com-ammilzcomlEDTH CUJRT FUR STATE 0: IN AND FOR CF a= CITY OF 88?03-2784 Plaintiff, DEMTION CF TIM V. Siam J. WISEN, Def-want. Tim Hartman, being first duly sworn, states and declares as follows: i. I have reviewed the transcript of interview with Tim Hartman, dated Thursday, 11 May 1989, a true copy of which is amexed hereto as Exhibit A. Said transcript is, to the best of my knowledge aid belief, an accurate trans- cription of the interview on the date, ad to the best of my knowledge 31d bel ief all statements made by me in said interview are true and accurate. i made these statements voluntarily, was advised prior to said interview that the interview was being'taped and fully consented to that procedure. In addition to the matters set forth in the interview and in sumary DEZIJRATION CF TIM - i i Nhrriage of Hansen Cause Nm'ber: 37-3-09135-3 DAVID J. ORDELL uw . 705 sscowo AVENUE sun's 401 HOGE WASHINGTON 93104 IZOOI 62490130 tomqoacnncorow [Elf?thereof, lwould like to state as follows: It was clearly expressed on mnerous occasions by Lisa, both to an and to other menbers of her family, that the key point to her behavior was to cone aetween Melissa and Sig, and the rest of his family; to prevent them having a normal aid comfortable relationship with Melissa. Lisa indicated she would do Ithatever she could to keep any bond fran forming between Sig and Melissa. Swe urther indicated that she will continue battling as necessary to assure that a comfortable father-daughter relationship is not established between Melissa and Sig. An additional nutter which is not contained in the interview, was a lan which Lisa revealed to me regarding property in her possession whid'i awe rum Sig. This included mtertairment centre, other furniture purchased by Sig rid wedding gifts. Sue indicated that if she were forced to agree to give any these items back, or the Court were to order her to return items that, if ecessary, she would stage a burglary aid then claim the items were stolen aid ould not be returned. Swe indicated that u'ider no circunstances would Sig gt those iterrs back; and if her plan to feign a theft fell throug'i, she would make sure that they were broken or otherwise damaged or hidden 'where Sig could not find than; and thus avoid returning them to Sig in usable condition, or at all. I declare Lnder penalty of perjury, pursuant to the laws of the State of Washington, that the foregoing is md correct to the best of my knowledge. 3" le, We hington. sz/ 4? Dated this (Laiday OWISBS, at Seat Ar Maw/aw Hartman DWTIW CF TIM 2 Marriage of Hansen Cause Number: 37-3-09135?3 DAVID J. ORDELL ATTORNH AT LAW 705 SECOND AVENUE SUITE 401 HOGE BUILDING SEATTLE- WASHINGTON 93104 i206! 624.0130 Transcript of Interview with Tim Hartman Thursday, 05/11/89 12:45pm. nun-u? Interview process via dictaphone. Each person speaking will take microphone, and dictate. Tim is present, has been aivised that interview is being recorded, and agrees to have interview recorded. Tim will hold the micro- phone dJring his responses. Purpose of recording this interview is to insure that an accurate re- cord is n'ade of everything discussed dJring this meeting for the protection of Mr. l-hrtman, myself, and everyone else present. Present at this interview: TIM: DD: TIM: DD: TIM: David J. Ordel I, attorney for Sig Hansen Hartman, Sigrid Hansen Marcy Broder, Paralegal to David J. Ordell Tim, you mderstand this is being recorded in this process, and you agree to 93 along with this, rig?? Yeah, that's fine. Tim, as a preliminary matter, has anybody, Sig Hansen, his parents, Tom McMillan, the investigator, myself, ifs. Broder, or anyone else, promis- ed you anthing vhatsover, for coming in here, making this statement, or assisting in this case? None whatsoever. 'I'im, has anybody threatened you of anything adverse or negative if you would not make a statement or come in here 31d meet with me? Any threats at all? in fact i am here on my own free will, to give whatever testimony (which) may be meful to see that justice is carried out. 'Ihank You. Maw, Tim, i going to give you the microphone; actually hold it mast of the time. First cpestion: You are familiar with Lisa how did wu becme acquainted with her? Okay. Lisa and i met in high school. Sue was a junior, I was a senior, in 1983. We did not become close friends, but i knew of her. There was a lot of rumors and stories surromding her, even at that time. Approximately six years later, I heard of her through a close personal friend; a rrutuai friend, who told me that Lisa was marrying a TMECRIPTOF WITH TIM mam 11 May 1939 - 1 TIM: DD: gentlemen by the name of Sig Hansen, who was rich, aid that Lisa appar- ently was after his money; and was going to turn him in the end. The next thing i heard was that Lisa was pregnant and had a baby, 31d was already suing for divorce. The people i had talked to said . . . it was true about Lisa . . . we told you so . . . type of thing. (Do we cut this off?) No, we are going to keep this thing, even despite that. i don't want a break in the tape, Tim. If you don't mind, please identify the 'people' you were talking to. To be specific, that would be: Jean Anyway, a little time passed, i saw Lisa's brother at a party, said 'Hi' to him, said give Lisa my card, tell her to call me so i can say be friends, all this kind of stuff. And then I saw Lisa at a dance clLb. S1e was dancing, she was out on the town. So i approached her and talked to her, aid strud< up a conversation. She then yed by my side the whole evening at the club; this was MW. wn in Belleyue, South Beilevue. S1e gave me her ,thone e?r, called her. We began dating md seeing each other as friends. i was invited into her house (on) many occasions, whid't cane, participated in playtime with her child, Melissa, and with Lisa. We went on many dates, we went dancing, and we started to become serious to the point where i stayed the night. For the first and second was there, probany every nignt. So that we can put this in a time frame, when did you first start dat? ing her, and when did you first Spend the nig'it? i met her, I believe it was the end of Septmberi198_] [not audible], and then through October we dated casually, and we became closer and closer, then I invited her to a Halloween party at the Paramount Theatre. I rented a limusine, and introduced her to all my frierds. At that point, she began to pursue me, as well as we pursuing her. So we becane closer and closer throug?l October and Noven'ber. Nave-?tier we progressed to a relationship to where we were sleeping together every night at her place. Technically, was not living there, because my be- longings, furniture, clothing had not been moved in. Bit I stayed, us- ually using 31 overnig'it bag. DJring this whole relationship, Lisa had given me her side of the story that Sig was a drug anuser, an alcohol user, and that his parents were evil alcoholics, that they were tyrants, and that they were stretching out this divorce as long as they could so that the would an out of rmney. ?ihis was their biggest oom? plaint, that the Hansens had dragged this divorce on and on and on. Lisa told me througi all this to please be patient, that it would all be over soon, and then she could be by my side. See had planned on marrying me. She wanted to be my wife: that I would be her husband and raise h?r child, 81d support them in a household with a white picket fence, md all this kind of stuff. Which was fine. lwent along with WIPTOF INTERVIEN wrn-I TIM mm 11 May 1939 - 2 DD: TIM: it. As time progressed, lbegan to feel rranipulated upon, as i think a lot of other people in the situation were. even moved all my belong- ings into the house, Lisa's house in Mountlake Terrace . . . Just so l'm certain, when you stated September and October, that would be the year 1988, is that correct? And approximately, to keep it in time frame, when did you actually move your belongings into the house? That was in the last two weeks of December is when i moved in. At that time, Lisa's previous attorney. Mrs. l-blman, l-blly l-loln?an, recom- mended that I do wave in, and that we becune officially engaged. To Cb thisring, we were to announce in all the newspa- pers that would carry the announcement, that we were to be engaged, without a date, to be established after the divorce-type situation. So. as far as I knew, we were technically and officially engaged. So moved in the last two weeks of Decerrber (1988]. January [1989), lhad to attend a training camp for the company which I worked at at the time, so I was away for a week. When I came back, i-blly Holman I'ad withdrawn from the case. My mderstanding, was that Lisa was uncooperative with that counsel, and lied to her on several occasions. It was obvious that Holly did not want to represent a client that who would not take her advice or be honest with her. So, Lisa changed attorneys, and failed to tell the new attorneys that was residing with her. So, when she asked if it would be appropriate for me to move in,(whid1 was a lie; 1 already lived there.) she asked if it would be appropriate for me to wove in if that would help the case; they said no, he should not. At which time, the cal,led the newspapers, cancelled the engagement announcement, without telling me, had me nova out with notice. i came home on a Friday, ad I could not be there- that nigot. I had to leave 31d depart. (rice again, approximately when would this have been? I have a calendar up on the wall, if that would help you. It was the second week in January.' I'm not sure of the exact date. It had to be the second Friday in January. Mig1t have been the thirteenth or rraybe the Friday before. Anyway, I had to wave out. When left that evening, I found a friend; i have a git a lot of friends who i can turn to in times like this. I stayed with, I believe I stayed at my sisters' that Md?. The next morning Lisa changed the locks, changed her phone mnber. Sae even changed the lock where I had my furniture stored, so I couldn't get to it. Fran that point on, it was downhill. was kept out of the family situations. was kept out of her om re? lationship. She told rre she still wanted to marry me and still wanted to be with me, and that after the whole divorce settlement was over and everything, then, you know, we could get back together. I approached her many times to try to be there for her. See had me Spend the nig'it on a few occasions after that, through January and February (1989). The TRANSCRIPTOF WITH TIM l-lkR'lMAN 11 May 1939 - 3 DD: TIM: DJO: last that time we actually slept together, and had my sort of rela- tions was, I believe, the end of January 1989. Fran there, it was one lie after another. was kept away fron the family fmctions. was kept wt of it because, i believe they were fearful I my turn the evi- dence over, which I knew to be true. 'lhere's a lot of facts which could use against the being involved with the as close as I was throug'Iout this whole relationship. 'lhey knew the dan? ger of having an a part. Especially after she began to turn the tables and douse me, use me, and manipulate me. ?lhey knew that there mig'lt be the danger of recourse. Let me ask you aout the specifics first. You indicate you feel you have been used and abused. Just briefly, that conduct on their part, what did they do that constituted use or abuse of you, in your opinion? Well, the main thing i believe, was mnipulating rte/the relationship and having Lisa appear to be in need of me and of my strength, and of my support 31d my income, so that she could quit work. The whole idea here was, if she could qut her job, there would not be a need for day? care. If Lisa was at home all the time and was wpporting her aid the baby, then the baby would not have to go to Sig Hansen's dare while he was at hone, because she would supply fulltime chycare. That was the original plan. when this plan fell throug'l, of course, then I was asked to wave out/now, without any notice, without any warning. That's the evident thing. In any relationship there's a lot of heated emotional m'nents, which cause a lot of pain. I couldn't even begin to go into her mlicious actions and her hurtful attitude towards me on so many occasions. I'm sure Sig can attest to the same treatment, where it's a rollercoaster. Che rmment she loves you, she wants you; then the next mnent she kicks you out of her house and cusses at you like a sailor and is calling you names. It's just it was an emotional rol- lercoaster and nig-Itmare which ruined a part of my life. At that time I spent a lot of hours trying to keep my life gaing, keep our relation- ship going, at which time I suffered in my position at Seafirst Bank to the point where it affected my incone and I ended to losing my job. Since then i have taken an enourmous wt in pay to still remain working with mother comany. There's a whole lot of interractions in the re? lationship that went on to l'urt me. She lied to me on many occasions. I believe she exercised a lot of infidelity both in our relationship, and with Sig's, and with any other boyfriend she had. S1e's a chronic liar. Soe's neurotic in her lifestyle. I believe she's a hypochon- driac. All of her medicine cabinets are packed full of drugs. Any? thing from antibiotics to pain killers to Codeine to- Percosets. Everything's in there. I mean, if you ever had a headache, go see Lisa, she's got the drugs. I began to see that was being taken, as other people have been. may, now. I'm gaing to have you also, in your own wards, sumnarize TRANSCRIPTOF INTERVIEW WITH TIM 11 May 1989 - ll TIM: some of the behaviours towards to Sig that you thought were ms: highly innappropriate on her part. Ckay, like I said, i was told that Sig was violent, angry, volatile character who, in a irornent's notice, could explode into a rage and get physical; that he had many bar brawls and had a reputation for being a mug: 94y and a fighter. So that's the only perception I had of Sig. Of his family, that they were alcoholics, drunks, and terribly violent. When met Sig at the first visitation--. First, let we go back. I met Sig at a wedding reception (to Sig: I believe that was Christas' [spJ wedding, wasn't I met Sig there. He was calm, he was quiet, he didn't appear to want to fight anyone. He behaved as a gen- tleman and left. That was when was friends with Jeannie and involved with her at the time. When I met Sig months later at his first visita? tion with Melissa, he was kind, he was courteous, he was quet, he was very cooperative. it was nothing like the image I had of Sig. alt the warned me that he was a good actor and that he was violent when he was alone with Lisa and the dnild. But whenever anyone else was present, that he would be a very passive, kind individJal. So, it kind of went along with what they said. Then I witnessed sanething that confused me, and caused me to really begin to? doubt the situation, which is when my first seeds of doubt began to cause me, over long pro? cess, to be here at this desk today. Lisa was very vicious with Sig. Upon his very entrance, I believe she alled him a pig-face. Called him a slime-ball many, nany times. Said he was an asshole, and words I don't even choose to repeat with a lady in this roan. Sig's reaction was not of violence or anger or even negative comments badt. He sinply smiled and didn't make a cement. He seened to be very ant at handling Melissa in a fatherly way. He was careful with her. He was cautious, he protected her and cared for her while she was in his hands. 'lhe whole time he was there, Lisa tormented him, calling him names. Giving him ridiculous contends, like . . . take your shoes off . . . and . . . don't sit on my much . . . and . . . don't touch Melissa . . . and all these different things. His reaction was always that of kindness. 'lhis repeated in the next few visitations that witnes- sed. Sig was always a gentleman md Lisa was just as vicious as she could be. (hoe again, just to focus in on time frame. When did this occur? I think you would have to refer to your own visitation dates. Sig would know which ones 1 was there at. Was it before or after you were living with her, or during that time? If remenber, it was before that time [to Sig: do you rem-bar what dates those were? Your visitations when you came back?) macaw-r01: INTERVIEN w111-1 111.1 mam 11 May 1989 - 5 SIG: TIM: DJO: TIM: DJO: SIG: 2) DD: TIM: DJO: TIM: hhen I cane back I had a call from Dutchl?) that there were warrants for my arrest. Were you living with her when I got my warrants? was staying with her. I don't think i had my stuff rmved in at that time, when you called from Dutch Harbour. You had rmved In? I had not moved my stuff in, but I was staying there every nig?it. Ck, that's fine. That was before G1ristmas wasn't it? Next, was there, during these visitations, did you hear Lisa rrake any statements to Sig about the d'iild not being his, or not giving him even the courtesy of taking photographs, or anything of that sort. Yeah. Sig brought a camera one time and she did not allow him. She violently tried to get the were away md threatened to break it. Said he wasn't going to take any pictures because the baby was not even his. 916 alleged runny times many other people that the baby, was in fact, saneone named 'Bill's baby, which i know is not true. This was a constant torment she threw at him. The furniture was not his, the entertairment center was not his and the baby was not his, and . . . what are you doing herei?; trying to rrake him feel alienated. At Christmas time he broug'lt a video were and she refused to let him take movies. said the baby wasn't his, 31d that she did not want the baby viewed by any of those people which, whatever nane she called them at that time. Sig and i then went into the other roan. calmed Lisa dawn, and Sig took some videos at Christmas time, of Melissa, to show his parents. Pardon? Yeah, I took the video, so that the Hansen's could have something to look at. it was short though, and Lisa was violently opposed to it. We were in big fight all night after Sig left because of that. She was mad that cooperated. Anytime I showed any kindness or cooperation .to Sig, I heard about it later. It was a living hell. Owe time she made me leave the muse, she was so mad. Ste threw me out of her house. Was there any other part dJring the visitations, was there any problems with my merrbers of Lisa's family, or anything that you noticed about their relation or reaction to Sig? Again, in all honesty, there was a lot of snickering and giggling and faces being between Marcy, Lisa's sister and Jean, Lisa's mother. and Lisa herself. But, to the best of my recollection, they did not inter- fere andlor contribute to the viciousness that Lisa was doing. In fact, a couple times, I renenber Jean's [This name stated. Shel-I'd TRABECRIPTOF INTERVIEN WITH TIM mew 11 May 1989 DJO: TIM: DD: DJO: TIM: read: Jean, Lisa's [rather] mother telling Lisa to please not call him names and please not do that, after laUghing at the jokes. Was there, were you present at any time when Sig rrade a telephone call to Lisa from Alaska? Yeah. One nig-lt when I was staying there, it was fairly late in the evening. There was a phone call and Lisa answered the phone. Sne be- came very anotional. S1e started shaking and screamed into the mane "you're never supposed to call me here . . . I believe she said . . . I'm going to have you arrested. You're in tere now. Don't ever call me again . . . and she slammed the mono down. i think they mig1t have talked for, I don't remerrber how long, it couldn't have been more than a minute. Side of tape: may, we just turned the tape over. I think we got most of it. I've been looking at the tape; we may missed a minute or two. Let me go on. Was there ever anytime that Lisa discussed to you or in your presence, strategies to adversely affect Sig's relationship with Mel issa. Definitely. The first thing, which cast sane doubt in my mind about her integrity was upon the very onset of cur relationship . . . my first interractlons with Melissa, which were right away. Sae told me that if myone asked, whether it was friend or foe, that she was sup- posed to be breast feeding. I believe she had this cleared with her doctor, who was gaing to cooperate as well. See told r'ne that . . . no matter who says what, whether it was family or friends; everyone believes that I am breast feeding." an she was not breast feeding. The baby Lsed a soy formula. The baby has been on fon-nula since birth. S1e never breast-fed once. S1e told an that. Sae told me specifically that it was a lie so that the baby could not be allowed to be away from Lisa too long of a period. 'lhis would prohibit Sig fro-n being able to see her for a long period of time. She said the reason for the bottles, if anyone asks, was to tide her [the baby] over until she could have her mother's milk. Was there my other things that she did to adversely affect Sig's rela- tionship with Mel issa? Yeah. i rewarrber, while Sig was in Alaska, we were preparing for him to cone back, they were desperately trying to find ways to stop his visitation altogether, whether it be to have him arrested, whether it be?to whatever they could. Before visitation, Lisa would not let the baby sleep. S1e would keep the baby Lp as late as possible the nig'it before, she did not stick to the sleep times and, aid then the first macaw-res WITH TIM 11 May 1939 - 7 TIM: day of the visitation, when it was to be in the evening, un, 1 believe that they interrupted her feeding schedule so that she would be tired and irritable; at whici'i time I witnessed Sig caning over to the visita- tion, Lisa said on, on the visitations that lwas there, Lisa plainly said, "Sig, you can't see her tonigot, the baby's sick." And then Lisa's ?other said, "Well, shelittle bit, so Sig came in aid the baby was, of course, tired 31d probably hungry and was fussy, so Sig only had a few minutes each time and the baby would just wanna pass out from exhaustion or was crying and irritable and, 31d then Lisa would say, "See, she hates you. She looks at your face and screams and wants her anther." Well, the fmny thing was that Lisa couldn't get her to stop crying either, so it was, that was a farce. Were you ever present at any conferences, family conferences, where there were discussions of getting Sig in trouble with the law? Yeah, they got so desperate one time that they had an idea, I'm not sure which of Lisa's brothers they were gonna use, but one of the brothers, in fact Lisa one time, let me back up a little, Lisa one time asked me if I could hit her in the face. I thought that was a strange request for saneone that cared about her. Sie said that she wanted to have Sig arrested for assault and for beating her and that the only way they could prove that was to have bruises on her face. I, of course, refused and they said that they were going to rave one of the brothers, I'm not sure if it was gonna be Mikey or Ridtey . . . but someone was supposed to pound on her and give her bruises and cuts on the day of Sig's visitation so that when he came they would imnediately call the police to say that he had attacked her. Ludtily, this progran was abandoned when they realized all the pitfalls that they could exper- ience; one of which i was not gonna cooperate in. Un,? un, would there be other discussions, would it be a oommn, would it be a cannon occurrence to discuss Sig and how to keep Sig out of Melissa?s life around the home? Yeah i was, I was invited over to Sunday dinners and to family gather- ings which there were a lot of. It's a tig-It, it's a tight little unit; cm, and the only, the mly conversation that we ever touched on in family gatherings was Sig and his family and the Hansens and how terrible they are for dragging this out and how evil they were md how they would die and rmve Melissa out of the State and out of the country before they would ever let Sig and his family have her. That was con- stantly the ongoing circle of conversation. U11. Lisa's whole life is a soap opera and I've, and l've constantly seen her create destruction around her over the past six months, nine rronths. S1e creates destruc- tion and trauua and drama around her so that she can be the centre of everyone's miverse and gt all the pity and the attention. i think it's very sick and I believe she's emtionally unstable and disturbed WIPTOF INTERVIEW WITH TIM 11 May 1989 - a DJO: TIM: because once one iten is solved, she'll intentionally and maliciously create another so that she'll have mother drana to live through. Could anyone in the family seem to control Lisa or bring her back into line? I believe, i believe Lisa was the centre of the whole circle. I believe the time she was a child she was probably raised to be a princess and told she was better than everyone and that no one would ever be good enough for her and that she'd better rrarry rich and live on an island sanewhere as a princess. I believe Lisa actually was brainwashed a1d believes this now to this day and so she's the one who's behind the lies and the, and the deception going tn ad the slan- der, but i think the kingpin of the legal activities ad the one who controls all the, the legal aspects and markings would be her oldest brother, Ronnie, who she said many times is her favorite brother. Ron- nie just graduated top of the class at Cornell from what she told me. For all I know, he hasn't even graduated yet. Supposedly Ronnie is gonna be a top notch attorney and he's the one who?s been shopping for attorneys and everytime one of Lisa's attorneys quts on her, Ronnie finds another one who?s supposed to be better than the last. U11, the funny thing is, Lisa lied to Ronnie for four nonths in cur relationship, told him that he, told Ronnie that she'd never slept with anyone tut Sig. Later Ronnie found out the hard way that there was a paternal issue and a paternal suit trying to find "Bill" as the father, ?hid-1 means they slept together, so uh, these people don't even trust each other. 'lhey lie to each other, they deceive each other, they're, I mean I believe they?re all, I believe they all live a constant lie and deceit. U11, did, was there ever my discussion about the naming of Melissa, why they used the name rather than Hansen? i don't know if you would have been part of that or not. Many times Lisa said that L11, that Melissa would never be raised as a Hansen and she would never carry the nane "Hansen" and if Lisa could help it, there would never be any involvement with the Hansen family and she was determined that the none would be without even Hansen being part of the name, and they, I believe Mr. Ordeil's recon- menolation was that, if nothing else, that the name would be slash Hansen". Lisa disagreed with this and said, "'lhey can her what- ever they want, but her birth certificate says and all her life she's gonna go by because in this state, she said some- thing like in this state you can use whatever name that you want. said she?ll be an U1, anything, I'll just leave a final question, just to be sort of open ended, is there anything else you can think of that might be helpful or TRANSCRIPT 0F WITH TIM reams 11 May 1939 9 relevant that you cbserved in this situation? TIM: I could, I could talk for, i could talk for eignt hours straight about, about the lies that Lisa has lived in, about the lies to her attorney, Holman, the present lies that she tells Stuart Scarff who believes Lisa's testimony to be true, an, i could go on for hours about her lies to the police and to me and her infidelity and that, I've found letters in her dresser one time, found letters in her dresser that were dated, I believe about April of '87, er, anyone. i found letters chted back during a time when Lisa and Sig were in a relationship, i can't exactly recall the dates, but it was amazing to me. I found these letters one day while Lisa was away. These were love letters from three different individuals in California, all dated about the same months. in other words, she was leading three on, at time each one stating they loved her, that they wanted to marry her, that they renenber the kiss- ing and they rammer the late nights and her spending the night, and they reset-her dancing and . . . i could not bei ieve she was so success? ful in leading three different on in another state, having them all on the string, believing that someday they could be together. ?nd the one that sticks out the mast is Steve Kunauerispil. Steve Kunauer haunted our relationship ever since the beginning. He's dulled nany late nig'Its, un, anytime he called she denied it and said it was a friend, said it was a brother, and every phone call that ever rang in that apartment when was there, she took it in the other room so that i would not hear. It was a constant lie that I could not live with and it bothered me extremely. Che time I caugtt her talking to a guy we said that he had rtede plans for them on a certain date, called her sweetie. She said she couldn't talk rignt now because soneone was here but she'd call him back as soon as she was free and she knew i listened to that conversation because i let her know that caught her, at which time she called me a lot of nanes, she started calling me "pig?face" and ?slime-ball? and said get out of her house, she could-Ht believe that i had the, had the nerve to listen on a conversation. Well I couldn't believe she had the nerve to lie to me after all I had done for her. Ch, she also told me that, she told me that Sig and her had only had one sexual encounter and that she was drunk and that he nan- handled her, pretty much took advantage of her and this was the time she got pregtant. i believe it was within a two week period she was trying to get comfort her friend, Bill, this is her story, she was trying to gt comfort from her long?standing friend, Bill, 31d somehow she got drunk and they were both confused and they slept together too. Um, which to me is a joke (laugh). Ch, she also told that, that she slept with, un, with Bob Cnaffee, two to three times, she couldn't re- men-ber which, but that she told me that Sig never knew that she slept with anyone else. She thought that was cute though, that she pulled one- over on him and she remerbered, or I remember her telling me speci? fically that she slept with Bob, that he was her first 31d then she told me that she only, the only other person she ever slept with was WIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH TIM 11 May 1939 - Io Sig. Well then three or four months later, she, she told me that she also slept with Bill; and then a little while, a little while later, I read these letters from California and heard the phone cells, so at this point, I'd say she probably can't even rene-nber all of the people she slept with. DJO: Gt, one, uh well, couple things. First, with regard to un, uh, this thing. Let me get an address for you if I could. DJO: 11910 Overlake Drive, Everett 98208. Ck, now, what's, ok, some, some- thing occurred, as I understand and I'll, I'll have you g3 throug?l this, you talked to initially got talking to Tom McMillan, former FBI agent who is private investigator now, doing the investigation. 'lhen uh, you, you, talked to Stuart Scarff in the middle of the thing, 31d now you're meeting with me. What, what's been going on? Has there been pressure brought on you by Lisa, what's that's happening? TIM: [Sign]. N3, I've, I've tried, over the last few months, I've tried to my best to stay on a good relationship with Lisa and at least be a friend to her because I, I still was taken in by her beauty and by her lies md by just her overall person. I tried and tried and tried, but I also warned her not to screw me over and take advantage of me because i would not take it a-id she swore she wouldn't. Well, she did. And after constant lies to me, after constant hurt, after invit- ing me over and then at the door she'd turn me away, after calling me and telling me to come over. At the time i had a car phone and I?d call from outside her apartment after I drove twenty minutes to see her and she'd turn me away. ?nd I don't know what the reasons were, but it was just a constant knife turning in my stomach, which made me realize she was not the person she said she was and she was deceiving ma aid using me. in the meantime, she has kept no on good terms, I believe that she has kept me on gaod terms so that I would not get together with Mr. Ordell md the Hansen party and tell what I know, because I know everything being involved with her. To this point, she believes I still an on her side. She is keeping me at bay, keeping me at peace with her so that I will not turn on her mtii this is over, at which time I am sure lwiil be duped, which is fine with me. U11, she told me two months ago that Tom McMillan, a private investigator, former FBI agent, had been interviewing her past friends 31d relationships, and that sooner or later he would catch Lp to me. She was very afraid of this. S?s-1e was afraid that I would get together with him and that I would tell him all of these things that could destroy her. She con- stantly pleaded with me, begged me to stay with her, to stay in the re- lationship, to not hurt her, to not say anything that might jeopardize her case with Melissa. Finally, it took him long enough, two later, Jeannie called me, Gina Hochweldt [spi] I mentioned before, INTERVIEW TIM mam?: 11 May 1939 - 11 DJO: TIM: DJO: called me and said Lh, that Tom McMillan had spoken with her and could she refer him to me. I said "yes, by all mans. Have him call rte, here's my rurber. I'll wait for his call." Jeannier, er, mis, he called me back and said he wanted to talk to me. i said, "Cone rig1t down whenever you can. l'll meet with you over lunch." l-b came and we talked for an hour and a half. I believe that was Thursday or Friday. it might have been Friday, l'd have, l'd lave to look at my calendar. We spent, pardon? Of last week. We spent about 31 hour ad a half in the parking lot on my lunch hour, an, and told him about everything that I could recall, then he took shorthand notes and every? thing else. I told him that I wanted to speak with the Hansens. I told him that I wanted to talk to Sig. I told him Blease let the Hansens know I'm sorry, I ap, I la, I wanted him to specifically tell the Hansens that apologize for my actions if I treated them rude aid if I treated them rude and if I was on her side. I know that they would have viewed we as a bad person, whatever. Lh, he asked if I could have a report ready on Monday nig'lt for him, that he could pidt up and get all the facts a1d dates. Lin, when he dolled I said, I said, no this point I think I wanna work, I want to talk with the Hansens. Maw, in my mind, I knew it was a wetter of time before Lisa knew I had talked to Tan McMillan because she knew everything that goes on. So I called Lisa and what I told her specifically was, "Lisa, I thought you said your, this detective of the Hansens was not out on the case any longer." And then Lisa got all quet ad I said, "He just called me aid tried to get at interview, but I refused." So to this moment Lisa believes that I refused the interview ad un, she becane very upset and get on the phone a1d called her attorney md told him she, as usual, she blew everything out of proportion, turned in to a big soap opera, started crying, had to leave work, they wanted to send her lune, all this stuff, and her attorney called me, Stuart Scarff, and he was very Lpset. He said, "Tell rte what happened. Tell me what you said." I said, 'Mr. Scarff, he attempted to reach me and talk to me, but I refused to give him any information." That was the extent of what I said, and like I said before, the only reason I said anything to Lisa, was to keep in a good terms and a good relationship. I believe as long as they believe I'm on her side, lwill be able to still see the plans and the schenes 31d I'll be able to hear the information they're using against the Hansens. I'm ganna conclude this. I appreciate your coming in on this, uh mat? ter. Gt, Lh, we're back on the, on the tape. Uh, it's gunna be a little hard getting out a detailed declaration at this time and putting all this information down . . . You wanna, wanna, uh consolidate it, put it down into sane sort of sta- tement, l'll, l'd gladly come down and . . . Ck, let me do this, l'm, uh, yeah, uh, the, in addition to an attorney, TRANSCRIPT OF Wl?l?H HARM 11 May 1939 - 12 DJO: TIM: I'm a notary, md therefore i an aJthorized to administer oaths. Let me cb this then, if you would. I'll place you Lnder oath at this point in time, while on the tape. I'll love you indicate that the statements you made were all truthful 31d accurate, and I will 93 ahead a1d I'll have it transcribed, you can review it and sign it in final draft form. So, un, do you, by the way, do you 9) by the name "Timthy"Tim", but my legal name's "Timthy" . . . All rlg'lt. Do you, Timothy Hartman, hereby swear or affirm that all of the statements you have nede herein in this interview are true md ac? curate to the best of your knowledge and belief? Yes, definitely, everything that l've said is true and everything you said is true. DATED mistay of June 1989. TI Mir-mm Ki TRANSCRIPTOF mama? Wl'll-l TIM mam 11 Nhy 1939 - 13