UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS CORPUS CHRISTI DIVISION MARC VEASEY, ET AL., Plaintiffs, vs. RICK PERRY, ET AL., Defendants. ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) CASE NO: 2:13-CV-00193 CIVIL Corpus Christi, Texas Wednesday, September 10, 2014 (7:59 a.m. to 12:00 p.m.) (1:04 p.m. to 5:50 p.m.) BENCH TRIAL - DAY 7 BEFORE THE HONORABLE NELVA GONZALES RAMOS, UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE Appearances: See Next Page Court Recorder: Genay Rogan / Lori Cayce Clerk: Brandy Cortez Court Security Officer: Adrian Perez Transcriber: Exceptional Reporting Services, Inc. P.O. Box 18668 Corpus Christi, TX 78480-8668 361 949-2988 Proceedings recorded by electronic sound recording; transcript produced by transcription service. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 2 APPEARANCES FOR: Plaintiffs: CHAD W. DUNN, ESQ. KEMBEL SCOTT BRAZIL, ESQ. Brazil and Dunn 4201 Cypress Creek Parkway, Suite 530 Houston, TX 77068 ARMAND DERFNER, ESQ. P.O. Box 600 Charleston, SC 29402 J. GERALD HEBERT, ESQ. Attorney at Law 191 Somervelle Street #405 Alexandria, VA 22304 NEIL G. BARON, ESQ. 914 FM 517 Rd. W, Suite 242 Dickinson, TX 77539 EMMA P. SIMSON, ESQ. Campaign Legal Center 215 E. Street NE Washington, DC 20002 Mexican American Legislative Caucus, et al.: EZRA D. ROSENBERG, ESQ. Dechert, LLP 902 Carnegie Center, Suite 500 Princeton, NJ 08540-6531 MARK A. POSNER, ESQ. AMY L. RUDD, ESQ. GARY BLEDSOE, ESQ. SONIA K. GILL, ESQ. ERANDI ZAMORA, ESQ. Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights 1401 New York Ave. NW, Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 DANIEL G. COVICH, ESQ. 802 N. Carancahua, Suite 2100 Corpus Christi, TX 78401 EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 3 APPEARANCES FOR: (CONTINUED) Mexican American Legislative Caucus, et al.: MYRNA PEREZ, ESQ. VISHAL AGRAHARKAR, ESQ. JENNIFER CLARK, ESQ. Brennan Center for Justice 161 Avenue of the Americas 12th Floor New York, NY 10013 United States of America: RICHARD DELLHEIM, ESQ. ELIZABETH S. WESTFALL, ESQ. DANIEL FREEMAN, ESQ. ANNA BALDWIN, ESQ. AVNER SHAPIRO, ESQ. MEREDITH BELL-PLATTS, ESQ. JOHN SMITH, ESQ. PAXTON WARNER, ESQ. BRADLEY HEARD, ESQ. ROBERT BERMAN, ESQ. U.S. Department of Justice 950 Pennsylvania Ave. NW Washington, DC 20530 BRUCE I. GEAR, ESQ. Department of Justice 1800 G Street NW Washington, DC 20006 Ortiz Plaintiffs, et al.: JOSE GARZA, ESQ. 7414 Robin Rest Dr. San Antonio, TX 78209 ROBERT W. DOGGETT, ESQ. Texas Rio Grande Legal Aid, Inc. 4920 North IH 35 Austin, TX 78751 MARINDA VAN DALEN, ESQ. Texas RioGrande Legal Aid, Inc. 531 E. St. Francis Brownsville, TX 78520 EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 4 APPEARANCES FOR: (CONTINUED) Texas League of Young Voters Education Fund: RYAN HAYGOOD, ESQ. NATASHA KORGAONKAR, ESQ. DEUEL ROSS, ESQ. LEAH ADEN, ESQ. NAACP Legal Def. and Educational Fund 40 Rector St., 5th Floor New York, NY 10006 DANIELLE CONLEY, ESQ. KELLY DUNBAR, ESQ. M. HASAN ALI, ESQ. LYNN EISENBERG, ESQ. JONATHAN E. PAIKIN, ESQ. RICHARD F. SHORDT, ESQ. SONYA LEBSACK, ESQ. TANIA C. FARANSSO, ESQ. Wilmer Cutler Pickering, et al. 1875 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20006 Texas Association of Hispanic County Judges and County Commissioners: ROLANDO L. RIOS, ESQ. 115 E. Travis Suite 1654 San Antonio, TX 78205 PRESTON HENRICHSON, ESQ. 222 W. Cano Edinburg, TX 78539 State of Texas: JOHN BARRET SCOTT, ESQ. Deputy Attorney General for Civil Litigation Office of the Attorney General P.O. Box 12548 Austin, TX 78711 JOHN REED CLAY, JR., ESQ. LINDSEY E. WOLF, ESQ. JENNIFER ROSCETTI, ESQ. G. DAVID WHITLEY, ESQ. STEPHEN L. TATUM, JR., ESQ. STEPHEN R. KEISTER, ESQ. Office of the Attorney General P.O. Box 12548 MC001 Austin, TX 78711 EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 5 APPEARANCES FOR: (CONTINUED) State of Texas: BEN A. DONNELL, ESQ. Donnell Abernethy Kieschnick 555 N. Carancahua, Suite 400 Corpus Christi, TX 78401 WHITNEY DEASON, ESQ. JOHN CRAWFORD, ESQ. Non-Party Senators & Non-Party Representatives: ARTHUR D’ANDREA, ESQ. Office of the Attorney General 209 W. 14th Street, 7th Floor Austin, TX 78701 DAVID TALBOT, ESQ. JAMES B. ECCLES, ESQ. Office of the AG of Texas 300 W. 15th Street, 11th Floor Austin, TX 78701 ALICE LONDON, ESQ. Bishop London Brophy & Dodds 3701 Bee Cave Rd., Suite 200 Austin, TX 78746 EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 6 1 INDEX 2 DEFENDANTS' WITNESSES 3 DAVID DEWHURST 4 (VIA DEPO) 5 M.V. HOOD, III 6 BY MR. SCOTT 7 BY MR. DELLHEIM 8 BY MR. ROSENBERG 211 9 BY MR. DUNN 238 10 11 12 DAN PATRICK DIRECT 12 CROSS 48 79 121/191 245 288 (VIA DEPO) BRIAN KEITH INGRAM 13 BY MR. SCOTT 14 BY MS. WESTFALL 336 15 BY MR. DUNBAR 371 16 BY MR. BRAZIL 383 17 18 REDIRECT TROY FRASER 307 397 403 (VIA DEPO) 19 20 21 EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC RECROSS 7 1 Corpus Christi, Texas; Wednesday, September 10, 2014; 7:59 a.m. 2 (Call to Order) 3 THE COURT: Good morning. 4 MR. ROSENBERG: Good morning, your Honor. Ezra 5 Rosenberg. 6 think the success that we had in our discussions, subject to 7 your approval, of course, and particularly as to a crucial 8 aspect of what we have agreed to. 9 I wanted to report on not just the progress, but I Number one, the plaintiffs will not -- will withdraw 10 their objection to defendants' amended responses to the 11 deposition (indiscernible) questions that were filed yesterday. 12 Number two -- and, as a result of -- a little 13 preface. 14 yesterday, there was a kind of a domino effect on some, and as 15 Mr. Derfner will add, not all of the experts. 16 there has to be some new reports submitted, but the reports are 17 going to be limited to the effect of the change. 18 Tuesday, close of business, Dr. Ansolabehere and Dr. Webster 19 will file their amended reports limited strictly to the 20 recalculation of the data as a result of the recategorization 21 of the surrender data and as a result of the DWQ. 22 business on Wednesday, Dr. Bazelon will do the same; and that's 23 Wednesday next. 24 do the same; and that's Thursday next. 25 As a result of those -- that amendment, as I said As a result, So, by next By close of By close of business Thursday, Dr. Hood will The parties have also agreed, subject to your Honor's EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 8 1 approval, that the supplementation to the findings of fact and 2 conclusions of law will be filed no later than midnight of 3 Thursday next. 4 certainly subject to your Honor's schedule -- because of the 5 prospect of the changes in some of the reports, the parties 6 have agreed that they really can't close just yet and would 7 ask, if your Honor is available to give us those three hours on 8 Monday, the 22nd, a week from Monday, we would all come back to 9 Corpus Christi and present our closing arguments. 10 And, finally -- and this is the one that's Another part of this, of course, is that neither 11 party will be impeaching or -- the credibility or criticizing 12 the other party for relying on the prior calculations. 13 14 THE COURT: So, the response, that DPS response, is that what went to that 183,000 -- 15 MR. ROSENBERG: 16 THE COURT: 17 MR. DERFNER: 18 THE COURT: 19 MR. DERFNER: That's correct, your Honor. Right. And -Let me just say this, your Honor. Okay. For that reason, the -- the changes 20 that have to be made, while necessary, are not earth shaking, 21 and they don't fundamentally change the case. 22 heard a number of numbers about no matches ranging from the 23 500,000 to the 700,000 number. 24 from Dr. Ansolabehere is still going to be in that range, and 25 it's going to be north of the 619,000 number that's been Your Honor's The new number, for example, EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 9 1 bandied about that Mr. Scott has referred to. 2 change -- these are changes that need to be taken account of, 3 but they don't fundamentally change the basic numbers. 4 move them some, but they won't be a big change. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 What's the timeframe here? So, it's a They I'm okay with that. I know we have the 7 November elections; we have, I guess, early voting starting 8 mid-October. 9 MR. ROSENBERG: 10 MS. SPEAKER: 11 MR. SCOTT: 12 I believe it was October 20th. Twentieth or 21st, yeah. We've already received applications for -- 13 MS. SPEAKER: 14 MR. SCOTT: Twentieth. -- the early -- I mean the absentee 15 ballots, and then the ones that will be -- the rest of them 16 will be -- I think start being sent out, I think, next week. 17 And I will confirm that. 18 here. 19 We've got the director of elections THE COURT: But for the mail-in ballots that's kind 21 MR. SCOTT: Yes. 22 THE COURT: -- separate (indiscernible). 23 MR. SCOTT: Yes. 24 MR. DONNELL: 25 THE COURT: 20 of -- Yes. It's already in progress. Okay. And the -- EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 10 1 MR. SCOTT: I'll get you the early voting dates. 2 THE COURT: The findings of fact -- the amended or 3 the supplemental, I'm not sure what you all are going to be 4 providing, due a week from tomorrow, I guess -- 5 MR. ROSENBERG: 6 MR. SCOTT: October 20th. 7 THE COURT: -- with references to the trial 8 That's correct, your Honor. transcript, or no? 9 MR. ROSENBERG: Yeah. It references to the trial 10 transcript where -- where appropriate and to the -- there has 11 been a supplementation of too many new exhibits lists, so there 12 will be, obviously, reference perhaps to some of the new 13 exhibits. 14 15 MR. SCOTT: And we -- I think all parties have the copies of the daily, so we've all got our transcripts -- 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 MR. SCOTT: -- and we've been working through it 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. SCOTT: And, so, October 20th is the day -- is 18 21 already. the first day of early voting, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. SCOTT: And that would be the first day that 24 25 someone would need to use their I.D. MR. ROSENBERG: And I guess the last question I have EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 11 1 is, on the 22nd would you prefer the morning or the afternoon? 2 3 THE COURT: How long -- plaintiffs asked for three hours? 4 MR. ROSENBERG: 5 THE COURT: 6 MR. ROSENBERG: 7 Plaintiffs would -- No. -- be able to do theirs in two hours, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: 9 MR. ROSENBERG: 10 THE COURT: 11 MR. CLAY: 12 MR. SCOTT: 13 No. Two hours. Yeah. And defense? Less than an hour; 30 minutes. We'll take the hour. (Laughter) 14 MR. DONNELL: 15 MR. SCOTT: We'll take the hour. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 (indiscernible) thing, and then I'll let you know -- 18 MR. ROSENBERG: 19 THE COURT: 20 afternoon. 21 22 Let me just check on -- on one Okay. -- if I'd prefer the morning or the Okay? MR. ROSENBERG: Great. Thank you very much, your Honor. 23 MR. SPEAKER: 24 THE COURT: 25 MR. SPEAKER: (indiscernible) Monday? All right. Monday. Monday. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 12 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 THE COURT: 2 Okay. 3 MR. SCOTT: 4 Monday, 22nd. And, your Honor, we're going to start off the day with readings. 5 MS. DEASON: 6 THE COURT: 7 MS. DEASON: 8 9 defendants. Your Honor, may I approach? Yes. Whitney Deason and Stephen Tatum for the We'll be reading from David Dewhurst's deposition. EXAMINATION OF DAVID DEWHURST 10 BY EXCERPTS OF DEPOSITION TESTIMONY 11 (QUESTIONS READ BY MS. DEASON; ANSWERS READ BY MR. TATUM) 12 "QUESTION: Good morning, Mr. Dewhurst. 13 "ANSWER: 14 "QUESTION: 15 "ANSWER: 16 process in which I've used a number of times on a 17 number of different subjects in order to provide all 18 the senators voluminous information, pro and con, on 19 an issue at one time. 20 MS. DEASON: 21 "QUESTION: 22 "ANSWER: 23 Senate to call for a Committee of the Whole. 24 and the Committee of the Whole is activated, and I 25 am -- I step down temporarily as the presiding Good morning. What is the Committee of the Whole? A Committee of the Whole is a legislative Oh, sorry. Thank you. How is it convened? It is convened by my asking a member of the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC And -- Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 13 1 officer and I appoint a chair of the Committee of the 2 Whole. 3 takes the chair of the senator that has been 4 appointed to be the Chair of the Committee of the 5 Whole. 6 "QUESTION: 7 Governor does not convene, does not have the power to 8 convene the Committee of the Whole, another senator 9 does? And traditionally, the Lieutenant Governor Is it accurate that the Lieutenant 10 "ANSWER: That is true. 11 "QUESTION: 12 Committee of the Whole typically consider? 13 "ANSWER: 14 Committee of the Whole considers. 15 subject the Lieutenant Governor chooses. 16 Committee of the Whole on redistricting issues. 17 We've had Committee of the Whole on school finance. 18 And we've had Committee of the Whole on voter I.D. 19 It is a relatively common tool where you have a lot 20 of information that would not be disseminated to two- 21 thirds of your Senate if it just went through a 22 committee hearing. 23 "QUESTION: 24 right to debate and vote on all questions in the 25 Committee of the Whole? What types of legislation does the There's no typical legislation the It can be whatever We have had Does the Lieutenant Governor have the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 14 1 "ANSWER: Yes. 2 "QUESTION: 3 Committee of the Whole in 2009 and 2011, did you vote 4 in the Committee of the Whole in favor of those 5 bills? 6 "ANSWER: 7 "QUESTION: 8 of the Whole, does the Committee of the Whole 9 function in the same way that other committees do? When voter I.D. was referred to the Yes. After a bill is assigned to the Committee 10 "ANSWER: Yes. 11 "QUESTION: 12 you referred these -- those legislations to the 13 Committee of the Whole? 14 "ANSWER: 15 generally is the best place to provide lengthy public 16 testimony either for or against a bill so that all 17 members, all 31, hear the public testimony rather -- 18 rather than just the seven or eight of the 31 who are 19 assigned to the committee that is hearing the bill. 20 "QUESTION: 21 testified that it was fairly common that bill 22 supporters would wait for their supporters to be 23 present on the floor such that they would -- such 24 that they had two-thirds and then they would seek to 25 move to suspend. Do you recall, sitting here today, why Because the Committee of the Whole That you just testified -- you just Do you recall when that happened EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 15 1 before, a specific instance? 2 "ANSWER: 3 remember on a number of different bills that that 4 occurred, it's a fairly common legislative practice. 5 You try and move your bill when you have the votes on 6 the floor. 7 "QUESTION: 8 session? 9 "ANSWER: The only thing I -- the only thing I can How often does that happen in the Monthly. 10 "QUESTION: But it happens every session, to your 11 knowledge? 12 "ANSWER: 13 "QUESTION: 14 or facts that caused you to conclude in 2008 that it 15 was a good idea to press forward with voter I.D. in 16 2009? 17 "ANSWER: 18 looked at passing voter I.D., the reason I did that 19 was because I had been concerned for many, many years 20 about low voter turnout in Texas. 21 consistently over the last 10 to 12 years that -- 22 that many Texans either hesitate to vote or don't 23 vote because they don’t think their vote will count 24 because they're concerned about voter fraud. 25 "QUESTION: Yes. Was there any other set of circumstances Well, beginning in 2005, when we first And I have heard Was there a particular aspect of Senate EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 16 1 Bill 362 that you were involved in? 2 "ANSWER: 3 as close as we could after what had passed in Indiana 4 and been approved by the U.S. Supreme Court, and I 5 don't remember when Georgia received their 6 preclearance, but -- but at a later date, the Georgia 7 bill. 8 "QUESTION: 9 I.D. bill, the Georgia photo I.D. bill. It was my desire to model a Voter I.D. bill So you were following the Indiana photo Were there 10 any other models that you were following in 11 developing Senate Bill 362? 12 "ANSWER: 13 Fraser, in all my conversations with Democrat 14 Senators and Republican Senators, I stressed that I 15 wanted the bill to be constitutional, meet all of the 16 guidelines and that those two bills -- and now I may 17 be getting ahead of myself several months because I 18 don't remember when the Georgia bill was precleared, 19 but I think that the Indiana bill was approved by the 20 Supreme Court in 2008, which would have preceded this 21 by at least six months -- that these were good 22 examples of bills that we could model our legislation 23 after to make sure that we met all of the 24 constitutional requirements and protected all of our 25 citizens, because, again, my goal was increasing In all my conversations with Senator EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 17 1 turnout by everyone. 2 "QUESTION: 3 I.D.? 4 "ANSWER: 5 "QUESTION: 6 "ANSWER: 7 start. They were a start in the process to reduce 8 fraud. But I could not evaluate whether or not they 9 alone would permit the integrity of the election Did you have concerns about non-photo Yes. What were those concerns? That they would not -- that they were a 10 process to be protected, how much fraud they would 11 reduce of in-person and/or other frauds, mail-in and 12 registration, and I expressed that to -- to Senator 13 Fraser. 14 "QUESTION: 15 instances in which non-photo I.D. had been used in 16 the past fraudulently by voters in Texas? 17 "ANSWER: 18 or any time prior to and including the regular 19 session, 2009? 20 "QUESTION: 21 you aware -- 22 "ANSWER: 23 "QUESTION: 24 "ANSWER: 25 "QUESTION: Were you aware of any particular Are you asking me about a specific timeline The latter; any time prior to 2009, were Prior to 2009 or including 2009? Including 2009. Were you aware? Yes. And what -- when did that occur? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 18 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 "ANSWER: During -- during my conversations to voters 2 around the state for the -- for the four years prior 3 to 2009, I was frequently told of -- by people, 4 including election officials, of in-person fraud that 5 had been committed. 6 the 24 -- was it 24 hours? 7 four was in 2011? 8 2009 session, in which we had a 26 or 27-hour nonstop 9 session, it was replete with examples of in-person During the 2009 session, during No. Was it the 2009? It was in 2009. Twenty- During the 10 voter fraud. 11 "QUESTION: 12 Texans through traveling the state and the hearing in 13 2009, are you aware of any other instances of persons 14 using non-photo I.D. to commitment -- to commit in- 15 person voter impersonations? 16 "ANSWER: 17 "QUESTION: 18 "ANSWER: 19 that is that Senator Tommy Williams told me that 20 his -- and I may be getting this wrong. 21 either his father or his brother had died in the mid- 22 1990's and it wasn't until -- until the late 2000's 23 that he discovered that his deceased father or 24 brother had voted almost every election, and, not 25 surprising, in the Democrat primary. Outside of what you heard from voters and Yes. Could you tell me about those instances. Well, I'll just share one with you, and EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC It was Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 19 1 "QUESTION: Did the Crawford decision have any impact 2 on the development of voter I.D. legislation in 3 Texas? 4 "ANSWER: 5 "QUESTION: 6 legislation in Texas? 7 "ANSWER: 8 Bill 14, I felt that it was important, and Senator 9 Fraser agreed, that we focus on a model that had been 10 approved by the U.S. Supreme Court and in the case of 11 Georgia had reached preclearance. 12 "QUESTION: 13 Senate Bill 362 had been filed, did you want to 14 ensure that Texas could enforce Senate Bill 362 had 15 it been enacted? 16 "ANSWER: 17 today, is make sure that any election legislation is 18 constitutional, protects all parties, and increases 19 the amount of turnout. 20 "QUESTION: 21 Senate Bill 362 by getting it precleared under 22 Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act; is that right? 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 to determine the impact of Senate Bill 362 on Yes. How did it impact the development of Over time, certainly by 2011 and Senate Did you want to -- when you -- when My intent from day one, in 2005 through And you wanted to be able to enforce Yes. Did you consider whether it was advisable EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 20 1 minority voters and make any adjustments in the bill, 2 if necessary, to increase the likelihood of 3 preclearance? 4 "ANSWER: 5 at and were able to find evidence, both in -- in 6 Indiana's case, as well as several studies that were 7 done by universities and think tanks, that showed 8 that there were no reduction in minority voter 9 turnout in states with a photo voter I.D. or voter During the time of 2008 and 2009, we looked 10 I.D. 11 "QUESTION: 12 or only included Indiana and Georgia; is that 13 correct? 14 "ANSWER: 15 empirical data from their Secretary of State's 16 office. 17 studies -- empirical studies that were done by a 18 couple of universities and by one think tank. 19 "QUESTION: 20 "ANSWER: 21 I testified on House Bill 218, to reduce voter fraud. 22 "QUESTION: 23 Bill 362 that are not set forth in this press 24 release? 25 "ANSWER: And those states would include Indiana -- Those were the two states that we had We -- but we also searched and found What was the purpose of Senate Bill 362? Purpose of 362 -- Senate Bill 362 was, like Are there any other purposes of Senate No. The purpose of Senate Bill 362 is to EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 21 1 reduce in-person voter fraud, which will, in my 2 judgment, after talking to thousands of people, 3 increase the confidence of the voters in Texas of the 4 integrity of our voting system and result in a higher 5 voter turnout, as we've seen in the case of Indiana 6 and Georgia. 7 "QUESTION: 8 possible changes to the rules in order to ensure that 9 the Senate would pass a voter I.D. bill as opposed to Did Senator Williams look into any 10 what happened with House Bill 218? 11 "ANSWER: 12 "QUESTION: 13 Does that mean you don't know? 14 "ANSWER: 15 didn't do. 16 "QUESTION: 17 point of order against further consideration of 18 Senate Resolution 14 insofar as it should be referred 19 to a committee? 20 "ANSWER: 21 see. 22 "QUESTION: 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 order was made by Senator Shapleigh in that regard? I'm not advised. What do you mean by 'I'm not advised'? I don't know what Senator Williams did or Thank you. I don't know. Certainly. Did Senator Shapleigh raise a I'll have to read and -- to And I would -- Page 25? Exactly. Thank you. So, yes, a point of EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 22 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 "ANSWER: Yes. 2 "QUESTION: 3 "ANSWER: 4 "QUESTION: 5 "ANSWER: 6 "QUESTION: 7 "ANSWER: 8 majority of the senators to change Senate rules. 9 therefore, this resolution was entirely within the Did you rule on that point of order? I did. How did you rule? I overruled it. Why did you overrule it? Because the rules of the Senate permitted a So, 10 tradition and rules of the Senate. 11 "QUESTION: 12 regular session seen a particular issue area carved 13 out or set for approval by a majority in Rule 16? 14 "ANSWER: 15 "QUESTION: 16 "ANSWER: 17 majority vote. 18 "QUESTION: 19 "ANSWER: 20 "QUESTION: 21 the bill to the Committee of the Whole have the 22 effect of expediting its consideration? 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 amendments to bills while they're being considered by Had you ever in any previous rule of a Yes. What rule is that? All the rules were subject to a simple I see. All of them. Did it have to be -- did the referral of No. Are members prohibited from offering EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 23 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 the Committee of the Whole? 2 "ANSWER: 3 "QUESTION: 4 down consideration of a bill in a committee, other 5 than the Committee of the Whole, what procedures 6 would the bill opponent employ? 7 "ANSWER: 8 moment, because there's a limited number of ways that 9 an opponent of the bill could slow down consideration No. If an opponent of a bill wants to slow Well, I'm going to have to think for a 10 in a committee. One that quickly comes to mind is to 11 try and talk the chair of the committee into waiting 12 on consideration of the bill. 13 option, as was done in this case by the Democrats, 14 and that is to extend by X amount of time the 15 consideration of the bill by having a lot of public 16 testimony. 17 "QUESTION: 18 guess I wanted to ask you as to, one, whether you 19 believed that Senate Bill 362 was less likely to 20 disenfranchise elderly, poor, or minority voters 21 because it permitted the use of non-photo I.D. 22 "ANSWER: 23 Senate Bill 362 disenfranchises elderly, poor, or 24 minority voters, and all of the empirical data that 25 I've seen shows just the opposite. Okay. Perhaps another Getting back -- let's see. I Well, first of all, I don't believe that EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 24 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 "QUESTION: Certainly. Would you agree that photo 2 I.D. legislation that did not include the use of non- 3 photo I.D. would have a greater chance of 4 disenfranchising elderly, poor, or minority voters? 5 "ANSWER: 6 is not true. 7 shown that there is no -- no example that I'm aware 8 of where in any jurisdiction with a photo voter I.D. 9 requirement, that individuals have not been able to I categorically oppose that statement. It All of the empirical data I've seen has 10 obtain access to acceptable documents. 11 "QUESTION: 12 the cost of obtaining a Texas birth certificate in 13 2009? 14 "ANSWER: 15 I'm not -- I don't remember whether I knew, as 16 Exhibit 14 points out, that -- that it was a cost of 17 $22. 18 for obtaining some of the documents, and I wanted to 19 get that down to zero. 20 "QUESTION: 21 "ANSWER: 22 turnout. 23 "QUESTION: 24 that cost to zero, besides telling the birth 25 certificate issuance people that they needed to fix Is it fair to say that you were aware of I was aware that there may be some cost. That surprises me. But I knew there was a cost What steps -- Because my goals were to increase voter What steps did you take to get that, get EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 25 1 that? 2 "ANSWER: 3 question before by saying that my first priority was 4 to get the bill passed. 5 the rules -- the implementation of the bill through 6 rules to be issued by the agencies is -- is always 7 done. 8 them it was my intent to have the cost reduced, as I 9 have done subsequent in Senate Bill 14. But, Counsel, the -- I've answered your Then the implementation of And -- and, then, during that process I told 10 "QUESTION: Did you believe in 2009 that any of the 11 costs associated with the documents, of the 12 underlying documents necessary to obtain photo I.D., 13 would be costly for some voters? 14 "ANSWER: 15 implementation, once the bill had passed -- during 16 the implementation of the bill by the agencies to 17 reduce that cost. 18 "QUESTION: 19 House; is that correct? 20 "ANSWER: 21 Senate. 22 "QUESTION: 23 Senators in the Senate? 24 "ANSWER: 25 "QUESTION: No. Because it was my intent during the Senate Bill 362 was not passed by the That is correct. We passed it in the Did it pass with a majority of the Yes. And not two-thirds; is that correct? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 26 1 "ANSWER: That is correct because of the rule change. 2 "QUESTION: 3 pass in the House? 4 "ANSWER: 5 the bill sit from the day it was received from the 6 Senate on March 19th for almost two weeks until 7 March 31st, and then after a -- taking testimony in 8 the House on April 7th, it sat for almost five weeks. 9 "QUESTION: Do you know why Senate Bill 362 failed to With no criticism intended, the House let And, so, there was not sufficient time in 10 the session to get it passed in the House? 11 "ANSWER: 12 calendar, and if I recall correctly, the Democrats 13 chubbed it to death, meaning they talked and talked 14 and talked on routine matters, killing routine bills 15 in order to kill the bill. 16 "QUESTION: 17 I.D. bill in 2011? 18 "ANSWER: 19 "QUESTION: What did you believe could be done 20 differently to ensure the passage of voter I.D. 21 legislation in the 2011 session than had been done in 22 2009? 23 "ANSWER: 24 pass it earlier to make it more difficult for the 25 opponents of the bill to chub it in the House. It was -- it was placed on major state Did you want the Senate to pass the voter Yes. Well, one, take the bill up earlier and EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 27 1 "QUESTION: Did you prior to the 2011 session discuss 2 with Senator Fraser filing another voter I.D. bill? 3 "ANSWER: 4 "QUESTION: 5 the bill? 6 "ANSWER: 7 "QUESTION: 8 "ANSWER: 9 for then six long years, I had been meeting regularly Yes. Did you discuss any other provisions of Yes. What were the provisions you discussed? I reminded Senator Fraser that for then -- 10 with the Democrat Senators to agree on a bipartisan 11 bill, because the Democrat Senators recognized that 12 they were on the wrong side of the majority of the 13 voters of Texas. 14 majority of, not only Anglo, but Hispanic and 15 African-American voters, during that time period from 16 2008 through 2011, were in favor of a voter I.D., and 17 that we really ought to work together and come up 18 with a bill. 19 "All of the flexibility afforded in 218 and 362 was 20 voted against time after time by -- by the Democrat 21 voters. 22 voters voted for those bills. 23 Senator Fraser that maybe it's time to focus 24 inclusively on a bill that is -- that is clearly 25 constitutional by modeling this after the Indiana and They recognized that a super While in the House, a number of minority And I discussed with EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 28 1 Georgia bills. 2 "QUESTION: 3 determining which photo I.D.'s to include in Senate 4 Bill 14? 5 "ANSWER: 6 moment ago, that there had been a discussion in the 7 fall of 2010 about modeling our -- the next bill that 8 was introduced in 2011 on the Indiana bill and the 9 Georgia bill, principally because I wanted to make Are you aware of the criteria used for Only generally repeating my testimony of a 10 sure that after years of trying to pass a fair bill, 11 that we got one passed that was imminently 12 constitutional and met all of the tests. 13 "QUESTION: 14 of non-photo I.D.'s? 15 "ANSWER: 16 bill after the Indiana bill that had -- that had been 17 cleared by the U.S. Supreme Court and the Georgia 18 bill. 19 "QUESTION: 20 testified that Senate Bill 14 did not allow the use 21 of non-photo I.D. because it was modeled on the 22 Georgia and Indiana photo I.D. laws, which also did 23 not include photo I.D. -- did -- I'm sorry; did not 24 include non-photo I.D. 25 "ANSWER: Why did Senate Bill 14 not allow the use Well, I think our intent was to model the Thank you. So, I believe you just My conversations with Senator Fraser were EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 29 1 that since -- since we had started the process with 2 218 and 362 in the 2005, 2007, and 2009 sessions, and 3 the Democrats were, in the Texas Senate, were 4 chubbing us, I was having critical conversations with 5 them in which they would say one thing and then on 6 the floor they were saying something else; in other 7 words, saying that we could work this out, we could 8 reach an agreement. 9 efforts and -- that I thought that after all of this 10 effort, culminating six years of work, that the only 11 absolute that we had and the most logical safe harbor 12 for us was to model our legislation after the Indiana 13 bill, which had already been approved by the U.S. 14 Supreme Court, and/or the Georgia bill. 15 here at this moment, you have made a representation 16 that the Indiana bill had no non-photo I.D., and I 17 don't remember, as I sit here, whether or not the 18 Georgia bill included some or not. 19 overview was what I communicated, not only to Senator 20 Fraser as a -- and I'm not using the word correctly, 21 but a safe place to be, in order to meet the 22 constitution of the United States and make sure we 23 increased voter turnout. 24 "QUESTION: 25 age of 70 come to be included in the Senate Bill as They were voting against all our As we sit But that general How did the exception for voters over the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 30 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 it was introduced? 2 "ANSWER: 3 that is for -- at this point in time, for the 4 previous four years, I have been -- and the word 5 negotiating may be too formal of a word, but 6 certainly talking -- twisting arms among Republicans 7 and principally Democrats to find common ground to 8 pass a voter I.D. bill. 9 several times already, the Democrats were telling me Because we were about to go into it. And And as I've testified 10 one thing in person and something else when they were 11 pontificating on the floor of the Senate. 12 to believe and was telling Republicans, as late as 13 going into the 2009 session, that I thought we could 14 work out a mutually -- a mutually agreeable bill, but 15 that turned out not to be the case. 16 this in any way a criticism, other than it became, 17 obviously, to them, a wedge issue. 18 what they may share with me as a friend, they could 19 not publicly vote for a voter I.D. bill. 20 that -- that frustration, again, led me to recommend 21 that we go to the only known constitutional safe 22 harbor we had, which was to model Senate Bill 14 23 after the Indiana and Georgia bills. 24 25 I was led I don't mean And regardless of And, so, "It is substantially the same answer that I just gave. Over a four-plus-year time period, and in EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 31 1 talking -- if not negotiating with the Democrat 2 Senators, one of the requests that they repeatedly 3 made was, 'How about Grandma'? 4 Mario Gallegos frequently talked in private with me 5 and on the floor about, 'Grandmother doesn't have a 6 driver's license.' 7 to that concern, I pushed for the exception of 8 people -- I can't remember now whether it was over 75 9 or over 70. In fact, Senator And, so, trying to be responsive 10 "QUESTION: My question stands. Weren't you 11 requested by bill opponents relief and accommodations 12 to make sure that -- that racial minorities would be 13 able to have access to I.D.'s and participate in 14 elections? 15 "ANSWER: 16 that to me, but to be responsive to the public 17 testimony that I heard, not only in 2005 and 2007 and 18 2009, we made an effort to -- to eliminate the cost 19 on the underlying documents that were required in 20 order to be able to vote. 21 "QUESTION: 22 just testified to, you wanted to get this bill 23 quickly to the House, was there any reason why you 24 placed a priority on passing voter I.D. before some 25 of these other items you mentioned in the talking I don't know that it was worded quite like Why did you place -- other than what you EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 32 1 points, the budget, eminent domain, border security, 2 et cetera? 3 "ANSWER: 4 Republicans and Democrats, they wanted to get this 5 issue behind them, and they thought it would be 6 better that we address it early in the session and 7 got on with all of our other work. 8 from conversations with Republicans and Democrats. 9 "QUESTION: Counsel, in my conversations with both And that came Is it true that Democrats did have 10 concerns about the expedited consideration of Senate 11 Bill 14, notwithstanding what you just testified to? 12 "ANSWER: 13 raised concerns, but keep in mind that -- that they 14 raised concerns about anything involving this bill. 15 And I viewed it as simply a delaying or -- or 16 measure, because from my conversation with the 17 Democrat Senators who had talked to me over the 18 period, at this point four years, five years, about 19 trying to work together, this was a wedge issue that 20 the Democrats were not going to agree to regardless 21 of the fact, again, that the -- a super majority of 22 Texas voters, Anglo, African American, and Hispanic, 23 according to polls, were in favor of a voter I.D. 24 "QUESTION: 25 Senate's best interest to complete work on voter I.D. I know that certain Democrat Senators Why did you think that it was in the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 33 1 before focusing on these other issues? 2 "ANSWER: 3 us so we wouldn't have a spillover on other issues 4 that -- that I believe we had an -- we had a 5 excellent chance of working together on a bipartisan 6 basis. 7 "QUESTION: 8 endeavored to ensure that obtaining I.D. was no more 9 inconvenient or burdensome than voting? Because I wanted to put this issue behind Do you believe that Senate Bill 14 10 "ANSWER: Yes. 11 "QUESTION: 12 "ANSWER: 13 "QUESTION: 14 I.D. no more inconvenient or burdensome than the act 15 of voting? 16 "ANSWER: 17 number of fraudulent voters, whether it's in-person 18 voting, mail-in, or registration, a process was 19 started to pass legislation which would have reduced 20 in-person fraud. 21 registration fraud, but that was taken off because of 22 the one -- the one-subject rule, the -- the two- 23 subject rule. 24 who you are has not changed, and efforts were made 25 through the regulatory process in order to make the And how did you do that? How did it not -How did it -- how did it make obtaining In an effort to combat fraud and reduce the And I tried to include a And -- and that requirement to prove EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 34 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 I.D. that was required in order to vote free, or as 2 nearly free as possible, and to ease the time that it 3 took a person to obtain that documentation. 4 recall, it was reduced down to two days by regulation 5 or statute so that it was no more inconvenient or 6 burdensome than the normal act of voting, 7 understanding that a voting I.D. was introduced. 8 "QUESTION: 9 Senate Bill 14 would withstand or would be precleared As I And is it your testimony that you thought 10 because the Georgia photo I.D. law had been 11 precleared by the Department of Justice? 12 "ANSWER: 13 Counsel, my entire life with this bill, which seems 14 like longer than six years, I have never heard one 15 person use race discrimination as a reason for 16 passing this bill. 17 wanted to increase the number of voters, whether 18 they're Hispanic, African American, or Anglo. 19 "QUESTION: 20 consideration of Senate Bill 14 the number of 21 registered voters without a driver's license or a 22 personal I.D. card? 23 "ANSWER: 24 I don't recall the exact number. 25 "QUESTION: Yes. And because in my entire experience, And I have -- I have always Did you learn at any time during the I was told that it was a small number, but Do you recall who told you that? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 "ANSWER: 2 "QUESTION: 3 "ANSWER: 4 "QUESTION: 5 Bill 14? 6 "ANSWER: 7 "QUESTION: 8 your office? 9 "ANSWER: 35 Staff. Your staff? Yes. Was that during consideration of Senate I don't remember. Was that Mr. Hebert or someone else in I don't remember. 10 "QUESTION: Did you learn that before Senate Bill 14 11 was passed by the Senate? 12 "ANSWER: 13 "QUESTION: 14 mean by small? 15 "ANSWER: 16 "QUESTION: 17 felt that the information, since you had been 18 provided by Mr. Hebert -- 19 "ANSWER: 20 "QUESTION: 21 Texas voters without the I.D. -- 22 "ANSWER: 23 "QUESTION: 24 the racial breakdown of those voters and why you 25 relied upon data in other states. I believe I did. By small, did you learn -- what do you Three to seven percent. I'm just trying to understand why you Right. -- a universe of persons, Texas -- actual Right. -- why you wouldn't want to investigate That's what I'm -- EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 36 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 simply what I'm trying to ask you. 2 "ANSWER: 3 percent, let's say, on average, five percent, then 4 some -- some -- some percentage of that universe 5 would be minority voters. 6 of the -- the efforts which we were -- I had already 7 communicated with Senator Fraser on, on making this a 8 no cost to people that want to obtain photo voter 9 I.D., that the agencies, DPS and Health and Human If the universe of voters is three to seven And I felt that, in light 10 Services, would implement what we wanted, and they 11 did. 12 a problem. 13 of identification that was required under Senate 14 Bill 14. 15 identification. 16 you had to do was apply and get an election 17 identification card. 18 that point, knowing that they -- having problems 19 marrying the databases and knowing that there was a 20 continuing problem with -- with accessing the data, 21 that it would -- that it would be worth the time 22 spent, since I didn't believe it was going to be at 23 that point in time, in 2011, productive. 24 "QUESTION: 25 composition of the voters in Texas was similar to the And, therefore, the -- that was not going to be A driver's license was not the only form Senate Bill 14 did provide for free It didn't make any difference. All And, so, I didn't feel like at Did you believe that the racial EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 37 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 racial composition of the voters in Indiana and in 2 Georgia? 3 "ANSWER: 4 higher percentage of minority voters than I had 5 anticipated, based on the testimony from the 6 Secretary of State's office, a large African-American 7 and increasing Hispanic population in the carried 8 area and others. 9 much from a Hispanic point of view, but from African Not in Indiana, although Indiana has a I thought our population, not so 10 American, was not totally dissimilar in Georgia. And 11 based upon that, I felt that the information in front 12 of us clearly indicated that there was not a risk of 13 any discrimination against any groups. 14 of fact, my goal from day one has been to increase 15 turnout. 16 of Republicans and Democrats for not doing everything 17 possible to increase voter turnout. 18 healthy for democracy. 19 believe that. 20 "QUESTION: 21 to target efforts towards, for example, locating 22 driver license offices or implementing the EICs in 23 the manner in which you've testified to know more 24 information about where these voters resided? 25 "ANSWER: As a matter I happen to be one of the biggest critics I think it's End of speech. But I really Do you think it would have been helpful Yes. And we generally knew where they EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 38 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 resided. 2 "QUESTION: 3 "ANSWER: 4 and I talked to the DPS on several occasions about 5 expanding our hours, growing the -- increasing the 6 size of our driver's license departments, so we 7 could -- so we could handle more driver's license, 8 both -- more drivers' applications and the new 9 increase in election identification cards. How? We knew -- because we have voter records, And the 10 DPS has been responsive. They have enlarged, based 11 upon the appropriation that I made for them last 12 year, a number of their locations. 13 their hours to include Saturdays in a number of their 14 locations. 15 25 mobile registration vans to move into areas to 16 increase registration. 17 healthy, whether you're a Democrat or Republican, to 18 increase overall voter turnout. 19 "QUESTION: 20 want to draw your attention back to the legislative 21 process and whether steps were taken during the 22 pendency and consideration of Senate Bill 14 to 23 identify where those voters were located. 24 "ANSWER: 25 conversations with the DPS, they had a general idea They have changed They have added, the last time I looked, I happen to believe it's And, sir, I appreciate your testimony. As I said, in my previous -- in my EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC I Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 39 1 of where most of your population was from that was 2 minority that could be serviced from their different 3 driver's license stations. 4 expanding those stations and by expanding the hours 5 of service that they would access people that needed 6 free I.D. 7 "QUESTION: 8 with DPS? 9 "ANSWER: And they felt that by When did you have those conversations During the pendency of Senate Bill 14 and 10 afterwards. 11 "QUESTION: 12 "ANSWER: 13 appropriated. 14 being made to expand the Texas driver's license 15 departments around the state. 16 "QUESTION: 17 2013 legislature? 18 "ANSWER: 19 "QUESTION: 20 the Texas legislature to enact the strictest photo 21 I.D. law in the country? 22 "ANSWER: 23 was the intent of the Lieutenant Governor to pass a 24 photo -- a photo voter I.D. bill which reduced fraud; 25 and not to repeat myself, I apologize, but to improve Did you -- That's why you saw 25 new vans That's why you saw appropriations And did those appropriations occur in the That's right. Do you believe that it was the intent of It was the intent of the legislature -- it EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 40 1 the confidence by the voters in Texas in our election 2 process, because I warrant to you, most voters didn't 3 have a lot of confidence in the validity of their 4 vote counting -- one person, one vote -- and, as a 5 result, increase the turnout of voters, because in 6 Texas we have a real problem with low voter turnout. 7 "QUESTION: 8 burdens anybody's right to vote? 9 "ANSWER: Do you believe that Senate Bill 14 You're asking me to speculate. It's almost 10 a hypothetical question. I'm -- I'm sure somebody 11 somewhere has been burdened. 12 the relative analysis of how much they've been 13 burdened. 14 I haven't heard of concerns in Texas from the four 15 elections that we've run under Senate Bill 14 of 16 people not being able to gain access. 17 heard anything from Ms. Westfall, I haven't heard 18 anything from you, about people that -- that are 19 having a problem getting acceptable photo voter I.D. 20 If there are cases, then I'd love to know about it 21 because I want to address it. 22 everybody has the chance to vote who wants to vote. 23 I want to see more people vote. 24 "QUESTION: 25 questions, a little bit of your time, earlier in the Now we have to get into But, again, I haven't heard of complaints. And I haven't I want to make sure Governor, if I could have a few EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 41 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 deposition you said something about you don't recall 2 any specific debate amongst the Democrats or the 3 Senators about some issues, but let's take away the 4 floor debates and let's ask you a more simple 5 question. 6 prior to the passage of SB 14, were -- did you have 7 any communication with any Democrats or folks that 8 ultimately were opposed to SB 14? 9 "ANSWER: During the course of consideration and Well, since the first day that we 10 considered voter -- voter I.D. in the bill that came 11 over from the House in two thousand -- 12 "QUESTION: 13 "ANSWER: 14 moment. 15 "QUESTION: 16 "ANSWER: 17 eighteen came over. 18 Ever since the first -- all right. 19 Excuse me. 20 which I knew there was going to be a push in the 21 House and one in the Senate to consider a voter I.D. 22 bill, I started multiple conversations with the then 23 11 Democrat Senators in the Senate and -- and worked 24 with them on trying to come up with a compromise 25 bill. '09? Three sixty-two? No, no, no. Bear with me for just a In 2005 -Okay. -- House Bill 218? Is that right? Two thousand seven. Two All right. Excuse me. Ever since before the 2007 session in And that was the genesis for a number of the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 42 1 non-photo I.D.'s that were included, the exception 2 that we included even in Senate Bill 17, which we -- 3 excuse me, Senate Bill 14, which we passed out of the 4 Senate in 2011, with an exception for seniors over 70 5 years old. 6 "QUESTION: 7 do you recall visiting with prior to that SB -- 8 "ANSWER: 9 one of them. What Senators -- what Democratic Senators I visited -- I visited with virtually every Every one of them, from Senator Van de 10 Putte, Senator then Shapleigh, Senator Hinojosa, 11 Senator Uresti, Senator Whitmire, Senator Gallegos, 12 Senator Lucio, et cetera, and -- and I continued 13 negotiating with them on a compromise bill, in good 14 faith, in 2006, before the 2007 session, during -- 15 during the regular session in 2007, when the House 16 took up and passed their voter I.D. bill, House Bill 17 218, and sent it to us. 18 the latter part of the session as our Committee on 19 State Affairs considered the bill, passed it out of 20 State Affairs, and it went to the floor. 21 optimistic that we would be able to -- to work 22 something out. 23 essence, realized that they were on the wrong side of 24 their voters. 25 word we're -- I know we're -- we're upside down in And I worked with them in I was The Democrats that I spoke to, in In fact, several of them used that EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 43 1 our voters, but this is an issue that will get us a 2 primary opponent if we go along with it. 3 me. 4 increase overall voter turnout, because this has been 5 a -- a concern of mine since I first came into the 6 legislature. 7 "QUESTION: 8 with any of the Senators prior to the passage of 9 SB 14 allay any fears you had with regard to perhaps They know me. They knew And they knew that my goal was to Did -- did any of your communications 10 any kind of adverse impact of the passage of SB 14 on 11 any specific minority group? 12 "ANSWER: 13 and -- and if you go all the way to 2011, that -- 14 that number that -- we added one more Democrat 15 Senator in the Senate. 16 And I don't recall I spoke to her about voter I.D., 17 but I did speak to the other Senators. 18 their comments to me were much more measured, much -- 19 much more open than what they said on the floor. 20 "QUESTION: 21 different parts. 22 individual Senators that you recall speaking to prior 23 to the passage of SB 14. 24 recall the names of any of the specific Senators that 25 you spoke with prior to the passage of SB 14 about The Democrat Senators that I spoke with, That was Senator Wendy Davis. Their -- So, let's -- let's deal with a couple of So, specifically, let's take So, specifically, do you EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 44 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 these discussions that you heretofore described in 2 your testimony? 3 "ANSWER: 4 during the 2009 session in the discussion of Senate 5 Bill 362, but they -- and some took place during the 6 interim leading up to the 2011 session, where we took 7 up Senate Bill 14. 8 with Senator Eddie Lucio, and I had numerous 9 conversations with Senator John Whitmire. Well, some of the conversations took place But I had numerous conversations I had 10 numerous conversations with Senator Eliot Shapleigh 11 before he stepped down from the Senate. 12 numerous conversations with Senator West that I can 13 remember about the fact that they were upside down as 14 far as their voters were concerned and why don't we 15 work together. 16 even with Eliot Shapleigh, trying to negotiate with 17 him what -- what exceptions we needed. 18 elderly voters needing an exception. 19 Senator Mario Gallegos, who I talked to repeatedly, 20 he focused on his grandmother and wanting to have an 21 exception for elderly people also. 22 John Whitmire, Senator Whitmire, he was not as 23 optimistic that anything could be worked out on a 24 consensus basis because it would probably, in his 25 words, generate a primary opponent for him. I had And a number of them I can remember, He focused on In the case of On the case of EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC So, I Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct I understood that. 45 1 understood that. But -- but -- 2 and I don't know if -- if the three opposing counsel 3 will understand this, but at least in Texas, it's 4 such a different state from Washington, that I 5 consider all these Democrat Senators friends of mine. 6 And that's why I'm glad you asserted privilege, and 7 I'm glad this is confidential, because I really don’t 8 want to hurt anyone. 9 for any of our bills. And -- but none of them voted But I -- I went out on a limb 10 and told the Republican caucus in, I believe it was 11 the 2009 session, that I was optimistic we could work 12 out a consensus, and I was wrong. 13 it out. 14 "QUESTION: 15 like, incorporated some of those discussions and 16 negotiations you had with some of these Democrats who 17 ended up voting against the bill; is that correct? 18 "ANSWER: 19 Senate Bill 14 were parts of the concessions, the 20 compromises that -- that we had discussed with 21 Senator Fraser in order to bring on -- in order to 22 bring on Democrats on board in Senate Bill 362, and 23 some of those were retained in Senate Bill 14. 24 "QUESTION: 25 Senate today, and there was one back during the I could not work But, nevertheless, the SB 14, it sounds Some of the -- some of the provisions in Now, there is a procedure in the Texas EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 46 1 consideration of SB 14 and SB 362, where a Senator 2 had the right to add written comments to the record, 3 the official record, after the debate and after the 4 passage of the bill; is that correct? 5 "ANSWER: Well, that's true, but it's true for all 6 Senators. In other words, Senators have the right 7 to -- to notify the Secretary of the Senate within a 8 short period of time after adjournment to change 9 their vote, as long as it doesn't change the outcome 10 of a particular bill, and they have the right to 11 submit written comments. 12 "QUESTION: 13 whether someone has submitted those before or after a 14 vote is taken, either way? 15 "ANSWER: 16 you this way. 17 number on the -- on the Senate journal? 18 remember -- I remember in 2009 being shocked, and I 19 believe the same thing happened in 2011, but I 20 remember that -- that upon passing Senate Bill 362 21 out of the Senate in the 2009 session, staff brought 22 me a copy of the journal as amended by comments from 23 a number of Democrat Senators a day or two later. 24 And, quite frankly, I was disappointed. 25 feelings was too strong, but I was disappointed in How does one look at the record and know Well, let me -- let me see if I can answer What was the -- what was the exhibit EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC I Hurt my 47 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 the -- in the tone and the words that were used by 2 some of the Senators. 3 "QUESTION: 4 determine why they would have submitted it after the 5 debate and after the vote on SB 362? 6 "ANSWER: 7 Justice, of course. 8 them. 9 the -- the -- let me stop there. Did you -- were you ever able to Sure. This is all for the Department of That's why they were submitting They didn't have the -- they didn't have They -- they chose 10 not to say it on the floor of the Senate, where we 11 would have responded to them, but they put it in 12 letters and submitted it into the journal. 13 it's not different from in -- in -- in a letter that 14 Senator Leticia Van de Putte wrote in either 2009 or 15 2011 to Senator Robert Duncan on the Committee of the 16 Whole objecting to what she felt was a short time 17 line between Thursday and a Monday afternoon hearing. 18 She copied the Department of Justice in Washington. 19 So, this was all orchestrated. 20 all of the Republicans and the Democrats, because I 21 talked to them about it, that during these -- that 22 during these proceedings they all had third -- third- 23 party prepared notes. 24 everything scripted by their lawyers on what they 25 said." I mean, It's well known among It was all scripted; EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 MS. DEASON: 48 Your Honor, that concludes Defendants' reading from Lieutenant Governor Dewhurst's deposition. (Pause) MS. WESTFALL: United States. Your Honor, Elizabeth Westfall for the May I approach? THE COURT: Yes. (Pause) MS. WESTFALL: Dan Freeman will be reading the part of Lieutenant Governor Dewhurst. MR. FREEMAN: Mr. Freeman, you ready? Yes. 11 EXAMINATION OF LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR DAVID DEWHURST 12 BY EXCERPTS OF DEPOSITION TESTIMONY 13 (QUESTIONS READ BY MS. WESTFALL; ANSWERS READ BY MR. FREEMAN) 14 "QUESTION: Since 2005, who in your office has been 15 responsible for handling voter ID issues? 16 "ANSWER: 17 initially in 2003, when I came in, Spencer Reid, who 18 was our general counsel. 19 Bryan Hebert when he joined us as a staff attorney in 20 the mid-2000s. 21 "QUESTION: 22 Hebert primarily handled all of your voter ID issues? 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 voter ID issues for you in 2007? Since I became Lieutenant Governor But subsequent to that, Was it -- is it fair to say that Bryan That is my current recollection. Who was the staff person who handled EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 49 1 "ANSWER: I don't remember when -- when Bryan Hebert 2 joined us, but if he was on our staff in 2007, my 3 memory is that it would have been Bryan Hebert. 4 "QUESTION: 5 you in handling voter ID when he did arrive? 6 "ANSWER: 7 came in as Lieutenant Governor, I had non-lawyers as 8 policy analysts with responsibilities for different 9 committees, and I assigned the different members of Could you describe Mr. Hebert's role for The way I organized my office since I first 10 my legal staff to different committees. 11 if my memory is correct on this, Brian Hebert was 12 assigned to State Affairs to follow the legislation 13 in that committee. 14 period of January to early June, 2007, 400 to 600 15 bills. 16 "QUESTION: 17 what's been marked as Exhibit 4." 18 MS. WESTFALL: 19 "QUESTION: 20 "ANSWER: 21 MS. WESTFALL: 22 And so if -- And that would include over a Could you mark this? You've been handed Which is PL-201. Do you recognize this document? No." Could you go up a little bit further, please? 23 "QUESTION: I will represent to you that this is a 24 printout of bills referred to the Committee of the 25 Whole from the Texas Legislature Online for the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 50 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 regular sessions in 2003, 2005, 2007, 2009, 2011, and 2 2013. 3 "ANSWER: 4 "QUESTION: 5 Let me know when you've had a chance to review it. 6 "ANSWER: 7 Exhibit 4, which is to refresh my memory, in 2003 8 there were three bills referred to the Committee of 9 the Whole and one in 2009 and one in 2011? Turning your attention now -Well, hold on just a moment. Oh, certainly, certainly, take your time. Are you saying that according to this Is that 10 what you're saying? 11 "QUESTION: 12 "ANSWER: 13 take up redistricting but we did take up school 14 financing. 15 Committee of the Whole on Voter ID. 16 "QUESTION: 17 MS. WESTFALL: 18 "QUESTION: 19 "ANSWER: 20 "QUESTION: 21 "ANSWER: 22 "QUESTION: 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 of ID are permitted under House Bill 218? Thank you. So you've refreshed my memory and we didn't And on three bills and twice, we had a Did the House pass -And you can bring that down. Did the House pass House Bill 218? I believe so, yes. When did it pass House Bill 218? On April 24th, 2007. Was that relatively late in the session? Yes. Could you describe generally what types EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "ANSWER: 2 photo identification under A, and under B it is 3 additional ID. 4 "QUESTION: 5 "ANSWER: 6 "QUESTION: 7 voter impersonation solely; is that correct? 8 "ANSWER: 9 "QUESTION: 51 Well, other than reading what it says, it's Does that include non-photo ID? Yes. So Senate Bill 362 addressed in-person That is my understanding of the bill. Did Senator Fraser file a voter ID bill 10 in 2008? 11 "ANSWER: 12 "QUESTION: 13 "ANSWER: 14 "QUESTION: 15 substance of Senate Bill 362? 16 "ANSWER: 17 general coordination with the appropriate parties in 18 my office. 19 "QUESTION: 20 "ANSWER: 21 "QUESTION: 22 your office's involvement in developing Senate Bill 23 362? 24 "ANSWER: 25 conversations with the bill sponsor and his staff as Let me look at Exhibit 10. Yes. Was it Senate Bill 362? Yes. Who was involved in developing the Principally, Senator Fraser's office with Would that be Mr. Hebert? I believe so. How would you characterize the extent of Going back to my earlier testimony, EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 52 1 to what they intended with the bill and -- and their 2 proposed timing, and where I disagreed, I would share 3 my thoughts with them. 4 "QUESTION: 5 bill at all, or just the procedure and timing of how 6 to move it? 7 "ANSWER: 8 "QUESTION: 9 362, did you discuss with him or any other Senator Were you involved in the substance of the Both. Before Senator Fraser filed Senate Bill 10 what types of IDs to include in the bill? 11 "ANSWER: 12 "QUESTION: 13 "ANSWER: 14 "QUESTION: 15 at Exhibit 9, at the list of ID, does this refresh 16 your recollection as to whether Senate Bill 362 17 allowed for the use of non-photo ID? 18 "ANSWER: 19 "QUESTION: 20 "ANSWER: 21 "QUESTION: 22 "ANSWER: 23 "QUESTION: 24 the Whole; is that correct? 25 "ANSWER: Yes. Who did you have this discussion with? Senator Fraser. Sir, now that you've had a chance to look Yes. And does it? Yes. Did you support Senate Bill 362? I did. And you voted for it in the Committee of Yes. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "QUESTION: 2 notwithstanding that it included non-photo ID as a 3 permissible form of ID; is that correct? 4 "ANSWER: 5 start on the goal of reducing fraud. 6 "QUESTION: 7 -- 9, pardon me, and the forms of ID listed at Page 8 5, do you know how this list of acceptable IDs in 9 Senate Bill 362 was developed? 53 And you supported Senate Bill 362 Yes. Because I felt like it was a start, a Turning your attention back to Exhibit 10 10 "ANSWER: Yes. 11 "QUESTION: 12 "ANSWER: 13 effort with other offices, and I believe Bryan 14 Hebert. 15 "QUESTION: 16 "ANSWER: 17 that Senator Fraser consulted other Senators. 18 "QUESTION: 19 staff? 20 "ANSWER: 21 "QUESTION: 22 staff? 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 modeled after House Bill 218? How was it developed? By Senator Fraser and a collaborative Which other offices, if you know? I don't specifically recall, but I remember Did he consult with Senator Duncan's I believe he did. Did he consult with Senator Williams' I believe he did. Do you know whether Senate Bill 362 was EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 54 1 "ANSWER: My memory is that it was. 2 "QUESTION: 3 aware of any consideration that Senator Fraser gave 4 to making changes to House Bill 218 before he filed 5 Senate Bill 362? 6 "ANSWER: 7 to base Senate Bill 362 on the previous session's 8 House Bill 218, which had -- because it had passed 9 the House and, therefore, was a good starting point. Turning back to my question, are you Are you aware? It is my memory that Senator Fraser wanted 10 "QUESTION: What was the purpose of Senate Bill 362? 11 "ANSWER: 12 I testified on House Bill 218, to reduce voter fraud. 13 "QUESTION: 14 who appeared at the polls were who they said they 15 were? 16 "ANSWER: 17 testified earlier it was my desire to address 18 ultimately at some point, not only in-person voting, 19 mail-in ballots and also registration. 20 addressed only in-person voting. 21 "QUESTION: 22 fraud was the most important priority for the State 23 of Texas at that time, of all the voter frauds you 24 just testified to? 25 "ANSWER: Purpose of 362 -- Senate Bill 362 was, like Was it only aimed at ensuring that voters Yes. And you will remember that I had But Exhibit 9 Did you believe that in-person voter No. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 55 1 "QUESTION: How does the Senate adopt rules for the 2 regular session? 3 "ANSWER: 4 the members exclusively, closed door, I believe, and 5 agree on rules. 6 "QUESTION: 7 or two days of session? 8 "ANSWER: 9 "QUESTION: The Senate adopts rules by meeting among And is this accomplished in the first one Yes. Is it -- are they voted on by a majority 10 vote? 11 "ANSWER: 12 "QUESTION: 13 was introduced by Senator Williams at the beginning 14 of the 2009 session? 15 "ANSWER: 16 "QUESTION: 17 "ANSWER: 18 "QUESTION: 19 "ANSWER: 20 "QUESTION: 21 "ANSWER: 22 "QUESTION: 23 mark a document. 24 Exhibit 12?" 25 MS. WESTFALL: Yes. Do you recall that Senate Resolution 14 Senate Resolution 14 -Yes. -- you said? Yes. What does Senate Resolution -Pertaining to the rules. Yes. And I think it might be helpful if we Could you please mark this as Which is PL-154. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 56 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "QUESTION: You've been handed what's been marked as 2 Exhibit 12. 3 "ANSWER: 4 it represents the Senate Journal for January 14th, 5 2009. 6 "QUESTION: 7 23 of the Senate Journal. 8 "ANSWER: 9 "QUESTION: Do you recognize this document? I'm not aware that I've seen it before, but If you could, turn your attention to Page Yes. It will -- it sets forth Senate 10 Resolution 14, which I just asked you about. Could 11 you take a moment just to take a look at that 12 resolution and let me know when you've had a chance 13 to review it? 14 "ANSWER: 15 "QUESTION: 16 "ANSWER: 17 "QUESTION: 18 "ANSWER: 19 bill of -- and now I'm reading from Exhibit 12, in 20 Rule 5.11D --" 21 MS. WESTFALL: 22 "ANSWER: 23 resolution relating to voter identification 24 requirements reported favorably from the Committee of 25 the Whole Senate may be set as a special order for a Yes. Do you recall this Senate resolution? Yes. What was it designed to accomplish? Several things, one of which, under D, that Could you blow that up a little? -- notwithstanding Subsection A, a bill or EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 57 1 time at least 24 hours after the motion is adopted by 2 a majority of the members of the Senate. 3 "QUESTION: 4 have, in your own words? 5 "ANSWER: 6 voter ID -- either photo voter ID or voter ID to be 7 passed with a majority vote instead of a two-thirds 8 vote. 9 "QUESTION: What practical effect does that provision It permits, as a practical matter, photo Are you aware of any other Senate rule 10 where a particular type of legislation was subject to 11 this type of procedure? 12 "ANSWER: 13 "QUESTION: 14 the rules by subject matter as Senate Resolution 14, 15 Rule 5.11D does? 16 "ANSWER: 17 added in the Senate, the Senator's own rules, while 18 I've been Lieutenant Governor. 19 "QUESTION: 20 back to Exhibit 10, on February 17th, 2009, was 21 Senate Bill 362 referred to the Committee of the 22 Whole? 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 referral? I'm not aware of a similar rule change. Had you ever seen a special item added to I don't remember ever seeing a special item On February 17 -- turning your attention Yes. Were you the person to make this EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 58 1 "ANSWER: Yes. 2 "QUESTION: 3 Committee of the Whole? 4 "ANSWER: 5 Senators had changed the Senate rules to require that 6 a bill on Voter ID be referred to the Committee of 7 the Whole. 8 "QUESTION: 9 Resolution 14? Why did you refer Senate Bill 362 to the Because pursuant to Exhibit 12, the Was that how you interpreted Senate 10 "ANSWER: Yes. 11 "QUESTION: 12 referral? 13 "ANSWER: 14 "QUESTION: 15 that correct? 16 "ANSWER: 17 "QUESTION: 18 Exhibit 13." 19 MS. WESTFALL: 20 "QUESTION: 21 "ANSWER: 22 "QUESTION: 23 attributed to you in the second paragraph? 24 "ANSWER: 25 in the second paragraph. That it obligated you to make that Yes. It was not within your discretion; is Yes. If you look at 5.11D, it's clear. You've been handed what's been marked as Which is PL-204. Do you recognize this document? No. Do you see that there's a quote that is I see a paragraph that is attributed to me EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "QUESTION: 2 quotation? 3 "ANSWER: 4 your question. 5 "QUESTION: 6 time -- actually, what's the date of this article, 7 Exhibit 13? 8 "ANSWER: 9 says, 'March 4th, 2009.' 59 Do you believe that this is an accurate I don't -- I don't believe so in light of Do you believe that -- you did at this If you look above the caption in bold, it 10 "QUESTION: Does this refresh your recollection as to 11 whether you were advocating for a grace period of two 12 to four years in 2009? 13 "ANSWER: You're going to have to define 'grace 14 period.' For what? 15 "QUESTION: 16 were advocating for a grace period of two to four 17 years? 18 "ANSWER: 19 the -- the validity of the bill for two to four 20 years. 21 "QUESTION: 22 "ANSWER: 23 principally voters in their seventies. 24 increasingly, voters in their seventies don't strike 25 me as elderly anymore. What did -- what did you mean when you I was not advocating for a postponement of What were you advocating for? A phase-in on elderly voters without ID, EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Although Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "QUESTION: 2 any other classes of voters in 2009? 3 "ANSWER: 4 "QUESTION: 5 senator about the cost of obtaining a Texas birth 6 certificate or DPS ID card in 2009? 7 "ANSWER: 8 "QUESTION: 9 "ANSWER: 60 Were you advocating for a phase-in for No. Did you have any discussion with any Yes. Who did you discuss this with? I discussed with Senator Fraser and several 10 other senators that, as the rules were promulgated by 11 the DPS and/or other agencies, that what we wanted to 12 -- to reduce any cost for obtaining documents 13 required to vote. 14 "QUESTION: 15 "ANSWER: 16 "QUESTION: 17 steps to make that happen in the bill? 18 "ANSWER: 19 times the implementation of bills are handled by 20 agencies that have the responsibility, and so that 21 was -- that was my conversation with several 22 senators, including Senator Fraser, and I believe I 23 communicated it to the agencies. 24 "QUESTION: 25 implement? Was this in 2009? Yes. To your recollection, did you take any Counsel, I'm -- pardon me, but a lot of Was this left to the agencies to EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "ANSWER: 2 "QUESTION: 3 agencies? 4 "ANSWER: 5 "QUESTION: 6 362, correct? 7 "ANSWER: 8 "QUESTION: 9 the cost of obtaining a Texas birth certificate in 61 Yes. The reduction of cost, was it left to the Yes. It was not in the text of Senate Bill No. Is it fair to say that you were aware of 10 2009? 11 "ANSWER: 12 I'm not -- I don't remember whether I knew, as 13 Exhibit 14 points out, that -- that it was a cost of 14 $22. 15 for obtaining some of the documents, and I wanted to 16 get that down to zero. 17 "QUESTION: 18 House; is that correct? 19 "ANSWER: 20 Senate. 21 "QUESTION: 22 senators in the Senate? 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 "ANSWER: I was aware that there may be some cost. That surprises me. But I knew there was a cost Senate Bill 362 was not passed by the That is correct. We passed it in the Did it pass with a majority of the Yes. And not two-thirds; is that correct? That is correct, because of the rule EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 62 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 change. 2 "QUESTION: 3 "ANSWER: 4 the bill sit from the day it was received from the 5 Senate on March 19th for almost two weeks, until 6 March 31st. 7 the House on April 7th, it sat for almost five weeks. 8 "QUESTION: 9 session to get it passed in the House? Why did it fail to pass the House? With no criticism intended, the House let And then after a -- taking testimony in So there was not sufficient time in the 10 "ANSWER: It was placed on major state calendar. And 11 if I recall correctly, the Democrats chubbed it to 12 death, meaning they talked and talked and talked on 13 routine matters, killing routine bills in order to 14 kill the bill. 15 "QUESTION: 16 ID bill in 2011? 17 "ANSWER: 18 "QUESTION: 19 differently to ensure the passage of voter ID 20 legislation in the 2011 session that had not been 21 done in 2009? 22 "ANSWER: 23 pass it earlier to make it more difficult for the 24 opponents of the bill to chub it in the House. 25 "QUESTION: Did you want the Senate to pass the voter Yes. What did you believe could be done Well, one, take the bill up earlier and Did you play a role in developing the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 63 1 strategy to ensure that the legislature would pass 2 voter ID in 2011? 3 "ANSWER: 4 several hundred per session, I discussed with staff 5 the optimum times to pass voter ID, as well as other 6 bills. 7 "QUESTION: 8 optimum time to pass voter ID in 2011? 9 A As I do on any of our important bills, What was your conclusion about the That it was better for the final passage of 10 voter ID if we could pass it within the 60-day 11 prohibition of where no legislation can be passed. 12 Under the Texas Constitution, the first 60 days, one 13 is prohibited from passing any legislation unless 14 it's placed on emergency call by Governor Perry. 15 "QUESTION: 16 with Senator Fraser filing another voter ID bill? 17 "ANSWER: 18 "QUESTION: 19 "ANSWER: 20 sorry, sometime during the fall of 2010, excuse me. 21 "QUESTION: 22 that discussion involve subject wise? 23 "ANSWER: 24 Senator Fraser to inquire whether he was willing to 25 carry a voter ID bill again. Did you prior to the 2011 session discuss Yes. When did you talk to him about that? Sometime during the fall of 2012 -- I'm Did part of that discussion -- what did What I remember is a discussion with EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "QUESTION: 2 to research how Senate Bill 14 and the requirements 3 therein would impact voters in the State of Texas? 4 "ANSWER: 5 how to determine -- let me reword this. 6 staff to try and determine what effects the bill 7 would have. 8 "QUESTION: 9 "ANSWER: 64 Did you ever consider hiring any entity I directed staff to make inquiries as to I instructed On voters in Texas? Yes. 10 "QUESTION: And was that inquiry or request on your 11 part directed to Mr. Hebert? 12 "ANSWER: 13 "QUESTION: 14 timing, do you believe that you made this inquiry of 15 Mr. Hebert during -- 16 "ANSWER: 17 "QUESTION: 18 "ANSWER: 19 "QUESTION: 20 inquiry that the Secretary of State has a list of 21 Spanish surname registered voters that it maintains 22 based on the last name of the voter? 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 recollection that the secretary -- any awareness that Yes. But just to clarify in the terms of the During 2009. -- during 2009 or '11? Oh, I'm sorry, during 2011. Okay. Were you aware when you made that I don't remember. Put differently, did you have any EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 65 1 the Secretary of State had a list of Hispanic voters? 2 "ANSWER: 3 not; although, logically, if you have a list of 4 registered voters, you can run a sort and see who -- 5 who are -- who have Spanish surnames. 6 "QUESTION: 7 matching, though, I just want to ask you a question. 8 When did you first know that you could sort the voter 9 registration list by last name of the voter to I don't remember whether I knew that or And just putting aside the process of 10 identify Spanish surname voters? 11 "ANSWER: 12 "QUESTION: 13 your office as Lieutenant Governor? 14 "ANSWER: 15 "QUESTION: 16 14, was it initially filed and received as Bill 17 Number 178? 18 "ANSWER: 19 "QUESTION: 20 refile the bill in order to be assigned a lower bill 21 number? 22 "ANSWER: 23 "QUESTION: 24 receiving a low bill number? 25 "ANSWER: It's logical. Have you known that since you've been in Yes. Turning back to the filing of Senate Bill I believe that's right. Did you request that Senator Fraser Yes. What is the significance of a bill The significance is that the rest of the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 legislature knows that it's a priority bill for the 2 Lieutenant Governor. 3 "QUESTION: 4 2011 that it had adopted in 2009 related to the 5 consideration of voter ID legislation? 6 "ANSWER: 7 "QUESTION: 8 "ANSWER: 9 "QUESTION: 66 Did the Senate adopt a similar rule in You mean the special item we talked about? Yes. Yes. Were you present in the Committee of the 10 Whole's consideration of Senate Bill 14? 11 "ANSWER: 12 "QUESTION: 13 you voted in favor of Senate Bill 14 in the Committee 14 of the Whole. 15 "ANSWER: 16 "QUESTION: 17 identification?" 18 MS. WESTFALL: 19 "QUESTION: 20 Exhibit 26. 21 "ANSWER: 22 "QUESTION: 23 "ANSWER: 24 before the Senate on January 25th when we were in the 25 Committee of the Whole. Yes. And I believe you testified earlier that Yes. Could you mark this Exhibit 26 for PL-887 or -- 897. You've been handed what's been marked Yes. Do you recognize this document? Looks to be a transcript of proceedings EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 67 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "QUESTION: Turning your attention to Page 162 of the 2 transcript, and 163, starting at 162, line 17. 3 "ANSWER: 4 "QUESTION: 5 research conducted on the burdens of photo ID 6 requirements and whether they fall disproportionately 7 on racial minorities? 8 "ANSWER: 9 "QUESTION: Yes. Do you see that Senator West asked about Yes. Do you see that? And do you see that 10 Senator Fraser responded with information about 11 polls, concerning support for -- polls in support of 12 identification requirements? 13 "ANSWER: 14 "QUESTION: 15 little bit sidetracked. 16 exchange, do you believe that based on what -- that 17 Senator Fraser's response was responsive to Senator 18 West? 19 "ANSWER: 20 'Was there any research conducted on the burdens of 21 photo ID requirements that may fall 22 disproportionately on racial minorities?' 23 the answer is no, based upon research. 24 sure that Senator Fraser addressed that question. 25 "QUESTION: Yes. Turning back to -- I think we got a Turning back to the Well, Senator West asked, quote/unquote, I think But I'm not During consideration of Senate Bill 14, EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 68 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 was there a request from -- of the Secretary of State 2 for registered voters without a driver license? 3 "ANSWER: 4 that there was? 5 "QUESTION: 6 memory sitting here today. 7 Senator Williams made such a request on the Senate 8 floor? 9 "ANSWER: I believe there was. Are you representing I was just trying to understand your Do you recall that You refreshed my memory. Yes, I do. Yes, 10 I do. 11 "QUESTION: 12 as a resource witness at the hearing on Senate Bill 13 14? 14 "ANSWER: 15 "QUESTION: 16 during her testimony said when are you going to get 17 me the data comparing the registered voters and who 18 have driver licenses? 19 "ANSWER: 20 "QUESTION: 21 Senator Williams to seek this information from the 22 Secretary of State's Office? 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 Williams to seek this information? Do you recall that Ann McGeehan testified Yes, I do. Do you recall that Senator Williams twice Do you recall that? Yes. Do you think it was appropriate for Sure. Do you think it was advisable for Senator EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 69 1 "ANSWER: I have no problem with him asking. 2 "QUESTION: 3 State's Office responded to Senator Williams' request 4 for the number of voters without a driver's license 5 or a person ID card? 6 "ANSWER: 7 fact. 8 "QUESTION: 9 assume that they did? Are you aware of whether the Secretary of I assume they did, but I don't know for a Do you know if your -- and why do you 10 "ANSWER: Because the agencies are -- are well- 11 advised to be responsive to all the members of the 12 legislature including, but not limited to, the senior 13 -- a senior Senator who was -- in 2011, then the 14 secretary -- or the Chair of our Transportation and 15 Homeland Security Committee. 16 "QUESTION: 17 Secretary of State not to provide that information 18 upon request? 19 "ANSWER: 20 provide. 21 "QUESTION: 22 consideration of Senate Bill 14 the number of 23 registered voters without a driver license or 24 personal ID card? 25 "ANSWER: Do you think it would be unusual for the If they had it, I would expect them to Did you learn at any time during the I was told that it was a small number, but EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 70 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 I don't recall the exact number. 2 "QUESTION: 3 "ANSWER: 4 "QUESTION: 5 "ANSWER: 6 "QUESTION: 7 was passed by the Senate? 8 "ANSWER: 9 "QUESTION: Do you recall who told you that? Staff. Your staff? Yes. Did you learn that before Senate Bill 14 I believe I did. By small, did you learn -- what do you 10 mean by small? 11 "ANSWER: 12 "QUESTION: 13 derived? 14 "ANSWER: 15 million registered voters who didn't have driver's 16 license, and the math flows from there. 17 "QUESTION: 18 MS. WESTFALL: 19 "QUESTION: 20 Exhibit 27. 21 just take a look at this document and let me know 22 when you've had a chance to review it? 23 "ANSWER: 24 lot of other things the last three years, the number 25 I gave you was pretty close. Three to seven percent. Do you know how that estimate was I was told that there was approximately one Could you please mark this, Exhibit 27." PL-432. You've been handed what's been marked as It is TX00107733 through 35. Could you Well, for a guy that's been busy doing a And you're looking EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 71 1 anywhere from four to seven percent. 2 "QUESTION: 3 the numbers contained herein? 4 "ANSWER: 5 "QUESTION: 6 information in an oral form from anyone? 7 "ANSWER: 8 just shared with you that I was briefed that -- that 9 up to but not quite a million people. Do you recognize this document or any of No. I've never seen it before. Did this -- did you receive any of this I must have been because the information I And this is 10 showing a number between 650 and 700 -- 650,000 and 11 730,000. 12 But do not have -- do not have -- well, let me just 13 go with the conclusion. 14 of the 12.6 million voters in -- on January 27th, 15 2011, don't have a Texas driver's license or an ID. 16 That number is roughly five percent. 17 "QUESTION: 18 Exhibit 27 that you received information in a 19 different form of these findings? 20 "ANSWER: 21 assumption that what I was briefed by staff prior to 22 -- prior to or simultaneous with the passing of 23 Senate Bill 14, that there was some three to seven 24 percent of the voters in Texas who didn't have Texas 25 driver's license is in fact what this statement says. Well, anywhere between 519 and 844,000. Between 678,000 and 844,000 So you believe based on looking at I believe I received -- it would be my EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 72 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 So now it has -- it is my belief that that number has 2 been dramatically reduced through the efforts that 3 we've implemented through the regulatory agencies, 4 DPS and Health and Human Services. 5 "QUESTION: 6 to focus on the legislative process and what occurred 7 during that process, what was your understanding of 8 how these estimates were arrived at? 9 "ANSWER: Okay. And just because I just want you I was not briefed on that. This is the 10 first time I'm looking at the document that goes into 11 more detail, other than the -- than the raw numbers, 12 less than a million out of almost 13 million voters. 13 "QUESTION: 14 believe you just testified prior to or during the 15 Senate's consideration of Senate Bill 14, did you 16 understand that that information had been derived 17 from a match or a comparison of registered voters 18 with people with driver license, so two different 19 databases? 20 "ANSWER: 21 Mr. Hebert was told that they were having difficulty 22 in taking the list of driver's licenses in the DPS 23 silo and the number of registered voters and names in 24 the Secretary of State's Office and matching them. 25 don't understand why, but I was told that. And when you learned prior to -- I I know that earlier on that -- that EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC And I Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 73 1 Mr. Hebert was told that by -- by -- I believe the 2 person that sent this e-mail. 3 that sometime shortly thereafter, I was told that 4 there was less than a million people that didn't have 5 a driver's license out of the universe of 12.6, by 6 that time, slightly more. 7 it 13 million. 8 five percent of the voters. 9 been made to -- to facilitate Election Identification And then I remember And it looks -- let's call And that's a little -- that's roughly And I know efforts have 10 Cards and that those that want to provide -- that 11 they're going after birth certificates to make that 12 at no cost. 13 "QUESTION: 14 the legislature's consideration of Senate Bill 14, 15 when you got that information from Mr. Hebert that 16 three to seven percent of voters did not have a 17 driver license, did you ask him at that time whether 18 there could be an analysis of those voters with 19 Spanish surnames to respond to the concerns of bill 20 opponents that Senate Bill 14 would have an adverse 21 impact on minority voters? 22 "ANSWER: 23 examples in Indiana, which is a different state than 24 Texas, but based upon the preclearance of the Georgia 25 photo voter ID and the national studies, I did not And just turning your attention back to No, I did not, because based on the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 74 1 believe that there was a -- that a photo voter ID -- 2 ID bill could reduce the minority voters, but it in 3 fact would -- would generate just the opposite 4 effect, increase voting. 5 "QUESTION: 6 putting aside the Hispanic surname analysis, with 7 regard to the three to seven percent of voters 8 without a driver license, did you conduct any 9 investigation of where those voters resided or any Do you think it would have been -- 10 information about them whatsoever? 11 "ANSWER: 12 "QUESTION: 13 opinion issued by the three-judge court in Texas 14 versus Holder in August, 2012? 15 "ANSWER: 16 "QUESTION: 17 that decision by the court? 18 "ANSWER: 19 "QUESTION: 20 Bill 14? 21 "ANSWER: 22 "QUESTION: 23 time, I want to focus your attention on the time 24 between when the three-judge court issued the ruling 25 in August, 2012, to the time when Senate Bill 14 went I don't believe so. Did you have -- are you familiar with the Generally. Did you take any actions in response to No. Did you propose any changes to Senate No. Okay. Just to be clear in terms of the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 75 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 into effect in June, 2013. At that time, is it 2 correct that voter ID was not enforced in the State 3 of Texas? 4 "ANSWER: 5 2013? 6 "QUESTION: 7 "ANSWER: 8 "QUESTION: 9 impersonation that occurred during the 2012 During the time period up until June of Yes. That is correct. Are you aware of any in-person voter 10 presidential election in the State of Texas? 11 "ANSWER: 12 of multiple cases of in-person fraud in the period 13 leading up to the 2009 and 2011 sessions. 14 not aware of any in-person fraud in the 2012 15 presidential election. 16 "QUESTION: 17 between August, 2012, and June, 2013, are you aware 18 of any in-person voter impersonation that occurred in 19 Texas? 20 "ANSWER: 21 "QUESTION: 22 cause voter turnout to increase or decrease from 23 election to election? 24 "ANSWER: 25 "QUESTION: I testified earlier that we were apprised But I'm During any election in the State of Texas No. Okay. Are there other factors that can Yes. What are some of those factors? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 76 Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "ANSWER: Popularity of the candidates, the-then 2 current economic conditions, are two that quickly 3 come to mind. 4 "QUESTION: 5 identification." 6 MS. WESTFALL: 7 "QUESTION: 8 "ANSWER: 9 "QUESTION: I'm going to mark Exhibit 35 for Which is PL-251. Does this poll look familiar to you? No. I can represent to you that this is taken 10 from the University of Texas, Texas Tribune poll. 11 that you were referring to earlier? 12 "ANSWER: 13 polls that occurred in the 2008, 2009, 2010 time 14 period. 15 "QUESTION: 16 particular poll is dated February, 2011. 17 at the 2008 poll as well. 18 MS. WESTFALL: 19 433, which was Exhibit 36 in the deposition? 20 "QUESTION: 21 you? 22 "ANSWER: 23 "QUESTION: 24 taken from the University of Texas, Texas Tribune 25 website, that includes the polling data. Is It is, but I was looking at -- at earlier Okay. And just for the record, this Take a look Could you please pull up Exhibit PL- And does that 2008 poll look familiar to Yes, it does. Okay. And for the record, this also is EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 77 1 "ANSWER: And I looked at a Rasmussen poll, which is 2 a running average of other polls -- 3 "QUESTION: 4 this poll then asked whether respondents would 5 support a law requiring individuals to present a 6 government-issued photo ID in order to be permitted 7 to vote? 8 "ANSWER: 9 similar poll done three years later uses those words. Okay. Does it -- is it fair to say that I can only assume that it does because the 10 "QUESTION: Right. And we'll take a look at that in 11 just a moment. 12 that is Exhibit 36, does this question appear to 13 define what a government-issued photo ID is? 14 "ANSWER: 15 that a government-issued ID is required. 16 "QUESTION: 17 have in front of you, which is Exhibit 35 -- 18 "ANSWER: 19 "QUESTION: 20 "ANSWER: 21 "QUESTION: 22 define what a government-issued photo ID is, does it? 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 include all forms of government-issued photo ID, does Does this -- looking at the 2008 poll The statement says what it says by stating And looking at the 2011 poll that you It's the same wording. -- it's the same wording, correct? To present a government-issued photo ID. Thank you. So this, again, does not That's right. Okay. And Senate Bill 14 does not EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Dewhurst / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 it? 2 "ANSWER: 3 "QUESTION: 4 MS. WESTFALL: 5 "QUESTION: 6 Exhibit 38. 7 "ANSWER: 8 before. 9 "QUESTION: 78 No, it does not. Can you please mark this as Exhibit 38?" Or PL-214. You've been handed what's been marked as Does this pool look familiar to you? The -- I believe I've seen this poll I've seen a poll from Lighthouse. Do you remember that this poll was 10 referenced during the testimony on the debate of 11 Senate Bill 14? 12 "ANSWER: 13 "QUESTION: 14 document, the Bates number ending in 9047, the third 15 page, so the front of the second page. 16 "ANSWER: 17 "QUESTION: 18 ID Requirement.' 19 "ANSWER: 20 "QUESTION: 21 you favor or oppose requiring a valid photo ID before 22 a person is allowed to vote?' 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 define or limit the term 'valid photo ID,' correct? I believe I remember that. If you look at the third page of this Uh-huh. On the very bottom it says, 'Photo Voter Yes. Do you see that the question says, 'Do Yes. This particular poll question does not EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 79 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 "ANSWER: Correct. 2 "QUESTION: 3 documentation to obtain an EIC, were you concerned 4 that low-income individuals would have to pay costs 5 to travel to obtain an EIC? 6 "ANSWER: 7 responsibility. 8 cities. 9 driver's license, if they don't have a driver's Aside from the cost of underlying No. Because that's an individual's Our bus system works in most large Most people have relatives who have a 10 license, and can drive. 11 responsibility to get to a centrally located location 12 and get your free voter ID so you can vote." 13 MS. WESTFALL: 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. SCOTT: Your Honor, at this time, the defense 16 would call Professor Trey Hood. 17 I have no further questions. (Pause) 18 19 But that's an individual THE COURT: Good morning. Right up here. And you can raise your right hand. 20 M.V. HOOD, III, DEFENDANTS' WITNESS, SWORN 21 DIRECT EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. SCOTT: 23 Q 24 bit about yourself. 25 A Professor Hood, take a moment and tell the Court a little Sure. My name is M. V. Hood, the Third. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC I'm also known 80 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 as "Trey," because I'm the third. I'm currently a Professor of 2 Political Science at the University of Georgia. 3 the university for 15 years now, since August of 1999. 4 Q Do you have tenure at the University of Georgia? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And where'd you grow up? 7 A I grew up in Texas, in Waco. 8 Q Where did you go to undergrad? 9 A A And M. 10 Q Where'd you get your Master's? 11 A Baylor. 12 Q And how about your Ph.D.? 13 A Texas Tech. 14 Q And what is your undergraduate degree in? 15 A Political Science. 16 Q How about your Master's and Ph.D.? 17 A Political Science. 18 Q And through your entire career, have you operated as a 19 Professor in the field of political science, or an Assistant 20 Professor? 21 A Yes, at various stages of rank within that, yes. 22 Q What type of classes do you teach currently over there at 23 the University of Georgia? 24 A 25 large American Government section class. I've been at Texas? Currently I'm teaching -- well, right now I'm teaching a I teach honors EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 81 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 classes in American Government. 2 Politics. 3 and also a graduate course in Election Administration. 4 Q Have you written any articles that have been published -- 5 A Yes. 6 Q -- in peer reviewed journals? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Have you written any books? 9 A Yes, I've written one book. 10 Q Have you -- as part of the academic analysis or the work 11 product you've done in the academia, have you undertaken to 12 examine elections and the impact of voter IDs on those 13 elections? 14 A 15 politics and policy. 16 throughout my career on southern politics, racial politics, 17 electoral politics, and election administration, yes. 18 written at least two articles specifically on the Georgia voter 19 ID law. 20 Q What are the peer reviewed publications you've authored? 21 A Well, they're detailed in my vitae. 22 Q Okay. 23 report that was filed with this Court, a declaration. 24 also filed -- or we filed on your behalf a supplemental 25 declaration that you worked -- on the work product and the Yes. I teach courses in Southern I've taught graduate courses in Southern Politics, I mean, my general area of study is American And within that, I've tended to focus And I've Well, you've attached a copy of your vitae to a EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC You've 82 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 things you've derived in this case, correct? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q We're not going to talk about all those things. 4 going to target a little bit of it for the benefit of the 5 Court. 6 the limitation on the opinions that you've developed in this 7 case; is that correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q Those opinions are more fully set out in your report that We're But by no means are the subjects we're addressing today 10 have been filed with the Court. 11 A I would agree with that, yes. 12 Q In addition, next week you're going to be filing a 13 supplemental report as a result of some additional information 14 that's going to come to light, correct? 15 A That's my understanding, yes. 16 Q As part of doing your analysis in this case -- well, 17 strike that. 18 cases? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q What type of cases have you testified in? 21 A A number of them involved voter ID specifically. 22 types of cases involved other times of election administration 23 matters like redistricting or early voting. 24 Q 25 - the effects -- the potential effects of a voter ID law, such You understand that. Have you testified as an expert before in other Other And the process by which someone analyzes a -- the voter - EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 83 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 as SB 14, have you followed the methodologies that you've used 2 in other cases, at least in part? 3 A Yes, at least in part. 4 Q Are the way that you performed your analysis in this case, 5 were those widely accepted and proper in the field of political 6 science? 7 A Yes, I believe so. 8 MR. SCOTT: At this time, your Honor, we would offer 9 Professor Hood as an expert in the fields of American Politics, 10 specifically Election Administration, Election Politics, Racial 11 Politics, and Southern Politics. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 BY MR. SCOTT: 14 Q 15 asked to do in this case? 16 A 17 examine the potential overall impact of SB 14 on the Texas 18 electorate, and to respond specifically to a couple of expert 19 witness reports in this case, specifically Professor 20 Ansolabehere and the expert report from Professors Barreto and 21 Sanchez. 22 Q Did you actually create a no match list of your own? 23 A No. 24 Q So your analysis that you performed in this case was of 25 Dr. Ansolabehere and the United States' Department of Justice Doctor, what were the analysis you performed and were I was specifically asked to do two things. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC I was asked to 84 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 no match list that they created; is that correct? 2 A 3 always using the most recent list that had been provided by 4 Professor Ansolabehere. 5 Q 6 Barreto Sanchez -- Professors Barreto and Sanchez survey. 7 you actually go out and perform a survey of your own? 8 A No, I did not. 9 Q Were you able to, by using the data of the survey results Yes. There are various permutations of that, but I was So now let's turn over to the same questions about the Did 10 from Barreto -- Professors Barreto and Sanchez, able to analyze 11 what they had done? 12 A 13 analysis. 14 Q 15 that correct? 16 A 17 created. 18 Q So what do you think the future effects of SB 14 are? 19 A Well, the future effect if the law was left in place would 20 be to make it pretty difficult to perpetrate in-person voter 21 fraud at the polls. 22 Q Anything else? 23 A I guess secondary to that, you know, it could increase 24 voter confidence in the election system. 25 Q Yes. The dataset from the survey was forwarded to me for And you derived some opinions based upon that dataset; is That dataset and then the no match list that had been Did you do an analysis of the Texas legislature to EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 85 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 determine the purpose that they had in passing SB 14? 2 A No, I did not do such an analysis. 3 Q And you were not asked to, correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q What is the process by which in political science one 6 would undertake to determine what the purpose of a legislative 7 body, such as Texas, in passing SB 14 is? 8 conduct such a study? 9 A How would you Well, I think there's a number of ways you could look at 10 that particular question. You could do empirical analyses of 11 roll call votes or votes on amendments that had been related to 12 SB 14, whether they passed or not. 13 -- you know, do a qualitative study analyzing the actual 14 structure and content of the amendments and what they were 15 offering, as well as, you know, looking at the debate 16 transcripts related to that particular piece of legislation 17 when it was up in committee or for a floor vote. 18 number of ways you could sort of try to hone in on that 19 question. 20 Q 21 Sanchez, did you observe that they had made such an analysis of 22 any of the content -- I'm sorry, of any of the legislative 23 activities? 24 A No. 25 Q And you did not actually look at any of the rest of the You could also look at the So there's a In analyzing the Professors Ansolabehere, Barreto, and EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 86 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 professors who have testified on behalf of the party Plaintiffs 2 in this case, correct? 3 A 4 specifically. 5 Q 6 Texas? 7 A Approximately in June of 2013. 8 Q And do you know how many statewide elections have taken 9 place under the terms of Senate Bill 14? That's correct. I concentrated on those two reports Do you know approximately when SB 14 was implemented in 10 A There have been three statewide elections that have 11 occurred: 12 party primary, and the 2014 party primary runoff. 13 have been various, you know, local and special elections also 14 held post-implementation. 15 Q 16 turnout of the people on Dr. Ansolabehere's no match list? 17 A 18 guess we'll just talk about the most recent no match list so 19 we're all on the same page -- 20 Q Yes. 21 A -- the 786,000. 22 ran it against voter history files from the Secretary of 23 State's Office to determine if anyone on the no match list had 24 turned out to vote in one of these post-implementation 25 elections. 2013 constitutional amendment election, the 2014 And there Did you make an analysis of the people -- well, the Yes. I took the no match list at various points -- and I So, yes, I took that no match list and EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 MR. SCOTT: 87 So, Brian, will you bring up 2 demonstrative aid number 1? 3 Q 4 on the screen? 5 A 6 aggregate numbers. 7 no match list. 8 numbers that that number of Texas registrants lack a valid form 9 of SB 14 identification. Doctor -- I mean, Professor Hood, what are we looking at This is just a graphic that I created to give some overall And the 786,727 is the size of the latest So it's believed from Professor Ansolabehere's 10 Q So let's run through them overall quick, and we'll 11 probably turn back to this. 12 identified as disabled. 13 A 14 identified again through the data matching procedure as having 15 a qualifying disability under SB 14. 16 that matched records in Social Security database or the 17 Veteran's Benefits database, and they have a 50 percent or 18 greater disability rating. 19 registrants. 20 Q 21 is that correct? 22 A 23 Q And -- 24 A So the -- 25 Q -- what's that? But the next I guess bar there is What does that relate to? So this would be the set of registrants who were So these would be people So that amounted to 85,031 The next bar you have on the "X" axis is the 65 and older; That's correct. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 88 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 A Just pretty much exactly what it looks like. 2 177,360 registrants on the no match list that are 65 or older. 3 Q 4 I guess, not skip it completely. 5 since implementation." 6 over to the final, which is the affected population. 7 you've got 512,920. 8 A 9 list that I call the affected population. Okay. Okay. And so let's skip the next one. There are Let's -- although, The next one says "voted once That's 37,592. And then let's switch And What's that number derived from? So I calculate a different subset of the no match And so this would be 10 any registrant on the no match list who was under 65, who had 11 not been able to vote in a post-implementation election, or who 12 did not have a qualifying disability. 13 Q 14 this list is -- Okay. 15 So now one of the things that you've pointed out on MR. SCOTT: And let's go to that. Brian, could you 16 enlarge the voting since implementation? 17 Q 18 Dr. Ansolabehere's no match list who have in fact cast ballots 19 since the implementation of SB 14; is that correct? 20 A 21 unique voters because some of these individuals actually voted 22 in more than one of these elections. 23 voters. 24 Q So there's no duplicates in there? 25 A No. You've identified 37,592 people who have -- were on That's correct. And I'd just like to point out, these are So these are all unique EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 89 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 Q Okay. Yes, there's no duplicates in there? 2 A Yes, there's no duplicates. 3 Q Okay. 4 people voted? 5 A 6 using again data from the Texas Secretary of State's Office. Brian -- well, wait. Have you analyzed how these I was able to parse those numbers out a little bit further 7 MR. SCOTT: Brian, would you bring up demonstrative 8 aid number 2? 9 Q So what are we looking at here, doctor? 10 A So this is a further division of those 37,500 -- 11 12 MR. DELLHEIM: interrupt. 13 14 MR. DELLHEIM: Forgive me. I'm incorrect. I'm sorry. THE COURT: 18 MR. DELLHEIM: It's okay. Thank you. I'm sorry to interrupt, John. 20 21 These were sent out last night from Dave Whitley. 17 19 I'm sorry to We have not seen this demonstrative. MS. ROSCETTI: 15 16 Excuse me, your Honor. MR. SCOTT: Here, I tell you what. let you -- I'll do the ones on the screen. 22 MR. DELLHEIM: 23 I apologize. 24 // 25 // I appreciate it. Richard, let me Here's the -Thank you so much. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 90 1 BY MR. SCOTT: 2 Q So what are we looking at here? 3 A This is the method of voting used by those 37,500, I 4 think, 92, voters that I identified as having voted post- 5 implementation. 6 mail, you can vote early in person, or you can vote on election 7 day at the precinct in person. 8 Q 9 37,000 who had voted in person in the election since the So in Texas, you can cast a ballot absentee by And what percentage were you able to derive out of those 10 implementation of SB 14? 11 A 12 So, again, they may have voted in person more than once even, 13 but they only used the in-person voting. 14 early in-person or election day at the precinct in person. 15 Q 16 person/absentee. 17 in one of the elections, but they also voted absentee. 18 A Right. 19 Q Okay. 20 A But they at least voted in person at least once. 21 Q And then the charts up there above, you've got absentee 22 who you've identified as -- well, explain that how -- they look 23 like the -- 24 A 25 absentee by mail. So 81 percent of the 37,000 voted exclusively in person. So that would be Well, and if we go up one section, it says inSo 1.4 percent of that 37,000 voted in person Well, these -- this is a division of those that voted Of those total votes, 16.2 percent were EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 91 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 absentee ballots cast by those 65 and older, and 1.5 percent 2 were absentee ballots cast by those under 65. 3 Q 4 is using the Department of Justice's numbers and analyzing 5 those numbers, correct? 6 A Yes, using the Secretary of State data. 7 Q Okay. 8 this number of people on the no match list voted? 9 able to come up with an explanation, I guess? And, again, this is not using your derived numbers. This So how do you explain -- how is it possible that Were you 10 A Well, can I make one other point about this -- 11 Q Sure. 12 A -- graphic before I forget. 13 you can take the 81 percent, plus the 1.4 percent, those are 14 individuals that voted in person at least once. 15 have had an SB 14 identification to comply with the law. 16 Sixteen .2 percent of the total number voted absentee by mail, 17 but they were 65 or older, so they qualified to vote absentee 18 by mail. 19 1.5 percent up at the top there, either were qualified to vote 20 absentee by mail and bypass the identification qualifications, 21 or they have -- they've turned out to vote in person and must 22 have a valid ID. 23 essentially not affected because they voted absentee by mail or 24 they made adjustments post-implementation to get an ID. 25 So what we see here is that So they had to So really almost everyone in this graphic, save the So almost everyone in this graphic is either MR. SCOTT: Okay. And so Brian, bring up -- back up EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 92 1 number 1. 2 Q 3 have gone, at least in evaluating Dr. Ansolabehere's list, from 4 786,000 down to the 512,000 number on the far right-hand, 5 correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Okay, all right. 8 9 To put I guess the fine tooth on that, that is why you MR. SCOTT: So, Brian, will you bring up demonstrative number 3? 10 THE COURT: Now, and those demonstratives are in the 11 report as charts, or no, you all just took the numbers in the 12 report and made demonstratives? 13 MR. SCOTT: 14 Which is fine. Yes, ma'am. We will leave one with the Court as well. 15 THE COURT: (Indiscernible) 16 BY MR. SCOTT: 17 Q So what are we looking at right now? 18 A These are just some summary numbers that I created based 19 off of these various categories that we've been talking about. 20 So from Professor Ansolabehere's latest iteration of the no 21 match list, 5.8 percent of Texas registrants are thought not to 22 possess valid SB 14 identification. 23 Q 24 25 So let me -- let's make sure -MR. SCOTT: Q Brian, will you enlarge that? When you talk about 5.8 percent, that is off of EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 Dr. Ansolabehere's no match list. 2 correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q That's the 786,000 and some odd number, correct? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q All right. 7 A Well, that's the potential number of registrants who may 8 be affected by the law. 9 have a valid SB 14 identification or who is under 65 or who 93 It represents 5.8 percent, What's this? So, again, this is anyone who doesn't 10 does not have a qualifying disability or who has not voted 11 post-implementation. 12 registrant population. 13 Q 14 information, correct? 15 -- of your -- what the 500 and some odd thousand souls that 16 you've identified being on the affected population, correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Okay. 19 A Approximately 13 and a half million -- 20 Q Of? 21 A -- Texas registrants. 22 Q Registered voters, okay. 23 A So that is just simply the percentage of registrants 24 thought to have valid SB 14 identification, 94.2 percent. 25 Q So that's 3.8 percent of the total And, again, you derived this using Dr. Ansolabehere's And this number is the net number after And this is out of the overall 13 million -- So what is this chart? Now, that is Dr. Ansolabehere's current -- that's his EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 94 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 estimate. That's not yours, correct? 2 A Correct. 3 Q I mean, that's his match list as a percentage of that 13 4 and a half million people, correct? 5 A Correct. 6 Q All right. 7 chart, the 5.8, gives us the hundred percent of that universe. 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. 10 A This is I guess you could say the segment of the 11 registered population that should be unaffected. 12 these individuals, or these registrants, have a valid SB 14 13 identification, they're 65 and older and can vote an absentee 14 ballot without -- with that excuse. 15 disability under the law or they voted post-implementation. 16 Q 17 population of Texas that's registered to vote is unaffected by 18 the terms -- by looking at Dr. Ansolabehere's list is 19 unaffected by SB 14, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did you do an analysis of the racial makeup of either this 22 5.8 percent or this 3.2 percent? 23 A No, I did not. 24 Q And why did you not do that? 25 A I wasn't asked to look into that question. And that number plus this number of the first So what is this? So, again, They have a qualifying So 96.2 -- it's your opinion that 96.2 percent of the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 95 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 Q And what would you need to have before you were able to do 2 such a racial analysis? 3 A 4 not part of the registration process in Texas. 5 states, but not Texas. 6 race or ethnicity of registrants. 7 undertake that, we would need to have as accurate a rendering 8 as possible of those that we believe not to possess valid 9 identification, because we are going to have to build an Well, in Texas, we don't know a registrant's race. That's It is in some So before -- so we have to estimate But before we could 10 estimate on top of an estimate. 11 Q 12 does that magnify the potential errors? 13 A It could if there are errors, yes. 14 Q Well, does the TEAM database in Texas, which is the 15 Secretary of State's registered voter database, does it 16 identify anywhere in there the race of the registrants? 17 A There's no self-reported racial data in the TEAM database. 18 Q And that's what you were referring some states actually do 19 capture that information, correct? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q For instance, South Carolina and Georgia. 22 A That's correct. And each time you build an estimate on top of an estimate, 23 MR. ROSENBERG: 24 THE COURT: 25 Objection, leading, your Honor. Sustained. (Pause) EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 96 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 BY MR. SCOTT: 2 Q 3 no match list, did you find any errors on the database 4 provided? 5 A Some of the data was erroneous, yes. 6 Q Let's walk through what you found. 7 A Okay. 8 Q Or maybe give a couple of examples for the Court. 9 erroneous, how were you able to determine it was erroneous? So when you were doing your analysis of Dr. Ansolabehere's And by 10 A Just dates of birth, for instance, that were completely 11 nonsensical, you know. 12 Q What's a nonsensical date of birth? 13 A You know, like 1/1/1900, for instance. 14 Q Well, so you take those two or three people, four people 15 out of the system, and then you do your evaluation? 16 A 17 truncated the age range to some kind of valid range, between I 18 think 18 and 105 is where I truncated it. 19 for my analysis that we just looked at, for age, if someone had 20 a completely nonsensical date of birth, you know, they were 21 just coded as missing. 22 Q 23 a date of birth that would make them 114 years old? 24 A 25 the TEAM database, I have some information in my reports on Well, any time I was doing age calculations, yes, I So if someone had -- I couldn't make use of them. So -- well, how many people in Dr. Ansolabehere's list had Well, I don't know specifically on his no match list, but EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 97 1 that. 2 Q Oh, great. 3 A Let me flip over here real quick. 4 were 18,432 registrants on the TEAM database that had a date of 5 birth of 1/1/1900. 6 Q 7 have a date of birth of 114 or more? 8 years old, correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And as a result of your analysis, you pulled those 11 individuals completely off the TEAM database matching ship that 12 you received from the Department of Justice for your analysis, 13 correct? 14 A 15 match list that was eventually sent back to me, if someone had 16 a date of birth that looked like that, I coded it as missing so 17 they wouldn't be a part of the analysis -- 18 Q Okay. 19 A -- because we really don't know how old that individual 20 is. 21 Q 22 he took out the deaths that came from the Department of Public 23 Safety. 24 A 25 the DPS database to remove decedents from the registration What was that? It looks like there So there were over 18,000 people on the TEAM database that I mean, it makes them 114 Well, from -- I think to be very specific, from the no How about deaths? I know Dr. Ansolabehere testified that Do you have any criticisms of that? I mean, he did use the DPS database and reported deaths in EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 98 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 database, that's true. 2 do that, you can only do that where there's a match between the 3 DPS database and the TEAM database. 4 match, you know, we can't remove them as being deceased 5 necessarily. 6 Q 7 limit it to the Department of Public Safety information about 8 deaths, you automatically are only going to pull people off of 9 potential match lists, correct? That's clever. But if you're using the DPS database to So anyone that doesn't You can take -- if you take -- if you 10 A Well, they have to match. 11 Q Because otherwise -- that makes sense, okay. 12 -- how did he adjudicate the deaths on the no match portion in 13 doing his analysis? 14 A 15 can't use an official state data source at that point. 16 think he uses some data from Catalyst. 17 Q 18 removed by Dr. Ansolabehere from the -- using DPS numbers from 19 otherwise that would have been on the match list? 20 A 21 10 of my supplemental report -- and I'm -- I think this should 22 be the latest no match list iteration -- I have a figure of 23 76,882 records have been removed from the TEAM database because 24 they were believed to be deceased. 25 Q So how would Well, he does turn to some other data sources. Again, he But I And do you recall how many people approximately that were I think I have that in my supplemental report. Footnote Did you find any other errors in -- well, how -- what -EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 99 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 were you able to determine how -- what percentage of the TEAM 2 database had full Social Security numbers, nine digits? 3 A Yes, I was. 4 Q What number was that percent-wise? 5 A Fifty-one .09 percent had a full S. S. nine. 6 Q So the other 49 percent just had a partial or no Social 7 Security number attached to it, correct? 8 A Partial or none, yes. 9 Q Okay. So did you make an evaluation of provisional 10 ballots that were cast in the State? 11 A Yes, I did. 12 MR. SCOTT: Brian, would you show Table 12? 13 Q Now, this was a report -- this is in your report. It's 14 Table 12 in your report, correct? 15 A Correct. 16 Q Walk us through a little bit about what this chart is. 17 A This is an analysis of provisional votes that have been 18 cast in Harris County during the 2013 constitutional amendment 19 election and the 2014 primary. 20 Q 21 number of provisional votes were cast and how they -- were the 22 problems with the individual provisional ballots? 23 A 24 provisional votes were being cast; and, in this case, we wanted 25 to look at provisional votes that were being cast for ID And were you able to develop a knowledge of what the Yes. So you get pretty specific in terms of why EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 100 reasons. 2 MR. SCOTT: Brian, would you bring up demonstrative 3 aid number 4, please? 4 Q What are we looking at, doctor? 5 A Well, this corresponds directly to the table we were just 6 looking at. 7 Q Okay. 8 A And it's just a graphical presentation. 9 Q One color's red, one color is blue. What do those 10 reference? 11 A 12 2013 constitutional amendment election. 13 Q 14 analysis? 15 A 16 votes cast in those elections in Harris County, .27 were 17 provisional and .17 in the primary -- .27 in the constitutional 18 amendment election and .17 in the primary election. Okay. Okay. The red represent the 2014 primary and the blue the And so -- and what were the findings of your Well, we can start at the bottom and see that of the total 19 MR. SCOTT: 20 demonstrative. 21 Q 22 percent, correct? 23 A 24 percent; one percent. 25 Q So, Brian, go back out to the greater That's .27 percent of one percent, two-tenths of one Yes. Yeah, the axis ends at one percent, not a hundred So this is not 100. This is -- the one percent on your EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 101 1 chart does not represent 100 percent. This is one percent of 2 the way to a hundred way over here, correct? 3 A Way over there, yes. 4 Q Way over there, okay. 5 population in the 2013 constitutional election -- I'm sorry, of 6 the registered voters in Harris County cast a provisional 7 ballot; is that correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q And in the primary, .17 percent of one -- well about two- So two-tenths of one percent of the 10 tenths again, two-tenths of one percent cast a provisional 11 ballot in Harris County, correct? 12 MR. DELLHEIM: 13 the continuing leading. 14 THE COURT: Your Honor, we're going to object to Sustained. 15 BY MR. SCOTT: 16 Q 17 this next bar relate to? 18 A 19 call it in Texas. 20 and have the provisional ballot converted to a regular ballot. 21 So that's what the next set of bars looks at. 22 So what else did you find? What did you find -- what's Well, of course provisional ballots can be cured, as they So sometimes someone can correct the problem So the next set of bars looks at the number of 23 provisional ballots as a total that were not cured and, 24 therefore, not counted in the end, and that equates to .16 25 percent in the Constitutional Amendment election or .08 percent EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 102 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 in the 2014 Primary. 2 Q And in the next chart up there it says "PB-ID issue." 3 A Okay. 4 Q What's that relate to? 5 A So now I've subset the provisional votes, the provisional 6 ballots specifically for those that were cast because of an ID 7 problem. 8 provisional ballots being cast were for ID reasons. 9 reasons someone might cast a provisional ballot include, you 10 know, registration issues or showing up to vote at the wrong 11 Precinct, so only about 10 to 15 percent of the total 12 provisional ballots were for ID reasons. 13 Again, only typically about 10 to 15 percent of Other And then if you look at that out of the total vote 14 it's .04 percent for the 2013 Constitutional Amendment election 15 or .02 percent for the 2014 Primary. 16 And then, again, if someone casts a provisional 17 ballot for ID reasons they have recourse to bring an ID in 18 before the vote is canvased and have that provisional ballot 19 converted to a regular ballot. 20 So in the end, the last set of bars up at the top of 21 this figure are the percentage of provisional votes cast for ID 22 reasons that were not eventually counted, and that equates to 23 approximately the same percentage. 24 little bit, the aggregate numbers, but percentage-wise it's .04 25 percent of the 2013 Constitutional Amendment election or .02 The numbers go down a EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 103 1 percent of the 2014 Primary. 2 to vote in Harris County on Election Day, these -- the very top 3 bar graphic there, this is the percentage of the voters that 4 were impacted that showed up by SB 14. 5 Q 6 than Harris County? 7 A 8 graphic if I could? 9 Q Sure. 10 A You can see that the number of provisional ballots and the 11 number of provisional ballots cast for ID reasons falls across 12 those two elections, so there are more in the 2013 13 Constitutional Amendment election as compared to the 2014 14 Primary. 15 Q Okay. 16 A No. 17 voters are adjusting to the effects of the new law. 18 Q So let's get back to that other question. 19 A Okay. 20 Q Did you expand your view of provisional ballots? 21 A I did. 22 largest counties by population in Texas. 23 So of those voters that showed up Now did you do an analysis of any other counties other Well, I'd also like to point out one other thing on this Is that because there was a larger turnout? I guess you could -- one argument might be that I did an analysis encompassing nine of the 10 MR. SCOTT: Brian, would you bring up Table 13 out of 24 Professor Hood's report? 25 Q Now what are we looking at? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 104 1 A These are -- this is very similar to the table we just 2 looked at although this encompasses nine out of 10 of the 3 largest counties, again in Texas, and this is only for the 2013 4 Constitutional Amendment election that was held post- 5 implementation. 6 So the one -- the one missing county is Dallas 7 County. I wasn't able to obtain any data from Dallas County. 8 Q Why is that? 9 A To my understanding they never reported any data on 10 provisional ballots. 11 Q Okay, if they did you did not receive it, correct? 12 A I didn't receive it. 13 would have included it in this table. 14 Q Okay. 15 A And let me just say, too, that these nine -- even though 16 these are nine out of 10 counties, 10 largest counties and, of 17 course, Texas has 254 counties, nevertheless this is 53 percent 18 of the total vote cast in this election just out of these nine 19 counties. 20 Q 21 percent -- a sub-analysis of 53 percent of the overall votes 22 cast in that election, correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. 25 If they had and I had it I certainly So -- So what we're looking at on Table 13 is an analysis of 53 MR. SCOTT: So, Brian, will you pull up Demonstrative EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 105 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 A again? There you go. 2 Q What are we looking at? 3 A This is very similar, again, to the other graphic, and 4 this is based off the table we were just looking at, so this is 5 the percentage of provisional ballots cast from the nine 6 counties in the 2013 Constitutional Amendment election, amounts 7 to .21 percent, again, about two-tenths of a percentage point. 8 9 Provisional ballots not counted from these counties amounts to .14 percent. 10 11 Provisional ballots cast specifically for ID reasons amounts to .03 percent. 12 And the same for Provisional ballots cast for ID 13 reasons that were not eventually counted amounts to .03 percent 14 of the total votes cast in these nine counties. 15 Q 16 opinion on how these relate to the results that you've already 17 described over for Harris County? 18 A 19 that showed up to vote at the polls in this particular election 20 in these nine counties I guess we could say that .03 percent 21 were affected directly by SB 14. 22 Q 23 Let's turn our attention to the surveys. 24 A Okay. 25 Q You had an opportunity to review the materials provided by And were you able to make any conclusions or come to an Well, they're in line with those results. Again, of those So did you have an opportunity to review the results? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 106 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 Professors Barreto and Sanchez, is that correct? 2 A 3 ancillary documents and appendix that they included with the 4 report, and the actual data set, the survey data set. That's correct. 5 I had their expert report. MR. SCOTT: I had some So, Brian, will you show Plaintiffs 6 Exhibit 754, and specifically Page 26? 7 sorry, Page 9, Paragraph 26? 8 Q 9 there. And Paragraph -- I'm So I'm going to turn your attention to that last sentence "It is very problematic to assume future behavior on 10 the part of the survey respondents." Do you see that? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Isn't that what Drs. -- or Professors Barreto and Sanchez 13 were doing in their report? 14 A Certainly, yes. 15 Q I mean, why do you find that problematic, or any criticism 16 you might have of that? 17 A 18 survey trying to determine levels of ID possession in Texas and 19 this is in response. 20 to both myself and Professor Milyo, and this is in response to 21 one of his questions but, again, just because certain factors 22 were found to be in place in the survey doesn't mean that 23 things can't change, or that the survey respondents may not 24 change their behavior. 25 ID they might change their behavior to come into compliance Yes, sir. Well, Professors Barreto and Sanchez obviously did a This is in a rebuttal report they issued For instance, if someone didn't have an EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 107 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 with the law. 2 Q 3 in their depositions -- or Professor Barreto's deposition, he 4 said he envisioned that there would be a group of people, and 5 I'm paraphrasing, that would cycle in and cycle out of these 6 groups, but that the numbers would stay constant throughout 7 time and equilibrium. Well -- and in fairness to Professors Barreto and Sanchez, 8 9 MR. DUNN: again on leading which is getting out-of-hand at this point. 10 11 MR. SCOTT: I was going to -- setting up the next question. 12 13 Your Honor, we're going to have to object MR. ROSENBERG: And, in addition, this goes beyond opinions that he's given in his report. 14 THE COURT: Sustained as to leading. 15 BY MR. SCOTT: 16 Q 17 little more detail on the Barreto-Sanchez survey. 18 A Okay. 19 Q Were you able to replicate the Barreto-Sanchez survey? 20 A So I received the data set of the survey responses and 21 with various additional variables appended to it that 22 Professors Barreto and Sanchez had created, and the first thing 23 I tried to do was just simply replicate the results that they 24 got that they reported in their expert report. 25 is no. And so -- well, let's turn our attention, let's focus in a And the answer I was able to get close, but I was never able to get EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 108 1 right on their numbers. 2 Q 3 somebody else's survey using their data? 4 A Certainly. 5 Q How many times? 6 A I mean, certainly, you know, in an academic setting many 7 times. 8 by other researchers many, many, many times over the course of 9 my academic career. Well, had you ever attempted before to try and analyze I mean, I -- I've made use of other data sets created 10 Q 11 hundreds or -- 12 A 13 of all kinds of data sets. 14 Q 15 to match the data with the survey? 16 A 17 someone else has done, yes. 18 Are we talking more than two, 200? I'd say more than 100, certainly. Are we talking I mean, I've made use And were you able, on most of those occasions, to be able I was able to typically -- to typically replicate what MR. SCOTT: Brian, if you'll pull up Page 30 of 19 Professor Hood's report, Table 10B? 20 Q What are we looking at? 21 A Well, this was my effort to, or this is my report and my 22 effort to replicate their findings from their survey. 23 Q 24 we're looking at. 25 A And so walk the Court through a little bit about what So we could compare this back to 10A which is just the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 109 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 report of their survey findings from their expert report that I 2 included. But this is my attempt to replicate their survey 3 findings. So, for instance, if you look at the column over to 4 the right, Percent of Registered Voters Lacking SB 14 ID, and 5 you look down the column, it says "Survey Weight." 6 survey weight created by Professors Barreto and Sanchez and 7 that was appended to their data set, so I'm using that weight 8 variable. 9 That's the And in this case the numbers I derived from their 10 survey are that 3.3 percent of total respondents -- total 11 registrants, I guess you could say, lack SB 14 identification, 12 and that would include 2 percent of Anglos, 4.5 percent of 13 Blacks and 5.7 percent of Hispanics. 14 Q 15 survey data to develop some opinions in this case? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And -- okay. 18 their survey weight, or did you come up with a different survey 19 weight? 20 A 21 report every finding I have on all of these tables using both 22 sets of weights. 23 Q Okay, so -- 24 A So the Reconstructed Weight column is the weight variable 25 I created, the Survey Weight is the variable that Professors So did you then undertake to do an analysis using their Yes, I went beyond just this, yes. And so did you limit, though, did you use Well, I came up with my own survey weight, but I always EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 110 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 Sanchez and Barreto created. 2 Q 3 specifically the differences between the two efforts, correct? 4 A So where there's differences you've identified Yes. 5 Yes, it's all laid out there. MR. SCOTT: So, Brian, if you'll turn to Page 33, and 6 Table 10D? 7 Q Professor, what are we looking at? 8 A Well, this is -- this is where I undertook an analysis 9 specifically of the variable or the indicator they created in 10 the survey that tells us whether or not the respondent has a 11 SB 14 identification or not, and I did some recalculations on 12 that particular indicator. 13 Q Okay. And walk us through the chart. 14 A Okay. Again, it's very similar to the previous chart. 15 The two columns to the left are the Voting Eligible Population, 16 the two columns to the right are the Registrant Population, and 17 then under that there's the results for both their survey 18 weight and my survey weight. 19 So, again, using this recalculated ID Possession Rate 20 variable, if you look down the column where it says "Registrant 21 Survey Weight," we see that 1.8 percent of -- of respondents to 22 the survey are thought not to have valid SB 14 identification, 23 and that would include .9 percent of Anglos, 3.3 percent of 24 Blacks and 3.1 percent of Hispanics. 25 Q So if we use -- let me make sure I understand that. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC If 111 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 we're talking about percent of registered voters affected by 2 SB 14 using Barreto and Sanchez's data, that would be this 3 column on Table 10B under "Survey Weight," is that correct? 4 A 5 data. 6 Q Okay. 7 A That's using their weight variable I think specifically, 8 technically. 9 Q Well, this -- everything we're talking about uses their Okay. And so using that you were able to develop that 10 what percentage of Whites are without -- based on their survey, 11 are without a proper photo ID for purposes of complying with 12 SB 14? 13 A .9 percent. 14 Q The same question for persons identified as Black in the 15 survey? 16 A 3.3 percent. 17 Q And the same question with regard to folks who have 18 identified themselves as Hispanic in the survey? 19 A 3.1 percent. 20 Q And the same question for -- well, why is there no 21 information for Asians and Native Americans? 22 A 23 mean, any of these tables are going to be zeros for those 24 particular racial groups, Asians and Native Americans and 25 anyone that was put into this category of "Other Race." Well, there is information, they are just all zeros. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC I And 112 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 so, in other words, they have 100 percent possession rates for 2 those lower categories. 3 Q Is that what the survey results were? 4 A Yes. 5 Q So it's not zero percent? 6 So it's 100 percent of Asians, based upon the survey results 7 from Drs. Barreto and Sanchez, possessed proper photo ID to 8 comply with SB 14, is that correct? 9 A Yes. Yes. I was looking at this wrong. I don't think you were looking at it wrong. Again, 10 this is -- this is nonpossession rates, so the nonpossession 11 rates zero so you can, of course, infer from that that the 12 possession rate is 100. 13 Q 14 able to say she had -- she falls into this category of surveys, 15 right, we'd expect her to have a photo ID? 16 A 17 So if my wife, who is a Native American, showed up and was Based on the survey data, yes. MR. SCOTT: So let's turn to Chart 11A, if we could, 18 on Page 34. 19 Q What are we looking at? 20 A This is -- this is where I'm, you know, again, this is all 21 using the survey data from Professors Barreto and Sanchez. 22 This would be respondents to the survey who lack 23 proof of citizenship. So, for instance, lack a birth 24 certificate. 25 already has SB 14 identification, and I'm adding to them anyone So what I'm doing is I'm counting anyone that EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 113 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 that is reported in the survey that they have a birth 2 certificate or, for instance, a US certificate of citizenship, 3 some document that would -- that would prove citizenship. 4 And then I'm looking at who is left. So that the 5 people left are those that either, A, don't have an ID; or, B, 6 on top of that don't have underlying documentation for proof of 7 citizenship. 8 Q 9 able to derive using Professors Barreto and Sanchez's data from So let's walk through some of the results that you were 10 their survey. 11 A 12 Survey Weight column, which is -- which is their survey weight, 13 .9 percent of respondents to the survey had neither qualifying 14 SB 14 documentation or some underlying documentation for proof 15 of citizenship. 16 category, that would be 1.2 percent of Anglos, .8 percent of 17 Blacks and .6 percent of Hispanics although, again, I could 18 point out in this particular column that none of the 19 differences between Anglos and Blacks and Anglos and Hispanics 20 are significant, statistically significant. 21 say there's really no difference between Whites, Blacks and 22 Hispanics on this particular metric from the survey. 23 Q 24 Professors Barreto and Sanchez used, correct? 25 A Okay. So, again, using registered voters, again under the And if you break that down by racial or ethnic So we could almost And that's using the Survey Weight that Dr. -- that Yes. Yes. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 114 1 Q Now you did a reconstructed weight and you came up with a 2 little different numbers, is that correct, for those same 3 fields? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And so walk the Court through those. 6 A Well, if you use the weight that I constructed, 1 percent 7 of the total registrant population would have neither SB 14 8 identification or proof of citizenship, and that would include, 9 if you break it down by race or ethnicity, 1 percent of Anglos, Those would be the correct numbers, yes. 10 1.7 percent of Blacks and .9 percent of Hispanics. 11 Q 12 any other races, based upon the data in the survey that was 13 conducted, those folks would have -- or expected, at least 14 based upon those results, to have 100 percent of their 15 population to have birth certificates, correct? And if we look at Asians and Native Americans, as well as 16 MR. DELLHEIM: Objection, leading -- ongoing leading. 17 BY MR. SCOTT: 18 Q 19 what percentage, based upon the data that you evaluated from 20 Barreto and Sanchez of Asians and Native Americans who were in 21 possession of documents that would give proof of citizenship by 22 race? 23 A I did. 24 Q What was that? 25 A Using the survey data, again, 100 percent of Asians or 100 Okay. Did you render -- did you render an opinion as to Using -- EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 115 1 percent of Native Americans, or 100 percent of those that were 2 -- that were other respondents placed in this Other racial 3 category, had SB 14 identification. 4 Q 5 correct? 6 A 7 And that, again, is based only on the survey results, Yes. This is all just the survey. MR. SCOTT: Could we -- Brian, turn to Table 11B on 8 Page 35, please? 9 Q What are we looking at? 10 A This is similar to the table we were just looking at, but 11 I've added some other categories to what we were just looking 12 at. 13 So this is a -- in the end this is who may be 14 affected by SB 14, and that would include someone that doesn't 15 have SB 14 identification; they don't have underlying 16 documentation for citizenship; they are under 65 and, 17 therefore, can't vote absentee with that excuse; they don't 18 have a qualifying disability and they haven't voted in a post- 19 implementation election. 20 Q And would you go through with the Court -- 21 A So who's -- so basically who's left after we take those 22 categories out. 23 Q 24 Barreto's and Sanchez's survey weight along with their survey 25 data? And what were the findings based upon using Professors What were you able to derive? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 116 1 A Well, again, let's just look at percent of registered 2 voters in the Survey Weight category and look down that column, 3 so .6 percent of the registrant population fall into, again, 4 what I have defined in this particular slide as being affected 5 by SB 14. 6 percent of Blacks and .5 percent of Hispanics, and zero percent 7 of Asians, zero percent of Native Americans and zero percent in 8 the Other racial category. 9 Q And that would include .6 percent of Anglos, .8 Were -- so were you able to find any inaccuracies in -- 10 well, I'll tell you what, let's take a peek at Question Number 11 10. 12 MR. SCOTT: Brian, can you bring up Question Number 13 10 in the Barreto-Sanchez survey? I think it's on Page 10. 14 And if you'd enlarge that, please, sir? 15 Q So what are we looking at? 16 A This is a question from the survey. 17 instrument that was -- that was developed by Professors Barreto 18 and Sanchez, and I did receive a copy of the survey instrument 19 as well. 20 Q And -- 21 A And this is a question that ask about two specific forms 22 of SB 14 identification. 23 have either a State of Texas concealed handgun license or a 24 United States Citizenship Certificate with their photograph. 25 Q This is the survey It asks survey respondents if they So in -- first of all, I guess, is the US Certificate of EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 117 1 Citizenship with photograph, is that a proper form of ID under 2 the terms of SB 14? 3 A Yes, that would be compliant with SB 14. 4 Q In the survey data, how many respondents answered yes to 5 possessing a US Certificate with a photograph? 6 A From my calculations it was 22 survey respondents. 7 Q And how many of those 22 respondents were coded in the 8 survey data as possessing the Senate Bill 14 IDs? 9 A I only saw 10 that were coded as possessing this 10 particular form of identification. 11 Q 12 coded as possessing SB 14 ID, how were they, in fact, coded in 13 the data? 14 A 15 identification. 16 Q 17 persons that were coded incorrectly? 18 A Of the 12? 19 Q Yes, sir. 20 A Yes. 21 data. 22 identified as Hispanic. 23 Q 24 nonpossession rates in the survey? 25 A How were the other 12 coded -- or who should have been They appeared to be coded as not possessing SB 14 Were you able to determine the racial breakdown of those Yes, from -- again, all of this is from the survey It appeared that 11 of 12 of those respondents had self- What effect would that have had on the Hispanic Well, it would, in my opinion, artificially drive up the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 118 1 nonpossession rate for Hispanics. 2 Q By how much? 3 A Well, we can -- we can look back at my tables, that may be 4 the easiest way -- 5 MR. SCOTT: How about we pull up 10B, Brian? 6 Q Is 10B the right one? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And what are we looking at? 9 A Well, again, this is -- this is my effort to replicate Yes, sir. 10 Professors Barreto and Sanchez's report. 11 Registered Voter column, Survey Weight column, for Hispanics 12 5.7 percent of Hispanics are thought to not be in possession of 13 SB 14 identification. 14 Q Okay. 15 A And then, again, I re-calculated the ID possession rate 16 variable to include those 12 individuals who had a US 17 Certificate of Citizenship with photograph who had not been 18 categorized as having ID as having ID, so I re-coded them. 19 So let's look at the I also re-coded an individual who supposedly had a 20 State ID card, but I could find no evidence in the survey that 21 they had a State ID card, so I actually coded them from having 22 ID to not having ID. 23 Q Okay. 24 A So I went the other way with that particular case. 25 Q And what is the new number that you would get if -- on EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 119 Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 this survey? 2 A Well, that's in 10C so -- 3 MR. SCOTT: Brian, would you pull up 10C? 4 A 10C uses my recalculated ID possession variable. So, 5 again, it would be 3.9 percent, so including those 12 cases 6 would lower the Hispanic nonpossession rate to 3.9 percent. 7 Q 8 5.7 percent? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Were you able, in the survey -- as a result of the survey 11 results, to derive how many people in the survey identified 12 themselves as having EICs? 13 A 14 asked about in the survey. 15 Q And what were you able to derive? 16 A I believe it was 2.1 percent reported they had an Election 17 Identification Certificate from the survey. 18 Q 19 percent of 13 million -- 13 and a half million people? 20 A Well, let me -- I think it's in my report. 21 Q Okay. 22 A Let me -- so 2.1 percent of the total registrant 23 population would be 284,852. 24 Q 25 and Sanchez had done, we would expect that there would be So by excluding them the number went from 3.9 percent to Yes. That was one of the forms of identification that was So approximately what is 2.1 -- what's approximately 2 So if we were to extrapolate out what Professors Barreto EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Direct / By Mr. Scott 120 1 284,000 plus or minus persons with election ID certificates as 2 we sit here today, correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Were -- were you here to hear the Department of Public 5 Safety testimony that there's been 279 EICs issued to the 6 State? 7 A 8 survey was conducted I did know that there were less 200 EICs 9 that had been issued at that time. I wasn’t here for that testimony, no. At the time the 10 Q So as a result of using that survey material, you were 11 able to derive that Professors Sanchez and Barreto's survey 12 results are over -- at least with regard to EICs, overstate the 13 actual reality by about a thousand times, 1,020, is that 14 correct? 15 A 16 over-estimates -- it's greatly over-estimated in the number of 17 EICs, yes. I didn't convert that into a percentage but, yes, it's 18 MR. SCOTT: Pass the witness. 19 THE COURT: Let's go ahead and take a 15-minute MR. SCOTT: Your Honor, we've marked the sections 20 21 break. 22 that we did on that chart. I don't know if you want them for 23 your (indiscernible), but you may have already got them. 24 THE COURT: Which ones? 25 MR. SCOTT: The ones that we were going through on EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 121 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 the technical demonstratives? 2 3 THE COURT: THE CLERK: 5 All rise. (A recess was taken from 10:12 a.m. to 10:27 a.m.; parties present) 7 MR. DELLHEIM: 8 THE COURT: 9 MR. DELLHEIM: 10 I don't know if Plaintiffs want to see that, but -- 4 6 Oh, yeah, that's fine. Good morning, your Honor. Good morning. Richard Dellheim for the United States. 11 CROSS EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. DELLHEIM: 13 Q Good morning, Dr. Hood. 14 A Good morning, Mr. Dellheim. 15 Q Long time no see. 16 I want to talk to you a little bit about some of your 17 testimony regarding turnout and voter ID laws. 18 Professor Bullock published a study in 2012, correct, 19 purporting to show the differences in turnout by race after 20 Georgia implemented its voter ID law, correct? 21 A That’s correct. 22 Q And one of the findings of that study was your conclusion 23 that the implementation of Georgia’s photo voter ID law 24 directly resulted in an across-the-board depression in voter 25 turnout, correct? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC You and 122 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 A That’s correct. 2 Q Okay. 3 racial and ethnic categories, correct -- the White voters? 4 A Excuse me. 5 Q Okay. 6 African American voters dropped, correct? 7 A Correct. 8 Q Turnout for Hispanic voters dropped, correct? 9 A Correct. 10 Q And you pinned that dip in turnout directly to the 11 implementation of the Georgia voter ID law, correct? 12 A 13 to try to study the effects, if any, of the implementation of 14 Georgia’s voter ID law. 15 Q Okay. 16 A So yes. 17 Q Okay. 18 submitted to this court in this case, you state, do you not, 19 that there’s been a growing body of scholarly research that 20 indicates -- excuse me. 21 this case, you cite a series of studies and you conclude that 22 voter ID laws, in fact, do not impact turnout, correct? 23 A 24 effect, no. 25 Q And the depression in voter turnout was for all Yes, sir. So turnout for White voters dropped. Turnout for That was the sole purpose of that academic endeavor, was And -- but on Pages 10 and 11 of the report you Strike that. On -- in your report in Many of the other studies I cite couldn’t find a specific Okay. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 123 1 A That’s true. 2 Q Okay. 3 believe one from 2008, correct? 4 A 5 even more recent than that. 6 Q Well, let me ask -- 7 A I don’t want to hold things up but -- but anyway, as many 8 -- I did a search and even the most recent studies I included 9 in this. And those are studies from 2006 and 2007 and I I think -- yes, I think one of them is fairly -- perhaps So -- 10 Q 11 least as of 2012 that there’s been a growing body of scholarly 12 research that indicates that those more likely to be affected 13 by voter ID laws are minority voters? 14 A 15 literature. 16 Q 17 court in front of three federal judges in the South Carolina 18 case? 19 A Not specifically. 20 Q Okay. 21 your deposition testimony in that case. 22 Okay. But you would agree with me, would you not, that at Well, from -- not from my sweeps of the academic Okay. Well, do you recall testifying to that effect in Let me pull up -- to remind you, let me pull up MR. DELLHEIM: 23 that deposition? 24 Q Can you see Line 4? 25 A Yes, sir. Would you please pull up Page 233 of EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 Q 2 research that indicates that those were more likely to be 3 affected by the adoption of photo ID or minorities?” 4 Do you recall your answer, sir? 124 The question is, “There’s a growing body of scholarly 5 A The answer is, “That is one of the findings from a number 6 of academic studies.” 7 Q Okay. 8 A I should say that there’s some academic studies that I 9 talked about in this most recent report that have been produced 10 since that case occurred. 11 Q Okay. 12 A Yes. 13 Q Okay. 14 answer? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q Okay. 17 those without ID are less prone to participate in elections 18 compared with those who possess photo ID, correct? 19 A 20 articles really on the Georgia voter ID statute and one of them 21 was before the law was implemented and so we looked at those 22 registrants in Georgia who we thought lacked ID and looked at 23 their previous voting behavior patterns. 24 Q Okay. 25 A And, yes, they typically had lower turnout rates than Yes. And that case was in 2012, correct? And that was the question asked and that was your You’ve also written that it’s a known fact that That was a finding from a -- we did a series of EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 125 1 those that were thought to possess ID. 2 Q 3 about the concept of the costs of voting. 4 what I mean when I say “costs of voting,” sir? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q Okay. 7 means in political science? 8 A 9 the effort required to participate in the electoral process -- Okay. And you have also testified and written in the past Do you understand Explain to the Court briefly what that concept Well, it’s not necessarily a monetary cost but it can be 10 Q Okay. 11 A -- whether that’s registering to vote, casting a ballot, 12 et cetera. 13 Q 14 imposes, the less likely a voter may be to turn out to vote, 15 correct? 16 A 17 could potentially overcome that for some voters. 18 Q 19 that you can’t think of a political science concept that is 20 more firmly established with respect to voter turnout than that 21 one. 22 A I believe so, yes. 23 Q Okay. 24 A Certainly related to the literature -- academic literature 25 on voter turnout. Okay. And the theory is that the more costs the system Yes, in general. Okay. I mean, there are other factors that And you will -- and you told me in your deposition Is that an accurate summary of your testimony? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 Q Okay. 2 costs. 3 A If they don’t already possess an ID, yes. 4 Q Okay. 5 correct? 6 A 7 identification. 8 Q And that’s even when the photo IDs are free, correct? 9 A Yes. 126 And you just mentioned examples of some of the Requiring an ID to vote imposes costs on voters, right? And requiring photo IDs imposes a cost on voters, Again, yes, if they don’t already possess the proper photo Well, that -- yeah, I was about to say that’s -- 10 we’re not necessarily talking about a monetary cost at this 11 point. 12 Q 13 office some place and pay money as a prerequisite to obtaining 14 a photo ID, that also imposes costs, correct? 15 A 16 the citizen to obtain a free -- in this case an EIC in this 17 state. 18 Q And money, too, right? 19 A You mean in terms of travel? 20 Q Well, I just -- part of my question was, if a voter had to 21 go to a government office and pay money to obtain an underlying 22 documentation as a prerequisite to obtaining an ID -- as a 23 prerequisite to casting a vote, that imposes costs, correct? 24 A 25 document like a birth certificate, I believe it would cost 2 to Okay. And requiring a citizen to travel to a government That would require effort on the part of the registrant or If, for instance, they didn’t have a proof-of-citizenship EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 127 1 $3 in the state of Texas to obtain that, yes. 2 Q Okay. 3 A Well, I believe I testified at my deposition that I 4 believe that Texas should waive the fee completely for birth 5 certificates, not for anyone that walks into an office and 6 wants a birth certificate but for those who want a birth 7 certificate to receive an EIC. 8 Q 9 this court that there are instances where citizens born in 10 Texas who want to obtain an EIC do not have the fees for a 11 birth certificate waived, for instance, in the case of a 12 delayed birth certificate? 13 A I did not hear that testimony, sir. 14 Q Okay. 15 this case showed that some voters may have to pay $47 to obtain 16 a birth certificate in order to obtain an EIC in order to be 17 able to cast a ballot that counts? 18 A 19 reducing the cost of a birth certificate to zero for those that 20 need an EIC, then yes. 21 Q 22 Remember that conversation we had? 23 A 24 characterized SB 14 as a poll tax. 25 Q Okay. Does that cause you any concerns? And are you aware that there’s been testimony in Were you aware of that? Would it cause you any concern if the evidence in Well, again, having said what I just said in terms of Yeah. And we had talked that this is akin to a poll tax. We had a conversation. I don’t believe that I Well, do you remember me asking you what the difference EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 128 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 was between a poll tax and charging voters fees to get 2 underlying documentation? 3 the differences that you found between what Texas does now and 4 the traditional poll tax? 5 A I remember -- I can recall some of that. 6 Q Okay. 7 -- that one difference was that the poll tax money went to the 8 schools while here it goes to whatever entity issues birth 9 certificates? Do you recall your testimony about Do you recall testifying that the poll -- that the Do you recall that? 10 A Well, it’s traditionally a poll tax, you know, going back 11 into the mid-1960s and before. 12 Typically the poll tax went to the local school system. 13 what I was talking about. 14 Q 15 Texas does now and the traditional poll tax was that under the 16 old system, everyone had to pay the poll tax and here just 17 people without SB 14 ID, right? 18 A 19 documentation as a poll tax, per se, but, yes, someone may have 20 to pay several dollars to get a birth certificate. 21 true. 22 Q 23 scientists look at voting costs and why we’re talking about it 24 now. 25 A Okay. That’s what I’m talking about. That’s And the other difference you found between what Well, again, I wouldn’t characterize paying for underlying That’s You’ve testified the reasons that -- why political It’s because they directly impact turnout, right? Yes, sir. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 129 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 Q Okay. And the more the institutional costs go up, the 2 less likely a voter is to turn out to vote, right? 3 A 4 that can counterbalance the cost for voters. 5 Q 6 with respect to your study in Georgia that the reason that you 7 attributed the dip in turnout in Georgia was because of the 8 cost that the voter ID law imposed on voters. 9 that, sir? Typically, yes. Okay. Okay. I mean, again, there are other factors And your -- and you testified in the Billips case Do you recall 10 A Well, let me say that the Billips case occurred when 11 Georgia’s voter ID law was enjoined and I was referring to a 12 study that we conducted prior to implementation. 13 trying to dodge your question. 14 a disconnect there. 15 Q 16 that. 17 A Oh, okay. 18 Q -- category and we’ll move on. 19 correct, that socioeconomic status is highly correlated to 20 turnout? 21 A It’s related to turnout, yes. 22 Q Okay. 23 occupational prestige have typically turnout for elections at 24 higher rates than those without those things, correct? 25 A Okay. So I’m not I think there’s a little bit of But it is well-established that -- well, strike I want to go just a little bit farther in this -- But it’s well-established, Those with higher income, education and That’s correct. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 130 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 Q Okay. And it’s also -- you’ve also demonstrated that 2 historically minority voters tend to turn out at lower rates 3 than Anglo or White voters, correct? 4 A 5 patterns for decades. 6 but I’ve studied it over decades and those patterns, in 7 fairness, have been changing as of late. 8 I would make that statement currently. 9 Q Okay. 10 A Historically, yes. 11 Q Okay. 12 socioeconomic status that minority voters have in comparison to 13 Anglo and White voters, correct? 14 A 15 that’s the only factor related to minority turnout rates. 16 Q 17 this. 18 independent analysis to determine the rates at which African 19 American and Hispanic voters turn out to vote in Texas in 20 comparison to White or Anglo voters? 21 A For this specific case? 22 Q Yes. 23 A No, sir. 24 Q Okay. 25 cost that SB 14 imposes on Texas voters without ID? Well, I’ve -- in fairness, I’ve studied minority voting I mean, I haven’t done it for decades But historically, that has been true, correct? And that’s in part because of the lower Well, that might be one factor, yes. Okay. So I don’t know that I’m not going to say And you have found -- strike that. Let me ask you When you were working this case, did you do any Did you do any empirical statewide study of the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 131 1 A No, sir. 2 Q Did you look at any geography data or any demography data 3 or any socioeconomic status data of any kind? 4 A I looked at some geographic data. 5 Q What did you look at? 6 A I was looking at the distribution of centers that could 7 deliver EICs around the state. 8 Q 9 EICs, correct? Okay. You offered no opinion in your report regarding 10 A Well, there are some opinions. 11 Q Forgive me. 12 effectiveness of the EIC program in Texas, correct? 13 A Not beyond a description of what it is -- 14 Q Okay. 15 A -- no. 16 Q So let me ask again. 17 whatsoever of socioeconomic status of Texas voters, correct, 18 for your opinions in this case? 19 A That’s correct. 20 Q Okay. 21 race or ethnicity in Texas for your work in this case? 22 A No, sir. 23 Q Did you do any study of statewide turnout patterns over 24 time in Texas for your work in this case? 25 A You didn’t offer any opinion regarding the Did you -- you’ve done no study That’s correct. Did you do any empirical study of turnout rates by No, sir. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 132 1 Q Have you done any empirical study of the rates at which 2 Texas registered voters have ID permissible under SB 14? 3 A Could you say that one more time, please? 4 Q Sure. 5 which Texas registered voters have or don’t have ID that is 6 permissible under SB 14? 7 A 8 exercise. 9 Q Did you conduct any data matching in this case? 10 A Well, no, I didn’t -- again, just to clarify, I didn’t do 11 the actual data matching but I had the results of the data 12 matching. 13 Q Okay. 14 A So I guess it depends on where you want to say the word 15 “analysis” comes in. 16 Q 17 Carolina case where you wanted to determine the relative rates 18 at which voters possessed ID, you did your own data matching, 19 correct? 20 A Yes, I did in that case. 21 Q And in the Wisconsin case, you did your own data matching, 22 correct? 23 A That’s correct. 24 Q And in the Georgia case, you relied upon data matching for 25 your analysis in that case, correct? Have you done any empirical study of the rates at Well, that was the sole purpose of the no-match list Okay. In prior work that you’ve done in the South EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 133 1 A Yes. 2 Q And you performed some data matching in that case, 3 correct? 4 A Yes, that’s correct. 5 Q Okay. 6 A That’s correct. 7 Q And you’ve done no regression analyses in this case, 8 correct? 9 A That’s correct. 10 Q And you’ve done no homogeneous precinct analyses in this 11 case, correct? 12 A That’s correct. 13 Q And you’ve done no Spanish surname analysis in this case, 14 correct? 15 A That’s correct. 16 Q Okay. 17 light of ID laws in other states like Georgia and South 18 Carolina; is that right? 19 A I do a comparison, yes. 20 Q Okay. 21 the Texas ID law is very similar -- I think that’s the words 22 you used -- very similar to Georgia’s and South Carolina’s, 23 correct? 24 A 25 that’s probably -- probably pretty close. You’ve done no data matching in this case, correct? Your report asked this Court to consider SB 14 in And you’ve tested -- and your report states that I can’t remember if that’s the exact terminology but EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 134 1 Q I’ll represent it to you -- 2 A Okay. 3 Q -- but we can check. 4 A Okay. 5 Q And I think that on Page 8 of your report -- or I’m sorry 6 -- Page 6 of your report, you say that they’re very similar 7 because, number one, they all require government photo ID and, 8 number two, they have similar procedures for voters who lack 9 ID. Does that -- 10 A Those were the similarities between the three states, yes. 11 Q Okay. 12 that if the Texas statute is not, in fact, very similar to 13 those of the other states, then the comparisons that you make 14 are not particularly meaningful? 15 A 16 and differences for these. 17 Q 18 second. 19 states require the presentation of a limited set of government 20 photo IDs; is that right? 21 A On Page 8? 22 Q I believe it’s Page 8. 23 this. 24 A Okay. 25 Q You’re welcome to look for it but let me ask you this. And would you agree with me that the statutes -- Well, I -- you know, in fairness, I point out similarities Okay. Well, let’s talk about the Georgia statute for a You say that on Page 8 of your report that all three I’m sorry. But it’s not -- let me ask you EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 135 1 It’s your view that Texas and Georgia and South Carolina ask 2 voters to present a limited set of IDs, correct? 3 A Well, there is a certain subset of IDs, yes. 4 Q Okay. 5 polling place is important, is it not, because it’s kind of the 6 gateway to the polling place? 7 strike that. 8 that are accepted, it directly impacts who is allowed to come 9 into the polling place and cast a ballot on the machine that And the type of IDs that a state will accept at the If a voter isn’t permitted -- If the state limits the types and variety of IDs 10 counts, right? 11 A It could, yes. 12 Q Okay. 13 Texas, right? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. 16 A I guess it somewhat depends on whether you count a 17 Veterans’ Affairs card under the military ID category or not 18 but yes. 19 Q Okay. 20 A That’s correct, yes, sir. 21 Q Okay. 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q A -- like an EIC, right, like -- 24 A A free form of -- yes, a free form of voter 25 identification. So Texas -- there’s seven forms of ID accepted in A current driver’s license, correct? And a free state voter identity card? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 Q Okay. 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q A valid U.S. passport? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q A valid U.S. military ID? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q Okay. 8 correct? 9 A Yes. 136 And a state identity card? And South Carolina accepts those same things, All three of those states accept those forms of 10 identification. 11 Q Okay. 12 it? It allows a photo ID issued by any branch, department, 13 agency or entity of the state, correct? 14 A That’s correct. 15 Q Up and down the state, any state agency or entity that has 16 a photo ID, anyone can use that to vote, correct? 17 A That’s correct. 18 Q And that’s not true in Texas, correct? 19 A No, that’s not true in Texas. 20 Q Okay. 21 photo issued by any branch, department, agency or entity of any 22 other state, right? 23 A That is correct, yes. 24 Q Okay. 25 A No, sir. And Georgia opens the gate a little wider, doesn’t And in Georgia, Georgia will accept a valid ID with Texas doesn’t do that, right? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim Okay. 137 1 Q And Georgia will accept as permissible ID to vote 2 any photo -- any ID with photo issued by any branch, 3 department, agency or entity of the U.S. Government, correct? 4 A That is correct. 5 Q Okay. 6 A That’s correct. 7 Q And Georgia will accept a valid employee ID card with 8 photo issued by any agency, branch or entity of any county, 9 correct? And Texas doesn’t do that? 10 A Correct. 11 Q Okay. 12 A Correct. 13 Q And any employee ID from any of the 50 states, correct? 14 A An -- I guess an employee ID issued by a state 15 government -- 16 Q Yes. 17 A -- is that fair? 18 Q Yes. 19 A Okay, all right. 20 Q And Texas doesn’t do any of that, correct? 21 A No. 22 Q Okay. 23 They accept college and university IDs, correct? 24 A 25 of the state per se but there is a subset of state universities And any municipality, correct? And we can go on and on about what Georgia accepts. Well, there’s a subset, yes -- not any college ID outside EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 138 1 and colleges where student IDs can be used. 2 Q 3 licenses, right? 4 A That is true, yes. 5 Q And they will accept tribal ID, correct? 6 A That’s true. 7 Q Okay. 8 A That’s correct. 9 Q Okay. 10 A Okay. 11 Q South Carolina does something a little bit different from 12 Georgia, doesn’t it? 13 think has been dubbed an ameliorative provision called the 14 “Reasonable Impediment Provision,” right? 15 A That’s correct. 16 Q And you’re very familiar with that, are you not? 17 A Probably more familiar than most people, yes. 18 Q Okay. Okay. 19 That’s true. And Georgia will also accept expired driver’s And Texas doesn’t accept any of that, right? Let’s switch to South Carolina for a second. South Carolina has a provision that I And most people, they didn’t want to be, I guess. Would you agree with me that under South Carolina 20 law, anybody who lacks a photo ID can cast a provisional ballot 21 that will count so long as the voter states the reason for not 22 having ID? 23 A 24 Affidavit, yes, they’ll -- they can cast a provisional ballot 25 which will be counted unless the provisional ballot -- or Well, if they go in and execute the Reasonable Impediment EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 139 1 unless the affidavit is proven to be false. 2 Q Correct. 3 A Forgetting your ID though is not a reason to cast a 4 Reasonable Impediment Affidavit in South Carolina. 5 Q Um, but -- 6 A Not having an ID would be. 7 Q Okay. 8 A If you forget your ID, then you have to cast just a 9 regular provisional ballot and try to get it cured or counted So -- 10 by bringing ID back up to the County Canvass Board. 11 Q 12 require ID -- 13 A Right. 14 Q -- if you don’t have your card, you may have to -- 15 A Georgia or -- 16 Q Correct. 17 A -- Texas even, yes. 18 Q Okay. 19 your voter -- your non-photo voter registration card and you 20 tell the poll worker that you don’t have an ID because you have 21 -- you work or you’re too busy or you have kids or any number 22 of reasons, those reasons will not require the state to reject 23 that ballot, right? 24 A 25 a false affidavit. Well, just like in most states, if you don’t -- if they But if you go -- in South Carolina, if you have Correct unless for some reason, that elector is executing EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 140 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 Q Are you aware of any ameliorative provision in any photo 2 ID law in any state in the country that is as broad and 3 forgiving of those who do not have acceptable photo ID so that 4 those voters can cast ballots that count? 5 A As the one in South Carolina? 6 Q Yes, sir. 7 A No, I’m not. 8 Q Okay. 9 accepts a broader array of acceptable photo IDs than Georgia? Now, are you aware of any state in the country that 10 A I think Mississippi comes close. 11 array of IDs that they allow. 12 Q 13 accepts a broader array than Georgia? 14 A Well, not broader, no. 15 Q Okay. 16 A Okay, thank you. 17 Q I want to talk a little bit about -- more about your 18 Georgia study because as I read your report, I think -- and you 19 can correct me if I’m wrong but I think the purpose of you 20 talking about the Georgia study in your report is that you 21 would like this Court to graft the results of that study onto 22 Texas in terms of its consideration of SB 14. 23 statement? 24 A 25 but sitting here today, I don’t know of any other academic Okay. They have a pretty broad But my question was, do you know of any state that I think that’s fair. Is that a fair You know, I could be proven wrong EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 141 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 studies that have really done a before-and-after test to the 2 implementation of a voter ID law. 3 Q 4 Georgia in 2004 before Georgia implemented its voter ID law and 5 then you looked at turnout data from 2008 after Georgia 6 implemented its voter ID law, correct? 7 A That’s correct. 8 Q And you studied general elections for this study; is that 9 right? Okay. So -- And for that study, you looked at turnout data from 10 A That’s correct. 11 Q And why did you study general elections? 12 A I thought they would be a good gauge. 13 the law was cleared for implementation in ’07. 14 election was a presidential election -- 15 Q Okay. 16 A -- in ’08 and so to have a counterpart to that, I went 17 back to the 2004 election. 18 Q 19 provide the richest data, correct? 20 highest turnout election, right? 21 A 22 easily proven. 23 Q 24 2004 and 2008 turnout data, let’s talk about that for a second. 25 For your study, you didn’t have a no-match list from 2004 based Okay. Well, there was -So the next And that was -- and general elections tend to It’s the most -- the Well, I would say they have the highest turnout. Okay. That’s And the methodology that you used to compare the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 142 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 on 2004 data, right? 2 A 3 again, this wasn’t done for a court case. 4 were publicly accessible data that we had to work with. 5 received a no-match list from the Georgia Election Board -- or 6 State Election Board in Georgia that they had run for the 7 purposes of an educational campaign and so that was the no- 8 match list in 2007 we were using. 9 Q No. If I can explain, we received a no-match list -- and, Okay. So all these data We So you began with a no-match list that Georgia 10 created in 2007? 11 A That’s correct. 12 Q Okay. 13 created by matching voter registration information from 2007 14 against a Department of Motor Vehicles database from 2007, 15 correct? 16 A That’s correct, yes. 17 Q Okay. 18 A The state did the match. 19 match. 20 Q 21 data, correct? 22 A Correct. 23 Q And then you -- and then from there, you looked at the 24 voter histories for people on the no-match list to see whether 25 they had turned out to vote in 2004 and to see if they turned Okay. And you matched the data -- and that list was I didn’t do that particular So you have a match and a no-match list from 2007 EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 143 1 out to vote in 2008. 2 A Well, there’s an intervening step and -- 3 Q Okay. 4 A -- we had copies of the voter registration databases in 5 Georgia from 2004. 6 electorate in 2004 and we had -- after the election, of course, 7 we got a copy of the voter registration database from 2008 in 8 Georgia and then we added to that voter history files that tell 9 us whether or not those registrants turned out to vote or not. Okay. Is that a fair statement? Tell us that. So we had a snapshot of the Georgia 10 Q So you -- for your 2004 list, you, in fact, didn’t 11 really know who lacked an ID in 2004, did you? 12 A No, we were using the 2007 data. 13 Q Okay. 14 have gotten lots of IDs, correct? 15 A It’s possible, yes. 16 Q Okay. 17 of Motor Vehicle IDs, right? 18 A 19 while since I’ve looked at it -- now, these were registrants 20 who had a driver’s license or state ID card -- 21 Q Okay. 22 A -- in Georgia. 23 Q But not any of the array of IDs that we just discussed, 24 correct? 25 A Because between 2004 and 2007, lots of people could And the IDs we’re talking about are just Department From what -- from my memory of the match -- it’s been a That’s correct. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 144 1 Q Just two? I’m sorry -- 2 A Those two, yes. 3 Q Okay. 4 fact, had or didn’t have an ID in 2008, correct? 5 A No, not at that particular point in time. 6 Q Okay. 7 had not been scrubbed for deceased voters, correct? 8 A The no-match list? 9 Q Yes. 10 A Are you asking if the State had scrubbed that? 11 Q Well, I’m asking if the State had scrubbed it or you, 12 having gotten a list, determined whether it had been scrubbed 13 for deceased persons. 14 A Well, I didn’t scrub it for decedents. 15 Q Okay. 16 A I can say that. 17 Q And as you sit here today, you don’t know whether the 18 State did? 19 A I’m unsure. 20 Q Okay. 21 to ask you this. 22 make one thing clear and that’s that Georgia’s voter ID law 23 suppressed turnout across the board for all racial and ethnic 24 categories, right? 25 A And for your 2008 data, you didn’t know who, in And the no-match list that you worked from, that I want to look at Table 2 of your report and I want However derived, the results of your study That’s correct, yes. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 145 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 Q Okay. 2 MR. DELLHEIM: Will you bring up Table 2, please? 3 It’s Page 13. 4 Q 5 registrants by identification, status and race, right? 6 A That’s correct. 7 Q Your models -- your turnout models were based on estimates 8 of turnout, right? 9 A Table 2 is the probability of turnout of Georgia I think -- they were based on actual turnout. I mean -- 10 and what I -- we did model turnout but what I’m saying is that 11 the underlying data we had were essentially -- was essentially 12 population data. 13 database, not part of it. 14 Q Okay. 15 A But these are statistical models, to be fair. 16 Q These are statistical models -- 17 A Yes. 18 Q -- and the turnout rates that you report in Table 2 are 19 systematic overestimates of the actual turnout, are they not? 20 A 21 to overestimate turnout. 22 Q 23 Carolina, correct -- 24 A Yes. 25 Q -- in the South Carolina case? We had the entire voter registration And you took the -- What we do know with the turnout rates are, yes, they tend Okay. And that’s what you testified in court in the South And the systematic EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 146 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 overestimates, do you recall testifying that they are 2 especially large for those without ID? 3 A I don’t specifically remember that. 4 Q Um -- 5 A But if I said that, then I said that. 6 Q Well, I don’t -- you don’t need to take my word for it. 7 I’m just -- if you don’t remember, I can show you your 8 testimony. 9 A I don’t specifically remember that. 10 Q Okay. 11 MR. DELLHEIM: Do you want to bring up Page 236 of 12 the South Carolina trial testimony, please? 13 Q 14 voters who lack voter ID; isn’t that right?” 15 your answer, sir? 16 A “Yes, they’re larger.” 17 Q Okay. 18 answer you gave? 19 A That’s correct, yes. 20 Q Okay. 21 turnout data in Table 2 are, in fact, systematic overestimates? 22 A I don’t think it indicates that, no. 23 Q And you don’t want this Court to rely on systematic 24 overestimates to reach a conclusion in this case, do you? 25 A “QUESTION: Lines 5 and 6. The overestimates are especially large for Do you recall And that was the question asked and that was the And does your report in this case note that the Well, I’d like the Court to take the study into account. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 147 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 Q Okay. 2 MR. DELLHEIM: Let’s look at Table 3, if we could. 3 That’s the next page. Okay. 4 Q 5 turnout figures by raising ID possession in 2004 and 2008, 6 correct? 7 A 8 not derived from statistical models. 9 Q Table 3 of your report shows what you say are the actual That’s correct. Okay. So these are just percentages. They’re And the turnout data -- let me ask you this. You 10 didn’t include these data in your 1012 published study, did 11 you? 12 A No. 13 Q Why didn’t you include the actual turnout as opposed to 14 the systematic over-estimation of turnout? 15 A 16 studying phenomena, we model it using statistical models. 17 the study probably would have been susceptible to the criticism 18 that I didn’t have a statistical model to study turnout if I 19 had not done it. 20 Q Okay. 21 A And you make choice about -- you know, academic articles 22 are short. 23 what not to include. 24 Q Okay. 25 A So we included the previous table in that academic Well, again, typically in the social sciences when we’re So And -- You have to make choices about what to include and EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 148 1 article. 2 Q 3 your conclusion that, in fact, the voters who were most 4 impacted by the implementation of Georgia’s voter ID law were 5 not minority voters but, in fact, White voters, correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Q Okay. 8 A Again, this is using a -- what’s called a “Policy Impact 9 Analysis” which in the end calculates a difference-of-the- And when you calculated the results of the turnout, it was White voters were slightly more effective. 10 difference measure. 11 pre-implementation in 2004 who have an ID and who don’t have an 12 ID calculating a difference measure there, going across the 13 implementation cycle to the next election and comparing those 14 with and without ID and looking to see if there’s a gap there 15 and then taking those two difference measures and creating a 16 difference-of-the-difference measure which is what I call the 17 “inner election difference” which is over on the far right. 18 So what we’re doing is comparing those So what we’re trying to do is to see -- we know 19 there’s a gap between those that turn out with ID compared to 20 those that have turned out without ID. 21 implementation cycle where the voter ID law was implemented, we 22 want to see if that gap gets bigger or smaller and the negative 23 sign there indicates that it’s gotten bigger between the two 24 groups. 25 Q So across the Okay. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 149 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 A So -- 2 3 MR. DELLHEIM: May I approach the witness to give him my calculator? 4 THE COURT: 5 (Counsel approached) 6 BY MR. DELLHEIM: 7 Q 8 than I. 9 charts really say. Yes. There is probably no one in this courtroom worse at math So I want a little help in breaking down what these Would you tell the Court what the 10 difference in turnout was between 2004 and 2008 for all voters 11 with ID? 12 A It’s about 2.9 percent. 13 Q Okay. 14 A Well, almost 3 percentage points. 15 Q Points? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Okay. 18 and 2008 for all voters without ID? 19 A About 8 points. 20 Q Okay. 21 was the difference between 2004 and 2008 turnout? 22 A 13.1. 23 Q Okay. 24 A 4.6. 25 Q Okay. And if I read it right -- Two percentage points, correct? Yes. And what was the difference in turnout between 2004 And let’s do it for White voters without ID. What And what was it for White voters with ID? And let’s do it for African American voters with EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 ID. 2 according to your study? 3 A Plus 3.4. 4 Q And you did that by subtracting 71.2 from 67.8? 5 A Right. 6 Q Okay. 7 was the turnout differential between 2004 and 2008? 8 A Okay, 3 points. 9 Q Okay. 10 A Okay. 11 Q -- and without? 12 A 4.5 for those with ID -- 13 Q Uh-huh. 14 A -- and 11.4 for those without ID. 15 Q Okay. 150 What was the turnout difference between 2004 and 2008 16 So it increased 3.4 percentage points. And for African American voters without ID, what And last, what about Hispanic voters with ID -- MR. DELLHEIM: Tim, let’s pull up -- 17 Q We’ve taken those numbers that you testified to in your 18 deposition and you just affirmed them here and put them in this 19 chart. Take a look -- 20 MR. DELLHEIM: And, Tim, let’s add in the results 21 that Dr. Hood just testified to. 22 Q Is that correct, sir? 23 A It looks correct, yes, sir. 24 Q Okay. 25 your conclusion at the bottom of Page 14 of your report that Now -- and these are the figures that you based EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 151 1 the law impacted White voters more than any other racial or 2 ethnic group, correct? 3 A 4 but, again, we’re comparing different groups here. 5 Q 6 fair to say that you looked at those numbers and you saw that 7 the drop in turnout between 2004 and 2008 for White voters was 8 13.1 points and that was the highest turnout differential for 9 any of the racial or ethnic groups? Well, not exactly. Okay. I mean, I used these turnout figures But in terms of the absolute numbers here, is it 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. 12 sciences is to look at the weight of impact on different groups 13 and not just absolute numbers. 14 A 15 particular study, we were using a particular type of research 16 design which called for the comparisons that we made that are 17 written about in the study. 18 Q Okay. 19 A I mean, you’re talking about another way that we could 20 make comparisons but that was not the thrust of this particular 21 study. 22 Q 23 the accepted practice in social sciences is to look at the 24 weight of impact and not just on the absolute numbers? 25 A And you agree that the accepted practice in social Would you agree with that? Well, again, in this -- well, to qualify, in this Well, let me ask my question again. Would you agree that It depends really. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 152 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 Q Okay. 2 A I mean, I have to qualify. 3 Q Okay. 4 A Again, in this particular research design, no. 5 types of research, yes. 6 Q Okay. 7 A Sure. 8 Q -- reflected here, correct? 9 A Sure. 10 Q Okay. 11 A Okay. 12 Q Would you please calculate for all voters without ID what 13 the percentage is? 14 divide -- I think you testified at your deposition that you 15 divide 8 by 47.6, correct? 16 A Yes, that’s correct. 17 Q Okay. 18 without ID. 19 A Okay. 20 Q Did you do that, sir? 21 A I’m working on it. 22 Q Oh, sorry. 23 A So the differential is 13.1 divided by -- 24 Q -- 52.1. 25 A Yes, 25.1. In other Well, we can easily calculate the percentages -- Let’s look at your calculator, please. And I think by doing that, I think we So it’d be 16.8. And do that for me, if you would, for White voters Okay. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 153 1 Q Okay, 25. 1? 2 A Did I do that wrong? 3 at the wrong table. 4 Q 5 your deposition you divide 13.1 by 52.1. 6 A That's 25.1. 7 Q Okay. 8 25.2. 9 A Oh, okay, sorry. 10 Q Is that fair? 11 A Yes, that's fair. 12 Q Okay. 13 A Okay. 14 Q I believe you testified you divide 3 by 44.8. 15 A 6.7. 16 Q And for Hispanic voters without ID. 17 divide 11.4 by 34.4? 18 A 33.1. 19 Q Okay. 20 A I'm getting 33.13, so. 21 Q Okay. 22 exhibit is incorrect then, correct? 23 A Well, from what I'm getting here. 24 Q Okay, all right. 25 by percent as opposed to absolute numbers using your numbers we 13.1 divided by -- maybe I'm looking No, I think -- well, it's 13.1. I think you testified at I believe you testified in your deposition it was I think it was rounded up. And let's do it for African Americans without ID. Would you please And that could be rounded up to 33.2; is that fair? Well, we'll call it 33.1 and that 33.2 on this Is that right? So when we calculate the rate of change EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 154 1 find that in fact it's not White voters who are more affected 2 by the implementation of the Georgia voter ID law but in fact 3 it is Hispanic voters, correct? 4 A 5 many different reasons and that's why it's important I'd argue 6 to compare turnout between those that have ID and those that 7 don't have ID as I did in the study. 8 Q 9 was to look at the impact on racial groups, correct? Calculated this way, yes. Okay. Again, turnout rates vary for I understand, but one of the purposes of your study 10 A That's correct, yes, we did. 11 Q And your study said and you've repeated it in your report 12 in this case to this Court that the racial group most affected 13 by the implementation of Georgia's voter ID law was in fact 14 White voters and according to your calculations in fact it is 15 Hispanic voters, right? 16 A Well, using those calculations, yes, that's correct. 17 Q Okay. 18 Something occurred in 2008 that impacted turnout in a rather 19 dramatic way; is that right? 20 A Yes, I'd say so. 21 Q Okay. 22 that the 2008 election was and I will -- I think I will capture 23 your words accurately -- 24 A Okay. 25 Q -- but you can tell me if I don't. Now something -- you can take that down, thank you. And you've written and you've testified in court "The 2008 election was EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 155 1 momentous, historic, no equivalent in history, a huge event." 2 Obviously -- I'm quoting from your Achieving Validation 3 article -- 4 A Okay. 5 Q -- "Obviously this contest for African Americans in 6 particular has no equivalent in the history of presidential 7 politics." 8 9 Do you know what I'm talking about, sir? A Yes, that's -- those are descriptions in that article of 10 that particle election. 11 Q 12 that voters in 2008 "acted in an environment that provided a 13 unique stimulus, the candidacy of the charismatic Barack Obama. 14 Obama's candidacy had an especially great impact on African 15 Americans, a group usually classified among those less inclined 16 to participate." Okay. 17 And you also wrote in your piece with Dr. Bullock Does that sound familiar to you, sir? 18 A Which -- which article with Dr. Bullock? 19 Q This is your 2012 article with Professor Bullock. 20 21 Can you bring that up, please, Tim, page six? A 22 Okay. I've got you. MR. DELLHEIM: It's at the bottom. 23 Q "Georgia is like other American's acting in an environment 24 that provided a unique stimulus" -- 25 A Right, gotcha. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 156 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 Q Does that sound familiar to you? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Your memory is refreshed? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. 6 this as the Obama effect, correct? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q And it was in your opinion unique, right? 9 A Well, I think I stated this in my deposition. You and other political scientist have referred to I guess 10 it's up to time to see how unique it was. 11 Q 12 you not that the Obama effect sparked unprecedented African 13 American turnout for that election, right? 14 A I think that's pretty easy to document, yes. 15 Q Okay. 16 want to ask you a couple of questions. Okay. 17 But at least in 2008 you would agree with me would Now for your 2008 study of turnout in Georgia, I Number one, you've testified that the voter ID law 18 suppressed turnout for all racial and ethnic groups including 19 African Americans, correct? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q But at the same time it galvanized turnout for African 22 Americans on the other, correct? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q Okay. 25 for the Obama effect? Did you attempt in any way to isolate or control EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 157 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 A Well, I think we've talked about this a number of times 2 and I argued that the research design we use where we have a 3 before and after time point helps to control for what we call 4 history effects and this would be an effect of history, this 5 particular candidacy and this particular election cycle. 6 talking about President Obama of course. 7 I'm So my argument is that to the extent possible the 8 research design that we employ helps to control for that. 9 Q Okay. You don't know to what degree minority voters 10 overcame the burdens imposed by the Georgia photo ID law to in 11 fact -- strike that. 12 Let me ask it I hope in a clear way. You don't know to what degree minority voters 13 overcame the burdens associated with the voter ID law versus 14 those who did not overcome those burdens, correct? 15 A 16 which one of those minority voters did not have an ID -- we can 17 look at their turnout rates. 18 Q That wasn't really my question. 19 A Okay. 20 Q So let me ask it different way. 21 Well, if we're correct in assuming that we know who -- Your study did not attempt in any way to isolate 22 those voters who came out to vote and were galvanized to come 23 out to vote because of the Obama effect, right? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q So you -EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 158 1 A You're talking about specifically the article on the 2 implementation of the Georgia voter ID law, is that -- 3 Q 4 your Achieving Validation article -- 5 A Well, there's the -- 6 Q You have done no -- and let's focus for a second, sir, on 7 your study with Dr. Bullock and in your report in this case. Any article, any study. 8 9 Your 2012 study with Dr. Bullock, You did not in any way isolate or identify those voters who turned out to vote because of the unique, momentous, 10 historic conditions in that particular election, correct? 11 A 12 fashion the answer is no. 13 Q 14 that case or for that study? 15 A Well, yes, just about every study we do does. 16 Q Okay. 17 correct? 18 A 19 exposed to "the Obama effect." 20 Q 21 your report presents and that your study presents of those 22 depressed by the Georgia photo ID law and those galvanized to 23 turn out, you don't separate those issues at all, correct? 24 A 25 if that's what you're driving at. If you're asking if I can categorize voters in that You performed a multi-variable regression analysis for And you didn't isolate for the Obama effect, Well, again, everyone in the 2008 election cycle was But you didn't disentangle those -- the conundrum that Well, we don't know at the individual level if that's -- EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 159 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 Q Okay. 2 A I mean I don't -- I don't know someone's motivations for 3 instance at the individual level in that study. 4 Q 5 2008 would have been substantially lower had it not been for 6 what you have called the Obama effect? 7 A I would assume it would be lower. 8 Q Now turnout -- 2008 turnout data was critical to your 9 analysis in that case, correct? Okay. Would you agree -- Would you agree that minority turnout in Georgia in We know what it was. 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q And in this case which involves 2000 [sic] turnout data 12 you were -- your report does not mention the Obama effect as a 13 stimulus for turnout, correct? 14 A I don't think so, no. 15 Q But in another case where you were asked to analyze 16 minority turnout data from 2008 you cited the Obama effect did 17 you not? 18 recall that, in the Florida case? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. 21 trends by race in Florida, correct? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q Can we bring up page eight of the report from Florida? 24 25 You called the 2008 election an outlier. And you even made a chart showing the historical Do you remember that, sir? Do you recognize this, sir? A Do you It's been awhile but yes. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 160 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 Q Okay. And in this case where on behalf of your client -- 2 your client had an interest in showing that minority voters 3 were not sparked to turn out in high numbers generally. 4 created this charge and you said indeed when the 2008 general 5 election is removed from the analysis the numbers more 6 accurately historical -- historic trends. 7 chart and it says does not include the 2008 election, right? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q And you -- in your report in that case to the Court and You Then you create the 10 your testimony in that case to the Court was that 2008 was an 11 outlier. 12 A 13 several years ago, you know. 14 Q Okay. 15 A Again, as I pointed out when we talked a few weeks ago, I 16 don't know that that's necessarily the case now. 17 get more elections out from 2008. 18 Q 19 deal out of the anomalous nature of African American and 20 minority turnout in 2008 in one case and dismiss that turnout 21 as an outlier, an anomalous, and ask the Court to ignore it, 22 but in this case you're silent about it. 23 A 24 an outlier. 25 in Georgia, I can say that in 2008 of course Black turnout goes Do you remember that? Well, that's correct although that was -- it's been I mean as we I guess what I am wondering about is why make such a big Well, at one point in time I thought that could have been Again we talk about things, trend lines. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC At least Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 161 1 up and if you look at the 2010 midterm compared to the 2006 2 midterm, Black turnout is elevated over that level and then in 3 the 2012 turnout numbers in Georgia at least, Black turnout is 4 pretty analogous to the 2008 turnout. 5 point if we're seeing a new pattern or not. 6 Q 7 accept your opinion about that, correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q Can you pull up the Florida opinion please? Okay. 10 So I don't know at this The Florida court, three federal judges, did not This is page 28 of Florida versus U.S., 885 F.Supp 2d 11 at 326. The Court seemed to have concerns about many of your 12 opinions in that case but I just want to show you this one. 13 "Finally, we reject Professor Hood's intention that 14 the 2008 general election was an outlier that should 15 be ignored. 16 asserts that the anomalous circumstances surrounding 17 the 2008 election, mainly the historic candidacy of 18 Barack Obama the first African American presidential 19 candidate representing one of the two major political 20 parties in the United States, coupled with the 21 intensity of interest in President Obama's candidacy 22 among African American voters, account for the spike 23 in early person voting turnout among African 24 Americans in 2008." 25 Again, sir, why would you one case where the effect More specifically, Professor Hood EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 162 1 of the law on minority turnout was an issue tell a Court that 2 2008 was an outlier that should be ignored and in another case, 3 this one, tell the Court that 2008 turnout data is critical to 4 the analysis and the impact of a voter ID law? 5 A 6 changing on this particular matter as we've been able to amass 7 more election data since 2008. 8 Q Well again, I mean in fairness my opinion has been You can take that down, thank you. 9 You testified earlier that the point of relying on 10 your Georgia study in this case is that you hope that the Court 11 will graph the results of what you found in Georgia and apply 12 them to Texas. 13 Texas and Georgia are obviously very different 14 states, correct? 15 A They're different in some respects, certainly. 16 Q Different demographics, right? 17 A They don’t have the exact same demographics, no. 18 Q Okay. 19 evaluate the turnout figures you present in your Georgia study 20 and apply them to Texas the Court would need to know Georgia's 21 historic turnout patterns and match them against Texas's? 22 A That would be one way to look at it, yes. 23 Q You didn't do that here though did you, sir? 24 A No, I didn't do that analysis. 25 Q Have you conducted any empirical study of turnout in Texas Would you agree with me that for the Court to EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 163 1 that compared 2008 turnout data with 2004 turnout data? 2 A Not in Texas, no. 3 Q Any empirical study of Texas's turnout trends 4 historically? 5 A Well, I've looked at historical voting patterns in Texas. 6 Q Okay. 7 A I mean as part of my -- my work on southern politics. 8 Q Okay. 9 A Texas is included under that umbrella. 10 Q Fair enough, fair enough. 11 Let me ask it a different way. Did you -- did you prepare any empirical study of 12 Texas turnout trends historically for your work in this case? 13 A No, I did not. 14 Q Okay. 15 study of -- well, any comparison of Texas ID possession rates 16 by race or ethnicity with Georgia ID possession rates by race 17 and ethnicity? 18 A Not by race -- race and ethnicity. 19 Q Would you agree with me that for the Court to evaluate the 20 turnout figures you present in your Georgia study and apply 21 them to Texas the Court would need to know how Georgia's racial 22 and ethnic populations compare to Texas's? 23 A 24 large minority populations. 25 Q Did you -- did you endeavor to launch any empirical Well, to a certain degree, yes. Both states have fairly And you've not compared Georgia demographic data with EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 164 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 Texas, correct? 2 A In this case? 3 Q Yes. 4 A That's correct. 5 Q And no analysis of Texas geography in comparison to 6 Georgia geography, correct? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q And you've testified there's -- you've done no data 9 matching, regression analyses, homogeneous precinct analyses, 10 or Spanish surname analyses for your work in this case, 11 correct? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q And no study of socioeconomic statistics by race or 14 ethnicity in Texas? 15 correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q No study of the Obama effect in Texas for your work in 18 this case, correct? 19 A 20 no. 21 Q 22 travel to get to a DPS office or an EIC office, correct? 23 A 24 conduct an independent study on that. 25 Q I think you mentioned that before, Well, no, I didn't study turnout patterns in Texas, so, Okay. And no study of the distances Texas voters need to I looked at data regarding that question. Okay. I didn't Right, and based on all of that, is it true that EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 165 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 you cannot state to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty 2 that the data you report from Georgia regarding what you say is 3 the impact of Georgia's voter ID law has any applicability to 4 Texas? 5 A 6 one of few states we can look at in terms of what happens when 7 a government issued photo ID law is implemented. 8 Q I remember you -- 9 A They're not the same state. 10 Q I remember you saying this at your deposition. 11 that, I think it was "There's probably some applicability to 12 Texas." Well, I think it has some applicability because again it's 13 I agree with that. You said Do you recall that, sir, saying some -- 14 A I think there's -- yes, I probably said something like 15 that. 16 Q And you repeated something very similar just now, right? 17 A Yes. 18 Q The "probably has some applicability" standard is not one 19 recognized by social science, is it? 20 A 21 article, no. 22 Q 23 provide an empirical basis to believe that the data that you 24 report from your Georgia study in any way applies to Texas, do 25 you? I probably wouldn't use that terminology in a research Okay. And you've conducted no empirical studies to EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 166 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 A No, I wouldn't say so, no. 2 Q Okay. 3 times, under oath about what's become known as the Hood 4 principle? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Okay. 7 the Court to believe something that you have not proven by 8 empirical study, right? 9 A And you recall testifying in other cases, in other And under the Hood principle you would never ask I think that the principle states something as I like to 10 see empirical verification, something like that. 11 Q 12 line 9. Let's bring up page 151 of Dr. Hood's deposition please, 13 And the Hood principle as we refer to it in open 14 court in South Carolina and it was referred to elsewhere is 15 that you would not -- you would not ask the Court to accept any 16 opinion that you have not proven by empirical study. 17 Do you recall that testimony, sir? 18 answer? 19 A I did state that, yes. 20 Q Okay. 21 question that day? 22 A This is from our deposition in Austin? 23 Q And that was your answer that day? 24 A Yes, yes. 25 Q Okay. And what was your And was that question asked and was that your And you're not changing your professional EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 167 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 standards -- 2 A No. 3 Q -- during your testimony in this court, correct? 4 A Of course not, no. 5 Q Okay. 6 study applies to Texas; is that right? 7 A I'm not proving that empirically, no. 8 Q So you're not asking this Court to believe something 9 you've not proven empirically, are you? And you've not proven empirically that your Georgia 10 A Well, I didn't prove it empirically again. 11 Q I want to talk if I may about something on page nine of 12 your report under the heading Roman Numeral V, Academic 13 Research -- 14 A Okay. 15 Q -- on Voter ID. 16 17 I want to look at the highlighted sentence in the middle of that paragraph. 18 "ID disparity only matters, however, if it ultimately 19 causes a disparity in voter turnout. 20 matter in a legal sense this turnout gap must fall 21 disproportionately on minority registrants." 22 This portion of your report I think, and you can As well, to 23 correct me if I'm wrong, accepts the fact that there is 24 disparity and a racial disparity in ID possession rates in 25 Texas, correct? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 168 1 A Well, I'm talking about what Professors Barreto and 2 Sanchez and Professor Ansolahehere found. 3 Q Okay. 4 A I mean that's what it's referencing. 5 Q I understand that. 6 are -- that there are racial disparities in ID possession rates 7 in Texas do you? 8 A Well, from their numbers there are. 9 Q Okay. You don't question the fact that there And you haven't done your own independent study, 10 correct? 11 A Yes, I didn't do my own analysis. 12 Q Okay. 13 testimony at least that you don't -- you don't dispute the fact 14 that there is a disparity in ID possession rates and I want to 15 -- I want to focus in on your view of the impact of the 16 disparate possession. So we will assume then that for purposes of your 17 You say again "ID disparity only matters if it 18 ultimately causes a disparity in voter turnout, as 19 well as the matter in the legal sense this turnout 20 gap must fall disproportionately on minority 21 registrants." 22 Let me -- let me focus you on the second sentence if 23 24 25 I may. What's the basis for your legal conclusion in the second sentence? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 169 1 A I don't know that I'm drawing a legal conclusion but I 2 mean given the scope of this case that would seem to be one of 3 the things that matter. 4 Q 5 conclusion. You say "To matter in a legal sense." 6 You give a legal Is that based on any court case? 7 A 8 been gaps in ID possession found. 9 Q That's not my question. 10 A Okay. 11 Q My question is do you have any basis for your -- for the 12 legal conclusion in the second sentence? 13 A Am I citing an opinion for instance? 14 Q Are you citing an opinion? 15 A No, I'm not citing an opinion. 16 Q Can you name an opinion that says that? 17 A Not off the top of my head, no. 18 Q Can you name any legal authority that says that? 19 A Not that I can think of. 20 Q Okay. 21 22 23 Well, I can point to other court cases where there have Is that fair? Let's go to the first sentence. "ID disparity only matters if it ultimately causes a disparity in voter turnout." Let me ask you, would you agree with me that just 24 because a minority voter works to overcome a disproportionate 25 burden that a voting system imposes that that means that there EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 170 1 was in fact no disproportionate burden imposed? 2 A 3 out to seek an EIC to be compliant with the law then, yes, that 4 would require some effort on that voter's part. 5 Q 6 about turnout here. 7 A Okay. 8 Q We're not talking about getting an ID. 9 about turnout. Well, for instance, if someone doesn't have ID and they go Okay. Okay. But if the voter turns out to vote -- we're talking Well, in that case I -We're talking 10 A I would say that they've overcome whatever burden 11 that may have been there and successfully cast a ballot at that 12 point. 13 Q 14 imposes on voters and no matter how disproportionately they may 15 be borne by minority voters, if those minority voters turn out 16 to vote there is -- the burden is inconsequential, correct? 17 A I'm not saying someone didn't have to overcome a burden. 18 Q Uh-huh. 19 A Now this is under the section labeled Academic Research. 20 So I am talking about what myself and other academic 21 researchers are looking at in terms of the impact of these 22 laws. 23 we've -- as researchers, we've turned to looking at this from 24 ID possession rates to turnout rates -- 25 Q So your view is that no matter what the burden a system So as more and more of these laws have been implemented Okay. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 A 2 have been implemented. 3 metric that's being used by academics to study these laws. 4 Q I'm sorry, it's a metric being used -- 5 A This is a metric being used by academics to study these 6 laws. 7 Q -- because we can study that now in states where the laws Okay. 8 9 171 So in fairness this is -- this is a Well, let me ask you this. Do you recall testifying -- do you recall testifying at your deposition that there's in fact no support in the 10 literature for your view that only turnout matters when 11 analyzing the impact of a voter ID law? 12 A (No audible response) 13 Q Let's pull up page 91 of his deposition please, line 19. 14 Let's open it up. Is that page 191? 15 MR. SPEAKER: 16 MR. DELLHEIM: 17 Q "QUESTION: Oh, I thought you said 91. No, sorry, 191 please. Okay. So, but you're not aware of any 18 article that supports your view that only turnout 19 matters in analyzing the objective of voter ID law, 20 correct?" 21 Mr. Keister objected to form. 22 "ANSWER: 23 Do you recall that question, sir, and do you recall 24 your answer? 25 A That's correct." Yes. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 172 1 Q Okay. 2 A Yes. 3 Q So in fact your testimony just now that this is where the 4 literature is going is not in fact accurate, right? 5 A 6 Well, from what I -- okay, hang on. (Pause) 7 A Well, I don't think I -- I said -- well, I qualified it 8 certainly to say that I think turnout is the best metric to use 9 in the end. 10 Q 11 not supported by the literature is it? 12 A 13 extent. 14 Q Okay. 15 A I mean I've utilized that method as a way to look at these 16 laws. 17 Q 18 Right, and that's your personal opinion, correct, but it's Well, I've published in this area so I guess it is to some Okay. Let me ask you a question. If to save money a jurisdiction decided to charge 19 African American voters $5 to vote, to cast a ballot, but it 20 charged Anglos nothing at all, and because of outrage, 21 mobilization, whatever reason, African American voters in fact 22 paid the $5 and turned out to vote in numbers that were similar 23 to those of the past would you say they have not been burdened 24 in a legal or any other sense? 25 A Well, in that hypothetical yes. Certainly they've had to EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 173 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 pay literary a monetary cost in that case, in your example. 2 Q 3 doesn’t matter about the burden. 4 turnout, fair? 5 A That's the end result that we look at usually, yes. 6 Q So in my hypothetical, if African American voters in fact 7 paid $5 to vote and turned out to vote under your paradigm they 8 would not have been burdened, correct? 9 A But in your paradigm you say only turnout matters. It All you focus on is the Well, we wouldn't be able to pick up on the burden in the 10 study because the turnout rate would be about the same. 11 Q 12 talking about the way in which you were urging this court to 13 view the evidence in this case and it is your opinion that only 14 turnout matters in analyzing the effect of the voter ID law, 15 correct? 16 A That's what I say [sic]. 17 Q So if a law -- if a new law, again to save money, a 18 jurisdiction implements a law that says polling places in 19 Hispanic neighborhoods will only be open from 10:00 in the 20 morning until noon and polling places in predominately Anglo 21 neighborhoods are open from 6:00 in the morning to 8:00 at 22 night and because of outrage, or mobilization, or whatever 23 reason Hispanic voters clog those polling places and turn out 24 to vote under your paradigm there would be no burden, correct? 25 A Well, I'm not talking about what you can study. I'm Well, we wouldn't pick that up if we were studying at EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 174 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 using turnout rates. 2 Q 3 the paradigm that you used to analyze this case. 4 paradigm you would say those voters have not been burdened 5 because they turned out. 6 A Because they overcame the burden. 7 Q Do you know there's testimony in this case from a voter, I 8 believe her name was Ms. Maximina Lara who paid a poll tax to 9 vote in her earlier life and I think it's fair to say that 10 I'm not asking about what you can study. I'm asking about Under your currently Ms. Lara's income is modest. 11 Is it your expert opinion that a state law that makes 12 people like Ms. Lara pay a poll tax is not a burden on Ms. Lara 13 merely because she in fact paid it and voted? 14 A Now are we talking about -- 15 Q I'm talking in the past. 16 A -- decades ago? 17 Q I'm talking in the past. 18 A Well, I think most people would view poll taxes as a 19 burden on the general electric [sic]. 20 (Pause) 21 Q And again in your paradigm the burden doesn't matter it's 22 only turnout that you look at, right? 23 A Well, that's where things have been moving, yes. 24 Q Okay. 25 A No, in the literature, yes, in the academic literature. Not in the literature though? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 175 1 Q Forgive me, I thought you had testified at your deposition 2 that you can't think of any published piece in a literature 3 that supports the view that you are articulating in this court. 4 A 5 only metric per say. 6 Q Well, I’m saying turnouts being used as a metric, not the Let’s move on. 7 MR. DELLHEIM: 8 BY MR. DELLHEIM: 9 Q Don’t that down. You expressed some concerns in your direct testimony and 10 in your report about the work of Dr. Ansolabehere, correct? 11 A It would be more -- 12 Q Sure. 13 A -- get more specific? 14 Q Sure. 15 A Okay. 16 Q Sure. 17 something like six criticisms that you spell out. 18 A I think there’s seven. 19 Q Maybe seven. 20 A But now in fairness I’m not always talking about a 21 criticism of Professor Ansolabehere per se, but the difference 22 is the data that were available for him to use in this case. 23 Q 24 Before we talk about Professor Ansolabehere and the data 25 matching, you’ve done data matching yourself in this case, Okay. You cite in your report, I think there are All right. And I know I’ve asked you this before. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 176 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 correct? I think you testified that before. 2 A That’s correct. 3 Q But it’s a methodology you’ve employed many times as a 4 scholar, correct? 5 A I’ve employed it before, yes. 6 Q Okay. 7 the Political Science Academy? 8 A Certainly and other disciplines as well. 9 Q Okay. And it’s a recognized and accepted methodology by And I think you also previously testified that 10 you’ve not done any regression analysis, correct? 11 for your work in this case. 12 A Okay. 13 Q And we know that Dr. Ansolabehere did data matching and 14 regression analysis but you did neither for your work in this 15 case, right? 16 A That’s correct. 17 Q Okay. 18 analysis. 19 case? 20 A No. 21 Q And in fact your report doesn’t contain any criticism of 22 Dr. Ansolabehere’s regression analysis, right? 23 A I don’t believe so, no. 24 Q Okay. 25 Dr. Ansolabehere’s homogenous precinct analysis, correct? Yes. Excuse me, All right. And Dr. Ansolabehere performed homogenous precinct Did you do anything similar for your work in this And your reports do not contain any criticisms of EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 177 1 A That’s correct. 2 Q And Dr. Ansolabehere also used Spanish surname analysis, 3 correct? 4 A I believe that’s correct from the -- 5 Q And your report doesn’t criticize his Spanish surname 6 analysis, correct? 7 A From the team data base, I believe. 8 Q Yes. 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. 11 A No, it doesn’t. 12 Q Okay. 13 A Yes. 14 Q Did you perform any Spanish surname analysis for your work 15 in this case? 16 A No, sir. 17 Q The first criticism that you addressed to Dr. Ansolabehere 18 is that you say there was a lack of a unique identifier between 19 databases. 20 A 21 so an identifier that won’t change over the course of someone’s 22 life for instance. 23 Q Okay. 24 A Like a social security number. 25 Q Like of a -- they call it ssn -- ssn 9. Thank you. Explain what you mean by that if you would. Well, unique and not only that but permanent identifiers EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 178 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 A SS - a full social security number, yes. 2 Q Okay. 3 Dr. Ansolabehere found in his first report, correct? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. 6 course overtaken by events, right? 7 A We’ve had -- yes. 8 Q Okay. 9 A I mean this report was written based on the larger no And you tied that concern to the no match rate that Yes. And the numbers in that first report were of We’ve had several -- yes. 10 match list. 11 Q Okay. 12 A How’s that? 13 Q That’s fine. 14 A Okay. 15 Q I just want to clarify that -- the criticism that you had 16 that was tied to the number that Dr. Ansolabehere found. 17 number was overtaken by events and it was clearly not 18 Dr. Ansolabehere’s fault, correct? 19 A No. 20 Q Okay. 21 data and matched them, his no match rate was 5.8 percent, 22 correct? 23 A 24 last iteration of the no match list which includes Seven 25 Hundred Eighty Six Thousand, Seven Hundred and Twenty-Seven, That I never said that. So after Dr. Ansolabehere received additional DPS Does that sound right? I’m just going to look real-- very quickly here. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC In the 179 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 the no match rate was 5.83 percent. 2 Q Okay. 3 A Okay. 4 Q And that figure is lower than the match rate you relied on 5 for your Georgia study, correct? 6 Georgia study was about 6.04 percent, correct? 7 A I think that’s -- yes, I think that’s right. 8 Q And you told me at your deposition you considered 9 Dr. Ansolabehere’s no match figure to be accurate. The no match rate from your Do you 10 remember that? 11 A 12 accurate using those data sources, yes. 13 Q 14 this case is close to the no match you found in the South 15 Carolina case when you did data matching, correct? 16 about five percent, right? 17 A I think -- was it a little under five? 18 Q If you’re going to test my memory, I think it was about 19 4.8 percent, if that sounds right to you. 20 A I think that’s about right, yes. 21 Q Okay. 22 A So it’s a point off of that, yes. 23 Q Okay. 24 your direct express some concerns about Dr. Ansolabehere not 25 having access to full SS-9 for every record, right? Well to the extent to which the algorithms he ran can be Okay. And the no match rate Dr. Ansolabehere found in That was I can’t -- For your Georgia work you -- I heard you during EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 180 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 A Yes, yes. 2 Q Okay. 3 to match any data for your thousand words study, correct? 4 A 5 produced the list. 6 Q That’s right. 7 A Right. 8 Q And you didn’t express to your editors or to any court 9 that the data matching that you relied on for your study was 10 potentially inaccurate because it lacked full ss-9, did you? 11 A 12 full ss-9s and they, the State that is, conducted that no match 13 analysis. 14 Q 15 full ss-9s, did you? 16 A No, I didn’t there. 17 Q Did you tell the Court in that case that your work was 18 potentially inaccurate because you didn’t have full ss-9 19 access? 20 A 21 stated, I could be proven wrong but I think I stated in at 22 least one of the expert reports that that was a problem. 23 Q A problem with your own data? 24 A Well, not my data. 25 Wisconsin -- what’s called the Wisconsin Governmental But for your Georgia work you didn’t use full ss-9 Well the State performed the no match list analysis. They And you relied on that list, right? Well, the Georgia voter registration database does contain I just received the results of that. And for your work in Wisconsin you didn’t have access to I don’t know that I used the word inaccurate. I think I A problem with the data from the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 181 1 Accountability Board which is -- 2 Q 3 the accuracy of the data you produced in that case, did you? 4 A Well, I said this was the best possible effort. 5 Q Okay. 6 A I do think that I said something about the lack of social 7 security numbers though. 8 Q 9 matching should match on ss-9s as close to other verification Understood and you didn’t tell the Court that you doubted Okay. There’s no scholarly literature that says database 10 methods, correct? 11 A Ss-9s alone? 12 Q Yes. 13 A No. 14 Q And the lack of full ss-9 does not make the data matching 15 unreliable, does it? 16 A 17 be slightly more reliable if every database we were using had 18 fully populated social security numbers across all the 19 databases. It would make it easier to perform matches. 20 Q Well, the Wisconsin Court in the State case made 21 clear that the lack of ss-9s across the Wisconsin voter 22 registration databases -- the Wisconsin voter registration 23 database and the Wisconsin Department of Motor Vehicle’s 24 database was not a “significant factor” in the match’s 25 reliability; you remember that? Well, again I guess I would argue that it would probably Okay. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 182 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 A 2 at that. 3 Not specifically but it’s been a while since I’ve looked MR. DELLHEIM: 4 opinion, please, Tim. 5 BY MR. DELLHEIM: 6 Q Want to bring up the Wisconsin Case 10, paragraph six. “The Georgia databanks, the driver’s licenses and 7 voter, and the voter, both contain social security 8 identification. 9 social security identification but the Wisconsin On the Wisconsin, the SBRS includes 10 Department of Transportation data does not. This 11 difference is not a significant factor in the 12 relative reliability of the exact match analysis when 13 used to analyze voter ID that's used in Georgia and 14 Wisconsin.” 15 Does that refresh your recollection, sir? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q So you don’t know of any court that’s rejected any data 18 matching of voter ID case merely because the data lacked full 19 ss-9, do you? 20 A No, I don’t. 21 Q And in fact you have no evidence whatsoever and you do not 22 believe that the lack of a unique identifier like ss-9 among 23 the databases in this case caused any inaccuracy, do you? 24 A Well, I don’t know the answer to that to be quite honest. 25 Q You have no evidence, do you? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 A I don’t have any evidence, no. 2 Q And it’s not your opinion; is it? 3 A I simply stated and I’ll say it again that it would 4 probably been a more accurate match had every database been 5 populated with full social security numbers. 6 Q I understand that. 7 A Okay. 8 Q But it is not your opinion that the lack of a unique 9 identifier like ss-9 among the databases in this case caused 10 any inaccuracy, correct? 11 A 12 183 No necessarily, no. MR. DELLHEIM: 13 deposition, please. 14 BY MR. DELLHEIM: 15 Q "QUESTION: Let’s look at page 206 of his Line 22. And it's not your opinion that the lack 16 of a unique identifier caused the racial disparities 17 observed in the results, correct?” 18 And the answer was? 19 A Well, now we’re talking about two different things though. 20 Q Are we? 21 A Well, yes, to some extent. 22 general database matching and now we’re -- here we’re talking 23 about racial disparities observed. 24 Q 25 We were just talking about Let me ask you this. MR. DELLHEIM: You can take that down, please. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 184 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 BY MR. DELLHEIM: 2 Q 3 no evidence that the lack of ss-9 caused any inaccuracies? 4 A I don’t have any evidence of that fact. 5 Q Okay. 6 A No, sir. 7 Q In your testimony that the match rate may have been lower 8 if there was a full ss-9 is speculation, is it not? 9 A Informed intuition is that. 10 Q It’s unfastened to any empirical analysis, correct? 11 A Well, that’s true. 12 Q Okay. 13 anything you’ve not proven empirically, right? 14 A Correct. 15 Q Okay. 16 Dr. Ansolabehere’s data match result to assess the accuracy of 17 the reported match results? 18 A No, I did not. 19 Q Okay. 20 analysis found that the ss-9 matched 97.6 percent of the team 21 database records with full ss-9? 22 A 23 database that had full ss-9, yes, that’s true. 24 Q 25 combinations that he used that matched 97.4 percent of those You have no -- did I get your testimony right? You have That’s true. And you’re not going to ask the Court to believe Did you conduct any kind of validation analysis of But you know that Dr. Ansolabehere’s validation Well, for this -- Okay. For the subset of the team And versus the address, name, gender and date of birth EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 same records? 2 A Right. 3 Q And given that fact would you agree with me that 4 Dr. Ansolabehere’s multiple primary identifiers of using 5 address, name, gender and date of birth are the functional 6 equivalent of ss-9? 7 A 8 close, yes. 9 49 percent of the cases that don’t have ss-9. 185 Well, given that subset of the data it appears to be Okay. I mean, there’s a whole other half of the cases, 10 Q But you told me at your deposition that you 11 considered them to be the functional equivalent of ss-9, 12 correct? 13 A 14 about the functional equivalent of that, yes. 15 Q 16 performed a validation analysis, correct? 17 A I assume so, yes. 18 Q But you didn’t, did you? 19 A I didn’t do that type of analysis, no. 20 Q Okay. 21 analysis for the data matching work you did in Wisconsin, 22 correct? 23 A Not that particular types of validation, no. 24 Q And you didn’t do it in South Carolina, correct? 25 A No. Well, the matching algorithms he developed appear to be Okay. And if you had had serious concerns you could have And you didn’t perform that kind of validation EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 186 1 Q And you didn’t do it in Georgia, correct? 2 A Again, I didn’t do the actual data matching in Georgia. 3 Q Okay. 4 those numbers, correct? 5 A That’s correct. 6 Q Okay. 7 concern that the State ID Number in the Texas database is not 8 fully populated. 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. 11 A I mean, again that would be another type of unique 12 identifier that would help us link these databases together, at 13 least to the DPS database in that case. 14 Q 15 never had a driver’s license, the fact that the State ID field 16 is not fully populated is not really going to matter, is it? 17 A 18 Public Safety then no they probably wouldn’t have a State ID 19 Number in that field. 20 Q 21 ID Number caused the racial disparities observed in 22 Dr. Ansolabehere’s analysis, correct? 23 A That’s correct. 24 Q And you’d agree with me that you’d have no basis to reach 25 that conclusion because you didn’t undertake any analysis of Okay. You didn’t insist that a validation study be run on Let’s go to the second issue. You expressed a Does that ring a bell? Yes, sir. Well, let me ask you this, for people who have If they’ve never done any business at the Department of Okay. That’s true. And it’s not your opinion that the lack of a State EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 187 1 the racial ethnic characteristics in the no match list, right? 2 A That’s correct. 3 Q Okay. 4 between fields. 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q Okay. 7 having the name of Jim for instance as a first name and another 8 having the name James. 9 A That’s correct, yes. 10 Q And that’s only an issue when you’re matching on first 11 names, correct? 12 A If that was part of the match string then yes. 13 Q Okay. 14 combinations, correct? 15 A That is correct. 16 Q Well, I think we counted them up at your deposition and I 17 believe that you came up with five. 18 A Well, I meant 13 in all. 19 Q Okay. 20 A There may have been five that used name, first name. 21 Q Okay. 22 different matching combinations that did not involve first 23 names, that addresses your concern about inconsistent first 24 names, doesn’t it? 25 A The third issue you raised is inconsistent data Do you remember that, sir? And you give an example of one database record And Dr. Ansolabehere used multiple matching I think 13 if I remember correctly. And the fact that Dr. Ansolabehere used five Well, at least on the first name issue, yes. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 188 1 Q And when you made that criticism in your declaration had 2 you overlooked the portion of the report where Dr. Ansolabehere 3 explained that he used multiple name -- multiple matching 4 combinations not involving first names? 5 A That was simply an example of mismatched data. 6 Q Okay. 7 in first names caused any of the racial disparities observed in 8 Dr. Ansolabehere’s report, is it? 9 A I don’t have any evidence of that, no. 10 Q And you’ve not identified anyone specifically on the no 11 match list that you believe should not be there as a result -- 12 excuse me, as the result of inconsistent data between the 13 fields, correct? 14 A Yes, that’s correct. 15 Q Okay. 16 errors in the team database, right? 17 A 18 erroneous. 19 Q 20 example of bad birthdates, correct? 21 A Yes, there is some in there. 22 Q Okay. 23 matching combinations that never involved birthdates, correct? 24 A I believe I recall that, yes. 25 Q Okay. Yeah. Okay. And it’s not your opinion is it that the difference The next concern that you articulate relates to You say that -- Well, there is some data that are just obviously And you testified in this Court that you gave an Dr. Ansolabehere used at least three different And the fact that he used those multiple matching EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 189 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 combinations that didn’t involve birthdates in fact resolves 2 your concern about some records having bad birthdates, correct? 3 A Well, at least on the birth date issue, yes. 4 Q Okay. 5 data, right? 6 A Yes, that’s correct. 7 Q Okay. 8 the team database to the Social Security Administration’s 9 master death file to be sure anyone who has died is removed You also testified on direct about incomplete death Do you know that the Texas Secretary’s date matches 10 from the database? 11 A 12 series of steps though beyond that match. 13 Q Okay. 14 A If I’m recalling what I read correctly. 15 full social security number match and a match on some other 16 fields then I believe they have to send that case back to the 17 County where that registrant resided and let the County 18 investigate it. 19 Q Okay. 20 A How often they do sweeps? 21 Q Yes. 22 A No, I don’t. 23 Q Okay. 24 criticisms in your report, did you? 25 A I believe a match is performed and I believe there are a If there’s not a I believe that was the process. And do you recall how often this is done? You didn’t look at that before making the I didn’t look at that particular piece of information, no. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 190 1 Q Do you have any reason to believe that Texas is in fact 2 doing a bad job of scrubbing the team database of persons who 3 have died? 4 A No, I don’t think I ever said that. 5 Q Okay. 6 make sure that the list didn’t contain dead people, didn’t he? 7 A Could you tell me what those -- go ahead. 8 Q DPS. 9 A That’s true. 10 Q And Catalyst -- the Catalyst Debt file, correct? 11 A Yes, I think I mentioned that earlier. 12 Q Yes and have you identified even one person from the 13 Thirteen Million plus team database who is in fact deceased? 14 A You mean after these sweeps? 15 Q Yes. 16 A No. And Dr. Ansolabehere ran two additional sweeps to 17 THE COURT: 18 you all want to return at 1:05. 19 20 Let’s go ahead and break right there. If You can step down. (A recess was taken from 12:00 p.m. to 1:04 p.m.; parties present) 21 THE CLERK: All rise. 22 THE COURT: You can have a seat. 23 MR. DELLHEIM: 24 THE COURT: 25 MR. DELLHEIM: May I proceed, your Honor? Yes. Thank you. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 191 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 CROSS EXAMINATION (CONTINUED) 2 BY MR. DELLHEIM: 3 Q Good afternoon, Dr. Hood. 4 A Good afternoon. 5 Q I think where we broke we were about to talk about the 6 next concern in your report regarding Dr. Ansolahehere. 7 expressed some concerns that Texas does not record a 8 registrant's race or ethnicity, right? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q Okay. 11 Science provides several methodologies for estimating racial 12 characteristics? 13 A It can be estimated, yes. 14 Q Okay. 15 accepted methods according to Social Science for doing that, 16 correct? 17 A I would say there are a number. 18 Q Okay. 19 A I don't know that I'd use the adjective "many." 20 Q Okay. 21 A Ecological regression, yes. 22 Q Yes, and homogeneous precinct analysis is another, 23 correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Data matching is another, correct? You Would you agree with me that well-accepted Social And Social Science -- and there are many well- Regression analysis is one, correct? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 192 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 A Well, it depends on what you are matching to. 2 Q Okay. 3 A If it doesn't have it in the data base you are matching to 4 then no. 5 Q 6 ecological regression analysis, correct? 7 A 8 regression, homogeneous precinct analysis. 9 Q And in that case you might need to refer to something like One of those techniques, ecological inference, ecological Okay. And you testified at your deposition, did you not, 10 that retrogression analysis is probably the most prevalent type 11 of analysis used in the Social Sciences period, correct? 12 you remember -- 13 A Well, I said "OLS regression" regression analysis. 14 Q Okay. 15 A Yes, I did say that. 16 Q Okay. 17 your scholarly work, correct? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q And Dr. Ansolahehere used regression analysis in this case 20 to estimate the race of voters on the team data base, correct? 21 A That is correct. 22 Q And your report has no criticism of Dr. Ansolahehere's 23 retrogression analysis, correct? Do And you do use regression analysis many times in 24 MR. SCOTT: Objection, asked and answered. 25 THE COURT: Sustained. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 BY MR. DELLHEIM: 2 Q 3 Dr. Ansolahehere's no match list who should, in fact, not be 4 there, correct? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q And Dr. Ansolahehere constructed an algorithm to do the 7 searches for this case, right? 8 A That is correct. 9 Q And the Defendants also constructed an algorithm to do 193 And your report does not identify a single person on 10 searches in this case, correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q And you wrote that algorithm? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Okay. 15 MR. DELLHEIM: Could we -- Ken, we could we put up 16 the algorithm, please? 17 Q Do you recognize that, sir? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q Is that the algorithm that you wrote in this case? 20 A Well, I guess it goes on down a few pages. 21 Q Yes, but do you recognize that? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. 24 run against the team data base, correct? 25 A Yes. And you requested that these match combinations be That's correct. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim Okay. 194 1 Q And the purpose of that was to determine as 2 accurately as possible those Texas voters who may have lacked 3 SB 14 ID, correct? 4 A That was the purpose of these algorithms, yes. 5 Q Okay. 6 according to this algorithm, correct? 7 A Yes, he did, yes. 8 Q And you reviewed the results, correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And you compared those results of Dr. Ansolahehere's 11 running of your algorithm against the results of running his 12 algorithm, correct? 13 A At some point, yes. 14 Q And there was substantial overlap, was there not, between 15 the results derived by Dr. Ansolahehere's analysis -- matching 16 of -- or running of his algorithm and his running of your 17 algorithm, correct? 18 A There was a pretty heavy overlap between the two, yes. 19 Q Yeah. 20 95-plus percent? 21 A 22 with what I said previously. 23 Q 24 correct? 25 A And Dr. Ansolahehere performed a data matching Early -- earlier in the process. Do you recall testifying it was very high, about I couldn't put an exact number on it, but, yes, I agree Okay, and you said it was about 95-plus percent, is that Yes. I'm just saying I can't tell you exactly what it is. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 195 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 Q Fair enough. 2 team data base systematically biased the match results, is that 3 right? 4 A I don't think it systematically biased it, no. 5 Q Okay. 6 A No, it doesn't. 7 Q Okay. 8 affected by SB 14 and there was a Demonstrative that you-all 9 put up. And your report doesn't say that, correct? You spoke with Mr. Scott about -- about voters Do you remember that earlier this morning? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q And -- 12 And you have no basis to believe that the Yes, sir. MR. DELLHEIM: Could we put that back up? Do you 13 mind if we put that Demonstrative -- the first page of the 14 Demonstrative that you used this morning? 15 16 MR. SCOTT: Sure. Brian, would you put the first Demonstrative up, please? 17 MR. DELLHEIM: 18 MR. SCOTT: 19 MR. DELLHEIM: I appreciate it, thank you. That one? That one. 20 BY MR. DELLHEIM: 21 Q 22 on it, correct? 23 A Correct. 24 Q And there were people in this case that you observed is 25 that anyone over 65 is unaffected by SB 14 because they can Dr. Ansolahehere's no match list had about 786,000 voters EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 196 1 cast an absentee ballot, right? 2 A 3 person. 4 Q 5 voters 65 or older may, in fact, want to come to the polling 6 place and cast their vote in person because they can get, for 7 instance, necessary assistance in casting a ballot? 8 A 9 voters who want to show up at the polls on Election Day in Yes, they are unaffected unless they went to vote in Okay. You would -- would you agree with me that -- that I would agree there is -- there is a certain subset of 10 person. 11 Q 12 absentee ballot in Texas, that ballot has to be put in the mail 13 a certain amount of time before the election? 14 A 15 Clerk's office in person." 16 Q 17 who insist on voting at the polls because they maybe want more 18 time to make an informed decision, or they may need necessary 19 assistance in using a machine or reading a ballot, or for any 20 other medical reason, or for any reason at all, is it really 21 your testimony that 177,000 people are absolutely unaffected by 22 SB 14? 23 A 24 unaffected. 25 person, who doesn't have an ID, would have to get an SB 14- And do you know that to cast a ballot in Texas -- an Yes, unless someone were to say, "Have it delivered to the Okay. And for those voters over 65 who lack SB 14 ID and Well, if they choose to vote absentee by mail they are Anyone in that category who may choose to vote in EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 197 1 compliant ID, that's true. 2 Q 3 correct? 4 A Yes, in an in person voting situation, yes. 5 Q Okay. 6 A Correct. 7 Q -- on this Demonstrative and on Dr. Ansolahehere's list, I 8 have really the same question. And if they don’t they are, in fact, affected by SB 14, 9 And voters with disabilities, about 85,000 -- Wouldn't you agree there are disabled voters who, 10 because of their disability, or for really any other reason, 11 that insist on voting in a polling place because, Number 1, 12 they can get assistance; Number 2, the polling place is 13 accessible? 14 A 15 with a disability goes that in Texas that is a qualified reason 16 to vote an absentee ballot, or any voter that has a SB 14 17 qualified disability can petition to have a flag put in the 18 team data base whereby they would not have to have ID if they 19 voted in person, so those are two possibilities. 20 Q 21 have applied for and received exemption from SB 14? 22 A I think it was 18. 23 Q Eighteen? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Out of 177,360? It's possible. Right. Let me -- let me just say as far as voters And how many, to your knowledge, disabled voters Whoops, excuse me -- EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 198 1 A 85,000. 2 Q -- 85,031, correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And for the remaining 85,017 remaining disabled voters in 5 Texas without SB 14 ID, if they tried to vote in person at the 6 next election they would not be able to count -- to cast votes 7 that counted, right? 8 A 9 ahead of time then, yes. If they didn't take the step of having the record flagged 10 Q Okay. So it's not really true that they are unaffected by 11 SB 14, correct? 12 A 13 essentially I guess I would argue. 14 MR. DELLHEIM: Well, they can -- they can choose to be unaffected You can -- thank you very much, you 15 can take that down. I appreciate it. 16 Q 17 on the no match list who cast in person ballots at some recent 18 Texas elections, correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q And the ID data in this case dates to January -- the team 21 data base dates to January 15th of 2014, correct? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q How many of the voters that you identified to Mr. Scott 24 this morning obtained ID after January 15th, 2014? 25 A You spoke with Mr. Scott about voters that you identified I'm not sure of that. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 199 1 Q Did you make any effort to find out? 2 A Well, these would be voters in the most recent incarnation 3 of the no match list so fairly recently run. 4 Q 5 based on team data produced in January of 2014, correct? 6 A That's true. 7 Q So my question is did you make any attempt to find out how 8 many of the voters you discussed with Mr. Scott this morning, 9 in fact, had obtained ID after January 15th? But the most recent incarnation of the no match list was 10 A No, I don't know that number. 11 Q At your deposition we discussed the fact that the 12 literature establishes that poll workers can often apply voting 13 rules inconsistently at the polling place, do you recall that? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q And are you aware how poll workers were trained in Texas 16 prior to implementing SB 14? 17 A I read some materials relating to that, yes. 18 Q Do you know how many training sessions were administered 19 to poll workers throughout Texas about how to carry out the 20 provisions of SB 14 in the polling place? 21 A I'm not sure about the number, no. 22 Q Do you know how many poll workers there are in Texas for a 23 typical election? 24 A Thousands. 25 Q Okay. And would you agree with me that especially when EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 200 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 new rules apply at a polling place, poll workers often apply 2 those rules inconsistently? 3 A 4 particular, doesn't give poll workers discretion. 5 States poll workers actually have discretion to ask for ID or 6 not. 7 supposed to ask everyone who steps into a polling place to vote 8 in person for a form of SB 14 ID. 9 Q Well, I can only say in this case that SB 14, in In some That's not the way the law reads in Texas, they're I agree with you, but my question was especially when new 10 rules apply at a polling place, poll workers often make 11 mistakes, don't they? 12 A Well, poll workers make mistakes, they're human. 13 Q Okay. 14 And in a state as large as Texas -- strike that. You don't know the extent to which poll worker error 15 may have contributed to the statistics you discussed with 16 Mr. Scott this morning, correct? 17 A That is correct. 18 Q Your report discusses some -- some elections in Texas with 19 respect to provisional ballots cast, and you talked with 20 Mr. Scott about that. 21 ballots cast in Harris County for the 2013 Constitutional 22 Amendment election, right? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q And you also looked at Harris County for the 2014 Primary 25 election, right? You looked at the number of provisional EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 201 1 A That's correct. 2 Q And your conclusion was that almost all of the voters who 3 cast provisional ballots were unaffected by SB 14, is that a 4 fair characterization? 5 A 6 the voters that showed up for those elections in Harris County, 7 hardly any were affected by SB 14. 8 Q 9 this morning about whether voters who show up, whether that is 10 the proper gauge -- whether showing up is the proper gauge for 11 determining the amount of burden they endured to get there, 12 we'll leave that aside for a moment. I think that maybe the fairer characterization is that of Okay. 13 And we'll leave aside the discussion we had earlier You would agree with me that analyzing Provisional 14 ballots does not, in fact, account for the actual impact of a 15 photo ID law, would you? 16 A 17 someone who may never have shown up at the polls obviously. 18 Q 19 I would say that it's one metric. Okay. MR. DELLHEIM: Would you please bring up Dr. Hood's 20 2012 article with Professor Bullock? 21 41. 22 It doesn't account for That's all right. Page 41 near the top. I'm sorry, 411. I'm sorry, forgive me. (Counsel confer) 23 MR. DELLHEIM: 4-1-1. 24 Q This is your 2012 article with Professor Bullock, correct? 25 A That is correct. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 Q 202 Okay, and you -- and the two of you wrote: 2 "Although studying provisional ballots is one method 3 for trying to gauge the effect of photo ID laws, this 4 metric does not factor voter suppression that may be 5 associated with implementation of such a statute. 6 other words, provisional ballots are only a measure 7 of those registrants who have shown up at the polls 8 lacking proper photo ID. 9 may have been deterred in attempting to cast an in In Those lacking photo ID who 10 person ballot are not captured by this measure." 11 Is that what you wrote with Professor Bullock, sir? 12 A That's accurate and that goes along with what I just said 13 a few seconds ago. 14 Q Okay. 15 And -MR. DELLHEIM: Thank you, Ken. 16 Q What did you do for your analysis of the ballots in Harris 17 County or your analysis of the 10 counties with respect to the 18 Primary election to determine the degree of voter suppression 19 caused by SB 14? 20 A 21 ever showing up to the polls. 22 Q Okay. 23 A So the answer is nothing. 24 Q And I guess I have the same question as to the Mississippi 25 and South Carolina elections you looked at. That metric wouldn't capture someone who was deterred from First of all, let EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 203 me back up for a second. 2 General elections tend to be lower turnout than -- 3 than Primary -- excuse me, Primary elections tend to be -- have 4 a smaller turnout than general elections? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Okay. 7 South Carolina, and these were some special elections and 8 Primary elections, correct? 9 A And you looked at some elections in Mississippi and I looked at a special Congressional District election in 10 South Carolina which was, really, I guess the first election of 11 any size that was held under South Carolina's voter ID statute, 12 and then I looked later at the Primary elections held in South 13 Carolina this past summer -- I guess it is September now, so 14 this past summer, and then also in Mississippi Primary 15 elections that were held -- Primary and Primary runoff 16 elections that were held in Mississippi also this past summer. 17 Q 18 Carolina elections, fair to say you did no empirical study to 19 determine the degree to which those voter ID laws may have 20 suppressed voter turnout? 21 A 22 of the reasonable impediment affidavits that we collected in 23 South Carolina, because in that case someone can show up, as 24 you indicated earlier, as we talked about and vote without an 25 ID. Okay. And with respect to the Mississippi and South I think the only thing that might get at that is the count EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 204 1 Q And that's certainly if they know -- if they know what the 2 rules are, correct? 3 A Well, that's -- that's true. 4 Q Okay. 5 A So -- I think that that gets to that question to some 6 degree in South Carolina. 7 Q 8 Texas, right? 9 A No. 10 Q Okay. 11 study that even begins to suggest that whatever happened in Tex 12 -- excuse me, in Mississippi and South Carolina has any 13 applicability to Texas, correct, with respect to provisional 14 ballots? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q And you've done no empirical analysis to extrapolate the 17 results of your studies in Harris County and the 10 other Texas 18 counties to Texas statewide, correct? 19 A 20 certainly true. 21 Q 22 ballot analysis in Texas and to -- and to extrapolate them 23 statewide that would involve speculation, correct? 24 A 25 draw is that perhaps the provisional ballot rate would be about Okay. And you didn't get to that question at all in No. So is it fair to say you have done no empirical Those are only a subset of counties in Texas, that's Okay. And so to apply the results of your Provisional Well, I -- to some degree I guess the inference you can EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 205 1 the same in the rest of Texas as these 10 counties. 2 Q 3 to do that test empirically? 4 A 5 counties, no. 6 Q 7 ask this Court to do that, correct? 8 A To? 9 Q To speculate as to the effect of SB 14 in any county other Okay. But you have not endeavored to do that empirically, I wasn't able to count provisional ballots in all 254 Okay. And -- and under your working rules you would not 10 than the ones you've looked at, correct? 11 A 12 themselves. 13 Q 14 obviously in some degree, and I want to ask if you recall 15 testifying that among the voter ID laws in force and effect as 16 we sit here today, do you recall or do you know of any that are 17 more strict than Texas's? 18 A 19 currently. 20 Q Well, that was struck down by a Federal Court, correct? 21 A It's enjoined, yes. 22 Q Yes. Well, I -- that's correct. Okay. I think the Tables speak for During your deposition we talked about SB 14, Well, again, I think I mentioned one that is not in effect I don't know if we're counting Wisconsin or not. Yes. So let me repeat my question. 23 Among -- among any voter ID law currently in force 24 and effect as we sit here today, do you know of any that are 25 more strict than Texas's? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 206 1 A 2 strictness or trying to define strictness? 3 some ways there are accommodations in the law that are broader 4 than some other states. 5 less so than say Georgia, for instance. 6 Q 7 Well, do we need to get into what -- into talking about I mean, because in We talked about the ID mix which is Okay. MR. DELLHEIM: 8 deposition? 9 Q Could we bring up Page 83 of his Line 10. "QUESTION: Okay. So as you sit here today, based on 10 the scientific study you have done of the voter ID 11 laws with which you are intimately familiar and could 12 render an expert opinion in, do you know of any State 13 voter ID laws stricter than Texas's? 14 "Mr. Keister lodges an objection. 15 "QUESTION: 16 are talking about laws that are currently in force. 17 "Mr. Keister lodges an objection. 18 "ANSWER: 19 no." 20 Was that the question asked to you, and was that your And I will add the qualification that we Okay. If we can't count Wisconsin, then 21 testimony, sir? 22 A 23 I'm not intimately familiar with all 50 identification laws 24 across the US, so. 25 Q I think that's accurate. Again, I note the caveat that We spoke earlier about the opinion you -- some of the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 opinions you offered to the Florida Court and the Florida 2 Court's rejection of those opinions. 3 several voter ID cases. 4 207 You have testified in Let me ask you this: In the Billups case you submitted a report which was 5 essentially your Georgia study in an earlier incarnation, the 6 Thousand Words study, correct? 7 A 8 second one. 9 Q Okay. 10 A But, yes, it's the earlier study. 11 Q Okay. 12 A That's correct. 13 Q And, in fact, you cite that study, the Thousand Words 14 study in your report in this case, don't you? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. 17 A I was deposed, yes. 18 Q And that was with respect to the impact of the voter ID 19 law in Georgia, right? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And the Court in Billups threw out your report and your 22 testimony on Daubert grounds, correct? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q And you cite that you -- you cite the report that the 25 Georgia Court threw out, and you cite that report in this Do you remember that, sir? Yes, although it was -- that's a separate study from the And you gave expert testimony in the Billups case? Yes. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 208 report. 2 Did you alert this Court that another Court had found 3 your Thousand Words study to be unreliable? 4 A 5 expert report -- 6 Q Yes. 7 A -- to be accurate. 8 Q Right, so my question is, having cited that study, did you 9 alert this Court that another Federal Court had found it to be Well, I cite the academic article in this particular 10 wholly unreliable? 11 A No. 12 Q You testified recently in the Wisconsin voter ID case, the 13 Federal case, is that correct? 14 A 15 consolidated. 16 Q 17 the State case, correct? 18 A That's correct as well. 19 Q Okay. 20 the Wisconsin State Court, the NAACP case rejected your 21 testimony as substantially less credible than your opposing 22 expert, do you recall that? 23 A Well, my testimony wasn't thrown out in that case. 24 Q Yes, it was just found to be substantially less credible, 25 correct? Yes, that's correct. Okay. There were two cases that were There was the State -- and you testified earlier in And that Court rejected your -- the State Court, EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 209 1 A As far as I can remember, yes. 2 Q And you testified recently in the Federal voter ID case, 3 and that Court, in the Frank v Walker case, rejected your 4 analysis as suspect, do you recall that, sir? 5 A Not particularly. 6 MR. DELLHEIM: Ken, let's put up, if we can, Page 76 7 of the Frank v Walker opinion. 8 Q To the top, please. This is the Court, Page 76: 9 "For these reasons I have concluded that Hood's 10 decision to automatically count a pair of entries as 11 a match if they had matching identification numbers 12 renders his conclusions in the number of registered 13 voters without an ID suspect." 14 Did I read that accurately, sir? 15 A Yes. 16 on that point. 17 Q 18 talked earlier that the Court rejected your -- your view that 19 the 2008 election was an anomaly, but it also went on to reject 20 your testimony nearly completely, correct? 21 A Well, my testimony wasn't rejected. 22 Q Okay. Okay. 23 It doesn't mean my whole analysis was suspect, just In the Florida case we mentioned earlier, we had MR. DELLHEIM: 24 Opinion. 25 Q Let's pull up Page 26 in the Florida This is Florida versus the United States. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 210 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Dellheim 1 "We reject the contrary opinions of Florida's expert 2 which is Professor Hood. 3 analysis undermined his conclusions, suffers from 4 the number methodological" 5 And it goes on for pages to outline them. We do so because the Does that 6 refresh your recollection, sir? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Given all that we have discussed in applying what we have 9 called and what you refer to as the "Hood Principle," would you 10 agree with me that you have not proven to a reasonable degree 11 of scientific certainty what the impact of SB 14 will be in 12 Texas? 13 A 14 since the implementation of SB 14. 15 Q 16 in applying the principle that you are not going to ask the 17 Court to believe -- to believe anything that you have not 18 proven by empirical study, you have not proven to a reasonable 19 degree of scientific certainty what the impact of SB 14 will be 20 in Texas statewide, correct? 21 A What it will be? 22 Q How about is or will be? 23 A I think I've touched on the "is" part of that. 24 Q Statewide? 25 A Well, if you are referring to my provisional vote I am aware of -- I have looked -- analyzed the impact Let me ask it again. Given everything we have discussed Like as in the future? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 analysis, it doesn't extend statewide, no. 2 3 211 MR. DELLHEIM: Okay. I have no further questions, thank you. 4 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 5 CROSS EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. ROSENBERG: 7 Q Good afternoon. 8 A Good afternoon. 9 Q Ezra Rosenberg. 10 A Good to see you as well. 11 Q A few questions. 12 and Sanchez survey, but because we’re being clocked, I’ll just 13 go with the Barreto survey. 14 A Can I do the same? 15 Q You’ve designed a total of five surveys in your career; 16 isn’t that correct? 17 A I think we counted them up at the deposition. 18 Q None of them were surveys of voter identification, right? 19 A That’s true. 20 Q And you’re aware that Dr. Barreto has designed a number of 21 surveys on voter identification? 22 A At least two others that I know of, yes. 23 Q And you’re aware that he has designed hundreds of surveys 24 in total? 25 A Nice to see you again, Dr. Hood. And I’m going to focus on the Barreto Okay? I don’t know what the number s. It’s quite a few, I’d EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 212 1 say. 2 Q 3 do a survey in this case, right? 4 A I assume not. 5 Q You weren’t asked; isn’t that correct? 6 A That’s correct, I wasn’t asked. 7 Q And you did not, yourself, consider it; isn’t that 8 correct? 9 A That’s correct. 10 Q But you did review Dr. Barreto’s survey here, right? 11 A I did. 12 Q And you’re familiar with his reputation in the field? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Not only do you know who he is, but you’ve read a number 15 of his scholarly articles, right? 16 A That’s certainly true. 17 Q And you -- 18 A And part of a book. 19 Q Excuse me? 20 A Part of a book. 21 Q And part of a book. 22 competent in his field? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And your opinion -- you reviewed his survey in Frank 25 versus Walker in the Wisconsin case, right? Now, nothing stopped the State of Texas from asking you to I know who he is. And you consider him to be highly EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 213 1 A That is correct. 2 Q And in that case your opinion there was that, “Dr. Barreto 3 conducted his survey in a professional manner using commonly 4 accepted survey practices”; isn’t that correct? 5 A That’s correct. 6 Q As a matter of fact, you credited him with what you called 7 a, “Notable improvement in survey questionnaires of this 8 sort” -- this sort being voter identification -- “because he 9 had figured out a way of developing questions to capture 10 responses dealing with possession of ID.s, other than driver’s 11 licenses”; isn’t that correct? 12 A I think I made note of that, yes -- 13 Q Now -- 14 A -- in the expert report. 15 Q And in testimony? 16 A I’m not denying that. 17 if we’re trying to discern the impact of a voter ID. law that 18 we look at any form of voter -- any form of identification that 19 could be used (indiscernible) that law, certainly. 20 Q 21 “notable improvement over other surveys of the kind”? 22 A 23 types of identification, like a driver’s license or state ID. 24 card. 25 Q I mean, it is an important fact if, And you call what he had done in that regard to be a Previous surveys, from my memory, just looked at certain Now, in this case, you have no criticism about the way EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 214 1 Dr. Barreto went about selecting the sample respondents; isn’t 2 that correct? 3 A I don’t believe so, no. 4 Q And you have no criticism about the random digit dialing 5 system that he uses selecting those respondents, right? 6 A That’s correct. 7 Q And you have no criticism of the household random sampling 8 technique that was used to help gather other of the 9 respondents, right? 10 A That’s correct. 11 Q And you don’t criticize the size of the sample that they 12 selected as being suitable for the purpose of the -- of the 13 survey, right? 14 A I characterize it as suitable. 15 Q And, matter of fact, you have no criticism about anything 16 about the sample techniques that Dr. Barreto utilized in this 17 case? 18 A I don’t think I raised any, no. 19 Q And, by the way, you agree that respondent confidentiality 20 and anonymity are standard in the field of surveys, right? 21 A It’s important, yes. 22 Q As a matter of fact, you agree that respondents are more 23 likely to give honest answers if they believe that the survey 24 is confidential and anonymous? 25 A Yes. Under certain circumstances, yes. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 215 1 Q And in this case, you’re aware that Dr. Barreto used 2 oversampling, right? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And did that because it was important to get a suitable 5 number of Black respondents and a suitable number of Hispanic 6 respondents, right? 7 A Correct. 8 Q And you don’t criticize the way Dr. Barreto undertook the 9 oversampling, correct? Yes. 10 A Many surveys use oversamples in that regard. 11 Q And you don’t criticize the way Dr. Barreto did it in this 12 regard, right? 13 A Correct. 14 Q And you reviewed the survey instrument in this case, 15 right? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q And with the exception of a question dealing with the 18 Veterans Administration ID., you don’t have any other criticism 19 of that survey instrument? 20 A 21 instrument. 22 Q 23 because of bias that’s implicit in any question, right? 24 A No, sir. 25 Q You don’t criticize the questionnaire in terms of there I think that was the one issue I raised with the survey You don’t criticize the survey instrument in, in -- EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 216 1 being bias in the order of the questions, right? 2 A No, sir. 3 Q And you don’t criticize the survey in terms of there being 4 bias, in terms of context of the questions; isn’t that correct? 5 A That’s correct. 6 Q And you don’t criticize the response rate that Dr. Barreto 7 got as being suitable ground for him to draw the conclusions 8 that were, were drawn; isn’t that correct? 9 A Well, I think I -- the survey response rate was within 10 acceptable norms. Maybe it’s the way to put it. 11 Q 12 replicating what Dr. Barreto did, right? 13 A I did, yes. 14 Q You came close, though, you said? 15 A No, I -- well, clearly, it’s in the -- it’s in the report. 16 It did come close, I just couldn’t quite hit it on the -- on 17 the head. 18 Q 19 Dr. Milyo in this case, are you aware he was able to replicate 20 the results, aren’t you? 21 A No, I haven’t -- I haven’t talked to Dr. Milyo. 22 Q You haven’t read his report? 23 A No. 24 Q You didn’t compare notes or anything like that? 25 A No, I didn’t. Now, you did testify on direct that you had problems Yeah. Are you aware there’s, there’s another expert, No. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg Okay. 217 1 Q I’ve been trying to figure out why you weren’t able 2 to replicate the results, frankly, and I -- 3 A Well, I have, too. 4 Q Well, let’s -- let’s -- maybe we can work together and see 5 if we can figure it out. 6 A Okay. 7 MR. ROSENBERG: Can we have the ELMO on, please? See 8 if this is the one I want. 9 Q Does that look like a page from your data set? 10 A Well, it, it looks like a printout, a -- 11 Q Of your data sets? 12 A Well, not my data set, but -- 13 Q Well -- 14 A -- I mean, the survey data set, is that fair? 15 Q Well, you see where it says, “Hood -- TX, underscore, 16 survey, underscore, Barreto, underscore, Sanchez.SAV”? 17 A Okay. 18 Q Isn’t that the data set that was sent to us from you, your 19 reconstruction? 20 A 21 that had been sent to me that I sent back. 22 Q 23 here? 24 A 25 the same. Well, it wasn’t a reconstruction; it was just the data set Well, didn’t you do a binary reconstruction of the ID.s Yes, but all I’m saying is the rest of the data set was EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 218 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 Q Right. But that -- the language “binary reconstruction of 2 ID. possession,” isn’t that -- aren’t those your -- isn’t that 3 your tabulation? 4 A 5 or gave it that label. 6 Q 7 with this. 8 reconstruction of ID. possession”? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And that’s 30 know it expired before January of 2014; do 11 you see that? 12 A Yes. 13 Q That means those people did not have current ID.s, right, 14 those respondents? 15 A 16 it would have been usable. 17 Q 18 or not those were current ID.s, right, 60 days or more? 19 A 20 what the printout says. 21 Q Do you know why you’re listing those 30 as having ID.s -- 22 A No. 23 Q -- even though they’re not current? 24 A No, I don’t know why. 25 Q And we’ll show you another page from your data set. That sounds familiar. Okay. I think I named the variable after, Then let’s look down -- see if I don’t blind anyone You see where it says “30” under “binary Well, I, I guess it -- you know, up to 60 days before that Right. But the point of this question was to see whether I’d have to look at the question again. I mean, I can see EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC And, 219 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 again, do you see under “ID.s,” “No expired before 2 January 2014”? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And you can’t explain that here, can you? 5 A Not sitting right here, no. 6 Q All right. 7 A Okay. 8 Q When you were trying to calculate who were yeses and who 9 were no's, in terms of ID.s, how did you figure out who was a You have them as yeses, right? Let me see if I can help you a little. 10 yes and who was a no? 11 A How? 12 Q Well, in -- specifically -- 13 By looking at the survey questionnaire. MR. ROSENBERG: Let’s -- you know, let’s bring up 14 Page 30 of Dr. Hood’s report. 15 Q 16 if you can highlight that using the indicator? 17 indicator in the data set denoting ID. possession, do you see 18 that? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And that’s how you selected who had possession, who did 21 not, using the indicator? 22 A Well, that was a variable that was in the data set that -- 23 Q Let’s see what that variable was. And go to the top, the first sentence on top, first line, 24 MR. ROSENBERG: 25 of 63, all the way down. Using the Let’s go down to the bottom footnote There we are. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 Q 2 underscore, type,” right? 3 A Yes. 4 Q So that’s what you did. 5 respondents had a column, so to speak, with -- under “ID. 6 type,” and there was some ID. placed there, and you put that 7 person as a yes; isn’t that right? 8 A 9 so I -- no, not in that case. 220 The indicator was labeled in the data set, “ID., You basically looked to see where That variable was already created in the data set I got, I don’t think that’s accurate to 10 say, I was moving people around at that point. 11 Q 12 around, Doctor. 13 A Okay. 14 Q I’m suggesting that if you saw a respondent who had a, an 15 ID. labeled under “ID. type,” you’d consider that person a yes 16 because you thought that was the indicator for ID.; is that 17 correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Is there anything, any place in Dr. Barreto’s report -- if 20 you want to, you can look through it -- where Dr. Barreto says 21 that ID., underscore, type, is the summary variable for ID. 22 possession? 23 A I can’t recall that, no. 24 Q Is there anything in Dr. Barreto’s data set that it tells 25 you, that instructs you that ID., underscore, type is a summary Oh, I’m not suggesting you’re moving things -- people EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 221 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 variable for ID. possession? 2 A 3 that variable. 4 Q 5 possession? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Have you ever heard of anything called programmable 8 variable? 9 A Sure. 10 Q What’s a programmable variable? 11 A It’s a variable that’s created from a set of code. 12 Q And sometimes surveyors use a programmable variable, 13 perhaps, as a cumulative rolling variable, that basically 14 allows them to go from question to question? 15 works? 16 A Okay. 17 Q This -- in this survey, this was done by people sitting at 18 a computer talking on the phone, right? 19 A That’s correct. 20 Q So you get an answer, Question Number 1: 21 driver’s license? 22 is something like: 23 understand circumstances where the surveyor would use ID., 24 underscore, type as a programmable variable to bridge from the 25 first question to the second question, from the question of I don’t know what the label was that it was appended to But you assume that that was the summary for ID. Is that how it I’ll give you some examples, perhaps? Go ahead. Yes, let’s assume. Okay. Do you have a The next question Is it current or expired? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Can you 222 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 possession to the question of current or expired? 2 make sense? 3 A 4 fair? 5 Q Exactly. 6 A Okay. 7 Q And there is survey branching here, right? 8 A I -- yeah, it was pretty obvious they used branching in 9 the survey. Are we talking about survey branching? Does that I mean, is that 10 Q So you could understand, perhaps, the need to use a 11 programmable variable, like ID. type, to branch from question 12 to question, correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And in that sense, ID. type could simply be the 15 programmable variable, but does not -- is not a summary 16 variable that says at the end that that’s the yes or the no. 17 For that you have to go through all of the questions, correct? 18 A Well, that’s one possibility, yes. 19 Q So perhaps that might explain why you weren’t able to 20 completely replicate what Dr. Barreto did; isn’t that correct? 21 A It’s one possibility, I agree. 22 Q Now there’s some other differences between the way you 23 approached things and the way Dr. Barreto approached things. 24 And let me zoom ahead to the issue of weighting. 25 agree that weighting -- W-E-I-G-H-T-I-N-G -- is a standard and EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Now, you Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 223 1 widely accepted procedure in the field of survey analysis, to 2 make sure that the survey results are reflective of the 3 population being sampled, correct? 4 A That’s correct. 5 Q That’s a, just basically, it’s one of the basic principles 6 of analysis; isn’t that correct? 7 A Most surveys have to be weighed, yes. 8 Q So when you want to see what percentage of Black voters 9 have ID., and what percentage of Hispanic voters have ID., and 10 what percentage of White voters have ID., you would want to 11 make sure that those population groups whom you are sampling 12 are reflective of the population of those groups as a whole, 13 correct? 14 A 15 proportions for those groups match the population numbers, is 16 that fair? 17 Q 18 represent those groups. 19 For example, if you want to figure out the percentage of Black 20 voters who don’t have ID.s, of Hispanic voters who don’t have 21 ID.s, of White voters who don’t have ID.s, you want to make 22 sure that, for example, the Black respondents were reflective 23 of Black individuals in the population of Texas as a whole, in 24 terms of income; isn’t that correct? 25 A Okay. Well, you want to make sure that the sample Well, you want to make sure that those groups, themselves, Meaning, I’ll give you some examples. Yes. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 224 1 Q And in terms of gender; isn’t that correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And in terms of education; isn’t that correct? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And the same as to Hispanics, you want to make sure that 6 those respondents were reflective of the actual population, in 7 terms of those very important demographic groups, right? 8 A Okay. 9 Q The same thing as to Whites, right? 10 A Yes. 11 Q So, for example, if the survey respondents were 12 disproportionately wealthy Blacks or disproportionately young 13 Whites, you’d want to apply established weighting methods to 14 adjust the weight given to those responses to accurately 15 reflect the actual population, correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And Dr. Barreto did that, right? 18 A Well, again, I quibbled with, with the end result of it, 19 but … 20 Q 21 population group, weighting Blacks according to income, 22 according to education, according to gender? 23 A That’s correct. 24 Q And according to age -- I forgot age, correct? 25 A You’re correct. Well, Dr. Barreto did internal weighting of each EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 225 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 Q You did not? 2 A No, I didn’t. 3 Q And he did the same thing as to Hispanics, and you did 4 not, right? 5 A No. 6 Q And he did the same thing as to Whites, and you did not? 7 A I just adjusted my weight variable to make sure that the 8 sample proportions matched the population proportions on race 9 and ethnicity. And I stated I didn’t. I just -- 10 Q As a whole? 11 A Yes. 12 Q But that only goes to, ultimately, the overall number, 13 when you combine the races and ethnicities together; isn’t that 14 correct? 15 A That’s when you need the correction, yes. 16 Q Because that’s the only time you’re worried about whether 17 the percentage of Blacks whom you sampled are reflective of the 18 percentage of Blacks in the population, the percentage of 19 Hispanics whom you sampled are reflective of the percentage of 20 Hispanics as a whole in the population, and the same thing as 21 to Whites, and then you get this big number. 22 for the overall number, right? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Not for the percentage of Blacks who have ID.s or don’t 25 have ID.s, or Hispanics who have ID.s or don’t have ID.s, or But that’s only EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 226 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 Whites who don’t have ID.s, right? 2 A Right. 3 Q In fact, you agree that younger persons are less likely to 4 have ID.s than older persons? 5 A I think we talked about this a little bit. 6 Q Yes. 7 A In, in Georgia it appears that older individuals may be 8 less likely. 9 Q Well, that’s why you would want to make sure that when you 10 do your analysis, you’re weighting properly for age, because 11 there could be age-related differences, right? 12 A There can be various socio-demographic differences, yes. 13 Q In fact, at the time of your deposition here, you hadn’t 14 even bothered to look at those factors? 15 A Age? 16 Q In connection with this case. 17 A That’s correct. 18 Q And, in fact, you, therefore, assigned the same weight to 19 every Black respondent, the same weight to every Hispanic 20 respondent, the same weight to every White respondent, no 21 matter what their age was, no matter how, how poor or wealthy 22 he or she was, no matter how educated he or she was and, in 23 fact, no matter whether he was a she or she was a he, right? 24 A That’s correct. 25 Q But Dr. Barreto did that analysis, right? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC He did the Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 weighting? 2 A He, he weighed -- 3 Q And, in fact -- I’m sorry to interrupt you. 4 A He, he used that on the weight variable, yes. 5 Q And, in fact, on -- 6 MR. ROSENBERG: 7 reply report. 8 Q 9 last week, right? Let’s go to Table 2 of Dr. Barreto’s By the way, while that’s coming up, I think you were here 10 A No, sir. 11 Q Our first day in Corpus Christi. 12 A This -- 13 Q Okay. 14 A This week, yes, not last week, no. 15 Q Okay. 16 Dr. Barreto’s testimony? 17 A No, I didn’t see it. 18 Q Okay. 19 A Yes, I did. 20 Q Oh, you did read his testimony? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Oh, great. So you weren’t -- It all blurs. So you were not here for And have not read his testimony? 23 MR. ROSENBERG: 24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 25 227 Can we get to Table 2, please? I’m not sure what pages it’s on. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 228 (Pause) 2 MR. ROSENBERG: It’s on Page 5. 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Page 5, that’s Table 1. 4 BY MR. ROSENBERG: 5 Q 6 see Table 2. 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q And that’s a comparison of the census columns to -- of 9 weights as to each of these demographics for Anglos, African And Dr. Hood, turning your attention to the screen and you You’ve seen this table before, right? 10 Americans, and Hispanics, compared to the Hood column, correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And Dr. Barreto -- you weren’t here, but you did read his 13 testimony -- testified that the census column is the same 14 column that he used in his report. 15 testimony? 16 A I believe I remember reading that, yes. 17 Q So, while Dr. Barreto mirrored the census on every age 18 cohort, every education cohort, every income cohort, and 19 every -- each of the two gender cohorts, you did not, correct? 20 A That’s correct, I didn’t use those factors to weight on. 21 Q And, matter of fact, there were fairly substantial 22 differences, if you look at Anglos, you were underrepresented, 23 in terms of age, 13.7, correct, percent difference? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Overrepresented on elder -- I don’t want to call us Yes, sir. Did you read that in his EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 229 1 elderly Whites, because I’m almost there -- 65 and over, at 2 25.7 percent difference, you see that? 3 A Yes. 4 Q With African Americans 65 and over, you are 5 overrepresented at 35.3 percent and underrepresented at 21.1 6 percent; do you see that? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q Education, Anglos you were overrepresented 11.5 percent, 9 right? Yes. 10 A Yes. 11 Q And so on. 12 that correct? 13 A No, I’m not. 14 Q Now, I’m going to just very briefly turn to your tables 15 that Doctor -- that Doctor -- yeah, that Dr. Scott went through 16 with you. And you can’t dispute these figures; isn’t 17 MR. SCOTT: You’re going to use my demos through him? 18 MR. ROSENBERG: No, no, no, I’m going to use his 19 tables. And let’s go to Table 10B. 20 includes the report in Table 10B, and it’s Page -- 21 THE COURT: 22 MR. ROSENBERG: I’m sorry, 10 is in -- it Thirty? -- 30. 23 BY MR. ROSENBERG: 24 Q 25 Mr. Scott about, and this was a straight comparison of how you Well, this was the first table, I think, you talked to EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 230 1 have computed Barreto’s survey results -- it’s the left-hand 2 column for voting eligible population, right? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q Right. 5 would have them based on some errors, in terms of who was a yes 6 and who was a no as we’ve seen, right? 7 reason why it’s -- 8 A It’s, it’s possible. 9 Q And the next is your reconstructed weight, right? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And you used his weights for that left-hand column -- 12 A Where it says “survey weight,” that’s Dr. Barreto’s. 13 Q Right. 14 cohorts of age, education, income, and gender, right? 15 A 16 set that I was given. 17 Q 18 based on those cohort -- by cohort weight, right? 19 A Right. 20 Q And even with the possible errors in who was a yes and who 21 is no, you still have the statistical significance of 10.4 22 percent Hispanics to Whites on, on voting eligible population 23 for, for the Barreto survey weight, right? 24 A Yes, that’s correct. 25 Q That’s statistically significant at the .95 level of I’m trying to replicate the results here. And that’s where I think we are that -- that who That might be the It’s possible. Yes. And those are the weights that were based upon the That was the weight that was -- came with the survey data And then you have your reconstructed weight, which is not EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 231 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 significance, right? 2 A Right. The .05 level, yes. 3 Q Right. And, in fact, the 7.3 percent Blacks to Whites 4 approaches statistical significance, does it not, at the -- 5 A 6 either -- it either met the mark or it didn’t. 7 you sitting here exactly what the P level was for that set. 8 Q 9 compute the P value, did you? Well, we talked about this previously, again. It I can’t tell So since we talked about it, you didn’t go back and 10 A I didn’t, no. 11 Q If I told you the P value is statistically significant at 12 the .10 level of significance, would you be surprised? 13 A 14 significance level in that case, so it’s possible. 15 Q 16 the proper weighting, you found 6 -- 6.9 percent Hispanics to 17 Whites, and that’s statistically significant? 18 A That’s -- that would be correct, yes. 19 Q And looking at the registered voters, again, assuming 20 whatever you did, in terms of yeses and no's when you looked at 21 Barreto’s survey, both Hispanics and Blacks were statistically 22 significant compared to Whites, right? 23 A That’s correct. 24 Q And, again, even under your reconstructed weight, 25 statistical significance, Hispanics to Whites, right? Not, not necessarily. I mean, you’ve lowered the And you found even doing your reconstructed weight without EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 A 232 That’s correct. 2 MR. ROSENBERG: Let’s go to the 10 -- 10C. 3 Q Now 10C, the only difference between 10C and 10B is that 4 you took out those -- your -- it was very nice of you, and 5 honest -- you put back one person as a no whom you found and 6 took out 12 who had been yeses and you categorized them as no's 7 because -- I’m sorry, who had been no's and you categorized 8 them as yeses because of an issue as to whether -- citizenship, 9 right? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Right. 12 A -- certificate of citizenship with photograph. 13 Q And again, it’s possible that that could have been based 14 on your reading of ID. type; isn’t that correct? 15 A 16 “recalculated ID. possession variable,” I had gone through the 17 survey instrument and tried to completely reconstruct the ID. 18 variable myself. 19 Q 20 significance when you looked at the survey with the -- with the 21 proper weighting of 7.3 percent Hispanics to Whites, that’s 22 statistically significant, right? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And 7.7 percent Hispanics -- Blacks to Whites, that’s 25 statistically significant, right? No. Whether they had a U.S. -- At that time I had completely -- when it says So, so, question by question by question. Even doing it that way, now you find statistical EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 233 1 A Yes, in the voting eligible population. 2 Q In the voting eligible, and in the registered voting 3 population you have statistical significance, 3.9 percent for 4 Hispanics to the 2 percent White, and statistical significance 5 4.5 percent for Blacks to the 2 percent for Whites, right? 6 A That’s correct, sir. 7 Q And, again, even in your reconstruction, without doing the 8 internal weighting, we still have statistical significance, 4.2 9 percent for Hispanics, 2.5 percent for Whites, right? 10 A That is correct, yes. 11 MR. ROSENBERG: Let’s go to the next table, 10D, 12 please. 13 Q 14 you take out everyone 65 and over and everyone who’s disabled? 15 A 16 analysis, but I’m not -- so when I say “affected population,” 17 again, this would be someone that doesn’t have an ID., someone 18 that’s under 65, someone that doesn’t have a qualifying 19 disability, or someone that hasn’t voted post implementation. 20 Q 21 on this -- on these, right? 22 A That’s right. 23 Q Right. 24 A Yes. 25 Q So they’re out of this table? Now, 10D is kind of interesting. Is this the one where I don’t take them out of the -- of the data set for the One -- but they’re not included then as not having an ID. That’s who’s, who’s left. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 234 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 A Well, they were using the analysis, but, yeah, they’re -- 2 that’s who’s left after you take out those groups. 3 make sense? 4 Q Yeah, in a way. 5 A All right. 6 Q Well, first I’ll tell you the good news. 7 we still have statistical significance, 6.3 percent Hispanics 8 to Whites, and 5.8 percent Blacks to Whites, right, under 9 “voting eligible population”? Does that I’ll tell you what my problem is. The good news is 10 A That’s correct. 11 Q Even under your other reconstruction, we have 3.2 percent 12 statistical significance to 1.7 percent, correct, for 13 Hispanics? 14 A That’s correct. 15 Q For registered voters we have statistical significance, 16 3.1 percent to .9 percent and -- for Hispanics and 3.3 percent 17 to .9 percent for Blacks, right? 18 A That’s correct. 19 Q And under, again, your reconstruction, again, 2.1 percent 20 for Hispanics to .5 percent for Blacks, right? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q And that’s why I said “the good news.” 23 have fewer people who you’re looking at in this analysis; isn’t 24 that correct, because you’ve taken out a lot of people from 25 both the yes and no's? The bad news, you EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 235 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 A Well, again, I haven’t removed them, they’re just not part 2 of the -- what would be the affected population group. 3 in the unaffected group. 4 Q Okay. 5 A Well, unless you use the survey weight, which is analogous 6 to the Barreto weight. 7 right? 8 Q 9 Hispanics and Blacks? They’re But, again, no weighting as to age, et cetera? I mean, that is the Barreto weight, And that’s where we get the statistical significance, both 10 A Yes. In that table, yes. 11 Q Let’s go to the next one, which I think was 11A. 12 is the one that you said was based just on those persons who 13 were citizens; is that correct? 14 A No, sir. 15 Q Okay. Tell me -- tell me what this one is. 16 A Okay. So this is anyone who -- this is basically looking 17 to see who doesn’t have certain types of underlying 18 documentation, specifically proof of citizenship. 19 Q That’s right. 20 A Well, he said they were a citizen. 21 Q I’m sorry. 22 A Okay. 23 Q I’m sorry. 24 respondents who lacked proof of citizenship? 25 A Okay. And this So this was her -- I -- my, my misstep. Well, and that didn’t have an ID. But this was solely If they had an ID.,I EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 236 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 didn’t really count it against them, if they didn’t have the 2 underlying documentation because they had the ID. 3 Q How large a subsample is this? 4 A It’s not many. 5 multiply some of those percentages by -- what was it, about 6 2,300 -- 7 Q Right. 8 A -- I mean, approximate respondents? 9 Q So the universe you’re looking here is about a third of Thirty people, maybe? I mean, I guess you could -- you could 10 your respondents, right? 11 A It’s not many, yes. 12 Q It’s not many. 13 Barreto-Sanchez weighting, in light of the fact that you 14 reduced the, the population sample down to around 30? 15 A No. 16 Q And, nevertheless, even here with a very, very small 17 sample, maybe 30 people, we have statistical significance for 18 Hispanics of voting eligible population 2.4 percent to 1 19 percent, right? 20 A That’s correct. 21 Q And then, finally, we might as well look at 11B. 22 is one where you -- this is the one which is even smaller, 23 right, because here we’re dealing with that group of 30 that 24 you’ve now reduced -- you, you’ve taken out the people who are 25 65 or over, people who are disabled, right? Did you do any reweighting even of the I didn’t do anything to their weight variable amount. And this So what are we EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 237 1 dealing with here, five? 2 A 3 not -- no one’s confused about this. 4 basically, who lacks proof of citizenship, who doesn’t already 5 have an SB 14 ID., who is under 65, who is not disabled, and 6 who has not cast a ballot post implementation. 7 Q Very, very small universe left here; isn’t that correct? 8 A It’s a small number of people, yes. 9 Q And, in fact, even according to all your numbers -- Okay. 10 Well, may -- let me -- let me start over, so we’re MR. ROSENBERG: So this, this would be, Well, withdrawn. 11 Q By the way, you consider yourself an expert on American 12 elections, right? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q And when you testified in Wisconsin late last year, you 15 said you were unaware of a single case of in-person voter 16 impersonation fraud; isn’t that correct? 17 A Did I say anywhere or in Wisconsin? 18 Q Well, actually, that was the same question that you raised 19 at the deposition. 20 asking me. 21 A 22 So … 23 Q 24 single instance of in-person voter identification fraud 25 anywhere in the country; isn’t that correct? And the answer is anywhere, if you’re Okay. Well, at least I consistently remembered that. Right. And since then, you’re, you’re not aware of a EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 238 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 A I haven’t read of any, no. 2 Q Thank you. 3 MR. ROSENBERG: 4 No further questions. CROSS EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. DUNN: 6 Q Hello, Dr. Hood. 7 A Nice to meet you. 8 Q You and I have not had an opportunity to meet. 9 was in Dr. Sanchez's deposition when you gave testimony in this My name is Chad Dunn. 10 case. 11 understand that now? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q All right. 14 handled by Mr. Rosenberg and Mr. Dellheim. 15 topics I want to deal with. Nice to meet you. I represent the Veasey LULAC Plaintiffs here. 16 I think I Do you Yes. Most of what I wanted to ask you was ably There's just a few As I understand your testimony here today and from 17 looking at your report and deposition, the expert analysis that 18 you've analyzed is that of Dr. Ansolabehere, that of 19 Dr. Barreto and then that of Dr. Sanchez; is that true? 20 A Yes, yes. 21 Q And with the other 14 or so experts that have come before 22 this Court and testified you haven't offered any opinions on 23 their methodology or their conclusions; is that true? 24 A 25 earlier. No, I just concentrated on those reports that I indicated EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 239 1 Q So it's a true statement those are the only three experts 2 you've offered criticism of, correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q All right. 5 A Yes. 6 Q There's another expert though in this case, Dr. Herron, 7 who took the data from the database algorithm and produced a 8 report and testimony as it pertains to racial disparity and ID 9 possession. Are you aware of that? 10 A I'm aware a report was produced by Dr. Herron, yes. 11 Q Okay. 12 testimony on today; is that right? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q Dr. Herron's numbers are, in fact, consistent with 15 Dr. Ansolabehere's numbers and also the numbers that were 16 produced by the survey. 17 fact either? 18 A 19 take a cursory look at that report, but I certainly didn't have 20 time to look at it in detail. 21 Q 22 deposition and today, you were involved at the very beginning 23 in this case in developing the algorithm system that was going 24 to be run on behalf of the State as it pertains to the database 25 match. But that's not a report you've had occasion to give And I assume you're not aware of that I didn't really have time to -- I can't say that I didn't Now, I understand -- if I understand your testimony at Do you remember Mr. Dellheim asking you about this? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 240 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 A Yes. 2 Q Okay. 3 system or algorithm; am I right? 4 A I think it was five. 5 Q Right. 6 A I mean the one that was up on the screen earlier. 7 was accurate. 8 Q And that was run at the State's request; is that true? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q It was run against all the federal databases and compared 11 to the team database; is that right? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And it came back with a data set. 14 A Yes. 15 Q Is that right? 16 A Yes. 17 Q A data set that you wanted and you were expecting to see 18 in this case; is that true? 19 A Yes, yes. 20 Q And if I understand your testimony at deposition, you 21 analyzed that data set; is that right? 22 A I looked at it, certainly. 23 Q But then ultimately when you produced your report in this 24 case there's no analysis or conclusions based upon the 25 algorithm the State wanted to have run; is that true? And ultimately you came up with that five formula Mr. Dellheim showed it to you earlier. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC That Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 241 1 A Right. 2 Q Well, let me back up to another database match and see if 3 you've heard anything about that. 4 It's Professor Dr. Ansolabehere's numbers. There's testimony here in this case that the 5 Secretary of State's Office when Senate Bill 14 was being 6 considered by the legislature performed a database match to try 7 to determine the number of affected individuals under Senate 8 Bill 14. 9 A No. 10 Q And, in fact, the testimony in the case is that the 11 Secretary of State's Office came up with a number in the 12 neighborhood of 800,000 affected people. 13 the Secretary of State it's been alleged that number wasn't 14 shared with any members of the legislature. 15 that fact? 16 A 17 you. 18 Q 19 your testimony you weren't provided any previous analysis the 20 State had performed to try to determine the effect of their law 21 Senate Bill 14; is that true? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q And I guess what I find curious about your testimony, 24 Dr. Herron [sic], which isn't really an indictment of you but 25 perhaps more of the State, is the testimony in this case is Are you aware of that match? But then according to Are you aware of I'm not aware of much of this at all to be honest with So when you were retained by the State, I take it from EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 242 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 that the State has done a database match when this law was 2 being analyzed and then it had you design a database match, and 3 yet we hear no conclusions from it in this case. 4 offered none; is that right? 5 A Not from that database match, no. 6 Q Now, certainly if the State had wanted to advance some of 7 its resources to the question, somebody with your expertise and 8 experience could have taken that five-formula algorithm and 9 come up with some answers today for this Court in terms of what You've 10 the disparity might be and the number of folks affected by 11 Senate Bill 14; could they have not? 12 A They could have asked me to do that, yes. 13 Q Now, I'd like to shift gears with you a little bit if I 14 could. 15 Do you believe that ID possession is correlated with 16 income? 17 A Yes, most likely. 18 Q So, in other words, the poorer you are the more likely you 19 are to not have ID; is that true? 20 A 21 driver's license. 22 Q 23 I believe ably made, that that's why it's so important that 24 when you weight survey data you don't just do it by race but 25 you do it by income. Well, certainly certain types of ID, I'd say, like a And, in fact, that's one of the points that Mr. Rosenberg Wouldn't you agree? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 243 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 A Well, again, I explained in the expert report why I did 2 what I did. 3 proportions back into line. 4 Q 5 stumbled across data that indicates that African Americans and 6 Latinos in Texas are much more likely to be poor and lower 7 income than Anglos. 8 A Well, I didn't look up any of that data, no. 9 Q So you're telling us as you sit here today you're unable And I was just trying to bring the racial In your study of Texas in this case I assume that you 10 to confirm for the Court whether the minority population in 11 Texas is, on average, poorer than the Anglo population? 12 A 13 census, no. 14 Q Okay. 15 A Well, I always like to confirm. 16 Q What is your hunch? 17 A It's probably yes. 18 Q Okay. 19 A But I'm just making it clear that I didn't look that up. 20 Q So when you were working with the data of Dr. Ansolabehere 21 and Dr. Barreto and Dr. Herron and you were making adjustments 22 to it -- 23 A 24 be honest with you. 25 Q Well, I'm saying I didn't look up those facts from the So does that mean you don't know? Well, I was just working with Dr. Ansolabehere's data, to Oh, that's correct, you've told me that. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC So when you were 244 Hood - Cross / By Mr. Rosenberg 1 working with Dr. Ansolabehere's data and the survey -- 2 A Yes, the survey, too. 3 Q -- from Dr. Barreto and you were making adjustments to the 4 methodology that had the result of reducing the racial 5 disparity, did that not alarm you in light of the conclusions 6 that you should have already reached in your mind that given 7 the minority population was lower income there would be 8 disparity in ID possession? 9 A Well, there still was disparity. 10 Q It was just minimized by you; is that right? 11 A The numbers shifted, yes. 12 Q Thank you, sir. 13 A Thank you. I appreciate your time. 14 MR. SCOTT: Is the common interest through? 15 THE COURT: Is everyone on this side finished? 16 MR. ROSENBERG: 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MR. SCOTT: No further questions, your Honor. 19 Yes. the witness be dismissed? 20 THE COURT: 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. (Witness steps down) 23 MR. SCOTT: 25 Thank you. Thank you, 22 24 May You can step down, sir. your Honor. Your Honor, I think the next will be a reading from Senator Patrick's deposition. (Pause) EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 245 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 2 MS. WOLF: Your Honor, Lindsey Wolf for the Defendants will be reading from Dan Patrick's deposition. 3 EXAMINATION OF DAN PATRICK BY EXCERPTS OF DEPOSITION TESTIMONY 4 (QUESTIONS READ BY MS. WOLF; ANSWERS READ BY MR. SCOTT) 5 "QUESTION: Senator Patrick, could you state and 6 spell your name for the record? 7 "ANSWER: 8 "QUESTION: 9 you as a Texas senator? Dan Patrick, D-a-n P-a-t-r-i-c-k. Yeah. Was voter ID an important issue to 10 "ANSWER: It was an important issue to listeners. It 11 was an important issue to voters and citizens in 12 Texas. 13 point 90 percent of Texas voters -- which would be 14 Republicans, Democrats, Independents -- were in 15 support of it. 16 But it was a very high percentage. 17 more or -- I wouldn't say no less, but there were 18 many important issues. 19 that people would talk about. 20 not so much seasonal; but, you know, talk radio is 21 often driven by the headlines in the news. 22 might be a hot topic if there was a story and then it 23 might not be discussed for months. 24 "QUESTION: 25 ID was important to your listeners on the radio? If you look at the polling, I believe at one I believe I saw a poll with that. But it was no It was one of many issues And some of that was So it But you would say that the issue of voter EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 246 1 "ANSWER: I believe the issue of photo voter ID -- I 2 know we talked about that early -- to be clear, was 3 important to, apparently -- based on some polls that 4 I read in the papers and saw somewhere -- 80, 90 5 percent of the people in Texas. 6 "QUESTION: 7 aware of. 8 questions that you're referring to that reflected a 9 particular level of support for photo voter ID? You mentioned some polling that you were Did you ever see the specific poll 10 "ANSWER: I would imagine that I read the questions 11 in a newspaper article. 12 Only as it would have been reported, to my knowledge. 13 I've seen results of polling. 14 frequent articles, as I recall, in the newspapers at 15 the time, or online somewhere, because this issue 16 went on a number of -- this issue went on a number of 17 years, as you know, that would -- it was usually 18 always the same, that the vast majority of 19 Republicans, Democrats, and Independents, supported 20 the legislation. 21 "QUESTION: 22 that correct? 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 you believe it reflected what you thought the Did I see the actual poll? But there were You voted in favor of Senate Bill 362; is If that's what the record reflects, yes. And is that why you supported it, because EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 247 1 majority of Texas wanted, or were there other reasons 2 why you supported this bill? 3 "ANSWER: 4 integrity of the ballot box and I believe that it was 5 the will of the people. 6 always, but much of the time -- you vote for 7 legislation that is supported by a majority of the 8 people. 9 was a large majority of Texans from all political I believe it's important to protect the As a legislator -- not And in this case it was a -- what I believe 10 perspectives. 11 "QUESTION: 12 judgment that this bill in particular was supported 13 by a majority of Texans? 14 "ANSWER: 15 deposition already. 16 I read about, talking to folks, whether it was on the 17 radio or in person, probably calls to our office. 18 There was a general sense that not 100 percent of the 19 people, but 80 or 90 percent of the people believe 20 that showing a photo when you came to vote was 21 appropriate to protect the integrity of the ballot 22 box. 23 "QUESTION: 24 voters who didn't support this legislation? 25 "ANSWER: And how did you ascertain in your We have talked a little about this in the Newspaper articles, polling that Were you aware that there are some Texas The one thing you learn as a legislator is EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 248 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 you're never going to get 100 percent of the vote and 2 you're never going to get 100 percent of the people 3 to agree on any legislation. 4 "QUESTION: 5 even close to 100 percent of the Senate supporting 6 this bill? 7 "Ms. Donnelly objects on form. 8 "You can answer. 9 "ANSWER: Within the legislature itself, was it I believe it was 100 percent. I could be 10 wrong, but I believe it was 100 percent. There may 11 have been one or two Republicans who didn't vote, but 12 I believe it was unanimous. 13 support it. 14 polling and news stories, and interviews that I 15 received, and general knowledge -- supported it. 16 "QUESTION: 17 let me just be clear then. 18 Democratic members of the Senate supported SB 362; is 19 that correct? 20 "ANSWER: 21 "QUESTION: 22 "ANSWER: 23 correct it -- I do not believe any Democrats voted 24 for it. 25 "QUESTION: The Democrats did not But their constituents -- based on So it's your judgment that even though -So you understood that no Supported it or voted for it? Voted for it. To my recollection -- the record can But you think, notwithstanding the fact EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 249 1 that no Democrats voted for it, you think their 2 constituents supported this bill in particular? 3 "ANSWER: 4 I believe that the majority of their constituents 5 support the concept. 6 "QUESTION: 7 legislative purpose of this bill? 8 "ANSWER: 9 by doing our best to assure that the only people 10 voting were people who were eligible to vote and 11 registered to vote. 12 "QUESTION: 13 of confidence in the election process in Texas prior 14 to this point? 15 "ANSWER: 16 I -- I took the question as, was I personally aware 17 of any particular voter fraud; and my answer was, was 18 I personally aware, was no. 19 news accounts, there had been testimony, there was a 20 belief in -- by the general public that potentially 21 there was fraud taking place in the voting booth. 22 "QUESTION: 23 impersonation fraud? 24 "ANSWER: 25 general I -- I would say on two tracts. I can't speak to this bill in particular. So my question was: What was the To protect the integrity of the ballot box Was it your view that voters had a lack Yes. You asked me earlier did I -- was But there had been some And specifically, in-person voter Yes, that -- that people believed in EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC They 250 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 believed that the system was ripe for fraud because 2 anyone could show up with a voter registration card 3 and you didn't know if they were the person. 4 secondly -- and this is why I believe the bill had 5 universal support and -- again, from people from all 6 walks of life and minority and majority 7 populations -- they did not view it being 8 unreasonable to require someone to have a photo ID to 9 vote. And 10 "Because what people would say to me all of the 11 time -- all of the time; whether it was on the radio, 12 in a meeting, seeing them down -- you know, walking 13 down the street talking about it, if -- if this issue 14 came up, is, we live in a society where we're 15 required to present a photo to do almost everything 16 we do; pick up your grandchild at school, your child 17 at school, get on an airplane, cash a check, use your 18 credit card. 19 90 percent of the people support it; 90 percent of 20 the people -- or at least, you know, the vast 21 majority, whatever the specific poll says -- people 22 don't see it as unreasonable because they are 23 asked -- the majority of people understand that this 24 is -- is something that is -- has become a part of 25 the -- of society. The general public -- and this is why EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 251 1 "QUESTION: But you're not aware of any specific 2 polls that were taken of the specific constituents of 3 your colleagues who are Democrats showing that they 4 supported SB 362, are you? 5 "ANSWER: 6 "QUESTION: 7 polling data, that SB 362 enjoyed anything like 8 universal support among Texas voters? 9 "There's an objection, argumentative. I don't know of a specific poll on 362. So, in fact, you don't know, based on any Objection, 10 form. 11 "ANSWER: 12 few minutes ago was a general polling question, which 13 I answered. 14 have I seen a poll that specifically said people 15 supported this bill word-for-word, no, I have not 16 seen a poll. 17 "QUESTION: 18 "ANSWER: 19 "QUESTION: 20 any other reason to believe that there was widespread 21 support, including among minority Texans, for this 22 specific legislation -- in other words, SB 362 -- 23 notwithstanding the unified opposition of every 24 member of the Texas Senate who represents a majority 25 minority district? I think the first question you asked me a If you're asking me now, specifically, So you don't -- Not that I recall. But other than polling data, do you have EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 252 1 "Objection, argumentative. 2 "Go ahead. 3 "ANSWER: 4 and as directly as I can -- it was more than polls. 5 This issue had been -- had been in the public for a 6 number of years. 7 conversations about it with people; whether they were 8 in my district or out of my district, whether they 9 stopped me on the street or whether it was at a And as I think I've answered -- as candidly You know, just general 10 meeting or whether it was a phone call. It's -- it 11 was almost to the point, it was so universal, that -- 12 support for the bill, for the concept of photo voter 13 ID -- it was so universal that you really had to 14 shake your head and wonder why anyone would be voting 15 against it. 16 against it. 17 "QUESTION: 18 approximately, of registered voters who lack a 19 required photo ID. 20 is disproportionately poor, disproportionately a 21 racial minority, and that it's difficult to get one 22 of the required forms of photo ID. 23 combination of factors be something that you think 24 should weigh into the consideration of a bill like 25 this? I can't explain why the Democrats voted So let's say that there are 10 percent, Also, assume that that 10 percent Would that EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 253 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 "I'm going to object to the form of the question. 2 But you can answer if you understand it. 3 "ANSWER: 4 back of -- how I would potentially look at that. 5 First, would those people -- how many of those 6 people, for example, would be over 65 and who could 7 vote by mail and who do vote by mail. 8 some people over 65 prefer to vote in person. 9 understand that. I could only answer with a hypothetical Now, they -I So that would have to be taken. 10 How many of those people live in urban areas where 11 it's very convenient to get to a DPS and get a free 12 ID, for example. 13 Again, the premise that you're making is not a 14 premise I agree with, that -- and I don't know what 15 the numbers are, obviously. 16 hypothetical. I do not agree with the premise that a 17 significant number of people do not have or cannot 18 get a photo ID. 19 "And remember, even -- and if you look since -- not 20 through 62, but since SB 14 passed, we've had, I 21 believe, five total elections, maybe more, from city 22 to state, county. 23 been any complaints. 24 aware. 25 we've had millions of people vote. So what's the real percentage? And you asked me a You know, I don't think there have I'm not -- I'm personally not It doesn't mean there haven't been a few, but And I think, in EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 254 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 some cases, voter turnout is actually higher. 2 Sometimes the primaries are not, depending if it's 3 the presidential or a gubernatorial year. 4 we are in 2014. 5 aware of what people think, I'm not aware of one 6 complaint. 7 not aware of one person that's complained, and I do 8 have a district where -- where, as I said earlier, I 9 don't know the exact number, but I think somewhere But here I'm not -- when you ask me am I Maybe there has been to my office. I'm 10 around 30 percent plus, 35, 38 percent, are minority. 11 I'm not aware of any complaints to the Secretary of 12 State. 13 I -- I think I read a story about someone complaining 14 because they showed up and left it at home. 15 "So I think that what -- the bill that we passed, I 16 think we were thoughtful. 17 account the hypotheticals that you present to us, and 18 I think the proof would show five years -- or not 19 five years -- three years, after the fact, that 20 students aren't complaining, seniors aren't 21 complaining, minorities aren't complaining, and 22 voting turnout is healthy. 23 "QUESTION: 24 being subjected to challenge under the Voting Rights 25 Act for having a racially discriminatory impact, Maybe there have been -- the only thing that We tried to take into You're aware that the law is currently EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 255 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 including by plaintiffs in the state of Texas. Does 2 that count as complaining to you? 3 "There's an objection to the form of the question. 4 "ANSWER: 5 not aware of constituents and voters in any large 6 numbers complaining that they in some way were 7 disenfranchised. 8 "QUESTION: 9 into that, how do you know that voters aren't being Anyone can sue anyone for anything, but I'm And remember, for the record -- So you're not -- if you haven't looked 10 affected in the past five elections? 11 "ANSWER: 12 them. 13 they show up on a news station. 14 may have been a report somewhere or a news story 15 or -- you know, somewhere, but I'm just not aware of 16 any. 17 people. 18 don't know. 19 would have to show me that a significant number of 20 people felt they couldn't vote. 21 it. 22 "So I think the bill has been a success; and I think 23 people, minority and majority, have embraced it and 24 feel that we have integrity at the ballot box. 25 "QUESTION: When voters aren't happy, you hear from They call your office, they find a reporter, And, again, there And, again, we're talking about millions of Could there have been a handful? I mean, I But I'm sure not aware of anyone. You I just haven't seen What was the purpose of SB 14? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 256 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 "ANSWER: As I answered earlier, to protect the 2 integrity of the ballot box and -- and pass a bill 3 that the vast majority of people had indicated they 4 wanted passed and believed should pass. 5 "QUESTION: 6 SB 14 was the same purpose as SB 362? 7 "ANSWER: 8 something, but I think that's probably a fair 9 characterization. So is it fair to say that the purpose of I'm always careful when you characterize 10 "QUESTION: So you think if a voter has to travel 11 150 miles round-trip, that's not going to impact 12 whether or not they get an EIC? 13 "ANSWER: 14 specifics of that voter. 15 they're over 65, they can vote from mail, so it 16 obviously wouldn't impact them. 17 give me the specifics of a voter who you might be 18 trying to make that case for. 19 gone anywhere from their home, anywhere near a DPS 20 office, in between elections or before an election? 21 Because you only have to do it once. 22 to give me the specifics of a given person. 23 "As I've said earlier, to my knowledge we haven't had 24 any complaints from people who live in these counties 25 that don't have DPS -- to my knowledge we haven't had Once again, you would have to give me the Is that voter over 65? If You would have to Has that voter ever EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC So you'd have 257 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 any complaints of people saying, 'Yeah, gosh, I just 2 never ever got by DPS to get a photo ID.' 3 just -- and I've never heard any -- I've never heard 4 one Democrat senator or a Republican senator who 5 represents a rural area, since this bill passed, say 6 to me that it was a burden. 7 "QUESTION: 8 people will bring it up affirmatively without you 9 taking any further investigation? It's But you expect that if there are problems 10 "ANSWER: That's pretty much how the system works. 11 You know, sometimes you pass legislation that just 12 may have a techni- -- you know, some kind of -- as we 13 call them, unintended consequences at times. 14 believe me, either -- you know, someone brings it to 15 your attention. 16 fix it in the next session, sometimes it's not. 17 "But, I mean, I can sit here honestly today and say I 18 don't think I've had one senator, including a 19 Democrat, come back and say, you know, this -- 'Dan, 20 this really didn't work out; you know, we need to -- 21 or we need to fix something, you know, we need to 22 make a change in the bill.' 23 we've already had a session in 2013 and I don't -- I 24 stand to be corrected, you can check the records. 25 don't think one Democrat -- and every Democrat voted And, And sometimes it's valid to try and And we -- and, look, EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC I 258 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 against it. I don't think one Democrat tried to 2 amend this bill in any way or update it in the last 3 session. 4 "QUESTION: 5 a repeal of this bill could pass? 6 "ANSWER: 7 words, if there's a problem, if you came to me and 8 said, 'Dan, you know, this is a problem in my 9 district and I know the bill's not going to be 10 repealed and -- you know, but can we fix this? 11 we try to?' 12 who came to me or made it an issue. 13 one article. 14 because I don't think the Democrats are getting much 15 pushback in their district or questions. 16 "QUESTION: 17 haven't actively sought out that information? 18 "And there's an objection that it's argumentative. 19 "ANSWER: 20 assumption. 21 anyone has complained to the -- what I do -- I do not 22 recall. 23 passing or something or at lunch, but I do not recall 24 any Democrat senator or Republican senator saying 25 that we need to go back and tweak this, in any way, They may have, but I don't remember it. Would there have been any likelihood that Not a repeal. I said to fix it. In other Can I do not know of one Democratic senator I don't remember I don't -- I just -- but I think that's But that's just your assumption, you Well, what I'm saying to you is not an Well, it's -- yeah, I don't know if Maybe someone said something to me in EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 259 1 shape or form. 2 "And, again, being chair of education where I really 3 do have my arms around what happens, the best example 4 I can give you is several years ago we voted for a 5 number of standard state tests to graduate from high 6 school. 7 parents and enough teachers and enough 8 superintendents, that collectively we went back and 9 changed the number of state tests. We had enough negative feedback from enough We reduced them 10 from 15 to 5 last session. 11 "So what I'm suggesting to you is, when we pass major 12 legislation -- and, again, every bill's important -- 13 the legislation impacts a large number of people, 14 that it is not uncommon for senators to go back in 15 another session or two sessions and say, 'You know 16 what, we can improve it; we can make it better.' 17 "And so all I'm saying to you is, that in 2013 I'm 18 not aware of anyone coming to us or -- or the 19 Democrat caucus, or a group of senators coming and 20 saying, 'Look, this is the law, and we have to live 21 with the law.' 22 would -- 'would you-all work with us and change 23 this?' 24 "QUESTION: 25 that you sponsored. That's out of the lawsuit. But I'm just not aware of it. I'd like to ask about another amendment If you could turn to page 123 of EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 the Senate Journal from January 26th. 2 "ANSWER: 3 "QUESTION: 4 amendment that you sponsored? 5 "ANSWER: 6 Hinojosa. 7 "QUESTION: 8 amendment? 9 "ANSWER: 260 Okay. And Floor Amendment 18, is this an I was the co-author of it with Senator Okay. And what was the purpose of this It just included -- it gave one more item, 10 because we had -- we had somewhere in the 11 neighborhood, back then, 3 or 400,000 -- I shouldn't 12 speculate -- but hundreds of thousands of people with 13 CHLs; and Senator Hinojosa, who is a person who 14 supports CHLs, in my view, and he thought that -- I 15 know that he and I talked about it. 16 remember the conversation. 17 it, and so he carried it just to give one more, 18 because we knew that those people that had a CHL had 19 been -- not that you need a background check for one; 20 but we knew that was an authentic, you know, 21 government document. 22 "QUESTION: 23 the preferences of the constituents of every 24 Democratic senator better than they did themselves? 25 "And there's an objection, argumentative. I just don't But he was supportive of It's your testimony that you understood EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 261 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 "You can answer. 2 "ANSWER: 3 another senator's district better than I know mine. 4 But, again, looking at the polling data and the 5 general sense of news reports and opinions on this 6 issue, it was clear that -- based on polling data and 7 other data -- that a majority, or a significant 8 number at least, in some of their districts, 9 supported photo voter ID. Yeah, I wouldn't pretend that I know 10 "QUESTION: So is it fair to say that even before the 11 bill was called for a vote, you expected it to be a 12 party line vote? 13 "ANSWER: 14 "QUESTION: 15 "ANSWER: 16 similar subjects. 17 "QUESTION: 18 "ANSWER: 19 you very simply, because it's not complicated. 20 for a long time, was a -- and the reason I know 21 pretty well is because I've been opposing it for a 22 long time and I've given debates on the floor. 23 most of the last century, Texas was an all Democrat 24 state, in terms of its legislators or strong 25 majority. Yes. And why was that your expectation? Based on past votes on other bills of And what's the blocker bill? The blocker bill, if I can explain it to Texas For So in the '30s, '40s, '50s and '60s, when EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 262 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 there were 31 senators, there may have been, at any 2 given time, two, three or four Republicans with all 3 Democrats. 4 all Republicans, it would be the same thing. 5 when everyone in the room is in the same party, you 6 have to -- and you want your bill and you want your 7 bill and he wants his bill and everybody wants their 8 own bill; well, not everybody can bring their bill to 9 the floor. For all the Democrats -- and if it were There's only so much time. But And so, how 10 do you decide who gets their bill to the floor? So a 11 little bit of the history of that, I think this -- 12 because it's a Senate rule, it's not in the 13 Constitution; it's voted on by senators. 14 "So the Democrats, to -- the best history I can 15 recall, the Democrats actually created the bill, in 16 essence, so that there was a way to organize what 17 bill comes on the floor. 18 Democrats -- since there's 26 or eight of you, 19 however many -- if you can get 20, okay, I'll take 20 your bill. 21 the lieutenant governor, you can't take everyone's 22 bill. 23 "In the 1950s, it really came into play where it 24 started being used a little bit. 25 the blocker bill says -- think of one street of So if you can get 20 other But otherwise, I just can't -- if you're In essence, what EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 263 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 traffic. If there's a car and it's broken down, 2 every car behind it can't go through, it's blocking 3 traffic, so you have to go around to move forward. 4 "What the blocker bill does is -- and again, the 5 Democrats, from the best of my study, started it, 6 created it. 7 also -- it's known as the rosebush bill. 8 Democrats would have someone file a bill dealing with 9 the landscaping of the Capitol and they would never What the blocker bill -- and it was The 10 pass the bill. It would block every other bill. So 11 for you to pass your bill, you would have to get 12 20 other senators to agree with you, because you'd be 13 the 21st vote, to suspend the rules to go around that 14 bill. 15 "So what has been the tradition over the years -- 16 and, again, the Senate -- the lieutenant governor 17 doesn't decide, the senators vote on that -- every 18 year we vote on the rules. 19 and Republican, we get in a room and we all vote -- 20 and we vote all the rules. 21 want. 22 "And so every session there is a bill -- it may not 23 be -- I don't even know what they have been the last 24 couple of sessions. 25 anymore. The senators, Democrats We can vote any rule we And so that rule is still in place today. I don't know if it's landscaping But a bill is filed, it's put in the chute EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 264 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 ready to go, but it never gets voted on. So if we 2 were all senators, I would -- I go around with my 3 little card and I count up my 20 senators. 4 I have 20, plus me, 21, I turn it in to the 5 lieutenant governor and say I have the -- I can 6 suspend the blocker bill rule, and move around it to 7 pass my bill. 8 decision to allow me to do that, or not. 9 "But that's what the blocker bill is. And once The lieutenant governor still has the That's a long 10 explanation; but so you really understand and get 11 your arms around it, that's what it has meant. 12 the House, they don't have it. 13 committee that decides which bills come to the floor. 14 So all the committees pass bills. 15 deals with it that way, with 31 members. 16 "QUESTION: 17 blocker bill required that there be bipartisan 18 cooperation in order to bring a bill to the floor, 19 essentially? 20 "ANSWER: 21 believe that's a little bit of a misnomer. 22 what people will say. 23 the blocker bill is outdated because it was really 24 created -- in my view and in my study, and I could be 25 wrong, but in my view, for a one-party system of how Okay. In They actually have a So the Senate just In the modern era, has having a You know, that's what -- I personally That's I don't -- I believe the -- EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 265 1 to decide who gets the bill so there's not a 2 catfight. 3 think I could say clearly: 4 nothing to do with bipartisanship because it was 5 implemented and used primarily in a one-party state. 6 "QUESTION: 7 bill, does it mean that only Republicans -- any bill 8 that the Republicans decide -- because they're the 9 majority -- to bring to the floor, that they have the It had nothing to do with -- in fact, I Originally. The blocker bill has But now, without the blocker 10 ability to do that regardless of whether they have 11 any Democratic votes? 12 "ANSWER: 13 there were only 20 Republicans, so on every bill we 14 needed at least one Democrat. Then in 2009 and 2011 15 we lost a seat, so we had 19. So on every bill we 16 had to have at least two Democrats, and that's if you 17 had every Republican. 18 "And lots of times a Republican will have a bill that 19 doesn't -- you know, what I tell people all the time 20 is everyone thinks it's a Republican/Democrat divide. 21 It's not in Texas, for the most part. 22 issues. 23 vote. 24 "Most of our bills in Texas are along geographical 25 issues, it's urban and rural. No. Because in 2007, my first session, On some You know, this obviously was a party line So very often you will EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 266 1 have -- in Harris County, for example, our two 2 Democratic -- our two Democrat senators in Harris 3 County -- three rather, we will, the Republican two 4 senators, or three of us, different parts, we will -- 5 we will be together because we're representing 6 Houston and Harris County and what's in the best 7 interest. 8 "And when you come to education or transportation or 9 water, or whatever it might be, we have different 10 issues than they do in West Texas, so you'll often 11 see the Democrat Valley senators team up with West 12 and East Texas rural Republicans. 13 a party issue. 14 "So the -- so the -- you know, the answer to the 15 question: 16 we're always a vote or two short, and sometimes we -- 17 and sometimes we can be five or six short. 18 "QUESTION: 19 reflect that, absent this rule, it would only have 20 taken 19 votes and you had exactly 19 Republicans? 21 "ANSWER: 22 yes. 23 "Yes, because during special sessions -- and we've 24 had 15 special sessions, I think is the number, I 25 could be one or two off, in the last decade or so, we So it's not always We can't pass whatever we want because But in this instance, does your email Yes. Well, let me see. Let me -- I say EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 267 1 don't use the 21-vote rule. So on the special 2 sessions we don't use the 21-vote rule. 3 occasion in regular sessions -- in regular session 4 it's been set aside or -- there are various ways to 5 work around it, so it's -- it's not unprecedented. 6 "QUESTION: 7 "ANSWER: 8 unprecedented either. 9 "QUESTION: And on But it's not unusual in regular sessions? It's not unusual, but it's not Not in my view. Was that a concern that you had in 10 passing SB 14, that illegal immigrants were voting in 11 Texas? 12 "ANSWER: 13 integrity of the ballot box so that no one who was 14 ineligible or not registered to vote, voted. 15 "QUESTION: 16 indirectly impact the illegal immigrants, as you use 17 this language in this email? 18 "MS. DONNELLY: 19 "Go ahead. 20 "ANSWER: 21 The purpose of Senate Bill 14 was to make sure we had 22 integrity of the ballot box so that people who were 23 ineligible to vote or not registered, that they 24 didn't vote. 25 And illegal immigrants are a subset of that group Well, our concern was that we wanted So one question is does SB 14 directly or Objection. Argumentative. I don't know better to answer the question. And that's a -- a spectrum of people. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 268 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 because they're not eligible to vote. 2 "It wasn't -- in my view, it wasn't -- that was not 3 the sole purpose of the bill. 4 purpose of the bill, beyond what I've said, clearly. 5 "QUESTION: 6 analysis that you or anyone in the Senate conducted 7 in considering SB 14, is that right? 8 "ANSWER: 9 me, I just kind of logically walked through the steps 10 of wherever someone might live in Texas, if they were 11 able-bodies, whether they were poor, middle class, 12 or -- or otherwise, and I came to that conclusion. 13 "And as I also testified earlier, three years after 14 the bill has been passed, and multiple election -- 15 multiple elections, there's just no evidence -- and I 16 know this is all about evidence -- I don't think 17 there's any evidence, any significant evidence, of 18 any large number of people -- or anyone at all -- who 19 has said this is an issue. 20 "And so I think the process that at least I went 21 through, and the decision that I made, turned out to 22 be proven to be correct. 23 "And again, as I said earlier, I haven't had a -- and 24 we have Democrats from the inner city and rural areas 25 all over the state. It wasn't the sole And it's not based on any sort of I can't speak for other people. But for We just haven't heard it. I work very well with them. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 269 1 They work very well with me. And I've not had one 2 come to me and say, 'Dan, we need to fix this.' 3 "And I'm not aware of any legislation to address any 4 of these issues that you bring up, which, I respect 5 you bring them up, but I just don't think there's any 6 -- there's just nothing here that you can point to. 7 So I believe we were good. 8 "QUESTION: 9 Page 2, the last sentence is 'Let's not sacrifice a I think we were right. In your last paragraph of the email on 10 very good bill for perfect, especially if perfect for 11 some gets us thrown out by the courts.' 12 "And what did you -- what did you mean by this? 13 "ANSWER: 14 Democrat officeholder that very often Democrats will 15 have constituents who don't think their bill is 16 perfect in their view. 17 don't let the Republicans pull this one over on you. 18 "And -- and Republicans, we have constituents who 19 will often call up and say, 'Don't let the Democrats 20 pull this over on you, you need to do this, this, 21 this, and this.' 22 for all of us, in both parties. 23 "And so my point was, that there were people, 24 apparently, who were contacting my office and all 25 upset about we should have this amendment or This is commonplace for a Republican or a So, heaven forbid, don't -- It happens on a lot of legislation EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 270 1 placards, or whatever. 2 "And that was my point: 3 amendment, it was part of the Indiana bill, the 4 courts upheld the Indiana bill, let's not -- let's 5 not sacrifice this important legislation because a -- 6 you know, a handful of people don't think it's 7 perfect. 8 "QUESTION: 9 it was perfect? Okay. Look, this is a good But not because you didn't think 10 "Object to the form of the question. 11 "ANSWER: 12 "QUESTION: 13 want to know: 14 bill would have been perfect if it didn't include the 15 disability amendment? 16 "ANSWER: 17 was -- what I was attempting to say -- maybe I didn't 18 say it artfully. 19 "But if we try to please every person in our 20 constituency on every piece of legislation so that 21 the -- in the eye of the beholder, that person gets 22 the perfect bill, then we will never pass anything. 23 "And the Democrats have the same problems on their 24 side. 25 sometimes Austin's in gridlock. Give me a question. Let me rephrase that. No. What I guess I For you, were you saying here that the No, I don't -- no. What I -- what I I thought it was a very good bill. That's why Washington is in gridlock and why EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 271 1 "QUESTION: And you referred to -- again, in your 2 last answer, the Indiana law? 3 "ANSWER: 4 "QUESTION: 5 email you say: 6 law that was approved by the courts.' 7 "But what makes it one of the -- you noted that it 8 was one of the best in the country. 9 think made it one of the best photo ID bills in the Yeah. And I think on the first page of this 'Our bill is similar to the Indiana What do you 10 country? 11 "ANSWER: 12 where it's taken me two or three -- I've only been 13 there four session, but it's taken -- four sessions, 14 but it's taken me two or three sessions to pass a 15 bill. 16 because over time you just get more -- very often, 17 more knowledge, more input, more buy-in from people. 18 "And -- and so, you know, I think by the time we got 19 to 2011, based on, again, this -- I don't remember 20 all the details of Indiana, but maybe there had been 21 some court cases that had been resolved or addressed 22 from '07 to '11. 23 think by then we probably had a better bill than we 24 had before, and that happens -- happens often. 25 "And, you know, just because all the Democrats -- we Well, I've worked on a lot of legislation And usually, over time, the bills get better I don't remember. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC But I just -- I 272 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 talked about voting along party lines earlier. Just 2 because all the Democrats voted against it doesn't 3 mean that -- you know, they may have -- they may have 4 thought that this bill's a little bit better bill 5 than before, because they've worked, obviously, to 6 try to improve it or amend it or work -- or work with 7 me. 8 they voted against it, but -- but -- 9 "QUESTION: So I just think it was probably a -- obviously And did you think it was better than 10 other photo ID bills in the country because it was 11 more restrictive? 12 "ANSWER: 13 thought it was a -- it was a well thought out bill at 14 the end of the day and I didn't think it was -- I 15 didn't think it was undue burden, as I've said many 16 times. 17 "And I think we were thoughtful in the deliberation 18 of it and I actually thought, and I -- and I seem to 19 recall Democrats saying at the time that we had a 20 very respectful 24- or 26-hour debate on the floor. 21 There was no acrimony. 22 was a very healthy, good discussion of the issue and 23 so that's, you know, what -- how I felt about it. 24 "QUESTION: 25 "ANSWER: No. I just -- no. I thought it was a -- I There was no -- it was -- it How did you vote on this amendment? Against it. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct Okay. 273 1 "QUESTION: Any why? 2 "ANSWER: 3 not meet the criteria of a document issued by the 4 state that would be something that would be as 5 foolproof as a driver's license or CHL or a military 6 document or passport. 7 "We have -- I think we have 36 public universities in 8 the state, countless private universities, countless 9 community colleges. I think that the belief was that this does And when you go to vote, it 10 would have been -- it could have been very confusing 11 for the election judge or the person working -- the 12 poll workers, to have a plethora of all these IDs. 13 It's pretty clear now, it's -- people can identify 14 all these other ones. 15 "QUESTION: 16 allowed to vote in person, but you can only vote by 17 mail, would you be losing something? 18 "Objection. 19 "ANSWER: 20 "QUESTION: 21 disadvantage to you? 22 "ANSWER: 23 mail. 24 "QUESTION: 25 testimony today about the Federal Courts and -- and Okay. But if you were told you're not Form. I'm not sure I understand. Would you feel that was some kind of a I'll be happy when I'm 65 and can vote by Okay. But -- but we've had -- heard some EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 274 1 perhaps the Supreme Court upholding Indiana's voter 2 ID law. 3 "Are you aware that the Supreme Court has upheld 4 Indiana's voter ID law? 5 "ANSWER: 6 today it seemed to me somewhere in the past that was 7 information that -- that I was aware of. 8 "QUESTION: 9 Legislature passed the voter ID law? It's as I -- I believe I testified earlier Were you aware of it in 2011, when the 10 "ANSWER: I can't speak for certain, but I believe 11 so. 12 "QUESTION: 13 law? 14 "ANSWER: 15 "QUESTION: 16 Justice precleared Georgia's voter ID law under the 17 Voting Rights Act? 18 "ANSWER: 19 "QUESTION: 20 about polls that you -- I think I'm not 21 mischaracterizing your testimony when I say the word 22 plural, polls. 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 specifically, which I think was the Baselice, which Are you aware that Georgia has a voter ID I think I've heard that. Are you aware that the Department of Actually, I do recall that story. We also -- you also talked a little bit Correct. We only heard one by name mentioned EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 275 1 I -- which I spell -- which I think we decided it was 2 B-a-s-e-l-i-c-e, poll. 3 "That was one of the polls that you referenced 4 earlier? 5 "ANSWER: 6 "QUESTION: 7 poll that showed that 90 percent of Texans favored 8 voter ID. 9 "ANSWER: Correct. Is that the poll -- you also mentioned a Is that the Baselice poll? Yes, I believe it is. 10 "QUESTION: But you did -- you did look at other 11 polls when considering voter ID in 2011, or before? 12 "ANSWER: 13 at a poll. 14 Baselice poll. 15 polls. 16 "You know, sometimes a newspaper could conduct a poll 17 or a TV station or other entities and it's reported 18 by the media. 19 at a poll. 20 they were all consistent. 21 "QUESTION: 22 you were aware of showed broad support across -- and 23 I don't -- if I'm mischaracterizing your testimony, 24 let me know -- across political ideologies. 25 "In other words -- and I think you used words broad I don't know that the word would be looked I don't even know that I looked at the But I've read -- I've read about So I don't know that I actually looked But I looked at the reports of polls, and Earlier you mentioned that the polls that EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 276 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 support among Republicans, Independents, and 2 Democrats. 3 to right. 4 "ANSWER: 5 remember a number where 96 percent of the Republicans 6 and 74 percent of Democrats supported photo voter -- 7 photo voter ID. 8 in the past I read. 9 "QUESTION: And I went backwards. I went from left I should have gone from right to left. Yes, the polls that I saw, it seems to me I There seemed to be a poll somewhere Were you aware that photo voter ID 10 garnered support from the majority of minorities in 11 Texas in 2011 when the Texas Legislature was 12 considering voter ID? 13 "ANSWER: 14 I believed that was the case, that the constituents 15 of the legislators who voted against the bill, the 16 majority of them favored it. 17 "QUESTION: 18 in your opinion photo voter ID was supported by a 19 majority of minorities in Texas? 20 "ANSWER: 21 "QUESTION: 22 you've considered, you know, throughout your 23 consideration of voter ID and the various times it 24 was brought up in the Texas Legislature. 25 what else did you consider, other than that? I think my testimony earlier today was that So at the time that you voted for SB 14, Yes. So we've talked about polls as one thing EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Did you -- 277 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 "ANSWER: Well, first of all, did I think it was 2 important? 3 the ballot box. 4 request of people to have a photo to vote? 5 many things I've said today, you need a photo for so 6 many other things. 7 "Based on all the people I had talked to over a 8 period of time, looking at all the polls and -- and 9 you said something that just actually made me think 10 of something about the majority of minority voters. 11 "Very often, if we have a contentious issue where -- 12 not the legislatures -- legislators, because 13 sometimes legislators will divided -- but the 14 citizens, where citizens are divided on an issue, 15 they show up at the Capitol and rally for and again. 16 "I don't recall anyone -- I could stand to be 17 corrected -- but I don't recall at any time there 18 being a large group -- I mean, you know, where we 19 hear them yelling outside, which we often do on bills 20 opposing voter ID. 21 "And then when you have one group -- or for it, to be 22 honest. 23 - or for it, to be honest. 24 been small groups that came up, or individuals. 25 "And what that means is that -- that it was And I did, to protect the integrity of Did I think it was a reasonable Based on I mean -- and then when you have one group I mean, there may have EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 278 1 overwhelming support for it and it was -- it was a 2 no-brainer to a lot of people that this is a -- that 3 this is reasonable to require and we want to protect 4 our ballot box. 5 "So it was -- it was very natural, and very expected, 6 I think, by the people, that we were going to pass it 7 for that reason. 8 "QUESTION: 9 of the Texas voter ID laws, you know, either in '07, Were you aware during your consideration 10 '09, or '11, that counties were having to cancel or 11 remove noncitizens from their voter rolls? 12 "ANSWER: 13 and really thing through this. 14 was aware through conversations, that a number of 15 counties were trying to clean up their voter rolls 16 from people who were deceased and people who may not 17 have been eligible to register, yes. 18 "QUESTION: 19 you said this, and correct me if I'm wrong, you said 20 it was fairly easy to register to vote in Texas; is 21 that right? 22 "ANSWER: 23 "QUESTION: 24 aware of any voter registration fraud in Texas? 25 "ANSWER: I believe that -- and I'd have to go back But I believe, and You said earlier that -- I believe that Yes. Do you believe that there were -- are you I think there was testimony of voter EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 279 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 registration fraud. 2 "QUESTION: 3 someone fraudulently registered to vote and was not 4 apprehended or caught, how difficult would it have 5 been for them to -- to vote? 6 "ANSWER: 7 "And to answer your last question, it took me a 8 second to cycle through, if people know they have to 9 have a photo to vote, then it could impact voter Prior to the enactment of SB 14, if It would have been easy. 10 registration fraud because people would know I can 11 register to vote, but I actually can't vote if I 12 don't have a photo ID matching up with the name I've 13 registered under. 14 could impact it. 15 "QUESTION: 16 could deter voter registration fraud? 17 "ANSWER: 18 "QUESTION: 19 Legislature considered voter ID? 20 "ANSWER: 21 that -- that I was a senator, was 2007. 22 if it was considered before that. 23 "QUESTION: 24 obviously, it wasn't passed, right? 25 "ANSWER: So it could obviously impact -- So you think that Texas voter ID law In that context, it could. Do you recall the first time that Texas Well, the first time that I'm aware of, What happened in 2007? I don't know I mean, Yeah, we passed it in the Senate. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC There 280 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 were a couple of senators missing from the floor. 2 And the 21-vote rule is based on the number of 3 senators present, not 31 senators, so the fewer 4 senators, then your threshold decreases. 5 were fewer senators that day. 6 "We passed the bill. 7 - and said that he was in the restroom and was not 8 aware of the vote and -- and protested. 9 was another Democrat who was not there that day. And there Senator Whitmire objected and - And there And 10 the protest went -- and the protest went on quite a 11 while from Senator Whitmire, that it wasn't right, it 12 wasn't fair, it was an important bill, he should have 13 been able to vote. 14 "And so the lieutenant governor, David Dewhurst at 15 the time, said, 'Okay, we'll -- we'll have another 16 vote.' 17 respected his decision. 18 "I've never seen in my entire time of over 16,000 19 votes a vote be -- the gavel -- the gavel come down - 20 - bless you -- the gavel come down and a senator 21 complain and a -- and the lieutenant governor give 22 them a mulligan. 23 lieutenant governor did. 24 "And while we went through this 20-minute, or 25 whatever it was, debate on should we have a revote, Not everyone agreed with that, but we I've never seen that. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC But the Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 281 1 the Democrats went and got the senator at his home. 2 "I'm not -- you know, I don't know if he was ill or 3 just late. 4 Senator Uresti, and as we were going through the roll 5 call, we do it alphabetically, just as we got pretty 6 much down at the end of the alphabet, Senator Uresti 7 suddenly appeared on the Senate floor and we lost by 8 a vote -- 9 "QUESTION: They went and got that senator, it was And so it was passed -- 10 "ANSWER: -- as I recall. 11 "QUESTION: -- it was passed out, but then the vote 12 was redone. And therefore it never made it out of 13 the Senate in 2007? 14 "ANSWER: 15 go back and check the archives, the -- for a vote. 16 We didn't have the 21-vote, or we lost by a vote, 17 however the vote -- however the count came out. 18 "QUESTION: 19 did in voter ID in 2007? 20 "ANSWER: 21 "QUESTION: 22 was again considered by the Legislature in 2009? 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 "ANSWER: Yes, because we, as I recall -- I'd have to So the blocker bill is ultimately what Correct. And then am I right saying that voter ID Correct. What happened in 2009? I'd have to go back and look at the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 282 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 history. I believe it passed out of the Senate, and 2 I don't know what happened. 3 were shown the documents, I would remember right 4 away, but I don't remember what happened next. 5 "QUESTION: 6 correct? 7 "ANSWER: 8 "QUESTION: 9 "ANSWER: I can't remember. If I But it wasn't passed by the Legislature, Correct. Do you know what chubbing is? Yes. 10 "QUESTION: What is chubbing? 11 "ANSWER: 12 the Senate. 13 and speak -- I don't know all the House rules 14 verbatim -- but I believe you can speak for ten 15 minutes against a bill, and so -- any bill. 16 "So what happens is -- and the Democrats have used 17 this on a number of occasions, in my recollection. 18 And there are -- at any time there may have been 50 19 or 55 Democrats in the House. 20 one -- but they would chub every -- the House, as I 21 explained earlier, has a different way they -- has a 22 different way they bring bills to the floor. 23 "And so my memory is that voter ID was so many bills 24 down, and they chubbed every bill. 25 for ten minutes, and just before their time ran out In the House they have different rules than In the House you are allowed to stand up I don't know if each So they'd talk EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 283 1 they basically ended their -- 'That's all I have to 2 say.' 3 "So they brought the process -- the legislative 4 process to a grinding halt on everything in order to 5 slow that bill down. 6 "And I don't know if that's what eventually killed it 7 or the clock just ran out. 8 Because the votes were in the House. 9 "Clearly, the Republicans had, in 2009, I don't know, 10 a -- I'm not sure what the majority, but they had the 11 votes to pass it. 12 "QUESTION: 13 bill X that's buried down on the order of when it 14 would come up on the floor -- 15 "ANSWER: 16 "QUESTION: 17 kill it. 18 "ANSWER: 19 "QUESTION: 20 bill in front of that, right? 21 "ANSWER: 22 "QUESTION: 23 bill from ever coming up to the floor? 24 "ANSWER: 25 "QUESTION: And then the next person did it. I just don't recall. Let's just hypothetically say there's Right. -- that a group of legislators want to Yes. And they'll talk for ten minutes on every Yes. In the hopes of basically preventing that Correct. If there are bills after bill X, what EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 284 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 happens to them? 2 "ANSWER: 3 "QUESTION: 4 "ANSWER: 5 "QUESTION: 6 "ANSWER: 7 the Senate. 8 "QUESTION: 9 "ANSWER: They all die, too. Okay. Everything dies. And then in 2011, what happened in 2011? In 2011 we passed the bill and -- out of The Senate? And then it passed out of the House at some 10 point. I don't know if it came back to the Senate or 11 not. 12 the governor and was signed. 13 "QUESTION: 14 "ANSWER: 15 rule and we passed it as -- and I forget the 16 procedural matter in which we did, but we passed it 17 without the two-thirds rule. 18 "QUESTION: 19 and 2009 is -- is that the reason that the Senate 20 made an exception for voter ID in 2011? 21 "ANSWER: 22 reason we wanted to pass it was the integrity of the 23 ballot box. and 90 percent of the people, in our 24 view, supported it. 25 "But rules are designed -- rules are designed for I don't remember if it was amended. It went to Did you have two-thirds in the Senate? We made an exception for the two-thirds Do you think that what happened in 2007 I think it's part of the reason. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC The main 285 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 both parties to be able to work through the system 2 and pass or stop legislation. 3 "For example, the blocker bill, as we've talked about 4 before, was designed to be a one-party, really, how 5 to get bills to the floor. 6 might say, to try to bring people together, because 7 you have to work across the aisle to get it done. 8 Democrats need us, we need them. 9 "But the Democrats in the Senate had fallen into a -- Rules can be abused. And it was designed, some 10 had begun a habit of just saying to us, 11 of us -- 11 and there were 11 and 12 at various times in the 12 Senate -- that 'We're just going to' -- on a lot of 13 bills, on a lot of bills -- 'We're not voting for 14 your bill.' 15 "And then we would sit down and say, 'Well, we'd like 16 to -- let's negotiate, and how can we make this 17 work?' 18 interested.' 19 say, 'No, wasting time, not interested.' 20 "And -- and so what happens is -- and I never quite 21 understood that tactic, because you go to special 22 session. 23 knows we don't use the 21-bill rule. 24 bills. 25 "And then over in the House again, I think the House 'No, we're not negotiating, we're not So they used the blocker bill just to We don't use the 21-bill rule. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Everyone And we can pass Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 286 1 Republicans were not only upset that the voter -- 2 that the voter ID was chubbed, but everybody else's 3 bills died behind -- I don't know how many there 4 were. 5 community, it may have been a Democrat one or 6 Republican, but all bills died. 7 "So, you know, I think in 2011 we said the Democrats 8 have used the rules; whether we like the way the used 9 the rules or not, they used the rules to stop the So there might have been a bill needed for a 10 bill and we used the rules to pass the bill. 11 "And -- you know, I said to a Democrat senator one 12 time, I'll never quite understand -- and I have a 13 very good relationship and work well and we pass -- 14 work well on a lot of bills together. 15 "But I said to a senator once, I said, 'I've never 16 understood -- I've never understood you all locking 17 arms and saying no on these bills that you don't 18 want; because if you would negotiate with us, we'd 19 pass a bill that you might find more palatable 20 because you would have influence on. 21 not interested in negotiating, then we're not going 22 to have a special session and you're not going to 23 have any influence, because we only need 16 votes. 24 Simple majority.' 25 thinking. But if you're I've never quite understood that EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Direct 287 1 "If I were in the minority party, I would want to try 2 and -- and make every bill, if I know it's eventually 3 going to pass, I would like to have as much influence 4 on it as I can. 5 "Sorry to interrupt. 6 There was a discussion off the record. 7 "QUESTION: 8 Earlier we were talking a little bit about student 9 IDs. How are we doing on time? If you'll permit me to run through. Do you know whether noncitizens can attend 10 state universities? 11 "ANSWER: 12 "QUESTION: 13 of 18 years old? 14 the age of 18 years old? 15 "ANSWER: 16 "QUESTION: 17 "ANSWER: 18 "QUESTION: 19 "ANSWER: 20 "QUESTION: 21 does it? 22 "ANSWER: 23 "QUESTION: 24 are you aware of any student ID issued by a Texas 25 university that shows date of birth? They can. What about persons who are below the age Can -- what about persons who below Can they? Can they attend state universities? Yes. Does a student ID prove citizenship? No. It doesn't even prove state residency, No. Does a student ID, to your knowledge -- EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "ANSWER: 2 MS. WOLF: 3 Senator Patrick's deposition. 4 THE COURT: 5 MR. GEAR: No." That concludes Defendants readings from Okay. Bruce Gear on behalf of the United States. 6 Samuel Oliker (phonetic) will be reading the part of Dan 7 Patrick. 8 I have a copy for the Court. 9 THE COURT: 10 MR. GEAR: 11 THE COURT: 288 May I approach? Yes. I also have a copy for the court reporter. Thank you. 12 EXAMINATION OF DAN PATRICK BY EXCERPTS OF DEPOSITION TESTIMONY 13 (QUESTIONS READ BY MR. GEAR; ANSWERS READ BY MR. OLIKER) 14 "QUESTION: And is the only kind of fraud that could 15 have been prevented by SB 14 in-person voter 16 impersonation fraud? 17 "ANSWER: 18 statement. 19 "QUESTION: 20 take a look on Page 118 of the journal, from 21 January 26th, at Floor Amendment No. 12. 22 MR. GEAR: 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 this, and tell me when you're ready. I believe that would be an accurate If we could take a look at -- if we could Also marked as PL13. Okay. If you could take a moment to look at EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 289 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "ANSWER: Number 12. 2 "Yes. 3 "QUESTION: 4 the underlying documentation that you need to obtain 5 a state form of SB 14 photo ID would be provided 6 free; is that correct? 7 "ANSWER: 8 "QUESTION: 9 with the effectiveness of the purpose of SB 14? Okay. This amendment would have provided that Yes. And would this amendment have interfered 10 "ANSWER: I can't speak to that. 11 "QUESTION: 12 opinion on that? 13 "ANSWER: 14 prepared to give you an answer quickly. 15 "QUESTION: 16 wouldn't harm the ability of the State of Texas to 17 verify a voter's identity in any way that you can 18 think of, would it? 19 "ANSWER: 20 know that that may have been the issue. 21 may have been that there's a cost to produce a 22 document, and, you know, if there was a reasonable 23 low cost for someone to -- you know, do that. 24 don't know if that's changed since then or not. 25 at the time, I think that was the view. Sitting here today, do you have any I'd have to think it through. I'm not Receiving a free birth certificate I don't know that that's the -- I don't EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC The issue And I But Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "QUESTION: 2 correct? 3 "ANSWER: 4 "QUESTION: 5 tabling means it doesn't go forward, it kills the 6 amendment? 7 "ANSWER: 8 "QUESTION: 9 line vote? 290 So this amendment was tabled, is that Correct. And just to make sure that I understand, Correct. And was this amendment tabled on a party 10 "ANSWER: Yes. 11 "QUESTION: 12 to table, correct? 13 "ANSWER: 14 "QUESTION: 15 of obtaining documents on the State rather than the 16 voters, is that right? 17 "ANSWER: 18 "QUESTION: 19 "ANSWER: 20 speaks for itself. 21 "QUESTION: 22 "ANSWER: 23 "QUESTION: 24 from January 26, on Page 110. 25 "ANSWER: And you voted against this -- you voted Yes. This amendment would have placed the cost Yes. And did you oppose that concept? Well, I think by -- I think my record So you wanted the cost imposed on voters? Yes, if it was a reasonable cost. Take a look at Floor Amendment Number 13, Yes, sir. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 291 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "QUESTION: So does it appear to you that this 2 amendment, by switching the language 'that has not' 3 or 'regardless of whether it has,' the purpose of 4 this was to allow for the use of IDs even when they 5 have expired? 6 "ANSWER: 7 "QUESTION: 8 correct? 9 "ANSWER: Yes. And this amendment was tabled, is that Correct. 10 "QUESTION: And again, that was a party line vote, 11 correct? 12 "ANSWER: 13 "QUESTION: 14 "ANSWER: 15 "QUESTION: 16 use of indefinitely expired IDs? 17 "ANSWER: 18 "QUESTION: 19 effectiveness of SB 14? 20 "ANSWER: 21 have a valid -- you should have a valid current. 22 it's just my belief. 23 "QUESTION: 24 whether that would interfere with the effectiveness 25 of the bill? Correct. And you voted in favor of tabling? Correct. Would this amendment have allowed for the That's probably how I would have read that. And would that have interfered with the As I spoke earlier, I believe we should So But you can't say, one way or another, EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Cross 292 1 "ANSWER: No. 2 "QUESTION: 3 Number 24. 4 "This amendment would have allowed individual 5 counties to decide whether to issue voter 6 registration certificates with a voter's photo, isn't 7 that correct? 8 "ANSWER: 9 "QUESTION: Take a look with me at Floor Amendment Yes. This amendment was also tables on a party 10 line vote, correct? 11 "ANSWER: 12 "QUESTION: 13 let individual counties decide whether or not to 14 issue photo voter registration cards? 15 "ANSWER: 16 "QUESTION: 17 the effectiveness of SB 14? 18 "ANSWER: 19 specifics of the debate. 20 "QUESTION: 21 given that, in alleviating the travel burdens that 22 you identified -- at least with respect to disabled 23 voters, and that there aren't DPS offices in every 24 county -- so through this amendment would you have 25 had a place in every county in Texas, if the county Yes. Why wouldn't it have been a good idea to I don't recall. Would this amendment have interfered with I don't know, because I don't recall the Would this amendment have been helpful, EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Cross 293 1 wanted, they would have the option to provide photo 2 ID? 3 "ANSWER: 4 "QUESTION: 5 to open DPS offices, can it? 6 "ANSWER: 7 "QUESTION: 8 have been able to decide to offer its voters a photo 9 ID? I don't know. Well, a county can't unilaterally decide No. But under this amendment a county would 10 "ANSWER: Under this amendment, I think so. 11 "QUESTION: 12 why you opposed this? 13 "ANSWER: 14 "QUESTION: 15 Number 29 on Page 129. 16 "ANSWER: 17 "QUESTION: 18 expanded DPS's operating hours to at least some 19 evening and weekend hours, is that correct? 20 "ANSWER: 21 "QUESTION: 22 party line vote, is that correct? 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 correct? And sitting here today, you don't recall I do not. If you could take a look at Amendment All right. This is an amendment that would have Yes. And this amendment was also tables on a Yes. So you voted against this amendment, EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 294 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "ANSWER: Yes. 2 "QUESTION: 3 with the effectiveness of SB 14's stated purpose? 4 "ANSWER: 5 based on sitting here looking at this today. 6 was obviously some discussion by Senator Ellis and 7 may have been some discussion by someone who opposed 8 it. 9 "QUESTION: And would this amendment have interfered I can't respond because I -- I don't know There Don't know. Would this amendment have made it less 10 burdensome for voters without a photo ID who work 11 hourly jobs to get to a DPS office? 12 "ANSWER: 13 "QUESTION: 14 voter who has a 9:00 to 5:00 job, without leave, to 15 have the opportunity to go to DPS on the weekend to 16 get an EIC if they needed one? 17 "ANSWER: 18 "QUESTION: 19 is Floor Amendment 30. 20 look at that. 21 "ANSWER: 22 "QUESTION: 23 Secretary of State to report on a number of issues 24 related to the implementation of SB 14, is that 25 correct? I can't speculate on that. You don't think it would be helpful for a I can't speculate on it. The last amendment I'd like to talk about Okay. If you could take a moment to Okay. This amendment would have asked the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Cross 295 1 "ANSWER: Yes. 2 "QUESTION: 3 voters, yearly, who voted a provisional ballot 4 because they came to the polls without acceptable ID? 5 "ANSWER: 6 to table the amendment. 7 "QUESTION: 8 the Secretary of State to find out whether the ID 9 requirement was having a disparate impact on women, Did you oppose finding out the number of The amendment speaks for itself and I voted And did you oppose specifically asking 10 elderly voters, minority voters, students, or persons 11 with disabilities? 12 "ANSWER: 13 to table the amendment. 14 "QUESTION: 15 line vote, is that correct? 16 "ANSWER: 17 "QUESTION: 18 conducted on the number of students that had driver's 19 licenses? 20 "ANSWER: 21 "QUESTION: 22 Texas students that had driver's licenses actually 23 something you considered while considering this 24 amendment? 25 "ANSWER: The amendment speaks for itself and I voted And the amendment was tables on a party Yes. So to that point, were there any studies There may have been or not. I don't know. So was -- was the -- was the number of It was something that -- you know, that EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 296 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 occurred to me, that not all students would have 2 driver's -- not all students would have a car. 3 the vast majority -- not all -- but the vast majority 4 of college students over the age of 18 likely had a 5 driver's license. 6 "QUESTION: 7 are you getting this information? 8 on a general intuition? 9 "ANSWER: I guess my question for you is: Yeah. But Where Is that just based I don't -- I don't -- there may have 10 been or may not have been. I don't know if there was 11 any research on that. 12 today -- if you were to go out on the street and ask 13 a thousand people, 'Do you think the average student 14 in college over the age of 18 has a driver's 15 license?', I think most people would say, 'Yeah, 16 probably so.' 17 if they didn't, they are able-bodied people and they 18 can go to DPS and get a free -- a free ID. 19 "QUESTION: 20 then, the exact percentage of Texas students that 21 lacked a driver's license; is that right? 22 "ANSWER: 23 "QUESTION: 24 facts or evidence presented that suggested that 25 student IDs had been used for voting fraud anywhere? But if you were to ask me It doesn't mean all of them did. But But you don't know, and you didn't know That is correct. And do you recall whether there was any EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Cross 297 1 "ANSWER: I don't recall. 2 "QUESTION: 3 voter fraud committed anywhere with student IDs? 4 "ANSWER: 5 "QUESTION: 6 or any of your staff conduct any analysis on how many 7 registered voters have used student IDs to vote in 8 previous elections? 9 "ANSWER: Sitting here today, are you aware of I'm not aware today. Prior to the enactment of SB 14, did you No, not that I'm aware of. Not that I 10 recall. 11 "QUESTION: 12 analysis on the effect of excluding student IDs on 13 student voter turnout? 14 "ANSWER: 15 "QUESTION: 16 any analysis on the effect of excluding student IDs 17 on registered student voters at historically black 18 colleges and universities in Texas? 19 "ANSWER: 20 "QUESTION: 21 that was produced in this litigation." 22 MR. SCOTT: 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 dated February 24, 2011, to Did you or any of your staff perform any No. And did you or any of your staff conduct No. Okay. I'm going to hand you an e-mail Also marked as PL-331. Okay. And this appears to be an e-mail from you EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Cross 298 1 catherine@kingstreetpatriots.org; is that correct? 2 "ANSWER: 3 "QUESTION: 4 "ANSWER: 5 the founder of King Street Patriots or True the Vote. 6 Maybe not King Street Patriots. 7 King Street Patriots. 8 "QUESTION: 9 "ANSWER: Yes. And who is Catherine? Catherine Englebredth. I believe she is She's involved with Let's leave it at that. And what is King Street Patriots? It's a -- I think it's a Tea Party group. 10 "QUESTION: Okay. 11 second paragraph, just as you did in the previous e- 12 mail that we looked at, that '77 counties in Texas do 13 not have a DPS office,' right? 14 "ANSWER: 15 have a lot of things. 16 "QUESTION: 17 specifically about -- 18 "ANSWER: 19 "QUESTION: 20 "ANSWER: 21 "QUESTION: 22 "ANSWER: 23 "QUESTION: 24 that a disabled person may not be able to get 'a ride 25 over 75 miles if they live in one of these counties Yes. And so you note here, in the 77 counties, or more, in Texas, don't Okay. But this -- but this is Yes. -- the lack of DPS offices -- Yes. -- in particular counties? Yes. Okay. Great. And then you further note EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Cross 299 1 to get the photo ID' -- 2 "ANSWER: 3 "QUESTION: 4 "ANSWER: 5 suspenders.' 6 disabilities had -- to make sure they had the 7 opportunity to vote in person if they wanted to vote. 8 "QUESTION: 9 here, is that 'Therefore, a disabled person may' not Right. -- right? Yeah. This was a little 'belt and I wanted to be sure that people who had Right. And one of your -- your points 10 'be disabled to get a ride to their local precinct' - 11 - or, sorry, 'Therefore, a disabled person may be 12 able to get a ride to their local precinct, but not a 13 ride over 75 miles if they live in one of these 14 counties to get the photo ID.' 15 "ANSWER: 16 "QUESTION: 17 earlier that -- your testimony was that people get 18 rides all the time and that you didn't think it was 19 harder for people without cars to get an ID. 20 "ANSWER: 21 "QUESTION: 22 a burden, if someone is disabled, to get a ride from 23 someone to a DPS, but it's -- 24 -- but it's not a burden if someone needs to get a 25 ride for any other reason from someone to get to DPS? Yes. Okay. And I believe that you testified If they were not disabled. So if the person is -- so you think it's EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Cross 300 1 "ANSWER: You know, some of these things you apply 2 your common sense and your knowledge. 3 we reasonable people -- that's how we write 4 legislation, very often. 5 And you come to the conclusion, as I've said earlier 6 in my testimony, that if a person chooses to live in 7 a rural -- in a rural area, they usually have some 8 means of getting somewhere; otherwise... 9 Well, and again, take the disabled community to the And we -- and 10 side. I'm talking about an able-bodied community -- 11 whether they're black, white, or brown, poor, middle 12 class, or wealthy -- they have -- if they live in a 13 rural area, they have some means of getting 14 somewhere. 15 family member has a car or a friend has a car. 16 It is not logical, to me, that someone lives in a 17 remote area without any access to transportation to 18 get anywhere; otherwise, they would be very isolated. 19 "QUESTION: 20 living in a rural area being a choice, right? 21 "ANSWER: 22 "QUESTION: 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 a choice? They either have their own car or a Do you think that some -- you mentioned It can be. It can be. Not always, but it can be a choice. But you would admit that it's not always EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 301 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "ANSWER: Yeah, I don't know why people choose to 2 live places. 3 state, choose to live in a city, choose to live in a 4 county, choose to live wherever we live. 5 it's by where we work. 6 for everyone. 7 where they choose to live. 8 "QUESTION: 9 live below the poverty line in a rural area, that it But all of us choose to live in a You know. Sometimes So I can't speak But very often, people choose to live Would you agree that if you are poor or 10 may not necessarily be a choice just to pack up and 11 move? 12 "ANSWER: 13 not be a choice. 14 "QUESTION: 15 find it -- in your Number 2 here, in that same 16 Paragraph, it's the last sentence: 17 a burden in a suburban or urban area, e.g. there is 18 not a single DPS office inside the Loop.' 19 that -- 20 "ANSWER: 21 "QUESTION: 22 mean inside of the -- Interstate 610, correct? 23 area of Houston that's inside of Interstate 610; is 24 that right? 25 "ANSWER: Yeah, I understand that sometimes it might Okay. So you also state -- and let me 'It could even be Isn't Yes. Okay. Yes. And by 'inside the Loop,' do you And I believe that's correct. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC The I may Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Cross 302 1 be incorrect, and we may have opened one since then, 2 but I -- at the time, I believe that was correct. 3 "QUESTION: 4 locations in the Loop? 5 "ANSWER: 6 "QUESTION: 7 time in your view, the lack of DPS offices in some 8 counties and the lack of DPS offices inside the Loop 9 would impose an undue burden on disabled individuals But at this time there were no DPS I believe it. Okay. So is it fair to say that at this 10 who needed to travel longer distances to obtain a 11 photo ID? 12 "ANSWER: 13 The document's pretty clear. 14 "QUESTION: 15 your view that the lack of DPS offices inside the 16 Loop could pose a burden -- an undue burden on 17 disabled individuals -- 18 "ANSWER: 19 a significant disability who otherwise, in my view, 20 are people who kind of try to live independently. 21 There are a lot of disabled people who try to live on 22 their own. 23 "QUESTION: 24 everything that we've discussed today then, looking 25 at these e-mails, that you greatly consider the I think the document speaks for itself. At the time you wrote this e-mail, it was It could impose a burden on people who have So it seems -- it seems to me, based on EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Cross 303 1 burden that disabled individuals may face in trying 2 to obtain a photo ID; is that accurate? 3 "ANSWER: 4 considered.' 5 "QUESTION: 6 individuals, specifically disabled individuals, could 7 face burdens in obtaining a photo ID, and that was a 8 problem that you wanted to remedy; is that -- is that 9 right? Well, no, if the -- if the word 'greatly But obviously, I considered it. And you were persuaded that certain 10 "ANSWER: I think that my testimony and my documents 11 and the amendment speak for themselves. 12 "QUESTION: 13 operating [sic] a photo ID that would fall on any 14 groups other than disabled? 15 "ANSWER: 16 burden for a great number of people or a burden for a 17 significant number of people. 18 before, and don't mind repeating: 19 society where many people are required to have a 20 photo ID for a variety of things. 21 I mean, you know, the federal government, for 22 example, has decided you have to have a legal photo 23 ID to get on an airplane; even people who live in 24 remote rural areas, even people who are poor, even -- 25 you know, people who fall into all categories, And so did you consider the burden of No, because I didn't see it as a great As I've testified We live in a EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Cross 304 1 actually including people with disabilities. 2 So I did not see it as an undue burden for able- 3 bodied people, regardless of their economic status. 4 "QUESTION: 5 not going to vote in a particular election because 6 they're afraid that their vote will be diluted by 7 fraudulent votes? 8 "ANSWER: 9 it, but I don't -- nothing specific that I can Has any voter ever told you that they're Not that I recall. Someone may have said 10 recall. 11 "QUESTION: 12 of SB 14 there were Texas voters who did not vote 13 because they believed that in-person voter 14 impersonation would cancel out their vote? 15 "ANSWER: 16 anyone say it to me. 17 "QUESTION: 18 at least for a while, was making applicants who 19 wanted to vote with an EIC give them their 20 fingerprints? 21 "ANSWER: 22 "QUESTION: 23 be able to do? 24 "ANSWER: 25 you get your driver's license, we give a fingerprint. Do you believe that prior to the passage I wouldn't know that, but I've never heard Would it surprise you to learn that DPS, No. Do you think that's something they out to I stand to be corrected, but I believe when EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 305 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 When you get a CHL, you get a fingerprint. And when 2 you're in the military, you get a fingerprint. 3 So -- so for some other documents that we already 4 require -- and, again, I have to stand corrected on 5 the driver's license, but I know that to get a CHL 6 you have to submit fingerprints. 7 "QUESTION: 8 somebody get fingerprinted in order to be able to 9 vote? Do you think it's appropriate to make 10 "ANSWER: 11 appropriate to make someone give a fingerprint to get 12 a driver's license?' 13 sure that we have integrity at the ballot box. 14 "QUESTION: 15 lieutenant governor, would you agree that illegal 16 immigration has been a significant issue? 17 "ANSWER: 18 "QUESTION: 19 illegal immigration were one thing that specifically 20 appealed to voters? 21 "ANSWER: 22 "QUESTION: 23 campaign has used on the Internet?" 24 MR. SCOTT: 25 You could back that down and say, 'Is it We're trying to establish to be Senator Patrick, in your campaign for Yes. Do you believe that your positions on Yes. Exhibit 9, is this an image that your And that's also marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 330. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 306 Patrick / By excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "ANSWER: You know, I assume so. We -- it was a long 2 campaign, obviously. 3 "QUESTION: 4 this image? 5 "ANSWER: 6 getting on a train, is what it appears to me, or 7 maybe it's climbing a fence. 8 be a railcar. 9 "QUESTION: The record speaks for itself. Could you describe what's pictured in Well, it speaks for itself. It's people Hard to say. It could It could be a fence. Are the three men pictured supposed to 10 represent illegal immigrants? 11 "ANSWER: 12 that would be my -- I think that's what it would 13 suggest. 14 "QUESTION: 15 race of the persons pictured? 16 "ANSWER: 17 photo I've been given. 18 "QUESTION: 19 "ANSWER: 20 tell, in my view. 21 because the face is -- the whole person is -- is 22 dark. 23 "QUESTION: 24 "ANSWER: 25 "QUESTION: Don't know. I didn't do the ad, but -- but And as you look at this ad, what's the You can't tell by -- you can't tell by the Do they look Anglo to you? The one in the middle -- it's impossible to And the one closest, impossible, They are dark images, correct? They're dark images. Why does this ad use the word 'invasion'? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 307 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 "ANSWER: 2 numbers of illegal immigrants that had been pouring 3 over the border in recent times. 4 use different words, but it's been a significant 5 number of people. 6 MR. FRIEDLAND: 7 Because the word 'invasion' applied to the Other people might And that's it for the reading, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. SCOTT: Your Honor, the State would call Keith 10 Ingram. 11 (Pause) 12 THE COURT: 13 MR. INGRAM: 14 THE COURT: 15 Hi. Good afternoon. Howdy. You can approach over here and raise your right hand. 16 BRIAN KEITH INGRAM, DEFENDANTS' WITNESS, SWORN 17 DIRECT EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. SCOTT: 19 Q Would you state your name for the record please, sir? 20 A Certainly. 21 Q Mr. Ingram, would you introduce yourself to the Court and 22 let her know a little bit about who you are and what you do for 23 a living? 24 A 25 the Director of the Elections Division at the Secretary of Sure. My name is Brian Keith Ingram. My name is Keith Ingram. I go by Keith. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC And I am 308 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 State's office. 2 Q How long have you served in that position? 3 A Two years, nine months, five days. 4 (Laughter) 5 Q Who's counting? 6 A But who's counting. 7 Q What does the Director of Elections for the Secretary of 8 State do? 9 A Well, the Secretary of State is the chief election officer 10 for the State of Texas and the Legislature has instructed her 11 to create a division to fulfill that responsibility of hers. 12 And I'm the director of that division. 13 Q And how many people do you got working for you? 14 A Currently just under 30. 15 Q Well, how is it possible to conduct all the elections in 16 the State of Texas with 30 people and yourself? 17 A 18 assistance for the folks who actually put on the elections, so 19 the county officials, the city school, and other political 20 subdivisions that actually put on the election. 21 their questions. 22 beforehand. 23 election itself. 24 Q 25 the panhandle, correct? We either have 28 or 29. Well, we don't do the elections. We're sort of technical We give them materials. We answer We prepare them We do that sort of thing, but we don't do the Well, for instance, yesterday there was an election up in EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 309 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 A That's right, SD 28 special election was yesterday. 2 Q Would that have been -- what would be your involvement 3 from the Secretary of State in implementing that election? 4 A 5 proclamation, setting the date, and telling the Governor what 6 the calendar was going to be for the election. 7 answer a lot of questions from the 51 counties involved because 8 they're not used to special elections, and so we had to give 9 them a lot of handholding and guidance. Well, we worked with the Governor's Office on the We had to And then last night we 10 took in the returns to post on our website for the public. 11 Q Did you-all run into any problems? 12 A We did have a problem yesterday, yes, sir. 13 Q What kind? 14 A Lamb County ran out of ballots in the middle of the 15 afternoon and needed help from us on how to create emergency 16 ballots. 17 Q Any issues at all with voter ID? 18 A No. 19 Q How do you-all track problems like -- so, Lamb County 20 calls, they have a special election, they tell you we ran out 21 of ballots. 22 over the course of an election? 23 A 24 had to take the call and then direct one of my lawyers to help 25 them with the process for emergency ballots. Do you-all track those problems as they develop Well, in that case, Lamb County called me directly and I And so, yes, we EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 310 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 handle some things by phone. We handle some things by email. 2 Things like that, that are emergencies, we handle by phone. 3 Q So, what is the process in Texas for registering to vote? 4 A There are two main ways that we register to vote in Texas. 5 The primary way is the regular National Voter Registration Act 6 postcard application, the piece of paper that is returned to 7 the county voter registrar. 8 of Public Safety. 9 license or applies for a Texas driver's license or ID or any The second way is the Department Whenever someone changes their driver's 10 other transaction that DPS has with an individual. 11 ask that person if they are interested in registering to vote 12 or updating their voter registration. 13 check a box on the form on the computer and the information 14 related to voter registration will be transmitted 15 electronically to our office. 16 ways that we register voters in Texas. 17 Q 18 Registration Act? 19 A 20 entities like DPS, who issue driver's licenses, to be 21 participants in the voter registration process. 22 Q 23 sections within the NVRA that apply to the maintenance of 24 voters' records from your standpoint as the Director of 25 Elections for the State of Texas? You mentioned NVRA. Yes. They will And, if so, they'll And those are the two primary That's the National Voter The National Voter Registration Act of 1993 required Are there rules -- are there laws within the NVRA or EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 311 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 A Yes. The NVRA requires that states have in place a 2 general program making reasonable efforts to remove certain 3 categories of persons from the voter rolls. 4 are felons, mentally incapacitated folks, people who have 5 moved, and people who have died. 6 Q 7 do you get rid of somebody that has moved off the voter rolls? 8 A 9 registration certificate. Those categories So let's go -- start with the folks that have moved. How The NVRA process in Texas involves the Texas voter At the end of every odd-numbered 10 year, every single registered voter in Texas will get a voter 11 registration certificate that's a different color than the 12 cycle before. 13 if someone has moved from their address that they have on file 14 with the voter registrar that piece of mail will bounce back to 15 the voter registrar. 16 suspense and then we'll send a confirmation notice to the 17 voter. 18 like you've moved, you need to update your address or register 19 in the county where you've moved to. 20 piece of mail. 21 About 75 percent respond within the first 30 days, update their 22 address, and they go on being active voters. 23 25 percent go into long-term suspense and if they don't vote in 24 the next two federal elections then they'll be purged after the 25 second one. And that is a non-forwardable piece of mail. So The voter registrar will put the voter in A confirmation notice just says to the voter, it looks And that is a forwardable Most people respond to the confirmation notice. The remaining EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 312 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 Q Okay. So that's a lot of information. Let's break it 2 down a little bit. 3 -- you have received their voter registration card back in the 4 mail? 5 A Right. 6 Q The next step is you-all send a correspondence out to that 7 person? 8 A 9 voter to update their address. So, once you've identified someone that has The county will send a confirmation notice asking the 10 Q So, again, who mails the voter registration card out? 11 A The counties mail the voter registration cards. 12 Q And the counties receive the voter registration cards 13 back, correct? 14 A That's right. 15 Q And the counties are then obligated under law to try and 16 attempt to resolve the status of that voter, correct? 17 A That's right. 18 Q Now, there's two types of counties in our state; there's 19 online and offline. 20 A 21 There's 215 of them. 22 registration database, known as TEAM, in real time. 23 whenever they add a voter or cancel a voter or change a voter's 24 information, that goes into the database immediately. 25 online with the system. What's an online county? Online counties are usually smaller in population. And they deal with the Texas voter And so They're The remaining 39 counties in Texas are EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 313 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 offline. 2 Q What's that? 3 A They've got their own voter registration system, 4 proprietary, sold to them by a vendor. 5 they input their information into their system and their system 6 batch processes with the statewide system overnight. 7 Q 8 that was one of those other items. 9 A That's right. 10 Q So when -- how do you find out that a voter has died? 11 A There are several ways. 12 registrar has personal knowledge that a voter is deceased, they 13 can remove that voter from the roll. 14 death reports to the county that a voter has passed away, they 15 can remove that voter. 16 the state send their information to the Bureau of Vital 17 Statistics and we get an update from BVS once a week, once 18 every 10 days, and then we will take that information from the 19 Bureau of Vital Statistics. 20 three things I guess. 21 will cancel that person for the online counties. 22 that we get from the Bureau of Vital Statistics has a first 23 name, last name, date of birth, full nine of the social match, 24 they're cancelled by the state. 25 voter that the state actually cancels right away. And what they do is So now let's turn our attention to deaths, because I think And the law says that if a voter If the local registrar of The local registrars of death across And we do two things with it -- Number one, if it's a strong match, we So if someone That's the only category of EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC And then, if 314 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 it's anything less than that, if they match on any number of 2 items less than first name, last name, date of birth, and full 3 nine of the social, they're sent to the counties for further 4 investigation and then cancellation. 5 Q 6 further investigation? 7 A 8 send a notice to the voter that says we've received 9 information, you know, in the course of matching, that makes it So what does the county do when they get notice for Well, in the past what they would do is just immediately 10 appear that you're deceased. If we don't hear from you in the 11 next 30 days we're going to cancel your voting record. 12 that's the way they used to investigate. 13 the last legislative session requires that counties do 14 something else between receiving the weak match from us and 15 proceeding to the confirmation notice. 16 Q What's that? 17 A The legislation just says they've got a duty to 18 investigate. 19 someone up on to see if they can get more bits of information 20 associated with the voter to make a determination as to whether 21 or not the two persons are the same. 22 Q 23 folks who were felons and -- 24 A 25 little different. And so House Bill 3593 in Quite a few counties use public data to look So the next group of people I think you've identified were Well, if I could. For offline counties, the process is a EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 315 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 Q Oh, okay. 2 A And it's important to know that the offline counties, 3 there are only 39 of them out of the 254. 4 13.5 million registered voters in Texas, about 10 million live 5 in offline counties. 6 offline counties, but most of the counties are online with the 7 system. But out of our So most of the voters in Texas are in 8 For offline counties, the process is a little different. 9 For strong match deceased, since we don't have the ability to 10 interact directly with their proprietary voter registration 11 system, we will send them a task for them to work. 12 task is a Code 99, which is for them to cancel the voter's 13 record. 14 actually do it or have a mechanism in place with their voter 15 registration system to do it automatically. 16 also send them the weak matches, same as we do the online 17 counties. 18 Q 19 least with strong deaths, is done by offline counties, correct? 20 A Right. 21 Q And for online counties, that is administered through the 22 state; your office, correct? 23 A That's right. 24 Q Okay. 25 are felons. And the It's a nondiscretionary thing, but they still have to And then we will So the administration of the database information, at So now let's turn our attention over to folks that How does the Secretary of State's office get EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 316 1 notified that someone is now a felon? 2 A 3 regarding felony convictions in the state. 4 separate those by county and send them to the counties to work. 5 All felons are treated as weak matches. 6 match for a felony. 7 Q 8 with the same way as a weak match for a death, correct? 9 A That's right. 10 Q The job, the task, of figuring out whether that person 11 should be removed or not is given to the individual county to 12 go through and process, correct? 13 A 14 voter if they are, in fact, a convicted felon. 15 Q 16 all have to identify? 17 A 18 incapacitated. 19 Q 20 that someone has developed a mental incapacitation that would 21 prevent them from writing -- to vote? 22 A 23 mental incapacity, will give that information to their local 24 voter registrar in the same county. 25 Q We get a file from DPS, I believe daily or close to that, And we will There is no strong And so a weak match, as you just talked about, is dealt They have to -- The individual county has to investigate and cancel the And what was the last group of folks within NVRA that you- We've got folks that move, deceased, mentally I think it was mentally incapacitated. How do you learn The probate courts, when there is a determination of Okay. So the information for the offline counties, is it EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 317 1 dealt with the same for all these categories of people; that 2 is, you provide to the offline counties notice of this 3 information, for instance, a felony? 4 A Right. 5 Q We've talked about Ms. Cargill, who is on death row, and 6 she has been on it since 2010, and she is still on the voter 7 rolls. 8 A I didn't. 9 Q Smith County. 10 A Interesting. 11 Did you know that? What county is that? (Laughter) 12 Q If you -- let's use her as an example. If you were to 13 send an email out after we leave here today letting them know 14 that her name has come up and it appears she is still on the 15 voter rolls, what is the process Smith County over in Tyler -- 16 somebody in Tyler supposed to do with her? 17 A 18 to the last mailing address in the voter registration system 19 for that voter saying it appears that you have been convicted 20 of a felony and your record is going to be cancelled in 30 days 21 if we don't hear from you. 22 Q 23 that Smith County does that? 24 A We don't have one. 25 Q So they may be mandated to do it, but have you ever seen What Smith County would do is send a confirmation notice What is the stick by which your office has to make sure EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 318 1 instances where counties simply don't get it done, -- 2 A Yes. 3 Q -- for whatever reason. 4 whatever. 5 A Certainly. 6 Q Tell us a little bit about those. 7 A Well, we found out in 2012 that -- in 2012, the mass mail- 8 out of voter registration certificates that was supposed to go 9 out at the end of 2011 was delayed because of the redistricting They may not have the resources; 10 litigation. So the court Order in that redistricting 11 litigation from the San Antonio court required that the mass 12 mail-out go April 24th of 2012. 13 thereafter that we started getting calls from a lot of persons 14 in Travis County who were very concerned because deceased 15 relatives of theirs had received a voter registration 16 certificate. 17 Travis County, that they had not cancelled any of the strong 18 matched deceased that we had sent to them since TEAM has been 19 in place in 2007. 20 they hadn't actually cancelled any strong matched deceased in 21 Travis County. 22 didn't know what a Code 99 was, so they didn't understand the 23 tasks that had been sent to them. 24 Q 25 many dead people may or may not be on the system? Well, it was very soon And it turned out, on an investigation with So they had a five year period there where And the explanation for that was that they Well, do you know of any kind of information about how EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 319 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 A I don't. The last investigation in that regard that I did 2 was in connection with the 2012 preclearance litigation. 3 the Department of Public Safety looked at our voter rolls and 4 they were of the opinion that we had 50,000 deceased persons on 5 the voter rolls. 6 Q What is HAVA? 7 A HAVA is the Help America Vote Act of 2002. 8 Q What does it -- what impact, if any, does it have on your 9 job as Director of Elections for the State of Texas? Well, HAVA had a couple of main components. And 10 A The first 11 thing that HAVA did was address the voting equipment that 12 states use for elections. 13 election in Florida in 2000, so it explicitly prohibited punch 14 card ballots going forward. 15 polling place in a federal election have a disabled accessible 16 voting unit available for voting. 17 besides affect voting equipment in the polling place was 18 require that states have a statewide electronic voter 19 registration database for counties or other voter registrars to 20 use to keep track of voters. 21 Q 22 database that you-all are using? 23 A TEAM was brought online in 2007. 24 Q What's its end of life estimated by you to be? 25 A Its end of life was the end of 2013. It was a result of the hanging chad And it required that every single The other thing that it did Well, from the standpoint of TEAM, how old is the TEAM EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 320 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 Q And when something like TEAM reaches its end of life what 2 happens; -- 3 A You replace it. 4 Q -- why isn't it dead? 5 A You replace it as soon as you can, -- 6 Q And are you-all -- 7 A -- resources permitting. 8 Q -- in the process of doing that? 9 A We are. We let out a request for offer at the end of -- 10 in October of 2013. 11 called PCC Technology Group in July of this year to redevelop 12 TEAM. 13 Q 14 be before that's developed and implemented? 15 A 16 redeveloped TEAM to be in place before the constitutional 17 amendment election in 2015. 18 the new system to be on board. 19 new system in a presidential primary. 20 We entered into a contract with a group And so what's the -- how long of a process is it going to We have a fairly aggressive timeline. We want the So, by November of 2015, we want We don't want to beta test a (Pause) 21 Q I'd like to visit with you a little bit about SB 14. 22 you know what SB 14 is? 23 A 24 regarding photo ID. 25 Q Yes. Do It's the bill passed in the 82nd Legislature What role, with regard to the implementation of SB 14, has EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 321 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 the Secretary of State's office, and specifically yourself, 2 had? 3 A 4 legislature, and with regard to something as -- I don't want to 5 say as -- as multi-faceted a change as SB 14 was, it requires a 6 multi-faceted, multi-layered response on our part to implement 7 it. 8 the law requires; then we have to come up with forms to 9 implement what the law requires, that the -- the poll workers Well, our role is to implement laws passed by the And, so, we -- we've -- we have to first determine what 10 would use in the polling place and the voter registrar would 11 use in the office during the cure period, and then we have to 12 determine what exactly they meant when they came up with the 13 63.0101 list of six I.D.'s plus an EIC, and then we have to 14 communicate all of this information to the county election 15 officials so that they can train their poll workers. 16 came up with training materials and -- and all that -- forms, 17 all of that stuff. 18 to actually reach out to the public to make sure that they know 19 what's expected of them and that it is different than it was 20 before and -- and make sure that they're prepared when they go 21 to the polls. 22 Q 23 With regard to communicating to the counties and all of the 24 poll workers -- first of all, how many poll workers are there 25 in the state? So, we And, then, there is another layer. We have Well, let's break that down a little bit if we could. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 322 1 A Um -- 2 Q Let's say the upcoming election in November of 2014. 3 many poll workers would we talking about in the state of Texas? 4 A 5 more than 8,000 polling places, and we would expect there to be 6 more than 25,000 poll workers working that day. 7 Q 8 educate the people who are going to be implementing the 9 elections in this state? How We would expect for the November election for there to be And whose -- is there -- do you have a responsibility to 10 A We have an obligation to educate the counties and to make 11 education materials available to the counties for them to 12 educate the poll workers. 13 Q When does that start? 14 A It started in June of 2013. 15 Q So, you've been doing training of the different counties 16 to help facilitate the training of those 25,000 employees since 17 when? 18 A 19 workers, this crop of poll workers, is going to begin training 20 this week and next week. 21 is starting now. 22 Q 23 training materials for those folks? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And have you, I guess, identified the teachers for those Since June of 2013. This -- this crop of election The training for this election is -- And will you be training -- well, have you prepared EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 323 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 courses? 2 A 3 for when the classes are going to be and -- SB 14 did something 4 unique with regard to poll worker training that hadn't been 5 done before. 6 polling place was required to undergo training by the counties 7 for the election. 8 the information to the other poll workers in -- in the polling 9 unit. We don't. The counties do that, and they set the schedule Before SB 14, only the election judge in a The judge was then expected to communicate SB 14 requires that all poll workers go -- undergo 10 training with regard to photo I.D. requirements. 11 have developed sort of two modules for poll worker training. 12 We've got photo I.D. only, which includes the list of 13 acceptable I.D.'s, their pictures, different variations that 14 occur, and then we also have integrated into that 15 substantially-similar-name training. 16 all election workers, get trained with regard to photo I.D., 17 they get acceptable I.D. education as well as similar-name 18 education. 19 And, so, we So, when poll workers, The judges, who get the full course of poll worker 20 training, get that module as well, but they also get stuff 21 about setting up the polling place, what happens with voting 22 equipment when it malfunctions, who to call, how to close down 23 a polling place at the end of the day, and the -- the 24 procedures for that. 25 I.D. training. So -- so, they don't just get the photo EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 324 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 Q So, part and parcel of SB 14 was an identification -- 2 well, photo I.D. requirement. 3 certain photographic I.D. that were supposed to be acceptable. 4 How did you go about implementing or conveying the message to 5 the poll workers, or the judges who would convey it then to the 6 poll workers, which types of photo I.D. were acceptable? 7 A 8 chief election officer for the state, is to interpret and 9 implement what the legislature says. Right. You were given by statute Our -- our obligation in connection with being the And, so, they changed 10 63.0101 of the code, which had a previous list of acceptable 11 forms of I.D. at the polling place, and they changed that list. 12 And the list now is -- has got six categories plus an election 13 identification certificate. 14 applied common sense, you know. 15 driver's license; a personal I.D. card is a personal I.D. card; 16 an EIC is what it is; a passport is what it is. 17 something called a "passport card" that people can use for land 18 entry into Canada and Mexico or to go to the Caribbean. 19 so, we determined that a passport card was an acceptable form 20 of passport for voting. 21 And, so, we took that list and A driver's license is a But there is And, And, then, there is a certificate of citizenship is 22 on the list, the new 63.0101 list, and it turns out that 23 certificate of citizenship is something that the Department of 24 Immigration Naturalization, whatever it is, that the federal 25 government has as a specific thing. So, when you say EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 325 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 "certificate of citizenship," that is a thing. 2 the thing that the drafters of SB 14 meant. 3 drafters, and what they meant was, they meant the piece of 4 paper that you get when you become a citizen. 5 have said "naturalization certificate." 6 certificate is a lot more common than a citizenship 7 certificate. 8 forms of I.D. because we're trying to implement the will of the 9 legislature. 10 But it's not We talked to the So, they should A naturalization So, we include both of those things in acceptable And, then, the other big category is military I.D. 11 When you talk to the Department of Defense about military I.D., 12 they have a wide variety of items that -- that they issue or 13 that related agencies issue to military persons. 14 goal with regard to implementing this law was to make the list 15 as expansive as possible so that no one is disenfranchised. 16 And, so, we took every single form of military I.D. that there 17 is: 18 civilian retiree card; uniformed military services I.D., which 19 they've got four different versions of that, that are different 20 colors for -- for different purposes; as well as the V.A., 21 Veterans Affairs, card. 22 voters as possible would be encompassed in the list of 23 acceptable forms of I.D. 24 Q 25 I mean, that's the one that you could -- if I'm born -- let's And, so, our the CAC card; the DOD contractor CAC card; the DOD We wanted to make sure that as many Let's talk briefly about the certificate of citizenship. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 326 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 say I'm born in Canada or I'm born in Mexico or any other 2 foreign land, but my parents are both United States citizens. 3 In order to effectuate proving that I am, in fact, a U.S. 4 citizen, I can obtain from the Department of State, or whoever 5 issues it, Immigration, a certificate of citizenship, and it 6 will have my picture, correct? 7 A That's right. 8 Q And it may be my picture as a baby if somebody gets a hold 9 of one of those as a baby, correct? 10 A That's right. And -- 11 Q Well -- well -- 12 A And I -- it's my understanding that children who are 13 adopted from overseas also get citizenship certificate. 14 yeah, it's our understanding from certificate of citizenship 15 that the photos on there would not be very useful for 16 determining the identity of a voter. 17 Q Are you aware of a New York Inspector General's report? 18 A Um -- 19 Q On voter fraud? 20 A I am. 21 of last year, I believe. 22 Q Well, why would you have reviewed such a thing? 23 A That kind of thing is of -- of strong interest to election 24 directors across the country. 25 election directors in New York, and so I called him I remember when that came out. So, That was at the end I happen to know one of the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 327 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 immediately. 2 Q 3 play, I guess, from the standpoint of implementing elections in 4 Texas? 5 A And what was it about that interchange that goes into Well, what stuck out to me in that report -- 6 MS. WESTFALL: 7 MR. SCOTT: Objection. Hearsay. Well, I'm not offering it for the truth 8 of the matter asserted, simply asking what -- from his 9 standpoint of implementing SB 14. 10 THE COURT: 11 THE WITNESS: Overruled. What stuck out to me from that report 12 is that the -- the attempt to impersonate ineligible voters was 13 successful 61 out of 63 times. 14 impression. 15 BY MR. SCOTT: 16 Q 17 the implementation of SB 14? 18 A And that -- that made an So, why is it -- what relevance does that have, though, to Well, it -- 19 MS. WESTFALL: 20 THE COURT: 21 THE WITNESS: Objection. Relevance. Hearsay. Overruled. It has always been my contention that, 22 in the absence of a photo I.D. requirement, that someone can 23 come to vote with a certificate, a voter registration 24 certificate, and say that they're the person on that 25 certificate and vote with it, and that the only way that it EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 328 1 would get caught is if the person who's behind the table knows 2 either the name on the voter certificate or knows the person 3 standing in front of the table and knows they're not the same 4 person. 5 would not be caught. 6 report that said 61 out of 63 attempts were successful, that 7 confirmed my belief that voter impersonation fraud is very 8 difficult to catch absent a photo I.D. requirement. 9 BY MR. SCOTT: So, absent serendipity, voter impersonation fraud And when I saw the inspector general's 10 Q 11 guess, back in June of 2013 with the Shelby County case; is 12 that correct? 13 A That's right. 14 Q Tell me what happened. 15 about getting -- well, that's too broad. 16 little closer question. 17 So, you found out that SB 14 was being implemented, I How did you -- how did you go Let me ask you a So, what were the steps you undertook at that time to 18 implement SB 14? 19 A 20 County decision was going to -- was in the hopper and was 21 coming and that it could lead to the implementation of photo 22 I.D., so we had taken the forms and the rules that we had 23 worked on during 2011 and sort of gave those a fresh look, had 24 them ready to go, had material for our website ready, so that 25 we could begin the process right away of -- of implementing Well, you know, we had -- we had some idea that the Shelby EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 329 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 photo I.D. Interestingly, on June 25th, 2013, several local 2 entities were in the middle of early voting for runoffs, and so 3 we got a lot of panicked calls from cities and water districts 4 across the state because they just received word from the 5 Attorney General that photo I.D. was effective immediately. 6 And my response to them was: 7 immediately as soon as you finish the election you're in right 8 now; you know, that -- that kind of immediate. 9 25th of 2013, we have been in the process, basically, of trying I think he meant effective And since June 10 to build the plane and fly it at the same time. 11 Q 12 election I.D. mobile units. 13 A Right. 14 Q There has been some testimony developed yesterday -- you 15 were in the courtroom it looked like when Mr. Rodriguez was 16 testifying from the Department of Public Safety. 17 A Sure. 18 Q With regard to the implementation of the mobile EIC units, 19 what role, if any, did the Secretary of State's office play? 20 A 21 talked to other election directors across the country who 22 had -- who were either in the middle of undergoing the process 23 of implementing photo I.D. or who had done it, so I talked to 24 the election directors in Indiana, I talked to Alabama and 25 Georgia, and I talked to both the election director and the Well, I guess part of that process has been the rollout of Were you? Well, in the lead-up to the Shelby County decision, I EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 330 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 Secretary of State in Tennessee, Tre Hargett, about what they 2 had done. 3 states have done was making the opportunity for free voting 4 I.D. to be available mobilely, remotely across the state. 5 so, we investigated with the Department of Public Safety as to 6 whether or not that was a possible thing to do in Texas, and 7 that we would help in any way possible to make that happen. 8 Q 9 Secretary of State's budget to purchase 25 of those machines, And a recurring theme that a lot of these other And, And part of that process was extending funds out of the 10 correct? 11 A That's right. 12 MS. WESTFALL: 13 THE COURT: Objection. Leading. Sustained. 14 BY MR. SCOTT: 15 Q 16 of State do to implement this idea of executing these EIC 17 mobile units? 18 A 19 helpful, so we bought -- we wanted to know what equipment we 20 needed to buy to make this possible, and we got the list from 21 the Department of Public Safety, and we actually purchased the 22 equipment. 23 contacts with the counties and their elections officials, to 24 see about where to put the election identification certificate 25 mobile units in those counties. And, so, after -- so, what role, if any, did the Secretary Well, since it was sort of our idea, we wanted to be We also interfaced with the counties, since we have EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 331 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 Q Well, what kind of information did you receive from the 2 standpoint -- from the counties as far as why certain locations 3 might be better than others? 4 A 5 make that determination. 6 match -- a no-match list against I.D.'s, so we have a driver's 7 license database that we use to constitute the jury will. 8 matched our voter registration list against that in July of 9 2013 so that we could get a list by zip code of the non- Well, there were -- there were two things that we used to Number one, we did a list -- a We 10 matches. And one aspect of the mobile EIC campaign was to send 11 the mobile EICs in the vicinity of zip codes that had a higher 12 number of non-matches than other zip codes. 13 component of the mobile EIC campaign was to take care of those 14 big swathes of country out in Southwest Texas that -- that are 15 just huge to make sure that the rural areas had a closer access 16 to an EIC if they needed one rather than driving to their 17 closest DPS office. 18 Q 19 locate the places? 20 A That's right. 21 Q And when you found the places, did you help the staff -- 22 or what did you all do next after you identified those 23 locations? 24 A 25 actually getting the units to the place fell completely to the The other So, you used whatever resources you could to try and For the fall campaign, the staffing and the logistics of EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 332 1 Department of Public Safety. So, the way it worked is we would 2 talk to the county, the county would get back to us with some 3 locations, we would give those locations to the Department of 4 Public Safety, the Department of Public Safety would make a 5 determination as to whether or not those locations were 6 adequate, and if they were, then the Department of Public 7 Safety would take the mobile EIC unit to the location on the 8 day specified. 9 primary, we did it a little differently. In the -- in the spring leading up to the March We -- we went more to 10 an invitation model, so we didn't have as many units out, but 11 we went where we were asked to come, and we had Secretary of 12 State staff that were trained to assist with the issuance of 13 EIC so that a DPS person would bring the unit to the locations 14 and a Secretary of State person would meet them there, and the 15 two would man the unit during the period. 16 we're doing this fall as well. 17 Q 18 to it as far as the activity? 19 A Sure. 20 Q What is that? 21 A Well, we ratchet up prior to elections. 22 Q Why is that? 23 A Because people have voter registration and election 24 identification certificates on their mind at that point. 25 Q That process is what So, when does the -- does the program have a ebb and flow Will they -- so, what are the operating hours that you EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 333 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 will be running those 25 units from the Secretary of State's 2 office? 3 A 4 process. 5 11th that have actually gone green; the DPS has approved them. 6 And, so, there are some very -- various stages. 7 locations are from something like September 23rd through 8 October 15th right now. 9 to 101 counties last week asking them to invite us, basically, Right now we've got, I think, 18 locations that are in the I think we've got a couple of those October 10th and We -- those We're going to -- we've sent an e-mail 10 and so we expect for those -- that number of locations to grow. 11 Q So, when does early voting start? 12 A Early voting starts October 20th. 13 Q And when does it end? 14 A It will end the Friday before election day. 15 Q How much money did the DP -- I mean did SOS expend in 16 advertising election I.D. certificates and the change in the 17 SB 14 law before the November, 2013, election? 18 A 19 numbered year was a blessing and a curse. 20 because it's a low-turnout election; you have the opportunity 21 to -- to try in real time poll worker training, see how it 22 goes. 23 used to educate voters for a non-federal election. 24 couldn't use HAVA money for that. 25 our agency's budget and we funded an education campaign for Well, it -- having photo I.D. go into effect in an oddIt was a blessing The curse was that Help America Vote Act money cannot be So, we So, we took $400,000 out of EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 334 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 part of September, October, into the November, 2013, election. 2 Q 3 attempting to get the word out to the different counties about 4 changes like SB 14? 5 A 6 primary vehicle for interacting with the counties. 7 three-day seminar that we do every July, and we've had two of 8 those since SB 14. 9 almost completely around SB 14 and the changes that would be How does the Secretary of State's office go about We have a county election official seminar that is our It's a So, the July, 2013, conference was geared 10 required. This conference that we just had in 2014 had a 11 little bit of SB 14 in it, but it was mainly in the nature of 12 these are some of the recurring issues that have come up; this 13 is what you need to address with your poll workers. 14 much less of a all-encompassing thing this July. 15 Q 16 spent on the implementation of SB 14? 17 A Um -- 18 Q To date? 19 A I'm not sure exactly. 20 or we will spend $2 million by the -- by the November election. 21 We spent 400,000 of our money last year, and we spent probably 22 $100,000 on equipment and personnel for EIC units. 23 Q What's HAVA money? 24 A When the Help America Vote Act of 2002 was passed, the 25 federal government gave states money to buy voting equipment So, it was Do you know how much money Secretary of State's office has We've spent $2 million this year, I mean, what's that reference? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 335 Ingram - Direct / By Mr. Scott 1 and to purchase a voter registration database or build one, and 2 that -- that's what I'm talking about. 3 we -- we had to tell the Election Assistance Commission how we 4 were going to spend the money, so we had to divide it up into 5 strategies, and then we've got some percentage wiggle room 6 within those strategies, but basically we had to commit to the 7 EAC that this is -- these are the areas we're going to spend 8 this money on, in order to get the money from the federal 9 government. Whenever we -- whenever 10 Q So, in the November election, as it compared -- November, 11 2013 -- how did that compare to the November -- the last 12 similar type of election, I guess another constitutional 13 election? 14 A Well, the -- 15 Q On voter turnout. 16 A Yeah; the voter turnout was up quite a bit, not quite 17 double, and the process was very smooth. 18 have -- we have a war room, so the attorneys in my office and 19 some other folks will get together in a conference room with 20 computers and phones, and we answer phones on election day; 21 calls from the public, calls from county election officials. 22 And the November, 2013, war room was very quiet. 23 had as many calls about candidate filing as we had about the 24 election that day, so as far as we could tell from our vantage 25 point, the election was very smooth, even though the turnout On election day we EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC We probably 336 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 was up substantially over the 2011 turnout. 2 MR. SCOTT: I thank you for your time. 4 THE COURT: Shall we take a break? 5 MS. WESTFALL: 6 THE COURT: 7 COURTROOM ATTENDANT: 3 witness. 8 9 Thank you. Fifteen-minute break. All rise. (A recess was taken from 3:55 p.m. to 4:13 p.m.; parties present) 10 THE COURT: 11 MS. WESTFALL: 12 Pass the States. 13 Have a seat. Elizabeth Westfall for the United May I approach the witness? THE COURT: Yes. 14 CROSS EXAMINATION 15 BY MS. WESTFALL: 16 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Ingram. 17 A Good afternoon. 18 Q I'm Elizabeth Westfall. 19 A Good to see you. 20 Q I've handed you your deposition transcript from 2014 and 21 your trial testimony from 2012 from the Texas v. Holder case. 22 It's good to see you again. So let's talk a little about early voting by mail in 23 Texas. The photo ID requirements of Senate Bill 14 don't apply 24 to early voting by mail, correct? 25 A For the most part. There is an exception. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 337 1 Q But early voting by mail -- and early voting by mail is 2 not the same as voting in person, right? 3 A That's true. 4 Q And, in Texas, every voter has a right to vote in person, 5 correct? 6 A Certainly. 7 Q And the exception you're talking about to photo ID 8 requirements concerning early voting by mail, is that for HAVA 9 voters who sometimes need to send in their photo ID; is that 10 correct? 11 A 12 "first-time voter rule," if they register to vote and they 13 don't provide a form of identification, either a driver's 14 license number or a social security number, they flunk live 15 check, and they are what we call an "ID voter," and they have 16 to provide ID, even if they vote by mail. 17 Q 18 ballot by mail; isn't that right? 19 A That's true. 20 Q Voters who are 65 age -- 65 years of age or older on 21 election day are eligible to vote by mail; is that right? 22 A They are. 23 Q And voters with certain physical conditions or illnesses 24 are eligible to vote by mail, right? 25 A That is correct. And if they're -- what we call the Only certain classes of voters are eligible to cast a You have to have a reason to vote by mail. That's one of the categories. I wouldn't agree with that. The term is "disabled," and EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 338 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 the voter gets to determine whether they're disabled or not. 2 So the voter can just check the box that they're disabled and 3 the voter -- election clerk takes their word for it. 4 Q 5 election day or during early voting; is that right? 6 A That's one of the categories. 7 Q And certain voters who are detained in jail are eligible 8 to vote by mail; is that right? 9 A They can. 10 Q And no other voters are eligible to cast a ballot early by 11 mail; is that right? 12 A 13 absentee ballots for a late-arising disability or a death in 14 the family. 15 by mail that aren't quite, but are remote voting. 16 Q 17 right? 18 A 19 -- they have to make an application for a ballot, and then 20 they've got to fill the ballot out, and return it. 21 Q 22 for a mail -- early voting by mail application in person -- 23 A No, no. 24 Q -- is that right? 25 A You can request them in person. And voters who expect to be absent from the county on That's right. Yes, ma'am. There are some other special categories of So there's some other things that are like voting To vote early by mail, a voter must take several steps, Well, I guess you could put it that way. They have to ask And the voter cannot submit the request for an absentee -- You can -- You -- EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 339 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 Q Can you -- you can't request them online, can you? 2 A Online, you can fill out the form, and print it, and mail 3 it in. 4 well. 5 Q 6 early mail ballot by phone; is that right? 7 A That's true. 8 Q And a voter cannot apply for -- 9 A I mean, I say it's true. But you can take the form to the early voting clerk as Unlike other states, voters in Texas cannot request an I don't know about other states. 10 I know in Texas you can't request a ballot by mail by phone. 11 Q 12 election, right? 13 A 14 ballot by mail for that election, then you're correct. 15 have to wait until within 60 days before the election. 16 Thank you. A voter can't apply prior to 60 days before an No, that's not true. If all they're asking for is the They However, persons who are over the age of 65 or 17 disabled, can -- they can send one application in in January 18 and get all the ballots to which they're entitled for the whole 19 year. 20 And so there have been quite a few folks who have 21 applied for an annual application for ballot by mail this 22 summer that didn't have to wait until the 60-day cutoff. 23 Q 24 before the election, right -- unless hand-delivering it to the 25 clerk after that time; is that correct? And the voter must submit the application by the ninth day EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 340 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 A Well, no. They have to do it by the ninth day, whether 2 it's in person or by mail. 3 weekend, it rotates back to the Friday before. 4 election is on Tuesday, the actual cutoff for the application 5 for ballot by mail is 11 days, and that is both in person and 6 received by the mail. 7 Q And that deadline is much -- 8 A Unless it's one of these special categories we talked 9 about before, where you have a late-arising disability or a And if that ninth day falls on a So when the 10 death in the family. 11 Q 12 than what is required in many other states; is that right? 13 A 14 Texas before this last legislative session was that you could 15 apply for a ballot by mail as late as seven days before the 16 election. 17 result of our omnibus bill, and the reason for that change was 18 because the post office -- we have obviously a working 19 relationship with the post office -- is making changes with 20 regard to the consolidation of their central processing units 21 and cutting the number, and they had told us that what their 22 changes were going to do to the process of first-class mail was 23 that add at least one day and possibly two days to each leg of 24 a trip. 25 Thank you. That deadline of nine days is much earlier Again, I don't know what other states require. The law in That was changed in the legislative session as a And so we did not want voters in Texas to have the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 341 1 impression that they could apply for a ballot by mail on the 2 seventh day before an election and have a realistic shot of 3 getting that in by election day. 4 back so that -- so that our deadline was realistic and would 5 accommodate the voter's actual intent to vote. 6 Q 7 week to process a request and mail the absentee ballot; is that 8 right? 9 A I think so. 10 Q Once the voter receives the ballot, the voter must mail it 11 so it will be received by the clerk on election day; is that 12 correct? 13 A 14 carriers. 15 it by FedEx. 16 Q 17 election day; is that right? 18 A That's right. 19 Q Isn't it true that voters who are eligible for mail-in 20 ballots have applied for EICs? 21 A I don't know. 22 Q Are you aware that, as of May 2014, the number of EICs 23 issued was 266? 24 A I don't know the numbers of EIC applicants. 25 Q Are you -- So we wanted to rotate that And once the clerk receives the request, the clerk has a Yes, ma'am. They can return it either by mail or common or contract So if they're close to the deadline, they can return Which means the voter must mail the ballot in advance of EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 342 1 A That's a DPS question. 2 Q Are you aware that 62 issuances of EICs were to voters 3 over the age of 65? 4 A 5 to DPS about that. 6 Q 7 over the age of 65 who want to vote in person, but don't 8 otherwise have Senate Bill 14 ID and go to the effort of trying 9 to get an EIC? I'm not aware of the EIC issuance. You would have to talk And doesn't that show, if it's true, that there are people 10 A I don't know if it shows that or if they just want to have 11 the card. 12 voters what their intention was. 13 Q 14 correct? 15 A That's right. 16 Q Before Senate Bill 14, Texas had a system of verifying 17 voters' identity at the polls, correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Election officials provided to each and every voter free 20 of charge a voter registration certificate, which was mailed to 21 each voter's residence if they successfully applied to register 22 to vote; is that right? 23 A That's right. 24 Q And to receive a voter registration certificate, an 25 applicant only had to complete a voter registration I don't know what it shows. You'd have to ask the An EIC card can't be used for anything other than voting, EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 343 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 application. No additional documentation was required; is that 2 right? 3 A 4 application. 5 receive a notice of incomplete and would have to submit 6 additional information. 7 Q 8 present their voter registration certificate at the polls; is 9 that correct? Yes, they had to fill out completely a voter registration If it was incomplete in any way, then they would And under the law prior to Senate Bill 14, voters could 10 A That's right. 11 Q And voters using that method of identity could cast a 12 regular ballot even if at -- strike that. 13 Voters could still cast a regular ballot even if they 14 didn't have their registration certificate as long as they 15 executed an affidavit and presented one of numerous forms of 16 photo and nonphoto ID; is that right? 17 A 18 value judgment. 19 IDs that they could -- they would have to sign an affidavit on 20 the combo form that they've lost their certificate, and then 21 they would have to present an alternate form of ID in the 22 previous version of 63.0101. 23 Q 24 correct? 25 A I don't know about "numerous." I don't know. That's a There were -- there was a list of acceptable And that included numerous forms of nonphoto ID; is that I don't know about "numerous." That's a value judgment EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 344 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 that I'm not prepared to give. 2 Q But it was a number, wasn't it? 3 A There was -- 4 Q Several -- 5 A -- a number. 6 have been -- I don't have the old list with me, but there might 7 have been nine categories on it instead of the current six. 8 Q 9 statement, a government check, a paycheck, or other form of 10 government document showing the name and the address of the 11 voter? 12 A 13 actual word was "pay stub," but yes. 14 Q 15 in similar form for over a decade before Senate Bill 14 was 16 enacted; is that right? 17 A 18 for a while. 19 Q Was it in place since around 1997; is that right? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q Now, I want to turn to the disability exemption under 22 Senate Bill 14. 23 be exempted from the photo requirements; is that right? 24 A Correct. 25 Q But this is really a meaningless exemption, isn't it? There was a number. I think there might Did it include a copy of a current utility bill, a bank Yes. I'm trying to think about paycheck. I think the And Texas's prior voter identification law was in effect I don't know how long it was in place. It was in place I could check. SB 14 allows some voters with a disability to EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 345 1 A Again, I'm not going to agree with your value judgments. 2 No, ma'am. 3 Q 4 Senate Bill 14 does not apply to all voters with disabilities, 5 correct? 6 A 7 I know that to achieve a disability exemption on your voter 8 registration certificate, you have to demonstrate to the voter 9 registrar that you are disabled. So let's talk about it. That's true. 10 The disability exemption of I don't know exactly what you're getting at. For the Social Security Administration disability, 11 any level of disability percentage is sufficient to get the 12 exemption. 13 Administration, you have to be 50 percent disabled. 14 If you're getting it from the Veterans So in addition to showing disability from Social 15 Security Administration and the Veterans -- or the Veterans 16 Administration, you also have to swear that you don't have 17 another acceptable form of ID. 18 So that's how you get the disability exemption. 19 THE COURT: 20 And on the mail-in ballots, it's just they themselves can just say they're disabled and that's it? 21 THE WITNESS: That's right. 22 BY MS. WESTFALL: 23 Q 24 what you just described, is significantly narrower than the 25 version of the bill in the Senate as passed; is that right? The disability exemption in Senate Bill 14 as enacted, EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 A I haven't done a comparison. 2 narrower or not. 3 Q 4 in the Senate-passed version allowed voters with a 5 certification from a doctor to be exempted from Senate Bill 6 14's photo ID requirements? 7 A 8 Senate. 9 Q 346 I don't know if it's Do you recall that the version of the disability exemption I'm not familiar with that draft that came out of the Turning back to Senate Bill 14 as enacted, to be clear, if 10 a disabled voter goes to the polls on election days, the voter 11 can't be exempted from Senate Bill 14's ID requirements then 12 and there, correct? 13 A Repeat that question. 14 Q Sure. 15 day, the voter can't become exempted from Senate Bill 14 there 16 at the polls, correct? 17 A 18 goes to the polls without an acceptable form of identification 19 and wants to claim a disability exemption in the polling place, 20 then you're correct. 21 Q And, in fact -- 22 A They can do it -- 23 Q Go ahead. 24 A They can do it in the cure period, the six days following 25 the -- I'm sorry. If a disabled voter goes to the polls on election I'm not sure what you're asking. If a disabled person They cannot do that. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 347 1 Q Right. 2 A -- election. 3 Q In fact, even if the voter brought documents from the 4 Social Security Administration or the Department of Veterans 5 Affairs to the polls on election day, the voter could not get a 6 disability exemption, right? 7 A That's right. 8 Q That wouldn't be enough, right? 9 A Well, it would be enough. It would just be the wrong time 10 and place. 11 Q 12 day, correct? 13 A Or subsequent thereto in the cure period. 14 Q And you can't obtain the exemption at the polls on 15 election day, right? 16 A We've covered that. 17 Q Instead, a voter must submit a copy of the documents from 18 the Social Security Administration or the Department of 19 Veterans Affairs to his or her county clerk; is that correct? 20 A I believe it's the voter registrar -- 21 Q And -- 22 A -- which may be the county clerk, but often is the tax 23 assessor/collector. 24 they are people. 25 Q A disabled voter must obtain the exemption before election Thank you. Yes, ma'am. So I don't know want to quibble about, but And if the voter is already registered, he or EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 348 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 she must complete another form to obtain this exemption, right? 2 A 3 exemption. 4 fill out the bottom portion. 5 Q 6 documentation from a federal agency, the Social Security 7 Administration or the Department of Veteran Affairs, submitting 8 the -- submit the form to your county registrar and obtain the 9 exemption, the exemption is not permanent, right? That's right. We've created an application for disability It's a one-page application where the voter has to The top portion is instructional. And even if you go through the process of getting the 10 A 11 question. 12 independent of requesting a disability exemption. 13 through the process to become disabled according to the Social 14 Security Administration for a variety of reasons. 15 injured at work. 16 paperwork. 17 process to get paperwork for voting. 18 process because they've become disabled -- you know, injured in 19 combat for Veterans Affairs. 20 I want to talk to you about the first part of your The "go through the process" piece happens People go They get They go through -- so they have the That's not -- they don't have to go through the They've gone through that But, anyway, once they've got the paperwork, the 21 exemption is certainly permanent, yes -- as long as the voter 22 doesn't move to a different county. 23 Q 24 Texas, the voter must reapply for the disability exemption; is 25 that correct? But if a voter does move from one county to another in EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 349 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 A 2 county-based voter registration system in Texas, and the law 3 requires -- 13, I believe, 101 of the Election Code requires 4 that the voter registrar maintain with regard to their voters 5 the information on that voter during the pendency of the 6 voter's active registration and up to two years after they're 7 canceled. 8 9 Yes. They've moved to a different county -- we have a And so if a voter becomes -- gets the disability exemption in one county and moves to another county, then that 10 county that they move to doesn't have the paperwork, and 11 they've got a statutory obligation to maintain that paperwork. 12 So the voter would have to reapply for the disability 13 exemption, if they move. Yes, ma'am. 14 But they also have to re-register to vote. We don't 15 have voter registrations that transfer across counties either. 16 Q 17 not benefitted many Texans; isn't that right? 18 A I don't know about "many." 19 Q Data from the TEAM database produced in this case shows 20 that only 18 voters had obtained the exemption; is that right? 21 A I think it was 19. 22 Q But 18 or 19 is a small number, correct? 23 A Again, I don't know -- you insist on value judgments. 24 don't know if that's a small number or not. 25 been 19 people who needed it. As of January of this year, the disability exemption had I There might have So I'm not going to agree with EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 350 1 value judgments. 2 Q 3 ballot that isn't counted is not the same as voting a regular 4 ballot, right? 5 A No. 6 Q Because regular ballots are counted, right? 7 A Provisional ballots often are counted as well, but the 8 process of casting a provisional ballot is different than 9 casting a regular ballot. Let's turn to provisional ballots. Voting a provisional Yes, ma'am. 10 Q And it's true that many provisional ballots are, in fact, 11 not counted, correct? 12 A Many are not counted, and many are counted. 13 Q Senate Bill 14 requires that voters who appear without 14 necessary photo ID must cast a provisional ballot, correct? 15 A That's right. 16 Q And under Senate Bill 14, voters who cast a provisional 17 ballot have six days to cure their ballot, right? 18 A 19 after the election. 20 voting, then they've got substantially more than six days. 21 Q 22 voter either has to bring a copy of Senate Bill 14 ID to the 23 registrar or meet one of the exemptions under Senate Bill 14; 24 is that correct? 25 A No, ma'am. That is not correct. They have until six days If they vote on the first day of early And to cure the ballot and ensure it will be counted, a Right. We've also added to the Rule 81.71 to allow voters EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 351 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 to execute an affidavit that they're the same person if the 2 identity couldn't be verified from the document they provide. 3 Q 4 correct? 5 A 6 issue. 7 voter's identity from the identification provided. 8 the reasons that someone would be unable to vote a regular 9 ballot and would have to vote provisionally is if their picture 10 And that relates to the similar name issue; is that Well, it's more -- it's broader than the similar name 63.001(d) requires that the election clerk verify the So one of was a lot different than their appearance when they vote. 11 And, specifically, the reason that we added that to 12 Rule 81.71 was for the transgender population, to make sure 13 that they had an opportunity to cast a ballot just by signing 14 an affidavit. 15 registrar during the cure period, but they can do that. 16 Q 17 provisional ballots won't count unless you show a Senate Bill 18 -- an SB 14 compliant ID during the cure period, there are two 19 exceptions, correct, to that rule? 20 A I think I just mentioned a third. 21 Q And putting aside that exception, there are two 22 exceptions, right? 23 A 24 one administrative exception. 25 religious exemption and disaster. They have to sign an affidavit at the voter So getting back to the exceptions to the general rule that Well, there's two statutory exceptions, and then there's The two statutory exceptions are EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 352 1 Q And the religious exemption is if a voter executes an 2 affidavit indicating that she has a consistently held religious 3 objection to being photographed, correct? 4 A Right, or he. 5 Q And the second exception is if a voter executes an 6 affidavit indicating that the voter doesn't have any ID as a 7 result of a natural disaster; is that right? 8 A 9 president. A natural disaster declared by the governor or the Yes, ma'am. 10 Q So beside those two exceptions and the one you described 11 about the picture and similar name, all other voters who cast a 12 provisional ballot because they didn't have a form of Senate 13 Bill 14 ID must go to the registrar and present compliant ID 14 within the cure period; is that right? 15 A 16 verified. 17 Q 18 voter who cast a provisional ballot would have until the 19 following Monday to go to the registrar and show compliant 20 Senate Bill 14 ID; is that right? 21 A 22 observed, and then it would be the next Tuesday. 23 Q 24 registrar's office only need be open for provisional voters 25 during regular business hours on regular business days; is that Compliant ID from which the voter's identity can be Yes, ma'am. In other words, if an election were on a Tuesday, the Right, unless Monday was Veterans Day or Veterans Day The Secretary of State's regulations provide that a voter EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 353 1 right? 2 A What required that? 3 Q The Secretary of State's regulations, Texas Administrative 4 Code 81.175(b)(3); is that correct? 5 A 6 is true that we cannot mandate for counties to be open 7 additional hours. 8 counties. 9 Q There's only one voter registrar per county, right? 10 A That's true. 11 Q And in most cases, it's a farther distance for a voter to 12 travel to the registrar's office than to a polling location; is 13 that correct? 14 A 15 there's only one voter registrar's office. 16 satellite locations in larger population counties, so I 17 wouldn't agree that there's just one central location for every 18 county. 19 Q 20 provisional ballot due to Senate Bill 14 ID problems, correct? 21 A 22 that. 23 election officials about that question. 24 Q 25 TEAM; is that right? I'm not familiar with that off the top of my head, but it We can't impose unfunded mandates on the There's one voter registrar, but that doesn't meant There are often And you have no idea how many voters have cast a No, ma'am. We've not made any survey or determination of I've read news reports and I've talked to county Counties are not required to track provisional ballots in EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 354 1 A That's right. 2 Q And many counties elect not to voluntarily supply that 3 information into TEAM; is that correct? 4 A 5 is in smaller population counties with very low number of 6 provisional ballots. 7 ballot secrecy, and so they will lump their provisional ballots 8 that were counted in with early voting or election day voting 9 rather than call attention to it separately, so that people I wouldn't say "many." It's a few. And usually the case They are concerned about maintaining 10 don't know how someone voted. 11 Q 12 into TEAM, TEAM doesn't indicate the reason the ballot was 13 rejected; is that correct? 14 A 15 the number of provisional ballots and the number of provisional 16 ballots that are accepted and rejected is the EAC survey that's 17 done at the end of even-numbered years. 18 Q 19 It's more burdensome to apply for an EIC than it is to register 20 to vote in Texas; is that right? 21 A I don't know. 22 Q Okay. 23 for an EIC to submit documentary proof of U.S. citizenship; is 24 that correct? 25 A And even if a county inputs data about provisional ballots That's right. Okay. The way that we capture the information on I want to turn to the topic of applying for an EIC. Let's talk about it. DPS requires voters applying It's my understanding that you have to present proof of EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 355 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 citizenship and identity. 2 Q 3 provide documentary proof of U.S. citizenship to register to 4 vote in Texas; is that right? 5 A They have to swear they're a citizen. 6 Q But they don't have to provide documentary proof of 7 citizenship; is that right? 8 A Not yet. 9 Q Other than the affidavit, correct? 10 A That's right. 11 Q For a few months in 2013, when DPS was issuing EICs, it 12 collected fingerprints for all EIC applicants; is that right? 13 A 14 don't know if it was months, or weeks, or days. 15 Q It was in 2013; is that correct? 16 A It was in 2013. 17 Q And it was the Secretary of State's Office that told DPS 18 to stop collecting fingerprints, correct? 19 A 20 do it will be a very good day. 21 anything. 22 Q 23 fingerprinting was unnecessary and might create an additional 24 hurdle for voters, right? 25 A Whereas voter registration applicants don't need to They check the box. No, ma'am. I don't know. I know they did it for some period. I I don't know. Yes, ma'am. The very day that we can tell DPS to do anything and they No, we did not tell DPS to do We ask if they might refrain from doing that. Yes. And you told them this because you thought that I felt like that there was not a good justification for EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 356 1 requiring the fingerprints. I understood the reason they were 2 doing it. 3 know, they didn't want to add a layer of complexity with their 4 customer service representatives by having a different process 5 for this particular form of ID, so I understand why they did 6 it. 7 concerned, that was an unnecessary thing and -- with regard to 8 verifying the voter's identity -- and that it might be 9 something that some voters would object to. They had an existing process in place, and, you But I wanted to make clear to them that, as far as we were And since there 10 was no reason for it, it probably would be a good idea for it 11 not to happen. 12 Q 13 that DPS was somewhat resistant to making this change? 14 A 15 They just had reasons why they did it. 16 allowed it. 17 know, didn't want to change horses in midstream. 18 Q 19 enforcement agency; and when they interact with someone, they 20 want to collect data; is that right? 21 A 22 to us is that the -- adding a layer of complexity with regard 23 to customer service representatives in a different process 24 would be a training issue for them and it would take time. 25 Q And is it fair to say, based on your previous comment, I don't know if I would characterize it as "resistant." The bill, SB 14, They had passed a rule for it. And so they, you And DPS wanted to collect fingerprints because it's a law I don't know about that. What the -- what they expressed And DPS, to your knowledge, hasn't changed its regulation EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 357 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 that requires them to collect fingerprints from EIC applicants, 2 correct? 3 A I don't know. 4 Q Voter registration applicants don't need to provide 5 fingerprints to register to vote, right? 6 A No, ma'am. 7 Q And you don't know whether an applicant for a passport has 8 to provide fingerprints, do you? 9 A I haven't read the rule. I don't think so. My wife and daughter have passports 10 that they've applied for recently, and I don't think they had 11 to submit fingerprints. 12 Q 13 DPS offices, correct? 14 A That's right. 15 Q And usually law enforcement is not present at the polling 16 place on election day; is that correct? 17 A 18 not. 19 like there's a risk to a breach of the peace, and so they can 20 call a constable or something to come to the polling location, 21 and that happens periodically. 22 Q So let's talk about mobile units. 23 A Well, a mobile unit is a collection of equipment that can 24 be transported from place to place. 25 a printer-scanner. State troopers or law enforcement are usually present at I don't know about "usually." I guess usually they're They can be if, for some reason, the election judge feels What are mobile units? So it's a computer. It's a backdrop for a photo. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC It's a It's 358 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 camera. It's a tripod. And it can go in these -- in bins and 2 be transported to a location, set up, and then taken down, and 3 moved to another place. 4 Q 5 of State's Office was involved in directing the location of 6 mobile units to issue EICs; is that correct? 7 A 8 for the program. 9 Q I believe you testified in your direct that the Secretary With regard to the 25 sets of equipment that we purchased Yes, ma'am. And the Secretary of State and DPS have a memorandum of 10 understanding about mobile units, correct? 11 A 12 We do. Again, with regard to the 25 that we purchased. MS. WESTFALL: Could you please pull up PL 281? 13 Q This is the memorandum of understanding you were just 14 testifying about, correct? 15 A 16 it. 17 Q 18 down to the second page at the bottom, or maybe the third, or 19 the fourth, at the bottom -- you entered into this in October 20 2013, correct? 21 A 22 already been operating under those provisions for probably a 23 month by then. 24 Q 25 and DPS had agreed to do jointly with regard to EIC mobile That's right. It looks like it. It's the first page of You entered into this document -- and I guess scrolling Right. That's the time when it was formalized. We had And the MOU set forth what the Secretary of State's Office EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 359 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 units; is that right? 2 A Right, the 25 that we had purchased. 3 Q And as of the date of your deposition in April 2014, the 4 MOU was in effect, right? 5 A That's right. 6 Q And there's no law or regulation requiring the Secretary 7 of State and DPS to enter into this agreement; is that right? 8 A 9 statute. That's correct. There's not any -- it's not part of the 10 Q There's no law or regulation requiring the Secretary of 11 State and DPS to offer mobile EIC centers to voters without 12 qualifying SB 14 ID; is that correct? 13 A 14 opportunities available for folks to collect EICs. 15 Q 16 at the top -- I guess it's Page 4, at the top, where it's 17 highlighted -- if you could blow that up -- by the very terms 18 of this agreement, the Secretary of State and DPS could agree 19 to terminate this memorandum at any time; is that right? 20 A Right. 21 Q In fact, the issue -- 22 A And -- 23 Q -- of whether to continue the EIC mobile program is left 24 to the discretion of the Secretary of State and DPS; is that 25 correct? There's not a legal requirement that we make mobile No, ma'am. And turning your attention to Page 3, items -- Section 7, EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall That's correct. 360 1 A I would imagine the governor's office 2 would have something to say about it as well, but yes. 3 Q 4 The memorandum of understanding, turning back to Page 1 of PL 5 281, in Section 3, the MOU provided for 25 mobile units 6 purchased by the Secretary of State, correct? 7 A It did -- does. 8 Q And these 25 units were intended to cover the entire State 9 of Texas, to the extent counties did not have a driver license And I believe you testified about that in your deposition. 10 office; is that correct? 11 A No, ma'am. 12 Q The MOU provided -- the sum total of the units provided by 13 this MOU was 25; is that correct? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q You don't have a separate MOU to provide for other mobile 16 units beyond the 25 in the MOU, which is PL 281; is that right? 17 A 18 only. 19 DPS. 20 Q And we'll talk a little bit about that later. 21 A Well, I just want to make clear that this program is not 22 designed to cover counties that don't have driver's license 23 offices. 24 Q 25 number of mobile units needed to reach registered and eligible That is not correct. That's right. Because the other mobile units are DPS They're not -- it's not a joint process with us and the It's their program completely, exclusively. This is a separate program from that one. Thank you. The Secretary of State didn't analyze the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 361 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 voters without qualifying photo ID; is that correct? 2 A 3 begin to answer that question. 4 what you don't know. 5 ID, so we don't have any ability -- you know, for the numerator 6 piece -- to even -- or the denominator piece, to even begin the 7 process of such an analysis. 8 Q 9 that right? I don't even know how to answer that question. I can't There are -- you can't analyze We don't know how many people don't have So put differently, you did not conduct such analysis; is 10 A We can't. 11 Q And you didn't, correct? 12 A We can't, so we didn't. 13 Q The Secretary of State could have purchased more mobile 14 units, correct? 15 A Could have, sure. 16 Q Mobile units tend to be in a location within a county for 17 two days; is that correct? 18 A 19 or two at a spot; however, we did have mobile units, especially 20 in Houston, at the Lone Star College and the Holman Street 21 Baptist Church, for six weeks leading up to the 2013 election. 22 Q 23 the county after that two-day period; is that correct? 24 A 25 county, sometimes it would go to an adjacent county. I -- it varies. You can't do what you can't do. It can -- it primarily was either a day Mobile units were generally moved to another location in Again, it varied. Sometimes it would move within the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC The plan Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 362 1 that we followed was sort of trying to make a trek, a path; so, 2 yes, it moved. 3 county, I don't know. 4 But whether it moved in county or out of It depended. MS. WESTFALL: Could you pull up PL 281 again? 5 Q Under the MOU -- under the MOU, the Secretary of State is 6 only required to provide two days' notice to DPS of the 7 location for each mobile EIC center before the start date of 8 operations, correct? 9 A The minimum date in the MOU, the minimum required lead 10 time was two days. That was lengthened to five days later. 11 Q But that's not memorialized in the memorandum, is it? 12 A I -- that's memorialized -- we have to memorialized 13 amendments to this in writing, and we've done it in e-mails 14 subsequent to this. 15 Q 16 counties on the location of the mobile units, correct? 17 A Sure. 18 Q In fact, some counties informed you they felt they didn't 19 have enough notice of the mobile units to sufficiently 20 advertise to voters, correct? 21 A 22 that was a complaint we heard. 23 know, this process especially was a process of building the 24 airplane while we were flying it. 25 sensitive. Some counties had complaints about lack of notice to the I don't know exactly what you're talking about; but, yes, And like I told Mr. Scott, you This was intense, time- EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 363 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 Q Is it fair to say that some counties thought that 2 providing mobile units that were only open during business 3 hours was not particularly helpful, correct? 4 A 5 heard it from Oscar Villarreal in Webb County. Yes, we heard that from Javier Chacon in El Paso and we 6 MS. WESTFALL: Could you pull up PL 292? 7 go to the second page, please. 8 Q 9 13th, 2013? Could you Did you receive a letter from Bruce Elfant on October 10 A Yes. 11 next day, but yes. 12 I mean, I don't know if I got it that day or the MS. WESTFALL: And if you could highlight the first 13 paragraph? 14 Q 15 week and a half to prepare for the outreach locations? 16 A 17 week and a half. 18 that's all he had, was because the elections office -- Bruce 19 Elfant is the tax assessor/collector for Travis County. 20 elections office is in Dana DeBeauvoir, the county clerk's, 21 office. 22 locations. 23 Q 24 Mr. Elfant reports on the contacts that resulted from the 25 mobile units? Do you see that Mr. Elfant is -- indicates that he had a I see that that's what he says. I disagree that he had a The reason that he had a week and a half, if The And the elections office had issues coming up with And turning down to the bottom of Page 1, do you see that EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 A I do. 2 Q There were 224 contacts, correct? 3 A That's what he says. 4 Q And you see at the bottom it indicates there were zero 5 election identification certificates issued, correct? 6 A I agree that's what he says. 7 Q And on the next page of this letter, at the top, on the 8 very first sentence -- if you could highlight that -- do you 9 see that Mr. Elfant indicated, "We learned from this effort 364 10 that it's more difficult to reach this population than we 11 expected"? 12 A I definitely see that's what he says. 13 Q So DPS -- and you could put that down. 14 A I don't know what population he's talking about, and so I 15 don't know what he means by that. 16 Q 17 operate during business hours, correct? 18 A 19 would be open during business hours. 20 Q 21 units were only open during business hours, correct? 22 A That is not correct. 23 Q Apart from some extended hours in Webb County, you're not 24 aware of mobile units that operated in 2013 with extended 25 hours; is that correct? Yes, ma'am. So DPS believed that it -- the mobile units it ran should DPS definitely preferred that we tell the counties it And in advance of the November 2013 elections, the mobile No, ma'am. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 365 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 A I know that in Webb County on a Friday night, we went 2 late. 3 provoked DPS's desire to have business hours only. 4 have been one or two that were open until 6:00 or 7:00. 5 Q But that's it, correct? 6 A Yes, ma'am. 7 Q Sir, you testified about the county offices that were 8 processing applications for EICs at a county site using mobile 9 EIC materials, correct? I don't know if, in the early stages, that might have There might 10 A 11 specifically. 12 that didn't have driver's license offices was handled by DPS. 13 We did have some input with regard to that, and we definitely 14 interfaced with those county election officials on the front 15 end of that program. 16 I don't know if I testified that -- about that The plan for reaching the 79 counties in Texas And so the plan, as I understood it, DPS's plan, was 17 to try to get the counties to agree to issue election 18 identification certificates on a regular basis in their county 19 using their existing personnel. 20 not agree to accept the training and the equipment in order to 21 do that for themselves, the DPS made a commitment to be in 22 those counties at least five days in a row prior to the 23 November '13 election. 24 25 And the counties that would And I think they're doing the same thing this fall for the counties that continue not to issue EICs on their own. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 366 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 Q So some counties and DPS have entered into an agreement 2 for this purpose, correct? 3 A That's right. 4 Q And you testified in your deposition about the contract 5 between DPS and the counties, correct? 6 A 7 interlocal agreement. 8 it to me, and I forwarded it to DPS for them. I don't know if I testified about it. 9 I've seen the Some of the counties who signed it sent MS. WESTFALL: 10 MR. SPEAKER: 11 MS. WESTFALL: Could you pull up PL 282, please. Two -Two eighty-two. That's 828. Thank 12 you. 13 BY MS. WESTFALL: 14 Q 15 correct? 16 A I don't -- 17 Q It -- 18 A -- know what that means. 19 Q This is the -- 20 A The only counties -- 21 Q -- contract -- 22 A -- that this could be used with are the 79 that don't have 23 a driver's license office. 24 used with all 254 counties. 25 Q This is a standard contract used with all counties, And so it's certainly not to be But -EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 367 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 A So the 79 that don't have a driver's license office, this 2 is the standard agreement if they accept it. 3 Q 4 agreement, correct? 5 A Sure. 6 Q Counties are not paid for their services under this 7 agreement, correct? 8 A That's right. 9 Q So counties can determine if they want to participate in Thank you. Counties can voluntarily enter into this 10 this program, correct? 11 A That's right. 12 Q In fact, under this interlocal cooperation contract, 13 counties can unilaterally terminate this agreement with 30 14 days' notice; is that right? 15 A 16 lately, but I think that's what it says. 17 Q 18 the bottom, under "Terms and Conditions," it indicates 19 termination. 20 A 21 do it or DPS could do it. 22 Q 23 county to participate in this program, correct? 24 A No, that's right. 25 Q Some -- in your experience, some counties refuse to I believe so. I haven't seen the termination provision And why don't we just turn to that. I do. On the first page, at Do you see that? So it says either party can do it. The county can And you're not aware of any legal obligation for any EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 368 1 participate in this county-run EIC program, correct? 2 A Yes, they did. 3 Q Some counties refused to be trained to operate these 4 offices, correct? 5 A They did refuse to participate. 6 Q Nothing from a legal standpoint that the Secretary could 7 do in response to this reaction, was there? 8 A 9 with us. That's right. Yes, ma'am. As is often the case when they disagree 10 Q And the Secretary of State has no recourse if a county 11 refuses to participate except to try to persuade the county to 12 participate in this program; is that right? 13 A We did use our most persuasive tone of voice. 14 Q And the Secretary of State has no recourse if a county 15 refuses to participate; is that right? 16 A 17 that. 18 Q 19 program, correct? 20 A 21 regular business hours. 22 business hours, but they need to be regular. That's right. I've said that before. I agree with you on And counties can set the hours of operation of this Yes, the Election Code requires that voter registrars have It doesn't mean that they are normal 23 And during those regular business hours, they need to 24 offer voter registration to the members -- to the population of 25 their county. And so it's a similar thing for this, that they EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 369 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 have to offer it during regular business hours -- whatever that 2 is for that county. 3 Q 4 first paragraph on Page 1 -- on Page 1 -- it indicates, does it 5 not, that the county selects the hours of operations; is that 6 right? 7 A That's right. 8 Q And, in fact, a number of counties have set irregular or 9 temporary hours; is that right? And turning back to the PL 282, under "County," in the 10 A I don't know what they've done. 11 Q Are you aware that, in Hansford County, the office 12 offering EICs is only open between 8:00 a.m. and 4:45 p.m. on 13 weekdays? 14 A I don't know even know where Hansford is. 15 Q Okay. 16 A I assume that's one of the little places up in the 17 panhandle, but I don't know for sure. 18 Q 19 doesn't accept EIC applications in the normal course of 20 business and only accepts EIC applications on a total of four 21 days before the election? 22 A I'm not aware of what La Salle County does. 23 Q And about 61 counties, or maybe 55 as we heard from 24 Mr. Rodriguez yesterday, issue EICs; is that right? 25 A I'd have to check. And you're -- are you aware that in La Salle County, it I heard that testimony. I was glad to hear it. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC The last 370 Ingram - Cross / By Ms. Westfall 1 number I had heard was 40 counties had agreed and had been 2 trained. 3 Q 4 have actually issued EICs of that 40, or 55, or 61? 5 A 6 Grimes County has issued three of them, the last I heard, 7 because she's very proud of that achievement. 8 Q 9 51 of those counties have not issued a single EIC? And are you aware of the number of county offices that I don't know how many have. I know that Becky Duff in Are you aware that, of all of the counties offering EICs, 10 A That wouldn't surprise me. No, ma'am. 11 Q So the state has been implementing the EIC program for 12 more than one year at this point, correct? 13 A 14 to the public since June 25th or June 26th, 2013. 15 Q 16 April of this year, you couldn't assess whether the EIC program 17 had been successfully made available to the public, correct? 18 A 19 that we were going to evaluate the success of the mobile unit 20 program after this November's election. Election identification certificates have been available Yes, ma'am. And when you had your deposition taken in this case in I don't think that's what I said. 21 I think that I said But as regards the whole EIC obligation of the State 22 of Texas, we are certainly not going to undertake an evaluation 23 of that. 24 Q 25 number of EICs issued was 279 for the entire State of Texas? That's for the Legislature to do. And as of September 5th, 2014, are you aware that the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 371 Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Dunbar 1 A I have heard that number this week. 2 heard of it. 3 4 MS. WESTFALL: Thank you. That's the first I've I have no further questions. 5 THE COURT: Anyone else over here? 6 MR. DUNBAR: Yes. 7 MR. DUNBAR: Good afternoon, Mr. Ingram. My name is 8 Kelly Dunbar, and I represent the Texas League of Young Voters 9 Education Fund and Imani Clark. 10 And we've never met before, but it's good to meet you. 11 THE WITNESS: 12 MR. DUNBAR: 13 Good to meet you. And I just have a few questions for you. CROSS EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. DUNBAR: 15 Q 16 from New York City involving an investigation into in-person 17 voter impersonation; is that correct? 18 A 19 out to me. 20 Q 21 is that correct? 22 A 23 National State Election Directors meeting in Washington, D. C. 24 in January or February of this year. 25 Q Now, you testified in your direct testimony about a report That's right. Right. That was the piece of the report that stuck And that report was released in December of 2013; I know it was at the end of 2013, right before our Okay. And SB 14 itself was enacted in 2011; is that EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 372 Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Dunbar 1 correct? 2 A It was. 3 Q And the decision made by the Attorney General's office to 4 enforce SB 14 immediately after the Supreme Court Shelby County 5 decision, that was made in the summer of 2013; is that correct? 6 A June 25th, 2013, yes, sir. 7 Q So the information contained in this New York report 8 couldn't possibly have influenced either the legislative 9 decision to enact SB 14 or the Attorney General's decision to 10 enforce; is that correct? 11 A 12 At that time, I was in the Governor's office. 13 what influenced them or not. 14 after in time can't influence them. 15 in-person voter impersonation fraud I think was very much on 16 their minds. 17 Q 18 and I've been reviewing it here since you mentioned it -- this 19 was an undercover sting operation by the Department of 20 Investigations within New York City; is that correct? 21 A I believe so, yes. 22 Q So not a single one -- and just so the record is clear, 23 not a single one of the 61 instances you've mentioned is 24 actually a case of in-person voter fraud; is that correct? 25 A I wasn't part of the legislative process on SB 14 in 2011. Okay. So I don't know Obviously something that occurs However, the prospect of And so I -- as I understand the report correctly -- Well, I don't know what you're using for a definition. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 373 Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Dunbar 1 What happened in that situation is that 61 times out of 63, 2 using someone else's identity they were able to obtain a ballot 3 and go back to the voting booth. 4 Inspector General for the State of New York, they did not want 5 to commit a crime by illegally voting that ballot, so they did 6 not vote it. 7 a ballot is not committing in-person voter impersonation fraud, 8 I agree with you on that. 9 swing an election or commit fraud. 10 that the system was not foolproof. 11 Q 12 had the mens rea, or the intent, to commit voter fraud. 13 were all investigators; is that correct? 14 A 15 rea. 16 and they did so show. 17 Q Right. So if you're saying that stopping short of voting It was not actually an attempt to It was an attempt to show So there was not a single one of these individuals I'm not a criminal lawyer. They I'm not going to get into mens They had an intent to show that the system was penetrable Right. 18 19 Now, obviously being the Well, let me -- MR. DUNBAR: Your Honor, if I may approach the witness? 20 THE COURT: 21 MR. DUNBAR: Yes. We printed off a copy of the report 22 here. I have a copy up on my iPad. 23 BY MR. DUNBAR: 24 Q Have you seen that report before? 25 A Sure. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Dunbar 1 Q And is that the report you're referring to? 2 A It is. 3 Q Okay. 4 MR. DUNBAR: And can we bring it up on the -- could 5 we turn to page -- 6 Q Could you turn to page 13 of the report? 7 A Absolutely. 8 9 MR. DUNBAR: 374 I'm sorry, PDF page 13, or page 13 at the bottom. 10 Q And the very last paragraph on the page, the very last 11 sentence. 12 Mr. Ingram? 13 A 14 finding of actual voter fraud," because, of course, they're not 15 committing voter fraud, "but rather consists of snapshots of 16 deficiencies in the voter rolls. 17 MR. DUNBAR: Could you read that sentence aloud into the record, Sure. That sentence says, "This information is not a And then can we drop down to footnote 18 25, please? 19 Q Could you read the first sentence of footnote 25? 20 A Sure. 21 fraud is rare." 22 Q 23 Minnite. 24 A Uh-huh. 25 Q Are you aware that she's an expert that testified in this It says, "Several studies have concluded that voter And you'll see the first cite there as to Dr. Lorraine EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 375 Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Dunbar 1 case? 2 A I am not. 3 Q That footnote sentence, the authors of the report seem to 4 be suggesting that -- accepting the conclusion that voter fraud 5 is actually rare, correct? 6 A I don't read that from this, no, sir. 7 Q Well, they're making the point that the investigators -- 8 that the finding only relates to the potential that there's 9 some bloat in the registration polls, that this is "not a 10 finding of actual voter fraud," correct? 11 A 12 rolls makes voter impersonation fraud possible if you don't 13 have a photo ID requirement. 14 voter fraud has occurred, that actual voter fraud prosecutions 15 are rare, is not proof that in-person voter impersonation 16 doesn't happen. 17 able to obtain a ballot under false identity is an indicator 18 that voter fraud could be more prevalent than is actually known 19 of by prosecutions. 20 Q 21 the rate at which in-person voter fraud might be detected. 22 doesn't say a thing about the prevalence of whether in-person 23 voter fraud is actually occurring; would you agree with that? 24 A 25 improbability of detection makes it impossible to know how Well, the point of the bloat in the voter registration Right. Because it hasn't been shown that And the fact that 61 out of 63 times they were But the study at best suggests that it speaks to I would agree with that. And I would say that the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC It Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Dunbar 376 1 often it actually occurs because it is impossible to detect if 2 you don't check. And without a photo ID, we don't check. 3 Q And are you aware that New York law has no ID 4 requirement at the actual ballot place? 5 A I am. 6 Q Okay. 7 middle paragraph, the first few sentences speak to the fact 8 that these 61 of 63 instances, the investigators simply signed 9 their name at a registration -- in a registration book, Understood. And so if you look at -- if you scroll up to the 10 correct? 11 A That's right. 12 Q And the paragraph also goes on to suggest that the real 13 problem here is that the poll workers weren't doing their job 14 checking the signatures that they signed on paper versus the 15 signatures in the registration rolls, correct? 16 A 17 their twenties and thirties signing for an 82-year-old or a 92- 18 year-old, then -- 19 Q 20 New York's non-photo ID law. 21 enforcing the law that they were supposed to enforce, correct? 22 A I don't know about that at all. 23 Q Okay. 24 Ms. Westfall that Texas in fact did have a form of 25 identification requirement in effect at the polls, correct? And -- Right, and the date of birth. Right. If you've got somebody in So the problem with detection wasn't necessarily It was that poll workers weren't And prior to SB 14, I believe you testified to EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 377 Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Dunbar 1 A That's right. You could bring your voter registration 2 certificate or you could bring somebody else's voter 3 registration certificate and vote it. 4 Q 5 record in this case establishes that since 2002, in the State 6 of Texas, there has been a grand total of one conviction for 7 in-person voter impersonation and one guilty plea? 8 A I'm not aware of those numbers, no, sir. 9 Q Okay. 10 A -- I don't -- 11 Q -- don't factor into your opinion about the prevalence of 12 in-person voter fraud in Texas? 13 A 14 it happens. 15 trying to prevent here. 16 that it can happen again, unless you have something in place to 17 prevent it. 18 whether it's two cases or 61 out of 63, or whatever it is, the 19 fact that it's possible and that it does in fact happen 20 sometimes -- we have some elections in this state, a remarkable 21 number of elections that are one or two votes or tied. 22 this kind of thing, if it happens at all, is a problem. 23 Q 24 assumption. 25 instances occurring since 2002. And with that ID requirement, are you aware that the No. I mean -- Those numbers -- The fact that those cases exist indicates to me that Okay. The fact that it happens is the thing that we're And the fact that it happens indicates And that is the whole point of those cases. So And Mr. Ingram, let's do the math then on that You've said you have no reason to doubt the two Let's accept that this EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 378 Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Dunbar 1 investigative study in the State of New York that's really 2 about voter registration actually has something to do with in- 3 person voter impersonation, and let's do the math. 4 A Well, you understand -- 5 Q So the -- 6 A -- in Texas, we've got bloated voter rolls as well -- 7 Q Sir -- 8 A -- despite our best efforts. 9 common problem across states. You -- I mean, this is a You might have seen a pew study 10 that said something like, I don't know eight million voters 11 across the country shouldn't be on the rolls. 12 a common problem that, despite our best efforts, occurs. 13 Q 14 want to do the math accepting any applicability of this study. 15 Sixty-three -- there were 63 attempts to vote as an ineligible 16 voter by these investigators and they were caught twice, right? 17 So that's -- doing my rough math, that's a 97 percent capture 18 rate, correct? 19 percent of the time they were caught, correct? 20 A I haven't done the numbers. 21 Q Okay. 22 incidents in Texas that have been proven either by a guilty 23 plea or a conviction in the past ten years. 24 pretty simple, I think, given that we have two, we were caught 25 twice there, we have two instances here. I know. I mean, this is I'm asking a different question, though. I just Or, sorry, excuse me, success rate; three I'll take your word on that. And so if we extrapolate that out, we have two So the math is If we extrapolated EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Dunbar 379 1 that number out and accepted the relevance of this detection 2 rate, that would mean that over the course of that ten years in 3 Texas, there have been 63 cases of in-person voter 4 impersonation, correct? 5 A Yeah, I -- 6 Q Would you agree with that math? 7 A Definitely not. 8 Q What's wrong with the math, sir? 9 A There's nothing wrong with the math. Or 6.3 a year. There's something 10 wrong with the assumption behind it, that the rate of capture 11 is the same as it was in New York. 12 been two convictions, either a conviction and a guilty plea, 13 doesn't mean that people weren't caught more often than that. 14 I heard about one in Maverick County where a brother showed up 15 to vote for his brother. 16 there's only two convictions that you're aware of as we sit 17 here today doesn't mean that's the only number that was caught. 18 It just means that that's the number that was convicted. 19 And -- 20 Q But, sir, this was -- 21 A And -- 22 Q Sorry, go ahead. 23 Q -- I further don't agree that the rate here is necessarily 24 indicative of the rate in Texas. 25 be lower, so it could be less than six a year, it could be a The fact that there have And so, you know, just because It could be higher, it could EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 380 Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Dunbar 1 lot more than six a year. We don't know, you and I, as we sit 2 here today. 3 requirement, we can't know because we don't check. 4 Q 5 percent -- or a three percent capture rate from New York is 6 applicable to Texas, but you are willing to accept the idea 7 that a controlled study by investigators somehow sheds light on 8 the potential for voter fraud in Texas, despite the fact they 9 operate under fundamentally different identification laws? What we do know is that without a photo ID So, sir, you are unwilling to accept the fact that a 97 10 A I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. 11 saying that this study shows that it's possible and that it's 12 relatively successful. 13 The fact that it does happen and we do catch people doing it in 14 Texas without photo ID indicates that not only is it possible, 15 but that it happens. 16 that we should have in place a reasonable control to make sure 17 that it doesn't happen anymore. 18 Q Okay. 19 A That's all I'm saying. 20 Q And I -- you've read the report you said, correct? 21 A Sure. 22 Q So I take it you're aware the authors of the report 23 explain that the findings they made here were not statistically 24 significant? 25 A Yeah, I guess. I'm That's all this study shows for me. The combination of those two things means I don't know. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 381 Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Dunbar 1 Q Okay. 2 A Sure. 3 4 (Pause) Q And can you read footnote 65? 5 6 Could we turn to page 49, please? MR. SCOTT: May the witness be allowed to read the reference point -- 7 MR. DUNBAR: Okay. I'm sorry, sure. You can scroll up. 8 A So what they're saying is that they found 63 9 ineligible persons on the rolls and that those 63 persons are 10 not statistically significant compared to the total voter roll. 11 Yeah, I agree with that -- 12 Q So that means the results could have been random, correct? 13 A I don't know what that means. 14 Q Okay. 15 A It means -- 16 Q No, we'll move on. 17 A -- that 63 people out of however many the total number of 18 registered voters is a statistically insignificant number. 19 That's a -- 20 Q Okay. 21 A -- small number for this voter roll. 22 Q Okay, thank you. 23 section of the report, please, which is page 45? 24 entitled "Conclusions and Recommendations" and goes on for the 25 next few pages. And could you turn to the recommendation It's actually If you've read the report, you may not need to EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Dunbar 382 1 review it. 2 undercover sting operation, was there any recommendation made 3 that the City or the State adopt photo identification 4 requirements? 5 A I don't believe so, no, sir. 6 Q Okay. 7 A Their emphasis was on cleaning up the voter rolls and 8 making sure that poll workers were trained. 9 Q Right. But I guess my question is, as a result of this And those things had nothing to do with photo 10 identification requirements, correct? 11 A That's right. 12 Q Okay. 13 opinions on the prevalence of -- potential prevalence of in- 14 person voter impersonation in Texas, but has the Secretary of 15 State's Office studied or is there anything you can point us to 16 that would document the prevalence of in-person voter 17 impersonation, other than the information we've already been 18 supplied by the Office of the Attorney General? 19 A Right. And, again, I think you're misunderstanding what 20 I'm saying. I'm making no comment on the prevalence of voter 21 impersonation fraud. 22 I -- 23 Q 24 prevalence of in-person voter fraud is in Texas? 25 A Okay. And just so I'm clear, you’ve offered a lot of I'm making no comment on that whatsoever. So sitting here today, you have no idea what the I know that it happens and I know that it's possible EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 383 Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Brazil 1 without a photo ID to check. 2 Q 3 4 THE WITNESS: Scott Brazil for Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Scott. Good to see you. MR. BRAZIL: You and I met at your deposition a few months ago, did we not? 9 THE WITNESS: 10 11 Briefly, your Honor. the Veasey/LULAC Plaintiffs. 7 8 Thank you, sir. MR. BRAZIL: 5 6 Okay. MR. BRAZIL: We did. I'm batting cleanup, so if I lose you, just stop me and ask me to back up and start over. 12 THE WITNESS: 13 MR. BRAZIL: Okay? Sure will. I want to cover five or six areas with 14 you very briefly, and a couple of the other lawyers touched on 15 these areas. 16 CROSS EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. BRAZIL: 18 Q 19 that the Secretary of State's Office, or role, was to implement 20 Senate Bill 14 by implementing the forms, educating the poll 21 workers, educating the public, determining the types of IDs 22 that the legislator wanted to use. 23 A 24 the legislator is to: 25 I think you told Mr. Scott -- and I wrote this down -- More or less. Is that a good summary? Our role with regard to the laws passed by "-- Obtain and maintain uniformity in the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 384 Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Brazil 1 application, operation, and interpretation of the 2 Election Code and election laws outside the Code. 3 performing this duty, the Secretary shall prepare 4 detailed and comprehensive written directives and 5 instructions related to and based on this Code and 6 the election laws outside this Code. 7 shall deliver -- distribute these materials to the 8 appropriate state and local authorities having duties 9 in the administration of these laws." The Secretary 10 And that is exactly what we did with regard to SB 14. 11 Q And you're reading from what, for the record? 12 A I'm reading from the Election Code, Section 31.003. 13 Q Okay. 14 A The next thing that we are responsible for is providing 15 assistance and advice to election workers as they implement 16 these laws. 17 Q 18 DPS; is that correct? 19 A Sure. 20 Q Okay. 21 the Department of Public Safety to do anything; you can just 22 strongly suggest. 23 A 24 all of those things, yes, sir. 25 Q Okay. In And that's 31.004. So in doing that, you also had to interact with the And you've already told us that you cannot force We can suggest, we can cajole, we can persuade, we can do And one example that was brought up was the fact that the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Brazil 385 1 Secretary of State's Office strongly suggested to the DPS that 2 they not fingerprint applicants for EICs, correct? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q Okay. 5 A We definitely made that suggestion. 6 the strength of the suggestion. 7 Q It was strong enough that they stopped doing it. 8 A Well, they stopped doing it. 9 of our suggestion. I don't know about We thought it was a bad idea. I don't know if it's because I'd flatter myself to think so. 10 Q Do you know why they stopped doing it? 11 A I don't. 12 Q Were you here when Mr. Rodriguez testified from the DPS? 13 A I was, but I wasn't here for his whole deposition, if he 14 talked about that. 15 Q 16 the State of Texas ever been involved in any election process 17 until Senate Bill 14? 18 A Sure. 19 Q Okay. 20 A We've got an -- obviously a relationship with the 21 Department of Public Safety as a result of their obligations 22 under the NVRA. 23 voter registration applications at their offices since NVRA was 24 passed in '93. 25 worked closely with the DPS to have in place a mechanism for To your knowledge, has the Department of Public Safety and Give us an example. So DPS has been responsible for gathering And in connection with that responsibility, we EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 386 Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Brazil 1 transmitting those applications electronically rather than them 2 collecting paper and delivering the paper to the voter 3 registrars in their county. 4 interface with the Department of Public Safety for the 5 transmission of voter registration applications. 6 a number of portals with DPS for live check of voter 7 registration applications. 8 us of the felony convictions. And then we've got the jury 9 wheel database that we have. And we also instituted a new So we now have electronic We also have We have one for the transmission to 10 thing. In 2012, there were a number of reports where a voter 11 would show up at the polls, they wouldn't be on the list of 12 registered voters, they would say, "I registered to vote at DPS 13 when I got my driver's license," and so there was a lot of 14 calls back and forth between the voter registrars and the 15 counties, our office, and DPS about those individuals. 16 we developed after that election a web portal so that the 17 county could upload the information from such voters, and the 18 DPS would check into it. 19 And then they would transmit the information back so there 20 wouldn't be a lot of phone calls and, you know, trying to 21 figure out who to talk to. 22 basis on a number of fronts. 23 Q 24 of Public Safety was in charge of issuing EICs. 25 A And so They have a person dedicated to that. So we work with DPS on an ongoing And after Senate Bill 14 went into effect, the Department The statutory responsibility for issuing election EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Brazil 387 1 identification certificates was given to the DPS, yes, sir. 2 Q 3 correct? 4 A I'm not aware. 5 Q And since the implementation of Senate Bill 14, are you 6 aware of how many EIC applicants were fingerprinted? 7 A I don't know. 8 Q If I go to the Secretary of State's website and I go to 9 the Election Division, will it tell me -- as an EIC applicant, And they were not provided any additional funding, I don't think so. 10 when I go to the DPS office, will it tell me that I will not be 11 fingerprinted? 12 A No. 13 Q Will it tell me that a warrant check will not be 14 performed? 15 A No. 16 Q If I go to the DPS website, will it tell me that when I go 17 to a DPS office to apply for an EIC, that a warrant check will 18 not be performed? 19 A 20 myself totally with their website. 21 though. 22 Q 23 not? 24 A We could have that up by the end of the week. 25 Q Could you strongly suggest to the DPS that they put that No. I don't believe so. I don't -- haven't familiarized That's not a bad idea, I think that we could add that, sure. Okay. And you could add that with a phone call, could you EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 388 Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Brazil 1 on their website as well? 2 A 3 you know, we're doing it, might be a good idea for you all to 4 do it. 5 Q 6 walked into the DPS office, would there be a separate line for 7 applicants who wanted an EIC? 8 A I don't know anything about DPS's process. 9 Q Would there be any signage about the EIC? 10 A I have no idea. 11 Q Would there be a sign that says, "If you apply for an EIC, 12 we will not fingerprint you?" 13 A I don't know. 14 Q Will there be a sign that says, "If you apply for an EIC, 15 we will not do a warrant check?" 16 A I don't know what signs they have at DPS. 17 Q Was anybody in the Secretary of State's Office contacted 18 or requested during the debate in the House and Senate on SB 14 19 with regard to the types of photo identification that were 20 going to be included in the bill? 21 A 22 idea what requests were made or what the back and forth was on 23 the list of IDs. 24 Q 25 contacted and asked for their input into the types of photo I don't know if I could strongly suggest it. I could say, If I went to the DPS office here in Corpus Christi and I wasn't in the Secretary's office at the time. I have no Have you been told by anybody that they were or were not EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Brazil 389 1 identification that would be part of the law? 2 A 3 Ann McGeehan's committee, the whole testimony. 4 Q Okay. 5 A I don't know. 6 head. 7 Q 8 proposed? 9 Office was consulted at that time about the types of photo IDs I haven't heard that from anybody. You know, I've read Was she asked? I don't remember that off the top of my What about the previous sessions when photo ID bills were Do you know whether or not the Secretary of State's 10 that would be -- 11 A I have no idea. 12 Q Okay. 13 A Up until 2008, I was just practicing law, minding my own 14 business. 15 Q And then you went to the Governor's office. 16 THE COURT: 17 Don't you wish you still were. (Laughter) 18 THE WITNESS: Sometimes. 19 BY MR. BRAZIL: 20 Q Then you went to the Governor's office? 21 A I did. 22 Q Okay. 23 Office how long? 24 A Two years, nine months, five days. 25 Q Has the Secretary of State's Office ever conducted any And you've been with the Secretary of State's EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 390 Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Brazil 1 type of studies, analysis, of the effect of Senate Bill 14 on 2 minorities or on the elderly? 3 A No, sir. 4 Q Is it still true today that the Secretary of State's 5 Office does not maintain a database on provisional ballots? 6 A 7 report to us about their provisional ballot totals, and we also 8 have the responsibility of collecting the EAC information at 9 the end of even-numbered years. That's right. We have the information that the counties So we do have information 10 regarding provisional ballots from even-numbered year elections 11 that we've transmitted to the Election Assistance Commission. 12 Q 13 many provisional ballots were cast in November of 2013, 14 correct? 15 A 16 that's an accurate number. 17 Q 18 Office cannot request from the 254 counties after an election 19 how many provisional ballots were cast, how many were cured, 20 and why they were cast? 21 A 22 would. 23 the counties actually put on the elections, and our role is 24 advisory in nature. 25 with the county election officials. But when I took your deposition, you could not tell me how I know what the counties reported to us. Okay. I don't know if Is there any reason why the Secretary of State's I guess we could ask that. I don't know really why we The role that we play with regard to the counties -- And so we have to maintain a relationship They need to trust that EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 391 Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Brazil 1 they're going to get good information from us. And they need 2 to trust that we're not going to ask them to do anything 3 without a very good reason for them to do it. 4 up our ability to ask them to do things on stuff that, you 5 know, maybe we don't need to ask, then we would lose some 6 credibility with the counties that we really need when it comes 7 to crunch time. 8 things, but you have to do the cost benefit analysis as to 9 whether or not the information that you receive would be And so if we use So, you know, we could ask them to do a lot of 10 useful. And given the experience that we've had with photo ID 11 implementation in the November, 2013, election, the March 12 primary, the May uniform date, the May runoff, the special 13 election for SB 4, the special election that we just had with 14 SB 28, as well as who knows how many tax rollback elections, 15 there isn't any indication that there's a need to collect that 16 information in a systematic way. 17 we don't want to use up our opportunity to request things of 18 the counties for something that we don't need. 19 about, of course. 20 happening specifically, but we don't have any real need to have 21 that information, that we can ascertain. 22 Q 23 Office to know how many provisional ballots are cast, 24 especially in a general election by individuals who do not have 25 the required photo identification, and then to see how many of And since there's not a need, We're curious We have natural human curiosity about what's Would it not be important to the Secretary of State's EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 392 Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Brazil 1 those individuals were able to cure? 2 A 3 collect that information. 4 that there's a problem at all. 5 SB 28, there were 127 total provisional ballots reported to us. 6 Now, I have no idea how many of those were ID-related. 7 know from news reports from previous elections that the 8 likelihood is that it's the little end of the stick. 9 127 provisional ballots when there were almost 43,000 cast is Again, if it was a problem, then yes, we might want to But there hasn't been any indication Yesterday's special election in I do And so 10 less than a percent. It's about .2 percent of the ballots cast 11 were provisional in total. 12 doesn't appear to us as if there is a real crying need to find 13 out these numbers when they're small. 14 significant issue that presented itself, then we might think 15 differently about that. 16 Q 17 Secretary of State's Office from requesting that information 18 from the counties? 19 A 20 things. 21 Q 22 to the legislature regarding adding additional photo IDs? 23 A 24 regard. 25 specific issues that have arisen, and so I anticipate that some So it doesn't appear like -- it If there was a Is there any rule or regulation that prevents the Like I said, we could request it. We can request lots of But we limit ourselves in our requests. Has the Secretary of State's Office made any suggestions I have not made any suggestions to the legislature in that I have received inquiries from legislators about EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Brazil 393 1 of those kind of bills will be on the table next session, yes, 2 sir. 3 Q Were you here when Congressman Marc Veasey testified? 4 A I was not. 5 Q He testified that he has a photo ID that he uses as a 6 member of Congress that allows him access to restricted areas 7 in Washington, D. C., including the White House, but he cannot 8 vote with that photo ID. 9 irrational? Does that strike you as odd or 10 A I'm not going to make value judgments about the 11 legislature's decision on what to include in the 630101 list. 12 It's their decision. 13 Q Harris County you will agree is geographically large. 14 A Harris County is a big county population wise and 15 geography, yes, sir. 16 Q 17 and I go in to vote and I don't have photo identification, I'll 18 have to cast a provisional ballot. 19 A That's right. 20 Q Okay. 21 A That's not correct. 22 Q Okay. 23 A You'll have until six days -- 24 Q If I go in on election day, I'll have six days to cure it. 25 A You'll have six days from election day, yes, sir. If I go to my precinct on the north side of Harris County And I'll have six days to cure that. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 394 Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Brazil 1 Q Okay. And where can I go to cure that? 2 A You can go to any of the satellite offices for the Voter 3 Registrar. 4 to any of Mike Sullivan's offices. 5 Q 6 offices will allow you to cure? 7 A 8 talked to Mike about that. 9 Q I believe his name is Mike Sullivan so you can go And do you know where his offices are or do you know which Any satellite office of the VR you can cure at. I've What if I'm an hourly worker and I'm going to have to take 10 off a half a day of work to go and cure because I didn't have 11 the correct photo ID. 12 of that talk about the effect on that person? 13 A 14 hours for their voter registrar so that you can cure on a 15 Saturday. 16 also think that they have Sunday hours. 17 when Veterans Day observed they actually had the offices open 18 on that day for cures. 19 Q 20 going to have a valid Texas drivers license and I have my Voter 21 Registration card. 22 A 23 license you can vote. 24 Q 25 going to be allowed to vote? Are there any studies that you're aware I'm not sure but I believe that Harris County has Saturday There's not any reason to take time off of work. Last question. I And I believe that I go in to vote in my precinct and I'm Am I going to be allowed to vote? I would imagine, yes, sir. If you've got a valid driver's What if my driver's license is 65 days expired. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Am I 395 Ingram - Cross / By Mr. Brazil 1 A You're going to be allowed to vote a provisional ballot, 2 yes, sir. 3 Q 4 example and the second example is the five days; is that 5 correct? 6 A Well, I would say 65 days but yes. 7 Q Okay, 65 days. 8 us and all the witnesses from the State for the Senate Bill 14 9 is to prove who you say you are. Okay. Now, the only thing that changed between the first Isn't the reason that you've been giving Is that right? Photo ID is 10 to prove who you say you are. 11 A 12 that the person in front of the table is the person on the list 13 of registered voters; yes, sir. 14 Q 15 just because I'm 65 days expired I am that person? 16 A 17 know that the legislature has determined that it can be 60 days 18 expired and used and if it's more than 60 days it can't be 19 used. 20 Q 21 have a photo ID that I use to get into all restricted areas of 22 Intercontinental Airport or Dallas Fort Worth. 23 to vote? 24 A 25 on the list of acceptable forms of ID. My belief about the purpose of photo ID is to make sure Okay. Isn't it going to be clear to the poll worker that I don't know what will be clear to the poll worker. I What about -- what if I work for American Airlines and I Can I use that If you're talking about a company ID, no sir. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC That's not 396 1 2 MR. BRAZIL: Thank you. Honor. 3 THE COURT: Okay. MR. SCOTT: No. 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 THE WITNESS: 9 (Witness excused) 4 10 11 THE COURT: You can step down. Ms. Westfall, there's documents up here but they're -- 13 THE COURT: 14 MS. WESTFALL: 17 Thank you. Thank you, Judge. MS. WESTFALL: 16 Your Honor, may the witness be excused? 12 15 Anyone else on the plaintiffs' side? 5 6 Pass the witness, your Oh. Sorry, your Honor. That's okay. Thank you. Have a good day. (Pause) MS. DEASON: Your Honor, Whitney Deason for the Defendant -- 18 THE COURT: Hold on one second. 19 MS. DEASON: Oh, I apologize. 20 (Voices heard off the record) 21 THE COURT: 22 MS. DEASON: Okay. Your Honor, Whitney Deason for the 23 Defendants. We're going to be reading from Senator Troy 24 Fraser's deposition today. 25 for Senator Troy Fraser. And Stephen Tatum will be reading EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 397 Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 EXAMINATION OF TROY FRASER BY EXCERPTS OF DEPOSITION TESTIMONY 2 (QUESTIONS READ BY MS. DEASON; ANSWERS READ BY MR. TATUM) 3 "QUESTION: Senator, are you aware that the Texas 4 Constitution prohibits the passage of a bill within 5 the first 60 days of a legislative session unless it 6 has been designated as an emergency item? 7 "ANSWER: 8 Constitution. 9 "QUESTION: That is my understanding of the Texas Thank you. Was there an urgency in your 10 mind requiring the expeditious passage of Senate 11 Bill 14? 12 "ANSWER: 13 took a position that it would like to go ahead and 14 get this out of the way. 15 it was a general consensus of the Senate as a whole. 16 We didn't make an official decision of that because 17 you can't do that. 18 that it would be nice to go ahead and deal with this 19 issue early. 20 "QUESTION: 21 the polls, putting aside the polls, were there any 22 other facts showing that allowing non-photo ID in a 23 voter ID bill would result in incidents of voter 24 fraud? 25 "ANSWER: It's interesting that the Democratic caucus So the answer is yes, that But the -- both caucuses agreed Thank you for that testimony. Other than Well, there are multiple studies that have EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 398 1 been done all the way back to 2000. There were -- a 2 study by the University of Missouri, there was a 3 study by the University of Delaware, there's a study 4 by the Heritage Foundation, studies by the Baker 5 Carter group, all showing that a photo ID would 6 improve the integrity of the ballot box; and in fact, 7 the implementation of a photo ID bill would not lower 8 turnout in an election. 9 "QUESTION: You mentioned the difficulty of 10 standardizing IDs from public -- from private 11 institutions of higher education. 12 consideration to standardizing ID from public 13 institutions of higher education in Texas? 14 "ANSWER: 15 Kinko's problem, is that you could go there this 16 afternoon and make your own ID very, you know, easily 17 at Kinko's. 18 came up with a very sophisticated process with the 19 driver's licenses with multiple things that cannot be 20 replicated and will keep people from either changing 21 or duplicating a Texas driver's license on an ID that 22 is issued by the Department of Public Safety. 23 "So to ensure the integrity of the ballot box and 24 make sure that an ID has been not been issued by an 25 unauthorized source, we chose to use the four sources Did you give any Actually, we did, but we get into the same We realized that the -- in Texas, we EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 399 Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 that we -- either the federal government of the 2 passport, federal government military ID, a -- the 3 handgun picture ID or an ID issued by the Texas 4 driver's license, the Department of Public Safety or 5 an ID that had been issued for voting were the 6 acceptable forms. 7 "QUESTION: 8 Did you receive any testimony about the difficulty of 9 replicating that ID? What about the concealed handgun license? 10 "ANSWER: Juan Hinojosa is a Democratic member, that 11 I worked very closely with, presented an amendment. 12 He is a -- both a carrier of the permit and a -- and 13 he carries a handgun all the time on the Floor. 14 he asked that that amendment be put into the bill, 15 and I accepted his amendment. 16 "QUESTION: 17 the first document is Exhibit 40. 18 document before? 19 "ANSWER: 20 "QUESTION: 21 "ANSWER: 22 Texas, July 2008. 23 voter ID, they were asked, 'Do you support a law 24 requiring an individual to present a government 25 issued photo ID and in order to be permitted to And Senator, if you would turn to, I believe Have you seen that Yes, I have. What is that? That's a poll taken by the University of The questions that were asked, per EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 400 Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 vote?' A full photo ID. 2 "QUESTION: 3 looked at before the passage of SB 14, correct? 4 "ANSWER: 5 delivered to me prior to the 2009 session. 6 results showed that at that time, 73 percent of 7 Anglos favored a full photo ID, 68 percent of 8 Black -- or African-American and 65 percent of 9 Hispanics. 10 "QUESTION: 11 "ANSWER: 12 "QUESTION: 13 "ANSWER: 14 was done prior to January 10, 2011, two weeks prior 15 to the passage of Senate Bill 14. 16 "QUESTION: 17 in Exhibit 41 relating to voter ID? 18 "ANSWER: 19 oppose requiring a valid photo ID before a person is 20 allowed to vote?' 21 "QUESTION: 22 percentages in support? 23 "ANSWER: 24 percent; Hispanic, 83 percent. 25 "QUESTION: And that is information you had and And this was July '08, so this was actually And the Okay. So let's turn over to Exhibit 41. Okay. What is that document? That is the Lighthouse opinion poll that And did it ask -- was there information It was a question asked, 'Do you favor or And what were the breakdown of the White, 86 percent; African-American, 82 And to your knowledge, who was provided EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 401 1 that information in the poll that is contained in 2 Exhibit 41 in the Texas Legislature? 3 "ANSWER: 4 landscape benchmark survey and it was provided to the 5 public. 6 information when I laid out Senate Bill 14. 7 "QUESTION: 8 had that information contained in Exhibit 41? 9 "ANSWER: This was a public poll, a statewide Do you have -- I had access -- I had this Do you know if any other state Senators It's likely that probably all 31 had this. 10 "QUESTION: Did you attempt to share these studies 11 with your colleagues in the Senate? 12 "ANSWER: 13 "QUESTION: 14 "ANSWER: 15 "QUESTION: 16 both proponents and opponents? 17 "ANSWER: 18 additional reference on this, actually. 19 laying out of the bill in 2007, Senator Zaffirini had 20 noticed that I had a huge book with all of this in 21 there, and she asked to see it. 22 to her, but I made sure that she was aware of all the 23 things I had in the book pertaining to these, that 24 they had received. 25 "QUESTION: Yes, I did. Prior to the passage of SB 14? Yes, I did. And were they made freely available to Yes. And I would like to make an During the I not only gave it Let me hand you what's been marked as EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 402 Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Direct 1 Exhibit 45 to your deposition. 2 "ANSWER: 3 "QUESTION: 4 "ANSWER: 5 "QUESTION: 6 "ANSWER: 7 Texas in which we received in February of 2011, the 8 poll actually was taken in December of 2010. 9 a follow-up to the 2008 poll of basically asking the Yeah. Have you ever seen that document? Yes, I have. What is it? It was a poll done by the University of It was 10 same questions saying, 'Do you agree or disagree that 11 registered voters should be required to present a 12 government issued photo ID before they can be allowed 13 to vote?' 14 agreed. 15 was broadly agreed to even among Democrats and 16 Republicans and that if you looked at the racial 17 makeup of who agreed with this, 80 percent of Anglos 18 agreed, 63 percent of African-Americans agreed and 19 68 percent of Latinos. 20 increased in that two-year period. 21 "QUESTION: 22 possession prior to the passage of SB 14? 23 "ANSWER: 24 all 31 members." 25 // Of the people that they polled, 75 percent The racial makeup of the poll showed that it The Latino number actually And did you -- and you had that in your Yes, I did. And I made this available to EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 403 Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 2 MS. DEASON: That concludes Defendants' readings from Senator Fraser's depo. 3 THE COURT: 4 MS. FARANSSO: 5 Texas League. 6 Fraser. Okay. And Lynn Eisenberg will be reading for Senator May I approach? 7 THE COURT: 8 MS. FARANSSO: 9 10 Your Honor, Tanya Faransso for the Yes. And we'll be reading first from Senator Fraser's deposition in the Section Five litigation dated May 17th, 2012. 11 EXAMINATION OF TROY FRASER BY EXCERPTS OF DEPOSITION TESTIMONY 12 (QUESTIONS READ BY MS. FARANSSO; ANSWERS READ BY MS. EISENBERG) 13 "QUESTION: Good morning, Senator Fraser. Could you 14 state and spell your name for the record, please? 15 "ANSWER: 16 "QUESTION: 17 Voting Rights Act is important? 18 "ANSWER: 19 was important. 20 has outlived its useful life. 21 "QUESTION: 22 do you mean by that, 'outlived its useful life'? 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 determining how to verify the identity of a voter Troy Fraser, F-r-a-s-e-r. Do you believe that compliance with the I believe when the Act was passed in '65 it I believe today the Voting Rights Act When do you believe -- first of all, what I believe it's outlived its useful life. What is Texas' current system for EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 404 1 before section -- before SB 14 was enacted? 2 "ANSWER: 3 show your -- your voter registration card that is 4 sent by -- in the mail to people, and whoever has 5 that card in their possession can walk up and vote. 6 "QUESTION: 7 fraud, in your view? 8 "ANSWER: 9 "QUESTION: The only requirement Texas has that if you Has this system failed to prevent voter No. Okay. Senator, do you know what a 10 citizenship certificate is? 11 "ANSWER: 12 "QUESTION: 13 "ANSWER: 14 "QUESTION: 15 obtain a citizenship certificate? 16 "ANSWER: 17 "QUESTION: 18 U.S. passport? 19 "ANSWER: 20 "QUESTION: 21 to provide to get a U.S. passport? 22 "ANSWER: 23 "QUESTION: 24 certificate? 25 "ANSWER: No. Is it a form of ID in Senate Bill 14? Yes. Do you have any idea how much it cost to No. Do you know how much it cost to obtain a No. Do you know what documents you would have I believe a birth certificate. And anything else besides a birth Not to my knowledge. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 405 1 "QUESTION: Do you know how long it takes to obtain a 2 passport? 3 "ANSWER: 4 "QUESTION: 5 the documents necessary to get an election 6 identification certificate under Senate Bill 14 and 7 associated regulations? 8 "ANSWER: 9 "QUESTION: No. Do you know how much it costs to obtain No. And if the documents needed to get the 10 election identification certificate are not 11 themselves free, is there a cost associated with 12 obtaining an election identification certificate? 13 "ANSWER: 14 "QUESTION: 15 identification certificate? 16 "ANSWER: 17 "QUESTION: 18 "ANSWER: 19 MS. FARANSSO: I don't know. Where does one obtain an election I don't know. And when are those offices open? I don't know." Your Honor, we'll now move on to 20 Senator Fraser's deposition on July 23rd, 2014 in this 21 litigation. 22 "QUESTION: 23 been marked as Exhibit 6." 24 MS. FARANSSO: 25 Senator, you've just been handed what has For the record that's Plaintiffs' Exhibit 231. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 406 Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "QUESTION: Do you recognize this document? 2 "ANSWER: 3 office. 4 "QUESTION: 5 document for you? 6 "ANSWER: : 7 by my chief of staff, Janice McCoy. 8 "QUESTION: 9 and put your name on as the author? It appears to be a press release from my Do you know who would have drafted this Most of my press at this time was drafted Would you have reviewed what she drafted 10 "ANSWER: 11 "QUESTION: 12 back at Exhibit 6, please?" 13 MS. FARANSSO: 14 Yes. If you don't mind, could you just look And again, that's Plaintiffs' Exhibit 231. 15 "QUESTION: And turn to the second page, that back 16 page, the back of the first page there. 17 at the third paragraph of that page, which is the 18 second full paragraph, it reads: 19 'So I'm offering Texas voters new protections that 20 will prevent fraud at the ballot box. 21 importantly, the legislation I filed will not send 22 anyone away from the polling place without being able 23 to cast their ballot. 24 voters to show either one form of photo 25 identification or two other forms of non-photo If you look But Senate Bill 362 will require EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 407 1 identification. The non-photo identification can be 2 a utility bill, mail from a government entity or even 3 a library card. 4 acceptable forms of identification will still be 5 allowed to cast a provisional ballot. 6 the rhetoric some might hear from the opposition, let 7 me be clear: No eligible voter will walk away from a 8 polling location without being able to cast their 9 ballot.' And voters who cannot produce So despite all 10 "Do you recall this text? 11 "ANSWER: 12 "QUESTION: 13 at the time? 14 "ANSWER: 15 "QUESTION: 16 bill in the Senate on November 8th, 2010, and that it 17 received the bill number of Senate Bill 178? 18 "ANSWER: 19 "QUESTION: 20 receive the bill number Senate Bill l4? 21 "ANSWER: 22 "QUESTION: 23 request of the Lieutenant Governor? 24 "ANSWER: 25 "QUESTION: Yes. And did you agree with these statements Yes. Do you recall that you filed a voter ID Yes. And when that bill was re-filed did it Yes. And did you re-file that bill at the Yes. Okay. Thank you. Does the Lieutenant EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 408 1 Governor reserve lower bill numbers for legislative 2 priorities? 3 "ANSWER: 4 "QUESTION: 5 Bill 14; is that right? 6 "ANSWER: 7 "QUESTION: 8 Bill 14 was intended to combat only in-person voter 9 fraud, correct? Yes. Thank you. You were the author of Senate Yes. The photo ID requirement in Senate 10 "ANSWER: Yes. 11 "QUESTION: 12 you've been referring to show or demonstrate that 13 allowing non-photo identification would result in 14 incidents of in-person voter fraud? 15 "ANSWER: 16 that the -- the best way to ensure the integrity of 17 the ballot box, to make sure the person was who 18 they -- you know, who they said they were, was to 19 have a photo ID. 20 "QUESTION: 21 "ANSWER: 22 asking the public if they thought that it was, you 23 know, the best way. 24 "QUESTION: 25 inclusion of non-photo ID would result in in-person Did any of the testimony or research that The answer is that the information we found And what was that information? Testimony from the public and polling of So your basis for thinking about the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 409 Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 voter fraud were polls asking the public what they 2 thought about voter ID? 3 "ANSWER: 4 "QUESTION: 5 "ANSWER: 6 yes at all. 7 of a compound question, you know, -- the public, when 8 asked, do you think that the ballot box, integrity of 9 the ballot box would be improved by having a strict You're answering your own question. So that's a yes? You want to ask that -- no, that's not a If you want to ask me a question instead 10 photo ID, the answer was an overwhelming yes. In 11 some cases, as high as 88 percent. 12 "QUESTION: 13 clarified that set of identification because you 14 thought that that would be for the ease of the 15 voters, correct? 16 "ANSWER: 17 "QUESTION: 18 why would it be easier on voters to have a narrower 19 set of identification? 20 "ANSWER: 21 what an acceptable form of ID would be. 22 "QUESTION: 23 not possess one of the forms of identification 24 stipulated in Senate Bill l4? 25 "ANSWER: You mentioned that Senate Bill 14 And poll workers. And poll workers. Specific to voters, It's clear whenever they go in to vote of Would it be easier for a voter who did It would be clear to that voter. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 410 1 "QUESTION: It would be clear to that voter that they 2 did not possess that form of identification? 3 "ANSWER: 4 identification are acceptable. 5 "QUESTION: 6 cast a vote? 7 "ANSWER: 8 someone's mind that I haven't met what is and is not. 9 That's subjective. It would be clear to them what forms of Would it be easier for that voter to then You're trying to make me determine what 10 "QUESTION: You mentioned the difficulty of 11 standardizing IDs from public -- from private 12 institutions of higher education. 13 consideration to standardizing ID from public 14 institutions of higher education in Texas? 15 "ANSWER: 16 Kinko's problem is that you could go there this 17 afternoon and make your own ID very, you know, easily 18 at Kinko's. 19 up with a very sophisticated process with the 20 driver's licenses with multiple things that cannot be 21 replicated and will keep people from either changing 22 or duplicating a Texas driver's license on an ID that 23 is issued by the Department of Public Safety. 24 "QUESTION: 25 and considering Senate Bill 14, were you aware of any Actually, we did. Did you give any But we get into the same We realize that the -- in Texas we came Senator, at the time you were drafting EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 411 1 instances in Texas when a -- where a forged student 2 ID had been used for in-person voter fraud? 3 "ANSWER: 4 that was not information we ever asked for. 5 "QUESTION: 6 information as to whether a student ID had been used 7 to commit in-person voter fraud in Texas? 8 "ANSWER: 9 know that it was ever asked. I'm not sure how to answer that because But just to confirm, you had no factual That testimony, to my knowledge, I don't 10 "QUESTION: Okay. Are you aware of any such 11 instances of student ID being used to commit voter 12 fraud anywhere in the country? 13 "ANSWER: 14 been delivered to me. 15 "QUESTION: 16 information with respect to Texas or other states, 17 correct? 18 "ANSWER: 19 we do IDs that could not be forged. 20 "QUESTION: 21 whether college students were more or less likely to 22 possess the forms of identification that were listed 23 in Senate Bill 14? 24 "ANSWER: 25 about who possessed driver's licenses, who had ID, I don't know that that information has ever Okay. No. And you did not ask for any such We were moving toward making sure that Did you conduct any analysis as to Actually, there was a lot of discussion EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 412 1 who had passports, who had concealed handgun permits. 2 And yes, it was discussion about the age of the 3 people and who had what. 4 actually the younger people were more likely to have 5 the -- all the forms of ID that could be used. 6 "QUESTION: 7 "ANSWER: 8 "QUESTION: 9 younger population break down the percentages of the And we determined that Did that -- And a student ID was not needed. Did that research that pertained to the 10 younger population that possessed ID by race? 11 "ANSWER: 12 "QUESTION: 13 receive any testimony that Texas driver's license or 14 personal identification cards cannot be replicated? 15 "ANSWER: 16 think anything in today's technology can be 17 replicated. 18 safeguards in our Texas driver's license of virtually 19 any state. 20 anything could be replicated. 21 "QUESTION: 22 vote in person rather than by mail? 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 travel a hundred miles round trip to obtain an EIC, To my knowledge not -- no. Did you -- did the Senate Committee The answer would be no on that, because I We believe that we have one of the most But in today's technology I suspect Are you aware that some voters prefer to Yes. Do you believe that if a voter had to EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 413 1 that that would impact their decision as to whether 2 to obtain an EIC? 3 "ANSWER: 4 chosen to live in remote areas, by choosing to live 5 there, they understand that they would have to travel 6 to receive groceries, food, water, driver's license 7 and the election identification. 8 "QUESTION: 9 in remote areas have decided to live in those remote Once again, people in Texas that have Do you believe that all people who live 10 areas by choice? 11 "ANSWER: 12 on anything, because there's probably exceptions to 13 every rule. 14 "QUESTION: 15 living in a remote area should impact one's right to 16 vote? 17 "ANSWER: 18 opportunities to vote if they either choose to get an 19 identification card. 20 they can vote by mail. 21 "QUESTION: 22 identification is not free if it costs money to 23 obtain the underlying documents required to obtain 24 that form of identification? 25 "ANSWER: I think -- I don't think you could say all And do you believe that the choice of Everyone in remote areas have the right and If they choose not to get one, Would you agree that a form of It's very clearly not free if it cost EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 414 1 money. But the state of Texas has done everything 2 they can to make it either free or as least expensive 3 as possible. 4 "QUESTION: 5 identification is not free if it costs money to 6 travel to obtain that form of identification for the 7 sole purpose of voting? 8 "ANSWER: 9 cost to travel. Would you agree that a form of Obviously, if you travel there, there is a 10 "QUESTION: Senator, do you recall during the debate 11 in the Committee of the Whole on SB 14 responding, 'I 12 am not advised to numerous questions'? 13 "ANSWER: 14 "QUESTION: 15 mean? 16 "ANSWER: 17 sufficient information to answer your question. 18 "QUESTION: 19 specifically, 'Will the elimination of the government 20 documents as a form of ID disproportionately affect 21 African Americans and Hispanics'? 22 "ANSWER: 23 was said, the paper says yes, that -- 24 "QUESTION: 25 accuracy of this transcription of the record? Yes. What does the answer 'I am not advised' It means that I don't have -- I do not have Do recall that Senator West asked you If this is an accurate indication of what Do you have any reason to doubt the EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 415 1 "ANSWER: No. 2 "QUESTION: 3 advised' to Senator West's question? 4 "ANSWER: 5 "QUESTION: 6 "ANSWER: 7 government documents would disproportionately affect 8 African Americans and Hispanic. 9 poll taken less than a week before that -- asking Do you see that you responded, 'I am not Yes. Why did you respond, 'I am not advised'? He asked me if the -- if the elimination of There had been a 10 Hispanics and African Americans if they were in favor 11 of the passage of a strict photo ID bill, and the 12 percentages were in the upper 80s; that they 13 responded that they were in favor of the passage of a 14 strict photo ID bill. 15 "QUESTION: 16 marked as Exhibit 20." 17 MS. FARANSSO: 18 So the answer is no. Senator, you've been handed what has been And for the record this is Plaintiffs' Exhibit 847. 19 "QUESTION: So does this appear to be the Senate 20 Journal from January 26, 2011? 21 "ANSWER: 22 "QUESTION: 23 record of events that occur on the Senate Floor? 24 "ANSWER: 25 "QUESTION: It does. And is the Senate Journal essentially a Yes. Senate Bill 14 did not include a EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 416 1 provision requiring a free birth certificate did it? 2 "ANSWER: 3 "QUESTION: 4 same purpose, correct? 5 "ANSWER: 6 the voting box. 7 "QUESTION: 8 included in the previous versions of the voter ID 9 legislation, correct? No. HB 218, SB 362 and SB 14 all served the The purpose was to protect the integrity of And these were forms of ID that were 10 "ANSWER: 11 "QUESTION: 12 "ANSWER: 13 "QUESTION: 14 unacceptable? 15 "ANSWER: 16 good starting point and that in the process I wanted 17 to correct that. 18 identification, yes. 19 "QUESTION: 20 find to be unacceptable? 21 "ANSWER: 22 "QUESTION: 23 page, Amendment 19." 24 MS. FARANSSO: 25 They were unacceptable to me? At the time they were acceptable? Yes. And you sponsored a bill that you found I said that they were a starting point, a My goal was to change the forms of Do you typically sponsor bills that you Yes. If you could continue to look at the same And again, this is Plaintiffs' Exhibit 847. EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "QUESTION: 2 Senator Ellis, do you see that amendment? 3 "ANSWER: 4 "QUESTION: 5 allowed as an acceptable form of identification a 6 student ID card from a public university in Texas 7 that contained the person's photograph and has not 8 expired, correct? 9 "ANSWER: 417 Looking at Amendment 19 offered by Got it. Okay. Got it. Okay, yes. Okay. And this amendment would have Yes. 10 "QUESTION: Just to be clear, this amendment would 11 not have permitted student IDs from other states, 12 would it? 13 "ANSWER: 14 "QUESTION: 15 permitted students IDs from private institutions of 16 higher education in Texas, would it? 17 "ANSWER: 18 "QUESTION: 19 limited set of student ID cards from public 20 universities in Texas, correct? 21 "ANSWER: 22 "QUESTION: 23 that right? 24 "ANSWER: 25 "QUESTION: No. And this amendment would not have No. So this amendment would have allowed a Yes. And you moved to table this amendment; is Yes. Was it your belief that it would go -- EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 418 1 that the public legislative record would either go to 2 the Department of Justice or a three-judge panel as 3 part of the Section 5 review process? 4 "ANSWER: 5 two places. 6 "QUESTION: 7 sort of statements you made on the Senate Floor? 8 "ANSWER: 9 saying was part of a public record. I did believe that it would go one of the Did that make you consider how -- what I was aware that everything that I was 10 "QUESTION: I'd ask you again, do you believe that 11 adding IDs issued by the federal government, state 12 government or local government would have interfered 13 with the effectiveness of Senate Bill 14? 14 "ANSWER: 15 as effective because we believed we needed to 16 implement a clear photo ID bill. 17 "QUESTION: 18 are secure? 19 "ANSWER: 20 "QUESTION: 21 IDs encrypt the fingerprint of the cardholder into 22 the card? 23 "ANSWER: 24 "QUESTION: 25 federal ID employee IDs are more secure than state- I do not believe the bill would have been Do you believe that federal employee IDs I'm sorry, I don't know. Do you know whether some federal employee I do not know that. Do you believe or know whether some EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 419 Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 issued forms of photo ID? 2 "ANSWER: 3 "QUESTION: 4 vote in an election due to concerns about ineligible 5 voters participating in elections? 6 "ANSWER: 7 "QUESTION: 8 Public Safety had issued regulations requiring 9 applicants for an EIC to give their fingerprints to I do not know that. Are you aware of any voter who did not No. Were you aware that the Department of 10 the DPS in order to get an EIC? 11 "ANSWER: 12 "QUESTION: 13 that kind or that degree of discretion to DPS? 14 "ANSWER: 15 to develop the EIC. 16 "QUESTION: 17 an EIC to issue -- to give them their fingerprints, 18 is that in keeping with SB 14? 19 "ANSWER: 20 guidelines. 21 "QUESTION: 22 few exhibits that Mr. Scott examined you on. 23 is Exhibit Number 40 -- I'm sorry, Exhibit 45, 24 apologies. 25 MS. FARANSSO: No. Is that -- was SB 14 intended to give We gave broad authority under rule to DPS So if DPS says they want an applicant for We gave broad authority to DPS to develop Senator, I'd like to talk to you about a First It's the Texas Politics Poll. And for the record this is Plaintiffs' EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 420 Exhibit 251. 2 "QUESTION: Now, can you read what that first 3 question is? 4 Can you read that question, please? 5 "ANSWER: 6 voters should be required to present a government 7 issued photo ID before they can be allowed to vote?' 8 "QUESTION: 9 polls that you used as a basis to suggest that a It says, 'Do you agree or disagree?' 'Do you agree or disagree that registered And you said that this poll is one of the 10 photo ID requirement -- 11 "ANSWER: 12 reference of a poll that was taken. 13 "QUESTION: 14 issued ID' is? 15 "ANSWER: 16 question that is asked. 17 I read to you. 18 itself. 19 "QUESTION: 20 respondent to this poll interpreted the phrase 'a 21 government issued photo ID'; is that correct? 22 "ANSWER: 23 what someone that was asked a poll the way they 24 interpreted this. 25 "QUESTION: It was one of the polls that we did Does this poll define what a 'government In a poll the question that is asked is the They asked the question that The question I think speaks for And you don't know how any single It would be subjective for me to project So the answer is yes? EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 421 Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "ANSWER: 2 "QUESTION: 3 that Mr. Scott asked about? 4 MS. FARANSSO: 5 The answer is yes. Can you please turn to Exhibit Number 41 And for the record this is Plaintiffs' Exhibit 247 at Page 3. 6 "QUESTION: Do you see at the bottom where it says 7 photo -- Photo Voter ID Requirement? 8 "ANSWER: 9 "QUESTION: Uh-huh. And can you read that question, please? 10 "ANSWER: 'Do you favor or oppose requiring a valid 11 photo ID before a person is allowed to vote?' 12 "QUESTION: 13 this Lighthouse opinion poll? 14 "ANSWER: 15 "QUESTION: 16 absolutely no idea how any respondent to this poll 17 interpreted the phrase 'valid photo ID'? 18 "ANSWER: 19 guess what they -- I think the person had to rely on 20 the question on its face of what it said. 21 question that was asked. 22 "QUESTION: 23 person interpreted the phrase 'valid photo ID'? 24 "ANSWER: 25 other than the question speaks for itself. Is 'valid photo ID' defined anywhere in No. And is it fair to say that you have It would be subjective for me to in any way This is a So your answer is you do not know how any It would be impossible for me to do it EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC 422 Fraser / by excerpts of Deposition - Cross 1 "QUESTION: 2 how any person interpreted the word -- phrase 'valid 3 photo ID'? 4 "ANSWER: 5 itself and there's going to be no way for me to 6 interpret the way they interpreted it." 7 MS. FARANSSO: 8 9 10 11 12 So your answer is a yes, you don't know My answer is that the question speaks for Your Honor, that concludes the reading. THE COURT: All right. Shall we wrap up there? What do we have for tomorrow? MR. SCOTT: We have how many readings left? (Voices heard off the record) 13 MR. SCOTT: Almost 12. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. SCOTT: And then we have one more live witness, 16 your Honor. 17 and we'll attempt to even object if they get outside. 18 19 And it should be a very short one on the direct THE COURT: All right. see you in the morning. So we're good. You're excused. 20 (Counsel thank the Court) 21 (This proceeding was adjourned at 5:50 p.m.) 22 23 24 25 EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC Then we'll 423 CERTIFICATION I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from the electronic sound recording of the proceedings in the aboveentitled matter. September 11, 2014_ TONI HUDSON, TRANSCRIBER EXCEPTIONAL REPORTING SERVICES, INC