Case: Document 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 18 of 191 PageID #:926 Exhibit Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 19 of 191 PageID #:927 Page 1 1 2 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS EASTERN DIVISION 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER SHANNON SPALDING and CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER DANIEL ECHEVERRIA, ) ) ) ) Plaintiffs, ) ) vs. ) 12 C 8777 ) CITY OF CHICAGO, et al., ) ) Defendants. ) 11 12 13 Deposition of NICHOLAS ROTI, taken before 14 Linda M. Benda, C.S.R., Notary Public, in the County of Cook 15 and State of Illinois, at One North LaSalle Street, Suite 16 3040, Chicago, Illinois, on the 3rd day of December 2014, at 17 the hour of approximately 9:30 o'clock a.m. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 20 of 191 PageID #:928 Page 2 1 2 APPEARANCES: 3 4 CHRISTOPHER SMITH TRIAL GROUP, by 5 MR. CHRISTOPHER SMITH One North LaSalle Street, Suite 3040 6 Chicago, IL 60602 (312) 432-0400 7 On behalf of the Plaintiffs; 8 9 DRINKER, BIDDLE & REATH, by 10 MR. ALAN S. KING 191 North Wacker Drive, Suite 3700 11 Chicago, IL 60606 (312) 569-1334 12 On behalf of the Defendants. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Page 4 1 (Witness sworn.) 2 NICHOLAS ROTI, 3 called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, 4 was examined upon oral interrogatories and testified as 5 follows: 6 EXAMINATION 7 by Mr. Smith: 8 Q Please state your name for the record. 9 A My name is Nicholas Roti, R-o-t-i. 10 Q And have you ever given a deposition before? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Approximately how many times? 13 A Over ten. 14 Q Were you a defendant in a lawsuit for any of those? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And how many times would you say that would be the 17 case? Well, let's stick with -- were any of them work 18 related? 19 A Most, if not all. 20 Q How many times did you give a deposition in cases 21 that you were a defendant? 22 A You know, I said over ten earlier, but it's right 23 around ten, I would guess. I don't know exactly. 24 Q Do you remember the names of any of them? Page 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 INDEX Page 5 1 A I mean, one was a car accident. I do not remember 2 the name. WITNESS: NICHOLAS ROTI Examination by Mr. Smith PAGE 4 3 Q Anything where you ended up going to trial? 4 A I went to trial once. 5 Q What case was that? 6 A I do not remember the plaintiff's name because it 7 was literally back in like 1987 or '8 or something. It was EXHIBITS Exhibit No. 1 8 a very long time ago. It was claimed he got injured during 80 9 an arrest. 10 Q What was your position? I'm not going to ask you 11 about the facts. 12 A I was a police officer. 13 Q Okay. Now, how are you currently employed? 14 A The Chicago Police Department. 15 Q As what -- in what position? 16 A I am the chief of the Bureau of Organized Crime. 17 Q And in terms of the narcotics unit, Unit 189, would 18 that be underneath the Bureau of Organized Crime or within? 19 A Yes. 20 Q How long have you been the chief of the Bureau of 21 Organized Crime? 22 A I've been the chief since 2010, so a little more 23 than four years. 24 Q And what position did you hold before that? 2 (Pages 2 - 5) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 21 of 191 PageID #:929 Page 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A I was -- immediately before this I was the deputy chief in the Bureau of Organized Crime. Q How long were you the deputy chief? A Almost two years, I believe. Q What was your position before that? A I was an acting deputy chief. Well, I think part of the time I was actually a promoted deputy chief, but I was a deputy chief in the detective division for a period before that, not very long, though, less than a year. Q What was your position before that? A The commander of the narcotics section. It used to be called the narcotics section as opposed to now it's the narcotics division, but that was only for approximately five months. Q What was the position before that? A Commander of the gang -- it's currently called the gang investigations division. I believe it was called gang intelligence section back then. Q And the position before that? A I was commander in -- I don't remember the exact name of the unit, but it was like a management accountability unit. That was for a short time, less than a year. Q What did you do before that? Page 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q This is not meant to be a quiz. A I was a police officer. I had various duties during that time from public transportation section to Seventh District tactical team to -- yeah, I mean, various assignments. Q Were you ever personally a police officer in a narcotics unit? A No. Q Were you ever a police officer in a unit that would be underneath the label organized crime? A No. Q Okay. And just so -- when did you start with the Chicago Police Department? A June of 1986. Q Did you have any career before you became a police officer? A I did some construction work, and I was going to college and school. I started when I was relatively young. Q All right. In terms of your position as -- well, first of all, you're aware that you're here -- did you review any documents in preparation for this deposition? A I reviewed the lawsuit. I reviewed -- I mean, what time period are you talking? Just in general? Q Yesterday, the day before. Page 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Before that I was the commanding officer/lieutenant in the -- for the homicide unit for Area 4, detective division. Q And before that? A I was the lieutenant commanding officer in the detective division for Area 2, robbery, burglary and theft section or unit. Q And before that? A I was lieutenant. I was a tactical lieutenant in the Second District. Q And before that? A I was the watch commander in the Fifth District at the rank of the lieutenant. Q And then before that? A I was a sergeant in the Sixth District. Q And before that? A I was a sergeant in public transportation section. Q Before that? A I was a sergeant in the Second District. Q And before that? A We're getting back into like the '80s and the early -Q You're doing much better than most people. A -- early '90s now. Page 9 1 A Not in the last few days. 2 Q Today? 3 A I mean, but over time when I tried to search for 4 documents that might be related to this, I definitely looked 5 at things via either E-mails when I was searching to see if 6 there was anything or I located the evaluations from way 7 back in 2008, things like that. 8 Q So did you find evaluations? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And did you find any other documents that you felt 11 were related to the lawsuit? 12 A The only thing that I have I think that's -- where 13 I actually have the document in hand would be a note where 14 Daniel Echeverria called my office, and the note was from my 15 administrative assistant to let me know that he called, but 16 I think that's the only like document that I actually 17 possess that I could think of. 18 Q Were you -- I believe Shannon Spalding who was one 19 of the Plaintiffs was assigned to narcotics in approximately 20 May of 2006. Would you have been with the narcotics unit, a 21 commander or a chief or had any assignment related to 22 narcotics back in 2006? 23 A No. I was assigned to the -- as the commander of 24 the gang investigations section or gang intelligence 3 (Pages 6 - 9) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 22 of 191 PageID #:930 Page 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Page 12 section, whatever. 1 Q And in terms of -- in terms of do you recall when 2 the first time you heard of Shannon Spalding was? 3 A Not exactly but in general, yes. 4 Q What do you recall? 5 A I recall that when I took over, which was sometime 6 in, I believe, March of 2008, like any business or any 7 organization that you become the head of, you do an 8 evaluation and you talk to your command staff, and I talked 9 to the lieutenants that were assigned at the time, and I 10 think that's the first time I heard of Shannon Spalding and 11 Daniel Echeverria. 12 Q Do you remember what lieutenants you spoke to about13 Shannon Spalding? 14 A I believe the -- I mean, there were several 15 lieutenants in the room, but I believe to my recollection 16 the lieutenants that informed me of information about them 17 was Lieutenant Robert Cervenka and Lieutenant Navarro. 18 Q Do you remember what Lieutenant Navarro said about19 Shannon Spalding? 20 A I don't recall exactly who said exactly what, but I 21 just recall that they brought their names up and it was 22 something along the lines of here's some people you need to 23 be aware of because they -- there's some issues with them 24 of them made comments. Q Did you speak to any other supervisor of Danny Echeverria or Shannon Spalding after you learned of that? A Not officially, not to my recollection. I'm not going to say I never did, but I don't recall in that time period where I really followed up on it. It just kind of went into my memory banks and as usual, I would, you know, let the lieutenants filter information up to me if there was any additional issues that arose. Q Did you document that conversation or information in any way personally? A No. Q Did you learn anything of Shannon Spalding or Daniel Echeverria's career prior to getting to narcotics? A No. Q Did you -- were you familiar with the Fentanyl case at all? A Well, yes. Q How were you familiar with that? A Well, there was -- there were several -- there was a couple different cases involving Fentanyl. There were joint -- the one main one that I recall, I was a commander in gang investigations, and the main portion of the investigation as far as the investigative angle into the Page 11 Page 13 1 personnelwise. They're not getting along with other people 1 voluntary manslaughter charges and things like that were 2 and their sergeants, and we had to separate them not too 2 basically run out of gang investigations. Often gang 3 long ago before I got there. That's not what they said. 3 investigations would work hand in hand with narcotics 4 That's what I'm saying. They had to separate them. They're 4 section on cases where we would utilize narcotics officers 5 on two different teams right now and just generally that 5 to assist in making buys of narcotics, and they would be 6 they did not think very highly of them at the time. 6 what we would term a joint investigation. 7 7 Q Do you remember specifically anything Lieutenant 8 Navarro said about either Danny Echeverria or Shannon 9 Spalding? Q Were you familiar with Shannon Spalding's role in 8 any Fentanyl investigations? 9 A No, not specifically. There were -- she was not a 10 A Specifically, no. 10 case officer in that case. She didn't run the case. I know 11 Q Do you remember anything specifically Lieutenant 11 that. But she might have been involved in some way. Her 12 Cervenka said about Shannon Spalding or Danny Echeverria? 12 team might have been involved to make buys, but there was -- 13 13 she or Dan were not the case officers. They were not MR. KING: Just object to the form of the question. I 14 think he's testified to several things already but -- 14 running the case. 15 BY MR. SMITH: 15 16 16 to the narcotics unit? Q In terms of I'm correct that you're saying that Q Were you aware of how Shannon Spalding first came 17 generally you didn't know which one said it but -- 17 A Was I aware? 18 A I think they both -- 18 Q Yes. 19 Q -- do you remember anything specifically from 19 A At the time, no. 20 Cervenka personally? 20 Q Did you ever become aware? 21 21 A Not specifically. People have said she didn't go A No. I believe they were both commenting because 22 when they were split up, I believe one went to teams that 22 through -- they didn't go through the normal process of 23 would be under Cervenka's supervision and one went to a team 23 applying and having an interview I've been told. I've been 24 that would be under Navarro's supervision, so I believe both 24 told that they worked on some cases when they were in a 4 (Pages 10 - 13) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 23 of 191 PageID #:931 Page 14 Page 16 1 different unit, either two or housing, that they assisted, 1 2 and I've been told that someone took a liking to them and 2 names? If I probably really think about it, but I could say 3 asked that they be assigned there or something, but I don't 3 that numerous people over the years have been reassigned out 4 know the detail. It's purely hearsay. 4 of the Bureau of Organized Crime for various reasons from 5 5 performance to personnel and personality issues to lack of Q Do you know who the person was that took a liking A During my time as chief, can I remember individual 6 to them? 6 teamwork to misuse of department equipment. You name it. I 7 7 mean, virtually -- we have a transfer order every police A At one point I heard Deputy Chief Michael Cronin, 8 but -- 8 period, and almost every period some people go out and some 9 Q Did you hear anything as to why? 10 A No. I mean, not specifically. 10 9 people come in. 11 Q In terms of as chief of the organized crime 11 you first came in that was being identified as a problem Q Can you think of any name that was told to you when 12 division, what -- how often would you review officers, 12 officer besides Shannon Spalding or Daniel Echeverria? 13 individual officers in terms of their kind of reviews and 13 14 work history? 14 on -- there was evaluation forms that were done, and people 15 15 were evaluated on those forms and some were not evaluated A As chief of the Bureau of Organized Crime, seldom, A Off the top of my head I cannot, but I do know 16 if ever, would I look into the details of an officer's work 16 highly, and almost all of those people were subsequently 17 history. There's several layers of supervision in between 17 moved out of narcotics at some point. 18 me and the officers, and there's systems in place and I 18 19 would rely on the commanders and then possibly even a deputy 19 division did you hear any other -- other than in that 20 chief who are stationed over at Homan Square, as opposed to 20 initial period where you were being given information about 21 me who is stationed at headquarters, to fill me in and 21 general things within the narcotics division, did you ever 22 update me if there's any issues with officers. 22 hear again of any problems with either Shannon Spalding or 23 23 Daniel Echeverria? Q So there wasn't any -- there wasn't scheduled 24 meetings where you would go over each officer in the unit 24 Q A After you became chief of the organized crime Well, I mean, the question will be hard to answer Page 15 Page 17 1 and say how's this person doing or how's this person doing? 1 because I think you're mixing different time frames and 2 2 different commands because when I heard about them, I was in A No. You know, in the Bureau of Organized Crime 3 there's literally like close to a thousand police officers 3 narcotics, which was only for about five months, and it 4 assigned there that would be ultimately under my supervision 4 wasn't until two plus years later that I became the chief of 5 as the chief. So it's definitely broken down. At the most 5 organized crime. 6 sometimes we do case reviews, but that's not -- doesn't get 6 7 into individual officers. It's just we review the cases 7 that first initial conversation you had with lieutenants 8 that they work on. 8 including Navarro and Cervenka between the time you first 9 Q After -- with respect to in the initial -- when you Q Okay. And did you hear anything further between 9 came to narcotics and the two years later when you became 10 initially got there, other than Shannon Spalding and Daniel 10 the chief? 11 Echeverria, did you hear about any other potentially problem 11 12 officers that you were supervising? 12 narcotics, after the first initial assessment I recall that 13 13 at some point there was an issue with Officer Spalding where A Yeah. I mean, I can't recall exactly who but, you A Well, during that five-month period that I was in 14 know, when you come in -- like I said earlier, when you come 14 she was making a buy and I don't recall the details, but 15 in and take over a new command, people generally try to get 15 something happened where it necessitated backup and 16 you up-to-date on what the issues are and what the potential 16 enforcement officers to come in. Backup officers, which we 17 problems might be. I will say that the issues with Officer 17 call enforcement officers, did come in. And then there was 18 Spalding and Officer Echeverria were brought up relatively 18 an issue that the surveillance officers who we call the 19 quick, I mean, right in the beginning, and they kind of rose 19 eyeballs that are supposed to be watching her were not the 20 to the level where I recall it as opposed to some of the 20 first ones in. The surveillance officers were the first 21 other personnel. Now -- yeah. 21 ones in. I mean -- I'm sorry. The enforcement officers 22 22 were the first ones to assist her, and I recall being told Q Can you remember any other personnel that you have 23 been told were -- was a problem during your time as the 23 by Lieutenant Navarro and I believe in person and then 24 chief of the organized crime division? 24 subsequently -- via E-mail first and then later in person 5 (Pages 14 - 17) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 24 of 191 PageID #:932 Page 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 that Shannon Spalding was upset about the incident and that she was, as it was put in their terms, bad mouthing the other officers and bad mouthing the team and it was causing a derision and -- but that they were going to handle it and let me know, and I assumed they handled it because I didn't hear much about it after that. That was while I was still the commander. Later, which is -- remember this is only a five-month time frame. Not long after that is when I was called by Tina Skahill and almost immediately after the call from Tina Skahill they were assigned to work, which was supposed to be on an as-needed/part-time basis with the F.B.I. on the corruption case, but really after that I didn't -- the only time I heard of them is when lieutenant came in to tell me that he hasn't heard from them and they have not been showing up to the narcotics section to work. And then I subsequently called Tina Skahill, told her she would have to detail them out of narcotics because I didn't -- I couldn't keep track of what they were doing, and she did, and then after that that's the last I really heard of updates on them. Q Just so it's clear for the record, what was your position during that five-month period? A Commander of narcotics. Page 20 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 been identified or known as a police officer at that location on a previous occasion before the buy? A That's the first I heard of that. Q And did you instruct in any way the lieutenant to figure out why the -- where the surveillance team was during this buy? A In the lieutenant's E-mail to me he stated that they were going to look into it and follow up on it. Q Did you ever hear any follow-up in terms of what the result of that investigation was? A I'm sure I did but I do not recall the details. Q Did -- were you aware that Shannon Spalding was a victim of a robbery in that incident? A I was not aware -- I am not aware of that, no. Q Would you have thought that Lieutenant Navarro would have made an effort to figure out why his team failed to or the surveillance failed to assist her when she was being robbed? MR. KING: Object to the form of the question, calls for speculation, lack of foundation. You can answer if you understand it. THE WITNESS: Well, I think in the way you're depicting it, it's not 100 percent accurate because the -- there's eyeball surveillance people that technically get as close as Page 19 Page 21 1 Q What period are we talking about roughly? 1 they can to observe what's going on and call -- they call in 2 A March 2008 to about August 2008. 2 for help. I mean, the system has backups in it, and the 3 Q And in terms of did you -- that incident with -- 3 enforcement officers did go in to assist her, so it wasn't 4 that you heard about from Lieutenant Navarro, did you feel 4 like the whole system did not work. There was some question 5 Shannon Spalding did anything wrong in that incident? 5 that Shannon felt and others maybe felt -- I don't know -- 6 6 that the enforcement officers were closer and -- I'm sorry. A I don't really know because all I -- she didn't do 7 anything wrong operationally that I know of. I believe the 7 The surveillance officers were closer and might have been 8 issue with her that was brought to me was just that her 8 able to assist her, but the enforcement officers who tend to 9 comments and some of her actions post incident were causing 9 be just a little farther away because they're identifiable 10 some turmoil among the team in the instant, but again the 10 as police officers were the first ones to actually get to 11 lieutenants and the sergeants, that's typically something 11 the scene and then assist her and make the arrest, but I 12 they would handle. We have those issues from time to time. 12 don't -- all the details that you're bringing up I'm not 13 As far as operationally whenever there's anything that does 13 aware of. 14 not go perfectly, we always do an assessment after with the 14 BY MR. SMITH: 15 lieutenants and try to figure out what went wrong and what 15 16 we can do to improve. So I think the -- that's it. 16 thoughts or positions, I assume you're just -- you didn't 17 17 talk with Shannon about that, correct? Q In terms of were you aware of what the so-called Q In terms of -- okay. The -- in terms of Shannon's 18 bad mouthing comments were? 18 A Correct. 19 A Not specifically. 19 Q You're just making an assumption of what you 20 Q Did you ever learn why the surveillance team was 20 thought might be the issue? 21 not on the scene first? 21 22 A No. 22 Lieutenant Navarro. 23 Q Did you ever learn that Shannon Spalding had 23 24 indicated before the buy that she was an individual who had A Q Yes. An assumption based on what I was told from Do you know if that incident was -- when you were 24 speaking with -- in the initial time you spoke with 6 (Pages 18 - 21) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 25 of 191 PageID #:933 Page 22 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Lieutenant Navarro and Cervenka about Spalding and Echeverria, did you have any -- did you have a review, a performance review with you at that time? A No, and to be clear, the meeting was not about them. It was a meeting just about general operations and personnel in narcotics. Q Do you know if there was a review, a written review at that point in time, the point in time that you -- did you find any written review for a period that was generated before that meeting indicating anything wrong with either Shannon Spalding or Danny Echeverria? A Before that meeting, which would have taken place in March, no. I had them do a review of all the personnel in narcotics. Sometime around that meeting I told them to do a review, which I received the results of sometime in April of 2008. Q Do you know if the incident with the -- that you spoke to Lieutenant Navarro about with the buy that went wrong was before or after that review in April? A I don't know for sure, but I think it can be nailed down if it had to be. Q By looking at the documents? A Documents. Q And do you know of any specific incident that Page 24 1 A Oh, no, it wouldn't have been before that because I 2 didn't even know who they were before that. 3 Q Do you believe it was after that? 4 A Yeah. Sometime after that, I believe. 5 Q Do you know -- do you have any idea how long after 6 that? 7 A I don't. 8 Q Do you know if it was during the time that you were 9 a commander of narcotics? 10 A I really don't recall where I -- who told me or 11 when. 12 Q So in terms of -- you indicated that you then at 13 some point around -- during your time you were commander, I 14 believe, that you contacted Tina Skahill to have Shannon 15 Spalding and Echeverria reassigned? 16 A Well, the technical term would be detailed at that 17 point. 18 Q Okay. And in terms of do you recall approximately 19 when that would have been? 20 A It was approximately four weeks after -- between 21 four and five weeks after Tina Skahill called me to ask if 22 they could work -- if I would allow them to work with the 23 F.B.I. on that case, and it was sometime in -- I don't 24 recall exactly but it was sometime around maybe -- you want Page 23 Page 25 1 either Navarro or Cervenka told you about at your initial 1 to know when I called her? 2 meeting where they came up about either Shannon Spalding or 2 Q Yes. 3 Daniel Echeverria that they spoke of? 3 A When I called her would be sometime in July, I 4 4 believe. A I don't recall offhand of a specific incident that 5 they told me. I don't recall at this point. 5 6 6 you that was on the phone? Q Do you know how you learned about how Shannon Q 7 Spalding was brought into the narcotics unit in terms of the 7 8 information that she might have gotten favor -- I think it 8 the table was from a phone call from Tina Skahill to me. I 9 was McGrath. Do you know how you learned of that? 10 MR. KING: Just object to the form of the question, A Okay. And, first of all, when Tina Skahill called Yes. The first time I heard this ever was put on 9 was in my office at Homan Square in narcotics. 10 Q And did you -- what did Tina Skahill say to you? 11 misstates his testimony. 11 A In essence but not verbatim she said, Nick, there's 12 BY MR. SMITH: 12 a case that we're working on and the F.B.I. is working on, 13 Q Do you understand the question? 13 and would you allow Shannon Spalding and Daniel Echeverria 14 A Do I understand the question? 14 to work periodically with the F.B.I. because they have an 15 Q I can ask it more generally. Do you know how you 15 informant that the F.B.I. wants to use to further their 16 got information about how Shannon Spalding came to the unit? 16 case. 17 17 Q Did you ask her any questions about it? 18 exactly, but someone said -- told me that -- and I think it 18 A Not specifically that I recall, but she said -- she 19 was -- I don't know. I really don't know. I'd have to 19 told me I knew it was a corruption case. I know it was some 20 really try to guess to remember who told me. 20 type of corruption case, and I knew she said she wanted to 21 21 keep it quiet obviously. That was -- she didn't want like A Q You know, it was a long time ago. I don't recall Do you know if it was at the time of that initial 22 meeting or conversations with Navarro and Cervenka? 22 everyone to know, you know, what was going on there, which 23 A I don't think so. 23 is common with all our cases whether it be corruption or a 24 Q Do you know if it was before that? 24 regular investigation. You try to keep that very 7 (Pages 22 - 25) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 26 of 191 PageID #:934 Page 26 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 compartmentalized. Q When you say corruption case, are you indicating that you knew it was an investigation that somehow had something to do with another Chicago Police Officer? A Yeah. I'm pretty sure I knew then, but I definitely knew a few days later when the F.B.I. came to see me. Q So -- and did you have any idea of what like area the officer that was being investigated would have been working in? A From Tina Skahill? Q Correct. A I don't think so. I think later when I talked to the F.B.I. maybe I had an idea. Q Did you tell anybody about your conversation with Tina Skahill at that point in time? A I told -- the only people I told, which I didn't tell them the details of the conversation, but I told them because, of course, people don't just not show up to work or disappear. You have to have a reason why. So I told their -- I told the lieutenant, Cervenka, I believe, that -because I think by that time Navarro might have been assigned somewhere else. So I told Cervenka that there's -that those two were going to be working with the F.B.I. on a Page 28 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Cervenka, was that over the phone or in person? A I'm pretty sure it was in person, my office. Q Do you know if anyone else was in for the meeting? A No. Just him. Q And what system did you set up for checking in with -- when they would go to the F.B.I. to work with the F.B.I.? A I didn't set up a specific system. I told Cervenka that they were to notify him when they weren't going to show up to work with their teams at the CPD. Q And was it to be written or documented in any way? A No. Q And in terms of was it just to be a phone notification or an in-person? A A phone notification, but I didn't specify that, to be honest with you. I just told them they're supposed to notify him. Q Do you know if there were any records kept of that? A I don't believe there was. Q In terms of the F.B.I., you indicated that you spoke to them about two days after the Skahill call? A Somewhere within a week. I don't remember the exact amount of days. Q Do you remember who it was -- Page 27 1 case, but they're to call you -- they're to call you when 2 they're not going to show up here to work so that we could 3 keep track of when they're here and when they're not here. 4 Q Was this -- 5 A But I didn't tell him why. I told him I can't tell 6 you what the details are, and their sergeant isn't to know. 7 All he's to know -- well, actually they had two different 8 sergeants, which was part of the problem because they 9 weren't working together. So I said their sergeants can't 10 know. All you got to tell the sergeants is they're working 11 on a special project. Someone wants to use a CI or 12 something, and periodically they're not going to be working 13 with their team. 14 Q And do you remember who the two sergeants were back 15 then? 16 A Yeah. I believe one was Kevin Johnson and one was 17 either Roderick Robinson or Roderick Watson. I'm not 100 18 percent sure. 19 Q And did you have any conversation with them about 20 their reassignment? 21 A No. 22 Q Or detailing? 23 A No. 24 Q And in terms of when you had the conversation with Page 29 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Yes. Q -- who came to you. Who was it? A Agent Patrick Smith and Agent Julie Anderson. Q Did they -- where did they speak with you? A In my office. Q Did they contact you by phone before coming? A I'm sure they did, yeah. Q Do you remember having any conversation at that point in time on the phone? A No. They just said they want to come and talk to me about, you know, the case and something and what they were going to be doing. It was probably more of a courtesy than anything. Q Did you have any conversation with either Shannon Spalding or Daniel Echeverria about the F.B.I. coming to see you? A No. Q Did you call Tina Skahill and let her know that the F.B.I. was coming? A No. Q So who was present for the meeting you had with them? A Just me and those two. Q What did they say to you? 8 (Pages 26 - 29) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 27 of 191 PageID #:935 Page 30 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Page 32 A They basically told me, and Patrick Smith did most 1 of the talking as I recall, that they wanted to thank me for 2 letting the two officers work with them. They -- he told me 3 that they had a case. It's been going on for a long time, 4 but there were some snags in the investigation, and this is 5 my term. This is in essence, not verbatim, and that they 6 needed to shore up some parts of the case so they could 7 bring it to charging, and to do that they needed an 8 informant that worked in the area that the case was taking 9 place and that Spalding and Echeverria had a CI that 10 operated and lived and worked in that area, so to speak, 11 that they really just needed the CI but that Echeverria -12 Spalding and Echeverria told them that the CI would only 13 work for them and with them, so that's why they needed 14 Spalding and Echeverria so that they could use their CI. 15 I -- without getting into exact details, I 16 knew it was a corruption case. I knew it was about officers 17 that were stealing money from -- probably from dope dealers 18 and gang members, and they told me they were only going to 19 need them on a part-time basis. They didn't need them 20 full-time. They only needed them -- when I say them I mean 21 Spalding and Echeverria. They only needed them when they 22 needed to utilize the informant. They gave me their cards. 23 I said call me if you got -- any issues come up. It was all 24 told Tina that I think it would be best if she officially detailed Spalding and Echeverria to IAD as opposed to this kind of ad hoc favor that we had because we thought this was going to be a shorter term thing and just being used once in a while, coupled with the fact that I was uneasy because it came to my attention that Spalding and Echeverria were not showing up to work at narcotics, and I could not verify through the F.B.I. that they were with them all the time, so we don't operate like that. We don't have officers that just go out without supervision and no one knows where they're at. So I told Tina since I can't really properly supervise them from here, you need to take them, which she said -- and I told her at that point about -- that the F.B.I. told me that they were only going to use them part-time, which she told me in the first place, and also that I did subsequently recontact Agent Smith and ask him if he was utilizing the CI and Spalding and Echeverria every day, which he told me, no, he wasn't. So at that point Tina agreed and she had them detailed out. Q Anything else said in that conversation? A The one to Tina? Q Yes. A No, just basically what I said. I mean, that I was very uneasy and I didn't -- I was very uneasy. I could not Page 31 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 very cordial. It wasn't very long, and that was it. Q In terms of -- and this was while you were commander, correct? A Yes. Q And then did you document that in any way? A No. Q And in terms of did they indicate to you that this was related to Public Housing South? A You know, I can't recall exactly. I had an idea of the basic area that this investigation was, but I didn't know like exact addresses and I -- they gave me an idea basically in their comments. I mean, I've been a policeman in the city for a long time. I knew it was projects. I knew it was kind of south. I knew it wasn't Cabrini-Green, so I kind of had an idea where it was. Q Did you tell anybody about that meeting? A At the time, no. Q At any point in time within a year of the meeting did you tell anyone? A I don't know. I mean, not -- no, not while the investigation was going on, no. Q Did you tell Tina Skahill, for instance? A I did -- you know what? That's correct. I did in a subsequent phone call to Tina Skahill -- I forgot -- I Page 33 1 account for their time, and I couldn't let this arrangement 2 go on any longer in its present form and she would have 3 to -- if she wanted -- they wanted to keep it going they 4 needed to be detailed so that a supervisor that, you know, 5 had knowledge of the investigation could actually supervise 6 them and know where they were every day and account for all 7 their time. 8 Q Did you make any efforts to verify with the F.B.I. 9 that Shannon Spalding or Daniel Echeverria were working with 10 them on the days they weren't showing up for work? 11 A Yeah. As I stated in that earlier long answer that 12 I called Patrick Smith, and I asked him if he was using -13 utilizing them and working with them every day because I 14 have not -- they have not been coming to work at Homan 15 Square. He told me no. He was only using them on a 16 part-time basis. 17 Q In terms of did you ever have a conversation about 18 a specific day? 19 A No. We didn't get into the details. 20 Q In other words, did you ever say, hey, they didn't 21 come in on Friday, were they with you on Friday? 22 A I did not get into the details with them. 23 Q So there was never a day where you determined that, 24 oh, they weren't working at all even though they were 9 (Pages 30 - 33) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 28 of 191 PageID #:936 Page 34 1 claiming to be working? 2 A No. The investigation never went that far. I was 3 told by the lieutenant that, hey, I have not heard from them 4 or seen them in several -- in a couple of weeks, do you know 5 if they've been working with the F.B.I. every day, and I 6 said I don't know. I will call. That's when I called 7 Patrick Smith. 8 Q All right. And the -- in terms of did you know 9 back when you -- at any time before you were the commander 10 of narcotics did you know a Sergeant Ronald Watts? 11 A I know the name. I don't know that I know him 12 personally. I don't think so. I think I know his face 13 maybe because he was on TV, but I think I've crossed paths 14 with him. I used to be a sergeant in the Second District 15 and I don't know for sure, but I think he might have worked 16 in housing at the time or something. I don't really know. 17 Q And the Second District is the district where 18 Public Housing South would be? 19 A It covers part of the -- what used to be the Robert 20 Taylor Homes were in the Second District and Housing South 21 covered parts of that as well as some other -- Ickes and 22 some other -- not Ickes. It's another housing project. I 23 can't think of the name of it but -24 Q In terms of when were you at the Second District? Page 36 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 I said, that's what I mean by not directly because, you know, a sergeant is a sergeant for everybody, anyone that's a PO, but you don't directly supervise them unless a need arises, but in general, though, no. Q As a tactical lieutenant what kind of a unit are you supervising? A Those are general -- tactical officers are officers in the district. You're assigned to the district, and they are officers that work in quasi civilian dress. They can easily transform themselves to be identifiable police officers, to put themselves in a dress manner that they can be not technically undercover but they can blend in and do surveillance, and they generally focus on gangs, narcotics, burglaries, shootings, any of the major problems. They're kind of a district's problem solvers as opposed to a regular beat officer who answers calls that come in and is in uniform. Q Do you know Ernie Brown? A Yes. Q How long have you known Ernie Brown? A I made lieutenant with Ernie Brown, but I didn't know him in 1998. I mean, I don't recall ever really knowing him to where you could say like I'd have a conversation with him till years later when he was -- he was Page 35 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A I was assigned to the Second District as a sergeant in -- sometime in 1994 for over -- I want to say till -- and this is all documented somewhere, so I don't know the exact dates. I mean, we could pull personnel files, but I want to say sometime till around '96-ish for two years or so, and then I was -- I went somewhere else. And then later I went back to the Second District as a tactical lieutenant and that was sometime around -- and again this could be verified. I don't have the exact dates. I want to say around 2000-ish. Q For how long? A I was there as a tac lieutenant for at least a year, maybe a little bit longer. Q As a sergeant did you supervise in any way any public housing officers? A No. Q And as a -A Not directly. Q When you say -- well, as a sergeant did you ever work with Public Housing South teams? A No, not in -- I don't recall any joint operations but, you know, you show up on a scene of a shooting or something. There might be some public housing officers there and there's some of your officers, but I don't -- like Page 37 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 the -- he came back as the chief of organized crime, and I think I was the deputy chief at the time, and that's where I got to know him. But, I mean, I knew of him because there's only so many people at certain ranks, but I didn't really know him. Q Did you ever tell Ernie Brown about your conversations with the F.B.I. concerning Shannon Spalding and Danny Echeverria? A Ernie Brown was not in organized crime at that time. The chief was Frank Limon and due to the nature of the thing, I don't recall even mentioning it much to Frank Limon to tell you the truth. If I did, it was just like, hey, we got some guy -- but I don't recall specifically mentioning it to him, and Ernie Brown wasn't -- he was -- I think at that point he got -- for some issue he was a -- he was not in organized crime. I'm not sure where he was. Maybe in a detective division maybe, but I don't know at that time. Q In terms of -- you mentioned detailing out. I mean, it is -- when you're a commander of narcotics or even in your current position, you're aware that sometimes officers who are assigned to narcotics are detailed out to other assignments? A Yeah. People sometimes get detailed out, detailed 10 (Pages 34 - 37) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 29 of 191 PageID #:937 Page 38 Page 40 1 in. Sometimes you might get detailed from narcotics to 1 2 gangs, you know, within the Bureau of Organized Crime. In 2 detail, where would the -- where would those people go? I 3 fact, it's kind of a messy system. I'm not really sure how 3 mean, would they come back to their prior assignments? 4 it developed over time. Details were meant to be temporary, 4 5 and at some point in the department they became long-term 5 of foundation. Are you just asking generally? 6 and were almost synonomous with reassignment. I know 6 7 currently in the last -- we're trying to clean up details. 7 vague. 8 We're trying to get away from that practice and just either 8 BY MR. SMITH: 9 assigning people or if it's a detail, it's only temporary 9 Q At the end of the detail, even if it was a long MR. KING: Just object to the form of the question, lack MR. SMITH: Let me withdraw it. It was a little too Q In terms of -- first of all, for an assignment 10 for a certain amount of days because of the nature that it 10 with, you know, a term like the summer assignment you spoke 11 is a little sloppy. 11 of, was there -- was any type of paperwork that was done to 12 12 get them back in their regular assignment, back in their Q Well, in terms of some details are clearly just for 13 a temporary period, correct? 13 narcotics unit? 14 A Yes. 14 MR. KING: Just object to the form as well. 15 Q I mean, it might be like a summer-type assignment? 15 MR. SMITH: Do you understand? 16 A Yes. 16 MR. KING: If you know, I guess. 17 Q And what is the normal -- can you give me an 17 THE WITNESS: In the example you're giving where there 18 example of a summer-type assignment? You know more than I 18 is a very defined term of the detail, no. They would 19 do. 19 usually just go back to where they came from because that 20 A The only ones I could think of offhand that are 20 was part of the agreement on that detail, and they'll 21 kind of like a -- set details, we used to -- I don't think 21 define -- and that defined -- a very defined detail. 22 we do anymore. We used to have what was called summer 22 BY MR. SMITH: 23 mobile where someone would get -- they pull people from 23 24 districts usually on a volunteer basis and assign them to 24 people get reassigned back into narcotics? Q When there wasn't a defined detail, how would Page 39 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 the lakefront for the summer months, but then after it was 1 over they'd go back to their districts. 2 Q Was there a procedure in place to -- in terms of 3 how procedurally they would be reassigned back to their 4 prior assignment? 5 A No. See, kind of the difference is is when -- as 6 opposed to what details developed into and what most details 7 are is like with summer mobile when they had that, it was 8 specified the day you signed up for it you will -- you know, 9 from -- and I'm guessing, say from June 1st to September 10 1st, you know, you'll be detailed to summer mobile, at which 11 point, you know, you go back to your unit of assignment. 12 Now, there's all kinds of other details where people get 13 detailed from the patrol division into narcotics, from -- or 14 organized crime or to any other unit or out of -- I mean, as 15 a matter of fact, I just cleaned up a detail long ago where 16 people were detailed in for over eight years into -- from 17 patrol their technical assignment was a district or the 18 detective division, and they were working in narcotics or 19 gang investigations for six, seven, eight years. And I -20 recently we've been making efforts to try to clean those up 21 because it's just -- details became synonomous almost with 22 assignments. There was almost no delineation between the 23 two, and it's not what they were meant to be. 24 Page 41 MR. KING: Just object to the form of the question. MR. SMITH: Or moved back in. Let's put it that way. THE WITNESS: Well -MR. KING: Again object to the form, lack of foundation. THE WITNESS: Kind of a hard question to answer because generally people from narcotics didn't go to details like summer mobile. So, I mean, you know, you're specifying narcotics, and I don't recall that ever, you know, occurring like that where they would go to a summer mobile detail. That's usually a district draw type of detail. BY MR. SMITH: Q So let's go to a district draw -- A And the reason is -- the reason is why it's a hard question to answer, because all of the units in the Bureau of Organized Crime are managerial units, which means they're not subject to the same contract provisions that people assigned in patrol, detective division, et cetera, are assigned to. We don't have -- you can't bid into narcotics. You can't get into narcotics, but I'm just saying narcotics in general, but any unit in organized crime based on seniority. It's all managerial. It's 100 percent managerial assignment, so that's why it's very hard to define in the terms. Q Well, how would it work if somebody was assigned 11 (Pages 38 - 41) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 30 of 191 PageID #:938 Page 42 Page 44 1 managerially to the narcotics unit, how would one be removed 1 2 from that assignment? 2 commander at the time. Some supervisor in vice mentioned it 3 3 to me, and I don't recall if it was Hector Rodriguez who was A Well, it kind of depends on time period a little A Originally -- I'm trying to think who was the 4 bit. About five years ago and earlier or more, literally 4 the commander or one of the lieutenants like Ozzie Valdez 5 people could be assigned there and if they were not working 5 maybe. Someone mentioned it to me, and then they called 6 out, they were not -- and even now to a point it's the same. 6 Mary Legittino over and she kind of told me about what 7 They could be assigned out of any unit in organized crime 7 happened, and she told me she had a CR number on him. I 8 based on the recommendations of the chain of the organized 8 said, okay, well -- 9 crime command. So generally it would be the commander up to 9 Q Who's Mary Legittino? 10 the deputy chief up to the chief, so -- and people are 10 A Mary Legittino is a police officer. She worked in 11 reassigned every day -- I'm sorry. Every period they're 11 vice and I came to know later was the mother of the 12 assigned out. 12 complainant in the CR number in question as well as the 13 13 mother of another police officer who is somehow involved in Generally in the last at least five years or 14 so there's been a little bit of a shift to where -- and I'm 14 the incident and had knowledge of it. 15 part of that to where we've been requiring a little bit of 15 16 extra documentation because even though it's a managerial 16 you to tell you about that? 17 unit, there have been people that have filed grievances and 17 MR. KING: Just object to the form. 18 said, well, I was moved out of there without cause, and so 18 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry if I said the name wrong. 19 we have to backtrack then. Now we make sure we have 19 MR. KING: Just object to the form and lack of 20 paperwork that delineates. It doesn't have to be a lot but 20 foundation. I don't think he testified who it was 21 at least shows that there are reasons, and it isn't 21 definitely. 22 arbitrary. I'm very firm on that. All the commanders know. 22 BY MR. SMITH: 23 It's been like that as I was a deputy chief ever. You have 23 Q Do you know why Rodriguez came to you? 24 to give -- you have to have a defined reason why you want 24 A No. I think someone came to me just because Q Do you know why Hector Rodriguez would have come to Page 43 Page 45 1 somebody -- we don't just move people out because we just 1 Officer Legittino was very upset about the incident, and I 2 don't like them. There has to be reasons. 2 believe that the complainant, her son, was just out of the 3 3 military and, you know, she was upset about it. It was Q In terms of you would agree if somebody was 4 assigned to the narcotics unit, 181, and they were detailed 4 almost like they mentioned it to me in passing, and it was 5 out to another assignment or detailed out outside the unit 5 such an odd type of incident, and I think they brought it up 6 that, managerially speaking, they were technically still 6 to me because of the fact that Spalding and Echeverria, you 7 assigned to the narcotics unit? 7 know, had a connection to organized crime and narcotics and 8 8 because of, you know, they were working there at one time. A Yes. If that was their assignment, they are 9 assigned -- that's their -- on paper assigned, yeah. 10 Q 9 In terms of in -- well, when you were moved or two Q What was your position at that point in time when 10 you heard about the CR? 11 years later when you became a chief -- 11 A I think I was deputy chief. 12 A That would be around 2010. 12 Q Of? 13 Q Around 2010, did you hear anything in between that 13 A Organized crime, I think, because, yeah, I was in 14 five-month period when you were commander and when you 14 the building, I remember. I was at Homan Square. 15 became a chief about -- more about Shannon Spalding or that 15 16 F.B.I. assignment or Danny Echeverria? 16 heard about it? 17 17 A In the time frame between there did I hear Q A Do you know if it was an ongoing CR at the time you I think I heard about it like -- as I recall, and I 18 anything? The only thing I recall hearing -- I didn't hear 18 don't know the date, but my sense is that I heard about it 19 anything about their work over there. I recall hearing 19 relatively soon after it happened, the incident happened. 20 briefly about the incident that resulted in the CR number 20 But then I didn't hear about it again until at least a year 21 where they -- there was some incident with Shannon Spalding 21 or more later when it came up through command channel 22 and a dog and some whole big mess with that. 22 review. The investigation came up through command channel 23 23 review and I saw it in my queue on-line. Q Do you know who you heard that about -- from 24 rather? 24 Q Were you a part of the command channel review of 12 (Pages 42 - 45) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 31 of 191 PageID #:939 Page 46 Page 48 1 that CR? 1 he lived in that neighborhood, and he probably grew up with 2 A Yes. 2 them, I guess, but -- so they informed me of this, and we 3 Q Did you do anything in connection with that command 3 get a confidential CR number. That CR number is sent 4 channel review? 4 through the defined chains up to IAD, and then IAD does what 5 5 they do. They investigate, bring in federal agents or A Well, you have options. You could concur or not 6 concur, and I concurred with the findings of the 6 whatever they do and, in fact, that officer is -- I know 7 investigation. 7 that one is not too long ago. That officer is currently 8 8 stripped of duty, and he's -- I don't know what he does. Q Did you in any way indicate that you had prior 9 conversations with Mary Legittino about the incident? 9 They usually put them on some kind of non-police function 10 A No. 10 while the case is pending. I can recall -- 11 Q Did you feel that that was any way a conflict in 11 Q In terms of that instance, do you know if there was 12 your being involved in the command channel review? 12 an investigation of that officer that had begun before that 13 13 time or -- A Not at all because I didn't do the investigation. 14 Someone else did. All I am signing onto is that the 14 A There was not. 15 investigation looks proper and the findings look proper and 15 Q -- was that the start of the investigation? 16 that was it. 16 A That was the start as is almost all of the ones 17 Q Was it -- 17 that I know of because we -- our officers come across it -- 18 A I didn't have intimate details of the incident 18 Q Do you know if that officer was a -- had any rank 19 beforehand. 19 beyond patrol officer? 20 20 A I believe he was a police officer. 21 people routinely come to you with information about CRs? Q 21 Q In other words, he wasn't a sergeant or higher? 22 22 A No. 23 generated a lot of CR numbers out of organized crime that 23 Q And was that officer under your supervision? 24 affected police officers, from corruption issues through 24 A The one who was stripped of duty? A Would -- in your position at that point in time did You know, it was not uncommon. I mean, we Page 47 Page 49 1 all kinds of different -- I was usually told about every one 1 Q Correct. 2 of them if I was around someone -- whether I was the 2 A No. He was in the fugitive unit, which is under 3 commander, deputy chief and sometimes even the chief. 3 the detective division. 4 Someone would tell me, you know, hey, we're working on this 4 5 case and we have what might be a corrupt police officer that 5 prosecution? 6 we're uncovering on our case and we're getting a 6 A I don't. 7 confidential CR number, and I would say okay. 7 Q Okay. And an additional example? 8 8 A I recall another similar case. We're again on a Q Can you tell me any others that are not active CRs 9 at this time? Q And do you know if there's any criminal 9 wire and gang members refer to, hey, call our officer or -- 10 A Do you want to know names? 10 I don't know what they say -- call our girl. One was a 11 Q Names. 11 female officer that was observed hanging out with gang 12 A I don't know offhand, but I know I could get it, 12 members and going in and out of houses and parties and we 13 the information, but there are -- I could give you examples. 13 got a confidential CR number on her. That was on the north 14 I mean, we'd be on a wire investigation where we're 14 side. And one that -- and there's dozens of these, but the 15 overhearing gang members and a couple that pop into my head, 15 one that stands out the most in my opinion -- and I actually 16 one was -- well, here's a recent one. I can't think of the 16 have her name because I actually handcuffed her, and she was 17 guy's name, but the guy actually worked in the fugitive 17 criminally prosecuted -- was along the same lines, a case 18 unit, and we were on an investigation into a narcotics group 18 where -- again another drug case. It was against the Mickey 19 and gang, the Conservative Vice Lords, that operated in the 19 Cobras street gang, and they were selling heroin, and there 20 11th District. And we -- on our overhears, we hear -- our 20 were some heroin overdoses resulted with that one, too. But 21 officers hear subjects referring to and then calling a 21 they were selling heroin in the Dearborn Projects, and the 22 police officer who works, as I said, in the fugitive unit 22 case was started at a low level but then it kicked into a 23 and they're asking him for information and asking him for 23 high level while I was the commander of gang investigations. 24 help and -- which -- in a corrupt manner like for -- because 24 And during the investigation it was uncovered that there was 13 (Pages 46 - 49) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 32 of 191 PageID #:940 Page 50 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 a female police officer who apparently had a relationship with one of the gang member drug dealers and was doing things illegally to try to help facilitate that drug conspiracy, and I actually handcuffed her and took her into custody and she was charged with federal drug conspiracy charges. Q Who was that officer? A Her name was Tashika Sledge, and I remember it because she's actually the daughter of a police officer that I worked with back in Englewood back in the '80s who I worked with on the tactical team there. So it was, you know, a friend. She was kind of a friend of mine but it was her daughter. Q When you say there was a low level investigation at one point and then it went into a high level investigation, are you referring to a low level investigation into the Mickey Cobra activity that went high level or a low level investigation into the activity of this female officer? A No. Low level into -- they didn't even know about the officer at the onset. That came later on wires and stuff. When I say low level I'm talking about street level, gathering information, you know, trying to put something together. When I say high level I'm talking about a coordinated effort with wire taps and surveillance and Page 52 1 they saw personally where one officer says I saw another 2 officer committing a crime involving narcotics or narcotics 3 related money. 4 A Well, I mean, they uncover that in their 5 investigations sometimes over listening to stuff over a 6 wire. I'm trying to recall if any -- I mean, you know, I'm 7 trying to recall if any of them fit that exact criteria that 8 you just laid out. 9 Q I'm trying to see if there's anything that wasn't 10 over a wire or heard over a wire that led to where an 11 officer said we need to make a CR against another officer 12 because I think they're involved in narcotics activity or 13 gang activity. 14 MR. KING: Just object to the form. Are you asking him 15 if someone's come to him personally with that information? 16 MR. SMITH: Come to him personally. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, I would say no with a qualification 18 that, A, I'm not saying it never happened, but generally as 19 I've been a commander or above in these situations, 20 generally the officer would go to his sergeant or lieutenant 21 and then the sergeant or lieutenant would then come to me, 22 so very seldom, if ever, did a police officer come directly 23 to me as a command member with information. We usually 24 follow the chain of command. Page 51 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 things like that. Q The coordinated effort was the time -- the other time you talked about where the officer was stripped, was that a coordinated effort? A Yes. Q Was it coordinated with the F.B.I. or DEA or any outside agency? A I believe that was. That was a joint federal and state. A lot of our investigations are joint federal and state. We have a very good working relationship working from both angles. Q And what about the -A But our officers are the ones who -Q -- Mickey Cobra investigation, was that joint in any way? A Yes. I recall that one was mostly our people, but we had DEA involved in it. Q And -- okay. In terms of have you ever had an instance where an officer -- one of your officers has come forward against another police officer for activity they saw in terms of either drug sales or stealing drugs where they actually saw with their eyes on the streets? A That they were selling drugs on the street? Q Not necessarily selling drugs on the street. That Page 53 1 BY MR. SMITH: 2 Q Well, do you know of any instances where an officer 3 under your command came to a sergeant and indicated that he 4 believed and had information that one of Chicago Police 5 Officers was selling drugs or involved in gang activity? 6 A I think there's dozens of those situations. Can I 7 recall them specifically? No, but even the ones that I 8 delineated to you were not federal agents bringing those 9 cases. Those were Chicago Police Officers who uncovered the 10 information, told their supervisors and then their 11 supervisors typed out a confidential CR number investigation 12 and sent them up the chain. 13 Q Were there any instances that you're aware of that 14 an officer came to a sergeant under your command about 15 information that he believed or she believed that a fellow 16 officer was involved in gangs or narcotics activity that was 17 not an instance that involved a wire? 18 MR. KING: If you can recall. 19 THE WITNESS: I think there has been, but I can't 20 recall. In fact, one of the cases is, I recall, of someone 21 on a surveillance. Yeah, as a matter of fact, yeah. 22 There's one of surveillance where I know our officers 23 observed a police officer working what looked like security, 24 and I can't really think of the exact parameters but 14 (Pages 50 - 53) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 33 of 191 PageID #:941 Page 54 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Page 56 security at a -- I remember it was a barber shop, but it was 1 very late at night past barber shop hours, and we were on 2 surveillance because they were having gang meetings in the 3 barber shop, and our officers observed what they knew -- one 4 of them knew the guy as a police officer, and then we 5 reported that. They reported that as well and got a 6 confidential CR number, sent it up. 7 BY MR. SMITH: 8 Q Do you remember who that officer was? 9 A I do not. 10 Q Do you know if that was any type of joint 11 investigation? 12 A I believe it was just our surveillance. The ones 13 that I'm talking of, dozens of them, some are just ours. 14 Some are joint. They're not all joint investigations. 15 Q Do you know if anything happened with that CR? 16 A I don't. It goes to the hands of IAD after that 17 point. 18 Q Did you have any conversations about the CR 19 relating to the dog with any other supervisors after you 20 were spoken to by -- sorry. I forget her name -- in terms 21 of the woman who was the mother or related to one of the 22 people involved in the dog incident? 23 A I don't recall that I did, not until much later 24 dog, just got home from the military or something, took the dog. If I recall, Spalding wanted the dog back. He gave it back to her. Then she wanted to get rid of it again so gave it back to him again. In the meantime, he had it for a while. He got -- she -- it got veterinary stuff like shots or dog license, things like that, and then she called him back and wanted it back for the second time stating that her daughter was all upset, very upset and needed the dog back, and we were under the impression the daughter was a child but the daughter was an adult child and that the guy said -- the guy who possessed the dog said I'm not giving it back to you this time, you know, I got the license for it, I paid for veterinary bills, et cetera, et cetera. The dog has become part of my family, you know, I'm not giving it back. And then I think the thing that was really the big issue with Officer Legittino and frankly one of the reasons why I believe that that CR number was sustained through most of the process was that at some point late at night like -- and I don't know the exact time that Officer Spalding and Officer Echeverria show up at this guy's house on the north side in police garb, like wearing a vest and et cetera and are knocking on his door. He refuses to answer the door. They call for a supervisor from the district. He shows up Page 55 Page 57 1 anyway. 1 and at some point he's knocking on the door telling him open 2 2 the door, give the dog back or I'm going to have you Q Did the woman give you any details about what 3 happened in the dog incident? 3 arrested. He calls his mother. The mother says, listen, 4 4 just give the dog up, we don't want you to get arrested, A The officer, if I recall, just gave me a brief 5 overview basically that she was upset, though, and she 5 it's going to hurt your chances coming on the police 6 thought that -- I think the reason she talked to me is she 6 department, et cetera, et cetera. So that's kind of just 7 thought that the incident -- she felt that she -- that they 7 the basic overview. I mean, I definitely might be 8 were wronged but they had to give the dog up back to Officer 8 intermingling some of the facts that I learned later when I 9 Spalding because she was afraid that if she didn't, her son 9 reviewed the investigation. It's very hard to delineate 10 who was the possessor of the dog at the time was trying to 10 what I knew five years ago and what I knew three years ago, 11 get on the police department, and she felt that somehow this 11 you know, but -- 12 whole incident would hurt his chances of becoming a police 12 13 officer and that was one of her main concerns, I recall, and 13 officer? 14 that might have been why she brought it up to me. 14 A I don't know. 15 Q And that was Mary Legittino who said that? 15 Q Okay. So other than that incident with the dog, 16 A Yes. 16 did you hear of any other events relating to Danny 17 Q Did she say anything else about it? 17 Echeverria or Shannon Spalding after your time as commander 18 A Well, she told me the brief overview that -- and 18 in narcotics? Q In terms of did that young man ever become a police 19 again this is not verbatim but it's from a 19 20 five-plus-year-old memory that Shannon Spalding had a dog 20 have testified to some but -- MR. KING: I just object to the form. I think he may 21 she wanted to get rid of. Somehow it came into the 21 BY MR. SMITH: 22 possession of her son, I believe, through word of mouth 22 Q Did anybody make any complaints to you about them? 23 through the police department, and it came out as is anyone 23 A Not officially. 24 looking for a home for this dog. The son was looking for a 24 Q How about unofficially? 15 (Pages 54 - 57) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 34 of 191 PageID #:942 Page 58 1 A I just -- I recall later, much later and when some Page 60 1 from a building? 2 of this stuff was going on back and forth with where they 2 3 were going to be assigned and things, and during that whole 3 lack of foundation. 4 time frame I recall the issues were brought to my attention 4 THE WITNESS: Just answer? 5 of Shannon Spalding showing up at Homan Square to meet with 5 MR. KING: If you feel like you can answer. 6 this Officer Hernandez, I think, who was on the guard duty 6 THE WITNESS: Well, I mean, would it be appropriate? If 7 desk and she was doing something there. I also remember 7 a subject -- if an officer is not -- is supposed to be 8 hearing of an incident when she was -- they were assigned 8 working and is not supposed to be in an area and is impeding 9 to -10 Q MR. KING: Object to the form, calling for speculation, 9 other people's work, it's appropriate for a supervisor to Can we slow down for a second? In terms of the 10 take action to stop that. I don't know the term banned. I 11 guard duty desk, that she was showing up at the guard duty 11 never really heard of that before, banned from a building. 12 desk, did you hear anything further of what that meant, or 12 I've never heard that term used before in -- 13 did you have an understanding of what that meant? 13 BY MR. SMITH: 14 14 A Well, there's a 24-hour desk. Then there's a guard Q Would you expect that supervisor to make a CR, 15 shack, I should say, where you're supposed to be watching to 15 another officer was impeding another officer from working? 16 make sure that only authorized people are let into the 16 MR. KING: Same objection to the form. 17 building and let into the parking lot, and I believe that he 17 THE WITNESS: Supervisors take supervisory action every 18 was assigned to that desk, and I believe she was there in 18 day multiple times a day to -- I should say corrective 19 the desk -- in the area of the guard shack and as I recall, 19 supervisory action that does not result in the form of a CR 20 I believe then she was told by Commander O'Grady -- I don't 20 number or anything else because there is a level of 21 know if directly or through a supervisor or whoever that, 21 corrective action that can be taken by a supervisor verbally 22 you know, she shouldn't be in that area or, you know, on 22 or through other means. If something rises to the level of 23 duty -- not on official duty because you're impeding what 23 a CR number, then it's usually something pretty serious. 24 he's supposed to be doing, and this isn't like -- and this 24 Page 59 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 is my terms but just the general -- this isn't like a social hour, you know, where you just hang out and, you know. Q Did you learn that from O'Grady? A I think so. Q And did -- were you informed that Shannon Spalding was banned from the building entirely? A No. MR. KING: Just object to the form of the question. BY MR. SMITH: Q Is that a no? A Yeah. Q Have you ever heard that she was banned from the Homan Square building? A In the complaint. Q Before the complaint? A No. Q Have you ever talked to O'Grady and asked him whether he ever banned her from the building? A No, not specifically, no. Q When you say not specifically, what do you mean? A I just mean I don't want to -- I don't believe so, put it that way. I don't recall ever talking about that specifically. Q Would it be appropriate for an officer to be banned Page 61 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 BY MR. SMITH: Q In terms of you were about to say another incident besides the -- I believe you were about to say there was another complaint you heard of -- regarding either Danny or Shannon other than the desk guard incident. A I don't remember how I heard it. There was something and I really don't recall how I heard it. There was something along the lines of that when they were assigned to the inspection division, which is an offshoot of IAD, that -- and this is after the point of when there was the issue of whether or not they would come back to work in narcotics. They were working in the inspection division, I believe. It's somewhere in that gray area of transition that they were taking it upon themselves to come to Homan Square, which is where the narcotics unit and the organized crime units are housed, and they were taking it upon themselves to pick that location to do some type of inspections, enforcement action. I really don't recall who told me about that. I think multiple people saw them in the parking lot looking at -- inspecting cars or something, and again why I hesitate to bring it up is because I don't have all the facts as far as who told me what, but I remember that somehow there was a conversation and that they were said -- well, you know, they were -- somehow it was being 16 (Pages 58 - 61) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 35 of 191 PageID #:943 Page 62 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 done in a vindictive manner to get back at O'Grady and possibly me, so that's why they were focusing there in an effort to embarrass us or something. So I recall calling someone and asking them are they assigned to work in this area inspecting, are they assigned to do -- and they said no, and they said they'll look into it. It was someone in inspections that was working there or it -- maybe it might have been Juan Rivera. I'm not 100 percent sure. I called someone and asked them are they supposed to be -- is that their duties to be here, you know, inspecting vehicles and things like that on multiple days, and they told me no, and then that was the last I heard of it. I guess someone must have talked to them and they didn't come back there. Q So you heard it from a person, but you don't recall who you heard it from at this point? A Uh-huh. Q But you then called Juan Rivera to ask about it? MR. KING: Object to the form. It misstates his testimony. THE WITNESS: I'm not 100 percent sure. BY MR. SMITH: Q You're not 100 percent sure, but you think it was Juan Rivera? Page 64 1 Sergeant Chester might have told me, Tom Chester, I believe, 2 but I'm not 100 percent sure on that. Someone told me that 3 because he resigned, and plus I work with the F.B.I. a lot, 4 a lot of my task force, so I might have heard it from one of 5 the F.B.I. supervisors later, but it really was just -- when 6 Officer Spalding and Echeverria went on TV and held a press 7 conference, a lot of people talked to me. I don't remember 8 who, so -9 Q Did -- what did you learn about Patrick Smith in 10 terms of with respect to the problems or the reasons he 11 resigned? 12 A Nothing. All I know is something -- just the way 13 you framed it. There were some issues and he resigned. I 14 don't know the details. 15 Q Did you learn anything about a lost recording 16 device during the time relating to either Patrick Smith or 17 Shannon Spalding or Dan Echeverria within the F.B.I.? 18 A No. 19 Q Did you learn anything in terms of misappropriated 20 funds with respect to Patrick Smith? 21 A No. 22 Q Did you learn anything further about -- and when I 23 say -- did you learn anything further from anyone within the 24 F.B.I. about the investigation into Sergeant Watts? Page 63 1 A I don't know because I -- I don't know if that's 2 why we -- I don't know 100 percent. I thought it might be 3 Juan Rivera. I might have asked him are they supposed to be 4 working there, and he might have said I'll look into it, but 5 I'm not 100 percent sure because I might have called someone 6 in the inspections division, but that's why I hesitated to 7 bring it up because I don't really have all the facts. I 8 don't really recall. 9 Q Okay. And then in terms of -- in between the 10 narcotics -- well, between the first time you heard from the 11 F.B.I. and the time frame of where you -- two years later 12 when you became the chief, did you hear anything else from 13 the F.B.I. about the investigation? 14 A No. 15 Q At any point later did you hear from the F.B.I. 16 more about the investigation? 17 A No. 18 Q Did you at any point in time hear that Patrick 19 Smith had problems with the -- that the F.B.I. was having 20 problems with Patrick Smith, the F.B.I. agent? 21 A You know, I know of that but I didn't hear about 22 that till much later like even maybe recently. 23 Q How did you hear about that? 24 A I think I heard about it from -- I think maybe Page 65 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A No. Q Did you learn anything about Danny Echeverria or Shannon Spalding's performance with respect to their duties with the F.B.I.? A A little bit from Sergeant Chester who was at the time IAD's liaison and worked on the F.B.I. corruption task force, but I don't think he was intimately involved in that investigation, but he did have, I think, some working knowledge of it, and I believe that he basically stated that, which -- that they were there to handle the confidential informant and to shore up parts of the case, which is basically in line with what Patrick Smith and Julie Anderson told me in the beginning, to shore up some parts of the case so they could bring the case to charging. They were not undercover in the case. They were -- they handled the CI. Q When did you have that conversation with Chester about -A I have no idea. Q Was it after the lawsuit? A I think so. Q And -A Well, I'm not sure. Actually I'm not sure because there's -- a lot of time passed in there. 17 (Pages 62 - 65) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 36 of 191 PageID #:944 Page 66 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q And was there specifics about who was the targets of the investigation? A Definitely not before the indictments were made public. Q Did you ever learn what officers were targets of that investigation? A No. Oh, did I ever? Q Yes. A Oh, yeah. I mean, it was on the news. Q Did you ever learn if any other officers besides Mohammed and Watts were targets of the investigation? A No. Actually this is the first I'm hearing if that's even a -- that was even a possibility. Q Did you ever hear anything relating to the team members who worked for Sergeant Watts? A No. Q Have you ever been made privy to the information that the F.B.I. uncovered during their over ten-year investigation? A I'm sorry? Q Have you ever been made -- given access to the information that the F.B.I. uncovered during their over ten-year investigation of Sergeant Watts? A No, I have not been. Page 68 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 specifically, but subsequently, I guess, they were detailed to 543, which is detached services, but I don't know. I mean -Q Were you aware of what they were going to be doing in -- with respect to -- in that detail? A Well, that detail was to facilitate them working with the F.B.I. on a full-time basis to my knowledge. Q Was it your understanding that they were supposed to be doing anything else at the time you had the conversations with Tina Skahill? A No. Q Did you ever learn that they were supposed to have any other activity in the outside detail at 543 other than working with the F.B.I.? A No. Q Just so it's clear, what is 543? What would you call it? A 543 is not technically a unit as some of the others are. It's a -- it's called detached services and people are assigned/detailed to detached services when they work at various -- when they work in various jobs that are outside of the Chicago Police Department. So, for instance, say they work on the mayor's detail or they work process servers for the Corporation Counsel, things like that. In general Page 67 1 Q Do you know anyone within the Chicago Police Page 69 1 people are not assigned to detached services to my knowledge 2 Department who would have access to that information, if 2 to work on a task force with the F.B.I. because I have a lot 3 anyone? 3 of task forces that work with me and they stay detailed or 4 4 assigned to whatever their units are and then work there as A I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what 5 access IAD has or not. 5 a task force officer. So I'm not sure the genesis -- whose 6 6 idea it was or why they were assigned to detached services. Q Were you ever told by anybody from the F.B.I. that 7 Shannon Spalding or Dan Echeverria did a good job, bad job, 7 All I can say is if it was me, I would have detailed them to 8 mediocre job? 8 IAD and then had them work in detached -- I mean had them 9 A No. 10 Q Anybody within Chicago Police Department ever tell 9 work with the F.B.I., but you would have to ask them. 10 Q In terms of did you hear any -- of any -- from any 11 you that Shannon Spalding or Danny Echeverria did a poor job 11 Chicago Police Officer personnel that neither Danny or 12 with the Watts investigation or helping the F.B.I. out? 12 Shannon failed to do any type of work while detailed to -- 13 A No. 13 failed to do any type of assignment or job that they were 14 Q I believe sometime after -- obviously sometime 14 supposed to do in connection with special detail when they 15 after they were detailed to 543 in terms of that 15 were assigned to 543? 16 conversation with Tina Skahill you had way back like about a 16 17 month after the Patrick Smith and you were informed that 17 stretches of time. 18 they were working with the F.B.I., they were -- you had the 18 19 conversation with Tina Skahill and they were eventually 19 Danny and Shannon were going to be taken off of special 20 assigned to Unit 543; is that your understanding? 20 detail, 543? 21 A Yeah. I mean, they were -- 21 22 Q Or detailed to 543. 22 was making that decision process. 23 A All I know is they were detailed out of narcotics 23 Q Who did -- when did you learn it? 24 to where -- I thought they were getting detailed to IAD 24 A I don't know when I learned it specifically, if I A Q A No. I barely ever heard of them during the vast At some point in time did you become aware that Not until after like -- not during that -- whoever 18 (Pages 66 - 69) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 37 of 191 PageID #:945 Page 70 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 even did. I mean, I don't know. Q Sometime in April of 2011, was there -- were you present for a meeting with -- first of all, do you know Beatrice Cuello? A I do. Q And you already indicated you know Commander -sorry. I don't want to understate a title. Commander O'Grady, you've indicated you know him? A Oh, yes. Q Do you know a Jim Jackson? A Yes. Q And you've indicated you know Juan Rivera? A Yes. Q Were you ever involved in a meeting with Beatrice Cuello in particular relating to Shannon Spalding or Danny Echeverria's assignment in narcotics and the removal from the detail at 543? A Short answer is no. Q Is there a long answer? A Yes. Q What's the long answer? A I do not recall there ever being a meeting, at least not that I was involved in that was specifically held to address any issues with Shannon Spalding and Daniel Page 72 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 privy to that. But Superintendent Hillard was less than pleased to hear that the two officers were not -- were insubordinate, I should say, and were not -- you know, well, were insubordinate, and he said, well, send them -- pull them back from their detail and send them back to patrol. I don't recall then what happened after, but I know that at some point Juan Rivera talked to Superintendent Hillard and was able to somehow mitigate that issue and they were not sent back to patrol. But around that time, I believe -- and again this is -- I'm kind of outside of this circle looking in. They were assigned to do something else, which might have been when they went to the inspections division. Also because you mentioned his name, at those meetings O'Grady was not present that I can recall. It was a deputy chief, chief, deputy superintendent kind of meeting. I don't recall commanders being at that meeting. Q Was Jim Jackson at that meeting? A He was the first deputy superintendent at the time and he was at that meeting. Q Was Juan Rivera at that meeting? A I believe Juan was the deputy chief in IAD, but I think Tina Skahill -- you know, at that time Juan might have been the chief because there was a lot of change. MR. KING: Just tell him if you can recall. Page 71 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Echeverria. The only meeting that I could think of or a couple of meetings that I could think of that came up along -- that their names were brought up in was a meeting that then Acting Interim Superintendent Hillard called and it was not a meeting just about this, but during the meetings when he took over for the time period, they were looking for manpower, and he held a meeting and wanted anyone who had a task force officer where officers were assigned to outside agencies, we had to come up with a list of all of our officers that were assigned outside of the Chicago Police Department. So it was a meeting about task force officers, and I don't even know if it was specifically just a task -- it was a meeting about many operational things in the police department. One of the things was task force officers. I do recall being present at some point later where Beatrice Cuello mentioned to then Interim Superintendent Hillard that there was an issue with two officers, and I felt she -- again they were -- that they were -- she felt that -- someone in her chain of command felt they are insubordinate and they wouldn't tell her exactly what they were working on. I don't know in this time frame if that is before or after the investigation into Sergeant Watts was completed or not. I don't know. I'm not Page 73 1 THE WITNESS: I don't recall, but I think he was at the 2 meeting. 3 BY MR. SMITH: 4 Q How about Tina Skahill? Was she at the meeting? 5 A I think so. 6 Q And how about anyone else you remember being at the 7 meeting? Was Debra Kirby at the meeting? 8 A She should have been, but I really can't place her 9 there. I can't recall. But as a deputy superintendent, she 10 normally would have been. 11 Q And were the officers -- 12 MR. KING: Don't guess. 13 BY MR. SMITH: 14 Q Were the officers' names mentioned in terms of who 15 the insubordinate officers were? Were they mentioned by 16 name? 17 A I'm not 100 percent. I believe so, but I'm not 100 18 percent. 19 Q I mean, otherwise would you know -- would you have 20 known who she was talking about? How would you have 21 connected this incident to -- or this meeting to Echeverria 22 and Spalding at this time? 23 A Well, you know, it's hard when you go back that 24 many years to -- when things are happening to put them all 19 (Pages 70 - 73) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 38 of 191 PageID #:946 Page 74 Page 76 1 in the same exact time frame of when you heard something and 1 2 when you didn't but, you know, I don't recall. I mean, 2 after you told him that? 3 there was a lot of things going on at that meeting. The 3 4 meeting -- that was just one part of the meeting. That 4 mentioned -- Tina Skahill might have been there, too, at one 5 meeting wasn't focused on them, so I'm sure Bea Cuello 5 point, and I remember telling him, listen, they don't get 6 probably mentioned their name or I'm relatively sure, but 6 along with the people there. They were -- they were on the 7 I'm not 100 percent. 7 verge -- before they left to go to IAD, they were on the 8 8 verge of being -- they already separated to work on two Q In terms of did you ever know of a time where after 9 they had been detailed out to 543 that Danny Echeverria or Q A Did Rivera ask you any further follow-up questions I don't recall. I mean, I believe he might have 9 different teams. They had -- at least Spalding had a bad 10 Shannon Spalding were trying to get back into the narcotics 10 review and they were on the verge of being under some 11 unit? 11 scrutiny there as to whether they were going to stay there 12 A They never approached me. They never sent any 12 or not to start with. Then coupled in with the discrepancy 13 correspondence to me. I don't know that they sent any 13 in whether they were working or not or showing up to duty, 14 correspondence or approached anyone in our chain of command. 14 coupled in with that CR number, we said we really don't want 15 The only time that I -- this even came up was I believe Juan 15 them back, so that was it, and they just said okay. 16 Rivera said do you want to take them back to organized 16 17 crime. I believe I checked with O'Grady, do you want them 17 Danny Echeverria was -- would have been under scrutiny 18 back. O'Grady said not really. They don't get along with 18 before he was assigned to the detail 543? 19 the people here. None of the sergeants want them on their 19 20 team. And based with the knowledge that I happened to know 20 Spalding's partner, and at some point they were separated by 21 and the fact that I usually take the commander's 21 the supervisors in that unit. We don't generally separate 22 recommendations, I agreed and told Juan, hey, Juan, we 22 partners unless there's some type of issue. 23 really don't want them back. 23 24 24 that put him under scrutiny? Q Do you know when that conversation happened? Q A Q In terms of what was your understanding of why Well, because he -- at some point he was Shannon Was there anything specific to Danny Echeverria Page 75 1 A After this -- whenever this task force officer 2 meeting was, after that sometime. So whatever dates those 3 were, so you could narrow that down, which I don't know 4 exactly, but that would have been in between the time 5 that -- that would have been before Jody Weis took over, so 6 whenever Superintendent Jody Weis -- right around the time 7 he took over when Hillard was leaving and Jody Weis was 8 coming in, somewhere in that time frame. 9 Q But that was after -- shortly after the meeting 10 where Beatrice Cuello mentioned that there were two 11 individuals who were insubordinate? 12 A Yeah. To my knowledge, I never heard of them 13 wanting to come back or asking to come back until the issue 14 was brought up with Hillard, and then there was a spotlight 15 on them as to what they were doing and then when they were 16 then given some type of work assignment, which apparently 17 they didn't like and they wanted to come back. But when 18 they -- they never asked to come back before that, to my 19 knowledge, and they never asked me to come back. They -- it 20 was strictly through an unofficial question from Juan Rivera 21 in the hallway, do you want them back. I said no. 22 Q Did Rivera tell you anything as to why you should 23 take them back? 24 A No. Page 77 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A I think mostly his association with Shannon and that they were partners and that there was some type of disruption on the team. The team -- and I don't recall what or why, and it actually happened before I got there, so -Q Did you ever hear from any team members or any -that Danny Echeverria was a disruption to a team? A Not -- no, I never heard from any team. The team members don't talk to the commanders about that kind of stuff. Q How about from any supervisors that Danny Echeverria was considered by the team to be a disruption? A I would say that in my opinion -- well, I can't say -- to your specific question I would say no. Q You had not heard anything specific about Danny Echeverria? A Not about him specifically as opposed to them as a team. Q In terms of when you say them as a team, did you hear anything about him doing anything personally in connection with that team or them doing anything together specifically that disrupted the team? A Most of the negative information and evaluation centered around Officer Spalding. Q Did you hear any specific negative evaluation of 20 (Pages 74 - 77) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 39 of 191 PageID #:947 Page 78 1 Officer Echeverria? 2 A I don't think so. 3 Q Was there any discussion with Officer Rivera 4 bringing back Danny Echeverria and not Shannon Spalding? 5 A No. 6 Q Were you aware of the fact that at some point in 7 time Danny Echeverria and/or Shannon Spalding were assigned 8 or told to go to the academy, Unit 144? 9 A I didn't know or hear about that until, I think, 10 maybe it was in the complaint. 11 Q In terms of the incident where they were banned 12 from the building where you heard about the -- what else -13 did you hear anything else about the incident involving 14 O'Grady and any instructions relating to Shannon Spalding 15 not to interfere with the officer in Homan? 16 A No, just what I said. He mentioned it. It wasn't 17 some big thing that we dwelled on. He told me that 18 people -- supervisors told him. He went and observed or 19 took action or something, and then he called her supervisors 20 and told them if she's on duty, she should be out working, 21 she shouldn't be here or if she's not on duty, she shouldn't 22 be here bothering an on-duty officer, and they said, okay, 23 we'll talk to her or whatever, and that's the last I heard 24 of it. Page 80 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 they were going to try and embarrass you? A I believe O'Grady told me that he heard from someone else and he didn't necessarily tell me who that, hey, I heard they're going to try to embarrass us. Q What time period would you say that was that you heard that from O'Grady that they were going to try and embarrass you? A It was after the -- it's sometime like when they were like in that transition period around the whole moving from IAD to the fugitive unit, you know, when we -- like right around after when we said, well, we don't want them back in organized crime, right around that time frame. I don't know the date. Q I'm going to show you what we'll mark as Roti Deposition Exhibit No. 1 for identification. (Document marked as requested.) BY MR. SMITH: Q Go ahead and take a look at what we marked as Roti Deposition Exhibit No. 1 for identification. A Uh-huh. Q Do you recognize that document? A I do. Q Is that the message you were talking about that you kept on your desk? Page 79 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q Did you hear anything about -- in connection with 1 that incident concerning either Shannon Spalding or Danny 2 Echeverria being taken off of fugitive assignments or jobs 3 in fugitive apprehension? 4 A No. 5 Q I think you mentioned early on that you found a 6 document that you believe related to the case concerning a 7 phone call or a notation of a phone call. Do you recall? 8 A Yeah, yeah. From Echeverria? 9 Q Right. 10 A Yeah. 11 Q When did you do the search for the documents that 12 you were talking about, the -- specifically the reviews and 13 for that message, when you found the message? 14 A Well, the message, I think, I kept or I had on my 15 desk. I didn't really put it in a file. I just had it on 16 my desk and I didn't get rid of it because at that point it 17 just seemed like this thing was -- whatever they were trying 18 to do -- and we had -- I had heard from someone that -- I 19 had heard something that they were going to try to embarrass20 us or do something. I said, you know, I better keep some of 21 this stuff, so whatever. I don't know. And then I -- a 22 search, I don't know. 23 Q Did you -- do you know who you heard that from that 24 Page 81 A Yes. Q And that's the message you were talking about that was related to Daniel Echeverria? A Yes. Q And you'd agree that at the top it says date of March 2 -- March 2, '12, or -- you believe that refers to March 2nd, 2012? A Yes. Q And do you see there the name at the very bottom of the message? A Yes. Q Sue? A Yes. Q Do you know who that is? A Yes. Q Who is that? A That is Police Officer Sue Ballauer, B-a-l-l-a-u-e-r. She was an administrative assistant working in the chief's office at the time. She has retired. Q And how long did she work with you? A Sue Ballauer worked for me -- with me in an administrative capacity since sometime in like 2005, 2006. Q And were you aware that she had a husband or at one time had a husband who was a police officer? 21 (Pages 78 - 81) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 40 of 191 PageID #:948 Page 82 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Yes. Q Who was later convicted of crimes? A Yes. Q In the Marquette 10? A Yes. Q And in terms of -A She was divorced from him, I believe. Q Do you know if the divorce was before or after he was indicted? A I don't. I didn't know her back then. Q Did you know her husband? A No. Q All right. So first of all, do you recall receiving this message? A I recall getting this piece of paper, yes. Q Did you make any effort to call Daniel Echeverria back after receiving this message? A Definitely not. Q Why not? A Multiple reasons. First of all, when it was brought to me, Officer Ballauer was extremely upset in the manner that Dan -- Daniel Echeverria talked to her and talked on the phone. She was so upset that she handed it off to the sergeant, Sergeant Maryet Hall, whose name is Page 84 1 bordered on insubordination. So, yes, I would not return 2 his call. I don't -- if people want to see me as the chief, 3 they'll come and see me in my office in person, like I would 4 to any one of my superiors on the job, the superintendent, 5 the first deputy, et cetera. 6 Q When did you first meet Daniel Echeverria? 7 A I don't know if I ever formally met him. 8 Q When did you first meet Shannon Spalding? 9 A I don't know that I've ever formally been 10 introduced or met her. I've seen her, talked to her, not 11 even talked to her, seen her. They've never come to talk to 12 me. They didn't -- a lot of times when people get detailed, 13 the officers will come in, even as commander, and say, hey, 14 you know, Commander, just letting you know thanks, we're 15 going to be going to this detail, but I've never talked to 16 them and I've passed them in the hallways at headquarters 17 several times over this time period, and never once have 18 they tried to talk to me. 19 Q And in terms of did Daniel Echeverria ever scowl at 20 you before March of -- March 2nd of 2012? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Would you have any idea why Daniel Echeverria would 23 have scowled at you before March 2nd of 2012? 24 A I believe so. Page 83 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 actually referenced in that letter, who was his 1 administrative sergeant in Bureau of Organized Crime. The 2 sergeant tried to talk to him. He would not tell her why he 3 wanted to talk and basically was threatening me through her 4 saying he better talk to me, he's going to want to talk to 5 me. And so I actually contemplated getting a CR number on 6 this if I wanted to be vindictive or try to do something 7 that I for whatever was trying to be framed, like this is -8 I would have done that but I didn't. I let it go because I 9 figured, well, he's upset. But third of all, as a chief of 10 the Bureau of Organized Crime, this is not a proper protocol 11 for him to talk to me. It's not a proper way for him to 12 talk to me. It borders on insubordination and if he -- I 13 have a pretty open policy. If he would have came to my 14 office or her at any time during the -- since the beginning 15 of this, that this started, I would have been happy to talk 16 to them. They never once tried to talk to me until their 17 detail was changed and went to -- wherever they went, out of 18 IAD. 19 And as a matter of fact, I passed them in the 20 hall many times over the years, and I've actually said hello 21 to them and they have ignored my hello and walked right by 22 me, and actually Officer Echeverria has scowled at me, for 23 lack of a better term, numerous times in the hallway, which 24 Page 85 Q What would that have been? A I believe that they were upset when I called Tina Skahill and told her that I didn't believe -- that they were not showing up to work in narcotics and that when I called Patrick Smith, Patrick Smith said, well, I'm not using them every day. And again if I wanted to be vindictive, I would have got a CR number at that point, but I didn't. I just wanted to handle the situation, and I told Tina, you're going to have to detail them so that they have supervision. Ever since then whenever I ran into them, I would get that look. She would look straight ahead. I said good morning to them several times, and she would look straight ahead and not acknowledge me, and he would give me what I would term a scowl. Q Do you know if Tina Skahill ever told Daniel Echeverria or Shannon Spalding about that conversation relating to their assignment with the F.B.I.? A I have no way of knowing that, but I do know they must have known something was changed when they had their detail changed from being in -- being detailed to narcotics to then that 543. They must have known there was some reason for that. Q In terms of the note itself, first of all, your handwriting is nowhere on this, correct? 22 (Pages 82 - 85) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 41 of 191 PageID #:949 Page 86 1 A Correct. 2 Q You see a phone number, (773) 962-1269? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did you believe that to be Daniel Echeverria's 5 number? 6 A No idea. I guess, yeah. 7 Q Based on the way the message appears? 8 A Yes, based on the message. 9 Q You didn't recognize that as a number you knew? 10 A Correct. 11 Q It then says Daniel Echeverria, correct? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And then it says wanted to talk to you but would 14 not tell me why, started swearing on phone, correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And the next sentence then reads said he got 17 dumped. Did you have an idea what Daniel Echeverria may 18 have been referring to when it said he got dumped? 19 A No. 20 Q You didn't believe that that had something to do 21 with the fact that he was no longer a member of the 22 narcotics unit? 23 A I mean, he didn't get sent back to patrol, which 24 generally when someone -- when you use the term dumped, that Page 88 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 accommodating. Q In terms of did you direct anyone to call Daniel Echeverria back after this? A No. Q Did you ever show it to anyone at any point in time before this lawsuit? MR. KING: You're referring to Exhibit 1? MR. SMITH: I'm referring to Exhibit 1, yes. THE WITNESS: I mean, the only -- I mean, Sue Ballauer, Sergeant Maryet Hall and me. I don't recall if I showed it to -- I don't -- I didn't show it to anyone officially like as far as a complaint or anything like that. I just figured he was upset. Again I was going to just let it go, and that was it. BY MR. SMITH: Q Did you ever tell Juan Rivera about the call you received or the message you received about Daniel Echeverria? A I don't recall mentioning it to him but that's not to say I might not have. After the lawsuit came out that we never had a meeting but, you know, you have an off the cuff conversation. I might have said it but I don't even recall saying it to him. I don't want to pigeonhole myself in saying I didn't because I don't remember. Page 87 Page 89 1 means you go from a specialized unit back to patrol on a 1 Q Before the lawsuit did you mention it to him? 2 beat car. He was still in specialized units, so I don't 2 A I do not recall mentioning it to him. 3 know. I didn't know all the details of what he was -- what 3 Q Did you mention it to O'Grady? 4 was going on in his head. So, I mean, I knew that it 4 A I might have mentioned it to him. I'm not 100 5 probably referred to something about him not coming back to 5 percent. 6 narcotics but -- 6 Q Why would you have mentioned it to O'Grady? 7 7 A Well, I think it's pretty pertinent to the fact Q So as you sit here today, do you think back then 8 you believed that it had something to do with him not coming 9 back to narcotics that he got dumped? 10 A 8 that we knew he did not want them back in the unit based on 9 his recommendation from his sergeants and his lieutenants I can only assume that, yes, or surmise that. I 10 and I assume based on their recommendations and some past 11 don't know, whatever is the right word. 11 history, and we knew that Daniel and Shannon were the center 12 12 of this discrepancy with coming back or not coming back, so Q So if the word swearing on the phone wasn't on 13 here, do you believe you would have called him back? 13 I think it was pertinent that that was something -- like I 14 14 said, it wasn't an official meeting. I probably at some A I think if it was a respectful call to me without 15 all that in there and not to mention my administrator was 15 point told him, you know, Echeverria called me the other day 16 quite upset at the call, yeah, if he would have said please 16 and was swearing at Sue Ballauer on the phone, and probably 17 call me back, I need to discuss a matter with you, I don't 17 that was it. I don't recall the exact details of the 18 see why I wouldn't. I'm pretty open. I could bring in 500 18 conversation, but I do believe I mentioned it to him. 19 people that could tell you that I'm very respectful to 19 20 police officers, and people come in to see me in my office 20 to you at that point? 21 all the time. If I'm in the middle of eating lunch or 21 A I think if -- no. 22 writing a report, they say -- my secretary will say, hey, so 22 Q Were you ever shown any arrest -- data concerning 23 and so would like to say hi to you, they come right in, hi, 23 arrests that Echeverria or Shannon Spalding made in terms of 24 how are you, how are you doing, all the time. I'm very 24 like how many arrests they make per a period of time while Q Do you remember James O'Grady saying anything back 23 (Pages 86 - 89) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 42 of 191 PageID #:950 Page 90 Page 92 1 working in narcotics, that sort of thing? 1 A Again I think she came on the job in 1986, but I 2 A No. 2 never really crossed paths with her in 20 plus years until I 3 Q Just in terms of -- I think we're close to it now 3 was in the command staff, so sometime after 2005, you know, 4 being done, but just in terms of the people -- Juan Rivera, 4 but again I don't socialize with her, you know, but I just 5 when did you first meet him and under what circumstances? 5 know her. I've probably known who she was for many years. 6 6 I think she made lieutenant the same year I made lieutenant, A I think Juan Rivera came on the job the same year I 7 did in 1986, but I didn't -- you know, I know of people. 7 but I'm not sure. It was a big class but -- so I've known 8 You know them. We never worked together. We never worked 8 her for many years who she was, but there's probably been 9 in the same units together. We were never partners, so I 9 slots of 20 years I didn't talk to her. 10 don't socialize with him or I've never actually even talked 10 11 to him outside of work that I could recall, so I've known 11 or Shannon Spalding? 12 him. If you want to say who Juan Rivera is, I've known him 12 13 since '86, I think. I think that's -- he came on the job 13 to her about this at all. 14 the same year I did. 14 15 15 investigation of Watts? Q In terms of conversation obviously with your Q A Q Have you ever talked to her about Danny Echeverria No, I never talked -- I don't recall ever talking Did you ever talk to her about the F.B.I. 16 attorney present you don't have to speak of, but did you 16 A No. 17 ever talk to Juan Rivera about this lawsuit outside of the 17 Q You already mentioned James O'Grady. How did you 18 presence of your attorney? 18 first know James O'Grady? 19 19 A Yeah. I've never spoken to him with my attorneys A James O'Grady did come on the job in 1986 as well. 20 present, and I've spoken to him briefly. We never had a sit 20 I knew his name because he happened to be in the same class 21 down meeting about it or anything, but it was mostly, I 21 with a guy who was my partner for a while, so I somehow knew 22 would say, maybe commiserating like can you believe they 22 who he was because of that, but again he worked on the north 23 went on TV and said that or -- you know, but Juan was -- 23 and like west side. I always worked on the south side in 24 didn't really -- Juan is very -- doesn't talk a lot, so he 24 the years coming up, and I didn't really get to know him to Page 91 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 didn't really talk about it. Just kind of an off the cuff, 1 hey, did you get the lawsuit today, you know, they said -2 they said they did this and I don't think they ever did 3 that. You know, it would be me talking. He would say I 4 don't know. We never got into a deep factual conversation 5 about the case. 6 Q What did you say that they claimed they did that 7 you didn't believe they did? 8 A I was paraphrasing like just -- like, for instance, 9 I could actually pick out a couple of things. Like for 10 instance, they said they -- like in the news conference and 11 stuff that they were undercover and that their identities 12 were given out. Well, A, they were never undercover in that 13 investigation. Undercover entails that they would have been 14 a facilitator between some of the direct conversation or 15 direct hand-to-hand transactions with the target of the 16 investigation, which they were not. Just some of the things 17 that they -- that came out in the complaint and on TV that 18 were in my estimation fabrications. 19 Q Anything else beyond that? 20 A No. There was no -- no. 21 Q Do you know Debra Kirby? 22 A Yes. 23 Q How long have you known Debra Kirby? 24 Page 93 where I could say I know him better than average until I became the commander of narcotics is probably when I first started to get to know him because he was a lieutenant there for a while. And then when I moved up to deputy chief, he became the commander of narcotics, so then he stayed as the commander of narcotics through those years till I went to chief, so I got to know him in those years. Q In terms of James O'Grady, when you first became commander of narcotics, did he tell you anything about Shannon Spalding or Danny Echeverria at that point? A I don't think so, no. I don't think they were under his supervision. Q Did you ever speak to James O'Grady about the lawsuit outside the presence of your attorney? A Yes. Q What did you talk about? A Just a little bit of commiserating again some of the facts of the case that we thought were just -- thought were outlandish in some ways, the fact that we were being painted -- and he was very upset that he couldn't believe he was actually being accused of things and being sued by fellow police officers, commiserating a little bit about, you know, trying to take supervisory or corrective action and, you know, how it kind of got turned around and just, 24 (Pages 90 - 93) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 43 of 191 PageID #:951 Page 94 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 you know -- really that's kind of the main gist of the conversations. Yeah. MR. KING: Don't guess. BY MR. SMITH: Q Did you ever talk about anything in terms of the complaint indicating that people were calling Spalding and Echeverria rats? A Yeah, actually because we thought -- because I don't know if I'm accused of that or not. I don't recall, but I know he was accused of that and I remember again it would almost be like commiserating but I was saying, well, you'd have to be a heck of a hypocrite to call them rats because you worked in IAD for a while yourself, didn't you, or something like that. He said yeah. And I said, and me, I've had the role in the arrest of police officers myself on as or more important of cases than that, you know, just kind of like a commiserating, you know, type of conversation but -- and to say why would I call them rats -- and especially we were saying because I thought somewhere it says that, you know -- I don't know. Maybe like that they said that Juan Rivera said that O'Grady said that or something like -- so he called them rats in front of the chief of IAD. That doesn't seem very credible or something like that. Page 96 1 have been in here. Was there any talk about the banning 2 from the building with O'Grady when he talked about the 3 lawsuit? 4 A No, not about the lawsuit, just that -- when we 5 talked briefly about it. 6 Q Do you know Kevin Sadowski? 7 A I do not know him personally. I think I know who 8 he is but I don't know him. I think I could pick him out 9 but I'm not sure. 10 Q Do you know a Lieutenant Deborah Pascua, 11 P-a-s-c-u-a? 12 A I know who she is, but I don't recall ever having a 13 conversation with her in my career. 14 Q Do you know a police commander, Adrian Stanley? 15 A Yes, but again I don't know if I've ever had a 16 conversation with her either in my career. 17 Q Do you know a Chicago police sergeant, Maurice 18 Barnes? 19 A I do. 20 Q How do you know Maurice Barnes? 21 A I never really worked with Maurice but at one point 22 when we were young police officers, we both worked security 23 at the stadium I think is where I first met him, and I've 24 just kind of known him over the years, say hi if I see him. Page 95 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q When you say you were involved in a more important 1 arrest potentially than of a fellow officer, potentially 2 than Echeverria and Spalding, what were you referring to? 3 A Specifically I guess in that case I was referring 4 to that Tashika Sledge case where she was actually charged 5 with federal narcotics conspiracy -- drug conspiracy as 6 opposed to -- I don't know all the details of the case. 7 What's the -- Sergeant -8 Q Watts. 9 A -- Watts except for I thought it was like official 10 misconduct and theft and things like that as opposed to like 11 an ongoing conspiracy but -12 Q Were you under the impression that the Watts matter 13 wasn't about an ongoing conspiracy? 14 A Well, I knew it was long, but I thought it was -15 to my knowledge, it was that he was stealing money and 16 extorting gangbangers and drug dealers as opposed to 17 facilitating the distribution of narcotics. I could be 18 wrong but that's just what I thought. 19 Q Have you ever heard of any rumors that he was 20 involved in homicides? 21 A No, I never heard that. 22 Q Did you talk with O'Grady about the allegation 23 relating to -- let me make sure it's in here. It might not 24 Page 97 Q Did you ever talk with him about Shannon Spalding or Danny Echeverria? A I did not. Q Did you ever talk with him about the lawsuit again outside the presence of your attorney? A I have not. Q Do you know Lieutenant Robert Cesario? A I do. Q How did you know Robert Cesario? A I first met Robert -- Lieutenant Cesario when I was assigned as a lieutenant in Area 4 homicide division, and he came in near the end of my tenure as a sergeant and he worked briefly under my supervision. I don't know how long. I wasn't there that long. I was only there for about a year and a half or so, and for a while he was there as a sergeant. And then I haven't worked with him since, but I just know who he is and cordial to him. Q Have you ever talked with him about Danny Echeverria or Shannon Spalding? A I have not. Q Did you ever talk to him about the lawsuit outside the presence of an attorney? A I have not. Q Do you know Commander Salemi? 25 (Pages 94 - 97) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 44 of 191 PageID #:952 Page 98 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Page 100 A Salemi, yeah, I do. 1 Q How do you know him? 2 A I first met Commander Salemi when I became the 3 commander of the gang investigations or gang intelligence at 4 the time, and he was a lieutenant there. So he worked under 5 my supervision for, oh, about over a year, year and a half 6 maybe, two years. 7 Q And did you ever talk with him about Danny 8 Echeverria or Shannon Spalding? 9 A No. 10 Q And did you ever talk to him about the lawsuit 11 outside the presence of an attorney? 12 A Nothing in-depth other than -- no. I'm going to 13 say it's been mentioned in passing but no specifics of the 14 case, just I see you're on the lawsuit, too, type of thing 15 or whatever. 16 Q Anything -- did he say anything to you at that 17 point in time? 18 A No, just -- I mean, nothing of substance. 19 Q Do you know Thomas Mills, police sergeant? 20 A I know who Tom Mills is. I do know him, yes. 21 Q How do you know him? 22 A I don't recall where I first came across Tom Mills. 23 It was many years ago, but I've never really worked with him 24 CR? MR. KING: Just object to the lack of foundation and calling for speculation in a hypothetical situation but to the extent -BY MR. SMITH: Q Hypothetically speaking. A Can you just rephrase it a little bit? Q Hypothetically speaking, if an officer under the command of a sergeant or a lieutenant or higher up went to that supervisor and said, you know, I've been the -- I've been harassed and retaliated against, supervisors and police officers are calling me a rat and saying that they will not protect me in the streets, would it be the obligation of the supervisor to initiate a CR if they were requested to? MR. KING: Same objections. You can answer if you can. THE WITNESS: I mean, in general if an officer is being in a hostile work environment or in a dangerous work environment or being harassed some way and feels they have a legitimate complaint and they bring it to a supervisor, the supervisor should take some type of action which could include a CR number. BY MR. SMITH: Q Would they be required under the general orders to take a CR if requested? Page 99 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 since or, you know, come across him, but I know him. We always say hi to each other when we see each other, but I don't know him well. Q Did you ever talk with him about Danny Echeverria or Shannon Spalding? A I have not. Q Were you at all aware of any CR in relation to Shannon Spalding and concerning a recording of a Thomas Mills? A The what of a Thomas Mills? Q A recording like a tape recording. A No, I don't know of that. Q In terms of have you ever -- my mind skipped a beat. Did I ask you -- I might have already asked you this, but did you ever talk to Thomas Mills about this lawsuit outside the presence of your attorney? A I have not. Q In terms of would you agree that if an officer went to a supervisor and asked that a CR should be made or a report should be made that fellow officers or -- who are supervisors are calling them rats or words to that effect or inferring that people wouldn't back them up on the streets if they were in a dangerous situation, would you agree that it would be the obligation of the supervisor to initiate a Page 101 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. KING: Same objections. THE WITNESS: When there's an allegation brought to a supervisor of certain types of wrongdoing, they are required by order to get a CR number. I mean, the way you phrased that, I mean, under that exact circumstance it might be the safe bet. I mean, there's a little gray area in there, but it might be the safe bet to get a CR number. MR. SMITH: I think we're done. If I could just go through my notes real quick. Okay. I think I'm all done. MR. KING: I don't have any questions. We'll reserve. MR. SMITH: I guess I'll order a copy. I'll order it and that way you can have a copy this time. MR. KING: If he orders it, we'll take a copy. DEPONENT FURTHER SAITH NOT. 26 (Pages 98 - 101) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376 Case: 1:12-cv-08777 Document #: 166-2 Filed: 02/02/16 Page 45 of 191 PageID #:953 Page 102 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Page 104 1 STATE OF ILLINOIS ) ) ss: COUNTY OF C O O K ) 2 3 4 5 I, Linda M. Benda, C.S.R., Notary Public, do 6 hereby certify that I reported in shorthand the testimony 7 held at the deposition of Nicholas Roti on December 3, 2014, 8 and that this transcript is a true and accurate 9 transcription of my shorthand notes so taken, to the best of 10 my ability, and contains all of the proceedings given at 11 said deposition. 12 13 <%Signature%> Linda M. Benda, C.S.R., Notary Public No. 084-003550 ASSIGNMENT NO: 1975322 CASE NAME: Spalding, Shannon v. City of Chicago DATE OF DEPOSITION: 12/3/2014 WITNESS' NAME: Nicholas Roti In accordance with the Rules of Civil Procedure, I have read the entire transcript of my testimony or it has been read to me. I have listed my changes on the attached Errata Sheet, listing page and line numbers as well as the reason(s) for the change(s). I request that these changes be entered as part of the record of my testimony. I have executed the Errata Sheet, as well as this Certificate, and request and authorize that both be appended to the transcript of my testimony and be incorporated therein. _______________ ________________________ Date Nicholas Roti 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Sworn to and subscribed before me, a Notary Public in and for the State and County, the referenced witness did personally appear and acknowledge that: They have read the transcript; They have listed all of their corrections in the appended Errata Sheet; They signed the foregoing Sworn Statement; and Their execution of this Statement is of their free act and deed. I have affixed my name and official seal this ______ day of_____________________, 20____. ___________________________________ Notary Public 24 25 Page 103 1 DEPOSITION REVIEW CERTIFICATION OF WITNESS DEPOSITION REVIEW CERTIFICATION OF WITNESS 1 ASSIGNMENT NO: 1975322 3 CASE NAME: Spalding, Shannon v. City of Chicago DATE OF DEPOSITION: 12/3/2014 4 WITNESS' NAME: Nicholas Roti 5 In accordance with the Rules of Civil Procedure, I have read the entire transcript of 6 my testimony or it has been read to me. 7 I have made no changes to the testimony as transcribed by the court reporter. 8 _______________ ________________________ 9 Date Nicholas Roti 10 Sworn to and subscribed before me, a Notary Public in and for the State and County, 11 the referenced witness did personally appear and acknowledge that: 12 They have read the transcript; 13 They signed the foregoing Sworn Statement; and 14 Their execution of this Statement is of their free act and deed. 15 I have affixed my name and official seal 16 this ______ day of_____________________, 20____. 17 ___________________________________ 18 Notary Public 19 ___________________________________ Commission Expiration Date 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 ___________________________________ Commission Expiration Date Page 105 ERRATA SHEET VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS MIDWEST ASSIGNMENT NO: 1975322 PAGE/LINE(S) / CHANGE /REASON ___________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________ _______________ ________________________ 20 Date Nicholas Roti 21 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME THIS ________ 22 DAY OF ________________________, 20______ . 23 ___________________________________ Notary Public 24 ___________________________________ 25 Commission Expiration Date 27 (Pages 102 - 105) Veritext Legal Solutions www.veritext.com 888-391-3376