?19_ ZUV 21 22 '23 24 ATHE PEGPLE OF THE GP ILLIHUZS STATE 7' 3 CGUNTE OF a IN THE CERCUIT a? COOK COUMTY CGUETY-DEPARTMENT-CRIMINAL DIVISIGR Case Na. 97w2?973 ~vs~ Charga: Murdar SAHTIAGG and} BENCH TRIAL REPORT OF tha trial before the Honorable STANLEY J. SACKS, an the zd'day cf? Sepzember, 19?8? APPEARAECES: RICHARD A DEVINE, State Attorney of Cook Gaunty, by MS. MARIA MC CARTHY and MS. MARGARET WDDB, ASSiStant State a Attarneys;_ far the People of the State of Illinais; ?nl 19 ll 12 13 '714 15(Witnaas awarn.). ROBERT RUIE. called as a witneas an behalf of the Ee?yla 0f the State of Illinois, being ?irst duly awcrn, wag examined and testifiad as fellows: Q. amass? EXAMINATION _By MS. MC CARTHY: Would ymu please tell the Court Yaur full- name and please spall yaur last name far the record? A. Q. Robert Ruiz, R*u-i-z. Robert, you're going to have to keep yaur voice up laud 50 everybady in tha roam can hear you. A Q. A Q- Chicago?- a. Haber: Ruiz, Emu-i?z. How 01d are you, Robert? Twenty. Do you currently live in th? City of Yes. And haw long hav? you lived in Chicago? All my life. Are yau a mamber of a gang? Yes. What gang-are yen a member of? 55 Maniac Latin Bisciplea. VTHE QGURT: Egbert, please. I heard yam that tima. Keep yam: vaice up nice and laud. Maniac Latin Disciples"*okay. M3: MC EARTHY: Q. Haw lang have_you been a member cf the Maniac L&tin Di?ciples? I -A. Abaut fiVe yaars. Q. 0n September 24th of 1996 were yam 'aanvicte? of tha offense of gasseasian Qf a contralled aubstance an? sentenced ta prahation? A. Yes, I Was. . Q. And are you still curre?tly on that prabatian? A. Yes. Q. Di? ycu knaw a person by the name a? Oscar Arman?? A. Yes. Q. How did you know Oscar? A. He waS a close fri?ad?frcm schema. Q. How.long had ycu Oscar before July of 1997? Abbut three yeags; Q. Was Dscar a member cf gang?' 56 Y~s. Q. . What gang? $ame? Same as yam? A. Yea. Q. Did yam alga an individual by th& name 9f Jase Reyes? A. Yes. And did Jose Reyes belnng tc'a gang? a. 3&5, he did. Q. What gang? A. Maniac Latin, R?bert again. A Maniac Latin Disciples; Q. And haw long had you known Jasa anes? A F?r_about fou:_years? Q. You?re familiar with the Cobra street gang, carrecz? A. Yes. Q. Back in June and early Jnly GE 199? ware_ the Cobras street gang a rivai-gang of the'Maniaa Latin DisciplEa? - A. Yes. Q. I want :0 direct ycur'attanticn ta July '51 199?. A: abeut 10:30 that avamimg where wara you? Q. Gn the aauthwest Garner 0E Springfield and Who wera you with? With Oscar and Jaga, An? Whil? yau were there at the marge: GE Springfield a?d Grand, did a relative sf Qscar?s arriva? Yes. Wha was that? His aunt, Mary Glivo. ?And what did how did she arrive? She was driving past an? we $een her an& wa'were talking to her. #203 And what type cf vehicle wag she in? Am Astra van. w?at street w?ssha driving dawn? Grand? Do yQu kn?w what diraction She was gaing _on Grand?' A. Q. East. When you saw her 9r aha 3am yau di? she Stay the van? 58 Yea? Q. Ana Was aha still an Gran? wha? aha Stepp?d the van? A, Yes? Q. What di? ycu and Qacar and Jose ?g when wary Olive atspped ha: van? We walkad up t0 the van and started talking ta her. And what sidE'of the van was closegt t6 tha Eauth sidewalk? A. The gassengerw Q1 ,And Mary wag ?ha drivar? Yes. Q. And was there anyone in the frant pa?senger?slseat? A. Excgse me? Q, Has anyone in the fron? passengar's s?at e? the van? A. Yes. Q. Who was that? A. .Mafy?s daughter. Q. As you ateo? thare talking ta he: and her daughter, did yau'notice any cars driving by an? Grand? 53 Egan Caul? yam ?escribe a car that you saw gm by an Gram?? White Cutlassm Q. What directign wag that car driving when you firgt saw it? A. Eriving East, the same way Mary?s van was. 0. 7 And what_did that car ?g when it reached Sgringfield the first time that yau saw it? A, It went narth, made a left on Sgtingfield. Q. A?d ia.Springfi&ld a one~way atreet gaing . A. Yes. Q. After that car turned Earth an Spring?ield, did it'diaappear from ymur sight? A. Yes. Q, Did yam remain talking to Mary Oliva an? her daughter at th? van? A. YES. Q. Bid you see that Car again? A. Yes. Q. Haw long after the first time the car drave by did yam see that car again? Lesa than a minute, 60 124'? Q. Wham yam saw that car again where wag that car when yQu saw it tha aecand time? A, it stogpa? an Syring?ieid and Gra?d. THE CQURT: Eir, I heard iv that time; Eat keeg ymur voice up. THE It stoppad an Springfield and -Grand. MS, MC CARTHY: Q. well, did yau sea the car driving befare it stoppa?? Yes. Q. What street was it driving on when yam saw it the sec?nd time bafore it stapped? A. Gn Grand. Q. What diraction an Grand was it heading the secmnd time?? 7 A. 'East+ Qf An? what did that car d0 when the car reaChed Springfield? 7 I A. It And haw many peopla you sea ia that car? Twa in.the fromn and ?ne i? the back. Q. and I want_you tQ laak around-ahia Sir :Qurtrwam and tell ug; do FOE see tha ?ersgn inf, ccurt who you saw in the seat? A: Nat Look armund thia ccurtrocm and tall ma ymu'saa the p?rsmn in thiS'ccurtroam wha yam Saw the driver?s geag? A. Q. Well, isn't it true that when that car' stegped at yam l?oked and ycu saw in Conceptian Santiago in tha front passenger?s seat? A. Q. Yo? did know Canception Santiaga on July 1, 1997, didn?t yen, Robert? July 3f 199?: carr?ct? Yes. Q. Yen did knew a? and what nickname did Conception Santiagc go by on the atreet? Lafty. twazw . Yes. 62 a. Yes, Q. And haw did you knew Coneeption Santiago? A. Pram tha S?anish Cobras._ I . And yau had seen him many times be?ora VYeu also knew his Freddy: correct? 2.What ?icknama did Freddy gm by? Jcker. 039x33 . What did yam say? Jaker. Q. Ana ymu had known of Jaker befcre July lat 0f carrect? A. YES. Q, You ha? seen him many times, correct? A4 Yes. Q. In fact; Qua er both of them lived in yaur neighborhoo?? A, ?Yes. Q. Who? A. I?m n?t tao aura, bu: th?y were aiways araund there. Q. Can you point nut Co?ception Santiage hera in caurt? A. Y?s? Q. Okay. Please paint to him. Over there. Desarihed where begs sitting in raiatian ta everypne 6133. -'To the left CARTHY: Indicating for the recmrd an 1 inwceurt identifieation af the defen?amt Gmncaptimn' 2 Santiaga, 3 THE COURT: Cbncaptian Sa?tiagm; 4* ME CARTHY: 51 And can yam point Gut Freddy Santiagm?? 6* a? Yes. i 7 -Q. ?bers is ha? 8 A. _To the right. '9 THE COURT: Is he sitting lika between anybody? 10' THE WITNESS: Yeg. Eetwean the two lawyars. 11? THE All right+ Fre?dy Santiaga. Ga on. 12 MS. MC CARTHY: 13 Q. And isn't it trua that when that car 14 stapged yau saw Canc?ption ax Lefty fire a gun in 15 your ?iracticn out that passanger window? 16 A, ND. 1? Q, Wham the when strike that. 18 Gunshots did came from that car, carract? 1% A. Yes. 20 Q. Ana what ?art 0f that.car? 21 Passengar. 22 Qf The fron? passenger? .23 Ygs. _24 IQ. And when the gun?hot? atarted yam ware 64 with Ogcar and Jase, carrect? "h THE THE near tha Q. A. 5t0?pe?, AA. A. Q. Just Oscar. 305% was by the earner. Judge, I didnft h?ar what ha sai?. CUURT: I didn?t hEar him Either. WITNESS: wa? close :9 Oscar, Sage was earner; I MC And from that car? About eight or nine?. And after thmsa eight or nine shets what did that car d9? I don't knaw, I wasn't there. ran. did you run? I ran towards Harding. Wh?n you ran did yen knew whether or.n0t Oscar or Jase had beam hit by any bullets? A. Yes, hacauga I haard Qatar say take me ta the_h55?ital. Q. A i! Wellt after yGu ran whare did you gm?- After I ran? YES. I went back tn whe e.it had hapPEH?d and I seam same of my friends. Q. And then where di? you go? 65 the hosyital? To the bagpital. Q. Was that St. Mary's Easpitai? A. Yea. And when you arrive? at St. Mary?s Haspital ?id you see yaur friend_?saar thara in the amerg$n?y roam? A. Nm, Did yam la&rn that he was there? A 'Yes, Q. Did Jase also g0 to the hospital? A Yes. ?id same datectivgs com? to the hasgital as well? Yes. Q. And did the detectives take yam anywhEre tha hospital? -A. was. Q. Where did they take ybu? A. zanh District. And when you arrived at the palica station di? the detectives intarview you? A Yes, they Q. And did Yen tall tiem about the car driving and stagping and shooting? gar told thaw ahcut the 031; Q. And the ahomtingf correct? Run YES, Q. ?aw, that night yen didn?t mama amy?ne as being tke shnoter er tha ?river in the car, aarract? Right; . Q. By the way, that night y?u also gave the palica a ghony ad?ress, didn't yen? Yea? Q. 'Aftar you talked ta tha palic? that nigh?;g yam went name, correct? - A. YES. Q. You la?t the station a cbuple heurs after vmu get there, correct? Yas. Q. On ?a five days later on January 6th 0f THE COURT July. MS. MC cAaw?yi I?m sorry. July?sth of lg?? you went ta ?acar Afman's wake, correct? A. YES. _And when ydu sometime aiter yam arriV&d at tha wake ycu were introduced t0 Detawtive 67 10correct? R. Yes. MR. DGHERTY: Judge, I abject tQ leading. THE It is lea?ing but dvarruled. Go an. TEE WITNESS: Cam you repeat the quastian? MC CARTHY: Q. Sametime after ycu arrive& at Qatar's waka ?yau were intraduced to Detective Guverra; Garrett? A. Egg. Q. And Detective Guverra tald y?u that he wante? ta talk yith you, ccrract? A. Not Q. Well THE CGURT: Pardmn me? THE WETNESS: N9. M8. MC CARTHY: What did he Say :0 yam when he saw ymu at the wake? wall THE COURT: Robert, please keeg ycu vaice apt WITNESS: He didn?t really ageak :0 me. He just had some Other two other officers gick me up and_take me dawn to the station. 68 A. Mnr-?- ?"CRETHE: Q. -Wa11i he-did talk to you an the waka th?ugh, didn?t he? .Ha just himself and lEt me who he was. I 2. had that he wanted ta talk with you? A, Right, And then yam went t0 the palica statian, correct? A. Yes? Q. And aametime after yam arrived at the pmlice station Detactive querra arrive@ as well: cafr?ct? A. Yea. .MS. MC CARTHY: Your Honor} ta Mr. Barman there?s a gentleman in ?he front row in a black shirt who?s making motiens across his mack with his hand. I THE CQURT: I don?t knew what Ifm taking ncteg. I can't see what is going an in the ?au?ience, but if there is anybo?y out there doing anything which you shauldn?t he doing in court, dom?c do it any Ranger. Anybady thatfs sitting nut there-Reap ysur hands dawn at yeur sides. 69 Ex'24 All right. Go ahead pleasa.?' MS. MC CARTHKE Q. After yen arrived w" yau went ta Harriann am? I?m sorry. ?rand and Central,?correct? I A. Yes. Q. An? y?u wera pUt in an int?rview roam. carrect? A. Yea. Q. And sametime after you arrive?'?etective Guverra Gama into the room. corract? A. Yes. Q. An? he aaked yam questions absut what haypanad an July lat m? 199? when the shooting happenad, carre?t? A. Yes. Q. And You him wha? happened, didn?t ymu? A. Yes. Q., Yam alsa ?e THE Wait a minute. What was your answ?r? Yes? THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. THE Kee? ysur voice up. 76 10CARTHY: alga tcl? him that yau 3am the_ shcoter. didn?t yam? A. Ma. Q. isn?t it true that yam bald him.that tha shactar was La?ty? 7 (A. N0- EHE-CDURT: Pardan me? THE Na. MS. MC Ymu'told him that you saw tha ?river cf the car, didnft you? A. No. Q. You tol? him that the drivar GE the car was Joker, ian?t that right? A. Ma. Q. ?e shamed yam a grouy 9f yalareidi photographs, didn?t ha, Embert? A. Yes. 7 An? ha asked yen if you racogmiaed Lefty Qr the shoatar in that group of photographs, didn?t he? Yes. Q. And if yam recognized u~ asked if he recagnize MR. PICK: Objection. THE CGURT: Ta what?? MR. It was a campmund qnesximnf.Judga+ M5, MC CARTHY: Well -w THE COURT: Did you Show him photograghs a?d? Raphrase th? quastian. MS. MC CARTHY: I wili* ME. MG CARTEY: Q. He asked you if yam recmgnizad anymne in group photographs, carrect? A, Yes. And yam pointed out two photagraphs to him, is that carrect?' A. Yes. I Q. Ycu p?inted nut the polaroid of the para?n you knew a5 Lefty to Detektive Guverra an? said that was the shmater, carrect? 7A. Yes. Qe And that was Conceptibn Santiaga, that ha painted ant? A, YES. Q. alsm point?d Gut the.photagraph of Jokar tn the detective an? said he was tha drive: of the Car;'cmrract? Yes. And that was Fraddy ?antiagd, terract? Yes. Shawing counsel what hag been marke? 9aople?s Grgup Exhibit fiva. Showing you Pemple?s Grcup E?hibit five i?antifi?ahian. Does this ioak 11kg the grnup df phatographs that_DetectiVe-GuVerra shawed yam an the evening 0f Oscar?g waka? ?i den?: remember . . THE CQURT: your a?swer isAE d0n?: remamber? THE WITNESS: Yes. MS. MC CARTHY: Q. ?ou?wera ahown a number of polaraid phctographg, correct? A. Yesthis graup here, Peapia?s Graup Exhibit five, the phetmgraph of Lafty that yau identified to ?etective Guv?rra? A. Yea. Q. And where is that? Right h?re. ?3 .Im?icating he haa painted t0 Pacgle?s group Exhibit five C. And da you see in Paaple?s Graup Exhibit 5 the phatograph of JokEr thatayou idantified? A. Yes. Q. .TQ Detactiva Guvarra? A, Yes. Which phmtagraph you identify to him? A. Right here. Qt Pecple?s Exhibit ?ive F. Now, after you spoke with yam alga tald Detectiva Guverfa that an the night 05 Gscar's waka' that the that you ?idn?t identi?y Lefty and Joker earlier was because you were scarad, carrect? No. Wall, on the evening of Oscax?s wake Wham vyau taiked with Datective Guverra; he didn?t hurt you in any waydidn't hit ycu? A. Va. He didn?t yell at yam, did he? A. .No, I I Q. An? that was the first night sinca the 7% shamting that ysu talke? with Guvarra, lg that true? k. Q. No. Wha? bafOre ?scar's wake had yen spaken with Detective Guvarra? Mamy times after the ghosting. Probably -.abaut three or fan: times, Sc on three or four occasian? between July 1 an? July 5 you talked to Detective Guverra? Q. up with 6th? me mg, Q. R. Correct. And where did that take place? 25th bistrict? It always tack place at the 25th Digtrict? Yes. And haw was it that yen waul? some t0 maat Detective Guvezra between the lat and the Wallr whereVEI they found me thay picked Deta?tive Guverra wculd pick you up?? No. Ea had somebcd? driving around with my picture looking for me. Q. I see. and was that a detectiVE-Qr a palice officer wha wag picking yam up? '75 Betactiva. Q. And what did this ?etective like? A. I dwn't know? Yam have as idea what he leaked like? Me. ME. PICK: Whi?h time, Judge? . THE COURT: Overruled. Yam gan 53k him an cross. THE Whit?. That's it; That?s all I ramemberi 7 ME. ME CARERS: Q. What did yam say? A4 I remamber thay wexe {we white males. Thatguya that you gay picka? a) 5:3) yam up thmsa-thrae or four timea hetwean the lat and the 6th? A. No; 0y. SD they were always different cfficera Gaming to pick you up you?re aaying? -A. Yes. Q. V_And they always br?ught yo?_ta Grand and Central? I A. Yea. ?6 WarRad all threa or fmur times Datectiva Gaverxa talked with you. Is that what ymuira saying? At Yes. Q. And when Detective Guverra talked to yam &id he aver tell you :0 identify? A.. YES. Really? What did he say? A. Well, after Jose ha? identifie? him, he came t0 me and he tald m? that ail right, here?3 what we ?fa gming ta do. Jase painted these two guys but. New what I want ycu ta ?n is he wag talling me ?xactly say story. Q. New, ycu?re aaying that Jase strike that. He told yeu that Jose identified La?ty and Joker? A. Yes. MR. DOHERTY: Objection+ I object ts that question. THE COURT: It's nat ta grave tha truth mf what ha said, meraiy ta Shaw Whatrhe did thereafter, It?s not proaf that Jase Reyes identified anybady, mereiy-ta shew what this bay did afterwards. Ga an? MR. DOHERTE: Uh-huh. tell yam haw Jase had picked an; or identified Lefty an? Jaker? A. 'Yes. Q. Haw.did ha tell you he had picked out Lefty and Jakar? ant of a pictura he had shown.him. But July 6, the nightof Escar?a waka, was the first night that you ware Shawn these palarai? phatagraphs, right, Rahert? Right. Q. .Eut you?ra telling u? in the days bg?ore July 5 he told yam Jose had picke? them Gut, but he ?evar Showed ymu thosa phonograghs? MR, PICK: Ghjecticm. MR. DQHERTE: Tha? was not the question. THE CQURT: That's the question new. Ovarruled. THE wiT?EsS; It wa$ the same day of Oscar's wake that it happened. MC CARTHY: Q. Gkay; A. They never shoWad me any pictures before that; But 55 now yau're Baying it was the night 78 Oscar's waka that Detective Guverra said Joae .picked him amt, yam shoul? ago, a: something t9 that effect, gorrect? A.- Yes? Q, 88 in the three a: fear times ymu say yam met with Detectiva Guverra between the and tha 62h, ha never told you ta identify? A. Q. Never miatreated yeu? Just by locking me in the raom ism a certain amount 0f hqurs. And when yew say_he locked you in a ream; how lang would he lock yen in a room for? Abaut seven, eight haurs everytime I wag there. An? you wanted t0 leave and he wuuldn't let ymu leave. 15 that what ycu're saying? A. Exactly. They had a lack an the doer, Q: And_when he wauid talk to you yam may an these occasians did he yell at you? A. Na, Did he hit yen? A. No. Did he threaten you? ?9 ??514:} . But hg wauld jug: leave y?n-lockedtinma raom for heurs and than la: yam gm. Is that what y?u?ra Saying? A. Correct* Q. ?aw, then snly the night 0f the 6th; that's the night that you identified the photographa of Lefty and Jeker, carrect? Yes. Q. That?s the first tima you?re polaroids 5f Lafty on Jokar, correct? A. ?es. 7 Q. And new ysu?r? saying that?s the night that ha is telling you Jase selected Jaker and Lefty,rcorrect? A. II wauld we ware both there. And up to that paint "w Wait a minute. We wera bath there maaning who by we? THE WITMESS: Well, me and Jose were there at the sam& time. mg were just in the station at the same time. 7 TEE COURT: On July 6? THE WITEESS: 'rea. 80 inCARTHY: Q.. Yau and Jc?e were in the aama r?om on '5 July 6? A. 30. Q. You ware in diffgrent raams? A YES. Q. Yau weren't in the same ruom with JDSE if. in fact, he lacked at phctograghs, ware you? You never saw him dm that? A. Na. Q. He wasn't in the locked at photographs, A, Q. And up until aha .Lefty and Joker from those ream with you yam pain? that you identifiad polarmid8_n? correct? ?fficer ha? Ever-hurt you, (A. Ma. Or yalled at you?. A. Nu. Q. Gr threatened you? A. .Ha. Q. Correct? A. Correct. Q. 81 After yam identified the ghatagraghs'of 1Lefty and Jakar an the 5th sf July, yeu want home, carreat? Yaa? 93' Three daya la?ar; am July 9th cf 1998 (sis), you went back to Grand an? Central, correct? A. No? I dan?t remember that. Q. a few daya after you i?eatifie? the polarcid yo? lacked at a lineup, didn?t you, Rmbert? A. I think it was at the same time we saga thaw, yau know, yeah. THE COURT: Sir, please keep year vaice up. THE WITNESS: Yes. _Yeu?re right. a ME. MG CARTHY: Q. .56 aboutthree day? after yen i?anti?ied the polaroids of Lefty and Jake: you Eock?d atra lineup! corract? A. . Yes. Ydu came back he the area at Grand an? Cantral, correct? A. Yea. Q. And ?uring the afterngon hcurs an July 9 yam leaked at one lineup, right? A. Correct. Q. And when yam lacked at that iineup yau? 82 idantified sameone in that limEMF t? SEt?t?iV?? Guverra, didhit you? A. Yas. And who did you identi?y'in that lineup? A. Lefty a?d Joker. Q.I Well. you lomke? at Gh? lineup on the ch, correct? a. Q. On that day you identifie? Lefty 1h tha lineup, di&n?t you? A- 7 Yes. Q. . And you told Detgctiva Guverra that that'a the guy wha was shooting out sf the passenger?s side .0f the car, ccrrect? A. YES. . MR. PICK: Objection tn the laading, Judge. THE It is lea?ing, but I?m sure she?s nan calling this boy by Choica. So Qverruled. MS. NC CARTHY: Q.I Showing you Peaplefs Exhibit si? far identification. Does this laak like a photogragh 5f thav lineup that yam lacked at? A. Yes. 83 And man ycu pain? Gut the pergcn in_this lineug strike that. The linaup you locke& at on July 9th GE 3598 {sic}? A. Yes. Q. Seven.? And do you the perso? in this Eineup that you identifie? to Detective Guverra a3 the ahamtar? I A. YES. Q. Point be them please. Indicating the secsnd person from tha left? A. Yes. Q. And that: is A. Lefty. Q. Lefty, ?Qriect? A. Yes. THE COURT: An? Lefty is Conceptien santiagm? THE WITNESS: Yes. MS. MC CARTEY. Q. And befare yau identified Lefty in that lineup nm palice mfficers had avar hurt yam, carrect? A. N0. 84 y?ilad at you, entrant? Nag lOr threaiened you, carrect? No. Nam, an the same day that you looked at tha: linaup an assistant state?s ?ttarnay came down ta tha atatimn; ?idn't he? Yes. Q. And he met with yam, didn?t he? A. Yes. I . And.that was in ene 05 thosa interview IQQWS correct? Yeg. He himself, right? A. Yes} Q. He tald you he was a state?a attorney, right? I YES. Q, A prosacutor, right? A. $33. Q. He yam he wasn?t your laWy?rt right? VYESwasn?t Cm?ception santiaga's lawyer, right? 85 Yea. Q. And he tald you tha? ha wamtad to talk ta_ yQu abmut what haypanad on tha lat. cmgrect? . A. Right. Q. Ea was prmfessimnal, xight? MR. abjection. MR. DOBERTE: Objectian. THE WITNESS: Yes. COURT: He apyarently undar?tanda what she meant by grofea?imnal. Overrule?. MS. MC CARTEY: Q. He treated yau weil, right? A. Yea. Q. An? ycu never {sic} him what had haypengd-befare &nd during the shooting an fuly 1, 199?, ccrrect? I Ye?. Q. After he asked you about what happened. he than asked ydu if he out a statement ahqut_what yeu had tald him, correct?_ A. yes. .Q. He told yam that yam would g0 over the ?Statament with him. right? A. Yes. 86 10 11 12 13 14 3.2:1; 9* That yau cauld make any changea or aerrectians 0r a?ditians t0 tbe wantad, carrect? A. Right. IQ, ?nd that if the stanament was, in ?act, the truth t? the best of you: knawledga, that you wauld Sign it, right? A. Yea. Q. And yen agread ta giVe that kind of statement, tight? A. Yes. Q.- And, in fact, bafore he began wri?ing out, ,that statement the assistant state's attorney was aione with you in the robm, waan't he? A. No? There was a perio? of ?ima when it wag just ycu and him in tha room, cdrrect? Na.? MR. DOHERTY: Objection. THE COURT: His answers are no? Overruled. MS. MC CARTHY: Q. Ian't it true that ha asked y?u how you had haen treated by thanQliCE, carrect? A. Yes. 87 FiEmu tald him yau'had b?en Ersate? fine, correct? Egg. He then wrcta Out tha: atatement right there in Qf yam, cmrrect? A. ?Yea. Q. And aftar he wrote it Gut he wait threugh that Statement with you, didn?t ha? PL. Q1 He had you read a part cf it ?at loud, carrect?" A. I_Yes[ Q. He read the reat 9f it Gut laud whiie?yau_ fallaw?d along, right? A. Yea. Q. And he allcwe? you to make any changea, didm?t he? A: YES. 0r correcticns? Yes. 0r additions? A. Yea. g; There were a fag correctians-?ada, werenit there? 83 Mam-Y?s, You initiallad thwga carraczimns? .Yas. Q. An? m~ THE COURT: Sir, please-keap yaur vaice'up. Ge an; I MC CARTHY: Q. And at the en?'you signed th?t Statem?ntr carrect? 363. MC CARTHY: Showing counsel what has bean mafked Exhibits seven and eight. MS. NC CARTHY: Q. Shewing yam what has been marked as Femple?a Exhibit seven for identificaticn, Egbert. That?s the statement that you gave to the s?ate?s attarney on Euly 9, ian?t this? A. Yes. That?s_your signature at the bottom of page one! correct? A. Yes. Q. Yau put t?at there, right? Yes. Directing yo?r t0 page Ewe. 89 ?mm?ff - *?mmu That?s yaur signatura an the bottom 0f pag? awn, aorrect? A. Yes. Q. Yam put that aig?ature there, right? A. Yea? I did. Q. And, in fact} there i3 also a Carrectian half way dawn the page, right? A.- Yes. Q. And thase are your ini?ials RR, carrect? A. Yes. Q. pl??ed your signature at the battgm Qf page three, correqt? A. Yes. And you signed page ?our three aeparate -times, correct? A. {n0 audible respansa.) Q, At :he and of the sacond p?ragraph, a? the and of the third paragraph amd at the and the fourth paragra?h? Yes. 0* And you also initialed a carractinn an that page, right? A. Yes. Q. Now, you bald the state?s attorney 90 isin?wrmatian Egbert?r Righag' Q, How aid yam were, that you want ta Hear High far twa years, that yen cagld rea? &nd write angligh, correct? A. Yag. Ra? that was true? A. yes? Qt Yam-told him abmut being a mamber af a gang and how yaur friends were members of a gangf correct? . A. Yea. Q. And_ywu alga told him abcut standing on that southwest corner of Grand an? Springfieid_mn July lat of ?997, didn?t y?u? A. Yes. Q. And n?w I want tq direct your attantian t? page twa three quarters of the way dawn the battam of tha page. Ref?rring to the seaomd tima that the car drave'by; It states Robert Ruiz atatas that 'within th minutes the same car drave past again in the same direction. Robert Ruiz States that as tha car began to turn left Onto Springfield narthhaund 91 Khe car stoppe? for?a magpie 0??ae5%??s on gran?. That'f what fag tald tha $t?te?s Attarna?; isn?t it? Yes} 7 - I: then says Rabart Ruiz states that tha Qassanger stuck his arm and head out 0f tha passenger windww. Hobart Ruiz states that the passeng?r was holding a gun in big han? a5 ha stuck. ?it out of the windqw. 'Ymu bald the state?s attornay that, carrect? 3; Yes. Q. Ember: Eniz states that he recmgnized the persen in the passenger's sea: a5 Le?ty. You told aha State's Attorney thai? didn*a yen? Yes. Q. Raberc Ruiz statas that he'dwes mat Lefty?s real name, but states that he is pictured.in Exhibit You toid the state?s attsr?ey that, you? A. Yes. Q. And 1 want to direct ymurKattantian to 1QFewgle?a'Exhibit 8, the phatograph~thau's iu frant' Who is that a phmtagragh of? A. Lefty. Q. And that?s the phatograph that yam i?entified t0 the State'g whe? you gave this statement, carrect? A. Yes. Q. Yam than atate? Haber: Ruiz Etataa that Lefty pointed the gun in hheir ?irecticn an the a?uthwast garner of Grand and Springfield, You told the State's Attarney tu&tg di?n?t yam? A. Yea} 'Rohert Ruiz states that La?ty began ta fire the gun in their diractian. 'You told the state's attorney that, didn't yen? I Yes. Q. Robert Ruiz states that Lefty fired thE? gun sevan to eight times in thair_directiun, 'Yau told the state?s attaraey that! didn?t yau? A. Yea. 93 I i ??me24' Rahart Ruiz ?tatas that.when Lefty bagan' ta fize he ran wast an Gra?d tcward Pulaski. Egbert Quiz states that before he ran he saw the drivar ?f the gar back and recggnized him as Jaker, Lefty?s brother. Yam tol? the state's that, carrect? A. Yes. Q. And an page faur cf chat statement, Robert. Robert Ruiz atates that he?s been treata? well by the palica an? Assistant State's Attarney Sean Gall?gher. I what yau told the state?s attarney, isn?t it? A. Yes. Q. 7 That you'd been given McDonald'a to eat and som?thing tn drink, A. Yes. Q. . That you ha? been given cigarettes ta smake and been allowed to use tha bathrasm, correct? A. Yes. Q. _Robert Ruiz states tha? no one hag made any thrgats or promises in exchange for the atatement and that he i5 giving thia statement 94 .519 20 21 22 23 24 freezy Yam tol? that, didnft yam? A.. Ygs, Q. At nw time did you ?Var tell the assistant Vstate?s that yam didn?t knew shat at yam and Oscar, did you? A. Ma, Q. At mm time did yam ever t?ll tha atate?a attorney that you weren?t evan sure, did you? A. No. Q. At no time did you tell,the Sta??'s attarney that the anly reasgn I?m tailing yam it's Lefty and Joker is t0 get tha.police out cf my hair, did you? A. No. Q. ?n July 23, abOut two weeks later, Rahert, you came dawn ta this buiiding, didn?t ycu? 7 Qt Ycu came to phe fcurth ?153: in this building, didn't you? A. Yea, Q. And yam me?_with a ?emale assistant State'a attorney, correct? 95 .YESL And th?t was a Chinesa_wgman, a; Yes. Q. Her name was Chasi Lee? A. _Yea. - Q.V And Chaoi Lee brwught ygu intm bar G?ficer ?idn?t she? a; Correct, Q. An? whem she braught you i?tQ he: m?fice, it was just you and har almne in har office, wasn?t it? A. Yes, it was. ?And she intraduced hersalf, correct?. A. Yas. Q. I And she told y?u aha was an Assistant State's Attorney? A. Yes. Q. Wasn?t your lawyer or wasn?t Canceptian?? lawfar, correct? A. Yes; Q. she then ask?d you about what hagpaned an .July 1, correct? R. YES. And yau told her what had happened an 96 23-- 24' July 3, didnft you? Na. 0? P- You didn?t tell her what happened o? July A. No? I tald her that the statement that was Written dawn I ?id neg want to go up?ta the Gramd Jury and make it? But She told me w? She atarted telling me are yau afraid 0f anybady, is aemebody sca?ing yam and I tal? her no. And she-was u~ she just kept saying :0 get me tQ ga aawn to the Grand Jury. - I Q. Let?a stay a minute. Ycu say MR. DOHERTY: Na. ohje?t t0 the prasecutor I THE COURT: I think the ansWer was finiahed. You can ask him an cross anything You?d like tn ask him. Overr?led. ME. ME CARTHY: So you?re saying that yam told the assistant state's attorney that day that your handwritten Statement wasn?t the truth. la that what you?re telling us? . A. Yes. A?d that her regponse was ta ask you ii 37 $you had been thfaatened, right? A. Yas. Q. And yam aaid n9? A. Right. Q. And then what wag the next thing that aha gaid ta yam a?ter that? A. Nothing. Officer Guverra came in, got me, and he Hawk ma dawn to the Grand Jury. Q. 80 having just teld bar that handwritten the truth, yen in that Grand Jury? ?he. she juat put . A. Yes. Q. That was the next thing that happEne?? A. Yes. '7 Q. Is that what yeu?re saying? E. Yes. Q. 'An? wha ?rought you inta the Gran? Jury? A. Offi??r Guverra.' Q. Okay. Now, Assistant State's Attornay Chaoi Lee had eX?lained to yam what a Grand-Jury ccrrect?? A. Yes. She told you it was a graup of citiz?ns that weuld be there in the roam, aarrect? 98 l? ?11 12: 13 3.4 1-Yesv Cmurt rapbr?er, surrect?' Egg? when you actually entar?? the Grand J?ry ara yea saying brgught yam innathat>raam2 Officerusuverra? The detective went into the Grand Jury And where was Ms. ?ee? ,She wasn't ighe wasn?t ?regeni at all in the Grand No, she wasn't. Who questiamed yam in ?ront mi the Grand' foicer Guverra, And Chaoi Lee was nawhere in the Grand ?at that I know of? And are you telling Us that all the queationing in that Grand Jury raom was done by, Detective A?i Guverra? Yes, it was. 99 the way, neither ?red?ymmz ?anceptian Santiage wexe in that Grand Jury roam, Were thay? A. N0, they waren?z. An?'neither Fre?dy Gr Concepticn Santiagm wera in the interview'roams at ?ne police ?tation 'when yam talka? ta the palice, wera they? A. N0. M3. MC CARTHY: May I just have a momant, yomr IHE gura. [Recess taken.) MS. MC CARTEY: a Q. when ycu were in frant 0E the Grand Jury, yam/ware askad questions abou: what happ?ned?u A. Yes. 7 Q. Before and daring the ahaoting on July 1, carract? A. Yes. Q. And yau testified abaut the first time that that white car drsve by Grand and went'narth an Springfield, carrect? Ag Yea. Q, And you were also then asked quastiwng abdut the secand time yQu saw that car driving on 180 Paie eighty Ee?mre you testi?iad~in ?ront sf that Grand Jury ymu taak an Gath, didn't yam, Robert? A: Yea. Q. Ymu ?90k an math t0 tell th? truthr correc?? A. Yes. Q. Nam page eight. When you were anawaring questicns abamt the time the car paased, you were asked theae questimms and gave thesa answera: Questian:.And what happened the saccn? tim? thia car passed by? Answer: The car an Springfiald am? Grand. Question: Haw many people ware in that white Cutlass? Question; Did yog recogniZe anyone in that car?- Answer: yes. Question:-Okay* Who did yam recogniza? 1:gnawex: I racmg?izedmthe guy wag shoatingw 7? Did yam mm ware yam asked thoae quegtions &nd did yam giva t?QSe angwarg?? A. Yes? Q. But you're telling ug i? was Hetemzive Guverra agking you those quastians in tha? Gxand Jury roam? Ohjectien. THE COURT: Sustained. That?s what he gaid bafare. Go ahead. MG Q. Were yam asked thesg.questions and di? y0u_ give thesa answera: Question: Okay._What happened when the car stoppad at the inteiSectian of Grand and ?pringfieid? Answer: They began Eiring.' -Question: Who began ?iring? bAnswEr: Lefty. Wera you aSKed those questions an? did yam giVE thoae answers? A. Yes. Q. Were you asked theae questiong and did yen gm 0 g?iva theme a?gwafg; - .. Queszian: Ho?, showing yam Pempia?a Exhibi: a fag}: identificatiam. ?lm: is this? Answar: It is Leity. Were ymu asked that question? Give that answer? :u?maw Yes. Q. And Pegple's Exhibit eight far identification that yan?vaigreviously identifi?d; That was the exhibit you also identif?e? in the Grand'?ury, conrect? A. VYes. Q. As Lefty, cprr?ct? A. rYes. Q. Questio?: Tau now know his name to be Canception Santiago. Ig that rig?t? Answer: Yea. Questian: Qkay. ?Whera was ha_in the whit? Cutlass? Answer: PaEgE?ger seat. Were you asked that question and di? yen give that answer? A. Yes. 3.03 ?aw1.3? 1? 2G 21 .23 2% Quasticn: Qkay. Haw many times di? he get? 5 An$warg $evem t0 eight times. Questicn: ?hc else yea 553 in the white Answer: His brather Jaker. Questian; Where Qas Joker in the whit? Catlaga? I Answer: ?He was driving. ?Were ycu aakad thase quagtions and di& you give those answers? I A. Yes. Q. When yam teatifiad in of the Grand Jury you were alsa Shawn that same handwritten statement that?a Pample's Exhibit s?ven, current? A. Yes. And yam identifiad that statam?nt in from: 9f the Grand Jury, didn't you? - g. .YEH. Q. And yam told them that that was a true and accurate copy Qf the atatement,-correct? Yes, E'?id. You also told tha Grand Jury that there were nu threats cr pramisas made in arder for yQu ta 1G4 1maka aha Q. Statement yam wer? making; Yes. And were you a$ka? this gna?tion'amd did you give this answar, page Assistant give that A, Q. How were fou.treatedwby-tha police an? by S?atefa Attorney Sean Gallagher?l %nswer: Treated weil? Were fem asked that question and ?id you ans?er? Yes. And later were you aaked haw have you h??m treated, meaning that day, am? ycu answere? finao Correct? A. Q. as?istant been-hurt A. Q. Yes? At us time that day did you ever tell the stata?s attarnay Shae: Lee that yea had by polic? officers, carract? Right. ,Gr yelled at by gaiice officersr correct? Right. You nevex told he: that anyb?dy tald ymu to identify anyone, current? ?3 Q, Right. Ymu never told her that-any paliCE' 10 ll 12 13 diaafficers had hara?sed you, did Mo* Q. ,Later that game day, tha same day yQupnu testified in from: GE the Grand Jury, yam went hawk? ta Grand and Central, cerrec:?_ A. Ben't remember. Q. Well, after you testified in {pa Gxgn? Jury yam vieW?d another lin?up, carrect? I A. I den't remember. Q. Well, yen ?id View a Eecmn? linamp in thia case, didn?t you, Robert? A. Yes. Q. And when you viewed the secon? lineup, yen identified somebmdy in that linegp to Detective Guverra, didn't yum? Yes. Q. And in that aedond lineup yuu idantified Joker, correct? A. Yes. -A?d you idantified Joker as th& ?rivar Qf' the Cutla?a to Detective Guverra, di?n?t yam? A. Yes. Q. Peaple's Exhibit nine? Showing you People?s Exhibiprmumber-nine 106 3Ear idamtificatimm? shat a fair amd?accurate @hotsgraph 0f the lineup ymu leaked at cwmtaining Jaker? A. Q. Yes? And can you point out the per?en in that lineup that yam identified? A. Q. A m_.r Yes; Paint t9 him. Here. Indicating the male fsurth from the left, 7 thir? from tha right? Righ?] Ami who is that? Jokar.- Ana that?s Freddy Santiag?, carrect? Yes. Ndw, taday yauire,telling ua aha: the infarmation, the handwritten Statamant yam Signed i5 r101; true, Q. YESE. Today'yau*re saying the that? ynu tald the Grand Jury is mat true? A. Q. Yes. 107 Yes, Q. Did you ever tell police Officera, that what yen had in the handWrittan statement wag mat Erma? A. No. Q. at what you said in the Gran& Jury was not trua? A. Ma. 'Did?yau aver tail any state's A No. Q. Did y?u ever came into this caurtr?om and hay. wait a s?cond. ?Someaady liat?? to me. What I said in zhere wasn?t true? A. New; in March of 1998 you atiil lived in Chicago, ccrrect? A. Yes. Q. And you 5till live at the same ad?rasa that yau lived in in March, correct? A. Yes. Q. .1And befere March haw 10mg h?d you lived there? A.- For abaut six gr saven months? So ywu lived th?re almost a year? 108 wa?.And aametime-bafmre March 19; 2397:: Canceptimm CDURT: MS MS. Q. .letter A. Q. i MC ?98. I'm aorry, yam: IE it Saven or ?98? m. MC CARTEE: Cancaption Santiaga's attarnay sent a ta yaur hmme, didn?t he? Yes? That_was the h?me that you were 5&ying yum lived at for almost a year, correct? A. Q. Keg. and he identified himaal? in that iettar a3 Conception Santiago?s a?torney, correct? A. Q. court taday, 'i 0 l?wyer, Yes, he did. And that?s Mr. Steven Pick whoga hera in_ East cerrect? He alsc called yau, isn't that carrect? Yes. Ha cailed ycu at home? Yes. Right? carreat? And you knew he was Canceptimnts 103 '19 11 'lZ 15 if '13-And you knew that he knew wherE"y0u liV??; right? A. Yes. Conceptign Sa?tiaga came t0 your house, ?id??March 19th 1995 tha attornay far A. Yes. And you knaw who he wag when he came? Ar Y?s. And he picked yau up that ?ay, didn?t he? 3 A. Yesp_E did. He teak yam downtown, didn?t ha? Yes? Q, And that was the 1398 199? that yau and Freddy Santiago didn't do itr correct? _le g, A. Yes. MC THE COURT: Sure. taken.} MS. MC I have no further THE CQURT: me give the court reporter a break_ All right, Before the ?119 questiana. anyers start far first time aince July 65 anyone that ?sncaption Can I can have a mament, your tan 15minutes. @hem we?ll up gb?ut a quarter ta. I QRaae?? Eaken.} THE Ok?ya The ?afem?ant? are here with their respective lawyerai Both Etat?gs attornays are here. And wa need Mr. guiz again. All right. Daharty, you're reg?rding re?resemting Freddy Santiago, corradt? MR. EOHERTY: YES, your Hanor. THE COURT: Ga ahga?. .MR. EGHERTY: Thank yam. 33053 EXAMINATION By DOEERTY: Q. Mr. Ruiz, yam wera aighteen yaarg ald in Julr cf 13?7f i$ that carrect? A. Yes. Q. And y?u ware than and new are a Maniac Latin Discipla? A. aT?a COURT: sir, please keep your vaice up;- wculd you? I MR. BQHERTY: Q. A Latin Disciple? k. No. gm ins PM: mum?- . ?wm? ta) 10 1.2 13: 14 15' 167right? Qy V911, wara you in'a YES, I wag. 0n Juiy l! 1997? rYes. What gang wag that? ?Maniac iatin Disciples. And you?re one Em. All right. But yen were one Yes. 11 *3 And you were knawn as Robhy, is that Yes. V?ow, and that evanimg am July i yam Nara in tha campany 0E the paopla whmsa.company ymu were in were also your feilaw gang members, carract? A. A. Q. corr?ct? A9 THE THE WITNESS: COURT: Yes? And that wa? Pepito and Garda, agrrect? Yes. Gerda is the deceased in this case, YES . Yes? Gor?m is Arman? n?v??mwm1.3. 20 21 '22 23 24 COURT: That was his nicknama? Okay.r MR, EQEERTY: And 69rdo,wag gunned down basically'right' in ernt Sf y?u, Cafreat? R. A. Q. Yes. Ymu knew Gerda far yeara, didn't ycu? YES. And he wag a frie?d of yo?rsl corract? Yas. And you at that tima in your_li?e mestly hung cut with fellow gang mambers, correct? Phil Q. family, A. Q. Q. Yes. . . An? ycu knew er you knew then Gordn?s carrect? YES. You kn?w members of his family? You were cordial with them, warrant? Yes? And you knew Gerda was essentially gunne? ?awn in front 0f his aunt and cousin also? At YES . NOW, at the time di?-it make you sad that Gerda ysur frien? was kilied in frant of yam? w?wa?quwmnuw? . .. ~kauunv ?ymzw In! A. Q. kiIlEd? A, Q. A. Q. Lopez at Excuga'me? rDid it maka'yeu {ma au?iblerrespm?aa?). That Gardo was-killa?? I di?n?t hear you. Did it make yam sad? Yes, it did. An? did it anger yau that Gardo was, Yes. He was a Exien?, carract? Yes. Now, you talka&_t0 Officers Mathew an? the hcspital and thia is a half an hour after your 3005 friend waa gunned down xight in front of A. THE ME. THE Q. you, cerract? Right. COURT: How da yam spell DDHERTE: Mwawtthewo.? CGURT: Gkay+ DOHERTY: And those officers asked you what ymu kn?w abaut tha shamting, corr?ct? Yea. 114 was ymur fixst.??pmrtuni?y when ?g apaak ts the palice, carrac?? A. ?es. ?Qr and there was there whan yam wera?? speaking ta af?icera Mattea anermpem at the, hospital intimidating yau a; threatening yam, was? there?. - a? A. Na, Q. There was nobody around with waapans or there were ?b rival gang membara around, correct? A. Garrett. And at the hcspital you never Officers Matteo and Lagez that you knew wha tha shga?er was; did yam? A. NO. Q. And at the hcs?ital GEE half hour aftar the enacting yam naver told ?fficers Mattes and Lapez that yqu knew wha the ?river was. Time? A. True? Q. And you never gave to foicera Matteo-Dr Layez one half hour after ycu saw avarything the name Joker, did yea? A. Nav' Q. Yau naver gave to them the name Le?ty, 24' cmrrect? ?Ri Garrett. But yau knaw Jaker and Lefty priar ta Qulyr 1, 19979 A. Yea. Q. Carrac?? 9 i A. Ees. Q. And yam knew them :0 be rivai gang mambers? A. Q. A. Q. Maniac Yes. Of the gang you ware then in, carr?ct? Yes} An? indead the Spanish Cabras and the Lati? Disciples were involved in a rathar tenaa gang war in July of 199?, correct? A. Q. 'kilied Yes. And, in fact, a few ?ays befara Gerda wag JG Reyes smash?d out all 0f the windows cf Jakar?s car with a crowbar, carrect?. A. Q. Q. Yes. You had knowledge Gf that, carrect? Yesi .And that was, the cr?wbar smashing was in part because Joker wag a CObra, carrect? 116 .. Ye$+ and yreddy? Fre?dy is Jaker, Correct? ?30 at that time aid ?cu artitimgte in a - crawbar smashing? A. Q. was there Q. windawa?. A, Qi ccrract? At Na; 1 di?n*t. But that was this is the athe: guy that when Gerda was killed, Jase Yes. Thatfs the man that smashed out the Correct. . Several days before Gerda was killed, Right. Did ycu tell affiters Matteo and Lapez on July 1,-199? that the driver of the car fram which the shots wart fired is a fellow whase were smashed Gut a few days Earlier parsenally ty Josa Reyes? At Q. A. No. 'Did yam tell th?m that? No, New, ware yam-taken to View a burning car? 11? Yea, I was? Was this from the hGSpital Grihad yam b?en' transferred to the police statimn firat? A. From_?~ yeah. I wag at?th? police statian firgt. Q. SQ you want tha hgsgital, yalica Q.?icera tack yam gram the hasyital after-being interviawed by the police at the heapita}, corzact? A. Yes. I?m sorry. It was exactly after the Q. VOkay. Felice dfficers t?en teak yam ta View a burning car, ccrrect? A.. Yes. Yum were cooperating with the police at that time, weren't you? A. Yes, 3 was? MS, MC CARTHY: Objecticn. THE COURT: ?Overruled.le an.- MR. Q. And they took you to the burning car to see if you_c0?ld be_able ta identify that as the ?ar" used_hy the shsoters uaed in this killing of ymur gomd friand, serratt? A. YES. 118 .And you Vi?wad the burning car; correct? Ar Yes. Q. And thase were different ?fiicers that taw? yam ta the burning car, carrect? A. Yas?= Q. Ana you yiewed the car, right? A, Correcz. Q. And you said that is the car that was used by these killers, correct? A. Yes. An? those othe: afficersi ?at ?atten and Lepez, thmse officars that tack yam :9 see a burning car aska? you what you knew abeut the shooting, correct? Yes. Q. Did yum tell either of those-Officers that you knew the Shomtar was Lefty Santiaga? -A. N0. Q. Bid yam tell them aha: yen knew the Shdater? Q. Ei? you tell them that ymu had seen the A. MG. 119 cammittad A. Q. hospital, Did you tell-them that Jakar-was driying? HQ. Bid yam tell them yam knuw, in?aed, who this crime? We. Isn't it true that you told, back to the efficers Lapaz and Matteo, yam didn't knaw ?n ycu d?n*t knaw?wha it Q. . You didn?t see thaw, carrect, that'a what you them? A. Q. Yeah Yeu ?idn't get a gaod 109k at them? THE you?re gming two fast, Mr. Daherty, Finish yaur questicnm ma it a little slower, than let the boy ansWer you. MR. DOHERTY: Thank yaui Excuse me. DOHERTY: Q. You told foicers Lap?z and Mattea that yam didn?t know wha did the crime? A. a. Yea? That ysu didn't sag who did it, carrect? Carrect. .Theaa two guys sitting hearing, Lefty and 120 '24 Jakar, they?re amt ?rienda of ymur?, &ra they? R. Q. 9 Q. E0. They're enemies of your?, aren?t t?ey? Yes. They were enemiea 0f your? than? gas. Did you have any reasan ta prot?at them? No. On July 1? No. ,As a matter 95 faca, you had just garticipatad or you had of an atta?k on them a few days earli?r, correct? A. Qg View the THE foicar? MR. THE Yas. Khan the different Q?ficers :Qak ya? ta burning car COURT: 'Mr. Dcharty, &o thesa ?iffer?nt hava n&mes? DGHERTY: I?m sure they youx Homer. Why yau Eat me who they are; in case it becames r61$Vant at same poin? or a?a?har abcut what happened wizh thcsa twa diffexent officers. 121 #MR. BORE T3: Did Detectives Jacabs and-Giiger transport yen ta 421? west Earth Avan?a tn viaw the burning' automchile? At YES. And you gositivaly identified the automabile, dcrrect? A. Yes, I did; Q. Thase two detectives, Jacobs an? Gilger, alga asked you if yen couid recognize Gr racmgnized who did aha shaoting, correct? A. Yas. . Q. Yau told them yam didn't, tight? A. Right. Q. And you told they asked ycu if you knew who was driving, Cerect? A. Right, Q. You told tham you didn't know was driving, correct? Yes. 'Yau tald them yam didnft get a enaugh lack, correct? I A. Yes. Q, Was there any reason in tha world to 122 . damn?? n??hOprntect ar camcaal'anythimg ahcut aha Eantiaga brathers from Betectivea Jacah? and Gilgar? Am Ho. Ms. MC Objemtian. THE COURT: All right. Ha already answexed. The anawe; is,n31 Overruled. Gm ahead pleaae. R. DGHERTY: How, frem the burning car you were then 'taken ba?k ta tha polid? statiaa? Yes? You stay?d there fmr'the entira ?vehing and into the early morning haurs, correct? A. Yes. Q. What time were ycu released? Abaut seven in the morning? MC Objection* THE COURT: Tc tharusa 0f tha term released. It sounds like he?s in custody. Sustained. MR. DQHERTY: 7 Q. What time did yo? lea?e the police station? A. . Abaut seven, eight o'clock. Q. In the m?rning? A, Yes. 123 yea ware in ?b?re-L?-y?u-ware?iu the palica staticn what, far maybe eight hmurg giv$*cr take'a bit either way? A. -Ju3t abeut. THE COURT: Mr. Ruiz, please kaep your voica up, would you? Next questicn; Mr: Dmharty. MR. I IQ. You were interviewed by numermus police efficars at the palice atation, corract? A. YES. Q. These were additional ?etectivaa, correct? A. yes. Q. Detectives different tham Datectivea, Jaccbs and Gilger, correct? A. Sorrect? Q. And d?tactives, diffarent peopler ufficers other than M?tteo and?Lngz, carrect? A. Year Q. You were trying to help in the solving of the murder of your gomd friend then, weren?t you? ME. ME THE WITNESS: Yes, I was. THE COURT: That's all right. Sustained. ?ext question. 124 . Ex} 10 .12MR. DOHERTY: Q. and about haw many dif?erant that period were yQu interviewed abomt the knowledge that you had abaut the af?enae? A. Once or twice. (Q. Did any assistant statg?s talk tgryou? A. Q. The first time? A. Na. Did you at anytime in the palica-station,. the one or two more occasi?ns that yau spcka to the galiee, say y?u knew gammitted the crime? A: Q. Did you tell any datectivag a: the yciica staticn than that it waa Jcker and Lefty wha were there? ?7 I MC CARTEY: Object to the foundation? THE Na. THE CDURT: Try and ?ay a faundaticn, who ymu are talking about at this paint if you can. T?en yam can ask tha quastian. MR. DGHERTY: Q. AftEr you were taken :0 {ram the 125 :burning car,tw ?ate?tives Jacobs and {Bilge}:1 yam were taken ta wherethe poiica statimnw 25th ?i?trict? Yea, sir. Ana whera wara you pla?ed there? the rmam+ In an inter91ew roam? Yes. were yam handcuffed? No. All right. Were you undar arres?? MC CARTHY: Objactinn. CUURT: Sustaine?. Next questien pleaSQ? DOEERTY: What happene? at th? police staticn? They just .- CQURT: Mr.'Ruiz, please yauy vcice WITEESS: They jus? had me in the xaom lockgd in there. They wouldn?t let ma leaV?. .42- A. DGHERTY: Did the police talk ta you? Yes. 126 must?? 10 11 l2 13 31Cwuid yam de5crihe afficarg that talked.to you? A foicer Guvarra. It was Officer Guverra? A Ye$. 4 Q. "Ybu saw him that evening? a On what day was this? The ?ay that Gardo was killed- A. Yea. I spoke to Officer Guvarra. Q. All right. Did you 88% any other IA. Yes. Q. HUW'many m? ymu say yam were questioned ?ne or two times. ?aw many times were ywu questioned? A. I think about two times. Q. All right. The firs: time yau?re question?? do yam knew who questiane? yam?? A. No, I don't. Q. Can ywu des?ribe the affiaers tha? qua$tioned you? A. Yes. Q- Will you describe them pleage? A. He wag hefe today. Seen him. E8 was talir skinny, 993 black and gray'bair cambad?tamtha Did that_officer an July 1 cr?2;?199? in the_2$th Distri?t police statian ask you what yam knew abQut tha crime? A. Yes. Q. Did Committed the A. we, Q, Did committad the A. Q. Did efficer? Am N0, yau tall that afficer yeu knaw crime? yam tell that officer yam saw wha crima? di?n't. you mention Left? or Joker ta that sir. When'yau were questioned later the_same ?ay} July 2, 997; do you know wha did the questioning than? A, NO, I den?t. Q. Other yolice efficers? A. I don't remember. Q. Well; everybody who was q?estioning ymu was th& police department? A. Yaa? -Di? yam tell any palica officers an yaur_ aecon? quagtia?ing of July 2,.1997 that you saw'wha cammitted the'arima? .NQ. Q. That you knEw di? it? No. I Qw Enda?d yen were asked t0 fusnish a7 descriptian oi tha person or persona yau aaw. CCrreet? 'An . Yes. You dooyerated ah& yau furnished that ta the palige? L- A. Yes, I ?id. ms. MC CARTHY: Objectian. THE COURTE icu use the term caeperated* Sustained. You can argue abmut tha? later, Mr. Doherty, MR. DOHERTY: Did yeu tall tha poliae tha? the shaotEr ware a black head? . A. Yea, I did. THE Why don't yam give us tha when _you?ra talking abmut. He ap?arent1y taiked to three Gr faux different sets of polica.? Same at the bagpital, same ?h aha pelice MR. DQHERTY: 0n July 1, 199?Hybu~did~?ell Qf?icers Mattea'and Lapaz that the Shanta: ware a black hom?, correc?? . Yes. . Q. Did ycu tall them that tell GEficerS Matias and Lapez at abaut 11:10 p.m. an July 1, l?97 that the ahmmter was a Strahger ta yam? A. Yesi Qr Did yam tell them the ahenter was a male? A YES. 7 1 Q, . And you wera unable to fuxnish ta ?ham a height dascriptign, correct? A. Correct. And a weight description, correct? A. >Corr?ct. Q. And an and hair and camplexian ?escription; carract? A. Yes. 7 And yam didn?t knaw whether the gantleman 'had any marks or sCars, carrect? Right. Q. Concarning the other two pample in the 133 car, yam were unabla ta furnish any deacriptimn whatsoever! isn?t that true? Yes? Q. rYon didn?? knew any df the ag?g cf tha people in the car, carrect? A. Correci? And you said the ather awe peagla in the? car were strangers to yamr correct? 7 I A. Yes. Qy is that the same ?e?cription that yau gava later at th? burning car ta Datectivas Jaccbs and Gilger? A, Yea, it is* Q. Is that the Sama daacriptien that yam gave later to different police officers in the 25th _District p?lice Station on July Z'and ?a an July 2;7 199?? A. Yesw Indeed yog have a visibn carrect? A Yes, sir. I 9* "'Ymu are 4? #hat is the nature a? your prablem? A. Far sighted. Q. Far sighted? 131 Have yam been preacribed glassea ta Q?ar? A. Yea, sir. Q.. Ra? an the night Garda was mgrderedJ were ycu wearing yaur glasses? No, agr? ME. MG CARTHY: I want the recefd t0 reflect He's not w?aring giasses taday in caurt either. THE CGURTQ The recard will reflect that also. Go ahead? DGHERTY: Q. Ana subsequent :9 July 2, 19$? in-between July 2, 199? and July 6, ?997 w?ra you evar at the palice statian Gr yalice atatians? Yes. Q. About haw many separate timea would yam say? Abeut ?our or_fiva times. Q. All right. Haw did that came about? E. I wauld be autside aid the? would-just come araund lacking for me. Q. Who is they? TRE CGURT: Sir, please keep.your voice up, would you? 132 MR, UGHEETY: Q9 Detectives? A. Detectives: Q. And when the detectives famed yea in~between July 2 and Juiy 6, 1997 eid they take yen ta the pelice statien? A. Yes. Were yen questioned at the peliee station? A. Yes, I was, - Q. And were'fou queseioned abeu: the murder 95 Gerda? .A. Yes, I Wee. And did you at anyeime in the ?eue or five times you were taken te the peiice etatiee between July 2 and July 51 199? tell any pelice effieers that you saw whe cemmitted the crimeDid you tell any yoliee Officers that questioned you that you knew whe eommiteed the crime?f' A. Mei Q. And did you tell any peliee mffieere the name Lefty or Jeker? I A. ND, I ?idn?t. 1 Q. 50 where was the W&ke Qf_qu?m? Whara wag 2 that at? 3 I?m not has sure where it wag immate? at. 4 15 that a funeral parlar? 5 A, Yea, it was. 6 Q. 0n the narth ai?e o? Chicago? 7 Yes. I How ?id you get thare? 9 a With his Aunt Mary; 1Q The lady whe testified here? 11' A. Yes. 12 Q. Correct? - 13 A. Yes. l4 TEE CQURT: Arman*5 aunt? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, 15 MR. 1? Q. Di? you tell Mary Oliva anytima En rante' 13 ta aha wake that you knEw who killed bar nepheW? l? A. No. I '29' Q. Did ycu tall Mary Olfvo anytime an rcute 21 to the wake?that you ara walking araund with the 22 knowl?dge of killers are? 23 a. {No au?ibie 24 Q. Did you teil'her that? .. d?n?t'un?erstand ymur queStian?r Q. All right. Excuse me. 'Did yum tell Mary Olive that yam saw wha the kill?ra were an? Ehey?re peaple that yGu?re acquaiht?d with? A. No, Q. Detective Guverra. He said what to you at the wake? EG you recall? Ha, I ?onat. Q. Eut he spoke ta you at the waka? A. Yes. And the next thing yau knaw you ware haing taka? ta the police station? A4 Yes, sirtaken to the galice atatimn frum the wake? A. No, sir; Qf were you goi?g to the Waka ta 100k far palice to talk to them? A4 No, sir. I Q. And again you.find yourself in a palice statimn, corfeqt? A. Yes, sir. Q.v Sc this is abcut the tenth time you ware 135 questimned by the palice t9 yam? MS. EC CARTHY: ijectiwm. THE couRT: I dmn?t think i: :3 that many times. Sustained. ?ak anather questiwm.l I MR. DOHEETE: All ?ight. Lapez and ?atten was the fir?i of?icers that questianed yam, Garrett? A1 Yes. Jacobs and Gilger was tha sacgnd, correct? A. Yes. - Tha same day you were quastioned by twa different sata of officers, cerrect? I A. Yes, I wag. Q. There'S four, carrect? Q7 . And than in~between July 2 and July 6 .there were fDur 0r five mere quastimning sessions at palica atations, carrect?' A. Actually it was abaut five different officeram Q. But an about feur or fiva different -Gcca$ions you?EE'picked uy, taken in and questimned; correct? Pl- Yea I 136 "+4197that wauld be eight gr nima hima? yau?d been questibma? by tha police by the wak?, carrect?" A. au?ihle raspon?a.) THE COURT: Do you undarstand what he?s asking yea? THE WETNESE: NO. MR, Q. DGHERTY: Eight Qt nine Beyarate times, individual times yau have been question?d prior ED the waka of Gardo? A. About fcur or five times I could say? After the initial evening, fcur at five mare; correctAfter the wake? Eighty N0. Aftar the murdar. Yes. 'When_you were taken to the palic? atati?n from the wake, was the wake over? No. Abaut what time ?id you get taken away fram the wake? A i o?alack. Q. About it was prsbably abnut 2:301 three in the afternoon? 13? Yea. And'where ware y?u taken wage yaw arrived at tha palica station? TO the.aame roam they had been taking ma since I have baan going. ymu g?t in that raom arcund three p.m. you would say? Actually it was earlier. THE COURT: Mr. Ruiz, unleaa what you?re sayingrl is meant ta be a sacrat, I told yam far the iaat time, keep your vmice up, would yam please? WITNESS: Actu?lly it was earlier than that. It was abmut 3* i don?t remember what time it started. 1 it was early. MR. DQHERTE: Armund Qhe or p,m. are yea saying? A. Sumewhere around thera.? MR. EOHERTY: May I apprmach the witnes?, yvur Honar? THE.CDURT: auger Go ahaad. MR. DOHERTY: Q. Showing you Peaple's Exhibit mumbar seven for idantification.r Would yam take a at that'exhibit? Is 138 that the thing yam sigmad, the stat?mant yam gigm?d, $132 A . Q. corxect? A. Q. abmut'ona 9:22? A Q. A Q. . All right? The tiM? an it 3:22 pam.. Yes. 30 were you in the golice statian Gr twa as yen say untii at least Yes. When tha sta?ement was aigned or began? Yes, sir? So it wag abnut eight hmura befara you signed the statement, correct, you wera in tha pelice station?? R. Q. for eight Yes, sir. What wefe you doing in th& palice statimn haurs?? Just sittihg there. Sitting in this Imam? Yea, sir+ And who was gues?ioningyou? I-don?t remember aha officer?s name, but he Gnly quastioned me ?ne time and left me in thara 139 Did Officer Guvarra questian you? A. I?m not sure. I dsn't remember. QB At anytime in the six??ay ?eriad Exam July 1. until the time cf the wake, July 6? 199? did ynu ever contact the palice ymurs?lf and tall th? 'palice you knew who committed the murder; thay were people acquainta? t0 yam an? you saw them do it? A. ?iry Q. At anytime between July 1 and Jmly E, did you ever tell anybedy i? tha warld that ymu aaw cammittad the murder! they were peaple- acquainted tn yau, to whom you were acquainted and- Yau saw them do it? A. Na; sir; Q. All right. who mentioned Lefty and Joker firSE? Yam a: Guverra in ygur canversatian with Guverra? I MS. MC CARTHY: ijecticn t0 foumdation. THE COURT: Sustained. Evan if somebmdy did mentian @t first. Sustained. DOHERTE: . July.6, :99? did you have a converaatiwn. r~ or ynu testified about a canversatimn with MG 10Gaverraricarract? Yes. Qg mentiqned a? wha wag the first ta. m?ntion Jckar a?d Lefty? Yam Gr Guvarra? foicar Guvarra.. - 7 Q. All right. ?nd what did he tell you he' wanted done with La?ty and Joker? MS. MC CARTHY: Objection.? THE Gamay: Sus?ainad. Emu can aak him haw the subject came up abmut Lefty and Jaker. MR, DOHERTY: It's cross examination,.Judga. THE COURT: I knaw, but that aSsumes smmething that's mat baen tastifie? abmut so ?ar? Sustainad. MR, DGEERTY: 0? All right. Bid you testify on direct examinatian that Guverra?ahcwad yam polaroid photos 'an? painted Gui Lefty and Jakar and tal? yam what he wanted done, how he wanted this thing apellad out? A. Yes. . What did ha tell you? A.. Well, he told me that ~v he was telli?g me exactly how :0 ?ay what I Was going to say to the guy who came ever to the ?natian who wag writing the "statement ?owmf telling me to make Sure that I get 141 tha? he was Sticking his?93"h? was atiaking'hia head.out'a? tha wimdaw an? ghamging with hia lefa hand, And meat of the Stuff that wag mn?tha? agatement he told me to say. Qf- Well, yam did sea the shmating, carre?t? A. Yes. But you ?idn?t see wh? ahat, did yam?- A. No* I Q. Emu ?idn't reccg?ize 0f the driver 0: anycne elae, did you? Not Sir. Can yau describe the_per59n that yam gaw Shooting? A. He, sir. Q. Anywher? in your-statemen; tuat yam aigned d? yam ha?e a descriptiep Of the'peraon yen 3a? ghosting? I .MS. EC CARTBY: Objection; The statement speaks far itsel?. 7 THE CGURE: If it's in there it is in thexe? If itis it isn?t, _That?s what he said. ?Sustained. MR. DQHERTY: Well, I-don?t think that's in _evidence; Judge, and I THE COURT: It's gaing ta be hacause it'a a? 115413 Statement; It?s gaing"to be in avidEnce Eventually.' So whataver"s in there 11m it+= MR. DDHERTY: Q. Can yam describa tcday anybody 3259 that was ln tha gar ether than the Ehooter? No, sir. Q. Indeed when as scan as you haard shotg you duaked, correct? A. Yes, sir. And you ran fram there,.carract? A. Yes, sir. . And yam di&n*t gee was ah?oti?g, did 'you? MG CARTE3: ijecticn. Thia has been &ska? and answered;- THE I?ll let him anawer Qne mare ti?e. already told ma before about his ver?ien 0f events nawi You can ask him?again. MR. DOHERTY: Strike that. MR. DOHERTY: Q. How, you taid the aasistant state?s attaxney Chaoi Lee that the handwritten statement that ymu signed in th? pelica station.was not 1G3 10isn?t that correct? A. Yes, sir. Q, You tmld-Atterney-Pimk that in March GE 1998 that ymu bald Lae that: correct? A, Yes, sir. Q. Ra?, 25 there anything in the sta?ement that ycu signad in the leica station that says y0u_ Were in fear 5f Lefty or Joker 0r anybody e153 at anytime? MS, MC CARTHY: abjeczion. THE WITNESS: NO. THE COERT: Again the statement will apaak far itself. 3Q susaained. 7 MRS DQHERTY: I am allowed :0 ask a quagtion, Judge? It wauld seem to me it?3 net in evidence right now. How do I know tha State's going to o?fer this evidence? MSQ MC CARTHYE For the record we?re going t0 affax it in evid?nca. THE CGURT: It?s a 1l5?10 ?tatamantw It?s gaing hto be admitted as a prior statement by this witness? SQ sustainad. MR. DOHERTY: Well, alga the State said in opening st?tEment that he was in fear 0f Lefty and Joker;> THE CGURT: Ecu'can ask him if you want t0, much, MR. DDHERTY: b?t Whatevar is in thara-is in th?re, it amesnfk add Dx? you tell anybady'at any nima that you were in fear cf Lefty and A. O. Na, sir? mker? "Naw, the statament that the stata's attorney asked you about that yam pravided ta Mr; ?ick, how did that came abaut. air? A. M3. I don?t undarstan?. MC CARTHY: Objection. MR. DQHERTYE Strike that. THE CUURT: the quagtion. Next queation. MR. MR. P?x? Fine. DQHERTY: All right; He doesn?t umder?tand .?id you receive a letter in the mail? From? 'From a lawyer? Yes. Q: somebo?y ta he a Yas. lawyer? 1907 aid you knaw who the letter was ?xom at the time Y?U?th ?he letter in-your hand??wm A. Q. Yes, Ycu knaw this guy personally bafare yam cpened the latterreceived A. Q. A. A Q. lawyar? Ab we. Had ybu evar mat the person? Had yam ever heard of the pergon? ND. COURT: The person being who? Mr; Pick? DOHERTY: Mr. Pick. COURT: All right. Ge on. And did yam Call the lawyar when you the letter? Yes.? Did force you ta call t?e lawyer? No. I Did anyane pay you ?g call the lawyer? No, sir. Did ahybody threaten you to call the N0. 146' '?53 CGUET: Do me a favor, Mr. Ruiz.- First mf all yam don?t talk laud to begin with, But yam interrupt every single queStien by answering b?f?ra he?s finish?d. _Let him ?inish the question Ga on MR. DQHERTY: Q. Did anymne pay yam to call tha lawyer? A. N0. Qt. Well, you di& mail the lawyar though, _correct? was A. Eas, I dida An? the lawyer askad ycu what the truth carract? - A. Yes. Ms. me CARTHY: Objection. THE CQURT: Overruled. Gm 0n. MR. DGHERTY: Q. Did you agree t0 tell the lawyer the truth? A. Yea. sir. Q. What-is the truth? Did yam sag wha did the shooting Gr did you not?- MS. MC CARTHY: Objaction. 147 24? THE COURT: I?think I w?11?de?ermine that aventually? ?ustai??d? aaia-giv?n his varsiam taday. He didn?t see who did the shaoting. Ha?a give? a previaus versian b?fmre that he @id. GD an. DQHERTY: He's given a previgus ver?ian that he didn?t alsm. THE COURT: 1 have all the versiahs befora me already, Mr. acharty. MR. very ggadm MR. DUHERTY: Q. Did any gangs compel yam to sp?ak ta the lawyer? MS. MC CARTHY2- Objection, VTHE WITNESS: Na, sir. THE COURT: Dvairuled. Ga on? I think he sai?i n9 ona made any ?hreats_mr anything like that. $0 on, 7 Q. Juat cue final questiwn. Gerda, ?e you still C?nsider him.to have been a friend of yours? A, Yes, sir. Q. Yam hung areund ever*day just abmut, di?n?t you? A. Yes, sir. 1&8 .And family, his family memberg axa alga ffiends of yaurs mam, aren?t they; 5: than? A. Yes, air. I Q. Wsuld yam want paopla that you k?aw wh?, in fact, killed your goad friend ta be A. Nor sir. - Q. Weul? yau want smmaho?y that did nat_kili ymur Eriend t9 b? sent ta griaon for killing him? A. Na, sir, MR. DGHERTY: Nothing ?urther. THE Mr. Pick, g6 ahead glease? MR. PICK: Judge, I wauld also like to adcyt' .the crass examination of Mr. Daherty on behaif qf my client. THE rThat?s fine. MR. DOHERTY: Judge, may I bring up ?ne THE COURT: "is it more crass? I maa?f if it 3% you can ask him additimnal_quasti0ns if you wmuld' like? I I MR. DOHERTY: No. I want to discuss the tape. ?aw that the State suggasted I THE CGURT: All right. Gm ahead. What dd year want to discuss abcut the cape? MR. DGHERTY: I_beiieve the State opened the 10 intraduction.and nae 0f the statam?mta th? 2:3. 22 23 2% Kelke ef Videe Systems Ineergereted en? Mr. yiek eel the interviewer., I believe itke interviewed. New rather than Waste a let of time, if 1 could just ask him if w?at he said en the tape was true, and then when we get to 115~10, I think a definitely the matter hae te at lease be eoheidered by the Court, but 7 THE COURT: You want te recall pim and ask him if what he told Mr. Pick in the interview en the tepe was true? MR. Xee. And then intreduee the tape and let the Court View the-tape. It doeem?t have to be right at this moment, but at same peint in thie trial, I MR. PICK: Can I add ene phing? wee COURT: Yea, Mr. Pine. Ge ahead; MR, PEEK: Judge, it was also a sworn statement,? The person whe wee taking the videe tape "is authorize? i beiieve through the State sf Illineie to swear in witnessesthat en the tape? He raised his right hand juet '1ike he did here in court. THE .Xeu can ask him when you get to 151 1ybur crogs of Ruiz'when he?s undar aa?h. That?a n0 problami Than will be b?fare ma ?ne way at a?wthar whether he wasunder oath Wham ha gave the statement? But y?u?re suggesting, Mr? Dsharty, that MR. BQHERTY: Well -- THE COURT: 'Ymu want to.recall him ask him what ?aw? - MR. BGHERTY: Well, if what he said an the tape on March 19,?1998 was under oath and wh?th?r it was true. Rather thau glay the whale tape tmday an? ask ?him if.it?s ?ruth new, I believe that it?s admissible under l15?l? an? it's admisgihla 0g the cross examinatian herei THE COURT: VWell, itfe probably far me to sea the tape ultimately because i have :0 see? the young man's demeanor, what he lcek?d like when he gave this. given er three or fiva maybe different versions cf events up ta?thia paint, The 'first ?ne i3 that the police came t9 the h?apital later the same night; and at ather times according to him_sinca that time. Then the written and the Grand Jury statement was diffarent from what he teetifie? now. And then yam hava a stateme?t along 153 '24 With Mr. Pick which he maintaina that whatahe aml?' you than was the truth* 50 it?s a ultimately which ona af'hia Statements-daeartha Ccurt fin? credibla. MC CARTHY: Conl? I raapand? THE COURT: What ha teatified to.now or later. Y?a; Ms. McCarthy. Go ahead. MS. MC CARTHY: Ymur EonarI the tape rewarded atatament is a priar consistent hag taatified cansistemtly with the ata?ement he gaV? ?bur Qr-five months ago to the defense If h? had tastifie? canaistently with his h&ndwritten amazementland Gxand Jury testimuny, we wmuld mm: h& allawad?ta bring thase up or ?ff?r thmaa ta the Court pr ask the Caurt ta cons;der thoaa Statements. Had he recanted his reaant, than they emuld bring in tha statement March. But that is a prior co?siatent statementi Uhder llS-l? paint one, when a witness takas the stand and mantradicts a atateme?t that they made aither under cath or in-a aigned statament, than those are admia?ible. That does not apply ta this aituation. What da you say about thatJ-Mr. 353 Doherty? MR. DOHERTY: Therars twa-ccnsidexations in ?Mumber cue, and the State did n?t require thia? Th?y Qpen&d_the dser an? for tha testimcny 0f this witness by the question did yam aver tall anyona, did you e?er_tall any galiCe df?icar, aasistana state?s attorney or this Court that your handwritten wag not true. THE CGURT: Let*s assume he aid tall samebody? Does that mean MS. NC CARTHY: That's not what my -- I ?id MR. EOHERTY: No, no. THE COURT: Wait, Mr. Dcherty. Fleaae+ Yeg, Ms. McCarthy. MS. MC CARTHY: I said yam never :mld a state?s the police or walk into t?is haurtrwamv I qaegtione? him about the evants that led up to tha 'March statement and I asked him was that the first time that you told anyane that they did n0: ?o it and he answerad yes, so -- THE CGURT: That9s before me already, The vide? taped statement apparently says that they didn?t do it* 134 552MR. BOHERTX: Judg?, it ?xplaina a lat abmutg' WEil, It ageaka far itsalf just lik? their handwritten statama?i, but THE COURT: The way McCarhhy 3g 3&yi?g it I think she'a right. He teatifi?? in tc?ay that he dbesn't, accarding t6 him; he ?aean't kn?w wh? the shoetar -- th? Shmotar was a: tha driver sf tha car._That i3 monsiatemt.with what he ?aid in tha vidao tape? statement t0 Mr. Fisk apparan?ly? He doegn*t know who did it, he didn?t see the guy? 50 haw is that admissibl? than?' . MR. The door Was epaned THE Wait. It?? a prim: consistent atat?ment cf what he gaid tmday. DOHERTE: Right. But there is an inainuation 0f 3 recgnt fabricatian implicit in ?he questian did yen teli any State*s Attorney, the Court-or polica afficer that yaur handwrittan Statement wa3 not true at any time batween July 6 and today?s date.- . Indead he told he respon?ad ta a letter that was sent to him from an attorney that he didn*t know, went ?owntown with a tctal strang?r, was sworn under ?ath and said this is not true. So-the dab: 135 11 12 .12was open t0 the admission 0f that svi?snss,?m,t_ Numbsr tws, when we get t0 the Csurt at at the same tims the Csurt cstsi?srs? 'ths admissibility sf that as substantive svi?encs I tss?sctfully submit A, the vidss tape is admissibls far the Csurt to cansider an issus sf whethsr the handwritten is trustworthy and rsliahlsk And number two, it's independent substantivs by itself. It's a swarm statement absut the sams thing. MS, MC CARTHY: Can I respond? THE COURT: But -- yes. In a you can; But it?s mat a prior statement. ?s?s tssti?ying today, according ts him, that he cauldn't idsntify the guys in the car, Lefty or Jaksr or the Santiagc brothers. He testified to that today.s MR. EGHERTY: Est to cansidsr whethsr handwrittsn statement is trustworthy and rsiiable; the Usurt must a heating in that tsgard. NC Your Ester; ?ay I be hear?? CGURT: Sure. I?m letting him make his comments} DUHERIY: What if defendant.{sic} this handwritten statement am July 6? Then he 15$ THE COGRT: The ?afandant?v MR. DOHERTY: I mean the wit?ess gave tha handwritt?n statement July 6 and then he went and wrote a letter tn scmeboay that h? waa torturgd hy' the police ahd thatta why he did it. That writing, if he admits it*s aig?ed lay-himr is a?missibie undar ll?nl? as the Cmurt may canaider whether the handwritten statement is truatwotthy and reliable. We have naw a vide? tapea depmsition. Na gang members there, no palice, n3 anybody, strangers and ha explains matters which amplify{ Quick axpiain why his signature came on thmae piece3_cf paper, . Raally, big writing_is duly the gignature, Now he?s TEE COURT: You could have asked him anything you wanted to abnut why his name is an thmee papers. MR. DOHERTY: I?m talking abmut why his words in the tape given Qn March 19 are independently admissible. THE COURT: >And thatis why again? DOHERTY: Issue to ?etermine whether hi5 handwritten atatemant shcul? be admitted as substantive-avidanae under 115?36 one, whatever tha aectimn is. The Court has to consi?er whether it?a 15? . truetwort?y and reliable. -MS. MC Year Henori-that*e net eerrect. COURT2- den?t think that'e cerreet.- ME. MG CARTHE: a?eer 115-10 point two whine wee the new etatete enacted in January ef 199?, if a ?akes :he Fifth on :he stand end the court rules that the has the right ta take the Fifth, in that case-thereis a hearing te determine the me: under ll?ml? point ene. Under 115m10 paint one a prior statement is admieeihle ii it was either teetif?ed :5 under eath or signed by the statement. There's no need for a hearing ta be held. Moreeverj with regard ?e counsel?s ether paint, we're net alleging any recent fabrication since the March statement. 80 in doesn't come in as any kind of prier inconeietent Statement. THE CGURT: Mr. Doherty. MR. Judge, I?ll furnish law because we?re not at the 115~10 point; -Ree?ectfully the State is wrong and indee? we can file a motien to statements if there are circumstances undef which theyare coereed or involuntary er whatever the circumstances may bee. 15$ mum Clearly the Court has to deaermina whethar.evidence under 11~510 is admissibla-and reliabl? and ?trustwarthy. But I'll furnish law an that. MS. ME CARTHY: Yo?r-Hanor ~w THE CGURT: All right* Let Hf? Daherty ?i?ish. MR. BOHERTY: We?re n0: at that paint quite frankly. The S?acific paint I?m at is that the State Qpened the daor to the admissian sf the tape being intraduced ?n the CIOEE ex?minatian of thia witness Via Crassing him an cc?zent vi a handwritten atatemant Grand Jury tastimcny. Mare Specifically by the qua?tian, did you eve? ?211 anybm?y, any police{ this Ceurt or-an asaiazant atate?s attorney, that_yaur handwgittan Statemant was mat truaf N05 But indeed ha told somebady eise. THE COURT: He testified tmday that told the atatars att?rney Chaoi Lee that his handwritten sta?amant waa not true. MR. But the State limited it ta th?t and then.nc one else. They had him.say Gr n3. They limited it to police, assiatan? state*s attarney ache: than Lea and this Ecurt, he never taid it'was nut true. I THE COURT: 30 he tml? tha lawaES, Is that 1519 .204 21 22 23 24 what.ycu mea?? MR. DGHERTY: In resgonge t0 a lettar?sant :9 him he calle? the stranger and appeared far a. depasitian; 3&5, that's admissi?le, that evidancan THE COURT: That's already before me. MR. DOHERTY: It's not. The statement itself is the beat evidance. I COURT: The stat?mant itgalf is a primr canaiStent statement t0 what he testified t9 taday; MR. DQHERTY: But the exceptian THE COURT: Mr. Dohetty, please, He testified t?dayg according to him, that he dcesn?t know wh? did the shooting.' He dmeant "w he knows the Santiago bfothera. but it wasn't themi DOHERTY: Wall, than t0 be very altar! Judge. The partion of that atatemeqt wherein h? tells Mr.-Pick that th? handwritten statement 13 met true is admissible in the crass~axamination of the witness becausa the State opened the deer to_that with that'questian; He n?ver told any law enfarcement officials or the Caurt 7 THE COURT: SQer. Ptck.can subject him t0- arses f?r both sides. If the statement he gave to the police, the han?written statement, exhibit_ 160 number what?var.it wa?, DOHERTY: Eat the be?t evi?ence ia the tapa_ itzelf ts sae-his damaangr, Them aa your Hanmr ruled, and that?5 my matimn ta that; that ahat he admitt?d. MS. MC CARTHY: The has: evidemca ruie ??esn't apply to thia situatian, . THE I don't think 39 eitherw SQ the objectioh i5 Sustainedi I Bring-Mr. Ruiz back. MR. DOHERTE: My initial requast wag ta'aak this gentleman if he the video ?apad statement he- made March 18 was tru? and if it was un?ar math. THE Yeu can ask him that, whether it was under oath. Whethar it was true Qt net} that'a for me to decide uitimataly& The Court ultimately will de?ide which Ruiz? statements was true. DGHERTY: If any. THE COURT: 'If any, correct? Bring out Ruiz piea?e? (Witmeaa resumes atand.) MR.-DOHERTY: May I resume? THE COURT: Yes. Ga ah?a?. 151 BDHERTY: Thank yc? vary mumh. THE COURT: Ywu can ?ak a f??v?d?itioh?i ?questions, Mr, ?cherty?. Ga ahead; MR. DOHEETY: Thank ygu,_JudgeL MR. - Q. Mr, Ruiz, the video taped-statement that yuu gave on March 19, 1998, you were swarm under math prior ta making that statament, carract? A. Yes. I THE CGURT: Mr. Ruiz, I Ehink I have told you far the last time. THE WITNESS: Yes. THE COURT: If you mauld like tD-gQ you better ke?p your vcice up. Ga an. MR. DOHERTY: Q. (And ycu were asked questions by Mr. Pick and ysu gave answers, correct? A. :Yes. MR. BOHERTY: Nothing further. COUET: ?ll right. Mr. Pi?k, go aha?d. EXAMINATION - By ME, PICK: Q. Hello, Mr. Ruiz. I want to.talk to you abaut the vi?eo tape .152 that yau made. Garrett? A. Yea, Remembeg that? Yes, sir. Okay* Now, before you yam tEStifiEd Gr hefcre I started asking;questions on March 19th 0? 1998, you raisad ysur right hand, ?arrect? A. Yes, sir. Q,r? And you ware Enid that you'd swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth SQ heip you God? Yes, sir. Q. And what did y?u respand to that question when a$ke? that queation? A. I said yes. Okay. I askad you whether 0r not'ya? wage there on that day voluntarily, aorregt? A. Yes. And I agke? you if you ware thara'pursuaat to your gang paying yam to be there, carrect? MC dbjecticn to all this, yaur Humor. Thia is ina?missible. He?s how gai?g inta the centents Gf the statement.- COURT: Yam can ask him-if knows'thinga 163 hapganad as to that! whather at not h%.necassarily a?ke? him th?t. PICK: 'Well, aid you my am March 19,?1998 to talk ta me by farce of yuur gang? A. Na, sir. . Q. Did yaur gang pay you tn came? A. He, sir. Q. Did you did year gang tail you that if you dcn?t came talk to me, yau?ra going to get beaten up or hurt? A.- No, sir: Did they say that yaur family would bE??w hurt if yam caul?nfamily, the Santiagos, did any of Eheir family tell you yqu have ta come his family, thair family members pay you any mcney to same see me.0n March 19? No, sir. Did any 3f the Santiagoa* family threaten 164 1 _?Qu in any way physical harm.tm yam? 3. Bid any persmn, inclu?in? my?aif Qr Mr. 4 Dchart? 0r anywhere; threa?en yam to same to 5 my office an March 19? - Ng, sir. 7 Q. Maw, I talked to ymu am March 13; 1398, 8 correct? 9 A. Yas, air. 10 - Q. an the phone. 11 And I asked ymu if I_a9uld ?oma to yourr 12? hmuse to pick yuu up, carrecc? 13 Yes, sir. 14 Q. 'And what did yen say? 15 A. I said it was Gkay. 16' Q. 'And you came db?n yOu Came down to my\ 17 office after I picked you up, carrect? 18 A, Yes, sir. 19 . Q. Did I tell yam that ybu'could ?4 I would 20 take you hom? ?t any ti?e? - 21 A, Yes! sir. 22 Qi And that I wauld mm: hasitate taking yau 23 home at any time yam asked ta g? hcme, carract? 24 A. Yes, Sir. 165 coma_?owm? A. No, sir. 0. Now, when I wag asking yOurquestiQns ghgxe I i was anathar parSGn 1n the room, correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. Can yam dascribe the kind.0f r?am tha? we Were *a we were in? MC CARTHY:"Objeciian tn the relevance. THE Qverr?led. You dam answer the question if ycu f?call.what kind of rcom yam were in. THE It wag a raom with with a long table, a few chairs am? a camera. MR. PICK: Okay. On March 19 ycu told me that you didn?t know who did the shoating, carrect? A, Yea, sgr. Q. And Ymu told me why you gave a ataaemantj_ a handwritten statement to the palice? ?Ms? MC.CARTHY: Obj?ction. THE COURTdid th?t a3 oppesad to what he tol? you. So susaaine?. ?ak PICK: Q. Did yum tall ma that the why you signed a statament MS. MC CERTHY: Same abj?cticn. THE EQURT: I?m serry. I I?ll rephrase. THE COURT: Okay. Start again, Mr. Fick. MEL PICK: Q, why did you Sign the statemant for the polica am July 9th cf EQBE k. Eacauae that?s what the? wamtad ma t? do. Q. But why did you Sign in? I why did I sign it? I want?d t9 get gt over with. I was hired of them coming ta pick me up and taking me damn to the Staticm an? leaving ma there. Q. What do you mean? rYou were tired Gf that? A. They were picking me a? as many times, it was just Q. rThey wouldn1t leav? you alane? A. Carx?ct. I Q. Did tHEy tell you that they weuld stap leave you alane if yam aignad the statema?t? A. No, thay didn't. Q. They did not tall yam that? 16? Mm, air. 'Well, at_any nima that yam were at tha' 25th District hefare yam ?ighad th??tat?m&nt wera you given any facd at anytime? 3. Na, sir. Q. Were you given f??d aftar you aignad tha' statement? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wer? yeu givem pap anytime befcre ycu ?signed the statement? No, sir. Q. I Were ycu given pap aiter you signad the statement? Yes, sir: Q. - And when you were at the palice atatimn priar to signing the statem?n?, ymu were placed i? a locked interrogati?n roam, carragt? . A. Yes. Q. Were y?u free to leave the police atatinn on each time yau wer? at the ataticn, were yam free ta leav??_ ME. ME ijamtian. THE COURTwag kept there. He wouldn't neceaSariiy k?ow if he was freer 168 ilk}: Lnleave 0r mat. Sm guatained; Q4 Well, ?id the palice e??r tell ymu yen were free ta leave whe? you ware at the station??r A. No, sir. Q, when yet were at the station cauld you have walked mut? I MS. MC CARTHY: ObjECtion. THE WITNESS: Ho. THE COURT: Sugtainedwas kept; if he ever asked ta laave, but mat that question. ?Sustainedu MR. Q. You earlier you talked abaut haw Detective Guverra at the wake I?m Berry? The dayr cf the wake when yen were back at the pal?ce staticn yau talked abagt how he told you what he Qanted yau to say, De yQu remember you talking abaut that earlier tcday? A. Yea; sir? Q.. Okay. An? did he teli ycu Why he wanted- yam ta_p9int out Lefty an? Joker?l A. No, siri 169 wi? any pelise mfficers tall-you why? A. Map air. I Q. Gr dat?ciives? A. Ea, sir? Q. why didn?t you tell the pelica about the beating up o? ona cf the Santiagas? cars? MS. MC CERTHE: Objectian. Asaumaa a fact net in evidance. EHE COURT: I don?t think the ward baating up i3 sorrect anywhare. You don?t baat up an inanimate abject. So austainad. MS. MC CARTHY: It didn?t tell? THE CQURT: Stain again glease, Mr. Pick. Q. Why did you not tell any police affiaer? ?r detectivas abaut damaging ane 5f the Santiagas' carg? I I MS. MC CARTHY: Ubjecaian. A5$?meg a fact not in evidence; THE COBRT: It asa?me? he didn't tell. Y?u can him first GE all if he ?id tell them er not. If he saya he di?n'didn?t* Sustained. MR, FISH: Q. Uid.yau ever tell yam damaged cne 0f ?ha Santiagqs? cars? Na, sir. Q. Why man? MC CARTHY: Objection. THE CGURT: Firgt cf all sust?ine?a He didn?t say he did. He claims it was Reyes who did it and he Wagn't there at the tim?. MR. PICK: Q. The first time that this car draws by an -Gran? Avenug an J?ly 1 were you able ta tell that wha Was in the car at that?time? A. No, sir+ Q. Were you able t0 tall who was in the car as the car drove by the second time? No, sir. Q. An& tha car that ?rova by thb$e times ymu Eater idantified that evening ar the aarly morning of the 2nd, carract? A. Yesi sir. Q. And that was the car that drava by th?se two times? Year 171 '.24 And that ahots were fira? on: Q5 that car, that wag w~ that ya? idantifiad later th?'?ext dayg?w~ right? A. Yea, air. Rad when thase -u when this person leaned out GE the car :0 Eh??t, thissparson had a black heady an, correct? Yea, air. Q. And thi? black hcoay was over his head, carrect? A. Yes, sir. Q. And when I Wham I talk t0 ydu ahau? a blagk heady, that?s a sweat shirt with a haad an it, carrect? A. sir. Q. ?.And the head ??'the head part was up mvex the head: cbrrect? - I A. Yes, sir. Q. Haw, when you say that yam ?4 you Lefty befcre the shoating, did yau know his face 0r di?'yau just RRQW him.by name? Bath. Q. Yam knew him by name and'faca? A. '17? Whe? you were at the wak?, di? yQUIwant to laava the wake with tha polite-officers? Na, sir?? Q. Did yam feel that yam were tak?n from that wake against year will? I MS. MC CARTHY: Ob?ectiom. THE CUERT: >Ha?s alrea?y tol? us ha didn?t really want to g0. Sustainad. Next qu?$tioni please. MR. PICK: Judge, just a moment. COURT: Rm - (RECESS taken.? MR. FICK: Why did you come and give me the statement an March 19? 1 ms. MC CARTHY: abjection; THE COURT: Overrul?a. You ?an anaw?r the question. THE Becausa I ?elt that I did tha thing. I MR. PEEK: QQ What do you mean you did the thing? That?s mat what I wanted to ?311 the OffiCEf fram the beginning,- 1?3 Why mat? it?$ What is true? 0 T??t'l di?nft gag nmbady. Q. SQ it'g nd: true that u- what yauire saying is it?s mat true what yam said in aha statement ts the palic?? A. Right. MR. PICK: I?m sorry, Sudgek trying to find a repart; THE That?s all right. 'Taka your aime; MR. PICK: Q. At gama point on July_i-mr th? earl? merning hours of July 2 yam talked with an Bfficar Wickery, carrect? A. I do??t remember. Q. Do yum remember an officar alse by the name of Virgilic? A, 'No, Sir. Q. D5 you remember telling ITEE COERT: Lay a faun?ation as ta where Supposedly the canv?rsation wasg Pick? Than you. can go from Chara. the MR. PEEK: Q. .At the hmapital did you evar tell any~ mffiaars nw yam told officer? that yam fall t? the grmund and than you fled sauthbound En-pringfiel?r carrect? (n3 au?ible re?po?39.) Did y?u tell m??icers that? A He. 1 ran. I ran. I?m THE COURT: There?s no quastimn. QG ahead please, Mr. Pick. MR. PICK: Q. Did yeu ever tell an Officer Wiak?ry ar an D?ficer Virgilio that yau knaw Lefty and Joker am July 2? Did you ever tell those officaxg?mv any o? thoaa cfficars.that you knew them? A. No. MR. PICK: I hava nothing further, Judgaa TEE ratate, rediract.. REDIRECT EXAMIEATIGN By MC CARTHY: Yam said that ther?asen that yam talka? to this in March of ahis year was becausa you felt bad abaut the lies :hat yam in July.mf 9.4 Li?i That's not the atatement I wanted t0 givgus. Q. Is that what you said, yam falt bad about what you had said last year and tha??s-why yDu? agree? to talk to him in March 3f this yaar? Q. And?w- THE COSRT: Pardon me? Yaur angwer was yea? THE 'fes. MS. MC And ycu felt so bad about pinning a murder on two innacent_pesple that you just sat ax homa waiting far someone.to call you, Rmberf? A. sir; I mean nof ma?am. THE COURT: I didn?t sir, um; Mr. Ruiz. This is getting tireeame. Kaep ymur vaice up, waul? you please? THE WITNESS: Yes: sir; ms] MC CARTHY: Q. 39? A. N0. Q. But you di?n?t talk ta the atterney until. .after be contacted you, right? A. Right. Nawg you t?stifia? an cross examinatia? that ywu tank an oath bafora yam game that stateman? in March of this yaar, right? As Yea. Q. You also took that math to tell the truih befara the Grand you? I 1 Yes. But you lied bafere the Gra?d Jury, didn?t you, RabErC? A. Yea, ma?am. Q, Tau teak an oath ta tall the truth taday in this courtroam, didn*t you? A. Yes. Q. The math really means nothing ta you, dues it; Robert?- A. Yes, it ?oea.j Q. You?re willin? to lie under ycu? A. No, 3*m not! Q. But you have lied undar oath, E?bert. A I knaw I have. Qk So you are willing ta lie under Gath, aren?t you? A. No. 17? New, yam testifiad an wxma3n&xaminati9n that yen maven tald?tha pwlime abnut the f??t thatV Jaker?s car get damaged? A. Carrect. Qp In_fact, YGu-did tell the palica a%aut that whale incident; didn?t yam? A. Jase di?. Emu di? tell aha palica and :he st?ta*s attornay absut new that -- I MR. Objacticn ta tha lea?ingf Judge; THE a witngg? i? mat called by ?ither Side by So avexruled. M3. MC Q. ?au the palice amd ?he Easigta?ti Statefa attorney back in July of ?97 abgut haw that girl got ?hst by what you and ymur friend b?liayed to be a Cmbra, carrect?, MR. PICK: Objection. THE co?aw: Basis being what? MR. PICK: This is way bayond t%e agape GE crass examination an? way beyand.a~ and thia waan*t .even hraught cut on cross examinatimn} MS. MC Caungel opened tha ?mmx when'ha asked -w 178 inIJTHE CEURT: It gees as the e135 er "1 metive teetifying. He has given twe'er three?? difference vereiene about what happened ee far. we; PICK: -Judge, I ebject.te there's been me teetimeny of any sheeting. THE COURT: The Court wili net ee-eelled sheeting to either ef the you can ask him the Question how it with the ease. Overr?led. me. me CARTHY: Weli, you teld the peliee' Attorney abeut haw Jose had smashed Joker?s ear in June, correct? Yee. Yes, IO 3? it" cennect any defendants. gut might eenneet and State?s the windows of' A few days before the murder, right? . ?nd you told the poiice and the state's attorney that the reason-that Joee'smaehed the windewe en Joker?e ear is because you and year friend believed a Cebra had shot a girl bae% in June: on Eune 21, correct? A, ND. Q. Yeu_didn?t tell the police that? Ne. 13Y?sv Q. Emu have tald ma that yam have a Qrdbiem with year Vi?idn? carract? A. Yeg. .Q. Anddm-yeu have prablems ageing things up close at saeing :hing? far away? A. Far. Q, HQW far can yum, SE8 Rob?rt? A. i?m as: sure. Q. Well, hem far can yo? sea? Fi?k gut Samathing in this courtraom and tell ma haw far fan can geetha wall over there. Q. You dam see the back wall? A. Yes. MC CARTHY: ,Indicating for record abcu? forty f?at. THE COURT: think it?s abwut than far. MS. MC EARTHY: Q. And yam can Sea that fine withmua glassea, ccfrect? I Uhu?uh. Q. Is that a yes? 181 1.woxn glasses, Yaar new lang ha? it ymu'va Robert? Prebably about years. Yeah. Ysu weren't wearing glassas talkimg ,t3 the golica in Suly, wara yau?r No, I wasn?t. Q. You waran?t weariag gla?sas when yam gave that statement in March, were you? A. .9- have come A. .Qi HQ: An? you haven?t warn glassaa anytime yam ta caurt here, have yam? No; You'ra able ta get armund just ?ima, aren?t yam? a. Q.7 Yea. Nowr when Josa Smaghed the windewg on Jcker's car, to yaur knewledga Joker waver want t6 tha police, did he? ER. DOHERTY: Ghjecaign. PICK: Objectian. CCURT: That will be sustained. He wauldn't have that; Sustaine?i CARTHY: Well, da yen was-avar axfeated far that incidant? MR. PECK: Objecticn._w? THE He can angwer that part. If it happened, if Reye? was arrastad or net. It'a averruled. THE WITNESS: Na. M3. MC CARTHY: Q. Well! 18 it fair :0 say that gahg mambera den?t really lika ta call police?? MR. DOHERTY: Ubjectien. MC CARTHY: Q. 0n gang mamberg? THE COURT: Sustained. I think E?ve heax? encugh about thia ga?g stuff. MS. MC CARTHY: Q, 'Wall, the night of the Shaoting the raasan that you gave the golice that address is because you didn't really Jan: the pelica to find you after that, di? you? A. Right+ I New, yam said that tha'polica Gama ta you several timea betwaen July 1 and July 183 10 pa 12 13? 14Yagn And amy time the police came tn you, Egbert, yam g0 with them ta the Area, didn?t yen? I NQ. Q. Well, did they han?cn?? yen and take you in the car? A. No. Q. Did they atop, jump cut of the car an? throw you in the back saat and spaed away? A. Yeg. Thay did? I - A. Yea; Q. So ?hey would get Gut Qf the car and literally grab you, right? A. Well, they wanldn?t grab me. but as sash .as I (aicknew what was already going :0 happen. I m&an as gown as they 'out of the car. Q. Did they ever grab'ymu and force you intd their car? Tag? Q. They did? A9 Yes. 184 segand. On the Raally. .And describa exactly'what they wwuld .where would they grab yam when they wage d?ihg?that? ii At the wake. Well, wa Will get wake in a Eut when yen say they came and.fmund-ymu straet, they?d grab you and throw you in tha back seat of their car? A. Q. Q. Nag No. Na. They asked yam if yam wmuld gc to the station with them, di?n?t they? A. N0. They tald me I was going to the Statian with them. Q. yea? A. them chaice in the mattax? Exactly. .Did ycu say I don't want t0 go? Yes. And then what they say? ?id they grab Yes+ They didn?t thay gaid m? told didn?t want ?9 gm. They tald me I have ta g0 185