# 0 1 0 # # 0 " 0 C # 0 1 0 # # > 1 8 0 1 > 5 # *" D 6 1 # 1 7 0 1 0 1 0 E 0 # 1 # 1 D -9)9&?(, -8%, # 0 8 F # # F F 1 1 * * 20 0 F 6 E F 0 # 7 F F 899000 9 *1 9 * * ;1;))G++)( F F > 0 # F 0 0 F 0 F 9 1A # 1 F E F F # 1 0 E F E # 1 F E # F F 2 # F ' From: Folta, Kevin M. Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 07:54:08 EDT To: Keith Kloor, , Karl Haro von Mogel, CC: Kevin Folta, BCC: Subject: RE: this piece Attachments: I can clean that up. I was 18 hours in to my science day and crashing. One other note I thought about this AM... Pam Ronald uses the word "safe" in the colloquial way- no evidence of harm. Bartolotto uses it in a scientific context, meaning "incapable of harm". It is a really important distinction. AntiGM's weigh heavily on exploiting the conservative language of science to manipulate an audience. Kevin Kevin M. Folta Professor and Chairman Horticultural Sciences Department Plant Molecular and Cellular Biology Program and Plant Innovation Program University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 352-273-4812 “Don’t Do t t ell me m what a can’t ’ be b done. o Tell me what needs t o bee done, n and let me doo it .” – Nor man a Bor B laug. a Illumination (blog) http://kfolta.blogspot.com Twitter @kevinfolta From: Keith Kloor [keith.kloor@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 7:21 AM To: Karl Haro von Mogel Cc: Folta, Kevin M.; Kevin Folta Subject: Re: this piece This is great! Just a few concerns, because I would like to link to the doc in my post, for all to see your commentary. The comments don't align with passages/statements you are commenting on, so that can be hard to follow at times. There is also something that says "marked as resolved" and "resolved". Do you intend for that to be there. Thanks, Keith On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:49 PM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: Entered and shared via google drive! Check your gmail Kevin. On 8/5/2014 9:42 PM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I'm n. She's fucking goofy. Kevin M. Folta Professor and Chairman Horticultural Sciences Department Plant Molecular and Cellular Biology Program and Plant Innovation Program University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 352-273-4812 “Don’t tell me what can’t be done. Tell me what needs to be done, and let me do it.” – Norman Borlaug. Illumination (blog) http://kfolta.blogspot.com Twitter @kevinfolta ________________________________________ From: Karl Haro von Mogel [karl@inoculatedmind.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 10:38 PM To: Keith Kloor; Folta, Kevin M.; Kevin Folta Subject: Re: this piece Hi Keith, I would be happy to make a few comments on it, and perhaps if Kevin is interested, we could put in the comments on a Google doc and share the link with you. You might get more details, it would be somewhat of a conversation. If you are interested, Kevin, I can put it online and share it. An interesting thing to note about Carole Bartolotto: I'm sure you may recall that she was the dietitian booted off of an Academy of Nutrition and Dietietics panel for not disclosing conflicts of interest, and I overheard some anti-GMO activists talking amongst themselves (publicly, on facebook) that Carole was the creator of the facebook page that was impersonating Biology Fortified. I corroborated this with finding a post on the impersonation page that exactly matched a tweet of hers, including the same grammatical error. So she's certainly motivated to make claims about this topic, and apparently about other people. Karl On 8/5/2014 8:34 PM, Keith Kloor wrote: Karl, Kevin, I see that you both had a back-and-forth on Twitter with the author of this recent Huffington Post piece. (I had a most unpleasant exchange with her, myself.) http://www huffingtonpost.com/carole-bartolotto/have-genetically-modified_b_5597751 html Anyway, I plan to reference this piece to something else in an upcoming post and I sure would welcome your thoughts on the main claims made in the story. I would especially like it if you pointed out any passages/sentences that you objected to, because you deemed it contrary to the existing science. I could do it, but it's more meaningful when it comes from an expert. I can't explain any more at the moment, but if you'd like more context, happy to provide. Thanks, Keith From: Folta, Kevin M. Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 08:53:58 EDT To: Keith Kloor, CC: Karl Haro von Mogel, , Kevin Folta, BCC: Subject: Re: this piece Attachments: I'll be on it after 10 an est. Kevin ***** Sent from my phone. On Aug 6, 2014, at 8:03 AM, "Keith Kloor" wrote: Cool--thanks! On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 7:54 AM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I can clean that up. I was 18 hours in to my science day and crashing. One other note I thought about this AM... Pam Ronald uses the word "safe" in the colloquial way- no evidence of harm. Bartolotto uses it in a scientific context, meaning "incapable of harm". It is a really important distinction. AntiGM's weigh heavily on exploiting the conservative language of science to manipulate an audience. Kevin Kevin M. Folta Professor and Chairman Horticultural Sciences Department Plant Molecular and Cellular Biology Program and Plant Innovation Program University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 352-273-4812 “Don’t o ’t t ell me m what a can’t be done. e. Telll me what h needs eed t o be done, and a let me do itt .” – Norr man m Borr laug. l g Illumination (blog) http://kfolta.blogspot.com Twitter @kevinfolta From: Keith Kloor [keith.kloor@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 7:21 AM To: Karl Haro von Mogel Cc: Folta, Kevin M.; Kevin Folta Subject: Re: this piece This is great! Just a few concerns, because I would like to link to the doc in my post, for all to see your commentary. The comments don't align with passages/statements you are commenting on, so that can be hard to follow at times. There is also something that says "marked as resolved" and "resolved". Do you intend for that to be there. Thanks, Keith On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:49 PM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: Entered and shared via google drive! Check your gmail Kevin. On 8/5/2014 9:42 PM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I'm in. She's fucking goofy. Kevin M. Folta Professor and Chairman Horticultural Sciences Department Plant Molecular and Cellular Biology Program and Plant Innovation Program University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 352-273-4812 “Don’t tell me what can’t be done. Tell me what needs to be done, and let me do it.” – Norman Borlaug. Illumination (blog) http://kfolta.blogspot.com Twitter @kevinfolta ________________________________________ From: Karl Haro von Mogel [karl@inoculatedmind.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 10:38 PM To: Keith Kloor; Folta, Kevin M.; Kevin Folta Subject: Re: this piece Hi Keith, I would be happy to make a few comments on it, and perhaps if Kevin is interested, we could put in the comments on a Google doc and share the link with you. You might get more details, it would be somewhat of a conversation. If you are interested, Kevin, I can put it online and share it. An interesting thing to note about Carole Bartolotto: I'm sure you may recall that she was the dietitian booted off of an Academy of Nutrition and Dietietics panel for not disclosing conflicts of interest, and I overheard some anti-GMO activists talking amongst themselves (publicly, on facebook) that Carole was the creator of the facebook page that was impersonating Biology Fortified. I corroborated this with finding a post on the impersonation page that exactly matched a tweet of hers, including the same grammatical error. So she's certainly motivated to make claims about this topic, and apparently about other people. Karl On 8/5/2014 8:34 PM, Keith Kloor wrote: Karl, Kevin, I see that you both had a back-and-forth on Twitter with the author of this recent Huffington Post piece. (I had a most unpleasant exchange with her, myself.) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carole-bartolotto/have-genetically-modified_b_5597751 html Anyway, I plan to reference this piece to something else in an upcoming post and I sure would welcome your thoughts on the main claims made in the story. I would especially like it if you pointed out any passages/sentences that you objected to, because you deemed it contrary to the existing science. I could do it, but it's more meaningful when it comes from an expert. I can't explain any more at the moment, but if you'd like more context, happy to provide. Thanks, Keith From: Folta, Kevin M. Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 10:10:00 EDT To: Keith Kloor, , Karl Haro von Mogel, CC: BCC: Subject: RE: this piece Attachments: Absolutely. I will make all of those adjustments. I originally thought this was for your eyes only! I’m on it now, will do some nice tweaking. kevin From: Keith Kloor [mailto:keith.kloor@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 10:03 AM To: Karl Haro von Mogel Cc: Folta, Kevin M. Subject: Re: this piece Suggestions: "This is a worthless ad hominem argument" Delete "worthless" "argument from ignorance" Delete that--it doesn't add anything and just inflames Again, is there any way to align your comments with the highlighted section you are talking about? My advice: keep the language as neutral and judgement-free as possible. You're aiming for the fence-sitters, who may well be turned off by language that comes off as heavy-handed. Thanks, Keith On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: I'm on right now. Let me know inf the chat if there's anything that needs clarifying. Karl On 8/6/2014 8:22 AM, Keith Kloor wrote: Okay, great. I'm shooting to publish my post around 1pm EST, so that'll work. Thanks again, K On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:53 AM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I'll be on it after 10 an est. Kevin ***** Sent from my phone. On Aug 6, 2014, at 8:03 AM, "Keith Kloor" wrote: Cool--thanks! On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 7:54 AM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I can clean that up. I was 18 hours in to my science day and crashing. One other note I thought about this AM... Pam Ronald uses the word "safe" in the colloquial way- no evidence of harm. Bartolotto uses it in a scientific context, meaning "incapable of harm". It is a really important distinction. AntiGM's weigh heavily on exploiting the conservative language of science to manipulate an audience. Kevin Kevin M. Folta Professor and Chairman Horticultural Sciences Department Plant Molecular and Cellular Biology Program and Plant Innovation Program University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 352-273-4812 “Don’t tell me what can’t be done. Tell me what needs to be done, and let me do it.” – Norman Borlaug. Illumination (blog) http://kfolta.blogspot.com Twitter @kevinfolta From: Keith Kloor [keith.kloor@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 7:21 AM To: Karl Haro von Mogel Cc: Folta, Kevin M.; Kevin Folta Subject: Re: this piece This is great! Just a few concerns, because I would like to link to the doc in my post, for all to see your commentary. The comments don't align with passages/statements you are commenting on, so that can be hard to follow at times. There is also something that says "marked as resolved" and "resolved". Do you intend for that to be there. Thanks, Keith On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:49 PM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: Entered and shared via google drive! Check your gmail Kevin. On 8/5/2014 9:42 PM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I'm in. She's fucking goofy. Kevin M. Folta Professor and Chairman Horticultural Sciences Department Plant Molecular and Cellular Biology Program and Plant Innovation Program University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 352-273-4812 “Don’t tell me what can’t be done. Tell me what needs to be done, and let me do it.” – Norman Borlaug. Illumination (blog) http://kfolta.blogspot.com Twitter @kevinfolta ________________________________________ From: Karl Haro von Mogel [karl@inoculatedmind.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 10:38 PM To: Keith Kloor; Folta, Kevin M.; Kevin Folta Subject: Re: this piece Hi Keith, I would be happy to make a few comments on it, and perhaps if Kevin is interested, we could put in the comments on a Google doc and share the link with you. You might get more details, it would be somewhat of a conversation. If you are interested, Kevin, I can put it online and share it. An interesting thing to note about Carole Bartolotto: I'm sure you may recall that she was the dietitian booted off of an Academy of Nutrition and Dietietics panel for not disclosing conflicts of interest, and I overheard some anti-GMO activists ta king amongst themselves (publicly, on facebook) that Carole was the creator of the facebook page that was impersonating Biology Fortified. I corroborated this with finding a post on the impersonation page that exactly matched a tweet of hers, including the same grammatical error. So she's certainly motivated to make claims about this topic, and apparently about other people. Karl On 8/5/2014 8:34 PM, Keith Kloor wrote: Karl, Kevin, I see that you both had a back-and-forth on Twitter with the author of this recent Huff ngton Post piece. (I had a most unpleasant exchange with her, myself.) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carole-bartolotto/have-genetically-modified_b_5597751.html Anyway, I plan to reference this piece to something else in an upcoming post and I sure would welcome your thoughts on the main claims made in the story. I would especially like it if you pointed out any passages/sentences that you objected to, because you deemed it contrary to the existing science. I could do it, but it's more meaningful when it comes from an expert. I can't explain any more at the moment, but if you'd like more context, happy to provide. Thanks, Keith From: Folta, Kevin M. Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 10:58:00 EDT To: Karl Haro von Mogel, , Keith Kloor, CC: BCC: Subject: RE: this piece Attachments: I’m done too. Off to write science crap so it can get published in 2014. kf From: Karl Haro von Mogel [mailto:karl@inoculatedmind.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 10:58 AM To: Keith Kloor Cc: Folta, Kevin M. Subject: Re: this piece I've got to go now, let us know what you think. I would be able to take a look in an hour (12 pm your time) if any changes need to be made. Here is the link to the page for people on the outside to see it: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-sind0gP2anQbSOOtE u8d8MIF2JvbQaRYePuNU5c4/pub Karl On 8/6/2014 9:47 AM, Keith Kloor wrote: Okay, excellent. thx, K On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: Hi all, I just realized that the comments only show up for people who can edit the document. When published to the web, they are invisible. So maybe we should do them inline? We can add the substantial equivalence link in there. Karl On 8/6/2014 9:10 AM, Keith Kloor wrote: That should do it--just break up the piece itself, so the highlighted passages line up with your comments. Also, in my post, I wanted to make mention of the "substantial equivalence concept" and this 2002 statement from the Society of Toxicology. http://www.toxicology.org/ai/gm/gm_food.asp Or that too dated? I really think that concept should be better known. What do you guys think? K On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 10:06 AM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: Ok, I'll make some edits in that manner. I'm not sure how to line up comments except by providing more spaces between the paragraphs. Karl On 8/6/2014 9:03 AM, Keith Kloor wrote: Suggestions: "This is a worthless ad hominem argument" Delete "worthless" "argument from ignorance" Delete that--it doesn't add anything and just inflames Again, is there any way to align your comments with the highlighted section you are talking about? My advice: keep the language as neutral and judgement-free as possible. You're aiming for the fence-sitters, who may well be turned off by language that comes off as heavy-handed. Thanks, Keith On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: I'm on right now. Let me know inf the chat if there's anything that needs clarifying. Karl On 8/6/2014 8:22 AM, Keith Kloor wrote: Okay, great. I'm shooting to publish my post around 1pm EST, so that'll work. Thanks again, K On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:53 AM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I'll be on it after 10 an est. Kevin ***** Sent from my phone. On Aug 6, 2014, at 8:03 AM, "Keith Kloor" wrote: Cool--thanks! On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 7:54 AM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I can clean that up. I was 18 hours in to my science day and crashing. One other note I thought about this AM... Pam Ronald uses the word "safe" in the colloquial way- no evidence of harm. Bartolotto uses it in a scientific context, meaning "incapable of harm". It is a really important distinction. AntiGM's weigh heavily on exploiting the conservative language of science to manipulate an audience. Kevin Kevin M. Folta Professor and Chairman Horticultural Sciences Department Plant Molecular and Cellular Biology Program and Plant Innovation Program University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 352-273-4812 “Don’t tell me what can’t be done. Tell me what needs to be done, and let me do it.” – Norman Borlaug. Illumination (blog) http://kfolta.blogspot.com Twitter @kevinfolta From: Keith Kloor [keith.kloor@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 7:21 AM To: Karl Haro von Mogel Cc: Folta, Kevin M.; Kevin Folta Subject: Re: this piece This is great! Just a few concerns, because I would like to link to the doc in my post, for all to see your commentary. The comments don't align with passages/statements you are commenting on, so that can be hard to follow at times. There is also something that says "marked as resolved" and "resolved". Do you intend for that to be there. Thanks, Keith On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:49 PM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: Entered and shared via google drive! Check your gmail Kevin. On 8/5/2014 9:42 PM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I'm in. She's fucking goofy. Kevin M. Folta Professor and Chairman Horticultural Sciences Department Plant Molecular and Cellular Biology Program and Plant Innovation Program University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 352-273-4812 “Don’t tell me what can’t be done. Tell me what needs to be done, and let me do it.” – Norman Borlaug. Illumination (blog) http://kfolta.blogspot.com Twitter @kevinfolta ________________________________________ From: Karl Haro von Mogel [karl@inoculatedmind.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 10:38 PM To: Keith Kloor; Folta, Kevin M.; Kevin Folta Subject: Re: this piece Hi Keith, I would be happy to make a few comments on it, and perhaps if Kevin is interested, we could put in the comments on a Google doc and share the link with you. You might get more details, it would be somewhat of a conversation. If you are interested, Kevin, I can put it online and share it. An interesting thing to note about Carole Bartolotto: I'm sure you may recall that she was the dietitian booted off of an Academy of Nutrition and Dietietics panel for not disclosing conflicts of interest, and I overheard some anti-GMO activists ta king amongst themselves (publicly, on facebook) that Carole was the creator of the facebook page that was impersonating Biology Fortified. I corroborated this with finding a post on the impersonation page that exactly matched a tweet of hers, including the same grammatical error. So she's certainly motivated to make claims about this topic, and apparently about other people. Karl On 8/5/2014 8:34 PM, Keith Kloor wrote: Karl, Kevin, I see that you both had a back-and-forth on Twitter with the author of this recent Huffington Post piece. (I had a most unpleasant exchange with her, myself.) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carole-bartolotto/have-geneticallymodified_b_5597751.html Anyway, I plan to reference this piece to something else in an upcoming post and I sure would welcome your thoughts on the main claims made in the story. I would especially like it if you pointed out any passages/sentences that you objected to, because you deemed it contrary to the existing science. I could do it, but it's more meaningful when it comes from an expert. I can't explain any more at the moment, but if you'd like more context, happy to provide. Thanks, Keith From: Folta, Kevin M. Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 12:23:00 EDT To: Keith Kloor, CC: BCC: Subject: RE: this piece Attachments: Nah, go ahead and cut it. I’m flying through this stuff today. From: Keith Kloor [mailto:keith.kloor@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:12 AM To: Folta, Kevin M. Cc: Karl Haro von Mogel Subject: Re: this piece Kevin, I was scratching my head at your last line: "It is interesting that even Conversion Disorder can be traced back to a common rumor or news piece!" Maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet, but do you really want to end on this note? K On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Keith Kloor wrote: Looks great at first read. Can you both just let me know how I should identify you in bios. Thanks for your time on this. Best, Keith On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 10:58 AM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I’m done too. Off to write science crap so it can get published in 2014. kf From: Karl Haro von Mogel [mailto:karl@inoculatedmind.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 10:58 AM To: Keith Kloor Cc: Folta, Kevin M. Subject: Re: this piece I've got to go now, let us know what you think. I would be able to take a look in an hour (12 pm your time) if any changes need to be made. Here is the link to the page for people on the outside to see it: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-sind0gP2anQbSOOtE u8d8MIF2JvbQaRYePuNU5c4/pub Karl On 8/6/2014 9:47 AM, Keith Kloor wrote: Okay, excellent. thx, K On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: Hi all, I just realized that the comments only show up for people who can edit the document. When published to the web, they are invisible. So maybe we should do them inline? We can add the substantial equivalence link in there. Karl On 8/6/2014 9:10 AM, Keith Kloor wrote: That should do it--just break up the piece itself, so the highlighted passages line up with your comments. Also, in my post, I wanted to make mention of the "substantial equivalence concept" and this 2002 statement from the Society of Toxicology. http://www.toxicology.org/ai/gm/gm food.asp Or that too dated? I really think that concept should be better known. What do you guys think? K On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 10:06 AM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: Ok, I'll make some edits in that manner. I'm not sure how to line up comments except by providing more spaces between the paragraphs. Karl On 8/6/2014 9:03 AM, Keith Kloor wrote: Suggestions: "This is a worthless ad hominem argument" Delete "worthless" "argument from ignorance" Delete that--it doesn't add anything and just inflames Again, is there any way to align your comments with the highlighted section you are talking about? My advice: keep the language as neutral and judgement-free as possible. You're aiming for the fence-sitters, who may well be turned off by language that comes off as heavy-handed. Thanks, Keith On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: I'm on right now. Let me know inf the chat if there's anything that needs clarifying. Karl On 8/6/2014 8:22 AM, Keith Kloor wrote: Okay, great. I'm shooting to publish my post around 1pm EST, so that'll work. Thanks again, K On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:53 AM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I'll be on it after 10 an est. Kevin ***** Sent from my phone. On Aug 6, 2014, at 8:03 AM, "Keith Kloor" wrote: Cool--thanks! On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 7:54 AM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I can clean that up. I was 18 hours in to my science day and crashing. One other note I thought about this AM... Pam Ronald uses the word "safe" in the colloquial way- no evidence of harm. Bartolotto uses it in a scientific context, meaning "incapable of harm". It is a really important distinction. AntiGM's weigh heavily on exploiting the conservative language of science to manipulate an audience. Kevin Kevin M. Folta Professor and Chairman Horticultural Sciences Department Plant Molecular and Cellular Biology Program and Plant Innovation Program University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 352-273-4812 “Don’t tell me what can’t be done. Tell me what needs to be done, and let me do it.” – Norman Borlaug. Illumination (blog) http://kfolta.blogspot.com Twitter @kevinfolta From: Keith Kloor [keith.kloor@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 7:21 AM To: Karl Haro von Mogel Cc: Folta, Kevin M.; Kevin Folta Subject: Re: this piece This is great! Just a few concerns, because I would like to link to the doc in my post, for all to see your commentary. The comments don't align with passages/statements you are commenting on, so that can be hard to follow at times. There is also something that says "marked as resolved" and "resolved". Do you intend for that to be there. Thanks, Keith On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:49 PM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: Entered and shared via google drive! Check your gmail Kevin. On 8/5/2014 9:42 PM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I'm in. She's fucking goofy. Kevin M. Folta Professor and Chairman Horticultural Sciences Department Plant Molecular and Cellular Biology Program and Plant Innovation Program University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 352-273-4812 “Don’t tell me what can’t be done. Tell me what needs to be done, and let me do it.” – Norman Borlaug. Illumination (blog) http://kfolta.blogspot.com Twitter @kevinfolta ________________________________________ From: Karl Haro von Mogel [karl@inoculatedmind.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 10:38 PM To: Keith Kloor; Folta, Kevin M.; Kevin Folta Subject: Re: this piece Hi Keith, I would be happy to make a few comments on it, and perhaps if Kevin is interested, we could put in the comments on a Google doc and share the link with you. You might get more details, it would be somewhat of a conversation. If you are interested, Kevin, I can put it online and share it. An interesting thing to note about Carole Bartolotto: I'm sure you may recall that she was the dietitian booted off of an Academy of Nutrition and Dietietics panel for not disclosing conflicts of interest, and I overheard some anti-GMO activists ta king amongst themselves (publicly, on facebook) that Carole was the creator of the facebook page that was impersonating Biology Fortified. I corroborated this with finding a post on the impersonation page that exactly matched a tweet of hers, including the same grammatical error. So she's certainly motivated to make claims about this topic, and apparently about other people. Karl On 8/5/2014 8:34 PM, Keith Kloor wrote: Karl, Kevin, I see that you both had a back-and-forth on Twitter with the author of this recent Huffington Post piece. (I had a most unpleasant exchange with her, myself.) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carole-bartolotto/have-geneticallymodified_b_5597751.html Anyway, I plan to reference this piece to something else in an upcoming post and I sure would welcome your thoughts on the main claims made in the story. I would especially like it if you pointed out any passages/sentences that you objected to, because you deemed it contrary to the existing science. I could do it, but it's more meaningful when it comes from an expert. I can't explain any more at the moment, but if you'd like more context, happy to provide. Thanks, Keith From: Folta, Kevin M. Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 12:26:00 EDT To: Keith Kloor, CC: BCC: Subject: RE: this piece Attachments: I’m just Professor and Chairman, Horticultural Sciences Department, University of Florida. If you link kfolta.blogspot.com that would be nice, or @kevinfolta From: Keith Kloor [mailto:keith.kloor@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 12:23 PM To: Karl Haro von Mogel Cc: Folta, Kevin M. Subject: Re: this piece No other professional associations. Aren't you at USDA? On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 12:20 PM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: Hi Keith, Please identify me as Karl Haro von Mogel, Ph.D., Chair and co-Director of Biology Fortified, Inc. Do you need any more info than that? Karl On 8/6/2014 10:03 AM, Keith Kloor wrote: Looks great at first read. Can you both just let me know how I should identify you in bios. Thanks for your time on this. Best, Keith On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 10:58 AM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I’m done too. Off to write science crap so it can get published in 2014. kf From: Karl Haro von Mogel [mailto:karl@inoculatedmind.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 10:58 AM To: Keith Kloor Cc: Folta, Kevin M. Subject: Re: this piece I've got to go now, let us know what you think. I would be able to take a look in an hour (12 pm your time) if any changes need to be made. Here is the link to the page for people on the outside to see it: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-sind0gP2anQbSOOtE u8d8MIF2JvbQaRYePuNU5c4/pub Karl On 8/6/2014 9:47 AM, Keith Kloor wrote: Okay, excellent. thx, K On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: Hi all, I just realized that the comments only show up for people who can edit the document. When published to the web, they are invisible. So maybe we should do them inline? We can add the substantial equivalence link in there. Karl On 8/6/2014 9:10 AM, Keith Kloor wrote: That should do it--just break up the piece itself, so the highlighted passages line up with your comments. Also, in my post, I wanted to make mention of the "substantial equivalence concept" and this 2002 statement from the Society of Toxicology. http://www.toxicology.org/ai/gm/gm food.asp Or that too dated? I really think that concept should be better known. What do you guys think? K On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 10:06 AM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: Ok, I'll make some edits in that manner. I'm not sure how to line up comments except by providing more spaces between the paragraphs. Karl On 8/6/2014 9:03 AM, Keith Kloor wrote: Suggestions: "This is a worthless ad hominem argument" Delete "worthless" "argument from ignorance" Delete that--it doesn't add anything and just inflames Again, is there any way to align your comments with the highlighted section you are talking about? My advice: keep the language as neutral and judgement-free as possible. You're aiming for the fence-sitters, who may well be turned off by language that comes off as heavy-handed. Thanks, Keith On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: I'm on right now. Let me know inf the chat if there's anything that needs clarifying. Karl On 8/6/2014 8:22 AM, Keith Kloor wrote: Okay, great. I'm shooting to publish my post around 1pm EST, so that'll work. Thanks again, K On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:53 AM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I'll be on it after 10 an est. Kevin ***** Sent from my phone. On Aug 6, 2014, at 8:03 AM, "Keith Kloor" wrote: Cool--thanks! On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 7:54 AM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I can clean that up. I was 18 hours in to my science day and crashing. One other note I thought about this AM... Pam Ronald uses the word "safe" in the colloquial way- no evidence of harm. Bartolotto uses it in a scientific context, meaning "incapable of harm". It is a really important distinction. AntiGM's weigh heavily on exploiting the conservative language of science to manipulate an audience. Kevin Kevin M. Folta Professor and Chairman Horticultural Sciences Department Plant Molecular and Cellular Biology Program and Plant Innovation Program University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 352-273-4812 “Don’t tell me what can’t be done. Tell me what needs to be done, and let me do it.” – Norman Borlaug. Illumination (blog) http://kfolta.blogspot.com Twitter @kevinfolta From: Keith Kloor [keith.kloor@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 7:21 AM To: Karl Haro von Mogel Cc: Folta, Kevin M.; Kevin Folta Subject: Re: this piece This is great! Just a few concerns, because I would like to link to the doc in my post, for all to see your commentary. The comments don't align with passages/statements you are commenting on, so that can be hard to follow at times. There is also something that says "marked as resolved" and "resolved". Do you intend for that to be there. Thanks, Keith On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:49 PM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: Entered and shared via google drive! Check your gmail Kevin. On 8/5/2014 9:42 PM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I'm in. She's fucking goofy. Kevin M. Folta Professor and Chairman Horticultural Sciences Department Plant Molecular and Cellular Biology Program and Plant Innovation Program University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 352-273-4812 “Don’t tell me what can’t be done. Tell me what needs to be done, and let me do it.” – Norman Borlaug. Illumination (blog) http://kfolta.blogspot.com Twitter @kevinfolta ________________________________________ From: Karl Haro von Mogel [karl@inoculatedmind.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 10:38 PM To: Keith Kloor; Folta, Kevin M.; Kevin Folta Subject: Re: this piece Hi Keith, I would be happy to make a few comments on it, and perhaps if Kevin is interested, we could put in the comments on a Google doc and share the link with you. You might get more details, it would be somewhat of a conversation. If you are interested, Kevin, I can put it online and share it. An interesting thing to note about Carole Bartolotto: I'm sure you may recall that she was the dietitian booted off of an Academy of Nutrition and Dietietics panel for not disclosing conflicts of interest, and I overheard some anti-GMO activists ta king amongst themselves (publicly, on facebook) that Carole was the creator of the facebook page that was impersonating Biology Fortified. I corroborated this with finding a post on the impersonation page that exactly matched a tweet of hers, including the same grammatical error. So she's certainly motivated to make claims about this topic, and apparently about other people. Karl On 8/5/2014 8:34 PM, Keith Kloor wrote: Karl, Kevin, I see that you both had a back-and-forth on Twitter with the author of this recent Huffington Post piece. (I had a most unpleasant exchange with her, myself.) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carole-bartolotto/have-geneticallymodified b 5597751.html Anyway, I plan to reference this piece to something else in an upcoming post and I sure would welcome your thoughts on the main claims made in the story. I would especially like it if you pointed out any passages/sentences that you objected to, because you deemed it contrary to the existing science. I could do it, but it's more meaningful when it comes from an expert. I can't explain any more at the moment, but if you'd like more context, happy to provide. Thanks, Keith From: Folta, Kevin M. Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 19:51:18 EDT To: Keith Kloor, , Karl Haro von Mogel, CC: BCC: Subject: RE: post Attachments: No problem. Good luck keith. Kevin M. Folta Professor and Chairman Horticultural Sciences Department Plant Molecular and Cellular Biology Program and Plant Innovation Program University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 352-273-4812 “Don’t Do t t ell me m what a can’t ’ be b done. o Tell me what needs t o bee done, n and let me doo it .” – Nor man a Bor B laug. a Illumination (blog) http://kfolta.blogspot.com Twitter @kevinfolta From: Keith Kloor [keith.kloor@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 7:13 PM To: Folta, Kevin M.; Karl Haro von Mogel Subject: post Hey guys, it'll be up first thing tomorrow AM. It's long and I want to make sure I proof it and not just hit the publish button after I finish writing. Better to let it sit overnight. Will you ping tomorrow. K From: Folta, Kevin M. Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 19:52:58 EDT To: Keith Kloor, CC: BCC: Subject: RE: post Attachments: I did have another thought. Instead of where it says, ...Bartolotto's scientific training... maybe change it to "someone's level of scientific training". This way it won't be personal and look like some kind of gang beating. That kind of thing could backfire. Kevin Kevin M. Folta Professor and Chairman Horticultural Sciences Department Plant Molecular and Cellular Biology Program and Plant Innovation Program University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 352-273-4812 “Don’t Do t t ell me m what a can’t ’ be b done. o Tell me what needs t o bee done, n and let me doo it .” – Nor man a Bor B laug. a Illumination (blog) http://kfolta.blogspot.com Twitter @kevinfolta From: Keith Kloor [keith.kloor@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 7:13 PM To: Folta, Kevin M.; Karl Haro von Mogel Subject: post Hey guys, it'll be up first thing tomorrow AM. It's long and I want to make sure I proof it and not just hit the publish button after I finish writing. Better to let it sit overnight. Will you ping tomorrow. K From: Folta, Kevin M. Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 10:59:00 EDT To: Keith Kloor, , Karl Haro von Mogel, CC: BCC: Subject: RE: this piece Attachments: Keith, This is fine, but maybe because it is criticizing someone for scientific precision, it could better be said as… Both pieces make claims that are contrary to scientific consensus. Bartolotto's article is a classic ex ample of Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. It is a fallacious construct that is, as the two scientific rev iewers note abov e, at odds with the fundamental concept that science is based on empirical ev idence, not fear of our wildest suppositions. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 10:57 AM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: I've got to go now, let us know what you think. I would be able to take a look in an hour (12 pm your time) if any changes need to be made. Here is the link to the page for people on the outside to see it: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-sind0gP2anQbSOOtE__u8d8MIF2JvbQaRYePuNU5c4/pub Karl On 8/6/2014 9:47 AM, Keith Kloor wrote: Okay, excellent. thx, K On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: Hi all, I just realized that the comments only show up for people who can edit the document. When published to the web, they are invisible. So maybe we should do them inline? We can add the substantial equivalence link in there. Karl On 8/6/2014 9:10 AM, Keith Kloor wrote: That should do it--just break up the piece itself, so the highlighted passages line up with your comments. Also, in my post, I wanted to make mention of the "substantial equivalence concept" and this 2002 statement from the Society of Toxicology. http://www.toxicology.org/ai/gm/gm food.asp Or that too dated? I really think that concept should be better known. What do you guys think? K On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 10:06 AM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: Ok, I'll make some edits in that manner. I'm not sure how to line up comments except by providing more spaces between the paragraphs. Karl On 8/6/2014 9:03 AM, Keith Kloor wrote: Suggestions: "This is a worthless ad hominem argument" Delete "worthless" "argument from ignorance" Delete that--it doesn't add anything and just inflames Again, is there any way to align your comments with the highlighted section you are talking about? My advice: keep the language as neutral and judgement-free as possible. You're aiming for the fence-sitters, who may well be turned off by language that comes off as heavy-handed. Thanks, Keith On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: I'm on right now. Let me know inf the chat if there's anything that needs clarifying. Karl On 8/6/2014 8:22 AM, Keith Kloor wrote: Okay, great. I'm shooting to publish my post around 1pm EST, so that'll work. Thanks again, K On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:53 AM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I'll be on it after 10 an est. Kevin ***** Sent from my phone. On Aug 6, 2014, at 8:03 AM, "Keith Kloor" wrote: Cool--thanks! On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 7:54 AM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I can clean that up. I was 18 hours in to my science day and crashing. One other note I thought about this AM... Pam Ronald uses the word "safe" in the colloquial way- no evidence of harm. Bartolotto uses it in a scientific context, meaning "incapable of harm". It is a really important distinction. AntiGM's weigh heavily on exploiting the conservative language of science to manipulate an audience. Kevin Kevin M. Folta Professor and Chairman Horticultural Sciences Department Plant Molecular and Cellular Biology Program and Plant Innovation Program University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 352-273-4812 “Don’t tell me what can’t be done. Tell me what needs to be done, and let me do it.” – Norman Borlaug. Illumination (blog) http://kfolta.blogspot.com Twitter @kevinfolta From: Keith Kloor [keith.kloor@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 7:21 AM To: Karl Haro von Mogel Cc: Folta, Kevin M.; Kevin Folta Subject: Re: this piece This is great! Just a few concerns, because I would like to link to the doc in my post, for all to see your commentary. The comments don't align with passages/statements you are commenting on, so that can be hard to follow at times. There is also something that says "marked as resolved" and "resolved". Do you intend for that to be there. Thanks, Keith On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:49 PM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: Entered and shared via google drive! Check your gmail Kevin. On 8/5/2014 9:42 PM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I'm in. She's fucking goofy. Kevin M. Folta Professor and Chairman Horticultural Sciences Department Plant Molecular and Cellular Biology Program and Plant Innovation Program University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 352-273-4812 “Don’t tell me what can’t be done. Tell me what needs to be done, and let me do it.” – Norman Borlaug. Illumination (blog) http://kfolta.blogspot.com Twitter @kevinfolta ________________________________________ From: Karl Haro von Mogel [karl@inoculatedmind.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 10:38 PM To: Keith Kloor; Folta, Kevin M.; Kevin Folta Subject: Re: this piece Hi Keith, I would be happy to make a few comments on it, and perhaps if Kevin is interested, we could put in the comments on a Google doc and share the link with you. You might get more details, it would be somewhat of a conversation. If you are interested, Kevin, I can put it online and share it. An interesting thing to note about Carole Bartolotto: I'm sure you may recall that she was the dietitian booted off of an Academy of Nutrition and Dietietics panel for not disclosing conflicts of interest, and I overheard some anti-GMO activists ta king amongst themselves (publicly, on facebook) that Carole was the creator of the facebook page that was impersonating Biology Fortified. I corroborated this with finding a post on the impersonation page that exactly matched a tweet of hers, including the same grammatical error. So she's certainly motivated to make claims about this topic, and apparently about other people. Karl On 8/5/2014 8:34 PM, Keith Kloor wrote: Karl, Kevin, I see that you both had a back-and-forth on Twitter with the author of this recent Huffington Post piece. (I had a most unpleasant exchange with her, myself.) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carole-bartolotto/have-geneticallymodified b 5597751.html Anyway, I plan to reference this piece to something else in an upcoming post and I sure would welcome your thoughts on the main claims made in the story. I would especially like it if you pointed out any passages/sentences that you objected to, because you deemed it contrary to the existing science. I could do it, but it's more meaningful when it comes from an expert. I can't explain any more at the moment, but if you'd like more context, happy to provide. Thanks, Keith From: Folta, Kevin M. Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 12:57:00 EDT To: Keith Kloor, , Karl Haro von Mogel, CC: BCC: Subject: RE: post Attachments: Let me see what I can do… call me Karl if you can. kf From: Keith Kloor [mailto:keith.kloor@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 12:33 PM To: Karl Haro von Mogel Cc: Folta, Kevin M. Subject: Re: post For some reason, I'm not seeing it, so hopefully Kevin will check his email soon and be able to do it. On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: OK I made the edits, but I can't seem to republish from my phone. Can one of you log in to the doc and publish it under the file menu? That way the changes will be seen on the public document. Karl Keith Kloor wrote: Karl, did you ever change that? See this email from Kevin: I did have another thought. Instead of where it says, ...Bartolotto's scientific training... maybe change it to "someone's level of scientific training". This way it won't be personal and look like some kind of gang beating. That kind of thing could backfire. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 7:52 PM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I did have another thought. Instead of where it says, ...Bartolotto's scientific training... maybe change it to "someone's level of scientific training". This way it won't be personal and look like some kind of gang beating. That kind of thing could backfire. Kevin Kevin M. Folta Professor and Chairman Horticultural Sciences Department Plant Molecular and Cellular Biology Program and Plant Innovation Program University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 352-273-4812 “Don’t tell me what can’t be done. Tell me what needs to be done, and let me do it.” – Norman Borlaug. Illumination (blog) http://kfolta.blogspot.com Twitter @kevinfolta From: Keith Kloor [keith.kloor@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 7:13 PM To: Folta, Kevin M.; Karl Haro von Mogel Subject: post Hey guys, it'll be up first thing tomorrow AM. It's long and I want to make sure I proof it and not just hit the publish button after I finish writing. Better to let it sit overnight. Will you ping tomorrow. K From: Folta, Kevin M. Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 14:46:00 EDT To: Keith Kloor, CC: BCC: Subject: RE: post Attachments: Take credit. It was just an editorial adjustment. kf From: Keith Kloor [mailto:keith.kloor@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 2:08 PM To: Karl Haro von Mogel Cc: Folta, Kevin M. Subject: Re: post Cool-and Kevin, I shuffled so much text around at the end that I neglected to put quote marks around comment. I like your re-wording of the sentence, but it's sufficiently changed from what I had that I don't feel comfortable taking credit for it. So I made that tweak On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 1:25 PM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: Keith, I called Kevin and we fixed it. Karl "Folta, Kevin M." wrote: Let me see what I can do… call me Karl if you can. kf From: Keith Kloor [mailto:keith.kloor@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 12:33 PM To: Karl Haro von Mogel Cc: Folta, Kevin M. Subject: Re: post For some reason, I'm not seeing it, so hopefully Kevin will check his email soon and be able to do it. On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Karl Haro von Mogel wrote: OK I made the edits, but I can't seem to republish from my phone. Can one of you log in to the doc and publish it under the file menu? That way the changes will be seen on the public document. Karl Keith Kloor wrote: Karl, did you ever change that? See this email from Kevin: I did have another thought. Instead of where it says, ...Bartolotto's scientific training... maybe change it to "someone's level of scientific training". This way it won't be personal and look like some kind of gang beating. That kind of thing could backfire. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 7:52 PM, Folta, Kevin M. wrote: I did have another thought. Instead of where it says, ...Bartolotto's scientific training... maybe change it to "someone's level of scientific training". This way it won't be personal and look like some kind of gang beating. That kind of thing could backfire. Kevin Kevin M. Folta Professor and Chairman Horticultural Sciences Department Plant Molecular and Cellular Biology Program and Plant Innovation Program University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 352-273-4812 “Don’t tell me what can’t be done. Tell me what needs to be done, and let me do it.” – Norman Borlaug. Illumination (blog) http://kfolta.blogspot.com Twitter @kevinfolta From: Keith Kloor [keith.kloor@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 7:13 PM To: Folta, Kevin M.; Karl Haro von Mogel Subject: post Hey guys, it'll be up first thing tomorrow AM. It's long and I want to make sure I proof it and not just hit the publish button after I finish writing. Better to let it sit overnight. Will you ping tomorrow. K