedure to make sure that the flight didn't go or 5 they could at least address their concerns and how 6 would that go? MR. ADAMO: 7 They just, they -- it was 8 totally up to them. Don't go. 9 permission to not do a flight. They never needed my They could simply just 10 call up Sales and say, look, the weather's below 11 minimum. 12 Pilot, weather's below minimum. We're not going. Or we could call up Chief We're not calling it. If they called me I would have said, it's 13 14 your call. You're there. 15 comfortable with. 16 MR. ETCHER: 17 MR. ADAMO: I'm not -- whatever you're Did that happen very often? No, like I said, I mean, you 18 know, while I was there there was never a situation 19 where my guys flew into minimum weather. 20 maybe a few times but I never, ever got a call saying, 21 oh, wow, we shot approached at mins today. 22 always, you know, we really -- I tried to emphasize on 23 these guys that it's not worth it. 24 go to another airport. MR. JAHR: 25 You know, It was Just wait it out or Hey, Bob, sorry to interrupt. NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 66 1 The question was whether the crew ever called you to 2 tell you they would not do a flight, that they were 3 canceling a flight because the weather was bad. 4 MR. ADAMO: Oh, I'm sorry. 5 say I got a couple calls that way. 6 MR. ETCHER: 7 appreciate it. hello, Bob. I Donnie? No, I'm fine. Just say How are you doing? MR. ADAMO: 10 All righty. That's all I have, thanks. MR. SHACKELFORD: 8 9 Okay. Again, I want to Good. You guys are kind of -- I 11 don't know if I can -- let me see if I can this up any 12 further. 13 mic? Any way you can get a little closer to the MR. ETCHER: 14 15 but he just -MR. SHACKLEFORD: 16 17 Yes, Donny's a little far away, good morning. Just said hello. MR. ETCHER: 18 Yes, I was just saying He had no questions. He was 19 just saying hi. 20 from the FAA, do you have any questions, John? MR. DRAGO: 21 22 Bob. I'll be brief. 23 24 Let me ask John Drago, on the phone, David, I just have a couple for Bob, can you hear me okay? MR. ADAMO: Yes. I can hear you loud and MR. DRAGO: Okay, I'm on a real phone here. clear. 25 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 67 1 Okay, so do you recall having a list of designated 2 instructors within ExecuFlight? MR. ADAMO: 3 4 on. No. Well, wait a minute. Hold Sim or company instructors? 5 MR. DRAGO: Company instructors. 6 MR. ADAMO: No, it was limited, actually, to 7 -- it was myself or the chief pilot that did most of 8 the indoc classes. MR. DRAGO: 9 Oh, okay. So do you recall if 10 they were designated in their duty assignments as being 11 company instructors? MR. ADAMO: 12 I believe I did have a letter in 13 their folders. I put a letter in my own folder and a 14 letter in Rich's folder. 15 the SIMCOM or just the CAE instructors were in the 16 training manual, yes. 17 there. MR. DRAGO: 18 And then, of course, we had There's a list of those guys Sure. Okay, with respect to the 19 chief pilot did you ever observe the chief giving 20 ground instruction for safety -- 21 MR. ADAMO: Yes, as a matter of fact, I did, 22 I specifically assigned him to do a class. I held in 23 indoc class, I want to say, in November of 2014 for 24 about six individuals that we were bringing onboard. 25 And I did the first couple of days and then I NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 68 1 specifically asked Rich to do the next couple of days 2 so that I could observe him giving ground training. MR. DRAGO: 3 4 What were your observations of that training? MR. ADAMO: 5 I didn't anything out of the 6 ordinary. 7 a question and answer type scenario, a lecture and then 8 question and answer. 9 concerned me if that's what you're asking. I didn't see anything that MR. DRAGO: 10 11 I mean, there were per in the GM and it was Let me clarify. So was that training satisfactory to you? 12 MR. ADAMO: Yes. 13 MR. DRAGO: Okay, thank you. Okay, and then 14 I have two questions regarding you were 15 Simuflite as your training partner. 16 pilots demonstrate or train to lowered and standard by 17 any minimum? MR. ADAMO: 18 19 weren't we? 20 it's 1,800 RBR. using Did you have your I think we were 1,500 RBR, I know that's -- no, I'm almost positive 21 MR. DRAGO: And so just a standard then? 22 MR. ADAMO: Yes, yes. 23 you know, yes, no. 24 ExecuFlight, yes. I think that's where we were at MR. DRAGO: 25 I don't remember -- Do you recall if you trained NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 69 1 circular approaches? 2 MR. ADAMO: Yes. 3 MR. DRAGO: Okay, and can you tell us -- and 4 forgive me if this is a repetition but can you describe 5 the -- I'm sorry, did you -- let me withdraw that 6 question. Next question is did you fly the Hawker at 7 8 all in the simulator? 9 MR. ADAMO: Not with ExecuFlight. 10 MR. DRAGO: Okay. Then I'm finished. 11 you very much. 13 I have no further questions. MR. LAWRENCE: 12 Thank Great. Anybody got anything else? 14 MR. ETCHER: No, I'm fine. 15 MR. LAWRENCE: Bob, thank you very much. I 16 really appreciate this. 17 considering that we are just simply a safety 18 investigation that's trying to find out what happened 19 so we can prevent it from happening again, anything 20 else you can think of that might assist us in that 21 endeavor or something that maybe we didn't ask that you 22 would like to add? MR. ADAMO: 23 Is there anything else, Well, you know, it's easy, 24 hindsight, you know, 20/20, right? You know, you can 25 sit back and say, well, we should have did this, we NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 70 1 should have did that. You know, I don't know these two 2 guys, particular guys, this training situation. 3 don't know what, since I never met, spoke or had a 4 chance to interview them personally, I don't know if I 5 could make any recommendations at this point. I I can tell you that the guys that I trained, 6 7 the guys that I worked with, again, being guys like 8 Donny and Rich and the guys that were there when I was 9 there, no. I mean, we really do try to instill safety 10 and, you know, weather's a big thing. 11 weather. 12 I just don't like weather. 13 peeves. I don't like You know, you can call me a jerk if you want, And that was one of my pet I always said, you know, guys, go do what 14 15 you have to do, but whatever you're not comfortable 16 with, you know, don't do it. 17 them to -- you know, we had our minimums. 18 everything that was laid out for us as far as the 19 manuals goes and the FAA and what we can and couldn't 20 do. Period. And I left it to We had But, you know, I never said this is it. 21 22 get to follow this. 23 comfortable with this and you want to notch it up a 24 little, a level or two, that's your call. 25 never, ever fault your or torture you about it. You know, if you're not And I will And NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 You COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 71 1 that's the position that, I think, was, you know, 2 pretty permanent throughout the company up to the point 3 when I left. 4 the way things went and how things were done. I just really don't know, after I left, MR. LAWRENCE: 5 All right, Bob. 6 very much. 7 of anything you want to add down the road, later on, 8 feel free to get a hold of us, okay? MR. ADAMO: 9 All right, thanks, Bob. Take care. (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 12 13 And if you think Sounds good. MR. LAWRENCE: 10 11 I appreciate your time. Thank you off the record at an undisclosed time.) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 72 C E R T I F I C A T E MATTER: Execuflight Hawker Accident Akron, OH, November 10, 2015 Accident No. CEN16MA036 Interview of Robert Adamo DATE: December 3, 2015 * IFSFCZ DFSUJGZ UIBU UIF BUUBDIFE USBOTDSJQUJPO PG QBHF 1 to 72 inclusive are to the best of my QSPGFTTJPOBM ability a true, accurate, and complete record of the above referenced proceedings as contained on the provided audio recording GVSUIFS UIBU * BN OFJUIFS DPVOTFM GPS OPS SFMBUFE UP OPS FNQMPZFE CZ BOZ PG UIF QBSUJFT UP UIJT BDUJPO JO XIJDI UIJT QSPDFFEJOH IBT UBLFO QMBDF BOE GVSUIFS UIBU * BN OPU GJOBODJBMMZ OPS PUIFSXJTF JOUFSFTUFE JO UIF PVUDPNF PG UIF BDUJPO. ----------------------- NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com