zoos--(MD Fla (Expen Deposition)

United States District Cuurt, M.D. Florida,
Orlando Division.

Slurle} as Personal Representative of the Estate quntllom Carl 511,
Doomsod, for and on behalf amm oftlu' Estate of Anthony ml thor, Sr . 


CITY OF ORLANDO, a political subdivision of tlu' State of Flonda; Chin Miclim'l McCoy; Uni
Fioi'mo, and Orland Police Department. and David Burk 11m.- official capacities as Orlando
Palm Dopanmom offims, and Tnsor Int vnwign mrpommn, nofmdams

No. 6'06--cv-167l-0r1--31-DAB.
June 27,213.33
Deposl Inn of Patrick w. Smith
Name at Exwl: Patrick w. Smith
Appearances:

For Plaintiffs: moss, Bum Thomas Savy, LC
By>> Paul Brass, Esq

Merritt Island, Florida 32953

For Defendant Tascr Imemauonal: Tascr 
By>> Michael Emc. Esq a!

Scottsdale Arizona 8525-

For ofOrlando, Baud Burk, and Len Flonno: Mcwr, Bonner, Harvey, EA
Ruben Banner. Esq.

Orlando. Flonda 3280172463

Also Preset": Guna Ose.

Takcn on Thursday December 6' 2007 Al a.m.
A1-- Hman 

DEPOSITION or PATRICK w. SMITH. taken Phoenix, Arizona, on
Thursday, December 6, 2007. ar 11:01 before Regislered Professional Reponer and cemfied

Reporler_m and for m: Sm: ofArIzona.

INDEX
WITNESS.
PATRICK w. SMITH
EXAMINATION. PAGE
By Mr Brass. . 5
INDEX TO EXHIBHS

EXHIBITS  PAGE

TABLE

INDEX TO EXHIBITS (conlinucd):

EXHIBITS . PAGE

TABLE

PATRICK W. SMITH. was called as wIIrIess and, having been firsl duly sworn, lesIIficd as follows:

EXAMINATION

BY MR. moss:
Good mommg. How are you domg Ioday'!

A Good Thank you

Have you ever had your dcposllion Iakcn before"!

A. have.

0. when .5 me last Iimc you had your dcposiuon lakcn'.'

A. Probably a momh ago.

Q. Do you remember why you had your deposilion Iakcn appraxImalcly a month ago?

MR. BRAVE: Objecrian. Form.

A. I did.

Q. Approximately how long after this initial phone call did you then travel to Tucson?

A. Within a week.

Q. I assume you drove to Tucson? It's not that far from here; right?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. At that time, did Mr. Cover have a business front for TASER or was he working out of his home?

A. At that point, Mr. Cover was 73 and I was 23. I remember we sort of remarked at the 50-year difference
between us. He had retired from the company, which was then known as Tasertron, and he had sold any
interest he had in the company. It was a very small organization. I think they had two employees based in
southern California. And Jack still had a patent-license relationship with that company, so he was paid a
royalty check, but he was not actively involved in that business, although he had, on his own time,
submitted some additional inventions to the Patent and Trademark office and he was attempting to start
a new business to do a newer version of the TASER device that would use a compressed-air propulsion
system. And that patent was actually one of the patents that I had reviewed at the university of Chicago
with some degree of interest because it indicated that Mr. Cover was working on a new product.

Q. Approximately how long did this initial meeting last?

A. I'm going to say three to four hours. when I showed up at his house, he had -- it looked like a museum.
He had set out prototypes dating back to the early 19605, early concept models for the first devices all the
way up through the present time. It was really quite an extraordinary day.

Q. All the earlier devices had used gunpowder to project; is that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And had he at that point -- did he have a prototype of the compressed-air version?

A. Not yet. He had been issued a patent on the compressed-air propulsion system that he had designed,
but he had not yet built one.

Q. And after you left this initial meeting with Mr. Cover, did you have plans to meet him again?

A. Yes. We began discussions. If I had to characterize the general nature of the meeting, Jack was at a point
in his life where he was, you know, spinning down the end of his career, and he was more interested in seeing
his technology survive him, so he was looking for who would continue his life's work. And, as serendipity
would have it, I was fresh out of school and looking for what to do with my life, and so there was quite
a fit there. He became my mentor at least technologically. I had the wonderful opportunity to, well, first
negotiate a business arrangement with Mr. Cover, and then I spent three or four months working with him
in his garage building the early prototypes.

Q. Do you know what degrees, if any, Mr. Cover had?

Q. (By Mr. Bross) Can you please tell me what was different about the electrical waves, I believe you called
them, in the TASER M26 model than the earlier versions of the TASER or the TASER air gun or all the
different various models?

MR. BRAVE: Objection. Form.

THE WITNESS: The differences between the M26 and the Model 34000 Air TASER was primarily the
intensity of the individual electrical impulses. We theorized that -- just based on a lot of historical studies
and data, we know that electrical thresholds, as a function of electrical current, are fairly well-understood.
So let me just explain that.

At very low levels of electrical stimulation, there is no reaction. I mean, with really small electrical currents,
you don't feel it. There's no reaction of the body. As you start to increase the level of electrical charge or
electrical current -- and those two terms are somewhat synonymous. Current is charge per unit time, so if
we're thinking about individual pulses, we could think of charge, and then, over time, you add the pulses
up, you get current. So at very low levels, there's no reaction. As you come up with electric-current levels,
you hit what's called the sensation threshold, which means you start to feel the electrical discharge.

A lot of this work was done by a researcher -- or one of the more prominent guys who performed experiments
supporting these thresholds was a guy named Dalziel, D-a-l-z-i-e-l, around the time of the Second World
War in Berkeley. But there's numerous different studies that support this very basic concept.

So you go from no stimulation to sensation. You feel it. As you increase the intensity further, you get to
what Dalziel called the let-go threshold, and that is where you get motor-nerve and muscle stimulation. So
not only does it cause a sensation you feel, but now the muscles begin to move involuntarily.

And the reason Dalziel called it the let-go threshold was, in his studies at Berkeley, he took students and had
them hold on to two electrodes, and they would increase the electricity, and, at a certain point, the students
would say, ?Wow. Okay. I feel that,? but they could let go, do whatever. As he increased the current further,
eventually, it got to a point where it would cause the muscles in the forearm to contract and they could no
longer let go, and he termed that level the let-go threshold.

In other standards, such as the IEC No. 479, it looks at different thresholds. You would just call that the
muscular stimulation -- or motor-stimulation threshold. And then, if you keep going significantly higher,
you eventually get to the area where you get cardiac effects, you can cause ventricular fibrillation or
cardiac arrest, which is, obviously, if you're trying to design a nonlethal weapon, a bad thing.

So going from the Air TASER, we knew that we were above the stimulation threshold because, clearly, you
could feel the electricity, but we theorized, based on the fact people could work through this, that we were
below the motor-stimulation threshold. So we went to Dr. Stratbucker in late 1995 and said, ?We would
like you to run a series of experiments for us where we want to take an anesthetized pig and stimulate it
with the Air TASER waveform and then modify versions of that waveform to observe what the reactions
are in attempts to try to develop a device that can impair motor function, or can stimulate motor function,
actually.

So I worked with Nick Wold to develop a test setup where we could change some of the key circuit
parameters in a circuit that would increase either the number of pulses per second or the
amount of electrical charge in each pulse and/or the duration of each pulse, and, in 1996, we did the
study with Dr. Stratbucker where we observed the reactions of the pigs. We saw, when we stimulated this

anesthetized animal with the Air TASER, there was almost no reaction, which is what we expected, because
animals, under anesthesia, don't feel pain. You can perform surgery and they won't react.

As we increased the intensity of the discharge, we began to see signi?cant muscular activity, so the muscles
were reacting, which is what we believed would make for a more effective device in humans, and it later
turned out that that was true. So we selected a waveform that has signi?cantly more electrical charge and
has a longer pulse duration than what was used in the Air TASER.

Q. (By Mr. Bross) How did you create this duration in the M26 model?
What did you do?

MR. BRAVE: Objection to form.
MR. BONNER: Join.

THE WITNESS: At its most basic level, we increased the size of the main storage capacitor up from 0.22
microfarads to 0.88 microfarads, which resulted in a stronger-output discharge, and we increased the battery
capacity from a nine-volt battery to a stack of eight double-A batteries that would provide suf?cient power
to drive that circuit.

Q. (By Mr. Bross) Can you tell me what you mean by a stronger output.
MR. BRAVE: Objection. Form.
MR. BONNER: Join.

THE WITNESS: As we mentioned earlier, we were increasing the electrical charge in each pulse and the
duration of each pulse because we had, by this point, found in our experimentation that, indeed, that actually
caused motor stimulation, caused the muscles to contract, although not the direct effects of electricity.
The electricity stimulates the motor nerves that then stimulate the muscle. The electricity does not directly
stimulate the muscle. It's a nuanced point, but an important one.

So increasing the amount of electrical charge in each pulse would increase the charge density around the
electrodes, which we believe, by creating that charge density that's higher around the electrode, it increases
the amount of tissue around there that gets stimulated, and the motor nerves, set a little deeper in the body,
require a little more electrical charge in order to stimulate them, as we've talked about with the previous
threshold discussions, and we basically did the same thing with the Air TASER to the M26. We increased
the charge.

Q. (By Mr. Bross) How are you able to determine if the muscle contractions were caused by the motor
nerves and not the actual electricity?

A. Well, at that point in time, that was based on Dr. Stratbucker's understanding of physiology and his
extensive knowledge of the literature in this space. We subsequently proved it experimentally in later animal
studies whereby we would stimulate the test subject and measure the strength of the muscle contractions
with, for example, an M26. Then we would administer curar -- we didn't actually use curare, but a similar
nerve agent.

A. I remember that we got a phone rrom an olrner there relating to us that that case had happened. And I don't
recall ill talked Io him direclly or ii Steve Tuttle and i worked together lo respond to his request for dala. And we may
have sent e-lrlail or a fax or something.

Q. Did anyone rrom the TASER company personally go to Hamilton, Ohio?

A. We may have. I don't remember anyone going there, but i wouldn't be surprised irsomehody had.

Q. Okay. Were you personally involved in providing customer service or support in regards to the January 2002 death
olVinoent Del estia in Hollywood, Florida?

A. Idon'l recall being personally involved in that case. I remembered the Connly case because, as it turned
out, than guy swallowed a bag orcocame and, apparently, choked on it, so the cause ordeath became fairly evrdent as the
invesllgaliun went on. But I don't recall the Del Oslla case. I mean, I remember the name, bill I don'l remember being
involved In responding lo any inquiries about u,

Q, Where did you firs! learn ahour excited delirium?

MR. Objection. Form.

THE WITNESS: don'l recall where first heard about lhal phenomenon.

(Exhibit l2 was marked.)

Q. [By Mr. Bross) Sir, I'm going to show you what's marked as Plainlifls' Exhibit 12. Are you familiar wilh Ihal documenl?
A. Yes,

Q. What is that document?

A. This was a news bulletin lhal I helped Io aurhor in February of 2002.

Q. eray. Did you personally write It's got your signature on it.

A. I worked together with sueve ruttle in putting this together.

Q. Has TASER, to date, created a curriculum or literature to send to law--enforcement agencies to deal wilh the aftermth
or an in--cuslody death

MR. BRAVE: Objection. Form.

THE WITNESS: We have provided guidelines orthe types of things that, based on our experience with other agencies,
would he helpful for other agencies lo consider in the even! they have a death in police cusrody.

Q. (By Mr, Bross) Whal would I call Ihal'!

A Idon'l knowt

Q. What does TASER call in
A. Whaiever descripiive language we were jusl using.

Q. So if you were io ask someone to send a chier or police ihose documenis, whni would you call ihose doeumenis in
order ro direei one or your employees io send ii io ihe chier ofpolicc'.'

MR. BRAVE: Objection. Form.

THE WITNESS: I'm nor surei recall exacin what we were ialking about, You asked me irwe may have seni some types
ordocumenis, and I said yes, bul I -. so what specifically did you ask me about?

Q. (By Mr, Bross) Has TASER ereared documenis or literature io send ro law-mforaemcm agencies to help ihem deal
wiih incusiody dealhs'!

MR. BRAVE: Objection, Form.

THE I would -- in were asking somebody in TASER io send inronnaiion, i would say, "Hey, do we have
a checklisi dial we could send to ehis agency orihings ihey should be oonsidenng in iheir invesiigaiion and/or response
io ehis ci-isisT'

Q. (By Mr. Eross) who helped crcalc lhis checklist?

A. Do you have a specific checklisi you wanl me lo look ai7 That's whai i would ask Tor. don-i know .. specifically.
ihcre might be several documcnis Ihat mighi meet ihai descnpiion.

Q. What would you call Illesc 
A. This is beginning Io reel circular, hull ihink 1 would call ii a min for inepniiding io In in-cuslody deaih.

Q. Okay. Who helped creaie Ihak documeni, ihen, ihe checklisi for ill-custody dcalh'!

A. Ten beginning io feel like I'm in "Groundhog Day."

Thai deseriprion may cover a number ordifiereni documenis. nor a specific doeumeni lhal's coming io mind. You
asked me inhere was an incusiody deaih and, in ihiscaiegory, what] would ask for someone to send, irilie requesi had
come to me, io police agency, and I laid you I would say, "Hey" .-- probably, I would go lo Andrew Hinz ai ihis poini
in iime, "Can you send them a checklist or ihings ihey should be oonsidering in iheir inyesiigaeion in dealing wiih ihis
crisis?" Bul ihai descnpiion -. ihere may be a number ordirrereni documenis ihai Andrew may be using or sending oui.
So you asked me for a generic descn'prion, and now you're asking me aboui a specific documeni .--

Q. Well, lcl's go through .--

A. if you'vc gm. a specific documcnl, please put ii in from or me, and I would be happy io ialk aboui ii.

Q. Okay. Well, I'm asking you io describe io me the various documenis lhal would comprise ihe type ordocuinenis than
you would send [0 an agency.

MR. BRAVE: Objection. Form.

THE WITNESS: What types ordoeuments would we send to an agency that called us with a request {or iniorrnatton
about what to do ii they had experienoed a death in polioe cuslody?

Q. (By Mr. Brass) Comet.
A. Well, I think what we would likely send that ageney would be the medical compendium so that they could provide
up-todate medieal inrotmation to the medical examiner or the homicide investigators so they would have the technical

data. 1 think we would also provide suggestions as to what types of tests they should be ensuring are done in particular.

1 know Dr, Deborah Mash strongly suggests, it there's a death in police custody, that there's an 800 number the agency
can call and arrange to have the brain tested to see it the brain shows the hallmark signs of excited delinum.

i also know that agenctes have found tt helpful to eollect evidence such as hair samples that would document whether
or not there had been chronic drug use that could have played a role.

So i think those types ordoeutnents -- I don't know what document in particular Deborah Mash uses to do that, but. for
example, there are some slides in our lratnittg course lhal speak lo these issues, so somebody might send lhem slides from
our Version l4 training, They might send them reference to the Institute for the Prevention of ln-Custody Deth and
Iheir Web slle. I believe Illey may even have ifwe have hard copies. we mighl include dial in a package
along all the technical informalion,

Q. Now in some oflhc information Ihal TASER provided [0 me during what we call Rule 26 disclosures. 1 saw a video
of individuals laSlng a buflalo. Are you familiar [hat video?

MR. BRAVE: objection. Form.

THE WITNESS: Generally speaking, probably am. But it would be helpful to see which video you're actually 
IO.

Q. (By Mr. Hross) You're generally familiar wilh that vtdeo 
A. I don't know what video you're dealing with. i know orseveral videos that might at the description you're giving me.
Q. Well, in all orthose videos, was a TASER M26 used to tase the bufinlo?

A. in none orthose videos was a TASER M26 used to laser a bullslo?

Q. Was it the X267

A. No.

Q. What device was then used to tase said buffalo?

A. it depends on which video you're rererring lo, There is a vtdeo that involves buffalo There's a separate video that
involves a white Mountain steer -- i suspect we're about the steer, not the burlalo, but that's why I'm asking,