ROBERT J. DEL TUFO Attorney General_of New Jersey i i. Attorney for Petitioner 1 a State of New Jersey Department of Law and Public Safety FE .1, Division of Gaming Enforcement 81 51q91 Trenton, New Jersey 08625 MSW CONTRA LEGAL By: Mitchell A. Schwefel Assistant Attorney General (609) 984?6128 STATE OF NEW JERSEY CASINO CONTROL COMMISSION DOCKET PRN NO. STATE OF NEW JERSEY, DEPARTMENT OF LAW AND PUBLIC SAFETY, DIVISION OF GAMING ENFORCEMENT, Civil Action Petitioner, PETITION FOR PLACEMENT ON EXCLUSION LIST . ROBERT LIBUTTI, Respondent. Petitioner, State of New Jersey, Department of Law and Public Safety, Division of Gaming Enforcement, located at the Richard J. Hughes Justice Complex, CN-047, Trenton, New Jersey, says: 1. Petitioner, State of New Jersey, Department of Lawr and Public Safety, Division of Gaming Enforcement ("Division") is responsible, pursuant to 5:12-76, for the enforcement of the provisions of the Casino Control Act N.J.S.A. 5:12-1 gt seg., and the regulations promulgated thereunder and for the prosecution before the Casino Control Commission ("Commission?) of all proceedings for violation of the Act and the regulations promulgated thereunder. 2. Respondent, Robert LiButti a/k/a Robert Libutti is a New Jersey resident, living at 687 Third Street, Secaucus, New Jersey 07094. 3. N. .S.A. 5:12-71, which governs the exclusion of certain persons from licensed casino establishments, provides in relevant part: a. The commission shall, by regulation, provide for the establishment of a list of persons who are to be excluded or ejected from any licensed casino establishment. Such provisions shall define the standards for exclusion, and shall include standards relating- to persons: 0 0 I (3) Whose presence in a licensed casino would, in the opinion of the commission, be inimical to the interest of the State of New Jersey or of licensed gaming therein, or both. The commission . shall promulgate definitions establishing those categories of persons who shall be excluded pursuant to this 4. N. . . . the Commission regulation setting forth the criteria for exclusion, provides in relevant part: The exclusion list may include any person: 2. Who is an associate of a career or professional offender and whose association is 2 such that his presence in a licensed casino establishment would, in the opinion of the Commission, be inimical to the interest of the State of New Jersey or of licensed gaming therein; or 4. Whose presence in a licensed casino establishment would, in the opinion of the Commission, be inimical to the interest of the State of New Jersey or licensed gaming 5. N.J.A.C. defines the pertinent terms as follows: "Career or professional offender" means any person whose behavior is pursued in an occupational manner or context for the purpose of economic gain, utilizing such methods as are deemed criminal violations of the public policy of this state. "Inimical to the interest of the State of New Jersey or of licensed gaming" means adverse to the public confidence and trust in the credibility, integrity and stability of casino gaming operations and in the strict regulatory process created by the Casino Control Act. 6. Casino records demonstrate that Respondent was present and gambled at four Atlantic City casinos between September 1984 and October 1990, that Respondent gambled almost $20 million, that Respondent lost almost $12 million, and that Respondent has already received casino complimentaries worth in excess of $3.5 million. 7. On or about July 25, 1990, two individuals associated with the Gambino organized crime family of New York City 3 had a conversation with an undercover Detective of the New Jersey State Police. 8. During said conversation, . these individuals indicated the following: a. They were friendly with Jimmy Roselli and Robert LiButti; and b. One had. gone to Trump Plaza several times to see or meet Roselli. 9. On or about July 31, 1990, another conversation took place between the undercover State Police Detective and individuals associated with the Gambino crime family. 10. During said conversation, these individuals indicated the following: . a. LiButti was "in (Donald) Trump's pockets," i?e. LiButti had obtained a lucrative contract for Roselli at the Trump Plaza casino; and b. LiButti had run a number of scams with horses. 11. On or about August 10, 1990, LiButti met and had a conversation with Edward M. Tracy, then President and Chief Executive Officer of the Trump Atlantic City Properties (consisting of the Taerahal, Trump Plaza and Trump Castle Casino/Hotels). 12. The purpose of said meeting and conversation was the negotiation of an entertainment contract between the Trump Organization and LiButti's purported client, entertainer Jimmy Roselli. 13. During the course of said meeting and conversation: 4 a. LiButti became angered when Tracy declined LiButti's offer to sell the Trump Organization the exclusive contract rights to Roselli's services in Atlantic City, New Jersey, for an additional fee of $250,000.00, payable solely to LiButti. This $250,000.00 fee was to be in addition to Roselli's standard fee under the entertainment contract; b. After Tracy tentatively rejected LiButti's offer of an 'exclusive contract for Roselli's services, LiButti stated that he could cause "problems" for the Trump Organization; c. On at least four separate occasions, LiButti injected the name of John Gotti into the negotiations; d. The meeting concluded with one last reference to Gotti, when LiButti stated to Tracy that he (LiButti) had to go to "my boss" just like you. 14. John Gotti is believed by law enforcement sources to be, and is currently under indictment as, the head or boss of the Gambino family, and thus is a career or professional offender. 15. On or about September 4, 1990, LiButti again met and had a conversation with Tracy relative to the proposed contract between the Trump Organization and Roselli. 16. During the course of said meeting and conversation, which was recorded by the New Jersey State Police with Tracy's c0nsent but without LiButti's knowledge: a. LiButti indicated that he and others had "sat in front of John Gotti" who offered to assist Roselli in a dispute with Frank Sinatra; b. LiButti stated that Gotti wanted him to find out if Gotti could gamble at the Trump casinos; and c. LiButti claimed that any casino that permitted Gotti to gamble there would make a lot of money from Gotti and would attract organized crime figures from all over the country. 17. During the period between May 1986 and September 1988, when ReSpondent gambled at Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino (?Trump Plaza"), Respondent repeatedly engaged in disorderly, disruptive and abusive behavior in the casino itself, including, but not limited to, the following: a. When losing, Respondent was verbally and physically abusive to other patrons playing at his table, to the point where Trump Plaza began reserving tables exclusively for Respondent's use; b. In fits of rage at various times, Respondent flung dice and gaming chips around the casino, and grabbed the stick from a stickperson's hand and broke it in half; c. On numerous occasions, Respondent indicated to Trump Plaza personnel that he did not want women, blacks or other minorities dealing or supervising his games; d. Respondent referred to a female Trump Plaza floorperson as a "dumb and a "dumb bitch"; e. Respondent referred to women in general as f. Respondent stated that don't want f__king broads on the game," and that don't want gooks and spooks?; g. Respondent referred to a female Trump Plaza pit boss as a ?Jew broad" or ?Jew bitch"; h. Respondent demanded the removal of an Oriental dealer from a game by instructing Trump Plaza supervisory personnel to ?get that slantueyed piece of s__t off the game"; i. Respondent referred to a black dealer as a "black bastard?; j. Respondent, having failed to intimidate a Commission inspector into refraining from watching his game, said to the inspector, who was black: "It's bad enough that I have to look at you people at my house, I have to look at you here too"; and k. In the presence of a black craps dealer, Respondent said to another player: "Shoot the f__king dice. Shoot the f__king dice like you're f__king some n__ger.? 18. Based on the information contained in Paragraphs 6 through 16 of this Petition, Respondent is an associate of John Gotti, a career or professional offender. 19. Based on the information contained in Paragraphs 6 through 17 of this Petition, Respondent is also a person whose presence in a licensed casino establishment would be inimical to the interest of the State of New Jersey or licensed gaming therein. WHEREFORE, Petitioner demands the following relief against Respondent: A. Judgment that Respondent is an associate of a career or professional offender whose association is such that his presence in a licensed casino establishment would, in the opinion of the Commission, be inimical to the interest of the State of New Jersey or of licensed gaming therein within the meaning of N.J.S.A. 5:12-71 and N.J.A.C. B. Judgment that Respondent is a person whose presence in a licensed casino establishment would be inimical to the interest of the State of New Jersey or licensed gaming therein within the meaning of N.J.S.A. 5:12-71 and N.J.A.C. 19:48? C. Judgment entering a final order placing Respondent on the exclusion list pursuant to N.J.A.Q. and D. Judgment for such other and further relief as the Commission may deem just and appropriate under the circumstances. Respectfully submitted, ROBERT J. DEL TUFO Attorney General of New Jersey By: 14222322622?"4? Mitchell Assistant Attorney Genera Dated: February 19, 1991 121790/4 STATE OF NEW JERSEY, DEPARTMENT OF LAW AND PUBLIC SAFETY, DIVISION OF GAMING ENFORCEMENT, Petitioner, v. ROBERT LIBUTTI, Respondent. STATE OF NEW JERSEY CASINO CONTROL COMMISSION DOCKET NO. PRNNO. FILEB FEEH 910m CASINO CONTROL COM MISS-ION Civil'Action BRIEF FOR DIVISION OF GAMING ENFORCEMENT IN SUPPORT OF APPLICATION FOR PRELIMINARY PLACEMENT ON EXCLUSION LIST MITCHELL A. SCHWEFEL Assistant Attorney General On the Brief ROBERT J. DEL TUFO Attorney General of New Jersey Attorney for Petitioner State of New Jersey Department of Law and Public Safety Division of Gaming Enforcement CN-047 Trenton, New Jersey 08625 I . INTRODUCTION This is an application to the Casino Control Commission ("Commission") by the Division of Gaming Enforcement ("Division"), pursuant to N.J.A.C. for an order preliminarily placing the name of Robert LiButti a/k/a Robert Libutti on the casino exclusion list pending completion of the plenary hearing on the petition for exclusion captioned State etc. v. Robert LiButti. That petition, which is incorporated herein by reference, charges that Respondent is: 1) an associate of a career or professional offender whose association is such that his presence in a licensed casino establishment would be inimical to the interest of the State of New Jersey or of licensed gaming therein within the meaning of N.J.S.A. 5:12-71 and N.J.A.C. and 2) a person whose presence in a licensed casino establishment would be inimical to the interest of the State of New Jersey or licensed gaming therein within the meaning of N.J.S.A. 5:12-71 and 19:48? 1.3(a) (4). - Under N. . . . an application for preliminary placement on the exclusion list must be "supported by reliable documentary or other evidence," and must be granted if "upon completion of the preliminary exclusion hearing, the Commission determines that the reliable Adocumentary or other supporting evidence establishes a reasonable possibility that the candidate satisfies the criteria for exclusion established by 5:12? 71 and N.J.A.C. Under separate cover, the Division is submitting a number of exhibits consisting of reliable documentary 1 or other evidence in support of its application. In the next section, we will discuss those exhibits, and demonstrate how they establish a reasonable possibility that Respondent satisfies the criteria for exclusion set forth in our petition. II. ARGUMENT As noted above, the Division's petition charges that Respondent is an associate of a career offender, John Gotti, and is also a person whose presence in a licensed casino establishment would be inimical to the interest of the. State of New Jersey or licensed gaming therein. Point below will indicate to the Commission the specific exhibits which support each operative paragraph of the petition. Point will then analyze how the proofs demonstrate Respondent's satisfaction of the exclusionary criteria alleged. A. The Proofs Paragraph 6 of the petition, which summarizes the extent of Respondent's gambling activity, is supported by Exhibit 1. Paragraphs 7 through 10, which detail conversations by Gambino organized crime family associates about Respondent, are supported by Exhibits 2 and 3. Exhibit 4, a decision of the New Jersey Racing Commission denying Respondent's application for licensure as a thoroughbred owner because of Respondent?s previous involvement with the hidden ownership of race horses, also furnishes specific support for Paragraph 10(b). Paragraph 11 through 13, which detail a conversation on August 10, 1990 between Respondent and Edward M. Tracy during which 2 ReSpondent invokes the name of John Gotti, is supported by Exhibit 5. 7 Paragraph 14, alleging the organized crime status of John Gotti, is supported by Exhibits 6 and 7. Paragraphs 15 and 16, which detail a conversation on September 4, 1990 between Respondent and Tracy during which Respondent again invokes the name of John Gotti, is supported by Exhibits 8 and 8A, the tape and transcript of the conversation, respectively. Exhibit 5 5 through 8 explain how the tape came to be made, and Exhibit 9 authenticates the copy of the tape and transcript furnished to the Commission herewith. Paragraph 17 of the petition, which details the disorderly, disruptive and abusive behavior of Respondent at Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino ("Trump Plaza"), is supported by Exhibits 10 through 18, consisting of excerpts of the sworn testimony of Trump Plaza personnel at the hearing before the Office of Administrative Law on the Division's complaint in State etc. v. Trump Plaza Assoc. a Trum Plaza Hotel and asino, OAL Dkt. No. 2290-89, Agency Dkt. No. 89-247. Paragraph 17 is also supported by Exhibit 19, the initial decision of the GAL in the Trump Plaza case. B. A??li?l? As demonstrated by the Division's exclusion petition and exhibits, Respondent is clearly one of the heaviest gamblerSu-and biggest money losers--that Atlantic City has ever seen. It is also clear that Respondent's conduct in our casinos has been thoroughly obnoxious and disorderly; as summarized by the GAL: Mr. Libutti was known to be abusive to people around him when he was losing at a gaming table. He was abusive to his family members, his employees, people merely passing by or watching his game and, employees at Trump Plaza. He would shout Obscenities to no person in particular or to a specific person. Some of his abusive language had sexual and/or racial overtones. Libutti has been observed throwing dice into a chandelier and at the security booth. He has also been observed throwing gaming chips (value chips) in the pit and aisles of the casino floor. [Exhibit 19 at Respondent obviously believed that his status as a "high roller" or "preferred customer" would insulate his misconduct from any external constraints. Respondent's belief was well~founded, as noted in the telling testimony of one Trump Plaza employee: Q. If a player betting $5 or 310 had done the things Mr. Libutti had done, what do you think would happen to that player? A. They would be literally thrown out of the casino; no questions asked. Q. Have you seen players evicted from a table or from the casino? A. Yes. And for things that were--weren't even close to what Mr. Libutti has done there. Q. Did you ever see directly any supervisor? reprimand Mr. Libutti for his actions at the craps table? A. No. Q. Did you see any Trump Plaza executive ever reprimand Mr. Libutti for his actions at the craps table? A. No. [Exhibit 12 at 49-50]. Still, the fact that a casino was unwilling to take action against its high?rolling patron has no bearing on this Commission's ability to exclude Respondent for his disorderly conduct. But for the admirable restraint of Trump Plaza?s staff?-which arose from a belief that Respondent was more important to the casino than its employees (see Exhibit 15 at vile ethnic, racial and sexual slurs could well have precipitated a physical altercation. As bad as the foregoing activities are, they pale in comparison to the sinister and chilling statements made by Respondent to Edward Tracy. During the course of two conversations (see Exhibits 5, 8 and 8A), Respondent tried to coerce a disguised payment of $250,000 from a casino while repeatedly invoking the name and influence of John Gotti, the notorious boss of the Gambino organized crime family of New York City. In Respondent?s own recorded words: "We sat in front of John Gotti, about six weeks ago"; and "Gotti wants me to find out if he can him down to one of the joints that joint will have all the f__kin wise guys from all over the (Exhibit 8A at 16,25). The bringing of organized crime influence to bear on the casino attempted by Respondent herein?-is universally regarded as the greatest evil ?to be eliminated by the casino regulators. gee, eyg., In re Martin, 90 34;. 295, 329 (1982); gt. Dept. of Law p. gaf. v. Merlino, 216 N.g. super. 579, 586-587 (App. Div. 1987), aff'd o.b. 109 134 (1988); ?atteru_gf_?gt?l and Restaurant Emp. and Bartend., 203 N.J. Super. 297, 326?328 I 5 (App. Div.), certif. den. 102 34;. 352 (1985), ggrg. den. 475 Egg. 1085 (1986); In re Boardwalk Reqencv Casino License Application, 180 N.J. Super. 324, 340-342 (App. Div.. 1981), aff'd as mod. 90 EAQ. 361, app. dism. 459 1081 (1982); In re Resorts Casino Application, 10 N.J.A.R. 244, 255-256 (Casino Control Comm'n 1979). Of course, Respondent may contend that he is really not associated with Gotti, and was merely "dropping" Gotti's name. At this stage of the proceeding, however, the Commission should accept Respondent's representations on the tape at face value. As noted in State v. Phelps, 96 mpg. 500, 511 (1984), the inherent trustworthiness of a declaration against interest is considered to be especially strong because of the likelihood that the declarant would not have made a declaration contrary to his best interests unless it was truthful. This is precisely the rationale for the radmission of hearsay declarations against interest in judicial proceedings. See Egig. 3. 63 (10). The credibility of Respondent's claims regarding an association with Gotti are also bolstered greatly by the statements of the Gambino associates (see Exhibits 2 and 3). To ask the obvious questions, why would Gambino crime family associates falsely claim to know Respondent? How would they know that Respondent was "in (Donald) Trump's pockets," i?e. in the process of obtaining a lucrative contract for Jimmy Roselli at the Trump Plaza? And how would they know that Respondent "had run a number of scams with horses"? No non-incriminatory answers to these questions readily suggest themselves. CONCLUSION Based on the evidence submitted herewith, and for all the reasons stated herein, the Division has established a reasonable possibility that Respondent satisfies the criteria for exclusion set forth in N.J.A.C. and (4). Accordingly, the Division's application for preliminary placement of Respondent's name on the casino exclusion list should be granted by the Commission. Respectfully submitted, ROBERT J. DEL TUFO Attorney General of New Jersey itchell A. Sc wefel Assistant Attorney Gen MITCHELL A. SCHWEFEL Assistant Attorney General On the Brief Dated: February 19, 1991 2591/4 ET RL Libutti enters office. Says hello to womanEdward Tracy/Robert Libutti Conversation 9/4/90 Edward Tracy Robert Libutti What's happening? Nothing much. ?How's business? Good. (Inaudible) Not bad considering. The problem is that the place is so damn big, Bob we got to herd them through here, we do 150 to 175,000 people on Saturdays (inaudible) And table games does great it's the slots that are still kind of sagging. But we ah hopefully get something going here in the next couple of weeks because (inaudible) Did you ever get the problem fixed? The one we went through. No, well the problem is design was dependent on these automatic coin changers. Right. Which didn't. work right. Because they were designed to have an 8 hour supply of coin. We were lucky if they lasted 45 minutes to an hour. Geez And if you can?t get the coin out, you got no slot business. So, because they had all those, there weren't any slot booth locations on the floor and there were no slot attendants to make change. So we had to go out and build the, build the booths, get on the floor, hire like 120 people ah to make the change service happen. And that caused the impression And by that time, messed up, I can't tell you. 1 (Inaudible) They say rumor was out that he had them whacked out. Ha Ha That he what? He had them whacked out. I'm serious. I was quite disgusted to think that, what happened here Well, anyway. Um, you. get a word from Gary that we?ll move ahead with October correct? Yeah, October 5th. Yeahb That's what was there. And the problem that's remaining is the 250 number. Right no way can I make that happen. The only thing I can possibly think of is that when we get back into it, into action, it will make things a lot simpler. My problemsis a simple one.r It's that the banks will see everything., Donalda doesn't sneeze without them holding. a hankerchief for.h?ga And nothing we can do about-it. We cannot make- a deal, that on paper doesn?t make eoenomie sense. They'd-just throwwlt back at us and ?say.what's this? Why-would you do this? Let me ask you thiSw Are you taking Roselli next year or not? I'd absolutelyaa I got to know-what that.numbers got to be:for next year? All.right_youaknow when that numbers got to be finisheds: You can get that at the Sands, you can get even get more with Jack O'Donnell. I was up there at Jack O'Donnell's house last week. How long were you there? Two weeks ago. Two weeks ago. You know he's getting a job Right They would beat anybody's offer. Ahuh The point I.want to make I can get-Roselli, as a favor to me because it cost me~ $350,000 dollars, to put. him in 4there, to put him (Inaudible) $600,000 dollarSa? 2 ?E?hhim to sign a contract for the same fiftyv be saving, ah $24,000 dollars per show.? And at 15 shows not oniy? are you getting the 250 back, your getting another buck and a quarter to resolve my problem. proble?, Right And you have Roselli he's, you know I'll never get him to Sign for two years, but take him for one year with an option. first Will he do a year with an Option? Yeah. Book him: I got 1700 new names. People he's got his own record company Right. And there are 1,700 new gave 7000 names a year a year ago when he started here so there's another she wants to send flyers out Ahuh So this area that would show why you of giving him a bonus, instead of give'em the 80' thousand a show. Your goina say let me give him the bonus and, sign up. And if you want something in writing from the other I mean I can even get that. If they want it. I mean they want him. Probably be What are you hearing in the market place? Business is down, its a diaster. Horrible, horrible, horible. These guys are going to have to go out and beat the drums to get the business that's what it amounts to The whole town is hit. The whole town is dead (telephone rings) (conversation blocked by phone rings) You know what I mean? Yeah. Plus you give them (Phone continues to ring - Tracy answers phone) discussion continues in a low tone. Unable to make out portions of exchange. He was really the guy who saved the whole thing. he lost Ivanna Ahuh. I On t0p of the economy. He doesn't want to be part of it, there's nothing to be a part of anymore. Somebody better create a new illusion. What do you think? Do you think he builds it back or do we do it ourselves? I think without Donald Trump there would be no Atlantic City. know that., But I'm saying, they're using an image, it's going to take him 6 months to recover from all still staying with Marla You don't think so? Nah. I you know, I'm very close with talk to people from Florida, Kentucky, California, Chicago, New York, New Jersey all said the same thing. Ahuh. Tell him to get rid of the broad. Yea. At least publicly. (laugh) (soft conversation) Unreal I don't going to He better get that aggressiveness back. And all this bad hype, you is taking shots at Ah, its killing him. But choose that life, to live it in the paper. I hear it all the time from slot simple as An of course the competitors are saying Lit. 4 don't go_ to Trump anymore because he's turned up his hold percentage. It's insane, but that's what alot of the people are You Its a nightmare. Trump didn't say it. Nightmare. But I still lookin to dump the other joint, I assume? Right? Get out of that joint. There's no buyers out there, Bob. Take a loss. Create a ma:ket. We're trying to do that, but the problem is most of the buyers out there, who can get financing or have cash, don't want to go through the regulatory process. They're not interested in having their underwear looked at. You walk away from that place What the heck can you do? Eventually Well that?s what I would Well I think the key there is to get the bonds restructured, and keep it, with a lower debt. He was told, that you can't be true to two places, how can you be true with three? Trump Plaza was a winner. Trump Castle was always like 60-70 at its height. Ahuh. So you can imagine being with Trump couldn't carry two makes him think, or what made him was told this.? I told him this right in the helicopter with ah, Ivana and my daughter one night. What makes him think that he can carry three? He was trying of two. Correct? Could the blood, that it obtained carry it, keep it alive? And the answer is no. essence. However, some people who would blow that place overflow action place has to generate it on its new. Curiosity will keep this going, until that economy turns, gotta get out of that that place makes a loser out of these two joints. That's all everybody talks about. 15 million, l7~ 5 ETmillion, 13 million, 14 million, I mean its crazy. And you guys are getting the rap for it. What can you do? You get a guy like fuckin work. Twenty hours a day, seven days a week and that ain't enough You getting new personnel is not the answer. You There's a couple of moves you could make at the a spring board. Who do you like over there? Number one your shouldv?e? Over thereJim Regan. Oh that Jim Regan over at the Trop? OVer at the Trop Yea, I met lookin guy Bobby Yee. Is not going to he was still over at the Plaza, cause Bobby Yee owes one of these ..in most of all what you really need now is ah Not only for the customers, but the help love him. And He's like a king now, I'm telling ya I told Jack can get him a winning is and Charlie like..go home! I don?t know He?s not a New and he agrees to take him. Jack didn't call me. Jimmy So do you agree? Oh, Yeah. Jack I see Therefore, to expect it. Very happy there, but I mean that's one move you should make over there. Get a new boss tor the casino end of it. Change the personnel people. People love him. You got people over always a beefon the table, you know that. Certain way to handle way to handle giving the customer a freaking thing. . Right . You can handle it giving the customer back his money and the way you handle it and they even have you for doing it? Things like that. I mean use to Plaza was made the place that it was. It was a family oriented kind of atmosphere. The ambiance was family oriented.' You went to the craps He was winning 100, 200 thousand, he was embarrassed to quit. Ah, won it so could play. Ahuh Now its just the opposite. It's I want to get the edge soon as I get the them! It's like a war. Between the people in the at don't ?want that type of atmosphere. Ahuh And what creates that personnel, bosses. You got a guy over there with, Can't even get the weather out of him. It's a beautiful day today, look at the sun, yeah, not bad, its not sunny, looks like rain, could be cold, maybe its know what I mean? That's number one. they had Howard who's no bargain. Thank God you got rid of with him. I mean he is and George Garvin nothing. an people resent. And, this is why away as much as it should. You don't like it, too dry? The Baccarat players, your blackjack players, they don't like the atmosphere in the room anymore. RL - guess you're torn in the middle over here, you donknow what joint to take care of. Well like having 3 kids in a 3 room brawl. It's the situation that I'm in is you got to put out the biggest fire first. The biggest fire is obviously getting the bonds restructured here. You of a sudden instead of dealing with my normal business, I've got 3 investment whole new wrath of financial peeple running the computer printouts every 15 minutes. But it has to be there is no survival. We've got to change the whole structure of this company, how the debt there's no company. Is it workable? Will he be able to do it? It's workable, but we got to get the bondholders to agree with it by November 15th. What choice do they have? They have none. In the end, they have no choice. It's a matter of how much of a haircut it will take. How much will they buy, how much of a of these guys who bought at be asking them to cents on the dollar. Better than nothing! Agreed. There's a long distance from getting to having said having, getting it done. You got factions moving the bondholder representations and everyone wants to hold off to the end. To see who gets the best deal. Of course, it?s do?able because nthe only, the only other option is to file a Chapter. And if we do that then they can't get anything for 3-4 years. Probably 3 years. Not even an interest. I I think he should use the Castle as a weather mill. Everybody thinks that he feels that he's too this to one of those companies. His name is not the same name. He's got nothing to protect no far as that goes. If anything should be aggressive and whatever it end justifies the do it. Donald Show the I'm going to show you with the Castle what I'm going to do bing done. Now, you guys want to play ball with me in this place, if not don't give a it. You watch they'll do it. They know he's a fuckin mad man. he's lost that Walks around like a fuckin banana. I can't believe its Donald Trump. I don't understand it. Yeah I know you were shocked when you saw him. Yeah. I can't believe it. My hero. Broke my fucking heart. My fucking idol, I wanted to grow up like him. Ha. Bet you have more money than he does. Yeah. He had it all. How's everything else going? Alright. Good. You know we got this time right now. Getting ready for the Breeders Cup. Dying to fuckin play. Can't play. I mean my nephew wanted me to walk I wouldn't even walk through the casinos. I don't want the guy to get known. Told that I?m here. Yeah. The things is dead and is dying out and I want it to just get it over with. There's no way that you get something in writing, proving that its over. So I just wait. And we're waiting. And so lets just walk into Showboat.. I wouldn't walk into never seen Showboat. Ah, I'm really ah just sitting chomping at the really am. I was giving thought to going to Vegas, then I thought, ah, fuck it. What am I going to accomplish giving them my money. What do you think, Jack going to be happy next door? I think you guys should have grabbed him. When you's could of. You really should've. You don't have really a soldier in the ET - Ahuh. RL - How much can you lose to over there? I'm seriousthe fucking brunt of yeah you got a lot of yes men around, they'll follow your orders and do this here and do that you need_ people with you need some kind of input. Your mind may be zoned right now bonds are the prevalent thing in your brain and its the little things on the outside that your not covering the base. Somebody?s going to steal a base. You know what I'm taking about? Ahuh. You don't have huncho thing. gone but, who cares. know Pellie is going to leave. If he leaves Jules you lose those 2 Gary is under the impression that you just keep hiring hosts. Whoever he hires won't help a thing. Don't work like that. First of all, them guys have to be premier hosts with a name. They find the people that the gaff and hook up big They got a majority of all the racket they know. You know what I mean? Ah, I went to that thing in New York with that unintelligent kid on the block. You know I've trying to get her for 7 years. all that stuff.? That's good you got, ah an atmosphere where..the town is jumpin. So' let's grab that, let's grab that, let's grab_ that. You remember how they were doing Bally down there 3 years ago? They rob you, they rob this guy, they rob that guy. It was not jumpin right now. So you got this gem in every arena room is doing anything about it. Now the lowest guy down on the totem pole. They all say the same thing. Nobody gives a fuck so neither do' we. Nobody cares. I know you care. You care. ET you bet 10 That's when its for Gary. This is between you and I. They're promoting Puerto Rico, and that's a good (out off) I don't think he's promoting Puerto Rico. He's getting some players to go down to Puerto Pellie's I gave him permission to asked me. I'll be going down there Huh? I'll be going down there. There's a lot of promotion going on before that. I was offered to go down mean I couldn't play up here, cause of the I.R.S. Why would you want to send me down there? Why should I blow 6-7 million dollars down when I got an okay to am I suppose to do Were not asking you to do that? I was asked. By (Lee)? No. Just to give you an idea of what's going happening right in this place right here. You got people here promoting the It's not right. That?s whats going on. Why don't you do don't you go out you do this. I can get you can get you that fuckin queers, its crazy. Never had any of that. Never. I told one guy why don't you go to fuckin work out you've going to promote it..so much. Cause you're going to get yourself fuckin fired I 2 minutes. Ah, nobody cares. You'll have a new boss, you'll never know when you'll hav a new boss here. They change hats like you change toilet paper rolls. Yeah. That happens. Its happened this company. You got to other words..your looking to a foundation to get back. You start at the bottom, right? Musn't you have every base covered? Absolutely ll RL - That's my point. (unintelligent) Jack O'Donnell that cock ET RL ET RL sucker would have cleaned have got all that bad fuckin waste with out a doubt. like on Saturday nights your suppose to be in the they say what?? Who said itgood you didn?t want the guy. he walked out..he walked out I know he must be doing the same thing to you, in fact he was talking to my nephew about that just two days I said a guarantee, I said out. Ed Tracy and Gary are not making no big dollars, but they got a big promise. Now normally you always get that promise if your Jack's case he didn't. So, Jack is in a position I hurt you's. I really do. He had an option to takin' Bally Grand or Resorts. And by taking Resorts they got fresh got probably the only wealthy man in Atlantic City got the bucks. He?s got the right move. Right? So he doesn't have that much money could he have think $35 million that first got another 25, 40 million out. That's nothing. He sold the company for over half a bil.. So, that and ..if he gets a couple of not that many key men left over there, but if he? can get Pellie out of there, you get Jules out of hurt ya. Pellies the kind of guy, that you got to always let him think you need him Ahuh Steve Hyde really hated him, but he used to always cajole him, he?s that kind of guy, he's an Italian fuckin muscle Italian, you got to keep happy mentally, cause there's never enough money you can give him, you can give him, you can give him a million dollars a year and that's not going to make happy so forget his 1/2 whatever he gets but uh you got to keep him happy. Jules is a fuckin.Jap he's like a copy cat guy, whatever Pellie does,? Jules does, so he'll do it'a little better but Pellieis got to do it 12 ET RL ET RL that's what the Japs do, you come up with an idea they'll built it better and whole things like a science Ed and it doesn't take much to get that chain It really doesn't it's just a lot of chickenshit bullshit that goes on there. I happened to hear this, you know I talk to a lot of people. You don't know you may not know I was responsible for most of it, not most of it but a good portion of that place being as successful as it not a week goes by I don't send at least 100 - 150 people embarrassing to me. I watch a lot of people being destroyed people Manufacturers in N.Y. thank God they got a rich son, the son is a manager of a guy Speilberger so the son gave the father the courage to run- these guys went through like $4 million every other week then one partner would come down and the other partner would come down and $25,000, $20,000 a got destroyed in a year. They never take nothin just book em a rooms, give them tickets to a Roselli show every friggen Roselli show, I don't know what it cost them. Bob you're going to be there, right Bob you're? going to be always wanted me get back? now to my problem we could do it like you. want, I just want to get it .;32 everything that's going on, you followeme? Yee* Why?wrl A ,3 21d I get beatfh It's not Donald' money or your money or something..ebut it is my money so why should I get heat so same bankerlor some stockholder or bondholder at a future date. They salvage that much more it bugs me and Vtell you the truth there was a time like now you know we don't have to bet but like 3 or 4 months ago 13 that I even made up my mind that I wasn't going to gamble until I got my money so I felt like it was hard fighting against my own realize your position and uh if you can make it _you know you got to be crazy they have to be crazy not to take the deal to get? Roselli packs them in Atlantic City like Roselli he don't work nowhere 4 or 5 months 75? 90 thousand a show. Once before he was working here there were 7,000 people had to sit out on the the Palladium he had to do a second show at about that's 3 shows that's in of the record and he only works in Atlantic City; How does he do in England? Sell ate every freakin thing they gave him a thing people on 8 first class Concord 3 week vacation - 2 weeks in Italy, on top of all the salary he got 42,000 would that come $84,000 Should be going to Oxford in about 3 weeks You're going to Oxford Yea Not a bad school Where did you graduate from? I went to Trinity in Dublin Ireland which is a sister college I got a scholarship my semester there and I went to graduate school at the University of Missouri and then- .Cornell. Its a good school, I think Mark went to that school too right? Yea, they probably have the best hotel program plus well respected. So what do you think of that because remember I gotta always, you see I have to handle it very diligently with him, very got to put up with all his him out to eat and all this he got a divorce his wife gets half of what he why he 14 ?gnip?ggn; make, he don't want to earn it, He's got 12 milliothe's sitting on, the record company makes another 4 or $500,0007a year before taxes, he lives ok he doesn't touch the 12 million and uh he gave her the house he gave her everything he was with a girl for 21 years and he got caught. Married for 25 engaged for 21. Yea that's right. I cheated on my knew in I was ha ha Well it's a new day in Trumpville, I can tell you have Changed it's not, like it used to be no more what do you want to do? That's ok We got to make a great deal with the bondholders then a good deal with the bondholders at the Plaza will be ok 45 million Investment the weekend and today and tonight You really wouldn't let go of the Plaza in Now you got to get the grave dancers off and if you can't get out of it and make back what he has into it least he keep the cash flow if you hold it. Take the can't afford too many hits on this a very thin margin for error these day's it used to be it didn?t make any difference, it all happened in one Plaza the Shuttle, lost $70 uh That Shuttle was a bigger mistake then this joint This one will be alright it's getting the debt service down to a reasonable amount. Sell the two joints, that's a billion dollars that 1/2 billion if put in on here practically wipe 300 million dollars If he could have done it right, started it the way it should have started it would probably throw off 100,000, 125,000, 135 million the first but they took it cheap and 15 opened it didn?t I'm sitting here with the consequences. But that was his his brother nice guy nice guy But he didn?t stay here Mark Etess was here for two years. I think the worst thing that could have happened was that Mark got closer to Donald than Steve and Mark got to start calling the shots Do you think that really happened? Oh yea, it definitely happened he got closer. Steve was running around How many years did Steve say he was gonna stay here? He told me that's when he hired me he told me two years and I'm out. He said it would take one year to finish. He said I'm going to take one year to construct. He said I'm gone, its all over Mark was making a lot of bloopers but don't unreal; So what.do you think? Should we try that move, Do you want to try that move, try that move?" I want to keep him in the family I think he's been good for us Next time he.plays here he'll drag in more than Sinatra I mean Sinatra got to go a buck, buck and a He's suppose to be here in He's already trying to rob Jimmy's musicians Oh really Yea Those two have a feud going for 20 years Oh yea We sat in front of John Gotti, about six weeks ago, seven weeks ago and John said you want me to handle it for you right now, Jim I'll fuck me right No he says fuck him off our case. Is he here the same weekend? 16 RL - Yea at the Sands, in fact, he opens one day sooner, ThursdayFriday, Saturday and Sunday we are here Friday, Saturday and Sunday like I told him I said we should go on Thursday too, and really wreck him, because on a Thursday he'll Nothing at Bally Grand? No If Jules only listens to me I hope he does this time this is where we got 1700 people who put their money these aren't fans who listen to radio they buy records send all over two weeks at least 500 tickets at the show Sell out automatically and everything is a struggle you know it's crazy the man sells tickets this show get sold - phone rings - Excuse me know where he is I'll call him back You got to get rid of that picture, Ed one? He hates it. he hates it. Terrible, you know what that reminds me he died ?that's got to give him I think that's what bothers him, too Like a bad illusion to a What did it cost something like that? This one it didn't cost nothing it was a gift. I'll tell you a funny story, somebody from the Tunisian Gov't wrote to me and said they would like to display it in the Well what did you tell them? Send it to them compliments it's bad. Jesus Christ it's even more depressing here and you got to work in here Under the diligent eyes of the owner. Put a cover over it Put a little black sash over it make it look like a funeral parlor Does he ever come here or just to the Castle? 17 comes, whenever he's in town I take him around to all 3 properties He hasn't been down in awhile though he used to come every weekend with Startled him Power She's not even that nice.. I mean he was a nice looking guy but he's getting ugly now. He really is but he was a nice looking guy Ha Ha Ha Girls would have killed themselves for him. So tell me how you want to structure this again? We'll take the money off his contract so that we got, he?s 'gotta answer to justify a way to give him the bonus so we'll say, we'll say listen he wanted a $30,000 increase per show.. o.k. you got him to do the show for the same $56,500, with a bonus if he signed for a year and 1 year in the future Uhuh; and uh I get the bonus of 2&0 i That 250 can we pay that over time% aimam?isay hai?>on signing the contract and half ggyaal? 1/2 is only a buck and a quarter it not fiU not costing yen nothing, absolutely nothing =Alright, I ll tell you for sure tomorrow? uty let me know tomorrow because I have he ow .about.it he said to me like last week he said mg on with my contract The October contracts done right? Then he's all set with his musicians? There's no problem 18 RL - Ah he had a trumpet player that just come off the road with ET RL ET RL Glen Miller.. 10 hours, they got him, they all cost money Alright He stole our violin section cause they came from around here, ah Philadelphia so ah he stole we were gonna fire him, anyway so it didn't was with Jimmy for 4 years and he had to, so like anything els, when you get older, you grow older. so he didn't get no bargain we'll be set, we'll knock their jock off believe me you?ll see That will be interesting to see of course he doesn't have to work that hard, how many seats at the Sands 700 That guy Luciani he called the counsel. 8,000 But ah, the fact is that the best What I'm really doing in essence I would get something off the tail and instead of me getting it off the tail end I'm washing away my own brain till I get my own resolve, so that I can keep face ah believe me like I told you I even told Gary I don't know if Gary told ya when you write that there check I'm gonna make him put it in the window and take a shot with it, I don't need the money believe me when I tell you knock on It's not because of the in fact I'm going have to pay taxes on top of that money after I pay taxes on top of the fucking $1.2 million that I got hit with. The whole case, you see the last case that we got to go up against Gaming Enforcement, right, their case said I got cars, I got money, one of ?the guys got cars that wasn't so, but that's what happened but that wasn't but if I wanted to do him a gift, I'd do him a gift. 19 Okay so you never know it, I mean there was one day in particular I went to the crap table I was in a hurry, I had to get back,? I had my daughter down in A.C. I went to the crap table $350,000 and I sevened bop My chauffeur, Lolo at the. time, he's a small better, he won $18,000 so now I'm checking out checking, as I'm checking out he comes in the window they call Donald ?2 he goes in his pocket and takes out the fuckin check and goes I want to present this to you myself I felt like, can I fuckin quit now? I get killed on the way home, I swear on my dead mother God Bless her soul. You ask Jose or any of the guys around I turn around and I open up I won the 350 I lost the 350 in a matter of 10- 15 minutes, plus my $200,000 buy in, 1/2 get that jerk out I get that jerk months after I go and I swap I take the car and this guy gives me a check in return for a check. A little paper work is done I don't take physical delivery of the got a garage full of my own cars come down here every one of them checks I ever got him I blew cause I blew with the intent that I won it, it took me 10 hour 12? hours-to lose it, I would lose it, some of the checks were just gifts that I had coming. like Steve would always every like everytime I lose a mil, go in there, give me a car, send my wife on but anyway I get hit with this thing 3 yearSalater plus this whole investigation is over this thingwI mean I got a criminal investigation where I could of they said I did not file a complete tax returi. who knows that I was getting a 1099 from the casino I had no idea he said you were getting gifts it's you're responsibility to report the gifts. fuckin 1099's Then everybody else woke up like I woke up one we all got 1099's 3 years down the line 86, 87 like that shit. Anyway it was a fuckin nightmare. to offset a lot of these things and like a lot of thing like there like a 20 ET RL ET RL Dominic Caputo he owes the joint $500,000 That was the thing Steve and Mark created Mark was still alive, yea And one day there was a big argument and everything else that went on and $200,000 $200,000 a month later put if on the computer Before you know Caputo got a fuckin $500,000 marker, he's a $100,000 winner on the computer, alright, but they know that that money's not owed so that was one then a guy Jim Roberts owed $40,000 had a guy Joe Barter and that was that resulted in a problem because there was a lawsuit that had nothing to do with the casino. I was suing him for horses to make a long story short they made him eat it, made him pay but as a witness that it wasn't his I told Jack, put the screws to him and Jack did he settled it for 20,000, 25,000 was 50,000 anyway there are a couple of them things over there that you know they shouldn't be bothering them because they could be another fuckin they sent letters a year ago you they don't owe the money Uhuh And uh when are we going to eat with what are those people fuckin they're bothering my lawyer again I said everything is in turmoil there nobody knows anything I said Gary don't know nothin about that stuff I never told him. In fact, I'm mad at him I called him before I go home I got a call back now he can go fuck himself he didn't call back I only call once. The guy don't call me, figure he's busy. I know it's down on the book he'll call you the next day or the next day, but anyway he didn't, he'll have 400 excuses. It's a non- professional way of working. When I'm back in action down there he can kiss my fuckin dick. Please Because I insight like guys insight arguments trouble, I insight people to gamble, I had people gambling at tables that 21 they never dreamed that they would can't believe what happens is that You know, It's good for business but anyway if you want but anyway if? you want to do that let me know tomorrow and ah we can work that if you want to just do a hundred upon signing the contract uh 50 in 3 months because it's going to be the winter months and a 100 the next 3 months like that if you do it like that if you want to do the whole shot for $200,000 throw the $200,000 down the fuckin window then you save 300,000 and 30,000 off of the fuckin show you're savein 360,000 on shows so you're really way ahead I mean like it's utterly ridiculousfi. This here to, will you tell what you got to tell over there to get off of it I'll talk to Jerry So how does that deal sound to you? more powerful What's the trouble. It's kind of embarrassing for me because of in the old days just you whatever? I understand I mean believe me when I tell troubles I'd much rather been writing this thing when it was at the top It just means the upside when it comes is all that much better assuming we make it Keep me posted man. I don't always here the whole story from the you know I hear what they want me to hear. I sometime I got to go sneak around to find out who's doing what to you got to do that. Talk to Pellie? I'll give him anything he wants Oh good He's a tough guy a tough to deal with You got to keep him happy or otherwise, he's a fuckin I hadhhim at the table last week. 22 Where the fuck you think you're going? I'm going with Jackie I said you're going with Jackie you think you got a Donald Trump over there with Merv Griffin where you have everything you want after one month they will cut your fuckin umbilical cord then what are you going to ah I'll go to Caesars, Caesars will never take you after they'll take you for $150 maybe They don't want him now, he's an expensive date Yea he is He's nervous because he's not producing the numbers he use to produce, nobody he's just going to have to get used to it We didn't bother him but confidence I got a job me coming so they are jumping the gun We didn't bother him. But we bothered Jules and Bob and another guy he was supposed to See the problem is that the Taj sucked up so much of that free business, They used to walk in the Plaza because it was Donald's place they go to Caesars or go to the Trop and then come over to us just because they wanted to hit one of Donald's places and unfortunately nobody paid attention to their business Bob. Nobody patted them on the back And guess what when this place opened they went right down the boardwalk they went. And they didn't have a way to keep track of those peOple so the only answer is bring them business. .go out markets really weren't doing that good come back a dove; it dove in June now it's coming back little bit and Gary's the new guy, he's trying to find his way through all of this you look at the job these guys got on their hands, the ?personalities. I think Gary's not making any fuckin progress, his mentality he'll ask them sixteen years with every Sunday what does he 23 sticks his nose in areas that are not on the table. It's stupid talked to him about He came up with a fuckin gimmick -with me about the says ah, about receipts. You want me to give clients a cut of If I want to see a fuckin football game-I pay $500 and get my own seat, I'd rather see it at home. I'll go tell Gary about I said are you out of you're fucking mind? I said I'll get you copies of the things before they get out up. Stupid things I'm telling you Jesus Christ almighty. Anyway with the cars can keep kid guy stays at the Plaza? Is that the way it's going to be? Yea You don't need no I'm like a little embassy out there. No, I understand. If you feel that you got to start promoting this joint, you get in trouble here. We will do everything that we've done for that place. You know what I mean. I would have to bond it incompletely -- this is like make a commitment here okay. This is one point. That would be one point. No no. Otherwise, you dilute them and then you gonna lose them like stray sheep. perhaps. you want to put Roselli here? You many does the room hold? The room holds ah 1,200 and the arena hold ah 5,000 Alright, forget about it, I don't know what I have 5,000 drunken people ah gamblers you have them know you have them here for New Years Eve, you know, what do you do next year? Does he want come to here? 24 CSshould thing about. But uh more guys, guys like Gotti, people loosen up on. Fuckin $75,000 a continental,? Who. these guys can't come down here and play, can?t come down? That's exactly the Is it? Yea. That's what they lose? They're banned, they're banned! So you can imagine the money that a, I mean I sneaked them in a couple of times and I think a couple now are allowed to come but I got to find out. Gotti wants me to find out if he can come. He said he never got a if he never got a lawyer never got a means he's not barred. I mean, ah, Get him down to one of these joints that joint will have all the fuckin wise guys from all over the country, gift from anybody can help not talking about talking to no associated that I wouldn't even introduce you to or you'd even want to get know, but these about it, but I mean in two minutes, but, hey, he's a customers, the guy- comes in and burns up $100,000, $200,000 at a table and a bunch of guys come with him. I thought Gary was going to try to put Snipes in here He puts Snipes in and they tell him $5,000,000 drop Renaldo Snipes? Snipes, that was was alright, that guy over there said look-?Snipes should be on Tyson's card, period, done. I think Tyson's probably out for the fight. Yea Although Spinks (Inaudible) 25 RL - It's a sad fuckin case it really does a guy in the ring with head gear on get butted like that? How could it happen? I mean if Kevin Rooney was there it would have never happened Kevin Rooney would have shot the guy before it could happen. It's management. ET - Well, they said it was a freakthe canvas and he fell forward and hit Mike in the head. I wasn't there very creative I'll tell A cheap fight very cheap fight. RL - Throw Snipes in there, I'm telling you, throw Snipes at that guy or throw him over here, you want to get action here I'll show you action, you put Snipes in here on a Main Event O.K. throw Snipes in here, you will get the kind of player that Tyson will draw at the Plaza. I kid you not. ET King wants a fight RL - I mean King wants a fight. But I don't know they're dreaming, they got a guy over there that books fights but he's the laughing stock of everything he wants atmosphere. He's a laughing stock. RL - This fuckin thing-you drive me crazy. Anyway, alright Ed that?s what we?ll do ET - I apologize for taking so much know RL - Ah look, I know I know how, what you're going through. Believe me. ET - Every week it's a new cast of characters ET - Good Luck - all right - see you later. Stay out of trouble. RL - He graduated John Hopkins six month ahead of he hung out with me ET - Now there's an education. RL - All right Ed thanks 92190/8jh 26