Page 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS EASTERN DIVISION JACQUES RIVERA, ) ) Plaintiff, ) ) vs. ) ) REYNALDO GUEVARA, STEVE GAWRYS, ) DANIEL NOON, JOHN GUZMAN, ) JOSEPH FALLON, JOSEPH SPARKS, ) PAUL ZACHARIAS, GILLIAN ) McLAUGHLIN, JOHN LEONARD, ) EDWARD MINGEY, RUSSEL WEINGART, ) and the ESTATE OF ROCCO RINALDI, ) Chicago Police detectives; and ) the CITY OF CHICAGO, ) ) Defendants. ) No. 12 CV 04428 The deposition of JOSÉ MELENDEZ, taken pursuant to subpoena of taking deposition, before Barbara A. Wichmann, Certified Shorthand Reporter No. 084-001492, at the Boone County Jail, 615 North Main Street, Belvidere, Illinois, on Monday, June 30, 2014, commencing at 10:23 o'clock a.m. APPEARANCES: LOEVY & LOEVY, by MR. ANAND SWAMINATHAN (312 North May Street, Suite 100 Chicago, Illinois 60607 rswaminathan@loevy.com) appeared on behalf of the plaintiff; Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 APPEARANCES: (Cont'd) THE SOTOS LAW FIRM, P.C., by MR. ANDREW GRILL (550 East Devon, Suite 150 Itasca, Illinois 60143 agrill@jsotoslaw.com) appeared on behalf of the detective defendants; ROCK FUSCO & CONNELLY, LLC, by MR. BRANDON CARNES (321 North Clark Street, Suite 2200 Chicago, Illinois 60654 bcarnes@rockfuscoconnelly.com) appeared on behalf of the defendant City of Chicago; LAW OFFICE OF GREGORY N. DUTCH, by MR. GREGORY N. DUTCH (119 Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd., Suite 202 Madison, Wisconsin 53703 gnd@mydllaw.com) appeared on behalf of the deponent in case No. 13 CR 50006. 14 15 * * * * * * 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 3 1 I N D E X 2 Witness: Page 3 JOSÉ MELENDEZ 4 Examination by: 5 Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. 6 7 Grill.................... Swaminathan.............. Grill.................... Swaminathan.............. 8 E X H I B I T S 9 10 5 192 225 233 (Exhibits attached/scanned.) No. Description 11 Marked/Referenced 1 Handwritten statement of Jose Melendez, 5/30/95...................... 156 2 Transcript of Melendez trial testimony.............................. 203 12 13 14 15 - - - 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 4 1 (Witness duly sworn.) 2 THE WITNESS: 3 MR. GRILL: Yes. Okay. Let the record reflect 4 this the deposition of José Melendez, taken 5 pursuant to subpoena and the Federal Rules of Civil 6 Procedure and the local rules of the Northern 7 District of Illinois in case No. 12 C 4428, 8 captioned Jacques Rivera v. City of Chicago et al., 9 pending in the U. S. District Court for the 10 Northern District of Illinois. 11 This deposition is being taken at 12 the Boone county jail, located at 615 North Main 13 Street, Belvidere, Illinois, 61108. 14 Present, in addition to me and the 15 deponent, are -- and if everybody would please just 16 for the record introduce themselves and who you 17 represent. 18 19 20 21 Go ahead. MR. CARNES: Brandon Carnes on behalf of the City of Chicago. MR. SWAMINATHAN: I represent the plaintiff, 22 Jacques Rivera, against the City of Chicago and 23 certain officers. 24 MR. DUTCH: Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. And I'm Greg Dutch, and I 312.781.9586 Page 5 1 represent José Melendez in a criminal matter. 2 (Witness sworn.) 3 JOSÉ MELENDEZ 4 called as a witness herein, having been first duly 5 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 6 7 8 9 EXAMINATION BY MR. GRILL: Q. Okay. Mr. Melendez, have you ever given a deposition before? 10 A. No. 11 Q. And I'm just going to go over with you 12 a few of the ground rules about how things are 13 going to go down today so we can get through this 14 as quickly and as efficiently as possible. 15 As you can see, there is a court 16 reporter here typing down whatever everybody is 17 going to be saying. 18 questions, and then some of the other attorneys, 19 when I'm done asking you questions, may ask a few 20 follow-up questions. 21 I'm going to be asking you All right. Because things are being recorded 22 with essentially a fancy typewriter, it's 23 imperative that, in order to make a clear record 24 and prevent us having to come back and do this Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 6 1 again in the future, that we each speak one at a 2 time. 3 For example, you know, when you are 4 having conversations with people casually, it's 5 pretty usual to kind of predict what the question 6 is that somebody is asking you, and so you start 7 talking before that person is done asking you the 8 question. 9 We want to try to avoid that as best 10 as possible here because she can't write down what 11 two people are saying at the same time. 12 Okay? So whenever someone's asking you a 13 question, just wait for the question to be 14 completed before you start giving your answer. 15 If you don't understand something 16 that I've asked you or anybody else here asks you 17 at any point, you are not under any obligation to 18 guess at what it is somebody is asking you, so you 19 don't have to stay quiet. 20 ask somebody to repeat themselves, to say I didn't 21 understand. 22 23 24 You are totally free to And so, you know, speak up if you don't understand what somebody is asking you. If you hear somebody say the word Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 7 1 "Objection," just stop your answer, let us make the 2 objections and the record that we need to make. 3 4 But you are still going to be obligated to answer the question. 5 Okay? And I see that you're kind of 6 nodding your head up and down. 7 either, because she can't write down gestures. 8 So at the very minimum to every 9 10 question that's asked, at least provide a yes or a no verbally. Okay? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. 13 That doesn't work Does that make sense? Okay. Great. 14 If you need to take a break at any 15 point, just let us know. And I just ask that if 16 there's a question that's been asked to you, that 17 you finish answering it before we take a break. 18 Okay? 19 All right. I think that's it. 20 Do you have any questions so far? 21 A. No. 22 Q. So, José, do you have a nickname? 23 24 Have you ever gone by any name other than José? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 8 1 A. They just call me Macho. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And prior being incarcerated here at And that's M-a-c-h-o? 5 the Boone County Jail, where did you live before 6 that? 7 A. 8 9 Before I lived in Rockford, I lived in Chicago. 10 11 Q. A. Q. 18 19 Have you lived at the same address in Rockford for those six years? 16 17 I've been living there like about six years. 14 15 How long did you live in Rockford before -- after leaving Chicago? 12 13 I lived in Rockford. A. Like the first four or five years, Q. Okay. yeah. Do you remember what the address was that you lived at? 20 A. It was on Sixth Street. 21 Q. Who did you live there with? 22 A. With my girl. 23 Q. What's her name? 24 A. Mia Soltero. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 9 1 Q. Can you spell that? 2 A. Mia, M-i-a, S-o-l-t-e-r-o. 3 Q. Do you have children with her? 4 A. No, no children with her. 5 Q. Okay. 6 Anybody else live at that address with you? 7 A. No. Just me, her, and her kids. 8 Q. Do you know where she lives now? 9 A. Yeah. She just -- we just -- we were 10 living on Crosby. 11 beginning of the year sometime. 12 She just moved like in the I mean the beginning of last 13 month -- this month that just passed. 14 new address. So she got a 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. And I believe it's on Lound -- Lound 17 18 19 Avenue, L-o-u-n-d, somewhere. Q. Did you meet her here in Rockford, or did you -- 20 A. Yeah. In Rockford. 21 Q. Okay. And you lived with her for the 22 five or four years? 23 A. Six years, yeah. 24 Q. Okay. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. Have you ever spoken with her 312.781.9586 Page 10 1 about -- well, strike that question. 2 Do you know how to reach her still? 3 Like if we wanted to ever get ahold 4 of her, do you know how to reach her? 5 Do you have her phone number, for 6 example? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. Yes? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Do you know her phone number now? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. Can you give it to me, please? 13 A. 1-815-977-0353. 14 Q. 0353? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. So prior to moving to Rockford, where 17 did you -- where was the last place you lived in 18 Chicago before moving to Rockford? 19 A. I want to say I was staying with my 20 brother on the south side, 50 -- 50 -- between 52nd 21 and 55th, I think it was, by Kedzie. 22 Q. And when you say brother, was this -- 23 A. My real brother. 24 Q. -- your actual brother? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 11 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. Justo Nava. 4 Q. Can you spell that for the record? 5 A. J-u-s-t-o, N-a-v-a. 6 Q. And is that his first name? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. What's his last name? 9 A. Nava, N-a-v-a. 10 Q. N-a-v-a? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. Gotcha. 13 What's his name? Nava. All right. And how long did you live with him for? 14 A. Oh, about a year, probably. 15 Q. And where did you live before that, if 16 you remember? 17 18 A. I can't -- I can't remember all these addresses. 19 Q. Okay. So let me just cut to the chase 20 here. 21 shot, correct? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. And if I told you that happened on or 24 You remember, I would imagine, when Nuni was about May 23rd, 1995, would you have any reason to Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 12 1 2 3 4 5 disagree with that date? A. It just have been in the nineties sometime. Q. Okay. was shot? 6 7 8 9 10 11 Where were you living when Nuni And Nuni is spelled N-u-n-i. A. I don't know if I was on -- I don't remember if I was living on Potomac. Q. Okay. And who were you living with there at the time, when he was shot in 1995? A. My girl, my kid, one of my kids. 12 I don't know if it was Michele or if 13 I was just staying there by myself at the time. 14 can't recall. 15 16 Q. I can't tell you that. Okay. And so you were born March 2nd, 1969, correct -- 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- is your birthdate? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Your Social Security number is 21 I 332-56-6049? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. How old, then, were you when Nuni was 24 shot, roughly? I can't do the math in my head that Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 13 1 fast? 2 A. I can't -- in '95? 3 In my twenties sometime. 4 5 Q. And at that time were you a member of a street gang? 6 7 Let's see. A. Yeah. I was -- yeah, I was -- I was a King at the time. 8 Q. And that's a Latin King? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. And what year did you join the Latin 11 Kings? 12 A. Like in the eighties. 13 Q. Did you hold any position of rank or 14 authority with the Latin Kings at the time Nuni was 15 shot? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Are you still a member of the Latin 18 Kings today? 19 A. No. 20 Q. When did you get out of the Latin 21 22 Kings? A. 23 24 No. It's been many years already. I'm not a gangbanger now. Q. And I just have to ask this for backup. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 14 1 A. Yeah, I don't know -- gangbanging -- I 2 tried to leave -- I tried to leave that behind, 3 so -- you know. 4 5 Q. Were you out of the Latin Kings when you moved to Rockford six years ago or so? 6 A. Yeah. I wasn't -- I wasn't active, you 7 know, like -- we say I wasn't active. 8 doing nothing with them, you know; was doing my own 9 thing. 10 Q. I wasn't How did you -- or did you ever 11 communicate in any way to any other members of the 12 Latin Kings that you were not going to be involved 13 with them any more? 14 A. No, I didn't tell them. 15 Q. So you just left? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. You never had to go through any process 18 I just moved. of any sort in order to leave the gang? 19 A. No. 20 Q. So the way you describe it is you're 21 just not active any more -- 22 A. No. 23 Q. -- meaning you don't associate with any 24 Latin King gang members? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 15 1 A. Right. 2 Q. Did you associate with any gang members 3 prior to being incarcerated here at the Boone 4 County Jail and moving to Rockford? 5 A. I mean, I can't tell who's in a gang or 6 what. 7 to them, you know? 8 person, you know. 9 10 I talk to anybody. Q. They talk to me, I talk I just look at everybody like a Did you go by any other nicknames other than Macho? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Now, you indicated that you had some 13 children. 14 15 A. Well, I got nine living. I had twelve, Three passed away. Not with me; I just -- these were different girls. 18 19 How many children do you have? and nine living. 16 17 Just Macho. Q. The three that passed away, how did they -- each one of them pass away? 20 A. Crib death. One died in the coming out 21 of birth, and the other one -- he had a -- I don't 22 know. 23 24 Something wrong with his heart. Q. Are any of your other children, to your knowledge, members of any gangs, like the Latin Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 16 1 Kings? 2 A. Not really, no. 3 None of them. I don't know if my older son -- I 4 don't know what he's doing, so I can't really tell 5 you. 6 Q. Are you married today? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Have you ever been married? 9 A. No. 10 Q. All right. And of all these children 11 that you've had, how many -- do they all have the 12 same mother? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you keep in contact with any of 15 16 Five different moms. those -- of your children's mothers? A. Not really. But, you know, when I 17 call, I -- sometimes I -- like hi, you know; I 18 mostly talk to my kids when I do call. 19 20 Q. Can you give me the names of the five women that you've had these children with? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. And I'd ask, for each one, if you could 23 24 Eletuera Garay. spell it for the court reporter. A. Eletuera -- E-l-e-t-u-e-r-a. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 17 1 Garay, G-a-r-a-y. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. Michele -- Michele Perez. 4 The next one? Cindy Cedeno. 5 Q. Can you spell Cedeno, please. 6 A. Cedeno, C-e-d-e-n-o. 7 Elizabeth DeLeon. 8 Indiana. 9 other one. 10 Q. She lives in And -- Cindy -- and I can't remember the So unless you've indicated that they 11 lived out of state, the other women that you 12 mentioned all live in Illinois? 13 A. In Chicago, yeah. 14 Q. In Chicago? 15 Okay. Are you on any medications today 16 that would interfere with your ability to answer 17 any of my questions honestly? 18 19 20 A. I'm taking some pill, Anaprox right now, for some pain. Q. I don't know what that ... And I notice today that you have -- 21 your right arm is in a sling. 22 from your forearm down to your wrist is in a cast; 23 is that correct? 24 A. Yes. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 And it looks like Page 18 1 Q. Can you just for the record explain to 2 me what the injury is that you sustained to your 3 right arm? 4 A. I got a broken bone in my arm, by my 6 Q. How did you sustain that injury? 7 A. I just -- I was working out in the Q. Okay. 5 8 9 10 hand. cell. It wasn't a result of any fight or anything like that? 11 A. No. No. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And the pain medication that you said And it's broken? 15 you're on, that doesn't interfere with your ability 16 to understand my questions or to answer me 17 truthfully today? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you feel fine and capable of 20 proceeding with this deposition today? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. And that's the only medication that 23 24 you're on? A. Yes, sir. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 19 1 2 Q. Okay. Did you review any documents before attending this deposition today? 3 A. No. 4 Q. And you have an attorney representing 5 you today at the deposition, correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And that attorney is seated to your 8 right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you meet with Mr. Dutch to prepare 13 And it's Mr. Dutch, correct? for your deposition today at all? 14 A. I mean, he told me you were going to 15 come talk to me, whenever you -- and I got your 16 letter saying that you was going to be here. 17 So I knew you was going to come here. 18 Q. But other than that, nothing else? 19 A. No, just -- I got a -- still a criminal 20 21 22 23 24 case. That's what we're talking about. Q. And you just pointed to some documents that are on the table in front of you. Are those -- it looks like it's a transcript; is that correct? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 20 1 2 3 4 A. Yeah. That's from another case, from a case I'm on right now. Q. But that's not from the case involving Nuni's death, correct? 5 A. No. 6 Q. All right. 7 Are you familiar with the law firm of Loevy and Loevy? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Has any other attorney other than 10 Mr. Dutch attempted to contact you personally in 11 regards to this deposition today? 12 A. I mean, I got letters in the mail, but 13 I don't know -- you know, I don't know who they 14 were from. 15 know who they were. 16 don't talk to nobody about this. 17 Q. Somebody called the house. Okay. I don't You know, like I said, I -- I Now, you said you got letters in 18 the mail. 19 while you were at the Boone County Jail? 20 A. Were those letters sent to you here Yeah, it was something about getting a 21 subpoena for something. 22 might have been the same thing for a job you just 23 did, so I don't know if it's the same thing. 24 Q. Okay. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. I got a subpoena -- it So it's something that -- 312.781.9586 Page 21 1 2 A. I didn't really pay any attention to that because I'm focusing more on my criminal case. 3 Q. Sure. So you believe that the 4 correspondence that you received in the mail was 5 correspondence that was alerting you to this 6 deposition? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. Did you receive any other 9 10 correspondence other than that that you can remember? 11 A. No. 12 Q. And you said people had called your 13 house. 14 deposition? 15 Was it also -- were those calls about this A. I don't -- they didn't -- they just 16 asked if I was there. 17 that I was locked up, and that was all they said. 18 Q. 19 calling? 20 A. 21 24 Do you know who it was that was No. I was trying to find out, and I couldn't find out. 22 23 And my family told them no, Q. And this information was relayed to you A. My family members, yes. by -- Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 22 1 2 Q. -- family members taking the phone calls? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Okay. 5 Do you remember anything else that your family members told you -- 6 A. No. 7 Q. -- about those calls? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Which family members received these 10 calls, do you know? 11 A. My brother. 12 Q. What's his name? 13 A. Justo. 14 Q. Okay. 15 The one I just told you, Justo. And he was the one that then forwarded that information on to you? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. Other than that, what we just 18 discussed, no other communications about today's 19 deposition or this case? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Do you know a person by the name of 22 Jacques Rivera? 23 A. I don't know who that is. 24 Q. Okay. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. Has anyone other than the people 312.781.9586 Page 23 1 that we have discussed so far spoken to you at all 2 about today's deposition? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Why do you think you've been named as a 5 witness in this lawsuit? 6 A. I don't -- I mean, I don't know. Like 7 this been so long ago that I forgot about this, you 8 know. 9 something from the past. 10 And like I said, you know, like this is like, get involved with nothing, none of this. 11 12 I don't even want to, You know what I'm saying? Q. I understand, and -- you know. And 13 that's why we are going to try to get through this 14 as quickly as possible here for you. 15 But, again, I just ask you to answer 16 the questions truthfully to the best of your 17 knowledge today, okay? 18 Yes or no. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Thank you. 21 22 Have you ever been arrested by the Chicago Police Department ever, before today? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. Okay. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. How many times do you think 312.781.9586 Page 24 1 you've been arrested by the Chicago Police 2 Department? 3 4 A. I can't remember. I can't -- I can't recall. 5 Q. More than ten times? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. I don't know. 9 10 13 I can't tell you. I mean -- I mean, I've been arrested before in Chicago, yeah, you know. 11 12 More than twenty times? But if I sit here and count, I can't. Q. I'm not asking for a specific number. 14 I wouldn't expect that you'd be able to remember 15 something like that. 16 this way. 17 But, you know, let me ask it Do you know how old you were the 18 first time you got arrested by the Chicago Police 19 Department? 20 you can ballpark it? 21 22 A. Not exactly, if you don't know, but if Probably the first time was probably my teens sometime. 23 Q. Like 13 or -- 24 A. No, not like -- like -- probably like Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 25 1 2 3 16, somewhere around there. Q. Okay. member at the time? 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. Okay. 6 And were you a Latin King gang How old were you, again, when you joined the Latin Kings? 7 A. I was like 14. 8 Q. And did you go through any type of 9 initiation process to join the Latin Kings? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Were you a member of any subsect of the 12 Latin Kings, like -- you know, around like a 13 particular intersection? 14 I guess what I'm asking is what was 15 the territory that you particularly hung out in 16 when you were a Latin King? 17 18 19 A. I was there -- over there by -- by Damen and Division, in that area. Q. And that was like the sect of the Latin 20 Kings that you were a part of, the Damen and 21 Division sect of the Latin Kings? 22 A. I mean, that's the Wicker -- 23 MR. SWAMINATHAN: Objection to form. 24 Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 26 1 BY MR. GRILL: 2 Q. Go ahead. 3 A. That's the Wicker Park area. 4 just ... 5 Q. That's Were you ever -- how many people were 6 in your group of Latin Kings that you typically 7 hung around with, in 1995 specifically? 8 9 10 11 A. I can't -- I can't really tell you because some come and go. Q. So, you know, how ... How about in 1995, just in that year, if you can remember? 12 A. I can't remember that. 13 Q. Okay. 14 You knew a person named Alberto Rodriguez, correct? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. All right. 17 correct? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. And was he in the same group of Latin 20 Kings -- 21 A. No. 22 Q. -- that you typically hung around with? 23 A. No. 24 Q. What group was Alberto from? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. And he was a Latin King, 312.781.9586 Page 27 1 2 A. He was from the -- he used to live on Diversey, Damen and Diversey. 3 Q. 4 were, correct? 5 A. Yes, north. 6 Q. What about Nuni? 7 as well? 8 A. He was from the same place. 9 Q. As Alberto? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. In 1995, how long had you known Alberto 13 A. I probably knew him for about a year. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. Because I was talking to the girl over 12 16 17 Okay. So he was north of where you Was he a Latin King for? there, and I met them there. Q. Is that girl that you were talking to 18 in 1995 one of the women that had any of your 19 children? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Just a girl? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. All right. 24 Now, when did you meet Nuni relative to -- how long before Nuni's death had you Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 28 1 met him? 2 A. 3 Alberto; probably a year before that. 4 5 I met him around the same time I met Q. Do you know whether Alberto held any rank in 1995 in the Latin Kings? 6 A. No. I can't tell you. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. None either. 9 know of. 10 Q. I don't know. What about Nuni? I don't know -- that I Was there a leader of the Damen and 11 Division faction of the Latin Kings, where you were 12 from? 13 A. 14 That's where I used to hang from. But no, I don't know. 15 Q. No, you don't remember, or you don't -- 16 A. No, I don't remember who was -- who was 17 in there. 18 any -- or who was leader at the time. 19 20 Q. I couldn't remember who was holding It sounds like there was a leader of sorts; you just don't remember who that person was. 21 A. No, I don't remember who it was. 22 Q. So the first time you got arrested, you 23 24 said you were about 16 years old, correct? A. Yeah. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 29 1 Q. From the time you were 16 until the 2 time you moved out of Chicago and came to 3 Rockford -- or strike that question. 4 Between the time you were 16 and 5 first got arrested and moving to Rockford, had you 6 ever lived anywhere else other than Chicago? 7 A. No. 8 Q. So from the time you were 16 -- and, 9 you know, I'm presuming before that. But from the 10 time you were first arrested at 16, up until moving 11 to Rockford, that entire time period you lived in 12 Chicago, correct? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. During that time period that I just 15 referenced, were you ever arrested by a detective 16 named Reynaldo Guevara? 17 A. Arrested? I mean, like -- I can't -- 18 you know, like -- I mean, I -- I know he was from 19 14th District. 20 was a lot of them, you know. 21 As far as arrest -- I mean, there I don't know if, during any time I 22 was arrested, he was involved or anything, you 23 know. 24 know. I can't really tell you, because -- you Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 30 1 But, you know, I mean, like I told 2 you, I was -- I've been arrested before. I can't 3 sit there and tell you who arrested me. It's been 4 so long, you know? 5 So I can't remember all of that. 6 Q. Sure. Did you know -- in 1995, at the 7 time Nuni was killed, prior to that date, did you 8 know who Reynaldo Guevara was? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. He's the detective from 14th District 12 And who did you know him to be? at the time. 13 Q. Did you know what type of detective he 15 A. I mean, no. 16 Q. Did you know what he looked like at the 14 17 18 19 20 was? Detective. I mean ... time that Nuni died? A. Yes. He had curly hair. I know that much, but I don't -- he wore glasses. Q. All right. Now, what did you know -- 21 or what was Reynaldo's, or Detective Guevara's, 22 reputation? 23 Nuni's death? 24 A. What did you know about him prior to I don't know. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. I can't -- I can't 312.781.9586 Page 31 1 recall, man, you know. 2 3 Q. Okay. Did you know that Detective Guevara was a gang crimes detective? 4 A. I mean, gang crimes -- I don't know. 5 just saw him like a detective. 6 was -- you know, like difference between any 7 detective. 8 you know? I didn't know he I mean, detective -- to me, he's a cop, 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. As far as gangs, I don't know, you 11 know? 12 you know? 13 I don't know what -- what work he was doing, Q. I can't tell you. Prior to Nuni's death -- or I should 14 say between the ages of when you were 16 or so and 15 up until when Nuni died, do you remember any 16 specific encounters that you had with Detective 17 Guevara? 18 A. Again, I can't tell you. 19 you know, I can't -- I don't know. 20 remember. 21 22 23 24 I Q. Okay. I can't -I can't If Detective Guevara had -- or if -- let's strike that question. If you had had any encounters with Detective Guevara from the time you were 16 up Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 32 1 until when Nuni was shot that involved Detective 2 Guevara, for example, roughing you up in any way, 3 is that something that you think you would 4 remember? 5 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 6 THE WITNESS: 7 Q. Do you understand the question that I'm asking? 10 A. Yeah, I understand. 11 12 13 I can't -- I can't -- BY MR. GRILL: 8 9 No. Objection to form. But no, I can't remember any of that. Q. Okay. Did Detective Guevara -- or do 14 you have any recollection of Detective Guevara 15 asking you to be a witness at any point between the 16 ages of 16 and when Nuni was shot against any other 17 individuals, gang members or otherwise? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Okay. 20 No, you don't remember? Or no, that never happened? 21 A. I don't think I -- no. 22 Q. Okay. Did you ever testify ever in 23 your life against any -- other than Thomas 24 Sierra -- well, strike that question. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 33 1 You know who Thomas Sierra is, 2 correct? 3 A. Or the name -- you recognize the name? I mean, if that's the guy that was 4 involved in that -- in the incident at Kedzie and 5 Fullerton, then yeah, it must have been. 6 Q. Correct. So you remember, after Nuni 7 was shot, testifying in a criminal trial against -- 8 or not -- a criminal trial, a trial being against a 9 fellow by the name of Thomas Sierra, who was 10 accused of murdering Nuni? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. You remember testifying in that 13 criminal proceeding? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. Other than that criminal proceeding, 16 have you ever testified against any other person in 17 a criminal court? 18 A. No. 19 Q. So that's the only time you've ever 20 testified in a criminal trial? 21 A. That's all I remember. 22 Q. You are currently incarcerated in the 23 24 Boone County Jail for what offense at this time? A. A conspiracy case. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 34 1 Q. Conspiracy -- a drug conspiracy case? 2 A. Yes, drug conspiracy. 3 Q. Okay. 4 that case yet? 5 A. No, I haven't. 6 Q. Have you entered any plea, guilty or 7 And have you been sentenced in not guilty, in this case? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. A guilty plea. 11 Q. And -- but it's your testimony that you 12 have not been sentenced yet? 13 A. No, I haven't been sentenced yet. 14 Q. And for the record, what is the case 15 number that you are currently sitting on here at 16 the Boone County Jail? 17 MR. DUTCH: 18 THE WITNESS: 19 20 Right there. Docket No. 13 CR 50006. BY MR. GRILL: Q. Okay. Have you ever spent any time or 21 been incarcerated -- prior to being here at the 22 Boone County Jail, have you ever been incarcerated 23 in any other jail? 24 A. Yes, I went to -- I was -- in 2006, I Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 35 1 got convicted for I think a marijuana case. 2 Q. Okay. And was that in Illinois? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Cook County? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. And was it a felony or a misdemeanor? 7 A. Must have been a felony, because I went 8 to prison for it. 9 was -- and my first case in '92. 10 11 Q. So other than 2006 and 1992, are there any other times that you've been incarcerated? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Okay. 14 It was somebody's school, and it In 1992, what were you incarcerated for? 15 A. It was a armed robbery. 16 Q. And how long -- did you plead guilty, 17 or did you go to trial? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Okay. 20 21 And what was the sentence you received in that case? A. 22 five years. 23 together. 24 I ended up pleading guilty. Q. I got -- it was a sentence of six and It was eleven, but they ran them So they were concurrent sentences? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 36 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. And what other crimes were you 3 convicted of other than armed robbery, then, in 4 that case? 5 A. What do you mean? 6 Q. You got two sentences you said, right? 7 A. Yeah, aggravated battery, and it was 8 armed robbery. 9 Q. 10 They were both the same case. Okay. So one count of aggravated battery and one count of armed robbery? 11 A. Yeah, I guess. 12 Q. Did you have a co-defendant in that 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Who was that? 16 A. He passed away. 13 case? Alex Serrano, he 17 passed away. 18 Perez I think -- I believe it was, the other one. 19 20 Q. And Mike -- Mikey Perez; Michael So the first name -- the first person I believe you said, last name was Serrano? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. What was his -- I didn't understand 23 24 what you said his first name was. A. Alex. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 37 1 Q. Alex? 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. S-e-r-r-a-n-o? 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. And A-l-e-x? 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. Was Alex a Latin King? 8 A. Yeah, he was a Latin King. 9 Q. Did he have a nickname? 10 A. Just called him Alex. 11 Q. And then you said Mikey Perez? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. Did he have a nickname? 14 A. Mikey. 15 Q. Was he a Latin King also? 16 A. I believe he was. 17 Q. And you got a six-year sentence. 18 19 22 23 24 Just called him Mikey. How many -- how much actual time did you serve? 20 21 Alex Serrano. Or let me ask you this. Do you remember what year you were released? A. I think it was like the end of '95 sometime. Q. Okay. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. So you did maybe three -- two 312.781.9586 Page 38 1 and a half, three years actual time? 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. And were you -- what prison were you 4 sent to? 5 A. I went to Sheridan. 6 I went to Menard. 7 think it was. 8 9 10 11 Q. And from Sheridan I got released from Menard, I Do you remember how long -- the time period that you were at Sheridan, '92 to when? A. I think I stood there for some months only, and I ended up going to Menard from there. 12 Q. Do you remember when you got to Menard? 13 A. I don't know if it was like the end of 14 15 16 '92, or was it the beginning of '93. Q. And then you were there until you were released? 17 A. Yeah, till '95 sometime I got released. 18 Q. And so you were released essentially 19 just months before Nuni was shot, correct? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. All right. Did you have any cellmates 22 that you remember the names of while you were at 23 Menard? 24 A. I can't remember their names. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 39 1 Q. In 1992 for the ag bat and the armed 2 robbery, do you know whether Detective Guevara was 3 involved in that criminal investigation? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Do you recall the names of the 6 detectives that were involved? 7 A. No, I don't remember. 8 Q. Okay. 9 10 And although you entered a plea of guilty in that, did you ever provide any written confession or statement -- 11 A. No. 12 Q. -- that incriminated yourself in 13 that -- 14 A. No. 15 Q. -- as part of your plea? 16 A. No, I don't think so. 17 Q. All right. 18 So you just entered a plea of guilty in court -- 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. -- and then were sentenced? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. Okay. 23 24 Were you actually guilty of that crime? A. No. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 40 1 Q. Okay. Why not? 2 A. Because there's -- the guy said that -- 3 I mean, this guy said we robbed him for his jewelry 4 and wallet. 5 6 It wasn't for jewelry and wallet, you know? 7 8 Q. So you believe that the victim wasn't being honest? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. Did the police do -- as far as you are 11 aware, did you have any complaints about how the 12 police investigated that particular -- 13 A. I mean, I -- 14 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 15 THE WITNESS: 16 Objection to the form. I mean, I didn't say nothing. I mean, dude said we robbed him for 17 his wallet and his jewelry, and -- I mean, that's 18 what he said. 19 us up. They believed him, and they locked So -- you know? 20 21 22 23 24 I mean, what can I do? I mean ... BY MR. GRILL: Q. Did the police ever make you, or coerce you in any way to confess to the crime? A. No. I -- I pleaded guilty. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 41 1 2 I pleaded guilty. Q. Did you plead guilty to a State's 3 Attorney, or did you plead guilty just in court to 4 the judge? 5 A. I can't remember. 6 Q. Now, in 2006 you said you were also 7 sentenced for a marijuana charge of sorts, correct? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. Was that in Cook County as well? 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. And was that -- were you given a prison 12 sentence for that case? 13 A. Three years. 14 Q. In the Illinois Department of 15 Corrections? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. Were there any co-defendants in that 18 case that you -- 19 A. No. 20 Q. And so basically you were caught with 21 marijuana in that case? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Okay. 24 Was it a distribution charge? Or was it just a possession charge? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 42 1 2 3 4 5 A. I can't remember if they put it down as a delivery, or -- I can't remember. Q. Do you remember how much pot they had caught you with? A. I don't even think it was that much; 6 probably like an ounce. 7 been an ounce or a couple of bags. 8 9 10 11 12 If it was, it must have I can't remember. Q. Were you on any type of probation at the time when you were arrested for that? A. I don't think so. I don't know. I'm not sure. 13 Q. And what prison were you sent to? 14 A. To Vienna. 15 Q. And is that the only prison you spent 16 any time in -- 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. -- as a result of that? 19 20 Okay. Do you remember who your cellmates were at that time? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Were you still an active member of the 23 24 Latin Kings in 2006 when you were sentenced? A. I mean, like -- yeah, I was hanging in Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 43 1 the neighborhood, I mean, but -- I mean, that's the 2 only neighborhood I hang out in, you know what I'm 3 saying, when I'm in Chicago. 4 neighborhood. 5 6 7 So I was hanging in But as far as like doing anything? No, you know? Q. I was just hanging out, you know? When you -- is it still true, though, 8 or would it be accurate, to say that you left the 9 Latin Kings officially when you moved out of 10 Chicago and came to Rockford? 11 A. Yeah, like ... 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. I -- I mean, I -- even in Chicago, when 14 I was over there, I mean, I was living there, but I 15 wasn't, like, active, really active. 16 I'm saying? 17 you know? 18 19 Like I wasn't really doing nothing, I just -- I had kids. I'm saying? You know what You know what Trying to get jobs, you know? So ... 20 Q. Are you done with your answer? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. If you use -- and I've used this word 23 24 as well, so I just want to ask this, so we're clear. When you're -- when I'm asking you Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 44 1 if you've been active in the Latin Kings, and 2 you're also responding using that word "active," 3 what is your interpretation? 4 5 If you're an active member of the Latin Kings, what does that mean to you? 6 A. Active, like participating in what they 8 Q. And what is it that they do? 9 A. Whatever they -- I mean, whatever -- 7 do. 10 whatever -- whatever gangbangers do. 11 I'm saying? 12 know? 13 You know what That's what I consider active, you No, I'm not active no more. Q. And so would that involve -- would an 14 active member of the Latin Kings be involved in 15 committing crimes? 16 for example? 17 18 For example -- drug dealing, MR. SWAMINATHAN: Objection to form. BY MR. GRILL: 19 Q. If you know. 20 A. No. 21 That -- that -- I mean, they don't got to be in it, I mean. 22 I don't know how -- I don't know how 23 to answer this question for you. 24 saying? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 You know what I'm Page 45 1 So I -- I don't know what your 2 interpretation, active, is. 3 Like I'm not active no more. 4 5 Mine -- I don't know. That's all I want to say. You know what I'm saying? 6 Q. During any of the arrests that you've 7 ever had prior to coming to Rockford, and any 8 arrests specifically that the Chicago Police were 9 responsible for carrying out that involved you -- 10 and I'm not asking -- I'm not talking about whether 11 the arrest resulted in a conviction, but I'm 12 talking about an arrest. 13 put in you handcuffs, put you in a squad car. 14 Okay? 15 Okay? So they stop you, On any of those occasions, when you 16 think back, from the time you were 16 up until 17 today, do you have any recollection of the police 18 ever coercing you or putting any type of pressure 19 on you to get you to say something that you knew 20 was not true? 21 And specifically I'll say -- I'll 22 ask that question with this caveat: 23 anything that occurred with the investigation of 24 Nuni. So on any other occasion. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Not including Page 46 1 2 MR. SWAMINATHAN: Objection to form. BY MR. GRILL: 3 Q. Do you understand the question? 4 A. Yeah, I understand the question, and I 5 can't -- I can't recall none, you know? 6 I can't recall anything. 7 8 Q. Okay. Have any of your family members ever been arrested by the Chicago Police Department? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Okay. And was Reynaldo Guevara ever 11 one of the officers that you know of that arrested 12 any of your family members? 13 A. I can't remember. 14 Q. Prior to being incarcerated on any of 15 these occasions that we've described, including the 16 one that you're currently incarcerated for, have 17 you ever been employed? 18 19 20 21 22 A. I worked ... Q. How old were you when you got your first job? A. 23 24 Yeah, I worked in a couple of places. I can't remember that. I can't remember all that. Q. What was the last place you remember Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 47 1 working at, then? 2 A. In Rockford, in a steel company. 3 Q. What was the name of it? 4 A. But this -- I don't remember the name. 5 This was through a temp agency. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. And, you know, and I do like -- I do a 8 little lawn work here, a little mechanic here and 9 there, you know? 10 11 12 13 Q. Do you remember the name of the temp agency? A. It was Corporate, I believe. it was Corporate. I believe That's the name of it. 14 Q. Corporate? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. And they were located here in Rockford? 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. What's the last job you remember having 19 20 in Chicago? A. I was working on -- I was working in 21 Schaumburg, doing countertops. 22 on Grand and California; I was working for a movers 23 company there. 24 And I was working Those are basically the ones I could Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 48 1 2 3 remember. Q. Do you remember the name of the countertopping company? 4 A. No. 5 Q. What about the other place you said? 6 A. It's on Grand and California. 7 remember the name of that place, either. 8 Q. And they did what? 9 A. The moving company. 10 Q. Okay. 11 12 13 You did what? How long were you working at the countertop place for? A. I think I worked there for maybe less than a year. 14 Q. Do you remember what year? 15 A. No, I don't remember. 16 17 I can't remember the year. Q. 18 19 What about the moving company? How long did you work there for? A. I worked there for a little while, too; 20 maybe up to a year. 21 remember. 22 23 24 I don't Q. I'm not sure. Do you remember what year you were working for the moving company? A. I can't No, I can't. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 49 1 2 Q. Do you remember having any other jobs in Chicago other than these two? 3 4 Okay. A. remember. 5 Q. No. I don't recall. No, I can't It's been a while. Would it be fair to characterize you, 6 you know, as being unemployed for most of the time 7 that you were living in Chicago? 8 A. I mean, I ... 9 Q. I'm talking about holding a job that 10 gives you a paycheck, you know. 11 12 A. paychecks. 13 14 Yeah. I mean, I had jobs where I get But, you know, I can't remember. Like -- you know, most of the time I -- I didn't really work. 15 Q. I -- but I had my jobs. And so when you worked, most of the 16 time was it like odd jobs, where you'd do -- you'd, 17 you know, work for a day here, work for a day 18 there? 19 20 21 Was it that type of a situation most of the time for you? A. I mean, I worked wherever there's -- 22 wherever there's work, I will work, you know? 23 So -- I can't -- I can't -- I can't remember all 24 this stuff, man. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. You know? 312.781.9586 Page 50 1 Q. And I should tell you this up front. 2 If you can't remember something, 3 that's totally fine. 4 say "I don't remember." 5 Okay? You're totally free to Okay? And I completely understand that 6 it's been a lot of time that's gone by, and my 7 questions that I'm asking you span so far from the 8 time you were 16 up until today. 9 And how old are you today? 10 A. 45. 11 Q. Okay. 12 So we're talking a good number of -- a couple of decades. All right? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. So the point of that is that I don't 15 want to you guess about stuff. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Thanks. 18 19 Okay? Yes or no. So if there is something that you don't know or can't remember, say "I don't know." 20 If you still want to answer the 21 question, you can do that. 22 qualify it, as I believe it was this, because a lot 23 of time has gone by. 24 A. But you're welcome to Okay? Yeah. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 51 1 Q. All right. 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. Okay. 4 Typically, then, while you were living in Chicago, what did you do for money? 7 8 I mean, how did you get -- how did you get by, typically, financially? 9 10 A. I mean, my girl was working at the time, so -- you know? 11 12 So, last question on that employment stuff. 5 6 Follow me? Q. And what time period are you talking about? 13 A. Well, the last -- the last -- like in 14 the 2000's, I was staying with my girl Michele 15 Perez, and she was working at the time, you know? 16 I'm talking about before I got 17 locked up in 2006, she was working. So -- and I 18 was looking for a job, but I couldn't find nothing 19 at that time. 20 Q. 21 correct? 22 A. Yeah, she lives in Chicago. 23 Q. Do you know how to get ahold of her 24 And Michele lives in Chicago right now, today? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 52 1 A. No. 2 Q. Do you know what part of Chicago she 3 lives in? 4 5 A. She staying in part of Franklin Park somewhere. 6 Q. Do you know her birthdate? 7 A. Excuse me? 8 Q. Do you know her birthdate, her 9 birthday? 10 A. No. 11 Q. You don't know her phone number? 12 A. No. 13 14 I don't keep in contact with her. I don't keep in contact with her lately. 15 Q. Do you know where she works now? 16 A. No, I don't. 17 Q. Where did she work back in 2000, or in 18 the 2000's, as you were saying? 19 20 A. All I know she was working. 22 24 I don't remember where she was working. 21 23 I can't -- I can't remember. Q. So basically Michele was supporting you -A. Yeah. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 53 1 Q. 2 in 2006? 3 A. 4 5 -- from 2000 up until you went to jail Yeah. that, yeah. Q. What about before 2000? 6 7 You could say something like What were you doing for money then? A. Like I said, I mean, I don't remember 8 what years I was working. 9 working myself, and I don't remember, you know? 10 Q. All right. I could have been Leaving the gang stuff that 11 we were describing, or talking about earlier, and 12 coming to Rockford -- was that part of the reason 13 you moved to Rockford and left Chicago, was to get 14 away from the gang stuff? 15 16 17 Or was there any other reason you came to Rockford? A. Yeah, I was trying to get away from 18 everything. 19 I was trying to leave the area. 20 Q. I mean -- yeah, I was trying to leave. Okay. Was there anything that you were 21 particularly concerned about that caused you to 22 move from Chicago to Rockford to get away from the 23 Latin Kings? 24 A. Yeah. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. Like -- I mean, I had a little 312.781.9586 Page 54 1 catching -- I was -- I started doing heroin. 2 So I moved out of Chicago so I could 3 stop that, you know. 4 getting out of Chicago, but -- you know? 5 6 Q. That was my main thing of When did you start -- how old were you when you started using heroin? 7 A. I can't remember. 8 Q. Were you a teenager? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Were you older than -- were you in your 11 twenties? 12 Let me ask it this way. 13 How many years did you use heroin for, if you can remember? 14 A. It could be anywhere from -- it could 15 have been anywhere from ten to fifteen years 16 already. 17 18 So I probably was in my thirties when I started using, somewhere around there. 19 Q. When is the last time you used heroin? 20 A. It was like before I caught this case 21 right here. 22 Q. Okay. And the case that you're talking 23 about is the case that you currently incarcerated 24 on? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 55 1 2 3 A. Yeah. Before -- yeah. Before 2012, or ... Q. Were you using heroin at the time you 4 were convicted and arrested -- arrested and 5 convicted for the 2006 pot case? 6 A. I could have been. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. No. 9 Q. -- when you committed the ag battery 10 Were you using heroin in 1992 -- and the armed robbery? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Have you ever gone to rehab or anything 13 like that? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. Just one time? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. And when did you go to rehab? 18 A. It had to be like 2012 sometime. 19 Q. Was it part of anything to do with what 20 21 22 In Rockford. the court ordered as part of this case, or -A. No. I was already looking to go into that, you know? 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. But the judge kind of told me, like, to Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 56 1 get some help, you know? 2 rehab anyway. 3 Q. So I ended up going to So at one point you appeared in front 4 of a judge on this case you are currently 5 incarcerated on? 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 A. No, not this case. Q. Okay. It was another case. Which case was it that you appeared in front of a judge and the judge recommended that you go to rehab? A. It's a probation case I got for -- I got caught with a couple of grams of heroin. Q. All right. And that was a probation case here in -- from Rockford? 15 Or was it from Chicago? 16 A. From Rockford. 17 Q. Have you ever been arrested -- or let 18 me ask it this way. 19 Since moving to Rockford, how many 20 times have you been arrested by -- in Rockford, or 21 around this area? 22 23 24 A. Once, and for this, that I could remember of. Q. So it's the heroin case that you got Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 57 1 probation for? 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. And then this current case that you're 4 incarcerated for? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. And so as part of your probation, you 7 were ordered to go to rehab? 8 9 A. No. I was going -- I was going to rehab my -- 10 Q. Anyway? 11 A. -- on my own anyway. 12 Q. Do you remember the name of the 13 facility that you went to rehab for? 14 A. It was on Green Street. 15 Q. Okay. Was it like Rosecrance, or was 16 it -- what was it? Do you remember -- you don't 17 remember the name of it? 18 A. Remedy, I think it was. 19 Q. All right. 21 A. Not long. 22 Q. Did you leave on your own, or did they 20 23 24 How long were you there for? kick you out? A. No, I didn't get kicked out. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 58 1 2 I left on my own. Q. Were there any repercussions with the 3 case that you were on probation for, for leaving 4 the program? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Have you ever filed a lawsuit in your 7 life against anybody? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Okay. 10 And you understand -- or strike that question. 11 You testified earlier that you 12 remember testifying in the criminal case that was 13 against Thomas Sierra, correct? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. Thomas Sierra was the person that was 16 accused of murdering Nuni. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. 19 that, correct? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. And you remember at the beginning of -- So you do remember testifying in 22 or prior to testifying, that you took an oath to 23 tell the truth, correct? 24 A. Yeah. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 59 1 Q. And you understand that that oath 2 compels you to tell the truth then, during that 3 criminal hearing, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you remember taking the same oath 6 today at the beginning of this deposition, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And you understand that that oath also 9 today compels you to tell the truth to the 10 questions that I'm asking you or that anybody else 11 asks you, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And you understand that lying during 14 this proceeding today would subject you to the same 15 sanctions as if you had lied in court during that 16 criminal proceeding, correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. SWAMINATHAN: Objection. I'll just note 19 he has counsel here today who can also advise him 20 on these issues. 21 BY MR. GRILL: 22 Q. Do you wear glasses at all? 23 A. Reading glasses. 24 Q. And when did you start wearing reading Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Just reading glasses. Page 60 1 glasses? 2 A. 3 4 5 Recently. Well, I had them in the -- I got them in Sheridan. Q. Did you wear glasses in 1995 when Nuni was shot? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Prior to 1995 -- strike that question. 8 9 10 Prior to Nuni being shot, did you know who Thomas Sierra was? Had you ever heard that name? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did you know a person or ever hear of a 13 person by the name of Hector Montinez? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Do you recognize that name today, 16 after -- 17 A. No. 18 Q. Or Little Hector? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you know that he was the other 21 person charged, along with Thomas Sierra, for being 22 involved with Nuni's shooting? 23 24 A. No. I thought that Thomas was the only one charged with that case. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 61 1 Q. All right. So now I want to talk 2 specifically about what it is that you remember 3 today about the shooting that happened on May 23rd, 4 1995. Okay? 5 So -- you understand that? Yes or no. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. So, for the time being, the questions 8 I'm going to ask you, I'm going to do my best to 9 confine them to that time period. 10 All right? So you had already testified that 11 you remember being involved in a drive-by shooting 12 on May 23rd, 1995, correct? 13 A. That I was involved? 14 Q. That you were present for it. 15 A. Yeah, I was present. 16 Q. And would you agree that this shooting 17 occurred pretty much at the monument at Logan and 18 Kedzie, so roughly around 2600 North Kedzie, 19 correct? 20 A. Yes, it was by the monument. 21 Q. Okay. And would you agree that this 22 shooting occurred roughly around 10:00 or 10:30 23 p.m. on that day? 24 A. I can't -- I don't know what time it Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 62 1 was. 2 Q. It was dark out? 3 A. I can't recall. 4 Q. If the police reports document that the 5 shooting occurred roughly at that time, would you 6 have any reason to dispute that? 7 A. Like I say, I don't remember the time -- 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. -- so I can't tell what time it was. 10 Q. But just listen to the question I'm 11 asking. I understand that you don't recall, and 12 that's fine. 13 But if the police reports document 14 it as having happened about that time, 10:00, 15 10:30 p.m., on that day, would you have any reason 16 to dispute that? 17 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 18 THE WITNESS: Objection to form. I don't know what to tell you. 19 I mean, I don't know. 20 in the evening somewhere. 21 can't tell you what time it happened. 22 BY MR. GRILL: 23 24 Q. I mean, it could have been But as far as time, I Well, do you remember if the sun was up, if it was light out when the shooting happened? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 63 1 A. As far the sun, as far as the sun up, I 2 don't know. 3 was -- if I was to guess -- do you want me to 4 guess? 5 you know? 6 sometime, you know. It wasn't light and it wasn't real dark, 7 8 9 As far as the sun, I don't think it It could have been in the evening I don't know what time it was. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Q. All right. So you remember being the 10 driver on that day, correct, when the shooting 11 occurred? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Who was in the car with you, if you 14 remember? 15 A. 16 the car. 17 Q. 18 Alberto was in the car, and Nuni was in And so you're driving. Where is Alberto sitting? 19 A. He's sitting in the passenger side. 20 Q. Front seat? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. And then where is Nuni? 23 A. Sitting behind me. 24 Q. Okay. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. And Nuni is also -- I'm sorry; I 312.781.9586 Page 64 1 should have said this before. 2 3 4 It's Noel Andujar, correct, his real name? A. Yeah, Noel. 5 6 7 8 If that's the name, I don't remember. Q. I knew Noel is his first name. And so you remember his first name being Noel? 9 A. Yeah, I guess his name ... 10 Q. N-o-e-l? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. And Andujar, A-n-d-u-j-a-r. 13 14 What type of car were you driving that day? 15 A. I think it was a -- a Cutlass. 16 Q. Do you remember what color it was? 17 A. Oh, blue. 18 Q. Okay. And prior to the shooting, 19 presumably you left your house at some point in the 20 car, correct? 21 Where were you coming from? 22 Well, strike that question. 23 When you first started driving 24 around that night, were you alone or did you have Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 65 1 either Alberto or Nuni in the car, or did you go 2 pick them up? 3 4 I drove to Diversey, and we went for a Q. So you went somewhere to pick up either ride. 5 6 A. Nuni or Alberto? 7 A. Yeah. I went to Diversey. 8 Q. Okay. Who did you pick up first? 9 A. Both of them. 10 They were right there. Both of them were. 11 Q. And would that be the Lathrop Homes? 12 A. Yeah, Lathrop. 13 Q. And so you picked up Nuni and Alberto 14 at the Lathrop Homes prior to the shooting on 15 May 23rd, 1995, correct? 16 A. Yeah, that's where I picked them. 17 Q. And after you picked them up, where did 18 you start driving to? 19 20 21 22 23 24 A. We were going to drive towards Humboldt Q. Do you remember the route that you took Park. to get there? A. I always take Kedzie down to Logan -- I don't know if it's Logan Boulevard. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 66 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. -- to -- you go around this little turn 3 over down Western and Diversey, so -- not -- on 4 Western, under the viaduct, to Diversey, and 5 Diversey right there to Lathrop. 6 Q. So what was going on at Humboldt Park? 7 Were you actually going to the 8 actual park, Humboldt Park, or were you going to 9 the area of Humboldt Park? 10 A. We were just going to the area. 11 Q. Do you remember if you were going over 12 there for any specific reason? 13 A. No. 14 Q. So as you guys were driving around, if 15 I'm remembering correctly, you, Alberto, and Nuni 16 were smoking marijuana in the car, correct? 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. Yes? 19 A. Yeah, we were smoking. 20 Q. And how much marijuana did you guys 21 22 23 24 smoke in the car? A. I don't know. I can't tell you how much we smoked. Q. Were you guys smoking in joints or -- Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 67 1 A. I don't remember. 2 Q. All right. Do you remember whether or 3 not your -- how impaired, if at all, you were from 4 smoking marijuana prior to the shooting? 5 A. Impaired? 6 Q. Could you still drive? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. Did you feel like you could still 9 I -- I can't recall. Or -- drive? 10 A. Yeah, I could drive. 11 Q. So did you feel like you were still 12 pretty aware of your surroundings, regardless of 13 the fact that you had smoked marijuana in the car? 14 15 16 17 A. I mean, I try to be. I mean, I don't want to cause no accident. Q. So at some point you were proceeding westbound down Logan Boulevard, correct? 18 A. Down Logan, yeah. 19 Q. And you're coming up to the monument, 20 correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And around this monument, essentially, 23 the -- from Logan, it kind of goes all -- it's like 24 a roundabout, right? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 68 1 2 You can drive all the way around in a circle around the monument? 3 4 5 6 A. You could. Yeah, you could. Yeah, you could. Q. And there's other streets that come in north-south; for example, Kedzie Boulevard -- 7 A. Kedzie, yeah. 8 Q. -- is right there, correct? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. And if you're to proceed, you know, 11 from Logan around the monument, and you wanted to 12 keep going eastbound, you would end up on which 13 street? Wrightwood, correct? 14 A. Going eastbound? 15 Q. Or excuse me. Westbound. 16 A. I don't know. I mean, if you going 17 around the monument, yeah, there's Wrightwood to go 18 west, and then you got Kedzie going south. 19 I mean, there's some other little 20 streets you could turn into in there, so I can't -- 21 I don't remember all these streets, but ... 22 23 24 Q. And if you -- I'm sorry; you done with your answer? A. Yeah, yeah. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 69 1 2 Q. I'm just trying to set the geographical area in here. 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. And so if you were to go around the 5 monument and continue westbound on Wrightwood, 6 eventually you would hit Kimball, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And which way north or south is 9 Armitage from -- from Logan Boulevard? 10 A. I think Armitage is south. 11 Q. All right. Now, as you come up to the 12 monument heading westbound on Logan, is there a 13 stoplight at the -- you know, right before you hit 14 the monument on Logan Boulevard heading west? 15 A. Could you say that question again? 16 Q. As you're heading westbound on Logan, 17 in 1995, driving down Logan westbound, and you come 18 up to the monument, is there a stop sign at that -- 19 right before you hit the monument? 20 21 22 A. There is stop sign, because you got to let the other cars pass. Q. And do you remember what lane of 23 traffic you were driving in as you came up to that 24 stop sign by the stoplight? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 70 1 2 A. I mean, I believe I was on the right Q. And how many lanes on Logan Boulevard side. 3 4 are heading west at that location, at that 5 intersection with the stoplight? 6 7 A. each side. 8 9 There is two -- there should be two on Q. Okay. So two going westbound and two going eastbound, correct? 10 A. Should be. 11 Q. And you're in -- and Logan Boulevard 12 actually has other streets along the curbs, correct? 13 14 A. I don't know what you mean by that. 15 16 I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of streets over there on Logan -- 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. -- coming in north and south, east and 19 west. 20 by the monument. 21 22 I mean, there's a lot of streets right there Q. Okay. So as you're coming up to the stoplight on -- do you actually stop at the light? 23 A. It was -- it's a stop sign right there. 24 Q. Okay. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. So you make a stop? 312.781.9586 Page 71 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. All right. And did you notice any 3 other vehicles around you once you got up to that 4 stop sign? 5 A. I mean, when I was coming -- when I was 6 in the stop sign, no, I didn't notice nothing at 7 that time. 8 9 10 Q. Okay. At some point did you see another vehicle around you that ultimately was the vehicle that opened up fire on your car? 11 A. Yeah, I seen a little black car. 12 Q. Okay. 13 vehicle? 14 A. Where did you first see that I mean, I seen him right there by the 15 stop sign. When I was -- when I was coming to the 16 stop sign, he was in front of me, and I stopped. 17 And I just noted he slowed down 18 after a minute, you know, he probably seen my car 19 and he slowed down, and -- you know. 20 noted the car. 21 Q. 22 23 24 That's when I So what lane is this car in when you first see it, this black car, as you described it? A. If I was -- if it was -- if I was going west, I was on the right-hand, he was on the other Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 72 1 lane, which would be my left lane. 2 going the same way. But we was both 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. But he was already in front of me, so 5 he already had passed the stop sign. 6 Q. So if I have it right, as you're coming 7 up to the stop sign, this other vehicle is slightly 8 in front of you in the left lane. 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Is that right? 11 A. Yeah, he was in front of me. 12 Q. So you went -- you stopped at the stop 13 sign, started going around the moment. 14 What happened next? 15 16 A. monument, dude -- the car slowed down. 17 18 When I started going around the Q. Did you come up next to the car that slowed down? 19 A. Yeah, kind of -- I was next to the car. 20 I seen him -- I was next to the car, like you could 21 say. 22 Q. And you're driving, right? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. Okay. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. So how many feet to your left 312.781.9586 Page 73 1 was this vehicle? Less than six feet maybe? 2 A. More or less. 3 Q. He's in the lane right to your left, 4 right? 5 A. Right -- if I'm right here, he's right 6 there, like in a little angle right there in front 7 of me. 8 9 Q. And so, just for the record, you are gesturing with your left hand, pointing to one of 10 the other attorneys here, to represent the distance 11 between yourself and the other vehicle at that 12 time, correct? 13 A. 14 More or less, yeah. More or less around here. 15 Q. And we're in a small room at this 16 point. You would agree that that distance was 17 about six feet that you just referenced? 18 A. Could be. 19 Q. Could it be less? 20 A. Could be. 21 Q. What other characteristics did you 22 notice about this car, other than the color that 23 you described? 24 A. No, just -- they had tints. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 They had Page 74 1 2 some tint on it. Q. 3 Tints being what? 4 I know what they are, but can you describe it for the record? 5 A. Tinted windows. 6 Q. All right. 7 tint, light tint, multicolored tint? 8 9 And was the tint a dark What kind of tint was it? A. I mean, I can't -- there were tints on 10 the car, you know? 11 not real dark tints, not dark dark tints. 12 Q. And -- there were tints, but 13 Are there -- I'm sorry. Were you done with your answer? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. Were the windows -- how many doors were 16 on this car? 17 A. Four. 18 Q. And were the windows up or down when 19 It was a four-door car. you first noticed it? 20 A. They were up. 21 Q. And was the roundabout at the Logan 22 Square monument that you were going around at this 23 point -- were there street lights on? 24 A. I can't recall if there were street Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 75 1 lights on at the time, or what. 2 3 Q. Do you feel like you could see pretty well, like the area was well lit, regardless? 4 A. I mean, I seen -- I seen -- I mean, if 5 you're standing right there, I mean, I could see -- 6 yeah. 7 It's close. I could see. 8 9 I could see -- I seen the color of the car, you know? 10 11 You know what I'm saying? Q. And you could tell that the tints were pretty light on the windows? 12 A. I didn't say they were pretty light. 13 didn't say -- I didn't say they were pretty dark, 14 either, so they -- you know? 15 know? 16 Q. Okay. I They had tints, you Were the tints light enough for 17 you to determine how many occupants were in the 18 vehicle next to you? 19 A. More or less, yeah. 20 Q. And how many people did you see in the 22 A. I believe three people were in the car. 23 Q. Do you remember where those people were 21 24 car? situated within the car? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 76 1 2 Obviously somebody is driving. Where were the other two people? 3 A. Well, you got the driver, your 4 passenger, and you had -- somebody was in the back 5 seat. 6 7 Q. So kind of like a similar arrangement to how people were situated in your car? 8 A. Could have been. 9 Q. Okay. 10 What kind of wheels did this vehicle have? 11 A. He had some rims on there, on -- I 12 mean, as far as what kind of rims, I can't tell 13 you. 14 Q. All right. Were they -- they weren't 15 the types of rims that you would expect a 16 manufacturer to put on? 17 They were like kind of flashy rims? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. All right. 20 21 previously described them as spoke-type rims. Would that be correct? 22 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 23 THE WITNESS: 24 Were they -- you had Objection to form. Back then we used to -- spokes -- it could have been 30 -- 30 -- Cragar 30 Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 77 1 spokes. Everybody was using them back in the time. 2 3 So it probably could have been. BY MR. GRILL: 4 5 Q. Had you ever seen this vehicle before this night? 6 A. No. 7 Q. And do you remember what type of 8 vehicle it was, like model, make? 9 A. It was a Buick. 10 Q. All right. 11 A. Yeah. It was a Buick. 12 Q. Okay. Do you remember what type of 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Are you sure? Buick? A. It was a short body, that we call the small ones. Q. You don't remember what type, or what model Buick it was? A. Could have been a LeSabre; it could have been a Park Avenue. Q. They look the same. Now, you described the car as black. Are you sure that it was like black, 22 or was it like a dark blue and it looked black? 23 Do you know specifically exactly 24 what color the car was? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 78 1 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 2 THE WITNESS: I mean, it was dark. 3 guess, it was black. 4 BY MR. GRILL: 5 6 Q. Objection to form. Could it have also been like a dark navy blue? 7 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 8 THE WITNESS: 9 them it was a black car. 10 11 12 13 16 Objection to form. I don't know. I mean, I told That's what I told them. BY MR. GRILL: Q. And when you say you told "them," who are you referring to? A. 14 15 To me, my The detective. To me, it was a black car. Q. Okay. So let's go back to the point when you're driving around the monument. 17 This car is immediately to your 18 left, and it's slowed down. 19 lane, or immediately to the right of this car, 20 correct? 21 A. 22 23 24 You are in the right Is that right? Yeah, I was -- we were turning. I was on the side. Q. Okay. So you and this other car are going around the monument together, correct? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 79 1 A. Yeah. Because he's -- like I said, he 2 slowed down when I came to the stop sign, like more 3 or less like whoever it was was kind of waiting for 4 us to come alongside. 5 6 Q. Why did you think that the car was waiting for you guys to come alongside? 7 8 So ... A. I don't know. I mean, because he slowed down. 9 (Brief interruption.) 10 (The record was read.) 11 MR. GRILL: 12 there. 13 BY MR. GRILL: 14 Q. Okay. And we'll pick up right But before we go on, I just wanted to 15 note for the record that a sheriff's deputy just 16 walked in, handed you a glass of water, and some 17 pills. 18 Medication, correct? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. Is that the same medication that you 21 just took right now, that you previously described 22 as being the pain medication? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. And if at any point you start feeling Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 80 1 the effects of this medication and it's causing you 2 any difficulty understanding my questions or being 3 able to think clearly about what it is that we're 4 discussing, I would ask that you please let me 5 know. Okay? 6 A. Uh-huh. 7 Q. And if you don't say anything, I'm 8 going to presume that you're fine to proceed and 9 you're answering my questions truthfully and 10 honestly, and the medication is not interfering 11 with you? Okay? 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. All right. So the last question, 14 again, was what was it about this vehicle that made 15 you think that the vehicle wanted you to come up 16 alongside it? 17 A. Because it slowed down. 18 Q. And you eventually did pull up 19 alongside it, correct? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. And when you pulled up alongside it, 22 did you look over to the vehicle that was -- 23 A. Yeah, I looked -- yeah. 24 Q. And what did you see? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 81 1 2 A. Well, I mean, I looked in the vehicle, and I could see the driver was doing something. 3 Q. And what did you see -- let's just 4 stick with that. 5 doing? 6 What did you see the driver Just describe it. A. He was messing with his door panel 7 some, best of what I could see. 8 able to see, like. 9 That's what I was And as we're going, you know, I just 10 had a bad feeling about what was going on. 11 when dude opened the door, I think he was going 12 to -- like he was trying pull something out. 13 14 He opened the door with his leg, and I threw my car at it, because I had a bad feeling. 15 So he closed the door, and I tried 16 to -- I tried to -- I tried to go toward -- 17 actually I went toward Wrightwood. 18 19 And And after that all I heard was a bunch of gunshots. 20 Q. So I presume that the -- well, strike 21 that question. 22 When you observed the driver moving 23 around as you just described him, were the windows 24 on the passenger side of that vehicle to your left, Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 82 1 were they up or done? 2 A. They were -- all the windows were up. 3 Q. Okay. So the tint was not dark 4 enough -- or it was light enough, I guess, so you 5 could actually see -- 6 A. Some -- 7 Q. -- to some degree what the person, the 8 driver -- 9 10 11 A. Something -- something was going on, yeah. MR. SWAMINATHAN: 12 13 14 Objection to form. Go ahead, sir. I'm sorry. Go ahead, sir. THE WITNESS: Something -- you know, some- -- 15 something was going on, like some type of movement 16 in the car, you know. 17 BY MR. GRILL: 18 Q. Okay. And did you see any of the other 19 occupants of the vehicle moving at the same time 20 that you observed the driver doing something with 21 his door? 22 A. Not really. 23 Q. Did any of these individuals in the 24 I can't. vehicle to your left make any gestures towards your Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 83 1 vehicle prior to you observing the driver reaching 2 or messing around with something in his door? 3 A. I don't know if dude was -- I don't 4 remember if he was throwing out some gang signs at 5 me at the time, you know. 6 it happened, you know. 7 Q. Okay. But I can't recall when Do you believe at some point 8 somebody threw -- some occupant or occupants of 9 that other car flashed gang signs at your vehicle? 10 11 A. signs at us. 12 13 Yeah, they were trying to flash gang Q. Do you remember which occupant of that vehicle was flashing gang signs? 14 A. I believe it was the passenger in the 16 Q. The front seat passenger? 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. And this person would have been 15 19 car. immediately to your left, correct? 20 A. Yeah, to my left. 21 Q. Because you're in the driver's seat and 22 he's in the passenger seat and to your left, right? 23 24 Yes? A. Yes. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 84 1 Q. And that person is within 6 feet of 2 you, reasonably, when they're flashing the gang 3 signs? 4 A. More or less. 5 Q. All right. 6 7 8 Now, do you remember what types of gang signs were being flashed at you? A. Cobras. I don't believe he was throwing no He was doing something like this, so ... 9 Q. Okay. And you just gestured with your 10 hands -- 11 A. Right. 12 Q. -- making like a "C" with your hand, 13 correct? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. And if that person was indeed making a 16 "C" with their hand, like you just demonstrated, 17 would that be a gang sign for the Spanish Cobras? 18 A. Yeah, it would have been. 19 Q. Okay. 20 21 Would that be -- are the Spanish Cobras -- what nation are the Spanish Cobras in? A. I mean, there's -- there's -- you know, 22 if you was to divide all this stuff, it would be 23 people and folks. 24 Q. And I'm talking about 1995, not today. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 85 1 2 So in 1995 were the Spanish Cobras people, or were they folks? 3 4 A. They've always been folks, yeah. 5 6 They were folks. Q. And the Latin Kings were people or folks? 7 A. Were people. 8 Q. And so the Spanish Cobras, the Latin 9 Kings, because one is people, one is folk, 10 typically, because of that, you are not allied with 11 each other, correct? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. And that would have been the case in 14 1995 at this time that we're discussing, correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Melendez, do you 17 recall them flashing any other gang signs, 18 potentially, at your vehicle? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did you ever see them flash any gang 21 signs that would be disrespectful -- or that you 22 would interpret, as a Latin King at that time, as 23 being disrespectful toward the Latin Kings? 24 A. I mean, I don't know if he threw down a Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 86 1 crown at me or something. 2 I can't remember. Honestly I can't remember. 3 Q. Is it possible that they did? 4 A. It's possible that he could did it. 5 Q. Would throwing up a Spanish Cobra 6 sign like you described, making that "C," would 7 that be a sign of disrespect towards the Latin 8 Kings? 9 10 A. I mean, at the time they are -- they were our opposition, you know. 11 Q. Was the area around the monument that 12 you were driving around right before the 13 shooting -- what gang, if you knew at that time, 14 was known to operate or control that area? 15 A. I mean, that's kind of basically all 16 mixed up around there. 17 Lovers around there. 18 there. 19 20 21 22 There was O.A.'s, you got I mean, you got Cobras around So, you know, anybody -- you could run into anybody around there. Q. When you say O.A., that's Orchestra Albany? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. Were the Latin Kings in control of that Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 87 1 area at all, or was it -- 2 A. No. 3 Q. Okay. 4 So that was not Latin King area -- 5 A. No. 6 Q. -- or Latin King area around the 7 8 9 monument where you're driving? A. No. You have to go through there to get to a lot of places. 10 Q. Sure. 11 A. I mean, just like they got to drive 12 through our neighborhood to get to anywhere else. 13 Everybody got to go -- at that time, 14 everybody got to pass somewhere through somebody 15 else neighborhood to get somewhere else, so ... 16 17 18 19 20 Q. Like you're driving on a main boulevard; you go through a lot of neighborhoods. A. Yeah, you could ride through, and you could run through anybody's neighborhood, you know. Q. All right. So you see the driver 21 making some gestures, or reaching towards his door, 22 correct? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. And after you observed that, do you say Yes? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. The driver, yeah. 312.781.9586 Page 88 1 anything, or does anybody else in your vehicle say 2 anything at that point? 3 4 A. No. Is there any discussion? I just -- I just tell the guys to watch out, something funny, you know, like ... 5 Q. You said this to Alberto and Nuni? 6 A. Yeah. Yeah. I told them, just like be 7 careful because, you know, something's happening in 8 the car, like more or less I was letting them know. 9 10 Q. or strike the question. 11 12 Now, did -- what was the next thing -- Did Alberto or Nuni say anything back, if you remember -- 13 A. No, they didn't -- 14 Q. -- when you told everybody to watch out? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. So what happened -- or strike that 17 No, they didn't say nothing. question. 18 Did you see -- at the time that you 19 saw the driver reaching for his door, did you see 20 the front seat passenger? 21 22 23 24 Or do you remember seeing the front seat passenger making any movements himself? A. I don't know -- you know, at that time, I don't remember if dude handed the other guy Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 89 1 something, because at that point, that's when he 2 opened the door, you know. 3 4 5 6 And I kind of threw my car at him, and I turned west to go towards Wrightwood. Q. And so when you say the dude opened the door, you are referring to the front seat passenger? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. And could you make out the ethnicity of 9 the occupants of the vehicle to your left? 10 A. What do you mean by that? 11 Q. Were they white guys, Mexican guys, 12 black guys, Chinese guys? What were they? 13 A. Latinos. 14 Q. All three of them? 15 A. I don't know if the guy in the back was 16 an Afro American. I believe he was Afro American, 17 the guy in the back, and the two Latinos. 18 Q. 19 Latinos? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. All right. 22 A. I -- I can't -- I don't know. 23 Q. And what is it about the guy in the 24 So the two guys in the front were How old did they look to be? back seat that made you think that he was African- Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 90 1 American? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Okay. 4 Just looked dark to me. So then you see the front passenger side door open up, correct? 5 Yes? 6 A. Yes, the front passenger. 7 Q. And did you see that person in the 8 front passenger seat in the car to your left stick 9 anything out the door at that point? 10 11 12 Or did you just see the door open? A. I seen the door open, and that's when I seen something in his hands. 13 So I -- you know. And that's when I threw the -- the 14 car at him so he could shut the door. 15 the door, that's when I went west on Wrightwood. 16 17 Q. Once he shut So you actually saw something in his hand when he opened the door the first time? 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 20 answered. 21 BY MR. GRILL: Objection. Asked and 22 Q. Yes? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What did you see in his hand? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 91 1 A. Oh, to me, I took it to be a gun. 2 So that's -- you know. That's when 3 I threw the car -- the car at him, so he could lock 4 the door, and I tried to take off going west on 5 Wrightwood. 6 And that's when I just -- when I 7 went toward Wrightwood, that's what I just started 8 hearing gunshots. 9 Q. And we're going to get up to that, and 10 I know that that's ultimately what happens. 11 we're just kind of taking this in increments so 12 we're clear about what it is your memory is of each 13 part up until this shooting happens. 14 Okay? So when the guy opens the door, are 15 you directly even with the car to your left? 16 you slightly in front of it? 17 behind it? 18 19 20 21 Are Are you slightly Where exactly are you? MR. SWAMINATHAN: Objection; asked and answered. THE WITNESS: It was like -- more like a 22 little angle, you know? 23 BY MR. GRILL: 24 But Q. A little angle. So the car is slightly in front of you Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 92 1 2 3 and to your left? A. you know? 4 Yeah, a few feet it could have been in, It could have been a few feet. Like you said earlier, you know, it 5 could have been somewhere around there. So he was 6 close enough for me to throw the car at him to get 7 him to shut the door. 8 Q. Did you hit the car? 9 A. No, I didn't hit the car. 10 Q. The person that opened the door, as 11 you -- to your left, and slightly in front of you, 12 did you see where the person looked when he opened 13 the door? 14 A. Where he looked? 15 Q. Yeah. 16 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 17 18 19 20 Where was his head facing? Objection to form and foundation. THE WITNESS: I mean, to open the door, you have to be looking at my car, you know. But I'm not looking at -- I'm trying 21 to see what's in his hand, you know, if he's 22 pointing something at us, you know? 23 24 I'm not worried about -- about him. I'm worried about what he got in his hand. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 You Page 93 1 know what I'm saying? 2 BY MR. GRILL: 3 Q. And you said you saw the gun, correct? 4 A. I took it to be the gun, yeah. 5 6 7 And exactly it was a gun, because they shot at us. Q. And which hand did you see the gun in when he opened the door the first time? 8 A. I believe it was in his right hand. 9 Q. Did he actually point the gun at you at 10 11 this time before you threw your car at his car? A. Yeah, when he opened the door, he 12 pointed -- whatever he got in his hand, he pointed 13 it, and that's when I threw the car at him real 14 quick, and I bent off going west on Wrightwood. 15 Q. Could you see him open the door -- 16 could you see what hand he was opening the door 17 with, the car door with? 18 A. I don't know. All I know, I see the 19 door open. He had his foot on the door, and he had 20 his hand out the car. 21 car at -- at -- my car at they car. 22 And that's when I threw the He locked the door -- got him to 23 lock the door. And that's when I told -- I ended 24 up telling Nuni and them -- at that time I told Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 94 1 them, like, to duck, you know? 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. Because I felt like he was -- you know, 4 I felt it was like a gun in his hand. 5 was, just like ... 6 7 Q. And sure it When you say you got him to lock the door, do you mean you got him to close the door? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. You don't know if he actually locked A. No, I'm not saying locked it. 10 it? 11 12 I got him to shut the door -- 13 Q. All right. 14 A. -- so I could just like bent the other 15 way and go the other way, you know. 16 Q. Okay. So after you throw the car -- 17 your car at his car and the guy closes the door, 18 what do you do at that point after he closes the 19 door? 20 21 22 23 24 A. Wrightwood. Q. I bent to the right, and I hit I go west on Wrightwood. So did you accelerate, or try to accelerate away? A. Yeah, I tried to accelerate and go up Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 95 1 Wrightwood. 2 Q. And you told Alberto and Nuni to duck? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Okay. So you presumably then passed 5 the car on your left and go down Wrightwood, 6 correct? 7 Or head towards Wrightwood? 8 A. 9 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 10 11 No. As we were going -Objection -- objection to form and asked and answered. THE WITNESS: As we're going, Wrightwood is 12 right there. So as we going around the thing, that 13 he opened the door, and I threw the car, and he 14 shut the car, and I ended up taking -- going to the 15 right, and going straight. 16 So he was right there, like more or 17 less, like -- you know? 18 BY MR. GRILL: 19 Q. Right next to you? 20 A. Yeah, right next to me. 21 22 Wrightwood is right there. Q. 23 24 When does the shooting start? Where are you? A. When did the shooting what? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 96 1 2 Q. Yeah. Where are you when -- closest to what street when the shooting starts? 3 A. We're right -- right -- right down 4 Wrightwood when I took -- took the right to go down 5 Wrightwood. 6 As soon as I threw the car and I 7 went to go around Wrightwood, I told them, just 8 duck, and all of a sudden you just hear the shots. 9 10 Q. So it was pretty much like right after you throw the car, your car and -- 11 A. Yeah, as soon as I throw the car and I 12 take off to the right, and I told them, duck, 13 that's what the shooting started. 14 Q. How many shots did you hear, total? 15 A. Oh, man. 17 Q. It was a bunch? 18 A. Yeah, it was pretty much. 16 I can't remember. tell. 19 somewhere around there. 20 know? 21 22 I can't Q. Like I say, I don't know it was -- you Did you see anybody else with a gun in that car to your left? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Just the one guy? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 97 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. So you heard -- if you had testified 3 before that you may have heard up to ten shots, 4 would that be accurate? 5 A. 6 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 7 I mean ... Objection to form and foundation. 8 You can go ahead. 9 THE WITNESS: It could have been somewhere 10 around there. 11 know? 12 there counting shots. 13 I'm trying to get away. 14 BY MR. GRILL: 15 16 17 I mean, it was plenty of shots, you As far as how many shots, I wasn't sitting Q. You know what I'm saying? And so for how many blocks do you drive until the shooting stops? A. I mean, Sawyer was right -- like maybe 18 a half a block away. It was Wrightwood, we have 19 Kedzie, you going in -- into Wrightwood. 20 Sawyer is right there. 21 I mean, they was just quick, and 22 they just stopped, and -- you know? I just drove. 23 I drove down Wrightwood to Kimball. I made a right 24 on Kimball. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 98 1 I remember making another u-ie and 2 coming back, because I'm trying to get Nuni -- 3 when -- at the time that all this is happening, I'm 4 driving. 5 Q. Alberto looks in the back, and he ... You all right, man? 6 7 If you need to take a break, we can take a break. 8 MR. DUTCH: 9 10 What do you want to do, José? Do you want to ... BY MR. GRILL: 11 Q. You all right, man? 12 A. When I take off to the right, 13 Nuni looks -- I mean Alberto looks at the back and 14 he told me my friend is shot in the head. 15 Q. And you tried to go get help, right? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. And that's when you pulled a U-turn and 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 you -A. Yeah, when I busted the U-turn, I was trying to get to the hospital. Q. And you're trying to drive as fast as you can to the hospital, right? A. Yeah. I came back down the same street and shot back up Kedzie, trying to get to the Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 99 1 hospital. 2 3 Q. And on the way there, you get pulled over by the police, correct? 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. Did you get pulled over, or did the 6 police -- did you flag a police officer down? 7 8 A. No. I think they pulled us over as soon as I crossed -- I hit the light on Fullerton. 9 Q. Is it possible you flagged them down? 11 A. Excuse me? 12 Q. Is it possible that you saw a police 10 13 Or -- officer and flagged them down, seeking his help? 14 15 16 Or do you think it's more likely that they pulled you over? A. No. I think when I hit the light -- 17 when I hit the light, he stopped me. 18 when I told him my friend was shot and I was trying 19 to get him to the hospital. 20 21 22 And that's And they kept me there, and they called the ambulance. Q. How many officers were there when you 23 got pulled over that -- initially in this car that 24 pulled you over? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. How many did you see? 312.781.9586 Page 100 1 A. I don't remember if it was two. 2 It could have been two. 3 Q. Do you remember their names? 4 A. I know one of them was Daley. 5 Q. Daley? 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. D-a-l-e-y? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. Did you speak with Officer Daley at the 10 11 scene where he pulled you over? A. Well, I told him my friend was shot, I 12 was trying to get him to the hospital. 13 just kept us right there, and -- trying to get an 14 ambulance in. 15 16 And that's when I seen that Nuni was shot in the back of the head. 17 Q. 18 correct? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. The back window? 21 A. Yeah, the back window. 22 23 24 And they And your windows were shot out, too, In your car? He hit the car a few times. Q. And then some of the windows on the driver's side were shot out as well, correct? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 101 1 A. Yeah. 2 I don't know if my window on the 3 side was shot out. 4 from them. 5 6 I think the back one. Q. I was just trying to get away scene. So you spoke with Officer Daley at the What did you tell him? 7 What did you guys talk about? 8 A. I can't remember, man. 9 Q. Did you recount to him a similar story 10 that you just told me now, about how the shooting 11 happened and what you were doing? 12 A. Yeah, I could have. I can't remember. 13 Q. Did you talk to any other officers 14 besides Officer Daley at the scene where you got 15 pulled over? 16 A. No. I just talked to Daley. 17 Q. Did Officer Daley arrest you or place 18 you under arrest or anything like that at that 19 point? 20 A. No. I guess -- I guess they just 21 wanted to talk to us. 22 remember, you know? 23 24 Q. I don't know -- I can't How long do you think you spoke with Officer Daley for? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 102 1 A. Not long. 2 Q. Did any other police officers or 3 emergency personnel come to the scene where you got 4 pulled over? 5 A. I wasn't even paying attention to them. 6 Q. Did an ambulance come for Nuni? 7 A. I can't tell you how long it took the 8 ambulance to come, either. 9 Q. But did one come is what I'm asking. 10 A. I mean, I don't know. 11 remember. I can't remember. 12 the ambulance came. 13 14 15 16 17 I can't remember if I don't know how long -- if they did come, if we were still there. Q. I can't remember. How long do you think you were at the scene where you got pulled over? A. I don't know. 18 19 I don't even I can't tell you that. I can't remember that. Q. Did you ever see Alberto speaking with 20 any police officers at the scene where you got 21 pulled over? 22 A. Not that I could recall. 23 Q. Alberto was there, though, correct? 24 A. Yeah. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 103 1 2 Q. He didn't, like, run off from the scene? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Okay. No. We were in the car. Did you tell any officers at 5 that scene where you got pulled over that you could 6 identify the person that shot at your vehicle and 7 shot Nuni? 8 9 10 11 A. I can't remember. All I -- if I did tell them, I just told them the car, what type of car it was that I thought it was at the time, so ... Q. Is it possible that you told some -- 12 any of the officers at the scene that you may be 13 able to identify the shooter? 14 A. 15 16 17 I can't recall that. I mean, like, it's been a while. Q. And my question is a little bit more specific. 19 told one of the officers that? 21 22 23 24 I can't remember all this stuff. 18 20 I can't remember. It's is it possible that you may have MR. SWAMINATHAN: Objection to form. Objection, asked and answered. THE WITNESS: I can't -- I can't tell you. I can't -- I mean, I can't remember a lot of this stuff. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 104 1 2 BY MR. GRILL: Q. Okay. If any police officer had 3 documented at that time that you were able to -- or 4 that you told them that you were able to possibly 5 identify the shooter, would that be truthful, or 6 would that not be truthful? 7 MR. SWAMINATHAN: Objection to the form of 8 the question, and to the extent it misstates the 9 record. 10 THE WITNESS: 11 MR. GRILL: 12 question. 13 BY MR. GRILL: 14 Q. Can you say that again? I'll actually withdraw the All right. So after you were pulled 15 over and talked to Officer Daley at the scene, at 16 some point that same night you went down to the 17 police station, correct? 18 19 20 21 A. 24 I believe -- yeah, they took us to the station. Q. Okay. And so you're saying "They took us to the station." 22 23 Yeah. You were transported to the police station by the police? A. Yeah. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 105 1 2 Q. with you? All right. And was anybody transported Strike that question. 3 Was Alberto in the same car with you 4 on the way to the police station, or did he get put 5 in another car? 6 7 A. I can't remember if he was in the same car or they took him in a different car. 8 9 10 I can't remember. Q. And do you remember who it was that drove you to the police station? 11 A. No. I can't remember that, either. 12 Q. Do you remember whether there was more 13 than one police officer in the car with you as you 14 drove to the police station? 15 A. I can't remember, sir. 16 Q. Do you know why they were taking you to 17 the police station? 18 A. Probably because of the shooting. 19 Q. And do you remember being at the police 20 station that night after the shooting, as you sit 21 here today? 22 A. I mean, they took us to 5555 Grand. 23 Q. Okay. 24 And do you remember where you went when you got in there, or where they brought Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 106 1 you when you first arrived at the police station? 2 A. They took us to the second floor. 3 Q. Okay. 4 5 6 And did they put you in a room? Or where did you go when you got up to the second floor there? A. I don't know. I mean, they could have 7 put me in a room. I can't remember. I don't know 8 if I was sitting at the desk or if I was in the 9 room, one of the rooms. I can't remember. 10 Q. Was anybody that that room with you? 11 A. I don't think there was nobody in the 12 room with me. 13 remember if they separated me and Alberto. 14 don't -- I can't -- I can't remember everything. 15 16 Q. I don't know if they -- I can't I Do you remember whether -- strike that question. 17 At some point some police officers 18 came in and spoke with you in that room, correct? 19 A. Probably, yes. 20 Q. Do you remember the names of those 21 officers that came in and spoke with you? 22 A. I can't remember all their names, man. 23 Q. Would you know if it was a Detective 24 McMurray and a Detective Wojcik that came in and Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 107 1 spoke with you? 2 Do you remember if either of those 3 officers came in and spoke with you at the police 4 station that night? 5 A. I don't know. I can't tell you 6 about -- if Wojcik was there. 7 sounds familiar, but -- you know? 8 if it was them or not, so ... 9 10 Q. But the name Murray I can't tell you Why does the name McMurray sound familiar to you? 11 A. Because I heard the name before. 12 Q. In connection with this investigation? 13 A. I -- I can't -- I can't tell you. I 14 don't know who was investigating the case, or -- I 15 couldn't tell you who was investigating that case 16 at the time. 17 18 19 Q. Do you remember how many detectives came in and spoke with you? A. I mean, that's -- that's the second 20 floor is where they're all at, so it could have 21 been anybody at the time. 22 23 24 You know what I'm saying. Q. And I'm just asking, like in the room that they put you in, was it one officer or Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 108 1 detective that came in and spoke with you? 2 Was it two? 3 Was it five, if you remember? 4 A. I don't know. It could have been two; 5 could have been one. 6 want me to guess, I'll guess. 7 can't tell you exact number, you know? 8 9 10 Q. I mean, I -- I mean, if you But I can't -- I But you do recall being interviewed that night about what had occurred in the shooting -- 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. -- correct? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. And did you tell those detectives -- 15 what did you tell -- strike that question. 16 Did you tell the detectives that 17 prior to the shooting, that you were on your way 18 from the Lathrop Homes on the way over to Humboldt 19 Park? 20 21 22 A. Yeah, because that's where we were going. Q. And that as the three of you left the 23 Lathrop Homes in your car, you headed westbound on 24 Logan Boulevard? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 109 1 2 Did you tell the police officers that? 3 A. Westbound on Logan -- yeah. 4 Q. And did you tell the police officers 5 that you were driving the vehicle with Alberto in 6 the passenger front seat and Nuni in the driver's 7 side rear seat? 8 9 10 A. Yeah, because that's where we were -- that's where we were at. Q. Did you tell the police officers that, 11 as you approached the Logan Square monument, you 12 observed the above detailed -- or that you observed 13 the offender's vehicle, also headed westbound, stop 14 in front of you at the stop sign just east of the 15 monument circle drive? 16 17 18 19 20 A. I told them -- if I remember right, I told them that they slowed down. Q. Okay. And did you describe that vehicle to the police officers as a Park Avenue? A. Yeah. I told them it was a short body; 21 could have been a Park Avenue or a LeSabre. 22 model I don't know, but it looked like a Park 23 Avenue to me. 24 Q. Which And the Park Avenue and the LeSabre Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 110 1 look kind of similar to each other? 2 A. Yeah, they look the same thing. 3 Q. Now, did you tell the detectives that 4 night that after the Park Avenue proceeded from the 5 stop sign, it slowed down in the lane to your left? 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. And that it appeared to wait until you 8 would catch up with it? 9 A. Yeah, they slowed down. 10 Q. And did you tell the police officers 11 that as the vehicles continued west towards the 12 stop light at Logan and Milwaukee, you observed the 13 occupants to be at least throwing gang signs? 14 A. Yeah, they threw some gang signs. 15 Q. Is it possible that you told the 16 detectives that you specifically saw the occupants 17 of the vehicle throwing down the crown? 18 19 A. I can't remember right now, you know. Like I said, it's been a while, you know? But ... 20 Q. Is it possible? 21 A. Yeah, he could have been throwing some. 22 He was throwing some at me. 23 of gang signs. 24 Q. He was doing some kind Did you tell the officers that you and Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 111 1 the other people, being Alberto and Nuni, did not 2 represent your gang affiliation back to that 3 vehicle? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Meaning you didn't do that, correct? 6 (Brief interruption.) 7 MR. GRILL: 8 THE WITNESS: 9 MR. GRILL: 10 Are you hungry? Let's get this over with. He wants to get it over with. We'll be done shortly. 11 getting to the end of this. 12 BY MR. GRILL: 13 Q. We're So your answer is, is that you, 14 Alberto, or Nuni did not throw any gang signs back 15 at the vehicle to your left, correct? 16 A. No. 17 Q. No, you did not throw them? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Okay. Or no -- Did you tell the police officers 20 that, while stopped at the light at Logan and 21 Milwaukee, that the occupants of the Park Avenue 22 were now stopped directly to your left and even 23 with your vehicle, continued throwing gang signs, 24 and began representing the Cobra gang sign? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 112 1 A. They could have been. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. Yeah, they could have been throwing 4 some, but to me, looked like he was throwing up the 5 Cobra gang sign. 6 Q. Did you tell the police officers that 7 during this time, you observed the driver reach to 8 the driver's side door panel, remove an object, and 9 hand it to the passenger? 10 11 A. Yeah, he could have -- he moved something. 12 Q. But, I mean -- 13 A. I didn't know what he was -- I didn't 14 know what he was doing. 15 something and -- you know? 16 to the passenger. 17 Q. Okay. I just seen him doing Like handing something And then at that point, you 18 pulled away from the light onto circle drive 19 towards southbound Kedzie Avenue; is that correct, 20 that you told the police that? 21 A. That I what? 22 Q. That you pulled away from the light 23 onto the circle drive going around the monument 24 toward southbound Kedzie Avenue? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 113 1 2 A. Kedzie. 3 Q. Yeah, I was going around, going towards I was going to go down Kedzie. And did you tell the police officers 4 that the vehicle to your left remained in the lane 5 to your left and followed you around the circle? 6 7 A. Q. But you guys proceeded together around the monument? 10 11 He was in front of me. 8 9 They didn't follow me. A. Yeah, more or less we kind of proceeded together. 12 Q. Did you tell the police officers that, 13 while proceeding around the circle drive just west 14 of the monument and north to Wrightwood, you stated 15 that you observed the front seat passenger in the 16 Park Avenue open the door and reach around the door 17 with a handgun in his right hand? 18 Did you tell the police that? 19 A. He opened the door. 20 Q. And you observed a handgun in his right A. Yeah, I could have told -- I could 21 hand? 22 23 have -- yeah, it's possible I could have told them 24 that. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 114 1 Q. And did you tell the police officers 2 that this person began firing in the direction of 3 your vehicle? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And that you -- and then you told the 6 police that you accelerated your vehicle and turned 7 west onto Wrightwood from the circle? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And did you tell the police that the 10 Park Avenue then was in pursuit of your vehicle, 11 meaning that -- 12 A. I don't know if he -- I can't remember 13 if he came behind me, you know. 14 get away, you know. 15 see him behind me. 16 17 I was trying to Once I passed Sawyer, I didn't So he could have came behind me. I mean, I can't remember everything, you know? 18 Q. Did you tell the police that as you 19 fled westbound, you heard additional shots being 20 fired? 21 A. Yeah, he went -- I mean, when he opened 22 the door, he shot -- shot a couple more times. 23 don't -- I mean, I heard a couple shots, you know? 24 I I don't know if it was two different Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 115 1 gun, one gun -- you know? 2 was just trying to get away. 3 Q. But I heard shots, and I Do you recall telling the police that 4 night that you then drove through stop signs on 5 Wrightwood and headed -- heading towards Kimball 6 Avenue, where you turned north? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. And do you remember telling -- 9 MR. SWAMINATHAN: I'm going to state an 10 objection. 11 questions here to ask him what he told the police 12 officer. 13 being answered essentially is he's essentially 14 going through his prior testimony again for what I 15 would say is the third or fourth time, and being 16 asked to tell you sort of the exact same things. 17 I understand you are asking these And I think the way the questions are And so it isn't clear to me whether 18 the witness is being able to tell you whether 19 he's -- what he told the officer, or whether he's 20 just telling you again what happened. 21 And, you know, to the extent that 22 can be made clear, that would be great. 23 want to ask the witness, what did he tell the 24 officers, you could do that. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 If you Page 116 1 2 But I just want to note that for the record. 3 MR. GRILL: Sure. And I would say, for the 4 record, that preceding these questions, I'm asking 5 Mr. Melendez if he remembers telling the officers 6 this. 7 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 8 MR. GRILL: 9 10 Understood. So ... BY MR. GRILL: Q. Mr. Melendez, do you remember telling 11 the police officers that night that, after the 12 shots were fired, the offender's vehicle continued 13 westbound on Wrightwood, at which time Alberto 14 informed you that Nuni had been shot? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. And then do you remember telling the 17 police that -- on that night, that after Alberto 18 told you this, you made a U-turn and headed back 19 towards Wrightwood? 20 A. Yeah. I went onto Kimball. I made a 21 right on Kimball, I bust the u-ie, and I went back 22 the other way, the same way I came, and I was 23 trying to go down Kedzie to take him to the 24 hospital. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 117 1 2 3 4 5 Q. And you remember telling the police that, that night? A. I mean, if that's what's there, that's what I told him. Q. Okay. You know what I'm saying? Now, after speaking with the 6 police that night in the interview room, you were 7 also shown photo books containing pictures of gang 8 members, correct? 9 A. Yeah, I believe I was. 10 Q. All right. 11 12 13 14 15 And do you remember whether you viewed one book or more than one book? A. I don't know if I looked through a couple of books. Q. I don't know. I can't remember. Had you ever seen these books before in your life? 16 A. Unh-unh. 17 Q. And did any officer, or any person that 18 handed you any of those books, tell you what they 19 were or what they contained? 20 21 22 A. I mean, they were mug shots. You could tell they were mug shots. Q. And do you know how many photographs, 23 roughly, if you can estimate, were in any one of 24 these books that were shown to you that night? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 118 1 A. I mean, I can't tell you. 2 3 4 They were just books. You know what I mean? Q. Did any detective -- or did anybody 5 inform you whether the books contained pictures of 6 gang members? 7 A. Yeah, they were mug shots of gang 8 members, all different gangs. 9 were mug shots of different gangs. 10 11 So obviously they I don't know, you know. Q. Do you remember if the photo books were 12 arranged in such a way where like one book 13 contained pictures of one gang, and another book 14 contained pictures of people in another gang? 15 16 Or were the pictures, to your recollection, like jumbled up between the books? 17 A. I -- I can't ... 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. You know what I mean? 20 They just a bunch of pictures. I 21 can't tell you how they kept their books, you know? 22 Just books. 23 24 And they said, look through these, and that's all. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 119 1 Q. Okay. Did any officer tell you 2 anything along the lines of, hey, this is a book of 3 Spanish Cobra gang members, or this is a book of 4 Orchestra Albany gang members? 5 6 Do you remember any statements like that? 7 A. No, I can't remember. 8 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 9 10 Objection to form. (Discussion off the record.) MR. SWAMINATHAN: And maybe we can just note, 11 for the witness, to make it a little easier, try to 12 give it a second after he finishes his question, 13 just so I have a second to try to object before he 14 answers. 15 16 17 MR. GRILL: I'll just reask the question. BY MR. GRILL: Q. Mr. Melendez, did any officer that 18 night -- do you recall any officer that night, when 19 they gave you the photo books to look at, whether 20 any of those officers identified any of those books 21 as this book being pictures of Spanish Cobra gang 22 members, this book being pictures of, for example, 23 Orchestra Albany gang members? 24 Were the books identified to you in Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 120 1 a way like that at all? 2 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 3 THE WITNESS: Objection to form. No. They -- I can't -- I can't 4 tell you they told me that, because I can't 5 remember that. 6 books to look through. 7 BY MR. GRILL: 8 9 10 Q. I just know they just gave me some Were you alone when you were looking at these books, these photo books? A. I can't remember. 11 12 I believe I was. I mean -- I don't know. I can't remember. 13 You know, at one point, I don't 14 remember seeing TiTi around me, so -- Alberto. 15 So I don't -- I don't know if I was 16 by myself or -- you know? 17 giving me books to look through, you know? 18 19 Q. Okay. But I remember him How long did you look at these books for that night, if you remember? 20 A. I can't remember. 21 Q. Did you make any identification of who 22 it was that you saw shoot Nuni that night? 23 A. No. I can't remember, man. 24 Q. I should ask you this. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 121 1 Did you see the person in any of 2 these photo books shown to you that night at the 3 police station -- did you see a picture of the 4 person that you saw shoot Nuni? 5 6 A. I seen nobody I recognized. what I'm saying? 7 8 9 You know No, I didn't see nobody I recognized. Q. All right. So after you looked at those books and could not make an identification, 10 did you communicate that to the police officers 11 that night, that you didn't see the shooter in 12 these books? 13 14 15 16 A. I can't remember if I told them I did or I didn't. Q. How long do you think you were at the police station that night? 17 A. That I can't remember either. 18 Q. Did you see Detective Guevara at any 19 20 21 point that night? A. Yeah, I seen him that day. I seen him -- I believe I seen him that day. 22 Q. On the day of the shooting? 23 A. In the police station, when they took 24 me to the police station. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 122 1 2 Q. And I'm talking specifically on the 23rd into the 24th. 3 A. The day the shooting happened. 4 Q. And where do you remember seeing 5 Detective Guevara on the day that you were -- on 6 the day of the shooting on the 23rd or the 24th? 7 A. I believe it was in the police station. 8 Q. Do you remember where you saw him? 9 A. Upstairs in one of the rooms. 10 Q. Did he ever come into your room that 11 you were being interviewed in? 12 A. Yeah. He sat next to me at one point. 13 Q. Okay. And when you saw him in the room 14 that day on the 23rd into the 24th, was he with any 15 other detective? 16 A. I can't recall. 17 Q. And do you remember what Guevara said 18 19 to you that day? A. 20 21 22 23 24 No, I can't recall, either. But I remember it had something to do with pictures. Q. Okay. Did he -- was he there with you when you looked at these photo books? A. I don't -- I can't recall that, either. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 123 1 Q. Okay. Do you remember whether Guevara 2 was the person that handed you the photo books to 3 look at that night? 4 A. That I can't remember either. 5 Q. Now, do you remember whether Guevara 6 told you to pick anybody out of the photo books? 7 A. No. 8 Q. You can't remember? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Now, do you remember what time it was 11 that you -- well, strike that question. 12 13 I can't remember. At some point you left the police station that night, correct? 14 A. I don't know how. I mean, obviously I 15 could go home, so I had to leave at one point. 16 I don't remember what time I left the station. 17 18 Q. Okay. But you did leave the station at some point that night, correct? 19 A. Probably, yeah. 20 Q. And did you go home? 21 22 Or where did you go afterwards, if you remember? 23 24 But A. there. I can't tell you where I went from I don't know. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. I mean, I can't remember. 312.781.9586 Page 124 1 Q. Now, some days later you came back to 2 the police station to look at a photo lineup, 3 correct? 4 A. Probably. I remember them calling me 5 one time to come back, but I can't remember what it 6 was for. 7 Q. If the police reports document you 8 returning to the police station on May 30th, 1995, 9 to do a photo lineup, would you have any reason to 10 dispute that statement? 11 12 MR. SWAMINATHAN: the foundation. 13 14 Objection to the form and THE WITNESS: I mean -- I mean, I remember being called a second time. 15 But, you know, I don't know -- I 16 don't know why I went there that day. 17 if it was for that or what, you know. 18 BY MR. GRILL: 19 20 Q. Okay. I don't know Do you remember being shown -- strike that question. 21 Do you know what a photo lineup is? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And what do you know a photo lineup to 24 be? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 125 1 A. They put some pictures in front of me 2 and tell me if -- you know, if I -- basically if I 3 see the guy that did it. 4 Q. Okay. And you understand -- or would 5 you agree that a photo lineup like you're 6 describing is different than looking at those photo 7 books that you were looking at before? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. So at some point you remember returning 10 to the police station to view a photo lineup, 11 correct? 12 A. If you say so. 13 Q. And that was on a different day than 14 you viewed the photo books, correct? 15 A. Could have been, yes. 16 Q. All right. And do you know how you got 17 to the police station the day that you went down to 18 look at the photo books -- or photo lineup? 19 me. 20 A. I think we drove. 21 Q. And who is "we"? 22 A. Or I drove myself. 23 Q. You drove yourself there? 24 A. Probably. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. Excuse I mean, I had to, because -- 312.781.9586 Page 126 1 I don't know. 2 me up. 3 4 I don't think they came and picked I drove myself over there. Q. And "they" being you don't believe the police came to pick you up? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. Do you remember if you went down to the 7 police station with anyone else other than 8 yourself? 9 10 A. me that day. I don't remember if Alberto came with 11 Q. I can't remember. When you got to the police station, if 12 you remember, what did you do first when you got 13 there? 14 Where did you go? A. No. I mean, if the detectives wanted 15 to talk to me, I had to go upstairs to the second 16 floor, because that's where they do all the 17 interviews. 18 19 20 Q. Now, how did you know you needed to go look at a photo lineup at the police station? A. They called me, the detectives, or -- I 21 don't know who called me. 22 needed me to come in on the second time, I believe 23 the second time they called me, not the day of the 24 shooting. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. But they told me they 312.781.9586 Page 127 1 2 Another time they called me to come in and look at some photos or something. 3 Q. And other than the night that you went 4 in to the police station and were interviewed the 5 night of the shooting and this other time that you 6 described when they asked you to come in and view 7 the photos, the photo lineup, did you go to the 8 police station between those two time periods for 9 any other reason on this case? 10 A. No, I don't think I did. 11 Q. All right. 12 photo lineup? 13 14 Did you go again after the Or was it the only other time you went? 15 A. You mean after the lineup? 16 Q. Um-hum. 17 A. The first -- after the first time, I 18 went a second time, and I believe that was it. 19 20 21 I don't think I went no other time. Q. And the police station they asked you to come to is Area 5, correct? 22 A. Yeah. Should be on Grand, yeah. 23 Q. Yeah. All right. 24 Now, do you remember, when you got Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 128 1 the phone call to come into the police station, did 2 you actually speak to the person on the phone, or 3 was it a message that was passed to you by someone 4 else that, hey, they want you to come to the police 5 station? 6 A. I believe it was -- somebody talked to 7 me. Could have been one of the detectives. 8 don't know if -- could have been, you know? 9 10 And I But it had to be a police to tell me to come over there and look at some lineups. 11 Q. Did they make any other statements to 12 you that you remember other than "We want you to 13 come in and look at a lineup"? 14 A. No. They -- I remember them telling me 15 about -- something about a car, too, like we think 16 we got the car. 17 So I don't know, you know, if I 18 seen -- I mean, I remember the second time going, I 19 seen a car out front, too, so ... 20 Q. Did the person that called you make any 21 statements that they had found the person that shot 22 Nuni? 23 at the lineup? 24 A. Or did they just ask you to come in and look No. I can't remember. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 129 1 They just wanted me to come in. 2 3 Q. All right. you view this photo lineup once you got there? 4 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 5 THE WITNESS: 6 floor. 7 BY MR. GRILL: Q. Okay. 9 A. Upstairs. 10 Q. All right. 14 15 16 Was Alberto with you when you viewed the photo lineup? MR. SWAMINATHAN: Objection. Asked and answered. THE WITNESS: 17 I can't remember that. He could have been; he could have 18 not been. 19 BY MR. GRILL: 20 And were you with anybody -- was -- strike that. 12 13 Objection to form. I believe it was in the second 8 11 So where in the station did Q. I don't know, you know? Were you in the same room on the second 21 floor when you viewed the photo lineup, you know, 22 as it was when you viewed the photo books? 23 24 A. I can't remember what room I was in. I mean, I'm pretty sure they got a Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 130 1 few rooms upstairs, you know; they separate people. 2 So I could have been -- I don't know if it was the 3 same room. 4 room. 5 6 Q. I can't tell you if it was the same Do you remember how long you had to wait before viewing the photo lineup? 7 A. I can't remember that either. 8 Q. So when they administered the photo 9 10 lineup to you, how many officers were in the room with you when you viewed the photo lineup? 11 A. I can't remember that. 12 Q. One or -- was it more than one? 13 A. I don't know. 14 15 It could have been -- could have been two; could have been one. Q. Do you remember the names of any of the 16 detectives that presented the photo lineup pictures 17 to you? 18 A. The one -- the only person I remember 19 from that time when they showed me the lineup was 20 Guevara. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. -- because he showed me the pictures, 23 24 you know? He was next to me -- And he showed me the pictures. He was the one showing the pictures Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 131 1 2 of the photo lineup, I guess. Q. So it's your testimony, if I'm 3 understanding you correctly, that Guevara was 4 present when you looked at the photo books, 5 correct? 6 A. 7 8 9 I didn't say that. who was there at that time. Q. I don't remember I can't remember. So a moment ago -- a couple minutes ago I thought I understood you to be saying that when 10 you looked at the photo books the night of the 11 shooting, that Guevara was there also that night. 12 A. 13 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 14 THE WITNESS: 15 No. Objection. No. BY MR. GRILL: 16 Q. Let's be clear. 17 A. No. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. No. 20 21 22 23 24 He was not there that night? I didn't say he was there or not. I don't remember who was there that night. Q. Okay. So when is the first time that you remember seeing Guevara? A. The day they put the photo -- the -- a few photos on the thing. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 132 1 2 3 Q. Okay. So it's the day that you viewed the photo lineup is the first time you saw Guevara? A. I believe it was the second time I came 4 to the station, where they asked -- well, they hd a 5 car there, and they told me to look at a lineup. 6 Q. So you viewed this photo lineup. 7 And it's your testimony that Guevara 8 is sitting next to you as you are viewing this 9 photo lineup? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you don't have a recollection 12 whether there were any other officers, other than 13 Guevara, in the room when you were viewing this 14 lineup; is that right? 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A. else there. Q. I can't remember if there was anybody If there was, I -- I don't know. How many photographs did Guevara put in front of you, if you remember? A. I believe it was probably like five -- somewhere around five photographs. Q. Were they color photographs? Were they black and white photographs? A. I mean, back at that time, they were like -- looked like Polaroids to me. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 133 1 2 3 4 Q. Okay. Did Guevara make any statements to you as he put these photographs in front of you? A. I mean, he had some -- he had like some photographs. He had one in his hand. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. And he's kind of like we believe this 7 is the guy, you know. But ... 8 Q. Did he say that? 9 A. He said, we believe this is the guy 10 that did it, you know? 11 at them, you know, and -- I mean, I looked at them. 12 13 So, I mean, I just looked He -- they took me outside to look at the car. 14 Q. We're going to get there. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. We're just talking about the 17 photographs for now. Okay? 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. So when Guevara says, we believe that 20 this is the guy that did it, or something to that 21 effect, was he referencing a certain picture at 22 that time? 23 24 Which guy was he talking about? A. I mean, when -- when he came down to it Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 134 1 the whole time, it was this guy Thomas, whoever 2 this guy Thomas ... 3 Q. Thomas Sierra? 4 A. Yeah, and it ended up being him. 5 Q. Okay. 6 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 7 Sorry. I'm just going to stop you for one second. 8 9 Did he ask -- You had asked a previous question, to which he nodded his head. 10 MR. GRILL: Oh, okay. 11 MR. SWAMINATHAN: Thank you. And we could either re-ask 12 question -- why don't you re-ask the question and 13 he can answer it. 14 MR. GRILL: 15 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 16 I don't know which one it was. I think it's -- there was a question for which there was -- he nodded his head. 17 So that the question began so when 18 he -- so when Guevara says he believes that this -- 19 when you stated you believed Guevara was the guy -- 20 you know which question to which he nodded his head 21 on? 22 23 Can you just re-ask that question. MR. GRILL: I think I know the question you are asking for. 24 Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 135 1 BY MR. GRILL: 2 Q. When you say that Guevara said to you 3 something to the effect of we believe it's this 4 guy, was Guevara -- which guy was Guevara talking 5 about? 6 A. I believe it was the guy Thomas. 7 Q. Okay. 8 9 10 11 12 And you are referring to Thomas Sierra? A. If that was his name, the guy that got locked up, yes. Q. Did Guevara ever use the name Thomas Sierra when he was showing you these photographs? 13 A. No. 14 Q. And which picture did Guevara have in 15 16 his hand? A. 17 I mean, how am I going to guess? I mean, he had pictures. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. You know, he had Polaroid pictures. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. He had -- more or less there was some 22 23 24 on the table, and he had one in his hand. Q. And which picture -- did you select one of the pictures as the person that shot Nuni? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 136 1 A. I don't -- I don't remember what I told 2 him at that point. 3 ended up saying yeah, that's him, just to get out 4 the station. 5 Q. 10 All right. You don't remember pointing to one of the photographs? 8 9 I don't -- I don't remember. You know, I can't tell you. 6 7 I don't remember if -- if I A. I don't -- I don't -- you know, like I tell you, man, this happened so long, I can't remember all of this stuff. 11 Q. Okay. What did Guevara -- or did 12 Guevara make any comments to you about the 13 photograph that he had in his hand? 14 15 A. What do you mean by comments? 16 17 Comments? Q. Did he talk about the photograph that he said that he had in his hand? 18 A. Other than he say he believe that was 19 the guy, no, not -- I don't -- can't recall nothing 20 else. 21 Q. So when Guevara was telling you that he 22 believed this was the guy, he was referring to the 23 photograph that he was holding in his hand? 24 A. Yeah, the photograph he had in his hand. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 137 1 2 Q. Did he ever put that photograph down on the table? 3 A. I mean, he had it in his hand. I don't 4 know if he put it at the end right there by where 5 he was at, you know? 6 I can't -- I can't remember. You know what I'm saying? 7 Q. So at some point during this photo 8 lineup, you did look at all the pictures that Rey 9 Guevara had, including the one that was in his 10 hand, correct? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. Okay. 13 Did you recognize the shooter in any of those pictures? 14 A. Like I say, I -- when it happened, I 15 didn't see this guy's face. 16 saying? 17 me he knew this guy was the shooter. 18 out, whatever, I don't know. 19 saying? 20 You know what I'm You know how -- you know, he came to tell How he found You know what I'm I just, like -- I can't -- I 21 couldn't remember, you know? 22 exactly who I picked out the lineup, or -- you 23 know? 24 I can't tell you He told me he believes this is the Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 138 1 shooter, so, you know, I don't know -- after a 2 while -- after that, I don't know what was said 3 because I can't remember. 4 everything. 5 Q. I can't remember Well, did you then -- you know, whether 6 or not you actually saw the shooter, did you at 7 this point actually select one of the photographs? 8 Do you remember doing that? 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. Okay. I mean ... Do you remember testifying in 11 the case against -- the criminal case against 12 Thomas Sierra? 13 A. Yeah. I believe they locked me up just 14 so I could testify at the time. I got locked up. 15 I don't know what it was for, but they held me 16 there. I believe they held me there. 17 I don't know if I was supposed to go 18 home, but they ended up keeping me because I don't 19 know if -- I don't remember if I -- at the same 20 time I had a case, I was fighting a case myself at 21 the time. 22 Q. Do you remember what case that was? 23 A. It was something to do with the Kaboom! 24 Nightclub case, so I believe it was my guy Petrov, Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 139 1 Juliano Petrov. 2 same year. 3 Q. He ended up getting killed that And in fact you were accused, at least 4 at that time, of having murdered that fellow, 5 correct, outside the Kaboom! Nightclub, as you were 6 speaking on a pay phone? 7 A. What was the question again? 8 Q. At the time you testified in the Thomas 9 10 Sierra criminal case, you were being held under suspicion of having committed a murder, correct? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. All right. And that murder involved 13 the shooting of an individual outside the Kaboom! 14 Nightclub, right? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. And you were not convicted of that, 17 correct? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Okay. So it's true that you were being 20 held, not because they wanted you to testify 21 against -- or in the Thomas Sierra case. 22 being held on a suspicion of murder charge, 23 correct? 24 A. You were I don't know if I ended up -- they Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 140 1 discharged that other case. And I don't know if 2 they -- I can't remember if they held me until this 3 other case was coming up. 4 I don't know if it was -- you know? 5 But I was being -- they didn't -- 6 they didn't let me go because they wanted me to 7 testify in this case. 8 9 10 11 Q. Okay. And do you remember when, in relation to when you testified in the Thomas Sierra case, you were found not guilty of that murder? A. 12 I can't remember the date. I can't remember. 13 Q. Was it before or after you testified? 14 A. I don't -- I can't remember. 15 Q. Now, do you remember, testifying at the 16 criminal trial against Thomas Sierra, being asked 17 these questions, and giving the following answers: 18 19 "Question: Did you recognize anybody from those photos?" 20 And you gave the answer: 21 "Yes. 22 didn't." 23 24 He asked me, and I told him I And do you remember being asked this question: "Did you point out anybody in those Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 141 1 photos?" 2 3 And you gave this answer: pointed out the one he told me to point out." 4 5 6 7 8 "I Do you remember being asked those questions and giving those answers? A. I mean, if that's what's on there, that's what I said. Q. Is that true, though? 9 Did -- for example, did you actually 10 point out a photograph that Guevara had placed in 11 front of you, whether it was the one in his hand or 12 any of the other ones he laid out in front of you? 13 14 15 A. I mean, could have been the one he said -- he had in his hand. Q. Well, my question to you, though -- 16 just listen to what I'm asking you: 17 remember actually pointing out one of the 18 photographs that Guevara had, whether it was the 19 one in his hand or the ones that he laid out in 20 front of you? 21 22 23 24 A. Do you I -- I guess I pointed out the one that he had in his hand. Q. But you're saying you're guessing. Is it true that you don't remember Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 142 1 today? 2 don't remember doing this? 3 4 Is that what you're telling me, that you A. I mean, like I'm telling you, man, this happened a long time ago. 5 You know, you're asking me stuff 6 that I might remember some things, and I might not 7 remember other things, you know? 8 like I say, you know, you told me he believes this 9 is the one. 10 11 12 And, you know -- So maybe I did point out that picture, you know? Q. Did you testify -- when you testified 13 in the Thomas Sierra criminal trial, were you 14 testifying truthfully? 15 A. I mean, I just -- I just said what -- 16 what I -- what I said there, that's what I said, 17 you know? 18 told them the day at the trial. 19 That's -- what says there, that's what I If that's -- if that's in the court 20 paper, whatever I said there, that's what I said at 21 the trial at the time. 22 23 24 Q. And I understand that. But my question is a little different than that. My question is was your testimony Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 143 1 that you gave at the Thomas Sierra criminal trial, 2 was it truthful? 3 A. I mean, if he say -- he told me that he 4 believe that was the guy, maybe he did it. 5 know -- I don't know if that was the guy. 6 me he believed that was the guy, so, yeah, I 7 probably did point him out, you know? 8 9 10 11 He told My friend just got shot, and -- you know? I -- you know, I was upset. You know what I'm saying? Q. Right. And in fact, do you remember 12 being -- strike that question. 13 strike that question. 14 15 I don't Do you remember -- You said just a moment ago that you were upset that Nuni got shot, correct? 16 A. Um-hum. 17 Q. Yes? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Thank you. And earlier in this 20 deposition, you know, it appeared to me that 21 recalling some of these events, and particularly 22 Nuni's actually being shot, seems to still bother 23 you to a degree today; is that right? 24 A. Yeah. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. It bothers me, yeah. 312.781.9586 Page 144 1 Q. In fact, earlier in this deposition, we 2 had to take a break because you were upset and 3 crying a little bit about it, correct? 4 A. Yeah. I was upset, yeah. 5 Q. And it's difficult, I imagine, trying 6 to recall something like this, that -- or at least 7 difficult emotionally, correct? 8 9 A. Yeah. I mean, you have somebody that you close to -- I mean, yeah, it bother you, you 10 know? 11 not to think about this stuff any more. 12 It's been so long that -- you know, I try Q. And when you spoke with the police on 13 May 23rd, or again on May 30th of 1995, you wanted 14 to help the police if you could identify who shot 15 your friend; is that correct? 16 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 17 THE WITNESS: 18 19 Objection to form. If I could have, yeah. BY MR. GRILL: Q. And isn't it true that one of the 20 reasons that you identified -- or that you said in 21 the past that you identified Thomas Sierra in that 22 photograph that Guevara -- amongst the photographs 23 that Guevara showed you was because indeed that you 24 were mad because your friend had been shot? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 145 1 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 2 THE WITNESS: Objection to form. I mean, like I said, man, he 3 told me, we believe this is the guy that did it, 4 you know? 5 he found out something I didn't know, you know. So, you know, by him -- I don't know if 6 But, you know, if he think that's 7 him, yeah, well, I'll say that's him, you know? 8 BY MR. GRILL: 9 Q. Do you remember being asked these 10 questions and giving these answers in the Thomas 11 Sierra criminal trial? 12 "Question: 13 anybody out in those photos? 14 15 "Answer: Did you point I pointed out the one he told me to point out. 16 "Question: 17 you exactly, sir? 18 to you." What did he say to Tell me what he said 19 He being Guevara. 20 "Answer: I think that day I 21 was mad. I was angry. My friend got 22 shot. 23 because he had reason to believe this 24 was the guy." He told me to point him out Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 146 1 2 3 4 5 Do you remember being asked those questions and giving those answers? A. Yeah. If that's what it says there, then, yeah, I did say that, you know? Q. Now, did Guevara ever physically make 6 you, or do anything to pick out the photograph of 7 Thomas Sierra? 8 A. Physically, no. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. No, not that I -- no, I don't think -- 11 Did he ever threaten you? I don't think he -- no, he never threatened me. 12 Q. Did he yell at you at all? 13 A. I can't remember. 14 15 But no, I don't think so. Q. Did he ever say anything to you like 16 you have pick this picture out, this picture of 17 Thomas Sierra? 18 A. I can't remember. 19 Q. Did Guevara ever tell you why he 20 thought Thomas Sierra was the one that killed your 21 friend Nuni? 22 A. He never told me why -- why he thought 23 it was him, no, that I could recall. 24 remember him telling me anything like that. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 I can't Page 147 1 Q. And you remember testifying in front of 2 the jury in the Thomas Sierra case and telling the 3 jury what it is that you're telling me, that 4 Guevara had this photograph and he wanted you to 5 pick the one that he had in his hand? 6 A. He had a picture in his hand. 7 Q. And you told that to the jury, correct? 8 A. If it's there, that's what I told them, Q. You also said that you went in and 9 10 yeah. 11 looked at a -- that day you went and looked at a 12 car as well. 13 14 A. Yeah. They took me to the parking lot to look at a car. 15 Q. And who is "they"? 16 A. The detective over there, I guess. 17 don't know -- I can't remember who walked me 18 downstairs, who was talking to me. 19 remember. 20 21 Q. Was it Guevara? I can't Was he one of the ones that -- 22 A. I can't remember. 23 Q. You don't remember whether it was 24 Guevara who was -- Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 I Page 148 1 A. I can't remember who it was. I just 2 remember going down, looking at a car, and -- you 3 know, they took me to look at a car. 4 5 Q. Okay. And where did they take you specifically to look at the car? 6 A. I want to say it was in the parking lot. 7 Q. Of Area 5? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. All right. 10 A. I mean, they got one in the back, one 11 in the front. 12 the front or in the back, you know? 13 remember taking to look at a car. 14 Q. And I can't remember if it was in And this is the general parking lot for 15 the police station, correct? 16 special parking lot for -- 17 A. I just It's not like a They got two parking lot. They got one 18 in the back for the police and one in the front for 19 people that go to court. 20 I don't remember if it was in front 21 they took me to. 22 back. 23 24 Q. Okay. I don't remember if it was in the And do you remember how many officers accompanied you? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 149 1 A. I can't remember that. 2 Q. Do you remember whether Alberto was 3 with you when you went and looked at the car, or 4 looked for the car? 5 A. 6 was there. 7 remember. 8 9 10 Q. be looking at a car? A. I mean, yeah, they told me, we want you to look at this car, and that's it. We went to the back, or to the front. I can't remember which one it was. 17 18 Prior to looking at the car, did the Did you know that you were going to 15 16 I can't we're going to go out and look at a car? 13 14 He could have been there. officers -- or did anybody tell you, you know, 11 12 I don't -- I don't remember if Alberto They took me down to look at a car. Q. Okay. And when you got out there in 19 the parking lot, regardless of which parking lot 20 you went to, how many cars were in the parking lot 21 when you got there? 22 23 24 A. I can't -- I can't recall that. can't tell you how many cars were out there. Q. Was there more than one car? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 I Page 150 1 A. Could have been. 2 Q. Were there more than 50 cars? 3 A. I don't know. 4 I can't -- I wasn't counting, you know? 5 Q. Okay. Do you remember feeling like 6 there was a lot of cars back there, or not a lot of 7 cars? 8 9 10 A. I can't -- I can't remember that. can't -- you know? I I can't tell you how many cars were in the parking lot. It was a parking lot. 11 So -- I ain't blowing -- you know? 12 Like if you're looking for a 13 specific number, I can't tell you, you know? 14 Because I don't know how many cars were out there. 15 16 17 Q. I'm not asking you to, like, tell me a specific number of cars. A. There could have been more cars there. 18 19 20 21 There could have been more. could have been less. Q. Okay. 24 There I can't remember. Now, did you look at a specific car when you were out there? 22 23 I'm asking whether -- Do you remember doing that? A. Park Avenue. I mean, they took me to a car, a black They took me to look at a black Park Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 151 1 Avenue. 2 Q. So "they" being the police? 3 A. Yeah, whoever took me from upstairs 4 downstairs to look at the car, they took me to look 5 at a Park Avenue. 6 Q. Did they point out the car, or did they 7 say, here's the parking lot, do you see the car 8 here? 9 10 11 12 A. No. They took me to a car. me to look at that car. Q. Okay. So they specifically pointed out a car for you to look at? 13 A. 14 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 15 They told I mean -Objection. Asked and answered. 16 MR. GRILL: 17 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to clarify this. There is a car out there, a 18 Park Avenue they took me to look at. 19 the Park Avenue, you know? 20 BY MR. GRILL: I looked at 21 Q. And did you recognize this vehicle? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Okay. 24 Did they tell you anything about this car, the police? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 152 1 2 Prior to you looking at it, did they tell you anything about this car? 3 A. That I could remember, no. 4 Q. Did they tell you why they wanted you 5 I mean ... to look at this car? 6 A. They could have been -- it could have 7 been because they believed that was the car, you 8 know? It could have been because of that, but ... 9 Q. 10 the car? 11 A. They didn't tell you whether this was I don't know. I don't remember the 12 questions they were asking me that day. 13 tell you what they were asking me, what they were 14 telling me. 15 16 I can't remember, you know? All I know, I went to look at a car when I came from upstairs to the parking lot. 17 18 I can't I went to look at a car. Q. Did any of the officers make any -- do 19 you have a recollection of any officer making any 20 statement to you along the lines of this is the car 21 we believe was involved in the shooting? 22 A. I can't remember if they told me -- I 23 can't remember what they told me that day, like as 24 far as the car being the car, and -- no, I can't Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 153 1 remember them telling me anything. 2 They told me to look at the car, you 3 know? And I looked at the car. 4 when I looked at this car, this car don't got no 5 rims, don't got no tint on it, so to me it looked 6 different. 7 And, you know, It didn't look, you know, like the 8 car that -- that they -- if they were trying to get 9 me to, you know, like, to say it was the same 10 car -- I'm not saying they said it's the same -- 11 same car, but to see if it was the same car, I told 12 him, no, because it didn't have no tints and didn't 13 have no rims on it. 14 15 Q. So you essentially told the police you didn't recognize this vehicle? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Okay. I didn't recognize the vehicle. Did any officer out there try to 18 convince you in any way that it was the right 19 car -- 20 A. No. 21 Q. -- the car that was involved in the 22 I don't remember. shooting? 23 A. No, I can't remember that. 24 Q. You can't remember, or do you not think Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 154 1 anything like that happened? 2 A. I can't remember. I mean, I can't 3 remember what that -- like I'm telling you, I can't 4 remember everything they were talking to me about 5 that day. 6 It's been so long. And, like I said, I just somehow 7 trying to get on my -- you know? 8 to think about this no more. 9 10 Q. Okay. Sure. Okay. I don't even try Now, after you viewed the car -- strike that question. 11 Was there anything about this car in 12 the parking lot that was similar to the vehicle 13 that you saw next to you that shot at your vehicle? 14 15 A. The only thing, they -- they -- like they told me that was same thing, was the color. 16 It was black. 17 Q. Was it like a Park Avenue type of car? 18 A. It could have been a Park Avenue; it 19 could have been a LeSabre. I wasn't looking -- I 20 knew it was a Buick, but I didn't know what type of 21 model car it was, you know? 22 same. They both look the They look -- LeSabre -- like I told you -- 23 Q. I understand. 24 A. -- this car, when I looked at it, it Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 155 1 didn't have tints and it didn't have rims. 2 So to me, it wasn't the car. 3 Q. Okay. And the car in the police 4 parking lot also had rims of some sort, non- 5 manufacturer type wheels, like custom wheels on it, 6 correct? 7 A. 8 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 9 No, it didn't have -Objection -- objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: It didn't have -- it didn't 11 have rims. It have factory rims, you know? 12 like I said, it didn't have tints. 13 car, you know? 14 had the shooting. 16 BY MR. GRILL: 17 Q. 21 Now after viewing the car, do you remember speaking with a State's Attorney? 19 20 It was just a And to me, it wasn't the car they 15 18 And, A. I can't say I did, and I can't say I don't. Q. Okay. Do you remember speaking with 22 Detective Guevara and giving a handwritten 23 statement, or signing a handwritten statement? 24 A. I don't remember. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 156 1 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 2 MR. GRILL: 3 Just can you note -- CPD 1055 through CPD 1057. (Deposition Exhibit No. 1, 4 Witness MELENDEZ, was marked 5 for identification 06/30/2014.) 6 7 8 BY MR. GRILL: Q. Mr. Melendez, I'm handing you what's been marked as Melendez Exhibit No. 1. 9 I'd ask you look at all three pages 10 of those briefly. 11 ask you if you recognize this document that I'm 12 showing you. 13 14 15 16 A. And, after you do that, I would I mean, no. I mean, I don't recognize -- I see it's got my name on it. Q. It has your name at the top printed, José M. Melendez, correct? 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. But at the bottom left-hand corner on 19 the page CPD 1055, so on the first page you have 20 there, do you see a cursive handwritten name, Jos 21 Melendez? Do you see that? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. And I would ask you to flip to CPD 1056 24 Could be my signature, yeah. on the next page, and in the bottom left-hand Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 157 1 corner, José Melendez handwritten in cursive. 2 3 Do you see that name there, on the very bottom? 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. Yes? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. Is that your signature as well? And then again, next page, 10 bottom left-hand corner, CPD 1057, do you see the 11 name José Melendez again in the very bottom left- 12 hand corner? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. Is that your signature? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. And then again José Melendez signed 17 directly above the name Detective, and it looks 18 like Rey Guevara, and ASA W. P. Farrell. 19 20 Do you see where it says Jos Melendez above those two names? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. Is that your signature there as well? 23 A. Should be my signature, yeah. 24 Q. Okay. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. Now, Mr. Melendez, on the top of 312.781.9586 Page 158 1 page 1057, so the page you have in front of you 2 right there, in the first full paragraph that 3 begins with "José Melendez states" -- do you see 4 that? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. Okay. On that second line next to the 7 word "May," you see a 25 that's crossed out, and 8 then the number 30 written in above that, correct? 9 Do you see that? 10 A. Yeah, I see it. 11 Q. Next to that you see two initials -- 12 several sets of initials, the middle of which is 13 the letters "JM." 14 15 16 17 A. Are those your initials? I don't know. I don't know where you're talking about. Q. Right there. Are those your initials right there? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. You don't know if those are your 20 initials? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Okay. If you go further down that 23 line, you see at the end it says "his home," and 24 that's crossed out? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 159 1 A. His what? 2 Q. "Home," crossed out, right here. 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Do you see that? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. And above that it says Area 5 V.C. 7 Do you see that? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. And next to that there's three sets of 10 initials, the middle of which is cursive written 11 "JM." 12 Are those your initials? 13 A. It could be, yes. 14 Q. Okay. 15 So you believe that you signed those initials right there, "JM"? 16 A. Yeah, I could have. 17 Q. Mr. Melendez, after having looked at 18 this statement, do you remember signing your name 19 to this handwritten statement dated May 30th, 1995, 20 at 2040 hours? 21 A. 22 23 24 If you're saying I remember? don't remember. Q. No, I But it looks like my initials. Okay. What do you remember about giving this statement? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 160 1 A. I don't remember nothing about this, 2 you know? 3 to get me to go back so far. 4 know? 5 man. 6 Like I said, I -- you know, you trying I don't remember, you Half of this stuff I don't even remember, Q. Okay. Well, do you remember at all 7 speaking with a detective and a State's Attorney on 8 May 30th, 1995, after -- sometime after you viewed 9 the photo lineup at Area 5? 10 A. No, I don't remember. 11 12 13 But, I mean, you got these papers here, so obviously I did talk to them. Q. Okay. I want to run through this 14 statement with you and see -- ask you a couple 15 questions about it. 16 Okay? The first thing I want to ask you 17 here is if you look at the body of the statement, 18 the actual narrative portion of it, do you 19 recognize that as your handwriting or not? 20 A. Where? 21 Q. This whole -- 22 A. This writing? 23 Q. Yes, this whole thing. 24 A. No. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 161 1 Q. Okay. Do you know who wrote this 2 statement out? 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. You don't know, sitting here today, who 5 wrote this up? 6 A. No. 7 Q. And sitting here today, you don't have 8 really any recollection of having given a 9 statement, but you believe that you did because 10 your signature appears on it? 11 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 12 THE WITNESS: 13 MR. GRILL: 14 THE WITNESS: 15 I wrote this? 16 BY MR. GRILL: 17 18 Q. Objection to form. I mean -I'll withdraw the question. You're saying -- you're saying No, I didn't write this. You don't have to answer. have to answer. 19 You don't I'm going to withdraw the question. Do you remember after -- or, you 20 know, after giving the photo lineup, giving another 21 account, or a statement, to anybody at the police 22 station about what it was that you saw the night 23 Nuni was shot? 24 A. I can't remember. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 162 1 Q. Okay. But you believe that it's likely 2 that you did give some statement because there is 3 this statement that I've shown you that's Exhibit 1 4 and you've signed it? 5 6 MR. SWAMINATHAN: form and foundation. 7 THE WITNESS: 8 that. 9 BY MR. GRILL: 10 Objection -- objection to Q. I don't know. I can't remember Does viewing Melendez Exhibit 1 that's 11 sitting in front of you refresh your recollection 12 at all as to whether or not you gave a statement? 13 A. No. 14 Q. It does not refresh your recollection? 15 A. No. 16 to say -- yeah, that looks like my signature. 17 18 19 But, I mean, like, if you want me But I don't remember all this stuff. I don't remember it, you know? Q. I understand. Well, then I will run 20 through this statement with you and ask you whether 21 or not -- whether the things that are contained in 22 here are true or false, okay? 23 24 Can you do that with me? we should be almost done. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. Okay? 312.781.9586 And then Page 163 1 A. All right. 2 Q. All right. So I'm going to start at 3 the beginning, and my questions to all these is 4 going to be this: 5 telling the police the information that is 6 contained in this statement. 7 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 8 Whether or not you remember Okay? Just a quick note before you start. 9 I think you just said a moment ago 10 that you're going to ask him whether the 11 information is true or not true. 12 saying you're going to ask him whether he remembers 13 saying that to the police. 14 MR. GRILL: 15 16 17 But here you're That's a good point. Thank you for the distinction. BY MR. GRILL: Q. Mr. Melendez, I'm going to ask you 18 whether or not the information that's contained in 19 the statement is true or false. 20 So -- all right. 21 Do you remember telling the -- do Okay? Okay. 22 you remember whether or not this is true, that 23 you're 26 years old as of May 30th, 1995, and lived 24 at that time at 1742 West Division Street in Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 164 1 Chicago? 2 A. Was that true or false? I mean, I lived at 1742 Division, yeah. 3 I lived there before, yeah. 4 Q. Is it true at the time, that as of 5 May 30th, 1995, you could speak, read, and write 6 English? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Is it true that on May 23rd, 1995 -- so 9 the day that Nuni was shot -- you drove to your 10 friend Alberto Rodriguez' house, located at 2717 11 North Hoyne, to pick him up? 12 A. I drove to Alberto's house, but I 13 don't -- I don't know if that's his address or 14 what. 15 16 I know I drove to the Lathrop project home. Q. You don't remember today whether or not that that's his address? 17 A. No. I never knew his address. 18 Q. Did you remember -- or is it true or 19 false that you arrived at Alberto's house at 20 approximately 10:00 p.m. on the day that Nuni was 21 shot? 22 A. I can't remember that. 23 Q. Okay. 24 But is it true that you did pick up Alberto at his home? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 165 1 A. Yeah, I went to Alberto's house. 2 Q. And it's also true that you picked up 3 Noel Andujar, also known as Nuni, correct? 4 A. Yeah. 5 picked him up. 6 Q. He was in the car, yeah. I Is it true that you and Alberto and 7 Noel began driving towards Noel Andujar's 8 girlfriend's house at Kedzie and Armitage Streets 9 after picking him up? 10 A. It could have been true that we were 11 driving there. 12 Q. Is it true that, as you approached the 13 stop sign at Milwaukee Avenue and Logan Boulevard, 14 you noticed a black Park Avenue sedan waiting at 15 the stop sign, occupied by one male black in the 16 back seat and two male Hispanics in the front seat? 17 18 A. As I was driving to the stop sign, you saying? 19 Q. I can ask it again if you'd like. 20 A. Okay. Go ahead. 21 Q. Okay. Is it true that, as you 22 approached the stop sign at Milwaukee Avenue and 23 Logan Boulevard, you noticed a black Park Avenue 24 sedan waiting at the stop sign? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 166 1 2 Is that true or false? A. He wasn't at the stop sign when I got 3 to the stop sign. 4 in front of me the whole time. 5 6 7 8 9 Q. He was driving. He was driving That's what ... But he was right around in the vicinity of the stop sign? A. He could have been around the stop sign, yeah. Q. And is it true that that vehicle was 10 occupied by one male black in the back seat and two 11 male Hispanics in the front seat? 12 A. 13 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 14 It could be true, yeah. I'm just going to note an objection to asked and answered to these questions. 15 I think the way these questions are 16 being asked and the answering, we're essentially 17 asking him to testify about something he has now 18 testified to three or four times already in this 19 deposition. 20 MR. GRILL: And I'm specifically asking him 21 whether the information that's contained in this 22 written statement, which bears his signature, which 23 he does not remember necessarily making, but 24 specifically whether the information that's Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 167 1 contained in the statement is true. 2 BY MR. GRILL: 3 Q. Is it true that, José, that you pulled 4 up next to the black Park Avenue sedan and looked 5 at it? Is that true? 6 A. I pulled up next to it? 7 Q. Um-hum. 8 A. I didn't pull up next to it. 9 He probably slowed down. 10 11 Q. next to the black Park Avenue? 12 13 So you caught up and eventually were A. To the black car, yeah. To the black Q. And you looked at -- is it true that car. 14 15 you looked at the passenger sitting in the front 16 passenger seat and saw the passenger throwing a 17 gang sign, or throwing down the crown? 18 A. 19 up gang signs. 20 you know, he could have been representing 21 something, I mean. 22 Q. I told you earlier that he was throwing He could have been throwing up -- Okay. And is it true that you knew the 23 passenger's actions to be gang symbols, or gang 24 signs? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 168 1 2 A. I mean, the passenger's -- yeah, it was gang stuff. 3 Q. Is it true that you began to drive 4 away, and the black Park Avenue followed on your 5 left-hand side? 6 A. Drive away? 7 Q. Yeah, that you drove -- you know, 8 kept -- 9 10 A. I wasn't driving away. I was driving towards the neighborhood. 11 Q. And is it true that the black Park 12 Avenue followed you around the monument on your 13 left? 14 A. He was in front of me, turning the same 15 way as I was turning. 16 way. 17 of me. 18 They were going the same He wasn't following me, but he was in front Q. Is it true that you continued to look 19 at the car and its occupants -- and the occupants 20 of the vehicle that was to your left? 21 A. Yeah. I looked at them, yeah. 22 Q. And is it true that you saw the 23 passenger pull up a white hood over his head and 24 open the door? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 169 1 2 A. I can't -- I can't remember, but -- I can't remember, you know. 3 Q. Okay. Is it true that you began to 4 accelerate and saw the passenger in the Park Avenue 5 shooting at your car? 6 A. That I began to accelerate? No. Like 7 I said, he -- whoever it was opened the door, you 8 know. 9 I accelerated, in my time of taking off, so ... 10 The -- when I tried to take off, that's when Q. But at some point you did accelerate, 11 and the passenger in the Park Avenue was shooting 12 at your car, correct? 13 A. When I was leaving. When I turned -- 14 when I turned on Wrightwood, that's when they 15 started shooting, when I tried to get away from the 16 car. 17 18 Q. Okay. And the shooter was, again, the passenger? 19 A. Yeah. Had to be, yeah. 20 Q. Okay. Is it true that you turned right 21 on Kimball, and the Park Avenue continued down 22 Wrightwood? 23 24 A. It could be -- could have -- it could have been like that, yeah. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 170 1 2 Q. And you see right next to there, again, the word "Kedzie" is crossed out, and the initials? 3 A. Wrightwood. 4 Q. Yes. 5 And then to next to that is -- down below that, "JM" in cursive? 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. Do you see that? 8 And those are your initials, correct? 9 A. Yeah, could be my initials. 10 Q. Like you actually wrote those initials? 11 12 That's your signature? You recognize it? 13 A. 14 be mine. 15 Q. Yeah, if it's there, yeah, it's got to Okay. Is it true that you then -- that 16 you then found out that your friend Noel Andujar 17 had been shot in the head; is that true? 18 A. Yeah, after all the shots, and Nuni 19 told me -- I mean, Titi told me they were shot, 20 yeah, that's when I found out he was shot in the 21 back of the head. 22 23 24 Q. Okay. Is it true that you saw a photo lineup of six photos on May 30th, 1995, at Area 5? Is that true or false? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 171 1 2 3 4 5 A. I seen photos. I can't tell you how many were there. Q. Okay. But is it true that you saw a lineup of photographs on May 30th, 1995, at Area 5? A. I can't -- I can't tell you what day I 6 saw them, because I don't remember. 7 here; that's what it says here, you know? 8 9 Q. I mean, it's You believe that this is an accurate -- strike that question. 10 Is it true that you picked out the 11 man you saw shooting at him, and his car, on 12 May 23rd, 1995, in those photos? 13 A. Like I said earlier, man, you know, I 14 can't tell you this guy was the shooter. 15 seen the shooter's face, you know? 16 I never Like I was too busy looking at his 17 hand, you know? 18 only reason I thought it was this dude was because, 19 you know, the detective told me they think this is 20 the guy. 21 Q. 22 23 24 Just -- like I said, you know, the And so I pointed him out, you know? So it's true that you picked out the man that was shooting -- well, strike that question. And is it true that the man that you picked out in the photos was later identified as Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 172 1 Thomas Sierra? 2 A. 3 Thomas Sierra. 4 Q. Yeah. It was later identified, yeah, Is it true that you saw a lineup, a 5 physical lineup, on May 30th, 1995, and you picked 6 out the same person that you shot -- that you 7 picked out in the photographs? 8 A. I can't remember that. 9 Q. You can't remember what? 10 A. I don't remember a lineup like that. 11 12 But, I mean, if it's there, it's there, I guess, right? 13 Q. So sitting here today, you don't have 14 any recollection of actually viewing a physical 15 lineup? 16 A. I can't remember. 17 Q. But because the documents that I'm 18 showing you that's marked as Melendez 1 indicate 19 that you did see a lineup on May 30th, 1995 -- 20 21 22 23 24 A. So I figure I did. I guess I did, right? Q. Now, is it true that you were treated well by the police? MR. SWAMINATHAN: Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. Objection to form. 312.781.9586 Page 173 1 2 BY MR. GRILL: Q. On -- specifically during your 3 interactions with them on May 23rd, and then again 4 on May 30th when you viewed the lineups. 5 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 6 THE WITNESS: 7 I mean, they asked me questions. tried to answer as best I can. 10 11 14 I That was it. They asked me questions. After I answered the questions, that was it. 12 13 I mean, what you mean, I was treated well? 8 9 Objection to form. I mean, like -- I tell you, man ... BY MR. GRILL: Q. And during your time at the police 15 station during any of these interviews, you were 16 never threatened by any police officer, correct? 17 A. Not that I can recall. 18 Q. And they never beat you up or -- 19 A. No. 20 Q. -- roughed you up or pushed you around, 21 correct? 22 A. No. 23 Q. They never told you who you had to pick 24 out, correct? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 174 1 2 A. No. He told me he believed this was the guy that did the shooting. 3 That's all I can tell you -- 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. -- and that I could remember, that he 6 had the picture in his hand. 7 And that's it, you know? I mean ... 8 Q. 9 correct? 10 A. Threatened? 11 Q. You were never told anything along the 12 You were never threatened, though, No, I wasn't threatened. lines of you had to identify Thomas Sierra, correct? 13 A. That I could recall, no. 14 Q. And do you have any recollection of 15 being mistreated in any way by any Assistant 16 State's Attorney that may have shown up that day? 17 A. 18 Attorney, man. 19 was. 20 21 22 23 24 Q. I don't even remember the State's I don't even remember who that dude Were you made any promises in exchange for your identification in this case? A. remember it. I can't remember nothing, man. Q. I can't I can't -- I don't remember. And is it true that at the time you Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 175 1 spoke with the police on May 30th, 1995, that you 2 were not under the influence of any drugs or 3 alcohol? 4 A. Can you ask me the question again? 5 Q. Yes. Is it true that, when you spoke 6 with the police and, for example, viewed the photo 7 lineup and the physical lineup, or the car for that 8 matter, that you were not under the influence of 9 any drugs or alcohol at the time you gave the 10 statement? 11 A. No, man, I can't tell you that this was 12 the same day that -- that this happened. 13 you that day I was smoking weed. 14 you know, if it was a different day. I told So I don't know, 15 Q. Well, this is -- go ahead. 16 A. And at that time, I smoked weed, you 17 know? 18 don't know, you know? 19 there, if I was under the influence or not, you 20 know. 21 22 That's all I did, was smoke weed. I don't know, when I went I don't know. Q. So I All right. I can't remember. You understand that this document is dated May 30th, 1995, correct? 23 A. I mean ... 24 Q. And that's the day that, at least, that Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 176 1 2 3 it says at the top, correct? A. I mean, if that says something about May 30th somewhere in here -- 4 Q. At the very top of the first page. 5 A. That's what it says there. 6 Q. And you understand or agree that Nuni 7 8 9 10 was shot on May 23rd, so a week before, correct? A. I mean, if that's what the paper says, I guess that's the day. I don't -- I mean, you know -- 11 Q. Sure. 12 A. -- like, as far as the date, if you was 13 to ask me to tell you the date, I probably wouldn't 14 even have been able to tell you the date, you know. 15 Q. Sure. Do you have any reason to 16 dispute the date that's listed on here as the date 17 of this statement? 18 A. I don't know. I mean, if that's the 19 day he got murdered, that's the day he got 20 murdered. 21 Q. I can't tell you the day, you know? And if this document says that you gave 22 a statement on May 30th, 1995, you would agree that 23 you gave a statement on May 30th, 1995? 24 A. I mean, it's got my initials on it, Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 177 1 2 yeah. I mean ... Q. And is it true that you read this 3 entire statement that's before you and that you 4 made any and all corrections to the statement that 5 you deemed necessary? 6 7 8 9 10 A. I can't remember if I read it or I did -- if I just signed it. Q. I can't remember. You agree that on several occasions that I've already pointed out to you where you initialed -- 11 A. Yeah, I see initials. 12 Q. -- that you made corrections at those 13 locations, correct? 14 A. Say the question again? 15 Q. You agree that on several occasions -- 16 for example, starting on the second page at the 17 bottom, there's a word that's crossed out, and 18 other words written in, and then your initials 19 appear next to that correction, right? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. And again on the third page, CPD 1057, 22 there appear at another location where there's a 23 word crossed out and your initials, correct? 24 A. Yes. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 178 1 Q. 2 correct? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. And corrections that you appear to have 5 And those appear to be corrections, Appear to be corrections, yeah. initialed yourself, correct? 6 A. Yeah, I guess. 7 Q. Do you remember telling anybody between 8 May 30th, 1995, and -- well, strike that question. 9 At the time that you spoke with the 10 police about what it was that you observed the 11 night that Nuni was shot, do you remember telling 12 any police officer that you didn't -- you didn't 13 see who shot Nuni, that you can't identify the 14 shooter? 15 A. I can't recall that. 16 Q. Okay. Do you remember speaking to 17 anybody, after you viewed the photo lineup, that 18 you can't identify who shot Nuni? 19 A. 20 21 I can't recall that, either. Can't remember none of that. Q. Did you ever speak with Alberto 22 Rodriguez about your interviews with the police 23 about -- 24 A. I can't recall, that either. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 179 1 Q. Is it possible that you spoke with 2 Alberto? 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. Did you speak, or were you -- did you 5 maintain contact with Alberto throughout the 6 criminal investigation up until the time that you 7 testified in the criminal trial? 8 9 Did you see Alberto? A. No. I -- I was -- after this happened, 10 I was locked up for two years. So I didn't get -- 11 I didn't keep -- I didn't talk to no one, Alberto 12 or -- none of that. I was locked up. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. I believe the month after this, I ended 15 up catching that. They put a murder on me, and I 16 ended up being locked up for two years. 17 ain't talked to nobody ever since that. 18 Q. All right. 19 A. And so I can't recall. 20 21 you who I talked to. Q. Okay. And I I can't tell I don't remember, you know? I'm just going to run through a 22 list of names real quick, and then we should be 23 done -- or I'm going to be done. 24 don't know if the other attorneys have any followup Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 And then -- I Page 180 1 questions for you. 2 José, pretty much I just want you to 3 tell me if you recognize any of these names. 4 if so, I'll ask you, you know, how -- who you 5 recognize the person to be. 6 And, Okay? Do you know a person by the name of 7 Nelson Rivera? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Do you know a person by the name of 10 Jacques, also known as Ace, Rivera? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you know a person named Santos 13 Flores? 14 A. No. I mean, as far as you telling me 15 if I remember Jacques, I know a guy named Ace. 16 mean, yeah, I know him. 17 But as far as his name, I never knew 18 his real name. 19 Q. 20 23 24 What gangs did you know Ace to be a member of. 21 22 I A. mean. Well, I mean, Ace was one of my guys, I He was a King, but ... Q. Do you know what faction of the Kings he was in? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 181 1 A. No. 2 Q. Okay. 3 I can't remember. 4 5 6 And who did you know Ace to be? Like -- I believe you said he's one of your guys. A. What do you mean by that? He was just one of the guys. I mean, from the neighborhood. 7 Q. Okay. Did you hang around with Ace? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did you ever socialize with him, ever? 10 A. No. I mean, I knew him -- I mean, we 11 all know each other, man. 12 saying? 13 14 15 Q. You know what I'm But as far as hanging out and all that, no. Okay. When is the last time you think you had contact with Ace? A. I ain't talked to Ace in a long time. 16 And I can't tell you date, because -- you know? 17 don't even think I hung around with him like that. 18 19 20 I just knew him. Q. Do you know whether he held any position of rank or authority in the Latin King? 21 A. No, I don't remember none of that. 22 Q. Do you know a person by the name of 23 24 David Rivera? A. No. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 I Page 182 1 Q. Gloria Ortiz? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Juan Johnson? 4 A. Unh-unh. 5 Q. Also known as Big Juan, Don Juan? 6 A. If this is the -- I got a cousin that's 7 probably married to his brother, you know? 8 Ace -- I mean from Potomac and Artesian. 9 That's My cousin married to his brother. 10 Q. What's your cousin's name? 11 A. I can't even remember her name, man. 12 Q. It's a girl? 13 A. This is from my father's side, and I 14 never, like, really met my father's side of the 15 family. 16 got to meet him. 17 and I never kept up with his side of the family. 18 19 Q. My father died a long time ago. I never I was a month old when he died, Is this cousin, though -- do you know whether this cousin still lives in Chicago? 20 A. Whose cousin? 21 Q. The cousin that married Don Juan, Juan 22 My cousin? Johnson, the person we're talking about. 23 A. I don't know where she's living. 24 Q. Okay. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. Do you know Henry Johnson? 312.781.9586 Page 183 1 A. That would be dude's brother, right? 2 Q. Um-hum. 3 A. I mean, I've seen them. These were -- 4 these were -- these was the guys I used to fight 5 against, you know? 6 we're in the neighborhood, you know, how we came at 7 each other before, you know? As far as -- you know, when 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. But I didn't know these guys until one 10 time I ended up talking to my cousin one day, and 11 she told me she was married to Henry. 12 13 But as far as that, I don't know if she was married to him or not like that. 14 Q. She was married to Henry or to Juan? 15 A. To Henry. 16 Q. To Henry. 17 18 19 20 Okay. And you said you used to fight Juan and Henry? A. I mean, we -- yeah, we had our fight in Clemente Field, you know, there. 21 Q. Do you know what gang they were in? 22 A. They were Cobras. 23 Q. Juan and Henry, you believe they were 24 both Cobras? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 184 1 A. Yeah, I believe -- yeah. 2 Henry -- I didn't know him, you 3 know? I just knew Juan, because I got into it with 4 him one time, but ... 5 Q. Do you remember what Juan looks like? 6 A. A big fat dude. And that's all I could 7 tell you. 8 I ain't seen that guy in a long time. 9 Q. I don't know if he's skinny or what now. Did you ever hear about him getting 10 charged with murder, Juan getting charged with a 11 murder? 12 A. Yeah, I believe already he had got 13 charged with a murder before. 14 know, like I said, I don't talk to that dude. 15 So I don't know. 16 Q. But as far as -- you And I'm just kind of really asking like 17 what rumors or things like that that you've heard. 18 I mean -- 19 A. No. I mean, that he got charged with a 20 murder. I mean, you hear stuff like that in the 21 neighborhood; hey, this guy got charged, this guy 22 got charged with that. 23 But as far as, you know, who and 24 what -- I can't tell you none of that because I Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 185 1 don't know. I don't talk to them, you know. 2 3 Like I said we, used to fight. Q. Did you ever hear who it was that -- 4 the name of the person he was accused of having 5 killed? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did you ever hear any rumors about 8 I can't remember that. whether Juan actually did it, or anything like that? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you know a person by the name of 11 Felix Valentin? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you know a guy by the name of 14 Michael Velez, also known as Rico? 15 A. No. 16 Q. David Colon, also known as Mallow? 17 Do you know that person? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you know a guy named Samuel Perez, 20 also known as Spanky? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Salvador Ortiz, do you know him? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Juan Delgado, also known as Juanchi? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 186 1 A. No. 2 Q. Edwin Davila? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Ivar Velasquo? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Michael Ybarra? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Joseph Medezianowski, do you know him? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Julio Sanchez, also known as Too Small? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Efrain Sanchez? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Lekisha Rivera? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Robert Ruiz? 17 A. No. 18 Q. José Reyes, also know as Papito? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Armando Mendez, also known as Player E? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Guillermo Vasquez, also known as Memo? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Edwin Gomez, also known as Woody? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 187 1 A. No. 2 Q. Do you know a person by the name of 3 Wilfredo Rosario, also known as Bear? 4 He was a Latin King. 5 A. No. 6 Q. Doesn't ring a bell at all? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Okay. 9 Ismael Rivera, also known as Bandit? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Xavier Arcos, also known as Chino? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Rudy Martinez? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Orlando Guirola? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Okay. Those are all the names. Let me 18 just double check, see if there's anything I left 19 out, and I should be done. 20 21 Were you ever incarcerated at any point with Thomas Sierra that you know of? 22 A. I mean, our cases were about the same 23 time, so I could have been. 24 know. I never seen him. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. But I don't -- you I never ran into him. 312.781.9586 Page 188 1 Q. Which cases? 2 A. I mean his case was in '95. 3 My case was a month after that. 4 And in '96, I believe -- if this 5 was -- you know? -- we had to be in the same place 6 at the same time. 7 8 But, you know, like as far as me seeing him or not, no, I don't know, you know? 9 I believe I was in the County, you 10 know, and -- you know, we weren't -- we had to be 11 there at the same time, because my case wasn't even 12 that far from his case, you know? 13 14 But as far as seeing him, I never seen him; never ran into him. 15 16 Q. Cook County Jail with him? 17 18 You believe you were just in A. Yeah. We were probably just in the County at around the same time. 19 Q. Were you ever in an IDOC facility with 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you know if anybody, Thomas Sierra 20 him? 23 himself or anybody acting on his behalf, has ever 24 tried to reach out to you or talk to you in any way Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 189 1 about what it was that you saw on the day Nuni was 2 shot? 3 A. No. I can't remember. 4 Q. Has anyone -- when you say you don't 5 recall, is it possible that somebody on -- acting 6 on Tom Sierra's behalf, or himself, has ever tried 7 to reach out with you and discuss what things you 8 saw that night? 9 A. No. 10 Q. No, that's never happened? 11 A. No -- no, I can't recall none of that 12 stuff. 13 Q. Okay. Well, my question is, then, is 14 it possible that that could have happened, if you 15 can't recall? 16 17 18 A. not. I can't recall if it was possible or I don't know. Q. Has anybody in any capacity ever 19 reached out with you in an effort to get you to 20 change your testimony or what it was that you saw 21 that night that Nuni was shot? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Okay. 24 Have you ever discussed at any point what it was that you saw that night with Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 190 1 Alberto Rodriguez? 2 A. No. No. I mean, he was there himself, 3 so, you know, whatever he saw, he saw. 4 saw, I saw. 5 compare stories with him. 6 7 Q. 9 You know, I didn't sit there and Sure. You know what I'm saying? Do you think Alberto is a pretty truthful person? 8 Whatever I I mean, would you trust him? MR. SWAMINATHAN: Objection to form. BY MR. GRILL: 10 Q. Based on your experience with him. 11 He's one of your friends. 12 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 13 THE WITNESS: Objection to form. I mean, I don't know. I can't 14 tell you what a person -- a person is capable of 15 doing, so I don't know. 16 He's his own person. 17 person. 18 BY MR. GRILL: 19 I'm my own You know what I'm saying. Q. Okay. And sitting here today, do you 20 have any idea what Alberto may have told the police 21 as far as what it was that he saw? 22 A. 23 MR. GRILL: 24 else. No. I can't tell you. I'm done. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. All right. I've got nothing If anybody else has any 312.781.9586 Page 191 1 2 3 4 followup ... MR. CARNES: The City has no questions at this time. MR. SWAMINATHAN: 5 I do have some questions. It shouldn't take me more than, I'm 6 hoping, fifteen minutes or so, in that ball park. 7 One of the things I'm going to ask 8 Mr. Sierra to do -- sorry -- Mr. Melendez to do is 9 to review some of his trial testimony. 10 MR. GRILL: Sure. 11 MR. SWAMINATHAN: And I don't know if you'd 12 rather take -- or use this as an opportunity to 13 take a break. 14 your counsel if you want, and then we can come back 15 in -- I don't know if that gives you a chance to 16 eat your lunch. 17 You can review the testimony with We could do it that way. I think it's probably the most 18 efficient way for me to get through my questions, 19 to give you a chance to read the testimony. 20 know when you're done, and we can get through my 21 questions quickly. 22 THE WITNESS: 23 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 24 Let us I'll sit her and read. Why don't you take a break, and if you can get your lunch, maybe we can be able Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 192 1 to get that in here for you. 2 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 3 MR. DUTCH: 4 MR. SWAMINATHAN: Sure. 5 Okay. (Recess taken from 1:10 until 6 1:25 p.m.) 7 EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 9 Q. Are you ready, Mr. Melendez? 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. Mr. Melendez, my name is Anand 12 Swaminathan, and I represent the plaintiff, Jacques 13 Rivera, in this case. 14 Let me just say I'm sorry for your 15 loss. I understand it's a tragedy, and I'm sorry 16 that we're here asking you a lot of questions about 17 something I'm sure you wish you could put behind 18 you, but I will try to make my questions as quick 19 as possible. 20 All right. First, let me just ask you, have you 21 been contacted by the City of Chicago or any 22 officers from the City of Chicago in a lead-up to 23 this deposition? 24 A. This one in particular, not that I Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 193 1 could think. I just got papers through the mail, 2 and really I not even paying attention to that 3 because I'm trying to fight this other case. 4 5 And I didn't even want to be involved in this, man, you know? 6 Q. Did you -- did any investigator come 7 and speak with you to talk to you about your 8 deposition today, or to talk about this -- the 9 incident that we've been talking about in this 10 deposition? 11 A. No, ain't nobody ever came here to talk 12 to me. Like I told him, somebody called the house. 13 My brother told me it was an investigator. 14 15 I asked him if he got his name. He said no. 16 He just asked him more or less where 17 I was at. He told him I was in Boone County Jail, 18 and that's what he told him. 19 Q. So no one visited you here? 20 A. No. 21 Q. And did anyone send you documents to 22 review or look at in preparation for today's 23 deposition? 24 A. I don't -- I don't remember if I got -- Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 194 1 I got papers upstairs, but I don't remember if 2 they're from -- from this case, you know. 3 from a case. 4 They're But I don't know if it's this case 5 particular or what. 6 didn't even ... I just put them away. I 7 Q. Did you look at them? 8 A. Like I told -- you know, I got a change 9 of counsel. Like I told my last counsel, that I 10 don't want nothing to do with this, you know? 11 Really, I told him. 12 Q. You are not sure if those documents 13 that you got were documents that had to do with 14 your current case or some other case? 15 A. No, they weren't my current case. They 16 were a old case. 17 I ain't got them that long ago, and I still can't 18 tell you which case it is because I ain't even went 19 through them. 20 is on this other case I'm trying to -- you know. 21 22 Q. But, you know, right now, I mean, I -- you know, I got to -- my mind So whatever documents you received, you didn't review them? 23 A. Yeah, I didn't review them. 24 Q. Okay. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. You were asked some questions 312.781.9586 Page 195 1 earlier about heroin use. 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. I think it's your testimony that you 4 weren't using heroin until you were in your 5 thirties; is that right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. So you were not using heroin at the 8 time that Nuni was shot; is that right? 9 A. No. 10 Q. And you weren't using heroin at the 11 time that you testified at the trial of Thomas 12 Sierra, correct? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Okay. 15 No, meaning no, you weren't using heroin at that time? 16 A. No, I wasn't using at the time. 17 Q. I'll have you take a look at Exhibit 1. 18 I'll show that to the witness. 19 I just want to ask you, on that 20 first page of Exhibit 1, on the last paragraph of 21 that page it reads: 22 May 3rd, 1995" -- sorry. 23 24 "José Melendez states that on I'll start it again. "José Melendez states that on May 23rd, 1995, he drove to his friend Alberto Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 196 1 Rodriguez's house at 2717 North Hoyne to pick him 2 up." 3 there. I want to just ask you about that sentence 4 I think -- is it correct that you 5 testified earlier that you don't know the address 6 where Alberto Rodriguez lived? 7 8 A. Is that correct? No, I never knew that. I never knew his address. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. I just know what street he's lived on. 11 And, you know, the Lathrop Home, it ain't hard to 12 go inside, you know, and just -- I just stopped in 13 front of his grate because at the time I had a -- I 14 was seeing a girl there. 15 And I know where he lives, you know. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. But as far as his address, I didn't 18 know that he lived on -- I don't know that's his 19 address. 20 Q. 21 Okay. So you wouldn't have said that because you didn't know it, right? 22 A. No. 23 MR. GRILL: 24 MR. SWAMINATHAN: Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. Objection to form. I'll repeat that. 312.781.9586 Page 197 1 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 2 3 Q. North Hoyne because you didn't know that, correct? 4 5 A. 8 9 10 I didn't know his -- I don't know his ... 6 7 You wouldn't have said he lived at 2717 MR. GRILL: Objection to form; foundation, too. THE WITNESS: I don't know his address. BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: Q. And so would it be correct that that 11 information that is contained in this report is 12 information that is not information you told any 13 officer? Is that correct? 14 MR. GRILL: 15 THE WITNESS: Objection. Right. Because I don't know 16 his address, so how could I tell somebody 17 somebody's address that I don't know? 18 MR. GRILL: 19 THE WITNESS: 20 21 Objection; form and foundation. I don't know his address. BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: Q. And so there is information in this 22 statement that you have been given as Exhibit 1 23 that is not information that you provided? 24 MR. GRILL: Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. Objection. 312.781.9586 Form and foundation. Page 198 1 THE WITNESS: 2 knew Alberto's address. 3 know. 4 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 5 I mean, like I said, I never So how it's there, I don't I never knew his address, you know. Q. All right. Do you know if the 6 officers -- do you know if any officer told you 7 that that was his address? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Okay. I can't recall they told me that. I want to just go back to the 10 night that Nuni was shot. 11 about it a lot, but I just have a -- I want to 12 focus on one part of it. 13 And I know we've talked And actually is it correct to say 14 that you do -- you were not able to see the faces 15 of the -- strike that. 16 17 You did not see the face of the person who shot into your car; is that correct? 18 MR. GRILL: 19 THE WITNESS: 20 21 22 Objection. I didn't see his face. BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: Q. All right. You testified that the car that the shooters were in had tinted windows, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 MR. GRILL: Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. Objection. 312.781.9586 Page 199 1 2 3 4 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: Q. It was nighttime that the incident occurred; is that right? A. It was -- I don't know. 5 you if it was -- 6 MR. GRILL: 7 THE WITNESS: I can't tell Go ahead; finish your answer. I can't tell you if it was all 8 the way -- if it was -- like I told him, I couldn't 9 tell if was night-night, or was it -- you know, how 10 11 12 13 14 15 dark it was. MR. GRILL: When you say he testified, you mean at trial or today? MR. SWAMINATHAN: Fair point. BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: Q. 16 17 I don't remember, you know? And let me just it ask it this way. The car that shot at you guys was tinted? 18 A. It had tinted windows. 19 Q. Okay. 20 21 You were the driver of the vehicle that was shot into? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Okay. 24 You were driving your vehicle. When the gun was -- when you saw a door open and a gun point at your vehicle, you Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 200 1 took off driving, right? A. 2 Yeah. I turned to go towards 3 Wrightwood to get away, you know, like -- to, like, 4 kind of dodge this, you know, guy that -- you know, 5 if I see a gun, you know they're going to shoot at me. 6 So I tried to take off. Q. 7 And so I think you have also testified 8 that you were able to tell that the people in the 9 vehicle -- two of them were Hispanics and one 10 person was African-American; is that right? 11 A. Yeah. They was dark-dark, yeah. 12 Q. And so would it be correct to say that 13 under the circumstances, you were able to make out, 14 you know, sort of general colors and general 15 shapes, but you couldn't make out specific faces? A. 16 Right. They were Hispanic. And the 17 guy in the back, I assumed he was Afro American, 18 because he was darker than the two guys in the 19 front. 20 21 So to me -- he looked black to me. Q. So you could see some movement in the vehicle, right? 22 A. Yeah, you could see some movement. 23 Q. And you could see, for example, if 24 someone was making gang signs? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 You could see that? Page 201 1 2 A. Yeah, because his hand was right on the window -- 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. -- you know? 5 here. 6 that. 7 8 Like the window is right The hand is like this. Q. So you could see So you could see shapes; you could see the movement? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. But you couldn't see the faces? 11 A. No, I couldn't see at the faces. 12 MR. GRILL: I would object to form and 13 foundation to that line of questioning that you 14 just completed. 15 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 16 Q. And based on what you saw at the time, 17 you know, leading up to the shooting and during the 18 shooting, is it your best understanding that the 19 shooter was a member of the Cobras? 20 21 A. That's what -- that's what I saw him throw up, so -- 22 MR. GRILL: 23 THE WITNESS: 24 Objection. -- that's I thought he was, or that's what -- to me, if he threw up the Cobra, he Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 202 1 was a Cobra. 2 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 3 Q. And that's what it seemed like to you? 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. All right. I don't have a whole lot 6 more, but I just want to talk a little bit about 7 your trial testimony. 8 9 Mr. Melendez, you've had a chance to review your trial testimony; is that right? 10 A. 11 MR. GRILL: 12 13 Yes, I looked at it. entire transcript, or just certain pages? MR. SWAMINATHAN: 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Objection; did he review the Well, we can ask him that. But let me -- let me put a copy of it into the record so that we have it. MR. GRILL: This is his whole trial testimony? MR. SWAMINATHAN: This is his testimony, and I'll give you the Bates pages. MR. GRILL: I'm going to object to the 21 admission of the entire -- if you are going to ask 22 questions about certain parts of it, we can admit 23 those parts. 24 But unless you are going to ask him Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 203 1 about the entire thing, and we're going to walk 2 through it, I'm going to object to the admission of 3 the whole transcript. 4 MR. SWAMINATHAN: Understood. I'm going 5 to -- what I'm handing you is going to be -- we're 6 going to mark it as Exhibit 2. 7 Bluhm pages 1 through 82, and this is the trial 8 testimony of José Melendez at the Thomas Sierra 9 trial, complete trial testimony of José Melendez. 10 MR. GRILL: It's Bates stamped And I'm going to object to the 11 admissibility -- to the admission of that entire 12 exhibit. 13 (Deposition Exhibit No. 2, 14 Witness MELENDEZ, was marked 15 for identification 06/30/2014.) 16 17 18 19 20 MR. SWAMINATHAN: Well, let's give him that version now, since we've marked this one. MR. GRILL: And I would also object to -- are you refreshing this witness' recollection? MR. SWAMINATHAN: Well, let me ask my 21 questions, and then you can -- you can make any 22 objections you have. 23 24 MR. GRILL: to him first. Well, because you can't show it You got to ask him a question. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 204 1 MR. SWAMINATHAN: I haven't asked him any 2 question yet that would identify whether or not 3 this is refreshing your recollection to -- 4 5 MR. GRILL: My objection is even putting it in front of him at this point. 6 I think you got to ask him a 7 question first, and then, if he doesn't know 8 something, you can refresh his recollection. 9 10 But you can't just like throw it in at him. That's my objection. 11 You do what you want. 12 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 13 MR. GRILL: 14 15 16 Understood. Understood. All right. BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: Q. Mr. Melendez, what I've handed you is a document marked Exhibit 2. 17 All right? And I will represent that what I've 18 handed you is an exact copy of what I handed your 19 counsel just before we took a break; that is to 20 say, it is the exact same trial testimony that you 21 just reviewed. 22 So let me just ask you. 23 Have you had a chance to review your 24 trial testimony in the Thomas Sierra trial? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 205 1 MR. GRILL: 2 THE WITNESS: 3 you told me to look at. 4 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 5 6 Q. So you reviewed the pages that we had -- that I had asked you to look at? A. 8 MR. GRILL: 10 They give that to me, the pages Okay. 7 9 Objection. Yeah. Could we identify for the record which pages those were? MR. SWAMINATHAN: Pages identified included 11 205 to 218, 221 to 222, 237 to 240. 12 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 13 Q. Mr. Melendez, having had a chance to 14 review your testimony at the Thomas Sierra trial, 15 does that refresh your recollection at all about 16 the events that took place at the time of the 17 shooting and of the investigation afterwards? 18 19 20 MR. GRILL: I would object to form and foundation. THE WITNESS: I mean, I don't -- I mean, I 21 can't -- I can't remember everything off of that, 22 man, no. 23 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 24 Q. Understood. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. Is -- having had a chance 312.781.9586 Page 206 1 to review it, does it help you remember anything 2 you didn't previously remember? 3 4 Or is it basically the same as what you already remembered? 5 MR. GRILL: Objection. 6 THE WITNESS: 7 I mean ... 8 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 9 Q. It would be the same, you know? Anything you reviewed in the trial 10 testimony that you just looked at, that -- that 11 you -- that, based on your memory, is false or 12 wrong or incorrect? 13 MR. GRILL: 14 THE WITNESS: Objection. I can't -- I mean, if this is, 15 like I telling him, if this what -- what was in the 16 courtroom, then, you know, if that's what I said, 17 that's what I said. 18 I can't remember all that. 19 been a long time. 20 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 21 I can't remember, you know. Q. It's Was there anything that you've looked 22 at when you -- when you just read this trial 23 testimony, was there anything you read and said, 24 wait a minute, that's not what happened? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 207 1 MR. GRILL: Objection. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I mean, if you 3 want to go -- I can't -- I don't know. 4 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 5 Q. Well, let's go through a little bit of 6 it. 7 whether there is any portions of what you've said 8 there that, you know, you take back, that you say, 9 you know what? 10 11 And really what I want to do is just identify That's not -- that's not true. MR. GRILL: Objection. BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 12 Q. And before we do that, let me just ask 13 you. 14 in '97 when you testified at this trial than your 15 memory is today? 16 17 Your memory, would you say, was better back A. happened. I mean, back then, that's when it So, you know ... 18 Q. It was much more recent, correct? 19 A. Huh? 20 Q. It was much more recent then, right? 21 A. It's been a long time, you know? 22 Q. And so back in '97, it was more recent, 23 24 and so you probably remembered more, right? A. Probably, yeah. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 208 1 Q. Let me ask you, when you testified at 2 that trial, was it your intention to answer the 3 questions honestly at that trial? 4 MR. GRILL: 5 THE WITNESS: 6 Yeah. Q. You weren't purposely giving any false information at that trial, correct? 9 A. No. 10 Q. I'm sorry. 11 again. You weren't purposely giving any false information at that trial? 14 A. 15 MR. GRILL: 16 I'll ask the question I apologize. 12 13 Asked and answered. BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 7 8 Object. No. Objection. Form of the question. BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 17 Q. Let me turn your attention to page 205. 18 You on that page there? Okay. 19 And starting on page 205, it states 20 there that you have been contacted by Detective 21 Guevara and that you saw him at Area 5; is that 22 true? 23 MR. GRILL: 24 THE WITNESS: Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. Objection. Form. Where -- where is that at? 312.781.9586 Page 209 1 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 2 Q. At the bottom of page 205. 3 A. At the bottom? 4 Q. And when it says -- I'll just read it 5 to you. 6 7 "Question: And you answered, "Only place I seen Guevara was in Area 5." 10 11 12 13 14 Were you ever contacted by Detective Guevara?" 8 9 It says: Is it true that you were contacted by Detective Guevara and saw him at Area 5? A. I mean, at what time you trying to say that he contacted me? Q. Yeah. In the course of his 15 investigation, is it the case that Guevara 16 contacted you, and you then saw him at Area 5? 17 A. I mean, like I told him, the time I 18 seen him was the time -- about the time when the 19 pictures were shown to me, you know? 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. As far as -- 22 Q. Go ahead. 23 A. As far as if you want me to tell you 24 So you saw Detective Guevara -- that he contacted me, if I remember, I don't Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 210 1 remember. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. But I did see him in the station the 4 5 6 day of the pictures. Q. Okay. All right. And so let's turn then to the bottom of page 206. 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. I'm just going to have you read the 9 bottom of 206, where it starts: 10 "Question: And you were shown a 11 photo array, a photo spread; is that correct?" 12 Do you see that? 13 Four lines from the bottom, page 206. 14 A. "And you were shown a photo array, a 15 photo spread"? 16 Q. Yes. So starting there, why don't you 17 just read through page 207, and just tell me when 18 you've looked at -- through page 207. 19 20 21 22 A. Okay. It says, "And you were shown a photo array, a photo spread, is that correct?" I said yes. MR. GRILL: I'm going to object to this line 23 of questioning; form, foundation. 24 we are impeaching this witness or trying to Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 I don't know if Page 211 1 rehabilitate this witness. 2 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 3 Q. Well, let me ask you this. 4 Turning to page 207 -- All right? 5 On 207 it states: 6 "Question: And after he showed you 7 the photo array" -- that's Detective Guevara -- 8 "did you point out a picture to that detective as 9 to who shot Noel Andujar and you? 10 11 "Answer: I told them I didn't see the person that shot." 12 Is that true? 13 MR. GRILL: 14 THE WITNESS: Objection. Form. Yeah, I told him I didn't see 15 the -- if he was trying to give -- if he was asking 16 me if I seen the person's face, no, I didn't. 17 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. You know, somebody did shoot at us that 20 day, but I didn't see his face, if it was -- if 21 that's what he was trying to ask me back then, you 22 know. 23 24 Q. And so you told Detective Guevara you didn't see the person that shot at your car? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 212 1 2 A. Right. I didn't see the -- I didn't see his face, man. 3 Q. And you told Detective Guevara that? 4 A. Yeah, I must have told him. 5 I mean, he's asking me, and I told 6 him I didn't see the person, you know? 7 see his -- basically what I'm trying to tell, I 8 didn't see his face. 9 I didn't Whatever he was shooting at, I 10 didn't see his face. 11 know, hey, this is the guy, like -- you know, this 12 is him, you know? 13 I didn't see -- I wasn't paying attention to his 14 face. 15 know? 16 I couldn't tell him, you I couldn't tell him that because I was more just looking at his hands, you Q. And after you told Detective Guevara 17 that you couldn't identify the shooter, he then 18 told you that he believed it was one of the photos 19 that he showed you; is that right? 20 21 22 23 24 A. Like I told him, he told me he believed that was the guy that did the shooting. Q. And that was after you had told him you hadn't been able to see the shooter? A. Well, that's -- yeah. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 213 1 Q. Okay. And when that happened, he then 2 told you that he wanted you to pick out a specific 3 picture; isn't that right? 4 5 A. I can't recall if he told me he wanted me to pick out that picture specifically. 6 But, you know, if that's the one he 7 wanted me to point at -- to, yeah, I pointed to 8 that one, I mean. 9 knew something I didn't know. You know, to me it was like he It was like if this 10 was the one that did it, how they find that out I 11 don't know. 12 13 Q. He told you the picture of the person in his hand was the person he believed that did it? 14 A. He did -- that did it. 15 Q. I'm going to just have you look at -- 16 I'm going to -- looking at page 208 now, if you 17 turn to that page, in middle of that page there's a 18 question. 19 20 "Did you point out anybody in those photos?" 21 22 And your answer was "I pointed out the one he told me to point out." 23 24 And it says: Do you see that? A. Yeah. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 214 1 Q. 2 MR. GRILL: 3 Okay. Objection. BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 4 Q. Is that testimony true? 5 MR. GRILL: 6 THE WITNESS: Objection. I pointed out the picture he 7 had in his hand. 8 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. And I'll say ... 11 Q. And as it says in the testimony, is 12 that the picture he told you to point out? 13 A. That's the picture he had in his hand. 14 Q. Okay. 15 And he had you -- and when you -- so you then ID'd that photo; is that right? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. Okay. And you did that because you 18 were angry that your friend had been killed, and 19 Guevara had told you, we believe that this is the 20 guy? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. Okay. And he then -- and he had you 23 sign that photo, and he told you it pick it out, 24 right? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 215 1 2 A. I don't know if -- I can't remember if he had me sign it. 3 Q. But I picked it out. Okay. And after that, Guevara then 4 took you out to go look at a car; is that also 5 true? 6 MR. GRILL: Objection. 7 THE WITNESS: I mean, like I told him, I 8 couldn't -- I couldn't tell you if it was Guevara 9 or who it was. 10 But I know I was taken downstairs by some detective. 11 I don't know which one. I don't know if it was one, two. 12 can't tell you, you know? 13 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 14 Q. Okay. I And when you went out to look at 15 the car, you told them that was not the car, 16 correct? 17 A. Yeah, I told them that ain't the car. 18 Q. Okay. 19 20 21 22 23 24 And what was the reason you told them that wasn't the car? A. I told them it didn't have tints and it didn't have rims on it. Q. And when you signed your statement -- strike that. You were shown your statement, which Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 216 1 I think has been marked as Exhibit 1, right? 2 When you signed that statement, the 3 only people who were there were you and Detective 4 Guevara? 5 A. 6 I mean, I can't really tell you. I can't remember, you know, but ... 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. I mean, I don't even -- like I say, I 9 don't know who this Guevara dude is. 10 remember him. 11 know. 12 me at that date, you know. 13 I don't Like I told him, I know Guevara, you But I don't know if it was Guevara only with Q. You know Guevara was there when they 14 were talking to you about the statement; you don't 15 know if there were other people there? 16 17 18 19 A. Yeah. I don't remember if there was anybody else there. Q. Okay. And you are not the person who wrote the statement; is that right? 20 A. I didn't write that. 21 Q. Okay. 22 Thomas Sierra in a photo lineup. 23 24 It says in there that you ID'd But in fact that's not true, correct? A. In a photo lineup, or a lineup? Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 217 1 2 Q. Sorry. Strike that. Strike that. That's a good question. 3 It says in there that you viewed a 4 physical lineup and ID'd Sierra. 5 correct? 6 MR. GRILL: 7 THE WITNESS: That is not true, Objection. That I viewed a lineup and 8 ID'd? No, I seen no lineup. 9 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: I seen the pictures. 10 Q. So you didn't see a physical lineup? 11 A. No. 12 MR. GRILL: 13 14 Objection. BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: Q. And not only did you not see a physical 15 lineup; you certainly didn't ID Thomas Sierra in a 16 physical lineup? 17 18 A. No, because I couldn't, because I didn't see no lineup -- 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. -- like that. 21 Q. Okay. You testified earlier about -- 22 and you can just keep these exhibits out, but you 23 don't need the exhibits any more. 24 Let me just ask you. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 You testified Page 218 1 at the time of your testimony in the Thomas Sierra 2 trial, you were in police custody, correct? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Okay. 5 charges? 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. Did that case that was pending against 8 And you were facing pending you go to trial? 9 A. Yeah, it went to trial. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. And you were acquitted at trial? Were you told anything about 13 whether or not that case would go to trial or may 14 potentially be dropped or some other consequence 15 could take place if you testified a certain way in 16 the Thomas Sierra trial? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Were you given any assurance to say, if 19 you do this at the Thomas Sierra trial, it may have 20 some impact on your pending charges? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Okay. 23 24 But at that time you were in police custody facing pending charges, correct? A. Yes. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 219 1 2 Q. Okay. a position where -- well, strike that. 3 4 You were given immunity in this Thomas Sierra trial; isn't that true? 5 6 And suffice to say, you were in Didn't the police officers at the City offer you immunity? 7 A. What do you mean by that? 8 Q. Were there any -- were you told -- were 9 you given any promises or told anything at the time 10 that you were asked to testify at the Thomas Sierra 11 trial? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Okay. 14 Were you given any assurances when you testified at the Thomas Sierra trial? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Okay. When you testified at the Thomas 17 Sierra trial while you had pending charges against 18 you, do you feel it would have been advantageous 19 for you to testify in a way that was beneficial to 20 the police officers? 21 MR. GRILL: 22 THE WITNESS: 23 24 Objection. Form. What do you mean by that? BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: Q. Okay. Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. Well, let me ask you that 312.781.9586 Page 220 1 differently. 2 You testified at the Thomas Sierra 3 trial that Reynaldo Guevara had you pick somebody 4 out in a lineup, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. 7 he shouldn't be doing, right? 8 9 MR. GRILL: Objection to the form of the question. 10 THE WITNESS: 11 12 And that's obviously something Yes. I mean, I -- yeah. I mean, like ... BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 13 Q. And it's not necessarily a good thing 14 for you to be saying officers are doing bad things 15 while you're facing pending charges; isn't that 16 true? 17 MR. GRILL: 18 THE WITNESS: Objection. Well, I mean, I can't -- I 19 don't know, you know? 20 there fighting a murder case, man, you know? 21 But -- I mean, I'm sitting And -- you know, I don't know what 22 would have -- what would have came after that, you 23 know? 24 case, man, you know, from the beginning. But I didn't want nothing to do with this Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 221 1 I didn't want to testify. 2 want nothing to do with this case, man. 3 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 4 Q. I didn't But when you did testify, even though 5 you were in custody and facing pending charges, you 6 testified and told the truth? 7 A. I mean, I could -- I could only tell 8 you what I could remember, man, at the time, 9 and ... 10 Q. And that's what you did? 11 A. That's -- that's what I did. 12 I guess -- you know, that's what I 13 did. I told them what I could remember, you know, 14 at the time, you know. 15 I was -- I was there for two years, 16 you know what I mean? 17 everything after a while, you know? 18 19 Q. You just don't remember But whatever you could remember, that's what you told them at the trial? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. Okay. Do you have -- did Guevara -- 22 and that's Detective Rey Guevara, the police 23 officer. 24 You know -- you know of him, Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 222 1 correct? 2 right? We've been talking about him here today, 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Did he have any reputation in the 5 neighborhood? 6 A. 7 MR. GRILL: 8 THE WITNESS: 9 I mean, he ... 12 13 14 Asked and answered. I mean, you don't -- you didn't hear good things about this guy, man. 10 11 Objection. Let me just put it that way, man. BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: Q. Okay. What kind of things would you hear that were negative about Guevara? A. I mean, I can't -- I can't tell you 15 that because, you know, I never seen none of this 16 stuff, you know. 17 people's mouth. 18 19 Q. It just what comes out of You know what I'm saying? Right. Just what other people are saying; it's not what you observed. 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. But what other people were saying, when 22 23 they were saying bad things about Guevara -MR. GRILL: Objection. 24 Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 223 1 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 2 Q. 3 actions? 4 he puts cases on people? 5 -- was it about specific kinds of Was it, hey, he beats people up? Or hey, He gets people to lie? What would people say about Guevara? 6 MR. GRILL: Objection. 7 THE WITNESS: Form, foundation. I mean, like -- I mean, like -- 8 not exactly like -- like, man, I don't want to see 9 people get locked up, man, for stuff they ain't do, 10 man. 11 tell you if he was involved in it or not. 12 what I'm saying? 13 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 14 15 You know what I'm saying? Q. And I can't really You know But ... But that's what people in the community believed? 16 MR. GRILL: 17 THE WITNESS: Objection. I mean, from my understanding, 18 that's what I -- you know, that's -- from what they 19 said, that's what I believe. 20 21 22 23 24 You know what I'm saying? BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: Q. So what people were saying -- I'm not saying you observed this. But what people were saying is that Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 224 1 people would get locked up for cases they didn't 2 do, and Rey Guevara was involved? 3 MR. GRILL: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: Yeah, he was involved in a few 5 cases, you know? It's not like -- 6 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. And that's what I wanted -- like, man, 9 10 I can't really tell you, you know? tell you off of rumors. 11 I just could You know what I'm saying? If they were true, they were true. 12 If they're not, they're not, you know? 13 you know? 14 what I'm saying? I try to stay away from them. I just -You know 15 Q. You try to stay away from Rey Guevara? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. Is that what most people in the 18 community try to do? 19 MR. GRILL: 20 THE WITNESS: Objection. 21 that, but ... 22 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 23 24 Q. I don't know. I can't tell you And those statements about Rey Guevara, you know, that he's got this bad reputation, is Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 225 1 that -- that was unique to Rey Guevara -- would 2 that be unique to Rey Guevara? 3 4 Or was that something that people were saying about every officer? 5 MR. GRILL: Objection. 6 THE WITNESS: No, they wasn't saying it about 7 every officer. 8 officers do right things; some officers do -- you 9 know? They do little stuff on the side. 10 11 12 13 It was just, you know, some So, you know, I can't -- you know? BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: Q. And Rey Guevara is one of the ones who is known for doing stuff on the side? 14 MR. GRILL: 15 THE WITNESS: 16 Objection. I mean, you hear rumors. know what I'm saying? 17 MR. GRILL: 18 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 19 MR. GRILL: 20 23 24 Objection. I have nothing further. I have a couple of follow-up questions. 21 22 You FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. GRILL: Q. How long were you in custody at Cook County Jail prior to testifying in the Thomas Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 226 1 Sierra case? 2 3 A. I can't remember when the case went to court, the Thomas Sierra case went to court. 4 5 But I was locked up for two years fighting my own case. 6 Q. How long after -- and I may have asked 7 this before, but if I have, I apologize; just to 8 refresh my memory here. 9 How long after Nuni was shot did you 10 get picked up on the murder case? 11 it was like a month or two after? 12 A. No. I think you said I think it was -- the case I was 13 involved with, I don't know if it was in '96. 14 think it was in the -- somewhere in the beginning 15 of '96 somewhere. 16 I I don't know if it was like -- like 17 on May -- I can't recall what day I got locked up 18 for that case. 19 Q. Okay. So were you actually in custody 20 at the time you testified at Thomas Sierra's 21 criminal trial, or no? 22 A. I believe I was. 23 can't tell you. 24 time. I can't -- I But I think I was locked up at the Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 227 1 2 Q. And you said earlier that you had spent time with Thomas Sierra in the County Jail. 3 A. No, I spent no time with him. 4 Q. No. 5 A. We were probably in the same jail at 6 I'm saying you guys were -- the same time, but -- 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. -- as far as us being on the same deck, Q. I understand that. 9 no. 10 11 But that time that you were talking 12 about when you believe that you and Thomas Sierra 13 were at the same facility, being Cook County Jail, 14 was that this time, or was this a different time 15 that you're talking about? 16 A. No. I mean, it could have been -- by 17 the time he had his murder, I ended up catching my 18 murder some months afterwards, you know? 19 mean, we had to be there, because these cases in 20 Cook County were taking a long time. 21 22 23 24 Q. So -- I You got No. 1 in front of you, right there? So, Mr. Melendez, on Exhibit 1 that I spent some time going through with you a while -- Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 228 1 a moment ago, in that, it references that you 2 viewed a physical lineup. 3 4 Do you remember that part in that written statement that talks about that? 5 A. Where is that? 6 Q. The last page, CPD 1057. 7 second paragraph. 8 9 And it's the It says, as we testified -- or talked before, "José Melendez states that he saw a 10 lineup on May 30th, 1995, and he picked out the man 11 that shot at him and his car on May 23rd, 1995." 12 Do you see that paragraph? 13 A. Yeah, I see that paragraph. 14 Q. When I asked you about that, when I was 15 asking questions, you claimed that you didn't have 16 a recollection of any of -- of making that 17 statement at all, but that, if -- since your name 18 appears signed on the bottom of each one of these 19 pages, I believe you told me that you believe that 20 you must have seen a lineup. 21 22 23 24 Am I saying that correctly? MR. SWAMINATHAN: Objection to form, and objection to the extent it misstates the testimony. THE WITNESS: Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. When you asked me that, you 312.781.9586 Page 229 1 didn't tell me if it was a physical or a photo 2 lineup. 3 BY MR. GRILL: 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. So I couldn't tell you, you know. 6 7 8 9 10 But I seen a photo lineup. I didn't see no physical lineup. Q. Okay. So it's your testimony now that you never saw a physical lineup? A. No, I didn't see no physical. I saw a 11 photo lineup, and that's the day they showed me the 12 photos. 13 Q. And when you say you didn't see a 14 physical lineup, are you saying that because you 15 don't remember, sitting here today, seeing one? 16 Or are you saying that you didn't 17 see a physical lineup? 18 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 19 Objection to form. BY MR. GRILL: 20 Q. Do you understand my question? 21 A. Yeah, I understand. I don't have 22 any -- I don't remember seeing a physical lineup. 23 All I remember is the photograph lineup. 24 Q. Is it possible that you did see a Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 230 1 physical lineup and you don't remember it today? 2 3 MR. SWAMINATHAN: Objection. Asked and answered. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't know. I can't tell 5 you. 6 only -- the only thing I remember was the 7 photograph lineup. 8 9 10 11 I don't remember. To me, the That's all I remember. As far as the physical lineup, I don't remember that. BY MR. GRILL: Q. Okay. And I guess really what I'm 12 driving at is you say you don't remember that, but 13 I'm not clear about what you mean. 14 15 Do you not remember that today, in so much as you mean that it never happened? 16 17 18 Or you just don't have a recollection of that; that it could have happened? A. I mean, you want me to tell you -- I 19 don't think it happened. 20 happened, that I seen the lineup with the photo 21 lineup. 22 get an answer to that. 23 24 Q. The only thing I think And that's all I can tell you, to try and And you acknowledge or agree that, in the paragraph preceding the one that I just read to Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 231 1 you on the third page of Exhibit 1, that preceding 2 paragraph describes you having seen a photo lineup, 3 correct? 4 A. Where you talking about? 5 Q. Right above, on page 1057, CPD 1057, on 6 Exhibit 1, the first full paragraph that begins, 7 "Jose Melendez says that he saw a photo lineup of 8 six photos." 9 Do you see that paragraph? 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. Okay. 12 says that you saw a photo lineup, correct? 13 14 A. It says I saw a photo lineup? I did see a photo lineup, yeah. 15 16 So you agree that that paragraph As far as a photo lineup, I seen a photo lineup. 17 Q. And you made corrections that you 18 initialed to that paragraph to ensure, presumably, 19 that the information that's contained in that 20 paragraph is accurate, correct? 21 22 23 MR. SWAMINATHAN: Objection. Objection to form. THE WITNESS: I didn't write that, you know? 24 Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 232 1 BY MR. GRILL: 2 Q. So who wrote -- 3 A. He could have -- he could have -- I 4 mean, I don't know if he -- he got mixed up on the 5 dates or what. 6 7 I signed the paper. Q. Yes. And you put your initials there 8 next to each one of those corrections in that 9 paragraph, correct? 10 11 A. The first one don't. 13 Q. 14 correct? 15 A. 17 I mean, the second initial on the same thing looks like my initial. 12 16 Yeah. But you -- those are your initials, JM, yeah, right here at the end, yeah, that's my initial. Q. Okay. And in the paragraph below that 18 that talks about seeing a physical lineup, you 19 don't -- there are no corrections, or -- at all, of 20 any type, made in that paragraph, correct? 21 A. Where it says physical lineup at? 22 Q. Well, I shouldn't say that. 23 24 In the paragraph that says "Jos Melendez states that he saw a lineup on May 30th, Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 233 1 1995, and he picked out the man that shot at him 2 and his car on May 23, 1995." 3 In that paragraph, in the written 4 statement here that's been marked as Exhibit 1, 5 there appear no corrections of any type made to 6 that particular paragraph, right? 7 8 A. There is nothing crossed out on there, yeah. 9 MR. GRILL: 10 All right. I have nothing further. 11 12 Okay. FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 13 Q. Mr. Melendez, this statement, 14 Exhibit 1, do you believe that Mr. Guevara got you 15 to sign this statement because he knew -- strike 16 that. 17 Do you believe Mr. Guevara took 18 advantage of the fact that you were upset, and your 19 friend had been shot, and so he got you to sign a 20 statement that he knew was not true? 21 MR. GRILL: 22 THE WITNESS: 23 can't answer that. Objection; form, foundation. I mean, I can't answer that. 24 Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 I Page 234 1 BY MR. SWAMINATHAN: 2 3 Q. Did you know Thomas Sierra at the time of this shooting? 4 A. 5 MR. SWAMINATHAN: 6 MR. GRILL: 7 No, I didn't know him. Okay. Nothing further. I don't think I have anything else. 8 Nothing else. 9 Mr. Melendez, as you've been seeing 10 today, the court reporter has been taking down 11 everything we've been talking about. 12 You have a couple options now at 13 this point. 14 your signature, meaning we can send you a copy of 15 this transcript and you can review it and make sure 16 that it's accurate. 17 sign the bottom. 18 You can do what's called reserving And, if you agree, then you'll Or you can waive that and just trust 19 that the court reporter, who not only was writing 20 it down, but was also tape recording everything, 21 accurately recorded everything. 22 23 24 It's your decision, so whatever you want to do. Most people waive it, and they trust Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 235 1 2 her, but you don't have to do that at all. THE WITNESS: I mean, I don't think she's 3 going to sit here and write anything that she 4 shouldn't be writing, so ... 5 MR. GRILL: 6 THE WITNESS: 7 MR. GRILL: 8 I agree with what. I'll waive it. Signature waived. And I'll take a copy, an E-tran. 9 10 (Deposition adjourned at 11 2:03 p.m.) 12 13 FURTHER DEPONENT SAYETH NOT ... 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586 Page 236 1 STATE OF ILLINOIS 2 COUNTY OF C O O K 3 I, Barbara A. Wichmann, do hereby certify that JOSÉ MELENDEZ was duly sworn by me to testify the whole truth, that the foregoing deposition was recorded stenographically by me and was reduced to computerized transcript under my direction, and that the said deposition constitutes a true record of the testimony given by said witness. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 ) ) ) SS: I further certify that the reading and signing of the deposition was waived by the deponent. I further certify that I am not a relative or employee or attorney or counsel of any of the parties, or a relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, or financially interested directly or indirectly in this action. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and affixed my seal of office at Chicago, Illinois, this 15th day of July 2014. 14 15 16 17 Illinois CSR No. 084-001492 Notary Public, Cook County, Illinois My commission expires August 1, 2015 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Urlaub Bowen & Associates, Inc. 312.781.9586