having been sworn, was examlned and teszlfied as follow); EXAMINATICN BY AR. KENNELLY. lee your name, please? A Kennelly Saez. Spell A 75er Mr. Saez, let me just ask you a Couple of questlons just to escabhsh who you are. How old are you? A 23. And what 15 you! date of A Do you know your Soclal secur;ty A Yesv You understand that I'm a lawyer for a young man by the name of Alberto Almodovar? A Yesv And you understand that Mr. Almodovar was one of the Defendants 11') a Case where yau testifled 1n Court. a Couple of years ago? VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES 1,312! 44371025 ..Yes. Let me just ask you a couple of questions about how you came to be here today. First of all, the other person in the room with us besides the court reporter is a man by the name of John Eiermann. A (3 IV 0 A Yes. You Yes. How The Did No. You' you to do this? A You met him before? know that he is my investigator? did you get down to my office today? investigator brought me to the he force you to come down here? re down here without anybody forcing Right. There was a time in the past when you were a member of A A come here, Yes. Are No. Did force VICTORIA COURT a gang? you still a member of a gang? anybody from any gang tell you to you to come here? REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443-1025 .4-1 i- (I. (H .No. Have I promised you anything or given you anything to come down here? A No. In fact the only thing that we promised you is that we?re going to get you back home; is that right? A Right. Do you have any fears or concerns about being here talking to me today? A No. The questions I want to ask you have to do with some of the things that involved your testimony and your knowledge about the case that has to do with the shooting of two people. And the two people are Amy Merkes, M?e-r?k?e?s and why don't you give me the other name? A Jorge Rodriguez. Jorge is spelled J?o?r?g-e; is that right? A Yes. And as I understand it, they were shot on the of September 1994, almost four years ago; is that right? VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443?1025 11? You were a wi1ness to the shooting? A Yes. And what I want to ask you about has to do with your dealings with the police that followed the shooting. Did the police come out to the scene after the two people had gotten shot? A Yes, they came out to the scene. Did you jus: describe for me how the police treated you and your involvement? A They basically manhandled me. Pushed me around, grab me real tight and took me in the alley where I was surround by 12 or 15 police officers, all of them asking me the same questions, what happened and smacking me around. And shortly after that I found myself in the back of a police car. I couldn't talk to my family or couldn't talk to the people outside, couldn't see what was going on with my friends and Amy. And ultimately found myself in the police station. And what happened when you got to the police station? A Well, they put me in a room and left me there for five to six hours. VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443-1025 Fyou weren't unable to get out? (3 A No, I was locked. Then Miss Francisca Vega, who was another witness, she was living in the building and her sister, Elizabeth, came and they were in the same room with me. They stood there for a while and the police spoke with them, and then they left and I stood. So you stayed there even after the two young women left? A Right. What happened after that? A After that, they pulled me back out and sat me at the table and was asking me about the car and about what happened. They were asking me how I met Amy and who was Jorge and all this stuff and whether I was in a gang or not. Basically those simple questions and then they put me back in the room and I stayed there the rest of the night. You stayed there all night? A All night. What time did you leave. Do you remember? VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443?1025 the morning I would say about 9, (3.) in the morning. Did you get the impression during all of this that they thought that you might have had something to do with the shooting? A In a way, yes. And you didn?t have anything to do with it? A No. Now, when was the next meeting or encounter that you had with the police? A Three days later. And it might have been four days? A It might have been, give or take a couple of days. Jackie Grands comes over and knocks on my door, I come down. Let me stop you right there. Jackie Grande was another witness to the shooting? A Yes. She got shot in the shoulder. She comes and knocks on my door and tell me a police officers want to speak to us. And I told her fine. So I went downstairs and I met up with a Latino officer. Do you remember his name? VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443-1025 don?t remember his name. But he was Latino? 4 A :e was Latino. So in his hand well, p. he went to the car and then came back and in his hand he had two Polaroids and he was pointing. He had the pictures and he was pointing to the two guys like this. ?Are these the guys? Are these the guys?? In other words, he was pointing with the two fingers of one of his hands at both pictures at the same time? A Right. "Are these the guys? Are these the guys?" And I'm looking. I see Jackie. He had asked Jackie first and she said, "Yes, that is the guys", which struck me kind of strange because she was with me when he got there. So I figured, you know, she's sure, he's sure. Well, I said, "Yes. These are the guys." And after thatthe station. He tells me that we're going to go see a line up and that the two guys that I saw in the picture are going to be in this line up. And he also told me that I remember that he didn?t want anybody to know that he showed me those pictures. VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443-1025 things car? lights let me And the "he? that is telling you these is the same Latino police officer? A Yes. Did he have a marked car or an unmarked A He had a narc car. In other words, it didn?t have the on the top? A No. And I want to go back over that. But show you two pictures. One that I marked Exhibit 1 and one that I marked Exhibit 2. Are these the two people who you saw in those two Polaroids? person? A Yes. And in each Polaroid there was just one A Yes. And so let me just go back over this for a second. When he showed you the two pictures, the two Pol aroids, the first thing he did was show them to Jackie Grande; is that correct? A Yes. And it was outside of his car? A Yes, outside of his car. VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443?1025 2' 2: 5Yes. It was double parked. So when he was showing Jackie the piCtures, because that was right there and you could see him showing Jackie the pictures? ight. A And Jackie was saying those are the And she also said that she was sure that those were the guys? A Uh?huh. You have to say "yes" or ?no" for her? A Yes. And what you're saying is that it helped you to make sure that she was so sure and that the officer was so sure? A Yes. Before getting these impressions from Jackie and from the officer that they were sure these were the people, you weren't really sure, were you? A If he would have came by himself, I would have said don't know". VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443?1025 And would it be fair to say that the PC) reason for that is that it was only for a few seconds that you saw the shooter? A thhuh. Is that right? A Basically looking at the gun. Now, I want to ask you a couple of 1 questions before we go back to these pictures about what you saw on the night. Describe to me 5:5: in general when you what you saw when right before the shooting happened? A Right before the shooting happened? Right. A Well, we were all sitting out there, me Jackie Grande, Amy Merkes and Jorge Rodriguez were sitting out there. And this car passes by, sped by. I know I live on that street and I know how fast cars go by. This one came by pretty fast. And this one is right on Cortland Avenue? A On Cortland Avenue. It passed by and kept on going. Me and Jorge struck up a conversation about cars. He was telling me that he wanted a short body ?98. And then this car once again passes by I VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443-1025 . xn (only thing it was passing in a different irection. And then he te-_s me look, want 0. Ln just like that.? I told him, That was not a '98. z~ was a Delta", because I recognized the taillights on there. They?re fatter and thinner- So the car comes by and made a turn on Pulaski somewhere, because it came by again and it hit the alley. And then he goes, "No, that is a I said, "No, it is a Delta." And the reverse lights came on and then reversed out of the alley into Cortland Avenue like this to where we were standing. Into Cortland Avenre like this right where we were standing. In other words, it backed up to where you were? A It backed up to where we are. I said, "It is a Delta As we were talking, the guy goes up and says "What's up folks?" Now, when you say "the guy?, what does that mean? A The guy in the back seat. Okay. He says "What's up folks?? A Right. Where were you standing when he said that? VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443-1025 Va: . . .i .. was standing right off the front step of my fron: doorstep. And was his window rolled down or rolled up? A I: was halfway rolled down. I know that on Deltas the back window does not go all the way down. The back window? ine back window. Go ahead. 0 So I proceeded to walk towards the car. I figured I knew the guy. I walked towards the guy and I stopped at the garbage can, because he looked kind of suspicious to me, because I didn't recognize him off the back. The garbage can was right in the parkway there? A It was right next to a tree, right in front of the door. Just past the sidewalk. A Yes, and on the ground? How was this guy who said "What's up folks." How was he facing when you were walking towards him? How was his head. VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443-1025 ver like this(indicating) In other words, his head was sort of leaned forward? A Leaned forward and he was like looking at me like over the top of his eyelids. In other words, he was not looking at you straight on with his face? A No. You could mainly see the top part of his head and his eyes? A That is why I stopped, because I figured that it was someone I knew that would let me see their face. This guy was crouched over and so I stopped. I said, "Who's that?" Right when I said that, he pulled up and Pulled up a gun? A and began shooting. Now when he pulled up a gun, what did you do? A I froze for a second. And then I saw like a spark and all the air around me compressed and then I just went You dove for the ground? VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443?1025 r" a' FHJ when he pulled up that gun and you froze, what you were looking at was a gun, I assume? that point? A Uh?huh. Is that right? Yes. Because that gun was pointed at you at Right. Did a shot go past you? A couple of shots went past me. Did you get hit or nicked or anything? I got nicked in the ear. Your right ear? My right ear. So would it be fair to say that you never got a real good look at anything below this guy's eyes? A Yeah. Now, I want to go back to when you were shown these Polaroids. You've already described to VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443-1025 being shown the Polaroids outside tne 5.1) assume you got into the de:ective's car? A Yeah. And was Jackie also in the car? A Yes. Where were you sitting and her? A I don't really remember, but I think she was sitting in the front and I was sitting in the back? Did you talk on the way down there? A Yes, we were talking about what happened. And she was talking to me about what she was going to do with her life and stuff like that. And did she also tell you that she was sure that these were the guys? IA Yeah. Actually she was talking with the police officer. "Yeah, these are the guys. I remember. I was sitting there when I got shot. I looked and he kept shooting", and all this stuff. So I was sitting back there taking all this in and figured, well, she saw the guy. I mean I was on the floor. You know, she saw the guy and was sure, so I helped her. And you wanted to catch the guys who did VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443?1025 mg?- . (Q Now what happened when you got down the police station? A When I got tells us we?re going to We're going to have you guys can't see you, you about it. If they make frighten and this stuff out the guys. to the police station the cop put you in the line up. look at the line up- can see them. you any faces, TH: Don't worry don't be and we just want you to pick And I think you had told me that the Latino detective had told you that the two guys you saw in the Polaroids A Were in the line up. were in the line up. So are those the same guys whose pictures are in Exhibit 1 and 2? A Yes. Go ahead. A So once I looked at the line up, I recognized immediately the two guys I saw in the picture. And you recognized them from the picture, right? VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES Oi: (312) 443-1025 Yeah. I pointed them out, those two. And let me ius: ge: a pic:ure of a line up here. I marked it as Exhibit 3. Are those the guys that you saw in the line up? A Yes. And the two you picked out were -- why don't you put an on the two you picked out? Okaythe far left and then the uv third from the a right; is that correct? A Yes. The two guys with the white shirts on? A Yes. Let me just go back on a couple of things here. Jackie had come to your place with the police on that day that you saw the line up? A Yes. They came there together? A Yes. Do you know if she had seen pictures before she got there? A I?m not sure. Did you have the impression that she had already seen these Polaroids before? VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443?1025 CE b) U1 \1 (.had the impression that she had already seen them. And that was the way she was looking at them and the way she was talking to the officer? A Yes. Did the Latino officer have a partner with him or was he by himself? A He was by himself. When you were down at the police station to see the line up, was it just the same one officer or were there other officers? Do you remember? A I remember seeing him again, but I don't remember seeing the other officers. I might have spoke to one or two of the officer, but I don't remember. After you saw the line up, what happened after that? A. Me and Jackie Grande sat in this room and we were sitting there and a little while later some other guy comes in, supposedly another witness. I think he was a Sheriff or something. He lived down the street. The alley that they backed out from, his garage is in that alley. He came into the room and sat there with us also, and we were talking and he?s VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443~l?25 Ftelling me what happened. We are basically talking about what happened that night. And something was said about a pizza, but never gOt there and we went home- Do you know if this other guy, this other witness who was a Sheriff, do you know if he looked at the line up? A I don't know if he looked at the line up. Did anybody ever tell you that they had found the car? A. No. Well, I think I heard something about the car being found in DeMoines or something like that. Who did you hear that from? A I don?t remember. Do you think that you had heard it from the police or the State's Attorney. A I don?t remember. I know something about the car. It sat somewhere. I really didn't care about it. I figured the guys You're not sure one way or the other if the Latino officer told you that they had found the car? VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443?1025 09 don't think he was the one. I'm pretty sure he wasn?t the one. Did he tell you anything a- did that officer tell you anything about these two guys that you had seen the Polaroids of? A Yeah. He told me they were Dragons. And what did that mean to you? A That meant because there was a war so to speak going on between the gangs in my neighborhood and the Dragons. So that helped me out. That made it make a little more sense. In other words that helped you be sure about identifying these guys? A Yes. When did he tell you that? Do you remember? A When he was showing me the pictures. And he told me, he flipped the picture around and told me this guy's name is Joker, just like your. That was your street name? A Yes. And his name was Joker. And I said, "Wow, what a coincidence." And that made me make more sure. We got in the car and went to the station. VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443-1025 .- m; .4 . The other thin tna: I want to ask you about is something I'm going to put Exhibit 4 on. It says ?Affidavit?. You recognize this? A Yes. This is a document that you signed at the office of a lawyer named Melinda Powers? A Yes. Back in March of 1995? A Yes. I don't really need to ask you anything about this statement, but what I want to ask you about is what happened when the State's Attorneys found out about this statement. Why don't you tell me about that? A They were fired up, really. You mean upset? A Upset. They were, "Why are you changing your story" and basically they just were mad. They were just mad? A They were just mad. Did you have any other cases pending at the time? A Yes. I had a violation of probation. I was incarcerated in the Department of Corrections VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443-1025 L) d- when one of the attorney who was a male State?s Attorney? A tate?s Attorney came and spoke to me. They brought me out of prOtective custody. What division were you in? Do you remember? A The Protective Custody Division. First I was in Division 9 and then Protective Custody. The tate's Attorneys had you brought over to the State's Attorney's office? A Yes. Out of protective custody? A With the DOC outfit and everything. And he spoke to me and told me that the trial was right around the corner, the next day or something like that. And so I was tired of being in jail. In a way I was scared, because there was so many gang members in there and I was on the verge of getting out. I was prime choice beef for these guys- So I was like you can get me out of jail and I'll go and testify. So he said, "Okay. I'm not going to make you any promises. Most likely we'll get it out. Fine, we went and testified and broke down and that was about it. VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443?1025 Now, let me make elre I?m clear. You remember the trial in the case? A Yes. You remember going into the Court and testifying and there was a jury there and everything else? A Yes. You had already been let out at that point? A No. You were still in jail? A I was on the stand with my DOC. I wasn't at the trial, so I didn?t know that. And do you remember anything about the State's Attorney who you just described the conversation with? What do you remember about him? Was he young, old, tall, short? A He looked fairly young, middle 30's. He had a full head of hair. Unlike me? A Yeah. Do you remember if he was the same State's Attorney that questioned you when you were on VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443?1025 Aug was the same. He questioned :e wnen I was on the stand and he actually broke a promise that he was gave me. I asked told him not to show me any mangled up pictures of Amy and Jorge and he told me "Fine, I won't show you any pictures-? Shu: up and everything, and then he did. He did show me pictures and that is wnen everything just You were not happy about that? A No. And it is not pleasant to see those pictures, obviously? A No. Your understanding is that mos: likely they were going to be able to get you out of jail; is that right? A Uh-huh. You have to say "yes" or A Yes. And how long was it after that that you got out of jail? A I think the next day. And how did that happen that you got on: VICIORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443-102; jail? now did on find out you were ge:ting out? A i went back down to another courtrzom where he was the probation judge, and then he :old me that he was going to terminate my probation. This is the judge? A Yes, terminate my probation unsatisfactory. Do you remember who that judge was? A No. You think it was the next day that you went into court on your other case and you got let out on probation? A I wasn't on probation or nothing. So he just terminated it at that point? A Right. Are you sure it was the next day after you testified or could it have been a couple of days? A It was either that same day or the next day. It was very quick. Did you have the feeling that the State's Attorney had lived up to the promise he made to you? A Yes. And that was part of the reason why you VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443?1025 were willing to testify in the case: is that right? A Right. Q. Mr. Saez, I want you to identify your signature. I marked this as Exhibit 5. Do you recognize your signature there? A Yes. This is something you signed a little over two years ago; is that right? A Yes. And that was Mr. Eie_mann who had written this out? A Yes. He didn't force you to sign this or anything? A. No. This lady is going to type this up, because I want you to be able to look at it and sign it. So we're going to go off the record now. (Which were all the proceedings had in the above matter.) VICTORIA COURT REPORTING SERVICES (312) 443-1025