Vinas - direct - Loonam . 1134 1 THE COURT: Excuse me? 2 MR. GOTTLIEB: No objection. 3 THE COURT: That's what I thought I heard. 4 Now, did you yourself ever come up with any ideas for 5 attacks outside of the Afghanistan--Pakistan region? 6 A Yes. 7 what were some of the ideas that you came up with? 8 A I wanted to tell these brothers that there was a good 9 target in attacking the Long Island Railroad. 10 The first plan that I talked to seriously with 11 somebody was having somebody drop off a suitcase full of 12 explosives inside the Long Island Railroad. They would leave i 13 at a certain train station and leave the suitcase on the train 14 and while the train kept on going, eventually it would 15 explode. 16 In addition to the Long Island Railroad, did you discuss 17 any other potential targets with members of al-Qaeda who were 18 directly under Abdul Hafeez' supervision? 19 A Yes. 20 what other targets did you discuss? 21 A I mentioned to attack wal--Mart would be a good idea. 22 0 Now, did you ever discuss these ideas directly with Abdul 23 Hafeez? 24 A No. 25 0 why not? BHS OCR CM CRR CSR Vinas - direct - Loonam 1135 1 A I did not like him. 2 why didn't you like him? 3 A He interfered with my plans to go take care of a personal 4 matter in Peshawar. 5 Did you ever discuss the idea to attack wal-Mart with 6 people who were under Abdul Hafeezi supervision? 7 A Yes. 8 who? 9 A Abdul Salaam. 10 what were the idea to attack Wal-Mart? 11 A You could do a bombing inside of Wal-Mart. You could 12 hide a bomb inside a product that you would return, preferably 13 a TV, and obviously you would get out of the store and then 14 eventually the bomb would explode. 15 And why did you think that attacking Wal--Mart was a good 16 idea? 17 .A It would cause a very big economic hit. wal-Mart is the 18 largest retail store in the country. 19 Let's focus on the Long Island Railroad plot that you 20 described. Did you ever discuss this idea with anyone 21 affiliated with Abdul Hafeez? 22 A Yes. 23 who did you discuss it with? 24- A Abdul Salaam. 25 when do you think is the first time that you discussed BHS OCR CM CRR CSR Vinas - direct - Loonam 1136 1 attacking the Long Island Railroad with Abdul Salaam? 2 A Summer of '08. - 3 Can you ever have more detailed discussions about a 4 potential attack on the Long Island Railroad? 5 .A Yes. 6 And did Abdul Salaam participate in these discussions? 7' A Yes.- 8 who else participated in these discussions? 9 A Younis al-Mauritani. 10 who is Younis al-Mauritani? 11 A He was first offered the position of the International 12 Operations Program before Abdul Hafeez. 13 And how did you learn that? 14- A Abdul Salaam told me. - 15 where did the discussion take place about the more 16 detailed planning for the Long Island Railroad plot? n. 17' A In Lwara. 18 Can you tell the jury about the discussions you had about 19 this plot. 20 MR. GOTTLIEB: Your Honor, objection. 21 THE COURT: Come up. 22 (Sidebar.) 23 (Continued next page.) 24 THE COURT: Yes. a_ - 25 MR. GOTTLIEB: Objection is based on relevance. BHS OCR CM CRR CSR Vinas - direct - Loonam 1137 1 THE COURT: Let me hear the connection. 2 MR. LOONAM: First, he pleaded guilty to this. I 3 assume it will be part of cross-examination. 4 Secondly, he's discussing the details and ideas for 5 how to attack New York mass transit, which includes the types 6 of operatives he would use; it includes how the bombing could 7 be carried out. 8 It's highly relevant that this information is going 9 to one of the al-Qaeda fighters that is directly under Abdul 10 Hafeez' supervision as part of the External Operations 11 Program. 12 This is the very program that this defendant was 13 part of and it was his emir, Abdul Hafeez, who sent him on 14 this mission to bomb the New York railroad. The timing for 15 these discussions is also highly relevant. 16 This is in 2008, in the summer/early fall of 2008, 17 exactly when this defendant was in Waziristan region. So it's 18 highly probative of what their knowledge was of attacking the 19 United States during this time period. 20 MR. GOTTLIEB: well, your Honor, first, we heard it 21 was this witness' idea to go to al-Qaeda. Apparently this 22 came from Bryant Vinas, this creative plan to bomb the Long 23 Island Railroad. 24 So now we're going the other way. It's not like i_ 25 it's generated, and the chronology is important for the jury BHS OCR CM CRR CSR Vinas - direct - Loonam 1138 1 to understand in connection with the issues in this case. 2 This guy comes up with this idea of bombing the Long Island 3 Railroad. There is no connection to Adis Medunjanin. This is 4 just his own warped sense of how he can reek this destruction. 5 There is no relevance to the issues in this case. 6 THE COURT: Is this the same Hafeez about whom the 7 two accomplices testified? 8 MR. LOONAM: Absolutely. The same Hafeez who is the 9 emir of the International Operations Program. Abdul Salaam 10 also informed him that Younis al-Mauritani, who he's briefing 11 on this plan together with Abdul Hafeez' subordinate, Abdul 12 Salaam, was in direct communication with Osama bin Laden. 13 we're not talking about conspiracy of all of al-Qaeda. 14 MR. GOTTLIEB: The only thing is, the conversation 15 is had not with Hafeez. Apparently he's having it with some 16 other guy. 17 THE COURT: Understood. Overruled. 18 (Continued next pageCRR CSR Vinas - direct - Loonam 1139 1 (Open court.) 2 THE COURT: Thanks for your patience. 3 MR. LOONAM: Can you please read the question back. 4 THE COURT: No. If you can't remember what it was, 5 it wasn't worth asking in the first place. 6 Can you please tell us about the discussions you had with 7 Younis al--Maurtani and Abdul Salaam? 8 A Yes. Abdul Salaam recommended I give this idea of mine 9 to Younis. He acted as my translator. I told him everything 10 that I knew about the Long Island Railroad. I answered any 11 questions that he had about it. 12 I drew a map of Long Island and I explained to him 13 that all the trains, all the train tracks going into Manhattan 14 merged into one tunnel, and he felt that the best attack plan 15 would be to have a operation conducted while the 16 train was still inside the tunnel to damage the tunnel. 17 when you say operation what are you referring 18 to? 19 A Suicide bombing. 20 And why conduct the attack while the train is in the 21 tunnel? 22 A If the tunnel is damaged it would cause a very big 23 economic hit to New York. 24 In addition to causing an economic hit, when you were 25 discussing this plan with Abdul Salaam and Younis BHS OCR CM CRR CSR Vinas - direct - Loonam 1140 1 al-Mauritani, were you aware this attack would cause a 2 substantial number of human casualties? 3 .A Yes. 4 was that one of the goals of the attack? 5 A Yes. 6 Did you have any discussion with Abdul Salaam and Younis 7 al-Mauritani about who the operative should be for such an 8 attack? 9 A He said preferably it would be a white man from one of 10 the western countries, with western documents; either from 11 European Union. England, Canada, Australia or the U.S. 12 when you said "western documents" what were you referring 13 to? 14 A Identification papers. 15 Now, based on your discussion with Younis al-Mauritani or 16 Abdul Salaam, did either of them have authority to authorize 17 an attack within the United States? 18 MR. GOTTLIEB: Objection. 19 THE COURT: Overruled. 20 .A What's the question again? 21 Based on your conversations with Younis al-Mauritani or 22 Abdul Salaam, did you have an understanding as to whether they 23 had authority to authorize an attack in the United States? 24 A No. They had no authority. 25 Did you have discussions with Abdul Salaam about who did BHS OCR CM CRR CSR Vinas - direct - Loonam 1141 I 1 have authority to authorize such an attack? 2 A Yes. 3 According to Abdul Salaam who did have authority to 4 authorize such an attack against the United States? . 5 A Sheikh Mahmoud Atiyatallah, Osama bin Ladin, Ayman 6 al-Zawahiri, and Abdul Hafeez. 7 You testified earlier that there was a discussion of who 8 the operatives should be to carry out an attack in the United 9 States. 10 Do you remember specifically whether it was Younis 11 al--Mauritani or Abdul Salaam, or both, who discussed that it 12 should be a white man who carries out the attack? 13 A It was Younis' suggestion. . 14 Now, how was the plan left to attack the Long Island 15 Railroad? 16 A Excuse me? 17 was there any final decision made whether to move forward 18 with the plan? 19 A No, not when I was there anyway. 20 what was your role in the plot going to be? 21 A I just gave the information. 22 were you going to return to the United States to conduct 23 the attack? 24 A No. 25 what were you going to do? BHS OCR CM- CRR CSR Vinas - direct - Loonam 1142 1 A Younis said he was going to pitch the idea to Sheikh 2 Mahmoud, and if he had permission to start his own group, 3 which me, Abdul Salaam and Abu al-Abidayn would be part of, 4 and I would be more as an advisor to him. 5 To your knowledge, was the Long Island Railroad plot ever 6 approved? 7 A I don't know. 8 You testified that Abdul Salaam was under the supervision 9 of Abdul Hafeez; correct? 10 A Yes. 11 were you aware of whether Abdul Salaam conducted any 12 operations against American forces in Afghanistan? 13 A Yes. 14 0 what type of operations did he conduct? 15 A He took part in some rocket attacks on U.S. base. 16 was he able to conduct those attacks against American 17 forces in Afghanistan while he was under Abdul Hafeez' 18 supervision? 19 A Yes. 20 A time came when you were arrested, correct? 21 A Yes. 22 0 where were you arrested? 23 A In Peshawar. 24 why were you in Peshawar? 25 .A The fighting season was over. I didn't want CRR CSR