Memo Office of the City Manager TO: Mayor and City Council FROM: A. William Moss, City Manager DATE: April 20, 2016 SUBJECT: Independent Inquiry—Former Fire-Rescue Chief McInerny On October 21, 2015, the City Manager and members of City Council received a letter from IAFF Local 2174 regarding a “unanimous” vote of “no confidence” in then Fire-Rescue Chief Steve McInerny. It was understood that the City Manager would proceed to take appropriate action regarding the allegations contained in the letter. The usual first step to address such allegations is to proceed with an inquiry. The vagueness of the allegations in the letter made this challenging. Recognizing that an inquiry conducted by your City Manager and staff may not be appropriate, the firm of Henderson Franklin, Attorneys at Law, were engaged to undertake the independent external inquiry on behalf of the City Manager. Your City Manager determined that an independent external inquiry was the appropriate approach to determine the basis for the allegations in the letter and any subsequent course of action. The fact that the inquiry was initiated should not suggest that there is a reason to accept validity of the allegations. The purpose of the independent external inquiry was to determine if there was sufficient reason to proceed with an investigation as provided in Section 112.80 F.S., the Firefighters’ Bill of Rights. Attorney Vicki Sproat of the firm conducted the inquiry. Ms. Sproat interviewed many individuals. Nearly all interviews were recorded and subsequently transcribed for a written record. Former Fire-Rescue Chief McInerny was provided an opportunity to meet with Ms. Sproat and provide any information he may have relevant to the inquiry and statements provided by others. Such information could then be used to determine whether an investigation was warranted. McInerny and his legal counsel expressed a preference to deliver a written response to the compilation of written documents. It was agreed that he may respond in writing. Sufficient time was allowed for McInerny to review statements, research records, and then to provide a written response. As of this date, McInerny has not provided a response. His legal counsel, Attorney Robert Bates, did provide a responding memorandum. Ms. Sproat did not interview Mr. McInerny; however, she did speak to him by telephone on two occasions and the notes taken are included along with other documents compiled during this inquiry. Following several months of deliberation, and prior to the completion of the Inquiry, your City Manager exercised the right to end the at-will employment relationship with Mr. McInerny. Ethics above all else... Service to others before self... Quality in all that we do. Page 2 Consistent with an Employment Agreement between Steve McInerny and the City, he was paid severance equal to four months’ salary. This action to terminate the employment of Steve McInerny should not be interpreted as a disciplinary firing. That is not the reason the employment relationship was severed. The termination was not due to the aforementioned inquiry. Steve McInerny accomplished many positive things for the Naples Fire-Rescue Department and the citizens of Naples. The termination decision was made in recognition that his management style is no longer suitable in the present environment, considering the current department staff, the community at-large, and the transitions that will likely occur in the fire-rescue service over the relatively near-term. The inquiry was concluded without a determination as to whether there was sufficient reason to proceed with an investigation as provided in the Firefighters’ Bill of Rights, Section 112.80 F.S. Such determination was not necessary, as the question is moot due to the fact the employment relationship was severed and the termination was pursuant to the at will provisions (Sections I and II B) of the terms and conditions of the Employment Agreement. Please recognize that this inquiry was a process that was set in motion for the singular purpose of gathering information to determine if an investigation should be undertaken. An investigation, if subsequently conducted, would assist in determining if disciplinary action was warranted. There was no investigation or conclusion to decide the facts and truth of allegations made in the Union’s letter and statements made during the subsequent inquiry. The inquiry has been concluded and the associated records have been compiled as public records. These records include audio files of interviews, unofficial transcripts from these audio files, and other documents. The records have been received and stored in electronic format and are too large to e-mail. The electronic records of the inquiry have been downloaded to the city computer in the Sunshine Room for viewing by City Council. The documents indicated below are provided with this memorandum. As an employer of over 400 individuals, the City recognizes that employment litigation is burdensome, costly, and time-consuming. In an effort to minimize risk, no further statements on this matter are authorized by the City Manager. Attachments: IAFF Local 2174 Letter of October 21, 2015 Firefighters’ Bill of Rights, Section 112.80 F.S. Employment Agreement – City of Naples and Stephen McInerny Letter from Attorney Vicki Sproat, April 18, 2016 Letter from Attorney Vicki Sproat, April 19, 2016 Notes of telephone conversation – Attorney Vicki Sproat and Stephen McInerrny Responding memorandum from Attorney Robert Bates representing Stephen McInerny Unofficial transcripts of interviews conducted pursuant to this inquiry Ethics above all else... Service to others before self... Quality in all that we do. lof2 Professional Fire?ghters of Naples Local 21 74 October 21, 2015 Mr. Moss I have been directed by the membership of the Professional Fire?ghters of Naples, Local 2174, IAFF to advise you of a vote on a motion of no con?dence conducted by the City?s ?re?ghters with respect to the continued tenure of Chief McInerny. Be advised that, at our meetings on October 13, 2015 and October 19, 2015, a motion of no con?dence in Chief McInerny continuing to hold the position of Fire Chief was passed by unanimous vote. The motion carried only after serious and deliberation by members of the Local, all of whom are employees of the City of Naples Fire Department; the motion was made for the express purpose of improving the lot of employees, the Department and the community in general. In summary, it is the membership?s position that Chief McInerny has created a poor working environment, and has shown both a lack of leadership and an inability to make sound decisions on matters affecting the community. Among the many matters giving rise to this motion, and relied upon in discussion with respect to the motion, were the following: 1. The Chief has misled the community and City staff. In particular, he has created the misimpression of need Where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities. 2. The Department?s integrity is in question due to the Chief? misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to ?re calls, damage, and intensity. 3. The Chiefs misrepresentations, exaggerations and outright mendacity have created a lack of trust between the Chief and the City?s ?re-rescue personnel. As a result, the Chief has lost the ability to effectively lead the City?s ?re?ghters. 20f2 4. The Chief has attempted to in?uence and otherwise cause the Union to undermine some City objectives. For these, and many other matters of deep concern to the membership, the City?s ?re?ghters respectfully request that the City take action consistent with the unanimous vote of no con?dence in Chief McInerny?s continuing to hold the position of Fire ief. eetfully submitted, I 4? President Wresident PART VIII FIREFIGHTERS 112.80 Short title. 112.81 Definitions. 112.82 Rights of firefighters. 112.83 Rights of firefighters with respect to civil suits. 112.84 Rights of firefighters nonexclusive. 112.80 Short title.—This part may be cited as the “Firefighters’ Bill of Rights.” History.—s. 1, ch. 86-6. 112.81 Definitions.—As used in this part: (1) “Firefighter” means a person who is certified in compliance with s. 633.408 and who is employed solely within the fire department or public safety department of an employing agency as a full-time firefighter whose primary responsibility is the prevention and extinguishment of fires; the protection of life and property; and the enforcement of municipal, county, and state fire prevention codes and laws pertaining to the prevention and control of fires. (2) “Employing agency” means any municipality or the state or any political subdivision thereof, including authorities and special districts, which employs firefighters. (3) “Informal inquiry” means a meeting by supervisory or management personnel with a firefighter about whom an allegation of misconduct has come to the attention of such supervisory or management personnel, the purpose of which meeting is to mediate a complaint or discuss the facts to determine whether a formal investigation should be commenced. (4) “Formal investigation” means the process of investigation ordered by supervisory personnel, after the supervisory personnel have previously determined that the firefighter shall be reprimanded, suspended, or removed, during which the questioning of a firefighter is conducted for the purpose of gathering evidence of misconduct. (5) “Administrative proceeding” means any nonjudicial hearing which may result in the recommendation, approval, or order of disciplinary action against, or suspension or discharge of, a firefighter. (6) “Interrogation” means the questioning of a firefighter by an employing agency in connection with a formal investigation or an administrative proceeding but shall not include arbitration or civil service proceedings. Questioning pursuant to an informal inquiry shall not be deemed to be an interrogation. History.—s. 1, ch. 86-6; s. 118, ch. 2013-183. 112.82 Rights of firefighters.—Whenever a firefighter is subjected to an interrogation, such interrogation shall be conducted pursuant to the terms of this section. (1) The interrogation shall take place at the facility where the investigating officer is assigned, or at the facility which has jurisdiction over the place where the incident under investigation allegedly occurred, as designated by the investigating officer. (2) No firefighter shall be subjected to interrogation without first receiving written notice of sufficient detail of the investigation in order to reasonably apprise the firefighter of the nature of the investigation. The firefighter shall be informed beforehand of the names of all complainants. (3) All interrogations shall be conducted at a reasonable time of day, preferably when the firefighter is on duty, unless the importance of the interrogation or investigation is of such a nature that immediate action is required. (4) The firefighter under investigation shall be informed of the name, rank, and unit or command of the officer in charge of the investigation, the interrogators, and all persons present during any interrogation. (5) Interrogation sessions shall be of reasonable duration and the firefighter shall be permitted reasonable periods for rest and personal necessities. (6) The firefighter being interrogated shall not be subjected to offensive language or offered any incentive as an inducement to answer any questions. (7) A complete record of any interrogation shall be made, and if a transcript of such interrogation is made, the firefighter under investigation shall be entitled to a copy without charge. Such record may be electronically recorded. (8) An employee or officer of an employing agency may represent the agency, and an employee organization may represent any member of a bargaining unit desiring such representation in any proceeding to which this part applies. If a collective bargaining agreement provides for the presence of a representative of the collective bargaining unit during investigations or interrogations, such representative shall be allowed to be present. (9) No firefighter shall be discharged, disciplined, demoted, denied promotion or seniority, transferred, reassigned, or otherwise disciplined or discriminated against in regard to his or her employment, or be threatened with any such treatment as retaliation for or by reason solely of his or her exercise of any of the rights granted or protected by this part. History.—s. 1, ch. 86-6. 112.83 Rights of firefighters with respect to civil suits.—If an agency employing firefighters fails to comply with the requirements of this part, a firefighter employed by such agency who is personally injured by such failure to comply may apply directly to the circuit court of the county wherein such employing agency is headquartered and permanently resides for an injunction to restrain and enjoin such violation of the provisions of this part and to complete the performance of the duties imposed by this part. History.—s. 1, ch. 86-6. 112.84 Rights of firefighters nonexclusive.— (1) The rights of firefighters as set forth in this part shall not be construed to diminish the rights and privileges of firefighters that are guaranteed to all citizens by the Constitution and laws of the United States and of this state or limit the granting of broader rights by other law, ordinance, or rule. These rights include the right to bring suit against any individual, group of persons, association, organization, or corporation for damages, either monetary or otherwise, suffered during the performance of the firefighter’s official duties or for abridgment of the firefighter’s rights, civil or otherwise, arising out of the performance of his or her official duties. (2) This part is neither designed to abridge nor expand the rights of firefighters to bring civil suits for injuries suffered in the course of their employment as recognized by the courts, nor is it designed to abrogate any common-law or statutory limitation on the rights of recovery. History.—s. 1, ch. 86-6. EMPLOYMENT AGREEMENT 1 THIS AGREEMENT, made and entered into this A day of June, 2009, by and between the City of Naples, a municipal corporation, hereinafter called "Employer", as party of the first part, and Stephen Mclnemy, hereinafter called "Employee", as party of the second part, both of whom understand as follows: WHEREAS, the City Charter establishes the Council-Manager form of government for the City of Naples; and WHEREAS, the Charter authorizes the City Manager to hire and secure the professional services necessary for the ful?llment of policies and directives of the City Council; and WHEREAS, it is the desire of the City Manager to secure professional services to assist him in the management of the business and various departmental affairs of the City Government; and WHEREAS, the City Manager has deemed it in the best interest of the City to provide employment agreements to certain Department Directors and other management positions of the City in order to establish certain conditions of employment to set working conditions of said employee; and WHERAS, Stephen Mclnemy desires to be employed as the Fire Chief in the Department of Police and Fire Services by the City Manager of Naples and agrees that an employment agreement is bene?cial because it establishes conditions of employment. NOW THEREFORE, in consideration of the mutual covenants and understandings set forth herein, the parties hereto agree as follows: SECTION 1 TERM A. The Employees rves at the pleasure of the City Manager and nothing herein shall aken to imply or suggest a guaranteed tenure or specific term of employment. B. Nothing in this Agreement shall prevent, limit or otherwise interfere with the right of the Employee to resign at any time from the position with the Employer. However, Employee shall provide the City Manager with at least one (1) month prior written notice of resignation, unless waived by the City Manager. The Employee shall be paid through his last day of employment. The City Manager, at his election, may shorten the time period of the Employee's employment and pay in lump sum the difference between the last day worked and the one month notice period. If the Employee a) voluntarily elects to leave prior to the one month period, for whatever reason, he shall be paid up to the last day of employment. SECTION II TERMINATION A. The City Manager shall have the right to terminate the Employee at any time for criminal action, malfeasance, gross negligence, or other serious infractions of the City's Personnel Policies and Procedures that would prevent Employee from being effective in his position. The City Manager shall also have the right to terminate the Employee if the Employee is unable to perform Employee's duties because of illnesses, accident, injury, mental incapacity, or any other disabling condition in excess of twelve (12) successive weeks unless othenrvise provided for by law. B. In the event the employment of the Employee is terminated by the City Manager for reasons other than as stated in paragraph A above, four (4) calendar months' notice shall be given by the City Manager to the Employee. The City shall have the right to pay to Employee a lump sum cash payment equal to four (4) months' salary, less Federal and State withholding. Employee shall also be compensated for all earned personal leave calculated at the rate of pay in effect upon termination. SECTION SALARY AND BENEFITS A. Salary: Employer agrees to compensate Employee for services rendered as the Fire Chief at an annual base salary of $113,000, payable in installments at the same time as other employees of the City are paid. Said compensation is subject to review and adjustment, if deemed appropriate by the Director of Police and Fire Services and the City Manager, on an annual? basis. B. Personal Leave? The Employee shall participate in the Personal Leave Program. All leave time is accrued on a basis when the Employee is on paid status. Personal leave accruals will be twenty-?ve (25) days annually. Employee will receive one (1) additional day at the onset of each employment year up to thirty-two (32) days annually. Employee will then receive one (1) additional day at the onset of the 10th year of employment, and an additional day at the onset of the 15th year of employment to a maximum of thirty-four (34) days annually. On an annual basis and in accordance with current City policy, Employee may elect to cash in up to a maximum of eighty (80) hours of the personal leave balance, to be paid at the Employee's current hourly rate, subject to applicable payroll taxes. C. Health, Dental, and Vision Insurance. Employer agrees to provide to the Employee and eligible dependents the health, dental, and vision insurance :3 at the same cost paid by department directors. Such costs and employee contributions are subject to change annually. D. Life Insurance, LTD, The City shall pay the premium charged for participation in the City's group life insurance program. Term life insurance coverage shall be in an amount equal to two times the Employee's annual salary, rounded up to the next highest $1,000 to the maximum allowed by the provider. Additional coverage, if available, may be purchased at the Employee's expense. The City will provide long-term disability (LTD) and Accidental Death Dismemberment at no cost to Employee in accordance with plan design as allowed by provider. E. Retirement Contributions. Employee may choose to participate in the City's General Pension Plan or one of the following 401a retirement plans: the International City Management Association (ICMA) Retirement System, Nationwide (NATIONWIDE) Retirement Solutions, the Variable Annuity Life Insurance Company (VALIC) Retirement System. The City's contribution to the ICMA, NATIONWIDE, or Retirement System shall be seven percent of base salary, and the Employee's contribution will be three percent of base salary on a pre-tax basis. If Employee selects the General Pension Plan, the Employee shall contribute two percent of base salary or an amount as determined by City Ordinance. Contributions shall be on a pre-tax basis. City match will vary. F. Supplemental Retirement. Employee is eligible to participate in the supplemental retirement plan and will be required to contribute three percent of pay and the City will match with two percent of pay. Vesting in the City contribution portion will be according to the following schedule: 0 Twenty-?ve percent after one (1) year of plan membership 0 Fifty percent after two (2) years of plan membership 0 One hundred percent (100%) after three (3) years of plan membership G. Other Bene?ts. The City may provide other bene?ts, not speci?cally listed herein, to Employee on the same basis as those provided to other Non- Bargaining employees, or as determined by the City Manager. SECTION IV AUTOMOBILE AND CELLULAR PHONE A. Employer shall provide a vehicle for use by the Employee, twenty-four (24) hours per day, in order to perform duties for emergency response. The a Employer shall be responsible for fuel, maintenance, and insurance. Any use of said vehicle other than for business purposes may be authorized as deemed appropriate by the City Manager. B. The Employer shall provide a cellular telephone or a cellular telephone allowance in the amount of $40 per month or as amended by Employer, Employer may reimburse Employee for costs associated with excessive phone usage that may result during periods of public emergencies, such as hurricane preparedness and response. SECTION OVERTIME A. Employee understands that the position is exempt for the paymeht of overtime under the provisions of the Fair Labor Standards Act. SECTION VI DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES AND PERFORMANCE EXPECTATIONS A. The Employee shall undertake and carry out the duties, responsibilities, and requirements of his position as more fully set forth in Attachment 1 appended to this Agreement and incorporated by reference herein. B. The Employee shall provide professional services, as determined by the Director of Police and Fire Services and as assigned to the Fire Chief at the discretion of the Director of Police and Fire Services or the City Manager. Employee shall be expected to perform all services in accordance with applicable City policies and procedures and regulations; including, but not limited to those published in the City of Naples Code or Ordinances, Florida State Statutes and standard operating procedures. This section shall include adherence to the City of Naples Ethics Ordinance No. 98-8304 which outlines speci?c provisions of appropriate behavior and includes Section 3.F "Post Employment Restrictions" in effect as of 1/1/2000. SECTION VII COMMENCEMENT OF EMPLOYMENT A. Employment under the terms of this Agreement shall commence on July i3, . 2009, unless otherwise agreed by each party. f/ .r .1, SECTION GENERAL PROVISIONS A. All provision of law, and regulations and rules of the City and other fringe benefits and working conditions as they now exist, or hereafter may be amended, shall also apply to the Employee as they do to other employees of the City in addition to said bene?ts enumerated herein specifically for the bene?t of the Employee. l? 7 1 3 B. The text herein shall constitute the entire Agreement between the parties. C. This Agreement shall become effective upon execution by the City Manager and execution by Employee. WITNESSES: CITY OF NAPLES: Witne Sign Name A. Wiliiam Moss, City Manager .r Witnes?? Sign Name ?Employee 2/ i 1715 Monroe Street ?To RN ?5 AT LAW Post Office Box 280 'Fort Myers, FL 33902-0280 Tel: 239.344.1100- Fox: 239.344.1200- Bonito Springs - Sonibel Henderson Reply to Vicki L. Sproat Board Certi?ed Civil Trial Lawyer Board Certi?ed Labor 8. Employment Trial Lawyer Direct Fax Number 239.344.1530 Direct Dial Number 239.344.1230 E-Mail: April 18, 2016 VIA ELECTRONIC MAIL A. William Moss, City Manager City of Naples City Hall 735 Eighth Street South Naples, FL 34102 Re: Inquiry Naples Fire Department Dear Mr. Moss: As you know, I was retained by the City of Naples to conduct an inquiry into the allegations made by IAFF Local 2174 in its October 21, 2015 letter to the City. Per your instructions, I discontinued the inquiry on March 15, 2016, prior to having reached any conclusions as to whether there was sufficient reason to proceed with a formal investigation. Today you asked that send you documents related to the inquiry. Per your request, I will deposit files consisting of the audio tapes of my interviews and the corresponding unofficial written transcripts with exhibits into the designated Dropbox tomorrow morning. I will send you an e-mail when all of the documents have been uploaded. Please let me know if you have any questions or need further information. We appreciate the opportunity to perform work for the City of Naples. Very yours, Vicki L. Sproat VLS/lds Henderson, Franklin, Starnes Holt, P.A. i 1715 Monroe Street EYS AT LAW Post Office Box 280 -Forl Myers, FL 33902-0280 Tel: 239.344.1 100- Fax: 239.344.1200- Bonita Springs - Sonibel Henderson Reply to Vicki L. Sproal Board Certified Civil Trial Lawyer Board Certified Labor Employment Trial Lawyer Direct Fax Number 239.344.1530 Direct Dial Number 239.344.1230 E-Mail: vicki.sproat@henlaw.com April 19,2016 VIA ELECTRONIC MAIL A. William Moss, City Manager City of Naples City Hall 735 Eighth Street South Naples, FL 34102 Re: inquiry - Naples Fire Department Dear Mr. Moss: My office is in the process of depositing files related to the Inquiry into your designated Dropbox. As indicated in my letter of April 18, 2016, the files consist of the audio tapes of my interviews and the corresponding unofficial written transcripts with exhibits. I will also be depositing in the DrOpbox the attached notes which summarize my phone conversations with Chief Mclnerny on November 6, 2015 and November 8, 2015. These phone conversations took place before i began formal interviews. The phone conversations were not recorded. 1 called Chief Mclnerny to introduce myself and explain the protocol I intended to follow in conducting the Inquiry. i told him i would not be formally interviewing him until later in the process, but that he could give me some basic information that he thought was important to the issues raised in the Union?s letter to the City dated October 21, 2015. i did not consider the phone conversations to be an official interview. As you know, Chief Mclnerny declined my later requests for a formal recorded interview. I did not initially intend to include the phone notes as a part of the Inquiry documents. However, after reading the April 14, 2016 memorandum submitted by Mr. Bates, I thought it would be helpful to include them. Please let me know if you have any questions or need further information. VerVu?ly yours, Vicki L. Sproat VLS/lds Enclosure cc: Robert J. Bates, Esq. (w/encl. via e-mail) Henderson, Franklin, Starnes Holt, P.A. SUMMARY OF PHONE CONFERENCES WITH CHIEF STEPHEN MCINERNY 11-6-15 AND 11-8-15 I called Chief McInerny to introduce myself and explain the protocol I was following in conducting the Inquiry. I told him I would not be formally interviewing him until later in the process, but that he could give me some basic information that he thought was important as I begin the interviews and to the issues raised and the letter to Moss dated October 21, 2015.  Chief thinks I will want to talk to Tina Bowling. She works in fire prevention and takes care of public education. She is being groomed to be the statistician. She previously worked for the Naples Police Department. She has law enforcement background in a forensic accounting degree. She recently went to an academy to learn more about statistics. Bowling is very familiar with NIFRS requirements. She is the one who publishes data on the website. She may have information related to fire data.  Chief thinks I will probably also want to interview the Fire Marshall, Bob Rogers. He is the person that determines the dollar loss from severe fires and reports to the National Fire Protection Agency. He follows up on every fire and assigns the final number.  Battalion Chief, Mike Nichols, prepares the data sent to NIFRS. David Howard and Steven Kofsky work under Nichols and also assists in preparing the data. The data is gathered at the end of the month and bundled and sent to the Fire Marshall. There are very specific parameters on how data is reported.  The data is also prepared quarterly and annually and given to Bill Moss and presented to City Council. Bowling is involved in putting the data into colorful drafts. She knows the CAD system from her time with the Naples Police Department.  The Chief recommends that I talk to Dave Lykins. He is the current Director of the Community Services Facility and Facility Repair for the City of Naples. (He is not an NFD employee.) I will need to talk to him soon because he is leaving in December. Lykins will be able to tell me about the City’s retention of an architect consultant, Dallas Dooney, in 2010. Dooney did a study on Fire Station 1 and determined it was too expensive to repair. Counsel agreed that with plans to build new headquarters(?).  After Dooney, the City hired another architectural consultant, A.D. Morgan. Lykins worked with Morgan in looking at all Naples’ facilities. They produced a thick report. In the report, Morgan said that Fire Station 1 needed to be bulldozed. The Chief said that Council voted last week to take the money that had been set aside in the budget and postpone the replacement of Fire Station 1 for two years. The Chief suggested that I will want to look at the Morgan report, the Dooney report in addition to PSSi. These reports were also furnished to PSSi.  The Chief also discussed Fire Station 3 which is owned by the airport. In a study conducted three years ago, it was determined that Fire Station 3 did not meet current codes and needed to be demolished. This was in the report completed by Dooney. 1  As to the issue of apparatus needs, Chief thinks I should talk to the Fleet Services Divisions of Utilities Director, Bob Middleton. Underneath him is a person named Buddy Bennett. Under Bennett is Randy Bills, who runs the garage. Chief said that when the fire department purchases new trucks, it is based on a formula developed by Fleet Services. The formula is referred to as FAST. It looks at the age, mileage, hours and repair history of vehicles and determines when vehicles should be replaced. They make the initial recommendation. The fire department then determines what should be purchased and it goes out to bid. Those numbers are plugged into CIP, which needs City Council approval. City Council approves it again before it is purchased. The same process is followed for acquisition of equipment.  The Chief said that he was told that Marvin Easton wrote the October 21, 2015 letter. The letter was transmitted by Nadelman to City Council and Moss at 5:15 a.m. on October 21, 2015.  Later that evening, there was a meeting in Collier County with Union officials from throughout the County (not just NFD) to discuss merging or consolidation of the Union. The issue of the Union’s letter came up at that meeting and was questioned by other Union officials from other departments (or so the Chief has been told). The Chief spoke with Eloy Ricardo, the Fire Marshall for another district. Ricardo thought the letter was a bad idea.  The Chief believes that Jamie Cunningham, the Battalion Chief from the North Collier Fire Rescue Division, was also at the Union meeting. In that department, the Battalion Chief is a part of the Union. Cunningham is currently the Acting Operating Chief or second in command of that department. He questioned Nadelman about the letter. Nadelman apparently told Cunningham that the Union was working hand in hand with Easton. Cunningham told the Chief that the Union was working with Easton to remove the Chief.  The Chief also wanted to give me his background on something that he thinks Nadelman will say. He thinks Nadelman will say that the Chief told NFD to “let buildings burn.” He thinks that this comes out of a fire incident that occurred in Aqua Lane subdivision on June 22, 2015. It was a massive fire in a mansion that resulted in a $2.5$3 million dollar loss. The fire department could not save it. The ceiling tiles were falling in. The ceiling tiles hit one firefighter, resulting in a shoulder injury. The firefighter is still out on work comp. The NFD could not get help to the scene. Ultimately, the Chief, who was at the fire, told NFD to back out because firefighters were being hurt. The Chief was also hurt in the fire. He had a retina tear resulting in three surgeries. The Chief believes that PSSi looked at the documentation from this fire.  After the Aqua Lane fire, the Chief talked to each of the Battalion Chiefs separately, which was witnessed by Rogers. He told each of the Battalion Chiefs that he wasn’t casting any blame, but he thought that NFD needed to pull the plug sooner, rather than later, and move from an offensive to defensive strategy and there were not enough resources. The Chief never spoke to the rank and file about this. 2  The Chief thinks that the primary motivation behind October 21, 2015 letter is his decision to hire Phil Pennington as the new Battalion Chief in charge of training. Pennington replaced Bill Moyer who left NFD in June 2015. Pennington started on the job around September 28, 2015.  Moyer was also hired by the Chief from the outside as opposed to be hired from within. Moyer left to hike the Appalachian Trail. The Chief thinks that others in the department basically ran him out. He was trying to revamp the NFD training and there was resistance. Moyer was still working for NFD when PSSi was completing their study, so he was interviewed. The two previous Battalion Chiefs in charge of training were Tom Terella(sp?) and Mark St. Angelo. These two were promotions from the inside.  The Chief said he looked at Chapter 7 of the PSSi report in determining the best person for the Battalion Chief over the training division. He wanted someone with a strong paramedic background. Pennington was very qualified. He was topnotch with a medical background and worked in the busiest firehouse (Engine 8 in Ft. Lauderdale).  The Chief sent a memo to all members of the NFD stating he was looking to fill the Battalion Chief position and asked for resumes. NFD personnel were given two to three weeks to submit a resume and information.  There were four members of NFD that applied for the position: (1) Steve Kofsky is a firefighter (driver engineer) with no paramedic skills; (2) Lt. Jerry Pecar is a lieutenant paramedic with no degree; (3) Corey Adamski is a young lieutenant with an Associates or BS degree; and (4) Daniel Zunzunegui has been a lieutenant for five years. He is a paramedic. The Chief did not interview the four internal candidates. However, he did discuss the hire before the offer was made.  During the hiring period, the Chief explained to Lt. M. Moore, Chris Clissold and Nadelman who asked about the promotion process before the decision was made. The Chief told him that as far as internal candidates, he was leaning towards Pecar, but he was concerned because Pecar did not have an extensive paramedic background. He told them that he was taking into account the recommendation of PSSi in Chapter 7.  Before the offer was made, around the middle of September, Nadelman came to see the Chief and suggested that the Chief just promote him to the Battalion Chief position. The Chief told him that the process was closed and that he never applied.  The Chief thinks he made the offer to Pennington on September 13, 2015. The Chief thinks that Pennington is doing a good job. However, he did recently have a small run-in with Adamski and Nadelman.  The Chief reminded me that PSSi reported outstanding labor relations. PSSi met with most of the rank and file. They went to each fire station and met with the firefighters, excluding the Battalion Chiefs and Chief. He thinks that PSSi met with Nadelman two to three times. 3  The Chief also wanted me to know that Finlay had recently been communicating with the City Manager and paid a visit to Firehouse #1, which is reflected in a report that Zunzunegui prepared.  The Chief has reviewed former Battalion Chief Vogel’s letter to City Manager, Moss. The Chief described Vogel as a responsible, but angry man. He left the department in October 2012. The Chief encouraged him to stay.  The Chief started at NFD in August 2009. In his office was a map of hydrant locations. Soon after he arrived, the Chief decided to check the water pressure in the hydrants. He learned that some of the hydrants were barely flowing. This caused him to wonder how ISO (Insurance Services Organization), an independent analysis and risk assessment firm for the insurance industry could have rated Naples as a “2” on a scale of 1 to 10. (“1” is the best with “10” being the worse.) The last ISO rating was done around 2010.  The Chief questioned Vogel, Nichols and DiMaria on the ISO rating. Vogel and DiMaria told him that when ISO did the last investigation, NFD borrowed equipment and put it on the trucks. They also added staffing to the truck. After the ISO visit, the records relating to augmenting the equipment and staff for the investigation were burned. The Chief thinks this last ISO inspection occurred sometime between 1992 and 1994. Vogel and DiMaria told him that ISO initially assigned a “3” rating, but re-ranked it as a “2” after the follow-up investigation.  In late 2009, ISO called the Chief. They wanted to do another investigation. The Chief explained that NFD cannot initiate an ISO investigation. NFD called ISO as a courtesy. The Chief told ISO that the department was not ready for an ISO investigation. He wanted to work on improving some problems. He asked ISO to postpone the ISO investigation for three budget cycles.  The Chief spoke to Moss who authorized NFD to hire a consultant to help NFD prepare for the ISO inspection. The consultant was Robby Robertson (a former employee of ISO). Robertson did a report and suggested changes.  After the report was completed, the Chief went to St. Augustine to meet with the Southeast Director for ISO. ISO did their investigations sometime early in 2013. The ISO investigator was Mike Morash. The Chief assigned Tim Brunner from NFD to be the representative for the ISO inspection. The ISO inspector was there for several days. NFD was fortunate that Morash attested that the random hydrants that Morash selected for testing, were good ones. The ISO initially rated NFD as “3”. However, the Chief went back to ISO and was able to get the rating increased to a “2.” PSSi looked at the records relating to the ISO investigation.  The Chief addressed the “delay” issue raised in Vogel’s letter. The Chief explains that when NFD reports to a structural fire, the first benchmark reported via dispatch is “establishing command.” This is when NFD arrives on the scene and begins to outline strategies. The next benchmark to be dispatched is “fire knocked down.” The next 4 benchmark is “fire under control.” The Chief said the next benchmark “fire out” should not be given until NFD is signaling to leave the scene. It means that NFD is packing up and that the hazard has been stopped. This is the accurate way to report a fire. It is the Battalion Chief that reports the various benchmarks on dispatch. When the Chief arrived, NFD was not properly reporting dispatch information under the national standard benchmarks. This was an issue he addressed in 2010, 2011 and 2012.  The Chief also discussed NIFRS data. (This is improperly referred to in Vogel’s report as FFIR data.) NIFRS is a federal program run by the National Fire Academy. NFD is required to report data monthly. The NIFRS data is based on incident responses. Every response must be entered into the system. It is important that the data be recorded accurately. There was some resistance among some members of NFD to properly report incident responses because it requires more work if the incident is reported as a “fire” in the system. For instance, if NFD responded to a trashcan fire, it should still be reported as a “fire,” not a “smoke scare.” The Chief observed that some of the narratives reported what should have been characterized as fires, but instead was characterized as smoke scares.  When the Chief arrived, the NFD used a record management system known as VisionAir. Recently, NFD has gone to a better record management system known as Image Trend. (The switch was made in May 2014.) Image Trend is a better record management system and is used by other departments at the City. It allows NFD to also record medical calls.  From the beginning of his employment at NFD, the Chief had meetings with the Battalion Chiefs discussing the need to better record incidents. The information reported on incident reports is inputted by the Company Officer responding to the incident upon his or her return to the firehouse. It is the Company Officer that categorizes the incident. The Battalion Chief then reviews the incident reports. The Chief reviews daily reports. If there is something that he questioned (for example, a discrepancy between what is reported in the narrative and the way an incident was reported) he might ask the Battalion Chief to review it. The incident reports then go to Battalion Chief Nichols. He looks for missing fields. He is the one who submits the monthly data. He is also the one who does the quarterly reports for Moss. The Chief is not involved in reporting NIFRS data. It is NIFRS that makes the rules as to how things should be reported.  When PSSi was retained to prepare the Master Plan, the Chief put together graphs and charts on incident responses going back to 2006. The graphs and charts were given to PSSi. The Chief suggests that I talk to Perez about setting up a Dropbox where he can send the data to me.  The Chief confirmed that when he came to Naples in 2009, it was probably the lowest time in the economy. There were less people in Naples. When the economy started picking up, there were more people and more incidents. This is one reason for the increase in incident response. Another reason is that statistics were not being reported accurately. 5  The Chief said I may want to talk to a Naples’ citizen, Greg (?). He was a nuclear fire consultant. He writes editorials.  The Chief said he has never used NIFRS to get better equipment or apparatus.  The Chief stated that since he came to Naples, he began programs to commend officers. For instance, DiMaria, Nadelman and Clissold are going to be getting a distinguish public service awards.  The Chief estimates that he has done at least 18 promotions from within since he took over. Among others, he has promoted Nadelman and Clissold. 6 MEMORANDUM DATE: April 14, 2016 TO: A. William Moss, City Manager/City of Naples FROM: Robert J. Bates, Esquire SUBJECT: Investigator Vicki Sproat Behavior and Inquiry Response The following is the response to the maliciously contrived and defamatory statements engineered to appear as an investigation by the Naples City Administration and Elected Officials. Simply stated, Naples created a defamatory legacy and now seeks to burden the victim with cleaning it up. Well the effects are incapable of being cleaned up because the statements, even though defamatory, shall live for ever as public records. However this is an incomplete attempt. The alleged investigation was demanded by certain elected public officials operating outside their authority and contrary to City Charter. It was designed to 1. 2. 3. 4. target Fire Chief Steve McInerny, support various political agendas and serve as a pretext for removal from the position of Fire Chief, and serve as a reminder and deterrent to any employee who would dare ask the City follow State Law against the dictates of the ruling politicians. The administration took over 4 months to assemble 20 witness interviews of select individual’s, selected only by the administration and Investigator Sproat. The alleged investigation was carefully crafted and sometimes dovetailed multiple witnesses over 695 pages of witness testimony. Conspicuously missing items exist. Witnesses nominated by the Fire Chief were ignored. The testimony which the Chief provided to the Investigator in two telephone interviews is missing. Instead we are left with a carefully crafted, selectively engineered and produced political hit. 1 However, despite the herculean efforts of the administrative subterfuge, the statements still ring hollow and untruthful when one compares the public records available to the testimony provided. Unfortunately this testing process takes time. The administration took 4 months to cook the story so the vetting is yet to be completed. Therefore, the following are initial observations. On Wednesday, October 28, 2015, The Naples Daily News reported that Attorney Vicki Sproat of the Henderson, Franklin, Starnes & Holt Law Firm of Fort Myers was hired to conduct an informal inquiry, which the elected official defined as investigation, into allegations outlined in a certain letter dated October 21, 2015 from the Professional Firefighters of Naples, Local Union 2174. A letter was distributed to all Fire-Rescue Department personnel on November 2, 2015 stating “that an independent inquiry is the appropriate approach to determine the basis for and the validity of the allegations in the letter and any subsequent course of action.” The following is a list of the interviews conducted by Investigator Vicki Sproat, Esquire over a four-month period running from November 10, 2015 through February 17, 2016: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Nadelman, Adam Clissold, Chris DiMaria, Pete Bruener, Tim Moore, Michael Homan, Dean Nichols, Mike, Battalion Chief Zunzunegui, Daniel Carrington, Kathy Howard, David Adamski, Corey Bowling, Tina Carrington, Kathy Pecar, Gerald Pennington, Phil Rogers, Robert Bills, Randy Perez, Denise Kofsky, Steven Watts, Wayne Lieutenant/Union Officer Driver-Engineer/Union Officer Battalion Chief Battalion Chief Lieutenant/Union Officer Lieutenant Battalion Chief Lieutenant Administrative Assistant Lieutenant Lieutenant Fire Inspector/Public Education Administrative Assistant Lieutenant Battalion Chief Fire Marshal Mechanic Supervisor Human Resources Director Driver-Engineer/Union Officer Senior Management Analyst 11/10/2015 11/19/2015 11/19/2015 11/20/2015 11/20/2015 11/24/2015 11/30/2015 12/2/2015 12/3/2015 12/3/2015 12/7/2015 12/7/2015 12/8/2015 12/8/2015 12/8/2015 12/9/2015 12/15/2015 12/15/2015 12/15/2015 2/17/2016 Investigator Sproat interviewed Fire Chief McInerny by telephone on Friday, 2 November 6, 2015 for a total of 79 minutes in two conversations. Investigator Sproat also conducted a follow-up interview with Chief McInerny on Sunday, November 8, 2015 for a total of 77 minutes in two conversations. Altogether, Investigator Sproat spoke to Chief McInerny for 156 minutes or two-hours and 36 minutes. Notably, Chief McInerny provided her with a list of witnesses that he suggested she speak with. Investigator Sproat never references these calls to Chief McInerny in any document that he is aware of and never interviewed many of the crucial witnesses she was informed of nor did she follow the theories presented to her. In summary, it appears that Investigator Sproat totally disregarded any statement or position advanced by Chief McInerny and instead committed herself to dredge up un-rebutted and uninvestigated, inaccurate, nonsensical, unsupportable defamatory stories while knowing they would become public records and knowing they would create an indelible Google legacy negative to the Chief. If that were not enough, it also appears that she knowingly amplified an agenda and prejudice. Investigator Sproat seems to allow witnesses read from or consult prepared notes. In some cases it appears the notes had been shared. She even joins witnesses off the record. The record demonstrates certain witnesses had conversations with Ms. Sproat off the record, and then she comes back on the record to record their admitted, now jointly discussed and potentially contrived, testimony. Ms. Sproat never reached out to Chief McInerny or any administrator to determine the truth of statements after they were made. In fact it was known to the administrators that many of the alleged actions were unsupported sinister tales of transactions, which had been were in fact vetted by Fire-Rescue Department Staff, Director of Purchasing, Director of Finance, City Attorney, City Manager Staff and the City Manager and then presented to the elected officials at public meetings and affirmatively voted upon by a majority. Notwithstanding this exhaustive vetting of issues in the real world, she permits and spins allegations that the transactions were secret and under handed. Imagining that, even after the processing took place in the Sunshine. Ms. Sproat never sought to research these issues but instead allowed the statements to simply exist “as is.” Ms. Sproat has no subject matter expertise. The record demonstrates she knows little to nothing of government administration and even less of Fire-Rescue 3 Department operations. Investigator Sproat conducted her first witness interview on Tuesday, November 10, 2015 when she interviewed Professional Firefighters of Naples Local Union 2174 President Adam Nadelman. Nadelman’s interview last six hours and 30 minutes. Her last interview was conducted on Wednesday, February 17, 2016 when she interviewed Florida Department of Financial Services Division of the State Fire Marshal Senior Management Analyst Wayne Watts by telephone. Notably Investigator Sproat was professionally chastised by State Fire Marshal Counsel for conducting the alleged interview under pretext and without contacting State Fire Marshal Counsel in advance, and for alleging incorrect conclusions in her memorandum of the call which she sold as accurate. So, as stated, Investigator Sproat was biased from the inception of the investigation and stayed that way throughout leaving behind the defamatory legacy she engineered as an agent of Naples. It is abundantly clear throughout the witness statements that testimony was shared between Local 2174 union officers and certain witnesses including three shift battalion chiefs prior to and after meeting with Investigator Sproat. She also knowingly allowed witnesses to bring in notes utilized to spin the proponent’s (union officials, certain politicians and members of the community) recurring themes and allegations against the Fire Chief. She routinely went off the record with the witnesses apparently clarifying and/or coaching certain testimony. Untruthful statements were clearly and consistently uttered in spite of each witness being advised via a letter that was emailed to each Fire-Rescue Department employee on Monday, November 2, 2015 and prior to each witness statement that “City policy requires employees to be forthright, truthful and cooperative in providing information in connection with an Inquiry or Investigation.” No disciplinary actions or follow up has been started nor will any be started. Approximately half of the interviews consisted of rambling, defamatory and untruthful statements designed to disparage, injure and ultimately destroy Chief McInerny’s 37-year fire service career and reputation. Most often this testimony was indicated to be undocumented and/or of a hearsay fashion. A great deal of the witness testimony was taking out of context, intentionally fabricated or blended as a concoction of both truth and fiction. In fact, a great deal of this witness testimony was outside the scope of investigation outlined in the November 2, 2015 letter that was emailed to all 4 Fire-Rescue Department personnel. Much of this testimony dealt with the everyday operations of the Fire-Rescue Department where clearly management rights and management decisions were made in the best interest of the taxpayers and residents rather than those of Local Union 2174. Finally, Fire Chief McInerny seriously injured his right eye at a “working fire” in the Aqualane Shores neighborhood on June 22, 2015 that also seriously injured another firefighter/paramedic. Chief McInerny is scheduled for his fourth surgery as a direct result of this line-of-duty injury (tomorrow) on Tuesday, April 19, 2015. 5 RECORDED INTERVIEW OF ADAM NADELMAN ON 11/10/15 VLS: Your name for a test and see if it records well? LT. NADELMAN: Adam Nadelman. VLS: All right. Today is November 10, 2015. And, my name is Vicki Sproat. I’m with the law firm of Henderson, Franklin, Starnes & Holt in Fort Myers. I have been retained by the City of Naples to conduct an Inquiry into allegations of misconduct on the part of Steve McInerny. Am I pronouncing that correctly? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: Chief of the Naples Fire & Rescue Department raised in a letter dated October 21, 2015 sent by the Professional Firefighters of Naples Local 2174 to the City Manager. And, today we are in a conference room in the Human Resources Department of the City in City Hall and, this is just an introduction, but with me in the room is Lt. Adam Nadelman who has been asked to give an interview in connection with the Inquiry. Mr. Nadelman, do you understand that I am going to record this interview? LT. NADELMAN: Yes, I do. VLS: And before getting started with the interview, I would like to make you aware of several matters that you are probably already aware of. City policy requires employees to be forthright, truthful and cooperative in providing information in connection with an Inquiry or Investigation. Do you understand that? LT. NADELMAN: Yes, I do. VLS: And City policy also provides that retaliation against an employee for making a complaint or for assisting in an Inquiry or Investigation involving alleged misconduct is prohibited. Do you understand that? LT. NADELMAN: Yes, I do. VLS: And do you understand that if you feel that you have been retaliated against because you made a complaint or participated in making a complaint of misconduct or participated in this process, that you should promptly report that fact to the Human Resources Department? LT. NADELMAN: Yes, I do. VLS: Okay. And, I am just starting to interview witnesses and so I may need to contact you later for a supplemental interview and I will do so through the Human Resources Department. Denise Perez is going to act as a liaison during the Inquiry as far as scheduling and so forth. And, I’ve given you one of my cards and I would encourage you if while the Inquiry is pending, you have something additional that you want to provide to me, that you feel free to do so either by e-mail or by telephone. Okay? -1- LT. NADELMAN: Okay, no problem. VLS: Alright. And also if you have additional documents, I know you brought some documents with you today, I also understand that there may be some additional documents that you might think of or want to present later and I encourage you to do so. Let me see if there is anything else from an introductory matter. Do you have any questions about the process or the interview before we begin? LT. NADELMAN: No, I do not. VLS: Okay. And with that, I’m going to start with just some basic background questions so I understand where you fit into the fire department, fire and rescue department. Would you state your full name? LT. NADELMAN: Adam Nadelman. VLS: Okay. And what’s your current position with NFD? Is that how the LT. NADELMAN: Yeah, NFD. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: It’s Naples Fire Department. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: I am a lieutenant at Fire Station #2. I work on C shift. VLS: Okay. And is the, does the shift also refer to the Battalion? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: Well, yeah. Each shift has a Battalion Chief. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: So yeah. VLS: And forgive me, but in my initial interview I may be asking some questions that may seem elementary, but I am not, I am not totally familiar with the structure of the department, so you will be educating me. LT. NADELMAN: No, not a problem. VLS: Okay. Is Station #2, when I came in today, I kind of came in a back way. Is that the one that’s right down here? -2- LT. NADELMAN: Right here at the parking lot? No, that’s Station #1. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: And, I can give you just a real quick - VLS: Sure. LT. NADELMAN: Just maybe - VLS: Go ahead. LT. NADELMAN: Alright, so, the City of Naples Fire Department consists of three fire stations. Station 1, which is downtown, Station 2 which is in the north end of town and Station 3 which is at the airport. Each shift has 18 operational personnel. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: Out of that, out of the 18, one is a Battalion Chief whose administrative staff non-bargaining unit employee, the other 17 make up the bargaining unit from the three shifts which A, B and C shift all have their Battalion Chiefs and then the 17. Out of that, there is 12 lieutenants, drivers and then firefighters make up the 51 bargaining unit members. VLS: Okay. So when you say there’s 18 operating staff per shift, that would be through the three LT. NADELMAN: Fire stations. VLS: Fire stations. LT. NADELMAN: Correct. VLS: And the shift, that is the C shift that you are on, what is the, what are the hours or the dates? LT. NADELMAN: Its 24 hours. We work 24 on, 48 off. VLS: Okay. And are there any, are you assigned to any particular days of the week or is it a changing LT. NADELMAN: You work 24 hours on and you have, so I work Monday, I’m off Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, off Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, so every third day. So every 21 days, you will have worked all 7 days in the week. VLS: Understood. Okay, that’s helpful. So, what is your background training and certifications? I understand there is various certifications that a firefighter may have. -3- LT. NADELMAN: Okay, yes. I have pretty much, I’ve been with the City 20, over 20 years. I got hired in August of 1995. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: In that time, I have been a firefighter. I’ve been Charge EMT which is in charge of the rescue. I’ve been a driver engineer and promoted to lieutenant and I’m also on my shift, each shift has, when the Battalion Chief is off and acting Battalion Chief, and I’m the acting Battalion Chief for my shift. VLS: Okay. And who is the Battalion Chief over C shift now? LT. NADELMAN: Chief Pete DiMaria. VLS: Okay. So, I guess you’ve worked under several different fire chiefs? LT. NADELMAN: Well, he’s the Battalion Chief. VLS: No, I mean but you have, I mean LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: Yes. Okay. And when did you receive your promotion to lieutenant? LT. NADELMAN: In two thousand, in October 2009. VLS: Okay. And is acting Battalion Chief, is that an additional promotion to be considered the active Battalion Chief for your shift? LT. NADELMAN: It’s usually the senior lieutenant on the shift. But, it is not always the senior lieutenant, it’s also anyone that is interested in becoming a Battalion Chief. You asked my certifications. You know I have a Bachelor’s Degree in management, I have my Fire Office 1 certificate, that’s a state certification. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: I have my Fire Service Instructor 3, which is the highest instructor level. Again, I have numerous certifications, I mean I [illegible] certifications. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: But those are the main ones. I’m also a paramedic. VLS: What are the duties of a lieutenant, what are your duties as a lieutenant, and I understand the times you act as the acting Battalion Chief in the absence of the Pete DiMaria? -4- LT. NADELMAN: Sure. Battalion Chief. Yeah. So my responsibility, I’m assigned to Fire Station 2. There is three trucks at that station. We have engine 2, tower 2 and rescue 2. Okay, I was just letting you catch up. VLS: No, you don’t need to let me because I, it is being recorded, I’m just, for my own benefit. LT. NADELMAN: Okay. So, I am responsible for, I’m the officer at that station responsible for the fire station, anything that happens during the shift. I’m responsible for the three trucks as well. I’m assigned on Engine 2 is my actual unit that I’m on. And there’s eight personnel assigned to Station 2 on C shift; each shift, eight people. So, the seven subordinates I have, I’m the supervisor for all those people. I check all their reports for the day. I do any kind of, whatever needs to be done for the day, make sure it gets done. I also do the evaluations for the seven employees underneath me. And, just run the day-to-day operations. VLS: What are the daily reports that you check? And, again, you’re just educating me so I begin to understand. LT. NADELMAN: Sure. Every call from 911 that we get, depending on the district, so anything in Station 2’s district, every 911 call we do a report. Whether it be a rescue call, power line call, fire alarm, a structure fire, whatever it may, you know, we do reports for every call. VLS: Okay. And what is the term that the fire department assigns to those reports? Are they, or does it depend on the type of call? I mean, when you say you report every call as that [illegible]. LT. NADELMAN: Well no, when I say not report we do, yes, we do an incident report on each call. So we have a system, you know, a program in place that, so when you run a call for example, rescue calls are [illegible] all the time, Rescue 2 would run that that call. They come back to the station and they do a report on the incident. Fill out all the information, you know, just everything from just the address of the call and what it was. Was it a rescue call, a car accident, what kind of rescue call it was and so that, all this information gets put in. Fire alarm the same thing. To give all the basis demographic information of the call and then what you code the call as, was it a false alarm, and then there is a narrative that goes with that, you know, Engine 2 responded, dispatched to. VLS: Is there a particular software program that the Department uses for the reports? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. We use, it’s, well there is [illegible], but it’s both Image Trend. VLS: Image Trend. And as far as who inputs the information, is that done by the unit that responds to the call? LT. NADELMAN: The unit that responds to the call as well as depending on the call as well. So, for example, I’m on Engine 2, I’m the lieutenant, Engine 2 has a driver and -5- a jump firefighter. So, we kind of rotate the calls through, depending on the call. Usually the jump firefighter will do the rescue reports if we run a rescue call. And every shift is different, you know. The drivers will do the fire alarms. And any kind of structure fire or just any type of fire call, I’ll always make sure I do those myself. VLS: And, ultimately, you are the one from Battalion C that reviews those reports daily? LT. NADELMAN: Well, for Station 2. VLS: For Station 2. Understood. LT. NADELMAN: So, at the end of the day or throughout the day, the officer at each station is supposed to look at the reports and make sure, and again you are looking for, to make sure all the fields are filled out properly, something’s not missing. And then you basically, you lock the report. VLS: Is there something that you sign to indicate that you’ve reviewed it? If you say you locked it in, at that point it’s entered. LT. NADELMAN: Well, when I lock it, yes. So then the Battalion Chief at eight o’clock in the morning when he is getting off, he does a daily recap that he sends out. And, so basically, he puts all those reports onto his recap. So, you know, they should all be locked. If he sees one missing, you know he will call the station. Hey, there’s a report missing, you know, for whatever reason. And so then after that, those reports are reviewed by, there is a group of people that review those reports; Battalion Chief Nichols, Lt. Howard and DE, which is Driver Engineer Kofsky. So they, and I don’t know how they do it or who does it, I think they split up months, but they review all the reports and make sure, for accuracy, if there’s something that needs to be corrected, they’ll send it to, you know, the lieutenant of that shift and he’ll make sure it gets corrected. And then they in turn report, send some, and I don’t even know, but they send some report to the State and the State gets a report on those calls. VLS: So, you are a lieutenant with Battalion C so you fall under the Fire Operations Division in the organizational chart of the Naples Fire Department? LT. NADELMAN: Yes ma’am. VLS: And how long has your Battalion Chief been Pete DiMaria? LT. NADELMAN: Since I’ve been on C shift which would be March 2007. VLS: And so would he in the organizational chart be considered your supervisor? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. He’s my immediate supervisor. VLS: We are going to get right to business and you’ve got a copy of the October 21, 2015 letter from Local 2174 that was addressed to Mr. Moss. -6- LT. NADELMAN: I guess we should probably add one other thing for the record. VLS: Sure. LT. NADELMAN: I’m also the Union President. VLS: Okay. Absolutely. And that’s very important. How long have you been Union President? LT. NADELMAN: Too long. 2002, since 2002. VLS: I want to, I probably should have covered this in the introductory session. I want to make it clear that it is not my intent to inquire about Union matters, terms and conditions that might be subject to the Collective Bargaining Agreement. Instead, although the letter came from the Union and to the extent that that is important, I’m sure that you will tell me, but it was my intent to consider and interview witnesses as employees of the fire department. LT. NADELMAN: Fire Department, City of Naples. VLS: Yeah. I mean, is that – f you feel, and I guess I will tell this to everyone that I interview to the extent that they are a Union member, if you feel that I’m getting into some matter that is inappropriate – you are – I encourage you to tell me. That can sometimes be a fine line. LT. NADELMAN: Sure, no problem. VLS: And if you find it appropriate that you want to place a phone call to the – I don’t recall who the attorney is for the Union. LT. NADELMAN: It’s Richard Siwica. VLS: Okay. I have not met him. LT. NADELMAN: He’s out of Orlando, so. VLS: But if there is some issue that comes up, I am sensitive to those lines? LT. NADELMAN: And, I don’t think, at least with me, we won’t have any issues. I’m not worried about it. Again, I’m not here to hide anything. VLS: Well, that’s – and I’m here to do an independent Inquiry. LT. NADELMAN: Yeah. VLS: Okay. The letter. We both have it in front of us. You were one of the signatories on that letter, correct? LT. NADELMAN: That is correct. -7- VLS: And, you signed in your capacity as President? LT. NADELMAN: That’s correct. VLS: Cause it was coming on the Local’s stationary. LT. NADELMAN: And if you want, I can, I can go over now, since it’s not on there and it should have been all four names there, their signatures. VLS: Okay, that would be helpful. LT. NADELMAN: And the reason they are not on there, is the paper that you are looking at that has this – there’s another copy that we have in own, in our Union records, and it has lines all the way down and it’s full of signatures. VLS: Oh. Okay. LT. NADELMAN: Okay. It was more of a petition format. VLS: I see. LT. NADELMAN: And so I made two copies. I made copy with just the top lines and I cut them off so otherwise normally I would have it going this way with everybody’s name on it. VLS: I see. Is that a document that you’re comfortable sharing with me or do you feel that that is – LT. NADELMAN: No. VLS: You’re not comfortable? LT. NADELMAN: No. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: And I could say the members chose not to. VLS: Okay. Understood. LT. NADELMAN: So that is why. Under direction of them. So, but President is myself, Adam Nadelman; Vice President is Chris Clissold; Secretary is Mike Moore; and the Treasurer is Steve Kofsky. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: And then just for reference, Chris is a Driver Engineer (DE); Mike Moore is a lieutenant; and Steve Kofsky is a DE also. -8- VLS: Okay. And what, just I know going into it, what Battalions are they assigned to, if you know? LT. NADELMAN: B shift. Chris is on C shift; Mike Moore is on A shift; and Steve Kofsky is on VLS: Very good. Were you the one that was responsible for actually transmitting the letter by some means to Mr. Moss? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: And how was it transmitted? LT. NADELMAN: E-mail. VLS: Okay, and what, it was transmitted on the day it’s dated, October 21? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: Okay. Do you recall when it was sent? I’m sure there’s records of it. LT. NADELMAN: Yes. It was early morning, around 6 or 7. VLS: Okay. And at the same time, was it copied or sent to others? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. It was either copied or sent to Roger Reinke, who’s the Assistant City Manager and then I, then again I don’t know if that was copied or he was in the sent box and then it was copied to the Mayor and all of council as well. VLS: Okay. And, what I want to ask is whether, I know you’ve signed it as Union President, but does this letter of October 21, 2015 also contain your personal opinions are beliefs as an employee of the fire department? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: Okay. Alright. Let’s go to paragraph 3. LT. NADELMAN: Okay. So, and I – VLS: If you want to tell me more about the – LT. NADELMAN: Well, here’s, here’s – I had a copy of the letter which you already have. What I did to, and I, cause I wasn’t [illegible] on the format of this, is I basically took one through four and I have a copy for you and a copy for me, and I basically, I put specific allegations under each one. VLS: Perfect. LT. NADELMAN: And we can take them in any order you want. -9- VLS: No, we’ll go in the order that you did it. LT. NADELMAN: The only reason I did it in that order, no specific reason other than that was the order they were on in the paper. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: I did it for no other reason than that. VLS: Okay. Is there anything, without me inquiring into anything that may cross the line, is there anything that you want to tell me about the process that led up to the Local preparing and sending this letter? LT. NADELMAN: Okay. So then, basically, it’s a – and I want to – probably going back with [illegible] – but we’ll do this now. Wasn’t sure when – So I have a little bit of history here with the Union and the Chief. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: And I prepared it specifically – okay, so I prepared it specifically because of this e-mail I received from Mr. Moss October 27, dated on the top right hand corner, 2015. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: I had sent Mr. Moss an e-mail. If you follow this, I guess, I sent him an e-mail, you know, basically just touching base with him because we hadn’t spoke prior or since the letter was e-mailed – VLS: The October 21 letter? LT. NADELMAN: The 21st letter. So, we had no communication and so this was six days later. And, basically, I talked to my – well actually – now I remember. I received a phone call from the Naples Daily News saying – asking me what I felt about the investigator the City hired. And so I said well I don’t know what you’re talking about. So he explained to me about an e-mail that was from Moss to Council and so I chose to contact Mr. Moss and Mr. Reinke and just, you know touch base with them. You know. We had a conversation and then this was his e-mail he responded back to me. VLS: Okay. Let me just stop you there. So you, in response to receiving the phone call from the Naples Daily News and learning about the e-mail that Mr. Moss sent to City Council, you initiated a phone conversation with Moss and Reinke. LT. NADELMAN: I initiated an e-mail and he called me after the e-mail. VLS: Alright. - 10 - LT. NADELMAN: I was looking for it. So, so this was when, and he replied back to me after our phone conversation and attached the e-mail that the Naples Daily News referenced to myself, which is, I have here attached is a copy for you. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: So, and then it goes on to, you know, you see the beginning he just says as our conversation, Mrs. Sprout was commissioned and they would be in contact with me. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: So, then he attached the e-mail. So, he had sent this e-mail which is the thread on this to Council. VLS: Yes. LT. NADELMAN: And basically laying out on October 21 the letter. So, on the bottom of the second page, observations/labor agreement, he puts a little quote in here from the PSSi report which was the Master Plan done by the City, and so, he indicates in this e-mail that, you know, there was obviously a good working relationship with the Chief prior to this report coming out and that, you know, and he says that he was indeed surprised to learn that the IFF 2174 relationship has apparently depreciated substantially in this top paragraph he talks about the next page. This is the paragraph I am talking about. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: Depreciated substantially since the report and that conditions – the last sentence in there says conditions have apparently changed dramatically in such a short period of time. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: So, based on that e-mail and, I just put together a small history that this is not just something that’s happened overnight. VLS: So you definitely disagree with that characterization? LT. NADELMAN: Sure, well that maybe he’s not aware. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: I can’t speak for what he was aware and not aware of. But, I will say that as far as the comments that were in the PSSi report, Brian Cummings was, I met with him several times when he did the report. And I did explain to him that we had some issues with the Chief and that, you know, he was not always forthright with us. - 11 - VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: But at the same time, yes we had a working relationship where he would meet with me and talk to me. So, I didn’t expect him to put in the report that the firefighters don’t like the Chief. But, so then based on this e-mail, I put together, just a – and I’ll give you the whole stack. VLS: And just for purposes of the record, so I can follow and remember what we did, I just put a # 1, just penciled that in on the first document that we looked at. LT. NADELMAN: Oh, sure. And, I’ll do the same on mine. VLS: And, then, so, I mean, we’re describing the documents, but if there’s any question later what we were looking at, this will help me. LT. NADELMAN: So now this section, although some of the things in this might have been mentioned in what we’re going to go over. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: All this is, is to show you that there’s been a history of problems with the Chief. This is not just a, well, everything’s been fine up until September. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: Okay. So, I’m going to give you the whole stack. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: Then I’ll go over them one at a time briefly. I don’t think we need a lot of time on them, but again, I’ll leave that up to you, if you have questions about anything. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: So this is – VLS: So, we’re looking at a series of documents that I’m just going to put a #2 on and the top document is – LT. NADELMAN: I’ll go over this. VLS: Okay. Go ahead. LT. NADELMAN: So, what this is – this is – we had a – back in 2012, we had unfair labor practice and impasse hearings and there’s a whole bunch of things in that period of time. And, so this is just a copy of this case and it just lists some of the Union’s exhibits that went to the, it says right on top, Charging Party’s Exhibits that [illegible] in here and so, you will see # 6, 8 and 10 all have to do with the Fire Chief and so if you - 12 - go to the next page you’ll see the actual exhibits that were attached to that. Exhibit 6 was an e-mail from Chief McInerny on August 27, 2012 basically sending out a letter that was sent to us by the City almost a year earlier about the collective bargaining that was going on and part of subsequent to impasse. And this was taken by all the members as a threat by the Chief. You know, you guys are doing this, this is not the right thing to do, and again, this was, he just did it on. VLS: So the significance of Exhibit 6 to the Charging Party’s Exhibits was that the Union membership took this e-mail of August 27, 2012 from the Chief as a threat? LT. NADELMAN: I don’t – maybe a threat is a poor choice of words. Was he, strongly disagreed with what we were doing, didn’t want us to do it and was getting involved with the collective bargaining to the fact where he was trying to put pressure on the Union so that, and again, I can’t speak for his reasons, other than I know that he wanted more firefighters and there was several comments made to our council members, you know we’re not going to hire more firefighters while we’re fighting with the Union. The Chief took that as actual, you know, that he thought if we had this solved, he would get more firefighters, which we weren’t going to get more firefighters which we haven’t since then either. And so this was just a contentious problems with the Chief. This is in 2012. VLS: Just, I know that I have record of this, but when the Chief started, in what year, if you recall? LT. NADELMAN: 2009. VLS: Alright. And are we kind of going through this in chronological order? Are there issues that are raised in the October 21, 2015 letter that go back even further than 2012? LT. NADELMAN: There are. I don’t have per say dates. All’s this is right here, this stack we went over is just the fact that this is not a new issue. These are issues we’ve had with the Chief. VLS: Okay. Continue. LT. NADELMAN: Exhibit 8 on that letter was an e-mail that the Chief put out two days later from the first e-mail which was August 29, which he sent out to all of our Union members a letter about the Port Orange Fire Department and how they went to impasse and they all got huge pay cuts. And then in his comments here, the last line of his email it says, “I could be mistaken but I believe the Port Orange Firefighters used the same labor attorney as the City of Naples Firefighters. Again, trying to tell us we’re not doing the right thing, disagreeing with us and actually, the night that he sent this out, I received several phone calls from firefighters. What is this going on? And so I texted the Chief. And, Exhibit 10 is kind of a small text message chain and again, I have these actual messages on my phone, but this was an exhibit attached to that. VLS: Alright. - 13 - LT. NADELMAN: On where, with the Chief – you know, and I asked him, I said, and again, basically if the Union asked, or the City asked him to send this e-mail out? And he says, “Nope.” And then I said well I think you should talk to me first, it’s a Union issue. If you want to help with that, then call me and then he went on to his rant and rave about how, you know, it’s yours to lose, good luck, you know, but sarcasm good luck. If you read through it, you can. Again, all’s this is, and the date with this would correspond with the date on this, which is August 29. Again, just showing a history of problems with the Chief. The next one is a Class Action Grievance that the Union filed in – VLS: Okay. Before we get – this is separate from the unfair labor practices? LT. NADELMAN: Yeah, we’re done with those exhibits. VLS: Just tell me what occurred as far as the unfair labor practice that these documents were submitted with just so I understand how that works. LT. NADELMAN: We had like four unfair labor practices, but that one was I think combined too, but basically the Union, the Union or the City won everything, the impasse, cause we have the [illegible] impasse hearing, then the unfair labor practice charges and then we actually had the impasse resolution of Council. So that period took about two years, maybe 18 months and in that time the, that unfair labor practice was unfounded, that one. Then the City filed one on us which the [illegible] said that they were correct and we were wrong. And then the impasse hearing, the hearing officer, which actually happened before that, basically split his decision on the two different articles [illegible] impasse one he favored the City and one he favored the City, us, and then that went to Council where they just did, basically took his recommendations away and just did, I guess, did what they wanted with the pension ultimately, and then as well with the one which is a safety and health article which the impasse, the hearing officer recommended our side on that, but the City went with their [illegible] as well. VLS: When were the impasse resolutions? When were these unfair labor practices finally determined? I guess the final determination is the Council – LT. NADELMAN: Yeah, was at Council which would have been June 2013 or 12. I want to say, let’s see, if it was June 2012 that would put, was June 2013. VLS: There, at least the case # is a 2012 case, so that might make more sense that it was 2013 when finally got to – LT. NADELMAN: Then it was June 2013. VLS: So we’ve covered the significance of the Charging Party exhibits, in particular, 6, 8 and 10. From your standpoint, is they illustrate that the issues you are raising are longstanding? LT. NADELMAN: Correct. - 14 - VLS: And, what’s the next document? LT. NADELMAN: The next one is a Class Action Grievance, which this is referenced in the allegations, but this was a grievance, class action, where 33 members of the department put letters into the – and I’ll go into the specifics of it in the allegations. But, again, we had some major issues with the Chief. This was in January 2014 where we had to file a Class Action Grievance. VLS: And, just as I look through this, help me with an acronym. Partnership Program? LT. NADELMAN: What is ALS Advance Life Support. VLS: Thank you. And you said we would be coming back to that. LT. NADELMAN: This specific one. VLS: You’re saying it is one of the matters that is referenced or intended to be referenced in the October 21, 2015 letter. LT. NADELMAN: Yes it is. And then the next two items are letters of reprimand; one for Lt. Dan Zunzunegui and one for firefighter, Austin Green. They’re both dated, one 18th, November 18 and November 19 are the dates of them. And, they’re for completely different incidents which we filed grievances on both letters of reprimand. These were all handled at Step 1 with the Battalion Chiefs because that’s what Step 1 in the contract, the grievance letter, Step 1. And both of these were brought to – let me see this one – they’re both probably, yeah Tim Bruener, because he’s an A shift Battalion Chief and they’re both A shifters. So, when I asked him about these letters of reprimand that are allegedly from him and I questioned him about these, he said listen, I didn’t he write these. The Chief wrote these and told me to give them to you. VLS: And when did you have that conversation with Bruener? LT. NADELMAN: Both, well one was Bruener – the Lt. Zunzunegui one I think was from all three Battalion Chiefs, even though it says from Tim. But, would be subsequent to receiving these in November 2013. VLS: And did he share with you that it was not his that he disagree with it? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. On both of these disciplines. The both – the one with Dan Zunzunegui, more than one Battalion Chief interviewed Dan. And with Austin Green, I believe it was just Tim, Battalion Chief Bruener. But they’ve all, cause I spoke to them all about this, and as well, we can go back to the ALS grievance, Step 1 was handled with them. But, again, I think that’s even in here. VLS: Just so I understand, the – - 15 - LT. NADELMAN: If you asked Tim if he wrote these, he will tell you the truth. I can’t speak for him, I mean I can and would tell you what our conversation is about, so. And, as well VLS: And was it taken to the next - ? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. It was taken – all three of these grievances were taken all the way to the City Manager step. And so, and, we were going to take the ALS grievance to impasse. Or to, I’m sorry, arbitration, not impasse. But all of these grievances were squashed by the City. And when I say that, we were in the middle of contract negotiations at the time of these letters with the City. And on the City’s last proposal to get the deal done and, you know, there were raises tied to it, there were pension benefits, the drop plan was tied to it, they said they wanted all these to go away. They wanted to fix everything and let it go away. VLS: So you are talking about what occurred in the CBA, in the process of negotiating a new contract. LT. NADELMAN: Sure. Yeah. They listed all three of these grievances with their last proposal saying that, you know, we’ll sign this contract, we’ll get you your raises, we’ll get everything started, we’ll give you the drop plan, we want these to go away. And so that’s why these even went away. Otherwise, they would have, we would have pushed these a lot further. VLS: But they were, as a part of that process, they were withdrawn. Is that correct word? LT. NADELMAN: And again, when I say – okay. So the ALS grievance was withdrawn. Actually, all of them, we made some sort of deal to settle them out. So basically they weren’t really withdrawn. We basically just, we agreed to settle them out in one way or another. And, I will be more specific with the ALS one because that’s, again, in the allegations here. But yeah, they were all reduced to an oral counseling or something that’s not a grievable incident or settled lower than what it was, just to get them done. Which, again this, all this is doing is just showing there is a history of a problem with the Chief. VLS: Just out of curiosity, do you know whether PSSi inquired about the history between the, I mean, do you know whether they had access to any of this information and whether this was something that you, as Union President, discussed with Brian Cummings when he came? LT. NADELMAN: When he came, we did not talk about any of these things. He had asked, we had some conversations and they were very general. You know, he would ask, you know, basically off the record stuff as far as, you know, issues with the Chief. And then I explained to him issues that we’ve had and some of them are in here that I had voiced to him, but I felt at that time, also with the report, you know, if they’re doing the report for the whole department as a whole, you know. Yes, we have a working relationship with the Chief. You know, it’s there. We have similar issues. And some of - 16 - the issues that we had weren’t just Chief issues, there were City issues. And, he put some of them in the report and some he hadn’t put in the report. VLS: Did you feel that the report of PSSi was incomplete as it related to labor management issues? LT. NADELMAN: Again, I didn’t write the report. There are definitely things that I said to Brian Cummings that weren’t in the report. But, ultimately, you know, I could why he wrote what he wrote. You know, you don’t put out a report that Council’s paid for saying that the Union and the Chief don’t like each other. VLS: Was there anything in particular that you told him that you thought that when you saw the report, and I assume you’ve read it, you thought should have been included as it related to that particular issue? LT. NADELMAN: No. I read the report and I specifically read the labor management section of the report and I just thought for the purposes of that report, that was fine. You know, it really wasn’t a report on labor issues. It was really a department organizational, what we needed, what we didn’t need. And I didn’t think it was necessary to add any of the other additional stuff that we spoke about in there. If he did, he did, but he didn’t and I thought that was fine. VLS: Now, just to say to you, these are the documents which I’ve just marked as # 2, kind of a composite. We’ve been through them relating to difference grievances. I have not seen these before and I may have, to the extent it’s pertinent to this investigation, have additional questions for you because I’m not going to sit here and read them all now. But, I appreciate you bringing them to my attention. LT. NADELMAN: Sure. And again, the purpose of that was after reading the e-mail that Mr. Moss sent, I just wanted to make sure that you were aware, or whoever was looking at this, that this is not something that is just changed since September. Because there have been issues with the Chief for quite some time. VLS: Alright. And if you could, and I don’t know if you can do this, if you could summarize what specific issues you believe these show, what issues with the Chief that you’re saying, I mean I know you’re saying that there were ongoing issues, but – LT. NADELMAN: Again, they would – if you looked at the categories, they would probably fall into # 3 where, you know, you know a lot of this stuff he lied about, outright lied about them and, you know, he just showed the members of the department that, you know, the lengths he would go because he doesn’t like, he didn’t like Dan. Everybody knows he didn’t like the Lt. Zunzunegui one of the grievances. And, he just, you know, he would make comments to the Battalion Chiefs that I’m going to fire Dan, Lt. Zunzunegui. Now, again, I’m hearing that secondhand from the Battalion Chiefs. I never heard him tell me that directly. But, you know, so he just had it out for him and so we felt that that came out and then he lied about, I know about Tim writing them, Battalion Chief Bruener. Again, it just, its, and at the time it’s a small little thing. Each of these incidents are small little things. Some of them were brought to the City, the - 17 - City management specifically, the ALS agreements, I brought very specific allegations during the grievance process to Roger Reinke. And, again, it just kind of got buried in there. But a lot of this, a lot the things I’m going to go over probably individually. Well, it’s really not that big of a deal or it’s not, but it’s all of them adding up over time, over years, that caused ultimately, this letter that was sent on October 21. So these are just some of those little things. So, that is just an outline, just some of the, then there’s a ton of things like that, but nothing I can actually hand you. And if something comes up where I could, I don’t know, from somewhere else, it just goes to show the history that we’ve had with the Chief. VLS: It seems logical that we go now back to the letter and address the points that were raised in the letter. Unless there is something further that you want to give me as background as far a labor management relations to the extent that you want to talk about that. LT. NADELMAN: No. Lack of labor management I guess, you know. If you want to just, you know, we use to have monthly labor management meetings with the Chiefs prior. Now, sometimes we would skip a month here and there, if there was nothing much going on either side, but we always sat down with the Chief. The Chief always scheduled labor management with us at least quarterly, you know. And we don’t get that from Chief McInerny. VLS: And that’s been true – LT. NADELMAN: Since I’ve been here. Oh, yes, since he, yes, since he came. VLS: Alright, before we get into the four enumerated points in the October 21, 2015 letter, I would like to go to the third paragraph that says “In summary.” It states, “In summary, it’s membership’s position that Chief McInerny has created a poor working environment, has shown both a lack of leadership and an inability to make sound decisions on matters affecting the community.” And, I just, I just want to ask you then is that summary then broken down into the four points that follow? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: And, when did you believe that the poor working, that Chief McInerny began creating a poor working environment? Because that was one of the things you’ve been talking about, things aren’t just new. So, I know you probably can’t put a date on it, but are you going back to the start of his LT. NADELMAN: And again - Sure. I would probably say it’s probably different for each member. VLS: Why don’t you just speak for yourself then? LT. NADELMAN: Well, when I say each member, I know for, I know the Battalion Chiefs started having problems with him earlier than we did. When I say we, I mean the bargaining unit. But I would say after, within the first two years of him starting. After - 18 - that, we started having, problems started arising. And again, it would go up and down. It was not just constantly horrible. But, yeah, I would say probably 2011 if I had to pick a time. VLS: And that’s, okay. And then the next point, “It’s the membership’s position that the Chief has shown a lack of leadership and ability to make sound decisions.” When did you first, what’s the genesis of that? When did that become your position, or for that matter, the membership’s position? LT. NADELMAN: I would say it’s something that over time kind of increased. I wouldn’t say, I can’t tell you specifically, one specific date. But, over time, the things that he was doing, the things that he was, environment that he was creating for us was getting worse and worse. VLS: So you see it as – LT. NADELMAN: A gradual. VLS: A gradual, but progressing? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: Let’s get into the four enumerated issues and you’ve been kind enough to provide me with a document that I guess you’re saying kind of summarizes some of those points. So, let’s start with – LT. NADELMAN: Well actually, it’s probably the opposite of summarizing it. actually just goes into more specifics. It VLS: Okay. Perfect. LT. NADELMAN: Yeah. The original letter is a summary [illegible]. VLS: Now, did you prepare – I’m just going to mark this as #3 in terms of our discussion items today, that outline that provides the detail. Did you create this document? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: And did anybody assist you in creating it? LT. NADELMAN: No one actually assisted me in creating it, but I mean I had conversations about it while I was creating it, I guess, I don’t know. But, this is all my work, my writing. No one wrote any of this stuff for me. VLS: And when did you prepare this document #3, the detailed statement? LT. NADELMAN: I started working on it probably a couple days after I sent the letter. Maybe the day after. I don’t know. - 19 - VLS: So it wasn’t – this document was not prepared before the letter was sent? LT. NADELMAN: Correct. I took, I mean I had a lot of information, data, notes, things like that. And again, we didn’t go into sending this. This was not a light decision. This was not a knee jerk reaction. This was, as a matter of fact, and so I’m probably going into things that you’re not allowed to ask, but I’m going to volunteer anyway. Over the last two and a half years, this, doing a vote of no confidence in the Chief, this was the third time it came up at a meeting. Okay. And prior to this, I’ve always kind of, me personally just listened, but as the Union President, it’s not really the best thing to do. We should not do this. These things very rarely work out well for the bargaining unit. And, in general, the international doesn’t really support them in general. And so, and not by any one individual, it’s come up by different individuals at meetings when we’ve had conversations, whatever the topic might be. And, so the last time it came up at a meeting when we discussed it, is when we decided. I said, well, there’s quite a bit of things here. Let’s have second meeting specifically just about this and nothing else and then that’s what we winded up doing. It was not something that I just said, hey let’s go do this. It wasn’t even my suggestion. VLS: Okay so you, and again, if you don’t want to answer this that’s fine, but the meeting that was called specifically for that point, was the October 19, 2015 meeting? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. It was discussed in the 13th, it was brought up. Actually, it was brought up honestly in our September meeting. Much heated and there was some specific things and I said well, let’s try and work on some of these things and that didn’t work out and so it came up again on the 13th meeting and you know, what have you done in the last month so, I was not able to do anything. And so, it just progressed there. So again, this is at least the third time in the last two and a half years that doing a vote of no confidence came up. VLS: Let’s get into the specific enumerated points in the October 21 letter. Now, you’ve written some things down, but were also recording the interview. So, it may be helpful if you, I’ll ask you the question, if you want to read directly from the document because you thought it through. The first, just for the record, the first point in the Union’s letter is that “the Chief has misled the community and City staff. In particular, he has created the misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities.” And, in that point, on your outline, you’ve listed four bullet points? LT. NADELMAN: Correct. VLS: Now, are those bullet points, are they exhaustive? I mean are those just simply some primary examples? LT. NADELMAN: Primary examples. VLS: And, the first one and, in terms of important, are they listed in your mind in order. LT. NADELMAN: No. No, there’s no specific order of importance. - 20 - VLS: The first item, the first bullet point under #1 is $600,000 fire boat. Tell me how that relates to the allegation that the Chief misled the community and City staff? LT. NADELMAN: So, if you live in the City of Naples, you know about this fire boat. VLS: Which I do not. LT. NADELMAN: But you do not. Okay. VLS: Maybe that’s why I’m coming in because I’m untainted by the citizenship. LT. NADELMAN: Yes. And we had a fireboat, we have a new fire boat now. We had a fire boat prior to that that was in very poor condition, unsafe. It needed to be replaced, and so I’m not saying that the Chief bought a boat that didn’t need. We needed a boat. The problem is, he wanted this huge big fire boat that would have been the biggest fire boat on the west coast of Florida. And, he was told, several times, by Battalion Chiefs, by members that he spoke to about it, listen we don’t need a boat like that. Sure, it would be nice to have a big boat, but we don’t need a huge boat. First of all, it won’t even work for our department for our waterways. And, he insisted on asking for this fire boat that was just way too expensive and when he brought it Council, it was a huge issue. We went four years without a safe fire boat because he insisted on trying to get this humungous monstrosity. When ultimately, we winded up getting the fire boat, which for $180,000 to $250,000, we could’ve got when he first asked for it and went years without having a safe fire boat because of it. So, to say that we didn’t need a fire boat would be incorrect. But, he insisted on asking for way more than we needed. And, I could see asking for something more than you need and hopefully getting what you want, but it was to the point of, it was exhausting. I would go to meetings, and just department meetings for the City, trainings with the payroll and this and that, and they would make jokes about our fire boat that you know, the Chief would always ask for. And, specifically, Battalion Chief Nichols, I know he worked close with the fire boat with the Chief. And he’s been at the west coast his whole life. He’s been with the City more than me, probably 23 years. And he, he was really the expert on boating and the waterways and what we needed. And, told the Chief numerous times, listen Chief, we’re not going to get this boat for all this money. It’s too big anyway to go down some of the small canals and things we need. Let’s get what we need. And, so, again, if you’ve lived in the City, the word fire boats, you know, a four-letter word. But again, he just insisted on asking for something that was way more money than the City would give him and more than we needed and ultimately, we winded up suffering, working on an unsafe boat for all that time. VLS: Let me back up a little bit. LT. NADELMAN: Sure. VLS: Can you describe the boat that the Chief was promoting? described it that you think it is too big and too expensive and if I - - 21 - I mean, you’ve LT. NADELMAN: Yes. I could tell you that that is something you might want to ask Chief Nichols. He had specs on the boat and on all those things. But it was just a big metal, metal – I’m not again, the specs on it and what it was. VLS: And when did, do you know what the process is with the City for the fire department to acquire a, new equipment such as a fire boat? LT. NADELMAN: Capital improvements, sure. VLS: Yes. Through the capital improvement? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. It’s you know, any kind of purchase such as that. Large purchases go through, have to get approved by Council and there’s a big process and there’s all that that goes with it and they approve a budget every year. But that would be a CIP budget. VLS: So it would have been an issue that came up in the capital improvement budget annually for a number of years. LT. NADELMAN: Well, yeah. And what it is, is you submit a budget. And, again, I could be off a little bit on this. You submit items that you want and then the Council talks about it and then you bring justification for it and then, you know, there’s several meetings, probably two or three at least a year prior to them approving it or not approving a budget and that goes forward. VLS: When was the new fire boat acquired? LT. NADELMAN: Just this year. VLS: And from you standpoint, is the current fire boat appropriate? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. Which is actually, originally what we really needed. VLS: Now, I want to understand in the misled portion of that, if the fire boat is an example of how the Chief misled the community and City staff, then I want to go back and ask you how the Chief specifically misled the community with regard to the boat. LT. NADELMAN: Well, he said this is what we needed. We needed this. And again, I’m estimating at $600,000. I think it was more. But, yeah, he was insisting this is what we needed. This is the only thing, this is the only thing, this is what we had to have. Without this, it was, you know, anything else less was no good. VLS: And, is that – he is – is he – is the misleading in the proposed capital improvement budget or were there documents that he sent out to or presented to - ? LT. NADELMAN: There’s, in all the improvement budgets, he submits documents. Yeah, so they would have all that. You know, he had made comments that well we need this to draft water to fight a fire, you know, a house fire. We’ve never, ever, ever, - 22 - ever, ever done something like that, nor would we have the staffing to do that. When you have structure fire, and even if it’s on the very end of the block that’s on a canal, where you might be able to use the boat for that, everybody’s there at that call. You know, our fire boat is used more for a rescue boat and it does have firefighter capabilities that we’ve used on boat fires, but to use the fire boat for a house fire, not to say that it’s impossible. I’m sure you can think of a scenario for anything, but you know, so unlikely that, to say that’s what you need it for, is definitely misleading. VLS: So in misleading the community, is that Council? I want to LT. NADELMAN: Well, he presents, so he presents this information to Council which is publicized and the community at large, you know, watches these meetings, you know, come to the meetings. So, yeah. That’s how I’m referring to it. All of the Council meetings are televised. So when you’re standing up there telling the City that they need this, I consider that’s community and the Council members represent the community. VLS: Alright. That’s what I wanted to understand. And, how did he mislead City staff in connection with the fire boat? LT. NADELMAN: That would be the same. It’s the same. City staff would be – so I guess you could count Council as City staff, but you know, specifically, you know, these same ideas and comments that I’m making are – you know he had to bring these to City staff, being City Manager’s Office and finance, you know, to move forward with it. So, it all comes to the same [illegible]. VLS: And as far as the misrepresentation, it was – you’re referring primarily to his representing that this is what the City needs? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: And, you’re saying that the Union, or you personally and others disagreed that that was needed? LT. NADELMAN: Correct. And, again, the Battalion Chiefs are not bargaining unit members. This is not, you know, this is not just a Union issue. VLS: Do you know, you indicated in a sub bullet under that point that the Chief was advised by the Battalion Chiefs on what was needed, but he ignored it. Was that to your knowledge a unified, all of the Battalion Chiefs were, felt that it was not needed and informed him of that or - ? LT. NADELMAN: I can’t be 100% positive, all of them. I would say yes, but that would be just an assumption on my part. VLS: But you do believe that it was, that Nichols in particular? LT. NADELMAN: I know he worked a lot on the fire boat. - 23 - VLS: Alright. LT. NADELMAN: And I would imagine Battalion Chief DiMaria is in charge of the budget. So, you know, he knows what things, what we have, what we don’t have, what we can spend, what we can’t spend. And anything that is put in that budget by the request of the Chief is done by Chief DiMaria. So if the Chief says I want to budget this much or put this much in for that, you know. VLS: Alright. And, this may seem like a silly question, but what if, if the Chief was misleading the community and the staff on the need for a fire boat, what do you think motivated that? I’m asking you to speculate and maybe I won’t, and maybe I won’t, I’ll withdraw that. LT. NADELMAN: I’ll answer. In my own opinion is ego. It’s just you know, I want the biggest and you know. He’s made the comment before, we’ll have the biggest boat on the west coast of Florida. You know, again, I can’t – VLS: And you can’t and I realize that. LT. NADELMAN: No, no that’s okay. VLS: I was asking you to speculate. LT. NADELMAN: I have an opinion, but it doesn’t mean it’s the right one either. VLS: Is there anything else that you think I should know about that sub bullet point about the fire boat being an example of where the Chief misled the community and staff by creating a misimpression of need? LT. NADELMAN: Not that I can think of. VLS: Let’s go to point #2 which is $5 million fire station. Where LT. NADELMAN: This would be replacing Fire Station 1. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: And this is something that the Chief, coming in, you know, because our administration is over at the police station. So it’s where the Chief, the Battalion Chiefs, the Fire Prevention Bureau is. And, something he doesn’t like, he didn’t like from the beginning, we need to get this all out in one big building. And, now, before I go into this, I want to make it very clear. I’m not saying I wouldn’t love a nice brand new fire station. Not saying that at all. But, again, it has put us in a situation where we’re living in substandard quarters because he’s insisting on wanting this huge fire station. And so, I wrote in this sub bullet point, you know, [illegible] fire station, wasted money on a new kitchen at Station 1 and refused to use funding already approved by Council to fix bigger problem areas, such as showers, stating that if we fix the showers, they won’t give us a new station. We had an inspection company, the City hired an - 24 - inspection company to inspect all of the facilities, not just the fire stations; all the buildings. And, the Chief didn’t want certain things fixed. And when I say he didn’t want certain things fixed, we had, after the Chief had originally brought some of the fire station problems to Council, they had approved, and again I don’t know where it would be. Chief [illegible] would probably know that as well as, I mean the City’s [illegible] should know. They approved like I want to say about $100,000 to make some repairs to the fire station. VLS: And again, we’re talking about Fire Station 1? LT. NADELMAN: Yes, Fire Station 1. So, and you know, they painted and they did some, got rid of some of the carpets. And they redid the kitchen completely. And, I don’t know how much of that money they used. But, ultimately, we have leaking showers that have mold growing on the floors and every single time the Chief would bring, try and get a new station for Fire Station 1, he would take these pictures of the same problems that we had money to fix, but he didn’t want to fix – he didn’t want to use the money to fix the problems because he was afraid and he even made the comment, if we fix some of these, and he made it directly me, as well as I know he talked about it with Chief DiMaria because he works on the budget, “you know if we fix some of these major issues, they’re not going to give me a new fire station.” Because he wants a huge fire station with administration there and everything. And again, I would love a new fire station. Who wouldn’t like a new building to work in? But again, we have – air conditioning breaks down on a weekly basis. The showers, you see the mold growing on them because they leak and you clean them, and so the rust from the doors opening and closing, they’re just deplorable. And, he had the money that we could have fixed some. It was approved by Council. I can’t tell you exactly what year it would have been, last year or the year before, but they gave him – here, let’s get some of this stuff fixed and he didn’t fix anything. VLS: Who else would have – you said he made the statement to you if you fix these major issues, I don’t know if you were referring to the showers, we won’t get the new fire station? LT. NADELMAN: I know he directed them to me. He’s made comments, and again, passing comments when he goes through – because he used to go through the station and take pictures and like I said, he would go to whatever crew was on, hey the inspection company is today, I want you to make sure and show this and show them that and show them this. VLS: Who was the inspection company? LT. NADELMAN: there. I don’t remember the name of it, otherwise I would have wrote it VLS: What was it, so I can find out, what was the purpose of the inspection? LT. NADELMAN: It was City wide to do an overview of the facilities citywide, not just fire stations. Every single building they did a study on. You know, this needs to be - 25 - replaced, this doesn’t need replaced, this needs replaced, this can be fixed, this can’t be fixed. And again, ultimately, if we needed a new station and [illegible], I know it got pushed back two more years because the station has been in the budget every year for the last five years maybe. VLS: A new station? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. And they just pushed it back even further again which means we’re going to be in these – the living quarters at the fire station is just – years and years ago bunk rooms for the fire departments were just one room with a bunch of beds in it. Most fire departments now have individual rooms. At Station 2 we have individual rooms; at Station 1 we don’t. And so you’ve got these tiny little – you’ve got it crammed. The spaces is very limited. And so everything is crammed with these tiny little lockers and its, again, some people are fine with it. Some people, they walk in there and go, I can smell the mold in here. But again, I can’t tell you there is mold or not mold. I know they painted, they did some things. But, we’ve been living in a subpar station instead of using the money. Because if we’d used the money, we might not have gotten a new fire station and we still don’t have one. VLS: So, you are definitely in favor of a new fire station? LT. NADELMAN: I’m in favor of a new fire station, of course, but to what extent do we have to – you were given $100,000. Make some changes here and he didn’t touch the money. VLS: So you’re really critical of the fact with the money that he was given that priorities, it should have been spent, and priorities should have been spent on living quarters? LT. NADELMAN: Sure. Well, this was even after – this was an additional $100,000 that was given after the kitchen was redone and the carpets. That, you know, I know we used some of it, but I don’t – I think very little of it. And again – VLS: What did you believe were the priority items that should have been addressed – the living quarters and showers? LT. NADELMAN: The living quarters, the showers and the a/c. And, when I say, when I say that I believe, and this going off of what the guys that have to work down there, I don’t work down there. VLS: Because you don’t work in that station? LT. NADELMAN: I don’t work in that station. So, you know, I’m relaying information that people have brought to me that I’ve brought to the Chief. And, I speak to the Chief probably more than most others. Not because of being Union President, but because I’m Acting Battalion Chief. So, when I’m Acting Battalion Chief, I’m in the office, you know, when the Chief is there. - 26 - VLS: I see. LT. NADELMAN: And so I see him a lot. VLS: Do you know if in accurate data was given to the inspection company? Do you know – LT. NADELMAN: I have no idea what was given to them. VLS: And, when you say that the Chief asked the firefighters to make sure and show the inspection company how bad the showers were, do you know who he said that to? LT. NADELMAN: I don’t, I don’t. I don’t have a specific – there’s no one in general. VLS: And who would be the person or the people that would, firefighters, that would be most likely to be able to elaborate on this point? LT. NADELMAN: I would have to find out when – and the companies came in more than once. And a lot times in the beginning, the Chief came with the company. So, he would walk them through. And then when we had Council members walk, he would walk through with Council members and he would, you know, he would take them to specific areas of the station. Not to say there was nothing wrong with the station. You know, there were areas with no problems. But, there are areas we could have fixed. So, I don’t have a specific name. VLS: Okay. That’s fine. LT. NADELMAN: Again, that might be something that the Battalion Chiefs can answer for you. Because generally a lot of things that, and even some of the information in here, are things that come through the chain of command. And that goes back to almost like a military type thing. You know, if my Battalion Chief calls me up and says Chief McInerny wants you to do this. Alright, I do that based on the fact that he told me it’s from the Chief. So it’s like the Chief telling me. VLS: Right. LT. NADELMAN: Right. Because the Chief doesn’t call up the fire station and go hey I need a firefighter to go take out the garbage, you know. He might go to City Hall and go hey, call the Battalion Chief you know. Hey Mike, I just went to Station 1 and I saw whatever out back, you know. Have someone clean that up. So, a lot of things that are directed, and again I know it’s, it’s really legally hearsay, but, I mean, it’s taken as the chain of command is very important in the fire service and so when your superior tells you the Chief wants you to do this, you do it because, not because your Battalion Chief – VLS: You assume that it’s coming from the – - 27 - LT. NADELMAN: Yeah – not because your Battalion Chief told you to do it, but because it’s really coming from the Chief. VLS: Are there any particular documents that you think are important or relevant to this point? LT. NADELMAN: I think the name of the company, and this just came to me, is A.D. Morgan. But I could be incorrect, completely wrong. VLS: Do you believe, regardless of who the company was, do you believe that the report was skewed or inaccurate as ultimately issued? I mean I realize you are telling me it was facilities wide. LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: And I’m only asking you, did you look at it? Do you know whether – did you feel that it did not accurately assess the situation? LT. NADELMAN: I don’t know what they based their decision on. I could tell you that – honestly I don’t know what they based their decision on. But, they were definitely steered to replacing the station more than just giving them – here look at the building objectively and tell me what you think. VLS: What did – LT. NADELMAN: That doesn’t mean to say that it didn’t need to be replaced no matter if they look at it objectively or not. VLS: Alright. This particular fire station, Station 1, that was – was that a facility that was specifically addressed in the PSSi report? LT. NADELMAN: I don’t know. It’s like 500 pages. VLS: Yes. Have you, by the way, read it? LT. NADELMAN: I have not read it cover to cover. I glanced through it. I looked at the conclusions of each section and kind of went to the ones that I wanted to look at. VLS: Anything else that you think we need to cover on the second point under #1? LT. NADELMAN: Not that I can think of. VLS: Want to take a break? LT. NADELMAN: If you’d like to. VLS: Yeah, let’s take a break. I’m going to turn off the recorder and when we come back in in about 5 minutes, I’m going to ask you to remind me to get it back on. - 28 - LT. NADELMAN: Okay. BREAK VLS: We are going to start this recording back up. We took a break and it’s now about, according to my cell phone, it’s now about 10:50. And, this is a continuation of the interview of Lt. Adam Nadelman. Before we get on to the next point on the numerical list of points, or the sub bullets under #1, have any City staff told you that they felt they had been misled as it related to the fire boat or the fire station? LT. NADELMAN: Can you be specific to City staff? VLS: Well, I don’t know. Just only because you said that, point #1, the Chief has misled the community and the City staff. LT. NADELMAN: No. No one’s actually come to me and said that. VLS: What about members of the community? LT. NADELMAN: Well, it’s a fine line here between community staff. But, I’ve had Council members ask me about, you know. VLS: And what Council – who have been the Council members that have questioned either the boat or the station? LT. NADELMAN: Would be Councilman Finlay and Councilman Saad. VLS: And have these been recent inquiries or do they go back in time? LT. NADELMAN: I would say more recent they inquired on that they felt that, you know, these were things that they were misled on. VLS: And they communicated with you about that? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: And was that in writing, phone conversations, discussions, personally? LT. NADELMAN: Either personal discussion or phone conversation. I don’t speak with them often, but – VLS: I don’t know if this is an appropriate question and you don’t have to answer it. But, did you, were you under the impression that they were contacting you as a Union representative, in your capacity as the Union President or not? And think about that. LT. NADELMAN: Well, I’ll answer. I can’t tell you why they specifically contacted me. I can’t answer that. But I can tell you, from my standpoint, the only reason I spoke to them was under the Union as being Union President and not a City employee. - 29 - VLS: Thank you. LT. NADELMAN: So, any of my conversations that I had with them – VLS: That’s a capacity in which you were responding? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. That’s the capacity in how I felt to respond. Yes. VLS: Alright. Let’s go down to – and when you say recent communications. Are you saying this year, 2015? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. And probably last year as well. VLS: And any communication since the letter of October 21, 2015 was transmitted to Bill Moss and Council members? LT. NADELMAN: Any communication? VLS: With Council members about, at least the fire boat and fire station? LT. NADELMAN: Since this letter was transmitted? VLS: Yes. LT. NADELMAN: No. VLS: Let’s move on to the next sub bullet under point #1, which is new Battalion Chief – LT. NADELMAN: And, again, I want to make sure that I’m not answering incorrectly because again, I’m completely on board. I’m not trying to hide anything. I have spoken to Council members since this letter was issued, but – VLS: Those in particular points? LT. NADELMAN: Not to my knowledge about anything specific in here. VLS: Have you spoken to Council members about the letter itself? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. Five of the seven. VLS: Which members did you speak with? LT. NADELMAN: Councilman Finlay, Saad, Penniman, Heitmann and Barnett. VLS: Thank you. Let’s move on to the next bullet, which is new Battalion Chief Truck not needed. Talk to me about that. - 30 - LT. NADELMAN: So, I know that the Chief had put in to get a new Battalion Chief Truck either next year, I think it’s next year. It could be the year after. I’m not a 100% positive, but I think its next year. And, he’s made comments to me personally before, but, you know, we need to get a better looking truck and I just kind of ignore him – I don’t know what a better looking truck to him is. But, I know that the Battalion Chiefs, but I want to say, all three, but I can’t be 100% positive that they told me that they didn’t need a new truck. But I know at least my battalion chief has told Chief McInerny that is doesn’t need to be replaced and again, you would need to speak to them on that for sure to how they went about that. But I know I had before I wrote this, I had asked the city shop if they felt it needed to be replaced. And they said no as well. VLS: When you say the “city shop”, what is LT. NADELMAN: The “city shop”, I’m sorry, we call the city shop, it’s really the, they do all the repairs, work, maintenance. It’s like our own mechanics for all city trucks from garbage trucks to fire trucks to four wheelers. Everything that is owned by the city is maintained, and I say everything, I’m sure something isn’t, but to my knowledge everything, every vehicle that is owned by the city is maintained and serviced by the city shop. VLS: And who over sees the shop? What department of division? LT. NADELMAN: Facilities. I believe its facilities. VLS: Facilities. What role do they play? Facilities, if you know in the process of the fire department acquiring new vehicles. Are they a part of the process? LT. NADELMAN: To the best of my knowledge, they are supposed to be a part of any department as far as getting new vehicles. Again, how, what part they play, what part they don’t play, do they make recommendations, not make recommendations – I don’t know specifics. VLS: So who informed you from the city shop that their assessment was that the truck did not need to be replaced? LT. NADELMAN: It was Randy Bills. VLS: When was phone conversation, e-mail, in passing? LT. NADELMAN: In passing. VLS: How recently? LT. NADELMAN: Within the last two weeks. Maybe. I’m trying to think of it date wise. It is already November 9th. This is the 21st. Somewhere between there. VLS: So this conversation with Randy Bills was after the October 21 letter? - 31 - LT. NADELMAN: Yes, no no definitely. VLS: That’s good to know. LT. NADELMAN: And again, the information that was given to me prior to that, other than I know the Chief doesn’t like the way it looks, he’s told me, again. VLS: Now tell me what, I don’t understand what you mean by “Battalion Chief Truck”. Is there a truck for each of the battalions? LT. NADELMAN: No, one battalion chief truck. Battalion One is the truck and so each shift they go in that truck. So it’s really Battalion One that is the name of the vehicle. VLS: It’s used by the battalion, it’s assigned to the battalion chief for each of the shifts? LT. NADELMAN: Yes, the on duty battalion chief. VLS: Where is it housed? LT. NADELMAN: At the Administration, which is the 355 Riverside Drive, which is the key station and all of our administration. VLS: Do you every personally drive that truck? LT. NADELMAN: Every time, I would say yeah. VLS: When to your knowledge did the Chief first request that the Battalion Chief truck be replaced? LT. NADELMAN: prior. To my knowledge, he asked this year. I don’t know if he asked VLS: Has it come before counsel yet? LT. NADELMAN: I believe it has. I can’t be 100% sure. VLS: Alright. Going back to the context in which this statement was made. Do you feel that the Chief misled the community and city staff as to the need? LT. NADELMAN: Probably more city staff than community in saying it needs to be replaced. I think he wants it to be replaced. And again, these go back, probably on its own it is not a big deal. You guys asked for a new truck, but it’s all this accumulative. VLS: As far as misleading city staff, who in staff would have been – LT. NADELMAN: I would have to say whoever he told he needed a new truck to. - 32 - VLS: Do you know if any documents or picture or data, whether the Chief put anything in writing with respect to the need for a new Battalion Chief truck? LT. NADELMAN: aware. I would imagine he had to submit something in writing, but I’m not VLS: And you haven’t seen that so you don’t know if that, if there is something false or misleading in there. LT. NADELMAN: Correct, I can’t. But the fact that, and again, everything probably under this section, the fact that we don’t need it, is the misleading portion. VLS: Okay, that’s helpful. How do you think a need for apparatus should be addressed? I mean, what, why you – LT. NADELMAN: Sure, I understand the question. Why I feel it doesn’t need to be replaced and he says it does, and what makes that the deciding factor? And again, I wasn’t sure. Okay, I just know that with this specific vehicle, the Battalion Chief says I don’t know why we’re getting a new Battalion Chief vehicle. There’s not a lot of miles on it. And again, we’re a small city. It’s not used a lot. Doesn’t go outside the city. And so, I had even, I had actually inquired with the shop, kind of in a passerby way, “Hey, do you guys use some kind of method to when we replace vehicles and not replace vehicles?” And they were very non-specific about that. But, so then I asked, “Do you feel the Battalion Chief truck needs to be replaced?” Cause they are the guys that work on it, and Randy told me, he said “You know what? I don’t think it needs to be replaced.” And the Battalion Chiefs, which he reiterated to me, so he knew the Battalion Chief didn’t feel it needed to be replaced either. It doesn’t need to be replaced, so, again, I wasn’t able to get from them, ya know. Obviously, if we have a truck, and I’ll just go back, prior to getting a new ladder truck, we had an old ladder truck. It was 20 years old. It was in the shop getting repaired more than it was in service. I don’t know what kind of method they use, I don’t know if there is, if there is a set mileage or a set this or a set that so, I don’t know what is used city wide or department. I just know that according to the shop, ya know, if the truck is operating fine and there is no problems with it, and the operator isn’t having problems with it, as long as it’s not , ya know, this time frame. I don’t know the best answer to give other than I tried to find out if there was a process and there really isn’t a specific one, at least not with the Battalion Chief truck. VLS: Anything else that you want to elaborate on as far as that? LT. NADELMAN: Not really, I mean you’d really have to ask the Battalion Chiefs. They are in it every day. VLS: QRV. LT. NADELMAN: Okay, Quick Response Vehicle. VLS: Thank you. - 33 - LT. NADELMAN: I know that was your next question. VLS: So, this you believe that the Chief has misled the community and city staff about the need for – LT. NADELMAN: So this one is slightly – this was originally brought up by Council. To get a QRV. A Quick Response Vehicle. Something smaller. We have one, it’s called Rescue 2 at Station 2. They consider that a QRV and they want to get one for Station 1. Which we used to have one at Station 1 years ago and that was taken out of service and so it was brought up by Council to look into getting this type of vehicle for Station 1. VLS: So there currently is one, there is a QRV for, at Rescue 2 at Station 2. LT. NADELMAN: Rescue 2 is a QRV. That is what they are referring to. Just a smaller vehicle that can run rescue calls without bringing the big fire truck out. That’s how they look at the QRV, the Quick Response Vehicle. And so they brought it up, and so the Chief followed up with, we can look into this or doing that, and ultimately winded up purchasing one, it just got here. We don’t have the staffing for it. And I had even talked to the Chief about why we are getting this truck, because the idea through Council was, and to the best of my knowledge, you’d have to really find out more about that, that one of the members that brought up the QRV, which I thought was the one that brought up QRV was Councilman Finlay, I watched him vote to not even purchase it. For the main reason the Chief bought this truck was so that if we spent $250,000, and I don’t know the exact dollar figure. We spend $250,000 on a truck, well they would have to hire six (6) more guys to put on. VLS: Explain to me why that is the case. Understanding I don’t know how it works. LT. NADELMAN: Sure, so back to the whole personnel issue. Before when we had that QRV vehicle down at Station 1, it was staffed with two (2) people and the two (2) trucks down that had two (2) on each truck. And so basically all our engines only had two (2) people on it most of the time. So they took that truck out of service back before the Chief got here. I don’t know, sometime late 90’s, early 2000’s. I’m not sure. And they took two (2) people from that and put them on engines, so we had three (3) people on each engine. We don’t have three (3) on every engine but on those two specific engines. So this whole idea came up to get the QRV and from Council they wanted a smaller truck and possibly staff it with people from other – we don’t have people – if you move people from truck A to truck B, we have no one. The Chief knows this. He’s, what ultimately now is going to happen, I don’t know what is going to happen. This is going to be, not just in my eyes, but everybody down at the station is highly concerned with this because now the Chief has put the Department in a position where they purchased a truck, it was approved by Council. Depending on how the call comes down, and this is something that the Chief, I know is going to say, he’s already said it, “Well this is what Council wanted, this is what Council wanted.” The reason he even went through supporting and pushing this truck is so he could get extra personnel. Now, we probably are going to talk about maybe later on, maybe not, about extra - 34 - personnel. So a lot of this stuff, the Chief’s agenda, is to get more firefighters. I’m not against getting more firefighters. We’ve always been, what we consider, understaffed compared to other fire departments. So, it would be nice to have extra personnel. But, we are kinda used to not having them. Doesn’t make it right. I would love to get extra personnel. But at what cost? I don’t want to lie. I don’t want to put anyone’s life in jeopardy. I don’t want to do things that the Chief, as we go through this, the Chief has created an environment to where he would rather see something fail, or see someone get hurt or something burnt down and then say, “See, I told you we need more people.” Where, none of us are willing to do that. We are not willing to put the community at risk to get extra personnel. VLS: Okay, there are going to be some very important things that I want to be sure and cover. LT. NADELMAN: And we’ll probably get those throughout. There are definitely some sections where I will refer to that. VLS: I mean those are serious allegations. LT. NADELMAN: No absolutely. VLS: I’m going to want to understand. LT. NADELMAN: And a lot of this, and again, I don’t have that document that the Chief says, “Let someone” – who’s going to put that down on paper. No one. VLS: When was, just so if I go back to look at Council minutes or something, do you know when the issue of the QRV was before Council? LT. NADELMAN: I know we just got it. It was purchased this last fiscal year. So October, probably late 2014 or early 2015. I’m not positive. VLS: Do you know whether the – did the PSSI report address the adequacy of apparatus and facilities? LT. NADELMAN: I’m pretty sure there is a section. VLS: And you said that you haven’t been through the whole thing. Do you have reason to believe that they were provided during the course of their inquiry whether they were provided insufficient or inaccurate data as to apparatus and facilities? LT. NADELMAN: I don’t know what they were provided. VLS: And you don’t know whether you agree or disagree with their recommendations? LT. NADELMAN: While I would ultimately agree with their recommendations. Yes, having an additional QRV at Station 1 would be a good idea, but not without the staffing for it. - 35 - VLS: So was it premature to – LT. NADELMAN: Actually, I think it was intentionally premature. If they spent a quarter million dollars unless they’re going to have to give us someone to fill it. VLS: Alright. Any particular individuals that you think it would be important for me to talk to about that particular allegation with the QRV? LT. NADELMAN: No one specific that I can think of. Again, a lot of this, and I don’t know how to word that. A lot of the things that happened through the Chief’s office either involved for information purposes or whatever, the battalion chiefs – they’re the ones that because he has not, and this was in the report, there is not really administrative staff. Right? You have the Fire Chief and the three Battalion Chiefs. Now you have the training chief and the fire marshal but the three Battalion Chiefs have been there twenty plus years. They all have assignments, staff functions, Chief generally works into the budget. Chief DiMaria works on the budget, Chief Nichols does the reports and things like that. All of them have specific assignments that they are responsible for. So, they deal with him a lot on that. I would imagine, and I can’t speak for any of them on this specific item of what the Chief, if he had relayed his intentions to them or not. But they would definitely be, they definitely are the ones that are gonna probably be able to vet most of this stuff for you. As long as they are allowed to, I guess. VLS: Just in terms of administrative functions, this has nothing to do with this bullet point – Battalion Chief DiMaria has a special administrative function regarding budget process? LT. NADELMAN: No, he does the budget. VLS: Oh he does the budget. And Nichols has special administrative responsibilities regarding reporting? LT. NADELMAN: He does a lot of the reports. He’s in charge of the Image Trend, and tell the staff a lot of the computer programing stuff, the mobile computer and things like that. VLS: And the third battalion chief is – LT. NADELMAN: Tim Bruener. VLS: And what is Bruener’s – if he has a distinct administrative task – LT. NADELMAN: I’m sure he does, but I’m not sure what he’s responsible for. Oh he does, I’m sorry, he – cause we do send all our deficiency lists for the apparatus, I guess the liaison between the shop. So he does a lot of the apparatus stuff. VLS: Okay, you just mentioned something that might be important. apparatus report is produced, deficiencies? - 36 - What sort of LT. NADELMAN: Okay, every Monday, all the trucks that are assigned to operations and their trailers, we do pump checks and maintenance a trailer, every shift. So whatever shift, Monday is A Shift, then B Shift and C Shift and so forth. There is a deficiency list of what’s wrong with the trucks. And we put that down on a list and send them to Battalion Chief Bruener. Then those get forwarded to the city shop. VLS: Do you know whether “on their way” that deficiency list goes across the Chief’s desk before it gets to the shop? If you know. LT. NADELMAN: I have no idea. I know we don’t send it to the Chief. VLS: Anything else that you want to provide me about the allegation that Chief misled the community and city staff by creating a misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities? LT. NADELMAN: Nothing that I can think of at this time. VLS: And no additional documentation that you can put your hands on? Is there anything I mean that you brought with you where you want to show me on that point? LT. NADELMAN: No. VLS: Okay, let’s move on to Point #2 from your October 21, 2015 letter which is “The Department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity.” You’ve listed a number of bullet points under that. Are they in any particular order? LT. NADELMAN: No. VLS: Let’s go to the first one. “The ordered members of the department directly or through LT. NADELMAN: That should say “the Chief ordered” VLS: Okay what should this say? LT. NADELMAN: “The Chief” VLS: Okay so there is a word missing. The first bullet point should say, “The Chief ordered members of the department directly or through the chain of command to change reports that are actual Hazardous Conditions to Building Fire calls.” And you go on to talk about that. But before we get to that, the reports that you are referring to, could you be more descriptive of what those reports are called? LT. NADELMAN: Sure. The next sentence “These calls have been coded correctly for years prior to the chief’s arrival and there are specific categories in the NFIRS codes for them.” NFIRS being National Fire Incident Reporting System. Even though we used - 37 - Image Trend, before that we used a different system, other departments use other systems but NFIRS refers to standardized coding system in the State of Florida. VLS: Is that a required coding system that is generally accepted and required? LT. NADELMAN: 9somthing. Yes, every single call gets an NFIRS number. They go from 100 – VLS: Are there within the NFIRS codes, are there set procedures for the coding? LT. NADELMAN: I wish there was something I could provide for you. VLS: Yeah, if there is something, do you want to take down any notes of anything you want to send me? LT. NADELMAN: Yes, I will do that. VLS: Piece of paper? LT. NADELMAN: I have it. Okay so, each call, for example, one of the most popular calls, is a rescue call. And most rescue calls are 321. It’s the code number for it. 321 refers to a rescue call, ya know I’m going to stick with these codes that we are referring to so I guess it will be easier for you to understand. VLS: Oh the particular ones that you’ve mentioned? LT. NADELMAN: So a fire call, is the 100’s. From 100 to I guess 199. It doesn’t have a 199. And so, if it’s a call in the 100. 111 is a building fire. Okay so if you have a building that’s on fire, it’s pretty self-explanatory. It’s a building fire. And so when you are doing your code, you are doing your report, you would code that as a 111 in your drop down screen for instant type. And a building fire is 111 whether you work here or Panama City or anywhere in Florida. VLS: It should be standard. LT. NADELMAN: I would image national, it is the whole nation. 111 is a 111 anywhere. So, the codes are very specific whether it be rubbish fire or trash fire – there are codes for everything. It could be assist police in the 600’s or 500’s. So that will have a code 621, assist police. So say the police called us out for something that was, we didn’t really do anything, but we were helping them with something. You would code it that number. VLS: You still code it. LT. NADELMAN: So, even if we have a call that gets dispatched and then cancelled in route, there is a code for that. VLS: So every call needs to be coded. - 38 - LT. NADELMAN: those codes. Every call has a three digit NFIRS code. I can give you a list of VLS: Who takes the initial call and codes it? LT. NADELMAN: Whoever does the report. VLS: Who typically does a report? LT. NADELMAN: We talked about that earlier. Depending on the truck that goes, and what the incident was. I just used my truck as an example. Engine 2 if it is a rescue call that we are running, usually our jump fire fighter will do that call. VLS: Oh yes, you did tell me that. LT. NADELMAN: If it’s a fire alarm or a hazardous condition, the driver will usually do it. If it’s anything in a 100, I always do it. VLS: When is the coding first done? LT. NADELMAN: When you get back and do the report. VLS: And that is requirement that it be coded. LT. NADELMAN: Yes, if you didn’t put a code in, it would give you a red flag. VLS: Have you received any training on the coding process? Or direction from the Department? That’s kinda leading into the next part. LT. NADELMAN: For the most part, I mean when you get hired, and you are taught how to do reports, they go over the codes and you know, you run a call, depending on the reference of the call, is what you do, and it is fairly self-explanatory. There is a category for almost everything. So, we’re really on the job training. The NFIRS book is, I dunno, bigger than a dictionary. It’s pretty thick. Each code has an explanation of what that code should be next to it. VLS: You are saying that Chief ordered members of the department or directly or through the chain of command to change reports? LT. NADELMAN: Correct. VLS: That are actual Hazardous Conditions to Building Fire calls. Now explain to me the different in coding a Hazardous Conditions. LT. NADELMAN: I wish I had brought the printed sheet of that. And I did have one too and I don’t know. Okay so. VLS: I mean I can go directly to the source, but what is the significance of – - 39 - LT. NADELMAN: Okay so, we get a call for, it could be anything, a smell of smoke, a fire alarm that went off, just whatever, and you get there and as soon as you walk in the door. I can smell it’s like an electrical which we have a lot of those. You walk in, I can smell it. You know you walk in the room, you get a call on 911, the smoke detector went off and so you have to figure out what’s causing it. Generally, 99% of the time it’s either a light ballast or an a/c motor, or the fan belt. You might have smelt that electrical odor, you know what I’m referring to. So, you’ll go find out what it is. Light ballast. We do a lot of a/c motors that get hot, over heat, the belt broke, and it caused the odor. So you find out what it is, okay not problem, come back. Get to the station. Do the report. And there is a hazardous conditions are all 400’s. It starts at 400 and ends at 499. There is no 499, but. There is a specific code for that right in the NFIRS. Overheated motor. Okay, there was no fire, just maybe a little smoke from it getting hot, but there was not fire. For years, an overheated motor section, you put it down. So when the Chief started here in 2009, he, I would say within the first year, he would start calling either of the battalion chiefs. Originally it was through the battalion chiefs. All of the battalion chiefs. At that time, you had Chief Nichols and Chief DiMaria whom I’ve spoke of as well. And then there is also Chief Vogel who’s retired. Tom Vogel. Are you aware that he sent the city a letter? VLS: I am. That has been furnished to me. LT. NADELMAN: Okay, I brought a copy cause it was given to me as well. VLS: Then we can go over that as well with input. LT. NADELMAN: So, he was the battalion chief for A Shift at the time. And we were getting calls. Hey, you guys just ran that call at such and such address? Yeah. The Chief wants you to change it to a building fire. Well there was no fire, it was just an overheated motor or a short circuit. The Chief says he wants it this way. Well, that’s not what it was. Well this is what he wants. And those calls started happening on a regular basis between all three shifts. As I said, these calls originally came from the battalion chiefs. VLS: From the Chief to the Battalion Chiefs. LT. NADELMAN: Chief McInerny. I’d get a call from Chief DiMaria or someone would get a call from Chief Vogel or someone would get a call from their battalion chief saying Chief McInerny wants that to be changed to a building fire. And so it became a regular occurrence where you would be like, listen, these are not but he wants it this or he wants it that. I even did, and you’ll see, in the sub-bullet point here, 2005-2008 which is prior to Chief McInerny being here, four years, we had actual fire calls, those are the 100’s. They could be a 111, 112 or whatever. There was 200 in that four year period. And Hazardous Condition calls there were 710. VLS: Where did you get the data to put in here. LT. NADELMAN: Right from our reporting system. - 40 - VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: Chief Nichols is in charge of reports. He could easily probably pull that for you. So then after the Chief got hired, 2010 – 2013, that four year period there was 320 fire calls and 573 Hazardous Conditions. So the different, the next sub, the four years prior to the Chief coming to the City, there was 120 more fire calls and 137 less hazardous conditions. Almost transparent. I can see them being 17 over a four year difference, so you’re are looking at, we’re just recoding differently. We’re running the same calls. VLS: What’s the significance of the recoding? Are they being categorized as a more serious code? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. There are …hold on one second. BREAK – 11:30 a.m. – 11: 34 a.m. VLS: We were before taking the break, you were talking to me about the nature of the recoding and what effect that has or impact. LT. NADELMAN: Correct. So the Chief was ordering members that were doing the reports to change them from the 400 Hazardous Condition to a 100 which is a fire call. Like I said, in the summer, you can see over that 2 four year period there is 120 more fire calls and 137 less hazardous conditions. We didn’t receive 120 more fire calls. We just were coding them differently. And the numbers being almost identical over a four year period. Now the Chief’s goal in this and his purpose in this is to say we have more fire calls, we need more people. Again, I’d like to have more personnel. I’m not saying we don’t need more personnel. But, you know, part of being a fire fighter, and of good moral character and integrity and what he is doing is he’s shuffling these numbers around. And he’s been questioned by council members specifically about why do we have so many more fire calls. Are we reporting things differently? And he sat there, recorded on TV, in front of Council and telling them, “No, there must be something wrong. I don’t know why. Nothing is different.” VLS: Do you know when that Council meeting was? LT. NADELMAN: There was more than one. It’s happened numerous times. I am sure, like I said, we could probably find specifics and I could probably do some research for you to get that. But, and again, if you watch council meetings, the City of Naples (inaudible), you know this is kind of a regular thing, a battle between Chief and Council, well some of them, about these items. Again, if he went up there said, “Listen, these are the way I feel these need to be coded, and I’ve changed the way we do our coding.” VLS: But he has not done that. Wrong or indifferent. Agree or not agree with him, we would at least be forthright and he’s not. His lack of integrity. And the problem with this is, again, when you take one little thing, it’s not a big deal, but it’s to the point, again, when you look at the City and - 41 - you have all these residents’ blogs, e-mails, written Naples Daily News articles about, you know, you are calling into question the whole department. It’s not like they are calling into question the Chief. You get these people that, you know, it just rubs off where we are being, and I can’t speak for what someone thinks, but to us, it makes the department as whole look bad. And, for the lack of integrity from one individual. And everybody that works the fire department, 55 operations personnel knows this happens. Chief orders you to change the report and of course you change your report. Alright, what’s the big deal, it’s one report. But after a while, look at the four year difference you can see when you actually take numbers and compare them, you can see that. And now he’s using this as a means to try and look busier, we’re running more calls, we’re running more fires. Fires go up and down all the time. No one knows what’s going to happen, if we did we wouldn’t be here. But to lie about it. To lie about it and the lack of integrity, like I said, for us it’s just one of those things that piles right back on top of it. VLS: I want to understand more about the coding. The reports. Initially the report is completed by a designated person on the unit the is responding. LT. NADELMAN: Yes, someone that runs the call. VLS: What happens? That report is coded into the NFIRS. LT. NADELMAN: Image Track. VLS: Then, where does anyone review it? Is there a protocol for reviewing that initial report? LT. NADELMAN: Take just a regular hazardous condition call. One that is basic, like a power line, or a transformer blows, gets struck by lightning, power line down. Right, so there is a code for power line, in the ledger code. The driver does the report. Sometime during the shift I will check the report, look at it, lock it. Tie it to his recap. VLS: And you will be the one to lock it because you are the Lieutenant? LT. NADELMAN: I’m the officer, supervisor of the station. Suppose its Station 1, the officer who checks it down there will do that. VLS: Then the next step – LT. NADELMAN: Okay then the battalion chiefs, all they do, for the most part, they take the reports and make sure that they are done. Okay, we had a call #501 to 520, yep they are all here. They are all locked. Puts them on the recap. Then, back before I spoke, and you wrote down in your notes, Chief Nichols, Lt. Howard, and Steve Kofsky, they, and I don’t know how they do it, but, so they will go review very specific, they will go over every single call, check every little box, the times, the this the that. If the times seem off, they will want you to check or they will check on it somehow. They basically take that and finalize it. - 42 - VLS: Do they ever come back and question during their role in the process whatever it is, do they come back and question coding? LT. NADELMAN: example. They can. I mean, they have before. I’m trying to think of an VLS: What information would LT. NADELMAN: I’ll give you an example of something that they’ve done on a regular basis. So you might put on your reference, cancelled in route. But you have an on scene time. Now, I don’t think you can do that anymore. So how can you have a reference that’s cancelled in route but you have an on scene time? VLS: There is a discrepancy that is obvious from the report itself. LT. NADELMAN: So they will say, listen, you either need to fix this or fix that. So things like that. Things that don’t jive, per se. VLS: Now, is there some narrative that is prepared in the report beyond coding. LT. NADELMAN: Yes, every report has a narrative. VLS: And the narrative is, again, completed by the reporter? LT. NADELMAN: Person doing the report. Yes. Now there is two types of calls that get narratives. And so, there is a medical call and a non-medical call. If it’s not a medical call, it’s a non-medical call. It’ll be 100, 200, 300, 400 whatever. The medical calls are generally 321. Those are the calls that I’m referring to. There is a whole section of 300’s, and 321 specifically. And because there is someone that specifically only checks that. So the Nichols, Howard and Kofsky, they will check that 321, but that narrative is going to say, “See PC” or “Dispatch to seizure, see PCR” (patient care report). Now there is a separate image track reporting system that only the guys that are in charge of HIPPAA check that. So those are medical reports only and they really don’t VLS: And what you are referring to this first bullet point under #2 relates to nonmedical? LT. NADELMAN: Correct, those are strictly fire calls, which are 100’s and hazardous conditions which are 400’s. VLS: Does anyone check to see if the narrative is consistent with the coding? Would that be something you would do when you are the one that is, I think you’re words were “locking it down”? LT. NADELMAN: Yes, I look at the narrative when I am not doing the report to make sure. Some might look a little more in detail if it’s a call, I want something to be added - 43 - in there. But for the most part, yeah I’m sure you’ll, and again, there are now some 2010 narratives that don’t jive with the coding. VLS: And that would be something that someone who is experienced with the NFIRS system would recognize that there is a discrepancy? LT. NADELMAN: I guess if you read the narrative and looked at the code. VLS: I mean I’m not qualified, I know I’m not. LT. NADELMAN: Sure, sure. I’m not even sure how to answer this. It’s one of those things that where, if. I know if I receive a call saying that the Chief wants you to change this to a 111, and as soon as you change it to a 111, now there are other pages that pull down that have to be filled out as well. It’s not just, there are additional pages that have to be filled out. VLS: So in other words, generally. LT. NADELMAN: The lower the number, the more - VLS: The less paperwork. LT. NADELMAN: No, no – more! The lower the number, the worse the hazard. VLS: And the worse the hazard, the more paperwork under this system. LT. NADELMAN: Sure, and again, when I say more paperwork, it’s just an additional page that you are filling out, depending on the call. VLS: Is there some means of tracking changes that are made in the reports per the request of a battalion chief or the chief. LT. NADELMAN: Chief Nichols would be able to answer that, I have no idea. VLS: He would know where there is some kind of audit trail? LT. NADELMAN: That’s his thing, is the reports. VLS: To your knowledge, has anyone within the department kept any type of record of the requests for changes in coding? LT. NADELMAN: I believe, in conversations with Chief Nichols and Chief DiMaria, that they both have, and I don’t know what, e-mails or whatever from the Chief indicating something of that fact. And again, there is no directly an e-mail sent to Chief DiMaria who forwards to me that says, “Chief DiMaria, I want Lt. Nadelman to change this to a 111.” None of that that I am aware of. But I believe there are some documents that both those battalion chiefs have that indicate the Chief wants us to use the lowest numbers possible. - 44 - VLS: But they would be the ones to ask? LT. NADELMAN: Yes, and as well, and I think it’s even in here. From the next bullet point, about something to that effect. VLS: Did anyone that you are aware of, within the department, question the process? LT. NADELMAN: I know, this is going back so I don’t have a specific time, but I had made comment to the Chief the one day that I was acting battalion chief, and it was in reference to one of the council members asking him about why the difference in calls. I had made a comment like, “Why don’t you just explain to them that we change the way we do reports?” and he snapped at me and said, “We don’t change, I don’t know what you are talking about.” And I just ignored him. Now, in the beginning, a lot of that was directed through the chain of command. So that, I don’t know what the battalion chief said to him about that. VLS: Have you been directed, have you personally been direct by the Chief, either verbally or in writing, to change coding? LT. NADELMAN: As acting battalion chief, he has in the past, we have a call for whatever, the smell of smoke that wound up not being a fire, where I would come back, and so of course it would come back as an odor of smoke, so as soon as you come back, it hey, what was that call? He would ask. I would tell him it was just a fan or a belt or something, make sure to code that as a 100. That’s what he’d say. He has said that directly to me. VLS: Now is it your position that these are non-debatable, this isn’t a gray line that the coding is clear under - ? LT. NADELMAN: Some of them might be, but the majority of them, and again, when we take another break, I’m going to run to the station real quick and print out the numbers so you can see them. VLS: Okay, thank you. LT. NADELMAN: They are very specific. Why would you have NFIRS code for an over-heated motor if that was supposed to be a fire? Some are very specific. VLS: Did the Chief ever indicate that he believed that calls had been incorrectly coded before he came on board? LT. NADELMAN: Not to me. It’s always been, these are the way things need to be coded. Not they were coded incorrectly before. VLS: But you are saying he has represented to Council that there has been no change in the way things are coded? LT. NADELMAN: Correct. - 45 - VLS: And that’s one of the things that you were saying is a lie. LT. NADELMAN: Oh clearly. He knows, I mean, he’s asked us to change reports. And he has been told that this is not the way things are supposed to be and VLS: By whom? LT. NADELMAN: I want to say, but you know what, I can’t really speak for the battalion chiefs. But I know it’s been brought to his attention by the battalion chiefs as least in the beginning that this was not a fire, these are not fires. No, it’s “this is what I want is coded as.” And like I said, I made the comment to him before, “Why don’t we just tell them that they were coded incorrectly, if you feel that they were coded incorrectly, then say that.” Now, I didn’t say that word for word but. And he said, “we don’t know code things incorrectly, I don’t know what you are talking about.” VLS: What, the increase in the number of fire calls and hazardous conditions is significant – LT. NADELMAN: The increase in fire calls and the reduction in hazardous conditions. VLS: I’m sorry, yes. What impact does that have on apparatus, well I guess this relates to – LT. NADELMAN: Well it all ultimately relates to all of it. Because the Chief is saying, we have more fires, we need more people. VLS: So the statistics are something that are used to justify changes in – LT. NADELMAN: Yes, that he uses to try and justify. VLS: Do you know whether PSSI looked at coding? Let me put it this way, do you know if anyone within the fire department brought to the attention of one of the PSSI team members a concern over coding? LT. NADELMAN: I don’t. I know I didn’t. VLS: And I would need to talk to Nichols to get specifics, or to find out whether those changes in the instructions were something that can be demonstrated in an audit trail? LT. NADELMAN: Correct. VLS: Anything you want to talk with me about on that bullet point? LT. NADELMAN: No. VLS: The next bullet point, and this is ordered under #2 about misrepresentation and exaggerations with regard to fire calls, damage, and intensity and you state that, again, this is the Chief has ordered members through chain of command to dramatically increase damage values on fire reports. Okay. - 46 - LT. NADELMAN: Now, I know I have had calls where we have had actual fire calls where the Chief had, well I shouldn’t say the Chief. Where the dollar value that I originally put in, and I wish I had numbers but I don’t, was changed. And the reason I know they were changed is because my battalion chief saw me, and the Chief had us change the whatever, $100,000 to a million. I mean, where I am talking. Now I’m not a contractor, I’m not a construction guy. My battalion chief happens to be in the construction stuff so, if I say, “hey, what do you think it’s going to cost to replace this?” ah you know the cabinets, about this much, okay sounds good. Now again, these are, I guess you could look at them either way. It’s someone’s assumption. It ultimately is someone’s assumption until the insurance company comes in. But, I know recently, and so on the sub-bullet points to this, I put on a regular basis the Chief orders members to change dollar loss on fire calls to increase the amount. Generally, he’ll say, “just put this number down”. And that’s what you are going to put down. And it’s definitely higher than what most people, cause it’s a joke, like “hey you know that fire we had the other day? Yeah. You know what the Chief told us to put down for that? I dunno what?” and then he just throws out some crazy number. Ultimately, I guess that’s his opinion. I don’t know. VLS: How does that, is that something that he communicates by text, by e-mail, or is it all by call? LT. NADELMAN: No, everything is verbal. Now, I can tell you that with the next subbullet point, that this is something recently that I know that it became – recently Battalion Chief DiMaria called fire station 2 and told me that Chief McInerny just had him change about 25 reports. Now this was in the last month. Maybe two months. And the reason he called me was because Steve Kofsky, who is in charge of reports. He was on training so he was working that day. So we got on the speaker phone and basically, he has already sent the data for these reports to the State. And now, he had to go, and I wrote (?) State Fire Marshall’s office, but I’m not exactly sure who at the State Fire Marshall’s office. We are on the speaker phone, and Chief DiMaria said, cause we were both in the room, he said, “Hey, I need Steve to change the reports.” And I said, “Well, let me get him in here.” So I called him in and put him on speaker phone. And he said, “Did these already get sent to the State?” Whatever the dates were, I don’t remember. And Chief DiMaria has a copy of those 25 reports. He has an e-mail or I don’t know how it is. He said that, he told us, the Chief was just sitting behind him in the office and making him change all of these reports. And so, it’s not, it’s to the point where he’s making Chief DiMaria enter them as he sits there, not change that to this, change that to that. And again, I wasn’t there so he would definitely be one that could speak specifically about that. I just know the phone call to me. He wanted Kofsky to do whatever he had to do to get these numbers changed to the State. VLS: Tell me, I don’t know if the process is the same for reporting damage values as it is for coding. Is the damage value initially entered by the same person who does the coding in responding to call? LT. NADELMAN: Generally, we put something in there. Now there are times when it’s not. What I will do, if for some reason we had something, ya know, if I’m trying to - 47 - find the value of something, I go right to Collier Appraiser.com and look at the appraised value of the home. That’s just a common sense thing. If I want to get square footage, it has a lot of information in there. So, cause there is a pre-incident value and a post. A pre-incident value is easy. I go to Collier Appraiser. If I am doing one, I go to Collier Appraiser. Whatever that says is what I put in. Now if it gets changed after that, I don’t know. I wouldn’t image the pre-incident value does get changed, but again, I don’t know. But say you have something that major, major damage. You might leave that blank, especially if it still under investigation. So, but generally, there is a rule of thumb that you put something in there. And again, it’s usually, it’s not one person’s opinion. If it’s a big report Lt. Chief will do it. And so, I know myself and most people, they will, Hey, they will call the battalion chief, Hey, I’m doing the report from yesterday. What do you think about repairs that I was thinking this, and then --- ehhh that’s about right or let’s do… Usually the battalion chief or lt. of the report will come up with a VLS: Okay so there may be some collaboration. LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: And when does the figure first get locked down, I think were your words. LT. NADELMAN: Well, if I lock a report, anybody can change it, unlock it or change it. VLS: Yes, but it is initially generally locked. LT. NADELMAN: To me if it’s nothing major, I will just put it in when I do the report. VLS: Is this is the same report, is this reflected on the same report that the – LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: Okay, I’m just going to finish the question, you know what I’m going to ask. LT. NADELMAN: Oh sorry. I’m sorry. VLS: This is the same report that has the coding on it? So this incident report, it has the coding of the type of call, that you’ve explained to me, and it also has a dollar value and it goes through the same process of being, going to Nichols? LT. NADELMAN: To the battalion chief. VLS: To the battalion chief. LT. NADELMAN: And then to the group that does the report check. VLS: And do you know when and how the Chief gets, I mean he has access to those once they are locked down? LT. NADELMAN: Absolutely. - 48 - VLS: As far as changes in dollar value, is it your understanding that he is directing the change before it gets to Nichol’s department? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. Because it is usually changed within a day. Generally, if any changes are made by the direction of the Chief, it is done within the first couple days. Where is in the Nichols department with Howard and Kofsky, they are the last stop before it goes to the State. Which is why Chief DiMaria called me and needed Kofsky, to find out if Kofsky had sent these to the State already because they needed to be changed. You can change them all you want, if they are already sent to the State, the State already has that data. VLS: Is it your position that the Chief does not have the authority to request changes in property value or in damage value? If you have an opinion on it. LT. NADELMAN: Say it one more time? VLS: Is it your position that the Chief should not be reviewing and making any changes or is it that – LT. NADELMAN: I think the Chief absolutely should be reviewing it. You know if you have a major incident, the Chief should review it. But reviewing something and making it higher than, what I say, over inflating. If I put down a million dollars, and the Chief says it’s probably more like $1,100,000, ya know, okay, it’s a million dollar home, I’m off $100,000. But when you are taking say, a kitchen and so you are looking at cabinets to be replaced, painting, dry wall, and you go okay, well what’s a new kitchen going to cost. $80 grand? $100,000? Its upscale, maybe granite. $150,000? Then the Chief comes back and says, “Oh no, that’s ¾ of a million dollars. VLS: So you’re contending that this is false, its purposeful inflation. Not a difference of opinion. LT. NADELMAN: Correct. VLS: When did this practice of inflation – asking or ordering through the chain of command that dollar losses be changed, or inflated rather. When did that begin? LT. NADELMAN: Probably, I would say within the first year the Chief got here. VLS: So this is an ongoing practice that has – LT. NADELMAN: Sure. And again, when you’re talking about fires like that, we don’t have a lot of them, you know. So, when you do have them, you know, the Chief’s always there and then so he puts his, I’m guess his opinion, it’s ultimately his opinion, but sometimes it’s very obvious that, you know. VLS: Is there any particular example that you can think of now that it would – LT. NADELMAN: Not specifically. - 49 - VLS: Alright. And this, the third sub bullet point, when Battalion Chief DiMaria called you – LT. NADELMAN: That’s the second. VLS: Is that the second? LT. NADELMAN: Second. VLS: That occurred – LT. NADELMAN: Within the last two months. VLS: Let’s just take a moment to decide. Do you want a break for, and we can do it at any time. Did you want to take a short break for lunch? LT. NADELMAN: I’ll leave that up to you. VLS: How about we try to get through the next three points under point #2. LT. NADELMAN: Finish #2? Sure, that’s fine with me. VLS: Yes, and then we’ll break. I’m looking at the next bullet point on your outline which is: Fire Department personnel were ordered directly or through the chain of command not to say “Fire Out’ over the radio right away on fire calls. This is to make it appear that the fires seemed to last longer than they actually did. LT. NADELMAN: Just a slight, just kind of an FYI on that. Generally, there are orders you give on a fire. So you have a fire, when you have a fire and you have, any fire type calls, but I want to specify just fires. So if you have something that’s on fire and you get, the first arrival unit gets on scene, they give a size up. You know, size up consists of two-story residential structure, nothing showing, smoke showing, flames showing, whatever it might be. It’s very, your size up is generally the first thing that happens. VLS: And who is making – LT. NADELMAN: The first officer. Generally, unless the Battalion Chief gets there first, generally it is the lieutenant on the first arriving engine probably 90% of the time. VLS: And this reporting is going over the radio? LT. NADELMAN: Over the radio. Correct. VLS: To? LT. NADELMAN: To Naples, to Dispatch Center. VLS: Okay, to the Dispatch Center. - 50 - LT. NADELMAN: But, now, anybody responding also hears it. So, if you have a fire, you know, you’re going to go through different, depending on the size of the fire, different tactical objectives. Everybody gets there and the Battalion Chief, when he gets on scene, he takes command over. VLS: So the Battalion Chief is giving the orders upon arrival from that point forward to dispatch? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: What are – is – I guess there is no usual sequence of orders? LT. NADELMAN: Well, in general, for just a regular kind of house fire, so the first arriving engine will get on scene. They will give a size up and take command. Start doing whatever, whether it’s pulling a line or getting, you know, people evacuated, whatever it might be. The Battalion Chief gets on scene, he assumes command and will assign unit’s function. You know, engine 1 you’ll be operations or you’ll be in charge of this or in charge of that. So, some orders, standard orders, probably nationally, you know, is primary search, extinguishing, ventilation, fire under control, fire out. Those are kind of standard things that – VLS: And are those, do those have a universal – in the fire industry, do they have a universal meaning? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: What is the universal meaning of fire out? LT. NADELMAN: Means the fire is out. I mean it’s as basic as, you know, you’ve extinguished the fire. There is no fire. Where the difference from fire under control is say, we had a fire in this room and we came in and, you know, we didn’t put the fire out, but were able to get it under control, confine it to this room. You know, we know this is concrete ceilings so it didn’t extend through the ceiling, so you know, we have the fire under control, we need additional hose line or whatever, so, but fire out is the fire is out. VLS: And the calls, these calls are made over the radio and is there, there’s a transcript? I mean there’s a record that’s kept? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. Sure. So if I get on scene and I’m inside and we find a trashcan fire, small fire. Put it out, I mean it’s done. And I say, you know, command engine 2, fire’s out. All communications on the radio, dispatch is putting in and they’re all time stamped. So it doesn’t have to be communications to dispatch as much as they’re hearing that. But generally when you say fire’s out, then the Battalion Chief or the commander, whoever that is, will say Naples be advised fire is out. Sometimes I want like, if it’s a small little trashcan fire, I might not say fire over the radio, you know put it out and then, you know, if the Chief was standing right here, you know the Commander, I’d be like, hey it’s out, you know and then he’ll come over here and just say fire’s out. Because he could be close to me. Car fire, same thing. You know, we’re - 51 - outside so he’s standing 20 feet, 100 feet from me. He sees that the fire’s out, sees we popped the hood and there’s no more fire. He might just say, Naples, command the fire is out. VLS: What is the significance of the fire out call? LT. NADELMAN: Just advising that there’s no more fire. VLS: I mean in terms of statistic, what is its significance, if any? LT. NADELMAN: There’s – it’s just something that’s done over the fire service. And, so specifically with this, this has never came to me from Chief McInerny. Chief DiMaria came to me, he’s my Battalion Chief is why he came to me one day and told me, listen, Chief said you know, he doesn’t want us saying fire out on the radio anymore. He wants it coming right from me, being the Battalion Chief, and he told me that the Chief wants us to not say fire on the radio until we’re cleaning up hose. That was word for word from Chief DiMaria to me. VLS: When was that conveyed to you by Chief DiMaria? LT. NADELMAN: Quite some time ago. VLS: Like, not this year? LT. NADELMAN: Not this year. VLS: Not 2015? LT. NADELMAN: No. And, now as Acting Battalion Chief, it’s never been relayed to me that way from Chief McInerny. But on A shift, which comes to relieve me in the morning, the day that it had happened to me, I had mentioned it to Lt. Pecar who is the A shift lieutenant at Station 2, which is why I specifically put on there and I say, hey, do you know what Chief DiMaria told me yesterday? And I told him. And he goes, oh, well Chief Vogel told me the same thing. So, I don’t if anyone else was told that. I know, both, and Gerry’s also, Gerry Pecar, Lt. Pecar, is also the Acting Battalion Chief on his shift as well. VLS: So this would have occurred at least when Vogel was still employed by the department? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: And when did he leave? LT. NADELMAN: I do not recall. VLS: Do you know of any other people that, I mean I know you don’t have personal knowledge, this is hearsay, but you’ve indicated that at least two – - 52 - LT. NADELMAN: Two shifts. VLS: Two shifts – LT. NADELMAN: Were relayed by their Battalion Chiefs. I don’t know if it was – the only other shift left would be B shift and I don’t know if that was transpired through them. We had a fire back in February of this year that was a C shift fire that I know I went to Chief DiMaria. We were talking about something and he said, oh hold on. It’s been long enough. I can say fire out over the radio now. And he went to Naples and said fire out. It was a joke to me, but, so even though this happened a long time ago, this is still – and again, going back to why would you want to do that because – the only reason that the Chief would relay that to us – why would he want to make it look like the fire – alright, if you got the call at 6AM and you said fire out over the radio at 6:05, well that was just a little five minute fire. So, if you got the call at 6:00 and you didn’t say fire out until 6:30, now it looks like it was this huge big fire that it really wasn’t. And again, why? I can only tell you it’s because he wants to create this, this need of – and again, we do need, I think personally, my own opinion, we need more personnel. I’m not denying that. But I don’t want to lie and make up things that aren’t true. And so that’s what he’s doing. And it’s just, it’s another lack of integrity. It’s why are you – listen. If they’re not going to give us more people, because we need more people, then let’s [illegible]. You know I can’t force them to. They pay the bills, they hire, they fire, they determine how many people we have. VLS: Is there any – are you aware of any documents and by documents, I’m also referring to text messages or anything else that would support or document this issue of the Fire Chief saying not to say fire out? LT. NADELMAN: Not directly from the Chief. The only place that I’ve ever seen that written was in a recent letter I received from Chief Vogel. VLS: Is that the letter that we were talking about earlier? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: It was the letter he sent to, I think, Bill Moss? LT. NADELMAN: He sent to Bill Moss and I believe Roger Reinke. And, I have a copy of it with me. I brought a copy for you, but you have a copy. VLS: I do. LT. NADELMAN: So, and there’s a few things in here. So I read this. He says FFIR, I think he mean NFR. Back in the day they called them FFIRs. Chief Vogel mentions the fire out in here and he mentions the, I believe, the increase in our fire reports or how we report fires now. So, it’s really the only thing I’ve ever seen written from someone. And, I know, I can tell you Chief Vogel, I started in 1995 and Chief Vogel was a Battalion Chief then. He hasn’t been a Union member for as long as I know. And, so, - 53 - he retired in October 2012. So the fire out could have been, you know, come in at that, so, before October 2012. You asked me that question earlier. VLS: Yes. Do you know whether PSSi when they did their report, looked at how and when orders were given? LT. NADELMAN: I’m not aware. VLS: Are you aware of anyone who advised PSSi if they asked or if it was in the scope of their report of this issue? LT. NADELMAN: I don’t know. I had very limited contact with PSSi. They came by Fire Station 2 one day, spoke to us with the Chief and then I had spoke directly with Brian Cummings. He had a small meeting with me about, you know, labor management issues. VLS: Let’s go to the next bullet point which is: The Chief has told members of the Department that we should allow fires to grow and not put them out so fast or even just let the property burn down. LT. NADELMAN: So, now this goes, this is again, this is all what he said, things he said. And, it’s specific to Battalion Chiefs and Acting Battalion Chiefs. And so, my sub bullet there is the Chief has made numerous comments to all the Battalion Chiefs and Acting Battalion Chiefs indicating that we should have a lack luster performance and not be so aggressive on fires. VLS: So you are an Acting Battalion Chief at times. LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: And did you hear the Chief make such a comment? LT. NADELMAN: Absolutely. VLS: On more than one occasion? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. And with me, you know, he’s made, you know, several comments on, you know, we really need to burn something down to the ground to prove to these people that, you again, I’m not [illegible], I’m just, I’m being general, that you know, to prove to the Council that we need more people. Now going back to that, just a slight history. I’d say we’ve always been understaffed in our opinion for most of the whole department in comparison to, not just national standards, but just our surrounding departments. No one around here runs less than three people on an engine and we run two on an engine a lot. We only run one on our 95 foot aerial lot [illegible], you know, we need staffing. But, it’s been that way forever. And, it doesn’t make it right, but we’ve always been, because we don’t have a lot of people, we’ve always been very aggressive. We don’t burn a lot of things to the ground. We get in, you know, we’re a - 54 - very aggressive department. We always have been. It’s just the nature of how we do things. VLS: Do you agree that the standard, I think I saw that PSSi had recommended a staffing of three per unit, for apparatus? LT. NADELMAN: Three per truck with an officer on each. VLS: Do you, I mean is that – LT. NADELMAN: I absolutely agree with it. Again, I don’t disagree that we need more people and we should have three on every truck. I know there are people that do disagree with that. Not in our department, but you know, I guess people that pay the bill. But, again, I am not going to let something burn to the ground because I don’t have three people. I am not going to risk life or property to get an agenda. And, this is – when I started hearing comments about this, you know, from the Chief, and hearing the Battalion Chiefs talk about it, is really when it started to concern me. A lot. VLS: Well, this allegation is important, so I want to try at least on – to the extent that you have direct knowledge because you heard it, I want to be as specific as possible. Can you give me the context within which the Chief made such a comment to you? I mean, was it in response to a particular incident? LT. NADELMAN: Well, the next sub bullet below is, was not just specific, but there was three other people in the room. So, during a meeting in September 2015 with Chief McInerny, Vice President Chris Clissold, Secretary Mike Moore and myself were having a meeting with the Chief. I could probably – VLS: If you’ve got a date that’s – LT. NADELMAN: Get to a really close to a calendar on that because we met with him on something else and I want to say it was September, maybe somewhere between the 10th and the 14th. You know, I think I actually have – VLS: While you’re looking, what was the purpose of the meeting? stated purpose? LT. NADELMAN: What was the Okay, it was September 11th. VLS: Okay, that’s a date we can remember. LT. NADELMAN: There we go. And so, Councilman Sam Saad had a commentary on Fox News and some sort where he did a report about the Chief says we had 95 fires but we really only had 5 and he went into that. I don’t know that – let me see if the date’s on there. And, I can give you that. At least it will be a reference that you can listen to the report, it wasn’t very long. No, I don’t have it but I could probably, I could send you actually the link to the radio show that he gave. - 55 - VLS: Okay, I would appreciate that. So, it was after that radio show? LT. NADELMAN: It was after the radio show. He had sent me a text message. VLS: Who had? Saad? LT. NADELMAN: The Chief. Chief McInerny sent me a text message with – on September 10. It says Councilman Sam Saad comments this morning on the Drew Steele Show, Fox 92.5 with a link to it. VLS: You’ve got that e-mail here? LT. NADELMAN: furnishing you. I do. It’s in the middle of a group of e-mails which I’m going to be VLS: So I will see that? LT. NADELMAN: So you’ll see that. So, then you can actually pull the link from there. And, we had actually met with the Chief. We were meeting with him about promotions to the Training Chief’s position. That was the purpose that we met with him. And, there’s another reference about this meeting that talks about this meeting as well, so you might want to note this meeting on Friday, September 11. So, we were meeting about the Training Chief’s position and promoting in-house and during the conversation, the Chief referenced the radio show that Councilman Saad gave about how many fires. And so I was trying to say the Chief won’t, you know, he’s – we have 95 fires report and he’s saying we only have 5. Why don’t you explain to him that, you know, the reason only 5 of them were big was because, you know, we’ve had small little things that were embers and small fires that we could – we’ve gone in and knocked out and the reason there are not more larger fires is because of that. And his exact words to me were, “Maybe we shouldn’t put those fires out anymore.” And in the room was Chris Clissold and Mike Moore. VLS: Did you take it as a sarcastic comment or, I mean have – LT. NADELMAN: Well, you know, he’s made so many comments like that to me in the past. I blow them off because the fact of the matter is, no matter how many times he wants us to do that, he’s not going to – first of all, who would put something like that in writing or a text? But, you know, I just - I’m not going to allow it to happen and I know our Battalion Chiefs are never going to take his agenda that far. VLS: Is there ever any justification not to, I mean to let a property go down? Safety reasons, or anything else? LT. NADELMAN: Sure, there could be. There could be, but, yeah, absolutely. If you went up to – and this house was blowing through the roof and it was just, you know, everywhere and there was no one in it and it was a vacant house and it’s been burning for 20 minutes, we’re not going to send anybody in that house. We’re not going to do that. - 56 - VLS: But that’s not the context within which – in your – LT. NADELMAN: No. No. And, it only takes, you know, 15 minutes to get to that level sometimes. Depending on the incident. But if I know if I can, and as well as everybody here, we became firemen for a reason. Again, I would like to have more people but not at the cost of, you know, causing damage. So, yeah, and he’s made comments to this, I know to all of the Battalion Chiefs. Every time I’m Acting Battalion Chief, and again, it’s almost like a joke at this point to me. You know, he’s constantly, “hey burn one to the ground for me.” And, I always tell him the same thing, “You know I can’t do that.” And he always replies, “It won’t be your fault.” VLS: The Chief says burn one to the ground for me? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. Oh yes. Every – almost every single night I’m Battalion Chief. Because before, when I’m BC, the BCs normally, the afternoon will go [illegible] to the fire stations, so, but because I’m beside the fire station, I will just stay at the fire station and have dinner, so, and I’ll [illegible] say Chief, “Going to run the [illegible], do you need me to anything for you?” And he’ll throw comments like that out there, but he’s made comments like – just numerous times. VLS: To your knowledge, the Battalion Chiefs or the Acting Battalion Chiefs have never acted on such an order an allowed something? LT. NADELMAN: No. And to the fact where I’ve had meetings with my Battalion Chief, you know, when they come in and you know if – gives an example of the Chief, you know, thinks we need to be a little less aggressive on these calls and I look at him with just, with this awe. And he’s like now we continue to do things the way we do them. And that’s the thing is the Battalion Chiefs currently – they’ve been with the City for numerous years. Two of them live in the City and they are just not going to allow something like that to happen. VLS: On the one sub bullet you have a remark, it’s not in quotes, but that comments made by the Chief indicating that we should have a lackluster performance. Were those words that were actually used? LT. NADELMAN: Those words were, and again, I can’t – I wouldn’t want to quote that because these are things – that’s something that specifically Battalion Chief DiMaria told me that the Chief – and lackluster, not aggressive. I can’t speak for the other Battalion Chiefs that talk to their lieutenants and what they’ve told them. VLS: So the individuals that I should speak to with regard to this bullet point would be Battalion Chiefs, Acting Battalion Chiefs, and as to the September 11 meeting, it would be, also be Clissold and Moore. LT. NADELMAN: Correct. VLS: Who are the other, just again, so I have a list of the Acting Battalion Chiefs besides yourself? - 57 - LT. NADELMAN: Lt. Pecar, that’s Gerry Pecar, and Dean Homan, Lt. Homan. VLS: Pecar is on? LT. NADELMAN: A shift and Homan is B shift. VLS: And you also I think mentioned that he said this specifically and mentioned City Council in the same comment or not? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. Basically, when he’s told me, you know, you can burn something – it’s usually burn something to the ground for me or, you know – and I’ve told him, you know, “Well Chief, you know I’m not going to do that.” “It won’t be your fault. It’s Council’s fault. They didn’t give us enough people. If we don’t have enough people to fight the fire, then you know.” VLS: I see. Alright. Let’s go onto the final bullet point under point #2 which is: The Chief has told members of the department that we should have let peoples boats sink and not assisted in saving vessels. LT. NADELMAN: to me. This is specific to probably one or two specific incidents that relate VLS: So you don’t have direct knowledge? LT. NADELMAN: He’s never – VLS: Said that to you? LT. NADELMAN: Said that to me. And again, this was Gerry Pecar was the Battalion Chief on a shift and he told me they had, and again, I don’t know the specific details, but it was either a boat sinking or a boat taking on water and the Chief told him he should have just let it sink. VLS: And when did Gerry Pecar tell you that? I will ask him directly, but when were you informed of that? LT. NADELMAN: He recently told me about it, but I do remember having a conversation with him about it in the past and I don’t know, I can’t give you an exact date. VLS: Are you aware of any other members of the department who you have been told the Chief has made such a comment to? LT. NADELMAN: I don’t know exactly the reference on the comment but I know that Chief Nichols, I believe was responding to either a boat sinking or a boat fire call, I’m not 100% positive, and as he was leaving for the call the Chief had yelled out to him either let it burn or let it sink. - 58 - VLS: Was that different? LT. NADELMAN: Different call. VLS: Different call. And that’s something that Nichols would have told you? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: We have from your document, we have gone over all of the bullet points under point #2 that the department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity. Is there anything else that you believe support that allegation? LT. NADELMAN: That’s all I have right now. VLS: I know that we talked fire calls. With that you’re talking about coding issues primarily. Correct? LT. NADELMAN: I’m sorry. VLS: I’m just going back to the sentence that you – LT. NADELMAN: Oh, okay. VLS: So with respect to fire calls, we’re talking about the coding issue? LT. NADELMAN: The coding, correct. VLS: And damage, we’re talking about the values on the fire reports as discussed? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: And intensity. Just so I understand. LT. NADELMAN: Would fall into the value and as far as the fire out. It would seem that it’s a – and really that’s under the other sub bullet that we just went over, really belongs in the section probably below it. It’s really more, and you could just put a number 3 next to that. I think that’s probably where it needs to go because that’s what it’s really VLS: Well that would be a good segue into point #3 when we return. It’s about 12:35, how long do you want to take for a break? LT. NADELMAN: It’s up to you. VLS: You want to go back and bring me the list of the coding that you mentioned from the station? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. - 59 - VLS: I guess 1:30? If that works. LT. NADELMAN: That’s fine. Whatever works for you. VLS: Okay, I’m going to turn this off. BREAK VLS: Okay, we are going back on the record with the interview of Lt. Adam Nadelman. It’s about 1:45 p.m. And, I believe you brought some records with you that we discussed earlier and maybe you can describe those for me. LT. NADELMAN: Yes. Basically, what I have here is I printed up, just so you could be familiar with the reporting process, this is basically just a report I ran last shift. So, this is, and I just clipped and pasted it real quick, but, so basically this a basic report, the cover page. So you have the address and so forth and so on. But, right up in the – right here you’ll see incident type. VLS: Yes. LT. NADELMAN: And so it has the number of 735 which is alarm system. What does that say? Sounds due to malfunction. VLS: That’s a dropdown menu you choose from? LT. NADELMAN: Yeah, and I that here as well. VLS: Oh, wonderful. LT. NADELMAN: So when you click on this right here for this dropdown menu, these are all the choices you have. And they’re all closed, I have them all open for you. So the 10, which is the one hundreds, and then it goes through all the different fire calls that you possible could have. Then you have your two hundreds and so forth and so on. Three hundreds and then four hundreds [illegible] the hazardous condition is the four’s where the one is the one hundreds is the fires. VLS: So something is either a hazardous condition – it can’t be both a hazardous condition and a fire? LT. NADELMAN: Well, you can have fire that was created from a hazardous condition, but you can have also have a hazardous condition that was not a fire. So, for example, here in 440, is electrical wiring or equipment problem, other. So, say we had that call that we talked about earlier with the odor of electrical and I came in and we found it to be a bad ballast that was causing that odor. There was no fire. There was shorted wire in there, it was nothing, there was no flames, there was no fire, just it overheated, so you would code that as 440. If it was an overheated motor, you know, you would check 442. If it was a motor, like for an a/c motor. Now, if that a/c motor overheated and caused a fire, I would not use 442 because there was fire, so I would go - 60 - right to fire. Now in the fire, there’s another fire page of the report that will open up if I give it a code of 111. And then in that, it will ask – it will break down in there, what do you think caused the fire, where did the heat source come from and then there, you would be putting in whatever codes that affect that in [illegible] from electrical. VLS: Very helpful. LT. NADELMAN: So, these are all the possible codes and so something like I talked about before, something prior to the Chief comment that was, that overheated motor or the electrical wire equipment, but there was no fire. There was no flames, there was no – it was just that [illegible] electrical that was caused from something getting hot because it was either short circuited or bad or whatever, was, then again, why would you pick overheated motor? Well, if we found it to be an overheated motor, we would pick that section. And so here, light ballast. So, breakdown a light ballast. We run a lot of those and it’s – I mean, you come into a room, you have the smell, we have a thermal imaging camera, you know, you say, oh look at how hot that is. Pull the cover off of it and go, oh wow, this thing is – you know, let’s throw the breaker in the room. You know, talk to manager or maintenance of the building. Hey, you guys to need either an electrician to come and put a new ballast in or maintenance to take care of that. There was no fire. So, we would come back and it was obvious. We found what the source of the odor was. So, it’s light ballast. So, we would check that. Well now, the Chief says, well, no, that’s [illegible] fire. You had a light haze of smoke in there, you had a fire. Well no Chief. There was not fire, it was just overheat – No, you have a fire. That’s a building fire. So this may be easier – I wish I had this before when I was trying to explain it. VLS: No, that’s very helpful. LT. NADELMAN: So these are all the codes for the NFIRS and this is just a cover page of the report. VLS: That’s a sample. LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: So, I’m just going to mark this for purposes of the record as I think we’re up to #4, just so I know what I am looking at. LT. NADELMAN: Okay. VLS: One more question before we move on. LT. NADELMAN: Sure. VLS: On the issue of fire coding. Is there – are there training modules or training materials within the Naples Fire Department about the coding process? You said you learned on the job training. - 61 - LT. NADELMAN: Yeah, basically. There’s not really – I mean, there’s kind of a quick reference, cheat sheet that we use, like when you’re learning how to do reports, but as far as choosing the code itself, there’s no guideline on how you choose the code. Which is why when you having something like an actual fire, most of the time you have the officers do it so they can choose the right one because there’s so many different fire codes there in itself. But no, there’s no – basically when you hire someone, like if I got a new firefighter starting tomorrow, we would go over with him, you know, all he is responsible for, he would be on with one of the other – you know, okay, you guys, you just ran your first rescue report. I want you to sit with Ross and as he goes through the report, I want you to watch everything he does. And then so maybe the next shift he runs a call and I’ll say, hey Ross, I want him to do this report, but sit with him and make sure he goes through it all. So that’s really how you learn to do it. VLS: And the coding – LT. NADELMAN: The coding choice. VLS: Again is – the coding is an issue as to the fire end of things. It’s different as we talked about because of the HIPAA considerations, it’s different if it’s a medical call. LT. NADELMAN: Well there’s just an additional section so the narrative, whereas in this narrative I gave you, I think it’s – let’s see – so the narrative’s fairly short because again, we went there several times. So this alarm was secondary to a system malfunction. No hazards were encountered. The alarm system was reset. It’s a simple one. So, if this was a medical call, it would say dispatched to, whatever the reference was, and then CPCR. VLS: And CPCR stands for? LT. NADELMAN: With “C” being “see.” See in as visually see the PCR, which is patient care report. And only a few people can – only if you ran the call, you can look at it. If you’re actually one of the members on the unit or the few people that are allowed to. VLS: I would like to go back to the document that you gave me which you said you had authored and is further detail on the allegations that are raised in the October 21, 2015 letter. And, I think we’re moving on to point #3 which was that: “The Chief’s misrepresentations, exaggerations and outright mendacity have created a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire-rescue personnel. As a result, the Chief has lost the ability to effectively lead the City’s firefighters.” And beneath that, you a number of bullets that we’ll go over each one. Just a question about the sentence itself. When you talk about a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire-rescue personnel, when you talk about City’s fire-rescue personnel, are you talking about strictly Union members or all of the fire-rescue department? LT. NADELMAN: I can only speak for the Union members. - 62 - VLS: Alright. And you’ve used three different phrases – misrepresentations, exaggerations and outright mendacity. I actually had to look that up to see what the dictionary definition was, but what do – LT. NADELMAN: Liar, liar, liar. Yes. VLS: Alright. So that’s what you mean by it and so being I guess intentional, like intentionally lying? LT. NADELMAN: Correct. VLS: Is that what you mean? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: So it’s one thing to exaggerate; it’s another thing to misrepresent and then it’s another thing to lie, which I guess is a knowing. LT. NADELMAN: Correct. VLS: And you’re saying all those occurred? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: This allegation is dating back to when? Is this something recent or is this something that – I guess it may be different for each of the categories? LT. NADELMAN: Again, it goes right back to it’s a gradual thing. And so I will say in the beginning, I guess I didn’t know as much about some of the things that he was saying were not truthful or, you know, he’s always exaggerated a little bit. If he just exaggerated, I guess, you know, there’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s to the extent of the exaggerations and what the – it really all comes down to the lack of integrity. If I say something that’s an exaggeration, but I’m really doing it just purposefully to lead you to something else, and that’s – so really, and again, I would say it probably was longer, but to the best of my knowledge and so that as this has drawn out to a point where I personally and several other members of the Union, I can’t even – anything he says, even if it makes sense, I don’t know if he’s telling the truth or not. VLS: And when did you, again, there’s no, going to be no bright line date, but when did you come to that conclusion? It wasn’t immediately upon his starting? LT. NADELMAN: No, no, no. Without a doubt. Like I said, it was gradually and I would say as of probably – I didn’t realize how much he was lying about stuff. I would say by September of this year, it was like, I really can’t – I’ve always known him to exaggerate and to say things that I know are not true and just kind of brush it off. But, really, by this time now, I mean, and it comes into, in one of these sub points. It got to the point where I can’t believe anything he says at all. - 63 - VLS: Alright. Let’s go to the first sub bullet point which relates to the ISO evaluation process. Tell me what the ISO evaluation process is? LT. NADELMAN: ISO is insurance services. They give a rating for each department. And, I think the ratings go from 1 to 10 being the worst. And so, the insurance office company, and I believe it’s national, not just Florida, the lower the number, the better your department is supposed to be and as well then your insurance rates I guess somehow are adjusted to that. VLS: The individual property owners’ rates? LT. NADELMAN: The individual property insurance. So, if you live in – if you have two houses that are of equal value and you live somewhere where your ISO rating is a 2 and the house that’s of equal value is an ISO rating of 10, you know, so I guess the insurance is reflected of that. Based on many different factors, water supply, department, manning, everything. VLS: Does the ISO have a regular cycle by which they evaluate fire departments? LT. NADELMAN: I really have no idea as the particulars to how often it’s done. I know prior to them coming a few years back, maybe 2010 or 11, there was never one evaluation done here prior to me getting hired. I got hired in 1995. VLS: So you’re only aware of the one? LT. NADELMAN: Of the one that was done since my appointment here. whether they’re supposed to be done or I don’t know how that works. Now VLS: Do you if it’s something that the fire department has any control over? In other words, do you know if the fire department can contact ISO and say, hey, would you review our rating or whether it’s something that they control themselves? LT. NADELMAN: I don’t know any – whatever – what kind of controls there are. I imagine if you called and said, hey, we feel that we could do better or we just – whatever. I’m sure you can get one if you requested it, but I don’t know the process of that. VLS: Was there someone within the fire department that was responsible for the ISO evaluation process when it occurred other than the Chief being involved? LT. NADELMAN: The Chief was, to the best of my knowledge, was led that up. That was his – I don’t know if he called and asked for it to be done or not. And, so when I got hired, we were an ISO 2 which is the second best, 1 being the best. We’re the only two in this county and there’s not a lot of 2s in the state, so it’s a very good – use to be on our – when I was hired, it was on our trucks, ISO 2. It was something that they were very proud of and I don’t know, again, who evaluated it or when it got done, but that was what it was when I came in. So, and specifically about the ISO here, and I’ll get into - 64 - this, I really didn’t have a lot of dealings with the ISO. Everything I know about the ISO is from, honestly, from hearing the Battalion Chiefs complain about it to me directly. VLS: And you, again, use Battalion Chiefs? LT. NADELMAN: All three. VLS: All three. LT. NADELMAN: And at that time it was Chief Vogel, Chief Nichols and Chief DiMaria. But, and again, I – really, from my Battalion Chief, Chief Nichols, I didn’t deal a lot with Chief Vogel because I didn’t work for him very often, but I read in his letter because he put something in the letter he sent to the City about that. But really, basically the Battalion Chiefs really handled that first hand and I know that they were disappointed. The Chief was actually trying to get a worse rating. VLS: And, again, that’s something you surmised from your conversations with the Battalion Chiefs? LT. NADELMAN: I’ve actually, I mean, I did have some conversations with the Chief about it. They were limited, but he always made the comment, you know, if we can get a 5 or worse – that was always his big number – the City’s going to have hire more people so we can, you know, otherwise insurance rates are going to go through the roof. VLS: And, in what context would he have made those remarks? Just while you were Acting Battalion Chief? LT. NADELMAN: Acting Battalion Chief, general conversation. But again, I didn’t have a lot of that with, you know, he really dealt a lot with the Battalion Chiefs. So, but, I know they were, they were very disappointed because a lot of us were proud of having that 2. And again, we all agree with the Chief’s wanting more personnel, but to try and sabotage your department’s rating just to try and do that, which winded up not working anyway ultimately. But, I really don’t know a lot about the details of this one. VLS: Do you know, did you deal – did you communicate directly with the ISO evaluator? LT. NADELMAN: I don’t recall ever meeting him. VLS: And do you know what the evaluation process consisted of when it occurred? LT. NADELMAN: I know there’s – water supply is a big thing, training records and then the rest I’m really not sure of. As far as apparatus, how many people you can get to a call in a certain amount of time, but I would not be able to speak directly on that. VLS: When did you – when and how did you learn that ISO was going to be doing an evaluation in 2010 or 2011? - 65 - LT. NADELMAN: Again, I’m not positive on that. Let me see if – I’m looking for – for some reason if – no, I don’t have – yeah, I would say around 2010. Then again, I could be off. VLS: Did you ever see – is there an actual ISO report beyond the rating that discusses how the evaluator came to the rating number? LT. NADELMAN: I would imagine there was. I do recall a few things toward the end. And again, these were things again relayed to me by the Battalion Chief, the Battalion Chiefs, just in discussion. Toward the end, there was a lot of things that were getting marked off for that were department issues, not as much as staffing issues. So, I know the Chief was running around to get those fixed because he didn’t want to look bad in the whole thing. But, ultimately, I don’t – I’m not sure as far as – I know we kept our 2 at the end of it, the whole thing. VLS: So you consistently, the Naples Fire Department during the timeframe that you’ve been employed here, has always been an ISO rated 2? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: But, you never saw the actual ISO report itself? LT. NADELMAN: No. VLS: When – LT. NADELMAN: That’s not to say it was never e-mailed to me or something. I just probably never wasted much time looking at it. That’s definitely something that the Battalion Chiefs – and again, everything – I know it’s hearsay, so, and I don’t remember specifics of what was said. It was just a general feeling of – VLS: Okay, well I will certainly follow up and interview those witnesses. Are you aware of anything in writing, and again, by writing, I mean e-mails, texts, any documents that would support the allegation that you’re aware of that the Chief tried to sabotage the evaluation process and told fire department personnel to highlight the worst areas? LT. NADELMAN: Vogel’s letter. The only time I ever actually saw it written down was when I read VLS: So, actually this was something that you saw written down after the October 21, 2015 letter went out? LT. NADELMAN: Correct, correct. VLS: Was this an issue that you were aware of before you read Vogel’s letter? - 66 - LT. NADELMAN: I was aware of it. I knew it happened. But, again, it was just – it was really just word of mouth. It was one of those things that there – it’s always been out there. VLS: I mean was this – LT. NADELMAN: Other than the Chief actually telling me, you know, in passing, like if we can get a 5 or worse, we would be able to get people, more people. VLS: I mean was this bullet point about the ISO evaluation process one of the items that was considered as a part of the October 21, 2015 letter? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: Do you know whether the PSSi team looked, did any investigation or made any inquiry about the ISO rating process? LT. NADELMAN: I do not know. VLS: Are you aware of any member of the firefighters that may have advised PSSi about the issue of how the ISO rating was obtained? LT. NADELMAN: No, I don’t know. VLS: Alright. Anything else on that bullet point? LT. NADELMAN: No. VLS: Let’s move on to the next one. You state that: The Chief started an ALS program with the EMS for the sole purpose to spread our unit so thin that we would have no trucks available for emergency calls causing it to fail. And you told me that the ALS system is Advanced Life Support. LT. NADELMAN: Correct. VLS: And is that a – was that a new program? LT. NADELMAN: grievance. Okay, so, this is also – I mentioned a grievance, the class action VLS: Yes. LT. NADELMAN: And, I would say we’ve been in some, some form of a partnership program with EMS since about 98 and its changed several different times, how it’s run, how it’s operated. When this last program – let’s see this was January 14 – so, it would be October of 12. I want to say October 2, 2012 the – everybody that was involved in the prior program had withdrawn from participating in the program which caused the program to end. - 67 - VLS: So, it is no longer a program? LT. NADELMAN: That was then. That was 2012. VLS: Alright. LT. NADELMAN: So we went about a little over a year without a partnership program with EMS. And, the Chief wanted to start up a new program. So this was, this would be now late 2013. And there was some meetings between the Chief and EMS. I’m not sure specifically on the dates and times of those, but they put together what they felt would be a new program that we can work with. And, I had an opportunity to look at a draft of that program. One day I was Action Battalion Chief and the Chief e-mailed it to me. And I looked at it and went through and I highlighted a bunch of sections in it that I, you know, thought were problems that would not make it work, and went over them with the Chief. So we had a – the Chief held a department meeting discussing the program and how it would operate and the operations of it and a lot of people – when I say a lot of people I mean the bargaining unit members that would be involved in this program – you know, all we all discussed out it. It was discussed at Union meetings, it was discussed around the stations. Just in general that this is never going to work. If we run this the way the Chief wants this run, we’re going to have all our units on these ambulances running these calls and no one available to run. Currently, if someone calls 911 for a rescue call and so, an ambulance goes and a fire unit goes. The ambulances are our Collier County units. They were from County. And, the ambulance would transport the patient and we would go available. And, a lot of time we would go available and go run another call before they even bring their patient back and forth. So, with that, this program had us riding in with them on every single ALS call. So any advanced call, and to that grievance, there’s a one-hour recording that goes over that whole program that the City recorded the Step 3 grievance. But, so in – the Chief wanted to forward with this and he stated it in several – we even had some labor management meetings with him and of myself and Chris Clissold were there with the Chief. Don’t remember specific days. We have a few meetings with him regarding the program. And, he kept on saying, well, if we have no units available and something bad happens, it’s not our fault. Council will have to – you know, I brought to Council we need more people. If they don’t want to get us more people, then – And again, this goes right back to the, you know, okay, we need more people, yes, but, you know, we’re not going to – I don’t want – so currently if we’re on a call and say another call comes down, that sounds more serious [illegible], we’ll just go. Hey, listen, we’ll tell the ambulance, you guys don’t need us for this, it’s not that big. We’re going to go pick up that other call. No problem. We would leave. It’s happened like this for years. So if we followed the program the way the Chief had it set up to the letter of the law, we ride in all the time, every time, which means that so now all it takes is a couple of rescue calls and you have no trucks available on the south end of town to rescue calls. And we were trying to build into the system some – alright, why do really have to go in on every call. We’re willing to participate in the program, but listen Chief, to call in on every single ALS call. There are ALS calls that are – this could probably take two hours if we went over this. I’m trying to try and sum it up as – to as best I can. So, an ALS call could be ALS just by the reference of the call. So if someone is having stomach pain, - 68 - abdominal pain is an ALS call. Now it could be bleeding. You don’t know what it is. It could a call that requires a lot of treatment or no treatment, just a transport to the hospital. And, even prior to this program, if we had a call that they needed our help with, we went in with them anyway. We were doing that since I started. So, if the medics had a call where they really need help, we would go, we would always ride in. We have forever. So, we try to – Chief, why don’t we just do like certain calls or calls that require to start skills or, and it was – no, you’re going to go on every single call, all the time. He made a few exceptions for the airport because the airport couldn’t really ride in and for our special event bikes and serve carts, our little golf cart we have for special events. He made some exceptions to those, but pretty much everything else, if it’s an ALS call, you’re going in. So bargaining unit members so that as not only a waste of time, but it definitely would have been in season, when we’re busy, we would not have units available to run calls. And if the purpose of the program was for training, we weren’t getting any training out of this. Because most of the time, most of the skills we do, because we’re so close to the hospital here in the city, the hospital is right in the middle of the City of Naples. So, most of the time, we’re doing all the skills on scene anyway. So, there’s really no benefit to the program, but only a downside. And it had nothing to do with, with running the calls because we’re running the calls anyway. You [illegible] say with whatever your medical problems is, we’re sending a unit no matter what. So, it’s not like we would run less calls if we had the [illegible], we would run the same amount of calls. We would just be unavailable a lot longer timeframe. And I know the Chief’s hands are tied in what he can do with, because the County runs the EMS and allows us to have ALS units or not. But the purpose of the call, or the purpose of the program for him, and he’s flat out said it, it’s not like this was an assumption, he flat out told us that, you know, when I brought to him at labor management and it was brought to his attention, listen Chief, this is going to cause us to have no units available. This is going to cause – well if someone calls 911 and is having a heart attack in the City, and again, I’m using heart attack, but not verbatim, and there’s no one there then it’s not our problem, is it? VLS: Those statements were made in a labor management meeting sometime in 20 ? LT. NADELMAN: Well, here. And I put in here, to the best of my knowledge, here is a – the second sub bullet. Vice President Clissold and myself met with the Chief in late 2013 (Nov/Dec) where he told us that it would not be our fault if someone died because we had no units available, stating that he told City Council we need more people and it would be their fault. VLS: Was the – LT. NADELMAN: And I’m paraphrasing. So, but – VLS: I appreciate that, if you indicate, you know, what’s a direct quote and what is paraphrased. - 69 - LT. NADELMAN: I would definitely put it in quotes if I, I mean, again, I didn’t write – I didn’t think I’d be having to pull a lot of this stuff back up. And so prior – as soon as he started the program in January, it goes to sub bullet 1. In January 2014 when he started the program, all the paramedics, because it was for paramedics only, all sent letters through the chain of command dropping out of the program because they knew it was not in the best interest of the community. Now the reason we sent it to the Battalion Chiefs is in the contract, is says if you wish to not participate in the program you send a letter through the chain of command. So it went to the – everybody wrote letters and put them to the Battalion Chief. I think 33 of 34 paramedics wrote letters. VLS: And the program it did not take effect? LT. NADELMAN: It did. No, no. We – listen – we were very clear to the Chief. You know, listen, we’re going to – and we did, we filed a grievance and it went all the way through. And I brought these concerns to – I told Roger about – this is why the Chief wants to do this. Now, it’s my word against the Chief’s word. He’s the Assistant City Manager. He’s having his Department Director tell them that he never, you know, that wasn’t the intentions of it. So, it’s really our word against his. So if the City Manager or Assistant City Manager chose to believe his Department Director, which I don’t blame him for, I guess. But, and this was one of those grievances that got swept under the table at the end of the – VLS: Contract period? LT. NADELMAN: Doing the new contract. Yes. Because we were going to take this all the way to arbitration for sure. VLS: So the ALS program currently exists? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: And under the current configuration of the ALS program, are the paramedics riding with EMS? LT. NADELMAN: Well, here’s one of things that I didn’t know was going to probably cause a problem here, but we do ride in, but through this process and through the grievance process of this call the Chief had made a statement, which wasn’t there prior to the same, that the Battalion Chiefs have the authority to, you know, depending on availability, not have someone ride in. VLS: So, there’s a means of accepting out? LT. NADELMAN: So, now there’s a means of accepting out. But he – and so, back to the Battalion Chiefs would never want us to do something that was going to cause harm to someone in the community, and so right now, yeah, if we’re busy, my unit doesn’t ride in. I have 3 paramedics on my truck. If we’re real busy, we’re not. Now, if there was, well in this, we’ll get back down to about 3 points from here. So yeah, the Battalion Chiefs that are on duty, the Chief now gives the latitude. And that was never - 70 - something that was – there was really no latitude until we started pushing the issue with this. Now, I can’t tell you, I’m sure, and it’s my own assumption, and so, I probably won’t say it. Never mind. VLS: I won’t ask. You know, that’s fine. Did the Chief in connection with the ALS program make any misrepresentations, exaggerations or lies? LT. NADELMAN: Oh, absolutely. He lied. First of all, he, and let’s see the words right and I’ll get them proper. I mean the misrepresentation and the lie about both is both misrepresented and then lied about it because when he was called on this to – we brought this to the City Manager, or Assistant City Manager. You know, he said that, no, that’s not what it’s for. It’s for all these other positive things when that’s not what it was for. VLS: So the misrepresentation and lie was what he had previously expressed was his purpose? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: And then later denying that that was his purpose? LT. NADELMAN: Correct. VLS: Any other – LT. NADELMAN: And, just so you know, when I spoke with Roger about this, I did it right in front of the Chief. I didn’t go behind the Chief’s back. I sat there, myself, Chris Clissold, and Gerry Pecar, at the time was the Union Treasurer. We sat there with Denise and Roger and Chief McInerny. And, finally I told them, finally I told them that’s why the Chief wanted to do this. And he denied it. But – VLS: Alright. Any records, I know you’ve given me some things on the actual grievance, but are there any documents that show – LT. NADELMAN: word against his. Nothings that would support – it’s our word against his. It’s our VLS: Alright. Let’s go to the next bullet point: The Chief has inflated work time on public records request for Councilmember’s. Is that intended to be – is that plural? I mean, is there a word missing? Or you’re just saying that Councilmembers made public records requests and he inflated the work time? LT. NADELMAN: That is what I am saying. Did I write that incorrectly? VLS: Well, no. I didn’t know if there was a word missing like – LT. NADELMAN: Oh, okay. Councilmember’s - 71 - VLS: For Councilmember’s something. LT. NADELMAN: Okay. I gotcha. VLS: So, when were there public records requests by Council members? Is this an ongoing – LT. NADELMAN: It’s happened a few times. I know that one of the big things because it was at a Council meeting where I think it was Councilman Finlay had commented about how much he got this huge bill from the City and you know, it was, again – we all laughed about it, because – I don’t remember the amount. He had said it was TV but it was hundreds of dollars. VLS: Can you give a timeframe, like what year this came up? LT. NADELMAN: It was in the last couple of years I would say. Probably not this calendar year, but it’s possible. I could tell you I know specifically this calendar year, I was Battalion Chief within the last six months and an issue came up where Kathy Carrington, the Chief’s secretary, she’s an administrative assistant for really everybody, for the Battalion Chiefs, the Chief, the prevention, she had asked me – I was Acting Battalion Chief and no one was in the office and I don’t know who she was pulling the public record for. She said that the Chief was – someone was looking for public records requests on building inspections or something, I’m not sure. And she – the Chief told her to charge his rate, his hourly employee rate. I said okay. She said well, the clerk told me I was supposed to charge the lowest person that’s able to get the information. I said okay. She goes – I said well, did you get it? She goes, well no, he gave it to me, but she said I could have done it in 15 minutes. I go, well then charge your rate. She’s like, okay. That was the end of the conversation really. But, I had overheard Chief Nichols telling Chief DiMaria because I was in the office. Sometimes when I’m Acting Battalion Chief, Chief DiMaria is my Battalion Chief, he’s off, but he comes in to do stuff because he does a lot of work on the budget. And, it might have been one of those mornings that I was there because I would relieve Mike Nichols if I was BC. And, he was telling Chief DiMaria, and I was sitting right there, that the Chief asked him, you know, how much time did you work on Finlay’s documents and, I don’t remember the exact time he said, but he had given one time and the Chief said, well triple that or double that or whatever it was, he had made the comment that the Chief wanted more time than that. VLS: Have you seen any of the bills that have gone out for the public records request? LT. NADELMAN: I have not. VLS: Is there any documentation that you’re aware of in writing that relate to this allegation? LT. NADELMAN: If anyone has, it would be Chief Nichols because I overheard him telling Chief DiMaria. - 72 - VLS: Do you remember what – you mentioned Finlay’s request for public records, do you remember what it was that Finlay was doing a public records request for? LT. NADELMAN: I think it was for reports, but I’m not a 100% positive. I think he was looking into some of the stuff that I listed in here and that I’m telling you because it was blatantly obvious to him something wasn’t right. VLS: When you say inflated work time, you’re talking about the amount of time spent by members of the department responding to the records request? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. And so the way the City’s policy, and I can’t be 100% sure, but basically you’re charged an hourly rate for whatever hours that employee worked, and then it might be, I think, plus 25% from benefits or something like that. But, I am not sure. VLS: So it goes to the amount of time as opposed to the rate itself? What you think has been inflated? LT. NADELMAN: Correct. But, I know he tried to inflate his, the rate. Just on the one that Kathy mentioned to me. And I don’t even know what that was regarding. VLS: Anything else on that bullet point? LT. NADELMAN: No. VLS: Okay, let’s go onto the next one: The Chief has lied directly to members of the department about promotional opportunities. So let’s start with that. You’ve got some additional details and sub bullet points under that. Let’s discuss promotional opportunities in general within the Naples Fire Department so I understand. Is there a set procedure on how new positions or vacated positions are to be – what policies [illegible] from your knowledge? LT. NADELMAN: From lieutenant down, all those are covered in the contract. They’re bargaining unit member positions and it’s laid out how he’ll do that through the contract. Those are not issues. VLS: So those aren’t at issue? LT. NADELMAN: Those are not an issue. And, up until just recently, I just found out what the policy is for the non-bargaining positions and that kind of leads to this next bullet point because I had called Denise Perez to ask her about it, what the process was. So, if you – let me see if I have that in here. If not – no, it’s not written in here. So, that meeting September 11 that we referenced the comment that the Chief made, the purpose of that meeting was to discuss the recent promotion up for training. We had a Training Chief retire or resign. VLS: That was Bob Rogers? - 73 - LT. NADELMAN: No, that was Bill Moyer. So he was gone in June. Moyer left in approximately June. VLS: Of 2015? LT. NADELMAN: Yes, of this year. When he left, I know I had some conversations with the Chief, and as well I asked the Battalion Chiefs who have had conversations with him. What’s the Chief going to do? Is he going to post this position? And he never posted it, but he did – I would say probably the best word would to be I bothered him quite a bit about it because the prior promotion he didn’t post and didn’t even given anybody an opportunity to look into it. That was the Fire Marshall’s position. So, I kept on asking him, let’s try and get this in-house, let’s, you know, build up some morale. You know, we’re not having any – we’re not getting anybody hired and there’s not a lot of positions available. So, he ultimately put out a, not a posting, but an e-mail asking for letters of interest, for anyone interested in taking the Training Chief’s position. It was in about August. No, July. July and it was due like the first week of August, I want to say. VLS: Do you still have access to that e-mail? LT. NADELMAN: Yeah. Absolutely. I can get that for you. VLS: And that letter went out by the Chief to all members? LT. NADELMAN: All bargaining unit members. VLS: All bargaining unit members. LT. NADELMAN: Now, when I met with the Chief prior to that, he always said, well, let’s wait for the PSSi report before making any decisions on what we’re going to promote because they are going to look for other – they want to give us other positions or recommend other positions. I’m trying to think, maybe it was longer than that when Chief Moyer left. It might have been earlier than June. So, I met with the Chief and he said well we’re going to wait, want to see what we’re going to do. Four people in-house replied to that letter of interest that the Chief requested. VLS: And who were those individuals? LT. NADELMAN: Lt. Pecar, Lt. Adamski, Lt. Zunzunegui and DE Kofsky. VLS: Did you see their reply to – their letters of interest? LT. NADELMAN: No. But the Chief had told me that the four of them had put in for it. That was never disputed. VLS: I just wondered what was in there. If you had ever seen what in particular they submitted. LT. NADELMAN: I did not. No. - 74 - VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: So, I had met with the Chief with Chris Clissold earlier in September, prior to September 11, about, you know, what he was going to do with – we met, I think we met about the PSSi report. And while we were there, we asked him, you know, what his intentions were with the promotional opportunities. VLS: This is before – LT. NADELMAN: The September 11. VLS: And before the letter went out to members of the fire department? LT. NADELMAN: After. VLS: After. Okay. LT. NADELMAN: So he confirmed that he received 4 letters with us, which we knew already. And that really the only one he was considering was Lt. Pecar. Basically, he explained to us that the one problem he had, or that he was having, was that Denise Perez didn’t want to promote Gerry because he didn’t have a degree. VLS: What degree? A bachelors? LT. NADELMAN: He just said a degree. But I don’t think Gerry has either, associates or a bachelors. Which Lt. Adamski and Lt. Zunzunegui both have degrees. But he wasn’t going to consider them. He didn’t say why. He explained that Denise – other department – not directors, but other administration in other departments, this was the Chief telling us that they make less than the Battalion Chiefs and they have to have degrees and she doesn’t think that she is going to be able promote someone to that Battalion Chief level without a degree. Currently, the three Battalion Chiefs don’t have degrees at all. VLS: Is there, if you know, is there a job description? LT. NADELMAN: There –prior to the Chief arriving, there was – which was the last time the Battalion Chiefs, any Battalion Chief position was posted, it – there is a – and the Chief actually added it to the PSSi report saying that’s what he uses. But, he’s never used it. See, that is an actual outright lie that he told PSSi that there’s a procedure for Battalion Chiefs. And I specifically, that’s something I do remember specifically telling Brian Cummings that the Chief lied to him. Because the Chief told him in front of me and I told Brian there is no process. The Chief does not have one. He, basically up to this point, has picked and chosen who he wanted. VLS: So, you’re telling me that the Chief gave to PSSi, in particular, Cummings, a document job description? - 75 - LT. NADELMAN: For Battalion Chief promotional process. And, the one he gave him was the one that Chief Nichols got promoted on which that testing happened prior to Chief coming here. Now, Chief Nichols was on, the number one on the list when the Chief got hired and he did subsequently promote Mike cause he was already on that list, but has never posted again since then. VLS: Okay, did you see the document? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: On the promotional process? LT. NADELMAN: I have, yes. It was in an e-mail that the Chief sent out to PSSi and was at Council meeting as well and I have a copy of it. I know I do. VLS: I would like that. LT. NADELMAN: Let me put it in my notes here. VLS: And did that, and I’ll look at the document itself, but did that process that the, written process that the Chief gave to PSSi require a posting of a Battalion Chief position? LT. NADELMAN: Well, it was an old posting. That’s what it was. So, back to the first meeting that he told us he was going to consider and said it was Denise’s fault. So then September 11, that was the meeting with myself, Clissold and Mike Moore were with the Chief, we asked him. What are you going to do about the promotional process? Have you made any decisions? And, so, this was the first time that Mike Moore was in the room. The first time was just me and Chris. He went on to explain to me how, or all of us, that, again, he brought up that Denise had an issue with promoting Gerry and, you know, he doesn’t have a degree. So I, just sitting there, realized that he – I didn’t believe anything he was saying, honestly. And, I said alright, you know what Chief? I’ll take it. I’ll take the position. I have my bachelor’s degree and then I just, I rattled off everything that I have. And he – I did it on purpose to see what he would say because I knew – I could tell he just had no intentions of doing it. And, if he had said listen, I’m not going to promote in-house, that’s not what I want to do. We would have had to live with that. That’s you know, finding out later that he has that right. But he said, actually when I threw my name in there, he said well, you didn’t put in for it. I said, well you never posted it. I said post it and I’ll put in officially, and I’ve got 10 years left, I’ll be the Training Chief for the next 10 years. It’s not something I want to do, but I will do it for the department to help increase promotions in-house and to keep all this. And, so his exact words were, “well, you know, I will go speak to Denise on Monday and see if I can get her to change her mind. I’ll give it another shot,” is what he said. VLS: And by that you assumed he meant that he would give – LT. NADELMAN: He would try and convince Denise to promote Pecar. - 76 - VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: So, over that weekend, that was a Friday, the 11th, one of our members was, lives on the other coast in Broward County, and was at a children’s party and ran into a friend of his that knows Chief McInerny. Its Mark Hoyt is the firefighter that I’m referring to. He was at the party in Broward County. And, someone that was there at the party that knows him and knows McInerny said, hey, I heard you hired Phil Pennington as your new Training Chief? He said, I don’t know. What are you talking about? He goes, yeah, the Chief hired him. He’s coming to be your new Training Chief. He said, I have no idea what you’re even talking about. So, Mark told me about the conversation. I called the friend of mine over in Ft. Lauderdale, cause Phil Pennington’s from Ft. Lauderdale, and I said, hey, do you know who Phil Pennington is? And he said, you mean your new Training Chief? I said, well I guess, apparently. He said, yeah, he told me about it. He said he put in for – his last day is on – so, this would be the 14th, this would be Monday. He said his last day is the 22nd here in Ft. Lauderdale. I said, alright, thank you. So I called HR and I asked to speak to Denise Perez. And I asked Denise if we hired – if the Chief hired a Training Chief. And she said, I don’t know. I’ve been out on FMLA for whatever it was she was out on and this was her first day back. And I said, well, I heard that the Chief hired someone and actually he told me that you didn’t want to promote Gerry Pecar because he didn’t have a degree. And, Denise – and I have this in here because – Denise said to me, the Chief told you that I said that? And I said yes. She goes, Adam, I didn’t do that. I had nothing to do with this process. I’ve been out on leave. I said, well just so you know, he said he said didn’t – we didn’t promote Gerry Pecar because you told the Chief and I explained what the Chief said. She said well Adam, that is not true at all. I said, okay. That’s fine. I said, what is the process? Is there a process for hiring a non-bargaining unit member in any of the departments? She said the Department Directors can promote or hire anyone they want without any process if it’s a non-bargaining unit administrative staff. They just tell us who they want to hire and we hire them, pending background check and all that. VLS: So she was telling you that HR would not, except for administering the process, they would not be involved? LT. NADELMAN: Correct. She said that the Department Directors have the right. Now they can give it to them to post, but the Department Director can hire whoever they want for an administrative staff. VLS: And did Denise give you any – is there any written policy to your knowledge or was she talking about a customary practice? LT. NADELMAN: Not to my knowledge. I don’t know. I took what she said as being the truth. And I have no reason not to believe Denise. She’s always been forthright. VLS: And what day is this? - 77 - LT. NADELMAN: This is that Monday, so the 14th. So within about 15 minutes, Denise called me back. I was on duty. And she said, you know, she was answering my question and I asked her if we hired someone. She said she – that we did hire someone. That there was a conditional job offer sent to, and she read his name, Phil Pennington, on August – I forget the date she said. It was sent out by Lori Parsons because Denise was out. She’s the Risk Management for the City. It was sent out to him and Phil Pennington signed it, I think she said like September 2nd or something, the conditional job offer, and sent it back in. I said alright, you know. Thank you very much. So, at this point, I realized this was – like literally nothing the Chief can say to me. I can’t believe anything he says anymore, at all. This is – I mean just literally sat and lied to the whole group of us. So, I tried to get a hold of Chief that day. Couldn’t get a hold of him. And, I did, I basically the next day – it was an A shift, myself, Chris and Mike Moore went in to see him. He was in the office and I basically laid it out for him. I told him everything. I knew about the letter to Pennington, I knew he had already put in a two-week notice at Ft. Lauderdale. This whole time the Chief lied right to our face about it. He denied it, sitting right there, even though I knew – so I told him you mean everybody in Ft. Lauderdale is lying. The people that called me are lying, that HR is lying and you’re telling the truth. And he goes – and he just stared at me. And, I told him, I said listen. I talked to Denise. You have the right to hire whoever you want and that – if you had said to us back in August, listen, I’m the Fire Chief, this is who I want, this is why I want them. And, – but instead he just, you know, and not just leading us on because I know he had several conversations with Gerry Pecar in that month of September about, you know, the promotional opportunity. I don’t know if he actually told Gerry that, you know, that he was considering him or any of that, but, yeah, he just outright, intentionally lied to cover – and he didn’t have to. And doesn’t owe me any explanation either. But, you know what? It’s just more of the constant lies. VLS: Was this one of the matters that was considered before the letter was sent out? The issue, the promotional issue? If you can say. LT. NADELMAN: Yes. As far as why? VLS: The no confidence and the lies. LT. NADELMAN: Yes. This is just everything that ties right into that. VLS: Now, I just want to kind of go back over history. The Chief came in 2009? LT. NADELMAN: 2009. VLS: What promotions at the non-bargaining level had occurred prior to this most recent one of Pennington? LT. NADELMAN: It might be easier to go the other way from 2009 forward. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: If that’s okay. - 78 - VLS: Yeah. LT. NADELMAN: So, when the Chief got hired, Mike, Lt. Nichols, was on the – he took the promotional test with, I think with Lt. Massey, Battalion Chief. And Mike was number one on that. VLS: So, he was – LT. NADELMAN: He was on and established. VLS: He was within? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: But he was – LT. NADELMAN: He already took the test so the Chief came in and basically promoted him right away. The next position was the Training Chief position which I’m not 100% sure – who would’ve been the Training Chief before then? Oh, the Training Chief position became vacant and we had Lt. SanAngelo was Interim Training Chief. This was in the same year, 2009 as well. And the Chief gave him the position. There was not posting for it. There was no – anything like that. VLS: But he was internal? He was lieutenant? LT. NADELMAN: Yes, yes. Then I think SanAngelo – yes, Training Chief SanAngelo retired and there was again, no posting or anything. The Chief did do an e-mail of, I think a letter of interest as well, like he did the last one. And then he brought in Bill Moyer as Training Chief. VLS: Alright. And where did Bill Moyer come from? LT. NADELMAN: He was the Training Chief out at Golden Gate. VLS: Do you know whether other members of the department had responded to the letter? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: And do you know who did? LT. NADELMAN: Lt. Zunzunegui and myself. VLS: Did – have you seen Moyer’s qualifications? I mean, do you know what Moyers – LT. NADELMAN: wasn’t. Yes. He was well qualified for the job. I’m not going to say he - 79 - VLS: Alright. And Moyer was the Training Chief from what – so you’re not – you’re not – you understand that he was well qualified for the job and aren’t necessarily disputing the choice LT. NADELMAN: We wish he would have – I’m not disputing it. I wish he would have posted it. Had interviews. Done the, you know, a fair process. But, no. I mean, he was very qualified for the position. He had been a Training Chief his whole career. VLS: And when did you – LT. NADELMAN: I would say he wasn’t the best fit for our department which is probably why he left. But, he was definitely not under qualified. He had pretty much everything I had and anyone else. You know, I don’t know about his formal education. I’m sure he had a degree. But, he was definitely a well-qualified instructor. VLS: And he left as a result of a resignation? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: Thus giving rise to the new – LT. NADELMAN: Well, prior to that you had the Fire Marshall. VLS: And this is Bob – LT. NADELMAN: So Larry [illegible] was the Fire Marshall that resigned, or retired I should say. And so the Chief hired, promoted Bob Rogers from our inspection bureau to Fire Marshall. VLS: And in terms of the organization charge, is the Fire Marshall sort of on the same line as the – LT. NADELMAN: Battalion Chiefs, yes. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: And again, that was not only not posted, there is no letters of interest for it – there was the Battalion Chiefs, nor the Fire Marshall position. There was no – actually he was Fire Marshall for probably about a couple of months, prior to anyone even realizing he was the Fire Marshall to be honest with you. He just made him Fire Marshall. VLS: Did you, do you question Rogers’ qualifications to be promoted from Fire Inspector to Fire Marshall? LT. NADELMAN: Well, if we go to the next point, I talk about that the Chief has hired and promoted personal friends that were unqualified for their perspective positions. VLS: And one of those you believe was Bob Rogers? - 80 - LT. NADELMAN: So, I’ll read what I have in here and then we can elaborate. VLS: Okay, sure. LT. NADELMAN: Bob Rogers – The Chief hired his friend Rogers from the Beach Patrol (he was on the Beach Patrol prior to this, to the position of Fire Inspector). Then he used department training funds sot send Rogers (while be paid, while he was duty) to Ocala to take the necessary classes to become a certified inspector. He wasn’t even an inspector. Then after the Chief promoted Rogers to the position of Fire Marshall, again using department funds and sending him while on duty getting paid to Ocala to become a Fire Investigator. So, he hired his friend who was working at the Beach Patrol. Bob Rogers is his friend from Maine. Or, I don’t know where he knows him from. I shouldn’t say that. But he hires him with nothing out of Beach Patrol to become an Inspector then has to send him to get his Inspector’s license, pay for him to do it, and then did the same thing again for Fire Marshall. VLS: Is there a written job description for the Fire investigator and what the minimum qualifications are for the job? LT. NADELMAN: For the Fire Marshall? VLS: I’m sorry, for the, yes, for the Fire Marshall. LT. NADELMAN: In order to be a Fire Marshall, I mean, you have to be able to investigate fires. That’s their main job description. VLS: No, I just wondered if there was a written – if you know whether the City has a written job description that says – LT. NADELMAN: I would imagine the City has one. I don’t know if they do. I believe – I know at one time they had a job description for every job written. And there were – we had personnel that had their Inspector and had their Investigator and, like I said, it was never even posted. Now it’s – the Chief can do that according to HR. But again, it was never even posted. Never even offered. And then – so you have any other questions about Rogers? VLS: And Rogers is the current Fire Marshall? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: And do you – I know you haven’t seen the job description, but do you believe that he meets, currently meets the requirements? LT. NADELMAN: I would imagine he’s finished his schooling by now. VLS: I don’t know if we finished going through the list promotions, the list of positions that the Chief has filled that are at the non-bargaining level. - 81 - LT. NADELMAN: So, the only other one that we didn’t go over [illegible] would be Tim Bruener, who is the current Battalion Chief when Chief Vogel left. Again, not posted. VLS: Where did Bruener come from? LT. NADELMAN: He was a lieutenant. He was promoted in-house. VLS: Alright. So, let’s talk next – LT. NADELMAN: And I did – when Tim got promoted, he was Interim Battalion Chief when Vogel retired. He was Interim Battalion Chief. And, I even asked the Chief, what are you doing with the Battalion Chief position? And he said to me, well I guess it is obvious. I’m just going to give it to Tim. Which was fine. I had no problem with him giving it to Tim, but, you know, again, there’s no posting, no nothing. And prior to the Chief coming, every single position we ever had was posted. The Fire Chiefs prior to him, they always posted. They always posted in-house only. They had the option, I guess, not to. But, they were always posted and you had an application you were to send with a resume and there was an interview or some sort, something that was done. And with the Battalion Chief, I think it was just an oral interview. There was never anything more than that. VLS: The next – LT. NADELMAN: we didn’t touch. So that’s the only other non-bargaining position he’s promoted that VLS: Now you have stated that Rogers was a personal friend and was unqualified for his position. He was unqualified at least at the time of his hire because he had not – LT. NADELMAN: For both, the Inspector and – VLS: For both? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. He wasn’t in – because after we hired him, we had to use department funds to send him to become an inspector. He wasn’t even an inspector. He was working on a four wheeler on the beach in the Beach Patrol. He was a retired firefighter from up north. VLS: And Phil Pennington, you indicate that he was a personal friend and was not qualified for his position as, or the position he took as Training Chief? LT. NADELMAN: So the Chief hired Phil Pennington from Ft. Lauderdale to take the position of Training Chief. And Pennington, you know, from before he got retired, he was just an officer, a lieutenant on an engine, a ladder company I think over there. And he did have some extensive training experience in the medical side over in Ft. Lauderdale. But, he’s not a state certified Fire Officer 1, which is the minimum qualification to be a lieutenant here. - 82 - VLS: This is all written down on your sheet? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: You say Pennington is not a state certified Fire Officer 1 which is the minimum qualification in our department just to become a lieutenant. So, I assume that’s also a minimum qualification for a Battalion Chief? LT. NADELMAN: Well, generally it’s progressive. VLS: Right. LT. NADELMAN: But you cannot have your Fire Officer 1 and have a degree. But again, anybody that’s in-house pretty much – if you’re a Battalion Chief, you’ve got at least your Fire Officer 1. Because we have Battalion Chiefs that don’t have degrees but have their Fire Officer. VLS: I see. LT. NADELMAN: Because it’s one of those things that it’s strictly fire classes, 7 to 9 fire classes, 40 hour classes that you have to take and then you take a state test to be a Fire Officer. It’s a state certification. VLS: You also state in this document that Pennington is not even a certified Fire Service Instructor which for a Training Chief is also the basics. LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: And Fire Service Inspector – LT. NADELMAN: Instructor. VLS: Instructor. Okay. And have you – how do you know that? Have you seen his or checked on his licensing and qualifications? LT. NADELMAN: I know this for one reason only. Next week we are sending him to Ocala which he will be driving a City vehicle, staying up there on the City dollar, getting paid his $100,000 a year salary to go to class. And he’s going to Fire Service Course Delivery Class which you need to take your Fire Service Instructor. VLS: Now he has been on the job officially employed and working since what date? LT. NADELMAN: September 25, give or take a couple of days. VLS: And is there any – has there been any demonstrated lack in his performance that you want to comment on to the extent it supports any of your allegations? LT. NADELMAN: Well, as far as I really have no allegations against Pennington. - 83 - VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: You know, I’m sure he is a qualified Fire Officer that, you know, he worked in Ft. Lauderdale for years. So, as far as his ability to instruct or anything like that, I’ve really not had much about that. And again, the big thing with – I didn’t even know about the, that he didn’t have some of these qualifications until after I wrote that letter. I had no idea about that. It was actually a shock to me that he didn’t have his qualifications. VLS: But one of the issue of Pennington or the Chief making misrepresentations about Pennington’s hire, that was something that you knew of before October 21? LT. NADELMAN: Oh, absolutely. VLS: And was one of the basis for point #3? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. Yeah, he definitely, again, we’ll go that one where he definitely misrepresented his intentions to us about Pennington and lied outright, and like I said, not only lied to us, but then blamed Denise Perez thinking, I don’t know, thinking I wouldn’t call her. I don’t know. VLS: Are you aware of anyone else besides the three of you where there was a lie or misrepresentation as it relates to Pennington? LT. NADELMAN: I know he lied to Chief DiMaria about his hiring. As far as early as – when I found out about it, him hiring Chief Pennington, I had spoke to Chief DiMaria that day because I knew [illegible] and I said that I heard the Chief hired. He goes, no I don’t know what you’re talking him. And I told him the story about Mark Hoyt. And so, he goes, well I’m going to ask him. So he asked the Chief. He said no. This was Monday. This was – and the Chief told him, no I didn’t hire anybody yet. Which I know for a fact, after talking to Denise, that was a lie. Again, I can’t, I don’t, I can’t, I have no idea why he lied about it other than – not only did he lie about it, but he stuck to the lie even when he was confronted about it. And again, it’s more of that, just it piles on top of. At this point, he could look at me and say anything to me and I don’t know - I wouldn’t know if he was telling the truth or not. VLS: You say under the point about Phil Pennington in this document that he did not compare to any of the internal candidates. Are you referring to the four people who actually responded to the letter of interest? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. And, really that came into after I found out that he had no qualifications other than he had a degree in some kind of secondary field. VLS: That was something that you learned after the letter of October 21? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. - 84 - VLS: And you are familiar with the qualifications of the four candidates that did, or the four individuals that did respond to the letter of interest? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. I know they all have Fire Officer 1. You know, they – two of them teach at the Fire Academy so they have their live fire instructor. You know, Dan Zunzunegui, he’s got his degree, his Fire Officer. He’s got, you know, I think he even has a master’s degree, I don’t know. So, now again, I’ve not, I would never knock someone for doing well for themselves. You know, but if you want just look at well the Chief , the City didn’t promote from within because they were able to save money, the Chief brought Pennington in at the highest maxed out level he could be at. Whereas in both Zunzunegui and Adamski, if one of them were selected, they would have come in making less. And, they wouldn’t have had to send any of them to school. VLS: Who develops the salary levels? Is that something that’s done in HR or to your knowledge that’s something that the Chief within parameters does? LT. NADELMAN: To my knowledge, I don’t know. VLS: Okay. LT. NADELMAN: You know honestly, I know if we’re usually promoted in-house there’s a five to ten percent raise depending on where you are, what you do and positions outside the bargaining unit. But, as far as bringing someone in, I guess they look at their qual – I don’t know. VLS: Alright. And then that, I guess, is part of your final point: Chief waste funds to send them to school the Chief brought his friends in at the highest end of their pay scale. The department would not have had to send our internal candidates to school and the City would have had a lower payroll promoting internally. LT. NADELMAN: Yes. And again, those aren’t necessarily the reasons why they should have promoted within, but they’re definitely opportunities in-house and again, it’s not – if you just took any one of the items, they’re really not, oh my God, look at what he did. It’s everything on top of it that just combines to make it, you know, these guys don’t want to work for him anymore. We will ultimately work for him if we have to because we don’t make that decision. But – VLS: Just to, I know you said that at the one meeting you said well I’ll take the job. Were you seriously interested in it? Did you expect to be considered having not responded to the letter of interest? LT. NADELMAN: Well, I never, at that point, considered the letter of interest being what – at that point, he said, well you didn’t apply. That was just – I wanted to see what he was going to say. I knew, I didn’t know at the time that he’d already hired someone. I could just tell there was something not right. If they said listen, we’re going to give it to you, I would have taken it. I didn’t - not something I wanted to do, but it’s something I would have done for the department as a whole. I would rather give it to someone that wanted it. And I even spoke to – a little background with Pennington. I even asked him, - 85 - you know, about his hiring process. Because when he came in, we sat down. I was Acting Battalion Chief and we sat down and had a conversation. And he had asked me how I felt about him coming in. And I told him that I had nothing personal against him. I said I really have a problem with the process and I explained to him exactly what happened, with the lies right down to, told him the date he signed his condition letter of employment. And he just – I could tell he had no idea. But, I explained to him what happened and that’s what I had an issue with. I said have no problem with you. You’re here. You’re my Training Chief. You know, we get along, no problem. So then I asked him [illegible] and I said well how did you come about getting the job. He said he was just sitting at home one day and the Chief called him up and asked him if he wanted to be the Training Chief. There was no – cause there was no posting, there was no – listen. If you’re just going to arbitrarily give it to anybody, you know, post it. Bring in someone that’s highly qualified. Give our guys a shot to interview with someone else from wherever and let the chips – if that’s what you want to do. And, so part of this goes down to something I had made a comment about earlier. The Chief has brought in his friend, Bob Rogers. The Chief has brought in his friend, Pennington. And, prior to this, the Chief really had no support to go with some of his own agendas as far as not, you know, well we’ll just go on every call and it will fail or let something burn. Our current Battalion Chiefs would never let that happen. They’ve put too much time and dedication in our residents and the City to let something like that happen. You know, it’s only a matter of time as they leave and he starts filling in with people that are going to do what he wants them to do. And then it’s going to become a problem for the City and I firmly believe that. VLS: Do you know if the PSSi report addressed promotions at this level? LT. NADELMAN: They did. VLS: Do you know what their recommendations or comments were? This occurred after the PSSi report presumably – Pennington? LT. NADELMAN: Pennington was after. Yes. Prior to that, Bob Rogers and, as well, like I really don’t want to throw Bill Moyer into the mix. Even though, listen, we did not – me and Bill Moyer did not get along. And I would have much rather seen someone inhouse get the position, but he was well qualified, well suited and the Chief never posted it, there was never an interview. He would have done very well getting the position on his own merits. But that wasn’t the case here. So, I really don’t want to, even though the fact that how he promoted it or how he hired Moyer, you know, he was well deserving the job. He probably would not believe that I said that just now. Don’t tell him. VLS: How did – what was the PSSi’s comments or observations on promotions? Obviously not at the collective bargaining level, but – LT. NADELMAN: Right. There was a section about that there should be a process. This is why I know because the Chief sent like a whole addendum to the report after it came out and one of the things he said in the addendum was, we do have a process for - 86 - Battalion Chiefs. And so that was a lie because we don’t. There might have been one on paper from 2009, but we don’t have a process. VLS: Did he describe in the addendum what the process was? LT. NADELMAN: He just attached the previous posting to it. Which is why I know got that addendum he sent me, so I now I have it. But one of the things in the report was that they should have a process for that. There should be some sort of mentoring program in-house to promote from within the house. And again, for the most part, the guys that are acting Battalion Chiefs are the senior lieutenants there. They all take part in with their Battalion Chiefs. For example, I help Chief DiMaria with the budget when he works on the budget and I can do some things for him when he’s not available and I’m Acting Battalion Chief. And as well, I’m interested in becoming a Battalion Chief, so there is that unofficial mentoring that happens. But they did put something in there about a mentoring program and that we should have a process. And the reason I’m positive that they wrote that we should have a process was because the Chief send them an addendum, like a 14-page agenda, and one of those things, well we do have a process, see? And he knows that’s not true. Because we don’t. I believe he sent, the posting he sent to them that was our process was the one when Battalion Chief Nichols got hired in and tested prior to the Chief coming here. VLS: And that process was not followed, you’re saying with – LT. NADELMAN: With anything, with anybody since he’s been here. VLS: Anybody – as to the items listed under point #3, or under the last point about hiring and promoting personal friends that are unqualified, the witnesses that you believe are important on that point are, I think you probably mentioned them all? LT. NADELMAN: Present at the meeting with the Chief? VLS: Yes. LT. NADELMAN: Was myself, Clissold and Mike Moore. VLS: And Denise Perez is an important – LT. NADELMAN: Well, I know she could at least tell you that I called her and asked her about it. I mean, I guess I could have made up that that’s not was said to me, but I asked her about it and she told me that she did nothing of the sort and had nothing to do with it. VLS: And in terms of documentation, are you aware of any documentation that supports this other than what may be in personnel files as to a letter of intent? I mean an offer letter and that type of thing? - 87 - LT. NADELMAN: The only thing I would say would be that I guess openly I could prove that it was not posted since he’s been here. And he did say to PSSi that he does have a process and sent them a posting. VLS: Alright. LT. NADELMAN: Which we’ve talked about that several times. VLS: Yes. Anything else under the third point expressed in your October 21, 2015 letter? LT. NADELMAN: No. VLS: Why do we – it is 3:15 and I’m going to just check and make sure we still got power. Let’s take about a 10 minute break? LT. NADELMAN: How about 15 minutes? VLS: 15 minutes is perfect. LT. NADELMAN: 3:30 – I’ll run down to the store [illegible]. VLS: Alright. Excellent. VLS: It is now about 3:35 and we’re going back on the record with the interview of Lt. Adam Nadelman and I think when we left off Lieutenant, we were about ready to discuss the fourth enumerated point in the October 21, 2015 letter which is, and quoting: “The Chief has attempted to influence and otherwise cause the Union to undermine some City objectives.” So, there’s a number of bullet points under that in terms of how they are listed in the documents you gave me. Are they in any order of importance or are they in chronological order? LT. NADELMAN: I think I originally tried to do chronological order, but I don’t know how that worked out. I might have lost my place through it for some reason. But I was trying to find one other sheet and then we can go on. Okay. I think we are okay. VLS: Okay. The first bullet point in your document that is: In June 2012 the Chief asked the Union to meet with leaders of Moorings Park to undermine auto aide response with North Naples that City Council members tried to accomplish. I’m going to ask you to explain that and what, you know, what information you have to support that allegation. LT. NADELMAN: Sure. VLS: But, help me first. Educate me about auto aide response. LT. NADELMAN: Obviously cities are not cut out to nice little squares where boundaries are here and kind of in the middle between two districts’ fire stations. So, - 88 - we have a – we have facilities that are very close to Fire Station 2 that’s in the City that are not – that the City doesn’t respond to. That either East Naples, which is Greater Naples now, sorry, Greater Naples or North Collier respond to them even though we’re closer. As well, they have in their districts areas that are closer to them that we respond to. Moorings Park is one of those facilities that’s in the very northeast corner of the City and right around the corner from Moorings Park is Station 40, which is a North Collier fire station. Let me tell you what Moorings Park is. It’s an enclosed community similar to maybe, I don’t know if you know where Bentley Village is. VLS: Yes. LT. NADELMAN: It has in – inside of its walls, inside the gate, when you come through the gate, there is an assisted living facility. There is also a skilled nursing home and then there’s about 14 residential buildings anywhere from 8 stories to 2 stories. And, we run there quite a bit. We run probably 300-400 calls in that community a year. So one of the – one of the points that the Chief had brought to Council several times was, you know, it takes us quite a long time to get there, we run a lot of calls there and we need more people, which is more of the – and again, I don’t, and I think I’ve said this in the beginning, I don’t disagree with the Chief. We probably – we definitely need more personnel. So I don’t disagree with that concept. I just disagree with the means that he’s going about it to try and accomplish it. So, there’s two types of aide when you receive from a neighboring district. There’s mutual aid and auto aide. Mutual aid is when you need a unit from, say North Naples. So if we need them to send us a unit for help or to run a call because we have no units available, we’d call dispatch and, you know, saw we need mutual aid from North Naples to run this call. And then they – the County would dispatch a North Naples unit and they would come run the call for us or come help us on the call we are on, whatever it might be. Auto aide is a little different. Auto aide is automatic. You don’t call and ask for that unit. So, if someone in Moorings Park dialed 911, it would automatically be dispatched to North Naples and they would go run the call, even though it’s in the City of Naples. VLS: Because of geographical proximity? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. Now, prior to Chief McInerny even being here, we had some auto aide arrangements with East Naples, which is now Greater Naples, where we had two places in the City. We had a nursing home at 2626 Goodlette Road North and we had, there was a kind of a low income housing development called Goodlette Arms at 954 Goodlette Road North, and we used to respond auto aide to those all the time. Then they – and again, this is all prior to the Chief. This is just more of an explanation. So, Greater Naples, which was East Naples, and North Naples, they had built a new fire station, which in proximity, was a lot closer than any of their other stations had been to the City prior to that. So, they stopped having us run auto aide to those locations and started running it themselves. How the decision was made, I don’t know. It was before the Chief was here, so he had nothing to do with this. And – so still that one unit that I was talking about, 2626 Goodlette Road North, literally is – I can walk out the front apron of my fire station and look down the block and see it, but East Naples will still run to that from their location which is closer than it was before but still a lot further away - 89 - when I literally can see it from our station. Again, nothing to do with the Chief. These were decisions that were made by whomever and way above my predate prior to the Chief coming. VLS: Can I stop you there? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: Are the auto aide agreements something that are in writing? LT. NADELMAN: I would assume they would have to be. And again, this really has nothing to do with the Chief. This is just a little history. VLS: I asked for that. LT. NADELMAN: So, Moorings Park used to be in North Naples district. It was a County entity and they had, and I want to say even prior to the Chief, but it might have been right around his entry to the City, they annexed into the City of Naples. So after they annexed, there’s a four year – I don’t know if it’s a law or what it is, but, basically, they still have control over the running there for the four years. So the four year timeframe came up and they annexed into the City. Well they annexed to the City then four years came up and we started running North Naples. And now we just basically added 300-400 calls a year to the City in Fire Station 2’s district and it’s, of course, about as far, well it’s as far north as you can get from our district. Some of the Council members and the Mayor had brought up in Council meetings, you know, we should try and get, you know, instead of hiring more people or buying a new truck to respond out there, we should see if would could get some kind of auto aide agreement with North Naples. VLS: To cover Moorings? LT. NADELMAN: To cover Moorings Park. Yeah. Now, conceptually, I don’t know how that would have worked, if it would have worked or not worked, but, you know, obviously they get annexed out of North Naples and [illegible] our responsibility, the City gets the tax money for all but now they want them to still run it. So, I’m not saying it would have been something that was – they would have been like, oh yeah, we’ll take that back, but the City and the Mayor had said this is something we should look into working onto. So, where am I? In June 2012, the Chief asked the Union – so I had received – and I had had some conversations with the Chief prior to June 2012 about Moorings Park. We’ve talked about it, you know, running there, not running there, you know, how can we make it more efficient. But he had asked me personally if I would go to Moorings Park. And, now the reason he asked, is because I do know the people that run Moorings Park as well. But, he clearly wanted me as the Union because he couldn’t undermine and go behind the City’s wanting to do this. He wanted me to meet with the people over at Moorings Park to try and persuade them to step in and put a stop to this. I actually have – it’s not much, but it’s a text message I have from Chief McInerny to myself basically asking me to do it. - 90 - VLS: I think we’re onto #5 just for purposes of kind of numbering this for the record. This is what you handed me as the one page document which is a screen shot of a text message sent June 12, 2012? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: And, it is – there’s two segments to it. And this came to you from the Chief about 3:07? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: Explain for me the significance of this. LT. NADELMAN: So, the text message from the Chief says: Hope all is well. You might consider letting head guy at Moorings Park know that Doug Finlay (Doug Finlay is a Council member) and friends want to turn fire rescue services for Moorings Parks over to North Naples. This will mean 911 picked up in the city will tried to be transferred to the County and hope that fire can respond from the County. So, this is him wanting me to go to Moorings Park and get them, you know, obviously if the 911 goes from the City instead, it goes to the County, there’s a dispatch delay in trying to get the, I guess the CEO or COO of Moorings Park to say, hey, we don’t want North Naples to run us. We want the City to run us. And, again, is undermining what the Council has directed, or the Mayor directed the Council at the time, let’s look into possibility of doing auto aide. VLS: Where is reflected that the Council and Mayor at this point in time were encouraging auto aide agreement? LT. NADELMAN: I’d have to go through the Council meetings. It came up several times. Again, it was one of those issues. It’s been an issue for a while with the City. VLS: Did you respond to the June 12, 2012 text? LT. NADELMAN: I’ll have to pull it up on my phone. I don’t think I might have, but, and again, I’d be glad to show you right from the phone the actual message. The actual messages. VLS: As you are looking, did you in fact meet with the leaders of Moorings Park? LT. NADELMAN: No. I did not. Most of the things that the Chief asked me to do I have not done just because I don’t agree with the way he wants to go about it. Granted, it is probably easier to go behind Council to get something done, but, you know, ultimately, they are, ya know, they represent the citizens that we provide service to. VLS: Did the Chief ever follow up with you to inquire, I know you are still looking for that. - 91 - LT. NADELMAN: Yeah I know, I’m coming right up to it. So no, and I can show you that I have no reply. So, let me see the text message prior to that was May 18, then June 2012, then the next is July 25th. VLS: Did the Chief ever inquire as to whether you had met with the head guy at Moorings Park? LT. NADELMAN: No, I mean, we had several conversations about it. Ya know, about some of the ideas. Not just in June 2012 but ya know, going forward he’s asked me to go there before about things. And I just say, “oh that’s something I’ll look into.” It’s easier than arguing with him about, ya know, I don’t agree with that, than I just kinda not do anything. VLS: Did you inform anyone about this text message? For instance, members of Council. LT. NADELMAN: No. I probably had conversations within the Union about it, but 2012, I don’t remember if I did or didn’t. VLS: Do you now if this is something that was brought, this particular incident was brought, or the issue of auto aide response was a topic that PSSI looked into? LT. NADELMAN: specifically. I think they did look into some aide agreements but I don’t know VLS: Is there anything else on that particular point? You’ve viewed this text message as an attempt, or it’s an example in your mind of an attempt to influence the Union to undermine the City objective? LT. NADELMAN: Sure, absolutely. VLS: But, it did not otherwise cause the Union to undermine because you didn’t carry through with it? LT. NADELMAN: Correct. I don’t actually, other than one instance where I actually carried through with something, and I did it as best I could. But, uh, I didn’t follow through with any of the things here at all. VLS: Alright. LT. NADELMAN: Other than the very last point which when we get to it. VLS: Tell me about, why don’t you read your next point. LT. NADELMAN: Sure. “In October 2014 the Chief tried to influence the Local to make a public records request on the NAA Director Ted Soliday so we could find communications between him and multiple city council members and file Sunshine Law violations against them.” So, a little history about the airport which has been an ever - 92 - changing thing for quite some time. So in 2014, there was a lot of turmoil between, I don’t even know if I should say the Department and the Airport Director, the City and the Airport Director. There was a lot of issues that came up about how much the airport was payment, how much the City was subsidizing the airport over, obviously this is 2014. Probably started maybe six months prior to that. There was a fire at the airport, well across the street from the airport, not in our district. And it seemed from that date forward started a whole fight between the Chief and the Airport Director. Again, I don’t know what kind of communications the two of them had, but it has been an issue ever since then. VLS: And the Airport Director at that time, still is, Ted Soliday. LT. NADELMAN: So, I had several conversations with the Chief about this. Probably prior to October, probably in September as well. Because the airport was inquiring about providing its own fire service and there was legal matters if they could do it, if they couldn’t do it. And, so the Chief had told me that he felt Councilman Finlay and friends, he always references to “and friends”. He refers to the gentleman named Marvin Eastman. I don’t know if you’ve heard. VLS: I’ve heard the name, yes. LT. NADELMAN: He’s friends with the council members and he’s a very outspoken member of the community on how he feels about the Chief and the fire service in general, not just the Chief. So the Chief felt that they were communicating between each other and there were these blast e-mails going out throughout the community. And wanted us to make a public records request, specifically asking me to make a public records request and we would catch a whole lot of them in Sunshine Law violations because they aren’t allowed to speak to each other outside of council meetings about city issues. VLS: How did he make that request? LT. NADELMAN: He asked me. He verbally asked me. But, following up with that, and I don’t remember if it was on the actual day, but he sent me this e-mail. Attached to the e-mail was text messages as well. So I’ll hand you this e-mail from – VLS: Okay, I’m just going to pencil in #6 on this which, tell me what it is. LT. NADELMAN: Attached. This is an e-mail from Chief McInerny to me. And this is on City e-mail, so you could pull it up as well. I highlighted the date and time, Tuesday, October 14, 2014 at 6:13 p.m. To the best of my recollection, and I can be off, but I believe he had talked to me about it this day, and then e-mailed me this. What I’m showing you is he sent me an e-mail, or an outline of a public records request that he wanted me to file. And he actually wrote it out, I don’t know if you want to read the whole thing but VLS: I think I can see, I mean I may have other questions, but I understand that you, he was asking you how he wanted it. And how he wanted it. - 93 - LT. NADELMAN: He was outlining how he wanted it, exactly, yes. And on the bottom, all responses to this public records request should be made in writing to the following e-mail address, whomever, which he wanted me to put fill in my e-mail address and obviously my name and whatever street. Okay, so he wrote it out to a T on how he wanted me to do this. Then, if you turn the page, this is exactly the next day, the following morning. Now before I get into that, part of our conversation he asked me to do this was that the airport received bids from outside companies. One of those outside companies that put a bid in for services was Rural Metro. He had told me I could contact, he gave me a contact name from the International, but I followed up with that myself. I think I got the phone number of the vice-president for Rural Metro and called and left a message for them. So after he sent me that, the next day, October 15, he asked if I had spoke with, “Did you speak with VP from Rural Metro?” VLS: I’m sorry, I guess I need to go back. Did he ask you to contact Rural Metro? LT. NADELMAN: Um, I don’t recall. He did mention to me that Rural Metro had some sort of arrangement with the International IFF. Basically that they wouldn’t go into a place that was part of a fire department jobs. VLS: I see. LT. NADELMAN: So, I had called the contact that I had at International who ultimately gave me this gentleman’s phone number. I was basically following up with Metro to find out the status of what they are doing. So he asked me, “Did you speak with VP from Rural Metro?” “I haven’t heard from him yet.” And then he replied, “Okay, it would be awesome to verify some of Teddy’s alleged negative comments.” Assuming Ted Soliday. “In addition to his email records you request his outgoing and incoming telephone logs for 60 or 90 days. Treasure trove of information.” So not only does this show that he sent me this and asked me to do this, he even followed up with asking me to get his phone records. Now when we spoke – VLS: Now does he, just to back up, is he in your opinion, is he asking you to do it as Union president? LT. NADELMAN: Well, he had told me when we met, because we had a long conversation before he sent me this that day. It basically told me that Mr. Moss had told him not to get involved in this, the City was going to stay hand’s off. So he wanted me to do it because he couldn’t as a department director. And, uh, other than the e-mails and text messages which I think speak for themselves, even after I spoke with the Chief, I had talked to Chris Clissold, he was the Vice-President. Because I was in the meeting with (inaudible) with the Chief and myself. I don’t remember if I was BC that day or why I ended up talking with him that day. But, ya know I even told Chris about this and I said, “Listen, I don’t think it’s a good idea for us to do this. It’s not going to look to the Union asking for this kind of stuff.” But I was just asking to get his opinion as Vice President, and I was President. And so, ya know he should be able to verify at least some sort of conversation that we had. - 94 - VLS: The two of you? LT. NADELMAN: Yes, because he wasn’t present when I spoke with the Chief. VLS: And it was just you and the Chief that spoke on this topic on October 14. LT. NADELMAN: Yes, and like normally like most of our conversations, it’s a he said she said but he did send me this information which will at least back up what I’m saying. VLS: And did you respond to the Chief’s text on October 15. LT. NADELMAN: Well let’s just see. I tried to keep all the texts from the dates. Whoops, I don’t think I’m in the right year. Okay, so here is the actual messages. Um, and – October 15. So this was the day, so this is about a council meeting approved our fire bill. VLS: Okay. So there is nothing that you responded to in text or e-mail. LT. NADELMAN: Actually, this is the same day if you look it was October 15 at 10:00 a.m. and these were at 1:00 p.m. just a few hours later. We were just on a different subject. VLS: Okay, it was not the subject of a text back. Did you have communications with the Chief by e-mail or verbally that were responsive to his October 15, 2014 e-mail? LT. NADELMAN: No, I just kind of, just like all or most of the stuff that he’s asked me to do, that, ya know, I have to look at it from my point of view. He’s asking me to do it because he’ll get in trouble if he does it. It’s not going to look good if I do it. So, a lot of the things, just yeah okay, whatever you want us to be the bad guy and then not support us if we need your help. I’m not getting involved in that. VLS: But you did not tell him that you were not going to do it. You just did not. LT. NADELMAN: Just didn’t do it. And again, it was one of those things you kinda, after this October, after, I shouldn’t say. After the contract for the airport was expiring January 1 of, or December 31, 2014 and there was, I believe subsequent airport meetings in the City that they would be trying to negotiate and trying to come up with a new deal, and they would just continue month to month with the contract that the City had with the airport. Any termination on either side would take a 90 day notice. And so, we were just rolling along with months to months on this. So it kinda died for a little bit. It was still an issue but at that time, it just died for just a little bit. VLS: Did you tell anyone other than consulting with Chris Clissold about the Chief’s, your conversation with the Chief on October 14 and his text on October 15? LT. NADELMAN: Um, I probably did, but it’s not like it was a big secret. I probably mentioned it to several of the guys. I don’t know one specifically because I just, it was just another thing the Chief was asking me to do that I wasn’t going to follow. - 95 - VLS: Was there any communication of this information to city management? Or to city council? LT. NADELMAN: No. Not back then, no. VLS: Was this particular issue something that the Union, or was one of the things that was specifically considered? LT. NADELMAN: Yes, it was number 4. And again, honestly, after our ALS grievance, that was January prior in that same year, after bringing that with what the Chief said about ya know, we went over that whole thing. So Roger had nothing happen. A lot of this stuff was just why bother. Ya know, we’re the bad Union guys. And so, again, any one little thing might not be an issue. It’s everything put together. VLS: Do you know whether anyone communicated this information or concern to PSSI? LT. NADELMAN: If anyone would have it would have been myself, and I didn’t. I don’t remember speaking to them specifically about it. VLS: Alright. Is there anything further on that bullet point that you want to tell me. LT. NADELMAN: No. VLS: Okay, let’s go to the next bullet point under #4. And I’m just reading from the first sentence. “Around February/March 2015 In an effort to stop the presentation of Making Data Driven Decision from ICMA, McInerny tried to influence the Local to hire Attorney Bob Bates to make a similar public records request as he did back in October on the Mayor and Council.” I am going to stop there and ask for some education and clarification. ICMA stands for? LT. NADELMAN: Why’d you have to ask me that? (laughter) VLS: Because I don’t know. LT. NADELMAN: I’d have to Google it. It’s a company, like a major company. Human resources uses them a lot. They do a lot of 401(k) plans. It’s a big, big company. VLS: Like a vendor that the county deals with, or city deals with, excuse me? LT. NADELMAN: They do, I mean, if you are not against me Googling it. VLS: No, I’m not against it. Of course not. LT. NADELMAN: Okay. Just so you know you can write down what it is. Let’s see. It’s going to come up with the company’s name I’m sure. ICMA.org – leaders at the core of better communities. Professional and educational association appointed local - 96 - government administrators. So they do everything from manage retirements to career job. I figured it say what it stands for. But it doesn’t say what it stands for. VLS: Okay what is Making Data Driven Decision? LT. NADELMAN: Okay, so this came up at a Council meeting. You’ll have to forgive me because I don’t have the dates. This is all around the same time the City asked, and it might even been before this, like in January, when the City asked to have a company come in a do a fire department evaluation. And they ultimately chose PSSI. And this was while they were working on the report obviously, because they had already been hired. PSSI had already been hired. Some of, and again, and I am really just speaking on assumption, some of the council members felt that they just hired this company to do an evaluation on the fire department and I think, it’s my own opinion, feared that the company might come in and say we need people, when we are trying to not, might not agree with Council. One of the council members actually in favor of hiring people was not in favor of paying for PSSI to come in because why are we going to pay $45,000 for a report that you are not going to follow if they are going to ask you to do the opposite. I think that was Councilman Barnett at a meeting. I thought it was funny because he supports the fire department and didn’t want to spend the money for a report knowing that Council might not follow it, or all of Council. So, this company, or this Making Data Decision from, and there is an e-mail, if you take the next, oh sorry, it’s right here. You can call this #7. And, go to the back thread of it. So, if you look at the bottom “The City of Naples will be hosting the subject seminar presented by Leonard Matarese and Thomas whatever (Exhibit 7 states “Thomas Wieczorek”) from The Center for Public Safety Management” – oh here ya go – “International City/County Management Association.” VLS: That’s ICMA. LT. NADELMAN: There ya go. “The Seminar will be held on Friday May 29th” and so all city and fire commissioners, so forth and so on. It just went out to a slew of people. Basically, was a public posted meeting, and Marvin Eastman, although was a citizen, was kind appointed contact to send out and Leonard Matarese and his, if you had to word this, the City does have a copy of this Seminar. It ultimately wound up being rescheduled and it wasn’t here. It was at the County Commissioner’s office. But, uh, it’s looked at as more of an anti-fire department, anti-police department staffing. More of a, I guess, how do I explain it, more of like along the lines of a Florida league of cities. They look at less staffing and reducing staffing versus increase in staffing. So, and again, that’s my take on it. VLS: To your knowledge, who was paying for – LT. NADELMAN: The City. The City was going to pay for it. They, which was kind of, this was before the report was even done. The joke around the station was the City is paying, I think $5,000 to have a seminar to refute a report that they just paid $45,000 for. Again, the report hadn’t come out, no one knew what it was going to say. But that was the feeling of it. - 97 - VLS: But this was something that City Council had voted on to host. LT. NADELMAN: Yes, to host, correct. And, um, there were several conversations about it at the council meetings, between say January and May. That came up. The, I had several conversations with the Chief about it. He had sent me a copy of Leonard Matarese’s one hour seminar. I watched it. And then, I think he attached, I don’t’ know, to the computer on the hard drives with the computer. Not the hard drives, but in the network. So anybody at any station can look at it. And it was basically, you know, instead of 24 hour shifts, make 12 hour shifts, less people at night, more people in the day. That kind of staffing. Production that they had. And so this was looked at from the Chief’s standpoint, and from ours, that this was not necessarily good, a good fire department thing for all fire departments, not just the City. Agree, disagree, right wrong or indifferent. So the Chief, again, so, in March of, oh no, this was February/March. We had several conversations. Probably even in January. January, February, March about this Leonard Matarese and you know, the Chief had a lot of things to say about him. And again, he asked me to do the same thing that he asked me prior to with the NAA. You really need to do a public records request on this Adam. He told me directly, I was acting battalion chief several times. You know, the Mayor, Council get all this information there should be so much things in communicating in between each other, even reference Sam Saad as a council member who is also an attorney. He said, oh you’ll wind up getting him in a Sunshine Law Violation you can get him disbarred. And he just went on. Because in the Chief’s mind, and as well there are several council members up there that are not fans of the fire department. Doug Finlay is one of them. Sam Saad is definitely another one. Again, I blame the Chief for that. He’s brought this, he’s brought so many different things, some of the things we went over. The fire station. The boat. Where he has these half-truths and the integrity or lack of integrity is why I think they attack us so much. Everybody. Everybody, and I really can’t speak for everybody, but the majority of the fire department personnel, and I would have to even say the battalion chiefs, but definitely the Union workers feel that some of these council members have, are so angry with us because of the things the Chief has been doing. Which is why we are in this position of having these companies come in and try to refute a report that they asked for. Um, and uh, so the Chief felt if, ya know, we get a public records request on the Mayor and Council and all their personal e-mails and ya know, that’s it. They will all be caught. Ya know, I know they are talking behind my back. And that’s him saying that. VLS: He wanted you to do the public records request – LT. NADELMAN: That he asked me to do in October, again. But he specifically asked me to hire Attorney Bob Bates which was a friend of his from Fort Lauderdale who now works on Marco Island. VLS: To hire Bob Bates to do – LT. NADELMAN: He wanted the Union to, he said, “What you guys need to do is hire Bob Bates. I know him. He’s an attorney. He used to work for the City of Fort Lauderdale. He’s a friend of mine. He works on Marco Island. Hire Bob to get a public - 98 - records request on the Mayor and Council.” He used that word “treasure trove” on Sunshine Law Violations, which he had in one of his text messages.. VLS: This again was in a face to face conversation? LT. NADELMAN: Yes, face to face conversation. And uh, ya know, if there was no way I was going to go get a public records request on the Mayor and all of Council. Especially on behalf of the Union. No. It is, might as well just take my contact and put it on fire. Ya know, I’m not. Ya know, it’s just. Okay Chief, sure, whatever. We’ll look into that. Never followed up on that. And then I received – VLS: Did anybody else ever do the records request? LT. NADELMAN: Well as you go through this, I will share that with you. VLS: Oh okay. LT. NADELMAN: So, in March, 2015, I received a phone call from Chris Spencer. He’s the Union President of North Naples Fire District. And this is my sub-bullet point to this. And uh, he told me, and I don’t remember word for word, but basically Chief McInerny was trying to get in touch with him and asked me if I might be in contact with the Chief. So, for the same thing, if I wanted to talk to Orly Stoltz who’s the Chief in North Naples, yeah I could just call him up but I am going to call their Union. It’s just kinda a courtesy thing. So I said, “yeah, I don’t care.” I think I even gave him the Chief’s number, but I don’t recall. Um, not thinking anything of it. I had replied to this e-mail that I handed you already. VLS: Number 7? LT. NADELMAN: Yes, Number 7. I replied to this e-mail originally confirming to Marvin Eastman that I would attend. And then if you see, the original message dated Thursday, April 2 I sent it to ericardo and cspencer. They’re both union representatives at North Naples is who they are. Okay. And um, “FYI, I don’t know if you guys know who Leonard Matarese is but is not on our side. This will be very interesting and I encourage you to reply to Marvin Eastman to reserve a seat.” And the same day, Chris Spencer replied back to me. You can see cspencer13155@yahoo.com back to me. “Thanks Adam. I received a copy of his propaganda video and hand delivered it to the FPF in Tallahassee to V.P. Salvatore.” He’s the vice president for the Florida Professional Firefighters. “I told him that Matarese has a history doing things like this for ICMA. The IAFF has dealt with this guy before, and so I begged them to please pack the house to refute his outlandish stories. I believe it’s moving forward.” Referring to the meeting is going to move forward. Then, and I’m just reading, “The God Damn chiefs need to get off their asses too and PUT some skin in the game.” And then if you note, and I’ve highlighted it underneath, he put in parentheses, “Note: I know Chief McInerny is all in.” I never really thought about what that meant when I got it. He spelt the name wrong and stuff with auto correct because it came from his phone. It says from Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone. So, I never really, at the time, paid attention. I know he talked to the Chief so, all in, what does that mean, I don’t know. Didn’t really think - 99 - anything of it. So, then the next sub-bullet point I have, this is “After the Local did not follow up with the Chief’s suggestions, the labor union from North Naples filed a similar action in May 2015.” They actually did hire, not just filed a public records request on the Mayor and Council. They used Bob Bates. And that’s, um, I wrote a note somewhere, it’s in a May Council meeting where Bob Bates, or it was brought up where, but yeah. So North Naples. Now, maybe it’s a coincidence. I can’t tell you that the Chief told them to hire Bob Bates. But I can tell you for a fact that he told me to do it, I have written where he has asked me to do it before. I know Chris Spencer spoke, well asked me, I don’t know if he spoke with him. He asked me for his phone number. He referred to that he is all in on the reply. And then I can just tell you the subsequent month in May that Bob Bates filed a lawsuit asking for a public records request from all of Council and the Mayor. I never actually looked at the actual public records but it’s on file at the City. VLS: Now was there a lawsuit or it? LT. NADELMAN: I believe, and again, it’s I think it was both. I’m not 100% positive. I don’t know. I’d have to pull it up and actually read it. But it was talked at a heated debate at Council meeting. You know I know the City spent a lot of money replying to it, filling out whatever they did. I don’t even know what they ultimately did because, kind of. I could tell you ultimately after that day, they wound up moving the Data Driven Financial or making that their own decisions out of the City Council Chambers and it wound up being at Collier County Council Chambers. VLS: When did it actually take place? LT. NADELMAN: I think it stayed the same day. I believe it did. And so, prior to the May 29th, I think it was May 19th or 20th, cause I did look it up while I was writing this to get but I don’t remember the exact day. And so, yes, it was just a coincidence that North Naples hired Bob Bates? Maybe they had friends with him, I don’t know. But this was exactly asked of me by the Chief and I wanted nothing to do with it. VLS: Did you ever talk to Chris Spencer about you, you didn’t follow up with him? LT. NADELMAN: I actually saw him at the meeting, which was just following that. And I’ve seen him several times since then. But he was at the meeting, and I went to the meeting in May at Council Chambers. And actually Bob Bates was there. He introduced me to Bob Bates. First time I even knew who he was. I think I made a comment to Bob Bates about ya know, I know the Chief had mentioned you before. And uh, so my next sub-point refers to that same meeting on September 11 where myself, Chris, and Mike Moore with the Chief. And uh, VLS: This was the meeting that was called that the purpose was about promotion? LT. NADELMAN: This was the same meeting about promotions. It was the Friday prior to finding out about Pennington. This was the same meeting where he told us about, maybe we shouldn’t put out those little fires. And so, in this meeting, during the September 15th, it’s actually September 11th, 2015, “Chief McInerny, Clissold, Moore and myself the Chief brought up the public records request again telling us that we - 100 - should contact Chris Spencer from North Naples and get the e-mails from them.” This is the only time we’ve spoken about it since he asked me to do it. We might have spoken sometime about between May and September, I don’t recall. But again, he brought, well you should contact them to get it. Again, I wanted, like I told you, I saw nothing at all good coming from our Union making a public records request on the Mayor and Council. So. Um. VLS: Was any, did you or to your knowledge, anyone with the Union or Naples Fire Department share this information with any member of Council or City Manager’s office? LT. NADELMAN: No. And again, this goes back to the last time we brought something to the City Manager which we thought was, this might be morally not the best thing to do, but the ALS thing, we thought was just the worst thing possible. You are fine with someone dying to prove your case and the City just let it go. Now again, they could have thought it was our word against his and believed the Chief. I don’t know. But honestly, after that, why bother bringing anything to do the city any more. That’s how we felt. VLS: And if there was someone at the City to bring it to, was it your understanding it would be the City Manager’s office? If you were going to bring it – LT. NADELMAN: Generally my contact is with Roger Reinke, this is the City Manager and his labor relations manager. So, normally when I have something, even if I send it to Moss, I will always CC Roger or I’ll call Roger directly. I have his number, he has my number, I have his personal cell phone. And yeah, I could. And uh, anytime we have brought something small to the City, like I said, it got swept under, wiped away all those grievances. There was even, ya know, I had brought, I had a conversation, I was contacted, you remember how, was I contacted or did I see him? I don’t remember, specifically. But I talked to Councilman Saad and I’ve phoned him several times. So I don’t remember what it was. But brought to him the promotional situation process and three days later, he must have said something to Moss or someone, I’m assuming it got back to Moss. And then three days later, out comes this whole defense on how we, there’s an e-mail sent out from Moss to all of Council about um, ya know, and actually I think I brought that with me. I did. Alright, so there is an e-mail. VLS: Let me just mark this as Number 8. LT. NADELMAN: So this is October 5th. So spoke with Sam Saad probably end of September. And out comes this just huge three page defense on how the Chief’s hiring practice is, there is nothing wrong with them, and um, ya know, he talks about Chief McInerny, third paragraph, “Chief McInerny has been with the City over six years. During that time he has promoted 18 personnel.” Well if you really take away the eight drivers and six lieutenants, because that’s contractually, you can’t not do that. So now you are down to four people. Okay. So, again, it’s just things like this, the little, it seems like to us, to the bargaining unit, if we bring something, because again, I talked about this before. Any single one of these items, although some of them are serious - 101 - allegations, for the most part they’re really not that big of a deal on its own. So when you bring something to them, like the ALS grievance, well it’s his word against theirs. There really is no proof. Chief denied it, ya know, he’s department director. Ya know, bad union, we’re a part of League of Cities. Um, and it just gets swept over. You bring the promotional process and so out comes this whole big e-mail from Moss to all of Council on how, ya know, here is “a comment made by a member of City Council during the Fire Master Plan that suggested a lack of promotional opportunities within the Naples Fire-Rescue Department.” And he goes on to say how great the Chief’s been doing everything fine. I can tell you just by looking at this, other than the similar to the last page, this is all Chief McInerny wrote this stuff. Moss probably said, hey listen Council is questioning me about your promotions. He probably just blasted this out to him. Ya know, it says here “Fire Marshall Bob Rogers was promoted from within (Fire Prevention Bureau). He had been working as a Fire Inspector/Plans Examiner in the Department” (Exhibit 8 states “in the NFD”). “for four years.” But it doesn’t say that he came, hired with nothing. And then, we don’t hire fire fighters that are not certified fire fighters. We hire certified fire fighters. It just, again, yes, he was promoted internally from the beach patrol. Again, there is a lot of half-truths in here that make it sound like, well that’s an internal candidate. These are why we stopped bringing things. Um. Which is why also, if you haven’t asked me, but I will tell you, why when I sent this to Moss, I cc’d the Mayor and Council. I wanted someone else to see what we said. Because you never asked, I thought you were going to ask, um. And again, I guess if I’m looking at it from the City Manager’s perspective, am I going to believe my Department Director who I trust with everything, yeah. I get, ya know, that’s what he’s supposed to do, support the Department Director. VLS: So you sent – this memo was from – Moss sent to the Mayor and City Council. LT. NADELMAN: Correct. And then someone gave me a copy of it. VLS: Okay, alright. And this was something that was known to you before the October 21 letter and was one, is one of the reasons for point #4? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. And point #4 and #3 as well. It’s just, I got very upset when I saw this. Ya know, here we are, we are discussing as the Union, some of our concerns. And again, several conversations with Councilman Saad. But, ya know, so he takes what we have and brings it to the City and the City turns it around and puts this out. Right, wrong or indifferent. I’m not saying Moss did anything wrong. But it just makes it look like everything I said is just garbage. It’s just another thing that, ya know, what do we do from here? People are getting upset. These are just other things that just pile on top, but ya know what, we’ll just do it at our vote of no confidence and we are going to take what we know and what we have. And listen, a lot of this is he said she said. There is nothing I can do about that. I guess if you’ve had half a dozen people and they all said he said, then maybe it makes a difference. Maybe it doesn’t. I don’t know. VLS: Was anybody, when you had the conversations with Sam Saad, in what context did those, were those phone conversations? - 102 - LT. NADELMAN: Some of them were phone conversations. Some of them he called me, some of them I called him. One of them was in his office. I met him in his office. VLS: Any e-mails back and forth between you and Mr. Saad? LT. NADELMAN: No. VLS: Alright. LT. NADELMAN: No, this is not from Mr. Saad by the way. VLS: No, I understand that but you are telling me that preceding this you had communications with Mr. Saad which you were telling me were phone and one meeting in his office. And soon after that, the e-mail of October 5, 2015 which we marked as Number 8 went out from Bill Moss to the Mayor and City Council. LT. NADELMAN: Correct. VLS: Okay, just wanted to make sure I understood that. LT. NADELMAN: Did you have a 4:30 thing you had to do? VLS: I’m not sure, let me check. LT. NADELMAN: Do you want to go off the record while you do that? VLS: Yes, why don’t we do that. Thank you very much for reminding me. It is now 4:32 p.m. and we are going to take a 10 minute break, maybe longer so I am going to turn off the recorder. And on my recorder, its 5 hours 31 minutes and 50 seconds. BREAK VLS: Okay, we are going back on the record. It is about 4:37 p.m. and this is a continuation of the interview of Lt. Nadelman. And I think, have we finished a discussion of the sub-bullets that fall under the segment about stopping the presentation of making data driven decision. LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: What is the next bullet point that you have under the 4th point that, “The Chief has attempted to influence and otherwise cause the Union to undermine some City objectives.” LT. NADELMAN: Okay, so now we are into just recent of this year. The airport thing that we referred back to in October of 2014 is back up as a heated debate. Negotiations between the City and the airport, and I believe the City being the City Manager and the airport consolidate airport director, have been stalled. They haven’t made a deal. They haven’t made up any decisions on what to do, or how they want to proceed with this. So I am going to give you a stack of text messages. They talk about different things, - 103 - but mostly about the airport and what the City’s intentions were. We go into this middle one, just to back up my point here. VLS: These are all texts from the Chief to your – LT. NADELMAN: These are all texts from my phone. And they are all screen shots and I have my phone here if you want to verify them. I just go the middle of this one because it backs up a conversation I had with the Chief in early September, as with just myself and Chris Clissold and the Chief. He wanted us to, you know what, I take that back. This might as well been the September 11 meeting as well now that I think about it. Let me see the date on that text message, we would be able to answer that. Going backwards because there were quite few. So September 10. So this was, this text message was prior to the date of the September 11th meeting. So let me just make sure. I’m going to go back to my messages and go to recent ones. Just so I’m speaking appropriately. Yes, this is September 10th. In the September 11th meeting, the one that we met originally for promotions and talked about several different things, the Chief wanted the Union to write letters to the tenants that live around the airport to get the airport to write letters to Ted Soliday trying to keep the City from pulling service from the airport. And again, this was something that the City Manager has apparently told the Chief because he told us. And again, whether it’s true or not, I don’t know, to stay out of the airport thing. VLS: It’s your impress- you believe the City Manager told – LT. NADELMAN: No, no, no. Chief McInerny had implied to us, or told us directly, again, I wish I remembered exactly but I can’t, that basically the City Manager told him to stay out of this. So he wanted us to do this because he had been directed by the City Manager to just keep out of it. He wanted us to approach all the tenants that had hangers at the airport to write letters to Ted Soliday and he wanted us to write a letter and mail it to all the tenants. Us being the Union. To try and circumvent. And again, we didn’t want the airport to pull out and lose service for any of that either. I’m not saying that we just wanted the airport to go away. We didn’t want to lose providing service to the airport either. But again, this was something that the Airport Director and the City Manager have been working on and so the Chief was trying to get us to get more involved with it by writing letters. And again, circumventing the City itself. He couldn’t do it because he made it clear the City Manager didn’t’ want him to interfere. So this whole thing with text messages, I just highlighted that one message because, and again, an unintentional, I don’t think that was an autocorrect, how he spelled Ted Soliday’s last name. But, ah, we’ll go through all the messages after. I just wanted to point that out. VLS: Okay, I’m looking now for where was the highlight? LT. NADELMAN: All in the one day. So all the text messages are from the same day. VLS: Okay, here it is. I see, this is your highlighting here, that begins with “you need to”. Now, are these - 104 - LT. NADELMAN: Those are mine. VLS: Those are your responses? So what shows in a darker print is your response? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. And so if you go back to the beginning of these, that will follow up on the next point. But I just wanted to point out that one text message that lists what he’s told us the following day what to do, or asked us to. And then this last response, this last point and sub-bullet because they are all from the same conversation here which probably went. Okay, so we talked about VLS: Moving, before we finish with the second to last bullet on the document that you’ve handed me that we marked as #3, you are referring to the September 11, 2015 meeting that this came up? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: And prior to that meeting on September 10 there were these text messages. LT. NADELMAN: Between the Chief and myself. VLS: And at the meeting itself, was that simply reiterating what is in the text messages? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: So also present at this meeting, would have been Clissold and Moore. Where did that meeting take place? LT. NADELMAN: At the Chief’s office. VLS: How did, if at all, how did you, Clissold or Moore respond to the Chief’s request at the Union write letters to the business and tenants at the Naples Airport Authority? LT. NADELMAN: I think we left it like we normally do. We’re going to look into that. See if we can put something together. I don’t know, again not quoted, but just like I’ve done in the past. VLS: Yes, okay, very good. Was there, did the Union, in fact write any letters? LT. NADELMAN: No. VLS: Okay so no action was taken on that? VLS: Okay we are going to take a quick break. It is 4:46 p.m. and I am going to turn off the recorder and we’ll probably get back in about 10 minutes. LT. NADELMAN: No problem. - 105 - VLS: Okay we are going back on the record after taking a break with the continued interview with Lt. Nadelman. It is about 5:05 p.m. Let’s see, I want to segue back into what we were discussing. I believe the last two bullet points in the document that we marked #3, both begin with “In September 2015”. Do both of those bullet points, are they are reference to your meeting with the Chief on September 11, 2015? Well, I guess not the second one. LT. NADELMAN: The first one does. And the - the first one does. VLS: Is there any further documentation you provided me with in text chain that, I guess we didn’t really mark that. #9. And that’s various texts, it’s not a chain. It’s a number of different days. LT. NADELMAN: Well the first one, alright so, I attached the first one. The reason I attached, I guess these could have been separate. These tie into the whole stack here of one is August 9, and might even be the reason I did it is because there was no emails in between and I just printed them all out. So let me just double check that real quick. So. Alright. So they are all attached together for the simple reason of the last point. So I’ll just read the last bullet point. “In September 2015 The Chief indicated to the union on several occasions that the city is trying to terminate fire positions in an effort to get the union to create a public outcry.” So, and this goes from August 9, and I was actually out of town when I received this text message from the Chief. The Chief, I don’t know, “A few things for your consideration. Rideout and the Mayor” – Rideout is the Chairman of the Naples Airport Authority Board. VLS: Thank you. LT. NADELMAN: So “Rideout the Mayor want to proceed with terminating fire rescue services at the airport. They don’t believe that the airport needs fire protection. This of course is contrary to the PSSI report. Marvin Eastman and friends are upset that the study indicated more emphasis on EMS. They are pushing to end EMS responses and thus not need for additional personnel, certifications and personnel.” So I was out of town when I got this. And, apparently this e-mail, or text message, I got a phone call from, I want to say, for sure, Gerry Pecar, who at the time was the treasurer. He is no longer with the Union, and Chris Clissold. Now, to the best of my recollection, the Chief had sent this to me and asked Chief DiMaria if I was on duty or something to that effect. Then he told the Chief I was out of town, because he knew I was out of town. So he either sent this, a copy of this somehow, or an e-mail or text message both to Jerry or Chris. I’m not sure how that was, through either text message forwarded from Chief DiMaria or directly from the Chief or e-mail. I don’t know. VLS: Okay let me just stop you there. So it is your belief that the text message from the Chief dated Sunday, August 9 at 6:06 p.m. that that same message or a very similar message was sent around the same time by the Chief or forwarded – LT. NADELMAN: Through either directly or through the intermediary of Chief DiMaria for the Chief to Jerry and Chris because I wasn’t in town. But I do recall getting, I think I - 106 - even spoke to Chief DiMaria and called him about this because he might have sent me something on this or not, I don’t recall. But I did get a call from both Chris and Jerry both about this message. And they were telling me about a message that they got from, again, I think from the Chief, but I’m not 100% positive how it came out. And after realizing, basically, he took what he sent me and forwarded it to them somehow or another as they are reading it to me. Something is going on. I said, “Listen, this is the same BS the Chief is always throwing our way. He wants us to do something for him. I’m not going to worry about it until I get back in town.” It was like a couple days later I got back in town. I think I got back in town maybe the 14th. Something like that. So I wasn’t really worried about it at that time. VLS: Your concern, their concern and your concern being that – LT. NADELMAN: Their concern was the Chief saying, “hey, something is going on with the airport. Rideout and the Mayor they want to terminate people”. VLS: Okay. So it’s the issue of termination of personnel at the airport? LT. NADELMAN: Correct. So, the next goes to this whole September 10th chain that starts off with, “I told you about the Sam Saad phone interview”. VLS: Okay before we get to that. The message at the bottom of page 2 of the packet that we marked #9, is that – LT. NADELMAN: I think I just took a picture but let me look at it and so you have a complete, I don’t want you to feel that I gave you something incomplete. So let’s just uh – so – you are referring, again, I might be missing a page. That might be the case. So just to follow up with the back of that, or the front of that. So, this is how it starts, “Don’t believe” – so this was, I probably had another page to this that didn’t print, but, “Marvin Easton are upset that the study indicated more” no we said that, we read that. Okay, so here it August 30th. So, this was just, let’s see what that is. This was a commentary that was in the paper that he sent me that he wanted me to look at. It had nothing to do with that other text message. VLS: Do you know whether there was discussions with the Chief? LT. NADELMAN: Not from me, I didn’t speak to him until, I know I didn’t speak to him while I was out of town. So then, just to explain the gap in between the messages. Because it had nothing to do with this but, so here is a commentary that Marvin Eastman did with the, about the airport, that they should move people into town. I replied that there is okay six cause he has said something in there about eight fire fighters. And I said, “no there was only six.” Where is he getting his eight from? And, the Chief responded, he thinks he is a consultant and is using staffing factors. It was just one day swap back and forth. It was really nothing. I could have left it in there, I guess I don’t know why. It was probably one page that I might be missing but that is what’s missing from there so you can see it right there on the phone. So then, we talked about the September 10. The thing about of text message, I got the day prior to meeting with the Chief on that September 11th meeting. So, here you see “Councilman - 107 - Sam Saad comments this morning on Drew Steele Show Fox” and there is the link. So he sent me this in the afternoon. I didn’t reply right away, obviously, but I eventually clicked on it and listened to it. So then I replied back to him, “Just got a change to listen to that. That’s got to be at least the third time that he’s said you need to be fired in some sort of press” – this was Saad saying in an interview. So, and then this goes on and you can go through the whole thing. This is basically several different, and between me and him, I reply back and forth. But several different places, here through the end of this whole message he is telling me how the Mayor wants to terminate fire firefighters. VLS: At the airport? LT. NADELMAN: At the airport and wants, Sorey is pushing to cut $600,000 in 90 days. It just goes on and on. It was a conversation with us that ultimately led to me setting up the meeting. On the bottom you could say, “If you can meet tomorrow, I’ll get the board together and see if we can come up with a few good ideas.” VLS: But the September 11 meeting – LT. NADELMAN: Was subsequent to this whole – change. VLS: Yes, so that was purposely also set up to discuss the issue of the – LT. NADELMAN: That’s the reason we wanted to do that. Probably, even just to – that was our purpose of doing the meeting. VLS: Our purpose meaning, Union’s purpose was to address the issue of possible terminations at the airport, or was it the issue of promotions, or both? LT. NADELMAN: We wanted, we being the bargaining unit, wanted to meet with the Chief, myself, and Clissold wanted to meet with him about the promotions as a training chief. Looking at the calendar here. Okay, so we have our regularly scheduled meetings the second Tuesday of every month. We had a meeting September 8th, which was our second Tuesday. We discussed at that meeting that, while we were directed by the Union body, ya know what’s going on with these promotions? Said we would schedule a meeting with the Chief. So when I started talking to the Chief about when he sent me this, I said, well we’ll use this as to set up the meeting, the purpose of this meeting for us was to talk about the promotions. But that is why so many other things were said in that meeting. That meeting goes back. It wound up being more of a labor management meeting than a – because we talked about the – that meeting is referenced a lot. So, this chain basically talks about, I don’t know if you want to read the whole thing for the record, or just enter into the record because it’s quite lengthy. But, there is several places in here how the Mayor wants to get rid of six fire fighters to cut money. VLS: Tell me what is significant about that. We will have it in the record. I don’t think we need to read it in, but tell me from your standpoint and the October 21, 2015 letter what the impact or significance of the text is. - 108 - LT. NADELMAN: This goes back to, what the Chief, and this is why I kind of every time he asks me to do something, I kind of think about is this something we really should be doing? And wind up not doing it. He wants, he is big into media, he does a lot of media things. Now, I don’t want to lose five, I don’t want to lose one fire fighter position. Forget about five or six. He’s brought this type of subject up so many, well are you guys going to do this, you are going to do something for – he actually made a comment that got back to me to Chief DiMaria about, well the Union doesn’t care about their positions. Chief DiMaria mentioned that to me that the Chief had said that. Because he wants us to get the press to show up to these meetings to support his agenda, which is nothing wrong with not wanting to terminate people but Council was very clear at, the reason I say that is, well let me read the points. VLS: Very good. LT. NADELMAN: “September 15 the Chief indicated to the union on several occasions that the city is trying to terminate fire positions in an effort to get the union to create a public outcry.” Should really say August to September because this goes back “The Chief convinced the union that Mayor Sorey wanted to to the August 9th. terminate 5 – 6 firefighter positions.” “In response” – this is the last sub-bullet – “In response, I went to council and spoke on behalf of the union to ask that they reconsider terminating firefighter” positions. And then only to find out the “Mayor never intended to terminate”. So I went to the public meeting, and I spoke a public comment about, “please don’t terminate positions, please don’t look into terminating positions”. After that meeting I spoke with several Councilmembers about that. All of them said that they were never intending on laying off any positions. Now I didn’t speak directly with the Mayor, but the Mayor had stated at the meeting that he was not up for terminating positions. VLS: And that public meeting, the public comment at a Council meeting, do you recall what Council meeting that was? LT. NADELMAN: It would have been probably the September 16th. Which they talked about the airport and terminating the contract with the airport. Moving the personnel into town. Actually, right now myself and Roger are working on a program for that that Roger came up with. Seems like it’s going to work well. But the purpose of the Chief trying to get me to come to the meeting was not to make, he wanted this publicity to get behind his own agenda which, again, whether any of these text messages from, I don’t even know if he made these up when he sent these to me. Did he really have information? Like I said, at this point, I don’t believe that he has ever told me. VLS: So you don’t know whether he had received information that in fact the Mayor wanted to terminate? LT. NADELMAN: Well, he said he did. He told me he did. VLS: But you don’t know whether or not that is in fact the case. - 109 - LT. NADELMAN: Correct. I actually believe that it wasn’t. He might have had some sort of communications, but to outright say that is what the Mayor wanted to do. I don’t believe that for a second. Just one other thing that he wants the Union to go, and make a big publicity thing to support – VLS: Would you have otherwise attended that meeting and public comment? LT. NADELMAN: No. VLS: Did you stay for the rest of the meeting? LT. NADELMAN: No, but I watched the rest of it on TV. VLS: You did? LT. NADELMAN: I did. And that is where they were, they had no intentions of terminating any positions. At that specific meeting, I had spoken to, prior to the meeting starting I saw a lot of the council members and talked to a lot of them that morning before the meeting actually started. For the first time, met Marvin Easton. He was there. Met some council members I had never spoken to before and they gave me their cards and asked to contact them and talk to them. That really was the last day that I decided to do anything for the Chief or even pay attention to what he has to say. That was a week after the meeting we had. It was also the weekend after I found out he lied about, just completely lied. Literally, where I sat in his office. When I tell you that myself, Clissold and Moore approached him about this, would have been like I said, the 15th which would have been the day before the meeting. I just told him exactly that we knew he lied about, and he still insisted on lying VLS: You’re talking about the promotion issue and the hiring of – LT. NADELMAN: Yeah and the hiring. And so, again, the Union supports the Department goal of hiring more fire fighters. Even though that’s not necessarily the City goal. When you look at the four sentences where it says, “the stations and apparatus” and so, not saying that any of that is not in support of getting new things. It is just how the Chief has gone about it, misleading, outright wanting damage and harm done to accomplish his goal. VLS: Going back, now to point #4, that all these bullet points we just discussed, you have listed, have you at this point, listed all the examples of what you believe was an attempt by the Chief to influence the Union? LT. NADELMAN: I would say, no, there probably are others over the years that either just don’t come to mind or – these are the major ones that happened a public issue with council that – really – asking the Union to hire an attorney to make public records request on the actual Mayor and the Council. Like I said, these are just, these are probably the worst of what he’s asked us to do over the years. - 110 - VLS: But as far as the other part of that sentence, has the Chief caused the Union to undermine some City objectives? LT. NADELMAN: to influence us. No, that’s why I put the word “attempt” in there. He has attempted VLS: Or otherwise cause. LT. NADELMAN: And so he has attempted to do it. If I had just listened to him and done any of these things, yeah it probably would have definitely caused some problems. Now, without a doubt, I don’t know the specifics of the Bob Bates with the North Naples wound up doing, what I understand, the City spent a lot of money on that individual specific case. You’ll probably have more information from the City on that than I could get to. That might be something you can get from the City Manager’s office. I’m sure he was involved with having to facility some of that stuff or maybe even print. He had to deal directly with this. VLS: I want to understand how this relates to point #4 how you talk about undermining some City objectives. How do you determine what is an objective of City? Is that your interpretation of what the City Council has set as an objective? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. When the City Council directs the City Manager to work on auto aid for the City, that is what I would consider an objective. I don’t know if I use the word objective, because I don’t know if it’s a role, but it is something they wanted to look into and it directed the City whether through the City Manager or they had a committee set up to go about all these things. The City wanted this data driven decision seminar to happen and they wanted it at the City and that wound up not happening. It was their objective, they directed, they approved whatever it was, thousands of dollars, it wasn’t a huge number. So that was something they wanted to do that they Chief wanted us to undermine and go, and again, I told you from the beginning I wasn’t a fan of them making data driven decisions. I watched the thing, and didn’t agree with it. But it isn’t my decision to decide if the City shouldn’t look at that or not. VLS: The reason I ask this is because I’ve only looked at one or two City Council videos just to kind of get a flavor of things. And I would have a hard time discerning and looking at a single video of a meeting what is the City Council’s objective because the City Council is very diverse and has very differing opinions. LT. NADELMAN: Absolutely. VLS: So when you refer to a City Council objective, are you referring to something that either came to a vote or is a consensus item in the minutes? LT. NADELMAN: Yes, sure, absolutely. VLS: As a opposed to what you interpret to be a City Council objective based on what you heard or how you interpret? - 111 - LT. NADELMAN: Correct. So if Council was to make a vote of even 4 – 3 that we want to look into auto aid. And so it passes 4 – 3. VLS: Then that’s an objective? LT. NADELMAN: Then that’s what I would consider a City objective. Not that Sam Saad or Doug Finlay or the Mayor said that’s what I would like to see happen. That’s not what I am considering. VLS: So you’ve determined an objective based on, for instance, what the minutes reflect was a vote or a consensus on. LT. NADELMAN: Sure. They voted to, not unanimously, but definitely majority vote to spend money to get this company to come in and do this meeting. They did a majority vote to terminate the contract with the airport. They did a majority vote to look at auto aid. They did, ya know – that’s what I’m using as objectives. VLS: Those are the objectives that you are referring to. LT. NADELMAN: Yes. Everything here that I am referencing as an objective, might not be what the City ultimately decides to do, but it is something that either they are looking into or have voted on and was an item or in communications or correspondence when I was. VLS: And it therefore becomes the City objective because a majority, although it’s not shared by all the council members. LT. NADELMAN: It might not be, but everything comes down to a vote and if three of them might disagree, but if four of them say this is what they want to do, then it passes and that’s that. VLS: Just wanted to be clear on that. Because it might be hard in just listening to you in what defining what an objective is other than how something ultimately comes to a vote. LT. NADELMAN: And so the auto aids were back then, they are actually moving forward with auto aid right now, but back in that original basis of the auto aid in getting the North Naples to cover say Moorings Park specifically, I don’t think there was a vote, it was a consensus, let’s put a committee together to look into this. So there was some sort of action that would tell me that was their objective. VLS: When you are talking about point #4, you are not suggesting in any of these bullet points that the Union had a different view of the ultimate goal but you are looking more at the Chief placing the Union in an attempt to influence the City objective, putting you, attempting to put you into that role? LT. NADELMAN: Yes and no. I don’t disagree with necessarily what I would like to see the Chief accomplish, and that’s not with everything. But within regards to staffing, - 112 - and having the things that we need, in this particular point for these items, but it’s my own opinion to say that no one should look at this and make their own decision just because I don’t agree with them. The purpose for us, yes, I would like to have kept the airport the way it was. It has changed, nothing I can do about that. But to do go behind the Mayor and Council and Moss’ directives, and I shouldn’t say Moss’ directives because I don’t know what his is, he gets directed by Council on certain things. To try and undermine it so I could get the outcome to come my way, and listen because you don’t do that you might not get outcome. We lost the 24 hour shifts at the airport. If I had done this for the Chief, we probably still be in the same place except now, the City would be very upset with the Union. So, I’ve been with the City for over 20 years, Council has always done the same thing. All’s it would have done cause bad publicity and specifically to the Union and a bad working relationship with the Mayor and Council and ultimately makes their decisions for everything when it comes to the employees. Yeah, I would have liked to have kept the airport but I’m not going to do these things to undermine what the City wants to do. They are going to do what they want to do. Now, I have no problem calling council members and expressing how I feel about it, and I don’t think we should do this or I don’t think we should do that. But, to go behind their backs and try to circumvent what they are trying to do. VLS: Item #4, all of the bullet points, were those all bullet points all considered by the Union in coming to the conclusion to send this October 21 letter? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: The letter ends with - have we considered everything you that wanted me to an this point on item #4? LT. NADELMAN: Yes. VLS: The letter ends with “For these, and many other matters of deep concern to the membership, the City’s firefighters respectfully request that the City take action consistent with the unanimous vote of no confidence in Chief McInerny’s continuing to hold the position of Fire Chief.” Are there are matters of deep concern that are not expressed in those four bullet points that you want to bring to my attention, understanding that I have been tasked with doing an inquiry as to what’s behind the letter. LT. NADELMAN: The other matters of deep concern are really the specifics that go with each point that I have laid out for you which made the four sentences, five pages. So we basically didn’t want to, not that I had all this written up. I had a lot of the thoughts and ideas but didn’t want to put something like this and send it out. VLS: When, and I may have asked you this, but when did you create document #3, the back up? You said it was after the letter, or before the letter? LT. NADELMAN: After. So what I did was I had just raw notes that I had written down on paper. Thoughts and things that we spoke about, at meeting or that I spoke with other fire department personal. With all that, we came up to the four sentences - 113 - that were in the original letter and then I took the four sentences and basically took everything I had and placed it where they fit. VLS: Where they belonged. So this may be a very stupid question, but when you say in the last sentence that “the City’s firefighters respectfully request that the City take action consistent with the unanimous vote of no confidence” what are you really asking Council to do? Are you asking the City Manager to do something? LT. NADELMAN: Well this is to Moss. The letter was written to. Yeah, exactly what it says, that the City take action consistent with the unanimous vote of no confidence in Chief McInerny’s continuing to hold the position of Fire Chief. Meaning no longer having him hold the position of fire chief. VLS: So Moss as being City Manager, in that position, take steps to terminate the contract, the Chief’s contract? Or is that not what you are telling him how? LT. NADELMAN: I am not telling him what to do, that’s his job as to what to do, but honestly that is what I was hoping was going to happen, was that he was going to have some sort of inquiry. I believe those sentences were vague enough where he wasn’t sure and so I would be sitting down, or someone would be sitting down going over some specifics in each of those, which we did. I would not expect Mr. Moss to go, “oh well, ya know what, we’re going to fire him because this is what the Union said.” Just like, I would hope if the Chief made allegations against the Union, I think Moss would, I expected him to do something, but not to just terminate him. VLS: To take action on the – LT. NADELMAN: And I would expect the same on the reverse side. If the Chief said the Union was doing these horrible things, would he fire the Union president? I would expect him to look into the allegations and decide – really the process is exactly how it is going – inquiry, determine if an investigation is needed, and I don’t expect you to take my word for any of this other than I have handed to you in writing, I think you are going to get a lot of – the battalion chiefs have been involved in this either directly or in between as a lot of most of the members don’t deal directly with the Chief or rarely see the Chief. Other than some of the officers, and the acting battalion chiefs. So they just hear just what rolls down out of their chain of command or whoever. VLS: So you expect that the primary witnesses, the people that you think should be interviewed, would include the three battalion chiefs, the three individuals that signed – LT. NADELMAN: Actually, I wish Vogel, after reading his letter, I would, but ya know, obviously I don’t think he even, from what I understand, even lives in Florida anymore. He had a lot of contact with Chief in 2009 – 2012 as well. Yeah, the battalion chiefs are going to have more direct dealing with the Chief than we do. Obviously a lot came out of the September 11th meeting and so we’ll assume you’ll at least ask Chris and maybe Mike on that. They were all in there as well. - 114 - VLS: Yes. Is there anyone outside the department that you believe has information relevant to the allegations? LT. NADELMAN: The only person that I could think of, and again, would be Chief Vogel, after seeing this letter. I don’t know of anyone else that would or wouldn’t, there might be someone but no one that I am aware of. VLS: Did the Union take a formal position on any specific matters raised in the PSSI report? What there a response by the Union to the report? LT. NADELMAN: No. I know you keep referencing the report. I’m just curious, it seems some of this is being tied to the report. Because you keep referencing it. VLS: It’s, and I’m not sure where I’m headed with it, but just as I’m initially presented with documents, you’ve got a consultant who Council ultimate votes to retain, that they apparently paid a lot of money to do a report. And I’d have to go back to the scope of services, but some of the issues that they were commenting on are, at least in some manner, facilities, apparatus’ – and that’s why, I’m wondering if – LT. NADELMAN: I can tell, sorry to cut you off, the report had nothing to do with us doing this. That’s why I, you inquired several times about the report, but I have an understanding of what you are saying, I just, at least for our part, the report had nothing to do with any of this. VLS: Okay. And there is no, from your standpoint, personally, you did not question the overall integrity of the report? Or do you have issues with the report itself? Who did it? How thorough it was. LT. NADELMAN: I don’t think, and strictly my opinion, I don’t think the report was done intentionally to be inaccurate, or anything like that. I don’t think the staff at PSSI. Now again, I don’t know what they were given and not given. VLS: Right. LT. NADELMAN: So I can’t speak to that, I can only speak to that they came to the fire stations and they sat down at our round table. I think I had one where the Chief sat there and talked about several different things and actually after he left, I had a meeting with Brian and corrected several things that I heard the Chief say that were incorrect. One of those were the promotional process. I don’t remember specifically what it was, and I didn’t want to correct the Chief in front of the gentleman doing the report, so when he left, I just told Brian, listen I can just tell you that’s not true, that’s not true. There was a couple things. I don’t remember specifically. VLS: But you did have an opportunity to tell him one on one without the Chief present. LT. NADELMAN: Absolutely. And I did speak to him about some problems that we had within the Department. - 115 - VLS: Would you disagree with that there was a statement in the report or a segment on the report on labor management relations? Do you take issue with way PSSI characterized that? LT. NADELMAN: I’d have to read it again, to specifically comment on it. I do know it mentioned, and I think, that e-mail from Moss, it would be this one to Council. Observations laborer agreements. I think this was quoted right from that as “firefighters, drivers engineers, lieutenants are represented by the Professional Firefighters of Naples International Association of Firefighters, Local 2174. The current contract between the City and Local 2174 is through the period of April 21, 2014 – April 20, 2017.” So that whole first, 1, 2, 3, 4 lines is a fact. Ya know, I can’t. Okay so, “The studying team observed an excellent relation between labor and management during meeting and interviews within the City of Naples.” So, observed, what they observed, I don’t know. Did they observe the Chief sitting there speaking in front of everybody and everybody was nice to the Chief? Yeah, ya know, we’re on duty, we’re sitting a round table with the Chief and I don’t think anybody is going to be disrespectful or anything like that. Even myself, the Chief knows these allegations and representations about everything we’ve had. If I see him today, I am going to say, “Good morning sir” because he is my Chief. That’s just eh way it is. I’m not going to cause any controversy or any kind of thing, being respectful to him. He knows how I feel and that’s it. I don’t have to like him. He doesn’t have to like me. We just have to work together. So, yeah, I don’t know what they mean by “study concludes an excellent relationship”. VLS: You didn’t feel that there was an excellent relationship between the Chief and – LT. NADELMAN: Oh there wasn’t an excellent relationship. We had a working relationship. And that was it. And again, I’ve tried to lay out a history of the problems. And at times we worked better together than others, but yeah, I would say excellent relationship is not a great term I would use. To say that is what the study team observed, I don’t know what they determine that to be in a relationship. But I did voice my concerns to Brian Cummings about some things that the Chief, as well as concerns with how the City handled things. It wasn’t just all on the Chief. But I also told them good points and other things as well. I tried to be as fair and honest as I could. VLS: If there isn’t anything else, I think I’m ready to conclude the interview with the understanding that while the inquiry is still pending, if there is further information in terms of documents or additional information you want to provide to me, that I welcome that. LT. NADELMAN: I think I had a list of a few things that I wanted to try and get you that you had asked for. VLS: Yes, we can go over those. LT. NADELMAN: I gave you the radio sheet. I am going to try and find some council meetings. It is going to take a little bit of work to find some where the Chief talks about the reports. - 116 - VLS: If you just want to reference the meeting themselves, that is public, I mean you would be suggesting to me that the meeting on the date of September 1 is – LT. NADELMAN: Well that will be the hardest thing to find. VLS: Because the link itself I’m assuming I can easily get the agenda, the minutes, and if it’s important, I can look at the actual meeting. LT. NADELMAN: Absolutely. Right. So the copy of the BC Commercial Process that the Chief gave the PSSI. I have that e-mail with the addendum, I’ll just forward you the whole thing. VLS: Excellent. LT. NADELMAN: I’ll peruse through it to find the point where he says about the promotional process as well. That was definitely one of the things that I told Brian Cummings when the Chief said we had one, that there was none. Where are we at here. VLS: Vicki.sproat@henlaw.com I thank you very much for coming in. Are there any other documents you brought that we haven’t shared yet. LT. NADELMAN: I kinda exchanged everything. VLS: Okay. I really appreciate it. LT. NADELMAN: Do you have any questions for me? VLS: (laughter) Not that I haven’t asked. That doesn’t mean that when you leave I won’t. And I’m not promising you that I will not be scheduling a supplemental interview because you are the start. I would ask that for the integrity of the inquiry, I can’t or will not instruct you not to say a word about anything to anybody but if it promotes the integrity of the process, if you let me interview people without sharing the details of our discussion. LT. NADELMAN: I will. VLS: Do you have any questions about that? LT. NADELMAN: No. No. VLS: And I’m not telling you – LT. NADELMAN: Because I can tell you that people are going to ask me, especially since we have been in here as long as we have. VLS: Yes. - 117 - LT. NADELMAN: I will probably just to keep out of tainting any other possibly interviewees, I’ll just let them know that it was a very non-controversial, no pressure, very open, very - I’ll try to keep, I will keep any specifics out, VLS: I think that that promotes integrity but I saying, suggesting that a sock be placed in your mouth. LT. NADELMAN: I understand. VLS: So, okay. It has been a pleasure. And with that we are going to turn off the tape. I’ve got a total of six hours thirty minutes fifteen seconds and we are ending this about 8 minutes before the 6:00 p.m. hour on today. And thank you. - 118 - RECORDED INTERVIEW OF MICHAEL MOORE ON 11/20/15 VLS: Today is November 20. My name is Vicki Sproat. I’m with the law firm of Henderson Franklin in Fort Myers. I have been retained by the City of Naples to conduct an investigation inquiry into allegations that were made about Chief McInerny in an October 21, 2015 letter from Local 2174. With me today is Lt. Robert Moore. LT. MOORE: Mike. VLS: Mike, Mike. LT. MOORE: We have a Robert Moore. He’s a firefighter that works with us. VLS: But you are a lieutenant? LT. MOORE: Yes. VLS: Thank you. We’ll start, at least with the right name. Lt. Moore, do you realize I’m going to be recording this interview? LT. MOORE: I do. VLS: And before we get started, I just want to make a couple of statements on the record. City policy requires employees to be forthright, truthful and cooperative in providing information in connection with an inquiry or an investigation. Do you understand that? LT. MOORE: I do. VLS: And City policy also provides that retaliation against and employee for participating in an inquiry or investigation is prohibited. Do you understand that? LT. MOORE: I do. VLS: And do you also understand if you feel that you have been retaliated against because you are participating in this interview today, that that should be reported to Human Resources? LT. MOORE: I do. VLS: And with that in mind, I’m going to give you my business card and would encourage you if there’s something you forget about that you want to tell me today, something that happens after our interview, you can, or documents that you want to provide to me, those can be sent to my e-mail address. If there is something you want to talk to me about, we’ll probably schedule just a phone interview and record that just to be consistent with the protocol we’ve established. LT. MOORE: Okay. -1- VLS: Okay? LT. MOORE: Yep. VLS: And with that in mind, please state your full name? LT. MOORE: Michael Outin(sp?) Moore. VLS: And what’s your position with Naples Fire Department? LT. MOORE: I’m a lieutenant on Engine 1. VLS: And what Battalion are you assigned to? LT. MOORE: A shift. VLS: And so your – you report to what Battalion Chief? LT. MOORE: Battalion Chief Tim Bruener. VLS: How long have you worked for the Naples Fire Department? LT. MOORE: I just went over 11 years. VLS: And how – what position did you start in? LT. MOORE: Firefighter. VLS: And tell me about what your progression has been to a lieutenant? LT. MOORE: I started out with a firefighter, City of Naples. Held that position for the first 18 months, then where I became tested and came in acting, as a firefighter still, but I was an Acting Driver Engineer. So for the next 4ish years, I was a firefighter Acting DE. Then I started testing for lieutenant. I believe like right around – right before 7 years, I was on the list. I didn’t get promoted the first time because we didn’t have promotion. Took it again. Got promoted the second time and that was – I think I just went over 4 years now as a lieutenant. VLS: So you were – who made the promotion to lieutenant? Who was the Acting Chief at the time? LT. MOORE: It was Chief McInerny. VLS: Have you always worked A shift? LT. MOORE: No. VLS: How long have you been A shift? -2- LT. MOORE: I’ve been on A shift for a while. I got moved from B shift to A shift like 7ish years ago. I’m not exactly sure. I’ve been on A shift for quite a while. Because I was a firefighter for a couple years and I got promoted and I stayed on A shift, so I can’t tell you the exact date. But I’ve probably been on A shift for like 7 years out of my 11, or something like that. VLS: And have you been assigned to Station 1 for most of that time as well? LT. MOORE: No. I was originally when I came to A shift, I was down at Station 2 and I got moved to Station 1 when I got on the dive team, I believe is when they moved me. So, and also because I do like boat operations for us, so they brought me down here at that time so that I could help out with those when those, you know, things are needed. And I’ve been down here since then, but I can’t tell you exactly how long. You know, the date that I got transferred down, but I had been at 1 for a while, but it was prior to making lieutenant. VLS: I’ve handed you a copy of a letter dated October 21, 2015 which is really the subject matter of what I’m going to be inquiring about. Did you sign that letter? LT. MOORE: Yes. VLS: Did you sign it in your capacity as secretary for Local 2174? LT. MOORE: Yes. That’s correct. VLS: So I assume you’ve read it and are familiar with it? LT. MOORE: I have. VLS: Does this also express your personal views as an employee of the Naples Fire Department? LT. MOORE: This whole letter? VLS: Yes. LT. MOORE: My personal views – VLS: I tell you what. We’ll break it down and we’ll go through everything. LT. MOORE: Okay. VLS: That question really isn’t fair. LT. MOORE: Yeah, I wouldn’t say, you know, I’d have to go through it because I do have certain views obviously and I’m probably going to differ among Battalion Chiefs, other lieutenants and firefighters. -3- VLS: Absolutely. Well that’s what we’re going to do today. We’re going to go through this letter and I’m not going to be questioning you on any Union meetings or votes or anything like that. LT. MOORE: Okay. VLS: If you feel that I’m somehow gearing into something that is really Union related, that you would let me know that. That’s not my intent. LT. MOORE: Okay. VLS: Let’s focus our attention on the third paragraph in the October 21, 2015 letter. It states: “It is the membership’s position that Chief McInerny has created a poor working environment, and has shown a lack of leadership and an inability to make sound decisions on matters affecting the community.” Is that your opinion? LT. MOORE: I think you know there’s certain things that I personally, you know, I don’t necessary agree with but, you know, there are certain things of that I could say yeah to and then – VLS: That’s a hard thing to agree to wholesale? LT. MOORE: Exactly. VLS: Well then we’re going to get into – there’s – by the way, did you participate in the actual drafting of this letter? LT. MOORE: No. I found out about it at the meeting. VLS: Do you know if it was – was it Lt. Nadelman, do you know, that drafted the letter? LT. MOORE: I have no idea who personally drafted it. VLS: Alright. Okay. Let’s go to – there are 4 enumerated points in the October 21, 2015 letter. And, I would like to now break it down and go to the first point. LT. MOORE: Okay. VLS: The first point says: “The Chief has misled the community and City staff. In particular, he has created the misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities.” Do you know of any instances where the Chief has created a misimpression of need with regard to apparatus or facilities? LT. MOORE: When it comes to that statement, my only true thing would be maybe the new rescue truck, you know, because we don’t have a whole lot of staffing for it. I believe that a fire truck should have 3 personnel on it. I think it’s a safety thing and I support that. You know, taking on this rescue truck, and I don’t if the decision – where that decision is so I might be speaking about something I don’t know, but you know I -4- know there’s ideas of making guys go between 2 trucks and stuff and I don’t support that. So I think, you know, personally when it comes to apparatus stuff, that’s one that I don’t agree with. VLS: And are we talking about the QRV, I think it’s referred to? LT. MOORE: Yes. The new – yeah, the QRV Station 1. We don’t have, what I know, the City is not planning on adding enough staff to staff it. They want to cross staff it. And I personally don’t agree with that decision. VLS: Is the QRV now parked at Station 1? LT. MOORE: No. VLS: Do you know where it is? LT. MOORE: I haven’t personally seen it, but I think I heard it’s over at the admin building. But, like I said, I haven’t seen it or nothing. VLS: Do you know how it came to be that the City determined to purchase the new QRV? LT. MOORE: I try to keep upon the meetings and I believe that there was a push from City Council to put these in play and I think there was mention that the reason some departments run QRVs are up and over staffing and that this was purchases like, okay, if you want to shut down an engine and maybe that – there should have been some better explaining what we’re actually doing before just agreeing to have City Council make operational decisions. VLS: What do you mean by up and over staffing? LT. MOORE: I think, like I said again, these are from [illegible] and I think that like, if you took a North Naples fire station where they run a lot of medical calls, say they have nursing homes or medical facilities, where you’re running more than your normal share and they had an engine there. They would never take an engine out of service and put rescue truck. What they would do is they would add the rescue truck so you would still have that fire – protection of the fire truck, the personnel, vehicle accidents, elevator rescues, that traditional fire response and then they would add a small QRV with just medical response because you are still leaving that engine in place. Where we’re kind of going a different way. We’re trying to take an engine out of service and make the QRV good enough to replace an engine and, I think, you know, in that whole respect and I don’t see it working well. I think it’s good to add it, if you’re going to add the staffing. VLS: Do you know what role, if any, the Chief played in terms of getting City Council to vote on the QRV? LT. MOORE: I wouldn’t know. -5- VLS: So, you know don’t whether the Chief in any way mislead Council or staff with respect to the QRV?\ LT. MOORE: Um, you know, I don’t think so. Nothing I would personally know. You know, I think, you know, it was being pushed and if he said we could do it or we couldn’t do it or how it would work, I wouldn’t know. VLS: Alright. So in terms of your own personal knowledge, you’re not aware of – And, I’m not asking you whether you think there’s need or not for apparatus or facilities any particular facilities, I’m asking whether you are aware of any way the Chief has mislead the community, staff or Council with regard to apparatus or facilities? LT. MOORE: Besides, kind of what we talked about, I would have to say no. VLS: So, let’s move on to point 2. Point 2 in the October 21, 2015 letter is that: “The department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity.” Let’s break that down and let me ask you, are you aware of any misrepresentations or exaggerations that the Chief has made with respect to fire calls? LT. MOORE: I believe, and like I said, I’m just talking – from what I think this is talking about is, you know, there’s the whole debate between some Council members and the Chief of how a call should be coded and, you know, my personal feelings, I don’t know how – I think there is a state law on that and that should just be looked at and dictated and if the Chief is – how the Chief wants us to, you know, label calls, if that’s what the State, then that’s the correct or if he’s wrong, then we need to change it. But, you know, when it comes to that, I think that’s a lot of where that statement is coming from and I think that it’s silly that we can’t just find out what the answer is. VLS: Okay. Fair enough. Have the means – have there been a change in instructions as to how you are to code calls since the Chief? LT. MOORE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. VLS: Tell me about the change. LT. MOORE: Okay. Maybe before it – if we had smell of smoke or something, we get there and we find there had been some sort of an electrical issue or something, a fire call in the past, you know, you have to understand that doing a fire report is a lot more difficult than doing a simple report. So, if there wasn’t a significant fire, a report was done a certain way and we were told that, you know, that’s incorrect and that you guys need to change it, even if it’s a [illegible] a smoldering outlet here, that technically that falls under a fire call per the State, so we are instructed that those need to be changed to meet the State statutes. So, as before, I might have took an easier route, I’ve been told that I can’t do that. VLS: And did that change? Who instructed you that there would be a change in how you code? -6- LT. MOORE: Well, I guess that would kind of come down the pipeline. I mean, Chief McInerny never personally called me and said, Mike you’re doing this wrong. It came from our Battalion Chiefs that you know, hey, we’re coding these differently and whoever gave them their orders – VLS: So you got the order from the Battalion Chief? LT. MOORE: Yeah, yeah. I don’t have a whole lot of contact with Chief McInerny. VLS: And have you ever – have you been instructed by chain of command to change any particular report that you had prepared? LT. MOORE: Off the top of my head, it would tough to say exactly, but I’m sure that, especially like when we were first initiating this, that I would be like, you know, I would do it my old way and I was told to change it. If I could – if you ask me to give you an actual IR number, I probably couldn’t, because we have to go back, you know, quite a while, but I’m sure that I have been told that I need to correct my reports. VLS: How often do you actually do the report, that you prepare it? LT. MOORE: It depends on our manning. If we only have, I’m on Engine 1, so if it’s 2 or 3, if we have just 2 guys and we’re running during season, we’re a pretty busy engine, I’ll jump in there and do more rescue calls and things like that so the other guy doesn’t have to do them all. If I have a 3 guy company, I tend not to do them as much and I’ll just take the significant calls or one that I’ll do a report on a call if I feel like there’s a possible lawsuit involved or something like that you know. I’ll kind of pick and choose which ones the lieutenant or the office should do. Your run of the mill calls, fire alarms, not serious medical calls, things like that, I’ll let the guys do. So I try to do the important, you know, something where we might, you know, it might be an issue. VLS: And when you do a call, you input the information directly into the software system? LT. MOORE: Yeah. VLS: And then do you happen to know what happens to the report after you complete it, if you are the one that is initially coding it? LT. MOORE: What I’ll do is I will code my call and then I’ll lock that report. Now we have, after it’s locked, we have members of the fire department, you know, not a Battalion Chief because you know, they’re busy enough, but we have guys who are trained I guess you could say to check those reports and if I have an issue with my report, like say I did something incorrect, I’ll get an e-mail from whoever checked it and if it’s a medical, one guy checks it, if it is a fire related call, another guy checks it. And if I messed up on either of those, they’ll send me an e-mail saying, hey, this was done incorrectly, you need to change it, and it will be unlocked and I’ll make the recommended changes and then I’ll relock it. -7- VLS: Do you know who it is that checks the reports on fire calls? LT. MOORE: It’s Steve Kofsky. Steve Kofsky checks, I wouldn’t say fire calls, he checks all, I believe it’s called Field Bridge (sp?). I get the names confused. But Field Bridge is like our fire page where a Field Bridge call might be a minor vehicle accident without – anything that doesn’t have medical is a Field Bridge call and Steve Kofsky checks those. It be a fire vehicle, boating call, you know, elevator rescues. Anything that’s not medical. And then if it’s a medical, a different guy checks it. VLS: So as to that point that the Chief is misrepresenting or exaggerating fire calls, you are not aware of any direct misrepresentations or exaggerations, you’re saying that somebody needs to get to the bottom of how things should be coded. And if – well, I’m putting things in your mouth. I don’t want to do that. You’re not – LT. MOORE: I understand where this statement is coming from. VLS: Yes, you understand where it’s coming from. LT. MOORE: And, you know, I personally don’t know enough about the law to know if he’s right or if – VLS: Or whether it’s a misrepresentation or exaggeration? LT. MOORE: Yes. I think that he wants it coded a certain way, which he says it’s supposed to be and if the law doesn’t say that, then maybe it is misrepresented. But, if it does say that, then maybe it isn’t. And, I don’t know. I never personally looked it up. I’m just going to do as I’m instructed. VLS: Are you aware of any misrepresentations and exaggerations by the Chief with regard to damage? LT. MOORE: Um, not personally, no. I can tell you I’ve done fire related calls and if I don’t know, I leave it blank because under my, you know, either the Fire Marshall or the Battalion Chiefs or Chief McInerny, whoever decides that, will fill that in for me because I usually, unless it’s something real minor, where I’m like, ah, it’s a thousand bucks, but like on a significant fire and stuff, I think we just usually leave it blank. I wouldn’t know enough about building to tell you if the numbers are high or low. VLS: Are you aware of any misrepresentations or exaggerations on the part of the Chief with regard to the intensity of fires? LT. MOORE: Again, it’s kind of – it’s a tough one. You know, I think that people think he hams it up a little bit and you know, there could possibly be some of that, but you know, you know, I get frustrated personally because I see Council doing the exact opposite. You know, hamming him down for their side. So, does he do it? He possibly could, you know, ham some of [illegible]. I mean there’s some you can’t dispute. They’re major fires and they’re ones that maybe aren’t as major where he’s saying hey, we needed more resources and this kind of stuff and this could have been a lot worse. -8- And then, you know, you have City Council telling them, hey no. This was a lot less. You didn’t even need what you had. And, you know, it’s – VLS: How is intensity rated by the department? LT. MOORE: That’s a good question. I wouldn’t say there is a department stance on it. I think that’s an individual stance. I don’t know who how a Battalion Chief – I can tell you that a fire that’s blown through the roof, let’s say, I mean, it sounds intense, but that doesn’t necessary mean it. I’ve had very small fires in metal attics and roofs where guys – I mean we were getting our butt kicked trying to, you know, pry open a metal roof to get to a small fire so it doesn’t become a large fire. So intensity could be what it takes just to access that. So I think it’s, that’s really a – we don’t have a set of definitions of you know, what things mean personally. A large looking fire or something that you’ll see on the evening news doesn’t necessary represent intensity to me. I think if I have to sit outdoors doing physical labor to access something, that’s a pretty intense situation. Same thing with like a car accident or something like that. I think it’s, you know, it’s the physical work you’re doing, not necessarily what it looks like it or you know what I mean. Because a large fire might not be as intense because I might just put up a ladder truck and flow water on it because it’s a total loss and we’re really just not doing as much on that fire. VLS: That’s good. That’s a good explanation. I appreciate that. Has there been any change in how you communicate with dispatch on commands like “fire out?” Or something – do you get involved in giving commands to or reports to dispatch? LT. MOORE: Oh, sure. Well, yeah. And on a fire call, I won’t be talking to dispatch. I’ll be talking to my Battalion Chief. Like on a minor call, where it’s just a single incident, I’ll talk to Naples and I’ll just give my updates. I think, sure, a fire call or even any sort of call that’s unique in nature, you know, you’re going to have a Battalion Chief there and then my reporting will go to him. And for my reporting going to a Battalion Chief, I just give it like I see it. Or try to anyway. VLS: Let’s go to the third point which is that “the Chief’s misrepresentations, exaggerations and mendacity . . . (which I believe has been explained to me means outright lies) LT. MOORE: Okay. VLS: “have created a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire-rescue personnel.” Do you believe there is a lack of trust between the Chief and the City firerescue personnel? LT. MOORE: Um, again I’ll just comment on this as my own personal opinion is I don’t want to say who out there has that feeling, but I mean I think there’s – definitely known that – there’s frustrations in some areas for areas for sure. And, you know, I personally think a lot of it could have been avoided if, you know, Chief McInerny would have used – what’s the best way to put it? You know, reach out to the guys a little bit more on, you know, for picking a road to go down. Been like, hey, this is what I’m thinking. You -9- know, bring in Union officers, whatever. I mean, this is what I’m thinking. You think – what do guys – granted he’s the Chief. It’s his. He needs to pick what he believes, but I think that some people don’t see the same vision he does or they don’t know about his vision so there is definitely some people that are like, what’s going on? I keep being told to do this or we’re doing things this way and I don’t see it helping or I don’t see this? They don’t see the whole picture. So I think that, you know, you know if he would have worked maybe with the firefighters more or maybe brought them into the picture more, that, you know, this wouldn’t be going on. VLS: Are you aware of any of the Chief making any misrepresentations, exaggerations or lying? Is that something that you’re personally aware of on any issue? LT. MOORE: No. Not personally. VLS: Alright. And the final point in the letter is that “the Chief has attempted to influence and otherwise cause the Union to undermine some City objectives.” Are you are aware of attempts by the Chief to influence or cause the Union to undermine City objectives? LT. MOORE: This is one of the ones where it’s tough because I’ve heard things. I haven’t been present. I’ve only been secretary for so long and I haven’t even – even when I am, I’m only brought in a handful of times. So, I’ve heard that there’s been statements made to certain people, but that’s just what I’ve heard. VLS: How long have you been secretary? LT. MOORE: Oh man. I’m trying to think of when I did take over. It was probably late last year. Maybe somewhere – I could find out the exact date for you. VLS: That’s okay. LT. MOORE: But, yeah, probably like later months last year when I took it over. VLS: There’s been some issues raised about a recent promotion to the Battalion Chief Training position. Are you aware of who applied internally for that position? LT. MOORE: Yeah. VLS: Who? LT. MOORE: I believe the people that I remember hearing applied was Driver Engineer Kofsky, Lt. Dan Zunzunegui, Lt. Corey Adamski and Lt. Gerry Pecar. I believe those were the four that I heard applied. VLS: Were you present in any meetings with the Chief about the promotional process? LT. MOORE: Yes. - 10 - VLS: And when? More than one meeting? LT. MOORE: I believe I was present for two meetings. VLS: Do you recall when those meetings took place? LT. MOORE: Not exactly. VLS: Do you know what month? LT. MOORE: Uh, when did we talk about? I mean, three months ago maybe. Maybe it was three months. Again, at the time I wasn’t really thinking I was going to be here so I wasn’t’ really, you know, I didn’t prep myself to see exactly when I talked them. VLS: Who else was present in those meetings with the Chief? LT. MOORE: The two that I went to? It was Chief McInerny, myself and then it was Adam Nadelman and Chris Clissold. It was those three. VLS: And what was the reason – what was discussed at the meetings as best you can remember? LT. MOORE: One I believe was – there’s one that we talked about the promotional. I believe that was the second one that we talked about the promotional process. And, the first one, I believe, we talked more about the NAA and the possibility of losing firefighters. VLS: The first meeting you thought was about the promotional process? LT. MOORE: No, I think the first time we went in there we talked about the – mostly about the NAA and the firefighters, if I remember correctly. VLS: And when you’re talking about the NAA, that’s the Naples Airport Authority? LT. MOORE: Yes. VLS: And what specifically was discussed regarding the Naples Airport and the firefighters? LT. MOORE: I think we had a position to meet with them. I mean like, alright, what are we going to do here? There’s a possibility of losing six guys and, you know, what would happen, you know, if that happened or what our options were. And, you know, during that conversation, the training position probably, if I remember, might actually did come up I think because, you know, Adam made a point that if we’re going to lose guys and we [illegible] internally, we could at least save one guy. So, you know, you know, if that’s what we need to do, we need to do. But it was mostly about, you know, what can we do or what is our strategy here to try to protect these guys and make sure that we don’t lay guys off and go backwards in our department. - 11 - VLS: Did you feel that the Chief was receptive to the concerns that were being raised? LT. MOORE: You know, I think so. I mean I don’t think Chief McInerny wants guys to be fired, you know what I mean. So I think he understood our concerns that we don’t want to see guys laid off. Was he willing to do what we asked to try and save a position if only one was to be saved? You know, I don’t know if he necessary was like, I’m going to guarantee you that I’ll promote within just to save one of those positions because you know, he has what he has to do as a Chief. So, you know, I think he’s concerned about them, and he doesn’t want to lose guys I don’t think. VLS: Okay, let’s talk about any meeting where you were present where the promotional process was discussed. LT. MOORE: Okay. VLS: Do you recall what the Chief said with regard to the promotional process? LT. MOORE: Um, we had talked about it. I remember him saying that wasn’t, you know, a final decision being made and you know, everything’s on the table. And that might have been actually, that part of the conversation might have been on the NAA meeting at the end. We kind of like toed into the training position. Like, hey, nothings off the table. I think he might of, you know, if I remember correctly, he made a comment that you know, the one guy that possibly has a chance is Gerry because of the time on. The other lieutenants were, I think he was saying, they were too young, and like Kofsky isn’t a paramedic and you know, there are certain things they had to have. So I believe that was during the first meeting. And then in the second meeting, I can’t remember – I think we might have found out in the second meeting that, you know, he had went ahead and hired the new, the new Chief. VLS: And that’s Pennington? LT. MOORE: Pennington. VLS: Do you know if the Chief made any misrepresentations or lies with respect to the promotional process during those meetings? LT. MOORE: You know I think when it comes to the promotional process, there really isn’t one and that might be, you know, that might be what is really frustrating for people. I know personally, because I work with Lt. Zunzunegui who put in there and, you know, there was, you know, he submitted his paperwork and he got a reply back, I believe just thanking him for his submittal. And then there was never an interview or he never got official word, like you’re out of this process because you don’t have enough time on or because you’re not this or that, you know. So I think that there was, you know, if – I think again, you know, a lot of this could be avoided if there was a very laid out process and that it was very transparent so that I could look at it and right off the bat and say, hey, I don’t qualify for this position, why not waste my time, and then if I do qualify for it, let me know why I’m not getting it. Why are we not going in-house is because of this or this, or you know what I mean? Because I think with the – there’s not a whole lot of - 12 - transparency with that position because it is not a Union position that maybe the Chief doesn’t feel or just doesn’t realize whatever it is that there needs to be as much transparency and then that’s, I think really frustrating to the guys. Especially the guys that put in for that position. It’s like okay, if I’m not getting it now, well how do I prepare for it? I need to know what I need to do and I think that’s, you know, what the big issue here is. There’s nothing where it’s official and it needs to be official because, you know, these guys’ careers. They want to – they spend their own money to go to school, get the education, put the time in and if they’re not getting a fair shake at it, you know, they need to understand, you know, what they need to do to make themselves, you know, eligible for those positions, so. VLS: Have you seen the qualifications or the applications of Battalion Chief Pennington? LT. MOORE: Only what Chief McInerny sent out to us. VLS: Have you worked with him yet? LT. MOORE: I have. VLS: And did you have – was that – anything unusual about your interaction with him in the training process? LT. MOORE: No. No. I’m not going to lie. He’s a very nice guy. My exposure with him is limited. He’s still new. But, I don’t think he’s a bad person. I don’t think he’s not knowledgeable in what he’s been doing it for a long time. You know, I think it’s – I not knocking him at any means. He could be very well qualified. I think, like I said, it’s just – I think it was a process here and guys are getting to the point where they need to know when the next BC spot opens up, is the same thing going to happen. Is it going to be low – you know, there’s not – you know, low chances of promotion because he’s going to say, hey, I’m going to disqualify you because of this, you this and you this and I’m going to get someone else. You know, we want it very transparent. Like, this is what it takes to be in this position so that, you know, we can say, hey – and then also be a, maybe a more formal position where there needs a – if you meet those qualifications, you should at least have an interview or so. So, again – VLS: How much interaction do you have directly with the Chief? LT. MOORE: Not a lot. You know, I think most of the BCs. I have, probably had a little bit more interaction with him than maybe other lieutenants just because I was, I went twice on the apparatus when we specced out the apparatus that bought. You know, I went on those trips as a – to help out with that and to learn the process. It was the Chief and DiMaria and then he took myself and Lt. Vesely with him. VLS: And tell me about that. What – I don’t – tell me about the process? LT. MOORE: Oh okay. The Chief wrote out a spec prop, a spec of what they’re looking for in the bids and this was done before myself and Lt. Vesely are involved. But, - 13 - they write out specs to what they need for their truck. They put it out to bid. There’s a winner. So now, the spec process comes up and we went out. Part of the bidding process is you have to go out there and check out the truck and stuff so we would go out there like when Ladder 1 was done after being built by the [illegible]. We went out there and as the Chiefs kind of went line item by line item through the specs to make sure it’s done. Like myself and Lt. Vesely would be out actually pumping the truck, driving the truck. You know that hadn’t installed radios yet, so we would sit in the front seat and be like okay, if I’m a lieutenant here, this is where I want the radio and I want this here. So they brought us along to help work more on the ergonomics of the truck, you know, and things like that. And also you learn. And when we weren’t doing that we were in the room as they went line item by line item. Hey, we want LED strobes or we want these strobes or you know what I mean? So that when we – you know, down the road if you become a Battalion Chief and you have to do it, you’ve seen the process and it’s not a – you’re not learning then. You know, it’s kind of way to learn. VLS: So what apparatus were you involved in? LT. MOORE: Ladder 1 and Engine 2. VLS: And that would have been at what time? I mean, do you know what year? LT. MOORE: Yeah, Ladder 1 has been in service for at least 3 years now and then Engine 2 is probably only 8 or 9 months after that. So it’s probably like maybe 13, 2013. VLS: Were you involved in the process of determining whether there was a need for those apparatus or simply in once the bid had gone out determining – LT. MOORE: No. Yeah, no. Those trucks, like I said, those were replacing – they’re new trucks but like I said, we had those trucks already in position, I guess I should say. So, it’s just really going from the old truck to the new trucks so determining if they needed to keep them or if they needed to be a different type of apparatus, you know, what have you. I wasn’t part of that. I was mostly I’m just the let’s go pick up a truck and make sure it meets the specs and you guys help out with – you guys are going to be on the truck, tell us what you want. You know, you want [illegible], you want radios [illegible]. VLS: You’re going to be driving it so, let’s get some input. LT. MOORE: Yeah, exactly. VLS: Do you ever serve in the role of Acting Battalion Chief? LT. MOORE: No. VLS: Who on Battalion A serves in the Acting Battalion Chief role? LT. MOORE: Lt. Gerry Pecar. - 14 - VLS: So would your interaction with the Chief be, you’ve described the two times that you’ve been involved in checking out apparatus and you’ve also been involved in at least two meetings as a Union representative. Other than that, what would your interaction with the Chief be? LT. MOORE: It would just be by chance. Say, he showed up on a call or, you know, he was around or bringing people through and I just, you know, stopped. Hey Chief, how you doing? You know, I would talk to him real quick. Hey what’s going on with this or ask him a question. He knows, it’s never like a set up thing. It was like we just happen to be in the same area and we talked for a couple of minutes. VLS: Has the Chief ever, in your presence, said that maybe the fire department shouldn’t put out small fires? LT. MOORE: I’ve heard he’s made comments like that. But, he’s never come to me and said, “Mike, why did you put that fire out?” And I don’t think anybody, on the [illegible], I don’t think any firefighter here is gonna – VLS: Not put a fire out. LT. MOORE: Not put a fire out even if – as frustrated as we get with City Council sometimes, I don’t think we’d ever do something as silly as that. VLS: Understanding that my role in this inquiry is to determine the factual basis for the allegations in the October 21, 2015 letter, is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you believe is pertinent to what I’ve been asked to do? LT. MOORE: No again, I’m sorry it couldn’t be more. VLS: No, that’s fine. LT. MOORE: I’m not necessary – I’m on the Union thing, but I wouldn’t say I’m necessarily [illegible], I’m not in the office over there. I’m not the Union President so I haven’t had as many meetings with the Chief, so – VLS: You have limited – LT. MOORE: I have very limited so a lot of the stuff, you know, even I can sit here and tell you I’ve heard rumors, but I can tell you that about it. Tons of people, you know what I mean? VLS: No, I’m not asking for rumors. [illegible]. I just really wanted personal knowledge and LT. MOORE: Personal knowledge, no – you know. I was not very much with the Chief or being in that Battalion Chief office where maybe a lot of the decisions are being made, so, unfortunately, my knowledge and some of the meetings that have even happened with the Union stuff, I haven’t been a part of so, I couldn’t comment on every - 15 - little thing and tell you exactly what some people in the department might say they have, so that’s up to them to say. VLS: Well that’s it and I thank you very much Lt. Moore. LT. MOORE: Okay. Easy enough. VLS: I’m going to turn it off. We are at about 9:40. - 16 - RECORDED INTERVIEW OF BATTALION CHIEF TIM BRUENER ON 11/20/15 VLS: Today is November 20, 2015. I’m Vicki Sproat from Henderson Franklin law firm. I’m in the conference room at the City of Naples Human Resources Department and I have asked Battalion Chief Bruener to come and be interviewed today. And just so I can explain on the record, I have been retained by the City of Naples to conduct an inquiry or investigation into allegations of misconduct on the part of Chief McInerny that were raised in a letter that Local 2174 sent to the City on October 21, 2015. Do you understand I’m going to record this interview? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: And there’s just a couple of things I want to go over with you. Do you understand that City policy requires employees to be forthright, truthful and cooperative in providing information with respect to an inquiry or investigation? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I do. VLS: And, do you also understand that the City has a policy that prohibits retaliation against an employee for participating in giving information in an inquiry or investigation? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: that this was in my basket. Yes, I do. On that note, I just wanted to point out VLS: Okay. We’ll talk about that in just a minute. BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Okay. VLS: Do you understand that if you feel you’ve been retaliated against for participating in the interview that you should contact the Human Resources Department? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: And you just – I interrupted you. You brought a document with you today. BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: This was a – left in my basket shortly after the letter was sent to the City. I came back from shift and that was in my basket. It really doesn’t apply to me because I’m still under currently employed, not in the DROP program. VLS: And just for the record, we will make this document an exhibit to your interview. You brought a 3-page document that at the top it says City of Naples Police Officer’s Retirement and Pension System Application to Participate in The Deferred Retired Option Plan. And on the document that you gave me, there is some highlighted language on the first page. Was that highlighting present on the document when you received it? -1- BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. Today’s actually the first time I’ve actually removed it from my basket and, but it was left there and sitting on top of my basket when I returned to shift. VLS: Tell me on what day this was left in your basket? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I don’t know. I was on Kelly day Wednesday, the day this letter was sent to the City. I returned to shift on Saturday, the following Saturday, and that was sitting on top of my basket. VLS: Do you know who placed that in the basket? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. VLS: Has – and you’ve indicated that this is not applicable to you to the extent because you are not in the DROP program? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. Right. VLS: Did you feel threatened by it? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It alarmed me. But, seeing this is what’s – something pertaining to upcoming proceedings that are surrounding that letter, so, I just wanted to make sure, you know. VLS: Thank you. I appreciate you bringing to my attention. Did you bring it to the attention of the HR Department? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I did not, but I know one of my fellow Battalion Chiefs did who is actively in the DROP. And I believe all three of us got the same document. VLS: All three Battalion Chiefs at the same time? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: In the Operations Division. 119.071(3)(a) -2- 119.071(3)(a) VLS: Now you mentioned living quarters. In addition to having an office, there’s also living quarters? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Deeper into the office where we have a radio, like separate walkway into, but our living area is back here where our bunk is and stuff after hours where we sleep and occupy, whatever. But, our working area is out here in front. VLS: Is there any way that the camera captures your [illegible]? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. VLS: Is there anything else that you found alarming or has been a concern to you since the letter went to the City on October 21? -3- BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Nothing on my end. VLS: So, as far as who instructed or directed the installation of the camera would – who would you suggest that I contact? Tech Services? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: Has there been any discussion with the Chief about the installation of the camera? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I have not talked to him about it at all. VLS: We’ll get started. Would you just state your full name:? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Naples Fire Department. Timothy S. Bruener, Battalion Chief for the City of VLS: And what shift are you assigned to? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I’m Operation Battalion Chief of A shift. VLS: How long have you been with the Naples Fire Department? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: 24 years, 3 months. VLS: And, tell me about your progression through the City’s Fire Department? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I was hired as a firefighter. I was promoted to Charge EMT. Shortly after, promoted to the rank of Driver Engineer, promoted to the rank of Fire Lieutenant and then I was promoted to Battalion Chief March 2012. I’m sorry, 2013. VLS: So you were promoted to Battalion Chief under Chief McInerny? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. I was intern from November 2012 to – until I was permanently in place in March 2013. VLS: And have you always been Battalion Chief of A shift? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: And do you generally spend most of your working time in the office on Riverside? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. I mean we attend training, we run calls, but the majority of our day is sitting in that office. VLS: And you report directly to the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes ma’am. -4- VLS: Are you assigned any specific duties as Battalion Chief that are not shared by the other Battalions? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. I oversee apparatus maintenance and I’ve worked with the City Shop on that. And I also oversee basically, you know, it kind of falls on all three of our plates, but I, you know, oversee certain station maintenance. VLS: At all stations? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes, all three stations. It kind of – it depends on what the severity of the problem. Sometimes whatever’s on shift has to deal with it. We kind of overlap, but technically that would fall on my, you know, duty list. VLS: And in you role overseeing apparatus maintenance, you said you worked with Shop. What is the Shop? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: City Shop is where our maintenance emergency vehicle technicians operate out of and they oversee the maintenance and upkeep in testing of our fire apparatus fleet. VLS: Are you involved – and who is in charge of that Shop? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: My contact would be Randy Bills and his supervisor would be Buddy Bennett and they basically are under the command of Bob Middleton who is the, I guess it would be the Public Works Directors. VLS: And tell me how you would interact with Randy Bills? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: On each Monday, the trucks are thoroughly checked and any deficiencies are noted on the deficiency list and those are sent to me and then I forward them on to Randy and then we coordinate, you know, what scheduling permitting, maintenance to the different truck. Like right now we have one truck that’s been out for major maintenance and we have reserve in service. So right now we kind of rotate as needed through there, but he would be my primary contact. VLS: Are you in your role of overseeing apparatus maintenance, would you be involved in determining when a vehicle needs to be replaced, an apparatus needs to be replaced? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: That would not fall on me directly. That would, you know, be the Fire Chief and I could have some input, but I’ve never had any input on when, you know, they need to be replaced. VLS: Alright. Who – tell me who you supervise as Battalion Chief of shift A and if you can just kind of give me the hierarchy and with names as well so I can understand? -5- BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I oversee four lieutenants - two at Station 1 would be Lt. Zunzunegui and Lt. Moore; Fire Station 2 it’s Lt. Gerry Pecar; and in Fire Station 3 it would be Lt. Dan Crisp. VLS: Can you spell the last name? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Crisp – C R I S P. VLS: Just like it sounds. BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Bet you have a problem with Zunzunegui. VLS: I’ve seen it before so fortunately this is being recorded so I don’t need to make sure that I get it all down. Who is the Acting Battalion Chief for A in your absence BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Lt. Gerry Pecar. VLS: And how long has he been the Acting Battalion Chief? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Since I got promoted, he’s been my go-to person for Acting, so since my promotion date. And I think under the previous Battalion Chief – no, I mean, he might have done it a few times under Chief Vogel, but – the person I replaced, but he’s been my primary go-to person for that. VLS: So you replaced Battalion Chief Vogel? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: And have you stayed in touch with Vogel since he left? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. VLS: No communications with him? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I’ve seen him when he was back in town, but very rarely. Someone said he moved back up north, but I have no contact. VLS: Have you seen any – have you heard that he sent a letter to the City? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. None that I’m aware of. VLS: Very good. So you haven’t seen that? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. VLS: I interrupted you as you were going through your chain of command and you’ve told me about your four lieutenants. Who else? -6- BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Those are the four lieutenants that report directly to me and then underneath them would be their Driver Engineers. Downtown it would be for Lt. Moore, it would be Jason Toreky. And then Lt. Zunzunegui, it would be Joe Fetzer. And then Station 2 for Gerry Pecar it would be Greg Bruener and then Station 3 for Lt. Crisp it would be Don Nottingham. And then we have firefighters mixed throughout; Jerald Adcock, down at Station 1, Joe Fricchione and Austin Green and then up at Station 2 it’s Erick Saavedra, Dave Larochelle, Andrew Johnson, Will Thornton who is the new guy, and Larry Turnbaugh. And I believe that’s all of them. VLS: You didn’t know you were going to be quizzed on your personnel. BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It’s my tree [illegible]. I’m just kind of filling in the blanks. VLS: How frequently do the Battalion Chiefs meet with Chief McInerny? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: As a formal staff meeting, very rare. I think the last one we had was at the beginning of this current year in January or February. And that’s the last true staff meeting we had. VLS: And what is – when you have staff meetings, is there an agenda? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It’s basically going over current topics or anything upcoming that, you know, that we need to worry about. I think this year it was coming up and it was the PSSi evaluation. But, I didn’t think that was off the ground yet. It was, you know, just talking about it, it was coming. But it would be just really on topics that are ongoing. VLS: As it relates to the PSSi evaluation, did you participate in that in any fashion? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I was not really interviewed by any of the people there. I just happened to shift – I did go down to Station 1 when they were there so show them around and then got in a little discussion with – the guys at Station 1 kind of sat in on that. But as far as a major participant, I was, you know, kind of not involved. VLS: Did the Chief give you any instructions before PSSi came? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: The one time I did, he wanted me to show them Station 1, show them all of the area of Station 1 – facilities down there. That was the only time I really interacted with the evaluators showing them, you know, the cramped space and stuff like that in certain areas. VLS: Did he give you any instructions on areas to highlight to the PSSi investigators? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yeah. He just said show them the areas in need, you know, how bad certain areas were and, you know, how much cramped areas we have for storage and stuff like that. -7- VLS: And you were actually present when they were shown around Station 1? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: Who else was present during PSSi’s visit to Station 1? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: The guys assigned to Station 1 were at the table. I took, I think it was Mary Ellen, while they met with the other Chief who had seen the Station previously, I walked her around to the other side and showed her, you know, cramped quarters where EMS is at, and, you know, the storage areas. And then we came back and there was a little round table discussion that I really didn’t participate it. That the guys kind of like, you know, they actually sat down and had a bowl of chili with our guys and stuff. It was close to dinner time and it was just a really – round table. They got a good feeling for how we operate and the guys’ concerns and stuff like that. VLS: Was that interview – so they were listening opinions and information from the rank and file? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: Have you read the PSSi report? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I’ve looked and read through most of it. Not complete report. It’s a very large report, but I did go through a lot of the stuff. VLS: Was there anything that stood out in your mind as you went through it that you disagreed with? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yeah, because it – I really went over some of my topics points about like apparatus maintenance. I guess they weren’t informed or were never taken over to the Shop to see that we do have EVTs that are assigned to care – like they were under the impression that we weren’t annually testing our apparatus or stuff like that. There was a couple of things that I keyed in on like they weren’t aware that we do annual fit testing of our SCBA and stuff like that that I brought up. VLS: And was that – did you – after you reviewed the report, did you have the opportunity to submit information that may have gone on to PSSi as a response? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. The Chief asked us to review it and then if there were any discrepancies to fill it in and send it to him. VLS: And just so I understand what the two things you just mentioned, what is EVT? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Emergency Vehicle Technician and then they weren’t aware that we had those on staff at the Shop. Those are the guys who do the maintenance on our trucks. They were – I think they thought that we were doing our own maintenance, which, you know, we don’t. And, then that they weren’t actually -8- being annually pumped tested which is required and then the ground ladders and stuff like that, you know, were not being tested. VLS: Was there anything else that stood out in your mind as you reviewed the PSSi report? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Just the staffing that, you know, they recommended that we go to. But – VLS: Staffing being the three to one apparatus? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. And that, you know, it’s something that they thought we’re understaffed and, you know. VLS: Do you happen to agree with that standard of three to one staffing, if you have an opinion? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I’d like to have, you know, I’d like to see my truck staffed with three and I think, you know, from the day I was hired, staffing has always been an issue and I [illegible] that in our department and then as we’ve grown, I mean, we could always use the staffing because when you’re on a scene, you start running out of guys that, you know, stuff is not getting done and, you know, I would like to have a crew that I can relieve them with. So, I think we’ve always done well with what we’ve had and I think staffing has always been an issue and under the current governing group we have, we feel that we’re okay. VLS: The staffing, you do not currently have three to one staffing on apparatus? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. Like today, I’m running with two on one of the engines downtown. And then I’m actually running with one person on our tower truck today at Station 2. I want to check something real quick. VLS: Sure. Do you want to take a break? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. I’m good. Something going on in the County, too many noises. VLS: I’m going to – before we leave the PSSi report, do you have any reason to believe that they were not independent or objective in their study? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Nothing I’m aware about from my viewpoint or from what my interaction with them. I know they met with different people at different times. I know they met either [illegible] – I was told they were going to meet with me, but I think they got to spend more time with the Training Chief, Bill Moyer, and then they ran out of time on my shift and I think they met with other BCs at different times, but I never had to sit down with any one of them [illegible] sit down and interview. -9- VLS: I’m going to direct our attention now to the October 21, 2015 letter from Local 2174. Have you seen this before? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: And when did you first see the letter BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It was sent to – that morning it was sent out, it was sent to all the BCs from our Chief with FYI attached. VLS: Did it say anything more than FYI? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think it was just FYI. VLS: And it came to you via e-mail? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: E-mail. VLS: Were you aware before you saw the letter in the e-mail from the Chief, were you aware that a letter was being prepared? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. VLS: Did it surprise you that the Union sent a letter of no confidence? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It wasn’t really a, I mean, it was kind of a surprise, but I know there is some very unhappy people lately about how things have been going on and – but, it’s a pretty serious charge. So, I was kind of surprised. But I know there was some unhappy people and there had been recent meetings that I had heard about that they were having. I know of recent meetings, but I wasn’t aware of what was going on at these meetings. VLS: What I’d like to do now is go through that letter and get some specific information that you may have or may not have concerning some of the allegations that have been raised. Have you discussed this letter with anyone? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No, not from my shift. I’m aware it was sent and I’ve looked at it, but I really haven’t had any discussion with anybody. VLS: Has the Chief talked to you about the letter? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. VLS: The first point – there’s four enumerated points in the letter? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: The one, two, three? VLS: One, two, three and there’s four on the second page. - 10 - BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Right. VLS: I’m going to go through those and ask you some specifics. Are you aware of the Chief misleading the community or City staff by creating a misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I know he was pushing the Station 1, I know it, you know, there definitely needs to be something done with it. It doesn’t meet our current needs, and Station 2 as well. There are certain areas of the Station that need to be definitely redone. I know apparatus, you know, I know him trying to get a fire boat was a long, tedious process. And I think it could have been done quicker if we would have scaled it back a little bit and, you know, not gone for what he – there’s a lot of things that we could have done on a smaller scale related to that. But trucks, I know there was an apparatus committee but I wasn’t a part of, but I know there was different, you know, manufactures brought up that were highly recommended and we went with a truck that we never even really knew about. VLS: What type of truck are you speaking of? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Rosenbauer. I guess they had them on the previous department where he worked and I – we were used to having a fleet of E1s(?) or even a Pierce and I think that’s the common consensus of what we were looking for and we decided – VLS: What type of apparatus is that? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It’s a pumping. Fire pumping apparatus and ladder truck. VLS: And when was that acquired? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: 2010 or 11 maybe. VLS: Who was on the apparatus committee? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I believe it had one person from the Shop, Randy Bills. I’m not positive it was him. And, I think the – I don’t know who else, but I know Chief DiMaria was on it. I can’t – I would imagine the Chief was in on it as well. VLS: And you were not on that committee? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. VLS: And do you know what the function of that committee was? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: To get a consensus of what the best type of apparatus, you know, would fit our needs. - 11 - VLS: Was that committee charged with determining whether an apparatus was actually needed? Or just once a need was determined? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think it was established committee after the fact that we were given the funds or to proceed the go ahead of an apparatus replacement. I think it’s put together to find the best fit and need. VLS: Let’s talk about the fire boat that you mentioned. When - Has a fire boat been, a new fire boat been acquired? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. Without a pump. VLS: Alright. BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: So it makes it a rescue boat at this time. VLS: And where is the fire boat located? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It’s at Naples Sailing Yacht Club on River Point Drive. VLS: And are there plans underway to equip it with a pump? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. It was approved this budget year. VLS: Are you involved at all in the budget process? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I assist with my – I oversee my guys and make sure they get their - you know like Lt. Moore is in charge of air packs. I make sure that he gets his budget request in. Lt. Zunzunegui is in charge of hydrants. We make sure he gets a [illegible]. And Lt. Pecar in charge of bunker gear, which is a costly item. But, I don’t really have any direct involvement of preparing the budget. I just make sure my assigned officers get their requests in. VLS: And those requests go to whom? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Battalion Chief DiMaria. VLS: The fire boat, the new fire boat, was acquired when? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: This current, this past, early this year. March/April of this year. I think VLS: And do you believe that it adequately meets the needs of the department, if you have an opinion? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Once it gets a pump on it, yeah. But, I think right – I mean it’s something that we could, you know, we definitely need and just unfortunately, it’s taken awhile to get the pump on it, but it’s - that’s something we definitely need. - 12 - VLS: Did you ever have any discussions with the Fire Chief about the need for a fire boat? Did you have discussions – I mean did he say anything to you? Did you say anything to him about the fire boat? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. It was a long, lengthy process of acquiring one, but I don’t think I was in the office when this all started, but there was merely never any direct contact between me and him about regarding the boat. VLS: Are you aware of – do you believe that the Chief created a misimpression of need with regard to the fire boat? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think this process could have been a lot less drawn out if he went with a more modest approach of a boat that we truly needed. We definitely need a replacement, but I think he overshot for what, you know, we really needed and it caused a delay of us operating in a very unsafe boat that we’ve had until it was removed from service because it was totally unsafe. And actually, we were given that boat by the police department which, you know, deemed it unsafe and we put it back in service for our [illegible]. VLS: Alright. Are you – where you say he overshot, are you – what do you mean by that? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: The one he put in for was way bigger than what we needed and actually I think it was, from what I was heard of about the size of it, we wouldn’t have been able to get to the upper portions of the bay. And, I think, you know, what we have now works for our needs. VLS: In putting in for that bigger boat that you ultimately, the fire department did not get, are you aware of any way he misled staff or Council as to what was needed? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think there was an issue where he, by getting a larger boat, we were talking about using it to supply water in the south end of town, I think that was a discussion. I’m not sure where that went from, but I know it’s really – I don’t really see it being feasible. VLS: And why is that? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Because the staffing would not allow for it to be – I mean it would be any [illegible] we would need it, the extra GPMs. We would have people on scene down in the area on ground apparatus. We wouldn’t have the staffing to get the boat there. It would be a long drawn out process. I mean it would be nice to have if it was staffed 24/7, it would work. But, our current staffing, I would rather have the guys on scene than trying to get a boat to some place we probably couldn’t get to it, use it anyhow. VLS: Were you present when the Chief made any presentation to Council or did you see any documents where he described that particular need? - 13 - BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. I look at Council agendas prior to the meetings, but it’s just stuff that’s, it’s a public record, but I never was privy to any of the things that were prepared or put together for those presentations. It was all public record on the City website. VLS: The Fire Station 1, was it inspected by any outside organization? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: By whom and when? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It was A.D. Morgan and actually I was the go-to person or point contact with that company. VLS: And when did A.D. Morgan do their assessment of? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It was a couple years ago, but I know it was a part of the City contract within the inspects and evaluate all City buildings and I believe Station 1 was considered, or I think it was put to the top of the list as one of the first one’s inspected, along with some other aging buildings because of possible needs. And I was the contact person to walk the people through. VLS: Was the Chief involved at all in the inspection by A.D. Morgan? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I don’t think he was present, but he might have been in on other meetings when I was off shift. But, the days I was on duty, I think the only time he met was when we had a meeting with Dave Lykins at Community Service. I think Chief DiMaria was there as well, when they were present about what the meetings were or what, you know, discussing some of the findings that they had found or whatever, so. VLS: And I can go to the A.D. Morgan report, but can you summarize, just give me a general idea of what their recommendations were. BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: They were recommending that, you know, substantially if not replaced, remove the whole thing. There were special requirements that need to be met for that building, you know, the ADA requirements and then flood level for the apparatus floor and stuff like that. VLS: So they recommended replacement, but did they also make specific recommendations of what needed to be done until it was replaced? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. They had the HVAC system replacement. You know I walked them through on their inspection, you know, and showed them – these guys are engineers so they know what they were looking for, but there was definitely recommendations about, you know, redoing the HVAC systems and bunk rooms and stuff like that for immediate repairs. - 14 - VLS: And in your role as the point person for the A.D. Morgan inspection, did you feel that you were – the Chief didn’t in any way interfere in that process? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I wouldn’t call it interfere, but he advised me to show them all the problem areas, you know, that, you know, stuff they would have found on their own, I believe, but he made sure that, you know, I walked them through and showed them all the concerns, the areas of concerns, you know like the bathroom floors being rotted and showers being, you know, rotted. VLS: And did you believe that was appropriate for the Chief to say that? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think he was just reminding me, but I think I would have shown them all myself. And I think they would have found it themselves too because they were pretty thorough. VLS: Have there been any other inspections or reports on Fire Station 1 that you’re aware of? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Not in the scope of the A.D. Morgan report. There might have been – I know some Council people have walked through on their own and our guys have walked them through. I heard there was one recently, Councilman Finlay was – this was within two weeks, I think. It was our shift and they walked them through. VLS: And do you know who walked him through? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Lt. Dan Zunzunegui. VLS: Did Dan Zunzunegui prepare a report or summary of the tour of Fire Station 1? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. I was asked by the Chief to have Lt. Zunzunegui or Lt. Moore, who were both on shift that day, to prepare a full report of what, how the interaction went and what he was shown. VLS: And did you review the report? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It was sent directly to the Chief, but I was cc’d in that report and it was all prepared by Lt. Zunzunegui because Lt. Moore happened to be out training when Councilman Finley stopped by. VLS: Do you believe that Zunzunegui was pressured in any way to prepare the report in anything less than an accurate fashion? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No, but I was – it was very stress – very firmly – not firmly, but make sure he put everything in detail in the report from start to finish, basically the words from my Chief McInerny from start to finish, all interactions and how it total went. And, Lt. Zunzunegui did prepare a very thorough report. Pretty much everything, interaction and what he showed him. - 15 - VLS: And were – do you believe that Zunzunegui reported it accurately? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. Very much so. VLS: Were you present at the time of the walk through? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. I was told that morning. I was called by Chief McInerny that Councilman Finley may be coming to the Station to tour it. We didn’t have a timeframe so I told my guys just be prepared and, you know, this is, you know, who might be showing up. [Illegible] around 3:00 in the afternoon and I was over in my office working on another project. VLS: When did you say A.D. Morgan did their report? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think it’s going back to 2013 or so because I was in, I believe I wasn’t fully promoted then. VLS: Have there been, and as I understand that Fire Station 1 has not been replaced? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. VLS: Have there been any renovations or major repairs to Fire Station 1? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: Since the report? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No, not since the report. Nothing. VLS: Nothing since 2013? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I don’t believe so except for major, maybe appliance repairs or something like that. But as far as structural, nothing has been done. VLS: Do you know whether any monies have been budgeted for repairs? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes, I have seen monies budgeted and I’ve seen them go through the whole year and nothing has been done. VLS: And do you know why that it is? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I believe it’s probably to keep it in its current condition to make it more feasible to have a new station built. VLS: And what, what leads you to that opinion or impression? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I believe that just from not being used, the budget monies not being used or being pushed off. - 16 - VLS: Has the Chief provided – has the Chief said anything to you about that being. We’ll strike. Is the Chief the one that decides whether repairs are going to be done? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: And have you had any discussions or been privy to any communications where the Chief has discussed the money that has been budgeted for Fire Station 1 since 2013? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. VLS: So, have you seen any documents or heard the Chief represent that monies, budgeted monies, are not going to be used for Fire Station 1 because otherwise there will be a new fire station built? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Not directly to me, but I know there’s, I think there’s questions every year. Do we want to move forward this [illegible]. I think Chief DiMaria being in charge of the budget, I think I may be heard or, you know, stated that, you know, we’re just going to hold off or, you know, nothing’s going to be done with that money. And it is usually rolled over or we lose it. But nothing’s been, you know – VLS: That’s never been said to you by the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. VLS: Did the City – did the NFD recently get a new Battalion Chief truck? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. We do have money budgeted in this fiscal year for one. I believe that one and another, I think, a new Chief’s vehicle. VLS: Have you been involved at all in the process in determining the need for a new vehicle or what type of vehicle will be purchased? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I heard that we might be changing vehicles which, you know, we were going into a smaller truck for some reason I’m not sure why due to the amount of equipment we have, but I think the current truck we have now, maybe the plan I heard from Battalion Chief Nichols or somebody that, you know, we would take that and use that as a tow vehicle to replace even older building or truck. But, as far as, you know, going to a smaller vehicle, I don’t understand that reasoning for that. VLS: But you haven’t been part of any discussions? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Nothing on purchasing part of it. there’s money budgeted for it. I do know that VLS: And are you aware or do you believe that the Chief has in any way misled the Council or staff by creating a misimpression of need as to the Battalion Chief truck? - 17 - BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think the current truck we have now is fine for our needs. The mileage on it is low. Of course, it would be great to have a new vehicle, but, you know, I think what we have now is currently, it works. VLS: Who would be – would the Shop be involved in evaluating the need for a replacement vehicle? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: And the person that would have information would be, you mentioned Randy Bills? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Randy Bills or Buddy Bennett. VLS: There’s been mention of a new quick response vehicle, a QRV that has been purchased. Are you familiar with how that came to be purchased? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I know there is some discussion at Council meeting about sending larger trucks to calls where we could send a smaller truck. And, you know, I know we currently staff a smaller QRV at Station 2. One recently was purchased and delivered here for Station 1. It’s called Rescue 1. But, really with current staffing and no plans to increase the current staffing, I really don’t see that truck being staffed. VLS: With respect to that, do you know – do you believe that the Chief in any way misled Council or City staff with regard to the use of the new QRV or the need for it? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think there was hope that by purchasing it we would staff it and I know I remember hearing from previous, you know, meetings that, you know, there was a plan to take people off of a front line engine and put them on the QRV and then we would have less response capabilities from an engine to a QRV, but I think that was – I don’t know if there was any intention to deceive, but I know there was probably staffing involved in how to, you know, if we buy something, we gotta staff it. I think that might have been a thought process of doing it. VLS: But you – BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: But, I mean currently the plans, there is no plan in place for it and I think, in my personal opinion, I think taking people off of a front line engine to staff a QRV just to show that we are staffing it, takes away from actually, you know, ability to respond for the public’s needs. VLS: Do you know what communications the Chief had with City Council about the QRV and what representations or statements he made with respect to that? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Just what was said at Council meetings. I’m not sure of any private meeting between him and current – but stuff that I saw and was relayed at the Council meetings. - 18 - VLS: Do you attend the Council meetings or look at, or watch the actual video? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I’ll watch if it has something that pertains to me. Not that City [illegible] I care about what goes on in the City, so I do occasionally watch it or I will put the minutes, not the minutes, but I will pull the agenda and watch certain items on the video. VLS: Did you watch any video as it related to the Council’s consideration of the purchase of a new QRV? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think I remember seeing it after the fact about how the – it was part of a budget hearing and, you know, I think there was concern about buying it, but I think it was relayed that, you know, we can use it and we can staff it, but I mean I’m not sure of when or if we would ever staff it because of current staffing, we don’t have the people to staff it. VLS: Did the Chief appear at that meeting? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I believe so. VLS: And address the issue? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It was a budget meeting, so I believe all of the department heads were there. VLS: Do you recall when that hearing – not hearing – well, I guess you did. You said it was a budget hearing? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It was a previous, not this current budget year, it was the previous one because we just received delivery [illegible], but it was a budget item from two budgets ago. VLS: So the budget hearing would have taken place, if I were to be looking for that? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It would probably be 13/14. Or, 14/15 because this was 15/16 fiscal year. VLS: Do you have any, as you sit here today, do you have any specific recollection of what the Chief said about the QRV? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think it was along the topics of that was, it was a Council thing about, I think it was a county-wide thing about larger trucks responding to medical calls and I think it was the QRV discussion where it was a hot topic at that point about quick response vehicles, you know, a less – a smaller vehicle getting there quicker which is sometimes not the case. I mean, but I think that was the hot topic at that point of sending smaller more agile trucks to get to these places where they don’t have the true capability of a regular truck that we currently staffed. - 19 - VLS: I’d like to move on to the second point in the Union’s October 21, 2015 letter where they claim that, where the Union claims that the Department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity. Do you have personal knowledge as to whether the Chief has made misrepresentations or exaggerations with respect to fire calls? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: There was one. I think some of the times some things are tend to be embellished. You know, there – one in general, there was a fire in a kitchen in Gordon River Apartments where I was, after the fact, I was on shift as Battalion Chief and we met Councilwoman Penniman who was newly on the Board and she wanted to see the fire scene that had occurred over the weekend, which, you know, was pretty quickly knocked down our personnel and [illegible] was relayed – it was like a significant fire with significant damage loss and water used or whatever. And, I remember her saying, you know, where’s all the water? And, you know, on that current fire, and, you know, and I mean it was basically a quick knockdown fire. There wasn’t a long line laid for supply line, but, you know, it did – I think I remember the letter that was sent out regarding the fire. I think maybe it was a press release or something or something along the lines sent to City staff about the intensity and fire, amount of water used. But, and I remember her distinctly saying, you know, where is all the water damage and it was very dry in there. VLS: Did you personally go to that scene while it was being responded to? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I was off duty, but I did get the call on my text and it was close to my home. I went there and basically the fire was out when I got there and they were basically overhauling and getting ready to pack up. VLS: And who responded to that fire? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: That was B shift. VLS: B shift? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. I think it was Battalion Chief Nichols shift. I think he was on shift that day. But I know Lt. Homan was on scene as well. VLS: Who prepared the report, did the initial coding on the kitchen fire at the Gordon River Apartments? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I would imagine it would be Lt. Homan or Battalion Chief Nichols. And, it was a fire. I think the amount of water used is significantly lower than what was relayed. VLS: Do you know whether the person who prepared the report, whether any of the coding or values or even the narrative was changed after it was initially coded? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: That happens from time to time when there’s something different. Insurance adjusters get involved and there are stuff changed, but - 20 - the initial report narrative, you know, unless somebody goes back on that call, I wasn’t aware of anything. I mean, I wasn’t – it wasn’t my call so I didn’t even review the report so there may be somebody that did some adjusting after the fact. VLS: You’re not aware of, for instance, the Chief requesting that there be some change in how it was coded or described? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It might have been to the person on scene. VLS: But you don’t know? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No, I don’t know. VLS: Has the way that the fire department codes calls, has that changed during your tenure? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: In what way has it changed? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: We’ve been directed, even this goes back to when I was a lieutenant working for Battalion Chief DiMaria, that there were certain things that, you know, we were told that needed to be changed. For instance, hazardous condition, electrical, now for certain things that could be coded that way, we were directed to turn them into building fires. For one incident that I can remember that I was involved with that it was light switch, on the backside of a light switch, which is minor electrical in nature. And the shop owner called because she could smell smoke and we determined that’s where it was. It was a little sparking or shorting behind the switch plate. And, being the lieutenant at the time, that was my report to take care of and on discussing it on scene with Chief DiMaria that, you know, we needed to make that a building fire even though it was a, you know, a small electrical malfunction in nature. VLS: Was that communicated to you by the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Not Chief McInerny, but Battalion Chief. But that was made known to the Battalion Chiefs back then by the Chief from what I was told. VLS: Who was the Battalion Chief at the time? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: My current Battalion Chief? VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Was Chief DiMaria. VLS: Is the coding something that is specified by law or by certain standards? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think it goes under the NFIRS reports which is the National Fire Instant Reporting System and there’s sub secs of different things where, - 21 - you know, there’s the classical fires, but there’s also electrical hazards and there’s a lot of data that you can dig down to really dig, you know, determine what type of coding is correct for that call. VLS: What training have you had on coding under the National Fire Instant Reporting System? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Just what was taught to us down – I mean, we might have had training on new computer systems that involve it, but as far as, you know, just basically classes I’ve taken through National Fire. Not National Fire Academy, but, you know, [illegible] classes for Fire Instructor, you know, Fire Officer 1 and stuff. But, you know, as far as reporting system goes, it’s just something you learn as you progress through the ranks. VLS: Is there some discretion involved in coding? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It’s basically up to what the officer or the personnel on scene find. I mean, I was told by the Chief before as – in my Battalion Chief role as guys would code like arching power line when a tree branch falls on it and he’s made us take that, where, you know, was it a palm frond, was there any evidence of the palm frond ever catching fire. You know, really there might have been or there might have not been. But, I was told to go back and have that lieutenant change it from arching power line to equipment fire or a vegetation fire because it was something that came in contact with, you know, the arching power line. VLS: Did you disagree with that change in coding? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Well, I wasn’t on scene, but I did talk to [illegible] well there really wasn’t anything burning. I said, well you need to make the change and that was, you know, told to me by the Chief from him reviewing – I guess he was reviewing calls and looking at stuff and he may have looked at it differently. I’m not sure what the narrative was. VLS: I think that we got into this discussion with my question as to whether you were aware of the Chief making misrepresentations or exaggerations with respect to fire calls. Is there – as to the kitchen fire at the Gordon River Apartments, do you know whether the Chief was in any way involved in the coding of that fire? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No, that was pretty straightforward. A building fire. I mean, that was a true building fire. I’m not sure, I believed he arrived on scene after or the next day or two or whatever, but I know I went, my next oncoming shift which was two days later, to show Council Penniman, you know, the fire scene. VLS: I guess what I’m asking is you, I think you were bringing that up as something that you offered as an example of a possible embellishment. Was the Chief involved in any way in directing how that fire was described or reported? - 22 - BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: He may have been after the fact, but, excuse me, and it was a weekend and the initial report would have been completed by the on duty staff and upon him reviewing it for, reviewing the narrative or the dollar loss, there may have been some changing after the fact. VLS: But you don’t know? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: But I don’t know. I just went and from what I observed on scene and how the scene looked from being there, I think I was there and gone before, I think, the Chief and Fire Marshall might of showed up. But from what I saw, was very little damage in the kitchen. But amount of water used was very little. VLS: So in comparing the report to what you observed, it is seemed to be that there was some – BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: From what he sent about the fire out, about, you know, the water used and stuff like that, and what we were there showing Council Penniman about the water supply to the distance we had to lay for something we used very little water was, you know, kind of what I was pointing at. VLS: What was it that was sent out? I guess that’s what I don’t understand. BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think he has – like after he’ll do like incident reports and keep the department directors and Council people aware of what, you know, how we, you know, any incidents that we’ve had. I think he sent something out with pictures and about – I think it was the way he worded about – the way – how much fire was involved and how much water was used for it. VLS: Do you have access to, I mean where, if I was looking for that report that the Chief apparently authored or published, where would I find that? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It might be in an e-mail sent to the City Manager or I think that goes to the City Manager and then it goes [illegible] I think the City Manager is involved with sending it on to Council. VLS: Do you recall, can you be any more specific time wise as to when the Gordon River kitchen fire occurred? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I would say at least two years ago. VLS: Are you – let me begin again. Has there been any change in the way the fire department reports damage values on fire reports since, really since the Chief came on board? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I know that sometimes it, sometimes it’s left up to us to determine a value, a loss damage, initial one. And I know it gets changed after the fact because a lot of times I will review the reports for what the dollar loss is and, you - 23 - know, let the Fire Marshall know that this is what [illegible] now. And it’s always up to – he has the ability to go back and change it if it, you know, more or less. VLS: The Fire Marshall does? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. That’s, you know, he’s the one that oversees the final report and then – not the final report, but we have lieutenants that – I’m sorry – people that review the reports before they are sent to the State. But, ultimately, we all start with an estimated dollar loss and it has a possibility to go higher or lower after the fact. Like different people that audit, they’re look at – or review the reports. VLS: Are you aware of whether the Chief has – becomes involved in directing that dollar losses on fires be changed? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think he has the ability to and reviewing it with the Fire Marshall. For example, there was one fire, there was a very minimal fire down on Third Street, Marissa Collections, turned into a very high dollar loss. But I think that was, you know, them consulting with the insurance company, but I know that turned from a very small dollar loss, physical fire wise to inventory loss. But, there’s always possibilities for different things to be reviewed after the fact with the insurance companies. VLS: I mean are you aware of the Chief in any way misrepresenting or exaggerating losses or ordering losses to be increased when – and that’s what I’m – I’m just trying to determine. I realize it can be done and there’s reasons why it should be done, I presume? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I’m not sure, I don’t know – I think, not that I recall of my personal self, but dollar loss for certain homes or stuff like that, but from what I can remember, I don’t think there was a time when I was told to change it or increase a dollar amount loss on certain things, so. VLS: As Battalion Chief, have you ever been instructed by the Chief to revise or change reports or to instruct your lieutenants or staff to revise or change reports? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: And, how frequently has that happened? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It hasn’t been in a while, but there has been times where we’ve changed things from, you know, mostly it turns it from like arching electrical or electrical malfunction other, and turn it into a building fire where – when there really was not a true building fire, but in his determination, that would fall under the, you know [illegible]. VLS: Under a different code? - 24 - BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Exactly. And I have had questions from lieutenants on why and I said this is, you know, was directed by to me to change. VLS: Did the Chief explain to you why the change in the coding? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: He has shown different, you know, like he’ll pull up – I remember one time we were talking in the office that he showed me a piece from the NFA code book about or whatever about, you know, certain things it could classify as a fire if this, this and this occur. And, you know, I agree, you know, that sometimes it falls under that and it could be classified as such, but there’s other pieces of paper that you can go to and look and see that it also classifies it could be this. And I rely on my guys that are on scene to tell me what it is. VLS: Has there been any change in how fires are radioed in in terms of commands? Has there been a change? Have you been advised of any change as to when the command “fire out” is to be given? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. This goes back to when I was lieutenant that, you know, we were told by – at then chain of command to have our guys stay on scene longer and that was told to me back before when I was a lieutenant. VLS: Who told you that? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Battalion Chief DiMaria. VLS: And did he tell you why there were – ? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Just wanted to give us longer on scene times. VLS: Did he tell you who had originated that order? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: The Chief. And once I became Battalion Chief, it was relayed on to me as well that, you know, we need to be – stay on scene longer and, you know, that for any kind of fire calls or whatever, he wanted us to pull lines even though maybe the fire could have been extinguished with a water can versus pulling a line and, you know, taking the truck out of service for a longer extended time. VLS: Did the Chief explain or give any reason why you were to pull lines as opposed to using an online source? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: So that we would put in the narrative that we did pull and [illegible] lines. Lines were pulled in place of using a water can or in some instances, a homeowner’s garden hose for certain things. VLS: But I mean did he tell you why the change that he wanted it to say – the report? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. - 25 - VLS: What did he say? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Longer on scene times. VLS: And did he indicate why he wanted longer on scene times reflected? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think to possibly help us show that we need more units because we’re being tied up longer and that, you know, it would require more staffing. VLS: Did he say that? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think it would just not having the ability for the unit to get back in service in case something else happens we would be coming up short on being able to respond. VLS: I mean but did he, did he actually in some way convey that the reason he wanted on – ? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Basically for longer on scene times tying up a unit. VLS: And did, did you follow that order? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. I actually had guys pull a line. We had a, I think it was mulch fire at a residence. I had them pull a line to it and use it to – you know, I mean it could be done with a water can or garden hose. VLS: When – can you place location or date on that particular mulch fire. BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It was up in the [illegible] area, but date I think would have been about a year or so ago. VLS: Have you ever told – discussed these matters with the City Manager’s office? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Not myself, no. VLS: Have you ever discussed these matters with any member of Council? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. VLS: Has the Chief ever said to you or in your presence something to the effect that you should allow fires to grow and not put them out so fast or to let property burn? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Not let property burn. I can’t really recall any time where – I don’t think I would conscious effort to ever let that happen and I don’t think any of my personnel would either. But, I mean, I know he’s, you know, trying to make a push for more personnel. But, there might have been different things that I might have heard from other people. - 26 - VLS: Okay. I’m only asking for your, I’m only asking for your personal knowledge. BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yeah. VLS: Has the Chief ever, to your knowledge, suggested that the fire department not be as aggressive in responding to fires? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think basically we were told that, you know, two intwo out rule applies on certain fires, on all fires that, you know, for people going into the fire which I fully endorse and it’s a national practice. Two people, you need two people on scene before you send two people out, you know, in case they get in trouble, you have people on scene. But, I don’t think our guys have ever been directed to slow down or, but, I know we’ve gotten in a mode where we do want to be more careful on scene where, you know, we may not commit as much people to a certain fire if we know we don’t have the [illegible] putting lives in danger. VLS: You don’t disagree with – I mean that is something that you don’t necessarily disagree with? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I, no, I think we’ve always been aggressive. I mean from when I – my early years on, we’ve always been that way. But right now I think I look at it a different level from where I’m at now. I don’t want to get anybody killed or whatever. But, and my – the people that work for me know that. But, I don’t think there would be any intentional slowdown of – for not making, you know, a fire attack. So, but, I can’t recall of anything ever being told, you know, let it burn. VLS: Okay. Alright. If we can go on to the third point in the Union’s letter which states the allegation is made that the Chief’s misrepresentations, exaggerations and outright mendacity have created a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire-rescue personnel. Do you believe that there is a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire-rescue personnel? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: And how long do you believe that – when did that lack of trust begin? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I would say a couple of years ago. I know there’s been some issues, you know, just recently there’s been some issues of, you know, telling the truth about certain positions being filled and, you know, and discussions with, I guess, it was the Union leader or whatever. But, there’s been issues about being truthful about what is actually going and I feel that we’re, you know, as a BC level, we’re being left out of a lot of key decisions and we’re not being asked questions that we could probably have answers because of our local knowledge and the years that we’ve been in this town and how it operates. I think we could have been included in a lot more things that are being done behind the scenes that we don’t have any say in. And, I guess that’s his every right to do, but. VLS: Explain for me, give me some examples of that? - 27 - BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Like, staffing currently and how we’re going to be staffing the airport, about overtime, you know, and how it’s going to be classified and staffed there. VLS: And you were saying that those are things that the Battalion Chiefs have not been included in discussions to the extent that you would like to see it? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: Do you believe that the Chief has made any misrepresentations or exaggerations in connection with the airport issue and staffing? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think we, we could have had this thing resolved in a much better fashion, but I think, I’m not exactly sure where some of these numbers came from for reimbursement from the airport authority, but I think we’ve done this for a long enough time where I think the numbers were feasible and, you know, staffing it like it was. I’m not sure I did hear something about an exaggerated number, a very large number, which caused this whole thing to go, you know, the way it did. VLS: What did – and what – I don’t know what you are referring to? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Well, it’s the cost of the airport reimbursing the City for staffing of airport station where I know it’s a pretty steady, a value. And it goes up according to wage growth, which we haven’t had because of, you know, recession problems. And then I know there was different areas where it was told to me that the numbers skyrocketed and so. VLS: Do you know what – who was – do you know who was involved in determining the cost of reimbursement? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I believe it was the Chief and the City Manager’s Office. VLS: And do you know what process was used to come up with estimated cost of reimbursement? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No, I just maybe think full cost reimbursement for staffing out there, I would imagine. But I don’t know what – VLS: You don’t know what the process was or how they came to that? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. VLS: Are you aware of any other fire department personnel that was involved in assisting with calculating costs reimbursement? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think maybe Chief DiMaria or – this might have been early on, but I don’t really, I mean this goes back a year, not anything recent, but I think - 28 - when things went bad with him, there might have – that was the case, but I don’t if any of our guys were directly involved. VLS: I think we were discussing the third point and you’ve indicated that you believe there is a lack of trust between the Chief and City’s fire-rescue personnel. Are there – you mentioned a promotion process. What information do you have that suggests there may have been misrepresentations, exaggerations or lies in connection with the promotion process? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Well, I think he was asked by the Union President about filling a vacant Training Chief position and, you know, he was leading on to believe that we have an internal candidate that was going to be considered and all along he had someone else, you know, basically lined up to fill that position. VLS: And where – were you involved in – was that position discussed with you at all? The filling of that position? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think he asked me once about Lt. Pecar. That he was interested in him. That was basically, I didn’t have any other, you know, comment or discussion with the Chief on that. Just that he was interested in putting in for it. VLS: Is Pecar under your? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. He’s a lieutenant under my shift. VLS: And so are you involved in evaluating Pecar? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: And do you know – how have you evaluated him in the past couple years? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Just from working and, you know, above average, I mean. VLS: To your knowledge or during the time that you’ve been Battalion Chief over Pecar, has he been the subject of any disciplinary action? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Not that I’m aware of it. It would have come through me. VLS: Do you know what the qualifications, state of qualifications are for Battalion Chief Training position? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Other stuff, degrees preferable, bachelor’s or whatever, but there are other technology, not technology, but educational that can be [illegible]. Like for instance, when I was promoted, I was close to my degree. I finished my degree. It was part of – as a stipulation from myself and Human Resources Director, Denise Perez, that you know, I would obtain this degree, you know, upon, you - 29 - know, gaining employment as the Battalion Chief position and was completed. So there – and then there’s other Battalion Chiefs that have been promoted without the proper degrees, but they had other credentials that would be [illegible] in place. VLS: Does Pecar have a degree? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No, I don’t think so. VLS: Did the Chief – did you give the Chief any input on Pecar’s suitability or qualification for the position of Battalion Chief in the Training Division? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think it was a me and him discussion about how, I think I mentioned how good he would be because he has Hazmat knowledge and local knowledge, and his ability – his contacts throughout the county from his days as being the Hazmat Team Coordinator, and being involved with other departments, training wise I think he would have been a very, very good candidate for that position because of joint training and stuff like that. And his current knowledge and local knowledge of everything going on here, and he’s got the same amount of years I have, so he’s very knowledgeable of how we operate already. VLS: Did you – you did communicate that to the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Not in that depth, but I said he would be a great candidate because of his local knowledge and his other agency contacts. VLS: Did you give the Chief anything in writing, e-mail communications, texts, anything relating to Pecar and his consideration for the vacant position? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Not that I’m aware of. VLS: And did the Chief discuss with you the promotion process for, not the promotion process, but the filling of that position? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. VLS: And do you personally know when the Chief made the decision to hire Phil Pennington for that position? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: The only thing I know of was we were still being misled that it was not filled yet and one of our firefighters that lives on the east coast was at a party and was told this by a person that currently worked at Ft. Lauderdale that, you know, hey, you’re getting another, you know, person over there. And he’s like, what are you talking about, we already have, you know. And he brought that back to his lieutenant and it was – VLS: Who was that firefighter? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Mark Hoyt. - 30 - VLS: Quaint? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Hoyt. H O Y T. VLS: And who was his lieutenant? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Lt. Homan. scheduled. I think you have a meeting with him VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think you also have a meeting with Lt. Pecar too. VLS: Okay. You said misled or misrepresented. Did the Chief, during that time period, tell you that Pecar was still under consideration? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I believe – I don’t think he told me, but I did hear that, you know, he had said that to someone else that, you know. VLS: Okay. So you’re, in that respect, relying on something that someone else told you? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Was told. VLS: Was told. And who was that person? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I believe it was Lt. Nadelman in a meeting with the Chief. VLS: Are you aware of any other situations where you believe that the Chief has misrepresented, exaggerated or lied leading to a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire-rescue personnel? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think sometimes the guys are aware of scenes that they’ve operated on and they’ve seen e-mails or communications that he sent out of that scene and they have no knowledge of it being that, you know, happening a certain way or being exaggerated in communication to, regarding, you know, fire department responses. VLS: Have you – can you identify any such e-mails? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Again, it would e-mails that he had sent to the City Manager or the department directors about operating at certain scenes and I think that was relayed on to either the media or to Council. I’m not sure where it goes from, but I think I have seen, been included on e-mails that go to the City Manager and then from there, I’m not sure whether, how they’re or when they’re disseminated to wherever the Council or. - 31 - VLS: I mean, can you, if you were asked to look for e-mails that fit that description, would you be able to find them? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I’m pretty sure I could find them on my e-mail, the deleted e-mail. But, you know, I might look at them or review them and just delete them, but they would still be on the server, I imagine. VLS: Why – what led you to conclude that they, that those e-mails exaggerated or misrepresented a scene? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: From ones that I was told or, you know, some different ones that, you know, guys were saying, you know, that wasn’t on the scene I was at. I mean I don’t remember it being like that. It’s just – it was told to me. VLS: If you can locate any examples of those e-mails, and I’ve given you my business card, you can forward those to me via e-mail, I would appreciate it. BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Okay. VLS: Any other situations where you believe that the Chief has misrepresented, exaggerated or lied that has led to a lack of trust between the Chief and City fire-rescue personnel? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: There was a scene on Fifth Avenue South of a fatality fire where my crew had taken over for the crew that had worked the fire. The State Fire Marshall was on scene. And I, you know, I think some of the guys were questioning, you know, his interaction with the media. VLS: Okay, tell me what you mean to be more descriptive? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Well, he was showing – the State Fire Marshall’s office was trying to conduct an investigation. He was, you know, showing media certain aspects of the fire when, you know, he basically told the Fire Marshall there, the State Fire Marshall, that, you know, this is his scene. He can do what he wants on it, and he was showing media. He was using an aerial truck that was blocking traffic to show elevated shots of the fire for different media. He rotated different media outlets one by one up the ladder. And, we were actually being asked when was Fifth Avenue going to be opened up and, you know, he was doing that before the State Fire Marshall completed their investigation. They were actually going to use our ladder truck as part of that, so I think that might have been the guys are questioning going why is he doing this? This is an active scene. And, they were kind of questioning, you know. VLS: Now, were you on scene? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: Did you – so is this based in part on your personal observation? - 32 - BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: Did you overhear or were you present when the Chief was communicating with the Fire Marshall on scene? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I did overhear a somewhat argument between the upset State Fire Marshall, that, you know, what are you doing this and you’re still on active investigation scene and [illegible] the Chief said back, this is my scene and, you know, I’ll run it how I want. VLS: Who was the Fire Marshall on scene? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It was a State person, I’m not sure [illegible]? VLS: You don’t know the name? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. VLS: And when was the Fifth Avenue South fatality? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It was in February. VLS: Of 2015? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: Let’s take a break. It’s now 11:30 and we’re going to take about a 10-minute break so I’m going to return the recorder off. VLS: Okay, we’ve taken a break and we’re back with the interview. It is now about 11:35. And, I wanted to go back for a minute. We were talking previously about the vacant position for Battalion Chief in the training position. Have you reviewed Pennington’s qualifications or resume? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Only from what the Chief has sent out. But I did hear that he was trying to get registered for certain classes and then it was brought to my attention after both hearing what qualifications he didn’t have. Basically, not even having his Fire Service Instructor for Training Chief position which is, you know, heavily on the instruction portion of it. And different other – this is what I was told. I didn’t physically dig or look, but he was lacking several other positions, or qualifications, that our personnel need to even fill in or promote to Lieutenant position or even Driver Engineer. VLS: What do you believe those positions are that would be necessary? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Fire Officer 1. And that’s a requirement listed as a part of the requirements for lieutenant’s position. VLS: And Fire, what was the other one? - 33 - BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think Fire Service Instructor. VLS: Do you believe that’s also in the - ? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I would say definitely for the Training Chief position. VLS: Anything else that you believe is a prerequisite or a qualification for the position that you have heard that he does not have? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I’m not sure. I know there was a pump operator maybe. I’m not if he is or not, but I know that that was one of the ones that would be helpful to have. VLS: Have you had any interaction with Battalion Chief Pennington since his arrival? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: And how would you characterize that interaction? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Cordial. I know he does have a lot on his plate and, you know, there’s been stuff that I’ve had to help him through and I think he has a long road ahead of him to get caught up to where we would like to have a person at. I mean he’s a great guy, nice guy. I don’t really know him. But, in the interaction we’ve had with him has been cordial. But I just think that there were other better suited candidates and, you know, this is my opinion that internally that we had and it would get us a lot farther along than where we’re – where I feel we’re going to be going and how long it’s going to take to get up and running. VLS: Who, in your opinion, were better suited candidates? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I believe Lt. Pecar would have been my number 1 and I think Lt. Adamski would have been a good candidate as well. And, they had the current interworking and knowledge of how everything operates around here. VLS: I want to make sure that I’ve covered everything. We were generally discussing the allegations in the Union’s letter. In particular, point 3, where they alleged that the Chief’s misrepresentations, exaggerations and outright mendacity have created a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire-rescue personnel. Do you have any other observations or personal knowledge as it relates to that particular point? I realize that it’s not you that has made the allegations. BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Right. There are some concerns I had with a recent missing boater call that we had a crew on the water doing search, working with the Sheriff’s Office searching for a missing – it turned – I guess it classified as a – it was a fatality. But we had crew on the water and the Chief texted me that he had a crew from, I think it was NBC2, that he wanted us to take out on the boat and I let him know that they were currently actively searching. And there was mostly just texts back and forth, but he told me to make arrangements for them, to stop their search, come in and pick - 34 - up the news crew to take them out to show them how we operate. I was kind of, you know, they did need to come in for a rest break and asked for me to bring them a certain piece of equipment that they wanted to take back out there, but there was a long delay in getting them back in they’re out on the water to assist with the search because he wanted to have a certain newsperson with a cameraman go out there and show, you know, how we operate, which, you know, it’s good. But I think during an active search, kind of like, you know, question the fact that, you know, we would stop for something like that. I mean I know they did come in for a restroom break and then pick up a piece of equipment. I think it was another half hour or so before they were able to get back out there, waiting for them and then they had to do the interview on the water and then bring them back into shore. So I think – and then they proceeded back out to search through [illegible] and then they were released by their command, which was the Sheriff’s Office. VLS: This occurred during your shift? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: My shift. VLS: And do you have those texts or e-mails with the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: They would probably be somewhere in the phone, but I’m not sure if they were deleted or – they were on that phone, the Battalion Chief’s – the on-duty Battalion Chief’s phone. VLS: Oh, so you don’t – there is a single phone that used for the Battalion Chief? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: And you have it now because you are on shift? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: On shift, yes. VLS: Can you look to see if that text is still available? While you are looking, if I can – well I guess you’ll – in the process of looking for that, you’ll be trying to determine the date that that occurred? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It’s September 6. VLS: Okay. Is there a way you take a screen shot of those texts? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I can try. I can go back to the office and send them to you? VLS: Yes, please. And, just so I can understand, these are – well, if you can show them to me now, but I would still like, if you can still find them, I would still like them to be sent just to see if I have any further questions while I have you in the room. BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It’s loading, sorry. - 35 - VLS: Thank you. Okay, can you show me – oh, this – that’s about the reporter? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yeah. “The reporter should be in 15 copy?” “Do you have her phone number?” “I’m with the fire boat now at the dock.” “Did you find her?” I said. “She’s still in route with her crew and [illegible] waiting for them.” They wrote, “Okay, get her on board quick.” But it’s just the process, delayed process. VLS: Thank you. Going back to point 3 in the Union’s letter related to allegations that the Chief made misrepresentations, exaggerations or lied creating a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire-rescue personnel, is there anything that you believe – that you have knowledge of that you would like to bring to my attention as to that allegation? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I just think that, you know, there’s been a push for, and I think he’s trying to do the right thing with staffing, whatever, but I think we’ve gotten to the point where there’s so much distress by the community and Council of what everything that he says that there really – we’re at a point where everything we do from here on out is going to be skeptical or, you know, I just – I mean there’s been a lot that has gone on pushing for staffing that I think we’ve gotten to a point where there’s distress there that, you know. But, as far as [illegible], I don’t really have any on top of my head in regards to that. VLS: Okay. You agree that staffing, additional staffing is required? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I believe so, yeah. VLS: Okay, it we could move to the fourth point on the Union’s letter. It states that the Chief has attempted to influence and otherwise cause the Union to undermine some City objectives. Is – do you have any information relating to any attempt to influence or cause the Union to undermine City objectives? Do you even know what’s being referred to in that allegation? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I think it might some have to do with the way we currently run our ALS Program requiring guys to ride in on ALS calls which takes a truck out of service for an extended amount of time. VLS: Was this an issue that the Union – has the Union raised an issue or did they file a grievance with respect that? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I’m not sure if there was a grievance filed, but I know there was some questions about, you know, is this the best policy to be having. Because, you know, during season we are very busy and it takes trucks out of service and, you know, it’s good program in relation to the guys doing hands on ALS treatment. They think we can do it a different way to have the truck put back in service quicker. VLS: Anything else on that point? - 36 - BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Again, it goes back to stuff I have heard about the airport and people being involved and stuff. Plans that may have been made about staffing out there. And, I disagree with how we’re doing it now. I mean or how we’re going to be doing it. VLS: Tell me what your – because I’m not even sure what the current plans are for staffing, so if you could tell me what they are and why you disagree? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Not staffing it 24/7 and I think there could have been better communication to the City residents that live out there about how, just how the whole process came together. I mean how we ended up staffing or we’re intending to staff out there. I think there was a communication to the Union President about sending the letters to residents out there that we’re not staffing it or whatever. VLS: Communication by the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: To the Union President, I think. VLS: From the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: Did you see that communication? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. VLS: And did you think it was, I mean, do you know what was in the communication? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I mean, I think that we’re not going to have a presence out there. There was a chance that we might not have had a presence out there. I think the whole process in general could have been handled better. I mean, if we got more people that [illegible] local knowledge of it, I think there’s some – the way it was handled between the airport and stuff, I think it was handled, you know, I think if there were people getting along and the right people were talking. VLS: Are you aware of the Chief making any misrepresentations, lies or exaggerations in connection with that process? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I wasn’t currently there, but I did remember, or hear, and it was one of those reports that were sent out with pictures of a fuel leak at the airport that was already basically mitigated and we had crews go out there, you know, take pictures of what was done and I’m not sure what the – how the report narrative read, but I guess it was after the fact that we had taken trucks out there to pose for pictures. Basically it’s something that happened. It was already cleaned up and done. VLS: When did that occur? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It was on B shift and probably within a year or so. - 37 - VLS: Would that be something that the Battalion Chief for B would have knowledge of? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I believe it might be Lt. Homan was the Acting Battalion Chief on that. VLS: You have no personal knowledge that was relayed to you and you believe he might have knowledge? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes, and it was part of a report sent out of the pictures of the person operating out there that I did receive as part of the e-mail chain. VLS: From whom did you receive the e-mail? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: It was the Chief to Council. Or not to Council, to, I think department directors or City Manager. VLS: And you believe that the e-mail that you saw with the pictures was misleading? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Yes. VLS: You’ve brought up a number of observations or comments, opinions on where you believe that the Chief has made misrepresentations or exaggerations. Have you ever communicated those opinions to any member of Council? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. VLS: Have you ever communicated those opinions or reported that to any member of City staff? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: Just our Battalion Chief, fellow Battalion Chief. We had some concerns about certain things. VLS: And have you ever communicated those concerns to the Chief? I know that’s a very broad question because we covered a number of points. BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I may have asked for a clarification on certain things. You know, this is what you want and, you know, that’s basically about it. He’s my boss and, you know, I – he told me what to do and I took care of it. VLS: Have you been involved in responding to any public records request? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: No. Actually, I’ve not – I think there was stuff sent out years ago or a while back about different airlines questions, but it was a broad city [illegible] anybody that had any interaction with this, but no. VLS: On the fourth point, I’m not sure we covered everything that you wanted to comment on. Specifically I was asking you whether you had any information as to whether the Chief had attempted to influence or otherwise cause the Union to undermine some City objectives. Is there anything else? - 38 - BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I can’t think of that I would be involved in or that I would have knowledge of. VLS: Understanding that my directive was from the City was to conduct an inquiry or investigation into the allegations that are raised in the Union’s October letter. Is there anything else that you would like to bring to my attention that is pertinent to that? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: I just think that we’re at a bad point now and I think the morale has never been lower and I think a lot of things that the Chief does is media driven for himself. I care about this department. I’ve been here a long time and I actually, you know, I mentioned before I’m a City resident and sometimes like, you know, it’s embarrassing to hear some of the things that are, accusations made or see how people are operating. And, I am limited with what I can say being a City employee, but it kind of upsets me that being a City resident to see how this is going on and I think we’re at a point where we won’t be able to accomplish anything more. I mean, I think we’ve pretty much burned, a lot of bridges have been burned and a lot of mistrust from certain people that approve certain things around here, so. VLS: Are you speaking of a relationship between City Council and - ? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: And the Chief. I think certain people on City Council, yeah, definitely. And, I think, you know, like I said, morale is the worst I’ve ever seen. Like I said, I care about this department and I’d like to see, you know, the circumstances get better. So, but again, it’s, you know, it’s – some of the things I see and hear are very questionable. You know, I think a lot of it is media driven for ego purposes. VLS: Anything else? BATTALION CHIEF BRUENER: That’s it. VLS: Okay. recorder. Thank you. It is now just about noon and I’m going to turn off the - 39 - RECORDED INTERVIEW OF LT. DEAN HOMAN ON 11/24/15 VLS: This morning is November 24, 2015. It’s about 8:55 and we are in the office conference room of human resource department in the City of Naples and with me is Lt. Dean Homan. And Lt. Homan, I just want to explain to you why you are here. My name is Vicki Sproat. I am an attorney with a Fort Myers law firm, named Henderson, Franklin and I’ve been retained by the City of Naples to conduct an inquiry or investigation into some allegations that were raised in an October 21, 2015 letter from Local 2174 to the City about allegations of misconduct on the part of Fire Chief Steve McInerny. You understand I am going to record this? LT. HOMAN: Yes, I do. VLS: Before getting started I just want to make several statements. City policy requires employees to be forthright, truthful, and cooperative in providing information in connection with an inquiry such as this. Do you understand that? LT. HOMAN: Yes. VLS: City policy also provides that retaliation against an employee for making a complaint, or participating in an investigation or inquiry is prohibited. Do you understand? LT. HOMAN: Okay. VLS: Do you understand that if you feel that you have been retaliated in any way because you have participated in this process, you should contact human resource department and make them aware of that. LT. HOMAN: Okay. VLS: Okay, with that in mind. I am going to just start right in. Can you tell me your full name? LT. HOMAN: Dean Homan. Do you want me to spell it? Lt. Dean Homan. VLS: And you are currently a lieutenant with the Naples Fire Department? LT. HOMAN: Yes, Fire Station 2. VLS: Fire Station 2. And what Battalion? LT. HOMAN: B Shift. VLS: And just for the ease in terms of somebody transcribing this, or listening later, if you could wait until I get, know what I am going to ask you but wait until I get the whole question out. How long have you worked for Naples Fire Department? LT. HOMAN: I am on my 25th year. Completed 24th of September. -1- VLS: Congratulations. LT. HOMAN: Thank you. VLS: And tell me about your progression through the ranks. LT. HOMAN: I started out as a fire fighter. Then was promoted, not sure the year I was promoted, to Charge EMT and then, I think it was 1997 I was promoted to Lieutenant and I have basically stayed in that position since. VLS: Do you also serve upon occasion as the acting battalion chief? LT. HOMAN: Yes I do. VLS: And that would be for B Shift. LT. HOMAN: It can be any shift but primarily. Like if there was over time, or if I had to trade, but primarily, yes it is B Shift. VLS: Who is the Battalion Chief for B Shift? LT. HOMAN: Battalion Chief Mike Nichols. VLS: Now is, within the Naples Fire Department, is Battalion Chief Nichols assigned specific administrative duties that are different than the other battalion chiefs? LT. HOMAN: Yeah, I know he takes care of the CAD system. He does a lot of those issues. He did the radios as well. I am sure there are more tasks. That’s primarily what I can think of. Those are his big ones. I’m sure he has more, but that’s what I can think of at the moment. VLS: Do you have any specific tasks that are assigned to you that are different than other lieutenants? LT. HOMAN: I had hose, but I no longer have that. I was just assigned within the last few weeks radios. VLS: When you are assigned to hose or radios, is that, what do you mean by that? Over budgeting? Overseeing? LT. HOMAN: Budgeting, overseeing, whatever needs. purchased, testing, any issues that arise. If a new hose needs to be VLS: Have you ever been assigned to other battalions besides B. LT. HOMAN: Oh I’m sure I have, I mean I don’t think I’ve ever been on. I know I was on C Shift but I don’t think I was ever on A Shift. But we’re talking quite a few years. VLS: In other words, you’ve been on B Shift for a long time. -2- LT. HOMAN: A long time, yes. VLS: Let’s get down to business. I put in front of you a letter dated October 21, 2015. Have you seen that letter? LT. HOMAN: I have seen it briefly, yes. VLS: I am not going to ask you about – you are a member of the Union? LT. HOMAN: Yes. VLS: I am not going to ask you about any specific union activities or about the letter except to ask you if you have any information concerning some of the allegations that are in the letter. That is my primary purpose for being here today. Looking at, if you read the letter, there are four bullet points in the letter. I want to focus on those with the first being that, “The Chief has misled the community and City staff. In particular, he has created the misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities.” Is that, do you believe that that allegation is correct? Or do you have information related to that allegation? LT. HOMAN: I don’t believe I have any information. Not to my knowledge. VLS: Let me ask you about some matters that have been raised by other members of the department. One was with regard to a fire boat. Do you have any reason to believe that the Chief misled the community and city staff with regard to the need for a fire boat or an improved fire boat? LT. HOMAN: I mean, I’m not sure. I know he asked for like $750,000, I know he asked a lot for a fire boat. I mean I don’t have much to do with boats at Station 1, I more on Station 2. So, I mean could we have gotten by with the lesser of the boat, I would imagine yes, but that’s about all I can tell you. VLS: That’s fine. Did, were you ever present where he made statements or representations concerning the need for a particular type of fire boat? Were you present at City Council meetings? LT. HOMAN: No, not that I can recall, no. VLS: Alright. Do you have any knowledge about representations that the Chief made with regard to the need for a new fire station 1? LT. HOMAN: As far as … VLS: Needing to replace it? LT. HOMAN: I mean, I wasn’t privy to any, though I mean I can quote just what I hear. Wanted the newer station across the street from Station 1. But as far as personally? I mean, I am not involved with that. -3- VLS: And you are not at Fire Station 1, you are at 2? LT. HOMAN: No, Station 2. VLS: Let’s go to the second bullet point in the letter. Which states that, “The Department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage and intensity.” Do you have any information that might relate to that allegation? LT. HOMAN: I know he has been kinda exaggerated to the extent of the fire, or what we encounter. I can think of one for sure is the Gordon Fire and I don’t remember exactly, he said that in an e-mail. I don’t remember exactly what was stated, but, I don’t remember exactly what the letter stated, but it really wasn’t to the extent that the letter was mentioned to be. VLS: Do you remember who the letter or the e-mail was addressed to? LT. HOMAN: I think I got a copy of it. I was, pretty sure I did. I think it went to the City Manager. But I’m not, I think it did, but – VLS: Did you respond to the Gordon River fire? LT. HOMAN: Yes I did. VLS: And were you the commanding officer at the fire? LT. HOMAN: I don’t believe I took it. I think my Battalion Chief was…I don’t. Usually the first engine takes command. I don’t recall. I was first engine, I can tell you that, but I think BC was right behind me. I was first into the structure. I can tell you that. But I don’t think I assumed command on that one but I know I was first officer in. VLS: When was the Gordon River Apartment fire? LT. HOMAN: I want to say it was a Sunday but I don’t know what date. VLS: Do you know what year? LT. HOMAN: It was either this year or last year. VLS: Can you, I don’t know anything about the Gordon River Apartments. Can you describe for me what the location of the fire and what you observed upon your arrival? LT. HOMAN: Well, we had an issue with a structure fire that I can recall. I want to say PD was on scene reaffirming that there was smoke showing. When we arrived, there was smoke. When we gained entry, there was a lot of smoke. You couldn’t see. When we did our search, we initially did fine. We went to the right. Then we went to the left, one of the guys saw in the kitchen. When we got there it was basically, well at one point we won’t say it wasn’t a pretty good fire in the kitchen. But it was about on the -4- way to put itself out. By the time we were there, and found it, it was, I want to say books or a phone book, or some box was burning on the stove. That was pretty much what was remaining. VLS: And were there any people, any occupants in the facility? LT. HOMAN: No. No inside that particular building. Inside that apartment, no. VLS: And it was confined to a single apartment? LT. HOMAN: Yes. VLS: Do you know who completed the incident report on Gordon River fire? LT. HOMAN: It was probably us. Unless – VLS: Do you know if you were the one who inputted the data? LT. HOMAN: I don’t know if I directly inputted but I’m sure I oversaw some of it. VLS: Were you or to your knowledge any member of B Shift instructed to change any of the statistics, the coding or damage assessment on that report? LT. HOMAN: I don’t recall on the report, no. VLS: Did you, were you ever asked to return to the scene of the Gordon River Apartment fire? LT. HOMAN: No. VLS: By a commissioner or something like that. LT. HOMAN: No. VLS: So you brought up the Gordon River Apartment fire as a situation where you think that the Chief may have exaggerated the fire in an e-mail or a letter to the City Manager. LT. HOMAN: I believe that was it. VLS: Do you know in what, what is your recollection of how the fire was exaggerated? LT. HOMAN: It’s been awhile since I read it. And I’m not 100% so that’s not, I want to say, heavy fire involvement, but I’m not 100% on that. VLS: Did anyone ever question you on what you had observed vs. what the Chief had reported? LT. HOMAN: I don’t recall. -5- VLS: We were talking about point #2 in the Union’s October 21, 2015 letter. Are you aware of any other instances where you believe the Chief misrepresented or exaggerated with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity? LT. HOMAN: I don’t have any. Maybe if something was put in front of me, I could say but um, I can’t really tell. I mean, I know as far as, there has been reports of from the very beginning that we had to change, like some, I can’t even be specific, calls, but I don’t remember how we labeled them but there may be a structure fire. I can’t be specific on which ones or – VLS: That’s okay, so you just have a general recollection that maybe sometime under the Chief’s command there was some change in how things were coded? LT. HOMAN: Yes. VLS: I’m not trying to put words into your mouth. LT. HOMAN: Yeah, I can’t be specific. But, yes. VLS: Did those change in coding issues, were those communicated to you directly by the Chief? LT. HOMAN: No. VLS: It came down through your battalion chief and through the chain of command? LT. HOMAN: Yes. VLS: And anything else that you have factual information on that relates to #2 on the October 21, 2015 letter? LT. HOMAN: Um, as far as calls. I know we had one at the airport. It was a fuel spill. It was a fuel overflowing, from an overfill. I don’t remember what he stated in the letter. I know he sent the letter. I don’t remember if it was two par or not. VLS: If it was what? LT. HOMAN: If it was factual or non-factual. VLS: So there may have been something with regard to a fuel overfill at the airport. LT. HOMAN: I know he sent an e-mail but I don’t remember if it was exaggerated or not. VLS: Were you copied on the e-mail? LT. HOMAN: I believe so, yes. VLS: When was that fuel overfill? -6- LT. HOMAN: I don’t know. VLS: Do you recall the year? LT. HOMAN: October. I want to say it was this year. VLS: Were there any pictures taken of that? LT. HOMAN: I believe so, yes. I am pretty sure I took those pictures, yes. VLS: And were the pictures taken at the time that the event occurred? LT. HOMAN: Well, after the fact, yeah. VLS: Is it standard practice to take photographs on scene? LT. HOMAN: I mean, try to. I wouldn’t say always, but yeah we try to. VLS: Were you specifically directed to take photographs of that scene? LT. HOMAN: That particular one, yeah I was asked to take pictures of our crews working together with the AR personnel. VLS: And from whom did that command or instruction – LT. HOMAN: Chief McInerny. VLS: Directly to you? LT. HOMAN: Hmmhmm. (affirmative) VLS: Was that anything out of the ordinary? LT. HOMAN: Um, I mean it doesn’t usually occur but he does ask me to take pictures if I’m acting BC. So I wouldn’t say it was not un-normal. I would say he calls me occasionally and asked me to take pictures of scenes. VLS: And you were the acting battalion chief at the time? LT. HOMAN: Yes. VLS: And do you believe that the photographs that you took accurately depicted the scene? LT. HOMAN: Hmmhmm. (affirmative) VLS: Yes? Okay. And what happened? Were those photographs ever published in any fashion? -7- LT. HOMAN: I don’t believe so. VLS: Where would those photographs be kept? LT. HOMAN: He might have an e-mail sent to him. It might be on a BC camera. VLS: If you were acting as the battalion chief, are you issued a special camera? LT. HOMAN: They have their own camera on the truck. VLS: Did you see any reports that were prepared related to the airport fire? Or what you just described, the fuel overfill? LT. HOMAN: You mean reports as far as? VLS: Let me start again. When you respond to a scene, someone always prepares an incident report. LT. HOMAN: Hmmhmm yeah. VLS: Do you know who prepared that one? LT. HOMAN: I am going to assume it was Lt. Howard. VLS: Did you see that incident report? LT. HOMAN: I did look at it. It’s been so long, I don’t. VLS: Do you know whether anyone was instructed to change any coding or damage estimates? LT. HOMAN: I don’t recall. VLS: Was there anything particularly unusual about how the airport fuel overfill incident was handled? LT. HOMAN: Um, no. I mean, basically it wasn’t the overfill that made it leak out. And I had then, he asked me to take pictures. Which is perfectly fine. I probably would have cancelled the engine but he wanted pictures so I had to continue so they could help clean up. But I mean, I didn’t find anything. VLS: I’m not sure I understood what you just told me. LT. HOMAN: He had called and asked me get, ya know, cause initially they respond because of a fuel spill and he asked me to get pictures with the engine helping out. So. I, went they came, I asked them to help. Not that they were needed, but I had them help so I could just get pictures but um. VLS: Who was it that came to help? -8- LT. HOMAN: It was Engine 2. VLS: Engine 2 was – they were called to the scene as a matter of course. LT. HOMAN: Yes. They had hazmat techs on the truck. VLS: And all you are saying is the Chief asked you to take pictures. LT. HOMAN: To get pictures with them, yeah. So I did that. VLS: Any other incidents or, that you have personal knowledge of that may support the second bullet point in the Union’s letter that is relating to allegations that the Chief made misrepresentations or exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity? LT. HOMAN: Not that I can think of offhand. VLS: Well we’ll move on to the third bullet point in the letter which states that, “The Chief’s misrepresentations, exaggerations and outright mendacity have created a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire-rescue personnel. As a result, the Chief has lost the ability to effectively lead the City’s firefighters.” Do you believe that there is a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire-rescue personnel. LT. HOMAN: I mean I can’t speak for everybody, so I don’t honestly know what everybody else’s opinion is. But I know some people do have that but I can’t be specific for people. VLS: And as for yourself? LT. HOMAN: Um. There’s times. VLS: Anything in particular that you want to bring to my attention? LT. HOMAN: Well we just, we’ve had a couple. One in particular was this, we had a fire with the news camera and he asked basic personnel if they had their own private camera on their helmet? And he, I was acting BC, and he asked me to, excuse me, he wanted to relay that it was department issued, not personal issued. Like it was his personal camera. So the person giving the interview, I didn’t instruct them, I just told them what the Chief referred. But tell the truth. And, the first thing the news media interviewer asked was it personal or department issued. And he told them it was personal. So, I told the Chief and he said okay and that was pretty much the end of that. VLS: Where was this particular fire? LT. HOMAN: It was off of Sea Gate Drive, Sea Shell, Sea Horse. VLS: And I need to go back because I’m not sure I totally understood what you – you were the acting battalion chief? -9- LT. HOMAN: Not of the fire. I happened to be when the media – I was at the fire but I was the next shift that was there. So that happened prior to my shift starting and we went there as well. And then, I don’t know if it was a couple days later, must have been to be acting BC the day the media wanted to do an interview. VLS: Who was the media? LT. HOMAN: It was camera, so I don’t know if it was NBC 2, I’m not sure which. VLS: So you responded to this particular fire in the Sea Gate Drive area as the second shift responding. LT. HOMAN: Correct. VLS: And then you are telling me several days later when you were the acting battalion chief the media wanted to do an interview. LT. HOMAN: Yes. VLS: And where did they come to do the interview? LT. HOMAN: Station 2. VLS: You were the responded to the interview, to answer the questions? LT. HOMAN: Uh, Chief McInerny called me and explained to me that they were going to come and we assigned Mark Hoyt to do the interview? VLS: How do you spell that? LT. HOMAN: Hoyt? Hoyt. VLS: And when the Chief called you about the interview, what did he tell you other than that they were going to be doing an interview. LT. HOMAN: He just basically wanted me to have it where the camera was on the firefighter was basically department issued and not his personal camera. VLS: Did he explain why? LT. HOMAN: If he did I don’t remember, but I don’t remember the fine details of it. VLS: Now, but in fact that camera that caught the footage was a personal camera? LT. HOMAN: Yes. VLS: Of whose? Hoyt’s? LT. HOMAN: No, Betri Henis. - 10 - VLS: What is Beatry (?) Henis’ position? LT. HOMAN: He’s C-Shift firefighter. VLS: So, when the Chief called you and told you that the media was coming to interview on that fire, and to say that it was not his personal camera, what did you do? LT. HOMAN: Well, I went to the station and just explained that, you know, what he would like but explained to tell the truth and gave, basically kind of like, avoid the question more or less. But the first question asked was, well that was the very first question that was asked. VLS: And how did Hoyt respond? LT. HOMAN: He told it was personal. VLS: Did the Chief have any communications with you after that. LT. HOMAN: I called him. I called him and explained to him what they asked of him, and they told him it was personal use and he said okay. VLS: Any other ramifications? LT. HOMAN: Nope, nothing at all. He said okay and that was the end of it. VLS: Any other situations that you have personal knowledge of that have created a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire-rescue personnel? Understanding you are not here to speak on behalf of others. LT. HOMAN: Me personally, I don’t see the Chief a whole lot honestly. I do act as BC but I still don’t usually stay in the office to often. So I really don’t have direct communications a lot with the Chief. VLS: When you say “in the office”, am I correct that the Battalion Chief’s office is located at a location different than in the fire stations. LT. HOMAN: Yes. VLS: So you would seldom be in that office? LT. HOMAN: Unless I was “Acting,” I would usually never be in that office. VLS: Alright. The fourth point in the letter is that, “The Chief has attempted to influence and otherwise cause the Union to undermine some City objectives.” LT. HOMAN: I have no – yeah that’d be Union Board and I have nothing on that. VLS: Okay. - 11 - LT. HOMAN: That I can think of anyways. VLS: Let me see if I have any other questions for you. Were you in contact with any member of the team from Public’s Safety Solutions Inc., PSSI, that came to the fire department to do a master plan? LT. HOMAN: The only contact I had was the entire shift. They sat us at a table and that’s my only communication with them was that they sat us down at a table in Fire Station 2. VLS: And what did they do when they sat you down? LT. HOMAN: They did ask questions. What those were, I don’t honestly remember. VLS: Who was present at that meeting with PSSI? Was the Chief present? LT. HOMAN: I don’t believe so, no. VLS: Was the Battalion Commander, the Battalion Chief present? LT. HOMAN: I don’t believe so. I don’t believe he was. VLS: Did, do you, did you feel you could be candid with the PSSI team members in answering any questions they might have? LT. HOMAN: The questions, I believe so, yes. VLS: Has the Chief ever told you, or anyone in your presence that the Fire Department should not put out fires so fast? LT. HOMAN: I have not personally heard that but I mean, I’ve heard, but not personally have heard that. VLS: Do you have any personal information about the recent vacancy and hire about a battalion chief or the training of it? LT. HOMAN: As far as… VLS: I mean, how, apparently Phil Pennington was hired for that position? Do you have any information about what internal candidates the Chief considered or how the process unfolded? LT. HOMAN: Not directly. I know, I mean, I know that people put in interest but I don’t have specifics. VLS: You were not among those that put in. LT. HOMAN: No I did not. - 12 - VLS: Understanding that my goal is to obtain information about the nature of the allegations in the Union’s letter, and the accuracy of those allegations, is there anything else you want to bring to my attention? LT. HOMAN: I mean not that I can think of. VLS: If something comes up that you think of later, you have my, while I’m still in the course of this inquiry or investigation, feel free to send me an e-mail or a phone call. LT. HOMAN: Okay. VLS: Thank you. And with that I am going to turn off the recorder. It is 9:25. - 13 - RECORDED INTERVIEW OF BATTALION CHIEF MIKE NICHOLS 11/30/15 VLS: Okay, we’ll get started. Today is November 30, 2015. My name is Vicki Sproat. I’m with the law firm of Henderson, Franklin, Starnes & Holt in Fort Myers. I have been retained by the City of Naples to conduct an inquiry or investigation into allegations concerning misconduct by Chief Steve McInerny that were raised in connection with a letter dated October 21, 2015 that was sent by Local 2174 to the City Manager. Have you seen that letter? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes, I have. VLS: And we are in a conference room in the Human Resources Department at City Hall and with me is Battalion Chief Mike Nichols who has been asked to give an interview in connection with this inquiry. Battalion Chief Nichols, do you understand that I’m going to record this interview? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: And before getting started with the interview, I would like to remind you of several matters, as I have all the people that I’ve been interviewing. That is that City policy requires employees to be forthright, truthful and cooperative in providing information in connection with an inquiry or investigation. Do you understand that? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: And City policy also provides that retaliation against an employee for making a complaint or participating in an inquiry or investigation involving alleged misconduct is prohibited. Do you understand that? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I understand it, yes. VLS: And do you understand that if you feel you have been retaliated against for cooperating in this inquiry, you should report that back to the Human Resources Department. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Okay. VLS: Do you feel that – has anything occurred to-date that causes you to fear retaliation in connection with this investigation? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I would like to ask a question. VLS: Sure. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: What happens with this recording? When we make this recording, where does it go? -1- VLS: Good question. It goes to my secretary who transcribes it. The recording is kept and it could be, and ultimately, I guess, would be public record. So, it wouldn’t be until the investigation is completed. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: So, at this point, it will be transcribed and those notes, the transcriptions and the documents associated are staying in your possession until you concluded your inquiry? VLS: That’s correct. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Okay. That was one of the questions that I, that I had. And, when do you expect – VLS: I mean, I may be making periodic reports to the City Manager to let them know how the investigation is proceeding, but – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: With specifics? With specifics or – VLS: No. Just with, you know, where I am and if I need additional documentation and I obtain that documentation either going through the City or if it’s an HR matter, I mean going through the City Manager’s office. For instance, if I’m asking to look at personnel files, I would contact Denise Perez. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I ask those questions because I, I received the e-mail as did everyone I believe. VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Indicating that there would be no retaliation. VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I can tell you that shortly after this came up with Council, myself, as well as the other Battalion Chiefs in the office, the Operation Battalion Chief all received an anonymous piece of paper highlighted with the fact that we could be let go, that we’re at will employees with a bad evaluation. I take my evaluations seriously. I’ve only had one since 2009. Before, they’re supposed to be annual. I got one after I entered the DROP plan. 119.071(3)(a) And, I’ll be as direct as I can. I believe that my e-mails have been gotten into. And, it’s a big deal to me. VLS: Okay. I want to ask you about each of those things. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Sure. VLS: I may have seen – you believe that you as well as the other Battalion Chiefs received that paper in your mailbox anonymously. -2- BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, there was no name attached to it. VLS: Okay. And, did that e-mail have something to do with the DROP program, but it had a paragraph highlighted? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. I’ve got a copy of it. VLS: Do you? Did you bring that with you? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. I’ve got my original, yes. VLS: If you can show that to me and as you’re looking for it, that appeared in your mailbox the day after the e-mail went out about the investigation? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t know if I came into work that next day or the day after, but it would have been within that, you know, time period. I didn’t make a special trip to come get it. VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I just came in and saw it and – VLS: And you don’t know who it was that put it in the mailbox? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: That is the one. VLS: Okay. I’m going to make a copy of that. I do have copies from other individuals, but just so we get the one that went to you. Did you have any discussions with anyone in the City of Naples about receiving what – I’m just going to put a little note on here, #1. Did you have any discussions with anyone in the City about receiving this document? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Discussed this with the other Battalion Chiefs, DiMaria and Bruener. I probably also mentioned to my lieutenants. I was blown away to have this in my basket. I’ve spent like, you know, my career here and if you were to go back and interview everybody and ask them, you know, who’s the Boy Scout in this department, I’m pretty confident my name would be the one that came up. And, so it’s something that was discussed and it was discussed about whether or not to come to Human Resources or to speak to, you know, somebody in the – above the Chief’s head as far as, you know, the fact that this was there. This – nothing official was ever done with this paperwork as far as I never personally took it anywhere cause you couldn’t prove who it came from. It just seemed kind of ironic. VLS: And tell me, and it may seem obvious to you, but tell me what about the highlighted paragraph in the paper that I’ve marked as #1 was a concern to you? -3- BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, in this letter under DROP conditions, #1 is highlighted to make that it was read in my opinion. As a condition of the DROP it reads: Employees who elect to participate in the DROP will be required to sign an agreement acknowledging their employment is at will during the DROP participation and may be terminated at the discretion of the City Manager upon receipt of an unsatisfactory performance evaluation. The decision of the City Manager is final and not subject to grievance arbitration. Participating in the DROP does not guarantee employment for a specified period of sixty months.” Obviously, I’ve gotten this form as a form of – that I had to sign in order to enter the DROP program and the fact that this was highlighted, the evaluation part of it. What bothered me was the at will and that there’s no discussion. It doesn’t take much to just write up a bad evaluation which would be a first for me. But, that’s what I took as the threat. VLS: Thank you. 119.071(3)(a) VLS: What’s the name of the executive assistant? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Kathy Carrington. VLS: And – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It just seemed odd. VLS: Okay. Do you know when it was installed? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Going back through time, I would say within a couple of weeks of all this happening. I, I didn’t record dates. VLS: You mean within a couple weeks of the Union sending the October 21 letter? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah, I believe so. VLS: Do you know, do you know anything about who installed the camera? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. It was installed by Greg Benjamin who works for Technology Services. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I was not there when it was installed, but I heard that is who installed it. VLS: And if I wanted to determine the circumstances of the installation, who would you suggest that I inquire from? -4- BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Either Greg or Mark Jackson would know why it was installed. VLS: Mark? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: He is the Director of Technology Services, Mark Jackson. VLS: Okay. Thank you. Do you know who has access to any footage that is recorded on that camera? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I presume Technology Services. That’s about – I don’t anything past that. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And if I could just take a moment to respond to one of my [illegible]. VLS: Absolutely. Why don’t we just turn this recorder off. VLS: Okay. The recorder is back on. We took a break so that Battalion Chief Nichols could respond to an important call. It is about 9:15 and I think we were discussing the camera outside the office that was installed. Do you know whether it takes audio as well? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I believe it does not take audio because I – at least I asked Greg Benjamin if it takes audio and he said no. VLS: And did he tell you anything about, upon whose orders the installation was done or why it was done? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. VLS: Is that camera, do you know whether it’s able to focus in the Battalion Chief’s office? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t know. VLS: You also mentioned that you have a concern that your e-mails may be being monitored or retrieved. Is that – did I – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Concerned would be the wrong term. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: This – to me, I received several error messages when trying to do my computer that I had never received before. And, my e-mail seemed to be sluggish and I was getting these strange messages. So I did have a conversation -5- with Greg who is an IT professional. He indicated he had never seen one of those before and without a doubt, there’s some e-mails that are missing. So. VLS: E-mails that you sent – explain for me what you mean that there’s e-mails missing. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: This is why I’m very nervous because I don’t want – you know I’ve got a large family and I don’t want to see my job lost. But, the reality of it is, I have e-mails that were never deleted that I would have kept. But I now have pictures of the e-mails that aren’t on my system that I looked for last night. I was up until one o’clock in the morning at home because I wanted to make sure that I was thorough here. This isn’t a new issue for me. I have been bothered for a long time and I’m glad I have an opportunity to speak, so. VLS: Okay. I really – did you make copies of those or can you explain, give me further detail because that’s an important issue you’re raising? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Last night, I’m trying to think about what time. It was probably ten o’clock at night or so. I was trying to open my son’s car. I was outside using a, what they call a jock lock. He had locked his keys in his car once again and I had a conversation. I called up Pete DiMaria, had a conversation about the game that was on at the time. It was the Broncos and Patriots. Well, having grown up in this area, not a Patriots’ fan. So, but I wasn’t able to see the game. I was asking him if he watched the game and, you know, we had our conversation. While I was unlocking, he said, like very specifically, Gronkowski’s flopping around on the floor. I was like, he had gotten hit and one the player’s was hurt. And so I couldn’t see – I remember the way he said it. It sounded very odd. But, anyway, the conversation was did you ever get that stuff from Vogel? Because Vogel had forwarded some stuff and he had indicated he had sent some stuff to me. And I said no, can you forward it to me. So last night about ten-thirty, eleven o’clock last night, I got the pictures of some e-mails. That I then went on line and tried to find. In a related note, my phone e-mail works, but my office e-mail doesn’t this morning at all. Everybody else around me is working fine. Tim Bruener was sitting there working on his e-mail, but mine doesn’t work. And it’s completed unrelated. I don’t want to sound like the second gunman behind the grassy knoll, kind. But, there’s e-mails that I can see my name in those e-mails in that thread and these were the things that were stuck in my crawl years ago that I had looked for and couldn’t find which I found disturbing. And when I saw the pictures, now I’d already looked for them because I remember some of these e-mails. And, as you will see, my stuff goes back, you know, not one or two years, but further. And so when I saw my name on those e-mails I was very frustrated. And I’ll be happy to send those pictures. VLS: I would like, I would like that. And you can send them. It will be a secure site to my e-mail. Those e-mails that you know you received, they would have come through on your mnichols@naplesgov.com? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Correct. -6- VLS: And when did you discover that they were missing? Last night? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, those specific ones, last night. But I have been looking for some time to find those e-mails and thought I was just searching wrong. I mean I’ve organized it, I put key words in and they weren’t there. Now I found a couple that were related, but they weren’t the ones that I was looking for. When I looked last night, I was able to go to a specific and time and they weren’t there at all. VLS: Okay. missing? What was the subject matter of those pictures or e-mails that were BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Some of those were about the, and I think most of them were – basically the Chief was trying to make sure that he was painting as damning a picture as he could about our situation here with regards to water flow, the size of structures we’re protecting and, you know, some of this stuff leading up to an ISO, Insurance Services Organization, so that he could try to paint the picture, those are my words, of a department severely lacking in its capabilities to handle structure fires. VLS: Okay. So those photographs were taken by? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, they were sent to me by Chief DiMaria last night with the indication that they had come from Vogel and that Vogel had sent them to me. So he said, “did you get the stuff Vogel sent you” and I said “no, please send them to me.” VLS: Vogel being a former Battalion Chief BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Battalion Chief, right. VLS: And did you, were you aware that he had sent a letter to the City? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I’ve heard that he sent a letter, but I haven’t seen it. VLS: You haven’t seen it? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I wanted to see it because I thought it would help me with my research for this. Because when I heard that this was going on, I took what I’d already had and started trying to find if I could find anything else to help with this. VLS: And I will look if I have that letter with me, I will – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Because when he retired, and, you know, this is, I had hoped that he was going to be very forthcoming because with him retiring, there was not going to be any retaliation, but from what I gather – and we don’t – I haven’t spoken to Tom for a long time. And, in fact, he doesn’t answer most of my text messages that I’ve ever sent, so. But, that’s typical for him. But, he was a, you know, very thorough and detailed guy so I was hoping that he was going to come in here on his exit interview and basically lay things out having [illegible]. And, I don’t know when he left. I want to say it -7- might have been 2011, 2012, somewhere in that area. Maybe, you know, actually there were some e-mails he had that are 2012, so it would have been sometime in that later part of 2012 I guess. So I was hoping that he was going to, but he was, from what I understand, didn’t anything to roll down on us. VLS: So the photographs that were missing were photographs that you think Vogel took in connection with preparing for the ISO visit? Photographs that were – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t if he took the – I can’t speculate as to why he took the pictures other than to say that perhaps he took them if this ever came to fruition or there was issues brought up in ISO thing and I don’t know if those are photos he took back then or if he’s still got the documents now. I have no idea because I literally haven’t spoken to him. I would love him to be here. Because I think he could shed – VLS: You think he would be a person I should talk to? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. He’s up in the Cleveland area. VLS: I understand. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: You know, to me he would – I can say that the three of us were, the three of us at the time, the three operational BCs at the time, were, what’s the term I want to use? Appalled at some of the things that were going on, the conversations that were taking place in there, so. VLS: In connection with the ISO rating process? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: That was a, that was a big one, yes. VLS: Okay. And the photographs, what did they, and again you’re going to look for those, but what did they depict? Do you want to make a list of anything? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. I got the pictures. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I’ll open up the pictures. VLS: Alright. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I will talk until your ears can’t take anymore. This is my one chance in a lifetime to be able to at least speak. VLS: I appreciate your candor. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And I’ll send you copies of all this stuff. This first one is dated, it is from Steven McInerny, dated April 5, 2012 at 14:23 hours. And this particular one is to William Kaufel(sp?) and that is then copied to all the Battalion Chiefs that were here at the time. -8- VLS: Who is William Kaufel? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I believe this is the company that was hired prior to the ISO and they basically did like a mock ISO rating. VLS: They were hired by the City to prepare for the ISO? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. So they would basically tell us the things that we needed to do to be prepared. So he, what he did is, is he, this first particular picture I’m looking at and it’s highlighted, and this goes back to 2012. So he says “one of the points that you might consider” and this is the Chief speaking to Kaufel, “is educating the City Council on why needed water flows are so important. It’s also worth mentioning that wood shingle roofs are also require additional water that presents a problem in areas that already have needed flow deficiencies. Some of the Council may argue that we have safe buildings that are concrete and they don’t burn.” So he goes on – he brings up the wood shingle issue. And then what I’ll do is I’ll, like I said, I’ll forward this to you, but the wood shingle thing is of interest and you’ll see in my documents why it’s of interest because of the way this thing rolls. I know how this worked. I was, I was in part, I was involved with a lot of this information with these people. So, there’s a – he goes on to tell them, and this is the same sort of stuff that happened with ISO, “I have attached updated spreadsheet concerning properties permitted since January 1, 2012 and what the available need of flows are for the property. There are approximately 29 additional single family permits in the process with some in the 20,000 to 29,000 square foot range.” Basically, this is an example of what he continued to do throughout the process with them and then with ISO. He had me take these people out where he would – I would take them out in our boat. We would drive to Port Royal. Do you need me to slow down? VLS: No. Because I am recording it. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Oh. Okay. VLS: I’m just – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Okay. We would drive in to Port Royal and, by boat, and he would point out all the larger structures. He would call them lumberyards and point out the wooden shingles and would talk about what it would take to put out if that house were fully involved. Basically highlighting any of the worst case scenarios he could. And in context, you know, in that particular moment you could say well he anybody could see that if they pulled fire flows. The point that he kept trying to hammer home was how ill-equipped we were to handle these things and combine with a conversation of trying to convince Council to give us more firefighters, more trucks, more equipment and without – it just seemed to be unscrupulous. I mean it was like – VLS: Did you believe it was misleading? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. -9- VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And why I believe it was, it was trying to lead the witness so to speak. It was trying to not let them take a global picture as much as try to point out the worst things to try to drive eventual rating down. And he spoke about that in meetings prior to having the ISO there. I mean, he sat in my office around the round table and discussed, you know, we need to get, we need this place to get a 5, you know. VLS: Meaning a 5 out of the 10 rating that ISO does? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. We were currently at 2. He was irritated that we were a 2. That we shouldn’t be a 2 and that, you know, we needed to be a 5. If we could be a 5 or worse, we can hire these people, these people. It seemed to be intent on growing the department. Because, you know, when he walked in the door, you know, he was immediately frustrated by the size, the fact that they didn’t have a bunch of assistance and stated that – he called us Mayberry. And, you know, we have a history in this City of being efficient and we can argue about whether we should be operating at these levels. I’m not saying that everything that the Chief has ever done is wrong. The guy is incredibly intelligent, I believe, and has a great recall, but he came in basically kicking us. You know, and yet, when you look at what we’ve done, our body of work for a small department has been fantastic. And, I’ve seen what his department does. He made me go over and visit his department and get a tour. And I right away got an impression that I didn’t want to have. I mean, this doesn’t seem to be following – VLS: His department? Well that’s okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: His old department. VLS: We’ll get back on track. You mean over in Ft. Lauderdale? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. That’s where I first became aware that my job was going to be always walking on eggshells. VLS: Okay. What about – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And this is – I apologize. VLS: No. What about Ft. Lauderdale. We’ll get back on track. I want to cover it all today. Anything that is pertinent to what we’re here for. What was it about your visit to Ft. Lauderdale? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I think it was, I believe it was February of, I’m guessing February. It was cool out. I remember being in a jacket initially. I went over and went with a Battalion Chief, SanAngelo. And, we went around and toured the stations and saw how they operate and what they do and how they do it. And, right away, it was, you know, people asking you if we were famous yet. You know, he’s obsessed with the media. You wait and see. And, I had more than one person tell me, you know, don’t - 10 - ever cross him, don’t go up against him, you may lose your job. disconcerting. And, that was VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And, I mean, his Battalion Chief that he sent us to, I don’t [illegible] the Battalion Chief, but he indicated, you know, that he was, he’s a great operations Chief, but he’s the worst administrator. And I found that to be spot on. And that particular one I thought was funny because it’s always a mess. At least it was always a mess until – but you know, it’s a – the concern, you know, about job security started on that situation and somewhere thereabouts because I had seen flashes of stuff that were disturbing. VLS: Okay. I want to circle back now. First, I think what led us into this discussion was my asking you – we were going over the fact that the City has a policy against retaliation for participation and you brought up several things that have concerned you so far in connection with this process. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Right. VLS: Is there anything else on that topic because I want to kind of circle back to your, to your background? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t think so. VLS: And we can always, and I urge you, I’ve given you my card. If there’s additional information you want to provide me or if you want to supplement your interview in some way, we can arrange for that. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Sure. VLS: So let’s go back to some basic background questions just for purposes of this interview. Would you state your full name and your current position with the Naples Fire & Rescue Department? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: My name is Michael David Nichols. I am a Battalion Chief with the City of Naples Fire & Rescue Department. Started here in 1992. VLS: And what Battalion are you? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I am Battalion B. VLS: And tell me about your career with the Naples Fire Department beginning in 1992 in terms of how you progressed to your current position? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, I was very excited to get the job here and we were not in a good way. We were at impasse when I was hired and there was discussion about shutting down a truck rather than get a contract signed. There was - 11 - some overtures made, from what I understood. It was literally brand new and I was looking to move down here and I was in the St. Pete area, St. Pete area at the time. But, you know, they eventually worked out a contract and it was a little bit good ole boy is what I would describe it as. VLS: Who was the Chief when you were hired in 1992? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Chief Tom Smith, who always treated me well. But, you know, there was sense at least that, you know, eventually as the old guard moved out, we would see a department that would progress a little bit. Become more progressive perhaps is the term I would look at using. VLS: When you started, what was your rank or position? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I started as a firefighter. A firefighter EMT and I, at the first opportunity to test for any position available, there was a Charge EMT position for Rescue 2 available and I tested for that and got the position. I was counseled against it – oh, you don’t want to be on Rescue 2 and as I said in my interview, eventually I said I wanted to be Chief, you know. You hear a lot of that. I’ve been in a lot of interviews. I had a small business. I’m familiar with putting on the right show. But, I wanted to walk every walk, so, I enjoyed it and I took the test for Driver Engineer when it was available and promoted on that. And, then the lieutenant’s test became available and I had decided before the lieutenant’s test, there was an opportunity to go into paramedic school or to focus on the lieutenant. And having been a small business owner, I really, and always been involved with community and whatever’s going on, and probably through my dad’s work, I decided I thought that I could do my best work for the department and for myself, as a lieutenant. VLS: When were you promoted to lieutenant? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: 1998, I think. VLS: And when did you, when were you promoted to Battalion Chief? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: 2009. VLS: And who promoted you to Battalion Chief, who was the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Chief Tackerman(sp?) VLS: And was that something that you – do you test for Battalion Chief? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Uh huh. That was the last one. VLS: What’s the nature of the testing that you do for that? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well we had oral interviews. - 12 - VLS: Okay, I’m going to turn off the recorder so you can take a call. It is about 9:40. VLS: Okay, we’ve started the recorder back up and just took a few minutes break so a phone call could be received. So you became Battalion Chief in 2009. You said you tested for the position and I just wondered what type of testing you undergo? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: That particular test was an oral interview and a scenario based. I believe there might have been a paper as well, a position paper. There was only two of us that applied and I had waited, I had held off on becoming a Battalion Chief to this point. I had opportunities before and didn’t, didn’t move forward with them. VLS: And when did Chief McInerny start? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: He started, I believe, August 2009. I know he was visiting with the shifts in late July, I believe. Or maybe it, no it was before that because the first time I met him I had volunteered off duty and was scrubbing barnacles off of an old boat so we would have something to respond to the pier for Fourth of July. So that would have been in June. So I guess the process had taken place. He hadn’t started yet, but he was coming by the station. VLS: So you had already tested for the position when he started? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. The testing, they held off on filling any positions until he came. So, I’m pretty sure the testing took place after he had started. VLS: And since you became Battalion Chief in 2009, have you been assigned to the B Battalion? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: Are you assigned any specific administrative duties in your position as Battalion Chief of B Battalion? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. I handle our CAD, Computer Aid Dispatch; our RMS, Report Management System. I’ve also been the lead, and that’s, that’s – some of that stuff is new, what was going on and some of it’s old. We have changed systems, so I’ve been the lead on those as well as the lead on our TeleStaff personnel, payroll system. I’ve also been the lead on procurement of and deployment of our fireboat. VLS: Since you’ve had administrative duties in that area, I’m going to be asking you some specific questions about that. When you physically report to work, where do you generally report? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: 355 Riverside Circle. VLS: And that is the building that houses the administrative offices? - 13 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Correct. VLS: For both the fire and police? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: And I assume that the Chief is your immediate supervisor? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: And he has offices at the Riverside address as well? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: That is correct. VLS: Who do you supervise? Can you give me an idea of what your Battalion looks like in terms of positions and names, if you can? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Sure. Baltodano. Lt. Homan, he is at Fire Station 2; Lt. VLS: Can you spell that? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: B A L T O D A N O. VLS: He’s at Fire Station? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: 1. Also at Fire Station 1 is Lt. Besely. VLS: Spelled? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: B E S E L Y. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And Station 3 is Lt. Howard. And that’s who just called a moment ago. VLS: Okay. And there’s – and what’s his first name? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: David Howard. VLS: Because there’s two Howards aren’t there in the department? lieutenant, a Mike Howard? Maybe not a BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. There’s a couple of Moores. VLS: That’s what I’m thinking of. Okay, because I mixed up some names. And who acts as Battalion Chief in your absence? - 14 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Lt. Homan. VLS: You said you have seen this letter. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: From the Local dated October 21, 2015? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Uh huh. VLS: Do you recall when you first saw it? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: The Chief forwarded it to me as an FYI. I guess after Moss had forwarded it to him. VLS: So it was soon after it was addressed and received? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: Were you surprised to see the letter? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Umm. VLS: Let me rephrase that. That wasn’t a very good question. Were you aware that the letter was coming before it was forwarded to you by the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t know if I was aware of the specifics. I knew that the Union was upset and, but I didn’t know they had actually held a meeting and done all the work they had done when it happened. VLS: And do you know what it was that precipitated the letter being sent by the Union? You know, why they were upset and chose to send it when they did? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, I would think that the straw that broke the camel’s back would have been the hiring of Chief Pennington. VLS: As the Battalion Chief of Training? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: Have you had any conversations or have you been privy to any conversations with the Chief about the letter that the Union sent on October 21? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No, we haven’t discussed it. VLS: What I would like – why don’t we take a break and when we get back from break, what I would like to do is go through the allegations in the letter and ask if you have any information that might be relevant to that allegation. - 15 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Sure. VLS: So, we’ll go off the record at about 9:45. VLS: We’re going back on the record. We took a break. It’s about five of ten and I’m here with Battalion Chief Nichols and I’ve put in front of you, the letter from the Union to Mr. Moss dated October 21. And, you will see that in that letter the Union has four enumerated points that I would like to focus on. And I’m going to be asking if you have any information that relates to any of those allegations. The first being that the Chief has misled the community and City staff. In particular, he has created the misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities. I realize that you didn’t make that allegation, but do you have anything to offer on that claim, either supporting it or denying it? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: And what – that this may be a while, but tell me what your views are? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, as we stated earlier, or as I stated earlier with my involvement with the CAD system and the records and management, he changed the way we were doing business, the way we were recording stuff. Specifically, with regards to what we call a fire and what we don’t call a fire. That led me to do research on what, what the net outcome has been. And, its – I think my research really got kicked into gear when I watched him before Council say that, I was sitting in the office and he said, I can’t tell you why fires are way up. It may be a problem with the electrical grid. Ask the BCs. They’ll tell you they haven’t seen anything like it. And I commented aloud, “you don’t want them to ask me that question.” Because he took, he took the structure fire coding from the National Fire Incident System and, in my belief, turned it on its head. And if you don’t mind, I’d like to stand up. I want to stand up and you can write down what I will demonstrate, but I will never forget him coming into the office. VLS: Okay, please do. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: He’s telling me, I think maybe Chief Vogel, there was another Chief in the office. He’s standing at the light switch, he says, “If a spark of electricity starts going from this screw on the switch plate and it starts arching there, that’s a fire because you’ve got heat, light and smoke because when it gets this plastic hot, you’re going to smell the smoke.” So he called that a structure fire. And, throughout the course of him directing us, I can’t tell you how many air handler calls we had that were classified as fires when they were overheated motors. Something doesn’t have to catch fire for there to be smell of smoke. You’re going to smell the heated insulation on electrical wires. Well, even palm fronds, you’ll have a palm frond that will be on a wire and it will arch – you’ll get wire, you’ll get an arching and sometimes it doesn’t catch on fire. It’s a wet green palm frond. Those are all labeled as vegetation fires now. And I’ve got an e-mail to show it. VLS: Okay. - 16 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And he directed us over and over and over again to put them in as fires when they, they wouldn’t have been fires in my opinion. VLS: Okay. Let’s – Oh, I don’t want to cut you off. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, in my opinion, those would have been hazardous electrical conditions. You know, if you turn off the power and you don’t do any extinguishment and there was no flame, how are you calling this a fire? On the flip side, I can tell you going back in time to be fair, there were fires that should have been labeled as fires that weren’t labeled as fires because people didn’t want to do a longer report. I believe that would be an accurate statement. So, over the course of time, what happened is you’ve got all these calls that are being categorized as fires and it makes it look like suddenly, since 2009, you know, we’re seeing a lot more fires than we were. So, that would to me, you know, when you’re telling the Council I have no idea why and you’re not being specific saying I’ve changed the way we record stuff. You know, there is an increase in fires, but we’ve also had to correct issues that, you know, none of that took place. It was simply, I can’t tell you why fires are up. Go ask the BCs he said. And I wanted to look up that, that video. VLS: Do you know when that was? Can you place a year? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I want to say it goes back to, I’m thinking, 2012. Somewhere in that area. VLS: And do you recall what the subject matter was that the Chief was addressing Council? Was it a regular meeting, a budget meeting? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t know. VLS: But, he – you’re saying that he said to Council that he didn’t know why the fires were going up and he didn’t mention anything about how the classification occurred? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Correct. VLS: I want to ask you some questions about classification of fires. Are you talking about how the department codes fires on incident reports? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: And, I’ve done a few of these interviews and I’ve been told about the National Fire Incident Reporting System. Is that the primary guideline that your industry uses? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Correct. VLS: And that goes by the name NFIRS by short? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. - 17 - VLS: What is your responsibility in the department as it relates to coding and reporting fires? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well I don’t – occasionally I’ll do the report and code it myself. Otherwise, I’ll review the code and see if it’s going to meet the standard. You know, what that a proper code for that type of call. Because you’ll have, you know, it’s a human factor. You’ve got, and there’s, you know, there’s 100 series all the way through 900 series. So there’s lots of possibilities. And so, we try to make sure that the right code goes with the right call. However, there’s, you know, 5,000 calls a year and so whether or not they’re all picking exactly the best one, I don’t go through each call to do that. However, I do oversee two people that also review and provide the State. You know, they do a, they go through and they check their report to make sure all the i’s are dotted and the t’s are crossed so to speak. All the fields are filled and if the report is valid according to the validity tools within the system. VLS: And who are those two people? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It would be Steve Kofsky and David Howard. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And they go through and they check, you know, was there, was there a narrative, did somebody miss something. And then they’ll send out, you know, notices to the personnel to have it corrected before they can run their monthly report to the State. VLS: Is the current guide for the NFIRS system, the one that was published in January 2012 or have there been updates? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t know. I think what happens with the – the updates automatically – as far as – we have drop down screens. And those are automatically updated within our RMS system. So any changes, the National system takes – VLS: Are automatically included? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: When its adopted by our State, you know. I believe it’s a state-by-state [illegible]. VLS: And when you refer to RMS, that’s Record Management System? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Uh huh. It’s currently ImageTrend and was Vision Fire before that. VLS: When did you go to ImageTrend? - 18 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I want to say it was March 25 of 14. No, no, no. It would have been, I think it’s May 1. Because we wanted to start it on – so I think it was May 1 of 14. That’s my best. VLS: Is that a better – was it an improvement in record management? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: What it – what the reason for this move was, was to develop and maintain PCRs, Patient Care Reports. Vision Fire, which was out old system, did not have PCRs. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: So this system was – VLS: More comprehensive? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Because on medical calls, we can now track medications given and so forth. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: To a certain extent. VLS: What training have you had in coding under the NFIRS system? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Just on the job training. VLS: So, let’s go kind of back to a scenario. If under your command you respond to a call, who completes the incident report and does the initial coding? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: The initial company officer on the scene. VLS: Okay. And BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Meaning lieutenant. VLS: And when is the coding physically done? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Right then. VLS: At the scene? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. I’m sorry. When they come back to the station, they’ll complete the report and that is when it is coded. VLS: And the coding system allows you to categorize the nature of the incident? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. - 19 - VLS: And after the initial officer codes the incident, what happens to the incident report? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, once it’s completed, now depending on the type of call. If it’s a structure fire call where there is multiple companies performing tasks, each of those companies complete a narrative within that report. Once all those narratives are completed and the report is in lock essentially and I will review it and then once it has been reviewed by the parties involved and the, one of the personnel that I mentioned earlier, that’s Kofsky or Howard, then that’s part of the data that’s sent to the State of Florida for reporting. Now, on a structure fire of any size, typically that information, that report isn’t done completely until after the Fire Marshall and the Chief have gone into it and either looked at it and asked for review or changes or – but it’s not typically 100% done until they have signed off in some way on it. Not necessarily a workflow on the system, which probably would be a good idea, but would be more or less, you know, Fire Marshall says, you know, I asked him, are you done with this report? Have you done your investigation? Are you satisfied [illegible] the Chief? [Illegible]. And then at that point, you know, it’s considered done. It could be – we’ll hold up on a report to be sent to the state until a fire for that month is completed. Sometimes it’s right away and sometimes it takes weeks to get completed. VLS: Depending on the nature of the incident? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Sure. VLS: So typically after the initial coding is done, there’s going to be a review of the report either by you, Kofsky or Howard? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Correct. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Or the other Battalion Chiefs on their shifts. VLS: And after the review is done by you, Kofsky, Howard or other Battalion Chiefs, what, after you’ve reviewed it, do you sign off on it? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No, if I don’t have to unlock it, it still shows as locked. And so there wasn’t, I don’t think there’s a mechanism. It might show that I’ve viewed it or it will show that I’ve logged into the system, but there isn’t a checkmark that says Nichols has approved. VLS: Does the ImageTrend system create an audit trail? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: So, in that audit trail, one could see the progress of that report up to the time it’s submitted to the State? - 20 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I’ve looked at the audit trail and what it seems to do is show, you know, if you’ve been into a report and just looked at it, the only thing it’s going to show is that you’ve logged into the system. I don’t think that it will show what work you did, at least on a quick review of the audit trail. I haven’t been able to find that. VLS: Does the audit trail show who logged into the system? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. You can see, you know, when the last time is that anyone logged into the system. VLS: But can you identify who it was that logged into the system? In other words, can you tell – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Each user has a unique sign in. When they sign into ImageTrend it notes that they’ve signed into ImageTrend. VLS: So someone who is familiar with ImageTrend could tell Battalion Chief DiMaria or Chief McInerny logged into the system on this report at this time? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No, I don’t think so. I think what it does is it will – as far as the general login, there’s an audit trail. When you go to audit trail, it shows you when the last time as logged in. When you look at the report, it’ll show you the last time somebody made changes in the report. It doesn’t say what changes they made. But, it’ll record that those changes were made and saved. Because once you’ve made a change and save it, your name now becomes the last person having touched that report. VLS: Are those audit trails preserved on ImageTrend back to the time the system was adopted? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I believe so, yes. VLS: You stated earlier that under Chief McInerny, there has been a change in the reporting or coding of fires under NFIRS, or of incidents? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Specifically on fire related calls. VLS: So we’re not talking about rescue? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: We’re not talking about rescues. We’re talking about fires or hazardous condition type calls. Those areas, I think would be, where the effect has been, has been when talking about a fire, if you’re coding something as a fire, it’s not something else, so. And that – VLS: What are the numbers that are used in coding a fire? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: 100 series. - 21 - VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And I believe the one that’s most affected by that would be the 400 series. I think those are hazardous conditions. VLS: So you’re saying under the Chief what may have previously coded as a 400 series is more likely to be coded as a 100 series? I’m not trying to put words in your mouth. I’m trying to understand it. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well then, the word more likely – what I’m saying is that fires that more than – the questionable calls that I’m referring to are most likely would have been recorded as a hazardous condition call and not a fire call, so. VLS: How was it communicated that, well first of all, let make sure I understand. Are you saying that the Chief did in some way implement or direct a change in how Naples Fire Department coded events? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: How was that communicated or directed to the fire department? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Through the Battalion Chiefs. He met with us in the office, the Battalion Chiefs, and advised that, you know, these types of calls should not be recorded as hazardous calls. They should recorded as structure fire calls or building fire calls. He questioned reports when he would see them that would be put in as electrical hazard. He would ask about the call and say that needs to be changed to this type of fire call. Sometimes it’s in person, sometimes it’s on a text. VLS: Okay, let’s go back to is there a distinct time when you recall a meeting with the Battalion Chiefs where there was a discussion initiated by the Chief about change in fire coding? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah, it was early on because Chief Vogel was here for that and, you know, it became almost, I don’t want to use the word joke, but, you know, you would say you had this call and it’s a building fire, you know, and I know I had those conversations with Chief Vogel, so I know it goes back to 2010. VLS: Did you ever receive any communications in writing from the Chief that reference or incorporate this change in how things are coded? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: What I have, and I can find it for you, I’ve got text messages that show that needs to be where he is directing, in one particular case, an Acting Battalion Chief to code something as a fire call when he’s indicating there was no flame or smoke, you know, no visible smoke. And most of the times, you know, the changes that initially were done were based on the conversations that we had in the BCs’ office and meetings with the BCs and then post meeting would be confirming that’s being recorded as I, you know, so it wasn’t like a memorandum that came out that said do this. It was – that’s why I stood up earlier and gave you that, you know, I can’t, I - 22 - can’t tell you anything other than I’m relaying what I saw and what I heard. I wish I could give you a memorandum that says all hazardous conditions or structures, that’s not what took place. What took place was, I believe, a manipulation of the code to an extreme extent. That’s why it bothered me. VLS: Did the Chief ever indicate the rationale or motive behind the implementation of the changes in coding? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, he’s always made it clear we need more fires. VLS: Has he put it in those words? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. Burn something tonight. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: You know, most of that is, you know, let me be very clear, you know. He would say it and often it would be in a joking manner. You know, hope you get the big one, you know, and, it’s not unusual I don’t think for that type of a conversation to take place when you’ve been doing this for a long time. But what that presumes is that the person on the other side doesn’t really care about what’s happening. There’s still a few of us that got into this for reasons, for helping. And, I don’t want to sound like, you know, I’m trying to play an angel. I’m – they ask me to speak at these functions because I’m funny. And I’ll say things that are sarcastic [illegible]. So I understand some of those things. But it was, without a doubt, you know, over the top because it blossomed into other conversations that – VLS: How would you categorize – how would you describe what constitutes a fire under the 100 series in NFIRS coding? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, you need to have flame present or obvious that flame had been present. That means charring, that means some sort of, you know, smoke productivity so that it goes in an area that you couldn’t see specifically at that moment that you’re getting the kind of productivity that – of smoke that it would take something burning to do. Rather than just, let’s say, a ballast in a light that’s overheating and causing an odor that you don’t see or maybe a slight haze. And, so, I mean I’m [illegible]. VLS: That’s one criteria. Any other criteria that is important to categorize something as a fire under NFIRS? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well I, it’s an outstanding question. Looks like trying to state the obvious [illegible]. What I’m looking for is evidence of something that was either freely burning or something that was, you know. For example, you can have an overheated, and I’m using an example that I’ve never tried to define this as such. Surprising given the business I’m in. But, let’s say an electrical motor is overheating. That motor can catch fire. You have insulation in there that can become hot enough to create enough smoke and heat to create an ignition source and to burn and you can - 23 - shut off the electricity and it goes out. However, it did burn. So that would be a fire. You can either extinguish it with water or an extinguisher. But you’ve got charring and smoke productivity where that same motor could have been detected as overheating earlier by just the smell. And you get in there and you can see where the wires have gotten hot because there’s some discoloration. But a white wire is just off white now because it’s heated and it has damaged the insulation. That’s what you’re smelling is insulation. So, but what’s happening was when you get those calls where you would have that insulation damaged, but no evidence of any charring whatsoever, and merely the smell of smoke and you were directed, you know, well that needs to be a building fire. You had heat, you had smoke, you know, the smell of smoke and where there’s smoke, there’s fire. Right? That’s the question and it was put in that manner. VLS: Where there’s smoke, there’s fire? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. VLS: Do you think the explanation you’ve given of what constitutes a fire for coding purposes under NFIRS is generally accepted in the fire industry? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well you’re asking me to speak on something I would say, without being able to quote anything in the NFIRS, because, you know, he had quoted some stuff to say, well, it was in a building, so it’s a building fire. So, I would say that generally accepted by my peers, yes. But, it’s been quite some time since I’ve read the NFIRS. I’ll [illegible]. VLS: You said you do have some text messages directing Acting Battalion Chiefs to code something as a fire call. Do you have those with you or is that something you can provide? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. I made copies. This is from our first Smart phone that we got. This, I think, is evidence to how long I’ve been bothered by this. This is a from a phone, we’ve had an iPhone 4, a 5 and we currently have a 6. So prior to the 4, we had an HTC phone. So these text messages, look like they go back to 2011. Looks like this was one – VLS: And these are copies you’ve made for me? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I – no. These are copies that I made before we – when we were getting rid of this phone and ordering my phone, I was worried that some of these text messages were going to be lost and I didn’t know what to do with this stuff. VLS: So you preserved them or printed them because of – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: My concern. VLS: Your concern at the time? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Absolutely. - 24 - VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: But the only, I mean, and I’ll beat you to the punch if you’re going to ask the question, “Why didn’t you say something?” Five kids and a job that’s at will. VLS: Alright. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And so this is, this doesn’t capture, this only captures this one phone and a certain time period. It doesn’t capture obviously what it doesn’t have. VLS: So the phone that this captures would be the one that is assigned to you as a Battalion Chief? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. Each Battalion Chief. This phone that has rang several times is shared by each Battalion Chief. So, what you have here are Acting Battalion Chiefs and Battalion Chiefs that were using this phone and that communicated with the Chief. So, what I did, I decided to pull these up and print these out and save them. And, they have been in my closet now for years in this envelope. And then I went through and tried to, you know, then put some sticky notes on them and what I’ll do is I can rifle through real quick and find – VLS: Okay. I think what I would like to do is make a copy of those documents that you brought in the envelope. I realize you didn’t make those extras for me. So, I will, we will, I will get copies before we leave here and will mark those as #2. Okay, you’ve handed me a portion of the exhibit #2 which is page 10 or 178. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Correct. This particular one, it indicates the writer wrote, “Chief had a structure fire call this morning. Was just an overheated surge protector. No fire or damage. Steve A.” So that would be Steve Allen who worked as an Acting Battalion Chief. So they called it in as a structure fire, we responded as a structure fire, but when he got there it was just an overheated surge protector. The Chief responds to him here, “As a follow up, please make the fire alarm at the Marriott gets recorded as a fire and not a smoke scare.” This is one of those things, one of those codes that you would use say it was a smoke scare. We’ve had, you know, calls where chillers for air conditioners, in certain times of the year, will produce a lot of vapor in the air and people will call it in as a structure fire and then it gets coded as a smoke scare. This is a text example. Here’s a call where he says, “An overheated surge protector, no fire or damage.” And then he’s being told to record it as a fire and not smoke scare. So, this is the kind of thing that, you know, early on, and this one, that text is dated 2011, looks like May 24. VLS: Okay, thank you. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And I’ll leave these out because there may be some other stuff in there. - 25 - VLS: Okay, and I, rather than go through all of those pages now, I will go through them and if we, or if there’s anything else you want to point out in particular, but I will look through them and we can follow up in another interview. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. When we come up whatever, there’s one here. VLS: Okay. Alright. So you, you kept this, well we’re going to – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, I VLS: Go ahead. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I mentioned the palm frond. VLS: Can you site to what page you’re – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: This is page 129 of 178. VLS: Thank you. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And it looks like Adam, Adam Nadelman, would have been working. And he writes to Adam, “Please make sure that FPL pole goes down as a fire incident report.” So I don’t know if this one is actually one of those palm frond calls, but I’m pretty sure that I have a palm frond call in here that, you know, where he is talking about, you know, record that palm frond as a vegetation fire. VLS: How would the Chief know how things are, I mean, when does he become involved in the process of reviewing the incident reports, if you know? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, he’ll get, you know, text messages about the calls, you know. So some of those are notifications that I help set up through our dispatch center. And so when a call comes in, the dispatch center is working off the information they have. And, when he has that, then at that point he’ll call you up and. Can we, I need to answer a text message. VLS: Okay. Very good. We’re going to go off and turn the recorder off. VLS: We’re going to go back on the record. It’s about 10:28. I forget, we were talking about how and when the Chief would become involved in seeing an incident report. Or is it even before the incident report? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It’s well before the incident report because you’ll – we’ll receive a call and it he knows about the call, if it sounds like something that could be something, he’ll call you are start texting, you know. So, I’ve been arriving on scene getting phone calls asking about the scene and I’m trying to run the incident. And, I’m like, Chief, I haven’t even been here long enough to tell you what’s going on. Because he’ll call right away while you’re in response mode or start texting. - 26 - VLS: So, just so I can understand in context, the text that you showed me that related to an incident on May 24, 2011, that would have been a text that would have come in prior to the incident report being locked in or even created? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It could be. I – that Steve Allen was on another shift. So, he is simply letting the Chief know what took place. The Chief is telling him how he wants it recorded and as far as the time, I don’t know if the report had been started or if they were just finishing up or if it was after the fact, but even if it had been locked, there would have been no problem for them to have changed it, you know. So it hadn’t been submitted to the State or [illegible]. VLS: On an incident report, is there also a narrative portion? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: And who records the narrative? It think you may have already touched on this. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes, I did. VLS: But I want to understand. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: So in some cases it would be the lieutenant and some cases it would be their driver or their firefighter. In some cases it would be everyone, depending on the type of call it was. If it was a large fire, you tend to get – VLS: Okay. Have you, or to your knowledge, any other member of the department ever been asked by the Chief to change a narrative? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I’m thinking about – we’ve had to change, you know, the codes. We’ve had to change dollar loss amounts. There may have been editing issues, you know. But I don’t remember any wholesale, wholesale changes to narratives. I don’t recall any of those. VLS: Let’s go back to the process of what you do in your capacity having administrative duties over the reporting system. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Maybe I can summarize it for you. VLS: Please do. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Today has taken place. We’ve had three calls today so far. Personnel are filling out those reports or they’re completed. As far as they are concerned, they’re done with the report. At some point today, hopefully, I go back and review them. On typical rescue calls, I would say that I don’t get through and see every one of them. The days just aren’t set up because of the other stuff that has been issued to us. You know, when the guys at the stations are done with their day from running calls after they’ve eaten dinner, they’re all done for the day. But with the new CAD systems, I mean, there has been non-stop work and so I long for the days when I was at - 27 - the fire station. However, you know, what will happen is that when I review the call and I see a narrative I don’t like or a spelling issue, sometimes I’ll make a phone call and say fix this, sometimes I’ll fix it myself and sometimes it’s simply a matter of punctuation or something in the narrative. Or I’ll have a question about a code or perhaps a, there’s other codes. There’s obviously a lot of codes in there. Did you extinguish it? You know, did you set up incident command? There’s a lot of, you know, it will ask you what you did first, what did you second. So there’s a few basic codes that they try to gather that information to put down a picture of what took place. So, I’ll review the report. Typically what will happen is I’ll see right away the report showing 100%. That means all fields are filled. But there are some fields that aren’t required so it won’t affect the validity and those would be like some of the boat calls [illegible] other information we’ll gather about districts and stuff. So, I try to look, and the other BCs try to look to see that those things have been done. So, as far as a day-to-day administration of [illegible], it doesn’t require me to do something that is specific to an administrator that has the time on the system that I may have. So, at that point, it’s a run of the mill kind of thing. Where I then get involved, is making sure, you know, updates, problems, issues with the system, you know, I’ll be the direct link to ImageTrend. I, you know, oversee that’s in the implementation of it, register rights for new employees, remove right from old employees. Those kinds of things. And then I’ll make sure that our personnel that are working on the system, we have two that work on the NFIRS side of things that I’ve mentioned before, actually several times, and that’s Kofsky and Howard, they do, they check these reports and every several weeks they’ll do the reports and send out notification to personnel and try to make repairs and they’ll communicate that with all of these. And then they’ll provide the monthly documentation that has been sent to the State. This is an ancillary duty for Dave Howard. Kofsky does it because he got involved with the CAD/RMS team, but he is now on our technical rescue team. But he still does this because of his ability to know the system and help with implementation and set up. And then we have one other person, Mike Murphy, who was actually on the team. However, he doesn’t get involved with the NFIRS side of things. He simply does Q&A checks of medical reports. VLS: Where do the monthly documents go? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: The State of Florida, the State Fire Marshall’s Office. It’s sent as a, like a data. VLS: So that’s a compilation of – each report separately or is it a compilation of all of the data? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It’s a compilation of all the data that the NFIRS system produces so it won’t have some of the peripheral stuff that we have added. VLS: Have you ever been directed by the Chief to change any coding or reports after you have completed a review? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. - 28 - VLS: Tell me circumstances under which that would occur or an example. What type of things have you been directed to change? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: In the beginning, it was changing calls that were those hazardous condition calls to reflect building fire calls. After that message was made very clear, we didn’t have – those issues where we had to go back to it. After that, the biggest issue that I had to deal with was the changing of property loss dollar amounts. And sometimes those were made, you know, well after the State had been given the data. And, in some cases, and I haven’t gone back to look, but I know that I made because I was uncomfortable with some of them, so when I added those changes to dollar values, I began writing at the bottom of the narrative, dollar loss increased per direction by Chief McInerny. Something to that effect. I put a note in the narrative to say yes, I’ve been in that report and here’s what I did with that report, you know. Because I didn’t, you know, and I, you know, but I don’t know that those have been updated to the State because it would come back a month later and say, well, I want to change that to this. And, it became – sometimes a moving target. Because I’ll run my reports, you know – I put together data, Excel documents for the Chief and then he’ll say, a year later, I want to run another report. And I’ll run a report and those numbers don’t match his report and then he wants to know why those numbers don’t match his report and I’ve gotta go back and try to figure out why it doesn’t match and often times it’s because he’s changed, he’s changed the numbers in there. VLS: Is he able to make the changes directly? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Restate the question please? VLS: Is the Chief able to make changes in the system directly? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: And does the audit trail permit a person who knows the system to identify when the chief has made a change? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: If he’s made a change to a specific report, it would have his name on there, but I will tell you that he typically doesn’t do anything other than direct. And, I know that he can get into the system and check the system, but for whatever reason, he doesn’t seem to go in and make any changes to reports. VLS: So both changes are made through the chain of command, through the Battalion Chief or to an Acting Battalion Chief. Is that what you are saying? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And it’s probably due to familiarity with the reporting system. While he can view it, I don’t know that he knows what he has to click on to save or do any of that stuff. I don’t know that for a fact. I can just tell you that it is – - 29 - that’s why I made those notes when I did it because it felt odd to be changing some of those reports. VLS: Okay, what happens if you’ve submitted a monthly report and then the Chief has directed you to change something, do you do something with the State to send in a revision or modification? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: He, not too long ago, came forward with a large document, or not large document, but a piece of paper, that I made a copy of so I could communicate to make sure that these were done and, you know, he had – DiMaria changed a bunch of numbers on it. And those reports are already been filed, in many cases, with those monthly reports. So, I had, I believe it was Steve Kofsky, contact the State to ask them, you know, what do we do with these reports. Because this wasn’t something we ever did before. And, you know, they simply said you could run another download and update whatever you want to do with those reports, but that they should have the most recent report up there, so, if it’s been changed, let us know it’s been changed by just running one of these batch files or whatever it’s called so that – and then forward that to State, we’ll upload it and it will override, I guess, their system so they that they have the most current. VLS: When did that large document, when was that, when did that surface? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: That has been in the last month or two, somewhat, somewhere, a month and half ago or something. Let me see if it has a date on it. Printed on 9/6/2015. Here’s the paperwork that I have on it. And, so that was printed on that date. I don’t know what, if that’s also the same date that DiMaria – okay, so you’ve got a copy of it. VLS: Well, I want to make sure. What I would prefer to do, I received this from a different source, I’d like to maybe mark this as #3, but it does appear that it was printed on the same date, 9/6/2015. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Right. VLS: So, tell me how you received exhibit #3? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Battalion Chief DiMaria advised me that and the Chief had sat down [illegible] and said I need to change these reports. He came in with a piece of paper and so I presume, this is an assumption on my part, that this particular document was compiled by the Chief, that he had put this together, and then he came in and – VLS: Gave it to Battalion Chief DiMaria? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And had him – and he sat in there while he did all, whatever updates he did. So then I sent – so I have conversations, subsequent conversations with Kofsky and said, can you check to see which of these have been opened up. Because I don’t’ know – I mean I see checkmarks, but I don’t see anything - 30 - written so I said, check to see which of these look like they’ve been opened and if they’ve been opened and resaved, put together a document for the State so that they can have the updated information. VLS: Do you know whether he did that? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I’m pretty sure he did, yes. VLS: So, can you – in looking at exhibit #3, do you recognize the handwriting on that? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. I don’t know. VLS: Okay. So you don’t know if that is the Chiefs or if it’s DiMaria in making the changes in response to what the Chief told him? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No, I don’t know. I just want to make sure that – VLS: Okay. Was this – have you ever had a large batch of changes such as the one that’s reflected in Exh. 3? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. VLS: That has come through? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: There have been changes, but never with – for this kind of [illegible]. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And because, my recollection, I don’t know whether or not the changes were made prior to being given to the State or after. VLS: Do you make reports to any other source besides the State? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. VLS: Do you create any reports that the Chief submits to the City? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: Is that different from what you prepare for the State? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. The State is a standardized from NFIRS. In other words, it is everyone getting that information from all the different departments, they’re getting the same format so that it fits in their system. When I prepare, much of - 31 - my work has been, through the years, preparing either Excel documents categorizing calls and dollar loss or I prepare quarterly reports which would be a breakdown of the number of calls that we’ve had and how they’re categorized with dollar loss, you know, number of patients and so forth. VLS: Now what you prepare for the City, does that include fire calls as well as rescue calls? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Everything. VLS: What you do for the State though is just fire? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, what I do for the State is just the national fire reporting. So that’s all calls. So it’s all rescue calls but it doesn’t include the patient care reports that – so it’s just basic. Every report we do in our RMS system, the State gets a copy of. VLS: Have you ever been directed or instructed by the Chief to make any changes to coding on rescue calls? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. Well, I will tell you there’s one that sticks in my crawl right now. It happened when I was working on, I’m pretty sure I was working a trade on C shift, and we had a lightning strike on a boat. We have a party boat that goes out, it’s a catamaran that goes out of Naples dock. And, we got a report that someone was struck by lightning on the boat. So we respond with two apparatus. One gets on the fireboat and responds to the boat; we go to a staging area close to get the patient. And, in fact, witnesses say lightning struck the mast of the boat that the storm had been building. And I had watched the storm and communicated to my lieutenants that day, it’s going to be a pretty good size storm coming in and just be aware of it. Not that it was going to change anything, but be careful. So lightning strikes the boat. Witnesses indicated that he had, you know, gotten – his hand was near the wheel of the boat and that the electricity from that strike travelled through the steering wheel and hit his hand, knocked him down. And so he was put on the boat and brought over and treated and taken to the hospital. The only indication, the guy was conscious, I was able to speak with him, he seemed to be in good spirits. I even made a joke about it. Looks like it affected your hair loss. I felt I could make it, seeming as how I don’t have a lot hair myself. The only evidence was that he had what looked to be a slight burn mark on his hand. He requested DiMaria to change that report from a lightning strike or a rescue call to a boat fire call. And I’ve got it here. VLS: Okay, thank you. But you were there? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I was there at the call. And it’s put in there as a water vehicle fire, it was what was requested that we do. And even in the patient narrative that was taken which he states “I was struck by lightning.” There was no fire. There was no fire on that boat. VLS: And you’re saying the Chief instructed DiMaria to change it? - 32 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: To change it to a boat fire call. The only evidence, and we had two things. We had 16 people on the boat that all knew they were struck by lightning there, that, you know, as far the boat. His electronics, the word was his electronics weren’t working, his motor wasn’t working, the wiring was, I guess, effected, but there was nothing else. There was no smell of anything, no reports of any smoke and – VLS: What’s the date of that? You’ve got the report there and I am going to mark that as #4. What’s the date of that? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And this is where he – and he says the motor and wiring were burnt. So he’s calling it a water vessel fire. But, this is that term again. Nothing was, you know. Is there such a thing as a lightning strike anymore or is it always going to be fire? Why do we have a code for lightning strike? Anyway, the date of this report was 8/15/2015. VLS: Okay. Very recent. And how did you learn that the Chief had instructed DiMaria to change the coding on this? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t know if I can give you this last thing. I can give you the report, but this right here is just the patient stuff. I don’t think I’m allowed to give you the pre-hospital stuff. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Just for his privacy. VLS: Alright. So you’re going to remove that. That’s fine. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I’ll remove the patient care report because of HIPAA. VLS: Right. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Make sure I’m compliant here. VLS: So what would have been actually changed on document #4? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Simply the initial incident type code which is what this conversation on the code changing has been primarily about. VLS: And, DiMaria – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: There was no conversation with me whatsoever. I was the one that was running the scene. I had direct contact with the personnel. And so it became a situation where he just told Pete to change it to a water vessel fire and, you know, no discussion, no argument, no, and, you know, I just, you know, it’s become semantics. It’s an argument over whether it was or wasn’t, but it’s an example of the kind of thing that I think misrepresents. Because if you’re going to do that, you needed - 33 - to say in the beginning, we have had a change in the way that we’re coding things. I believe things were coded improperly, but not to say fires are on the increase. And that’s, you know, not what the purpose is. VLS: Understood. I think we were also talking about the types of reports that you produce internally for the City. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: Do those use the – do you use the same data? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: I know it’s reported in a didn’t fashion? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I use the data that we create or collect. Some of the data comes directly from our computer dispatch system that just dumps directly into it. And then some then we add as, you know, we assess the scene. Then I’ll make queries onto that data. It tends to be a little more time consuming because it doesn’t’ have like a dashboard where you can run it simple. You have to search for the data. But I would search for the data, the types of calls or the period of time and then produce the fields required to meet the question that he is asking. VLS: So the reports that the Excel sheets and the reports that you prepare internally would reflect the same type of coding that goes to NFIRS? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Correct. It’s all off NFIRS. I don’t do a whole lot of – there’s not much to code from the patient care report side of them which is in a NFIRS report. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Here’s another document by the way that I was looking for earlier. This is an e-mail that I sent to my personnel and I sent it to my guys that are checking reports so they could be aware of the fact that the Chief had sent out an e-mail. Here’s the form. Let me see the date. 2015, May 18. So basically he sent us this. This is like out of a NFIRS book and it was like a reminder. VLS: We’ll mark this as #5. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Okay. This was like a reminder of this is what I want, and, I’m like, you know, well this is what, I don’t know if that’s from him or from NFIRS, but it, and it was associated with a palm frond call where you had, you know, make sure they get recorded as electrical, or as a vegetation fire. You know, if it catches fire, then it’s a vegetation fire. But if doesn’t catch fire, to me it’s not a fire. VLS: Okay, so #5, this – - 34 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: This too should be attached. VLS: They are attached. Okay, we’ll put it together. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: So I wanted the guys who were checking my NFIRS reports to be aware of the fact that if they get, you know, electrical calls for palm fronds to see what they would do about that. And then you’re asking about the reports? VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t think I printed it for you. I can get a copy of it to you. I can send you quarterly reports that would be an example of what I prepare and that’s where I have to take the spreadsheet, like I’ll put the dates in to the system of what I’m looking to find and I’ll just ask for all reports. And then I’ll simply correlate them into their specific categories and then I’ll take those numbers off of an Excel spreadsheet and put it into the quarterly report. VLS: Okay, if you could send me an example of that so I can understand that. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Okay. And this goes to – I mean, I’ll send you one that has an asterisk on it because, and there’s background data because when you get reports, I had asked several times for us to adapt our quarterly reports. Because, before I came to this office, the quarterly reports that they were producing were very weak and they didn’t really show the full picture. It was whatever the system, the VisionAir system, came up with. And it was a very thin piece of paper that within five seconds, you could say okay you had this many calls. Great. You know, I mean, there just wasn’t anything to it. I said – I felt like that wasn’t enough information for anybody to view to see what it is we’ve been doing all [illegible]. And, so, so put together a bigger report, but it doesn’t contain all the potential fields so when I do my research, there are areas, like for example, the 200 series calls. In NFIRS are explosions. If you look at our quarterly reports, there’s no explosions anywhere out there. So, it’s a NFIRS category, but I have to record it. When I’m doing that, I have to find the closest. I have to look at it and say okay, well is it going to be a fire call or is it going to be a – . And, in one particular case, we had a big fire that, we had a fire at a parking garage and it had caught a bunch of cars on fire. And in this particular call, he decided that each separate car would be a separate fire essentially. Now you can – we talked to the State. There was no major issue with recording each car fire as a – VLS: Where was that fire just -? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I want to say around the 1900 block of Gulf Shore. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: But the reason it came to my mind is because of the quarterly reports. That caused a lot of consternation because we were showing 12 vehicle fires that month. And it was actually, they were all in the garages that were burned. And so every time I do a report that includes that, it doesn’t jive with, you know, - 35 - is it 12 vehicles fires, is it one fire, you know. It just, it seemed to me an effort to make more calls. VLS: So who – so when you did the quarterly report, you put an asterisk? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. A little asterisk by the number of vehicles fires in this particular quarterly report, but then that effects the year, and that, you know, and any subsequent, you know, when we put several years stacked up against each other to show, you know, what the trends have been or something like that, it does create a little bit of a wrinkle there. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Not much of anything other than just to say that it’s a, it can be, you know, a little bit difficult to have the numbers add up. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I just remembered that quarterly report. I’ll get you copies. I’ll get you a copy of that one and others just so you have an example of what it is that I do [illegible]. VLS: Okay. Who directed that the – each of the vehicles be counted as a separate incident? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Chief, Chief McInerny. VLS: To whom did he direct that? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Because of the size of the fire and the nature of this, it was a more difficult report to complete. So, I think that was directed to me even though it wasn’t my fire. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: So I had to get in and develop the exposure then recorded them as separate fires. VLS: Did you disagree with the Chief’s direction? I don’t mean disagree with him, but did you disagree that they each be categorized as a separate fire? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I would say that, that, you know, and this goes back to, you know, blue versus green is your favorite color. I don’t think that, I think based on everything else in total, I disagree because I feel like it was done to inflate numbers. And, not necessarily done to make sure we’re specific. Like, if I list it as a garage fire and there’s this much dollars in damage and there was this many cars involved, I think I can probably show that that would be an appropriate way to do it, rather than saying there was 12 car fires all at the same incident number. - 36 - VLS: And was there photographs taken of that fire? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: Do you generally photograph every incident? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Any incident of size, yes. That’s – the text messages that were going on here today were text messages to forward pictures to the Chief of the nose gear collapsed on [illegible] air pump. In this particular case, the State Fire Marshall’s Office was involved so there’s lots of pictures [illegible]. Pretty good size fire. VLS: I’m going to hand you a document now and I didn’t look though here to see if you were copied on this particular – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: There’s been a bunch of – VLS: Let me, let me just ask you this. I don’t even know if this e-mail corresponds to. Let me just show you a single document that says at the top, City of Naples Structure Fire Incidents for 2013. It’s a single page document. Have you seen that before? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: May I look through mine? VLS: Of course. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It was several e-mails that involved Councilman Finlay. VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And I don’t know if this is the same one or not. VLS: And I may have an incomplete document. Did Councilmember Finlay request some statistics? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. He’s asked for lots of numbers in the past. VLS: And was that through a public records request or? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I think initially they might have been just regular requests, like an e-mail, could I get information. And I think there’s been other ones that were official public records requests. VLS: And were you involved in responding or gathering documents to respond to his request? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: And did you, have you brought some of those with you today? - 37 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. VLS: His requests and the response? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. I never got any – I don’t think – I think I saw only some requests and they were like e-mail threads. And then as far as actually bringing the documents that I prepared for him, I don’t know if they’re actually – I’d have to look through and see my sent stuff to see what I was responding to. Because the documents wouldn’t have been labeled for, in other words, I wouldn’t have titled the document Finlay requests. VLS: Right. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Which actually would have made sense. VLS: What type of reports or information did you provide in response to either an email from Finlay or a public records request? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Typically, it would be, you know, like the – how many structure fire calls were there in a given period [illegible] a copy of those structure fire calls. And/or it would be, what was another one I saw? I’m looking through my stuff. It was number of boat calls, you know. It was one document I tried to print the first page of it this morning, but it wouldn’t print and it was a request for how many calls a fireboat could have pumped water at a structure fire. So I had to go back to 1999, print every fire we had, print Excel sheet, then I had to go by every address and say could we have reached it with “x” number fee of those. And so, that took a while. I don’t know if that was – it may have not been for Finlay but it was to try to suggest that we could, you know, provide extra water with a boat, you know, which – VLS: Okay. When – just using Finlay as an example, did those e-mails come directly to you or do they come through the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I think they come through the Chief. I think I’ve only received one direct e-mail, maybe a couple ever. I know I felt uncomfortable getting emails from the Councilmembers. VLS: Yes. So, when – does the Chief give you any type of direction or instruction as to how you are to respond when you get a request? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. I, I – VLS: And that’s a very general question. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It’s a very general question and my general answer is that I would be directed to answer this part of the question that I, you know, I wasn’t able to – I don’t know why this is so uncomfortable, but I felt like I was always hamstrung. That I wasn’t allowed to answer the question entirely. That he was going parse the information as he saw fit. - 38 - VLS: Do you have any – that’s in the nature of a conclusion? specific example of that? Do you have any BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: The conversation is “well Chief, I can do this” and he says “no, no, we’re just going to give them this.” VLS: I mean can you – do you recall what was being requested? Can you give any particular example of that? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, the Finlay request started, you know, quite a few years ago and there was a lot in the beginning of this, the dialogue that seemed to be going back and forth. I would love to go back and look. VLS: Sure. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And see, because I want to make sure you go everything that I know. VLS: Yeah, if you just make a note of that. And like I say, we can, we can follow up in a perhaps a phone interview if explanation, is, you know, if documents aren’t – don’t answer things. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: What I’m going to look for is whatever he sent me that I responded back that I can find and what I can also do is look at my Excel documents and see if any of that will jog, you know, when I saved it, it might help me direct. It’s not something – it’s going to take a little bit of time. VLS: Sure. Did the Chief ever direct you to change any numbers or statistics on the reports that you prepare internally for the City? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. The – try to get you the specifics because I can’t – the couple different things on those reports, he would stretch the percentages. VLS: We’re going to take and go off the record for a minute. VLS: We’re back on. We thought there was going to be an interruption. Okay, you were telling me about reports for the City. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. We have had – there was a lot of problems with the purchase of a fireboat, so in – I remember in some reports the estimations he would give on the number of calls projecting out or based on historical numbers, he would then stretch. And so his percentages were always inflated to give a little bit by higher inference on why something was needed, why the boat was needed and how often it would have been used and so forth. VLS: So he would – would he make the changes himself or he would direct you to project in a different way? - 39 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, what would happen is I would create a document and then I would - he would say let’s take a look at this document. And I can remember sitting – he was sitting in his office at his little round table and look at the report and saying well he was making assumptions with data that didn’t exist. And, I should have recorded something then and there because I just felt like what he was doing was just making a determination without facts to try to elicit the outcome he wanted. And once again, in the fireboat, I’ll state, you know, I think we absolutely need, needed a fireboat. We have saved a lot of people through the years. I mean, if you’re that one person, you’re a lot of person that wants to be saved. And so we have a lot of people that go out on the water. So, once again, I, you know, it’s one of those things where you want to see a boat happen or you want to see a truck happen or you want to see some of these things take place, but you want to do it the right way so there’s no question you’re above the board. That’s, you know, the approach matters. The ends and the means matter. You can’t just say that, you know – VLS: Well, while we’re on the topic of the fireboat, did you feel, do you believe that the Chief made misrepresentations with respect to the need for a fireboat or the type of fireboat that was needed? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Absolutely. The – when we were discussing the fireboat and how this department had been treated with respect to having a boat, we had been given hand me downs that were falling apart. As I noted earlier, I met the Chief while scraping the barnacles off duty, no overtime, because I felt it was important that we had a boat available for the pier fireworks display happening for the Fourth of July. And, I was able to get permission to use this boat. It took a lot of effort, but I got it together. I wasn’t even allowed to mount the pump. I had to put a crate in the front and mount it to the crate. But, if the pier caught on fire, if one of the hundreds of boats that were out there caught on fire, we would have something to be able to take care of it. And so, that was the passion I felt about making sure we could do it, nobody is giving me money or direction. I’m taking this on my own. Based on the, you know, the years of data that I could produce from our computer system going back to 1999, there weren’t a whole lot of large scale boat fires. Although we do have a lot of those types of boats on the water here. But, through the process of trying to find a boat, I indicated that, you know, for about – I initially probably told them $120,000 or so we could get a boat that would basically replace what we have. But, I said for $250,000 we could get a fantastic boat that would cover the needs of the City. And that’s, you know, based on my experience here in the City knowing what we can reach and what our capabilities would be. And I will never forget, you know, he directed us, he direct me to get information on some MetalCraft boats and he said we are going to have the biggest boat south of Tampa on the west coast of Florida. And, he went in there, you know, going for like a $500,000 boat. And I said Chief, if you go in for less money we could get a better chance of getting it. He’s like no, no, we’re going to get the boat. And, in reference to the attitude there, I’m going to pull out a text message. I don’t know how we ended up on this boat. Here we go. VLS: Okay, we’re going back to what I think we’re going to put a sticker on exhibit #2 is it? - 40 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: This [illegible] – I think you have it here. Or maybe we put it back in the stack. VLS: Here we go. I think it was #2. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Okay. VLS: Okay, so tell me what page we’re looking at in exhibit #2? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. I’m just making sure that’s the start of what I’m talking about. VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Page 26 of 178 starts the comment here and this is probably the reason I kept these text messages. He says, “City Council us getting lots of pressure from turning down the fireboat. We have at least one more vote and only need one more.” I wrote back because I remember this conversation, “Is the boat back on the table?” And, by the way, this is 2011, June of 2011. His response is, and I apologize the language, “Squeezing their balls since I really hate to fucking loose. Need one more vote.” We can disagree all day long. I don’t like it. Nobody likes everybody. And, if he felt harassed or that he, [illegible] being questioned his authority, ultimately they run the City. Provide the right information. When he wrote that, I mean, it became a joke over the years at how many times he said I was getting a boat, that I was going to have to get this boat together because I had to keep doing research on it. But that’s, that’s the approach he takes. VLS: Okay. So, when did the need for the new fireboat – but there has been a new fireboat purchased recently, is that right? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. Yeah, it went into service July of this year. And, I had been putting band aides. My background growing up here in this area has been a lot with boats. I’ve built boats. So I’ve been putting – I had put band aides on a boat that the police took out of service for years and I finally couldn’t do it any longer. The T-top was getting so dangerous I was afraid somebody was going to get hurt. And, I just said I can no longer support keeping this boat on the water and we took it out of service. I just – VLS: When did the – when was the boat taken out of service? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I want to say it was probably towards the end of 2014. VLS: So for what period of time was the Chief pushing for the biggest boat? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah, since the south of Tampa. Well that started right away. When he saw the boat and he heard the woes that of what we’d been getting for a fireboat, you know, we weren’t exaggerating. These boats were old and for an emergency response, were a bit tough to respond to. We ended up having to buy a - 41 - new motor for that boat that was put into service to keep it going. And, so it started right away with the pressure on the big boat. And that’s what he wanted so I did all the research and we put in for it and it didn’t go anywhere. VLS: Do you believe that the Chief’s pushing or insistence on the new boat delayed the fire department from getting a better boat? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: A better boat? Yes. VLS: And what – can you describe for me the boat that the Chief was pushing for? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It was a boat from MetalCraft. VLS: That’s a manufacturer? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: That’s a manufacturer. It’s a large, primarily aluminum boat, and would have, you know, a large pump on it. He was trying to sell the idea of a big boat with a big pump on it so he could tell ISO that we had, you know, 1500 gallons of water pumping capacity and so I think he was pinning his hopes on ISO and that process helped enforce the issue on getting a big fireboat. VLS: Do you – are you familiar with what the price tag was for the boat that he specified? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It was around $500,000. May have been more than $500,000. There was – it became [illegible] because the starting and stopping, starting and stopping of getting a boat and changing what we’re doing. You know, it started at – as a $500,000 plus fireboat and then it got pared down to let see if we can get $350,000 out of them. And, you know, eventually it worked into some sort of swap that happened when something was going on with PD they’re supposed to get a boat and then they worked the politics behind the scene to get that boat switched over to us and subsequently we got a boat that, you know, it was my only option. VLS: Do you believe that the Chief misrepresented the need or the nature of the boat? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. I believe that if he could have actually sold Council on the boat by showing them and demonstrating to them exactly what we need it for and that what it would be doing, rather than it just being a check mark in the box for gallon [illegible] ISO, he would have had a much better opportunity to sell the boat and to get by [illegible] on the boat, but when you tell somebody you’ve gone from hand me downs for 25 years for 20 years or however long that we’ve had a boat to we need $500,00 boat, there’s a sticker shock there. And I don’t know if this is a negotiating tactic, well I’ll ask for $500,000, but he wasn’t’ taking any information from us. There was no exchange on information of any kind that was like a, well here’s the research we’ve got and an active debate on here’s how we can [illegible] this, it was just, you know. VLS: Did you personally attempt to give him a different context on the boat? - 42 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. I specifically said Chief, that’s more boat than we need. If you cut that thing to 250, we’ve got a much better chance of getting the boat that will do the job we need to do. And that was as he was heading out the door to Council. I was still asking, please don’t go this way. VLS: Alright. And, can you place that in time when you were, right before he went to Council telling him it was more boat? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: This is gotta be back prior to 2012, I believe. I have to see if I still have any of the information, but I don’t know. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I kept this stuff around for quite a while because I had a binder full of it. I could look for it, but I don’t know for sure. VLS: Do you believe that the Chief misrepresented to Council or the City what capabilities you needed in a fire, I mean, what the boat was going to do? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I think what he did was create a sense of a larger urgency. In other words, I believe he made it to be that there was more of a demand than there has historically prevented itself. That’s not to say that there isn’t a need, but the need that he was trying to paint wasn’t necessarily what our data would support. VLS: And does that go back to what we were talking about earlier with the physical reports you prepared and the projection? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Right. Yeah. His needs that – the comment is that he needs that call. You know. He needs that big fire so he can sell it. VLS: I think we started our discussion on an enumerated point in the Local’s October 21 letter about the Chief having mislead the community and City staff creating a misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities. We’ve talked about the fireboat. We have talked about statistics, coding with the NFIRS system. Are there other points that you believe are relevant to that allegation by the Union. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, with regard to the NFIRS stuff, I ran numbers that I shared with people that I, you know, I did like a four year study of four years before and four years after to prove my point. So I have, I have that document in my system. VLS: Okay. And can you – do you have that with you today? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Only thing I have is, I, you know, I put the information, I have a document that I can give you. But, all I have is the proof of change in the coding of calls is contained in an Excel spreadsheet containing four full years of fire electrical hazards. Two years before McInerny, oh, it’s a two year, two years before and - 43 - two years after. So I studied two years before and after. No, it’s four years. I’ll give you this paper. I’ll use it for notes to go with, but what this is, this is, this is my little cheat sheet if you will on stuff that I wanted to make I covered. And this is the findings that I found of how the numbers of fires from 05 to 2008, so it’s a four year period, was 200 calls. And then if you look at the next set of fires, it’s – the four years after he got here, is 320. You know, and then corresponding, you know, electrical hazards, dropped by about the same amount. When you go forward, you know, we had much fewer, you can see here, electrical hazards. So, I’ll give you a copy of this and I can produce the Excel document. VLS: Okay, the whole document itself, why don’t we keep that together. We’ll mark this #6. And this is a document you prepared for discussion today? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, I started this before any of this took place. I have been, I don’t want to say – I think that people outside the office have been slower to come upon this than I have. This has bothered me, obviously. I mean I go – I would see the e-mails and text messages a while ago. I should have done more. But it was to what end? Because there was no mechanism for me to have job security and come forward, it’s my boss. So, and so, you know, I started making some mental notes, writing stuff down and saving text messages, so. VLS: Okay. So, the study that you ran that we were just discussing that showed the increase in the fire calls and the decrease in the hazardous conditions, when did you run that study? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I first ran that study –whew. I wonder if I saved it separately. I might be able to produce the date that I ran that, but the first time I did this would have been, you know, back in 2013, 2014. I guess it would have been after 2014. Or – so it’s been a couple years since I first ran it because I took this information. In February 2014, and I think I made a note of it in here, I was very frustrated. It was causing me a lot of anguish. I was talking to Pete about it. Talking with Tom, hoping Tom was going, Tom Vogel, was going to do something on his way out. That didn’t happen. So, my dad has always been a very good resource. So, and I’ll never forget the day because it was my 50th birthday. And that morning, I met with my dad and a friend of his who I trust who has a good, I think, ear. And Pete and I met with them. It played right into my wife’s hands because she threw the surprise birthday party and I was, actually I saw pictures of it yesterday, and I was completely blown away because I was so wound up because the question is, what do we do, what do we do. And that was, and that was coming up on two years ago. And, you know, the questions were, were do you have? What kind of documentation do you have? You know, what else is he doing? You know, just trying to figure out is there something that you’ve got that would just seal the deal and you could bring this forth [illegible]. Here’s the smoking gun to relieve your anguish over not saying anything. And, so I’ll, you know, so this isn’t a new issue for me. VLS: So was it after that, your 50th birthday party, that you did, you ran the numbers or right before that? - 44 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I think, I think I ran the numbers before that to kind of show them the kind of thing that codes meant. Because I was talking to my dad openly and regularly about, guess what we did today. You know, always a puzzlement as to some of the stuff that we would do. And so I would bring this up to him. And that led to more and more conversations. VLS: Just so we can get the date of that milestone of when you turned 50. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: 2/25/2014. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And we met at my dad’s friend’s house who I’ve known a long time. VLS: Have you shared the statistics from that study that you ran with anyone outside the department? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, my dad and his friend obviously know about it. I’ve mentioned it to a neighbor. VLS: What about within City, what about within City management? decide to share it with any members of Council? Did you ever BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Absolutely not. VLS: Or management? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. No. Other firefighters. You know, I mean they all knew because they were the ones filling out the reports. They knew which reports they had been told to do this way or that way. And as far as the rest of that there, he has created a misrepresentation of need or they do not exist regarding apparatus and facilities, on the apparatus, I’ll just try to take it piece by piece. The apparatus issue, you know, we discussed the fireboat. You know, I think that if money were no object and you had the deep water access and all that stuff, the bigger fireboat [illegible] the capabilities so it’s hard to argue that that would be not good to have. However, with the types of calls that we run and the shallow water we run and the low preponderance of fires, it was bigger than we could not only afford evidently or that they were willing to spend, but, and so that, that’s where I, I have a, where I would agree on apparatus. I think that, you know, they go back, you know, when they bought the ladder truck, I heard that the committee that looked at all the options, they, the committee of firefighters and lieutenants and so forth, picked a truck and the Chief picked a different truck, but that’s, that’s, you know. As far as facilities go, you know, he’s been pushing to build a new Station 1 and there was money set up to remodel Station 1. I would just, in this particular case, I would disagree with his approach. We had money set aside to do some remodel projects and he said we shouldn’t waste that money on remodeling. We should build a new station. And, I don’t have a disagreement with if you’re going to do that. It was a new building so, and it wasn’t built right. However, we went ahead and - 45 - spent tens and tens of thousands dollars, even after the crews all said. I remember Chief Vogel talking specifically to have his shift ask the other shift to see do they want to refurb the kitchen or just leave it as it is. And, you know, they’re like, listen, if it’s going to help us get a station that will be big enough to do what you need it to do in its entirety so you’re more prepared, don’t do anything. But we spent $70,000 or $69,000 on a kitchen and we retiled. And we did a few things, but we kept a few things bad so that we could point them out to everybody. VLS: Okay, and what types of – give me an example of what conditions were kept? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Shower issues, like of the moldy showers and leaky showers. We kept that. We didn’t do anything more substantial with the generator. We did get a – we eventually got a generator that ran more than just the refrigerator. I mean it, you know there – he identified a problem and I don’t disagree. I think that the station was done poorly and without regard to what it is we do. When the conditions are at their worse, when there’s a hurricane and aftermath cleanup and you have no electricity, you should have a station that has a generator so you can run facilities because you’re usually very busy. I went – after Andrew I went to the east coast. I can see how bad it gets, so it makes sense to do your infrastructure correctly. But I disagree with the way that he, you know, just kind of threw money at a few things. VLS: Okay. So, I want to tie this back to, if you tie this back to the Chief. For instance, with the showers. Did he – are you saying that he said not to fix particular conditions? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: He was told the guys were okay with living with what conditions they have if it would mean saving the money and having it go towards a new station. VLS: Okay, who did he represent that to, if I’m understanding? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Chief Vogel spoke to his shift and that information came back to us at the office with the Chief and advised that the guys are okay. Just leave it the way it is if this helps you in trying to get a station done that’s more appropriate. VLS: Alright. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: So, you know, so then from there, you know, he talks about the facilities. You know, whenever there’s an opportunity, it’s always about exaggeration, it’s about [illegible], and so when you talk about had bad of a facility it is, it’s always about its deplorable conditions or its – but these are things that could have been fixed or taken care of. And so, it’s a question of do you want to waste good money or throw good money after bad kind of thing. But, you know, he made the relationship with the airport so rough that if – the last hurricane that was threatening, I was advised that the Director of the airport was going force us to move and work out the new Solid Waste Treatment facility Solid Water facility that the City put out at Station 3 because, you know, he was – I listened to him tell a Council person that was running - 46 - that the station has to be bulldozed and it’s deplorable. And what it is, is that, you know when they looked at VLS: Which station is that? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Station 3. VLS: Okay, that’s the airport? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: That’s the airport. You know, he was saying that we need a new station out there, that this was has to be bulldozed. But when I look back at and think back to when the discussion about the station took place, you know, he had the media go out and say the station was in bad condition. He was trying to push the issue to get a new station built so he made the station worse than it is. Because the station is not falling down. There’s no major mold issues. It’s just not designed that would be easy to expand if you were going to add an engine company to handle calls on the east side of the city. VLS: What Council person or candidate did he state that Station 3 needed to be bulldozed? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It was a female candidate that’s coming recently. It may have been McLeod. M C L E O D or something like that. And I overheard that conversation in the office. VLS: And is that recent. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah, yeah. election. She’s running for Council this coming VLS: And you said something about he made Station 3 worse than it is? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: What do you mean by that? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, well as I had mentioned, he’s telling the press that, so you have Channel 2 or somebody out there reporting that the station is in bad condition and needs to be rebuilt and I think that that’s what ramped up the, some of the argument going on back and forth between the Naples Airport Authority and the City of Naples. VLS: Anything else that you can think of with regard to the issue of misimpression of need with regard to apparatus and facilities? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I’ll look at – see if I have anything in here in my notes. I don’t, I don’t think there’s anything else. - 47 - VLS: Okay, and I’m going to bring up a topic not to suggest it, but to see if it is in your mind an issue and that is a QRV for Station 1. Do you know have any observations? Apparently, there has recently been a purchase of a QRV for Station 1? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: Do you believe that there were any misrepresentation or exaggerations associated with the acquisition of the QRV for Station 1? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah, I’m confused about this particular issue because I don’t know how it came to be. What started it. I don’t know if the Chief suggested it or if Council suggested it. I know Council is talking about a QRV. They’d like to see something other than a big engine. I was looking at an e-mail that I didn’t bring today where the Chief was talking about his staffing of the trucks and rather than take personnel and assign them to the QRV, he’s going to make people move their gear back and forth from one truck to another based on the call type if they happen to be in the station. And that we’re not going to staff the truck and yet, you know, it’s to be there and I don’t know how to set it up in the CAD system because, you know, I can’t dispatch a truck that’s not staffed. If I do, I hope they’re in quarters to get in it. Otherwise, they’re changing the dispatch which is fine except that, you know, it creates some strange reports because it’s going to show a truck cancelled that didn’t go or whatever. So, but the e-mail that I had looked at was an e-mail that he had included me in, I left at the house. It was with Chief or Councilman Finlay asking about the staffing of it and the questioning of it. You know, whether or not it has been purchased to try to show that we need to staff it and, you know, that’s why we’re not staffing it. I think it’s part of an end game, but I, you know, I say that because everything seems to be driven at getting more firefighters. VLS: Can you produce that e-mail regarding the QRV? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. I printed it twice. VLS: And I’m going to bring up another apparatus, not to suggest something, but to get your opinion. Apparently, I’ve been told that there is a request for a new Battalion Chief vehicle. Are you aware of that? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. They want to replace the truck that I’m currently driving. VLS: You’re driving it because you’re on duty today? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes, that’s my on duty, yes. Correct. VLS: So there’s one single truck for the Battalion Chief, whose ever on duty? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. - 48 - VLS: Do you have any opinion or information on whether a new Battalion Chief truck is needed? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It’s opinion. VLS: Okay. And I appreciate you specifying when something is opinion and when – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And I’m sure if we went back through there, we could, we could delineate where I haven’t said it. He has decided that he wants to replace the Battalion Chiefs’ vehicle rather than the prevention vehicle and it goes kind of contrary to what the rest of the County has done. The County used to roll and so did we in a SUV, a large SUV. We went to an F-250, more of a heavy-duty truck because invariably we’ve had to – I’ve had to pull boats out of the water because, you know, it was convenience to not try to get a separate vehicle. It gave us some capability of carrying more equipment and also had the availability to carry extra personnel if needed. It’s a four-door. He has hated the vehicle since day one. I mean, just complains about its ride, whatever. It ride likes a brick. But it’s a strong brick. And we need to produce a new vehicle for the prevention that trailers a safety house, fire prevention. And so, that’s an older vehicle. It doesn’t have a lot of miles on it but because of age I guess there’s – and I don’t get, I haven’t read what the City’s purchasing requirements are on apparatus. So it’s process is actually to just take our vehicle and slide it over to this department, this wing of our department, and produce a new vehicle for us. It’s just unfortunate that while everyone else has gone heavy duty with as much capability as possible, we’re going to go lighter duty. VLS: Meaning an SUV? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: An SUV. VLS: As opposed to a truck? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Right, right. So it’s, it’s, you know, I believe that there is a certain age limit where you start to say okay, well it doesn’t have a lot of miles on it, but belts and hoses and everything start to become expensive, so let’s get a safer or a more reliable, potentially more reliable vehicle. I can understand that. So, this is where it is my opinion. My opinion is that we probably shouldn’t be switching away from this truck. I don’t see it as one of those gotcha moments in time. I just feel like, once again, this was, you know, you know, we have a staff that doesn’t function like a staff. We have opinions that aren’t, and haven’t been. You know, there’s, you know – I’ve watched Council for years and years and I’ve lived here for years and years and, you know, we don’t – we have a system right now that’s say as I do or do as I say and so this is one of those opinions where I just disagree with him. VLS: Let’s move on to point 2 in the letter which is that the Department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage and intensity. I think we may have talked about your position. - 49 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: We talked about damage assessments. We had a Mangrove Café have an explosion down here where propane was leaking and filled the restaurant and, actually, it lifted the roof. I ran that call. The Fire Marshall, when the Chief was putting together, you know were having discussions and he actually mentioned how much he thought the damage assessment would be, and, you know, I think he threw out a million dollars. VLS: The Fire Chief did? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: The Fire Chief. And, I remember the Fire Marshall going, “You know, I don’t think it’s going to be that, that high.” You know, he was kind of like taken back. And that’s been the way a lot of the damage assessments have gone. I don’t know how much validity those assessments have and how other departments do. I can only speak from what we’re doing within here, but it was hard for me to understand the million dollar type of damage assessment. VLS: And is that what ultimately was reflected? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I think so. VLS: When was the Mangrove Café fire or propane leak, however we - ? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: That’s been four years probably since then. I’d have to go back in time. VLS: Have you done any study like you did with regard to the nature of the fire calls changing? Have you done any study with respect to changes in value loss? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. I have not. I’m going to though. VLS: Okay. That’s something that you’re capable of doing through your system. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. Oh absolutely. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: But I think that when you – I’ll have to look at it, but, you know, I believe very strongly that, you know, it’s going to reflect the same thing. VLS: Are you – go ahead. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: With respect to fire calls, damage and intensity, when he writes up, he’ll send narratives to City Manager which goes to Council and he’ll represent what took place at the call. And I had a lieutenant call me up and said did you see that write-up on such and such of a call, and I was trying to find it last night and didn’t find it, but it was an apartment fire in a small apartment over here in River Park, and these are concrete buildings, concrete walls, and it’s low income. By the time we - 50 - got there, the fire had pretty much burned out. And so, there was a phone book that still had a little bit of fire on it. That’s about it. VLS: A what had a little bit – ? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: A phone book. VLS: Phone book. Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: This girl was moving into a new apartment and it was devastating for her because she was leaving an abusive relationship and this was a fresh start for her. And so they had set stuff on the stove, hit the thing. It was horrible. And so fortunately it didn’t destroy a lot of stuff, but it really didn’t make her day. But he described the conditions and he’s like, hey that must of – my lieutenant was like, that must have been a good fire. I mean, because the way he described the conditions weren’t the reality, because the fire was already cooling off and it was, you know. VLS: Who responded to the fire? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: The B Shift. It was my shift. VLS: It was your shift? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: And did you, did you go to the fire? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I took command of the fire, yeah. VLS: You did? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. VLS: Okay, so you’ve got direct knowledge? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Oh yeah. VLS: Observation? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. VLS: And when was the fire at the River Park Apartments? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I’m saying a couple years ago. VLS: Okay. And what – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Lt. Homan was the lieutenant in charge. He was first in the building there. - 51 - VLS: And, the narrative that you’re saying that does not match up is the narrative that the Chief sent to? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: That he sends to the City Manager and he’ll send a notation out. Give me a second and I’ll show you an example. VLS: Sure. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: So he’ll send out these notices to – here’s an example. And I didn’t see anything that struck me as, as exceedingly noteworthy, but I, I was looking for this type of thing and so this is just one about a U.S. Postal Service mail truck. And so this is typical of what gets sent out and I circled the one thing on there which says 180 because, you know, any chance or opportunity he gets to make the percentages look, you know, drastic, he’ll do it. VLS: Okay. So #6 is an example of the type of publication or e-mail you’re talking about, but you’re pointing out that this type of a communication was sent out about the River Park – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: Apartment fire and you’re saying that that was an examples of something that didn’t match reality? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: He tends to over exaggerate. That would be the term that I used in my notes. He exaggerates conditions. VLS: Okay. Did he ever go to the River Park? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: He was there. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: After the fact, he came out. VLS: Okay. Are there any pictures of the River Park fire? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I’m sure. I think that this particular fire, one of the Councilmembers, Penniman, went to see the fire scene. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And if I recall, she was asking, you know, how much water it took. I mean Lt. Homan indicated he barely just cracked the nozzle and just dribbled water onto this thing and that’s all he had to do. VLS: Did Penniman talk to any members of the fire department when she went to the scene? - 52 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t know. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I have another one here that is – here – this was a – this is part of a thread that went with the Chief and the City Manager and this is the Mayor. And this one is dated March 5, 2012. So, this [illegible] noteworthy fire-rescue department activity. So, in this particular e-mail, the reason the City Mayor took umbrage with this was that the Chief wrote on this, and this is where he tends to be [illegible]. So, we have had at least two cases recently where restaurants not yet opened were full of natural gas and well within the catastrophic explosion range on Fifth Avenue South. That’s a reference to the Mangrove Café fire that I ran. As another case in point, we responded to the Cheesecake Factory within the last week after midnight and found the cleaning crew outside and frantically waiving at us. Our personnel entered to find a busted natural gas line feeding a kitchen stove on fire. We quickly secured the case and extinguished the fire. Which if you’ve secured the gas, you’ve extinguished the fire. He writes, “We are likely to experience another Mangrove Café incident if we continue on this track and pace.” That’s like predicting the sun’s going to come up tomorrow. You don’t know. So, in this thread, the Mayor writes, “I wish the Chief would not be so dramatic in his e-mails. Why do we need this last sentence? Would not help us in certain instances.” And then he writes, “This is for your eyes only.” At one point, he’s – he – he, he has a vent – he kind of vents on the Council, so. VLS: Okay. I’m going to mark that e-mail chain we’ve just been referencing as #7. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And this is, you know, I didn’t have highlighter or I would have highlighted the comment that got me, my interest. But, you know, as the “for your eyes only” and then I started reading it and remembered, you know, when this took place where he was – and there’s other Councilmembers that made the same comments, you know, about his dramatic phrasing. VLS: Okay, So you – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And this, this goes to the conversation about misrepresentation and exaggerations. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I think that he has done such a large scale amount of dramatization on every call that when they start looking at the data and start asking questions, it doesn’t always come back to them. Like, you know, Finlay’s gone off and done a lot of investigating where he’s looking at, and this one’s an important one to bring up. But, that’s where the, you know, I agree with the local’s assessment which is that they – the department’s integrity is in question. And, that’s why I’ve been doing what I’ve been doing or at least complaining or worried for so many years. Because you can’t keep doing this stuff and not have it have some sort of impact, on not only the City, but its employees as well. - 53 - VLS: Okay, you have another example you wanted to share with me. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, this is, this is, this goes to how we – there was a change made and I don’t know, and maybe I’ve got it in notes here, but let me see if I’ve got it. We talked about coding. One of the things that we do is, you know, we make certain announcements on the radio. VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: So, like we’ll say on scene of stage water supply, you know, search and rescue completed or, you know, initial search. Here’s a big one, fire is out. Fire under control. Councilman Finlay, and it’s weird because I don’t agree with Councilman Finlay on a lot of things, but there was times when I was rooting for him, you’re in the right direction. I would make the comment. And, you know, you’re heading in the right direction. Finish it. Go. But he talks about the dramatic fire increases is not related to buildings and burning, but to very small events, many outside, and involving no fire suppression by NFD. Does this mean reporting standards have changed? He’s asking these questions. Since 2009 or is there just more small non-suppressed incidents. Regardless, as we enter back into budget sessions, reviewing the detail, you know, he’s talking about the dramatic increase of fires. He also made note of how many times, you know, how much time on scene, how long until the fire is out. The Chief directed us to not indicate the fire was out until we were ready to put the hose back on the trucks. VLS: This was after Finlay’s? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: After Finlay’s assessment. VLS: Okay, when was Finlay’s? Can you go to that? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: 2011 is when this report looks like came out from Finlay. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And it looks like this is page 1, 2 and then there’s follow-up. VLS: Okay, we’re going to mark #8 this group of documents that you’re referring to. Okay. Who did the Chief direct not to indicate fire out until the hoses were being put back on the truck? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Myself, Pete DiMaria, Thomas Vogel. VLS: So that Battalion Chiefs at the time? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: The Battalion Chiefs, yes. - 54 - VLS: And where – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: He’s the one that sent us Finlay’s document. VLS: Okay. And it was after that that he? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. He said, he said, you know cause, you know, you know if the hose is back on the truck, I mean you could, you could have something that’s not out yet that you’ve got to put out. And, I don’t mean to be doing impressions. He, I just, you know, to me it’s another manipulation of times. You know, he wanted us pulling hose off even if the fire was out so we could indicate the hose was off and he wanted it, you know. VLS: Okay. What in your opinion is an appropriate time to give the command fire out? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: When operations. we complete a salvage and overhaul VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And we determine through both visual inspection and thermal imaging that we no longer have hot spots. VLS: Okay. When the Chief directed you not to indicate fire out until the hoses were back on the truck, was that communicated through the chain of command to personnel? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: That’s a one man chain. It’s just him to me or him to us. VLS: Did that – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It wasn’t a written. VLS: Okay, understood. Was – did you communicate that – who makes the fire out call? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: The incident commander. Battalion Chief. And that’s typically the VLS: Okay. And as a Battalion Chief under his chain of command, did you do as instructed? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: As instructed. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And in fact, I was off duty listening. We set up these command texts where the command staff knows because I will come in off duty and have so to help with incident command and management. And, we had a fire, I believe - 55 - it was at the beach club, earlier this year where an acting lieutenant indicated over the radio that the fire was out. And, I had since told Lt. Homan, who’s a supervisor, to let him know not to call the fire out, but he can relay information to the chain of command saying, you know. I believe that he actually communicated, because I heard it on the radio. That’s why it struck me [illegible] and we called Naples which is what we call our dispatch center and we’re talking to Naples, be advised the fire is out. And, I was just nervous. I don’t want, I don’t want anybody to get into any hot water over whether or not I haven’t communicated well enough so that the lieutenant knows that he either [illegible]. There’s been this fear factor. VLS: Alright. Anything else with regard to the second point in the Union’s letter which is: The Department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. I don’t think so. VLS: Has the Chief ever advised you, or said in your presence, that the department should not put fires out so fast or let property burn down? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. He’s referred to them as, he has specifically told me if you get any calls, especially down in Port Royal, and it gets up in the attic, let it burn. Don’t be so aggressive. VLS: And when was that comment, statement made to you? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, it has been more than one. I mean, there was one, there were – this type of comment has been going on for years now where, you know, he’s looking for us to be less aggressive and because it increases the amount of fire damage, I don’t think anybody has ever acted upon it because it’s completely against our nature. We had such a poor relationship with surrounding departments in the past that we didn’t ask for mutual aid. I mean, it was one of those things where it was frowned upon. You didn’t do it. And you try to get trucks available as quickly as possible so you can cover the residence as quickly as possible. So, that, you know, has kind of been thrown out the window. And, I’m not saying that’s all bad because if we’re all running to a call and we get something coming in, we need to have somebody coming to take care of that so some of this is good. But, those comments, I mean, there was a comment recently. I was in the office, but I think it was the C shift and we had a boat, come in as a boat fire. So, we’re running out the door because they gave the address over off of 10th and it was a, I mean it was on 9th, and it was one of those bigger marinas. It was a nothing call. Ends up being an overheated generator on the boat. But, we were going and responding. So, the radio was keyed saying Battalion 1 respond and I decided to jump in and help in case is was something to go and the Chief was going to. So he came out the door with us, myself and Chief DiMaria. And I’ll never forget, because we’re talking and he was like, ah, I wish that mike had caught it because he doesn’t carry a radio typically, so he didn’t know the radio had been keyed, but if it had just been five seconds, you would have heard him saying, “just let it burn to - 56 - water line. We don’t have the resources.” And he doesn’t even know what we have yet. VLS: Okay. Who was – who else heard that comment? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Chief DiMaria and I were running out the door to this when he said that and commented. VLS: And when was that? Was that this year? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. It was this year. VLS: Alright. It is noon time. Why don’t we take a little break? Is there anything else on this second point that you would like to bring to my attention that is the point in the Union’s letter that the Department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity? We can come back after lunch. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah, I think – VLS: If there’s anything else you want to bring up. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: There may be some things that I will touch in these notes that I have. VLS: Okay. Very good. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: That would go to that. VLS: Alright. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And then maybe I can look up with what mendacity? VLS: Mendacity? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Mendacity. I don’t think I’ve ever used that before. VLS: It’s not in my regular vocabulary either. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It’s a 10 point word. VLS: Yes. It is. Okay, so it is now noon time and we’re going to go off the record. VLS: Alright, it is 12:20. We are back on the record. We – I started asking questions and did not turn the recorder back on, so we’re going to, I’m going to go back now and ask Battalion Chief Nichols about the third point in the Local’s October 21, 2015 letter which is: The Chief’s misrepresentations, exaggerations and outright mendacity have created a lack of trust between the Chief and the city’s fire-rescue personnel. As a - 57 - result, the Chief has lost the ability to effectively lead the City firefighters. I know you did not prepare that statement, but do you agree with it? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: To try to capture what I stated earlier. VLS: And I apologize for that. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No problem. My initial reaction was to say that I agree with the statement as it pertains to the firefighters because of the different things that have taken place, but it’s tough to speak for anyone other than yourself. I don’t believe that these issues have affected the prevention side of this department with any great amount. But, it has affected the Battalion Chief’s office and as I was stating earlier, I will always do the best job that I can, no matter who I’m working for. But to say that I trust the statements that are being made or the motives, it has definitely affected me. His actions have definitely impacted my sense that we’re all working on the same team. VLS: Okay. Are there any specific examples that you want to share with regard to statement #3 in the Union’s letter? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, and I’ll be able to get into more detail in some of this, but it comes down to trusting someone’s word. When we went through the most recent thing, which was the hiring of a new Training Chief, there were statements made by the Chief in the office in my presence also to, I believe, Acting Battalion Chief Gerry Pecar, that he really wanted to hire Gerry as the new Training Chief. But he made comments saying that the Human Resources Director was blocking it because of his lack of a degree as I recall. That seems to be incorrect. I don’t have a degree and I’ve been a Battalion Chief since 2009, not have I been asked to get one. So that is just one of several issues whether it’s that or when answering requests, public records request. You know I’ve been, I watched the information be parsed and just partial answers be given, so, I don’t have a strong sense of trust in his word. And so that makes it difficult to say that I can trust everything that he is saying. As far as other examples, the promotional process, one of the things that comes to mind when I mentioned the Chief Pennington hire was that he recently sent a document to the City or the City Manager, which was a response to the PSSi who came in to do a strategic plan, where he highlighted a bunch of areas that were, needed to be corrected. One of them was about the promotional process. In the original e-mail, he produced a document that had one of the postings for the Battalion Chief position, which may have been my posting in 2009. If not, it would have been for the hiring for Chief Tim Bruener. There might have been – that was the last official posting that I had seen and there was no promotional process for Battalion Chief other than whatever he did on his own in determining who he was going to fill a position with. So, I feel like in the PSSi report, he’s telling them they misrepresented the facts when in reality, their facts were correct. They’re really isn’t a promotional process that we’ve been following for Battalion Chief. And then, even with PSSi, I noted an e-mail that indicates that, you know, they wanted to speak to me at length and as part of the strategic plan, I was told I would be speaking to them. And yet, I was never given the opportunity to speak with anyone from PSSi. - 58 - VLS: You were never interviewed? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Never interviewed for PSSi. And I was nervous about it because I was afraid of what they were going to ask and that was going to put me in a position of being at odds with the Chief. VLS: When did the – from whom did the e-mail come stating they wanted, that PSSi wanted to speak with you regarding this strategic plan? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I will pull the e-mail up. I apologize if I’m taking too long. VLS: No, I’m just looking at the recorder to make sure we don’t have another error. It’s running fine. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Alright. This e-mail is dated March 16, 2015 at 6:39 p.m. Is sent from Leslie Adams to Chief McInerny and copied to Robert McNally, Mark Jackson and myself. This is a, looks like a response to the Chief where he tells the Chief that Chief Nichols handles all of our data, NFIRS reporting, software implementation in coordination with Mark Jackson and his staff. For example, we use the following software system. And he goes on to list that. And he gives my personal cell phone number here and will be on duty. He’s one of our shift Battalion Chiefs. PSSi indicates, “Yes, we will be speaking in great detail with you and all the NFRD staff including BC Nichols on our next on-site visits.” He is that e-mail. VLS: Okay, thank you. I’m going to put #9 on that e-mail. Do you know, so you had no communication personally, either by e-mail or in person or by phone with anyone from PSSi? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: The only thing I might have provided was Excel documentation. But, that was it. I had no phone interviews or personal interviews with PSSi. VLS: So in terms of the statistics that PSSi may have with regard to fire calls and intensity and that type of thing, it would to you knowledge strictly written data? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: Or did they interview someone else with respect to that? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I had little to no contact with them at all. Here is the document that was prepared. It looks like on August 31, 2015, this is what I printed from the e-mail where he indicated that the promotional process was – VLS: And you’ve put an asterisk by that? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: An asterisk. - 59 - VLS: And, I’m going to mark that as, I think we’re on to #10. Yes. And, if at what you are saying is that this is incorrect, there was no detailed promotional process for the positions of fire lieutenant and battalion chief? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. I’m saying – VLS: Okay, tell me. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: To be correct, to the position of Battalion Chief, he’s indicated that it’s the same process and that’s not true. And what he showed in his original documentation was a copy that he called Schedule A, I think, see Attachment A. And that was a promotional posting. And since that time, we’ve hired one – two – three – or four Battalion Chiefs since my hiring. My hiring in 2009 was the last time there was any competitive process other than – VLS: Okay, I think I understand now. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: If you’d like, I’ll underline the Battalion Chief thing there to be clear. VLS: Sure, why don’t you go ahead and do that. Did you receive the PSSi report? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: Have you read it? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Some of it, not all of it. VLS: Okay, what sections did you focus on? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I basically perused most of the document and then I went through this document here. VLS: #10? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: He was looking for corrections or issues with any of the statements, but I couldn’t respond to something like that without feeling like I was putting myself at [illegible]. VLS: Was there anything in the PSSi report, recognizing you didn’t read the whole thing, that you took issue with? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t recall having any issue necessarily with what they were stating. VLS: Do you know whether the Chief in any way interfered with PSSi’s ability to access information? - 60 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, the process in itself, has been frustrating because I thought for sure I would be interviewed. And I was told that I would be interviewed. So, I thought that was an opportunity, it was going to be difficult, but I was anticipating that. So, I don’t know why I wasn’t given the opportunity to speak. That was one issue. And based on that and then some of the stuff that he stated in the email talking about well it may have been who you asked in the office, he was blaming some of the issues that PSSi had that didn’t agree with him on Chief Moyer, who retired, indicating that he perhaps said these things to PSSi to somehow create a problem for him. But, that’s what he told me in a conversation. I’m trying to recall. And I have a problem with, you know, he’s put out a memo indicating the name change of the training department. We have one person. We have a Training Chief. And now it’s called, you know. It goes back to, you know, what is it you’re really doing to me? I’m going to change the name of this department and that’s going to prove you that I’m somehow doing something different than what I’m really doing. VLS: And you have those documents? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. I’m just looking for the one document. VLS: Okay, thank you. Take your time. We are in no rush. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It’s gotta be in this stack [illegible]. I know I printed it. And this goes back, you know, this also touches on the comment that was made about #3, the point in their letter. Because when it came out I had, he sent it out as a, he sent this e-mail out as a memorandum or informational bulletin to the department and it was received rather poorly, partly probably because – and so here’s the e-mail. Partly because the people don’t trust him and they don’t like the fact that they had been stifled in-house opportunity and partly because, you know, it says, and here’s the memo dated November 18, 2015, “Good evening. Please see that attached Memorandum “Fire=Rescue Training, Safety & EMS Bureau’ as it reflects a new name and emphasis on the importance of both safety concerns and Emergency Medical Services within the Fire Department. If you have any questions, do not hesitate to let me know. Thank you very much for your cooperation and assistance.” It’s just anecdotal, but it, and it just seemed almost silly because I’m not quite sure what’s in name. It’s great for marketing. That’s why they call it a Big Mac when you go to McDonalds because, you know, it’s big, it’s, you know, they want to get your attention. But, what has fundamentally changed? This Bureau is one person. How many, you know, so. And this one person walks in the door and doesn’t have some of the necessary stuff to actually be qualified. You know, he may lots of qualifications, but not necessarily in the areas that would make him automatically the best candidate between [illegible]. VLS: Okay. I’m going to mark that e-mail of November 18, 2015 as #11. Do you need to take a break? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. I’m good. - 61 - VLS: Okay. So let’s go back for a minute. I want to touch on some things you have mentioned since our last break. You said there was some statements made in your presence by the Chief regarding Lt. Pecar. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Uh huh. VLS: What statements did the Chief make in your presence? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, he sat in the office and said that Gerry, I would like you to be the next Training Chief, however, I’m having to, I have to tell you that Denise Perez is pushing back because you don’t have a degree. And that was essentially the conversation. And Gerry said well thank you for considering me and let me know. VLS: When did that conversation take place? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I guess that would have been sometime in September. VLS: Of 2015? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes, yes. It was in this last promotional period. The vacancy that was created when Chief Moyer retired. VLS: And do you know whether, in fact, the Chief had talked to Denise Perez in HR? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I’ve heard the rumors. VLS: Okay, you don’t know for fact? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t know what was said. I can just tell you what I’ve been told. VLS: Okay. That’s okay. I’ll ask you some more about that promotional process, but I don’t want to lose my train of thought. Earlier you mentioned something about public records request and only partial answers being given. I don’t know, you told me earlier in the day about you felt not being able to give all of the information in response to a public records request, but was there something else that you wanted to add about public records request and the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. One of the e-mails I have talks about how many hours it took. And we had – it’s – when I have a conversation with the Chief, often times it becomes coercive. VLS: It becomes what? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t know if I’m using the right word, coercive? VLS: Oh yes, okay. I didn’t hear you. - 62 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: He’s trying to get me to agree to something that I’m not going to agree with. But he’ll shake his head and nod and say yeah, yeah, see this is what I’m talking about. And so, he’ll take a number. Well how long did it take to put that together? Well it took a while. Well what would you estimate? And he would – he’ll. And so, there was one e-mail, if you would give me just a second. VLS: Sure. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Where he is writing to, I think, Doug Finlay, Councilman Finlay, about the time it was taking to fill. And while I agree that sometimes these requests can take some to fill, I don’t think they take quite the amount of time that he’s indicating. So, obviously, [illegible] get more specific. This one touches on it, so you will have a document [illegible]. There may be more than one e-mail then that I’m looking for. Here’s one dated July 19. VLS: Okay, I’m going to mark that #12. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And he talks about the eight hours of time that I spent in researching it. And if I may have that back for a second. His response to answer the question that was posed by Councilman Finlay, is to say that, “As I’ve explained previously, we have been working on this information request. Battalion Chief Mike Nichols has spent 8 hours researching the requested information so far. He is working today and we are reviewing the data together this evening and then I will respond most likely tomorrow. Altogether, it will most likely involve at least 10 or possibly 11 staff hours to gather and analysis this data.” And then he goes into that he is a 63 man department, he had three clerical positions in 95, he’s only got one now, and it’s just a – at one point – . But, you know, when he arrived at those hours, he’s exaggerated. Because those hours weren’t – and there’s another one when he – VLS: Let me stop you there. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Sure. VLS: And then you can look for anything additional. So, in this July 19, 2012 e-mail, were you personally involved in putting together some of the documents responsive to Finlay’s request? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I’m sure I probably was. VLS: Okay, and do you have – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I didn’t dive in to see which documents I produced and that’s why I want to make sure I get a record of these so what I can do is look back at the documents I produced for those records. VLS: Okay, but you believe that 10 to 12 staff hours is an exaggeration? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Absolutely. - 63 - VLS: And I didn’t mean to interrupt you. document. You were going to go on to another BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. I believe I have one more document where he’s talking about, you know, the amount of time it was taking as well. I thought I had two of those. VLS: Okay, while you’re looking, let me ask you this question. Have you seen the actual invoices that went out for the public records request? Do you know if the City sends out invoices when they produce records? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t know what they do. VLS: Okay. Do you know at what rate the fire department charges for responding to public records requests? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t conversation. That’s just hearsay. know what they decide. I’ve heard VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: A lot of this right here is of the same, alright. So, this was dated July 19, 2012. This one is dated at the top of the thread, October 21, 2014. It’s from the Chief to Bill Moss and it says – it’s addressed, “Good evening. City Councilman Doug Finlay has requested copies of 121 fireboat incident responses over the last three years. It is estimate that it will take approximately 6 minutes [this is the one that] 6 minutes to locate each incident within the respective records management system and the request would entail pulling from both systems (VisionAir [the vision fire system] and ImageTrend). The report would have to be printed, stapled, reviewed for possible redaction and delivered to City Hall. It’s about 12 hours (726 minutes) of work, total involving three people and perhaps on average 5 pages per incident. The costs would $480.49 plus the copying and paper charges. Please let me know if you have any questions.” So this is 1 of 3, so this is all that exhibit there are right here. It looks like it’s through some sort of official public records format. VLS: Okay. Were you involved in responding to this public records request or were you consulted prior to the October 21 - ? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah, I was consulted. That’s where – cause he – this is where the coercive conversation took place. He said to me, what do you think, how long would it take to look up? I said well it took a couple of minutes to run cause I’m going to run a spreadsheet for all the data I can and then pare it down. So, you know, maybe six minutes per call. And then he just took off with this math. And I went, I don’t think it’s going to take that long. And he said well, there’s a lot of stuff to do. So he came up with an estimate like that seemingly to me and I was taken aback by it because, listen, I don’t want to spend all my – I’ve got too many things to do. This, you know, every day that I’m off, if I don’t have my personal e-mail on my phone, slows me down. And so, not my personal e-mail, but work e-mail. It’s vital. There’s too many - 64 - things going on and we could use extra people to help do it. With all of the things going on with the new CAD system and all the changes that are taking place there. But to estimate the time, means you should give your most accurate estimate and I just feel that, plus whatever other ones he has done, like this other one here, I don’t think they’re accurate. I think that they’re inflated. VLS: Okay. Do you have any estimate of the amount of time that would have been required to respond to this public records request? And, by the way, I’m marking as, for the record, #13, the e-mail chain that begins October 21, 2014. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Actually it may end that day. VLS: I’m sorry, the end of it is that day. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: The – I’d have to go back to see what the request is. I was just pointing something because of the time. Okay, he writes here, “Please do not fulfil the request until you receive notification to proceed. For your convenience, attached is a copy of the Resolution (Public Records Schedule Fee) would help you in calculating the cost estimate.” So, it looks like there’s a cost estimate and I, you know, because I’ve run, I’ve run so many reports, I can’t tell you if this particular one was filled or not. VLS: Is there – did you bring any other documents relative to inflation of the time or charges for public records request responses? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t believe so. VLS: Okay. Any other examples that are maybe not, don’t have documentation associated with them? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Relative to events at the time? VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Do you need to make [illegible]? VLS: Oh, was that – I think we’ve got - . BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. This is the only copy of this I have. VLS: Okay, this is what I had as #6. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Okay. VLS: I think this just got stuck on there. Oh, we have not marked this yet. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. That’s just my notes if you want my notes. VLS: Yes. I will, but I haven’t marked it yet. - 65 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Okay. VLS: Let’s move on to, because you’ve made reference to the promotion, the recent promotion of Battalion Chief of Training, Pennington. And I want to make sure that we’ve adequately covered that topic from your perspective. Did you believe that – well first of all, are you familiar with Battalion Chief Pennington’s qualifications? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: What I have is what the Chief sent out to the department on September, or a memorandum, dated September 18, 2015. And it’s announcing that he is the new Training Chief and that it was a difficult decision based upon those within and outside of the department who had expressed an interest in the position. Not necessarily a process. However, and I guess as the Chief, he has the discretion to do that. It just hasn’t been the way we’ve done it which, you know. But when you look at his – I have his work experience here in front of me and then I have had some conversations to note that he is not currently a certified fire instructor. He’s not, he’s never actually took the State of Florida Pump Operator’s test to be a Driver Engineer. We require that you pass that here to be a Driver Engineer and I spoke with him this morning regarding one of my employees on my shift who is looking to take the Driver Engineer test and he can’t tell me if we’ve got a lock down test or not. He’s talking to the Chief about the test and he wants to keep it the same or he had other ideas. So, we’ve got a guy who’s been asking now. We’ve waited patiently and now this guy’s made an official request and I was nervous. I actually reached out to him and it took – and I had to reach out to him twice to get him to answer me on what do I do. Because I don’t want the department to be in a grievance situation. I’m not giving this guy the test in the timely matter laid out by the contract. And, I sent the e-mail out to all Battalion Chiefs and the Chief looking for direction. So, you know, we’re getting there. You know, I don’t have a dislike of him in any way shape or form and perhaps if he had won out through a traditional process, then we wouldn’t even be sitting here today. I don’t know. VLS: Through a traditional process meaning an official posting? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: An official posting so that more than just the eyes of a guy who worked with him on the other coast was, you know. I mean if you’re going to post it and open it up to everybody in the world that is one thing. But, it wasn’t posted so everybody in the world – it was just who he knew. VLS: Alright. As far as, again the traditional process. having tested. You said something about BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. Typically, at least in the areas, around this area that I’m familiar with and we’ve done from within, is there have been, there has been examples of written exercises to also interview process as well as scenario based efficiency testing essentially to see their command control skills. [illegible] the Battalion Chief’s level job, he should be able to come in, any of these candidates, should be able to come in and, if not run a scene, at least be able to run part of a scene and that’s the approach that we’ve have here and other departments as well. Until after my - 66 - promotion, in which case since that time it’s been an Excel spreadsheet list or, and there’s been nobody – usually a promotional process involves more than just one person deciding who is promoted. There’s usually a recommendation made by a group of people so you have different perspectives. VLS: Who would normally, in the past, who has been involved? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: In lieutenant’s processes, we brought in Chief Officers or Assistant Chief Officers from other departments, other ranking Battalion Chiefs, and even lieutenants from other departments as well as in-house people and try to put together a process that would be as open as possible so that you were trying to promote what appeared to be both in their resume, in their evaluations and in their presentation, the best possible candidate. Anybody can go in there and have a bad day and somebody that could be your best lieutenant could go in there and have a bad day. I’ve seen it happen. And I’ve seen people in there that really blossomed in there that you weren’t expecting. So, it’s an interesting format to see how somebody handles the stress, you know. So that’s – VLS: Do you know if any of those exercises were involved in the selection of Pennington, a written exercise, a scenario process interview? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. If he did it, he did it by himself somewhere else that we were, you know. Prior to this announcement, we were under the impression we were waiting on something from HR. VLS: I’m going to mark as #14 the document you’ve been referring to which is the formal memorandum of September 18, 2015. And how you know that – how do you know that Pennington does not have the certified fire instructor? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: He said it in the office. VLS: Pennington did? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: And what about the other thing you mentioned which was the pump test? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: He said he took the class, but he never took the test. Now, that’s not to say that, that’s like, that’s like indicating that I couldn’t supervise somebody who is a paramedic because I’m not a paramedic. But you have to recognize there is a limitation at some point. You know, if you’re going to teach people in the department or you’re going to let somebody else teach people in the department, and that’s really, you know. We’re looking, based on the memorandum, to increase our EMS presence or our emphasis on EMS, at least in the documentation that I’ve been kind of pushing for here, based on what I am getting from the Chief. And so this guy comes in here as a paramedic from Ft. Lauderdale. Nothing wrong with that. I’m sure he’s seen quite a bit of stuff. But he doesn’t know the protocols that we work under and they’re very specific and have to be taught. And I don’t, I don’t even know whether he - 67 - can teach those protocols, having not been certified by our medical director. And that’s just another question that I don’t have the answer to, but it seems that when you had four paramedics that are all certified working under Dr. Dober(sp?), at least they’re familiar with protocols and there are some differences. VLS: When did – Pennington came on board in September? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I think he came on board October. I think that was in the announcement. VLS: And have you had an opportunity to interact with him since he started? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes, yes. VLS: Any observations that are pertinent to the inquiry that I’m engaged in that you want to offer with regard to Pennington’s performance? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: He hasn’t really had to do anything. He did teach an airway class that recently, you know, he had a hands-on skills thing for airway classes and I thought that he interacted well with the personnel and he seems personable enough. You know, [illegible] person. There’s definitely a – since all this stuff is broken down there’s been a, and I say it’s broken down because it’s dysfunctional situations, there’s definitely a divide within the operation, but Chief Pennington seems like a good guy. VLS: Anything else related to the third bullet point in the Union’s letter which is that: The Chief’s misrepresentations, exaggerations and outright mendacity have created a lack of trust between the Chief and City’s fire-rescue personnel. As a result, the Chief has lost the ability to effectively lead the City’s firefighters? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It specifically brings a separate point up, would be to, you know, I think that there’s a lot of area that these kind of cross over. VLS: And it doesn’t need to be specific to that point. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Right. VLS: I could more or less open it up to what, what additional points you thought were relevant, if that is an easier approach to take. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well – VLS: Understanding that my mission is to conduct an inquiry or investigation into the no confidence vote that is expressed in the October 21 letter. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Sure. I guess what I would, because I wasn’t really sure what the format was and so I printed a bunch of stuff and I already had stuff in this - 68 - notebook that – I wanted to make sure that, you know, I don’t want to leave any, anything off the table. VLS: Okay, well let’s go through, let’s go through what additional points are appropriate. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Okay. Well, and I think it goes back to the trustworthy part of this on much of it. We have a rating that happens, called ISO. We may have touched on it earlier. VLS: We did, but I’m not sure we comprehensively covered it so. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: What I’ll be sending you is, and I haven’t written to Chief Vogel or Tom Vogel, but I never got the stuff that he had sent and I wanted to see it and I’ve got pictures of stuff that he took that points out to some of the stuff that took place. So I have a couple documents that I’m going to give you, some that I have to forward to you later. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: But it goes into him trying to build a case for why, why he’s the trustworthy factor. I have an e-mail here that’s in March 23, 2012 and this concerning wood shingled roofs. In this thread, at some point here it stated that Councilman Finlay brought up the subject of wood shingled roofs. In fact, at one point, the City Manager writes, “As I recall, it was ISO representative who mentioned his observation that shake were installed. I also understood that he told us that ISO considers the higher demand structures.” Somewhere here, let me see, I want to find the words. This was written by Chief McInerny: “Please remember that this wood shingle issue is an ISO concern and factor. I didn’t bring up the issue. It was unfortunately Councilman Doug Finlay who brought up the subject to the ISO inspector insisting that the homes in Naples were constructed of highly resistant roofs of concrete and tile. Sometimes I may best just not to push the envelope unless you have all the facts. Mike Morash from ISO then responded that wood shingle roofs require additional needed – VLS: Can you slow down just a little bit. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I’m sorry. Too much coffee. VLS: Start with the last sentence. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: This is where the Chief writes: “Sometimes it may be best not to push the envelope unless you have all the facts. Mike Morash from ISO then responded that wood shingle roofs requires additional needed water flow requirements. This presents a problem when we already have potable water deficiencies in that area.” I think this is a big deal. And I’ll tell you why. - 69 - VLS: Okay, I’m going to mark this document you’ve read from as #15. continue. Please BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Before Doug Finlay, the Councilmember, ever met with anybody from ISO and before ISO even came here, but specifically ISO, Mike Morash, I was required, or asked by the Chief, to take him and this inspector out onto the fireboat and go through Port Royal and go through Keewaydin Island and point out all these – I just took him up and down canals and where the Chief pointed out all these wood shingled roofs. VLS: Okay, you were on – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I was on the fireboat with the Chief and this investigator, and not only did it happen with the ISO, but it happened with the company prior to ISO, that was hired to come in and do a preliminary work up for us. So to indicate and then to slap the City Councilmember and say it like as if, you know, he let the cat out of bag, mendacity. You know, that’s absolutely false. I sat on that boat and watched him do it. And – VLS: Meaning pointing out? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Pointing out these issues to them. And, you know, he made it a point at every turn, to point out any issue he could to make it look like as if we weren’t capable of handling something, and with the [illegible] of more trucks and more personnel. But, it was, he went out of his way to do it. It wasn’t just something that happened. There was a specific purpose and then in this letter to the City Manager, he’s blaming Finlay for it. And that’s, that is – VLS: Okay. When, who else was on the boat when you made the trip through Port Royal and Keewaydin, you, the Chief and Mike Morash? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Mike Morash. VLS: Who is the inspector from ISO? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: When did the ISO inspection take place? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I think it was in 2012. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: So, you know, that was frustrating because I felt like and when I read that, I thought this is, you know, it’s over the top. It’s trying your darndest to make this investigation, this research done by ISO, to go in the direction that is as negative as possible for the department which he saw as a positive. And so, and then it was to me, it was lying. You’re telling, you’re telling anybody who reads this - 70 - that it’s Finlay that brought it up. Like he’s the enemy here. And the reality of it is, Finlay didn’t bring it up. This one I felt was interesting. This is a Julius Halas and this is at the State of Florida, CFO’s Office. And this one here he just says, “Good morning Chief Halas – I hope all is well in the Northern Front! I wanted to give you a heads up and make sure that you see the attached documents that I believe was mailed out yesterday. My Fire Marshall Larry Bacci has had a couple of conversations with your Chief of Fire Prevention Casia Sinco on the subject of NFPA 1 over the last few weeks.” He goes on to say, “The City of Naples continues to permit the construction of huge single family homes that would range between two and four stories.” So he goes on in this e-mail to talk about, you know, lack of water. So he’s alerting the State of this problem. He’s trying to bring grief down upon us. And, in one sense, you know, if we’re doing something that’s inappropriate, you would applaud that. But if the governing body has determined that, you know, we’re okay with this, then bring it to [illegible]. But to go out of your way to then, you know, advise, you know, trying to just paint the picture for the State. VLS: Okay, we’ll mark that as #16. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: This next request is misleading. This is an e-mail with attachment, March 13, 2015. This is an e-mail to Jed Secory. VLS: Can you spell that? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: This is J E D and then Secory, S E C O R Y. And his is a sole source request. This is indicating we want to buy from these people, but they’re the only people that can provide this. And, please see the attached memorandum accompanying quote as it relates to the new fireboat. So he sends this in March to get this approved. And what he’s trying to do is get our fire-rescue boat signage and emergency lights installed. And, he decided to pick the company that’s building our new rescue truck on the east coast. The problem I have is we’ve outfitted several trucks that weren’t through this company and this was the first boat they’ve ever worked on. So to say its sole source, it was a twisting of the facts because they had never had a boat there. I was with him when we dropped it off and we went through the stuff. And it took them three months. Now, we didn’t have a boat. So, I didn’t get it into service until right at the end of June, like the second of July I got it in service because it took them three months to get the work done. When I went over there, it still wasn’t done. So, you know, he talks about this manufacturer there building new rescue trucks, the company provided outstanding workmanship and attention to detail and that, unfortunately, is not easily found and/or secured from all manufacturers. VLS: What other sources were there for the fire-rescue boat? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, there’s, there’s lots of companies that install lights and do graphics. VLS: Okay, that’s what we’re talking about, lights and graphics? - 71 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes, lights and graphics. Now at first, when he first sent it to them, he was going to have them do a lot of other stuff, you know. And I pared it down [illegible]. We can’t even do that stuff yet. So, this is just to me an example of a twist. You know, why are you convinced that EVI is the place to go in West Palm Beach to do this stuff stating that, you know, it’s a sole source. And that’s typically, you know, if you’re going to buy a Boston Whaler. You can only buy a Boston Whaler from Boston Whaler Brunswick. So that’s a sole source to me, but having lights and graphics added, is not sole source. So, you know. VLS: Thank you. We’ll mark the documents related to the outfitting of the fire-rescue boat and sole source as #17. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I was hoping this whole process was going to feel cathartic. It’s not. This was a call, and I’ve got – this is a large – I don’t know whether to divide it up at. I printed it the first time I saw it and I found additional threads that I printed from where, and this is in reference to an airport call. I was not on duty, but did speak to the Battalion Chief that was on duty. VLS: Who was the Battalion Chief on duty? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Lt. Homan. VLS: Thank you. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And it was fuel leak out at the airport. And so when you go through the e-mails, what happens is, you know, you’ll have the initial one he sent out that I printed up because he states in this particular call, as a fuel spill at the airport. “The second spill is reported at 13:r29 hours at Aviation Drive, Crash Fire 3, Crash Rescue 3 responded.” VLS: Slow down, please. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: “Crash Fire 3, Crash Rescue 3 responded on the initial alarm and found a Hawker jet leaking fuel from both wing vents. The aircraft had recently been filled with fuel and the expansion of the fuel due to temperature caused it to leak out vents on both wings and onto the tarmac. Personnel assisted NAA personnel with the application of oil dry to approximately 7-10 gallons of jet fuel. Crash Fire #3 set up at the nose of the aircraft in pump mode in case of ignition. Engine 2 and Battalion 1 were added to the response for manpower and incident management and safety requirements. Fire-Rescue personnel remained on the scene until fuel was no longer leaking from the aircraft. NAA staff were able to contact the pilot via cellular telephone and relieve the fuel vapor pressures and thus stop the leaks. If you have any question let me know.” That’s the original e-mail. VLS: From the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: This is from the Chief to the City Manager. - 72 - VLS: Thank you. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And this is one of his noteworthy incidents and it starts with a picture of a Marine. So part of this document, and then the thread continues and the reason this is of value to me is because I had a call while my Battalion Chief was going. He felt pressure to make sure he got pictures of our personnel standing around this aircraft where there was no longer a fuel leak, nor was there ever 7-10 gallons. I had been told that it was much less. VLS: And this was Acting Battalion Chief Homan and Lt. Howard? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Homan and Lt. Howard, who you are scheduled to meet with, was the Incident Commander on this. And he probably could have shut down a response at all if he had been, if he, if he knew what was going to happen. I don’t know. I mean, the thing is that every time there is a call at the airport, they become very sensitive because every picture ends up in the paper and the airport gets pissed off that we’re sending out information before they can or will. And so, there’s – so the Chief is giving it – so there’s push back. VLS: Why do you, why do you believe that Lt. Homan felt pressured to get pictures? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: He called me up and stated that. That, you know, it doesn’t sound like we have anything, but I guess we’re just going to go anyway and look at it. Then when he, you know, then there’s, you know, the Chief wants pictures and everything. So then he took these pictures and he put [illegible] and these guys were just walking around. There was literally nothing for them to do. But he puts it out to make it look like these guys, I mean, what does that look like to you? VLS: Well, I’m not going to say anything. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, what I’m telling you is it looks like fireman working at a plane and perhaps there’s oil dry on the ground there that’s absorbing fuel. By the time this picture was taken, there was nothing to do. There was nothing on the ground. There was not 7-10 gallons of fuel on the ground. VLS: Was this like an re-enactment or? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Hard to say it was a re-enactment. I guess he just [illegible] pointed out where everything is at. VLS: I see. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: But, from what I understand, because he was my lieutenant that was working as the Acting BC, there was a – he was uncomfortable with the way this thing went down. And there was a lot of questions and a lot of, you know. VLS: And I guess he would be the person to ask about how much fuel? - 73 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Dave Howard would be the one to ask. VLS: Dave Howard. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. And he’s due on the third. VLS: Because he was the Incident Commander? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: Okay, thanks. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: So, the Chief writes to the City Manager, “Per our conversation, NAA Operations Manager, Ryan Frost, is providing incorrect information to Ted Soliday (who is a Director out there). Either they failed to pay attention or intentionally look to downplay our response and mitigation work ethics. The fuel spill was a slow leak and ARFF was only called to provide clean up. According to NAA staff no other units ever responded to the Airport. Only the Airport ARFF staff and equipment.” Because it was already done by the time our extra personnel got there. So, and then he writes, “Please take a look at the two photographs since pictures provide clear evidence? These photographs are on the General Aviation ramp inside the secured fenced area of the City of Naples Airport. Note the photograph on the right that clearly shows four fire-rescue vehicles. Two of which are yellow and two of which are Naples Fire-Rescue Department units, Engine 2 with a crew of three personnel and Battalion 1 with a crew of one! The photograph on the left clearly depicts two City of Naples Fire-Rescue personnel in structural firefighting equipment that are assigned to Engine 2 members and the hazardous materials team!” Now, because it came in as a fuel leak and a possible hazard, they were, in fact, hazardous materials team members. Not a lie. They weren’t doing anything. And, but, the pictures are clear evidence is what he states here. But, what I’m here to state is that what I’ve been told, there was nothing for them to do when they were there. That there was never a big enough spill to warrant this. VLS: And the people that are on the – that would have – be able to give direct personal observation would – you would say would be David Howard, the Incident Commander? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Dave Howard, and Dean Homan was the BC, Acting BC that day. And then a part of this thread, you know, now you got him explaining that to the City Manager. The City Manager then writes to Ted Soliday, “There’s a concern that the NAA is not getting information related to responses provided to the airport facility. Is there a downside to reporting the same information to the NAA as is provided to City Council?” Because I think Ted gets back feed from somebody on Council. “If you believe the reports are inaccurate please let me know.” There’s information here from Ted Soliday to, from his Director of Operations so it’s the second in command. “NAA Operations staff noticed that the fuel leak mid-day on the 1st and notified the Duty Officer to send a crew with materials to clean it up. The Duty Officer called station 3 to come over and provide additional clean up help. The flight crew was notified to come - 74 - out and transfer fuel out of the wings to relieve the pressure. The fuel spill was a slow leak and ARFF was only called to provide clean up help. According to NAA staff no other – .” So, it’s a matter of perspective, you know. How many different sides of the story are there? But, this is just another example of my bosses’ side is always an exaggeration. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I’m not sure this is a part – 106. So this is all. Some of it is duplication. The way that I was printing, it wouldn’t just print the final thread, so. [Illegible] want. No, this is different. VLS: Okay, we’re going to make everything relating to the fire spill incident at the airport, I guess that was back in April of this year? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: I’m marking that as #18. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Okay. I mentioned earlier, and I’ll, I’ll, I’ll go by notes, but I’m staring at the last piece of paper I had in this section and this was sent to myself and everyone else in the staff as an FYI from the Chief. It was received, it looks like, Marvin Easton sent something to perhaps John Sorey, who then sent it to the Mayor to the City Manager. “I found the 6pm channel 2 news interesting. They said the CCSO was in charge of the search for the missing person. The Coast Guard had at least one boat and a chopper in the hunt. CCSO (Collier County Sheriff’s Office) had a boat on the water and a chopper in the air. All busy looking for the missing person. However, the Naples Fire Department had plenty of time to quit looking and take a channel 2 news reporter and camera person on board to give them a ride and show them the electronics on the fireboat!” This is in conjunction with other opportunities to selfpromote. We’re in the middle of a search and rescue operation for a missing boat who was never found. And they are ordered to come back and wait at the dock until channel 2 can get there and get on the boat. Tim Bruener was the BC that day. It’s unconscionable to me that if you’ve got an active search and rescue mission that you would delay. If have to come back and get fuel, change personnel, something that’s required, yes. But wait at the dock for a missing – I mean this was absolutely - . VLS: Okay, we’ve marked this as #19. Were you personally? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. But when I got the e-mail, I’d already known about it because I’d seen the report on TV and talked to the Battalion Chief that was on that day. VLS: Meaning Bruener? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Bruener. And it, it tied into the fire we had on Fifth Avenue where I responded from home. It was a very cold morning earlier this year. I think it was in February. We had a fire with a fatality on Fifth Avenue. And he was - 75 - putting the press on the aerial, you know, to get pictures of the fire scene. And I, you know, I remember that day. The Battalion Chief on duty was Pete DiMaria that was telling me that the Fire Marshall was just pissed off that he was, you know. You’re in the middle of a fatality investigation, you got reporters taking pictures down the middle of his thing, and he’s not done and I guess the Chief’s response to him, “We invited you here.” VLS: Who was the Fire Marshall? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: The State Fire Marshall. VLS: The State Fire Marshall was there. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t know who that was. VLS: And you’re saying that it was still under? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It was still under investigation. VLS: And who was up on the aerial? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: News reporters. VLS: And were you on that scene at Fifth Avenue? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I worked the scene as I came in. Yeah, I responded in from home and assisted. VLS: Did you see the? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I left before the news crews got there. VLS: Okay, thank you. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Here’s a – let’s go back to promotions. I’m just going to give you everything I got. This was an e-mail sent out October 2011 indicating that Marc SanAngelo is leaving us for the great snowy state of Colorado. And he writes, “I have come up with a total of three candidates, two internal and one external. I created a spreadsheet that outlines the key issues in terms of background, formal education and training certificates. I did not repeat medical skills required for recertification. Please review the attached document and be prepared to offer me your personal and confidential recommendation.” VLS: What’s the significance of that document, which we’ll mark as #20. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: This was replacing Marc SanAngelo with a new Training Chief. And what’s significant is that he’s pointing the PSSi, saying we have a promotional process and he mirrors him saying their the same lieutenants and Battalion Chiefs. And yet, he’s put together a spreadsheet which he had already. I mean, the - 76 - rumors were out there. We knew that he was hiring Chief Moyer before he ever put this out. And, Marc even asked him, “are you coming to work here.” And, of course, he denied it. But then shortly thereafter started. So he, you know, he - not saying that Chief Moyer wasn’t qualified, but don’t tell people you have the same promotional process or that you use a process when in reality, there was no process. There is, I’m picking this guy. That’s the thing. You know, it goes back, he has the authority, but don’t misrepresent. Just say, I believe I have the best skills to determine who should do what and at least stand by that. But, you know, to correct PSSi when, in fact, they were correct. Alright, this goes back to, this, it just, this is such a weird day. This is discussion of, and when he first came on to the job here, he indicated that he was going to do this strategic plan and he wanted everyone to e-mail him. And this is in his very first meetings that he did with all the stations. I’m not going to take no for an answer. We’re going to do things my way. And, you know, that he was really going to make sure that Council and the City knew exactly how it had to be done. Everybody’s cheerful, saying, oh, we got a strong Chief coming in and he’s going to, he going to get us moving in the right direction. And for this, what he wants is a strategic plan. He started talking about some of the issues and he right away grabbed, what everybody had indicated was the worst thing that we needed to fix, and that was our existing relationship with Collier County EMS, as far as our working relationship. We get along with them fine. Our personnel work together very well. But, we didn’t like this partnership that we had. And he made it clear he was going to get rid of that. Politically, difficult to do because there is one Medical Director, and if you’ve seen the papers, you know that North Naples, North Collier Fire and Collier County are arguing over what kind of rights the paramedics can have in North Collier. So, it’s a complicated situation. But, at some point, he writes to the City Manager to let him know that we’ve had a number of people. And here’s the memorandum he sent talking about how many people have pulled out, that he has no choice but to cease involvement with the ALS partnership and he’s going to end it. And that he’s going to work – VLS: This is that Advanced Life Support? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. The ALS Partnership Swat Program is what he refers it to it as here. And, you know, indicates that he is going to work on trying to come up with another option, which makes sense. Now, the relevance is that in the beginning, he said he was going to end it and it took the person – the members decided that they could no longer work this way, that they decided on their own to start dropping out of the program which forced his hand. That’s first issue. What happened next – VLS: Let me stop you there. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Sure. VLS: So you’re saying that these documents that we’re going to mark as #21, that by this time the firefighters had, or the paramedics, had dropped out of the program? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: In 2009, when he came in, he heard them. He said we’re going to do a strategic plan and we’re going, we’re going to figure out what’s first, - 77 - second, third. Send me all your e-mails and we’re going to do this. And that’s the last he gave of that. It never went anywhere. And I found articles in Fire Engineering and Fire Chief Magazine. They were just, they’re funny about how we’re great crisis managers in the fire service, but planners aren’t necessarily, you know, our forte. You know, it’s what the article talks about. I found it – I actually left it out on the desk because it’s almost comical. But in 2012, they finally, there was a partnership agreement within the contract that allowed the paramedics to drop out of the program voluntarily. They weren’t forced to do it, to continue to receive their pay. And so they finally had had enough and they, they decided to do it on their own. And so, you know, he said he would explore other possibilities and come up with another plan, which, you know, once again, there was no input from staff, to my knowledge. But, what he then did, is he started bringing in personnel that had dropped out. And I’ll mention the one person that I spoke to because he was irritated by what happened was he was pulled in, and that was Lt. Baltadonta(sp?) who works for me. And I wrote the term on my note here, “bullied.” He was brought in and basically bullied by the Chief about pulling out. And he brought in others as well, but I don’t know who. And he had them come in their office by himself and basically beat him up for quitting, you know. VLS: Is there a grievance over this? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t know. VLS: Okay, keep going. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: So, that’s this part two of this whole conversation. The part 3 of it would be that we have individual shift meetings with the Chief when he started, put together a different version of an ALS program which was non-voluntary, which was that we would ride into the hospital and all ALS calls. There was a lot of workings here with this as far as all calls or all ALS calls and you would have to decide which ALS call. Is it just anything called ALS? It seemed to me you’re trying to provide the best service possible and you pay these people, firefighters – paramedics - and Battalion Chiefs, to do the best job that they can. To have them use their base knowledge to interpret what they see before them and make the right decisions. But he put a plan together that said, okay, no matter what, you’re going to ride to the hospital. So, anytime you have a person that says, you know, I’m having difficulty breathing that they’ve got a cold. Well, breathing, we’re going to give you a treatment. We’ll give you a breathing treatment. I’ve had them. I’m sure you’ve had them. When you give medication, it, I believe you’re now calling this an Advanced Life Support. You’re no longer talking about direct pressure, you’re talking about advanced skills. So it now takes that unit out of service. And when you take that unit out of service, you’ve got one less vehicle to respond. In season, now you’ve got multiple calls going on and multiple people riding to the hospital, effectively, you know, making it difficult to respond to even a basic call. At some point and time during season, it happens. And you’re looking for mutual aid response. And the problem is that if you tell everybody, if you handcuff them – there was, there was push back – a lot of discussion back and forth and firefighters asking me and I’m looking for direction, you know. Because you’re going to go to the hospital with somebody, and the medics are like, I got this. This is not a three-person - 78 - attentive call. Well, you’ve got the EKG machine on as a part of your thing and the EKG machine, the 12 lead is on, so it’s called ALS now, so I gotta go. Now that truck’s out of service going to the hospital and in some cases, out of service going to Physicians Regional. If it’s a true medical emergency, somebody’s not electing to go all the way out to Physician’s Regional on Pine Ridge. So now we’re taking that unit out of service. They’ve got to drive out there, get them and I don’t believe, you know. I’d like to hand you the smoking gun, but I believe that in my conversation was that, you know, that’s going to create a bind on us. And he said, yeah, yeah, you’re going to have to call for additional resources from outside the County. It’s an attempt to further make us more susceptible to not having enough units or personnel to handle call loads. Which, you know, with the density changes, we are, we are having more calls. So we’re busier than we were, [illegible] the annex property. Yeah, he’s right about that. But it’s not for true medical emergencies at all times, it’s just under the qualification. VLS: And did you, I want to make sure I’ve got this correct, did you tell him that it was going to cause a bind? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: And his response was? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, you know, you’re just gonna have to call for mutual aid, you know. Do what you gotta do. VLS: Okay. And this is back in what timeframe? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It would have, you know, been post September 2012. VLS: Okay. Let’s stop for a minute. I’m going to turn off the recorder for maybe about 10 minutes. What I think I’d like to do is maybe get some copy work going. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Okay. VLS: So if we can just take about 5 to 10 minute break. So it was, I’m sorry. It’s 1:30 and we’re going on break. VLS: Okay, we will go back on the record. It’s now about ten of two and we left off in the interview where I was just letting Battalion Chief Nichols discuss the documents that he brought to this interview and discussed their significance from his viewpoint. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I have a document here, January 23, 2012. This is directed from Chief McInerny to Michael Morash. He was the person heading up the ISO, the ISO review for the City. In this e-mail he points out to the investigator or the, I don’t know what to call him, the representative from ISO, that we are short a minimum of two personnel each day. And that he then goes on to give the direction to the person doing the rating for the City, Michael Morash. We could add 9 personnel to each shift or we can add 12 personnel suggesting, you know. Instead of allowing this gentleman to make his findings and recommendations, in order to get what he wanted, he was - 79 - suggesting to this person what we could do and this ties into the meetings we had in the office where he was trying to make sure that he was giving the information to this person so that they could phrase things in the way that would help push the City to grow the size of the fire department. VLS: And you’ve marked that as #22? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Now this also relates to ISO so I don’t know if you wanted to include it. VLS: Why don’t we go ahead and put a separate tab on that, #23. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: #23 – this is simply a map that was printed. It, it, it states simply for this investigator from ISO from the Chief, “Please see the attached map that outlines the City and how the City grew incrementally with annexations. You will note that Keewaydin Island has been in the City although perhaps not developed until after the last ISO rating inspection.” So, just pointing out that since ISO was there, here’s how much we grew. He’s not just saying here’s the City, he’s saying here’s how much bigger we are. VLS: So, you’re not saying it’s inaccurate, it’s just that – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I’m not saying it’s accurate. It just once again goes to the ISO component of this where he was doing everything he could to promote the notion that we needed to grow our department because the size of the City had grown. And I’m not saying, I’m not even rationalizing that that’s good, bad or indifferent. I just felt that the methods were underhanded because on one hand, he’s saying we’re going to be open and honest and on the other hand, he’s going out of his way at times to make sure that he’s having the outcome he wants rather than whatever it is that the true outcome should be. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Also, on ISO, this is an e-mail that I was directed to write. This one is dated November 15, 2012. And we had, we had since had a clash on this, but this e-mail was a follow up. When we didn’t get the ISO rating the Chief was looking for, there was a lot of pressure on him to get back to the ISO 2 instead of the 3 that we were given. And the Council was, you know, trying to get that to happen without spending a large sum of money. So now the Chief went into his mode of trying to now, instead of trying to push hard for the [illegible] already, now he’s trying to get back the two. Part of the process of point systems that ISO has, is to state that when you have your reserve apparatus, they have to be kept under cover. In this e-mail, I wrote to Mike Morash, “I spoke to Chief McInerny regarding the reserve apparatus. He informed me to tell you that on Friday he would be directing that the reserve units be stored in two - 80 - locations. One truck will be inside Fire Station #1 and the other will be inside Fire Station #3. Please let me know if there is anything else I can assist with.” I’m going to put an asterisk next to that paragraph. This one was a big deal for me because he had me lie to this gentleman because I asked him – KNOCK AT DOOR VLS: Come in, come in. Okay, I’m going off the record for just a minute and it’s about seven of two. VLS: Okay, we took a brief break. We’re back on the record. It’s a little before two. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I believe I was stating that on this e-mail on ISO to Michael Morash that I sent and copied our command staff, is that he had had me direct this e-mail to the ISO representative indicating that we would be storing our reserve units inside, which increases the number of points we get towards ISO. So we’re looking for those last few points to get us where we need to go. I asked him if had spoke to EMS yet, because EMS had a truck inside the bay where he was saying we were going to put our bay, our truck, and he was gruff with me. He said I haven’t spoken to him yet. When I brought it back up at a later date, he was quite agitated and didn’t want to discuss it. Basically what happened is that this was sent out to them, sent out to ISO, indicating we were doing something and there was never any intent, nor did we follow up and make sure it took place, so we lied. Not going to mince words. We lied to get more points so we could get the ISO 2 rating back, at least in this field. VLS: Okay. Will you put a #24 on that? What reserve apparatus – were either of the reserve apparatus put under cover? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: None of the reserve apparatus and then we had a couple that they were left outside of Station 2 in the elements. And that’s – they don’t want them out in the elements because they deteriorate and become less reliable. And so that’s – VLS: Alright. I’m going to make sure we get these - . VLS: Okay, back on the record. Again a little before two. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: The conversation continued to go back and forth with ISO with several incidents. He – I don’t believe that this has any – there’s an e-mail here that I’m looking at to see if it would be something helpful towards making any kind of determination, but basically the Chief was asking the ISO gentleman to indicate whether there’s a difference between mutual aid and automatic aid. We had signed automatic aid agreements in the past with other districts. But, the term automatic and mutual aid have been kind of used as one of the same and that’s probably inaccurate because a mutual aid request is different than automatic aid. Automatic aid refers to it is automated. It comes naturally without any extra steps. So while we have had automatic aid agreements, and I have a copy of an automatic aid agreement, it was meaning that we would help you and you would help us. But he’s been very strong to - 81 - point out that automatic aid could only happen if we’re on one CAD system. So anytime anybody brought up the word automatic aid, he was very quick to shut it down and he utilized that opportunity here to point out the difference between the two with this ISO – VLS: Okay, so you’ve marked that as #25? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: Is that not true that you’re saying that the Chief said you can only truly have automatic aid if you’re only on one CAD system? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: He is correct. That has been a lot of pressure in recent years to make sure that we were getting as quick of a response as possible for whatever the emergency. And, while there is a difference between automatic aid and mutual aid, having agreements worked out ahead of time is helpful to make sure everybody understands that you’re on the same page. It appears to me through this process that he has used the argument to keep from having any agreements between area departments. By doing so, he might alleviate the need to respond. He didn’t want East Naples, which is now Greater Naples, to handle calls for us in the Horseshoe Drive area when us handling them creates a larger call volume. And, therefore, a greater need for more personnel, more trucks. And so I’ve watched him through the years systematically push aside these why don’t you do this type of thing or why don’t you do that kind of thing from different citizen groups and Councilmembers. His work in, and I detailed it here. I will go to my main document and refer to that. I’ll try to get the rest of my documents together. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: This next document – VLS: #26. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: 26. And it’s, it is from Chief McInerny to the Michael Morash from ISO and he has attached a map based on our hydrant system flows and he indicates, “You can clearly see that we have less than 1,000 GPM flows available on the south side of the City from basically Fifth Avenue South to Keewaydin Island which is in the City based on potable water hydrants. The NFPA requires 1,000 GPM for a house from 1 to 3600 square feet in size. As a result of the deficiency, we have been adding reclaimed hydrants in most of the deficient areas. Combining both hydrant systems, we may get approximately 900 gallon flows from the worst hydrants. The majority of the new single family homes are being built in the South end of the City and range in size from 4,000 square feet to over 15,000 square feet.” Now, two points here. One, he’s quickly pointing out the we had deficient flows in areas where the houses are bigger than what the water flows would go. If you were to say if this house is fully involved, what does the NFPA, National Fire Protection Association, require per gallon. So he’s pointing out bad things, once again. Now he is indicating that they’re putting in non-potable hydrants to help supplement. And the reason, and the reason that this is important is that recently he sat before Council and they said well, they questioned - 82 - about the water flow issues. And said when we put, we’re putting non-potable hydrants in that area of town, isn’t that going to help. He explained to them that he couldn’t use both hydrants on the fire because you could contaminate potable water with the nonpotable water. So on one hand, he’s telling Mike Morash, who is familiar with the fire industry, what we can do to help put out fires and we’ll gain more GPM, but then he’s telling Council you can’t use them at the same time because you might get the nonpotable water into the potable system, which I haven’t figured out how that would happen. VLS: Okay, so you believe – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I believe this, that he misrepresented what was capable, what our capabilities were before Council in a recent meeting. VLS: When was that meeting? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: That meeting was within the last month and a half to two months. VLS: Okay. Now, were you there at the meeting or you watched the video? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Watched it on TV. And that was #26. These last couple of documents, this goes to character, which I know isn’t, maybe that’s a part of the departments integrity, but you asked me if I could – how it has affected the trust between the fire-rescue personnel and I commented that I thought it had and then it affected me. Going back to April 24, 2014, the Chief forwarded us an e-mail which was basically a clipping from a newspaper article, that he had done research. Finlay has been a Councilmember for quite some time and he’s very thorough and has, I think, created a lot of problems for the Chief and constantly asking questions about why do you need this, why do you need that, and looking for documentation. The Chief decided to forward us information on this guy, on this Councilmember and he did research and forwarded us the research talking about a bomb that went off and that it killed, I guess is killed Councilmember’s father and subsequent jury settlements and, this is, this is going back to 1990. Sherwin Finlay, 70, was killed on March 19, 1990, by an exploding package left on his doorstep, investigators puzzled over who wanted him dead. And I don’t think it was specifically going after him necessarily and in my recollection, I printed this a long time ago. I printed this back in 2014. But I felt like we had somehow violated something here. That the Chief is, you know, 12:45 in the afternoon, sending us background information on the City Councilmember that he, that he, ultimately we all work for. You know, what does this have to do with anything. And this goes back to my, you know, mistrust. VLS: And this, I’m marking that #27. This, this – ? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: That’s a series of articles that he forwarded. VLS: Okay. And to whom? - 83 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: He sent that to all the staff. VLS: All staff? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Not just me. Everyone got it. VLS: Everyone within the fire department, not just the Battalion Chiefs? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No, not the – just the Battalion Chiefs. Staff I consider the City’s – the fire staff would be the BCs. VLS: Okay. Thank you. I’m glad I asked that. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: So another name that you may have heard if you follow news at all around here is Marvin Easton. Marvin Easton is a City resident who has been very much involved with some of the e-mails that I probably forwarded to you where he’s quoted or you may have asked a question of, in fact, one of them I think he asked a question or said something to Mayor Sorey and that prompted a question by Mayor Sorey. He sent us a, I’ve got the, from him, he started blind copying everybody. I know that the other Battalion Chiefs got this, but he writes at 5:18 the afternoon on July 22, 2014. “Good evening – It may be of interest to know that IBM equipment played a crucial role in the Holocaust in regards to railroads and shipping people targeted for the “Final Solution.” Modern historians suggest that without the mass transportation of the railways, the scale of the “Final Solution” would not have been possible. The extermination of people targeted in the “Final Solution” was dependent on two factors: the capacity of the death camps to gas the victims and process their bodies quickly enough, as well as the capacity of the railways to transport the condemned prisoners from the Ghettos in Nazi-occupied Germany and Jewish ghettos in German-occupied Poland to the extermination camps.” He highlighted “the train movements, originating inside and outside occupied Poland and terminating at death camps, were tracked by Dehomag using IBM-supplied card-reading machines.” Every e-mail that I’ve seen are often times when Marvin Easton’s name appears, it says, “retired IBM consultant.” He’s made numerous comments about Marvin Easton. His – he does not have a warm and fuzzy from Marvin Easton. But to send us this information to somehow you’re going to tie Marvin Easton into the, to this through the IBM to the what happened in 1944 in Germany, once again, you know, we have a lot of work to do. This isn’t one of them. VLS: Okay, you want to mark that, we’ll mark that #28. Now this particular document, #28, when out to whom? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I know that the other Battalion Chiefs received it. So, DiMaria and Bruener would have received that one as well. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: He started this kind of research a long time ago and I didn’t print out the article. I just, I printed the link he sent out. We had a firefighter that - 84 - left here disgruntled. He retired. His name was Jeff Bronson. He did the same research on Jeff Bronson. He sent us an article that he found, looks like through Google, on October 25, 2011. When this firefighter who has since retired, I guess he was, had an issue of falling asleep on a Coast Guard ship in the military and there was an article in the paper about it and he wanted us to see this. VLS: Okay. Mark that as #29. By the way, for example, #29, that document, when would you have printed that? Around the time that it came out or just recently? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: This one, I think this one I printed later. I printed the Holocaust one referencing Easton. VLS: #28? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: #28 and #27. I printed those early on. VLS: Contemporaneous with the time that they were being sent? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. I think I went back and printed this one. VLS: Alright. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: This – VLS: You’re looking at another document? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I’m looking at another document. VLS: Did you want to mark that #30? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. Might as well. This document, June 1, 2012 sent to Bill Moss from Chief McInerny and copied the command staff. VLS: And, I’m sorry. Command staff consists of? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Fire command staff, that would be the Fire Marshall, the Training Chief and the Battalion Chiefs. VLS: Thank you. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: As well as Kathy Brooke who has since been married. Kathy Carrington. In this particular one, this goes back to what he was talking about doing in 2012 of June. There was an e-mail sent from Doug Finlay where he talks about, you know, the fireboats and the stations and so forth. But he just, he was writing, “The first concern regarding a fireboat is a pumping capacity since it dictates the size and ultimately the cost of the vessel. We analyzed our needs and based on needed fire flows and submitted a CIP request in May of 2011 for an 1800 gallon per minute flow capacity vessel at a cost of $500,000. This request was unfortunately not funded. We are not submitting a request for a 1250 gallon Darley pump that will flow a max of 1563 - 85 - GPM. It is a 28-foot MetalCraft Fireboat with a monitor . . .” And he goes into the details here of that boat. And, at one point he talks about we have some funds available that are for impact use. This just show that, you know, if we analyzed it and determine that we needed 1800 GPM, within a matter of seconds he’s now talking about asking for a 1250 GPM pump. I’m not sure what his analysis is based on, because he didn’t, he didn’t discuss this with me. Not that’s he required to, but I’ve been the guy that’s been handling all the boat issues and I think that what he was – if you decided that ISO will give you a better rating with an 1800 GMP pump, and that’s what you decide you need, where’s the argument, the supporting evidence for that. But to suggest that we analyzed, I’m not sure what he means by we because at no point did anybody, at no point did I ever indicate that we needed an 1800 GPM pump. We just haven’t. You know, we’ve been working with a 200 gallon per minute pump for 25 years. And, I’m not saying that’s the best thing in the world. But to suggest that analyzed our needs, there’s been, and that goes back to the document I tried to print before I came this morning, which is he wanted me to show how we would use that boat with a high capacity pump. And this may have been from a Finlay request. And that’s where I’ll go back and look, but I produce an Excel document that was many pages long where I had to go through and highlight each fireboat possible handling it. The problem is, whenever you have a structure fire, and as he’s indicated with our minimum staffing, we’re all going to be there. There’s no way to go get this fireboat. So the idea that somehow this boat was going to help us with these fires is magical because nobody is going to be left to drive it. And a boat of that size, even the boat we have today, requires training and proficiencies to handle it and you don’t just say, throw the keys to somebody, can you bring this boat over? VLS: What would be required in your opinion to analyze this size, the GPM? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, the only thing I can suggest would be you would look at historical data and you would like at what your goal is. If your goal is strictly ISO based and you’re trying to say we have a capacity of this many gallons and that gets us pumps, so you spend $500,000 and you become an ISO 1. It that’s your goal, then that’s, I guess that’s your analysis. If you go on historical data, we haven’t had a boat yet, a boat fire or a fire where if we had the fireboat it would have been end-all solution. The, so the analysis based on past fires, and typically, if you look at what boats he wants to bring up, it’s all these very large boats, which are very difficult to fight fire in because of the compartmentation, the materials that are built. So, you almost have to approach it like a house fire, only it’s made out of fiberglass. So you have to enter the boat. If it gets too big, you’re not going to enter the boat. It’s too dangerous to enter the boat. And I’ve been in those calls. I’ve been down in the bilge filling with water, putting out fires. It’s not a great spot to be. And so, this big pump, you know, you see them in ports where you have large container ships or fuel ships, where they’re going to go, whether they’re going to be defensive in nature. They’re not going on board because there’s no hand lines that you’re going to push. I mean if you get a large vessel that’s on fire and it’s adrift in the bay, you’re still limited on what you’re going to be able to do because you’re just throwing water and foam up on to it and we just haven’t had those kinds of fires. Not to say that won’t have one, but then what Council does is they say well, it’s risk management. I mean, you know, what is our risk and what do we feel it’s - 86 - worth doing. There just hasn’t been. And Marco had a fire with a moderate size vessel and it blew up against the shoreline and most of the damage was all caused by the smoke blowing from the boat up into a building that was a fairly good size building and created quite a bit of damage from the smoke damage, from this thing burning. They didn’t have a large pump to put it out. And, so their Council did a 180 and funded a new fireboat. It’s not got that size pump on it, but, you know, it’s certainly a decent fireboat. VLS: But you’re saying there isn’t the historical data in Naples? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. There’s no data. So, to say that we analyzed, I just, I took as a little bit of [illegible] comment. Now what that leaves me with here on what I have is I wanted to just review the notes that I had been taking. VLS: Let’s mark that as #31. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Sure. VLS: These notes were created in anticipation of the interview? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: The notes were created going back to, I think I first started the typed version. I started handwritten notes before I went to see my father and his friend back in 2014 so that I would have something for that and I had, you know, like some of the documents you have here today. I’m sure I took there some of the [illegible]. Not to the extent that we have here. So I started – VLS: And this was before your 50th birthday celebration, that event? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. Yes. And it was a celebration. VLS: It should be. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: So, I’m just looking because this is, this is, a lot of this is personal to me and I don’t know how much of it needs explaining. And some it, a lot of it I’ve touched. What I didn’t touch here, and this goes back to a comment that I made earlier, I think I told you that, you know, the Ft. Lauderdale personnel said don’t cross him. But, we had a domestic violence issue that came up with a lieutenant in this department and he was later, all charges were dropped and he and his wife are still together years later. But, he got arrested and this guy was devastated, you know. VLS: The lieutenant that was arrested was devastated? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. And so I actually put him up in my house. I had a spare bedroom. One of my kids had actually moved out for a little bit of time, before moving back. And, so while they were working out the details on whether or not he - 87 - would be able to come to work while this was going on until he had his day in court, so to speak, which it never got to, the Chief pulled me in the office and he also did the same thing to Chief DiMaria and told me that if this lieutenant does anything wrong, I will be fired. VLS: Who will be fired? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: If this lieutenant makes a mistake, me, Mike Nichols, the Battalion Chief, will be fired. And, I thought he was joking. And I said, “Sir that’s a joke.” He said, “No, I’m serious. Somebody’s going to have to get fired if this guy makes a mistake and that’s just the way it is.” He told the same thing then to Chief DiMaria, I was told. And I’m pretty positive Kathy Carrington, the Executive Assistant, also heard that conversation. VLS: Which one? The one with DiMaria? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: With me, with me. She’s quite scared about this whole thing. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I have a – I just thought of another. Oh, this one here was quite, speaking of Kathy Carrington, and Tim Bruener could answer this. He had, when the pressure is on and he has to go before Council, you can always tell because he’s very short, angry and you can tell he’s much more difficult to deal with in the office. And, he had said something to Kathy and I guess copied all of us in it, and wanted Kathy to print this information. Well, we had something going on that morning, payroll and something else was going on, and so – VLS: It’s with a “K.” Thank you. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: She – he wanted her to print something. Just a simple request, please print these documents. Well, she was swamped and what she was doing she was in the middle of, so Tim printed the documents. No big deal, except that he screamed at her, indicating whatever I send you is more important than anything you’re working on. This is after he’s found out that Tim had printed the paperwork which he did to help her out because she was busy, rather than her because everything was time sensitive. Payroll needed to be in. That’s what it was. I just remember hearing, I mean, because I was walking in. I replaced Tim and so this in the morning. He’s getting ready to go out, so I’m coming in at the tail end of this thing. And he’s beside himself. Just – VLS: The Chief is screaming at Kathy? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: The Chief is screaming at Kathy, “Whatever I send you is the most important thing you have to do. Don’t worry about anything else. I am the most important thing.” And, you know, I may have had something else in here that just goes to anger. You know, this is like I say this is all, you know – - 88 - VLS: How long has Kathy been with the fire department? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I want to say 20 years. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: She’s been with the City 20 years. I don’t – I can’t – VLS: Okay, I said the wrong thing. With the – oh, okay. She’s been with the City 20 years, but you don’t know how long with the fire department? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I’ll go ahead and give you another one here. VLS: Okay, we’re up to #? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: 32. VLS: This is #32? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. And I’m including this because this is part of the anger comment that I just made. There was back and forth going on with the TeleStaff Kronos software we use and he copied us in this e-mail and this woman writes, “Hello Steve. Have you had a chance to review the attached renewal? Do you have any questions or need me to direct to another contact, please advise. This renewal is scheduled to invoice May 19, 2014. Please provide a signed quote or acceptance email.” And this is, you know, this is the second time that she had written. The first time she had written, you know, it was similar with no response. He writes back on May 16, 2014, “Carolyn, please send me the name, address, telephone and e-mail address for the CEO of Kronos. It certainly amazes me that when you want something (4th attempt) it is exceptionally urgent but when the customer needs something like support and/or technical assistance it is exceptionally unimportant to anyone at Kronos! Thank you so much for understanding, time and assistance.” I just, I printed this because it just to me is an example of a major anger issue that tends to pop up when he – and I’ve got, and in the text there’s another one, you know, where he’s doing the same thing, where’s he talking about, you know, ballistic. VLS: Okay, how did you – were you copied on this? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I’m copied on this. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Because I was the guy that implemented it. VLS: Because you implemented the Kronos? - 89 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: The Kronos stuff, yes. I was the lead guy installing that. And, I’ve got another one here that I can qualify. You know, Kathy is very intimidated. I’m intimidating, but Kathy – we had a staff meeting, which we don’t have very often. We haven’t had one for over a year, which is just unheard of, you know, to not have efficient staff [illegible]. We’re in the office and he asked, you know, why did you do it that way. She said well that’s the way we’ve always done it. This could have been a teaching moment. New Sheriff in town. Hey listen. Just because we’ve always done it that way doesn’t mean we’re going to do it that way in the future, so let’s, let’s look for opportunities to improve [illegible]. He yelled at her, said never say that again. And she – and I wrote here, she was shaken by it. VLS: Do you have a date on that staff meeting? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No, this goes back to probably 2010. This is really early on. VLS: Alright. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Some of this is just comments, you know, on being an administrator. You know, what kind of administrator. This is an e-mail, this goes back to, you know, we haven’t updated our rules and regulations probably since early 2000s. He writes on February 15, 2012 to a John Dunnuck. You know I never met this, but I was copied. “Good afternoon John. Thanks for your time this morning. I’ve attached the proposal I received on February 4, 2012 pertaining to a complete overhaul and production of our rules and regulations, standard operating procedures and forms manual. If you have any questions, don’t hesitate to call and/or e-mail me. Thanks again for your time and assistance.” This is typically something that could be handled in-house. We still haven’t updated our rules and regulations and this is not part of his stuff here. It’s just – maybe it’s [illegible]. I guess it will get back billed to me for therapy on this. VLS: Okay, so this – the person to whom this was sent is a third party? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: A third party. That’s, that’s the – there was another one if you want to attach a name to this as well, there’s a Chief Hanes. He had me sending all kinds of documents and forms, as well as Chief Vogel to a Chief Hanes, who was also going to do the same thing. He was going to farm out this stuff. Now there’s nothing wrong with farming this stuff out, but he was just going to have them do it and I guess eventually get around to asking us about how we actually operate. But either way, nothings been done, so. It’s just a – VLS: Okay, and that is #33, I guess? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. VLS: Alright. - 90 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Now I, I think the last document that I have here that’s of any – well here’s one that I forgot to give you. This is – this document is November 9, 2011. VLS: Let’s put a sticker #34 on it. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Alright. This is – this was written to, the original e-mail is written to Steve McInerny or from Steve McInerny to Bill Moss and Roger Reinke and he writes, “Good evening Bill. We continue to rack up numbers as it pertains to fires. This morning we had a plane catch fire at the airport involving a four passenger Piper. The fire involved the starter, wiring and fuel pump. This is at least the third fire since Friday. We had a good (and then in parenthesis) (bad) care fire on Golden Gate and US 41 on Friday, someone was tampering with FPL meter cans at River Park yesterday morning and resulted in the electrical service catching fire and shutting down power to the entire building. Last week with the incident at Hazelden was one of three fires in one day. We have never seen this activity going all the way back to 2006.” VLS: What’s the date of #34? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: That was - the original started on November 8. VLS: Of what year? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: 2011. VLS: Thank you. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Doug Finlay responds to that, to the City Manager and writes, “Naples is burning, I guess. Why?” Moss decides to answer it. The Chief copied us all on this. “Councilman Finlay, who knows? Electrical fire was caused by someone attempting to jump the FPL meter to get service. Very dangerous. Anything using fuel may catch fire, which explains the airplane and vehicle fire.” Well, the airplane fire was overheated wiring. “The Hazelden is a relatively new building. Carelessness, or just bad luck.” He writes, “Anyway, there is no defined trend that suggests a common cause (such as arson, major power surges, storms, etc. Statistically, we may have had years will limited fires and may now be returning to more fires, or perhaps the normal occurrences that should be expected.” This is once again, goes back to coding. And that all of a sudden we have all these fires and so the City Manager can only respond with what he’s been given. And so, I find it highly unlikely that he’s involved with knowing any changes in codes. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: But, this is, this is to me a reflection upon that same issue as where – VLS: Of the information coming from the Chief? - 91 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: We’re saying, here we go. There’s more fires and maybe we had less fires for all those years and that this is now normal. And so your prospective on what’s normal changes when you’re changing the code and you don’t tell people you’re changing the way things are coded. VLS: Do you know whether anyone ever brought to the City Manager’s office, brought to their attention, the fact that there had been a change in how things were coded? You don’t know? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No, I don’t. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I know it’s one of those things that, that, like I said, I can remember sitting in the office and rooting for someone to get to the bottom of this and just make it all out in the open. The catch phrase of transparency that’s been out there for a little while now, doesn’t seem to apply, and so. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Let me just review real quick and see if there’s anything else here that, and I’ll, I’ll, I’ll just hand you the notes that has some of the summaries. I’ve got the coding issue here. And I wrote here his direction on the coding issue, I wrote, his direction was very explicit. This [illegible] that simple [illegible]. VLS: Wait a minute. Stop. Can you repeat that and go more slowly? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: This is about the changing of the codes. It, the incident reports were previously coded as hazardous conditions (i.e., electrical problem, burned a/c belts, that’s just friction-not really a fire, and motors) be coded as building fire. This order meant that simple arching of outlets or switch plates due to a small electrical short are including as building fires. His direction was very explicit. His explanation to Council on the increased number of fires that Councilmembers [illegible]. There must be a problem with the electric [illegible] in the City. Ask the BCs. They’ve never seen anything like it. And I wrote the word recorded after that because that’s on the City’s system somewhere. Increased property loss. Exaggerated property and content loss values for fires to create a statistical advantage for a more dramatic effect for Council. That’s my opinion. Increased loss is evident both in the report writing phase and post report completed phase. Numerous edits to the loss amounts have been made without regard to directing updates [illegible]. Some increased totals were placed in reports without additional notes or explanations. Others were noted. Most recent was incident total estimates that were required by McInerny as he [illegible] BC DiMaria. VLS: Is that the one document that we looked at earlier that has a number of checkmarks on it? - 92 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes, yes. Last night I was updating this whole thing so it’s got a combination of new and old. When I first wrote it, I wrote it like as if it was going to be, I wanted to write it as if it was going to be given to someone who didn’t know anything. That was my dad, he said, you’ve got to be able to hand this to a lay person so that they can read it and understand. And, last night I realized that’s not going to happen so I started putting in some notes that were just, just me. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I wrote, again, this is just reiteration, “At the Mangrove Café explosion, the State Fire Marshall was shocked in conversation and the value McInerny was pushing. BC Nichols witnessed the conversation. Personnel are always very aware and joke on scene at the loss values and the types of calls considered fires by McInerny.” I’m wiring here in my notes, “McInerny has jeopardized the service provided to the community by encouraging a less aggressive approach. Has made such statements as let it burn down, don’t be too aggressive, let it burn and go defensive and let it burn and the outcome is the same. This goes directly against the department’s [illegible]. [Illegible] ourselves in being an aggressive [illegible] department. And that’s why so many of the fires that started going good were shut down. I’ve been amazed at some of the fires. I’m really proud of what we’ve done, so. He’s made these statements in staff meetings and at calls. I told you about the recent boat fire almost caught him on the radio. McInerny directed BCs not to indicate through radio communication when fires are extinguished. As rationale as Councilman Finlay pointing out that the amount of time passing until the incident commander announces the fire’s been out. And I gave you a copy of the e-mail that he directed [illegible] us. VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I talked about the abandoned promotional process and I’ve talked, and in this I’ve talked about Bill Moyer hiring, the Robert Rogers hiring, even Tim Bruener’s hiring, and I wrote, you know, where it was found on that PSSi form. When he hired Tina Bowling, she is a Fire Public Education Specialist. She was working – VLS: I’m sorry, what’s her title? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: She is the Fire Public Education Specialist. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: She was employed by the police department here as a computer forensics expert. That’s what the Chief told. She had no fire or inspection background. And the reason I wrote this down, because there’s been a few [illegible] times between the Chief of Police and the Chief of Fire with some snippy e-mails back and forth. But, he was in this office, he was in the office talking to the Fire Marshall and he was, he was, I wrote here, “Her hiring was touted by McInerny as a way to hurt NPD Chief Weschler by taking an asset away.” - 93 - VLS: Okay, let me see if I understand that. So, first of all, when was Tina Bowling hired? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Within this last year. VLS: Okay. And she previously worked for the police department? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: NPD. VLS: Which is Chief Wechsler? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Correct. VLS: And what, what statement was made? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Well, he was touting the fact that he had hired her. That she has this mast computer background and that this was a coo(?) for him. I’m trying to remember his exact words, but, that, you know, Weschler wasn’t going to be happy. And he was gloating. VLS: Okay, this was in – he was touting it in front of you? This is something you observed? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Me, and, yes. Yes. VLS: In the? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: In the office. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I’ve got a bunch of reiterations here on the ISO manipulation. I’ve got some data here, some background I think on the airport services that, you know, if you’ve heard anything with our new schedule tomorrow, I have two people working a part of a day, because we’ve got the strangest schedule ever with the airport. But, there was a, I want to say in July, I wrote in July of 2010, there was a confrontation back and forth with Ted Soliday at the airport regarding having Crash Fire 3, CF3, in the Fourth of July parade. It seemed silly, but the airport wanted their truck in the parade and the Chief wanted to make sure that this guy knew that it wasn’t going to go in the parade, that he was the Chief of this department and he’ll decide where the assets go. And, I remember suggesting that, well, if you have this feeling, we can put another truck out there and you can indicate to him you think it’s a bad idea. You can have him sign off on it. That way if something does happen, because to meet the FAA Index, we don’t require that truck; we require the smaller truck which wasn’t leaving. But it seemed like a power control and it seemed, it just continued to escalate from there and as reflected in some of the e-mails regarding just the types of incidents that are dramatized out there. I reiterate some stuff about the station and the dramatization of calls. - 94 - VLS: Station 1? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Station 3. VLS: Station 3? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Station 3. Remember I told you that he was telling the Councilwoman that the places needs to be torn down. VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: So. VLS: That was the new candidate? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. And then we have – we’ve talked about some of the media stuff. I talked about the search and I told you about the person on the ladder at the Fifth Avenue fire. But there’s another one in here that goes back to a comment he made. It just goes in with everything else. And this was earlier this year. We had a call where we had a young person that was overdosed on drugs and my personnel pushed Narcan. She was, she had no heartbeat. She actually died. And as a part of this protocol, they pushed the Narcan. They got her back. She was talking by the time they got to the hospital. I described to him what took place because he wants these kinds of calls. And I don’t think it’s bad to say your personnel were out here working doing the job. But, I told him that I was advised by Lt. Baltondonno, because I called him and asked the details, whose drugs were they. Were they our Nar - was it our Narcan on our box or was it EMS’s box? He said no, it was EMS box, but he did push the drug. And I made sure the Chief knew that because we had some texting I think or at least a phone conversation. He said don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story. VLS: That’s in the – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: That’s the conversation I had with him on the Narcan call. VLS: Okay. In other – okay, go ahead. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It just goes to what I have been saying which is whether it’s an exaggeration or an omitting of information to spin it so it looks better. To tell me don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story, to me from him, is now more than just an expression that you’ve heard before. VLS: So, let me make sure that I understand this situation with the call on the overdose. The Chief was asking whose drug, meaning the Narcan, was used. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Right. VLS: And, in fact, it was – - 95 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: EMS’s Narcan. VLS: EMS’s Narcan and what are you saying? That the Chief – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I told the Chief, Chief just to be clear. Lt. Balto pushed the Narcan for this patient. VLS: Meaning administered? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Administered the Narcan, but it was not our Narcan. He pulled it out of the EMS’s box. But, it’s a team approach. And so giving one person credit versus the team credit, to me is, is everybody’s there talking. So, who’s the first person that said use the Narcan? Who’s the second person, you know? Was there a quorum? VLS: Was that ever – do you know whether it was ever a subject of a memo or publication? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I was looking. VLS: To, within the department or to the City Manager’s office or to the media? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t remember. I was trying last night, and gave up at one in the morning because I started printing some of the stuff last night that I decided late in the game to, you know, I just – my notes were here, I had some stuff that I wanted. I found some more stuff and printed it. And so last night I was looking specifically for some of those exaggerations because I know they’re there. I remember the one specifically on the one where he’s talking about the amount of heat and smoke being encountered. It was just an exaggeration. We never explained that to him, you know. So, I’m going to look for that. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Let me make a note. And those typically are, most the time there are, there are incident reports that he’s, I guess he calls them noteworthy, that he sends to the City Manager. And when he sends them to the City Manager, they go to the Council. And then the Council responds back and we end up with some of these lengthy – VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: A couple of other things that I just wanted to touch on because they go to ethics. That was a – when I got hired, the City Manager’s thing was ethics above all else [illegible]. And there is some questionable ethical things that have gone on here. That’s maybe the best way to put it, summarizes a lot of what I am saying. We have brought in personnel from his department, from his old department. In a couple of cases, one of them was on, he wanted me to give training to our Human Resources Department over here with Denise and Laurie and I’m trying to remember - 96 - who all else came, but he didn’t want me to do it until I had this other guy from, oh, what is his name. This other guy from Ft. Lauderdale come over because he remembered this guy as being the guy that did the TeleStaff for his department. So, I had to coordinate schedules and it took a while to coordinate schedules to have this class on. And then he paid the guy. I forget how much he paid him, but it was, you know, a good size chunk of money to come over here to train. VLS: Train on TeleStaff? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Train on TeleStaff. VLS: And TeleStaff again is what? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It’s our personnel recordkeeping, hours of work and credentials and stuff like that. So he actually said in the meeting that we had with – because when we came down and I described everything we’re doing, he advised that we are doing way more than Ft. Lauderdale were doing and even in the meeting that we had with HR, suggested that they should hire me to come over and work with them on [illegible] TeleStaff. But, I saw this is a just throwing a bone to somebody from Ft. Lauderdale because he did it again with extrication training bringing over another one of his buddies. And this guy was definitely a buddy. He brought him over to extrication training. And we had just completed a week’s worth of extrication training or more and some of it was fairly advanced. And he brought this guy over and paid him and this guy’s money and we did extrication training again. And – VLS: Where was the other – who did the other extrication training? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Chief Moyer was in charge of our training department and he had set up a lot of the training. And so I felt like our personnel were getting very good training, but then we went out and did it again. You know, there’s nothing wrong with training [illegible] but to give these guys $500 a day to come over and do something that, not only did we already do and duplicate within a two-week time period, but we weren’t learning any new techniques or anything like that. I just felt like this was another opportunity to throw bones over. VLS: Now where would that payment be reflected in records? If, in fact, the Chief paid the Ft. Lauderdale personnel to do the TeleStaff training and also someone else to do the extrication training, where would the paper trail for that be, if you know? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I don’t know if we were on Tyler Munis, which is the City’s system now, or if it was on the old. I guess it would be on the old SunGard system we have. And I don’t know if those records transferred, but I’m sure that BC DiMaria would have been involved with making sure that was all taken care of because he’s been the right [illegible]. VLS: Because he’s the budget? - 97 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah, yeah. But it goes. And I have one more e-mail because this talks about the same stuff. It’s the same sort of thing about how monies are spent. He’s – I wrote to the Chief and copied everyone on June 25 at 2013. This is outlining the replacement cost for a laptop that goes in the truck. The laptop was damaged when water poured through the cab of the truck because of leaks in the roof of his brand new truck. I approached him. Well, you can see, this particular thread starts 2009, December 22 and I wrote here, “Sir, below is the original e-mail.” A little bit passive aggressive because I wrote him again in June, so 6, 7 months later we still haven’t, we’ve never been reimbursed. I think the, the actually company we dealt with went out of business. I couldn’t even get service from a mount company that mounted the computer because evidently the vendor didn’t pay that company. Rosenbauer is the truck that we have that he’s pushed – we’re not allowed to use the words Rosen broken because somebody started using Rosen broken because some of the finished work and the materials were pathetic. I’m very disappointed in the prod and yet when you went to their coast, you heard the same thing because he purchased Rosenbauers over there. And, it wasn’t the company that was recommended. And they came in, you know. There was things done that was low bid and after the fact they – things were changed to a – you know, so they bought the Rosenbauer. But his new training chief came in, I told him one of my trucks was down and that we were swapping it out and I’d get my personnel over there then. He said was it the Rosen broken? [Illegible] you known, because we’re not allowed to say that. VLS: This is Pennington that said that? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. Cause it’s a joke over there because the Rosenbauer showed up and they would be off the road more than they were on the road and yet he pushed them. And I say this – you know, I know there’s no retaliation, but he had a buddy up there, Ray Bell, that I saw another e-mail where he’s talking about, well, you know, you have Ray Bell working there, but, you know, I am sure that Ray Bell is his buddy and Ray Bell worked for the company, not Rosenbauer, but for the company that distributed that, that truck. And, it was a nightmare because we had lots of problems with it and the support was from the other coast and it became a point of contention. VLS: And the document you’ve been referring to most recently, we marked as #35, that being your e-mail of June 25, 2013 to the Chief. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. All these are [illegible]. So, that kind of touches, and I wrote on there the Ray Bell, I don’t believe we’ve been appropriate with that sort of stuff. VLS: In the purchasing decisions? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. VLS: Is that what you’re referring to? - 98 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah, I think that the, you know, whether it’s the, that one e-mail that I gave you that showed the sole source or even the purchasing of the Rosenbauers. I’m not entirely sold that, that, that whole process is above reproach. VLS: Who else in the department becomes involved with the purchasing decisions? Is that assigned to a particular Battalion Chief? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I think that Chief DiMaria handles the, a lot of the purchasing end of it, the financial stuff, setting up things. The Chief has to final approve everything and I don’t know how much the shop is aware of. I know that they were displeased with some of the stuff. VLS: The shop, in that being what? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Randy Bills. VLS: Randy Bills. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: In my conversations with Randy, his opinions of it, you know, don’t seem to carry a whole lot of water with the Chief. There’s a couple more things on here. And this, a lot of this I know, is just character stuff, but there’s stuff that’s, it is important to me. On ImageTrend, one of the software implementations that I did, he asked me for who needs to go to the ImageTrend conference and I stated that, you know, it was going to be three people. The three people that would go would be me, Steve Kofsky and Mike Murphy because we were the ones that were going to be doing the heavy lifting here. So we should go to this conference as we get ready to deploy this. So then he responded, well, it’s going to be me, Pete DiMaria and the Chief. And I pushed back and said we really need to have these guys going [illegible]. Here’s the guys that are going. And then as this came together, there was no really backing out of this. There was no question that I had to go, but his reason for going seemed to be one dimensional and it was so that we could leave that conference while we’re up north already and go to Detroit, rent a car, pick up a friend of his and drive around until 3:00 in the morning with a scanner chasing fire calls. They call it “buffing.” They call them “fire buffs.” VLS: Buffing? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Buffing. VLS: B U F F I N G? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I believe that’s the term. I’m not much into that stuff. I get enough of that here, and while I find some of the work that they do tremendous, given the assets they have to work with and I met a lot of good people there. It was only because I forced my way. When he’s taking pictures from a distance, I walked up to the Driver Engineer, got us an invite back to the station where I got to hear about life as a Detroit fireman. That was, that was good. But, the first night there, at one point we race into a very poor community, a car had run off the road through a vacant lot into a - 99 - house. And we get out, four old white guys, out of a black SUV, brand new Cadillac, whatever it was that we rented, Suburban, and just, he’s just walking right up into this area that was just charged with emotion. It was, I mean, there was 100 people out there and why we were – I – you know, he spun this as a command and control class for the City Manager’s consumption. But this is something that, you know, he skipped. When he first got hired, he missed a retirement party for six guys and, so he could go do this. This isn’t a command and control thing. This is passion, a hobby. VLS: So who was on this? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Me and Pete. And, I – we were blowing red lights, we were speeding, we were – I was, I was in fear. And I’m not making this up. I’m, you know, I’m not a daredevil. And I don’t want to pretend to be something I’m not. We would skip meals. His buddy was getting low blood sugar. It didn’t matter. He was wanted to catch the next run. And I, I felt completely and utterly out of place. I wanted nothing to do with being there. And, you know, it starts to become, you know, at what point is enough, enough. And, you know, Pete and I were texting each other in the back because we didn’t feel we could speak freely. And, you know, we caught a slow time and that was frustrating for him. VLS: When was the trip to Detroit for the ImageTrend training? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: It would have been winter of, I think winter of 2014. I’ll have to, I’d have to look up the calendar. VLS: Alright. And you were, that’s the ImageTrend training was in Detroit? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: The ImageTrend training was in Minneapolis. So then we left Minneapolis and went to Detroit. VLS: And there was no other reason? Was there any reason to go to Detroit? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. I think this was a City paid hobby trip for him that he tried to say was command and control. VLS: Okay. Did you spend the night in Detroit? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes, we spent, I think, two nights in Detroit. VLS: Okay. And that was not associated with ImageTrend? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. happen. We had to get special permission to make it VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: And, you know, in some of those areas, I did not feel safe. We went down the wrong way on one way roads, we through intersections - 100 - without stopping, we blew red lights. I mean, like as if we were responding. You know, if I’m in a fire truck and I pull up to a red light and my lights are on, I’ll hesitate to see and go. That’s the way we respond through red lights. VLS: And you were in what vehicle? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: We were in the Hertz rental car, whatever, It was a rental SUV, a black SUV. VLS: And it was being driven by whom? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Chief McInerny. VLS: And it was the three? person was whom? It was DiMaria, you, the Chief driving and the fourth BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Retired guy that was into this sort of stuff from Phoenix. VLS: Had he been at the training? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. VLS: But it was somebody you think that the Chief knew? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. And it was, because then we met, we were, you know, there’s no place to go the bathroom. We’re out behind a closed McDonalds in the parking lot and he’s telling us to keep our eyes open in case somebody approaches. You know, like I said, it’s not a neighborhood you’d want to be in in the middle of the night just sitting out in a car necessarily and he’s waiting for a guy, he kept referring to as retard. And this guy was a, you know, a guy, I don’t know, 30s, 40s years old that was living with his folks and his hobby and his passion was taking pictures of fires in Detroit and selling those photos. And, the Chief told me he just recently got hired by Detroit to do photos. You know, a good photographer. And then it was just, you know, where’s it popping? Where’s it happening? Where are we going next? You know, what’s the [illegible]. VLS: He was communicating with this person that had the name retard? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. VLS: How was he communicating with him, by phone? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: They were doing it by phone and then they, then we met in the parking lot, and, you know. VLS: You met this man that goes by the name retard or did the Chief call him? - 101 - BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: That’s what the Chief referred to him as. I don’t think he ever called him that to his [illegible]. VLS: And you met him in the McDonalds’ parking lot in Detroit? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah. Let me just pull the cars up. I didn’t physically get out and talk to the guy, but they pulled the cars up so their windows could be down. So I, that was something I wanted to, to push, because I thought it was an inappropriate use of department funds. It was inappropriate people to go to ImageTrend in the first place and I think it was strictly so he could go up there to this event or maybe he thought he was going to make Pete and I converts because he was constantly sending us Detroit stuff. You know, what’s burning now. And I, you know, it’s, without judging that as a hobby, I don’t want my life put in jeopardy for a hobby. You know, I’m not jumping out of airplanes. So I don’t want to race around and, you know, it’s dangerous enough here with lights and sirens. So. VLS: To your knowledge, was this ever revealed to the City Manager’s Office? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. I think if all the stuff had been revealed to the City Manager’s Office, maybe we wouldn’t be here, but, and there was, you know, people that were obviously, you know, the Union is slower to judge. My mind was made up a long time ago. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: There was a couple of other things, I don’t have anything other than Ang Dodtle(sp?). He showed myself and DiMaria pictures of a gentleman that was supposed to come give a presentation here on, it was called Data Driven Solutions. And, the pictures were reportedly of this gentlemen that was to give this report who either enjoys dressing as a woman or as a cross-dresser and has a name. So he was getting lots of giggles out of that and making, you know, his kind of assessments of this gentlemen. And, he worked really hard to try to keep this from coming to town. And I don’t have the name of – there was some sort of committee put together and I can’t remember, but I want to say that there was Council people, the Fire Chief, I think County and City, on this committee. And he said, and he, and the Chief thought he was going to the Chair of this committee and then it was revealed he wasn’t going to Chair the committee, so when he couldn’t steer the committee, he did whatever he could to influence other members on the committee to vote against what the, what the, the, some of the, the, the prominent like the Marvin Easton was pushing for. He may have been on the committee as well. And he said I’m going to blow the committee up. That was, quote me on that. I’m going to blow this committee up and he was going to do everything he could to make sure that committee would not be successful, that it would be disbanded. VLS: Did they, in fact, do a presentation? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No. He blew the committee up. - 102 - VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: He got enough discourse to where they couldn’t come upon any kind of agreement and I think that was through manipulating of people on his side. Cause this all about, you know, sides. Going to war. Everything’s a battle to him. So, I don’t even have that one on here. That was one that I meant to write down and didn’t, the blow up. VLS: He made the comment, “I’m going to blow up this committee” and you heard him say that? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: He was talking directly to me. VLS: Okay. Anybody else there? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I think that one, he was just in his office. I recall him sitting down. I think, you know, not to disappoint. Normally, when I talk this long, somebody is telling me to be quiet and it’s usually my kids. I think I’ve given you all that I have other than the fact that I’m going to look for those incidents where I believe there are further examples of exaggeration. I will look for the, see if I can find requests for Finlay on what I was asked and what was produced to see if I can find anything on that that would help you. It’s going to be, I think, difficult so I have a list of, you know, all of these Excel forms I put together, so I’m going to try to see if I can tie them into the email. Here is this form here. VLS: Okay, and you are handing me back #31 which are your notes. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. Now, I guess that leaves with one other exception on the documents is to see what documents that I don’t have in my e-mail system and what I’ll do, the ones that I was sent from – VLS: Vogel? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yes. And, what I will do, is I’ll pull up like one of the documents labeled January 23, you don’t even have to write this down, because I’m telling you you’ve got a copy of it, so, I did have a copy of this one, at least part of it. So, what I’ll do is I’ll double-check his documents and see what he sent. And it goes, you know, some of the stuff that I read to you earlier, but if I’ve got the documents and you have them, I’ll let you know. And I can tell you, I’ll show you right here. I took, this is what was sent to me. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen documents. Now it looks like some of them are just like page 2, page 3 so it may be one thread. I haven’t pieced all of that together. I didn’t, like I said, I got this last night and I looked for some of those dates and couldn’t find anything. VLS: So this came to you on your? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: On my phone. - 103 - VLS: On your phone? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: On my phone. VLS: On your Battalion Chief phone? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: No, no, no. On my personal cell. VLS: Your personal phone. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: This is the phone call I had with DiMaria last night about 10:30, towards the end of the football game. VLS: Towards the end. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Which I don’t get see on TV anymore. [Illegible]. VLS: The other thing that we were talking about, what you were going to do. The emails that we marked #2, you’re going to go back and take notes [illegible] what – you’re going to copy those and get those to me? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Yeah, I can, I can, however it would be best. It’s a single-sided. What I had done is put Post-It notes. What I can do, is I’ve got Post-It notes, but what I can do is make it, rather than it just be a tab to find, I’ll make, I mean there’s a lot of blank pages here, but it’s a complete, you know, everything I printed. So I didn’t want it to look like I was taking it – VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: You know, I was just trying to identify the conversations with his cell phone and the Battalion Chief phone. That’s what I had printed off and this goes back, you know, quite a while. But, what I can is show you what was written and what I interpreted it to be and why. And so that way I’ll say it like this is boat Council, I’ll re-write that and say, you know, I’ll put a Post-It note closer to it. VLS: Okay. Or you could – BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Whatever works best? Or should I take the Post-It note off and just handwrite it there with a bold pen? VLS: I’ll tell you what. Why don’t you create a separate document. You can refer, we know that exhibit #2 is labeled pages 1 through 178. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Correct. VLS: Do you want to prepare a document where you say, see page 27 of 178? BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Okay. And then we’ll take all these off. - 104 - VLS: And then you can take those off. So I will wait to get those from you. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Okay. VLS: But right now, what I’m going to do is turn off the recorder and get copies exhibits #22 through #35 copied and if you’ll wait for those. Then if there’s anything additional you want to add the record, we can add it at that time. So, I’m turning the recorder off at about 3:06. VLS: And some copies have been made of documents and we are ending the interview of Battalion Chief Mike Nichols. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I will ask you a question. VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: I have the text messages here that I’m going to summarize and make copies. VLS: But I want copies of the underlying documents as well. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Would you like all the documents? VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: All 178? VLS: 128, 178, whatever. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Okay. And so how is the best way to get these to you? VLS: You can e-mail. And that is a secure site if you e-mail to me. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Okay. VLS: That will be received only by me and my staff for purposes of this inquiry investigation at this stage. BATTALION CHIEF NICHOLS: Right, right. VLS: Okay. Thank you. Okay, we’re signing off. - 105 - RECORDED INTERVIEW OF LT. DANIEL ZUNZUNEGUI ON 12/2/15 VLS: This day is December 2, 2015. My name is Vicki Sproat; I’m with the law firm of Henderson Franklin Starnes & Holt in Fort Myers and I have been retained by the City of Naples to conduct an inquiry or investigation into some allegations that were made in a letter dated October 21, 2015, sent by Local 2174 to the City of Naples concerning some allegations. I have been retained to look into allegations of misconduct on the part of Chief McInerny that are raised in this October 21, 2015 letter. I have with me today Lieutenant Zunzunegui, and before we get started with the interview I just want to go over a couple of things with you, Lieutenant. I want to make a couple of statements. City policy requires employees to be forthright and truthful and cooperative in providing information in connection with inquiry or investigation. Do you understand that? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I understand that. VLS: And City policy also provides that retaliation against any employee for making a complaint of misconduct or for assisting in an inquiry or investigation involving alleged misconduct is prohibited. Do you understand that? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I understand that. VLS: And do you understand that if you feel you have been retaliated against for cooperating in this inquiry, or by giving a statement that you have been asked to do, you should promptly report that to the Human Resource Department. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I understand that. VLS: Okay. So, with that in mind, let me just ask you a couple of questions about your background. State your full name. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: My name is Daniel Zunzunegui. I’m a lieutenant, firefighter and paramedic at the City of Naples Fire Rescue. I started my career in August of 2004; I believe it was August 9th. I’ve served in fire prevention, operations and as a supervisor at the company officer level. I’ve also had some special projects. At one point I managed medical supplies and currently I’m managing the City’s hydrants’ maintenance program in cooperation with utilities. VLS: Okay. I’m going to go back and ask you a few more questions. So, you started with the City of Naples Fire & Rescue Department in August of 2004. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes. VLS: Okay. When you started, what was your position? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: My position was technically a civilian position; I was what they called a Fire Prevention Specialist so my job entailed doing public education and fire inspections. At the time we managed our own website, so I was also involved in that in terms of website maintenance, for the fire department. I started the CERT Team which -1- is a community emergency response team. I was able to get the first one going for Naples Fire Rescue. I think the program faded away a couple years ago but I was in prevention for about a year-and-a-half and those are the things I did while I was there. VLS: When did you move from the position of Fire Prevention Specialist, which is what you said a civilian position, to being an operations __________? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: It was March 20 of 2006. VLS: Okay. And then what was your position? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Firefighter, EMT and I really quickly was pursuing my education so within a year I had a bachelor’s degree and then became a paramedic. VLS: Okay. Where did you get your bachelor’s degree? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: For the paramedic part, I think I finished the program in December of 2007 and a became a state paramedic in 2008. I got my bachelor’s degree, finished it in 2008, the spring of 2008. I’m sorry, the summer, I walked the spring, the summer I did finish the last of the requirements and I was at Edison State College which is now known as Florida Southwestern. VLS: Okay. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: And I also have, this spring I finished a distance program with University of Alabama, accredited distance education and consumer quality management was my specialization and it’s a Masters of Science in Human Environmental Science. VLS: Okay. When did you, what was your next progression and position from Firefighter/EMT? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I think it was December 14 of 2009 I believe; I was promoted to Fire Lieutenant Paramedic. VLS: Okay. And what battalion? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I’ve been on the same shift, A Battalion, for my whole career in operations. VLS: And your Battalion Chief to whom you report? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Currently it’s Battalion Chief Tim Bruener; Timothy Bruener. VLS: And you are currently Fire Lieutenant? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes, on Ladder Company One. VLS: Ladder One. Okay. Which puts you in Firehouse One? -2- LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes, ma’am. And I bounced around before I was promoted but since being promoted I’ve been at Fire Station One since 2009. VLS: Okay. Have you sought promotions at the Naples Fire Department, promotions beyond Fire Lieutenant Paramedic? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I’ve always have, anytime there was a position that I felt I was qualified for, I was looking forward, even in the past before I was a lieutenant I had applied for the Fire Marshall’s opening. VLS: Okay, when did you apply for the Fire Marshall’s opening? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I think it was probably in 2008 or 2008. It was when, actually it was awarded to Larry Boche, the previous Fire Marshall, but he has since retired. VLS: And I brought with me today some documents that I thought might assist us. When you applied for the Fire Marshall’s position, did you respond to a posting? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yeah, this was a different Fire Chief at the time, and I believe it was posted, to my best recollection. I can’t guarantee that but I think it was posted on the HR web. VLS: Did you complete an application or Job Interest Statement in connection with that? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I believe I did. I recall writing a detailed letter of my interest in the position and what my qualifications were and how I felt I could be of benefit to the department in that position. VLS: Okay. I’m going to hand you what I’ll just mark as Number One, which are some documents that I obtained from your personnel file, and I’m just going to ask you to just take a minute to look through this, but is this your submission in connection with the sought promotion to the Fire Marshall position? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yeah, its 2008. Yeah, this looks like it. VLS: Okay. Just for purposes of making sure that I understand all of your education and training, I thought it might be helpful if we went to the resume you submitted in connection with that application which is, I think, the third page on Exhibit One, and if you can tell me, was this accurate at the time you submitted it? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: My education? VLS: Well, your experience, education and professional associations. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes, this was accurate at the time. -3- VLS: Okay. But since that time you have apparently received further education and certifications? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes. VLS: Okay. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I’ve tried to continue every year… VLS: Okay. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: …to better myself. VLS: Alright. So, let’s begin with education. Since this was submitted in 2008, you completed your bachelor’s degree at Edison College now Florida Southwest, and since this was submitted you also, if I understand what you said, have obtained your master’s degree. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes. VLS: Okay. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Also, there is state certifications like Fire Officer One, Live Fire Training Instructor One, which is a requirement that the fire___________, per the Florida Statutes and state laws and also a Fire Service Instructor Three. VLS: Okay. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: And I’ve completed various technical rescue courses. VLS: Please tell me what those are. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: The Technical Rescue Team does confine space rescue, rope rescue, structural collapse, trench and vehicle and machinery. So, I was able to get on the team because I had about, in every discipline, at least the operations level and a then a field one at the technician levels. I think I joined the team in 2010. VLS: Who heads up the Technical Rescue Team? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: That would be Lieutenant Havekate. VLS: How do you spell that? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: H-a-v-e-k-a-t-e. VLS: Thank you. So, what is required to get Fire Officer # One certification? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I can’t remember the exact; I lot of these overlap. But there’s like building construction for the fire service, they’re college accredit courses, usually at the -4- associate and science level. There’s building construction, there’s fire tactics and strategy, I’m trying to think, there’s a series of courses that you have to take for each state certification, and …. VLS: Where do you go – where do you obtain those? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Some of them I get through St. Pete College, the distance?? Education; some of them I had already completed while pursuing an associates in arts at Miami Dade College before I was employed here. And, I think there was a couple that I took at the Florida State Fire College itself while traveling through Ocala. I wish I had brought my own cause it’s hard to remember off the top of your head. VLS: What I’ll do, and I’m going to get into another topic, which is, did you seek a promotion recently to the Battalion Chief Training position? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes, I did. VLS: Okay. And, in connection with that, did you submit something similar to what I’ve shown you as Number One? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: It’s similar in the sense that I was able to provide kind of like an interest letter that’s very similar to the self-evaluation narrative, of what my interest was, what I felt I could provide the department. VLS: And do you still have a copy of what you presented? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I may have it on file, either on my desk top at work, or I could probably pull it up from sent e-mail. VLS: Okay. I would like a copy of that. If you have the e-mail that accompanied it, if you can send that to me as well at the e-mail address that’s indicated on the business card, because I did not find that in your personnel file. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Okay. Yes, I’ll be sure to do that as soon as this is over. VLS: Okay. That letter, or the information that you submitted in connection with the possible promotion, that was accurate at the time that it was submitted in terms of a representation of your interest and your background and experience? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes, there is nothing in there that would be considered false information or embellishment. It was about my current educational level and some of my experiences and how I felt about that position, how I could be a benefit to the Fire Rescue Department in that position. VLS: Okay. Does the City of Naples pay for any of your education or certifications? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: They do; it’s changed a little bit throughout the years. But I think at this point it’s up to $2,500 and I think it’s every fiscal year or annually; that language did -5- change, so pursuing the master’s degree, I paid for most of that. I think I only received a one-time payment of $2,500 back. There was a period of time when we didn’t have the reimbursement due to negotiations and concessions. Like when I went to paramedic school I was able to get some but there was some that had to come out of my pocket due to the timing that was on annual and prior to that it was fiscal or something, so…there are times that if you are pursuing a lot of schooling you have to come out of pocket quite a bit. VLS: Okay. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: It’s an investment in yourself and it will help people. VLS: Yes. You did not receive the promotion due to the Battalion Chief Fire Marshall position in 2008. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: No, I did not. VLS: Who was selected for that position? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: That was Larry Boche. VLS: Okay. I guess you already told me that. And, who currently holds that position? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: At this time, his name is Robert Rogers; he goes by Bob Rogers. VLS: Okay. Was Larry Boche an internal candidate? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: He was. I worked with him as a civilian at the fire prevention during the time of fire prevention. He was internal but he was also, I believe the first, to my knowledge, to the history of our department, the first Fire Marshall that was a civilian not also capable of doing some of the operational skills that are needed. VLS: Okay. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: But to be fair, he had retired from a long tenure of service from the FDNY so, a very knowledgeable person and definitely has the talent and the skills and the knowledge, just not the State of Florida certification for it to be considered operations, so, that’s why he was classified as a civilian. VLS: Thank you. When did you seek a promotion to the Battalion Chief Training position? I know it would help if you had your paperwork with you, and we’ll rely on that date. Was it this year? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: It was this year; I want to say it was summer, maybe sometime at the end of June or July, I can’t really remember how long ago it was. VLS: That training chief position was a vacant position? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes. -6- VLS: Who had last held that position? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: It was Battalion Chief Bill Moyer. VLS: Okay. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: He left earlier than was anticipated by the current director. So, when he left there was a vacancy. He left in June. VLS: He left in June, 2015. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Interest Letters were asked for and I decided that I was interested and I would put forth my best letter. VLS: Okay. And how were Interest Letters solicited? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: There was an e-mail sent out by the Fire Chief about the vacancy and about Battalion Chief Moyer retiring unexpectedly. VLS: I’m going to show you what I’m going to mark as Exhibit Two. Is that the e-mail that was sent out about the vacant position? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: It appears so, yes. VLS: Okay. And what you’re going to send to me, if you can locate it, will be your response to this informational bulletin expressing your interest in the Fire Rescue Training Officer position. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes, I’ll send that to you. And, if you would be so kind, do you have my e-mail address? VLS: I do not. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: It’s dzunzunegui@naplesgov.com. VLS: Okay. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: This is a reminder cause I do have a lot going on today and I would hate to forget. VLS: Okay. I can do a follow-up to you. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: That too, if possible. VLS: Okay. Were you interviewed for the position? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: No. VLS: Did you discuss your interest in the position with Chief McInerny? -7- LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Just through the letter that I sent. VLS: Alright. Do you know what other internal candidates there were for the position? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I think Lieutenant Pecar had applied. Gerald Pecar. Lieutenant Corey Adamski, I believe, also applied. And Driver Engineer Steve Kofsky. VLS: Okay. Did you receive any communication from the Chief directly to you indicating that you had not been selected for the position? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: To my best recollection I didn’t receive anything directed towards me. I think news came out about the external candidate and then a formal e-mail came out from the Fire Chief about his qualifications and experience and how it was a difficult decision to make. VLS: Okay. Have you ever talked directly to the Chief about his selection of the candidate for the Fire Training Chief position? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: No, I never spoke to him face-to-fact directly about that position. VLS: Okay. And who was selected for that position? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: His name is Philip Pennington. VLS: Okay. And has Philip Pennington started in that position? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes. VLS: And when did he start? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I want to say it’s probably been a month or so. VLS: Okay. Very good. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I’ve had a little bit of face time with him. Hard to remember exactly when his start date was. VLS: Okay. Have you ever been the subject of discipline while an employee of the Naples Fire Department? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes. VLS: And when was that? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: There was an occasion I received an oral reprimand. Which oral reprimands aren’t grievable. Which is pretty difficult because to accept because pretty much someone, a supervisor, could write something about you that you feel really doesn’t represent you as an employee, and you can’t do anything about it. However, I think it only stays in your Fire Department file and not in the Human Resources file. -8- That’s what I understand; that may not be correct but I received one for supposedly hanging up on my Battalion Chief; I think that was in 2011, 2012. VLS: Who was the Battalion Chief? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: His name was Thomas L. Vogel. And it was actually during a conversation where at the time I was teaching for the department for a handful of people, giving them the courses to become certified pump operators, with the State of Florida, so that they could take the test with our department and start acting as drivers for our department so we would have enough people available to fill in that role when they assigned engineer….a lieutenant, that werent’ really getting along too well. When I went to his station to drop off some assignments I forgot to give the guys and I was really trying to follow everything by the book in case the state audited me on how I delivered the course so I forgot to give it to them but I had a training opportunity with him that morning. When I went to the station, that lieutenant approached me in a manner that was pretty hostile and he wouldn’t let me pass him. He kind of made everybody wait inside, he wouldn’t let me pass him. He wouldn’t move out of my way so both times he was kind of agitated, yelling at me, cursing and ……so, I went inside and called the Battalion Chief and then I had to write a memo about what had occurred and that morning he called me and …it’s old news; I mean it’s nothing I have any resentment about. I think when an employee tells you that something like that happens to them, I don’t ever come to work thinking that someone is going to treat me with hostility. I think it’s highly unprofessional, especially for someone not to let me pass and be yelling at you. His conversation with me regarding that wasn’t productive. He mentioned that I ruined his holiday because it was my fault that this happened. So, I don’t remember hanging up on him, but I definitely remember that the conversation that he had with me wasn’t very professional and the only remark that he made that you could consider kind was that he was thankful that I didn’t use foul language and that I didn’t fight this lieutenant. So, anyway, what happened as an end result of that conversation was that I returned from the holiday to an oral reprimand about hanging up on him and something that happened prior where I was in kind of a tough situation and I was mandated for overtime and at that time we had a share program with the county where we would ride on the county ambulance and they always had a firefighter paramedic on Engine Two and so that morning I came back from the late call, that shift, and they said you need to call Chief Bolo? Because you’re getting mandated today and because someone called in sick on the ambulance and you’re stuck for 24, so my predicament there was my wife was a labor nurse. What we would do is take our son to the NCH Daycare and depending on how long he was going to be there, if she worked the 12-hour shift while I was on duty, he could be there up until that timeframe. And so she would provide him with enough food for the daycare to give him throughout that timeframe. She had expected me to pick him up that morning. We wouldn’t just leave him there. We could spend time with him, so he had breakfast, he didn’t have any food. So when I called my Battalion chief about that situation, I explained to him, “sir, I really can’t do this because my son’s in daycare and he doesn’t have enough food to last him through the day,” and he exploded on me over the phone. Something prior to that was, I guess I was never placed on the overtime roster and another time Chief caught it and they put me in, so had mentioned something about that this is the first time they’re -9- calling me for overtime and it’s my fault, like it’s my fault that I wasn’t on the roster and now you’re gonna tell me that you can’t do it. Instead of being my fault he could understand my son needs food, obviously the kind can’t go without food the rest of the day. I said, “no sir, I’m telling you that my son is in daycare and he doesn’t have enough food to last him through the day.” He then told me that I sounded like a smart ass and I stayed quiet and he said, “how much time do you need to get food to your son?” I said, “at least a couple hours.” So, someone was able to hold over for me so I could run to Publix, procure some food, take it to the daycare and then I did come back and worked the rest of the shift. Well, in that oral reprimand he had put that what had happened during that issue in his own way and I didn’t work that day. So, that was the past experience he had in which I provided that at the time we used the software that showed …..it’s called Vision Fire, and I provided the internal entry that showed when I left and when I returned to work the remainder of that shift. So, that was part of that oral reprimand …the hanging up on and the skewed narrative of what really transpired with me trying to get food to my son. VLS: Okay. Is that the only…… LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: No. Then I received one, I don’t remember what year – you might have it there; I think it was 2013 because someone had said, a lieutenant had said during an incident that, who was acting as a Battalion Chief on my shift, that during an emergency at Naples Community Hospital that I had threatened to shut down the hospital, which isn’t the case at all. And so then a Battalion Chief reported that to the Fire Chief and I was written up. I think it was a formal, there was an inquiry then I was written up only three months later. And at that point the dispatch tape had expired. We were dispatched to the hospital saying that they would have to shut down because their chillers had stopped working so the hospital had no AC and patients were over heating and so with them not being able to control the climate, they were saying that they would have to move people out to other facilities and had people bringing them box fans so their loved ones were being taken care of there, so I never threatened to shut down the hospital and I think what happened was, actually, we did a very good job and there’s probably audio on that; I had to go through several recorded investigations but the dispatch tape would probably clear everything up because I was on there quite a bit as a lieutenant talking about what was going on. I was going to meetings with staff and we did a lot of work to fill those chillers with water to try to help it get going. My acting driver for that day found the issue with a checked valve and was able to restore the water supply to the chillers so to me, we had a successful job. I didn’t hear any complaints from NCH. So, again the language about shutting down the hospital was there concern, and it was one that I can certainly understand. We had people who were sick and they’re over-heating, it would probably aggravate that, so anyways, and there was also in that same reprimand there was something about a valet supervisor complaining about an incident that he was given a rash of grief and I was kind of written up for that too, which I was able to provide documentation during that incident. What happened was, I was investigating a fire alarm at a parking garage at Naples Community Hospital where the Wellness Center is, and I was with property management and my Driver Engineer apparently, at the time, he’s since retired, but he said something to someone about a truck being parked in front of a fire department - 10 - connection which is against the fire code. When I came back from clearing the alarm and finding no hazards, he told me about him talking to somebody about that, so, I said, “ok, well, thanks, I’ll report that to the fire marshall.” So I gave a narrative about how Driver Engineer Ferreira- council- not council, but basically he spoke to somebody about moving the truck parked in front department connection. I wrote this to the Fire Marshall that if he could send an inspector down and see if there’s any issues with that and that we understand why that needs to be freed up and so provided that that did get removed from my written but the NCH declaimed that I made that comment at Naples Community Hospital regarding shutting it down remained and again, that issueVLS: That was grieved? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I did grieve it because I didn’t do it and I felt that you know everything I do here, I come to work, you can see my education; I have a graduate degree in Consumer Quality Management, when I go to calls I know that I represent the City of Naples and I do my best job to make people happy. Whether it’s a minor issue and someone just needs help to you know serious calls – like fires and cardiac arrest I always try to show compassion and do the best job that I can possibly do. And to have something written down on my record- I felt that was just really unfair to my service and what actually did occur was not the truth and I worked very hard at that incident to do the best I could. To restore the A/C at that unit and we were throwing laddersadvancing large diameter 2.5 inch hose lines to try and fill these chillers (illegible). At the end of it we were very sweaty- all of us as a team, it wasn’t just me but as a team we were doing our best effort. There was some gossip and that gossip was relayed up to the Fire Chief and it just spun out of control so I had to grieve that because again, I didn’t feel that was an accurate depiction of who I am as an employee- or what actually occurred that day. VLS: What happened as a result of the grievance? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I went through the grievance all the way up to the Assistant City Manager and I wanted to take it to arbitration. I received an email that my grievance had been- that my written reprimand had be rescinded and that I was going to receive an oral counselor. And this was like 6 months down the road- so they basically put everything that they had written me up on into an oral counseling because then it’s not provable. VLS: So then there was no way you could take it further? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Right. And again, that’s not what (illegible) VLS: Any other disciplinary actions? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: That’s it. VLS: Just the two – what really isn’t even probably a record in your HR file, the end result is two oral reprimands that you disagree with? - 11 - LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes. And with the first one I was trying to explain, there was really another thing- it was really kind of hard to swallow was that there was no follow-up. I guess my complaint regarding the employee and how you approach me, and that behavior is just not acceptable in the workplace. VLS: Do any of those issues that we’ve discussed in response to my questions about disciplinary action, do you attribute any of your dissatisfaction with the way things were handled to Chief McInery? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Not entirely, it wouldn’t be fair to say it was solely Chief McInery. Like I mentioned with the NCH – it started with I felt like it gossip, bad mouthing me from acting battalion chief to a battalion who then in turn made a joke about me and the Chief might of taken it serious or – it went out of control from there. I received a call from that battalion chief who made the comment to the Chief and really got this going that – he wanted speak with me off the record and that they had discussed with the Chief after the informal inquiry that there was really nothing there –but per this Battalion Chief the Chief still wanted to pursue it. So, again it was not entirely him that I could attribute that incident to. However, I think that one of things I try to do as a supervisor is cut gossip out. You know, the facts aren’t there if you don’t have a complaint with something that legitimate, and people are just speaking badly of somebody else… you kind of have to stop that because it’s not good for the team and it’s not professional. VLS: [BREAK] We are back on the record with Lt. Zunzunegui interview, it’s about 9:40. I want to change gears here Lieutenant and show you the letter dated October 21, 2015 from the Union which really the subject matter of my inquiry. Have you seen this before? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes. VLS: Are you a member of Local 2174? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes I am. VLS: Ok, and I’m not getting into Union matters, I’m not going to ask you whether you signed the letter, what I do want to do is go through the points that are enumerated in the October 21 letter and ask you if you have any information that may be pertinent to those bullet points. So let’s start with the first one which is that the Chief has misled the community and City staff. In particular, he has created the misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities. Are you aware of any information that would support or refute that point? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: No. VLS: Ok, the second point is that the Department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity. Are you aware of information that relates to that point? - 12 - LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: No. The only discussion ive heard on that topic is how they code calls now and I just think that’s an issue of finding out whats the proper manner to do that. VLS: Has there been a change in how incidents are coded in your carreer with the Fire Department? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I believe so, it depends. Usually if a change is required, I’ll get that through the chain of command- through my battalion chief- hey this report needs to be classified this way- but I think what the back start of that was that the National Incident Fire Reporting system felt that actual structure fires were being underreported, so anytime there was smoke or flame in the home they wanted that changed to a building fire in the software. I don’t remember whether someone from the state or one of the public consultants during a council meeting brought that up- so again, this comes down ok, what is NIFRS want? And are we complying with it? VLS: Were you ever interviewed or did you participate in any discussion with a consulting group PSSI that came in? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes. I wasn’t interviewed, but they came down the station and I was cooking- you know it was meal time and I was making chili, so we invited them to sit down and they spoke with us and it was nice to just- we talked to them with about some of our concerns, they kind of asked there and it was my whole shift at my station so that was nice that they wanted to hear how we felt about the department and where it could go- maybe we could change. But I’ve never had a direct – other than that conversation and offering chili, which they ate- I never had a direct interview (illegible). VLS: Have you read the PSSI report? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I’ve read most of it, it’s a very lengthy report so I tried to get everything I could out of it at the time it was published it (illegible). It was a pretty thick report so I did my best to try – we were asked to find any issues with the report that were inaccurate. VLS: Did you find anything with what you did review that was inaccurate? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I think I sent an email to my Battalion Chief about – they had written something about that we rely on North Naples- which is now North Collier Fire Rescue District they’re training facility for live burns, which at that time – I’ve never other than when I was at the Academy, I’ve never done a live burn evolution with North Naples which is now North Collier and at that time we had a class A burn trailer and we were doing a lot of the evolutions and dividing of the County agencies out and to partake in this event. I guess we needed –again, with live fire training instructor – you need x amount of people to count for safety, you need adjuncts at least to take people in and performing evolution. So we were inviting everybody- so that was the only thing I saw because I felt that we were actually doing a lot of that. - 13 - VLS: I see, and you indicated that through the chain of command, in response to the question directed to note any changes? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes. My battalion chief said you know, if you guys please review it – please see something we are looking for –for whatever’s inaccurate and that was the one thing that stood out to me. VLS: Anything else with regard to that second point that’s in the Union’s letter that the department’s integrity is in question due to Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage and intensity? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I personally do not have any knowledge of that claim, I have nothing to support that claim, sorry. The only thing I can offer you is the explanation about the discussion I’ve heard about – NIFRS on whether that’s right or wrong, but that to me is just an issue of clarifying. VLS: Do you have much direct interaction with the Chief? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: No, there are times where I’ve offered to help with training, we took a couple of reporters in city staff and threw a search scenario and some fire scenario skills that we do (illegible) year so they got to experience that – that was one of the times where the Chief was there- during the time I volunteered to help with that. So if he happens to be on scene, or at a training evolution- then that’s typically the interaction I get, but really nothing on any discussions. VLS: Just for my own clarification; you use the term “training evolution”, what does that mean? I’ve never heard the term- I’ve never heard evolution, I don’t know what that means. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I think its fire search (illegible) basically, we did like where they had to pull a hose line – we had a I think we borrowed the door prop from the county- the EMS department which also means firefighters. So they had to force a door, pull a charge hose on- going performance search while they are pulling in the charge hose line with the (illegible) camera, building that they call “St. Georgeon the Dragon” it’s still there, its vacant now- but it was charged with fake smoke so they got to experience how heated you get and a series of training- what we call training evolutions just to get these people that aren’t fire service professionals- what it is and how labor intensive it truly is. So I help with that. VLS: Let’s look at the third point in the Union’s letter – that the Chief’s misrepresentation, exaggerations and outright mendacity have created a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire-rescue personnel. As a result, the Chief has lost the ability to effectively lead the City’s firefighters. Do you have any information relative to that? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: No. - 14 - VLS: Do you believe there is a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s firerescue personnel? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I can’t speak for everybody. VLS: No, I’m not asking you to. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I think that there’s probably strong portion of Union members that have their issues with the Chief, but me personally, to be honest- I don’t really have a lack of trust with the Chief, so that’s how I would answer that. I know there is some things that happened to others and they are not happy about it. VLS: Are you aware of the Chief making any misrepresentations, exaggerations, or lying to city fire-rescue personnel? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: No. you know we talked earlier about that written reprimand that was rescinded including oral- and that was the only time I felt there was been misrepresentation my character. But again, it wasn’t like he was solely part of it- he’s a director and he’s hearing things. But in terms of maybe like some real exaggeration and what was going on with the city fire-rescue fire department creating a lack of trust; I have no knowledge of anything like that. VLS: Ok, and the fourth point; the Chief has attempted to influence and otherwise cause the Union to undermine some City objectives. Do you have any information that might be relevant to that point? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I’m not a Union officer- it’s kind of… I don’t have any information on that. VLS: Ok, let me see what else I have to ask you. Were you recently asked to prepare a Memo of a visit by a City Councilman to fire station 1? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes. VLS: Ok, I am going to show you what we mark as number 3, it’s a 3 page document. Is that the document that you prepared? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: It appears so. Its (illegible). But it looks like from just reading from the top two paragraphs it’s me. VLS: So you were present when Councilman Doug Finlay came to Fire Station 1? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I’m sorry, let me just make sure this isn’t really a …. Yes actually I was present with firefighter Frictione- who was acting as a Driver Engineer and the probationary fire fighter named Will Forton and we happened to be the only people at the station at the time. VLS: Was this an announced visit? - 15 - LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: I was told in the morning, from the Battalion Chief, what I understood that the Fire Chief would be coming with the councilmen- and to just prepare and make sure that we do our jobs and the stations clean and you know everything’s in order. So we knew that some part in the day that the councilman was coming, but then later I was informed that the Chief was not coming with the councilman. My battalion chief didn’t come, so it was kind just was going to be and the other company who happened to be a training (illegible) and ladder company onewhich was (illegible). VLS: So the Battalion Chief that told you that a councilman and perhaps the Fire Chief were coming, that was you Battalion Chief? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes, my Battalion Chief. VLS: Did BC Bruner give you any other specific instructions about the visit? As to what you should or should not do? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: No, I didn’t really get any instruction- just that he was coming and (illegible) along the station, so that was – VLS: Ok, and were you asked by anyone to prepare a document summarizing that visit? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes, through the chain of command. I was told that the Fire Chief wanted a detailed transcript of the (illegible) visit and the discussion during that visit between the councilman and personnel at Fire Station 1 that day. VLS: Ok, so who through the chain of command told you that the Fire Chief wanted a detailed transcript? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: It was my Battalion Chief, Timothy Bruner. VLS: Were you aware of that request that the Fire Chief wanted a detailed transcript before Councilman Finlay visited? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: No. VLS: So it was something that was asked after the fact? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes Mam. VLS: Was that communicated to you by Battalion Chief Bruner? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes, both- the visit, was communicated to me by Battalion Chief Bruner and the transcript with this visit was October 30 and I believe it was a Friday, and then you know we work 24/48 so when we came back to shift on Monday, I found out that morning, that a detailed transcript was needed. - 16 - VLS: So it was requested through your Battalion Chief Bruner on, like November 1st or November 2nd? That Monday following the October 30th visit. LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Right, so it was November 2nd I believe. VLS: And did anybody help you with preparing this transcript? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Not really, I wrote this out and as a supervisor, you know I realized that if you read this transcript there was some explanation about what other people what other people who were there said. It’s whoever people that were with me as the councilman asked his questions and we interacted. So, I try to be very open I have nothing to hide- so when I was done with it I allowed everybody on shift that day and proofread it and say hey if there are any issues that you can take or you think you’d like for me to change something because you think it was an inaccurate depiction of what you said – I kind of let everyone read it and I got a lot of “oh it’s a good letter”. VLS: And do you believe it accurately describes what was done and what was said? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: You know, again, I wrote it to my best recollection there because there was a lot that was discussed and so- again, not knowing – had I known that Friday, that I would be returning to work on Monday and writing something like this, I would have probably taken a lot of notes or maybe even use my IPhone and put my voice notes on there and recorded it so I could just provide that – you know and it’s very hard to go back in time in your brain and pick everything apart exactly how it occurred. But this is- I think, in my opinion, this was pretty accurate. VLS: Did anybody ask you to make any changes in it? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: No. VLS: Ok, did you feel – in any way, pressured to portray the visit is anything other than what is described in here? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Well, alright. To be honest with you; I described that experience I had with getting a written reprimand. I wrote this very cautiously- in the sense that I didn’t want to –and, this is something I discussed with everybody as well before the visit when I found out we were getting it is that I said- don’t engage in any negative dialog with this councilman regarding that (illegible) letter. Just be professional, be honest about anything he asked about the conditions of the station, personnel equipment- but don’t engage in negative dialog. So again, that’s what we did. When I wrote this letter I tried to make that very clear…that we in no way were insubordinate, we in no way engaged in that kind of talk. The things that we did speak to were some issues with the department and how each individual felt, and those were professional comments in response to questions. I was very (illegible) again, because I’ve been in a situation where someone says “This guy did this” and it turns into something they informally put into your file which I really…personally- and some people might not care about that; I do, I take it to heart and I want if someone in the public said “hey I want to know everything about Lt. Daniel Zunzunegui, can I see his file over here… can I see his - 17 - records?” I want them to see very good positive things about me nothing like what was written in that. I did write this in a way that I felt and conducted this walk through with the station with councilman in a way that I felt could not be misrepresented or skewed to look like we were doing something insubordinate or unprofessional, so I was very cautious with it. VLS: Did the councilman ask you anything about the letter from the Union? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: To be honest with you, he didn’t ask about that but he made some comments about the Chief and again, we didn’t… we just looked at him. It wasn’t something you could even reply to- I forgot what he said. But he did say a few negative things and we didn’t engage back with him and the one thing I said that kind of made it clear we weren’t going to do it is “If you have a personal problem, that’s your problem. I just hope your looking objectively at the fire department and what needs to be done and that personal issues aren’t what’s driving your decisions or your point of view on where the fire departments at”. And that kind of made it clear I think that we weren’t going to engage in negative dialog. I didn’t really include that in the letter because at the time I was writing it, it didn’t really come to mind. I was more focused on the real issues that he (illegible- arose?). VLS: Ok, did you have any communication, phone calls, emails, texts back through the chain of command about the document that you prepared, which is, we’ve marked as Exhibit #3? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes. I found out later that this was sent to the City Manager and the Chief both. There was a very complimentary email about me and the City Manager wanted to forward this and then the City Manager said to give –told them to give me (illegible). There kind of was like an (illegible) chain emails back to me so. I was very happy because again, my goal was to make it clear that we did a good job like we would any station visitor. VLS: Any other communications through the chain of command about the visit? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: No, I don’t think so. It was just I kind of got cc’d and I did write that- you know, thanks for the kind words, something like that at the end of it. VLS: Understanding that the mission I’ve been charged with is to conduct an inquiry into the allegations about the Chief that were raised in Local 2174, October 21, 2015 letter. Is there anything additional that I may not have asked you about that you feel is important or may be important to my inquiry? LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: No, I really don’t have anything to add to that to my knowledge. Most of that is very limited- I wish I could be more helpful. VLS: That’s fine. I have asked, and I will try to remember to send you a follow-up email the additional document I’m looking for is- are the documents associated with your seeking promotion to the training position this year. - 18 - LT. ZUNZUNEGUI: Yes Mam. VLS: Thank you very much and it’s about 10:10am and we are concluding Lt. Zuzunegui’s interview. - 19 - RECORDED INTERVIEW OF LT. COREY ADAMSKI ON 12/07/15 VLS: Okay, today is December 7, 2015 and I have introduced myself, my name is Vicki Sproat. I am with the law firm of Henderson Franklin. It’s a Fort Myers law firm. Uh, and I have been retained by the City of Naples to conduct an inquiry into allegations that were made in about Chief McInerny in a letter dated October 21, 2015 that was sent by Local 2174 to the City Manager and, um, I have asked you, um, Lieutenant Corey Adamski to come in for an interview. We are in a conference room in the Human Resource Department at City Hall and I just want to go over a few things before we get started. Um, do you understand that I am going to record this interview. LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay, and I, uh, also want to inform you that City policy requires employees to be forthright, truthful and cooperative in responding to inquiries or investigations such as this one. Do you understand that? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And you also understand that it is against City policy for the City Fire Department to retaliate against you in any way because you are participating in this interview. LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And if you feel that you have been subjective to retaliation, do you understand that you should report that to Human Resource Department. LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay. Um, Will you state your full name. LT. ADAMSKI: Corey James Adamski. VLS: Okay, and how long have you been employed by Naples Fire & Rescue? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, a little over 8 years. VLS: Okay. What is your current position? LT. ADAMSKI: I am a Lieutenant Paramedic. VLS: Okay. Um, and to what Battalion are you assigned. LT. ADAMSKI: C shift. VLS: And so what Battalion Chief do you report to? LT. ADAMSKI: Chief Pete DiMaria. -1- VLS: Okay. Um, tell me your progression through the ranks at the Fire Department. What was the position that which you started 8 years ago? LT. ADAMSKI: I started as a Firefighter. I then passed by State EMT test, took my EMT test and became a Firefighter EMT. I went to Paramedic school and became a paramedic as well. Um, at 3 years of employment, I took the Lieutenant’s promotional test. Um, and was an acting Lieutenant. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: After. Before Paramedic school, I became an acting driver/engineer as well for the Department. VLS: Alright, and do you currently serve as acting Lieutenant in the Battalion Chief DiMaria’s absence. LT. ADAMSKI: Uh, I am actually, I was actually promoted to a Lieutenant in the.. VLS: Oh, I see. I am sorry that was acting Lieutenant, not acting Battalion Chief. Okay, in April of what year? LT. ADAMSKI: 13 VLS: Okay, and that is your current position, Lieutenant? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Do you act, are you an acting Battalion Chief. LT. ADAMSKI: I VLS: In DiMaria’s absence. LT. ADAMSKI: I have recently started doing so, yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay, and how many times have you been the acting Battalion Chief for Battalion C? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, twice for C shift. Take that back, twice for A shift and once for C shift. VLS: Okay. Alright. Um, tell me about your educational background. LT. ADAMSKI: Um, um. Um, to get into the Fire Department, I went to Fire school. At the time through Lorenzo Walker and North Naples Fire Department. Um, I went to EMT school at Edison College it was at the time, now it is Florida Southwest and it has like five names. VLS: Um, um. -2- LT. ADAMSKI: Um, I got hired. I went to classes to become a pump operator which is 2 classes plus a State test. VLS: Where did you get the classes? LT. ADAMSKI: Uh, through local companies, I believe that was (leafing through papers) there are a lot of them in here. Laughs. VLS: What did you bring with you today, a notebook, um with the information on your background, qualifications LT. ADAMSKI: Yes. I brought a book with me with letters of commendation, awards, letters of appreciation, class certificates, State certificates and National certificates. VLS: Okay, and are these, did you at some point in time apply or respond to a letter of interest in connection with the training Battalion Chief. LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am, I did. VLS: Okay, and when was that. I know that I caught you in the middle of a question, but… LT. ADAMSKI: Laughs. Um, earlier this year. Prior to September 18. position was officially filled and sent out to us on September 18. Um, the VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: It was in the Summer some time. I don’t remember exactly June or July. VLS: Now, the documents that you have with you today are those all documents that you provided in connection with your interest in being considered for the position. LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay. In addition to, I am just looking across the table, and I see that in the notebook are a number of certificates and letters and so forth, does that also contain the e-mail or letter that you sent to the Chief indicating your interest in the position. LT. ADAMSKI: No, madam. I did not bring that with me, but I can forward it to you. VLS: I would like to receive that LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Yes, okay, and I don’t know whether it will be easier to make a copy of what you brought today. Were these the backup documents that you brought today were those also furnished to the Chief in connection with your… -3- LT. ADAMSKI: This is actually the folder that I keep with the originals. VLS: Yes. LT. ADAMSKI: Uh, the Department does have copies of them in my personnel folder. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: Um, I, we can definitely get you copies. VLS: Okay. I have seen your personnel file. Is there anything that has been added to your personnel file recently. LT. ADAMSKI: I do not believe so. VLS: Okay. Well let’s just go back and go over some of the main things. We were, I, it was asking you about the pump operator. You said that was 2 classes and you took a State test. LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And you were looking to see where the pump, you took the classes for pump operator. LT. ADAMSKI: Yep. That was through a company called Rescue Resources. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: I believe that they are no longer in business. VLS: Okay, and the State test you take through LT. ADAMSKI: Um, it is organized through the State Fire College and you take it at a Pierson View Center. VLS: Okay, um, did you personally pay to attend the pump operator classes? LT. ADAMSKI: I don’t remember. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: Laughs. VLS: Does the Department reimburse you for some, um, educational courses? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay. Is there a set amount that you are allowed to use per year? -4- LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, it is $2,500.00 a year per person. VLS: Okay. Alright, so I was asking you about your credentials and you told me that you went to Fire school, you got your EMT, got your Pump Operator certificate, is that what it is called. LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Um, tell me what other certificates you have obtained? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, after my Pump Operator certificate. I started taking classes towards my State of Florida Fire Officer 1 certification and obtained that. VLS: State of Florida Fire Officer 1. Um, and what and you did achieve that? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay, and when did you become certified Fire Officer 1? LT. ADAMSKI: In, on November 5, 2009. VLS: Okay. Is the State of Florida Fire Officer 1 certification required to become a Lieutenant? LT. ADAMSKI: Either that, or a degree. VLS: Okay, and what do you, and what course of study, what do you learn, um, in the classes to become certified Fire Officer? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, the classes include building construction, um prevention classes, such as sprinkler systems and private protection systems, um, there is a company option class which deals with leadership and personnel management. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: There is a course delivery class which is how to train people. Um, there are incident management courses involved, ICS courses, and they just recently changed it, after I got mine, so I am trying to remember. Laughs. All the classes. VLS: Where did you get the schooling to get your certification as a Fire Officer 1? LT. ADAMSKI: It was a mixture of Rescue Resources and Reisen Safety Training. VLS: Horizon? LT. ADAMSKI: R E I S E N Safety Training. VLS: Okay. Did you go outside of Collier County to obtain that training? -5- LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Where did you go? LT. ADAMSKI: Most of it was in Lee and Collier County. VLS: Um, what other certifications, degrees, education do you have? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, I have obtained a Hazardous Material Technician certificate. VLS: When did you obtain that? LT. ADAMSKI: August of 2010. VLS: Okay, where did you obtain that? LT. ADAMSKI: Uh, through Cape Coral. VLS: Okay, and what was the required to get that certification? LT. ADAMSKI: It was a 160 hour course plus a State test. VLS: Okay, other, um, certificates or degrees? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, certified in Technical Rescue, which involves confined space rescue, trench rescue, structural collapse, and high angle rescue. VLS: Where did you obtain that certification? LT. ADAMSKI: There, um, each of those are just classes and they were kind of sporadic throughout, mixed in there. I’ve got the certificates available. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: If you want copies of them, I can send them to you. VLS: Okay. If those were in your personnel file, then I am sure that I will see those. Any other certificates or degrees. LT. ADAMSKI: Yep. I obtained my Associates in Fire Science in December of 2013, I believe. VLS: And from what school? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, College of Central Florida. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: Um, I have obtained my Instructor 2 certificate. -6- VLS: Okay, when did you get your Instructor 2 certificate? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, June of 14? VLS: Okay, where did you obtain the education to get that. What was involved in becoming certified as an Instructor. LT. ADAMSKI: Um, the Instructor 1 is a 6 years of service, plus course delivery course. Instructor 2 is a course delivery and course design, plus an Associate’s degree and 6 years of service. So I had my, before I obtained my degree I had my Instructor 1, and then once I obtained my degree I got my Instructor 2. VLS: Okay, and when you talk about getting, um, like, course design and course delivery what type of courses are you learning to design and deliver? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, anything from these classes that qualify you for the certification as well as training inside your Department. VLS: Okay. Any other certificates or degrees? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, um. Um, I have obtained my Live Fire Instructor 1. VLS: When was that obtained? LT. ADAMSKI: It’s in here somewhere. Um, June of 2014. VLS: Okay, and what do you, and what course of study do you pursue to get your Live Fire Instructor 1? LT. ADAMSKI: On top of the Instructor certificate that you have to already have, you have to take another 40 hour course and take a State test. VLS: And what is covered in, what is Live Fire Instructor mean? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, most of the Live Fire Instructor class goes over the technicalities and legalities and safety of live fire training exercises. There is a whole State Statute built on live fire training. So that is most of what that course goes over, and how to keep people safe in doing so. VLS: Okay. Other certificates or degrees? LT. ADAMSKI: I have obtained my Fire Investigator 1 and Fire Investigator 2. VLS: When were those, those were certifications? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. My Fire Investigator 1 was August of 2010 and my Fire Investigator 2 was September of 2014. VLS: Okay. Any other certificates or degrees? -7- LT. ADAMSKI: Um, I believe that is it except for like CPR, ACLS, Pals, um, qualified certified surface rescue swimmer. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: And, certified teacher (illegible) provider. VLS: Certified LT. ADAMSKI: Uh, it’s a Tactical Combat Casualty Care, it’s a trauma class based on gunshot wounds and trauma in a tactical environment. VLS: Um, what is your understanding of, um, what the minimum education is, certification requirements are to become a Battalion Chief and to become a Battalion Chief? LT. ADAMSKI: Uh, from what I understand, um, it is above that of a Lieutenant. Um, the minimum requirements for a Lieutenant were a degree, Fire Officer 1, and other certificates were preferred as well. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: I would, I don’t know, um, what the requirements were because that was never put out to me. VLS: Okay. You were not informed what, you weren’t informed of what the, um, minimum, education or training requirements were to become Battalion Chief Trainee. LT. ADAMSKI: There was never an official job posting. VLS: Okay. Alright. Um, let me get back to some other questions about your background and experience. Have you during the time that you have worked for the Naples Fire Department, have you generally been assigned to Battalion C? LT. ADAMSKI: Nope. VLS: Okay. What other Battalion’s LT. ADAMSKI: Um VLS: Have you been assigned? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, the only ever been assigned to B shift, was the only other one. VLS: Okay, and when did you move from B to C? LT. ADAMSKI: In 2008, I moved to C shift for a few months. VLS: Okay. -8- LT. ADAMSKI: And moved back to B shift. Somebody asked me for a, to flip/flop with them so they could go to Paramedic school, and then in October of 12, I moved back to C shift. VLS: Okay. What Station are you primarily assigned to? LT. ADAMSKI: Fire Station 1. VLS: And has that been true for most of your career? LT. ADAMSKI: Since I came to C shift. VLS: Okay. So you would consider based on C shift, um, Battalion Chief Pete DiMaria to be your immediate supervisor? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay. Um, do you have any special administrative duties that are assigned to you that aren’t assigned to other Lieutenants? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: What? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, I am in charge of our Biohazard Medical Waste Program. VLS: Okay, tell me what that is? LT. ADAMSKI: I coordinate with an independent service provider that comes and picks up our biohazard trash once every 4 weeks. Um, I make sure our sharps containers, that are right above our biohazard waste containers are kept not full so we can fill them, use them, and make sure that we are still compliant with keeping everything locked and secured. VLS: Okay. Do you have any other special administrative duties that are not shared by other Lieutenants? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. I also am the coordinator for the Hazardous Material Response Team which is a faction of the Countywide District Response Team. VLS: Okay, what does that team do? LT. ADAMSKI: This team is responsible for the hazardous materials, (coughs, clears throat) pardon me, responsible for the Hazardous Materials Response And Weapons Of Mass Destruction Response is how it is titled. Um, we have 4 team members, and we are responsible for hazardous materials, incidents and scene cleanings within the City of Naples jurisdiction. VLS: Alright. When did you become the coordinator of the hazardous materials. -9- LT. ADAMSKI: August of, last year, 2014. VLS: Okay. Any other special administrative duties that you have? LT. ADAMSKI: No, madam. VLS: Um, my, just so you understand, um, my task, my mission, um, is to conduct an inquiry of the allegations that are set forth in this October 21, 2015 letter. Have you seen it before? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay. When did you first see the letter? LT. ADAMSKI: Uh, the first time I saw the letter was at this meeting that we held in October. VLS: Okay. You are a member of the Union. LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay. And I am not going to ask you if you signed it, or what happened in that meeting? Um, you, but I do want to go over the allegations in the letter. There are 4 enumerated points in the letter and I want to go through each one of those and find out what, if any, information you have pertaining to those. So let me hand this to you. I think the 1st point in that letter that bears the number is that the Chief has mislead the Community and City staff in particular he has created the misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities. Um, do you believe that statement is correct? Or do you have any information that pertains to that statement? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, all of the information that I have based on the equipment that he has ordered is, um, has been things like our fire boat that he originally requested, um, of upwards of half a million dollars for a boat. VLS: Okay, and do you believe that there were, that the Chief made, mislead the Community with regard to the, um, need for that fire boat, or for a particular fire boat. LT. ADAMSKI: Absolutely. VLS: Okay, and um, what is the basis for that opinion? LT. ADAMSKI: He was requesting a boat the size of the City, the port of Tampa was using. VLS: Okay, and why in your opinion was that, um, misleading? LT. ADAMSKI: The City of Tampa is an international port that receives large shipping container ships, and large commercial ships, as well as hazardous materials, drop offs, - 10 - (clears throat) and I believe that to be quite overzealous for the City of Naples and that the response that we have in the Bay. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: And that just off the coast. VLS: Alright. Did the City, did the Fire Department get a new fire boat? LT. ADAMSKI: Earlier this year? VLS: Okay, and is that what the Chief had requested? LT. ADAMSKI: No, ma’am. VLS: Okay. Do you believe that the fire boat that has been purchased by Naples Fire & Rescue is adequate? If you know. LT. ADAMSKI: I, I’ve been on it. It’s a very functional boat. It runs very nicely. Um, the only thing that it is lacking is a fire pump. VLS: Okay. Is that something that is in the works? LT. ADAMSKI: I believe so, yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay. How do you know what it was that the Chief was requesting as far as the larger half million dollar or more fire boat. LT. ADAMSKI: The presentations that he put on in front of City Council. VLS: Okay. Did you attend those, or do you have a video? LT. ADAMSKI: I watched it from the Station or on-line. VLS: Okay, and what did, do you believe the Chief represented or stated that was a misrepresentation? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, I believe, I just believed that it was excessive in nature to regards to the hazards that we are dealing with on the water. Um, you can look at the hazards that we run on the water and most of them happen to be in my experience medical emergencies or lost or missing boaters or swimmers. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: There are hazards associated with fire VLS: Okay, yes. LT. ADAMSKI: Um. - 11 - VLS: Um, and you don’t believe that size fire boat, um, was necessary for the vast majority of your hazards being lost, being lost or missing boaters or medical? LT. ADAMSKI: I believe it was excessive. VLS: Okay. Um, what did the Chief, did the Chief represent to Council that there were other hazards that the fire boat needed to respond to? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, fires that, which, obviously like I said is a hazard that we do have (clears throat), however, one other aspect that he brought was that we could use it as a water supply down in Port Royal. VLS: Okay, and do you believe that to be inaccurate? LT. ADAMSKI: With the proper amount of personnel, I believe that it could happen, um, but with the personnel required on scene of a fire and to also operate the boat, we are, we would be severely lacking in personnel. VLS: Anything else that you believe constituted a misrepresentation to Council or the Community about the fire boat? LT. ADAMSKI: Not that I am aware of, directly. VLS: Anything else that relates to the 1st point in the letter that alleges that the Chief has mislead the Community and City staff by creating the misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities? LT. ADAMSKI: I am not directly involved with the budgetary items. Um, we did have money set aside to remodel our Station 1. VLS: And when was, during what, do you know during what budget years that money was set aside? LT. ADAMSKI: Last fiscal year. VLS: Okay, and was that money used to remodel? LT. ADAMSKI: We… VLS: Did you know? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, we had money set aside to remodel. We had discussed plans to remodel the Station, and presented an idea to the Chief through our Battalion Chief. Um, and it was turned down in hopes of building a new Station. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: And money was returned to the City General Fund. - 12 - VLS: Okay. Um, who was it that discussed and discussed a plan or idea that was presented through your Battalion Chief? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, myself and Chief DiMaria discussed a plan to possibly create individual bunk rooms at Fire Station 1 and create a single work-out space so we did not have some of our work-out equipment being, becoming rusted in the Bay, some of it inside and some of it next door in another individual building. VLS: Okay. Anything else that was in, um, your ideas for remodeling the Station 1? LT. ADAMSKI: I believe that is it. VLS: Okay. Was any, did you or Battalion Chief DiMaria attempt to determine the costs of those remodeling LT. ADAMSKI: No. VLS: Costs LT. ADAMSKI: We simply presented the idea as a thought and it was turned down. So we did not move forward with it. VLS: Okay. Alright, were you, um, were you part of the presentation to the Chief about those, uh, changes, being the, single bunk rooms, and single work-out space? LT. ADAMSKI: No, ma’am that went through the chain of command. VLS: Okay, and how did you learn that the Chief had rejected those ideas? LT. ADAMSKI: Through the Battalion Chief back on the way down the chain of command. VLS: Okay, so through Chief DiMaria. LT. ADAMSKI: Um, um. Yes, ma’am. VLS: Um, do you know whether any of the funds that were set aside to remodel Station 1, whether any of those were expended during fiscal year 2014? LT. ADAMSKI: I do not know. VLS: Okay, and you said something about that the monies was, what was your understanding of why the plan was rejected and the budgeted amount was not spent. LT. ADAMSKI: Um, what I was told back, when we, after presenting the idea to the Battalion Chief was that the money was now, that he did not want to spend the money to remodel the Station and wanted to wait until we built a new Station. VLS: Okay, do you believe, um, Station 1 needs to be replaced? - 13 - LT. ADAMSKI: No, ma’am. VLS: Okay, then why do you say that? LT. ADAMSKI: Cost benefit. VLS: Okay. Have you, do you know whether any studies have been undertaken by any outside sources to determine whether the Station 1 facility needs replaced? LT. ADAMSKI: I believe there was a study that was done. I do not remember the name of the company. VLS: Do you know when the study was completed? LT. ADAMSKI: I do not. Right off the top of my head, no, ma’am. VLS: And what do you believe that that study showed? If you know. LT. ADAMSKI: I am not 100% positive. I do remember them saying that, I believe I remember them saying that the Stations were in need of major repair or replacement. VLS: Alright. Anything else with respect to the 1st point in the letter, um, that states the Chief has mislead the Community and City staff by creating the misimpression of need where they do not exists with regard to apparatus and facilities. LT. ADAMSKI: Not that I am involved in. No, ma’am. VLS: Okay. Let’s move to the 2nd point which is, and this is the 2nd enumerated point in the Union’s letter that the Department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity. Do you believe that 2nd point is a correct statement? If you have any belief at all. LT. ADAMSKI: I believe it is. VLS: Okay. Um, and what is the basis for your belief? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, I have been on calls where we had an AC motor that burned up a belt and we had to report it as a building fire. VLS: Okay, so that in your opinion would be a misrepresentation or exaggeration with respect to the fire call? LT. ADAMSKI: I believe that it, I believe from my understanding of the (illegible) reporting system that it would be something along the lines of an overheated motor or a mechanical hazard instead of a building fire. VLS: Okay, and where did you get your training on the first coding? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, just from what the Department has provided. - 14 - VLS: Okay. Um, what from your (illegible) training constitutes a fire vs hazard such as an overheated motor? LT. ADAMSKI: Flames inside the building. VLS: Okay. You believe for something to be a fire under (illegible) there has to be some evidence of flames currently existing or existing in the past. LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: Something, the fire tetrahedron has to be complete in order for there to be a fire. VLS: Okay. You just said a word that I have never heard of. Fire what? LT. ADAMSKI: Tetrahedron. VLS: Can you spell that? LT. ADAMSKI: Laughs. I.. VLS: This is a test. LT. ADAMSKI: T E T R A H E D R O N VLS: What does that mean? LT. ADAMSKI: The fire tetrahedron used to be the fire triangle, which it was a heat source, fuel and oxygen when they were all three brought together, um, you had a fire. The fourth side was brought in when they said the process that brought them together. How they became a fire. VLS: Okay. So what is the potential fourth part of the tetrahedron. LT. ADAMSKI: Well, if I have electricity in the wall, I have paper in the building, and have oxygen in the building, the fourth part would be how the paper and oxygen and electricity became together to start a fire. VLS: Okay, and an overheated motor would not be considered a building fire because, why? LT. ADAMSKI: The chemical chain reaction of fire, I don’t believe is there. I, I. There can be charring without fire, there can be heat without fire. Sorry, the proper definition of that fourth side is I believe is the chemical chain reaction. VLS: Okay. You did not know that you were going to have to come and teach me. - 15 - LT. ADAMSKI: Laughs. VLS: I don’t pretend to be knowledgeable in this area so I appreciate your assistance. Um, so how is it that you have been informed that, for instance, an AC motor burning up a belt should be coded as a building fire. LT. ADAMSKI: Through my chain of command. VLS: Okay. So through your chain of command would be directly to you from the Battalion Chief. LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay, and is it your belief that the Battalion Chief was instructed by the Chief. LT. ADAMSKI: To my understanding. VLS: Okay, and that is because that is what your Battalion Chief communicated? LT. ADAMSKI: My Battalion Chief tells me that I need to do something, and I say yes, sir. VLS: Okay. But, it was your understanding that it was not the Battalion Chief that was making that determination, rather came from above, even though you were not prevue to that communication. LT. ADAMSKI: From my understanding, yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay, um, and is, so in your view class find, or coding an AC motor being, burning up a belt as a fire would be a misrepresentation or exaggeration? LT. ADAMSKI: From my understanding, yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay, and how do you believe that should be coded? LT. ADAMSKI: As an overheated motor or a mechanical hazard. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: I know VLS: There is coding LT. ADAMSKI: (talking over VLS) I don’t know the specific code number for it. Laughs. VLS: I understand. LT. ADAMSKI: But yes there is something in there. - 16 - VLS: Okay. Um, was this a single incident where you were instructed through the chain of command to code something in a manner that you believed misrepresented or exaggerated a call. LT. ADAMSKI: I believe there were multiple incidents in that same realm. VLS: Okay, any, can you put any number on that, any estimate? LT. ADAMSKI: Not really. There were a lot of calls. Laughs. VLS: Alright, and has that occurred over a, what time period, have you been asked through the chain of command to change the coding on incidents that you believe resulted in a misrepresentation or exaggeration? LT. ADAMSKI: Since being a Lieutenant. VLS: Okay. I’m sorry what was the date of that again? LT. ADAMSKI: April of 13. VLS: Okay. Um, do you actually do the coding on an incident report? LT. ADAMSKI: If I read the report, yes, ma’am. VLS: And have you ever written up a report and then been told to change the coding? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay. That would come through the chain of command. LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And that would be the type of incidents that you described, such as, I mean was that, for instance you brought up a specific example of an overheated motor, um, was that an incident report that you prepared? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay, and were you asked to change the coding of that or were told in advance coded as a fire. LT. ADAMSKI: I believe I have done them both ways. VLS: Okay. Alright. Um, have you ever been directly witnessed the Chief requesting that a incident be re-coded or that coding be different than what you traditionally file it? LT. ADAMSKI: No, ma’am. - 17 - VLS: Okay, so what you know is what you believe through hearing it from the chain of command. LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay, um, and do you know why, um, the Chief would want to misrepresent or exaggerate the coding of fires? LT. ADAMSKI: No, ma’am. VLS: Okay, do you believe that the Chief has misrepresented or exaggerated damage caused by fires? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay, and what, uh, what leads you to that, um, belief or conclusion? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, when filling out incident reports, I have put in a number, and been called and told to change it. VLS: Okay, and who has told you to change the values, damage values? LT. ADAMSKI: Through my Battalion Chief. VLS: Have you ever been instructed, um, directly by the Chief or been a witness to his instructions to change a damage amount? LT. ADAMSKI: Not directly. VLS: Okay. Can you give me an example of a situation where you through the chain of command have been asked to change a damage value? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, specifically, what comes to mind is that a car fire where we looked up the actual value of a car and then it was changed to be something more. VLS: Okay. Do you recall when that was? LT. ADAMSKI: No, ma’am. VLS: Alright, and what type of car was it? LT. ADAMSKI: I do not remember. VLS: Okay, and what was the difference, and where did you look to determine the value of the car? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, we look at Kelley Blue Book. VLS: Okay. It was at a complete loss that particular car fire? - 18 - LT. ADAMSKI: Don’t really remember. VLS: Okay, and do you recall what, um, were you instructed to increase the amount of damage listed? LT. ADAMSKI: I have never been asked to lower it. VLS: Okay. Do you recall whether it was a significant increase in what you had determined the value to me? LT. ADAMSKI: I don’t remember the specific numbers. VLS: Okay. Does that happen on more than one occasion? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Alright. Um, do you believe that the Chief has made misrepresentations or exaggerations with regard to the intensity of fires? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, I believe the intensity is a matter of opinion. VLS: Okay, and where on an incident report would the intensity be described? LT. ADAMSKI: Uh, whether, depending on who fills out the report, what conditions they met. VLS: Okay. Um, uh, with it being a matter of opinion, have you ever been asked to change or reclassify your description on an incident report of the intensity of the fire? LT. ADAMSKI: Not that I can think of. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: I never had to change a narrative. VLS: Okay. And that is where you think intensity is largely reflected is in the narrative portion? LT. ADAMSKI: That is where someone would put what conditions they were met with. VLS: Alright, any other examples of what you believe are misrepresentations, exagger, what you believe are misrepresentations or exaggerations on the Chief’s part with respect to fire calls and damage? LT. ADAMSKI: Not that I have been directly involved on, no, ma’am. VLS: Okay. Um, let’s go to the 3rd point in the October 21 letter which states that Chief’s misrepresentations, exaggerations and outright mendacity have created a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire-rescue personnel. As a result, the Chief - 19 - has lost the ability to effectively lead the City’s firefighters. Do you believe that to be correct statement from your perspective? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay. In what ways do you believe the Chief has misrepresented, exaggerate or lied that has created a lack of trust? LT. ADAMSKI: Well, in regards to the training Battalion Chief position that you asked me about earlier, when he, when the Fire Chief put out that he was hiring somebody, he put in there at the end of it (find his e-mail), um, any questions, good afternoon, please see the attached memorandum 15-032 regarding Fire Department Training Safety and EMS Bureau Battalion Chief position. Any questions, please let me know, thank you very much for your time and cooperation and assistance. Steve, then his signature at the bottom. VLS: Okay, did you bring that document with you? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am I did. VLS: Is that an extra copy? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay, I would like to mark that as an Exhibit to your interview. Just mark it as Exhibit #1. LT. ADAMSKI: Um, um. VLS: And what you are referring to, um, is the first in a chain of e-mails that begins Friday, September 18, 2015. LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay, and um, is there more to this e-mail chain that is pertinent? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay. If you will tell me, continue with your description. LT. ADAMSKI: Um, on three separate occasions on the dates of September 30, October 26, and December 1, I requested a meeting with the Chief to discuss the position including how to better prepare myself to help, um, better prepare myself in my Résumé for future Battalion Chief positions. Um, and how to help the Department grow and become better in the future. VLS: Okay, and did you receive any response to those e-mails. - 20 - LT. ADAMSKI: Only from my Battalion Chief to let me know that he forwarded them on. VLS: Okay. Do you believe the Battalion Chief forwarded them on soon after you sent them to the Battalion Chief? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay. So you would have, so your e-mails were directed to, were directed through the chain of command. LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay, um, did you express to the Chief in some fashion that you were interested in the Battalion Chief position that had been vacated? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay, and how did you express your interest in the position? LT. ADAMSKI: The Chief sent an e-mail. I did not bring a copy of it with me. Um, requesting Interest Statements as long as well as a Résumé with qualifications, training, um. VLS: Okay, and did you respond to that e-mail? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And did you bring with you today your Interest Statement and Résumé you submitted? LT. ADAMSKI: No, ma’am, but I will forward it to you. VLS: Would you please do that, you can forward it to the e-mail that is on my business card. Okay, um. LT. ADAMSKI: You keep this copy or is this… VLS: Pardon me. You can write on the back of that LT. ADAMSKI: (illegible) . VLS: Sure. LT. ADAMSKI: Just so I remember what I need to send you. VLS: Yay that would be great. Did you have any type of direct meeting or communication with the Chief about the Training Chief position? - 21 - LT. ADAMSKI: No, ma’am. VLS: Um, when did the Training Chief position become available? LT. ADAMSKI: I believe in June? VLS: Of 2015? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And it became available through a vacancy? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. Our previous Training Chief retired. VLS: And LT. ADAMSKI: It was June or July, I am not quite sure of the date. I would have to double check with you. VLS: When was the Training, when did the, who was the prior Training Chief? LT. ADAMSKI: Bill Moyer, William Moyer. VLS: Okay. Um, do you know of other internal candidates who responded to the Chief’s e-mail by submitting Interest Statements and Résumés? LT. ADAMSKI: I believe Driver/Engineer Kofsky Lieutenant Pecar, Lieutenant Zunzunegui, and VLS: Okay. Did you believe that you were qualified for the position of Training Chief? LT. ADAMSKI: I believe that I have the education and training to fulfill that position. Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay. Do you know whether Lieutenant Pecar, Lieutenant Zunzunegui or Driver/Engineer Kofsky were interviewed by the Chief? LT. ADAMSKI: I do not know. VLS: Okay. Have you applied for any other positions with Naples Fire & Rescue that you have not received? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, no, ma’am, no other positions were put out openly. VLS: Okay. Um, by the way, I don’t think I asked you this before, um, do you receive regular performance evaluations? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. - 22 - VLS: And, how would you characterize the performance evaluations you have received annually? LT. ADAMSKI: I score, um, how are they worded, exceeds and meets its expectations on all of them. VLS: Okay. Have you ever been the subject of any disciplinary action? LT. ADAMSKI: I was written up when I was on probation for being late. VLS: Okay, anything else? LT. ADAMSKI: No, ma’am. VLS: Alright. Um, when did you learn that the Battalion Chief Training position had been filled? LT. ADAMSKI: When the, Chief, (laughs) sent out the e-mail. VLS: Okay, and when did the Chief send out an e-mail? LT. ADAMSKI: On September 18 of this year. VLS: And who was selected to fill that position? LT. ADAMSKI: A gentleman from Fort Lauderdale named Philip Pennington. VLS: Okay. Do you know when the offer was extended to Philip Pennington? LT. ADAMSKI: No, ma’am. VLS: Um, are you familiar with, um, Phil, Philip Pennington’s credentials, background, and experience? LT. ADAMSKI: From what the Chief has sent out, the, um. VLS: Is that, what, how you are familiar is what the Chief has sent out? LT. ADAMSKI: Uh, yes, ma’am. Uh, he sent out an e-mail with his qualifications. VLS: Okay, and have you reviewed the qualifications that were listed in the Chief’s email? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And, do you believe that the qualifications of Philip Pennington that were described in the Chief’s e-mail, um, qualified, do you accept those as true qualified him for the position? - 23 - LT. ADAMSKI: No. VLS: Why? LT. ADAMSKI: We just sent him to take the classes to become a certified Instructor a couple of weeks ago. VLS: Certified Instructor at what level? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, Fire Service Instructor. VLS: Okay. Number One? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, because he does have his Bachelor’s degree which is in his qualifications, he will automatically go to an Instructor 3. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: Once he has the classes. VLS: Alright. Did he have any type of certified Instructor certificates, um, to your knowledge based on what you saw in the e-mail? LT. ADAMSKI: No, ma’am. Not to my knowledge. VLS: Then why do you believe that being a certified Instructor is key to the position of Battalion Chief Training? LT. ADAMSKI: Well, being that it is a Training position, um, I believe that a person should be well versed on how to train personnel on the fire ground. VLS: And, the training that you learn in certified Instructor, is that go to both Fire and Rescue? LT. ADAMSKI: It is geared more towards presenting classes. Um, not specifically geared towards either way. Just geared towards presenting and developing classes and how to. VLS: Alright. So the basic skills in, in instructing? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay. Um, and where, how did you learn that Chief Pennington had not achieved his certified Instructor, or his instruction certification and that he had been sent to get that training after he started? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, well in the, memo that the Chief sent out on the 18th, it did not have the certifications in there. Um, it had his degree and positions held in there, but no certifications. So, I asked. - 24 - VLS: Who did you ask? LT. ADAMSKI: I asked my Battalion Chief. VLS: And that was where you learned that he was being sent for the those certifications? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay. Um, in reviewing the e-mail from the Chief on Phil Pennington’s background and experience and certifications, were there other things that were in that e-mail, or not in that e-mail that led you to believe that he was not qualified for the position? LT. ADAMSKI: From what I understand from the e-mail, he does not have a Fire Officer 1 certificate. VLS: Okay, and what is the significance of that? LT. ADAMSKI: If it is a requirement to be a Lieutenant, why wouldn’t it be a requirement to be a Battalion Chief? VLS: Okay. If it’s, and you believe it is a requirement for any Battalion Chief position? LT. ADAMSKI: I believe the requirements of the Battalion Chief to be higher than that of a Lieutenant. VLS: I understand. LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay. If you know whether since coming to the City of Naples, whether Pennington is in the process or has arranged to get that training. LT. ADAMSKI: I don’t know, ma’am. VLS: Anything else that leads you to conclude that Pennington is not, or was not qualified for the Battalion Chief Training position? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, not to my knowledge. VLS: Have you had any interaction with, uh, Pennington since his arrival? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And what has been the nature of your interaction? LT. ADAMSKI: Well, um, he, I requested a meeting with him to talk about hazardous material training and possibly getting some on-line training done. - 25 - VLS: Okay, when was that, um, how did you communicate with him? In person? By email? LT. ADAMSKI: Uh, e-mail through my Battalion Chief. VLS: Okay, and you wanted to schedule a meeting? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes. VLS: Was that meeting scheduled? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay, and what took place in that meeting? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, we went through our on-line training program which is Target Solutions to figure out if we could get some courses for hazardous materials on there. Um, and he was looking into it. VLS: Okay. So that matter has not been concluded one way or another? LT. ADAMSKI: Uh, no, it’s kinda difficult with the, it being a national thing, a national program, computer program. So I believe it’s still working. We are still continuing to train live and in person like we have been. VLS: Okay. Was there anything about your personal interaction with Pennington, um, that led you to believe further that he was not qualified for this position? LT. ADAMSKI: Not at all. The meeting was cordial and… VLS: Okay. Any other interaction with Pennington since his arrival on the job? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: What’s that? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, he conducted EMS training last month, I believe. VLS: And did you attend that training? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And who else attended the training? LT. ADAMSKI: On duty personnel. VLS: All on duty personnel? LT. ADAMSKI: I believe so, yes, ma’am. - 26 - VLS: Okay. And was there anything about the EMS training that Pennington conducted last month that led you to believe he was not qualified for his position? LT. ADAMSKI: I, not that I know. From what I understand, he is a very qualified EMS Instructor. VLS: Okay. Any other interaction with Pennington since his arrival in Naples? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, I think we did another training with him. We just did some hydraulic training he was at. It’s battery powered hydraulic training. We had a company come over and teach us how a new piece of equipment that we got. VLS: Okay, anything about that interaction that caused you to think that he was not qualified for his position? LT. ADAMSKI: No, ma’am. VLS: Um, going back to the letter and the 3rd point that the Chief made misrepresentations, exaggerations, lied by creating a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire and rescue personnel you brought up your experience in applying for the Training Chief position, was there anything else? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, as far as the lack of trust goes, yes. VLS: Yes. LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, absolutely. VLS: Tell me what else? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, when I was on light duty in 2013, the Chief came in first thing in the morning, asked Cathy Carrington if he had gotten an e-mail and printed out, uh, for his presentation, paperwork that he needed. Oh she said, no, I hadn’t gotten it to it yet, she was doing something else, and he berated her, told her that he was the most important person in this entire organization, and then said not to worry about it he would do it himself. VLS: Okay, and you were in the main headquarters because you were on light duty LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Is that the situation? Um, where did, where were you when you overheard, or oversaw that? LT. ADAMSKI: In the Battalion Chief’s office. VLS: Okay. And do you know what particular e-mail he was asking Cathy Carrington to get to? - 27 - LT. ADAMSKI: No, ma’am. VLS: Okay. Um, can you describe the tone of his voice and any actions taken? LT. ADAMSKI: Uh, he was loud and yelling. VLS: And how did Cathy Carrington respond? LT. ADAMSKI: She cried. VLS: Okay. Um, any other examples of misrepresentations, exaggerations, or lying on the Chief’s part that you believe has created a lack of trust between the Chief and City fire and rescue personnel? LT. ADAMSKI: Not that I am directly involved in. VLS: Okay. Um, since the Chief, um, came to Naples, has he promoted any inside personnel for positions at the Battalion Chief and above? LT. ADAMSKI: I believe, Chief, Battalion Chief Nichols was promoted off of a list that was created before Chief McInerny arrived. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: And then Battalion Chief Bruener was promoted while McInerny was here. VLS: Okay. Um, and has there been under Chief McInerny service a new Fire Marshall or Fire Marshall? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Appointed, and who was, what promotions or hires did he make for that? LT. ADAMSKI: He promoted Robert Rogers, Bob Rogers. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: From the Inspector, Prevention Bureau. VLS: Okay. So Rogers was inside the Department? LT. ADAMSKI: He was a Building Department Inspector. It, I was, I believe, it’s through the Fire Department but they work at the Building Department and not quite sure how those technicalities work. VLS: Okay. Um, I guess that we are finished with your knowledge on point 3. I am going to ask you about point 4 in the Union’s October 21 letter which states the Chief - 28 - has attempted to influence and otherwise cause the Union to undermine some City objectives. Is that your opinion? LT. ADAMSKI: I am not an Union officer, so I am not involved in that. VLS: Okay. So you have no direct information that would pertain to that allegation. LT. ADAMSKI: No, ma’am. VLS: Okay. Um, if I can go, may I take that letter back, did you bring some other documents with you that you believe are pertinent LT. ADAMSKI: Um, I brought VLS: to understanding what my, um, LT. ADAMSKI: Yes. VLS: statement purpose is? LT. ADAMSKI: One of our regulations here, Regulation 106, Chain of Command. VLS: Yes. LT. ADAMSKI: It also does have that we have an open door policy in reference to my e-mail chain. VLS: Okay LT. ADAMSKI: With the Chief. VLS: Okay and that is the e-mail chain that we marked as Exhibit #1. LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: May I marked this as Exhibit #2? LT. ADAMSKI: Absolutely. VLS: Okay, so you, is your position that Exhibit #1 demonstrates that the Chief was not following the chain of command as set forth in Regulation 106.0? LT. ADAMSKI: I believe, not the chain of command, ma’am, the open door policy. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: In Section 3 right here. VLS: Okay, thank you. - 29 - LT. ADAMSKI: Um, the other document that I brought is SOG 20 which is Self Contained Breathing Apparatus. VLS: Okay, what’s the significance of that? LT. ADAMSKI: Uh, on two instances involving structure fires that I was involved at where Chief McInerny was present, um, he directly violated this policy. VLS: Okay. I am going to mark this SOG 20 as Exhibit #3 and how did the Chief on two separate incidents violate that? LT. ADAMSKI: Our fire at Goodlette Arms in September of last year. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: Chief McInerny entered a building in slacks and a polo shirt. VLS: Okay. And that was the violation of SOG 20? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. He entered a building with a potential hazardous atmosphere without any protective clothing or SCBA on. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: There was smoke coming from the windows. VLS: Okay. I’m not suggesting that this is appropriate, but did anyone bring that to his attention if you know. LT. ADAMSKI: Um, I am not quite sure. As soon as he came back down, um, he reiterated the fact that there was smoke on the 3rd floor, um, my firefighter and I made entry and began rescuing civilians out of the building. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: So I wasn’t really involved in much with him. I watched him run right past us into the building. VLS: Do you know why he entered the building in the first instance? LT. ADAMSKI: No ma’am. VLS: Okay. And what’s another, you said there was two examples of the Chief violating SOG 20. What was the other example? LT. ADAMSKI: The other example is, uh, the building fire we had this year, I believe it was June. VLS: Where was the fire? - 30 - LT. ADAMSKI: On 18th Avenue South, 475 18th Avenue South. Um, after the initial fire was knocked down, I was assigned to conduct air monitoring throughout the structure to see if we could allow personnel inside the structure without SCBA’s on. VLS: What are CBA’s? LT. ADAMSKI: SCBA VLS: SCBA? LT. ADAMSKI: Self Contained Breathing Apparatus VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: It’s an air tank with compressed air in it that goes to a mask that we put on our face to provide us fresh air while we are inside a hazardous atmosphere. VLS: Okay. What happened at that building fire? LT. ADAMSKI: After we reported over the radio that the carbon monoxide levels were over 100 parts per million, uh, and said it was not safe to be in without breathing apparatus, Chief McInerny decided that he wanted to go inside and look at the building without a CBA on, um, Lieutenant Nadelman advised him that he needed to have a breathing apparatus on after he walked up to the front door and Chief McInerny made entry into the building anyways. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: And also happens to be the fire where he injured his eye. VLS: Okay. Was anyone else injured at that fire? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Who else? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, Firefighter Robert Moore. VLS: And what happened to Firefighter Robert Moore? LT. ADAMSKI: Something fell and hit him on the shoulder. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: And just came back on duty last shift actually. VLS: Pardon me. LT. ADAMSKI: He just came back on duty last shift. - 31 - VLS: Okay. Um, do you know why Chief McInerny was going in to the structure on 18th Avenue South? LT. ADAMSKI: No ma’am. VLS: Okay. Uh, do you know whether Chief McInerny was needed inside the structure to assist with firefighting efforts? LT. ADAMSKI: In plain clothing without tools, I don’t believe he would have been much use inside a building fire, ma’am. VLS: Were you physically present to witness, um, Chief McInerny enter the 18th Avenue South building without the SCBA? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Um, were you present to, um, overhear, uh, Nadelman advise Chief McInerny, um, not to make entry? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay. Did Chief McInerny respond to Nadelman’s advice? LT. ADAMSKI: Responded, yes. VLS: What did he do in response? LT. ADAMSKI: Told him not to worry about it. VLS: Okay. Do you know where the Chief went upon entering the structure? LT. ADAMSKI: No, ma’am. VLS: Okay. And how did you learn that he had suffered an injury to his eye in that fire? LT. ADAMSKI: Because we had to write a report on him. VLS: Okay, um, was that a report separate and apart from the Incident Report? LT. ADAMSKI: It’s attached to it. VLS: Okay, what’s it called? LT. ADAMSKI: Um, a Fire, a Firefighter Injury Report. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: Or Firefighter, Fire Department Personnel Injury Report. - 32 - VLS: Okay. So would one had been prepared on both Robert Moore and the Chief? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay. Um, and were you involved in actually writing up the Firefighter Injury Report on the Chief? LT. ADAMSKI: No, ma’am. VLS: Who was? LT. ADAMSKI: I don’t know. VLS: Okay. Did you ever see that report? LT. ADAMSKI: Uh, I have not seen the actual injury report, um, it’s, I believe it is part of the HIPAA thing. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: I, I just did not look at it. VLS: Was there anything else that was unusual about the 18th Avenue South fire? LT. ADAMSKI: No. I can’t think of anything. VLS: Okay. Anything else that you brought with you that understanding what my stated reason for being here is that you want to bring to my attention. LT. ADAMSKI: Nope. VLS: Okay. Let me just, before we go, let me just take another look at the letter and see if I have LT. ADAMSKI: Absolutely VLS: additional questions. Uh, and another point in the October 21, 2015 letter it states that it is the member’s shift’s position that Chief McInerny has created a poor working environment and has shown a lack of leadership and an inability to make sound decisions on matters effecting the Community. Is there anything additional that you want to add to your comments? First of all do you agree with that statement? LT. ADAMSKI: I don’t know. VLS: Let me show it to you. It’s the 3rd paragraph. LT. ADAMSKI: (Clears throat) I would say that I would have to agree with. - 33 - VLS: Okay, and is there anything additional that we have not already discussed that you would like to bring up in connection with that 3rd paragraph? LT. ADAMSKI: No, ma’am. VLS: Okay. Um, were you, did you participated all in the consultant’s visit to the Naples Fire Department and in particular I am referring to a company called PSSI. LT. ADAMSKI: Uh, yes, ma’am, we had a sit down meeting at the Station with them. VLS: Okay, and what, so that would have been at Station 1? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And you recall who it was from PSSI that was at that meeting? LT. ADAMSKI: I do not recall specific names. No, ma’am. VLS: Man or a woman? LT. ADAMSKI: One of each. VLS: Okay, and was it just a single visit to Station 1 that you were present for? LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And what occurred at that sit down? LT. ADAMSKI: Oh, we asked them questions, they asked us questions, um, involving staffing responses, their background. VLS: Okay. Have you ever read the PSSI Report? LT. ADAMSKI: Some of it. VLS: Okay, was there anything that you, did you focus on any particular sections of the Report? LT. ADAMSKI: Uh, I paid attention because I am in charge of Hazardous Materials team. I did read that one pretty thoroughly. It did talk about, um, you know more cooperative training throughout the County and we have gotten with the other Departments to organize more training. VLS: Okay. report? Did you agree with at least the Hazardous Materials portion of their LT. ADAMSKI: From what I read, yes. - 34 - VLS: Okay, um, when PSSI came to Fire Station 1, did they question those present about the relationship between, um, management, and the Union? LT. ADAMSKI: I don’t quite remember. VLS: Okay. You believe most of their questions had to do with staffing and responses. LT. ADAMSKI: Um, from what I recall, staffing responses, they credentialed themselves with us, told us their backgrounds, experiences and stuff like that. Um, they were kinda shocked to see our staffing levels at the Station. They thought that they were waiting for more people and there were only 5 of us that day, so. VLS: Alright. Do you believe that the current staffing, or the staffing at the time PSSI came to Fire Station 1 was adequate? LT. ADAMSKI: No. VLS: Okay. Um, and did you agree with their recommendation that I think was 3 LT. ADAMSKI: 3 personnel on a large apparatus? VLS: Thank you. Yes. LT. ADAMSKI: Yes, ma’am, I do agree with that and I believe Chief McInerny agrees with that as well. VLS: Okay. LT. ADAMSKI: That is one thing that Chief McInerny has completely reiterated in front of Council and the City is that we need more staffing. VLS: Okay, and you agree with that. LT. ADAMSKI: Wholeheartedly. VLS: Okay. Would that you review the PSSI Report with regard to the section on apparatus? LT. ADAMSKI: I did read it. Um, they did make, are you talking about the section where they talked about cross staffing units? VLS: I am not really referring to anything in particular? LT. ADAMSKI: Okay. VLS: Is there an observation that you had upon reading the PSSI Report on apparatus, as it relates to apparatus. - 35 - LT. ADAMSKI: Uh, they just, they had multiple ways of staffing different apparatus that I recall. Um, cross staffing, taking personnel off a truck and moving them back and forth or increasing staffing levels, things like that, but that is about as much as I remember from the apparatus portion of it. VLS: Anything else you would like to bring to my attention. LT. ADAMSKI: No, ma’am. VLS: Okay, with that we will conclude your interview and I, um, would ask that you provide me with that one document which is what you submitted to, about your interest in the position of Battalion Training Chief, and let me ask you in connection with that, how was that information submitted? LT. ADAMSKI: E-mail. VLS: To whom? LT. ADAMSKI: With my Battalion Chief, through chain of command. VLS: Okay, so it would have gone, it would not have been direct, addressed directly to Chief McInerny. LT. ADAMSKI: If it was my Battalion Chief was cc’ed on it because it said to please respond to me. VLS: Okay. Very good. No further questions. Oh yes, one further question. Was everything contained within your submission concerning your interest in the position of Battalion Chief Training, um, accurate? LT. ADAMSKI: As far as I understand, yes, ma’am. VLS: Alright. Thank you. And with that, we will conclude the interview of Lieutenant Corey Adamski. It is now about 2:00 p.m. #2155677 - 36 - RECORDED INTERVIEW OF BATTALION CHIEF PETE DIMARIA 11/19/15 VLS: We are back on the tape. It is about 12:10 and I’m here with Pete DiMaria. It is November 19, 2015 and I’ve introduced myself. I am Vicki Sproat with the law firm of Henderson Franklin in Fort Myers. I have been retained by the City to conduct an inquiry into allegations that were raised in, allegations of misconduct on the part of Fire Chief Steve McInerny in a letter by the Local 2174 to the City Manager dated October 21, 2015. So just to explain that’s why I am here. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Okay. VLS: And I’ll give you a copy of that letter. You probably have seen it. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. The Chief sent me a copy. VLS: We are in a conference room at the Human Resources Department. DiMaria, you do understand that I am going to record this interview? Mr. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I do. VLS: And before getting started with the interview, I would like to make several statements. City policy requires employees to be forthright, truthful, and cooperative in providing information in connection with an inquiry or investigation. Do you understand that? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes, I do. VLS: And City policy also provides that retaliation against an employee for participating in an investigation or assisting, you know, somehow in an inquiry is prohibited. Do you understand that? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes, I do. VLS: And do you understand that if you feel that you have been retaliated in any way because you have participated in this investigation or inquiry that you should notify the Human Resources Department. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. On that point, though. VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: The day after I guess this letter was, became knowledge. I received this in my basket cause I am a member of the department that is in the DROP plan and the highlighted section explains that I’m an at will employee. And, I thought it ironic of the timing and it was in all three of the Battalion Chiefs’ basket the day afterwards. When I came to work, I saw that. And I did, at the time I brought it to Denise and I didn’t want to make a big deal out of it, but I just thought it would be a good idea that someone knew about it. -1- VLS: Well I appreciate you bringing that to my attention as well. Is this a copy that I can keep? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: That is the original, but you can keep it. I don’t need a copy. I signed this documentation when I went into the DROP so I, I know exactly what it says and I know what I agreed to. VLS: When you signed this documentation, by the way, just for the record, this is a 3page document that says at the top, City of Naples, Policer Officer’s Retirement and Pension System Application to Participate in the Deferred Retirement Option Plan. When you signed it, this was identical to what was sent to you the day after receiving the letter? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. This is a document I signed when I went into the DROP, yeah, so, I know all these, you know, the rules about being in the DROP and what I need to do and, you know, not allowed to do. So, I just thought it was ironic and I don’t know how it, how it fits into all this, but. VLS: How was that transmitted to you, the 3-page document? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: When this was put into my in-basket at the office. VLS: Do you know who put it in the in-basket? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Well, when I got it, I asked our secretary, Kathy. She said she didn’t do it. And I talked to the Fire Marshall and asked if he got one and he said he didn’t. So, I don’t know who put it in there. I can assume, but. VLS: There is a portion of, the document that you handed me, has a paragraph highlighted. Was that highlighted when it was placed in your box? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes it was. VLS: And that was your particular concern because it seemed to highlight the fact that you were an at will employee? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: That’s correct. And I’ve been with the City for 26 years and I have never gotten an even average evaluation. Every one of them has been exceeds so I, I know that I would never put myself in a position. This also says that you have to get an unsatisfactory evaluation. So I know I would never be in that position, but it’s still, I don’t know whether it was, you know, intimidation or whatever. I hate to make an accusation that I don’t know about. But it sure did, the timing seemed really weird. VLS: Was that something that you talked to the other Battalion Chiefs about that also received the same document? -2- BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. We all, we all got it and we all were curious to how, you know, how this would happen [illegible] such, you know, the timing wise. VLS: And just go over the timing wise, since you brought it out, the letter that I’m conducting this inquiry or investigation, it’s a letter dated October 21, 2015. So are you saying that this 3-page document about the DROP program was in your mailbox on October 22, 2015? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It was the, my following shift when I came in, it was in my basket? VLS: Very good. Anything else that you want to bring to my attention about concerns of possible retaliation or? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: No. And, honestly, like I said, I’m not really concerned about that. I know Mr. Moss and Mr. Reinke are honorable men and I don’t, I would never question how that would happen. So I feel very good about, you know, the policy and that all. VLS: Okay, thank you. Alright. I’ve given you my business card and let me explain that if something comes up, you start thinking about something you wanted to tell me or something you want to correct or a document that you want to send me, you can feel free to send it to me by e-mail. Because we’re conducting the interviews by, you know, we’re tape recording those, if you want to add something, I mean want to talk to me, we probably would record that conversation, but feel free to e-mail me anything additional while this inquiry is still going on. Would you please state your full name? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Peter DiMaria. VLS: And what’s your current position at the Naples Fire Department? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Battalion Chief. VLS: And you are Battalion Chief of what shift? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: C shift. VLS: How long have you been with the Naples Fire Department? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Over 26 years. VLS: I think you told me that, but. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. VLS: And tell me where you started, what your position was and what your progression has been to your current position? -3- BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: So I started as a firefighter here in 1989 and I worked my way through the ranks to Driver Engineer and then Lieutenant and then at the position I’m at now, Battalion Chief. VLS: When did you get promoted to Battalion Chief? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I took an interim position in 2004 and that went on for almost a year and then the promotion process came up and I tested against a couple other personnel. I finished first on the list and I got the job in 2005. VLS: And when you go the promotion to Battalion Chief in 2005, who was the Chief at the time? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Chief McEvoy. VLS: Alright. So when you became a Battalion Chief, you were no longer a member of the bargaining unit? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: That’s correct. VLS: So you haven’t been a member of the bargaining unit since 2005? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: That’s correct. VLS: When you were a member of the bargaining unit, did you hold any officer positions? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I did. I was President of the Union for 11 years. VLS: Alright. Who did you replace as Battalion Chief? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Mark Houghton, I believe. VLS: Do you know how to spell that? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: H O U G H T O N. I’m not 100% on that. VLS: Alright. As Battalion Chief, well let me ask this. Do you know whether there is a job description in the City for a Battalion Chief? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Oh yes. VLS: And have you looked at it recently? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Not recently. But, I’m familiar with it. VLS: Do you think that the job description accurately reflects what it is that you do? -4- BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: For the most part. I think currently the Battalion Chiefs do more than we’ve ever done in the past. When I started in 2005, the job was completely different as far as administrative work. I was, pretty much what a Battalion Chief does, I supervised the shifts and was responsible for major incidents in the City in the role of an incident commander. I made communication and travelled to the stations throughout the day. The current position is more administrative. I sometimes don’t get an opportunity to visit with the stations, although I’m out on the road late into the evening sometimes to make sure I get there. I currently do the budget every year, I write all the requisitions for the fire department, I approve expenditures. In 2005 I was in charge of the special operations team and I still am in charge of the special operations team. It is just a broader team with a lot more activities and more moving parts. So the job has grown since then. VLS: Alright. When did you, now when you say you do the budget, you write requisitions and you approve expenditures. Do the other Battalion Chiefs have those same administrative duties? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: No. VLS: Are Battalion Chiefs then assigned some specific duties that – BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: That’s correct, yeah. VLS: Are just theirs to do? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. VLS: And how long have you had those additional administrative duties of budgeting, writing requisitions, approving expenditures? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: When Chief McInerny got here, he wasn’t familiar with the system that we used, so, I had a little bit of experience with it. I wasn’t very familiar with it, but I took it upon myself to figure out the program with SunGard and continue with that. And it kind of, my role kind of expanded until I was actually working on the budget every year, approving requests and, for the following year. So I, you know, it just kind of expanded from there. So, I’d say since Chief McInerny got here, I’ve been doing that. VLS: When you say you do the budget, explain for me what you mean by that? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: So, when the budget comes around May and April, all the officers will put in requests for – they don’t have ancillary duties, you know, relative to their specialties. For example, one of the lieutenants is in charge of all medical supplies. He’ll make a written request that for the upcoming budget I need X amount of dollars for medical supplies and, you know. I get all these requests, I organize them on an Excel form and then I go through and legitimize whether they’re good requests or they’re too much, you know, on an estimation of what we used in previous years. -5- Considering, you know, [illegible] any calls or whatever. And I figure out the dollar value that I’m going to assign to each line item and go from there. VLS: And then where does the Chief weigh in on that budget process? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Usually, I keep him apprised at where I’m at most of the time. Like, I’ll come into his office and say, Chief, I’m 20% over last year’s budget. I have to continue working on cutting some items out. And, you know, sometimes he’ll give me things that he wants to add in too, so I have to work with that. And, you know, when it comes right down to the last few weeks before we go in front of the City Manager, we’ll both usually sit down and I’ll tell him where we’re out and he’ll say cut a little more out of that or add a little more here, find a way to shift things around. VLS: And so, but he is the, ultimately the – BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He is ultimately responsible. VLS: And how have you found the process of working through the budget with the Chief? Does that, in your opinion, run smoothly and appropriately? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yeah, yeah. I mean, more than anything, I think is the timing. He’s busy and he’s hard to pin down to get some finalized answers on stuff I feel I shouldn’t be making the final decision on because it really should be his. But when I do get with him and we do have an opportunity to sit down, I think it usually goes pretty smooth. VLS: And you feel that he listens to your recommendations on budgetary matters? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. VLS: Now, as far as the other two, you’re the first Battalion Chief I have interviewed. But, so, this will assist me as I get ready for the other interviews, what do the other two, I guess maybe there is three Battalion Chiefs, but the other two Battalion Chiefs, within your fire operations divisions, what special administrative duties do they have? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Chief Nichols is in charge of the CAD, which is a Computer Aided Dispatch. Most of the computer calls, the computer items, excuse me, ImageTrend, TeleStaff. ImageTrend is our [illegible] writing system and TeleStaff is the program we use for our staffing every day. VLS: Okay, thank you. And what about – BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Chief Bruener has the responsibility of the stations and the apparatus. So when we do our pump checks on Mondays, all the paperwork goes to him. Problems with the stations usually go to him. But then sometimes they work their way back around to me because everything’s gotta get paid for, so, we just kind of communicate all of this together and we work as a pretty good team, the three of us, so. -6- VLS: Where do you physically report to work? What do you consider your office? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: 355 Riverside Circle. I’m in the same area as the police headquarters. We’re just kind of in the back of the building. VLS: And that’s where the Chief’s office is as well? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes, his office is right next to me. VLS: And what other personnel of the fire department are at the 3555 Riverside Circle? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It’s 355, I’m sorry. VLS: 355? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yeah. There’s, obviously the three Battalion Chiefs, we share the same office. The Training Chief has an office there. The Fire Marshall and his, part of his employees, the inspectors are there. The Chief’s admin assistant. VLS: And who is his admin assistant presently? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Kathy Carrington. I really can’t she’s the Chief’s, she helps all of us. She works for all of us, she works for all of us, and the Chief as well. VLS: And do you interact with him on a daily basis? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I’m – I work shift work so one every three days, so normally, we interact. VLS: And is most of your interaction in person or is there a lot of interaction through email or texting? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Both. I mean, we do, you know, we use all the technology that we have. You know, we’re e-mailing, we’re texting, we’re talking on the cell phones, we have face-to-face meetings quite often, so. VLS: Are there any, is there any schedule for, you know, regularly routinely scheduled meetings of the Chief and the Battalion Chiefs? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: The last staff meeting we had was November of 14. VLS: And, when you say staff meeting, a staff meeting would consist of what? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: The Chief and the Battalion Chiefs? VLS: And what was the regularity with which you met before November of 2014? -7- BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Maybe every six months. sporadic. It’s gotten a little more VLS: Has that been the case since the Chief came on board? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. Chief McEvoy had a monthly staff meeting. So, it was a little difficult for us to change gears to the long length in between the staff meetings. But he, Chief McInerny, did discuss stuff, things with us. It was just, you know, we would end up talking about the different things that the Chief talked with us so by the three of us sitting together, we would figure out kind of where we we’re going. VLS: Is there an acting Battalion Chief for, you’re the Battalion Chief over shift C, is that right? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. VLS: Is there an Acting Battalion Chief for your – ? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: For my shift? VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes there is. VLS: And who is that? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Adam Nadelman. Chad Haverkate. And there’s also another Sr. Lt. VLS: Can you spell that? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Haverkate is H A V E R K A T E. VLS: And then under what circumstances would he serve in an acting role? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: The few days a year that both I am off and Lt. Nadelman are off, then he would move into that position. VLS: Can you tell me who else the names of the other fire department personnel in Battalion, under shift C? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: All the names of them? VLS: How many is that? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: There’s 17. VLS: Let’s go down, in terms of positions underneath you, you’ve got lieutenants, of which you have how many? Four? -8- BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I have four, yes. VLS: What are the names of the four lieutenants? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Nadelman, Haverkate, the two you have there, Adamski and Lanzsera. VLS: Spell that? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: L A N Z S E R A. VLS: And are they assigned to different stations? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Haverkate and Adamski are at Fire Station 1, Nadelman is at Fire Station 2, and Lanzisera is at 3. VLS: And then beneath the, do the lieutenants supervise? supervisors of the rest of the members of your Battalion? Are they the direct BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. VLS: So, who would they supervise? What other positions? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I’ll start with Adamski, supervises engineer Bice, firefighter Moore. VLS: Who would be, those would be at Station 1? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Station 1, yes. Haverkate would then have engineer, Wright, firefighter Christensen, firefighter Bleiweiss. All those are at Station 1. VLS: And Lt. Nadelman? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Engineer Ortega, Engineer Clissold, firefighter Ocana, Minor, Bitri. Am I missing anybody? And McKay. And then Lanzisera supervises DE Klein, Engineer Klein. VLS: Does Acting Battalion – Yeah, you didn’t know you were going to be grilled on this, did you? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I know. VLS: Lt. Nadelman, when he is serving as the Acting Battalion Chief, does he report to the Riverside Drive address? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes, he does. VLS: And how often does he serve in the Acting Battalion Chief role? -9- BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Maybe 15 to 20 times a year. Depending on how much leave I take. I usually don’t take a lot of leave so I have a Kelly day every six weeks and then I have to take about ten shifts off a year for personal leave to get into my – . VLS: I want to now move on to the reason that we’re here which is to find out, for me to find out information that may relate to allegations in the October 21, 2015 letter. So, I’m just going to give a copy of that to you so we can kind of go through it together. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Okay. VLS: First of all, when did you first see the letter? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It must have been October 21, late in the evening. The Chief sent me an e-mail that had the letter on there. VLS: And what did the Chief’s e-mail to you say? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I think it was like just an FYI. VLS: Did you know that such a letter was coming, a letter from the Union expressing no confidence? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I knew they were upset. I visit with these guys every day and there were a lot of grumblings in the stations. VLS: And for how long, if you can even put some kind of a date on it, did you know that there was upset and grumbling among those firefighters that you work with? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Well, it seems to be like a little bit of highs and lows. So, it’s probably been going on for a couple of years. But, it would get to where the morale is down and then we’re able to bolster it and bring it back up. And then it goes for a while that everything’s in good shape and then something else happens and, you know, it’s back down in the dumps and then they’re complaining again. But, I imagine that could be in any profession, not just, you know, to the, to the, you know, unique to the fire service, so. VLS: Do you know of any events that immediately participated the letter? In other words, had your, had the firefighters that you communicate with expressed some specific concerns that you think prompted the letter coming out when it came out? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. I, I would say that maybe the genesis of this might have been because the Chief, you know, lied to them about hiring, looking at internal guys for the Training Chief position and then ultimately they discovered that he had Chief Pennington from the City of Ft. Lauderdale which was the Chief’s previous department. - 10 - VLS: Anything else that you think that may have been the genesis or the reason for the letter coming out when it did? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: As far as when it did, I think that would probably be the key thing that happened. I mean, I know that there are other things, but I think that was, as far as the timing goes, when it came out then. I would have to guess, you know, I don’t know for sure, but it sure seems that way to me. VLS: So you, were you surprised to see the letter? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I was not entirely surprised, but yeah. I knew they were upset, I just didn’t know it would probably go this far. I kind of, I assumed they would possible, you know, meet with the Chief and try to, you know, work out their differences. So I didn’t realize that the letter would be sent to Council and City Manager and all that. I knew they were upset. VLS: I’m going to, I do want to get into the specifics of the promotion issue and any knowledge you have on that, but I’m going to move on for a minute. Has the Chief, other than providing you with a copy of the letter with an FYI, has he had discussions with you about the letter? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: No, I actually came into the office. It was an off-duty day and he was talking with the Fire Marshall and, you know, I popped my head in the office and we talked briefly. But, at that time I didn’t have an opportunity to read everything and kind of teased him about, you know, making friends again. He has a tendency to make more enemies than friends it seems like sometimes, so. But, other than that, there hasn’t been any conversation about it. VLS: And have you discussed the letter with any rank and file(?)? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Not with the guys. It’s a little awkward. Just, I have talked a couple, talked about a couple of things with Mike Nichols. We had, Mike and I had concerns about the direction of the department maybe two, two and a half years ago. We sat down and we had a discussion with actually Mike’s dad who is a citizen here in the City and another friend of ours that sits on the pension board and we kind of vented our issues to them. And, so we had, you know, we had concerns of stuff that was going on that, you know, I think we’ve come up a different way to previous Chiefs and we’ve done things differently. So, there was a curve, a learning curve, on how the Chief was attempting to get things accomplished [illegible] want it done. So, you we’re paramilitary, so we do what we’re told, you know. Sometimes we don’t like it, but we do what we’re told. And, you know, we had some discussions, so, we obviously, Mike and I are friends and we talk. So we talked about this so, when we read through this we, you know, we kind of knew some of the things that were in here. VLS: Anybody else that you’ve discussed the letter with in any detail? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Not detail. You know, Tim Bruener is the other Battalion Chief. We see each other every morning. When I go off duty, he comes on - 11 - duty and there might be a couple minute conversation. 119.071(3)(a) VLS: Did you have any communications with a former Battalion Chief, Vogel, about the Union letter of October? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He sent me a text afterwards. I’d have to look. It might have been the very day afterwards with like a smiley face or something saying that the Union made his day. And, other than that, we, I’ve tried to call him a couple of times, but he is the world’s worst communicator. So he never answers and sometimes I’ll text him and he doesn’t text me back for days. - 12 - VLS: How did, do you know how he found out about the letter? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I’m not sure. VLS: And did, were you aware that he has sent, that he sent a letter to the City? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I heard rumor of it, yeah. VLS: Have you seen it? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Uh-uh. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Although they, him and Sheldon Reed, which is a previous Chief, are good friends. Sheldon Reed was trying to call me the next day as well. VLS: He was a – who was Sheldon Reed? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He was the Chief before Jim McEvoy. I never did make contact with him but I know Sheldon and Tom are good friends. They both, once retired, they taught at the Jacksonville Training Center. VLS: Okay. When did Vogel – Vogel was a Battalion Chief? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He was. VLS: And when did he leave the City? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I’m going to take a stab at it and say 12, 2012. VLS: And did you continue to communicate with him in some way after he left? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yeah, yeah. VLS: And would you have discussions with him about your concerns or issues with the department? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes, because they were his concerns when he was here. VLS: And do you know what the circumstances were of his leaving the department? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He reached his retirement years, 25 years. We have a 25 years of service and you can retire. When he hit the 25 year mark, he left. VLS: But you have not, you heard he wrote he a letter, but you haven’t seen the letter? - 13 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Heard he wrote a letter, yeah. VLS: And was he – did he continue – he wasn’t living – when he retired, did he move? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He moved a couple of months after he retired to the Jacksonville area and then since he’s moved up to Ohio. He comes back and forth. Actually, when he is in Florida, I have a spare room. He, you know, bunks out in the room. VLS: And how often does he come back to Florida? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: His dad lives in the neighborhood, so every maybe four or five months. VLS: And has he been back to stay since the October 21 letter? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: No. VLS: I want to now focus on the letter itself from Local 2174 and I’m assuming you had nothing to do with the authorship of this letter? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: No. VLS: I’d like to focus on the third paragraph which says in summary it’s the membership’s position that Chief McInerny has created a poor working environment and has shown both a lack of leadership and an inability to make sound decisions on matters effecting the community. Do you agree with that observation? And, maybe that can’t be answered yes or no. I understand. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I think that there have been some misrepresented, misrepresentations, and exaggerations. I tried to make some notes so I - . VLS: I’ll tell you what. Let’s go through, as you have read the letter before and you realize that there are four enumerated points in the Union’s letter. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yeah. VLS: And maybe it would be best if we went through those. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: We can start with three, it’s fine. I mean my notes are really all over the place too, so there’s no rhyme or reason to it, so. VLS: Well, let’s start with, and I want to make sure that we hit every point that you have in your notes. But let’s start with the first enumerated point in the Union’s October 21 letter which is that “The Chief has mislead the community and City staff. In particular, he has created the misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities.” Do you know - well maybe that’s not a good - 14 - question. Do you believe that the Chief has created a misimpression of need where it doesn’t exist with regard to apparatus and facilities? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It’s a tough question because there is definitely a need. Maybe, I would say, I’m involved on a lot of these issues. The apparatus, I’ve been involved in. I led a committee to try to choose a new apparatus when it came time to replace one and I’ve also worked directly on the renovation of Station 1 and now the new construction of Station 1 I’ve kind of been involved in all the aspects. It seems more, it seems more like the Chief would have an idea that we needed this type of, we’ll say apparatus, and that whatever the committee came up with, was good information, but this was the apparatus we were going to buy. And, which I think is his prerogative as the Chief, and normally with pretty much no compromise. And I find the same thing, and as I’ve looked through my notes, I actually have nothing that’s relative to this all, but I find the same thing with like the station. So we, we, we made a plan back in 2010. We set aside money. We were able to start using the money this year and the economy has flipped around so the money that we have, isn’t going to build the station that the Chief wants. Size wise, you know, for staff and for operations to live in and technology wise to have all the, you know, the upgraded technology, and so there’s very limited negotiation with the Chief. Even with the City Manager. So, I’ve had ideas to try to say, well maybe we can eliminate some of this stuff, come in under budget and get the station that we need. So, I see a little bit of issue there. There was some stuff we had renovation money and I was working on renovating the station, I thought we could have taken the money and just made Station 1 completely livable, but the Chief wanted to leave things out so that we could continue to convince outsiders that there was more of a need to get a brand new station. And we ended up giving back over $100,000 that we could have used to continue the renovation, make it a more livable station for the employees. VLS: And when you say you gave $100,000 back, explain for me how that happens? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: So when we do our budget, we requested money for renovations and we had $150,000 that year. VLS: What year was that? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I’m sorry, I don’t know for sure. It was either ‘11 or ‘12, I would say. And the City Manager knew that we needed to make some renovations. He had walked through the building and we did some renovations. We put a new kitchen in, we put new tile in, and we put new windows in. But then we had $100,000 and I wanted to continue to fix it, but the Chief thought it would be a better idea not to fix it. VLS: And how did he communicate that you? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: You know, don’t fix the bathrooms because when people look at it they want to see it’s a shithole. VLS: And those were, I mean, is that essentially a quote? - 15 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: That’s pretty much it, yeah. VLS: And did, were those conversations just with you or were there other people present when he made those types of comments? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I know he said it to other people but that was with me. Like I said, I was kind of the lead on trying to get a lot of this done and I would work, I would work with my guys. I may have those shift guys that work for me, I use them as assistance to get stuff done that I can’t always get done. So if I’m working on a renovation, I would have Haverkate, who is very knowledgeable on the construction business, give me an idea, get some contractors, let’s figure out what it’s going to take to renovate the kitchen. Or how much is it, you know, going to cost us to do new tile? These are the things the Chief wants, so. So I would convey some of that, you know. When it was time to, you know, let’s fix the bathrooms because there’s mold and it’s leaking and I’d have to say, Chief doesn’t want to fix the bathrooms. And so, yeah, I mean, I relayed that. VLS: Did you actually get estimates and quotes for fixing the bathrooms? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: No, no. VLS: And that’s because the Chief told you he didn’t want to fix those things? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. VLS: And when – was that a single conversation with him or did it occur on more than one occasion? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: More than one occasion. VLS: And this would have been back in the 2011, 2012 timeframe? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I believe so. I think I got this kind of warp with time though. I could be wrong on the dates so try not to hold me directly to those dates. VLS: And when was the – when you said you gave back $100,000, that’s what I don’t understand how that takes place? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: So, if we don’t spend the money in the fiscal year, the City – we have the option to roll some of it over and use it the next fiscal year. But we had rolled it a couple years and the City Manager decided I don’t want to go back to Council and ask them to roll the $100,000 again that you have here because they’re going to ask why we’re not using it. So the City didn’t roll the money forward and it went back into the general fund. It actually might not have been the general fund, it might have been the capital improvement funds. VLS: And that would have been in calendar year? - 16 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I’m guessing around the beginning of fiscal year ’13. VLS: Did you have discussions with City staff directly about your concerns that it wasn’t, the funds were not being used to fix the primary problems? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Not with staff. Manager, other departments? You mean, you’re talking like City VLS: Yes. Exactly. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: No. VLS: Did you express your opinions to the Chief that you felt, that the money should be spent on some particular items? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I never came out and said I disagree with you, but I kept bringing it up thinking that maybe he would reconsider. VLS: And what is the status of Station 1 presently in terms of budgetary items and plans? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: So we have, we hired an architect to give us some designs and give us some options on how to move forward with the building of a new station there. The initial architectural design came in almost $3 million over budget and so we had them scale it down and they came back with four or five ideas that still were anywhere from $1.5 million over and up. And then the last time they went back and they another five different options, some eliminating the headquarters’ portion, and just rebuilding the station on its current ground and those were – that one actually came in under budget, which is, seems like the logical one to proceed with to me and we had the money set aside. But, I think the Chief is going to hold off at this point and then try to go back and try to get some more money from a new Council that will be elected in March. So, I, I’m kind of just doing what I’m told with this. So, I’m involved, deeply involved. I have all the plans. I talk with the Project Manager. VLS: Who is the Project Manager? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Ronnie Joel. He is also the Project Manager for our renovation up at Station 2 and I actually spoke with him today on a couple occasions. VLS: What department is he out of? department? I mean, he’s not a member of the fire BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: No, no, no. He, I think he’s, I think he’s a selfcontractor for the City and he works as Project Manager for the bigger projects. He worked on the pier, the pier project. I think he’s working on the project with streets for the Central Avenue repaving. VLS: What company is he with? - 17 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Fieldstone. VLS: And that would be like a contractor? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He is an engineer I think. VLS: Do you know what architect did the fire department or City work with at - ? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Architectural Design Group. VLS: And who selected? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: There was a selection committee. VLS: Did you serve on the selection committee? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I did. VLS: Was the Chief on the selection committee? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. VLS: And was it the, was that the company that the selection committee recommended? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It was. VLS: You have no personal problem with the architect that was selected? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: None at all. professional. Very helpful. They seem to be very good, very VLS: And when, so the architect was working on different options from what time period? When did the architect first start begin to submit plans? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I want to say in February or March we selected the committee and they probably started working on plans throughout the summer. So we’ve had them a couple of times. And, the most recent set of plans, I think, we got in late October, mid-October. VLS: Of 2015? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes, this year. All this year. That one in October had all the plans that they had worked on. VLS: Who has access to – let me ask you this. Your, were you involved in responding or providing information to PSSI that came in in 2015? - 18 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Sure. I had a limited role in the conversations with the personnel on that. I assumed when they were going to be here that I would talking to them a lot, you know. But, I met with one of their Chiefs and we talked strictly about special operations that I am the team manager for all the special operations teams, and so I spoke with him for about an hour on that. And a couple of times he would call to try to get a little more information that he either didn’t have or didn’t take good notes on. VLS: Do you remember who it was from PSSI that you met with? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Why is my brain doing this? I do, I do remember, Chief Cummings. VLS: Did you talk to anyone else with PSSI? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Not during the process of gathering information. Actually, there was one call form another Chief that actually did the presentation. I talked to him for like five minutes telling him I was off duty and I could call him tomorrow when I was on duty and get him what information then he told me to forget it, so. VLS: Do you know whether PSSI was furnished with any of the architectural information related to Station 1? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Not that I’m aware of. The Chief did a lot of that through a Dropbox. So I’m, I’m, I’m not familiar with anything. I never gave him anything on Station 1 and they never asked me anything. VLS: Do you know whether they talked any member of the fire department about the needs at Station 1? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I, I don’t, I didn’t witness and I can’t say firsthand that I saw them. I know they talked about Station 1 in the report a little bit so I know they must have either saw it on their own or talked with some of the members of operations out in the field about it, so. VLS: Have you read the PSSI report? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I’ve read most of it. It’s pretty, pretty thick report, so. Definitely gone through all of the objectives and all the things that. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yeah. VLS: Do you have reason to believe that PSSI was not provided adequate information to complete the scope of work that they were assigned? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I have no reason to believe that. - 19 - VLS: In the, to the extent that you’ve reviewed the objectives in the report, were there things that you disagreed with? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. VLS: And without pulling out the report itself, what were the highlights of the areas of disagreement? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Generalizing, they just made some errors on things that we currently have in place, such as annual hose testing, annual pump testing. Things that they said we didn’t have that we currently do annually and have done for many, many, many years. So, they just made a mistake on some of the things. VLS: Do you know whether the fire department or City staff submitted proposed corrections to the report? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: You know I hate to say they made a mistake. Maybe it was more they didn’t get that information. So, as to your question, yes. The Chief had a document. He sent it to us and asked us to add in as much as needed and there were things in that report that I added a couple in that I thought should have been there. I think my additions were about health and safety committee. You know, we should have a health and safety committee and I oversee some of these guys, so we do have a health and safety committee. VLS: Anything from a – well. That’s not a good question. So, in terms of outside companies that have evaluated Fire Station 1, I guess the architect wouldn’t necessarily have evaluated. It would have just been to prepare plans for a new one? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. VLS: Do you know of any outside organization or inside facilities review process that has looked at Station 1? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I think the name of the company was A.D. Edwards. I could be wrong. This is part of Chief Bruener’s envelope of responsibilities. I know he met with, the City had a company that came out and evaluated all the City buildings and Tim met with the engineers from, like I said, I believe it’s A.D. Edwards, and they went to all the stations and made recommendations and wrote a very thorough report on it, so. VLS: And did you feel that they, to the extent you know, that they were given full access and accurate information on the condition of the station? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I believe so, yeah. VLS: So you’re not aware of the Chief, in any way, interfering with that evaluation or providing misleading information? - 20 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Well, I know he sat down with Community Services. I was in a meeting with him and the owner of the company and told them they wanted the station bulldozed. You know, it needs to be bulldozed, a couple of times, you know, so. I don’t think he’s wrong. It probably does need to be bulldozed. It needs a lot of work and it wasn’t built very well when they did it. VLS: So, you didn’t necessarily disagree with that statement? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I didn’t disagree with it, no. Couldn’t we have used a little monies to make it better? We could have. VLS: Did the Chief ever say to you or did you ever hear him say to anybody else that if you fix some of the major issues, we’re never going to get a new fire station? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: That was the gist of the conversation about not fixing the showers or the bathrooms, yeah. VLS: And who – and that was a comment that he made to you on more than one occasion? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Uh huh. VLS: Are you aware of him making such a comment to anyone else? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I’m not personally aware of it. I don’t think he was hiding the fact that he, that that was his belief, no. VLS: Is there anything that he’s ever put in writing, and by writing I mean very broadly based, e-mails, texts, anything to that effect that would document that he made that type of statement? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Not that I recall. Most of the stuff, most of the activities that we do are usually verbal. He’ll stick his head in the office and say do this, this, and this. You know, some stuff comes out in memorandum form, but it’s sporadic. VLS: I think you also mentioned as we were going through the first point in the Union’s letter, the apparatus and that the Chief had, may have misled or given a misimpression of need with regard to apparatus? Is there any, I mean – well, let me start this way because I don’t want put words in your mouth. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yeah, cause I don’t [illegible]. VLS: I certainly don’t, I certainly don’t want to say that. Let’s put it this way. The letter, point #1 on the letter, is that the Chief has misled the community and City staff. In particular, he created the misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus. Do you agree with that statement? - 21 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: There’s, there’s, there’s one thing that I know that bothered me was we were, we had just built Rescue 2 which is a new apparatus. We needed that apparatus. It needed to be replaced. And, Council said well why don’t we, why don’t we have one in Station 1. And they kind of opened the door for us to purchase a new one. And, the Chief really didn’t tell them that, you know, we’re going to have this apparatus. It’s going to be brand new and it’s not going to be able to move cause we don’t have people to put on it. VLS: What type of apparatus is this? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It’s a rescue vehicle, smaller. response vehicle. They call it a quick VLS: So it gets the acronym “QRC?” BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Uh huh. And we use them as rescue vehicles. We put our medical stuff on there and we run all the rescues. I just felt like when he was at Council and I was watching it, that he should have been honest, and said, listen, it would be great to have but we really don’t need it. You know, I just think now we got a $250,000 vehicle, we’re working on outfitting and doing all this stuff, and we’re not really going to have people to put on it. VLS: And when – were you present at that Council meeting or was it something that ? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I was watching it. VLS: Watching it on? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: The office, on the computer, yeah. VLS: And do you recall what meeting that was where they QRV came up? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I don’t, no, I’m sorry. VLS: Can you place it – was it a regular City Council meeting? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I think it was a regular City Council meeting or possibly a workshop and it probably was around budget time because we were talking about Rescue 2 at that time, so. VLS: So, if it was around budget time, that would have – give me the outside timeframe? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: May, June, July. VLS: Of 2015? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: No, 2014. - 22 - VLS: And so was that something that was in the budget? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: No. We, we really didn’t have our eye on a second rescue vehicle. We have a vehicle replacement program where we try to use our apparatus for 10 to 12 years depending on recommendations from the Shop and then we, we get them the capital improvement five year program so Council can see those big items moving up until they hit their year and so this one really wasn’t on the radar at all. We didn’t have, we weren’t replacing anything. VLS: And how did it come up in Council meeting, the second QRV for Station 1. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: To my best recollection, we were talking about the quick response vehicle which, you know, it was explained to them that they are smaller vehicles that are used to run the rescues. Very common complaint from the citizens is why do you have this big fire apparatus in my, front of my house at, you know, at midnight when I have a – I fell down and skinned my knee, or whatever. And, we, our solution was to make our busiest unit a smaller, quicker, easier to maneuver through the small streets type vehicle and it’s not this giant engine that everybody doesn’t like to see. So, we were on that discussion and I believe one of the Councilman said, well why don’t we have one downtown. Many years ago, we did have the Rescue 1 and it was essentially taken out of service I’m going to say around 2000. I’m totally guessing at that. And, the personnel were absorbed into a SWAT program that we worked with Collier County EMS. One of our guys got on their truck, one of their guys got on our truck, so we took that personnel and did the swap. VLS: So at that particular Council meeting when the Councilmember brought up why not another QRV, was it approved at that very meeting? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I don’t recall. I don’t think so. VLS: Alright. And what about, and you may have told me this, but I want to understand what about what did the Chief say or not say that you believe was a misrepresentation or creating a misimpression? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Well, he – it’s just such a tough couple of words there. I just feel like he could have been more upfront with them and just stay, listen, you know, the truck would probably be nice. If I had a couple more guys to put on this truck, we could spend the $250,000 and it would be great for the people of the south end of the City, but maybe we shouldn’t spend the money right now because we don’t have the personnel to staff it. VLS: And so has that vehicle – I’m sorry, I cut you off. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: No, no. I mean he did say that we would staff it by moving people back and forth from the Engine Company to the Rescue Company so he did let them know there was a possibility of staffing it this way. It just seems, from an operational standpoint, that I have to manage this and make it work, it seems like it’s never going to work right. You’re never going to have these guys grabbing all the gear - 23 - and then running to another truck and it just doesn’t seem like a program that could work right. And, if you say it to a layman, they might say, hey, it sounds good. But to someone that does it every day and knows that it’s going to be difficult, it doesn’t work well. VLS: The quick response vehicle was purchased? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It was. We just picked it up. VLS: When? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: A month ago, three weeks ago. VLS: And how is it working out? Is it being used? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It’s not being used. It’s sitting at admin right now, but we haven’t put equipment on it. We bought a lot of equipment and so it’s not even – VLS: It’s not even ready to be used? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It’s not even ready for use. No. We had no place to put it. We have no bays open. We have no parking availability. It’s – we’re going to have find a way to expand some parking or build something that will shelter this unit. VLS: Do you know if the issue of the QRV or your concerns whether anybody voiced those concerns to City Management or to Council? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: No. VLS: You don’t think they did? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I don’t think so. It’s a difficult position for me and I think the other Battalion Chiefs to go into Mr. Moss’ office and say I don’t think the Chief is doing the right thing, you know. VLS: Understood. Do you know anything about a new Battalion Chief truck? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Sure. VLS: Has there been a new Chief, Battalion Chief truck? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It’s in the, it’s in the budget for this year. VLS: So that budget will – it has been approved? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It has been approved. VLS: And were you a part of putting together the numbers for that item? - 24 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes, I was. VLS: Did you agree or support, and those may be two separate things, that line item budget? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I kind of blindly support sometimes, but I don’t agree. I, I, I, our vehicle has not 63,000 miles. VLS: Has what? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: 63,000 miles. It’s still pretty darn good I think. I mean he’s got a plan to move things around which can pretty much justify why, but, I mean, my opinion is that we probably shouldn’t be doing this if we – we probably don’t need it yet. We could probably get quite a few more years on this vehicle. VLS: Did this item, the new Battalion Chief truck, you’re replacing an existing vehicle? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. VLS: Do you know whether that existing vehicle was evaluated through the Fleet Management Program? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. Yes it was. VLS: And how does that evaluation take place? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Don’t hold me to the name, but I think they have a program that’s called Faster and they plug in all the information, mileage, things like that, amount of money spent on it and there’s a curve where the money and repairs go past its life and then the Shop will give us a recommendation saying this vehicle probably should be replaced. VLS: Do you know whether the new Battalion Chief truck went through that Fleet Management Faster Program? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: All of our vehicles are in that program. So that’s how they make a recommendation for [illegible]. But part of the Chief’s plan takes that truck and moves it into a different position and then gets us a new truck that’s an Expedition or a, more of an SUV. Right now we have a pick-up that pretty much everybody owns. All the Battalion Chiefs in the county have a pick-up with a top [illegible] and we have a command post in the back and so we would be changing a little bit from that design. But, I think that’s what the Chief had in Ft. Lauderdale. I think he had a Suburban or something. So, he kind of wants to reproduce that look here, which again is his prerogative, you know. VLS: So where under the current budget plan is that former Battalion Chief truck? How is it going to be utilized? - 25 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: They’re going to move it into Prevention and it will be a tow vehicle for the Child Safety House and I guess whatever trailers they pull around. VLS: Did you express any opinions to the Chief about the Battalion Chief truck during the budgetary, preparing the budget? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: We talked about it a little bit. Every time he rides in the truck he tells me how he hates the damn thing, you know. I tell him it’s not too bad, it’s a truck, you know. It serves a purpose. VLS: Who uses the Battalion Chief truck? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: The three Battalion Chiefs. VLS: And does the Chief, himself, use the Battalion Chief truck? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Never. But I know the three of us like the truck. It’s good, you know. I don’t know how that factors in, but again, we do what we’re told. If the Chief wants us to put us in an SUV, we’ll drive an SUV, you know. VLS: Were you involved in the budget process related to the replacement of the fireboat? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I mean I was involved in the budget process, yes. VLS: And when was the new fireboat purchased? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Last fiscal year, at the end of last fiscal year, I think it was. VLS: Do you believe there were any misleading or that the Chief misled the community, Council or staff with regard to the need for a fireboat or a particular type of fireboat? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: So, I think there’s a need for the fireboat. We probably use it once or twice a month. We do many rescues with it. We’re always out there trying to help someone that’s in trouble somehow. There’s a lot water down here, so there’s definitely a need. The way we went about it though was a nightmare. I mean we initially put this in the budget years before we got it and we asked for a tremendous amount of money and Council basically laughed us out of the room. And, we would try again next year. We put in, I think the first year we put in $600,000 and would have bought us basically a Coast Guard Cutter. And then the next year, I think we cut it and put in $500,000 and they laughed us out of the room again and said, you know. It got to be a joke. Like if I showed up a, you know, a meeting for people in budget, they’re like you’re not getting your boat. But, it was a little bit of a fiasco trying to get it. And, I actually think we kind of went in the back door or we would have not even gotten the one that we got because the police were trying to get a boat replacement and the City Manager was able to convince Council that, look, let’s give this new boat to the fire - 26 - department, let’s take the engine from their boat, which we had to get a new motor because our motor blew up and give that to the police, they still have a good hull. And so we kind of found a way to get a boat. We definitely need a boat. We’ve needed it for years. We would be going on calls and there would be people flying by us with their old boat. It was terrible. We had a, it was a hand-me-down boat that the police had taken out of service. And so we cleaned it and, you know, did everything we could but it was kind of wore a lot so we really couldn’t be very effective in it. VLS: Do you think that the Chief, in particular, created a misimpression of need as is alleged in the Union’s letter? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It’s kind of tough to like zero in on your question because he, I think he knew we needed a fireboat and we all know we needed a fire boat. I think the way he was selling the need for the fireboat might have been the, you know, misleading part. You know, saying that we could, you know, there’s lack of water supply in certain areas and we could use the fireboat as a water supply. It’s just not a realistic scenario to tell someone. VLS: Was that something that he was representing to Council? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. VLS: And you’re saying that isn’t realistic? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Not at all. VLS: Why? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Well we have a very, we have a good hydrant system, although the water in the south end gets light and there’s not enough water at times. But, to provide a fireboat that can pump 500 gallons a minute, we would have to take our people from fighting the fire, send them to the fireboat, have them drive the fireboat to the fire and then somehow establish some kind of water supply that goes back to our engine that’s on land and use the 500 gallons a minute, which is not very much when it comes to fighting the fire. By the time they got back to the fire, probably the house would be burned down. So it’s just not a realistic – I think again, it’s one of those things that you could maybe tell a lay person and they might say, hey, that’s a great idea. But it doesn’t really work well. Maybe if the boat was staffed 24/7, we had people on it that could jump on the boat and drive directly to the fire, like the big cities, like New York or something like that, you know. VLS: Was this, was there anything that was submitted in writing about that lack of water supply and, or is this, are you, when you say that he represented to Council about the lack of water supply, was that something, was there a document, or was that something that you saw from watching the Council meetings? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I saw it on Council but I imagine there was some kind of paperwork put together to back up that argument that he used in Council, yeah. I - 27 - think he, I think he may have used the same argument when ISO came too to try to have the ISO add in their report that a fireboat might increase the ISO rating too, so. VLS: Let’s go to – well why don’t we take a break. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Okay. VLS: How does that sound? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Sounds good, I could use a bottle of water. VLS: It’s about 1:30. I’m going to turn off the recorder and please make sure that I, it’s not your job to make sure I do my job, but the one thing I don’t want to do is forget to turn it back on. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Okay. VLS: Okay, we’re off. VLS: It is about 1:40 and I’m continuing with my interview of Mr. DiMaria. Got it right didn’t I? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes you did. VLS: And so we’re back on the record. We took a break and we were starting to talk, you mentioned ISO. And I’ve started to learn a little bit about ISO from these interviews. That’s the Insurance Services Organization? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes it is. VLS: And they are an agency that, an independent agency that rates fire departments that effect premium rates, is that, I mean it can affect homeowner’s rates? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Sure, because they give each department a number, 1 being the best, 10 being the worst and they have direct reflection on the homeowner’s insurance that you and I buy for our homes. VLS: How often does ISO rate a department? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: They usually come in somewhere between 5 to 7 years and re-evaluate the previous rating. We had gone much longer, probably closer to 17 or 18 years without a rating. VLS: Were you – when was the most recent rating process? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: And I told you I have to think what time, but I’m going to say it be like 2009, maybe 2010, in that area. - 28 - VLS: So that would have been the only one that would be, had been done, under the current Chief? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. The one previous I was an Engineer back in the early 90s, so. VLS: And were you involved in the previous, as a Driver Engineer, did you have anything to do with the previous? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Very limited. Very limited. I do recall us like adding equipment to trucks and stuff like that to try to get the best rating we could possibly get. VLS: And when you say adding equipment to – let me start. Did you meet with the ISO evaluator in the one that was done when you were a Driver Engineer? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: No, but I do recall the supervisors at that time saying our engines should have, I’m going to just make an example, a gated Y on it. If, you know, we have all this, they give you – I guess you get a list of everything you need on your engines and so we compared that to what we carried and we said well, if we had the gated Y and this, and this, and this, our rating would be improved so we need to get these items. So I recall going out and getting the items and putting them on our trucks. Like they gave me a gated Y and I went [illegible]. VLS: Where did you get the equipment to? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I would guess that they generated a purchase order and we bought them from a vendor that sells that equipment. VLS: Was it, did you borrow equipment from other departments for the ISO process? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I don’t recall borrowing anything back in the 90s? VLS: Uh huh. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: No, I don’t recall borrowing anything, no. VLS: And what about staffing. Was that something – did you know in advance they were going to do the ISO rating? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I think they give you a notice. VLS: And do you know whether the fire department did anything in particular to make sure that the staffing was, would meet the ISO or make the ISO rating higher? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: At the time I don’t think I was very astute to what was going on staffing wise and the management of the fire department at that time. I was pretty content driving my engine down the road, so I don’t know about that part. - 29 - VLS: Were you involved at all with the ISO evaluation, the most recent one that occurred under Chief McInerny? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. VLS: What was your role with respect to the ISO evaluation? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I met with the person doing the evaluation was, name was Mike Morash. And, Ocala had a fire chiefs’ convention. I met with the Chief and him and we discussed potential issues that the City might have and discussed the upcoming rating. We also had to supply ISO with a lot of different documentation at brass(?) inventories and things of that nature. VLS: Was that something that you were assigned some special tasks as opposed to other Battalion Chiefs? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Right. that. We all were assigned some tasks to handle VLS: Do you know when ISO informed the department that they were going to do an evaluation? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I don’t know the date, no. VLS: So you were present in Ocala with the Chief and Mike Morash? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Daytona, but yes. VLS: Oh, Daytona. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. VLS: I didn’t hear you right. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I might have said Ocala. VLS: What potential issues were discussed at that meeting? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: The big one was water supply, weak hydrant system, staffing and the fireboat. VLS: So, were these things that the Chief brought up or how did it come about that those items were discussed in Daytona? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: The Chief was pointing out our weaknesses, lack of water supply, not enough staffing. Things like that. VLS: Had Morash asked for that information? weaknesses? - 30 - I mean, did he ask about potential BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Not at that time. VLS: What was your, what was your, what was the City’s ISO rating coming into the new evaluation? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: We were ISO-2. VLS: Do you believe that the Chief misrepresented any weaknesses in that first meeting in Daytona? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: No. I think he pointed, he pointed them out. I, I don’t know if, I mean, I know they are going to come in and do their evaluations, so I don’t know that, like pointing out the weaknesses would have been high on my list to do. I think I would have gone a different route and tried to point out our strengths. You know, to try to maintain, to maintain our ISO rating. VLS: Did he point out any strengths? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Not that I recall. It’s mostly a, you know. He had a discussion with me at one point because I live in the City of Naples too. So, he had a discussion that if we could somehow get a 5 for a rating, the City would have to give us more staffing, and have to give us a fireboat, so they could keep their 2 and keep the premiums down. And I said, that’s my premiums. I said I am not crazy about this. VLS: When did that conversation take place? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It happened prior to the rating. VLS: And did you think that the Chief was just joking around or do you think he was serious in making that comment? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I thought he was serious. And I would never sit here and say that I don’t think we need some extra staffing or we never needed a fireboat. We did. It’s just, you know, at what cost do we do that, you know. VLS: So what documentation were you asked to supply to ISO? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I don’t have a list right now, but I know a lot of it had to do with the apparatus. I actually went down the list of what ISO was looking for on apparatus and made some purchases to make sure that we had things in place that we needed to get, you know, to get the most out of our score in that category, so. VLS: And, do you feel that accurate documentation was provided to ISO? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I believe so. VLS: And what rating did the City get? - 31 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: We started with a 3 and then we were able to make some more improvements over the next year and got it back to the 2. VLS: Alright, let’s go back to the letter with the Union dated October 21, 2015. And let’s go to the next point in, enumerated point in the Union’s letter which is that: The Department’s integrity is in question due to Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with regard to fire calls, damage, and intensity. I realize that that is not your allegation, but do you believe, let’s break it down. Do you believe that the Chief has made misrepresentations or exaggerations with respect to fire calls? And if you can’t say yes or no, if you want to offer any observations on fire calls? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Early on when the Chief got here, he explained to us that we were not coding our NFIRS reports correctly and had us recode or change the way we coded future calls relative to electrical hazards to structure fires. VLS: Was that the primary area in which he expressed his opinion that the coding was not being completed correctly? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. That was the primary area. VLS: Have you had any training on coding under NFIRS? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yeah, I mean in-house training, yes. But we’ve all been trained to a certain degree to know what incidents should be coded at depending on what we find. VLS: Who does that training? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: At the time I received it was a Battalion Chief Matt Reed. VLS: Alright. And to whom did the Chief state that the fire department was not correctly coding reports and state that you needed to change the way you code electrical hazards? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I can’t say for certain, but I know I was, I was in the office and off duty. I was in my civilian clothes and I remember standing like in the door and he was pointing at the light switch and saying if that light switch arcs and it creates a brown mark on the plate, then it was fire and there was smoke so it should be a fire. VLS: Do you know who, who else did he do you know that he told that the coding, in his opinion, that the coding of fire, of electrical hazards was incorrect? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I think it was common knowledge. I think he told everyone. He told, I mean, he told us and I had to tell the guys that were doing the reports that we don’t do it this way anymore, we do it this way now. This is the Chief’s interpretation of this and this is how we’re going to do all of them. If we had an a/c motor that burned a belt, and there was smoke and there was a little bit of heat that - 32 - caused, you know, heat marks or, it was, that was a fire. We had lightning strike a boat and the Captain got burns on his hands. We ran the call and the change – it was lightning strike and he had me change the lightning strike to a boat fire. So it was a curve for us to get it the way he wanted it. To me it didn’t sit well because, and I pointed out, why we didn’t first have these other codes for these other items if we weren’t to use them for exactly what they were. VLS: And, but you, following the chain of command did pass down the information to your staff and your lieutenants BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I certainly did. VLS: That the coding system was going to change? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I certainly did, yeah. That’s my job. VLS: Yes. And you disagreed or you disagree with the change in the coding? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I still disagree with it, yes. I know on certain calls I would be on and I would, the guys would look at me and I was like, we have no choice. Make it a fire. VLS: And who is, is there an authority on how NFIRS codes are to be interpreted and applied? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I believe the State of Florida has, comes from the State Fire Marshall’s office. VLS: So for instance if I was trying to determine whether codes were being properly interpreted, the ultimate determiner would be the Fire Marshall’s office? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I believe there’s a, there’s a book that comes with the NFIRS and, you know, you can read exactly what it says. If there’s this, this and this, then it should be this, you know. So there’s a book that, that assists you. VLS: And you believe that the book would support your interpretation of how to properly code an electrical? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I believe so, yeah. I, I, I, you know, there might, you might be able to read into it enough to say that you would support the way the Chief thinks as well. VLS: But you did express to the Chief, at least on one occasion that you disagreed with that interpretation? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Uh huh. - 33 - VLS: Did the Chief ever tell you, other than saying that this was his interpretation, did he ever tell you why? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He said that’s his, right out of the book. He said he read it right out of the book and that’s how it should be. And, I think if you read the book on fires, it would say if there was heat and there was smoke and it caused some damage, it’s a structure fire. So, you know, is his interpretation 100% right? Probably not. Could you kind of make it work? Probably. But I know he was asked numerous times why, why we’ve had such an increase in front of Council and I think Councilman Finlay – and me and Mike were in the office and I was watching, again the Council meeting, and I looked over at Mike and I was like, Councilman Finlay is on to him, you know, cause he was kind of zeroing in on well there are not as many electrical and there’s so many more, you know. But he couldn’t quite put his finger on it and, you know, we just kind of sat there and shrugged our shoulders, like we were kind of helpless not to, you know, to bring out the point. VLS: How did the Chief respond to that? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He said that he has no idea why there’s so many more fires and he actually said, ask the Battalion Chiefs, they’ll verify there haven’t been this many fires, which, the reason I remember the comment was that Mike and I both looked at each other and were like, hope they don’t ask us. VLS: You said ask the Battalion Chiefs? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: They’ll verify that they have never seen anything like this. VLS: And when did this – do you have any idea when this came? Was this a regular Council meeting or a workshop? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I couldn’t tell you for sure. VLS: Do you remember what – BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I watched them all, you know, so they all kind of blend together. VLS: Was it in 2015, 2014? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I could probably look because Councilman Finlay did a public records request and if I research the time of that public records request, it would probably get me close to the time, so I would be glad to let you know the time. VLS: Would you do that? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Uh huh. - 34 - VLS: Another part of point two in the letter is that the Chief misrepresented and exaggerated with respect to damage. Do you, I know you didn’t write that point, but do you know what is being referred to as far as damage? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Well, in, in, in every NFIRS report there is a line that gives us the ability to write a pre-value of a structure and the structure’s contents. And then a loss of what happened to the structure. For example, if we went to a house that we pre-valued at $100,000 and they lost $50,000 or half of their house, we could list that there was a $50,000 loss and we would estimate this. They’re just complete estimates. And, we’ve done this for years and years and years. We fill out the report to the best that we could for the estimate. I know I would find myself looking on the tax collector’s value to pre-value a home. And then try to estimate the amount of damage that was done in a fire. Now, we don’t have a huge amount of fire, but when they happen, that’s how we would do it. So there were certain times that the Chief increased losses and there were a few times that we actually decreased losses. The last time he came to me with three or four pages. We were going through pretty much all the fire calls the last ten months or so. He had me both increase and decrease maybe twenty, twenty calls. I think I looked at the net change was over a million dollars up though. VLS: And when did – well first of all, let me understand how these reports are done. The coding as to the nature of a fire, the NFIRS coding, that is done initially by whom? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: The, usually done by the officer that was on there. And if his driver or one of his subordinates do it, he has to sign as the Member in Charge underneath which means he has reviewed that report and agrees with the information that’s in there. VLS: And then where does it go from there? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: So it’s part of a document within our ImageTrend. The Battalion Chief will spot check reports and we always check fire reports. I don’t think we have the ability to check every single report, but if there’s a structure fire or a car fire, we always check it and we usually comment because we go to it so we’ll have to add our own comments to what we did. VLS: And that’s something that you put into the ImageTrend system? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: ImageTrend system, yeah. VLS: And it would show that that comment was your comment? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: That’s correct. VLS: And are you able as Battalion Chief when reviewing those reports to change anything that the reporting officer put in? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. I’m have administrator rights and I can change anything that’s in there. - 35 - VLS: And would the system, the ImageTrend, capture the fact that a change was made and when it was made? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It leaves an audit trail. VLS: There is an audit trail? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It will show that I’m in. Yeah. In audit trail it says it was put in on this date and this date it was audited by Pete DiMaria, you know. So would you see the audit trail that went on with that, for sure. VLS: And what happens after the Battalion Chief reviews, adds any comments or makes any changes? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: So those reports are quarterly checked by our CAD team. Rescue and medical reports are done for quality assurance. Fire reports are checked for accuracy. And then the reports are all approved and sent to the State of Florida. VLS: And who is in charge? Who is charge of that quarterly checking the CAD teams? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Mike Nichols is in charge of ImageTrend, the reports, and he has three personnel that work for him that get an annual – a little bit of extra money for doing the extra work and they do a lot of the quality assurance and accuracy checks. Every month we’ll get a note from one of the three of them that says these are the corrections that needs to be made on your reports. We found this was incorrect, that was incorrect, you know, and we’ll go back, we’ll send them out to the personnel that did the report with the advice that’s coming from the person doing the checking and they’ll get corrected. And that’s usually before they are released to the State. VLS: And who are those three personnel under Mike Nichols? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Lt. Howard, Engineer Kofsky, and firefighter Murphy. VLS: And again, do you believe that any corrections that they suggest, that would be a part of the audit trail? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: If they go in and check a report and they open the report it would definitely show that they were in there. VLS: And who has – would Mike Nichols, Battalion Chief Mike Nichols be the person that would be able to produce an audit trail? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: An audit trail, yes, yes. VLS: During that process, is there a particular point in the process where you would expect the Chief to be involved in reviewing the reports? - 36 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Not historically. The Chief doesn’t get involved in the checking of the reports. I think that on major calls that he’s probably come in to add his comments on what he’s done on the scene, possibly review some of the stuff that’s in there, like we talked about, the damages, the loss and all that. There’s another part of it which is the investigation of the fire which goes to the Fire Marshall, so he’s got to put his investigative report in there so once we’re done with operations, it’s not locked until the Fire Marshall gets in and finishes the investigation strictly on actual structure fires. Medical calls, once we’re done with it or fire alarms, and the vast majority of our calls, once we’re done with it, we’re done. So it would only be the small amount of fires that the Chief would probably get involved in and start looking at. VLS: Now would he, do you know whether his comments or changes if he made them would be in the audit trail? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I don’t believe they would be. Cause, and the reason I say that is because he’s possibly looked at the call but not unlocked it to look to make the changes. It seems like when he needed changes, he would get me or one of the other guys to make those changes. VLS: And have you been instructed by the Chief to make changes in reports? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. VLS: Under previous administrations, have you been instructed to make changes in reports by the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Not by the Chief. If there were errors like I spoke about, this CAD team would find errors. Those are always corrected before we sent them, but not going back in and making changes to estimations on damage and stuff so. VLS: Is it – during the process of – let’s go to the damage part of it as opposed to the coding. It would be the person that initially. Let me start all over again. The damage values initially inserted on the fire reports would come from the team responding and then would be checked by you as Battalion Chief? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: That’s correct. And normally, if we were at a fire and there’s damage, it would be more of a consensus to value. So, the lieutenant would call me and I would maybe talk to one of the other lieutenants that were at the fire and we would say what, you know, what are you guys thinking as far as estimates and damage? Where are we at with this? How much did we lose? How much water did we fill up the house with? All these things that factor in and then we would come up with a fair estimate. We know that insurance companies look at those estimates so it’s important to the community that they’re fairly accurate. But, we always say, you know, we’re fireman. We’re not at all in the construction field so we’re going to do our best, but there’s a possibility that it could be more, it could be less, but this is our estimate of what we did on that day, so. - 37 - VLS: And would you ever get information post call that would cause you to reevaluate those values? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I normally wouldn’t, but I do recall sometimes when the Fire Marshall would get some information from, you know, a contractor on scene or something saying wow, this is five million dollars damage and maybe we had it at three. And so that, they might make a change on that. VLS: Who would make the change? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: In previous administrations, it would have been the Fire Marshall. When he did his investigation, he would adjust the value. VLS: So he has access to? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He does. But, you know, our Fire Marshall is relatively new in his position so he hasn’t had a lot of experience with ImageTrend, so I think that’s why a lot of the time, it’s been coming to us to make those changes. VLS: And coming to you from where? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: From the Chief or even the Fire Marshall has come in and asked us to make the change. VLS: You said something about twenty, that recently the Chief had you adjust or change values on about twenty calls. Some were increases and some were decreases in value. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. VLS: Did I get that information correct? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: That’s correct. VLS: When did – that was all at one time? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Uh huh. VLS: When that did that happen? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: September maybe? VLS: Of 2015? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Uh huh. I could be off. VLS: And how did that instruction come to you? Was that a meeting, a one on one? - 38 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: No. I was in my office working and he walked in with three or four pieces of paper in his hand and he had made notes on the paper, you know. And it had a list of the calls, the fire calls we had been on. He asked me to make those changes. That was the time when I changed the lightning strike to a boat fire. VLS: So the changes included in those twenty, changes in the twenty calls, it wasn’t just – BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Values. VLS: Changing damage values, it was also changing coding? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: That one was the only one I changed the coding on. The rest were values. I think I had to put in some, add something into the terminology too on a couple of reports, if I recall correctly. VLS: What do you mean by that? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Each, each, a report will carry a narrative of what our actions were and I don’t recall why I put in there, but I do remember, you know, typing in a change in the language that was put in the narrative from whoever put that call in there. I may still have those documents he had somewhere, but I. VLS: I would ask that if you have those that you make those available to me. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Okay. I have to because when I did it I had to get it to the team because they had released those reports to the State because they were over a year so I know I scanned them and sent them to, I believe, Steve Kofsky. VLS: And were all of the changes made at around the same time? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: They were on the same day. VLS: So the Chief came to you and that same day you made the changes that he requested? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He sat, he sat right next to me while I did it. VLS: Now would that show on ImageTrend? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: If you did an audit trail, I’m sure you would see that I changed reports on that day. VLS: And how – can you give me any reference points that would allow me know or allow someone to know which reports were changed? I mean are there, are there numbers? Is there something that – BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Well, if I had the paper, it would tell me exactly what they were by the NFIRS number, but I would say that it was probably all the fire calls - 39 - that we ran from January to September, you know, again, I’m guessing the day when I did it, for 2015. VLS: Did you have any discussions with the Chief? I mean, did he say anything to you, did you say anything to him about the changes that were requested? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I just did what I was told. VLS: The Chief didn’t tell you why he was doing it? Why he was asking? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: There were a couple that were, that were really big increases and I, and I must have had a look and he said that, similar to what we said before, that these are estimations given from an estimator after the incident was done. VLS: But there was, all of those twenty calls involved your having to communicate, not only make the changes, but also communicate those changes to Steve Kofsky? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. I gave him the list that I had so I knew a lot of them had been released to the State because it went back so far. And then once we release it to the State, we would have to contact them to make the changes in the document that we initially approved and released to them. VLS: And would that have gone to Steve via an e-mail? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. I think I scanned it and then sent it to him. VLS: So I would ask that you look for that and get that to me. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Okay. VLS: The second, also in the second point in the Union’s letter is that they are alleging that the Chief made misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to intensity. How is intensity reflected in records of the fire department? I know you didn’t make and I’m not suggesting that you made that allegation. I’m just trying to understand how that would be reflected. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I don’t, I don’t know if I can say, speak to intensity. I can speak to duration. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He definitely asked us not to say that a fire was out until, [illegible] fire is out, until we were just about done on the scene. And, it goes hand in hand with Mr. Finlay again asking questions about, yeah, you guys had a structure fire, but you were done, he called fire out in ten minutes into it. And he definitely told us to not say the fire was out when the fire was out. I would delay saying it, you know. I just, I did it. - 40 - VLS: And that would, would that have been something that you would have instructed if you weren’t on that particular fire? Did you instruct your personnel, like your lieutenants, that it was – BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I did. VLS: Okay. So you’re saying that this instruction from the Chief came sometime after Finlay raised the question? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Uh huh. VLS: And, can you place in time when that question was raised by Finlay? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It was quite – it was a few years ago. Probably stab at 2011. VLS: Okay. Alright, and that would have been something that was raised in an e-mail, letter or a question at council meeting? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Question at a council meeting. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Possibly an e-mail from the Chief though. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: If I recall correctly, I think Mr. Finlay had done a records request and got a bunch of information on a lot of our calls. And he was looking into the reason we had such an increase in calls, and then from that review of those incidents, he saw that a lot of the fires were done in no time, and actually some of the fires we put out with a garden hose, you know, I, I recall there was a dock fire, and they were building a new dock and it smoldered, and smoldered, and smoldered, and the homeowner late at night noticed his dock is smoldering, and he was out there with a garden hose trying to wet it down, so then he called us, and, um, we responded. It was a smoldering fire, and we pulled up some of the wood that was smoldering and he could not wet it from underneath, so we took the dock apart, and we put it out with a garden hose, and our report actually said that we put it with a garden hose, and that led to the Chief saying that we are not allowed to use a garden hoses anymore because Mr. Finlay was saying they looked, they put it out with a garden hose. It just wasn’t as big of an incident if you put it out with a garden hose, I guess. What he was shooting for. VLS: And you specifically, he specifically instructed you not to use a garden hose when responding? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Every call pull the pre-connect. VLS: Every call. Say that again. - 41 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Every call pull the pre-connect. VLS: What is that? I don’t know what that means. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Okay, so we have a hose that is pre-connected to the pump, so we grab the nozzle and some hose, throw it on our shoulder, the pump operator can just pull and you get water. So they are already hooked into the pump. So hose isn’t. So hose you have to take and hook into the pumps. It’s a little longer process, but the ones that are pre-connected, it’s for quick response. Get the hose on the ground and start putting out the fire. VLS: So when he says every call pull the pre-connect, in other words, use that as opposed to any source that BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Alternative source, yeah. VLS: How was that in instruction by the Chief to delay fire out communicated to you? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Verbally. VLS: It was that in just one-on-one? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I think when he told me initially it was one-on-one, but I know he told all of the Battalion Chiefs. VLS: Okay. And were you told that on more than one occasion? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Couple. VLS: Okay. And what is, is there in your profession, is there a definition or understanding of what fire out means as a command? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yeah, I mean, when the fire is out, then there is no more burning, and we are in the process of the next phase which would be overhauling or salvage getting some of the belongings of the homeowners out of the structure. So the fire is out and we are moving on to the next phase. There is also fire under control and we delayed all these things so the picture plays out, but it is definitely a longer duration than what I was ever used to. In fact, we kind of strived ourself on the ability to be an aggressive interior attack Fire Department, so, but quicker we could get in and the quicker we could get that fire out, the better we are doing in our eyes. If it is taking us longer and there are bigger fires, bigger incidents than, you know, I imagine the Chief’s thought and I don’t want to put thoughts in his head, but I imagined the Chief thought was if they are bigger and takes longer than maybe we can get more personnel. VLS: Okay, but he wasn’t, did you take his instruction to you to mean delay putting the fire out, or delay making the command, relaying the command? - 42 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I would never delay putting the fire out. I delayed, what I did do was delay saying that it was out. We were moving through the rest of the process, the fire was out, and you know we would be picking up hose, and I would say that I better say the fire is out because we are almost ready to leave. You know, so. VLS: Did you ever take the Chief’s instructions to you to be to delay putting the fire out, or did you take those instructions to be a change in when that was, when that command was made over the radio? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Um, when he said that I assumed it was a delay when we said it over the radio. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I don’t, I mean, he has said stuff like, you know, let it burn, don’t be too aggressive, and I mean this is one of the things I wrote for notes because it actually bothered me so much that. VLS: Okay, let’s move on. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Move on and stay on the same subject. VLS: That, let’s move on that point. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Okay. VLS: You have made some, you said that you have made some notes, comments that the Chief made bothered you, tell me what those are? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Like discouraged us from being as aggressive, and I just told you a story when I started here Chief Chesboro gave us this big speech, there were 9 of us that got hired together about how aggressive, we’re small but we are aggressive, and we do the job of the big Departments, and I always took that to heart and I was proud of the Department that we had, but the Chief’s thought was that if, you know, don’t be so aggressive. VLS: How was that communicated to you and when? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He would just verbally say, don’t be so aggressive, you know, don’t get anybody hurt, but don’t be so aggressive. I would never get anyone hurt either being aggressive or going defensive on a fire intentionally, obviously we don’t try to get our own people hurt. It’s a dangerous job, and sometimes people get hurt. I mean, I VLS: Was there a particular time that you can recall that the Chief discouraged you from being aggressive? - 43 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: We, there was a fire in Aqua Land Shores this Summer from a lightning strike. The fire had vented itself through the roof so it was free burning inside the house. I sent my guys inside the building, and we attacked the fire from underneath, from inside of there, and we were able to stop the fire from spreading, and contain the fire. It was a large loss to the property. We used a lot of water to get it done. The fire was burning pretty good if it burnt hot enough to burn through the roof. And after that I was very happy with my personnel. They did an outstanding job, they were super aggressive, and they, when most Departments would have been rehabbing they kept getting bottles and kept going back inside to try to make sure we got the fire out. And, after that he had a talk with me about not being so aggressive. And it really didn’t matter because they were going to have to bulldoze that house anyway. It’s just not in my nature or my culture within this Fire Department not to do that. VLS: Was, did the Chief come to that scene? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He did. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He did, he was there. It’s where he injured his eye. VLS: How did he injury his eye? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He said that he was looking in the door and something got in his eye. VLS: Were there other injuries? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: There was. VLS: Okay. What injuries? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: There was a Firefighter that a piece of ceiling tile fell through, and hit him in the shoulder. Separated his shoulder. And he needed to get some surgery. VLS: Did the Chief indicate that his comment about not being so aggressive related to injuries or BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Well he did say don’t get anybody hurt. VLS: Alright. Do you recall the date of that fire? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I don’t. VLS: And did you feel that he was being critical of your guess it’s BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Tactics. - 44 - VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I didn’t. I didn’t think he was being critical of my tactics at all. I think that they were by the book. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: We would say that it was a good stop. VLS: Okay. Alright. I am not sure that we have finished your comments as it related to that particular point and I am not sure if I can even go back and see what that particular point was, but I think you were saying he discouraged you from being aggressive. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yeah, on numerous occasions he just said, you know, try not to be as aggressive, you know. We need some big fires. VLS: He would say that, we need some big fires? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yeah. I think it’s, I guess, I think it’s appropriate but I think a Firefighter kind of lives for a little bit of action that they get now and then, so to try to get a good fire is something that is probably talked about in the Station houses, you know. Good fire, you know, drop off this day or something not that we would prefer hope bad things for people, you know, we know fires happen. Just one of those things. So, I think VLS: So that type of comment in firehouse parlance wouldn’t be BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Totally VLS: Unusual. People don’t really mean it, but it’s part of the adrenaline BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It’s part of the macho thing we do in the fire service so him saying we need a good fire tonight never I never thought that was inappropriate in any way. You know, firehouse talk, banter, whatever. I never felt that, but just saying don’t let it burn if it is too big, you know, I would hope that my 26 years of experience, I would know, if I am not going to put my guys and good defensive, then that’s what I am going to do because I am the incident commander, that’s what I specialize, that’s how I have gotten where I am at today. So I would know when to be aggressive, and when not to, and I understand what he would say, but maybe I took it the wrong way, or it did bother me. We had a (illegible) come in for a boat fire, smoke coming out the engine, and he said let it sink as I am walking out of the Station, and I mean, I VLS: Did you take that in the same context of we need some big fires, that it was just kind of a BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: See that one. I didn’t. - 45 - VLS: Why? What was different? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Like we hadn’t had a good call in a while and he really, you know, wanted something major. You know, I would never let the boat sink, unless it sank and there was nothing I could do about it. So, it wasn’t like, you know, some of the nights, when he has taken off, and I am still at the office, and because you know, I’m on a 24 hour, and him saying you know get a good fire tonight. I know that is the firehouse banter. But this was a little bit different, it seemed like it was another one of those times that he was not encourage us to do the very best that we could do. I think it would have been better for him to say, you know, get that boat, and get it put out fast. Do what you can do, save the boat. You know, maybe that is just my way of thinking, I don’t know. But. VLS: Was anybody else a witness to that particular conversation? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Mike Nichols was with me. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: We were for some reason we were together in the afternoon, most of been working on a project or something, and I know that I commented because I almost keyed my mike to say that I was responding when he said that, and I stopped really quick, and I looked at Mike and I said I almost keyed my mike when he said let that boat sink. VLS: And can you place that in time? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Maybe October, early October of this year. VLS: Of this year. Okay. Is there any other, have we covered, well you didn’t make the allegations, so, I think we probably covered what you might have information on with regard to the allegation that the Union made in point 2. Can you think of anything else that I should know, understanding that I have been tasked with the mission of trying to BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Not at this point. VLS: Let’s go on to the 3rd point in the Union’s letter. I am kind of out of order. Let’s take another quick break and I will get myself organized. It is probably time for one. We are at 2:35 and I am going to turn off the recorder. VLS: I am turning the microphone back on and it is about 2:45, about. I want to kind of go down a different track. Did the Chief ever make any comment to you or in your presence that you should have a lackluster performance? Have you heard those words before? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I don’t know if I have heard lackluster, but it kind of goes with what I was saying earlier, like maybe not as aggressive performance. - 46 - VLS: Alright. Moving on to the 3rd point in the Union’s letter they say that the Chief’s misrepresentation, exaggerations, and outright mendacity have created a lack of trust between the Chief and City’s fire rescue personnel as a result the Chief has lost the ability to effectively lead the City’s Firefighters. Other than any misrepresentations or exaggerations that you may have referenced in previously in this interview, are you aware of anything else along those lines that has created a lack of trust between the Chief and fire rescue personnel? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I mean, I can’t really speak to how the rest of the guys feel. And obviously I told you I did everything he asked me throughout the years he has been here, and you know I considered him a nice guy, but he, he, you know, he would never have to lie to me, he could tell me whatever he wanted, and he is the Chief and I do what I am told. You know, but what you say is good, but this last thing hiring the Training Chief bothered me because I ultimately found out that he had been lying to me for weeks. He could have just told me what he was doing, and I would not have cared who he hires, you know, it’s his prerogative. I might not have been happy, but why lie to me, you know, I just could, it did not make sense. VLS: Tell me how in what way he lied to you. Tell me what happened? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: So we had gone for a long period without a Training Chief, and he had asked some of our personnel to put in letters of interest, and include their résumé, and we had 4 of our guys that are currently on the job show interest in that position, which I was surprised because a lot of the Shift guys don’t like to go to 40 hour work week, so I thought, you know, it is good that we had some guys that were willing to sacrifice that Shift work to go to a 40 hour work week to try to do the Training Chief’s job. And he evaluated these guys and one of them, 20, almost 24 year employee, Paramedic, long-term Lieutenant, Hazmat tech, knowledgeable guy who is an instructor, and has taught at the Fire Academy, thought he was a strong candidate, and so I went to the Chief and we spoke on numerous occasions about the four guys that had put in and he said well Gerry, the one I said 24 year employee is his number one guy, he should get it, and we had similar conversations like why don’t we just put him in the interim or something so we can cover the job, because it is not getting done. It’s 6 weeks, and I asked him, I can’t remember the date exactly, and he told me the same thing, well, you know, he is getting pushed back from HR, and the people at Solid Waste are upset because we get paid so much, I actually remember Solid Waste picks up the trash, we put out fires, and don’t know different jobs, you know. I don’t know why they would be upset with us, but, um, I guess than later on in the day, I went to Station 2 like I normally do, meet with my guys, and Nadelman told me that he had called Denise and that they had already hired someone two weeks earlier, a week earlier. And I was frustrated. I said you don’t have to lie to me. So I felt that factored into maybe into what they are saying here, I don’t know. But for me, it felt like you know you lied to me, no need. VLS: Okay let’s go. I want to get some more information on this. The position in question was Battalion Chief Training. Is that right? - 47 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Is it VLS: What’s it called? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: The Battalion Chief in charge of Training. VLS: In charge of Training, and that’s different than the other three Battalion Chiefs in terms of it’s a 40 hour week as opposed to shift work. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: That’s one of the differences. The other thing is that this position is basically dictates the training for the Department annually, and puts out schedules monthly, and sometimes develop training programs, and teaches those programs. So a wide list of stuff that falls under that position. Safety and Q&A’s on the patient care reports. We are all under that Battalion Chief. VLS: Who had been the Battalion Chief in that position that left and created the vacancy? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Bill Moyer. VLS: And when was the vacancy created? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I don’t know for sure. I would say probably August, if I roughly guess. I am sure someone here in HR could give us the exact date. VLS: Sure. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I usually don’t talk this much, I’m the more the strong, silent type. VLS: Laughs. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Laughs. VLS: I am making you break that. Break that routine. Have you been, have you seen other changes other people besides Bill Moyer in the position of Training? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Sure. VLS: And typically when there has been a vacancy in that position, how has it been handled? Um, in other words, is it generally posted, did the method the Chief used to get the word out was that different than it had been used in the past? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: So under Chief McInerny, basically he would send out an e-mail and ask if anybody is interested and he would get their Résumés and then he would promote directly from his interest letter. Prior to Chief McInerny, there was a more formal process where HR would post the job, an application for the job would be filled out, a letter of interest would be added to that, you would add your Résumé, you would end up, and if you were selected for the final 3 or 5 you would get in front of an - 48 - interview board of either your peers or chief officers throughout SWFL, and they would make a selection, and the Chief is not bound by the selection, but they would at least rank 1 through 3, 1 through 5, whatever. VLS: Has the Chief followed that more formal process with any other positions that are outside of the bargaining unit? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Outside of the bargaining unit. VLS: I mean, I am assuming that process BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: So that is definitely outside the bargaining unit VLS: Right BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Because it is a non-bargaining position so the more formal process has only been followed for bargaining unit positions. VLS: Oh, okay. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: So if we are promoting someone to a Lieutenant, there is an opening for a Lieutenant, we will go through a formal process. VLS: Is that specified by the collective bargaining agreement, if you know? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: The CBA tells us that every 18 months we need to have a test, and we need to generate this list, and it gives us some broad based criteria. But we usually the Battalion Chiefs make the test to different categories of the test, the point scale, usually submitted to HR so that can post that with a posting for the position and then they do the same thing that we spoke before take applicants, and all the other stuff. VLS: But you are saying that before Chief Inerny that process was also followed for non-bargaining positions? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Correct. Yes. When I promoted, I had to go through the process of filling out an application, and I got interviewed by chief officers from around the County, and I got my promotion that way. VLS: Okay. Are there other positions besides the Training Officer, the Battalion Chief assigned to Training, where it was a non-bargaining unit employee and the Chief used the more informal process? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yeah. this. Every non-bargaining position was done like VLS: Okay, and what other positions since the Chief has come on board, can you think of that there has been a non-bargaining unit? - 49 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: There were actually 3, you know there were 2 promotions prior to Bill Moyer, and the Training Chief’s position that came out of the long-term employees of the City. And there has been the Fire Marshal was promoted under the non-formal, and 2 Battalion Chiefs, and operations. I think 2 Battalion Chiefs. VLS: Using a more formal process. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: All using the informal process. VLS: And who were the Battalion Chiefs that were promoted under the informal process? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Nichols and Bruener. VLS: Were they internal? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: They were internal. VLS: And as far as the Fire Marshal, who was promoted under the more informal process? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Bob Rogers. VLS: Okay. Was he internal? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He was. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He was working as an Inspector prior. VLS: Alright, let’s go to the position at hand. The promotion at hand. Who were the 4 candidates that you believe sent in a letter of interest in connection with this informal process? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Pecar, Lieutenant Lieutenant Zunzunegi, and Engineer Kofsky. Pecar; Lieutenant Adamski, VLS: Okay. Now some of those folks are under your command? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Adamski works for me. VLS: Okay. Did you see the packets that any of those 4 individuals submitted? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I saw Adamski because he copied me. VLS: Did you feel that he was a strong candidate for the position? - 50 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Not as strong as Pecar. Pecar or the Engineer Kofsky. Actually not as strong as VLS: Did the Chief solicit any advice or comment from you about the promotion? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I don’t know whether he solicited but I definitely gave it to him. VLS: And what was your advice/comment? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I told him that I thought Lieutenant Pecar was a likely candidate, would do a good job, long-term employee, been an acting Battalion Chief for many, many years and loved to a T. You could not go wrong with that guy. VLS: Did the Chief discuss with you, did the Chief ever indicate to you that he was going to be looking at candidates from the outside? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: No. I did assume that though. VLS: And so that would not be unusual that he would be looking at candidates from the outside? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Well, it would not be that unusual. I mean being a small Department, we try to promote from within, keeps morale up, keeps movement of our personnel. You know, so it would have been a good thing to promote from within. Now when Bill Moyer was promoted from another Department, but by far he was the most highly qualified personnel for the position. We had internal candidates then. And when it came down to our internal candidates against Bill Moyer, my advice to the Chief was Bill Moyer is by far the best guy for the job. If you can get him to come here, you have the best Training Chief in the County. VLS: Where did he come from? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Golden Gate. Naples Firehouse. And prior to that, he was at North VLS: Alright. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: A lot of experience. I spent a lot of time working with him. This guy was versed in every aspect of the fire service. And the I think the Chief would have hired someone like Bill Moyer, it would have probably been, and he had to hire from the outside, it would have been a much better strategic move, and a lot easier to defend himself. I mean, currently have Chief Pennington who I think is a nice guy, but he’s in my opinion, and strictly in my opinion, way underqualified. VLS: Okay, what do you know what, is there a job description for the Battalion Chief in charge of Training? - 51 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: There is, but it was never posted. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: We could get the job description very easily from Denise. VLS: Do you have any idea whether the job description itself is accurate? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It has evolved. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: From when we did these years and years ago. So, it is fairly accurate. VLS: Do you know what the qualifications are specified for the Battalion Chief in charge of Training? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I don’t know them off the top of my head, but for example, I could say that to be a Lieutenant in our Department you need to have at least have your Fire Officer 1, and you need to have Fire Officer 1 they teach you how to be an instructor so you get your Instructor 1, so I would say those are probably some of the very basic, simplest forms, you couldn’t get the Lieutenant, so you couldn’t get the Battalion Chief without those, and Chief Pennington has neither. He in fact is up in Ocala this week getting his Instructor Certification. VLS: Have you seen his application? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I did not. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: But the Chief sent his Résumé out. VLS: Okay, and that is how you know, that is one way that you know that he does not have those? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I asked him. I asked him point blank. VLS: You asked Pennington? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes. We had a, a little bit of, I don’t want to say misunderstanding because it was not a misunderstanding. It seemed like he was trying to tell the Chief that I wasn’t encouraging this respect towards him, which could not be further from the truth, but he sent a text that he meant to send to the Chief to me. So, I called him out and I said we need to sit down and talk about this because we are peers and you don’t know me, and I don’t know how you dislike me already, like me, - 52 - whatever, and he agreed that he sent the text incorrectly, but I misunderstood what he wrote in there. I am certain that I didn’t, but. VLS: What was in the text? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It ranged, because I didn’t include him on the staffing for the day. So every morning when I send staffing to the Chief, to the admin assistant and to all the Battalion Chiefs in the County that are on operations for the Shift. Now all of our, I don’t send to any of our guys. Our guys have access to the program. They open the program see who is on duty for the day. So, he asked me for it and I sent him the staffing for the day, and in my e-mail I said normally we check staffing through our Telli Staff program it is on all of our computers, and most of the guys have it on their phone, and I would be more than happy to get it, the app, download to your phone so that you could see it there as well, but here’s the staffing. And he screened shotted my e-mail and sent it to the Chief, and his comment was disrespect starts at the top. Which I am sure I have it on my phone. So we had a discussion, and then I was upset and I said well you know, you know he was a Lieutenant from where he came from and I said I have been a Battalion Chief for a long time. I have a lot of experience here and I have a lot of experience dealing with people, and I consider myself a bit of a people person, and I don’t think you are going about this right. If you have issues with me or something just come and talk to me, and part of our conversation I asked him where he’s going to school, going to school to learn how to be our Training Officer, so I was upset at the time, and he said that he was going to get his Instructor. And I told him that I had my Instructor for 20 years now, and had my FL1 for 20 years. VLS: And did Pecar, does Pecar have Fire Officer 1, Instructor 1? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Um, um. Now, Chief Pennington has his Bachelor’s degree and Pecar does not. So that would be the exception. That would be the caveat that someone would say well hey he is qualified because he has a Bachelor’s degree. But, I don’t think his Bachelor’s degree has anything to do with Public Administration or Fire Service. It is a Bachelor’s degree. VLS: If you still have that text, was it text that was misdirected, I would like to see that? As far as, I want to make sure that I understand that you said that the Chief lied to you about things in the promotion process, and I want to make sure that I understand. Specifically what he lied to you about and when? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Okay. So, really the, it really not the process, just about the fact that he kept leading us on by telling us that he was considering promoting from within, and all along he knew that he had already had hired his friend from Fort Lauderdale, so. VLS: Okay. So you believe that he had actually made the hire, extended the offer at the same time, I mean before he, he had already hired somebody when he made those? - 53 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: When he was telling me otherwise. I, I think when Nadelman asked Denise and Denise verified that information at least that is what I heard. There’s the text so if you tap it you will get the e-mail that I sent to him. VLS: Okay. Um, is there a way that you can forward that to my e-mail. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Certainly. Okay think I got it. VLS: Okay. Going back to the final point, I think we are on the 3rd point in the Union’s letter. Are you is there anything else that any other points or comments that you think go to the allegations in the Union letter about a lack, a misrepresentation, and exaggerations and mendacity creating a lack of trust? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Again, I can’t really speak to the trust between the Chief and all of the personnel, feel like that would be something that would be more accurate coming from them. I know that he has exaggerated, he’s lied about certain things. Right, wrong or any different, I know that there are instances of that. VLS: What do you know, give me the instances that you know where he has exaggerated or lied? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: The one that I wrote down, and I don’t know if, if it all works in here, but I know that at one point he had Cathy Carrington had come to me and said that she was doing a FOIA records VLS: Foia BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Freedom of Information Act yeah. And I can’t even recall who it was for, I should, but she was, she has been trained, so she is supposed to put in her time for the time that she works on it, and she was concerned because the Chief was increasing the time a couple of hours, increased it to 10 hours, and used his pay scale instead of her pay scale. VLS: Okay. But you don’t know who the public records request. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I don’t. I would imagine if you spoke to Cathy, she would probably have some information on that. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: But, she came to me with it saying what should I do, and I said what can you do. And if you are being ordered by the Chief to do it, you have to do it. VLS: Alright. Anything else on that? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: No. - 54 - VLS: On that point. Any other situations where you believe the Chief has exaggerated or lied that we have not talked about? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Not off the top of my head. VLS: I am going to I guess move on to the 4th point in the Union’s letter which states that the Chief has attempted to influence and otherwise cause the Union to undermine some City objectives. I don’t know if you have any information or anything that may be pertinent to that allegation by the Union. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Obviously, it would be tough for me to speak to objectives that the Chief has tried to get the Union to do, because I have not been particularly involved in any of that or present during any of those conversations. So, I guess there is really VLS: Nothing you can say on that point. Let me see if there is anything specific. Did the Chief ever make any statements or to you or in your presence about the City’s attempt to terminate fire positions at the airport? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He had me find 600,000 dollars in the budget, and how many people we would have to lay off to get to that number. Worked my way from the bottom up, turned out to be 6 or 7 guys, that I guess. VLS: I am not sure that I understand by that. He asked you what? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He explained to me that if we don’t get the airport to sign the contract that we would have to lay off 6 or 7 personnel to reach the loss of revenue that we got from the airport which was around 600,000 dollars. So the airport we put staffing at the facility out there and they pay us X amount of dollars which is around 600,000.00 for that personnel. VLS: So, what did he ask you to do? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: He wanted me to get on the list of the people that would be laid off. VLS: And that was, there was no question of who that would be and the amounts attributed to that? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: It’s clearly laid out on the CVA. Goes from the bottom, up. It was just a matter of finding total salaries with benefits and figuring out how many guys it would take. VLS: Did you think that was an inappropriate request? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: If you have to cut 600,000 dollars out of the budget that’s about the only way you can go is the personnel. - 55 - VLS: Are there any other observations or points that you would like to make understanding that my instructions are to look into the allegations that the Union has made about lack of trust in the Chief and an environment, and a poor working environment.? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I know that I told you before when we first started that Mike Nichols and I sat down a couple of years ago VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: And we were pretty frustrated with the way, the direction was going, and a lot of the bulk of our conversation at that point was the fact that everyone hates us now. We used to be the nice guys on the block. But, somehow the Chief finds a way to pick fights with everyone out there, and it’s, and it reflects on us and seen, pick fights with Directors, and I kind of feel like I gotta go around and say you know sorry about that. It’s just a, I know that was part of our conversation and I think you know, I think it has led to a deteriorated relationships with the Community, our longterm stakeholders. VLS: Okay, so when you are talking about relationships with the Community, you’re talking about, you are talking about Council? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I would say council, Airport Authority, just your everyday citizens. He’s, he just seems like we get hate mail from somebody we never heard of before, you know. And I know that he definitely picked fights with Councilman Finlay, and Councilman Sod, and Marvin Eastman, kind of a concerned citizen involved in fire service. VLS: Have you been approached or had conversations with Councilman Finlay about the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I haven’t’ talked to Councilman Finlay at all. VLS: What about Councilman Sod? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Mr. Sod lives in the same neighborhood as I do. He has asked me questions about the Chief. VLS: Okay, and you have responded truthfully to his questions? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes., yes, I have responded truthfully, but I, I didn’t offer any of my opinions. Would just ask to answer the questions. VLS: And what about Marvin Eastman? Have you communicated with him? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I actually had a long conversation with Mr. Eastman after the PSSI report, and we spoke at length over the differences that we had over staffing Station 3 versus removing the personnel from Station 3, and I gave him my - 56 - opinion of why I felt that it was important that we remained present on the Airport and not pull those people away. He is kind of a data guy, kind of a numbers man, and you can look and say well you run 80 calls a year there, you really don’t need people, but, you know, my business is different. I look at hazards and safety and you know all of the other prevention and all those other things that go into it, so we had a conversation like that about the Airport. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: One of the other things is like the State Fire Marshal. We had a fatality on 5th Avenue, and he got into a big argument with the State Fire Marshal who was trying to do an investigation on the fatality, and the Chief was bringing the media up on the aerial so that they could take pictures, and the Fire Marshal was saying look we are not done with our investigation, don’t, you know, you are contaminating the scene, and giving them an opportunity to publish pictures that might not be appropriate. VLS: Who is this State Fire Marshal? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: So there are a group of guys in our area, and I don’t have their names right now, I know he gave me his card because I was the incident commander on that fatality, and I watched their exchange, and the Chief said well you know you can get off my fire scene, and I went over to the State Fire Marshal and I apologized on behalf of us, and we invited you here to help us with the investigation and I am sorry that the Chief said that, we will get you in there just as soon as we can, so he did give me his card, and we exchanged cards. I’ll have to look, but I am sure I have it. VLS: That would be helpful. Anything else because you did bring some notes. Is there anything else that you wanted to share. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Nothing that I can say in confidence that would be correct. I know that was like a public records lawsuit that I thought was, when the Chief told me about it, my eyebrows went up because the guy doing the lawsuit was a good friend of his, had lunch with the Chief and him, and it made me curious as to how that gentleman would get involved in that lawsuit that really North Naples had against the City. It made me curious, if nothing else. VLS: Okay. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: But, I can’t say that I have any information other than knowing they are, you know, good friends. VLS: Okay. Were you present or did you watch the council meeting where PSSI presented their report? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I was present at. VLS: You were present at the meeting, physically present. - 57 - BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Um, um. VLS: And was there anything in their presentation that you strongly disagreed with? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I mean they clearly told council some things that I, that I knew were not 100% true, but they always gave the caveat that we were only here for X amount of days, we can’t do it that thorough research in 6 to 7 days, and that if there are things that are wrong, you need to present them to us and we will make the needed corrections. So, yeah there were certain things, nothing operationally. No staffing wise, apparatus wise, actually doing the job in the street. I don’t think they missed anything on that that I would strongly disagreed with. VLS: Did the Chief make comments at that meeting? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I don’t believe so, but possibly to the Station 3, because it kind of changed gears at one point when they had Marvin Eastman go up and give a little presentation on Station 3. I am trying to recall if the Chief had an opportunity to counter that presentation, but I don’t think he did. VLS: And this Station 3 is the Airport? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Is the Airport, yes. VLS: And was it your understanding that Eastman was in favor, that he felt the Fire Department should terminate the contract or not? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes, I have felt that. VLS: Okay, you told him that, when you did talk to him, that you had a different position? BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Yes, I did. VLS: Alright. Anything further. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: I think that is it. VLS: Okay, I really appreciate your coming over and sharing that information and participating in this interview and again you have my card, and at least, so long as the investigation or inquiry is pending, if there is something that you has happened since, or something that you forgot, or some document feel free to bring it to my attention. BATTALION CHIEF DIMARIA: Okay, I will. VLS: Okay. Thank you very much. With that I am going to turn off the recorder it being about 3:20 on Thursday. #2155808 - 58 - RECORDED INTERVIEW OF TINA BOWLING ON 12/7/15 VLS: Testing 1, 2. Good morning today is December 7, and as I explained by name is Vicki Sproat, I’m an attorney in Fort Myers with the Henderson, Franklin law firm and I have been retained by the City of Naples to conduct an inquiry or an investigation into some allegations against Chief McInerny that were made in an October 21, 2015 letter sent by the Union to the City Manager’s office. I don’t know if you have ever seen that letter. BOWLING: I have not. VLS: Okay. Um, we will take a look at that latter. Um, we are now in a conference room in the Human Resource offices of City Hall, and with me this morning is Tina Bowling who has been asked by me to come and give an interview. Do you understand that I am going to record this interview? BOWLING: I do. VLS: Okay, and before getting started with the interview, I want to make a couple of statements. City policy requires employees, um, who participate in inquiries or interviews like this to be forthright. Um, to be truthful in providing information. Do you understand that? BOWLING: I do. VLS: Okay, and City policy also provides that retaliation against an employee for participating in an interview such as this is contrary to policy. Do you understand that? BOWLING: I do. VLS: And so, if you feel that you have been retaliated in any way, retaliated against in any way because you participated in this interview, you need to report that to HR. Do you understand that? BOWLING: I do. VLS: Okay. With that in mind, I am going to ask you a couple of questions about yourself and try to understand what your role is in the Naples Fire & Rescue Department. BOWLING: Okay. VLS: So let’s start by you telling me your full name. BOWLING: Tina Louise Bowling. VLS: Okay, and has anyone discussed the fact that you are giving an interview with you? -1- BOWLING: I advised the Chief and the Fire Marshal. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: That I was called by the Day Charge Director and that an appointment had been made. VLS: Okay BOWLING: And that was it. VLS: Okay. Um, how many years have you worked for the City? BOWLING: The City, March 11 will be 3 years. VLS: Okay. And when initially employed by the City, what was your position? BOWLING: I was the Criminal Research Investigator for the Police Department. VLS: Okay, and when did, and what is your current position? BOWLING: My current position is Fire Inspector. And the, um, the, the, actual title is Fire Prevention Specialist. It is basically public education. VLS: Okay, when were you hired by the Fire Department? BOWLING: January. I started January of this year, 20, uh, 2015. VLS: Okay, and you moved, did you move directly from Criminal Research to Fire Inspector, Fire Prevention Specialist? BOWLING: No, I moved to Fire Prevention Specialist, and the Fire Department put me through Fire Inspector School. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And I finished that, I believe it was June or July of this year. VLS: Okay. Um, tell me what, what you did, first of all where is Fire Inspection School? Is that… BOWLING: I, I actually took that locally. I could have gone to the Fire Academy in Ocala, but because of the time frame of getting the classes in they did not offer all of the classes, um, in consecutive order, and it could have taken over a year if I had done that. So, the Assistant Fire Marshal of Greater Naples gives those classes, so I signed up with her and started immediately in January, did a class a month, and there were 5 classes, I finished in June, and then I scheduled my tests, and I took the test and passed the first time. -2- VLS: Okay, great. Congratulations. BOWLING: Thanks. VLS: Um, as a result of passing the test, did you receive a certification? BOWLING: I did. VLS: And what is that certification? BOWLING: Fire Inspector 1. VLS: Okay. Are you considered a civilian BOWLING: Yes VLS: Employee? BOWLING: Yes. VLS: What other education, training and certifications do you have besides Fire Inspector 1? BOWLING: I also received training, uh, Chief McInerny sent me to the National Fire Academy in Maryland, and I have the NFIRS National Fire Incident Reporting system. I have that training and I received a certificate for that. VLS: And what is that certificate called? BOWLING: It’s the NFIRS certified. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And that, that’s the incident reporting so that’s all of the statistics for each Department in each State, it’s a National database. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: Where all the numbers are recorded. VLS: Okay, and I have been given a book called The National Fire Incident Reporting System Reference Guide, January of 2012. Is that the current guide? BOWLING: I believe it is, but I am not positive. I do have the book so I could let you know at a later date. VLS: Okay BOWLING: If that is the most recent. -3- VLS: Alright. Um, to become a Fire Inspector 1, did it cost money to go through that testing, the class and testing? BOWLING: It did. It was $200 a class and it was 5 classes. The Fire Marshal allowed by to use his books. That way I did not have to buy books. VLS: Okay, and who paid for the training, and education that you received to become Fire Inspector 1. BOWLING: The Fire Department. VLS: Okay. Um, and what about the, to get to become NFIRS certified. Who paid for that? BOWLING: That actually I believe is paid for by the government. The Department had to pay for me to fly up there, but the actual class itself was considered grant money through FEMA. VLS: Okay. Um, how long were you at the National Fire Academy in Maryland? BOWLING: I believe I was there 6 days. VLS: Okay. And tell me what you learned to become NFIRS certified? BOWLING: I learned how the numbers that are reported, how they are gathered. My previous history is not with the Fire Department so the coding that the Fire Department uses was foreign to me. So, part of the training there were in the class, they were obviously people that were working operations in various Fire Departments across the nation, but there were also civilians that were also in that class, and they went over how incidents are coded, whether it is accident or if it is a vehicle fire, or it’s a structure fire. Every incident has a code. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And then there, then the, the, um, the information is gathered when the Firefighters fill out their report, so every incident that the fill out a report and the information is gathered then is reported to the State and then the State reports it naturally. VLS: Okay, um, do you know whether the Firefighters at the Naples Fire & Rescue Department have gone through the NFIRS certification? BOWLING: As far I know, I don’t think any have. VLS: Okay. Alright. Um, so where do you physically report to work? BOWLING: To the main headquarters, the Fire and Police Department is joined together. -4- VLS: And the physical address? BOWLING: 355 Riverside Circle. VLS: Okay. Who was responsible. First of all, when you started with the City of Naples, you were in the, on the Police side? Correct. BOWLING: Correct. VLS: And who was your supervisor there? BOWLING: Lieutenant Matthew Fletcher. VLS: Okay, and when you, um, changed positions and went and became a Fire Inspector, who hired you? BOWLING: Chief McInerny. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: I did interview with the previous Fire Marshal, and he was leaving. So, um, Larry Bocchi. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And I, I, I had one interview with the Fire, with Fire Marshal Bocchi and Chief McInerny, and then I had two subsequent interviews with Chief McInerny. VLS: Okay, and who do you currently report to? BOWLING: Fire Marshal Rogers. VLS: Okay. Did you start before Fire Marshal Rogers? BOWLING: I believe I started a week after he did. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: It was within a week or two. VLS: The Fire Marshal office is that a separate Department or Division of the Naples Fire Department. BOWLING: It is VLS: Separate from Fire Operations. BOWLING: Correct. Yes. -5- VLS: Okay, and um, Fire Marshal Rogers oversees that BOWLING: Fire Prevention VLS: Okay. Alright, um, and what hours do you work? BOWLING: I work 7:30 a.m. to 4 p.m. VLS: And tell me what your, um, duties are as the Fire, as a Fire Prevention Specialist? BOWLING: I handle education to the Community. I, um, conduct fire extinguisher training to the medical facilities that are required the staff has fire extinguisher training. I also conduct fire drills for, um, the medical facilities and daycares and pre-schools due to the (illegible) certification they have to have those annually. Um, I conduct, um, crowd manager training to the Community, to local businesses that have an assembly. Um, occupancy, so their staff has to know, um, how to handle situations when they have a crowd, how to get out safely. I put all of the education whether, um, school or pre-school or daycare with like a apparatus display from the operations side. I put all the training, or education into a calendar that the operational side sees. So, it is a shared calendar so that everyone can see and I will schedule whether I am involved in the training or not. I am required to put the scheduling into the calendar. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: I do obviously fire inspections. Also when I started, I have a background, I am a forensic accountant and I have a medical background, so when I had started with the Fire Department prior to being a Fire Inspector, while I was going to school, I was also doing analysis for Chief McInerny for the Fire Department. I did that, that was my sole function with the Police Department was analysis for the Police Department in, I did other things for the Police Department besides that. I had a broad, um, spectrum of duties that I, I did, but my main function was analysis and gathering data. That was VLS: How do you, tell me about the analysis and gathering data part of that related to your former, you are not doing that currently? BOWLING: With, not with the Police Department, but with the Fire Department, yes. VLS: Okay, tell me about the analysis and BOWLING: So initially, um, when I had started before I had even gone for NFIRS training with the National Fire Academy. I was gathering data from CAD. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So I was, information that the Fire Chief was interested in, run times, um, service calls, things of that nature, really any, any information that he needed data on because I was already familiar with the CAD system that is what I did. -6- VLS: Um, um. BOWLING: That was one of the, huh, huh, the reasons that I was hired also with the Fire Department was to run that data. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: When it might interview with Chief McInerny since we were all in the same building. VLS: Um, um. BOWLING: He knew the, the reports I was putting out for the Police Department, the analysis that I ran and he needed someone like that, I did not realize the Fire Department has never had anyone, anyone doing that duty. VLS: You were the first person that has been running data for the Fire Department? BOWLING: Well, I know, uh, Battalion Chief Nichols runs data, but I, not aware of any formal training that he has had or what his background is in data analysis whether he has an accounting degree or any other analysis, statistics or anything of that nature. I do not know if it was just working to his duties and he did that. I do know that he has not been to NFIRS in at the National Fire Academy. VLS: Okay. Explain to me, um, what you do when you gather and analyze data. That’s an area that I don’t know anything about. So explain to me how you gather and analyze data for the Chief? BOWLING: So, I would go in to the CAD system VLS: Which is Computer Aided Dispatch BOWLING: Computer Aided Dispatch. I would go into that system and I would put a date range of whatever the Chief was interested, whether he was looking at 6 months, whether he was looking at a fiscal year, whether he was looking at previous 5 years, um, 14 years. I have done all the way back 14 years looking at trends. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And comparing previous year to current year. Comparing previous month to current month. And that is what I had done with the Police Department so I was very familiar with that. The Fire Department changed their records management system. They previously had Vision RMS which the Police Department had. It was like a bundle and, um, I believe this past May, May of 2015, it might have been a year that they had gone to a new records management system called Image Trend. So, I was not familiar with that, um, the Chief from the very beginning of me starting with the Department wanted me, wanted for me to have access to the records management system that they -7- were currently using to gather data. Um, BC Nichols had admin rights because he would gather data from that so I would have to go through him to get that data. Huh. VLS: Is that the way it currently is. You go through Battalion BOWLING: BC Nichols VLS: Chief Nichols to get the data. BOWLING: Well up until just recently I would have to go through him because I was supposed to be set up with admin rights to get in and pull this data and it was always delayed. The availability for me to get in was constantly delayed by BC Nichols. So, up until just recently. VLS: When was the change that you apparently got the rights to go in directly? BOWLING: Probably within the last 30, 45 days. VLS: Okay. And when you say it was, so an analogy you have equal rights to get into the data as Battalion Chief Nichols? BOWLING: Yes. VLS: Okay. That is rights to access. BOWLING: Correct. VLS: Okay. You say that it was delayed by Battalion Chief Nichols. Was that in your mind purposeful, intentional delay? BOWLING: Yes. VLS: Okay. Explain for me what lead you to that conclusion? BOWLING: When, When I started with the Fire Department, the Chief had let the Fire Chief had let the Battalion Chiefs know, um, especially Battalion Chief Nichols since he did gather data, that I would be doing that function also, but I was gathering different data. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: For the consultants that were coming in. So, I, the data I was gathering was completely separate then what Battalion Chief Nichols, I believe, was gathering. Um, some might have been the same, but the majority of it was different. And running analysis, making charts, graphs, and I was working right alongside with Chief McInerny the majority of the time. Number 1 I could not go out and do fire inspections because I was not certified Fire Inspector, in between gathering this data and running these reports for Chief McInerny, I would go out with a Fire Inspector and shadow her and spend the day or half a day with her, sometimes several days in a row, if it was in -8- between the times that I needed to gather more data or run a report. If I was finished running the report. Um, I would send it to Chief McInerny, him and I would go over it, if he wanted something different. Sometimes you don’t know. So until I ran a report and made a graph, Chief McInerny and I would go over it and he would say I like that data or you know maybe we should stretch the timeframe out, maybe we should shorten the timeframe, or maybe when we are pulling this analysis ask a different question to the computer. Let’s gather this data. So that is when I say sometimes you don’t know what you don’t know until you see what you have and then, well, I want this data too, or I want this data instead. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So in between doing that, I would go out and shadow along with a Fire Inspector. VLS: What was the Fire Inspector that you shadowed with? BOWLING: Holly Wells. VLS: She still here. BOWLING: No. VLS: Okay. Have you taken her position? BOWLING: No. Um, last Monday they hired a new Inspector that fills her position. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: I took a position of Dave Robb, who retired. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So I was initially hired with the title as Fire Prevention Specialist for public education and due to just having two inspectors doing existing buildings was not enough they needed 3, so I believe in the beginning of October, my title was officially changed to Fire Inspector to have 3 Fire Inspectors doing existing construction. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: But I, I was advised by Fire Marshal Rogers and Chief McInerny that although my title is officially changed to Fire Inspector, I still would be doing public education because it is obviously needed. VLS: Okay. I think we started, um, this line of questioning, um, the fact you have recently been given, um, administrative access to data, and you said that the data was being previously delayed by Battalion Chief Nichols in your opinion intentionally. I am -9- not sure that you have explained to me yet how you have come to that conclusion and how that happened? BOWLING: When I started with the Department, even though I was hired as Fire Prevention Specialist, Chief McInerny did advise, um, the Battalion Chiefs that I also due to my background I would be running analysis in verifying data, um, accessing the data and there seemed to be, um, I got the impression Battalion Chief Nichols was very offended by that. Because I was a civilian, and he was a Battalion Chief, and I am pulling data. And he seemed quite offended. VLS: How did he express that? And how did you pick up the offense? BOWLING: When I had started, my third day with the Department, I rode around with Battalion Chief Nichols who showed me the different Fire Stations and took me around and introduced me to the staff on duty and it was my third day, and the whole time he took me around that was all he did was bad mouth the Chief, and I, I was, um, that felt odd to me, and I felt like what did I do, why did I come over here, and what did I get myself in to. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So, he, um, just talked about how, um, he did not like the Chief because he felt that he interfered too much with what they did. VLS: Okay. Um, what was the nature, okay, I get the broad idea of his criticism, but did he give any specifics about why he felt the Chief was interfering. BOWLING: No, he would make statements to the effect of, um, you know, he wants to change this, he, he is, uh, trying to do these certain things, and I lot of it I did not even understand because I did not have a history with the Fire Department, and he just felt like, he just made it, just specifically known that he did not like the Chief. VLS: Okay. How did that, how does that relate to what you believe is, um, is intentionally delaying. BOWLING: When I would need data and I could not get it from CAD and I would need it from the RMS system, I would have to go to Chief Nichols and I would ask him for this data, and his response would always be, why do you need that? Why is the Chief asking you to do that? What do you need to know that for? And that was the constant response that I would get, and I would say because I am running analysis for the Chief, he has asked me to do this, I cannot access the data without you getting me the data. When, it was constantly, then he would say, okay I will get it for you. When. So then a week later, I still need that data. Oh, I forgot to get that to you, okay, I’ll, I’ll get that to you, and I would tell him show me how to get it so I don’t have to go through you. My whole point is that I need to gather data, I don’t know how to run reports into the system, this would be week after week after week, in to the 2nd and 3rd month of me being with the Department and one day, when I finally got access to get in, admin rights, - 10 - I would get in, and then I would get in, um to the system, but he would not show me how to pull the data. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So then I would sign out and then a week later I would say I need this, I would login, and my login did not work. So I would have to go to Chief Nichols, my login does not work. Oh, um, I will have to figure that out. Okay. So then he would give me login rights again, oh I am going to have to change your password, I don’t know what happened. I would get in again, and then it may be a week before I have to go back in, maybe 2 weeks, my login does not work. It was constant. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: Constant. VLS: Do you believe he was interfering with the logins. BOWLING: I do. VLS: Okay. Did you report these concerns to the Chief, or to the Fire Marshal? BOWLING: I did to both. VLS: Okay, and what, if any, action was taken as a result of that? BOWLING: On certain occasions, the Chief would just walk in to the Battalion Chief office and if Battalion Chief Nichols was working that day, he would say Tina can’t get into the computer again. Can’t get into the RMS system again. Oh, okay. When the Chief had signed me up for the NFIRS schooling for the National Fire Academy, I had to bring with me a years’ worth of data to the class and each person for the class would have to bring in a years’ worth of data from their own Department and you would work on that data. VLS: Um, um. BOWLING: I think it took 5 months to get that data. And you had a time limit of when you could send it to the National Fire Academy and I would constantly say Chief Nichols I need that data, I still don’t have that data, Oh, I’ll get that data for you. Just show me how to get the data I’ll pull it myself. On one occasion, it was coming up to that time line so I was able to get into the RMS system and I did not know how to run the data, and I was gonna kinda guess. So I thought okay before I touch anything I went into the Battalion Chief office and I said Chief Nichols I need this data so I am going to run it myself, this is what I think I should do to get this data. Is that correct? No, no, no, don’t touch anything, that’s not what you do, that’s not where you get the data. I said that I have been waiting for the data, I need it. And, okay, I’ll show you. Again, put me off, put me off. So, I e-mailed him, and I copied the Fire Marshal and the Chief, and let him know this is the time constraint, I need this data. - 11 - VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So, what, huh, Chief Nichols did instead was he pulled the data and emailed it to me. And I downloaded it on a flash drive. So to this day, I still don’t, I have been now in a few weeks I will be there a year, and to this day I still don’t know how to run that data from the RMS system. I do know how to run it from the, this, the, um, National website because I learned that in the class that you can access the data that is sent but the problem is you are only getting the data that is supplied by the Department. So, I don’t know what has been submitted is the exact data. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: I do know that the data that, um, Battalion Chief Nichols did provide, and that I brought, put on the flash drive, and then went up to the Fire Academy and as you are working in a lab, analyzing this data there are a lot of errors in the data that should have been corrected by each Department. VLS: Okay, tell me the type of errors that you discovered when you were at the NFIRS training. BOWLING: There, um, the majority of the errors were say that an incident occurs, huh, a car fire, and these are the times that were given by dispatch and that’s the time that, the Firefighters or whomever writes up the report. Whosever on that shift, I don’t know how they decide determine who writes the actual report for each call. But that call is entered into the records management system. If something needs to be updated say the times were incorrect which happens a lot with the CAD system, the times may be incorrect, they have to be updated and corrected by, if not, the person who initially entered the report, but my the Battalion Chiefs who are on that shift have to do, um, basic quality control and look at each report, and make sure that everything is entered correctly, every line is filled out that is supposed to be filled out, that it is coded correctly. If it is coded incorrectly, the data is submitted incorrectly. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And sometimes things do change. After it has been entered, and it has been sent, say a month later something has changed or something needs to be added to that report, that is supposed to be corrected in the system in the records management system, and then it is supposed to be sent again. VLS: Sent to? BOWLING: The State. So the State Fire Marshal’s office that is where these numbers are run through. VLS: Um, um. BOWLING: It’s supposed to be corrected again, and there was so much data that was incorrect, and it was items like, it was coded wrong. Or the times did not match. - 12 - Basically, it said that, that the Fire Department, the truck got there at a certain time. Well the truck got there before the call was even dispatched so you get a negative time. Obviously, that is not possible. So that should be corrected, and then resubmitted to the State. VLS: Okay. So what you were seeing when you took the flash drive and was using that data were errors, um, where for instance times did not match, um, and you could see this in the audit trail? BOWLING: Yes. VLS: And what about the coding? What was wrong about the, what type of errors did you observe in the coding. BOWLING: There would be say you have under, huh, say you have a structure fire and you can have up to 10 or 15 different ways to break down a structure fire and they would, it, they would use say the wrong code. VLS: How could you determine it was the wrong code? BOWLING: They have. The Fire Department has, the thing that I like about, to, to go back a little bit, to help explain it. VLS: Yup. BOWLING: Fire Departments they code a structure fire, a car fire, um, the same whether you are in Florida, whether you are in California, a structure fire is a structure. No matter what State you are in. The Police Department on the other hand, a battery that occurs in the City of Naples, well in Monroe County might be called something else. VLS: Yes. BOWLING: In the whole State of Florida, it might be called something else. Um, I was, uh, police officer, uh, detective in Atlanta. What is a battery in Florida is not a battery in Georgia, so every State has different laws. VLS: Um, um. BOWLING: Uh, different crimes. The thing that makes the Fire Department so simple is it’s National. This is what it is. This is what you call it. Everyone has goes by the same code VLS: And that is the NFIRS code. BOWLING: Yes. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: It is the same code. - 13 - VLS: Okay, and I really want to understand what it is that you can look at on the flash drive and determine erroneous coding. BOWLING: So, say, um, on a day there was a, uh, a car fire. So you look at the times, you look how it is coded, and then it will say, car fire in, in, you have several choices that you can pick how, how that car fire is. You look at the next day or a week later, and another Firefighter has the same exact call, and they call it something else. And then you go a month later, and you have the exact same type of call, and that Firefighter called it something else. VLS: How do you know that? BOWLING: Because you go by the code. The code is actually listed. So, under, under structure fire, you have several choices that you can pick under the structure fire whether it was in a container, whether it was outside a container, was in on the stove, was it in the HVAC system. You have several ways to pick that structure fire. And you can go in and read the report and the report and the narrative will say, um, this was a fire that started on the stove in a container and they called it this. Then they have another one. You read the narrative. This was a fire that occurred on the stove that happened in a container and somebody called it something else. There is a code if something, if something whether it is a car fire, structure fire or wildlife fire, it does not matter what type of fire that it is, there is always a choice to use other, if, if what is listed by National Standards is not there, and it does not fit the fire you were at, or the incident you were at, you can pick Other and then you say your narrative why it was considered Other. A lot of times, the Firefighters will just pick Other instead of picking a specific. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: Because I am not certain but I do believe Other may be a default. Whatever is the default that automatically comes up, they just pick that. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And they don’t go in and actually go down the list and pick what VLS: Okay, so the errors that you observed one of the type of errors was that the narrative did not match the code? BOWLING: Correct. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: Other times, the, the times did not match. That happens when, um, say a call comes in to dispatch VLS: Um, um. - 14 - BOWLING: You have the dispatcher who answers the phone also runs the dispatch to the Fire side because the Police Department obviously has a lot more calls so that dispatcher for the Police side is specifically dispatching police calls. The one that is dispatching fire calls especially on the weekend when they only have 2 staff up there, the one that answers the 911 calls is also dispatching for fire calls. So, say you get a call, a dispatcher will get a call at, at 3:11 a.m., they get the call, they dispatch the Fire Department. They are entering all of the information they are calling, but they don’t put so that they say that they’ve dispatched the call to the Fire Department at 3:11, they may not get into the system to actually type in that the Fire Department was dispatched at 3:11, they may put 3:16, 3:17, well the Firefighters as they should are going to put in the time they were dispatched. VLS: Yes. BOWLING: It is up to the dispatcher’s to go back and correct the time and obviously they get busy and they don’t. So if you have a negative time, it would be up to the Battalion Chief who I imagine the Lieutenant’s review the reports, and then it goes to the Battalion Chiefs to review the reports. That should be caught. They should not be allowing negative times. VLS: Um, um. BOWLING: That should be caught and corrected and the Battalion Chief that is part of their duties to correct that. Either they are not being caught or no one cares and Battalion Chief Nichols, I believe, is the only Battalion Chief that submits this data to NFIRS. I know that Driver/Engineer Kofsky assists him in sending information or data, but nobody is correcting it. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So to me, so then when I pull the data, when I started, and I was pulling data, and I would see negative times, I’m like, okay how did the Fire Department get there before the call was even dispatched. They are showing on scene at 3:10 and the call was dispatched at 3:30. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: How does that happen? VLS: Is that the only timing issue that you observed? BOWLING: No, no, there’s, there’s dispatch time errors, there’s on-scene time errors, there’s clearing the scene errors, and I lot of this the Fire Department has no control over. It’s the CAD system. It’s dispatch being busy. But the Fire Department should or the Firefighter’s should be correcting that data before it is sent to the State. Okay. That VLS: Okay - 15 - BOWLING: Is just proper internal controls. VLS: Nichol’s reports data both NFIRS and to the State Fire Marshal? BOWLING: Well it goes to the State, it’s all one. NFIRS is with the State’s Fire Marshal so you are reporting it to them. So the State Fire Marshal gathers all the data for the State and then, that, that information is distributed Nationwide, so anyone, any person, it’s, it’s public record so any person can go in and pull data for California, South Dakota VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So, but it is only the data that, the, the State has to take it for face value. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: That’s what the data is VLS: Alright. So let’s say for instance, um, if there is a problem with, how would you determine if there was an error like in clearing the scene? BOWLING: That I wouldn’t know. I would just know that they cleared the scene It, it would show that I pulled the CAD report, but the Incident Report is different than the CAD report. They should, they should be in synch, in that is part of going to the Uniform CAD system with the County. There’s, there’s other ways to have, um, different data being sent, say, say they go on, um, huh, um, vehicle fire, and you are supposed to, and I have learned this, um, at NFIRS, that you have to put in a value. Say, um, a loss of property value, say they give a loss property value of 5,000 dollars. It, after it is determined that there was only a loss value of 3,500 that is part of what should be amended, that report should be amended, property value and content value is very important data that the State and National level is gathered. They should go in and amend that data. If it is a fire investigation, Fire Marshal Rogers goes and amends that data. It appears that he is the only one amending the data. So, if there is a fire investigation, then you have 99.9% chance of that data being accurate and amended. Because he will do it himself. But, if it doesn’t go to him, and it just stays within operations side the data is not being updated. VLS: How do you know that? BOWLING: Because of the data that I gathered, because of the data that was given to me that I brought to the NFIRS class, that, the, the State would say this is an error because this does not match. You have an error on this call because the times don’t match, you have an error on this call because you have negative times. You have an error on this time because this value was not filled out. They are very specific on the data that they gather and if that, that box is not filled out that is what will show the error as. VLS: But how would you - 16 - BOWLING: It will specifically VLS: But how would you for instance know that the property value on a report should have been amended and wasn’t? BOWLING: Because a lot of times it is not even filled out. That would show the error is not filled out. If they are not even filling it out, they, you can presume the data is not being amended and when I gathered data for the Chief for this analysis I came out with completely different numbers than Battalion Chief Nichols was providing the Chief. So the Chief asked BC Nichols we got something wrong here. Tina has this data and you have this data. So you have a property loss of this and Tina has a property loss of this, they don’t match. If you are pulling the exact same data, why isn’t’ it. Well, apparently per Chief McInerny when we tried to figure out where the error was wrong, it, the difference once it was analyzed, the difference was Battalion Nichols was not going in and updating the spreadsheet so saying that he did amend it in the Incident Report to the State he was not amending it to the charts and graphs he was giving the Chief, the Chief was giving his data to Council. So, I was providing different numbers so the Council was saying okay these are the numbers you gave last year and now you have numbers that include last year and the numbers are different. And that is how it was determined when you actually amended the value, whether it was property value or property loss or contents value, contents loss, the exact difference. Because BC Nichols was not updating the data he was giving the Chief. It was an exact value difference. VLS: Okay. Who were you, so you started, um, preparing reports for the Chief when? At what point in time. BOWLING: As soon as I started. Of January. VLS: Okay. And, were you the one that provided the reports that were used by PSSI? BOWLING: The majority, I believe so. VLS: Okay. Were you interviewed by PSSI? BOWLING: No. VLS: Okay. Is there any documents that have been prepared that show the difference in your analysis versus Battalion Chief Nichols’s analysis? BOWLING: I believe there is. VLS: What would you call that? BOWLING: I had say Chief Nichols, Chief Nichols would provide a spreadsheet of say the last 5 years or the last 10 years, or 14 years. He would provide the spreadsheet, so initially he was providing the spreadsheet and I was making charts and graphs off those numbers. - 17 - VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So, um, as time went on, I would update the data. So when I would go back in and I would re-pull numbers, and re-analysis numbers to go back several years, Chief McInerny would come to me and say okay the previous report gives this year, year to date value, and we have a discrepancy here, and I would say, um, what this is the spreadsheet that I received from Chief, Battalion Chief Nichols, but I would also get, um, data, that I would pull myself so if you pull from NFIRS, I would pull data. The Fire Marshal would amend his information so I would amend the spreadsheet, but then when Chief McInerny would ask BC Nichols hey can you pull me the data, again, Chief Nichols was not amending his data. So he would continuously give the Chief the previous data without the amendments. VLS: Okay, so he would be for instance Battalion Chief Nichols would be providing the Chief with say property damage values that did not reflect changes made by the Fire Marshal? BOWLING: Correct. VLS: And therefore it is inaccurate. BOWLING: Correct. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And VLS: And did they tend to be what the Fire Marshal was, had changed those do tend to be higher values that what Chief Nichols, I mean could you see any trends. BOWLING: Some, sometimes it would be lower. Or the content value, once people get in and really put a value on the contents, whether they have insurance papers, or they provide receipts or whatever, it could be less or it could be more. Someone might say that picture I had, it’s Naples, that picture is worth a million dollars. We are not going to know that until they provide the data. Sometimes it was more, sometimes it was even less. VLS: Okay, let’s go back and I think I ask you do you have any documentation that illustrates the difference between a report that you produced for the Chief comparing it to a report that was prepared by Battalion Chief Nichol? BOWLING: Most likely not. I could have because when I would get the spreadsheet from Chief Nichols or it would be the spreadsheet that Chief Nichols provided to Chief McInerny, and then Chief McInerny would send me the report. I saved everything. I save, I save every single thing I save. I don’t know if I made a whole new spreadsheet and corrected it or if I just corrected the spreadsheet that I originally received. So I don’t know if I made a copy of it and they amended 1 and left the original. - 18 - VLS: Okay. BOWLING: I don’t know if I have or not. I could have, but I’m not certain. VLS: Is that something you can check? BOWLING: Yay. VLS: I would like to understand an example. Since you have been on board, um, are the spreadsheets that you prepare the ones that go to Council. BOWLING: When, When I was preparing the data that Chief McInerny submitted to the consulting group that data I complied that data. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And whether it was through data that Chief Nichols gave me, or an updated version that I have received from Chief McInerny through Chief Nichols. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So I would, um, get the data and then I would make the report. Because at the time, especially these content values, and all that. I still can’t pull that data because Chief Nichols still has not shown me how to pull that data. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So, I have to go by what he gives me. VLS: Okay. Now, when you analyze data, are you able to determine whether, let me ask you this, what is the difference between what is recorded as a fire and what is coded as a fire and what is coded as a hazardous condition? BOWLING: I am not sure that I understand the question. VLS: Okay. As I understand it, and again, I’ve, this is not my field BOWLING: (talking over Vicki, illegible) VLS: Okay, it is foreign to me. Um, but I have been told that there is a difference between a fire and a hazardous condition? BOWLING: Correct. VLS: Okay. What constitutes a fire under the NFIRS definition? BOWLING: I would have to look it up. VLS: Okay. - 19 - BOWLING: It would be in there, but there is specifics on what a fire is. You can have a toaster fire, and this was something that was foreign to me, but the Chief would try to explain it to me, and then when I went to the class, they tried to explain it also. So you have a fire in your toaster. It is considered a structure fire. That is a structure fire. To me, I am like, okay, you have an appliance fire, um, or it is just a toaster, huh, it might have caught the cabinets on fire, but it was put out, but you have a toaster fire, it is considered, and this is a National standard, it is a considered a structure fire. There is a running joke with the Police Department, they, they had a, like Pop Tarts or something, and there was a toaster fire in the kitchen, you know, we share the same building, and it was labeled a structure fire, and the police officers would say How is that a structure fire, that’s a toaster, what is the Chief talking about? What are these Firefighters talking about? And I am like, I don’t know, I think it is a toaster fire too. And then I went to the class and it is nationally how things are labeled, it’s just what it is, so what nationally they have determined what a structure fire is, that constitutes a structure fire. VLS: And that is something that Chief McInerny told you, or is that something that you learned in NFIRS training? BOWLING: Well, I asked about it. Why is that a structure fire? And he said that is how it is coded. It is a National, what we go by is national. Whoever within the, um, National Fire Academy or a Board that many States are involved in, however, they determine nationally what a structure fire is. It’s a structure fire everywhere. So, not just in Florida, not just in California, structure fire is a structure fire. To me that is what makes it simple. It could not get any more simple than that. So, I had asked the Chief about that, and then he tried to explain it to me, still kinda foreign to me, then when I went to the class they have, um, and everyone has access to this, they have it, I have it on my desktop, like a pdf of each individual code. And then the subheadings under each code. So 100 code is this, 200 code is this, well then you have say structure fire, I believe structure fire is a 300 code, don’t quote me on that, but I think it is. So structure fire is a 300 code, well a 301 is this type of fire, this type of structure fire. A 302 is this type of fire under structure fire, it is a subheading. There are numerous subheadings. You always have a 0 code that means other, and I also learned in the class and through other agencies being there, that the people writing the reports get quite lazy and just put Other for everything. You have so many Others. The State does not like that because the State, Florida State Fire Marshal’s office uses Other codes also. If it just doesn’t fit anything on there it is an Other, but they have that listed. This is what it is, and you should use that. A lot of Firefighter’s whether it is Florida or anywhere else will just use, will just make up their own Other in their Department. We are going to call Other this, and the Others don’t match. And I talked to the person at the State Fire Marshal’s office that does the recording, that gathers all of the numbers from NFIRS, from all the Departments and I talk to him on the phone at length to try to understand why is this different. Why do we have all these errors? With the reporting, are they accurate. And he said, he advised me that if it is a serious discrepancy or a serious error that counts for something he will call that particular agency and say this does not match you need to fix it. He said that if it is something that does not matter in the big picture, he won’t call and say that you have to fix it. He said that it would be nice if everyone looked over - 20 - their numbers before they looked over their data, before the submitted it, because you can see the errors pop-up. VLS: Okay BOWLING: And you can fix it. VLS: How can you determine, you are not at BOWLING: That level. I don’t. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: The Battalion Chief should be doing that. VLS: Okay. How can you at in analyzing a data determine that a, an incident has been miscoded, in terms of labeling it as a hazardous condition, fire. How can you without being on scene know that it is an error? BOWLING: I can’t, number 1, because I don’t have access to all of the Incident Reports, because I still don’t know how to go in and get them. Then you can determine by reading the narrative or I could go back to CAD and compare CAD to the narrative. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So the, the dispatchers are going to put notes in per what the Firefighters are telling them as they are on call. They are entering the notes. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: Um, the Firefighters then should go in while they are writing a report be explicit. They need to be very specific in their narrative. And sometimes, you get Firefighters that copy and paste, they will copy everything in the CAD notes and just paste it into their narrative so you will have all of the data. Say they go to a rescue call and someone is having a heart attack. In the CAD notes, what shows up from the dispatcher is the whole thing. The checklist they go through. Is the person breathing? Does the person have a heart rate? Does, um, um, is the person on the ground? All of this data should not be in the final report is in there. And the data may be wrong because sometimes the dispatchers get really busy and they enter the wrong data into the call. So they may have two calls going on at the same time. A rescue call and a fire call, and whoops they entered all of the rescue call into the fire call. That is completely erroneous. And you will get some Firefighters, because I have seen the report, huh, Chief McInerny showed me how some of the reports were coming up, and it will be all copied and pasted. You will get like characters in there like greater than, less than, and just stuff that is so to me unprofessional because nobody went in and actually wrote the report. The Battalion Chiefs, the Lieutenants, that are in that Fire Station they should, they are supposed to review the reports. They should not allow that and then when it gets to the Battalion Chiefs and they review the reports they should not allow - 21 - that. And Fire Chief is not going to know, McInerny is not going to know. He has enough things to do, he is not going every Incident Report that is supplied. So he did not know that until data was being pulled for me VLS: To go to the class BOWLING: To go the class, um, and to review how reports were being VLS: Okay and did you after attending the class and being provided with this flash drive did you provide any analysis to the Chief explaining or demonstrating that there were many errors in the data? BOWLING: I did. Verbally, I had a meeting with him and explained the errors. I still have the flash drive with all the data. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So, I have the hard copy of it, but I also advised him that with the majority of those errors when I called the State Fire Marshal’s office and said how is this effecting what is reported to the State, the State Fire Marshal, um, representative, works that data, not the Fire Marshal, not State Fire Marshal himself but the person collects the data advised me that if it was a severe error, then he would contact our Department, Chief Nichols, to have that data amended. He, and he said to me, that the, the individual with the State Fire Marshal office. He advised me that he would never let a severe error, that went to a major statistic that is gathered nationwide be put through. VLS: Okay, so if it was a minor error, BOWLING: and it’s the times, the run times. VLS: Who is the person you spoke with at the State who told you if it is a severe error that they would contact the Department. BOWLING: I, I can get you his name. I don’t recall. VLS: Okay. And, did that person indicate to you that there had been numerous communications with Chief Nichols or with the Naples Fire and Rescue Department about the severe errors? BOWLING: He did not. He did not say there was like 80% were severe or 2% were severe. He did not give that. He just, I was concerned, about what was being, data that was being given was wrong, and he was advising me that he would never let a severe error go unchecked. VLS: Okay. So, he is saying he most likely caught those errors. BOWLING: Absolutely. - 22 - VLS: Okay, so whatever you were seeing in terms of errors they probably did not represent substantial errors because those would have been corrected. BOWLING: That were reported nationally. But those errors were still there that’s been given to the Chief. The Chief has to go by what Chief Nichols gets him. So the Fire Chief has to just take for granted what Chief Nichols has been giving him, however, long he has been doing it. The Chief has to take that for granted. He was concerned because, he was concerned that he was not getting complete accurate data. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And that is where I came in, and that is where the animosity arose between myself and Chief Nichols. Because he felt that I was impeding on his territory. VLS: Okay. So that, that. Okay. BOWLING: Because when I would provide Chief McInerny with data, and he would compare it to what he received from Chief Nichols, he would go to Chief Nichols and say, why is the data different? VLS: Because what you are showing the Chief is the data that has been pulled from NFIRS. BOWLING: Correct. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: That, that data or if the data was corrected by a Fire Marshal and updated VLS: By a Fire Marshal that would be as to values not as to BOWLING: As to values VLS: Incorrect coding BOWLING: As to values. VLS: Okay. Understanding that there is, has been in your observation a difference between the data that, uh, Battalion Chief Nichols is providing to the Chief versus the data you pull, um, how would you characterize that difference? Does it tend, does Chief Nichols’ data tend to, um, BOWLING: Tends to be lower. VLS: Okay. Tends to be, that, that’s exactly what I was asking in terms of value. Tends to be lower BOWLING: Lower - 23 - VLS: Lower in terms of what value? BOWLING: Tends to be lower in, um, loss of property values, tends to be lower, um, in content values. Um, on some occasions, it may be higher, but it is rare that it is higher. VLS: Okay. Now what about Nichols, the data that Nichols submits to the Chief as far as the coding of an incident whether it’s considered more severe or less severe. BOWLING: Huh, that I, I would have no idea to or access to. VLS: Okay. So primarily your observations are as to damage value. BOWLING: Right because I can receive that information, corrected by the Fire Marshal. Because the Fire Marshal immediately corrects when he gets that information. VLS: Okay. Alright, so when did you have the meeting with the Chief where you reported the errors that you had learned by virtue of getting the flash drive and attending the NFIRS. BOWLING: When I returned back to work, um, I believe it was probably a week later because the Chief was out with his eye injury. VLS: Okay, so this would have been approximately when BOWLING: This was in August. I went to the class in August of this year. VLS: Okay, so sometime in August 2015 after returning from the NFIRS class you met with Chief. BOWLING: Correct. VLS: And, um, what did you tell the Chief? BOWLING: I, he, he wanted to know the whole thing. He wanted to know how the class was, how, because he obviously has been up there to the Fire Academy. He wanted me before I left, he also wanted me to get information on other classes up there. He wanted to send more people up there, especially on the operations side up there for training. He wanted me to get catalogs and brochures and find out other classes that are going on. That was one of the things that he had tasked me with. Um, he also wanted to know how the class was laid out, who instructed the class, did I feel like it was informative, and worth going. Um, he wanted everything. How they treated me? The food. He was interested in everything. And he said, he stated to me that he wanted to most likely he was going to offer Chief Nichols and, I believe, Firefighter Kofsky, and maybe another person to go up there for the same class. He said that he is going to offer it to them if they would like to go. He goes, I feel that it would be very informative. I told him that it would definitely be informative because of him. - 24 - VLS: And did, do you know if in fact they have been offered the opportunity to go to that class. BOWLING: I don’t know. VLS: Okay. What in your meeting with the Chief in August 2015 after attending the NFIRS, um, uh, training, um, did you report to the Chief the number of errors that had appeared by virtual of using the flash drive prepared by Nichols? BOWLING: That there were errors on it. VLS: Yes. BOWLING: The number of errors. I did. I told him. VLS: Okay, now did you prepare anything in writing to him? BOWLING: I do not believe I did. VLS: Okay, and tell me how you would have explained to the Chief? The number of errors. Tell me what you reported. BOWLING: I would just give him the spreadsheet and show him because the errors were there. They are listed and it says exactly what the errors are. VLS: Okay, and do you have that spreadsheet? BOWLING: I do VLS: Okay, and what, if I am like asking you for the spreadsheet what would you label that spreadsheet? BOWLING: I have it labeled, um, I think I labeled it NFIRS data and for the time period. Because I needed a years’ worth so they wanted all of, um, for the class, they wanted all of the calendar year for 2014. I could not provide that because we did not this RMS system. VLS: I see. BOWLING: Up, and they didn’t, um, be implemented I think until May of 2014, so I contacted the Instructor, and said can I use May 2014 through May 2015 data and they said absolutely, because I explained to him that we did not have that data. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: Could not be gathered. VLS: Alright. So, what you, what you have is the NFIRS data analysis for May 2014 to May 2015 and that has been run and it shows the errors. - 25 - BOWLING: Correct. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: but I have to take for face value that is all of the data because it was run by Chief Nichols. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So I can only go by, that’s what he gave me. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And I don’t know how that data was gathered. VLS: Okay. Can you, okay, I think I, I think I understand. BOWLING: Now I know how, which I learned in the class, and I also talking to the gentleman with the State Fire Marshal office, I know how to go into the, um, the NFIRS website. And I can pull the data from there. But I don’t know how to pull it from our system, and that data is only good what is put in. So if it is garbage in, garbage back. VLS: Sure. As a result of your attending the NFIRS training, would you know if you went to a scene how to code what you observed? BOWLING: I would because I would be able to go back and look at all the options under that type of fire and you pick what exactly matches that, and if there is not an exact match, then at that point you would pick the Other. VLS: Okay, so you would know for instance if you went in and observed that there was problem with the electrical wiring and the ballast. BOWLING: There would be a code for that. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: If, if you had a dumpster fire. There’s a code for that. VLS: Okay. Um, and what constitutes, to be considered a fire, what do you have to have? BOWLING: I would have to read VLS: If you want to look at the book I would be happy. I’ll tell you what. Let’s take a break. BOWLING: Okay. - 26 - VLS: Tina, it is now 10:10 and let’s start up in about 15 minutes. Um, take a break for whatever reason, but let’s go back to that question when we return to the record. Okay. BOWLING: Okay. VLS: Okay we are back on the record. We took a break. I am here with Tina Bowling. It is now about 10:20, and I think we took a break when I was asking you about how NFIRS, uh, what NFIRS description of a fire is. BOWLING: Okay, so if there is any question there is, um, they have, um, and I know the Fire Department has them, I have seen them. Mike Nichols actually provided me with it prior to me going to the class, the breakdown of the coding system. So, but in the book you receive for the class, it describes, it gives a definition. They are specific. So, if, if you had a fire, um, and you wanted to differentiate, you want a structure fire, so it tells you exactly. A structure fire is any fire inside a structure whether it involves the structure or not and any fire under or touching a structure that involves the structure. That is a structure fire. Period. So. VLS: What constitutes a fire? BOWLING: So constitutes a fire. So you would go under fire. Fire: Any instance of destructive and uncontrolled burning including explosion of combustible solids, liquids, or gases. Fire does not include the following, except where they cause fire or as a consequence of fire, lightening or electrical discharge, unless it causes a fire, that is not a fire. Rupture of a steam boiler, hot water tank, or other pressure vessel due to internal pressure and not to internal combustion. Explosion of munitions or other detonating material. Accident involving ship, aircraft, or other vehicles. Overheat condition. VLS: Those are examples of what is not a fire. BOWLING: Those are examples of what is not a fire. Right. VLS: So the basic definition you need to have destructive or uncontrolled burning. BOWLING: And then there is a specific definition of a building. A building is a structure enclosed with walls, and a roof and has a defined height. That is a structure. So, if you want to then know what a structure fire is, that is what I had read, what a structure fire is, anything that is inside those four walls and roof that is why the Chief was explaining to me that a toaster fire is a structure fire because it occurred in the structure, inside the structure. So, if it is in the structure, it is a structure fire. So it may sound almost moronic to say your Pop Tart caught your toaster on fire and you put it out, and you have a structure fire. People think a structure fire is the whole house burning down, or the whole house on fire. But that is not the case and the Chief does not decide what these are. This is national definitions. VLS: Okay, understood. - 27 - BOWLING: So. VLS: Understood. So okay BOWLING: When, when the Firefighters are filling out their initial reports, they have all of this information. Number 1 they learn in fire school, and number 2 they have the checklist of what a fire is and how it is coded. They have a whole coding system. Now, when you do a fire report, it is considered modules, I learned this there, um, also. So you have a basic module that you have to fill out no matter what, has the basic information of the address, incident address, um, the incident date, the year, um, the incident number that it was given. All of that information is on that first portion, that may be the only portion of the report that you fill out. But, if you, the second, so that is called the basic module. The second module is the fire module and that tells you when you would fill out that fire module. So when you fill out the basic fire module, the basic module, and you check off things that happened, it directs you, if you checked off this box, you have to fill out the fire module. Or, you have to fill out the structure fire module, or you have to fill out civilian fire casualty module. The basic one tells you and it leads you to the right path and now that most places are all electronic it takes the error out because when you fill out, because if you fill it out completely, it will tell you the next module. VLS: I see. BOWLING: That you have to fill out. That has to go with it. But if you do not fill it out completely, it is not going to direct you. VLS: Okay. Um, do you know whether there has been any significant change in say the past 5 years in how NFIRS categorizes fires? BOWLING: I don’t. VLS: Okay, that was not something you learn about the history of the NFIRS system. Just went to learn the existing system. BOWLING: They, they did give a basic history on how it works and it has to go through, if something needs to be changed, it has to go through this long. It has to be submitted, it has to go to the Board, it, it, there are so many steps of getting something added or taken off or amended. VLS: Okay. Um, do you know whether the Chief since coming to the City of Naples has instituted or instructed the Battalion Chiefs to code things differently than they have been previously coding? BOWLING: I don’t believe so. The impression that I have received was make sure that it is being coded correctly. VLS: Okay. Alright. Um, you told me that, I think you told me that the Chief instructs you to pull, um, reports on, uh, a regular basis? - 28 - BOWLING: Yes. VLS: What reports does he regularly have you pull? BOWLING: And this was all during the timeframe of gathering the data for the consulting group to come in, since they’ve received that data, I have not pulled any data. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: But prior to that a big thing that they were looking out were response times. Um, the apparatus that responded, the closest unit or station that responded, um, I would also pull the data of how many calls came out of Station 1, how many calls did they run, how many calls did Station 3 run, um, I felt, I felt like when I was pulling a lot of this data it was in my opinion that not enough credit was given to each fire station on what they did. Not through the fault of the Chief, but through, um, I guess nobody asking the right question VLS: Okay, tell me what you mean by that? BOWLING: Well, the, the big controversy going since I have been with the Fire Department about Station 3, the airport station, that you know it seems like some people in the Community and members, and some members of City Council felt like it was a useless station, nobody does anything and they just sit around and there is nothing to do. And, since I have to schedule public education in whether there is a tour of Fire Station, I schedule all of that. Take for instance, Fire Station 3 at the airport. They do so much that the public does not see. That City Council does not see. So, one of the things that, that the Chief had asked me to do also when I started was to update the City Fire Department website, make it more current, make it look better. I also started a Facebook page for the Department, um, apparently, when the Chief had asked me to do that, let the public know what the Department does. Also, informative educational materials for different times of the year. Or if there an event, fire prevention day, fire prevention week, or say the parade downtown, I would enter all of this for the Community to see, anyone could see. So, it is a public page. So when I had started it, I had noticed that several Firefighters from different Stations had their own Department Facebook page that the Chief did not know about. So, they were putting stuff on their, there was a lot of blogging going on, people, they had it completely opened so someone from South Dakota could get on there and blog something stupid. That was not relevant or they were just so misinformed. Once it is on there it is on there. No one was really monitoring it and they were putting information on there that the Chief had no idea. So, when I started the Facebook page, I made myself, Chief McInerny, the administrators of the Facebook page. So only him and I can put the information on their initially. Now people can comment, but I have the security feature on there that it won’t just go on there without my approving it. To prevent that from happening. VLS: Okay. - 29 - BOWLING: So whether you get a disgruntled Firefighter with the City to write something on there inappropriate or just Joe Smith from Egypt on there writing something inappropriate. VLS: So you are able to edit the comments. Or delete. BOWLING: Just not let them post. I can allow them to be posted or not. I don’t edit anyone’s comments. VLS: Right. BOWLING: If I agree that I think it is appropriate material and appropriate comment I will just let it post. VLS: Okay. And how do you determine whether something is appropriate comment for the Facebook page? Is that something you consult with the Chief about? BOWLING: If I have a question whether it is appropriate, I will consult him. If it is just a common sense issue of someone putting cuss words on there, I am not going to allow it or someone who may be disgruntled makes a comment, I just don’t want that to be what our Facebook page is about. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So, if it is just a common sense. The majority is just common sense. VLS: Okay. Um, has the Chief given you any direction on how he wants the Facebook to depict the Department? BOWLING: He wanted him and I discussed what, how, the route we were going to go when we started it. I would tell him nobody really knows what those Firefighters at Station 3 do. I said can, when they have a tour out there or some training out there, I said can I go out there and photograph it and put it on the Facebook page to promote what these Firefighters, their knowledge, what they are doing, and he was all for that. He, in any of the Stations. Anything that was going on. I was doing that. Take for instance, Station 3, you know, some members of the Community that are not interested in public safety, or have no use for public safety whether it is Fire Department or Police Department, they are very vocal about it, um, it just City, members of City Council have no idea, um, that is what I would go and do and because I didn’t know, I had no idea. So when I was going out there, I am like, okay, the Firefighters that are assigned out there, they are doing all of this training that no one knows. They are training all the staff at the airport, the baggage people, the, the people that are pumping fuel. They are giving them fire extinguisher training. They are giving them training on the hazards of the flammables out there. There are so many different flammables out there. You have Mosquito Control out there that has their own issues, issues of what they store. They go. These Firefighters go and regularly, I think it is every Tuesday, they do, the whole airport. They check all of these different areas, and make sure that everything looks - 30 - good. I believe the FAA only requires it quarterly or monthly. And they are doing it every Tuesday. VLS: And where did you, got this information from going there yourself? BOWLING: Right, and talking to them, what are you doing today? VLS: Who was the primary person that you dealt with at Station 3? BOWLING: Lieutenant Crisp. He has been there, I believe, he might be the longest, um, running person assigned to the airport, but I think also within time in the Department. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So he is a wealth of information. I, I talk to him at great length because he was, I told him, I said I am out here obviously I do fire extinguisher training, I know nothing about flammables at the airport. I don’t know anything about jet fuel. There is no reason for me to know that. I go out there when they are doing the training to help them with the equipment, gathering equipment, cleaning up and then while they give the talk and demonstration I take pictures, but I can’t in my opinion in all good conscience try to explain anything that has to do with flammables out there because it so beyond my scope. VLS: Yes. BOWLING: of understanding. So they are a wealth of knowledge during this training, excuse me, this training out there. They also do tours almost every day, somebody is having a birthday party, and they want to tour the airport, part of the tour is the, um, fire apparatus that is out there, the, the firefighters that are assigned to that Station, they give the whole talk with all these kids, um, they do this sometimes 2 or 3 times a week. I, I was amazed because I have to schedule these so I started going out and taking pictures VLS: Okay BOWLING: during this. It, it took promote what they are doing. VLS: Okay BOWLING: so the public can see that. VLS: Alright, um, you told me that when you started, you took over the Facebook, or created the Facebook? BOWLING: Created the Facebook. VLS: Okay. - 31 - BOWLING: Now the other Facebook pages that were out there that Firefighters had created that the Chief did not know VLS: Um, um BOWLING: He had sent out a memo and asked them all to take them down so we would have 1 cohesive site. They could, they could send me stuff if they wanted to put down there VLS: Um, um BOWLING: Um, but he wanted them all taken down. VLS: And do you know if they have all been taken down? BOWLING: I do not know that. Um, but I know that, um, verbally some Firefighters were put off by that. VLS: Okay. Do you have that memo that went out? BOWLING: I don’t. VLS: Okay, when did that go out BOWLING: He might have just put it in the e-mail and just said please take down all the Facebook pages, um, yeah, I have no idea. VLS: Do you have any idea when he sent out that memo? BOWLING: I have no idea. VLS: Would it have been since, apparently since you been on board? Okay. Um, so let’s go back for a minute to the reports that you, um, pulled per the Chief’s request for the consultant. Is the consultant PSSI? BOWLING: Yes. VLS: Okay. Um, and you said that you pulled response times, meaning BOWLING: Meaning so the, the whole gamut from time of dispatch to clearing the scene. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And I would pull those from CAD if it was negative time I would go back through the CAD notes from dispatch and see what the actual time was and I would correct it. VLS: Okay. So what you provided to PSSI contained your corrections? - 32 - BOWLING: Yes. VLS: Alright, and response times that is reflected in the report that you gave PSSI would be from the time of dispatch to when you say clearing the scene, does that relate to a command that BOWLING: When they are completely done, and the last truck is gone. VLS: Is that when they command fire out to dispatch? BOWLING: So, so say, um, it starts out with the um, um, the call to dispatch and then we dispatch, dispatches the Fire Department, and then it will show the first truck arrival, and then it will, um, show time on scene, it will show then when, uh, it is cleared, and that should be the end. Now, one of the big issues that was brought up with City council and certain members of the Community saying that it was taking too long before the Firefighters show up. Why is it taking 30 minutes to show up? What the Chief has tried to explain, um, is the way the CAD system is currently, it has been, is say there is a traffic accident and the police were dispatched. They are out there working the accident and then 30 minutes later, oop, somebody says, oop, do you know what now they are being charged with the accident, my neck hurts, and you go the hospital. So, the police officer will tell the dispatch, dispatch me rescue. When you dispatch rescue, Fire truck is going to go too, so they all have to go. So, the call went out at 1 p.m., the Fire Department got there at 1:40, why did it take you 40 minutes to get there, and then you got City council members or members of the Community why did it take you 40 minutes, what are your Firefighters doing? Laying around sleeping? Well no, it actually took them 2 minutes to get there, but because the way the CAD works it does not differentiate between the Police Department and the Fire Department. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So the only information that is given is this is when the original call was dispatched, that’s when the Fire Department got there. It doesn’t include when the Fire Department was called. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: Because it’s not. VLS: Okay, so there is nothing that you can do in looking at the records that would BOWLING: We can. VLS: You can correct that. BOWLING: We can. VLS: Discrepancy. - 33 - BOWLING: We can go in and correct that, but from what I understood from the data that PSSI was gathering it sometimes a City council member would request, do a records request and they would request it directly from dispatch and make a records request, they’re just getting, this is when the call went out, this is when the Fire Department got there. VLS: Okay. So, what would you pull as data that would correct that discrepancy? BOWLING: I would pull the complete data when the Fire Department was finally called, and when they got there. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: CAD. You can go in there and pull that information, but you have to ask the computer to give you that information. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: If you are just asking when was, when the, the accident go out, it took 40 minutes for the Fire Department to get there. They are not asking the right questions, and unless you ask specifics, if you get a records request, and they ask, so you request records and you want to know when the call went out, when did the Fire Department get there, you are not asking the right questions. VLS: Okay, so, in, when you pulled the data for the response times at the request of the Chief or the consultant, you were able to by asking the right questions, prepare what you believe is accurate data? BOWLING: Yes. VLS: Okay. Um, are you involved in all in responding to public records requests. BOWLING: Not on the Fire Department side. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: I did when I worked for the Police Department. VLS: Alright. Um, you also said that you pulled reports on apparatus that responded. That is something that you did for at the Chief’s instruction for PSSI? BOWLING: Correct, so when you do, when the Firefighters fill out these modules, there’s an actual apparatus module that they are supposed to fill out. And, it gives the first truck on scene, 2nd truck on scene, the 3rd truck on scene. And, in it, in there, when they are filling out these reports the Firefighters are supposed to put everyone on that truck that responded. VLS: Okay. - 34 - BOWLING: Well, I noticed that this was a common practice nationwide that I learned in that class, because every agency that was there had the same, um, issue. So, you will get a Firefighter filling, you want the first apparatus there. Well they will fill it out and then you got the 2nd one, the 3rd one, the 4th one. Well when they are filling out the module, it will show 10 people showed up, well you only 3 on that apparatus. How did you get 10 people on there? So they were not differentiating between the different vehicles, the different apparatus that were there, and VLS: And BOWLING: And you may have, um, you may have a ladder truck, you may have a Fire & Rescue, you may have all of these different apparatus. If the first unit there has three people on the truck, but your paperwork shows there is 10 people because you just picked everybody on the shift, or everyone that is working in that Fire Station for the day. It is inaccurate data. VLS: Okay, and how could you determine that the data on the apparatus that responded to a scene was inaccurate? BOWLING: Because you know they are not putting 10 people in a truck that holds 2. VLS: And when, when you ran your reports, did you do something to correct that? BOWLING: No, um, the, the data that I would see when I went to the class as I was pulling the reports, and analyzing the data there. The instructors are saying that that is why that is wrong. And then people would say we have that same issue, or someone we have that same issue. It should be corrected, it should be put into the initially report properly. VLS: Okay, so this is nothing you have gone back and corrected later BOWLING: (illegible) VLS: Because you are unable to do that BOWLING: Because I don’t modify the reports. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: The Battalion Chiefs, the Lieutenants for each Fire Station should do that when they are reviewing the reports, and if it gets missed then the Battalion Chief needs to VLS: Okay BOWLING: Correct that. - 35 - VLS: Alright, so when you pulled those reports for the Chief to provide to the consultant, you just provided the data.\ BOWLING: The data VLS: That was in the system? BOWLING: I am just providing the data of what truck was the first arrived, not how many people were on it. That, that data was obviously gathered somewhere because that was a question that was brought up by some City council members and members of the Community, um, how many people were on the truck, how many people were there. Someone gathered that data. I did not. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: I, I, I mainly did charts and graphs on the data I was given because I could not run from the RMS system, I could not pull data. I could’ve looked from CAD, but VLS: So you ran charts and graphs. Who provided you with the data to put in the charges and graphs? BOWLING: From CAD, myself. If it was from the RMS system, I had to get it from Chief Nichols. VLS: Okay BOWLING: And whether he would just give it to Chief McInerny, which, uh, usually that was the route that went. Chief McInerny would advise Chief Nichols he needed that this data and then when Chief McInerny would get it, he would send me the data to make a chart. VLS: Okay. And how would you determine the number of calls out of each Station, you said that you ran a report on that? BOWLING: Because you can specifically filter out, you can, I would gather all of the data and put it in a spreadsheet and then I would filter it down to Station. VLS: Okay. Um, have you seen the PSSI report? BOWLING: I did. VLS: Okay, have you read it? BOWLING: Not completely. VLS: Okay. Um, are a lot of the charts and graphs that are included in the Report were ones that you did. BOWLING: If they are in there, then they are the ones that I provided. - 36 - VLS: Okay. BOWLING: My, my interest on the report, specifically that I looked out was the suggestions they made in Fire Prevention. VLS: Okay. Alright. BOWLING: I think the thing that helps also, um, and I believe was Chief McInerny’s intent was, I’m a neutral person, I’m not in operations, so to me I am going to gather the data no matter what the data says, this is the data and if it is bad for the operations side, or good for the operations side to me, um, um, I am going to give the data as it is, accurate data. Even though I am with the Fire Department, since I am not in operations, if the numbers look bad for operations, I am not going to eschew the data and try to make it look better than it is because I really don’t have a dog in the fight. VLS: Okay. Good. Um alright. Um, I am going to go now to the letter that is really the focus of the inquiry that I have been asked to conduct, and I know that you have not seen it before, so I am going to give you a few minutes to read it over, understanding what I am going to be asking you is whether you have any information that is relative to the specific, um, there are 4 enumerated allegations in the letter and I am going to ask you if you have any information that relates to those allegations. So we will go off the record for a minute. It is 10 of 11. VLS: We are back on the record, it’s about 8 of 11 now. Um, and what I would like to do, you got in front of you the letter from Local 2174 to Mr. Moss dated October 21, and I would like to ask you whether you have any information, uh, relating to an allegation that the Chief has mislead the Community and City staff and in particular he has created a misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities? Do you have any information relative to that allegation? BOWLING: I believe so. VLS: Okay, what information do you have? BOWLING: I, the way I understand this, I know that when I was providing data for the Chief, and Chief Nichols was providing data for the Chief, when they did not match as we discussed before, it was, we would, and re-analyze the data. Myself and the Chief. The Chief and BC Nichols would then, if it, uh, um, had to do with, um, amended property loss, property damage, obviously the Fire Marshal would be, um, consulted, but that’s the data if, if they are saying that the data is different, that is why the data is different as we explained before. I have also run created reports for the Chief where each Fire Station is located, and then I would pick when they were trying to do closest unit or closest Station, if there was fire, I provided the Chief where I would do each Fire Station, and then I would pick an address in the City and how long the closest Fire Station could get there in that time. And when you, when they were discussing, um, other jurisdictions providing some, um, firefighting in case they got rid of that Station, how long it is going to take for this agency in this jurisdiction to get there. - 37 - VLS: Yes. BOWLING: So I would do the comparison of it, it would take 2 minutes for our closest Station to get there. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And it may take 8 minutes for the other jurisdiction to get there so I would do that, um, I made that, unless they are talking about. But I did a whole map. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: Um, so, VLS: Was there anything in what you were instructed to do that led you to believe that the City was misleading the Community and City staff by creating a misimpression of need where it did not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities? BOWLING: No. I don’t, I don’t think so at all. The Chief was approving the point that the Fire Station was needed and that the staff was needed. VLS: Okay. Um, anything else on that particular point that you want to bring out based upon what you learned in your tenure with the Naples Fire Department? BOWLING: Nothing that I can think of. VLS: Let’s go to the 2nd point in the letter which states the Department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity. Do you have any information relative to that allegation? BOWLING: I do. When the data was analyzed and updated as I spoke of before if it was never amended by the Battalion Chief, whether it was damage, the intensity of it, um, the number of calls, if it was not amended by the Battalion Chief then the data I would gather would be different. In, when the majority of the time, when it is amended, obviously when you are dealing with property, especially when in the City of Naples, and the, um, um, the wealth that is here, the number usually does go up. So the Chief was not making up numbers, the numbers just weren’t amended like they were supposed to be by the Battalion Chiefs. VLS: Okay. Um, when you were preparing the reports for the Chief, did you, um, analyze, um, the number of fire calls, um, going back for a period of time? BOWLING: I did. I went back, I believe 14 years. VLS: Okay, so, 2005? BOWLING: I believe so. 2005 or 2006. - 38 - VLS: Okay. Um, was there any trends that you could observe in the number of fire calls, um, during that 14 year period? BOWLING: If I recall correctly, the property damage, property loss those numbers went up, but, um, actual from especially I believe during last 5 years response times improved I believe, um, number of fires, well not number of fires. Damage. Because response times improved, damage went down. I attribute the property values those going up just inflation. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: Property values go up. VLS: Okay. Uh, do you know, um, during that 14 year period, um, there was any increase in the number of fire calls. In other words, incidents that were, um, coded as fires? BOWLING: I believe they went up and there, there was such a trend going up and when I talked to the Chief about that, he stated to me, it was, um, due to previous whether previous Fire Chief, previous the way they gathered data it was not coded correctly. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So the trend went up, but it is not, you, you couldn’t specifically say there were more fires, it just was not coded correctly. VLS: Okay. So, um, suggesting that, uh, previously incidents should have been coded as fires, but were not. BOWLING: Were not. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And if I am not mistaken that was coding across the board. Not just fires, but vehicle accidents, rescue calls. If it was not coded correctly, information is skewered. VLS: Okay did the Chief indicate to you that, um, he changed or, uh, attempted to BOWLING: Attempted to code correctly. VLS: Okay, yes. Alright. Um, to your knowledge has the Chief made any misrepresentations or exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity. BOWLING: No. - 39 - VLS: Okay. Uh, do you know whether the Fire Chief has ordered directly or through the chain of command, if he has altered, um, or changed the instructions on when, um, Fire Department personnel are to, um, dispatch, call into dispatch when a fire is out? BOWLING: I do not know that. VLS: Okay. Anything else that you think is relevant to the 2nd point? BOWLING: My, um, I, I guess the biggest thing that stands out, was the Chief advising the Battalion Chiefs to be more diligent, report, uh, reviewing the reports, and making sure items were coded correctly. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And to stop because I, I was, um, privy to, uh, there’s, um, there’s um, I don’t know if he is a Firefighter, but I know he works for Collier County EMS, and he’s, um, a guru with Image Trend, the RMS system that we use, and the Chief has been trying to get me set up with him so he can show me the ends and outs of this software because Chief Nichols never seems to be available to do it. And, I have not yet met with him, but this gentleman, I can’t think of his name off the top of my head, but he had, um, I was copied in on the e-mail that the Chief had sent to him about that. Introducing me, Tina Bowling, she is Fire Inspector, she, she does analysis. I want her to run reports, Image Trend that was in the e-mail, so he was basically introducing me to this gentleman and about making sure that data, that incident reports are correct, that they are being reviewed correctly, and how to go about that process and this gentleman replied back and he replied all so I got the e-mail and that is when he had advised the Chief when he was reviewing reports for the Chief, and how to best train me on gathering this data. He noticed where, um, that is where firefighters and I know at least one Lieutenant had gone in and just copied CAD notes, and put them in the report. And he had shown an example, I don’t know if he printed up and scanned in the actual report or he took a snap shot of his screen to show that it was done. So that’s how I knew they were copying and pasting, because he provided, he copied me in on the email and he provided that actual data to the Chief. VLS: Okay. Do you have, um, would you be able to pull that e-mail for me? BOWLING: Yes. VLS: Would you do that. BOWLING: Yes. VLS: Okay. Um, were you, um, involved in any meetings between the Chief where, uh, the Battalion Chiefs were present? Did you attend any staff meetings? BOWLING: No. VLS: Okay. - 40 - BOWLING: No. VLS: Did you attend any staff meetings? BOWLING: No. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: No. There would be some occasions where we are all just standing there, and then the Chief would say, BC Nichols could you pull this data because I am going to have Tina make charts, something like that, but never, there was not a staff meeting that I was involved in. VLS: Okay. Is there any administrative staff at the Naples Fire Rescue Department that is available to assist you with any of your tasks? BOWLING: No, because the administrative, the secretary, um, has very limited computer knowledge, that’s why she doesn’t write don’t do any reports. She does not gather data I don’t even know if she writes to many memos. The Chief writes his own. Um, she has been there I think 30 years and is, and has not kept up with technology so basically e-mail is about what she can do. VLS: Okay. And what is the name of the administrative assistant? BOWLING: Cathy Carrington. VLS: Okay. Alright, anything that you believe is relevant to this 2nd point in the Union’s letter of October 21? BOWLING: No. VLS: Alright, the 3rd point in the Union’s letter is that the Chief’s misrepresentation, exaggeration and outright mendacity have created a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire rescue personnel, as a result the Chief has lost the ability to effectively lead the City’s firefighters. Do you have any information relevant to that allegation? BOWLING: I do. VLS: What is that? BOWLING: There seem to be very good relationship within the Department. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: Um, I had a great rapport with the Firefighters being in Fire Prevention, scheduling, um, tours, uh, um, education, things of that nature, I worked with the Police Department and the Fire Department every year through the Summer there’s a Youth Academy, um, so I worked with two Firefighters, one Lieutenant and another Firefighter Driver/Engineer, us three represented the Fire Department and worked closely, - 41 - because I have a good relationship with the Police Department since I worked there. So, um, that went well. The cohesion between Fire Prevention and operations, except for just my issues with BC Nichols, um, I have not had any issues with operations. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: Until, um, Battalion Chief Pennington was hired. VLS: Okay, what changed with Battalion Chief Pennington was hired? BOWLING: Complete animosity on the operations side because, um, they would verbally tell me when I would be out whether it be apparatus display or I’m bringing down supplies down to each Station, they, um, they were very angry that they hired outside the Department for that position. VLS: Okay, and how was that, how did you reach that opinion? BOWLING: Because they outright just said that he should have hired from within, um, I had VLS: And this came from, from whom? BOWLING: Various VLS: Those comments? BOWLING: Various Firefighters. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: When I would be at the Fire Stations whether it were out at an Elementary School, or um, bringing supplies to them, they would make comments, and I said, and the Chief had put out, when he had picked who he picked, he had put out a memo advising who he picked for the position, and basically put Battalion Chief Pennington’s Resume, his whole history on there. Why he was the qualified person? And he was the most qualified and I would make those comments. Well, you have to pick the most qualified person. And they felt and some Firefighters would just come out and say to me, he needs to pick within the Department, um, because we have been here, or this person has been here 20 years, they should have gotten the position, but that person did not have a college education, college degree and I think that is part of the requirement, um, they did not have the training history. Basically they were not qualified for the position, and I would get comments like well I have been here 20 years. Well that person’s been her 17 years, they are entitled to that position. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: Um, and I do know that prior right around that time of either right prior to Chief Pennington being hired or right after. I went on a apparatus display to the Naples - 42 - High School. They, they actually have a daycare in there. So, it was for the daycare. Kids, and when I went out there, one of my fellow Fire Inspectors she was with me because there were going to be so many kids that I asked her to go help, and prior to the kids coming out and us you know waiting for the, the teacher to bring all the kids out, the Lieutenant on duty that day had said to me, oh, I had started out my career here at City, the City Naples as a Fire Inspector. I, I did not know that so I said. Oh wow that is pretty cool, and, and now you have worked your way up, you’re a Lieutenant. And he said, yeah, you know I wanted to be a Fire Inspector, I took the classes, I put myself through and then he got hired on with the City, and um, he wanted to be a Fire Marshal, Fire Investigator so he took the classes and years ago, the previous Fire Chief had told him one day you are going to be Fire Marshal. And he had told me this, and I, I said that’s great, and I mean he is a young guy, looks like he is in his 30s to me, and he is a Lieutenant, and I said you oughta, and he told me that he really liked it, he likes the investigative side. He really didn’t like so much doing inspections, but he liked the investigative side, and, um, and he should have been Fire Marshal as opposed to Fire Marshal Rogers. He should. And I said you are in operations, I said the Fire Marshal position is a civilian position. And he said I was promised by the previous Chief, that I was going to be the Fire Marshal. I should have got it, and Chief McInerny hired outside for that position. Just like he is always doing. And I said, the Fire Marshal Rogers was Fire Inspector with the City, I think he has been with the City, as a City employee maybe 8 years. He started out on beach patrol. He did that briefly, but he was retired Firefighter from Maine. Firefighter/Paramedic so he moved down here and Chief McInerny and Chief McInerny asked him if he would be interested in being a Fire Inspector, so he became a Fire Inspector. So I said so he actually did not hire outside the Department, he hired someone in Fire Prevention as the Fire Marshal to oversee Fire Marshal. He has been in that capacity I don’t know 6-8 years. And I said besides that it is a civilian position. I said you are willing, if you were even considered, you are willing to become a civilian you lose all of your bargaining rights, you’re out of the Union, you don’t get a pension per se the drop program VLS: Yes. BOWLING: That’s only for sworn personnel. That’s for Firefighters and Police Officers, and I said then you work at the pleasure of the Chief. So, you are not even guaranteed anything. I said why would you want to do that to your career, you made it to Lieutenant, with your career and then when you retire from operations. Get a desk job. Why would you want a desk job now? And he said I was promised that position, and, um, Chief McInerny, and I was qualified because I used to be an inspector here. You have not done inspections in how long 10 years things change. I said, but, its, it’s not a, it’s a civilian position and he said he needs to make it a sworn position again and put me in that position, but he put his friend in that position. So he was angry. VLS: Okay, who was that? BOWLING: Lieutenant Zunzunegui. VLS: Okay. - 43 - BOWLING: So he was quite angry about that, and I said, the last Fire Marshal, Fire Marshal Bocchi that was a civilian position. The City Manager long before Chief McInerny got here made that a civilian position. The City Manager would have to make that a sworn position, and I said that I have been in public safety many years, used to be a cop, um, I don’t ever see them making a sworn position, a civilian position, and then making it a sworn position again. I said I have never seen that happened and that was Chief McInerny’s decision. That was the City Manager long before you got here, so your anger with Chief McInerny, and then you anger with the Fire Marshal Rogers because he got that position. I said, I said I think your anger is misdirected. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And he did not like that. I talked in this tone and I said that you should be proud that you made it. You are moving up the ladder in operations. Why would you want to sit at a desk and become a civilian in your 30s. And lose that. Why would you want to spend the rest of your carrier at a desk. How many fires? I said this is not Detroit, we are not having 35 fires a night that is arson. So, a lot of your stuff is going to be sitting at a desk. VLS: Um, um. BOWLING: So I said but that it is a sworn, it’s a, it’s a civilian position and you are not a civilian. And I said that is not Chief McInerny’s decision, so I said but I guess if you were willing to become a civilian you should have told him that. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: But, he, he specifically stated to me that it should be made a sworn position again and he was told by Chief McAvoy, I think that was the previous Chief, that he would get that position, it was guaranteed to him. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So there was animosity. VLS: Alright. BOWLING: And then when it comes to Battalion Chief Pennington being brought and then it was complete anger by some Firefighters. Not all, but some. VLS: Okay. Um, before, I want to explore that with you how that was demonstrated, but before I do that were you involved the decision that the Chief made to hire Pennington? BOWLING: No. VLS: Okay, is that something he discussed his decision with you in advanced. - 44 - BOWLING: No. VLS: Do you know when he made the decision to hire Chief Phil Pennington? BOWLING: When he put out the memo to the Department wide. VLS: Okay. You think that is when the decision was made? BOWLING: That’s when the Department, and I included, learned about it. VLS: Learned about it. VLS: Okay. Um, so tell me about these what you described as an angry reaction from some of the Firefighters once Pennington was selected? BOWLING: They felt they were angry because Chief hired outside the Department, um, I started getting complete cold shoulder from 2 of the Battalion Chiefs, and then some Firefighters including the Union President, Nadelman. VLS: Okay. Um, you said that you began getting cold shoulder from 2 of the Battalion Chiefs? BOWLING: Chief Nichols which it got worse and, uh, Pete DiMaria. VLS: Okay. And how, describe what examples of how you believe you were given the cold shoulder by them after Pennington was selected? BOWLING: They would walk by and not even, at, uh, prior, um, Mike Nichols as always been kinda rude to people. So you walk by and say hi and he won’t even make eye contact with you. Pete has always been very friendly, and approachable, and he would walk by and not say anything, and then it started really being noticeable, um, the Firefighters I was getting cold shoulder from them when I had, I had worked up a great rapport with them. They did not like how close I was working with the Chief with the stats. Um, with the analysis and then when Phil was hired, when I would have scheduled events that the Firefighters had to go to apparatus displays, um, education things, at the last minute, it, it would happen, um, with BC Nichols and DiMaria at the last minute saying out of the floor before the event, we’re sorry, we can’t make it. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And then I would be left having to call in and make an excuse. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: Um. VLS: And you, you do relate that change in attitude to dissatisfaction with the Chief’s selection, Phil Pennington? - 45 - BOWLING: Yes. Prior to, um, Phil being hired, a year ago, in, in 2014, the Police Department, a few officers had borrowed our safety house, it’s a big trailer, had borrowed the Fire Department’s safety house. I still worked for the Police Department, so I was not involved in that part. I knew they were doing it. They had borrowed the trailer because they wanted to set it up for Halloween event down on 5th and make it a Haunted House. So, um, they did that. Well, they were going it again this year, it was a great success, so they were doing it again this year. So two of the officers, um, came to me and said we have to work that event as officers. So we can’t, they are really cutting back, apparently whether, I don’t know if it comes from the City Manager or City council, Whatever. There was a big, um, decision about too much overtime, really watching overtime between the Fire and Police Departments. So these two officers said that we cannot work in the trailer, so would you like to do with the Fire Department like to do it or we are going to tell 5th Avenue business district that it has to be cancelled, that we are not going to participate. And I said absolutely we would do it. So I went to the Fire Marshal because he is my direct supervisor, asked him if it was okay to that and he said he thought it would be fine, but he would check with Chief McInerny. He checked with Chief McInerny and he was all for it. The Community, Fire Department involved the Community because I had noticed so I have been here. I even noticed it on the Police side, but the Fire Department is not really involved in the Community at all. So I thought it would help promote, and put the Fire Department in the Community. So I went to, went to the Firefighters that I worked with through the Youth Academy, they were great and that we have a great rapport and I said would you two, you’re great with kids, they do events with the Boys Scouts and everything, and I said would you two help me do this. Absolutely, we are on board. Definitely, we will do it. So, that was great. So then the officers came back to me probably a week later and said that they worked something out in their Department, and they can help again, but could we all do it as a joint effort, and, and, because they did also bring up the fact that the Fire Department does nothing with the Community. And I said yes. I would really like that, so it was supposed to be a joint effort and I knew that it was on a Saturday, I could not go to the actual event, but I was involved in getting the decorations, helping, we were all going to do a joint effort of decorating this trailer and getting it ready, getting it out here, getting out to the Police and Fire Department to get it decorated, everything set up. So, of course, after Phil’s hire, we can’t help you. One Firefighter was his Kelly day, and he is going to be out of town. The other Firefighter he’s on duty, he cannot change his shift. So, they are not going to help. So, it just left me, nobody else in the Fire Department would help me. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So, I did that. Um, when it came time to get the safety trailer here, it’s huge, it has to be pulled by the dualie, and it takes several people to even get it hooked up. Well the Fire Marshal had a scheduled vacation during that time so he wasn’t going to be here. I kept asking him, please, please, please get with Chief Nichols, it’s on his day, his shift, when we need it delivered from the Training Center down to headquarters and he several times the Fire Marshal went to Chief Nichols, you are going to do it, you are going to do it, going to get your guys to do it. You are going to get someone to help Tina get it here. She will get it decorated with some help but you will get it here. Yes. - 46 - Yep, yep we will do it. The day came, nope. Alright I’ll get it there by noon, noon comes, nope it is not here. I get off at 4, the two officers that were helping were getting off at 4, 4:30 and they couldn’t help, nobody could do it, this was a Wednesday, needed to be done and delivered by Friday night, or Saturday to downtown. So we had to have it done by Friday. I called the Fire Marshal in Maine on vacation they still have not brought the trailer. I could not find BC Nichols all day, did not see him. So, I finally the cops were getting on me you’re, you’re Fire Department is making the Police Department look bad. If you people want to look bad, go ahead, but you are not going to make the Police Department look bad. We’ll go get it and hook it up to our truck and go get it. So, I went to Chief McInerny, explained the situation and I said I don’t know who is supposed to bring the trailer, but I have not seen Chief Nichols. I don’t know. I said please can the Police officers go get it, use our dualie, because they were going to use theirs and they needed to pull their police boat, so then the, the Fire Prevention dualie was the only one left. And I said can they drive our vehicle, and the Chief said, I said I don’t know where BC Nichols, I saw him at 8:00 o’clock this morning. I haven’t seen him since. He said, well he has been in meetings all day in the County, but he told me he had assigned somebody to do it, and by now it’s like 1:30, so, um, I said okay they are going to drive our vehicle, so I went and got the cops, and let them in the training center, and while we are hooking it up, the Chief said I will find out who was supposed to get it and didn’t bring it. So apparently, he contacted Chief Nichols, and Chief Nichols contacted that person. So while we were there hooking it up, one of the Firefighters came and he shows up and we were having troubles hooking it up because the police officers did not know how to hook it up VLS: Yes. BOWLING: So we were having trouble. Um, this Firefighter, um, Adamsky, is the one who showed up. He said Tina I, I was told to deliver this. I have been trying to find you all day. I didn’t know where to deliver it to. And I looked at him and I said, you can call my desk, you can call my cell phone, it’s listed. You can call the secretary. You can call the Battalion Chief, there was an e-mail that went out to numerous people and I said don’t worry the cops got it. I can count on them. And he goes, okay, and he left. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So, then when it came to the day to get it taken downtown, um, I believe Chief McInerny called Fire Marshal and said you need to cut your vacation short. You need to get back here and you need to make sure you get on the earliest flight that you can and get back here and you get that trailer delivered downtown for it. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So he did. Then, just this Thursday, this past Thursday, well prior to that then there was a scheduled, um, event at the Naples Yacht Club that they were supposed to do, um, marine safety and the flares, extinguishers. Everything that has to do with marine safety. We have a fire boat, the Naples Sailing Yacht Club let us have a slip there. They also let the Police Department have a slip there. So, as a courtesy, - 47 - and this was scheduled months ahead of time, it was under Pete DiMaria’s shift, it was supposed to, I was going to go, going to take pictures to promote the Fire Department, I know nothing about boats, I know nothing about putting out a fire on a boat. I’m not a Firefighter. It was supposed to be done at 10:00, at 8:00 in the morning, uh, BC DiMaria tells me sorry we can’t make it. Our Firefighters, the one that was going to do it got off shift at 7 and everybody else is busy. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So, myself and the Fire Marshal had to go down there and listen to the very dissatisfied person, and they had all the people that were attending it, were sitting there, they came in. So that was another action. Huh, just this past Thursday, um, there was an apparatus display for one of the, um, day cares. And, due to hostilities that I have received from the Firefighters since Phil being hired, I advised the Fire Marshal why do I need to go to these when they are describing apparatus, how the apparatus works, their equipment. I don’t work on their trucks, I don’t know how the trucks work. I am going there to take pictures and promote it. But, that is all they do is bad mouth the Chief. They bad mouth the Department. They bad mouth the Fire Marshal, and I get all of this animosity. I’m not going to go to these apparatus displays, unless I am given an educational talk that has to do with Fire Prevention, I am not going to go. And he agreed. Fire Marshal said if these Firefighters do not know their own apparatus maybe they need more training. You need to go. I said I got, I am also the CPR instructor for the Department, so I said I got 100 other things that I gotta do, I’m going out there to try to promote them and that is all I get is grief from there since Phil’s been here. VLS: And there was a distinct difference in relationships, your relationship with the Firefighter’s prior to Pennington’s arrival? BOWLING: Complete. So, VLS: You told the Chief this. BOWLING: Yes. VLS: Okay and what was the Chief’s response been? BOWLING: He said continue to do what you do, continue to acknowledge them, continue to do what you do, don’t lower yourself to them. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So, um, and I obviously let the Fire Marshal know and so this past Thursday morning this apparatus display was due. Fire Marshal is not in town, I was not going to go. Chief Nichols came to me and said at quarter to 9 it was scheduled at 9 are you going to go? I wasn’t going to unless there is something else going on besides the apparatus display, I don’t feel the need that I need to go. He said that they need you there. Okay, well my boss is not here to tell me not to go so I went and I was - 48 - going to take pictures. So one of the Firefighters that I had worked with at the Youth Academy that I had, had a great rapport with, was on the truck he was Driver/Engineer so you know he said hello to me and, and it was a little cold, but he said hello. Very happy to see him and we have a new employee and new inspector so I introduced. I brought him along and introduced him. And, um, so this Firefighter said to me you are doing the talk, you are going to discuss this. I said don’t you think that, um, you should be talking about your apparatus and what you do in your equipment, and I don’t. And he said you are Fire Prevention, you’re public education, you are Fire Prevention, you are doing the talk. VLS: Who was that Driver/Engineer? BOWLING: Billy Warren, William Warren. VLS: And that is what happened? BOWLING: So all of the kids came out. So, I gave a basic talk on, um, they were 2 or 3 years old, some were 4, I mean you really can’t go into detail so I asked them if they knew how to call 911, you know, there’s a fire in your office, get out. Do you have fire drills at your house with your family, if there is a fire go outside go to your mailbox don’t go back into the house, just stuff like that. Brief, and then when I was done, I said the Firefighters are going to explain their truck to you and what they do. So Billie said, okay, um, okay now that the boring useless talk that was just given is done. I will explain the truck to you. So, we did the kids in separate groups, so when the second group came out I had to give the talk again, and same thing. I even assisted them with getting the kids on the truck, um, letting them in the truck, you know, passing out goodies and stuff like that, I was really involved and back to the Halloween thing, I’m Chick-Fil-A at the mall approached me during Fire Prevention day at the mall which is of course was in October. This was after Phil was hired. I got no help for Fire Prevention day. Besides, just us Fire Inspectors so the Firefighters they had their apparatus outside, never came in once. It was total disassociation. So, the, the owner from Chick-Fil-A had approached us there and that was where it was held and said that he wanted to do some donating time, money, things like that to the Fire Department because he is like I have been walking around and I have been to different Fire Prevention days and this is horrible. I said I know it’s terrible. The first one that I had done with the Department and I said I have never been to one, but it’s horrible, so, um, he said that he would get with me about helping raise money for the Fire Department to be able to buy things, equipment, and whether it is Fire Prevention or operations, so when it came time for the Halloween, one of the Honda trailer, one of the things, that the um, the 5th Ave Business District sent was last year, um, there was no sign saying there was a haunted trailer or anything like that. It was the first year so she had asked, um, I went to the meeting with the 5th Avenue Business District along with the police officers, I was the only person representing the Fire Department to go. So, she had asked if we could do a banner so everybody knew it was there, and I said, and it obviously was going to cost money, so I said, um, Chick-Fil-A wants to help donate to the Fire Department, I said let me check with them and see if they would donate the banner. I went to Chick-Fil-A and he was like absolutely we will pay for everything. So, I tried to - 49 - get people within the Fire Department to help me design the banner, nobody would help me. Nobody would give input. Nobody cared. So, I designed it with the logo of the Police Department, Fire Department and Chick-Fil-A’s logo. So, I did that. I also so Chick-Fil-A had come up with an idea to me because I had said you know the Fire Department is, um, has no revenue. The, the operations side they can’t charge for false alarms, they go, lot’s assuming false alarms it is a burden to the Fire Department. Police Department charges after so many false alarms and it has continued to be false and they don’t correct the problem, Police Department charges them. We don’t charge for inspections. So Fire Prevention has no revenue whatsoever, zero, we do crowd manager training, surrounding jurisdictions charge $30 dollars a head, zero, it is a free charge for us. We do not charge for fire extinguisher training. Every other jurisdiction charges. Everything we do is free to these day cares, free, fire drills that I go to these doctor’s offices, and to the hospital free. So, Chick-Fil-A had said we put out a calendar every year. If the Fire Department would like to take some and help sell them we will give 50% of the proceeds back to the Fire Department. So, um, I got the 50 calendars, nobody would help. Nobody in the Fire Department wouldn’t buy them. VLS: What do you, do you feel that, do you believe that the animosity is coming towards you because you’re associated with the Chief, or that it’s just general sort of a slowdown reaction for lack of enthusiasms since the Chief, uh, hired Pennington? BOWLING: Both. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: Um, I definitely support the Chief, and when, um, the Firefighters have complained, I would make the comment you didn’t complain when he got you that fire boat. You loved him for a day. You did not complain when he got you that Rescue 1. You loved him for that day. And then you don’t like him anymore. So when he gets you something you like him, um, so because I have not had animosity towards the Chief, and have not jumped on that bandwagon because they are angry about that he hired outside, now they have animosity towards me. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: Um, on the other hand, also, I feel like all of this is purposeful. They are making the Fire Department, they, let me correct that. They’re trying to make the Chief look bad, when, in fact, they are making the whole Fire Department look bad. VLS: Now, are you saying this about the Union as an entity or BOWLING: All of Fire operations VLS: All of Fire operations including, uh, in some instances, the Battalion Chief? BOWLING: Yes. VLS: Okay. - 50 - BOWLING: Yes, um, the only Battalion Chief that in the majority of his shift that have, um, continued to be very active in helping me with these events is, uh, Battalion Chief Brunner, Tim Brunner. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: His staff, um, the majority of his staff, I think they follow by his example are still, I think they are almost torn because they are hearing from one end of totally ruin this or make it look bad and everybody has to be on the same page. Because it started, some of the Firefighters started to sway back and were friendly to me and would talk to me, and other persons and Fire Prevention would help out in a situation and then that would last like a day, and then, oop. Okay, sorry. So, I can’t talk to you, but Chief Brunner I have not felt that from him. Um, or um, several of his staff on his shift. When I got, um, these calendars, not one of them, they all go eat at Chick-Fil-A, and Chick-FilA gave me a stack of free cards back in October, um, of free food, and I went and passed them out to all the Stations, um, and divee up evenly and they were all for that, and um, they said, um, and I said, um, well now I have these calendars. So I brought the calendar issue up to Billy Warren on Thursday. After the whole event, even though he was rude to me, I brought it up and I said you know I have these calendars that I am trying to raise money for the Department, um, and a nice term he was a complete jerk to me. Complete jerk. The Lieutenant that was on the truck, when I was explaining that, you know, we don’t get money for inspections VLS: Um, um, BOWLING: He didn’t know that. He goes Fire Prevention does not get any money. I said nothing, I said we get nothing. So, I was explaining that to him and Billy Warren said you know what Tina, you know I would like to help you, what does the Chief do for us? If I help you, um, and then he goes what is City council do for us. So, if we raise money in to help buy equipment then they’re never going to give, um, us money. Maybe he is right, but in the history of the Fire Department, since 1945, um, they have never charged for fire alarms. They have never charged for inspections. I don’t think selling some calendars to try to raise money to help some way to fix, duh, duh, duh, the trailer. The, duh, duh, safety trailer. Um, maybe buy the Firefighters some equipment. So then, I, I said I don’t see them having, the Chief has no control over that. I said when I started working here, the, I talked to the Chief and he agreed that we should be, the Fire Department should be able to charge for this. You would have to be in ordinance change. It would have to go through City council. So I did a study on what other Departments across the nation and the surrounding what they charge for fire inspections, what they charge for re-inspections, what they charge for alarms, what they charge for extinguisher training and all of this and provided it to the Chief. The Chief again tried to bring it to City manager, City council. They would not even hear it. So I told that to Billy Warren. I said the Chief is on board, why are you blaming the Chief? It’s beyond his control. He can suggest it. He can’t’ make it happen. The Chief can’t write City ordinances. It has never been done and until City council, City mayor, get onboard with it, it is never going to happen. So why are you blaming him, and, and he said you know I would try to help you, but okay, so, so then City council is never going - 51 - to approve charging for alarms. If we shut everything down and don't do stuff then maybe they will come around. That was my answer right there. That is what he is doing. But he had so much, just the way he was talking to me, it was like, like just so demeaning. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So demeaning, and he goes I am not going to help you. Nobody is going to help you. And, and, just the history of not helping the Fire Department, not helping the Community, a couple of years ago when I worked for the, the Police Department, when, when one of the Firefighters got in an accident, um, on 4th of July with his family, him and his wife, seriously, seriously hurt. She was 8 months pregnant, and she lost her baby. Their two children, little kids in the back got hurt. Everybody goes to the hospital. So, um, to raise money for them for medical bills, he was out of, that Firefighter was, and it was the same Firefighter that, that finally got back to work and he was supposed to deliver the trailer, but didn’t. Um, Nadelman who is the Union President, he went to the Police Union President and said hey would you do a fundraiser to raise money for him, to help the Department raise money. So, the Union President of the Police Department organized this whole fundraiser for the day, football game between Firefighters and Police Officers, got all of the vendors, raised all the money, paid for everything. So the Police Union paid for everything, set everything up, did everything, and then all the proceeds collected were given to Nadelman, and not even a thank you. Prior to that, and I am sure VLS: When, when was that? BOWLING: In 2013. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So, July 2013 was when the accident was. Um, the Police Chief was out there. Um, it was the Police Department did everything. Firefighters did nothing but showed up for the football game and collected the donations. Um, prior years before I got here, um, uh, Pete DiMaria had an ill child, I think he passed away. Um, and he needed money raised. Nadelman again went to the Police Union and the Police Union President was on the phone collecting money, raising money, they did like a 20, he was on like 24 hours, raising all kinds of money for Pete and helping the Fire Department, and the Fire Department just went to them for the help but did nothing. And I, there’s just VLS: And what you attribute that to, that is pre BOWLING: That’s VLS: That pre-hire of Pennington? BOWLING: That’s, that’s I believe that part is even pre-Chief McInerny. The Fire Department just does nothing involved in the Community. They never have. So to say - 52 - that they have this sudden, um that it is Chief McInerny’s, everything is his fault, they have never done anything for the Community. VLS: I see what you are saying, okay. BOWLING: Long before Chief McInerny. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So that, that was my whole point on that. They’ve, they’ve had no involvement with the Community. Another instance was, um, I received an e-mail from Firefighter Kofsky asking me when the, um, Naples parade was, the Christmas parade, because every year he decorates the ladder truck, and he wanted to know when it was. So, I got the information from the Fire Marshal, I gave that information to Kofsky, and then Pennington was hired, and now all of a sudden, Kofsky said, um, I am going out of town. I won’t be around. I am not doing the fire truck, we are not decorating it. VLS: I guess that is very recent. BOWLING: Very, yep. It was for the Christmas parade. VLS: Okay. Okay. BOWLING: It is always last minute and then we are left scrambling. And since I set all this stuff up, it’s the businesses that come to me, you said that you had us scheduled, it was done. How come you are not doing it, and so, it looks like, it falls on Fire Prevention which is the, um, I think the intent. VLS: Okay. Is Fire Prevention viewed as being, um, closer to the Chief? BOWLING: Yes, because we are under the Fire Marshal, and since some, since a Firefighter was not made Fire Marshal, um, there has been complete animosity, the Battalion Chiefs have complete animosity towards the Fire Marshal. VLS: Okay BOWLING: And therefore those of us in Fire Prevention. VLS: I see. Um, BOWLING: In the previous training, Battalion Chief, left because he was hired outside the Department and he got nothing but grief. VLS: What was the name of the previous Battalion Chief? BOWLING: Bill Moyer. VLS: Okay. - 53 - BOWLING: And he finally left this year. That is why Phil was hired. Because the Battalion Chiefs totally cut him out of everything, and the Firefighters made it difficult for him, he would try to train them, and he basically got tired of it, and left. VLS: When did, uh, a Training Battalion Chief Pennington come on board? BOWLING: I believe, September. VLS: Okay, and do you, um, have any interaction with him? BOWLING: I don’t. He comes in the office, so he walks by very, um, the Chief introduced him on his first day, uh, very approachable, um, very pleasant, and he comes in and always passes through Fire Prevention, he could walk around to get to his office every morning comes in and says hello, how you doing? Um, he came to me once with an Excel question on helping him on a spreadsheet, and I went in and helped him. He seems very approachable. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: Very nice. VLS: And do you know, uh, how his interaction has gone with, that, that have observed with, um, operations? BOWLING: I don’t see that at all. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: Because when they are down at the training center, um, in, I don’t see it in the office. VLS: Okay. Anything else on the 3rd point we haven’t discussed about, um, Chief’s mis… BOWLING: The lack of trust VLS: Yes. BOWLING: Um, I, I just don’t, nothing further, I, I don’t agree with it. VLS: Okay. Do you, um, believe the Chief has misrepresented, exaggerated, or lied? BOWLING: No. VLS: Okay. Let’s go to the 4th point. Um, that the Chief has attempted to influence and otherwise cause the Union to undermine some City objectives. Do you have any information in that pertains to that allegation? BOWLING: Only if they gave examples. - 54 - VLS: Okay. Alright. Um, do you become involved at all with, um, the Chief’s communications with City council? BOWLING: When the, when City council, or certain City council members send out emails and they include, uh, a member of the Community, he goes to City council that has the ear of City council members and say what about this data, what about this data, how come we are not gathering this data. The Chief will send me that so that I gather the data and he will put in the e-mail that they are raising questions on these points and this is the data I would like. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: Could you, um, research and get me that data. VLS: And you do that. BOWLING: I do, do that. VLS: Okay. And is there a particular person in the Community that is the source of those communications? BOWLING: Marvin Eastman. VLS: Okay. Have you ever met Mr. Eastman? BOWLING: No. VLS: Alright. Um, are you involved in writing a response to Mr. Eastman, or do you simply provide the data to the Chief? BOWLING: I simply provide the data. VLS: Okay. And what type of data have you gathered in response to the Chief sending you communications from Marvin Eastman? BOWLING: Everything that the consulting group asked for is because Marvin Eastman went to City council asking those questions, run times, how long does it take the Firefighters, um, to respond, um, um, time on calls. All that information. VLS: Okay. And the data you have, um, pulled to prepare those communications for the Chief, or for the Chief to prepare the communications, that data came from CAD? BOWLING: It came from CAD. It came from the RMS system. Um, a lot of times, Marvin Eastman from what I understood he would do a records request and he would go directly to dispatch, and then dispatch would automatically provide that data, but it was, the data was so raw, and like we said before and discussed, and not asking the data the correct questions, so the information would be skewed. So, then when the Chief would provide the data, that is when the data would be different because Marvin - 55 - Eastman would ask for a records, do a records request, but he would just ask for this one thing. He would not ask for a complete picture, and Marvin Eastman, um, has continually, through a City council member, would say there has only been this many fires, um, in the City, when you can clearly, clearly, access the data. In it’s so far more than what they would like to show or what they have been showing. VLS: Okay. And you know it is more because the NFIRS data shows there are more fires than that? BOWLING: Yes. In what is considered a fire? Because a lot of times, um, as we explained, it is specific. A fire is a fire is a fire across the nation. And then you have someone Marvin Eastman who has no fire background and does not understand how the information is gathered, how it is recorded, he’s, he’s to me, if you don’t ask for the correct data, you are not getting the correct information. VLS: Okay. Um, understanding that my, um, charge is to conduct an inquiry or investigation into the allegations raised in the October 21, 2015 letter, which you are apparently seeing for the first time today is there anything additional, um, that you want to share with me? BOWLING: Just, definitely that I have notice a huge change since, um, Pennington was hired. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: In, in attitude, animosity, but, uh, but I do have to say the Chief’s demeanor, the Fire Chief McInerny’s demeanor, attitude, um, has not changed one bit. He does not show animosity, he does not show hostility in the office, he has an open door policy, um, and I think that bothers on the operations side too along with secretary that if I have a question on information that I am gathering for the Chief, he, I mean, from the day I started, he said that he had an open door policy. Fire Marshal said he has an open door policy. The Chief said if you ever had a question or concern you come in and talk to me, and I do. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And he has never said I am too busy. He has never said, I, you need to ask the Fire Marshal this before you can ask me that, because usually if I go to the Fire Chief and not the Fire Marshal it is because it has to do with the data that I am gathering and it has nothing to do with Fire Prevention or um my duties as an Inspector. And the Fire Marshal knows that. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: So, he is purvey, the Fire Marshal is copied in on everything e-mail, and the Chief gives me a task, he does it in writing, and always copies the Fire Marshal, so the Fire Marshal knows what duties I am doing for the day. - 56 - VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And if I communicate with the Chief, I always copy the Fire Marshal. VLS: Okay. Okay. Because he is your direct BOWLING: He is my direct supervisor following chain of command. Which I always do. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: And, and there has been issue in the past especially with BC Nichols who circumvents and totally walks right past Fire Marshal and come back to tell me to do something, or question data that I am asking for, and it will always be why do you need to see that, and after months and months of him doing that recently just because of all of this animosity going on, um, he came to me and said that, so I said you know what good question. Let’s go talk to the Chief. So I got up, and said the Chief is in his office, let’s go ask him why he wants me to gather that. No, no, no, that’s alright. But, I still went, and I went in and said excuse me Chief BC Nichols wants to know why you are asking me questions and gather data. And from that moment on, uh, BC Nichols has never done that again. VLS: Okay. Okay. Anything else? BOWLING: Nope. VLS: Okay. I’m I did ask you for some items, I don’t know if you remember what I asked you for, but, um, I will, um, if I don’t receive them from you, I will follow up with you to remind you. BOWLING: Sent e-mail. VLS: You can send to that e-mail, this protected e-mail which is not to suggest that anything you send to me won’t ultimately become public record, but during the course of this inquiry or investigation, um, what you send to me will, will, you know, be essentially protected. BOWLING: Okay. VLS: And, I, um, I am clearly not finished with this yet, and I may need to circle back and ask you some additional questions, perhaps about documents you provided. BOWLING: Okay. VLS: Um, likewise if you think of something else you want to tell me or something else has happened you think is pertinent to what you understand I am to do feel free to contact me at that number or e-mail. - 57 - BOWLING: Okay. VLS: Okay. BOWLING: Okay, okay and the documentation, um, the, the information what the Chief sent out, that he hired Battalion Chief Pennington. VLS: Yes. BOWLING: That and VLS: Um, I know, I would have to look back. I have not taken a lot of notes because I am trying to digest what you are saying knowing that the interview is going to be captured and transcribed. So when I go back through the transcript I will remember, uh, perhaps better those items I asked you for, but the one thing is I am sitting here that I recall you telling me about is the documentation, um, uh, the chart, um, from the your attending the NFIRS training that showed the errors in the data from 2014, May 2014 to May 2015. I know there is some other things but as I sit here now I can’t recall what they are. BOWLING: Okay. VLS: So I will be back. Do you have a card? BOWLING: I do. VLS: And does that card contain the where do you prefer to receive your phone calls? Office or mobile? BOWLING: Probably the office to start because my mobile is also my personal cell phone. VLS: I don’t want to do that. And, then this e-mail address would also be appropriate to communicate with you. BOWLING: Yes. VLS: Okay I don’t have anything further. Thank you and just for the record is about 5 after 12 and we are concluding the interview of Tina Bowling. #2156147 - 58 - RECORDED INTERVIEW OF LT. DAVID HOWARD ON 12/03/15 VLS: Today is December 3, 2015, my name is Vicki Sproat I’m with the law firm of Henderson Franklin in Fort Myers and I have been retained by the City of Naples to conduct an inquiry or investigation into allegations of misconduct on the part of the Chief McInerny as alleged in a letter sent by Local 2174 to the City on October 21, 2015. Right now we are in a conference room in Human Resources at the City of Naples and with me is Lt. David Howard. And I’ve asked that he give an interview in connection with this inquiry. Lt. Howard do you understand that I am going to record this interview? LT. HOWARD: Yes Mam. VLS: Ok, and if were getting started with the interview, I would like to make just a few statements. First, City policy requires employees to be forth right, truthful and corporative in providing information in connection with an inquiry or investigation. Do you understand that? LT. HOWARD: Yes. VLS: City policy also states that retaliation against any employee for participating in an interview or in making a complaint involving alleged misconduct is prohibited. Do you understand that? LT. HOWARD: Yes. VLS: Also, if you feel that you have been retaliated in any way, because you participated in this process it is important that you let Human Resources know that. LT. HOWARD: Ok, understood. VLS: With that we will get started. And I just want to ask you a couple questions about yourself. Why don’t you start with your full name? LT. HOWARD: David V. Howard VLS: Ok, and how long have you worked for the Napes Fire Department? LT. HOWARD: I’ve been with the City of Naples since August 5, 1991. VLS: Ok, and describe for me your progression, you are now a Lieutenant. How did you- what was your position when you started? LT. HOWARD: Well, I was a firefighter, Charge EMT- a position they don’t have anymore…a Driver Engineer and a Lieutenant. VLS: Ok, and when were you promoted to Lieutenant? LT. HOWARD: I can tell you exactly- I believe it was in 06’. Let me see here. May 15, 2006. -1- VLS: Ok and what Battalion are you assigned? LT. HOWARD: I am on B-shift. VLS: Ok, and to what fire station are you assigned? LT. HOWARD: I am at Fire station 3. VLS: Is that the station at the Airport? LT. HOWARD: Yes Mam. VLS: Ok, and how long have you been on B-shift? LT. HOWARD: Years. VLS: Ok well how long have you been assigned to Station 3? LT. HOWARD: This month- sometime this month makes one year. VLS: Where were you before that? LT. HOWARD: I was at Station 1 for several, several years. VLS: OK, and have you applied for any promotions from Lieutenant? LT. HOWARD: No. VLS: Ok, so being on B-shift your immediate supervisor is whom? LT. HOWARD: Battalion Chief Nichols. VLS: Do you have any special assignments? Lieutenants? That are different from other LT. HOWARD: Well, pretty much every Lieutenant has a different ancillary duty. VLS: Ok, what is your ancillary duty? That is the right word. LT. HOWARD: To check reports for grammatical and omitted fields- just to make sure all the t’s are crossed and I’s are dotted. And look OK prior to sending them to the state. VLS: And these are the incident reports and an incident report is completed on every call that is made? LT. HOWARD: Correct. -2- VLS: And all are of those incident reports supposed to be coded according to the National to NIFRS? LT. HOWARD: Yeah, basically. I really don’t go into the coding or anything. VLS: Oh you don’t? LT. HOWARD: No. VLS: Ok, your job is primarily to check for omitted fields- misspellings? LT. HOWARD: It’s like a production line at a car factory. It can get a little mundane at times, just checking. VLS: Are there particular types of incident reports that you are assigned to check? LT. HOWARD: (illegible) I use to do it by myself for a while, and now Driver Engineer Steve Kofsky and I – we alternate months. He’s out on the last three months so- a tragedy in my family, so I asked him if he would do it. VLS: I’m sorry, ok. after that? After you do the checking of the incident reports, what happens LT. HOWARD: I just go through them and If I think they are all good and complete, I run a report and submit it to the state. VLS: Ok, does anybody check that report before you submit it to the state? And to whom at the state do you submit it? LT. HOWARD: Sometimes I just use a generic email address- I think its ffirs—I would have to look on my personal email. (Illegible) and then I know one woman by the name of Daphney Urk – I think? If you want a specific name – let me check here. Never mind. VLS: If you don’t have it that’s fine, that’s not critical if I need I can contact you. LT. HOWARD: Ok. VLS: Ok, and do you run any other reports on the incident reports- other than what is submitted to the state? LT. HOWARD: No. VLS: No internal reports? LT. HOWARD: No. VLS: Ok, what do you call the monthly reports that you submit to the State? -3- LT. HOWARD: I always just NIFRS, I’ll send it off to the state as our department number 64042- I’ll say “64042 January 2016”. And that’s the file name that I’ll create. VLS: Ok. So your Battalion Chief does not become involved in checking the monthly reports that you submit? LT. HOWARD: No. VLS: Ok, have you ever been asked to change any coding on any incident reports? LT. HOWARD: No. VLS: Ok, have you asked people whose incident reports to change coding? LT. HOWARD: I would say maybe here and there. If you catch a guy using “other” – there’s a very generic “other” field that if its- oh sounds to me like that’s a public service call you know, not public service “other”- or provide man power you picked somebody up. As far as changing the coding inside of the programVLS: No, I don’t mean changing the coding. I mean for instance; something that might be considered a hazardous condition change to structural fire or something like that. LT. HOWARD: Yeah, I understand what you’re saying, on a few occasions sure you know. But everyone is pretty much on board now a days and for a while there the word “other” was being used a lot and the word is out there that please use the most accurate. VLS: Ok, and who instructed you, if anyone in particular did to insure that something more specific is used other than “other”? LT. HOWARD: Chief Nichols. He’s been my supervisor for quite a while and he is very knowledgeable in that area- the programming and stuff you know? And between Steve, him, I and other people – all the Lieutenants sitting around in the station – hey guys just you know. (illegible) VLS: How long have you been involved in the coding process? LT. HOWARD: Checking reports? VLS: Checking reports- yes, I’m sorry. LT. HOWARD: Oh, man I would go back to – I remember when Battalion Chief Matt Reid left- which would be – honestly I couldn’t say an exact number but it’s been probably around the same time I got promoted maybe? If not earlier. VLS: Have there been any changes in the practices of the Naples Fire Department as far as coding certain fire hazards? That you are aware of? LT. HOWARD: Not that I know of- no. -4- VLS: Ok, I am going to get to the letter which is what I’ve been asked to inquire into and investigate. Are you a member of Local 2174? LT. HOWARD: Yes. VLS: Ok, and I am not going to ask you about whether you signed the letter- you are not an officer correct? LT. HOWARD: I am a Lieutenant. VLS: You’re a Lieutenant. But I mean, you are not an office of the union? LT. HOWARD: No, no mam. I was on duty that day when they had a meeting. VLS: Ok, so you weren’t even at the meeting? LT. HOWARD: No. VLS: Ok. Have you ever seen the letter before? LT. HOWARD: Yeah, I believe this was in an email correct? VLS: I don’t know. LT. HOWARD: I believe this was in an email from the City Manager to everybody. VLS: Ok. Alright. I am going to have you look at that letter and I simply want to go through- you’ll see there are 4 enumerated points and I’m going to ask you if you have any information that might be relevant. Support or refute the points that are listed. And let’s start with the first one; which is that “The Chief has misled the community and City staff. In particular, he has created the misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities.” Do you have any information that you think may be relevant to that point? LT. HOWARD: No. VLS: Ok. Alright second point; “The Department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity.” Do you have any information that might be relevant to that statement? LT. HOWARD: No. VLS: Okay. LT. HOWARD: I mean I don’t work directly under the Chief. VLS: I understand. Ok third point, next page, no same page- “The Chief’s misrepresentations, exaggerations and outright mendacity (which I’ve been told means lying) have created a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire-rescue -5- personnel. As a result, the Chief has lost the ability to effectively lead the City’s firefighters.” Do you have anything relevant concerning that statement? LT. HOWARD: No. VLS: Alright and the fourth statement; “The Chief has attempted to influence and otherwise cause the Union to undermine some City objectives.” Do you have any information relevant to that statement? LT. HOWARD: No, I don’t. VLS: Well, I think this is going to be a fairly quick interview then. You said that you’ve been assigned to the Airport for about a year? LT. HOWARD: Correct. VLS: Was there an incident that occurred this year at the Airport involving a fuel spill? LT. HOWARD: There’s been a couple of small ones, yeah. VLS: Ok, were you the commanding? LT. HOWARD: Incident command? VLS: Incident command on one of those fuel spills? LT. HOWARD: (illegible) VLS: Ok, do you recall when it occurred? LT. HOWARD: Well, there’s been a couple- I mean, one was actually- I’m trying to think of the duty officer called us after the fact and we just had to clean up the mess with them. One other incident would be – I don’t recall the exact month. VLS: Ok, was there- let me ask you this. Was there an incident that occurred at the Airport that you were asked to photograph? Or to be present for photograph? LT. HOWARD: Yes. VLS: Ok and um, were you the commanding officer asked toLT. HOWARD: I was on scene first and then the acting Battalion Chief was on scene became the commander. VLS: Ok and who was the acting Battalion Chief? LT. HOWARD: Dean (illegible) VLS: Ok. -6- LT. HOWARD: I remember that day because it was Kid Rock’s airplane. VLS: Ok, that was the airplane that was involved? LT. HOWARD: Yeah, I guess the pilot dropped him off in Fort Lauderdale and came over here and he topped off the plane with fuel and the spill was generated – here you go, now you’re triggering my thoughts. It had to be in the very warm summer months because this fuel was generated by expansion. He had put so much fuel Into the plane that the expansion and the relieve valves or whatever let the fuel spill onto theVLS: I see. OK. Was there any actual fire associated with that? LT. HOWARD: No. VLS: Ok. What engine were you on? LT. HOWARD: I was on crash rescue 3. There were two of us out there- one on crash rescue and one on crash fire- the big crash fire truck. VLS: And I’m just going to show you some documents which include actually two photographs, do you know if they were part of that particular incident? LT. HOWARD: Well you can see the made in Detroit on the tail of the plane- that’s what it said “Made in Detroit”. Yeah that might even be right there in the silver gear- I think that is me in the silver gear right there. VLS: Ok, you are talking about the person in the foreground of the one. LT. HOWARD: If that is silver gear it’s hard to tell in these black and white photos. VLS: Ok. Alright. LT. HOWARD: I’m just going off on how dark the other guy’s gear is which is like a brownish/green. VLS: Ok. Can you describe how much/ how big this spill was? LT. HOWARD: Um, I would say 5-10 gallons if I had to guess. At the most. VLS: Does the department typically photograph all scenes that you respond to? LT. HOWARD: I don’t think it’s a mandated order. Something significant- sure. VLS: Was that considered a significant incident? LT. HOWARD: I would not say it was, I mean any kind of flammable fluid on the ground could be dangerous but when I got there Naples Airport Authority- there’s the one that called us over, they were already on scene- they were already getting their little (illegible) trailer in place it has kitty litter and stuff. And that’s about all my role was the – -7- the guy I worked with, Steve he was sitting in the big crash fire truck the whole time just in case something were to happen but I was actually just helping the Airport Authority guys put kitty litter down, you know on the spill. VLS: That’s Steve? Who is Steve? LT. HOWARD: Steve Hunton- Driver Engineer. VLS: Do you know who photographed the scene? LT. HOWARD: Dean –Active (illegible) VLS: Ok. And did he indicate why he was photographing the scene? LT. HOWARD: No. VLS: Ok, so in the first photograph where you believe you’re shown in the foreground, were the other two firefighters doing anything at the scene? LT. HOWARD: The only person I know at one point was inside the cock pit with the duty officer on the cell phone with the pilot of the plane and he was just in there with the duty officer listening and helping out I guess- the duty officer was contacting the pilot to get instructions on how to release any more fluid to get – because it was just going to keep leaking and leaking- unless you can release it through a point of where it’s not going to hit those expansion valves. VLS: I see. LT. HOWARD: That’s about it. VLS: Was anyone- for purposes of the photography, was anyone asked to move equipment or to reenact anything? LT. HOWARD: I think Dean said I need to take a picture and I don’t know if all photos or (illegible) was going on. I remember being over by- and I don’t even see the little trailer right now. I think this picture was probably taken from over here. That’s the crash rescue truck was – and that would be facing that way. VLS: How many vehicles- apparatus I guess they are, responded to the scene? LT. HOWARD: Well there’s the airport trucks- which should be 2 and engine 2 showed up and (illegible) showed up. VLS: Ok and that’s it? LT. HOWARD: Yes. VLS: And how long were you on scene if you know? -8- LT. HOWARD: I’m really bad at that. I would say maybe 40 minutes maybe? VLS: Did you ever review any news coverage event incident? LT. HOWARD: No. VLS: Or see anything about it? LT. HOWARD: No. VLS: Ok, alright well let me see if I have any other questions for you. How much direct contact do you have with Chief McInerny? LT. HOWARD: Direct contact? Probably none. I’ve seen him once in a while come by the station, but no direct contact. VLS: Do you attend any City council meetings? LT. HOWARD: No. VLS: Do you watch any of the City Council meetings? LT. HOWARD: I have recently with the Airport – since I’m out there I need to know what’s going on. VLS: There was a concern that there may be some layoffs as result of that or terminations? LT. HOWARD: I heard that, yes. VLS: And from whom did you hear that? LT. HOWARD: Just the guys, the troops. VLS: Ok, alright. Understanding that my job has been to look into this letter any factual support board, is there anything else you want to tell me? LT. HOWARD: No. VLS: Ok and I’m just going to make that I am having the interviews transcribed so I’m going to attach – with the transcript of your interview notes- the black and white photos, re-prints, the scene at the airport where you responded to the fuel spill and Kid Rock’s airplane. OK? LT. HOWARD: Ok. VLS: Thank you very much. LT. HOWARD: You’re welcome. -9- RECORDED INTERVIEW OF LT. GERALD PECAR ON 12/08/15 VLS: Today is December 8, 2015 and again my name is Vicki Sproat. I am an attorney from Fort Myers who has been retained by the City of Naples to conduct an inquiry or investigation to allegations raised in a letter sent by the Local 2174 to City Manager on October 21, 2015 concerning allegations about Chief McInerny. Today we are in a conference room in City Hall and with me is Lt. Gerald Pecar who has been asked to give an interview in connection with that inquiry. Lieutenant, are you aware that this is going to be tape recorded? LT. PECAR: Yes. VLS: And before getting started I’d like to make several statements for the record. And the first is that City policy requires employees to be forthright, truthful and cooperative in providing information in connection with an inquiry investigation. Do you understand that? LT. PECAR: Yes. VLS: And City policy also provides that it would be a violation of policy for there to be any retaliation against an employee who participates in an inquiry or investigation such as this for their participating in it. Do you understand that? LT. PECAR: I do. VLS: And do you understand that if you feel like you’ve been subject to any retaliation for your participation in this interview process or inquiry that it should be reported to Department of Human Resources. LT. PECAR: I do. VLS: And with that, we’ll get started. And if you could just tell me your full name. LT. PECAR: My name is Gerald Alan Pecar. VLS: And you are currently employed by Naples Fire and Rescue Department in what capacity? LT. PECAR: I’m a lieutenant at Station 2 on A Shift. VLS: So you report to which Battalion Chief? LT. PECAR: Tim Bruener VLS: Do you sometimes act as, or are you sometimes the acting Battalion Chief? LT. PECAR: Yes, in A Shift I’m pretty much the only one. VLS: Tell me a little bit about your employment history with Naples Fire and Rescue. -1- LT. PECAR: From the beginning? VLS: Yes. LT. PECAR: I was hired in 1991, August 5, 1991. I was stationed at 2. I’m not sure how in depth you want me to go. VLS: You’re doing fine. LT. PECAR: I was, I believe I was on B Shift when I first started, I was on Station 2 and I worked for Jim McAvoy. Not too long after that, I got transferred to Station 1. VLS: Okay let me just back up one minute. When you were first hired back on August 5, 1991, what was your position? LT. PECAR: I was fire fighter. At the time, I was just a fire fighter. I didn’t EMT, paramedic, anything. I was so good at what I did, I didn’t need any of those. (laughter) VLS: (laughter) LT. PECAR: So I went to EMT school right away, and I ended up becoming assigned to Rescue 1. I took the first promotional opportunity that was available to me which was for a driver’s position and got promoted to driver, I think it was like a year and a half or maybe two years. I scored #1 and became the driver to Engine 1. From that time on, I pretty much stayed at Station 1 for sixteen years on the same shift. I ended up on C Shift and I either drove Engine 1, back then it was called Engine 11. Went from Engine 11, then 9, then Ladder 1, is what it’s called now. But for all those years, I was the driver on either one of those trucks, in the same shift, same station, which is quite unusual. I didn’t leave that shift, that position, until I got promoted to lieutenant. VLS: And when was that? LT. PECAR: I think, I’m so bad with dates, I think I’ve been lieutenant for maybe seven or eight years. Maybe nine years. I don’t remember the exact date, but I know it was on January 1. I know that. VLS: And who was the chief that promoted you to lieutenant? LT. PECAR: That was Chief, I want to say it was Chief McAvoy. It was either Chief McAvoy or Chief Reed. I’m not 100% sure. VLS: And when did you move from Station 1 to Station 2? LT. PECAR: Well I went to Station 3 first. When I got promoted, I took over for Sam Cadro (sp?) who was the lieutenant that was retiring. He was at the airport, so I was stationed at Station 3 for almost two years as a B Shift Station 3 Lieutenant. At that point, I got moved back to Station 1 as Lieutenant to Engine 1. I worked there, I’m really bad with time frames. -2- VLS: It really isn’t, I’m just trying to get an idea of kind of how you’ve moved around. LT. PECAR: So I went from Station 3 to Station 1 as a lieutenant there. I was one of the two lieutenants there for, I want to say, a year. At that point, Lt. Sunangelo (sp??) who was Station 2 lieutenant was promoted to Training Chief. And when he promoted they moved me to Station 2 and I’ve been there ever since. VLS: So you’ve been at Station 2 since….? LT. PECAR: I want to say it’s been like seven years. I think I’ve been a lieutenant longer than seven years, it’s been a long time. VLS: Okay. And you’ve been on A Shift at Station 2 during that time period? Assigned to A Shift? LT. PECAR: Yes. Yes. VLS: And when did you start serving in a capacity of acting Battalion Chief? LT. PECAR: Well I did it a few times early on, and then I told my Battalion Chief that I really didn’t want to because I felt like I was a little too maybe green or inexperienced to do it. So, I went a year or two that I hadn’t. When I was a new lieutenant obviously that wouldn’t have been something that I would have done, but when I got to Station 1, I was actually asked to do it a couple of times, and I did and I didn’t feel comfortable. So there was a senior lieutenant to me there and I told my Chief that I would just prefer that I didn’t do it. About the time that he left, he retired, I was asked again and I said I would do it if they brought me in the office and let me ride with the Chief a few times and get some idea of what needed to be done every day. And once I did that, I pretty much started doing it all the time. VLS: So how frequently are you in the position of serving as acting battalion chief or shift battalion chief for a day? LT. PECAR: Well every six weeks is my Chief’s Kelly (??) day. So, at least that, and whenever he is off. Which, Chief Bruener doesn’t take as much time off right now as some of the other chiefs do, but, it seems lately it has been quite often. It’s been a lot more. He’s been going to school, out of state training things and stuff. So it has been giving me more opportunities to act. VLS: Did you at some point in time apply for, or submit a letter of interest for the position of Battalion Chief of Training? LT. PECAR: I did. VLS: And when was that approximately? LT. PECAR: Well it was a few weeks after the position had been vacated, or was going to be vacated. At first I didn’t really have a lot of interest until I sat down and thought -3- about it and talked about with the wife. And so, the first interest I showed I actually had a meeting with Chief McInerny and talked to him about it. And I told him that I thought I was interested in the position and he said, write a letter of interest showing your, I guess kind of like a resume, qualifications and send it to me. So I did. I don’t know exactly what date of that. VLS: Did you happen to bring with you today what was submitted to the Chief? LT. PECAR: I didn’t know I was supposed to, I would have. I have the ability to get it. VLS: No, I think that I will ask that you provide that. And that may actually shorten things if that has in it all of your certifications and qualifications. Then I probably won’t need to ask you in depth all those questions. LT. PECAR: Yeah, I’m pretty sure I did this at the fire station. So it would be on my profile. I should be able to get it. VLS: Okay, because I’m not sure that what you submitted to the Chief is in your personnel file. LT. PECAR: Okay. VLS: So if we just continue with this interview and then take a break? something that you could – Is that LT. PECAR: No, yeah, I just need to get a computer that I can log onto. VLS: Then let’s plan on doing that. Let me switch topics now and ask you whether you’ve seen the October 21, 2015 letter from Local 2174? LT. PECAR: I have seen it. VLS: And you are a member of the Union? LT. PECAR: Yes. VLS: I am not going to get into whether you signed the letter or not. But I do what to get into some specific topics that are raised in the letter. But before that, when did you first see the letter? LT. PECAR: I guess it was when we voted on it. I think we had a version of that, or something that was similar to that that we looked at when we had our meeting to discuss the vote. I want to say within, I’m not sure if I saw it right then, or maybe after it got sent, but I want to say that we had a version of this, it may have been fine tuned. Times and stuff I’m just not sure. VLS: What I’d like to do is go through the four enumerated points that are in the Union’s letter and get your, any information from you that you believe is relevant to -4- those four points. And the first point raised in the letter is that “The Chief has misled the community and City staff. In particular, he has created the misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities.” Do you believe that statement is correct? LT. PECAR: I do. VLS: Okay. And then I’m going to ask you how you believe that the Chief has misled the community and City Staff by creating a misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus’ and facilities? LT. PECAR: Okay well going back a ways I really thought the need for this crazy huge fire boat was a real mistake. And I know we needed a fireboat. We clearly needed a fireboat. I’ve been on plenty of calls where I’ve been on what we would call a fireboat, it broke down and was very unsafe. So there was no question we needed a fireboat but the fireboat that he was trying to explain to the City residents and the City staff that he needed was just more of a fireboat than I think maybe all of West Coast has. So, I felt that was, ya know, wasn’t needed, wasn’t proper. VLS: Let me stop you there and continue to ask you some more questions about the fireboat. When did the Chief begin pushing for a new fireboat? LT. PECAR: I think when he started here, he pretty much was saying we needed one. Which he was correct. That I don’t dispute that at all. I’ve been on many a call where I’ve had to get towed in because we couldn’t even finish the job, or we did finish the job and couldn’t make it back to dock. So we clearly. I’m a boater and I know what it’s supposed to be like and we didn’t even have a boat that had a VHF radio. That’s just insane that we were even on the water. That is not, I don’t believe that is what was wrong. What was wrong is that what we were trying to get was way more than the City could afford or wanted. And so that kept us from having a new boat for a lot longer. VLS: Were you present at any City Council Meetings, Budget Meetings or did you view any of those meetings to see what the Chief was requesting or representing? LT. PECAR: I don’t know if I was present at any of those meetings. Obviously in my position as an officer, I’m sometimes talked to about budget stuff. But the idea of having a fireboat that would be able to pump a fire to a house that didn’t have a water supply because he claimed the City didn’t have enough water, I thought was part of his argument. And I didn’t feel that was real valid. But I can see where he was coming from but I just didn’t … VLS: Okay tell me why you feel that wasn’t valid. LT. PECAR: Well it’s hard enough to get some – some of these houses are hard enough to get to from the front, let alone get through from the back. Ya know, I understood that he was claiming that there was not enough water, but I just didn’t see how it would be tactfully possibly, tactically possible to use it in that situation. That was -5- my feeling. I know that was one of his arguments about having a fireboat with that big of a pump on it. So I just didn’t think that was tactfully useful personally. VLS: What fire station typically mans the fireboat? LT. PECAR: Fire Station 1. That’s, they’re the closest. But I have personally used the current fireboat on many occasions because I may be the only operator on duty. I’m pretty, I was one of the first, and I don’t think there is any actual record of this, but I was one of the first rough weather operators in the department. VLS: Is there a particular certification for rough weather? LT. PECAR: Well we have one now, but it is different than what we did before. When we first did, we didn’t have a fireboat at all which is, I don’t know, 15 years ago. We struck up a deal of some sort, maybe an agreement that the cops would let us use their boat. In a situation we would bring a pump on board and we would use their boat. So, when that happened they said, they touched a few people and said we would need you to go through this class with the then guy that was kind of running the water stuff. He’s since deceased. But, his name was Wayne Scott, Gary Wayne Scott. And so, myself and a few other people had gone through this class with Gary and he taught us what he felt we needed to know about boating in inclement weather. Myself, Sam Casho (??) and maybe a few others. Casho (??) was my Lieutenant so I know he was there for sure. We went through this class. And so, for a little while, we were the only ones that were allowed to run it. And in fact when he, when we were offered a high tech kind of pilot program boat from a company from Naples to use that, I think I may have been at the time the only operator that was allowed to drive it. So, that’s one of the reasons why I end up at the boat a lot is because I have a significant amount of experience. VLS: Traditionally, how has the Naples Fire and Rescue, under what circumstances is the boat utilized? LT. PECAR: I don’t think I understand the question. VLS: Is it, you’re saying it’s not typically been used to put out fires to houses. What sort of missions do you use the boat for? LT. PECAR: Well, anything water rescue, medical related. In the past when we’ve had the pump on our old boat, we did use to put out boat fires. I have used it on occasion for boat fires. But this one doesn’t have a pump on it right now so it is not….other than us having to bring a portable pump, that’s the only way we can get anything done. VLS: So in terms of water rescue, it would be a boater in distress? LT. PECAR: Yeah, wave runner accident. We’ve had a few fatalities where boats hit pilings or other boats. People have died and we’ve gone out and worked those. We go all over the county now because of the protocol we follow. So if we are second ???? dude we are always going. -6- VLS: Are you the primary responders to a boater in distress? LT. PECAR: If it’s within our district or close to our district, yeah. I mean we’ll go outside of our district but if, like, for example, right now, and I think it’s still, Isle of Capri, boat is out of service. So the next boat from us is Marco Island. So if there is a call from somewhere between here and Marco Island, we both go, and whoever gets there first is the primary responder. If we make it before they do, then obviously then we’re going to render aided, and vice versa. And that’s kind of how we run things on Bart. We sent the closest unit, or if it’s in the middle, the two closest units then we back them up with another one. VLS: You’ve used a term that I don’t understand. On bert? LT. PECAR: Mart. Marine Emergencies. VLS: Thank you. respond to Mart. And who currently in the department is considered qualified to LT. PECAR: Well the list is growing so I don’t know if I can give you a good list. I know on my shift it is myself, Mike Moore who kind of head’s up the boat stuff, and then I believe Jason Trecky (??) is also, and maybe Joe Fetser (??). There’s more people coming on line all the time because we are training them. VLS: What was the fire and rescue department has recently acquired a new boat? LT. PECAR: You said, did we? VLS: Did you recently get a new boat? LT. PECAR: Yeah, what we have now which I believe is a Boston Whaler, I believe is 27 feet. Pretty nice boat. It’s really exactly, I think it’s exactly what we needed. And which, is going back to what I said. I think we could have had this a long time ago if we would have brought down to reasonable --VLS: So you believe that the current boat is adequate for your needs? LT. PECAR: Oh yeah, in fact I’ve had it out in some pretty rough waters and I was pretty impressed with its abilities. VLS: So what it’s lacking now is the pumping mechanism? LT. PECAR: The pump. Yeah. VLS: And that’s something that’s in process? LT. PECAR: I think so, it’s been, I dunno when it’s coming but I know that when we got it we were able to at least have it plumed for the pump. So I don’t know when it’s supposed to be put on but I would hope soon. -7- VLS: When did the Department get the Boston Whaler? LT. PECAR: I want to say it’s been not quite a year yet. It’s been within the last year. VLS: Can you describe the boat that you believe the Chief was seeking to get approval for? LT. PECAR: It’s been awhile since I saw, but it was big. I want to say it was made out of aluminum. It had turrets and stuff. I mean it was big. In a lot of places I don’t think you could have even used it. Ya know anything north of 41 I don’t think we could have got it under the bridge. It was a big boat. VLS: And your, you brought it up as an example where the Chief misled the community and staff with a misimpression of need. You mentioned that you believed it was his representation that it was needed to put out house fires. You believed that that was --LT. PECAR: I think that’s where he was using some of, using that as some of the reasons why he needed a boat like that. But um, I believe at the time we were having the water supply was being tested and he was using the inadequate water supply, or the appearance of inadequate water supply for needing the fireboat. VLS: Okay did you ever have any conversations with the Chief about what you believe was an appropriate boat? Do you know if the Chief – LT. PECAR: Not that I remember. VLS: Do you know if anyone at the fire department told the Chief that they believed that a boat with the capacity to put out house fires was not necessary? LT. PECAR: I wouldn’t know. VLS: Anything else that you believe he misrepresented about the fireboat? LT. PECAR: No, that is what struck me as an issue. So, I don’t really know what he is explaining to the manager or the Council. I don’t know what he’s explaining. But I know that was part of his argument. So that’s the only thing I can really put my finger on. VLS: Anything else that you believe that the Chief has done to mislead the community by giving a misimpression of need where it does not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities? LT. PECAR: Well, I don’t really think we need to have another rescue truck, but. That’s kind of like, I don’t know if it’s opinion, but we went away from it a long time ago because it was not needed, and now we just bought another one and I’m not sure why. VLS: What type of truck? When you refer to a rescue truck? -8- LT. PECAR: Well we’re calling it Rescue 1 but it’s, there happen to be a push for a QRV for some reason, Quick Response Vehicle. I don’t really think it’s a good use of funds to buy a truck that is going to be sitting in the bay most of the time. That’s my personal opinion. I think that it is shared by a lot probably but that’s just my opinion. We had a rescue truck and felt it was more important to have them on a fire truck. An apparatus is going to be fighting fires. VLS: When was the new QRV recently obtained? Purchased? LT. PECAR: Yes. VLS: And you are saying that you don’t think that was necessary? LT. PECAR: Yeah I don’t. City Council I believe had expressed an interest in not trying to save, for money I guess or maintenance on the bigger trucks. Had inquired with the Chief I guess to get a QRV to, so you can be on the road with a smaller vehicle on calls. The argument that is completely against that is, What if you get a fire at the time that you are on the little truck, you don’t have the ability to do what you need to do. So, I believe, this is my opinion and my feeling, I believe the Chief let them buy that truck, let them get that truck, because eventually he can push to have more people. That was my feeling of why he allowed them to do it. Instead I think he should have advised them against it and said this is why we don’t want to do it. VLS: And the reasons for not getting a QRV is that the more it isn’t, it can’t respond to a fire. LT. PECAR: It can’t be utilized completely for what you need. You can have everything on it you need on a fire truck. It doesn’t have a pump. It doesn’t have a lot of stuff you need for a fire. So, if you are in one truck and you can go to any call, why would you get in a truck that you can go to some of the calls? That to me doesn’t make a lot of sense. And that was what the City Council had felt like they wanted. They also said, then if we have enough people, we can have two vehicles in service. Well that is a valid idea but I felt that the Chief was using that only once in a while to then push later, See listen, we really want to keep this thing in service all the time, so we need more people. Not that I don’t think more people aren’t important to be on a fire scene, that’s exactly, the more you have the more you can do. VLS: I guess that was going to be my next question. Do you believe that the Naples Fire and Rescue Department is adequately staffed? LT. PECAR: You can never have enough people for all the calls. So that’s, I think we’ve run with the same amount of people until this recent thing with the airport for almost as long as I’ve been here. So, with the amount of calls and things that we are doing these days, I would say that we are taxed. We are taxed on some days. On some days we don’t, we hit it just fine. VLS: Do you know what the Chief represented to Council about the QRV? -9- LT. PECAR: Only what I saw on the recordings. VLS: Okay so you did watch. LT. PECAR: Yeah I watched when I could. It was only – I don’t get it at home so I can only watch it when I’m here. But, I felt that from what I read or heard or seen and stuff was that he just rolled with it to get the vehicle. That’s my feeling. VLS: Where is the QRV located? LT. PECAR: When I last saw it, was this morning about an hour ago, parked out in front of the police station. VLS: Which station? LT. PECAR: The police station. It was my understanding, and I didn’t have enough time to do it this morning, my understanding was that I was supposed to help Chief McInerny take it down to get radios put in. But I couldn’t do it. VLS: Where is its destination? LT. PECAR: Well it’s labeled Rescue 1. So I imagine Station 1. VLS: Alright. Anything else you that you have knowledge of that you believe is relevant to the first point in the letter that the Chief has created a misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities? LT. PECAR: Well that’s the only thing I could think of for apparatus. I’m on Engine 2 and a lot of people are unhappy with the size of that truck, whatever. But ya know what, I love my truck because I’m kind of a fire truck buff if you will. So, I don’t know if we really needed what we got but I like what I have. So…(laughter) VLS: (laughter) What about facilities? LT. PECAR: I think the Station 1 thing is kind of, I’m not assigned there anymore and I know that I was assigned there, ya know, station facility seemed small and inadequate with the bunkers being the way they were but, ya know, if they would have fixed the problem with the showers and the bathrooms, I think it’s something we could have lived with instead of fighting for this giant station that he wants across the street. That’s my opinion but that’s because I’m not stationed there. VLS: When you were there, there were problems with the showers and bathrooms? LT. PECAR: Oh yeah, they leak. problems. There’s plumbing problems. We’ve had a/c VLS: Do you know whether there was ever any money budgeted to address those issues? - 10 - LT. PECAR: I know they spent some money on the kitchen. They redid the whole kitchen which was nice. I don’t think the kitchen was that bad when they redid it but I think the showers were way more in need of repair than the kitchen was but again, this is going from a guy who is not stationed there. I’m not cooking in that kitchen. We cook in the kitchen twice, three times a day and we take a shower maybe once or twice a day. So I guess you spend more time in the kitchen than you do in the bathrooms. VLS: Anything else that you would like to bring up with regard to the first point in the letter? LT. PECAR: No, I mean. I think those are the three things that stick in my head that I didn’t understand why we did what we did. VLS: Do you have much personal interaction with the Chief? LT. PECAR: Only when I’m at the BC’s office. He doesn’t come by the Station. VLS: And you would be at the BC’s office primarily when you are serving as the acting battalion? LT. PECAR: Yeah, there are some other times along with the many hats that I wear. I am a Telestaff guy. That’s the scheduling program we use. I’ve been to Vegas to train. Excuse me. I pretty much along with Adam Nadelman and myself and Mike Nichols, we pretty much built the whole thing out. VLS: Okay tell me about that. I meant to ask you earlier when you were discussing your career progression if you have any special administrative duties. And I guess Telestaff is one of them? LT. PECAR: Yeah. I get involved with everything probably because I don’t have the ability to say “no” but Telestaff was one I got involved with and to this day I’m very involved with that. So any big changes or any adjustments, people adding, the stuff that we’ve been doing for the NAA is something I work on. I was gone for most of the NAA because I was on vacation, I was working with Adam over the phone and when I got back. VLS: Explain to me about what the Telestaffing scheduling program is, understanding I don’t know your profession. LT. PECAR: It basically takes all the resources on duty and shows you where they are on a day to day basis. It also uses their qualifications, abilities, certifications, all in a situation where we can move them around and it advises you by alarms and certain things what you can and cannot do without having to really look into it. So in other words, if you look at my profile, I have all the certifications that I have, one of them being crew leader, which means I can go out to a brush fire and run a crew. So if somebody calls and says I need a strike team to go to wherever to work, at a glance I can look and see who I can send out there and what vehicle and know the right certifications are being met. - 11 - VLS: Oh I see. LT. PECAR: So it does things like that. It runs our overtime lists. Takes care of personal leave. Takes care of, all though the state doesn’t really use it, in its capacity it can take care of payroll. It’s pretty much an amazing program. It reaches out in all kinds of different things. Probably more abilities than we are using. VLS: Does it produce reports – LT. PECAR: It does. VLS: Does it produce reports that are given to the Chief? LT. PECAR: If he asks for it. He gets a report of the manning every day. Which I send it to all the other departments with the status of our equipment. Just so they know what’s available from us if they need it. But anybody that works in the department including human resources can log on and look at the status of the people any time they want. They don’t need me to send it to them, but I do anyway. We all do. All of the battalion chiefs and acting battalion chiefs do. VLS: And would it be utilized by the Chief for any purposes other than information? LT. PECAR: Hmm, I think information is pretty much it, but he may make decisions like, say he wanted to go out on the boat with a councilmember which we just did not too long ago. He would know, he would be able to see who he has, has the ability to run the boat. So he can make decisions based on that, that’s just one. But if he needs to know for whatever reason, operationally what we can and cannot do, he can look at it. But he can do that without looking at the report. He can just log on like I can right now with my phone. VLS: What was the circumstances of scheduling the boat with the councilmember? LT. PECAR: Oh I don’t know, it wasn’t on my shift. I just know it happened. The only reason I was privy to it at all was I happen to walk in the station when something else had gone down. I guess there is no real reason why can’t talk about it. I happen to be in the station talking to Adam when Training Chief Pennington came in and wanted to have a discussion with Adam and Cory about his belief that they were not giving him, not support, respect that he deserved, I guess. VLS: I’m going to go ahead and get into that even though it’s off topic. When did that happen? LT. PECAR: It’s way off topic but it did happen. Well maybe three or four weeks ago. Actually, I was, let’s see, I was gone for a-while. Did it happen before or after I came back? Um, it had to have happened before because --- I’m sorry I don’t remember. VLS: That’s okay, we’ll move on. - 12 - LT. PECAR: But it was obviously within the time that Chief Pennington was here, within the last couple months. What had happened was, what I was aware of was that I walked in to the station and, it had to be before I went on vacation, so it was like a month ago. VLS: So you walked into Station 2? LT. PECAR: I don’t even remember what I was there for, but – VLS: Is this Station 2? LT. PECAR: Yes. Yes. And uh, shortly after I got there, Chief Pennington had walked in and said, “Adam, I need to talk to you and Cory.” And Cory happened to be stopping by, I think to fill air bottles or something. So they were both in the same station at the same time just by chance. And they close the door and they had their conversation and he left. And I asked Adam what happened. And he goes, He thought we were not giving him respect. He told me what happened. He said that Pete had called Adam and they were in training at the training center. VLS: Pete DiMaria? LT. PECAR: Yeah, I’m sorry, Chief DiMaria. Had called Adam and said I’m going to need Travis, which is a boat operator, who was in that class at the time, to come down and take the Chief for a ride with I believe was a councilmember, I’m not 100% sure if it was a councilmember or somebody else. And so they were discussing, Cory’s driver at the time was Travis, so Adam was discussing with Cory. And I guess the Chief, the training Chief got upset that he was doing that in the middle of all of this. But DiMaria was coming to get Travis and he was just telling him… So that’s how I knew about it. I don’t really know if he was a councilmember or maybe a citizen or somebody that wanted to go on the fireboat. But that’s what happened. They had to get Travis down there to drive the boat because he was the only operator from Station 1 then. VLS: You weren’t at the training session? LT. PECAR: No. VLS: So you didn’t see what happened? LT. PECAR: No. I just happened to walk into the station when all that went down. I just happened by chance. VLS: And you weren’t privy to what took place in the meeting between Pennington, Nadelman and Cory. LT. PECAR: Nope he really didn’t talk to me about it. He just told me why he wanted to talk to him. And my understanding from that conversation was that it was just a misunderstanding and that’s all I know about it. - 13 - VLS: Okay. Trying to remember where we were. LT. PECAR: Yeah, sorry. VLS: Oh I guess we were talking about the Telestaffing scheduling program that you have a special administrative duty. By the way, when, were you present when a consultant for PSSI came in and did a ---LT. PECAR: I don’t think I ever met any of the guys. VLS: You didn’t meet any of the them? LT. PECAR: Hmmmhmmm (negative). Or people. I don’t know if they were guys or girls. VLS: Alright. Another special administrative duty you mentioned that you have is something having to do with NAA. What special responsibilities do you have? LT. PECAR: The NAA, that’s the Naples Airport Authority. The only thing that I had to do with that the change of the way we man the department and that station. It is now being handled by over time, so I helped them out a little bit by creating that over time list of doing the changes to tell us to have to allow it to happen. VLS: I see. LT. PECAR: Now I was certified out there, I was stationed out there. I spent two years out there almost. So I’m familiar with a lot of the stuff out there. But that’s what I was talking about. VLS: Okay, very good. We’ll get back to the letter. And I think I’m ready if you’ve talked about everything that you think is pertinent to the first allegation, or first numerated point in the October 21, 2015 letter, then I’ll move to the second. LT. PECAR: Well there are few other things that I’d like to take care of administratively wise. VLS: Okay well let’s continue to do that. LT. PECAR: I am also involved in a new CAD Dispatch program. I’ve been helping build that out with Mike Nichols. That’s been, that’s why I sometimes may be in the office that is not as a battalion chief. So I do that. VLS: And tell me about what the new CAD Dispatch system is. LT. PECAR: Well it’s made by Motorola. And it’s again, pretty in depth. Probably, I don’t understand all of it. I understand from what I have been tasked to do. But I don’t understand all of it. It basically will take the calls and put all the modifying factors in there and through all location, the kind of call, the modifying factors of the call, it then - 14 - dispatches the appropriate people or apparatus. And when we first started it, it was just for us, the County was doing their own thing and we were doing our own thing. Um, we got it almost all the way completed. And it all changed, now we’re going to be doing it just like the County is, so everything that I did before was pretty much for not. VLS: So you are not going with the new Motorola? LT. PECAR: No we are but we are doing the closest unit dispatch thing now which is what we were told when we started this that we weren’t going to do. So everything that I built was based on the City of Naples’ beats and resources. VLS: And now you are taking into account the neighboring – LT. PECAR: Yeah, pretty much everything I did was a waste, pretty much all of it. Pretty disheartening actually. VLS: (laughter) yeah. LT. PECAR: A lot of people see that on my face. It was, ya know, I’m still glad I was involved in it but I just, I felt like we did a lot of work for nothing. So, I also take care of the bunker gear. Needs for the – VLS: Bunker gear? LT. PECAR: Hmm hmm (affirmative). Or turn out gear. Which is a difficult task because it is all up here at Station 1 and I’m at Station 2 so I try to do it when I’m on a Battalion Chief’s truck. Ya know do some of the things I need to do, like ordering and organizing and taking care of people’s gear. I also was the Hazmat team leader for the Department. And felt that I was getting a little, and have been for a long time, so even before I was lieutenant I was team leader and just felt like I was getting burnt out so I requested a change because I just needed to get away from it. I’m still on the Hazmat team and I still take care of all that monitoring equipment but I am no longer the team leader. VLS: Who is the current team leader? LT. PECAR: Cory Adamski. So, I’ve lost that title and gained turn out gear which was Cory’s at the time and then I also supposed to take care of the inventory of the vehicles. Which I allow the guys to just tell me what they need and changing. VLS: Okay and explain what’s involved with the inventory of the vehicles. LT. PECAR: We have a book. Similar to what you are writing in there. You open it, it has a page full of stuff and you just make sure that everything is where it’s supposed to be. So when they move it around, they just tell me they moved it. VLS: Okay so it has nothing to do with determining when a vehicle or apparatus needs to be replaced? - 15 - LT. PECAR: No. No not at all. VLS: Just keeping track? LT. PECAR: Just keeping track of the equipment that is on it. VLS: Okay. Alright, if you have covered your special administrative duties. LT. PECAR: Yeah, I think that is pretty much it. I’m always asked. I’ve been here almost 25 years, so I get asked to do a lot of things just because I’m a senior guy. But that’s pretty much my normal stuff I take care of at this time right now. VLS: Okay let’s move to the second point in the Union’s letter which is “The Department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity.” And what I’m going to ask you is do you believe the Chief has made misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity? LT. PECAR: Yeah, I do. VLS: Okay, and in what respect? LT. PECAR: Well we run, we classify a lot of the calls we go to now different than we did before he got here. I think that’s a big part of it. There is plenty of times where I’ll call a fire call a fire call when I just don’t believe it is. VLS: So this has to do with the coding on an incident report? LT. PECAR: Yeah, I think that’s the biggest part of it. I’ve heard him say that if there’s smoke there must be fire. And that’s not true. I don’t really believe that. I mean you can have a belt in an a/c unit lock up or something and create smoke and it’s not a fire. VLS: Does it, as I understand it, Naples Fire and Rescue, and I guess all the department’s nationwide use the, or supposed to use the NFIRS Coding System? LT. PECAR: Well, I believe so. I guess National Fire Incident Reporting System so that would be national. So, I believe so. VLS: And what you are saying under the Chief calls or incidents that previously had been reported as something else but now sometimes being reported as a fire when you don’t think it should be? LT. PECAR: Well I, what I would say is that – VLS: I’m not trying to put words in your mouth. LT. PECAR: No I understand. I would say that there may have been a case or two that maybe we were coding them wrong. But being wrong from one side of the coin to the - 16 - complete opposite extreme, we were calling stuff fires which I don’t believe should be. So I will say that I believe that in the past we may have been going the opposite side. VLS: Okay give me some examples of what you believe are incidents that are now being recorded or coded as fires that you believe are not probably recorded as such. LT. PECAR: I have had a couple calls where the breaker had melted down, short circuited and melted down. Or, in fact I think there was one, it was a water heater. Something happened and wires had melted, so when I got there ya know there was a smell of something electrical and we figured it out and it was in this water heater and we classified it as a fire. Which I don’t in this case I don’t know if I really could have. I didn’t see any flames and it wasn’t on fire when I got there and all I saw was some melted down wiring. It looked like it was a short circuit. That’s something we would have always done as a hazardous electrical something and now we are calling those structure fires. VLS: Okay. What do you think separates a fire from something, such as you’ve mentioned simply a hazard under the coding system? LT. PECAR: I would have to say it has to be something that is burnt. Something either seen by either the person who reported it or obvious charring I believe. That’s, I mean it just….to me that’s just common sense but maybe those NFIR rules are different than what I think common sense would be. VLS: Okay did you have any training in the NFIRS coding? LT. PECAR: No more than what anybody else has. VLS: On the job primarily? LT. PECAR: Yeah. VLS: How has since Chief McInerny has come on board, you are saying that the changes in the coding have occurred since he came on board? LT. PECAR: Absolutely. VLS: And has he, how have those changes been communicated to you? Through him directly? LT. PECAR: Probably, yeah, I would say yes but it would have been way back when he first started. I would, as an officer, a couple officers doing reports, I was getting told by the battalion chief too, the Chief wants you to do it this way on this call and this is wrong. VLS: So it would come primarily through the chain of command. understanding that the corrections were originating with the Chief? - 17 - It was your LT. PECAR: Yes. VLS: Has that resulted, if you now, in an increase in the number of what has been coded as fire calls? LT. PECAR: Oh absolutely. And likewise, the damage loss. Because an electrical hazard has, or electrical calls you wouldn’t, you don’t specify damage loss. If I went to a call that the water heater had an electrical problem, that’s just what it was, an electrical problem. VLS: Okay. LT. PECAR: There is no place to put a damage loss for an electrical problem. VLS: Okay so as a result of classifying something that previously would have been classified as a hazard, if you are not classifying it as a fire, then you do the damage with the fire loss. LT. PECAR: There is fire loss. VLS: Do you feel that that is a misrepresentation or exaggeration? LT. PECAR: Well yeah I think it is an exaggeration because you know, it’s not a fire and you are putting a fire loss. Then it is an exaggeration. I do know that when I am doing fire loss, I have some background in fire investigation. I have taken all the classes ya know. And as an officer I am doing fire loss. I am looking at it from a lot of different points of view. Maybe he is too, I don’t know what the Chief McInerny’s background is, but I have been there when he said that when we come up with a fire loss he said is should be more than that. VLS: In terms of something that is actually fire and he has - LT. PECAR: -- an actual fire. VLS: So let’s get to that point then that I guess goes to misrepresentations or exaggerations with respect to damage. Explain for me how you feel that that has been misrepresented or exaggerated. LT. PECAR: Well, just that. I have heard him say that the damage loss is more than that. Maybe he was right and we were wrong. I really don’t know, but I have witnessed him saying that there was more damage than what you guys are reporting. VLS: And this is something where you witnessed him, not through the chain of command. LT. PECAR: I’ve heard him say it. VLS: Can you give me some examples? - 18 - LT. PECAR: I don’t think I can. I mean, I just don’t remember specific fires. I’ve been to a lot of them. In fact, more than I want to go to them, I guess. I just know I’ve heard him say it. And I’ve heard through the chain of command that exactly what has been said is that he has changed the damage amounts. Now I have actually personally saw him, seen him do it. But I have been told he has been. VLS: Were those instances, or any of those instances situations where he was actually on site? LT. PECAR: Well, he hasn’t been to all the fires that I have been on, but he has been to a lot of them. So, I would say that yes and no. VLS: Has he ever made any comment that would give you any indication of why he believed that the damage amount should be higher? LT. PECAR: No. I mean he didn’t. I know I’ve heard him say it and I know he’s done it through the other battalion chiefs but he never gave me a reason. Not that I can remember. I had a pretty deviant fire that I was a battalion chief on a couple years ago I guess. Maybe it was a year and a half ago. It was a carport fire, or a car fire. Came as a car fire and then he said it was a car in a carport. The address they gave us, I knew as soon as they said it that it was one of these long carports that they have in front of these condos so I dispatched everybody. And when I got there it was like seven or eight cars in line, it was a big fire. I want to say he was at that one. I don’t remember what the damage ended up being, in fact I don’t think I even put it down as loss in that. I think that the fire marshal did it after the fact. Because it was so big, it was so much to be dealt with there was no way to put one on it by just looking at it. So that a lot of times damage loss comes from the fire marshal. VLS: Yes, did you see the damage amount that was ultimately attributed to that. LT. PECAR: If I did I don’t remember. VLS: Okay, are you brining that up as an example where you believe there was misrepresentation or exaggeration? LT. PECAR: No, no because I don’t even know what it was. No, I was just pointing it out that he does usually show up when he is around to the fires. VLS: Oh I see. LT. PECAR: So he would normally be around I believe. VLS: Is it your understanding that as a result of his having a different in opinion of the damages that his figure gets reported? I mean that that’s what – LT. PECAR: It is, I have been told that that’s what happens. VLS: Told by battalion chiefs? - 19 - LT. PECAR: By battalion chiefs. VLS: Not something that you’ve personally experienced? LT. PECAR: No, I have not. I have not gone back and looked at the damages to see the change. I have not done that. VLS: Alright. Have you been present at City Council Meetings or observed City Council Meetings where he has discussed increase in fire calls and damages? LT. PECAR: I have watched videos. I’ve watched the Council Meetings when they have questioned him. Questioned him on, “How come there are more fire calls now than there was before?” I have watched those. VLS: And do you believe that his response to those questions has been misleading? LT. PECAR: Yes. VLS: Okay, in what way? LT. PECAR: Because he tells them that there are more fires and buildings are getting older. And we’ve all said it, that if you would have just told them that part of the reason is this, you know that we are coding them wrong that it would have been taken differently. But, I believe the City Council doesn’t believe him now because of some of the things he’s said like that. I think they are too smart to believe him. VLS: Okay. So we are on the second point in the Union’s letter. I’m asking you about any information you may have that is relevant to that which relates the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage and intensity. Is there anything further that you have, that is relevant to that point? LT. PECAR: I mean, I think that that covers it. I don’t like the way we code things because I think it’s incorrect. The damage gets showed up because now it is a fire instead of non-fire so that increases. As far as intensity, I know that, I think that, I as a company officer represented to everyone else that is coming, about the fire or whatever the problem is, in the best way that I can. And I know he wants to hear more, he wants to make more of it than it always is. He does that, he does it not only on these situations but when just any calls, he just wants to make it so it’s in the paper. VLS: Okay so I understand what you are saying as a broad statement. anything that you can give as an example of that? Is there LT. PECAR: Specific calls, I don’t know. I just don’t remember them like that. VLS: Is this something that, you say he likes to make more of it than it is. Is this something that comes to you directly from him or is something through the chain of command? - 20 - LT. PECAR: I definitely see it when I am the acting battalion chief. VLS: Okay, then tell me about those observations. How would, even if you can’t give a specific example, what things would he say to you or in your presence that would --LT. PECAR: Well he usually texts me. That’s usually how he – he likes to do that in the most inopportune time when I’m trying to manage a scene. He’ll want pictures, he’ll want this or that. I think he does that to all the guys that are the acting battalion chief because in the middle of the battle, it’s the last thing I have time to do is take pictures and text them back to him. But he wants all that information so he can forward it on to whatever news girl that he is trying to get it to. So he does that. He wants a lot of information and I think that, I can’t think of specific circumstances but I just know that when he is asking me for information he is trying to get me to over-do it. We had a boat fire about six or seven months ago, maybe eight months ago. I don’t know, well. Anyways we were working and all of a sudden all the news got there. There were all there. I don’t know how they knew about it, how they got there, I just know they were there. And he came up to me and he goes, he said, “Where’s your helmet?” I said, “It’s in the truck.” He goes, “Go get it, you’re going to be on TV.” And I was, in the middle of working. But that’s …. Ya know somebody told me from his department a long time ago when he first started he said, “You are going to be the most famous fire department in Florida when he gets there.” VLS: Someone from Fort Lauderdale. LT. PECAR: Somebody from Fort Lauderdale. I didn’t understand what they meant by that until he got here and that’s when….I’ve never been on TV more than I have in the last five years. VLS: (laughter) Okay. Did you need your helmet on that particular day? LT. PECAR: Well I wasn’t, I was way far away. But there’s a rule that if you are going to be on TV, you have to have your coat and helmet on. VLS: Is that a Chief rule? LT. PECAR: That’s his rule. VLS: Alright. LT. PECAR: It makes sense. I’m also PIO, Public Information Officer. If you’re going to be on TV, you are going to be in the news, you want to make sure, especially if it’s good information, for a good reason, that you have the fire truck that’s yours in the background, or you’re wearing something that says City of Naples on it. So that doesn’t – it makes sense. But, it’s a rule. VLS: Has there been any change under the Chief in how or when the personal are to inform dispatch that a fire is out? - 21 - LT. PECAR: I have been told through the chain of command that you don’t say it’s out until it’s like, you guys are mopping up. VLS: Is that a change? LT. PECAR: Well that’s not the way I kind of understand why you tell them that but that’s what we do. VLS: So has there been as a result of that an increase in what would show in the CAT system? LT. PECAR: Oh I don’t know. It probably does. I guess there is, I don’t know what they do in the current CAT. Ya know when I’m working a fire and I’m managing a fire, I tell dispatch, it isn’t so much for dispatch, it’s for everybody else that is listening when a fire is under control. That means the fire may not be out but it is no longer as much of an issue or we have stopped the spread and we are close. And then when it’s out, then I say it’s out. Now I don’t think we are supposed to really say it’s out when it’s out. I think we’re supposed to say it’s out when we are starting to mop up. VLS: So when is, in your opinion, a fire out sufficient to call back to dispatch? LT. PECAR: When it’s out. When I’ve put it out. There is going to be salvage and overhaul. Overhaul is the searching of hidden fires. If I am on the crew that is doing the work, and I call back to van and say, “Be advised, we have located the fire and it’s out” that means the actual free burning fire that is front of me is out. I just put that out. It doesn’t mean that that maybe that wall got too hot and I don’t have to open it up and make sure there is nothing behind it burning, but that fire is out. VLS: Okay so things like salvage and overhaul are often functions that follow the fire being out. LT. PECAR: That’s the way I’ve always been taught. I’m not sure what happens, what the significance is. It never really bothered me. Now that you’re asking me that, I don’t know what it would really do. Except….I don’t know what it would. Really, we’re still there working, it doesn’t really matter. When I say it, I’m saying it to give the van to let him know that I put the fire out. That’s why I’m telling him that. I would expect that if I was battalion chief that would be the same thing that my lieutenant would tell me, “Hey I found the fire, it’s out.” That to me is important, I want to know it. But I think typically we are being told not to jump the gun and say it’s out. VLS: And that coming through the battalion chiefs and you believe through the chain of command up to the Chief? LT. PECAR: Yeah, well I work with all these same guys for all this time, I guess it’s coming from him. I would think it is. - 22 - VLS: Okay. Alright, I am going to suggest we take a break. It’s about 10:10 a.m. and perhaps during this break time, take as long as you want. Let’s see if we can come up with, if you can come up with whatever communications you had with the Chief --LT. PECAR: Like the interest letter and the resume? VLS: Exactly. I think that that will help speed this up cause you not to have to rifle through your file to get all of your certifications. So it is as I said, 10:10 a.m. and we will take a break. ***BREAK VLS: Okay, it is now 10:37 a.m. and we are back on the record with the Lieutenant Pecar. And what I’d like to do is go back to the letter that you have, the letter that was written by the local Union to the City dated October 21 and I want to make sure that we’ve covered everything that you believe is relevant to the second point which is that “The Department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damages, and intensity.” LT. PECAR: Oh you are asking me if we covered it, yeah I think so. VLS: Okay then let’s go to the third point in the letter. And you’ve got it over there if you want to look at it too. That “the Chief’s misrepresentations, exaggerations and outright mendacity have created a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s firerescue personnel. As a result, the Chief has lost the ability to effectively lead the City’s firefighters.” Do you believe that that is a correct statement? LT. PECAR: Um, I believe that he has lost our faith, our trust. I am not really sure what mendacity means. VLS: Okay and I am just going to ask you to assume that was one I had to look up too but let’s call that “out right lying”. LT. PECAR: Oh yeah, I have firsthand knowledge of that, so yes. VLS: So we are going to assume that that is what that word means. LT. PECAR: Yes, okay so then I agree with it, yes. VLS: Then I want to know why, first of all in what way. You’ve said you believe there is a lack of trust between the Chief and fire/rescue personnel. Is that correct? LT. PECAR: I do. VLS: Is that lack of trust been there from the time that he started, did a particular event trigger that, has it been progressive? How would you describe it? - 23 - LT. PECAR: I would say that it is progressive. I figure there has been many times where he has misrepresented to us as a department for his attempting to, he has objectives that he is attempting to reach. Bigger, better, more stuff. It’s almost like there is, like he’s tallying up all the things that he can get sometimes. We got approved for, I want to say it was for Engine 2. For some reason we didn’t order it forever. It is almost like he didn’t really care about getting it, cared more about getting approved for it. So it seems like he has an agenda all the time on things he is trying to accomplish. So instead of trying to be the best at what we can do with what we have, sometimes it’s more about what he can get. VLS: And what do you, how would you characterize is agenda or objectives? LT. PECAR: To be bigger. VLS: Bigger in terms of personnel, in terms of apparatus? LT. PECAR: Yep. More more more. He wants to be like Fort Lauderdale. Jokingly we call this East Fort, or West Fort Lauderdale. Every time we talk to him about stuff, he says, when I was in Lauderdale. It’s always back to when I was in Lauderdale. I don’t, ya know what, that’s where his experience was so him reaching back to that is perfectly fine but it’s like he is trying to be like Fort Lauderdale. This isn’t Fort Lauderdale. This is completely different. So that’s why. VLS: You made the statement that “he has misrepresented us as a department”. Do you mean he’s misrepresented the Naples Fire and Rescue? Or, what, tell me what you mean by he’s misrepresented you as a department. LT. PECAR: I don’t know if I actually say it like that. VLS: Okay well then. Okay, we’ll just go forward. LT. PECAR: Ya know he, well, I don’t know if I actually said that I don’t even know what I meant by that in all honesty. Ya know he has, let’s go back to the question. VLS: Okay. LT. PECAR: Misrepresentations. VLS: Yeah, has he made, okay let me ask you this. Has he made misrepresentations, exaggerations and lied? LT. PECAR: Well he exaggerates. That’s, that definitely. He does that. And he does that with fire laws, he does that with just everything. Trying, again, it’s like he wants to be busier than we are. He wants, when he asks, when he says goodbye to me in the afternoon when he leaves to go home, or if I’m leaving to go get something to eat. I’ll say, “I hope you have a quiet night sir”, he goes, “Not me! Hope you guys are busy.” And he’s always wanting more. - 24 - VLS: And he makes those exaggerations, are made to whom? Are they made to third parties, not just within the department. Is it made to Council? LT. PECAR: Yeah, definitely Council. I mean that, I think that is one of the things why he has lost their faith a little bit because he exaggerates so much that it is on the other side of reality sometimes. I don’t believe, I don’t agree with everything the Council does but they are looking at a bigger picture but I can tell you that after a while you come back with the same thing over and over again they are not that stupid. They are going to figure it out. And I think they have. I think they know that a lot of the stuff that he says is out of proportion, exaggerated. As far as lying to them, I don’t know if he’s lied to them, he’s lied to me. VLS: Okay, how and when has he lied to you? LT. PECAR: Well the training position is when he lied to me. And that to me is, was the straw. VLS: When and how did he lie to you about the training position? LT. PECAR: When I, we talked about a meeting. It really wasn’t a meeting. We were doing something, we were testing that powder, just me and him. He asked me to come down to the training center and help test that flammable powder. And when we were done, I told him, I said, “Sir, I’d like to tell you that I want to put in for the training chief spot.” He said, “Good, go ahead.” And at that time I don’t think anyone had maybe put in, I’m not sure if they had, but I hadn’t heard about anybody and my feeling was that somebody needed to. And so, I examined it with my wife and talked about it, thought it over and said natural progression. I felt like I was pretty comfortable with what I do now, it is time to do something better for the department and take this spot so I told him I was interested. He said, “Write a letter of interest and send me your resume.” And I did. VLS: Okay, let me stop you there. We had taken a break and did you bring back with you the letter of interest that you prepared? LT. PECAR: Yes. The letter of interest and the resume is the other four papers. VLS: And that was an attachment or enclosure to the letter of interest, your resume? LT. PECAR: Yeah, it was given to him. It wasn’t e-mailed to him. It was given to him. VLS: It was hand delivered? LT. PECAR: Yes. VLS: Okay, I’ve marked this as Exhibit “1” to your interview. And the letter is dated July 29, 2015. Is that about the date you would have hand delivered it? - 25 - LT. PECAR: Yeah, I want to say it was the day before. He was asking it to be in by. I don’t remember the exact date. But I want to say that there was a time, and I was looking for that on my e-mail, I couldn’t find it. It’s mostly because of this e-mail system. It just wouldn’t allow to download past stuff. So there was an e-mail that said if you would like to put in for it, put it in by such and such date. And I think I gave it to him the day before. VLS: And what were the circumstances in which you hand delivered it to him? LT. PECAR: I just dropped it off in the office in an envelope. VLS: Did you talk to him at that time? LT. PECAR: No. In fact, I’m not really sure if he was there. I think it was in the morning, you know, it was during work hours, but I don’t know where it was at. I don’t believe he was there. I think I just left if with Kathy. VLS: Kathy Carrington being the Administrative Assistant? LT. PECAR: Yeah. Yeah. VLS: Let me ask you, is everything that is stated in your resume that was enclosed with the July 29, 2015 letter accurate and up-to-date at the time? LT. PECAR: To the best of my knowledge, yeah. VLS: So it contains all of your education, professional experience and certifications? LT. PECAR: Uh huh. I accrued a few of them in 25 years or almost 25 years. VLS: Yes. And what did you think in particular made you well suited for the training position? LT. PECAR: Well I just felt like I knew what we needed. You know, I’m certified in just about everything we can and do and I’ve either taken it or been trained in it or whatever. So I felt like I had a lot of knowledge to (illegible) to share. Now one thing I don’t have is I don’t have a degree. And I am a firm believer that it isn’t, it isn’t as necessary in the fire service as it may be, you know, in saying being a doctor. So, I felt like when I was coming, growing and learning this business, this job, I felt like the on-the-job, the hands on training, the stuff that I have learned, and it made me what I am today, was very important. And I honestly never saw myself going past an officer anyway so I didn’t focus on the degree. That being said, I have almost all of everything I needed for a degree, I just don’t have the English and the math. So, it wasn’t – I’m not far away from it by any means. I couldn’t have definitely gotten it if it was necessary. But two of our three Battalion Chiefs don’t have degrees now either. So, again, it’s nice to have, but you know, with a family and all the classes I did take, it was the one thing I didn’t get done. - 26 - VLS: Did the Chief every tell that you having a degree was a necessary qualification for - ? LT. PECAR: No. He didn’t say it was necessary. He didn’t say that it precluded me from doing it. It did say, I want to say in the e-mail that you know, a degree is – and this comes out on just about every promotional – this really wasn’t put out as a promotional opportunity type thing. It was just a letter of interest. And I don’t really remember exactly what it said but its common knowledge that I don’t have a degree and that you know, and so it was discussed. What he did tell me, and he told me in a meeting when I was a Battalion Chief, is that he told me that I was top of the list in the department for being promoted. He goes I have a lot of faith in you, I have a lot of trust in you, you’re definitely capable, but Human Resources has a problem with you not having a degree. He told me that. VLS: When was that meeting? LT. PECAR: It was, it was the Friday before the Monday Council meeting that he advised Council that he had hired Battalion Chief Phil Pennington. I was working on a Friday and it happened on a Monday. I was actually going on vacation so I was surprised when I found out that that all had happened. VLS: Where did that meeting take place? LT. PECAR: In the Battalion Chief’s office. VLS: Was anyone else present? LT. PECAR: Nope. It was just me. It was like 8:00 at night too. VLS: What was the reason for – was there a reason for the meeting? LT. PECAR: He just came in and I was working on something at the desk and he leaned up against the wall and just started in with the conversation. He didn’t call me in his office or he didn’t, you know, there was – I kind of was curious on how come we hadn’t made a decision yet because it had been awhile. You know, I put in – what was the date of this? July 29 and I think it was in, I don’t know, it was sometime in September that it all happened. So I thought that it was a long time. It was the end of December or end of September I think. VLS: Did you, at that meeting, I mean when you ran into him, did you bring up the issue? LT. PECAR: No. He came in and talked to me. I was working on something. And he said, what he told me was that he was going to be making a decision that weekend. He says I’m going to be deciding. He said, you know right now you’re definitely the front runner and you work in this Battalion Chief’s office really well and you’ve handled yourself well, you’ve taken care of a lot of big calls here, you’ve done good. But Human Resources has a problem with you having a degree. And so, I would say I was - 27 - concerned about that. I knew the other – there was – I think there was three other people that were wanting the job as well. VLS: Internally? LT. PECAR: Yes. One of them wasn’t an officer which I knew Steven Kofsky, that he wanted it and would’ve, you know, other than not being an officer, he teaches a lot. He would have been – he’s just Steve. I don’t know, have you met him. VLS: I have not met him. LT. PECAR: You’ll understand when you talk to him. He’s a great guy, but you know, he’s Steve. The other two guys just don’t have a lot of time on it. Although I think they had degrees, I don’t think they had – they could bring to the table what I did, even though without a degree. So I felt like I was – and I felt like I could have made a difference in the department. VLS: Did you know, did the Chief ever, prior to Pennington’s hire, advise you or anyone else that he was looking at candidates outside of the department? LT. PECAR: I had heard through, I want to say it was Steve because Steve knows, his name is Dave. I can’t remember his last name. Dave Carter. He knows Dave Carter and Dave Carter had mentioned that he asked Dave Carter to come over and he had said no. VLS: Where is Dave Carter. LT. PECAR: He is a fireman at, or lieutenant at Ft. Lauderdale. Now that was, I just heard that. Other than that, we heard here and there. We heard that he had offered it to a guy from North Naples, a Chief up there, which he ended up leaving and taking his own department up in north Florida somewhere. We heard that he, and this was a rumor so I don’t even know, I can’t substantiate it, but I heard some people say that they knew it was true that he had offered it to Les Williams who was from EMS. He’s not even a fireman. So there was talk about him trying to go outside, but everything we had heard is that nobody had said yes. VLS: Anything else that occurred in that meeting that Friday night around 8:00 when you were in the Battalion Chief’s office? LT. PECAR: Well he just, what he had told me. I mean, and then come to find out that Human Resources doesn’t dictate who has a degree. And this is his exact words. He said that they, that Human Resources had a problem me not having a degree when engineers in the department or in the City make money. Or I’m sorry, when I would make money than some engineers in the City, like for water treatment and stuff like that. That these guys aren’t going to make as much money as a Training Chief but I don’t have a degree and that the Human Resources has a problem with that. VLS: Did he indicate who in Human Resources or just Human Resources? - 28 - LT. PECAR: I don’t know if, I mean he may have said Denise Perez, but I don’t, I equate Denise Perez with Human Resources so if he said it, Denise Perez, then I may have just heard it as Human Resources, but I want to say he said Human Resources. VLS: And was, did you, do you know whether that was true whether Human Resources had indicated that there was a problem with your candidacy because you did not have a degree? LT. PECAR: Well, I personally did not talk to Human Resources, but the Union President did. VLS: So Adam Nadelman talked to? LT. PECAR: Nadelman, yep. Nadelman talked to them and had inquired about that requirement and that’s how I found out that he was lying to me about it, that she had never said anything. And then on top of that, he was offered the job weeks before that conversation had happened. VLS: And you’re talking about Pennington? LT. PECAR: Yes. VLS: And how do you know that? LT. PECAR: From Adam looking into it because through the conversation with Denise or Human Resources, he had found out when the job offer had gone out and it was prior to the conversation he had with me. VLS: Are you familiar with Pennington’s education background and experiences? LT. PECAR: Only from what Adam had indicated to us or me that I think he just got back from [illegible] meeting certified to be an instructor. I know that he’s not pump certified. That I found out from just what Adam had found out and that he doesn’t have Fire Officer I. Those are the things that I think are common knowledge that has been out there since this all went down. VLS: The certifi – not being a certified instructor, you are a certified instructor? LT. PECAR: I was. I have taken the class and I was certified. I let it lapse when I stopped teaching at the Academy. But all I had to do was go and take the test and I would be certified. VLS: Why do you believe that certification as an instructor is – do you believe that’s an important qualification for the job? LT. PECAR: Well, your training, I would say yeah. I mean that’s – again, that may have been the one lacking thing that I had is that the way the training officer’s certifications are now to get to the end of the, to get the mack daddy of the training - 29 - officer, you have to have a degree. So I wouldn’t have been able to have that. But, I taught for six years in the Fire Academy and I was really good at it. I just got tired of it. I just decided that I’m not doing it anymore and started working on another different job. VLS: You also mentioned that it was your understanding that Pennington was not a pump operator, did not have that certification. LT. PECAR: Not State certified. VLS: Do you believe that that’s an important certification for someone in the instructor position? LT. PECAR: Well, I do believe that you have to have some working knowledge, but I don’t think that’s really what the big issue is, is that technology today, this day right now, with our SOPs. He’s not allowed to drive our fire trucks. VLS: With your Standard Operating Procedures? LT. PECAR: Yeah, what we do, he’s not allowed to drive the fire truck. He can’t actually pump the fire if he had to. So, I think that’s kind of important. I mean I don’t think, you know, when you’re a small department like we are, I think that, you know, your hats change from day to day. You may have to step up and do something like that and really, he’s really not supposed to according to what – our standards. VLS: Do you know whether there has been – he has signed up for or taken the course work to become a pump operator? LT. PECAR: I don’t know. I know that somebody said he was in Ocala taking instructor the other day, or like a week or two ago. I didn’t ask him. I just – somebody said he was there. VLS: You also mentioned State of Florida Fire Officer I. Is that – you are – have that certification? LT. PECAR: I do. VLS: And what is the – what does certification as Fire Officer I, what’s the significance of that? LT. PECAR: They have changed the curriculum a little bit, but at the time, there was, I think there was nine classes that you had to take. One of them being Hazmat, and then a strategy and tactics, and instructor was one of them, building construction is one of them, incident command is one of them. So you have to take all these classes and then you have to sit for a test that encompasses parts of each one of those classes. Now since then, they’ve changed it. They’ve limited it down to less classes and then put some of those classes in Fire Officer II. And so I’m actually – it would probably almost be – I probably could sit for Fire Officer II right now if I wanted to because the other ones are stuff that’s in my investigator series. So, taking that and getting that - 30 - certification just means that you’ve taken the classes that were required at the time and you’ve passed the test. VLS: Do you believe that being certified by the State of Florida a Fire Officer I would be important to the position of Battalion Chief training? LT. PECAR: Yeah. I mean it’s a benchmark that the State has said is important and, you know, if I finish, if I did finish the degree, those classes are a part of that degree, the Fire Service degree. So, I don’t know if Chief Pennington has a degree and if he does, I wouldn’t know if it’s in Fire Service or Management or anything, but I think that having a degree in Fire Service, or having Fire Officer I, which in our department, it seems to be the equivalent. When I became an officer as a lieutenant, Fire Officer I or a degree was what was needed. VLS: Needed in order to be a lieutenant? LT. PECAR: To be a lieutenant. VLS: How have, over the years, have you received good performance evaluations? LT. PECAR: I have, I have had exemplary performance evaluations. I have only had one needed improvement and it was from my Battalion Chief on A shift when I got moved to A shift. And, I really think it was more than a misunderstanding than it was a need of improvement, but I can tell you or I can show you of letters he has given me especially after he left of how he felt about my performance and I think that if he could take anything back it would be that because that was the only time in 24 years that I’ve ever had a need improvement on anything. VLS: Have you ever been the subject of a disciplinary action. LT. PECAR: I had an oral reprimand from the old Training Chief which was his, you know, was his prerogative, for not finishing a Target Solutions class. VLS: An oral reprimand, is that something that would even show in your personnel file? LT. PECAR: Probably not. I don’t know where that would be. It would be, I don’t know what file you got to look at, but there is also one in the Chief’s office. And, it probably ended up in there. It wasn’t a big deal. I told them I disagree with it. I told my Battalion Chief I disagreed with it. I was on vacation and working on CAD every day for like two weeks and I did that class the first day I had a chance which was the day of the next month and he came in that afternoon and gave me a reprimand. So you do all these extra things and that’s how you get, that’s how you get, you know. VLS: Who was the Training Chief at the time? LT. PECAR: Bill Moyer. - 31 - VLS: And he was the one who left the City and created the vacancy that Pennington has now taken on? LT. PECAR: That’s correct, yes. VLS: Was he an outside hire? LT. PECAR: Yes. He worked for Golden Gate which is now Greater Naples. I think he was then, he was their Training Chief as well. We dealt with him a lot because he did some training. Our TRT teams work together and so he was, he was here an awful lot doing stuff like that. VLS: And was he considered to be a good Training Chief? LT. PECAR: You know, I kind of liked him because of – you know, he had, he was, he had this incredible ability to memory. He just remembered everything. He was just so good at that. But the one thing he lacked was his understanding of this is a fire department which serves the community. And, whenever we went into training it was like we had to disconnect ourselves from doing our job and that was a problem me and him always had. We always butt heads because, you know, we go to a training call or we would do some work, I would be listening to my radio and he was like, you don’t have to do that. I’m like, yes I do. I’m on duty and that’s more important than this is so I’m sorry. And he did not like that, but other than that, I think he had a hard time dealing with that because I think all of the lieutenants, especially Station 2 lieutenants, felt the same way in that we had, you know, we had a job to do and that comes first. VLS: Is there anything – well, let me ask you this. Have you had interaction with Training Chief Pennington since his arrival? You did mention one meeting where, you know, one situation where you were over in the Station and overheard a conversation. LT. PECAR: Yeah, that was – VLS: But that wasn’t something really a direct interaction. Have you directly interacted with him? LT. PECAR: A few times. He’s done some training with us. I made a point to go in and introduce myself when he started and to make sure he knew that, you know, that I was one of the guys that was trying to get the position and that I had really no animosity towards him whatsoever and, you know. I don’t agree with what happen and I don’t agree with being – I don’t like being lied to, but it is what it is and I’m not going to cry over spilled milk. I’m going to go and do my job just like I’ve done every other day I come in this place. So, and I wanted him to know that. VLS: How would you describe your interaction since? LT. PECAR: Professional. That’s – I say hi to him. I don’t, I don’t have any bad feelings towards him. I mean I don’t even, like I said, I haven’t seen him enough to be able to make a good determination of how well he is going to do. - 32 - VLS: Did you ever say anything to the Chief or did the Chief ever say anything to you after you learned of the fact that Pennington had been hired and hired previous to your conversation? LT. PECAR: Not immediately but he took me into his office a week ago and had a conversation with me. VLS: What did he say? LT. PECAR: He wanted to explain himself. VLS: What did he say? LT. PECAR: He said that, he said kind of the same thing he said to me when he told me in the other meeting. He said that he had a lot of respect for me. He wanted to explain himself and why he chose Chief Pennington over me. He felt that his EMS background was way too important to overlook and I don’t really, I can’t really speak for his EMS background because you know, I wasn’t over there. I don’t know what he has done. I’ve been a paramedic for 20 years so, nearly 20 years probably, maybe even more. So I have extensive EMS background. But, whatever, that’s his opinion and he – I felt like, I felt like he was trying to win me over. That’s what it felt like to me. VLS: Did he say any – was that a meeting that he specifically called or were you there? LT. PECAR: I was the Battalion Chief. VLS: You were the acting Battalion Chief? LT. PECAR: Uh huh and it was like 7:00 or so. I was still working and I was just getting ready to leave and he was still there and he said, can I talk to you? I said sure and I was just looking at him. He said, come on. And then, so he made me get up from my chair and go sit in his room which was fine. He closed the door and I said, oh, it’s a closed door. And he just kind of chuckled and he, so he just started explaining his point of view and why he did what he did. And I pretty much told him the same thing I just told you. I said sir, I didn’t appreciate being lied to. VLS: What did he – did he say anything about – let me start all over again. You’ve indicated that you believe that he lied to you because on that Friday he had already offered the job to Pennington and because he told you that HR had a problem with your not having a degree, is that correct? LT. PECAR: That’s the two, that’s the two that I have a problem with, yes. VLS: And did he address either of those issues? LT. PECAR: Yes. - 33 - VLS: How did he address them? LT. PECAR: Well, he didn’t address the degree one because I really didn’t want to, at that point, I really didn’t want to talk about but, you know, he was the one talking and I said, sir, I didn’t appreciate being lied to. And he goes, what do you mean? And I was like, well, because I know you had already offered Chief Pennington the job and so he disagreed with that and told me when he put in his notice and I said, I just told him, sir it really doesn’t matter. It’s – it doesn’t matter because it’s done, it doesn’t matter. I told him that I lost a lot of respect for him and that I just, just didn’t think it was right. VLS: So he denied having offered Pennington the job? LT. PECAR: He denied that he accepted the job until he made the decision. That’s what he denied. But I don’t, you know, I think it’s all semantics. VLS: Anything else that occurred during that conversation that’s noteworthy? LT. PECAR: Well, he told me how much he appreciated what I do and said how good I did and that he looks forward to seeing me over in the Battalion Chief’s office which there isn’t even a position available so I’m not really sure where that came from, but, you know, I pride myself on my integrity and what I do and how I do it and so, you know, as, as meaningless as it was that he said it, it kind of made me feel good. A little bit. VLS: Have you had any further communications with the Chief since then about the issue of promotion? LT. PECAR: No. That was the first communication we had since it happened. He didn’t come to me beforehand and say what he was going to do or why he did it. This was the first time. I didn’t really expect it. It was really kind of surprising especially with what’s going on. I didn’t expect to have that conversation with him that day at all. I would have expected it beforehand. I would have, not expected it, but I would have appreciated it beforehand. You know, the day after that it happened, I don’t care it was anytime, it would have been nice to have been told. But, it never got even addressed or brought up at all, and I’ve been in that office a lot, so. VLS: Anything else that you think is important to my investigation as it relates to the selection of Pennington and or how you were treated in the process. LT. PECAR: I guess I only have a comment. To me, it really is a thorn in the side when you’re lied to. That to me is really, as far as I’m concerned, it was the straw that broke the camel’s back for me, and all the stuff we’ve talked about has been going on and on and on and I just, you know, put it aside and just keep doing my job, but this was just, yeah, it hurt a little bit, because I would have rather he told me, “listen, I think somebody else would be better.” If he would have told me that before it happened; I mean, it’s his prerogative, he can hire whoever he wants. Just like Denise said, or Human Resources said, you know, you don’t have to have a degree, he can do whatever he wants. I would say they have to be certified and be at least qualified to do the job and do it right, but, there’s nothing in the bargaining or anything that says he has - 34 - to hire from within the department, so he could have done whatever he did and I only have a real problem with the way he did it; he lied to me. I just think it says volumes for the man and the way he is operating. I think I’m held to a higher standard and I think he needs to be held to it as well. VLS: Okay. Let’s go back to point 3 and the letter that states the Chief has made misrepresentations, exaggerations and lied. Are there other examples of misrepresentations, exaggerations and lies that you’re aware of? LT. PECAR: I don’t think there’s anything I could point out that we haven’t discussed already. VLS: Okay. LT. PECAR: I think the whole thing with the airport is a big mess and I think he started all that, but I don’t think there’s anything I can point to. VLS: Okay. I really haven’t touched on that so I would like to get a basic idea of what you’re talking about, the airport, and what he has done that led to the mess. LT. PECAR: It steps into 4 a little bit so I’ll tell you what I know and my opinion, I guess. VLS: Okay. LT. PECAR: The rift between the airport and fire department started when there was a fire in East Naples, Greater Naples, and the Director of Airport Operations wanted one of our guys on the fire truck that’s stationed at the airport to go over and give them a hand and we just don’t do that, that way. And so that started it all. But instead of trying to smooth it over and fix it, it seemed like we just fanning the flames and it just got way out of control. So, now we’re doing what we did before I worked here; we’re only covering the airport for a portion of the time that, for 15 hours instead of full hours, or full days, and I guess some of the departments probably heard about it because they’re going to be getting some overtime out of it, so they’re working more but they’re getting a raise. But I don’t think it’s the best way to do it. Again, that’s my opinion. VLS: Okay. What is the current situation? And, understand, although I’ve been conducting interviews, I am not a Naples resident, so I don’t keep up on your news. LT. PECAR: Alright, I’ll do the best I can to explain it as easy and simple as I can. The airport is open for operations 24/7. But, their aircraft control tower is only open from 7:00 in the morning until 10:00 at night. So, no commercial flights would be able to come in at that time, if we had commercial, which we’re getting ready to have commercial flights. So, now we have to have that coverage from those guys, from the fire trucks, or at least one of them. So, what the City and the airport has decided, is to man the department and the station and the trucks, only at the time that the aircraft control tower is open. - 35 - VLS: So, only from 7:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. LT. PECAR: So, now, like today, the guys that are out there at 10:00 close the station and come to my station. Then they get on one of my trucks. Now, what the City has done in regards to that, is instead of charging all day what we’re charging for the fire protection, they’re charging them just the overtime rate for whoever is working. And those guys really aren’t working out there; they’re working at my station, and when they leave they come here and those guys go home. And the reason why they’re doing that, is because not everybody is qualified to work out there. So that way they get normal qualified people that are supposed to be out there and then they come into town and they get on my tower and they go to bed. Next morning at 7:00 or 6:30 they get up, they drive back to the station, open the station back up. That’s how it’s working right now. Before I was a fireman, before I was here, that’s what they did. So, we’ve gone 25 years back and gone the way we were before. VLS: So, they are only stationed at Station Three, so Station Three is only being manned from 7:00 until 10:00. LT. PECAR: Yes. Now, what the City gets out of that, is they get two extra guys in town. So, the Chief who was trying to get more people, actually kind of did; he got two more people at the expense of paying overtime from the airport. Now, what the airport is gaining is, I’m not sure what the amount is compared to what they were paying, but now they’re just paying labor costs. And, when I say that, is because it’s overtime, the way our contract is, is that our overtime is not pensionable and so, the airport doesn’t pay for the cost of the insurance for those guys and they don’t have to pay for pension or for any of that stuff, so, they’re just paying strictly labor costs. So, they’re gaining a little bit too; they’re not having as much coverage, but my understanding is, is that they save a little bit of money. VLS: Okay. LT. PECAR: But they don’t have the coverage and we do have calls out there, and, even after 10:00. So, now they have to wait for us to drive from my station, which is probably an 8 or 9 minute response to get out there, if there is something going on. And, again, I know we were talking about that, but I have a feeling, I just felt like it could have been handled better because there was just a giant struggle, I don’t know, it just seemed like it didn’t have to end up this way. Personally, that’s just my opinion. VLS: Handled better in terms of how the Chief interacted with Council? LT. PECAR: Council and the Director of Operations of the Airport. VLS: Okay. Are you aware of any misrepresentations or exaggerations or lies that the Chief made in his interactions with Council as it relates to the airport issue? LT. PECAR: No, I wouldn’t be aware of anything because I really don’t think I paid enough attention to every step that was going through; I just know that, it just seemed….you know, every couple years, the airport says that they’re gonna look at - 36 - another fire department demand to man the station. Up until this year, they did, but I guess through City ordinance they’re not even allowed to, and so, I didn’t know that and I’ve been here for a while. So, every year they do this; go back and forth thing and they always come back to, “yeah, yeah, the City’s gonna be the fire department of record here,” and it never becomes anything more than that. Except this time. This time it was just, it was like somebody was pouring gas on the whole situation, the whole time, and it just seemed to get out of control. The only thing I can point to is, the only person that’s different than the last 25 years. And so, I just feel like it was out of control mostly because lack of want. I think ultimately he saw he was gonna get two extra guys, and that’s what he was shooting for. VLS: Are you aware of any misrepresentations, exaggerations or lies he made to the Airport Director, which is Ted Soliday? LT. PECAR: Ted Soliday? No, nothing that I would be privy to at all. VLS: Okay. LT. PECAR: Maybe if I was still out there I would be a little more, you know, with my finger on it, but, it’s a very different place out there. It’s like a whole other….. VLS: Is it? LT. PECAR: Yeah. Very different place. VLS: Anything else that you think goes to the third point in the letter that the Chief has made misrepresentations, exaggerations and outright lied, creating a lack of trust between the Chief and fire rescue personnel? LT. PECAR: No, I think we’ve covered about everything I can think of. VLS: Okay. Alright, and the fourth point in the letter is that the Chief has attempted to influence and otherwise cause the Union to undermine some City objectives. Do you believe that that is an accurate statement? LT. PECAR: Yeah, but not from directs, like, he didn’t ask me, but when I was a Union officer, I know that there was things that he was trying to get us to get involved in, that we really shouldn’t have been in and we didn’t. VLS: Okay. When were you a Union officer? LT. PECAR: Up until, I guess it was October was when, I was the Treasurer. VLS: Okay. You were the Treasurer until October 2014? LT. PECAR: No, 2015, it was just a month or two ago. VLS: Oh. Okay. - 37 - LT. PECAR: But, I was the silent officer. I mean, I took care of a lot of stuff that the Union did; there was financial and record keeping and stuff like that. As far as what was going on, Adam and Chris handled the management part of dealing with Chief McInerny and stuff; I did not partake in a lot of that most of the time, because I have two other jobs as well as being an officer, so it’s tough to find the time to do a lot of those things and I just never really wanted to anyways, so I just left it hands-off. But they did keep me in the loop on certain things and I was … VLS: Understanding that you may not have been directly involved with the communications, what do you understand that the Chief did to attempt to influence or cause the Union to undermine City objectives? LT. PECAR: He wanted us to do public record searches on council members and Ted Soliday and things like that, to look for stuff, and that just didn’t…luckily, Adam’s pretty sharp; he knew that would be a bad idea and we didn’t get involved. VLS: Okay. So, the Union did not get involved. LT. PECAR: Not that I know of, no. VLS: Do you know whether the Chief put anything in writing as far as the request? LT. PECAR: No. I don’t think he did either. I give him a lot more credit than doing something stupid like that. VLS: Anything else? LT. PECAR: No, I just know that that happened and when it got brought to my attention; I know that another department did do some of that stuff, but we didn’t, so… VLS: Okay. LT. PECAR: That to me does undermine the City’s objectives, when you’re trying to go around; I think you are doing that, right or wrong or indifferent, I just don’t think it was a good idea and I’m glad we didn’t get involved. VLS: Okay. Anything else on the fourth point? LT. PECAR: No. Like I said, I knew about that, I’m sure there’s plenty, but nothing that I would be privy to. VLS: Okay. Have you ever been involved in any of the ISO evaluations? I don’t know if I put that correctly. I understand there’s an ISO evaluation process that takes place periodically. LT. PECAR: I don’t believe I really had any direct contact with those people. I was aware of them being here and part of the process, and in fact, that’s when that water, the lack of water issue came to a head. That was part of it, trying to get that fire boat - 38 - with the big pump, was in response to the fact that we were having water pressure issues down south. But, I don’t think I had any…I wasn’t doing bunker gear back then, I was doing haz-mat, and so, they wouldn’t have really talked to me, I don’t think, about anything. VLS: Do you have any issues with any other promotions that the Chief has made during his tenure? LT. PECAR: Well, I didn’t want to become Fire Marshall, but where was some people that did. And, I did find it kind of odd that a guy who was just an Inspector got promoted, but I guess maybe if I had been wanting to be the Fire Marshall I’d have more to say about it, but I didn’t; that’s not something I ever wanted to do. So… VLS: So, the person who was promoted, was it Bob Rogers? LT. PECAR: Yeah. VLS: And, he’s the current Fire Marshall? LT. PECAR: Yeah. But I mean, it happened before that too. It wasn’t just him. I don’t think the other Fire Marshall was, I’m not sure when he got promoted, I don’t think McInerny promoted him, I think it was somebody else; I think it was Chief McAvoy. Larry was the same thing, we had guys this time, though, that wanted it and were qualified, and well-qualified. VLS: Do you know who put in for the Fire Marshall position? LT. PECAR: Yeah, Ruzanicki did, I’m pretty sure, because he was an Inspector before he was in Operations, and we all thought that would be a great position for him. I personally don’t have a lot of, I don’t want to say like, me and Dan, we have different views of how we do things, so, you know, maybe we have, you know, butt heads a little bit. I thought being the Fire Marshall would be a perfect position for him. So, getting him out of operations would have been good. I think that’s where he started and I think he’s good at that. So, I’m pretty sure he put in for that position and didn’t even get offered it I don’t think. VLS: Is there anything else, I’m understanding that my directive, the reason I’ve been retained, is to look into the allegations that were raised about Chief McInerny in that October 21 letter, is there anything else that you believe should be brought to my attention, or any documents that you believe I should look at that you have access to? LT. PECAR: Well, no documents. I think I’ve said everything that, I mean things that I have problems with are things you asked me about, so… VLS: Okay. Well, I would remind you that I’ve given you my card and at least during the time period that this inquiry is ongoing, if there is something else that occurs after this interview or anything that you believe may be relevant to the directive I’ve been given, I welcome you to contact me by e-mail or call me, to the extent that you would be - 39 - providing me information. By phone, verbally, we’d probably need to set up a way to record it just to follow the protocol, or send an e-mail. LT. PECAR: Can I ask you a question off the record? VLS: Sure. And, if we are concluded with this interview then I will turn off the recorder and it is about 11:30 on December the 8th. It is about 11:32, I’m back on the record with Lt. Pecar and there’ one additional thing after the interview that he brought to my attention and I’m just going to ask him to describe it; he brought it up to me as something that struck him as being inappropriate, if I mischaracterized that I’m sure I’ll let you know, so why don’t you put on the record the situation that you described off the record. LT. PECAR: Ok. Yeah, inappropriate is a good description of it. I was in the office when I was explaining some difficulties with some of the CAD programming and the people and the Motorola when I explained we were being told some things, how they were gonna be and whether they were right or wrong, the Chief had made the mention that we should be on a long train ride and that we should go to the showers and get cleaned up, and I felt that was a reference to the Holocaust and was quite surprised. VLS: And where did that conversation take place? LT. PECAR: It happened in the BC’s office, if I remember correctly. VLS: Was anyone else present? LT. PECAR: I believe, possibly, BCD and Maria might have been there. VLS: Okay. Anything further that occurred in that conversation? LT. PECAR: No. VLS: Okay. I guess we will now conclude your interview. It is 11:34. - 40 - RECORDED INTERVIEW OF BATTALION TRAINING CHIEF PHIL PENNINGTON ON 12/08/15 VLS: Today is December 8, 2015 and I’ll introduce myself as Vicki Sproat, a Fort Myers attorney who has been retained by the City of Naples to conduct an inquiry into certain allegations that have been raised concerning Chief Steve McInerny in a letter that the Union sent to the City Manager on October 21 and we are currently sitting in the conference room in City Hall and I have asked Battalion Chief Phil Pennington to appear and give an interview today. Do you understand that I am going to record this interview? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yes. VLS: Before we get started I want to make a couple of statements. First, City policy requires employees who are involved in an inquiry or investigation to be forthright, truthful and cooperative in providing information. Do you understand that? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yes. VLS: And you also understand that it would be contrary to City policy for there to be any retaliation against an employee for participating in an inquiry or investigation? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yes. VLS: And you understand that if you feel that you have been retaliated against in any way, because you have participated in this inquiry that you should notify the Human Resource Department? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Okay. VLS: And with that mind, let me ask you to state your full name. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Phillip Warren Pennington VLS: And what is your current position with the City of Naples Fire and Rescue? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Battalion Chief of Training and EMS VLS: How long have you held that position? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Started 9/28 I think was my first day. VLS: Of 2015? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Correct. VLS: What are your duties as Battalion Chief of Training and EMS? -1- BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I basically coordinate all the training, fire training, pretty much everything to do with emergency medical services, which includes EMS training, EMS records, safety, possibly infection control officer, and also I am liaison for the airport as well. VLS: Do whom do you report? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: To the fire chief. VLS: Who do you supervise? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Directly? Nobody. VLS: Do you have any administrative assistance? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Not directly with me, no. There is one secretary in the administrative assistance in the office but she is not dedicated to me. VLS: Where are your offices located? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: My office is around the corner from everyone else’s is. I’m like sequestered away. VLS: Okay your building is – BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I’m in the same building where – VLS: And that’s on Riverside Circle? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Correct. VLS: So, you are located in the same building as the Fire Chief, the Fire Marshall? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: The Fire Administration. All the administration is in the same building. The Fire Chief’s office is next to where the Battalion Chiefs are, or the administrative assistant is, and Fire Marshall and the inspection people are all on that side. And if you go out the hallway and around the corner, I am actually on the other side. VLS: So you are not, your office, you actually have to go through a hallway to get with the other administrators? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Correct. VLS: Were you, did you ever see the letter that the Union, October 21, 2015 letter from the Union to the City Manager about the Chief that requested or expressed a vote of no confidence? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: At what point? -2- VLS: At any point. Have you ever seen that letter? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Not when it originally came out, no. VLS: Have you seen it since? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yes. VLS: How did it come to your attention? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: The Fire Chief pointed it out to me. VLS: And when did the Fire Chief show you the letter? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I don’t remember the exact date. It had to be after it all came out. VLS: What did he tell in you in connection with the letter? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: He just asked me to look at it and given an opinion of what I thought. VLS: Were you able to give an opinion, or what was your response to the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I was actually surprised, to be honest. I have been in the fire service for 28 years and, ya know, I’ve seen good relationships, bad relationships between Union and the administration and I’ve never really saw anything like that before. VLS: Did you give any other opinions or advise to the Chief in connection with the letter? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: No. VLS: How, you’ve only been on the job for a little over three months now, two months, and how has your working relationship been with the other battalion chiefs? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Uh. VLS: I know that’s a broad question. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yeah, it is a broad question, I mean. I would have to say that it is – I feel comfortable with one. The other one is middle of the road and then there is one that I feel just doesn’t like the fact that I am here. VLS: Okay, and I am going to ask you for names. I know we’ve been getting very detailed in these interviews so, if you will identify the battalion chief and how you would describe that relationship. -3- BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Well the one I said seemed to have an issue with most is Chief DiMaria. VLS: And what types of issues have arisen in your interactions with Chief DiMaria? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Well, it started basically when I first got here. I made a request to the Battalions that, “uh hey, can you add me to your list, your daily list so I can get a copy of the line up?” Chief Bruener, Chief Nichols, no problem. Chief Dimaria, I didn’t get, I didn’t get it. So, finally, I was like, “Listen, ya know, can you give me the thing?” “Well, you know, you can get it off TeleStaff.” Well, I don’t always have TeleStaff on my phone. I might be someplace and the easiest way for me to get it is off of my e-mails because my e-mails are directed to my phone and I know that when I’m putting a training class together, if you tell me I’m getting Engine 1, now at least I can look to see who I am getting, ya know, who’s coming. And it was just like, ya know, I was asking so much. It kinda put me off a little bit to the point of, ya know why? It was easiest enough for the other two people to simply do what I asked. It wasn’t like I was asking a whole lot. A professional courtesy would at least dictate, since we are peers, we are at the same level, that ya know, if he asked me for something, I would give him a response and say, “Yeah, I’ll see what I can do and make sure that I take care of it for you.” Whereas, with him, it felt like that wasn’t happening. So, and I think just from that point forward its been kind of, we get along enough to coordinate things but you know, I just, my gut instinct and feeling from him is that he just doesn’t appreciate me being here. VLS: Have you had any direct discussions with him about where, if that is his attitude where it originates? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Well, I had another incident with two of his people where I was teaching a class and they, two officers, were getting phone calls, well one of them got a call during the middle of the class. Again, I was trying not to take things personally but when I’m teaching or if I’m a student in class, if I get a phone call, because, and I understand in the fire department, ya know there is operational needs, things going on. I understand. You might get a phone call if you are an officer. But, I know in the past, if I got a call on something, I would get up, excuse myself, leave the room or go someplace where I can be a little bit more quiet. One of the officers on the phone and the other officer, “What’s going on?” Then he started having a discussion in the middle of my class to the point where I stop what’s going on, because everyone is looking at what – VLS: You felt it was interrupting the class? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Correct. So, ya know, I let it go. He’s the new guy, be nice. So I went and I spoke to the two officers afterwards. VLS: And who were those officers? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Lt. Adamski and Lt. Nadelman. And I asked, “Just listen, don’t take this the wrong way, but I kind of got the feeling you guys were -4- purposely doing this to see, to kind of test me a little bit.” “Oh no no no.” Ya know, but I don’t know, it seems to me, just out of common courtesy that if you are disrupting somebody you excuse yourself. So they didn’t do it on purpose but, I had spoke to Chief DiMaria, I went to talk to him afterwords and was in the middle of texting somebody and accidently sent him a text that I was going to talk to them but I felt that might start at the top with these guys because he and I haven’t really cliqued. Him and I had a little confrontation about that as far as starting at the top. I said, “Yeah, I don’t think that these guys are giving me the proper amount of respect. If they like me, don’t like me, that’s their business but as far as operationally, as Battalion Chief I deserve a certain level of respect. If I’m teaching in front of a class, even if I’m a fire fighter, just out of common courtesy, this is how it happens. I’m coming here to tell you I spoke to your guys, not looking for discipline or all this other stuff. This is between us guys but ya know, you are their chief so I wanted to let you know.” So basically he told me he thought I was full of it. VLS: What did he say specifically? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I don’t remember the exact words but he basically, I remember to some degree he said, “I think you are full of shit.” I said, “Alright well, either way you and I have to work together so we have to figure out a way to maintain an operational relationship.” And that’s probably where it’s been ever since. VLS: And when was that incident with the training class where you have two officers that were improperly – BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I don’t remember the exact date, it was probably, it was one of the first classes I put together. So, probably a few weeks after I got hired. VLS: What classes have you taught? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I taught Advanced Airway Class for pediatrics, that the one that that occurred at. I just did an in-service with new hydraulic tools. Outside of that it has been me trying to catch up on all the things that go on. VLS: What has your relationship been with Battalion Chief Nichols since your arrival? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: He’s the one that I think is middle of the road. He offers me, ya know if I ask him for something, he is willing to do it, but ya know, my gut feeling is again, that he probably isn’t happy that I’m here, but at least is willing to work with me. VLS: Have you had any direct discussions about any resistance or reluctance on his part or on the department’s part to accept you into the position? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: No. VLS: The third battalion chief is Bruener? -5- BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Chief Bruener, correct. VLS: Can you describe your relationship, your interaction, rather with Chief Bruener since your arrival? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Him and I have seemed to be fine. If I ask him for stuff, he is willing to help, I try to help him. It has been, and he knows I’m from the outside, he just seems to be like, okay. VLS: Have you informed the Chief of any difficulties in your interactions with the other battalion chiefs? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yeah, he’s aware of it. VLS: Is that something you informed him of in writing or just in conversation? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: In person. VLS: How has your interaction with the Chief been since your arrival? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: We get along fine. VLS: Under what circumstances do you directly interact with the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: It depends on how things come through. Ya know if I get, let’s say, I got a request from the Chief from Collier County EMS about ALS stickers for our trucks. So I would, in that case I think I e-mailed him, “Hey I’m looking for this stuff, where can I find it?” And he’ll e-mail me back. Or, if I really need to go discuss it, or something, I’ll take it over and talk to him. I’m still trying to get my traction going, I guess I’m trying to understand exactly all the workings of things. There are a lot of times I’m not really sure what we’ve done in the past. A lot of times, certain things I’ll just go to the battalions and say, what have we done in the past? Where can I find this information? So I can look at it and try to make a determination and then usually, like anything and most of the stuff we do, like the hydraulic stuff I just did, I type up a memo on paper, training is completed. I stored the stuff here, this is where people, for a resource, can find it here. And I’d give it to the Chief for his approval. VLS: I want to ask you about your being hired by the City. Did you know the Chief prior to your applying for the position? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yeah, we worked together in Fort Lauderdale. VLS: That was your last place, you left a position in Fort Lauderdale to come to the City of Naples? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Correct. -6- VLS: You and the Chief had at one time also worked for the City of Fort Lauderdale Fire and Rescue? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Correct. VLS: During what years were you both employed by Fort Lauderdale? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: While I started there in ’94 and he was already working there when I started. VLS: And he left when? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I don’t remember. VLS: What was his position during the time period that you worked for Fort Lauderdale? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I was trying to remember, I think when I got there he was, I can’t remember if he was a battalion or a division. I think he was a division chief when I first got there. VLS: And I’m sure that Fort Lauderdale is set up differently than Naples. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yeah the hierarchy. VLS: What is the basic hierarchy in Fort Lauderdale? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Well you have your general section, you start off as a fire fighter. Then driver is a position. Then you have lieutenant which they just recently changed now to captain. Then you have battalion chief. Then you have division chief. Then you have, go back and forth with the different names, but it’s basically the same thing, deputy chief or assistant chief which means the same. And then you have the fire chief. VLS: So most of the time that you were both in Fort Lauderdale, Steve McInerny held the position of division chief? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: He was division chief. assistant chief. When he left he was VLS: As a division chief, what division was he the chief of? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Well he worked in different ones. When I was, he was the division chief of the shift that I worked on. Yeah, there is a division chief that oversees each particular shift. Over there, over in Fort Lauderdale, you had three different battalions because we had twelve stations. So each battalion had oversaw four stations. -7- VLS: So your battalion, or his battalion, both of your battalions was what was it labeled? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: No, he was a division. Division oversaw the three battalions who oversaw the – VLS: Oh I see. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yeah, each battalion underneath them. Or four stations underneath them. had three stations VLS: Alright. And he was a division chief over the battalion that you were assigned to. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: That I worked in, yes. VLS: And what battalion was that? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Back then it was District 2. And actually when I first started it may have still called it District 1 but it ended up being District 2. VLS: Okay. Did you just know the Chief in Fort Lauderdale on a professional basis or did you socialize? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Very rarely did we ever see each other outside of work and it was usually for some kind of fire department function. VLS: Did you stay in communication with the Chief after he left his position in Fort Lauderdale and became employed with Naples? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Not very frequently, like I told him I was applying for battalion position over in Fort Lauderdale. Ya know, I called, said, “Do you mind if I put you in as a reference?” He’s like, “Yeah sure that’s no problem.” VLS: When did you apply for the battalion position in Fort Lauderdale? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Actually twice. First time was, I’m trying to think, there was a few years in my personal life, it was kind of a blur. It was, probably in 2012 maybe? VLS: And the other time? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: That would have to be 2014 I think, it was either 2014 or early 2015. VLS: And in both of those, at the time, you were seeking both of those positions he was one of the people that you contacted? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I don’t remember if I contacted him the first time I did, but the second time I did. -8- VLS: How did you learn about the vacant position as training chief battalion in Naples. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Well, actually Chief McInerny called me, I guess, I don’t remember the exact time frame of how it all went down. He called me because he had an EMS question and I think at that point Chief Moyer (sp?) had already left and he had a question about some kind of report writing thing for the state and asked if I knew anything about it. I was like, “I can look into it for you.” He said to me, “Ya know, my guy left. I might be opening a test.” He asked me if I had ever considered leaving Fort Lauderdale. I said, “Actually, no I hadn’t really thought about it.” He was like, “Okay, if I open it up, do you think you’d be interested?” I said, “Well, I’ll think about it.” VLS: Might be opening a test? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yeah like testing for battalion chief. VLS: Was there testing involved for the position? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: It ended up no. It was just a matter of turning in a resume. And to be honest with you, it was, I figured I wouldn’t even get the job but I figured, if I just went and sat for the test it would be good practice for when if I decided to leave Fort Lauderdale after I reached full retirement and looked to go someplace that would be good to have that experience under my belt. VLS: You can’t place that conversation in terms of month? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I don’t remember exactly. VLS: And then there was BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: There was a lot of stuff going on in my personal life so. VLS: What was the next communication you had with Chief McInerny as it relates to a possible BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: It was a few weeks later that he contacted me, said, “Hey did you think about what I asked you about applying? Are you interested?” I said, “Yeah I thought about it.” He says, “Well, I am going to open it up. I’m taking people from the outside, looking at people from the inside. Ya know if you are interested, send me your resume.” So I put my resume together and sent it over. VLS: Did he give you any background in either of those two phone conversations about what anything in particular he was looking for in the battalion chief training? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Well he told me that they were in the process of getting some kind of survey done and he was kind of waiting on the results of that to see what he was looking for. Ways the department is set up. Ya know, he was looking -9- for someone with a good EMS background, somebody that had a good fire background as well. And just because of the nature, the way the department is set up. VLS: Did he tell you anything about any internal candidates within the department that had applied already? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: He didn’t tell me about anybody who was applying. VLS: And did you turn submit a resume in response to your conversation with the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yes. VLS: And I just want to, I’ve looked at your personnel file just to speed this interview along so I want to go through it. Is this the resume that you personally delivered to the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: It looks like it, yeah. VLS: Okay, any cover letter with that? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Honestly I don’t remember if I did or not. VLS: Do you recall when it was that you sent your resume? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I don’t remember when I sent it. I mean, I know, the only reason I remember this part of it is, I put my resume in with Fort Lauderdale, it was on September 11. VLS: That is easy to remember. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yeah, that is why I remember it. significant day for the fire department. But I don’t remember. It was a VLS: Do you know whether it was in August or September? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: If I had to guess, I’d probably say late August. VLS: I’m just going to mark as #1 the resume that you sent. Is the information that is contained in Exhibit 1, this resume, is it true and accurate at the time it was submitted? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Truthfully yeah. VLS: So, let’s just talk a little bit about your experience. At the time that you were applying, or considering employment with the City of Naples, you were working for the City of Fort Lauderdale Fire Rescue Department as an acting Battalion Chief? - 10 - BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Well, technically my position was Lieutenant which before I left was changed to Captain. I don’t remember if changed that on there or not because it wasn’t a promotion or anything like that, it was just a change in what they called us. But what I did was – VLS: I’m going to give that back to you. I have another copy to work with. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: What they do is when a regular assigned battalion chief is off for any reason, then they pull the people who are on the current list to be promoted and then they act those guys in the position. Now, from the time I made Lieutenant which was back in ’99 I think I made Lieutenant, basically, once I was off probation, I pretty much started acting as Battalion Chief but then in that process kind of evolved over the years and became more of a you either had to be in school to get your degree or you had to be on a list in order to be upgraded. So, like it says in here, I acted from 2000 until I left. Like when I was sitting for the test over there, I pulled my TeleStaff report and it was something like 50, it was greater than 50% of the time I was acting Battalion Chief. VLS: And who was the assigned battalion chief to your battalion? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Well it changed back and forth throughout my career. It wasn’t the same person. VLS: At the time you left, who was it? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Who was the battalion? I was at the District 35 so it was Chief Melany Snowwhite. VLS: And tell me about the, what was the station to which you were assigned. I realize this is acting battalion you would be over a number of different stations. But as a Captain or Lieutenant was there a particular fire station you were assigned to in the District? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yeah, when I left my I was, my last assignment on was Ladder 35. VLS: And what area of Fort Lauderdale? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: It was the North end of the city. Commercial Blvd. It was off VLS: Alright. You’ve got your education and work experience listed on your CV. I guess, in terms of education, you have a four year degree, a Bachelor of Science from Palm Beach Atlantic University. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Correct. - 11 - VLS: And you say that you have a Bachelor of Science in Organizational Management. What is that field of study? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: It is just basic management courses. Actually I graduated top of my class. But it was Palm Beach Atlantic University and then I got an award, Sum Cum Laude for MacArthur School of Leadership. VLS: And then, does the resume that you sent over also contain all certifications that you have achieved as the time that you applied? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Did I send copies of all those? VLS: No, just does this accurately reflects all your certifications? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Those are all the ones I could find that I still had in my record keeping. VLS: So those certifications. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I’m sure that there is more it is just all that I had available that I could think – but I went through was trying to look for the stuff that if I had to pull it out, I could prove that I had it. And I probably should have just got copies from my personnel file in Fort Lauderdale, there’s probably more in there. VLS: Have you received any additional certifications or sought any additional certifications since coming to Naples? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yes, actually I just finished up a class I took years ago that I had to redo, was Fire Service Instructor. Or its actually, in the city it’s called Course Delivery now. VLS: And where did you take that? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: In Ocala, at the State Fire Fighter’s. VLS: And have you achieved that certification or do you wait to test? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Well I finished their portion of it. There is actually another state test I have to do. VLS: And when did you go to the class at the fire college in Ocala? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I think it was this month, no, it was the end of November. I’ll see if I still have it in here, I might have deleted it earlier. VLS: How many hours was this class? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: It was, I think, actually I looked at the certification in the computer and the thing said 45 hours but I think it was scheduled to be a 40 hour - 12 - course because we were there Monday through Friday. Yeah, course delivery was November 16 through 20. VLS: And did the City of Naples pay for the course work? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yeah, yeah they did. VLS: Any other certifications that you have sought or finished since coming over to Naples? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I’m set to go this month to do the Live Fire Training Instruction. And then I think in January, I’m scheduled to go do the Wild Land Interface, or something like that. I didn’t do many forest fire over in Fort Lauderdale but apparently here you have to have it. VLS: The Fire Training Certification, where will that be offered? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: What do you, which one? VLS: The Fire Training Instructor? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: The Live Fire Training Instructor? VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: That’s going to up at North Naples or whatever they call themselves today. I forget what they changed their name to something else. VLS: Is there some kind of testing associated with that? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yeah, I believe so, yeah. VLS: Were those, was the Fire Safety – BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Fire Service Instructor? VLS: Fire Service Instructor, at the time you were hired, was it indicated that that would be required, that you would be required to obtain that? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I don’t think it was required that I obtain that, but it’s definitely something you should have. And like I said, I actually took the course years ago in Fort Lauderdale, and at the time, we were taking over EMS over there and because I was one of the lead training guys for the department there, they did it in house. , 760.50(5) but because we were so busy putting the EMS together, I never got to actually take the exam. But ya know, I was teaching at the time, I was teaching paramedic classes at the time at a private school. - 13 - VLS: What about the Fire Training Instructor? Is that something that was indicated to you that you need or should get? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Well, yeah. As the training chief you should, it would be better to get as many of these certifications as you possibly can so that when you put together an operation you can have a better understanding of what is expected. I mean we have fire fighter trainers already on the job, which I could utilize, but ya know, for me, personally, I would rather have that extra knowledge. VLS: But it wasn’t made a condition of employment? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Employment? No. VLS: So you forwarded your resume to the Chief and what happened next with respect to the hiring process? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I believe, ya know, I put it in. Didn’t hear anything for a little bit. Then, I think it was Robin Denis that contacted me and said they wanted me to come in for a conditional and do the back group check and do the physical. VLS: Who is Robin Denis? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: She works in, I guess its HR. VLS: And were you informed upon coming in that that was a conditional offer? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Conditional offer. VLS: And did that come to you in a letter? Where you contacted by Robin in a letter or by phone? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I think it was by a letter. VLS: I’m going to show you what we are going to mark as Exhibit #2. Is that the letter that you received informing you of the conditional offer of employment? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yes it is. VLS: Did you have any communications, e-mails, texts, phone, in person, with the Chief between the time that you submitted your resume and receiving the conditional offer of employment? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Not that I can think of. VLS: Did you talk to anyone else with the City of Naple in that time period? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Not that I can think of - 14 - VLS: So you had no idea that you might be, that you were going to be offered the position until you received the conditional offer of employment dated August 27, 2015? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Correct. VLS: Okay and when you received that letter, what did you do? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: It says right here, “Please report to Human Resources” so I believe – I had to have contacted somebody, I want to say it was Robin. That’s who I contacted to set up the coming in because actually we spoke and mixed up the days. I actually came a day early. I showed up and she was like, “You’re not supposed to be here until” “I thought we had set it for this date” and I think was happened was we went back and forth about which day to send because I was on shift and I must have left it in my phone for that date because I came straight off duty and came and got here. Yeah, so, I actually showed up a day early. VLS: What day did you end up meeting with HR? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I don’t know or remember. But I’m sure they have that information somewhere because they sent me over to do the fingerprints to do the background. VLS: The conditional offer of employment, what you needed to do involved – you did the physical exam and drug screen? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Correct. VLS: You did that over here? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Correct. VLS: Background information, background investigation including employment verification and reference checks. If, let me show you something. Let me ask you this, did you ever fill out a formal application? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I don’t remember but I’m pretty sure I did. Yeah. VLS: When was that application completed? marked as Exhibit “3”. I’m going to hand you what we’ve BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: It says on here today’s date is July 15. And it asks for my date of available August. VLS: Was the application completed before or after you sent your resume that we marked as Exhibit 1. Or maybe it was contemporaneous. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Contemporaneous? VLS: At the same time. I’m sorry. - 15 - BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: That’s okay, just making sure I understood it. I think, if I remember correctly, I put the application in first. VLS: So, someone must have sent you the application because it is specific to the City of Naples. Do you know who forwarded the application to you? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I think it was Steve McInerny. VLS: Did he, was it sent by e-mail? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I don’t remember. VLS: And you say today’s date on the application is July 15, 2015. Is that about the same date you would have returned it to the City of Naples? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I don’t know how long it took me to fill it out but I would assume it didn’t take me much longer than that. VLS: And to whom did you send the application to? Was it directly to the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I believe so. VLS: How long after that did you submit the resume? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I don’t think it was – it was later on because I think, like I said, I don’t remember the date that I actually sent it but I’m trying to piece it all back together. It had to be afterwords. Like I said, I didn’t know anything as far as, I was going to be hired, until I got the conditional letter. I think this was the last thing, this went in first then I guess they wanted the resume to back up. VLS: Now, I’m looking at the second page of the application which refers to your current or most recent employer and it says City of Fort Lauderdale Fire Rescue and it says reason for leaving “retiring”. Where you planning on retiring from that position or did you mean retiring from that position if I get this job? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yeah, we’re talking if I got the position. VLS: Okay you were at a point in your career that you could retire. Understood. So after you received the conditional offer of employment, came over and underwent the physical exam and testing. Did you happen on that visit to meet with the Chief? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I think we met briefly to let him know that I was in town and that I had turned in everything. VLS: Did you meet anyone else with the fire department other than the people in the HR department with the folks that you needed to meet with in order to complete the exam and background checks? - 16 - BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: One of them was, I met Robin, I think. Yeah, cause I had to come here, met with her I believe. Then she sent me to the medical, or actually I had to go to PD first to do the finger prints and stuff there. And then I went to do the physical. VLS: Did you ever get this document? It’s entitled “Informational Bulliten”. It was in your personnel file. I don’t know if you ever saw that document. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: No, I just want to understand. Did I see it before? Yeah, it looks familiar. VLS: Okay, is that something that you would have been sent by the Chief prior to getting the conditional offer of employment? Or did you see it afterwards? I’m just trying to – BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: To be honest, I don’t remember if I saw it before or after. It looks familiar, like I know I’ve seen it but I don’t remember --VLS: Okay, we’ll just go from there. I’ll just mark that as #4. Alright. So, when did, I guess when you received the conditional offer of employment, you assumed that you would have the job if you met the conditions. I mean, that’s how you excepted. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Well, yeah. VLS: And did you communicate, when did you first communicate to the Chief that you were interested in the position? That you wanted it. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: To put an exact date on it, I can’t be 100% sure. I mean, looking at all this stuff, obviously if I’m putting in an application then I’m interested. VLS: But you signed the conditional offer of employment on September 2, 2015, correct? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: That’s what it shows. conditional offer? Do I still have the conditional offer? Which one is the VLS: Maybe not. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: There it is. Yeah. VLS: The conditional offer of employment dated August 27, 2015 does state specific benefits and conditions including your annual salary, your starting date and your probationary period, correct? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: On this one? VLS: Yes. - 17 - BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: What is it that you want to know? I’m sorry. VLS: Well, it does. You knew at the time that you signed this what you were being offered in terms of your annual salary, your probation period, when you would be starting? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yes, well this one says when I’ll be starting? I don’t think it says when I would start. VLS: Okay, just pending physical and drug screening. Alright, when did you notify the City of Fort Lauderdale that you would be leaving their employment? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: September 11. Like I said before, it was the day I remember because it was September 11. VLS: Alright. And between the time that you signed the conditional offer of employment on September 2, 2015 and when you told the City of Fort Lauderdale that you would be leaving their employment, did you have any communications with Chief McInerny? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I can’t remember any specific ones. mean I didn’t. I just don’t remember any specific conversations. Doesn’t VLS: You never had any formal interviews with Chief McInerny for the position? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: No. VLS: When you were informed by anyone at the city that you had met the conditions of employment, meaning the physical exam, the drug screening, the background investigation? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Again, I can’t remember the exact date but I would have to imagine it was probably only a couple of days before the 11th. Because it had to go through the whole physical, and waiting for the results because that takes, the PPD and all the stuff you have to do wait three days. I had to use the full three days because I had to get somebody back east to read it and send a copy over here and then it was like trying to get in touch with the lady, to make sure she got it. It’s been a couple days after that. VLS: When you received the conditional offer of employment from the City, were you aware of any other candidates internally or externally that had applied for the position? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I knew it was open but, are you asking, did I personally know anybody that applied? VLS: Or whether anyone had communicated to you that there were other external or internal candidates? - 18 - BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: No. VLS: Have you since receiving the conditional offer of employment, learned whether there were internal candidates for the position? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Since I’ve been hired? VLS: Yes. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yes. VLS: And do you know who the internal candidates are that applied for the position? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I don’t remember all of them. And I want to say the only two that come to mind I believe was Jerry Pecar and I want to think Steve Kofsky, maybe. I know he helped me out when he first got here. Steve Kofsky helped me with some of the stuff when I first got here. I can’t remember whether he told me he applied or not. I know Jerry told me he applied. VLS: And how is your relationship been with Jerry since you’ve come on board? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I haven’t had any problems with Jerry. VLS: So it was a cordially conversation when he informed you that he had also applied for the position? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yes. VLS: And same with Kofsky? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Hmmhmm (affirmative). VLS: Do you believe that you are qualified, now that you have started the position, that you are qualified for the position for Battalion Chief of Training? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yes. VLS: Have you ever seen a job description. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Honestly, no. VLS: I’m just going to go over with you the points that were in the Union’s October 21 letter to see if you have any information that may be relevant to the allegations that were made. The first numerated allegation in the Union’s October 21 letter is that “The Chief has misled the community and staff. In particular, he has created the misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities.” Is there anything that you have learned or observed since you’ve been employed here that leads you to believe that the Chief has misled the community or city staff by creating a misimpression of need with regard to apparatus and facilities? - 19 - BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Nope. VLS: The second bullet point, or second numerated point of the Union’s letter is that “The Department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity.” Is there anything that you have observed or heard of since you have started with the City of Naples to support that allegation? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: No. VLS: The third numerated point of the Union’s letter was that “The Chief has attempted to influence and otherwise cause the Union to undermine some City objectives.” Do you have any information related to that? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: No. Could you read that one one more time? VLS: “The Chief has attempted to influence and otherwise cause the Union to undermine some City objectives.” BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: No, but I can tell you this. My first meeting with the Union president, Nadelman – VLS: Yes BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Basically, I can’t say it word for word, but basically he told me, “Yeah we heard nothing but good things about you. But, you know, don’t take it personal, we don’t like you being here.” VLS: Okay, when was this? What was the context of your first meeting? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: He was acting shift battalion and so I went in to introduce myself, so we could get to know each other obviously. So we start talking, tried to tell me, “Listen, I understand, I’ve been on both sides of this. I’ve been in a department where we’ve hired people from the outside. Ya know, guys tend to not be too excited about. But know, understand, I’m here to assist the department. I have a lot of experience I’m trying to bring here and trying to make this a better place. Everything I’ve done in my career, I’ve tried to excel at. I’ve put all I can into it. I graduate top of my class from the Fire Academy. Scored #1 on my lieutenant’s test. Graduate top of my class in college. So, ya know, I have a certain work ethic that I think I bring to the table. Ya know, I didn’t come here to pad my stats, I didn’t come here for this to be a stepping stone. Ya know, for me, I had a lot of personal stuff going on and this was an opportunity for me to get myself back into where I was. There was probably a three year period in my life where everything was put on a back burner. And, ya know, I personally and professionally needed something to stimulate me again and to me this was an opportunity – like I said, I really honestly didn’t expect to get the job. I thought this would be an interview and there probably would be somebody from the inside that would get the job and ya know, it would just be a good experience for me just to, having gone through interviews over there. The more you do it the more comfortable you get - 20 - with it. So, that is really how I approached it. And so, this is what I tried to explain to him. That hey, I’m here to help. I’m not here to damage anything or cause upheaval. I’m really focused on trying to better the department. VLS: What was his reaction? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Well that’s basically when I got the, “Ya know, don’t take this personal, but we don’t like ya.” Ya know, that’s basically what it came out to be. And so it’s like, well how do I not take that personal. How do I not think that well, obviously you are not going to support me so, it just felt like I was put into a defensive position right off the bat. That, well ya know, I can understand you guys being upset but, let’s face it, the reality is, plenty of fire departments hire people from the outside. It’s not an uncommon practice. Professional sports teams hire and fire coaches left and right, or get rid of assistant coaches and bring other guys in. It happens everywhere in business. It doesn’t matter where you are at. Sometimes you need a breath of fresh air or whatever. You know, I didn’t make that decision. If I put myself in a position, if I were fire chief, ya know, not here or anywhere, if I was fire chief, if I had certain objectives, ya know, a study came back that said I need this, ya know, and you look across the board and okay, what do I have available. Alright, on paper, this guy looks the best. That’s a decision that has to be made at whatever level. That’s part of the responsibility you get when you decide to move up the chain. Like I said, there have been a couple incidences here where I think people are trying to undermine what I’m trying to accomplish in order to prove a point. VLS: I’d like to know what other situations, other than those you may have already shared with me at this interview where you feel like your position or your, yeah, or your position is being undermined. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Okay, Lt. Adamski has a tendency to come to me with issues. First time was about the hazmat team. We don’t get enough of this and training and that. Okay, well come to my office and we’ll talk about it. Alright, I’m new. What have you guys done in the past, let me figure out what you are doing and where I need to go. Well, ya know we train on Fridays. The other departments train on these days. We don’t train with them. Okay, well, why don’t you train on those days. Because we only train on Fridays. Okay, let me look into it. Let me reach out to some of my resources to find out exactly what we need. So, I reached out to people I know that are hazmat specialists. And asked them what does the state require, where do I need to look for things? Basically they tell me the NFIRS is basically the state guideline and they follow these drills that will meet the requirements. Okay, well that’s what they are doing so, okay. So apparently we are meeting as a minimum what we are supposed to be doing. To come to me and say, well we only train on Fridays, well guess what? Ya know, we can’t only train on Fridays if we’re a group. We have to rely on other teams. Ya know I am not a hazmat specialist, but I know enough about special ops to know how it works. I was actually trying to get on the Hazmat team in Fort Lauderdale. I was in Hazmat School and then Fort Lauderdale took over EMS and he said, “You’re out. Ya know, you are an EMS guy, we need you for EMS.” So, I never got back in because I was busy doing all kinds of other training much like the rest of my - 21 - career. I had been involved, I had been in Level A suits and done drills and been on actual calls while I was going through school. So, I understand how things need to be operated. Hot zones, warms zones, cold zones. Entry team, we need a backup team. Those are basic principles of how things are run. We don’t have enough people to call like it’s supposed to so we rely on other departments to back us up. So, the idea that we don’t train with other people - comes in and basically tells me, well we aren’t going to train with other people. Well you can’t come to me with a problem and then if I tell you this is how we are going to address it, say that we don’t do this or that. It’s really going to come down to me making a decision through the fire chief on how we are going to do this. I’m not going to make wholesale changes without the fire chief and say, ya know I’ve got this issue, this is what I think I need to do, are you in agreement? It’s his department at the end of the day. So that was one issue. VLS: How was that ultimately – BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: It is still unresolved. I’m still working on it. I’m trying, through basically the County has meetings with – Training Chief’s meetings, so I am still getting my inroads with the other departments and trying to figure out, how we can coordinate and get together because I’ve been to a couple, two meetings so far, and everybody talks about getting together and train but so far none of us have got together to train. So I’m trying to get us there. Ya know what I mean? VLS: What are some other instances that where you felt undermined? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: The second one is more recent. Again, Lt. Adamsky sends me an e-mail about hazmat monitors. Tells me, again not knowing all the exact words, but I understood the overview, says to me, “We carry these monitors and I think we should use this one.” Okay, give me some background, ya know you’re the hazmat team leader. Give me some background on it. Tell me why and I’ll look into it and see what we can do. So, ya know, I also suggested, you should put something together since you are the team leader for the hazmat team and put something together and this way we can, I’ll help you put it together and we’ll make a presentation and get it out to all the guys on how to operate these machines. Oh no, I’m too busy for that. Okay, well then, again you’re the hazmat team leader. Designate one of your guys on the hazmat team that you should, because obviously as the team leader, you should be mentoring other people. My job as a training chief is to mentor people, help people get more comfortable in their positions, and you need to have a succession plan. You need to get everybody up to speed so that people can, somebody leaves, somebody can fill in. Ya know, designate one of your guys, have them do it. No, no I can’t do that. Well at least put something together and I’ll do it. Oh no, you can’t speak my words because you don’t understand it. Okay. So that’s three different things. But then, at the same time he tells me I can’t do it. He tells me in one of his e-mails how this is an engine company operation. Okay so you’re saying anybody can do it, but I can’t speak about it because I don’t know enough and you’re too busy to do it. It went back and forth to basically ya know, it gets very condescending in his e-mails and basically tells me, “Well you’re the training chief, you should do it.” - 22 - VLS: Okay, do you have, is that something you can provide me with copies of those emails? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yes. VLS: I’ve given you my card and things that might go to my e-mail go to a protected email site which is not to mean that sometime down the road, like anything that you do, could ultimately be public record, but it would be useful for me to have those e-mails you are referring to. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Okay. VLS: Okay, any other instances where since you’ve been over here in the training chief position that you felt undermined? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yeah. Another one was in reference to the driver’s test. Here, where I came from, the driver’s test was scheduled every two years and it was a competitive test. Meaning, you took a written and practical exam and then you were ranked based on that. Here, they call it a driver’s test but really it it’s not a test test because you’re not testing against anyone else, it’s just basically certification to say that you are capable of driving a fire trust. When I first got here, Steve Kofsky told me, “This is oh yeah, you might have to do a driver’s test coming up.” Okay, looking at his, what he told me about himself as far as certifications and stuff like that. Ya know, driver operator course, fire fighter instructor. Well would you like to help put this test on? Yeah yeah, look at what we got, I don’t even know what we have as far as this and I said, I have an idea of what I’d like to do. And be more of a scenario based thing where people get actual hands on practice before they take the test. So, then whatever happened, he got busy with stuff and whatever, with him and I, he was always doing stuff. I was approached by the, what’s the name of the buy taking the test, can’t think of his name, ya know, during that first training class I did with the airway, he came to me saying, “Ya know Chief, I’m coming up for a driver’s test and I’d like to get it done before such and such time.” I’m like, “Yeah, I’ve heard about, I’m trying to work with somebody on it, we are trying to get something out.” “Okay.” Didn’t hear anything else about. That week that I went away, to – VLS: To go to the schooling? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yeah the fire service instructor. I get a memo through the Battalion Chief from Lt. Nadelman that this is notice based on contract that you now have two weeks to do the driver’s test. VLS: That you have two weeks to do the driver’s test? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yeah, I have to put, the unit contract states that when a person puts in their notification that it has to be provided within two weeks. And just like the coincidence of people in my class, on the phone being disrespectful while I’m talking, I found it a little bit convenient that that occurred when they knew I would be out of town for a week. - 23 - VLS: Can you send me that e-mail as well? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I believe I still have it, I’ll look for it. VLS: Okay thank you. Other situations where felt that you have been undermined? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: No, I think that’s it. VLS: Okay. Alright. How does the, well let me ask you this, what do you feel… Let me start all over again. Has the Chief ever talked to you about why he selected you for the position of Training Chief? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yeah, he sat down and said based on what came back from PSSI study. That they put a big emphasis on EMS. He felt based on everybody who applied, inside and outside, that hands down I had more EMS experience than anybody there. I started my career in EMS, I was ENT instructor, I worked my way up from clinical instructor to ENT lead instructor to paramedic lead instructor. I was a proctor for National Registry Test. I was an ACLS instructor, I was an BCLS instructor, PALS instructor, advanced trauma life support. I mean, I’ve had a lot of EMS experience. I’ve worked on, when I first got promoted in ’99, I worked on a very busy engine company. That truck probably ran 5-6,000 calls a year so if you divide that into third, I worked every third shift. So for round numbers, let’s say we ran 6,000 calls. That means I was running somewhere to 2,000 calls a year. 80% of those are medical. VLS: And were they about 80%? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yeah, most departments usually that’s about what the average is. It is usually 80% medical and 20% fire. So I bring a lot of experience to the plate. I worked for Broward County EMS and I’ve always worked downtown areas so we, I was averaging 15-20 calls a shift. So, I have a lot of experience in that area. VLS: And instructing in that area. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: And instructing in that area as well. VLS: So the Chief indicated to you that one of the deciding factors to him in your selection was the emphasis on the EMS services which had been emphasized in the PSSI study? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Correct. VLS: Did he discuss with you anything else about your, about why he selected you for the position? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Okay at the fact that he said as well as it was hard to find somebody that had a good balance. A lot of times its either all fire or all - 24 - EMS. He felt that I had a good fire background as well. Because, again, in Fort Lauderdale what started off as, I started off as an EMS instructor. And then that eventually morphed into well now we’re just going to do field training officers that do both fire and EMS. So, ya know, I mean I did all kinds of different stuff. Sometimes inspect committees for trucks. I was on the education competition team. The striker arf truck that we have in Fort Lauderdale, I was the trainer for that. Which is basically the same truck we have here in our department. So, ya know. I’ve had a little bit of everything and ya know, not to toot my horn but I was a good fire officer as well. I had a lot of experience working in a down town station, running a lot of calls. Was in command of a lot of major incidences, so I really bring a good mix to the table. Basically that is what I got out of our conversation was that everybody across the board, I blew everyone out of the water with practical experience in EMS, and then I can also hold my own when it comes to fire operations as well. VLS: Have you had any discussions with the Chief about the situations where you felt that you were being undermined? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yeah, ya know we talk about it. And its, ya know I told him, I said, I’m going to let it ride for now. Because I don’t think coming in and trying to strong arm anybody is going to make the situation any better. To me, I think that either ride out the storm a little bit and let everybody in the department see who I am and what I’m trying to do, and then the support should sort of build itself up from there. I don’t feel that if I command this by trying to muscle my way through it that that’s going to garner what I’m trying accomplish. Like I said, I came with the intention of helping the department. And to some degree, I think, like the lower level, and I don’t want to read into things, but the guy that approached me about the driver’s test, ya know I went over to talk to him about, “Hey I’m putting something together. I just wanted to let you know I have this stuff to find out from the previous chief, but I have my own idea.” I said, “Ya know, I’m going to get it together and give you the opportunity.” And he was like, that’s good, but what I noticed was, and I don’t want to read into anything, but what I noticed from him was that around other people, especially the company officers that were there, which was again Lt. Adamski, he was very quiet. And then as soon as we were kind of alone, he made a point to tell me, “Hey Chief, I just want to let you know, I didn’t mean to cause you any problems by sending this up.” Almost to the point of saying, it wasn’t my idea. But again I don’t want to put words into anybody else’s mouth but it kind of came across to me that way, that he made a specific point to tell me, I didn’t mean to cause you any problems. So, I feel like there are people out there who understand what I’m trying to do, and are on board with the fact that I’m here to help. Almost like, maybe they are being intimidated by other people. VLS: You mentioned the PSSI report that the Chief had referenced. Have you ever seen that report? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Yeah I have a copy of it on my desk. VLS: Have you read it? - 25 - BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I’ve read through it, I haven’t read all of it. I’ve basically been focusing in on some of the EMS issues. VLS: The EMS issues that are discussed in the PSSI report? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Correct. VLS: Has the Chief given that to you as one of your priorities? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Well he gave that to me as a guideline to what’s going on. I spent yesterday talking with Collier County EMS, trying to, what I found was that some of the stuff that has been done hasn’t been done for a while. Trying to get it back together. Over there they had some people leaving as well. So its kinda like everything kinda fell apart for a little bit and now we are trying to get it back together. For me, its good because, well I won’t say good, but it would have been easier to come in and have everything already in place. Now I’m basically on ground floor of getting this stuff back together. So, I’m in the process of understanding this, it is very different here than what it was over there. Over in Fort Lauderdale, we provided it all. Everything was in house. We did EMS, we did fire, we did hazmat. All this stuff was in house. Whereas here, it’s a little bit fragmented. We are working under someone else for EMS. So there is a different component for that because we are not directly responsible for EMS. We have to go through someone else in order to do it. So I’m still figuring out, how do I get this accomplished. What are our resources for this? Who do I reach out to to get this done because it’s not directly my reasonability but indirectly it is. VLS: Understanding that my directive was to serve as an outside person to conduct an inquiry into this letter that the Union sent to the City Manager expressing a vote of no confidence in the Chief, is there anything else that you feel is important for me to know from your perspective as a relatively new comer to the City of Naples Fire and Rescue? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: Not that I can think of. VLS: Okay, I encourage you if there are events that occur between now and the time that this inquiry is concluded, and I don’t know what that date is, if you want to bring them to my attention. We mentioned a couple documents today, some e-mails. Feel free to contact me with the information and my e-mail is listed on the business card. Do you happen to have a business card? BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: You know I didn’t bring it. I’m sorry. VLS: No problem. I’ll find a way to get a hold of you if I need to. BATTALION CHIEF PENNINGTON: I didn’t bring my bookbag with me. VLS: And if there is nothing else, we will conclude the interview of Battalion Chief Pennington at about 2:30 p.m. on December 8, 2015. - 26 - RECORDED INTERVIEW OF LT. STEVEN KOFSKY ON 12/15/15 VLS: Testing 1, 2. I think we are ready to go now. LT. KOFSKY: Okay. VLS: I have introduced myself, my name is Vicki Sproat. I am an attorney with the Henderson, Franklin Law Firm which is a Fort Myers law firm. I have been retained by the City of Naples to conduct an inquiry or investigation into allegations of misconduct on the part of Chief McInerny that were raised in a letter sent by the Local 2174 to the City Manager on October 21, 2015. Today we are in a conference room in the Human Resource Department at City Hall, and I have asked Steve Kofsky to give an interview in connection with that inquiry. Mr. Kofsky do you understand that we are going to record this interview. LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And before getting started I just want to make a couple of statements which I have made in all of the interviews. The first being that City policy requires employees to be forthright, truthful and cooperative in providing information in connection with an inquiry or investigation. Do you understand that? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay, and do you also understand that it would be against City policy for there to be retaliation against an employee for in good faith participating in an interview in connection with an inquiry or investigation. LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And you also understand that if you feel that you have been subject of retaliation that should be promptly reported to Human Resources. LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: With that we will get started. Would you please state your full name? LT. KOFSKY: Steven Martin Kofsky. VLS: What is your current position with City of Naples Fire & Rescue? LT. KOFSKY: Driver/engineer Engine 2, B Battalion. VLS: Okay, so in B Battalion you report to Battalion Chief Nichols? LT. KOFSKY: Direct supervisor is Lieutenant Homan and then also above Lieutenant Homan is Battalion Chief Nichols. VLS: And how long have you been with the City of Naples? -1- LT. KOFSKY: It will be 16 years this month. VLS: What positions have you held? LT. KOFSKY: From probationary Firefighter, Firefighter, acting Driver, Hazardous Materials Team, Technical Rescue Team, the CAD management team, acting Lieutenant, (illegible), quite a few. VLS: Alright LT. KOFSKY: Intern training Chief. VLS: When did you become a Driver/Engineer? current technical position is. Which is what you said you are LT. KOFSKY: I want to say the permanent position was given to me about 3 years ago, but I have been an acting Driver since my 2nd year in the Department. VLS: And who gave you the promotion formally to Driver/Engineer? LT. KOFSKY: It wasn’t exactly, it’s, the promotional process is once you become an acting Driver, you are put on a list so if someone promotes or retires you just bump up. So, within the last, I want to say that I got the position within the last 5 years, 5, 3, so yeah it would have been the last 3 years. VLS: Have you been primarily assigned, what Fire Station did you say you were assigned? LT. KOFSKY: I have been at Fire Station 2 my whole career. Now, I have floated obviously to Stations 1 and 3, but my permanent assignment has always been Station 2. VLS: And where is Station 2 located? LT. KOFSKY: 977 26th Avenue North. VLS: You mentioned that you were a member of the CAD management team. What does CAD management team do? LT. KOFSKY: We’re in charge of checking all the monthly reports having to do with incidents. My assignment is every other month, I check every report having to do with the fire reports for that month and make sure that they are prepped and ready, everything is correct and then I send them to the State. And the State from there, they get sent to the national database. VLS: How long have you been a member of the CAD management team? LT. KOFSKY: 6 or 7 years, I believe, ‘cause I started when Chief McAvoy was still here. -2- VLS: Did you have any special training to become a member of the CAD management team? LT. KOFSKY: Yes. VLS: What training did you do? LT. KOFSKY: I went to numerous conferences in North Carolina, Wilmington, when we were still with the Vision part for CAD management. When we went to Image Trend, we took a 1 day brief class up in, I want to say, Winter Park, up near Orlando, but then other than that the only real specialized training is what we did on our own. There were conferences for Image Trend, but I never got to go to any of them. VLS: Have you had any training in coding under the NFIRS system? LT. KOFSKY: Only the trainings I have done on-line. The National Fire Academy and FEMA offer on-line courses, brief ones, to where you can get your certificates for it, so I have what they have had, and then a lot of it is just what I have done on my own. I have made, to use a term, we made, I have made cheat books that I put in every Station, and also the Battalion Chief’s office, but what it is a 3-ring binders explaining how exactly to do a report. It has all of the incident codes, action taken codes, and so forth in them so everyone that’s got’em, I made them for them. VLS: Are those books, are the materials within the books published by NFIRS? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, it is all the way that I did it, it was a lot of copy/paste so the code along with the definitions is straight out of NFIRS. Nothing was altered, but the way that I set up the one portion of it on how to do the report was a lot of copying and pasting off of Word with step-by-step procedures and so forth. VLS: When did you make those books that were delivered to the Stations? LT. KOFSKY: When we first got Image Trend, because there was such a, Image Trend is a lot different than Vision as far as our old reporting system so once I pretty much taught myself, got with a few other people, I made these and I issued them 2 books to every Station and then 1 book to the Battalion Chief’s office. VLS: And when did the Naples Fire & Rescue first get Image Trend? LT. KOFSKY: We went on-line officially with Image Trend in May of 2014, May 1, 2014. VLS: Who else is a member of the CAD management team? LT. KOFSKY: Lieutenant Dave Howard, B Shift Station 3; Firefighter Mike Murphy who is in charge of all the PCRs which are the Patient Care Reports, and the QAs on the medical aspect of it. He is Engine 2, B Shift with me; and then Chief Nichols oversees us. -3- VLS: So you would alternate monthly with Lieutenant Howard as far as checking the monthly reports? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. Now occasionally, I will have to skip a month because let’s say that I will be in a class or out of town, so Dave will wound up having to do three straight months, he will do his, he will do mine, and then he will do his again. And I am in the same boat, like last month, I have done. This month Dave has for December, but I did October, September, October and November. I am in the middle of doing November’s reports now. VLS: So what on-line courses would you have taken as it relates to the coding process under NFIRS? LT. KOFSKY: Give me one second and I will give you the exact one. It’s from the National Fire Academy. It’s Q-494 NFIRS 5.0 Self-Study Program. And I completed this back on September 26, 2009. VLS: To your knowledge has there been any substantial or significant changes in the NFIRS coding since September 2009? LT. KOFSKY: As far as the coding itself, not that I am aware of. I VLS: Any other courses, specific courses that you have taken that relates to coding under NFIRS? LT. KOFSKY: No. VLS: And you took that course on-line in September 2009? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And did you get some type of Certificate of Completion? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: That would have been issued by NFA? LT. KOFSKY: Yes. VLS: And I assume that would be probably somewhere in your personnel file? LT. KOFSKY: I’ve got it on-line and also in a personnel file. I can get it if you need it. VLS: Okay, thank you. Does Lieutenant Howard also have that same certificate or another one. LT. KOFSKY: I don’t know. -4- VLS: Alright. As I mentioned when we first started this interview, I have been retained by the City of Naples to conduct an inquiry into allegations contained in an October 21, 2015 letter. Have you seen the letter before? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Are you a member of the Local? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Are you an officer of the Local? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Does your name appear as a signatory on the letter? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. My signature is the last one above Treasurer. VLS: How long have you been Treasurer at the Local 2174? LT. KOFSKY: 2 months. VLS: And who was the Treasurer before? LT. KOFSKY: Jerry Pecar. VLS: When you signed the October 2015 letter were you signing it in your capacity as Treasurer of the Local? LT. KOFSKY: As an officer, yes. VLS: Does the letter also express your individual views and opinions in it as an employee of Naples Fire Department? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And I am not going to get into the Union meetings, I just want to get in to the substance of what is alleged in the October 21, 2015 letter and find out from you what information you have that is pertinent to those allegations? So feel free to look at the letter. The letter contains 4 enumerated points and I want to go through those and ask you specifically about each one. The first point in the October 21, 2015 letter states that the Chief has mislead the Community and City staff in particular he has created the misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities. Is that your opinion? LT. KOFSKY: Yes. VLS: And what do you base that opinion? -5- LT. KOFSKY: My 16 years with the Department, knowing what we need as far as, and I’ll just use the fire boat for example. The fire boat that was being looked at purchased the amount of money to be spent on it, we, in my opinion, we did not need a boat of that substance. We just needed something to get the job done. And, from what I saw a constant fighting and so forth on TV at the Union, at the Council meetings. It just kept putting us behind and behind. For a while we never had a fire boat to respond to calls and considering, you know, our waterways, and how much coastline we have, and the amount of money that we have to protect, we needed something. VLS: The, as I understand it, a new fire boat has recently been acquired by the Department? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And what type of boat is that? Can you describe it? LT. KOFSKY: I have yet to even be in on that. The boat is in Station 1 zone, and they are the ones 99.9% of the time who stop the boat, so my first time I will be on the boat I’ll be on it New Year’s Eve. I have seen it driving down the road. VLS: The previous boat that the Fire Department had, can you describe that? LT. KOFSKY: A piece of garbage. A hand-me-down. Um, very unsafe. Cracks in the hull. Cracks in the transom. The pilot house where I don’t any know the technical term for it, there were stress cracks in it. We have always had hand-me-downs from PD. So, we were in the need of a new fire boat. VLS: Was the former fire boat taken out of service at some point in time? LT. KOFSKY: Permanently, or just for repairs. VLS: Permanently. LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And when was that? LT. KOFSKY: I could not give you an accurate date. VLS: What about, what do you believe the Chief did to create misimpression of need with regard to the fire boat? Do you know what he represented to Council or to staff? LT. KOFSKY: A lot of it is hearsay VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: From me personally, I wasn’t an Union officer so I did not sit in on those meetings. I have no idea. -6- VLS: So, what you know about the fire boat is primarily what you have heard from other members of the Department? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Did you ever, you did not attend any, have you attended any Council meetings? LT. KOFSKY: Years and years ago. Nothing of substance for this. VLS: Do you happen to watch or follow the videos? LT. KOFSKY: I watch them when I can. I am not. I live out the County or out of the City. So, I don’t have access to that TV channel and I work so many jobs I don’t get online to keep up. VLS: Other than the fire boat in which you have heard talk about, are you aware of the Chief misleading the Community by creating the misimpression of need with regard to other apparatus? Or facilities? LT. KOFSKY: No, ma’am. VLS: The second enumerated point in the letter from the Union dated October 21, 2015 states that the Department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations or exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity. Is that your personal opinion? LT. KOFSKY: Yes. VLS: And tell me what your opinion is based on and if you want to break it down with respect to fire calls, damage and intensity, I guess there are 3 separate things. LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Let’s talk about what the basis is for your opinion that the Chief made misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls? LT. KOFSKY: On the way he has us code certain incidents with NFIRS and the NFA. There are certain codes for, let’s say an overheated motor? Alright, and he would want those coded as structure fires. The famous saying is where there is smoke there is fire. Well where there is smoke there is not always fire. That is why they have certain codes for certain types of incidents. I have had to go back and change some of my own reports that I have run myself, after Chief Nichols looks at them, he tells me that I need to change them because he has been told by Chief McInerny that this is what they needed. VLS: Have you ever been, specifically instructed directly by the Chief to change coding on a fire, on an incident report that you completed. -7- LT. KOFSKY: By Chief Nichols or Chief McInerny? VLS: Chief McInerny? LT. KOFSKY: No. VLS: Generally comes down through the chain of command? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And you believe that it originates with Chief LT. KOFSKY: From Chief Nichols’ mouth yes because I have had not heated conversations with Chief Nichols but basically saying I don’t feel comfortable with it and he is like listen I am telling you what to do because I have been told what to do. So I have put it on record with him, that it shouldn’t be done, but Chief wants it done. It gets done. VLS: When you say you put it on record, do you mean that you told him or you actually LT. KOFSKY: Verbally, yes, verbally told him VLS: You have not written anything? LT. KOFSKY: No. Lieutenant Homan has been in the room with me when I have spoke, but we have an NFPA code, it’s incident type 442 which is basically an overheated motor or wiring. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: That’s why NFPA has made that specific code. Just because it is an overheated motor and it is giving off smoke does not mean there is a fire. VLS: What is your understanding of what is necessary to constitute a fire under NFIRS? LT. KOFSKY: NFIRS you need four parts at a fire tetrahedron. Chemical reaction, the fuel, oxygen, and combustion. It’s just like it’s saying if you right know, if started smelling smoke in here from an A/C Unit, the belt might get too tight, and the belt might start wearing off. Just because we got smoke coming through the duct, does not mean there is a fire up there. Something is rubbing, friction, whatever. But that is why NFPA has some many different codes, and it basically tells you that you want to use the best code available to you. That is part of my job, as far as the reports go. So, I am not saying that I’m an expert, but I am very good at what I do. And I am very good at the codes. VLS: So you at times you are the officer, firefighter that actually prepares the initial Incident Report and assigns codes. -8- LT. KOFSKY: As, when on my shift for the engine, if any type of alarm, fire alarm, structure fire, anything that does not have to do with a patient care report, I am the one that does it. If it is an intense report where there is a lot to do, normally Lieutenant Homan will sit with me and we will do it together. But, as part of my job as the Driver of Engine 2, and also since I also do the monthly reports, I know how to do them well, I take care of the fires as long as I am the first engine there, that is my responsibility. VLS: I want to talk to you first about what you do as the one initially completing the coding as a result of responding to a fire or an incident on your shift. When is the initial coding done? LT. KOFSKY: Initial coding is done when we get back to the Station after the call has been complete. VLS: And the coding is done into a computer, into a computer system. LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And, are you saying that there have been times when you have been the one doing the initial coding and have been instructed to change the codes? LT. KOFSKY: After I have already completed, yes. VLS: And those times, can you give me any idea as to the number of times you have been told to change a code? LT. KOFSKY: I would say that it is probably a handful. It does not happen very often, but it is a handful. VLS: Have you, and when did it first occur that you were instructed to change coding that you had initially logged into the system? LT. KOFSKY: I can’t give you an accurate. I have no idea. VLS: Can you give me some examples of incidents were you have been the initial coder where you believe that the instructions to change the code were not appropriate? LT. KOFSKY: I can say an a/c unit. I am trying to think what the address is. It’s gotta be about 790, the 700 block of 9th Street North. This was a few months ago. It was an A/C Unit, up on the roof, it’s a strip mall, and instead of overheating a motor they had us use a structure fire code for it. VLS: So you don’t have the incident report in your mind but you know it was this year involving a strip mall somewhere in the 700 block of 9th Street North? LT. KOFSKY: Correct. -9- VLS: Does the narrative, do you also provide the narrative if you are the one responding? LT. KOFSKY: I do if it is my report, I do the main narrative on how the scene went, and if it is a substantial report, every unit that went does some narratives for their units and what they did. VLS: Did you prepare a narrative report on the 9th Street North incident? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Have you ever been asked to change the wording of the narrative portion? LT. KOFSKY: I don’t believe so, no. VLS: Okay, would it be apparent from the Incident Report of the 9th Street North incident that there was not a structure fire? LT. KOFSKY: Yes. VLS: Because of the way that you described what LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: What was observed at the scene? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And did you per instructions through the chain of command change the coding of an overheated motor to structure fire? LT. KOFSKY: Yes. VLS: And those instructions came to you through Battalion Chief Nichols. LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Now let’s talk about what you do in your capacity as a member of the CAD management team with respect to Incident Reports and the reporting that is required to the State. Can you describe that for me? LT. KOFSKY: Well in respect to what I do, is for the month that I am assigned, I go through every single report, make sure everything is filled out, make sure the times are correct, if it is a fire, make sure loss numbers for a property and contents are put in, go to the fire portion of it to make sure that is filled out, the apparatus portion. If it is arson have to make sure the arson section is filled out, and then especially if it is a fire, I have to wait for a Fire Marshal to give his final number for contents, for dollar loss, and then once that is all said and done, once the month is complete I run the numbers and I send - 10 - an e-mail to the State and within a day or two they normally send something back saying it has been accepted and then that’s it. VLS: To whom do you report, send the e-mail to the State? Who is that? Do you know the name of the individual? LT. KOFSKY: I believe her first name is Ann, A-N-N. No, Delphine. Ann is for another one. D-A-L-D-L-F-N-I-E. Daldlfnie Burke, I believe her last name is. She is the one that handles NFIRS reports. VLS: Burt LT. KOFSKY: Burt VLS: And does she in Southwest Florida? LT. KOFSKY: Tallahassee. VLS: And what specifically do you send to Daldlfnie. LT. KOFSKY: What it is, if you looked at it, it will look like gibberish. It’s just a bunch of letters and numbers. But, what it is, is they have a system up there that once I send it from down here, it gets inputted and makes sense of all the numbers and then they forwarded it, national level, so there is a process for Image Trend to where when you run a monthly reports to make sure that the number of reports match and so forth, and if you have any errors it will kick it back to you saying fix it. So it is a process, about a 2 page process that I also have, I made a cheat sheet for anyone who would need to do a case when I am not around or Dave’s not around. So. VLS: Daldlfnie is with the State Fire Marshal office. Do you know what agency she is with? LT. KOFSKY: Probably the State Fire Marshal office, or a sub of that. VLS: And you have been preparing these e-mails for a number of years. LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Then you said you run the numbers that are sent in the e-mail is that a matter of simply, I am not saying simple, but compiling the coding, reporting a summary of the coding on all the incidents? LT. KOFSKY: The program does it itself. When I say that I run numbers, I run the Incident numbers, I don’t, I don’t run structure fire numbers, I don’t run the loss numbers. It is all done by the system, so it just gets kicked to her and she downloads to her system and then it gets sent on from there. - 11 - VLS: So you are not doing any, when you run the numbers, it is not a discretionary function, you are pulling in, whatever data is in the Incident Reports? LT. KOFSKY: From October 1, October 31, whatever data is in those reports for that month, the way the system is everything gets put together and then gets forwarded on to them. VLS: Alright. Has there been any change in how you have done that job over the years? LT. KOFSKY: Yes. VLS: In what way has it changed? LT. KOFSKY: Within the last two months, Chief DiMaria had to go in and change a bunch of fire numbers, dollar loss amounts, so I had to go through and look at, and look at all the ones he changed. I wound up having, I personally called Daldlfinie and I said okay, listen do I need to run the whole year’s reports again, or do I just need to send you what was changed, the reports that were changed. And she informed me that all I needed to do was send the reports that were changed. Because I had said before, when the dollar loss, content loss and so forth, those are very big on the national level, when the National Fire Academy sends out the loss report for the whole country for let’s say fiscal 2015, those numbers are part of it. So, I made sure that I called her and told me that I only needed to send the fire reports that were changed. So I had to go back through January up until I believe September, get all of them together, I believe it was September, get all of them together and see what was actually changed, re-run a report and I sent it to her. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: And then this is what was given to me. VLS: Okay, you have brought a document with you that for purposes of this interview, I am going to mark as Number 1 and it is a LT. KOFSKY: Image Trend report having to do with structure fire calls and also what dollar amounts in reference to content and structure. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: And this was starting from report number 46 which was January 4 VLS: Of 2015 LT. KOFSKY: Of 2015, and page 3 shows the last one was September 6, I am sorry, September 7 and it was 4245 9th Street. VLS: Okay. - 12 - LT. KOFSKY: Now, what this is, is basically you will see numbers in hand off to the side. These were numbers that were told to be changed. On the left hand side, you will see check marks. Those are the ones that I have to double-check to see if they were changed from the initial reports that were sent in by either myself or Dave Howard. If I wrote next to either no or yes, which means it was either changed or wasn’t changed and a way I can also tell is the initial number in what was put, but on our reports every time someone accesses a report to do something, I can pull it up to see when it was done, what time, and who did it. VLS: And that is known as an audit trail? LT. KOFSKY: Yes. It’s an audit trail. VLS: So, it is your handwriting, yes or no, next to the checks in the left hand margin of Exhibit 1. LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And yes, means what again? LT. KOFSKY: Yes means that something has been changed due to the numbers and that was one of the reports that I re-sent to Daldlfnie as part of what was changed over the year so far. VLS: And for each Incident Report, where you have a yes marked, did you determine who and when the request for the change was made? LT. KOFSKY: Um VLS: Do you want me to start that again? LT. KOFSKY: It shows that Chief DiMaria was the one who did the change because he was directed to. That’s what I was told. So, what I had to do was once I saw Chief DiMaria do the change, I went in and looked at the numbers, and that is when I would mark a yes, because at the end when I was done with that report, I had to pull it up by those numbers right there. And re-submit it to the State. Because when I am talking about the incident number, as you can see up here in upper left corner, that is how I pull the numbers so I will know what to send Daldlfnie and the State. VLS: There are on this particular, report shows that it was printed on September 6th, 2015. LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And when was this presented to you? Exhibit Number 1? - 13 - LT. KOFSKY: I could not give you an accurate date. It was obviously either that date or after. What I can look up, and I can get it for you in the next day or two, I can look up and see when I sent the e-mail out to Daldlfnie to change everything. VLS: I would like the e-mail to Daldlfnie that was sent. Did you have an e-mail exchange with her where, or was it just a phone conversation where she told you just change the reports. LT. KOFSKY: She did not tell me to change anything. I told her that I had to change things, and what she told me was just send me the reports that were changed so I can update the file. So, I just sent those. That was on the phone, but in order to send her the reports, there is an e-mail trail on that obviously. VLS: So what you are going to provide is the e-mail to Daldfnie where you sent those reports that she indicated you should send. LT. KOFSKY: Yes. I’ll send you. I can forward you that e-mail. VLS: That will be fine. LT. KOFSKY: But understand that if you open up the attachment you will not understand anything. I don’t even understand. VLS: I will not understand anything. Okay. Gotcha. I would nevertheless like the email and the report. And if you will see there is an e-mail, it is a very, very busy business card. LT. KOFSKY: This is it, Vicki Sproat. VLS: I am just going to kinda underline that cause there is a lot on there. LT. KOFSKY: I’ll send it to you. No problem. VLS: What were the circumstances under which you were presented with Exhibit 1? LT. KOFSKY: I was just told that these were the numbers that had changed, and I needed to contact the State and see what we have to do from there. VLS: But, that was in a face-to-face LT. KOFSKY: I was on the phone. VLS: With a, in a conversation with Chief LT. KOFSKY: Chief DiMaria and Lieutenant Nadelman was in the office because I believe that I was working a trade at the time. VLS: And you do not recall exactly when that was? - 14 - LT. KOFSKY: No, ma’am. VLS: Did they give you any explanation of why they were sending you this document? LT. KOFSKY: No. I was just told that things had changed. I needed to find out what we needed to do on our level. And that is yours if you want. VLS: Yes, I will take it. Does this report contain the incident numbers for all actual fires with losses from the time period that you indicated January 4, 2015 through September 7, 2014. LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. This will give you the Incident number which is assigned to us. The date of the incident. The incident type like I explained before, structure fire, overheated motor or so forth, that is the incident type code, where the address was and what zone it was in, meaning Zone 1, 2, 3 or out of jurisdiction. VLS: Thank you. That is helpful. So, of all of the 3 pages of the incident reports which I guess are in chronological order LT. KOFSKY: Yes. VLS: There were requests for changes to how many? LT. KOFSKY: 12. VLS: And what were the nature of the changes that were made on the reports? LT. KOFSKY: It was either having to do with the content or the property values. The loss. That was the monetary. VLS: There was no on this, as it relates to Exhibit 1, there was no changes in the NFIRS coding assigned. LT. KOFSKY: No, no. That stayed the same. VLS: And does Exhibit Number 1 indicate how much the value was being increased or decreased on those 12 changes? LT. KOFSKY: You can almost make it out. It looks like some of it has been cut off due to the printing portion, because you can tell on the left the yes was cut off. And that looks like it was cut off over there. Some of them you can tell, and then that may have gone down or up. I am not sure. But, something, something has been changed out of the dozen of them. VLS: Now, with some of the check marks, do not list content loss, but there is a handwritten number. Does that mean that the initial report did not show any content loss? - 15 - LT. KOFSKY: Could have been. I don’t know for sure. It could have been. So, because let’s say the check mark was put here, now the check marks are mine, all of that is mine written on here was the no and yeses, and then this was handwritten. That is either Chief Nichols or Chief DiMaria for this Incident number. It was Chief Nichols and then I put yes that means something was changed on that one. So, as far as a monetary numbers go, that’s got nothing to do, that’s above my program. I don’t know. VLS: So you have no idea of for instance you have not attempted to quantify the changes? LT. KOFSKY: No. VLS: Have you ever been asked to make changes after reports had already been submitted to the State before? LT. KOFSKY: No, this was the first time. VLS: Did you get any feedback from the State? LT. KOFSKY: Daldlfnie, yeah, she and happens is once I submit a report, monthly or this, I will get an e-mail back from her within the next few days saying thank you, it’s been submitted. She confirms that she has it and that everything is okay. VLS: Did you get any confirmation from her after receipt of the Incident Reports, can you provide that to me as well. LT. KOFSKY: Yes. VLS: Do you have any idea from looking at the Incident Report, any audit trail, when the changes were made towards LT. KOFSKY: I cannot tell from the physical paper before me, but I can go to any single one of these and I can pull up the audit trail. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: Depending on what the WIFI is in here, my laptop is in my truck, I have access to everything from my laptop. VLS: Okay. We may take a break. But, let me understand what significance that would have? You would be able to go, if you can pull it up, if the WIFI is available, you would be able to tell me when the change was made. LT. KOFSKY: I can tell you when the changes were made, but I cannot tell you exactly what was done. I can give you the time stamp, and the date and who did it. VLS: And was it your understanding that all of the changes had been made by Battalion Chief DiMaria. - 16 - LT. KOFSKY: Yes VLS: And do you know whether all of the changes were made by, according to this system, to DiMaria on the same, around the same date and time? LT. KOFSKY: Don’t know. Don’t know. I could tell you. I could tell you by looking at it when I bring my laptop in. But the only ones I went to were the ones that had physically something written near them. Those are the ones. I can tell. Who went into them and a date. Because you will see like this one, this report, report number 1 with the first check on it, Report IR170, this was back from January 12, but I can see that it was accessed, in let’s say in September. So, you know. VLS: There ever a times that you are aware of through your career with the Fire Department. Where the Department gets updated information on property loss. For instance though the Fire Marshal’s office, or through additional insurance companies has it comes in. LT. KOFSKY: I, I’ve never had to deal with having to go back and rechange anything. What I do is, I don’t submit anything to the State until the Fire Marshal looks at it first and puts his numbers in. I was holding on, I’ll use, um, we had an arson fire at a gas station, I want to say it was back in October, September, and I was waiting, it had been, normally to Daldlfnie. I’ll send the end of the month report, I’ll send it within the next week of the next month, so she’s got it right away. I had to wait several weeks because there was an arson. The State Fire Marshal had to come down and look at it, and so forth. So, when it is my month then I can speak for myself, I can’t speak for Dave. I don’t submit anything to the State until every report is done and locked by myself. And that includes going through the Chief’s office or the Battalion Chief’s office and the Fire Marshal making sure that these fire reports are done. VLS: Okay, let me see if I understand this. If then for instance there is an incident, a fire incident, where it is going through the Fire Marshal’s office, you do, let me start again. The officer who initially codes the report, they do have to put in a field that where they estimate property loss, property amounts. LT. KOFSKY: You can put it in, or you can leave it blank. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: Now if you leave it blank, you might get an error message at the top, which is not a problems because the report is not done yet, and everyone knows. And I will use the arson one as an example because I am the one that did the report. I was the driver of the engine. So I knew coming in, it was going to be arson. So I filled out everything except the monetary values. I had to wait for the Fire Marshal because he in turn was waiting on the State Fire Marshal to bring back the numbers. So, Daldfnie did not get a report until I think to maybe the 2nd or 3rd week of the next month because our report was not done yet. I don’t, especially if it is a fire. Cause I can pull up the way I do my audits for my reports. I’ll pull up all the structure fires, and I will look at the dollar contents, and if nothing is filled out, or if they have a check next to it that says no dollar - 17 - value needed or so forth, I know that is good. I don’t submit anything unless the reports are done to the State. VLS: But, you don’t know how other officers, what the standard operating procedure is. LT. KOFSKY: I would think Dave is the same way. I would think Dave’s the same way. We both are pretty much on the same page, but I don’t want to speak for him. VLS: But, I mean as far as when somebody else besides you or Dave is the one that initially inputs the information, does the initial reporter sometimes put down a property value that it is later changed because the Fire Marshal has a different figure? LT. KOFSKY: Maybe, maybe. Normally, what we try to do is after the fire is done I receive the Fire Marshal has the short to do his investigation. We might get a number from him right away. Let’s say it was just a small kitchen fire, where you lost a pot, a pan, and you have some smoke damage. We might get a number from him right away or we could get a number from the Battalion Chief. And that gets inputted in. What I then look at is, if I know there is a fire, I’ll call the officer, I’ll call the driver, I’ll call the Battalion Chief, and I am like is this report done, is everything good to go, especially if I see everything is already filled in. I double-check. If I see nothing filled in for the money, then I will send an e-mail and like this is not done let me know because I can’t send my report until it is done. VLS: So, you are saying when you are the person who is assigned that month from the team, you would always confirm with the reporter if it is a fire you would confirm with the reporter that the report is in fact done. LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay, then you would do that prior to LT. KOFSKY: Submitting that VLS: Submitting that to the State LT. KOFSKY: Correct. VLS: Are you involved in preparing or inputting any information that is used for internal reporting purposes? LT. KOFSKY: Occasionally, I’ll help Chief Nichols if he needs something. VLS: Do you know what is reported internally? For instance, to the City manager’s office, or to City council. LT. KOFSKY: I see some of the things that get sent out in the annual report and so forth, like that. I don’t have much to do with that at all. That’s pretty much all Chief Nichols. And then, I don’t - 18 - VLS: Do you know how he runs that data? LT. KOFSKY: No, ma’am. VLS: So going back to the question, the bullet point we were talking about in the Union’s letter relating to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls. Is, it is your belief that the Fire Chief through the chain of command has changed or requested changes in the way that incidents are reported? LT. KOFSKY: Yes. VLS: And those changes are generally, do they generally result in something being coded as a fire where it would have been coded as something less than that? LT. KOFSKY: Yeah. Instead of a 100 series is considered a fire with the NFPA or the coding. A code 442, which is an overheated motor. We have been, I have personally had to put stuff as a structure fire when it should have been a 442. I’ve personally had to do that. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: In reference to the sheet I gave you Exhibit 1, the fire calls, damage and intensity. The fire calls and damage is pretty much this paper could handle that. The misinterpretation of the intensity, I’ll give you one example is we had a structure fire call, I believe it was the beginning of this year, on 5th Avenue North. The way he wrote it up to City council it sounded like it coulda have been the worst structure fire that the City had ever seen, but meanwhile, we barely put any water on it to put it out. It’s just the way VLS: You were on that call. LT. KOFSKY: Yeah. I, I was the one pumping that call. I was the one who was supplying the water. It was my truck. VLS: Do you, can you, I don’t know if this helps you. Can you tell me what Incident Report relates to the 5th Avenue North fire that you are citing? LT. KOFSKY: I want to say that it is report 2394, and I can confirm that if I pull up, if I get my laptop. VLS: You know this might be a good time for us to take a break. So, it is now 1:33, about, and I am going to turn off the tape and we are going to take a brief break. LT. KOFSKY: Let’s continue. VLS: Okay, we are now back on the record it is about 1:22, and this is with the interview of Steve Kofsky. You mentioned a call, a structure fire call to 5th Avenue North. Did the Chief come to that scene? - 19 - LT. KOFSKY: I don’t believe so. VLS: Do you know whether that scene was photographed? LT. KOFSKY: Yes. VLS: Do you know who did the photography? LT. KOFSKY: I want to say Chief Nichols might have taken a few. I think I took a few. I want to say that it might be on the P drive under Fire Pictures. VLS: Was that a scene where the Fire Marshal also came. The Naples Fire Marshal. LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: That is the one where you are saying that you viewed something that was reported to City council and it misinterpreted the intensity? LT. KOFSKY: Yes. VLS: What was it that you saw? Was it a document that was sent to City council or to City Manager’s office? LT. KOFSKY: E-mail. It was an e-mail. VLS: Do you know if you still have a copy of that e-mail. LT. KOFSKY: I have no idea or not. VLS: And could you, is it apparent from the face of the incident report itself as you interpreted knowing that about first of all I guess you prepared it. Do you think it is apparent from the Incident Report itself and the photographs that it is different than the way it was documented and then e-mailed to City council. LT. KOFSKY: Yes. There was actually entries done on this by the City council due to the fact that a water that was used to put the fire out, it was a very low amount of water that was used. I remember I had to get an e-mail about it, I think Lieutenant Homan got an e-mail about it due to the fact that the intensity of the fire that was reported to Council they looked at the numbers and like well if it was that intense, and I am using a roundabout figure, I can’t remember the exact, was like well why did you use 40 gallons of water to put it out. VLS: So there are statistics that are reported that LT. KOFSKY: I found this fire VLS: Show this amount of water. How, where does the water, is that on the Incident Report, itself, the amount of water that was used? - 20 - LT. KOFSKY: I believe on this one, because I can tell on my truck how much water I have used. And, for some reason, on this Report, I looked at our flow meter and I put it on there, god I wish I could pull this up. There was, there was numbers presented. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: I can’t give you the specifics on how and why VLS: But it was in the Incident Report? LT. KOFSKY: Yes. Yes. VLS: Was that the fire that, the structure fire that we are talking about, was that on 5th Avenue North, was that the subject of a public records request? LT. KOFSKY: I have no idea. VLS: You just know that there were questions raised. LT. KOFSKY: Yeah, because after a fact, I had to produce some numbers, I had to do calculations, because we could calculate how much water we used, gallons per minute. We can do all of that. VLS: And you brought with you your computer and you are having some difficulties gaining access to Reports, but I am going to ask you a few questions while you continue to try to access. If it becomes difficult for you to multi-task we will just stop and take another break. LT. KOFSKY: No problem. VLS: How frequently do you run the monthly reports for the State? LT. KOFSKY: Every month. VLS: I mean is there, do you submit them at the same time every month? LT. KOFSKY: No. No, it’s, I try to submit them, I’ll use the example of November. I will try to submit those reports within the first week of December. Right now, I am running behind due to the overtime issue, and not being approved to check the reports. So, I’m, on my behalf, I am far behind where I am normally at. VLS: And you say overtime issue. Do you run the reports during your regular Shift hours or is that something that you do at another time? LT. KOFSKY: Checking, checking the monthly reports so that they are prepared for the State is done on an overtime basis. VLS: And do you need advanced approval for the overtime? - 21 - LT. KOFSKY: Starting 2 months ago, we did. I used to have myself and Lieutenant Howard. We had carte blanche to get the reports done and we just submit our hours in an e-mail to the on duty Battalion Chief so that it can get logged into TeleStaff so that we can get paid. But, now we need prior approval, and it’s taking for the month of November, it took over 2 weeks. Well let me put it this way, I just submitted October’s, I submitted October’s final reports to the State last week. And now it is December, because I did not have approval on the overtime to put the report together so when I finally got the approval from Chief Nichols on an e- mail, I was still in New Mexico on vacation, I submitted it to Daldlfnie, while I was on vacation, on overtime. VLS: How did you get the directive that overtime needed to be approved, preapproved? LT. KOFSKY: Chief McInerny sent out a memorandum that all overtime except for our daily staffing requirements and specialized team training I believe it was. Those two were not involved in, but any other overtime for the Department needs to go through him for prior approval. Madam I do not know what is going on with this thing. VLS: Okay, thank you. It’s best if we take a break and see if we can figure out what is going on and it we can’t, I’ll just have to get that information from you later. So it is 10 of 2 and I am going to stop the recorder. VLS: Alright, we took a very brief break. We are back on the record with the interview of Steve Kofsky. We are still, we have indicated that we are still having problems accessing the computer that you brought up. So, we are going to continue with this interview and at the conclusion go over to the Fire Station where if you a few answers, you may be able to access data better in response to more specific questions. LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. We will go next door the Station 1. VLS: Okay very good. There is a location over there we can close the door. LT. KOFSKY: Yup. We’ll do it in a Lieutenant’s office. There are two computers. VLS: Okay, thank you. So, we were reviewing the letter the enumerated points on the October 21, 2015 letter and we will discussing the 2nd point which in the letter states Department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations, and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity. Is there any further information that you have relative to that point? LT. KOFSKY: No, ma’am. VLS: The 3rd point in the Union’s letter is that the Chief’s misrepresentations, exaggerations, and outright mendacity have created a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire, rescue personnel, as a result the Chief has lost the ability to effectively lead the City firefighters. Is that our opinion? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. - 22 - VLS: And what do you base that opinion. LT. KOFSKY: Some of his hiring practices. I will use it as an example. Hiring people that are not qualified for positions, and due to and not being Union positions, we have no say. He is allowed to put anybody in a position that he wants that is not a bargaining position. So, that is understandable, but to hire people that have no certifications to be in a position, no. It just shows. In the Fire Department, you work, you go to school, you get certificates, you train, because you want to improve yourself. You want to be a better firefighter for the City and for the residents. You want to know that there is a stepping stone to where you can make yourself better, and when you constantly go outside your own Department when you have the qualified people to do it, you are showing that you have no faith in your own personnel. So it’s. VLS: What positions are you referring to when you talk about hiring individuals that are not qualified? LT. KOFSKY: I’ll use the new Training Chief that was just hired as an example. VLS: That’s Chief LT. KOFSKY: Pennington. VLS: Pennington? And why do you believe that he is not qualified for the position? LT. KOFSKY: He doesn’t hold an Instructor Certificate, he does not hold a Live Fire Instructor Certificate. I, doesn’t hold a Fire Officer 1 Certificate. You know these are all things that a Shift officer should have. VLS: Do you know what there certificates that are listed as minimum qualifications for the position? LT. KOFSKY: When we apply for the position, we were told to give all of our Certificates, what we had, and so forth and our Résumé, and so forth in Interest letter to the Chief. To show, to show that we were qualified with the position, our degrees and so forth. Now, when Chief Moyer left, I was appointed, I was in charge of the training office for the few months before Pennington got here. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: Alright. VLS: So were you called like the acting LT. KOFSKY: Yeah, yes, yeah. I’ve e-mails and everything the County, I was the liaison basically. I was in that position even though I had not officially been labeled the interim, no official e-mail, no raise, nothing like that, but every time I would work off duty which was quite a bit, I was getting paid overtime for it. But I was the one that was attending the meetings, I was the one issuing out training every month. I was the one - 23 - handling you know doing pre-plans, going and doing site surveys, so forth. I even had to make reservations for people to go to the Conferences. I was basically in the Training Chief’s role. VLS: Did you apply for the position? Or did you responded to the Letter Of Interest? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And how did the Chief or the Department inform you that they were accepting Letters of Interest? LT. KOFSKY: The Chief put out a, um, he put out an e-mail that anyone that was interested in the Training Chief position needed to submit a Résumé, and an Interest Letter, and it needed to be him, it needed to be, it needed to be sent to him within a certain timeframe. VLS: Let me see if I got it. Did you happen to bring with you that particular document? LT. KOFSKY: That e-mail from him, no, but I brought with me the Résumé and my Interest Letter. This still isn’t pulling up program, I’ll have to go next door. VLS: Okay. I am going to hand you what for purposes of your interview remark as Exhibit Number 2. Is this the e-mail you received concerning the position of the open position of Battalion Chief Training? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And you brought with you what you submitted in response to that? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: Here is the letter and then here that is the Interest Letter, and then here is the list of classes and qualifications that I have taken. That I have submitted to him also. VLS: So we are going to mark, I am going to mark as Number 3 the Letter you sent in response to the Chief’s e-mail that was submitted on what date? LT. KOFSKY: I submitted it August 1st, 2015. VLS: And Exhibit Number 4 is your education and Certificates. Was that submitted at the same time? LT. KOFSKY: Same exact time. VLS: Okay. - 24 - LT. KOFSKY: Same e-mail. VLS: Alright, did you ever have any communications directly with the Chief about your interest in the position or your qualifications for the position? LT. KOFSKY: When I submitted this, I got an e-mail back saying received and I believe he said thank you. And then after that hadn’t heard anything back from him until an email chain when we, when we had found out that he went outside the Department to hire someone and had never bothered telling any of us. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: I was up in, to use an example, I was up in Ocala taking a class, and he had texted me that he had forgotten about an e-mail about Fort Lauderdale coming over here and doing a refresher for Lee County Task Force for USAR. So I needed to get with the guy from Fort Lauderdale to set up for them to use our training site. VLS: What is the acronym, USAR? LT. KOFSKY: Urban Structure and Rescue. They were coming over to do a refresher class for the Lee County Task Force to use our team. I believe Chief McInerny was out injured at the time and it had basically got by him so while up in Ocala, I took care of emailing Lauderdale, I set everything up. I set the dates up, and so forth. The next week I was back, the week after, I was over in Miami-Dade teaching the State 160 hour hazardous material course. I teach that on the side for another company. And while teaching this class is when we found out that he had gone outside the Department and hired somebody else. VLS: How did you learn that while teaching the class in Miami-Dade? LT. KOFSKY: Got a text from someone and then I actually spoke to either, I spoke to Chris Clissold who is our Vice President, and they found out the date through a chart that he had actually sent a conditional offer of employment weeks before that. So, while I am busy trying to do everything to prove that I’ve got the position and so forth, he has already hired someone, sent the conditional offer of employment, never informed any of us that we didn’t even have a chance. Once I submitted all of this, I never even got the consideration to come in for an interview to talk to him, nothing. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: So I find out that they went outside the Department and hired. And within an hour I get an e-mail from Lieutenant Mike Moore that they had just finished running a fire alarm or rescue call over at Naples Bay Resort. The gentleman who runs that, who runs the area there is an ex-Firefighter, and he said that he wanted the Department to come in and do some training so that they can see all the access points and so forth. So there was an e-mail chain between him and Mike Moore on that day. So Mike forwards it to me since everyone knows that I am the acting Training Chief, it’s like we need to set this up, you know, he wants us to come over and so forth. So, I took - 25 - some time and I replied to Mike and I cc’d all the Battalion Chiefs, and I cc’d Chief McInerny. I can’t exactly remember what I said, I could pull it up for you. Well, you know basically I am not doing the training position anymore, you know, this needs to be handled by the Battalion Chiefs, and so forth. Well needless to say, within the next half hour, numerous e-mails went back and forth between me and Chief McInerny, and everyone was included in it. That was in the cc’d e-mail chain. So, basically at one point, he told me to just calm down, that I needed to come in and have a meeting with him to explain what was going on. VLS: And you have that e-mail chain? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Can you date that? I mean as you, I know that you are going to look for it for me, but… LT. KOFSKY: I can actually give you, I’ll give you the e-mail chain when we go next door. VLS: Alright, so you have this e-mail exchange with the Chief where others are copied, and do you eventually have a meeting with him? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, I eventually got a meeting with him when I got back from teaching over in Miami-Dade. VLS: And when did that meeting take place? If you can’t give me the date, how long after the e-mail exchange? LT. KOFSKY: Within the week. Within the week. The date might actually be on that email. VLS: And where did you meet? LT. KOFSKY: Chief’s office. VLS: Was anyone else with you? LT. KOFSKY: No. VLS: And what happened in that meeting? LT. KOFSKY: He explained of his reasoning behind hiring Chief Pennington and it was due to his medical background because of us wanting to push for ACLS, or I’m sorry, ALS transport that he wanted him to be in the Training Division and so forth. And, basically didn’t say anything about his fire qualifications or so forth, but he just, and then he asked me to help, he asked for me to help train him. VLS: Okay. - 26 - LT. KOFSKY: So, VLS: Did you have any discussions with the Chief, ask any questions, or did he provide any information as to when Pennington had been hired? LT. KOFSKY: No. No, he didn’t release that information, but we had gotten that information prior due to Human Resources. It’s a conditional offer of employment, she looked it up, and I want to say it might have been October 1st, or something like that. Is when the offer of employment went out. And that’s roundabout. VLS: And do you know whether the Chief at the time that the conditional offer went out and was accepted, was the Chief communicating with the Union about the position? LT. KOFSKY: He, yes. The guys went in, the Union officers went in and had a meeting with him, asking when this position was finally going to be filled. And VLS: Were you in on that meeting? LT. KOFSKY: No, ma’am. I wasn’t an officer at the time. VLS: Do you know when it took place? LT. KOFSKY: No. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: No. VLS: I interrupted you, continue. LT. KOFSKY: And basically, and this is what I was told that was said in a meeting that I had every qualification, but I wasn’t an Officer yet. Corey had all the qualifications, but he had not been an Officer long enough. Gerry had the qualifications and time, no, I’m sorry, Gerry had the time, and was an Officer, but he did not even have his own Associates degree. Dan had everything but he did not have enough time as an Officer. And then basically Nadelman said well I got everything, I got the time in as an Officer I’ll take the position, and that’s when she said well, you did not put in for it. So, I can’t give it to you. So, that’s all. VLS: Okay, you have no direct knowledge of that, that’s what you have been told by those that were present? LT. KOFSKY: Exactly. Second hand knowledge. VLS: Alright. LT. KOFSKY: But, and then you know when Pennington started, you I sat down with him. I helped train him. I was with him for a few days on overtime driving him all over the County, introducing him to people. We went to lunch a few times, you know. He - 27 - had said that, you know because I had asked him straight out I was like do you have your Live Fire Instructor? He said no. Said he didn’t even have his Fire Instructor Certificate, I don’t know if he has ever had it. He used to have a ACLS Instructor, and PALS, but he let that go. You know, he also informed me he was, he was in a drop plan over there. Alright, he didn’t even know about this job. McInerny he said McInerny called him and say hey do you want to be a Training Chief? So, basically he quit over there to come over here. And then when I am finding out too is he didn’t even have his F41 Certificate, so I don’t, it just shows the lack of, I don’t know the lack of trust, or I don’t know what goes through our Chief’s mind. I really don’t. But when you got people here that are qualified and you don’t even give them an opportunity and then when you do put out an e-mail saying you want all of this information and then you don’t even give anyone their respect to come in and at least talk to him about it. Especially how much, you know, how much I busted it trying to do this. This is where I wanted to be. I don’t want to be a Chief, I wanted to be a Training Chief. This is what I have always wanted to do. And that is why I work so close with Chief Moyer before he left. I was basically his go-to guy, I teach at the Academy. I teach all over the place. I teach State certified classes. I mean, this is just an idea. I mean since 2014, 2013 these are just State certified classes where people get certificates from the State. These are just some of the classes that I have taught in this County, as well as all over the State. Let alone taking VLS: We will mark that document you just handed me as Exhibit Number 5 to your witness statement. LT. KOFSKY: And this is an Excel spreadsheet that I have kept up ever since I was with the Department. This is every class that I have ever taken as far as fire goes. This has nothing to do with my Associates for the career that I am working on my Bachelor’s, but I, Florida State Certifications. My Officer, my Inspector, my Instructor, my Live Fire Instructor, HAZMAT, St. Pete College for Fire classes. Going out of State. National Fire Academy. Dates completed. VLS: Thank you. We will mark that document as Number 6. Is this information that is in Exhibit Number 6, summarized in part in Exhibit Number 4? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Did you have any further communications at any time with the chief about the selection of Chief Pennington? LT. KOFSKY: No. That was meeting him in his office was the last time we spoke about it. VLS: And how would you describe you interaction with Pennington since he has arrival? LT. KOFSKY: No issues at all. He seems like a very nice gentleman. - 28 - VLS: Did Pennington tell you when it was that McInerny called him and asked him if he wanted to be the Training Chief? LT. KOFSKY: He did not give me specific dates. And like I said we know the dates because HR. (illegible) public records, whatever. So we knew the dates. But it was, yeah. VLS: Going back to the October letter, and we’re discussing the 3rd bullet point LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am VLS: That states that the Chief’s misrepresentations, exaggerations and outright mendacity have created the lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire and rescue personnel as a result the Chief has lost the ability to effectively lead the City’s Firefighters. And you said that your opinion and have discussed the hire of Chief Pennington as an example. Is that correct? LT. KOFSKY: Yes. VLS: As it relates to Pennington hire, do you believe that the Chief made misrepresentations, exaggerations, or outright lied? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, to me he did. Yes. VLS: And what, how did he lie to you? LT. KOFSKY: Saying that this was the most qualified person for the job, and then you look at he has no Certificates. He’s got none of the training. To be a Training Officer, you should be a State certified Training and an Instructor, so forth. VLS: Any other examples or information that you have that relates to the 3rd bullet point? LT. KOFSKY: The hiring of a Fire Marshal. VLS: Okay, then let’s talk about that. LT. KOFSKY: It was never posted. So nobody internally even had a chance to apply for it, and I know one person in the Department that would have fit the role and had all the qualifications for it. And that was Lieutenant Zunzunegui. He started in the Fire Marshal’s, he started in the Prevention Office, got his Master’s degree, he’s been an officer, and you know, he would have fit that position, and he didn’t even have a chance. VLS: Okay. Was there in connection with the Fire Marshal’s office, position, open position was there an e-mail similar to what you received in connection with the vacancy of the Training Officer? LT. KOFSKY: No, no. It was never posted for anyone to even apply. - 29 - VLS: I see. LT. KOFSKY: The only e-mail we ever got was this person is now the new Fire Marshal, all correspondence and so forth will be going through him. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: No one ever had an opportunity. VLS: In your opinion, if you know, in your opinion, does the Fire Marshal Rogers have the credentials and qualifications to be a Fire Marshal? LT. KOFSKY: I don’t know if you has them now. But, I know when he first hired him, he was sending him to get classes. So he will probably fill the position. So at the time, I believe he did not. VLS: Have you had any interaction with Fire Marshal Rogers since he started with the Department? LT. KOFSKY: Yes. VLS: And how would you describe that interaction? LT. KOFSKY: No issues. VLS: Any other information that you have relative to the 3rd point in the Union’s letter. LT. KOFSKY: No, ma’am. VLS: Okay. The 4th point in the Union’s letter is that the Chief has attempted to influence and otherwise cause the Union to undermine some City objectives. Is that your opinion? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And what information do you have that relative to that point that supports your opinion? LT. KOFSKY: The Exhibit, Exhibit Number 1, cause Union undermines City objectives. We are supposed to be his trustworthy and forthright as we can, and when you have numbers changed, and so forth that undermines what we are trying to do. VLS: Anything else that goes to that bullet point? LT. KOFSKY: Not that I can think of offhand. VLS: How frequently do you interact or act directly with the Chief? - 30 - LT. KOFSKY: Not that much. Every now and then a text when he would need something or an e-mail would be sent, or he would just go through the chain of command. So. VLS: When you were the acting Training Chief, did you spend time at Headquarters? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. I did have, I have 1 or 2, I know for sure that I had 1 meeting with them, might have had 2, cause I needed some, I needed some direction on some things that were going on as far as the training goes, and these were the types of directions that I just couldn’t take upon myself. I needed to get it from his mouth, like what are we doing? So, I would have to go in, and he basically told me do what you need to do. So, okay. VLS: Were you aware that an outside consulting firm, PSSI, did a report on the Fire Department? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Did you meet with any members of the PSSI team? LT. KOFSKY: No, ma’am. No, when they were here doing that it was Training Chief Moyer that was still here. He was going (illegible) dealings with them. VLS: But, you, do you know of anyone on the CAD Management Team had direct communication with members of the PSSI team? LT. KOFSKY: No idea. I would assume the only person would be Chief Nichols because he is Battalion Chief. But as far as Dave or Mike, as far as Howard and Murphy go, I have no idea. VLS: Have you read the PSSI report? LT. KOFSKY: No. It’s 440-something pages. I have not. VLS: Give me just a moment and I will see if I have any additional questions, if not, we will go off the record. Is there another document that you brought that you wanted to show me. LT. KOFSKY: Yes. VLS: And we are going to mark whatever this is as Exhibit Number 7, and can you tell me what it, Exhibit Number 7 is? LT. KOFSKY: I believe the first bullet, the first point on there is the NFPA coding. As far as burnt motors, as fire calls, that was NFPA number 442, and that is the exact definition of it. Overheated motor or wiring. This one right here just - 31 - VLS: This is the 28th Avenue Fire. It says 2 dogs rescued. Had to grab the Chief’s daughter. As she ran around EO2 ladder rack was down and she would have run face first LT. KOFSKY: Face first VLS: Into a ladder LT. KOFSKY: Into a ladder. This is just one of the instances, now, the Chief, the Chief should be off duty, he should respond to fire calls, and so forth. But, he was constantly bringing his little daughter. And basically she would just be running around, and we all pretty much were trying to keep an eye on her, but this was one point where she was on this call, and on an engine our ladder racks, cause the ladders sit on top, so we have a rack that motorizes, comes down can get access to them. Well she came running around the truck and she would have gotten face first into the bottom end of a ladder. The bottom end of a ladder is what’s called the feet, and it is ridged so it can dig into the ground, that could have been very bad. VLS: Now, you are saying that you had to grab the Chief’s daughter? LT. KOFSKY: I grabbed her by the, I grabbed her by the collar. Before she ran into it. VLS: How old is she? Just an estimate. LT. KOFSKY: She was born after he started. She’s probably about 4 years old. And then the bottom call, that was the mother State Fire this year 2015. I had just gotten back. This is when Chief Moyer was still here. Now, as a Training Chief, when the Training Chief gets on, when the Training Chief arrives on the fire call, he becomes the safety officer. Now, I had just got back from a Safety class up in Ocala. I took a full week as Incident Safety Officer. Everyone knows at least in the Fire Service after a fire, you don’t just go in there, or during the fire you don’t go near the doors where the toxic smokes, and the combustibles can get on you or in your lungs and so forth. We have what is called monitors. Air monitors. That we bring around so you know the area is safe. So, the Chief is standing in front of the front door with smoke still rolling out of it. He does not even have (illegible) gear on. He is in jeans and a t-shirt, and you can hear one of the air alarms going off because someone has it. I went up to Chief Moyer and I told him does he realize we still have stuff coming out of there, and basically Moyer’s response was he looked at me and he goes, told me to get away. I already tried. And I believed it was in that week that Moyer said you know what I am out. He resigned. And I have a feeling that call was the last straw for Chief Moyer. VLS: Did you ever talk to Chief Moyer about his decision to leave? LT. KOFSKY: That call was part of it and then there was a lot of confrontations inside the office. VLS: And what was it about that call that Moyer expressed to you led in part to his decision to resign? - 32 - LT. KOFSKY: He did not get into it. But, I will tell you I have known Chief Moyer for 16 years. He goes above and beyond safety-wise. He sees something wrong, he immediately tries to remedy it. When you have the Chief of the Department that is constantly doing things unsafe, it takes a toll on everybody, and it gets very impressionable for your Firefighters. Oh, well if the Chief is doing it, why can’t I do it. That’s the last thing that you want. After that call, the building was deemed unsafe. With have (illegible) tape around it because some of the roof was sagging, and it was completely unsafe. I’ve got pictures. So we are walking around, looking around, and all of a sudden I see the Chief inside with the Fire Marshal. Neither of them are wearing gear or anything. So let alone air monitors, but they are inside past the tape and have no gear on, no helmets, nothing. VLS: Were their injuries arising out of this Seagate fire? LT. KOFSKY: No. No injuries. But, that’s just. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: Then I brought the VLS: Are there photographs of this Seagate fire? LT. KOFSKY: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. VLS: Do any of those photographs to your knowledge depict the Chief or the Fire Marshal? LT. KOFSKY: I don’t believe so. Because all of the pictures that I know of were taken by the Fire Marshal when he first got there of us fighting the fire. So you can see the intensity of it. VLS: Anything else that’s significant about Exhibit Number 7? LT. KOFSKY: No. VLS: What did you bring some other documents? LT. KOFSKY: These I wasn’t sure if it matter with Howard says I have the Certificate so why not. I texted the form State. VLS: We will go ahead and make that another Exhibit. originals? Now are you giving me LT. KOFSKY: Those are copies. Photo copies of all of my originals. VLS: So is there anything that you have given me as an Exhibit that you need copies made of. LT. KOFSKY: No. This is all yours. I can actually staple them together if you want. - 33 - VLS: I have a paper clip, take care of it that way. I guess we will take a break and turn off the recorder and we are going to move over to Fire Station 1 in hopes that we will, that you will be able to access the computer and address a few points that we have been unable to address. It is about 2:25 on 12/15 and I am turning off the recorder. VLS: Continuation of Steve Kofsky’s interview. We took a break to come over to Firehouse 1 so that Mr. Kofsky could access, better access, the computer. We are in LT. KOFSKY: Lieutenant’s office, Station 1. VLS: Okay, Lieutenant’s office, Station 1. There is no one else present. Do you have the computer up and running? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: I am asking you to see if you can go to the 12 incidents where changes that are noted on Exhibit Number 1, where changes were made after reports were sent to the State. Can you pull up the audit trail as it relates to those 12 incidents? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. quick. Okay. I can’t even tell that first one, let me just take a look real VLS: Maybe it would be easier to go off the record while you pull those up. LT. KOFSKY: No. VLS: No. Okay. LT. KOFSKY: No because I know this next one is. 1500258, should be your second checkmark down. Okay. So, Incident Number VLS: Yes. LT. KOFSKY: I have yes written next to it. VLS: Yes. LT. KOFSKY: Alright, so this call was a cooking fire, 475 North Road, which is Station 3 zone. Alright, so, once I click on it, I pull up the report. Alright. It shows the incident type 113, cooking fire. You have your losses, your contents, $5,000., pre-incident value of $5,000., so forth. Now, I can’t say what was changed on it, but when you go to history VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: Okay. Now this report, this call was back on January 18th. Alright. You look at the audit trail on January 18th, Dan Crisp, (illegible), Lieutenant walked it. Dan also reviewed it, the Battalion Chief Tim Bruener the next morning, before he gets our Shift, he looks at it. He locked it. And then during that day, within 39 minutes, Tim was - 34 - in there 4 times looking it, changing it, and doing whatever needs to be done. Alright. Generated a report for the morning recap. VLS: On what date was the report generated? LT. KOFSKY: January 19. And that was, the call was on January 18, it was night. There was a 6:00. In the morning on the 19th, you can see that it was the 7:39 our shift ends at 8, so what Tim was doing here he was doing that generated report to help with his morning recap for everything that happened within the last 24 hours. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: Alright. On January 26th is when I started hitting it. January 26th I updated it, and so forth, so it was ready for the State. Okay, when it says finalized, normally when I finalize something it is complete. Every now and then I will have to get back in there to change something or if someone needs something done, so on January 26th it was all said and done. August 19th, Chief McInerny got in there. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: September 8 is when Chief DiMaria had to get in there, and then on 4:59, at 5:05 so within 6 minutes he updated it and then he locked it. VLS: Okay. Can you print the audit trail, the document that is onscreen? LT. KOFSKY: Sure. Let me just make sure that it prints out at the right (illegible). VLS: Sure. LT. KOFSKY: Can’t see and that is the thing, I can’t pull up and see exactly what was done over here. VLS: Okay. But, just the actual audit trail that you have been referring to in giving me information. LT. KOFSKY: Last time I touched it was the 26th and then it was touched again 7 months later. VLS: Okay. Thank you. What I am going to do is have you go through each of the 12 incident reports and we’ll be printing the audit trail so the first page of this Exhibit Number 9 is going to be the audit trail that you refer to for Incident Number 1500258. LT. KOFSKY: 1500258. VLS: Okay, so let’s go to the next one. LT. KOFSKY: Next one will be 1500873. Alright this call was on February 19th, 3551 Gordon Drive, which is in Zone 1, listed as an outside equipment fire. The history for this call was this since January was my month, this unless something had changed - 35 - would be Dave Howard’s month. So it was locked on the 19th by Lieutenant Howard (illegible) since it was his call. Dave went ahead on March 25th, Dave was in 3 times, he locked it, updated, updated, and so forth. It was within 3 minutes of each other, actually 1 minute of each other. So he probably got in there, finalized it, locked it, so forth. And is on March 25th. It was touched again in September 8th at 5:53 which was a few minutes before this last call. But you can see Pete DiMaria was in it at 5:53 and 5:54, and he did updates on it. VLS: Okay. Thank you. So we will make the audit trail for Incident 1500873 the second page of Exhibit Number 9. LT. KOFSKY: 1500873. VLS: Okay. If you can pull up the next of the 12 incidents. LT. KOFSKY: Okay. The next one shows 1500881. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: This call was also an outside equipment fire on the 19th at 18:51 hours. VLS: February 19th? LT. KOFSKY: Yes. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: Wait a minute. See what we got going here. Let me see that real quick. Okay the first ones 258, (illegible), next one 881. Okay. I’m good. So 5th Avenue, Sandpiper, outside equipment fire, February 19th and it was, the call originally came in at 6:41. Pull up history. It shows that Chad locked it on the 19th. Since it was his report, he locked it at about 8:06 at night. Lieutenant Howard got in the 25th, and within about 2 minutes had locked it, updated it and so forth and finalized it. And that now it is on March 25, and on September 8 within about a 2 minute time frame, Chief DiMaria was in it twice. I’ll unlock it, and then lock it again. VLS: Okay. Thank you. LT. KOFSKY: Don’t know what we did to all this off the record. VLS: We will go off the record for a moment just to try to expedite things. VLS: Okay we are back on the record. We just went off for about a minute. And we now have got the 3rd Incident which is Incident Number LT. KOFSKY: 1500881. VLS: So we will make that audit trail a part of Exhibit Number 9. So we are now onto the. - 36 - LT. KOFSKY: We are now on the 4th VLS: On Incident LT. KOFSKY: 1501022. This one lists it has a 111 building fire. It was on the 27th of February at 5:26 in the morning. 1090 1st Avenue South. Brought up the audit history. Alright this one shows on the 27th that Zunzunegui was in it 4 times, probably updating everything that needed to be done. It showed Pecar in it on the 27th, and Dan in it again and then Gerry in it again. Cathy was in it. She might have had to print out a report. VLS: Who is Cathy? LT. KOFSKY: Cathy is our secretary. VLS: Thank you. LT. KOFSKY: February 28th which is the next day, Fire Marshal Rogers was in it. So within that day that is normal for people to get in and look at it, updating it, and so forth. Lieutenant Howard was in it on April 1st, on let’s see within, he was in it 3 times within about a 2 minute period, probably checking it, and locking it and so forth. So from March 1st, the next time it was entered was September 8th by Chief DiMaria and he was in it twice to update it. VLS: Can you tell whether there were any updates by Howard in on April 1? LT. KOFSKY: Status updated. History type. So that means that he probably finalized it. He either locked it, finalized it, or so forth, but he was in it with only that 2 times, let’s see, Howard, he was in it 3 times in a matter of 2 minutes, probably just updating, finalizing, doing whatnot. VLS: Okay. Thank you. And now we are on to the 5th of 12. LT. KOFSKY: Okay. 1501353. This report was at 600 Neapolitan Way, March 16th at 3:38 in the afternoon. It is a 111 building fire. So we’ll go to the history. VLS: When you say history, it is also known as an audit trail. LT. KOFSKY: Audit trail, correct. Alright on the 16th, Chief McInerny requested the CAD info, which is not uncommon. On the 17th also. Fire Marshal Rogers was in it, Gerald Pecar, who was the Lieutenant for that Shift, Rogers again was in it. So you had everyone in there on that. On the 22nd is when I got a hold of it, I did all of my updates on the 22nd and then I did my final lock on it, it shows that I was in it 3 times within about a 4 minute time period. So, on March 22nd, I went ahead and locked it out. On April 1st, Cathy got into it, and she had to generate a report for some reason, and then on September 8th, Chief DiMaria was in it twice. VLS: Okay, and were changes made? Can you tell? - 37 - LT. KOFSKY: You can see that lock status was updated, lock status was updated. Now what that can mean is lock status, he unlocked it, and then he went in and locked it again. When you, you have to be, you have to unlock a report in order to change something. So that is what happens. VLS: Okay, but you don’t know what was changed or if anything was changed? LT. KOFSKY: No, ma’am. VLS: From that. LT. KOFSKY: No, ma’am. The way to know if something was changed. Now this is something, I would have to get hopefully the State’s. The report that I would have sent to the State on in April, the initial report, if I was to get into that and have the State put it to where I could read it. Because remember I said it looks like gibberish. I can see what this report originally looked like, and then I could look to see what it looks like right now, and that is how I can tell what was exactly changed. VLS: Okay, and that could be done on all 12. LT. KOFSKY: That could be done on all 12 if needed be. Let’s put that together. You promise you have to give me time. VLS: I’ll give you time. LT. KOFSKY: It will come. LT. KOFSKY: Alright, so this is call 1501353. VLS: Okay, thank you. Can now find the 6th out of 12. LT. KOFSKY: Okay. Looks like the next one is 1502272. Alright. 2220 Snook Drive. This was a water vehicle fire. This was a boat fire that we had behind the dock. So, this was on March 6th at 12:52 in the afternoon. Going to the audit trail. Alright so on the 6th, alright so from the 6th all the way to the 9th, Dan Zunzunegui was the on duty Lieutenant and Joe Pecar who I believe was the Battalion Chief that day, they were in it, Fire Marshal Rogers was in it, Zunzunegui was in it numerous times probably what it was since there was a boat fire an investigation had to be done and so forth. So the initial call was on the 6th like I said and then by the 9th Zunzunegui had locked it. On May 29th, Rogers was in it again, he generated a report, maybe for the insurance company, I don’t know. I got a hold of it on June 2, I was in it on and off 3 times over 26 minute period. This was probably one of the ones that I had to call up to make sure it was said and done because of the boat, so I locked, I locked it out on June 3rd. I did my final lockout and it was opened again on September 8th by Pete DiMaria within 2 times within about a 45 second period. VLS: So now you are pulling up the 7th of 12. - 38 - LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. Alright, here’s your 6th one. 1502272. Alright, 7th item call number 1502555. This one was on May 27th, it was a 111 building fire, and the address was 383 Mooring Line Drive. Audit trail. On the 27th, you can see Adam Nadelman did the report, since he was the Lieutenant. On the 28th in the morning, Tim Bruener looks like he ran the morning reports since he is a Battalion Chief. On the 29th, Fire Marshal Rogers was in it twice. On the next month, on June 7th, I got a hold of it. I went ahead and locked it and did the update on it for the monthly report, and then it wasn’t touched again until September 8th when Chief DiMaria was in it twice. VLS: Okay, when did you finalize it, what date? LT. KOFSKY: Finalized it on June 7th, and it was opened again on September 8th. VLS: Thank you. You are getting your exercise going back and forth to the printer. LT. KOFSKY: I could use to lose a few pounds. Alright. VLS: Okay, we are now looking at, you’re handing me, the 7th of 12 audit trails. Next if you will pull up the 8th of 12. LT. KOFSKY: The 8th one is call number 1502684. This was on June 8th. It was a 111 building fire at 467 5th Avenue South. Audit trail. So on the 11th Robert Rogers was in it. On the 11th also Dave Howard did what he had to do, which he probably locked it and out and so forth, and finalized it. And then it wasn’t touched again until September 8th when Chief DiMaria was in it twice. VLS: Okay, is that unusual for the incident happened on June the 8th for the first person in it to be Rogers several days later? LT. KOFSKY: Sometimes it happens. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: It just depends. VLS: Alright. LT. KOFSKY: If it was an early morning call, it is the next shift so it’s 3 days later. VLS: Alright. Thank you. LT. KOFSKY: Your welcome. VLS: Okay, we are to number 9 of 12. LT. KOFSKY: Alright, call number 1502849. This call was on June 22nd at 11:10 at night, it’s a 111 building fire. 750 18th Avenue South. I believe it was the lightning strike. Alright so the history of this one, get it right unlocked. Alright so on the 23rd Robert Rogers was in it. On the 28th, Chad Haverkate was in it twice he was the - 39 - Lieutenant on duty for that call. Rogers was it in again on July 1st. It looks like Corey Adamski, or Dave Howard was in it on July 2nd. He had to do something, and Corey Adamski who was also on the call had to get back into it on July 13th, which probably means there was an issue with it, so they had to go on and fix it. So, then when this was done on July 13th, it wasn’t touched again until September 8th when Pete was in it twice, and then it looks like Rogers was just in it last month on November 3rd and he generated a report out of it. VLS: So, if it says generated report under history type, it would not have been any changes. LT. KOFSKY: No. He just generated a report. VLS: Okay. Thank you. LT. KOFSKY: Your welcome. VLS: Now you are pulling up 10 of 12. LT. KOFSKY: Okay, call number 1503070. This was on July 8th, it’s a 111 building fire. 181 Jasmine Circle. 2:12 in the afternoon. Brought up the audit history. So, on the 8th Corey was in it, as long as Tim Bruener who was probably the on duty Battalion Chief. The morning of the 9th, Tim was in it again. It looks like the 10th, Dave Howard got ahold of it to do his lock out since it was his month. Rogers was also in it on July 10, and it wasn’t touched again until September 8th when Chief DiMaria was in there. Alright there’s that one. VLS: Thank you. LT. KOFSKY: Your welcome. VLS: So we are on to 11 of 12. LT. KOFSKY: Okay, call 11, 1503201. July 17th at about 9:14 at night. 111 building fire. 2560 11th Circle. Alright so on the 17th, Joe Fricchione who did the report locked it. The 26th Dave Howard was in it. The 28th Rogers was in it. And then it looks like when Rogers was in it, he generated a report. So Dave finalized it on the 26th. On the 8th, Pete DiMaria was in it 4 times. VLS: The 8th of what. LT. KOFSKY: September, sorry, September 8th. The call. Dave it looks like he finalized it on July 26th. July 28th is when Fire Marshal Rogers generated a report. September 8th Pete was in it 4 times within about a 2 minute time period. On October 19th, Marshal Rogers was in it again to generate a report. VLS: Thank you. - 40 - LT. KOFSKY: Your welcome. Okay number 12. VLS: 12 of 12 LT. KOFSKY: 12 of 12. Alright this one, I’m sorry Incident number 1503598. This one was August 15th at 4:00 in the afternoon. This one was water vehicle fire, code number 134. This was in Gordon’s Pass. Audit trail shows on the 16th, Chad was in it 4 times, he was the Lieutenant on duty. On the 22nd, Dave Howard looked at it. On the 24th, Corey had to get into it. On August 26th, Dave Howard was in it again to do a status update. He was in it twice on the 26th. Corey Adamski had to get into it again on August 27th. Rogers got into it again on August 31st. Looks like Dave was in it on September 5 and it was finalized. I got into it on September 8th. I had to look at it for some reason, not sure why, but then on October 31st, Chief Nichols had to issue a, Chief Nichols generated a report. Actually if I got into it on the 8th, this might have been when Pete contacted me, I might have had to actually do this change. Because if you see this one was done this was handwritten, this wasn’t on here. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: I might have done the change on this one. VLS: And the change would have done, been done at the request of whom? LT. KOFSKY: It would have been probably Chief Nichols. VLS: Okay. Do you recall anything about what he told you with respect to finalizing, changing? LT. KOFSKY: No, ma’am. VLS: Okay. Thank you. LT. KOFSKY: I’ll print that out. VLS: Okay. The other thing that I would like you to pull up for me is the structure fire call at 5th Avenue North. LT. KOFSKY: Yes, yes, yes. Okay. VLS: I think you thought that was report 2394. LT. KOFSKY: Okay. Definitely wasn’t that report. VLS: It was not. LT. KOFSKY: Nope, it was not. take me some time to locate that. Definitely was not. That’s not my report. - 41 - It could VLS: Okay. I’m going to turn off the recorder while you search for that document. It is about 2 after 3. LT. KOFSKY: I was off. VLS: Okay we are going back on the record. It is now about 3:07 approximately. This is the continuation of the interview of Steve Kofsky. I asked him to see if he could find the Incident Report that he previously referred to which was a structure fire call on 5th Avenue North. Have you been able to locate that Incident Report? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And what Incident Report number is? LT. KOFSKY: This incident is number 1403697. The date of it is September 6th of 2014. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: Address was 1400 5th Avenue North, Apartment 3B. VLS: And you were the one who? LT. KOFSKY: I did the report. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: This report. This is the narrative from it. Originally came in, PD was on the scene, they confirmed there was a fire. It says in the report, heavy smoke was encountered inside and fire was found to be in the kitchen area on top of a stove. Second hand line request from Ladder 1, and pull the top free connect. I established a water supply, and so forth. No injuries were reported. Chief 1 was there. He arrived on scene and I put it in there. VLS: Meaning Chief McInerny. LT. KOFSKY: Chief McInerny was there. Yes. VLS: Can you determine when he arrived at the scene. Is that shown? LT. KOFSKY: I can pull that up on this one right here. Unless he showed up with Larry. It does not show his Unit on the apparatus. VLS: But if it is in your narrative you believe that he was there. LT. KOFSKY: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. So, but… let’s see. Everyone has their own little narratives on here. - 42 - VLS: Okay, I believe the reason you brought this up to me earlier in the interview was you cited this as a, as the Chief misinterpreting the intensity of the fire in the way that he reported it to City council. You said, and I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, I’m just looking back at my notes that you were the pump on that call and there was very little water on the fire. Is that your recollection? LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. It’s got my narrative doesn’t say the amount of water used. I do put heavy smoke was encountered, but that it was a fire in the kitchen on top of the stove. The amount of damage done to the property was $40,000.00, contents were valued at $5,000. The way that it was presented on the e-mail (since this was 9/6/14 I might still have it, I don’t know). The misinterpretation I was referring to was the way he put this to the council with the e-mail that he put out. You would have thought that it was a blazing inferno to where the world was coming to an end. You can ask anyone on that scene that was not the case, not even close, not at all. Just ‘cause there’s heavy smoke encountered inside, does it mean there is a heavy fire going on. It means that it has been sitting in there, and VLS: Can you LT. KOFSKY: It’s smoky. VLS: Can you print the Incident Report including the narrative? LT. KOFSKY: What I can do. Let me see how this would print. Let me see how this. What I might have to do depending on how this prints is I would highlight this, transfer it to a Word document and print it out (illegible) VLS: Okay, I think I understand LT. KOFSKY: Let me see what this does real quick. This is the (illegible). Yes, I delete so much stuff because I hate garbage. I don’t even have it. I know there is like Chief Nichols, Chief Bruener. I don’t think they delete anything. They would probably have it. If you give that September 6th. VLS: Okay, okay. LT. KOFSKY: Yeah. See it does not give you the full narrative. VLS: Okay, so you are going to drop down and print it separately. Whoa. LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. So it will show you though the other reports VLS: Yes. LT. KOFSKY: Battalion 1, Battalion 2, Battalion 4. It’s got all of those on there that you can actually see. And here is the attachment for that report right there. - 43 - VLS: Okay. We are going to mark as Exhibit Number 10 to your interview. Okay. Thank you. LT. KOFSKY: Now, since (illegible). Here is what I was talking to you about. This is Mike Moore initiating what (illegible) at Naples, Naples Bath and Tennis or whatever it is saying I will (illegible) who is in charge of setting up our monthly training, that was when I was in charge. So Bill says it is pleasure, looks forward to seeing us. Mike sends me an e-mail saying below Bill Dyer retired from Firefighter and Director of Facilities for Naples Bay Resort, he wants us to come by, and refresh us on the hydrants, the layouts, etcetera, thinks it would be well worth looking into, let me know what you think. Thanks. This is at the time I found out that basically we had been lied to, he already hired a Training Officer and this is back on September 15th, 2015, I was in Miami Dade teaching HAZMAT classes at the time. So my response to Mike, I cc’d the three Battalion Chiefs, and also Chief McInerny, Lieutenant I will no longer be acting position of Training Officer of our Department. I forwarded to Battalion Chiefs so that he could take appropriate measures for this request. That was at 6:43, but 6:46 Mac, Chief McInerny sends me back any particular reason you are not interested in continuing to help advance the Fire Department Rescue and are training needs. So I responded back, due to recent discussions pertaining to the Training Officer qualifications, I feel that I cannot continue in the position of Training Officer for our Department. I told him that I would be happy to sit down with him when I return from teaching HAZMAT in Miami Dade, I tell him that I’ll be back in town Thursday night and will be available Friday. Please take a breath, Chief responds to me, please take a breath and come by on Friday, or Monday, I should be in the office both Friday morning and then after 2 o’clock thanks. And that’s when I said yes sir I’ll see you on Friday. VLS: Okay, and that is when you believe that the meeting took place which would be the Friday following Tuesday September 15th? LT. KOFSKY: Yes. So. September 15th when this happened was on a Tuesday, so Friday the 18th is when I would have had the meeting. VLS: Okay. Very good. Can you print the e-mail chain we just referred to and we are going to mark that as Exhibit Number 11. LT. KOFSKY: Yes, ma’am. VLS: I don’t know, I don’t recall from my notes if there were other loose ends that you wanted to check on the computer. LT. KOFSKY: I was going to give you the dates when I resubmitted those VLS: Oh, yes, resubmitted the reports to the State. LT. KOFSKY: Yes. VLS: Thank you. - 44 - LT. KOFSKY: So it was last month November 15th and it was reports from January to August, all the ones that I gave you. Here to update our fire reports that have revisions done to them, if you have any questions, let me know, and this was to Daldlfnie Burk, November 15, 2015. VLS: And as far as what you sent, were those the underlined reports or LT. KOFSKY: Those are VLS: The usual? LT. KOFSKY: No, no. Those are the 12 reports that I handed you. These are the ones that had changes made to them. This was not your regular monthly report. VLS: Okay. LT. KOFSKY: This was the ones that had the changes done. VLS: Alright, if you can print that, we will mark that as Exhibit Number 12. LT. KOFSKY: There’s the e-mail between myself and Chief McInerny and then the last page is the Daldlfnie (illegible). VLS: Okay. Is there any other documents at this time that you would like to pull for my attention? LT. KOFSKY: I don’t think so. VLS: Okay. It is my understanding that my directive was to conduct an inquiry to the allegations that were contained in the October 15, October 21 letter from the Union to Bill Moss, concerning Chief McInerny. Is there anything further you would like to bring to my attention at this time. LT. KOFSKY: No, ma’am. VLS: Okay. With that in mind, we will conclude your interview. It is now about 3:20 on December 15th. Thank you. #2156740 - 45 - RECORDED INTERVIEW OF DRIVER ENGINEER CHRIS CLISSOLD ON 11/19/15 VLS: Testing 1, 2. Okay, testing 1, 2. Alright, we are good to go. As I explained, my name is Vicki Sproat. I’m an attorney with the Henderson Franklin law firm. I am going to give you a card. We have been retained by the City of Naples to conduct an investigation or an inquiry into allegations of misconduct on the part of the Chief of the Naples Fire & Rescue Department. The allegations were raised in the letter dated October 21, 2015 sent by the Union to the City Manager. Today is November 19, 2015 and with me in the room is Chris Clissold. Am I pronouncing it correctly. CLISSOLD: Yes, ma’am. VLS: And I have asked that he give an interview in connection with this inquiry. Do you understand that I am going to record this interview. CLISSOLD: Yes, I do. VLS: And before getting started I would like to make several statements that is that City policy requires employees to be forthright, and truthful, and cooperative in providing information in connection with an inquiry or investigation. Do you understand that? CLISSOLD: I do. VLS: And City policy also provides that retaliation against the employee for making a complaint of misconduct or participating in an inquiry or investigation is prohibited. You understand that? CLISSOLD: I do. VLS: And do you understand that if you would feel that you have been retaliated against in any way for having participated in this interview that you should report that back to the Human Resource Department. CLISSOLD: I understand. VLS: Alright, so we will get right to business. CLISSOLD: Okay. VLS: Would you just state your full name. CLISSOLD: Christopher Steven Clissold. VLS: And what is your current position with the Naples Fire Department? CLISSOLD: I am a Driver/Engineer currently assigned to Tower 2 on C Shift. VLS: And how long have you worked for NFD? -1- CLISSOLD: It’s been about 15 and a half years. VLS: And have you held other positions besides Driver/Engineer? CLISSOLD: Positions meaning started off as a Firefighter, then continued my education and became a Paramedic/Firefighter, and then was promoted to Driver/Engineer Paramedic. VLS: When did you receive the promotion to Driver/Engineer Paramedic? CLISSOLD: You are going to test my memory now. I would say it’s been almost 4 years. VLS: Were you promoted under Chief McInerny? CLISSOLD: I was. VLS: Have you always been assigned to Battalion C? CLISSOLD: No, I have not. VLS: Okay, what other Battalions? CLISSOLD: I’m sorry. I started my career off with A Shift, where I believe I was there for 10 to 11 years. Most of my career I was on A Shift. When I promoted, I was moved, the promotion spot actually happened to be on B Shift so I spent, I want to say almost a year on B Shift, and then I was transferred to C Shift. VLS: When you were on A Shift who was the Battalion Chief? CLISSOLD: Oh, geez, went through quite a few. VLS: That’s, at the time you left who was the Chief? CLISSOLD: Time I left, I believe it was Chief Vogel, if I am not mistaken. We had quite a bit of movement going on right around that time. VLS: And then for the limited period of time when you were on B Shift, who was the Battalion Chief? CLISSOLD: I am pretty sure that it was Chief Nichols. Mike Nichols. VLS: Now you are on C Shift, is that Battalion Chief DiMaria? CLISSOLD: DiMaria. VLS: DiMaria, oh I am going to have to get that right. So since you have been on C Shift have you been in Station 2? Assigned to Station 2? -2- CLISSOLD: Pretty much, I believe the first few months I started off technically at Station 1, then again we had some movement going on. We had one of our newly promoted Lieutenant’s got into a horrific car accident and so we had some people that were shuffled to cover that for quite a while. In that shuffling, I started out at Station 1 and then I was moved to Station 2 due to the need for personnel. VLS: Who is your direct supervisor? CLISSOLD: Adam Nadelman is my Lieutenant. VLS: And he in turn reports to DiMaria? CLISSOLD: Yes, ma’am. VLS: As I mentioned we are here about a letter that was sent by Local 2174 to the City of Naples on October 21, 2015. I presume that you have seen that letter. CLISSOLD: I have. VLS: And in fact is your signature on that letter? CLISSOLD: Yes, it is. VLS: And your signature is on that letter as the Vice President of the Local 2174? CLISSOLD: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Does that letter also express your individual views and opinions as an employee of the Naples Fire Department? CLISSOLD: Yes, it does. VLS: I am not going to question you as to the details of the Union meetings that led to that letter being sent. Instead my focus and focus of this inquiry and investigation is to the basis of the allegations in that letter. Because we are trying to determine, look at those. So, I am not going to ask you about Union, about issues dealing with the terms and conditions of employment that might be subject to the bargaining unit. If you feel like I am getting into something that is inappropriate you can tell me, but that is not my intent. CLISSOLD: Okay. VLS: Did you bring with you any documents for my review today? CLISSOLD: No I did not. Just for my own notes for recollection and points. VLS: Have you discussed this interview with anyone? -3- CLISSOLD: My interview or previous interviews. Oh, yes, but just on a general note as to the forum, and how nice you were. VLS: Did you speak to Lieutenant Nadelman? CLISSOLD: Yes, because he is the only one that has been interviewed so far. VLS: That’s correct. CLISSOLD: Yes, and just being that I think it was more to kind of put my mind at ease because of the fact that I really never been in this type of forum before. That he told me that it was very relaxed and very easy to talk with you. That was enough to put my mind at ease. VLS: Did Lieutenant Nadelman ever share with you a document he prepared that relates to what he believes are the factual points that, excuse me let me start all over again. Did Lieutenant Nadelman share with you a document that he prepared that addressed the factual basis behind the points raised in the Union’s letter? CLISSOLD: I would not say he shared it with me because the fact that this letter came from the Union and because I am the Vice President and have been involved in quite a few of the dealings that that in fact was compiled certain points were compiled from the collective group. So, his particular document per se I have not seen, but I could tell you that there are probably many points on that document that have, that were the thoughts of many. So. VLS: Let’s just go through the letter then that you have in front of you the October 21 letter and it says in the 3rd paragraph, that it is the membership’s position that Chief McInerny has created a poor working environment and has shown a lack of leadership and inability to make sound decisions on matters effecting the Community and that is your opinion? CLISSOLD: Correct. VLS: When did you, in your career with the Fire Department come to the conclusion that there was a poor working environment under the Chief? CLISSOLD: Um, I don’t have a specific date and time, I would say over the course, you know, certain comments, statements, actions, kind of led up to that collective thought so. VLS: I mean are we talking it’s about something recent within the past 6 months, or are we talking about a number of years that you believe that there has been a poor working environment under the Chief? CLISSOLD: I would say again that it has been just a collection of things that have happened during his tenure that have led up to, you know, I don’t think it was -4- necessarily one particular instance. I think it has been like I said a collection of events that have happened that have shown that over time. VLS: Okay. CLISSOLD: So yeah. VLS: There are 4 enumerated points in the October 21, 2015 letter and I think I would like to go through those in order. CLISSOLD: Okay. VLS: The first one is that the Chief has mislead the Community and City staff and in particular he has created the misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities. What are your direct observations or perceptions that give rise to that allegation? CLISSOLD: Well, I gotta tell you on some of these points, even though I am like probably agree, you know personally with some of these, I don’t necessarily have maybe what you would call factual evidence that I could say, here’s you know the, here’s a memo or here’s something that just from my personal experience, um, you know, that that’s there has been an overwhelming push from the Chief and actually I think it was one of his first statements when he actually was hired by the City, was you know one of his first projects was to try to get a new Station 1 filled. And so to that point, being that it is a little over facility and spends a lot of time at that Station, you know it kinda sounded like a pretty good idea in the beginning. We had a new Chief coming in the door that none of us was familiar with and he came in with a lot of grandiose plans of how he wanted to change our Department. A lot of things sounded good in the beginning. And then over time, after seeing and observing some of the interactions he had with City council members, and you know City managers at the various meetings, it started to, I guess change some of our minds with maybe some of the tactics that were being used to achieve that goal. So, you know as far as you know, again, these are just kind of personal, you know, observations that I have. Again with even with I believe that point that also the fire boat falls under that point. Again it was it has been a need ever since I have been employed by the City, but we never really never had an adequate fire boat. Multiple breakdowns over the years, and things like that. Multiple hand-me-down boats if you will from other Departments just to have an apparatus if you will that was called a fire boat. So, you know, I know that was one of his plans to try to get a fire boat, and just being in different meetings with him and hearing his wants and desires of what kind of fire boat he wanted, you know always sounded to us, or let me, this point I definitely, this is like I said, this is more of an opinion and a feeling of mind rather than something I can, but it always sounded to me that it was much more of a grandiose plan of what he was looking for because as to what I thought the City was actually going to provide. Again that was something that was observed through countless Council meetings of the, you know requests and denials, and requests and questioning of why such an extravagant boat and this, that and the other. Meanwhile, you know the guys on the line were going out time and time -5- again on a boat that wasn’t, I believe it was actually documented, it wasn’t quite seaworthy, but we were, we were still providing services with a boat like that. So, I would say that those 2 points were probably my personal opinion feeling on that one. VLS: Let me go back to the 1st point that you made which is with regards to I guess the Chief’s desire or plans to get a new Station 1. Do you agree a new Station is necessary or advisable? CLISSOLD: There seems to be, my perception from working for the City after all these years, is there is this fine line between what the City is willing to spend and what we can get, and use, and have be functional. So, I understand that point very well after 15 and a half years. So, it’s been my belief that I believe Station 1 could really just need a remodel as opposed to, you know, a complete tear down and new site across the street, you know, bigger, better Taj Mahal as it has been put a few different times in some meetings. But, again, you know it is kinda hard. It’s been his opinion and his want to, to have this new Station with more capabilities, I guess in his mind, and I guess it has been in the background, in my opinion that the City does not typically at least through the Fire Department go through that kind of expense and things like that as opposed to possibly remodeling what we have and making what we have better and more functional for us. So, you know, that’s. VLS: Do you know whether the City has conducted any type of analysis of the need or the current condition of the facility, whether they had any studies done? CLISSOLD: Yes. I know that there has been multiple companies and walk-throughs and analysis of the Station and the condition and whatnot. I also. Some of this as we talk today I’ll try to process what I am going to say as maybe it was second or third hand knowledge as opposed to certain items that I will be able to say that I was actually in the room and heard these things. VLS: And I do want to break that down. CLISSOLD: Just so it’s not. I don’t want to give off the false impression that I know you know that I know a lot more than I do. But, I think in a lot of work place environments I think, you know, knowledge is passed that way and especially through the Fire Department because we have a chain of command and we have different things, you know, just because you don’t hear something, you know from the Fire Chief’s mouth or a memo, you know it travels from like say a Battalion Chief to a Lieutenant to the guys. So, yes, I am aware that there have been multiple studies done on Station 1. I am also aware of certain tactics that were used to try to show maybe a lot more disrepair of the Station that was highlighted through some of these walk-throughs if you will, and certain inspections that were to highlight the need for, you know, and maybe the Chief’s mind of brand new. VLS: Okay. I would like to talk about that. You have used the term I think tactics twice. Explain to me being as specific as you can what tactics you believe the Chief used to highlight the need or give a greater impression of need with regard to Station 1. -6- CLISSOLD: Again, this wasn’t something I did, oversaw directly, but I heard and was told that as someone was walk-through or notified that hey someone is coming to look, or to inspect that it was made very clear that you needed to make you know to the guys in the Station for the day, you needed to make sure that you plan out the showers, and the bathroom facilities were in great need to be repaired. That they were in total disrepair and needed to be, you know, this is one of the reasons why we need a new Station, and things like that. VLS: Were you, you said that was something that was, you did not hear that directly from the Chief, and where did you gain that information? CLISSOLD: I would say without having exact names it was something that was, I guess it was probably something that was passed from Battalion Chief to the Station Lieutenants at the time, on duty Lieutenants. VLS: So you would have heard it from the Station Lieutenant? CLISSOLD: Yes. VLS: And was it your impression upon hearing it from the Station Lieutenant that you were to, were you pointing out things that were not problems or, I mean, I am trying, do you get the impression that you were being asked to falsify or misrepresent anything? CLISSOLD: No, because there was definitely a need, if you will. There was something that needed to be fixed, but it was more of a make sure that item A, B, C are focused on, and items D, E, F can just be overlooked so to speak. So, yeah that is all. VLS: Any other tactics that you became aware of that the Chief used to achieve that goal to try to promote a new Fire Station 1. CLISSOLD: Not that comes to my mind right now. VLS: And you mentioned as to Station 1 the Chief’s interactions with City council. Did you attend City council meeting or watch the video of City council? CLISSOLD: Most definitely. Probably every one. VLS: Attending personally? CLISSOLD: No, no, no, watching. VLS: And over what period of time have you been watching the City council? CLISSOLD: Oh geez, on and off throughout my career. But I would say more focused as to trying to catch at least the ones that regularly had, you know, like Fire Department Budgeting items or requests just to kind of get the tone and tenure of what the Council, maybe which way they were leaning and maybe which way we could expect. -7- VLS: Do you as to the Fire Station, do you believe that the Chief mislead Council as to the need for a new Fire Station 1? CLISSOLD: I do. VLS: Tell me as best you can on how you feel that the Chief mislead Council. CLISSOLD: A lot, again this is just personal opinion, because I don’t have a document or anything that I can say this is, this shows something, I just feel that because he shared his opinion with us when he first got hired that he was pretty upset with the fact that the administration part of our Fire Department was in a separate building. Actually he always, out administration has to share a building with the Police Department and he believes that he needs to combine the administration with an actual, you know, house, Fire Station. That seemed to be a big factor of his and being that there is no extra room at Station 1 currently, that that would not be accomplished without building a new Fire Station to where he would be able to have the, you know, say as to what this part is going to be administration, this is going to be the Fire House, this is going to have x amount of more room, bigger and better things. I believe, again over time and listening to some of the council meetings and I believe just on my impression of hearing, you know, maybe what their wishes were did not necessarily always correlate with what the Chief was trying to do. I know that again I am sure that everyone will be very happy with a new Fire Station, you know, and I’m sure that it would probably be kinda nice to have, you know, maybe our administration with, you know, in the same house, but is it a necessity? You know we have been operating like this for, you know a lot longer than I have been here, and it has always seemed to work, so again just a personal opinion. VLS: I understand that there may be a difference of opinion, but I do want to make sure that I understand in what way the Chief, you believe that the Chief mislead council. CLISSOLD: Okay. I guess the only thing I can go back to is my belief that over the course of different studies and walk-throughs that the Chief tried to show a need for a new Fire Station that I believe isn’t warranted. VLS: Okay. CLISSOLD: So without, you know, again, having any particular piece of information or anything, other than just items like, you know, I think that when you are trying to get something that you want, and you may, and you go, you make sure that you show somebody, you know, a few negative spots and highlight how old the Station is, and what it doesn’t have for your needs. You know, I think that, that’s just what he was trying to do. So. VLS: Do you think he lied about anything with respect to that? CLISSOLD: You know without being really a part of, I’m sure closed door meetings or e-mails back and forth between himself and other people, I can just tell you what I have noticed on the outside. -8- VLS: Let’s move on to the fire boat. You stated that the, in your tenure with the Fire Department that there was never an adequate fire boat. What fire boat was there before it was replaced? CLISSOLD: I can’t even tell you. I believe there’s probably been at least 3 fire boats since I have been here, and again, without having all of the, you know, documentation in front of me, I know that it’s, I believe a couple of the fire boats in the past have been basically hand-me-down boats from the Police Department that they basically used it, and it was time for them to get a new boat. We needed a boat, so they said here you go, and we have had to retrofit it, you know, to kind of fit our needs. VLS: Now, do you ever man the fire boat? CLISSOLD: Have in the past. I have not as of the recent future, the recent, just due to my position where I am currently working. I am out of Station 2 where Station 1 personnel normally man the fire boat. I am on a truck that doesn’t normally respond to the fire boat, but I have in the past, plenty of times. VLS: How long ago would you say that you had any actual involvement on the fire boat? CLISSOLD: It’s probably been about 3 years since I have, maybe actually ran a call on the fire boat. VLS: Now the fire boat has been replaced now. CLISSOLD: Correct. VLS: With the, do you believe that the boat that is currently being operated by the Fire Department is adequate? CLISSOLD: I believe it will be once we put a capable fire pump on the boat, and I know that, from what I hear it’s supposed, it’s a budgeted item that is supposed to be taken care of this next year, but the boat itself, the vessel, yeah, yes, very much so. VLS: So, what did, do you believe the Chief did to mislead the Community or council about the need for the fire boat? CLISSOLD: Well, again this is, a lot of this is going to be kind of personal opinion, and just observations from certain interactions that he has had with council and meetings, and then certain probably e-mail threads and chains that I have been kind of a party to. That’s, you know, kind of went back quite a few years, I don’t have an exact date, but it seems like it has been, this has been a hot topic issue again this, and say the new Station, almost ever since the Chief was hired. But, basically again this kind of goes back to what my observations have been since working with the City as to you know what they feel like they’re going to spend on an item and what we ultimately get so I believe the fire boat issue even though there has always been a great need for a new capable vessel. I believe, you know, with his idea of wanting, and I hate to put an exact -9- dollar figure on it, but I know, that there was, there’s quite a bit of back and forth with, you know, 600,000, 700,000 dollar fire boat that, you know, basically, would have been probably the best fire boat on the West coast of Florida, um, that’s it always met resistance from the majority of City council as to the need and for a boat with that capability in that price tag. So, even though I know the Chief started off with that, he never seemed to waiver from the type of boat that he wanted from the get-go, and I know that, again this is going to go back through, I know let’s say Battalion Chief Mike Nichols, he, he’s kind of our boat Battalion Chief, um, he was born and raised on the water. He’s had, you know, all of his life with boats. So he kind of, I think defaulted to, you know, having to head that task up as the spec on a boat, and this and that, and over the years, it was mentioned quite a few times that hey Chief maybe we don’t need something like this, we really can get the job done with this much lesser expense of a fire boat. But, again, it was my impression and my observation through multiple dealings with the council that he just wasn’t waiving from that. Even though there was conversations about well, you know, maybe we can get you X amount for a fire boat. It was always no, no, I want this, we need this capability and I believe that we went quite a few years without having an adequate fire boat because… VLS: So you are saying that delayed because the Chief wanted the top notched CLISSOLD: Correct. VLS: And he insisted on that, that delayed action? CLISSOLD: It felt like he was unwavering from his original stance on what he wanted as a fire boat, as compared to what could have been done with working and compromising with the City council, and having, you know the Fire Department actually has, you know, an adequate fire boat from way back, so. VLS: What e-mail threads that you refer to, what was in those e-mail threads? CLISSOLD: It was mostly, I don’t have dates and times, and I don’t have, I know that a couple of ones that come to mind is, I know that certain council members had sent out, and I don’t know maybe e-mail is not the correct word, but I know that there was some neighborhood association meetings that there was back and forth with council members talking with, maybe say their association members, saying that the Chief was trying to push, you know, this type of fire boat and at this expense, and that they weren’t agreeing with him, and, you know, it got kind of contentious, I guess, in my opinion with, you know, different reports like that. VLS: Were you copied on those e-mails? How was it that you came to see those? I am not suggesting that you shouldn’t have seen them. CLISSOLD: No, no. VLS: But, I mean were they - 10 - CLISSOLD: I am trying to remember. Because I will be honest with you, over the years, the Chief would copy either all or some of the members to show the heated battle I guess, if you will, or between himself and some council members, but I can’t say for certain if that was what I am actually talking about now was, like, that I was cc’d or maybe it was just shared to me with, by somebody else or maybe even somebody gave me the actual homeowners association flyer that came out that had this dialogue in there. VLS: Have you kept those e-mails? CLISSOLD: I have not, no. VLS: Alright. CLISSOLD: Not that particular one, now I can’t say. I’m sure I have some cc’d copies of e-mails that the Chief has sent to, again either say myself because I am on the executive board for the Union, but nothing that, again, it would just be certain correspondence or hey you may want to look at this article because it shows, maybe it had a certain topic in there, that maybe one of the council members or something was talking about. VLS: Do you… CLISSOLD: I am sure that I have VLS: Do you believe those e-mails contained misleading statements by the Chief? CLISSOLD: Without going back and looking through every one, I can’t say for sure. To be honest with you. I don’t believe so, but I can’t say for sure. VLS: And, you described him as being unwavering on the desire for this, sort of the top of the line. Did, in what ways did he mislead council on the need? CLISSOLD: In my opinion, I believe that there was certain deficiencies in our water distribution system that he tried to highlight the need for such an extravagant fire boat as to show the need for it. I am not saying there wasn’t certain deficiencies, but I believe that once the initial handful of requests for this boat weren’t being met, I believe that he tried to find another end around if you will as to showing the need for, you know, the capabilities, if you will, of such, you know, a boat. VLS: What were the deficiencies in the water distribution system that he highlighted? CLISSOLD: We have areas in our City that some of the hydrant flows are not optimal. And, I think that he tried to highlight those, and tried to show the benefit of having a fire boat that could possibly supplement the system. But, again, in my opinion, I believe there was such a shortsighted, that the boat was only going to be able to, in optimal situations, you know benefit those certain areas. And again, it’s just, it seemed to me that, you know, after he was told no, no, no, and different tactics that it was just, it kind - 11 - of became evident with the council’s willingness, what they were going to spend and what he was trying to get done, that’s all. VLS: Anything else that you would like to share about the allegation that the Chief has mislead the Community and staff by creating a misimpression of needs where they do not exist with regards to apparatus and facilities. CLISSOLD: No, not really. I think that there is some, there is some probably some other topics. I know that I spoke about my opinion a lot, and what we already spoke about, but I think it would even be a little bit more far reaching, you know, on some of the other topics. So, I think that’s far as my statement goes, I think, you know, that’s probably. VLS: And by the way, let me mention I have given you my business card, and I understand that you feel on the spot and might think of something later that you wished you had told me or something, and you can you know send me an e-mail or something if there is something additional you want to bring to my attention. CLISSOLD: Okay, I appreciate it. VLS: Okay. Let’s go on to the 2nd point in the letter that the Union sent to the City on October 21, 2015 and that is that the Department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity. Is that your… CLISSOLD: It is. VLS: That correctly states your opinion. Okay. Tell me how you believe that the Chief has misrepresented or exaggerated fire calls. CLISSOLD: Okay. Again because of the nature of the Fire Department, we don’t necessarily get direct face-to-face communication or one-on-one with the Fire Chief. A lot of commands, if you will, kind of comes through the chain of command. So, it was fairly clear as soon as the Chief was hired that through the chain of command that the way we were reporting our calls, when we were actually making our reports out, were changing. And it was directed through the chain of command, if you will, that, you know, a call that in the past for the past, you know, at least in my, again, tenure, like I said I would have been here for 9 plus years before the Chief was hired. Had gone through a couple of Fire Chiefs before him. That certain calls that we would go on that was say, that we would normally classify as an electrical hazard, something of that nature, was now to be reported as structure fires. So, it was a clear change in the way that we reported our calls. So, this was never told to me from the Chief, he never sat down with me, and you know, said, you know, Driver/Engineer Clissold this is what I want you to do, but it was something to the effect, you know, I would sit down to do a report and, you know, either after it was completed or during the process, you would, you know get say the phone would ring and Battalion Chief would say, you know, Lieutenant Nadelman, you know, you need to change, have Clissold change the report to, you know, structure fire. When, you know, it had been like I said all along we have - 12 - multiple ways of reporting different types of hazards or things that we had done in the past to code these calls that we had normally gone on, as electrical hazards or something to that effect as opposed to maybe a full-blown structure fire call. VLS: Okay, so I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but after you are saying, after Chief McInerny arrived you would get through the chain of command instructions to code an incident differently, or a hazard differently. CLISSOLD: Correct. VLS: And did those instructions begin right after the Chief came on? When did that start? CLISSOLD: I can’t give you an exact date or time. I would just say that there was definitely a night and day difference between how we had done things in the past to shortly after. VLS: Okay, so it was, you saw the change around the time of his administration? CLISSOLD: That’s correct. VLS: The coding. Is this, I am just learning about your profession. The coding is that the NFIRS coding. CLISSOLD: Yes, ma’am. VLS: NFIRS. And when is it that you complete at report. CLISSOLD: Typically it is right after you get back from a call. VLS: And under what circumstances would you as the Driver/Engineer be the one completing the report? CLISSOLD: It kind of varies to be honest with you. Sometimes depending on how many people you have on a truck, sometimes it is just a, you know, you got the first one, I got the second one, you got the third one. I mean there’s really no rhyme or reason certain Lieutenants maybe will feel like because of the nature of the call or the a lot of the say true structure fire calls something that is a lot more in depth and in detail will do the report themselves. Certain medical call. Again, it might just rotate through the crew depending on a lot of times we have quite a few calls so it is just nice to share the load a little bit so there is no rhythm or reason who does the report. VLS: What training have you received on how to code a hazard or an incident or response? CLISSOLD: On-the-job training. VLS: Alright. - 13 - CLISSOLD: You know, you just, it is something that you learn from day one coming in. You have, you know, 3 or 4 probationary period, you have plenty of opportunities to do, and look, and be taught how to do the calls and it just carries on from there. I mean, we are running almost 5,000 calls a year between just a couple of Stations. And you rotate that through so there is plenty of opportunity for everyone to get their hands dirty so to speak. VLS: So there is no particular course or training you receive on how NFIRS coding is to be done? CLISSOLD: I can say that over the years going through a couple different software improvements and that, that we have had a little bit of classroom opportunity with the showing us the different formats of the new programs that we have had and in those trainings, there has been instruction by whomever has been say teaching the class, as to where or how you code certain items. So, yeah without being able to say on such and such a date I went to this class that was provided. So, you know, I would say just over the course of time and with certain classes like that, and upgrades that we have had. I have had some time of formal instruction on that, and then there has also been there is typically a pretty thick manual on all the Stations that is more detailed and describing certain ways of coding a call or which calls falls under certain categories, that you can also refer back to, to make sure that you get it right. Before it gets sent on. VLS: So you input it into, so when you come back from the Station, you are the one that is completing the report, do you enter it into a software system, the report? CLISSOLD: Correct. VLS: And what is the name of that software system? CLISSOLD: What’s the name of it? I believe we are on Image Trend now. VLS: Okay. And do you know what happens to the report once you enter it into Image Trend? CLISSOLD: Yes, somewhat, basically, so a report gets down, gets completed, then it is the job of the Station Lieutenant by the end of the Shift to basically go through and make sure the report is completed, and to the best of their ability because they are not the end stage that everything looks to be correct, everything is coded the way it is supposed to be, the dialogue, narrative is what it is supposed to be, and from there, I believe that the Battalion Chief for the Shift, again, double-check and make sure that the report, that everything is done for the Shift and I believe after that there, we have a few personnel that at certain times of the month will then, they will go through and make sure you know all the I’s are dotted, and the T’s are crossed before they, I guess, ultimately send it to the State for the State reporting. And I believe it is supposed to be done monthly if I am not mistaken. VLS: Alright, is the coding of hazard, incident or response is that something that you believe is clear cut, how something is to be coded or are there gray areas? - 14 - CLISSOLD: I can tell you before Chief McInerny got here I believed that it was a clear cut process. Now, that being said, that doesn’t mean that some of these calls, there’s drop down menus, so you can basically every single call have an exact, you know, drop down menu, there, sometimes there’s, oh could it be this one or could it be this one. You know what I mean, you kind of pick the best one, but so getting back, before Chief McInerny got here, I believe it was a pretty clear cut process. After he got here, I know, you know, even to this day, you know, if I was to sit down and do a report from a call that I truly believed was an electrical hazard, if you will, I have to second guess myself, even ask a Lieutenant or a Battalion Chief how the Chief wants this one done because I don’t know. I am not 100% sure. So, VLS: Through the chain of command, I realize that the Chief has never talked to you, you said directly about coding CLISSOLD: Correct. VLS: So any instructions you had since the Chief came on board came through the chain of command, is that right? CLISSOLD: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Would, do you know whether the software system would show that a, that coding changed from the time you entered it? CLISSOLD: Changed as far as VLS: For instance, CLISSOLD: Sit down and do a report and then it was changed after the fact. VLS: Well, you indicated that you had been in a situation where you have the done the report so you have done the initial coding and then you have been instructed through the chain of command to change the coding, do you know if that would be something that would be captured in the software system? CLISSOLD: I don’t know, I have to be honest with you. VLS: Do you know who would know the answer to that? CLISSOLD: Oh, geez, well I would imagine starting off with the probably the Battalion Chief Nichols because he is kind of our not only our boat guy but he is also our computer guy. And he deals a lot with the reports. I would imagine that he would know, and just off the top of my head, I know that Steve Kofsky is one of our Department personnel that he is one that verifies the reports at the end of the month before he sends them off to the State. So, I imagine if anybody would know if you can capture that, you know, I know that, yeah, like so I was to sit down and do a report right now and say by the end of the day, something had to be changed in the report, it could have just been an obvious mistake or something, for me to change that report, you go back in and - 15 - sign your name back in to open report, I know that certain people, certain rank and file above myself have the rights to open up certain reports and then be able to make changes. Minor glitch changes. But, so I would imagine at some point that would have to be captured, but. VLS: Do you believe that you through the change of command have been instructed to misrepresent the nature of a fire call through coding? CLISSOLD: Yes. VLS: And can you give me any examples of when you believe through the chain of command you have been instructed to miscode. CLISSOLD: I don’t have anything specific, I can’t tell you on this date and time and this reporting number. But I can tell you basically to use my previous example would be that in the past when we would go to a call let’s say you had an overheated fan motor of certain, any type of fan motors or an air conditioning fan motor, or a bathroom fan motor, something, just to use an example. That we would code it as such, the corresponding, you know, electrical hazard overheated motor is actually in there, things of that nature, that was done in the past, and since then, since the Chief has arrived, those certain, those type of calls have then, have now been coded as say structure fires. VLS: Okay. And what is in your mind the significance of the change in coding, other than it being in your opinion a misrepresentation of the event? CLISSOLD: I guess the only thing that I can point too is that I believe the Chief is able to show certain needs that he feels are needs to council members and to the City manager that he then is able to, you know, either get a bigger Fire Station, a bigger fire boat, or more people. VLS: So you believe that the reports have been used by the Chief to create an impression of need. CLISSOLD: Correct. As well as, and I know that we did not touch on this quite yet, but it is in the same sentence as far as the damage and intensity. VLS: Okay, let’s move on to that. CLISSOLD: Oh, I’m sorry you probably VLS: (Talking over each other) We talked first about and I was kind of going through those three categories so I do want to hit every one. The other point in the letter is that relates to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with regard to damage. What factual information do you have to support that? CLISSOLD: Sorry. - 16 - VLS: Do you want to take a break. CLISSOLD: No, no, no, I just wanted. I have wife and kids and they like to make sure I am in the loop on everything. VLS: Yes. CLISSOLD: So, again getting back I guess to the damage part, damage/intensity. I would say again through the chain of command there has been multiple calls, if you will, when we truly had a structure fire, I hate to say that I actually have to, you know, emphasize truly had a structure fire that in the past. There’s a part on the report where you have to report to the best of your ability the maybe what the dollar loss was on a certain call. So, in the past, it seemed to be kind of a collaborative issue, you know, time where between the Battalion Chief, Lieutenant, even the guys on the line, where, you know, when a call is done you kind of, you know, get together, you know, okay, how much damage did we have here, and it was kind of, it was just a, it was an estimate but it was, you know, best guesttimate if you will. And I know that again through the chain of command there were calls that I was a part of, that if I was doing a report, or maybe it was a collaborative effort between say myself and Lieutenant as we were going through the events that happened and that we were reporting, and that we would get to, you know, a damage loss, and, you know, we would say, for instance there was $20,000 dollars worth of damage to this house or structure, and then without fail it seemed like each time it was, no that was a 100,000 dollars worth of damage. VLS: Okay, and who would, so you would. I interrupted you and I didn’t mean to, but we are talking about an estimated amount of damage that goes on the same type of report that we were previously talking about. CLISSOLD: Right. VLS: Where you code? CLISSOLD: Correct. VLS: And who would tell you that the amount of damage that the figure needed to be changed or increased? CLISSOLD: It was said multiple times that Chief McInerny said that there was $100,000, I am just using an example, that upon our initial loss, that we would enter, it would then be Chief McInerny saying it was a 100,000 or it was X amount, and it was always considerably more than what we had initially put on the report. VLS: And who would communicate that to you? CLISSOLD: Through the Battalion Chief. VLS: So you never heard directly Chief McInerny make that? - 17 - CLISSOLD: No. No. VLS: But the Battalion Chief would tell you that Chief McInerny said. And what about the issue of intensity. The letter refers to the Chief misrepresenting and exaggerating with respect to intensity of fires. Is that a separate point? CLISSOLD: I can’t say that anything comes on mind as far as intensity. To me the damage and intensity kind of go together. Not to say that someone else wouldn’t read that differently, but to me, you know, that’s, you know, intensity if I were to tell you that we went in and we had a fire in this room, you know, we would put it out in two minutes and there was, you know, a thousand dollars worth of damage in here, and then the report was changed and said it took us 30 minutes to put the fire out and there was 10,000.00 worth of damage. To me that kind of goes to the same damage/intensity. VLS: Anything else that you have knowledge of that supports the allegation that the Chief misrepresented and exaggerated with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity. CLISSOLD: Not at this time. VLS: Have you ever heard the Chief instruct any one not to put out fires? Or let property just burn down. CLISSOLD: Have I ever. Oh. Yes, I have been a part of a meeting where the Chief actually gives, that, those reports, correct. VLS: When was that meeting? CLISSOLD: I would have to look at my notes. I don’t have an exact date. I just know that I was a part of a meeting with, I believe it was Lieutenant Nadelman, and I believe that Lieutenant Moore was there, and myself. And he had referenced, there was something about, I believe a council member was questioning how many fires we were, you know, that we have had this normal amount of fires that have been reported by the Fire Department in a certain timeframe over the last year, and that the Chief had made a comment about something in effect, well maybe we should, you know, not put the fires out so quickly and let them burn. So, yes, I was part of a meeting that was actually he said that. VLS: Okay. Is that pretty much a quote. CLISSOLD: Without an exact quote, yes it was, yes. VLS: Okay. Did you think that the Chief was serious in making that comment? that it was sarcastic, or? Or CLISSOLD: Yeah, I would have to say that his demeanor and with the issue that we were talking about, that, yeah, I believe that he was, you know, trying to prove a point, if you will, that, you know, that almost to the fact that we need to show them that, you know, that we have a lot of fires here and basically, you know, almost the fact that you - 18 - guys are putting these things out to quickly, too fast, maybe we need to let a few of these burns to show them. VLS: Has it, has anyone to your knowledge within the Department acted upon those? CLISSOLD: Most definitely not. VLS: What was the, where did that meeting take place where the Chief made the comment? CLISSOLD: It would have been his office. VLS: And what was the reason for the meeting? CLISSOLD: I’m trying to remember. There was a series of meetings that we had with the Chief. This was recent. We had a series of different meetings with the Chief and I can’t remember which one was which or which meeting he said it in because we were, we had a few different issues that we were discussing with him, meaning that basically the executive board of the Union. So there was a couple of different issues we were talking about, I want to believe, I want to think that, we had some airport issues we were dealing with at the time. I think we were also discussing, what was the other issue, I think it might have been, a promotion for the Training, for our Training Chief that had left in June that we still hadn’t promoted somebody or I can’t remember what the other, but it was a collection of different issues. VLS: So the particular meeting where the comment was made, maybe we shouldn’t put fires out so quickly, and let them burn, that was not really an agenda item, it was something that just came up. CLISSOLD: Correct. VLS: Alright. And can you place, was that meeting sometime this year? CLISSOLD: Oh yes, it would have been probably the end of August, beginning of September. That timeframe. VLS: Alright. CLISSOLD: It was relatively recent. VLS: Alright. Have you ever heard the Chief tell, say in your presence that the Department should let people’s boats sink and not assist them in saving vessels? CLISSOLD: I have not heard that statement. VLS: Alright. Is there anything else that you think, that you want to bring to my attention under point 2 in the Union’s letter, which is the Chief misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity. - 19 - CLISSOLD: No, ma’am. VLS: Let’s move on to. Let’s take a break. CLISSOLD: Okay. VLS: Then we will resume with point 3, and it about 10:15 and I am going to turn off the recorder, and I would really appreciate it if you remind me CLISSOLD: To turn it back on VLS: When we return to put it back on. VLS: Alright, we are back on the record, and the interview with Chris Clissold, and it is about 10:25. And I think we left off in discussing the letter to the Union, the 3rd enumerated point which was that the Chief’s misrepresentations, exaggerations and outright mendacity have created a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire rescue personnel as a result the Chief has lost the ability to effectively lead the City’s Firefighters. Is that your opinion? CLISSOLD: It is. VLS: What are the, what’s the basis for your opinion on that point? CLISSOLD: I have a couple of points, and I was a part of a meeting in which I believe it was Lieutenant Nadelman and myself, and we were discussing with him a new ALS program that he was starting with between us and EMS, Collier County EMS. And, we had some issues with the way he was instructing it due to the fact that I don’t know how much you’ve already know about this or not, but basically, the way the agreement was drawn up, or what he wanted us to do, personnel, was to ride in with the ambulance on basically every call, medical call, and Adam and I had gone in with some concerns with that just thinking that the Department was going to be spread really thin especially come season time when we have the majority of our calls. So, in this particular meeting, we were voicing our concerns with basically the current language that he wanted us to do, and in that meeting, he had made a statement that basically for us not to worry about it because if someone were to die because all of our personnel were busy riding in the ambulance, and taking up, you know, basically not only that personnel that is in the ambulance, but personnel on the apparatus that has to then fire, or follow the ambulance into the hospital, so it is effectively taking away that for a period of time, that it would not be our fault if someone died, and that, you know, it would show the City council that we needed more resources, personnel, trucks, that sort of thing. VLS: Is that a quote or close to a quote by the Chief if someone was to die it would not be your fault it would show City council? CLISSOLD: Yes. - 20 - VLS: When was that, when did that meeting take place? Can you give it a year? I am not asking you for a specific date, if you don’t know what, but try to CLISSOLD: I think it would have been probably sometime late in 2013. I don’t have an exact month for it, but I am just trying to recollect, like when that new program was starting up and I believe it was later in the year 2013. VLS: And you and Lieutenant Nadelman were present when that comment was made? CLISSOLD: Yes, we were present in the fact that it was a kind of labor management meeting so to speak, and because he is the President of the Union, and I am the Vice President of the Union, we have had a few of these meetings over the years with him in that capacity. VLS: So you were there in your capacity as an Union representative? CLISSOLD: Yes, ma’am. VLS: Anybody else present in the meeting? CLISSOLD: Not that I recall. I believe that there were just the three of us. VLS: And did that take place in the Chief’s office? CLISSOLD: I’m trying to remember if it was his office or Battalion Chief’s office, they are kind of right next to each other, and we have had a few different meetings in both places, so I can’t recall which exactly which office it happened in, to be honest with you. VLS: Did you believe that the Chief was serious making that comment? CLISSOLD: Normally, I have a hard time saying that, but due to the nature of the meeting, both sides were pretty adamant on their positions, um, we were, Adam and I were very worried that this was going to be an issue, just because we have been around for so long, in this capacity, and we know what our call volume is in the season, we know how thin we get spread, and we really felt that this was going to be something that we needed to talk about, and hopefully change his mind on. And on the other side, he was pretty adamant on the fact that, you know, that this was needing to happen this way for a certain reason, so I mean, yeah, I felt that he, I felt at that time that he had an agenda that he was trying to promote, and it was pretty clear, and the only reason why I say that is because some of the points, counterpoints that we were making to him about, well, you know, why don’t we, why aren’t we just doing this on the most serious of calls, why are we doing it on almost every routine call, what about if, you know, the medics aren’t requesting us to ride in, you know, that kind of thing, which did not make a lot of sense to us. It’s seems being a part of a meeting that there was clearly no every call, and you know this is the way that it needs to be done, and you know, I understand that there is going to be times, you know, we will just have to call on other people, other agencies to come on our calls, if everyone is busy. And, so, when we bring up the fact that these other units will be coming from outside our City, and we are talking minutes - 21 - upon minutes before they arrive, well, look if someone dies, then it is not your fault, and it will just show council that we need more people. VLS: What happened with that ALS program that the Chief started? CLISSOLD: Well it is still in place. But, I can tell you that it’s not exactly the way that’s it was intended. I know that there was some, there was some latitude given after, again, I’ll back up just a little bit, so Lieutenant Nadelman and myself brought this to a grievance procedure with the City with Assistant City Manager Roger Reinke, and in that forum our complaints were voiced as well as far as what we believed was happening. It seems even though the grievance didn’t really go anywhere. I can’t tell you officially how it ended or basically it didn’t go anywhere. After his level, I believe, Assistant City Manager. I know that soon after that it seems that there was certain latitude given to the Battalion Chiefs to be able to make the call, if you will, if certain situations warranted a person to ride in on every call or you know could they pull the unit off, you know, that call type thing. So, I know that basically it was left up to the operational divisions on any particular Shifts to kind of make-up how they were going to interpret these VLS: So more discretion has been given then was under the plan. CLISSOLD: Correct. And it seemed like that happens after a series of concerns and events transpired. VLS: During the grievance process, was it brought to management’s attention that the Chief had made this particular comment? CLISSOLD: I was in the meeting, I should probably remember this. I don’t remember if the exact verbiage was used. I do know that the intent was clearly stated in that meeting, that in our opinion that it was his intent to spread the City so thin that there would be certain calls that would need the assistance of other Departments. VLS: If you will go back and look again at point number 3 in the Union’s letter about the Chief’s misrepresentations, exaggerations and mendacity creating a lack of trust and tell me if there is any other situation or factual support for that. CLISSOLD: I believe that the only other thing that I have is that I was also a part of a, some meetings recently, these series that I was telling you about, and that happen, or was happening, and I believe it might have been July, August, and then September where the Union was trying to come together with the Chief on the promotional opportunity of our vacated Training Chief’s position. We had many members that were interested in that opportunity of promoting and we were going on a series of a few months with the vacated position and so we were trying to meet with him, and kind of figure out where he was, you know, what he was thinking, and, and, you know, which way he was leaning, and, and if there was anything that we could do to help out with the process, and at one of the meetings, he had discussed, we had, I believe that we had 4 or 5 internal candidates that had put in there that they were interested in this particular promotion. And that he had made a statement that, that Human Resources, in fact, - 22 - Denise Perez, had an issue with one of our candidates because he didn’t have enough education in her belief to hold that position. And that he was trying to change her mind, if you will, trying to talk her into this particular candidate, and that it was just kind of an on-going process that he was working on. VLS: Okay. CLISSOLD: So, I was a part of that meeting. Soon after that meeting, when basically we had come to find out through the grapevine that the Chief had hired someone else outside the Department from Fort Lauderdale specifically from the Department he had come from. I was in the office with Lieutenant Nadelman when he had called Denise to ask her about the statements that the Chief had made regarding educational requirements, and you know, if she knew anything about, you know, what the Chief was doing as far as hiring, and, and promoting, and she, just being in the office again, I was not on the phone, I wasn’t on a conference call, but I was right here, you know, she had said that she hadn’t spoke to the Chief about the position, and that basically she knew nothing about what we were talking about. VLS: Did she discuss with you what was on the particular job description in terms of educational requirements, was that a topic? CLISSOLD: No, it was, it was mainly, no, I don’t know what you are talking about, I haven’t spoke to the Chief about this position. I haven’t spoke to him at all who he is contemplating of promoting, anything like that. VLS: I see. Okay, so it was your, that you concluded that the Chief had not been CLISSOLD: Correct. VLS: Truthful? CLISSOLD: Correct. VLS: Let’s talk about that promotional process. This was the promotional opportunity for the Battalion Chief of the Training. What’s the name of the position? CLISSOLD: It’s basically just a Training Chief, if you will. It’s a Battalion Chief level position. VLS: And it was vacated in June of 2015? CLISSOLD: I believe it was the end of June it was, his last, Chief Moyer was our previous Battalion Chief and in charge of the training. He left I want to say the end of June. VLS: Okay, now Chief Moyer was he, did he come up through the ranks or was he an outside? - 23 - CLISSOLD: He was an outside hire as well. VLS: And did the Union have issues with his hire? CLISSOLD: Not that I recall. VLS: Okay. CLISSOLD: Not that I recall. I am trying to remember because right before that we had another, we had another Training Officer that had, that did come up through the ranks, and I want to say that he left, he retired soon after the Chief came on, and maybe it was a year something to that effect. So, yeah, I don’t believe that there was any issue. I am trying to remember and nothing is coming up. VLS: Alright, what does the Union have any say in, under, I haven’t really looked at the collective bargaining agreement, on promotions at this level? CLISSOLD: Not at that level. VLS: Okay. CLISSOLD: No. VLS: Alright. So who were the internal candidates that you were aware of that had expressed an interest in the Battalion Chief Training position? CLISSOLD: From what I recall, I believe it was Lieutenant Pecar, Lieutenant Adamski, Lieutenant Zunzunegui, and DE, Driver/Engineer Kofsky. VLS: How did the Chief know of their interest? Was there a job posting? CLISSOLD: No there was no job posting. I believe what he did was put out an e-mail just stating that anyone that was interested in the job to send him a letter of interest. VLS: Okay. CLISSOLD: That was the way that it was stated. VLS: Did you have a problem with that process? I mean as a process itself. CLISSOLD: I would have preferred that there would have been a job opening, you know, with clear cut standards and, you know, requirements, things of that nature that have happened in the past, as opposed to just a letter of interest, kind of really know conclusion to it. It just seemed like it was an open ended item. VLS: Okay. Had this process, the idea of sending out an e-mail and asking anyone who was interested to send a letter of interest had that process been followed at all in the past? - 24 - CLISSOLD: Not to my knowledge. VLS: And did you and Lieutenant Nadelman or anyone else to your knowledge question or challenged the Chief on the process he was using? CLISSOLD: I don’t think directly. I am trying to remember the events. I remember again having some conversations with him about, hey Chief, you know, at that time, had a lot of things going on, we had a consultant group that the City had hired was doing extensive research on the Fire Department. VLS: Is that PSSI? CLISSOLD: Correct. VLS: Sorry to interrupt. CLISSOLD: No. VLS: Please continue. CLISSOLD: Yes. So, I know that in conjunction with that, and everyone concerned with maybe how that was, that report was going to come out, and when it was going to be presented to the council. As well as, you know, ourselves wondering, you know, when we were going to get a, fill this position. I, I think, not necessarily, the letter of interest that we have it. It was more so of hey Chief can we get on this. We’ve got some guys waiting, we really need to fill this position. We have a lot of training coming up and there’s nobody really manning that ship so to speak because everyone else our other Battalion Chiefs are extremely busy with their tasks, and this is really a full-time position that needs to be kind of filled, and, you know, we’ve got some members that are inquiring about, you know, what was going to be happening. So it was more of that, you know, I think because it was a letter of interest, and because of some of the statements that were being made by him. Look I’m really trying to, you know, talk to HR and get him to see that this candidate, you know, really is good, and does not need all of this education as much as they think. Kind of felt like was were getting strung along a little bit. To think that maybe there was decision that was coming sooner rather than later. So I don’t think it gave us the opportunity to really have an issue with the letter of interest. VLS: Did the Union have a candidate among those 4 internally that they were urging the Chief to consider? CLISSOLD: I wouldn’t say so. I mean I think that, you know, any of the 4 were in our eyes would be fine with, or really anyone. It just happened to be that because that was all that we knew, because he did not post the job opening for external candidates, anything like that. Kind of led us to belief that that the road he was going down. VLS: By the road going down, you mean that it would be an internal promotion? - 25 - CLISSOLD: Correct. VLS: Did he ever actually represent to you that indeed he was only going to consider internal candidates? CLISSOLD: No. VLS: And are you familiar with the background of all 4 of the internal candidates? CLISSOLD: Somewhat. VLS: Okay. CLISSOLD: Yeah. VLS: And it was the Union’s belief that any of those 4 would be well qualified for the position? CLISSOLD: Yes. VLS: So, what happened? CLISSOLD: Well like I said we kind of through the grapevine found out that the Chief had plans even on some of our earlier meetings we were having with him that he had already made a decision, and had offered this job to someone from Fort Lauderdale. VLS: And that’s Phil Pennington? CLISSOLD: That’s correct. VLS: And Phil Pennington has accepted the offer and started? CLISSOLD: Correct. VLS: Do you have a position or does the Union have a position of whether Phil Pennington is qualified for the position of Battalion Chief Training? CLISSOLD: We believe that he is not qualified. VLS: And why is that? CLISSOLD: I guess it would probably be and, again some of this is going to be, um, I don’t have direct knowledge but, you know, that some of the requirements for the job. Sorry about this I hope it doesn’t show up on the recording (radio calls). Aren’t necessarily what they, you know, what they need to be. It’s been my understanding that he doesn’t have certain Certificates and things like that that the job kind of requires. VLS: Okay, and what would those be? Are you able to identify what those Certificates are that you believe that would be necessary for the job? - 26 - CLISSOLD: I don’t. VLS: Okay. CLISSOLD: To be honest with you. VLS: Alright. And he started when? CLISSOLD: Oh, geez, when was that position taken. I, if I had to guess maybe first or second week of September or something like that. VLS: And have there been issues that you or other members of the Union or just employees of the Fire Department in general have had with Battalion Chief Pennington? CLISSOLD: I have not personally, but I’ve, to be honest with you, I’ve had extremely limited, you know, time with him. I think he has taught us one class so far since he has been here and it was like an hour long, other than that I really haven’t seen him or had correspondence with him. VLS: Do you know when the position was offered to Battalion Chief Pennington? CLISSOLD: I don’t have an exact date and times. And my recollection recounting basically the story and then the events it was, it was I want to say that it was sometime in August when he would have been offered the job just due to the timeline of when apparently he had to leave his former position, put in his paperwork, and then accept the paperwork here. Again, that would have been the exact same time that we were having these meetings with the Chief about, you know. VLS: Any other examples or observations to support the allegation that the Chief made misrepresentations, exaggerations or outright mendacity that created a lack of trust between the Chief and the fire rescue personnel? CLISSOLD: Not at this time. VLS: Have you seen any of. Let me restate that, have you seen any of Phil Pennington’s qualifications, like his Curriculum Vitae or his application? CLISSOLD: Not personally. I have not. VLS: Did you look at any of the submissions that were made by the other internal applicants which you mentioned the 4 names? Do you know what they submitted? CLISSOLD: I do not. VLS: Okay. CLISSOLD: I do not. I just had, would have general knowledge of, you know, throughout the years what they have done, and things of that nature, you know, what degrees they have, what fire classes they have taken, and things like that. So. - 27 - VLS: Do you know whether they were interviewed? By the Chief? Let me finish my question, do you know whether they were interviewed by the Chief the 4 internal? CLISSOLD: I do not believe that there were any official interviews with any of them. I don’t even know if there was any unofficial interviews to be honest with you. I don’t know if any of them were actually ever talked to you about the position. VLS: And is the point that you are making with regard to the promotion is that that the Chief misrepresented or lied to you about where he was, who he was considering for the position? CLISSOLD: That is correct. VLS: You mentioned. Let’s go on. Is there anything else under the 3rd point in the Union’s letter? CLISSOLD: No. VLS: Let’s go on to the 4th point. CLISSOLD: Okay. VLS: That being that the Chief has attempted to influence or otherwise cause the Union to undermine some City objectives. What, first of all do you personally agree with that? CLISSOLD: I do. VLS: And tell me what has caused you to reach that opinion? allegation? Or make that CLISSOLD: I was a part of a meeting. I’ll back up because I should probably try to go in order here. There was I believe some type of meeting or correspondence between Lieutenant Nadelman and Chief McInerny, and again I don’t really have the date and time, I think it was sometime in 2014. That the Chief had wanted the Union to make a public request, a public information request with I think it was the, it had something to do with at the time I am trying to remember how all this went down. With Ted Soliday, he’s the director for the airport. The Chief had asked Lieutenant Nadelman if the Union would do a public information request and with the hopes of I guess finding some sort of Sunshine law violations between himself and any of our City council members. I don’t have a lot of information on that. The only reason that I say this is because as soon as Lieutenant Nadelman came back, him and I discussed it as part of the Union executive board. He had told me what had taken place, had told me what the Chief wanted, and we both discussed the pros and cons about that because he was requesting that the Union do that. We both ultimately came up with the, you know, the conclusion that it wasn’t a good idea and that we did not want to get involved with that. VLS: So the Union did not do that? Did not make a public records request? - 28 - CLISSOLD: Correct. So, I say to that because then the second part of that is I was also in another meeting. I was present in a meeting that in September of this year 2015, the Chief had requested, he had basically requested, I don’t know if you know the back story, but basically that there had been a request by another Fire Department, the North Naples Fire Department, to do a request on City council, public information request, public, in which they received a series of these e-mails between City council and whatnot, I was in a meeting with Chief McInerny, Lieutenant Nadelman, and Lieutenant Moore, who is also our Secretary for the Union, where he had instructed basically for us to get with their Union to go through these e-mails that they received from this request because he was sure that we would find Sunshine State violations between our council members on certain topics that this e-mails had to deal with. VLS: Okay, and he, you said he instructed the Union to do that. Did the Union in fact do that? CLISSOLD: No. VLS: Okay. Did you feel that you were required to do that, or that there would be some type of consequences or retaliation if you did not follow through with the Chief’s requests to go through those e-mails? CLISSOLD: Not necessarily. I know that he was, I knew that he was serious what he as asking us to do, but I did not necessarily feel that there would be any repercussions if we didn’t, just and I would say probably due to the fact because of the previous year when he had made the same requests, um, and we didn’t I can’t say that I really heard anything about it after the fact. So. VLS: Did you, and when I say you I am referring to the Union through its executive board, indicate to the Chief that you were not planning on following through with that or did you just not do it? CLISSOLD: No, we did not give him an answer either way. We just didn’t (illegible). VLS: And explain for me how those issues about public records requests were an attempt by the Chief to influence or cause the Union to undermine City objectives? CLISSOLD: Well, I can tell you that being that I know nothing about Sunshine State violations or what council people, public officials can and cannot do, it was, it was kind of eye opening to me, just the fact that he, it felt to me that because of some of the issues that are going on in the City, and because of his relationship or perceived relationship, I have with, what he has with some of the council members, I honestly believe that what he was asking the City was try to find dirt if you will on City council members. I guess with the end game being that, you know, he could, the Chief, his goals on, you know, to that end, basically. I don’t know how else, or why else you would, you know, request that kind of information especially from, you know, your employer, but, you know, that is what he was asking us to do. - 29 - VLS: Do you know whether the Chief could have initiated the public records request himself? CLISSOLD: I do not know that. VLS: Okay. CLISSOLD: No. I’m sure that it would not look good if an employee did that. But, I, you know, if by the law he can do or can’t do I don’t know. VLS: And do you know what happened, whether anything came out of the public records request that was made by the North Naples Fire Department? CLISSOLD: I do not know. I, we have very limited interaction with other Unions. Most of the time, it is just pleasantries or trying to, you know, possibly, you know, schedule charity softball games, things of that nature, but as far as organizing and doing things like that, you know, we don’t have a whole lot of interaction with other locals when it comes to that. But, to this day, I don’t know if they received them, if they have them, if they’ve done anything with them. I don’t know. VLS: But anything else that you can bring to my attention that supports the allegations in the letter that the Chief has attempted to influence and otherwise cause the Union to undermine some City objectives? CLISSOLD: No, I think that is it. VLS: Alright. You brought up earlier the organization that was brought in to do a report on the Naples Fire Department and I think you did identify that was PSSI. Did you have any direct interaction with any of the team members from PSSI that came to gather information to do that report? CLISSOLD: Very limited. They did come in, I can recall, during our Shift and we basically had a little roundtable, you know, I think all of the members were at the table and they just asked a series of, you know, what do you like about the Department, what would you like to see, you know, how is your equipment. Just broad nature kind of questions. VLS: Who was in? You said that was during your Shift. CLISSOLD: Correct. VLS: Did that include the Battalion Chief? CLISSOLD: No, I am trying to remember everybody that was present. I could not say specifically just because our manning changes throughout the day and I could not say if somebody was off or on. I know who I normally work with, but I can’t remember. I just remember there was probably 6 or 7 of us sitting around the table and they were just asking us these general type questions. Not a lot of specifics. Just it was just a lot of - 30 - how do you like the Department? You know, what would you like to see, um, maybe more so equipment personnel type issues, you know. VLS: And did you feel comfortable responding to their questions? Were you hesitant to be candid with them? CLISSOLD: I felt that it was, it wasn’t necessarily like a closed door one-on-one type of anonymous. It was more of just hey how are you guys doing, you know, you know, I see you guys, you know, run these type of calls, and you have this type of equipment, what would you guys like to see, you know, if you could have anything, you know, what’s your top, couple wish items that kind of thing. It wasn’t necessarily like a, how do you really feel that, that type of meeting. Tell me everything that is wrong with the Department so I can, but it wasn’t at least at the meeting that I was present to, but it was a, a fairly just a kind of a loose casual conversation. So. VLS: During your participation in that roundtable discussion, did you or any other Firefighter personnel that was present discuss any of the issues that we’ve discussed today? CLISSOLD: I can’t recall specifically if we discussed any of the specifics of what we talked about. I know that there were things talked about as far as promotional opportunities, the need for, you know, a fire boat, the need for possibly a better way of our training as it relates to say EMS. I am trying to remember. So I guess maybe indirectly some of these things were talked about but not in a specific detail like we have on the you know mentioned on the paper. VLS: As to for instance as to the fire boat, did anyone raise, did anyone present in your meeting raise the issue that it is, you discussed today that you felt that the Chief has had misrepresented or exaggerated the need to the level of fire boat he was requesting. CLISSOLD: I am sure there was something said along the lines of we needed a fire boat, a fire rescue boat for a long time, and at this time when they were doing the report, I am pretty sure that the boat had already been ordered, the new one that was coming on-line, and that so, so it was a good thing that everyone knew we were getting a fire boat. It wasn’t what the Chief had originally wanted, pushed for, but I’m sure that there was something talked about along the lines of we have needed one for a long time. Those kind of statements were probably made. So. VLS: Do you know whether in that roundtable discussion there was any direct criticism of the Chief in responding to PSSI’s question? CLISSOLD: I can’t recall. I would say that I don’t necessarily believe that was the forum, maybe that people felt like it was, you know, to air the dirty laundry, so to speak. I think it was more of like it kind of felt more of a, you know, again, it just, it seemed like more like a casual conversation, you know, what do you guys like about the Department? Where would you guys like to see where you guys are going in 5 years, 10 years, you know, what isn’t working? But it was more of what isn’t working with like - 31 - say our partnership with the EMS Department, things like that. How would you guys like to see a difference? So, I would say that it was kind of tailored around that more. VLS: Do you know who it was from PSSI who came to that roundtable discussion (illegible)? CLISSOLD: I don’t have their names. I could probably get back to you with the names on that. I can picture them, but I don’t have the names. VLS: Okay, did, have you read the PSSI report? CLISSOLD: I have not. I have browsed through it, looked at some of the recommendations that they ultimately came up with, but I have not read the whole report. I think it is pretty extensive. VLS: Yes. Did you have any disagreements with the recommendations that were made? The ones that you did review. CLISSOLD: I kind of feel like I should know this a little bit more, but I don’t. As far as, I like, I kind of feel like I should have gone through it a little bit more. To know what this company recommended and didn’t recommend to be honest with you, but I don’t have that much to where I can speak to, you know what I mean. VLS: Did you have an impression after what you did read that somehow PSSI had not been given full and adequate information to prepare the report? CLISSOLD: I would have to say yes just in the fact that I remember one of the meetings that we had with Chief McInerny and it must have been right after the report came out that he was having to go through, or him and his staff, Battalion Chiefs were having to go through and make a series of corrections, and I know that he had kind of like slid over a few of them to us across the table I believe it was myself and Lieutenant Nadelman, and I believe that Lieutenant Moore might have been a little bit but maybe not, but I just know for sure that it was me and Nadelman, and some of them were just typographical errors. You know just, some of them seemed pretty minor to me things that I guess they just wanted it to be actual, and but, again, I did not go through all of them to really see what they had recommended and what was changed or what was being requested to change. VLS: Do you know whether PSSI addressed the labor management relations in their report or in their investigation leading up to the report? CLISSOLD: I don’t know personally because I did not read it, but I did over, you know, I think Lieutenant Nadelman had said something to the effect that there was a line or a sentence in there that said something about the labor management, you know, relationship, but I have not read it. I don’t know for sure what it says. VLS: Do you know whether PSSI made any attempt to get the Union’s perspective on anything? In other words, whether - 32 - CLISSOLD: I was not a part of it. I know that Lieutenant Nadelman had quite a few other interactions with them. VLS: Okay. CLISSOLD: Now, whether or not they spoke to him directly about that or if it was just because he was an Lieutenant level that they were asking him more specific questions about the organization, but I can’t say that, I don’t even know if him and I talked about that after they were done. It was one of those things that just was. VLS: Understanding that that my instructions were to conduct an inquiry and investigate the basis for the allegations raised in the October 21, 2015 letter. Is there anything that we have not talked about that you think should be brought to my attention. From your standpoint, I understand you are not privy to everything directly. CLISSOLD: I can’t think of anything else right now. VLS: Or any particular documents that you would understanding what my mission is, any particular documents that you would direct me to? CLISSOLD: I can’t think of anything right now. VLS: Well if you do think of anything, I have given you my card, and feel free to e-mail me, I suppose in keeping with the format or protocol of how we are handling this in terms of any phone calls, or any further comments that you want to make directly, we would probably want to set that up formally and record it as we have done this. But, I welcome that opportunity if there is something else that you want to tell me. We could schedule a time. Or just do it over the phone. CLISSOLD: Okay. VLS: But with a recording. However, if there is something that you want to e-mail me I am happy to receive that. CLISSOLD: Okay. Thank you. VLS: With that we are going to end this and it is about 11:15. #2156741 VLS/smp - 33 - RECORDED INTERVIEW OF DENISE PEREZ ON 12/15/15 VLS: Today is December 15, 2015. My name is Vicki Sproat, I’m an attorney with the law firm of Henderson Franklin in Fort Myers. I have been retained by the City of Naples to conduct an inquiry or investigation into allegations of misconduct on the part of Fire Chief Steve McInerny as alleged in a letter written by the Union to the City Manager dated October 21, 2015. Today, I’m in a conference room in the Human Resource Department at the City of Napes and I have asked Denise Perez to participate in an interview. Ms. Perez do you understand that I am going to record this interview? PEREZ: Yes. VLS: Ok, and before getting started with the interview I’d like to make several statements and I’m sure you’re well aware of. First that City policy requires employees be forth right, truthful and cooperative in providing information in connection with an inquiry or investigation. Do you understand that? PEREZ: Yes. VLS: And City policy also provides that retaliation against an employee for either making a complaint of participating in an interview inquiry or investigation that retaliation is prohibited. Do you understand that? PEREZ: Yes. VLS: And do you know what you need to do if you feel you have been retaliated against? PEREZ: Yes. VLS: Ok. With those preliminary matters in mind, let’s move forward. please state your full name? PEREZ: Denise Perez. VLS: And what is your current position with the City of Naples? PEREZ: Human Resources Director. VLS: And how long have you served as the Human Resources Director? PEREZ: As Director…since 2002. So 13 years. VLS: Alright, and to whom do you report? PEREZ: The City Manager, Bill Moss. -1- Could you VLS: Ok. Could you briefly describe what your duties are as Human Resource Director and then we are going to focus in on what role you play with respect recruiting and hiring decisions. PEREZ: In my role as Human Resources Director I am responsible – oversee the management of all the Human Resources functions which include recruitment, labor relations, employee relations, employee benefits and compensation, risk management, property liability, insurance, workers’ comp., training and development. VLS: Ok, and what role do you play with respect with recruiting and hiring decisions for employees of the Naples Fire and Rescue Department? And, if there is any difference in the role you play with respect to (illegible) employees versus management employees if you could tell me that. PEREZ: Ok. I mostly oversee the approvals of posting the position, when a selection is made, reviewing that application and you know insuring that the individual selected meets the qualifications for the position and once a selection is made and I’ve approved it, the City Manager approves all recommendations for hire. Um, and then from there, I work with my staff to coordinate background checks and set-up for the hiring process. VLS: Ok. Are there job descriptions that the City has for different positions within the Naples Fire and Rescue Department? PEREZ: Yes. VLS: Ok and I’ve brought with me some documents that have been provided by your office and I’m going to show you what we’re going to mark as Exhibit 1 to your interview. Is that the job description for the Fire Battalion Chief that is currently in effect? PEREZ: Yes, it is. VLS: Ok and that has been in effect in that form for how long? PEREZ: Since 2012. VLS: Ok is that job description applicable to all Fire Battalion Chiefs including the Fire Battalion Chief of Training? PEREZ: Yes. VLS: There’s no separate job description for Battalion Chief Training? PEREZ: Not, not in Human Resources. VLS: Ok, do you know if there is a separate job description within the Naples Fire and Rescue Department? PEREZ: I do not, no. -2- VLS: Ok. What I want to go over with you today is some more information concerning the posting of the position for the Battalion Chief Training, and the hire of Battalion Chief Pennington for that position- which I believe occurred this year, in 2015? PEREZ: Correct. VLS: Ok. And I’ve brought some documents with me that hopefully will allow you to answer the questions. I’m going to hand you what we’re going to mark as number 2 Exhibit to your interview. What is the process that the City goes through in order to open a position? PEREZ: We first have to have a letter of resignation or some indication that the employee – current person in the position is resigning or retiring- which in this case umBill Moyer was the former Training Battalion Chief and submitted his application for retirement. Once that occurs then we receive a Personnel Requisition which is this document that you’ve provided me. VLS: Number 2? PEREZ: Yes. VLS: Ok. PEREZ: And it just provides the information about the position, who it reports to, where it’s located- I typically approve the Requisitions, including at the City Manager’s level. In this particular case, I did have the City Manager approve which I do usually with Police and Fire positions just to make sure he’s comfortable with filling that position and doesn’t want to possibly look at – you know, reducing staff or making some other changes. VLS: I see. So Number 2 is the Personnel Requisition and does that indicate the date by which the position in effect opened? PEREZ: Correct. Actually, the date that the position became available was July 1 because the Bill Moyer retired June 30- however, we didn’t receive the requisition until the 14th which is typical sometimes a department delays submitting this to us for posting for recruiting. VLS: On the Personnel Requisition it states on one line “Are the essential and marginal functions of the current class specification accurate?” and there’s a box that says “Yes”? PEREZ: Yes. VLS: Who completes that portion? PEREZ: The Department. -3- VLS: Meaning, in this case – Naples Fire and Rescue Department? PEREZ: Correct. VLS: And when that sentence refers to current class specification; is that the job description? PEREZ: Yes. VLS: Ok. Was the position for Fire Chief Training- Battalion Chief of the Training Division, was it posted? PEREZ: It was posted internally to the internal candidates but not our typical I guess you would call it- recruitment process. VLS: Ok, I’m going to hand you what we’re going to mark as Exhibit number 3 to your interview. Is that the internal posting? PEREZ: Yes. VLS: And what’s the date of that? PEREZ: July 23rd. VLS: Was that the date that it was distributed to personnel in the City of Naples? PEREZ: I believe so, this was an email to all fire rescue. VLS: Ok, and you say it isn’t the process that you always use or generally use. What about this process is different? PEREZ: In our non (illegible) positions and at this level of a position which is even an Assistant Director almost- or managerial position, it is common that we do not advertise like all of our other positions. VLS: Ok, so other positions would be advertised in what way? PEREZ: We use Neogov as our applicant tracking process. So we would post it externally to the public- um, and several of our union contracts it’s required to posted for a minimum of 5 days, sometimes of 10 days depending on the Union. But in bargaining positions, the City Manager has a discretion to fill those in any way he chooses. VLS: So this was a non-bargaining position, so there was no requirement that it be formally posted to the public. Is that was you’re saying? PEREZ: That’s correct, yes. -4- VLS: Ok, have other- to your knowledge; have other vacancies in the Naples Fire and Rescue Department been filled at this level, at a Battalion Chief level without the job being posted? PEREZ: Absolutely, a former employee. VLS: Ok. Who makes the final hiring decision for person in this position, Battalion Chief Training? PEREZ: Um, I would say it’s more of a joint decision. The Fire Chief of course would make the recommendation, I review it and approve it and then the City Manager does. VLS: Ok. PEREZ: Of course the City Manager is the ultimate authority on it but he would of course would discuss it with the Chief (illegible) if there were any concerns. VLS: Ok. Let’s go to the job description that I think was the first item…In order to become Fire Battalion Chief was the candidate supposed to meet the minimum qualifications on page 2? PEREZ: Um… yes although there was a clause in there that- I believe … let me just read through it here. Um, or any equivalent combination of education training and experience which provides the requisite knowledge, skills and abilities for the position. VLS: Ok so you’re referring to the first sentence under Minimum Qualifications says that the candidate should have an associate’s degree in Fire Science or related field supplemented by four (4) years of progressively responsible supervisory experience in fire safety, prevention, and suppression methods, equipment, and supplies; or – I guess the emphasis is on “or any equivalent combination of education, training and experience”? PEREZ: That’s correct. VLS: Ok, so an associate’s degree would not necessarily be required if the equivalent combination of education, training and experience was present? PEREZ: Correct. VLS: Ok. There’s also an indication under Minimum Qualifications that the candidate must possess and maintain a valid Florida Driver’s License- correct? PEREZ: Yes. VLS: And also there’s a clause that states that the candidate must possess and maintain certain specified certifications from the State of Florida or other issuing body. Is that correct? -5- PEREZ: Yes. VLS: Ok and is that something that you check to determine that all of those certifications are – that the candidate has those and they are current? PEREZ: Yes. Um, usually working with the Department to make sure that they have knowledge of it or the information needed. Um… or checking with the applicant to make sure they provide us with their certifications. VLS: Ok and if a candidate does not have one of the listed certifications, is there a process by which they can be considered or exempted from that requirement? PEREZ: Absolutely, um there are times when – a lot of times may depend on what the department is looking for specifically in that position and I would say it goes back to it’s an equivalent combination of education training and experience where they may not possess a specific certification- they may be given a time frame in which to obtain it, which is typical is what we do with (illegible) licenses positions. Um... Or you know, it may just not be needed depending on what the department is looking for in that position at the time. VLS: Would you make that determination or would you rely primarily on the department in determining whether the departmental hiring authority believed that a certification listed as a minimum qualification was either not necessary or could be obtained after hire? PEREZ: I would totally rely on the department to do that. VLS: Ok, alright. Going back to the document that was sent out to – yes, the email that was sent out to all Fire and Rescue personnel, you said that is dated July 23, 2015? PEREZ: Correct. VLS: And does that indicate the date by which any internal applicants should respond? PEREZ: Yes, it says by Friday, August 7th, 2015. VLS: Ok, do you know whether there were any internal candidates in the department that responded to the bulletin indicating an interest in the Battalion Chief position and submitting accompanying information? PEREZ: I think there were four. VLS: Ok, and do you recall who those four were? PEREZ: Um, I’ll try and remember. Steven Kofsky, Daniel Zunzunegui, Jerry Pecar, umm... -6- VLS: Was there also a Corey Adamski? PEREZ: Oh yes, Corey Adamski. VLS: Ok and do you know if they all responded by the August 7, 2015 date? PEREZ: I believe so, yes. VLS: Ok. Did those submissions go to you? PEREZ: No. They went to the Chief. VLS: Ok, did you ever see those submissions? PEREZ: I may have… I don’t recall. I don’t remember if I saw them before or after the process. VLS: Ok, were the submissions by the core internal candidates Zunzunegui, Pecar, Adamski and Kofsky- were those submissions placed within their personnel file? PEREZ: I’m not sure- they should be. Typically they are. But I have not checked their files to make sure they are there. VLS: Ok, so you would expect- regular protocol would call for the department if you weren’t getting those to send them to the Human Resource Department at some time so they could be included? PEREZ: Correct. VLS: And is that important for the City to know that someone has expressed an interest or applied for a job? PEREZ: Yes- just so… VLS: As a matter of record. PEREZ: Right. VLS: Ok. I’m going to hand you what I’ve marked as Exhibit 4 for your interview which is a document that was in Phil Pennington’s personnel file that you provided to me. Does Exhibit number 4 allow you to answer when the Chief first indicated that Phil Pennington- that he was considering Phil Pennington for the position? PEREZ: Actually, the Chief had sent me his –Phil’s resume early July I believe – I don’t recall the time frame but it was before I sent this application for Phil to complete and the Chief sent me Phil’s resume just – I think, you know, here’s somebody who may be interested in the position and you know, I’d like you to review it. And I sent this application to him so he’d have it. -7- VLS: Was the date…what is the date when you sent the Chief the formal application? PEREZ: July 14th. VLS: Ok so that was the same day that the requisition process was undertaken? Was completed or submitted? PEREZ: It’s a date the position – yes the date the requisition was received, correct. VLS: And you mentioned that you were provided even prior to the July 14th date with a resume from Phil Pennington, is that correct? PEREZ: Correct. VLS: And I don’t know if this is something that you can identify, but I’m going to hand you Exhibit number 5. Is that what you were given by the Chief prior to July 14? PEREZ: I believe so. VLS: Ok. So on July 15 you sent to the Chief a formal application that Phil Pennington would need to complete? PEREZ: On the 14th… VLS: Yes. PEREZ: Yes. VLS: Ok. And I’m going to hand you what has been marked as Exhibit number 6 to your statement. Is that the formal application that was submitted by Phil Pennington? PEREZ: Yes. VLS: And does that indicate the date of the application? PEREZ: July 15th. VLS: Ok, as of July 15, 2015 was the Chief indicating to you that Pennington was who he was going to recommend for the position? PEREZ: No. VLS: Ok. I’m going to hand you what has been marked as number 7, can you tell me what that particular document is? PEREZ: This is applicant referral and interview form that this is what we call our cover sheet that when an applicant is selected for a position, this is the document we use for final approvals. -8- VLS: And this cover sheet that’s marked as number 7 is the one that relates to Phil Pennington? PEREZ: Correct. VLS: So who would have initiated the process of HR receiving the cover sheet? PEREZ: This document is actually initiated by Human Resources- um, one of my staff complete the document and email it to the Department. Um, Robin Dennis likely was the employee that completed it. She has it dated of August 18- so I assume that is the date she prepared it and sent it Chief McInerny. VLS: Ok, and what would generate her sending the Chief the form? Would it be some indication that that was the Chief’s recommended candidate? PEREZ: Yes, the Chief likely called either myself or Robin directly and said that he had selected somebody for the position. VLS: Ok and what is the date that Robin completed the referral information form? PEREZ: I’d say August 18th- and then the Chief signed it the same day, August 18th. VLS: Ok, so as of August 18, 2015, that was who the Chief was recommending to fill the position? PEREZ: Correct. VLS: Under the information section on the applicant referral and interview results, does that indicate that the applicant was interviewed by the Chief? PEREZ: Um… correct. VLS: Ok. There is also a recommended salary that’s filled in. Who would fill out that information? PEREZ: The Chief would have probably discussed it with me, which is typical and we look at what the –you know, what the salaries of all other employees are so it would have been in conjunction with me. VLS: Ok. Do you recall having those discussions? PEREZ: Yes I do. VLS: Ok. I’m going to show you what we will mark as Exhibit number 8. And if you can just identify what the document is from the personnel file? PEREZ: Um…actually, this – the original email was from me to the Chief and that was letting him know that I had this cover sheet available, so I provided it to him and I did that August 18- Robin prepared it and I hand delivered it to the Chief. -9- VLS: Ok. PEREZ: And he came by and picked it up. VLS: Ok. And what process follows once the Chief has made a selection? PEREZ: I approved it- which I approved it on August 21 it appears to be- it looks like the 28th but I wasn’t here on the 28th I was on FMLA so I know it wasn’t the 28th- um but I believe it was August 21st and then the City Manager approved it August 29th and from there we would begin the –provide the offer letter to the applicant, start doing his background investigation and setting him up for pre-employment at work. VLS: Do you recall having any kind of conversations with the Chief about Pennington’s qualifications and whether he had all of the certifications indicated on the job description? PEREZ: Um, the only thing I really remember discussing with him is the fact – and this was actually a conversation with Roger Reinke and Bill Moss as well, but there was a need to have medical- somebody with more medical background, and that Phil did have many years of experience in Fort Lauderdale and a strong medical background. So. VLS: But you don’t recall whether or not you got into certifications? PEREZ: He may have, I don’t recall. VLS: Ok and now I’m going to hand you what we are going to mark as Exhibit number 9. What is Exhibit number 9? PEREZ: Exhibit number 9 is the offer letter to the applicant. This was completed on August on 27th- however, it was prepared by one of my staff and signed by my Risk Manager, Laurie McCullars (Spelling?) because I was on FMLA at the time. VLS: Ok and the date that the letter went out- conditional offer letter went out to Mr. Pennington what was August 27th? PEREZ: August 27th, he signed it September 2nd. VLS: Ok. So does the City wait until an applicant signs the confidential offer to obtain a physical examination/drug screen, background investigation and reference checks etc.? PEREZ: Absolutely. VLS: Would that require to Pennington to come over to Naples to complete the work? PEREZ: Yes. And he may have come in to our office on September 2nd- I don’t recall the date of his physical or anything like that but typically, we’ll provide them a copy of - 10 - the letter in advance and then you know, if they’re not in the area, they will go the date we schedule them for pre-employment. VLS: Ok. Do you know when Phil Pennington came in for the pre-employment paperwork? PEREZ: I do not. VLS: Would it be the same date that – if a driving record was requested, would it be that same date? PEREZ: Not necessarily. VLS: Is there anything within the personnel file if you had that in front of you that would enable you to know when Phil Pennington underwent the conditionsPEREZ: The pre-employment process? VLS: Yes. PEREZ: I would have to look at—it would likely be either the date the he went for his physical or there may be some other pre-employment documents that I can refer to that would confirm that date. VLS: Ok, and maybe we will take a break. Do you happen to have that personnel file available to you? PEREZ: Yes. VLS: Ok. Would that personnel file also enable you to answer when the conditional offer of employment became a formal offer of employment? Maybe I’m not asking the right words- but as I understand Exhibit number 7; as of August 27, 2015 the City was offering the position to Philip Pennington, conditional on his meeting certain requirements which included the physical examination and drug screen background investigation, driver’s license check- that kind of thing. He accepted on September 2, 2015 and I’m just wondering at what point in time then, the conditional offer became a final offer. In other words, when were those conditions met? Such that, one could say that Pennington was hired for the job? PEREZ: I think I follow you, your question. But he- once he signed it September 2nd then that prompts us to be able to do the background, the physical and all of that. From that point we don’t do another letter but their hire date- which … September 28th would of – that would have been the date that everything was official. VLS: What I would like to do is maybe take a break. PEREZ: Ok - 11 - VLS: So that you can get the personnel file to see if it enables you to state the date or approximately when the City had completed or had the information that made the offer conditional. PEREZ: Yeah. VLS: Ok. So it is now 20 of 10:00 and we are going to take a break on the record. Ok, it is about 7 of 10:00 on December 15 and we are continuing with the interview of Denise Perez. Ms. Perez we took a break, and during that break were you able to pull the medical file of Phil Pennington as well as his personnel file? PEREZ: Yes. VLS: And are you by looking at those documents, to determine when it was that Mr. Pennington completed the paperwork required by the conditional offer of employment? PEREZ: He completed the paperwork on September 2nd. VLS: And are you able to determine from looking at that file, when everything was back to the City that confirmed that the conditions in the conditional offer of employment had been satisfied? PEREZ: It appears that date was September 8th. VLS: And what was the last piece that City would be waiting on to know that the conditions in the conditional offer of employment had been met? PEREZ: Usually by the medical exam and drug screen take the longest and that’s dated it that we received it September 8th. So. VLS: Now would your office, the Human Resource Department typically notify the Chief when the last piece of information related to the conditional offer had been met? PEREZ: Yes we would contact the Department, in this case it would have been the Chief. The applicant as well to let them know that we’ve received- and you know, we have everything and they are good to go. VLS: Ok and do you make any notation of that in any file? Of the date that you would of contacted the Chief and the applicant? PEREZ: No. VLS: So it’s not necessarily done by email? PEREZ: No. - 12 - VLS: Would it be the City’s, the Human Resource Department’s customary practice in procedure to notify the Chief and the applicant on the same day that you receive the information? PEREZ: Yes VLS: So if the policy and procedure- regular policy and procedure was followed, but the Chief and the applicant, Phil Pennington would have been informed on September 8 that the conditions had been met? PEREZ: Yes. VLS: Ok. At any time, did the Chief ever discuss with you the internal candidates? The four individuals we mentioned and whether a four year degree was required for the position? PEREZ: We talked about the candidates that applied, but I do not recall anything about a degree or educational requirements. VLS: Would you have told the Chief that an applicant needed to have a four year degree to be eligible- to be a candidate for the Battalion Chief Training Position? PEREZ: No. Because that job description does have that clause in there about a combination of education, training and experience. VLS: Ok, were you in the office on September… were you out on leave during the time period that Phil Pennington completed the paperwork September 2? PEREZ: Yes, I was out of the office on FMLA. VLS: Ok, and when did you return to the office from FMLA? PEREZ: On Wednesday, September 9th. VLS: Ok, so you were not physically present in the office when the notification came back that Phil Pennington had passes the physical? And drug screen? PEREZ: Correct. VLS: Alright, but I presume there is other staff that is handling matters in your absence? PEREZ: Yes. VLS: Ok when you did return from FMLA leave, did you – were you contacted by any personnel in the Naples Fire and Rescue Department asking you about the position of training? PEREZ: Yes. - 13 - VLS: And who was it that contacted you? PEREZ: Adam Nadelman came in to the office to see me- to speak to me. VLS: Do you know what date Adam Nadelman came into the office? PEREZ: I don’t not recall the exact date, I know it was the week I returned, so from FMLA- so it was either the 9, 10th or 11th of September. VLS: Ok. And did he make an appointment before coming in? PEREZ: No, he just came into the office. VLS: And you met with him personally? PEREZ: Um- up front though. At our front counter. VLS: Was anybody with Adam Nadelman when he came to see you? PEREZ: There was someone else- I believe it may it may have been Chris Clissold but I’m not sure. VLS: And what transpired at that meeting? PEREZ: He had asked me if the Chief had made a selection for the position, and I said yes but I was unsure of the status because I had been out. And he said that the Chief had met with him and the other candidates that had applied, and were told that they were not eligible because they did not have a degree and that I, as the HR Director had told the Chief that he couldn’t hire somebody without having a degree. I told Adam I never said that and I never had that conversation with the Chief and Adam said this happened the week prior. I was on leave the week prior- I had never spoke to the Chief. VLS: Ok, so just to clarify, Adam told you that the meeting that Chief had with him and other candidates where he told them that you said that they were not eligible because they did not have a degree? He said that meeting had occurred the week before? PEREZ: Correct. VLS: Anything else occur during your conversation? PEREZ: He asked the date that – I believe he asked me the date that we had made the offer to Phil, which I gave him the date of August 27th, which was the date of the letter and that Phil had signed it September 2nd. VLS: Did he or whoever was with him, Chris or otherwise say anything else to you in that meeting? PEREZ: I don’t believe so, I don’t recall anything else. - 14 - VLS: Have there been any further communications with any employees in the Naples Fire and Rescue department about the posting- or the recruiting and hiring for this position? PEREZ: No. VLS: Have you ever, since the offer was extended and accepted, have you had any conversations with the Chief about the hiring? PEREZ: I may have had a causal conversation with him- just discussing some of the concerns that he had heard. Whether they were directed – you know, came from any of the applicants to him or hear say, I don’t know. But. VLS: But the Chief was indicating to you that some members of the Department had raised some concerns? PEREZ: Yes. VLS: Ok. Just to be sure I understand the process for promotion or internal candidate to Battalion Chief, does not need to comply with the collective bargaining agreement? PEREZ: That’s correct. Well I should say for this position. VLS: Well, for that particular positionPEREZ: Correct. VLS: Ok, and that has been true for some time? As long as you’ve been here? PEREZ: As long as I’ve been here or even you know, since Bill Moss, our City Manager has been here. VLS: Ok. I don’t think I have any further questions for you. And with that we will conclude your interview and it’s about 10:05 on December 15th. - 15 - RECORDED INTERVIEW OF FIRE MARSHALL ROBERT ROGERS ON 12/09/15 VLS: Today is December 9, 2015. I’ve introduced myself, I’m Vicki Sproat, I’m with the Henderson Franklin law firm in Fort Myers and I have been retained by the City of Naples to conduct an inquiry into allegations that were raised about Chief McInerny in a letter dated October 21, 2015 that was sent by the Union. I have asked you, Fire Marshall Bob Rogers to come today to participate in an interview. If at any time you’ve got a call- or need to take a break, happy to do that. We are presently just for purposes of this taping; we are in a conference room in City Hall and do you understand that I’m going to record this interview? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I do. VLS: Ok, and before getting started I just wanted to make several statements. First being that City policy requires employees to be forthright, truthful and cooperative in giving information in connection with an inquiry or investigation. Do you understand that? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I do understand that. VLS: Also City policy prohibits any retaliation against an employee for participating in good faith in an investigation or inquiry. Do you understand that? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I do understand that. VLS: If you feel that you have been retaliated against in anyway, because you have participated in this process, it is important that you notify promptly Human Resources. Do you understand that? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I understand that. VLS: Ok, with that in mind, let’s get to you. Why don’t you tell me your full name? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: It is Robert Rogers, Fire Marshall for the City of Naples Fire Rescue Department. VLS: Ok, and how long have you been with the City of Naples Fire and Rescue Department? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I have been since August 2011. VLS: Why don’t you tell me about your progression in the Fire and Rescue Department- you did not start off as Fire Marshall, correct? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I did not. VLS: What was the first position in which you were hired? -1- FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: First position was as an inspector that was responsible in doing existing construction. VLS: Ok, and were you assigned to a particular area? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well, not necessarily. The area was to just kind of go with the grid – is what they had called it. And that was street by street working with the other inspectors in the department. VLS: Who was it that made your hiring decision, if you know? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: At that time, it was Chief McInerny. VLS: What was the next position that you held? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: A position opened up next door in the building department, one of the… there’s two positions that are over there that do plans review and new construction. One of them retired and moved back to Massachusetts, that position opened up- they went through the process. At the first of it I stayed out of it because I felt that they could get somebody fairly easy, but unfortunately, like a lot of positions here in Fire and Inspectors- they were having a hard time. The job was refused by their first choice because the salary wasn’t what she liked. So, Larry Botchey, who was the Fire Marshall at the time- didn’t really have a good second choice, so at that point I approached him and I told him that I was interested at applying at this point and he said “well go ahead and fill out the application” and so I did fill it out. Prior to that I had worked with Kathy- Kathy was by herself over there for a while. VLS: Kathy’s last name is? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Soulstack (illegible). And the other plans reviewer in the building department… and I had been working with her she had been kind of showing me the ropes- to help her out, because it’s a very busy office and nearly impossible for just one person to maintain that with all the plans coming in and all the inspections that are required so, the Chief, Larry Botchey both had realized the process of hiring somebody was going to be awhile. So they asked me to work with Kathy to help her out in the interim. VLS: What was the name of the position then in building department? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That was plans examiner … Fire Inspector Plans Examiner is how it was listed. VLS: When did you take on that position? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That position was about 12… I think in early 13 that I moved over. No- he left to Bob…uh, Gavon left in I believe in late September. So I believe it was…11, 12- I think it was late 12. September of 12 that I moved over into that position. -2- VLS: Ok, was that considered a promotion? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Uh, I guess if you look at it as slightly higher in pay as a promotion, then yes. You know I did have to apply for it through the application process, so I can’t really say it was a lateral position- staying within the office so, I would say you’d have to consider it a promotion. VLS: Fire Inspector Plans Examiner falls under the Naples Fire and Rescue Department not under the Building Department which I presume is a different entity? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yeah. VLS: What was the next position you held? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: At that point, Larry made known in late 14, I think it was in September 2014, that he told the Chief that he was going to retire December 1st of 2014. So, at that point after making it known, Larry announced it to us and you know, said that the position was going to be open and you know that folks can apply for it. He was not I believe he was not, he said something to the affect that he was not going to be part of the process. A couple of us made it known that we were interested. It was myself and Dave Rob and at that point the Chief directed Larry to work with both of us. Get to know his system; as far as what is required- you know the paperwork that’s required, everything in the computer where Larry had his files and everything, and to mentor us into ok well whoever got it from amongst the people that applied inside that there would be fairly easy transition from him to the next individual. VLS: What was Dave Rob’s position at the time he applied? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Dave was a Fire Inspector Specialist, Fire Prevention Specialist. He was doing public education and we… there was only two in the office at that time, so earlier that year- in May, the third individual that was in the office left to go to – at that time, North Naples. North Naples was hiring Plans Examiners. They were offering a very good salary so she – being a single mom, grabbed it and left so, at that time there was just Dave and Holly in the office and Dave applied and I applied and then it progressed from there. VLS: Was the selection made by Chief McInerny? If you know as to who would be promoted to the position of Fire Marshall? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well… it came out later. Dave and I were talking about what would be more beneficial, as far as trying to learn the job while Larry was still here. So we were thinking about maybe instead of going day for day and everything that we would try to do a week at a time and this- well this was after Larry left. After Larry left, Dave and I had a discussion because the Chief said well “Why don’t you guys do the job until we can open it up and everything to do it a week at a time” because he wanted to have a process for Dave and I to apply and so forth. Dave after Larry left, December 1st, Dave made it known to me that he was not interested in the job and that he was going to retire at the end of the year and that it had nothing- absolutely whatsoever to -3- do with anything other he wanted to retire. He was underwater on a house, because of the economy he proved he was able to unload this house- he was free and clear of that house and he wanted to do some other things in his life. He, Dave, had already been Fire Marshall in the North Naples Fire Department at that point, and he retired from North Naples as the Fire Marshall, but because of financial hardship and everything; health insurance and what had said “being underwater” he applied to get back into the business and naturally, Larry picked him right up prior when that opening was open. So, Dave was you know, very good. Well qualified for the position that he was doing and he would have been well qualified to— VLS: But he had made the personal decision that was not going to pursue? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That is correct, and from what I understand he not only told me that one day but he did go and see the Fire Chief. Fairly soon afterwards to let him know- you know, Chief I love the opportunity you’ve given me but I’ve been there done it and not interested in taking on this position. VLS: Were there candidates outside the department that applied for the position of Fire Marshall? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I don’t believe they opened it outside the department at that point. There were some candidates that were inside the department, that were interested along with myself and I believe – VLS: And who were those if you know? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I think the two that I remember were Lt. Zunzunegui was interested and another Lieutenant Corey Adamski was interested in the position. VLS: They were from the Fire Operations side? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That is correct. VLS: Ok, and I understand the current organizational chart- you’ve got the operational side and the Fire Marshall is separate from that? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Right, on the Fire Prevention side, yes. VLS: Were you interviewed for the position? Or was there a formal interview before you were selected as the Fire Marshall? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Formal Interview … uh… VLS: I mean it sounds like it was kind of a work in process and you came about in doing aspects of the job before the decision was made. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yeah. Was there a formal interview with a board of the Battalion Chiefs and the Chief? No. There was not. There was my abilities and my -4- experience and also, I want to go back a little bit because I want to make sure that- you haven’t asked me about this, but I do want to make it clear that the Chief and I are very good friends. I’ve known him back since he was in high school. VLS: Really? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. When I was working my first Fire Department job in the State of Maine, I met the Chief as – he was a teenager and he was part of the Explorer program of that particular fire department so he was there for about two years until he graduated and then his parents moved to Florida. You know we kind of kept track of one another, we’d run into each other at difference training and stuff. But I also think it’s very important because a lot of people understand this or refuse to believe this but when I retired in 2008, which was in June of 2008 I moved to Florida, my wife was already here… and I applied to the City of Naples Police Department for a Beach Patrol position and at that time I was hired by Sargent Sheridan and a Lieutenant Gaffney that was through a long process, there was many candidates that were interested in that position, I knew absolutely nobody here- the Chief was not here, and so I received the position and worked for the police department- I was on the beach patrol. It wasn’t until the following year in 2009 that the Chief retired. The Chief had applied to several positions around the country and Naples being one of them and he did get the job in Naples and he did as you know move here. There are people say that oh well I got the job … well I was already here ok. I was established here long before the Chief did andbefore the Chief was hired and there was some issues in Fire Prevention with turmoil within the office and one of the girls had – and again, HR could tell you the details, I don’t know the finer details but there appears that one of the girls made charges against Larry Botchey, the Fire Marshall of a sexual nature you know, from which I understand totally, totally innocent but it got blown out- blown up so there was some turmoil and the Chief did make it known to me- that you know if a position opened up would you be interested? And from moving over from Beach Patrol into Fire Prevention? And I said yes. And the reason why I said that is because at that time I had already had 31 years of fire service behind me in the State of Maine. VLS: Ok and I am going to want to ask you about your prior fire service, so we will go back and get into education and that- but that is helpful. So by August 2011, that position became available as an Inspector? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That is correct. VLS: And you made the move from the City of Naples Police Department to Naples Fire and Rescue? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That is correct. VLS: When did you receive the promotion to Fire Marshall? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That took affect approximately around December 15 of 2014. -5- VLS: Ok, and you’ve served continuously in that role since then? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That is correct. VLS: Let me ask you about your educational back ground and professional experience before you retired and came to Florida. Take it from there. Your education and what your experience, your certifications. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Ok let’s see…going back to- I was a navy brat so we moved around quite a bit. My father was in the navy on (illegible) I was actually born in Key West and my – we moved around quite a bit, ended up in Connecticut. There’s a big sub base in Brocken (illegible), Connecticut. So most of my school years were in Connecticut... I met my wife in high school and we got married we moved to Maine, she was originally from Maine- my parents were originally from Maine, had relative in Maine…she went to school for nursing and graduated went to Maine Medical Center, I did some course work at – prior to moving at the University of Connecticut and until we got married and moved to Maine, while she was going to school I worked. We got involved in the Fire Department up there as a volunteer- liked what I was doing, got a job in the City of Westbrook as a dispatcher which is where I met the Fire Chief. I worked there for four years and when the opportunity came up for me to move South- to apply, seek a job in the City of South Portland, Maine- I applied through a competitive process, got my position there so again, I worked 27 years there – 4 in Westbrook, 27 in South Portland. During that time I did more course work at Southern Maine Vocational and Technical Institute taking some fire related courses, I became involved in paramedic- this was back in the 80’s, early 80’s. Joined the Sub (illegible) in 81 and shortly after that paramedic medicine was becoming popular across the country and I went to school to become a paramedic while working for the City of South Portland Fire Department and became one of the first paramedics in the department. Did that for a number of years—1, 2… got promoted to Lieutenant and again, taking some different courses through the years. I do not have an associate’s degree, I do not have a bachelor’s degree. But I do have … I guess you could say, broad experience of working in the City of South Portland as the largest shopping center, the main mall in the city and the city has the largest rail yard in the city, it has 6 oil terminals that we have ships coming in on a daily basis providing petroleum products to all of upper New England, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine. I have all sorts of time doing inspections as far as going on these vessels to do these inspections that was something that was done on a daily basis. VLS: Is there some type of certification for inspection? Or was there at the time? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: No, at that time this – and that’s a good point because the State of Florida and the State of Maine are very different. The State of Florida is more structured, and we started learning about this when my wife was trying to transfer from a nurse from Maine to Florida. It’s not simply writing a check, which was part of it but you know the State of Florida has certain requirements so even though she was a nurse up there for 28 years, Florida kind of looked at that and said “yeah ok, but you’ve -6- got to do this”. And I’ve since found out that a lot of trades, whether it be plumbers or electricians- it’s not a simple… VLS: Right, right I understand. Same with law [laughs]. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That’s what I figured because they touch upon everything, so to answer your question, you know there is a formal system down here for becoming a fire inspector and that was not the case at all in the State of Maine. VLS: But you were doing that job? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: But yeah, we were doing that job. We were doing block inspections. Block inspections are where you go out and you park the truck and you walk the block- you know, you go from business to business, just like I was saying earlier, we do the grid- the grid is going block to block, well in fire service we all block inspections. Where you would go out and park the truck and with a radio you would go around and with your list of your inspections you would do the basics of checking for emergency lighting and exist signs and all the stuff that we were capable of doing and if there was bigger issue than Lieutenant or Deputy Chief would research it or give us the ability – time and effort to research it out. But, it’s interesting – we follow the same codes the NFPA codes cover the hole but different states are very much different from one to the next on- and of course down here you have to be certified fire inspector to do it. VLS: So when you retired from Southport, what was your position? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: It was Lieutenant. Yeah. VLS: And were the types of duties you were doing were both paramedics and inspection? And firefighting? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Oh yeah, yeah. I was a firefighter Lieutenant on a heavy rescue. VLS: When you were retired were you doing inspections at that time? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Oh yeah. The inspections was from the day I started and until the day I left. VLS: Ok, so it wasn’t- the department wasn’t organized the way the City is where you either in the Prevention/Inspection side or your in operations? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That is very true. Yeah, it is- again, the structures of the fire departments up there were everybody had an operations but in my department, one of the deputy chiefs was doing plan review and was doing inspections and as far as what is required in the plan review process, as far as the actual inspections-of going out to the businesses, it was done by the companies. -7- VLS: So when you moved to Florida, and you said that you started with the Police Department when you moved over to the Fire and Rescue Department, did you obtain any certification in Florida? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Oh yeah, I mean I had to receive the certification through the Fire Inspector? VLS: Ok, and when did you get that? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That was in 2011 that I received all of those and... VLS: And what are those called? State Certified Fire Inspector and different numbers after that like 1 and 2 – FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well there is a code… well you have to take 5 courses and those 5 courses give you 200 hours. Each course is 40 hours so uhVLS: That’s in order to get the Certified Fire Inspector in Florida? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Correct, you – after you complete that you apply to the Bureau, the Standards Bureau and they give you the authorization that you’ve successfully completed and then you take a state test which is administrated by Pearson Vue. VLS: Ok, and what other certifications did you obtain after coming to Florida? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Ok, well one thing I also had to work on was also Fire Investigator. They have that certification and that is part of Fire prevention down here so through the years I was a fire instructor, I would work on getting those courses out of the way and I finished up my last one after I became Fire Marshall to get that certification so I have that also now/ VLS: And when did you get the actual certification? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Uh, I believe April… I think it was May of this year. May or June. VLS: But that was something that you had started prior to becoming Fire Marshall? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. VLS: Have you achieved any other certifications from the State of Florida? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: At this point, no. I am working on my Fire Investigator 2 which is a separate certification so I am very anxious to get that. VLS: When do you expect to get that? -8- FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well, we are in December- next year I plan on completing that. I have two more courses to take which would get me at that level. VLS: Where do you go for the course? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well naturally, I would love to take them locally. VLS: Sure. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: But locally, usually- well there is some people that have taught it in the past where they’ll do it- like a 2 or 3 week period and then if another way to take it would be take it like over 3 or 4 months uh, but if you go to Ocala you get it all out of the way in one week- you just go every single day, you know- 8 hours a day and you can do it and get it out of the way so for the most part that’s – because of my time constraints I try and take a week off, go up there and get it out of the way because its quicker. VLS: Ok, so you’ve been going to courses in Ocala, and does the City of Naples provide some reimbursement for attending courses such as that? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well, yes. They allow me to go on administrative leave because it directly job related and they will pay for the course and they have- I have a choice; I can either stay outside the college or I prefer stay on campus in their housing, so works better for me. VLS: I’m going to ask you a little bit about what you do as Fire Marshall, but perhaps to simplify things, I’m going to hand you what I’ve been given by Human Resources as a job description for Fire Marshall. Have you seen this before? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I saw this awhile back, this Archer Company did a reclassification in 2012- looks about right, and they came out with classifications and I believe this is what I’m looking at and also the pay range of all sorts of different jobs in the City. VLS: We will go off the record for a minute, I just want you to look at that and ask you if you think that is a valid description of what your duties and responsibilities as Fire Marshall and that will eliminate the need for us to you know go through a full description, if you believe that’s accurate- if you want to emphasis any part of that, but I’m interested in knowing what you do day- to day. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Sure. VLS: Ok, we are going off the record for a minute, its 10:00. Ok, it’s about 10:05 and we are going back on the record with the Interview of Fire Marshall Bob Rogers. You’ve had a chance to look at the job description of Fire Marshall for City of Naples, do you believe that is a good description of what the essential functions and duties of your job are? -9- FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I find that very accurate. VLS: Ok, very good. Now, you are considered a civilian employee? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That is correct. VLS: When you were working as a Fire Inspector, is that considered a civilian position as well? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. VLS: When you were working for the police department, was that a civilian position? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes, it was. VLS: What about the positions you held up North? Were those civilian or? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: No, they were not, those were all official fire department operations. VLS: Ok, very good. Where do you physically report to work? Where is your office located? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: It’s located on Riverside Circle, 355, it’s the police, fire administration. VLS: And as far as the fire department employees who work out of that office, who are they? Just the administrative functions. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: There is three that are with me at 355 and the other two are at the building department. VLS: Ok, and who are the three that work with you at the Riverside Circle address? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: The three employees are Tina Bowling, Barb Sibly and my new employee that was hired just last week is Lou Foster. VLS: Ok and tell me what positions each of them hold? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: They all are classified as fire inspectors and they—Tina, has basically takes the lead on fire education, fire prevention related activities and Lou will be working closely with her as far as there are many things she needs help with as far as doing fire extinguisher training and so forth like that. And Barb also does basically two jobs also- everybody, all three in that office kind of have multiple roles. Now Barb, I managed to hire from East Naples Fire Department so she was well experienced doing inspections over there, she had a lot of experience doing new construction and as I said earlier, with my folks over in the building department, they are extremely busy they basically work 10 hour days in order to keep up. The arrangement is that building department pays their salaries, but they are fire department employees. - 10 - And the reason why they’re over there is because, it’s actually a great system, because when people submit plans, they submit them to the building department. Other places, they do that also but the fire department in another building someplace else, down the street whatever. Well somebody made a very smart decision a while ago- well why don’t we put them all together in one building, that way the plans can stay in the same--VLS: They can circulate easily. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Absolutely. But as I said earlier, when somebody takes a vacation you really get double of work for the other person and sometimes it’s impossible to keep up. So we hired Barb with the understanding that when Kathy or Bob was on vacation she would be able to go over there and help out- keep from getting buried, keep the process going and so that’s what she does. VLS: And with you at the Riverside Circle are also some of the Fire Operations peoplethe Battalion has an office there and also the Fire Chiefs office is located there? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. And training. VLS: And training? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. VLS: Who falls under the training? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Training is Phil Pennington. VLS: And does he have any staff underneath him? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: He does not. VLS: How frequently do you interact with the Chief? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Every single day. VLS: And what would be the circumstances- what causes you to interact? I know you are in the same building so naturally, there’s interaction that flows from that. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Whatever is on the fire that day- you know, there’s just a number of issues that come up. People will call him just yesterday, the day before somebody called him in reference to a hanger out at the airport and you know, wanted to know what he had to do and so forth and so on, so. We talked about that and you know, the procedures that are going to have to be done, what’s the best way to handle it- dealing with this type of situation. So it’s a lot of, a lot of job related issues that come on the plate every single day. VLS: How much of your time is devoted to investigating fires versus prevention and inspection? Are those distinct areas? - 11 - FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. Yeah, I mean fires can happen anytime and according to the fire- the seriousness, I may or may not be called. VLS: Let’s talk about that. When would your office be called to a fire? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I- my job is basically 24/7. The City provides me a vehicle, so I take that vehicle home every night. Um, we have got all sorts of apps and you name it that are on this phone that we all have in administration to let us know when calls come in, so I don’t necessarily have to carry a radio- I can have this and this will tell me. VLS: And you’re referring to your cell phone? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Uh yes, I’m sorry. VLS: So, you are essentially on call? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. Yes and the Chief has made it known to me that he would like to have me respond when there is a structure fire or fire incident of importance, that I should go and start to document the scene and by documenting – would be picture taking and interviews of bystanders and you know, talking to me them and stuff. So many times if I’m at work, I hear a call and you can get a feel how it’s been put out and what the dispatcher says and you know that there is fire shown or something then I will go. And so that can basically get a head start on the investigation because, as soon as you get there and start taking pictures shows you the early stages of the fire and versus if you go there 15 minutes later- the whole… could be much more fire involved and you know it’s hard to figure out in the end. VLS: Does anyone else in your department in the Fire Marshall’s office handle the investigative portion? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: investigator and when I am on you know, during the day if I know, take pictures or talk to major loss or something. I do have Kathy Sulstack, she is certified as a fire vacation or so forth, she is on call to respond and she is need additional help, I’ll have all my staff there to you people- you know, comfort people or whatever after a VLS: Ok, so would Tina Bowling, Barb Sibly, Lou Foster, would they serve in that role or are they strictly more in the Fire Education/Prevention? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: They are not certified so they cannot officially write out the report that is required. But can they help me at the scene? And do certain things? Yes. VLS: Ok, is there a specific report that you as Fire Marshall complete when you respond to a structure fire or a fire of significance? - 12 - FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Right. Once I- if the fire is going to be of significance, then I would do an investigation on it and put out a formally report on it. VLS: Is your report separate from the report that operations departments complete? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes, it is. VLS: What do you call your report? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well that’s the actual incident report- it’s a report of doing the – keeps track of the times of vehicles- who responded and stuff like that. VLS: That’s not what you do? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: No, no. I can add a narrative to that, but a lot of times my narrative is that I will –a more detailed report will be done separate of this incident. VLS: So, what…. Tell me what you call the report that you, as Fire Marshall complete that’s separate from the incident report? And understand, I really don’t know I mean in part, you’re educating me. Please understand, I’m an attorney and I have learned a lot – in the course of these interviews but I need to understand how you work. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Ok, no- it’s just basically a format and that’s something that when I took over, that the Chief wanted to make a lot of changes, so many things in the department have been done a certain way because that’s the way it’s always been done. And a lot of things needed to be changed and one of the things is the fire reportthe previous Fire Marshall just simply did a one page report that was pre written out and you know you’d make you know check marks on this, that and the other thing and that was it. The Chief was- who came from a much larger department, came, and knew how we were lacking in that. But he had a lot on his plate as far as the operations side and instead of making vast changes on the prevention side, he you know, just did a little at a time but yet when I took over he felt that – that was a good time to make a bunch of changes because that way, I could start off doing things a lot better. And this fire incident report is, investigation report- was a classic example of going light years ahead of what we were doing before. VLS: Ok, so there was actually a whole new form…? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Absolutely. VLS: Do you happen to have a copy of the form that was used prior to you becoming Fire Marshall versus a form that you are using now? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Oh absolutely. And we have all these fires that I do- and that have been done in the past are in a folder and clearly marked so I could bring a folder to you- several folders to you and show you what it was like prior to me and what we are doing now/ - 13 - VLS: Ok, I would like to see a sample of that FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Sure. VLS: And one of the reasons I gave you my card was not to just introduce myself but it does have my email address and phone number- I know you didn’t bring anything with you today, I didn’t ask you to bring anything with you but it would be helpful for me if you could forward those to my email address. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Sure. VLS: So is the form that you are using, is it one that is used by other jurisdictions? Or specified by the State of Florida? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Your first comment- uh, I’ve had a chance to talk to other Fire Marshalls, I’ve had a chance to talk to the Fire Marshall in Fort Lauderdale, and because the Chief being from Fort Lauderdale, he’s much more familiar than their setup, they’re much, much busier fire department than we are – much larger. And so instead of tried to reinvent the wheel here, it was very beneficial for me to sit down with Jeff over there and he was able to give me his outline, and again, I could provide that and show you what they submit. VLS: Ok so at some point and time, did you go over to Fort Lauderdale and meet with their Fire Marshall? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. VLS: What’s his name? JeffFIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Jeff Lucas. Yeah. And you know, as usual in your business you know, if you have a question or (illegible) than you know, Jeff has always been somebody that we can talk to. VLS: So you used him occasionally as a resource? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes, yeah, yep. VLS: Did the City of Naples, your Fire Marshall office, did you make any changes to the form that was used in Fort Lauderdale? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Uh… VLS: I mean obviously you’re going to have- it’s going to say a different city and that type of thing but in terms of the actual lay out of it and the information to be inputtedwere any significant changes made? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: None, no. VLS: And when did the City of Naples adopt, or being using the new report format? - 14 - FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well as soon as I started having my first fires you know, that you know- I mean I looked at what was done in the past and I said you know this is not right you know, this is --- (laughs) I mean when I send you the material, it really is quite night and day and you know, it’s something you just don’t want to put your name to. VLS: Ok, had you completed when you were up north, had you done fire reports of this nature before? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well, yes and no. I mean, we – I did fire investigations all through my career it was always part of our training, but the official report would come out of Administration- which was again, up their they were deputy chiefs. If there was something that what I would be doing now would be coming out of their office up there- yes. VLS: So, the report that you complete that is separate from the incident report prepared by operations, that’s called the Fire Marshall’s report? Do you have a name for it? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well, it’s just a fire investigation report. Yeah. VLS: Ok so I mean if I was asking for something- if I wanted to see the report that you do, on a particular fire- I would ask for the fire investigation report on such and such of date? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yeah, or address. Yeah. Because you would know the number that was assigned to it- but if you wanted some information from the house fire that we had on Seashell that Jeff Ridken at his houseVLS: Oh, the attorney Jeff Ridken? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. He lost his house at a home fire earlier this year and then we had another large fire- (illegible) that was struck by lightning. Again, those were assigned a specific number. But, if you were to say the address or the type of firewe would get it to you. And we get that all the time through— VLS: Public records requests? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Exactly. VLS: So, do you submit any information that becomes incorporated into the report that the operations side prepares? They prepare an incident report, does any of your information get incorporated into the incident report? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes it does. The times are always important, so I would want to use the times that were on that report and then give my- you know, the approximate times is always what we use for the responding units and when I arrived and stuff like that so- a lot of times their reports don’t get into the name of the owner, - 15 - and the address is always in there but.. that’s where I get into the nitty gritty of the owner, insurance information and contact information and so forth and again, a fire of the size that we have down here- because it doesn’t take much to get up to a size of a loss down here… you know, I gather as much information as I can, take as many pictures as I can and make that all part of the folder or the electronic version that I keep everything in the computer (illegible). VLS: Does any of the information that you generate in your fire investigation report get reported to the State of Florida? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. I mean, I’m obligated under certain conditions to call the State Fire Marshall’s office to have them come down and –they’re required by statute. They come down and officially are the – they’re in charge. VLS: Under what circumstances does- is the State Fire Marshall’s office called and become the in command in this situation? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Sure. Whenever there is a civilian death or injury, when there is a fire fighter death or injury, when it looks like the property loss will be greater than a million dollars, and also when I’m completely unsure whether it was accidental or arson- I will absolutely give them a call and have them come down and help me out. VLS: Ok, and is that actually those circumstances specified by statute? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. VLS: Ok, I don’t know that statute. And are you the one who makes the determination as to whether the State Fire Marshall- whether those conditions have been met and they should be contacted? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yeah, for the most part because when I get to the scene according to when I get there I don’t want to be in the way. You know, I always try to make eye contact with the Battalion Chief let him know that I’m here, but he’s busy. He’s very busy and I go about and do my thing. Start taking pictures and get a real good documentation of the scene and then anything else- talking to people in the crowd, you know, whatever information I can find and you know, take name, addresses, and phone numbers you know stuff like that. But sometimes, I’ll get there on the backside we had a fire at a gas station and come to find out it was burglary and a couple guys wanted lottery tickets and they stole – they wanted the instant tickets and they grabbed the display case that they come in and on the way out they brought in a can of gas with them and they sprinkled it on the way out and as they were leaving they put a match to it and took off- the building was sprinklered, the sprinkler system came on and put the fire out. And nobody knew what was going on until the store clerk showed up in the morning and got there and saw the door was broken and water was running out the front door and so he called the police department and the police department responded. And they saw that it was a sprinkler head, so they called the fire department and the fire department responded and they said well yeah, we’ve got a fire here – this display case was all burnt up and they in turn called me. And I showed up and so I immediately go to - 16 - the Battalion Chief and talk to him- say you know, what did you guys find? And they proceed to tell me exactly what they’ve found and what’s happened up to that point and I may talk to some of the firefighters that are nearby and once I get enough information I kind of start in on my investigation and in particular case it became very obvious that the store clerk and owner were there at that point and they were looking through the windows and they said yeah the lottery stuff is gone and I got in there one of the classic signs of an arson is when you have more than one area that is on –clearly separated from one another that was on fire. So, you know you look at the counter over here was on fire and you don’t see anything and then you see this cell phone accessory stand that was on fire and fell over and that’s way over here. There’s nothing in-between, so it’s kind of like fire investigation 101 – you know something’s not right. You know there’s been a burglary already and – VLS: Now would you call the State Fire Marshall and FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I did, I immediately told the police department I said look this was definitely a burglary – you should 119.071(3)(a) have you detectives respond. And I said you know I’m going to call the State Fire Marshall’s office because again, under statute- this is clear arson and they want to be involved. VLS: And who do you contact at the State Fire Marshall’s office? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I call our dispatch center and they in turn make the phone call to the state and according to who was on duty that night, weekend or whatever is on call, will call me back on my cell phone and we’ll talk on what I have found, my suspicions and whatever and – VLS: Did they physically come to the scene? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Oh, absolutely. VLS: Are there some designated people at the State Fire Marshall’s office that regularly come to Naples? In other words, is a geographically based in part? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes, there is. They operate out of Fort Myers. VLS: Oh they do? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yeah, they cover quite an area. The state has it broken down into regions, so there you go. VLS: So who are the people from the State Fire Marshall’s office that typically would respond? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Umm... VLS: Names. - 17 - FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Oh. I’ve dealt with Jennifer- I don’t have her last name. (laughs) Lee Quick was another that we did an investigation with and let’s see the third one that I’ve done a couple with is—ugh, I can’t remember his name. VLS: Ok, but they have an office in Fort Myers and it’s those folks that typically will be dispatched to a scene in Naples at your request? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That is correct, yeah. Yep. VLS: Ok. You told me- and I don’t know that I’ve got the right words that you will respond to significant fires. How do you determine what is the type of fire that you, as Fire Marshall are going to respond to? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well, significant fires would be listening to what they’re saying on the radio when they dispatch the call for everybody, and if they say “structure fire” than um, you know PD on scene will proceed reports of flames or whatever. So, when they say “structure fire” I’m pretty well getting dressed, I’m heading to the car. VLS: So, you respond to everything that is called a “structure fire?” FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That is correct, yes. VLS: Tell me what the protocol is when you arrive at a fire – if there is any (illegible) protocol of what you do. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well, wherever I’m at- home, at the office, I’ll always get on the radio and tell dispatch that Fire Marshall will be in route because everyone else is hearing that also- so the Battalion Chief, the people on the trucks have heard that so they know I’m responding. But I also- when I get there, it is my protocol to make sure that the person in charge; the Incident Commander- which is most likely the Battalion Chief or the Acting Battalion Chief- I let him know that I’m there and if he’s busy I leave him alone. If he’s not busy I’ll walk up next to him and you know, they will start filling me in on what’s going on. VLS: Do you dress in protective gear when going to the fire? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I have a jumpsuit, I have overalls I should say- I have helmets, I have boots…so according to the level that I need to get dressed then I will put that on. VLS: But you never get involved in actual extinguishment of the fire? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Absolutely not. That’s one thing- you know, I know my place and my place is you know, I can be inside the tank that they take off but I cannot be anywhere near the building, ok. I am not a State of Florida certified firefighter. I know my place, I know where my limits are and I don’t cross them. - 18 - VLS: So, upon going to a scene- do you … is your basic charge to document? What are you supposed to accomplish at a scene? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well, ultimately I’ve got to find out whether that was in fact accidently or whether it was arson. And – VLS: So, cause is one thing? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Right. And then be able to gather as much information to come up with a decent report that I can put out and ultimately be able to give a good estimate on what the damage may be at that particular time- there’s so much being made out of – not just recently, but in the past that nobody wants to really supposedly put their neck out and give a figure on what the damage may be. Whether it be a pool motor, I mean or a building. And you just give your best estimate and that’s what I expect the folks to do on their fire report and that’s what I do on my report because it’s very easy to hit a key on computer and delete what was there and put a new number in when I have a better understanding of what the insurance adjuster has told me or whatever. VLS: I want to explore this process with you a little bit more about value, are you the one that is ultimately responsible for determining property value? Property damage? That’s what we are talking about right? Its estimate of the property damage associated with a given fire. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Right. I would say the ultimate authority is the insurance adjuster. I mean I’m going to give my – uh, just the other day we had a fire and the people were not home, they are seasonal owners. Their pool equipment outside the house- the motor burnt up and it did some damage to all the other pieces nearby- the pool filter, the pool heater and it happened to be Lieutenant Nadelman was on duty, him and I talked. He said you know I’m kind of familiar with this, but Jerry knows a lot more and so he called Jerry and Jerry said oh yeah that filter is this much, the motors this much, and the heaters this much so he said you know, $9k is going to be the minimum and there was some stuff on the wall that controlled the sprinkler system that were melted, so right then and there we came up- two of us said- until we get a better number from the owner or from the insurance agent we will start with that number. VLS: And is that the number that goes into the incident report that operations prepares? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. VLS: And are operations, in their incident report required to put in some estimated property value damage? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes, with the understanding that it – VLS: It can change. - 19 - FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Exactly. VLS: Do you usually collaborate with operations on scene – in terms of assigning the initial property damage value associated with the fire? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: No, no. I mean we may talk about it, uh you know back in the station the next day you know, whatever- because sometimes my investigations take a long time so by the time I get back to the station, the crews already gone home. You know, especially these bigger fires and everything I mean I could be there at Jeff’s house on Seashell, I was there for 8-9 hours and you know waiting for the State to show up and working with them and everything- the crew was long gone so. So, its, in their report we have access, they have access to certain individuals have the ability to unlock it, get into the report and change the number and – whatever, I don’t have access to that to unlock it and change. VLS: Ok, so you can’t change anything in the incident report that operations prepares? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: No, I do not have that uh. VLS: Alright, now your report- your, the report that you do, do you also place values on estimated property damage at the time that you respond to a scene? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes, that is part of my fire investigation report. VLS: And I’m sure I’ll see that when I see – ill understand it better when I see the form you use. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I mean, I’ll put down my best guess on what the loss was, and that would remain constant- when I put together my reports ill use word but when I get to the point where I’m going to sign off on it- and make it part of the record, then I’ll put it in a pdf file and that’s what’s given out so that nobody can make changes to it. But in my running total of fires that I work on as far as trying to get accurate numbers throughout the year and literally, I mean-- some of these fires I mean, I don’t know if I’ll be able with Jeff’s fire… they haven’t even started construction there so I don’t know if there’s a problem with collecting or whatever- or it may just be the contractors are so busy but sometimes it’s a long process to get – VLS: I’m sure. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: To get that final number and same thing with the house that got hit with lightning, the damage that was so extensive inside, that you know the house was worth 4.5-5 million and the next thing I know they’re looking at 3 million for a loss and they’re not sure whether they should total it out or not because you know they’re going to find more damage- or possibly more damage which is going to get that figure up even higher. So, I haven’t been able to come up with a good number from that and those are our two biggest losses. And so I talked to them and they are saying well this is the number we are trying to settle with, but we can’t get it to settle yet. And that’s number that ill - 20 - VLS: So you in rely in large part if it’s in insured property, on insurance companies to provide total value? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Right, yeah. Yeah. Because I think I’m looking for accuracy. Again, these numbers are being passed onto annual reports and numbers people that at City Hall that want to look at stuff like that so I want to be able to put my name on something that’s accurate – as best as I can. And sometimes it’s a real struggle and then there’s times that I just can’t get a good number because people don’t want to cooperate. VLS: What do you do then? Just the best you can? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well, yeah and I – and that’s difficult because you know this one that I have dealt with in the past, which was one of my first fires it was last Christmas Eve, and the lady was you know, had some art work and had some costumes in there that she valued a lot and the insurance company had a different opinion and she was a private person and she really was kind of upset when the fire came out in the paper. You know, I mean the papers-what really made her mad – the newspaper actually had – you had the ability to look at this little insert on their website where you could click on it and it would send you to google and show you exactly where the house was. And she was very upset she thought we did it. I said, no- no we didn’t have that technology- that’s the newspaper that did that. Yeah, we reported to the newspaper, they called and said yeah we had a fire at such and such but as far as showing your exact location, that’s their ability to be able to do that on their website, not us. But she was you know, infuriated with that and so she you know, became very reluctant to give me any real good information. The house was damaged but um… VLS: The contents was the chief issue on- of the area of contention on that with the value of the contents as opposed to the structure? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Right. But then again, they tore down the whole structure- so, where do you draw the line? Obviously the insurance company isn’t going to pay for that whole structure. She must of felt—they must of felt that it was, again- I don’t know if the whole loss is on the insurance company or they decided to demo the house and re-build and take a certain settlement from that- she will not give me that information, so I don’t know. So what I’m doing is just giving- I’m sticking with my original thought of just the contents of what was damaged in that particular area of the house and those costumes and paintings that were damaged. VLS: Is there some kind of, when you update- you have to put in an initial estimate what you see at the scene, and then that is refined as you go through the investigation process- is that correct? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: VLS: Do you keep the initial estimate value- is that entered into the system and you just keeping it as up or down as you learn more information? - 21 - FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: For the most part, like I said earlier; the estimate is fixed in that pdf form, in that initial fire report. VLS: Ok FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: But- with the understanding, I think the way that I write it up that it is an estimate. VLS: Yes. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: And it can change, you know, by a very, very wide amount. VLS: So you would have the initial report. So, its fixed in a pdf form, one can see what your initial estimate was, and then you can also see if you’ve closed it out what the final report is and the variation? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: See I—we can go back and again, if I can let operations know- that they in turn can go back and unlock that original fire incident report and they can update that number and make that more accurate and thenVLS: And do you sometimes do that? Do you advise fire operations that the property value based upon your investigation should be adjusted to reflect a different value? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: If I have the opportunity, yes by all means because again, that’s part of their reporting system- the feds, the state would like to have good information also. VLS: Ok and how do you communicate to fire operations that the refined value based on your investigation should be a different figure? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I would do that by email. But again, the ones that I’m dealing with right now, the small ones have been easy, these three or four big ones are still out there hanging so I think maybe one of them- I have told them, this is a good number and it could have been a smaller fire but, you know, again we have tried to work closely in the past- we are all supposed to be on the same team. VLS: Yes. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: And, you know, the numbers are what they are. paycheck doesn’t get bigger or smaller by coming up with different numbers. My VLS: Sure. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: It’s the time and the effort and to be able to wait these people out and to stay on them to see if you can get some good numbers. And that’s been one of the hardest problems, especially on these big, big fires- is that they are still negotiating and… - 22 - VLS: But when you say negotiating your talking about the insurance company is negotiating with the insured home older? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yeah, and builders. You know, the last thing that I heard with the house that got struck by lighting is you know, the insurance company was getting these figures from the builders that were way above what their adjusters have thought and they are having a hard time dealing with that. You know, coming up with the proper settlement and again, I don’t have any control over that. I don’t know if it’s going to court eventually or whatever, but some of these places like I said, are right at stand still. VLS: Do you keep within your Fire Marshall file the documentation that you obtain from a homeowner or from their insurance company that you have used to determine property damage estimates? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I keep as much documentation as I can. I mean one of my first things that I do on all fires is I go to the County website and get the appraisal on the house and you know, the sketches that they show and maybe even an aerial view of what they have allowed to get off their site and make that part of the file. Scan it, make it part of the electronic file and you know, use that to a certain extent but then again, that’s not totally accurate either. VLS: So as you get information from third parties that are not necessarily public record, but through the cooperation of the home owner or through the cooperation of their insurance adjuster- you enter that information too into your record? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Absolutely, yeah. VLS: And then you said that to the extent that you are able to determine that may be an initial value of a loss was high or low, you will communicate that at the appropriate time via email to whom in operations? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well usually I send it out to- we have a habit to sending it out to everybody. In other words the three Battalion Chiefs, training and the Fire Chief so that everybody stays in the loop. VLS: So regardless of which Battalion Chief was the one whose unit responded, it would go out to all three- plus the training, plus the Chief in an email format? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. VLS: Does the Chief become involved in any respect, with the evaluation of property loss? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: know, he may or may not go pictures of the incident- the informed I should say of the Uh, well always talk about loss you know, as far as—you to the fire to begin with so I will send him a lot of times, Chief has a like to keep the City Manager involvedincidents that are going on within the City and the City - 23 - Manager, in turn, may or may not forward them to City Counsel so- you know, anything that is notable – incident in the City whether it be a large scaled traffic accident you know, to small airplane incident to an incident on beach – a drowning or whatever, he likes to make sure the City Manager’s aware and in turn, he can let the Assistant City Manager know and everything in case City Counsel questions him. Says you know geeze, I saw all this actions going on –on the beach. Do you have any idea Mr. Moss what’s going on? And he’ll know, he’ll say yes, I got a brief report from the Chief. VLS: Does the Chief normally provide that in a written format? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and also you know, the pictures I will send him- you know, we’ll talk about a loss of basically my best guess because again, he may or may not have been there. The bigger incidents, yes he was there. The two big fires and you know- again, it was clear one of them was told and the other one wasn’t. So Jeff was able to give me an idea what he thought the value of that house was and we were talking in the 1.5-1.75 of his house and you know, that’s what we went with. VLS: Does the Chief ever give you any opinions or give any input of the value of a loss? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: If we are together and we are looking at the same thing, you know we will toss back and forth- well what do you think? Well, I think we are looking at a major loss here- this looks to be with my understanding of the house in this neighborhood they look to be about 4-5 million, the inside is totally trashed and you know I’m looking at least a 2.5 million dollar loss and he will voice his opinion and but ultimately, you know if he says 5 million, I’ll say well I don’t see that, I think we ought to go with this figure and we can change it. We don’t get that – you know we don’t do that, you know, we’re not fixing the books you know. VLS: Ok so he’s never instructed you to increase—because he believed the value, and I’m talking about an honest difference of opinion, does he instruct you to use his number? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: No, no. I put the numbers down that I’m comfortably with and I have made some mistakes and I’ll tell him that you know, that I was way over and that there was a boat hit by lightning and you know, I was lead to believe that there was going to be a substantial loss there when in fact, it wasn’t very much at all and the numbers got changed on that. VLS: And how is that – is that communicated to operations for purposes for their reporting that the actual damage value is--? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I believe I let them know that they, that this – that particular incident where were thought it was going to be --- well that was kind of all over the chart because they had to take the boat out of the water and do a thorough examination with the coast guard and everything. The motor we thought was lost, when in fact it was just a circuit board that burnt up because of the lightning charge. I think - 24 - we originally said around 10 or 15k and I think it was like $1,500 that they found was the ultimate loss was just some radios and a circuit board in the motor- so. VLS: Is it your understanding then, that in terms of the incident report that operations sends on to the State that the incident report gets amended to reflect the better estimate after investigation? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Does it always? I am not sure, should it? Yes, because again, as we talked earlier the State and the feds I think would like to have accurate information. If everybody is doing their job, including me, that I let them know that numbers have changed and that stuff can get corrected and again, I am trying to make every attempt when I get good numbers to pass that along. But – VLS: And that’s generally by email, you said to all involved? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Right. VLS: Do you know whether the Chief, separately, and apart from you, every communicates to the Battalion Chief or to the people in operations who complete the reports that go to the State- that he ever informs them that there needs to be a change in the value of attributed to a loss? Or do all communications of that nature come through you? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I’ve been in his presence with whether it be at meetings, staff meetings that he wants to provide the most accurate information that we can with the system that has been dealt us. We have certain people in the City and that are on City Council that are- which you would say “Data driven” and they really like numbersand we haven’t always had the best technology to give them these numbers nor do we have the staff you know, some of us are working very, very long hours to do the work that other people should be doing. Um, and unfortunately… VLS: And what do you mean by that? Understaffing in your office is that what you mean? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Oh yeah. We are definitely understaffed. The PSSI report clearly indicates that we are understaffed. You know, they’ve talked about having another Fire Inspector which is desperately needed. We need some improvement with fire prevention alone- we are working, finally, where we are getting to the point where were going to implement a new fire inspection program that goes very nicely with ImageTrend, same company. So, again- we will be able to do a lot better tracking that is demanded by certain individuals in the City and unfortunately up to this point we’ve had to go through paper after paper, after paper to get some of these numbers and the City is very anxious to upgrade a lot of our technical stuff, you know as far as getting us the best software out there- and hard ware. And that’s one of the things as for fire prevention in the past, was we’ve had kind of mediocre equipment- tablets that were antiquated to day one to a software package that was Copel, that was not very friendly to work off of- but the ultimate goal and this was always been difficult for them to understand, it that we want to provide; me, the Chief, and I thought everybody else was - 25 - to provide the best records, numbers- the best numbers of what is actually happening in the City that we can put our name to, that this is what we truly believe is our best numbers. But it’s not necessarily easy with some of the shortage of staff you know. VLS: Do you ever get pushed back from the operations department when you send an email indicating that the property damage is significantly different then what was first expected? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: No, I have never received any criticism or question on property values at all. VLS: And I’m not just- I think I asked a question and I think we got off track; do you know whether the Chief, separate and apart from your involvement ever communicates to operations staff to change the value in an incident report? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I have absolute no knowledge that he has ever done that. VLS: Ok, why don’t we take a break because you haven’t really had a break- and its 10 after 11:00 so I’m going to turn off the tape. I’ve turned the tape recorder back on, it is now 5 of noon, I am with Fire Marshall and we are resuming our interview. During the break I asked the Fire Marshall to go back to his office to bring over some files that reflect the difference in how the format of preparing the Fire Marshall’s report on fires have changed since Fire Marshall Rogers took over and he has brought with him- some files as examples that I would like to identify for the record and we got copies made, I’ll ask him some questions to illustrate some points. Before doing that, because we are going to be having Exhibits to your interview, I am going to mark as Number 1 the Job Description that we previously discussed ok? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. VLS: And you brought over with you four files that were fires that were investigated by your predecessor under a different format, is that correct? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Correct. VLS: Ok, and so, I’m going to mark those 2-6; with Number 2 being – is this the number you go by? Incident No. 1202149. Exhibit 3 would be 1303320, Number 4 would be 1301982 and Number 5 would be 12... Is that a 0 or an 8 I think it’s a zero? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Uh, zero. VLS: Ok so Number 5 would be 1204055. And you brought these over per my request to illustrate the difference in the format of the fire investigation report- the format that was previously used versus those that you are currently using. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That is correct. - 26 - VLS: So I understand, the fire investigation report, for instance, on 1202149 Exhibit 2, would this document be submitted to the State of Florida or to any governmental agencies? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: No. VLS: Ok, so these are internal documents and the City of Naples Rescue Department maintains those records in both electronic and hard copy form? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes but in a public records request, they want to see that. They’ll ask insurance companies’ lawyers will request that whether the Fire Marshall did a report, so that’s something that would go to them along with the operations incident report. VLS: And typically are there redactions made in response to public records request, if you know? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yeah, there’s certain things that they- social security numbers I believe- if that happens to be on there. VLS: So to the extent that anything that is attached to your interview as an exhibit it would need to go through – perhaps, the redaction process? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. VLS: Ok. You also brought with you a document that is kind of a template of how you’re preparing your investigation reports now? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That is correct. VLS: Alright, and I’m going to mark that as Exhibit Number 6 to your interview. That’s a two page document? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That one was, yes. VLS: Ok. And then, Number 7, what is it? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That’s the actual form that we would use so when you bring it up on the computer screen it’s just a matter of clicking on it and then you can start writing your narrative and by using this template you can put all your... VLS: Ok, now where within your current format do you typically discuss damage estimates? What section would it fall under in your report? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I believe…it comes under Fire Scene Examination Amount of Loss Damage. VLS: Ok. Alright…and once you have… do you come to a point where you finalize or close out your fire investigation? - 27 - FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. Yeah, down at the one of the last things we talk about that. How we- if it, I’m the only one doing the investigation then I can close it out. Usually when I call the State, I make notation that this is my report but the official report will come from the State Fire Marshall’s office, because they after all you know, take the lead. So I still do one but I make it known that the official report will come from them. VLS: So it would be under the status section of your fire investigation report where you would indicate in the report that the case be closed and why it is ready to be closed? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Correct. VLS: And when one of your fire investigation reports is concluded, if the property damage value that you have determined and recorded in your report, differs significantly from what is in the fire operations incident report, would it be at that time that you would generate a email to the Chief and to the Battalion Chiefs indicating what your finding of value was? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Right, that’s something that I want to get out to everyone that I have come to the most accurate way of coming- that the insurance folks and home owner have agreed on this particular settlement and that’s going to be our best accurate figure to go with. VLS: Ok and do you know what happens after you’ve sent that email? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: It is my hope, or my belief that once they have that information they’ll be able to go back into ImageTrend which is the system that will get them back into that report, and unlock it so that they can make the changes to that report. VLS: Ok, and do you know in fact whether that procedure is generally followed by operations? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I have not in the past followed up and actually seen they do that. No. VLS: Ok and do all communications- or most communications to fire operations regarding revisions to loss estimates whether they are up or down, come from you as the Fire Marshall or from the State Fire Marshall’s office? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: No, the State Fire Marshall would not contact anybody other than me, because I‘ve been the one dealing with them. So anything that has to do with the loss is- whether it goes up or down, is totally my responsibility. I’m the one that is assigned to follow up on these and talk with the folks that I’ve got in my files here to see if they are any further along and sometimes they will say well give us another month, give us.. You know, were far away. So at that point- you know, it just goes back in the drawer and I’ll make a note on the calendar to call back in a month to see if they are any further ahead on a conclusion. - 28 - VLS: So you wouldn’t expect those communications to come directly from the Chief to the operations as far as making a change in their report, you would expect those changes to be communicated by you? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. I’m the one that has the phone numbers, the people’s names, everything is—should, and I can’t imagine that they- understand I haven’t had- I’ve just been at the job just a little bit less than a year. I’ve had some major fires and I’ve had a lot of little fires. The little fires are fairly quick and easy to get rid of. These major ones… are you know, ongoing. VLS: Ok, is there any major one that has been concluded and closed by you using the new fire investigation report format? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: As far as a million dollars and over, no. No- they are still on going. VLS: Ok, you also brought with you some sample folders of fires that you have been investigating using the new report format. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That is correct. I brought four of those. VLS: Are any of those closed? Or are those all on going? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: The Seashell fire is still open, but the Snook Drive was a boat fire and that is closed. That was – VLS: I’m going to mark this as Number 8- and that’s the Snook Drive Fire is incident number 1502272. Now if you have closed a file, an investigation, and there has been a significant change in the damage estimate from what was recorded in the operations report, would your memo to operations be placed within the file itself? Let me give you an example. Let’s just say- and I don’t see one on this file, but on the Snook Drive fire investigation, if in this case the incident report that is in the fire estimates dollar losses in value of the property of $100,000.00, your investigation report estimated fire damage at $75,000.00. Was that the final figure? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes, that was the final figure. VLS: Ok, now would that be an instance where you would typically inform through an email the operations that there was a difference in what they estimated initially and what your final determination was? Was that not significant enough to – generate an email? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well no, when you’re looking at a figure of $25,000.00, I consider that significant. So whether I sent them an email on this- I’m not sure. I would have to do an email search or something like that. VLS: So you didn’t necessarily put in the file on the incident report the memo that you sent to operations? - 29 - FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That is correct. VLS: Ok. Can you show me another file- of the fire that you have? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: This one was back in May, this is a fire that was right next door to us. It was Quick Pick. Quick Pick is like a 7-11, they had a fire. It was in a small strip mall they were building in this strip mall and … VLS: Ok and that is the incident report number on that is 1502227? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. VLS: And is this one that has been closed? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well, yes I thought it was closed but— VLS: Well those things can be re-opened right? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well, this has been kind of an interesting one because a few weeks ago I attended a meeting where they want to turn the whole plaza into a 711. This store has never re-opened and I know the owner was very anxious to get right back into operation because it was neighborhood store for the locals in that area of town and he really wanted to get it back in operation but it hasn’t gone anywhere—and I’m not sure whether the land owner has decided not to and maybe is going to sell the property to 7-11 because they want to turn it all into a gas station convenience store and haven’t heard a thing since but that – I’m not sure, and again it’s one of those that I do have to follow-up on sometime. I gave an estimate of I think, a half a million, $500,000.00 for the repair of that because it was quite a bit of damage, a lot of complete stock was lost in that store and so the follow up I have not done in a while, but … VLS: How would the loss be affected by what the owner ultimately chooses to do with the property? Like, re-build? Does that affect value or does it just give you at times, more information? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well… (laughs) VLS: I mean that’s maybe a dumb question. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well actually, it’s a good question. The owner of the business was leasing from that individual who owned the property, so he may of decided not to allow the rebuilding of it- so he actually, there’s no loss, although then the owner of the business loss stock. So he may have gotten paid off just by the value of the stock of merchandise. But the actually owner is maybe contemplating- and that’s why it’s taken so long where nothing has been done, he probably has that on the market so he’s not going to repair it… he may be pocketing the excess insurance money and not having it fixed knowing he is going to sell and it’s going to be torn down. So, that’s something…again- - 30 - VLS: So how do you reflect that? Does the value that you put down, include what the damage was for instance to the building, or because it’s torn down, is it really damaged? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: You know, that’s going to be a good question because I don’t have a good answer for that because I know when I talked to the owner through his accounting of merchandise of going in and out- he thought he could come up with a good figure of what the value was between the beer and the potato chips- he had it figure out he was in that $60-70,000.00 range. But the actual cost of replacing all – fixing it was going to be significantly higher so there is a loss, but how do you figure that as far as – do you just go with an estimate of this $500,000.00 and say well if they had fixed it, then this would have been approximate and the loss with the merchandise too. That’s…that’s a good question and that’s something I haven’t got to yet and I don’t know how to handle that at the moment- how that’s going to be figured out. VLS: I’m looking the exhibit number 9; the ImageTrend or operations report relating to this incident, and under the section of the report where it says estimated dollar losses and values – there’s, it just shows a number 1 of property and contents, do you know what that reflects? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: (silence) VLS: Maybe I need to ask somebody in operations. opposed to a dollar value. It appears to be a code as FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes, it is definitely a code, and usually they have a code close by to correspond with it- but this particular… VLS: Well, that’s something I can ask operations. I’m not trying to take you outside of your area. In this particular file there is a disc. What is on the disc? Photographs? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: You know what’s nice about some of these fires when you investigate them is the security cameras that these convenience stores have. And this particular store was just loaded with cameras and it makes the job so much easier because you still do your investigation and you try to figure out ok, it started here and you know, and then you start digging through and we nailed it. We nailed the investigation. And then the police department, they are able to download and play-back on what we just did and it shows exactly the fire starting in that particular area, so that is video from the security camera. VLS: And this is important as demonstrating the origin and cause? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Cause and origin, correct. Absolutely. VLS: And for purposes of the record, I think for ease in duplicating what is here, I am not going to have this disc duplicated. Just a notation that it is in exhibit number 9 should there be a need to examine it. Because it might be kind of complicated to have that duplicated at this time. What else did you bring? - 31 - FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well another one that I brought was – an extensive file here on the fire that we talked about earlier. VLS: The lightning? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Jeff—this was Jeff’s. VLS: Oh this was Jeff Fridkin’s house? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. And again, that was a major fire loss. And… VLS: And this is incident report 1502324. completed? This one you said – has not been FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: No, this one has, again, I called Jeff maybe about 6-8 weeks ago and see if he – because you know, it’s funny… the folks really want to get these reports as soon as they can because they think they are going to start building in a matter of days or weeks and you know, I explained to Jeff that you know, accuracy on this one wasn’t critical because what happened here was – what he did was a remodel of his deck area, the very nice gas grill that he had installed was not done correctly and that’s what was caused, in my opinion…the fire. And it can… VLS: That could have some significant ramifications. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes, yes. And I got to believe that this was most definitely going to be litigated and that’s why there’s such a slow re-start on getting his house done. Or started. VLS: So the report, the investigation report which bears the date of May 10, 2015, is subject to revision? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes, yeah. VLS: And in this particular report, under the section Fire Scene Examination it indicates the fire loss was estimated to be 1 million, 750 thousand dollars ($1,750,000.00). Was that based on what was first indicated in the operations incident report? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Jeff and I- while the fire, the fire took a long time to put out, because it was in a… it was very difficult and I had a chance to talk to Jeff at length during the day and you know, he said that his best estimate was that figure. So that is the figure that I told operations that I was going to go with because I got that directly from the owner. VLS: So you in this instance, at least in terms of the operations incident report and your current version on the investigative report which is not complete- your report the same? - 32 - FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. VLS: Same figures. Ok. And this file also has a disc in it… what is reflected on this disc? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: FM pictures, FM video, which is all stuff that I took. First pic on arrival, that was the Battalion Chief when he got there, he took a quick picture with this cell phone and pictures of the gas grill. So again, a lot of these pictures ill put on a disc so that when we do get a records request, then we copy it off of that one. VLS: And on this particular case, within the fire itself, there’s also some photographs. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: A lot of pictures, that first one right there was the picture that the Battalion Chief took when he got there. He immediately took that and that was it. VLS: And again, as we did with the last file, for purposes of this investigation I’m not going to ask that a copy of the disc be duplicated- but note that there is one in the file. If you would get at this time, a public records request on this incident, would you respond with what you currently have in the file or is there some exemption under which you wait to produce records until your Fire Marshall investigation is completed? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Uh… VLS: Or do you know? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well the records request is handled by our secretary, Kathy Carrington. And she’s very knowledgeable, you have to be- and she usually takes care of all of this and whatever is in the file at this point is what we would give them, for her –that she would use. VLS: And she would make a determination of whether it falls under some exemption because it’s still under investigation? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes in that particular case- where these are… I’m sorry, these reports are done, these are easy. But again, as we mentioned earlier, some people are very, very anxious to get those reports you know, yesterday then to- and you know, I tell Kathy look it’s going to take a little while- you know, I’m still doing some work. You know, we’ll get to them when I’ve—it’ll be done when it’s done. VLS: Yes. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: So I’m not…the Chief has made it very, very clear to me that accuracy is better than throwing out something than sitting on the witness stand trying to explain to everybody well you had to get out there quick because they wanted it and you know, that doesn’t fly. (Laughs) so, no. I take my time and I do it as quickly as I can but it’s going to complete and before I sign my name at the bottom. - 33 - VLS: And this, as it relates to this particular file; the incident on Seashell Avenue, if there was a public records request made today, would anything be released from your file? Because you said it’s not complete. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well, on Seashell, this one is complete. VLS: Oh it is, alright. And did you bring another file? (illegible) FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yeah the other one I brought that was struck by lightning, a house and that – again, this one is the one that is really unsettled because they – the last time I did talk to the adjuster was that – what they’re figures came up with and what the actual builder came up with an estimate to do the work was quite a span in money and they needed to figure out what they were going to do. VLS: Ok. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: And again, this was 6 weeks ago- you know, I do need to start making some phone calls prior to the end of the year because we are trying to make sure the information in the calendar year is accurate but I can see that some of these will not-will have to go with our best estimate on what’s going on. VLS: Now is this one complete as far as – if there was a public records request would you be able to release this report, your file contents and its current (illegible) FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. VLS: Ok. And I’ve marked this- the lightning loss one which is from 7th Street South, I’ve marked that as number 11, in this particular case the fire incident report prepared by operations shows property, shows a pre-incident value of 1.5 million, contents at 500,000 and losses…actual losses of property 750,000, in contents 300,000. Based on your investigation you have higher numbers… is that correct? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That is correct. VLS: And on what…at least based on your current information, do you know why your values differ from what was original estimated by operations? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I do not know why they put their pre incident value that low because the Collier County Appraiser clearly indicates that is a much higher figure. Whether they got confused at what the question being asked, or I’m not sure- but I clearly put in the report that the figures that were listed under Collier County Appraiser and you know that is something that- when I’m trying to come up with a good estimate I will use that and look at the figures and look at the loss and say you know, that were looking at least a half the value of the house is lost. You know, which would be what? 2 million I think in this case? I think it said 4.1 million was what it sold for, but again… you got to be careful because the land isn’t included in that and everything so you’ve got to look at the property, the building itself so. But again, I try to talk in this process, which you know, this report I think took two to three weeks for me to feel comfortable and - 34 - letting it go and signing off on it. At this point, I’m already talking to the adjusters and they’ve had preliminary work done then. This one was really involved because… VLS: We’re talking about the? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: The one that got struck by lightning. VLS: Ok. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yeah, because the lightning struck this decorative chimney on top of the house and it the fire started there and when I got there the decorative (illegible) type of chimney display was at a 45 degree angle and it already had started to collapse into the house. So, before we could actually do a safe investigation, that thing had to be removed and that took a long time because some people thought you could just …you know, cut a couple of boards and it was going to fall inside. And we had an Engineer come out and say no, no this has to be lifted off by crane to do it safely and everything so. It was nothing easy about this particular fire so far and so once that got removed then they were allowed to bring people in there and start doing assessment of the true loss that they could come up with. And of course the longer the house sits the worse it gets I mean, the mold and mildew started to kick in, I mean look at the time of year here. So floors that possible could of salvaged were all warped and everything and the damage just climbed considerably. So it was – every time I called the value, the loss was going up and like I said, the last time we talked it was at that 2.75 and well what they thought, the adjuster thought and the builders were coming in way over that so. VLS: Alright, thank you and we marked that file number 11 and again, in this particular file…well there’s some personal property what is? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Those are plates that came off the fire place and that decorative fire chimney, there was fire place but it was a vent less fire place… had absolutely nothing to do with the fire, but it’s one of those things that you kind of have to rule out that it was a cause and so just by talking, the gas had been turned off and there was no connection but – VLS: You took the plates and put those in the file. Ok well for purposes of this investigation, we’ll make copies of the front and back side of the plates. Ok. I appreciate you bringing those over. When you are finished with your fire investigation report, what do you do with it other than keeping it in the file? Who does it go to? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well it, I let Kathy the secretary know that it is completed so any records requests that she has pending she can fulfill at that point and it goes in a file cabinet- the hard copies here goes in a file cabinet in my office and stays there. VLS: Ok. And you said that it is not required- your report is not required to be submitted to any State agency? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: No. - 35 - VLS: Do the reports that you prepare, are they used for any reports that are generated by the Fire Department for the City or City Counsel? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well the fires through ImageTrend, the Chief, and the Battalion Chiefs have the ability to do a search of the records to bring out all the fires in the City and according to what codes you put in, a structure fire- fires are usually in the 100 code for ImageTrend. So that will print out all the fires that are there and according to- again, I have nothing to do with this. Tina, has been trained to do some… to do ImageTrend and get the records data out of it and so these numbers, if the Chief or Tina or anybody is looking for certain things- whether it be just the addresses and the codes or get into the losses- and they are able to get all that information on a spread sheet and keep up. From what I understand, you know, everything is right there what they would need. VLS: Ok, would they be pulling information from both ImageTrend and also from the Fire Marshall Investigation report? Separately? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Not that I know of. I believe that the Chief- I always let him look at my report and he gives me his constructive criticism- on said in structure or fortunately I have spell check so he doesn’t nail me on that. But again, were looking to put out a good product. Something when I go to court, I can you know, be proud of and hopefully keep me out of trouble and the same thing for him. When you’re the Chief everything reflects on him and I do my best to do my job whether it be my fire prevention or my fire investigations to put out a good product, because I know he’s going to get the heat if I screw up so that’s why I do my best. Even though I’m friends with him there’s no free ride. He expects just as much out of me as anybody else in that fire department and I make sure that on a daily basis, I give him 110% and a lot of times it takes more than that (both laugh). VLS: Does the Chief ever request or suggest to you that you make substantive changes in your Fire Marshall Investigation Report? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: No, no. VLS: To the narrative or to figures? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: No, absolutely not. VLS: Ok. So you’re not involved, your job – as far as a particular fire is concerned, essentially ends as far as record keeping is concerned when your fire investigation report is completed? Absent, a need to reopen it? Another words; you don’t prepare any, you’re not involved in the preparation of any reports that may go to City Council, may go to the City Manager’s office? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I am not. VLS: And, do you have any direct contact with members of City Council? - 36 - FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I do not. VLS: Have you ever been asked to appear and report at City Council meetings? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I have not. VLS: Ok, do you have any contact with the Media? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: On occasion. VLS: Ok and describe to me what functions of your job description or how the day unfolds might require you to have contact with the media? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well, being in this position for the last year, all my previous history I have had very little contact with the media- it wasn’t a job requirement. It was not something that usually the Chief or the Fire Marshall of that particular -or what you would see on TV usually take the lead on something and so, I have this year taken some interviews with media that the Chief has pushed me to do. And I’m getting better at it I think, I get more comfortable. So, you know, it’s just a matter of it has to pertain to a fire you know, I give them what is proper to give out and everything so. VLS: How frequently have you had contact with the media? And I mean both print and you know, television. How frequently have you- during the time that you’ve served as Fire Marshall, been interviewed? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yeah, probably print and – probably between 6 and 8 times maybe. And that’s- I think that’s fairly accurate. VLS: You earlier mentioned, contact with well, maybe you didn’t. You mentioned PSSI which I understand is an outside firm that came to prepare a plan on the fire and rescue department. Were you employed by the City at the time the PSSI did their report? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I was. VLS: Were you interviewed? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. VLS: And do you recall who interviewed you? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I do not. VLS: On what topics were you interviewed by PSSI? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Fire prevention only. VLS: Fire prevention only, ok. Have you read the PSSI report? - 37 - FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: For the most part, yes. I mean, I spent time on the fire prevention aspect of it. VLS: Did you focus primarily on that aspect of it? Where you were reviewing it? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Oh yeah, because you know, I knew ahead of time that were shortcomings and I wanted to see how it presented in the report and so, yeah I definitely looked at that but I mean there was….and you know, being a firefighter most of my life, I was interested in all the other aspects of it too and how they looked at it because – I…there are certain things that are very different down here than what I’m use to up in the North East. So, I mean it – so I was kind of curious to see how they would look at it. VLS: As it relates to fire prevention and the segment of the PSSI report that addressed that, did you believe it was a fair assessment? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I did, I think the individual that did interview me- and I can’t remember his name but he was- had a background in fire prevention and any good report that comes out should have a good section in it for fire prevention because is... That is key, and public education also. So, you know, I was hoping that they would give it the time that it needed and they sure did, they did. VLS: Did they ask for any data from you as it related to fire prevention? Or do you think the request for data went through another source? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I did not provide any data, but the data that – I know that the Chief had provided the data to them when they requested it and I don’t know if it was through a drop box or something like that. And so they had access to a lot, a lot of records. VLS: I understand that there was after the report was prepared, that is was circulated at least among some members of the fire department for comments and modifications or suggested revisions, were you ask to review the report for that purpose? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes VLS: And did you suggest—was there any inaccuracies or things that you indicated as it related to the segments that were relevant to your job description? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yeah, there was- overall in the report there were some problems, inaccuracies that needed to be corrected because they – I don’t know if it was editing or what, but it needed some work and I know the Chief spent a lot of time looking at it and came up with a list and we looked at it- we being myself and the Battalion Chiefs looked at it and agreed that my section, their section that yeah these were problem areas that needed to be corrected. VLS: Do you recall what the problem areas were that needed to be corrected under the areas for which you have responsibility as Fire Marshall? - 38 - FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: (pauses) Corrected. No. VLS: That’s fine, I’m sure it’s reflected in a document. Nothing stands out as being as you sit here today, nothing stands out as being a major issue? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: No, no. I mean, it was – in my- in our section, there wasn’t – there was just little things, nothing that was major. I don’t know if it was something to do with fees that they- I know that they knew there was – well maybe that was something that they requested, it was… a lot of fire departments in our area charge for inspections at some point given the inspection, and we don’t do anything and that was something that they recommended. I thought there was something else – I could be wrong. VLS: Alright, I’m going to change gears for a moment and move back to the letter which is really the focus of what I’ve been asked to conduct the inquiry on, it’s the October 21, 2015 letter. You said that you’ve seen the letter before. Do you recall when you first saw it? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That was shortly after that particular day, I think the Chief received it and Mr. Moss and the Chief sent it out to the staff. VLS: Ok. Has the Chief talked to you about the letter? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Oh yeah, we’ve talked about it. VLS: And what has he told you about the letter? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Uh, well…uh, we were both kind of puzzled on some of this stuff that they have put in here. (silence) You know, when they talk about apparatus and facilities, I mean this is – its... it’s... Kind of unbelievable really. VLS: Ok well let me ask you, let’s go through…no, go ahead I don’t want to interrupt you- continue. I interrupted you. FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: “The Chief has misled the community and City staff. In particular, he has created the misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities.” Well, as far as apparatus goes, it was clearly, clearly pointed out that these guys were riding around in junk. They were old, heavily being maintained needing lots of work consistently on a regular basis. VLS: Are you referring to trucks? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yeah they are front line pieces. They’re you know, the specifically … Ladder 1, which is one of the first pieces that it got and Engine 2 both heavily used on a daily basis and in desperate need of replacement. Rescue 2, againgoes out on all emergency calls. Vehicle that they were running was a real piece of junk and so where they are referring to those three pieces—a boat. Here we are surrounded by water on three sides. Huge, huge value of boats in and around this City, - 39 - residences that are on this City- or are on the coastline- on the water. Businesses, marinas, they had a hand-me-down police boat that they were using and um, constantly you know, totally, not something that I would want to send if I was in charge of the department, not something that I want to send them out in the gulf at 2 or 3 o’clock in the morning because you have been called because people are in need of help out there. And one of the last things that they did use the boat for before it was taken out of service was they were responding with the boat and the seat broke and fell over backwards and the tower that holds up the roof and everything – broke at a couple of different locations. And that’s what happens when you get hand-me-downs. Because somebody doesn’t want to spend the money, so was it that apparatus that they were referring to? VLS: Well- I don’t, and I can’t, I really can’t answer those questions. To ask you in general, do you believe that the Chief has misled the community and City staff by creating the misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Absolutely not. VLS: Ok. And do you get- as Fire Marshall, do you get involved at all, in the determining the need for replacement? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Not as Fire Marshall, but in my first life- up in the State of Maine, you know, I was directly involved in, on the building committee of a brand new fire station. So the vehicle that was going to be put in that station- which was a… what we call a heavy rescue. It’s not an engine, it’s not a ladder, it’s the truck that has all the tools and lights and air systems and extrication equipment- everything that you would need - they call it a heavy duty rescue. It had a light tower that you put up and you can eliminate the whole scene of a structure. It’s a unique piece of equipment and it’s something that I was involved with. So, with 31 years behind me, I am very aware of the equipment needs, whether it be… I was also a Union President sometimes fighting at the table with administration saying you know we needed this, we needed that and so I’ve been on both sides of the table and it is clear to me that this place when the Chief took over, needed a lot of work. This wasn’t (laughs) this hasn’t been a retirement for either one of us, it is a lot of work down here. And it’s not you know, the guys fault, the firefighters fault. You know, maybe not the City’s fault. You know, they had I guess the emphasis down here is to make everything look very nice and maybe I do know for a fact that when you put fire departments underneath the police department and make it a public safety department- the fire department always gets the short end of the stick. That is – there is no question in my mind, I’ve seen that experiment done in Maine, and I’ve seen it done in other states. Somebody always wants to try that concept- that you only need one Chief, and it’s always the Police Chief was going to be in charge of this public safety, and it always end up that Fire Department gets the hand-me-downs whether it be the police car that gets replaced and that goes to the Fire Chief for his new vehicle, or it’s the police boat gets swapped out for a new one and the old one goes to Fire Department. And they’re notorious for that. - 40 - VLS: So you’ve got some experience from the North East as it related to apparatus and facilities? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Absolutely. VLS: Do you, since you’ve been employed by the City of Naples Fire and Rescue Department, do you regularly ride on the apparatus or do you typically, is your transportation primarily by the vehicle assigned to you? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: It’s primarily the vehicle assigned by me. I have had the opportunity to drive the new rescue 2 before it went into service- we shuttled it back and forth to have work done on it, put equipment on it and everything, so I did have the pleasure of riding in something, driving something that was, is a real nice truck. VLS: In your employment with the Fire and Rescue Department, do you regularly visit the facilities? The fire houses? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Not on a regular basis. You know, when I get new staff I like to take them around and show them the facilities- where they are. But, you know, recently I, unfortunately avoid them. You know, the atmosphere is not conducive to unfortunately going around as, like I should. VLS: What do you mean by that? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well, there’s… it’s no secret. In my opinion, a lot of people did not like the fact that I got promoted to Fire Marshall. They refused to accept anything in my past, anything that I’ve done; that I’ve spent 31 years on the job, that I’ve been there done it, that I was a paramedic, that I worked in this fire prevention bureau doing inspections, existing inspections, moved over and did plan review and inspections, meeting a lot of people doing a lot of different things on both sides, having a clear understanding that anybody else that was- that had the position before- Larry, I mean I shouldn’t say before, but I mean Larry was, did existing inspections before he got promoted to the position. But I’ve done everything within the fire prevention bureau so I have a good understanding of what you know, the job entails and what the demands are of my employees because I’ve been there. But no, they fully do not accept that, they feel that one of them should have got the job and therefore- some of them haven’t (illegible), I mean I…they…uh, I knew this was always you know, going to be an issue. But, when the Chief promoted Phil then it became very hostile. VLS: That’s the recent hire of the Battalion Chief, Training Chief? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That is correct. And so then you know, it was clear that you know, City Council started getting involved and wanted to know who the Fire Marshall was and who this new guy was and Mr. Moss had to respond with an email in reference to myself and him so it is clear in mind that somebody in the Union is feeding people that our on the City Council or people that are associated with people that are on the City Council that I’m totally unqualified and Phil the new Training Battalion is totally unqualified and so forth and so on. So there is hostility, its borderline insubordination. - 41 - VLS: How has that- you’ve used the term hostility and insubordination. I interrupted you- and I really didn’t meant to. But how has that been demonstrated? In other words, do you have any examples of where you can cite where you’ve been met with hostility or insubordination? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well for myself and for my employees, there was a recent incident with one of my employees that was totally inappropriate. But, with me its subtle, I’ll try to… I really like to- if something is… for instance, Moorings Park is, I’m sure you’ve heard or are familiar with Moorings Park, it’s a housing facility that you kind of buy into and it- basically once you get into Moorings Park they take care of you all the way till your grave. And a lot of people are very interested in getting in there and they pay a lot of money to get into there and they’re expanding and one of the things that’s going on right now, that I dealt with last week, was they’re making some major improvements to their main campus up on Goodlet and they are doing some construction, removing some car ports in front of the buildings and some major work being done and that its being done on a dead end street. And it takes a lot of coordination with the builder to be able to do this work but still allow Fire Department access in there. We get a lot of rescue, EMS calls there, and we get a lot of those types of calls. Fewer than- few related fire calls but a lot of EMS related calls so we are going to be going there while they’re doing this construction for the next year. So they you know, they wanted to meet with me and figure out how we can make this work. So I had a meeting with the contractors that were involved and security and I felt it was important that to make sure that I got a hold of the battalion chiefs and tried to do a oneon-one with them. This particular day that I was available before I went on vacation last week, the Battalion Chiefs were off. There was an Acting Battalion Chief and another Lieutenant who fills the Acting Battalion Chief position a lot, it was Lt. Nadelman and he was working overtime that day and the other one who was acting that day was Lt. Pecar and I asked them both at their convenience, to meet me down there so we could go through the procedure of what I learned and what we’re going to be facing for the next year. So Lt. Pecar- again, who was acting, made the arrangements to have Lt. Nadelman go down there so all three of us could meet. So we get down there and you know, it’s typical, Nadelman gets out of the truck and you know just kind of looks around. And in fairness, he does work there part-time. His part-time job is to work security, but I asked him I said- Lt. are you, I know you work here… are you familiar with what’s going on here? No, nope haven’t been told anything. And I said ok, well that’s good then because you know, we can go over through this and so his guys are in the truck and you know, with the truck on and everything and I said Lt. you may want to have your guys you know, park the truck and get out so we can walk around together and because they’re going to be responding also- not necessarily with you, so you know, he eventually goes over to the truck and tells them to park it, and they get out. So, his crew, two of them- two crew members- and then we’ve got Jerry and Nadelman and uhVLS: Is this Pecar? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes, yeah. And a couple of people from security; supervisor, and head of security and so I’m trying to explain to them you know, what we - 42 - came up with for a plan and, Jerry for the most part acted professionally, Lt. Nadelman just- every time I would talk or- he’d over talk me you know, speak over me and talk to the security guys. Because he knew the security guys and say well what are we going to do about this over here...? So and so. And so they would respond and then if they left anything out – I would respond. And he’d ask another question and direct to them and so it was –this is, so this is a type of games that they are playing that basically I’m invisible and that you know, I do have the authority to make sure they or go there when I ask them too but they don’t have to be happy, they don’t have to talk to me or – so, it’s the little things like that and you know, ok. VLS: Did you do anything as a result of that? Did you report it to the Chief? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Oh- I tell the Chief what’s going on –he’s aware of it and you know, he’s basically- and Phil’s going through the same thing with individuals and were ok, you know- just going along with everything right now. VLS: Has anything that has happened, do you feel that it has interfered with your ability to perform your functions as Fire Marshall? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: No. No, they … no. VLS: It’s an attitude? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yeah, yeah. I mean, no. nothing that I can’t reason why I’m hesitating a little bit is because we had a trauma alert- a trauma alert is when there was EMS call and somebody was seriously hurt that –enough that they put out a trauma alert which means the helicopter comes and to a landing zone in the city so that they can get transported up to Lee Memorial to their trauma center. So, I went on one within the last couple of weeks, take some pictures – I was going to try to get Phil to come with me but he wasn’t in the building at that point. Just to kind of show him- where, being new, I would like to of taken him to show him this particular site- because I hadn’t been there for a trauma alert either. Usually, we go down to Fleshkin’s Park. But I get there and one of the Lieutenant that responded- I walked up to gate of the football field; that’s where we like to land helicopters- in a big football field…safe area and everything. And so again, mindful of my place, my position, I stood at the gate to the field that surrounds the football field/track and so immediately Lieutenant says “Fire Marshall you need to stand way back” and I say well “Why?” and he says “Well, you’re in a zone where you need to stand back” and I said “Well, that’s why I’m standing right here, I’m standing off the field I’m at the gate surrounded by fence..” “Oh, no no no. The wind when it comes in, will blow debris towards you.” And I said “Ok, ill move away if that’s the case.” But you know, he wouldn’t let it go and so when the helicopter did come in, I moved fully behind the fence just down a section and they unloaded the crew unloaded, and one of the crew members gave me a card- and said you know the pilot wants you to send him the pictures (laughs). And I said ok, I’ll send him some pictures when I get back to the office. And so they dealt with the patient, the ambulance arrived, they unloaded him and I took a couple of pictures that didn’t show the patient’s face and everything- I try to stay away from stuff like that. And then when they went out to the – back out to the - 43 - helicopter, just the two paramedics- flight paramedics, and at that point I went inside the gate probably shouldn’t of but it just kind of irritated me and I just went way down at the end of the field to take pictures at that point. So to make a long story short theyLieutenant Adamski, decided that he was going to send an email to the Training Chief that they thought I – didn’t name me specifically, but said that you know that there needs to be better procedures with this and you know, he – the person was well within the 200 ft. of the helicopter landing and so forth and so on. So, he is giving – and it just so happens he was one of the ones that wanted to become Fire Marshall. I don’t know if there’s a coincidence. VLS: Ok, very good. I want to move to the second point that’s in the Union’s letter and that is the allegation that the Department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage and intensity. And my question to you is do you believe that or have any/seen any evidence to suggest that the Chief has made misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage and intensity? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Absolutely not. VLS: Going to the third enumerated point in the letter from the Union; it states that the Chiefs misrepresentations, exaggerations and outright mendacity have created a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire-rescue personnel. As a result, the Chief has the lost the ability to effectively lead the City’s firefighters. First of all, are you aware of any misrepresentations, exaggerations and or outright mendacity- which there’s been some confusion on what that word means but we will, for purposes of my question assume that it means out-right lying. Are you aware of the Chief engaging in misrepresentations, exaggerations, or lying? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I do not. VLS: Ok, is there in your opinion a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s firerescue personnel? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I knew of none until this was written. VLS: Ok, so you were surprised to see the letter? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I was. VLS: Ok, and the situations that you’ve described in the past 10 minutes about situations where there’s been some hostility or – I think that was one of the words you’ve used, has that occurred since this letter was sent? Or were you experiencing that prior to the letter being sent? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: It was just a few- a couple individuals after I was promoted last December, I thought it was over with. There was occasionally incidences brought up- not to me, but to Tina that another individual that was interested in the job would say that oh he really wanted the job and I mean it was kind of – like when they - 44 - were doing an apparatus display at a pre-school, he managed to want to bring this up to her and you know, make that comment. But my working relationship with him outside of that has been – there hasn’t been any issues. So he… you know, he can’t let go of it but yet he has been very pleasant and cooperative with me. VLS: Ok and who is that individual? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That has been Lieutenant Zunzunegui. VLS: Ok. But generally speaking, the hostility that you’ve observed, has been primarily since this October 21 letter? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yes. VLS: Let’s go to the third point in the Union’s letter which is that the Chief’s – oh I’m sorry, we were on that. Any other comments you want to make about that particular allegation? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Well, the only thing else I can say about number 3 is the fire-rescue personnel had a perfect opportunity to voice their concerns when PSSI was here and go through the whole (illegible) of what are they are talking about here and they would of, I’m sure put it in the report and they did in fact put something in the report- I believe it was on…because we found that out later. It was on page 72- I think in the report there was made reference that the crews that when they sat down and talked to him in the stations, they were highly appreciative of what the Chief has been able to accomplish on their behalf and then all of the sudden, a few months later it’s altogether different. Interesting. VLS: Ok. The fourth point in the letter is the allegation that the Chief has attempted to influence and otherwise cause the Union to undermine some City objectives. Are you aware of any ways that the Chief has attempted to influence and otherwise cause the Union to undermined City objectives? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: I really don’t. VLS: Ok. Understanding that my directive, my instructions, my mission is to investigate the allegations that are/were raised in that letter, is there any further that we have not covered that you feel should be brought to my attention from your position as Fire Marshall? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: (pauses/silence) I don’t know if its proper at this point to say this, but just got to tell ya, I think that the Chief has been the best thing that’s ever had to this Fire Department. You know, and people can say oh, ok that’s the Chief’s friend talking. But you know, you look at the Chief’s career over in Fort Lauderdale- I mean he started out as a rookie (illegible) and he’s worked his way right up through the ranks in every position in that department up to Assistant Chief. And you know that’s quite an accomplishment because you know, you look at your military leaders- and you know, were a semi military type of organization. You know, the military leaders that - 45 - have gone up through the ranks are the ones that are really highly thought of because they’ve been at every single position. They know what it feels like, what the responsibilities are. And then you get promoted and then you learn that your span of control, your responsibilities grow each and every step and taking on new challenges and everything. And he went from every single one and then he comes here and sees that you know, it’s a great town- everything looks good, but the Fire Department, it’s got some issues. This is not something that he is used to. He is looking at something thatand clearly, myself feel the same way; this is something that – some of the basic needs of something I have been used to from day 1 of having a station alerting system that will alert you on calls instead of having to hold a radio married to your ear- because that’s how you get notified around here. I just find it amazing that they could put out something like this saying that the Chief has been basically the worst that they’ve ever seen or heard of or had here in the whole history of the Fire Department here. And he’s done so much that he didn’t have to do. The beatings that he’s been taking from certain city folks in the City here that he didn’t have to fight to get these better equipment, better gear. Clothing that you would wear in a fire that is your protection from- you know, this is stuff that he’s all fought for- making sure that every one of his people have a portable radio so that if they get in a fire and need to call for help – they’ve got a radio that’s notoh they didn’t have enough money to get a radio for everyone on the truck, just the officer needed a radio… no, he made sure that everybody has, so that everyone has a chance that if we get in trouble or they see one of their people get in trouble, they are able to make a call, a “May-day” call so that people can come and get them. I mean, you just- you wonder what has possessed these people to put something out like this and I know, but it’s …its terrible leadership. I’ve told the Chief many of times that the Chief that they have inside the Union here is absolutely terrible and the Union Leadership has sent them down a long road here and because of their own self-interest. And to make it all about them is just, outrageous and not for the better of everyone in that Union, they are just looking out trying to take care of themselves. You know, again, it’s wearing that hat as a Union official-Union President, for the command unit up in the City of South Portland, you know- I had, it was all about everybody. Not just me, it was about everybody but it appears…here that the belief is that you know, when you become Union President then that’s the next step. After that is to become Battalion Chief, it’s always been that way. So why not continue that? Terrible, terrible leadership on their part and it’s not just that… you know, when- up in… you know, being a Union Official, you also make sure that you give back to the people in town whether it be at Christmas time- taking care of a family in the town that is in need; that is something that we always did. There was always somebody in town that you could make sure that they got Christmas presents underneath the tree or they got a turkey and a basket at Thanksgiving time. And we always make sure of doing something like that – giving back, taking some of our Union treasury and giving back to some needy folks in town. These guys here? Nothing. Nothing. It’s disgraceful and again, it’s a total, total lack of leadership that I see and I’ve told the Chief many of time and that they’re being led- a lot of these guys, I don’t think have any idea or don’t really want to take this tactic but unfortunately they’re being bullied, their being pushed to think a certain way and again… - 46 - VLS: So you place it primarily on …your criticism is primarily with the Union leadership? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Yeah. And there’s very well some Battalion Chiefs involved in that also. They could have put a stop to this. There’s no question in my mind that they could have said hey, this is ridiculous you guys need to knock this off but no, they didn’t. And you know, they make this look like this has never been done in this City before- that they pick people from the outside. The Police Department has been doing it for a long time…since I’ve been here they’ve hired outside with Captains and this last round of promotions they have hired- promoted from within because there is quality, there’s talent there now and that’s what you want to see. You want to be able to make sure that these folks get the proper training and experience so that when you leave they can take over but it was recognized I’m sure, by people- prior to me, that the Police Department was a little shallow and they needed some depth and that’s why they went outside until they brought people up to that level and that’s desperately needs to be done here. Its…it reminds me of the good old boys club that is not… you know the military…got a lot of folks in my family that are involved in the military, my father and brother –in-law and my brother to certain extent- usually when they promote within the military they move them totally to a different ship, a different department or whatever because you get away from that boy’s club. You know, wow hey you remember when before you got promoted you were doing this and now you’re giving me hell- well that, when you do stuff like that it creates problems which is why the military is always careful about moving people around so they don’t get into that. Well here, you can’t do thatyou have to-there’s only three stations, you know, you can’t move people far enough away from that but you got to pick people that will stand up and go to that next level when they get promoted. That, you’ve taken on more responsibility, you’ve taken on more obligations. And you have got to enforce discipline, you’ve got to show leadership and- but here, they, they just don’t want to progress. My opinion is that they just, no we’ve always done it this way…you know, yeah you’ll get promoted but you know, you don’t discipline anybody…we’ll talk to them. Well give them a little note and say you know, you were bad but were not going to put any- nobody’s getting any days off or discipline and you can’t run an organization like that, you’ve got to have discipline. And you’ve got to have people willing to stand up and take their game to the next level. When you get promoted it’s different and they refuse in some instances to do that. I had some hopes for some people that I’ve been working with and you know, that really were working good with us and prevention but you know, unfortunately one of those guys took a major step back last week and its very, very unfortunate. VLS: So you think that one of the lightning rods with the Union that may have been a factor with this letter were issues concerning promotions and most recently, Battalion Chief Pennington? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: Absolutely. Absolutely, there is no question in my mind that you know, they, a few individuals just absolutely went berserk. That they thought they were going to be the chosen one, and I strongly feel that the Chief made the best decision in relation to what he had to do specifically what it kind of spelled out in PSSIthat we needed to spend more time with the EMS side- not that we haven’t, because - 47 - that was another thing that the Chief changed at the very beginning, that it wasn’t Naples Fire Department it was Naples Fire-Rescue Department. You know…Rescue being EMS and because it is a major portion of the job no matter where you are whether it be Maine, Fort Lauderdale, or Naples, Maine- Naples, Florida. EMS is going to be the major hitter of your services and you really do need to be the best. You can but again, you have devote a lot to the fire side because complacency in the fire service is another big problem. You know, I would have to get after my guys because complacency. It’s going on calls and oh it’s that place we’ve always been to with the same fire alarm goes off and you know, you don’t put on your pants you know because it’s a pain- you know, your bunker pants and everything, you know, and the next thing you know, you know you don’t put on your coat you know because it’s the same thing. Well, I told my guys that when we go out the door we are going to be ready to rock and roll when we get on the scene. And I said I don’t care what other people (illegible), because you know, we came from different stations. So again, the Lieutenant- some were soft- they wouldn’t get their people- got lax…they wouldn’t have their people get in the proper gear. Yeah, there was a couple of times where they had to play catch up. And we were ready to go, we were in the door you know, doing what we need to have to do and where were they? Back at the truck- getting their gear out of the locker, out of the cabinets and putting it on you know, in the middle of the street- looking like a bunch of …but, I..no, I really don’t think much of this. Not at all. VLS: Alright, well if there is anything further you want to bring to my attention- either something we missed today or something that transpires after this interview, but prior to completion of the inquiry, you have my card and I would encourage you to contact me by email if its documents- to send them by email, if there’s things that you want to bring to my attention that belong on the record than we can set it up through- I want to follow the same protocol throughout, so to the extent that something needs to be taped, we can arrange that, ok? FIRE MARSHALL ROGERS: That would be fine. VLS: And with that we’re going to turn off the recorder- it’s about 1:35. - 48 - RECORDED INTERVIEW OF KATHY CARRINGTON ON 12/03/15 VLS: Today is December 3rd 2015 & my name is Vicki Sproat, I’m an attorney with Henderson Franklin law firm in Fort Myers. I have been retained by the City of Naples to conduct an inquiry or investigation into allegations of misconduct on the part of Chief McInerny that those allegations were raised in the letter that the Union sent to Mr. Moss on October 21, 2015 and today we are in a conference room in the Human Resource office in City Hall and with me at my request is Kathy Carrington who I’ve asked to interview in connection with the inquiry. Ms. Carrington do you understand that I am going to record this interview? CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: Ok. And before getting started I’m going to make a couple of statements and that is that City Policy requires employees to be forthright, truthful and cooperative in providing information in connection with an inquiry of that this nature. Do you understand that? CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: And do you also understand that City Policy provides that it would be a violation of the City Policy for any employee to be retaliated against because they have either made a complaint or participated in an investigation or inquiry such as this. Do you understand that? CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: Ok and do also understand that if you believe you have been retaliated against for cooperating in this inquiry you should probably report that back to the Human Resource Department? CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: Ok. I just want to begin by asking you some very basic background questions. You work for the City of Naples? CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: And how long have you been employed? CARRINGTON: A little over 25 years. VLS: Ok. And what positions have you held? CARRINGTON: Police Records and Fire Admin. VLS: Ok. And what is your current positon? CARRINGTON: Fire Admin. -1- VLS: Ok. So, where do you go to work? What is the physical location? CARRINGTON: To the Fire Admin. VLS: Ok. Is that located on Riverside? CARRINGTON: 355 Riverside Circle. VLS: Ok. CARRINGTON: Building, A. VLS: Alright. And is that the same building where the police records was located also? CARRINGTON: No, that’s building B. (illegible) VLS: How long have you been Fire Admin? CARRINGTON: Since 1999. VLS: Ok, so what Chiefs have you worked under? CARRINGTON: Sheldon Reid, Jim McIvoy and Stephen McInerny. VLS: Ok and do you report directly to the Chief? CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: Are there any other members of administrative staff for the fire department that are located at Riverside Circle? CARRINGTON: The Battalion Chiefs, Fire Marshall, Fire Inspectors. VLS: Ok. And there’s currently how many Battalion chiefs? CARRINGTON: Four. VLS: That would include the new training Battalion Chief? CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: And there’s one Fire Marshall? CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: And how many Fire Inspectors? CARRINGTON: Three. VLS: Alright. And of course the Chief- his office is also located there? -2- CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: So I haven’t been over to your offices. Can you show me the lay out? Just kind of demonstrate/write it out for me. CARRINGTON: (Laughs) ok… VLS: What I’m looking for is where the different offices are located and where you sit. CARRINGTON: Ok. My door is here. VLS: I’m going to write door beside that-- if I look at it later. CARRINGTON: And my desk is right here. I’m not a very good artist. VLS: That’s fine. Ok. You put a “KC” by your desk. CARRINGTON: And there is over here there is a room and that’s the fire Marshall’s office, and then after his office (mumbles) and there’s a door and it goes into the Inspector’s office. And- that’s a door there. And then over here there (mumbles) and there’s is a little bit different. [illegible] VLS: I’m going to turn off the tape for just a minute for a quick break. *Ok were going back on the record, it’s about 1:27 and at my request you have drawn a kind of floor plan of the Fire Department main headquarters- what do you call this? CARRINGTON: Admin VLS: Admin ok. Now you’re in the same building as the police department right? CARRINGTON: Um, the actual officers? Yes. VLS: Ok. CARRINGTON: And building B is the big admin portion of it. VLS: Ok. Does the Fire Admin have a separate entrance and exist to the outside? As opposed to the Police Department? You’re in the same building? CARRINGTON: Yeah, there is an outside door probably almost half of this hall way because what it does is jots around and there’s a lunch room there. So yes there is one. VLS: Ok and on this whole diagram you prepared you put a KC for Kathy Carrington. Do you have an open desk? Or is it a cubicle- what does your work area look like? CARRINGTON: It’s an open desk. VLS: Ok. Do you act as reception if someone is coming into the admin/fire admin? -3- CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: Ok. And the Battalion Chief and the Chief McInerny and the Fire Marshall- they all have their own separate offices with doors? CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: OK. What hours do you work? VLS: What hours do you work? CARRINGTON: 7-4. VLS: Ok. And are there any other admin people that service this group? CARRINGTON: No. VLS: Ok. Tell me what your job duties are. CARRINGTON: I answer the phones, I do payment of bills, I do records and – I don’t know how to explain it. It’s when we get a records request, I have to put it in the system and copy the records, and file and take care of the training records, personnel records, I have to order any supplies as far as office supplies- and whatever else the Battalion Chiefs, or the Chief or Fire Marshall need me to do. VLS: Ok. Do you prepare any correspondence for the Chief? CARRINGTON: No. I’ll send him- hell say this person needs a letter to the state. Tell me what it is they need. And I’ll just type a routine so he knows that most of the time he hardly knows and I send it to him and he changes the wording to make it a little more professional. He uses terminology that I do not know and then he sends it back to me to mail it out to whoever it needs to go to. VLS: Do you prepare any emails for him? CARRINGTON: No. VLS: Ok. Alright. 119.071(3)(a) -4- 119.071(3)(a) VLS: Ok, alright. Were you aware that the Union had sent a letter to City Management? A Letter of no confidence in the Chief? CARRINGTON: You’re going to think this is funny, 760.50(5) saw it on the news. So other than that- no. I VLS: When did you return- I want you to assume the letter was sent around October 21, 2015, do you know when you returned to work? CARRINGTON: Um, I believe it was that Thursday, I think it was the day after – and I wasn’t even sure totally because you can’t believe everything that comes through the news that that’s what it was about or – I didn’t know if it was really true or not because that was the first I’ve seen the letter. VLS: And I’ve shown you the letter correct? Before we started the recording? CARRINGTON: Yes. -5- VLS: Did the Chief talk to you about the letter? CARRINGTON: No, he didn’t. VLS: When physical mail comes into the office- are there mailboxes for the different individuals? CARRINGTON: No, I’m the one that separates and gives to each of the departments- I mean each of the offices. VLS: Ok and how do you delivery it to them? CARRINGTON: Usually if they are not there I put it on their desk. VLS: Ok. CARRINGTON: I’m sorry, the Battalion Chiefs do have separate boxes. VLS: Ok where are their boxes located? CARRINGTON: One is right by the door and there is another – there’s a book case right before the door going into the bunkroom andVLS: Why did you put little o’s or plus signs by where the 3 mail boxes are or are there 4? CARRINGTON: No, I don’t get- um, there is no box for BC Pennington, but I do have a box outside for my purposes because he comes and goes – he’s not in my office so I don’t see him so I stick it up there it’s my box for him. VLS: Ok very good. Were you asked to place any documents in the Battalion Chiefs boxes after the letter was – CARRINGTON: No. VLS: Sent. Ok. CARRINGTON: In fact, nobody really talked to me about it. VLS: Alright were you asked to highlight anything in any documents? CARRINGTON: No. VLS: Ok. Who else places mail in the Battalion Chiefs boxes besides yourself? CARRINGTON: As far as I know it’s just myself and the Battalion Chief. VLS: Ok and the Chief if he was delivering mail to the Battalion Chiefs would he also have access to those boxes? -6- CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: You told me you were involved in public records request? CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: What is your involvement with public records request? CARRINGTON: The majority come through the phone to me. Now that we have (illegible) automative – I go ahead and take the information and what they need and I put it in the computer numbers assigned and then I complete the task. VLS: And do you do that under anyone’s supervision? CARRINGTON: I don’t complete the task until the Chief has approved it. VLS: And that’s true for all public records requests? CARRINGTON: Pretty much yeah. It didn’t use to be but it is now. VLS: Ok, was there a time that you did it without the Chief’s approval? CARRINGTON: Yes, probably started- I have the email somewhere. It probably started a year ago when he needed to make sure that the public – what it was – was more of interest than making sure – but an interest in finding out. VLS: Do you keep records of time spent in responding to public records requests? CARRINGTON: Yes VLS: And how do you keep those records? CARRINGTON: Actually, I’m a paper person so I have a book and I keep track of it. VLS: Ok. And do you still have that book? CARRINGTON: Yes VLS: Ok and how would you record what you’re doing in the book? CARRINGTON: I’m not sure what you mean by that. VLS: Ok- I mean, do you record amount of time spent on a task? CARRINGTON: Yeah if it’s more than 30 minutes I would definitely- I’ll tell you right now most of our stuff is just copies of incident reports and I’ll have them done in 15 minutes. VLS: Ok, and how much charged is for that? -7- CARRINGTON: Nothing under 15 minutes – I’m sorry nothing under $5.00, so- I do not charge because majority of our reports are 4-6 pages long and at .15 cents a page – or double sided are .20 cents- so it just doesn’tVLS: Ok, if you get a public records request that requires more than $5.00, or more than 30 minutes what do you do? CARRINGTON: Um, I usually will make sure I time it- I know ahead of time it’s going to take me you know, I would record the amount of time and then usually I have to figureI’ve only done this once, so- um, I figure against my pay and how much the person and the time I spent and how much then at that time I figure out how many pieces of paperand a lot of times if it’s a fire report itself, actually then 5 bucks- so then I do the math against my pay scale and I put it into FOIA and I figure everything out and then I make sure all the paperwork is put into the FOIA also and then it goes directly to the city’s (illegible) VLS: Ok when you say you put it into FOIA - and just for the record that’s F-O-I-A right? CARRINGTON: Yes VLS: What do you do to put it into FOIA? CARRINGTON: Everything is in the computer. Once a request comes in you have to go into what’s called “my FOIA” and what that does is it tells the requesters name, it could be email or phone number, address- if its (illegible) it doesn’t have to- they don’t have to give you anything if they don’t want to. And then – you have to let the City’s clerk’s office – it will automatically do it but then you have to email the City Clerk’s office and tell them that a report has been put in and the FOIA number its automatically given by the computer and then assign a number and then everything gets done that way. Once you complete the task- go back in the same system and say you’ve completed the task and how you’ve completed the task. VLS: Ok and that part is recorded on the computer? CARRINGTON: Yes VLS: And what program? MY FOIA? CARRINGTON: Yeah, that’s what it’s called. VLS: Ok- alright. If a person or entity requests public records where it’s clear it’s going to be more than the minimum- does the city bill in advance? CARRINGTON: I believe – like I said, I only think I’ve done this in all these years that I’ve been doing it – I believe that, that’s why I said everything is scanned and sent in to the FOIA and then the City Clerk’s office will take what I’ve told them my time, my pay -8- and they – if I understand this right- they tell the requester that this is how much it’s going to be VLS: Ok CARRINGTON: Before they release it. To make sure that this person really does want this. VLS: Yes. payment? But they’re the ones that take care of the invoices and receiving the CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: And when you say that it’s based on your pay… CARRINGTON: I’m the lowest paid [laughs]. VLS: Ok, so it’s based on your hourly rate? CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: And what is your hourly rate? CARRINGTON: [pause] I don’t know. VLS: Ok. CARRINGTON: I think its $24. I’m not sureVLS: That’s ok. You’ve said you’ve only been involved in one large records request? CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: And do you recall who it was that initiated that request? CARRINGTON: [pauses] I think it was lawyer- but I’m not 100% sure of it. I would have to go back and look at my written (illegible). VLS: I’m going to just show you a document that we’re going to mark- I’m going to mark your diagram as #1, I know this isn’t a scale but it does help give me an idea of the setup of your office and so I’m going to show you another document that is #2 and see if—take some time to look it over and see if you’ve seen it before. CARRINGTON: [pauses] I do recognize. [silence] VLS: And just let me know when you’re ready. CARRINGTON: [silence] -9- VLS: Ok – are you familiar with the public records request that is referenced in document number 2, which appears to be a request from City Councilman Doug Finlay? CARRINGTON: Yes VLS: Ok, were you involved in any way in the responding to that request? CARRINGTON: Responding? VLS: Responding or determining the amount of work that would be required to respond. CARRINGTON: I don’t remember because it went as far as I understood- it went from the Chief to the Battalion Chief who handles the RMS system and um, the ImageTrend and VisionAir, um, that all is not handled by me as far as being able to pull all the incidents up by like the incident numbers. VLS: Ok. This particular incident report apparently involved some fire boat responsesis that your understanding? CARRINGTON: That’s what it sounds like. VLS: Ok. Who is the Battalion Chief to whom that would have gone? CARRINGTON: Mike Nichols. VLS: Ok were you involved in any way in determining the amount of time involved or cost involved in that response? CARRINGTON: If I remember correctly, the Chief asked me how I would go about doing that if I had to pull all the reports- and I told him for each one of those reports I had to go on the computer, print them out and then make sure that I counted each pieces of paper and then I had to go in and redact anything that was any medical or personal information and of course I would have to put everything in order [mumbles]- I don’t know if I told him a certain time or I don’t remember if I told him I know it would probably take him no longer than the 15 or 20 minutes that I was thinking I would of spent on this other request. VLS: But you didn’t actually get involved in putting those together at all? CARRINGTON: I don’t think I was supposed to- but I did copy out the reports. Just wanted to make sure I had everything, but I was told I shouldn’t have done that – I should have waited, until it was actually approved my Mr. Finlay. VLS: Ok. Who told you to copy the reports or how did you get them to copy? CARRINGTON: Nobody to copy, I did this all on my own. As far as getting involved in it- my name is also listed on this- 10 - VLS: On the emails? CARRINGTON: On the emails. VLS: That is Exhibit #2. Did you end up copying all of the reports? CARRINGTON: I did and I did tell the Chief how long it took me and if we were going to charge him it would be my rate of pay um, times- the minutes it took…times – I know there’s another thing I have to do but I can’t remember—but it equals out to what was going to be a total amount. VLS: Do you recall what your minutes were for copying those reports? CARRINGTON: No. VLS: Would those be reflected in your book? CARRINGTON: I don’t know. Um, I don’t know. I know it was more than— VLS: Was it more than 5 hours? CARRINGTON: No. Not my portion. VLS: Ok and you said the records were under your supervision- how did you get the records to copy? CARRINGTON: Well Chief would have gone to Battalion Chief Nichols – and tell him ok you need to find (mumbles) boat incidents or marine incidents and he goes into the systems and he puts in these codes that when the guys are doing the calls or incident calls- they have a certain code; structure fire, boat incident, rescues- I don’t know all that stuff so he does, he works on those systems all the time. So he would have run all that stuff and then he would of probably I don’t know if he came back to the Chief or he came to me directly- I can’t remember. And then it came to me and that’s when I was supposed to be figuring out how much. VLS: Ok and you went ahead and copied them? CARRINGTON: Yeah- they DID NOT tell me to. I did do that on my own. VLS: Was the Chief upset about that? CARRINGTON: No. VLS: Ok. Were you told how long it took Battalion Chief Nichols or anyone in his department to pull those up? CARRINGTON: Um, when I was talking to the Battalion Chief-Battalion Chief Nicholsum, I said something about how many hours did you spend on it? Because I’m going to have to figure his- even though it’s at my rate of pay I still have to figure out how long it - 11 - took him. And… um, I can’t remember…I know that it took him a long time. Specifically- I know I wouldn’t of written that in my book either. VLS: Ok. You saw in the email too that Exhibit #2 which I showed you, that in an email dated October 21, 2014 Chief McInerny sent an email indicating it would take about 6 minutes to locate each incident, print and staple the report- review it for possible redaction and deliver them to City Hall, it’s about 12 hours of work involving three (3) people in perhaps on an average of 4 or 5 pages per incident of 484-605 total pages. Do you know whether that is an accurate assessment? CARRINGTON: I would say yes, and as far as my portion of it- because he probably asked me how many minutes does it take you to go into the incident, back out- copy it, put it together, redact it if you needed to… so my portion I would say it’s pretty on the money. VLS: Ok. Was there any discussion in your present of whose rate the Public Records’ Requestor would be charged? CARRINGTON: I don’t know if it was at that time- but there was a time I don’t think it was the one from Mr. Finlay, I think there was another time that we had to do something for somebody else- and at that time because the Fire Marshall and the Chief had put in at least an hour of each of their times, the Chief felt that we needed to charge his rate of pay for an hour and the Fire Marshall’s rate of um, four hours. And I said we couldn’t do that. So I did contact the Clerk’s office to confirm that and I did confirm that. VLS: So- are you aware… did the invoice in fact go out at your rate of pay? CARRINGTON: (illegible) VLS: Ok. CARRINGTON: I would say that he wasn’t happy about it. VLS: But he didn’t tell you not to do it? CARRINGTON: Exactly. VLS: Ok. Are you involved with media relations? CARRINGTON: Not really because the PIO is the Chief. VLS: “PIO” being Public Information Officer? CARRINGTON: Correct. Somebody calls from the news and the Chief is at (illegible) structure fire- all I can tell them is they are at a structure fire and that’s as far as I go. VLS: Ok. Are you involved in any communications by phone, by text or by email to Council members? - 12 - CARRINGTON: No. VLS: Are you aware that an outside organization called PSSI came to do a study of the fire department? CARRINGTON: I was aware, yes. VLS: Ok, did they interview you? CARRINGTON: No. VLS: Were you involved in providing any information to PSSI? CARRINGTON: No. VLS: Ok. I know this is a difficult to answer but could you describe the working environment in the fire admin under Chief McInerny? CARRINGTON: Stressful. More times than not because I think he’s a perfectionist and he wants things like he wants things. Like his way. VLS: Alright, has he used foul or abusive language in the work place toward you as a staff member? CARRINGTON: Towards me? VLS: Yes. CARRINGTON: He has yelled at me a couple times. (illegible) but I happen to belike I said, I’m the person that is there 8 hours a day, um I don’t know if it’s out of frustration or what. But yes, he has yelled at me a couple of times. (Illegible) that somebody in another office heard word for word and unfortunately she is no longer working at the fire department. VLS: Was that a single incident? CARRINGTON: That was one incident and I don’t really remember what started, I know there was some sort of – something that didn’t, something that was said, didn’t go right and he for whatever reason said – he said something like you don’t – you don’t .. what’s the word that means I should be there supporting him- and um, I told him you don’t understand that I do support you in many ways that you don’t realize. Oh he said“you don’t have my back” that’s what he said “you don’t have my back”. VLS: And it was very loud? CARRINGTON: Oh – oh yeah. It was almost embarrassing loud… so. VLS: And that happened on more than one occasion? - 13 - CARRINGTON: Where his voice got raised- there was another occasion- and again, I don’t know exactly what started it but again it was one of those things where he thought I should have done something or handled something in a certain way and I was totally not aware of what I should have been doing or why I did it – and it wasn’t explained, he didn’t explain what happened so. VLS: Has the Chief ever suggested or asked that you provide inaccurate information to any third party that you’re aware of? CARRINGTON: To me? VLS: Yes. Has he ever asked or requested that on his behalf you provide? CARRINGTON: Not for me. VLS: Have you heard him make that request of others in admin? CARRINGTON: The wording I would hear was “Can’t you plump it up?” “Make it look more like it is –probably is or could be”. VLS: Was that in an email, a text or in conversation? CARRINGTON: Verbal. VLS: Ok and who have you heard him say that to? CARRINGTON: Fire Marshall and I believe at least one of the Battalion Chiefs. VLS: Ok. Do you recall the circumstances – what he was referring to when he said “Can’t you plump it up?” CARRINGTON: One time was a house fire and it was a multimillion dollar home. The other was a boat fire- again, quite an expensive type of a boat. I know there is one other time but I don’t remember or recall what it was regarding. So I’m not sure exactly if he was looking at it because I know he asked to be fair to him- he did ask how much the Fire Marshall felt and the Fire Marshall said I am not sure, but this is my estimate and the Chief goes “Well you know if you think it can be more- plump it up to that.” VLS: Do you know whether the Fire Marshall made any change in the report as a result of the Chiefs- or reflected what the Chief suggested in his report? CARRINGTON: I think personally he did, but I don’t see the report until its completed so I don’t know what the cost is until afterwards- so he could of plumped it or used the same cost (illegible) VLS: Other than those three occasions that you’ve mentioned-one that the Fire Marshall and the house fire and I believe you also mentioned the boat fire. Maybe there were only two incidents. - 14 - CARRINGTON: Two. VLS: Do you recall any other situations where you overheard the Chief suggesting to someone in Fire Admin that they provide exaggerated or false information? CARRINGTON: I have heard him tell at least one Battalion Chief that this code – (illegible) #300 means this type of fire – but we still have brush fires, it could be boat fires, home, you know house fires, then you got brush fire and then you got stove firegroup them together. I don’t know what the difference is that they are actually for- or if he’s doing it to…and that’s what it seemed like to me- he wants it look, he wants the figures to look higher than they really were. VLS: Ok, and what Battalion Chief? CARRINGTON: I believe it was Battalion Chief Mike Nichols. VLS: Ok. Has the Chief ever asked you to delete any information on the computer? CARRINGTON: On the computer? VLS: Yes. CARRINGTON: No. VLS: Has the Chief ever asked you to throw away or destroy any documents? CARRINGTON: No. I do purging but it’s usually half-finished, um... VLS: Nothing is considered inappropriate. That’s what I meant. CARRINGTON: He’s never given me anything. VLS: Alright. Do you have an opportunity to oversee, or to observe the Chief interact with the Battalion Chiefs? CARRINGTON: Oh yeah. VLS: And how would you describe that working relationship? CARRINGTON: Stressful. VLS: In the same ways that you’ve described it as being stressful for you? CARRINGTON: Yes, and I think he’s a little more …people have personalities-some are overbearing and, um, they just don’t know how to nicely say go and sit down- they go “take a seat” or something, and he is sometimes overbearing. He’ll come in and the Battalion Chiefs- they’re good guys, they take care of a lot of stuff that normally a Chief would take care of. But everyone knows how to be one of those that uses their - 15 - supportants to help them out- but he gets really upset if it’s not the way he wants it so he’s very verbal sometimes. VLS: Ok I am going to show you this letter of October 21, 2015 and I know that you’ve told me that today is the first day that you’ve seen it. I know you didn’t have anything to do with authoring it. Nonetheless I’m going to show it to you and I want to ask you about the four points that are numbered in that letter. And simply ask you as to each one- and we will start with the first. We will start with the first. Are you aware of any information that would support an allegation that the Chief has misled the community and city staff by creating the misimpression of need where they do not exist with regard to apparatus and facilities? CARRINGTON: Because I’m not really part of that- um, there are times where I wondered why he did or said something, but to me I don’t know very much about it so if he told me this is red and I was ok I didn’t know anything about it being red, that’s fine. I don’t know if it was misleading or not on some of the stuff he had the BCs do, or the Fire Marshalls do- I don’t know. VLS: Ok. As to point 2, are you aware of any information that would support an allegation that department’s integrity is in question due to the Chief’s misrepresentations and exaggerations with respect to fire calls, damage, and intensity? CARRINGTON: (laughs) He does like to put things out to the news, he... I don’t know about misrepren – I can’t say that word right... (Laughs). Um, but I know that he has exaggerated but on fire calls, damage and intensity because to me, I took it -to me that at least a portion of it that, fire safety. But here’s the other but– I really don’t know if he meant to misrepresent or exaggerate. VLS: Ok. Is there any particular circumstance that comes to mind with respect to that? CARRINGTON: Um, well- uh at least one of the fires where a young man died. That just seemed to me kind of sort of exaggerated on some stuff and then on other things, it was a complete he just – ok this is the way it is but then there are other parts that he did exaggerate a little bit. I couldn’t give you specifics. VLS: Ok, where (illegible) CARRINGTON: (illegible) VLS: I’m going to take you now to third point. Are you aware of any facts that would support that the Chief’s misrepresentations, exaggerations and outright mendacity (which I am told means lying) – have created a lack of trust between the Chief and the City’s fire rescue personnel, are you aware of any information that would tend to support that? CARRINGTON: Well I can tell you that he has had a couple of positions open in fireand the information he gave some of the firefighters was that this person is, does have the capability of doing the job and has all the certificates to do the job, and it turns out - 16 - that’s not quite true. And I know that a couple of guys who really wanted a position didn’t get it and they had a lot more time and definitely schooling. VLS: Is that position for Battalion Chief training? CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: And that was recently vacated position? CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: And what involvement if any, did you have with that process? CARRINGTON: Not a thing. Not a thing, and I overheard people talking about- well see I have to get all the certificates and I have to have them in their personal file- I mean, training files and at that time I was not given anything. But I do know- because I also do the setting up of all the travel… that Training Chief had to go to a couple of places to get certain certificates to make sure that his position was um, what was required of the position was taken care of. VLS: And this was Chief Pennington? CARRINGTON: Uh huh. VLS: Ok, do you know what additional training he attended that you arranged for travel? CARRINGTON: The most recent one was the training in Ocala- the State Fire College, and I believe someone told me that the training had to be so he could be a Battalion Chief. VLS: Ok, and are you aware of any other training or required that Chief Pennington got after becoming a Battalion. CARRINGTON: See I only take care of the ones that travel is involved- but, I mean I could go back and look but I don’t remember any one instance – he’s gone to seminars but that’s not equivalent. VLS: Does the City pay the travel expenses? CARRINGTON: Most of the time, yes. VLS: What documents would generate relating to the travel of the Battalion Chief? CARRINGTON: I do a travel form. I have to have something that shows that there is registration at the hotels. In this case he didn’t have a hotel, they paid for dormitory. What the food was going to cost, what the gas was going to cost, any tolls, in this case I don’t think he had to have a city vehicle, and travel by plane... This case I don’t remember. - 17 - VLS: Do you know how long that trip was to the State Fire College? CARRINGTON: A week. VLS: And that travel took place as far as you know? CARRINGTON: Oh yeah. He turned in his receipts. VLS: Any other circumstances related to promotions or new positions? CARRINGTON: Well, now the other one I’m not sure- and I didn’t think it was actually – the person wasn’t really set for and that was the inspector’s public ad person. VLS: What is the name of the person that took that position? CARRINGTON: Tina Bowling. She has background in police and she does well on the computer but as far as I know everything that she has gotten…she went to (pauses)… to Virginia- to... There’s a Fire College up there too- for training. I know she’s gone to Ocala, she’s had few training/travel. VLS: Ok. So you know this because you’re the one that has to do the travel expenses? CARRINGTON: In the county – which we don’t travel for, it’s all within county of Naples area and I know she’s gone to a couple of places. VLS: Ok. Any other people? CARRINGTON: No, now the Fire Marshall- (illegible). Now I don’t know very much about what he did before. Somebody did say he had been in fire years ago, so he had the background. And then he has his most updated certificates that I can see- but I can’t go back to get one because he had let it lapsed (illegible) and he had to go to school to become an investigator- a fire investigator. VLS: Do you know where that schooling took place? CARRINGTON: I don’t remember, I’m thinking Ocala again. VLS: And that occurred after he – CARRINGTON: Already had the position. Yes. VLS: And that is Fire Marshall… CARRINGTON: Bob Rogers. VLS: Ok. Did you receive- I understand there were several internal candidates for the Battalion Chief training position. Were you involved in sending out any email regarding accepting the letters of intent? - 18 - CARRINGTON: No. VLS: Were you involved in receiving any applications or letters of interest from those internal candidates? CARRINGTON: No, everything went through the Battalion Chiefs and then directly to the Chief. I just saw the faces as they walked in. VLS: Alright. Does the Chief have you sit in on any meetings? CARRINGTON: No. VLS: And do most of his meetings occur behind closed doors? CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: Ok. CARRINGTON: I am – he is a different Chief. The first two I was the secretary and they would make sure I knew about certain incidents- they didn’t tell me everything and that’s their right and I didn’t expect it. But since Chief McInerny came on, I’m just not included in everything. If I don’t hear it passing—(illegible) VLS: Do you know when the position was offered to Phil Pennington? CARRINGTON: No, because I only heard. I don’t know that everything was behind closed doors and then all the sudden, he was there. VLS: But you weren’t involved in that process? Ok. CARRINGTON: Are there any other questions for me? I’m not very helpful. VLS: Were involved in providing any information in response to PSSI issuing their report? CARRINGTON: No. I pretty much had nothing to do with it. VLS: Ok. Understanding that the mission I’ve been tasked with is to look into the allegations raised in the Union’s letter, is there anything else that you have (illegible) that I should know about? CARRINGTON: I noticed how you asked about how we- if he had any instances where he yelled at me? VLS: Yes. CARRINGTON: I know about the Battalion Chiefs – there were a couple of times where he yelled at them. And one of the times, I believe it was BC Nichols- he did, he - 19 - threatened his job. His said “If this is not handle this way, or if it doesn’t get handled then I guess we are just going to take- you know have you... VLS: And what was that about? CARRINGTON: Again, I’m not (illegible) everything, but he was in with the Chief explaining about a situation, I believe it was with Lieutenant Howard. Family, some family thing- and I heard the Chief pretty much threaten his job. I don’t know if it didn’t work out or did- I didn’t hear all of the terminology, but I heard him say “Then I guess that’s your job.” VLS: Do you know what he was asking Lt. Nichols to do? CARRINGTON: I really don’t know. I thought- my perspective is that BC Nichols went into the office to tell him what was going on but I don’t know beyond that because again, everything (illegible). That’s when I heard the Chief raise his voice and say “Well let’s just hope its handled that way or goes that way otherwise it’s your job.” VLS: You could hear that over the closed door? Or that was with the door open? CARRINGTON: That was the door open. But see they go in there to tell him how things are progressing on something- the door doesn’t get closed. VLS: I see. CARRINGTON: But if they are going in there and there are things that they don’t want anybody to hear- not just necessarily me, or don’t want anyone to be interrupting themthen the door closes. VLS: Ok. Anything else? CARRINGTON: No. VLS: Ok, I’ve given you my business card and if there’s something you want to tell me or you have a question for me feel free to contact me, and we are going to conclude your interview- it’s about 2:30. - 20 - RECORDED INTERVIEW OF KATHY CARRINGTON ON 12/08/15 VLS: Today is December 8, 2015, and I have asked Kathy Carrington to return as a follow-up to an interview she gave me the other day because there is one area that we didn’t really cover and you understand when we met before Ms. Carrington I explained that I am going to be taking this and you understand what your responsibilities to be truthful and upfront. CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: And you also understand that it is against City policy for there to be retaliation for your participating in this process. CARRINGTON: Yes. VLS: What I wanted to ask you about is in your role as an Administrative Specialist for Naples Fire & Rescue Division what are your job responsibilities as it relates to processing requests for personnel to attend educational or leadership functions and then getting reimbursement, if it is due. CARRINGTON: Once I receive it, I look through the paperwork and make sure that what is needed to go either to the State or once completed the classes go to Finance. That the paperwork was completed and sent to the Chief for his signature. VLS: How do you send it to the Chief for his signature? CARRINGTON: I have a signature file I call it and I put it inside as an envelope. I put it in the envelope and I give it to him. VLS: Is this something that occurs frequently with members of the Fire and Rescue Department as far as seeking, pursuing educational certifications or attending seminars. CARRINGTON: Seminars. VLS: Seminars. CARRINGTON: I mean it is not daily, but at least weekly I get at least one request that comes across my desk. VLS: And are you, how quickly do you go through your, do you process the information in general? CARRINGTON: I check it out and I put it right in the Chief’s office. VLS: And how is, is there a general time frame for, do you know what the Chief is supposed to do with that paperwork? What the next step is? CARRINGTON: From what I understand, he takes a look at it; he checks any of the financial (illegible), checks sometimes with their Battalion Chief’s or Lieutenant’s to -1- make sure that this is something that they feel is acceptable to, that could help them in their position, and then normally he will again check the financial portion and sign it and send it out. VLS: Now is there some amount of money that is set aside for personnel and you don’t need to know the amount, but do they get reimbursement? They get reimbursement funds for some these courses or seminars? CARRINGTON: Most of the time it is educational college funds. VLS: Okay. CARRINGTON: The seminars are I am sure there is money in there that account for that, but I think the educational, the higher educational ones, are the ones that they look for because it is in the file. VLS: So they, the City would not pay those fees in advance the Firefighter or the personnel would advance those funds and then get reimbursed? CARRINGTON: I believe they do it that way because they want to make sure they finish the course. VLS: I see. Is there a usual timeframe within which you get the paperwork back from the Chief? CARRINGTON: I, usually if he is able to, he will get it back to me within a couple of days. It’s been in the past, it usually takes anywhere from 7 to 10 days to get it back, and again I don’t know what he’s got going on at the same time, but there is a turnover time. VLS: Is that with every request? CARRINGTON: Pretty much. VLS: That there is a 7 to 10 day delay. CARRINGTON: Yeah. VLS: Have there been situations where there has been a longer delay in getting reimbursement? CARRINGTON: Um, there has been. I am not sure exactly when and where and what time, but that being said they were going through contract negotiations and there might have been some delay because they were waiting to see how much is going to be put in the fund. VLS: Was there any particular, do you remember any particular individual where there was an unusual delay during the contract period? -2- CARRINGTON: Well, I don’t think what this gentleman wanted to do, might not have been covered by the contract, but yes there was one Firefighter that put in a few requests and they sat there for a while. One had to be cancelled and the other one, I believe, he got it in on time. VLS: Who was that individual? CARRINGTON: Firefighter Kofsky, Driver/Engineer. VLS: So do the, and did Firefighter Kofsky contact you to check on the delay? CARRINGTON: He actually did chain of command at least a couple of times I know of. He did ask me once when he was in the office to see his (illegible) sheet, but usually it goes through chain of command and I go in and check the file if it is still in there (illegible). VLS: Okay, do you know how long that particular with him, how long his requests were, it took for the Chief to get that? CARRINGTON: This has been within the last five years, but there has been a couple of times where it’s taken over 10 days. VLS: Anything else that you do in connection with processing requests for approval of attendance at educational functions or certifications or seminars or in the reimbursement process? CARRINGTON: As an example, I just had one gentleman who wants to go to a seminar next month, and he did not have the right paperwork. So I e-mailed him, he sent it to me, it’s not, I got it yesterday and it’s now sitting in the Chief’s box waiting for his approval, but usually if everything is there it goes directly from the supervisor to me to the Chief. And do I expect him to get back today, no. He’s working on some other stuff. So, but I’m hoping by the end of the week that I’ll have it back. VLS: Very good. I think that is the only thing that I really needed to clear up was that aspect of your job. So I thank you for coming back in. So we are going to conclude this continuation of Kathy Carrington’s interview and it is about 12:25 p.m. -3- RECORDED INTERVIEW OF RANDY BILLS ON 12/15/15 VLS: Ok, today is December 15, 2015 and my name is Vicki Sprout, I’m with the law firm of Henderson Franklin which is in Fort Myers and I have been retained by the City of Naples to conduct an inquiry or investigation into allegations of misconduct on the part of Fire Chief Steve McInery as alleged in a letter by Local 2174 to Bill Moss on October 21, 2015. Have you ever seen that letter? BILLS: Maybe, I’m not sure but that’s fine. VLS: Ok, we are in a conference room in the Human Resource Department at City Hall and with me is Randy Bills who I have asked to interview in connection with the inquiry. Mr. Bills do you understand that I am going to record this interview? BILLS: Yes. VLS: And before getting started, I would like to make several statements. City policy requires employees to be forth right truthful and cooperative in providing information in connection with an inquiry or investigation. Do you understand that? BILLS: I sure do. VLS: And do you understand that City policy also provides- or prohibits rather, retaliation against an employee who makes a complaint or participates in an investigation or inquiry by giving an interview? BILLS: I understand that. VLS: Also, do you understand that if you feel that you’ve been subjected to any retaliation because of your involvement in this process that you should notify the Human Resource Department? BILLS: Absolutely. VLS: Ok. With that in mind we we’ll get down to business. Do you want to state your full name? BILLS: Randy __ Bills VLS: And you work for the City of Naples? BILLS: I work for the City of Naples, I am the equipment coordinator for the fleet manager or equipment services division of utilities. VLS: And to whom do you report? BILLS: I report directly to Buddy Bennett who reports to Bob Middleton the Utilities’ Director. -1- VLS: Ok, and how long have you been the equipment coordinator for fleet management? BILLS: 22 years. I think its 23 years now with the City. VLS: So 22 years in the position that currently hold? BILLS: Correct. VLS: Ok, so tell me what you do as equipment coordinator for fleet management? BILLS: I assign work to my mechanics on the floor, I assist in purchasing, I run some of our proprietary computer software systems and sort of other tasks- (illegible) and just a lot. Anything to do with equipment and then a little bit more…so. VLS: Where do you report to work? What is the physical location? BILLS: 370 Riverside Circle, Naples, 34102. VLS: And what is- where is your office or workplace located on Riverside Circle? Is it a garage? BILLS: Yes- it’s a facility in and of itself. VLS: What do call it? BILLS: Equipment Services. Department. We’re right across the street from the Police VLS: Ok. So, does fleet management perform services for the Naples Fire and Rescue Department? BILLS: Yes. VLS: Do you— BILLS: And the airport. VLS: Ok. And you perform both mechanically work for their equipment and purchasing- assistant purchasing of their equipment? BILLS: The diagnostics and repair of their equipment- which includes maintenance obviously, and then purchasing as far as large vehicles are concerned, and sometimes just the person that kind of bounce stuff off when they’ve got a question about something- they might want to order for a truck or for something that is after the fact. VLS: Ok. In terms of the type of equipment that you diagnose and repair, is it strictly vehicular equipment? -2- BILLS: No, no. its saws, chain saws, pipe saws- which we call them pipe saws but they are emergency saws that we use to cut people out of a vehicle – (illegible), repairing the motors and hydraulic systems on those…anything we can do that’s mechanical kind of helps them out. Otherwise what I do, is I’ll coordinate the repair with a third party vendor, and then we want to make sure the stuff rotates in quickly- so that they have everything that they need to work with. VLS: Does the fleet management – do you keep records of repair? BILLS: Absolutely. VLS: And you also keep records of purchase? BILLS: Yes, we have something between like- well, between the two systems, the (illegible) is rather new, and unfortunately not really adapted to what we do. But we’ve been asked to use it- which were trying to do. The older system we have were maintain for historical records, if I’m not mistaken NFPA requires that we maintain those records for 20 years. VLS: What was the previous system called? BILLS: CCG Faster. VLS: As in C – C – G - and the word “faster”? BILLS: Right. And it’s known as just “faster”. VLS: Does the type of equipment that you diagnose/maintain include boats? BILLS: Yes. VLS: Ok. BILLS: Now we don’t actually do the boat repair or the motorcycle repair that the police department has. But we coordinate that with third party vendor that we pick through a bid process. VLS: Ok. Is your fleet management department involved in the acquisition of boats for the Fire Department? BILLS: I would say normally we… should be - we were not consulted. VLS: Ok and are you referring a fairly recent acquisition of a fire boat? BILLS: Yes, the newest boat that they just purchased. VLS: Have you been involved- even with the City with your current position for over 22 years, have you been involved in the past in the acquisition of boats or marine equipment for Naples Fire and Rescue and/or the Police Department? -3- BILLS: Police Department – yes. Naples Fire was always kind of, for many years was kind of the step child of the Police Department and I’m going back maybe 10 years ago. VLS: Ok. BILLS: Since it’s changed, obviously. But they would get the- because I have the role of which they saw was the role of the Fire Department on the water was kind of a diminished role, wasn’t really something that needed to be – that they needed to be concerned about, so the Fire Department would get the hand me down police boats. And that would have been 2001, so the last boat they had before the one they just got was a 2011 police boat that would had been up fitted to hold a fire (illegible). VLS: Ok. Now was your department involved in maintaining that 2001 Police boat after it was transferred to the Fire DepartmentBILLS: Absolutely. VLS: Can you give me the specifications of the 2001 Police Boat? I mean, what manufacturer? BILLS: I believe it was a 23 foot—and I can’t think of the name of the – I’d have to get that to you. VLS: Ok. What was done with that Police boat after it was taken out of service? BILLS: It was auctioned. VLS: And do you know when it was auctioned? BILLS: Not off the top of my head, but it would have been … a year ago? Something like that. It was unsafe to keep in service any longer. We had a marine- I can’t think of what she’s called; a marine specialist that came out and tested the integrity of (illegible) and one thing or another and it just was not safe to keep in service so we took it out of the water. VLS: When was that determination made? BILLS: Sometime just prior to the auction- so. VLS: Ok. Was it in service up to that point and time? BILLS: Yes. VLS: Ok, and your department actually did the service on the boat? BILLS: No, we coordinated the service with a marina. VLS: Ok, were you- was your department, you said you were not involved, however in the acquisition of the new fire boat? -4- BILLS: Correct. VLS: Have you been involved? Has your department been involved in a servicing or equipping of the new boat? BILLS: Actually, nothing other than maintenance that would be required, and I’m not sure if we’ve even had it in for its first maintenance check yet. VLS: Ok, do you know… can you describe the new boat that the Fire Department acquired? BILLS: It’s a Twin Engine, I believe that would be 250’s, 250 horse power mercury’s, twin engine and I believe its Brinsworth Hall, that is really- its purpose built. So it has an access door in the (illegible) where you can pull somebody out of the water easily, it has an area to put someone on a back board…it really is purpose built so it’s kind of made for that kind of sea rescue type stuff. VLS: Ok, your department- would you have expected your department to be involved in the acquisition process of that? BILLS: Well there is a policy- I can’t …its G-23 maybe? I forget, but that policy deals with equipment and it says that basically, departments need to go through us before they purchase anything. And it’s just so that we are on board also with what they’re doing because sometimes, I know we’ve had a department buy a piece of equipment from England. And there is US made equipment that is very similar, and that we can actually get parts for. Whereas the one from England- it was just a bare. We had one (illegible) from Scotland also like. So to kind of coordinate those efforts and let’s have a little bit of a say. We don’t necessarily try and tell them what they need to buy, although do we make suggestions that I feel are very helpful to the departments as far as equipment goes, it’s something sometimes they don’t know a lot about and that we seem to have a little bit better hand on. VLS: Was prior to the current twin engine, Brunswick being purchased, are you aware of whether there were discussions within the City or before Council as to what type of boat should be purchased for the Fire Department? BILLS: Yes there were. VLS: Ok. BILLS: I didn’t follow it closely, but I believe the original vessel they wanted was somewhere (illegible) a quarter of a million dollars, which would have been maybe three years ago. I don’t know more much more than that, other than it was very expensive and I know that the Chief had talked about fighting fires from the water for homes that are on the water’s edge- you know, the high pressure, I would imagine high pressure fire pump had come into play, that type of thing although I don’t think they have ever had to fight a fire from the water- but. -5- VLS: Ok, was your department, to your knowledge, ever consulted on that particular vessel that was being requested? BILLS: No. VLS: Ok. And who would you normally- how would you normally expect to be consulted? Is thereBILLS: We actually have a very good working relationship with the department, the Battalion Chiefs- some of them I’ve known from that full 22 years here- or 23 years. So we have a good working relationship, we actually have had sort of – had bought fire trucks and specked out fire trucks- which is something else that I do- did, I should say for the department to help them along with as far as… again, back to equipment requirements, horsepower vs. transmission type and style…manufacture’s on specific firefighting equipment, what we can get parts for easiest, what’s represented locally, you know- where do we get the best bang for our buck, all that kind of stuff because that does actually come through our department and that’s something that they’re often not aware of. VLS: How does that come through your department? BILLS: It would all come through the department through the Battalion Chiefs. VLS: And is there a particular Battalion Chief that within the past 5 years you have dealt with primarily as it relates to acquisition of equipment? BILLS: Probably Pete DiMaria would be the one that generally when there’s something that they would like to purchase, he is usually on the phone or in my office and we talk about it and we try to come up with something that works. VLS: Ok, and is there any paperwork that is generated in the process of the fleet management giving advice or recommendations BILLS: No. As far as a boat goes, as far as I know of- there is zero. As far as specifications for a bid process for a piece of fire apparatus? Yes. Usually what I pull out is a full bid package, but again, that is (illegible) with the fire department. We go over the specifications together, we sometimes argue points that we come to a – easily, actually, come to a common (illegible) and we move ahead with the purchases. VLS: Ok, and who would you typically be arguing points with? BILLS: Pete or one of the other Battalion Chiefs. It’s like, you know, as far as I’m concerned it’s like any setting. You get one point of view from one person, you might get another point of view from another person. I could kind of give you an example if that helps? VLS: Sure. -6- BILLS: Ok, we were looking for one- a new rescue truck. Our old rescue truck was a King Cab which meant it had front and rear seats and three compartments. And the only thing that ever went in that back seat was the bumper gear the firemen used. My argument was that I could get rid of that, have a conventional cab, put four (4) compartments- larges compartments into the same truck, have ample room for the bumper gear on one side so it would be quick to access along with- they always carry certain axes and certain things when they first penetrate a building. So we would have that equipment readily available on one side, one area and then the rest of it would be whatever they wanted, you know… and that was kind of the discussion and I know that the Chief wanted to stay with that- that type of truck. And the story goes, and I don’t know how true this is, but it sounds like my ex-wife. Um, he went to a convention – or to a fire show and somebody asked him there while he was talking about rescues, why he would want a King Cab as to getting a conventional cab with four (4) compartments. And all the sudden it was hey this was a great idea, let’s get a conventional cab with four compartments. VLS: Ok, so eventually... BILLS: Eventually, even the Chief, the Chief came in. But back to the original point, the guys- some of the guys had thoughts about well where am I going to put my equipment? How’s it going to be stored? One and another I think generally across the Battalion Chiefs, the consensus was yeah, this will work really good for us. VLS: Ok. And when was the rescue truck specked? BILLS: The original specked had to have been two years ago or more. That I put out. And at that point, I was taken out of the system. VLS: What do you mean? BILLS: Well, I was taken out of the conversation. I guess, because I still have an excellent working relationship with Pete, but my understanding is the Chief didn’t want my input. VLS: Where did you get that information that the Chief- how did you develop the understanding that the Chief did not want your input? BILLS: Kind of through Pete in saying that – well the Chief’s got his own ideas and you know, going through me basically just causes problems- you know, for the BCs. He doesn’t want to hear what we want, he has his own ideas about what he wants and that’s kind of the direction that he’s going to take. VLS: Ok, so you didn’t have communications directly with the Chief as it had to do- as it related to that? BILLS: No, I would say generally even when we would send emails on one thing or another I would rarely get a response back. So I just kind of quit sending stuff. -7- VLS: Ok. Have you attempted to have communications directly with the Chief? BILLS: Not for a long time. VLS: Ok. When did you stop trying to communicate with the Chief by email? BILLS: When I stopped getting responses. Now I mean, we are going back when he first started. And he was a little bit open to some input, but quickly, quickly went South so. VLS: So your communications withBILLS: Now unless he needs something for his personal vehicle. Then he is very quick to send an email – hey I need something, I need this, I need maintenance done, or ill send a request to maintenance but even when I do that I end up sending that to the Battalion Chiefs and normally it’s Pete that responds and he has to follow-up to get the vehicle over to us to have the maintenance done on it. VLS: So currently, as it relates to your role, with fleet management, your communications with respect to the fire department are primarily with the Battalion Chiefs? BILLS: Yes. VLS: Ok. Do you communicate with them primarily with email? BILLS: Yeah, or by phone. Both. Equally. VLS: Text? BILLS: Um, sometimes. Not often, most of it is you know, whoever is on duty, you know- I need you to bring this fire truck in we’ve got XYZ to do on it, could you please swap it out at your earliest convenience and so that we can perform what we need to do and that’s true with airport also. VLS: Ok. And who do you deal with at the airport? BILLS: The Battalion Chiefs generally, but occasionally... here we go with names again. I’m really bad with people’s names, I apologize. Um, the Director of Operations – and (illegible) I can’t think of his name right now. VLS: So as to the fire boat, you have not had any email communications as it relates to the purchase of the boat? BILLS: I don’t think so. I can back and look probably, but I don’t think so. Recent? No, none. VLS: But you would have some emails going back and forth with the Battalion Chiefs as to the acquisition of the rescue truck? -8- BILLS: Early- again, early on- yes because we were trying to figure out what was the best for the department or one thing or another and I know that there was some discussion at City Council where they wanted even as far as the boat goes, they wanted more rescue type vehicles because they felt- and, it’s true, there’s a lot of rescue calls, more so than fire calls so they wanted, the department, to look at more of a rescue style boat and of course, we knew that we needed to replace the current rescue truck and they ended up getting two (2). VLS: Two rescue trucks? BILLS: Two (2) rescue trucks. One of which they do not have anybody to man. VLS: Are these what are referred to some as QRV’s? Quick Response Vehicles? BILLS: That would probably be the latest buzz word yeah. We call them Rescue 1 and Rescue 2. Rescue 2 is a work horse. That’s the one that makes the majority of the calls. Rescue 1 for some reason, and again, I don’t – I’m not (illegible) to that, is outfitted in a different manner…so I suppose it could be used as a Quick Response Vehicle, possibly for a small fire? But again, that’s kind of an operational thing with them. Feedback I’ve gotten and my own personal opinion is that they would have been better served to have a second rescue exactly like Rescue 2 so that they can be swapped as needed and we would never be down on a rescue vehicle. Because they aren’t outfitted in the same way. VLS: How are they outfitted differently? BILLS: 1 has ladders on board, some small ladder components, I’m trying to remember some of the other particulars, but there are some other particulars that don’t make it as suited and possibly unable to carry the same equipment that is on Rescue 2. VLS: Rescue 2 is the one with the ladder? BILLS: No, rescue 1 is the one with the ladders. Rescue 2 (illegible) that makes the majority of your medical calls and accident calls. VLS: Ok, you said- you mentioned something about it not being staffed? BILLS: Mm hm. VLS: Where do you get that information? BILLS: That’s kind of common information everybody knows – that they have been fighting forever to get additional staff. We have ladder trucks, are large ladder trucks that often only has one person on it. Sometimes now they are trying to put two on it and by NFPA standards that’s – that’s a big contentious thing between City Hall and the Department. VLS: Now are you – -9- BILLS: That’s way outside of my… VLS: Ok that’s what I wanted to know. This is what you’ve heard from others? BILLS: Yeah. VLS: Ok, you are not familiar with what the NFPA standards call for? BILLS: No, but if you follow any of the meetings, the Council Meetings, which we all try to just to see if it’s something just might impact us, you never know. VLS: So you do follow the meetings? Council meetings? BILLS: Well, generally- yes. VLS: By watching the video or? BILLS: A little of both. SometimesVLS: Do you sometimes go in person? BILLS: No. VLS: Have you ever been asked to appear before City Council on any issues pertinent to your responsibilities? BILLS: Long, long time ago. Under a different administration. VLS: Had nothing to do with the fire department? BILLS: No. VLS: Ok. BILLS: But on the boatVLS: Yes? BILLS: I don’t know if you know that or not, but the boat does not have a fire pump on it. VLS: Is that in the process of being installed? BILLS: No. Evidently… how’s your French? VLS: (laughs) It’s limited, I have some. BILLS: The French use a word called (illegible) and it’s – it kind of – and it’s very clear in France what they’re talking about but it’s loosely translated as deceptive, not straight - 10 - forward, everything’s a little twisted, contorted and that’s a word that I would apply to majority of purchases under the Chief. Nothing is straight forward. So, the boat went out whether City Hall intended it to have a fire pump or not, I have no idea. It was supposed to be a rescue boat but it was plunged, meaning that an underwater piping was put in place so that a fire pump could go into it. The fire pump is, I want to say a $30,000.00 addition which means it’s going to be a fairly substantial pump. So, if that’s the way of circumventing the purchasing procedures by not actually being forth coming in what you’re trying to do- then somebody has succeeded in doing that. VLS: Ok, where is the boat currently located? BILLS: Um, I think at the City dock. VLS: Is it being used for any purpose? BILLS: Oh yeah, I mean they use it for the rescue calls. VLS: Ok. And who would know whether the pump has been ordered, or is in the process of being ordered? BILLS: Pete DiMaria. VLS: And would he be going through your department if there was a pump being ordered? Or purchased or requisition- would that go through your department? BILLS: Again, under the old rules? Yes. Under the new rule standards? No, so we don’t really know what they’re going to buy. VLS: Do you know who would have records of it’s not your department, who would have records related to you know, whether something has been purchased or is going to be purchased? BILLS: Well, the Purchasing Department. VLS: The what? BILLS: The Purchasing Department. I mean they would have all of the VLS: Ok, who in the - I don’t know the City, so who in the Purchasing Department? BILLS: What’s his name? Again, names… Jed. But I’m not going to remember his last name. VLS: Ched? BILLS: Jed. “J-E-D” – VLS: What’s his position? - 11 - BILLS: Purchasing Manager. VLS: OK. And as you sit here, you do not know whether or not a pump has been approved or ordered? BILLS: I think… I believe it was in the budget. Because I go through, I go through every year- I go through a budget and I make a master list of all the vehicles that are going to be replaced, all of the equipment that is going to be replaced and so on. And I am almost 100% sure I did see a (illegible) for a boat for a fire pump. VLS: But you don’t know as you sit hereBILLS: If it’s been ordered or not, I have no clue. VLS: Alright, you’ve made the comment that under the current administration you’d felt there had been deceptive practices as it relates to the purchase of equipment? Or, I’m not sure what you said and I do not want to put words in your mouth. But you made a statement and I’d like to know what you meant by it. BILLS: Generally speaking, when we buy something, purchasing rules are very clear and we can go off a state contract, we can go off a federal contract, and we can go off a city or another county’s contract- as long as they have put a statement in their opening that particular purchase up to others. Sometimes they don’t want to for whatever reason, there actually has to be a statement in the document that says, you know, any other state, county, government agency can piggy back off of this basically. I believe that the (illegible) report was picked – I want to say off of either a state or a federal contract, which that within itself is no problem, that’s fine. The boat was – and here’s where it gets a little murky, the boat was purchased, the boat was finished – all of the electrical equipment needed to be installed. Now, normally when I purchase a fire truck, or in this case a boat- I would have everything done by the manufacturer. Because when it hits the street here when it hits the water here I want to be able to put it right in service. I don’t want to have to start oh we have to buy this we have to buy that, I want to be able to put it right into service. Well, evidently the boat was finished and the way that it was all done the manufacturer was not going to install the electronics so, again, this is an east coast manufacturer. VLS: Brunswick (illegible)? BILLS: Yes. And I don’t remember exactly which town they are out of but it’s in the general Ft. Lauderdale area, some place out in there. So they didn’t install the equipment. They build the boat, they sea trailed it, the boat when on—and this again, came from Pete DiMaria… or maybe not from Pete. Either Pete or from Mike—it will come to me eventually… VLS: Battalion Chief? BILLS: Battalion Chief yes… - 12 - VLS: Mike Nichols? BILLS: Mike Nichols, thank you. That the- the boat was going to be outfitted by a friend of the Chiefs. That happens to have a company that does that. We waited months, nothing happened. Then supposedly it went back to Brunswick at some point. Again, for whatever reason things didn’t happen so finally the boat came back to Naples and a local company was hired out of Fort Myers Beach I believe- where they purchased—I’m assuming they purchased all the equipment there and then they came and they installed it at my facility at equipment services. And that’s how that equipment was done. VLS: Ok, and do you know who the company was out of Fort Myers beach? BILLS: I do but not off the top of my head. I have that in the office. VLS: But that took place in your facilities department? BILLS: Right. VLS: Do you know who you said apparently- Pete or Mike told you that the plans were to have it outfitted by a friend of the Chief? BILLS: Someone who knew- maybe not a friend, but somebody he knew was going to be doing the outfitting of the electrical system. Which is the radar, the depth finder all that you know, the radio, and all that kind –that sort of stuff. VLS: Do you know who it was…that...? BILLS: Where it went? VLS: Right. BILLS: No. VLS: Ok, but that in fact was not done by them, it was done by a Fort Myers beach company? BILLS: It ended up being done by a Fort Myers beach company. VLS: And do you know why plans changed? Why it was not done by the vendor selected by the Chief? BILLS: I understand it just be (illegible) VLS: Ok I don’t want this (illegible). So your information about the outfitting of the electronics on the Brunswick boat, came to you primarily from the Battalion Chiefs? BILLS: Yes because we were concerned again, and we had taken one boat out of the water- everybody was kind of lamenting the fact that we wanted to get the Brunswick in - 13 - the water, as soon as possible because they were getting calls and again, that’s on the east coast were waiting for them to outfit the electrical and da de da de da. VLS: Ok, do you know how the long the process was delayed? BILLS: I’m going to say a month, I can’t... I can’tVLS: Where would the records be that would indicate? BILLS: Actually, the person that would know more about that would be Mike Nichols because he actually transfer- he went over and did the sea trials for the vessel then he transferred it to wherever it was supposed to go to and I’m guessing he went and got it and brought it back again, and then I think he brought it back to Brunswick – what I was told, and then it eventually came back to us. Because Brunswick said they weren’t going to outfit it. VLS: And you know for a fact that it was in your shop at the time it was outfitted by the Fort Myers beach company? BILLS: Yes, definitely. VLS: Ok, just kind of going back, I’m not sure we got back on the boat- on the boat subject, I think I was asking you about the statement you made and I’m not sure exactly what you said about deceptive practices. BILLS: Well, again, my thinking is that when you cut people out of things, especially people that have been involved in purchasing vehicles and so on and so forth for ages, we actually have a deal with Tamiami Ford locally, where its 1.65 (illegible) and we buy the vessels and we send the vessels to wherever they need to be outfitted. These vehicles were purchased through either Florida Sheriff’s Association Bid or some other bid process, I just don’t really remember. Well I wasn’t involved so I don’t know exactly what the legalities were so it must of gone through purchasing and (illegible), that’s fine but again, it just seems that – there’s more too that, and I can get into that later but it just seems it’s just, it’s a trend. VLS: Well, what other information do you have that would relate to what you believe to be deceptive practices on the part of the current Chief? BILLS: Two good examples. Fort Lauderdale had bought- the Chief came from Fort Lauderdale, and I will say that the majority of purchases made by the department come out of Fort Lauderdale, companies that are in Fort Lauderdale. Fort Lauderdale had Rosenbauer Trucks that the Chief had a personal friend that worked for Rosenbauer. When it was time to buy our- well when it was time to replace on of (illegible) trucks, we had – I had put together a little bid package. Again, in cooperation with the Battalion Chiefs and the type of stuff that we knew that they wanted, so I had a whole bid package ready and really it just needed to go through the purchasing to have them put it out on the street. That never happened. That never happened, so it took about a year for any – for that to basically come back up. And I kept asking what’s going on with the - 14 - purchase? Are you going out to bid? Because if you’re going to wait over a year you are going to lose the money. Because you don’t need it – therefore you’re going to lose the money. VLS: Ok, I want to understand what particular apparatus or vehicle you are talking about. BILLS: It would have been Engine 1, which was replaced with an E1 fire pumper truck, with another truck of similar size and so on. And here’s just the logic. In the state of Florida, there’s two major companies that most fire departments deal with. There’s others- but the major ones are Pierce and E1, or Emergency One. Emergency one is made out, manufactured in Ocala, Pierce is manufactured in Wisconsin but – it’s, the company that represents them here has three locations throughout the state. So part (illegible), service, your technical back out, all those key elements are available with both of those. After, which of course, we go to the bid process and generally speaking, one of those two would have more than likely won the bid. So. Oh actually, I’m kind of backwards in that, that’s the second truck we purchased. We will finish this one, that’s alright doesn’t matter but I don’t think the progression. So we went out to bid with the bid documents that we had and – I’ve said this several times to these guys, the bids come back and did you guys – did you forget to put an engine in this? Because the bids were so low for Rosenbauer that it was just mind boggling. It was... Yeah, we were looking at, you know, they are very close within $15,000.00 within one another or one or the other. This was like huge, it was really like, a lot of money. Anyway, so we go – they were ultimately accepted as the winner of the bid, and we went up to Minnesota to do the initial – kind of one of the things you do with fire trucks. You go to the plant, you sit down with the Engineers, you go through the specs… about everything you want to see and one thing or another, and they tell you what’s what basically. VLS: Did you personally go to Minnesota? BILLS: Yes, along with a couple of fire fighters, Pete DiMaria, and the Chief. VLS: Ok. When, by the way, was that? Can you place it year wise? BILLS: I could if I was in my office. But, that truck is ….2003, had to of been. The winter of 2003, something like that. VLS: 2003? Or 2013? I am just checking. I transpose numbers all the time. BILLS: (Laughs) 2013. 2013 I’m sorry. VLS: Ok. BILLS: So we went through the whole process and everything was fine. We all got back here and Pete gave me a call and he says you aren’t going to believe this. And I go what? And he says, Rosenbauer just called and they’re asking us if we want the extruded aluminum body. And I go- yeah? That’s what they bid right? That’s what - 15 - everybody else did. And he goes nope, the bid a molded body. And I don’t know if you know anything about extrusions? VLS: I do not. BILLS: Ok, extrusions are something – VLS: Draw me a diagram. BILLS: Yeah, so an extrusion could be a piece of aluminum- that is something like this, maybe. Could be just something as simple as this, from a flat stand point, sorry. And this would fit down into a channel. Because of the way that its built, it has sort of a characteristics that allow it to not twist a lot, not to go from the rear side to side because of the extrusions- it’s all kind of all reinforced, but yet it’s usually a very small… call it a pipe or tube if you want. Ok so that’s the difference between an extruded body which is usually square because you have these angles here, and a molded body which might – have a door here and then it goes back, and then you have a door here… so that would be kind of like a molded body. These are kind of strong but they are nowhere as near as tuff and won’t last as extrusions are. VLS: So an extruded body is better than a molded body? BILLS: Absolutely. A molded body would be a cheap body that you might put on a conventional truck, like a ford international or something like that when you don’t have the money. We had the money. And actually, when I was thinking back on it earlier, I believe that language, the extrusion- I was asked to remove that from the bid because we wanted to open the bid up to everybody. But everybody meaning Pierson and E1 submitted – there’s another one in there too, somebody else also, but those were all extruded bodies. VLS: Who asked you to remove the extruded body from the Chief? BILLS: The Chief wanted it removed. VLS: That was told to you by the Chief or through the chain of command? BILLS: Through the chain of command. To open it up more. Anyway, so if you wanted an extrusion, extruded body was going to be… I believe, it was an extra $50,000.00, which put all of the other companies into the (illegible). I told Pete, this needs to go back out to bid. You can’t just throw another $50,000.00 at this and you know, it’s not legal. We didn’t go back out to bid, Pete agreed with me but whatever happened in between time, I guess the City Manager or somebody, had to be him, because its (illegible) add an additional $50,000.00 (illegible), or I’m not sure how it was structured, but anyways they got an extra– I believe it was in the $50,000.00 range. Don’t quote me, because I am just trying to remember, but it was a lot of money. VLS: That would be the purchasing department that would have the records? - 16 - BILLS: Oh yeah, they would have the records. VLS: Did you ever say anything to anyone within the City about this – about what you thought was not legal? BILLS: Well to my boss, sure. Yeah. VLS: Ok, so that would have been to--? BILLS: To Buddy Bennett. VLS: Ok, and do you know whether Buddy Bennett had shared anything? BILLS: He wouldn’t have said anything. No, he wouldn’t have said anything to anybody because he doesn’t make waves he just you know, just his style. And the other one was- and that was actually the first one, it was a ladder truck we were replacing, a 75 foot aerial ladder truck and that’s what was the conversation was do you want the body to be the same as the 75 foot aerial? So, with the 75 foot aerial it was something else. We got the extruded body, but when we up to the plant to… ok so here is the thing. We’ve always had aluminum ladders. Now, were talking 75, 95 foot ladders- big, big automated hydraulic (illegible) driven ladders on these big trucks and it’s a perfect choice for Southwest Florida because of our proximity to the Gulf of Mexico, (illegible) and so on and so forth. Which is when I did the specs, that’s what I put in there, we wanted aluminum. And I was told to take that out, same thing- by chain of command. We want to open it up to everybody we want to make it fair because Rosenbauer did not have an aluminum ladder, they only had a steel ladder. VLS: Who told you that? BILLS: Well, it’s in their specs. Now they have an aluminum ladder I believe, but at the time they did not have an aluminum ladder. So that was well we want to make it fair to everybody right? VLS: And again, this came to you through the chain of command? BILLS: Through the chain of the command, right. Actually, you know what the ladder I think the Chief himself told me that was when he was getting fuel one day that he wanted to open it up to everybody and make sure that we took that out. That we took that requirement for aluminum out, so I had to re-write that section. VLS: Let me just stop you, and we are going to get back on track, but do you have access to the records the bid packages and different versions of the bid? For instance, if it was part of the bid package and was in there and was later taken out… BILLS: I would have to look. I don’t know that I did them then. You know, I don’t know if I just took the document or changed it or if I actually created a different version of the document because of the change - I just don’t remember. - 17 - VLS: But you would have the bid documents that were ultimately prepared for both of these apparatus? BILLS: I would have my version. How they were changed after that, I would have no clue because I just send my stuff to Pete or the Chief, and maybe both and that was back when we were actually, working together on specifications and things like that. VLS: And I’m not sure that I let you finished your explanation with respect to the ladder. BILLS: With the ladder, quickly, we got to the meeting up in Minnesota, after Rosenbauer won that bid also. Same comment, no motor? Very cheap. We got there and I said ok this is a steel ladder, now if you want to paint it, it’s this much and if you want it galvanized, and it’s this much. Well, (illegible) south damage steel will rust from the inside out and even though we are required by the (illegible- NFPA law?) to have rules, to have that equipment verified, certified, every year- steel channel and stuff rust from the inside out, they don’t typically rust on the outside because you keep them painted but the point is again, the galvanization of that ladder was not included in the originally bid specs and nor was painting of the ladder because it was just slick to take that stuff out- which is my two cents, but – VLS: So to your knowledge, was the decision made to have the ladders painted and galvanized? BILLS: Yeah. It was a $30,000.00 up fit, more or less. And again, that put the other companies back in the running. 30,000.00 dollars is a huge, when you’re taking fire trucks, these guys really know what they are doing so that probably back out to bid also. VLS: Did it go back out to bid? BILLS: Nope. Nope. Nope. VLS: So there are two fire trucks that you have sighted in your examples, one is the first one was the – BILLS: Engine One VLS: And that’s a pumper truck? BILLS: That’s a pumper truck. And this other one is Ladder One and that is a 75 foot aerial ladder. VLS: And you believe that you would have access to your version of the bid documents for those two? BILLS: Probably, I would have to back and search but there is a good chance I would have that access. - 18 - VLS: And I am going to ask you to do that. Did I give you a card? BILLS: You did. VLS: You can use that email address and I would appreciate that. Did you discuss your concerns with the increase in price for the galvanization and painting on the ladder with anyone else? BILLS: I probably, knowing me, I probably voice my concern at the meeting with everyone there. VLS: The meeting in Minnesota? BILLS: The meeting in Minnesota and then of course, when we got back also. You know, just what the hell is this? You know, to me, I’ve been doing this, purchasing so long and writing specs for other trucks and other different things for so long, that it just – it doesn’t make me an expert by any means, but I’ve been doing it a long time and usually passes a (illegible) from with everybody, the departments are happy and we seem to be able to work through this somehow. Everything, this whole process was just shady if nothing else. It wasn’t clear. Like all the other stuff that I’ve done, it’s very cookie cutter- easy to do, easy to process- what do you want, how do we do it. I mean even the two E1 fire trucks that I specked out and we purchased, I mean it was a seamless process, it just went through, no issues whatsoever. (Illegible), a different regime but this stuff- just… VLS: Ok, who was on the trip to Minnesota relating to the purchase of the ladder truck? BILLS: Well I know Pete was there and there were two fire fighters- I can’t think of their names, and of course the Chief was there. VLS: And did the Chief in the trip to Minnesota, relating to the purchase of Ladder One, did the Chief say anything as it related to the ladder and the company’s representation that it would cost more… BILLS: Well something along the lines of well find the money, or we will get the money it’s not a worry, and usually that doesn’t happen. In my past experience is if I buy a truck and I realize that I didn’t put something on it- I forgot something, you just don’t turn around and say oh well we need more money because we screwed up. Basically, we need more money… we would never get it. Fact, we don’t ever ask, because we know we won’t get it. And another thing is- the Rosenbauers’ themselves, and this is – and I pointed out earlier, we’ve had a lot of success with our Peirce fire trucks- and in fact, we have a very old Peirce fire truck that is still in service today, and with our E1s. And again, because with parts and availability, service that we get from these companies and one thing or another, Fort Lauderdale was in a lawsuit against Rosenbauer because of the way they had built their ladder trucks. And I’m not sure what happened with the lawsuit, but basically what it was that, once they put their ladders on there, the trucks were overweight. And they are having all kinds of breakdowns and problems and - 19 - just a lot of stuff so I am assuming it got settled in court because I know it made into a lawsuit, what happened I don’t know. But anyway, just the representation that Rosenbauer had at that time- and I think, to some extent, still has- at least in the state of Florida for being a cheap alternative to a good piece of equipment. We didn’t want the fire department went through a lengthy process with the fire fighters- what do you want? What kind of truck would you want? And they all came back oh we want a Peirce- we prefer Peirce, but we would be happy to take an E1. VLS: Ok and do you know who conducted that process with the fire fighters to elicit their opinions? BILLS: I’m going to guess it was driven by the Chief, but they would be able to tell yeah- the fire fighters will be able to tell you. But I’m guessing it was put out there by the Chief, one of those I would like to purchase what you guys want, and so on and so forth and then he just basically totally ignored them. VLS: And where did you get that information? BILLS: You can ask any fire fighter in the City of Naples, they all know. And they all talk about it, you know we wanted a Peirce, you know, look what we got. And honestly, it is crappy equipment. That’s not a very technical word, is it? VLS: Now are you talking in terms-of its repair record, or what do you base that on? BILLS: Yeah, we know, the company itself is terrible to deal with, so I think we’ve only bought maybe one part something from them and – let me back up. The way that Peirce or E1 would work is within the first year; anything goes wrong with your truckanything, you go back to them. If it’s a (illegible) part, they’ll take care of it for you. If it’s one of the foam pro- any of the systems that are on that truck, if they go bad in any way shape or form, E1, Pierce whoever, they will take care of it for you. When we had stuff go bad with the Rosenbauers…oh you’ll have to contact the manufacturer. So, it’s just been a lot of extra, extra work on us now to have to go through the manufacturer anytime we want something done and to justify it through a manufacturer opposed to it having it covered under a bumper to bumper warranty through Rosenbauer. VLS: Was it eventually paid by Rosenbauer? BILLS: Not by Rosenbauer, but the parts were generally taken care of. Again, if it was E1 or Peirce, they would send down one of their mechanics, he would replace the part and there would be no problem. Again, Rosenbauer had a mechanic. I don’t know how to explain this guy because he was the most obnoxious, know-it-all, never wrong (even though he was wrong often) guy I’ve ever known in my life. Never seen a guy like this and my mechanics hated him, fire department didn’t want him around, and the guy was their rep. So if somebody says, well we did have a rep or we did have a mechanic and he could of come by and fixed that—that’s, that’s not true. VLS: Ok, do you recall the name of the mechanic from Rosenbauer? - 20 - BILLS: Corey--- I wonder if--- let me just see if I don’t have the guy’s last name. But anyways, his first name was Corey I know that but we tried not to – I don’t have it. Corey something or another. VLS: And is he still the rep for Rosenbauer? BILLS: I don’t know, because we don’t deal with him? VLS: Ok so who do you deal with now as it relates to Rosenbauer vehicles? BILLS: Again, for the input that I had, I specked all the high end equipment, so its foam pro- its (illegible), its systems that I know have good warranties, they’re solid components and that’s to (illegible) those trucks out. That stuff didn’t get changed. So, we deal right with those manufacturers for parts and service and we actually deal- even with the Rosenbauer, we still deal a lot with E1. Hallmark is the name of the company and they have been doing a very good – they’ve been helping us out with you know, little things that you know, that we might not know. Another thing that happened though, on both of those trucks is – we use a multiplexed system, a multiplexed electrical system on our fire trucks. There is multiplex which is all electrical- little computers that all talk to a larger computer so if you want, they’re little (illegible) that feed the lights, feed the sirens, feed the systems throughout the truck. That is the way to go, there is no doubt about it. When we got up there to Minnesota and both cases, the first one I didn’t really scream and yell about because it was what it was- I thought (illegible) that would be the ladder truck. They all went point to point which means wiring. There’s packages of wires probably at least a half of foot round running throughout that truck and to find a problem within that wiring is just, its not even like it’s a harness, it is individual packets of wires running throughout. It is the worst electrical system I’ve ever seen. They do have a multiplex system and during this purchase of the second truck I went- no, we have a multiplex system (illegible) and they said the Chief changed it. And I looked down at the table and I looked him and he goes well, I read an article about something in California and it said the multiplex systems weren’t reliable. I go- your only two trucks run multiplex systems the two E1s had multiplex systems on them, and we’ve had no- very little, and we know we have the modules on the shelf we know what to do to fix it. It’s very quick and simple and I think he asked at the time the rep for Rosenbauer how many trucks they put out that are multiplex versus point to point and his answer was somewhere in the vicinity of 80% I believe were multiplex systems and the other 20% were either vehicles that went out of the country or were specialized – specialized typed vehicles. VLS: And this- the issue were the multiplex system was questioned by you in Minnesota. That was, which truck? BILLS: That would have been Engine 1. VLS: Ok, and you’re saying – BILLS: I’m sorry, I’m sorry, engine 2. - 21 - VLS: Engine 2. BILLS: I think I misspelled earlier (illegible) in your notes, I said Engine 1. VLS: We’re going by the tape anyway. BILLS: Its ladder 1, engine 2. VLS: And you’re saying that the Chief in your presence said he had changed the specs from multiplex to point to point electronics? BILLS: And I don’t know why because I mean, one- that’s not his expertise, that’s not his area of expertise so I don’t know why he would change it. Was there a cost difference? Between point to point or with a multiplex system? I don’t know, I can’t speak to that. VLS: Now what was actually installed in engine 2 was that the point to point? BILLS: Point to point. VLS: Has there been any, to your knowledge, any point maintenance wise to date with the point to point system? BILLS: Oh yeah, just trying to diagnose it. VLS: So it has presented more of a problem? BILLS: Oh absolutely. Were just lucky we have solid components in those trucks because otherwise- and again, when you look at those two trucks the way they’re put together E1 and Pierce they make their own chassis, they make their own bodies, everything is made by E1 or made by Pierce at their factories. Now they use front axles and rear axles – components that are kind off the shelf if you want, but they are all equated to a certain weight and one thing or another but they do make their own chassis. Rosenbauer purchases their trucks from … here we go again, another name… I have to get back to you on that but anyways they purchase their truck. It’s a good company, they make a lot of over the road type of camping type vehicles, other companies use them for fire trucks, specialized vehicles, one thing or another so they buy the chassis the cab it all comes from – ah kills me I can’t think of the name of the company. I’m just really bad with names and maybe it’s probably age but anyway. Yeah, there is a difference right there in the quality of the truck. Now since we bought our two trucks, Rosenbauer has started to make their own cabs so they are going to be making or they are making currently their own cabs and one thing or another. I don’t know if they are making their own chassis or not. VLS: Ok, I think you said something earlier in the interview that the Chief had a friend at Rosenbauer? BILLS: Mm hm. - 22 - VLS: Do you know who that was? BILLS: He is no longer with them, because it’s another story… I don’t know that (pauses) I know that some place in this phone I have the guy’s name, but I honestly can’t remember it. VLS: Ok would you try to locate that? And let me know. Do you know what position that friend of the Chief’s had? BILLS: Well he was a firefighter but he was also a salesman for I think it was EVS – Emergency Vehicle Services who was a Rosenbauer – who sold Rosenbauer, over on the East coast and he was one of their salesman. VLS: Now how did you find that out? That the Chief was friends with this firefighter salesman for EVS? BILLS: I honestly don’t remember. I don’t know, I’m not sure if he was even a Fort Lauderdale firefighter, he may have been a Fort Lauderdale firefighter and that might have been the connection, I don’t know. I know that when we have had salesmen come over—oh yeah I’ve know the Chief for years, you know kind of thing, so. VLS: Do you have any reason to believe that the Chief personally profited from the use of Rosenbauer- the selection of Rosenbauer as the vendor? BILLS: My personal opinion is, that everybody feels that the Chief is profiting somehow from pretty much everything that purchases because so much of it is driven through Fort Lauderdale and it’s not – again, it’s not a cookie cutter type truck purchases and so on and so forth. VLS: But you have no direct information to that affect? BILLS: No. Actually there is no way to know, from my stand point. VLS: From your standpoint in Fleet Management, is there anything else that you have information about as far as what you characterize as deceptive practices on the part of Chief? BILLS: I mean those are the big ones that I can think of. I know right now, they are getting ready to purchase a new replacement vehicle for him which would be an Expedition and one of the things that has happened over the years is for whatever reason he has tried to push the vehicles- those vehicles for the fire Marshall, Battalion Chief whatever- push the high end vehicles and I know of the last purchase he wanted leather seats for the Fire Marshall and I’m going, this is the City of Naples, yeah but we don’t buy leather seats for our people. We never have, ever- ever. Oh well you know, but you know- it was a big deal it was a lot of going back and forth about the stupid seats you know. And it didn’t get purchased let’s just say that. But I saw a piece of paper and I know were going into this session here and nobody has come to us- and my boss says well I’m going to order the vehicle he thinks he needs, because it’s supposed - 23 - to go through him – he does all of the ordering of the small vehicles basically for the City. VLS: Who’s that? BILLS: Buddy Bennett. When I got some of the equipment, when I got some of the manuals for these last trucks that were dropped off – in there and probably inadvertently, was a spec for a 2016 Explorer with leather seats and every other bell and whistle you could think about. And it is readily available on the internet its stuff you can pull up- it’s not you know. So I looked at Buddy and I go here- and he goes what’s that? And I go I’m going to guess this is probably the vehicle the Chief wants to buy. He goes leather seats again? And I go yeah that’s what it looks like. And he just shook his head, well I’m going to go ahead and order the vehicle but it’s not going to have leather seats kind of thing. VLS: So Buddy Bennett made the choice – you think that Buddy… BILLS: Well it went back and forth. My guess would be that the Chief just gave up I mean, on that one it wasn’t that important. And maybe Buddy would know better- and he doesn’t really know a lot of this stuff because he does try to stay out of everything I just-I’m just me. But I don’t think they had enough money to put the leather seats in there and I think that was probably the deciding factor. He hadn’t budgeted enough money to actually get all the bells and whistles that he wanted on that particular vehicle. VLS: Has the 2016 Explorer been ordered? BILLS: Well not from us, not from the best of my knowledge. Now, I suppose I could go in and find out if there’s another PO cut or not – but purchasing with us I know that. If he’s going around us- then you know. VLS: Ok can you check on the status on the 2016 Explorer? BILLS: Mhm. VLS: Do you in your capacity, as Fleet ManagerBILLS: Coordinator. VLS: Coordinator, I’m sorry. Do you determine- help assess whether new equipment apparatus vehicles etc. are needed? BILLS: Yes. VLS: And how do you do that? Is there a system that you follow? BILLS: That’s a really good question. Again, back to faster VLS: This is the system that you used to use? - 24 - BILLS: What we use to use. Faster has a (illegible) system that we used to assess vehicles and it is – and to be very boring, it uses there’s 5 points for age, say you establish an age and you say ok you know, 5 years 10 years whatever it is- and if it gets there its 5 points. You establish a mile- how many miles a truck will get realizing that in Naples its 15 sq. miles. Trucks don’t get a lot of mileage not like some of those- like the ambulances for the County, they are 250, 300 thousand miles. You know, 50 years from now we couldn’t put that kind of mileage on any of our vehicles. So anyway you establish miles that 5 points and then for maintenance there’s 10 points and what that allows for is if you have a truck or a vehicle that’s just prone to problems, I mean some of them are and they are in the shop a lot and they’re spending a lot of money, that could kind of override one of the other components so when you get to 15 points that kind of tells us, ok it’s time to replace the vehicle. Our trucks are real special, but all the other vehicles is pretty much the way it goes. VLS: Ok and did you input- were you in charge of inputting data into the faster equation? BILLS: Yeah, I mean it’s all – within faster, it’s all automatic. Miles go right in when you get fuel, the age of course clocks ticking and all of our maintenance records were driven through faster. With the new program, we haven’t even gotten anywhere near that. VLS: Ok is the new program being used for all equipment or just for the fire department? BILLS: No, the new program- Munis is being used across the City – citywide. VLS: And when was Munis – when did you start using Munis? BILLS: Two in a half years – something like that. Unfortunately, they sold it to everyone oh it will do everything for everyone and yeah, it doesn’t. But. VLS: Since Chief McInery became the Chief in the City of Naples, has there been any issues to your knowledge about when a vehicle is scheduled for replacement? BILLS: No. I mean, when we say you know, were close with most of the departments so I’ll say ok, here’s your list for this year you’ve got (illegible) cars, (illegible) detective cars I would suggest you replace (illegible), I would suggest you do this, do this, do thisbased on numbers that I see. I don’t know (illegible) not just to see the stuff all the time. So, we use a pretty kind of a broad ruler but usually, yeah, it does need to be replaced. VLS: So you feed the departments information based on experience and input at the time from the faster system to make a recommendation for a replacement. BILLS: Correct. Now I will say that when we replaced the aerial ladder- and this is, I guess you could consider it operational. It depends on the way you look at it- I don’t consider it operational, but when we replace the ladder we have the old ladder. The old ladder was very fragile in the sense- not the ladder itself but the truck itself. We - 25 - managed to get it through its manual check and a PA required checklist and the Engineers come in and they test all the systems and all the equipment and we got it through. I told the Chief at the time, you need to sell this…now. Because we had a reserve piece- we already had a good reserve piece of equipment in the (illegible) we had, so we- and for 20 something years we had one reserve piece of equipment. That was fine. He said no- and we already had it for about a year and I said no we need to get rid of this. I said because I don’t know I can’t guarantee how much longer it’s going to last and we’ve got an opportunity to get up with the 80 thousand dollars if we sell it now opposed to if it breaks. And guess what happened? It broke. We got $5,000 for it. So, I’m not saying we would of gotten 80, I mean it might have been 50, 60, 70 – who knows, but and there was no real reason to keep it. Now we are in the same situation kind of again. The pierce that we’ve been nursing along all these years, it passed all of its tests and now I’m looking at it and I’m going you know what– I don’t know how much longer this thing is going to- I don’t care if they have two, two pieces of back up equipment- that’s, that’s not my call. That’s his call. But from the City standpoint, $5,000 verses 50 or whatever it could have been, now we’ve got another piece equipment that is kind of in the same boat and I’m saying we need to get rid of it while we can and the City will get a lot of money and that money will buy all kinds of equipment for firefighting. And so far it’s been no, we aren’t going to do that. VLS: What type of equipment is the pierce? BILLS: Peirce is a pumper. VLS: And to what station is it assigned? BILLS: It’s not, it’s just a reserve piece. VLS: Do you make your recommendations for instance, with respect to the pierce pumper, do you make those in writing? BILLS: I don’t know whether I did or didn’t. I did speak to Pete and I know Pete spoke to the Chief. But, that’s probably where it went. My boss isn’t a big fan of me writing anything because I speak – because I kind of write the way I talk I guess. (laughs) VLS: Has he ever told you – so he’s told you not to put things in writing? BILLS: Well, it’s- I can’t, I can’t contact IT anymore. I’ve been told not to contact IT everything has to go through him or through somebody else because this (illegible) is so flipping bad and you know, when (illegible) doesn’t do what we need to do, I’ve got to put - anyway, the City is actually losing money and losing data because of it but – VLS: Ok. Did you do any type of assessment under the faster system? Or the (illegible) System as to whether the new personal vehicle the Battalion Chief truck needed to be replaced? BILLS: No. but I can do that as soon as I get back to the office. - 26 - VLS: Ok did you ever tell anyone that in your opinion that it didn’t need to be replaced? BILLS: Well, maybe. But again, I don’t remember. And it would have been because the Chief has decided he wants to get some kind of a – I don’t know, Yukon or some big SUV style vehicle that the County or that Fort Lauderdale is using and pretty much the Battalion Chiefs said they really like their truck. VLS: What type of vehicle is currently used as the Battalion Chief truck? BILLS: 350 or 450 pick-up truck with a camper (illegible) on the back, roll out tray – it’s equipped for what they do. VLS: I see. Ok. Are you aware of any – you’ve described what you believed were some deceptive practices under Chief McInery, is there anything else that you have to bring to my attention? BILLS: I don’t think so. I don’t think soVLS: Ok. Let’s see if there is anything else…Are you aware of any way that the Chief has misled council or the community by creating a misimpression of need with regard to apparatus where it does not exist? BILLS: It seems…and this is in part from different conversations that we’ve had, but it seems like the Chief is trying to build a… big department and if you want to call it expensive department, I know that he wants this big huge fire house downtown and there’s been a lot of push back from City Council and I guess looking at the specifications from the fire house he wants, its loaded with all kind of rooms and things that - it’s basically a carbon copy of something I think he built over in Fort Lauderdale. And the Fort Lauderdale guys- I guess, from what I’ve been told, aren’t using half of it. VLS: Do you have anything to do in your role with the City, do you have anything to do with facilities? BILLS: No, but other than, I know in the past we’ve been involved helping them speck out systems to charge the vehicles. VLS: Ok. BILLS: They have to have electricity, I’ve allocated that they put in a bay wide compressed air system which has not happened, but it would save us a lot of money if we did in the end. Look, stations are (illegible), they’re old, that’s a whole other story and they- I think they do need to be replaced but its (illegible) cheaper way to do basically. So. VLS: Ok. BILLS: And oh. And yeah, I mean he… I would... I am still befuddled by the fact that we have two rescue vehicles because I just don’t understand why. We don’t have the - 27 - staff to man them and I was told by the fire fighters that if it’s a rescue call they are going to jump out of a fire truck and jump in to this rescue vehicle and then go to the thing and its fine they have to come back. It’s very convoluted I’m not sure, I’m actually not sure how we sold council on that other than if we had two rescue trucks maybe then we wouldn’t have to drive a fire truck to an accident scene. I really don’t know but I mean, right now it’s just, it’s finished. It sits. VLS: Where is it located? BILLS: At the police department fire headquarters if you will. VLS: On? BILLS: On Riverside Drive Circle. Yeah, it just sits there and also again, this is not hearsay but this is what was said that he was going to kick EMS out of station one where this vehicle was supposed to go to. But evidently, there’s (illegible) which is second thoughts on it so they aren’t going to do it now and there’s no place actually to put this vehicle. VLS: At station one? BILLS: At station one. So it just sits- again... VLS: Has it been utilized at all to your knowledge? BILLS: No. VLS: It has not been utilized? BILLS: No. VLS: Is it fully equipped to be utilized? BILLS: That I don’t know. I haven’t seen it lately so I don’t know whether they’ve done it and again this goes back to when… goes back to a package deal. When you… when I outfitted these trucks I mean we went, we- they came in, the E1s, they came in ready to go with all (illegible) things to strap down equipment with the (illegible) high with the compartments, with (illegible) is a plastic kind of, like a honey comb tile that sits on top of the aluminum so you don’t scratch up your equipment and water can drain through you know it doesn’t just sit there. Or, other containments just drip through and they stay on the bottom. That was all (illegible) so when we got the equipment, other than I think (illegible), actually put the graphics on the side and when that was done it went right into service. We were done with it so now we got vehicles- again, kind of like the boat… is this just the way to (illegible)… so that’s somebody saying “hey I want to buy a rescue boat now I’m going to have it plunged for a fire pump but I’m going to put that in another budget, a year away and I’m just not going to talk to anybody about it because it’s only $30,000.00 and maybe nobody will notice…” I don’t know, I don’t know but it’s the same thing with the equipment- why wasn’t this put together as a package with - 28 - everything that they need and done it that way? And again, I just know the way we’ve used to do stuff and the way that things are being done now and I just don’t get it. So anyway. VLS: Is it handled- do you handle the assessment and acquisition of equipment for other departments besides the City- besides the fire department? BILLS: Oh yeah, all of them. VLS: Do any other departments handle it this way? BILLS: No. VLS: Ok. I don’t think I have any other questions. Understanding that I’ve been charged by the City to look into allegations of misconduct or a vote of no confidence expressed by the Union in a letter dated October 21, 2015, do you have anything further to, that you think is important to … BILLS: No (illegible). VLS: Ok with that in mind, we will conclude this interview of Randy Bills, it’s about noon on December the 15th. - 29 - 1. 2. INCIDENT DATE 10/11/11 12/01/11 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 12/08/11 12/10/11 12/14/11 12/24/11 01/02/12 8. 01/12/12 9. 10. 11. 12. 01/20/12 01/25/12 01/28/12 02/08/12 13. 03/26/12 14. 05/25/12 INCIDENT REPORTS INCIDENT CODED INCIDENT TYPE CORRECT CODE # 1103809 111-Bldg. fire 442-Overheated motor or wiring 1104443 111-Bldg. fire 445-Arcing, shorted electrical equipment 1104532 111-Bldg. fire 442-Overheated motor or wiring 1104561 111-Bldg. fire 442-Overheated motor or wiring 1104622 111-Bldg. fire 111? 1104759 113-Cooking fire contained 113 1200034 140-Natural vegetation fire 445-Arcing, shorted electrical equipment 1200186 111-Bldg. fire 441-Heat from short circuit (wiring), defective or worn insulation 1200319 111-Bldg. fire 442-Overheated motor or wiring 1200403 162-Outside equipment fire 162 1200444 111-Bldg. fire 442-Overheated motor or wiring 1200605 111-Bldg. fire 441-Heat from short circuit (wiring), defective or worn insulation 1201416 162-Outside equipment fire 445-Arcing, shorted electrical equipment 1202193 111-Bldg. fire 442-Overheated motor or wiring 15. 16. 07/02/12 07/11/12 1202640 1202749 135-Aircraft call 100-Fire other 17. 18. 09/05/12 09/06/12 1203399 1203412 111-Bldg. fire 113-Cooking fire, contained # 135 or 441 441-Heat from short circuit (wiring), defective or worn insulation 442-Overheated motor or wiring 113 -1- COMMENTS Smoke-no visible flame Heat but no flame Judgment call Palm tree not on fire No visible flame No visible flame Not a fire unless tree burning No indication of flame damage Judgment call No description of fire damage in narrative No flame 19. INCIDENT DATE 09/16/12 20. 21. 22. 23. 11/23/12 12/22/12 08/05/14 10/03/14 24. 25. 11/01/14 03/21/15 INCIDENT REPORTS INCIDENT CODED INCIDENT TYPE CORRECT CODE # 1203546 111-Bldg. fire 441-Heat from short circuit (wiring), defective or worn insulation 1204387 113-Cooking fire, contained 111-Bldg. fire 1204777 162-Outside equipment fire 162 1403382 111-Bldg. fire 141-Forest or woods fire 1404056 111-Bldg. fire 441-Heat from short circuit (wiring), defective or worn insulation 1404366 111-Bldg. fire 442-Overheated motor or wiring 1501478 111-Bldg. fire 442-Overheated motor or wiring 26. 04/22/15 1502035 111-Bldg. fire 27. 28. 29. 30. 06/01/15 08/15/15 08/17/15 8/28/15 1502610 1503598 1503624 1503778 100-Fire other 134-Water vehicle fire 111-Bldg. fire 162-Outside equipment fire # 441-Heat from short circuit (wiring), defective or worn insulation or 442-Overheated motor or wiring 442-Overheated motor or wiring 134 111 441-Heat from short circuit (wiring), defective or worn insulation -2- COMMENTS No evidence of flame damage Did damage to stove Did not involve structure Did not move from object of origin Short circuit or overheated motor Close call No flame damage described in narrative Interoffice Memorandum Date : April 19, 2016 To : FILE From : Vicki L. Sproat Re : Phone Interview of Wayne Watts on February 17, 2016 at 9:00 a.m. (850-413-3749) I interviewed Wayne Watts, Senior Management Analyst with the State Fire Marshall at the prearranged time of 9AM. (850-413-3749) We had general discussions concerning the NFIRS fire coding system. The current governing NFIRS guideline is the 5.0 version. About 10 years ago, NFIRS went from the 4.0 to the 5.0 version. One of the initial determinations that a Fire Department must make in reporting an incident is whether the incident involves a “fire” or a “non-fire.” The 100 series cover incidents involving “fires” (including fires out on arrival and gas vapor explosions). The 200 series should be used when there is a hazardous condition, but no fire. Generally, for an incident to be considered a fire, there should be some evidence of flame damage or charring. Watts stressed the importance of proper NFIRS coding. Local fire departments are required to upload NFIRS data and submit it to the State Fire Marshall in monthly reports. The State Fire Marshall then prepares quarterly reports which it submits to NFIRS. The data reported is important at all levels (local, state and national). Data is collected for a variety of purposes, including identifying trends and justifying program costs to local legislative bodies. Watts said it would be a serious ethical breach for a department to intentionally miscode incidents to boost numbers. The State Fire Marshall does not review the accuracy of the coding in the monthly reports submitted by fire departments. The State Fire Marshall does not have the capability to review reports for accuracy. In fact, the monthly reports submitted to the State Fire Marshall’s office do not include the narrative portion of the incident reports. Watts reviewed the 30 incident reports that I sent him and offered his observations as to whether the incidents were properly coded. Henderson, Franklin, Starnes & Holt, P.A. FILE April 19, 2016 Page 2 Watts did not know whether the incident coding on the 30 reports I sent him was initially inputted by dispatch or by the responding unit. However, regardless of whether the coding was done by dispatch or by the responding unit, it should be ultimately reviewed by the Reporting Unit for accuracy. If the initial incident was miscoded, the code should be revised. Watts explained that there is some judgment involved in coding. For instance, there can be a fine line between damage caused by overheated equipment or a fire. Watts compared the narrative with the coding on each of the 30 incident reports. Watts stated that incident code should be consistent with the narrative. (Watts made the general observation that the Naples Fire Department needs more training on preparing narratives. It is common for Departments to be too brief in the narratives.) In Watts’ opinion, 22 of the 30 incident reports were miscoded. The other 8 were either properly coded or he was unable to reach a conclusion. Watts stated that most of the miscoding on the reports he reviewed involved hazardous conditions (no fire) that were wrongfully coded "fires." Generally, the hazardous conditions were due to short circuits or overheated motors or wiring, and there was no description of an actual “fire” in the narrative. Flame or flame damage should be described in a narrative. Watts’ comments on the 30 reports is detailed in the attached chart. We also discussed the NFIRS reporting system and how estimated dollar losses and values are reported on incident reports. NFIRS does not recommend any single method for computing dollar loss. The Fire Marshall's office does not review reports to check on the accuracy of estimated values. Watts said that it is appropriate for a fire department to correct reports. Generally, even after they are submitted to the Fire Marshall's office, an agency can write an addendum or simply add to the narrative. Changes can be made to the reports even after they are released from the Fire Marshall's office to NFIRS. Henderson, Franklin, Starnes & Holt, P.A.