Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-1 Filed 06/22/16 Page 1 of 4 1 ROBBINS GELLER RUDMAN & DOWD LLP PATRICK J. COUGHLIN (111070) 2 patc@rgrdlaw.com X. JAY ALVAREZ (134781) 3 jaya@rgrdlaw.com JASON A. FORGE (181542) 4 jforge@rgrdlaw.com RACHEL L. JENSEN (211456) 5 rjensen@rgrdlaw.com DANIEL J. PFEFFERBAUM (248631) 6 dpfefferbaum@rgrdlaw.com BRIAN E. COCHRAN (286202) 7 bcochran@rgrdlaw.com JEFFREY J. STEIN (265268) 8 jstein@rgrdlaw.com 655 West Broadway, Suite 1900 9 San Diego, CA 92101 Telephone: 619/231-1058 10 ZELDES HAEGGQUIST & ECK, LLP 11 AMBER L. ECK (177882) ambere@zhlaw.com 12 AARON M. OLSEN (259923) aarono@zhlaw.com 13 225 Broadway, Suite 2050 San Diego, CA 92101 14 Telephone: 619/342-8000 15 Class Counsel 16 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 17 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA 18 SONNY LOW, J.R. EVERETT and JOHN BROWN, on Behalf of 19 Themselves and All Others Similarly 20 Situated, Plaintiffs, 21 vs. TRUMP UNIVERSITY, LLC, a New 23 York Limited Liability Company and 24 DONALD J. TRUMP, 22 Defendants. 25 26 [Caption continued on following page.] 27 28 1159054_1 ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) No. 3:10-cv-0940-GPC(WVG) CLASS ACTION DECLARATION OF JASON A. FORGE IN SUPPORT OF PLAINTIFFS’ RESPONSE IN OPPOSITION TO DEFENDANTS’ MOTION TO AMEND THE PROTECTIVE ORDER DATE: TIME: CTRM: JUDGE: July 13, 2016 1:30 p.m. 2D Hon. Gonzalo P. Curiel Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-1 Filed 06/22/16 Page 2 of 4 1 ART COHEN, Individually and on Behalf of All Others Similarly Situated, 2 Plaintiff, 3 4 vs. 5 DONALD J. TRUMP, Defendant. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 1159054_1 ) No. 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG ) ) CLASS ACTION ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-1 Filed 06/22/16 Page 3 of 4 1 I, Jason A. Forge, declare as follows: 2 1. I am a member of the law firm Robbins Geller Rudman & Dowd LLP, 3 which serves as Court-appointed Class Counsel in the above-entitled action. I am 4 duly licensed to practice before all state and federal courts in California. The facts 5 stated in this declaration are true and based upon my own personal knowledge and, if 6 called to testify to them, I would competently do so. 2. 7 I submit this Declaration in Support of Plaintiffs’ Response in Opposition 8 to Defendants’ Motion to Amend the Protective Order. 3. 9 Attached to this Declaration are true and correct copies of the following 10 Exhibits: 11 Exhibit Description Page Nos. 12 1 Transcript of the videotaped deposition of Donald J. Trump, 1-169 Sr., taken on September 12, 2012, in Low v. Trump 13 University, LLC, No. 3:10-cv-0940-GPC (WVG); 14 2 Transcript of the videotaped deposition of Donald J. Trump, 170-651 taken on December 10, 2015 and January 21, 2016, in Cohen v. Trump, No. 3:13-cv-2519-GPC (WVG) (confidential portions redacted; see Cohen Dkt. 172 at 9); 3 Relevant excerpts from the transcript of the videotaped deposition of Amy H., taken on July 1, 2015, in Cohen; 652-654 4 Declaration of Paula Levand; and 655-661 5 Relevant excerpts from the transcript of the deposition of Paula Levand, taken on July 17, 2013, in Low. 662-669 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States of 23 America that the foregoing is true and correct. Executed this 22nd day of June, 2016, 24 at San Diego, California. 25 s/ Jason A. Forge JASON A. FORGE 26 27 28 1159054_1 -1- 3:10-cv-0940-GPC(WVG) Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-1 Filed 06/22/16 Page 4 of 4 1 2 CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE I hereby certify that on June 22, 2016, I authorized the electronic filing of the 3 foregoing with the Clerk of the Court using the CM/ECF system. I certify under 4 penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States of America that the foregoing is 5 true and correct. Executed on June 22, 2016. 6 7 s/ Jason A. Forge JASON A. FORGE 10 ROBBINS GELLER RUDMAN & DOWD LLP 655 West Broadway, Suite 1900 San Diego, CA 92101-8498 Telephone: 619/231-1058 619/231-7423 (fax) 11 E-mail: 8 9 jforge@rgrdlaw.com 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 1159054_1 3:10-cv-0940-GPC(WVG) Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 1 of 669 EXHIBIT 1 Exhibit 1 page 1 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 2 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA TARLA MAKAEFF, et al., on Behalf of Themselves and All Others Similarly Situated, Plaintiffs, Civil Action No. vs. 3:10-CV-00940- TRUMP UNIVERSITY, LLC, et al., CAB(WVG) Defendants. ___________________________________ Videotaped deposition of DONALD J. TRUMP, SR. New York, New York September 12, 2012 Reported by: Gail L. Inghram Verbano: RDR, CRR, CSR-CA (No. 8635) Job No. 10003489 Page 1 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 2 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 3 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA 3 4 TARLA MAKAEFF, et al., on Behalf of 5 Themselves and All Others Similarly 6 Situated, 7 8 9 10 11 Plaintiffs, Civil Action No. vs. 3:10-CV-00940- TRUMP UNIVERSITY, LLC, et al., CAB(WVG) Defendants. ___________________________________ 12 13 14 Videotaped deposition of DONALD J. TRUMP, 15 SR., taken on behalf of Plaintiffs, at The Trump 16 Organization, 725 Fifth Avenue, New York, New York 17 10022, beginning at 10:26 a.m., and ending at 18 3:06 p.m., on Wednesday, September 12, 2012, before 19 Gail Inghram Verbano, Registered Diplomate Reporter, 20 Certified Realtime Reporter, Certified Shorthand 21 Reporter-CA (No. 8635). 22 23 24 Page 2 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 3 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 4 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 September 12, 2012 APPEARANCES For Plaintiffs: ROBBINS GELLER RUDMAN & DOWD, LLP BY: RACHEL L. JENSEN, ESQUIRE 655 West Broadway Suite 1900 San Diego, California 92101 619.231.1068 619.231.7423 Fax rachelj@rgrdlaw.com ZELDES & HAEGGQUIST, LLP BY: AMBER L. ECK, ESQUIRE and HELEN I. ZELDES, ESQUIRE 625 Broadway Suite 906 San Diego, California 92101 619.342.8000 619.342.7878 Fax ambere@zhlaw.com helenz@zhlaw.com For Defendants: YUNKER & SCHNEIDER BY: DAVID SCHNEIDER, ESQUIRE YUNKER & SCHNEIDER 655 West Broadway Suite 1400 San Diego, California 92101 619.233.5500 619.233.5535 Fax dks@yslaw.com ALSO PRESENT: Jonathan Popham, Videographer Page 3 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 4 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 5 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 September 12, 2012 INDEX WITNESS: DONALD J. TRUMP, SR. By Ms. Jensen E X H I B I T S PLAINTIFFS' DESCRIPTION 39 Notice of Taking of 30(b)(6) Deposition PAGE 7 PAGE 11 9 40 10 11 41 2005 through 2009 DayPlanners; TU71944 to 986 Photocopy of ticket and invitation; TU62079 through 2082 91 116 12 42 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 43 44 45 46 47 49 Email communication, 10-30-09, with attachments; TU102422 through 2426 Advertisement; TU69463 Advertisement; TU69434 Advertisement; TU62063 Trump Blog; TU64496 through 4497 A Personal Message From Donald Trump; TU60667 San Antonio Express-News advertisement; TU62091 through 2100 133 136 137 138 138 140 146 20 50 21 22 51 Trump Blog, On Being a Brand; TU-PLTF00199 through 0200 Donald J. Trump, An American Icon; TU59124 157 166 23 24 Page 4 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 5 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 6 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 QUESTIONS INSTRUCTED NOT TO ANSWER: 2 PAGE LINE 3 67 14 4 5 6 7 PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS REFERENCED: 8 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 3 9 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 7 10 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 19 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Page 5 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 6 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 7 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 New York, New York; Wednesday, September 12, 2012 2 10:26 a.m. - 3:06 p.m. 3 - - 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We are 5 on the record. 6 Donald J. Trump in the matter of Tarla Makaeff, 7 et al., versus Trump University, LLC, et al., Case 8 No. 3:10-CV-00940-CAB (WVG) filed in United States 9 District Court of the Southern District of 10 This is the videotaped deposition of California. 11 This deposition is taking place at the 12 Trump Organization, 725 Fifth Avenue, New York, 13 New York. 14 15 16 Today's date is September 12th, 2012, and the time is 10:26 a.m. My name is Jonathan Popham. I'm the 17 videographer, representing Aptus Court Reporting. 18 Video and audio will be taking place until all 19 counsel have agreed to go off the record. 20 21 Would all counsel please identify themselves on the record, beginning with the witness. 22 THE WITNESS: 23 MR. SCHNEIDER: 24 My name is Donald Trump. David Schneider on behalf of Trump University, LLC, and Donald Trump. Page 6 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 7 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 8 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 MS. JENSEN: MS. ECK: MS. ZELDES: Helen Zeldes on behalf of the plaintiff. 7 8 Amber Eck on behalf of plaintiffs. 5 6 Rachel Jensen on behalf of the plaintiffs. 3 4 September 12, 2012 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Gail Verbano. Would you please swear in the witness. 9 - 10 The court reporter is - - DONALD J. TRUMP, SR., having first been 11 duly sworn according to law, was examined and 12 testified as follows: 13 - 14 15 - - EXAMINATION BY MS. JENSEN: 16 Q Good morning, Mr. Trump. 17 A Good morning. 18 Q My name is Rachel Jensen. 19 behalf of the plaintiffs. 20 21 22 23 24 I'm here on If you could please first state and spell your name and your date of birth for the record. A Donald John Trump, T-R-U-M-P. June 14th, 1946. Q And what is your address? Page 7 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 8 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 9 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 A 725 Fifth Avenue, New York. 2 Q Now, before we get started, I'd like to 3 go over a couple of ground rules today. 4 Now, when I ask you a question, I'm going 5 to assume that you understand the question unless you 6 ask me to clarify. 7 Is that fair? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And when I'm asking you a question, I'm 10 entitled to your best guesstimate. 11 12 Is that fair? If you don't know the exact answer. 13 A Yeah. 14 Q Your attorney may be making some 15 objections throughout the day. 16 instructs you not to answer, you are to answer. 17 Unless he explicitly Is that fair? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And then also, just so we have a clear 20 record today, you must audibly give an answer, not 21 nod or shake your head. 22 Is that fair? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And also, you can take a break at any Page 8 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 9 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 10 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 time, but please not while there's a question 2 pending. 3 Is that fair? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Now, the court reporter has administered 6 an oath to you today. 7 here just as though you were in a court of law? Do you understand that you are 8 A Yes. 9 Q Are you represented by counsel here 11 A Yes. 12 Q And who is your counsel? 13 A Right here, David. 14 Q And also, you may ask your lawyer 10 today? Three. 15 questions throughout the day, but, please, not while 16 there is a question pending. 17 Is that fair? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Is there anything about your health that 20 would interfere with your ability to give your best 21 testimony today? 22 A No. 23 Q Are you on any medications that would 24 interfere with your memory? Page 9 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 10 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 11 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 A No. 2 Q Have you ever testified before? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And how many times? 5 A I don't know. 6 Q Your best estimate? 7 A I have no idea. 8 Q Hundreds? 9 A Over 100. 10 Q Okay. 11 A Yes. 12 Q And court hearings, have you ever 13 Many times. At depositions? testified at a court hearing? 14 A Yes. 15 Q How many? 16 A Over 100. 17 Q And how about a regulatory hearing? 18 A Yes. 19 Q How many? 20 A Just -- we have environmental hearings. 21 We have so many different types, I have no idea. 22 Q Hundreds? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q How many lawsuits have you been a party Page 10 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 11 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 12 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 to? 2 A I don't know. 3 Q Would you say hundreds? 4 A I just don't know. 5 business, unfortunately. But I just don't know. 6 Q Under a thousand? 7 A I don't know. 8 9 10 MS. JENSEN: Normal course of I'm going to ask the court reporter to mark the first exhibit for the day, which was also the Exhibit 1 to the Sexton deposition. 11 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 39 was marked 12 for identification.) 13 MS. JENSEN: 14 copy. 15 BY MS. JENSEN: 16 David, here's a courtesy Q Mr. Trump, have you seen this document 18 A Yes. 19 Q And what occasioned your viewing this 17 20 21 22 23 24 before? document previously? MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't want you to talk about anything that we discussed. THE WITNESS: This was your, as I understand it, lawsuit against us. Page 11 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 12 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 13 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 BY MS. JENSEN: 2 Q Could you read the title of the document. 3 A "Tarla Makaeff, et al., on Behalf of 4 Themselves and all Others Similarly Situated, as the 5 Plaintiff, vs. Trump University, LLC, Defendant." 6 Q 7 document. 8 A Where is the title? 9 Q The notice of taking -- how about this. 10 And to the right, there's a title of the If you could please read that. We'll go at it this way. 11 Do you see the title to the right is 12 "Notice of Taking a Videotaped Deposition of Trump 13 University, LLC, Pursuant to Federal Rule of Civil 14 Procedure 30(b)(6)"? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And is your understanding of this 17 document that it's a deposition notice? 18 A I believe that's what it is. 19 Q And do you understand that you are 20 designated as the person most knowledgeable as to 21 Trump University, LLC, according to some of these 22 topics in this document? 23 24 MR. SCHNEIDER: No. 16 only. No; he's here for item We've already told you that. He's not Page 12 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 13 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 14 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 going to be testifying about that because the Court 2 has already ruled on that issue. 3 addressing any of the other issues of the 30(b)(6) 4 representative. 5 already done that. 6 7 Mr. Sexton and Mr. Highbloom have MS. JENSEN: So you've designated him for Topic No. 16? 8 MS. ECK: 9 MS. JENSEN: 10 So he won't be Right. But you will not let him testify as to that topic? 11 MR. SCHNEIDER: Pursuant to the Court 12 order. 13 he's not going to respond to questions on 14 compensation that he received from Trump University. 15 The Court has already told you twice that MS. JENSEN: For the record, I want the 16 record to reflect that the defendants have designated 17 Mr. Donald Trump for Topic No. 16 of this deposition 18 notice; however, they are not allowing him to speak 19 as to the topic that they have designated him on. 20 So in the event that the Court does order 21 the defendants to produce a witness as to this topic, 22 the plaintiffs will then proceed to resume this 23 deposition at a later time. 24 BY MS. JENSEN: Page 13 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 14 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 15 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 Q September 12, 2012 Throughout the deposition I'm going to be 2 referring to "Trump University"; however, at some 3 point I do know that the name was changed to Trump 4 Entrepreneurial Initiative. 5 "Trump University," I'm actually referring to both 6 entities. 7 So when I refer to Is that fair? 8 A Yeah. 9 Q How did you come to be designated as a 10 30(b)(6) witness for this deposition? 11 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't want you to talk about anything that we discussed. 13 THE WITNESS: 14 30(b)(6) is. 15 BY MS. JENSEN: 16 Q I don't know what a So, as your counsel and I have just 17 discussed on the record, you were designated for one 18 of the topics as the person most knowledgeable, 19 otherwise a 30(b)(6) designee, essentially, for a 20 topic. 21 And so my question is how did you come to 22 be designated as a witness for this deposition 23 notice? 24 MR. SCHNEIDER: So only if you have Page 14 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 15 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 16 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 information other than what you discussed with 2 counsel. 3 4 5 6 THE WITNESS: I really don't know. BY MS. JENSEN: Q Did you discuss your deposition today with anyone other than counsel? 7 A No. 8 Q How did you prepare for your deposition? 9 A I didn't prepare. 10 Q Did you talk to anyone regarding your 11 deposition, including counsel? 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: 13 minutes prior to deposition. 14 BY MS. JENSEN: Just counsel for a few 15 Q So this morning? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Approximately -- was it an hour? 18 A No. 19 Q 10 minutes? 20 21 10 minutes. Okay. Did you review any documents specifically in preparation for this deposition? 22 A No. 23 Q Mr. Trump, were you asked to search for 24 any documents for this case? Page 15 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 16 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 17 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't want you to talk 2 about anything that was discussed between you and 3 counsel, whether it was me or any of your other 4 attorneys. 5 THE WITNESS: I believe we might have 6 been, and we gave you whatever we have. 7 BY MS. JENSEN: 8 9 10 11 Q Did you personally search for any documents? A I had my office searched, yes. But we gave you whatever we had. 12 Q Who at your office searched? 13 A It would have been Rhona Graff. 14 Q And do you have an understanding where 15 Rhona searched for documents? 16 A No, I don't. 17 Q Did you indicate to her where she should 18 search for documents? 19 A No, no. 20 Q And what specifically did you say to 21 22 Rhona about searching for documents? A I said nothing to her. She was asked, I 23 think, by the lawyers to see if she has any 24 documents. And whatever we had, if there was Page 16 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 17 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 18 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 anything -- I don't know what she gave, but whatever 2 we have, we would have given. 3 4 Q Okay. So you weren't involved in any of the discussions directly? 5 A No. No. 6 Q Do you have a laptop? 7 A No, I don't. 8 Q Do you have a personal computer? 9 A No -- well, not a personal computer. 10 have many computers in the corporation, but no, I 11 don't have a computer. 12 13 Q We So you don't have any computers outside of the office? 14 A My personal -- no, I don't. 15 Q So you don't have a computer at home? 16 A I do not. 17 Q Do you know who Rhona spoke to about the 18 search for documents? 19 A No. 20 Q Did you review any information to refresh 21 your recollection for this deposition? 22 A No. 23 Q Does Trump University have a document 24 destruction policy? Page 17 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 18 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 19 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 A review. Excuse me. There was one thing I did I asked for a review, just a -- 3 4 September 12, 2012 MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't want you to discuss anything between counsel -- 5 THE WITNESS: No. I had heard that we 6 have a 95 to 97 percent approval rating, and I just 7 asked that that be confirmed. 8 that we had an approval rating from the various 9 people that took the course of 95 to 97 percent. 10 And it was confirmed, And I did ask because I wasn't sure what 11 the number was. 12 wasn't sure. 13 preparation. 14 BY MS. JENSEN: I had heard it was very high, but I Other than that, I didn't do any 15 Q Who did you ask about that? 16 A I asked -- I asked George Sorial about 18 Q And do you know where he looked to get 19 that information? 20 A 17 21 22 23 24 that. No. No. He has the information, but I don't know. Q Sure. Do you know what that approval rating was based on? A No. I just asked what the approval Page 18 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 19 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 20 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 rating was. 2 Q And he collected that information for 4 A He was able to give it to me. 5 Q Sitting here, you don't know what that 3 6 you? approval rating was based on? 7 A No. 8 Q Okay. 9 Does Trump University have a document retention policy? 10 A I don't know. 11 Q Does Trump Organization have a document 12 retention policy? 13 A I really don't know exactly what it would 14 be. 15 wouldn't save documents, depending on the deal or the 16 transaction. 17 18 19 I would say we save documents and sometimes you Q Who would know at Trump Organization which documents would be saved? A Well, we have so many different -- it's a 20 big company. 21 charge of many, many different deals. 22 it depends on what deal. 23 transaction, I would be able to tell you. 24 Q We have many, many different people in So, you know, If you give me a specific And does that apply for all the various Page 19 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 20 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 21 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 businesses within the Trump Organization? 2 A Many different deals and different people 3 in charge of those deals, and I'm sure they all have 4 different policies. 5 Q Okay. As to your computers at work, now, 6 do you know whether anybody goes on to your computer 7 and deletes files? 8 9 MR. SCHNEIDER: Objection; vague. He just said he doesn't have a personal computer. 10 THE WITNESS: 11 computer. 12 BY MS. JENSEN: 13 I don't have a personal Didn't I say that? Q And the computer that you used at the 15 A I told you I don't have a personal 16 computer. 17 Q 14 office? Now, as to your paper files, does anybody 18 go into your paper files and delete or destroy 19 documents? 20 MR. SCHNEIDER: 21 the Trump Organization? 22 MS. JENSEN: 23 24 You're asking him about I'm asking him about his documents. MR. SCHNEIDER: What does that have to do Page 20 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 21 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 22 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 with this case, about how he personally manages his 2 documents for the Trump Organization? 3 MS. JENSEN: To the extent that they 4 pertain to Trump University, they're absolutely 5 relevant. 6 MR. SCHNEIDER: You can ask about Trump 7 University, not Trump Organization. 8 party. 9 It's not a It's not related. MS. JENSEN: To the extent that his 10 documents include documents about Trump University, 11 that is what I'm concerned about. 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Well, ask him 13 that. He said he doesn't have any documents, so ask 14 him if he's got Trump University documents. 15 (Simultaneous cross-talk.) 16 MS. JENSEN: 17 18 questioning, David. Don't interfere with my Don't interfere. MR. SCHNEIDER: 19 to make this efficient. 20 MS. JENSEN: 21 MR. SCHNEIDER: We scheduled this for you Yes. You insisted that this 22 deposition be last so it would be efficient. 23 you're asking about Trump Organization documents. 24 MS. JENSEN: So now And I'm talking about his Page 21 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 22 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 23 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 documents. 2 MR. SCHNEIDER: He's not going to talk 3 about Trump Organization documents. 4 doesn't have any Trump University documents. 5 6 MS. JENSEN: MR. SCHNEIDER: We're going to keep it on the record. 9 10 David, if you want to argue, we're going to take this off the record right now. 7 8 He said he MS. JENSEN: No, we're not. So do you want to keep going? 11 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, ask your next 12 question, but he is not going to talk about Trump 13 Organization. 14 MS. JENSEN: Just for the record, if you 15 want to argue today, that's fine, but we're going to 16 take it off the record when you do, because you're 17 not going to run out my clock today. 18 make that for the record. 19 BY MS. JENSEN: 20 Q I just want to So just understand that. Now, Mr. Trump, as to your files at Trump 21 Organization, or wherever they may be, do you know 22 whether, as to your hard copy files, whether anybody 23 goes through those and routinely throws things out 24 that may not be pertinent anymore? Page 22 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 23 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 24 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 A September 12, 2012 What does this have to do with Trump University? 3 Q Can you answer the question? 4 A No, I just don't understand the question. 5 What does it have to do with Trump University? 6 mean, I know you're here to harass me. 7 this have to do with Trump University? 8 MR. SCHNEIDER: 9 about Trump Organization. 10 11 MS. JENSEN: I But what does He's not here to talk I just told you that. Look, I'm entitled to ask these questions -- 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: You're not entitled to 13 ask questions about Trump University. 14 to do with the case. It has nothing 15 (Simultaneous cross-talk.) 16 MS. JENSEN: 17 MR. SCHNEIDER: Let's go off the record. No, no. I want this 18 record, because I'll certainly bring this to Judge 19 Gallo. 20 MS. JENSEN: Thank you. 21 MR. SCHNEIDER: We're going to keep it on 22 the record. Unless we both agree to stay on the 23 record, I suspect that this will go before Judge 24 Gallo. Page 23 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 24 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 25 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 MS. JENSEN: THE VIDEOGRAPHER: MR. SCHNEIDER: 6 off the record. 7 BY MS. JENSEN: 8 10 I need both sides to agree. 5 9 We're not going to do this all day. 3 4 September 12, 2012 Q I will not agree to go Just to be clear for today, Mr. Trump, one, I'm not here to harass you. I'm here to ask you questions about the case. 11 A It seems that you are, but that's okay. 12 Q Number two, I'm asking you the questions 13 and you are not asking me the questions. 14 the way it's going to work. 15 16 MS. JENSEN: Okay? So, Court Reporter, if you could please read back my last question. 17 (Record read.) 18 MR. SCHNEIDER: He's not going to answer 19 questions about the Trump Organization. 20 party. 21 irrelevant. 22 harassment purposes. 23 about the Trump Organization. 24 So that's It's not a It's not related, and it's completely And you're asking these questions for There's no issue in the case So he can answer questions about Trump Page 24 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 25 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 26 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 University. 2 document retention policy for a different company is 3 irrelevant. 4 5 You can ask about that. MS. JENSEN: I've got your point. MR. SCHNEIDER: You're not listening, 7 because you keep asking the question. 8 BY MS. JENSEN: 10 You've already said it about three times. 6 9 But his Q Mr. Trump, where did you keep your documents that related to Trump University? 11 A Mr. Michael Sexton had those documents. 12 Q Okay. 13 14 So you had no documents that pertained to Trump University? A I would say I had no documents, yes. 15 would see documents, but I wouldn't keep them. 16 were kept by Mr. Sexton. 17 18 Q Okay. I They Were you told of a litigation hold in this case as to Trump University? 19 A I don't know. 20 Q So sitting here, you don't recall whether 21 you were told? 22 A I don't recall. 23 Q Okay. 24 A Who? Who is Jay Chao? Page 25 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 26 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 27 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 Q Jay Chao. 2 A I don't know. 3 Q Do you have an understanding as to where 4 Trump University stored its hard copy documents? 5 A No. 6 Q Do you have an understanding as to where 7 it stored its electronic documents? 8 A No. 9 Q What is located at 399 Pine Road, 10 11 Briarcliff Manor, New York? A That's a golf club. It's a club that 12 is -- I believe that's the address. I'm not sure. 13 But it sounds like it might be a club that I own. 14 Q Trump Golf Course? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Don't be offended by the next question. 17 I ask it at every deposition. 18 Have you ever been convicted of a felony? 19 A No. 20 Q Really nothing personal, and I'm not here 21 22 23 24 to harass you. A That's okay. You asked me to spell my name, so I figured that's a form of harassment. Q Sorry -Page 26 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 27 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 28 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 A It's okay. 3 Q Again, just formalities in a deposition. 4 A All the depositions I've taken, no one 2 5 Nobody has ever done that before. has ever asked me to spell my complete name. 6 Q Okay. 7 A I'm sure. 8 Q Now, Mr. Trump, have you ever filed for 9 Might not have been as thorough. bankruptcy? 10 A Personal bankruptcy, no. 11 Q Yes. 12 A No. 13 Q Have any of your companies ever filed 14 for -- 15 MS. JENSEN: He's not talking about that. 16 What is the relevance of that? 17 BY MS. JENSEN: 18 Q You can answer the question. 19 A What does that have to do with Trump 20 21 22 23 24 University? MR. SCHNEIDER: First of all, any information like that is public. Number two, it's pure harassment. What is the relevance as to whether or not one of the Page 27 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 28 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 29 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 companies that he's associated with ever filed for 2 bankruptcy? 3 What does that have to do with the case? MS. JENSEN: I'm going to ask this 4 question, and there's going to be a follow-up 5 question, and you may or may not see the relevance, 6 David. 7 But to the extent that he is here in his 8 30(b)1 -- his Rule 3-(b)1 -- I'm sorry -- in his 9 personal capacity, then I'm entitled to ask questions 10 that are outside the scope of the 30(b)(6). 11 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: He's here in his personal capacity, because you sued him. 13 MS. JENSEN: 14 MR. SCHNEIDER: 15 MS. JENSEN: 16 topics on this 30(b)(6) deposition. 17 Okay. Is he? Yes. You sued him. So we're not limited to the MR. SCHNEIDER: Now, you're asking him 18 about some different company that's completely 19 unrelated to Trump University or Donald Trump 20 personally. 21 bankruptcy or not, tell me how that has anything to 22 do with your case. 23 24 Whether some different company filed for MS. JENSEN: Okay. I'm going to ask this question later, and then maybe you'll see. Page 28 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 29 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 30 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 3 BY MS. JENSEN: Q Has Trump University ever contemplated bankruptcy? 4 5 September 12, 2012 MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't want you to discuss anything that was discussed with counsel. 6 THE WITNESS: We pay our bills. 7 Bankruptcy, no, we pay our bills. 8 BY MS. JENSEN: 9 10 11 12 13 14 Q of Trump University? A I don't know. accountants. Q You'd have to ask the I have no idea. If Trump University were to file for bankruptcy, whose decision would it be? 15 16 Has Trump Organization ever paid a bill MR. SCHNEIDER: That's a hypothetical question. 17 THE WITNESS: I just don't know. I guess 18 the people running it would make a recommendation to 19 me, and I would have to ultimately make that decision 20 if that company or corporation was going to file for 21 bankruptcy. 22 BY MS. JENSEN: 23 Q And who is running Trump University? 24 A Michael Sexton. Page 29 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 30 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 31 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 Q A Well, he's the one that has been responsible for it, yes. 5 6 Is he still to this day running Trump University? 3 4 September 12, 2012 Q And are you aware that he's no longer been with the company since July of 2010? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And so who would make the recommendation 9 10 A period of time, yes. to you whether Trump University should file for bankruptcy? 11 A Probably the lawyers or accountants. 12 Q And the lawyers -- who would that be? 13 A Mr. Garten. 14 Q And is it true that other companies of 15 yours have filed for bankruptcy in the past? 16 MR. SCHNEIDER: It's not relevant. He's not going to answer 17 that. 18 the discovery of admissible evidence. 19 20 21 22 23 24 MS. JENSEN: information. It's not likely to lead to It's not privileged Are you instructing him not to answer? MR. SCHNEIDER: I am. I think you're just harassing him. MS. JENSEN: For the record, there's absolutely no basis for the instruction. Page 30 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 31 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 32 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 MR. SCHNEIDER: 2 the question either. 3 BY MS. JENSEN: 4 5 Q And there's no basis for Mr. Trump, what is the extent of your formal education after high school? 6 MR. SCHNEIDER: We'll provide a bio if 7 you want his education. 8 this efficiently, so I suggest you get to the issues 9 in the case. 10 You said you're going to run You do not need to spend time asking him 11 where he went to high school and where he went to 12 college. 13 let's not spend the time this morning talking about 14 where he went to school. 15 All of that is public information, and MS. JENSEN: David, I am entitled to ask 16 the questions that I want. 17 hours on the record with this witness, and I will 18 conduct the deposition as I wish. 19 I'm entitled to seven If you want to instruct him not to answer 20 questions about where he went to college, let's call 21 the Court. 22 MR. SCHNEIDER: Let's call the Court and 23 tell Judge Gallo that you're asking him where he went 24 to college, if that's how you're spending Mr. Trump's Page 31 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 32 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 33 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 time. Do you want to do that? 2 3 MS. JENSEN: Let's go off the record and then we'll call the Court. 4 5 September 12, 2012 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: record? 6 MR. SCHNEIDER: 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 8 Agree to go off the Sure. Going off the record. 10:47 a.m. 9 (Recess taken.) 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 11 record at 11:11 a.m. 12 BY MS. JENSEN: 13 We are back on the Q Mr. Trump, did you go to Wharton business 15 A Yes. 16 Q Why did you pick Wharton business school? 17 A Because it had a reputation for being a 14 18 school? great school. 19 Q Any other reasons? 20 A No. 21 Q What was your major? 22 A Finance. 23 Q And was it a bachelor's degree? 24 A Yes. Page 32 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 33 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 34 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 Q Any other degrees? 2 A No. 3 Q Any licenses? 4 A Who? 5 Q Licenses. 6 A No. 7 Q Any other -- 8 A Well, I have a real estate broker's 9 license in New York, yes. 10 Q 11 Thank you. Any other postcollege certifications? 12 A No. 13 Q Any other permits? 14 MR. SCHNEIDER: 15 THE WITNESS: 16 MR. SCHNEIDER: 17 THE WITNESS: 19 means, "permit." 20 BY MS. JENSEN: 21 Q Objection; vague. I Okay. I don't know what that When did you get into the real estate business? 23 24 What? don't know what "permits" means. 18 22 Objection; vague. A During college and after college, which is 1968. Page 33 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 34 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 35 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 Q 2 business? 3 A 4 How did you get into the real estate My father was in the business in Brooklyn and Queens. 5 6 September 12, 2012 Q Did you receive any training in how to buy and sell real estate? 7 A Yes, I took a broker's course many years 9 Q Was that outside of Wharton? 10 A That was outside of Wharton, yes. 11 Q And so you've been in real estate for 8 12 ago. quite a number of years? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And what's your specialty? 15 consider yourself as having a specialty? 16 17 Do you A Buying good locations, building good buildings and generally having very good success. 18 Q Would you say you're most famous for 20 A No. 21 Q What do you think you're most famous for? 22 A I think I'm most famous for just 19 hotels? 23 generally great real estate. I have a lot of great 24 real estate, from New York to California. Page 34 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 35 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 36 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 Q September 12, 2012 Do you also buy -- do you buy and sell residential properties? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Any single-family homes? 5 A I do, actually. 6 Q When was the most recent residential home 7 8 9 10 that you purchased? A Many of them. I bought one in Palm Beach for $41 million as a business transaction, not as a home, and I sold it for about $100 million. 11 I bought homes at much smaller levels 12 too, and sometimes sell them and keep them and fix 13 them and do lots of different things. 14 homes -- I'm very active in the real estate business. 15 I buy them as a business, but I buy many homes and 16 buildings. 17 18 Q I buy many Do you have other types of buildings, commercial-use buildings? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Resorts? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Multiuse? 23 A Yes. 24 Q How many properties do you think you've Page 35 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 36 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 37 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 bought and sold since you got into the business? 2 A I don't know. 3 Q All over the U.S.? 4 A All over the world. 5 Q So would you say that you're a real 6 estate expert? 7 8 Many, many, many. A I can't imagine anybody being much more of an expert. 9 Q Is there anybody else that you -- I would 10 say, what makes an expert in real estate? 11 you say? What would 12 A Success. 13 Q And would it be success over time or one 14 15 successful deal? A Well, success over time is even better. 16 But success is, you know, certainly one of the 17 criteria. 18 Q And you've been hugely successful, yes? 19 A That is correct. 20 Q Now, how much money did you have to start 21 22 out with when you started investing in real estate? MR. SCHNEIDER: Hold on a second. Tell 23 me what this has to do with Trump University, how 24 much money he had to start out with? Page 36 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 37 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 38 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 MS. JENSEN: I'm -- David, I don't have 2 to explain to you every single question that I'm 3 going to ask. 4 So, I mean, you can either -- MR. SCHNEIDER: The questions have to be 5 relevant or likely to lead to the discovery of 6 admissible evidence. 7 MS. JENSEN: Yes, I understand, but I 8 don't have to explain to you every single question 9 why it's relevant. 10 MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'm going to let 11 you ask one or two, but we're not doing an asset 12 search or debtor's exam. 13 MS. JENSEN: Yes, I agree. 14 MR. SCHNEIDER: So we're not going to ask 15 all the things that he has and all the things that he 16 invested in. 17 MS. JENSEN: 18 MR. SCHNEIDER: 19 22 I'm just giving you some guidance as to what -- 20 21 David, no. MS. JENSEN: understand. Hey, look, I understand. I Okay. THE WITNESS: Relatively not much. 23 had great experience working with my father in 24 Brooklyn and Queens. But I My father was a builder in Page 37 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 38 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 39 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 Brooklyn and Queens predominantly, and I had great 2 experience working with him. 3 BY MS. JENSEN: 4 5 6 7 Q And just going back to my question, how much did you have when you started out? A Relatively not much. I don't know exactly what it was, but relatively not much. 8 Q Was it millions of dollars? 9 A I don't know how to answer the question. 10 Just as I said, relatively not much. 11 about, what, 40 years ago. 12 13 Q I understand that's also -- of course, there's been inflation since then. 14 15 Sure. You're talking But you can't recall, sitting here, whether it's millions? 16 A No. 17 Q And did -- your father mentored you in 18 real estate? 19 A Yes, he did. 20 Q Who is your A team in real estate? 21 MR. SCHNEIDER: 22 THE WITNESS: 23 that work for me. 24 BY MS. JENSEN: Objection; vague. Well, I have many people Page 38 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 39 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 40 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 Q Sure. 2 A I have many floors in this building. 3 You're on one of them. 4 Q Sure. 5 A So I have a lot of people. I have all 6 different people for different deals, so it's not a 7 question of an A team. 8 A team for a specific building or project. 9 10 Q It's a question of who is the Sure, okay. Ordinarily when you think of your advisers, who are your advisers? 11 A Me. 12 Q And in a particular deal you said that 13 you have people -- I don't want to put words in your 14 mouth. 15 different people that you might rely on for different 16 deals. But I take from your answer, you have 17 18 19 Is that fair? A I have people that I would rely on and people that work different deals. 20 Q Sure. 21 A They're -- they're -- I give them that 22 23 24 deal to work on. Q And how do you select them to work on a particular deal? How do you know to trust them? Page 39 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 40 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 41 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 A September 12, 2012 Expertise and -- as an example, I gave 2 Michael Sexton to work on Trump University. 3 other people other deals to work on. 4 I do. 5 that have been working for me for a long time, and I 6 let them go out and do a good job, hopefully. That's the way I get people that are recommended or good or 7 Q 8 Trump University? 9 A I don't know if I had a title. Q Okay. 10 What was your title when you started with I'm not sure. 11 12 I give What were your responsibilities while you were with Trump University? 13 A Well, it was very important to me, 14 because if I can impart knowledge to people to make 15 their lives better, that is a very important thing to 16 me. 17 So while I never viewed it necessarily 18 like a building, it's not Trump Tower or a huge 19 money-making thing, like the world of real estate -- 20 assuming you hit properly -- Trump University was 21 very important, because if I can impart knowledge to 22 a person or a group of people so they can have better 23 lives, that's a very important thing to me. 24 doing that. I like Page 40 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 41 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 42 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 That's why I make speeches. I make 2 speeches because I've learned a lot. 3 accumulated a vast amount of knowledge, both positive 4 and negative. 5 knowledge to people. 6 that and do well and create a better life for 7 themselves and their family, that makes me very 8 happy. 9 Q I've And I'm able to impart some of that And if people can learn from What -- I'm sorry, just going back for 10 one second. 11 than Michael Sexton ever report to you? 12 13 14 A Trump University. Did anybody other Well, he was the predominant person. He ran it and he was the one. Q Okay. Now, what is the Trump brand? 15 MR. SCHNEIDER: 16 THE WITNESS: Objection; vague. That's a very big question, 17 because we have many different things. I would say 18 it's predominantly luxury real estate. But we have 19 many, many other items, such as shirts and ties and 20 fragrances and cufflinks, and clubs, very successful 21 clubs all over the country and beyond, and, you know, 22 other things. 23 24 I would say the Trump brand is a luxury brand and a brand that stands for success. Page 41 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 42 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 43 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 BY MS. JENSEN: 2 Q And who manages the Trump brand? 3 A Many people. Different people. I have 4 people that handle the real estate aspects. I have 5 people that handle the shirts and ties, which are 6 tremendously successful. 7 different aspects -- totally different and totally 8 unrelated people. 9 Q Sure. 10 of it? 11 estate aspect? 12 I have people that handle How about the real estate aspect Who manages the Trump brand for the real A As told you before, I think three times, 13 I've had so many -- I have many deals, and individual 14 people manage individual deals. 15 necessarily work with each other. 16 deals, just like Trump University is an individual 17 deal. 18 19 Q They don't They're individual And what does the Trump brand represent to you? 20 MR. SCHNEIDER: 21 THE WITNESS: Objection; vague. I think quality. I think 22 in terms of real estate, it really -- I think a lot 23 of people -- it represents great location, great 24 buildings, beautiful architecture. Page 42 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 43 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 44 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 If you look all throughout New York and 2 other places, you'll see very beautiful buildings in 3 the best locations, and that is the Trump buildings. 4 So it really represents quality location, quality 5 buildings in terms of real estate. 6 BY MS. JENSEN: 7 8 Q Now, do you personally have any controls over the Trump brand? 9 MR. SCHNEIDER: 10 THE WITNESS: Objection; vague. I don't know if we have a 11 book on controls, but, you know, certainly I like to 12 see the right location, which I'd be involved in. 13 like to see the right management of buildings built, 14 that is managed properly. 15 architects. 16 but we have certainly informal control. 17 BY MS. JENSEN: 18 I I like to get the right So I don't think we have formal control, Q Is there any brand manager for the Trump 20 A No. 21 Q Did you ever work with Brand Sense 19 22 23 24 brand? Marketing? A I don't know the name. I might have. We work with many companies. Page 43 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 44 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 45 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 3 Q September 12, 2012 And what do you believe is the value of the Trump brand? A Well, I don't know if I -- I should say. 4 But it's worth a lot of money. 5 lot of money. The name is worth a 6 Q What would you estimate? 7 A I don't know. We've had estimates done. 8 And I think there was an estimate done of over 9 $3 billion or $3 billion for the value of the brand. 10 11 Q Would you say that the Trump brand is the most visible in the United States of any brand? 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: 13 THE WITNESS: Objection. No. I think Coca-Cola is 14 very visible. 15 think IBM is very visible and Trump is very visible. 16 There are many brands that are visible. 17 certainly one of the very good brands. 18 BY MS. JENSEN: 19 20 Q I think Pepsi-Cola is very visible. I But it's As to the real estate, is it the most visible brand? 21 A Possibly. 22 Q Going back to the value of the brand, who 23 24 did the estimate of the brand? A You said it's the -- I don't know the name of the company. I Page 44 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 45 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 46 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 don't know what this has to do with this case, to be 2 honest with you, but I can certainly, if my lawyer 3 wants me to, I could give it to you. 4 know what it has to do with the case. 5 MR. SCHNEIDER: I just don't You've asked the one 6 question I was going to permit. So the judge has 7 made it clear about this issue. I am not giving you 8 more. 9 BY MS. JENSEN: 10 11 12 Q What is a brand to you? What does the word "brand" mean to you? A Brand is the value or the -- are you 13 talking about -- when you say "What is a brand?" are 14 you talking about the value or are you talking about 15 just what is a brand per se? 16 Q What is a brand? 17 A It's a recognition of something. It 18 could be a recognition of luxury. 19 recognition of low-income quality -- for instance, 20 low-income housing, which I've also built, and very 21 successfully and very nice. 22 It could be a It could be a recognition of quality 23 shirts, quality ties, quality soda, quality water, 24 quality anything, or lack of quality. Page 45 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 46 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 47 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 It could be a recognition -- but it's a 2 recognition of something. 3 brand stands for many different things. 4 5 Q In my case, I think the Now, how did you build this brand? How does one build a brand? 6 A Just taken years and years and I've had a 7 lot of success. And over the years you become either 8 successful or not successful. 9 built a good brand, but a lot of people don't know And some people have 10 better. 11 it's just years of high-quality work that has 12 generally been very successful. 13 In my case they know about it. Q But I think Now, in terms of managing a brand and the 14 recognition that you're talking about, how does one 15 manage that? 16 A How have you managed that? I just don't know what this has to do 17 with Trump University. 18 questions, but I don't understand what this has to do 19 with this ridiculous lawsuit. 20 Q Sure. You're asking these Mr. Trump, like we talked about 21 earlier, I'm going to ask the questions. 22 please, have -- 23 24 A If I could, But I told you, I don't have a brand manager. Page 46 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 47 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 48 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 September 12, 2012 Q No, but I'm saying that how does one go about managing a brand -- 3 MR. SCHNEIDER: 4 MS. JENSEN: 5 THE WITNESS: 6 question means. 7 BY MS. JENSEN: 8 9 10 11 Q Okay. -- such as yours? I don't even know what the So, for instance, does -- in your case, does brand -- being a successful brand require people to trust your brand? A I think -- 12 13 What does that mean? MR. SCHNEIDER: Objection; vague, speculation. 14 THE WITNESS: I think it's not a question 15 of trust. 16 years a certain reputation. 17 good reputation; and I think that certainly is a part 18 of the brand, yes. 19 BY MS. JENSEN: 20 Q It's a question, you build up over the And I've developed a And is part of the brand also the image 21 that people -- that people see or think of when they 22 think of Trump, they think of something in 23 particular? 24 A Even though you're trying to hurt the Page 47 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 48 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 49 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 image, yeah, I think it could be. 2 true. 3 Q I think that's Mr. Trump, again, just to go -- for the 4 deposition, I want to state for the record that 5 there's no reason for you to, you know, imply that 6 I'm here for any untoward reason or that I'm trying 7 to do anything to your brand. 8 9 MR. SCHNEIDER: He thinks the lawsuit is trying to hurt the brand. 10 THE WITNESS: I think the lawsuit is 11 trying to hurt the brand, and I honestly look forward 12 to winning this case and suing your law firm for as 13 much as we can sue them for, and we will be doing 14 that. 15 doesn't have a 97 percent approval rating. 16 will be suing your law firm for as much as we can 17 possibly do. 18 BY MS. JENSEN: We have a 97 percent approval rating. Q Okay. 20 A And you individually. 21 Q Now, back to my question: Does the Trump brand invoke a particular image? 23 24 And we That I can tell you. 19 22 Harvard A You've asked me this question about four times. Page 48 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 49 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 50 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 Q Are you going to answer the question? 2 A No, I don't think so. Because I've told 3 you about success. 4 How many times do I have to answer the question? 5 6 Q Now, you have a show called "The Apprentice"; correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Okay. 9 And also called "The Celebrity Apprentice"; correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. 12 I've told you about location. And why did you decide to start that show? 13 A I didn't decide to start it. 14 came and asked me to start it. 15 it. 16 17 Q Somebody And I decided to do Do you think that a lot of people associate you with "The Apprentice" TV show? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And what do you think people -- what do 20 you think that show has invoked for people? 21 they think of when they think of that show? 22 A What do I think the reason they chose me was 23 because of my success. Otherwise NBC would not have 24 wanted Trump, they would have used somebody else. Page 49 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 50 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 51 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 They have many people that have success, and they 2 could have used somebody else. 3 reason they chose me was because of my success. 4 And -- that's why. 5 But I think the Q Do you think people want to learn from 7 A Yes. 8 Q Do you think people trust you? 9 A I think so. 10 Q Do you believe that the Trump University 6 you? 11 courses were more valuable than other competitor 12 courses? 13 MR. SCHNEIDER: 14 THE WITNESS: Objection; foundation. I don't know too much about 15 the other courses. 16 was certainly a valuable education, as proven out by 17 95 to 97 percent approval rating, including the 18 highest marks from your terrible client who gave us, 19 on tape, glowing reports. 20 I do think that Trump University So, yeah, I think it was -- was and maybe 21 will be very good, yes. 22 BY MS. JENSEN: 23 24 Q And do you think that the name recognition drew more people in? Page 50 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 51 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 52 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 MR. SCHNEIDER: 2 THE WITNESS: 3 4 5 Objection; foundation. Probably. BY MS. JENSEN: Q Do you think people are willing to pay more because it was associated with your brand? 6 A Possibly. 7 Q Is the Trump brand -- is the Trump brand 8 related to you personally? 9 MR. SCHNEIDER: 10 11 12 THE WITNESS: What does that mean? What does that mean? BY MS. JENSEN: Q Is the Trump brand -- when people think 13 of Trump -- Trump brand, do they think of you in 14 particular? 15 MR. SCHNEIDER: Hold on a second. 16 asking him what other people think? 17 MS. JENSEN: 18 MR. SCHNEIDER: 23 24 Do you know what other people think? 21 22 Yes, to the extent that he knows, absolutely. 19 20 You're THE WITNESS: No. BY MS. JENSEN: Q So you have no idea what people think of when they think of the Trump brand? They might think Page 51 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 52 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 53 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 of somebody else? 2 A No. I think they think that it's a 3 company that's a successful -- very successful 4 company. 5 6 Q And it's successful because of you; A Well, it's successful because of correct? 7 8 transactions; and lots of transactions over a period 9 of years have added up to a great body of success, 10 yes. 11 Q And you oversaw those transactions; 13 A I did, yes. 14 Q Do you know who Scott Leitzel is? 15 A I know the name. 16 Q How about Michael Hinson? 12 17 correct? I don't know him. who that is? 18 A No. 19 Q How about Stephen Gilpin? 20 21 Do you know Do you know who that is? A I think these are names of people that I 22 taught where -- I think I know their names because I 23 saw résumés, and I would see résumés of instructors, 24 because it was important to me that we got good Page 52 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 53 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 54 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 instructors. 2 So I don't know if that's what you're 3 referring to. But I've met numerous instructors, and 4 I've also -- this is over a period of years. 5 I've also seen the résumés of virtually everybody. 6 So that's where they sound familiar to And 7 me; and in some cases, I know them better because 8 I've met them. 9 Q Sure. 10 A I believe Donald Sexton and Mr. Caplan. 11 Which instructors did you meet? I believe perhaps Childers. 12 I've met a number of them. 13 their names. 14 This is actually years ago. 15 I don't know I mean, you're talking about years ago. But I've met a number of instructors. I 16 wanted to see -- I really was very insistent that we 17 get good instructors for the classes. 18 19 And I think the 97 percent bears that out, that we were successful in that regard. 20 21 But the concept of getting proper instructors was very important to me. 22 Q Now, when did you meet Donald Sexton? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q How many times did you meet him? Years ago. Page 53 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 54 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 55 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 A I don't know. 2 Q Do you remember what you talked about? 3 A Just, I would have talked to everybody 4 about the same thing. 5 also gave them concepts of what I would like to talk 6 about to students. 7 I ask their experience. But I wanted each instructor to really do 8 their own thing. 9 where they could talk about individual deals, 10 I I wanted people with experience different deals. 11 Actually, the classes were very 12 different, because different instructors -- like when 13 you go to a college and you have different 14 instructors teaching, whether it's real estate or 15 something else, I wanted instructors to be able to 16 give individualized service based upon their 17 experiences, not based on one standard rule of thumb 18 because it's different. 19 As an example, different parts of the 20 country are different. 21 different real estate mindset in Iowa than you do in 22 California. 23 different. 24 Q You may have a whole So the classes were very, very And did you attend any of the three-day Page 54 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 55 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 56 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 seminars? 2 A September 12, 2012 I would go on occasion to the -- to a 3 seminar where I'd walk in during the seminar and 4 stand -- I did a couple times in Florida years ago, 5 where I'd stand in the back of the room -- pretty 6 much unnoticed. 7 to see how a class looked like and how the instructor 8 was doing. 9 leave. Everybody is looking forward -- just And I'd stay for 10 or 15 minutes and I just wanted to see what it all looked like. 10 So I would do that because it was 11 important for me to make sure that people are getting 12 the proper knowledge and education. 13 14 Q And you said that you attended a seminar in Florida? 15 A Couple of times, yes. 16 Q Okay. 17 A Years ago. 18 Q Do you recall -- 19 A A long time ago. 20 When was that? Everything we're talking about is a long time ago. 21 Q Sure. 23 A I'd have to find out. 24 find out. 22 Do you recall approximately what year? I might be able to But I just drove there; and on two Page 55 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 56 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 57 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 occasions in Florida, on one occasion in New York. 2 I went and stood and just watched for a 3 little while and then left. 4 with what I saw. 5 terrific, actually. But I was very satisfied I thought the instructors were 6 Q Which instructors were they? 7 A I don't remember. 8 Q So sitting here, you can't remember who 9 I don't remember. the instructor was? 10 A No. 11 Q And did you inform them that you were A No, I didn't. 12 13 14 15 16 17 there? I walked in in the middle and left shortly thereafter. Q Sure. Did you meet any students while you were there? A For the most part I stood in the back of 18 the room where they couldn't see -- a couple would 19 turn around and saw me. 20 they saw me there. 21 the purpose. 22 was like. 23 Q And were these recorded on your calendar? 24 A I don't think they would have been. And I think they liked that But for the most part that wasn't The purpose was really to see what it I Page 56 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 57 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 58 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 believe it was either a Saturday or a Sunday. 2 think it was a Saturday, generally speaking, and I 3 don't do calendars for Saturday. 4 trips. 5 6 Q Just very random Did you inform anybody that you were there that time, or any of those times -- 7 A Yeah, a couple of times. 8 Q -- two in Florida and the one in 9 New York? 10 A 11 A couple of people would have known I was there, but not much. 12 Q And who? 13 A I don't know. 14 Q You can't recall? 15 A No. 16 Q Okay. 17 A No, I don't. 18 That, I wouldn't know. Do you know if it was in 2005? It was years ago. You're talking about years ago. 19 Q Sure. 20 A New York also. 21 New York, maybe two. 22 about years ago. 23 what I saw. 24 I Q Okay. I think I attended one in But it was -- you're talking And I was very, very satisfied with And do you recall what you saw? Page 57 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 58 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 59 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 A Yes. 2 Q What was it? 3 A I saw an instructor talking about real Q Okay. 4 5 estate. 6 talking about? 7 through both times. 8 9 A And what in particular were they Let's take the Florida -- let's go What were they speaking about? General real estate. specifically. I can't remember All I know is I left the rooms, the 10 individual rooms, very satisfied that it was a very 11 good instructor -- because I wanted to see it. 12 the instructor was excellent. 13 That And again, I went to the Wharton School 14 of Finance. 15 doesn't take me a long time to see whether or not an 16 instructor is doing a good job or not. 17 I know a lot about education. And it So I'd be there just for a short period 18 of time, but I wanted to see whether or not, you 19 know, what I thought his presentation -- the stature 20 of the instructor. 21 really impressed with the instructor, as is borne out 22 by your 97 percent approval. 23 24 Q I left all three or four times Do you know whether it was Trump Institute? Page 58 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 59 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 60 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 A I don't know. 2 Q Do you remember what the presentation 3 I really don't know. was -- what was the format of the presentation? 4 A I don't know. 5 Q Is there any other details that you can 6 tell me about the -- 7 8 A The only detail, as I left, I was very impressed. 9 Q Okay. Now, you said that you had met -- 10 previously you had met with Donald Sexton; is that 11 correct? 12 A I believe so. Again, there were -- I 13 remember some names. 14 Mr. Sexton, Mr. Childers, Mr. Caplan. 15 There was a Mr. Gordon, There were four or five names -- I don't 16 know, you know, when you add them all up, because 17 you're talking about years ago. 18 up to my office. 19 professors -- one was a professor at Columbia 20 University who was very impressive. 21 been Mr. Sexton. 22 But some would come And I met with a number of the That may have But I was very impressed with the people 23 that we had and the people that I met. 24 cases I looked at applications. But in all In other words, in Page 59 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 60 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 61 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 some cases I didn't see them, but I'd look at their 2 application when they applied and before we hired 3 them. 4 And so I would be involved from that 5 standpoint. 6 that good people represented what we were doing. 7 8 Q It was very important to me to make sure In terms of the people that you met with in your office, would that be in your calendar? 9 A No, it's so many years ago. 10 calendars from that many years ago. 11 about years ago. 12 13 You're talking Q Okay. So you didn't keep a calendar in A I may have had a calendar, but I don't 2004? 14 15 I don't have keep them for 10 years later. 16 Q Okay. 18 A I don't know. 19 Q Sitting here, you can't remember? 20 A No. 21 Q Okay. 22 A Like -- I can't say all, but I would say 17 Now, which résumés did you look at? But many. But many, many résumés. How many? 23 many of the people that taught, I, at a minimum, 24 looked at résumés, yes. Page 60 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 61 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 62 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 Q September 12, 2012 And when you say the people who taught, who are you specifically referring to? 3 A The people that taught. 4 Q Okay. 5 A I don't understand. Q Okay. 6 And taught in what way? What are you asking me? 7 So some people -- so, for 8 instance, let's see, Mr. Donald Sexton, I believe he 9 wrote a book; is that correct? 10 11 A reputation. 12 13 I believe so, and he had a great Q Okay. Sure. Now, did you review the résumés for the people who wrote the books? 14 MR. SCHNEIDER: He just said he met with 15 Sexton, and you said, Did he write a book, and he 16 said he did. 17 wrote a book. 18 19 So he obviously met with somebody that MS. JENSEN: You can let your client answer. 20 MR. SCHNEIDER: 21 that. 22 BY MS. JENSEN: He just testified to 23 Q You can answer. 24 A I just said that. Page 61 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 62 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 63 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 MS. ZELDES: 2 Mr. Sexton. 3 BY MS. JENSEN: He wasn't sure he met with 4 Q As to the others. 5 A I told you I looked at their résumés, at 6 a minimum. 7 Q For the -- 8 A I met numerous people. 9 Q Okay. 10 A I also saw the résumés of many, many 11 people. Perhaps all of the people. 12 mean, some could have -- maybe I missed a résumé. 13 But it was very important to me that we have good 14 instructors. 15 I don't know. I That was an important thing to me. So, at a minimum, I've seen résumés -- I 16 met with instructors, but I also have seen résumés of 17 many of them. 18 Q Okay. 20 A They'd be sent to me by the school. 21 Q How were they sent to you? 22 A I think through Mr. Sexton, or somebody 19 23 24 And how did you come to see these résumés? would send them up to me. Q Okay. And so you were sent them in hard Page 62 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 63 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 64 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 copy? 2 3 A I don't know. They were sent to me in, you know, a few pages, like sitting right there. 4 5 September 12, 2012 MR. SCHNEIDER: She's just saying paper versus some email or something. 6 THE WITNESS: 7 think they were more hard copy, yes. 8 BY MS. JENSEN: 9 10 Q But sitting here right now, you can't remember any of the résumés that you saw? 11 12 I think they were -- I A I think I told you a number of names. Those are people that either I met or saw resumes. 13 Q Okay. 14 A Again, you're talking about many years Q Okay. 15 So -- ago. 16 Just to be clear, so you're 17 speaking of Mr. Sexton, Mr. Caplan, Mr. Gilcrest, 18 Mr. Gordon, Mr. Childers. 19 20 A And any others? Yes, many others. I just don't remember their names. 21 Q You can't remember any of the other 23 A No, I can't. 24 Q Okay. 22 names? And how do you know that they were Page 63 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 64 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 65 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 3 4 5 September 12, 2012 résumés for instructors? A What does that question mean? I don't understand your question. Q They could have been for other positions at Trump University. 6 A No, they were for instructors. 7 Q And these were -- the ones that you named 8 9 10 11 12 were instructors who wrote books; correct? A I don't know if they all wrote books. Some of them did write books, yes. Q Okay. Have you ever personally mentored anyone in real estate investing? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And who is that? 15 A My children. 16 Q Anyone else? 17 A Probably everybody that works for me. 18 Q And when you say "everyone who works for 19 you," do you mean at all the Trump Organization 20 companies? 21 A Yes. 22 Q How did you mentor these various people? 23 24 What's your approach to mentoring? MR. SCHNEIDER: We could -- you're asking Page 64 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 65 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 66 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 whether he personally mentors people completely 2 unrelated to Trump University? 3 MS. JENSEN: 4 MR. SCHNEIDER: 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 You can answer the question. Wait, wait, wait. Just tell me how this has anything to do with the case. MS. JENSEN: David, I have to tell you every single question. MR. SCHNEIDER: You do. I think you're just trying to burn time. MS. JENSEN: be doing with my time. I have other things I could I am not here to try to -- MR. SCHNEIDER: You said twice "I want my 13 seven hours." 14 Trump University has nothing to do with your case. 15 There's no -- there's no claim in this case that he 16 did or didn't properly mentor people in the Trump 17 Organization. 18 How he mentored other people in the MS. JENSEN: Let me just ask this 19 question and then we'll see. 20 down a whole line of questioning. 21 let's get this question. 22 23 24 MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm not going to go Just let's -- Okay. No. We're going to deal with my issue first. Tell me conceptually how this has Page 65 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 66 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 67 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 anything to do with the case. 2 3 September 12, 2012 MS. JENSEN: mentoring. 4 MR. SCHNEIDER: 5 with the case? 6 BY MS. JENSEN: 7 Q 8 9 What does that have to do You can answer, Mr. Trump. MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I'm not going to let him answer yet until you tell me how -- 10 11 It's his approach to MS. JENSEN: Are you instructing him not to answer? 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: Until you can tell me how 13 it relates in any way to the case, it's just 14 harassing. 15 (Simultaneous cross-talk.) 16 MS. JENSEN: I just did. And no, I don't 17 have to give you my thoughts as to every single 18 question I'm asking. 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. SCHNEIDER: I haven't asked you every question. MS. JENSEN: If you want to instruct him not to answer -MR. SCHNEIDER: I advise you to tell me how it's in any way related to the -Page 66 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 67 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 68 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 MS. JENSEN: Are you instructing him not to answer? 3 4 September 12, 2012 MR. SCHNEIDER: Unless you can tell me how it's at all relevant -- 5 MS. JENSEN: Yes or no? 6 MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes or no? Unless you can tell me 7 how it's relevant to the case or likely to lead to 8 the discovery of admissible evidence or has anything 9 to do -- 10 (Simultaneous cross-talk.) 11 MS. JENSEN: 12 I just already did. instructing him not to answer? 13 MR. SCHNEIDER: 14 MS. JENSEN: 15 16 17 18 Are you Yes. Okay. Thank you. BY MS. JENSEN: Q Did you personally mentor any Trump University students? A Not that I know of. Depending on what 19 your definition of mentor is. 20 with Mr. Sexton and people at the university about -- 21 the school as to what we should be focusing on in 22 real estate. 23 24 I certainly discussed And if they gave a great course, as 97 percent of the people thought they did, then, Page 67 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 68 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 69 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 obviously, I guess there's a form of mentoring there, 2 wouldn't you say? 3 MS. JENSEN: I'm going to move to strike 4 everything after "not that I know of." 5 BY MS. JENSEN: 6 Q Now, as to the TV show "The Apprentice," 7 do you recall Trump University using a line of 8 advertising about "You can be Mr. Trump's next 9 apprentice"? 10 A 11 possible. 12 Q I don't quite remember, but that's Okay. Do you know whether the 13 mentorships for Trump University worked like it did 14 on your show "The Apprentice"? 15 16 17 18 19 A I don't know what you're talking about Q Whose idea was it to create Trump even. University? A I would say it was Mr. Sexton who knew a 20 friend of mine named John Spitalny, and they came to 21 my office. 22 reputation. 23 person, who works right now with Morgan Stanley, 24 highly talented person. And Mr. Sexton had a very good And John Spitalny is a very reputable Page 68 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 69 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 70 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 And John was a friend of mine. He 2 brought Mr. Sexton to the -- to my office where they 3 told me about it. 4 image of Trump and the brand and the success and the 5 real estate, they thought doing a school would be a 6 good thing. 7 8 Q And they thought -- because of the Did they tell you that the idea came from "The Apprentice" show? 9 A 10 possible. 11 where it came from, but they thought it was a good 12 idea. 13 14 Q No, I don't remember that. It was many years ago. It's So I don't know Do you recall approximately when the first discussions began about Trump University? 15 A No. 16 Q So you named -- as to those 17 conversations, I believe you named Mr. Sexton, that 18 being Michael Sexton; correct? 19 A Right. 20 Q John Spitalny. 21 22 Were there any other people who were involved in those early discussions? 23 A I don't think so. 24 Q Okay. Do you know where those Page 69 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 70 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 71 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 discussions took place? 2 A My office. 3 Q Do you recall any specifics from those 4 5 discussions? A No. They just felt that it was a great 6 thing to do. 7 can help people, I like to be able to help people. 8 9 I liked the idea because, again, if I I thought it was an interesting idea. And we pursued it, and we ended up doing the school. 10 Q Was there a business plan? 11 A Not that I know of. It wasn't a big 12 transaction for me. 13 It was just something that if we can educate people 14 into the ways of real estate and finance, that's a 15 good thing -- and other things, that's a good thing. 16 17 Q It wasn't a make-or-break deal. Do you know if there were any documents memorializing those discussions at the time? 18 A I don't believe so; not that I have. 19 Q So Trump University filed its articles of 20 organization with the New York Secretary of State; is 21 that correct? 22 A I don't know. 23 Q Do you know whether Trump University was 24 registered to do business in any states other that Page 70 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 71 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 72 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 New York? 2 A 3 4 September 12, 2012 I don't know. You'd have to ask my lawyers about that. Q Do you know if there were any agreements 5 that demonstrated what your role was going to be in 6 Trump University? 7 A I don't think so, but I just don't know. 8 Q Okay. 9 A Not that I remember. 10 Q Any other kind of documents? 11 A I don't know. 12 Q Do you recall that Trump University and Any correspondence? 13 you, Mr. Trump, entered into a license agreement 14 whereby Trump University was -- had the right to use 15 your name? 16 A It's possible -- I think possibly that 17 did take place. 18 about it, though. 19 Q 20 21 22 You'd have to speak to my lawyers When you say "your lawyers," just to be clear, who are you speaking about? A Well, I think Mr. Garten would be appropriate. 23 Q Are you the owner of Trump University? 24 A I think I own around 90-something percent Page 71 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 72 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 73 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 of it. 2 Q Are you familiar with the -- 3 A The actual owner is a corporation. 4 Q And the actual owners -- you said -- I'm 5 sorry. 6 7 The record says the actual owner is the corporation? 8 MR. SCHNEIDER: 9 THE WITNESS: 10 He said "a corporation." A corporation. BY MS. JENSEN: 11 Q I wanted to make sure the record -- 12 A I said "a corporation." 13 Q That's what I heard too. 14 to make sure the record is clear. 15 16 17 18 19 20 I just wanted And when you say "a corporation," which entity are you referring to? A I don't know the name of it, but it's owned in a corporate -- it's owned by a corporation. Q Okay. Does DJT University Member LLC sound familiar? 21 A I don't know. 22 Q And for the corporate entity that you are 23 referring to, are you 100 percent owner of that 24 corporate entity? Page 72 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 73 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 74 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 A I believe so, yes. 2 Q And was it -- what was the business 3 purpose of that corporation? 4 A It's to open up a place where people 5 could gain knowledge where they could -- where we can 6 hire -- 7 Q Mr. Trump. I'm sorry to interrupt you. 8 I just want to make sure, you said it was owned by a 9 corporation? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And I know you weren't -- necessarily 12 don't know by name that corporation. 13 I hope I just refreshed your recollection 14 by naming the DJT University Member, LLC. 15 also a DJT Managing Member, LLC. 16 There's And just to keep a clean record, as it 17 were, you're 100 percent owner of both of those 18 entities? 19 A I don't know. 20 Mr. Garten. 21 don't know specifically, but you could ask 22 Mr. Garten. 23 24 Q It could be. You'd have to ask I think so, but I just Do you know whether those entities were formed for this specific purpose for Trump Page 73 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 74 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 75 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 University? 2 A I believe so, yes. 3 Q Do you know if they had any other 4 business purpose? 5 A I don't think so. 6 Q Do you know whether they have any other 8 A I don't think so. 9 Q Any employees? 10 A I don't think so. 7 assets? 11 but I don't think so. 12 assets, no. 13 14 Q Okay. Again, I'm not sure, I don't believe they have any Going back to Trump Organization, are you the full owner of Trump Organization? 15 MR. SCHNEIDER: Hold on a second. 16 He's not going to talk about his 17 ownership interest or his assets. 18 debtor's exam. 19 Trump Organization, you're not getting into. 20 BY MS. JENSEN: 21 22 23 24 Q This isn't a So what he owns or doesn't own in the Could you describe the corporate structure for Trump Organization. A It's a series of -- under the Trump Organization, a series of corporations mostly, Page 74 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 75 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 76 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 individual corporations and corporations or a series 2 of partnerships that have a veil of -- that we call, 3 for convenience purposes, the Trump Organization. 4 But it's a series of many corporations 5 and partnerships that comprise the Trump 6 Organization. 7 Q Do you know approximately how many? 8 A Many. 9 I don't know. I could get that information for you if it was really necessary. I 10 don't know what it has to do with this case, but I 11 could certainly get the information for you. 12 13 Q Sure. And is Trump University one of those entities? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Now, do you have an email address? 16 A My secretaries have an email address, 18 Q Does dtrump@trumporg.com sound familiar? 19 A I don't know. 20 Q And if I emailed that email address, who 17 21 22 23 24 yes. might respond, if any? A I guess you'd have to ask for either Lauren or Randi. Q I'm sorry? Page 75 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 76 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 77 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 A Lauren or Randi. 2 Q Lauren's last name? 3 A I don't know. 4 Lauren or Randi, two girls that work in the office. 5 Q Okay. 6 A I don't know. 7 Q Gleason? 8 A Gleason, yes. 9 Q I'm sorry. 10 A E-A-S-O-N, I believe. 11 Q Okay. 12 13 And what's Randi's last name? Gleason, I believe. She's rather new. Glisson, G-L-I-S-S-O-N? I'm sorry. I misheard you. And you don't know what Lauren's last name is? 14 A No, I don't. 15 Q Okay. And you said that your secretaries 16 have an email address. 17 there? Who are you referring to 18 A No, I said -- I'm referring to the two. 19 Q Those two. A Well, you could also ask about Rhona, 20 21 22 23 24 So you're not referring to Rhona? Rhona Graff. Q Rhona Graff. And is she your head secretary? Page 76 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 77 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 78 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 A Yes. 2 Q Does she make your appointments in your 3 planners? 4 A They sort of all do. 5 Q Okay. 6 So not one person manages your email addresses? 7 A No. 8 Q Sitting here right now, can you think of 9 10 any other email address that you had other than the dtrump@trumporg? 11 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: email address. 13 14 He didn't say he had an He said those were someone else's. THE WITNESS: No, I can't. BY MS. JENSEN: 15 Q Do you have a smartphone? 16 A No. 17 Q Did you send emails to prospective Trump 18 University students with a personal invitation to 19 RSVP in 2006? 20 21 22 23 24 A I didn't. on my behalf. Q But it's possible somebody did For instance, Mr. Sexton. Do you know whether Trump Organization provides legal services to Trump University? A I don't know what you mean by that. You Page 77 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 78 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 79 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 mean do lawyers here represent, like Mr. Garten? 2 Yes. 3 and corporations. 4 Q 5 They represent all of the different companies Okay. And how about IT services, computer services? 6 A No, I think for the most part Trump 7 University had its own services, for the most part. 8 I think, to the best of my knowledge. 9 Q Okay. Are there any other services that 10 Trump Organization provides for the various companies 11 within the family companies? 12 A Not that I know of, no. 13 Q Okay. Do you know if there were any 14 common employees between Trump University and Trump 15 Organization? 16 A Not that I know of. 17 Q Any common board members? 18 A I don't think so. 19 Q Any executives? 20 A I don't know. You'd have to show me. 21 I'd have to look at the different charts. 22 many corporations, I'd have to look at the different 23 charts. 24 I have so But it's possible, but not that I know of. Q Okay. Do you know whether Trump Page 78 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 79 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 80 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 Organization's insurance policies cover Trump 2 University? 3 A To an extent I think they did, yes. 4 Q And in this case, this Trump 5 Organization? 6 A I think so. 7 Q "Yes"? 8 A I think so. 9 Q What extent? 10 A I don't know. 11 You would have to ask Mr. Garten. 12 13 At least to an extent. Q Okay. Do you know whether the carrier has been covering Trump University? 14 A What? 15 Q The carrier -- 16 A You said do I know whether the carrier, 17 that's the carrier. What about the carrier? What's the end of the question? 18 Q For the insurance policy. 19 A Yeah, do I know the name of the carrier? 20 Q Do you know whether it's Chartis, the 22 A I don't know. 23 Q Do you know whether Chartis is covering 21 24 carrier? I think it might be. this action? Page 79 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 80 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 81 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 MR. SCHNEIDER: We gave you the letter, 2 which we weren't required to do. We gave you their 3 coverage position. 4 just wasting Mr. Trump's time on this issue. 5 have the letter from Chartis. 6 position. 7 BY MS. JENSEN: You've got the policy. So you're You You know exactly their 8 Q You can answer the question. 9 A Well, I think you just heard the answer. 10 Didn't you just hear the answer? 11 didn't you just hear the answer? 12 Q What's your answer? 13 A I don't know. 14 Q Okay. 15 business? 16 A From my lawyer, I told you that. Is Trump University currently in It can be. I've been so busy that I 17 haven't focused on it and because this lawsuit has 18 had such a negative impact on it. 19 But would we start it again, and do we 20 plan to start it again after this lawsuit is won and 21 after we bring the lawsuit against your firm? 22 would say probably, yeah. 23 24 I We're -- I think we're current on all bills, or most of the bills. And we've had to pay a Page 80 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 81 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 82 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 lot of bills off, we paid a lot of vendors off, at 2 great cost to myself. 3 And this lawsuit has had a very 4 detrimental impact on it. And what we'll do is we'll 5 see how it all ends up. 6 continue forward at some time in the future. But it is prepared to 7 Q Does it still continue in Canada? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Do you know when the name Trump 10 University was chosen? 11 A At the earlier stage. 12 Q Was it chosen by you? 13 A I think it was chosen by Mr. Sexton Q Did you contribute to the decision to 17 A Probably. 18 Q Were there any other names that were 14 mostly. 15 16 19 use -- discussed? 20 A I don't remember. 21 Q Do you know why the name Trump University 22 23 24 was chosen? A Just sounded good, like every other name that's chosen for a company or for a person. Page 81 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 82 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 83 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 Q September 12, 2012 Do all the companies within the Trump Organization, do they all include the name Trump? 3 A No, I don't believe so. 4 Q Okay. Many do. Are there any ones that come to 5 the top of your head that don't contain the name 6 Trump? 7 A I have a lot of them I believe that don't 8 contain -- Wembley. 9 that don't have the name Trump, but I have a lot that 10 11 I have a lot of different names do. Q Okay. Do most companies -- in this case, 12 does Trump University use the name Trump because they 13 felt it was an asset? 14 A Repeat. 15 MS. JENSEN: 16 (Record read.) 17 THE WITNESS: 18 identification purposes. 19 BY MS. JENSEN: 20 21 Q Can you read that back. Perhaps, or for In this case, did you believe that the name Trump would be an asset to Trump University? 22 A Yes, I think so. 23 Q Do you know why Trump University changed 24 its name to the Trump Entrepreneurial Initiative, Page 82 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 83 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 84 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 LLC? 2 A 3 question. 4 the name somewhere along the line. 5 6 No. I think Mr. Sexton could answer that I'm not exactly sure, but they did change I think we were requested to because of something having to do with the word "university." 7 Q You can't remember what -- 8 A No, I don't remember exactly the details 9 10 of it. But Mr. Sexton was requested to at some point along the way and he changed the name. 11 Q Do you remember who requested it? 12 A No, I don't. 13 Q Do you remember seeing any letter from 14 the New York Department of Education about the use of 15 the word "university"? 16 A No. I think there was a negotiation that 17 went on for a period of time; and then Mr. Sexton 18 said rather than arguing about it, we'll change the 19 name. 20 It wasn't a big deal. Q Okay. Do you know if any other -- if any 21 other states asked Trump University to change its 22 name? 23 A That, I don't know. 24 Q Now, at the beginning of Trump Page 83 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 84 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 85 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 University's operations, do you recall what type of 2 courses that it offered? 3 A You'd have to ask Mr. Sexton in terms of 4 the details, but it was very well spelled out, as you 5 know. 6 7 Q So sitting here right now, you can't remember what the initial courses were? 8 9 Okay. A Courses primarily on real estate and real estate finance and even renovation and fix-up and 10 lots of different things having to do with real 11 estate. 12 13 Q Sure. Do you remember in what format they took? 14 A No, I don't. 15 Q Do you remember if they were live events? 16 A Well, originally it started as an online 17 concept. 18 it to go to a class format, and I know a couple years 19 later they changed it over so it became a class 20 format also. 21 And there were so many people that wanted Q Do you recall that Trump Institute first 22 took the live class form -- I'm sorry, excuse me -- 23 the classroom form? 24 A Yes. Page 84 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 85 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 86 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 Q September 12, 2012 Okay. Do you know how much sooner Trump 2 Institute started those classes than Trump 3 University? 4 MR. SCHNEIDER: He's differentiating 5 between another company. 6 THE WITNESS: No, I don't know. 7 No, I don't. It was a period of years. 8 I don't know exactly what the time was. 9 BY MS. JENSEN: 10 11 Q Do you recall that Trump Institute was fairly successful with the classroom format? 12 A Yes, it was successful. 13 Q And was that the reason that -- one of 14 the reasons, at least, that Trump University wanted 15 to move into that format? 16 17 A No. I think it was successful. I think their contract ran out. 18 Q Do you recall making the decision to go 20 A "To go live," what does "live" mean? 21 Q Into the classroom format. 22 A It was a decision that was made primarily 19 23 24 live? by Mr. Sexton. But I recall when he made that decision, Page 85 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 86 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 87 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 yes -- you mean to go away from Trump Institute? 2 3 September 12, 2012 Q To go away from the online to the classroom? 4 A Yeah, there was a period of time -- 5 people really wanted it, they loved it. 6 the online. 7 they loved the classes. 8 those classes. 9 10 Q They liked They really wanted to have classes. I mean, they really loved And do you recall what year it was that you moved into live events? 11 A I think it was a couple years later. 12 Q Okay. 13 And Were the live events more profitable than the online courses? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q Could you list the classroom courses that 16 Trump University offered? 17 A Well, it was different -- I mean, I could 18 get you a listing of them. 19 them. 20 real estate and the world of real estate and 21 business. 22 Q 23 24 I've seen listings of But just different -- different elements of Can you recall any of the names, sitting here today? A No, no, no. Page 86 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 87 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 88 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 Q September 12, 2012 And was Mr. Sexton responsible for overseeing these courses? 3 A Yes, he was. 4 Q Okay. 5 6 Do you recall whether Mr. Sexton was in charge of creating these courses? A No. He was -- he was in charge; but he 7 did it also with some very talented professors and 8 other people and teachers. 9 Q Okay. 10 A Instructors. 11 Q Could you name any of those people? 12 A Well, I already did. I thought I gave 13 you a large list of names a while ago. 14 me to name them again? 15 Q Okay. 16 A Yeah. 17 Q Okay. 18 A I gave you the list before. 19 20 21 22 Do you want So Mr. Donald Sexton; correct? And also, let's see, Mr. Caplan? I'd rather not have to repeat it again. Q Okay. So the people who are responsible for the courses -A No, not those people, but they had input. 23 Everybody had input. Every instructor had input. 24 And every class was different. In other words, you Page 87 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 88 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 89 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 have a class in California, and then you could have 2 another class in California that's totally different. 3 4 The classes were all very different. And I wanted that. 5 Q In what ways were they different? 6 A They would talk about different life 7 stories. The instructors were people that had life 8 stories, and they had stories to tell. 9 tell their stories as opposed to somebody else's. And they'd 10 They weren't classes that were tailored to be exactly 11 the same for every unit. 12 We had places all over the country and 13 every class was totally different. 14 "totally," I mean they talked real estate; but the 15 live experience of people talking about their 16 experiences in the real estate business were 17 different in virtually every instance. 18 19 Q Sure. When I say So the instructors' stories were different? 20 A Absolutely, yes. 21 Q And were there any other differences? 22 A I think -- I think it was different. Q I'm asking -- 23 24 Look -- Page 88 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 89 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 90 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 A September 12, 2012 -- Iowa is different than California. 2 They have different rules, regulations. 3 different than California. New York is 4 Q Sure. 5 A Different cities are different. So we 6 have different cities, different states, different 7 areas. 8 can't make it a one-blanket policy. 9 different. 10 And you can't really tailor it as -- you Everything was But most importantly, the instructors and their stories were different. 11 Q Sure. And did you see -- did you see any 12 of the presentations, the PowerPoint presentations 13 that were to be provided at the courses? 14 15 A I believe they were sent to me at certain points, yes. 16 Q Okay. And do you recall, sitting here 17 today, how those PowerPoints differed from state to 18 state? 19 A 20 No, I don't. MS. JENSEN: 21 and break. 22 can go off the record. 23 24 All right. Take a short break. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 12:06 p.m. Let's go ahead I don't know -- we Off the record at This marks the end of Tape No. 1. Page 89 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 90 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 91 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 (Luncheon recess from 12:06 p.m. 2 to 1:17 p.m.) 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 4 record at 1:17 p.m. 5 No. 2. 6 We are back on the This marks the beginning of Tape MR. SCHNEIDER: Before we get started, I 7 want to strongly encourage you and suggest that you 8 ask questions that pertain to Mr. Trump. 9 We spent the morning talking about 10 reservations of rights letters and corporate 11 structure and document retention that other people 12 can respond to. 13 that only Mr. Trump can respond to. 14 And you should ask your questions And, if necessary, we will make Alan 15 Garten or George Sorial available for those kind of 16 questions. 17 about a reservation of rights letter from an 18 insurance company, you're just wasting time. 19 But spending Mr. Trump's time asking MS. JENSEN: And, of course, for the 20 record, that was not the only question I asked. I 21 asked many questions that pertained to Mr. Trump and, 22 of course, to Trump University; and, therefore, 23 plaintiffs, of course, disagree to -- with your 24 characterization of the morning. Page 90 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 91 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 92 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 3 4 5 September 12, 2012 BY MS. JENSEN: Q Now, Mr. Trump, did you have a day planner from 2004? A Usually on a monthly basis; and when the date goes out, we usually throw them away. 6 Q Okay. 7 A You mean like a little notification of 8 9 So is it your -- meetings and things? Q 10 Yes. MR. SCHNEIDER: We've produced -- I think 11 one of your secretaries had calendars, so we've 12 produced that to them. 13 appointments with Don Sexton, and we produced all of 14 that to them. 15 16 THE WITNESS: So they know your Fine. BY MS. JENSEN: 17 Q Did you keep more than one calendar? 18 A No. 19 MS. JENSEN: Now, I am handing to the 20 court reporter a document that bears the Bates stamp 21 TU71944 to 986, which I will ask to be marked as 22 Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 40. 23 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 40 was marked 24 for identification.) Page 91 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 92 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 93 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 BY MS. JENSEN: 2 3 September 12, 2012 Q Mr. Trump, does this appear to be your monthly planner here? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And did you generally record all weekday 6 meetings in this planner? 7 A Perhaps my secretary or myself, yes. 8 Q Okay. 9 Now, turning to the second page of this document, you'll see that the first page is the 10 2005 Executive's Weekly/Monthly Planner. 11 page is January 17th through 19th. 12 that? The second Do you see 13 A Yes. 14 Q And do you see that on the afternoon of 15 the 17th that you had a meeting with Michael Sexton 16 and -- is it Greg Topalian? 17 out, the writing there. I can't quite make that 18 A Yes, I see that. 19 Q Is that your assistant's writing? 20 A I believe so. 21 Q And do you know what that meeting 22 23 24 pertained to? A I think it might have been about the quality of the education. We talked about concepts Page 92 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 93 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 94 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 and the quality of the classes and the quality of 2 what they would be discussing. 3 4 Q And when you say "classes," what are you specifically referring to? 5 6 Sure. A I'm talking about the quality of the education that they would be teaching in the classes. 7 Q And which classes? 8 A All -- all of the classes, and some of 9 the classes. We -- as I told you, they're not -- I 10 wanted -- I thought specifically people should give 11 their own ideas and they should have their own 12 freedom to teach what they wanted to teach. 13 But we discussed with -- I think it was 14 Greg, but other people also. 15 questions about what they had in mind, what they 16 wanted to teach, how they taught, et cetera. 17 I would ask them Q And specifically was this for the online 19 A I don't know. 20 Q Okay. 18 classes? I don't remember that. Again, I have here on the next 21 page, we have March 23rd at "4:30 Michael Sexton 22 film." 23 A Yeah. 24 Q Do you know what that is referring to? Page 93 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 94 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 95 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 A No, I don't. 2 Q Okay. And actually, turning back to the 3 page before that, do you recall whether any notes 4 were taken in that meeting? 5 6 A I don't remember about any other people. 7 8 No, I didn't take any notes. Q Okay. Were there any documents that you looked at about the courses? 9 A I don't know. 10 Q Okay. 11 A No. 12 Q Okay. I don't remember. Do you know how long you met? Probably 20 minutes, 30 minutes. And the March 23rd, the next 13 page, do you recall how long you met there for the 14 Michael Sexton film? 15 A No, I don't. 16 Q And you don't remember what that was 18 A No. 19 Q Okay. 20 A I assume so. 21 Q How about April 12th? 17 22 about? Was it about Trump University? It says "4:00, Michael Sexton." 23 A Don't know. 24 Q Don't know, you don't recall what you Page 94 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 95 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 96 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 talked about? 2 Okay. How about the next page, April 14th. 3 It says "9:00, Michael Sexton." 4 you spoke to him about on that day? 5 6 7 A Just general. Do you recall what All of these conversations would be about the quality of education. Q And do you recall specifically what you 8 told him about the quality of education on 9 April 14th? 10 11 A I think I've told you three or four times today, so I hope you don't really -- 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: Are you going to be able 13 to remember six years ago any specific content on any 14 specific day? 15 THE WITNESS: It was just general quality 16 of the education. 17 wanted it to be a good experience for the people 18 taking the course. 19 BY MS. JENSEN: 20 21 Q I wanted it to be very good. I So I'm going to -MS. JENSEN: Mr. Schneider, it's improper 22 for you to coach your witness as to what you think 23 the witness's answer should be to any particular 24 question, and I'm going to caution you that you do Page 95 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 96 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 97 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 not continue to do that. 2 MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, Rachel, you don't 3 need to caution me about being a lawyer. 4 BY MS. JENSEN: 5 Q Okay. But thanks. And so specifically as to 6 April 14th, the meeting with Michael Sexton, 7 sitting here today, you don't recall what that was 8 about? 9 A No. 10 Q Okay. How about for June 22nd, on the 11 next day you met with Michael Sexton, do you recall 12 what that was regarding? 13 MR. SCHNEIDER: But this is my point, 14 Rachel, that you can spend an hour and a half and you 15 can go through 90 pages of his calendar and ask him 16 each day; or you can ask him in general first, "Are 17 you going to be able to remember any of these 18 conversations?" so we don't spend an hour and a half 19 where he says "I don't know," "I don't know," "I 20 don't know." 21 a half asking him every entry if he remembers. 22 You're just going to waste an hour and MS. JENSEN: 23 David. 24 fine. This is my deposition, You might take it a different way, and that's But I'm going to ask the questions here. Page 96 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 97 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 98 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 BY MS. JENSEN: 2 Q 3 4 September 12, 2012 As to July 25th at 12:30 -MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm just going to note this -- let you know -- make an objection. 5 I'm just noting here on the margins of 6 this transcript, because if this keeps going, we're 7 not going to be here all day. 8 Gallo and we'll just end it. 9 not going to be able to tell you -- 10 11 MS. JENSEN: We'll contact Judge He just told you he's No, you suggested to the witness that he's not going to be -- 12 (Simultaneous cross-talk.) 13 MR. SCHNEIDER: 14 I said, "Are you going to be able to do that?" 15 16 I didn't suggest it. MS. JENSEN: I'm asking the questions. David, I am asking the questions. 17 MR. SCHNEIDER: You're wasting a lot of 18 time, and you know that he's not going to be able to 19 do this. 20 BY MS. JENSEN: 21 He just told you he can't. Q As to July 25th, the meeting at 12:30, 22 "Michael Sexton," it says, and "David Winterford from 23 Fortune." 24 Do you recall what that meeting was Page 97 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 98 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 99 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 about? 2 3 September 12, 2012 A No. It was, I believe, a writer doing a story for Fortune Magazine. 4 Q About Trump University? 5 A I think so. 6 Q How about August 12th? It's a meeting 7 with Michael Sexton for five minutes. 8 what that was about? Do you recall 9 A Are you seriously asking me -- 10 Q Yes, I am. 11 A This is serious what you're asking me; 13 Q Yes. 14 A Well, it's the same answer I've given you 12 15 right? for the last 20 minutes. 16 17 Are you going to answer? Q Okay. Hasn't been quite 20 minutes, but that's okay. 18 A Same harassing question. 19 Q Okay. 20 Sexton. August 31st, 4:00 p.m., Michael Okay. 21 So sitting here looking at this calendar 22 for 2005, do you recall any other meetings that you 23 had about Trump University? 24 A No. Page 98 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 99 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 100 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 Q September 12, 2012 Okay. And just thumbing through it, 2 other than the initial meeting with David Winterford 3 and the tape for Barnes & Noble and -- were there any 4 other meetings that you see in here with other people 5 about Trump University? 6 A Not that I've noticed. 7 Q Okay. 8 A Yeah. 9 Q Do you see that on January 4th, there 10 Now, 2006, do you see TU71959? is a tape with Larry King about Trump University? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Now, other than the meetings here, do you 13 remember any other meetings in 2005? 14 A No. 15 Q Do you recall any other meetings other 16 than with Michael Sexton? 17 A There may have been some, but I don't 18 seem to have it down here. 19 some. 20 21 Q But if it isn't here, it likely didn't happen; correct? 22 A I don't know. 23 Q Okay. 24 But there may have been I don't know. Now, as to the 16th of March, it says "Trump University promo." Do you remember that Page 99 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 100 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 101 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 meeting? 2 A No. 3 Q Did you at some point sit for a video? 4 A It's possible. 5 Q But sitting here now, you don't recall? 6 A No. 7 Q Now, for the 2007, do you see that 8 document? 9 A What page is it? 10 Q I just told you it's 71971. 11 A Yes. 12 Q And do you recall any other meetings that It's TU71971. Do you see that? 13 occurred in this -- during this year than are 14 recorded on your calendar? 15 A No. 16 Q Now, on 71972, it's the next page, you'll 17 see there "2:00, Michael Sexton." 18 A Yes. 19 Q Is that your handwriting? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Do you recall what you met about then, 22 Michael Sexton? 23 24 A I think I've already told you about five times. Page 100 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 101 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 102 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 Q September 12, 2012 So you don't recall anything that you spoke to him about? 3 A Generally, for the good of the school. 4 Q Okay. 5 And do you know whether he took notes during any of your meetings? 6 A I don't know. 7 Q Okay. As to 2008, it starts on 71976. 8 Do you recall any meetings that are not recorded 9 here? 10 A No. 11 Q Do you recall -- 71978 refers to a "Trump 12 University photo shoot" on the 21st of May. 13 recall that? 14 A No. 15 Q Okay. 16 Do you For 2009, do you recall any other meetings that occurred that were not recorded here? 17 A No. 18 Q And again, for the meetings with -- or 19 the meeting with Michael Sexton, do you recall 20 whether he took notes? 21 A I don't know. 22 Q You don't recall how long the meeting 23 24 was? Okay. And do you recall what the "Think Like a Page 101 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 102 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 103 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 Champion" video was? 2 A I remember vaguely, but I don't remember. 3 Q What do you recall about it? 4 A Just that I did a video. 5 Q What was the video about? 6 A "Think Like a Champion." 7 Q What was it for? 8 A I think it was for Michael Sexton for the 9 10 11 school, the students. Q Do you recall whether it was for an online program? 12 A No, I don't. 13 Q 2010, do you recall any other meetings 14 That I don't remember. than were recorded here in this planner? 15 A No. 16 Q And do you recall any of the meetings 17 that are recorded here? 18 A No. 19 Q Do you know whether Michael Sexton took 20 any notes? 21 A I don't know. 22 Q Do you recall how long the meetings were? 23 A No. 24 Q Did you prepare any of the Trump Page 102 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 103 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 104 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 University materials? 2 A Not per se, no. I would look at it as it 3 was prepared on occasion, and they would send it to 4 me because they wanted to get an approval. 5 of it -- I'm not sure that I've looked at all of it; 6 probably not, but I've looked at some of it. 7 8 Q But a lot Do you recall anything specifically you looked at? 9 A Just general material. 10 Q What types of materials? 11 A Instructional material and perhaps 12 promotional material. 13 14 Q As to the promotional material, what did you look at? 15 A I don't remember. 16 Q As to the instructional material, what 17 did you look at? 18 A I think just the general basics of the 19 courses. 20 me, I could tell you whether or not I saw it, I 21 think. 22 23 24 But you'd have -- if you presented it to Q about? And what specifically are you talking Are you talking about for the online courses? A Maybe both. Page 103 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 104 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 105 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q September 12, 2012 Okay. Sitting here, you don't recall any specific materials that you looked at? A No. I looked at material, but I don't recall specific. Q Sure. Now, do you know what the nature of the materials were? A Were they books? They could have been guides. They could 8 have been -- in some cases I think I looked at books 9 done by certain instructors; and I think there was 10 11 12 also promotional material. Q materials? 13 14 So you looked at books and promotional MR. SCHNEIDER: And he said guides. BY MS. JENSEN: 15 Q What guides? 16 A I said guides. 17 Q What kind of guides? 18 A Just the guides as to different 19 instructors doing different classes. 20 Q So the list of products, perhaps? 21 A Perhaps. 22 Q Did you ever review a document called a 23 24 "playbook"? A I don't know. Page 104 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 105 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 106 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 Q September 12, 2012 Did you keep copies of any of the documents that you looked at? 3 A I don't think so, no. 4 Q I believe earlier you stated that Trump 5 University was Michael Sexton's deal; is that 6 correct? 7 A No, I don't think that's -- 8 Q Michael Sexton was in charge of Trump 9 University. 10 A That's a lot different. 11 Q Okay. 12 Trump University? 13 A That's right. 14 Q Yes. 15 16 Michael Sexton was in charge of Did Michael Sexton report directly to you? 17 A Yes. 18 Q How did he report to you? 19 A Every once in a while call. Every once 20 in a while come up with meetings. 21 professors or educators to introduce me to them. 22 listen to what they had to say. 23 24 He'd come up with In that forum. Not a huge amount of reporting. capable guy. I'd He was a But that's what would happen. Page 105 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 106 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 107 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 3 Q September 12, 2012 And Mr. Sexton was in charge of creating the course materials; correct? A Well, sort of indirectly. I think the 4 different professors created their own material. 5 he oversaw that, yes. 6 Q But And was he -- as you said, maybe 7 different professors came up with different 8 materials. 9 approving that material; correct? But ultimately he was in charge of 10 A I would say so, yes. 11 Q And did Mr. Sexton interview instructors? 12 A Yes, he did. 13 Q Did anybody else? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q Okay. 16 A I believe he did, yes. 17 Q And he had the ultimate approval for the 18 You'd have to ask him. Did he interview the mentors? hiring of the instructors; correct? 19 A Yes, he did. 20 Q And he had the ultimate approval for 21 hiring the mentors; correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q What is DynaTech? 24 A I don't know. Page 106 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 107 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 108 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 Q What is Prosper? 2 A Is this the name of what? 3 Q I'm asking you if -- 4 A I don't know. 5 6 You're asking me -- I don't know what you're asking me, actually. Q Okay. I wanted to see if you are 7 familiar with that entity, but if you're not, then we 8 don't need to continue on that line of questioning. 9 A Okay. 10 Q What did the students get for the $1,500 11 apprenticeship program? 12 A You'd have to ask Mr. Sexton. 13 Q So sitting here, you don't know? 14 A No. 15 Q Okay. 16 What did the students get for the Gold Elite program? 17 A You'd have to ask Mr. Sexton. 18 Q So sitting here, you don't know? 19 A He ran the school. 20 Q Okay. 21 Did you personally recruit any instructor? 22 MR. SCHNEIDER: 23 about this. 24 BY MS. JENSEN: We've already talked Page 107 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 108 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 109 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 Q Okay. 2 A Where? 3 MR. SCHNEIDER: 4 about? 5 BY MS. JENSEN: 6 Q 7 8 THE WITNESS: Are Do you know what that means? MR. SCHNEIDER: 12 know what that means. 13 BY MS. JENSEN: 14 Q 15 question. I don't even know if you What does that question mean? Do you have a foreclosure system? MR. SCHNEIDER: 17 18 What does that mean? you asking if Trump University -- 11 16 What are you talking Do you have a foreclosure system? MR. SCHNEIDER: 9 10 What is your foreclosure system? You're just repeating the What does that mean? MS. JENSEN: David, I'm asking the question. 19 MR. SCHNEIDER: But the witness doesn't 20 understand and I don't understand. 21 you don't understand a question, then ask -- wait a 22 minute. 23 24 And you said, if Wait a minute. At the beginning of the deposition, you said, "If you answer a question we're going to Page 108 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 109 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 110 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 presume that you understood the answer. 2 understand it, then let me know." 3 If you don't He just said, "I don't understand it." 4 And three times you've repeated a question, but you 5 haven't explained what you're asking. 6 BY MS. JENSEN: 7 Q Do you know what a foreclosure system is? 8 A I don't understand. 9 10 about within the Trump Organization or within Trump University? 11 12 Are you talking Q Within Trump Organization or Trump University. 13 A A foreclosure system? 14 Q Yes. 15 A You'd have to ask me the question 16 differently. 17 what you're asking. 18 19 Q I don't think you understand, frankly, Okay. So sitting here, though, you don't know what a foreclosure system means? 20 MR. SCHNEIDER: He's asking for 21 clarification what you're asking. 22 art? 23 Are you asking -- 24 Is it a term of Is it something they were teaching in a course? THE WITNESS: Are you asking me what is a Page 109 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 110 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 111 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 foreclosure, or are you asking me what is a 2 foreclosure system? 3 BY MS. JENSEN: 4 Q System. 5 A Are you asking it relative to what they 6 teach in the school? 7 Q Yes. 8 A It's a definition and a system of 9 foreclosures. But you'd have to ask Michael Sexton 10 as to how it was taught. 11 ask all of the different instructors as to also what 12 their take on it is. 13 14 15 16 Q Okay. And, frankly, you'd have to Did Trump University have any criteria for its instructors? A Yeah, I think we've asked -- I mean, I think I've answered this a number of times. 17 Q Okay. 18 A We wanted to make sure they had a good And what are the criteria? 19 record, track record of having done a good job over a 20 period of time -- 21 Q Okay. 22 A -- as instructors. 23 Q Okay. As instructors? 24 A Yeah. And in some cases, in real-life Page 110 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 111 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 112 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 situations. 2 3 September 12, 2012 Q So they primarily had to have prior teaching experience? 4 A If they had a good reputation as a 5 developer, as an instructor, as a person that was 6 familiar with real estate. 7 had good people teaching the course. 8 9 We wanted to make sure we And, obviously, we did, because we had a 97 percent approval rating. 10 MS. JENSEN: I'm going to move to strike 11 the end of the answer after "had good people teaching 12 the course." 13 BY MS. JENSEN: 14 15 Q Were there any educational requirements for the instructors? 16 A You'd have to ask Mr. Sexton. 17 Q Okay. A Of course, they had to have educational 18 19 But sitting here now, you don't know? 20 requirements, but you'd have to ask him specifically 21 what they were. 22 23 24 Q Okay. So do you know whether there was any college requirement? A You'd have to ask Mr. Sexton. We had Page 111 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 112 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 113 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 requirements, but you'd have to ask. 2 3 September 12, 2012 Q Sitting here right now, you don't know what any of the requirements were? 4 MR. SCHNEIDER: Rachel, here's the 5 problem: He answers your question and then you ask 6 the same question two or three times. 7 the same answer and you rephrase it, but you ask it 8 again. 9 He tells you I guarantee, if the court reporter reads 10 it back, you asked it at least four times. 11 have educational requirements?" 12 13 And he said, "I'm sure they have some; go ask Mr. Sexton." 14 15 "Do they "So as you sit here now, do they have requirements?" 16 He said, "You'll have to ask Mr. Sexton." 17 So as you sit here now, do you know if 18 they have any educational" -- it's the three-time 19 question -- 20 MS. JENSEN: 21 MR. SCHNEIDER: 22 You're not entitled to harass the witness, and that's what you're doing. 23 24 I'm entitled -- MS. JENSEN: I'm not harassing the witness. Page 112 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 113 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 114 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 MR. SCHNEIDER: 2 MS. JENSEN: You absolutely are. I'm not. I'm trying to get 3 an answer as to Mr. Trump's knowledge. 4 MR. SCHNEIDER: 5 He testified he doesn't know and ask Mr. Sexton. 6 MS. JENSEN: If the answer is no -- if 7 you're representing that his answer was no, that is 8 fine. We'll move on. 9 10 THE WITNESS: What are you saying "no" for? 11 12 What is the answer "no" -- MR. SCHNEIDER: It's okay. move on and ask you substantive questions. 13 THE WITNESS: She also asked these 14 questions before, by the way. 15 BY MS. JENSEN: 16 17 I want her to Q Did Trump University require the instructors to have any specific licenses? 18 A You'd have to ask Mr. Sexton. 19 Q Did Trump University call any of their 20 21 22 23 24 references? A Mr. Sexton. Q Yes, they did, but you'd have to ask He was very high on these people. Okay. Did Trump University take into consideration any previous employment with a similar Page 113 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 114 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 115 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 type of company? 2 A You'd have to ask Mr. Sexton. 3 Q Were the instructors or mentors ever 4 required to take any tests to demonstrate their 5 proficiency in teaching the courses? 6 A Again, you'd have to ask Mr. Sexton. 7 Q Earlier I believe that you testified that 8 you could not recall the specifics of the courses 9 that you attended; is that correct? 10 11 A Of the courses? No. primarily. 12 When you say "specifics," no, not 13 specific. 14 time, in the back of the room. 15 a feel for it. 16 It was real estate Q I was there for a very short period of I just wanted to get And earlier I believe that you testified 17 that the courses were different from location to 18 location; is that correct? 19 A The instructors were different, and the 20 courses were different based on location -- yeah, 21 because places are different. 22 23 24 Q And those places are different because they have different requirements? A Different instructors. Page 114 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 115 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 116 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 Q 2 September 12, 2012 Different instructors. Okay. And do you know, sitting here, that the 3 materials, the PowerPoint presentations actually were 4 different? 5 A You'd have to speak to Mr. Sexton. But 6 the PowerPoint is one thing; but the instructors are 7 an entirely different thing and they would teach the 8 courses different ways. 9 10 Q Okay. But sitting here, you don't know how they taught them in different ways? 11 A Different people and they had different 12 experiences. 13 was life -- real-life situations. 14 very important for people to hear. 15 And a big part of what I wanted taught I thought that was PowerPoint was almost the least of it. 16 really thought that the real-life situations were 17 very important for people to hear. 18 19 Q Do you have 10 steps of closing any real estate deal? 20 21 A Yes. We wrote some out a long time ago. I did something on that, yeah. 22 Q What were those 10 steps -- 23 A I don't know now. 24 I It's been a long time ago. Page 115 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 116 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 117 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 Q September 12, 2012 Do you know if you wrote them down somewhere? 3 A I think I presented them to Mr. Sexton. 4 Q Do you recall when? 5 A Just conceptually I presented them. 6 Q Do you know when you presented them to 8 A No. 9 Q Okay. 10 A Years ago. 11 Q Okay. 12 A At the beginning. 13 Q 2005? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q Okay. 7 16 him? Early on. Do you recall what year? At the beginning. And do you know whether he took any notes at that meeting? 17 A Perhaps he did. 18 Q But you don't know whether he did? 19 A You'd have to ask him. 20 MS. JENSEN: I'm going to hand to the 21 court reporter a document bearing the Bates stamp 22 62079 through TU62082, which I will ask to be marked 23 as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 41. 24 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 41 was marked Page 116 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 117 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 118 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 for identification.) BY MS. JENSEN: 3 4 September 12, 2012 Q Mr. Trump, have you seen this document A It's not a document, it's a ticket. before? 5 6 have different things. 7 you have a document after the ticket; right? 8 Q 9 documents before? 10 A Okay. You You have a ticket, and then Have you seen any of these This was written up by the people at the 11 school, and I'm sure that I must have seen it at some 12 point. 13 I don't remember it. Q Okay. It's many years ago. At the bottom of 62081, do you see 14 the bottom above the "P.S.," it says "Donald Trump" 15 and above that it appears to be a signature. 16 A Yes. 17 Q Is that your signature? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And did you approve this advertisement? 20 A I guess conceptually. This was done by 21 the staff. 22 So I would imagine in some form I approved it. 23 24 Q This was written and done by the staff. How were you -- how did you come about -- strike that. Page 117 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 118 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 119 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 September 12, 2012 Who presented you with documents such as this? 3 A Mostly Mr. Sexton, I would imagine. 4 Q And do you believe it would have been 5 during one of the meetings that you had in your day 6 planner? 7 A Possibly. 8 Q And do you see in this letter, when it 9 10 Possibly. says -- where it says "When I send out invitations, people attend"? 11 A Where is that? 12 Q I'm -- it's actually -- I'll read here: 13 "Dear Friends, I'm personally inviting you and a 14 guest to a powerful wealth-building event that can 15 literally change your life and get you out of the rat 16 race forever." 17 Do you see that? 18 A Yes. 19 Q "When I speak, people attend. And when I 20 send out invitations, people attend because they know 21 that my invitation means one thing: 22 be made." 23 24 There's money to Do you see that? A Yes. Page 118 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 119 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 120 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 Q September 12, 2012 And what was meant by people attend 2 because your "invitation means one thing: 3 money to be made"? 4 A There's Well, I think people respect what I say, 5 or if I'm giving instructions to people, what those 6 people would say. 7 Q 8 And specifically, does that mean that there's money to be made by them? 9 A Yeah, I think if they follow what we say, 10 there's certainly -- it's no different than going to 11 Harvard. 12 blah, blah, and I think this is -- except I think we 13 have a higher approval rating than Harvard if you 14 want to know the truth, based on the 97 percent 15 number. They say go to Harvard, great school, blah, So I think that's a fine statement. 16 Q And at Harvard, do students get a degree? 17 A Some do and some don't. 18 Q And at Trump University, do students get 19 a degree? 20 A 21 22 23 24 You'd have to speak specifically to Mr. Sexton about that. Q Do you know, sitting here, whether or not students got a degree? A They take the courses. Page 119 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 120 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 121 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 Q And did they get a degree? 2 A I don't know. 3 Mr. Sexton. 4 about. 5 6 Q You'd have to speak to Depends on which courses we're talking Could you tell me all of the types of documents that you reviewed for Trump University? 7 A No. 8 Q Did you review the advertisements? 9 A If you present them to me, I could tell 10 you whether or not I've seen it or remember seeing 11 it. 12 present me with documents and I'd tell you whether or 13 not I saw it or don't remember it. 14 But there are many documents. Q Okay. So you'd have to So sitting here right now, you 15 don't recall whether you reviewed advertisements, 16 generally? 17 A Sometimes I would, yeah. 18 Q How about testimonials? 19 A Sometimes I would. 20 Q How about the operating documents of 21 Trump University? 22 MR. SCHNEIDER: 23 THE WITNESS: 24 me. Again, it depends. Objection; vague. They may have been sent to If you showed me the Page 120 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 121 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 122 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 document, I can tell you whether or not I remember 2 it. 3 This was being run by Mr. Sexton. 4 wasn't being run by me. 5 Mr. Sexton. 6 occasion. 7 Mr. Sexton. 8 BY MS. JENSEN: 9 10 Q It It was being run by He would review things with me on But this school was being run by Do you recall seeing an operating agreement? 11 A I don't even know what you mean by an 12 operating agreement. What do you mean by an 13 operating agreement? Do you want to show it to me 14 and I can tell you if I recall? 15 Q I might do that later, then. 16 A I hope you do. 17 Q How about a budget? 18 A I think he'd send me budgets. 19 Q Any other financial documents? 20 A Typical financial documents. That would 21 be typical to any other business I would look at 22 briefly. 23 Q When you say "typical," what do you mean? 24 A Financial documents. Page 121 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 122 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 123 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 Q Such as? 2 A How is it doing? 3 Q So P&L statements? 4 A I think so. 5 But mostly that would be sent to my accounting departments. 6 Q And who at your accounting department? 7 A Maybe Allen Weisselberg. 8 Q Any other financial documents that you 9 can remember, sitting here? 10 A Not that I know of. 11 Q How about any contracts? 12 A I don't know. 13 14 15 Perhaps. You show them to me, I'll let you know. Q Sitting here right now, can you recall looking at any contracts? 16 A No. 17 Q Any vendor agreements? 18 A I told you this has been run by 19 Mr. Sexton. 20 more appropriate for him than to me. 21 22 Q So these questions, I think, are much Sitting here right now, you can't recall any third-party vendor agreements? 23 A No. 24 Q How about training materials? Page 122 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 123 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 124 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 A Training for whom? 2 Q Training for -- any training materials? 3 A For whom? 4 Q For employees. 5 A I might have seen them, but I don't 6 remember. 7 know. 8 9 Q Okay. How about for any of the contractors? 10 11 But if you show them to me, I'll let you A If you show them to me, I'll let you Q Okay. know. 12 I'm now going to hand to you a 13 document that bears the Bates range TU62027 through 14 056. 15 and, therefore, I don't think we need to mark it 16 again. And it is marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 3; 17 18 Have you seen this document before, Mr. Trump? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What is this document? 21 A I think it's basically an operating 22 agreement with respect to the company itself. 23 Q And when you say "the company itself" -- 24 A The people involved with the ownership of Page 123 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 124 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 125 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 the company. 2 Q 3 Trump University? 4 A Yes. 5 Q So did you review that agreement at the 6 When you say "the company," you mean LLC. time it was signed? 7 A Probably. 8 this. 9 that do it, yes. I mean, I have lawyers that do I don't think I did it, but I have lawyers 10 Q Okay. 11 A Uh-huh. 12 Q Do you see near the top of the page, it Do you see on Page TU62054 -- 13 says "DJT University Managing Member LLC"? 14 "By Donald J. Trump, President." 15 A Yes. 16 Q Is that your signature? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And below that, do you see "DJT 19 University Member LLC"? 20 President." It says It says "By Donald J. Trump, 21 A Yes. 22 Q Is that your signature? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Continuing to Page 62037. Page 124 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 125 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 126 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 A Yes. 2 Q Do you see 4.1.6? 3 A Yes. 4 Q "Sexton shall prepare and deliver to the 5 manager in the time and manner set forth in the 6 Sexton Employment Agreement, the operating budget and 7 business plan." 8 Do you see that? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And when it says "to the manager," is 11 that referring to you? 12 A I don't know who it refers to. 13 have to ask my lawyers. I don't know. 14 definition, so I just don't know. You'd It's a legal 15 Q 16 operating budget? 17 A I don't know. Q Do you recall whether he prepared and 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Did Sexton prepare and deliver to you an Perhaps, but I just don't know. delivered to you the business plan? A I don't know. He might have. I just don't remember it. Q Do you re- -- okay. Do you recall a Trump University blog? Page 125 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 126 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 127 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 A A blog? 2 Q A blog. 3 A I don't recall specifically. 4 What blog? If you show it to me, I'd let you know. 5 Q Do you have a staff writer named Meredith 7 A Yes. 8 Q Did she ordinarily draft blog entries for 10 A Yes. 11 Q Do you personally recall writing any blog A Yes. 6 9 12 13 McGiver? you? entries? I do it with Meredith or sometimes 14 she'd do it for me. 15 with Meredith McGiver. 16 17 Q But yes, that was done mostly And what is Meredith McGiver's background? 18 A She's mostly a writer -- I don't know her 19 exact background. 20 me for a long time. I'd have to look. She's been with She writes well. 21 Q Does she have a real estate background? 22 A I don't know. 23 Q Did you ever attend a retreat for Trump 24 That I don't know. University? Page 126 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 127 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 128 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 A You'd have to give me when. 2 Q Do you recall going to Atlanta for a 3 retreat with Trump University? 4 A You'd have to show me the dates. 5 don't know. 6 companies, and I don't know. 7 did, but I don't know. 8 9 Q I just I go to many places for many different It's possible that I Do you recall going to Las Vegas for a Trump University retreat? 10 A I think so, yes. 11 Q Do you recall the dates? 12 A No. 13 Q Would that be in your planner? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q But those types of engagements would 16 You'd have to check. ordinarily be marked in your calendar; correct? 17 A Perhaps. 18 Q Is there a target market for Trump 19 University? 20 A No, I don't think so. I think mostly it 21 would be people that want to learn about whatever it 22 is they're looking to learn. 23 market that you have for many other companies that do 24 this. Probably the same Page 127 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 128 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 129 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 Q September 12, 2012 When you say "companies that do this," do you mean other real estate -- 3 A Teach. 4 Q -- seminars? 5 A That teach. 6 Q Companies that teach real estate? 7 A Yeah. 8 Q Do you know how many of the Trump 9 University students were senior citizens? 10 A No, I don't. 11 Q Have you ever used a Bandit Sign in your 12 real estate deals? 13 A Who? 14 Q Bandit Signs? 15 A I don't know what that is. 16 Q So you've never used a Bandit Sign, to 17 your knowledge? 18 19 20 21 A I don't know what you're even talking Q Okay. about. Do you recall sitting down for a video made for Trump University? 22 A No, but I'm sure I have. 23 Q Okay. 24 So you don't recall, sitting here, whether -- what year it was made? Page 128 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 129 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 130 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 A No. 2 Q Do you recall sitting down for multiple A I don't know. 3 videos? 4 5 I mean I did some videos for Trump University, but it was years ago. 6 Q 7 or more than one? 8 A No. 9 Q Earlier you testified that you had So you don't remember whether it was one 10 attended for a few minutes a couple of live events. 11 Did you ever personally meet a Trump University 12 student? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And who was that? 15 A I don't know. They saw me in the room, a 16 couple of them. One actually came back and shook my 17 hand and then went back immediately to the seat. 18 I don't really know the names. 19 Q And so you didn't discuss anything? 20 A I didn't hang around long. 21 22 But I just wanted to see how it was going conceptually. Q Do you know whether any of the students 23 made a million dollars or more using Trump 24 University's techniques? Page 129 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 130 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 131 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 A 2 September 12, 2012 You'd have to ask Mr. Sexton. But I did. I made a million dollars or 3 more, and using my own techniques, unlike a lot of 4 instructors that teach real estate and never made 10 5 cents. 6 7 MS. ZELDES: I thought we weren't allowed to ask about that. 8 THE WITNESS: 9 MR. SCHNEIDER: 10 THE WITNESS: 12 MS. ZELDES: 14 15 She's just being a smart aleck. 11 13 What? That's okay. So is he. BY MS. JENSEN: Q Which of your real estate courses were taught in the three-day seminar? 16 A You'd have to ask Mr. Sexton. 17 Q And which of your real estate secrets 18 were taught as part of the mentorship? 19 A You'd have to ask Mr. Sexton. 20 that information. 21 THE WITNESS: 22 MS. JENSEN: 23 24 He has all Want to take a break? Let's go ahead and get through one more thing and then we can take a break. MR. SCHNEIDER: We're ready to keep Page 130 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 131 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 132 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 going. He thought you needed a break. 2 on unless you need a break. We can drive 3 THE WITNESS: No, that's fine. 4 (Discussion off the stenographic 5 record.) 6 MS. JENSEN: Let the record reflect that 7 we're showing a YouTube video entitled "Trump 8 University and Donald Trump." 9 Can you see the screen? 10 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. 11 (Whereupon, YouTube video is 12 played.) 13 MR. SCHNEIDER: 14 MS. ECK: 15 HTTP://www.YouTube.com/watch?feature= What's the site on that? It is www.YouTube -- hold on. 16 player_detailpage&V=465TCEDzzoH0. And I believe it 17 is similar or identical to other videos that were 18 produced and Bates-stamped, and we just weren't able 19 to access those here. 20 BY MS. JENSEN: 21 Q Mr. Trump, do you recognize this video? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And what video is this? 24 A Well, this was made for Trump University, Page 131 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 132 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 133 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 3 September 12, 2012 yes. Q Do you recall when it was made for Trump University? 4 A No. 5 Q Do you recall the purpose? 6 A I was asked to do a video for Trump 7 University. 8 Q Was there any specific purpose? 9 A Just a general -- I mean, if you look at 10 other colleges or if you look at other schools or if 11 you look at other training centers, they all do 12 videos and they say positive things, yeah. 13 Q And was that video scripted? 14 A No, I don't believe so. 15 Q So that was in your words? 16 A I think so. 17 18 19 my words, yes. Q It was -- I think it was in I don't believe it was scripted. Do you have involvement in advertising and marketing of Trump University? 20 A Not too much. 21 Q Do you recall whose idea it was to use 22 23 24 your signature as part of the advertising? A advertising. I use it all the time. It's part of I don't think it's anything unique. So Page 132 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 133 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 134 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 does a lot of other people in business. 2 signature, yeah. 3 many people in many, many big corporations in 4 advertising. 5 You use your It's used consistently by many, MS. JENSEN: I'm going to hand to the 6 court reporter a document bearing the Bates stamp 7 TU102422 to 426, which I will ask to be marked as 8 Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 42. 9 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 42 was marked 10 11 for identification.) BY MS. JENSEN: 12 Q Do you recognize this document? 13 A I've seen it. 14 Q And what is this document? 15 A This is a document talking about 16 different locations, I believe, for the seminars. 17 18 Vaguely, yes. Q Okay. And it's kind of a bad copy. But do you see the second page, 102423? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And is that your picture there on the 22 A Yes. 23 Q And is that your signature below the 21 24 left? picture? Page 133 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 134 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 135 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 A Yes. 2 Q Does it say "I can turn anyone into a 3 successful real estate investor"? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And below your signature, does it say 6 "Donald J. Trump, Chairman, Trump University"? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And do you see the Page TU102425? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And do you see there it states, "Learn to 11 invest like a billionaire"? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Pursuant to the Court's suggestion in 14 this case, plaintiffs Googled your net worth and 15 found that there's a controversy as to whether you're 16 a billionaire. Would you agree? 17 A No -- 18 Q Did you file a lawsuit against the 19 journalist who stated that you were worth in the 20 hundreds of millions and not the billions? 21 A Yeah, I have -- yes, I did, actually. 22 Q And what was the outcome of that suit? 23 A Well, the suit was dismissed on the basis 24 that there were no -- what is the word? -Page 134 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 135 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 136 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 retribution or something -- animosity. 2 It -- 3 Q Actual malice? 4 A Malice, I guess. 5 Q Actual malice? 6 A Yeah, malice. Lack of. Not dismissed for any 7 other reason. 8 malice. 9 proven -- it's been proven by many other people. 10 And that was a long time ago. It's been Q Did you approve ads that said "Learn to invest like a billionaire"? 13 A Did I what? 14 Q Did you improve -- 15 A Yes. 16 Q Let me ask it again, because I said 17 "improve" and not "approve." 18 same? 19 20 But that's okay. 11 12 It was dismissed for, essentially, A Yeah. But the answer is the Well, I am a billionaire, many times over, by the way. 21 Q And did you approve ads? 22 A And the writer knew that, and the writer 23 knew that. But again, that was a long time ago. 24 the writer knew that. But So, unfortunately, we didn't Page 135 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 136 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 137 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 get our day in court. 2 3 September 12, 2012 Excuse me. have sued him. 4 Q 5 from the master"? 6 A 7 And did you approve ads that said "Learn Yeah, probably. advertising thing. 8 9 And if I wasn't, I wouldn't It's more of an But I would assume I did. MS. JENSEN: I'm going to now hand to the court reporter a document bearing the Bates stamp 10 TU69463, which I will ask to be marked as Plaintiffs' 11 Exhibit No. 43. 12 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 43 was marked 13 for identification.) 14 THE WITNESS: 15 Okay. BY MS. JENSEN: 16 Q Have you seen this document before? 17 A I'm not sure if I remember it, but -- 18 Q Do you see the advertisement says "Donald 19 Trump is sending you one of his handpicked associates 20 to your area to teach you"? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And did you approve advertising that had 23 24 that language? A Possibly. Possibly. Page 136 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 137 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 138 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 3 September 12, 2012 Q Okay. Sitting here now, you don't A No, I don't. recall? 4 MS. JENSEN: Now, I am handing to the 5 court reporter a document bearing the Bates stamp 6 TU69434, which I will ask to be marked as Plaintiffs' 7 Exhibit No. 44. 8 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 44 was marked 9 for identification.) 10 BY MS. JENSEN: 11 Q 12 document? 13 A No. 14 Q Do you see the -- do you see inside the Mr. Trump, do you recognize this 15 image it says, "Are you my next apprentice? 16 from the master"? 17 A Right. 18 Q Did you approve advertising that said 19 20 21 22 Learn "Are you my next apprentice"? A I don't remember it, but I see nothing wrong with it. MS. JENSEN: I'm going to hand to the 23 court reporter a document that bears the Bates stamp 24 TU62063, which I will ask to be marked as Plaintiffs' Page 137 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 138 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 139 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 Exhibit No. 45. The Bates is very small on that. 2 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 45 was marked 3 for identification.) 4 BY MS. JENSEN: 5 Q 6 document? 7 A 8 Mr. Trump, do you recognize this No. I may have seen it, but I don't recognize it. 9 Q Do you know what this document is? 10 A No. I mean, I can read it. I see what 11 it says, but I don't recognize this document. 12 may have seen it. 13 Q 14 15 Okay. But I Now, when you -- if you reviewed an advertisement, who would have provided it to you? A 16 Mr. Sexton. MS. JENSEN: Now, I am handing the court 17 reporter a document bearing the Bates stamp TU64496 18 through 97, which I will ask to be marked as 19 Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 46. 20 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 46 was marked 21 for identification.) 22 THE WITNESS: 23 24 Okay. BY MS. JENSEN: Q Do you recognize this document? Page 138 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 139 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 140 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 A September 12, 2012 I don't remember it, but probably saw it someplace. 3 Q Do you see it says the "Trump Blog"? 4 A Trump brand? 5 Q It says "Trump Blog." 6 A Where is that? 7 8 I see the Trump brand, here. The Trump brand. 9 Q The Trump Blog? 10 A Oh, up top. 11 Q Okay. 13 A Yes, I do. 14 Q Okay. 15 A It's my site. 16 Q And what is the site? 17 A On the Internet. 18 Q And what is it -- specifically, what's 19 the site? 20 A 12 21 Yes. Do you recognize what the Trump Blog is? Mr. Sexton. What is it? I don't know. It's a site. You'd have to ask He set this up for the university. 22 Q But sitting here, you don't recognize it? 23 A No. 24 Q Okay. Page 139 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 140 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 141 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 MS. JENSEN: I'm now handing to the court 2 reporter a document that bears the Bates stamp 3 TU60667, which I'll ask to be marked as Plaintiffs' 4 Exhibit No. 47. 5 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 47 was marked 6 for identification.) 7 BY MS. JENSEN: 8 Q Do you recognize this document? 9 A I've seen it, yes. 10 Q What is this document? 11 A It's a personal message from Donald Q And personal message to whom? 12 Trump. 13 14 (Simultaneous cross-talk.) 15 16 A the -- yes, to the students. 17 18 Q A Well, let's see. I have to look at it. Q Okay. And did you draft this personal A No, it was done by the executives in the message? 23 24 Is it also to It looks like it's to the students. 21 22 To the students. prospective students? 19 20 The students or potential students to company. Page 140 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 141 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 142 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 Q Do you know who? 2 A Probably Mr. Sexton and his group. 3 Q Okay. 4 A I think it would be fine. 5 Q Did you ever answer any live questions 6 7 and answers from Trump University? A 8 9 Would you have approved it? I don't know. MS. JENSEN: Now, I am handing the court reporter a document bearing the Bates stamp TU25206 10 to TU25209, which I will ask be marked as Plaintiffs' 11 Exhibit No. 48. 12 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 48 was marked 13 for identification.) 14 BY MS. JENSEN: 15 Q 16 document? 17 A 18 19 Mr. Trump, do you recognize this I may have seen it. I don't recognize it, but I may have seen it. Q Did you believe that students could go to 20 the 90-minute class and learn all that they needed to 21 learn to get rich? 22 A Where is that now? 23 Q Now, in the middle of the page. 24 "Come to my free class. It says, In just 90 minutes" -Page 141 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 142 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 143 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 A Which page? 2 Q Yes, the second page, I'm sorry. 3 A 07. 4 Q 07, my fault. 5 A It doesn't say what you said, though. 6 Q Okay. 7 A I mean, I think the statement is okay, 8 9 Second page? but it doesn't say what you said. Q Do you believe that students could come 10 to the 90-minute free class and learn the techniques 11 and then copy exactly what you did and get rich? 12 A Sure. In certain instances. I did it. 13 I used my techniques and I've made a tremendous 14 amount of money. 15 Q And what are your techniques? 16 A Real estate techniques. I discuss them. 17 Things that you read about in the course are my 18 techniques. 19 a student of myself in a sense. 20 I've -- you know, you could also say I'm But I've used my techniques, unlike other 21 people that talk about real estate and how they're 22 going to teach real estate, they've never done a deal 23 in their lives. 24 suing, not Trump. Those are the people you should be Page 142 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 143 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 144 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 I've used my techniques and they've been 2 very successful for me. 3 other people. 4 5 Q So if I can do it, so can Could you tell me which tech books were taught in the 90-minute course? 6 A Just my general feelings on locations, on 7 purchasing, on renovations, on rehabilitations, on 8 lots of different things. 9 10 A lot of things having to do with real estate. 11 12 Q And when you say your "general feelings," what are your general feelings? 13 A Markets. I've convinced a lot of people 14 not to buy real estate over the years when they would 15 have lost their shirt if they did. 16 In speeches I've told people "Don't buy 17 real estate." 18 mortgages," "Don't use different forms of financing." 19 And a lot of people listened to me, and they didn't 20 do it. 21 I've told people "Don't use exploding And I've had, over the years, many, many 22 letters written to me thanking me for saving their 23 lives. 24 Q Were all those techniques taught in the Page 143 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 144 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 145 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 courses? 2 A Some of them were. 3 Q Which ones? 4 A There was a period of time when I thought 5 buying real estate as not a good thing, early on, and 6 I was right about that. 7 And I know -- I let the professors know 8 that, and I think some of the professors actually 9 said that I don't feel that buying real estate right 10 now is a good thing. 11 And I was right. My timing happened to 12 be right. 13 Q And what time frame was that? 14 A It was early on. 15 Q Around what year? 16 A I don't know. 17 Early on, during the -- during the time prior to the trouble in real estate. 18 Q And -- 19 A And if people listened to me, they would 20 have saved a lot of their money. 21 Q And so the courses taught the students -- 22 A Some of the courses did. 23 courses weren't all the same. 24 professors make their points also. As I said, the I wanted to have I didn't want to Page 144 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 145 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 146 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 make the single point. 2 make their point also. 3 I wanted to have professors But I told -- over the years I've told 4 many people to buy and not to buy. 5 turned out to be very propitious. 6 7 Q So the not-to-buy version, was that during the bubble, 2005/2006? 8 9 Okay. And my timing A Before the bubble, yeah. Before the explosion. 10 Q Before the bubble burst; right? 11 A Before the bubble burst. 12 Q To 2005 and 2006? 13 A Before the bubble burst. And I felt very 14 negative about buying real estate, because I've seen 15 it before. 16 Trump University. 17 told people "Do not buy. 18 to buy." 19 And I've made speeches -- unrelated to But I've made speeches where I This is not the right time I also talked about exploding mortgages, 20 mortgages that come due at a later date. 21 had many, many letters of people thanking me for 22 literally saving them. 23 24 Q And I've And so the issue of exploding mortgage, was that taught in the courses? Page 145 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 146 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 147 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 3 4 5 6 A September 12, 2012 In some cases it was. Again, the courses were different. Q Okay. Can you name one course where that was taught? A I could find out. I could check, but I certainly discussed it. 7 Now, if the professor wanted to discuss 8 that, that's good. 9 disagreed with me, and that was okay with me, because 10 And sometimes maybe they it's not an exact science. 11 But in some cases, they possibly 12 disagreed; and in some cases, they probably didn't. 13 But you could ask Mr. Sexton about that. 14 MS. JENSEN: I'm now handing the court 15 reporter a document that bears the Bates stamp 16 TU62091 through TU62100. 17 to mark as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 49. Hand to the court reporter 18 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 49 was marked 19 for identification.) 20 BY MS. JENSEN: 21 Q 22 document? 23 A I may have seen it a long time ago. 24 Q Do you see that the document says "The Mr. Trump, do you recognize this Page 146 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 147 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 148 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 time to invest in Texas real estate is now"? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did you approve that message? 4 A What date is this? 5 Q It says publication date is 2009. 6 A Yeah, I would have approved it. 7 8 9 10 This ad? I think that would have been a good time to invest. Q Sure. How about in 2008? Was that a good time to invest? A I don't know. I can't remember. But I 11 do remember it was around 2009 that I started 12 thinking things are getting much better to invest. 13 Q Okay. 14 A I don't know. How about in 2007? I remember at this time it 15 was -- if they would have listened to me, they would 16 have done very well. 17 done very nicely. 18 Q 19 20 23 24 Now, do you know whether Trump University was registered to do business in Texas? A 21 22 At least Texas real estate has I don't know. MS. JENSEN: Let's go ahead and take a quick break. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: record at 2:27 p.m. We're going off the This marks the end of Tape Page 147 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 148 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 149 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 No. 2. 2 (Recess taken.) 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 4 record at 3:01 p.m. 5 No. 3. 6 BY MS. JENSEN: We're back on the This marks the beginning of Tape 7 Q 8 in Las Vegas was? 9 A No. 10 Q Would it surprise you if I said December 12 A No. 13 Q And do you believe you were there? 14 A I believe I've been in Las Vegas many, 11 Mr. Trump, do you recall when the retreat of 2009? 15 many times making speeches and other things. 16 may have been there, yes. So I 17 Q But sitting here, you can't recall? 18 A No, I can't recall it exactly, no. 19 20 I believe so, but I can't recall it. Q Okay. 21 MR. SCHNEIDER: Just so you know, I think 22 she's talking about training sessions. 23 actually a Trump program. 24 instructors. This wasn't This was training Page 148 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 149 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 150 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 September 12, 2012 THE WITNESS: I understand, yeah. BY MS. JENSEN: 3 Q Okay. 5 A I don't recall. 6 Q Okay. 4 7 So sitting here, do you recall that -- And do you recall when the Atlanta retreat was? 8 A No, I don't. 9 Q Would December 2008 -- 10 A No, no. 11 Q -- surprise you? 12 You don't believe you were there? 13 A I'm not sure. 14 Q Was Mr. Sexton in charge of hiring Trump 15 University management? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And was he in charge of hiring Trump 18 University sales staff? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Did you have any role in that? 21 A Only that I wanted really good people. 22 Q For the sales staff? 23 A For everything -- well, frankly, as far 24 as I'm concerned, the professors were more Page 149 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 150 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 151 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 important -- the teachers were more important than 2 anything. 3 got the best teachers. 4 5 MS. JENSEN: THE WITNESS: 10 11 12 What does that mean? Q Well, I was just asking about sales A Would you read the question again or staff. would you read my answer. Q 13 14 I'm just going to BY MS. JENSEN: 8 9 Sure. move to strike everything after "for everything." 6 7 But my primary focus was to make sure we Sure. Was he in charge of -- "was he in charge of hiring Trump University sales staff?" 15 "Yes." 16 "Did you have any role in that?" 17 "Only that I wanted really good people." 18 "For the sales staff?" 19 "For everything." 20 21 A No, I'd like to say it the way I continued. 22 My most important thing were the 23 teachers. 24 Q I understand, Mr. Trump. You already Page 150 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 151 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 152 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 answered my question. 2 3 A more important to me was the teachers. MS. JENSEN: 10 MR. SCHNEIDER: She can say those words. It doesn't have any effect. BY MS. JENSEN: 11 12 I'm just going to move to strike everything after "the sales staff." 8 9 I didn't answer -- I'm The sales staff was important, but much 6 7 Excuse me. telling you I did not answer. 4 5 September 12, 2012 Q Were the instructors hired for their sale abilities? 13 A I don't know. You'd have to ask 14 Mr. Sexton. 15 abilities much more important than sales. 16 come. 17 I wanted them hired for their teaching MS. JENSEN: 18 after "I don't know. 19 BY MS. JENSEN: 20 21 Q Sales will Move to strike everything You'll have to ask Mr. Sexton." Were instructors and mentors paid exclusively on commissions? 22 A You'd have to ask Mr. Sexton. 23 Q What is your knowledge concerning the 24 New York Attorney General's investigation of Trump Page 151 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 152 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 153 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 University? 2 3 September 12, 2012 A it. I really don't have too much knowledge of I'm really not very well aware of it. 4 Q Are you aware of it? 5 A Slightly. 6 7 I mean, I think ... MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't want you to talk about anything that you discussed with counsel. 8 THE WITNESS: 9 much about it. 10 BY MS. JENSEN: Yeah, I really don't know 11 Q 12 Attorney General? 13 A No. 14 Q Did they take your deposition? 15 A I don't think so. 16 Q But -- 17 A I mean no. 18 Q Thank you. 19 20 Were you interviewed by the New York Did anyone from the New York Attorney General have direct contact with you? 21 A No. 22 Q Do you know who's been handling that? 23 A Yes, we have a lawyer that handled that. 24 Q Which lawyer is that? Page 152 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 153 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 154 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 A September 12, 2012 It's a law firm. from -- 3 MR. SCHNEIDER: 4 information. 5 BY MS. JENSEN: 6 7 Q 10 She already has the I have to get it from Mr. Schneider; is that what you said? 8 9 You'd have to get that MR. SCHNEIDER: You already have it. Mr. Sexton testified about it. He told you the name of the lawyer and the name of the firm. 11 I really want to make a suggestion, 12 recommend to you that you streamline and ask 13 questions. 14 questions that you've either already asked Mr. Sexton 15 or you should have asked him. 16 BY MS. JENSEN: 17 18 19 Q He's not going to stay here and answer What is the status of the investigation; do you know? A I haven't heard about it in a long time. 20 This was brought up a long time ago. 21 heard anything about it in a long time. 22 I have not I think they probably looked at it and 23 they saw 97 percent. And I don't know how you can be 24 investigated when you have a 97 percent approval Page 153 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 154 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 155 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 rating. 2 time. September 12, 2012 So -- but I haven't heard about it in a long 3 MS. JENSEN: I'm going to move to strike 4 everything after "I have not heard anything about it 5 for a long time." 6 BY MS. JENSEN: 7 8 Q by any regulators that you know of? 9 10 Have any other investigations been opened A Not that I know of. about Texas, but that went away. I heard something Long time ago. 11 Q Do you know why it went away? 12 A No. 13 Q Do you know if it's because Trump 14 University suspended its operations there? 15 A No. 16 Q Were you aware that the Better Business 17 I don't know anything about it. Bureau had a rating of D minus for Trump University? 18 A That's because they had no knowledge. 19 When they found out more about it, they didn't rate 20 it. 21 "nonrating." They gave it a -- I think they call it a 22 They didn't have the knowledge of Trump 23 University. When they heard more about it, they 24 changed that rating to a different rating, which is Page 154 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 155 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 156 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 basically the current status. 2 Q So the "nothing" rating? 3 A I think it's unrated or something like 5 Q Okay. 6 A Because they didn't have the information. Q Mr. Trump -- that's fine. 4 7 8 that. We -- 9 10 Who told you about the Better Business rating of D minus? 11 A I think Mr. Sexton. 12 Q Do you remember when he told you that? 13 A No; a long time ago. 14 Q Do you recall what he said about it? 15 A As I remember, he said we never got a 16 chance to discuss it with them or -- this is what I 17 remember. 18 we did discuss it with them, they took that rating 19 off and they had it unrated because they didn't have 20 enough information. 21 Q We never had a chance to discuss it. Did Mr. Sexton ever tell you about 22 students complaining that they were contacted to 23 change their approval ratings? 24 A Once No, he didn't. Page 155 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 156 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 157 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 Q Did you hear that from anyone else? 2 A No. Seems unlikely, with thousands of 3 people, including your client, that gave us a great 4 rating, by the way. 5 MS. JENSEN: I'm going to move to strike 6 everything after the word "no." 7 BY MS. JENSEN: 8 9 Q I'm now going to hand to Mr. Trump a document that bears the Bates stamp TU01581 through 10 TU01602, which is marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 7 11 and therefore need not be re-marked as an exhibit for 12 this deposition. 13 14 Mr. Trump, do you recognize this document? 15 16 MS. JENSEN: that version. 17 I'm sorry. Please give me Thank you. THE WITNESS: Could you not lick your 18 finger before you give me a document, please. 19 that be okay? 20 BY MS. JENSEN: 21 22 23 24 Q Would It's disgusting. Do you recognize this document, Mr. Trump? A Not really. time, I might. I'm sure if I spent a lot of Let me see. I don't really recognize Page 156 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 157 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 158 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 September 12, 2012 it, no. 2 Q Were you aware that Trump University was 3 the owner of the trademark and service mark Trump 4 Institute? 5 6 A I'm not -- you'd have to speak to Mr. Sexton about this. 7 8 No. Q And on Page 18 of the document, which is TU01598 -- 9 A 18, do you mean -- 10 Q At the bottom. 11 A What's the status you've been going 13 Q Let's go with TU01598. 14 A 598, okay. 15 Q And do you see, is that your signature A Yes. 12 16 17 18 under? Yes. there? MS. JENSEN: Now, I am handing to the 19 court reporter a document bearing the Bates stamp 20 TUPLTF00199 through 200, which I will ask be marked 21 as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 50. 22 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 50 was marked 23 for identification.) 24 BY MS. JENSEN: Page 157 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 158 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 159 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 Q September 12, 2012 Do you recognize this document, Mr. Trump? 3 A No, I don't believe I've seen it, but I 4 may have. 5 Q Do you believe that you wrote this? 6 A Maybe I had something to do with it. I'm 7 not sure that I wrote it per se, but I might have had 8 something to do with it. 9 at this moment. 10 Q I just don't recognize it Do you see in the third paragraph, it 11 says: 12 People pay a lot more to live or rent commercial 13 space in my buildings because of the association with 14 me and my ideals." "The Trump name carries with it a price tag. 15 A Yes. 16 Q Do you believe that that's true? 17 A I do. 18 Q What is your affiliation with Trump 19 20 Institute? A The Trump Institute? 21 the exact relationship is. 22 Mr. Sexton about that. 23 24 Q I don't know what Again, you'd have to ask When was the last time you spoke with Mr. Sexton? Page 158 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 159 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 160 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 A September 12, 2012 I don't know. I'm not exactly sure. 2 few months ago probably. 3 not exactly sure. 4 time because we've become a little bit inactive with 5 respect to this, unfortunately. 6 7 Q 9 longer than that. Q Okay. Maybe six months ago. Do you know what you spoke about six months ago? 14 A No, nothing much. We have a very nice relationship. 16 Q So what was -- do you remember whether he called you? 18 19 I would say -- no, I would say for the most part he's I don't know. 12 17 I don't remember. been dealing with my people and my lawyers. 11 15 I haven't spoken to him in a long probably"? A 13 A No, I don't remember. I just vaguely remember having spoken to him quite some time ago. 20 Q It was about Trump University? 21 A I don't know. 22 that. 23 lawyers. 24 I am And so you said "a few months ago 8 10 Four or five months. A I don't really even know For the most part he's dealing with my Q Okay. And did Mr. Sexton leave Page 159 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 160 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 161 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 September 12, 2012 voluntarily? A I would say we became more and more 3 inactive, because of schedules -- my schedule in 4 particular, I guess. 5 And we'll possibly start this up again in 6 a heavy way. 7 be -- he did leave voluntarily, yes. 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q But yes, I would say the word would Do you know whether one of the prerequisites for being an instructor or mentor was that they were millionaires? A No, I don't know that. You'd have to ask Mr. Sexton. Q Now, handing to the court reporter a 14 document bearing the Bates stamp TU102907, which is 15 marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 19 and therefore 16 does not need to be re-marked. 17 18 Do you recognize this document? A 19 20 No. Let's see. For Michael Bloom. No, I don't know what it represents. Q Did you call Mr. Sexton on July 12th, 21 2010, to talk to them about how much negative stuff 22 there is out there? 23 24 A Negative -- press? I don't know what they're talking about. Page 160 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 161 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 162 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 Q Do you recall? 2 A Negative stuff -- I don't remember having 3 made a call. 4 Q Do you recall having that conversation? 5 A No, I don't. 6 Q And do you recall what it was referring 7 to when it says "negative stuff"? 8 9 10 11 I told you I don't. A out. No. That's what I'm trying to figure I don't know what the word "stuff" means. No, I don't really know what it means. Q Do you know who he's referring to when he 12 says "Have the reputation management people made any 13 progress"? 14 A 15 Have the reputation management people -I really don't know what he means. 16 Q So you don't know who the -- 17 A No. 18 19 20 I know the reputation of this was very important and continues to be very important. Q Earlier I believe that we spoke about J.J. Childers. 21 A Yes. 22 Q Who is Mr. Childers? 23 A I don't know. 24 He was one of the instructors, I believe. Page 161 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 162 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 163 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 Q And how do you know him? 2 A I don't know him. 3 But I believe he was a highly respected gentleman who worked for the school. 4 Q And so you've never met him? 5 A I don't know. 6 I don't remember. have, but I don't remember. 7 Q And Don Sexton? 8 A I believe I did meet Mr. Sexton. 9 instructor. 10 11 I may Q Who is he? He's an Highly respected. When you say "instructor," do you mean he wrote a book? 12 A No, I believe he taught classes. 13 Q Okay. 15 A I believe so, yes. 16 Q He did not teach the live events; A I don't know that. 14 17 18 19 Did he teach online courses; correct? correct? You'd have to ask Mr. Sexton, Michael Sexton. 20 Q 21 with him? 22 A No. 23 Q Don Sexton? 24 A Yeah, no. Do you remember how many times you met Page 162 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 163 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 164 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 Q September 12, 2012 And when you did meet with him, do you 2 recall what you discussed? 3 MR. SCHNEIDER: 4 MS. JENSEN: 5 MR. SCHNEIDER: 6 this morning. 7 single day. 8 9 With Don Sexton? Yes. He went through all this You went through the calendar, every MS. ZELDES: Michael, that was Michael Sexton. 10 MR. SCHNEIDER: I apologize. Some of 11 those were Don Sexton, actually, but -- do you 12 remember any specific -- 13 THE WITNESS: Don Sexton was actually one 14 of them. No, not specifically other than I -- I did 15 say "I want everybody, including him, to do a great 16 job." 17 BY MS. JENSEN: 18 Q Who is Robert Caplan? 19 A I believe he was an instructor. 20 Q When you say "instructor," it was online 21 courses; correct? 22 A 23 24 Online, yes, but could be other also. You'd have to ask Michael. Q Okay. And did you meet Mr. Caplan? Page 163 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 164 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 165 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 A I believe so. 2 Q Okay. 3 A Long time ago. 4 Q You're not sure that you did? 5 A I'm not sure that I did. 6 Q Right. 7 But I'm not sure. Many years ago. How about I believe you mentioned Gary Eldred? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And who is Mr. Eldred? 10 A I don't remember; he's an instructor. 11 Q For the online courses? 12 A I don't know. 13 I think it's online, but perhaps also the regular. 14 Q But you don't know? 15 A I don't know what? 16 MR. SCHNEIDER: 17 believes. 18 BY MS. JENSEN: 19 He just told you what he Q Would I have to ask Mr. Sexton, Michael 21 A Yes. 22 Q And did you ever meet him in person? 23 A Who? 24 Q Mr. Eldred. 20 Sexton? Page 164 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 165 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 166 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 A I may have, yes. 2 Q Okay. 3 A No. 4 Q And you don't recall what you discussed? 5 A No. 6 Q Now, Mr. Trump, do you recall seeing any 7 But you can't recall specifically? Too many years ago. discovery responses in this case? 8 A No. 9 Q Do you know who Mr. Roger Schank is? 10 A No. 11 Q Mr. John Vogel? 12 A No. 13 I mean, I may have met these people, but I don't remember them. 14 MS. JENSEN: 15 quick break. 16 we'll be right back. We're just going to take a We'll be right back. If you would, 17 (Discussion off the stenographic 18 record.) 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 20 3:20 p.m. 21 (Recess taken.) 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 23 24 Off the record. We are back on the record at 3:32 p.m. MS. JENSEN: I'm now going to hand to the Page 165 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 166 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 167 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. September 12, 2012 1 court reporter a document which is a portion of a 2 PowerPoint presentation produced by Trump University, 3 which bears the Bates stamp TU59124, which I will ask 4 be marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 51. 5 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 51 was marked 6 for identification.) 7 BY MS. JENSEN: 8 Q Do you recognize this document? 9 A I think I do, yes. 10 Q And what is this document? 11 A It's various properties that I've built, 12 owned, or something. 13 that I've been involved with. 14 Q But it's a list of properties And would you say that this slide 15 contains images of buildings that are representative 16 in your real estate portfolio? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And would you say that you've been 19 primarily involved in large-scale real estate 20 projects? 21 A Yes, among other things. 22 Q Do you currently have any ownership or Yes. 23 licensing interest in any other real estate investing 24 courses other than Trump University? Page 166 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 167 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 168 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 A 2 separate. 3 Q September 12, 2012 No, other than speeches, which is Do you recall that when Michael Sexton 4 first came to you about Trump University, he had 5 originally offered a licensing agreement? 6 7 A No. but I don't remember. 8 Q 9 Estate Institute? Are you familiar with a New York Real 10 A 11 particularly, no. 12 Q 13 It's possible that that happened, New York Real Estate Institute? Not So you don't have any type of interest in the New York Real Estate Institute? 14 A You'd have to speak to my lawyers. It 15 doesn't sound like it, unless it's an offshoot or 16 something. 17 But you'd have to speak to my lawyers. MS. JENSEN: That's all my questions for 18 now. Plaintiffs will reserve their right to reopen 19 this deposition in the event that the Court rules 20 that the topic for which Mr. Trump was designated 21 should be testified by him; or in addition to the 22 extent that the defendants have not provided all 23 relevant documents, plaintiffs also reserve our 24 rights. Page 167 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 168 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 169 of 669 Donald J. Trump, Sr. 1 2 September 12, 2012 MR. SCHNEIDER: That concludes the deposition. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 5 testimony of Donald J. Trump. 6 record at 3:06 p.m. Thank you. This concludes the We are going off the This concludes Tape No. 3. 7 (Videotaped deposition concluded 8 at 3:06 p.m.) 9 10 11 12 C E R T I F I C A T I O N 13 14 15 I hereby certify that I have read the 16 foregoing transcript of my deposition testimony, and 17 that my answers to the questions propounded, with the 18 attached corrections or changes, if any, are true and 19 correct. 20 ----------------------------------21 DONALD J. TRUMP, SR. 22 23 24 Page 168 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 1 page 169 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 170 of 669 EXHIBIT 2 Exhibit 2 page 170 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 171 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA ·3 ·4 · · ·5 · · ·6 · · ·7 · · ·8 · · ·9 · · 10 ART COHEN, Individually) ) ·and on Behalf of All Others Similarly )No. 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG ) ·Situated, ) CLASS ACTION Plaintiff, ) · ) ) ·VS. ) ) ·DONALD J. TRUMP, ) Defendant. ) · 11 ** CONFIDENTIAL ** CONFIDENTIAL ** 12 ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DONALD J. TRUMP 13 14 Thursday, December 10, 2015 15 725 Fifth Avenue, 16th Floor 16 New York, New York 17 18 19 20 21 Reported By: 22 EILEEN MULVENNA, CSR/RMR/CRR 23 Job No. 10020374 24 25 Page 1 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 171 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 172 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT ·1 ·2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA ·3 ·4 · · ·5 · · ·6 · · ·7 · · ·8 · · ·9 · · 10 ART COHEN, Individually) ·and on Behalf of All ) Others Similarly )No. 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG ·Situated, ) ) CLASS ACTION · Plaintiff, ) ) ) ·VS. ) ) ·DONALD J. TRUMP, ) Defendant. ) · 11 12 13 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION of DONALD J. TRUMP, 14 Defendant in the above-captioned matter, taken 16 by Plaintiffs, held at the offices of the Trump 17 Organization, 725 Fifth Avenue, New York, New 18 York, beginning at 10:05 a.m. and ending 5:02 19 p.m., on December 10, 2015, before Eileen 20 Mulvenna, CSR/RMR/CRR, Certified Shorthand 21 Reporter, Registered Merit Reporter, Certified 22 Realtime Reporter and Notary Public of the State 23 of New York. 24 25 Page 2 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 172 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 173 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump A P P E A R A N C E S: ·2 ·3 · · ·4 · · ·5 · · ·6 · · ·7 · · ·8 · · ·9 · · · · · · ROBBINS GELLER RUDMAN & DOWD, LLP Attorneys for Plaintiffs 655 West Broadway Suite 1900 San Diego, California 92101 BY: JASON FORGE, ESQ, jforge@rgrdlaw.com DANIEL PFEFFERBAUM, ESQ. dpfefferbaum@rgrdlaw.com RACHEL JENSEN, ESQ. rjensen@rgrdlaw.com 10 11 · · · 12 · · · 13 · · · 14 O'MELVENY & MYERS, LLP Attorneys for Defendant Century City 1999 Avenue of the Stars, 7th Floor Los Angeles, California 90067 BY: DANIEL PETROCELLI, ESQ. dpetrocelli@omm.com 15 16 17 A L S O P R E S E N T: 18 19 Ryan Asanas, Videographer 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 3 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 173 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 174 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 ·2 I N D E X WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE ·3 · · · DONALD J. TRUMP ·4 ·5 MR. FORGE ·6 ·7 10 E X H I B I T S PLAINTIFFS' PAGE ·8 ·9 Exhibit 466 10 11 Exhibit 467 No Bates numbers, Responses Exhibit 468 No Bates numbers, Limited Liability Company Operating 15 Agreement Exhibit 469 Bates Nos. DT0008666 17 through 76, DJT Operating 18 Agreement 19 Exhibit 470 20 21 No Bates numbers, DJT Exhibit 471 Bates Nos. TU69428 through 29, A Special Message from 23 Donald Trump 25 79 79 79 Operating Agreement 22 24 45 to Interrogatories 14 16 19 Blog 12 13 Bates No. TU66775, Trump Exhibit 472 Bates No. TRUMP 00231466, 82 82 Calendar Entries Page 4 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 174 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 175 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump (Continued) ·2 ·3 E X H I B I T S Exhibit 473 Bates Nos. TU102946 through ·4 50, E-mail dated 10/2/06 ·5 from Mclver to Lenson with ·6 attachments ·7 Exhibit 474 ·8 ·9 94 Transcript Excerpt Exhibit 475 10 11 No Bates numbers, 82 No Bates numbers, Sheet of 108 Photographs Exhibit 476 12 No Bates number, Color 111 Photograph 13 Exhibit 476A Black and White Photograph 113 14 Exhibit 477 118 15 16 Clip Exhibit 478 17 18 Exhibit 479 Exhibit 480 25 No Bates numbers, Video 124 Bates Nos. TU154580 through 125 86, E-mail Chain Exhibit 481 23 24 118 Clip 21 22 No Bates numbers, Video Clip 19 20 No Bates numbers, Video No Bates numbers, 135 Transcript Excerpt Exhibit 482 No Bates numbers, 137 Transcript Excerpt Page 5 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 175 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 176 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 (Continued) ·2 ·3 E X H I B I T S Exhibit 483 ·4 ·5 Exhibit 484 Exhibit 485 No Bates numbers, Foreword 163 No Bates numbers, Book 173 Excerpt Exhibit 486 10 11 147 by Donald J. Trump ·8 ·9 No Bates numbers, Interrogatory Responses ·6 ·7 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Bates Nos. TU154573 through 175 79, E-mail Chain Exhibit 487 12 No Bates numbers, 178 Transcript Excerpt 13 Exhibit 488 Not Admitted 189 14 Exhibit 489 No Bates numbers, 191 15 16 Transcript of Videotape Exhibit 490 17 18 Exhibit 491 No Bates numbers, The Art Exhibit 492 Bates Nos. TU154665 through 702, E-mail dated 4/14/09 22 from Sexton to Harris with 23 attachments 25 214 of the Deal Excerpt 21 24 201 America We Deserve Excerpt 19 20 No Bates numbers, The Exhibit 493 No Bates numbers, 216 222 Transcript Excerpt Page 6 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 176 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 177 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump (Continued) ·2 ·3 E X H I B I T S Exhibit 494 Bates No. TU71487, Madoff ·4 Teaches Lessons in Due ·5 Diligence ·6 Exhibit 495 ·7 ·8 Exhibit 496 No Bates numbers, Exhibit 497 Bates Nos. WEISER001604 through 28, 10/7/05 12 Agreement Exhibit 498 Bates Nos. NYSED000106 14 through 07, 5/27/05 Letter 15 to Trump from Frey 16 Exhibit 499 Bates Nos. TU102909 through 17 922, E-mail dated 2/19/08 18 from Sexton to Graff with 19 attachments 20 Exhibit 500 Bates Nos. TU102409 through 21 415, E-mail dated 10/27/08 22 from Sexton to Graff with 23 attachments 24 25 235 Transcript Excerpt 11 13 231 Transcript Excerpt ·9 10 No Bates numbers, 229 Exhibit 501 No Bates numbers, Audio 258 271 279 317 334 Clip Page 7 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 177 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 178 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump (Continued) ·2 E X H I B I T S ·3 ·4 Exhibit 502 ·5 ·6 No Bates numbers, 335 Transcript Excerpt Exhibit 503 Bates Nos. TU97065 through ·7 85, Fast Track to ·8 Foreclosure Training 347 ·9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 8 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 178 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 179 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We are now on the record. ·3 ·4 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Today's date is December 10, 2015, and the time is 10:05 a.m. ·5 This begins the video-recorded ·6 deposition of Donald J. Trump being taken ·7 in the matter of Cohen versus Trump pending ·8 in the United States District Court, ·9 Southern District of California. 10 2:13-cv-2519-GPC-WVG. 11 Case No. We are at Trump Organization, Trump 12 Tower, located at 725 Fifth Avenue, 13 New York, New York 10022. 14 My name is Ryan Asanas of Aptus 15 Court Reporting located at 600 West 16 Broadway, Suite 300, San Diego, California 17 92101. 18 Will all counsel present please 19 identify yourselves and state whom you 20 represent, starting with the taking 21 attorney. 22 MR. FORGE: 23 Mr. Cohen and the class. 24 MS. JENSEN: 25 Jason Forge on behalf of Rachel Jensen, Robbins Geller Rudman & Dowd, on behalf of Page 9 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 179 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 180 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Mr. Cohen and the class. ·2 MR. PFEFFERBAUM: Dan Pfefferbaum, ·3 Robbins Geller Rudman & Dowd, here on ·4 behalf of plaintiffs in the class. ·5 MR. PETROCELLI: Daniel Petrocelli ·6 on behalf of Mr. Trump and the other ·7 defendants. ·8 ·9 You may begin. Swear the witness, please. 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The court 11 reporter today is Eileen Mulvenna. 12 now swear in or affirm the deponent. 13 She may DONALD J. TRUMP, 14 having been duly sworn by Eileen Mulvenna, 15 a Notary Public of the State of New York, 16 was examined and testified as follows: 17 EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. FORGE: 19 20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Trump. MR. PETROCELLI: Before we begin, I 21 want to designate the transcript 22 confidential pursuant to the protective 23 order in the Makaeff case. 24 some recent press about this case, 25 unfortunately, and we obviously don't want There's been Page 10 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 180 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 181 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 this transcript getting into the hands of ·2 the media. ·3 So if you have any issue with that, ·4 then we can discuss it later; but at this ·5 point, I'm going to designate the entire ·6 transcript as confidential. ·7 MR. FORGE: Let's not waste any ·8 time. ·9 order provides for designating page by page 10 or section by section. 11 it's proper to designate the entire 12 transcript. 13 We certainly have no intention of walking 14 out of here and handing the transcript to 15 anybody. 16 I think you'll see the protective So I don't think We can worry about that later. So we'll take that -- MR. PETROCELLI: Well, I know that 17 members of the press have asked for copies 18 of the transcript, and I trust that it will 19 not get into their hands. 20 In any event, I am designating the 21 entire transcript, but I will talk with you 22 about it and just ask that you respect the 23 designation until and unless we work it out 24 or the court rules on it. 25 MR. FORGE: That's perfectly Page 11 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 181 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 182 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump acceptable. BY MR. FORGE: ·3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Trump. ·4 A. Good morning. ·5 Q. Mr. Trump, I'm not going to waste ·6 time going over the ground rules of depositions ·7 because you've been deposed several times before; ·8 right? ·9 A. Yes. 10 Q. The only thing I'll remind you is 11 that -- the one rule I would hope you respect and 12 enforce on your own is if you don't understand 13 one of my questions, just tell me, ask me to 14 rephrase it and I'll do that. Okay? 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. Mr. Trump, when did you first get 17 18 19 involved with the show The Apprentice? A. Well, I'd say probably about 12 years ago. 20 Q. How did that come about? 21 A. Mark Burnett, who is the producer of 22 the Survivor, asked me about doing a show and 23 came to see me. 24 approved it. 25 Q. And we went to NBC and they I have to apologize. I didn't ever Page 12 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 182 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 183 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 see the show, but my understanding is that ·2 individuals on the show competed to be -- become ·3 your apprentice; is that right? ·4 A. Yes. ·5 Q. Were you involved in the screening ·6 process for determining which individuals would ·7 be candidates on the show? ·8 A. Somewhat. ·9 Q. How so? 10 A. I would see some of the people and I 11 12 would be involved, yes. Q. So could you just give me a broad 13 overview of how the show worked in terms of 14 determining who would move on to the next -- next 15 week or next level on the show. 16 A. You've never seen the show? 17 Q. I honestly haven't. 18 A. You want me to describe the whole 19 20 21 show -Q. 24 25 Just give me a very rough overview -- 22 23 No, not the whole show. MR. PETROCELLI: Just a general overview. BY MR. FORGE: Q. -- on how people would move from one Page 13 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 183 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 184 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump stage -- ·2 THE WITNESS: We started off with ·3 14, 15, 13, 12, 17 people, depending on ·4 whatever. ·5 fired. ·6 sometimes more than that. ·7 And every week somebody would be Sometimes two would be fired, You get down to the end. We would ·8 have a final four. ·9 television and -- the final two would be 10 live television and a winner of The 11 Apprentice would be chosen. 12 BY MR. FORGE: 13 Q. 14 That would be live Did very well. I am familiar with the -- the "you're fired" aspect of the show. 15 The decision as to who would be 16 fired or move on, was that a decision that others 17 made and simply told you this person makes the 18 cut and this person doesn't? 19 A. No. That was -- we would -- I would 20 discuss it with other people, like NBC, and -- 21 but I -- I would ultimately make that decision, 22 but I would discuss it with other people. 23 Q. Again, this is just based on reading 24 about the show. 25 read is wrong, but my understanding is one of the You can correct me if what I've Page 14 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 184 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 185 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 things individuals had to do to get on the show ·2 is fill out an application? ·3 ·4 A. that. ·5 I don't know. I'm not aware of I assume so, yes. Q. When you were making your decisions ·6 as to whether or not to fire someone on the show, ·7 did you review any applications or any written ·8 product about the person? ·9 A. Generally, no. I would look at the 10 applicant. 11 looked at all of them, to be honest with you, 12 generally speaking. 13 I don't think -- I'm not sure that I'd ever look 14 at any written application. 15 résumé. 16 Q. I would see -- I'm not sure that I But I'd look at people. And Perhaps there was a Did you ever base any of your 17 decisions as to whether to fire or not fire 18 someone based on someone's résumé or application? 19 A. Well, I'd have -- when I was looking 20 at a candidate, they would give me -- yeah, 21 they'd give me some kind of a breakdown or 22 résumé. 23 me. 24 25 Yes, the résumé was very important to The résumé was very important. Q. Could you make the decision -- or did you make the decision based just on the Page 15 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 185 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 186 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump résumé? ·2 A. No, but it was an element of ·3 importance. ·4 to school, how much school they had. ·5 would talk about many factors that a résumé would ·6 have. ·7 where they lived, et cetera. ·8 I mean, it would say where they went No, résumé was very important. Q. And it Location, And are you talking about now ·9 considering the résumé to determine who would 10 become a candidate or to determine whether a 11 candidate would move on to the next week in the 12 show? 13 A. Who would become. And I guess the 14 résumé was in my head anyway, so that would also 15 involve moving on. 16 candidate. 17 18 19 Q. Okay. But who would become a So did you ever pick a candidate based strictly on the résumé? A. I was very impressed with some of 20 the résumés. 21 I was very impressed by some of them based on 22 their résumé. 23 top of their class. 24 résumés that were extremely good and very 25 important to me, numerous résumés. You might say almost yes. They went to Harvard. I mean, They were Yeah, there were certain Page 16 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 186 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 187 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Q. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Could you tell, heading into any ·2 particular season of the show, based on the ·3 résumé, okay, this person is going to win? ·4 that predetermined before the show began? ·5 A. No, you can't tell. Was But certainly ·6 if somebody had a good résumé, that's a positive ·7 thing. ·8 ·9 Q. Why couldn't you tell just based on the résumé who was going to win the show? 10 A. 11 see the people. 12 look at their credentials. 13 me was very important. Because you have -- you know, I'd I'd look at the résumé. I'd Their background to 14 Q. I understand -- 15 A. That all -- that all went into my 16 final decision. 17 Q. And what I'm asking, though, is, why 18 wouldn't that be enough? 19 to just say before the season even began, okay, 20 this person we're going -- 21 A. Why wasn't that enough Because it's television, you have to 22 go through a process. 23 through a process. 24 at a résumé and say, oh, this one wins? 25 the way it works. I mean, you have to go What am I going to do, look It's not This is television. Page 17 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 187 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 188 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Q. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump I'm not suggesting that you would ·2 tell the audience on the first episode, I've ·3 already predetermined that this person is -- ·4 A. It sounds like that's what you want ·5 me to say. ·6 But, no, I would -- the résumé was important to ·7 me. ·8 Q. I mean, obviously, you can't do that. Was there anything else that was ·9 important, once the show began, in determining 10 who would move on on a week-to-week basis? 11 12 A. After that it was a competition. Week by week it was just a competition. 13 Q. How did the candidates compete? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. No, how would they compete? 16 competition -- 17 A. A They'd compete -- it depends on what 18 they were doing, but they would compete against 19 each other. 20 21 22 Q. Would you evaluate their performances in the competitions? A. I would evaluate their performance 23 in the competition, yeah. I would -- essentially 24 it would be whoever -- a lot of times I didn't 25 have to evaluate; it would be a statistical Page 18 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 188 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 189 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 thing. ·2 of money or they had to do something else. ·3 there wasn't that much to evaluate. ·4 Like they had to raise a certain amount Q. So What I'm getting at is, was it ·5 genuine competition throughout the season, or did ·6 you know heading into each season who was going ·7 to win? ·8 A. Well, the résumé was very important, ·9 and -- but I -- but once they got onto the show, 10 it was a competition one against the other. 11 MR. FORGE: 12 (Discussion off the record.) 13 MR. PETROCELLI: 14 Are we at 566 or 466? While you're checking, you can show him the document. 15 MR. FORGE: 16 (Discussion off the record.) 17 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 466, Bates No. Sure. 18 TU66775, Trump Blog, marked for 19 identification.) 20 21 22 BY MR. FORGE: Q. a look at -- 23 24 25 If you could, Mr. Trump, please take MR. PETROCELLI: 466. BY MR. FORGE: Q. -- the document that's been marked Page 19 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 189 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 190 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 as Exhibit 466 and let me know if it appears to ·2 be a true and accurate copy of a printout of one ·3 of your blogs. ·4 (Witness peruses the exhibit.) ·5 MR. PETROCELLI: ·6 June 27, 2007. ·7 ·8 THE WITNESS: MR. PETROCELLI: THE WITNESS: Yes, I guess I'll have to get them. 13 14 MR. PETROCELLI: THE WITNESS: 16 my glasses. 17 desk. Just have somebody get They're right on top of my 18 MR. PETROCELLI: 19 THE WITNESS: 20 MR. FORGE: 22 23 Do you want me to have somebody get them? 15 21 Do you need your glasses? 11 12 When dated -- I should have brought my glasses in. ·9 10 The blog is dated I can't leave -- No, let me -- can I -- Sure, we can take a break for a second. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record at 10:16 a.m. 24 (Pause from the record.) 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the Page 20 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 190 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 191 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump record? ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: ·3 MR. FORGE: ·4 And just for the record, Exhibit 466 is a single-page document -- ·5 ·6 Yes, please. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I'm going to -- ·7 MR. FORGE: ·8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: ·9 I'm sorry. Oh, sorry. Going back on the record at 10:16 a.m. 10 MR. FORGE: For the record, 11 Exhibit 466 is a single-page document with 12 Bates No. TU66775. 13 BY MR. FORGE: 14 Q. 15 your glasses. 16 read you what is the fourth paragraph down in 17 this document. 18 Mr. Trump, I know we're waiting for In the interest of time, I'll just It reads, "An example of this was 19 from The Apprentice when my assistants and I 20 interviewed candidates. 21 went on for hours. 22 for over five hours so we could make the most 23 knowledgeable decision possible." Sometimes the process One boardroom meeting lasted 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Is that an accurate description of Page 21 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 191 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 192 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump the process in The Apprentice? ·2 A. Yes. Sometimes it would go very ·3 quickly, but sometimes it lasted for a longer ·4 period of time. ·5 Q. You mentioned here interviewing ·6 candidates. ·7 interviewing people in order to get on the show, ·8 or would you interview candidates after they were ·9 on the show? 10 11 A. Is that in the context of This refers to when the show was going. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. That means during the boardroom, of 14 which you'd only see maybe 15 or 20 minutes on 15 television. 16 sometimes went on for quite a long period of 17 time. 18 19 20 21 Q. But those boardroom meetings What -- what were you trying to get out of those boardroom meetings? A. Just knowledge of the people. Sometimes they went very quickly. 22 Q. Sometimes they took -- 23 A. Sometimes they went quickly and 24 25 sometimes they took a lot longer. Q. What would determine whether a Page 22 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 192 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 193 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 meeting would take a long time, hours, versus ·2 minutes? ·3 A. Well, sometimes you'd have a lot of ·4 good people that were all the same. ·5 hard to break it down. ·6 people that were almost -- they were all good or ·7 all bad. And sometimes you'd have more that were ·8 all bad. You know, you're trying to pick the one ·9 that you're going to fire. 10 Q. It was very Sometimes you'd have Ultimately -- I think you said 11 earlier ultimately the decision as to who became 12 your apprentice was yours? 13 A. Yes, it was mine. I would consult 14 with other people. 15 have assistants. 16 they would have an impact on whatever I decided. 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q. Actually, it was mine -- I I had different people. And Approximately how many assistants helped you in making that decision? A. Well, at a minimum, two. And they would -- they would make recommendations to me. Q. I take it they would share with you their thoughts -- 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. -- on the individual candidates? 25 A. Sure. Page 23 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 193 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 194 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Q. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump And you would consider those thoughts in making your decision? ·3 A. Correct. ·4 Q. What did it mean when someone won ·5 and became your apprentice? ·6 ·7 A. became my apprentice? ·8 Q. ·9 10 What did it mean when somebody Yes. What did that mean for them? Did they actually work for you after that? 11 A. Yes, for one year. 12 think you'd have to ask them. 13 lot. 14 Q. And I'm sorry. It meant -- I I think it meant a I'm sure it did have 15 an impact on their lives. 16 of their interaction with you as your apprentice? 17 A. 18 organization. 19 work with my organization. 20 But what was the level They would work with my A little bit with me, but they'd Q. Did any of them stay beyond the 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. How many? 24 A. I don't know. 25 Q. Approximately how much interaction 21 year? One, maybe. Page 24 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 194 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 195 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump did you have -- let me rephrase that. ·2 With what frequency did you interact ·3 with the apprentices? ·4 quarterly, once somebody became your apprentice? ·5 ·6 ·7 ·8 ·9 10 11 A. Was it a weekly, monthly, I had 14 winners. It was all different. Q. Was it sometimes as frequently as weekly? A. Maybe, but I had all different people. Q. What I'm asking is, were there any 12 who, once they became your apprentice, you saw on 13 a weekly basis for the next year? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Were there any that you saw on a 16 monthly basis for the next year? 17 A. I would see them very rarely. 18 Q. So were there any that you saw on a 19 20 monthly basis for the next year? A. I can't answer that, it was so many 21 years ago. 22 I -- I'd see them. 23 periods. 24 Q. 25 Talking about many years ago, but I wouldn't say for long time So at least off the top of your head, none that you can recall that you saw on a Page 25 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 195 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 196 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump monthly basis after they became your apprentice? ·2 A. No, I wouldn't see them too much, ·4 Q. Do you recall seeing -- ·5 A. They were within the -- I don't know ·3 no. ·6 what this has to do with what we're talking ·7 about, but they were within the organization. ·8 Q. Do you recall seeing any on a ·9 quarterly basis after they became your 10 apprentice? 11 A. 12 many years ago. 13 it. 14 15 16 I don't know. I'd have to go and think about You're talking about many, many years ago. Q. But at least off the top of your head, you can't think of any? A. I wouldn't spend too much time with 17 them, no. 18 time with them. 19 organization. 20 You're talking about Q. Very happy. I wouldn't spend too much They were within the It's an organization. So you didn't actually mentor the 21 apprentice once somebody became your apprentice; 22 right? 23 24 25 A. I would see them. I would mentor. And I mentored them even during the show. Q. I'm sorry. I should be more Page 26 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 196 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 197 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 specific. ·2 ·3 ·4 Once someone became your apprentice, you did not serve as their mentor, did you? A. ·5 ·6 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump I don't know what you mean -MR. PETROCELLI: The question is vague. ·7 THE WITNESS: I don't know what the ·8 definition of mentor is. ·9 depends. 10 share a room with me? 11 office? 12 BY MR. FORGE: 13 Q. 14 15 16 I mean, it Did I live with them? Did they Did they share my No. What's your definition of mentor? MR. PETROCELLI: The question is vague. THE WITNESS: I think it has many 17 definitions. 18 some of the best tips that I've ever 19 received, I was with somebody for minutes. 20 So not -- you don't have to spend a 21 lifetime with somebody to be a mentor. 22 But I've received very good for It depends. I mean, I can -- 23 short, and I've been with other people for 24 long periods of time and I haven't learned 25 anything. Page 27 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 197 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 198 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump BY MR. FORGE: ·2 Q. Do you have any sort of working ·3 definition -- ·4 A. No. ·5 Q. -- of the term "mentor"? ·6 A. No, not really. It's -- it's ·7 different -- it's all different for different ·8 people. ·9 Q. What is it for you, though? 10 MR. PETROCELLI: 11 THE WITNESS: 12 13 Asked and answered. I think I've answered the question. BY MR. FORGE: 14 Q. Was your father your mentor? 15 A. Yeah, he was my mentor. 16 Q. And what did he do to -- in the area 17 of real estate, what did he do to mentor you in 18 the area of real estate? 19 A. Well, I spent time with him and I 20 would -- I would -- he was my father and I spent 21 time with him. 22 Q. 23 24 25 And that's it. I assume he was a great real estate mentor? A. estate. Yeah, it was good -- he knew real He really knew real estate. And so that Page 28 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 198 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 199 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump was a very good thing. Q. What -- I'm trying to get away from ·3 the father/son relationship and just on a more ·4 professional or educational level. ·5 What aspect of that mentor ·6 relationship with your father did you find to be ·7 particularly effective in you learning the real ·8 estate business? ·9 A. Just knowledge. He would -- he was 10 a knowledgable person, and he would tell me what 11 he knew. 12 him because he was my father. 13 He was my father. Q. I spent time with Do you have any understanding as to 14 how many properties your father had bought and 15 sold prior to becoming your mentor in real 16 estate? 17 A. A little bit. 18 Q. Approximately. 19 A. I don't know what this has to do Just a ballpark. 20 with what we're talking about. 21 filibuster? What is this, a 22 Q. No, absolutely not. 23 A. Seems like it to me, what you're 24 25 asking. Q. Go ahead. Question is, do you have any Page 29 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 199 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 200 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 understanding as to how many properties your ·2 father bought and sold prior to mentoring you in ·3 real estate? ·4 A. I have a general understanding, yes. ·5 Q. Can you give me a ballpark of the ·6 ·7 number? A. I can't -- I really don't know. ·8 can't give you that. ·9 It's decades and decades ago. I It's many, many years ago. 10 Q. But it was multiple properties? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. And did he buy and sell properties 13 14 Sure. while mentoring you? A. He didn't mentor. He was my father. 15 It's not -- he didn't mentor. 16 I worked for my father. 17 wasn't a mentor. 18 could call it mentor if you want, but he was my 19 father. 20 worked for him for a period of time. 21 and I went out on my own. 22 23 Q. He was my father. He was my boss. He was my boss. He was my father. He I mean, you He was my boss. I Then I left How about your kids; have you taught your kids the real estate business? 24 A. Yeah, I have. 25 Q. Have you served as a mentor to them? Page 30 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 200 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 201 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump A. I think I served as a father to ·3 Q. And as part of that -- ·4 A. More than a mentor. ·2 them. A mentor is a ·5 much lesser position. ·6 know, I was a father to my children. ·7 ·8 Q. I sent -- I worked -- you Well, have you taught them the real estate business? ·9 A. I've helped them to learn it, yeah. 10 Q. How have you gone about helping them 11 12 learn the real estate business? A. Oh, come on. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 MR. PETROCELLI: Come on, Jason. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump. A. I'm not asking for everything, It's -These are ridiculous questions. MR. PETROCELLI: It's a little bit evasive -THE WITNESS: These are ridiculous questions. MR. PETROCELLI: 23 to ask about his -- 24 THE WITNESS: 25 Give me a break. -- and far afield You want to go through -Page 31 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 201 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 202 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: ·5 ·6 THE WITNESS: BY MR. FORGE: Q. It's not a filibuster. MR. PETROCELLI: ·8 you move on? ·9 to probe that -- 10 I think you should go MR. FORGE: I'm just asking for the broad -THE WITNESS: This is just a filibuster. 16 MR. PETROCELLI: 17 THE WITNESS: 18 19 Well, can back to the court. 14 15 Okay. I don't think you really need THE WITNESS: 12 13 This is just a filibuster for seven hours. ·7 11 -- interactions with his -- ·3 ·4 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump children. Okay. I'm not -- What did I teach my Give me a break. BY MR. FORGE: 20 Q. I'm not asking about -- 21 A. Do you want me to talk to you about 22 it all day? 23 MR. PETROCELLI: 24 Jason, I'm just going to instruct 25 Time out. him not to answer any further on that Page 32 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 202 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 203 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 question. ·2 way beyond the reasonable bounds. ·3 ·4 ·5 So can you just move on? It's BY MR. FORGE: Q. For how long have you worked with your children in the real estate industry? ·6 A. Which one? ·7 Q. I'm sorry? ·8 A. Which one? ·9 Q. You have three older -- three adult 10 children; is that right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Let's start with your daughter, 13 Ivanka. 14 real estate industry? How long have you worked with her in the 15 A. Since she's 21 years old. 16 Q. How long is that? 17 A. Ten, eleven years, I guess, she's 18 19 20 been involved with me with the real estate. Q. And you have a son named Eric; is that right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. For how long have you worked with 23 24 25 him in real estate? A. Probably nine years. Such ridiculous questions. Page 33 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 203 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 204 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 Q. Donald, Jr.? ·2 A. Thirteen, fourteen years. ·3 Q. And you've previously testified that ·4 you don't think anyone would be more of an expert ·5 in real estate than you are? ·6 A. I'm very good. ·7 Q. Now that you're -- you've been I am good. ·8 campaigning for a while, do you feel that your ·9 expertise in real estate has suffered at all? 10 11 12 A. I think I have a natural instinct for real estate. Q. So do you still consider yourself to 13 be as much or a greater real estate expert than 14 anyone else? 15 16 17 18 19 A. Yeah, I think I haven't lost anything. Q. So equal to or greater than anyone else in terms of your real estate expertise? A. Oh, I don't know. It's -- it's a 20 stupid question. 21 professional real estate person. 22 23 24 25 Q. My opinion is that I'm a I'm good at it. Do you -- do you consider yourself able to judge others' real estate expertise? A. More by the deals they've done. More by the deals they've done or whatever. But, Page 34 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 204 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 205 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 you know, I think that -- that's where résumés ·2 are very important. ·3 is actually very important if you're going to ·4 hire somebody. ·5 Q. The résumé of somebody to me So any other criteria that you would ·6 use to judge someone's real estate expertise ·7 other than the deals they've done? ·8 A. ·9 criteria on it. 10 very important in terms of what you're asking 11 now. 12 somebody, you have to look at what they've done. 13 And a résumé can tell you where they were, where 14 they went to school, who they worked for, 15 et cetera. 16 Well, the résumé has a lot of those Somebody's résumé, I mean, is Because, you know, if you don't know Q. Again, though, focusing on how you 17 would determine someone's level of real estate 18 expertise, is there any criteria other than the 19 deals they've done? 20 21 22 A. I just told you the résumé is very important to me. Q. What on the résumé would you use to 23 determine someone's -- to assess someone's 24 expertise in real estate? 25 A. I just told you that. I went Page 35 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 205 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 206 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 through it. ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Q. You gave me some examples of items that are on a résumé. ·4 A. That's right. ·5 Q. You did not connect that up to -- ·6 A. No, I just told you. ·7 Q. -- considering that in ·8 determining -- ·9 A. I just told you. 10 Q. -- that expertise? 11 A. I just told you. 12 Q. So are you saying that you would 13 consider where they went to school? 14 A. That's right. 15 Q. Where they worked. 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. So the deals they've done, where Where they worked. 18 they went to school, where they worked. 19 Anything else? 20 21 A. yeah. Things that are on their résumé, Those -- those are very primary things. 22 Q. 23 résumé." 24 school and where they worked? 25 A. You said, "Things that are on their Referring again to where they went to Give me a résumé. I'll show you. Page 36 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 206 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 207 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Q. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump I'm asking you, what are your criteria that you use to assess someone's -- ·3 A. I told you. ·4 Q. -- expertise in real estate? ·5 A. I told you. ·6 ·7 Things that are on a résumé, like schooling, where they worked -Q. So if it's on a résumé that someone ·8 kayaks, is that something that you would use to ·9 assess their expertise in real estate? 10 11 12 A. What does -- "kayaks," what does that mean? Q. If someone is an adventure kayaker, 13 is that something that you would use to determine 14 their expertise in real estate? 15 16 17 A. I don't know. That's -- probably not much. Q. And that's what I'm -- that's all 18 I'm getting at, Mr. Trump, is different people 19 have different things on their résumés, you'd 20 agree -- 21 A. You're not getting -- 22 Q. -- right? 23 A. You're not getting at anything. 24 25 You're just trying to waste a lot of time. I would say that the résumé -- yeah, Page 37 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 207 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 208 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 the résumé is very important because it -- it ·2 gives you a life history of somebody that, you ·3 know, you don't know and you may hire. ·4 tells you a little bit about their life. ·5 ·6 Q. But you keep speaking just in generalities about a résumé. ·7 ·8 And it What particular aspects of a résumé would you consider -- ·9 A. I've already told you. 10 Q. -- in assessing -- that's what I'm 11 just trying to get at. 12 A. I've already -- 13 Q. You mentioned two things, where they 14 went to school and where they worked. 15 Are there any other criteria that 16 you would assess to determine someone's expertise 17 in real estate? 18 A. Those are the primary things, yes. 19 Q. And the deals they've done? 20 A. Yes. 21 on the résumé. 22 always mentioned on the résumé. That usually is, 23 you know, where they've worked. And then you 24 talk to people about the rest or you hear it or 25 your people tell you what they've done. If it happens to be mentioned If it's -- I don't know that it's Page 38 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 208 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 209 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Q. So without knowing anything about ·2 the deals someone's done, would you be able to ·3 assess someone's expertise in real estate based ·4 strictly on where they went to school and where ·5 they worked? ·6 A. ·7 talking about. ·8 for a professor or for a teacher, I think the ·9 résumé is very important. 10 very important thing. 11 Depends on what position you're Q. I mean, if you're talking about I think a résumé is a My question, though, is, if you 12 didn't know anything about the deals -- the real 13 estate deals someone has done and all you knew is 14 where they went to school and where they worked, 15 would that be enough information for you to 16 determine their expertise in real estate? 17 A. Well, I guess there are other things 18 on the résumé that you look at. 19 a -- I think we had a very good résumé for the 20 school. 21 had a pretty detailed résumé for the school, as 22 an example, for Trump. 23 of the others. 24 mentioned. 25 that would get my imagination. I'd have to see It's been many years now, but I think we But I'd have to see some It could be that something you Kayak, I don't think so, but maybe I don't know. Page 39 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 209 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 210 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Q. What do you mean by you had a pretty decent [sic] résumé for the school? A. I want to see -- I think we had a ·4 good résumé for the school. ·5 their résumés. ·6 for a professor coming in, or a teacher, an ·7 instructor, was to me very important for the ·8 school. ·9 like to see as many as possible. 10 People would submit And it was a very big -- a résumé You know, to me it was important. Q. I'd I believe you're referring in the 11 singular, we had a -- we had a very good résumé 12 for the school. 13 A. No, I think -- 14 Q. What do you mean? 15 A. I think -- I think that -- when I 16 say that, I'm talking about myself. 17 résumés for something like that would be very 18 important. I find that 19 Q. Something like what? 20 A. For the school. 21 Q. What aspect of the school? 22 A. For hiring somebody as a professor, 23 having a good résumé would be very important. 24 an instructor, it would be important. 25 Q. As Do you know any individuals you Page 40 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 210 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 211 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump consider to be real estate experts? ·2 A. Yes. ·3 Q. Approximately how many? ·4 A. I don't know. ·5 Q. More than 20? ·6 A. I don't know. ·7 Q. That's why I'm asking you just to ·8 I don't know. estimate -- ·9 A. Many. 10 Q. "Many" to some people might mean a 11 12 There are many, many, many. hundred; "many" to others might be dozens. A. There are thousands and thousands of 13 people that are qualified real estate people. 14 There are thousands. 15 country. 16 thousands. 17 Q. They're all over the They're all over the world. There are I'm talking about people that you 18 know who you consider to be experts in real 19 estate. 20 A. I know many people. I mean, I can't 21 tell you how many. I guess I could go through my 22 Rolodex and come up with a number, but that 23 number wouldn't even be accurate. 24 many -- many people that are qualified to be -- 25 that are good real estate people. No, I know Page 41 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 211 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 212 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Q. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump How about people with whom you've ·2 worked over the past ten years; approximately how ·3 many? ·4 ·5 A. I work with a lot of people. ·6 ·7 I -- I can't give you a number. Q. Do you consider your kids to be experts in real estate? ·8 A. Yes. ·9 Q. Approximately how many people 10 associated with Trump Organization do you 11 consider to be real estate experts? 12 A. I don't know. I have a lot of 13 people here. 14 people in the organization that are real estate 15 experts, many, many. 16 17 Q. I would say that there are many Again, "many, many," more than a dozen? 18 A. I can't name it. I mean, yeah, more 19 than a dozen, but I can't -- I can't name you how 20 many. 21 Q. And if you had more than a dozen 22 real estate experts with Trump Organization, for 23 at least a decade? 24 25 A. Yes, I guess so. I mean, if you want to waste a lot of time by asking questions Page 42 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 212 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 213 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump like that, yeah. Q. What's wasting time is your ·3 complaints about the questions. ·4 answer them, we'll move on to the next question. ·5 A. If you just I'm giving -- I'm giving you answers ·6 that I hope you enjoy. ·7 people in The Trump Organization. ·8 real estate people in the country. ·9 many real estate people in the world. 10 Q. I have many real estate There are many There are I didn't ask you real estate people. 11 I'm asking you people you consider to be experts 12 in real estate. 13 A. 14 company. 15 Q. So more than a couple dozen? 16 A. You didn't say that. 17 Yeah. Okay. I have many in the You said a dozen the first time. 18 Q. I said more than a dozen -- 19 A. Now you're saying more than a 20 dozen -- 21 Q. 22 23 dozen. Now I'm saying more than a couple That's right, it's a bigger number. A. I don't know what the number is; I 24 really don't. 25 you say more than a couple dozen. You said more than a dozen, now I don't know Page 43 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 213 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 214 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump what the number is. ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Trump, you've ·3 answered the question. You don't need to ·4 explain why you can't answer it further. ·5 The questions are extremely broad and ·6 generalized. ·7 You're doing your best. BY MR. FORGE: ·8 Q. And is that what -- you're saying ·9 you can't answer whether or not you have more 10 than two dozen real estate experts within The 11 Trump Organization? 12 A. I'd have to go through files and 13 check. 14 that work -- 15 I have many -- I have thousands of people Q. Mr. Trump, there's nothing wrong 16 with saying you don't know off the top of your 17 head. 18 That's fine. A. I'm not saying I don't know or I do 19 know. 20 that -- I don't know. 21 I said more than a dozen. 22 I have a lot of people that work for me Q. When you say a dozen, yes, And now I'm saying two dozen. And 23 I'm asking you, off the top of your head, can you 24 answer -- 25 A. That I don't know. I don't know. Page 44 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 214 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 215 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 I'd have to check. ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Q. That's fine. That's fair enough. Nothing to get upset about. ·4 MR. FORGE: ·5 Can we get Tab 17, please. ·6 MR. PETROCELLI: Donald, you want to ·7 give the reporter back that exhibit. ·8 you. ·9 MR. FORGE: 10 Thank Mark this as Exhibit 467. 11 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 467, No Bates 12 numbers, Responses to Interrogatories, 13 marked for identification.) 14 BY MR. FORGE: 15 Q. Mr. Trump, taking a look at 16 Exhibit 467, does that appear to be a true and 17 accurate copy of your responses to plaintiff's 18 first set of interrogatories? 19 20 21 A. I'd have to ask my lawyer. I don't know. MR. PETROCELLI: Why are these -- 22 being new to the case, why are these 23 blacked out? 24 25 MR. FORGE: They're -- some we're not going to be asking about. Page 45 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 215 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 216 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 MR. PETROCELLI: ·2 MR. FORGE: ·3 There are some we're not going to be talking about. ·4 ·5 Excuse me? MR. PETROCELLI: You blacked them out? ·6 MR. FORGE: ·7 MR. PETROCELLI: Yes. Okay. Well, I ·8 would object that you're going to be asking ·9 him questions and you redacted part of 10 the -- in other words, the document wasn't 11 served in this fashion; correct? 12 MR. FORGE: 13 MR. PETROCELLI: 14 15 Correct. Okay. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Other than the redactions, 16 Mr. Trump, does this appear to be a true and 17 accurate copy of your responses to plaintiff's 18 first set of interrogatories? 19 MR. PETROCELLI: You can look at the 20 last page and indicate if that's your 21 signature. 22 23 24 25 THE WITNESS: It's my signature. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Okay. That's not what I'm asking, but I appreciate -Page 46 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 216 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 217 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 A. ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump I don't know. MR. PETROCELLI: I think he ·3 indicated that he didn't know without -- ·4 without regard to consulting with his ·5 attorneys -- ·6 ·7 MR. FORGE: That's not what he said, Dan. ·8 MR. PETROCELLI: ·9 THE WITNESS: 10 MR. PETROCELLI: 11 That is -- That is what I said. I think that's what he said. 12 MR. FORGE: No, he said ask my 13 attorneys. 14 without asking his attorneys. 15 MR. PETROCELLI: 16 essentially what he's saying. 17 have to be hyper literal here. 18 19 He didn't say he didn't know Well, that's You don't BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, without asking anybody 20 else, do you know whether or not this is an 21 accurate copy of your responses to plaintiff's 22 first set of interrogatories, with the exception 23 of the redactions? 24 25 MR. PETROCELLI: We know it's not accurate because you've redacted it. Page 47 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 217 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 218 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. FORGE: I said with the ·2 exception of the redactions. ·3 MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Trump, if you ·4 know, you can say yes; if you don't know, ·5 you can say you don't know. ·6 THE WITNESS: ·7 blacked out. ·8 all blacked out. ·9 10 11 Q. 16 17 What difference does that make? There are words on here that aren't blacked out. Do you recognize those words? A. 14 15 I don't understand why it's BY MR. FORGE: 12 13 So much of it is I never saw that before -MR. PETROCELLI: In 35 years, I've never seen anybody do such a thing. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, do you recognize the 18 words which comprise the majority of this exhibit 19 as being your responses to plaintiff's first set 20 of interrogatories? 21 A. I'd like to see a full deposition 22 [sic], not one that's blacked out. 23 seen this before in my life, where something's 24 blacked out to that extent. 25 MR. PETROCELLI: I've never Do you have an Page 48 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 218 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 219 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump unredacted copy that you can show us? ·2 MR. FORGE: ·3 THE WITNESS: ·4 ·5 ·6 ·7 Why don't you get an unredacted copy? BY MR. FORGE: Q. Because we're dealing with this, Mr. Trump. ·8 ·9 No, we don't. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think you can put a redacted copy in front of him. 10 MR. FORGE: 11 MR. PETROCELLI: Well, we are. Well, I'm going to 12 instruct him not to answer any further 13 questions about this until and unless you 14 produce a full, unredacted copy -- 15 16 BY MR. FORGE: Q. 17 Focusing your attention on -MR. PETROCELLI: I'm instructing him 18 not to answer any further questions about 19 it. 20 21 22 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Interrogatory No. 11, which asks -- 23 24 25 Focusing your attention on MR. PETROCELLI: Is that redacted? BY MR. FORGE: Q. -- "Identify" -Page 49 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 219 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 220 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 MR. FORGE: ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: ·3 ·4 ·5 No. Okay. Let's take a look at it, then. BY MR. FORGE: Q. -- which asks, "Identify all real ·6 estate techniques unique to you, if any, that ·7 Trump University shared with students." ·8 ·9 Do you see that interrogatory? A. Where is it? 10 11 12 MR. PETROCELLI: BY MR. FORGE: Q. It's on page 7. 13 14 It's on page 8. MR. PETROCELLI: Let him take a look and take some time to read the response. 15 You can read the response to 16 yourself. 17 the answer on the next page. 18 19 There's the question and there's Give him a few minutes to read it because it's long. 20 (Witness peruses the exhibit.) 21 MR. PETROCELLI: 22 THE WITNESS: 23 24 25 And my objection -- Am I reading page 8? BY MR. FORGE: Q. page 7. The interrogatory's at the bottom of Page 8 under the heading "Response to Page 50 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 220 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 221 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 Interrogatory No. 11" is what you're free to read ·2 if you need to. ·3 ·4 MR. PETROCELLI: And my continuing objection based on the redactions. ·5 (Witness peruses the exhibit.) ·6 THE WITNESS: ·7 ·8 All right. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Does that appear to be a true and ·9 accurate copy of your Response to Interrogatory 10 No. 11? 11 A. I think so, yes. 12 Q. Now, if you look at line 14 -- 13 14 You see the numbers running along the left margin? 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. -- line 14, the paragraph -- the 17 sentence that begins, "These techniques." 18 19 "These techniques and strategies include," and then there are several -- 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- lines following that. 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. Are there any other techniques and 24 strategies that were unique to you -- that you 25 claim are unique to you that Trump University Page 51 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 221 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 222 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 shared with students, other than what you've ·2 listed here? ·3 A. No, I think that's a pretty good ·4 list. ·5 but I -- I can't think of any now. ·6 There could be. Q. I mean, I -- it could be, The last sentence in this response ·7 says -- begins, "I have been informed that these ·8 techniques and strategies, as well as others, are ·9 reflected in the Trump University materials as 10 well as publications such as Trump 101 and Real 11 Estate 101." 12 13 14 Who informed you that these techniques and strategies -A. Well, either my people that would 15 have dealt with the university that work in my 16 office or perhaps Mr. Sexton. 17 mean, somebody informed me. 18 many years ago, so -- but I would say perhaps 19 somebody that works for me here or somebody that 20 worked over at the university. 21 22 23 24 25 Q. I don't know. I But, you know, it's If you could look at the final page of this exhibit. MR. PETROCELLI: is that? Which page number The verification page? MR. FORGE: That would be the final Page 52 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 222 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 223 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 page of the exhibit. ·2 ·3 ·4 ·5 ·6 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. PETROCELLI: The page entitled -BY MR. FORGE: Q. And, again, you said that's your signature, Mr. Trump? ·7 A. Yes. ·8 Q. And the date is July 6th of this ·9 year; correct? 10 A. Yes, that's right. 11 Q. Okay. So going back to 12 Interrogatory No. 11 where -- your reference to, 13 "I have been informed that these techniques and 14 strategies," that sentence, who informed you? 15 A. 16 17 I just said I don't know. MR. PETROCELLI: Asked and answered. BY MR. FORGE: 18 Q. So you don't know. 19 A. No -- 20 21 22 MR. PETROCELLI: He said he couldn't recall. THE WITNESS: I've been informed, 23 but this stuff was done a long time ago. 24 assume this -- this is what you're talking 25 about in terms of -- I Page 53 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 223 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 224 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump BY MR. FORGE: ·2 Q. ·3 of 2015. ·4 A. No, this was provided to us in July No, but in terms of what my ·5 techniques are and all, the concept was from long ·6 before that. ·7 Q. So did you provide this response ·8 based on your memory from something that ·9 occurred -- 10 A. Probably many years ago. 11 Q. -- long ago? 12 A. Yeah, probably many years ago. 13 Q. And that's based -- 14 A. That's what I was -- that's what I 15 16 17 thought the -- the response was supposed to do. Q. And the basis for it was what others informed you? 18 MR. PETROCELLI: The question is 19 vague and ambiguous and I think misstates 20 the -- the answer. 21 22 THE WITNESS: I think so, yes. BY MR. FORGE: 23 Q. Any other bases? 24 A. No, I think that's it. 25 I mean, people informed me that that's what we did. Page 54 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 224 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 225 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Q. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Do you have any reason to believe it was true, what they informed you? ·3 A. ·4 would be true. ·5 Q. ·6 I would hope -- I would think it But do you have any reason to believe it was true? ·7 A. Oh, I don't know. I mean, that's ·8 what they informed me. ·9 true. 10 stuff when you think of it. 11 I feel strongly about. 12 are mentioned in this paragraph, I feel strongly 13 about them. 14 I assume that it was I mean, it's pretty basic real estate Q. And it's things that The different things that But, again, do you have any basis to 15 believe -- do you have any personal knowledge of 16 the truth of what those people informed you? 17 A. I don't understand your question. 18 Do I have -- do I think it's false maybe would be 19 a better question or -- 20 Q. No, because what I'm getting at 21 is -- you don't know whether it's true or false, 22 is what I'm getting at. 23 informed and -- 24 25 A. know. It's just what you were It's what I was informed. I don't That's what I was informed. Page 55 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 225 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 226 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Q. The next interrogatory, ·2 Interrogatory No. 12, asks, "Identify all of your ·3 real estate-related secrets, if any, that Trump ·4 University shared with students." ·5 MR. PETROCELLI: Did you -- did you ·6 redact any part of the question and answer ·7 to that? ·8 MR. FORGE: ·9 MR. PETROCELLI: No. Because the 10 redactions begins at line 18 on page 9. 11 that the next answer? 12 MR. FORGE: 13 THE WITNESS: 14 15 16 17 talking about? That's right. Where is this you're Same document? BY MR. FORGE: Q. Same document. It picks up right where the last response ended. 18 MR. PETROCELLI: So page 8 -- Read Question 12 19 and the response to Question 12 to 20 yourself. 21 THE WITNESS: 22 MR. PETROCELLI: 23 24 25 Is On page 8. 8 and 9 to yourself, please. BY MR. FORGE: Q. I think you're going to see the Page 56 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 226 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 227 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 response is identical. ·2 it -- ·3 ·4 ·5 ·6 ·7 MR. PETROCELLI: BY MR. FORGE: Q. If you want to confirm that, Mr. Trump -MR. PETROCELLI: 12 13 THE WITNESS: 16 17 Then I have no problem with it. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Okay. 14 15 If you're representing that it's identical, then -- 10 11 Are you representing -- ·8 ·9 And rather than belabor MR. PETROCELLI: -- we'll accept your representation that it's identical. BY MR. FORGE: Q. And, again, in the interest of time, 18 because I'm not filibustering, would you -- would 19 your answers to my questions be the same as to 20 this interrogatory as they were to the last one? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. If you could now turn back to 23 page 6. 24 begins. 25 A. And line 11 is where Interrogatory No. 8 Okay. Page 57 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 227 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 228 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 MR. PETROCELLI: ·2 MR. FORGE: Hold on. I will represent to you ·3 that nothing has been redacted -- none of ·4 the interrogatories that I'm asking about ·5 have any redactions to them. ·6 MR. PETROCELLI: I know, but it's ·7 still unfair because there's a context to ·8 the -- to the various interrogatories and ·9 answers. 10 and I don't think they should have been 11 redacted. And they're an entire document 12 THE WITNESS: 13 MR. PETROCELLI: 14 I don't think -So my objection continues. 15 But let's look at Question No. 11. 16 MR. FORGE: 17 MR. PETROCELLI: 18 No, this is number 8. MR. FORGE: 20 MR. PETROCELLI: MR. FORGE: Okay. Is that the Yes, that's the entire -- 24 25 Page 6. entire answer? 22 23 What page are we on? 19 21 Excuse me. THE WITNESS: Regarding a denial to this? Page 58 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 228 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 229 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump BY MR. FORGE: ·2 Q. Yes, sir. ·3 A. Why would I -- ·4 Q. No, it's not to this, Mr. Trump. ·5 It's your denial set forth in paragraph 64 of ·6 your answer, which is not something that's ·7 redacted. And it lists the allegation there: ·8 "Regarding your denial as set forth ·9 in paragraph 64 of your answer of the allegation 10 that Defendant Donald J. Trump exercised 11 substantial control over the affairs of the Trump 12 University enterprise, identify all individuals 13 who exercised more control" -- 14 15 16 A. Can you read that again, please. Q. Sure. ahead. 17 18 Go "Regarding your denial as set forth in paragraph 64 of your answer" -- 19 A. Where's paragraph 64? 20 Q. That's your answer -- it's not in 21 this document. 22 answer -- 23 24 25 A. It never was. You submitted an I just don't know what paragraph 64 says, though. Q. I was just about to read it to you, Page 59 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 229 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 230 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Mr. Trump. ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. PETROCELLI: of the answer? ·4 MR. FORGE: ·5 THE WITNESS: ·6 ·7 ·8 No. Read it to me. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Let me just go over a few basics with you. ·9 10 Do you have a copy You understand there's a complaint filed in this case; right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You understand that you have 13 answered that complaint; right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. 16 This is an interrogatory that references your answer to the complaint. 17 A. Which is, this or this? 18 Q. Something other than this. 19 A. Because this one is all redacted, is 20 what -- 21 Q. I know, and that's -- 22 A. I've never seen it before. 23 24 25 Okay. I've never seen that before. Q. Well, paragraph 64 of your answer denies the -- this allegation I'm about to read Page 60 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 230 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 231 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 to you. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Okay. So the complaint alleges -- ·2 A. It denies the allegation. ·3 Q. Exactly. ·4 A. Okay. ·5 Q. The allegation is that "Defendant So read the allegation. ·6 Donald J. Trump exercised substantial control ·7 over the affairs of the Trump University ·8 enterprise." ·9 That's the allegation. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. Do you believe that allegation is 12 accurate or inaccurate? 13 A. I don't know what you mean by 14 "substantial control." 15 important -- I wouldn't use the word "company," 16 but it was a very important event. 17 was something that was going to help people. 18 thought it was something where people could 19 learn. 20 relatively small amount of money, they could 21 learn something or be good. 22 It was a very I thought it I They could -- they could -- for a I thought it was something that 23 would be very positive for a lot of people. And 24 by the way, it was. 25 who have written to us and that are going to be We have many, many people Page 61 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 231 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 232 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 witnesses in the case that are saying they -- ·2 they were thrilled by this. ·3 people. ·4 We have many, many So I thought it was a -- I thought ·5 it was a very -- so it was a very important thing ·6 to me, actually, the school. ·7 Q. Mr. Trump, respectfully, you've used ·8 the word "filibuster" a number of times this ·9 morning already -- 10 A. I'm just giving my answer. 11 Q. No, you're not. 12 You're not answering my question. 13 My question is, true or false, 14 "Defendant Donald J. Trump exercised substantial 15 control over the affairs of the Trump University 16 enterprise"? 17 MR. PETROCELLI: I'm going to object 18 to the question on the ground that the 19 question is vague and ambiguous and calls 20 for legal conclusions, as the response to 21 the interrogatory itself indicates. 22 23 24 25 THE WITNESS: How did I answer the question -MR. PETROCELLI: I also want to object to the use of the word "enterprise," Page 62 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 232 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 233 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 as the response to the interrogatory also ·2 indicates. ·3 ·4 Subject to those objections, you may answer. ·5 ·6 THE WITNESS: What is my answer here? ·7 MR. PETROCELLI: It's right here. ·8 Why don't you read the answer to ·9 yourself -- 10 THE WITNESS: 11 answer. 12 BY MR. FORGE: 13 Q. 14 15 Q. out. 18 Q. Jason -- Let's take this step by step. MR. PETROCELLI: 17 20 Mr. Trump, it's not -MR. PETROCELLI: 16 19 Let me read that Time out. Time This will be a lot easier if you answer my questions. MR. PETROCELLI: Time out. Let him 21 read the question and answer and then you 22 can ask the next question. 23 MR. FORGE: The question -- 24 MR. PETROCELLI: 25 MR. FORGE: I know, but -- Dan, I'm not posing the Page 63 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 233 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 234 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump same question as the interrogatory. ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: It doesn't matter. ·3 You put the document in front of him. ·4 You're asking him -- ·5 ·6 MR. FORGE: document in front of him doesn't mean -- ·7 ·8 MR. PETROCELLI: MR. FORGE: I already let him read it. 11 12 MR. PETROCELLI: MR. FORGE: 14 MR. PETROCELLI: 15 MR. FORGE: 16 MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Dan, just -- MR. FORGE: all. MR. PETROCELLI: 21 MR. FORGE: 25 Well, don't argue. I'm asking very direct questions. 23 24 You're just wasting I'm not wasting time at 20 22 So knock it off. time. 18 19 He has not read the answer. 13 17 He's going to read it, so stop it. ·9 10 Just because I put the MR. PETROCELLI: Keep your shirt on; okay? MR. FORGE: Dan, you're the only one Page 64 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 234 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 235 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 getting exercised [sic] here. ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: ·3 Have you finished reading the ·4 answer? Keep your shirt on. Okay. ·5 Ask your next question, please. ·6 MR. FORGE: ·7 question. ·8 ·9 10 11 No, I'll ask the same MR. PETROCELLI: Repeat the question, please. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, true or false, did you 12 or -- let me ask it this way: 13 not exercise substantial control over the affairs 14 of the Trump University enterprise? 15 16 MR. PETROCELLI: Did you or did you Before you answer the question -- 17 MR. FORGE: 18 MR. PETROCELLI: Your objections are --- I want the 19 record to reflect all of my previous 20 objections -- 21 MR. FORGE: 22 MR. PETROCELLI: 23 And it will. have to restate them. 24 You can answer. 25 THE WITNESS: -- so that I don't Okay. Thank you. I don't know what the Page 65 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 235 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 236 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 word "substantial" is, but I was certainly ·2 involved with it. ·3 thing to me. ·4 ·5 It was a very important BY MR. FORGE: Q. All right. Now, this ·6 interrogatory -- now that we're back to the ·7 interrogatory, this interrogatory references the ·8 fact that you denied -- in your answer to the ·9 complaint, you denied that allegation. 10 A. 11 12 13 14 I know, but you didn't -MR. PETROCELLI: Let him ask his question. BY MR. FORGE: Q. And what this interrogatory asks is 15 that -- regarding your denial as to the 16 allegation that you exercised substantial control 17 over the affairs of the Trump University 18 enterprise, it asked you to identify all 19 individuals who exercised more control -- 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. -- over the affairs of the Trump 22 University enterprise. 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. Exactly. 25 Is that the names here? MR. PETROCELLI: Now what is your Page 66 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 236 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 237 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 ·4 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump question? BY MR. FORGE: Q. So what I'm asking you, Mr. Trump -- you've had a chance to read this response; right? ·5 A. Yes. ·6 Q. Is the response accurate? ·7 A. Well, I think these people were ·8 certainly involved with the university. ·9 were involved, you know, quite a bit with the 10 university. 11 this list, yes. 12 Q. They Michael Sexton, different people on Well, no. What you say in here is, 13 after making your objections, "Based upon 14 information and belief, various individuals who 15 took part in running the day-to-day operations of 16 Trump University exercised more control" -- 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. -- "over the affairs of Trump 19 20 University than defendant did." A. I would say -- when you say 21 day-to-day operations, yeah, they were -- they 22 were involved. 23 Q. 24 25 Yes. No. What you say here is "exercised more control over the affairs of Trump University" -Page 67 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 237 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 238 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 A. You said day-to-day before. ·2 Q. Mr. Trump, this is your -- ·3 A. No, I know. But you read me the ·4 word "day-to-day." ·5 second time -- ·6 Q. No, because the "day-to-day" -- ·7 A. In running the day-to-day operation, Now you're not reading it the ·8 yeah. ·9 they did have a lot of control. 10 These people were very much involved and Q. Mr. Trump, your response says, 11 "Based upon information and belief, various 12 individuals who took part in running the 13 day-to-day operations of Trump University 14 exercised more control over the affairs of Trump 15 University than defendant did." 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. Okay. "I have been informed that 18 these individuals include, but are not limited 19 to: 20 Matejek; Paul Quintal; Joseph Katz; Michael 21 Bloom; April Neumann; Brad Schneider; John 22 Mahoney, Jr.; and Mark Covais." Michael Sexton; David Highbloom; Steven 23 A. Right. 24 Q. Do you stand by that response? 25 A. I don't know those people -- a lot Page 68 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 238 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 239 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 of those people, but they were very much involved ·2 in the operation of the school, yes. ·3 have had a lot of control over the school, yes. ·4 Q. They would You say in here again, "I have been ·5 informed that these individual include." ·6 Who informed you that these ·7 individuals -- ·8 A. ·9 10 11 I think it was Mr. Garten and also maybe Mr. Sexton. Q. What did Mr. Garten inform -MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Garten is a 12 lawyer, so I'm going to object and instruct 13 him not to answer. 14 interrogatories are propounded based on 15 assistance of counsel and others -- And as you know, 16 MR. FORGE: 17 MR. PETROCELLI: 18 MR. FORGE: 19 If he's invoking -- -- what he's been informed by others -- 20 MR. PETROCELLI: 21 MR. FORGE: 22 23 24 25 Excuse me -- Excuse me -- -- I'm asking the question. MR. PETROCELLI: -- the responses to interrogatories. MR. FORGE: The question stands. Page 69 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 239 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 240 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Are you instructing him not to answer? ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: I am, on the basis ·3 of the attorney-client privilege with ·4 respect to his communications with Alan ·5 Garten. ·6 BY MR. FORGE: ·7 Q. So who else informed you that these ·8 individuals listed in this Response to ·9 Interrogatory No. 8 -- 10 A. I don't remember -- 11 Q. -- exercised more control over the 12 affairs of Trump University than you did? 13 14 A. I don't remember, but it may have been Mr. Sexton. 15 Q. Anyone else? 16 A. No, I don't think so. 17 Q. Did Alan Garten work for Trump 18 University on a day-to-day basis, to your 19 knowledge? 20 21 A. No, he didn't. Not in day-to-day. He was involved with it, but not in a day-to-day. 22 Q. To what extent was he involved with 24 A. Legal, attorney. 25 Q. To what extent was he involved as an 23 it? Page 70 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 240 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 241 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 attorney? ·2 ·3 A. Oh, I think just -- just in the form of legal documents, what was going on. ·4 ·5 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Q. So he wasn't involved in the day-to-day operations? ·6 A. No, he wasn't. ·7 Q. He wasn't involved in the actual ·8 instruction of students? ·9 A. No, he wasn't. 10 Q. He wasn't involved in reviewing the 11 curriculum for students? 12 13 14 A. I don't think so. You have to ask Q. Now, you list on here "these him. 15 individuals include, but are not limited to" all 16 these names. 17 Is there anyone else who you did not 18 list in this Response to Interrogatory No. 8 who 19 you believe exercised more control over Trump 20 University than you did? 21 A. Not that I know of. 22 Q. And were you informed of this list 23 of people in the context of responding to this 24 interrogatory? 25 A. I believe so, yes. It's been a Page 71 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 241 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 242 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 while ago, but I think so. Q. So that would have been sometime around July of this year? ·4 ·5 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump A. Yeah -- I mean, I think so, but -- I'd have to check, but I think so. ·6 Q. So do you believe that David ·7 Highbloom exercised more control over the affairs ·8 of Trump University than you did? ·9 10 A. Well, that's what I was instructed. That's what I was told. 11 Q. But -- 12 A. I don't know these people. 13 know some of these people. 14 15 I don't Q. Do you have any basis to believe or disbelieve that information? 16 A. Well, I believe Mr. Sexton and -- 17 Mr. Sexton and whoever else he was working with, 18 I guess, submitted these names. 19 20 21 Q. value? A. 22 23 Yes. MR. PETROCELLI: The question is vague and ambiguous and argumentative. 24 25 And so you just took that at face THE WITNESS: people. Well, I believe I mean he -- I believe Mr. Sexton, Page 72 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 242 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 243 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 if he was the one who submitted names. ·2 Because I don't know everybody on this ·3 list. ·4 ·5 BY MR. FORGE: Q. What I'm getting at is, you have no ·6 personal knowledge from which you can draw to ·7 determine whether or not any particular name on ·8 this list is accurate or not accurate? ·9 10 11 A. This was information that was given to me. Q. Do you have any idea how David 12 Highbloom exercised more control over the affairs 13 of Trump University than you did? 14 A. No, I don't. 15 Q. Do you have any idea how Mark Covais 16 exercised more control over the affairs of Trump 17 University than you did? 18 A. No. 19 Q. I'm not going to waste your time 20 with all these different people. 21 any idea how any of them exercised more control 22 than you did, do you? 23 24 MR. PETROCELLI: Sexton? You don't have Are you excluding He said he knew Sexton -- 25 Page 73 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 243 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 244 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 BY MR. FORGE: ·2 ·3 Q. Do you want to exclude Sexton from A. Well, Sexton, you know, ran it. that? ·4 ·5 Q. So other than Michael Sexton, do you have any idea how any of these people -- ·8 A. I met some of these people, but I ·9 don't know. 10 that question. 11 Q. 12 No, I wouldn't be able to answer You have no idea what they did for Trump University? 13 14 He was the -- he was the top person. ·6 ·7 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump A. I knew at the time what they did, but it's been a long time ago. 15 Q. You knew at some point in time -- 16 A. I knew what some of them did, but 17 it's been -- it's been many years. 18 Q. Who -- who did you know at any time? 19 A. I'd have to really look at the list. 20 I don't -- I recognize names, but I don't -- I 21 don't know at this point. 22 years. 23 previous testimony. 24 25 It's been so many I'd have to -- maybe you can check my Q. What names do you recognize on this list? Page 74 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 244 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 245 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 A. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump I sort of recognize most of the ·2 names, but I can't be totally familiar as to what ·3 they were doing because it's been so long. ·4 Q. Are there any names on this list who ·5 are people you met, other than obviously Michael ·6 Sexton? ·7 A. I don't know. I'd have to get that ·8 information for you. ·9 years ago, I guess I could find out, but I'd have 10 to get that information for you. 11 Q. If I met somebody many So at least looking at this list of 12 names, you can't -- other than Michael Sexton, 13 you don't know whether you've met any of these 14 individuals? 15 A. Well, I recognize names, but I 16 don't -- I don't remember because it's been so 17 many years. 18 Q. So as you sit here right now, you 19 cannot say whether or not you've met anyone on 20 this list other than Michael Sexton? 21 A. I told you -- I think I said it -- 22 how many times do you want me to say it? 23 recognize names. 24 not I met them. 25 Q. I I'd have to find out whether or I just don't know. Do you have any idea whether any of Page 75 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 245 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 246 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 these individuals have any experience -- had, ·2 prior to working for Trump University, any ·3 experience as educators? ·4 A. ·5 have to check. ·6 have to check. ·7 Q. I'd have to check that. I would It's been many, many years. I'd Do you have any idea whether any of ·8 these people on this list have any experience in ·9 buying and selling real estate for profit? 10 A. 11 résumés. 12 Q. I'd have to go back to their I'd have to check it. Do you consider any of the names on 13 this list -- these individuals to be experts in 14 real estate? 15 A. I would have to go back -- again, 16 it's been many, many years, and I would have to 17 go back and check. 18 résumés, which I've done in the past, and I would 19 have to inform me. 20 21 22 Q. I would have to check their But it's been many years. So you believe you've seen the résumés of each of these people? A. I've seen many résumés. I mean, 23 I -- it was important to me. I've seen many 24 résumés of people that worked at Trump 25 University. Page 76 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 246 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 247 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Q. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump How would you know if you've seen a ·2 résumé of somebody that worked at Trump ·3 University? ·4 A. Because they were sent when they ·5 were hired. ·6 most part, I saw a lot of them. ·7 I don't know how many, but I saw résumés. ·8 résumés were important to me. ·9 10 Q. 13 14 I think for the I don't know -And So you said when they were hired, the résumé would be sent to you? 11 12 I would always ask. A. Oftentimes, yes. And maybe all the Q. So after someone was hired, they time. would send a résumé to you? 15 A. No, I think before in many cases. 16 Q. How would you know if a résumé you 17 18 received -- if that person wound up being hired? A. I remember -- again, it's so many 19 years ago. 20 in a while, I would have a com- -- I wouldn't 21 like a résumé. 22 secretary or somebody call up, say, I don't 23 really like this résumé. 24 25 I would look at résumés. Every once And I'd usually call in or have a But for the most part, I would look at résumés. They hired good people. I mean, I'm Page 77 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 247 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 248 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 sure they -- perhaps a couple maybe weren't as ·2 good as others, but they hired good people. ·3 very important to me to hire good people. ·4 Q. ·5 It's If you can focus on my question. How would you know if someone whose ·6 résumé you reviewed wound up being hired or not ·7 by Trump University? ·8 A. Again, it's been so many years. ·9 Perhaps you could check my prior testimony. 10 I would see résumés. 11 they were hired, I don't know. 12 ran a big operation. 13 can't answer that question. 14 Q. But And as to whether or not I just -- they I don't know. I really Other than Mr. Sexton, do you have 15 any idea what positions any of these people held 16 with Trump University? 17 A. Been too many years. 18 Q. You don't know what their titles 20 A. No, it's too many years. 21 Q. So you don't know what the 19 22 23 were? responsibilities were? A. No, it's too long. 24 (Discussion off the record.) 25 MR. FORGE: Eileen, if you could Page 78 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 248 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 249 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump mark these 468, 469 and 470. ·2 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 468, No Bates ·3 numbers, Limited Liability Company ·4 Operating Agreement, marked for ·5 identification.) ·6 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 469, Bates Nos. ·7 DT0008666 through 76, DJT Operating ·8 Agreement, marked for identification.) ·9 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 470, No Bates 10 numbers, DJT Operating Agreement, marked 11 for identification.) 12 13 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, you have in front of you 14 three documents that have been marked as 15 Exhibits 468, 469 and 470. 16 Taking them in numerical order, does 17 Exhibit 468 appear to be a true and accurate copy 18 of the limited liability company operating 19 agreement of Trump University LLC? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Does Exhibit 469 appear to be a true 22 and accurate copy of the operating agreement of 23 Trump University Member LLC? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And does Exhibit 470 appear to be a Page 79 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 249 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 250 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 true and accurate copy of the operating agreement ·2 of DJT University Managing Member LLC? ·3 A. Yes. ·4 Q. If you could, please, look at the ·5 signature pages of each of these documents and ·6 just confirm that the signatures above "Donald J. ·7 Trump" on each document are, in fact, your ·8 signatures. ·9 A. Confirmed. 10 Q. Mr. Trump, if you look at the final 11 page of Exhibit 468, which is Schedule A, do you 12 see that the membership interest for DJT 13 University Managing Member LLC is one-tenth of a 14 percent and the membership interest of DJT 15 University Member LLC is 91.9 percent? 16 Do you see that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. So was it -- did you understand that 19 entities that you controlled held the 92 percent 20 ownership interest in Trump University LLC? 21 A. I believe so, yes. 22 Q. And the entity that you controlled, 23 DJT University Managing Member, was the only 24 manager of Trump University LLC; correct? 25 A. DJT managing -Page 80 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 250 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 251 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Q. MR. PETROCELLI: ·7 The question is vague. ·5 ·6 You might want to look back on the first page. ·3 ·4 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump THE WITNESS: I believe so, yes. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Just out of curiosity, why did you ·8 hold your ownership interest in Trump University ·9 LLC through two different entities? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. You don't know why? 12 A. No. 13 14 15 The lawyers do that. It's -- the lawyers set it up that way. MR. FORGE: If you could take out 5, 6 and 7. 16 (Discussion off the record.) 17 MR. PETROCELLI: 18 with these, Jason? 19 MR. FORGE: 20 MR. PETROCELLI: 21 22 23 24 25 Are you through to the reporter. MR. FORGE: Yes. You can give them Thank you. Eileen, if you could mark these 471, 472 and 473, please. MR. PETROCELLI: So for the record, 471 is the one bearing Control No. TU69428. Page 81 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 251 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 252 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 472 is TRUMP 0231466. ·2 MR. FORGE: And 473 is TU102946. ·3 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 471, Bates Nos. ·4 TU69428 through 29, A Special Message from ·5 Donald Trump, marked for identification.) ·6 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 472, Bates No. ·7 TRUMP 00231466, Calendar Entries, marked ·8 for identification.) ·9 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 473, Bates Nos. 10 TU102946 through 50, E-mail dated 10/2/06 11 from Mclver to Lenson with attachments, 12 marked for identification.) 13 14 BY MR. FORGE: Q. 15 We'll start with Exhibit 471. Does that appear to be a true and 16 accurate copy of a web page printout with a 17 banner across the top that reads, "A Special 18 Message from Donald Trump"? 19 A. I believe so, yes. 20 Q. If you look at the second page, Item 21 No. 9. 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. And these are -- this is a list of 24 25 pointers you're giving people; correct? A. Yes. Page 82 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 252 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 253 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Q. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump The ninth point you list on here is "Pay attention to details"; right? ·3 A. Sure. ·4 Q. And you believe in that? ·5 A. I do. ·6 Q. It's important to pay attention to ·7 details? ·8 A. Yes. It's one of the elements. I ·9 mean, I know a lot of people that don't pay 10 attention to details and that sometimes works out 11 very well, too. 12 Q. 13 14 But there's -- But you're in the pay-attention-to-detail kind of world? A. I am. Depends on what. I've done 15 some deals where I didn't pay as much attention 16 to details and they turned out to be some of my 17 best, but I generally like to know the details. 18 19 Q. If you could please turn to Exhibit 473. 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. That is -- it should look like a 22 copy of an e-mail. 23 looking at the same document? Does it? 24 MR. PETROCELLI: 25 MR. FORGE: Yes. Are you and I This one? It's Bates Page 83 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 253 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 254 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump No. TU102946. BY MR. FORGE: ·3 Q. Do you see that? ·4 A. Yes. ·5 Q. If you would look at the second ·6 page, so the page being TU102947. ·7 A. Okay. ·8 Q. It's -- ·9 A. Second page, yeah. 10 "Building your reputation"? 11 Q. Yes, "by Donald J. Trump." 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. If you could look down at the fourth 14 paragraph. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. And do you see where you wrote, "I 17 remember when someone mentioned how impressed 18 they were that I was so interested in trees when 19 I was building a golf course. 20 surprised that they were impressed. 21 made sense. 22 yourself. 23 secondhand. 24 the source yourself. 25 to a great brand, a great reputation or both." I remember being To me it You have to know the details Secondhand information will always be Don't be a secondhand person. Go to That's a start on the road Page 84 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 254 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 255 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Do you believe those sentiments you expressed in there, Mr. Trump? A. Yes. I mean, not everybody, as I ·4 told you, is into the world of details. ·5 them, generally speaking. ·6 without being very detail-oriented and they've ·7 been good, but I like details. ·8 ·9 10 Q. I like I've done deals Why do you think it's important to pay attention to details? A. Well, I think it's -- I think it's a 11 good thing if you can. If you have the time, you 12 should do the details. But, again, I've done 13 deals where I wasn't able to go into the great 14 details and they've worked out very well. 15 concept of the deal is the most important thing. 16 17 Q. As a general rule, why do you think it's important to know the details? 18 19 The MR. PETROCELLI: Asked and answered. BY MR. FORGE: 20 Q. You can answer. 21 A. What? 22 Q. You can answer. 23 A. You want me to answer it again? 24 25 THE WITNESS: Do I answer it again? It's up to you. Page 85 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 255 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 256 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. PETROCELLI: You can answer it again. ·3 THE WITNESS: It's always nice to ·4 know the details if you have the chance to ·5 do them and if you have -- if you have the ·6 time for them. ·7 do -- you're in love with some deal, some ·8 transaction and you don't -- you don't go ·9 into the details as much because of time -- 10 timing. 11 if you can do as many details as possible, 12 it's always an advantage. 13 Sometimes you may want to You need speed. But if you can -- BY MR. FORGE: 14 Q. Why? 15 A. It probably gives you a little bit 16 of a leg up. 17 Q. Why? 18 A. I can't tell you why. 19 20 21 22 I mean, little more knowledge. Q. Because what you don't know could hurt you? A. Again, I've done deals without a lot 23 of detail and they've worked out very well. I 24 prefer having the detail and the knowledge, the 25 little additional knowledge, if possible. But Page 86 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 256 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 257 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 I've done them both ways. ·2 ·3 Q. I understand that would be your general preference. ·4 ·5 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump What I'm trying to get at, though, is, why? ·6 MR. PETROCELLI: ·7 vague and ambiguous. ·8 THE WITNESS: ·9 the question. 10 answered it. 11 BY MR. FORGE: 12 Q. 13 The question is I think I've answered Honestly, I think I've All you've said in response to the -- 14 A. A little additional information by 15 going into the details. So you have a little 16 additional information. I think that's a 17 positive thing. 18 you can't do it. 19 20 Q. If you can do it. And sometimes That additional information can be advantageous? 21 A. It can be. But I've done them both 22 ways. 23 because of time constraints and other things, 24 where I was not able to be detail-oriented and 25 they worked out very well also. I've done deals where I was not able to -- Page 87 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 257 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 258 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Q. If you could please take a look at Exhibit 472. ·3 A. Okay. ·4 Q. Does this appear to be a true and ·5 accurate copy of a page of your -- I'll refer to ·6 it as kind of a diary of your activities? ·7 ·8 ·9 A. though. I don't know. It looks like it, Which sentence are you referring to? Q. We're going to refer to the bottom 10 of it, but just first, as a preliminary matter, I 11 just want to confirm this appears to be a true 12 and accurate copy of -- 13 A. It looks like. 14 Q. -- page 1 of your entries. 15 So now, if you could, please, look 16 at the last entry on this page where you're 17 talking about the bad news concerning the 18 elevators. 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. Or escalators. 21 I'm sorry. Is this accurate? Are you actually 22 that detail-oriented that you would personally 23 follow up on escalators being broken? 24 25 A. Yes, I would -MR. PETROCELLI: I object to the Page 88 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 258 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 259 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 preamble of your question; it's ·2 argumentative. ·3 ·4 ·5 ·6 ·7 ·8 BY MR. FORGE: Q. And is that -- is that accurate? Did you actually follow up on these escalators? A. When was this? How many years ago was this? Q. ·9 It's a while back. MR. PETROCELLI: 10 indicated. 11 doc attachment. I don't know. There's no date At the top it says, "Trump"-- 12 Do you know what that is, Jason? 13 MR. FORGE: 14 15 16 It's -- Mr. Trump produced it to us. BY MR. FORGE: Q. I think basically -- at least as it 17 was described in the documents you produced, just 18 for a certain number of days, you kind of 19 narrated -- kept a diary of your activities. 20 A. Yes, I mean -- 21 Q. I'm not -- Mr. Trump, I'm not 22 pressing you on whether these escalators were 23 fixed or not. 24 A. 25 they work now. What I'm trying to get at is -They were fixed because they work -- Page 89 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 259 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 260 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 MR. PETROCELLI: I'm more interested ·2 in your mother's recipe, to be honest with ·3 you. ·4 BY MR. FORGE: ·5 Q. That's the kind of thing, though, ·6 that you -- that's the kind of detail that we ·7 were talking about earlier that you pay attention ·8 to? ·9 A. 10 ways I do it. 11 Q. Yes, I like detail, if I can. 12 Both Do you feel that your attention to details has kept your memory sharp? 13 A. No, my memory's good. 14 Q. You've described it as being better 15 16 17 18 19 than good; right? A. Yes, it's good. I have a good memory. Q. Well, you've described it as being one of the all-time great memories; right? 20 A. I have a good memory. 21 Q. Well -- 22 23 24 25 MR. PETROCELLI: Do you remember, is that your question? BY MR. FORGE: Q. Do you remember saying that you have Page 90 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 260 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 261 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump one of the all-time great memories? ·2 A. Yes, I said that. ·3 Q. And do you believe that's true? ·4 Do you have one of the all-time great memories? ·5 A. I have a very good memory, yes. ·6 Q. Do you believe you have one of the ·7 best memories in the world? ·8 ·9 A. Q. You've stated, though, that you have one of the best memories in the world? 12 13 I can't tell for other people, but I have a good memory. 10 11 That I can't tell you. A. I don't know. Did I use that expression? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Where? 16 Q. I can play a video of you reporting A. Did I say I have a great memory or 17 18 19 20 21 22 Could I see it? it. one of the best in the world? Q. "One of the best in the world" is what the reporter quoted you as saying. A. I don't remember saying that. As 23 good as my memory is, I don't remember that, but 24 I have a good memory. 25 Q. So you don't remember saying that Page 91 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 261 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 262 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 you have one of the best memories in the world? ·2 ·3 A. I don't remember that. I remember you telling me, but I don't know that I said it. ·4 ·5 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Q. Do you recall saying that you have one of the all-time great memories? ·6 A. I think that was the expression I ·8 Q. And you stand behind it? ·9 A. Yes, I have a great memory. ·7 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 used. I have a very good memory. Q. Now, Trump University was not your idea; right? A. It was an idea that was broached to me and I thought it was a good idea. Q. It was brought to you by Michael Sexton; correct? 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. Mr. Sexton had a partner at the time 19 he brought the idea to you; isn't that right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you remember that man's name? 22 A. John Spitalny. 23 Q. Do you remember a name Richard 24 25 Kaskel? A. I think he's -- somehow he was Page 92 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 262 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 263 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 involved with Spitalny. ·2 was involved with Jon Spitalny. ·3 partners. ·4 ·5 Q. I don't know that -- he They were Did you make the decision to cut Mr. Kaskel out of the Trump University deal? ·6 A. No, I think Jon Spitalny did. They ·7 were -- they were really somehow related or ·8 friends or something, but he -- that was a Jon ·9 Spitalny deal. 10 Q. If I'm understanding you correctly, 11 you did not make the decision to cut Mr. Kaskel 12 out of the deal? 13 A. No. Again, I didn't view him -- I 14 don't know -- you're talking about many, many 15 years ago, but Jon Spitalny brought him in, and I 16 think ultimately it was Jon Spitalny that got him 17 out. 18 19 Q. I'd like to play for you a clip. And we can show you the actual excerpt. 20 MR. FORGE: 21 MR. PETROCELLI: 22 MR. FORGE: 23 MR. PETROCELLI: 24 25 It's 8.2, guys. Before you show -- Sure. -- let us see the excerpt -MR. FORGE: Yeah. Page 93 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 263 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 264 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: it. ·3 ·4 ·5 ·6 -- so we can read MR. FORGE: We can mark this as 474. And I don't care about playing it. BY MR. FORGE: Q. If reading is good enough, ·7 Mr. Trump, that's fine. ·8 theater effects if reading is fine. ·9 10 We don't need the MR. PETROCELLI: Are you going to mark the transcript? 11 MR. FORGE: 12 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 474, No Bates Yes, as 474. 13 numbers, Transcript Excerpt, marked for 14 identification.) 15 16 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, Exhibit 474 is an excerpt 17 from the deposition of Michael Sexton. 18 direct your attention to lines 6 through 13 of 19 page 35. 20 just a couple pages. The excerpt -- the exhibit itself is 21 22 23 And I'll Do you see -A. knowledge. He said to the best of his But what is it referring to? 24 Q. Line 6 -- 25 A. But what are they referring to? Who Page 94 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 264 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 265 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 made what decision? ·2 make that decision? ·3 Q. ·4 I don't understand. Well, see -"QUESTION: ·5 Did Mr. Kaskel get his 1 percent? ·6 "ANSWER" -- ·7 A. I don't know. ·8 Q. Hold on, Mr. Trump. ·9 10 Who did I -- MR. PETROCELLI: Let him read it. BY MR. FORGE: 11 Q. 12 This is Mr. Sexton's -MR. PETROCELLI: Just for the 13 record, you're reading Sexton's deposition 14 in this case taken on May 15, 2015 -- 15 THE WITNESS: 16 But I don't see that. Oh, am I a page too far? 17 MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. So -- 18 BY MR. FORGE: 19 Q. We're on page 35, Mr. Trump. 20 A. Go ahead. 21 Q. I wanted to include just some pages 22 just so you know I'm not pulling a fast 23 one here -- 24 25 A. I'm sure you wouldn't pull a fast one. Page 95 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 265 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 266 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 MR. PETROCELLI: ·2 redacted here; right? ·3 line? ·4 MR. FORGE: ·5 MR. PETROCELLI: ·6 ·7 There's nothing So page 35. What Line 6. Okay. Are you going to read it? BY MR. FORGE: ·8 Q. Do you see the question: ·9 "QUESTION: 10 "Did Mr. Kaskel get his 1 percent? 11 "ANSWER: 12 "QUESTION: 13 "ANSWER: 14 "QUESTION: 15 I see. He did not. Do you know why? Mr. Trump didn't like him. Did Mr. Trump ever express to you why he didn't like him? 16 "ANSWER: 17 Does that change your testimony at 18 all as far as why Mr. Kaskel was cut out of his 19 deal? 20 A. No. No." I didn't know Mr. Kaskel. 21 didn't like him or dislike him. 22 much about him. 23 something. 24 25 I I didn't know I guess -- I guess I met him or This was many, many years ago. But he was somehow related to Jon Spitalny, and I think they had a deal among Page 96 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 266 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 267 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 themselves for this. I think. Again, you'd have ·2 to ask my lawyers because they have all the ·3 documents. ·4 Q. And that's why I'm focusing on -- ·5 A. This is just so long ago. ·6 Q. -- just you, Donald Trump -- ·7 A. I didn't like or dislike Mr. Kaskel. ·8 I think the name is pronounced Kaskel. ·9 think that somehow he was related to Jon Spitalny 10 and they were involved in it together. 11 Q. But I So the statement that Mr. Kaskel did 12 not get his 1 percent because you didn't like 13 him, because "Mr. Trump didn't like him," that's 14 not accurate? 15 A. I don't know. I'm not sure that 16 he's making it very strongly. 17 him that much, frankly, Mr. Kaskel. 18 really Mr. Spitalny made the decision not to 19 bring him in. 20 Q. I don't remember And I think All I'm asking you is whether or not 21 it's accurate to say that the reason Mr. Kaskel 22 did not get his 1 percent -- is it accurate or -- 23 24 25 A. I don't remember. It's so long ago. I mean -MR. PETROCELLI: You've answered the Page 97 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 267 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 268 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump question. ·2 ·3 ·4 ·5 THE WITNESS: When you say -- yes. BY MR. FORGE: Q. So it might be accurate. The reason might have been because you didn't like him? ·6 MR. PETROCELLI: ·7 THE WITNESS: Asked and answered. It's so long ago that ·8 I don't have a lot of recollection of ·9 liking him or not liking him. 10 11 12 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Just a couple minutes ago, you said you don't like him or dislike him. 13 A. 14 the same thing. 15 dislike him. I hardly know him. 16 him, really. What year is this, by the way? 17 you tell me that? That's what -- I'm sort of saying I don't really like him or I don't know Can 18 Q. What year is the testimony? 19 A. No, what year is -- what year did I 20 meet him? 21 Q. That would have been in '04, '05. 22 A. So that's 12 years ago. 23 Q. Three years after 9/11. 24 A. Yes, that's a long time ago. 25 No, I don't -- I don't have a Page 98 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 268 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 269 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump recollection of liking him or disliking him. ·2 Q. Okay. So this testimony might be ·3 accurate; it might be inaccurate, as far as you ·4 know? ·5 A. I don't know. I'm not going to ·6 question the testimony. ·7 didn't like him, but I don't remember not liking ·8 him or any of that. ·9 somebody maybe said that I didn't like him. 10 I don't remember not liking him or not disliking 11 him. 12 Q. Maybe Michael thought I But I could understand But In its initial stages, was Trump 13 University set up to have live, in-person 14 instruction, or was it set up for distance or 15 remote learning? 16 17 18 19 A. I don't remember. I think it was more remote, the initial phase of it. Q. At some point in time, did it shift to live learning? 20 A. I believe so, yes. 21 Q. So this is just -- I want to make 22 sure you and I are on the same page in terms of 23 terminology. 24 instruction, I'm talking about in person. 25 A. When I refer to live events or live Right. Yes, sometime after it Page 99 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 269 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 270 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump opened. Q. And that was sometime -- some number of years after it opened; correct? ·4 A. I believe so, yes. ·5 Q. Can you identify a single person who ·6 was a live events instructor for Trump ·7 University? ·8 A. You'd have to give me a list. You'd ·9 have to show me the list. 10 would go and just walk in and just stand in the 11 back of the room on occasion just to see how they 12 were doing, but it's been so many years, I 13 wouldn't be able to do that. 14 Q. I actually went -- I Let me just give you some names and 15 you tell me whether this could be a live events 16 instructor, a student, neither -- 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. -- any of those three. 19 A. Fine. 20 21 22 23 MR. PETROCELLI: What's the question, Jason? BY MR. FORGE: Q. The question is, this individual I'm 24 saying here, can you tell me whether this person 25 is a student, live events instructor or neither? Page 100 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 270 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 271 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Johnny Harris. ·2 A. Too many years. ·3 Q. Tim Gorsline. ·4 A. Too many years. ·5 Q. Mike Dubin. ·6 A. It sounds very familiar. ·7 Names -- the names sound familiar, just too many years. ·8 Q. Darren Liebmann. ·9 A. The name sounds familiar, but it's 10 too many years. 11 Q. Johnny Burkins. 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. Johnny Horton. 14 A. Too many years. 15 Q. Tim Voss. 16 A. Again, you can go through this whole 17 list. 18 this for a long time, but these are -- some of 19 those names sound familiar to me, but it's too 20 many years ago. 21 Q. Chris Goff? 22 A. Are you going to go through a whole 23 list of names? 24 Q. 25 And I'm sure you'd like to so you can take You're the one that said give me a list. Page 101 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 271 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 272 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: it to him? ·3 THE WITNESS: ·4 MR. PETROCELLI: ·5 MR. FORGE: 10 11 I'm going through the THE WITNESS: If you want to show it to me, I can save you a lot of time. BY MR. FORGE: Q. I'll go through the list. 12 13 Do you want to show names. ·8 ·9 You're right. it to him? ·6 ·7 Do you want to show We left off with Chris Goff. Instructor, student -- 14 A. Again, some of those -- 15 Q. -- neither? 16 A. Some of these names sound familiar 17 18 19 to me. It's too many years ago. Q. Sound familiar as in might have been an instructor, might have been a student -- 20 A. Could have been. 21 Q. Could have been neither? 22 A. No, it would have been more likely Could have been. 23 instructors. I would have known the instructors 24 much more so than the students. 25 have a lot of students testifying, but we have -- We have -- we'll Page 102 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 272 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 273 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 but as far as that list is concerned, I would ·2 have -- the name's familiar, it's just too -- ·3 ·4 MR. PETROCELLI: list," we don't have any document to -- ·5 ·6 THE WITNESS: MR. PETROCELLI: The lawyer is just reading from a piece of paper -- ·9 MR. FORGE: 10 THE WITNESS: 11 I don't know what you're reading from. ·7 ·8 When you say "that I'm just -Shouldn't you have a document before -- 12 MR. PETROCELLI: 13 Excuse me. 14 -- that has not been put in front of -- that's not -- 15 you. 16 testimony will be evaluated in light of his 17 refusal to let you see a list or represent 18 what the list means. 19 questions and we'll take it from there. The record will reflect that and the 20 21 So just answer his Next question, please. BY MR. FORGE: 22 Q. Ken Berry. 23 A. Too many years. 24 Q. James Webb. 25 A. I don't remember the names -- don't Page 103 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 273 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 274 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump remember the name. ·2 Q. James Casper. ·3 A. Too many years. ·4 Q. Mike Casper. ·5 A. Too many years. ·6 Q. Kerry Martin. ·7 A. Some of the names, by the way, sound ·8 Too many years. familiar, but too many years to know. ·9 Q. Paul Lucas. 10 A. Same thing. 11 Q. Kerry Lucas. 12 A. Same answer. 13 Q. Mike Peterson. 14 A. Same answer. 15 Q. Troy Peterson. 16 A. Same answer. 17 Q. Chris Gillem. 18 A. Same answer. 19 Q. Steve Gilpin. 20 A. Same answer. 21 Q. Scott Miller. 22 A. Same answer. 23 Q. Steve Miller. 24 A. Are you going to do this all day? 25 Q. Same answer? Page 104 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 274 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 275 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 A. Same answer. ·2 Q. Derek McNulty. ·3 A. Same answer. ·4 Q. Rick McNally. ·5 A. How many more do you have? ·6 ·7 How many more names do you have? Q. Mr. Trump, you're the one who wants ·8 to get through this quickly. ·9 questions and we'll get through it quickly. 10 A. You're not going to get anything 11 through quickly. 12 through quickly. 13 Just answer the You don't want to get anything Same answer. 14 Q. Jerry Stanton. 15 A. Same answer. 16 Q. Johnny Burkins. 17 A. Same answer. 18 Q. Gerald Martin. 19 A. Same answer. 20 Q. Chris Lefrance. 21 A. Same answer. 22 Q. Steve Goff. 23 A. Same answer. 24 Q. James Webb. 25 A. Same answer to your harassment Page 105 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 275 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 276 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump questions. ·2 Q. Chris Lombardo. ·3 A. Same answer to your harassment ·4 questions. ·5 Q. Keith Holley. ·6 A. Same answer. ·7 Q. Keith Sperry. ·8 A. Same answer. ·9 Q. Howard Bell. 10 A. Same answer. 11 Q. Howard Haller. 12 A. Same answer. 13 Q. Bob Serafine. 14 A. Same answer. 15 Q. Bob Steenson. 16 A. Same answer. 17 Q. Jerry Moore. 18 A. Same answer. 19 Q. Joe Labore. 20 A. Same answer. 21 Q. Mike -- 22 A. Same answer. 23 Q. Mike McMenamy. 24 A. Same answer. 25 Q. Rick McNally. Page 106 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 276 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 277 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 A. Same answer. ·2 Q. Mike Casper. ·3 A. Same answer. ·4 Q. Tim Gorsline. ·5 A. Same answer. ·6 Q. Geoff Nowlin. ·7 A. Same answer. ·8 Q. Steve Gilpin. ·9 A. Same answer. 10 Q. James Christ. 11 A. Same answer. 12 Q. Alex Grist. 13 A. Same answer. 14 Q. Mike Weber. 15 A. Same answer. 16 Q. Don Sexton. 17 A. Same answer -- well, I know the 18 name, but same answer. 19 Still a long time. MR. PETROCELLI: Don Sexton -- could 20 you repeat the question just so he has it 21 in mind. 22 23 24 25 THE WITNESS: I heard the question. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Don Sexton, do you know if he was a live events instructor, a student or neither? Page 107 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 277 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 278 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump A. years ago. I remember the name, but it's many I'd have to check the facts. ·3 Q. Gary Stanton. ·4 A. Same answer. ·5 Q. Gary Sturgeon, S-T-U-R-G-E-O-N. ·6 A. Same answer. ·7 ·8 MR. FORGE: Tab 9. Let's mark this as Exhibit 475. ·9 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 475, No Bates 10 numbers, Sheet of Photographs, marked for 11 identification.) 12 13 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, let's get away from the 14 names and see if you recognize any faces. 15 placed in front of you a photo lineup marked as 16 Exhibit 475 with three rows of eight photos per 17 row, so that's a total of 24 photos. 18 19 I've Do you recognize any of the people depicted on this exhibit? 20 A. What year was this picture taken? 21 Q. Different years. 22 A. I think I should be entitled to know 23 what year it was taken. 24 How many years ago? 25 Q. When were they taken? Different years. Page 108 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 278 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 279 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 A. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Well, I think you should find out. I mean -Q. ·4 Do you recognize any of the -THE WITNESS: ·5 find out -- ·6 Q. ·7 ·8 Are you allowed to -- people whose pictures -THE WITNESS: Are you allowed to find out when they were taken? ·9 MR. PETROCELLI: You know, you just 10 have to answer the questions and get 11 through this. 12 THE WITNESS: 13 MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. These questions are 14 what they are. 15 recognize someone because he won't tell you 16 when the pictures are taken, that's on him. 17 Okay. 18 19 20 If you're not able to BY MR. FORGE: Q. Do you recognize anyone whose photo is on here? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you know whether any of these 23 No, I don't. individuals are students? 24 A. No, I don't. 25 Q. Do you know whether any of these Page 109 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 279 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 280 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump individuals are live events instructors? A. I can't -- I can't tell from these ·3 small pictures now. ·4 obviously many, many years ago. And they were taken ·5 Q. Why is that obvious? ·6 A. Because you can't give me the ·7 ·8 ·9 10 11 answer. Q. Why does that make it obvious it was taken many, many years ago? A. Because if they were taken recently, you'd probably remember. 12 Q. When did I say I didn't remember? 13 A. I don't know. 14 the answer. 15 Q. 16 taken -- 17 A. 18 So why is it obvious they were I would like to know when the pictures were taken. 19 Q. 20 many years ago? 21 A. 22 You wouldn't give me So why is it obvious they were taken Because if they were taken recently, you would remember, I would imagine. 23 Q. When did I say I couldn't remember? 24 A. Well, then tell me who they are, 25 tell me when they were taken. Page 110 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 280 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 281 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 Q. Did I ever say that -- ·2 A. Tell me when they were taken. ·3 Q. Did I say I can't remember? ·4 A. Tell me when they were taken. ·5 many years ago were they taken? ·6 ·7 How Q. I told you they were different years, Mr. Trump. ·8 A. Are you sure about that? ·9 Q. And you don't recognize -- 10 A. Are you sure about that? 11 Q. You don't recognize any of them; 12 right? 13 14 A. Are you sure that they're different years? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. You're sure about that? 17 Q. Sure. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. Do you recognize any of them? 20 A. I don't, no. Okay. We'll find out. 21 (Discussion off the record.) 22 MR. FORGE: 23 24 25 Eileen, if you could mark this 476. (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 476, No Bates number, Color Photograph, marked for Page 111 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 281 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 282 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 identification.) BY MR. FORGE: ·3 ·4 Q. Mr. Trump, Exhibit 476 is a picture of two individuals shaking hands. ·5 ·6 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Do you recognize any of these individuals? ·7 A. This is a very bad -- this is a very ·8 bad picture. ·9 can't see the faces. You can't even see the faces. I 10 Q. Do you want to put your glasses on? 11 A. No. 12 13 dark. It's so Look, you can't see anything there. Q. 14 lighter copy. 15 A. 16 17 I don't need them. Here, take mine. Okay. Maybe mine's a Give me yours. MR. PETROCELLI: For the record -- BY MR. FORGE: 18 Q. Is mine a lighter copy? 19 A. A little bit better, but it's 20 still -- 21 Q. 22 23 24 25 Let me trade with you. MR. FORGE: Eileen, let's mark my copy as 476. THE WITNESS: You can't see anything in there, but I don't think I recognize the Page 112 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 282 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 283 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 name. ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. PETROCELLI: It's better than mine. ·4 MR. FORGE: We'll make this 476A. ·5 It's a black-and-white and might be a ·6 little bit crisper. ·7 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 476A, Black and ·8 White Photograph, marked for ·9 identification.) 10 11 12 13 BY MR. FORGE: Q. individuals? A. 14 15 Do you have a copy of 476A? MR. FORGE: 17 though. 18 BY MR. FORGE: 20 No. MR. PETROCELLI: 16 19 Do you recognize either of the Q. No. We'll make a copy, Do you recognize any of the individuals in that -- 21 A. No, I don't. 22 Q. Do you know whether either one of 23 them is a Trump University student? 24 MR. PETROCELLI: 25 THE WITNESS: Was, you mean? Maybe one -Page 113 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 283 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 284 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 MR. FORGE: ·2 THE WITNESS: ·3 one of them is Mr. Cohen. ·4 Was. I don't know. Maybe BY MR. FORGE: ·5 Q. Do you know whether either one of ·6 them is a Trump University live events ·7 instructor? ·8 A. I really don't know. I don't know. ·9 I can't -- the picture's a very bad picture, but 10 I wouldn't know. 11 Q. Mr. Trump, I don't want to -- 12 contrary to your belief, I don't want to waste 13 time. 14 you didn't recognize -- I can go through them 15 again or you can just tell me, do you know 16 whether any of those individuals whose names I 17 read off to you are experts in real estate? 18 19 20 21 These names I read off to you earlier that A. No. Some of the names sounded familiar to me, but no. Q. Do you know whether any of them have any experience in the real estate industry? 22 A. Have to show me the résumés. 23 Q. But -- 24 25 MR. PETROCELLI: Off the top of your head, he's asking. Page 114 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 284 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 285 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump BY MR. FORGE: ·2 Q. By the name you don't know? ·3 A. No. ·4 résumés. ·5 Q. ·6 No. I'd have to see their Do you know whether any of those individuals possess any expertise in business? ·7 MR. PETROCELLI: ·8 THE WITNESS: ·9 MR. PETROCELLI: 10 13 14 Do I have to -- THE WITNESS: How many times -- BY MR. FORGE: Q. What takes longer, saying same answer or complaining about it? 15 MR. PETROCELLI: 16 THE WITNESS: 17 MR. FORGE: 18 MR. PETROCELLI: 19 It's not harassment. 21 MR. PETROCELLI: 24 25 Don't argue with the witness. THE WITNESS: 23 Harassment. Harassment case. 20 22 Just answer it again. 11 12 Same answer? It's pure harassment. Don't argue with the witness. MR. FORGE: We can reach a common ground -MR. PETROCELLI: Jason, you know Page 115 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 285 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 286 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 ·4 ·5 ·6 ·7 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump that. It's pure -- BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, I want to get out of here as quickly as you do. A. I'm sure you do. leave at 2 o'clock. Q. Okay. I think we may leave early. ·9 2 o'clock, but -A. I'm sure. If we can just answer the questions, ·8 10 I'm sure we'll I don't know Ask me the question for the 11 98th time -- for the 40th time because I went 12 through that all. 13 question. 14 Q. Go ahead and ask me the Ask me the question. Any of those names I read to you 15 earlier, do you know whether any of those 16 individuals possess any expertise in business? 17 A. I'd have to see their résumés. 18 Q. Do you know whether any of those 19 individuals possess any -- have any experience 20 teaching? 21 A. I'd have to see their résumé. 22 Q. And teaching, I'm including 23 mentoring. 24 A. Sure. 25 Q. Off the top of your head, you don't I'd have to see their résumé. Page 116 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 286 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 287 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump know? ·2 A. No. ·3 Q. We've tried names. ·4 pictures. We've tried Let's try voices now. ·5 MR. PETROCELLI: You don't need the ·6 editorial comments about we tried. ·7 object. ·8 questions, please. ·9 10 It's inappropriate. MR. FORGE: That's what you're saying? MR. PETROCELLI: 12 MR. FORGE: 13 MR. PETROCELLI: 15 16 17 Just ask Oh, so no editorial? 11 14 I By you, correct. Only you. That's not your role. MR. FORGE: Could we get 201, 202 and 203, please. The next document we're going to 18 use -- next exhibit, I'm sorry, we're going 19 to use is Exhibit 477. 20 Dan, we have a number of audio/video 21 exhibits. My intention is to give you a 22 disc of each one individually because I 23 don't know how many we're going to go 24 through. 25 get all of them on a flash drive just so And then the court reporter will Page 117 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 287 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 288 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 it's easier for her to maintain them. ·2 So -- ·3 ·4 MR. PETROCELLI: marking this as? ·5 ·6 What are you MR. FORGE: This is going to be Exhibit 477. ·7 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 477, No Bates ·8 numbers, Video Clip, marked for ·9 identification.) 10 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 478, No Bates 11 numbers, Video Clip, marked for 12 identification.) 13 14 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, I'm going to play for you 15 this video. 16 Tell me whether you recognize this individual. 17 18 And just tell me -- it's short. MR. PETROCELLI: Can you turn it to face us. 19 MR. FORGE: 20 (Video is played.) 21 MR. FORGE: Sure. Just for the record, 22 that's going to be Exhibit 478. 23 I handed you is 477. 24 25 Dan, what This is 478. MR. PETROCELLI: Is what you just played, which says, "Jay Morrison - How to Page 118 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 288 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 289 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Get Rich in Real Estate," Exhibit 478? ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. FORGE: Yes. BY MR. FORGE: ·4 Q. Mr. Trump, can you tell me whether ·5 or not that individual was a student at Trump ·6 University, a live events instructor or neither? ·7 A. Well, it looked like -- I don't know ·8 him, but I don't disagree with what he was ·9 saying, either, by the way. 10 like he was an instructor more than a student, 11 but I don't know him. 12 what he was saying, and I thought his 13 presentation was quite interesting, actually. 14 15 Q. But he would look But I don't disagree with But you don't know whether he was an actual instructor at Trump University? 16 A. I don't know, but I might have -- if 17 you showed me his résumé, perhaps I could tell 18 you. 19 MR. PETROCELLI: 20 MR. FORGE: 21 Now I'm going to play 477. 22 MR. PETROCELLI: 23 MR. FORGE: 24 MR. PETROCELLI: 25 Mr. -- Time out. Sure. Miss Reporter, are you transcribing the words? You're just Page 119 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 289 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 290 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 waiting for the flash drive; right? ·2 Thank you. ·3 ·4 He's not making any -- don't make any assumptions about what you're seeing. ·5 THE WITNESS: ·6 MR. PETROCELLI: ·7 Okay. No, I'm just looking. There's been no representation -- ·8 THE WITNESS: I found it very ·9 interesting, actually, to be honest with 10 you. 11 12 MR. PETROCELLI: Now you're going to play 478? 13 MR. FORGE: 14 of order. 15 is 477. 477. I played them out The first one was 478. 16 MR. PETROCELLI: 17 (Video is played.) 18 19 This one Okay. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Do you recognize that individual as 20 a Trump University live events instructor, 21 student or in any other way? 22 A. I'd have to see the résumé. 23 Q. You don't know whether or not he was 24 25 a Trump University instructor? A. No. Page 120 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 290 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 291 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 ·4 ·5 ·6 ·7 Q. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump How would the résumé help you tell whether this person -A. Well, you would be able to evaluate -Q. -- was a Trump University instructor? A. -- where he came from and where he's ·8 been and what he did. ·9 actually good. 10 money down. 11 little money. 12 possible, especially when you're starting because 13 people don't have the money. 14 15 Q. His presentation's I -- I like the concept of no I do like that. I like to put up as I like to use leverage as much as Again, Mr. Trump, if you could focus your response to my question. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. My question was, how would the 18 résumé help you determine whether or not the 19 individual depicted in Exhibit 477 was a Trump 20 University instructor? 21 22 23 A. It would be a guide as to where he's been in life. Q. But how would that help you 24 determine whether -- whether one of the places 25 he's been in life is as a Trump University Page 121 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 291 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 292 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 instructor? ·2 ·3 ·4 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump A. Based on his experience as opposed Q. You mean if his résumé said, I was to -- ·5 an instructor with Trump University, that would ·6 help you put it together? ·7 A. If his résumé said he's been in the ·8 real estate for many years, it's unlikely he'd be ·9 a student, which is what you're asking me. 10 Q. 11 But make sure you understand. With these videos, it's not 12 necessarily an either/or. 13 asking you whether the person was a live events 14 instructor, a student or neither one. 15 I said it's -- I'm MR. PETROCELLI: In other words, 16 they could be a guy off the street or an 17 actor. 18 19 MR. FORGE: Yeah. BY MR. FORGE: 20 Q. Yeah, exactly. 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. Okay. 23 24 25 MR. PETROCELLI: Or -- or a convicted felon. MR. FORGE: Yes, could be that too. Page 122 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 292 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 293 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. So you don't ·2 know what you're looking at because he's ·3 not telling you. ·4 ·5 ·6 THE WITNESS: I don't know. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Okay. So -- and the résumé ·7 wouldn't -- just because you saw this guy's ·8 résumé, you wouldn't be able to see, oh, yes, ·9 this guy was a Trump University instructor? 10 11 12 A. Well, I think a résumé would be helpful, but I've not seen him. Q. But a résumé wouldn't help you 13 determine whether or not the individuals in 477 14 or 478 were actually Trump University 15 instructors; right? 16 17 MR. PETROCELLI: of the résumé. 18 THE WITNESS: 19 the date. 20 had -- 21 BY MR. PETROCELLI: 22 Q. 23 didn't list -- 24 25 Depends on the date Yeah, it depends on I guess it depends on what he Well, assuming it was a résumé that (Simultaneous cross-talk.) A. Now we're on the same path. Got Page 123 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 293 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 294 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 you. Q. ·3 ·4 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Okay. MR. PETROCELLI: I think you're being pitched another television show. ·5 THE WITNESS: ·6 MR. FORGE: ·7 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 479, No Bates Yeah. This is 479. ·8 numbers, Video Clip, marked for ·9 identification.) 10 11 12 (Video is played.) BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, do you recognize the 13 individual depicted in Exhibit 479 as a Trump 14 University instructor, student or neither? 15 A. I don't recognize him. 16 Q. One of the names I mentioned to you 17 earlier was James Harris. 18 recognize that name? 19 20 You said you didn't MR. PETROCELLI: To be clear, when did you mention his name? 21 MR. FORGE: In the list, one of the 22 names I mentioned in the list, James 23 Harris. 24 25 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't recognize it. Page 124 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 294 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 295 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 ·4 ·5 ·6 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump BY MR. FORGE: Q. Do you know or have you known anyone named James Harris? A. I don't know, but I don't recognize that name. Q. Do you know whether or not any Trump ·7 University instructors were caught cussing out ·8 and verbally berating a group of elderly ·9 students? 10 A. No, I don't. 11 MR. FORGE: 12 (Pause from the record.) 13 MR. FORGE: 14 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 480, Bates Nos. Let's do 20 and 21. Mark this as 480. 15 TU154580 through 86, E-mail Chain, marked 16 for identification.) 17 18 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, I've placed in front of 19 you a document marked as Exhibit 480, which is a 20 document that you have produced in discovery in 21 this case. 22 is TU154580. 23 The Bates number for the first page MR. PETROCELLI: When you said 24 "you," do you mean Trump University 25 produced it? Page 125 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 295 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 296 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 MR. FORGE: ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: ·3 TU, but -- okay. ·4 representation. ·5 ·6 ·7 ·8 MR. FORGE: And Mr. Trump. It's Bates numbered We'll accept your And the last page, again, just for the record, is TU154586. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, have you seen Exhibit 480 ·9 prior to today? 10 A. I don't think so. 11 Q. If you look at the bottom of the 12 first page, the e-mail at the bottom of that page 13 from Tiffany Brinkman to April Neumann, do you 14 know either of those people? 15 A. I know the names. 16 names. 17 don't -- I don't remember them. 18 19 I've heard the I mean, it's possible I know them, but I Q. Do you have any idea what, if any, roles they played with Trump University? 20 A. No. 21 Q. If you see, near the end of that 22 e-mail at the bottom, it says, "On another note, 23 James' shows. 24 shows so much. 25 but every which way around it, he dances around Oh my gosh, he swears during his Granted, it's the -- the F word, Page 126 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 296 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 297 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 it and then just outright says bullshit and just ·2 straight calls people an idiot of" -- I think ·3 it's "if he sees the [sic] not taking notes. ·4 offended so many people this weekend. ·5 e-mailed me after one of my shows and said, Tiff, ·6 you provide the best color commentary as ·7 referring to my notes that say James saw an old ·8 crowd and he beat them up, which pissed them ·9 off." 10 11 He MS Do you recall this information that's set forth in this e-mail? 12 A. No, I don't. 13 Q. Is the behavior described in this 14 e-mail consistent with the behavior you wanted 15 from Trump University's live events instructors? 16 17 MR. PETROCELLI: Question lacks foundation. 18 THE WITNESS: No, but I've used foul 19 language. 20 success, I've used foul language. 21 Sometimes you do it for emphasis. 22 used some very bad words. 23 for emphasis and you'll make a point. 24 BY MR. FORGE: 25 Q. When I give speeches about I've And you'll do it So the notion of calling people an Page 127 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 297 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 298 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 idiot if they're seen not taking notes, is that ·2 the type of behavior that you encourage -- ·3 A. I probably wouldn't do that, but ·4 I've used some pretty foul language. ·5 some people have different methods. Some -- ·6 Q. So is this consistent -- ·7 A. It gets their attention. ·8 Q. Is this consistent or inconsistent ·9 with your expectations for instructors at Trump 10 University? 11 A. It wouldn't be the way I do it, but 12 I've had instructors that were extremely profane. 13 Even at the Wharton School of Finance, one in 14 particular. 15 but he was a great instructor. 16 Q. He was a very foul-mouthed person, So this is neither -- not 17 necessarily fair, nor foul in your book; is that 18 what I'm getting from you? 19 20 21 MR. PETROCELLI: The question is vague. THE WITNESS: That's not what I 22 would do, but I mean I -- I've had, in 23 particular, one instructor at the Wharton 24 School that was extremely foul, but he was 25 a great instructor. Page 128 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 298 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 299 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump BY MR. FORGE: Q. Okay. If you flip to the next page of the document, it says, "Denise and I" -- ·4 "Michael, Denise and I have listened ·5 to the recording for this session. ·6 word 'bullshit' and called the attendees ·7 sarcastic SOBs and also tells them that they are ·8 in a room with a multibillionaire." ·9 10 11 12 Do you have any reason to believe that James Harris was a multibillionaire? A. 15 16 17 No, he probably wasn't. He probably wasn't. 13 14 He uses the MR. PETROCELLI: That assumes -- it assumes facts not in evidence. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Assuming Mr. Harris wasn't a multibillionaire -- 18 A. Yes, that's a good assumption. 19 Q. -- would you -- 20 MR. PETROCELLI: I'm saying the 21 question assumes facts not in evidence 22 about who's being referred to, but you can 23 ask your question. 24 25 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Assuming this refers to James Harris Page 129 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 299 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 300 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 and that he referred to himself as a ·2 multibillionaire falsely, is that type of false ·3 information being given to students something ·4 that you endorsed for Trump University? ·5 MR. PETROCELLI: Object; incomplete ·6 hypothetical, lacks foundation, vague and ·7 ambiguous. ·8 THE WITNESS: I would think any ·9 student sitting in the class -- he could 10 have been sarcastic when he said that, but 11 I would think that any student sitting in 12 the class would know that he's not a 13 multibillionaire; otherwise, he wouldn't be 14 doing what he's doing. 15 He wouldn't be, you know, getting -- 16 probably an okay salary or whatever it is 17 for teaching a class, but -- you know. 18 don't know what he's referring to. 19 there was somebody sitting in his room, but 20 I doubt that, too. 21 22 25 Maybe BY MR. FORGE: Q. 23 24 I I'm sorry. You lost me on that one. Maybe there was somebody sitting in the room -A. Who was a rich person. Maybe Page 130 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 300 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 301 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 there's somebody sitting in the room. ·2 don't know that he's referring to himself or is ·3 he referring to somebody else. ·4 Q. I don't know. You mentioned probably getting a ·5 nice salary. ·6 Trump University paid instructors? ·7 ·8 A. Do you have any idea how much money No. Mr. Sexton would have that information. ·9 Q. So -- 10 A. Or Mr. Weisselberg. 11 12 I just The accounting departments would have that. Q. So if Mr. Harris wasn't a 13 multibillionaire and he was representing to 14 students that he was a multibillionaire, is that 15 the type of conduct that you endorsed for the 16 Trump University live events instructors? 17 MR. PETROCELLI: Incomplete 18 hypothetical, lacks foundation, vague and 19 ambiguous. 20 THE WITNESS: He could have been 21 sarcastic. He might have been kidding. 22 I'd have to see the way he said it. 23 BY MR. FORGE: 24 Q. So it might be okay? 25 A. Depending on the way he said it, Page 131 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 301 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 302 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 yeah. ·2 everybody laughed. ·3 many different ways. ·4 Maybe he said it in a joking fashion and Q. I don't know. I've seen it You didn't personally call James ·5 Harris to get him on board with Trump University, ·6 did you? ·7 A. ·8 ·9 10 11 be? How many years ago? What's the date? Q. When did he start? Right now we're talking about him presenting in 2010. A. I see. So it's six years ago. 12 that I remember. 13 but not that I remember. 14 When would that Q. I don't know. Not It's possible, Mr. Trump, throughout the discovery 15 in this case, we haven't received any e-mails 16 that were sent to or from you. 17 e-mail when you were -- during the years 2005 18 through 2010? Did you not use 19 A. 20 e-mails. 21 unlike Hillary Clinton, I'm not a big e-mail fan. 22 Q. It's possible. I send very few I send very, very few. I'm not -- So throughout the time that Trump 23 University was operating, you were not using 24 e-mails in connection with it? 25 MR. PETROCELLI: The question is Page 132 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 302 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 303 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump vague. ·2 THE WITNESS: I don't -- I'm not a ·3 big e-mail person. ·4 found out, I'm not an e-mail person. ·5 Possibly not. ·6 I send very few e-mails. ·7 As you probably have I don't know. I'm not a -- BY MR. FORGE: ·8 Q. To the best of your recollection -- ·9 A. To the best of my recollection. 10 Q. -- did you use any e-mails in 11 12 13 14 connection with Trump University? A. I don't know. I don't know. Again, I don't know, and I'm not a big e-mail person. Q. Did you authorize Mr. Harris to 15 represent to students that they could send you an 16 e-mail? 17 A. No, I don't think so. 18 Q. Did you authorize Mr. -- 19 A. I wouldn't mind if he said that, 20 though. 21 students wanted to send me an e-mail, I wouldn't 22 have minded that. 23 could even see the instructor saying something 24 like that, but -- I don't know what he said, but 25 I wouldn't have -- I wouldn't object if they I wouldn't mind. In other words, if I would have no objection. I Page 133 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 303 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 304 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 ·4 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump wanted to send me e-mails. Q. So even though you weren't using e-mail, it would be okay if he -A. No, but we received e-mails. A lot ·5 of times we send e-mails back. ·6 but I wouldn't mind getting an e-mail from a ·7 student. ·8 somewhere to my office, and I assume I would get ·9 a copy of it. 10 We just don't -- Meaning my office -- it would come in Q. Generally speaking, if anything 11 comes into your office directed to you, you would 12 get a copy of it? 13 14 15 16 A. I could get a copy, yes, that's right. Q. Did you put together a power team for Mr. James Harris? 17 A. What is that? 18 Q. Did you put together a team of 19 people for Mr. Harris? 20 21 MR. PETROCELLI: vague. 22 23 24 25 The question is THE WITNESS: I don't know. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Do you have any idea who comprised his team? Page 134 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 304 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 305 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 A. No, I don't. ·2 Q. The ultimate hiring authority at ·3 ·4 Trump University was Mr. Sexton; correct? A. ·5 ·6 Yes, that's correct. MR. FORGE: Tab 11, please. This will be 481. ·7 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 481, No Bates ·8 numbers, Transcript Excerpt, marked for ·9 identification.) 10 11 BY MR. FORGE: Q. 12 13 14 15 Mr. Trump, I've -MR. PETROCELLI: Can you identify this. BY MR. FORGE: Q. -- placed in front of you a document 16 marked as Exhibit 481, which is an excerpt from 17 Mr. Sexton's sworn testimony to the Office of the 18 New York State Attorney General. 19 20 If you could, please, direct your attention to the second page, which is page 157. 21 At line 10, Mr. Sexton is asked: 22 "QUESTION: And were any of those -- 23 any of these other speakers at any of those 24 events handpicked by Donald Trump?" 25 Mr. Sexton's answer: Page 135 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 305 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 306 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump "ANSWER: None of our instructors at ·2 the live events were handpicked by Donald ·3 Trump." ·4 ·5 ·6 Do you have any basis to dispute Mr. Sexton's testimony in this regard? A. ·7 ·8 No. That's correct. MR. PETROCELLI: vague. ·9 MR. FORGE: 10 THE WITNESS: 11 14 You can take out -I looked at résumés and things, but I didn't pick the speakers. 12 13 The question is MR. FORGE: -- 12. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Again, Mr. Trump, I want to make 15 sure that you are distinguishing -- you're 16 understanding the distinction between the Trump 17 University instructors when it was a distance 18 learning -- 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. -- versus live events. 21 A. Okay. 22 THE WITNESS: Just off the record, 23 I'm sure we're going to take some breaks 24 also in addition to lunches because I have 25 to make calls also, so -Page 136 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 306 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 307 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump BY MR. FORGE: ·2 Q. Well, I've just got to -- ·3 A. This is the longest deposition I've ·4 ever done in terms of no break. ·5 because I have to make some calls. ·6 ·7 Q. 10 A. We do, but breaks are very standard, Q. We'll do one more. so -- 11 12 We haven't taken a break because you want to get through this. ·8 ·9 No problem. So I need breaks MR. FORGE: This we're going to mark as Exhibit 482. 13 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 482, No Bates 14 numbers, Transcript Excerpt, marked for 15 identification.) 16 MR. FORGE: Just for the record, 17 Exhibit 482 is an excerpt from deposition 18 testimony of Michael Sexton. 19 20 BY MR. FORGE: Q. And if you could, please -- in this 21 case, if you could, please, turn to page -- what 22 is page 161 of the deposition. 23 A. Paragraph line? 24 Q. I'll -- again keeping in mind the 25 distinction between the remote learning Page 137 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 307 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 308 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump instructors and live events instructors -- ·2 A. Okay. ·3 Q. -- if you see, beginning at line 14: ·4 "QUESTION: Mr. Sexton, you ·5 mentioned Donald Trump did not review any ·6 of the auditions of the instructors; ·7 correct? ·8 "ANSWER: ·9 Do you have any basis to dispute 10 that testimony? 11 12 MR. PETROCELLI: MR. FORGE: THE WITNESS: that's correct. 17 BY MR. FORGE: 18 Q. 19 No, I didn't. And What he said is correct. Again, these are all focusing on live events instructors, Mr. Trump. 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. Next: 22 Yes, this is live events instructors. 15 16 With respect to the live events? 13 14 That's correct." "QUESTION: To your knowledge, he 23 didn't review any of their school 24 transcripts; correct? 25 "ANSWER: That's correct." Page 138 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 308 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 309 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Any basis to dispute that? ·2 A. I would say that's correct. ·3 Generally speaking, I might have seen something, ·4 but mostly correct, yes. ·5 Q. Are there any live events ·6 instructors whose school transcripts you believe ·7 you saw? ·8 A. ·9 Live events instructors. Well, transcripts -- I don't know. Are you talking about résumés or transcripts? 10 Q. We'll get to résumés, but I'm saying 11 live -- anyone who was actually hired as a live 12 events instructor. 13 A. 14 "transcripts"? 15 Q. Yeah. What do you mean by School transcripts. You know, the 16 grades -- transcript from your school that tells 17 the classes that you took, the semester and the 18 grade. 19 20 21 22 23 A. Oh, I think I've seen them, but not in particular, no. Q. Not in particular. What he says here is Mr. Trump didn't review any of their school transcripts. A. Yeah, "review" is a different word. 24 But I think -- you know, I would see. 25 they had transcripts -- when you say I mean, Page 139 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 309 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 310 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 "transcripts," you're talking about the grades of ·2 students and things like that? ·3 Q. Grades and classes taken. ·4 A. I'd see stuff around, but I ·5 didn't -- yeah, I didn't -- I didn't know the ·6 students. ·7 Q. (Reading): ·8 "QUESTION: ·9 Next question, line 21: 10 "QUESTION: 11 He did not" -- He did not review any of the real estate deals; correct? 12 "ANSWER: 13 Do you have any basis to dispute 14 That's correct." that part of his testimony? 15 A. No, not at all. 16 Q. Line 24. 17 events instructors. 18 19 Again, we're talking live "QUESTION: He did not review their résumés? 20 "ANSWER: That's correct." 21 A. No, I saw résumés. I would see 22 résumés. 23 dispute that because I would see -- I also met 24 with instructors prior to their hiring or around 25 the time of their hiring. They would come to me. I mean, I would Page 140 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 310 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 311 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 Q. Again, Mr. Trump -- ·2 A. I would say that I would -- ·3 MR. PETROCELLI: ·4 THE WITNESS: ·5 ·6 BY MR. FORGE: Q. ·8 seen résumés. 10 11 I would -- I have seen, I think, many résumés. ·7 ·9 Let him finish. I'm not asking you whether you've A. Well, you're asking me is that correct -Q. What I'm asking you is -- what I'm 12 asking you is, did you see the résumés of any 13 individuals who were actually engaged as a Trump 14 University live events instructor? 15 learning, live events. 16 not review the résumés. Not remote Mr. Sexton says you did 17 A. I did see résumés. 18 Q. Of someone who was actually retained 19 20 21 as a live events instructor? A. I saw many résumés. I mean, I saw -- yeah. 22 Q. I'm not asking whether you saw 23 résumés. I'm asking if you saw a résumé of 24 someone who actually wound up working as a live 25 events instructor. Page 141 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 311 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 312 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 A. That's what I'm talking about. ·2 Q. Can you name one? ·3 A. No, I can't. Q. Any record whatsoever of reviewing a ·4 at -- ·5 ·6 I just -- I looked résumé of someone who was actually -- ·7 A. No. ·8 Q. -- brought on as a live events ·9 instructor? 10 11 MR. PETROCELLI: You mean documents? BY MR. FORGE: 12 Q. Documents -- 13 A. No, but I -- 14 Q. -- e-mail, voice mail, anything. 15 A. No, but I would see résumés. 16 met with some of the people. 17 18 I also Q. Are you saying you met with some of the actual live events instructors? 19 A. I think so. I mean, they were 20 brought up to my office, I believe. 21 met with some. 22 for like five to ten minutes, just to walk into a 23 room. 24 someplace, years ago, I'd go to the room. 25 stand in the back of the room and I'd leave. I think I I also would go to places even Like in Palm Beach or in Florida I'd I'd Page 142 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 312 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 313 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 watch for five, ten minutes and I'd just see what ·2 it was like. ·3 occasions. ·4 ·5 But I certainly have seen résumés, yes. ·6 ·7 I did that on a number of Q. Seeing a résumé and seeing a résumé of someone who was hired -- ·8 A. That's what I'm talking about. ·9 Q. How do you know? 10 that any résumé -- 11 12 How do you know A. I don't even know how they came to Q. Mr. Trump -- me -- 13 14 MR. PETROCELLI: 15 please. 16 BY MR. FORGE: 17 Q. One at a time, -- how do you know that any résumé 18 that you might have seen was a résumé of somebody 19 who ultimately was used by Trump University as -- 20 A. Well, I don't know that, but I would 21 see résumés. And I saw some very talented 22 people, you know. 23 job. 24 would see some résumés. You know, maybe he 25 didn't send them to me. Maybe I got them some Because Sexton did a very good He was very good at what he did. But I Page 143 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 313 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 314 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 other way, but I would see résumés for ·2 instructors. ·3 Q. And, again, you just said you don't ·4 know whether or not any of the résumés you saw ·5 were of people who ultimately were brought on as ·6 live events instructors for Trump University. ·7 A. Right. ·8 Q. Okay. ·9 A. No, but I think that they were. Q. But do you have any basis for 10 11 12 13 18 A. No, but I think that they were. MR. PETROCELLI: Other than his recollection. THE WITNESS: They were very -- it's just my feeling. BY MR. FORGE: 19 Q. Just a feeling. 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. Okay. 22 So if Michael Sexton -- who was in charge of running Trump University; right? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. And he was in charge of the 25 But thinking that they were? 16 17 But you have no basis for -- I -- 14 15 But I think that they were. day-to-day operations; right? Page 144 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 314 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 315 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 A. Yes. ·2 Q. And he had the ultimate hiring ·3 authority; right? ·4 A. That's right. ·5 Q. He says you did not review -- ·6 A. I know. ·7 Q. Hold on. ·8 ·9 10 And I'm just -If I could just finish. MR. PETROCELLI: Jason -- BY MR. FORGE: Q. He says you did not review the 11 résumés of anybody that was actually brought on 12 as a live events instructor. 13 MR. PETROCELLI: To be clear, the 14 testimony on 161 does not say that, and we 15 don't have his full testimony. 16 going to object on the ground that it lacks 17 foundation. 18 So I'm BY MR. FORGE: 19 Q. 20 résumés. 21 A. 22 résumés. 23 Q. He says you did not review the All I can tell you, I've seen Okay. But whether or not you've 24 seen a résumé of somebody who wound up being an 25 instructor, you don't know? Page 145 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 315 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 316 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 A. That I can't tell you. ·2 Q. Got it. ·3 A. But I've seen résumés. ·4 Q. Okay. ·5 MR. FORGE: ·6 you can make your calls. Let's take a break so ·7 THE WITNESS: ·8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: ·9 10 Okay. Thank you. Going off the record at 12:04 p.m. (Luncheon recess from the record.) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 146 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 316 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 317 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump A F T E R N O O N ·2 ·3 S E S S I O N THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going back on the record at 12:55 p.m. ·4 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 483, No Bates ·5 numbers, Interrogatory Responses, marked ·6 for identification.) ·7 DONALD J. TRUMP, ·8 having been previously sworn, resumed the ·9 stand and testified further as follows: 10 EXAMINATION (Cont'd.) 11 BY MR. FORGE: 12 Q. Welcome back, Mr. Trump. 13 A. Thank you. 14 Q. Mr. Trump, I've placed in front of 15 you a document that's been marked as Exhibit 483, 16 and that is a redacted version of your responses 17 to the second set of interrogatories by the 18 plaintiffs in the Makaeff case. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And your supplemental response to 21 those interrogatories. 22 23 Could you please just turn to the final page -- 24 A. Final-final? 25 Q. Final-final. Page 147 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 317 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 318 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump -- and confirm that's your signature on the verification. ·3 A. Yes. ·4 Q. About the middle of that stack is ·5 another verification. ·6 A. Yes. ·7 Q. And just confirm that that is also ·8 your -- ·9 A. Yep. 10 Q. -- signature. 11 12 Okay. Now, you read through these responses before verifying them; correct? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. If you could, please, turn to 15 page 2, which is the page that contains 16 Interrogatory No. 10 and your response to that. 17 I will represent to you there's been nothing 18 redacted pertaining to this interrogatory and 19 your response. 20 MR. PETROCELLI: That said, I'll 21 reassert my continuing objection to 22 presenting him a redacted version because I 23 think the entire responses should have been 24 shown to him. 25 question. But that said, ask your Page 148 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 318 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 319 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 ·2 MR. FORGE: Okay. BY MR. FORGE: ·3 Q. ·4 follows: ·5 with Trump University, including, without ·6 limitation, identifying any and all meetings you ·7 attended and all documents relating to Trump ·8 University that you reviewed or prepared or ·9 both." The interrogatory, Mr. Trump, is as "Describe in detail your involvement 10 11 Now, your response set forth below there -- 12 MR. PETROCELLI: 13 Can you just read it to yourself. 14 THE WITNESS: 15 Time out. I am. BY MR. FORGE: 16 Q. 17 you're ready. 18 Take your time and let me know when (Witness peruses the exhibit.) 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. If you look at the second sentence 21 of your response, line -- it begins on line 26: 22 "Mr. Trump's involvement has included, but not 23 limited to the following" -- 24 MR. PETROCELLI: 25 "Not been limited to." Page 149 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 319 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 320 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Q. -- "but not been limited to the following." ·3 Mr. Trump, is there anything -- any ·4 details regarding your involvement with Trump ·5 University that are left out of this response? ·6 ·7 A. I can't think of any. That was just in case I did think of something -- ·8 Q. And that's why I'm asking. ·9 A. This seems to be very complete. 10 Q. Okay. Now, if you turn then to 11 page 3. 12 meetings with various experts responsible for 13 drafting and developing Trump University course 14 materials," and then it lists several 15 individuals; Don Sexton, Gary Eldred, Jack Kaplan 16 and J.J. Childers. And the reference to "attending periodic 17 Do you see that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Is there anybody else -- this says, 20 "including" again there. 21 any other experts -- any other experts or any 22 other individuals with whom you met in connection 23 with developing Trump University course 24 materials? 25 A. Is there anybody else, There may have been. I just -- I Page 150 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 320 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 321 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump just can't think of it right now. Q. Now, these individuals listed on here -- Mr. Sexton, he was involved with the -- ·4 MR. PETROCELLI: ·5 MR. FORGE: ·6 ·9 10 I'm sorry. I said Mr. Sexton. ·7 ·8 Don Sexton. MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah, but there's a Michael, so -BY MR. FORGE: Q. Don Sexton was involved with the 11 distance learning aspect of Trump University; 12 correct? 13 A. 14 17 MR. PETROCELLI: BY MR. FORGE: Q. 19 e-learning -- 20 22 23 24 25 You mean e-learning? 18 21 I don't quite -- but I think so. 15 16 I think so. Whatever you want to call it, MR. PETROCELLI: You mean the Internet? BY MR. FORGE: Q. -- distance learning, remote learning, Internet learning -A. I think that's correct. Page 151 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 321 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 322 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 Q. -- we're all on the same page. ·2 A. He was with Stanford University or ·3 formerly used to be with Stanford University. ·4 Yes. ·5 ·6 I think that's correct, yes. Q. And that's also correct for Gary Eldred? ·7 A. Right. ·8 Q. That's also correct for Michael ·9 Gordon? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. Same for Jack Kaplan? 12 13 14 MR. PETROCELLI: What's also correct? BY MR. FORGE: 15 Q. These individuals -- 16 A. I'd really rather have you ask that 17 question of Mr. Sexton. 18 Q. No problem. 19 A. Because I wouldn't know those 20 answers. 21 Q. But do you have any reason to 22 believe, for example, that Jack Kaplan was 23 involved at all in providing any live instruction 24 mentoring to students? 25 A. I don't know. I don't know. Page 152 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 322 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 323 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 Q. How about Mr. Gordon? ·2 A. I don't know. ·3 Q. How about Mr. Eldred? ·4 A. I don't know. ·5 Q. Mr. Childers? ·6 A. I don't know. ·7 Q. But do you know that those -- Don ·8 Sexton, Gary Eldred, Michael Gordon, Jack Kaplan, ·9 do you know that they were involved early on when 10 Trump University was an e-learning platform? 11 A. Well, when it was started. 12 view it that way. 13 University. 14 involved, yes. 15 stayed involved. 16 Q. I don't I look at it as Trump When it was started, they were And I don't know how long they You'd have to ask Mr. Sexton. But do you agree when Trump 17 University was started, it was strictly an 18 e-learning platform? 19 20 21 A. I -- pretty much, but I'd rather have you ask that question of Mr. Sexton. Q. So from your mind, did -- in terms 22 of the substance of Trump University, did 23 anything change when it shifted from e-learning 24 to live instruction? 25 A. Well, I guess it was a little Page 153 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 323 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 324 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 different, but the word "quality" I think would ·2 have to stay there. ·3 think the quality remained. ·4 important to Mr. Sexton to have the quality ·5 remain. ·6 ·7 Q. And I think the quality -- I I think it was very You did not do any sort of quality control over the materials, did you -- ·8 A. Well -- ·9 Q. -- personally? 10 A. -- look, the original concepts and 11 everything else. 12 presented to me, different statements. 13 did things like that. 14 important, right. 15 Q. But we would give, as you I mean, I I think that's very What I'm getting at is -- I just 16 want to confirm one way or the other -- you did 17 not actually do a quality control -- you, Donald 18 Trump, personally did not do a quality control -- 19 20 21 A. Most of that would be Mr. Sexton and his staff. Q. And Mr. Sexton, he had no background 22 in terms of buying and selling real estate for 23 profit, did he? 24 25 MR. PETROCELLI: Lacks foundation. Lacks foundation. Page 154 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 324 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 325 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 THE WITNESS: ·2 educational person. ·3 BY MR. FORGE: ·4 ·5 He was more of an Q. As far as you knew, he did not have any background buying and selling real estate? ·6 A. ·7 talked to him. ·8 year ago. ·9 person who -- frankly, who was very much into the 10 world of education. 11 Q. I -- it was long time ago that I You're talking about many, many But he was a -- he's a high-quality But as you sit here today, do you 12 know whether or not he had any experience buying 13 and selling -- 14 A. It was limited. It was limited. 15 think it was much more so in the school world 16 rather than the real estate world. 17 18 Q. Do you have any understanding as to whether he had ever run a school before this? 19 20 I A. That I don't -- it's too long ago. I don't remember. 21 Q. Do you have any understanding as to 22 whether he'd ever been an actual teacher before 23 this? 24 25 And "this" being Trump University. A. I had the information many, many years ago, and I was very impressed with him. Page 155 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 325 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 326 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 And, frankly, I was very impressed with the job ·2 he did. ·3 during the trial. ·4 with the job he did. ·5 people that have written us that want to testify. ·6 ·7 People were very happy. Q. You'll see that I mean, people were very happy I mean, we have so many Do you know how many people have opted out of the class, Mr. Trump? ·8 A. No, I don't know. ·9 Q. First of all, do you know how many 10 students that were paid live events students? 11 Ballpark. 12 A. Live event -- I'd rather not say 13 because I don't know. 14 Thousands. 15 16 Q. Okay. A. No. 18 Q. Ten. 19 21 Out of those thousands, do you know how many have opted out of this case? 17 20 You know, thousands. I don't, no. MR. PETROCELLI: Are you testifying now? BY MR. FORGE: 22 Q. Does that surprise you? 23 A. What do you mean, "opted out"? 24 25 What does that -Q. Do you understand how the class Page 156 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 326 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 327 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump notice procedure works? ·2 A. Yeah. ·3 Q. Do you understand how it works? ·4 Go ahead. MR. PETROCELLI: Do you understand ·5 that nobody ever opts out of classes ·6 because all they do is sit and get a check? ·7 Do you understand that? ·8 THE WITNESS: ·9 MR. PETROCELLI: 10 11 12 13 14 15 Yeah. Okay. This is not relevant to the testimony. Okay. Just -- you're telling him that ten people -MR. FORGE: Dan, be a professional. Come on. MR. PETROCELLI: You're telling him 16 that ten people opted out is irrelevant to 17 what we're doing. 18 MR. FORGE: 19 MR. PETROCELLI: 20 Just -- MR. FORGE: 22 THE WITNESS: 24 25 You don't need to -- 21 23 Just move on. Just be a professional. Just go to trial and we'll see. MR. PETROCELLI: You don't need to challenge every single answer that he Page 157 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 327 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 328 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump gives. ·2 MR. FORGE: Just be a professional. ·3 That's all I'm asking. ·4 professional. ·5 ·6 MR. PETROCELLI: MR. FORGE: MR. PETROCELLI: MR. FORGE: Just be a professional. All right. 13 14 So just move on. Okay. 11 12 Just be a professional. Okay. ·9 10 It's really amateurish. ·7 ·8 Just be MR. PETROCELLI: I want you to disregard everything he tells you -- 15 THE WITNESS: 16 MR. PETROCELLI: I am. -- about the class 17 action process because he has no business 18 telling you, nor does he have any knowledge 19 about it. 20 THE WITNESS: 21 MR. PETROCELLI: 22 23 24 25 Okay. Your lawyer will advise you of that -BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump -MR. PETROCELLI: -- not a person Page 158 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 328 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 329 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump suing you. BY MR. FORGE: ·3 Q. Are you aware that the class action ·4 process -- the class notice process involves a ·5 notice of the class action being sent to all of ·6 the students who were live events students? ·7 ·8 A. I'm not going -- you're talking about class action lawsuit? ·9 Q. In this case. 10 A. You're talking about a lawsuit, 11 "class action" meaning a lawsuit? 12 Q. Yes, sir. 13 A. I'm not that involved -- I'm not 14 that familiar with class action lawsuits, no. 15 Q. All right. And are you aware that 16 each person who receives notice of the class has 17 the opportunity to opt out of the class if they 18 don't want to be a part of it? 19 A. Well, probably most would stay in 20 it. 21 you stay in? 22 stay in, too. 23 Q. Are you aware of anyone -- 24 A. I think I'd stay in. 25 If they can get a free check, why wouldn't aware of it. Who wouldn't stay in? I think I'd No, I'm not I'm really not -- I'm not aware of Page 159 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 329 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 330 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 class action lawsuits. ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Q. So you weren't aware that only ten people had opted out of this lawsuit? ·4 MR. PETROCELLI: ·5 Assumes facts not in evidence, lacks foundation. ·6 THE WITNESS: Which lawsuit are we ·7 talking about, the Cohen lawsuit or the ·8 other lawsuit? ·9 BY MR. FORGE: 10 Q. Cohen lawsuit. 11 A. I'm really not aware of it. It's 12 the most ridiculous lawsuit I've ever seen, I 13 will say that, especially as a RICO lawsuit. 14 that's okay. 15 we do. 16 Q. That's up to you. But You'll see how You had one lawsuit in which you 17 sued somebody for defamation because they said 18 you were worth hundreds of millions of dollars 19 instead of billions; right? 20 A. And I did very well in that lawsuit. 21 Unfortunately, we can't prove damages, so that's 22 okay. 23 24 25 Q. Hold on. Let's make sure we're talking about the same lawsuit. This is the lawsuit against Timothy Page 160 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 330 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 331 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump O'Brien and Warner Books? ·2 A. Yeah. ·3 Q. And your testimony was you did very ·4 ·5 well -A. We were doing very well. And, ·6 frankly, the biggest problem with that lawsuit is ·7 we couldn't prove damages. ·8 ·9 10 11 Q. No, your testimony you just gave is that you did very well in that lawsuit; right? A. I lost the lawsuit, but I made a very good point with that lawsuit. 12 Q. So you lost the lawsuit. 13 A. Yes, but I'm glad I brought that 14 lawsuit. 15 lawsuit. 16 Q. I made a very good point with that Is there any other information that 17 is responsive to Interrogatory No. 10 that is not 18 set forth in your response or your supplemental 19 method response, which is attached to the same 20 exhibit? 21 MR. PETROCELLI: The question is 22 vague, ambiguous, overbroad, calls for a 23 legal conclusion, lacks foundation. 24 25 Subject to those objections, you can answer. Page 161 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 331 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 332 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 THE WITNESS: I don't think so. BY MR. FORGE: ·3 ·4 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Q. You know George Ross; right, Mr. Trump? ·5 A. George Ross, yes. ·6 Q. You've known him for quite some ·8 A. Yes. ·9 Q. Do you respect him? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Trust him? ·7 time? 12 13 MR. PETROCELLI: done -- 14 THE WITNESS: 15 MR. PETROCELLI: 16 17 Give it to the BY MR. FORGE: Q. 19 estate expert? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Yes, sir. 22 A. Yes. 24 Yes. reporter. 18 23 I think we're Do you consider him to be a real George Ross, the lawyer? Sure. MR. FORGE: If we could mark this -- I guess we're on 484. 25 Page 162 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 332 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 333 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 BY MR. FORGE: ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Q. Mr. Trump. You can hold on to that 483, We're going to refer back to that. ·4 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 484, No Bates ·5 numbers, Foreword by Donald J. Trump, ·6 marked for identification.) ·7 BY MR. FORGE: ·8 Q. Mr. Trump, does Exhibit 484 appear ·9 to be a true and accurate copy of the cover of 10 George Ross' book, Trump Strategies for Real 11 Estate? 12 A. I never had anything to do with this 13 book, so I don't know. 14 know George did it. 15 16 Q. I saw it very briefly. I Does it appear to be the cover of the book? 17 A. It looks like it, yes. 18 Q. If you look on the second page of 19 the exhibit, it was copywritten in 2005 by George 20 Ross. 21 Do you see that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. If you flip through that exhibit, 24 you'll see that there are several case studies 25 presented in detail. The first one, at page 3 of Page 163 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 333 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 334 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump the exhibit, is Trump's 40 Wall Street building. ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: Just to be clear, ·3 the exhibit pages are not marked. ·4 page 47 -- ·5 ·6 ·7 You mean BY MR. FORGE: Q. Physical page 3 of the exhibit. Page 47 of the book. ·8 A. 47. ·9 Q. Okay. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Trump's 40 Wall Street building? Go ahead. Do you see that? 12 At page 101 of the book, if you keep 13 flipping through, is Trump Tower on Fifth Avenue. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. Page 128 is the GM Building. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. 156 is Via Trump Brazil. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. And page 196 is Mar-a-Lago. 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. These are all deals that you did; 22 correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do you have any reason to believe 25 Got it. that any of the information contained in Page 164 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 334 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 335 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Mr. Ross' book is inaccurate? ·2 ·3 A. The question is vague and ambiguous and overbroad. ·6 THE WITNESS: ·7 book. ·8 I just never read the George did this by himself. MR. PETROCELLI: Lacks foundation. BY MR. FORGE: 10 Q. Do you have -- these are all deals that you did; right? 12 13 I never read the MR. PETROCELLI: ·5 11 I don't know. book. ·4 ·9 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump A. Yeah. These were deals that are my deals, yes. 14 Q. Did you -- do you have any knowledge 15 of any information that was provided regarding 16 these case studies at Trump University that 17 differed in any way from what Mr. Ross presented 18 in his book? 19 20 21 A. No, I don't know -- I never read his Q. So you have no reason to believe book. 22 that Trump University used different information 23 than what is set forth in this document? 24 25 A. I don't know -MR. PETROCELLI: Lacks foundation. Page 165 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 335 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 336 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump THE WITNESS: I just don't know. BY MR. FORGE: ·3 Q. Gary Eldred is one of the ·4 individuals that you identified as someone ·5 involved early on in Trump University; correct? ·6 A. I believe so, yes. ·7 Q. Do you know him? ·8 A. No. ·9 Q. Do you have any information 10 regarding his level of real estate expertise? 11 A. No. I may have met him early on, 12 but I don't really -- I have to look at résumés 13 again. 14 Q. You never asked Mr. Eldred to review 15 any of the Trump University live event materials, 16 did you? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. To your knowledge? 19 A. To my knowledge -- to my knowledge, 20 no. 21 22 23 MR. FORGE: Tab 16. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, you haven't maintained 24 any file of résumés that you've received in 25 connection with Trump University, did you? Page 166 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 336 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 337 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 A. No, I didn't. ·2 Q. Mr. Trump, these individuals that ·3 you identified in your Response to Interrogatory ·4 No. 11, that would be Mr. Sexton -- Don Sexton, ·5 Gary Eldred, Michael Gordon, would it concern you ·6 if any of them had looked at the Trump University ·7 live materials and considered them to be ·8 terrible? ·9 MR. PETROCELLI: The question is 10 vague and ambiguous, calls for improper 11 opinion testimony. 12 13 14 BY MR. FORGE: Q. You can still answer the question. MR. PETROCELLI: I'm objecting for 15 the record, but you can answer subject to 16 my objections. 17 objections, your answer may be stricken. 18 But you have to answer now unless I 19 instruct you not to. 20 If the judge agrees with my THE WITNESS: Well, it would always 21 concern me subject to an answer. 22 they weren't working for us anymore and 23 they wanted to continue working and, 24 therefore, they were knocking the program 25 or something. I don't know. Maybe But, yes, Page 167 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 337 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 338 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 something like that would concern me, but ·2 it depends on what basis they were saying ·3 it. ·4 ·5 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Did you have any understanding one ·6 way or the other as to whether or not the live ·7 event previews were recorded? ·8 A. I don't remember. ·9 Q. You never listened to one of the 10 recordings in its entirety, did you? 11 A. No, I didn't. 12 Q. You never read a transcript of one 13 of the presentations in its entirety, did you? 14 A. Not that I remember, no. 15 Q. You never asked one of your Trump 16 Organization real estate experts to listen to a 17 recording in its entirety, did you? 18 A. I think some of them actually went 19 to -- just to see, you know, when they were like 20 in an area like Florida. 21 some classes, sat in the back. 22 sit, I stood. 23 looked like. 24 25 Q. I told you I went into I didn't even I just wanted to see what it You said you stood for about five or ten minutes. Page 168 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 338 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 339 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 A. Very quickly, just in and out. ·2 Q. What I'm asking is whether you ever ·3 experienced from start to finish an entire ·4 preview presentation. ·5 A. ·6 spot-check in. ·7 Q. No, not that I remember. I would Any of the actual paid seminars or ·8 mentoring, did you ever sit in on an entire ·9 session of one of those? 10 A. No, I didn't. 11 Q. Did you ever have any of your real 12 estate experts for Trump Organization actually 13 sit through the entire session? 14 A. I can't answer that. I didn't tell 15 them to, but -- it's possible that somebody did, 16 but I just can't answer that. 17 Q. To your knowledge -- 18 A. Not to my knowledge, no. 19 Q. The same thing as far as listening 20 to an entire recording, to your knowledge, you 21 can't identify anybody from Trump University who 22 did that? 23 A. That's right. 24 Q. Are you familiar with the concept of 25 a sandwich lease or a lease option sandwich? Is Page 169 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 339 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 340 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 that -- ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump A. There are a lot of different names. Tell me what it is and I'll tell you. ·4 Q. ·5 Sure. It's a lease with an option to buy. ·6 A. Yes. ·7 Q. And then the sandwich is the person ·8 who gets the lease with the option to buy then ·9 goes out and finds somebody else to pay more -- 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. -- for the lease with the option to 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Is that something that you have A. It's something that can be done. 12 15 16 buy. used? I 17 do lease options. 18 could find some instances of it. 19 complicated when you start getting into more than 20 one transaction in one deal, but it's something 21 that certainly could be considered. 22 23 Q. Yeah. I mean, I probably It gets I take that. But what I'm asking you is, is it 24 anything that you've actually done that you can 25 identify for us? Page 170 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 340 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 341 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 A. I'd have to think about it. done many, many deals. ·3 ·4 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Q. Okay. I've I'd have to review it. At least off the top of your head, none comes to mind? ·5 A. ·6 to review it. ·7 Q. Do you know what a bandit sign is? ·8 A. A bandit sign. ·9 It's something that is done. I don't -- I don't recognize it, no. 10 11 Nothing comes to mind, but I'd have Q. That phrase doesn't mean anything to you? 12 How about putting signs up by the 13 roadside that say, "We buy houses" or "I buy 14 houses"? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. Is that something that you've ever A. Well, in California, I have a 17 18 I mean, it's very common. used? 19 project that was very big with the -- we called 20 roadside signs, where we were selling houses with 21 roadside signs, yeah, very much so. 22 23 Q. Do you mean billboards or actual signs planted in the ground? 24 A. Ground signs, they're called. 25 Q. Selling houses. Page 171 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 341 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 342 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 A. Yes. ·2 Q. What about buying? ·3 that say, "We buy houses"? ·4 A. People do that. They put them up ·5 and they say, "We buy houses." ·6 a -- ·7 ·8 ·9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q. A. Q. A. Generally I wouldn't do that, no. I Do you know whether or not that's a I've never heard of it as being illegal, no. Q. But, again, it's not something you've done, so you -A. Q. In that case, you wouldn't do it, if But it's something that people do. If you had done it, you would have checked the legality of it; is that fair to say? 21 MR. PETROCELLI: You're saying would he personally? 23 25 What I'm asking is, is that a technique that's illegal in some places? 19 24 That's usually build and sell. it's illegal. 22 Yeah. technique that you use? 18 20 What about signs (Reporter seeks clarification.) BY MR. FORGE: Q. If you had used this type of Page 172 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 342 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 343 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 technique, you would have had the legality ·2 checked out? ·3 A. ·4 Yes, I would have done that, yes. MR. FORGE: Let's take out Tab 76, ·5 please. ·6 Let's make this Exhibit 485. ·7 And Tab 21. And Tab 25, please. (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 485, No Bates ·8 numbers, Book Excerpt, marked for ·9 identification.) 10 11 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, does Exhibit 485 appear 12 to be a true and accurate copy of the cover and a 13 couple pages from your book Think Like a 14 Billionaire? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. If you could, please, direct your 17 attention to the final paragraph of the excerpt 18 that begins on page 28 of the book. 19 specifically -- 20 21 22 MR. PETROCELLI: Well, that's 53. BY MR. FORGE: Q. -- the part that says -- 23 MR. FORGE: 24 MR. PETROCELLI: 25 And I'm sorry? The final page is page 53 of the book. Page 173 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 343 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 344 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 MR. FORGE: ·2 context provided. ·3 ·4 ·5 BY MR. FORGE: Q. If you look at page 28 -- I'm sorry -- page 28, the final -- ·6 A. 28, 29. ·7 Q. Yes, sir. ·8 ·9 Maybe there's more Yes, I see. Is that a sincere sentiment that you expressed in those sentences? 10 A. Yes, I think so. 11 Q. Do you believe it to this day? 12 A. Let's see. 13 14 15 16 (Witness peruses the exhibit.) A. Be careful, yes. Q. 17 18 It's true. If you could, please -MR. FORGE: Let's take a break for two minutes. 19 20 That actually puts people on notice. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record at 1:20 p.m. 21 (Recess from the record.) 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 23 on the record at 1:24 p.m. 24 25 We are going back MR. FORGE: Mark this as 486, please. Page 174 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 344 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 345 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 486, Bates Nos. ·2 TU154573 through 79, E-mail Chain, marked ·3 for identification.) ·4 ·5 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, I've placed in front of ·6 you a document marked as Exhibit 486. ·7 copy of the e-mail string that you produced to us ·8 that begins at TU154573 -- ·9 10 11 12 13 MR. PETROCELLI: It is a Jason -- BY MR. FORGE: Q. By "you," I mean you and/or Trump University. MR. PETROCELLI: Are you saying that 14 both defendants produced them or are you 15 saying that Trump University produced them? 16 MR. FORGE: I'm saying both 17 defendants produced them, is my 18 understanding. 19 defendants. It was produced by both 20 MR. PETROCELLI: 21 MR. FORGE: I don't know, so -- And I don't know if that 22 distinction was made -- they cut that fine 23 of a line. 24 25 MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. It may matter, so that's the only reason I'm Page 175 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 345 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 346 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 bringing it up, whose documents they are -- ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump THE WITNESS: I haven't seen these. BY MR. FORGE: ·4 Q. It begins TU154573 and ends at 579. ·5 A. Okay. ·6 Q. Keeping in mind what you described, ·7 the cautionary tone you struck in your Think Like ·8 a Billionaire, if you would look at this e-mail ·9 from -- on the first page -- 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. -- reporting from this purported 12 student, "I was told" -- about the middle of it. 13 "I was told at the three-day retreat that I would 14 earn back 100 percent of my investment within the 15 first 90 days. 16 ago and I have yet to make a dime." That has been almost two years 17 A. Did the work? 18 Q. I was going to ask you, were you 19 Did he try? aware of complaints such as this? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Were you aware of representations I haven't seen this. 22 being made to students about being able to 23 recover their investment in the program quickly? 24 25 MR. PETROCELLI: Assumes facts not in evidence. Page 176 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 346 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 347 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump THE WITNESS: People have to go and ·2 work. ·3 he sat down and watched television for a ·4 period of time. ·5 no, I haven't heard that. ·6 that. ·7 BY MR. FORGE: ·8 Q. I don't know. Did he work? I don't know. Maybe This is -- I've never seen Do you know whether or not ·9 instructors were representing to students that 10 they could make back their money that they were 11 investing in Trump University within a matter of 12 90 days? 13 A. I have not heard that, no. 14 Q. Is that something that you 15 encouraged Michael Sexton to encourage 16 instructors to represent? 17 A. No, I didn't. 18 Q. Is that something that you were 19 20 aware was being represented? A. 21 22 23 24 25 No. MR. PETROCELLI: Assumes facts not in evidence. BY MR. FORGE: Q. How about making back the money in anything less than 90 days? I'm not going to go Page 177 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 347 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 348 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump through all the different iterations. A. I haven't heard of that before, no. ·3 MR. FORGE: ·4 mark this as 487. ·5 Tab 73, please. We can (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 487, No Bates ·6 numbers, Transcript Excerpt, marked for ·7 identification.) ·8 ·9 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Again, Mr. Trump, with pretty much 10 any of these deposition excerpts I'm showing you, 11 if you want to see the video of it to see and 12 hear it, we've got it ready for you if you want. 13 All you have to do is let me know. 14 Taking a look at Exhibit 487, 15 Mr. Trump, that is an excerpt from the testimony 16 of Gerald Martin. 17 name that's not familiar to you; correct? You mentioned earlier that's a 18 A. That's right. 19 Q. If you could, please, focus your 20 attention on pages 152 and 153, 152 beginning at 21 line 11. 22 A. Line 11? 23 Q. Yes, sir. 24 25 If you read through to the next page, line 15. Page 178 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 348 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 349 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump (Witness peruses the exhibit.) ·2 A. Where do you want me to stop? ·3 Q. Line 15 on page 153. ·4 MR. PETROCELLI: I have an objection ·5 to the extent that this expert -- excerpt ·6 does not contain all the testimony relevant ·7 to this topic. ·8 You can proceed. ·9 I note that, for example, on 10 page 152 there's a reference to a slide. 11 We don't know what that slide is about. 12 (Witness peruses the exhibit.) 13 THE WITNESS: 14 15 I'm not familiar with it. BY MR. FORGE: 16 Q. You're not familiar -- 17 A. No, I'm not familiar with this. 18 Q. -- with Mr. Martin falsely 19 represented to students that you had conveyed 20 words of wisdom -- 21 A. I had not heard that, no. 22 Q. Is that something you endorsed, 23 instructors falsely representing that they had 24 had dinner with you? 25 A. No. No, I wouldn't do that. Page 179 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 349 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 350 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Q. Is that something you authorized Mr. Sexton to authorize? ·3 A. No. ·4 Q. Is that consistent with the ·5 integrity of the Trump brand as you've tried to ·6 build it? ·7 ·8 MR. PETROCELLI: The question is vague and ambiguous. ·9 THE WITNESS: I just don't know -- 10 I'm reading just a few sentences. 11 don't know what happened. 12 dinner with me. 13 me. 14 people say they have dinner with me. BY MR. FORGE: 16 Q. He said he had Didn't have dinner with I just don't know. 15 I just I guess a lot of Well, representing to a group of 17 students and prospective students that the 18 instructor had such a close relationship with 19 you, he had dinner with you and you talked about 20 real estate with him, that type of false 21 representation, is that consistent or 22 inconsistent -- 23 A. 24 25 No, I wouldn't -MR. PETROCELLI: Assumes facts not in evidence and improper opinion testimony. Page 180 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 350 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 351 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump BY MR. FORGE: Q. Let me finish the question. ·3 Is that consistent or inconsistent ·4 with the integrity of the Trump brand as you've ·5 tried to make it? ·6 MR. PETROCELLI: Assumes facts not ·7 in evidence, improper opinion testimony, ·8 lacks foundation. ·9 You can answer. 10 THE WITNESS: 11 12 13 with him. BY MR. FORGE: Q. 14 15 16 17 I didn't have dinner I realize that. He -- A. I don't think. I mean, it's a long time ago. Q. He acknowledged that you didn't have 18 dinner with him. 19 false to say that to the students. So he acknowledged that it was 20 A. I wouldn't like him to say that. 21 Q. Did you authorize Michael Sexton to 22 authorize instructors to make false statements 23 like that? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Do you believe in setting an example I wouldn't do that. Page 181 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 351 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 352 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 from the top? ·2 ·3 MR. PETROCELLI: ·6 The question is vague and ambiguous. ·4 ·5 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump THE WITNESS: What does that mean? BY MR. FORGE: Q. Do you believe that you, being at ·7 the top of your organization, set an example for ·8 all the people beneath you? ·9 A. Ideally, yes. 10 Q. Do you agree that that works -- that 11 that can work positively or negatively? 12 A. Yeah, I think so. 13 Q. You could set a good example or you 14 could set a bad example? 15 A. Sure. 16 Q. I assume you try to set a good 17 example. 18 A. I do. 19 Q. You agree with me that encouraging 20 others to -- in this context, Trump University 21 encouraging instructors to lie to students is not 22 the example you want to set; correct? 23 24 25 MR. PETROCELLI: Before you answer... It assumes facts not in evidence, Page 182 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 352 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 353 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 improper hypothetical, lacks foundation, ·2 improper opinion testimony. ·3 You can answer. ·4 THE WITNESS: No, I want everything ·5 to be very -- I don't think it has any ·6 impact on what you learn in the class, but ·7 I would rather have them not say that he ·8 had dinner with me. ·9 something or maybe watched me on 10 television, but I would rather him not say 11 he had dinner with me. 12 Maybe he saw me or BY MR. FORGE: 13 Q. But you agree that encouraging 14 instructors to lie to students sets a bad 15 example? 16 MR. PETROCELLI: 17 THE WITNESS: Same objection. I wouldn't do it. I 18 mean, this is the first I've ever seen it. 19 I wouldn't do it. 20 BY MR. FORGE: 21 22 Q. So -- but I'm asking with respect A. If I was an instructor, I wouldn't to -- 23 24 25 do it. Q. I'm talking about the person above Page 183 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 353 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 354 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 the instructor. I'm saying would you tell the ·2 instructors to lie to the students? ·3 A. No, I would not do that. ·4 Q. Do you believe it would set a bad ·5 ·6 ·7 ·8 ·9 10 example for the instructors if you did that? A. I just don't like something that's not truthful. Q. But I'm just asking, do you believe that would set a bad example for the instructors? A. I don't think it would have any 11 impact on the students, no. 12 it might actually incentivize the students and it 13 might make the students feel better about 14 themselves because they've taken the class. 15 think, if anything, it might have a positive 16 impact, but I still wouldn't authorize it. 17 18 19 Q. So I Well, I'm sure it would have a positive impact on the students -A. 20 21 I think it would -- -- confidence -(Simultaneous cross-talk.) Q. My question for you, Mr. Trump, was 22 whether it sets a good or a bad example for the 23 instructors, not the students. 24 Setting that tone at the top, a tone 25 of lying to the students, does that set a good or Page 184 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 354 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 355 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 bad example for the students -- for the ·2 instructors? ·3 MR. PETROCELLI: Improper opinion ·4 testimony, lacks foundation, improper ·5 hypothetical, vague and ambiguous. ·6 You can answer. ·7 THE WITNESS: It might be hyperbole ·8 where he just is talking, bragging or ·9 something, but I don't think it has any 10 impact on the student whatsoever. 11 the instructor -- it's probably hyperbole. 12 I think BY MR. FORGE: 13 Q. That's still not what I'm asking you 15 A. Go ahead. 16 Q. Encouraging an instructor to lie to 14 mean. Try again. 17 the students, do you believe that sets a good or 18 a bad example for the instructor? 19 MR. PETROCELLI: 20 THE WITNESS: 21 anybody. 22 instructor is. 23 encourage anybody. 24 25 Same objections. I didn't encourage I don't even know who the So, you know, I didn't BY MR. FORGE: Q. You have no idea what Gerald Martin Page 185 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 355 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 356 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump represented to students; right? ·2 A. No, I don't know that. ·3 Q. You have no idea what James Harris ·4 ·5 ·6 ·7 ·8 represented to students; right? A. No, I didn't -- I don't know that. I don't know that. Q. And you have no idea what Keith Sperry represented to students; correct? ·9 A. No. 10 Q. You have no idea what Steve Goff 11 12 represented to students; correct? A. I know you're in classes for hours 13 and hours. 14 the various students. No, I don't know what they said to 15 Q. You don't know what Chris Goff -- 16 A. Many people are very happy with the 17 18 19 courses, I know that. Q. You don't know what Chris Goff represented; correct? 20 A. No. 21 Q. You don't know what any of these 22 live events instructors represented to students; 23 correct? 24 A. 25 Well, they represented real estate and real estate knowledge. That's what they Page 186 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 356 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 357 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 represented. And many people are very happy with ·2 those classes. ·3 Q. Do you have personal knowledge of ·4 anything these live events instructors ·5 represented to students? ·6 ·7 ·8 ·9 10 A. I must tell you I had it for a long time and I had very few complaints. Q. Do you have personal knowledge of anything an instructor -A. Usually if people have problems with 11 something that I have, I will be inundated with 12 letters and phone calls and other things. 13 received almost nothing for years from Trump 14 University. I 15 Q. Just try to focus on my question -- 16 A. I'm just telling you, I received 17 very few complaints over years with thousands of 18 students. 19 Q. Do you have personal knowledge of 20 any of the representations that the live events 21 instructors made to the students? 22 MR. PETROCELLI: By "personal 23 knowledge," do you mean did he hear them 24 himself? 25 MR. FORGE: Hear them, read them. Page 187 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 357 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 358 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 ·4 ·5 THE WITNESS: Hear them myself, no. Read them myself, no. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Have you ever -- have you ever been deceived? ·6 A. Yes. ·7 Q. Have there ever been instances in Sure. ·8 which you didn't realize you had been deceived ·9 until some time later? 10 11 12 A. I can't think of any. I mean, normally -- I can't think of any. Q. But you agree with me that there's 13 typically a period -- if you're deceived, it 14 takes time before you realize you've been 15 deceived; correct? 16 MR. PETROCELLI: Improper 17 hypothetical, lacks foundation, improper 18 opinion testimony. 19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I really can't 20 answer a question like that. 21 deceived -- I can't even -- I'd have to 22 think about even being deceived, first of 23 all. 24 start thinking about timing. 25 I mean, And then after that, I'd have to MR. FORGE: Can we have Tab 65, 208 Page 188 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 358 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 359 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 and 79. ·2 ·3 ·4 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump THE WITNESS: Jason, how about we take a break at two for a while and -BY MR. FORGE: ·5 Q. What time is it, Mr. Trump? ·6 A. It's now about 20 to two. ·7 minutes; okay? ·8 Q. No problem. ·9 A. We'll come back and finish it up. 10 So in 20 All right. 11 MR. FORGE: I'm handing you, Dan, a 12 disc of a video that I'm going to play for 13 Mr. Trump. 14 video clip will be Exhibit 488. 15 16 17 18 19 We're going to mark -- the (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 488, Not Admitted, marked for identification.) BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, you mentioned a few times today about the students not complaining; right? 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. To you. 22 23 24 25 To me. MR. PETROCELLI: Are you going to tell us what's on here? BY MR. FORGE: Q. You have appeared, at least Page 189 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 359 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 360 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump telephonically, on a show This Week; correct? ·2 A. This Week. ·3 Q. I think that's the name of the show. ·4 A. With George Stephanopoulos? ·5 Q. It might have been. ·6 A. You mean recently? ·7 Q. Yes, recently. ·8 A. Yes. ·9 Q. Let me just play you what is 10 Exhibit -- 11 12 Okay. MR. PETROCELLI: play -- 13 THE WITNESS: 14 MR. PETROCELLI: 15 Let's play -- MR. FORGE: 17 MR. PETROCELLI: 19 Tell us what the date is. 16 18 Jason, before you What's that? Do you know the date? MR. FORGE: Yeah. Let me make sure. 20 Actually, let's just use -- instead of the 21 video, let's just use the written portion. 22 I think that will be easier. 23 this 488. 24 MR. PETROCELLI: 25 489 and I'll keep the video? Let's make Can you make that Page 190 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 360 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 361 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 MR. FORGE: We'll come back to 488. ·2 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 489, No Bates ·3 numbers, Transcript of Videotape, marked ·4 for identification.) ·5 MR. PETROCELLI: ·6 MR. FORGE: ·7 10 11 I think there should be one. ·8 ·9 Looking for a date. MR. PETROCELLI: It's a very long interview. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Okay. Mr. Trump, if you could, 12 please, turn to about the sixth page of this 13 transcript. 14 A. About? 15 Q. I believe it is the sixth page. 16 A. I don't know. 17 on here. One, two, three, four, five -- 18 19 You have no markings MR. PETROCELLI: Looks like it's three months ago. 20 THE WITNESS: 21 BY MR. FORGE: 22 Q. Okay. -- five. I'm on six. Do you see, in the middle of 23 this page, there's a reference to your book, The 24 America We Deserve? 25 A. No. Page 191 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 361 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 362 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Q. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Okay. You want to just hand it to me and I'll get you to the right page? ·3 MR. PETROCELLI: ·4 "Karl: Is it right here, Okay"? ·5 MR. FORGE: ·6 MR. PETROCELLI: ·7 (Witness peruses the exhibit.) ·8 Yes. (Indicating.) BY MR. FORGE: ·9 Q. And this is when Jon Karl is asking 10 you about your past praise for certain 11 individuals. 12 past praise of Jeb Bush, of whom you said, "He is 13 exactly the kind of political leader this country 14 needs now." The first one he mentions is your 15 A. When was this? 16 Q. This is this year. What year was this? I'm sorry. 17 interview is this year. 18 to is from years back -- from years past. This The quote he's referring 19 A. Oh, that's right. 20 Q. "He is exactly the kind of political Okay. Fine. 21 leader this country needs now and we very much 22 need in the future" -- 23 24 25 A. When was the quote? Q. We'll get to that. How many years ago? Page 192 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 362 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 363 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 "He's bright, tough and principled." ·2 And then Mr. Karl goes on to say, ·3 "And not just Jeb Bush. ·4 said, just in 2012" -- ·5 Of Hillary Clinton you MR. PETROCELLI: ·6 question? ·7 of this? What's -- what's the relevance ·8 MR. FORGE: ·9 MR. PETROCELLI: 10 11 Can I ask a I'll get to it. Don't answer any questions about this. BY MR. FORGE: 12 Q. "She's a terrific person, works hard 13 and I think she does a good job. 14 Pataki you said was the most underrated guy in 15 American politics. 16 very effective governor, Texas is lucky to have 17 him." 18 And George Rick Perry you said was a And then Mr. Karl went on to say, 19 "Now you've declared Hillary the worst secretary 20 of state ever, Pataki the worst governor of New 21 York ever and you said Rick Perry's too dumb 22 maybe to be in the debate." 23 And your response to all that was, 24 "The very simple answer to that; I was a 25 businessman all my life. I have made a Page 193 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 363 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 364 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 tremendous fortune. ·2 politicians. ·3 I would deal with them. ·4 going to say bad things about people because I ·5 needed their support to get projects done. ·6 needed their support for lots of things -- or I ·7 may have needed their support, put another way. ·8 I mean, you're not going to say horrible things ·9 and then go in a year later and say, listen, can 10 I have your support for this project or this 11 development or this business? 12 about almost everybody. 13 people because I was a smart businessman. 14 built a tremendous company and I did that based 15 on relationships." 16 I had to deal with And I would contribute to them and And certainly I'm not I So I say nice And I contributed to I have Is that response you gave an 17 accurate explanation for why you had said nice 18 things about these folks in the past and now are 19 expressing different views? 20 THE WITNESS: 21 have to answer this. 22 far off base -- 23 24 25 I don't think I should I think this is so MR. PETROCELLI: I'll instruct you not to answer the question. THE WITNESS: It's just a Page 194 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 364 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 365 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump filibuster. That's all you're doing. ·2 BY MR. FORGE: ·3 Q. It's not a filibuster. ·4 A. It's a filibuster. ·5 ·6 What does this have to do with what you're doing here? Q. What I'm getting at is, you said, in ·7 your explanation here, that you had a business ·8 reason for complimenting these folks in the past; ·9 correct? 10 11 MR. PETROCELLI: him -- 12 13 THE WITNESS: I don't think I should respond to this guy. 14 15 MR. PETROCELLI: Time out. Time out. 16 THE WITNESS: 17 MR. PETROCELLI: 18 I'm instructing Just a -I don't think it has anything remotely to do with the case. 19 THE WITNESS: Let's just go to court 20 and get this case -- I'm dying to go to 21 court on this case. 22 23 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, you've referenced a 24 number of times your belief that students had 25 praise for Trump University; correct? Page 195 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 365 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 366 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: ·5 ·6 You can answer that question. ·3 ·4 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump THE WITNESS: Yeah, they have great praise for Trump University. BY MR. FORGE: Q. And you had yourself praised people ·7 in the past because you felt that was necessary ·8 to get their help; correct? ·9 10 THE WITNESS: Supposed to answer that question? 11 MR. PETROCELLI: No, you don't have 12 to answer. 13 Exhibit 489, you're not allowed to answer 14 it. 15 BY MR. FORGE: 16 Q. If it has anything to do with Whether it has to do with 489 or 17 not, you have given praise to people in the past 18 because you thought you might need their help; 19 correct? 20 A. 21 22 If it doesn't have to do with this, that's a different question, I think. MR. PETROCELLI: Unrelated to 23 Exhibit 489, if you can answer the 24 question. 25 The question is vague and ambiguous. Page 196 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 366 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 367 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump BY MR. FORGE: ·2 Q. Have you given praise to people in ·3 the past because you felt you might need their ·4 help for a deal in the future? ·5 MR. PETROCELLI: ·6 And it's incomplete. ·7 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think that ·8 generally I like to be as positive about ·9 people as I can. 10 BY MR. FORGE: 11 Q. And -- 12 A. Generally I like to. 13 Q. And have you given praise for that 14 reason even when you didn't sincerely believe the 15 praise? 16 MR. PETROCELLI: 17 vague, ambiguous and overbroad. 18 THE WITNESS: 19 20 The question's instance? Do you have a specific And I'll give you an answer. BY MR. FORGE: 21 Q. Yeah, I do. 22 A. Not this. 23 Q. These are your words, Mr. Trump. 24 A. Okay. 25 world. It's ridiculous -- But it's a whole different So get a ruling from the judge. It's all Page 197 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 367 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 368 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 right. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Go get a ruling from the judge. Q. You asked me for a specific ·3 instance. ·4 don't need a specific instance, then just answer ·5 the question without it. ·6 ·7 ·8 I'm willing to give you one. A. If you Give me an instance that pertains to what we're talking about. Q. What I'm asking you is, have you in ·9 the past given praise to someone because you may 10 need their help for a deal -- 11 12 13 14 15 MR. PETROCELLI: He -- BY MR. FORGE: Q. -- even though you did not sincerely believe the praise you gave them? A. First of all, that's totally 16 different from our lawsuit. 17 totally different thing. 18 tremendous praise -- many of them have given 19 tremendous praise for the course. 20 totally different from what you're talking about. 21 Okay. That's a These people have given So that's And almost everyone had signed a 22 document, et cetera, et cetera. 23 forward to having this case go to court. 24 been waiting for it for a long time. 25 Q. I so look I've Well, you're delaying this Page 198 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 368 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 369 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump deposition, so -- ·2 A. I don't mind delaying it. I'm just ·3 telling you, I look forward to having it in ·4 court. ·5 (Simultaneous cross-talk.) ·6 MR. PETROCELLI: ·7 answered this question. ·8 MR. FORGE: ·9 10 He's already No, Dan, the question was, as posed to Mr. Trump, did you -BY MR. FORGE: 11 Q. Have you in the past given praise to 12 someone because you thought you may need their 13 help in business later on, even though you didn't 14 sincerely believe the praise you were giving 15 them? 16 17 MR. PETROCELLI: come to mind? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Do any situations THE WITNESS: No situation comes to mind, no. BY MR. FORGE: Q. And you won't answer the question as pertaining to Jeb Bush? A. This is politics. MR. PETROCELLI: I won't allow him to answer the question. Page 199 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 369 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 370 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 THE WITNESS: BY MR. FORGE: Q. You will not -- ·4 ·5 ·6 ·7 ·8 MR. PETROCELLI: 11 12 BY MR. FORGE: Q. And you will not answer the question as to Hillary Clinton? MR. PETROCELLI: 15 16 Q. And you will not answer the question as to George Pataki? MR. PETROCELLI: 19 20 21 22 Correct. BY MR. FORGE: Q. And you will not answer the question as to Rick Perry? 17 18 Correct. BY MR. FORGE: 13 14 I've instructed him -- ·9 10 It's politics. MR. PETROCELLI: Correct. BY MR. FORGE: Q. So you don't know if you've done that in the past? A. instance. You'd have to give me a specific I mean, you're asking -- 23 Q. Other than the four you gave -- 24 A. No. 25 No. You would have to give me a specific instance, not this. Page 200 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 370 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 371 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 Q. I'm giving you a specific instance. ·2 A. Having to do with -- ·3 MR. PETROCELLI: ·4 THE WITNESS: -- business. ·5 to do with business. ·6 instance. ·7 BY MR. FORGE: ·8 Q. I instructed him -Having Give me a business Mr. Trump, you referred to ·9 Mr. Pataki as the most underrated guy in American 10 politics -- 11 12 13 MR. PETROCELLI: BY MR. FORGE: Q. 14 -- correct? MR. PETROCELLI: 15 the question. 16 answer. Please don't answer I've instructed you not to 17 THE WITNESS: 18 MR. PETROCELLI: 19 Time out. Fine. Please move on, Jason. 20 MR. FORGE: 21 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 490, No Bates Let's mark this as 490. 22 numbers, The America We Deserve Excerpt, 23 marked for identification.) 24 25 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Referencing your book The America We Page 201 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 371 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 372 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 Deserve, Mr. Trump, does Exhibit 490 appear to be ·2 an accurate copy of portions of that book? ·3 A. Yes. ·4 Q. If you look at the -- among other ·5 things in this book, you take the education ·6 industry to task; correct? ·7 A. I take what? ·8 Q. The education industry to task; ·9 correct? 10 A. I wrote it 16 years ago. So, you 11 know, I -- I talk about education, I think, but I 12 wrote it a long time ago. 13 14 Q. Okay. If you look at the second page of the exhibit itself, which is -- 15 A. Page 2? 16 Q. Yes. 17 It's page 156 of the e-book version 18 of this. 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. You wrote -- you wrote this book; 21 right? 22 A. Yeah, I did. 23 Q. "The education industry is 24 delivering less for more money and claiming no 25 ground has been lost. It's fraud, pure and Page 202 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 372 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 373 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 simple." ·2 A. Yes. ·3 Q. So would you agree that when ·4 educators deliver less than promised for more ·5 money and claim they're doing something great, ·6 it's fraud, pure and simple? ·7 MR. PETROCELLI: Objection; calls ·8 for improper opinion testimony, incomplete ·9 hypothetical. 10 and ambiguous. 11 12 It lacks foundation. Vague You can answer subject to those objections. 13 THE WITNESS: 14 MR. PETROCELLI: The education -Let the record 15 reflect that again you presented him with 16 page 156 and -- 17 THE WITNESS: 18 MR. PETROCELLI: 19 I'd really --- there's no context for that statement. 20 THE WITNESS: I'd like to read the 21 entire chapter before I answer that 22 question. 23 24 25 Do you have the rest of it? BY MR. FORGE: Q. So without reading the entire chapter of your own book, you can't answer the Page 203 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 373 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 374 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 question as to whether or not, when educators ·2 deliver less than promised for more money and ·3 claim they're doing something great, it's fraud, ·4 pure and simple? ·5 MR. PETROCELLI: You can answer that ·6 question, whether or not you need to read ·7 the whole chapter in order to answer the ·8 question. ·9 THE WITNESS: 10 no, it's not fraud. 11 BY MR. FORGE: 12 Q. 13 14 I would say it's -- Okay. It's not fraud. So this statement in your book is not accurate? 15 A. It's trying to get a point across. 16 Q. So it's not accurate? 17 A. It's not accurate, yes. 18 to get a point across. 19 20 It's trying Q. Using an inaccurate -- using an inaccurate statement -- 21 A. I was trying to get a point across. 22 I'm trying to -- education's very important to 23 me. 24 25 I'm trying to get a point across. Q. And -MR. PETROCELLI: Again -Page 204 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 374 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 375 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump BY MR. FORGE: Q. -- the point you're trying to get across was what? ·4 A. That education has gotten out of ·5 control and that ideally something has to be done ·6 about it. ·7 ·8 Q. So the fact that it was fraud, pure and simple, was just thrown in there? ·9 A. No. It's just I'm trying to make a 10 point. 11 trying to make a point as strongly as possible. 12 13 14 And it's not fraud, but it's -- I'm Q. Well, one of the keys to the way you promote is hyperbole; correct? A. Sometimes. Not all the time. But, 15 you know, in the real estate world, people talk 16 about -- you know, you want to talk about your 17 projects in a positive manner, absolutely. 18 Q. Not just a positive manner. 19 believe in playing to people's fantasies; 20 correct? 21 MR. PETROCELLI: You Question is vague 22 and ambiguous, calls for improper opinion 23 testimony. 24 25 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Correct? You believe in playing Page 205 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 375 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 376 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 people's fantasies in terms of promotion; ·2 correct? ·3 A. I believe in playing to people's ·4 desires, where they want to rent an apartment or ·5 buy an apartment or rent office space. ·6 never seen anybody say, gee, my building's doing ·7 terribly, why don't you rent an apartment. ·8 Q. Again, I'm asking a very specific ·9 question. 10 of a direct answer. I would just appreciate your courtesy 11 12 I've MR. PETROCELLI: answer it. 13 BY MR. FORGE: 14 Q. If you're able to You may not be able to. When promoting things, you believe 15 it's important to play to people's fantasies; 16 correct? 17 18 19 MR. PETROCELLI: The question is vague and ambiguous. THE WITNESS: I -- I guess it's -- 20 but, you know, I see nothing wrong. 21 you want to -- life, you want to -- you 22 want to play to something that's positive 23 and beautiful. 24 "fantasy" if you want. 25 word "fantasy," but, sure, you want to play Sure, And you can use the word Or I could use the Page 206 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 376 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 377 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 to something that's beautiful and good and ·2 successful. ·3 ·4 BY MR. FORGE: Q. And you believe in the concept that ·5 you've referred to as innocent exaggeration; ·6 correct? ·7 ·8 MR. PETROCELLI: Vague and ambiguous. ·9 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I mean, fine. 10 Innocent exaggeration to -- I mean, I 11 guess. 12 same thing. 13 14 15 16 BY MR. FORGE: Q. 19 What's the difference between innocent exaggeration and a guilty exaggeration? A. 17 18 Every -- I think everybody says the I think guilty -MR. PETROCELLI: Vague and ambiguous. BY MR. FORGE: 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. I would say -- 22 MR. PETROCELLI: 23 THE WITNESS: Lacks foundation. I would say, 24 innocent -- for instance, if you walk in 25 and you're not feeling well, and I say Page 207 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 377 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 378 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 you're looking good, Jason, it makes you ·2 feel better. ·3 innocent exaggeration. ·4 ·5 Nobody's hurt. That's BY MR. FORGE: Q. Is it innocent exaggeration to say ·6 to a prospective student, this person is an ·7 expert in real estate when the person is not ·8 really an expert in real estate? ·9 A. 10 11 12 I don't know any of those -MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me. BY MR. FORGE: Q. 13 I'm just asking -MR. PETROCELLI: Calls for improper 14 opinion testimony, lacks foundation and is 15 vague and ambiguous. 16 17 BY MR. FORGE: Q. I'm just asking you if that would be 18 an example of an innocent exaggeration or would 19 that be a guilty exaggeration? 20 21 MR. PETROCELLI: objections. 22 THE WITNESS: 23 MR. PETROCELLI: 24 25 Again, the same I don't know if -If you're able to answer -THE WITNESS: I'm not able to -Page 208 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 378 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 379 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 MR. PETROCELLI: -- you can; if ·2 you're not able to answer the question, you ·3 can tell Mr. Forge. ·4 objections to it. ·5 ·6 ·7 ·8 THE WITNESS: I've made my You'd have to give me specific examples. BY MR. FORGE: Q. So just that information, telling a ·9 prospective student that a particular instructor 10 is an expert in real estate, when, in fact, the 11 person is not an expert in real estate, that is 12 not enough information for you to conclude -- 13 A. That is not -- 14 Q. -- whether or not -- 15 A. -- no. 16 Q. Okay. 17 So that might be okay? MR. PETROCELLI: Time out. Time 18 out. 19 the last question, the same objections as 20 previously asserted, and also to this 21 question. 22 I am going to pose an objection to BY MR. FORGE: 23 Q. So in your book, that might be okay? 24 A. It depends on what materials they're 25 working from -Page 209 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 379 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 380 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 MR. PETROCELLI: ·2 In my [sic] book, I don't know what ·3 that means. ·4 ambiguous. ·5 ·6 ·7 ·8 I object to that on vague and BY MR. FORGE: Q. Do you consider that to be potentially an acceptable -A. ·9 10 Excuse me. It depends on the materials -MR. PETROCELLI: Improper opinion testimony, vague and ambiguous. 11 THE WITNESS: The instructors have 12 great materials to work with. 13 on the materials they use. 14 the books they've been given. 15 on a lot of other information. 16 It depends It depends on It depends BY MR. FORGE: 17 Q. So construct for me a scenario -- 18 A. And we did have a lot of very good 19 instructors. 20 who's maybe not so good or -- 21 22 23 24 25 Q. I mean, you can always find someone Can you name for me one good live events instructor? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection; asked and answered. THE WITNESS: I don't know the Page 210 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 380 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 381 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 ·4 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump instructors. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Do you know a single good live events instructor? ·5 ·6 ·7 MR. PETROCELLI: BY MR. FORGE: Q. ·8 ·9 Do you? THE WITNESS: Am I supposed to answer that? 10 11 Asked and answered. MR. PETROCELLI: You've answered it many times. 12 THE WITNESS: 13 MR. PETROCELLI: 14 THE WITNESS: All I can say is -Answer it again. All I can say is it's 15 many years ago. 16 complaints -- until this whole thing 17 started, I've had very, very few complains. 18 And I always have complaints if there's a 19 problem with something I'm involved in. 20 I've had very, very few complaints over the 21 years having to do with this. 22 BY MR. FORGE: 23 Q. 24 25 I've had very, very few Mr. Trump, I'm just asking you to back up your own words. You said, we -- MR. PETROCELLI: Time out. Page 211 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 381 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 382 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump BY MR. FORGE: Q. -- had many good instructors. I'm ·3 asking you if you can identify a single good live ·4 events instructor. ·5 MR. PETROCELLI: ·6 I'm going to object to your Time out. ·7 statement that "I'm just asking you to back ·8 up your own words." It's inappropriate. ·9 It's argumentative. I would ask you not to 10 editorialize in your questions. 11 question is vague and ambiguous and lacks 12 foundation. 13 You can answer. 14 THE WITNESS: The If we didn't have good 15 instructors, I would have been inundated 16 with phone calls from -- 17 18 BY MR. FORGE: Q. I'm not asking you to draw any 19 inferences. 20 today, the man who controlled 92 percent of this 21 enterprise, can you identify a single good live 22 events instructor? 23 I'm asking you, as you sit here MR. PETROCELLI: Object to the 24 reference to the word "enterprise." 25 not aware that it was called an enterprise. I'm Page 212 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 382 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 383 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Vague and ambiguous and it's argumentative. ·2 If you're able to answer -- ·3 THE WITNESS: ·4 MR. PETROCELLI: ·5 ·8 ·9 THE WITNESS: history. Talking about ancient Too many years ago. BY MR. FORGE: Q. So it's a no? 10 MR. PETROCELLI: 11 THE WITNESS: 12 -- subject to the objections, you can. ·6 ·7 Too many years ago. Same objections. Too many years ago. BY MR. FORGE: 13 Q. No, because it's too many years ago? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 MR. FORGE: Tab 60. BY MR. FORGE: Q. How are we doing with your time, Mr. Trump? A. We're there. Let's go out and we'll be back 15, 20 minutes. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record at 1:58 p.m. 23 (Recess from the record.) 24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 25 We are going back on the record at 2:24 p.m. Page 213 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 383 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 384 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. FORGE: Just so the record is ·2 clear before we start, Mr. Trump has told ·3 us that he has to leave by 5 o'clock today. ·4 We are not going to try to interfere with ·5 him leaving. ·6 I've indicated to counsel and ·7 Mr. Trump that I am very confident I won't ·8 be done with all the questioning by then, ·9 but I understand Mr. Trump has a very 10 important engagement and we'll take up at a 11 later date the remaining time for 12 Mr. Trump's deposition. 13 MR. PETROCELLI: I told you that I 14 would address that at a later date. 15 reserving my rights. 16 able to work it out. I'm I'm sure we'll be 17 MR. FORGE: 18 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 491, No Bates Let's mark this as 491. 19 numbers, The Art of the Deal Excerpt, 20 marked for identification.) 21 22 23 THE WITNESS: My favorite of all the books. BY MR. FORGE: 24 Q. Is this your favorite? 25 A. Yes. It's good. Page 214 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 384 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 385 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Q. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Mr. Trump, you did author a book called The Art of the Deal; correct? ·3 A. Yes. ·4 Q. Does Exhibit 491 appear to be an ·5 accurate copy of the cover and a couple pages ·6 from it? ·7 A. Yes. ·8 Q. If you look at page 15 of your book, ·9 this is an excerpt, and the paragraph that 10 begins -- the portion that begins, "The final key 11 to the way I promote is bravado." 12 A. Which one is that? 13 Q. It's on the left-hand side. 14 A. Left. 15 Q. It's the first paragraph that begins 16 on that page. Where is that? Okay. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. It begins, "The final key to the way 19 I promote is bravado." 20 another paragraph -- another short paragraph 21 beneath that one. 22 23 Then it continues with I'll give you a chance to read those two. 24 A. That's okay. 25 Q. Okay. Does that -- does that Page 215 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 385 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 386 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 accurately describe your thoughts on promotion ·2 and bravado? ·3 A. ·4 ·5 MR. PETROCELLI: ·8 Vague and ambiguous. ·6 ·7 Sure. THE WITNESS: Sure. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, you never reviewed the ·9 scripts that were provided to the live events 10 instructors, did you, sir? 11 A. I don't believe so, no. 12 Q. Did you -- did you ever instruct 13 Mr. Sexton to deny the existence of those 14 scripts? 15 A. No. Scripts? 16 know about scripts. 17 with the scripts. 18 19 20 I don't even I'm not -- I'm not familiar MR. FORGE: and 29, please. No. Can I have Tab 27, 28 Mark this as Exhibit 492. (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 492, Bates Nos. 21 TU154665 through 702, E-mail dated 4/14/09 22 from Sexton to Harris with attachments, 23 marked for identification.) 24 25 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, I've placed in front of Page 216 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 386 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 387 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 you a document marked as Exhibit 492. ·2 represent to you that is a document that was ·3 produced by you and/or Trump University in the ·4 course of the litigation in the Makaeff case. ·5 ·6 MR. PETROCELLI: I'll This is -- time out again. ·7 I'm objecting to the reference that ·8 he had produced it, but you can ask your ·9 questions. 10 BY MR. FORGE: 11 Q. 12 It says, "TU" at the bottom. This is a document that begins at TU154665, and it ends at TU154702. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. You see that the text of the e-mail 15 on the first page begins with the statement, 16 "Gentlemen, attached is the final script for the 17 new PPT presentation." 18 Do you see that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And this e-mail is from Michael 21 Sexton to James Harris, Steve Goff, Scott 22 Leitzell, and it copies others. 23 24 25 You don't know who James Harris, Steve Goff or Scott Leitzell are, do you? A. I've heard the names, but I don't Page 217 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 387 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 388 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump really know who they are. Q. If you can turn to page 14 -- I'm sorry -- 154678. ·4 A. Okay. ·5 Q. First of all, are you aware that ·6 Mr. Sexton has admitted that he provided this ·7 script for instructors to use? ·8 ·9 A. I didn't know -- I don't think I've ever seen the script. 10 Q. On this page, if you look up near -- 11 from the bottom, the paragraph that begins, "I 12 remember one" -- "I remember one, two [sic] time 13 Mr. Trump said to us over dinner -- he said, 14 'Real estate is the only market that, when 15 there's a sale going on, people run from the 16 store. You don't want to run from the store'." 17 18 19 20 Do you see that? A. though. Q. I don't know exactly what it means, Yeah. Are you aware that Mr. Sexton has 21 acknowledged that this statement here -- that he 22 was setting the script to be used by people who 23 did not actually have dinner with you? 24 25 A. No, I don't -- I don't know anything about the script. I didn't -- I've never heard Page 218 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 388 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 389 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump of a script, per se. Q. And this -- you recognize this ·3 language as similar to the language that we went ·4 over with Joe Martin earlier; correct? ·5 ·6 ·7 ·8 MR. PETROCELLI: Vague and ambiguous. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Do you remember that portion of the ·9 Gerald Martin testimony when you said that, no, 10 it wasn't true, I didn't have dinner with him? 11 A. Oh, yeah. 12 Q. Were you aware -- 13 A. I didn't have dinner with him, no. 14 Q. Were you aware that -- 15 A. I don't think, but I didn't have 16 17 Yeah. Okay. dinner with him. Q. -- that that portion of his 18 presentation to students had originated with 19 Michael Sexton? 20 21 MR. PETROCELLI: in evidence, lacks foundation. 22 23 24 25 Assumes facts not THE WITNESS: What does that mean? Say it again. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Were you aware that that false Page 219 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 389 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 390 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 anecdote about having dinner with you and during ·2 the dinner you conveyed some words about real ·3 estate -- that that false anecdote came from ·4 Michael Sexton? ·5 A. No, I was not. ·6 MR. PETROCELLI: ·7 THE WITNESS: ·8 ·9 Same objections. No. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Are you aware that Mr. Sexton in his 10 sworn testimony falsely denied providing scripts 11 to instructors? 12 MR. PETROCELLI: 13 "falsely denied"? 14 MR. FORGE: 15 MR. PETROCELLI: 16 21 22 The question lacks Are you saying he admitted to having falsely denied? 19 20 Yes, falsely denied. foundation and is argumentative. 17 18 Did you say MR. FORGE: Let me take it step by step. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Are you aware that in Mr. Sexton's 23 testimony in the Makaeff case, as elicited by 24 your own counsel, he denied sending scripts to 25 instructors? Page 220 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 390 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 391 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 A. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump I'm not aware of that, no. I don't know if this is a script, actually. ·3 Q. Do you see the first -- ·4 A. The word "script" -- ·5 MR. PETROCELLI: ·6 The question lacks foundation. ·7 You've indicated that you've not Time out. ·8 seen this document before. ·9 THE WITNESS: 10 MR. PETROCELLI: 11 to speculate about it. 12 13 14 17 18 I have not -- There's no reason BY MR. FORGE: Q. On the first page, the attachment is Trump Creative C script, dash, final. 15 16 Right. Do you see that? A. Script is something, I think, different than this. Q. Do you see the first sentence says, 19 "Gentlemen, attached is the final script for the 20 new PPT presentation"? 21 A. Yeah, I know they call it a script. 22 I would not view this as a script. 23 it as something else, but go ahead. 24 25 Q. I would use So let me back up then. Are you aware of Mr. Sexton's Page 221 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 391 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 392 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 testimony in the Makaeff case, as elicited by ·2 your lawyer, in which Mr. Sexton denied providing ·3 a script to instructors? ·4 A. Which lawyer is that? ·5 Q. David Schneider. ·6 ·7 MR. PETROCELLI: if you're aware of that testimony. ·8 ·9 10 11 THE WITNESS: Q. Are you aware that Mr. Sexton later admitted that that testimony was false? MR. PETROCELLI: Assumes facts not in evidence. 14 15 No, I'm not. BY MR. FORGE: 12 13 He's simply asking THE WITNESS: I know nothing about that. 16 MR. FORGE: 17 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 493, No Bates Let's make this 493. 18 numbers, Transcript Excerpt, marked for 19 identification.) 20 21 BY MR. FORGE: Q. If you want to refer back to 22 Exhibit 492, you can, Mr. Trump. 23 it's important, but obviously that's up to you. 24 25 I don't think I'm going to direct your attention -- Exhibit 493 contains excerpts from Page 222 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 392 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 393 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 Mr. Sexton's testimony in this case, the Cohen ·2 case. ·3 his testimony. ·4 A. Okay. ·5 Q. And I'll represent to you that this If you could, please, turn to page 261 of ·6 question -- these questions are referring to that ·7 same script that you had in your hand, which is ·8 Exhibit 492. ·9 A. Okay. 10 Q. And the question posed to him was: 11 "QUESTION: You knew when you were 12 sending" -- 13 A. Where is that? 14 Q. Page 2. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Line 6: 17 "QUESTION: You knew -- I see. You knew when you were 18 sending the script that you were sending it 19 to individuals that had not, in fact, had 20 dinner with Mr. Trump; correct? 21 "ANSWER: That's correct. 22 "QUESTION: And you knew that 23 Mr. Trump had not said anything to them 24 over dinner; correct? 25 "ANSWER: That's correct." Page 223 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 393 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 394 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 Sending a script to instructors that ·2 contains a misrepresentation about having had ·3 dinner with you and discussed real estate with ·4 you over dinner, do you believe, Mr. Trump, that ·5 set a good example or a bad example for the ·6 instructors? ·7 A. Well, I think it's hyperbole ·8 probably. ·9 particularly important, but I think it's 10 hyperbole. And, I mean, I think it's not 11 MR. PETROCELLI: I'm going to object 12 to the question as calling for improper 13 opinion testimony, and it's vague and 14 ambiguous. 15 16 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Is that the kind of thing you 17 consider to be an innocent exaggeration? 18 MR. PETROCELLI: 19 objections. 20 21 Same -- same THE WITNESS: Yes. I'd say that's an innocent exaggeration, yes. 22 BY MR. FORGE: 23 Q. So if the instructors are trying to 24 basically convince the students that they have a 25 close relationship with you and that's -- that's Page 224 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 394 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 395 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 part of the pitch, is that they have such a close ·2 relationship with you, that you actually have ·3 dinner and talk real estate with them, that, you ·4 believe, is innocent exaggeration? ·5 MR. PETROCELLI: ·6 THE WITNESS: Same objections. I would say it's ·7 hyperbole. ·8 it's -- yeah, I think that's probably the ·9 word for it. 10 with me and they were with me and all of 11 that stuff. 12 think it's hyperbole. 13 14 You know, I would really say A lot of people say they met It happens all the time. I BY MR. FORGE: Q. But in this context of talking to 15 prospective students, people might pay to be 16 instructed by these folks, you consider that to 17 be innocent exaggeration? 18 MR. PETROCELLI: 19 THE WITNESS: Same objections. I don't know. People 20 love the courses, so I just don't know. 21 But I would say it's innocent hyperbole, 22 yes. 23 24 25 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Hyperbole in this context is the same thing as saying something is not accurate; Page 225 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 395 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 396 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump right? ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: ·3 THE WITNESS: Same objections. It depends on how ·4 you're talking about accurate. ·5 say that a thing like that's pretty ·6 innocent. ·7 it. ·8 I can see a lot of people doing BY MR. FORGE: ·9 10 But I would Q. But, again, you're talking about something -- something's false? 11 MR. PETROCELLI: 12 THE WITNESS: Same objections. Well, I didn't have 13 dinner with him, but I can see it being 14 hyperbole. 15 that somebody would say. 16 BY MR. FORGE: 17 Q. 18 again -- 19 A. 20 21 I can see it being something But hyperbole in this context -- You might say tonight that we had -(Reporter seeks clarification.) Q. It would be false for me to say that 22 you and I had breakfast together this morning; 23 right? 24 25 A. Yes, it's sort of false. It would depend on how you meant it, how you said it, but, Page 226 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 396 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 397 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 yeah, it would be false. ·2 together. We sort of had lunch ·3 Q. Is there any way I could say -- ·4 A. I think it's a statement of ·5 hyperbole. ·6 is how well they taught. ·7 Q. It's not a big deal. The big thing But, again, I'm focusing on this -- ·8 these are false statements that Mr. Sexton -- ·9 this is a false statement, that these folks had 10 dinner with you when they did not; correct? 11 A. 12 I think it is. 13 important thing is the level of instruction. 14 think it's innocent hyperbole. 15 to make -- I don't know. 16 dinner with him, but I think it's innocent 17 hyperbole. 18 Q. I think it's hyperbole. That's what I think it's -- I think the Maybe he's trying But I didn't have So did you -- were you okay with 19 this type of false statement being made to 20 students? 21 22 MR. PETROCELLI: Assumes facts not in evidence. 23 24 I He testified he had no knowledge of it. 25 Page 227 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 397 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 398 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump BY MR. FORGE: ·2 Q. Is this consistent -- ·3 A. As I said about five times, I didn't ·4 know about it. ·5 Q. ·6 ·7 Understood. But were you -- did you approve this type of false statement being made to students? ·8 A. ·9 but, no. 10 Q. No. Nobody ever asked me about it, Did you convey to Michael Sexton 11 that it would be okay to engage in this type of 12 false representation to students? 13 14 15 A. No, but I don't remember ever having even talked to him about something like this. Q. That's because you don't know what 16 representations Mr. Sexton was encouraging people 17 to make; correct? 18 A. I don't. 19 Q. You don't know anything that any of I don't. 20 the live events instructors said to the students; 21 correct? 22 MR. PETROCELLI: 23 THE WITNESS: 24 in the -- in the classes. 25 Asked and answered. No, I wasn't involved MR. PETROCELLI: Question's also Page 228 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 398 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 399 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump overbroad. ·2 MR. FORGE: ·3 Let me have Tab 33. Mark this as 494, please. ·4 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 494, Bates No. ·5 TU71487, Madoff Teaches Lessons in Due ·6 Diligence, marked for identification.) ·7 BY MR. FORGE: ·8 Q. Mr. Trump, does this appear -- this ·9 Exhibit 494 appear to be a true and accurate copy 10 of a blog entry by you entitled, "Madoff Teaches 11 Lessons in Due Diligence"? 12 13 A. be. I don't remember it, but it could A blog entry. Not a book; right? 14 Q. No. 15 A. I do a lot of entries. 16 Q. This is a document that was produced 17 by Trump University and/or you. 18 for sure where it appeared. I can't tell you 19 My first question for you -- 20 MR. PETROCELLI: 21 22 appeared anywhere. BY MR. FORGE: 23 24 25 Or even if it Q. If this appeared anywhere, do you A. I don't know. know? I don't know. I Page 229 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 399 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 400 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 mean, it sounds like something I might be saying. ·2 I just don't know what it is. ·3 ·4 Q. And the title of this is "Madoff Teaches Lessons in Due Diligence"; right? ·5 A. Yes. ·6 Q. What diligence on Mr. Sexton did you ·7 personally do, Mr. Trump? ·8 A. It's so many years ago. He was ·9 highly recommended by a number of people. 10 some references. 11 13 -- He had How many years ago is that, 12, 12 Q. It's 12, 13, 11. 13 A. Yeah, it's like 12, 13 years ago. 14 We did due diligence on him. 15 of my officials do -- I'll have to go and check 16 if I can find it, but I had due diligence -- 17 18 19 Q. I think I had one When you say you'd have to go and check, what would you go and check? A. I don't know. I'd check files. 20 Whatever I could check I'd check. 21 but I think -- I think I had one of my attorneys 22 do due diligence. I don't know, It's so many years ago -- 23 Q. Understood. 24 A. It's a long time ago. 25 Q. What attorney do you believe may Page 230 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 400 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 401 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump have done due diligence on him? ·2 A. It could have been -- not an ·3 attorney. ·4 officer, Alan Weisselberg. ·5 I can ask a couple of people and see. ·6 again, it's 13 years ago. ·7 13 years ago. ·8 Q. Could have been my chief financial It could have been -But, I think it's more than So it's a long time ago. Other than asking people, is there ·9 any other source of information you could consult 10 to answer that question? 11 A. Not that I can think. Most of that 12 I find, when you hire people, is about 13 references. 14 Q. You mentioned that he was highly 15 recommended by a number of people. 16 any of those people? 17 18 A. No, I can't. Can you name Not after 13 years, I can't. 19 MR. FORGE: 20 THE WITNESS: 21 MR. FORGE: 22 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 495, No Bates Tab 34. Now we're moving. Mark this as 495. 23 numbers, Transcript Excerpt, marked for 24 identification.) 25 Page 231 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 401 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 402 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, Exhibit 495 contains ·3 additional excerpts from Mr. Sexton's deposition ·4 in this case. ·5 A. Okay. ·6 Q. If you could, please, turn to ·7 page 121 of the testimony. ·8 A. Line? ·9 Q. Line 20. 10 line 10 of the next page, page 122. 11 (Witness peruses the exhibit.) 12 Q. 13 line 20: 14 15 And all the way through So the question posed to him at "QUESTION: You don't have a background in real estate, do you, sir? 16 "ANSWER: 17 Next question: 18 "QUESTION: I do not, no." And the time you were 19 doing that, you weren't involved in the 20 real estate market in any way, were you? 21 "ANSWER: 22 "QUESTION: 23 No, I was not. You have no education in real estate? 24 "ANSWER: 25 "QUESTION: I do not. No experience investing Page 232 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 402 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 403 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump in real estate" -- ·2 It's muddled back and forth. ·3 "QUESTION: -- for profit? ·4 "ANSWER: ·5 Is all that information from No." ·6 Mr. Sexton consistent with your understanding at ·7 the time that Trump University was operating? ·8 A. I remembered him as a manager and ·9 also as a -- again, it's so many years ago, so 10 I'd have to, I don't know, try to find out. 11 I remember him as a manager and somebody that 12 would be a -- good from the standpoint of putting 13 people together. 14 businesses where people go in and they hire a 15 manager who used to build airplanes, and then 16 he's managing a Ford plant, making cars. 17 so -- 18 Q. 19 20 And, you know, you have many And Understood. But you -- A. -- I don't look at that as important 21 criteria. 22 frankly, he did a very good job. 23 think he did a good job. 24 respected person. 25 But Q. He was a respected guy. I think, A lot of people And he was just a Mr. Trump, again, if you could just Page 233 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 403 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 404 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump answer my question. ·2 A. I'm trying to. ·3 Q. What I'm asking you, is this -- this ·4 information about Mr. Sexton's lack of background ·5 in real estate, is that consistent with your ·6 understanding back when Trump University was ·7 operating? ·8 A. ·9 manager. 10 Q. So that's a yes? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Yes, because he was -- he was a I knew he didn't have much of a background in real estate, yes. 13 Q. Or any background in real estate? 14 A. Or -- yes, I think any background. 15 Just like -- I mean, I could give you examples. 16 I won't waste your time, but many times people 17 get hired -- they build cars and now they're 18 building airplanes. 19 people are competent, they're competent. 20 had a very high reference. You know, there are -And he 21 Q. From somebody you can't remember. 22 A. From somebody -- if I can find it, 23 24 25 I'll let you know. Q. Mr. Trump, you never did anything to certify any of the Trump University mentors, did Page 234 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 404 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 405 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump you? ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: ·3 THE WITNESS: ·4 Question is vague. Me personally? BY MR. FORGE: ·5 Q. Yes. ·6 A. No. ·7 Q. Can we go back to Exhibit 475. ·8 That's the photo spread. ·9 Mr. Trump, looking at that photo 10 spread, which is Exhibit 475, do you know if 11 there are any top Trump certified mentors in that 12 exhibit? 13 A. I can't tell from these pictures, 15 Q. Do you recognize Kerry Lucas in 16 those pictures? 17 A. 14 no. No. 18 MR. FORGE: 19 This is now 496. 20 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 496, No Bates Tab 58, please. 21 numbers, Transcript Excerpt, marked for 22 identification.) 23 24 25 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, I've handed you Exhibit 496, which contains excerpts from the Page 235 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 405 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 406 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 deposition testimony of Kerry Alan Lucas. ·2 could please -- ·3 A. Who is that? ·4 Q. You don't know; right? ·5 A. No. ·6 Q. You don't know who that is. ·7 Okay. If you could, please, direct your ·8 attention to page 48. ·9 right-hand corner. 10 11 If you And that's in that lower Line 17 begins: "QUESTION: So prior to 2009, you did not buy or sell any real estate; right? 12 "ANSWER: 13 "QUESTION: Correct. And the only real estate 14 you managed was renting out the condo you 15 inherited from your mom; is that right? 16 "ANSWER: 17 "QUESTION: Yes. That was the condo 18 located in the retirement community in what 19 city? 20 "ANSWER: Down in Palm Beach 21 Gardens, Florida. 22 "QUESTION: 23 24 25 How much did it rent for generally per month? "ANSWER: Anywhere from 850 to 950." And then if you skip ahead -Page 236 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 406 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 407 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: ·5 This line of questions is about -- before the year 2009? ·3 ·4 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. FORGE: Correct. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, was somebody who had no ·6 experience buying or selling real estate -- is ·7 that the type of expertise you were looking ·8 for -- ·9 10 11 12 MR. PETROCELLI: That's not -- BY MR. FORGE: Q. -- for instructors at Trump University? 13 MR. PETROCELLI: Well, Jason, you're 14 not representing that the witness in this 15 deposition had no experience? 16 17 18 19 BY MR. FORGE: Q. (Reading): "QUESTION: Prior to 2009, you did not buy or sell any real estate; right? 20 "ANSWER: 21 MR. PETROCELLI: 22 "QUESTION: Correct." I'm just looking -- So it sounds like the 23 only real estate property that you bought 24 were the duplexes that you and David Dandy 25 bought in Newark; is that right? Page 237 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 407 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 408 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 "ANSWER: Yes." ·2 MR. FORGE: ·3 MR. PETROCELLI: That's at a later date. Okay. So you're ·4 talking about -- that's what I meant. ·5 your last question wasn't limited to time. ·6 ·7 MR. FORGE: My last question wasn't even about -- ·8 ·9 MR. PETROCELLI: You said had no experience in real estate. 10 MR. FORGE: 11 MR. PETROCELLI: 12 Correct. But I thought he only had no experience prior to '09. 13 MR. FORGE: That's when he started 14 working for Trump University. 15 MR. PETROCELLI: The question just 16 seemed to be unclear to me. 17 apologize. 18 BY MR. FORGE: 19 Q. 20 But, anyway, I Go back to your -- Is that the type of expertise you were expecting from the instructors, Mr. Trump -- 21 A. No. 22 Q. -- instructors that had no 23 24 25 But experience buying -MR. PETROCELLI: Is he an instructor? Page 238 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 408 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 409 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. FORGE: ·2 questions. ·3 asking -- ·4 MR. FORGE: But before you said Same thing. BY MR. FORGE: ·8 Q. You understand live event instructor and mentor are interchangeable? 10 A. 11 12 I'm he was a mentor -- ·6 ·9 It doesn't matter. MR. PETROCELLI: ·5 ·7 Dan, let me just ask the No, I don't think so. MR. PETROCELLI: I object to that. BY MR. FORGE: 13 Q. Do you distinguish between the two? 14 A. I think so, yeah. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. I think a mentor will go around with How so? 17 people and they'll, you know, talk and this and 18 that. 19 level. 20 21 22 I think an instructor is at a higher Q. Instructor is a higher level than a mentor? A. Yeah, I think so. I think in a 23 certain way -- yeah, in a certain way I would say 24 that -- oh, I didn't know. 25 an instructor? Is this a mentor or Page 239 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 409 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 410 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. PETROCELLI: He indicated it was a mentor. BY MR. FORGE: ·4 Q. ·5 neither. ·6 A. ·7 an instructor? ·8 Q. You don't know; right? ·9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. Okay. 11 12 13 14 It could be both. No. No. It could be Is this person a mentor or So do you know any of the mentors that worked for Trump University? A. No, I don't. That was up to Mr. Sexton. Q. Did you do anything personally to 15 confirm the expertise of any of the Trump 16 University mentors? 17 A. No, I didn't. 18 Q. Did you do anything personally to 19 confirm the qualifications of any of the Trump 20 University mentors? 21 A. There was Mr. Sexton. 22 Q. So that's a no for you? 23 A. No for me, yes. 24 Q. Did you do anything personally to 25 confirm the qualifications of any of the Trump Page 240 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 410 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 411 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump University live events instructors? A. No -- well, I did see résumés, as I told you, because I wanted to see them. And -- ·4 Q. But, again, you can't say -- ·5 A. No. But on a couple of occasions, I ·6 was not happy with them. ·7 that -- you know, pretty sure I sent them down. ·8 It was years ago. ·9 résumés and I said, do something, you know, get 10 them out. 11 that, no. 12 13 And I understand And I wasn't happy with the I didn't want them. Q. But other than Other than the résumés you didn't want -- 14 A. Right. 15 Q. -- nothing? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. And, again, not a single actual live 18 events instructor whose résumé you can recall 19 seeing; correct? 20 MR. PETROCELLI: 21 THE WITNESS: Asked and answered. I can't recall, but -- 22 I think I probably saw, but I cannot 23 recall. 24 BY MR. FORGE: 25 Q. And you don't have any basis to Page 241 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 411 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 412 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 dispute Mr. Sexton's testimony that you did not ·2 review the résumés of any of the actual live ·3 events instructors? ·4 ·5 A. I don't know who sent them to me, but I did see résumés. ·6 Q. But you don't have -- ·7 A. Might not have been sent by ·8 ·9 Mr. Sexton. Q. But you don't have any basis to 10 dispute Mr. Sexton's testimony that you did not 11 review the résumés of any people who were 12 actually used as live events instructors; 13 correct? 14 MR. PETROCELLI: 15 THE WITNESS: 16 BY MR. FORGE: 18 Q. 20 He might not have known that, but I would see résumés. 17 19 résumés were of somebody -A. No, I don't know that. MR. PETROCELLI: 22 down this path before. 24 25 I -- But you have no idea if those 21 23 Asked and answered. We went exactly BY MR. FORGE: Q. And just want to make sure we're in the same place where we were before. We are; Page 242 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 412 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 413 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump right, Mr. Trump? ·2 A. Yes, I think so. ·3 Q. Okay. And you never actually sat ·4 down face-to-face with any of the live events ·5 instructors and kind of tested their knowledge; ·6 correct? ·7 A. ·8 ·9 10 I thought Mr. Sexton brought them up to my office in certain cases, no. Q. Mr. Sexton has testified that you never met any of them. 11 MR. PETROCELLI: 12 facts not in evidence. 13 14 15 16 Question assumes BY MR. FORGE: Q. That's neither here, nor there. Did you ever sit down -A. Yeah, I think -- I think -- didn't 17 we have meetings in my office? 18 my books? 19 office, you know, years and years ago. 20 think I had meetings in my office with various 21 people that were instructors. 22 Q. Didn't I give you And I thought I had meetings in my But I Again, Mr. Trump, I think -- I 23 think -- you correct me if I'm wrong. 24 you're confusing Trump University early days -- 25 A. I think That could be. Page 243 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 413 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 414 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 Q. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump -- when it was e-learning, and Trump University later, when it was live events. A. But I do remember having meetings in ·4 my office a long time ago with people that were ·5 involved -- ·6 ·7 Q. When you say with people, you mean with actual college professors; correct? ·8 A. I believe so, yes. ·9 Q. Okay. I'm not talking about the 10 actual college professors. 11 live events instructors and mentors. 12 13 A. I don't know if I can differentiate. It was Trump University to me. 14 Q. 15 independent -- 16 A. 17 18 I'm talking about the Okay. But you don't have any No, I don't know that I can differentiate between the two. Q. But what I'm asking you is, you 19 don't have any independent recollection of ever 20 sitting down with a single live events instructor 21 and talking to them about their background -- 22 23 24 25 MR. PETROCELLI: Other than the college professors? MR. FORGE: I said live events instructors. Page 244 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 414 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 415 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 MR. PETROCELLI: ·2 distinguish between the two. ·3 THE WITNESS: ·4 ·5 I cannot -- to me it was one -BY MR. FORGE: ·6 Q. ·7 ·8 He can't Do you have any -- let's go by name. Steve Goff, did you ever sit down with him? ·9 A. Too many years. What I'm saying is 10 that I met with people. 11 live events or it was -- it was people having to 12 do with the school. 13 14 Q. I don't know if it was And those are in the early days; right? 15 A. Well, it was a long time ago. I 16 don't know what you call early days, but it was a 17 long time ago. 18 Q. 19 year of Trump University; correct? 20 A. 21 time ago. 22 year. 23 24 25 What I mean is, it was in the first That I don't know. It was a long But I don't know that it was the first I think you have my books. Q. You don't have any knowledge of it being later than the first year, do you? A. I don't know. I don't know. I Page 245 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 415 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 416 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump think you -- you have my books. ·2 Q. What do you mean I have your books? ·3 A. Don't you have my records or ·4 something or -- ·5 Q. ·6 ·7 ·8 calendar about it. A. I thought you did have things in my calendar. ·9 10 There's certainly nothing in your MR. PETROCELLI: You do have calendars. 11 MR. FORGE: I do. And there's 12 nothing in there about meeting with a 13 single live events instructor. 14 15 16 17 THE WITNESS: I thought there were references in calendar or something -BY MR. FORGE: Q. You would agree with me if it's not 18 in your calendar and if Michael Sexton said it 19 didn't happen, it didn't happen? 20 A. I thought I met with people. I 21 don't know when I met with people, but I thought 22 I met with people. 23 or, as you say, pre live. 24 25 Q. I don't know if it was live That's what I'm getting at, though. You don't have any basis to dispute Page 246 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 416 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 417 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 the fact -- to dispute testimony that you did not ·2 meet with the live events instructors? ·3 MR. PETROCELLI: ·4 THE WITNESS: Asked and answered. Again, I can't ·5 differentiate between the live and the pre ·6 live. ·7 BY MR. FORGE: ·8 Q. And you can't differentiate based on 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. And you can't differentiate -- 12 A. Too many years ago. 13 Q. And you can't differentiate based on ·9 14 name? the face? 15 A. Too many years ago. 16 Q. So no. 17 A. It's ancient history. 18 Q. So no, you can't differentiate based 19 on the name. 20 A. That's right. 21 Q. No, you can't differentiate based on 22 the face. 23 A. That's right. 24 Q. So going back to Kerry Lucas and his 25 Too long ago. testimony that he -- prior to working for Trump Page 247 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 417 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 418 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 University, he had no experience buying and ·2 selling real estate -- ·3 ·4 MR. PETROCELLI: representing that he testified to that. ·5 ·6 MR. FORGE: I am. MR. PETROCELLI: MR. FORGE: 10 MR. PETROCELLI: 12 13 We haven't seen that -- ·9 11 I am representing that. ·7 ·8 Again, you're I'm representing that. -- except that you showed that us. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Prior to working as an instructor or 14 mentor with Trump University, he had no 15 experience buying or selling real estate. 16 17 A. I think he was a mentor, not -- I think he was not -- you said -- 18 MR. PETROCELLI: 19 THE WITNESS: 20 mentor. 21 BY MR. FORGE: 22 23 24 25 Q. He was a mentor. You said he was a You don't think he was also an instructor? A. I don't know. But I think you said that he was a mentor, the first top certified Page 248 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 418 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 419 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 mentor. ·2 ·3 Q. ·6 I'm asking you. You don't know, though? ·4 ·5 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump A. I don't know. I don't know who he Q. Is that the type of qualification is. ·7 that you were looking for for a Trump University ·8 mentor? ·9 10 MR. PETROCELLI: Assumes facts not in evidence. 11 THE WITNESS: An instructor, no. As 12 a mentor, I think it's -- a mentor takes 13 people around. 14 different. 15 16 I think it's a little bit BY MR. FORGE: Q. Do you know that it cost 17 significantly more money for the student to work 18 with a mentor than to sit in with an instructor? 19 20 MR. PETROCELLI: Assumes facts not in evidence. 21 THE WITNESS: I think it's a 22 different -- it's a whole different feel. 23 But there was a certain mentoring program. 24 I don't have the numbers in front of me, 25 no. Page 249 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 419 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 420 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump BY MR. FORGE: ·2 Q. Do you have any idea? ·3 A. About what? ·4 Q. How much it costs for a three-day ·5 mentorship with a Trump University mentor? ·6 ·7 ·8 A. ago. No, I don't. I don't know. Q. It was a long time I don't know currently. For someone who had no experience ·9 buying or selling real estate, do you consider 10 that person to be qualified to charge tens of 11 thousands of dollars for a three-day real estate 12 mentorship? 13 MR. PETROCELLI: It assumes many 14 facts not in evidence and is argumentative. 15 And it's an improper hypothetical and seeks 16 improper opinion testimony. 17 18 19 Subject to my objections, you may answer. THE WITNESS: I really -- I really 20 can't answer. 21 background is. 22 he's a super genius in so many ways. 23 don't know. 24 just can't tell you that. 25 that you'd really have to ask that question I don't know what his I really don't know. Maybe I I mean, I can't tell you. I I would think Page 250 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 420 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 421 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 ·4 ·5 ·6 ·7 ·8 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump of Mr. Sexton because -BY MR. FORGE: Q. So you have no idea if he was qualified or not? A. I don't know. I don't know. don't know anything about him. Q. I never met him. You don't know if he's qualified to be an instructor? ·9 A. I never met him. 10 Q. So you don't know if he was 11 I qualified to be an instructor? 12 A. No, because I never met him. 13 Q. And you don't know if he's qualified 14 to be a mentor? 15 A. I never met him. 16 Q. How about Keith Sperry; do you know 17 if he -- 18 A. Who? 19 Q. Keith Sperry. 20 A. I don't know who that is. 21 Q. So you don't know if he was 22 qualified to be an instructor? 23 A. Don't know. 24 Q. Don't know if he was qualified to be 25 a mentor? Page 251 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 421 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 422 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 A. Don't know. ·2 Q. Chris Goff, do you know if he was ·3 qualified to be an instructor? ·4 A. Okay. ·5 Q. Qualified to be a mentor? ·6 A. I don't know. ·7 Q. Steve Goff, do you know if he was ·8 No, I don't. qualified to be an instructor? ·9 A. I don't know who they are. 10 Q. Do you know if he was qualified to 11 be a mentor? 12 A. I don't know who they are. 13 Q. James Harris, do you know if he was 14 qualified to be an instructor? 15 A. I don't know who it is. 16 Q. So that's a no? 17 (Reporter seeks clarification.) 18 A. I don't know who he is. 19 Q. And therefore you don't know if he 20 was qualified to be an instructor? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. I don't know the people. 24 25 running it. Q. So you don't know. I wasn't I don't know the people. And you don't know whether they were Page 252 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 422 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 423 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump qualified? A. running it. I don't know that because I was not I don't know who the people are. ·4 Q. ·5 were qualified. ·6 A. ·7 ·8 And you also don't know whether they I don't know whether or not they were qualified, no. Q. Now, do you know whether or not ·9 instructors with Trump University had prior 10 judgments entered against them from former 11 students? 12 A. No, I don't. 13 Q. Is that the type of -- 14 A. You mean former students, before me? 15 Q. Before Trump University, yes. 16 A. That I don't know. 17 Q. Okay. 18 19 MR. PETROCELLI: question? 20 21 22 Is that the type of -Can you repeat the I'm sorry. MR. FORGE: Sure. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Instructor with Trump University had 23 a judgment entered against him by former 24 students. 25 MR. PETROCELLI: A former student Page 253 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 423 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 424 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 sued an instructor and got a judgment? ·2 ·3 ·4 ·5 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. FORGE: Correct. Prior to Trump University. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Is that the type of background item ·6 that fit the criteria you expected for a Trump ·7 University instructor? ·8 MR. PETROCELLI: Lacks foundation ·9 and calls for improper opinion testimony 10 and is vague. 11 THE WITNESS: I just don't know the 12 answer because I don't know what the 13 circumstance was. 14 disagreed with the judgment. 15 16 17 18 Maybe I would have BY MR. FORGE: Q. So it's possible that person would still be qualified, in your book? A. It's possible. I know people that 19 have -- I know doctors that have malpractice 20 suits and they're great doctors. 21 those things. 22 Q. It's one of How about instructors who had 23 declared bankruptcy and most of their debt was 24 real estate-related? 25 MR. PETROCELLI: What's the Page 254 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 424 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 425 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump question? BY MR. FORGE: Q. Is that the type of track record ·4 that you were looking for for instructors at ·5 Trump University? ·6 MR. PETROCELLI: Same objections. ·7 Improper hypothetical, lacks foundation and ·8 is vague. ·9 THE WITNESS: I've thrown companies 10 into bankruptcy. 11 so has Henry Kravis and so has many of the 12 greatest business people in the world. 13 They've thrown -- we've all, you know, used 14 bankruptcy to settle deals with banks, 15 et cetera, et cetera. 16 And so has Carl Icahn and I mean, I've thrown -- I've thrown 17 companies into bankruptcy, but so have many 18 of the great business people. 19 almost -- I could keep naming them. 20 21 22 I can name BY MR. FORGE: Q. Have you ever used bankruptcy to escape a personal debt to an individual? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Is that part of -- was that 25 something that would be a disqualifying Page 255 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 425 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 426 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 characteristic of an applicant to be a Trump ·2 University instructor? ·3 MR. PETROCELLI: ·4 and vague and ambiguous. ·5 THE WITNESS: ·6 MR. PETROCELLI: ·7 No. Improper opinion testimony. ·8 ·9 Lacks foundation THE WITNESS: No. That wouldn't be. BY MR. FORGE: 10 Q. Other than the name, is there any 11 difference between Trump University and Trump 12 Institute? 13 A. I'd rather have you ask that 14 question of Michael Sexton. 15 in that. 16 but you'd have to ask that question to Michael 17 Sexton. 18 Q. 19 I was not involved At some point, they changed the name, But I'm asking you. Do you have knowledge of any 20 difference, other than the name, any difference 21 between -- 22 A. Trump Institute was the original 23 name? You mean when it originally -- because 24 they have changed the name. 25 about the original Trump Institute? Are you talking Page 256 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 426 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 427 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Q. You started a business that was known as Trump University; right? ·3 A. Right. ·4 Q. Now, at some point, you learned of ·5 an entity known as Trump Institute; correct? ·6 A. Right. Well, again, you're talking ·7 about legal entities. ·8 lawyers that question. ·9 10 Q. So Trump Institute, you're not sure what that is? 11 A. 12 question. 13 point. 14 You'd have to ask my Q. You'd have to ask my lawyers that They did change the name at some Just to help you out a little bit, 15 I'm not talking about a name change of Trump 16 University. 17 entity -- I'm talking about a different 18 A. That's right. 19 Q. -- run by different people. 20 A. Okay. 21 ask my lawyers. 22 Q. 23 is not enough? 24 A. 25 That's right. You'd have to So Trump Institute, that name alone You would have to ask my lawyers. Those are the ones that would be familiar with Page 257 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 427 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 428 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump it. Q. Do you recall being involved in any ·3 other real estate education program other than ·4 Trump University and then the renamed Trump ·5 University [sic]? ·6 A. I don't recall that, no. ·7 MR. FORGE: ·8 What are we on, Eileen, 497? ·9 THE REPORTER: 10 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 497, Bates Nos. 11 WEISER001604 through 28, 10/7/05 Agreement, 12 marked for identification.) 13 14 15 Tab 41. Yes. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, I've placed in front of you a document marked as Exhibit 497. 16 Do you recognize this document, sir? 17 (Witness peruses the exhibit.) 18 19 A. 22 23 A long time ago. 2005, it's a long time ago. 20 21 Vaguely. MR. PETROCELLI: Well, Vaguely. Do you want to describe it, Jason? BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, Exhibit 497 is a document 24 with the first Bates number of WEISER, 25 W-E-I-S-E-R, 001604, and a final page, same Bates Page 258 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 428 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 429 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 number, 1628. ·2 it purports to be an agreement. ·3 And it appears to be -- at least It begins, "This agreement is made ·4 and entered into this 7th day of October 2005 by ·5 and between Trump University LLC, a Delaware ·6 limited liability company with its principal ·7 office care of The Trump Organization, 725 Fifth ·8 Avenue, New York, New York," and it goes on. ·9 A. Okay. 10 MR. PETROCELLI: 11 party to the contract? 12 Q. Does that name ring a bell with you at all? 17 18 And Business Strategies Group LLC, a Nevada limited liability company. 15 16 You would -- BY MR. FORGE: 13 14 Who's the other A. name. It does. I mean, I've heard the I don't know exactly -- 19 Q. How about the Mylands [ph]? 20 A. I think so. I think they owned it. 21 I think it was a group -- an educational group. 22 I do believe somewhere along the line they owned 23 it. 24 25 That's the name I remember, Myland. Q. If you could, please, turn to page 1022 of this document. Page 259 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 429 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 430 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 MR. PETROCELLI: ·2 numbers on the bottom. ·3 ·4 ·5 BY MR. FORGE: Q. The Bates numbers on the bottom right-hand corner. ·6 MR. PETROCELLI: ·7 THE WITNESS: ·8 ·9 10 It's the Bates It's this page. Go ahead. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Does that appear to be your signature on this agreement? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. If you look above, does that appear 13 to be Michael Sexton's signature? 14 15 MR. PETROCELLI: University"? 16 MR. FORGE: 17 THE WITNESS: 18 19 20 21 Under "Trump Yes. I guess it is, yes. Yes, it would be. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Irene Myland is signing for Business Strategies Group. 22 Do you see that? 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. Before we get into the details of 25 this deal, Mr. Trump, if you look back at the Page 260 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 430 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 431 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 first page of this. ·2 ·3 ·4 ·5 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. FORGE: Eileen, if you could please hand Mr. Trump Exhibit 468. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Do you see, Mr. Trump, 468, if you ·6 recall, is the operating agreement for Trump ·7 University. ·8 that, second paragraph, it states, "The parties ·9 to this agreement desire to form a limited 10 liability company under the laws of the State of 11 New York for the purposes and on the terms and 12 conditions set forth in this agreement." 13 And if you look at the first page of And that is a document that was 14 signed -- I'll give you the exact date. 15 the signatures aren't dated, but it was -- it 16 does provided that the -- it's dated as of 17 October 27, 2004. 18 Well, Do you see that on there? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, if you compare that to 21 Exhibit 497, I believe is the -- yes. 22 Exhibit 497, now we're just under one year later, 23 it's referring to Trump University LLC as a 24 Delaware limited liability company. 25 And Do you see that? Page 261 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 431 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 432 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 A. Yes. ·2 Q. Was -- the difference between the ·3 Delaware and New York, was that change in that ·4 year due to the issues concerning the name Trump ·5 University? ·6 A. ·7 It could be. ·8 the lawyers. ·9 10 Q. I don't know. I really don't know. You'll have to ask Mr. Sexton or Do you have any understanding as to why it changed -- 11 A. No. 12 Q. -- other than that? Any 13 understanding other than relating to the 14 university name? 15 A. 16 No, I don't. MR. PETROCELLI: 17 related to the name. 18 your question. 19 20 21 MR. FORGE: He didn't say it I didn't understand Okay. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Other than a reason for the change 22 related to the name Trump University, do you have 23 any other -- is there anything else that might 24 have been an explanation? 25 A. Not that I would know of. Page 262 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 432 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 433 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Q. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump As far as you know, Trump University ·2 never had its headquarters anywhere other than ·3 New York; correct? ·4 ·5 ·6 ·7 A. I don't believe so, but again that was up to Mr. Sexton. Q. You'd have to ask him. As far as you knew, nowhere outside of New York; correct? ·8 A. As far as I knew, yes. ·9 Q. Focusing on Exhibit 497, do you 10 recall there being -- entering into a licensing 11 agreement with the Trump Institute? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you -- so I'm going back to my 14 question originally. 15 Other than the name, was there any 16 difference between Trump University and Trump 17 Institute? 18 19 20 A. Well, it was run by a different group of people. Q. And in terms of the substance of 21 what was taught, was there any difference between 22 Trump University and Trump Institute? 23 A. I don't think it was a great 24 difference. 25 2005, I have to -- I don't know. It's many years ago. Page 263 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 433 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 434 of 669 Q. As you sit here, can you recall any difference in terms of the substance? A. the road. It's too far -- it's too far down I would say there wasn't -- perhaps that wasn't that much difference, no, in terms of the substance. Q. Did you ever detect any problems with the quality of the instruction at Trump Institute? A. I don't know. Q. Did you ever personally do anything to check on the quality of instruction at Trump Institute? A. I think that was up to Mr. Sexton. Q. So that means you did not personally do anything? A. No, it was more Mr. Sexton. would be the one. Q. He He was in charge. I still have to get an answer. The answer was no as to you personally doing anything? A. Not that I remember. Not that I remember. Exhibit 2 page 434 Case Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 435 of 669 Exhibit 2 page 435 Case Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 436 of 669 Exhibit 2 page 436 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 437 of 669 Q. Now, shifting gears a little bit, when you own and develop a real estate project -A. Right. Q. -- that's significantly different from when you just license your name for a real estate project; correct? A. That's right, yes. Q. And in those instances where you're just licensing a real estate project, that's something that potential buyers are informed about through contract documents to make clear you're just the licensor; correct? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection; lacks foundation, improper hypothetical, overbroad. THE WITNESS: I think generally speaking, yes. BY MR. FORGE: Q. And when you're licensing your name for a project, as opposed to developing it yourself, you're not promising to stand behind the project's completion; correct? MR. PETROCELLI: Same objections. Exhibit 2 page 437 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 438 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 THE WITNESS: A lot of times -- ·2 depending on what deal. ·3 different, but a lot of times that would be ·4 true. ·5 BY MR. FORGE: ·6 Q. A lot of deals are But when you are the owner and ·7 developer of a project, you are actually there ·8 and can affect whether or not the project's going ·9 to be completed; correct? 10 MR. PETROCELLI: 11 THE WITNESS: 12 13 14 yes. Same objections. It's generally more -- I would say generally more so, yes. BY MR. FORGE: Q. And what I'm getting at is, if 15 you're the actual owner and developer, the buck 16 stops with you; correct? 17 MR. PETROCELLI: 18 THE WITNESS: Question is vague. Well, I view 19 everything -- I view everything where, if 20 it's got my name on it, it's very 21 important. 22 probably -- there's somewhat of a 23 difference, yeah. But I think there are 24 In this case, it was a corporation, 25 so it doesn't -- it shouldn't stop with me Page 268 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 438 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 439 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 personally, as it doesn't stop with the ·2 head of Ford or the head of General Motors, ·3 et cetera, et cetera. ·4 out. ·5 But, yeah. ·6 ·7 We'll argue that I would say that we were involved, yes. BY MR. FORGE: ·8 Q. When you say "involved," what do you 10 A. We're involved. 11 Q. Oh, in Trump Institute? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. But -- 14 A. We're involved in the other -- we're ·9 mean? We're involved -- 15 involved in Trump Institute too. 16 be successful also. 17 18 Q. Why did you cancel -- why did this licensing agreement -- actually, strike that. 19 20 We want that to Do you know if this licensing agreement continued through Year 4? 21 A. I don't remember. 22 Q. Do you recall there being any 23 problems with Trump Institute? 24 A. I don't remember. 25 Q. You mentioned earlier that if an Page 269 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 439 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 440 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 e-mail had been sent to you, you would expect ·2 somebody to give that to you; correct? ·3 ·4 A. something. ·5 ·6 It might be sent to the company or Q. To the company, and you would expect that to be given to you? ·7 A. Yeah. Although I get so much mail, ·8 that sometimes I would say that I wouldn't get ·9 things. 10 would say generally I would be able to get it, 11 yes. 12 Q. But, you know, sometimes I would. I Is there a cutoff in terms of 13 significance level that determines whether or not 14 you receive mail that comes in? 15 A. No, but we have a lot of mail that 16 comes in, tremendous amounts of mail. 17 for a long time. 18 Q. I have had Is there -- are there any categories 19 of mail that would be, just as a general rule, 20 less important -- 21 A. I would say the person that receives 22 it, the competence or the common sense of the 23 person that receives it. 24 25 MR. FORGE: take out Tab 35. If you could, please, We're going to mark this Page 270 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 440 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 441 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump as Exhibit 498. ·2 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 498, Bates Nos. ·3 NYSED000106 through 07, 5/27/05 Letter to ·4 Trump from Frey, marked for ·5 identification.) ·6 ·7 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, if you could, please, ·8 look over Exhibit 498, which is a two-page ·9 document that begins with Bates No. NYSED000106. 10 It is a letter dated May 27, 2005, addressed to 11 you, chairman of Trump University. 12 (Witness peruses the exhibit.) 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Now, Mr. Trump, is this the type of 15 letter that is the type that you would expect to 16 receive if received by the office? 17 MR. PETROCELLI: 18 THE WITNESS: Vague. I would like to 19 receive it. 20 remember ever having received it. 21 it's a long time ago, ten years ago. 22 don't remember ever having received it. 23 24 25 I just don't -- I don't 2005, I BY MR. FORGE: Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that you received it? Page 271 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 441 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 442 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 A. Yeah. I do. ·2 Q. Why? ·3 A. Because I think I would have ·4 remembered it. ·5 Q. ·6 remembered it? ·7 A. Why do you think you would have It's a letter from a State ·8 Department. ·9 have received -- I probably should have received 10 it. 11 they did, maybe they didn't. I would say that I probably would Assuming they sent it correctly, which maybe 12 But this is the kind of a letter 13 that I would have liked to have received. 14 don't remember receiving it. 15 it. 16 17 I just I may have received I just don't remember receiving it. Q. You would expect to remember this because it's important; correct? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Now, you mentioned that Mr. Sexton 20 did a good job and you considered him competent 21 and capable; right? 22 A. I thought so. 23 Q. So this is the type of matter that 24 you would have expected him to bring to your 25 attention; correct? Page 272 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 442 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 443 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 A. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Or resolve the matter -- or to resolve the matter, yes. Q. Do you recall Mr. Sexton bringing to ·4 your attention in 2005 issues with the New York ·5 State Department of Education regarding the ·6 legality of using the name "University" in the ·7 State of New York? ·8 ·9 10 11 12 A. Very vaguely, but I thought he had it all worked out. Q. So you remember the issue coming up back then, but you thought he worked it out? A. I thought he worked it out. I 13 remember the issue, but I thought it was all 14 worked out. 15 16 17 Q. And what -- what do you recall him doing to work out the issue back in 2005? A. It wasn't a question of what he did. 18 But I just thought he had it worked out. 19 didn't know what he did, but I did not think it 20 was an issue. 21 22 23 Q. I So from 2005 -- from 2006 forward, you thought that issue had been resolved? A. I did not think it was an issue. I 24 remember hearing about the issue, but I thought 25 that it was all worked out. Unfortunately, maybe Page 273 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 443 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 444 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 it wasn't. ·2 ·3 Q. A. Nothing. Q. Okay. I thought it was worked out. ·6 ·7 What, if anything, did you do to verify that it had been resolved in 2005? ·4 ·5 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump And you thought it was worked out based on what? ·8 A. Just based on the fact that I didn't ·9 hear much about it anymore, if anything. 10 later, I didn't hear about it. 11 this is -- I mean, this is a thing that is not 12 very difficult to work out one way or the other, 13 and I would have assumed that Mr. Sexton would 14 have been able to work that out. 15 Q. Until I thought that So other than assuming he would have 16 been able to work it out, did you actually do 17 anything to confirm -- 18 A. No. 19 Q. -- whether or not it had been worked A. No, because I didn't think it was 20 21 out? 22 necessary. 23 he was doing a job. 24 gotten this taken care of. 25 Q. I thought he was -- he was in charge, And I thought he would have And you later learned that was not Page 274 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 444 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 445 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump the case; correct? A. Well, I later learned it was ·3 continuing onward, which -- I was surprised ·4 because I thought it was something that could ·5 have been routinely handled. ·6 ·7 Q. But you understand now that it was not, in fact, resolved in 2005; correct? ·8 A. I guess it wasn't, but -- I thought ·9 it was, but I guess it wasn't. 10 only later on. 11 Q. And I heard that And so do you believe Mr. Sexton's 12 failure to resolve this in 2005 is consistent 13 with him being competent and capable? 14 15 MR. PETROCELLI: Vague, improper opinion testimony. 16 THE WITNESS: I only know I was 17 surprised that it wasn't worked out because 18 it's not a hard thing to work out. 19 20 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Were there any repercussions for 21 Mr. Sexton once you found out that it had not 22 actually been worked out? 23 A. Well, I think it was years later 24 that I actually found out. 25 happy. I was not happy. Yeah, I was not Because it's so easy to Page 275 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 445 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 446 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 work out. ·2 ·3 It's not like a big deal. Q. Did you express your displeasure to anyone? ·4 ·5 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump A. Mr. Garten. Maybe to Mr. Sexton. Maybe to Could have been Mr. Garten. ·6 Q. Anyone else you can think of? ·7 A. No. ·8 Mr. Garten actually, a lawyer. ·9 MR. PETROCELLI: 10 11 I think it was mostly to Don't talk about your communications with -BY MR. FORGE: 12 Q. Approximately when was that? 13 A. When I found out it wasn't worked 14 out. 15 don't know. I assumed this was worked out a long -- I 16 Q. Give me a year. 17 A. Years ago. 18 19 20 years ago. Q. So years -- let me make sure because we're talking about a pretty wide span of time. 21 22 I have no idea, but 2005 you found out there was an issue; right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. You think that issue is resolved. 25 A. I don't know -Page 276 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 446 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 447 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 Q. You assume that issue is -- ·2 A. I don't know if it was 2005, but I ·3 heard there was an issue a long time ago. ·4 heard the issue was worked out. ·5 to work out. ·6 don't work it out, but it's something that wasn't ·7 hard to work out. ·8 I It wasn't hard It's not even a big penalty if you And I would have assumed they worked ·9 it out, and then I found out they didn't work it 10 out. 11 think I spoke to Sexton about it. 12 I think I spoke to my lawyer about it. Q. I What I'm trying to place is, when 13 did you find out that they hadn't worked it out, 14 what year? 15 MR. PETROCELLI: 16 THE WITNESS: Asked and answered. Years ago, but 17 ultimately they made the name change or 18 something. 19 20 21 BY MR. FORGE: Q. 2010? I'll tell you that 2010 is when the name change came into effect. 22 A. Sometime prior to that. 23 Q. So sometime prior to then you found 24 25 out that it hadn't been resolved? A. That's right. Page 277 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 447 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 448 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 Q. And obviously prior to that time -- ·2 A. I was actually told -- I think by ·3 Mr. Sexton or by Mr. Garten, somebody, but I was ·4 told that the -- that the Department was okay, ·5 basically, with what we were doing. ·6 surprised to hear there was a problem. ·7 Q. I was very So for approximately how many years ·8 were you under the impression that this had been ·9 resolved? 10 A. I didn't hear much about it. When I 11 first heard about it and then I assumed it was 12 resolved, and I didn't hear about it for years. 13 Q. 14 15 16 That's what I'm getting at. Approximately how many years? A. A number of years. I don't know how many years. 17 Q. Three or four? 18 A. A number of years, whatever -- 19 Q. More than two? 20 A. Probably, yeah. 21 MR. FORGE: 22 THE WITNESS: 23 MR. FORGE: 24 Tab 46. It's ridiculous. Let's mark this as Exhibit 499. 25 Page 278 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 448 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 449 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 499, Bates Nos. ·2 TU102909 through 922, E-mail dated 2/19/08 ·3 from Sexton to Graff with attachments, ·4 marked for identification.) ·5 ·6 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, I've placed in front of ·7 you a document marked as Exhibit 499. ·8 e-mail with attachments. ·9 TU102909. 10 It is an The first page is The final page is TU102922. Do you see that, sir? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. The e-mail is from Michael Sexton. 13 It begins, "Rhona, I hope you had a great long 14 weekend. 15 direct mail piece that DJT approved." 16 Attached are the print ad and the Do you see that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Are you aware of any marketing 19 materials for Trump University bearing your name 20 that you didn't approve? 21 A. 22 quickly. 23 But I think they showed them to me quickly. 24 I see these ads. 25 Q. I think they show them to me very I didn't spend a lot of time on it. Yes, That's a no, you're not aware of any Page 279 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 449 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 450 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump that you didn't approve; correct? A. I don't know. I mean, I don't know ·3 what the -- I can't answer that question. ·4 think I looked at these two. ·5 Q. I Are you aware of any marketing ·6 materials for Trump University bearing your name ·7 that you didn't approve? ·8 A. I'm not aware. ·9 Q. Any marketing materials for Trump 10 University bearing your picture that you did not 11 approve? 12 A. I'm not aware of any, no. 13 Q. Any marketing materials for Trump 14 University bearing your signature that you did 15 not approve? 16 A. I'm not aware of any, no. 17 Q. If you turn, please, to 18 page 10921 -- 102921. 19 be an ad for fast-track foreclosure investing 20 seminars that were going to take place in Saddle 21 Brook, New Jersey in March of 2008. 22 This is -- it appears to Do you see that at the bottom? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Mr. Trump, you have no idea who the 25 Okay. instructor was for these seminars, do you? Page 280 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 450 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 451 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 A. I don't know that, no. ·2 Q. And you have no idea whether they ·3 presented any of your personal real estate ·4 strategies, do you? ·5 A. Well, I certainly think they ·6 probably did. ·7 question of Mr. Sexton. ·8 Q. ·9 you now. 10 11 Again, you'd have to ask that Okay. So -- but I'm asking it to Do you have any personal knowledge -- 12 A. No. 13 Q. -- as to whether or not they 14 presented any of your actual real estate 15 strategies? 16 17 A. No. I would think Mr. Sexton would be able to give you that answer. 18 Q. And you are not able to? 19 A. You're talking about years ago. 20 21 In 2007, you're talking about many, many years ago. Q. But even at the time, you didn't do 22 anything to make sure you knew exactly what they 23 were going to be presenting; correct? 24 25 A. Well, I would discuss things with Mr. Sexton and with, you know, attorneys at the Page 281 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 451 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 452 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 time and Mr. Weisselberg, et cetera, et cetera, ·2 Alan Weisselberg. ·3 knew generally speaking, but, no. ·4 in charge of the school. ·5 ·6 ·7 ·8 ·9 Q. And, you know, I knew -- I Mr. Sexton was So you did not know what was being presented at this seminar; correct? A. I told you you'd have to ask Mr. Sexton. Q. I realize that, Mr. Trump, but I 10 still have to get on the record you did not know; 11 correct? 12 A. 13 14 15 16 17 I was not aware of the exact details, no. Q. You weren't aware of any of the details; correct? A. Probably true. Again, it's a long time ago, I'd have to check, but probably -- 18 Q. 19 aware -- 20 A. As far as I know, that's right. 21 Q. Do you have any sort of unique 22 foreclosure investing system? 23 24 25 But as far as you know, you weren't MR. PETROCELLI: The question is vague. THE WITNESS: I think more than Page 282 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 452 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 453 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 anything else, when you go into a ·2 foreclosure, you want to get the right ·3 location, you want to try and get ·4 something -- if it's going to be ·5 foreclosed, when you come out of ·6 foreclosure, you want to have the right ·7 location. ·8 So location has always been ·9 preeminent in my mind in terms of 10 foreclosures and buying foreclosed 11 properties. 12 13 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Do you have any idea whether that's 14 what Trump University instructors represented to 15 the students? 16 A. I think so because that's what I 17 told Mr. Sexton and that's what I told -- 18 primarily to pass along. 19 and foreclosed property is if and when you are 20 either lucky or unlucky enough to get it, get the 21 right location. 22 Q. 23 The key to foreclosure Do you have any idea if that was actively being presented to students? 24 A. I think so. 25 Q. I'm not asking what you think -- I think so, yes. Page 283 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 453 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 454 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 A. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Well, I don't -- ·2 (Simultaneous cross-talk.) ·3 MR. PETROCELLI: ·4 did you have any idea, and you answered it. ·5 ·6 The question was, What's your next question? BY MR. FORGE: ·7 Q. Do you have any basis for that idea? ·8 A. That's what I told Mr. Sexton. ·9 Q. Do you have any basis to believe 10 that that actually happened? 11 A. I would think it did. 12 Q. I'm not asking if you think it did. 13 I'm asking if you have any basis of personal 14 knowledge to know that it did. 15 16 MR. PETROCELLI: The question is vague. 17 THE WITNESS: 18 that's what I felt. 19 single biggest thing you can do. 20 lot of people buy foreclosed property and 21 they end up in the wrong location and it's 22 no good. 23 24 25 I told Mr. Sexton I feel that that's the Because a BY MR. FORGE: Q. Other than make sure it's in a good location, anything else? Page 284 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 454 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 455 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 A. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump That's the preeminent thing in foreclosed properties, my opinion. Q. You would agree with me that ·4 determining a good location, quote-unquote, ·5 varies in city by city; correct? ·6 A. It does, yes. ·7 Q. And it is -- requires specialized ·8 knowledge of the area; correct? ·9 A. No -- or good gut instinct, yes. 10 Q. So did you -- are you aware of Trump 11 University instructors -- did you ever sit down 12 with a Trump University instructor and explain to 13 them how to determine whether it's a good 14 location? 15 A. I told Mr. Sexton -- I talked to him 16 about location, but I told him to -- many of 17 these -- these instructors were in the real 18 estate business, or many of them. 19 Mr. Sexton that location was the key to 20 foreclosure. 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And I told Anything else that you told him about foreclosure? A. No, because that to me is the single biggest point that people always underestimate. Q. So the extent of your foreclosure Page 285 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 455 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 456 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump system was that location is the key; correct? A. I don't want them getting a ·3 foreclosed property and then end up saying, you ·4 know, there's sometimes a reason why it's ·5 foreclosed. ·6 buying property is getting the right location. The key to a successful foreclosure ·7 Q. That's the extent of it; correct? ·8 A. That's the most important thing, ·9 10 11 absolutely. Q. actually, on this same page, do you see -- 12 13 14 MR. PETROCELLI: Which page? BY MR. FORGE: Q. 15 16 Now, here, if you turn to -- -- about two-thirds -MR. FORGE: Page 102921. BY MR. FORGE: 17 Q. -- about two-thirds down the page -- 18 A. Same page? 19 Q. Yes, sir. 20 A. Go ahead. 21 Q. -- beneath the heading "Trump 22 University Orientation - Fast Track to 23 Foreclosure Investing," the last sentence of that 24 paragraph that follows reads, "If you want to 25 know the best way to buy low, sell high and walk Page 286 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 456 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 457 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 away rich, then clear your schedule and do ·2 whatever it takes to get to my orientation." ·3 What is -- do you have any idea what ·4 the instructors from Trump University presented ·5 as being the best way to buy low, sell high and ·6 walk away rich? ·7 A. I know they had a plan. And they ·8 had books and they had -- they had schedules and ·9 books and everything else. 10 years ago, but you, I assume, will have a copy of 11 the material at those seminars; is that a correct 12 statement? 13 what it is. 14 15 Q. And, again, it's many Because that's what it is. That's I think -Those are the materials that you did not review; correct? 16 A. No, every -- every book -- in fact, 17 some of the books were books that I wrote that 18 they got. 19 of it. 20 21 Q. But the books and the stuff, I saw all I'm talking about the stuff presented at the seminars. 22 A. No, but -- 23 Q. I'm not talking about the books. 24 25 I'm talking about -A. It's many years ago, but I saw a lot Page 287 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 457 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 458 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump of material that was presented. ·2 Q. At the live events? ·3 A. Yeah. ·4 Q. What basis -- ·5 A. That's why when you say about this, I saw a lot of material. ·6 I mean, they had packets and packages of ·7 material. ·8 Q. I would see that material. So you saw in the material the fact ·9 that they were representing that they had had 10 dinner with you and you talked real estate -- 11 12 A. Well, I didn't see that, but -- because I didn't have dinner with the person. 13 MR. PETROCELLI: 14 not in evidence. 15 Q. Also assumes facts Do you see in the materials that 16 they were representing that Trump University was 17 your idea? 18 19 A. It's too long ago to remember. I just -- 20 Q. So you might have known -- 21 A. -- know -- 22 Q. You might have -- 23 A. -- they had packages of material. 24 MR. PETROCELLI: One at a time. 25 Page 288 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 458 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 459 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump BY MR. FORGE: Q. So you might have known that they ·3 were representing to students that Trump ·4 University was your idea? ·5 A. I just know they had large packages ·6 of material. ·7 it's almost ten years ago, but they had packages ·8 of material. ·9 Q. What -- it's so many years ago now, But you don't know -- you don't have 10 any personal knowledge as to whether or not 11 whatever packages of materials you saw were 12 actually presented to students, do you? 13 14 15 A. I think it was all presented to students. Q. I'm not asking what you think. 16 asking whether you have any basis, personal 17 knowledge -- 18 A. I'm I can't say what they do with the 19 exact package, but I saw packages of materials. 20 Students walked away with packages of materials. 21 Q. I'm asking again, do you have any 22 personal knowledge upon which to base a belief 23 that any of the materials you saw were actually 24 presented to students in the live events? 25 A. All I can say is I saw the Page 289 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 459 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 460 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 materials. ·2 present it to students. ·3 ·4 Q. I don't know why they wouldn't But you do not have any personal knowledge as to whether it was or was not? ·5 A. All I can say -- I'm sure you ·6 probably have the packages of materials. ·7 I can say is that I'm sure that packages of ·8 materials were given to students. ·9 10 Q. And all Well, I showed you some of those materials earlier, the presentations -- 11 A. Very few, but I'm talking about 12 other materials, including books and other 13 things. 14 Q. Anything other than books? 15 A. I don't know. I can just tell you 16 that -- you know, you're talking about many years 17 ago. 18 presented. There were packages of materials that were 19 20 21 Q. But I'm asking, anything other than books? A. Yeah. Folders. I think they had 22 charts. 23 They had a lot of learning material. 24 25 Q. They had a lot of different things. I showed you earlier the actual script that was sent to the Trump University Page 290 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 460 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 461 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump instructors. ·2 A. Yes. ·3 Q. And you said you had not seen that. ·4 A. The script -- ·5 MR. PETROCELLI: I'm going to object ·6 to your characterization of what was sent ·7 and to whom it was sent. ·8 But subject to that, you can answer. ·9 THE WITNESS: 10 11 12 I don't remember having seen that, no. BY MR. FORGE: Q. So you don't know what, if anything, 13 was presented to the students as the best way to 14 buy low, sell high and walk away rich? 15 A. I believe -- and I'm going to say it 16 again. 17 the students. 18 time ago. 19 given to the students. 20 21 22 23 24 25 I believe a lot of material was given to Q. It was ten years ago. It's a long But I believe a lot of material was But you have no idea, as you sit here today, what? A. No, but I'm sure it was probably presented to you also. Q. You must have it. So -- but I'm asking you now, do you have any idea what the instructors represented to Page 291 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 461 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 462 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 the students -- ·2 A. I told you I believe a lot of ·3 materials was given to the students, a lot. ·4 you present me with the material, I'll look it ·5 over, but I believe a lot of material was given ·6 to the students. ·7 Q. If Well, you could have requested the ·8 actual recordings of the presentations to the ·9 students; right? 10 A. Yep. 11 Q. You could have listened to the 12 13 actual recordings; right? A. I have actually seen -- I think 14 there were recordings -- come to think of it, 15 there were tapes given to the students, 16 et cetera, et cetera. 17 Q. What I'm asking, though, is, you 18 could have requested the recordings of the actual 19 presentations to the students -- 20 A. I have actually heard recordings. 21 Q. I asked you earlier -- 22 A. No, you didn't ask me that. You 23 were talking about something else, or I at least 24 I thought you were talking about something else. 25 I heard recordings. Page 292 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 462 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 463 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 MR. PETROCELLI: Time out. ·2 I also thought you asked whether he ·3 heard the recordings of the sessions ·4 beginning to end. ·5 ·6 THE WITNESS: BY MR. FORGE: ·7 ·8 Q. Have you heard the sessions -- portions of the sessions? ·9 10 That's true. A. I -- I've heard portions of the sessions. 11 Q. What portions of what sessions? 12 A. I don't remember. 13 ago. It's ten years I don't remember. 14 Q. Do you have any idea? 15 A. Just talked about real estate. 16 It was real estate tape. 17 Q. What I'm asking -- 18 A. I heard a lot of tapes -- 19 Q. I'm not asking for a pretaped thing. 20 I'm asking you for an actual live presentation to 21 students. 22 23 24 25 MR. PETROCELLI: You're arguing with the witness now. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Have you listened to an actual Page 293 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 463 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 464 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump recording of a live presentation to students? ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: ·3 THE WITNESS: All or part? I heard tapes that I ·4 believe, and I may be wrong, were given to ·5 the students on real estate, real estate ·6 investing, et cetera. ·7 BY MR. FORGE: ·8 Q. Okay. ·9 A. I heard tapes. 10 Q. That's different. 11 12 That's different. What I'm asking you is -A. I believe the tapes, the books, the 13 magazine, the whole thing was voluminous. 14 voluminous material, is what you have to know for 15 the lawsuit. 16 of stuff. 17 18 19 Q. It was Because they walked away with a lot But you don't know any of the substance to that stuff; right? A. I mean, I do. I saw it. And I 20 would say that they walked away with a lot of 21 potential knowledge if they studied the tapes, 22 et- -- like everybody else. 23 24 25 Q. Can you identify anything, anything -A. It's too many years ago. It's ten Page 294 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 464 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 465 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump years ago. It's ten years ago. ·2 Q. Is that a no? ·3 A. No, it's not a no. If you presented ·4 me with something, maybe I could tell you I ·5 recognize it. ·6 ·7 ·8 ·9 MR. PETROCELLI: off the top of your head. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Off the top of your head, can you 10 identify any -- 11 A. I remember there were tapes. 12 remember there were packages. 13 books. 14 walked away with. 15 16 I I think there were There was a lot of material that people Q. Okay. So let's shift from the prepackaged tapes. 17 18 I think he means What I'm asking you now is, did you ever listen to the actual recording -- 19 A. I don't think so. 20 Q. -- of the presentations to students? 21 A. No, I don't think so. 22 23 I may have, but I don't think so. Q. If you flip to the next page, which 24 is 102922. 25 of the way down, "I'm going to give you two hours You refer, in about the -- one-third Page 295 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 465 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 466 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump of access to one of my amazing instructors." ·2 Do you see that? ·3 A. Yes. ·4 Q. This is a different date, different ·5 Is that the same date? location. ·6 A. Okay. ·7 Q. Different ad. ·8 Again, you don't have any idea what ·9 the qualifications were of those instructors; 10 correct? 11 A. I could just say good people. 12 wanted good people. 13 résumés -- 14 Q. And I told you I saw You wanted the people, but you have 15 no idea what the actual qualifications were; 16 correct? 17 A. 18 19 20 I I hear we had some great instructors. Q. But I'm asking you, do you have any personal knowledge -- 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. -- as to what the qualifications -- 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. -- actually were? 25 A. They had to be good. I wanted good Page 296 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 466 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 467 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump instructors. ·2 Q. ·3 I know what you wanted. What I'm asking you is, do you have ·4 any personal knowledge that they were, in fact, ·5 good? ·6 A. I've heard good things. My only ·7 knowledge is this: ·8 over the years, I've heard good things. ·9 years, people would come up to me and say, I took 10 that course, we loved it. 11 report cards that -- when people would take the 12 course -- I've never seen anything like it. 13 gave it such high marks. 14 I've heard good things. And Over the And then I would see They And they would even write -- I 15 think -- as I remember, there were different 16 categories as to, you know, maybe excellent, 17 good, very good, whatever. 18 slip underneath for people to write if they had 19 a -- you know, another thing. 20 and they were unbelievable statements about the 21 school. 22 well. 23 24 Q. And then there was a I would see that, So I assumed everything was going very So, again, back to my question -MR. PETROCELLI: Time out. 25 Page 297 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 467 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 468 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Q. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump -- do you have any basis -- ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: ·3 THE WITNESS: ·4 Q. Hold on. I'll allow it. -- or personal knowledge as to the ·5 qualifications of the instructors for this ·6 seminar? ·7 MR. PETROCELLI: ·8 Jason, when you say "back to my Time out. ·9 question," you are suggesting that he did 10 not respond to your question. 11 think that's fair -- 12 MR. FORGE: The record will reflect 13 whether he did or not. 14 MR. PETROCELLI: 15 16 I don't But then don't litter your questions with argumentative -MR. FORGE: I'm not going to give a 17 motion to strike, but that's essentially 18 what we're talking about here. 19 20 MR. PETROCELLI: Well, I think his answer was totally responsive. 21 MR. FORGE: 22 bicker about that later. 23 And I don't. MR. PETROCELLI: We can You can ask the 24 question once again, but he answered your 25 question to the best of his ability. Page 298 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 468 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 469 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, do you have any personal ·3 knowledge regarding the qualifications -- first ·4 of all, do you have any idea who the actual ·5 instructors were for these seminars? ·6 MR. PETROCELLI: ·7 MR. FORGE: ·8 11 12 The ones advertised at page 921 or 922. ·9 10 Which ones? THE WITNESS: There were many instructors, so I wouldn't know. BY MR. FORGE: Q. 13 You wouldn't know. And you wouldn't know whether they 14 had ever bought and sold real estate before this 15 seminar; correct? 16 17 A. Well, look, you have to speak to Mr. Sexton about that. 18 Q. I'm asking you. 19 A. Here's what I know, Jason -- here's You personally -- 20 what I know. 21 review, like -- that were so good that I've never 22 seen reviews like that before, from people that 23 took the course. 24 25 I would see reviews, like a theater They were all happy. Now, until you guys came along, then all of a sudden everybody wants to get their Page 299 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 469 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 470 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 money back. ·2 money back, even if I liked it. ·3 Q. I would sign up too. Give me my Mr. Trump, my question was, do you ·4 know the identity of the instructors for any of ·5 these -- ·6 A. It's too many years ago. ·7 Q. So that's a no; right? ·8 A. I guess, yes. 10 Q. So it's a no? 11 A. It's ancient history. 12 Q. You don't know whether the ·9 It's too many years ago. 13 instructors for these seminars ever bought and 14 sold real estate prior to giving these 15 presentations; correct? 16 A. You have to -- don't forget. It 17 wasn't only about the instructors; it was about 18 the material that the instructors gave out. 19 was a very important element -- That 20 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Trump? 21 A. -- the material that they gave out. 22 23 24 25 Yes, that's correct. Q. That's correct you don't know whether they bought or sold real estate? A. No. Page 300 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 470 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 471 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: ·5 The question is vague and ambiguous. ·3 ·4 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump THE WITNESS: It's not only about the instructor. BY MR. FORGE: ·6 Q. Mr. Trump, we can talk later -- ·7 A. The instructors gave out a vast ·8 ·9 10 amount of material. Q. -- as to whether the information was significant or not. 11 So my question to you -- 12 (Simultaneous cross-talk.) 13 MR. PETROCELLI: 14 15 16 What's your question at hand? BY MR. FORGE: Q. Do you have any personal knowledge 17 as to whether the instructors for these seminars 18 that you're advertising here had any experience 19 buying or selling real estate? 20 A. Number 1, I believe they did. 21 Number 2, it's up to Sexton. 22 people that were doing the seminars gave out vast 23 amounts of material. 24 25 Q. But number 3, those For some reason, you just won't answer my question. Page 301 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 471 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 472 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump A. I'm giving you -- ·2 ·3 MR. PETROCELLI: I beg to differ. BY MR. FORGE: ·4 Q. Do you have any -- ·5 A. Jason, number 4, they got great ·6 reviews. ·7 Q. ·8 ·9 These -Do you have any personal knowledge -A. Excuse me. 10 These instructors that you don't 11 seem to like very much got phenomenal reviews 12 from the people taking the course. 13 14 15 16 MR. PETROCELLI: Jason, in fairness, you're disregarding his answers. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Do you have any personal knowledge 17 as to whether the instructors for these seminars 18 had any experience buying or selling real estate? 19 MR. PETROCELLI: 20 You can answer that to the extent Time out. 21 you need to add to your numerous prior 22 answers responding to that question. 23 24 THE WITNESS: All I can say is it was too long ago. 25 Page 302 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 472 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 473 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 BY MR. FORGE: ·2 Q. ·3 So no. MR. PETROCELLI: ·4 Anything else to answer, you can give it to him. ·5 THE WITNESS: ·6 ·7 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump It's not no; it's too long ago. BY MR. FORGE: ·8 Q. Do you have any personal -- ·9 A. Frankly, based on the fact that so 10 many people said so many good things about the 11 school, I would say they must have done a good 12 job. 13 Q. You said a lot of good things about 14 George Pataki before; right? 15 MR. PETROCELLI: 16 17 to answer. BY MR. FORGE: 18 Q. 19 before; right? 20 21 I instruct you not You said good things about Jeb Bush MR. PETROCELLI: to answer. 22 BY MR. FORGE: 23 Q. I instruct you not Just don't respond. You said good things about people 24 because you wanted to get something from those 25 people, even though those things weren't true; Page 303 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 473 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 474 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 correct? ·2 ·3 ·4 ·5 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. PETROCELLI: to answer. BY MR. FORGE: Q. You're not going to answer? ·6 MR. PETROCELLI: ·7 THE WITNESS: ·8 MR. PETROCELLI: ·9 THE WITNESS: 10 11 I instruct you not He's not answering. Totally different. He's not answering. Totally different. BY MR. FORGE: Q. But you've done it; right? 12 MR. PETROCELLI: 13 I instruct you not to answer. 14 You've been over this already. Not answering. 15 We're not going over -- back because you're 16 getting frustrated. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump -MR. PETROCELLI: Please ask your next question. MR. FORGE: I'm not getting frustrated. MR. PETROCELLI: Time out. We're taking a break right now. Let's go. We've been going for over Page 304 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 474 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 475 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump an hour. We're going to take a break. ·2 THE WITNESS: ·3 been going for two hours. ·4 ·5 MR. PETROCELLI: THE WITNESS: ·7 Are you okay? Am I frustrating you? You're not frustrated. MR. FORGE: 10 THE WITNESS: 11 MR. PETROCELLI: keep going. Let's go. 14 MR. FORGE: Mr. Trump. No, let's keep going. Don't get frustrated. We're not going to As I said, I'm taking a break. 13 15 Let him cool down. Two and a half hours. ·9 12 It's up to you, You want to keep going or -- 16 MR. PETROCELLI: 17 Jason, don't do that again. 18 MR. FORGE: finger at me. 21 22 25 Don't Dan, don't wave your Okay, buddy? MR. PETROCELLI: Don't do that again. 23 24 Take the mic off. talk to my client. 19 20 We've Let's go. ·6 ·8 Not an hour. MR. FORGE: at me. Don't wave your finger All right? MR. PETROCELLI: Don't do that Page 305 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 475 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 476 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump again. ·2 MR. FORGE: ·3 MR. PETROCELLI: ·4 ·5 ·6 ·7 Do you understand? You're really an amateur. And, you two, stop snickering or I'm going to call it out on the record. MR. FORGE: Dan, I don't know if ·8 your blood sugar got low or something, but ·9 you're out of control right now. 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 11 MR. FORGE: 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 13 Off the record? Yes. Going off the record at 3:45 p.m. 14 (Recess from the record.) 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 16 17 18 19 We are going back on the record at 4:09 p.m. MR. PETROCELLI: Just to be clear, we were back here at five to four waiting. MR. FORGE: Okay. To be clear, we 20 were here at 12:30 when we said we were 21 going to be here. 22 till one. 23 24 25 You guys didn't come MR. PETROCELLI: Eating your free lunch that we provided you. MR. FORGE: I didn't eat it, Page 306 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 476 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 477 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump actually. ·2 ·3 MR. PETROCELLI: choice. That was your It was provided to you. ·4 THE WITNESS: ·5 MS. JENSEN: You didn't eat? We could barely eat ·6 because got back here in time. ·7 wasn't very much time to eat. There ·8 (Discussion off the record.) ·9 MR. PETROCELLI: 10 MR. FORGE: MR. PETROCELLI: MR. FORGE: 16 record. 17 BY MR. FORGE: 19 20 We're back on the record. 15 18 Are we back, ready to roll? 13 14 Next time we'll get you some vegetables. 11 12 Let's go. Q. Okay. Back on the Mr. Trump, are you aware of Mr. Sexton's sworn testimony as follows: "QUESTION: Did anybody at Trump 21 Org, The Trump Organization, review any of 22 the materials that you were preparing at 23 Trump U for use in the preview sessions? 24 "ANSWER: 25 Were you aware of that testimony? I don't believe so." Page 307 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 477 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 478 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 A. I was not. ·2 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge ·3 to dispute that testimony? ·4 ·5 ·6 ·7 ·8 ·9 MR. PETROCELLI: he's previously said? BY MR. FORGE: Q. A. 14 15 Are you -THE WITNESS: Should I answer the question? 12 13 Do you have any personal knowledge to dispute that testimony? 10 11 Other than what MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah, you can answer it. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Yes. 16 MR. PETROCELLI: 17 THE WITNESS: Asked and answered. I know we provided a 18 lot of written material. 19 about so many years ago, Jason. 20 material itself that was provided -- I know 21 I've seen packages of stuff. 22 at it and I reviewed it to an extent. 23 I know Michael Sexton obviously did, but 24 I've seen a lot of material. 25 You're talking The And I looked And I can't say specifically -- I mean, Page 308 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 478 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 479 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 if you give it to me -- at some point I'm ·2 sure you will, but if you give it to me, ·3 some of the material, I'll be able to tell ·4 you much better. ·5 BY MR. FORGE: ·6 Q. I'd have to see it. Again, Mr. Trump, we need to ·7 recognize there's a distinction between material ·8 that you see -- ·9 A. Right. 10 Q. -- and material that's actually 11 presented to the students. 12 13 14 What I'm asking about right now -A. I think I've seen most of the material. 15 Q. But do you have any personal 16 knowledge of the material that was actually 17 presented to the students? 18 19 20 21 MR. PETROCELLI: Time out. BY MR. FORGE: Q. I'm not asking what your expectation was -- 22 MR. PETROCELLI: 23 (Pause from the record.) 24 MR. PETROCELLI: Time out. Next question. 25 Page 309 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 479 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 480 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump BY MR. FORGE: Q. Again: ·3 "QUESTION: Did anybody at Trump ·4 Org, The Trump Organization, review any of ·5 the materials that you were preparing at ·6 Trump U for use in the preview sessions?" ·7 A. I'd have to see the answer. ·8 Q. The answer is: ·9 "ANSWER: 10 MR. PETROCELLI: 11 12 13 I don't believe so." He's reading Sexton's testimony. BY MR. FORGE: Q. All I'm asking is, other than -- 14 without seeing the materials, you have no basis 15 to dispute that; correct? 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. materials. Q. I do have. I'd like to see the I have to see the materials. Okay. But you don't have the materials in front of you right now -A. If you present me with the materials, I'll be able to tell you. Q. But without presenting you with materials, you're not able to tell me; correct? 24 A. No, I have to see the materials. 25 Q. In order to tell me. Page 310 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 480 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 481 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 A. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Yes. ·2 question properly. ·3 it. ·4 years ago. ·5 In order to answer your It's possible I very much saw But, you know, you're talking about ten Q. But we're also talking about the ·6 testimony of the man who actually ran Trump ·7 University; right? ·8 A. That's okay. ·9 Q. Right? 10 A. But he doesn't know. 11 12 saying yes or no. That's okay. He's saying he -- MR. PETROCELLI: You don't have the 13 deposition in front of you. 14 the record reflect -- 15 16 17 He's not THE WITNESS: He's -- let I'd like to see the material. MR. PETROCELLI: Just so the record 18 is clear, Mr. Forge is reading some 19 testimony from a prior deposition 20 apparently in this case or the related 21 Makaeff case from his mobile device. 22 MR. FORGE: Just so the record is 23 clear, this is from the sworn testimony for 24 the New York Attorney General. 25 page 160, lines 17 through line 21 I read This is at Page 311 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 481 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 482 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 first. ·2 ·3 MR. PETROCELLI: ·6 ·7 Of Michael Sexton's examination? ·4 ·5 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. FORGE: Yes, the Michael Sexton examination. BY MR. FORGE: Q. ·8 The next portion begins at line 22: "QUESTION: Did Donald Trump ever ·9 review any of the materials that you 10 prepared at Trump U to be used at the 11 preview sessions? 12 "ANSWER: 13 Again, do you have any personal I don't believe so." 14 knowledge that -- as to the accuracy or 15 inaccuracy of that testimony? 16 A. 17 18 I'd have to see the materials. MR. PETROCELLI: Asked and answered. BY MR. FORGE: 19 Q. Next question. 20 A. You're -- you used the word This is page 161. 21 "prepare" or did you use the word "review" the 22 materials? 23 24 25 Q. It said: "QUESTION: Did Donald Trump ever review any of the materials that you Page 312 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 482 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 483 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 prepared at Trump U to be used at the ·2 preview sessions?" ·3 ·4 ·5 ·6 MR. PETROCELLI: Michael Sexton prepared. BY MR. FORGE: Q. ·7 ·8 ·9 10 Meaning that And the answer is: "ANSWER: A. I don't believe so." I would have to look at the material before I could answer that question. Q. 11 Got it. Okay. So without looking at materials, you 12 can't -- 13 A. I can't -- 14 Q. -- refute or confirm that? 15 A. That is correct. 16 17 18 19 20 I have to see the material. Q. (Reading): "QUESTION: Switching over then to the three-day workshops/seminars" -MR. PETROCELLI: Let the record 21 reflect you're still reading from the 22 testimony? 23 MR. FORGE: 24 page 161, line 3. Yes. This is now 25 Page 313 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 483 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 484 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump BY MR. FORGE: Q. (Reading): "QUESTION: Switching over then to ·4 the three-day sessions/workshops/seminars, ·5 who prepared the materials for those? ·6 "ANSWER: We started with the ·7 materials and structures we had with them ·8 that we were comfortable using. ·9 were pretty straightforward, Real 10 Estate 101. 11 classes. 12 sophisticated about it. 13 touches on it. 14 grew quite a bit during this time frame. 15 You know, eventually we had our approved 16 sets of curriculum that went into our 17 approved workbook that was locked down, 18 formatted and authored by us. 19 was to always -- and our goal was always, 20 though -- when you are with somebody for 21 three days, you do want to let the 22 instructor have some latitude in -- in 23 providing some content of their own, 24 whether it is a case study of a particular 25 project they worked on or something of that Things It was introductory type of There wasn't anything We did put our own Eventually we had our -- we And our goal Page 314 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 484 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 485 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump nature." ·2 Continuing on to page 162, line 2: ·3 "ANSWER: So we -- our goal was ·4 80 percent you got to stick with the ·5 company program. ·6 20 percent make it your own. ·7 some customization at the instructor level. ·8 You can, you know, up to "QUESTION: So there was And who presented -- who ·9 prepared at Trump U that 80 percent? 10 that you and Mr. Highbloom? 11 "ANSWER: No, I don't recall. Was It 12 went through a number of iterations. 13 know we worked with Steve Miller on it for 14 a portion of it." 15 16 This is now further down the page, 162, line 22: 17 18 I "QUESTION: Who else worked on the curriculum for the three-day workshops? 19 "ANSWER: 20 Next page 163 -- oh, but -- and 21 there's an answer in there: 22 23 "ANSWER: But there would have been others." 24 25 I -- I don't recall." Next page, 1 -A. In all fairness, it was a long time Page 315 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 485 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 486 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ago. Q. ·3 Line 4, page 163: "QUESTION: Did anybody at Trump ·4 Organization work on the curriculum for the ·5 three-day workshops? ·6 "ANSWER: ·7 Do you have any basis to dispute -- ·8 ·9 No, they did not." any personal knowledge to dispute that testimony? A. No. I would have to see the 10 information you're talking about, but other than 11 that, no. 12 MR. PETROCELLI: I also would like 13 the record to reflect, since we don't have 14 a copy of the testimony in front of us and 15 Mr. Forge read that out loud from his 16 mobile device and it was a lengthy, lengthy 17 passage -- 18 19 20 21 22 MR. FORGE: That last passage wasn't lengthy. MR. PETROCELLI: thing you read was pretty long. MR. FORGE: That's just because I 23 wanted to make sure -- 24 MR. PETROCELLI: 25 Well, the whole I know, it's all context. Page 316 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 486 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 487 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 MR. FORGE: ·5 ·6 -- I was putting it in context. ·3 ·4 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. PETROCELLI: It's all context. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Next question and answer -- this is on page 163, line 8: ·7 "QUESTION: Did Mr. Trump himself ·8 participate in the creation of the ·9 materials used at the three-day workshops? 10 "ANSWER: 11 Do you have any basis or personal 12 13 14 knowledge to dispute that testimony? A. No, I don't. I'd have to look at the material, but I don't. 15 16 No, he did not." MR. FORGE: please. Can we get Tab 47, This is Exhibit 500. 17 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 500, Bates Nos. 18 TU102409 through 415, E-mail dated 10/27/08 19 from Sexton to Graff with attachments, 20 marked for identification.) 21 22 BY MR. FORGE: Q. Mr. Trump, I've placed in front of 23 you a document marked as Exhibit 500. 24 at TU102409 and continues to TU102415. 25 It begins Do you see that? Page 317 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 487 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 488 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 A. Yes. ·2 Q. And this is an e-mail with ·3 attachments from michael Sexton to Rhona Graff. ·4 ·5 Do you see that e-mail on the first page? ·6 A. Okay. ·7 Q. Who is Rhona Graff? ·8 A. Secretary, my secretary. ·9 Q. Still? 10 A. Yes, still. 11 Q. And the first line is, "Rhona, Yes. 12 attached are the PDFs of the advertisement that 13 Mr. Trump approved." 14 And if you turn to page TU102414 -- 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. -- you can see this is an ad for 17 presentations being held in Jamaica, New York in 18 November of 2008. 19 Do you see that? 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. If you look at the first paragraph, Yes. 22 last sentence, it says, "And now he's" -- 23 referring to you, "he's ready to share with 24 Americans like you his best advice on investing 25 in today's once-in-a-lifetime real estate Page 318 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 488 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 489 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump market." ·2 Do you know whether or not, at these ·3 seminars, the instructors presented your best ·4 advice? ·5 A. I think they did, yes. ·6 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge ·7 as to whether they did, in fact, present your ·8 best advice in investing in today's ·9 once-in-a-lifetime real estate market? 10 A. Well, they went over my career. 11 They went over my books. 12 or 14 books. 13 told you, I can't define what the date is in 14 terms of -- but I met with numerous instructors. 15 Michael Sexton was meeting me, you know, on a 16 regular basis and talking to me on a regular 17 basis, yeah. 18 Q. They -- I've written 12 I've spoken to -- I met -- as I Well, Michael Sexton was meeting 19 with you and talking to you on a regular basis in 20 the first year of Trump University; correct? 21 22 23 A. Well, I mean, I certainly talked to him quite a bit over the years. Q. Is it your testimony that you spoke 24 with Mr. Sexton on a monthly basis throughout the 25 entire time -Page 319 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 489 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 490 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 A. I can't tell you that. ·2 Q. -- of Trump University? ·3 A. Again, you're talking years ago. ·4 And that I can't tell you. ·5 of all of my books that were written. ·6 always stress that, read my books. ·7 frankly, if you read the books, how much more can ·8 I say when I write books like The Art of the ·9 Deal, like Surviving at the Top, like many of the 10 books. But people were aware Because, And that's my advice. 11 Q. So the books said it all? 12 A. The books say a lot, yes. 13 I would The books say a lot. 14 Q. Is there anything that you're aware 15 of that any of the live events instructors 16 presented to students that wasn't in your books? 17 A. I think everything I know is in the 18 books. 19 everything I know -- I couldn't -- if I sat with 20 you and talked to you for five hours, I could 21 never give you the knowledge that I have in my 22 books. 23 I mean, to be honest with you, I think Q. Do you have any personal knowledge 24 as to whether the instructors at these seminars 25 presented to the students themselves any of the Page 320 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 490 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 491 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump information from your books? A. Well, they were supposed to. I ·3 always -- I would always say get my books. ·4 books were many bestsellers. ·5 of knowledge in the books, especially the real ·6 estate books, the books on business. ·7 My A tremendous amount And in addition to that, we'd ·8 send -- through Meredith McIver would send a lot ·9 of information to the school. 10 a lot of knowledge in them. 11 greatly -- there was great detail in the books. 12 13 Q. And they were If we could, let's go back to -- let's go back to Exhibit 483. 14 15 But the books had MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you, Eileen. BY MR. FORGE: 16 Q. If you could -- 17 A. What page? 18 Q. Mr. Trump, turn to the second page, 19 page 2. 20 would always say to them, look at the books, look 21 at my books. You made a couple of references you 22 A. Yes, I think so. 23 Q. I'm just trying to make sure about 24 25 the same -A. Was it put in here? I don't even Page 321 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 491 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 492 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 know. ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Go ahead. Q. I want to make sure we're talking ·3 about the same "them." ·4 referring are the people listed in your response ·5 to -- ·6 A. ·7 ·8 ·9 10 The people to whom you're What are we talking here -MR. PETROCELLI: What's the question? BY MR. FORGE: Q. I'm sorry. 11 Interrogatory No. 10, near the 12 bottom of page 2, begins -- the people that 13 identified in here, Michael Sexton -- 14 15 16 17 MR. PETROCELLI: Can we just read the question out loud for the record? BY MR. FORGE: Q. I'm not really asking -- I'm not 18 reasking this question. 19 you to look at the names on here, Mr. Trump, and 20 then I'll ask you a question. 21 I'm just -- I just want We've got Michael Sexton on page 2. 22 And then if you turn to page 3, we have Don 23 Sexton, Gary Eldred, Jack Kaplan and 24 J.J. Childers. 25 When you were referring earlier to Page 322 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 492 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 493 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 you would always tell them to read my books, are ·2 those the individuals to whom you're referring? ·3 A. I believe so. Again, I don't ·4 remember these people because it's so many years ·5 ago, but I believe so. ·6 ·7 Q. Is there anyone else who's not listed on here -- ·8 A. I don't know. ·9 Q. No one that you can -- 10 A. I would tell -- I would tell -- who I don't know. 11 was it? 12 always tell him to read the books. 13 much more -- now that you'll have an instructor 14 and you'll present what's in the books, but 15 when -- if I sat down and talked to you, Jason, 16 for two hours, I couldn't -- I couldn't do nearly 17 as good a job as like The Art of the Deal. 18 Maybe it was Mr. Weisselberg. I would There's not Okay. So I would constantly -- and it was 19 very important to me -- and I think 20 Mr. Weisselberg -- because he dealt with them, 21 but I'd always say, look at the books. 22 23 24 25 Q. So the students weren't getting -- maybe this is the better way to ask it. The students weren't getting anything from Trump University that they couldn't Page 323 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 493 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 494 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump get from the books? ·2 A. No, because then they had the ·3 benefit of having the instructor on top of the ·4 book. ·5 they had the instructors on top of the book. So they had a combination of the book, but ·6 Q. Do you know of anything the ·7 instructors were able to add -- and I'm talking ·8 live events now -- anything useful the ·9 instructors were able to add beyond the books? 10 A. I don't think there's much -- you 11 know, I don't think there's that much beyond the 12 books. 13 The books were very detailed. Q. 14 15 So that's a no? MR. PETROCELLI: Whether you personally know. 16 THE WITNESS: Again, the 17 instructors -- you know, you heard where 18 they said you got to give them a little 19 leeway. 20 right. 21 BY MR. FORGE: 22 Q. 23 aware -- 24 A. 25 They have their own experiences, That's why I'm asking whether you're I didn't mind if they -- I heard they were given leeway, and I think that's fine. Page 324 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 494 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 495 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 If some instructor has some good experience, he ·2 should do that in addition to what I have. ·3 Q. But do you have any personal ·4 knowledge of the instructors providing any ·5 information of value beyond the books? ·6 A. Only what -- even what you said, the ·7 80/20 or whatever, the breakdown, I would ·8 certainly not stop an instructor from providing ·9 that additional balance beyond the book. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q. But you have no personal knowledge as to whether or not they did? A. I think they did. I'm sure they did, but I can't tell you what it is. Q. When you say you're sure they did, again, we have to -A. They have their own experiences, and 17 they were encouraged to give their own 18 experiences. 19 Q. But in terms of your personal 20 knowledge, you don't have any personal knowledge 21 of them actually -- 22 A. No. 23 Q. -- doing so? 24 A. What, the instructor is going to 25 stand there and not do anything? Page 325 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 495 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 496 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Q. No, they can stick to your books or stick to something else. ·3 ·4 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump A. If they stuck to my books, they got a very good education. ·5 Q. That I can tell you. ·6 That's what I'm getting at. Beyond the books, you don't have -- ·7 A. The books were a great education. ·8 Q. And beyond the books, you don't have ·9 any personal knowledge of anything being 10 presented to students -- 11 12 MR. PETROCELLI: Asked and answered. BY MR. FORGE: 13 Q. Right? 14 A. I think I've said it. 15 Q. So other than these names, in terms 16 of the people -- you mentioned Alan 17 Weisselberg -- any other potential person you 18 might have said make sure -- 19 A. What year is that? 21 Q. This is asking all the way from 2006 22 to the present. 23 A. 20 24 25 What year is this? Oh. Okay. I would say Alan Garten was another one that I would always -MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me. Page 326 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 496 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 497 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 The interrogatory was dated in 2012. ·2 MR. FORGE: ·3 supplemented -- ·4 ·5 ·6 ·7 MR. PETROCELLI: In September 2012. BY MR. FORGE: Q. other names? ·8 ·9 Well, it was As we sit here today, are there any That's just fine. MR. PETROCELLI: I'm correcting your statement -- 10 (Simultaneous cross-talk.) 11 THE WITNESS: 12 Garten. 13 BY MR. FORGE: 14 Q. Anyone else? 15 A. No. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 It could be Alan I would say Alan Garten would be the one. Q. Okay. So these names and possibly Alan Weisselberg and possibly Alan Garten. A. Correct. I'll think of other names, it's possible, but those are the names. Q. Mr. Trump, J.J. Childers was one of the names on there. 23 A. All right. 24 Q. Do you recall ever having any 25 Okay. substantive conversation with Mr. Childers, Page 327 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 497 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 498 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump anything beyond kind of a meet-and-greet? ·2 A. I don't remember. ·3 Q. If he testified that you never had a ·4 substantive conversation with him, would you have ·5 any basis to dispute that testimony? ·6 ·7 A. I mean, not really. I just -- I don't remember the meeting. ·8 Q. J.J. Childers -- make sure we're not ·9 confusing people. 10 personal attorney; right? J.J. Childers is not your 11 A. Not that I know of. 12 Q. And he never has been? 13 A. No. 14 something, but no. Unless he works for a firm or The answer is no. 15 MR. PETROCELLI: 16 MR. FORGE: Is he an attorney? J.J. Childers? 17 so. 18 have been at some point. 19 Maybe. I'm not sure. I think I think he may BY MR. FORGE: 20 Q. Mr. Trump, did you ever instruct any 21 of the Trump University instructors or mentors to 22 represent to students that you had handpicked 23 them? 24 25 MR. PETROCELLI: Can you repeat the question. Page 328 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 498 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 499 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 MR. FORGE: ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump I'm sorry. Let me be more specific. BY MR. FORGE: ·4 Q. Did you ever instruct any of the ·5 Trump University live events instructors or ·6 mentors to represent to students that you had ·7 handpicked them? ·8 A. Again, I can't differentiate between ·9 the live event and the other. 10 numerous instructors -- I mean, I met with 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. -- but I don't know the dates. I 13 don't know whether, as you say, it's live events 14 or other events. 15 over the years. 16 Q. 17 Let's pull 483 out again, Exhibit 483. 18 MR. PETROCELLI: 19 20 But I met with numerous people Is that the 2012 interrogatories? BY MR. FORGE: 21 Q. Again, referencing at page 3, those 22 individuals listed there, that's -- you can -- 23 did you ever instruct any of those individuals to 24 represent to students that you had handpicked 25 them? Page 329 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 499 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 500 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 A. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump I don't believe so. I mean, I don't ·2 think -- I'm not sure that I used that ·3 expression. ·4 been handpicked. ·5 years ago and I recognize the names and I had ·6 people up to my office. I don't think I said, oh, you've But -- and, again, it's many ·7 Q. Other than -- ·8 A. I think to my office, but I met ·9 people beyond the office, I think. 10 go ahead. 11 Q. But, anyway, Beyond these folks, who are the only 12 ones listed that you met -- beyond these folks, 13 some of the names you mentioned earlier -- Joe 14 Martin, the guy who was talking about the dinner, 15 did you ever authorize him to represent to 16 students that he had been handpicked by you? 17 A. 18 too long ago. 19 Q. 20 I don't really know who he is. It's Keith Sperry, did you ever authorize him to represent -- 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. So the answer is no as to all? 23 A. I did meet with people. 24 Q. Did you authorize anyone to falsely 25 Too long ago. represent to students that they had been Page 330 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 500 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 501 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump handpicked by you? ·2 A. No. I would never do that. ·3 Q. So if Steve Goff represented he had ·4 been handpicked by you and admitted that that ·5 wasn't true, is that something you would not have ·6 authorized? ·7 A. ·8 ·9 MR. PETROCELLI: 12 13 Improper -- time out. 10 11 Say it again -- Improper opinion testimony. BY MR. FORGE: Q. If Steve Goff has admitted that he was not handpicked by you -- 14 A. He had said he wasn't. 15 Q. He's admitted that he was not 16 handpicked by you. 17 saying differently to the students. 18 But we have recordings of him What I'm saying is, him representing 19 differently to the students, is that something 20 that wouldn't have been authorized by you? 21 22 MR. PETROCELLI: that. 23 THE WITNESS: 24 MR. PETROCELLI: 25 You can answer What? You can answer the question whether you authorized this fellow Page 331 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 501 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 502 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump to say he was handpicked by you. ·2 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't know ·3 because, you know, it depends on the ·4 definition of what that means, handpicked. ·5 I wanted very good instructors. ·6 basis of good instructors, if he's a good ·7 instructor and if he was -- you know, if he ·8 was in there, then he was a good ·9 instructor. 10 So I don't know. So on the I mean, I don't 11 know what he said, but as far as I'm 12 concerned, I just -- I wanted good 13 instructors. 14 And I wanted books. 15 the books. 16 And I wanted good material. I wanted them to study BY MR. FORGE: 17 Q. But you never actually sat down with 18 these live events instructors to make sure they 19 were good? 20 A. I don't know. Because I sat down 21 with instructors. 22 It was so many years ago that I don't know who 23 they were. 24 25 Q. I don't know who they were. They've testified they never met you. Page 332 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 502 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 503 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 A. ·2 ·3 ·4 ·5 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Oh, that's fine. MR. PETROCELLI: You know, we don't have the testimony -BY MR. FORGE: Q. So for someone like Steve Goff, do ·6 you have any basis to dispute his testimony that ·7 he never met you? ·8 MR. PETROCELLI: ·9 THE WITNESS: 10 I don't think I would, no. 11 MR. FORGE: 12 MR. PETROCELLI: 13 Let's go to Tab 205. Is that a new exhibit? 14 15 Lacks foundation. MR. FORGE: Yes. I'll give it an exhibit number in a minute. 16 MR. PETROCELLI: 17 MR. FORGE: We're up to 501. This is going to be a 18 video and audio exhibit or maybe just 19 audio. 20 what's going to be Exhibit 501. 21 22 23 Let's see. I'm going to play So, Eileen, we will get that on the drive to you, and that's on the disc. (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 501, No Bates 24 numbers, Audio Clip, marked for 25 identification.) Page 333 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 503 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 504 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. PETROCELLI: You're going to ·2 give her -- for each of these discs, you're ·3 going to give her a flash drive. ·4 MR. FORGE: ·5 MR. PETROCELLI: Exactly. Can you turn your ·6 laptop towards us because we can't see it. ·7 And the cord's in the way, too. ·8 ·9 MR. FORGE: I want to get this set up and then we'll -- 10 (Audio is played.) 11 THE WITNESS: 12 13 Thank you. Can I see it? BY MR. FORGE: Q. If it's what I intended it to be, 14 I'll rewind it and let you listen to it. 15 MR. PETROCELLI: 16 What are we listening to? 17 MR. FORGE: I believe it's a portion 18 of the deposition of Mr. Goff when an audio 19 was being played. 20 MR. PETROCELLI: 21 background audio. 22 MR. FORGE: 23 24 25 We can't hear the Right, I understand that. MR. PETROCELLI: Maybe just read the testimony. Page 334 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 504 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 505 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. FORGE: introduction. That was the It's just the audio. ·3 (Audio is played.) ·4 MR. FORGE: Starting to think this ·5 is not -- it's going beyond what it went in ·6 the deposition at this point. ·7 MR. PETROCELLI: ·8 ·9 Although it was very informative. BY MR. FORGE: 10 Q. So let me -- 11 A. Good speaker. 12 Q. Let me give you -- 13 MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah, very 14 inspiring. 15 Q. Let me give you -- 16 A. What's your problem? 17 Q. -- the deposition excerpt. 18 MR. FORGE: 19 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 502, No Bates We'll mark this as 502. 20 numbers, Transcript Excerpt, marked for 21 identification.) 22 THE WITNESS: 23 BY MR. FORGE: 24 Q. 25 Okay. Go ahead. Just direct your attention to page -- I will represent to you page 180. Page 335 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 505 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 506 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Do you see at line 21 -- ·2 A. Okay. ·3 Q. -- it says, "Audio playing"? ·4 Do you see that? ·5 A. Yeah. ·6 Q. I'll represent to you that it was ·7 playing that portion of the presentation which ·8 Mr. Goff was talking about being personally ·9 picked by you. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. And then it continues on at the next 12 page, at page 181, line 6: 13 "QUESTION: And that's you speaking. 14 Okay. 15 what you were told to say in this 16 recording, right, that Donald Trump had 17 personally picked you? 18 "ANSWER: 19 MR. PETROCELLI: 20 And, again, you were just following Correct." please. 21 MR. FORGE: 22 MR. PETROCELLI: 23 178? Yes, page 178 at line 15. 24 25 Can you read 178, MR. FORGE: No, I don't even have 178. Page 336 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 506 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 507 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 ·2 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. PETROCELLI: You just handed it to me. ·3 MR. FORGE: It's not even in my ·4 copy, but I'm already at 181. ·5 MR. PETROCELLI: I know, but it's ·6 the same question. ·7 witness under the completion doctrine, I ·8 think you need to read him -- ·9 10 MR. FORGE: has been noted. 11 12 And in fairness to the Okay. Page 7 of line -- MR. PETROCELLI: time out, Jason. Your objection Okay. I'm going to -It's important. 13 Could you please read to yourself -- 14 MR. FORGE: 15 Dan, that's entirely inappropriate. 16 MR. PETROCELLI: 17 MR. FORGE: 18 No, it's not. You can't interrupt an exam to have somebody read something else. 19 MR. PETROCELLI: 20 Read page 178, line 15. 21 That's nonsense. The question is: 22 "QUESTION: And you were told to say 23 that Donald Trump personally picked you; 24 right?" 25 That's precisely the same question Page 337 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 507 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 508 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump you're asking him now. ·2 ·3 MR. FORGE: inappropriate -- ·4 ·5 MR. PETROCELLI: cherry-pick. ·6 ·7 You can't You can't cherry-pick. MR. FORGE: I can show whatever I want to show. ·8 ·9 Dan, it is completely MR. PETROCELLI: Not under the completion doctrine, you're not allowed to. 10 MR. FORGE: Dan, you have a 11 misunderstanding of the rules of 12 deposition. 13 MR. PETROCELLI: 14 MR. FORGE: 15 MR. PETROCELLI: 16 17 18 21 I'm sure you do. The only problem is that we don't have a judge here. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Again -- 19 20 I'm sure I do not. MR. PETROCELLI: So let him read it. BY MR. FORGE: Q. 22 -- let me draw -MR. PETROCELLI: Let him read it to 23 himself, and then you can ask him about 24 181. 25 question and answer. But I wanted him to see the complete Page 338 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 508 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 509 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 THE WITNESS: ·2 because of Michael Sexton. ·3 ·4 He said I picked him MR. PETROCELLI: I just wanted him -- ·5 THE WITNESS: Michael Sexton was my ·6 representative, and I guess that's what he ·7 meant. ·8 ·9 10 11 It says it at 178. MR. PETROCELLI: It says more than that there. BY MR. FORGE: Q. 12 Page 181: "QUESTION: Okay. And, again, you 13 were just following what you were told to 14 say in this recording, right" -- 15 A. I'm talking about 178. 16 Q. I'm talking about 181. 17 MR. PETROCELLI: 18 you about 181. 19 178, but now go to 181. 20 21 22 Now he wants to ask He did not want to show you BY MR. FORGE: Q. This is line 7: "QUESTION: And, again, you were 23 just following what you were told to say in 24 this recording, right, that Donald Trump 25 had personally picked you? Page 339 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 509 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 510 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 "ANSWER: ·2 "QUESTION: ·3 That's correct. you've -- you've never met Trump; right? ·4 "ANSWER: ·5 "QUESTION: ·6 And just to follow up, No. So it's not true that he picked you?" ·7 There's an objection. ·8 "ANSWER: ·9 He didn't pick me, no." 10 11 Yeah, it's true. Do you see that, Mr. Trump? A. That's different than what 178 says. 12 Because 178, he was -- he's saying that because 13 it's Michael Sexton, he's -- Michael Sexton was 14 my arm. 15 Sexton picked me, that's, you know, similar 16 thing. 17 question you'd be asking me. 18 So, you know, he was saying that Michael So it's a very different kind of a Q. You agree with me that Michael 19 Sexton doing something is not the same as you 20 personally doing something; correct? 21 A. 22 23 24 25 No, I don't agree with that. MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. BY MR. FORGE: Q. So if Michael Sexton is brushing his teeth right now, is that the same thing as you Page 340 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 510 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 511 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump brushing your teeth right now? ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: Time out. ·3 It's an improper hypothetical. ·4 You can answer. ·5 THE WITNESS: Michael Sexton I ·6 assume picked him. ·7 representative. ·8 picked him. ·9 representative. 10 people in The Trump Organization, but I 11 hire them through people that work for me. 12 So Michael Sexton was my representative, my 13 personal representative. 14 And that's what he said in 78 -- 178. 15 16 17 18 Q. I mean, Michael Sexton is my I don't hire most of the He picked him. But he also said you did not personally pick him. A. Well -MR. PETROCELLI: The witness said that. 21 22 So he assumed that I BY MR. FORGE: 19 20 And Michael Sexton's my MR. FORGE: Right. BY MR. FORGE: 23 Q. And he also said -- 24 A. I'm not saying I did pick him. 25 Q. Right. Exactly. That's what I'm Page 341 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 511 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 512 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump getting at. ·2 You did not personally pick him; ·3 correct? ·4 A. I'm not saying I picked him, but ·5 Michael Sexton picked him and Michael Sexton is ·6 my arm. ·7 Q. ·8 met you. ·9 A. I don't think so, no. 10 Q. Okay. 11 But you did not -- he said he never You did not meet him; correct? And you did not personally pick him; correct? 12 MR. PETROCELLI: 13 THE WITNESS: 14 15 You mean Mr. Goff? I don't think so. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Did you authorize Mr. Goff to 16 represent to students that you, Donald Trump, had 17 personally picked him? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Is that the kind of -- is that the I never met him. 20 level of candor -- to falsely represent to 21 students that you had personally picked him, is 22 that the level of candor you expected from the 23 instructors at Trump University? 24 25 MR. PETROCELLI: in evidence. Assumes facts not It's argumentative and calls Page 342 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 512 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 513 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump for improper opinion testimony. ·2 You can answer. ·3 THE WITNESS: My representative ·4 handpicked him. ·5 executive. ·6 haven't heard this. ·7 picked him, and I assume -- because based ·8 on what he said in 178, my representative ·9 picked him. He was my -- he was my top And that's all I know. I But my representative So that's all I can say. 10 BY MR. FORGE: 11 Q. You agree -- 12 A. I didn't pick him myself, no. 13 Q. But you acknowledge, though, sir, 14 that it's -- it is a false statement for Mr. Goff 15 to say, Donald Trump personally picked me? 16 MR. PETROCELLI: Object to the 17 question as calling for improper opinion 18 testimony and assumes facts not in evidence 19 and misstates the record. 20 You can answer. 21 THE WITNESS: I guess he's saying I 22 picked him through my representative. 23 mean, I assume that's what he meant. 24 25 I BY MR. FORGE: Q. That's not what he said. He said, Page 343 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 513 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 514 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Donald Trump personally picked me. ·2 A. I'm just telling you -- ·3 MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. ·4 testimony is in the record. ·5 itself. ·6 you identified. ·7 His It speaks for And it goes beyond the one excerpt BY MR. FORGE: ·8 Q. What I'm asking you is, you heard ·9 what he represented to the students, that Donald 10 Trump personally picked me. 11 Is that true or false? 12 13 A. My representative, my number 1 -- my top person picked him. 14 Q. Not you? 15 A. No, it wasn't me, but a lot of 16 people would consider that to be an offshoot of 17 me. 18 19 Q. You weren't Steve Goff's partner, were you? 20 A. You -- I wasn't who? 21 Q. You weren't Steve Goff's partner, 22 were you? 23 time, did you? 24 A. 25 You didn't talk to Steve Goff all the No, I didn't speak to Steve Goff, no, but my representative picked him. Page 344 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 514 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 515 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 MR. FORGE: ·2 THE WITNESS: ·3 while because I got to go. ·4 Tab 57 -- MR. FORGE: Jason, another little The situation is what it ·5 is. ·6 we'll -- I'll take you at your word that ·7 you wouldn't have a problem with us ·8 continuing this at a later date. You know where I stand on it. ·9 10 MR. PETROCELLI: And He didn't give you his word. 11 MR. FORGE: 12 MR. PETROCELLI: Yes, he did. It doesn't matter 13 because I'm his lawyer, and you don't have 14 any right to ask him questions without 15 going through me that involve agreements 16 regarding the conduct of the deposition. 17 MR. FORGE: 18 MR. PETROCELLI: 19 And you know better than that. 20 21 He said what he said -- MR. FORGE: I didn't ask him. He said what he said. 22 MR. PETROCELLI: You're going to 23 have to go through me whether you like it 24 or not. 25 Full stop. MR. FORGE: He said what he said. Page 345 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 515 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 516 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 MR. PETROCELLI: ·2 MR. FORGE: It doesn't matter. Since it was off the ·3 record, I want to make sure it's on the ·4 record. ·5 MR. PETROCELLI: It's inappropriate ·6 for you to direct your question and comment ·7 to him in that regard, and I warned you ·8 about that before. ·9 MR. FORGE: 10 himself. 11 said it himself. 12 13 16 I didn't direct anything. MR. PETROCELLI: He You just work through counsel on those issues. 14 15 Dan, Mr. Trump said it THE WITNESS: Are you not going to be able to finish up today? BY MR. FORGE: 17 Q. I'm not going to finish up today. 18 A. You can't really finish up? 19 Q. No. 20 A. After all these hours, you can't 21 22 23 24 25 finish up? We're not -- I think it's disgraceful. MR. PETROCELLI: And it's the second session, no less. THE WITNESS: I think it's a filibuster, if you want to know the truth. Page 346 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 516 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 517 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump I think it's -- ·2 MR. PETROCELLI: Let's just get ·3 through the rest of the day. ·4 This is 503? ·5 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 503, Bates Nos. ·6 TU97065 through 85, Fast Track to ·7 Foreclosure Training, marked for ·8 identification.) ·9 BY MR. FORGE: 10 Q. Mr. Trump, this is -- Exhibit 503 is 11 a document that you and/or Trump University 12 provided in the course of this litigation. 13 14 MR. PETROCELLI: Again -- BY MR. FORGE: 15 Q. We've had this and/or throughout. 16 Let me just ask you, sir, Mr. Sexton left Trump 17 University in 2010; correct? 18 19 A. I don't know. I don't know what the date was. 20 Q. Do you have any reason to dispute -- 21 A. No. 22 Q. -- my representation that he left in 24 A. No, I don't. 25 Q. After 2010, was there -- was there 23 2010? Page 347 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 517 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 518 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 anybody else in a position of authority with ·2 Trump University other than you? ·3 A. I think -- who did I give that to? ·4 Maybe Mr. Garten, Mr. Weisselberg. ·5 Mr. Weisselberg and Mr. Garten. Maybe ·6 Q. Those are your employees? ·7 A. Yes. ·8 Q. Did they make the decision to sue They took it over. ·9 Tarla Makaeff, Mr. Garten and Mr. Weisselberg, or 10 did you? 11 A. I don't know. Well, she has a tape 12 that said it was wonderful. 13 probably I said, I think you should sue her. 14 think that was my decision. I think that was -I 15 Q. That was your decision? 16 A. I think so, yes. 17 Q. Turning to page TU97080 -- 18 A. She's the young lady that did the 19 tape; right? 20 Q. She did a tape. 21 A. She made a tape about how great the 22 school was? 23 Q. How great she thought it was. 24 A. Yeah. 25 How great she thought it was, yes. Page 348 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 518 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 519 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 Q. Like you thought -- ·2 A. Did you ever see this tape? ·3 unbelievable. ·4 Q. ·5 It's Like you thought George Pataki was great? ·6 Let's look at the first page first. ·7 The event is listed as Fast Track to Foreclosure ·8 Training, and the date is 2/13 through 15, 2009. ·9 10 Do you see that on the first page? First page, date is at the very top. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. Fourth line, instructor is Steve 13 Fine. Goff. 14 Do you see that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. This is a transcript of that 17 presentation. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. If you look to page TU97080. 20 MR. PETROCELLI: Again, for the 21 record, this is a lengthy document. 22 spans many, many pages. 23 him to look at what? 24 MR. FORGE: 25 MR. PETROCELLI: It And you're asking Page TU97080. The record will Page 349 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 519 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 520 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 reflect that the witness is not reading the ·2 entire document. ·3 BY MR. FORGE: ·4 ·5 Q. If we start with the paragraph that begins, "So you have my commitment." ·6 Do you see that, Mr. Trump? ·7 A. Yes. ·8 Q. "So you have my commitment with this ·9 program. 10 Okay. 11 phone, my e-mail address. 12 problem whatsoever, you give me a call. 13 Donald Trump's partner, I like that. 14 talk to him all the time. 15 or something happens or things are not going your 16 way, you call me and I will fix it like that 17 immediately. You have my brother's commitment. You are going to get my personal cell 18 If you have any Being Okay. I If you have a problem Okay." Now, you acknowledged just a few 19 minutes ago that you were not Steve Goff's 20 partner; correct? 21 A. That is true. 22 Q. So what he's saying here about him 23 being your partner, that was false; correct? 24 A. 25 it's hyperbole. It's hyperbole he's talking, but Page 350 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 520 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 521 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 Q. It's false? ·2 A. It's not true -- yes, it's false. ·3 Q. Did you -- did you authorize him to ·4 make that false representation to students? ·5 A. I don't think I've spoken to him. ·6 Q. Did you authorize anyone to make ·7 that kind of false representation to students? ·8 A. No. ·9 Q. He also says that "I talk to him all 10 the time." 11 12 No. And you said a few minutes ago that you didn't talk to Steve Goff ever; right? 13 A. That's true. 14 Q. That's also false; correct? 15 A. This is false, yes. 16 Q. Did you authorize him or anyone to 17 make that kind of false representation to 18 students? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Is that -- are those kinds of false I don't know him. No. 21 representations what you expected the instructors 22 to be presenting to students? 23 A. That's hyperbole, but it's -- no, I 24 did not speak to him. 25 somebody doing it. It's hyperbole. I can see But I did not authorize it, Page 351 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 521 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 522 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 no. ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Q. By "hyperbole," you're using that interchangeably with "false"; right? ·4 A. Well, it is false, yeah. ·5 Q. If we skip ahead to page TU97083 -- ·6 THE WITNESS: ·7 many. ·8 Q. One instructor of -- and if you look down the last ·9 third of the page, "His area of focus are 10 foreclosures, short sales, REOs, lease options, 11 wholesaling, 1031 exchanges, all forms of lending 12 and rehabbing. 13 going to book up quick. 14 talk to Chris and Michael and myself right away. 15 And let me give you the next person that I have 16 hand selected here. 17 Lucas. 18 experience as a real estate investor and ten 19 years as a real estate mentor." 20 Okay. Okay. Now, definitely he is So if you want him, you Okay. His name is Kerry He has got over 17 years of It's spelled a little differently, 21 but do you recognize that name, Kerry Lucas that 22 we -- 23 24 25 A. No, I don't. I've heard the name, but I don't know who he is. Q. That's the guy who admitted that Page 352 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 522 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 523 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 prior to 2009, he had never bought and sold real ·2 estate. ·3 A. Okay. ·4 Q. This is a presentation in February ·5 of 2009, and Steve Goff is representing that ·6 Kerry Lucas has over 17 years of experience as a ·7 real estate investor. ·8 Is that -- ·9 MR. PETROCELLI: 10 11 12 13 Are you suggesting that the statements are inconsistent? BY MR. FORGE: Q. Is that type of false representation -- 14 MR. PETROCELLI: I'm going to object 15 to that. 16 compare two statements and decide if 17 there's an inconsistency. 18 is argumentative. 19 There's -- it's not up to him to It lacks foundation. You can testify to your own personal 20 knowledge. 21 excerpts in the record. 22 23 24 25 So the question You're not here to compare THE WITNESS: I don't know either of them. MR. PETROCELLI: This doesn't say he bought and sold real estate for 17 years. Page 353 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 523 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 524 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump It says he was a real estate investor. ·2 MR. FORGE: ·3 MR. PETROCELLI: ·4 ·5 ·6 For 17 years. Who knows what that means? BY MR. FORGE: Q. ·7 Okay. So let's -- MR. PETROCELLI: Is it not the case ·8 that in Chris Lucas' [sic] excerpt that you ·9 showed us, there was some reference about 10 having some real estate activity other than 11 buying and selling real estate before 2009? 12 MR. FORGE: 13 No, that's not the case. 14 15 No, that's not the case. MR. PETROCELLI: percent sure? 16 MR. FORGE: 17 MR. PETROCELLI: 18 Yes. Do you want to pull it and show me? 19 20 Are you a hundred MR. FORGE: Pull it and prove a negative to you? 21 MR. PETROCELLI: Yes. Let me take a 22 look at it because I thought that I saw 23 something in there about before 2009. 24 25 MR. FORGE: want. Look at whatever you In the meantime, I'm going to ask Page 354 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 524 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 525 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 the question. ·2 ·3 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. PETROCELLI: number, please? What's the exhibit Exhibit 496. One second. ·4 (Pause from the record.) ·5 MR. FORGE: I think you're talking ·6 about the duplex that you mentioned ·7 earlier. ·8 ·9 THE WITNESS: Talking about the condominiums. 10 MR. FORGE: 11 MR. PETROCELLI: 12 "QUESTION: That was after. (Reading): So prior to '90 -- so 13 prior to 2009, it sounds like you hadn't 14 actually bought any real estate; is that 15 right? 16 17 18 19 "ANSWER: Right. rented out the properties that I had." MR. FORGE: No, then it was clarified -- 20 MR. PETROCELLI: 21 MR. FORGE: 22 Excuse me -- -- that one property was limited to a condo -- 23 MR. PETROCELLI: 24 MR. FORGE: 25 Just managed and Excuse me -- -- that he inherited from his mother. Page 355 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 525 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 526 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 MR. PETROCELLI: ·2 "QUESTION: ·3 (Reading): Did you say properties multiple or just the one from your mom? ·4 "ANSWER: Just the one from mom and ·5 then -- then the other two rentals for ·6 Tampa and St. Pete." ·7 Okay? ·8 "QUESTION: ·9 I'm talking prior to '99, though -- prior to 2009 though." 10 MR. FORGE: 11 MR. PETROCELLI: 12 (Reading): 13 "ANSWER: 14 "QUESTION: So prior to 2009, did MR. FORGE: He said no; right? 15 16 17 No, prior to 2009. 2009. No. you" -Is that one you glossed over, Dan? 18 MR. PETROCELLI: 19 "QUESTION: (Reading): -- did you not buy or 20 sell any real estate? 21 "ANSWER: 22 So from his testimony, it's obvious Right? Correct." 23 that he had some activity in real estate 24 prior to 2009 -- 25 MR. FORGE: Dan -Page 356 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 526 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 527 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. PETROCELLI: -- that did not ·2 involve buying or selling. And you're ·3 somehow trying to suggest that the ·4 statement "real estate investor over 17 ·5 years" is flatly inconsistent with his ·6 prior. ·7 But even if that were so -- ·8 MR. FORGE: Dan, if you knew -- if ·9 you knew what the testimony was, you would 10 know what you're saying right now is 11 erroneous. 12 13 MR. PETROCELLI: point -- 14 15 It might be, but my MR. FORGE: It's not might. It's for sure. 16 MR. PETROCELLI: It's not 17 appropriate to put this to this witness, 18 though, and have him do -- 19 20 BY MR. FORGE: Q. I'm not asking -- Mr. Trump, I'm not 21 asking you to say which one is true and which one 22 is false. 23 MR. PETROCELLI: No, no, no, but 24 you're assuming -- you're assuming there's 25 an inconsistency and there's a false Page 357 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 527 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 528 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump representation. ·2 MR. FORGE: Dan, you're limiting my ·3 time today. ·4 of foundation that I can lay for these ·5 questions. ·6 So you're limiting the amount BY MR. FORGE: ·7 Q. So what I'm asking you, Mr. Trump -- ·8 A. Let's go. ·9 Q. -- is to assume that Kerry Lucas 10 acknowledged that he had no experience buying and 11 selling real estate prior to 2009 and that the 12 only real estate experience he had other than 13 buying -- that would be nonbuying and selling, 14 would have been a couple of years of renting out 15 his mom's condominium that he inherited from her 16 for about $850 a month and in no way, shape or 17 form did he have 17 years of experience as a real 18 estate investor, and that he testified consistent 19 with that. 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. He's asking you to assume that. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Assume all that. Because, unlike Dan, I know what happened in that deposition. MR. PETROCELLI: You can disregard Page 358 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 528 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 529 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump that statement -- ·2 THE WITNESS: Fine. ·3 MR. PETROCELLI: -- because it's ·4 argumentative. ·5 hypothetical that he gave you. ·6 ·7 ·8 Just assume the THE WITNESS: Okay. BY MR. FORGE: Q. Okay. So if that's the case, if ·9 Kerry Lucas confirmed that he did not have over 10 17 years of experience as a real estate investor, 11 is this the type of hyperbole, otherwise known as 12 a false statement, that you expected of the Trump 13 University instructors, to get up in front of 14 students and represent that Mr. Lucas had over 17 15 years of experience as a real estate investor? 16 MR. PETROCELLI: I'm going to object 17 because you tried to put the words in the 18 witness' mouth. 19 equals false statement. 20 That's not his view. 21 object on that basis. 22 He never said hyperbole That's your view. So I'm going to I'm going to object on the ground 23 that the question is compound, it's vague, 24 it's overbroad and it's an incomplete and 25 improper hypothetical and seeks improper Page 359 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 529 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 530 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump opinion testimony. ·2 Subject to that, you can answer. ·3 THE WITNESS: Well, I think we ·4 started by saying this is one instructor ·5 out of many, many instructors. ·6 small class, a relatively small number of ·7 people. ·8 This is a So you can always have that. I would say that, you know, he has ·9 real estate, but he doesn't have much. 10 wouldn't be thrilled with him as an 11 instructor. 12 of a large number of people. 13 14 But this is a small class out BY MR. FORGE: Q. 15 16 I That doesn't answer my question. First of all, let's go back to your use of "hyperbole" in this context. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. I thought we clarified this earlier, 19 but your attorney apparently doesn't think so. 20 When you used the term "hyperbole" 21 in reference to Mr. Goff's representation that he 22 was your partner, you acknowledged that, in that 23 context, hyperbole means false; correct? 24 25 A. Well, when somebody -MR. PETROCELLI: Objection as vague Page 360 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 530 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 531 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump and ambiguous. ·2 THE WITNESS: When people say you're ·3 partners -- I mean, I see it all the time, ·4 where they say, I'm his partner, I'm his ·5 partner, I'm his partner. ·6 work together. ·7 estate say partner because they're talking ·8 about working together. ·9 10 11 12 They mean they A lot of people in real BY MR. FORGE: Q. But you didn't even work personally with Mr. Goff -A. Okay. But what I'm saying is the 13 word "puffery," which is a word that you would 14 understand very well -- puffery -- hyperbole, but 15 I think maybe puffery is better from a standpoint 16 of legal. 17 though, no. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. But, no. Okay. I didn't work with him, So it was false when he said being Donald Trump's partner; correct? A. Well, again -MR. PETROCELLI: The question is vague as to use of the word "partner." THE WITNESS: mean many things. The word "partner" can It doesn't mean -- 25 Page 361 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 531 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 532 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump BY MR. FORGE: ·2 Q. Is there any meaning of partner -- ·3 A. It doesn't mean -- it doesn't mean ·4 that you're a partner. ·5 course. ·6 enterprise. ·7 No, he's a partner in the He's a partner in the -- in the whole Q. Well, Mr. Trump, in this same ·8 passage, right -- immediately after saying he's ·9 your partner, he says, "I talk to him all the 10 time." 11 And that's false. A. That's false. 12 13 MR. PETROCELLI: That is. BY MR. FORGE: 14 Q. Okay. So when you used "hyperbole" 15 in reference to that, you were using it 16 interchangeably with "false"; correct? 17 18 19 A. That is false. Q. Okay. The last part is false. 20 So -- MR. PETROCELLI: I'll object -- time 21 out. I need to object to your prior 22 question on the ground that it was 23 compound. 24 embedded in there. 25 hyperbole equals false. There were several questions And he did not say So if you think Page 362 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 532 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 533 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 you have that answer, you don't have that ·2 answer. ·3 BY MR. FORGE: ·4 Q. You agree with me that when you used ·5 the word "hyperbole" to refer to "I talk to him ·6 all the time" -- ·7 A. Or puffery. ·8 Q. -- you were using -- ·9 A. Or puffery. 10 Q. -- you were using "hyperbole" 11 interchangeably with "false"; correct? 12 A. Well, it is false. He did not talk 13 to me. 14 of people relative to the overall group. 15 a very small, little limited group of people 16 we're talking about. I agree. 17 18 19 I also say it's a small group There's I have to -- MR. PETROCELLI: We can talk about it later. BY MR. FORGE: 20 Q. Now, were -- 21 A. Can this be your last question, 22 please? 23 Q. 24 this exhibit. 25 This is the last line. We'll finish Going back, if you could, please, Page 363 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 533 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 534 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 Exhibit 503, to same page, TU97083, just so we ·2 don't get caught up in distinguishing -- ·3 ·4 A. What page are you -- what page are you on? ·5 Q. 97083. ·6 A. Okay. ·7 Q. Do you see near the bottom, he's ·8 still talking about -- ·9 10 11 12 A. Is this the same guy you're talking about? Q. Yeah. This is now Steve Goff still talking about Kerry Lucas. 13 (Reading): 14 "QUESTION: Okay. So he has been running 15 his own business since 1992. 16 go over in a business? 17 "ANSWER: Yes. Does he not Since then he has 18 bought and held and sold properties all 19 over United States using both conventional 20 and creative financing." 21 So again, if you take my word for it 22 as the assumption that Mr. Lucas admitted that he 23 had not bought and sold -- you saw the 24 transcript -- he had not bought and sold any real 25 estate prior to 2009, is this the type of false Page 364 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 534 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 535 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 representation you wanted Trump University ·2 instructors to be making to students? ·3 MR. PETROCELLI: The question is ·4 vague, ambiguous. ·5 opinion testimony and lacks foundation. It seeks improper ·6 You can answer. ·7 THE WITNESS: ·8 ·9 10 11 12 No. BY MR. FORGE: Q. You mentioned earlier that Steve Goff is just one of several instructors; right? A. Well, I had numerous instructors, yes, sir. 13 Q. If you could, please -- 14 A. I think. 15 Again, you'd have to ask the people that run the company. 16 Q. Because you don't know personally. 17 A. No, I don't know. 18 MR. FORGE: Actually, I told you 19 that would be the last exhibit. 20 going on to the next exhibit. 21 THE WITNESS: 22 MR. PETROCELLI: 23 24 25 I'm not Thank you, everybody. Thank you, folks, very much. We'll see you back in Southern California. Page 365 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 535 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 536 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the ·2 record. ·3 deposition of Donald J. Trump. ·4 the record is 5:02 p.m. ·5 This concludes the video-recorded The time on (Examination concluded.) ·6 ·7 ·8 ·9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 366 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 536 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 537 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump DECLARATION UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY ·2 Case Name: Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·3 Date of Deposition: 12/10/2015 ·4 Job No.: 10020374 ·5 ·6 I, DONALD TRUMP, hereby certify ·7 under penalty of perjury under the laws of the State of ·8 ________________ that the foregoing is true and correct. ·9 Executed this ______ day of 10 __________________, 2015, at ____________________. 11 12 13 _________________________________ 14 DONALD TRUMP 15 16 NOTARIZATION (If Required) 17 State of ________________ 18 County of _______________ 19 Subscribed and sworn to (or affirmed) before me on 20 this _____ day of ____________, 20__, 21 by________________________, 22 basis of satisfactory evidence to be the person 23 who appeared before me. 24 Signature: ______________________________ (Seal) proved to me on the 25 Page 367 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 537 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 538 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump C E R T I F I C A T I O N ·2 ·3 STATE OF NEW YORK ·4 ·5 ) ) ss: COUNTY OF WESTCHESTER ) ·6 ·7 I, Eileen Mulvenna, CSR/RMR/CRR and a ·8 notary public within and for the State of New ·9 York, do hereby certify: 10 That I reported the proceedings in the 11 within-entitled matter, and that the within 12 transcript is a true record of such proceedings. 13 I further certify that I am not related 14 by blood or marriage to any of the parties in 15 this matter and that I am in no way interested in 16 the outcome of the matter. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set 17 18 my hand this 13th day of December, 2015. 19 20 · · · 21 -----------------------------Eileen Mulvenna, CSR/RMR/CRR 22 23 24 25 Page 368 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 538 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 539 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump ·1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump DEPOSITION ERRATA SHEET ·2 Case Name: Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump · · ·Name of Witness: Donald Trump Date of Deposition: 12/10/2015 ·3 · · ·Job No.: 10020374 Reason Codes: 1. To clarify the record. ·4 2. To conform to the facts. · · · 3. To correct transcription errors. ·5 ·6 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ ·7 From _______________________ to ________________________ ·8 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ ·9 From _______________________ to ________________________ 10 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ 11 From _______________________ to ________________________ 12 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ 13 From _______________________ to ________________________ 14 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ 15 From _______________________ to ________________________ 16 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ 17 From _______________________ to ________________________ 18 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ 19 From _______________________ to ________________________ 20 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ 21 From _______________________ to ________________________ 22 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ 23 From _______________________ to ________________________ 24 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ 25 From _______________________ to ________________________ Page 369 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 539 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 540 of 669 Confidential Donald Trump Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump ·1 DEPOSITION ERRATA SHEET ·2 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ ·3 From _______________________ to ________________________ ·4 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ ·5 From _______________________ to ________________________ ·6 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ ·7 From _______________________ to ________________________ ·8 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ ·9 From _______________________ to ________________________ 10 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ 11 From _______________________ to ________________________ 12 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ 13 From _______________________ to ________________________ 14 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ 15 From _______________________ to ________________________ 16 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ 17 From _______________________ to ________________________ 18 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ 19 From _______________________ to ________________________ 20 Page _____ Line ______ Reason ______ 21 From _______________________ to ________________________ 22 _______ · · · 23 _______ · · · 24 · · · 25 Subject to the above changes, I certify that the transcript is true and correct No changes have been made. I certify that the transcript is true and correct. _____________________________________ DONALD TRUMP Page 370 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 540 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 541 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ART COHEN, Individually) and on Behalf of All ) Others Similarly )No. 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Situated, ) ) CLASS ACTION Plaintiff, ) ) VS. ) ) DONALD J. TRUMP, ) ) Defendant. ) 10 11 12 13 14 CONFIDENTIAL TRANSCRIPT 15 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DONALD J. TRUMP 16 VOLUME II (Pages 371 to 485) 17 January 21, 2016 18 Las Vegas, Nevada 19 20 21 22 Reported By: 23 Gale Salerno 24 RMR, CSR No. 12375 25 Job No.: 10021313 Page 371 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 541 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 542 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 2 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ART COHEN, Individually) and on Behalf of All ) Others Similarly )No. 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Situated, ) ) CLASS ACTION Plaintiff, ) ) VS. ) ) DONALD J. TRUMP, ) ) Defendant. ) 10 11 12 13 14 15 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DONALD J. TRUMP 16 VOLUME II (Pages 371 to 485) 17 18 19 Deposition of DONALD J. TRUMP, taken on behalf of the 20 Class Counsel at 2000 Fashion Show Drive, Room 6104, 21 Las Vegas, Nevada, 89109, beginning at 8:01 a.m. and 22 ending at 10:53 a.m. on Thursday, January 21, 2016, 23 before Gale Salerno, Registered Merit Reporter, 24 Certified Shorthand Reporter No. 12375. 25 Page 372 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 542 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 543 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 APPEARANCES: 2 For the Plaintiff and the Class: 3 4 5 6 7 JASON A. FORGE, ESQUIRE RACHEL L. JENSEN, ESQUIRE CHARLES M. McCUE, ESQUIRE Robbins Geller Rudman & Dowd, LLP 655 West Broadway, Suite 1900 San Diego, California 92101 (619) 231-1058 jforge@rgrdlaw.com rjensen@rgrdlaw.com chuckmccue@rgrdlaw.com 8 9 10 11 12 For the Defendant, Donald J. Trump: DANIEL PETROCELLI, ESQUIRE O'Melveny & Myers, LLP 1999 Avenue of the Stars, 7th Floor Los Angeles, California 90067 (310) 246-6850 dpetrocelli@omm.com 13 14 15 16 17 For the Defendant, Mr. Trump and Trump University: JILL A. MARTIN, ESQUIRE Trump National Golf Club One Trump National Drive Rancho Palos Verdes, California (310) 303-3225 jmartin@trumpnational.com 90275 18 19 20 Also Present: MS. BECKY ULREY, Videographer 21 22 23 24 25 Page 373 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 543 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 544 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump INDEX 2 WITNESS 3 DONALD J. TRUMP 4 Examination Resumed by Mr. Forge Page 377 5 6 7 8 9 10 EXHIBITS Trump Marked Exhibit 489 This Week Transcript, Donald Trump (Previously Marked) 467 Exhibit 504 National Review Article dated December 8, 2015 377 14 Exhibit 505 The Trump Blog, Bates TU65237 380 15 Exhibit 506 The Trump Blog, Bates TU67769 381 16 Exhibit 507 The Trump Blog, Bates TU65243 383 17 Exhibit 508 Trump Insider Newsletter, Bates TU70116 to 117 383 19 Exhibit 509 Video on Thumbdrive 387 20 Exhibit 510 Special Invitation, Bates TU25218 to 19 391 Exhibit 511 Special Invitation, Bates TU25238 to 39 391 Exhibit 512 Special Invitation, Bates TU25206, Four Pages 391 11 12 13 18 21 22 23 24 25 Page 374 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 544 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 545 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Exhibit 513 Advertisement for Trump University, Bates TU25674 404 Exhibit 514 Special Invitation, Bates TU25313, Three Pages 405 5 Exhibit 515 Video on Thumbdrive 408 6 Exhibit 516 Index of Materials From Trump University's Life Events 437 8 Exhibit 516-A Video From Thumbdrive 440 9 Exhibit 517 General Ledger Printout, Bates DT0026972 to 75 441 Exhibit 517-A Detail General Ledger, Bates DT0026971 443 Exhibit 518 Interview Given to Steven Brill, Time Magazine 445 15 Exhibit 519 The Trump Blog, Bates TU68112 456 16 Exhibit 520 The Trump Blog, Bates TU67580 461 17 Exhibit 521 Collection of Ads For Trump University 476 Exhibit 522 E-Mail Chain, First One From James Harris to Michael Sexton dated February 12, 2009, Bates TRUMP 00207915 to 7918 479 2 3 4 7 10 11 12 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 375 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 545 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 546 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DONALD J. TRUMP 2 VOLUME II 3 January 21, 2016 4 - 5 - THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins the 6 videotaped deposition of Donald J. Trump, Volume II. 7 Today's date is January 21st, 2016, and the time is 8 8:01 a.m. 9 We are at Trump International Hotel, 10 2000 Fashion Show Drive, in Las Vegas, Nevada, for 11 the matter entitled Art Cohen, individually and on 12 behalf of all others similarly situated, versus 13 Donald J. Trump, case number 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG, 14 in the United States District Court, Southern 15 District of California. 16 I am the videographer, Becky Ulrey. The 17 court reporter is Gale Salerno. 18 Aptus Court Reporting of San Diego, California. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 We are representing Will counsel please identify yourselves, and then the reporter will administer the oath. MR. FORGE: Jason Forge, on behalf of Mr. Cohen and the Class. MS. JENSEN: Rachel Jensen, on behalf of the Plaintiff and the Class. MR. McCUE: Charles McCue, on behalf of the Page 376 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 546 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 547 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Plaintiff and the Class. 2 3 MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Trump. 4 5 Daniel Petrocelli, for MS. MARTIN: Jill Martin, for Mr. Trump and Trump University. 6 - 7 - - DONALD J. TRUMP, 8 having been first duly sworn, was 9 examined and testified as follows: 10 - - - 11 12 EXAMINATION RESUMED 13 BY MR. FORGE: 14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Trump. 15 A. Good morning. 16 MR. FORGE: If I could ask the court 17 reporter to please mark this document as 18 Exhibit 504. 19 (Exhibit 504 was marked for 20 identification.) 21 BY MR. FORGE: 22 Q. I have just handed to you Exhibit 504. 23 It's a National Review article from December 8th, 24 2015, which is titled, "No one was more influential 25 than Donald Trump this year." Page 377 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 547 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 548 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential 1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Are you familiar with that article? 2 A. No, I'm not. 3 Q. Do you consider yourself an influential 4 person? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And in what way are you influential? 7 A. Well, I think I've set a certain standard. 8 I think I have certain leadership abilities. I think 9 in business I'm respected, and I would say that I 10 guess now in politics I'm respected, because I'm the 11 leading candidate on the Republican side. 12 Q. 13 trustworthy? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you want people to consider you 16 Do you want people to consider you reliable? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did you get a sense that your level of 19 influence grew after The Apprentice show started? 20 MR. PETROCELLI: 21 THE WITNESS: The question is vague. I would say not really. The 22 reason I was chosen for The Apprentice is my level of 23 influence. 24 25 But it possibly -- I think not necessarily influence, I think I became even better known. Page 378 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 548 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 549 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 BY MR. FORGE: 2 Q. And by "better known," do you have fans? 3 A. Yeah, I do. 4 Q. And if you consider someone to be a fan, 5 6 what does that mean to you? A. People that really like a person and 7 respect a person. 8 certainly like. 9 Q. I guess generally respect, but Now, over the years you've promoted a 10 variety of products, properties and services; is that 11 fair to say? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Resorts? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Condominium projects? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Books? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Products such as ties? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. Is that a yes? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Chocolates? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And a fragrance, I believe? Golf courses? Page 379 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 549 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 550 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. Now, sometimes you promote things that you 3 own, such as a building that you might own and 4 actually manage? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. And other times you promote things that 7 other people own; is that right? 8 licensing agreement? So under a 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. When you promote somebody else's project or 11 12 13 service, do you generally do it for a fee? A. Of some kind, yes. All different, but of some kind. 14 15 Yes. MR. FORGE: If we could mark this as Exhibit 505. 16 (Exhibit 505 was marked for 17 identification.) 18 BY MR. FORGE: 19 Q. Mr. Trump, if you could take a minute to 20 look at Exhibit 505 and just confirm for the record, 21 if you could, please, that that is a one-page 22 document, and it's a Trump blog posted by Donald J. 23 Trump on 6/28/2005. 24 25 A. It's kind of small print, but -- Yes, it is very small. Yes, it is. Page 380 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 550 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 551 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Q. Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Now, in here in the last sentence of the 2 first paragraph, you wrote, "The Trump brand carries 3 a promise that whatever bears the name will be 4 elite." 5 6 Is that consistent with the image that you've cultivated over the years for the Trump brand? 7 A. I tried to make it that way, yes. 8 Q. In the third paragraph it begins, "The 9 Trump name carries with it a price tag. People pay a 10 lot more to live or rent commercial space in my 11 buildings because of the association with me and my 12 ideals." 13 Is that also true? 14 A. I think so, yes. 15 Q. The next document, Exhibit 506. 16 (Exhibit 506 was marked for 17 identification.) 18 BY MR. FORGE: 19 Q. If you could, please, Mr. Trump, confirm 20 that Exhibit 506 is a true and correct copy of The 21 Trump Blog from June 12th, 2008, posted by Donald J. 22 Trump on that date. 23 A. Yes, it is. 24 Q. If you look in the fourth paragraph, you're 25 quoting something your father used to tell you, which Page 381 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 551 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 552 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 is, "know everything you can about what you're 2 doing." 3 A. Right. 4 Q. And then you write, "I've followed that 5 advice too, and I think it's apparent that it works. 6 I'm very thorough, as he was, and it can save you a 7 lot of time in the long run." 8 Is that what you wrote in the blog? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, in terms of writing these type of 11 sentiments and publishing them, is that thoroughness 12 part of the Trump image, your attention to details? 13 A. I really don't know. I mean, I can't tell 14 you if it's part of the image. 15 involved in details as much as I can reasonably. 16 I like to get I have many, many transactions. 17 knows that. 18 on every deal. 19 people running different transactions. 20 and I also discuss that. 21 good people, to run things because I can't get 22 involved in all of the details. 23 Q. Many deals. Everyone And I can't go into details I have people; I have very good And I rely -- I mean, I rely on people, In terms of the sentiment you expressed 24 here, which is, "know everything you can about what 25 you're doing," is one of the reasons why you're Page 382 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 552 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 553 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 putting that out there, is to tell people that when 2 they buy the Trump brand, they're getting something 3 that you know everything about? 4 A. Well, I think within reason, yeah. I mean, 5 I also think people know that I'm not going to be, 6 you know, involved in every little thing of every 7 deal, because I have deals all over the world. 8 have many deals right now. 9 I As an example, right now all over the 10 world, in addition to running for president, but I 11 have deals going up all over the world. 12 obviously, I can't do them myself, and people 13 understand that. 14 Q. So So within reason, you're trying to express 15 the sentiment that you know everything you can, but 16 you're also a practical person? 17 A. Yeah. Within practicality, yes. 18 (Exhibits 507 and 508 were marked 19 for identification.) 20 BY MR. FORGE: 21 Q. Starting with Exhibit 507, Mr. Trump, can 22 you just confirm that appears to be a true and 23 correct copy of The Trump Blog from -- that you 24 posted on June 8th, 2005? 25 A. Yes. Page 383 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 553 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 554 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Q. Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump If you look at the end of the first 2 paragraph, it reads, "It's good common sense that 3 risk -- always an essential feature of business -- is 4 substantially reduced when you make an effort to 5 learn everything you can about what you're getting 6 yourself into." 7 Did I read that accurately? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And is it fair to say that one of the 10 messages you're trying to convey with that sentiment 11 is that the Trump brand carries a low risk of not 12 getting what you pay for because you're in charge and 13 you try to, within practical limits, learn everything 14 you can about anything that bears your name? 15 16 MR. PETROCELLI: The question is vague and overbroad. 17 You can answer. 18 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't think I'm 19 saying that. 20 if you can learn more, your risk goes down a little 21 bit, but I'm not saying having to do with me. 22 saying having to do with general and people and life, 23 and that there is a big risk to life and a risk to 24 deals. 25 I'm just saying that there is risk, but I'm And if you can learn -- if you can learn Page 384 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 554 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 555 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 things about specific industries or whatever you may 2 be doing, perhaps your risk is going to be somewhat 3 lessened. 4 get rid of risk. 5 BY MR. FORGE: 6 Q. But there's always risk. You can never If you could, turn to Exhibit 508, the 7 second document I handed you, and just confirm that 8 it appears to be a Trump Insider Newsletter by you. 9 It is not -- it is not dated on the first page, I 10 don't believe. 11 but does it appear to be a Trump newsletter titled 12 The Importance of Education Will Open the Door of 13 Knowledge? 14 A. And I don't see a date on the second, I haven't seen this, I don't believe. But 15 it appears -- it's a long time ago, but it appears to 16 be, yes. 17 Q. And if we look at the fourth paragraph 18 down -- I'm sorry, fifth paragraph down, the sentence 19 that reads, "These days we have few excuses for 20 maintaining a blind spot." 21 Do you see that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And that's what you wrote in this blog? 24 25 Did I read that accurately? A. Yes. Page 385 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 555 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 556 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Q. Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Now, Mr. Trump, generally speaking, do you 2 believe that it's profitable -- a profitable business 3 decision for others to pay you to promote their 4 projects or products? 5 A. Well, it has been. It continues to be. 6 Q. And do you set your fee based on your 7 expectations of the value of your endorsement to the 8 particular business or project? 9 A. Well, each project is very different, and 10 totally different fee structures. 11 pure cash fee structure. 12 of profits. 13 Sometimes it's a Sometimes it's a percentage Sometimes it's a percentage of gross. It's always -- I mean, we don't have a set 14 formula. 15 do with the expectation of the person wanting the 16 name or wanting the brand. 17 Q. It's always different. A lot of it has to And by being profitable for the business, 18 that means basically that your endorsement brings in 19 more customers and more revenue from the customers 20 than they're paying you; is that fair? 21 A. Hopefully, yes. 22 Q. And historically, you've seen that to be 24 A. I would say yes. 25 Q. So whether it's promoting something that 23 true? Page 386 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 556 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 557 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 you own or promoting something that someone else 2 owns, the purpose of the promotion is to try to 3 influence other people's purchase decisions; is that 4 fair? 5 6 A. product, yeah. 7 8 Well, to show that the product is a good Q. And -- yeah, essentially. I'm going to play you a video exhibit, Mr. Trump. 9 MR. FORGE: And just for the record, Dan, 10 the same thing we did the last time. I have got all 11 these videos on this thumbdrive. 12 file number, and at the end we'll just delete the 13 ones we didn't use, and leave everything with the 14 court reporter, if that's acceptable to you? I'll identify the 15 MR. PETROCELLI: 16 Last time you had these little CDs. 17 MR. FORGE: you. 20 21 22 I have CDs for you to take with Do you want to do that after? MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah, you can do that after. MR. FORGE: This first one is, we're going 23 to call it Exhibit 509. 24 it is file 204 on this thumbdrive. 25 You don't have those today? 18 19 Sure. Just for the record, though, (Exhibit 509 was marked for Page 387 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 557 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 558 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 2 identification.) (Playing Video From Thumbdrive Marked Exhibit 509.) 3 BY MR. FORGE: 4 Q. 5 Mr. Trump, you shot that video to promote Trump University, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. So you made that video to influence people 8 A long time ago. to enroll in Trump University? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, at one point you mentioned that there 11 would be professors and adjunct professors. 12 have any idea what, if any, criteria determined who 13 would be a professor versus an adjunct professor? 14 A. Do you Well, I see resumes, but mostly that was up 15 to Michael Sexton, who was the president who ran 16 Trump University. 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q. So that's not a decision process you were involved in, who would be a professor versus -A. I would see resumes, but I told him, you know, I want very good people, yes. Q. But in terms of determining this person will be a professor versus an adjunct professor -- 23 A. No, that was not me. 24 Q. Do you know if any of the adjunct 25 professors at Trump University were ever promoted to Page 388 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 558 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 559 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump become professors? A. That I wouldn't know. I was not running the school. Q. Do you know the identities of any of the adjunct professors? A. I know names, but I really don't know the identities, no. Q. Were all the instructors at Trump University either a professor or an adjunct professor? A. I would rather have you ask Mr. Sexton. He ran the school. 13 Q. So you personally don't know? 14 A. No, I don't know that. 15 Q. You mentioned in there that the people at 16 Trump University that you were going to be putting 17 forward were going to be the best of the best. 18 What does that mean to you? 19 A. 20 instructors. 21 instructors, and I so instructed the people. 22 Well, I mean, they had to be good And I wanted them to be good I instructed Mr. Sexton we want to really 23 have really great people working there. 24 running it. 25 have really good people. He was I wasn't running it, but I wanted to Page 389 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 559 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 560 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 Q. 2 instructors? 3 instructors and mentors. 4 instructors and mentors, can you identify any that 5 you personally consider to be the best of the best? 6 A. Can you identify any of the live events And by "live events," I mean in person Any of those live events I just recognize names. It's too long ago; 7 it's many years ago, and I just recognize names now. 8 It's so long. 9 But I know they had some very, very good 10 instructors. 11 not up to me. 12 Q. 13 14 15 16 But that was really up to Mr. Sexton, So when you say you recognize names, recognize names of -- and again, this -A. People who worked there. I'm talking people that worked there. Q. I want to make sure we're distinguishing 17 between the live events, which was something that 18 Trump University started in the later years, which is 19 in-person instruction, versus the Internet learning, 20 which is where it began. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. And so in terms of recognizing names, we 23 went through a bunch of names the last time. I'm not 24 going to put you through that again. 25 a number of names you didn't recognize the last time. But there were Page 390 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 560 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 561 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 A. Right. 2 Q. Are there -- do any of those names, have 3 you had a recognition of any of those names? 4 those names come to mind now as we sit here? Any of 5 A. No. 6 Q. So same memory or lack thereof, whatever 7 8 your answers were still stand? A. 9 10 It's a long time. THE WITNESS: Just off the record for a second. 11 (A discussion was held off the record.) 12 MR. FORGE: 13 next exhibit as 510. If we could please mark this 14 (Exhibits 510, 511 and 512 were 15 marked for identification.) 16 BY MR. FORGE: 17 Q. Mr. Trump, starting with Exhibit 510, does 18 that appear to be a true copy of a special invitation 19 from Donald J. Trump, and an attached letter that 20 begins Dear Friend? 21 22 23 24 25 A. It does seem to be. I don't remember this, but it does seem to be, yes. Q. And that appears to be your signature at the bottom of that invitation on the second page? A. Yes. Page 391 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 561 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 562 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 2 Q. Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump And this invitation is all part of the promotion of Trump University; is that fair to say? 3 A. It looks like it. 4 Q. So again, this is something that was 5 intended to influence people to enroll in Trump 6 University? 7 A. It would look that way, yes. 8 Q. Were you personally aware of any sort of 9 10 proven real estate system that students would be learning at Trump University? 11 MR. PETROCELLI: 12 THE WITNESS: The question is vague. Well, what I did is we gave a 13 lot of big packages out. 14 ago, but -- and including books that I've written, 15 et cetera, et cetera. 16 Again, it's a long time You have the information. But there is -- you know, there are methods 17 that have been very successful for me, and that's 18 what I would talk about. 19 with location. Starting with, you know, various 20 forms of debt. We talked about the kind of debt you 21 can put on properties. 22 And, you know, starting And we talked about a lot of different 23 things. You can look at the books. But I've 24 always -- and very strongly told them to stress 25 location. Page 392 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 562 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 563 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump I also put words out when I felt markets -- 2 I've been very good at predicting markets, like the 3 recent market. I've been very good at predicting 4 over the years. And I've had many people, and I 5 think they will be witnesses when the trial comes 6 about, they were very thankful to me because I 7 predicted markets both up and down. 8 people that, you know, this is what I think is going 9 to happen. 10 And I would tell When people got caught in the early years 11 with the bad -- with the, you know, exploding debt, I 12 predicted that was going to happen so accurately. 13 And I would pass the word. 14 And I've had more people thank me for 15 keeping them out of real estate as well as keeping 16 them -- as well as getting them in. 17 So I've been good at predicting markets, as 18 you probably have read or heard. 19 BY MR. FORGE: 20 Q. 21 22 23 24 25 Does that summarize what it is about the proven real estate system? A. Yeah, well, I think it's a system that I've been using, yes. Q. Now, you mentioned that these are things that you talk about. You're saying talk about in Page 393 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 563 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 564 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 A. Well, and I talk about at speeches, and I talk about elsewhere. 4 5 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump your books, right? 2 3 Confidential Q. Sure. But you don't mean actually talk about to the Trump University students? 6 A. Well, I think that I would tell Michael. 7 would tell other people, you know, I'm feeling bad 8 about the market or I'm feeling good about the 9 market, I hope you can get that word out. 10 Q. But as far as personally conveying -- 11 A. No, not personally, no. 12 Q. And as far as personally verifying that I 13 live events instructors were getting that word out, 14 you didn't personally verify that they were -- 15 A. No, I didn't. Because who knows if you're 16 right? You know, it's just a guesstimate, so who 17 knows? But it was my feeling, and I was right. 18 Q. But timing and location are key? 19 A. Very important. 20 Q. Any other aspects, significant aspects of 21 the system? 22 A. Well, the method of financing, where you 23 get your financing, who you're getting your financing 24 from. 25 The rate is always very important, Page 394 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 564 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 565 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 depending on what you're doing. 2 financing you're getting. 3 relates to the different types of property you're 4 talking about. 5 And the amount of How it -- you know, how it You know, we gave very extensive manuals on 6 things. 7 manuals and other books and things that they got as 8 part of the course. 9 And I think it's very much covered in the Q. Okay. And the amount of financing you're 10 getting, you mentioned how it relates to the 11 different types of property, you're talking, were 12 you -- have you financed properties in the past with 13 no money down? 14 A. Yes, I have. 15 Q. When would you say was the most recent time 16 you've done that? 17 A. Well, it was a while ago when the lenders 18 were going absolutely crazy, when they were just 19 throwing money at you. 20 down. 21 you own a property. In fact, not only no money Where you walk out with money on the table and 22 But, you know, then you had the banks 23 explode. So it was an epic crash that took down the 24 world, or almost took down the world during those 25 times. Page 395 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 565 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 566 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 2 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Today I think it's a little bit more conservative, but you can get 80 percent financing. 3 But there was a time, Jason, where you 4 could get 100 percent plus plus plus, and plenty of, 5 you know, money left over. 6 banking crisis. 7 8 Q. And that led to a real And the banking crisis was demonstrated by all the foreclosures going on? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. So that period where you could get these 11 properties with no money down and possibly a plus 12 plus plus, that predated and actually led to all the 13 foreclosures, right? 14 A. That led to a lot of problems, and believe 15 it or not, we're probably getting there again, from 16 what I'm seeing. 17 now. 18 time for Trump University. 19 people that would like to sign up. 20 It's pretty easy to get money right And this interestingly would be a very good Q. There would a lot of And this would be one of those times when 21 you would probably tell people this is not a great 22 time to get into -- 23 A. I would say that this maybe is not a great 24 time because it's so overheated, and that's what I 25 told them in the past, and I was right about it. Page 396 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 566 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 567 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 This would not be a great time. 2 word to get out to people actually, because a lot of 3 people are going into real estate they shouldn't be 4 right now. 5 Q. It would be a good The next exhibit is Exhibit 511. If you 6 can just take a look at that and confirm that that 7 appears to be a true copy of another special 8 invitation from you. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. Is that -- 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And that -- again, that is part of the 13 14 15 16 17 promotion of Trump University? A. It would look like it. this, but the people that ran Trump University. Q. The next is Exhibit 512. Same thing, another invitation -- 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. -- from you? 20 21 I mean, I didn't do Another thing, another invitation is part of the promotion of Trump University? 22 A. It looks like it, yes. 23 Q. You mentioned earlier something that I 24 think most people would agree with, it's impossible 25 to eliminate risk? Page 397 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 567 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 568 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 A. Totally impossible. 2 Q. So -- 3 A. The safest deal -- I've seen deals that 4 were 100 percent and they didn't go well. 5 deals that had no chance and they were great deals. 6 7 8 9 Q. I've seen So there's no such thing as an airtight strategy? A. The greatest businessman in the world, Carl Icahn, many of the greatest businessmen in the 10 world, I mean, I've seen them go into deals that were 11 horrendous, that they were extremely excited about, 12 and they thought they were going to be good. 13 of mine that do deals, and they're the best 14 dealmakers in the world. 15 are so bad that they will lose a fortune. 16 how good you are, because things happen. 17 and lots of crazy -- 18 Q. They will hit deals that talking about strategies. 20 sure thing strategy, right? 22 A. No matter The economy You're talking about individual deals. 19 21 Friends There's no such thing as a Not even government bonds, because you don't know if the government is going to default. 23 Q. There you go. 24 A. I mean, I guess you could say that U.S. 25 I'm bonds would be considered like the safe bet, even Page 398 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 568 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 569 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump though they pay you no interest, essentially. 2 But you know, bad things can happen even 3 there. 4 to everything. 5 6 7 So there's no such thing as -- there's risk Q. Right. So an airtight strategy is basically a unicorn? A. Yeah. I mean, you can do better and you 8 can sort of guard against, you know, bad things 9 happening a little bit. But basically -- and I think 10 most people know this, there's no such thing as 11 foolproof. 12 Q. Mr. Trump, do you have a certain number of 13 steps that you use to complete deals, a set number of 14 steps, or is it different depending -- 15 16 17 A. I think it's different. I mean, you could have concepts, I guess, but it's different for deals. Q. Have you ever engaged in a real estate 18 transaction in which the contract is between the 19 seller and you as the buyer, but it's listed as you 20 and/or your assigns? 21 A. I think a lot of contracts are done that 22 way, because you may sell it before you even close, 23 you know. 24 25 Q. A lot of people do that. Have you ever entered into one of those deals where at the time you entered into the Page 399 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 569 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 570 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 agreement, you had no intention of actually buying 2 the property, but rather you wanted to just cloud the 3 title by recording the agreement, and while the title 4 is clouded, go out and see if you could find somebody 5 who was willing to pay more? 6 A. I think so, yeah. 7 Q. You've done that? 8 A. I mean, I would have to think about which, 9 10 but it's something that is fairly common in the industry. 11 Q. And you believe you've done that -- 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. -- clouded the title? 14 A. I think so. I've done deals where you 15 close before you sell. 16 cloud a title, and, you know, take your time to buy 17 it. 18 Q. I've done deals where you can I'm talking about a deal where you go into 19 it with that intention. 20 buying the property, but you -- 21 A. You have no intention of I wouldn't say no intention, but you do 22 have maybe not a full intention, and you do cloud up 23 the title. 24 living off of that. 25 A lot of people do that, and make a I think I did one, it's called -- I think Page 400 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 570 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 571 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 it was 100 Wall Street, or 99 Wall Street, whatever. 2 I could get you the exact. 3 didn't think I was going to close the deal, and 4 ultimately the deal was sold before I closed, and it 5 worked out very well. 6 But where I probably And sometimes you do a tremendous tax 7 savings when you do that. 8 taxes because the building is never transferred. 9 10 You don't pay transfer Yeah, I mean, sometimes it's done. Q. But again, and I don't mean to get too down 11 to details on it, but in terms of walking into the 12 deal, shaking hands with someone with the present 13 intention of definitely not buying that property -- 14 A. I don't know if I've done that. 15 Q. In fact, no means of buying the property? 16 A. I don't know if I've done it, but I can 17 tell you it's done, and people make money with it. 18 I don't know that I've done that. 19 think I've done it per se. 20 deals to close. 21 them "not to close." 23 close. 24 25 I think that -- I go into Plenty of people go into deals. 22 Q. I don't They call They go into deals not to Do you consider that to be ethical? To go into a deal without telling the seller, Hey, Page 401 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 571 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 572 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 basically in the back of your head you know I can't 2 buy this property, and I'm not going to buy this 3 property, but if I tie it up, maybe I can find 4 somebody else who is going to buy it and make some 5 money? 6 MR. PETROCELLI: 7 THE WITNESS: The question is vague. Well, I think it's ethical in 8 that it's fairly common in real estate. 9 a lot of money doing that. 10 People make And if the other side has a good lawyer, 11 like you, you won't allow that to happen, because 12 you'll ask for a very large deposit, and to a point 13 where you don't mind it happening. 14 In other words, if somebody puts up a 15 25 percent deposit and wants to cloud up title, 16 you'll say, Hey, I'll suffer with my lawyer for a 17 year, and I'll keep the money, and then I'll sell it 18 a year from now. 19 the property back. 20 back. 21 Because ultimately, they will get They always get the property So you can delay things, and you can -- you 22 know, you can deal a certain way. 23 living doing that. 24 representation, it's very hard to do it. 25 People make a big But if you have good legal And what happens is when you ask for the Page 402 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 572 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 573 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 bigger deposit, usually the buyer says I'm not going 2 to do the deal. 3 BY MR. FORGE: 4 Q. So you don't have a clouded title. Flipping the script a little bit. With you 5 as the seller, you have always been pretty shrewd in 6 your deals, or try to be. Is that fair to say? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And so you have, through your legal 9 counsel, just through your own due diligence, made 10 sure that you're protected against that sort of 11 thing; is that fair to say? 12 A. When I think a deal isn't going to close, 13 or it's suspect, or if I'm not in love with the 14 people that I'm dealing with, I will usually ask for 15 a much larger deposit. 16 don't care, because it would be a nonrefundable 17 deposit where I keep the money. 18 doesn't happen, I keep the money. 19 So if it doesn't close, I So that if it I mean, I've had deals that didn't close 20 where I kept money. And sometimes you have to go 21 through to get your property back because, you know, 22 it's a legal process basically, like we're going 23 through, but it doesn't take as long. 24 Q. Few things do. 25 A. No, few things do. It's -- We'll set a record. Page 403 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 573 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 574 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 Q. We might. 2 A. But it's something that is pretty common in 3 the real estate industry. 4 MR. FORGE: I think we're at 513. 5 (Exhibit 513 was marked for 6 identification.) 7 BY MR. FORGE: 8 Q. 9 Mr. Trump, does Exhibit 513 appear to be a true and correct copy of an advertisement for Trump 10 University for presentations that were going to be 11 occurring in Northern California in August of 2009? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Again, similar to the invitations, this was 14 15 part of the promotion of Trump University? A. Yes. And if they had followed that advice, 16 they would have done very well. 17 until the present -- because I owned real estate from 18 that period in California, and it has gone through 19 the roof. 20 21 Because from 2009 Too bad they didn't listen to me. I hope you're listening to me, Mr. Attorney. 22 That was very good advice. That's what I mean. This was incredible 23 advice. 24 estate has gone very, very high up. 25 Because from that date until now, the real That's what I meant, Jason, when I said -Page 404 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 574 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 575 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 Q. Timing? 2 A. Timing. 3 Q. That was the time to get in? 4 A. It could have been that they put that ad in 5 because I was saying tell the classes to, you know, 6 it's a good time to buy, in my opinion. 7 opinion. 8 I know a lot, but what do I know? 9 was a good time to buy. 10 Q. You know, what do I know? It's only my I mean, I think But I thought it Now, the instructors -- I'll represent to 11 you, Mr. Trump, that you don't know who the 12 instructors were for this particular -- 13 14 A. I don't know. I may know the names, but I don't know them. 15 Q. And I'll represent to you that based on the 16 documents that have been produced in the case, 17 Keith Sperry is one of the instructors. 18 someone you mentioned earlier. 19 is? 20 A. 21 That's You don't know who he Don't know the name. (A discussion was held off the record.) 22 (Exhibit 514 was marked for 23 identification.) 24 BY MR. FORGE: 25 Q. Mr. Trump, I've placed in front of you a Page 405 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 575 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 576 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 document marked as Exhibit 514. And could you just 2 confirm that that appears to be a copy of another one 3 of the special invitations from you promoting Trump 4 University? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And this one is a special invitation again 7 for classes in Northern California, this time in 8 November of 2009; is that right? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Now, Mr. Trump, were you aware that the 11 instructors for these previews were paid entirely 12 based on commission? 13 A. I think there was maybe commission 14 involved, but I wasn't involved in that. 15 to the people running the school. 16 Q. That was up You know just generally speaking, though, 17 that commissions are used as an incentive to get 18 people to sell something; is that fair? 19 20 21 A. Yes. Most things I would say. Almost everything. Q. Now, I'm sure you're not aware, but correct 22 me if I'm wrong, but were you aware that Mr. Cohen 23 eventually wound up with a mentor by the name of 24 Kerry Lucas? 25 A. No, I don't know anything about that. Page 406 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 576 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 577 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Q. You don't know how much the mentorship 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. And you don't know what was provided during 2 5 cost? that three-day one-on-one mentorship? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Or Mr. Lucas? 8 A. Or Mr. Lucas, no. 9 And I don't know Mr. Cohen. MR. FORGE: I'm going to play for you 10 now -- we're going to mark this as -- this is going 11 to be 515. 12 about 13 and a half minutes of Mr. Lucas' deposition 13 testimony. 14 we do it, you tell me. 15 A. Mr. Trump, I'll warn you in advance, it's So if you want to make some calls before Let's do it after. 16 MR. PETROCELLI: 17 MR. FORGE: 18 THE WITNESS: We'll take off after. What's the file number? The file number is 213. He's a mentor, not a 19 professor, is what you're saying? 20 person? 21 22 23 24 25 MR. FORGE: both. He's not a class I think he was brought in for But with Mr. Cohen, he was a mentor. MR. PETROCELLI: This is Kerry Lucas' deposition? MR. FORGE: This is Kerry Lucas' Page 407 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 577 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 578 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump deposition. 2 MR. PETROCELLI: 3 MR. FORGE: 4 Taken on what date? Taken on June 11th of last year. 5 MR. PETROCELLI: 6 MR. FORGE: 7 THE WITNESS: In this case? Yes, sir. When was it? Of last year? 8 (Exhibit 515 was marked for 9 identification.) 10 BY MR. FORGE: 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. But when was he the mentor? 13 Q. The mentorship was back in the 2009 time 14 This was taken last year; last June. frame. 15 A. So is this only Mr. Cohen's case? 16 Q. We're talking about Mr. Cohen's case, yes, A. I mean, had they bought real estate in 17 18 sir. 19 2009, like I told them to do, they would have made a 20 fortune. 21 Q. They would have to be able to afford it, 22 though. It was hard to buy real estate with other 23 people's money in 2009, wasn't it? 24 A. You could get real estate. 25 Q. With other people's money? Page 408 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 578 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 579 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump A. No. With the sellers that take back 2 mortgages a lot of times. 3 you could get mortgages. And banks, too. I mean, 4 Q. You could get mortgages? 5 A. People could get mortgages. 6 Q. It was tough to get financing back in '09, 7 8 9 wasn't it? A. The prices were -- you know the prices from '09 until now have gone through the roof. If people 10 were able to, either through seller financing, which 11 was, you know, where the seller takes back a mortgage 12 on the property, which was done all the time, or 13 banks. 14 bank financing. If you had a good property, you could get 15 But if they did, the value of the 16 property -- I mean, I can tell property value by year 17 bought, year sold. 18 (A cellular phone rang.) 19 (A discussion was held off the record.) 20 BY MR. FORGE: 21 Q. Mr. Trump, you didn't have any -- for the 22 average Joe to get financing back when the markets 23 crashed, did you have any special techniques for them 24 to do that, for the average person? 25 Trumps of the world? Not the Donald Page 409 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 579 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 580 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 A. 2 institutions. 3 money that were lending. 4 property, you could get financing. 5 The special technique was to find There were many institutions that had And if you had the right And 2009 was really, it was starting to be 6 on the way up. 7 had he followed the advice that we were saying, he 8 would have made a lot of money. 9 You know, when he was in the program, I mean, you could get financing in 2009. 10 And you could certainly get seller financing, because 11 a lot of sellers became bankers essentially. 12 wanted to sell their property, and they would take 13 back a mortgage for ten years or five years or two 14 years. 15 16 17 Q. They So there were many ways of getting financing. And I didn't mean to suggest that it was impossible to get financing. A. What I'm saying is 2009 wasn't prime time 18 for not getting financing. I mean, there were times 19 when it was tougher. 20 was a great time to buy. 21 the market just before it started going up. But 2009 was -- I mean, that That was like the bottom of 22 Q. What I'm getting at is -- 23 A. He should have bought property then. 24 Q. Maybe he did. 25 A. He didn't study the course well enough. He Page 410 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 580 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 581 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 2 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump would have made a lot of money, Dan. Q. What I'm getting at, though, is you didn't 3 have any unique techniques for getting financing for 4 the average person. 5 there was financing out there to be had? 6 A. But it's just a matter that You go to institutions, and sometimes 7 you'll go to many institutions, and you'll find one 8 that -- and I would tell that to people. 9 you would go to five or ten institutions, and one 10 Sometimes wants to do it. 11 And a lot of that had to do with the 12 location of the property, of the quality of the 13 property, the price you're paying for the property. 14 And a lot of times you would get seller financing. 15 You wouldn't even have to go to the banks, because 16 sellers were moving, leaving, in bad health. 17 a lot of things. 18 I mean, The only time they couldn't give you 19 financing is if they had no money. 20 times they're selling the property because of their 21 health, because of their age. 22 they just want to sort of go into other things. 23 But a lot of You know, things where And this way they get interest on their 24 money. And seller financing is a thing that I always 25 have -- I've done seller deals where sellers would Page 411 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 581 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 582 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump give financing for things that I've bought. 2 I feel strongly about seller financing. 3 And you don't have to pay points. 4 pay big legal fees. 5 institutions wanted points. 6 rarely does the seller ask for points. 7 thing. 8 9 10 11 Okay. But you know, a lot of the Go ahead. MR. PETROCELLI: 13 MR. PETROCELLI: 14 MR. FORGE: 17 18 19 I'll watch this. Just to be clear, we're Exactly. These are edited clips? Exactly. But they're complete questions and answers. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Because I noticed the time code is jumping around. MR. FORGE: Yeah, it jumps around. But none of the questions or answers are -- 20 MR. PETROCELLI: 21 MR. FORGE: 22 MR. PETROCELLI: 23 So good not listening to a continuous examination? MR. FORGE: 16 With seller financing, (Playing video.) 12 15 You don't have to You'll give me the file? Yes. The CD, and then I can go back and review the transcript? 24 MR. FORGE: Yes. 25 MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you. Page 412 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 582 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 583 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 (Playing video.) 2 MR. PETROCELLI: 3 THE WITNESS: 4 Do you want to go through this first? 5 6 Take our break now? MR. FORGE: Let me ask just a few questions. 7 THE WITNESS: 8 this. 9 BY MR. FORGE: 10 Q. I would rather go through And I think you were chomping at the bit to 11 say this, but Mr. Trump, you did not select this man 12 to be a Trump University instructor or mentor, did 13 you? 14 A. No, I didn't. 15 Q. And you did not consider him to be a top 16 certified mentor, did you? 17 A. No. 18 Q. You did not certify him in any way, did 20 A. No, I didn't. 21 Q. Now, you could have actually insisted upon 19 22 23 24 25 you? meeting and interviewing each of the mentors, right? A. I could have. Other than I'm doing, running a massive company that everybody knows that. Q. But so you could have, but you didn't? Page 413 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 583 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 584 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 A. I did not, no. 2 Q. And so you didn't know that a man with this 3 kind of background was being held out as a top Trump 4 certified mentor, did you? 5 A. No. But in watching, it sounded to me like 6 he would have embellished his record and he slipped 7 through the cracks. 8 just by the way he had answered a couple of the 9 questions reminded me of Saturday Night Live. 10 Frankly, I think he probably, But I think he probably embellished his 11 record to the people that did the hiring. 12 nevertheless, they all got the materials, and they 13 got very good advice as far as real estate is 14 concerned. 15 And And I have to say this, and I was just 16 thinking it as I was going by, some of the biggest 17 real estate developers in the country, and I can tell 18 you in New York and elsewhere, don't have licenses. 19 They build. 20 And they never went to school, and they never went 21 for licensing and they didn't do all of the things, 22 many of the things that you're asking. 23 They're developers. And they build. That's not to say anything positive or 24 negative. But I will say that many, many real estate 25 people don't have licenses. They're not salesmen, Page 414 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 584 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 585 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 they're not brokers, and they just don't have 2 licenses. They just build. 3 Q. But he also lacked experience? 4 A. He doesn't have great experience, no. 5 Q. He doesn't have any experience buying or 6 7 8 9 selling? A. He has a little with his house or whatever it was, but not a lot. Q. And this is not someone you would have 10 found to be fairly described as a top Trump certified 11 mentor? 12 A. No, I would not have hired him. 13 Q. Now, were you aware that Trump University 14 charged Mr. Cohen and others tens of thousands of 15 dollars for three days of one-on-one walking around 16 looking at properties with this man? 17 A. Well, you know, frankly, the fact that he's 18 not -- if he took the advice of this particular sheet 19 right here, Mr. Cohen would have made a fortune. 20 would have bought real estate. He 21 Q. Putting that aside -- 22 A. They're walking around looking at property, 23 24 25 and somebody has to walk around. A real estate broker oftentimes will use children. I mean, they will use people that are Page 415 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 585 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 586 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 18 years old to send people around to look at 2 properties. That's standard. 3 Q. What I'm saying is -- 4 A. It's very standard, Jason, in the business. 5 I mean, they don't do it themselves. 6 drivers take them around. 7 around. 8 the brokers don't go with them. 9 in the industry. 10 They have They have people take them They look at properties all day long, and Q. It's very standard And maybe I should have clarified this. 11 couldn't play all of it, even though it was 12 lengthy -- I 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. -- but you will see, if you care to look, 15 that he did not find any properties or suggest any 16 properties for Mr. Cohen, as he indicated in his 17 deposition testimony. 18 and the Realtors were showing these properties. 19 it wasn't as if -- he wasn't the arm of the Realtor. That was up to the Realtor, So 20 A. But he said go through the realtors, right? 21 Q. The students would find the realtors and go 22 through them? 23 A. And if the students found the realtors, and 24 if the realtors sold them a property, I don't know if 25 Mr. Cohen bought a property. Did he buy a property? Page 416 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 586 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 587 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump If he did, he made a lot of money -- 2 Q. But what I'm getting at, Mr. Trump, is -- 3 A. -- between 2009 and now. 4 Q. -- do you think it's fair to charge someone 5 tens of thousands of dollars for a mentorship with 6 Kerry Lucas, given his complete lack of experience? 7 8 MR. PETROCELLI: foundation. 9 The question lacks Improper opinion testimony. You can answer. 10 THE WITNESS: Well, in addition to him, you 11 have got tremendous amounts of materials and books 12 and other things. 13 that time -- because I was a big buyer. 14 I felt we should go back into the market and buy. 15 That had he -- the big picture, not the small 16 picture. 17 don't know. 18 misrepresented his experience in real estate to get 19 the job. 20 I'm sure you know. 21 testify. 22 instructors and people. 23 that I would have picked personally. 24 25 And based on what my views were at That's when This guy maybe came through the cracks. I It sounded to me like he might have Because we had some excellent people, as And you'll see them when we But we have some excellent, excellent But this one is not somebody I will say, though, added to him is you have got very good books and very good materials from Page 417 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 587 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 588 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 the school. 2 material, and, you know, it depends on what he did 3 with it. 4 They have beautiful and very good If he was a buyer at the time, he made a 5 lot of money, Mr. Cohen. 6 BY MR. FORGE: 7 Q. 8 But he made a lot of money at the time if he was a buyer because the timing was right, correct? 9 A. Because I said buy. 10 Q. Right. 11 A. I said buy at the right time. 12 Q. And you said buy in the ads? 13 A. I said buy in the ads. 14 Q. Right. 15 And you said buy at the right time? And so in terms of beyond that, as far as Kerry Lucas -- 16 A. That's the big picture though, Jason. 17 Q. Yes, that is the big picture. 18 A. That's bigger than -- well, he knew a 19 little bit more or a little bit less about real 20 estate. 21 time. 22 And I put it in ads, and I'm glad we put it in ads. 23 But the big picture is buy now. The big picture was buy now. That's the That was my instinct, and that's what I said. 24 the minutia, okay? 25 And, you know, my idea was to buy. It's not And he went around with realtors. Page 418 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 588 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 589 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump If Mr. Cohen, who I don't know, if he would 2 have bought, he would have made a lot of money. 3 he didn't buy, therefore, he didn't listen. 4 Q. But Mr. Trump, did anybody who paid tens of 5 thousands of dollars to be mentored by Kerry Lucas, 6 that's tens of thousands of dollars less money they 7 have to buy property, right? 8 9 A. I know, but in addition to this gentleman, who again may have -- you know, he may have 10 embellished. 11 have embellished his credentials and gotten the 12 job. 13 You used the word "embellish." He may But in addition to him, and he may be just 14 a good salesman, frankly. 15 salesman. 16 and are terrible teachers. 17 And he may be a positive I know people that have great credentials But in addition to that, they get 18 tremendous materials. 19 read the materials, with not strong instruction, the 20 materials are very strong. 21 22 Q. I mean, the materials, if you And the materials that you're talking about are the free CDs -- 23 A. The books. 24 Q. -- that will be given away, right? 25 A. There was a lot of things that were given. Page 419 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 589 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 590 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 It's so many years right now that I can't remember 2 exactly what. 3 of material that was given to the various students. 4 Q. But I remember it was a large amount So for example, if you look back at 5 Exhibit 513, at the bottom it references that 6 attendees receive a free Secrets of Real Estate 7 Marketing. 8 9 10 11 A. That's the CD. But I'm not talking about -- I'm talking about if they took the course, they got a lot of material. Q. Are you personally aware of any actual 12 materials that the students received if they took the 13 course? 14 A. I'm aware of materials. Do you know how 15 many years it is now? It's so many years, but I 16 don't know exactly what the material was. 17 remember they got a lot of material when they took 18 the course. 19 Q. But you don't personally know -- 20 A. No, but I saw a lot of material. 21 years ago. 22 that they got, and it was very impressive. 23 Q. But I This is But many years ago I saw the material So were you -- and those materials, were 24 you familiar with the fact that in, say, the 25 PowerPoint presentations, the instructors were Page 420 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 590 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 591 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 2 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump falsely representing you had handpicked them? A. 3 No, I wasn't -MR. PETROCELLI: 4 question again? 5 BY MR. FORGE: 6 Q. Sure. Excuse me, what was the In those materials, did they include 7 the PowerPoint presentations in which the instructors 8 falsely represented that you had handpicked them? 9 10 MR. PETROCELLI: evidence. 11 You can answer. 12 THE WITNESS: 13 picked them. 14 BY MR. FORGE: 15 Q. 16 Assumes facts not in Well, my representatives I mean, my representatives. So you were aware that the instructors were falsely telling students you handpicked them? 17 A. No, that I didn't know. 18 Q. And were you familiar enough with the 19 materials to know the instructors were falsely 20 representing that you had personally called them and 21 asked them to join Trump University? 22 23 24 MR. PETROCELLI: Again, the question assumes facts not in evidence. THE WITNESS: Asked the instructor to join? 25 Page 421 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 591 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 592 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 BY MR. FORGE: 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. No, I never did that. 4 Q. But you were aware -- 5 A. There may have been a couple of times, but 6 I certainly didn't do it with him. As you know, I 7 had professors or instructors up in my office on 8 occasions. 9 Q. Those were the e-learning, the internet -- 10 A. Right, whatever. 11 office. 12 Q. 13 14 But they were up in my Again, I'm talking live events, one-on-one. Guys like Kerry Lucas? A. I don't differentiate that much. I mean, I 15 just tell you I had people coming up to my office 16 that were instructors. 17 18 Q. But you understand, Mr. Trump, this case is strictly about the live instruction? 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. The one on one. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. So it's not about those instructors, those 23 24 25 professors. So were you familiar enough with the materials to know that the instructors were falsely Page 422 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 592 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 593 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 representing that they were so close to you, you had 2 dinner with them and shared your views in real estate 3 with them? 4 5 MR. PETROCELLI: It's overbroad, and assumes facts. 6 You can answer. 7 THE WITNESS: 8 BY MR. FORGE: 9 Q. No, I didn't know that. Were you familiar enough with the materials 10 to know that the instructors were falsely 11 representing that if they would enroll in Trump 12 University, you, Donald Trump, would be their friend, 13 would befriend the students? 14 MR. PETROCELLI: 15 THE WITNESS: Same objections. I didn't. I can't imagine a 16 student believing that either, frankly. 17 BY MR. FORGE: 18 Q. Were you familiar enough with the 19 materials to know that the instructors were falsely 20 representing that you were so involved with 21 overseeing the instructors, they had to personally 22 ask you for permission to give out their cell phone 23 number to the students? 24 MR. PETROCELLI: 25 THE WITNESS: Same objections. No. Page 423 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 593 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 594 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 BY MR. FORGE: 2 Q. 3 4 And you didn't authorize any of those types of representations, did you? A. No, I didn't. 5 MR. FORGE: 6 THE WITNESS: 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 8 tape number one. 9 9:10 a.m. Did you want to take a break? Yeah. This concludes digital We're off the video record at 10 (A recess was taken from 9:10 a.m. 11 to 9:25 a.m.) 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the video 13 record. The time is 9:25 a.m. This begins digital 14 tape number two. 15 BY MR. FORGE: 16 Q. Welcome back, Mr. Trump. 17 A. Thank you. 18 Q. Mr. Trump, you might have picked up at one 19 point Kerry Lucas mentioned Dee Caldwell is the woman 20 he contacted, his contact at Trump University. 21 22 23 24 25 You didn't know Dee Caldwell, did you? A. No. I've heard the name, but I don't know who it is. Q. You didn't personally select her to work at Trump University, did you? Page 424 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 594 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 595 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 A. No. 2 Q. Now, as you mentioned, Mr. Lucas could have 3 slipped through the cracks in getting into Trump 4 University as an instructor or mentor; is that right? 5 A. I don't know how. I mean, I don't know 6 how. I think he could have embellished. 7 they thought he did a good job. 8 9 You said he worked for another company for quite a while. 10 Maybe he did a great job there. I don't know exactly why they hired him or 11 how they hired him. 12 another company named Dyna-something. 13 Q. Dynatech? 14 A. Dynatech. 15 at Dynatech. 16 people. 17 did. 18 Or maybe But I know that he worked for And perhaps he was outstanding So you would really have to ask the I mean, maybe he was really good at what he I just don't know. Q. And you don't know whether other people 19 slipped through the cracks to get in as live event 20 instructors or mentors, do you? Personally? 21 A. In every business, people slip through the 22 cracks. 23 come in and they're not good, and you wonder, you 24 know, how did they get there, et cetera. 25 you can take the best business where they just come No matter how well run a business, people No matter, Page 425 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 595 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 596 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 back and, you know, they embellish or they for some 2 reason something happens. 3 4 5 But there's no business in America where people don't slip through the cracks. Q. So you don't know, for example, if 6 Steve Goff is one of the guys who slipped through the 7 cracks? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. You don't know if Chris -- 10 A. It happens. 11 Q. And you don't know if Chris Goff is one of 12 It does happen. the guys that -- 13 A. I don't know him. 14 Q. James Harris, you don't know if he slipped 15 through the cracks? 16 A. Don't know him. 17 Q. So you don't know if he slipped through the 18 cracks? 19 A. Don't know. 20 Q. So you don't know one way or the other? 21 A. No. I know we had very good people, too. 22 We have a lot of good people. 23 know, when you're running a business, it happens that 24 you don't always get tens. 25 Q. But some people, you Gerald Martin, you don't know if he slipped Page 426 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 596 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 597 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump through the cracks? 2 A. Don't know him. 3 Q. And if I didn't say, Keith Sperry, you 4 don't know if he slipped through the cracks? 5 A. Don't know him. 6 Q. Mr. Trump, you could have sat down and 7 personally interviewed each of these folks, correct? 8 9 A. I think from a time standpoint, I think it would have been very difficult. Because of my 10 schedule and because of the fact that I am doing many 11 deals all over the world, I think it would have been 12 very tough. 13 I mean, this was a very important thing for 14 me. It wasn't a big monetary thing, the Trump, the 15 school. 16 But it was very important to me. And actually, more important to -- you 17 know, you can impart certain wisdom that you learn 18 the hard way. 19 love the idea of the educational aspect of it. 20 And you can impart that to people. But to be honest, I wouldn't have had the 21 time to interview everybody because my business is 22 too big. 23 I I don't do it on any business. I hire 24 people, and hopefully they're the right people at the 25 top, and they'll hopefully do a good job. Page 427 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 597 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 598 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 Q. 2 this as true. 3 confirm it, but there were fewer than -- there were a 4 half a dozen or so people who did the majority of the 5 live events for Trump University. 6 And I'm just going to ask you to accept You can check your own records to And accepting that as true, I'm not asking 7 you to endorse it, but you certainly had time to do a 8 final interview of six people, right? 9 A. Well, look, I have people at the top who I 10 know. And, you know, as an example, Mr. Sexton, who 11 I have confidence in. And I would have assumed they 12 would have done that. And frankly, I got so many 13 good reviews, and I would see the reviews a lot. 14 know, they would send me, when people leave the 15 course, they would send -- I call them report cards. 16 I don't know what the official name is, but they 17 would give us so many good marks. 18 I actually thought that people were very 19 happy at the school. 20 why I didn't settle this case, which I could have 21 settled very easily a long time ago. 22 23 24 25 You Q. That's And we'll get to the reviews and the settlement. A. I was very surprised. All -- I'm just saying it seemed like things were going very good. Page 428 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 598 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 599 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Q. Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump But you certainly had time to do a, conduct 2 a final interview for the six most prolific live 3 events? 4 A. 5 It didn't seem necessary, because I always thought the school was doing well. 6 You know, when I have a job that's not 7 going well, people tell you. Like if you have 8 unhappy tenants, or if you have unhappy -- an office 9 building where the tenants aren't happy, or an 10 apartment house where tenants -- you always find out. 11 They write you letters. 12 I just -- I've heard so -- I heard so many 13 good things about the school that I honestly thought 14 that it was really being well, you know, well run. 15 16 17 18 19 Even since then, I still have people calling saying they love the school. Q. But I'm talking about before they're actually being put out -A. There's a reason I didn't do that. I could 20 have found the time, but the reason I didn't do that 21 is I heard the school was running very well. 22 Q. But I'm talking about before being put out 23 as instructors. Before you say my handpicked 24 instructor is going to be there, you could have sat 25 down and personally interviewed the person, right? Page 429 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 599 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 600 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 A. Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump I guess I could have. I just thought that 2 the school was doing so well, you know, from all of 3 the reviews it's gotten. 4 telling me. 5 And, you know, just people I don't know that I've ever heard one 6 person, you know, back then say anything bad about 7 it. 8 Q. 9 models. But you realize that the school shifted It shifted models from an Internet learning 10 model to a live events model. 11 that? Do you understand 12 A. Right, sure. 13 Q. And do you understand that there's a 14 complete disparity between the instructors for the 15 Internet model versus the new wave of instructors for 16 the live events? 17 MR. PETROCELLI: 18 THE WITNESS: The question is vague. Well, to me it's one school, 19 though. 20 heard great things about the Internet. 21 it's one school, Jason. 22 I understand what you're saying. And I And to me You know, I mean, it was just overall, it 23 was a positive experience, I felt. And I didn't feel 24 they needed a lot of more guidance, other than I 25 would tell them, you know, like this ad, talking Page 430 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 600 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 601 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 about buy real estate now. 2 know, tell them to buy. 3 Tell them to buy. 4 I would say that. You This is a great time to buy. But I didn't feel that they needed much 5 help because it was a positive experience. People 6 were saying positive things about it. 7 BY MR. FORGE: 8 Q. You talked about -- 9 A. I have things where people will, you know, 10 I'll get little clues where a building isn't running 11 great, and all of a sudden I'll see somebody 12 someplace, oh, Mr. Trump, you ought to look at this 13 building. 14 15 I never heard that with this until all this litigation started. 16 Q. You have golf courses, right? 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. And you have hotels? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. Now, you would agree with me, whether it's 21 your property or somebody else's property, one of the 22 ways of expressing dissatisfaction is customers will 23 request a refund? 24 25 A. Well, no. letters from people. One of the ways is you get And they say, you know, I'm not Page 431 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 601 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 602 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 happy with something. 2 see you. Another way is that they'll They'll say -- 3 Q. That's certainly -- 4 A. People will see you. They say, Mr. Trump, 5 I live in your building here, and it's not good. 6 superintendent is not good, and it's not clean. 7 I'll go and check and I'll make sure. 8 9 10 11 The And With this, I had so many positive reports, especially when the people leave the course, they were writing these beautiful reports. Q. But you understand though, generally 12 speaking, one way of expressing dissatisfaction, say 13 with the stay at a hotel, is to request a refund? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. And by the way, we did give refunds. 17 Q. Well, do you know what the percentage was 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 And -- of the refunds -A. No, I didn't. I know we gave a lot of refunds, yeah. Q. But did you know -- hold on, Mr. Trump. Did you know it was over 25 percent? A. I didn't know what the percentage, but I know we gave them. By the way, most people wouldn't give them. Page 432 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 602 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 603 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 There was no reason to give them. 2 you sue for the rest of our lives. 3 Q. We could have let But when you say you're not familiar with 4 any sort of expressions of dissatisfaction, you 5 weren't aware that over 25 percent of the people who 6 paid for live -- 7 A. I heard -- 8 Q. -- received refunds? 9 A. I heard people received refunds. 10 think that's instinctual. 11 get a refund, they're going to ask. But I If people think they can 12 And I probably foolishly gave it to them. 13 I shouldn't have given it to them because, frankly, 14 they could have been tied up all in this litigation 15 and, you know, whatever happens happens. 16 I viewed that as a lot of times that 17 happens. 18 whatever it's called. 19 The people use the product, wear the product, and 20 then they send it back. 21 22 23 You go to the Home Shopping Network, The refunds are unbelievable. The refunds are massive. That's their biggest problem is the refunds. So you know, when people were asking for 24 their money back, frankly -- and I would have these 25 good reports, but people would ask for their money Page 433 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 603 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 604 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 back. Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump We gave them their money back. 2 I shouldn't have given their money back. I 3 gave back millions of dollars because I'm an honest 4 guy. 5 you would have it in your litigation. 6 7 I should have said I'm not giving it back, and Q. We're here in one of your hotels right now, right? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Would you be satisfied with the performance 10 11 12 of this hotel if it had a refund rate of 25 percent? A. But it's different, though. It's different. 13 Q. Would you be satisfied? 14 A. With Home Shopping Network, if you look, 15 their refunds are tremendous. 16 They buy a dress, and you're allowed to give it back. 17 I don't know what they call it. 18 They just send it back. 19 I don't know if they use the dress, if they don't use 20 the dress. 21 They're tremendous. They send it back. They give their money back. Probably they do, but it's different. And with this one, they take the course, 22 and they'll ask for a refund. But why do so many 23 people, why have so many people, including your 24 client on this case, signed these letters that were 25 so beautiful about the course? Page 434 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 604 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 605 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump I mean, I think, I'm not sure, but I 2 haven't read it in a long time, but I think your 3 client on this case, and certainly your client on the 4 other cases, signed these incredible letters about 5 how good the course was. 6 Q. And, Mr. Trump, you're an interesting guy. 7 I could talk to you all day long. 8 you specific questions I need to get answers for. 9 But I have to ask So what I'm asking you now is would you be 10 satisfied if the refund rate at your hotel was 11 25 percent? 12 13 MR. PETROCELLI: The question is vague, and lacks foundation. 14 THE WITNESS: It doesn't happen. It 15 doesn't happen. It's a different business. It 16 doesn't happen. With hotels it doesn't happen. 17 BY MR. FORGE: 18 Q. So you would find that to be unacceptable? 19 A. No. People wouldn't come back to the 20 hotel. They wouldn't ask for a refund because they 21 wouldn't get it. 22 hotel. 23 would go way up. 24 unoccupied -- 25 Q. You wouldn't give a refund on a But they won't come back. And your number Your vacancy number. Your Would you consider it acceptable if the Page 435 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 605 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 606 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 rate of requesting refunds was 25 percent of 2 people who were staying in the hotel? 3 4 5 6 7 8 A. Wouldn't happen. They don't come back. In the hotel business, they don't come back. Q. But would you be satisfied if that happened? A. The Home Shopping Network they give refunds. 9 No, because -- yeah, I would be unhappy if 10 they didn't come back, and my vacancy factor would go 11 up, up, up, up, and then all of a sudden the hotel 12 would do very badly. 13 Q. 14 satisfy them? 15 A. 16 17 And you would have to change something to Yeah, well, it's a different thing. It's a different business. Q. But the bottom line is if you found out one 18 of your hotels had a rate of refunds being requested 19 at 25 percent, you would not consider that to be 20 acceptable? 21 A. I told you, they don't do that with the 22 hotel business. 23 don't come back. 24 25 Q. They don't ask for refunds. They But what I'm asking you, though, is if that happened -Page 436 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 606 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 607 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 A. Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump You can't go after it. It's not in that 2 business. 3 Network has tremendous percentages of refunds, and 4 yet it's a very successful enterprise. 5 Q. It's a different business. Home Shopping How about Wharton, do you think that the 6 folks -- where you attended, do you think the folks 7 at Wharton would be happy, would be satisfied if the 8 students requested refunds at a 25 percent rate? 9 10 A. a thing. 11 Well, again, it's a much different kind of It's a school where you go and you go. I mean, we had a lot of -- a lot of people 12 started complaining after they heard about the 13 lawsuit because they figured they can get their money 14 back. 15 16 17 That's a natural business instinct. Q. So Wharton and the hotel is over here, and the Home Shopping Network -A. I think it's more Home Shopping Network. 18 It's a short-term situation. You're not staying at 19 the school and living there and everything else. 20 (Exhibit 516 was marked for 21 identification.) 22 BY MR. FORGE: 23 Q. Mr. Trump, I'm handing you an exhibit 24 that's been marked as Exhibit 516. It's an index of 25 materials from Trump University's live events. And Page 437 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 607 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 608 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 it also includes the first page of each of the 2 documents in there. 3 4 Looking at that index, you didn't review the materials that are indexed there, did you? 5 A. It's so long ago, Jason. 6 know. 7 I may have seen it. 8 9 I just don't I mean, you're talking about many years ago. Q. I just don't recognize it. Let me -- Gary Eldred was one of the Stanford, was a guy who used to be a professor at 10 Stanford. He was one of the professors during the 11 Internet learning phase with Trump University, right? 12 A. Okay. Yes. 13 Q. Let me -- I'm putting that in front of you 14 because these are materials he reviewed prior to his 15 deposition. 16 And now we're going to play -- this is 17 clip 16, for the record. 18 questioned actually by your attorney about what he 19 felt after reviewing these materials. 20 21 And play his -- when he's (Playing video.) MR. PETROCELLI: 22 go off for a second? 23 MR. FORGE: 24 MR. PETROCELLI: 25 MR. FORGE: Excuse me, Jason, can we Yeah. Hold on a second. Yes. Hold on. Certainly. Page 438 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 608 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 609 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. PETROCELLI: First of all, this is an 2 index, Exhibit 516, that your firm prepared? 3 this a -- 4 5 6 7 MR. FORGE: Or is That's the actual exhibit that was used in his deposition. MR. PETROCELLI: But was this exhibit compiled by your office? 8 MR. FORGE: Yes. 9 MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. So this is a 10 collection of documents that you then indexed and 11 showed the witness? 12 MR. FORGE: 13 MR. PETROCELLI: 14 15 16 17 18 this witness? Exactly. Is this witness -- who is Just so we have an understanding. MR. FORGE: His name is Gary Eldred. Professor Gary Eldred. MR. PETROCELLI: And he's a fact witness, or an expert, or what? 19 MR. FORGE: He's a witness who was deposed. 20 MR. PETROCELLI: 21 MR. FORGE: 22 MR. PETROCELLI: 23 MR. FORGE: Okay. By you? Yes. Okay. And this is -- actually the 24 question right now that I'm going to play is by 25 Mr. Trump's lawyer. Page 439 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 609 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 610 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 MR. PETROCELLI: 2 THE WITNESS: 3 BY MR. FORGE: 4 Q. Nancy Stagg. Okay. Who is my lawyer? So this is questioning from a 5 June 25th, 2015 deposition. 6 number 16. And again, this is file 7 (Exhibit 516-A was marked for 8 identification.) 9 (Playing video.) 10 BY MR. FORGE: 11 Q. Mr. Trump, you don't have any basis and 12 personal knowledge to dispute Professor Eldred's 13 assessment of these materials, do you? 14 15 MR. PETROCELLI: The question is vague and overbroad. 16 You can answer. 17 THE WITNESS: How much money did he make in 18 real estate? I don't know. 19 make in real estate? 20 BY MR. FORGE: 21 Q. I don't know, sir. 22 A. You will have to ask him. 23 MR. PETROCELLI: 24 MR. FORGE: 25 MR. PETROCELLI: How much money did he What was the file number? 16. 16? Page 440 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 610 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 611 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 MR. FORGE: 2 MR. PETROCELLI: 3 THE WITNESS: 4 BY MR. FORGE: 5 Q. 6 Yes, 16. Thank you. No, I don't know him. What I'm saying is you didn't review the same materials he did? 7 A. No. 8 Q. And so you don't have any basis or personal 9 knowledge to dispute his assessment? 10 A. No. 11 (Exhibit 517 was marked for 12 identification.) 13 BY MR. FORGE: 14 Q. Mr. Trump, I'll represent to you that 15 Exhibit 517 is a general ledger printout that your 16 folks produced to us in the course of this 17 litigation. 18 And if you could, just take a minute to 19 look it over. 20 it? I don't know if you're familiar with 21 A. I'm not. 22 Q. Okay. Now, if you look on here, you can 23 see that in 2004, 2005 and 2006, you were providing 24 funding for Trump University. 25 with your memory? Is that consistent Page 441 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 611 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 612 of 669 1 2 3 4 A. No. I really don't know. would have to ask my accountants. Q. But you don't have any reason to disagree with the ledger that they provided? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. Just so you know. 9 I mean, you You would have to ask my accountants. And this is from your accountants. This is not something that we created. 10 A. That's fine. 11 Q. And so if you look to, by April of 2010, at 12 that point, you had put in Do you see 14 that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And then by, if you look at the 17 distributions, which is the second part, you had 18 received back, by April of 2010, you had received 19 back 7.2 million dollars. 20 A. Do you see that? Yes. 21 MR. PETROCELLI: What page? 22 MR. FORGE: 23 Do you guys have that page number? 24 MR. PETROCELLI: 25 MR. FORGE: This is page number DT0026971. No. Mine starts at 72. It might be at the very end, Exhibit 2 page 612 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 613 of 669 1 Dan. It might be the last page. Because basically, 2 there's a ledger of, a funding ledger, and then a 3 distribution ledger. 4 MR. PETROCELLI: Mine goes to 75. 5 MR. FORGE: Okay. 75? 6 BY MR. FORGE: 7 Q. Mr. Trump, do you have that page? A. No. 8 9 not? 10 11 I have the same as he does. MR. FORGE: I think I have a different -- let me mark this as A. Let's make this 517-A. 12 (Exhibit 517-A was marked for 13 identification.) 14 BY MR. FORGE: 15 Q. 16 Probably Because the one you have as 517 is money you put in. The 517-A is money you get back. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. And so the money you got back by April of 19 2010 was dollars. Do you see that? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. So that averages out to be receiving a 22 profit of a little over a year, right? 23 A. Yeah, I guess. 24 Q. Is that -- I know you have a lot of 25 endeavors, but a year, in your mind, is not Exhibit 2 page 613 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 614 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 enough to justify your full-time attention to Trump 2 University? 3 A. No, it's not that. I mean, I, you know, 4 was very proud of the school. 5 was doing very well and I wanted it to do well. 6 not a question of how much money I make. 7 I thought the school It's I have things that make much more money 8 than that, and I don't devote any time to them. 9 Leases that you sign that you don't even know you 10 have them, and they're much bigger than this. 11 12 13 14 But no, that has nothing to do with it. Q. So the money is not a reason why you didn't personally interview each of the -A. It's not a large transaction. But it's not 15 a reason that I wouldn't have -- you know, I cared 16 about it. 17 Q. And you've mentioned a few times today that 18 Michael Sexton was the one you trusted to put in 19 charge of Trump University? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You trusted him to make the hiring 22 decisions, right? 23 A. I hope so. 24 Q. And you trusted him to oversee the 25 curriculum, right? Page 444 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 614 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 615 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. But you did not trust him to have signature 3 authority on the bank accounts for Trump University, 4 did you? 5 A. My accountants would tell you that. 6 Generally, I wouldn't do that. 7 wouldn't do that. 8 9 10 11 Q. You know, I generally You wouldn't give him that sort of type of authority? A. No. businesses. 12 I wouldn't generally do that with I like to keep that separate. MR. FORGE: 518. 13 (Exhibit 518 was marked for 14 identification.) 15 BY MR. FORGE: 16 Q. Mr. Trump, you gave an interview to 17 Steve Brill that was published in Time Magazine; is 18 that right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, one of the things you said in here is 21 that the -- at least he quoted you as saying, is the 22 plaintiff's lawyers in this case are known scam 23 artists. 24 25 Do you remember saying that? A. Right. Page 445 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 615 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 616 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 2 Q. Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump And you know I'm one of the plaintiff's lawyers? 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. Did you say that? 5 A. Yes. I'm relating it to Mel Weiss and the 6 other gentleman, because somehow the firm was -- it 7 was an offshoot. 8 involved. 9 And some of the people were I knew Mel Weiss. I considered him to be a 10 scam artist. 11 Q. So is that who you were referring to? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. You weren't referring to me, Jason Forge? 14 A. I don't know you. 15 Q. So you don't -- and you weren't referring 16 to Ms. Jensen? 17 A. No, I don't know Ms. Jensen either. 18 Q. So you weren't referring to any of the 19 20 lawyers that are actually on this case? A. No. But there was an offshoot of 21 Mel Weiss, and the other gentleman went to jail also, 22 I guess, whatever his name was, LaRoe. 23 Q. Lerach? 24 A. Lerach. 25 Q. You're aware that neither of them ever had Page 446 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 616 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 617 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 2 3 4 5 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump any involvement with this case, right? A. I don't know about the case. I know the firm was somehow an offshoot. Q. And you're aware that neither one of them had any involvement with the firm -- 6 A. That I don't know. 7 Q. -- when this case was brought? 8 A. I heard they were -- not any more involved. 9 10 11 But I hear that people were involved years ago. Q. Did you ever hear that either one of them was involved with this case in any way? 12 A. Not this case, no. 13 Q. Did you ever hear -- 14 A. I don't know. I mean, I know nothing 15 about -- I haven't spoken to them in a long time. 16 But I knew Mel Weiss was a bad guy, and I thought he 17 was a crook; I thought he was a total crook. 18 19 20 Q. You say in here the people representing the plaintiffs. A. Well, I'm talking about the -- when I say 21 the people, I'm talking about and referring to 22 Mel Weiss. 23 made it clear, the people that were -- the firm was 24 represented a long time ago and owned, I guess, by 25 Mel Weiss and the other gentleman. And I think I made it clear, I thought I And I think it's Page 447 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 617 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 618 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump an offshoot of that firm. 2 I think the firm paid money to -- from what 3 I hear, he paid, you know, fairly recently campaign 4 contributions to Attorney General Schneiderman in 5 New York. 6 campaign contributions to Schneiderman in New York. 7 And I don't think that's appropriate that That's what I hear, that your firm paid 8 you have done that, but that's okay. 9 what you do. 10 I mean, that's But I think that any firm that's, you know, 11 touching Mel Weiss in any way, or touching the other 12 gentleman that you named, I think is probably 13 suspect. 14 Q. And again, these people that you mentioned, 15 you don't have any awareness they had anything to do 16 with the firm when this case was brought, do you? 17 A. I was told that they did. 18 Q. You were told that they were affiliated 19 20 21 with the firm when this case was brought? A. In some form, affiliated or were at some point involved with the firm, yes. 22 Q. At some prior point? 23 A. Yes, at some prior point. 24 Q. That's what I'm getting at. 25 Do you have any basis to believe they were involved with the firm Page 448 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 618 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 619 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump at the time this case was brought? 2 A. I would say they were involved with the 3 firm, because I think they essentially started either 4 the firm or an offshoot of the firm. 5 Q. Okay. So that's it, that they were 6 involved in -- one of them or both of them might have 7 been involved in a different iteration of the firm? 8 9 10 A. firm. Well, a different iteration, but with the And I guess some of the people knew them very well, and you know... 11 12 13 I knew Mel Weiss. Q. You might have known Mel Weiss, but do you have any reason to believe I did? 14 A. 15 later, right? 16 Q. 17 Mel Weiss was a thief. I don't know. Actually, you came in much Didn't you come in much later? Yes. So what I'm getting at here is obviously you have a big voice, right? 18 A. I guess, yeah. 19 Q. I mean, you're going to be quoted a lot 20 more than Jason Forge is going to be quoted? 21 A. Maybe. 22 Q. And things you say are going to get more 23 publicity than things I say, generally speaking? 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. And you chose to say that the lawyers on Page 449 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 619 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 620 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 A. Well, I'm talking about Mel Weiss and the other gentleman, yeah. 4 5 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump the plaintiff's side are known scam artists? 2 3 Confidential Q. That's who I'm talking about. So you're not talking about the actual lawyers on the case? 6 A. No. I'm talking about Mel Weiss. 7 don't know how he's involved anymore. 8 know. 9 And I I wouldn't I'm happy not to know where he is. Q. Now, at page 8 of this article, if you turn 10 to it, it attributes you to a statement that you were 11 not familiar with the -- 12 MR. PETROCELLI: 13 MR. FORGE: 14 bottom. 15 BY MR. FORGE: 16 Q. What paragraph, Jason? Third paragraph from the You were not familiar with the numbers 17 related to the surveys or the refund rates, but you 18 promised to have one of your lawyers get back to 19 Mr. Brill. 20 21 MR. PETROCELLI: right? 22 MR. FORGE: 23 BY MR. FORGE: 24 Q. 25 These are not quotes, Correct. Is that an accurate description of what you told Mr. Brill? Page 450 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 620 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 621 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 A. I don't remember, really. 2 conversation. 3 Q. It was a quick Have you, since this interview, 4 familiarized yourself with the numbers of -- the 5 survey numbers and the refund rate numbers? 6 A. No. 7 Q. So I take it you have -- as you sit here 8 today, you have no explanation for the discrepancy 9 between the number of surveys versus the number of 10 11 customers who actually paid for the live events? A. No. That's up to my people. 12 don't. 13 school. 14 school was very good. 15 16 17 18 Q. I really I just have a lot of good reports on the We have many, many reports saying that the That's what I know. And you don't have reports, though, talking about the number of refunds? A. No. I mean, I'm sure my accountants have, but I don't have them. 19 Q. Now, you mentioned -- 20 A. I think we were very nice to give the 21 22 refunds, actually. Q. You mentioned in here, page 9, and you 23 mentioned this earlier today, you say in here that -- 24 at least Mr. Brill attributes to you a statement that 25 plaintiff's lawyers have been dying to settle. Page 451 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 621 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 622 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 2 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump And you said earlier, you could have settled this case very early on. 3 Did you express that sentiment -- 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. -- to Mr. Brill, the plaintiff's lawyer? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And what is that basis -- 8 A. I said that's based on what Mr. Garten told 9 me. 10 MR. PETROCELLI: Well, we can't get into 11 what -- 12 BY MR. FORGE: 13 Q. 14 Alan Garten? 15 A. With a lawyer, yes. 16 Q. And you don't know the basis of -- 17 A. No. 18 Q. Mr. Trump, are you aware that one of the It's based on conversations with It's what I was told. 19 benefits that students were promised at Trump 20 University was networking opportunities? 21 MR. PETROCELLI: 22 THE WITNESS: Assumes facts. I would say that that would 23 be a natural benefit, yeah. 24 BY MR. FORGE: 25 Q. Are you aware that one of the promises that Page 452 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 622 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 623 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 was made to students that the Trump University 2 mentors would be their mentors for life? 3 A. I wasn't aware of that. 4 the mentor. 5 friendly with them. 6 7 8 9 12 Some of the mentors may have become I mean, you never know. But, no, I wasn't aware of it. Q. Are you aware that the surveys were not anonymous? A. 10 11 What does that mean? MR. PETROCELLI: Q. The surveys that Trump University took, they were not anonymous? 14 put their names on them? 16 17 Assumes facts. BY THE WITNESS: 13 15 But it depends on A. Oh, yeah. They had students actually Well, that's much better, I think. Q. So in other words, if the students said 18 something critical about an instructor or about 19 someone who is supposed to be their mentor for life, 20 that person would see the critical comment? 21 aware of that? 22 A. Oh, I think the other way, they don't mean 23 anything, actually. 24 student puts their name on it. 25 You're I think it's much better when a You mean they don't want to hurt anybody's Page 453 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 623 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 624 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump feelings, is what you're saying? 2 Q. Well, Trump University, one of the selling 3 points was networking, and another one was having a 4 mentor for life. 5 6 And so if the mentor for life was someone you had just got done criticizing -- 7 A. Only a lawyer could think of that. 8 Q. So you don't think that anticipating -- 9 A. I think the surveys are much more important 10 with a signature. 11 meaningful. 12 Q. I think it's -- it's more You don't think the anticipation of 13 possibly needing help from these folks in the future 14 would influence the students to -- 15 16 A. You mean that's why they said such great things about the school? 17 Q. Yeah. 18 A. I don't think so. 19 meant it was very good. 20 could get their money back. 21 Oh, wow, you got money back? 22 back. 23 24 25 Q. I think they really Until they found out they And then they said, Let's get our money Do you think Bill Clinton was a great president? A. He had moments. He had some moments. But Page 454 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 624 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 625 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 overall, he was hurt very badly by Monica Lewinsky 2 and all of the scandal. 3 presidency very much. I think it hurt his 4 Q. But do you think he was a great president? 5 A. Well, I think it's inappropriate for here, 6 because we're not talking about politics now. 7 talking about something else. 8 9 10 11 We're So I don't think that's a question that pertains to this. But I would say that he was hurt by the scandal. Q. 12 But do you think he was a great president? MR. PETROCELLI: Just for the record, I 13 would object to this line of questioning as 14 completely irrelevant, and the kind of examination 15 that should be subject to a protective order. 16 I would let it continue. The Magistrate 17 has indicated to me that only instructions based on 18 privilege can be made, a ruling with which I 19 disagree, but will abide by at the moment. 20 21 So you can continue your examination, but it's subject to my continuing objection. 22 MR. FORGE: 23 BY MR. FORGE: 24 Q. 25 Thank you. Do you believe Bill Clinton was a great president? Page 455 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 625 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 626 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 A. Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump I think he was hurt very badly by the 2 scandals, his escapades. 3 badly. 4 way or the other, but I think he was hurt very badly 5 by the scandals. 6 7 Q. I think it hurt him very I think that, you know, I have no feeling one So aside from the scandals, do you think he was a great president? 8 A. 9 legacy. I can't say aside. It's part of his I mean, the scandals were devastating. 10 was impeached. 11 before Congress. 12 was -- very few people -- very few presidents that 13 were impeached. 14 15 He was impeached. He He was brought I mean, he was impeached. So that hurt him very much. The scandals were a big part of his legacy, unfortunately, for him. 16 (Exhibit 519 was marked for 17 identification.) 18 19 And that THE VIDEOGRAPHER: record. We are off the video The time is 9:58 a.m. 20 (A recess was taken from 9:58 a.m. 21 to 10:13 a.m.) 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the video 23 record, and the time is 10:13 a.m. 24 BY MR. FORGE: 25 Q. Welcome back, Mr. Trump. Page 456 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 626 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 627 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 A. Thank you. 2 Q. Mr. Trump, you have Exhibit 519 in front of 3 you. Does it appear to be a true and correct copy of 4 a Trump blog -- 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. -- that you posted on December 2nd, 2008? 7 A. Seems to be. 8 9 10 It's a long time ago. Shall I read it? Shall I read the whole thing? Q. I'm going to direct your attention to the 11 fourth paragraph, but you're welcome to read whatever 12 you want. 13 The fourth paragraph you wrote of Hillary 14 Clinton: 15 person and so is her husband." 16 17 And then you wrote, "Bill Clinton was a great president." 18 19 "Hillary is smart, tough and a very nice Did you believe that sentiment when you wrote it in this blog? 20 A. When was this done? 21 Q. December 2nd, 2008. 22 A. It was a long time ago. I mean, at the 23 time -- I mean, I was fine with it at the time. I 24 think in retrospect, looking back, it was not a great 25 presidency because of his scandals. That was 2008. Page 457 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 627 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 628 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump I say that's a long time ago. 2 Q. So you posted it, but you believed it then, 3 but you don't believe it now? 4 it then and you still don't believe it? 5 A. Or you didn't believe I might have said it. I don't think it was 6 a very important statement made then. 7 politics. 8 I wasn't in It didn't matter to me. If I was to think about it with all that he 9 went through, I would probably not call him a great 10 president anymore because of all of the scandal and 11 the turmoil that he had. 12 period of time, and then he was impeached. It was a very tumultuous 13 I mean, I would probably say that it's not 14 something I gave very much thought to then because I 15 wasn't in politics. 16 question now, too much turmoil. 17 Q. But if you were asking me the But all that turmoil and the impeachment 18 and the scandal, that all predated your posting of 19 this blog, though? 20 think about it that much? 21 A. But you're saying you just didn't It's something I wouldn't have thought 22 about. 23 the last couple of years when I was deciding to do 24 this. 25 Q. I've been thinking about a lot of things over How about Hillary Clinton, do you think she Page 458 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 628 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 629 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 would make a great vice president? 2 MR. PETROCELLI: 3 that in here, Jason? 4 MR. FORGE: 5 aside. MR. PETROCELLI: And you're required to answer at this juncture. 10 BY MR. FORGE: 11 Q. 12 Again, I have my continuing objection to this line of questioning. 8 9 I'm just -- you can put that It doesn't matter. 6 7 Is there a reference to Do you believe that Hillary Clinton would make a great vice president, Mr. Trump? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did you believe she would make a great vice 15 president back in 2008? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. Not in here, no. 18 19 22 23 I'm just asking you, did you believe that back in 2008? A. No, I didn't think I said that. 20 21 Did I say that here? No, I don't think she would be a good vice president. Q. Do you believe she would make a great president? 24 A. Did I say that in here? 25 Q. No, not in here. Page 459 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 629 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 630 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 2 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump MR. PETROCELLI: "In here," we're talking about Exhibit 519? 3 MR. FORGE: Correct. 4 THE WITNESS: Do I think she would make a 5 great president? 6 BY MR. FORGE: 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. No. 9 Q. Back in the year 2008, did you think she 10 would be a great president? 11 12 No, I don't. A. I don't think I said anything. it here. 13 Let's see, if we go back many, many years 14 ago, do I think she would have? 15 don't think she's got the gravitas. 16 MR. PETROCELLI: transcript confidential again. 18 to, I guess -- 19 THE WITNESS: I We're going to have I don't want those answers to -- 21 22 Probably not. Jason, I'm marking this 17 20 I don't say MR. PETROCELLI: I guess we're going to have to work out a designation process. 23 MR. FORGE: We actually have a designation 24 process, and I don't think that fits within it, 25 but -Page 460 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 630 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 631 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 MR. PETROCELLI: 2 MR. FORGE: 3 MR. PETROCELLI: 4 MR. FORGE: But you know what, I'll -- We can discuss that later. Correct. For the time being, you are 5 designating this as confidential, and we will treat 6 it accordingly. 7 MR. PETROCELLI: Whatever the court order 8 requires, we will comply with it in terms of the 9 designation process. 10 MR. FORGE: 11 Let's mark this as Exhibit 520, please. 12 (Exhibit 520 was marked for 13 identification.) 14 MR. PETROCELLI: I did note that maybe one 15 or two of the exhibits were marked "confidential for 16 counsel only" also. 17 MR. FORGE: Most of them have been 18 de-designated, although the financial ones probably 19 were not. 20 21 That was the only one that -MR. PETROCELLI: were -- 22 MR. FORGE: 23 BY MR. FORGE: 24 Q. 25 Those were the ones that Yeah. Mr. Trump, does Exhibit 520 appear to be a true and accurate copy of a Trump blog that you Page 461 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 631 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 632 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump posted on March 13th, 2008? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Now, if you look at the end of the second 4 paragraph, you wrote, "I know Hillary, and I think 5 she would make a great president or vice president." 6 You do know Hillary Clinton, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And you knew her back in 2008? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. So did you believe this sentiment when you 11 12 expressed it in March of 2008? A. 13 14 Pretty much. Well, I didn't think too much about it. Where are you asking me to read? Q. If you look at the end of the second 15 paragraph, there's a parenthetical at the end of it. 16 And it says, "I know Hillary, and I think she would 17 make a great president or vice president." 18 A. Yeah, at the time I might have. I didn't 19 give it a lot of thought, because I was in business. 20 And as a businessman, I think it was something I 21 never really gave much thought to. 22 Now that I see what she's done and how 23 she's handled herself and how she's handled her 24 e-mails and all of the problems that she's got, I 25 would say she wouldn't make a very good vice Page 462 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 632 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 633 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump president or president. 2 Q. So but back then you thought she would? 3 A. Well, back then -- how long ago was that? 4 How many years ago? 5 Q. That's March of '08. 6 A. That was a long time ago. 7 Q. Almost eight years ago. 8 A. It's something I didn't give much thought Q. But you did express it in this blog 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 to. posting? A. about. Q. It's just something I wouldn't have thought I mean, I expressed it. But where is it? The last sentence of the first paragraph -- or second paragraph. A. After -- when I looked at the history of 17 the Clintons, I think that they've really let the 18 country down. 19 Q. 20 21 So you think they've let the country down since March of 2008? A. Well, since I've really started to watch 22 and study politics as opposed to just thinking about 23 business and not thinking about politics. 24 25 Q. Now, you've said of Jeb Bush previously that he is exactly the kind of political leader this Page 463 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 633 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 634 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 country needs now, and we very much need in the 2 future. He's bright, tough and principled. 3 4 Was that an honest sentiment when you expressed that about Jeb Bush? 5 A. No, I didn't know him very well when I said 6 that. I mean, I hardly knew him at all. 7 him well, and I think he would be a disaster as 8 president, frankly. 9 Q. 10 before? 11 you -- 12 A. Now I know So did you not believe it when you said it Or you just simply didn't have a basis and I didn't have much of a basis. But I said 13 it to be nice, and it didn't matter, but I said it to 14 be nice and to be respectful. 15 know him. 16 17 18 19 Now that I've gotten to know him, I think he would be not very good at all. Q. 22 Of George Pataki, you said he was the most underrated guy in American politics. 20 21 But I didn't really Is that a sentiment that you said to be nice, but not because you necessarily believed that? A. He had a period of time when he was doing a 23 good job, but I think he ended badly. And then when 24 I got to know him -- because I didn't know him very 25 well -- when I got to know him, I'm not a fan. Page 464 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 634 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 635 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Q. Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump So when you said he was the most underrated 2 guy in American politics, did you believe it 3 sincerely or was that -- 4 A. No, I think I would have believed it at the 5 time. 6 him. 7 know him and I got to see him when I became political 8 and involved politically, as opposed to not knowing 9 people in business, I would say that no, he's not -- 10 11 12 But I'm not a fan, you know, as I got to know I didn't know him very well. But as I got to I don't think he would be very good. Q. So you didn't have a basis for what you said, but once you educated yourself more -- 13 A. 14 better. 15 lot better. 16 politics, and I've gotten to know the history of 17 politics a lot better. 18 have -- I do not think he was very good. 19 20 Q. But now I've gotten to know people a lot I've gotten to know the political system a I've gotten to know the ins and outs of And I think he would not Rick Perry, you've said that he was a very effective governor? 21 A. Where is that? 22 Q. Where did you say that about Rick Perry? 23 A. Where is it again? 24 Q. Yeah. 25 A. Well, I thought he was a nice guy. Can you find it? Hold on a second. I Page 465 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 635 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 636 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 thought Rick Perry was a very nice guy. 2 know, obviously he didn't do too well when he ran for 3 president. 4 pressure. 5 6 7 Q. And you get to know people better under Under pressure they're not so good. So you formed a different opinion of him later? A. 8 9 But, you Yeah, as I got to know him. MR. PETROCELLI: Also for the record, Jason, the reference to Jeb Bush, who -- there was 10 apparently a document, but not shown to the witness, 11 I don't know where you were reading from. 12 want the record to be clear there was nothing in 13 front of him on that. 14 15 MR. FORGE: But just I I just need to find the exhibit number. 16 THE WITNESS: 17 matter. 18 BY MR. FORGE: 19 Q. It's okay. It doesn't Who cares? Mr. Trump, I have the transcript and the 20 video of this appearance on this. 21 the transcript. 22 and hear it -- Let's start with And if you want to actually see it 23 A. Of what? 24 Q. Of your appearance on This Week. 25 A. When? Page 466 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 636 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 637 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 Q. With John Carl, from I guess December 5th. 2 A. Of last year? 3 Q. Yeah. 4 A. Okay, I can see the transcript. 5 Q. Hold on one second. Sorry, I apologize. 6 These pages are not Bates numbered. 7 the right point. 8 whatever you want. 9 Okay. I want to get to But you're welcome to look through This was previously marked as 10 Exhibit 489 to your deposition. 11 to look at any other portion, Mr. Trump, that is 12 absolutely your right and entitlement. 13 Again, if you want (Exhibit 489 was identified.) 14 BY MR. FORGE: 15 Q. I have opened this up to the fifth page, 16 and it's near the bottom of the page, where it 17 begins, you said of Jeb Bush, and there's a quote. 18 A. When is this? 19 Q. This is a month and a half ago. 20 21 How long ago is this? And if you go to the next page for your response. 22 A. This is him asking me the question? 23 Q. Yeah, him asking you the question about 24 25 your past praise for -A. It's already been out there. Page 467 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 637 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 638 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 MR. PETROCELLI: 2 MR. FORGE: 3 MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. After he talks about the America We Deserve, the book? 6 MR. FORGE: 7 BY MR. FORGE: 8 Q. 9 The fifth page, now to the sixth. 4 5 What page are you on? Yeah. Your response, Mr. Trump, was it's -- your response to the questions about your praise for these 10 folks that you no longer have praise for is, "It's a 11 very simple answer to that. 12 my life. 13 deal with politicians and I would contribute to them 14 and I would deal with them and certainly I'm not 15 going to say bad things about people because I needed 16 their support to get projects done. 17 support for lots of things, or I may have needed 18 their support, put it another way. 19 not going to say horrible things and then go in a 20 year later and say, Listen, can I have your support 21 for this project or this development or this 22 business? 23 I contributed to people because I was a smart 24 businessman. 25 that based on relationships." I was a businessman all I've made a tremendous fortune. I had to I needed their I mean, you're So I say nice about almost everybody, and I built a tremendous company, and I did Page 468 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 638 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 639 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 Was your response there that I just read 2 honest? Was it true? 3 A. 4 differently. 5 people -- you don't think about it. 6 you're in politics, you think about the qualities of 7 a person, and the -- you really think much deeper 8 about a politician. 9 That's true. And you view people When you're in business you view Whereas when I could -- like a Jeb Bush as a governor of 10 Florida and say, you know, because I don't think 11 about it. 12 Q. So one of the reasons why you said these 13 nice things about people like Jeb Bush and Hillary 14 Clinton was because you didn't think about it that 15 much, and because you might need their help for 16 something in the future? 17 A. You want to always be friendly with 18 politicians. 19 businessman, you always -- you want to be as nice as 20 you can to politicians whenever possible. If you're a businessman, I'm a 21 Q. Because you might need their assistance? 22 A. Well, you don't want to have them go 23 against you. 24 Jeb Bush one way or the other, frankly. 25 was in business, I had no problems with Jeb Bush. You want to have -- I don't think about But when I Page 469 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 639 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 640 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump So if somebody would ask me, I would 2 think -- now, when you're in politics, and you get to 3 know them better, because you get to know these 4 people better, and you see what you're dealing with, 5 you can answer a question I think a lot more 6 accurately. 7 Q. So you didn't want these people against 9 A. No, you don't want them against you. 10 Q. And you would rather have them on your 12 A. You would rather have them on your side, 13 politicians. 14 to have the politicians on your side. 8 11 you? side? When you're in business, you would like 15 Q. And so you say nice things about them? 16 A. You don't want to say bad about them, 17 ideally you don't want to say badly. 18 And you don't think about it as deeply 19 either. 20 people, they're nice, they're very good, they could 21 be very good. 22 I mean, when you asked me about different When you start thinking about people in a 23 much deeper fashion, when it's updated and you've 24 seen what they've done, you've seen where they've 25 been, you can answer it I think much different Page 470 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 640 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 641 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 politically than you would as a businessman. 2 businessman, you're not thinking that much about it. 3 You want them to like you, and that's pretty 4 important for business. 5 Q. As a Mr. Trump, when we spoke last month, you 6 mentioned that within your Trump organization, you 7 generally delegate to other people the task of 8 selecting and hiring people; is that true? 9 A. Yeah. Largely. 10 Q. And you said that you didn't personally 11 select most of the people that work within Trump 12 organization; is that true? 13 A. Generally speaking, yes. 14 Q. Can you think of anyone that you did 15 personally select to work for you? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. He's your general counsel? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. What's his -- 20 A. He's an attorney. 21 Mr. Garten, lawyer. Lawrence Glick. Allen Weisselberg. 22 Q. He's your CFO? 23 A. Right. 24 25 Jason Greenblatt, an attorney. Matthew Calamary, a security person; security people. And others. Page 471 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 641 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 642 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 Q. These people you mentioned -- 2 A. I could give you a list if you want. 3 could go through a whole list. 4 I would say that I hired directly. I These are people that 5 Q. And are they part of your inner circle? 6 A. Yeah, I think so. 7 Q. And these people are, in your mind, special 8 people? 9 A. Well, they're good people. I mean, you 10 asked me did I hire -- I have a lot of good people 11 that I didn't hire directly. 12 don't hire directly, and they're very good. 13 Q. Most of the people I Is there anyone that you personally hired 14 that isn't close, you know, isn't part of your inner 15 circle? 16 A. I would have to look at a list. 17 thousands of people that work for me. 18 would have to look at a list. 19 20 Q. special person to be personally selected by you? A. I make mistakes, too. 22 Q. Can you think of any? 23 A. Sure. 25 I mean, I Is it fair to say that it takes a pretty 21 24 I have I've hired people over the years where it didn't work out. Q. You personally? Page 472 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 642 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 643 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 A. Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump Yeah. I've hired people where it doesn't 2 work out. 3 how good you are, you'll make mistakes like that. 4 And I've had people that, you know, I hired that 5 didn't work out. 6 7 8 9 Q. I mean, no matter who you are, no matter What would you say is your success versus failure rate when you personally selected? A. Well, I think it's good. But a lot of times a person comes in, and you hired the person, 10 and for some reason it doesn't work out. 11 personality conflicts. 12 don't work. 13 You can't really predict what's going to happen. 14 Q. Even I mean, you have things that They don't get along with other people. So generally speaking, when you personally 15 select somebody to work for you, are you selecting 16 them because there's something particularly good 17 about that person? 18 A. Yeah. I mean, everybody. I pick because I 19 think they're going to be good, but it doesn't always 20 work out that way. 21 Q. It doesn't always work out that way, but at 22 least you think you've identified something 23 particularly good about the person? 24 A. Sure. Otherwise, you wouldn't hire them. 25 Q. And you have high standards? Page 473 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 643 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 644 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 A. I think so. 2 Q. Now, Mr. Trump, if you will look back at 3 Exhibit 516. 4 those materials include both PowerPoints and 5 transcripts. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You could have at any time requested those That's that index of materials. And 8 types of materials for you to review personally, 9 right? 10 A. I think I did review. You're talking about 11 many years ago, but I saw -- a tremendous amount of 12 material was shown to me over the years. 13 is -- how many years ago is this? 14 lot of the material. 15 Q. And this But I've seen a We went over -- but you said you didn't see 16 enough materials to detect all of those 17 representations the instructors were making to the 18 students? 19 20 A. But, you know -- oh, I see, those representations. 21 22 23 24 25 I don't remember that question, actually. No, well, I told you about those representations. Q. No, but I saw the material. But as you sit here, you can't identify any material that you actually saw before? A. It's so many years ago. It's really -Page 474 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 644 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 645 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump it's a lot of years ago. 2 Q. 3 that you saw? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Mr. Trump, are you familiar with the 6 And you don't have any records of anything No. general phrase, "buy low and sell high"? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What does that mean to you? 9 10 Does that have any special meaning to you, or is it just pretty self-explanatory? 11 A. Self-explanatory. 12 Q. You don't have any special way of buying 13 14 low and selling high? A. Well, I think you have to work hard. 15 have to scour. 16 have to do. 17 You You have to do the things that you You have to find the right people. I mean, some people go and they'll see, as 18 an example, a house and they will just buy it. 19 I've always said look at 25 houses. 20 look at the better. 21 you can buy low, and selling high is determined by 22 the market and other things. 23 And The more you can Figure out the market. And then But you can buy a lot lower when you look 24 at a lot of things. That's always been very 25 important for me to tell people. They buy the first Page 475 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 645 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 646 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 thing that they see and then they found out that they 2 made a mistake. 3 4 So see as many -- even if it's 25 or 30 things, see as many as you can. 5 Q. Before you buy? 6 A. Before you buy, yeah. 7 Q. Don't rush in? 8 A. Don't rush. 9 10 I mean, rush if you think you're making a great deal on something, but it would be good if you knew some comparables. 11 Q. So do your homework? 12 A. Do your homework. 13 (Exhibit 521 was marked for 14 identification.) 15 BY MR. FORGE: 16 Q. 17 Mr. Trump, does Exhibit 521 appear to be a true and correct -- 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. -- copy of a collection of ads for Trump 20 University? 21 A. Looks like it. 22 Q. We can go through as many as you want or as 23 few as you want. 24 A. I take your word. 25 Q. Okay. I'm just going to represent to you Page 476 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 646 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 647 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 that these are ads for 2009 seminars, live events. 2 You do not know who the instructors were 3 for these individual events, correct? 4 5 A. individual instructors. 6 7 I may know the names, but I don't know the Q. You didn't personally select these instructors, correct? 8 A. No. 9 Q. That's correct? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. And you don't personally know what they 12 told the students at these events, correct? 13 A. 14 I don't. 15 teaching. 16 17 Q. I think we have concepts and ideas, but no, Every instructor has a different method of And you don't know what they told the students before these events? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Now, you could have called them in and 20 said, Okay, present to me what you're going to 21 present to the students? 22 A. Well, but that's what I had Michael Sexton 23 and the people -- that's what you have management 24 for. 25 Q. So you use other people to do that? Page 477 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 647 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 648 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump 1 A. I do. 2 Q. You did not do that yourself? 3 A. I did not. 4 Q. But you could have? 5 6 MR. PETROCELLI: ambiguous. 7 Lack of foundation. THE WITNESS: 8 I could have. 9 management. 10 The question is vague and Well, I could have; I guess But I think, you know, I have And again, I was getting good marks on what we saw. 11 So, you know, I guess I could have. But 12 the management seemed to me to be doing a very good 13 job. 14 MR. FORGE: 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 16 Let's take a quick break. We are off the video record at 10:38 a.m. 17 (A recess was taken from 10:38 a.m. 18 to 10:50 a.m.) 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 20 record. 21 BY MR. FORGE: 22 Q. We are back on the video The time is 10:50 a.m. Mr. Trump, at any time during the period 23 that Trump University was offering classes, did you 24 ever ask anyone to provide you with information as to 25 what percentage of students were requesting refunds? Page 478 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 648 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 649 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump A. Not as to a percentage. I knew they were 2 requesting refunds, and I told my accounting people 3 if they wanted the refunds, and it was in the period 4 of time for the refunds, to give it to them. 5 And I paid millions. I don't know exactly 6 what the numbers -- you would know. 7 millions and millions of dollars in refunds. 8 frankly, if I would have known that I was going to be 9 in litigation, probably I wouldn't have done it, 10 I mean, although it was the honorable thing to do. 11 12 But I paid Q. And you knew that in realtime you were paying millions of dollars in refunds? 13 A. I was paying a lot in refunds. 14 knew that. 15 do it because people want to get their money back. 16 It's one of those things. 17 18 19 And I also understand why. Yeah, I I mean, you Q. Like you said, it's the honorable thing to A. I did the honorable thing. do? 20 (Exhibit 522 was marked for 21 identification.) 22 BY MR. FORGE: 23 Q. Mr. Trump, I will represent to you that 24 Exhibit 522 is a printout of an e-mail chain that 25 your representatives provided to us in discovery. Page 479 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 649 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 650 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump Confidential 1 Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump And if you look at the bottom of the first 2 page, it's an e-mail from James Harris to 3 April Neumann. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. And there's a response to that e-mail from 6 Michael Sexton. 7 turn it over. 8 Harris' February 11th, 2009 e-mail. 9 in, and then all caps, senior citizen areas, 10 But at the second page -- if you The second page, this is still James It says: We are exclamation point. 11 Did you want to -- with Trump University, 12 did you want to avoid getting senior citizens as 13 prospective students? 14 A. I don't know that I ever discussed it, 15 actually. I mean, I would say no. 16 I wouldn't object to it. 17 discussed it. 18 Q. But I wouldn't -- I don't think I've ever I don't remember discussing it. So at least in your mind, was Trump 19 University something that would not be marketed to 20 senior citizens? 21 22 A. Not in my mind. Not that I remember, certainly. 23 Q. Would it be marketed as something -- 24 A. I know senior citizens go to schools, and 25 they learn and everything is fine. Page 480 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 650 YVer1f Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 651 of 669 Volume II Donald Trump 1 Confidential Art Cohen, et al. vs. Donald J. Trump No, I don't even know what it means. 2 says we're in a senior citizens area. 3 you mean? 4 Q. Yes. It Is that what I guess what I'm getting at is, did 5 you envision Trump University as being designed to 6 avoid enrolling senior citizens? 7 A. No, I didn't. 8 Q. Was it -- did you think it was appropriate 9 10 for senior citizens? A. I knew it would be fine. I mean, you know, 11 it will keep them busy. 12 do, and maybe they will make some money, and, you 13 know, I think it would be fine. 14 15 They will have something to I don't think it's anything I would have even thought about. 16 MR. FORGE: Good luck. 17 THE WITNESS: 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you very much. The time is 10:53 a.m., 19 and this concludes the deposition. 20 video record. 21 - - We are off the - 22 (The videotaped deposition was 23 concluded at 10:53 a.m.) 24 - - - 25 Page 481 www.aptusCR.com Exhibit 2 page 651 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 652 of 669 EXHIBIT 3 Exhibit 3 page 652 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 653 of 669 Deposition of Amy H COHEN vs. TRUMP, et al. 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA 3 ----------------------------------------x 4 ART COHEN, Individually 5 and on Behalf of All 6 Others Similarly 7 Situated, 8 Plaintiff, 9 -against- 10 DONALD J. TRUMP, 11 12 3:13-cv-02519 GPC-WVG Defendant. ----------------------------------------x 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF: AMY H Wednesday, July 1, 2015 New York, New York 10:46 a.m. - 3:09 p.m. 20 21 22 23 24 25 KRAMM COURT REPORTING Reported in stenotype by: ---- Rich Germosen, CCR, CRCR, CRR, RMR ---NCRA & NJ Certified Realtime Reporter NCRA Realtime Systems Administrator Job No. 63825 Exhibit 3 page 653 Page: 1 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 654 of 669 Deposition of Amy 02:31 02:31 02:31 H COHEN vs. TRUMP, et al. 1 and Trump University had falsely advertised that it 2 was teaching Mr. Trump's secret real estate 3 techniques; correct? 4 A. I was not aware, no. 5 Q. If you had been told that Trump 6 University was operating illegally, you wouldn't 7 have signed that declaration; correct? 8 A. I would not have signed it. 9 Q. Had you been made aware of the truth 10 concerning Trump University you would have never 11 signed that declaration; correct? 12 02:31 A. 13 have never been in the program, therefore, would not 14 have had to sign the declaration. 15 16 Q. 18 MR. MARON: Argumentative. 19 20 A. Objection. Misleading. No, I do not. I am embarrassed now of the training that I received. 21 02:32 Do you brag to your colleagues and friends that you're a Trump University grad? 17 02:32 Would never have signed -- I would Q. I tell no one. And that's because you're embarrassed 22 that you were taken in by something that turned out 23 to be a scam? 24 MR. MARON: 25 You can answer. KRAMM COURT REPORTING Objection. Misleading. Page: 119 Exhibit 3 page 654 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 655 of 669 EXHIBIT 4 Exhibit 4 page 655 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 656 of 669 1 2 3 4 5 David K. Schneider (CSB 139288) YUNKER & SCHNEIDER 655 West Broadway, Suite 1400 San Diego, California 92101 Telephone: (619) 233-5500 Facsimile: (619) 233-5535 Email: dks@yslaw.com Attorneys for Defendants TRUMP UNIVERSITY, LLC and DONALD J. TRUMP 6 7 8 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 9 FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA 10 12 TARLA MAKAEFF, BRANDON KELLER, ED OBERKROM, SONNY LOW, J.R. EVERETT and JOHN BROWN, on Behalf of Themselves and All Others Similarly Situated, 13 Plaintiffs, 11 14 v. 15 TRUMP UNIVERSITY, LLC, (aka Trump Entrepreneur Initiative, LLC, a New York Limited Liability Company, DONALD J. TRUMP, and DOES 2 through 50, inclusive, 16 17 18 Defendants. 19 AND ALL RELATED CROSS-ACTIONS. 20 ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) Case No. 10 CV 0940 CAB (WVG) CLASS ACTION DECLARATION OF PAULA LEVAND DATE: February 12, 2013 TIME: 2:30 p.m. CTRM: 2 — 4th Floor 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 DECLARATION OF PAULA LEVAND Exhibit 4 DEx. 11,page Page656 75 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 657 of 669 Exhibit 4 DEx. 11,page Page657 76 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 658 of 669 Exhibit 4 DEx. 11,page Page658 77 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 659 of 669 Exhibit 4 DEx. 11,page Page659 78 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 660 of 669 Exhibit 4 DEx. 11,page Page660 79 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 661 of 669 Exhibit 4 DEx. 11,page Page661 80 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 662 of 669 EXHIBIT 5 Exhibit 5 page 662 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 663 of 669 Page 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA TARLA MAKAEFF, BRANDON KELLER, ED OBERKROM and PATRICIA MURPHY, on behalf of themselves and all others similarly situated, ) ) ) ) ) ) Plaintiffs, ) ) VS. ) ) TRUMP UNIVERSITY, LLC, (AKA ) TRUMP ENTREPRENEUR ) INITIATIVE), a New York ) Limited Liability Company, ) DONALD TRUMP, and DOES 1 ) through 50, inclusive, ) ) Defendants. ) ) _____________________________) Index No. 3:10-CV-00940-CAB DEPOSITION OF PAULA LEVAND Los Angeles, California Monday, June 17, 2013 Reported by: NIKKI ROY CSR No. 3052 Job No.: 10006477 Exhibit 5 page 663 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 664 of 669 Page 95 1 Let the record reflect in the documents 2 produced and identified as Exhibit 1-A there's a 3 document that starts "Dear Paula," dated August 25, 4 2009, that lists five points, five areas. 5 THE WITNESS: 6 her. 7 BY MR. FORGE: 8 Q. 9 10 I was going to give that to She needs it. Okay. And so, Ms. Levand, as best you can recall, is this the time frame when you first paid anything to enroll in a Trump University program? 11 A. It was May that I paid to get in. 12 Q. Okay. 13 mentorship? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And I understand from your declaration that Did that $25,000 include a One-on-one mentorship. 16 there was -- you had -- your first property and your 17 first mentor, there were problems with those; is that 18 fair to say? 19 A. 20 21 I had -- yeah. I have to say it wasn't a straight line success. Q. All right. What -- what was the -- what 22 were the natures of the problems with the first 23 property and first mentor? 24 25 A. Well, can we break it down to -MR. LUSBY: One at a time. Exhibit 5 page 664 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 665 of 669 Page 96 1 BY MR. FORGE: 2 Q. 3 4 That's better. So let's talk about the property. A. I was far away. That was a big problem. 5 was very inexperienced. 6 It was -- I didn't know what I didn't know. I didn't have one class yet. 7 Q. Where was that first property? 8 A. In Florida. 9 MR. LUSBY: 10 BY MR. FORGE: 11 Q. 12 As far away as you can get. So that property was in Florida. And was it -- 13 A. And I was in California. 14 Q. -- was it a property that your mentor had 15 I worked with you in -- 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. -- acquiring? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Approximately how much did you pay for that 20 property? 21 A. 35,000. 22 Q. Who was your mentor at that time? 23 A. Michael Dubin. 24 Q. So other than the distance away and your 25 just general lack of experience at that time -Exhibit 5 page 665 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 666 of 669 Page 97 1 notice I didn't say greenness? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. Your lack of experience at that time. Were 4 there any other problems that stand out? 5 doesn't -- I'm not holding you to those being the 6 only problems with the property. 7 that stands out in your mind as a problem with that 8 first property? 9 A. Yes. And it But anything else There were -- I didn't have an 10 inspection. So there were things that -- sometimes 11 you need an inspection, sometimes you don't. 12 call. 13 no -- and I kicked myself for this, there were no 14 bathrooms. 15 bathroom but there was no washer and dryer. 16 that was a problem. It's a But I didn't know that there were -- there was 17 I mean -- no bathrooms -- there was one And so There were -- it needed -- it was a rehab. 18 It was a fixer-upper. So I needed to get that. 19 There was a recommendation for someone to do the 20 rehab, which I did. 21 communication and being so far. 22 from what was advised. And -- but the big problem was I did the opposite 23 Q. How long did the rehab take? 24 A. I purchased it in June, and I think it was 25 July. And then the rehab was -- there were things -Exhibit 5 page 666 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 667 of 669 Page 98 1 because it was an FHA loan, there were things that 2 needed to be corrected or redone. 3 4 5 Q. Things with the property, you mean, such as what? A. I think the roof was a problem. 6 to think. 7 up to code, water lines. 8 9 10 Q. I'm trying There were some wiring that needed to be My mental ten key is just registering numbers in here. So how long did all that, the rehab and those other -- 11 A. It was sold -- it was sold in December. 12 Q. Okay. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 approximately? A. Well, I can't recall. Those were -- I didn't know you wanted those figures. Q. That's all right. I mean, do you have an estimate? A. I did, but I don't recall what it was. I thought -- 20 MR. LUSBY: 21 produced in 1-A. 22 in there. 23 BY MR. FORGE: 24 Q. 25 How much did the rehab cost, Some of that is in what was She's got some contractor documents So there's some details. She's not -- If you want to look, you can. It's not -- I mean, it's not terribly important that we get down to Exhibit 5 page 667 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 668 of 669 Page 99 1 the -- 2 A. Well, see, there were -- 3 Q. -- exact dollars? 4 A. -- I think that -- I don't know if I have 5 that. There were two properties. 6 MR. LUSBY: What did you sell it for? 7 THE WITNESS: 8 MR. LUSBY: 9 THE WITNESS: Sixty. And did you make a profit? I don't believe there 10 was because I had to have some things redone. 11 added everything. 12 Insurance. MR. LUSBY: Uh-huh. 13 BY MR. FORGE: 14 Q. Washer, dryer? 15 A. Taxes. 16 I The washer and dryer hook up. The roof. 17 Q. So -- 18 A. But, you know, I was -- see, this is the 19 second property. 20 I was told by my second mentor in Trump University 21 that when you go to any area, that the first property 22 is not one you're going to really make much money, if 23 anything, on because you don't know your team. 24 so that was pretty much true for this one. 25 Q. I'm trying -- I'm trying to think. And So can you -Exhibit 5 page 668 Case 3:13-cv-02519-GPC-WVG Document 254-2 Filed 06/22/16 Page 669 of 669 Page 100 1 A. I don't believe I made a profit. 2 Q. Okay. 3 Can you estimate the disparity, the amount of loss there was? 4 A. I don't remember the loss at this point. 5 Q. Okay. 6 7 Do you know if it was less than or greater than $10,000? A. It could have been less than $10,000. It 8 could have been less -- it could have been around 9 three to five. 10 MR. LUSBY: 11 THE WITNESS: 12 MR. LUSBY: 13 Are you sure you had a loss? That's something -- I would certainly remember that. 14 THE WITNESS: 15 MR. LUSBY: 16 THE WITNESS: 17 BY MR. FORGE: 18 Q. 19 I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I kind of remember. How bad? I was so glad it sold. I play poker, and everybody remembers their bad beats. 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. They don't remember all the wins. 22 Okay. So you've told us about the problems 23 with the property. 24 Mr. Dubin, your mentor? 25 A. What were the problems with It was mainly communication. It was Exhibit 5 page 669