EXHIBIT B-l 10 ll 12 13 14 .15- 60 {50:15 Legend HH: GS: TH: HS: LL: PA: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Hamid Hayat Gary Schaaf Timothy M. Harrison Harry Sweeney Leticia Lucero Pedro T. Aguilar unintelligible Beginning of Video Tape 1 of 4 16:47:10 (5/4/05) GS: 16 - HH: ;47:28 GS: . 'Um I just got called in here so I'm a little behind the the curve a bit but uh-I understand you have some information that you?ve been providing about some things of of uh importance to us. Uh huh. . And so I want to thank you initially for that. Oh that's my job for my country you know. Uh huh, I appreciate.that. In that regard where um I'm gonna, we?d like we we're probably going to monitor. this (HH nodding) just just to, it will make it ea51er -to go back and take notes (HH nodding) and all that kind of stuff-if you're 0k with that, so. Is that alright? Yes. (Nodding yes) 0k. . Hey Gary so you-know we've talked about it a little bit 'and I've explained some of the things that Hamid has has talked about and what I asked him before you came in uh is to talk about.those things (HH nodding). to tell the one hundred percent truth and and I know you know that you're going to do that and and we'll help you uh certainly uh with with in going over some of those things but but again the important factor is uh is even those things that you may not have talked about up to this point real important that you you talk (HH nodding) about_to help you and to help us. . Uh huh. .(Nodding Head) . And we_appreciate that. Now my understanding uh Hamid is that you uh you' 60:50:15 HH: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: G3: G3: 16:49:16 - GS: 27 28 Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 attended sOme-camps. 0k. Um and that's that's true right? (HH nodding) And and so why don't you tell me so'I Iunderstand I know where you' re coming from, bring me up to speed a little bit on on on the camps that you attended. Um you mean what kind of camp were they? Yes. Uh they were like you know_like uh training camps. 0k. You know they train you. Uh huh. Once you get oyer there you know they look at the person that how much he. weigh to the body and you know like. weight. Take a good look at you and what you'd be Yeah. .good at and hat kind of stuff Yeah that kind of stuff you. .know. Like I was telling .uh sir right here you know (points to HS). Uh huh.. Like you know. . . uh you know if you' re not that good they won't like give you any good stuff like that move forward and like that. Uh huh. the camps are like that. So you were and you you just came back into the country from what uh is that correctyou attended these camps when you were Overseas here jus-t recently, so one of the things. one of the things I'm hoping to help with is-maybe some geography a little bit on where these were and my 2 '27 23' 60:50:15 HH: I GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: .HS: GS: -Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 understanding briefly was that you are from uh a small village called, Behboodi_ Behboodi and that's near where? It?s near Islamabad, two hours away from there, two. one and a half hour or two hours away. 0k. And you went to camp from Behboodi? (Burps) I'm sorry, from it was from Pindi. Oh from Pindi. I Yeah. Ok so you You know that city Yeah Rawalpindi, so your in Rawalpindi which is outside Islamabad. Yeah it's-um with Islamabad like Stockton-Lodi. Yea, it's like a suburb; . Exaotly. Right, so you're in Pindi at uh what were you doing in Pindi? -I went to my grandmother's house over there uh I came outside and you know over there I went there you know uh, uh, what's it called its, visit them. Ok. I came out you know you-know after that you know they were those guys you know like I told sir that you have to go with us so Uh hmm.f So- So.so.you were uh you went from Pindi um uh I mean most people go by way of bus or what have you. Yea bus. \1 th- LAJ m? 15 60:50:15 GS: GS: HH: GS: Interview of Hamid This is a fair and don't, don't be too freaked out- about this because this is a routine occurrence (HH nodding) over there and that's you know that's one of the things that I understand that, I mean this happens all the time. So so_you.go by bus uh is that how you went also? Uh So, you-went by bus from Pindi to camp? Uh hmm. Um and there are a number of different camps in that that area sometimes it's a three hour bus ride, sometimes (UI) it's a ten hour bus ride. ISeven_hour, uh seven, You were seven hours Or something like that and you know but I don't remember the way or.anything like that, you know. Well you, I mean, ya?ya?ya you've been to Pindi before 'cause_your family's, you have family there right? Yeah So you you kind of know initally when you' re going out - of Pindi what direction you are. Yea, yea I know that but we don't go forward, What can you tell me about that. When you go forward like where the bus was going'huh. of I don't remember that much where the bus was going. Ok. So you know. Well um tell me initally you now when it?s-initiallyy going. Tell me where it picked you up at first. In.Pindi. Where'abouts though? I know there's a big bus terminal 4 60:50:15 GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat. 6/4-5/05 in Pindi is it or did you start there or did you come back, Uh it was like a what's it called uh dep uh what's-it called sorry, you know uh a bus stand? Uh huh Like that. Ok. So yourself and a number of other people on this bus, . Yea. And where are, is every,-everybody going to camp? Yea some of them you know they uh going to some place else. - So they dropped, you're dropped off (HH nodding) along the way-or what have you. Now, now busses in America 'are different from busses in Pakistan. Yea yea of course they're different. And so some, some of the busses people say a bus um you know they're, they're not as big in, in Pakistan necessarily, were-you on one of the small ones? . The people sit down on the Right on the top huh?_. Right on the top yea. If it gets full from inside, They jump on the top. They sit down on top yea. .So was this, tell me about the bus you were on. Oh we were inside. I I Ok. It'was a big one, not that small one. It was a good_ one. - Ok. So you you're lucky in that regard huh? (HS smiles) So you're uh you're on this bus in Pindi and then you're off to camp in, 5 1 60:50:52:HIE-GS: :52:55 Interview 65 Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Uh In, in in now did you stay in Pakistan or did you cross the border or do you know? No, we were in Pakistan. 0k. 0k tell me about then uh uh when you get there (HH nodding) uh what happens. So seven hours (HH nodding) now ya ya ya you're leaving Pindi you know where you are you know the streets 'cause you got to the bus station there do.you, do you generally start in a Northerly direction or do you go towards the uh into the Northwest Frontier Province do you go uh where uh where are you going. Are you going_towards Kashmir? No we're not-going toward Kashmir. This is like uh you know in uh you know state of Salhad (phonetic), maybe you heard about the name Salhad (phonetic). Uh hum Salhad (phonetic). 0k. It's the State of Salhad (Phonetic). They call it uh, Spell that for me. 'The nickname of, the state is 0k yeah,'right alright. So you're going to the into the northwest, like I said the Northwest Frontier Province (HH nodding) So you're going into uh - And that where I asked some guy and he said we're going into Ok. So, I put that in my mind, that's how I remember where we're going. Going to Alright. So you're off to Uh hmm. 60:50:15 GS: HH: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4?5/05 Um and uh and then you're uh what time do you, do you leave at night or in the daytime or, From where to the camp? From from Pindi yeah. Uh daytime, sir. So you left in daytime. ,Did you arrive in dark or was it,. - Yeah it was dark when we arrived, yes, sir. So, all right. And uh, so tell me, what put, put me in the front seat of the bus. What am I seeing as you're coming into the camp? Uh here I am, I mean through your eyes tell me what you?re seeing as you come out, Um just go inside and you're not gonna go try to take a bus inside. Right. . You have to get out like 3, 4 miles away from there Right and walk Because people, the bus, the people, I mean it's a bit of a secret although No, the bus can't go up there_that's the problemyou're going back up. So this (UI), it's like a mountain.' 0k. But, you know, if you're going up, it's a mountain. Um hmm. Ok, but then when you get there, it's no more like a mountain. . . Um hmm. Like a ?ield or something like that. 7 GS: GS: 60:50:15 Interview of Hamid Hayat. 6/4-5/05 So you get up there then you're in a place obviously because there's training (HH nodding) that goes on there and there's clearly weapons training, there's explosives training that goes-on. Yeah. There's all sorts of different functions (HH nodding) that go on in the camp, correct? So you get up there, 30 you 90 up pathway. I'm sure that they take up the trail and-all sorts of things. Um'hmm. So that's, do you go up the main route into the camp? mean, on walk_we go? YES 'Yeah, we walk. 'Ok. We walk. 0k. And so tell me alright, take me on the.walk. What - happens on the walk? Nothing happen. .Uh, you're up, you're going up for how many miles? 'Uh three, three and a half to four I don?t know so.- And this is, .was it dark or was it light out? Uh you know, it's dark and you have a battery you know? flash light and. 0k, all right. And that takes you a little while. So leading you up the trail? 'Up there? Yeah. Taking us up there? You know, no one's leading you up there, you know just going up there. Get directions? Get~-get direction and then people know that location. 8 60:50:15 2 G8: 7 GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 0k, alright, so. So when you get there, uh, then what happens? Now, some of these camps, aware, I'm aware that, you know, of the variety of groups that are involved in putting these camp on so--so, ands-and we get all sorts of information but I wanna hear you?ryou tell me and what-?what this particular camp, cause there's a lot of them actually. (Nodding head)- There's, you know, the way you're describing is exactly how many of these camps operate. There are kinda off the road and people uh, you know, kinda often, I mean, Pakistan is beautiful in this part of the, that part of the World. It's like the, you know, mountains and then some. There's lots of different places for these things so tell me about this particular one. Zero me -in on??on uh when you get up there. Uh, how many people are there approXimately? How many people? And yeah, how many people are in this particular camp?- In the Camp? What can I say, sir, uh maybe uh 35, 40, 50 maybe. - 0k and some of them, I mean you can certainly, you?- you-nyou can observe where people are sleeping and or-- or?-or the different buildings, the makeup of the camp itself. Yeah maybe, maybe. So, you understand what I'm saying? Yeah, some of the people like you're trying to say maybe we're sleeping over there - yeah. working like that. .Right. When you're at the.camp, I.mean, understand you're at the camp for a period of time. You know you're there for a matter of months so you-- you know, the coming and going at the camp. (EH - nodding). You see these people coming and going and you interact with them because you're, you know, you're in essence, eyerybody's there in training Um hmm. 60:50:l G5: G5: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Now some people are there in training for different reasons, (nodding) um and that's how the camps work. I mean they--they--they take a look at you and?-and you know are, looking at you for maybe a purpose someday. Um (Nodding head). So, um during the course of the time that you're there, um how many people did you ob, I mean, usually these camps have, you know, hundreds of people coming and going so that I assume that this is, the way you're describing it, would sound similar in that regard. Is that, is that right? Like_hundreds_of_people. Yeah, yeah, you know. I didn't see that much like uh over 50 people I'll say. I didn't see over 50.people over there, Sir. At any one time? One time you know I see, I see like you know all together all the time I see like, you know, about.like 70. Um hmm," And one time I see like 35, Um hmm. People. Well people, some people have already been to camp. Um hmm. And some people, soe-so?-so they uh they will come up for, you know, a?-a class or, you know, what have you. Some kind of_course that may not last uh the full time. Now you were there for several months uh and d1d--Qld; they, the people that you took the bus ride from did they stay there the whole time with you? Uh, who?s driving the bus? Yeah. . No. The bus guy,.. No, not the driver but the, now you--you went, when 10 60:50:15 HH: GS: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 you're going out the road with the-?with the- flashlight. Um hmm." You were coming out. I went Out with a flashlight, but other guy was a flashlight, (UI) eh uh what's it called, following him. Ok.? We were following him and the guy we were following him uh he was the guy like over there. From the camp. ,He was staying over there, then. 0k, so he-?he came and met yOu and took you up to the camp? Yeah (yawning). I didn't ask, I didn't talk with no - one or nothing like that. Did??did the other people in the camp, did they um uh or did the other people at your, (UI), you said we followed him. We followed the guy with the flashlight. Did they stay there the whole time you stayed there? Uh, I mean like a, what do-you mean they stayed there for like five months like they're there five months. 'Yes,'right. came before them. I ran away then. '0k. you go, oh you ran away after five months? No not five months. Three, about maybe three months. Ok. So, in-other words, they stayed for, was it supposed to be a five-month camp? I didn't know was a five month camp or one- year camp or anything like that. I didn't ask I was just put on, and you know, what's it called this uh," what's it called uh getting trained you know. 0k. Um, and--and one of the things and too, I mean, uh I appreciate you being candid here in--in that regard so but don't um, you know don't, you know, just be totally honest. (HH nodding) I mean, so, I mean, the 11 60 :50:15 :00:17 I Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 way these things work um you knowfour?month class I mean we need_to know that. That's the most helpful, it gives us the most information about things that we need to be aware of so don't uh um, you know if it was four, five months, five months is fine, (HH nodding) if that's how long you were -there. Um, so you're in the camp and and certainly everybody in Pakistan knows different groups. Um, you know, Harakat ul Mujahideen, Harakat ul Ansar (HH nodding), all these different groups are~?are well known (HH nodding) to different people there so tell me about this camp and who, what are, what are the parties- that are, . who who are associated with this camp. yWho-?who owns this camp? Right. Uh. There was no names about no groups or no nothing over there like he who owns this camp, this group owns a camp, they don't care which group you came from or like you know which group you're gonna go with. Their job is to train. They just train. That's it. Training just Jihadi training basically? That's it. Ok so it's Jihadi training for, um well I mean, some . groups don't get along, right? (HH nodding) So, I mean, you say that uh that it's not um nobody cares about the group but I meanmit's not a Shiite camp. It's not a Shiite (UI). (HH shakes head side to side) So I know that, right? I mean cause they they wouldn't get along with, you know, Sipah 1 Sahaba would not send people to a Shiite camp. (HH shakes head side to side) Correct, so tell me about, I mean people know whether it's you know JUI or what have you I mean the different parties that are affiliated with certain camps so what. 12 60 :50:15 GS: GS: HH :Dl:28 Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Or~-or--uh or or what have you, would?-would--would would um have certain people at certain camps. So I gueSs what I'm, what I'm-trying Uh, you know the SSP thing, you know, uh you know one time when I was going from-somewhere and I see these guys like talking like about SSP like this group is like this, this group is like that. Right. Ahh you know,'I don't believe in that you know? And JUI, you know, I--I don't think so they have a camp, (UI) like.a politics group right now. I'll say that. Right,-right. If you know.that. Yeah I know that. Politics group Right. Yeah, that?s what I know about these two groups. Well the camp, uh who-~who was, tell me about who is at the camp, were they mostly Pakistanis or? Yeah, they were mostly Pakistanis uh, a lot of them were Pakistani. - . .Who-?who else was at the camp? That's it (UI) Pakistani. I didn't see no different people from different countries. Afghanis or? No, no. . What kind, what language was spoken at the camp? Uh they speak in Urdu. Is it all Urdu? Yeah. 13_ 60:50:15 GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 No Pashto? 'Little bit, you know. Like, I'm just saying, if me and you were over there sir like, Right. . you know, and this guy is like, you know, saying something to me in Urdu. Uh, and if I know how to speak gashto I'll tell you like Pashto (UI). Um hmm. Like that, you know like, I'll say-like three, four people speaking Pashto maybe. Um hmm. But the primary language was spoken-was Urdu? Urdu, yeah. 0k. Um, so you're, one of the, one of the things that uh, a_lot of what you're saying makes.sense, one of the things that doesn't make sense that it is--is~-is, um you know, the affiliation of the camp. Um, the name? Yeah, the name of the camp. And you-? now you wrote down the name in Urdu. (referring to piece of paper) -This is the place, I'm saying this is the city where the camp is Alright, alright. This is the camp. This is the city, I don't know the the camp name but, you know, I know this place Right. The where the, this is the city name, Balakot. They? call it Balakot. It's.in NWFP NWFP. And-?and how far away is Balakot from uh from the From the camp? Uh, the camp is in the city. 'It's actually in the ok? (HH nodding) 14 .28. 60:50:15 HH: GS: HH: 17:03:16 I GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: Interview of Hamid Hayat. 6/4-5/05' Yeah. So on the (UI). All right. _In the section of the _city. I don't remember sir it's like it's maybe like a half an hour, an hour away, I can say maybe-hour away. 0k. 0k. ?And um, uh, and you-?you, uh when did you go back to Pakistan? Uh where my family lives? Yes. 2003. So 2003. So this is, how many months after you were in Pakistan did you go to the camp? Sin, seven months. So six to seven months after. When in 2003 did you go to camp, do you remember? 2003, I don't remember the date nor the month, I don't. Ok. So approximately in the summer time, the spring time. . . -- It's kinda uh what's it called cold. 'It's cold, when, here or there? Over th?re sir. When you got there so it was, was it winter ending or beginning do you recall. I think so it's the beginning. -.All right. So?-so, in 2003, you go to 2003 you're in Pakistan. And about 7 or 8 months after you get there you go to camp_and you're in camp for-?for 3 to 4 months? (HH nodding) Yeah. Is that Something like that. 15 --60:50:15 GS: HH: GS: HH: -GS: HS: HH: GS: . GS: GS: HH: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Qk. I thought you guys had information like that, about Ok, we, we have. In, in. Most of the uh, you know for my country I'll do anything you know sir, cause you know these guys are hurting our country a lot. Um hmm. Well I appreciate that (HH shaking head side to side) and it's important uh. . Cause you know everything that was received sir, you know our troops are working there very hard you know making peace in the whole world. Uh huh. - Why they making peace, they're making peace for us s0' we can live together, all of-us. Yeah, and what do they do at these_camps that, what. they're-doing-is teaching people how to kill American troops. Of course. Right, that's what the camps are all about. lThey do that sir. Yeah, exactly and. There?s a movie out in Pakistan Sir, huh it was against like uh uh Americans. - Yeah. So, you know, me and my cousin he was a little one, so you know he said I'm going to go rent cartoons (UI) I Want to rent cartoons I believe. I say what kind of movie is this. They say this is.a fighting mov1e.' was thinking this kind like, you know, uh, what's it called, the Pakistani movie (UI) Uh They make a uh culture movie, Uh hm Sir so I went back to 'em'and I said where you get this 16 60:50:15 GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: -GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: HH: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 movie from. He said why. I said you know what, you can get big trouble in this, you want me to call the cops on you, he said why. I said see put it on and when he put it on he said it's like a Jihadi movie or something like that. - Well I mean, It had a different.label on it Sir a different label of . movie, he hasn't so he said, I didn't know about that. He said that to me that I didn't know about this (UI). - Um tell me about the, let's go back to the camp here for a second. Um when you were at the camp uh would would people come visit it regularly, and and or would new students show up on a daily basis or, or tell me about it you know a day and, People doesn't come daily. Ok. So you'd be there for a couple of days and and? just train? 'Uh huh. And then and then maybe a couple days later new students may come. no they don't come after a couple of days sir they_come after like a couple of weeks. . Ok. So you start, They got-a lot of people over there. Right. So you, so after a couple.of weeks maybe a new group of students will come in? -Uh.hum. And then start a different aspect (HH nodding) of of training um and I, I think I asked this but but uh um uh I assume that if it's like most of the camps you have weapons training and you have uh explosives training. Over there in the camp? In they do karate or? Um I didn't see no karate over that's the thing you know I was thinking I was going to tell you about.. I didn't see no karate over there. Sir I didn't see no 17 60:50:15 GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: HH: GS: GS: GS: GS: 17:07:36_ ?long.ago you were there. Interview of Hamid Hayat. 6/4-5/05 karate. You saw do they, do they, did you run like run or jog or work out? 'Jogging? Yea, 'Like running, I told you sir, jogging you know. They were looking at my body they knew it's not that tough or anything like you know to do that any big thing like that so. So, um and then different kinds of weapons training usually they have uh variety of different kinds of weapons. - . Yea.' I got to do pistol that's it. So you did pistol training. I did (continues to gesture as if holding a piStol) and I'm not good that either, you know when I do it?w no. you're not doing well, you have to do this, do that, (UI). Ok so this um alright. Um, now um, when you were at um tell, so so you're um you you left there then about how long ago was it that you were at the camp? . First time or second time? Uh most recently. Wh-when did you-were you?re and let me uh I mean this information is helpful to us because it gives us an idea of where the camp is and maybe how Clearly it How long I was there? Yes. .In the camp? -Iea how long wh-when you left the camp after about four months you said. Uh maybe like three and a half months something like that. . . ?Ok. 18 60:50:15 HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: RH: .38: HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Um hmm. And uh and then you and then you went back to Pindi? Uh I went back to my village. To Beh Behboodi. Behboodi, now and then you and then you came here. Yes. I 0k. 'Uh well I didn't come directly here. 0k. We were in like you know uh all over like maybe in my village for like 5 or 6 months Ok. so I'm just trying to get a time frame (HH nodding) of when you were in the camp. Uh So you've been here just-for a couple days, um or about a week or so. how long have you been here? I came in like uh, about a week, make it like a week yea. Ok. So you're here for a_week, you're back in Behboodi for about five or six months, Yea. And then before that you're in the camp_for about three and a half to four months? . (Acknowledges by.moving head). 0k. .Before_my wedding you know maybe like uh I was in my camp I was in the camp before my wedding. -That's a?good date.' So you got married when? 19 tom-1060:50:15 17:08:49 HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: HS: HH: GS: HH: .GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat. 6/4-5/05 And when I got married in ah, what's it called March. 0k. 30th I think so. fIim not sure but I don't remember. March. In the future it'll be important to remember those dates. For our Anniversary? (Laughs) (Ullvanniversary. _Don't have don't practice that. Um, Ok, so you got 'married in March. . Uh, huh. Um, uh, you said March 30th? You Yeah.l Approx, approximately? I think so. And how long um, um, how long had_you been home from camp before you got married? Ah. how leng I was been home when I came back from the camp? . Yes.- .Um, four months, I would say four or five months. About four or five months. So then it's, then so, you would be back up on our calendar then so, about Nevember or so, maybe is when you left camp? Because that's about four months. - Yeah.' And you'know when I came back when my mom was sick and you know she got Hepatitis and you know she, she was telling me, you know son I need you to get married. I need someone like you know help me out in the house like you know, someone to like cook for me. Uhfhuh. 20 60:50:15 HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: GS: GS: IGS: 17:10:46 GS: GS: GS: Interview bf Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Like that so I said Ok. So when you came back from camp you helped your mom for about four or five months? Yeah. I was not married at that time, I was helping her first you know getting all the grocery and everything. 0k. Like that. 0k. And so you-were in camp then approximately say, now ah, ah, I'm just sayin' approximately in November is when you left. Does that sound right? 'Sounds right (yawns) I don't remember sir right now. 0k. 'Cause I'm kind of tired right now. I couldn't even barely fix up my time table for sleeping, when I came back. . Oh you're at your jetlaged still. (UI) Probably, a little bit, so that's, 0k. All right. So you're there um, for, for about ah, as best you can recall for you know, three and a half, to four months before November. Yeah. All right. ,Um, and we got the, the, and it's in the Northwest Frontier, Frontier Province. And give me the name of that town again? Balakot Spell. 'Balakot? Yeah. . And how big is the town, itself? didn't see the town sir. ka. 21 26 27 28 60:50:15 HH: Gs! HH: GS: HH: GS: 17:11:00 HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Haynt, 6/455/05 (UI) Cause this was, but is this a couple miles outside Balakot? The training camp? 'Yes. It's in there sir. It?s in the city It's in the larger area of Balakot? It's in the city yeah 0k. But you didn't get out to the city at all? No we can't. Right. 0k. Um, they keep you there I assume right? Yeah. 0k. Um, one of your other um, I wanna come back to some of these areas in a minute, andtell you that uh, what's the most helpful for us are specifics. So that the more specific and, and, let, let me decide or let um, let my partner decide whether something's important or not. (HH nodding) Um, you, you just tell us what you remember. Because you may be sitting there thinking well that little aspect_ of, of what I remember isn't important. (HH nodding)_ But it might-be because it may, it may be helpful to us. And it may, ah, you know we know what we know and we see a lot of things. So um, you?know as, as, as it's probably been.explained to you we have, you know, you know satellite imagery and all sorts of other things that give us an idea of things that are going on in certain places. But um, any additional information you can provide is, it certainly helps us (HH nodding) 'and we appreciate you doing that.? I will, fill try my best.- Um, one of the things that we do know also are that there?are other people in this area that have attended camp. . . Uh, huh. We're aware of that having happened and um, and there's 22 "'60:50:15 GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: HS: GS: 'you think (UI), what can I say man. Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 a whole big you know um, so why don't we just talk about that. Have, have you talked about that at all? Yeah, but I don't know the people that's the thing. Who, who, who do you know that may, that may have, may have attended camp? Like ah, ah, Imam from Masjid, Shabbir. Gk. Imam from, from the Lodi_Masjid? Lodi. Ok. I heard about from people like, you know he went to train a long time ago before, a long time ago. From people I heard. And that's Shabbir the Imam with the Lodi Masjid? Yes. Um, he, he, he ah, tell me about that. What do you mean? Obviously you had a conversation about that so just tell me, tell me the c0nversation.v You mean like where did I see him or? know about that?' him going to camp, No, what do you- something about .Somebody told you when I didn't left.for America in 2003, I was here. It was here, but_you know, someone told me and I said oh. Maybe he did gone to ah, thing you know the training camp. And he said you know what ah, do- I don't know. Oh, it was here Say that again. I-said what can I say to that guy. I don't know if he went to the training camp or not,'you know. And one of the things wh, wh, wh, I know how it works (HH'nodding) and I.know.that the conversations don't just go like that. - - - Uh, huh. Because you're a guy who's already been to camp and you'd probably been to.camps so I didn't even ask you about that before you even came here. 23' Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Uh, huh. .So you probably had some, is that correct? Yeah. Yes, that is correct.~ So you'd already been to camp. So those kind of conversations um, don't always happen like that. The way that it would go is you and Shabbir would have had a conversation a little bit about camp.- - No. I don't have no conversation with him about the camp, with Shabbir, with Shabbi: Where, well you would've had had a conversation. Somebody doesn't just say that they must have had a conversation with Shabbir-about camp. I didn?t'have a Somebody else must have had a Somebody else maybe else have had because that's the way I found out. You know like people talking about the camp. - Uh, huh. They're going to camp. He told someone that you know, he went to the camp. That's the way I found out. You told, you told someone you went or somebody ?Someone told me that. told somebody (HH nodding) he went to camp? Yeah. I What, what else did he say about that? That's I You know, I mean this is, you know, for, for, let's be honest. (EH nodding) I mean the reality is that um, going to camp is an important part of, it's been an important part of your life. (HH nodding) Right? I mean you spent time there and you had to go. I mean it's not something that is taken It's an important thing that happens. (HH nodding) So It is for him too. I mean, it's been an important part of his 24 . 10 ll 12 60:50:15 HH: GS: GS: G3: :15:32 Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 life I'm sure. So um, I mean, so, you know, please you know help us here and so you know make sense out the story. It doesn't make sense that you would have had a very short conversation like that. It would be something, you would At that time I was ah, you know, coming back from training. I was going home, it was dinner time. So you know, I didn't pay attention that much to that guy but that's what I say to him. That was like conversatibn already like you know, I say to you guys. Who told you this? Ah, it was ah, some guy what's it called from Lodi. What's his name? I don't even remember his name 'cause I didn?t met him when I came back right now.. And, you know I got ah, . what's it called ah, stuff, you know I brought some ah, what's it called, some sweets from Pakistan. Uh,'huh. So he's gonna come so you know, remember him and find out his face and everything you know, his name and everything. I remember his name and that. So.you, so um, so you, you're aware that Shabbir has gone to camp? Yes. 0k. Um, and, and, are you aware of what camp he's gone? - not (UI) that. 0k. Does he have an affiliation with any or the groups, or? Affiliation (UI) Is he, is he, is he, what groups does he, or, or a parties is he umm Connected to? Yes. 25 60:50:15 HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: Hmight think I, ?No. Interview of Hamid Hayat. 6/4-5/05 Connected to He's I think so. Ok. Now I wanna tell you something because um, I know um, you know a little bit more about that then you I do. 'Uh, huh. I know about um, Sipah i Sahaba. Uh, huh. And JUI and, and all that so. So um, and I know how it works and I know you know about those groups (HH nodding) more than you're probably comfortable talking about. 'Cause I know, you know what I know, I know that when people come to the United States um, they're not supposed to talk about these groups. Uh, huh. Right? Uh, huh.- And that's just, that's the rule correct? -Um, because the groups are important in Pakistan. Ah, these are not the groups so Well it's, I mean it's not a law but You think about the;.. it's like a rule for the, the group, for the cam, ah, for the group, for, itr it's, people are careful (HH shaking head side to side)what they say about the, -They don't care sir. I donht think that they care In the United States? (HH shaking head)? I I They don't care? People talk about it freely about SSP and ml 5. I Some of the people I'll say maybe they do sir. 26 19h HH: 20, 60:50:15 GS: HH: GS: GS: HH: GS: HH: G5: G8: HH: HS: GS: HS: GS: GS: about it. Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4?5/05 0k. Some of the people I say. All right. Well tell me about Shabbir's affiliation, or what groups or parties Shabbir belongs to? Tell me The only one I know is JUI and ah, I think so SSP, maybe. - Ok. I I'm not sure. Now how do you know that? Ah, because you know ah, people are over there in Pakistan you know, ah, he used to be Imam in Pakistan too. 'Where? In Islamabad. 0k. And you know, Over there you know, ah, people say that you know, ah, he used to-talk like about SSP and like that. Uh huh. Would he get people excited about Jihad and things like that? I assume that, that's how it works. I mean, Uh, I don't know about that. 'But I just heard that he talks about SSP and you know, and they all, you know at that time I didn't think that much about but right now I?m thinkin' it's coming to my mind now. Uh, huh. Maybe he's with 359talking with the Maybe-he is with SSP. Maybe.l - So you've heard um, Yeah, in Pakistan I heard that sir. About him. Is he famous in Pakistan? Ah, 0k. Not bad, you know, he's a_religious uh Imam over there 27 ?I 28' 60:50:15 GS: HH: GS: HH: I GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Uh, huh. But he's also an Imam going to camp. So' he's not, I.think so. When he was uh, not the Imam. 0k. Then before the Imam, before he became an Imam, I think so, he went to training. So he went to training. I assume he partic, where's he from. What's, what ah?. I think so. There's two KashmirsAzad?Jammu Kashmir. That's what we call it.. _Uh, huh. And'one's occupied Kashmir. We call it Azad Jammu Kashmir. He?s from Azad? JammurKashmir. Jammu, Jammu? (UI) 'Azad-Kashmir. "AzadnKashmir Yeah. So he's like ah, ah, Muzzafarabad area that, Yeah. From that in that side. from . 0k.l So he's from the Pakistani side of Kashmir. (HH nodding) -- Yeah. I Right,'right. And so he's from that area um, and he's, as far as you know he?s, he's. he's He's talking about that. 0k. 'Tell me-about that. Ah. you know, I heard a lot of other people say he talks about SSP. . Uh, huh. 28 11 21 22 23?- 24 '25: 26 27: 23 60:50:15 HH: 17:18:59 GS: HH: GS: HH: Interview of Hamid Hayat. 6/4-5/05 And you know, like that and I said, what do you mean he's talking about SSP. Like he talks about SSP on Fridays, like you know SSP is like this, like that. So even here he talks about SSP on Fridays. No, I don't think so. 'Cause yesterday it was Friday? Right. Not yesterday, Jumma. I went there and you know, it was only five minutes _left to Jumma. I left like one o'clock. Uh,.huh. So there?s one o'clock and two o'clock Alright. So, you know I didn't listen to the what's it calle the lecture he gave. I didn't listen to lecture. Ok. So you didn't. All right. Xou didn't go inside? I went inside the Mosque, but I got there it was late. 0k. - The prayer was almost over. 0k. All right. Um, so he's um, he's SSP from ah, Azad Kashmir and, and, how long has he been here? He came in 2004, 2002. Do you have an opportunity to talk to him a lot about? About this? Yes. Do you want me to talk to him? I mean can, have you had. I didn't have it, if you guys want to me I'll try 29 10 11 '12 13 14 15 60:50:15 GS: HH: GS: -HS: HH: HS: HH: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 to talk to him about all this stuff if it doesn't matter to you guys. Well see, we'll Well, we'll talk to you about that.. 0k. Specifically before we'd want you to do it. 0k. Um, um, tell me, so you're, the other thing, I mean, isn't, doesn't make sense and that's why it's important to make sense because you made sense about a lot of stuff (HH nodding) and so it makes, I mean, we, we it's important to be honest here. And I, I, I imagine that you've talked a lot about that before I came in here. And how important that is and that ah, that being partially honest is not helpful to you-especially. Being totally honest is the most, is, is, is extremely helpful. And so one of the things that um, ah, I want you to try and make sure you're honest about. And maybe even you're even a little bit tired. I'm not sure. But I want you to, to ah, to try to wake up for, 'for this and because I want you to hear what you're saying. Doesn't, isn't totally making sense and that is that um, that you haven't had any conversations with Shabbir about SSP or any parties (HH shaking head) or ah, or any Jihad camps No. That doesn't make sense. I didn't, um, Yeah. 0k. I mean it, it, it, I mean it it, I need to let you know, it doesn't make sense to me that you Oh, mean it it does make sense. It does not make sense. 0h, 0k, 0k. Because, because of, (HH yawning) of you know,-camps. you know Jihadi training camps have been an important part of where you've been recently and they sound-like they've been an important part of where he's been. I 30 :bbJM mm 10 1.1 12' 13 14 _15 164 ?ll?60:50:15 17:21:39' GS: G3: G5: HH: CS: GS: GS: GS: GS: Gs. GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 mean he, he's affiliated with SSP. said he's from Islamabad, which is Pindi is right there. Uh, huh. He's from ah, you Rawal you know, And so, you guys naturally would have had some Conversations about that. Does that make sense? About Pindi? Yea about Pindixor abOut SSP or before he came here. about what he did Over here or over there? Over here, or or over there, do, have you seen? -I.didn't see him over there. Have you ever seen him over there? No I didn't see him over there. 'Ok. And over here (UI) saying that uh you know we didn't have a conversation between or anything we have a politics you know some time read the newspaper on Internet, . Uh _Pakistan newspaper Uh about JUI about never about SSP. So you had a conversation about JUI with him you say? fUh JUI means Jamiat (UI) Ulema Jamiat Ulema Islam Right. Yea. We did have, like you know a conversatibn like. that. 0k tell me about that. 'The conversation was like this, it's like, uh, uh 31 60:50:15 GS: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: GS: GS: HH: GS: GS: '80, Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 what?s it called, uh, two people in the group and, you know, it was like that what you call politics, Um hum. Talk and they were fighting with you know. They were fighting he said why don't you give me uh the uh was like you got more intelligence than him, the group why not you know, you come to my seat like, you be like my what's it called,-voice, a voice, and I'll be your I'll be the president like the group. You know, we were just discussing on that,-and like, you By like pretending you were Fazlur Rehman is that what you pre Yeah, I'm talking about him sir, 0k Him and Sami ul Haq Right, right I'm talking about those two Sure. I I They they don't talk with each other pretty good, So they were fighting so we're like you know you are talking about the problem between Sami ul Haq' - yea and Fazlur Rehman Yeah, Samu U1 Haq and that you know, that's what.we were talking about. 0k, and well, tell me about the conversations, and now you know we're getting somewhere so tell me about that Ah, the Yeah. ..between, ah, the Yeah. Tell me about what, what you and_Shabbir talked about. . 32 60:50:They still have, working, Interview of'Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 You know we talked about this like and he was asking me, ah, when this the conversation started, he said that who do you think should be the president. I said, you know, what can I say. I_said, you know what, ah, why don?t we put, ah, ah, this guy in that seat and this guy over here but I don't think so they won't be happy. If one is on this seat the other one is on that. seat, they should be happy, they still have a job. they're getting money to go? to like that. And that was the conversation and I say to him Ok. - Alright. 0k. Umm, so you_know Sami ul Haq, yer, who he is and Yeah, I've seen him alot on the newspaper over there and TV, they show there, over here I didn't see him that much Um-hum I Over there I seen him alot in the newspaper. - Um-hmm.. 0k. Ah, well, tell me, ah, ah, yawning) who, who came to visit the camp, who, what important people came to visit the camp? None of them guys came that's like real rare. Yeah, it is rare? (HH shaking head) None of the people came over there, maybe because it is so cold. Maybe that's why nobody come Well, the camps are a little harder to have, ah, ah, I mean, today. I mean, they used to be a.lot, many more . . Uh?hmm. before'two?thousand and one. I think so this camp still maybe over there. I'm not sure maybe, maybe I, I don't think so. Let me see, I'm not sure. - Why do you say that? Because I have a feeling sir that you know, ah, this ?camp is like in a place like, it's like a jungle or something like that. Right. 33 60 :50:15 HH: IGS: :25:15 Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Maybe there's 0k, so-this isn't a safe place to have a camp.- Uh-hmm. . So, in other words, its, you have a camp there because nobody can get there, except by-walking? Uh-hmm. Is that right? Uh?hmm. Um, and then, it's, it's, it's safe because, (HH yawning) ah, ah, nobody knows where it is.. Is that, is that right? feah (yawn).- Could you find your way back there? No way sir; It is very hard to ?ind my way back. Why is that? I -Cause it is kind of jungle you know, you don't know .where you're gonna, where your-going, coming in or coming out, from like that. 'So when-you get to the camp, are there trees all around it? -Yes, it's kinda like that. 0k. And. umm, and so you didn't see anybody else (HH shaking head) outside the camp for the four months you were there? .. - Unh?uh. (Moving head side to side). 0k. What, what other people here locally, umm, uh, have talked about going to camp. You mentioned Shabbir. Now Shabbir, umm, tell me about So . Shabbir went to camp, who knows, who else knows he went to camp? Like I was telling you, right now the guy I brought some stuff from what's it called Pakistan,.some sweets 34 10 '11 12 13 14 15 60:50:15 GS: HS: GS: HS: HH: HS: HS: HH: HS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Right I forgot his name, you know, and, you know I know him pretty good, because you know when I came when I was here.before I was leaving to Pakistan. I didn't met him that much Um-hmm. What's he do for a living? He, him? . Yeah, here. What does that guy do for a living here? I think so umm, he works in, ah, ah, what's it called like, welding company you know? Hmm. welding like making like you know car parts I think so -IUh-huh, So he works at a welding company, this guy? Now, when he's telling-you this, I mean, it's like, you know, that's, ah, that's an interesting thing he's trying to. tell you. -He was trying, trying to keep your interest in what Shabbir has done, so tell me, eh, eh, tell me how this conversation took place? How this Yeah, how, what, what, did he just tell you, I think ir when to camp, (HH yawning) or how did he tell you this? He said that I heard that, I heard from someone, (yawn) excuse me, when he went to A He heard (HH nodding) from someone that he went to camp. Uh-huh. 0k. Umm, who, who else, ah, whose, who-else's, so, ah. tell me, so what is Shappir is, is the Imam, he's been the Imam for a period of time here. Uh?huh. What's, what, ah, is he gonna, is he gonna stay here? Do you talk to him sometimes? 35 Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Yeah, I think he got a green card new. I think Think he's got a green card? Is he going to stay here? Does he want to go back to Pakistan? I have no idea. I never asked him about those questions. What is he doing here? Uh, he is the Imam, that's So is that his purpose is to be the Imam in Lodi? Yeah. vDoes he, ah, who,_who did he-find this place? How did he get here? I think so some guy told them that you know he's a good Imam. I think so. I?m not sure maybe the, the community people, . So the community brought him here? Maybe, I think it was like this, all the community people sit down together and, you know, they talk about we need a new Imam, like that, and they contact Pakistan maybe someone over there they know. And maybe they gave them, they gave them like names and - everything and then maybe they gave them like he's educated, he's not educated, he's good, he's not that good like that.. . - . Well, somebody has to know him here though first, so does he have somebody here, that, that, ah, you know, the, the mosques sponsored him. Did they have, who here, um, said, hey, this guy's a good Imam? Who, you .know, let's get . to bring Shabbir over here? Yes. It's ah, ah, what's it call, Maulana Adil. Maulana Adil Yes who's, who's that? 36 21360:50:15 HH: GS: HH: GS: 17:28:24 GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: HS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Uh he's making the biggest Islamic Center in Lodi, Farooqia Islamic Center. So he's from the Farooqia Islamic Center? Uh-huh. Tell me about him? Ah, I don't know much about this guy sir, he's like you know just working on the, ah, what's it called, the Islamic Center, making that, that's what he's doing right now. 0k, now, now, is it, umm, who knows that youfve been to camp? (UI) Your father knows._ Yeah. Um, who else knows that you've been to camp? Ah, in my relatives. Yeah. And my father knows, and my parents know, and my uncle back in Pakistan. What's your uncle's name? was Your uncle?s name is Anas, Yeah. Anas? And hefs the one who has been to camp himself? -Yeah.- Has he been to the'same camp you went to? I don't know about that. He went way before me sir. Way, way before'me. Like, I think so like, four or 'five years before me. 37 10 ll 12 13 60:50:15 HS: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: IIHH: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Uh-huh. 0k, Was he living also in, ah, Pindi, or is he in, in, ah, Behboodi? Ah, I think so that he should be in pindi.? Is that where he lives? I think so. Ok, so, and you were, so here then, um, well you just got back, so, I imagine you haven't had time to meet with a whole lot that I didn?t, I was resting that's the thing I just went to work for two days only. Four it starts. 0k. And you know, it's just a part-time job. You know only ,when I went over there they say you have five days left; It's only five days to work. I said I don't care.if it's need some pocket money. Ok. I say you know buy some clothes and everything like thatr Right . So, you 0k. .Umm. So, ah, let me back up to one of the questions I just asked you, so Maulana Shabbir, right, (HH nodding) Imam Shabbir went to camp. Imam Shabbir was brought here by Maulana Adil. . Uh-huh. (HH nodding) from the Farooqia Islamic Center. Is he, ah, so he-must know a Shabb' 7 Is that right? . I think so that's ah Maulana_3dil, you know maybe he search for it, something like that. Does he know him from back in Pakistan then? I have no idea about this question. I think so he's searched like, you know, called-like, you're in .Pakistan, I'm calling, hey, I need an Imam, could you 38 60:50:15 GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: Gs: (Pause) GS: HS: HS: HS: HS: HS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 search for me So, you don't know for-sure Uh no But you know,.. I could find out about this if you gUys want me But, but you know they know each other? Yeah, right now they know each other. 0k, from but he, he is the one who brought him here Uh-huh. basically, 0k. Oh, I, one of the things, we, we want to talk about the first camp you went Uhahuh. but, ah, ah, we, we talked about the camp.- You 'talked about the, the weapons training, just the pistol, (HH nodding) uh, that you were involved in, and we asked you again about, about observing, some of the things that, that you observed there. Did, you, you talked before about hearing explosives. (HH nodding) How many times did you see explosives training? . Ah, I didn't see that much. I see that a couple of people (UI) kinda like rocks or something like Uh9huh.' I (U1) rocks (UI) exploding or something like that. It would be like far away. 0k. What, what percentage of the people at the camp the most recent time you went there, spoke English? . They speak English? I What percentage of peOple spoke English? Ah, I didn't see no one speak English over there they 39 4 m? .1060:50:15 HS: HH: HS: HH: HHS: HS: HS: GS: GS: HS: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid 'were About how many people do you know Spoke English? Ah, not that much that much sir. Not that much, but if it's not that much I'd say, uh, maybe one one or two person. -A lot of them are talking Pashto and Urdu. The one or two people that you met that spoke No, I didn't met them, I saw them, I seen them there talking in English. .Ok, were they from the United States? - No, their English was not like the united States. There English is like poor Pakistani Uh?huh. Poor Pakistani. Why would it makes no sense that they would be speaking English if they speak Urdu. I have no idea,_maybe they were talk some secrets. In English? I Ah, maybe they talk sOme secrets.in English What did you overhear I I uh they were saying how are you, fine sir, how are you doing? Like that, and, you know, and he's telling you go over there and pick up that, and'do that, and like that. That's what I.heard. I was not standing there much, that long, I was thinking-maybe they gonna ?ind out, you know, I speak English or anything like that, I was kinda scared. well, you heard them talking secrets.in English. Ah yes, they were talking like this. Like, you know, how are you, fine. 'You go over to pick up this or pick up Yeah, 40 60:50:15 GS: HH: HS: HS: HS: HS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 What, what are they going to pick up? I don't know, it was like, you know, pointing like that way or this way, like that. Just go over there something like that How did you leave the camp? First time? -The most recent time? First time? The last time? Last time, same thing, I ran away. You know, it's a pretty remote location. Where did you run away to. You didn't even know where yOu were. Ah, you know, there was a bus going out, over there. had some money with me, I had some money; So I told the bus driver you know I said I'm gonna go like this place and I say can I get a bus from there for like Behboodi, and he said, yes, you can. I said can you like hide me or something like that in ahh in a bus. He said yes I can there was a bus coming in there yea. They brought some blankets, there Was only like blankets over there I mean what?s it called, ah, in the bus, so he said I can take you.. So I went like that. (pause) I pay him like I think so it was like, ah, one thousand Pakistan. 17:33:51 GS: HH: GS: Now you, yOu went to camp, from what I understand, you went, this was the second time, it's the second time, (UI) three or four times This, ah, this was the second So you've been, this is the second time you've been to the same camp. It was, it was.almost the same camp I'll say, I'm not sure cause you know it was kinda like you know making me like, confusing that, looks to me like uh first camp again. But everything was changing, I said no it's not, then I said oh forget about it, I don't think so, it was the first camp was like that, the first camp like 41 ?60:50:15 GS: HH: HS: HS: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: 17:35:30 GS: HH: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/0-5 So, a typical day at the camp, ah, training, ah, and this is good, you know, good for us, because, we, we have pictures of this kind of stuff. We have, you know, other people that tell us certain (UI) what weapons I have question sir, could you guys show me the picture, maybe I Can you know (UI) maybe we might do that later, (HH nodding) but, for now it's best that we your memory as much as possible. Sure. So, for instance, ah,-you, you know, take us to weapons training. A day with, on the pistol range. I how they gave us a pistol, hold it, shoot it, make sure you like this pull it back like that, like this, like that. And you know (HH holds imaginary pistol) (UI) learn how to load it. Well, just put it like this. (HH gesticulating as if loading) Right. Put it in shoot it like that. You know, and they told me that you're not so good at that, So that's why you're there though, your, they're teaching people, many people are Yeah. experience I said, Ok, I'm not that good, and they said, you know keep_on doing it you were Ok you know they didn't pay attention they got alot of people like-that. So they skinny body people, I don't know why. They don?t like those guys over there. 42 60:50:15 GS: HH: G3: G5: HH: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 (Laughs) Now, now are you on, on, um, when you're firing the gun, is it, are you standing next to, how many other people are firing guns at the same time? Not at the same time though. One guy's gonna shoot, other guys gonna shoot after me. - So you stand in line and come up and, and take-some shots? (UI) (UI) something yea And then you get back in t?e'back of the line, and kind of keep going through, (nodding) uh huh basically you're learning how to fire a pistol. Exactly (rubbing his face) uh huh 0k. And then, um, at the same time, and that?s, ah, ah, you know, it's a process, ah, you want to learn how to shoot good, correct? And what were you shooting at when you were firing the pistol. I_think they had, they had a board over there, it's kinda some kind of board. - Target board? 'Yeah. It was like'you know, like you throw that things in there (motioning as though throwing darts) Darts? Alright, so its got, like ah, you know, you try to hit (UI) (UI) the center. Yes. ..as close to the center as you can. Uh?huh. So, you?re trying to hit, you know, we, you-know, the center mass of this target board with, with, ah, pistol, um, and you take, um, how, how many What kind of Do you remember what kind of gun it 43 "[.1425Fl 27 28 60 HH. GS: GS: 1.7 :36:32 -GS: GS: GS: HH: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 No, it was a black one. I, I can remember the color, but I don't remember what the name was or anything like that. So you take how many shots? I think so I took like, ah, three or four shots. Three or four shots? Do you.reload, ah, I mean, cause normal, I didn?t: know how to reload it, I didn't know (UI) I mean, I'm sure in four, three, four months,'three and a half, four months-they teach you how to reload. The thing is, ah, they put like, ah, bullets in there for us up there. Uh-huh. Not in the thing, up Uh, one at a time? One at a time, yeah._ Like that. 0k. And this, this, this particular and then, ah So that's one day I assume? (HH nodding) That's one day in four months. So tell me about some . other days. I-mean other types of training that take place in this four month period. Oh: running, jogging, and, ah, what's it, called, you . know some of the day you know, some of the guys are sick so we uh cooking and I don't know how to cook, so, you know, I just, ah, you know, washed the vegetables, like onions, and everything like that, That's most of day. There?s prayer a lot. Yeah, you can pray anytime. There's no, And then there's, ah, there's, You can play over there, playing around like, uh you -.know sports, any kind of sports you want or you can play ah what's it called, ah, football. _Soccer, I mean soccer. 44 10 11 12 '13' 14 15 18 60:50:HH: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 So, could, people are doing this during the, and then there's, So when you go to a class and theyfre teaching you, umm, you know, today we're gonna learn how to shoot a gun, for'instance. Umm, do they, did they start out in a classroom, do they have classrooms? No, there's really no Classrooms. You all sit down outside? Outside. And then they, they, somebody would show the gun and this is what we're gonna do, and Yes. Sit down, I'll tell you, that's it- So tell me how it goes. We sit down outside, and you know, like this is the gun you guy's gonna like that, like this. 0k, and then you, and then they say, and then you're shooting.' How many people, you know, the, you -obviously you remember a Ah, I was, ah, I think so twenty people. Twenty Between fifteen to twenty. doing the pistol training. Sitting down.over there, yes.. Ok. Now tell me about rifle training. Oh, rifle training is very hard sir, you know, they make me stand over there in I say I barely could pick it up it's very'heavy, you know, I'm skinny you know Was it a big so, tell me what kind of rifle it is, do you remember? It was a shotgun,'I think sir There are different kinds, there's Kalishnikovs,l there's shotgun Um, shotgun, you know, like the pictures of you Uh-huh. 45 50:50:15_ l7;38:40 HH: GS: HH: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 seen my pictures over_here. Uhehuh. Did you see my pictures? No, I, I'm just looking. Oh. and that way this was a black one, it was a black one 0k. like that . . . It was very powerful, when I shOt it, it went like that (gestures as if shooting a shotgun) you know the first time they say you can't shoot that again,_because you don't have that much power. And, you know, and I was thanking god that, you know, I don't want to do that again. And the pistol too, I'm not that experienced or anything like that. 0k. And then what about Kalishnikov training. No, I never did that. I Ah, I mean they have that there, I assume? They do have it over there. You can hear it, it sounds dit, dit, dit, dit, dit. Yeahu Yeah.?- I can hear that but I never did that. So you saw they have Kalishnikov training and then they have ah I mean they they have a explos1ves training. . Explosives training, but I never seen like you know someone maybe like putting eXplosive over here feeling like they gonna do it like that or like (UI) I never like seen that but I heard a lot-of noises of - explosions. - - You heard a lot of explosions. (HH nodding) Tell me about that. -What would be-happening, during the day, during the night, all the time 46 ~10:50:15 HH: GS: :39z37 HH: G8: G8: HH: GS: IIHH: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Ah, during the day sir, during the day a lotf 0k. And who was involved in that? Those people are. And then ya know they would be teaching them about explosive you saw a group of people learning about explosives. they're teaching, it feels like um what's it called uh, what's it called uh blocks or something like that. Blocks. It's like a blocks or something I'll say like that. A huh. They?re taking And.then what would they do? They take it far away (UI) and you know if um, if the field is over here I think so they go like way. way back down over there like that way way down over here . boom . . Did they, would they, were they teaching_them how to place explosives, like there different aspects of explosiver training? They put-it like that over there sir Sometimes if ya know hear how to hide it in the ground. Yeah, yeah but they wouldn't show me how hiding it or anything like that cause you know, one day I'm, you know, a you know, they came over there, they take a you know a um a, what's it called, a a um explosion like you know those guys, you know, they talking with each I'other two guys, two guys that you know talk about explosion like you know what do you think about explosion is it necessary putting in.there. makes downward sloping-motion with right hand) like they're talking to each other like.that and um the other guy said nah I don't think so. ?And after that I said OK that's why because he makes some noiSe. And that's what I_was thinking. .Because I was thinking why did it make some noise. Now I find out because they said it's not necessary to put it in so I said OK that's why it. 47 .17. 18 19 60 17 :50:15 GS: HS: HS: HS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 make noise. in Did they have any uh, training involving any other weapons like knives, No, I didn't see no knives, they didn't give me any knife, even in the kitchen where we, you know, clean up those, they didn't give me knife sir they, you know, it's like a what's it called, a thing. Ah, I think so, it's a, a big blade a big one not even for I finish shaving. Something else that, you know, I don't think that they give you knives over they, you know, when I went over there I didn't see no knives in the kitchen or anywhere (UI). At what point, were they giving assignments out? At what point were they telling people where they would go to be Jihad fighters? Ah, they didn't say nothing about (UI). They said that um you guys, like I tell you before get trained, buh, you know, they don't tell you like we're going to send -you to this country or that country like that or something like that. How many people discussed or talked about being . Murders? Ah, how many people.talked about being suicide bombers? Ah, none of them were like suicide bombers over there? where I was seeing like, you know. Um, I know get back to it, but why don't you talk- again about the first time you went to camp. The_first time I went to camp sir you know, same thing I think they pushed me like that, ya know. The religion thing, like you know we're gonna go for religion. First I didn't want to go, but when I go I found out I got fooled. You know I was pissed off, but I couldn't say nothing. I knew that they can (UI) me or someplace like that. And, so you know, three days over there, three days is all, I do know that I can go 48 60:50:15 GS: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 in three days. I do know that I can go in three days. This time the way I got home from the camp was very easy, it takes a road to take a shower or something over there, you know with water to wash your hands. I see a road over there down there. I said whoa. We came way far from down there you know from the camp. I got a chance to run away from it. So I just ran away from there. 'This was, the, the firSt time? (HH nodding) This is, what, what year, this was several years ago? Yeah, several years. Not on this trio to Pakistan? No. On a prior trip to Pakistan? What year was that? I think it was 2002think sir 2000. '20009 think so. What, what was the circumstances of why_you were in Pakistan at that time? At that time ya know ah I was over there, you know my mom came back from America. My mom came back for me. Ah huh. She came.back for us to bring us back over here, so we were staying over there you know. How long had you been over there? Ah, for right now? No, that time in 2000? ?Ah, 2000? I Was there for 10 years. I went in 1990, I grew up over there with my grandmother and my grandfather, so you know, my grand. . . In Pindi? 49 :50:Interview of Hamid Hayat. 6/4-5/05 Huh? In Pindi? Yeah, in Pindi. My grandmother said her you know we we want you, them to grow-over here so you know and they can help us out like that you know and. OK. 'So you were bOrn here and went over there in 1990, (HH nodding) stayed. - Before that I went to, before that I went 1992. Ah, 1990. I remember when I was before 1990.. Yeah. So you, so you ah, you went back and forth before 1990f So, so from 1990 to 2000. Ten years I was there and I got sick very badly. Ah, what's it called, meningitis? Um huh. .I got that over there. The doctors already told me that you have to go back over there and I said OK. Go back where? Uh Bnited States." To get better? Yeah, to get better. And this was when, 2000? Yeah, that, April something, May April, May.2000. Now, now when had you been to camp? Ah, in ah, it:was like ah before this. Before you came here, so. No. Before-I got sick, sir. - Before you got sick.- --Ah huh. OK. So, about right around 2000 then? 50 50:50:15 17:44:54 HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: GS: 'sound, right? Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Uh~huh. And that was with you mentioned that was just for a short period of time. (HH nodding) Um, and then_you went back in 2003 and then went to camp again here most recently. Ah, to make sure we've got the details the first time you were at the camp, (HH nodding) um, same kind of training? Yeah, the same everything, Pistol training? Yeah, but I.only over there for three days and in three days you can't learn nothing. - So did you do any pistol training? No, in three days I did nothing. .So, you just got, got there and then left. I just wanted to get out of there. Were they doing pistol training? I didn?t see any (UI). (UI) every day you hear shots. Yeah.I hear shots no doubt about that. I hear shots. But what (UI) a lot of people like you know running around over there, jogging around. _You know bigger* body than me, like.they're like more fat and more like ?you know tough than me, like that. So, a lot_of people getting in shape. Um and then ah pistol training you hear automatic weapons training, shot, you know, do you know what I mean by that? Kalishnikovs, you know machine guns, it has a different (HH nodding) Do, do you understand what I am saying? -- - - Um huh. 30 you hear, you heard that training both times? Kalishnikov? Yeah. I 51 60 '17 HH. :50:15 :46:13' PGS: HH: GS: cs: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Ah, not both time, ah same time, different times I heard. . OK, but when you on both, both times you went to camp- they were doing all these kinds of training? Yeah, they were, they were doing that. And then did they do RPG training? What's that? RPG's you know explosion, they, they launch an explosion off a Oh that (UI) not in front of me they didn't do it, and new students I don't think so they do it in front of new students over there. So um, um, and then explosives training? explosiVes training, yeah. So certainly youfve talked about the most recent time you're here but they were doing it. Did you hear explosions the other time also? Ah, the first time. Yes. The-first time I heard like twice. I remember that very good. Twice. - OK. I heard it twice. . So. The third, the second time when I went over there to camp_0hr it?s too much like boom boom? Boom, boom. Tell me and that what, that?s really interesting to us and that helps us so tell me what_the difference was that you observed, how the training is_ changing from 2000 to 2004. . It's same thing, not Changing that much. Well it sounds like there's more explosive's training, 52 .2160:50:15 HH: GS: GS: GS: 17:47:39 GS: G8: G5: G8: GS: GS: 'explosives like boom, boom. it's, it's, a ya know, Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 right? No, I said I heard that more explosives, more I heard that more than I heard that'the first time. And one of the-things that happens at these camps to is they want to get people ah, they want, I mean, clearly it's to teach people how to kill American troops. Yeah, kill any, like any country working against Muslims I think sir. .Any, any non-Muslim, kill Crusaders or or Jews Crusaders? Or or kill the Christians or Jews or what have you or Crusaders, what Well that means like.a um that's like the Christians. OK. (HH.nodding) So,.so in other words, non-Muslims, so they want to kill people that aren't, aren't That's what they want I think so sir, I mean (UI) And you hear that going ah so so part of the training_ to is is - - They didn't tell us like that like you know they just? say you guys you get training you know go back and you .know if you want if you want to go to any country you know. You?ll be trained. You're trained to go to any country you want like you. .know, I mean to where they are fighting,-you have to 90? to those countries. Did, did some of the peOple that are, tell me about the people who are doing the training. Ah huh. Because that is also very interesting to us. 'So tell 53 1 60:50:?ll17:49:HH: '25 .GS: 27 HH: _28 GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 me about thoSe people and your interactions with them, ya know, did they talk a um when military training usually they, they you know they will talk about battles maybe in the Afghan-Soviet war or other battles that these people had been in, where they learned how to do this. Tell me about that kind of, those kinds of things. Some of your instructors. .. - Ah, you know, the first person over there I would say,' you know (UI) foot or something like that (UI) Ah huh. Soviet Union he was fighting I think. Against the Russians? Yeah. I OK. So tell me what, what happened? What was.the' story with him? - He said I got my foot lost in a bomb blast or something like that. He was talking with someone else and I was just going over there like drinking tea or something, you know my face was like the other way you know, just -_listening, you know, not paying attention to to you know. Ah huh. Tell me about some of the other instructors that are there? (UI) this was the one you_know more like. He was one of_the main guys? Main guys I would say over there.l And-he uh, he was missing one foot. Yeah, one foot he was missing. And he said that he got his foot um blown off in Yeah. I I _In a bomb blast in uh Yeah, OK. Did he walk around with a crutch or did he just, 54 50:50:15 HH: GS: HH: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 .how did he get around? Crutch, I mean like with something you (UI) (HH pretends to hold crutch under left arm). Yeah he walk around with something. - What other instructors? (HH shaking head) You, youfre there for four months. Yeah, for four months a you know. Not that much like he said, I met.this guy like you know, I mean like you know I Seen him. GS: HH: GS: GS: HH: GS: HH: 17:50:22 GS: HH: (knock en HS: HH: (everyone Every day? Not every day. Whenever I seen him you know, I'll be like standing over there go pick up something and take in my hand, like you know just playing around. Just wanted to listen to this guy you know. Uh, huh. You keep in my mind that you know, maybe. Tell me about. What did you hear him say? Ah, the first time I was told you what he was saying. The second time you know he was just saying ah, tell those guys come to pray and like that, you know. Say that again. (UI) said ah, to the Other guy, the other guy, both those guys.like the other people sitting down. over there tell them come to pray over here.v Uh, huh. Tell them like that. Most of the time like you know. -you be like you know, like this the door) Let me, let me stop (UI) right back in. 0k. is out of the room; subject is alone) (door opens) 55 60:50:15 2 17:57:HH: 17:57:31 13 14 17:57:318:04:35 Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/445/05 we'll be right back in. I just wanted to give you a _couple things just in case you're hungry. (HH motions no) Oh, I'll-just put it here;? (U1) I want you to at least have a soda. Smoke sir? That?s the thing. 0k. Let, let me do this. 'Ah, I'm-gonna take you out in back and smoke. Ok.. '(door closes; subject alone) (door opens)- Why don't you come with me. Sure. Thank you sir. (U1) (door closes; room is empty) (voices out in the hallway UI) (door opens) 'Let you back in and have a seat. Why'don't you help yourself to a candy bar or chips, or anything. Oh. Take that soda. Thank you? If you can get me some water? 56 60:50: HS: (door 18:04: .(door 18:04: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat. 6/4?5/05 15 Ok. I'll get you another water. closes) I 47? opens, GS enters interview room) 58 Thatill help. You thirsty? Yeah. . you, you don't drink any I do drink it but I need water. Ok, I need water too actually. You drink and I'll get another. No. I'm just kiddin' go ahead. No, I appreciate that. Thank you. I (UI) eat something though. I'm not hungry (HH shaking head). Are you sure? . You ought to eat a little something. (HH shaking head) . And you ah, grab you one? Keep it. (HH motions to put it down) 'Ok. I'm But yeah, eat, eat something. :If you want If I need I 0k. _All right. Please do. Please do. "Um, with you know, I appreciate you being forthright. It's important stuff. So just, just hang in there and we?ll ah, um, it's important to us to, um, you know, I'm, you know we, we ah, um, we appreciate it because it sheds light . Do you have a nerd here sir? 57 60:50:15 18:06:02 GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: (knock on G5: LL: GS: LL: GS: GS: about it (HH nOdding) because it's what we do. GS: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05' I will. I don't have one on me, but- I contact you (UI) Yeah. How bout beeper to (UI) remember anything_to contact you. - I'll_give it, I'll give you everything the door, LL enters the interview room) YUP. You bet.? I'm gonna have another one of ?y partners come on in here. Hi, excuse me. Leticia. She also is ah, (UI) 1'11 sit on this chair? .(chuCkles) Yeah. -She's a bit of an expert in some of these areas an, and so you um you probably don't know_how, how the? FBI works I'm sure. um, but we have um, agents do a lot of different things. Yeah. And one of the things that, that, um, that we do is ah, know a fair amount about, you know Pakistani groups. Um, and you can, you know, not everybody knows about Sipah-i-Sahaba or Fazlur Rehman (HH nodding) and.all_ that kind of stuff. But we know you know, (HH nodding) about that stuff. So that's why we wanna talk to you Uh, huh. um, so, you know two things in that regard. (HH nodding) One is ah, it's important that you.tell the truth. . . Uh,'huh. Because we're gonna know when you're not. Uh, huh. Um,-and um, and we're gonna know. We know what's going on in Pakistan (HH nodding) for the most part. - 58 4 mqu60:50:15 HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: HH: GS: -GS: GS: GS: HH: l8:07:15_ Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Uh, huh. And we know how_the ISI works. Uh, huh. Um, and we, you know deal (HH nodding) with issues related to um, ah, them. We know how how the training camps work. (HH nodding) We know how they're sponsored. We know that certain, you know Harkat ul Mujahideen (HH nodding) -you know, may run a certain camp. I understand. And all this kind of stuff. And so that's why I was asking you those-questions (HH nodding) about the camps, the camp that you went to. Um, twice. And, when you said that you went um, a ah, that you think it was the same camp. - - Uh, huh. Why do you say that? 'Cause it looked like the same place. The same roads. Did you get to it the same way? It was kind of different. Tell me how it was different than that one. I think.it was like a mountains. Kind of zig zag going like this way, that way. (gesticulating, making a Zig 'zag motion) Now who, who, were any of the, any of the teachers the samesomebody runs, it's somebody's camp, right? ItVs not just, just a camp that, I mean people, so 'nother words you.know, Harkat ul Ansar or Harkat ul Mujahideen or somebody runs that camp. (HH nodding) ?ow tell me about who runs that camp. ?Beoause they keep it .going? They bring supplies to it. Who runs the camp? Yes, yes 59 Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05_ 1 60:50:15 . 2 HH: I don't know about that, but you know, people are . there, you know. You know, there are like big people .3 like you know. Ah, you know, I think so. Taller than 4 me, educated than me, more educated. 5 GS: Who? Were there the whole time? 6 HH: They were not there whole time. 7 GS: But it was-their camp? HH: I think so, it was their camp.' I think it was their 8 camp. (U1) 9 GS: So they would come and make sure everything was 0k. 19 HH: Yeah. 11 GS: And would they, would they sometimes participate in- 12 weapOns training? 13- HH: No. Not really. They just come and check in. 18:08:48 14 . . GS: Were they, were they ah, were they you knOw, Maulanas? . 15 Were .16 HH: - No, they didn't look like Maulanas, they have beards UI 17 G8: The Jihadis? .13 . 19 HH: I think so. Maybe, I'm not sure. GS: So these, these Jihadis, and that's how it works. I 20 mean that's what you're sayin' is making some sense because um, you know sometimes these groups have five 2; or six camps. 22 HH: Uh, huh. 23 GS: They don't put all their you know, all their trainees in one camp. . 24 - HH: Huh, uh. 25 GS: So um, they will.go check these various camps. (HH 26 nodding) So would, would, was it would, a day maybe 27 these guys would stay for a day. HH: Uh,'huh. 28 60 60:50:15 GS: HH: LL: HH: LL: LL: GS: GS: .GS: HH: GS: 18:09:50. GS: LL: GS: Interview of Hamid_Hayat, 6/4-5/05 And then they'd be gone. (HH nodding) And then you'd see 'em again a couple days later. Tell me how, you tell me. They come I think hour something like that I think so. What would they observe? Just look around they would go over there Did they ever talk to you guys? No. 'They never talk to us NO. They never 'Ok to us How old were the trainees? Ah, the guys were training? The guys that go into training.' Yeah. To go into training? - Like you. Um, older than me too Tell me. Tell me. From how old to how old? I would say from ah, 20 years old to ah, 19, 20 years I.old. Starting maybe from 18. 18 to 30, er? Yeah, something like that._? 0k. And were some of these guys ah have they had some of 'em already been in, been to Jihad? . Ah no I don't think so they been to Jihad. I think so the guys over there they just get trained up. They don't come back again. 61 1 . 60:50::ll:09 Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 They get, so once, once you go off to fight Jihad you don't come back? 'They don?t come back. 0k? So um, when you, now one of the things you said too is, you can go from this camp you could go fight Jihad anywhere in the world.' Yeah, anywhere in the world. Like you know ah, they, they don?t tell us like, you have to contact this guy or this guy like that anything, they didn't tell us nothing like that. That's kinda like weird that, you know, if you get trained, you know they have to tell you have to go over here and like go from there over here. Uh, huh. they didn't tell us.' What'd they, tel, what'd they tell you about the different places you could go? - They ah, didn't say anything like you can go to this country like this and like that, and like that. Where did. I mean some people ah, wanna, wanna go someplace. Some peOple maybe Kashmiri. Uh, hUh. And so they may wanna go to Kashmir. Uh', huh. Some people may be ah, I think-so they ah, they go you know, first the Kashmir_ is with Pakistan. Uh, huh. They go over there I think so they cross (U1) hiding like you know they hide and go like that Who hides? The people who want to go for Jihad. Uh, huh. 62 (60:50:HH: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 They hide and go like that. Go to Kashmir? Yeah. Where else would they go? Afghanistan Afghanistan. These are the two countries I'll say they go easily, and the other countries, I don't know. some, would probably wanna go to Iraq? Ah. I say maybe.they go to Afghanistan from there may .be they go to Iraq Ok. I mean what, where did you hear people talk about that though? About? The.conversation about where people were gonna go, or - where they might? Ahh You know, alot of people you know, they were not saying that we're gonna go over here like that, you know, they were just thinking. Maybe we'll go over here maybe we'll go over Tell me about: Who, thinking what? Tell me They were thinking like you know, going to Afghanistan or Kashmir like that, that's what they were thinking. And what else? What other places? Ah, Tell me the, tell me what, what are the possibilities if you go to this camp what are the places you could go if you wanted to? - Ah, the possibility IJll say Kashmir and what's it called Afghanistan? Uh, huh. These are the places (HH nodding). Where else in the world is, is, is the Jihad being fought right now that, that these people might, might 'want, might be able to go? 63 60:50:15 HH: 18:12:19 GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: FIGS: HH: GS: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Ah, Iraq. Iraq? Yeah. 0k. Now when ah, what happens, what, do people understand when they go to these places. That they are doing wrong and like ah, Yes. Yeah. Some of the people know. No not that they're wrong. I mean, 'cause I would imagine that for the people there they, they understand they're going to fight America. Uh, huh. (HH nodding) Is that true? Yeah. (HH nodding) Yeah. They know that they're fighting against uh you know countries American, or other countries, Or England Or, UK. Right. Other countries. Some of the people I think so they don't wanna go, but they're forced to go. I'll say that. Now-when they go to um, um, fight um, um, in these places um, um, do they ah, are they looking to be martyred. Is that what they're, is that Martyred? 64 :50:15 GS: HH: GS: GS. :13:22 GS: GS: HH: GS: GS: GS: LL: LL: LL: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Yeah. To be martyred to be What's that sir? ah, to be ah, ah, you know I mean if you were killed then what happens?- Is that a good thing if you're killed fighting Jihad? Is that what Yeah, over there and you knoW-in Muslim religion. Right. They think it?s a good thing. So would they talk about that at the camp? No, they don't talk about that at the camp. They. don't, they don't talk about this at the camp or anything. -They just train you. That's it. They just train you. Train you in mil, in weapons training? To be, to go fight somewhere in Jihad, they just don't nec, they didn't, you don't find out where you're going until_it's over? Yeah. After that some of them, you know some of the people you know, they say if anyone wants to go you know they take you like that. Did you see, now you were there for four months. Uh, huh. Did you-see-people that left while you were there? Ah, to Jihad? I Uh, huh. Uh,?huh. No, I didn't see that mush people. I see maybe like five or six people. I'll say. . That left to go fight Jihad? No, no, ahh.. There in the training? They left training. 65 10 11 12 13 I4 60:50:15 LL: HH: LL: HH: LL: HH: LL: GS: 18:14:41 Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4?5/05 Oh, they left training. Jihad I didn't see people going from there. I didn't see people Now would they tell you that's that they were going to fight for Jihad? No. Or would they not tell anybody and then just leave? They'd leave, they?d just leave. They don't tell no one that we're going to Jihad or anything like that. 0k. Did the people that were coming to look and observe you during, during, while you were in camp. Did they um, um, were they looking at people to say hey I want these guys to come fight with me in Kashmir?' No. Did you ever see people show up and. and, No they, they never say that. They never say that .like you know, I want this person. I'm just thinking about you (HH points to GS) like you're over there I want this guy to be workin?. They never say that. You never saw that. Ok. Did they observe you guys and watch you guys while you were training? .Like they, did they stand in the back and just kind of watch what you were doing? No. They just come and check, like you know, hows everything going, that's it, they leave. And.who did they talk to when they come? Ah. You know. Ah, the people that were there working in the kitchen and stuff like that. Who take care of the stuff over there. They talk.. . So, the people that are running the, the camp. Yeah. 0k. 66 10 ll l2 13 14 1'60:50:15 GS: IHH: GS: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 What else. I'm gonna talk about, and try be helpful to us. What else um, you know I?m askin' you questions but, but ah, so we're um, you know, we know a lot of stuff already. (HH nodding) We're asking you questions but you have a mind full-of memories (HH nodding). Uh, huh. From where you've been and what you've seen. (HH . nodding) So um, what, what other, what other things ah, do you think we would be interested in hearing about these camps? What.other things would help us to understand them? Um, what other things are happening in these camps right now that we need to be concerned about? . I think so (UI) the same thing is going on over there,- I'll say the same thing. So it hasn't changed? I don't think so they change sir because they don't, I don't think that they can change it probably right now. So before, like for instance you went to camp twice?? Yes. That we've, we've talked about today. One of them was before ah, September 11th. Uh, huh. The attack in, in the United States. One of 'em was long after, (HH nodding) and just recently in November or December of 2004. Correct? And you, say, a lot . um, in, but nothing has changed in the camp. (HH shaking head) So the same things are going on. Still, I mean befOre and after-um, primarily the camps. Same thing I'll say. Same thing. Their purpose of the camps, train for Jihad.y Same thing. . Same thing. The um, and the Jihad is um, is to train to fight American troops or, English 0r, non-Muslim troops in the UK you said. Ah. '67 1060:50:15 HH: '5 GS: HH: GS: GS: GS: LL: LL: 18:17:44 GS: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Any country that you know, (UI) fighting against Muslim countries. Ok. So it's not, yeah, so the, the, the, the camp wasn't just about ah, Pakistan. It's about going all these other places? . Uh, huh. You know,_the person who are not that good in training I think sir they don't care about them they say just go, they let you go and they don't care, they let you go. . So if you're not that good in training (HH shaking head) they're not gonna, they're not gonna-spend a lot of time; If you know, after four months when I left what do you guys think that they, they won't come back for me again. You know, they didn't try, but you know I was not that good. If I was good I think Sir they maybe -come.back for me. Right,-right. Um, were some guys good? I see a lot of big bodies guys over Guys, big bulky, stronger. 'Your body, like you know people, (laughs) You know. Yeah. So there's people that, that, that exhibit some kind of strength. . Uh, huh. Um, and they would, they would be um, they would go after those guys? (HH nodding) And so those um, and they were ones, so good, were they good at_shoot1ng weapons? Um, they're not that good at shooting weapon, they were maybe good at like_you know running and, Right. 63 28? 50:50:15 HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: LL: GS: GS: HH: GS: GS: HH: GS: GS: HH: 18:19:08 Interview of Hamid Hayat, Like that, stuff. Good strong fighters. Did they teach you how to fight? No; No Karate, no nothing like that. Huh: I 'Cause you know I don't have that much energy, Well I mean, but, but not just you not, when I say you, they teach you how, did they teach other people how to fight? There at the camp?~ Yeah they do. (nodding) Yeah. They do. Ah, other people. Right,.0k. um, and your uncle's been to camp. We talked about that. (UI) (UI) uncle. How about, uh, curr, ah,? Who else? Who did you know from camp? If I was to say Hamid um, ah, who were your friends at the.camp? . - My_friends. I have no friends oVer there. I didn't make no friends because you know there's people that I didn't even know there. (UI) I didn't, I didn't trust no one like that, anything. I So you didn't trust any of the people there? Huh, uh. Um, did, did some of the guys ah,.who were in camp, well it?s'all men right? Yeah. Well, did some of them have friends with each other. Were they some closer to each other with, were there? like some people from Lahore and some people from Multan, Ah. 69 ?-21 -22 '23 24 25 -_25 27 23 60:50:15- GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: -GS: GS: HH: GS: GS: GS: HH: GS: GS: GS: -GS: Interview of Hamid'Hayat, 6/4-5/05 And some people from Karachi? I don't know.about the cities. All right. But you know,'a lot of people stick together like that, I don't know about the cities this guy came from there and like that. Tell me where some of the people were from? Ah, one of them was from, from say say like ah, what's it called ah, it's ah, Yeah. Yes Ok. Where else? These are a lot of people. A lot of people from N, Uh. huh. Were there some Afghanis there? No. I didn't see no Afghanis over there. Would you recognize Afghanis?' I can't recognize them that good. So there could have been some there? Maybe. I'm not sure about that. {cause ah. wh, were people speaking mostly Pashto? Ah, not that much, sir. Mostly Urdu. Urdu, yeah. 0k. What, what other languages did you hear? Did you hear Arabic? 70_ :50:15 HH: GS: :19:GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4~5/05 No Arabic. Ah, just, just in prayer? Ah, prayer,.you know.the (UI) Right. (UI) Right. Right. Um, and you, are you Hafiz? Do, do do you have you memorized the Quran yourself? I I did but I forgot. .So you would pray though. You could say all the prayers in Arabic at one time? Um, what's that mean? You could say the prayers in Arabic? Like five times a day? No, no used to be able to do it in Arabic? In Arabic. You could say the prayers in.Arabic? Yeah. say that every time. Yeah. So 0k. You used to have that all memorized. Yeah. I It's hard to remember all that though. Yeah. I I If you don't practice. Uh, huh. Um, Only you know fasting when you get one month for fasting 71 10 11 ?-60:50:15 LL: HH: GS: "13:21:11 HH: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Right You know, you have to like you know, memorize it and you know, that's the month you have to.memorize it like that Right. What um, a lot of interesting things happened while you were in Pakistan um, in the world and in Pakistan? Um, even while you were in camp. And so I wanna know from your eyes while you're in Pakistan you know, ah, it helps us to understand things. Um, you know, some important members of Al?Qaeda were arrested in Pakistan. - . Uh, huh Um, ah, there-was fighting in Wasiristan, the Pakistani government was.doing certain things. um, did you hear talk about some of these things? Like'ah, fighting in Pakistan? Yes. Like against the government? Yes. You know I, I never heard about that like you know they gonna fight against the government or anything like that, you know. . 'Did you hear um, when um, ah, what, was there concern at the camp that the government might come? Were people wor, yeah, tha .The government. fAbout the government ah, you know, I - did heard about the government um, I did heard you know and I was thinking they should come over here. Ihey should come and you know close this place just like that. 'But they didn't came. 1 They never came? And were other people concerned, were worried you know. I mean you're_there. Were you, people worried, looking around, in case somebody,-the government came. When somebody would come in new would they look at 'em and see, make sure they were ok? No, they don't care. (HH shaking head side to side) They don't care. 72 :50:15 :22 :?LL: 15_ HH: .LLHH: 27? IJLL: 28 Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 No one cares. 0k. Now were people coming in like all the time? Uh, huh. Like every day? 'New_people. No, not every day, or was a week, after a week, couple of weeks, something like that. 0k. Now when, when you finished at the end of the three, four months that you were there. What do they say? You just, you just leave, or you just? I just ran away. I ran away from there. You ran away? Yeah. How long were you supposed to be there? Ah, they didn't say nothing. That?s up-to you guys if you want to stay there long as you want to stay. So you go and you stay there for as long as you want to stay Yeah. The first time when I run away I was-like you know, I was, the second time I was scared you know, I was thinkin' maybe they gonna you know kill me or anything. - This, this last time, in 2004? It was-like 2004 or something, yeah. 0k. I was scared, you know Ok. I was thinkin' you know they shoot me or anything like 73 60:50:15 LL: HH: LL: HH: GS: HH: LL: GS: 18:23:47 GS: GS: GS: .know, Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 that. That's why I stay there. Why were you scared? Is there something that happened when you were there? No, no, nothing happened That made you scared? Nothing happened over there. I was just scared you you know.' Did you see anybody else get shot while you were there? No, no one, no one got shot or anything like that. I was just scared you know. Every time I hear anything happen like, you know, I just I get s_cared like you know. Get in a fight. Like if someone get in a fight like that. (UI) I'm just saying if you get in a fight with. that guy, I'm _saying I'm the one who' gonna get nervous. .I get nervous like that. 0k. Yes like that. was kinda nervous and scared and like that. Now um, when you go to camp is um, ah, although it was, it ended, it ended up being hard for you because um, training was difficult. Uh, huh. And shooting is diff, is hard, (HH nodding) right? It's not easy going to camp. hard (HH nodding) work I assume. Um, but, but is it something that um, people go to camp they want to make their family proud, I assume. Um, Well some of the people you know they don' ell their family that they go like that Hmm. What' they tell 'em? Oh, I'm just going on vaCation and like that, you know going with my friends like that. Or going on Ijetma. Or going, so this is certainly different. So do some of these people think they were going, like ah, you know, like with a religious group? Like they' re just going away on a religious thing, (HH 74 -.60:50::25:26 LL: LL: GS: 'Yeah. Interview of Hamid Hayat. 6/4-5/05 nodding) but it turns out to be camp right? Yeah, some. (UI) So you've seen that. Is that common? Yes. You want something to eat?_ No1 I ate" All right. And you're ah your Dad knows what's going on. (HH nodding) And how is he going to ah this, ah Ah like I told you guys before he was kinda like. he said that thing. Ah I told my Dad my Dad said you know um, you gonna talk to them. He said tell them the truth? I. told him the truth. Like you know what happen everything and - - Right . he said you do something about it. Like you know, like my Mom got sick and my Dad you know he didn't talk about this again or anything like that. So, I, I don't totally understand that. So in otherwords you told your dad about the camp? 'Uh huh. And then, and then he. would said you were gonna do something about this? (yawns) He said (UI) gonna do something about, 0k. But I don't (yawns) (UI) excuse me. When did you tell your dad about the Camp? When I came back. When you came back. 0k. So this,- So he, ?75 (11:15-60: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: 50:15 HH: GS: LL: HH: - GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: 18: GS: 26:21 Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4?5/05 ?this last week? From where? Just-in the last week you told your dad? 0h from the camp when I came back? No when you came back yeah was he home when you came back before? Where was your dad? Yeah, he was over there. Oh, 0k. He was over there. Ok. So he had no idea you were at_ camp when you were at camp? No. He think I?m with the. Jamaat you know for the Ijetma. (phonetic) Tabligh Jamaat? Tabligh Jamaat, you guys know what Tabligh Jamaat is? 'I've heard of it. Yeah. Yeah. So he thought you were with, on a Jamaat? On a _Yeah. I told him my Dad said that' .s kinda weird not good like that. How many of the Students at the camp were, were., had also been on Jamaat? Ah with, Tabligh you mean? Yes. What can I say, I didn't ask no one like that. Were some people Iabligh Jamaat people though? No. There was no Tabligh Jamaat people over there. Just you? Ah, they told me that wefre going with the Jamaat. 76 10 11 i2 13 14 _12-4; 28 60:50:15 GS: HH: GS: . HH: GS: GS: LL: LL: HH: LL: LL: HH: LL: LL: -LL: Interview of Hamid Hayat. 6/4-5/05 They (UI) me like that.. Ahh.. Fool me. Tabligh Jamaat. All right, is_that, what happened both times? Yeah. The second time I knew, ah, the second time yeah I say I think so this (UI) is not going to happen with me, I'm going to like you know,v Right. To Jamaat. Still happen to me Right. So it's still happening to you I'm going to look at my notes here real quick. It's hard to sit here and look at a Snickers Bar. Are you sure you don't want a bite? No. I'm (UI). (chuckles) You guys are not off on Saturdays and Sundays? Sometimes. Um, does your Mom know that you Are we off on Saturday and Sunday? Sometimes we're not. were at camp? Ah,.yes. She does? 0k. When did you tell her? The same thing.-? Now did they know that you had been at Camp first time?_ The same. the Ah, the first time? In 2002 I believe or when.was, 2000? 2000, yeah. When, the first time you went to a camp when was that, 2000? 77 :50:15 :27:.HHHH: '22 "23.613what have you. Interview of Hamid Yes. Ok. So did they know, that you had been there? Yeah they know. 0k, and then they knew of-this last time Yeah the last time too. But I was kinda like, I don't know why they did nothing about it. What could they do? What, when they say we're gonna do something about it. What is it that they can do? They can contact the cops over their. tell them like you can see (UI) guY- The cops and my son, or contact that You're how old 23. Right now? Yeah. Yes. 20, 22, 23, so you're a grown man I mean certainly so you um, ah, I mean you too could have contacted the cops or what have you. I have no cell phone. No phones over there. That was the problem no computer, no nothing. 'When you got back though you didn't, I mean you d, whatyour memory? I was just putting it out of my memory I was telling my mom that maybe, maybe, maybe if I go again I know more things and I'll go back with Intel. - Right. So you go learn more things. Yeah. Now if you went back again In order to go back. you would have gotten to learn would, would you learn, probably new things, Uh, huh. um, 78 60:50:15 LL: GS: 18:29:02 LL: LL: LL: GS: GS: LL: LL: _Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 How many times can you go bask before they send, send you out for Jihad? Do they have like you have to be here so much training before you go to Jihad, or? I think so for ah six months (yawns) seven months. Six or seven months. So you were getting close. Yeah. Like that, but you know I didn?t got trained that much or anything. They were using me for like you know for the kitchen and the cooking, but I don't?know how to cook or anything like that. You don't know how to cook? (HH shaking head) Did you learn while you were there? No, I, No. Ha, ha. Washing vegetables and everything like that.? Oh, 0k. I was getting bored over there but you know, for my life I was doing that yen know it was like stay here, stay here you know, and when the day comes find a, find a way to get out (UI) find a way out (UI). I see a .. like I told you before I see a road over there. I went down over there bus came (UI), road over there, said take me, so Now you, could, could you go back to this camp tomorrow if we asked you to? Ah, if I rest like, like couple months (Chuckles) I mean a couple of days, couple of months, yeah, (UI) you guys want me to go I'll go. So you could go back to right, right You could find it. You can like, show us and 'Yeah. figure out how to get there? I'll go over and you know, anyways I'll find it and you 79 low 60:50:15 GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: 18:30:31 HH: LL: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 know get information like that. Were um, most of the people there ah, wh, what, what, what, brought most of the other peeple to camp., To the camp? Was it, was, was it because they hate America, or they, they ah, Oh, they were thinkin' that you know, ah, American and England was making you know was not doing the right things. - Uh, huh. They're not doing the right things. Did they feel an obligation to be, to participate in Jihad. - (UI) Because of, they, they, they felt.1ike it it wa, wa, did they feel like they, as good Muslims (HH nodding) they_should go and do something? Yeah. I seen that too, twice over there they said our? parents tell us to go. They don?t like to come. Uh, huh. How 'bout some of the-other people? Other people, I mean you know, I didn't get a chance talk, but these two guys they_work with me in the kitchen. How old are they? They were like 20 years old. 20. 20, 22, sir. Where were they from? .. I didn't ask the city? But, their Urdu was like you? know mixed up, and it looks think they were speaking their uh language, originally it was Pashto. I think so they were from-NWFP. . OR. From that area also. Hmm. And you said this was 80 60:50:15 HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: 18:31:40 GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 almost in the jungle. (UI) What, well, like jungle ah to me means like ah, you mean like pine trees? (HH hands making circular motion) (UI) Like, like the mountains? Regular trees, yeah like that. Like_those kind, not, not, not like the jungle like in Africa? No, no, no, no. -Ah, so you mean like, like just lots of tall, very tall trees Like a forest? Yeah Or just trees .Trees or jungle and animals? Trees, no animals in there. No animals. I Just lots of lots (HH nodding) of trees. Yeah. So you were able to train there and people couldn't see. Uh, huh. Could they, could you See up ahead? Or.were there trees all over? - You could see that what's it called (motioning upward). The sky? 81 KOCD-thU'llh _.2a 60:50::32:44 'Interview of Hamid Hayat. 6/4?5/05 The sky. A little bit? A_little bit, not that much. And then the tell me how like the ah why don't you draw for me 'Did you ever hear any helicopters or planes or anything up in the sky? No. Never. No noise. We were hoping.? I was hoping. You were hoping? Yes. If you don't mind, maybe we'll we'll. draw up like um, start with where the road is.T We're gonna_pretend the camp is in the middle here. 0k. 0k. .And so tell me where the road, where the roads come in, 'cause you said there 5 one road you saw a bus. So when you walk in let's start here. This is where you got off the bus. Uh, huh. 0k. And then what happened? I Just going. (motioning sideways) So tell me we're gonna draw this map out ?cause I'm gonna try to get an idea of how big the camp is and _whether they. See the_camp was not that big Sir. It was maybe like ah, make it like ah, almost like, I'll say like Arco Arena. Like Arco Arena? Maybe that, you know, 82 GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: IIGS: HH: GS: GS: LL: CS: HH: LL: LL: LL: LL: 60:50:15 Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 0k. That size, have you ever been to the Aroo Arena? I never, I've seen it from outside and I seen it TV. 0k. All right so you, you um, you walked you said at night time for about three miles? Three, three and a half, four miles, yeah. 0k.y And then you um, and then you came into the camp. So what, as you come into the camp, so are you with me here On the walk? Can you read my writing ok? Yeahh Ok. And so you walk to the camp. Uh huh. 0k, and than what's the first you see? Oh, this kind of gate. Ok. So I'm gonna put a gate here. Is the gate wood? Is it ah, chain link fence It's kind of black color on, black color on and you can?t like there?s not shiny Is.it metal? I,'we didn't touch it. If it look like shiny you know, it was not shiny. If it was, if it was shiny then you can see (UI), like uh. was it like bars? no bars, Was it wood? How was the gate can you kind of describe it._ It was black color It was black. Black color, 0k. That's what I know. But I don't know if it was wood or ah, 83 10 11 12 14' 15 16' '1760:50:15 LL: HH: LL: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: LL: GS: LL: GS: GS: LL: GS: GS: 18:34:29 GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 How did it open? It was open. It was open. Ok. So you went through the gate. Uh, huh. Umm, and now ah, how many buildings were in the camp? They're like small small rooms. Like, like building, building, building?- Little, small, like houses? No, no, there not house like this, like this room, I'll say - Like this room here? Like ah, make half of this window.- Yeah. Ok. I think so maybe this much would be one room over there. How many, tell me, How big was the room? Yeah. How many-buildings? How many buildings? So, so, here I am, I'm walking in. Yeah, you?re walking inside and, Now what, are the buildings here, here, here, here here? (points to map) Yeah. There's like ah, three, four, five, over there I'll say-(points to map) . And how many rooms for each one? So. 84 HH. :50:15 GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: I-II-II: GS: LL: HH: LL: GS: HH: LL: HH: LL: GS: HH: GS: GS: LL: GS: Interview of Hamid I think there is one room.- So like this. Now Yeah. I think it was like this. _Ok. So here?s, four, I put four, you said three or four. So four buildings on the one side. Uh, huh. 'And are there buildings on the other side too? On the other side there was only I think so, two buildings. So you say, Were they bigger or smaller than? Same size. -Same size. So same sine. All right so here we are. Here's the building. . And in the middle-there?s nothing. It's like_grass, little bit. - Just trees or nothing? A little bit of grass. Just, 0k. . All right. So-there's gra?s in the middle like that and then um, are there, where is the, tell me where .things happen in the camp? (yawns) In the middle, in the middle Sir. In the middle is where. Where's the-firearms training? The explosives? -Yeah. Is far away The weapons and the guns? Are they up here,-here, here? HAS you come into the 85? 10 ll 12 ammonia: 60:50:GS: LL: HH: GS: LL: _To the explosives area? Where, where did you shoot the Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 camp (UI). (UI)(points to map) So explosives training that way how far? Um, like I was telling you guys they, if they took the explosives over here they go way way down that way. (motioning downward) . I mean is it like ahh you know, like, like. How far did you have to walk from the camp, from that camp area, those buildings. How far did you have to walk? To get to the explosives? (UI) 15-20 minutes. 0k, 5: down low. Did you go in a car? No, not in a car. Walking, 0k. pistols? You know it's like open area. Where abouts? Show me on_here, on the map. You know this is like the the place, (pointing to map).' Up in,- I I So it's still same area. Same_area. So that's where all the, that's where all the weapons training is? So people sleep here. .Where's the kitchen? Ah, the kitchen's right here on this side (UI). (motions to map) (UI) it?s one of the rooms (UI) So we'll say kitchen is on this side and is everything 86 10 11 12 13 14 15 01660:50:15 HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: LL: HH: LL: LL: HH: GS: HH: GS: Interview oi Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 ales um, ah, where people slept? Yeah. Did you sleep in, in the buildings or did they sleep outside? Some of the people they sleep outside. Some of Where did you sleep?? Um, we were inside for like ah you know, sometimes inside sometimes outside you know. When_did you 3, Ok. So any particular building? 0r all of 'em, or? - Particular building? Yeah, is there one, one of the buildings you would Which building would you sleep in? The first one, the "second one, the third one. It's like ah, maybe like this sometimes the first, second, . - Ok. So you didn?t have like a set building that you would have, 1- A permanent. permanent. shaking head side to side) A Permanent one. Yeah 0k. No.permanent. No permanent permanent one. Did they have, did the' buildings have names? No, they don't have no names. (HH shaking head side to side) Ok.? And so down here where the explosives training, that's where all the other weapons training was too. Uh. huh. So. did you see any big weapons. (HH yawning) Some of these camps um, I mean some of them do have them. I. mean there's some camps that have, tanks in them. 87 HH. :50:15 GS: GS: G51 18 237:29 GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid-Hayat, 6/4-5/05 No, they don't have no tanks because this is_a very small, like Arco Arena. Like I said. It's like, the size of Arco Arena. Size of Arco Arena, they don't have like tanks or anything like that. They just have, how many guns did you, how many different pistols did you see? I seen like ah two of them, I think so_one was automatic and one was not automatic. Ok. So and how many ah, how many Kalishnikovs did you see? - - Only one, only one like that. One Kalishnikov.. Yes. I I And uh one shotgun. One shotgun, one Kalishnikov and two pistols? Yes. And then ah, you said you say people take big boxes? Yeah. And I was not sure maybe they, I was just saying maybe they-explosive, explosive in there. Maybe I'm just saying. I mean they?re taking like ah, two boxes at a time. You said you heard lots of explosions. 'Yeah. did, I did heard lots of explosions. .Maybe I was saying,-maybe there was explosives, in. In those boxes? Yeah maybe. No name on the boxes no_nothing like that. 0k. What other things did you see them do any other experiments,.or anything else at the camp? No. Nothing else going on? Was there anything. Wha, were these buildings only for sleeping? Yeah. They were. 83 60:50:15 GS: HH: GS: LL: LL: GS: LL: HH: LL: HH: LL: 13:33:42 GS: LL: GS: LL: LL: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid.Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Was there, was there a Masjid somewhere? Oh, we pray in our room. Ok. So there wasn't (HH shaking head) a spaniel place for prayer. Now the, the instructors or the ones that were providing the training. Where did they sleep? They sleep in one of the rooms too, One of the rooms' and ah, I think so they were-on the left side. They were on the, Which side, show me? Which side? This, this is the left side. Huh? (U1). I'll say like maybe on the right side over here. (points to map) They were on the right side. I'm not sure. 0k. Now did they all stay in one room? Um, yeah. They stay in one room. How many of them were there about? Just, one of them, five or six I think How many in, instructors or, or Teachers I Teachers, did you have? I think so five. Five. Were they the same ones the whole time? Yeah. The whole time, same ones So I'm gonna say approximately five teachers. (HH nodding) Is that? I don't wanna put words in your -mouth. So I want you to tell me. Is that right? .89 G8- :50:15 HH: GS: HH: GS: LL: HH: HH: LL: HH: 239:3? GS: ILL: LL: :39:51 GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 0k. That's what I heard you say, so. Can I have the water, please? Yeah, you bet. I hear your stomach making noises. Do you want some cookies? Nothing. No, nothing. Has your appetite been gone since you came back or? What's that mean? You're hungry, or not hungry or? VI was saying that on the phone to T. Uh, huh. It's kind of like tension and everything like that. My Mom you know she's sad, and-everything. Uh, huh. Is she doing better? Ah, right now like you know what happened with us you know. Not better. Uh, huh. . More concerned. More concerned. Yeah.- Now did this change. Now this is.the camp um, you were here most recently. (HH nodding) And let me just work on when you were there again, I'll put a little note here. So you got married on March 30th. Yeah (HH nodding) Right? And you were at ah, and you went to camp before that. (HH nodding) Right. And so you um, um, were you at the camp for ah, for, Ramadan or Eid? - No. (HH shakes head Side to side) 90 60:50:15 GS: HH: LL: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: -GS: HH: GS: GS: HH: GS: LL: 18:41:00 GS: ILL: LL: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4?5/05 So were you at the camp after Ramadan? Before-that sir. Before-Ramadan. Qk. I came before Ramadan back. So you came back before Ramadan. _Yeah. when was Ramadan? 'Ah, the first time or the second time? Yeah, the-first time. What do you mean. Do You mean ah, the first time I went for three days only. - Yeah, I_know It was far away, Ramadan was far away. Right. When I came back the second time ah, I think so, Ramadan was like, I think so, like ah, one and a half months or something like to Ramadan. Ok. I say. So that?s, I think November. October, November. think so. October or something maybe, I'm not sure like that _something. oh, why can't I think of the date. If you guys have an Islamic calendar maybe that's gonna 'say. - 91 LL: GS: HH: LL: HH: LL: HH: LL: GS: GS: HH: GS: LL: GS: GS: FGS: LL: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Yeah. I probably have it. Is that when you left the camp? Or_right when you got to the camp? No, I was back home. When you were done with the camp? Yeah. So, you were at camp and, right before Ramadan you came home? Yeahthere today do you think there'd be sOme of the same instructors, teachers would still be there? -I can't say, sir. It hasn't been that long. How long's it been, it's - Two years. No it's been, No, it's 2003? no it's been two thou, .. you said, you just got married in March. "Yeah. in 2005. So. So it?s been, it was-2004. 4 So it?s been less than a year. Less than a year, Maybe. 92 60:50:LL: GS: LL: GS: HH: GS: HH: LL: GS: GS: GS: GS: HH: llGS: .Interview of Hamid Hayat. 6/4-5/05 So it would have been, around-September. September, October. August. When he, when he went to camp? When he was'there. Yeah. Well he was, he was there for almost about four months and you say you left, you went there, so say, you say November. October, September. So you were there July, August, July or August. ?July, August, September. Was it hot when you went there at first? Yeah. But it's not that hot not that cold. Did it start getting colder when you were at camp? Ah, when I came back? I No, yeah. Yeah, back, when you were there? When you were there. Some time cold some time hot,.you know. (UI) At the end um, In the end you know it was gettin"cold. It was gettin' very cold? Yeah. I Was it snowing?. no, no Snow over there. Raining sometimes, little bit of rain. . Do you remember anything that happened while you were at camp that would, that would, that would think oh yeah that happened. Do you remember hearing anything. anything happen in Pakistan? 93_ \JO?lU?lth28' 60:50:LL: GS: Interyiew of ?amid Hayat. 6/4-5/05' No. That was in, that_would that would help us identify when you were there? No. No? Um, how's the security around'the camp? (HH shaking head) Are there, Not that much Are there security people watChing-the camp so that people don't come in? A little bit people, I'd say like five. Are they right at the gate or are they like down the road? Ah, not on the road._ Not on the road. Inside 5 or 6 people some of them standing by the road by_the gate. Uh, huh. Some of them walking inside you know they security like that. Kalishnikovs, or what, what are they, what are they guarding? Ah, they have a stick in their hand. You know (UI) what's it called, maybe like a cricket hat or something like that; Like this walking around like that. -What are they, what's their job? What were they? Just sort of looking around, that's it. Are they? Would they hit the Students, sometimes? No, they can't hit the students. They never can. 'If they hit the students, you know that won't be good for them. . - .Ok. Does it cost money to go to the_camp? '94 50 HH. 350:15 GS: HH: 18 :44:24 GS: HH: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Ah. Or do they pay you money? Ah. to go to the camp? Yeah. No, they don't give you money. Ah, what do they give you?: Ah, only dinner, and ah, lunch and ah, breakfast. That's it. - So they gave, so, so you get ah, free dinner, lunch and breakfast? Yeah. It's like ah, what's it called. rice. Rice. That's it. Only like you know, ah, what would you call it ah, like ah, you know like ah, how do you guys cook rice. Can you tell me maybe I can tell you that like how we do it over there. You guys put rice in the water. - Uhr huh. Uh. huh. Hot water. Boil it. Yeah. Same thing. Boil, I forgot the name. (talking over each other) Boil the rice. Uh, huh. Same thing. Like thatrice and vegetables. Yeah, vegetables, rice, was the only things over there. And then you were in the kitchen cooking? Yeah, washing vegetables, like that sbmetimes. 95 10_ 60:50:15 GS: GS: 18:45:35 HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: HH: GS: HH: LL: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat. 6/4-5/05 Ok. Um, the, the ah, the target, just so I understand you talked about the pistol target you looked at just so I have it right.' I wanna make sure. I have an image in my mind but I wanna make sure it's right. So draw for me the target what it looked like. (HH makes circular motion with finger) Here go, go ahead. You can do it. (HH drawing) 0k. Like this. And then was there other lines around it outside? No, it's like ah, probably like its, because I think so it?s this big, you have like this like that (drawing target) 0k like that 0k. All right. So, it was we call that like a bullseye target. So you would shoot at the target and then try to, try to make shots Yes. At the target. Ok. And that's, .unusual about it or anything? so there's nothing_ Uh, huh. And, so people would just, would they keep changin"the target for each student? I don't know. Or would they have the same target So. Was there a lot of holes in it? Yeah. (laughs) Where were your holes going? I didn't, I shoot one, and I couldn't see it, I think -it was around here-somewhere. Yeah. Maybe. 96 60 :50:15 2 GS: . 3 LL: :46:'15 016 :47:HH: 26Ii13 .27' LL: .28 HH, Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05, All right. (Clears throat) Any other questions? I don't know what you guys covered so I don't have. Pretty much (UI) if you wanted to go back, what would you have _to do to go to be able to go back? To the same place? To, to camp. -Ah, you know Wh, Go over there, someone ask me why you came back I just say just came back for fun, you know just cruising' around hanging around (UI) came.back to see my wife. I say that's the best thing I can say to them you know that's what I say to them spend like a week or . something, more like a couple of days or a couple of weeks (UI) don't tell no one (UI) you know they gonna say what yOu doing, I?ll say I got money I'm going on vacation or something like that (UI). .- Ok. And then what do you do? Just get in there and you know tell ?em that I'm back you know and you know get like information you know you' guys need or anything.1ike that. They don't, they don't check on stuff or anything. If they're gonna check on stuff, they (UI) they can't (UI) I won't put. like, you know the information like that (UI) put it in my shoes or something like that. Sure' I in my socks or anything Uh,_huh. IBut you could just show up-and go. Yeah._ I mean that's not a problem Yeah, if, if it's still open right.now, see 97 60:50:15 LL: HH: LL: HH: LL: HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: GS: HH: GS: GS: Interview of?Hamid.Hayat, 6/4-5/05 "Uh, huh. If it's open still. Do they um, move the camps from one area to another very often? A lot or not a lot? what can I say. Maybe. I'm not sure. I didn't know it I was just (UI) I, I know your just asking, you?re just doing your job, so you know your just asking (UI) I mean, I have to he, want to be honest with you, I mean you, you reCOgnize going to that camp was, was a mistake. You shouldn't you know, 'It fooled me sir, that?s the thing. I mean, you got fooled twice, though. Uh huh. (Nods head). This is the second time it happened. The second time I was thinking you know I was thinking they really gonna take me to Tabligh-Jamaat. Right. But you'd been to, on Tabligh Jamaat, (UI) before (UI). -Oyer here. Yeah. (UI) It's very common in Pakistan, Tabligh Jamaat so when you're ah, ah, people.go to Behboodi um, from, or you went from Pindi, to, to the camp. Is that where, tell me when, when you were'picked up, how that went. And? this, is, I have to be honest with you ah, Hamid, I mean I understand that, at ah, at various times um, ah, you know, it?s not the end of the world that you went to a camp. (HH nodding) I mean people do it for a lot of different reasons, (HH nodding).reasons because- they're curious, um, because they wonder, because, there's, a sense, because you're 22 years old, or 23 'years old, (HH nodding) sense of excitement in what happens there. Ah, because. Yeah. some of the boys go for fun like, you know, like 98 22_ '23_ 24 ?25 .26 27 28 60:50:15 LL: 18:49:20' GS: HH: GS: 18:50:19 HH: GS: HH: going. :Interview of Hamid Hayat. 6/4-5/05 you're saying they go for fun over there I'll say fun over there like that. Uh, huh. And, so there are all these reasons um, but, but, people don't usually go because they're fooled into I mean that's not that common. That's, I mean. people go, they know what they're doing because it's fairly common. Camps are in different places throughout Pakistan. And, SO-when people go for Tabligh Jamaat um, you know that's, it, it's a different thing. ,It has a different feeling about it you know, The guy who's coming to pick somebody up to go for Tabligh Jamaat (HH nodding) acts differently than the guy who comes to pick people up to take them to camp. So, I mean you had to have a feeling that was going onknow that you want to, to make us feel better that you got tricked into going, Uh, huh. But um, but don't do that because it doesn't, you know, it, it, it, it doesn't make sense. . Uh, huh. Um, it, it, it um, what makes sense is you went because you're, you know you're back home for a year and a half and you'wonder about End of Video Tape llof 4 Beginning of Video Tape-2 of 4 we got over thereknew that . . You knew you were going to camp? I knew that and I couldn't go from there. I knew that they gonna, you know.hold me and everything like that. You know catch me and everything like hold me and you know take me like that so I was thinking better thing is for me to stay you know just be quiet and don't say nothing that you're gonna go back anything like that. I got a chance (UI) 99 10 ll 60:50:15 GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 I Hamid, I, I, you know, I, I, I, I don't believe that and, and That's up to you guys. I know it is and I, and the reason is because you're 23 years old. - Uh, huh. And you've already been to same camp one time before this." And then next, all of a sudden you're in Pindi again and you're on the bus_on the way in the same place going back to the camp again. Um, and so it's um, I just want you to be honest with_us._ (HH nodding) I mean it doesn't effect how you can help us at all other than you're being honest with.us. (HH nodding) Do you see the difference? Uh, huh. - I I And so, so, you know please do that um. ah, because that, that_assures us (HH nodding) that we have a truthful relationship. - - Uh, huh. Um, and ah, um, and, and it's helpful. 0k. So I, you know, I mean we know, obviously (HH nodding) we know more about you then we, you-thought we did. Uh, huh. I know that you've said you know at times and, and, and lots of Muslims in the world do have issues with the United States right now. And that's 0k. And that's "you're free to have those kinds of issues. You're free (HH nOdding) to explore um, those thoughts. (HH nodding) It's, there's nothing wrong with that; That's part of what's important is we have to have that mindset and there are a lot of places in the world where um, you know the United States may not be doing things the way that even I (HH nodding) think they ought?a be doing them. So it's important we, I: I understand that. Um,-but, but that's all out there and that's part of why people go to camp. Um, because they feel that Islam is threatened.. (HH nodding) Right? mean it's true._ And, and, and so ah, you I know want, you know so, you know don't, (HH nodding) don't please tell me that you know you got, you know you're too smart and you're too old. . (UI) like ah, trying to say that I went on my own. 100 10 11 12 [13 _1:50:15 GS: GS: . HH: GS: IGS: GS: 18 :54:07 GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat. 6/4-5/05 Yeah.- Or, or in part, or because you're curious. Not because you wann'a go kill American soldiers. I'm not trying to say that. Yeah. I understand that. I mean, but because, but to say that you go tricked into going um, is just not, I mean that's, that's what peOple say. (HH nodding) I'll be honest with ya it's what everybody says who goes to camp. It's almost like what you're suppose to say. So, I didn't know what, what I was getting-into. (HH shaking head) That's ah, And it's, it's common and it's not true. Everybody knows that, That's the only ah, thing I can tell you guys (shaking head). I got (UI) second time like that. And you know,-when I came back, you know, I.was just gonna start working onrit but I couldn't cuz, you know, my Mom got sick. Force my Dad do something about it. Well it doesn't also go along with um, at times you know you, um, you know we are aware of um, you know back in Pakistan (HH nodding) you know, we have different people (HH nodding) telling us different things- Yeah. I underStand. And at times um, you know it's been ah, there's been an indication that y, you know, you or other members of your family have had you know, not been happy with the United States. Not been happy with America. Uh, huh. Um, that's um,-and that's very common. (HH nodding head) That's not, there's nothing illegal about that. But that doesn't um, that doesn't go well with, well I'm gonn'a.do something about.this.camp. .Um, the two don't match up. Do you see what I mean? (HH nodding) And so that, that, that's why I want you to be you know, just be um, you know I think we've, well you understand now that the camp'wa, was not a good idea. Uh,?huh. To go to camp. We, we're clear on that now. 101 60:50:15 -HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: 18:56:19 Interview of Hamid Uh,_huh. Um, you know you're back here. You're, you're just recently married. You?re older, you're wiser, (HH nodding) yOu know, your ideas, I assume you, you plan to have children some day. Um, and, and, and, and get into a stage of your life where you have ah, you know where you have good things. .Um, but, but, that's ah, that's the new, that's the new Hamid. (HH nodding) Um, it's not the, the Hamid that, that we, you know that, Yes, you guys talking about the.old Hamid. Yes. Like'that. Yeah. And, and, and, so I want the new Hamid to be honest with me about the old Hamid, ok? (HH nodding) And that, and the old Hamid had issues with the United States and had, I mean as do many good Muslims in the world. So don't, don't say it's not a bad thing. But, but what, what, what, what I need is honesty from the new Hamid. (HH nodding) Ok. So can you help me with that please? I mean you, and you, you've been so good thus far. It makes me, I, I feel better about our conversation but I wanna, I mean, I want you, you know be honest about the.entire part of it. Um, and then we can get into a place where, where the new Hamid can help us. Does that make sense? (U1) 0k. Um, Can you explain Yeah- No, I, I, what, what, what you, what you um, as I explained before I'm going to camp because you get tricked at age 23 twice doesn't make sense. (HH ?yawning) What makes sense especially, 23 twice? Er twen, no, because why, the second time when you're 22 years old, or 23 years old you got tricked, 18 what you're trying to tell me. That's not true. I know that's not true. That is ah, my story.' 102 60:50:15 GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: GS: IHH: GS: LL: GS: GS: GS: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 Well, that is your story. Yeah. Right now. That's my story That's your story but it doesn't mean it's true. (UI) Tell you guys. That's a story that's often told um, by lots of different people. And the reason I know it's not true is because you have um, (HH yawning) ah, you've had, you know the old Hamid. It's not true for the old Hamid. I mean I don't expect you today after we've had this conversation and you're here and you've gotten married to do the same thing all over again. Uh. huh. I mean that you, you, you know, you've, I'm sure you're starting to grow up in a different way. Uh,_huh. You're talkin' about working and getting a job and, and um, and having something better in life. Is that right?? - - . Yes. So um, but, but. but that person, I want that person to tell me the truth about the other, - About the old Hamid. AbOut the old Hamid. About like the second time? Yeah. - When And just be honest. It, it doesn't make sense Hamid. Ah, second You didn't get tricked. I mean you went there because you, you, you're curious or 103 50:50:15 HH: 18:57:21 GS: HH: GS: GS: GS: .HH: GS: HH: GS: GS: LL: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 What's curious mean sir? Curious, like you wann' a know what's going on there. You' re bored. . Oh, ah, you guys think I was getting bored at home? Like I was getting bored? You talked about that earlier anyway, it was Yeah. Ah, but ah, you know you know they told we were going to Jamaat. That's it. They told me that. And you know I was thinking we are going to go to Jamaat. I was thinking. But I never think like you know they gonn' a take us, Part of you' gott'a be thinking it might be camp too though. And you're curious. Little bit, you know. Almost little bit. Yeah. But when I got like a lot of it in were over there - then. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean so the little bit I mean, that's what I mean. And so you did have an inkling (HH nodding) in your mind that you were going to camp? Uh, huh. . Right. But, but they're telling you Jamaat, and that's probably something that people tell. That's what, that's kind of the code that people use before they go- to camp. ?Cause nobody goes and tells you know, Yeah. (HH yawning) You know ?cause, Let's go to camp. Yeah let's go to'camp. Everybody you know you, you say go to Jamaat and people know and your uncle knows. I mean your uncle knew. He been to camp before. He knew where where you were going. ?Right? He didn't know that, where I was going. Ah, when I came back I told him that._ 104 1060:50:15 GS: HH: GS: 18:58:33 LL: HH: LL: HH: LL: LL: GS: HH: GS: HH: I1G8: HH: GS: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4?5/05 You told him. Did he know you were going to a Jamaat? Ah, yeah with the Tabligh Jamaat. With the Tabligh Jamaat you mean, like the Tabligh Jamaat Right. Right. Yeah- Tabligh Jamaat. Yeah. He knew you were going (HH nodding) with the Tabligh Jamaat? . Yeah. He knew that. And you don't think that, that by you telling him that' you're going to with the Tabligh Jamaat that he figured ont, 0k he's not going to Tabligh Jamat. He's gOing to camp? Yeah. He didn't figured it out that.' He.didn't. He didn't figure out that. You know he was on the phone like I was telling you, like (UI) like this. 0k (UI). So you had a little bit of an idea Maybe like ah, ten percent in my mind. Ten percent, so you had ten percent idea I'm going to camp. And then you're thinking maybe I'm going to Tabligh Jamaat, Which . No. I couldn't make up my mind which way we were going to go. Which way you're going to go. .Yeah. BUC you?re going to go anyway and then um, you know and part of the reason you go, and even if that ten percent or that, you know if it's fifty?fifty you can't make up your mind you're still going to go because there's, you've been once before. You know that you go there 105 60:50:15 LL: GS: GS: GS: .19:00:05 GS: GS: GS GS: .GS: 'Gs: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/95 and there's gotta be curiosity too I mean you go there, so I mean, I just think it's fascinating, it's interesting to go to a camp to find out you know ah, and to see what's going on there. It's gotta be interesting right? It's an adventure? (HH smiles) A little bit. Adventure, I don?t think so (shaking head)? No, so, um, what other things ah, I?ve asked you this before but I'm gonn'a ask you again. What are the details um, you know, I mean ?cause there a million details, (HH nodding) our minds take Yeah. of details. Yeah, yeah. So part of it-is um, um, certainly you wish you hadn't gone to camp. Is that_fair to say? I didn't Yeah. You wish now you never went? Right-now? You're sorry that you went to_camp. Yeah. Of course. I Yeah. So, so you wann'a put that out of your mind. Uh, _huh. 'Right. What I'm trying to do is, is, you know although painful, get you to put it back in your mind and give 'us every little detail that you can. I gave you all the details. 0k. All right. So just, I'm just askin' you about if I forgot something Huh, uh. 106 ?ll.1660:50:15 GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: GS: HH: 19:01:05 Gs: HH: GS: HH: HH: .GS: LL: Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5/05 And, I didn't ask you. Uh, huh. Please fill it in for us. about the camp? Did you tell your dad all Ah, just when I went and come back. Does he Who knows more me or your dad? I think you guys know. We know, so we know more than your dad does (HH nodding} about the details (HH nodding) of the camp. Did you tell him you went for four months? - Ah, he thinks I went with Jamaat. That's what he thinks. Well what, what, what does he know now? Oh, he knows that I went with Jamaat, uh sorry about that. with the, uh.. Training. Yeah. And he found out when I came back. 0k, alright. 0k. Alright. Well, why don't you ah, drink some water, here. Do you have any more questions? Do ah you want me to open this for you (holding out candy bar). You_sure? Any chance of go home? Ah, let me see what's going on here. You guys have any more questions? I?m thinking, I'm thinkin' I got this ah, See ah, (U1anything like that? Yeah. Let me check on that. Yeah. He?ll check on leave the room) (No talking). 107 Interview of Hamid Hayat, 6/4-5105 60:50:15 HH: (sniffing noises) End of Video Tape 2 of 4 Beginning of Video Tape 3 of 4 00:37 (6/5/05) PA: Hamid before ah, before we start I just wanna let you know, ahh, you, you've seen this form before? . HH: Yes I (UI) . PA: It's the same form the, Advice of Rights. Do, do you . understand this? HH: Can you read it to me again? PA: Ok. I'll read it to you again. This is your Advice of Rights. Your rights before we ask you any questions you must understand your rights. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in court. You have the right to talk to a lawyer for advice before we ask you any questions. You have the right to have a lawyer with you during questioning.. If you can't afford a lawyer one will be appointed for you before any questioning if you wish. - HH: Thank you. PA: If you decide to answer questions now without a lawyer present you have the right to stop answering at any time. .Do you understand your rights? HH: Yeah I do (HH nodding) PA: 0k. Well if HH: (UI) - TH: Just initial at the bottom there. And we'll, we'll, go ahead and witness for ya HH: Where kind of move on BA: .You could, you can sign on top of there. HH: Where I TH: - You can initial and uh 108