Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 1 of 144 437 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 FOR THE DISTRICT OF OREGON 3 PORTLAND DIVISION 4 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 5 6 7 8 9 ) ) Plaintiff, ) ) v. ) ) MOHAMED OSMAN MOHAMUD, ) ) Defendant. ) _________________________________) Case No. 3:10-CR-475-KI January 14, 2013 Portland, Oregon 10 11 12 13 TRIAL - DAY 3 14 AFTERNOON SESSION 15 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 16 BEFORE THE HONORABLE GARR M. KING 17 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT JUDGE 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 2 of 144 438 1 2 APPEARANCES FOR THE PLAINTIFF: Pamala R. Holsinger Ethan D. Knight Ryan W. Bounds Assistant United States Attorneys United States Attorney's Office 1000 SW Third Avenue Room 600 Portland, OR 97204 FOR THE DEFENDANT: Steven T. Wax Public Defender Stephen R. Sady Lisa Hay Deputy Public Defenders Federal Public Defender's Office 101 SW Main Suite 1700 Portland, OR 97204 ALSO PRESENT: Ryan Dwyer Susan Cooke Nicole Ciccarello COURT REPORTER: Jill L. Erwin, CSR, RMR, CRR Certified Realtime Reporter Registered Merit Reporter 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 United States District Courthouse 1000 SW Third Avenue, Room 301 Portland, OR 97204 19 (503)326-8191 20 21 22 23 24 25 * * * Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 3 of 144 439 1 2 INDEX PLAINTIFF'S WITNESSES: PAGE: 3 4 MILTIADIS TROUSAS 5 Cross-Examination by Mr. Sady 440 6 Redirect Examination by Mr. Knight 484 7 Recross-Examination by Mr. Sady 495 8 9 BRADFORD PETRIE 10 Direct Examination by Ms. Holsinger 497 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Sady 506 12 13 YOUSSEF 14 Direct Examination by Mr. Knight 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 535 Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 4 of 144 440 Trousas - X 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE CLERK: All rise. 3 THE COURT: Hello, everyone. Please be seated. 4 if we can have realtime working here. 5 something on here? 6 Okay. 7 Good afternoon. 8 Can you output We're okay now. We're ready to continue with the cross-examination by Mr. Sady. 9 Let me check and see MR. SADY: Mr. Sady? Thank you, Your Honor. 10 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. SADY: (Continuing) 13 Q. 14 Samir Khan? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. You testified that he was Pakistani American. 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. He was a United States citizen? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And he was a United States citizen throughout the time 21 that they were in communication with Mohamed in 2009? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. He was in the United States -- 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. -- during this entire time? Special Agent Trousas, can we return for a moment to Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 5 of 144 441 Trousas - X 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And after the time when the communication discontinued 3 he left the United States? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. He left the United States by airplane? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And he left the United States by airplane because he 8 wasn't on any kind of no-fly list? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And now if you could turn your attention to the 11 Beau Stuart email of January 2010 that you discussed. 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And Beau Stuart is a friend of yours from the mosque, 14 from your investigation? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. He was a convert to Islam? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. His father was a career FBI agent? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And he's expressed no alarm or concern regarding the 21 emails he received? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And going back to the email that you refer to on 24 January 24th, that was the end of a chain of emails, was it 25 not? Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 6 of 144 442 Trousas - X 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And the email chain started on December 23rd, 2009? 3 A. Sounds right. 4 Q. And in that first part of the chain, Beau Stuart was 5 writing to a group of his friends? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And in that email to a group of his friends, he was 8 basically saying that he had arrived in the Kingdom of Saudi 9 Arabia and was kind of giving everybody an update on what 10 was going on? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And rather than trying to summarize it, if you look at 13 the screen before you, does that appear to be the beginning 14 of the email chain? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Could you please read it out loud? 17 A. It has been three weeks now since I arrived in Kingdom 18 of Saudi Arabia, and there has been not much action to write 19 home about, but recent events have me excited to say that I 20 am on my way to Madinah. 21 Riyadh three weeks ago, I was informed that I would be going 22 to Jeddah to work at King Abdulaziz University, instead of 23 what they originally told me before I left the states. 24 flew to Jeddah and did not do much besides explore the 25 neighborhood and wait for my interview. Upon arriving at the airport in Yes, I was also So I Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 7 of 144 443 Trousas - X 1 informed that I would have to go through an interview 2 process with two senior administrators at King Abdulaziz 3 University prior to start working. 4 After a week and a half, I had my interview, and 5 another week after that it became clear that I did not meet 6 their qualifications, along with several other teachers. 7 In fact, they only hired two out of the six people they 8 interviewed that week from my company. 9 the rest of -- on our way to somewhere else. So the rest of -After a few 10 more days of waiting to see what my company was going to do 11 with me, I was informed that I would be going to Madinah 12 where I would have a better chance at getting hired. 13 Of course I will need to go through the interview 14 process at the university there, but I think things will go 15 smooth, and, with the help of Allah, I will secure the 16 position and start teaching very soon. 17 to Riyadh for an interview with yet another university. 18 am on a bus right now that is traveling to Madinah and my 19 time in Jeddah is now complete. 20 in Jeddah, including making umbra the first time, almost 21 being attacked by a German shepherd, traveling back and 22 forth between the sacred holy masjid located in Makkah and 23 built by none other than Alhambra, Prophet Abraham, and his 24 son. 25 weather in the world. Peace be upon him. Otherwise, it is off I A few highlights of my time And enjoying some of the finest I never saw any rain when I was here, Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 8 of 144 444 Trousas - X 1 but I did witness the effects of the flooding and poor 2 drainage systems that are within the infrastructure of the 3 city. 4 Getting back to the dog that wanted a piece of me, 5 apparently the 12-year-old boy accidentally let their big 6 guard dog escape. 7 came running around the corner of the street, it 8 instinctively tried to shake me down. 9 ground and the smell of my fear was not enough to make this 10 When the roaming animal saw me, as it Thankfully, I held my beautiful and healthy canine want to take a bite of me. 11 He gave me another series of mean barks and then split 12 in another direction with his giddy and half-frantic 13 12-year-old master trying his best to chase after him. 14 was quite a shock, and I was stunned, to say the least. 15 It In conclusion, I wish to send each of you the best of 16 greetings and will keep you posted on my adventures in 17 trying to get a job in Saudi Arabia. 18 ask Allah Azza wa Jalla to guide us all in the straight 19 path, amen. 20 Q. 21 truthbespoken email, truthbespoken email. Please pray for me and The following day there was a response from the 22 MR. KNIGHT: 23 THE COURT: Objection. Hearsay, Your Honor. He asked if there was a response. 24 hasn't asked for it to be read. 25 MR. KNIGHT: Yes. He Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 9 of 144 445 Trousas - X 1 THE COURT: 2 MR. SADY: Are you offering it? It's for the context of the ultimate 3 statement that under the rule of completeness and the state 4 of mind of the officer who said that he read this and relied 5 on it. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 objection. 8 BY MR. SADY: (Continuing) 9 Q. I'll sustain the Go ahead and sit down, Counsel. In response to that email, there was an email from the 10 email address of Mohamed Mohamud; is that correct? 11 A. Can I see that? 12 MR. SADY: 13 THE WITNESS: Would you please show the email? Yes. 14 BY MR. SADY: (Continuing) 15 Q. And that was on December 24th? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And in that email his first response is -- 18 MR. KNIGHT: 19 THE COURT: 20 this point. 21 admitted? 22 23 24 25 Objection. Hearsay. He hasn't asked him what he said at He asked if he responds. MR. SADY: Has this email been This is email that was provided in discovery. THE COURT: Well, I -- I understand that. been through this, Counsel. We've That's -- this is an email sent Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 10 of 144 446 Trousas - X 1 by the defendant; is that correct? 2 MR. SADY: 3 THE COURT: 4 MR. SADY: 5 Yes. All right. And it's not offered for the truth to what it asserts. 6 THE COURT: 7 sustain the hearsay exception. 8 9 MR. SADY: Fine. We -- we're not admitting it for the truth of what it -- it's only for the -- 10 11 I've already indicated that I'll THE COURT: All right. Are you ready to go on with your next question, Counsel? 12 MR. SADY: 13 THE COURT: Yes. All right. 14 BY MR. SADY: (Continuing) 15 Q. 16 the state of mind -- for your state of mind regarding 17 whether you should target Mohamed Mohamud; is that correct? 18 A. One of the elements was that email. 19 Q. And that email was one of a series; is that correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. It was the ultimate in a number of back-and-forth 22 emails that would provide context for the last email? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And that context was part of how you evaluated the 25 ultimate email that you considered concerning? The -- you relied on the Beau Stuart email to evaluate Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 11 of 144 447 Trousas - X 1 A. Could you rephrase? 2 Q. The entire chain of emails was in your possession in 3 making a determination about whether to be concerned about 4 the last email? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And so you had all of those emails when you were making 7 the decision about what your state of mind was as far as 8 proceeding with the investigation? 9 A. What do you mean? Yes. 10 MR. SADY: 11 THE COURT: Your Honor, I think that -Sustained. The objection is 12 sustained, Counsel. 13 offering it for state of mind, but I'm not going to allow 14 it. 15 Go ahead. 16 17 It's hearsay. We're not offering it for the truth, Your Honor. THE COURT: All right. Sustained. What does that mean to you, Mr. Sady? 20 21 This is the email sent by the defendant in this case. MR. SADY: 18 19 I understand your position that you're MR. SADY: It means you don't want to hear further argument, Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: That's right. 23 BY MR. SADY: (Continuing) 24 Q. 25 from -- regarding the email, the next email passage was In the context of the information that you're receiving Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 12 of 144 448 Trousas - X 1 from -- it was in response to Mohamed's email; is that 2 correct? 3 A. Could you repeat the question? 4 Q. On January 5th, Beau Michael Stuart sent an email to 5 Mohamed Mohamud; is that correct? 6 A. May I see the email? 7 Q. Certainly. 8 jury? 9 10 And could you -- could you read it to the MR. KNIGHT: Objection. Hearsay. He's asking -- just reading all these I don't know where we're going. 11 THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection. 12 BY MR. SADY: (Continuing) 13 Q. 14 exchanged prior to the last one were innocuous? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. That they involved school performance? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. That it involved how he was -- that -- how Mr. Stuart 19 was encouraging Mohamed on his studies? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And how Mr. Mohamud was telling him about the 22 difficulties at school? Would it be fair to say that the emails that were 23 MR. KNIGHT: 24 THE COURT: 25 can, Counsel. Objection. Hearsay. Yes, you're going farther than you Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 13 of 144 449 Trousas - X 1 BY MR. SADY: (Continuing) 2 Q. 3 trying to set up a Skype time to talk. 4 A. I can't recall the Skype. 5 Q. Is that Beau Stuart indicating that he was interested 6 in chatting? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And, ultimately, on the 24th, Beau Michael Stuart sends 9 an email to Mohamed -- And the social exchange that was occurring, they were 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. -- and basically saying: 12 going to Makkah for five days? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And it's that email that he responds to, that he 15 discussed; is that correct? 16 A. 17 I won't be online because I'm The January 4th email? Can I see it again? Yes. 18 Q. 19 January 24th email that caused your concern? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Could you read that, please? 22 A. Oh, nice. 23 will be the one to open all quds and make dua that I will be 24 a martyr in the highest chambers of paradise. 25 Q. And in response to that email is what is -- Make lots of dua for me. Make dua that I And it's true, isn't it, that martyrdom is considered Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 14 of 144 450 Trousas - X 1 an honor in the Islamic religion? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And certainly isn't synonomous with suicide? 4 A. I don't know who else you martyr yourself. 5 Q. It's not in the reflective, is it? 6 about himself that you repeatedly testify? 7 A. No. 8 Q. And martyrdom is basically a righteous death; isn't 9 that true? It's not anything 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And that could be any kind of honorable death? 12 A. You're going to have to talk to an expert about what 13 they mean by martyrdom. 14 Q. Thank you. 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. Thank you. 17 Exactly. On June 23rd, 2010, you decided to send Mohamed an 18 email? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You discussed it with other people beforehand? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you decided to begin it with a salutation -- 23 A. May I see the email? 24 Q. -- of salamz bro? 25 A. Yes. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 15 of 144 451 Trousas - X 1 Q. It's basically peace brother? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You wanted to start out friendly? 4 A. Yeah, the email is a combination of all the emails from 5 Amro Al-Ali. 6 Q. And so you were -- 7 A. That's how Amro talks to Mohamed, so I took pieces of 8 different emails and sent it out to him. 9 Q. So you were mimicking somebody who was -- who had sent 10 him emails before? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. May I see the email? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And those were in the imperative tense? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Go to hushmail, set up an account, send a message? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, hushmail provides a lawful service? 21 A. Email services, yeah. 22 Q. And it purports to provide privacy in communication. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And Mohamed followed the directive? 25 A. Yes. You also had three directives in the email? Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 16 of 144 452 Trousas - X 1 Q. He went to the email? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And set up a hushmail account? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. The following day you decided to send him another 6 email. 7 Perhaps I should ask a clarifying question. On 8 June 24th you sent an email to your comrades in San 9 Francisco? 10 A. May I see the email? 11 Q. Before we get to that, once you had sent -- had the 12 hushmail account for Mohamed, you decided to talk with your 13 other FBI agents who were involved in this investigation; is 14 that correct? 15 A. We usually talk, yeah. 16 Q. And the question was how to proceed with the next step? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And the decision was made to ask: 19 to help the brothers? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And there was also discussion about how to frame the 22 email? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Making sure that there was proper respect paid in terms 25 of the way Mohamed was addressed in the email? Are you still able Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 17 of 144 453 Trousas - X 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And that there were -- there's a religious expression 3 of gratitude for responding so soon? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. That they hoped that they would hear from him soon? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And in the middle of all that was the question: 8 you still able to help the brothers? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And Mohamed responded to that email? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And he said he did not think he would be able to go for 13 a while? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And he said he needed to save up and clear up some 16 things? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And he said: 19 travel? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Don't call me. I'll call you? 22 A. Where is that? I don't see that over here. 23 Q. He only spoke of travel? 24 A. I'm trying to find a way to go. 25 Q. And he only spoke of travel? Are I will contact you when I am able to Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 18 of 144 454 Trousas - X 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. He said he could not travel? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And he said he had other things he needed to do? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. He didn't suggest doing anything in the United States? 7 A. No. 8 Q. He did not say he could help the brothers without 9 traveling? 10 A. No. 11 Q. He did not ask if there was anything else he could do 12 to help the brothers? 13 A. No. 14 Q. He said he would be the one to get in touch in the 15 future? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. He did not ask for the communications to continue it? 18 A. No. 19 Q. He did not seek continued contact at all? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. After receiving this email, you and the other FBI 22 agents decided to push harder for a face-to-face meeting? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. A decision was made to persist? 25 A. Yes. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 19 of 144 455 Trousas - X 1 Q. 2 brothers? 3 A. We need to assess him, yes. 4 Q. And he had already been targeted several weeks before 5 then? 6 A. What do you mean? 7 Q. You had written the email on June 7th, which is two 8 weeks before this date, that you had the green light to 9 target Mohamed with an undercover operative; is that Even though he didn't say he was able to help the 10 correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Now, you had access to the case file throughout this 13 time? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You were aware of electronic surveillance? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. All phone calls? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Text messages? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And email? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And the physical surveillance? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And returning for a moment to the electronic email that Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 20 of 144 456 Trousas - X 1 you referred to earlier, the spam email. 2 A. Paleroze. 3 Q. During all that surveillance during that period of 4 time, there was nothing to indicate that there was any 5 material ordered or received by Mohamed; is that correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And there was no electronic equipment prior to 8 directives from the undercover operatives? 9 A. Again, we didn't know. 10 Q. Nothing that you knew of? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. And you had surveillance on all of these electronic 13 communication devices? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. On June 28th, 2010, you received an email from Special 16 Agent Chan? 17 A. May I see the email? 18 Q. You had communication on the 28th of June with a number 19 of FBI agents planning what to do next? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And the decision was made not to wait for any further 22 contact from Mohamed? 23 A. I'd rather see the email. 24 Q. From the January 28th email that you received from 25 Elvis Chan, how did he characterize Mohamed? We didn't know. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 21 of 144 457 Trousas - X 1 A. 2 bad family life can mess up a kid. 3 Q. And the following day there was an email sent to him? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. So the email received from Special Agent Chan was on 6 June 28th? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And that same day is when there was a follow-up email 9 sent to Mohamed? Agent Chan says: Looks like such a happy kid. That 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And in that email you discussed it with other agents 12 before sending it, did you not? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And you decided to invoke the name of God? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You knew he was a conflicted kid? 17 A. We knew he was radicalized. 18 Q. And you knew he was a conflicted and manipulable kid? 19 A. We knew that he was radicalized. 20 Q. And that he was also conflicted; is that correct? 21 A. Right. 22 worried about Amro Al-Ali and Samir Khan. 23 Q. 24 at times to being very disobedient to the rules of Islam; is 25 that correct? And that's why we worried, because we were He went from being -- he went from being very religious Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 22 of 144 458 Trousas - X 1 A. At the time he was very religious. 2 Q. He was also -- well, you said you were familiar with 3 all of the emails and the text messages and the phone calls; 4 right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So you knew he was deeply involved in alcohol use, use 7 of marijuana, and partying? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. But there was also a phrase where he said: 11 modern Muslim for a year now. 12 Q. 13 surveillance -- 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. -- was that he was involved in heavy drinking? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Which is totally inconsistent with the rules of Islam? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. He was involved in using marijuana? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Which is totally inconsistent with the rules of Islam? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. He was involved in immodest partying. 24 inconsistent with the rules of Islam? 25 A. But -- I played That's the actual behavior that you observed during the Yes. That was Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 23 of 144 459 Trousas - X 1 Q. 2 not tolerate that -- that requires compliance with those 3 rules; is that correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. The email that the FBI team put together to send to 6 Mohamed at this point said that you were sure God had a 7 reason for him to "stay where you are"? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Is that correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You refer to God as Allah SWT? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Allah is the Arabic word for God? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. SWT is an Arabic acronym? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. The words of the acronym roughly translate as the most 18 glorified and the most high? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. So you sent this email to a religiously conflicted 21 teenager? 22 A. Radicalized teenager. 23 Q. And you sent it to someone who was religiously 24 conflicted, because he did things that were inconsistent 25 with his religion; is that correct? And moderate or conservative or any type of Islam does Yes, we sent him the email. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 24 of 144 460 Trousas - X 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And you knew darn well he was doing things that were 3 very inconsistent with his religion? 4 A. 5 way to go overseas. 6 we needed to meet with him. 7 Q. 8 needed to do, to get him to meet with you? 9 A. If he had agreed to meet with us, which he did, yes. 10 Q. And you invoked the name of God to help persuade him to 11 meet with you? 12 A. 13 We just had to take over the identity of an associate of 14 Abdul Hadi. 15 We sent him that email because he was trying to find a And, also, because he was radicalized, So you pulled out all the stops, did whatever you That's the way he was communicating with Amro Al-Ali. What was I supposed to say in the email? "We're the 16 FBI. 17 Q. 18 him to keep his communication going with you after he 19 declined to communicate with this person; is that right? 20 A. 21 Samir Khan and Al-Ali, yes. 22 Q. All in a day's work? 23 A. Like I said, we took different pieces of different 24 emails and we put them together, because that's how he was 25 communicating with other people. We want to meet with you"? So you were willing to invoke the name of God to get It's part of the email based on his communication with Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 25 of 144 461 Trousas - X 1 Q. The email also had some soft words, didn't it? 2 A. Could you please define what "soft words" means? 3 Q. Inshalla the pain you feel now -- right now will lessen 4 over time, brother. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You were aware from earlier emails that he had 7 expressed a need for soft words? 8 A. 9 to meet with us. No. We were trying to find a way to get him to agree 10 Q. 11 you? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And included in the way you were trying to find a way 14 to meet with him was by using soft words and compassionate 15 language? 16 A. 17 communicate with him. 18 email. 19 Q. 20 the betrayal was, but I know the pain that comes from that. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You were encouraging him to think that you had 23 experienced the same type of pain that he was experiencing? 24 A. 25 he said, I was betrayed by my family. You were trying to find a way to get him to meet with We used the phrase the other people were using to When you say: It had to look like a legitimate As for your family, I don't know what We were trying to figure out what the pain was. Once Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 26 of 144 462 Trousas - X 1 Q. 2 saying: 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. So you were trying to get him to meet with you after he 5 had declined the first overture to him? 6 A. 7 just -- he said: 8 don't want to meet with you. 9 Q. And he was also -- you were also encouraging him by The pain you feel right now will lessen over time? Well, the first email I think was a declaration. I will contact you. He didn't say: He I He said that he would contact you in the future and did 10 not ask for any follow-up from the -- from the writer; is 11 that correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. You claim that the undercover had business in 14 Seattle -- 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. -- and would come to Portland especially to meet with 17 Mohamed? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And you received no response to this email of the 28th 20 until you had to write again; is that correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. On June 29th you wrote an email to Special Agent Chan? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And in that email you were advising the undercover 25 operative and Special Agent Chan what you had learned so far Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 27 of 144 463 Trousas - X 1 about Mohamed's personality? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You knew that the undercover operative was preparing to 4 approach Mohamed? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And you told him that you had learned that Mohamed was 7 very shy in the presence of older people? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. That he was quiet around adults? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You said that: 12 him? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And that everything included recontacting him after he 15 didn't respond to the July 28th "God has a purpose" email? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. When you didn't receive a response to the "God has a 18 purpose for you" email, you decided to send another email on 19 July 10, 2010? 20 A. May I see the email? 21 Q. And that was not to the hushmail account, was it? 22 A. No. 23 Q. So this was to his truthbespoken email account? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And in that one you open with the respectful We were using everything we have on Yes, sir. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 28 of 144 464 Trousas - X 1 traditional Muslim greeting salem alaikoom? 2 A. 3 set up the hushmail account. 4 Q. This email was sent on July 10th; correct? 5 A. Is there a date there? 6 Yeah. We sent that email after we instructed him to I can't see the date. That email was after we instructed him to set up a 7 hushmail account, which he did. 8 Q. 9 sent until -- was not sent after the June 28th "God has a So you think this was not -- that this email was not 10 purpose for you" email? 11 A. 12 what I've seen here, we asked him to check the hushmail 13 account July -- July 10th. 14 Q. 15 began with the traditional Muslim greeting? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Salem alaikoom? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You then you called him "Dear Bro"? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And asked him: 22 your hushmail account? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And you signed off with "Talk to you soon"? 25 A. Yes. I cannot remember the date of the email, but, based on So on July 10th you sent him this email with -- that When you have a minute, to please check Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 29 of 144 465 Trousas - X 1 Q. On July 16th, almost a week later, Mohamed emailed you? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And he said that he would be able to do that and would 4 meet with you? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. He gave you his telephone number? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. He said to call him at that number? 9 A. "Call me or text me." 10 Q. Or to text you at the -- text him at his own phone 11 number? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Once Mohamed had agreed to meet with you, you received 14 an email from Special Agent Chan? 15 A. May I see the email, please? 16 Q. That was on July 16th? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And you were cc'd on it as was the undercover 19 operative? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Means that you got -- received a copy of that email? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And a hotel had been arranged to be available for 24 meeting with Mohamed? 25 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. He sent it to Special Agent Henderson. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 30 of 144 466 Trousas - X 1 Q. 2 to build a relationship with Mohamed? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. He thought if Mohamed came on strong that you'd go 5 straight up to the hotel room? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And otherwise save that for the second meeting? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And Special Agent Chan wanted to have a meal at the And Special Agent Chan was starting to think about how 10 second meeting? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Because sharing a meal and talking about things in 13 general is a nice way to segue into building a relationship? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. He also wanted to show Mohamed an FBI training video? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. A video made by the Government? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. You've seen that video? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You knew about what that video was when you received 22 this email? 23 A. 24 email. 25 Q. He showed it to me afterwards; not before I got the So you weren't aware that it was a -- at that time that Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 31 of 144 467 Trousas - X 1 it was a video made by the United States Government showing 2 Muslim fighters? 3 A. 4 camp video. 5 it afterwards, yes. 6 Q. 7 that it includes starting with a -- the shada, one of the 8 five pillars of Islam? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And that it has two screens where it shows verses from 11 the Holy Quran; is that correct? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And it's intermingling those images along with images 14 of basically your military-type of training? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Be all you can be? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And in that video there is an image of a person 19 pressing a cell phone button? 20 A. I've got to see the video. 21 Q. Does this help to refresh your recollection? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Does that look like a screen shot from the video? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What do you see in the individual's right hand? The way it was phrased in the email, it was a training Yeah, I hadn't seen it at the time. You saw it afterwards. But I saw You know that it involved -- I can't remember now. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 32 of 144 468 Trousas - X 1 A. A cell phone. 2 Q. What does the person's thumb appear to be doing? 3 A. Dialing a number. 4 Q. Do you remember that the images following were of an 5 explosion? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. So at this meeting to -- in this email two weeks before 8 the first meeting, you were already planning on showing a 9 video with an image of a cell phone igniting an explosion? 10 A. 11 options. 12 dangerous here in the United States. 13 what his plan was. 14 Q. 15 meeting? 16 A. 17 In the first meeting, actually he said that he saw a video 18 of brothers putting explosives in a vehicle. 19 20 Only if he was -- like I said, we offered him five Only if he was thinking about doing something The plan was to show him the video at the second Yes. Because he decided he wanted to go operational. MR. SADY: This -- Your Honor, this -- this is not within his knowledge. 21 THE COURT: 22 MR. SADY: This is hearsay. What? He's referring to items that are in the 23 first recorded meeting. 24 weeks earlier. 25 We needed to find out THE COURT: I'm asking him about events two Well, your question was the plan was Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 33 of 144 469 Trousas - X 1 to show him the video and in the second meeting? 2 MR. SADY: 3 THE COURT: 4 Yes. Go ahead. Ask him another question. One of the problems is is you have a fairly expansive 5 question, Mr. Sady. 6 BY MR. SADY: (Continuing) 7 Q. 8 that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And Agent Chan is saying, "My idea for the second 11 meeting." 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And it says, "It involves another meal and coming up to 14 the room to have a more private conversation"? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Could you read the next -- well, then after that time 17 he says that -- could you read the next two lines, please? 18 A. 19 who he's dealing with or what he wants to do. 20 good time to show him our training camp video, too. 21 Q. Thank you. 22 A. That would help us establish our -- 23 Q. Thank you. 24 third? 25 A. Go ahead. In the second paragraph of the email -- do you see Do you see that? This is the time where we ask Mr. Mohamud if he knows Sorry. It would be a I asked for the next two lines. That's the Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 34 of 144 470 Trousas - X 1 THE COURT: Counsel, do you want him to stop 2 there? 3 cross-examination. 4 he's left something out, you can bring it back then. 5 BY MR. SADY: (Continuing) 6 Q. 7 voicemail on Mohamed's answering machine? 8 A. 9 All right. You can handle that on All right. Excuse me, redirect. If On July 24th Youssef, the undercover agent, left a I have to see the transcript. I can't recall. Yes. 10 Q. 11 be on the plane? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. He engaged in some religious talk with Mohamed? 14 A. What do you mean by religious talk? 15 Q. He thanked him for some of the religious observations 16 that he had received from Mohamed? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And Mohamed responded by email that same day, 19 July 24th, 2010? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And he said that a Friday meeting would be excellent? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. He invited Mohamed to his place of worship? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. He gave the name of the house of worship? And he said that he would finish this meeting and would Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 35 of 144 471 Trousas - X 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. He gave the address for the house of worship? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. He proposed that they meet at Mohamed's mosque on 5 Friday? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And he gave them the schedule for prayer and the 8 sermon? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And Mohamed said, "Let's meet at the service"? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. That they would take seats in the front row of the 13 mosque during prayer time? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And they would pray together? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You met with the team of FBI agents after receiving 18 this email from Mohamed? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And you formulated a response? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And in that response you rejected the idea meeting 23 publicly? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And in the email that you sent to Mohamed, you Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 36 of 144 472 Trousas - X 1 complimented him on being an enthusiastic Muslim? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. You thanked him for encouraging -- for him encouraging 4 you to be a better Muslim, as well? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. You said, "I'm very excited about meeting with you"? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. After this initial positive affirmation-type of 9 communication, then you told him that your communication 10 needed to stay private? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. The FBI sends him a message saying the kuffar, the 13 unbelievers, have eyes and ears in almost all of the 14 mosques, masjids, in the United States. 15 A. 16 operations in mosques, so there was no way for -- for us to 17 meet in a mosque. 18 security there was no way for us to meet him at the mosque. 19 Q. 20 the kuffar having eyes and ears in all the mosques, if you 21 have kuffar? 22 A. 23 almost all masjids in the United States. 24 Q. And could you continue with that? 25 A. And even if they didn't, I cannot be seen by others. We do not operate -- we do not have undercover And also for our undercovers' safety and Could you read what you said starting at the -- about Yes. The unbeliever, the kuffar, have eyes and ears in Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 37 of 144 473 Trousas - X 1 So that was for -- for the safety and security of our 2 undercovers. 3 a mosque. 4 Q. 5 to be private and confidential and surreptitious? 6 A. 7 alone or had someone else with him. 8 Q. 9 not someone else acting with him? We were not to have an undercover operation at You were also indicating to him that everything needed Yes, sir. We didn't know at the time if he was acting And you -- and you found out that he was -- there was 10 A. The day of the takedown, yes, on -- on November 26th. 11 Q. Also said that you were going to talk with him 12 privately; is that correct? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And in your email conversation that led to this email 15 being sent, the FBI agents had agreed that this would be a 16 good idea to provide him respect? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. To make him feel special that he had been chosen? 19 A. Where does it say that? 20 never said anything about chosen. 21 Q. About? 22 A. Chosen or -- yeah, I did say respect. 23 him, yeah. 24 Q. 25 into the email? I think I said respect, but I With respect for And that was part of what was deliberately being put Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 38 of 144 474 Trousas - X 1 A. That we have respect for him, yeah. 2 Q. And you wanted to show that he had been -- that he 3 basically got the blessing. 4 email; that the undercover is coming to Portland to 5 specifically meet with Mohamed because he's recommended -- 6 A. By the brothers, yes. 7 Q. -- and he's got -- and he's got the blessing? 8 A. From Abdul Hadi and the council, yes. 9 Q. That's not stated, is it? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Thank you. 12 July 24th that you were concerned about a draft email -- or 13 an email to -- to his father -- that he had sent to his 14 father; is that correct? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. You basically thought that he -- you were concerned 17 that he was cutting his ties with his family? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And that email, it turns out, was never sent; isn't 20 that true? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Mohamed sent a responsive email in the afternoon of 23 July 26th, 2010; isn't that correct? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. You, in your direct examination, discussed your Isn't that what you put in the Now, you also stated in your email of Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 39 of 144 475 Trousas - X 1 surprise that he was talking about spies? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. This email only came after you had expressed concern in 4 your email of there being eyes and ears everywhere; is that 5 correct? 6 A. Would you repeat that question? 7 Q. The July 26th email from Mohamed, where he expressed 8 concerns about spies -- 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. -- was only in response to your earlier email where you 11 had brought up for the first time the concern about other 12 people watching or listening? 13 A. No. 14 Q. From the July 24th email that you sent to Mohamed, you 15 brought up for the first time that you should not meet 16 publicly; is that correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You brought up for the first time that it had to remain 19 secret? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You brought up for the first time that there were eyes 22 and ears in the mosques? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. There were eyes and ears in the mosques? 25 A. Yes. Mr. Mohamud. No. Mr. -- yeah, about the mosque. I didn't say anything about spies. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 40 of 144 476 Trousas - X 1 Q. 2 ears in almost all the mosques in the United States, then he 3 sent an email back raising some issues about security; is 4 that correct? 5 A. 6 were. 7 Q. 8 that -- to answer that question was by saying that he had 9 questions for you? And only after talking about the kuffar having eyes and Raising some issues that we weren't who people say we And the way this 18-year-old decided to bring up 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And the questions were going to be who has the -- how 12 did you get the truthbespoken email address? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And in the email itself he says: 15 given you my truthbespoken email? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And then he says: 18 Amro did give you my email, then how do you know him? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. So his big security measure was to ask you how you got 21 his email, at the same time telling you twice that Amro 22 would be the only person he could think of that would have 23 provided it? 24 A. Or two or brothers -- or one or two other brothers. 25 Q. And he also said: Only Amro could have How did you get my e-mail? And if I'm going to ask you to describe Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 41 of 144 477 Trousas - X 1 him? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And that was the extent of it; is that correct? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Three days after that email you had another meeting 6 with a group of FBI agents? 7 A. Meeting? 8 Q. Let me take you to -- you mentioned that you had been 9 involved in having Mr. Mohamud move out of the campus life; What do you mean? 10 is that correct? 11 A. 12 university. 13 Q. 14 and some other of the people you were working with? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And you said that Mohamed was moving to Corvallis 17 during the next three weeks? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And that we need to find a way to keep him separate 20 from any roommates? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And you needed to keep him separate from the campus 23 environment? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. To aid us in controlling his moves? Yes, sir. No campus life. We needed him away from the On August 26th, 2010, you wrote an email to Elvis Chan Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 42 of 144 478 Trousas - X 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And what you planned to do was tell him that he should 3 rent an apartment off campus? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And give him money for rent or rent it yourselves? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And tell him that he needs to stay there all by 8 himself? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And that's what happened? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You testified that you were present at the time of the 13 arrest on November 26th? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And as he was being arrested, the undercover operative 16 Hussein was also being arrested? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Fake arrested, of course? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And during his fake arrest he was screaming Allahu 21 Akbar? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And he was being directed by the officers who were 24 conducting the fake arrest, "Be quiet. 25 A. Yes, sir. Be quiet"? Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 43 of 144 479 Trousas - X 1 Q. "No words. 2 A. I haven't here the transcript; but, yeah, I remember 3 the "Be quiet." 4 Q. 5 screaming? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And he warned the officers just beforehand and said, 8 "I'm going to be screaming Allahu Akbar? 9 A. No words"? Yes, sir. And he was defying what they wanted. He was -- he kept I wasn't present with Hussein; but, yeah, Allahu Akbar, 10 yes. 11 Q. You said you were one of the transporting officers? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And you were in the front driver's seat? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And in the driver's seat was Detective Cavelli (ph)? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And in the driver's passenger seat was Special Agent 18 Ryan Dwyer? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And Mohamed was in the back passenger seat? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And he had his handcuffs -- hands handcuffed behind his 23 back? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And as the transport began, he was quiet? Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 44 of 144 480 Trousas - X 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. He was compliant? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And then you said something to him in a foreign 5 language? 6 A. 7 about it or we -- yes, I did. 8 Q. 9 ever wrote; isn't that correct? I said something, yeah. I think it was -- we talk And you did not include that in any report that you 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. You did not include it in any report? 12 A. No. 13 Q. You don't remember what you said, do you? 14 A. No. 15 Q. You said something to him, but you did not put it in 16 any written report you made of the arrest? 17 A. I said -- I think I said, "Be quiet," yes. 18 Q. Before there was any problem in the car? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. There's nothing in any of your written reports that 21 indicates that you spoke to him in a foreign language? 22 A. No. 23 Q. And you were also interviewed by Special Agent Luh 24 afterwards? 25 A. Yes. I said, "Be quiet," or -- I said something, yeah. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 45 of 144 481 Trousas - X 1 Q. 2 during the arrest? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Including that -- what you did in terms of restraining 5 Mohamed? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And telling him to be quiet. 8 anything to Special Agent Luh about having said something to 9 him in a foreign language? And you provided a detailed account of what happened But you never said 10 A. I told him to be -- we'd talk. 11 Q. You didn't say anything about -- saying to Mohamed 12 anything in a foreign language before the problem started? 13 A. If it's not there, no. 14 Q. As the co-case agent you had access to all the 15 electronic surveillance for Mohamed's communications? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You had recordings on the cell phone from -- of his 18 phone calls? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You had text messages? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Text messages include the content of the text 23 messages -- 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. -- as well as the location of the telephone at the time Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 46 of 144 482 Trousas - X 1 the text message was sent through cellar towers? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You were intercepting his emails? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you had access to his historical emails? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You had access to his computer and knew of his computer 8 activity? 9 A. What do you mean? 10 Q. Were you present when Judge King read the stipulation? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. So that's consistent with your understanding and belief 13 that there was access to the computer activity? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You also had physical surveillance teams that were 16 watching him and listening to conversations with his 17 friends? 18 A. Surveillance team watching him, yes. 19 Q. And you were aware of a massive amount of social 20 communication? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Communications about parties? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Drinking? 25 A. Yes. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 47 of 144 483 Trousas - X 1 Q. And smoking marijuana? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And there was nothing involving attempts to obtain 4 explosives prior to the contact with the undercover 5 operatives? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. You provided no evidence to this jury that Mohamed ever 8 sought information about building a bomb? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. You have no information to give us that he ever 11 searched about chemicals related to bomb-making? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. You have no evidence to give us that Mohamed ever 14 searched for dynamite or explosives? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. You have no evidence to give us that he received any 17 packages related to bombs or bomb-making? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And you have no evidence that he received any packages 20 related to components before meeting with the agents? 21 A. Based on our knowledge and surveillance, no, sir. 22 Q. You have nothing to share about any interest by Mohamed 23 in bomb-making from the thousands of phone calls or text 24 messages that the FBI reviewed and were produced in this 25 case? Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 48 of 144 484 Trousas - X/ReD 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Nothing to share because there's no evidence in those 3 communications that Mohamed was trying to build a bomb 4 before he met the agents? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Nothing to share because there's no evidence in those 7 communications that before meeting with the agents Mohamed 8 had suggested bombing people or property in Portland? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. No plans to use a weapon of mass destruction in the 11 United States? 12 A. No, sir. 13 14 MR. SADY: Thank you, Your Honor. Nothing further. 15 THE COURT: All right. Redirect? 16 17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. KNIGHT: 19 Q. 20 a few specific areas that Mr. Sady asked you about. 21 I want to talk about Samir Khan. 22 testimony about Mr. Khan. 23 you were familiar with the emails sent between the defendant 24 and Mr. Khan. 25 A. Thank you, Agent. Yes, sir. I want to redirect your attention to First, There was a fair amount of To clarify, you testified that Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 49 of 144 485 Trousas - ReD 1 Q. 2 United States. 3 the FBI's separate investigation of Mr. Khan while he was in 4 the United States? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And specifically you talked about the period of 7 February 2009 to August of 2009 when the defendant was in 8 contact with Mr. Khan? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Were you the case agent in the defendant's case at that 11 time? 12 A. No. 13 Q. And when you talked about that period of time -- you 14 stated it before -- but was the defendant the subject of an 15 FBI investigation, while he was 17, during that time? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Now I want to turn your attention specifically to some 18 of those communications. 19 You testified a little bit about Mr. Khan's time in the Are you familiar or were you familiar with MR. KNIGHT: And at this time, Your Honor, I would 20 like to offer Exhibit 223, numbers 45, 62, and 72. 21 are, Your Honor, the emails between the defendant and 22 Samir Khan that were brought up in cross-examination. 23 THE COURT: 24 MR. SADY: 25 THE COURT: All right. Any objection? No, Your Honor. Received. These Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 50 of 144 486 Trousas - ReD 1 MR. KNIGHT: Thank you. 2 BY MR. KNIGHT: (Continuing) 3 Q. 4 between these two individuals and some specific questions 5 about the emails themselves. 6 is Government's 223, number 62. 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. I would like to have you take a second to orient 9 yourself and please tell the jury who this is from, who it You were asked a number of questions about the emails I want to first show you what 10 is to, and the date it was sent. 11 A. 12 April 7th, 2009. 13 Q. 14 sorry, to clarify here, you have reviewed the email -- 15 emails exchanged between the defendant and Mr. Khan? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And does this appear to be one of those emails? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And I want you to go down, please, if you could, and 20 read to me the text of the email that appears to be written 21 by the defendant. 22 A. 23 Allah will protect you. 24 talk with one brother one day about why someone would get 25 involved in jihad -- in jihad media if it means risking not It's an email from Mr. Mohamud's email account dated Thank you. It says: And I want you to specifically -- and, I'm Laugh out loud Malcolm X. Brother inshallah, Keep up what you do best. I had a Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 51 of 144 487 Trousas - ReD 1 leaving, and he said some amazing words to me that this 2 jihad needs more than foot soldiers and that the media 3 sometimes is more effective than the bullets. 4 good work. 5 many schools have just ran out of funds today so much so 6 that my nephew's school cannot buy paper anymore until next 7 school year. 8 Q. 9 I'll ask you some specific questions. Keep up the Oh, and, by the way, I just found out today that Allahu Akbar. Now I'm going to have you look at 223, Exhibit 72, and 10 A. 11 group. 12 Q. Thank you. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And are you familiar with this email? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Thank you. 17 middle portion of the email. 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. First of all, to get some context, is this a discussion 20 of some subjects for the periodical Jihad Recollections? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And were these some comments about the items in 23 Jihad Recollections? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Thank you. Again, that's an email from Mr. Mohamud to the jihadi We went to page two of this email. I want you to look specifically at the It talks about grenade technology. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 52 of 144 488 Trousas - ReD 1 Now, I want to actually turn now to Jihad Recollections 2 themselves. 3 about that publication. 4 publication, in connection with emails like this, were a 5 concern to you as a case agent early on in the 6 investigation? 7 A. 8 online jihadi magazine. 9 the group what to do, what kind of topics they discuss, that You were asked a number of specific questions And can you articulate why that Because, again, he's -- the Jihad Recollections is an Mr. Mohamud advising the rest of 10 he's doing -- he's talking about grenades, violent jihad, 11 martyrdom. 12 Jihad Recollection forum. 13 Q. 14 Mr. Sady discussed, which is Getting in Shape Without 15 Weights. 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Now, it was characterized to you as a description of 18 high school gym class exercises? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Are you familiar with the article? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And are you familiar with the entire edition of that 23 magazine? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And could you describe, based on the article, to whom So we're worrying about his presence in the I want to turn your recollection to the first article You're familiar with that article? Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 53 of 144 489 Trousas - ReD 1 the advice on Getting in Shape Without Weights is directed? 2 A. From what I recall, he said to like-minded brothers. 3 Q. And is there some discussion of when one should be 4 getting into shape and where without weights? 5 A. Before goes for jihad. 6 Q. So not before high school gym class? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Thank you. 9 I want to turn now to another article you were asked 10 about and that was a article characterized as preparing for 11 the long night? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Are you familiar with that article? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And Mr. Sady asked you some questions, but are you 16 familiar with an editing change that was made to that 17 specific article? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And can you describe what changes were made to that 20 article before it was submitted to Jihad Recollections? 21 A. It was the 9/11 Twin Towers. 22 Q. Thank you. 23 There were two more articles that were discussed in 24 Jihad Recollections. 25 Media. One was briefly the role of As-Sahab You were asked a brief question about the role of Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 54 of 144 490 Trousas - ReD 1 As-Sahab Media. 2 First of all, are you familiar with comments the 3 defendant made later on to the undercover agents about the 4 role of As-Sahab Media? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. And, again, can you explain to the jury what As-Sahab 7 Media is? 8 A. 9 online presence and al-Qaeda's media venue. 10 Q. 11 As-Sahab Media is the media arm of al-Qaeda. Their Thank you. Next we're going to turn to the article regarding 12 Europe, and we're going to pull this up, and it's 13 Exhibit 232. 14 you can, what that article is actually discussing or 15 advocating, please? 16 A. It's talking about the jihadi -- the jihadi movement. 17 Q. Where? 18 A. In the United States. 19 Q. And does it compare to the jihadi movement in Europe? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Does it make specific reference to the attacks in New 22 York and Washington? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And based on your experience in reviewing these 25 magazines and their articles, do they have significance All right. If you could just summarize, if Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 55 of 144 491 Trousas - ReD 1 within the larger jihadi community? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. I want to turn your attention now, if I may, to this 4 discussion about Amro Al-Ali. 5 questions about whether or not the defendant knew where the 6 emails were sent from. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And in your review of all the email exchanges between 9 defendant and Mr. Al-Ali and others, does the defendant ever You were asked specific 10 discuss traveling to Saudi Arabia? 11 A. No. 12 Q. And is the discussion focused on Yemen? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And is that where you have identified Mr. Al-Ali's 15 initial emails to have been sent from? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. I want to direct your attention now to Government's 18 Exhibit 80, which will not be shown to the jury; but, for 19 your reference, is this the Interpol Red Notice? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. I would like you to look at page 2. 22 specifically asked you the question on cross-examination 23 about this document and about what it said. 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Do you recall being asked if it said what the And Mr. Sady Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 56 of 144 492 Trousas - ReD 1 punishment was for the offense being alleged in the 2 document? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And he had you read that it was one year's 5 imprisonment? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Now, for starters, are you an expert on Saudi Arabian 8 law? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Can you please tell the jury, then, what the actual 11 charge listed above for Mr. Al-Ali is that gave rise to the 12 sentence that Mr. Sady was asking about? 13 A. 14 organizations and connection to a fugitive who is an expert 15 in explosives manufacturing. 16 Q. 17 discussion about the travel at the airport. 18 questions about whether or not you were aware that the 19 defendant was at the airport on June 14th, 2010, to fly to 20 Alaska. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did you have investigative concerns that he may seek to 23 travel elsewhere after Alaska? 24 A. 25 and go to Yemen. The charge for Mr. Al-Ali is links to terrorist Now I want to direct your attention briefly to the You were asked We felt after Alaska he was going to go on the plane Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 57 of 144 493 Trousas - ReD 1 Q. 2 that there were statements made by the defendant to the 3 undercovers that that, indeed, was his plan? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. I want to turn your attention to this issue of the 6 training video that was discussed in an early email between 7 you and other FBI agents. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Now, the training video that was discussed, was that And are you aware, in the course of the investigation, 10 ultimately shown to the defendant at a later meeting? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And was that shown to the defendant after he had 13 already expressed a willingness to detonate a bomb in 14 Portland? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. I want to go to -- just a minute, pardon me, Agent. 17 You're going to be looking at an email that Mr. Sady showed 18 you. 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And he had you read a portion of this email that ended 21 with a certain sentence. 22 recall that? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Just to provide a little context, I'm going to have you 25 read the rest of the paragraph, starting with the words Training camp video 2. Do you Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 58 of 144 494 Trousas - ReD 1 "This is" and ending with "issues" in that paragraph, and it 2 will be highlighted for you here in a moment. 3 A. 4 who he's dealing with and what he wants to do. 5 a good time to show our training camp video, too. 6 help us establish our predication of the subject to help 7 avoid any entrapment issues. 8 Q. That was the rest of the sentence? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And just to clarify, on November 26th, when the 11 defendant was arrested, what did you say to him before he 12 kicked you in the head? 13 A. This is the time where we asked Mr. Mohamud if he knows MR. KNIGHT: THE COURT: MR. SADY: 19 THE COURT: 23 24 25 All right. Anything further on Yes, Your Honor. Limit it to issues covered on redirect. 21 22 No further questions, recross? 18 20 Thank you. Your Honor. 16 17 That will I asked him to be quiet. 14 15 It would be MR. SADY: /// Of course. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 59 of 144 495 Trousas - ReX 1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. SADY: 3 Q. You said "Be quiet" after he started making noise? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Before he started making noise is when you spoke to 6 him? 7 A. 8 talk. 9 Q. I said: We're going to get there, and we're going to On my cross-examination, didn't you say you didn't 10 remember what you said to him in a foreign language? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you don't remember what you said to him in a 13 foreign language? 14 A. I do not recall. 15 Q. When you said "Be quiet," that happened later after the 16 fuss started? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 MR. SADY: 19 THE COURT: 20 MR. SADY: Your Honor, may I have one moment? All right. Thank you. 21 BY MR. SADY: (Continuing) 22 Q. 23 regarding Samir Khan? 24 A. There was another. 25 Q. It certainly wasn't public information? You mentioned that there was other investigations Yes, sir. Another investigation. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 60 of 144 496 Trousas - ReX 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. It was certainly not something that a 17-year-old from 3 Beaverton would have heard about? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. And the email that you read about how effective words 6 are, that's basically the same idea that's on the Thomas 7 Jefferson Library that says the pen is mightier than the 8 sword? 9 A. I never read the article. 10 Q. Never heard the expression "The pen is mightier than 11 the sword"? 12 A. 13 article. I've heard the expression, but I never read the actual 14 MR. SADY: 15 THE COURT: 16 down. Nothing further, Your Honor. All right. Do you have another witness to put on at this point? 17 MR. KNIGHT: 18 THE COURT: 19 MS. HOLSINGER: 20 21 This witness may step We do, Your Honor. Call your next witness. The Government would call Brad Petrie. DEPUTY COURTROOM CLERK: Come forward, Mr. Petrie. 22 23 BRADFORD PETRIE, 24 called as a witness in behalf of the Plaintiff, being first 25 duly sworn, is examined and testified as follows: Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 61 of 144 497 Petrie - D 1 2 DEPUTY COURTROOM CLERK: State your full name and spell your last name for the record. 3 4 Please be seated. THE WITNESS: My name is Bradford Petrie, P-E-T-R-I-E. 5 6 DIRECT EXAMINATION 7 BY MS. HOLSINGER: 8 Q. Are you a retired special agent with the FBI? 9 A. Yes, I am. 10 Q. And when did you retire? 11 A. I retired August 21st, 2011. 12 Q. How long were you with the FBI? 13 A. 23 years and approximately nine months. 14 Q. Can you give the jury a little brief overview of your 15 years with the FBI? 16 A. 17 division of the FBI. 18 mostly foreign counterintelligence. 19 terrorism and some domestic terrorism cases. 20 Q. And from Phoenix, where did you go from there? 21 A. From Phoenix I transferred to the Eugene resident 22 office for the Portland Division of the FBI, and I remained 23 there until my retirement. 24 Q. So how long were you in the Eugene resident office? 25 A. Approximately another 11 years or so. My first assignment with the FBI was in the Phoenix I worked national security cases, Some international Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 62 of 144 498 Petrie - D 1 Q. 2 of the Portland division? 3 A. 4 five to possibly ten agents at the most. 5 Q. 6 kind of cases you worked in the Eugene office? 7 A. 8 counterintelligence and some international terrorism cases. 9 Q. And what are you doing now as a retired special agent? 10 A. I currently am the acting lieutenant with the 11 University of Oregon Police Department. 12 Q. 13 the national security investigation of this defendant in 14 June of 2010? 15 A. Yes, I was. 16 Q. And specifically on June 14th of 2010, did you 17 participate in an interview of the defendant and his parents 18 at the Portland International Airport? 19 A. Yes, I did. 20 Q. Can you describe for the jury how that interview took 21 place? 22 A. 23 fly to Alaska and we knew that he was not going to be 24 allowed to fly that day. 25 the opportunity to engage him, to interview him, and learn a And what's the size of that office, as a branch office It's very small. I think at various times we have from And what was your sort of general duty assignment, the National security cases mostly related to foreign And as a special agent of the FBI, were you involved in That date we knew the defendant would be attempting to So we were hoping to, if we had Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 63 of 144 499 Petrie - D 1 little bit more about him and assess him. 2 Q. 3 to the point where you spoke to the defendant at the airport 4 on that day? 5 A. 6 Mohamed with his mother and father in the concourse area. 7 They were standing, talking amongst themselves. 8 a little bit confused whether to stay or whether to leave 9 and what to do at that point. And when you -- did you -- how did you ultimately get After he was denied boarding the plane, we observed They seemed 10 Q. And who was with you? 11 A. Agent Chris Henderson. 12 Q. So the two of you. 13 area? 14 A. 15 the concourse area; probably some outside the concourse 16 area. 17 Q. 18 concourse area, were you aware that they had already been to 19 the ticket counter and -- 20 A. Yes, I was. 21 Q. When you approached them, what happened? 22 A. When I approached them, we identified ourselves, and I 23 said, "I understand Mohamed was not allowed to fly today, 24 and we'd like to talk about that if we could." 25 Were there other agents in the There were other agents in the area. I believe some in When you saw the defendant and his parents in the And at that point they immediately had quite a few Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 64 of 144 500 Petrie - D 1 questions for us. 2 time, if you do not have to leave the airport, you know, 3 it's loud here, we're standing, there is a room where we 4 can -- a private room where we can sit and talk. 5 you have the time and you wish to come with us, we'd be 6 happy to listen to what your concerns are." 7 Q. 8 questions or wanted to talk, they could to the -- 9 A. I said, "You know, we -- if you have the Again, if And what did they say to your suggestion if they had They agreed that they would like to address some of the 10 questions that they had. 11 by the Transportation Security Administration and they had 12 some questions regarding that and some other -- other 13 questions about the reasons why he was not allowed to fly. 14 Q. So where did you go? 15 A. We went into a secure area of the airport. 16 it's a conference room that's controlled or belongs to the 17 Portland Police Bureau. 18 Q. Describe this room. 19 A. It looks like a normal conference table. 20 fairly large room with a large table, with chairs all the 21 way around it, and the space looked like there were offices 22 on either side. 23 Q. Like a conference room-type area? 24 A. Just a conference room, correct. 25 Q. And just to give us some sort of timing, what time of They were given some information I believe What kind of room are we -It has a Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 65 of 144 501 Petrie - D 1 day is this that you're at the airport? 2 A. It was sometime, I believe, about 8:30 or so. 3 Q. In the evening? 4 A. In the evening. 5 Q. And so you went to this conference room. 6 that conversation occurred in the conference room. 7 A. 8 identification, and, you know, we listened to their concerns 9 and possibly if we understood all the circumstances, all the Again, we introduced ourselves. Tell us how We showed them our 10 facts regarding about Mohamed, maybe we would be able to 11 help them with some of their questions possibly at a future 12 date. 13 Q. 14 conversation? 15 A. 16 much dominated the conversation. 17 participated. 18 unless he was addressed directly. 19 Q. 20 going through the details of what he said, just the 21 substance? 22 A. 23 allowed to fly because the year previously Mohamed had 24 apparently showed an interest in traveling to Yemen and at 25 that time the father had gone to the FBI in Portland with And who spoke at this -- who spoke first at this I believe it was Mohamed's father and -- and he pretty And then also his mother And Mohamed did not really participate at all And the father's concerns generally were what, without His main concern was he believed Mohamed was not Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 66 of 144 502 Petrie - D 1 concerns about his son wanting to go to Yemen, and he had 2 taken the passport away so that Mohamed would not have 3 access to it. 4 Q. 5 were? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. And did you try to address those in terms of whether 8 you could answer any of his questions? 9 A. And so did you listen to what the father's concerns We listened. We said, you know, the more we understood 10 about Mohamed, about his situation, about what's happened 11 with him, what's going on with him, we would be in a better 12 position to possibly -- possibly address why he was not 13 allowed to fly. 14 Q. 15 opportunity to ask the defendant any questions? 16 A. 17 Mohamed directly, and I asked him if he had ever purchased a 18 ticket to fly to Yemen, and he said he had not. 19 if he had ever attempted to get a visa to go to Yemen or 20 obtain a visa, and he said he had not. 21 what his interests -- what his connection is to Yemen, does 22 he know somebody there, and at that time he mentioned that 23 he knew somebody named Amr. 24 Q. 25 any questions? And did you then address -- did you get a chance or When his father talked about Yemen, I did address I asked him I then asked him And when he mentioned that name, did you follow up with Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 67 of 144 503 Petrie - D 1 A. 2 said he didn't have a full name. 3 by Amr," but he's a Saudi, and he lived in Portland at one 4 time. 5 Q. And was he able to give any other details? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did you ask for other details? 8 A. I didn't really ask for further details at that time, 9 because I believe I knew who he was speaking about, and I I did. I said what can you tell us about Amr? And he He says, "I only know him He didn't give us any further details. 10 did not want to indicate to Mohamed that we had any 11 extraordinary interest in Amr or that we had any 12 pre-knowledge of Amr, because he was also subject to 13 investigation at that time. 14 Q. And did you believe he was referring to Amro Al-Ali? 15 A. That's who I believe he was referring to. 16 Q. Did you ask the defendant about what he thought might 17 have caused his concern about being able to fly? 18 A. 19 willing to talk to us about it or expand about it, what, in 20 his own mind, may have put him in that situation, and I gave 21 several examples. 22 associates, possibly online activity, things you have been 23 doing on the Internet, and things to that nature; any 24 contact possibly you've had with law enforcement agencies. 25 And I put it out there like that. Yeah. I wanted to get from Mohamed if he would be I said possibly acquaintances, Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 68 of 144 504 Petrie - D 1 Q. 2 activity? 3 A. 4 pertaining to sporting events. 5 sporting events and activities on the Internet. 6 did not frequent or visit radical Islamic jihadist-type 7 websites or violent-type websites. 8 Q. 9 activity on Islamic extremists websites prior to that? And did he respond to your question about Internet Yeah. He said his Internet activity is pretty much Sports. He likes to follow He said he And were you aware if he had, in fact, Internet 10 A. I was. 11 Q. So you knew that wasn't an accurate answer? 12 A. I did. 13 Q. Why did you ask him the question if you already knew 14 the answer? 15 A. 16 maybe we would get a better assessment or a better idea of 17 what was going on with him, what was going on in his mind, 18 and why he chose to visit those kind of websites, that kind 19 of thing. 20 Q. 21 that point when he went to the airport on June 14th to 22 interview him that there was a plan being developed with 23 respect to an undercover operation? 24 A. At that time, yes, I did. 25 Q. And if that plan was being developed, why did you go Because if he would open up and address that, then And you knew at that point when you -- did you know at Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 69 of 144 505 Petrie - D 1 ahead and go interview him at the airport? 2 A. 3 an opportunity to try to engage him, try to assess him, try 4 to assess what kind of threat he may pose to the community. 5 Q. 6 you answers that you knew the answers to? 7 A. 8 with us and see if we could develop a rapport with him. 9 Q. Again, you know, it was an opportunity -- we saw it as Were you also trying to assess whether he would give Correct. I wanted to test -- see if he would be honest And did your -- in your conversations with him, 10 obviously there was a larger investigation that had gone on, 11 did you disclose anything to him about the FBI and your 12 ongoing investigation of him? 13 A. No, I did not. 14 Q. Did you tell him anything about the surveillance that 15 was at the airport or anybody else that was present? 16 A. No, I did not. 17 Q. Why not? 18 A. Well, it was still part of our assessment, if he was 19 aware of those details, and that we believe he would 20 probably become more circumspect and more secretive. 21 MS. HOLSINGER: 22 THE COURT: 23 MS. HOLSINGER: 24 THE COURT: 25 MR. SADY: May I have a moment, Your Honor? Yes. I have nothing further on direct. All right. Cross-examination? Thank you, Your Honor. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 70 of 144 506 Petrie - X 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. SADY: 3 Q. 4 Oregon Police Department? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And in your 25 years as an FBI agent, you're trained in 7 conducting interrogations? 8 A. I had some training, correct. 9 Q. And you train younger agents on how to interrogate? 10 A. I was not a formal trainer with the FBI. 11 the same training that I received. 12 Q. 13 agents? 14 A. 15 soundingboard for some of the younger agents. 16 Q. 17 cross-cultural rapport to facilitate interrogations? 18 A. 19 that type of thing on cross-cultural matters. 20 Q. 21 influence a person being questioned? 22 A. 23 that subject matter goes. 24 Q. 25 rapport-building? You're currently a lieutenant with the University of I'm an acting lieutenant in an acting position. They receive But you were an informal trainer of other younger FBI I was not so much a trainer as a mentor or a And you received formal training on developing Not necessarily. I've attended various seminars and And you're aware of the social science on how to I have not had any training in social science as far as So you have had training in cross-cultural Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 71 of 144 507 Petrie - X 1 A. 2 University of Arizona. 3 studies and various subjects like that. 4 Q. 5 being able to be -- to use knowledge? 6 A. 7 That's the subject matter I would be involved with. 8 Q. 9 over cultural boundaries. I have -- I've -- I've attended seminars at the I attended some training in Islamic And that's because you want to advance FBI goals by I wanted to learn more about the subject matter. And the subject matter would include developing rapport 10 A. 11 that we deal with the FBI interviewing people or talking 12 with people developing rapport, be it cross-cultural or not. 13 Q. 14 cultural borders and within a culture? 15 A. 16 you're referring to. 17 Q. 18 in your work? 19 A. 20 people, understanding cultures, I would say correct. 21 that's what you're referring to. 22 Q. 23 social science is part of what makes a good FBI agent? 24 A. It would help you do a better job, correct. 25 Q. There are principles that get conveyed to FBI agents Developing rapport would -- in any matter, any matter So the principles of social science apply across The principles of social science, I'm not sure what Are there principles of social science that you apply Again, if they involve developing a rapport with If And that type of -- of rapport-building and learning Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 72 of 144 508 Petrie - X 1 that they should utilize in dealing with people? 2 A. 3 how to develop rapport with people. 4 Q. 5 learned and taught? 6 A. Again, I'm not an instructor. 7 Q. You certainly have learned the techniques? 8 A. I've attended training on how to conduct interviews. 9 Q. And you attended those trainings to learn techniques? 10 A. If to learn methods; techniques, I guess, if you want 11 to call them. 12 Q. 13 apply in your work? 14 A. 15 they're something you can use to advance whatever you're 16 doing, sure. 17 Q. 18 work as an FBI agent? 19 A. 20 interrogation, to help us, guide us more as a -- more as a 21 framework than as a boilerplate on how to do something. 22 Q. 23 you do your everyday work? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. So you were never a case agent in this investigation? There's various techniques that are taught as far as And those techniques are techniques that you have both And you've learned those methods and techniques to To help you in your work. If they come into play, if So you use principles of social science to advance your We use techniques, training, training we received in It's part of what you do, part of your context of how Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 73 of 144 509 Petrie - X 1 A. No, I was not. 2 Q. The case agent while you were involved was Chris 3 Henderson? 4 A. Chris Henderson. 5 Q. The case agent has the primary responsibility of the 6 direction and investigation in the case? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And he had fewer than three years of experience as the 9 case agent? 10 A. At that time, that's probably about correct, yeah. 11 Q. And he left the FBI shortly after the arrest in this 12 case? 13 A. I'm not sure what date he left the FBI. 14 Q. And you had no involvement in this case for a 15 substantial period between November and March -- November of 16 2009 to March of 2010 because you were out of the country on 17 other matters? 18 A. I was in Saudi Arabia. 19 Q. On other matters? 20 A. Other matters, yes. 21 Q. You were aware that there had been electronic 22 surveillance being conducted regarding Mohamed? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Email, text messages? 25 A. Yes. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 74 of 144 510 Petrie - X 1 Q. And telephone calls? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And that there had been physical surveillance? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And from the surveillance the FBI knew when Mohamed was 6 planning to travel? 7 A. Yes, they did. 8 Q. And they knew the flight information? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And they had emails from the -- between father and son 11 arranging for the ticket? 12 A. 13 single source or multiple sources as far as his plans to 14 travel. 15 Q. 16 the ticket? 17 A. 18 they were between the father and the son or other people. 19 Again, I think there might have been multiple sources for 20 that information. 21 Q. 22 information that Mohamed planned to work in the fisheries in 23 Alaska? 24 A. I believe that's probably correct, uh-huh. 25 Q. And that he had a job through his friend? I don't know if that information was derived from a There were emails between the father and the son about There were emails about the travel. I don't recall if And there were multiple sources that provided Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 75 of 144 511 Petrie - X 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. That he hoped to earn money in Alaska? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. The summer job was working in Alaska? 5 A. That's right. 6 Q. And you went to the airport on June 14th, 2010, with 7 the intention of talking to Mohamed? 8 A. If we had the opportunity, yes. 9 Q. And in an email the week before you heard that there 10 had been a green light to target Mohamed for an undercover 11 operation? 12 A. 13 when the undercover operation was approved, if that was a 14 week before or -- 15 Q. 16 that. 17 A. 18 undercover operation and when that was approved. 19 Q. 20 June 7th, 2010? 21 A. I don't know if I've ever seen this or not. 22 Q. Are you listed as a CC, carbon copy, on the email? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And in that email you were advised that there was a 25 green light to target Mohamed utilizing an undercover I don't recall any email a week before. I'm not sure You testified that prior to June 14th you were aware of We were aware about his travel plans. You mentioned Did you receive a -- remember receiving an email on Yes. This took place three years ago or so. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 76 of 144 512 Petrie - X 1 operative? 2 A. 3 operation, there has to be a target, so -- 4 Q. And it provided the destination of Kodiak, Alaska? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. And the departure would be scheduled for June 14th at 7 9:35? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. And of course everyone knew that he wasn't going to be To utilize an undercover -- to have an undercover 10 allowed to board the plane? 11 A. 12 that's right. 13 Q. 14 folks delegated to take action? 15 A. 16 interview. 17 Q. 18 undercover operation? 19 A. 20 he would be attempting to fly to Kodiak, Alaska. 21 Q. 22 light to target Mohamed? 23 A. 24 approved. 25 Q. I knew he would not be allowed to board the plane, And you and Special Agent Henderson were among the I was -- I was asked if I could participate in the So a week beforehand you knew he was targeted for an I knew the undercover operation was approved and that And the email you received said that you got the green The green light I assume is just another term for being Got the green light to target Mohamed? Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 77 of 144 513 Petrie - X 1 A. That's what it says in the email, correct. 2 Q. And you were involved in setting up a team of 3 surveillance agents at the airport? 4 A. No. 5 Q. You were aware there was a team of surveillance agents 6 at the airport? 7 A. Yes, I was. 8 Q. And that you were involved in planning the interview 9 beforehand? That was not my role. My role was interview. 10 A. Yeah, we did discuss the interview before. 11 Q. And you made arrangements to reserve an interview room? 12 A. If the opportunity arose that he would speak to us, we 13 did reserve the room. 14 Q. You reserved a room at the airport? 15 A. A room was available at the airport for us. 16 Q. Did you reserve the room at the airport? 17 A. I did not. 18 Q. You arranged to have an interview room available? 19 A. I did not make that arrangement. 20 my understanding is there would be a room available for us. 21 Q. 22 Department? 23 A. 24 controlled. 25 Q. Somebody did. I -- And the room available was through the Portland Police It was my understanding that the room was one that they And it was a Portland Police Department room from a Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 78 of 144 514 Petrie - X 1 secure area? 2 A. Yes, it was in a secure area. 3 Q. And on June 14th the first contact between the ticket 4 agent and Mohamed and his mother and father occurred at 5 about 8:34? 6 A. 7 Again, I didn't have him under surveillance. 8 waiting to do an interview if we had the opportunity. 9 Q. I don't really know what the -- when it took place. We were just You did have -- you were aware of the surveillance team 10 in operation? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you were aware that they had a surveillance log? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And the surveillance log reflects that he was first 15 contacted by the ticket -- at the ticket counter at about 16 8:34. 17 A. 18 what it says, I assume that's correct. 19 Q. 20 father and mother around 8:57? 21 A. Sometime after 8:30 or so. 22 Q. About 8:57? 23 A. If that's what the surveillance log says, that's 24 probably correct. 25 Q. Does that sound right? I didn't review the surveillance log; but, if that's You and the other agent approached Mohamed and his And as you approached the family, they appeared to be Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 79 of 144 515 Petrie - X 1 upset? 2 A. Yes, they were upset. 3 Q. They appeared to be stressed? 4 A. Yes, I think they were under some stress. 5 Q. They looked like they were trying to decide what to do? 6 A. Yeah, whether to -- what their next move was; if they 7 were staying or if they were leaving. 8 Q. And you were dressed in a suit? 9 A. Yes, I was. 10 Q. You had a firearm under your jacket? 11 A. I did. 12 Q. And you showed them -- you approached them and showed 13 official identification? 14 A. 15 identification, also. 16 Q. 17 be able to fly? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. That you could possibly answer some of their questions? 20 A. If we could. 21 Q. You said, "We'll try to help if we can"? 22 A. If we can answer their questions, we'll try to answer 23 some of their questions for them. 24 Q. What you said was, "We'll try to help if we can"? 25 A. We'll try to answer your questions if we can. We verbally identified ourselves, and we showed them And you told them that you understood Mohamed would not I said we'd try to help if we can. Your Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 80 of 144 516 Petrie - X 1 concerns -- we'll try to address your concerns if we can. 2 Q. You said, "We'll try to help if we can"? 3 MS. HOLSINGER: 4 THE COURT: 5 THE WITNESS: Let's go on to another I don't know if that's my exact words or not. 8 9 Sustained. subject. 6 7 Objection. THE COURT: I sustained the objection. BY MR. SADY: (Continuing) 10 Q. Do you remember testifying in this matter previously? 11 A. Yes, I do. 12 Q. Do you remember testifying that you said in direct 13 examination, "We'll try to help if we can"? 14 A. 15 Immediately when we contacted them, they were firing off 16 questions to us, and we said we'll try to help. 17 Q. 18 words. 19 A. 20 now. 21 Q. In the context, we'll try to answer the questions. I'm not asking about context. I don't know my exact words. MS. HOLSINGER: 23 THE COURT: 25 It's been several years Your best effort at -- 22 24 I'm asking about the Objection. Sustained. another subject, please, Counsel. Asked and answered. Sustained. Go into Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 81 of 144 517 Petrie - X 1 BY MR. SADY: (Continuing) 2 Q. Mohamed's father was doing most of the talking? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. He was upset? 5 A. He was upset, yes. 6 Q. You said you'd try to help if you could? 7 A. I said we would try to address his questions the best 8 we can if we understood the facts. 9 Q. Do you recall using the word "help"? 10 MS. HOLSINGER: 11 THE COURT: 12 Objection. Sustained. Asked and answered. How long will you be with this witness, Mr. Sady? 13 MR. SADY: 14 THE COURT: 15 MR. SADY: 16 THE COURT: Another 10, 15 minutes. I didn't hear you. 10 or 15 minutes, Your Honor. All right. Go ahead, then. Let's -- 17 let's avoid anything that's cumulative. 18 BY MR. SADY: (Continuing) 19 Q. You offered to go to a quieter place to talk? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you escorted them to the interview room? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. At the interview room that you had reserved, you made 24 no effort to record what occurred there? 25 A. We led the way to the interview room. No, we did not. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 82 of 144 518 Petrie - X 1 Q. 2 from the previous August had led to this problem? 3 A. That was his belief. 4 Q. And you told him that if you understood all the 5 circumstances and had all the information, you could 6 possibly develop information to help them? 7 A. 8 understood what the situation was, possibly at a future date 9 we may be able to come up with some answers for you. And the father expressed his concern that the FBI call I said if we understood your questions and we 10 Q. Do you recall testifying in this matter previously? 11 A. Yes, I do. 12 Q. Do you remember testifying what you said to them was 13 that you might develop information that might help them in 14 the future? 15 MS. HOLSINGER: 16 THE COURT: Objection. Asked and answered. The way to impeach from the deposition 17 is to read the question and the answer rather than 18 summarize. 19 20 MS. HOLSINGER: I believe this is the same question he's asked about five times. 21 THE COURT: 22 I would object. I think that's probably true. You go ahead -- you can go ahead and use the 23 deposition. 24 BY MR. SADY: (Continuing) 25 Q. That's the proper way to do it. Do you recall testifying on a previous occasion under Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 83 of 144 519 Petrie - X 1 oath? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. And do you recall being asked the question that -- do 4 you recall being asked: 5 conversation ever indicate that if the defendant spoke to 6 you, he would get -- be allowed to fly to Alaska that 7 evening? 8 A. I do recall that question. 9 Q. And do you recall responding: And did you at any point in the No, but I said if -- if 10 we did understand all the circumstances and we had all of 11 the information, possibly we might have -- be able to 12 develop information that might help you in the future or 13 maybe better answer some of your questions? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. You did not tell Mohamed and his family that you had no 16 authority to allow him to fly that night? 17 A. 18 understood he was not allowed to fly. 19 him or not allow him was not vested in myself. 20 a position to make that decision either way. 21 Q. 22 to fly that night? 23 A. 24 understand you're not able to fly." 25 had any kind of authority. I -- the only thing we said about flying is we The power to allow I was not in You didn't tell him you had no authority to allow him Again, it didn't come up within the context of "I But, no, I never said I Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 84 of 144 520 Petrie - X 1 Q. And you didn't tell him he was under FBI investigation? 2 A. I did not. 3 Q. You didn't tell him he was under electronic 4 surveillance? 5 A. No, I did not. 6 Q. And you didn't tell him that an FBI contractor had been 7 emailing Mohamed for the previous six months? 8 A. No, I did not. 9 Q. Mohamed's father told you that Mohamed had just 10 finished his first year at Oregon State? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. And that he had a friend from Oregon State who was from 13 Alaska? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. The friend was from Kodiak? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. And Mohamed intended to stay with him that summer? 18 A. That was my understanding. 19 Q. That's what you were told? 20 A. I believe that's what he told us, yeah, he planned to 21 go to Kodiak and stay with that friend. 22 Q. He was going to work in the cannery? 23 A. In the cannery and the fisheries. 24 Q. And that he might actually spend some time working on a 25 boat? Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 85 of 144 521 Petrie - X 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And Mohamed's father said that his son expressed a 3 desire to go to Yemen for religious study? 4 A. 5 FBI. 6 Q. Is that what he told you during the interview? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. And Mohamed's father thought such a trip could be 9 dangerous? That was my understanding why he first approached the 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And that he took his son's passport? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And he was concerned that the son was on a no-fly list 14 because he had called the FBI for help? 15 A. 16 allowed to fly is because of the contact he had with the FBI 17 regarding his son's trip or plans to go to Yemen. 18 Q. 19 Yemen? 20 A. I did. 21 Q. And Mohamed told you he did express a desire to go to 22 Yemen? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. He told you he never had an airline ticket? 25 A. That's correct. He believed that was the reason why his son was not And you asked Mohamed regarding intended travel to Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 86 of 144 522 Petrie - X 1 Q. And from your investigation, that's true? 2 A. As far as I know, that's true. 3 Q. And you asked if he had a visa? 4 A. And he said no. 5 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, that was truthful? 6 A. As far as I knew, that was true. 7 Q. And you asked him if he knew someone in Yemen? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And he told you he had been in touch with Amro? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. And you asked one further question? 12 A. I asked if he could expound further on that; if he 13 could tell us more about Amr; who Amr was, a full name. 14 Q. You asked who Amr was? 15 A. Yes. 16 could he provide a full name about Amr. 17 Q. 18 one point was living in the United States? 19 A. Was living in Portland, yes. 20 Q. In the report of the interview, you didn't say that you 21 had asked for a full name, did you? 22 A. 23 didn't put exactly everything we asked in there. 24 Q. 25 basically said you asked him a further question about who We asked if he could provide more information; if And he told you that Amr was a Saudi national who at No. The reporting interview was more of a summary. When you testified previously on the subject, you I Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 87 of 144 523 Petrie - X 1 Amr was and you were told he was a Saudi who lived in 2 Portland? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And there was no further question about -- that was 5 asked at that time? 6 A. 7 knew him by Amr. 8 Q. 9 said you asked for the full name? Again, I asked for a full name, but he said he only There's nothing in the report of the interview that 10 A. No. 11 Q. Do you recall testifying about this matter previously? 12 A. Yes, I do. 13 Q. And you were testifying under oath? 14 A. Yes, I was. 15 Q. And do you recall the following question being asked: 16 And he told you that -- that he was a Saudi national who had 17 lived in the United States? 18 No, not in the summary. Answer: Yes? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you asked: 21 Question: 22 about -- 23 A. Could you slow down a little bit, please? 24 Q. That was the only question you asked -- the only 25 questions you told us are the only questions you asked? Yes. No further questions about Amr? That's how I recollected he told us To Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 88 of 144 524 Petrie - X 1 the best of my recollection. 2 report; right? 3 A. 4 identify him to us. 5 Q. The questions that I read back to you were under oath? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And that was truthful when you gave it? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Truthful and complete? 10 A. It was truthful, yes. 11 the time, yes. 12 Q. 13 time? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Which was closest in the time to when they occurred? 16 A. Yes. Correct. We asked him to explain to us who Amr was and to For the questions I was asked at You answered it to the best of your ability at that 17 MR. SADY: 18 THE COURT: 19 MS. HOLSINGER: 20 THE COURT: 21 And they're not in your Nothing further, Your Honor. All right. Anything on redirect? No, Your Honor. All right. Thank you. May this witness be excused? 22 MS. HOLSINGER: 23 THE COURT: Yes, Your Honor. All right. I'll -- at this point who 24 are your next -- well, I want to make certain that I know 25 what the process is at this point. Are the next witnesses Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 89 of 144 525 1 the witnesses who are going to need the courtroom sealed? 2 MR. KNIGHT: 3 THE COURT: That's correct, Your Honor. All right. And there's a limiting 4 instruction that the parties have considered. 5 agreed to that instruction? 6 MR. KNIGHT: 7 THE COURT: Have you Yes, Your Honor. All right. All right. Members of the 8 jury, because of the involvement of the undercover agents 9 who are going to testify in this case in other 10 investigations, I am closing the courtroom to the public 11 while the agents testify. 12 undercover status. 13 relevant to this defendant and you should not consider this 14 action in any way during your deliberations. 15 This helps preserve their The closing of the courtroom is not The public is able to listen and watch this proceeding 16 by closed-circuit television without observing the 17 undercover agents. 18 on the 12th floor of this courthouse. That video feed will be to the courtroom 19 Now, at this point we're going to have our recess. 20 will go to the jury room, and we'll call you when we're 21 ready to start the testimony. 22 DEPUTY COURTROOM CLERK: 23 THE COURT: 24 25 Court's in recess. Now everybody in the courtroom just stay, please. (The jury panel leaves the courtroom.) You Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 90 of 144 526 1 THE COURT: All right. We are closing the 2 courtroom for purposes of this testimony, as I just 3 indicated. 4 video feed. The public may watch on the 12th floor through a 5 Now, with regard to the people who will be here in 6 person for the testimony of these witnesses, as I understand 7 it, everybody at counsel table is part of the defense or the 8 Government team; is that correct? 9 MR. KNIGHT: 10 THE COURT: 11 the 12th floor. 12 recess, then. 13 That's right, Your Honor. And everyone else will have to go to Any issues? Okay. All right. We'll be in (A recess was taken.) 14 DEPUTY COURTROOM CLERK: 15 THE COURT: All rise. The attorneys have an issue, as I 16 understand it, with regard to defendant's hearsay 17 objections. 18 an agreement on a limited instruction, but what's the 19 problem? 20 There was -- looked like there might have been MR. KNIGHT: I know Ms. Hay is proposing the 21 limiting instruction on the Interpol notice. 22 concern, Your Honor, is in cross-examination Mr. Sady asked 23 the witness specifically about language in the Interpol 24 notice about the one-year sentence, which seemed, very 25 clearly, based on the follow-up questions, was for the truth My only Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 91 of 144 527 1 and that's -- 2 THE COURT: 3 MR. KNIGHT: Slow down. It seems to be what? I'm sorry, Your Honor. It seems to 4 be very clear that that question was eliciting that 5 information for the truth; in other words, that the one-year 6 sentence was not very severe and therefore Mr. Al-Ali was 7 not very dangerous. 8 9 THE COURT: I didn't think it was relevant, and I don't think it should have been received. 10 MR. SADY: Your Honor, if I -- I thought I -- I 11 predicated that question on determining the state of mind of 12 the agent -- that the agent's state of mind should not have 13 been as alerted as it was based on the fact of the one-year, 14 which was a much more limited area than I would otherwise be 15 going into. 16 17 18 THE COURT: You heard my opinion on that. Go ahead. MS. HAY: Your Honor, what we were requesting is 19 because the Court admitted the Interpol information only for 20 the state of mind of the agents and the defendant that you 21 read the limiting instruction required by the Ninth Circuit. 22 I gave the clerk a marked-up page showing the limiting 23 instruction we would request, and that would say: 24 heard evidence concerning an Interpol notice. 25 you that this evidence is admitted only for the limited You just I instruct Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 92 of 144 528 1 purpose of what it means regarding the defendant's and the 2 agent's mental state and therefore you must consider it for 3 that purpose and not for any other purpose. 4 THE COURT: 5 MS. HAY: Okay. Your Honor, I think that's a required 6 instruction given the fact that the Court previously said 7 this was admitted only for the effect it had on the mental 8 state of the agent and the defendant, not for its truth. 9 And, Your Honor, I also wanted to be clear that we had 10 objections to the Court's ruling on that. 11 sustained the objection. 12 on hearsay. 13 happened here is exactly what we previewed in our pleading; 14 that is, an agent testified about the course of the 15 investigation, he put impermissible hearsay into the case, 16 his mental state is not relevant in the way the Government 17 has put this forward, and, Your Honor, the confrontation 18 clause objection that I made and the relevance objections -- 19 I know you overruled them, but I believe that that's what's 20 happened. 21 I know you You overruled our objection based You said this could come in, but I think what's THE COURT: I'm certain there's an awful lot of 22 trying to be -- attorneys trying to push through an awful 23 lot under the state of mind exception, when, in fact, they 24 are getting evidence in for the truth of the matter. 25 when there is a -- a hearsay objection made to a statement So Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 93 of 144 529 1 of the defendant or an email of the defendant, I'm going to 2 look very hard as to whether this is truly a mental state or 3 whether it's being used to avoid -- excuse me, not avoid -- 4 being used to get in evidence, and that's where I have some 5 concern. 6 Now, let me start from the beginning here. I have a 7 limiting instruction here. 8 coming in, or do you object to the form of the limiting 9 instruction? 10 MR. KNIGHT: Do you object to the evidence We have no objection to the limiting 11 instruction that the defense has offered. 12 Court on the timing of all these limiting instructions, 13 whether or not they need to be given in the middle of 14 testimony or at the end, but we have no objection to 15 limiting instructions as proposed. 16 THE COURT: Okay. We just defer the Are you objecting to the 17 limiting instruction that is set forth, then, for GOV884? 18 Are you going to object to showing mental state through that 19 material, whatever it is? 20 MR. KNIGHT: 21 MS. HAY: I don't have it in front of me. I'm sorry. Nor do I, Your Honor. Your Honor, did you mean 84? That's 22 the -- the Government is going to be offering that evidence, 23 and we are objecting that that evidence is hearsay. 24 believe the Government is suggesting that it could be 25 admitted because it's relevant to mental state. I Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 94 of 144 530 1 THE COURT: Okay. Well, let's see. I'm 2 completely turned around and mixed up then, because I 3 thought you were going to offer this -- offer a statement of 4 the defendant in this case, and what you're saying is the 5 Government is going to offer a statement of the defendant 6 which is relevant, I assume. 7 MS. HAY: Yes. And, Your Honor, the defendant's 8 statement the Government can offer, but, in this case, it's 9 a double hearsay problem. They're offering the defendant's 10 statements about what someone else said. 11 else is the hearsay problem. 12 THE COURT: So the someone I was mixed up on this one. This is 13 a -- an objection -- the Government is going to put in some 14 evidence of the statement of the defendant; is that correct, 15 Counsel? 16 MR. KNIGHT: 17 THE COURT: 18 MR. KNIGHT: Yes, I believe that -Okay. Yeah. I'm sorry, Your Honor. 19 Ms. Hay is referring to the videotapes of the defendant 20 speaking to the undercovers. 21 22 THE COURT: All right. Is there anything wrong with giving this limiting instruction? 23 MR. KNIGHT: 24 THE COURT: 25 That's what Exhibit 84 is. it? Not at all. All right. When do you want to give Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 95 of 144 531 1 2 MS. HAY: Your Honor, are you looking at the one for Government Exhibit 84? 3 THE COURT: 4 MS. HAY: I have 84 in front of me, uh-huh. So, Your Honor, when the Government says 5 they're intending to show Government Exhibit 84, a video, we 6 would like to have the Court read that limiting instruction. 7 8 9 THE COURT: I'm going to give this instruction -- when are you going to use the video? MR. KNIGHT: Your Honor, I would say we probably 10 would start -- that portion of the testimony is probably 11 tomorrow morning, if not at the end of today. 12 13 14 THE COURT: You remind me that I'm going to give this instruction. MS. HAY: And then, Your Honor, the other 15 instruction we asked, that's the limiting instruction about 16 the Interpol notice. 17 THE COURT: 18 MS. HAY: That one could be read -Slow down a little bit. Sorry. When the jury returns today, we ask that 19 you give them the instruction that we asked about the 20 Interpol notice. 21 22 That is not typed. THE COURT: All right. It's a hand -- I have 84, 90, and 91. Which one is the Interpol notice? 23 MS. HAY: 24 THE LAW CLERK: 25 MS. HAY: I gave to your clerk a handwritten. You have one -- Your Honor, there's one I wrote that Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 96 of 144 532 1 says: 2 handwriting on it. You heard evidence about the Interpol notice. 3 THE COURT: 4 somewhere. 5 do with 84, then? 6 I remember that. That's it. MS. HAY: 84. Okay. It has It's in here What do you want me to I was just using the model for 84 and 7 asking you to adopt that one for the Interpol question, 8 because we don't have a written one for the Interpol notice. 9 So it's not related to 84. 10 THE COURT: 11 MS. HAY: 12 THE COURT: 13 Oh, use this model instruction -Yes. -- for the Interpol. When do you want that given? 14 MS. HAY: After the jury returns now, Your Honor, 15 you could say -- right when they get back, you can let them 16 know that they heard evidence about the Interpol notice. 17 THE COURT: 18 MS. HAY: 19 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, Your Honor. All right. We'll go ahead with 20 this -- I'll tell you I still have a fair amount of work to 21 do on the 403 issues. 22 don't know that I'm going to get it done, so you better plan 23 on just going ahead with what you can do, and I'll try to 24 get to it tonight or tomorrow night. 25 can do. I will try and do that tonight. I That's the best that I Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 97 of 144 533 1 THE CLERK: 2 MR. KNIGHT: I will get the witness. Thank you. And, Your Honor, for 3 clarification, this is a witness who is appearing under a 4 pseudonym. 5 pseudonym, which is a single name "Youssef," which is 6 normally a proper informal form for the Court, but I wanted 7 to let the Court know that's the plan. The Government intends to refer to him by that 8 THE COURT: 9 MR. SADY: 10 All right. Bring the jury in. Your Honor, perhaps the witness should take the stand first? 11 THE COURT: 12 MR. SADY: Please speak up just a little bit. I'm concerned if the witness is coming 13 out of an unusual place, perhaps the witness should be on 14 the stand when the jury comes in. 15 16 THE COURT: the jury now. 17 18 She's walking that way. DEPUTY COURTROOM CLERK: witness. 19 20 Well, I think that Cindy is getting I'm going to get the jurors. THE COURT: over there. That's what I mean. MR. KNIGHT: 22 THE LAW CLERK: 23 MR. SADY: 24 THE LAW CLERK: shut. The witness is You're getting the jurors. 21 25 She's getting the Yes. Did you get the witness? He's walking around. Where the jury is? They're in the room with the door Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 98 of 144 534 1 THE COURT: 2 MR. KNIGHT: 3 6 At this time, Your Honor, the Government will call Youssef to the stand. 4 5 Who's going to be your first witness? THE COURT: All right. He'll take the stand and be sworn. Let's bring the -- wait. The other witness is going to 7 stay in the mediation room until this witness is completed; 8 is that right? 9 We're going to do it in segments, so -- MR. KNIGHT: We are, Your Honor. At this time, 10 because of the length of this segment, this is the only 11 person we have present right now. 12 THE COURT: 13 DEPUTY COURTROOM CLERK: 14 THE COURT: 15 Okay. All right. Bring the jury. (The jury panel enters the courtroom.) 16 THE COURT: 17 DEPUTY COURTROOM CLERK: 18 19 I'll get the jury. All right. Let's swear the witness. I'll have you stand and raise your right hand. YOUSSEF, 20 called as a witness in behalf of the Plaintiff, being first 21 duly sworn, is examined and testified as follows: 22 23 24 25 DEPUTY COURTROOM CLERK: Please seated. chair all the way forward and state your full name. Pull your Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 99 of 144 535 Youssef - D 1 MR. KNIGHT: Your Honor, since this witness is 2 testifying under a pseudonym, I would ask that he only 3 provide the pseudonym name to the Court. 4 THE WITNESS: My name is Youssef. 5 6 DIRECT EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. KNIGHT: 8 Q. 9 pseudonym? Thank you, sir. To clarify, that is, in fact, a 10 A. It is. 11 Q. Thank you. 12 A. I work for the FBI. 13 Q. And how long have you worked for the FBI? 14 A. Approximately eight and a half years. 15 Q. So since 2004? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And, just briefly, if you can tell the jury, prior to 18 the FBI what type of work did you do? 19 A. 20 business analyst. 21 Q. 22 psychological or social science training you received? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Specifically, you talked about working for the FBI. 25 Where in the FBI do you currently work or are you assigned? Where do you work? I was a software engineer, and before that I was a And in your work was there any kind of special Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 100 of 144 536 Youssef - D 1 A. In California. 2 Q. And how long have you been there, roughly? 3 A. Roughly seven and a half years. 4 Q. And I'm going to ask you some general questions at this 5 point, Agent, about undercover work. 6 specific training in undercover work? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And specifically have you had courses in undercover 9 work? And you had had some 10 A. I have. 11 Q. And have you received in conjunction with those kinds 12 of courses any specialized psychological or social science 13 training? 14 A. I have not. 15 Q. And I want to talk now a little bit about prior work 16 you have done as an undercover. 17 Prior to the case involving this defendant, had you 18 ever acted as an undercover? 19 A. I had. 20 Q. On how many occasions? 21 A. One occasion face-to-face. 22 Q. And any occasions online or on the Internet? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And prior or subsequent to your interactions with the 25 defendant, have you also done some undercover work? Multiple occasions. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 101 of 144 537 Youssef - D 1 A. I have. 2 Q. And roughly how many times have you been an in-person 3 undercover agent? 4 A. Three times. 5 Q. And you alluded to the fact that you have been online 6 multiple times as an undercover agent. 7 do you know how many times that's been? 8 A. Not exactly. 9 Q. And in addition to acting as an undercover, have you Generally speaking, Roughly 12 to 15. 10 participated in other undercover investigations? 11 A. I have. 12 Q. And, generally speaking, can you tell the jury how many 13 other undercover investigations you're familiar with or 14 you've worked with? 15 A. 16 participated in multiple. 17 Q. 18 you tell the jury in your experience, both as an undercover 19 and working on these investigations, what is the goal of an 20 undercover investigation from the point of initiation? 21 A. 22 but, once that occurs, just basically to assess the threat 23 if one exists. 24 Q. 25 is typically the goal? Well, I've run two undercover investigations, and I've I couldn't give you a number. And we talked about undercover investigations. Could To -- well, the goal is always a face-to-face meeting; And could you tell the jury why a face-to-face meeting Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 102 of 144 538 Youssef - D 1 A. 2 an opportunity to feel comfortable and to tell the truth. 3 Q. 4 term? 5 A. That's the person we're assessing. 6 Q. And you talked about being involved in a number of 7 these cases. 8 in someone being arrested, in your experience? 9 A. They do not. 10 Q. And I want to talk a little bit more about your 11 background before we get into the details of this case. 12 It moves significantly quicker and it gives the target And you use the word "target." Why do you use that What does that mean in this context? Do undercover investigations typically result First of all, Agent, do you know a little bit of 13 Arabic? 14 A. I do. 15 Q. And are you familiar, generally, with the religion of 16 Islam? 17 A. I am. 18 Q. Now, Agent, were you born in an Arabic-speaking 19 country? 20 A. I was. 21 Q. And what age did you come to the United States? 22 A. I was 16 years old. 23 Q. Thank you. 24 25 Agent, I want to now turn your attention to this defendant's case. Did you work as a face-to-face undercover Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 103 of 144 539 Youssef - D 1 agent with this defendant? 2 A. I did. 3 Q. And can you tell us generally when you first learned 4 about this case and this investigation? 5 A. 6 undercover operation beginning in June, I believe. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. Yes, 2010. 9 Q. And who contacted you about being involved potentially It was approximately one week before we initiated the So June -- would that be 2010? 10 as an undercover in this case? 11 A. 12 contacted by the original case agent. 13 Q. 14 prior to your beginning to assume an undercover role in 15 contacting him? 16 A. 17 college. 18 Anchorage, Alaska, excuse me, because his parents had called 19 the FBI, and I knew he was in contact with a known terrorist 20 in Yemen. 21 Q. 22 call the case file for the defendant? 23 A. I did not. 24 Q. And did you review other documents of surveillance or 25 reports from this defendant? It was another San Francisco agent who had been And what information did you have about this defendant Not much. I knew his age. I knew where he went to I knew he had been prevented from traveling to And, Agent, did you have access to the -- what I'll Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 104 of 144 540 Youssef - D 1 A. I did not. 2 Q. And is there a reason, Agent, that you, as an 3 undercover who's going to meet with this defendant, did not 4 delve into all this information we heard a little bit about? 5 A. 6 time, I want to make sure there's no preconceived biases. 7 want to know as little about the person, the target, as 8 possible. 9 Q. Yes. If I know I'm going to meet someone for the first I And prior to your actual contact or meeting with the 10 defendant, can you tell us what agents you were working with 11 in this process? 12 A. 13 Agent Chris Henderson, and Special Agent Elvis Chan. 14 Q. 15 located in the same office as Special Agent Trousas and 16 Henderson? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Were you located with Special Agent Chan? 19 A. I was. 20 Q. And in talking about what you did in the investigation, 21 before we tell the jury about the specifics, could you 22 describe generally what you would do and what they would do 23 in your contacts with the defendant? 24 A. 25 Mohamed, we would -- they would tell me what kinds of emails Yes, sir. Special Agent Miltiadis Trousas, Special Just to clarify the roles of folks in this, were you The case agents -- before any kind of contact with Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 105 of 144 541 Youssef - D 1 to send him, to start off the investigation. 2 Q. 3 as time went on? 4 A. As time went on, yes. 5 Q. And, specifically, did you -- were you aware of any 6 urgency in contacting the defendant in a time period in 7 which this started, in June of 2010? 8 A. I was. 9 Q. And what was that? 10 A. Well, there was a time issue. 11 with Amro Al-Ali over in Yemen. 12 stopped communicating by email for approximately two to 13 three months, I believe, and the fear was they were going to 14 reestablish contact. 15 before he made contact with Amro Al-Ali. 16 Q. 17 contacts between you and the defendant, and we've already 18 heard some testimony about these exhibits, but we're going 19 to look briefly at Exhibit 47. 20 And did you become more involved in drafting the emails He had been in contact And at some point they And the goal was to meet Mohamed And I want to turn your attention now to the actual And, again, we've heard some testimony; but, just to 21 orient everyone here, is this the first email that was sent 22 by you and Special Agent Trousas to the defendant? 23 A. Yes, it is. 24 Q. And at this stage in the investigation, was the goal to 25 get a face-to-face meeting with the defendant? Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 106 of 144 542 Youssef - D 1 A. It was. 2 Q. And so were the series of emails that followed directed 3 toward that goal? 4 A. They were. 5 Q. And I -- we've talked a little bit about this one 6 already, and I want to go to Exhibit 48. 7 defendant's response? 8 A. It was. 9 Q. And based on that, obviously very short response, was And was this the 10 there another one sent back by you two days later on 11 June 25th? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And can we see Exhibit 49? 14 back by you? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. And, again, the jury has seen it, so I want to go now 17 to Exhibit 50. 18 A. I do. 19 Q. And was this email sent by the defendant? 20 A. It was. 21 Q. And now I'm going to focus on some specific language in 22 this email, starting with small "i" there. 23 testified that this was, in fact, the defendant's email to 24 you on June 25th. 25 his email starting in the middle of the sentence starting And this is the one sent Now, do you recognize this email? And you've Could you just read to the jury briefly Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 107 of 144 543 Youssef - D 1 with the words "I will"? 2 A. 3 me that Allah will free my passage from the lands of the 4 polytheists. 5 family, and his companion wa salamu alaykum wa rahmatulah. 6 Q. Now, Agent, do you respond to this email? 7 A. I do. 8 Q. Why would you respond to the email when the defendant 9 says, "I will contact you when I am able to travel"? I will contact you when I am able to travel. Pray for Peace be upon the messenger of Allah, his 10 A. Those were my instructions. 11 Q. Those were the instructions from Special Agent Trousas? 12 A. They were. 13 Q. I want to look at Exhibit 51. 14 And is this the email you sent in response to that? 15 A. It is. 16 Q. Now, Agent, at this point in the process have you 17 become more involved in drafting these emails? 18 A. I have. 19 Q. Can you tell the jury specifically what SWT means? 20 A. In Arabic, the "S" stands for "subhanahu," the "W" 21 stands for "wa" and the "T" stands for "ta'ala," which 22 basically means ubiquitous. 23 multiple definitions for it. 24 Q. 25 this reference to Allah or religion in an email back to the Allah ubiquitous. I've seen Why are you -- to clarify here, why are you placing Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 108 of 144 544 Youssef - D 1 defendant? 2 A. 3 previous email, so I'm just using the same language. 4 Whenever you refer to Allah, you always have SWT. 5 Q. 6 another email you sent to the defendant? 7 A. It is. 8 Q. This was on July 10th -- 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. -- do you recall? 11 Well, I noticed that he leaned against religion on the I want to go ahead now to Exhibit 52. Now, is this Now, you're telling the defendant to check his hushmail 12 account? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Now, we've heard a little bit of testimony about this, 15 but there was an earlier instruction for this defendant to 16 set up a hushmail account. 17 that was done? 18 A. 19 enterprises and used by the al-Qaeda. 20 purposes. 21 agent; and, two, it was -- it was an opportunity to -- it 22 was good for us to have a simple account for evidentiary 23 purposes. 24 Q. 25 want to talk to you about the role that you're assuming in Yes. Can you explain to the jury why Hushmail accounts are commonly used in criminal And it had two One, it added credibility to me as the undercover And you made a passing reference there to al-Qaeda. I Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 109 of 144 545 Youssef - D 1 this case. 2 face-to-face contact with this defendant, what role were you 3 playing? 4 A. I was playing an al-Qaeda spotter recruiter. 5 Q. And are you purportedly an individual who's connected 6 to Amro Al-Ali? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. I want to go to the defendant's response to your 9 suggestion he check the hushmail account. As an undercover in an effort to gain a 10 that email? 11 A. He did. 12 Q. We're going to go to Exhibit 53. 13 Did he respond to Can you please read to the jury what the defendant's 14 response was? 15 A. 16 July 19th is fine. 17 Thursday. 18 Q. 19 this in an expectation of setting up a face-to-face meeting? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And is that what you're trying to do in these emails? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you responded to this specific email in Exhibit 54. 24 Please read that email, your statement. 25 A. He wrote: Yes, I am able to do that. Any time after I may be working Tuesday, Wednesday, and Call me inshallah or text me (503)488-0156. And at this point in the process this is July 16th. Alhamdilillah brother. My meeting has been moved to Is Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 110 of 144 546 Youssef - D 1 the week after. 2 complete and schedule time for us. 3 Q. 4 phrases in this email. 5 using those? 6 A. It's common words used within the Islamic community. 7 Q. And at this point are you trying to actually get the 8 meeting on the 30th scheduled? 9 A. I am. 10 Q. And we're going to look at Exhibit 55. 11 email sent to you from the defendant? 12 A. It is. 13 Q. I want you to please read his email to you. 14 A. Inshalla. 15 shaban and it is the sunna of the messenger of Allah, peace 16 be upon him, to fast the majority of this month. 17 preparation for Ramadan, so you don't end up wasting your 18 first ten days trying to get your ibada up to scale. 19 increase your worship these blessed days. 20 in good health and the good end belongs to the believers. 21 Q. 22 talk to you a little bit about. 23 is shaban? 24 A. 25 he sent. I will call you when my business is Salem Alaikoom. Again, just to clarify, there are a couple of Arabic Can you tell the jury why you're And this is an Wanted to also remind you that we are in Shaban is So May this find you Now, there are a couple of references I would like to First of all, Agent, what Based on -- I can really only answer that based on what I looked it up. It's pretty much ten days before Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 111 of 144 547 Youssef - D 1 Ramadan. 2 Q. 3 before he sent it? 4 A. I did not. 5 Q. And that gets to another question I have about your 6 interactions with this defendant. 7 later on in your interactions with the defendant, how would 8 you characterize the sophistication of his understanding of 9 religion? You say you looked it up, so did you know what it was 10 A. 11 sophisticated. 12 Q. 13 It was much higher than mine. At this point in time and He -- he was very Thank you. I want to go now -- and we're to July 20th here -- and 14 I want to go to Exhibit 56. 15 this email already and this is an email to you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And it references a voicemail? 18 A. It does. 19 Q. Had you left the defendant a voicemail prior to this? 20 A. I had. 21 Q. And what was that voicemail about? 22 A. About our upcoming meeting. 23 Q. So logistics? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And in this email does he invite you to pray at his We've heard a little bit about Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 112 of 144 548 Youssef - D 1 mosque? 2 A. He does. 3 Q. And I want to look at your response to that, which is 4 Exhibit 58. 5 A. I am. 6 Q. In this email do you tell him you're -- that you 7 essentially say you're not willing to meet with him at the 8 mosque? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. And we've heard some testimony about this, but why are 11 you telling him this? 12 gathering. 13 A. 14 places of worship. 15 Q. 16 email specifically, the sentence starting with "kuffar" and 17 ending with "others"? 18 I'm talking about. 19 A. 20 to the mosque that day. 21 Q. 22 agents before this was sent? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And I want to now direct your attention to the email he 25 sends to you that we've heard a little bit about, which is You're familiar with this email? He's invited you to a public Why are you rejecting it? Policy within the FBI prevents us from going to any And so why do you say in response to that, or in the We'll highlight that so you know what It's a reason that we came up with why I could not go And so you had some discussion about that with other Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 113 of 144 549 Youssef - D 1 Exhibit 59. 2 A. I do. 3 Q. And was this sent knowing that you would be meeting 4 roughly four days afterwards -- four days later, I should 5 say? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And the defendant makes a statement that we're going to 8 highlight. 9 that statement? Do you recognize this email? And, Agent, are you familiar with the email in 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And can you please read, starting with "I will," ending 12 with the word "brothers," which appears three lines from the 13 bottom? 14 A. 15 about your aqeeda to make sure you are not a spy yourself, 16 which of course leads me to ask that only Amr could have 17 given you my truthbespoken email or one or two other 18 brothers. 19 Q. 20 number of undercover operations in a variety of capacities. 21 Did this email or his statement about questions to you cause 22 you any operational concern? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Can you explain to the jury what that was? 25 A. Well, as I stated earlier, he had been in contact with I will have a set of questions for you when we meet Now, Agent, you testified you have been involved in a Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 114 of 144 550 Youssef - D 1 an Amro Al-Ali, and our fear was he was going to reestablish 2 contact. 3 to me via email, it would impede our operation. 4 Q. 5 does that mean? 6 A. 7 further. 8 Q. 9 Mr. Al-Ali here? And you used the phrase "impede our operation." What It would keep us from being able to assess him any How would that possibly happen, given the reference to 10 A. 11 email. 12 Q. 13 And if he does so, he mentions he had been talking Well, we knew that he had been in contact with him via Thank you. And so this is two days -- or, pardon me, this is the 14 26th. 15 A. I did. 16 Q. And we're going to look at that in Exhibit 60. 17 And did you respond to this email? Now, I want to specifically direct your attention to 18 the second sentence with the brother there. 19 brother from Oregon. 20 meeting that a brother from Oregon who is far away has 21 vouched for you. 22 meeting? 23 A. I'm applying that Amro Al-Ali has vouched for me. 24 Q. You said "implying." 25 A. We hadn't discussed all the operational concerns before It says a Why are you telling him prior to your What does that mean, leading up to this Why are you not just stating? Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 115 of 144 551 Youssef - D 1 we saw him, so we were keeping it vague to give us time to 2 come up with a solid story. 3 Q. And by "story," are you referring again to Mr. Al-Ali? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Now, this is done on the 28th. 6 The meeting is to take place in two days. 7 actual meeting, do you also exchange a few phone calls with 8 the defendant? 9 A. We do, yes. 10 Q. And are those about logistics and where to meet? 11 A. They are. 12 Q. I want to take your attention now to that day, 13 July 30th of 2010. 14 meeting itself, did you meet prior to the meeting to talk 15 with other agents about some of the operational details? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And at this point in the investigation, what is the 18 concern -- what are the interests you have going into a 19 first face-to-face meeting like this? 20 A. 21 Amro Al-Ali that I couldn't answer. 22 Q. 23 that eventually? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Can you explain to the jury about what you and the This is a Wednesday. Prior to the Before we talk a little bit about the The concern was he was going to ask me questions about And so did you devise a method or means to deal with Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 116 of 144 552 Youssef - D 1 agents came up with? 2 A. 3 an ihataa, I-H-A-T-A-A, in Arabic. 4 this council as a group brothers, a group of Muslim 5 brothers. 6 Mohamed. 7 recruiter, an email with Mohamed's email address and his 8 full name with instructions to contact him. 9 me from Amro Al-Ali, if that makes sense. We came up with this idea of a council. We called it We were referring to Amro Al-Ali will have vouched to the council for In turn, they emailed me, the spotter, the This separated 10 Q. Was it designed to give you some operational cover? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you also discuss at this meeting a series of options 13 that you will plan to give the defendant during the meeting 14 if it comes up? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now I want to actually turn your attention to the 17 meeting itself. 18 what time of day it was that you met and where you met and 19 we'll look at some pictures. 20 A. 21 July 30th in downtown Portland. 22 Q. We'll look at Exhibit 254-1. 23 A. It's Mohamed walking towards Embassy Suites. 24 Q. And this is after you have met? 25 A. Yes. Examples. Why don't you generally describe for us I met the defendant at approximately 11:30 a.m. on What's this a picture of? Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 117 of 144 553 Youssef - D 1 Q. 2 I noticed, Agent, you seem to be dressed somewhat formally. 3 Can you explain to the jury why you're that way or why 4 you're appearing that way? 5 A. 6 would travel to the different mosques and I had colleagues 7 that were in government. 8 Q. And that's a story as an al-Qaeda recruiter or spotter? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. We're going to talk about this later, but at this point 11 in time do you have a recording device in your pocket? 12 A. I did. 13 Q. And the recording device you later determined did not 14 work on this particular day? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. You didn't -- well, tell the jury when you learned it 17 did not work. 18 A. A couple of weeks after the fact, I believe. 19 Q. So you assumed it was working during this meeting? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. You're on -- you're walking down the street here, and 22 next we're going to look at Exhibit 257-3. 23 what this is? 24 A. That's the lobby of the Embassy Suites. 25 Q. And this is here in downtown Portland? And you already talked about what time of day it was. The role I was playing was more of a political role. I That was part of my story. Can you tell us Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 118 of 144 554 Youssef - D 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And is this where you and the defendant walked after 3 meeting there on the street that day? 4 A. It is. 5 Q. And how long did it take you to walk up here, just to 6 give the jury some sense of time? 7 A. Approximately ten minutes. 8 Q. And while you were walking there, what kind of 9 discussion were you having with him? 10 A. 11 rapport. 12 me about his childhood and where he was going to school and 13 things of that nature. 14 Q. 15 can tell the jury what that means and why it's important in 16 any kind of undercover work. 17 A. 18 assessing because you want them to feel comfortable with 19 you, and when they feel comfortable with you, they are more 20 likely to tell you the truth. 21 much more difficult to assess them. 22 Q. And that's based on your experience? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And now, just so you can give the jury an idea, and I 25 think you'll be able to do this, if you can maybe draw on You know, we were just chatting in an effort to build We didn't talk about anything specific. He told And you mention the word "rapport," and I wonder if you It's important to build a rapport with anybody you're When they feel guarded, it's Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 119 of 144 555 Youssef - D 1 the screen where you sat down with the defendant when you 2 came in. 3 Okay. 4 to -- 5 A. See if it will let you do that. We see something moving around. We're going It was right in that area. 6 MS. COOKE: Try it now. 7 BY MR. KNIGHT: (Continuing) 8 Q. 9 you -- you're sort of seated back there in the corner? There we go. You have put a little circle. So are 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And how close are you to one another? 12 A. Four feet in front of each other, approximately. 13 Q. Seated across from each other? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Why don't you describe for the jury how the 16 conversation begins. 17 A. 18 being a good Muslim. 19 Q. 20 into this? 21 A. 22 Whenever he communicates to me, he defers to religion. 23 Q. What did he tell you? 24 A. He tells me that he had been writing poetry and 25 articles and that several of his articles had been published What do you ask him? I asked him what he had been doing lately to continue And so we're clear, why are you introducing religion Why do you ask him that question? Seems to be the item he's most comfortable with. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 120 of 144 556 Youssef - D 1 in Jihad Recollections. 2 Q. And what did he ask you next? 3 A. He asked me how I got his email address. 4 Q. And this was the area that you had discussed earlier 5 that you were potentially concerned about? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. What did you say? 8 A. I said that the council had emailed me his name and 9 email address. 10 Q. 11 explanation? 12 A. 13 response to that was I'm not a hundred percent sure if I 14 knew who Amro Al-Ali is, but if it's the person I'm thinking 15 of -- and I went ahead what -- I described what he looked 16 like. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. I said that I -- if I met him, I would have met him 19 just in passing. 20 Q. Why did you give a vague answer to that question? 21 A. Well, because I didn't know much about Amro Al-Ali. 22 Q. And after that portion of the discussion, what did you 23 ask him? 24 A. I asked him if he would be able to travel. 25 Q. Now, why are you asking him something like this in -- And did he ask any follow-up questions to that He asked me if I had been in contact with Amro, and my Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 121 of 144 557 Youssef - D 1 minutes into the meeting? 2 A. 3 see if he would tell me the truth that his parents had 4 contacted the FBI. 5 that he had been prevented from traveling to Anchorage and 6 that he had been talked to by an FBI agent. 7 Q. What was his response to the question? 8 A. He said everything, but he omitted the part about the 9 FBI. Well, I'm gauging how comfortable he is. I wanted to I wanted to know if he would tell me He didn't bring up the FBI at all. He said his 10 parents had betrayed him, that his father had taken his 11 passport, that he was prevented from traveling to 12 Anchorage and -- or prevented from traveling. 13 Q. 14 or ask him? 15 A. I asked him what he was willing to do for the cause. 16 Q. What does that mean? 17 A. I was implying jihad. 18 Q. Well, now, why were you implying jihad at this point in 19 the conversation? 20 A. 21 appeared to trust me. 22 Q. 23 him? 24 A. I am a recruiter for al-Qaeda. 25 Q. And what did he say in response to that general After that portion of the discussion, what did you say He appeared comfortable with me. At this point he And, again, what was your role in this meeting with Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 122 of 144 558 Youssef - D 1 question? 2 A. 3 the United States, but then he had read a hadith. 4 Q. What's a hadith? 5 A. A hadith is a record of all the sayings and practices 6 of the Prophet Mohammed and people today use them as 7 tools -- Muslims, I mean -- use them as tools for making 8 decisions about their lives. 9 Q. He said originally he had planned to wage war within To give us some context, roughly how far into the 10 meeting did he say he had wanted to wage war on the United 11 States? 12 A. Approximately two minutes. 13 Q. When you say two minutes, you're talking about the time 14 inside of the hotel? 15 A. Yes, maybe 12 minutes total. 16 Q. And in response to that, what did you tell him? 17 A. Well, he said he had read a hadith and that -- that 18 particular night he had gone to sleep and he had a dream 19 about the mountains of Yemen, and he dreamt that he traveled 20 to Yemen, was provided with training, and went to 21 Afghanistan where he led an army against the kuffar or the 22 unbelievers. 23 Q. 24 anything in particular? 25 A. After he discussed this dream, did you tell him I said it was a good dream, but he probably shouldn't Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 123 of 144 559 Youssef - D 1 tell anybody. 2 Q. 3 him? 4 A. No, I was not. 5 Q. Why did you tell him that? 6 A. For operational security, it's something you just don't 7 want to speak about to friends and family. 8 Q. 9 do for the cause? And why did you say that? Were you trying to isolate I was -- And did you ask him again at this point what he would 10 A. I did. 11 Q. And why did you steer the conversation back to that 12 question? 13 A. 14 were in the past, and I was curious what his plans were 15 currently. 16 Q. And what did he say? 17 A. He said he could do anything. 18 Q. What did you say in response to that? 19 A. I told him that I couldn't tell him what he wanted to 20 do. It had to come from his heart. 21 Allah. 22 Muslim. 23 Q. 24 testimony about this -- but what those five options you gave 25 him were. Because he hadn't answered it. He said what his plans It had to come from And I gave him five examples how you could be a good Why don't you describe to the jury -- we've heard some Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 124 of 144 560 Youssef - D 1 A. 2 five times a day. 3 You're an engineering student. 4 we could use engineers overseas. 5 doctor. 6 three, raise money for the brothers. 7 number four, become operational. 8 a martyr. 9 Q. Sure. I said to be a good Muslim you could just pray Good Muslims pray five times a day. Get your degree. I'm sure Better yet, go become a The brothers need doctors overseas. Option number We need money. Option Option number five, become And did he display any surprise or shock that you're 10 introducing these kinds of options to him 20 minutes, or so, 11 after meeting him for the first time? 12 A. He did not. 13 Q. What did he say in response to this list of options? 14 A. He said he would like to become operational. 15 Q. How quickly did he respond with that response? 16 A. Right after the previous question. 17 conversation. 18 Q. 19 "operational"? 20 A. I did. 21 Q. What did he say? 22 A. He talked about -- he said doing like the other 23 brothers do when they get a car, fill it with explosives, 24 park it near a target location, and detonate the vehicle. 25 Q. 13 minutes into the When he said that, did you ask him what he meant by Did you ask him some more specific follow-up questions? Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 125 of 144 561 Youssef - D 1 A. 2 he -- he said that he thought about Washington, D.C., 3 because of all the government buildings that were there. 4 And I asked him if he knew his way around Washington, D.C. 5 He said he did not. 6 Q. 7 Portland area? 8 A. I did. 9 Q. Why were you asking this? 10 A. To -- I'm still assessing him to see if he would be 11 willing to do anything in the Portland area. 12 Q. I -- 13 A. Plus, I know that he knows his way in and out of 14 Portland. 15 Q. What else did you ask him? 16 A. Well, I told him that I had a brother that could help 17 him with explosives, and I told him to research possible 18 places within the Portland area as possible targets. 19 Q. 20 are you suggesting that he research possible targets if your 21 role is to assess? 22 A. 23 resolve, because he may leave that day and I may never hear 24 from him again. 25 Q. I asked him if he had a target location in mind, and And did you ask him then if he was familiar with the And now why after this conversation you just described I'm still assessing. At this point I'm assessing his So do you want to see if he's serious? Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 126 of 144 562 Youssef - D 1 A. I am -- I do. 2 Q. And what happens after this part of the conversation to 3 the meeting? 4 A. 5 other, go our separate ways. 6 Q. 7 total? 8 A. Approximately 30 minutes total. 9 Q. Now, just to clarify a few things, you testified We depart the Embassy Suites, say goodbye to each And about roughly how long does the meeting last in 10 briefly that you learned that this meeting was not recorded. 11 A. I did. 12 Q. And you learned that later on? 13 A. I did. 14 Q. You said roughly a week or so. 15 A. Yeah, something like that. 16 Q. Immediately following this meeting, did you do a 17 post-meeting debriefing? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And did you meet with Agent Chan? 20 A. I did. 21 Q. And did you review what you had heard and seen minutes 22 before down in the lobby? 23 A. I did. 24 Q. Did he take notes from what you said and draft an 25 internal report? Two weeks? Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 127 of 144 563 Youssef - D 1 A. He did. 2 Q. Did that summarize the meeting? 3 A. It did. 4 Q. Did you review that report when it was finalized? 5 A. I did. 6 Q. And did that report summarize your testimony here 7 today? 8 A. It did. 9 Q. And what you heard there that day? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And did you sign off on that report, so we're clear, 12 before you knew that the recording device on this day did 13 not work? 14 A. I did. 15 Q. So was that an accurate recordation of what you saw and 16 heard? 17 A. It was. 18 Q. And is what you're telling the jury here today what you 19 remember hearing that day with this defendant? 20 A. It is. 21 Q. Now I want to draw your attention now to communication 22 you had with the defendant immediately following this 23 meeting. 24 this email? 25 A. I do. We're going to go to Exhibit 63. Do you recognize Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 128 of 144 564 Youssef - D 1 Q. And who's that sent by? 2 A. By Mohamed. 3 Q. And what's the date it was sent? 4 A. The same -- July 30th. 5 Q. Same day you met. 6 A. Approximately 3:13 p.m. 7 Q. So that is three and a half, four hours after you met? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. So I want you to read the first paragraph, the full Same day we met. Can you tell a time on that? 10 text there, to the jury, please. 11 A. 12 to go over and think about inshallah. 13 will tell you also about the work I have done. 14 check on Jihad Recollections one, two, and three, under the 15 name of Ibn al-Mubarak. 16 Shape Without Weights, and it was highly controversial in 17 the media and was talked about for weeks. 18 Q. 19 of attachments to the email? 20 A. There were. 21 Q. Did you review those at the time? 22 A. I did. 23 Q. And were they articles written by the defendant? 24 A. They were. 25 Q. Under the pen name of Ibn al-Mubarak? I have came up with a decision about what you asked me Next time you visit I Then you can My first one is called Staying in And, Agent, you note here, as well, there were a number Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 129 of 144 565 Youssef - D 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. And did you ask him to send you these particular items, 3 these articles, from Jihad Recollections? 4 A. I did not. 5 Q. And I'm going to look at these to see if you recall 6 seeing them. 7 did he send you a link to the article? 8 A. He did. 9 Q. Were you able to confirm with the link they actually We'll go to 63, number two. Just to clarify, 10 attached the article? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And is this the link to the article that was attached 13 to the first -- to the email there? 14 A. 15 verified the links. 16 Q. 17 Shape Without Weights? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And, as well, did he also send you two other articles 20 attached under the pen name Ibn al-Mubarak? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. I want to look -- did you actually have a chance to 23 review and read those? 24 A. I did. 25 Q. Let's look at your response to his email, Exhibit 66. This is the link. Special Agent Chan was the one who He sent me attachments, I believe. So you confirmed that this was, in fact, Getting in Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 130 of 144 566 Youssef - D 1 This was sent on what day? 2 A. On August 1st. 3 Q. This is your response to him? 4 A. It is. 5 Q. Please read this to the jury. 6 A. Jazakallah khairan for all of this. 7 talented and al hamdilillah I'm very pleased to have met 8 you. 9 Brother, if I needed to talk to you on the phone, can I Brother, you are Inshallah we will see each other again very soon. 10 count on you to get a prepaid phone? 11 discuss anything on your regular phone. 12 I will email you when I need to talk. 13 try hard to come back soon. 14 salem alaikoom. 15 Q. 16 defendant that he's talented? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Why are you telling him this? 19 A. It's an effort for him to be comfortable with me. 20 need him to trust me, and praise helps with that. 21 Q. So part of that is building a rapport and trust? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And then in this email, as well, there's a discussion 24 of getting a prepaid phone. 25 A. I don't want to Don't get one yet. Also, I'm going to Again jazakallah khairan wa Eight or nine words into this you're telling the That's correct. I Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 131 of 144 567 Youssef - D 1 Q. 2 the suggestion that he get a separate telephone? 3 A. 4 credibility issue and it was an operational issue. 5 Credibility just shows that I am taking every precaution to 6 keep things undercover and -- excuse me, I'm drawing a 7 blank. 8 Q. We're talking about the prepaid phone. 9 A. So -- so it was credibility, plus we have everything in Can you explain to the jury operationally why there's At the time the way it was brought up to me it was a Sorry. 10 one device that we can use for evidentiary purposes. 11 Q. Thank you. 12 A. Sorry. 13 operational standpoint, in the unlikely event somebody was 14 to get a hold of his phone, his regular phone, and go 15 through it for whatever reason -- we were texting back and 16 forth -- we didn't want that to happen. 17 Q. 18 know what was going on? 19 A. 20 would prevent me from continuing on with my assessment. 21 Q. 22 at this point? 23 A. 24 willing to move forward with the plans. 25 Q. If I could add one more thing? Why not? From an Why wouldn't you want friends or family to Well, we didn't want anyone to call the police. It And why do you need to continue on with an assessment At this particular point I still don't believe he's Why not? Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 132 of 144 568 Youssef - D 1 A. 2 I figured it was all talk. 3 Q. 4 is Exhibit 67. 5 A. It is. 6 Q. And, specifically, so there's an agreement to get the 7 prepaid phone. 8 to exchange emails with him? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And is this in anticipation of a second face-to-face 11 meeting? 12 A. It is. 13 Q. And I want to go to Exhibit 69. 14 this email -- well, why don't you tell us. 15 August 4th. 16 A. 17 meeting and he's looking forward to breaking fast with us, 18 and he provided me with an article that was attached. 19 Q. 20 about some of the other things he sent you, but did you ask 21 him for this written material, additional article? 22 A. I did not. 23 Q. And on just a few days later, on the 7th, you respond 24 to the defendant with a more concrete email -- I'm sorry, 25 about the meeting. I -- based on what he said, there's nothing concrete. Now I want to go to his response to this email, which And this is sent that same day? After this email is sent, are you continuing And it sounds like in This is What's he generally telling you in this email? That he would be available to meet on our second Now, he provided you with an article, and we will talk That's going to be Exhibit 71. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 133 of 144 569 Youssef - D 1 A. I did. 2 Q. All right. 3 what this email here is saying? 4 A. 5 sure up our plans to meet next. 6 Q. Is that -- sorry. 7 A. Also, not to speak to anybody, but to be very careful 8 with what he speaks about. 9 Q. And why are you doing that? 10 A. Suring up the plans or -- 11 Q. Specifically telling him to be careful who he speaks 12 to? 13 A. 14 calling the police. 15 Q. 16 of the investigation? 17 A. There is. 18 Q. Having looked at that, let's take a look at the 19 defendant's response in Exhibit 72. 20 please read the defendant's response here to the jury? 21 A. 22 Agent, just to briefly describe to the jury Basically I'm telling him that I will contact him to For the same reasons I just said. We don't want anyone Is there still a concern about Mr. Al-Ali at this point Now, Agent, can you Sure. Don't worry inshallah. I may give you some tadhkeer, 23 but I'm a big believer in the saying of the profit S-A-W-S, 24 the believer is not stung from the same hole twice. 25 Therefore, as Muslims, we learn from our own and others' Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 134 of 144 570 Youssef - D 1 mistakes as well. 2 and tranquility to descend upon you and your eeman to reach 3 your throat to the point your tongue delights in its 4 sweetness ameen. 5 Q. 6 you again a few days later on August 11th? 7 A. He does. 8 Q. We were going to look at Exhibit 73. 9 All right. My Allah keep you under his protection Thank you. Does the defendant then email I'd like you to read this email, and we're going to 10 talk about the attachments to it. 11 A. 12 was 15, was inevitably lost in shutdown forums and letters, 13 but here are some recent ones bi'dnillah. 14 Q. Was there some poetry attached to this? 15 A. There was. 16 Q. I would like you to go to page number 3, which was a 17 poem of the defendant. Attached inshallah some of my best old work from when I 18 THE COURT: 19 MS. HAY: 20 THE COURT: 21 MR. KNIGHT: Exhibit 73. Any objection? No objection. Received. We're going to look at page 3 of 22 Exhibit 73. 23 BY MR. KNIGHT: (Continuing) 24 Q. 25 email? Now, Agent, was this a poem that was attached to this Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 135 of 144 571 Youssef - D 1 A. It was. 2 Q. Again, did you ask him for his poetry? 3 A. I did not. 4 Q. I'd like you to read this poem in its entirety to the 5 jury. 6 A. 7 provision from the booty of war and I never back down cuz 8 I'm ready for more. 9 happiest. The Dear Martyr Whose Story I Shall Tell. I eat my They cry from positions while I laugh The Lord laughs and I laugh, the life is a test. 10 Up from the peaks, I look down. 11 deafening sound. 12 to the Christian my dagger hits his chest. 13 me at night, unleash me tomorrow, my sheath is so tight. 14 I hush it with my turban, but it cries with a muscle. 15 you not love me, brother? 16 He is my friend and he loves my AK. 17 death and glorious days. 18 me farewell. 19 So I left them for a truck, and I wondered at its saddle. 20 Unload on these kafirs, bury them in the gravel. 21 air hit my face and the sky warmed my hair. 22 weapon with Shahada declared. 23 wiping my face. 24 disgraced. 25 Q. Gunfire, gunfire, what a White snowcaps and bullets direct. O woe It whispers to So Do You have saddened my struggle. They reminisce on near For they love me as well and bid Go on, dear martyr, your story we will tell. All right. The fresh I exploded my And there stood the hoor, Today you are honored and the kafir Thank you. Agent, we're at August 11 of Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 136 of 144 572 Youssef - D 1 the 2010 after your first meeting. 2 poems at that time? 3 A. I had. 4 Q. And can you give the jury some idea of your state of 5 mind at this point of the investigation about your 6 assessment or your thinking? 7 A. 8 radical to me, but I still don't believe he would be willing 9 to martyr himself, despite the fact this poem was about Did you review these It's becoming slightly more as if -- he's looking more 10 martyrdom. 11 Q. 12 the August 19th meeting? 13 A. Yes, we do. 14 Q. And I want to look specifically at your response to 15 him. 16 And based on this, do you continue to move forward with I'm going to look at Exhibit 75, an email. Is this what you sent in response? 17 A. It is. 18 Q. Let's take a look -- I want to ask you. 19 complimenting his work and specifically the Staying in Shape 20 Without Weights article. 21 complimenting him, but what is your assessment, not just in 22 your role, but as an FBI agent, of his writing ability at 23 this point? 24 A. He's a talented writer. 25 Q. I want to go ahead as we get to the meeting on the You're You talked a little bit about Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 137 of 144 573 Youssef - D 1 19th. 2 idea of how many of these emails that are being sent right 3 before this next face-to-face meeting. 4 We were going to look at Exhibit 76 and 77 to get an Is this email simply a logistical email, as you 5 understood it? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And, just briefly, to the jury, can you explain what 8 we're doing -- what the defendant appears to be doing in 9 this email? 10 A. 11 I'm going to be in Portland and wanted to know if he could 12 meet either during his lunch break or after 10:00 p.m. 13 Q. 14 the defendant? 15 A. It is. 16 Q. So he has sent you two successive emails about 17 scheduling? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. And as we get closer to the date here, I want to look 20 at 78. 21 A. It is. 22 Q. And, finally, one more email. 23 the defendant? 24 A. It is. 25 Q. And this is on the 18th you've told the jury you're Well, he's telling me that he's working the day that And let's go to 77, please. Is this another email from Is this an email you sent him? 79. And is this from Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 138 of 144 574 Youssef - D 1 planning to meet the next day. 2 call with him on the 18th to talk about logistics? 3 A. I did. 4 Q. Was the plan to meet in the same spot you met on 5 July 30th? 6 A. It was. 7 Q. And that was in downtown Portland? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And we're going to turn our attention here to this Did you have a brief phone 10 face-to-face meeting on the 19th here in a moment. 11 you generally describe where you met; what time it was and 12 where you go after you meet? 13 some video to the jury of you in the hotel. 14 A. 15 6:00-ish, I think. We walked over to a restaurant where we 16 grabbed some food. We just chat on the way and we went back 17 to the Embassy Suites to meet somebody. 18 introduce him to an explosives expert. 19 Q. 20 person earlier on. 21 identified as Hussein? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Can you describe for the jury what role he is playing, 24 so when we see this video there's some context here? 25 A. Sure. Could And then we're going to show We met downtown Portland in the evening time, I was going to You say "explosives expert," you alluded to a second Is this an undercover agent who's been He is an explosives expert specifically for al-Qaeda, Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 139 of 144 575 Youssef - D 1 and in this particular scenario, I'm supposed to be selling 2 Mohamed as a potential martyr to the explosives expert so 3 that the explosives expert will agree or disagree to move 4 forward with creating a bomb for us. 5 Q. 6 scenario? 7 second undercover get introduced at this stage? 8 A. 9 spotter. Why are you assuming these different roles in this You talked about assessment, but why does a For believability, I was posing as a recruiter and a It would be believable if I was a spotter, 10 recruiter, and an explosive expert. 11 Q. 12 trying to emulate specific roles of individuals involved in 13 terrorist activities? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Thank you, Agent. 16 Exhibit 82, which is an audio/video clip that we broadcast 17 here to the parties, and it's got a video. 18 play it. 19 a transcript along with this, so we'll go ahead and play 20 this and we'll have some questions before it's played. 21 22 When you say "believability," are you at this point We were going to now play We're going to It runs 15 minutes long, and there will be some -- THE COURT: Do you want any explanation before this video is played? 23 MS. HAY: 24 THE COURT: 25 THE COURT REPORTER: Not this one, Your Honor. Okay. Thank you. Pam, can you clarify with the Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 140 of 144 576 Youssef - D 1 judge if I should take this down? 2 DEPUTY COURTROOM CLERK: 3 4 5 6 Judge, do you want the court reporter to take this part down? THE COURT: This is a video. Let's make sure everybody agrees. Can the court reporter not take it down? MS. HAY: Your Honor, I think what we agreed with 7 the Government is that we would each submit a clip for the 8 record to be inserted in the transcript. 9 agree on the line number, we'll give it to the court As long as we each 10 reporter to insert later so she doesn't have to try to write 11 what she's reading on the screen. 12 MR. KNIGHT: 13 THE COURT: 14 15 16 17 18 19 That sounds reasonable. That works out? Okay. (Video played for the jury panel.) MR. KNIGHT: Pardon me a second, Agent. We're going to work on volume. Sorry. We're stopping. A little technical glitch. Day one here. DEPUTY COURTROOM CLERK: Jurors, if you want to 20 hear a little better -- give me a second to pass these out 21 to the jurors. You turn them on -- 22 A JUROR: 23 MS. HOLSINGER: 24 A JUROR: 25 MR. KNIGHT: The transcript is cut in half. It's not scrolling. That's the technical glitch? That was Exhibit 82. Your Honor, I Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 141 of 144 577 Youssef - D 1 don't know if now would be a good point to stop. 2 THE COURT: Break time? Okay. 3 recess, then, until 9:00 tomorrow morning. 4 morning, Tuesday, 9:00. Thank you. 5 DEPUTY COURTROOM CLERK: 6 THE COURT: All right. We will be in Tomorrow Let's -- here, Pam? I'm sorry? You can take the jury to 7 the jury room, and you are discharged for the day. 8 you. 9 talking to you. Thank Now, I -- I think I -- I better spend a minute just I'm sure you probably remember the things I 10 told you about not investigating anything on your own, not 11 talking to anybody. 12 instructions I'm giving you, so keep this in mind as you -- 13 if somebody starts to talk to you about it, tell them you 14 can't do it and just walk away at that point. 15 to end up with a mistrial here because somebody looks up 16 something they shouldn't have or talks to somebody they 17 shouldn't have. 18 morning. 19 20 21 22 It never loses its importance, the So thank you. We don't want We'll see you tomorrow (The jury panel leaves the courtroom.) THE COURT: Mr. Knight, when do you anticipate completing your testimony from these two witnesses? MR. KNIGHT: I would think, depending on the 23 length of cross, the entirety of the two witnesses will 24 probably take us through Thursday or Friday, I suspect. 25 don't want to speak for counsel, but I suspect there's a I Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 142 of 144 578 1 lengthy amount of cross and -- 2 MS. HAY: Your Honor, we were going to reserve our 3 cross-examination until this witness has completed his 4 testimony, so I understand the Government -- 5 THE COURT: 6 MS. HAY: 7 THE COURT: I gave you that option. Yeah. So that's sufficient. All right. On 8 that, you'll go directly through the testimony of the 9 witnesses on this segment and then cross-examination will be 10 11 12 reserved. Okay. Anything else you want to talk about at this point? 13 MS. HAY: Your Honor, there was that limiting 14 instruction about Interpol, which we can do tomorrow, and 15 there may be some other -- 16 17 THE COURT: remind me. Right. I have it right here. Just Let's make sure I have the right one. 18 MS. HAY: 19 THE COURT: 20 MR. KNIGHT: Your Honor, I'll rewrite it without -This is 084? Government 084, then. The Interpol notice is Government 21 080, and I believe Ms. Hay made a separate notation on one 22 of the documents for that exhibit, Your Honor. 23 THE COURT: 24 MS. HAY: 25 tomorrow. Well -Your Honor, I'll resubmit them for Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 143 of 144 579 1 THE COURT: 2 MS. HAY: 3 4 You'll give it to me tomorrow? Yes, I'll give it to you tomorrow morning. THE COURT: All right. We'll see you then 5 tomorrow morning. 6 understand. 7 (Proceedings were concluded on January 14, 2013, and 8 reconvened on January 15, 2013.) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 It was snowing out there today, I Not much, but it was. Okay. See you then. Case 3:10-cr-00475-KI Document 440 Filed 03/20/13 Page 144 of 144 580 1 2 C E R T I F I C A T E I certify, by signing below, that the foregoing is 3 a true and correct transcript of the record of proceedings 4 in the above-entitled cause. 5 original signature, conformed signature, or digitally signed 6 signature is not certified. A transcript without an 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 /s/Jill L. Erwin ________________________ Jill L. Erwin, RMR, CRR Date: January 14, 2013 Official Court Reporter Registered Merit Reporter Certified Realtime Reporter