An Interview With Abbie Hoffman

 

Benny Avnz'

bbie Hoffman, the sixties icon who died recently

of a huge overdose of sleeping pills, was, in his

own eyes, the ultimate Jewish rebel. I met him
some three years ago when I was doing a pro?le on him
for a Tel Aviv weekly. One of the ?rst things he said was
that the name he and cofounder Jerry Rubin gave to
their famed movement, ?Yippies? ?long believed to be
an acronym for Youth International Party?actually came
from ?Yiddisher Hippies.?

The setting for our conversation was perfect, the
kind only a media wiz like Hoffman could so effortlessly
stage. I said I wanted to interview him about his Jewish
roots, so he took me to a New York neighborhood
delicatessen on East 34th Street, where the pleasant
waitress asked in a Yiddish accent, ?Should I pack the
rest of the salad for you, Abbie?? He made a point,
almost ceremoniously, of having me pick up the check.
I was The System.

The music that poured quietly out of aging speakers
was a soft version of John Lennon?s ?Jealous Guy,? and
Hoffman closed his eyes and sang along a verse. ?Let?s
pray,? he said. Then he noted that Lennon, an old
friend, was much more radical than his public image
indicated, and that he, Hoffman, had always tried to
help Lennon become more political.

So everything was set for the two main themes of the
interview: New York delicatessen Judaism and sixties
radicalism. But, of course, it was the late eighties.
Lennon?s hit sounded relaxed, Muzak-like. Even I, who
as a long-haired teenager watched the American sixties
revolution from afar, felt nostalgic and sad.

It should be noted, though, that in that era, when
Abbie?s road was much more taken, nostalgia was a
four-letter word. It was something grown-ups with gray
hair did, and we all knew, as Hoffman once said, that
you shouldn?t listen to anyone over thirty.

We talked about his parents. When his father died,
Hoffman was a fugitive. At the funeral there were FBI
agents all over the place, waiting under their yarmulkes
for the famous son to Show up. He never did. He was

 

Benny Avnz? a New York?based correspondent for the Israeli
daily Ha?aretz.

down in Latin America and learned about his father?s
death months later. I asked if his father was disappointed
in him.

?He was ambiguous,? Abbie said. ?He wanted me to
be a successful businessman. He was a national president
of a Jewish organization. And sure, notoriety is a certain
kind of success, but he was ambiguous about that.
Then came Watergate, and all that was happening to
the antiwar leaders was made known to the public. So
my relatives apologized, but not my father.?

And his mother, he said, never opposed him, no
matter how outrageous his ideas were, ?except for when
I would yell at Israel.? The interview took place before
the awakening of some mainstream American Jews to
the Palestinian grievances and before the intifada. I
asked why he would yell at Israel.

?Lots of things about Israel make me mad,? he said.
?Its militarism; its ties with South Africa and other
regimes, like Chile; some questions about them supplying
funds for the contras in Central America; certainly
supporting the government in Guatemala; supplying
the right-wing regimes around the world.

?The only justi?cation seems to be that Israel should
be a whore to the world, because only in this way can
it survive. And I feel the last four decades have proved
me right. Israel lives like a fortress state, isolated from
most countries, considered an outlaw nation by the
vast majority of the nations.

am also critical of Israel because it is a religious
state. I believe in a separation of church and state, and
the movement growing now in Israel that frightens me
is a movement that emphasizes the Jewish state. That is
different than a Jewish home. Of course, I am for the
survival of the State of Israel, and I believe in a Jewish
homeland, but that is different than a state.?

Hoffman never made it to Israel. He asked me if
something could be organized through some student
organization. He said, ?I?d be interested to go to Israel,
because there is more discussion out there, in the
Knesset, in the press, in the universities, in the streets,
in restaurants.

?In the American Jewish community there is no dis-
cussion. There is no diversity of opinion. And that is

15

the heart of the problem, because they can?t get Jews
on the American football teamsmgo and beat up the
goyim?they have to get their stiff erections through
the Israeli army and all its macho show-of?ng in Lebanon
and other places.

?So Israel has a Law of Return for Jews. When I was
a fugitive, from ?73 to ?80, a lawyer by the name of Ben
Weinglass, one of my many lawyers, went to see if Israel
would let Abbie Hoffman in, and the answer was en-oh.
In other words, the Law of Return was for some Jews,
not for others.?

Benny Avni: Whose answer was that?

Abbie Hoffman: I can?t give the names of the people. At
that time we couldn?t approach the formal Minister of
Immigration because they would tell the US. authorities,
and I was planning to go underground. What was stated
to me through my lawyer was that Abbie Hoffman is
worth a Phantom and a half, so fuck him.

Avni: Did it hurt you as a Jew?

Hoffman: Sure it hurt me. You measure democracy by
the freedom 'it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it
gives its assimilated conformists. I am a dissident. I?ve
been in jail forty-one times. I?ve been beaten on several
occasions. I was tortured by the government of the
United States.

I have a tape of Nixon and Haldeman hiring thugs
to beat me up. Why? Because ?the Chicago Seven were
all Jews.? Abbie Hoffman is a Jew. They weren?t all
Jews; I saw them in the shower. When the tape came
out it was on the front page of the New Ybr/e Times, and
not one Jewish organization said anything.

The Anti-Defamation League of B?nai B?rith would
have raised a stink from San Francisco to Tel Aviv, but
because this is not the most respected member of the
Jewish community, they said, ?Let?s not think about it??
the same thing as the assimilated Jews did in Argentina
?fteen years ago and the German Jews did in the thirties.

Avni: Is that the way you were always treated by the
Jewish community?

Hoffman: I am generally written about favorably. They
say, ?He?s Jewish, let?s convert him.? Jews don?t disown
you. Goyim disown. So they wanted to convert me.
Avni: What?s Judaism for you?

Hoffman: I see Judaism as a way of life. Sticking up for

the underdog. Being an outsider. A critic of society.
The kid in the corner that says the emperor has no

16 TIKKUN VOL. 4, No. 4

clothes on. The prophet. You are talking to a Jewish
prophet who used to be a Jewish road warrior when he
was younger.

Avni: So the idea of the Chicago Seven was aJewish idea?

Hoffman: The organizing movement, the leftists in the
civil rights movement, the ?ght for women?s rights,
the social progressive movements?a disproportionate
number of Jews have been involved in them and involved
in the leadership. I mean, if you?re gonna be involved,
you might as well be a leader.

We get choices. You know you are chosen, especially
when you are a ?rst-born son. My father said, ?The
whole world is wrong and you are right.? I didn?t know
he was trying to make a point so I would assimilate. I
thought he was telling me who I was, and I?m supposed
to go out and make the world right.

And it still is true. And so ?rst-born males have a
choice between going for the gelt [money] or for broke.
And it?s people who have changed society I admire who
are Jewish. People who said ?Workers of the World
Unite,? ?Hang Your Bosses,? or ?Every Kid Wants to
Screw His Mother,? or Equals MC Squared??
you know all these Jews who have not chosen to go for
the money. They?ve chosen to go for broke. I will end
up broke.

Avni: Will you also change history?

Hoffman: I?ve already changed history. As a community
organizer. I organized at least a dozen projects in twenty-
?ve years that are still there. You might have this image
that the sixties was all sex and drugs and rock rollfun. But there were people on my
side that got tortured, died, sent to jail, and shot by
the government.

In Nicaragua there are 500,000 troops ?ghting. What?s
keeping them back is the legacy of the sixties, of rebellion
in the army, riots on the campuses, demonstrations
short of civil war back at home. The whole history of
American intervention, before Vietnam and after, has
changed. I was banned in eleven states. Now they respect
me. They call me mister.

Avni: Maybe you are not kicking any more.

Hoffman: During the last ten years I?ve been involved in
environmental battles. Look at all the local battles I won
under the name Barry Freed. You know, all the names
I picked underground are Jewish sorts of names. Mild
Jewish names. Freed, Michaels, Samuel. It?s interc?'m
as another person, I still claimed thatI
was half Jewish.

I was an organizer. Army Corps of Engineers looked
at me as a threat. In these local battles I am a pain in the
ass. When I go to Nicaragua, when I come back to the
airport, all of a sudden my briefcase vanishes and then
shows up again. Mysterious clicks on the phones again,
petitions circulated to take my American passport away.

Avni: How seriously do you take it?

Hoffman: It?s more serious than it was two years ago.
Obviously it?s not the sixties, when the FBI was breaking
into my apartment and everything. Obviously I?m not
that kind of a threat. We don?t have a war.

Avni: So, maybe American society is better?
Hoffman: No way. It?s worse.
Avni: Why aren?t you in jail, then?

Hoffman: I am not a practitioner of outrage for outrage?s
sake, or civil disobedience just to break the law. I am a
strategist. One has to make a judgment. Are you on the
brink of apocalypse as we were in ?68-?69, or are you
at a point that you have to concede that Rome hasn?t
fallen in one day, and you pace yourself? You measure
your energy.

Avni: Has your energy changed?

Hoffman: Of course. If I was twenty-eight I would be
?ghting with the Sandinistas. It?s my Spanish Civil War.
It?s not Vietnam to me, but my heart is not here. My
heart is on the mountains in Nicaragua. If I was younger

I?d be there.
Avni: Are you tired of ?ghting?

Hoffman: I?m tired all the time. I need my chicken
soup once a day. I?ll be ?fty in November.

Avni: So why aren?t you doing a Jerry Rubin?

Hoffman: At the moment, in the United States, people
who want to be rich are a dime a dozen.

Avni: So?

Hoffman: I don?t wanna be a dime a dozen. I wanna be
none-of?the-above. I want to change history, to change
society. The idea of making money to me is of a lesser
calling. In The Big Fix the question was, ?Where is
Abbie now?? They found me in Beverly Hills, making
millions of dollars as an advertising executive, something

that I can easily do. If you can .make unpopular causes
popular, if you can go against the grain, you understand
the communication system and the economic system
on a level that very few people do.

 

Dope will never be so cbeap.
Rock roll will never be so good.
Sex will never be so free.

 

That?s why all the people of my generation who were
tried in Chicago are millionaires. I am broke, and I?m
gonna stay broke until I die. And you buy me lunch.
Jerry Rubin once made a big thing about putting Jewish
women down. Then he married a wife so she will look
good in a fur coat. It?s disappointing. It?s like picking
up the newspaper and reading that my son has joined
the Marine Corps.

Avni: What do you do for money?

Hoffman: I do the same. I give speeches, talk on
campuses. I get'royalties from my books. I gamble on
sports. I handicap. I make $5,000 a year gambling.

Avni: And that?s enough for you?

Hoffman: It?s not enough. I?d like to have medical
insurance. I?d like to have an apartment. I?d like to have
a few more of what are considered the basic trappings
of middle class. It?s a weird state, because I am famous.
You?d expect famous to be rich. There is no money in
being a dissident.

Avni: What?s the problem? Make one Hollywood movie.
That will do it.

Hoffman: Well, talk to your Israeli friends at Cannon.
As far as people on the left in the sixties?except for
Martin Luther King, because he is dead and they can
do anything they want to him?I am the most package-
able, the most sellable, because I am entertaining.

But now, if you look at the movies in which the
theme is youth rebellion, they don?t want to avoid the
draft. It?s the revolution of the ?fties. Back to tbe Future.
They don?t want to touch the sixties at all because the
sixties are still too political and too controversial. But
there will be a movie about me. [That was before
Oliver Stone?s Platoon changed Hollywood?s approach
to the sixties. Stone, according to reports, is working
now on the ?nal touches of a ?lm about the Chicago
Seven, starring Mr. Hoffman as himself]

AN INTERVIEW WITH ABBIE HOFFMAN 17

Avni: Are you angry at people of your generation who
went to Wall Street, then?

Hoffman: I have nothing against people who go to Wall
Street, but I am not going to devote my life to that.
Like all Americans, I have a fantasy about being rich.
Of course, what I?d do with my money is not the same
as all Americans. I?m not Mother Teresa. She has a big
organization supporting her poverty. I have nothing.
No relatives, no friends. I am the Jewish road warrior.
I would steal gasoline. If I have to go against the law, I
will. I?ll do what I have to do, within my limits. If I had
enough money, I would travel in the developing world,
in Africa, Asia.

Avni: Talking about money, how many dollar bills did
you throw on the New York Stock Exchange ?oor?

Hoffman: Three hundred crisp, but it doesn?t matter.
That?s a myth, a symbolic violence. Recently we made a
statement about urine tests. I collected urine from the
audience and sent it to the president.

Avni: In the sixties lots of people did things like that.

Hoffman: It doesn?t make it less effective.

Avni: It does, because we are in the eighties, and not

many people join.

Hoffman: We are not in the eighties; we are in a deli-
catessen in New York City.

Avni: Right. What I mean is, in the sixties you were
young and full of wind, and it worked. The ?masses?
followed you.

Hoffman: Never the masses. Not even the majority.
In 1968, at the height of the sixties, the two most
popular Americans on college campuses were Richard
Nixon and John Wayne. While twenty thousand went
underground to Canada and Stockholm to avoid the
war, there were three and a half million Americans who
put on uniforms and went to Vietnam. You are never
talkng about majority You are talking about enough.

Avni: But your side was ?in? in the movies, in rock
roll.

Hoffman: Not in rock roll. There are more political
groups today than in the sixties. Bands like the Dead
Kennedys, U2.

Avni: You had Country Joe and the Fish, Bob Dylan. . . .

18 TIKKUN VOL. 4, No. 4

Hoffman: Bob Dylan? Never. Have a discussion with
Jackson Browne today. Compare it to anything Dylan
ever said. Or Bono of U2, the Clash, the punk groups.
In the sixties the music was radical because we said?-
because I said?it was radical. Read Woodstock Nation.

Avni: But today the young are not radical any more.
Nobody will write about a Woodstock Nation. Maybe
a Wall Street Nation.

Hoffman: That?s true.

Avni: So don?t you care? Do you just go on with the
same tactics?

Hoffman: I am a Jewish road warrior, just like in the
movie but I am Jewish. If I?m alone, I?m alone. But I?m
never alone. I?m not alone.

Avni: More isolated?

Hoffman: I am more lonely. People are born again.
They got stuck in their life-styles.

Avni: Well, that?s more hip now.

Hoffman: But I don?t care what?s hip. I didn?t care
what was hip in the sixties.

Avni: But you were.

Hoffman: Look. You are talking to an artist who wants
to paint his paintings. Obviously I had to deal with
realities, the world of the art galleries and what is
fashionable and all that; so I will have a chance to
exhibit my paintings on a larger scale, or not do my
paintings. Those are problems all artists face. This
doesn?t mean this phase will be forever.

Avni: Will the sixties make a comeback?

Hoffman: Never. Demographics, economics. Dope will
never be so cheap. Rock roll will never be so good.
Sex will never be that free. You could live on forty dollars
a week then. Dropping out on your career was easier.

Avni: How do you feel about the New Age movement?

Hoffman: It is mysticism as escape from reality. It has
been around for a long time.

Avni: Like the Maharishi for the hippies?

Hoffman: The difference is, for a mystic experience in

California now, you pay a thousand dollars per weekend.
The hippies? fashion came from Salvation Army stores.
It was cheap fashion, used clothes. Now I can take you
to boutiques on the Lower East Side where they are
selling clothes that I-wore in pictures from the sixties
for $600 a jacket. Then the food was cheap, communal
living was cheap, life-style was cheap. It was anti-
mainstream. Of all youth rebellions, the hippie move-
ment was the most political.

Avni: Most hippies weren?t aware of that.

Hoffman: You took life in your own hands; you would
make a political statement. So now the sixties are a
fashion along with the ?fties and forties, which leads
me to think a change is coming. But forget the sixties.
The demographics is different, so you can?t have a youth
culture. History moves in waves and curves. I would
say Our Side is moving up now, in the last two years.

 

 

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Elliot K. Ginsburg

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Two new books from SUNY Press

In two weeks, at the University of Colorado, there
will be a pitched battle between police and students
over CIA recruiting. There is also a strong movement at
Yale?South Africa and local issues. I see it more than
anyone in the country. I speak at ?fty to sixty schools a
year, and I see more activists than anyone in the US.

Avni: Will they change, say, the regime in South Africa?

Hoffman: Botha?s days are numbered. But will they
create a national movement with leaders, with a new
Abbie Hoffman, a new Jesse Jackson, Gloria Steinem?
The answer is no. But that implies that tomorrow is like
today. If the economy bottoms out, we will have a
strong upswing in activism, but it will look more like
the thirties. If there is an invasion of Nicaragua it will
blow up like the sixties, but there will be more violence.
Students with career plans are not gonna go to ?ght. 

 

 

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Translated and with a critical commentary by
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AN INTERVIEW WITH ABBIE HOFFMAN 19