IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS , EASTERN DIVISION JUAN JOHNSON , Plaintiff vs. REYNALDO GUEVARA ,and THE CITY OF CHICAGO , Defendants * * * * * * * * *** NO. 2005 Civil 1042 Deposition of : ALBERTO RODRIGUEZ Date : Friday ; January 9, 2009 9:00 a.m. Place : Conference Room No. 1 FCI McKean Big Shanty Road Lewis Run, Pennsylvania 16738 Reported By : Jan M. Merritt Court Reporter & Notary Public APPEARANCES : LIZ MAZUR , Esquire appeared via telephone on behalf of Plaintiff CHRISTINA WHITE , Esquire appeared on behalf of Defendant City of Chicago SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES P.O. BOX 997 St. Marys, PA 15857 (814) 834-5337 3 1 (OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION .) 2 3 4 ALBERTO RODRIGUEZ , called as a witness , was sworn and examined , testified as follows : 5 6 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. WHITE : 7 Q. Okay , let's get started . Let the record 8 reflect this is the deposition of Alberto Rodriguez taken 9 pursuant to subpoena and the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure 10 in Case No. 05-C-1042 , captioned Juan Johnson versus Reynaldo 11 Guevara and the City of Chicago , pending in the U.S. District 12 Court for the Northern District of Illinois . 13 This deposition is being taken at the McKean Federal 14 Correctional Institute in Lewis Run, Pennsylvania , on 15 January 9, 2009 . 16 Merritt , a sworn notary and court reporter ; myself , Christina 17 White ; and counsel for the Plaintiff , Liz Mazur , is attending 18 by telephone . 19 20 Present in addition to Mr. Rodriguez are Jan The witness has been sworn in. Can you please state your full name and spell your last name for the record ? 21 A. Alberto Rodriguez , R-o-d-r-i-g-u-e-z. 22 Q. Mr. Rodriguez , have you ever given a deposition 24 A. I'm not sure what a deposition is. 25 Q. Okay , okay . 23 before ? A deposition is just like this , SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 4 1 where we are sitting in a room , there may be anywhere from one 2 to any number of attorneys , and the court reporter taking down 3 what you say. 4 truth in the things you say. 5 And you are under oath, you have to tell the Depositions are typically taken in cases , typically 6 civil case s, although they are taken in criminal cases , but in 7 cases that are pending , prior to the trial. 8 A. Okay . 9 Q. So I hope that explains it for you. And I'm 10 really only asking at this point because I'm going to go over 11 some ground rules for the deposition with you. 12 previously done one, I wouldn 't need to go through those 13 ground rules . 14 A. No, not really . 15 Q. Okay . 16 A. Okay . 17 Q. Here 's the rules. If you had The rules are pretty easy . You can see that she is 18 typing over there, taking down everything we say today , and 19 she'll take it and put it into a transcript . 20 A. Okay . 21 Q. And because she's typing , we have to answer 22 verbally . 23 your head . 24 to type down and it's kind of tough for her to tell what your 25 answer is. And also , Liz is not here to see if you are nodding Or if you say uh-huh or huh-uh, it's tough for her SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 5 1 A. Okay . 2 Q. So I'm going to ask you a series of questions . 3 Ms. Mazur may ask you a series of questions . 4 answer verbally . 5 question before you answer . 6 you when you're answering as well . And you need to You need to wait until I'm done with my I'll do my best not to interrupt 7 A. Okay . 8 Q. If you don't understand my question , just ask 9 me and I'll rephrase it or explain it. Okay ? 10 A. Okay . 11 Q. But if you answer my question , I'm going to 12 assume you understood the question . Sound fair ? 13 A. Okay . 14 Q. If you need a break for any reason , just ask 15 and we will go ahead and take a break. 16 And if you hear an objection , just stop , and 17 Ms. Mazur and I will work it out and advise you what you need 18 to do. Okay ? 19 A. Okay . 20 Q. All right . 21 A. 145, 33, 424. 22 Q. And you are currently incarcerated , correct ? 23 A. Correct . 24 Q. And where are you incarcerated ? 25 A. FCI McKean . Can you give me your inmate number ? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 6 1 Q. That 's in Lewis Run, Pennsylvania ? 2 A. Yes, ma'am. 3 Q. How long have you been incarcerated here? 4 A. I would say since 2005 . 5 Q. What have you been convicted for? 6 A. Racketeering and gun charge s. 7 Q. What court were you convicted out of? 8 A. United States Federal Court , Dirksen Building . 9 Q. In Chicago ? 10 A. Yeah . 11 Q. And was your conviction in 2005? 12 A. I believe so, yes. 13 Q. Have you been housed anywhere besides FCI 14 15 16 McKean during this conviction , this sentence ? A. Well , I did some -- my pretrial in MCC Chicago . Then I went to several county jails as well before I got here. 17 Q. Were those all in Illinois ? 18 A. Wisconcin , Illinois . 19 Q. Do you recall the names of those county jails? 20 A. I believe one was Freeport County , and one was 21 Kenosha County . Dodge County . That 's all I remember for now. 22 Q. All right . 23 A. I got 25 years . 24 Q. What was your address prior to incarceration ? 25 A. Well , I didn't have an address . What is your sentence ? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES Actually , I 7 1 was just staying with relatives here and there. 2 Q. Do you recall your address in May of 1995 ? 3 A. Might have been 2717 North Hoyne . 4 Q. Did you rent or own that ? 5 A. I was staying with my relatives there . 6 Q. Which relatives ? 7 A. My mom. 8 Q. What 's your mom's name ? 9 A. Maria Rodriguez . 10 Q. How long did you stay with your mom on Hoyne A. Pretty much stayed with her mostly all the 11 Street ? 12 13 time . Really long time . 14 Q. Would you say years ? 15 A. Yeah , many years. 16 Q. What 's your date of birth ? 17 A. 6/19/73. 18 Q. What 's your Social Security ? 19 A. 35 -- I'm not sure . 20 Q. What is your marital status ? 21 A. Single . 22 Q. Have you ever been married ? 23 A. No. 24 Q. How many children do you have ? 25 A. Two children . 353-62 -- or 64-6218. I have children . SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 8 1 Q. And can you give me their names and ages? 2 A. Xavier and Alberto . 3 Q. Are their last names Rodriguez ? 4 A. Yes, ma'am. 5 Q. How old is Xavier ? 6 A. Xavier is 11 and Alberto is 12. 7 Q. Are you on any medications today that would 8 interfere with your ability to answer my questions honestly ? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Are you on any medications today that would 11 interfere with your ability to under stand my questions ? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you have any conviction s previous to the one 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 you're currently serving your sentence for? A. Yeah , I believe so. I think I have a gun charge and a drug charge , if I am not mistaken . Q. Were the drug and gun charge tried together , or did you plead to them together ? A. Well , I took the drug charge to trial . gun charge , I pled guilty . Q. Let's start with the gun charge. Do you remember when that trial occurred ? 23 A. I would say around maybe '96. 24 Q. Which court was that in? 25 A. Cook County . SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES Maybe. And the 9 1 Q. State court ? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What was your sentence on that ? 4 A. On the drug charge ? 5 Q. On the gun charge . 6 A. Gun charge ? I took the drug charge to trial 7 and I had pending the gun charge, so when I pled guilt y for 8 the gun, they ran them together and gave me probation . 9 Q. Okay , I think I might -- 10 A. Two years probation . 11 Q. I apologize for interrupting . 12 have written my notes wrong. I think I might Which one did you take to trial? 13 A. The drug charge . 14 Q. What was the sentence that they gave you for 15 both of them together ? 16 A. Probation , two years probation . 17 Q. Were you ever incarcerated at all relating to 18 19 It was probation ? the drug and gun charges in 1996? A. Yeah . I did -- when I lost my trial for the 20 drug charge , I did maybe almost a month in Cook County Jail . 21 I was detained when I lost the trial . 22 23 Q. Have you ever been arrested by the Chicago Police Department ? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. How many times ? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 10 1 A. Several times . 2 Q. Would you say more than five ? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Would you say more than ten? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. More than 15? 7 A. Maybe around there . 8 Q. Do you know if you were ever arrested by an 9 officer name d Reynaldo Guevara ? 10 A. No. 11 Q. That was going to be my next question . 12 I don't know officers ' names . Do you know of a Chicago police officer named Rey Guevara ? 13 A. Not that I can remember . 14 Q. Well , as you may have heard me state earlier , 15 he's a defendant named in this case . 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. So if later on you think you may remember him 18 or may know him, just let me know . 19 now, you don't know who that is, correct ? But as you sit here right 20 A. What 's the name there? 21 Q. Rey Guevara ? 22 A. Rey Guevara ? 23 Q. Uh-huh. Have you ever heard any of your cell 24 mates at any time you have been incarcerated discuss a Chicago 25 police officer named Rey Guevara ? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 11 1 A. No. 2 Q. As a result of any of your arrests , did you 3 ever file any complaint s regarding treatment during your 4 arrest or incarceration ? 5 A. Which incarceration ? 6 Q. Any time you were incarcerated by the Chicago 7 police department . 8 Jail , another time MCC, which really isn't -- I think once you were held at Cook County 9 A. No, no. 10 Q. Have you ever been physically abused during any 11 of your arrests ? 12 13 A. Well , yeah . But it was for refusing to be arrested for disorderly conduct . 14 Q. Any other times ? 15 A. Not that I recall . 16 Q. And what was the last grade of education you've 18 A. Eight h grade. 19 Q. Which city was that in? 20 A. Chicago , Illinois . 21 Q. Do you know how to read and write ? 22 A. A little bit. 23 Q. Where were you employed prior to your 17 24 25 completed ? incarceration ? A. I really didn 't seek too much employment . SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES I 12 1 was just basically self -employed . 2 Q. What were you doing being self -employed ? 3 A. Like painting people 's houses , working on cars , 4 stuff like that . 5 Q. Have you ever filed a lawsuit against anyone ? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Have you ever had anyone file a lawsuit against 9 A. (No response .) 10 Q. Besides the criminal charges we have already 12 A. No. 13 Q. Have you ever testified in court ? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Any other times ? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you understand the oath you took a few 18 minutes ago? 19 A. I believe so. 20 Q. And you under stand that means you have to tell 8 11 21 you? discussed . On this case I believe it was. the truth today ? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you wear glasses ? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Have you ever worn glasses ? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 13 1 A. No. 2 Q. Have you ever been a member of a gang ? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Which gang ? 5 A. The Latin Kings . 6 Q. Are you in a gang today ? 7 A. No. I have grown up from that . I mean , I was 8 a family man before I got arrested . 9 trying to do better for my children , not giving them the 10 I'm into my children and lifestyle that I lived. 11 Q. How old were you when you joined the Latin 13 A. Umm, I would say since maybe '87, '88. 14 MS. MAZUR : 12 Kings ? 15 little bit? 16 him. I'm having a little bit of a hard time hearing 17 THE WITNESS : 18 MS. MAZUR : 19 20 21 Can I just ask the witness to speak up a Yes, ma'am. Thank you very much . BY MS. WHITE : Q. Do you remember what year -- well , did you form ally quit the Latin Kings ? 22 A. Yes, I did. 23 Q. Do you remember what year that was? 24 A. I believe it was '96, '97. 25 Q. And is there some sort of process for leaving SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 14 1 the gang? 2 A. Yes, there is a process of -- 3 Q. Can you tell me about that? 4 A. Well , you got to get beat up in order to get 5 out of the gang . 6 Q. Did you have to get beat up to leave? 7 A. No, I just left , left Chicago . 8 Q. Where did you go when you left Chicago ? 9 A. To Florida . 10 Q. Why Florida ? 11 A. That 's where my kids ' mom stayed at, so that 's Left Chicago . 12 where I went . 13 I don't need this, I don't need the trouble and this stuff 14 anymore . 15 lifestyle anymore . 16 17 My kid was just born and everything . I figured I felt I was tired of it and I didn 't want that Q. Did anyone from the gang contact you after you left and moved to Florida ? 18 A. Well , they -- they -- I had to come back for 19 court , because I had a court case . 20 court and they had contacted me because they had seen me 21 around . 22 23 I was coming back for Yes, they had contacted me. Q. Which faction or neighborhood of the Kings were you a member of? 24 A. Diversey and Hoyne . 25 Q. Are the Kings members of the Folks or the SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 15 1 People ? 2 A. They 're People . 3 Q. And were there any other gangs that your 4 faction was friendly with at that time ? 5 direct your attention to 1995 . 6 your gang was associated with ? 7 8 A. Are there any other gangs that Well , the Kings have many allies . That I know of, we didn 't have any trouble with any of the allies then . 9 10 Well , I'm going to Q. Can you tell me the names of a couple of the other gangs that were allies ? 11 A. I would say like Spanish Lords , Unknowns , Black 13 Q. And are they all People as well ? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Let's talk about some of the enemy gangs that 12 P-Stones. 16 you guys had around 1995. 17 Kings ? 18 A. Well , a lot of people didn't like the Kings , 19 you know. 20 someone , I can't say. 21 Latin Kings . 22 Q. 23 Who were general enemies of the They could even have been up to a family member or There was many people who hated the That 's fair . Were you actively warring with any other gangs in 1995? 24 A. I don't understand the question . 25 Q. Were you at war? I know sometimes gangs have SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 16 1 wars . 2 A. I wouldn 't call it war. But I would say if we 3 were to see each other, he might, he might know me or I might 4 know him, or whatever , there might have been a conflict or 5 something . 6 7 Q. Were there any specific gangs you were having those kinds of conflicts with ? 8 A. No. 9 Q. What was your faction 's relationship with the 10 Imperial Gangsters in 1995 ? 11 A. 12 Latin Kings . 13 Q. 14 I would say they were in opposition to the How about a gang called the OA's or the Orchestra Albany? 15 A. I heard of them . 16 Q. Do you know if your gang was or what the 17 relationship was between your gang and that gang ? 18 A. We're in opposition to 'em. 19 Q. Did you ever hold rank in your gang ? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did your gang have a hand symbol that you used ? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What was the purpose of having a hand signal ? 24 A. To recognize the gang that you're in. 25 Q. How many people were in your faction of the SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 17 1 Kings ? 2 A. Umm, that 's hard to tell because people get 3 arrested and people be there one time or maybe show up for a 4 little bit, next thing you know they just disappear . 5 really can't come up with a number , but I would say around 6 maybe 20, 25. 7 Q. Who was the leader back then ? 8 A. I can't remember . 9 Q. What were the streets that bound ed your 10 So I neighborhood for -- was it just in the Lathrop Homes or -- 11 A. Yeah . 12 Q. So your territory didn 't really go beyond the 13 Lathrop Homes area ? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Which gangs were on the other end of your 17 A. I would say there was Deuces , Insane Deuces . 18 Q. Which way were they from you? 16 19 territory ? North? South ? If you remember . 20 A. I'd say like south . 21 Q. Any other gangs you can remember bordering your 23 A. Nah, they were like the only ones around. 24 Q. Did you fight with the Insane Deuces? 25 A. Yes. 22 area ? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 18 1 2 Q. What did your gang typically fight with their gang about ? 3 A. Just -- just about , you know , looking at each 4 other the wrong way or -- because they were an ally of ours as 5 well . 6 But it was just minor stuff . Q. I'm going to direct your attention to a 7 shooting that occurred on May 23, 1995. 8 shooting that I am talking about? 9 A. Do you recall the I believe it's -- I believe it's the shooting 10 when I was in the car with two friends of mine? 11 at. 12 Q. Okay . 13 A. Yeah . 14 Q. Okay . We were shot And do you remember the date ? If I 15 represented to you it was May 23, 1995, do you have any reason 16 to dispute that ? 17 18 A. No, I don't dispute it, because I don't remember the exact date . 19 Q. Do you remember the time ? 20 A. I know it was dark out. 21 Q. If the police report said it was approximately 22 Kind of dark . 10:30, would you have reason to dispute that ? 23 A. No. 24 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions about the 25 shooting , but before that I want to ask you what you were SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 19 1 doing earlier in the day before the shooting . 2 A. (Nods head .) 3 Q. Can you tell me what you were doing ? 4 A. I don't know how far. 5 Q. It was at 10:30, so let's say earlier in the A. Well , I believe I was at home . 6 evening . 7 8 I was at home. And me and my friend Nuni were at my house, just hanging out. 9 Q. Let's talk about Nuni. 11 A. I think it was Noel Andujar . 12 Q. Is it spelled -- 13 A. I'm not sure. 14 Q. And how did you know Nuni ? 15 A. We kind of like grew up in the same 10 16 What was Nuni 's given name ? neighborhood . 17 Q. How long had you known him? 18 A. Several years . 19 Q. I'm sorry , did you say several or seven ? 20 A. Several . 21 Q. And did he have any other nicknames besides 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did he still live in your same neighborhood in 22 25 Several years . Nuni ? 1995 ? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 20 1 A. I don't think so. 2 Q. Do you know where he lived? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Was Nuni a member of a gang ? 5 A. Yes, ma'am. 6 Q. Which gang ? 7 A. The Latin Kings . 8 Q. Was that the same Lathrop Homes faction that 9 you were a member of? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did Nuni hold rank ? 12 A. No. 13 Q. What were you and Nuni doing at your house on 14 the evening of May 23rd? 15 A. I was actually on the phone and he had passed 16 by and I told him to come in. 17 whatever . 18 the phone with a friend of mine that was incarcerated in the 19 Cook County . 20 didn 't want to just hang up on him, so I asked him to come in. 21 22 He wanted to go for a ride or I told him to step in for a second because I was on Q. So I was talking to him on the phone and I And while he was at your house did you guys drink any alcohol ? 23 A. No, I don't think so. 24 Q. Did you take any drugs ? 25 A. Yes. SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 21 1 Q. Which drugs ? 2 A. Marijuana . 3 Q. How much ? 4 A. Maybe a joint or whatever . 5 Q. So the two of you might have shared a joint ? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And a joint is a marijuana cigarette ? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And at some point in time did someone or did 10 any of your other friends come over to your house ? 11 A. Yes, another friend of mine had came by. He 12 also wanted to go for a ride or whatever . 13 a second so I can hang up the phone with the friend of mine I 14 was talking to. 15 16 Q. house . I told him give me Tell me about this friend who came to your What was his name ? 17 A. I called him by the name Macho . 18 Q. Do you know his given name? 19 A. No. 20 Q. If I told you the police report states his 21 given name is Jose Melendez , would you have any reason to 22 dispute that ? 23 A. No. 24 Q. How did you know Macho ? 25 A. I met him several years back as well. SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 22 1 Q. From the neighborhood ? 2 A. You could say that . 3 Q. Well , how would you say it? 4 A. Well , from another branch of the Latin King 5 neighborhood . I met him over there . 6 Q. So was he a member of the Latin Kings ? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Which branch was he a member of? 9 A. I think he was Spaulding . 10 Q. Did that Spaulding Street group have a cross 11 Spaulding Street . street that you know of? 12 A. What do you mean by a cross street ? 13 Q. Sometimes I have heard of gangs, when they have 14 a neighborhood that 's a street and a street , they 'll say both 15 cross streets . 16 17 A. Do you know where at on Spaulding ? It might have been Beech and Spaulding . know Spaulding . 18 Q. Okay . 19 A. Yeah . 20 Q. Okay . 21 Spaulding Latin Kings ? 22 A. No. 23 Q. I'm sorry . A. I don't know if he had rank or not. 24 25 I just Do you know if Macho had rank in the You don't know, or no, he did not have rank ? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 23 1 Q. Do you still talk to Macho? 2 A. No. 3 Q. When was the last time you talked to him? 4 A. Wow, I can't remember . 5 Q. Would it have been years ? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you know where he lived at the time ? 8 A. No. 9 Q. So you guys decide d you were going to go for a 10 It's been a long time. ride , you said , correct ? 11 A. Yes, uh-huh. 12 Q. Whose car did you take ? 13 A. We went in Macho's car. 14 Q. Could you describe Macho 's car? 15 A. I think it was a Cutlass . 16 year it was. 17 Q. Do you know what color it was? 18 A. It might have been like a sky blue maybe. 19 Q. Do you know what time it was when Macho came to 20 I'm not sure what your house ? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did you guys go for rides often? 23 A. Once in a blue moon . 24 Q. What was the purpose of going for a ride? 25 A. He just happened to pass by. You want to go SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 24 1 for a ride , whatever , hang out. 2 3 Did you usually do anything while you were on A. Yeah , we might smoke a couple of marijuana your ride ? 4 5 Q. cigarettes . 6 Q. 7 call them . 8 earlier . You can call them joints if that 's what you I just wanted to state that for the record 9 A. Yeah . 10 Q. What gang controlled your neighborhood ? 11 A. Controlled the neighborhood ? 12 Q. Would that be the Latin Kings ? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And do you remember what time you guys left to 15 A couple of joints . go on a ride ? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you remember where you went on your ride ? 18 A. Well , we were headed towards Logan . 19 just -- 20 21 We were just riding . Q. Do you remember if you went through any other gang 's neighborhood ? 22 A. Well , when you drive down Chicago , you pass 23 many gangs ' neighborhoods because there is so many gangs in 24 Chicago . 25 Q. Were you specifically trying to go through any SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 25 1 particular gang 's neighborhood ? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Were you specifically trying to avoid any other 4 5 We were just -- gang 's neighborhood ? A. We were always trying to avoid crashing with 6 opposition neighborhoods or people . 7 intention wasn 't to pass through anybody 's neighborhood or 8 start any trouble or anything . 9 10 Q. To avoid trouble . Our We were just passing by. Did you guys smoke any marijuana in the car while you were riding around ? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How much did you personally smoke ? 13 A. Myself ? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Well , we shared two joints all together . 16 Q. Between the three of you? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And all three of you smoked ? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And did the amount of marijuana that you smoked 21 that day impair your ability to understand what was going on? 22 A. Well , somewhat . 23 Q. This is going to be a tough question , but can 24 you tell me to what degree you think it impaired your ability ? 25 I don't know how you can best describe it. SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 26 1 A. Wow. I can't really describe it, but, you 2 know , it's just like , you know , just the typical buzz . 3 like maybe just drinkin ' a couple beers or something like 4 that . 5 Maybe Q. You had smoked marijuana before that day; 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Were you in control of your actions that day, 6 9 10 11 12 13 correct ? after smoking the marijuana ? A. Well , I tried to stay in control . I don't know if I was in control , but -- I always tried my best . Q. Did the amount you had smoked impair your ability to see clearly ? 14 A. I don't think so. 15 Q. Do you know if you guys were going anywhere in 16 particular at the time of the shooting ? 17 A. No, we were just riding , just cruising . 18 Q. Where was everyone seated in the car? 19 A. Macho was driving . 20 21 22 I was in the passenger seat and Nuni was in the back seat . Q. Do you recall whether he was in the driver 's or passenger 's side of the back seat ? 23 A. He was kinda like in the middle. 24 Q. Did you guys have any weapons in the car? 25 A. No. SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 27 1 2 Q. person ? Do you know if anyone had any weapons on their Actually on them ? 3 A. No. 4 Q. What was the conversation while you guys were 5 driving around ? 6 7 A. Well , it wasn 't really any conversation . just , you know , joked around and listen ed to music . 8 Q. Was anyone drinking alcohol in the car? 9 A. I don't think so. 10 Q. Okay . 11 We Can you tell me what you remember about the shooting ? 12 A. Well , I think from when it started , we were 13 just -- we stopped at a red light . 14 the side because we had the radio up. 15 the side, I looked at him and he pointed toward the car on his 16 left side . 17 And there is like some type of tinted window on it. 18 they 're throwing gang signs. 19 And Macho had tapped me on So when he tapped me on So when I looked , I see, I see people in there . And At that point I tried to keep my eye on them and see 20 what they are up to, because -- it could have been something 21 serious going on, or, you know , the reason he tapped me was 22 because he wanted me to keep my eye on them in case these guys 23 start shooting or anything . 24 25 So I kept my eye on them . They were throwing gang signs or whatever . At first I seen the one individual , the guy on the passenger seat, SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 28 1 throw a hood over his head . 2 head , he like started acting like he goin' do somethin ' or 3 whatever . So I'm like, you know, I'm saying to myself who is 4 this guy. So I happened to have a hood as well , so I put my 5 hood on and I'm trying to act like , you know , what , you know , 6 what you wanna do, you put your hood on, I put my hood on. 7 You know, what 's going on? 8 9 10 11 And when he put the hood over his So anyway , the light happened to turn green and that 's when we took off. Q. Okay . The shooting started to occur . I'm going to stop you there and ask you a few questions . 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. Do you remember what street corner you were at? 14 A. I think it was Logan and -- umm, umm -- 15 Q. If the police report said it was Logan and 16 Milwaukee , would you have any reason to dispute that ? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Was there lighting around the corner? 19 A. Yes, there 's street lights. 20 Q. Were they on that night ? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you recall , was that a four -way intersection 23 24 25 or were there multiple streets that came together there ? A. I believe there is like a one-way and a two-way going across . SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 29 1 Q. (Nods head .) 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 Q. And can you describe the neighborhood around 4 that ? Was it residential or business ? 5 A. I would say residential . 6 Q. Did you see any people around there when you 7 guys were stopped at the light ? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Do you recall which street you were actually 10 driving on? Were you actually on Logan Street? 11 A. We were actually on Logan , yeah. 12 Q. Do you recall which direction you were going ? 13 A. We were going the direction like (indicating ). 14 I'm not sure . 15 whatever . I'm not good with my south, west , east , 16 Q. That 's fair enough . 17 A. Yeah . 18 Q. Besides the car that did the shooting , do you 19 recall if there were any other cars stopped at the stop light? 20 A. 21 us. 22 left -hand side . 23 24 25 Well , just -- there might have been cars behind I'm not sure. My attention was on the car on my Q. How many lanes was Logan Street that you were A. I would say maybe around four lanes going one on? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 30 1 way. 2 3 Going -- Q. Were there two in each direction or were there four in each direction ? 4 A. Like one, two, three , four, going 5 straightforward . 6 (indicating ), you know, traffic going both ways . Then there was a cross street that was 7 Q. Which lane was your car in? 8 A. We were like in the -- from the left, maybe the 9 third lane . 10 11 Q. Do you know which gang controlled that neighborhood ? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you know at the time ? 14 A. If I knew at the time? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. Well , I knew there was like maybe a few gangs 17 Do you know if you knew at the time ? there maybe control led the area , but I'm not sure which gang . 18 Q. So it wasn 't like a big known gang hang out to 20 A. It wasn't a hangout street type -- 21 Q. Where was the other vehicle when you first saw 23 A. On my left -hand side . 24 Q. Was it already stopped at the light ? 25 A. Yes. 19 22 you? it? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 31 1 2 Q. first saw it? 3 4 Q. Do you remember if Macho said anything to you A. Macho had pulled my attention to the He might have just said keep your eye on the car, whatever . 9 10 No. when he pulled your attention to the vehicle ? 7 8 A. vehicle . 5 6 Did you say anything about the vehicle when you Q. Was that car in the immediate lane right to the left of your car? 11 A. Pretty close. 12 Q. How many feet away from you would you say the A. I'm not good with feet and foots and stuff like 13 car was? 14 15 that . I would say it was just maybe side to side . 16 Q. Can you describe that other car for me? 17 A. Umm, it was like a dark blue . 18 Park Avenue . 19 Q. 20 I think it was a A dark blue Park Avenue I think it was. You said you noticed the windows were tinted before , right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Were they dark tinted or lighter reflective 23 type tint ing? 24 A. It was like a lighter tint. 25 Q. Were the windows up or down on the car when you SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 32 1 saw it? 2 A. Up. 3 Q. You could still see through the tint to see 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did you notice any distinguishing marks about A. No. 4 7 8 9 inside it? the car? I just -- my attention was mostly on the individuals in the car. 10 Q. Did you notice anything about the tires ? 11 A. They had like some hubcaps , spokes . 12 Q. Did you notice how many doors the car had? 13 A. A four -door . 14 Q. Did you see the license plate ? 15 A. No. 16 Q. How many people did you see in the other car? 17 A. I would say three people . 18 Q. Okay . I'm going to ask you to describe each 19 one for me. 20 a description of the passenger ? 21 Let's start with the passenger . A. Can you give me Not too good of a description because of the 22 tinted window. 23 Umm, I know they were Hispanic . I couldn 't tell if he had a mustache or not. 24 Q. How about the driver ? 25 A. I would say he was Hispanic as well . SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 33 1 2 Q. And the third person in the car, where was that person sitting ? 3 A. In the back seat. 4 Q. Were you able to see that person ? 5 A. My attention was basically on the passenger on 6 the front seat of the vehicle . 7 much attention to the back seat . I really wasn 't -- not too 8 Q. You said the passenger had a hood . 9 A. Yeah . 10 Q. Was he wearing a hooded sweatshirt ? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What color was that ? 13 A. I'm not sure. 14 Q. I know it's been a few years . Correct ? It might have been black . Is it possible 15 you knew at the time and now you just don't really remember 16 what color it was? 17 A. I don't remember what color it was. 18 Q. And you said that you saw people in the other 19 car throwing gang signs . Right ? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you see all three of them throwing gang A. Like I said , I was just focusing on the Q. You definitely saw the passenger throwing gang 22 signs ? 23 24 25 passenger . SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 34 1 signs ? 2 A. Yeah . 3 Q. And it's possible the other two were throwing 4 gang signs ? 5 A. (No response .) 6 Q. Or you just don't know ? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. Do you remember what gang signs they were A. Well , he was throwing down the crown. 9 throwing ? 10 11 Which is the Latin King hand signal . 12 Q. You mean the crown was the Latin King gang 14 A. Yeah . 15 Q. Correct ? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What does throwing down the crown mean ? 18 A. It means just like a disrespect to the Kings . 19 Q. Earlier you had said the general purpose of 13 symbol ? 20 hand signals is to -- I don't remember . 21 identify yourself . I think you said to Correct ? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And so is it possible then to represent 24 25 yourself as friendly to others using gang hand symbols ? A. Well , the reason for the signal is just to know SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 35 1 what gang you're in. 2 different hands signals . 3 Q. You know ? Different gangs have It's just to identify . So you could identify yourself as friendly to 4 another gang ? 5 Latin Kings on the street and you put the crown up -- You know , if you saw another neighborhood of 6 A. Yeah . 7 Q. -- that would identify you as friendly to them ? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Correct ? 10 A. Yeah . 11 Q. However if you saw a group of another gang , or 12 a group of Latin Kings, and you put the crown down , that would 13 be antagonistic to them ? 14 A. What 's that mean? 15 Q. Sure . 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And had anyone in your car shown them the crown 16 19 That means like enemies or not friends of them . with your hands to identify yourselves as Kings ? 20 A. No, we didn 't identify ourselves as Kings. 21 Q. Was it common for people to throw the crown 22 23 down , to a, you know , a carful of people who they didn 't know? A. Well , like I said before , there is many gangs 24 and I would say the majority of gangs in Chicago don't like 25 the Kings and that 's their way of showing disrespect or to SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 36 1 identify who the person may be. 2 gang signal up or -- it could be anyone , even a woman in a 3 car, and an individual might throw it down to her thinking she 4 might be a part of a gang or whatever . 5 crazy . 6 7 Q. A. 12 Did you see -- did you see if he was making any He was basically just throwing the crown down. Disrespect ing in other words . 10 11 It's just -- it's other signs besides throwing the crown down ? 8 9 Even if you don't throw a Q. this . Did you see -- well , well , let's start with Did you make any hand signals back at that car? A. I'm not -- I don't recall me throwing a hand 13 signal , but I do remember I put my hoodie on. 14 on as well . 15 16 17 18 I put my hood Yeah , I put my hood on, but I don't think I threw no gang signals . Q. Do you know if anyone else in your car threw any gang signals ? If Nuni or Macho did? 19 A. No, I don't know. 20 Q. Did they , or specifically the passenger , did he 21 continue to throw signs for the entire time you were stopped 22 at the red light ? 23 A. Well , from the point where I got my attention 24 to where Macho , you know , pointing me to the attention of the 25 vehicle , I tried to keep my eye on them because their behavior SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 37 1 that he was showing . 2 kept my eye on him. 3 like a bad, you know , bad ass. 4 show off, tough guy, whatever . So I looked at him as threatened . So I And he was just basically trying to act In other words, like trying to 5 Q. Were the window s in your car up or down ? 6 A. Up. 7 Q. And then you said once the light turned green, 8 then the shooting started . Correct ? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did you see if anyone in the other car reached 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you see the gun before the shooting 15 A. No. 16 Q. Do you know if anyone else in your car saw the 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Did you hear anyone in the car say anything ? 11 14 17 20 for a gun? started ? gun? You know, like there 's a gun, or anything like that? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did you see how many people in the other car 24 A. No. 25 Q. And what did Macho do? 23 had guns? He was driving , SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 38 1 correct ? 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 Q. What did he do when the shooting started ? 4 A. Well , when the shooting started , I ducked down . 5 I wasn 't sure how close they were to our vehicle . 6 many shots hit the vehicle . 7 shooting . 8 9 I heard It was like non-stop , the At one point I tried to grab the steering wheel from Macho and try to turn it toward s the direction of the other 10 car that was shooting at us, so that maybe it would throw them 11 off from shooting at us. 12 the other way, towards the right. 13 going down a two-way street which was Wright wood Street . When I did that, he jerked the wheel At that point we ended up 14 Q. So you were driving down Wrightwood Street ? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you know how many shots you heard? 17 A. Wow, it was many. 18 Q. You said you heard -- you said you heard many 19 shots . Lots of shots . Do you know if the shots were hitting your car? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. How do you know that ? 22 A. Well , the windows were coming down , you could 23 hear it going all through inside the car, through the metal 24 and everything . 25 Q. At the time the shooting was going on, did you SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 39 1 know whether anyone in your car was hit? 2 A. No, I didn 't know if anyone was hit. 3 Q. Could you hear anyone yelling as the shots were 4 5 going on, either in your car or from the other car? A. Well , it was just like a -- it was like a 6 moment as far as like shock, and at the same time like freaked 7 out as far as -- you know , maybe like I ducked down or, you 8 know , like -- I really can't recall as far as what was being 9 said , but everyone was basically trying to take cover . 10 11 Q. Yeah . And so you said then your car turned down Wrightwood Street. Correct ? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Were they still shooting when you turned on 14 Wrightwood Street? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And did the other car turn down Wrightwood 17 18 19 20 21 Street with you? A. Yes, I would say so because when we turned on Wrightwood Street, the bullets kept hitting the car. Q. And how far driving down Wrightwood Street did the bullets continue hitting the car? 22 A. 23 next street . 24 was the last point as far as them shooting at us. 25 Q. Well , to the next street . I would say to the The first street we ran into , I would say that Did you see where the other car or if the other SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 40 1 car went somewhere after the shooting stopped ? 2 3 A. No. I was basically on the bottom of the front seat taking cover. 4 Q. Do you recall which direction your car went 5 then after you said you went down Wrightwood ? 6 if you turned right or left? Do you remember 7 A. On Wright wood we made a right turn . 8 Q. Okay . 9 Do you remember where you went immediately after Wrightwood , which direction ? 10 A. We turned down Wrightwood . He had went down 11 Wright wood and turned on the first street, making a right 12 turn . 13 Q. Where did you ultimately go after the shooting ? 14 A. (No response .) 15 Q. Or what happened next? 16 A. Well , I don't think it was the first street , 17 but I think it was the first big street we had made a right 18 turn . 19 that , we had made a right turn . 20 after that ? 21 going straight . I'm not sure if it was maybe Kimball or something like 22 23 24 25 Which way the vehicle went It might have made a left turn , might have went I'm not sure . Q. Did you later find out someone in your car had A. Well , Macho had, after making the right turn , been hurt ? Macho had said they 're gone. And we went into an alley , went SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 41 1 in and reversed out and headed back the direction we was in. 2 And he -- he -- he -- he stated are you okay . 3 on myself to see if I am bleeding or anything . 4 I'm okay. 5 And I'm feel ing I said yeah , Then I looked towards the back seat to actual ly, to 6 ask Nuni if he's okay . 7 bent over , forward , and he didn 't say anything . 8 him back some. 9 went back and then just nodded back forward . And he was just like crunched up, like So I moved I pushed him back some and then his head like And when it 10 nodded forward , I saw that he had like a, had like a -- it 11 look ed like he had a cut on the side of his head . 12 Q. Did Nuni ever respond to you? 13 A. No. 14 Q. And what did you do when you realized that Nuni 15 had been shot? 16 A. I was -- I was shocked . That he wasn 't 17 responding and -- from, from where I saw that he was shot -- I 18 was really shocked . 19 at him and see if he could get any of my attention , but he -- 20 he -- he was just gone. I was trying to like wake him and scream You know ? 21 Q. Did you and Macho try and get Nuni some help ? 22 A. Yeah . Immediately after he wouldn 't respond or 23 anything , I told Macho let's go to a hospital as quick as 24 possible . 25 head towards the closest hospital possible , and we were And so we did. And what we did was we tried to SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 42 1 stopped by a police officer . 2 stopped . 3 trying to rush to a hospital , to a near hospital . 4 5 On Fullerton and Logan , we were We were beating red lights , stop signs , everything , Q. And how long was this after the shooting that you guys stopped for the police officer ? 6 A. Within a few minutes . 7 Q. Do you remember the name of the officer ? 8 A. No. 9 It was a blue and white officer . I don't know his name. 10 Q. Can you give a physical description of him? 11 A. No. 12 Q. And did an ambulance come to the scene ? 13 A. Yes, an ambulance . 14 Q. Did they take Nuni to the hospital ? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did other police vehicles come to the scene ? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. How many ? 19 A. I would say many. 20 Q. Do you know how long it took , you know , for all 21 Many of them. these other vehicles to come to the scene? 22 A. Police officers ? 23 Q. Yeah . 24 A. Within minutes . 25 Q. Did you and Macho talk to officers at the SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 43 1 scene ? 2 A. Yeah , we talked to the officer that had pulled 3 us over . 4 the car and all the bullet holes in the side . 5 them we're trying to get to the nearest hospital , we have just 6 been shot at and my friend is possibly losing his life at the 7 moment , so we're trying to get him to the hospital . 8 point he said just park the car and get out of the car and all 9 that . 10 And we told I don't know . Q. Whatever . Did you talk to officers at the scene about the 12 shooting after Nuni had been taken to the hospital ? 13 remain on the scene ? 14 At that And I guess he called the ambulance and backup , whatever . 11 He wanted to know why all the windows were off of A. Yes, I remained on the scene . Did you I went to make a 15 quick phone call . 16 just been shot at and we were pulled over at the moment and 17 Nuni is maybe passed away . 18 situation at that point and what was going on. 19 20 23 And I just told her what was my Q. I'm sorry , where did you go to make that phone A. There was a laundromat that was right on the Q. And then after you made your phone call did you call ? 21 22 I called the house and I told my mom we had corner . 24 speak with the officers about what had happened with the 25 shooting at the scene ? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 44 1 A. Well , they asked questions , what happened , 2 where was the shooting taken place . 3 shooting at them . They asked if we were They asked several questions . 4 Q. 5 were shooting at them ? 6 A. We said no. 7 Q. Did they ask you for a description of the 8 What did you tell them when they asked if you people that shot at you? 9 A. They asked what kind of a vehicle it was. 10 asked what -- is there any gang members maybe . 11 possibly it was some gang members . 12 them . We said They asked me if I knowed I said no, I don't know them . 13 14 Q. Do you recall if you gave them any sort of description of any of the people in the vehicle ? 15 A. I don't recall . 16 Q. Is it possible you did and you just don't 17 They recall it today ? 18 A. Yeah . 19 Q. Did you speak with the officers voluntarily at 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And where did you talk to them at? 20 23 the scene ? you inside the car, outside the car. I mean were Do you remember ? 24 A. Both , in and outside the car. 25 Q. Were you told you are being arrested when you SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 45 1 were put inside the car? 2 A. 3 questioning . 4 Q. About the shooting that had just taken place ? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Do you recall which officer told you that ? 7 I was told I was being taken in for that the initial officer you talked to or a different officer ? 8 A. It was a different officer . 9 Q. Do you recall that officer 's name ? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Do you recall what he looked like ? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you ever find out if anyone in the other 14 car was injured as a result of the shooting ? 15 A. In the car that was -- firing at us? 16 Q. Yeah , swerving or driving , did you ever find 17 Was out if anyone in that car was injured ? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did you later learn that the occupants of the 20 other car were gang members ? 21 A. Way down the line , I found out. 22 Q. Which gang did you find out they were members A. If I'm not mistaken , they said they were 23 of? 24 25 Gang sters . Or -- SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 46 1 Q. Which Gangsters ? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you know which neighborhood they were out 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did you previously know members of that gang ? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Do you know if the Imperial Gangsters are Folks 10 A. They 're Folks . 11 Q. Were Imperial Gangsters -- you know what? 12 Strike that . 4 9 13 14 The Imperial Gangsters ? of? or People ? We have already talked about that . Before the shooting did you ever know anyone named Hector Montanez that went by the name Lil Hector ? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Before the shooting did you ever know anyone by 17 18 19 20 21 the name of Thomas Sierra who went by the name Junito ? A. No, but I learned of the name afterwards , later on down in the case . Q. So the night of the shooting did you go with the officers to the police station to answer more questions ? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And where did you go? 24 A. To I think it was the police station . 25 Q. If the police report indicated that was at SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 47 1 Grand and Central , would you have any reason to dispute that ? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Do you recall when you -- well , do you remember 4 what time it was when you arrived at the police station ? 5 A. No, I don't know the hour . 7 Q. Probably late in the evening ? 8 A. It was getting pretty late. 9 Q. Where did you go when you went inside the 6 10 11 12 I don't remember the time. police station ? A. We went into a -- like a little room or something like that . 13 Q. Can you describe the room ? 14 A. It was like -- almost like an office type room . 15 Q. Was there any furniture in the room ? 16 A. No, I don't think so. 17 Q. Were there chairs ? 18 A. Maybe chairs. 19 Q. Was Macho with you when you went into the room ? 20 A. I don't think so. 21 22 23 Maybe a table . I think they questioned us one by one. Q. I apologize , let me back up. Do you recall if Macho was with you when you drove to the police station ? 24 A. Yeah . 25 Q. Were you handcuffed in that interview room ? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 48 1 A. I don't remember . 2 Q. Do you remember if the door was locked ? 3 A. The door to -- 4 Q. The door to the interview room . 5 A. I don't remember . 6 Q. Do you recall if you ever asked to use the rest 7 room or anything like that ? 8 A. No. 9 Q. And did you talk to officers in that interview 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you recall the names of the people that you 14 A. No. 15 Q. That 's fine , and, you know, I'm going to ask 10 13 room ? talked to? I'm not too good with names . 16 for every officer that you talked to. 17 fine . If you remember , that 's If you don't, I know it's been a long time . 18 A. Okay . 19 Q. Do you recall what they looked like ? 20 A. No. 21 Q. If I told you the police report stated you 22 talked to Detect ive McMurray and Wojcik , would you have any 23 reason to dispute that? 24 25 A. been . I don't remember the name or -- it might have I don't know . SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 49 1 Q. And what did you tell the officers ? Or what 2 did you discuss with the officers when you were in that 3 interview room ? 4 A. Well , he said that -- he asked if we were 5 shooting back at the car and where the shooting took place . 6 We said -- I said no, you know , we weren 't shooting back. 7 said that he had been down there and he found two different 8 caliber shell casings at the scene . 9 to have been shooting back at these individuals . He And he asked you guys had And we said 10 nah, we weren't shooting at them; I don't know where you might 11 have got that we were shooting at them . 12 vehicle , and our vehicle is just flooded with gun holes and 13 everything . 14 other vehicle . 15 You can look at our So we couldn 't have been possibly shooting at the And he asked how it started and stuff like that . 16 I got, if I seen the individual , what kind of car it was, 17 describe the car, kind of rims , kind of color of the car, 18 stuff like that . 19 did we start anything with them . 20 questions . 21 22 Q. Why, why they started , why were we a target, You know , them type of And were you truthful when you gave the answers to the police officers that night ? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Just give me one second . 25 If Did you view any books of photographs while you were at the police station on SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 50 1 the night of the shooting ? 2 A. 3 photographs . 4 Q. Would you say a hundred ? 5 A. Close . 6 Q. And how were the photographs contained ? 7 A. It was like something like an album type. 8 Q. Did the officers tell you which people in those 9 I believe we looked at many , lots and lots of books were suspects ? 10 A. Umm, no. 11 Q. Did the officers tell you who to choose out of 12 those books on the night of the shooting ? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did the officers threaten you to pick somebody 15 out of those books? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did they try to coerce you in some way to pick 18 somebody out of those books? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did they make any promises to you if you would 21 choose somebody out of those books ? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Were you able to identify anybody from the 24 25 books you looked at that night ? A. I don't think I identified anyone at that SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 51 1 point . 2 3 Q. Where were you at in the station when you looked at the books ? Were you still in that interview room ? 4 A. I think so, yes. 5 Q. What happened after you talked to the officers 6 then looked at the photos ? 7 A. Well , I was just looking through all the photos 8 and I told him none of these individuals looks like the 9 person . So he gave me like a bundle of pictures also . 10 think there was a rubber band over them . 11 these. 12 can't identify anyone at that point . 13 14 I And he said look at I'm just looking through them and I told him I still Q. And did you go home then after you talked to the police and looked at the photos ? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you have any other conversation with the 17 police officers that we haven 't discussed that night ? 18 A. No. 19 Q. And how did you get home ? 20 A. I think they dropped us off. 21 They might have dropped us off. 22 23 24 25 I'm not sure . Q. Do you remember what time it was when you got A. I think it was like maybe 1:00, 2:00 in the home ? morning , something like that maybe . SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 52 1 Q. When did you find out that Nuni had passed ? 2 A. At the point where we had turned , we had made 3 4 5 6 that last right turn on Wrightwood . Q. Oh, so you knew before the police were on the scene that Nuni was dead ? A. Well , like I said , from the -- the gunshot 7 wound in the head, you know. 8 away , he got shot in the head . 9 because he wasn 't answering my questions or anything when I I had a brother that passed I assumed he was already gone 10 was asking him you all right , or, you know , how you feel. 11 I figured he was already gone . 12 Q. Okay . Okay . So So back to I guess the police 13 station on the night of the incident . 14 the statements you made to the Chicago police officers on the 15 night of the shooting ? 16 A. Have we discussed it today? 17 Q. Uh-huh. 18 19 20 I apologize . Have we discussed all Yes, that 's correct . Yeah , broke my own rule there . A. Well , they asked me if I had a description of the person . 21 Q. Okay . 22 A. And I told them that the person was like a 23 Latino looking person . 24 this person . 25 got a pretty all right glance of the individual . And? And they said how did you get to see And I said , well , when the car was stopped , I SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 53 1 2 Q. Did you tell them you got a pretty all right glance , or did you tell them you saw the person ? 3 A. I might have told them I saw the person . 4 Q. Okay . 5 A. Yeah . 6 Q. Okay . 7 A. And he said that he might have -- oh, what did 8 he say? 9 crime . 10 He said he might have the people who had did the So I'm like you do? He's like yes. He had to bring me back to the police station . 11 Q. Wait a minute . I apologize . Are you talking 12 about something that happened after the shooting , after the 13 night of the shooting ? 14 A. Yeah . Q. Let me revert my question . 15 16 The night of the shooting I didn 't pick anybody . Have we talked 17 about all the statements you made to Chicago police officers 18 on the night of the shooting , just on the night of the 19 shooting , at the police station ? 20 forward and talk about the next chunk, you know , the next time 21 you talked to police officers . 22 before we go on that we have talked about everything that 23 happened on the night of the shooting . Because then I'm going to go I want to make sure that 24 Now, of course , if you remember something later , you 25 know , please say okay I forgot this also happened the night of SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 54 1 the shooting . 2 A. Okay . 3 Q. But almost like a book , so I can close the 4 chapter on the night of the shooting , have we talked about 5 everything you talked to police officers about on the night of 6 the shooting ? 7 A. Okay . I think that was it. After them 8 pictures I had looked at and I couldn't identify anyone at 9 that point . 10 Q. Okay . All right. Now we are going to go on. 11 And my next question would be did you subsequently speak with 12 police officers about the shooting a few days later? 13 A. Yes. There was a phone call . It was said for 14 us, for me to go to the police station in regard to the 15 shooting to look at some pictures . 16 17 Q. Do you remember if the police officers ever came to your home after the shooting ? 18 A. They might have . I can't recall , but maybe 19 they did. 20 been so much running around with police , and it's like I'm 21 trying to focus just on this time because -- I think they might have did. It's just that I have 22 Q. Sure . 23 A. I have been harassed many times, you know , 24 25 before , and I'm just trying to pinpoint this actual -- Q. Okay . SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 55 1 A. -- of what happened . 2 Q. Did the police harass you regarding this 4 A. No. 5 Q. You subsequently , and we are going to talk 3 incident ? 6 about this in more detail later , but you gave testimony in 7 this case in court. Correct ? 8 A. Uh-huh, yes. 9 Q. Do you recall testifying that police officers 10 came to your house on May 25th, which was two days after the 11 shooting ? 12 13 14 15 A. They might have came . remember too good. Q. But I would say they might have came. If I showed you your testimony and let you read it, do you think that would help refresh your memory ? 16 A. Maybe . 17 Q. Okay . 18 Like I said , I don't I'm going to go ahead and do that. Liz, I'm going to show him what I am going to 19 mark as Exhibits 1 and 2. 20 through RG 2845 , and that is his trial testimony . Exhibit 1 is Bates stamped RG 2774 21 MS. MAZUR : Okay . 22 MS. WHITE : And Exhibit 2 is going to be RG 3176 23 through 3199 , and that is his motion to suppress testimony . 24 MS. MAZUR : Okay . 25 MS. WHITE : Can I please ask you to mark these SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 56 1 Exhibit 1 and 2? 2 sit and read them. 3 here . 4 through . So we are not going to be doing anything In fact we will go off the record while he reads them 5 6 And Liz, I'm going to give him some time to MS. MAZUR : Okay , that will be good . I'm going to step away from my desk for no more than three minutes . 7 MS. WHITE : That 's fine . Oh, wait . Liz? Wait . 8 has a quick question here , and I don't want to answer it 9 without you. 10 MS. MAZUR : Okay , that's okay . 11 MS. WHITE : Go ahead . 12 THE WITNESS : 13 MS. WHITE : 14 fair . Okay ? He My reading ain't too good , so -Okay . Liz, scratch that . That 's fine . That's totally Can we go off the record? 15 (Off-the-record discussion .) 16 (Brief recess taken at 10:33 a.m.) 17 (Back on the record at 10:37 a.m.) 18 MS. MAZUR : I'm back . 19 MS. WHITE : Okay , Liz? He's decide d he is not going 20 to read them . 21 exhibits , so we are not going to attach them at this point as 22 exhibits . 23 generally . Mr. Rodriguez is not going to read through the We're just going to discuss them , you know , 24 MS. MAZUR : Okay . 25 MS. WHITE : Okay ? And I -- we can go back off the SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 57 1 record . 2 (Off-the-record discussion .) 3 4 MS. WHITE : Liz, are you all set if we get back to 6 MS. MAZUR : Yeah , sure. 7 MS. WHITE : Okay . 5 it? 8 much longer here . 9 BY MS. WHITE : 10 11 Q. Hopefully we shouldn 't be too too Are we ready ? Let's go back on record . Do you recall you stated earlier you recall providing court testimony in this case ? Correct ? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And do you recall testifying twice in this case A. Not that I know of. 17 Q. Okay . 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And is it possible that you testified another 14 in court? 15 16 20 I might have remembered one time. time prior to trial ? 21 A. Maybe . 22 Q. Okay . Would that one time be at the trial ? On August 20, 1996 ? I'm not sure . If I say there was a transcript of your 23 testimony on that date, would you have any reason to dispute 24 that you gave testimony on that date ? 25 A. No. SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 58 1 Q. And if I -- I know you said you don't 2 specifically recall testifying on that date , but have you ever 3 testified in court and not told the truth? 4 A. No. 5 Q. So every time you have ever testified in court 6 you have told the truth ? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Would you ever lie while testifying in court ? 9 A. I would not -- I wouldn 't want to lie. 10 I don't think there should be a reason why to lie. 11 Q. Okay . If I told you that your testimony on 12 this date , August 20th, that during your testimony on 13 August 20th and also during your trial testimony you stated 14 that officers came to your house on August 25th, which is two 15 days after the shooting -- I'm sorry , I apologize -- May 25th, 16 two days after the shooting to talk to you, does that refresh 17 your recollection as to whether police officers came to your 18 house ? 19 A. I believe they might have came to the house . 20 Q. Do you know how many officers came to your 22 A. No. 23 Q. Can you provide a physical description of any 21 24 25 house ? of the officers ? A. No. SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 59 1 2 Q. Do you recall if anyone else was present when you talked to the officers ? 3 A. No. 4 Q. And that being no, meaning you don't recall if 5 anyone else was present ? 6 7 A. officers came there . 8 9 I really don't recall the actual time when the Q. Okay . When is the next time you do recall talking to police officers ? 10 A. When I went to see the vehicle , to see the 11 vehicle that was in the shooting . 12 Grand Central . 13 Q. I had went back to the Is that the time you were discussing earlier 14 when there was a phone call where someone told you to come to 15 the police station ? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And do you recall the date that you went to the 18 police station ? 19 A. No. 20 Q. If the police report stated that was May 30, 21 1995 , which would be about a week after the shooting , would 22 you have any reason to dispute that ? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you talk to the officer who called you on 25 the phone ? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 60 1 2 A. Yeah . He asked me to come down to the station and he wanted to talk or ask questions . 3 Q. Do you remember how you got to the police 5 A. No, I don't remember . 6 Q. Do you remember the name of the officer who 4 7 station ? called you? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Do you remember if -- well, strike that . 10 anybody go to the police station with you? 11 12 17 18 19 20 I think there was someone with me, but I can't Q. Do you know if Macho went with you to the police station ? 15 16 A. remember . 13 14 Did A. already . He might have been there when I got there I'm not sure. Q. Do you remember who you talked to when you got to the station ? A. I know there was -- I'm not sure if it was a homicide detect ive or -- 21 Q. So it was a detective , not a uniformed officer ? 22 A. Yes, it was a detect ive. 23 Q. But you don't remember his name? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Do you remember if there were more than one SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 61 1 detect ive? 2 3 No, I don't remember if there was more than Q. Do you remember where you talk ed to the one. 4 5 A. officers , or excuse me, the detectives in the police station ? 6 A. Well , when I got to the station , he asked me if 7 I -- if I can identify the vehicle . 8 the parking lot. 9 vehicle . He says it's somewhere in And we were walking around looking for the And I said the only vehicle I see that looks like 10 it, I pointed to a vehicle which was a Park Avenue 98. 11 it was a four-door vehicle , like a dark blue , same hubcaps , a 12 spoke hubcap . 13 different on the vehicle than the one that had shot at us. 14 And he said what 's different . 15 tinted windows . 16 just like the car other than the tinted windows . 17 18 Q. But I told him there is one thing that 's I said, well , it don't have any And he said this is the car. Okay . I said , looks And, umm -- Do you remember how many cars there were in the parking lot? 19 A. Wow, parking lot was like full . 20 Q. So we're talking maybe a hundred cars ? 21 A. I wouldn 't say a hundred . 22 I know I would say maybe like fifty cars , something like that . 23 Q. Was Macho with you looking at the cars ? 24 A. Like I said , I'm not sure if Macho was there . 25 Q. Oh, you are not even sure if Macho was at the SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 62 1 station that day? 2 A. Yeah . 3 Q. So it's possible he could have been there? 4 A. He possibly could have been there . 5 Q. Or it's possible he was not? 6 A. Right . 7 Q. Do you recall , besides the things that you just Or? 8 told me that you told the officer about the car that you 9 identified , do you recall any other conversation s you had in 10 the parking lot or on your way to the parking lot? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you recall how many officers accompanied you 13 to the parking lot? 14 A. No. 15 Q. And when you say the parking lot, that 's the 16 parking lot of the police station , correct ? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. So did you tell the officer then other than the 19 tinted windows , you know , did you make an identification of 20 the car, that that was the car? 21 A. Can you repeat the question ? 22 Q. Sure . Other than the tinted window s, did you 23 tell the officer other than the tinted windows this is the car 24 that was involved in the shooting ? 25 A. Yeah , I told him that has to be the car other SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 63 1 than the tinted windows . 2 Q. Did the officer , any of the officers that were 3 with you, tell you which car to choose before you chose that 4 car? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did they threaten you with which car to choose ? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did they promise you anything if you chose a 9 certain car? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did they coerce you in any way in regard to 12 which car to choose ? 13 A. No. 14 Q. On that date when you were at the police 15 station , or any time before that, do you recall if you ever 16 looked at pictures for a second time ? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay . 19 A. They showed me some more pictures and he had Tell me about that . 20 asked me if -- if any of the individuals looked like the 21 person or whatever , and I'm not sure if, if it was at that 22 point I identified the individual . 23 picture , or it might have been a line-up. 24 not sure how I identified the person . 25 Q. Okay . But I had showed 'em a I'm not sure . I don't remember . I am going to draw your attention to SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES I'm 64 1 your trial testimony which , Liz, I'm going to be looking at 2 Bates stamped pages RG 2797 and -- I think it's just going to 3 be 2797 and 2798, which is marked as Pages 109 and 110 of his 4 trial testimony . 5 6 MS. MAZUR : Okay , thank you. BY MS. WHITE : 7 Q. I'm going to read this to you and just see if 8 it refreshes your recollection about whether or not you looked 9 at photos . 10 A. Okay . 11 Q. Okay ? He gave me -- you stated, "He gave me 12 some photos and I laid them down on the table to go through 13 them ." 14 Question : 15 Answer : 16 Question : 17 Answer : 18 Question : 19 Yes. You said how many were there . Around six or seven . Did you look at the front or backs of those pictures . 20 Answer : 21 Question : 22 Did you go through these pictures . Front . After looking at those picture s did you recognize anybody . 23 Answer : 24 Question : Yes. Who was that . 25 SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 65 1 Answer : 2 Question : 3 The shooter . Is that the defendant who you pointed out earlier ? 4 And there was some objection and you said -- you 5 know what ? 6 that question . 7 I'm sorry . Next question : Then there were some objection s to The person you identified in the 8 picture -- I'm sorry , the series of pictures , did the police 9 tell you to pick that person . 10 Answer : 11 Did they point at the picture while you were looking 12 No. at it? 13 No. 14 How long did you look at those pictures before you 15 picked out the picture of the person you thought did the 16 shooting ? 17 A couple of minutes . 18 So my question is, did that refresh your 19 recollection as to whether or not you ever looked at 20 photographs ? 21 A. Well , I said I had looked at some photographs 22 the second time I had went down there. 23 sure if it was a photograph or a line-up. 24 25 Q. Like I said, I wasn 't Let me tell you, I don't want to interrupt you, even though I just read you part of your trial testimony -- SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 66 1 A. Yeah . 2 Q. -- I want your testimony here today to be what 3 you remember today. 4 A. Okay . 5 Q. So if I read that to you and it kinda makes a 6 light bulb go off and you go, oh, now I do remember that, 7 that 's fine . 8 don't remember it, that 's fine too. 9 and guess at and just be copying your testimony before . 10 11 12 If I read you that and you go, hey, I still I don't want you to try A. That 's why I asked . Q. Let me ask again then. It might have been one or the other . After reading that , do 13 you have a memory as you sit here today of definitely looking 14 at pictures with the police officers ? 15 16 A. Do I have a memory of looking at pictures with the officers ? 17 Q. Correct . 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay . 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you remember whether or not if you 22 23 identified anyone in those pictures with the police officers ? A. I know I had identified someone . It might have 24 been with the photos . 25 harassed so many times and taken for line-ups and all type of Like I said , I have been arrested and SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 67 1 stuff , and it's just -- it's just going over here and going 2 over there , and I'm trying to focus here . 3 say yes and then I'm going to a different event . 4 So I'm trying to be precise . 5 6 Q. That 's fair , that 's fair . And I don't want to You know ? And I appreciate that you are trying very hard to be truthful and clear . 7 A. Yeah . 8 Q. Direct ing your attention to that trial 9 10 testimony that you gave , do you remember if you were under oath the day you gave your testimony at trial ? 11 A. I believe I was. 12 Q. Did you tell the truth when you gave your 13 testimony at trial? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. When you gave your testimony at trial , that was 16 within a few months of the shooting , correct ? 17 I have the date here . 18 testimony in front of you? I don't know if Liz, do you have the date of the trial 19 MS. MAZUR : No, I don't. 20 MS. WHITE : I do, and I could go looking for it. I'm sorry . 21 But I'm sure it was within a few months of trial . 22 BY MS. WHITE : 23 Q. Okay . Would you agree your memory of the shooting , 24 would you agree your memory was stronger about the shooting 25 and the investigation at the time you gave your trial SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 68 1 testimony than now? 2 A. Yes, my memory was stronger . 3 Q. Okay . So to the extent that either you don't 4 remember something at all today or your memory today conflicts 5 with your previous testimony , would you agree that your 6 previous testimony is probably more likely accurate ? 7 A. Yes, it's accurate . 8 Q. All right . 9 And even you said that you don't remember giving testimony at another time, that being your 10 Motion to Suppress testimony that we discussed earlier , 11 correct ? 12 A. I didn 't understand the question . 13 Q. Sure . 14 You said you don't remember giving testimony any other time in this case. Correct ? 15 A. Right , other than the trial . 16 Q. Okay . But you testified that if you would have 17 given testimony at another time , that it would have been 18 truthful as well ? 19 A. It might have been , yes. 20 Q. Same question . Would you also then agree if 21 you gave truthful testimony on August 20, 1996 (sic?), which 22 was three months after the shooting , it's more likely that 23 your memory was stronger at that time too? 24 25 A. Maybe . It should be. Correct ? It's just that it has been so long and so many incidents just flashing in my head . SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 69 1 2 Q. That 's fine . That 's fine . Do you remember whether you attended a line-up in this case ? 3 A. No, I don't. I don't. I'm not really -- I 4 can't remember if it was a line -up. 5 might have been the pictures or it might have been the 6 line -up. 7 8 Like I said before , it I'm not sure. Q. But you do remember that at some time you identified somebody in this case as the shooter , correct ? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And when you made that identification , do you 11 remember if the police officers threatened you in any way to 12 make that identification ? 13 14 15 16 A. No. I believe I would have remembered something like that . Q. Do you think you would have remembered if they had told you who to choose when you made the identification ? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you remember any of the officers who you 19 I'll say dealt with or talked to during this investigation , do 20 you remember any of their names ? 21 A. Wow, I'm not really too good with names . 22 Q. Can you remember a physical description of any 23 24 25 of the officers who you worked with in this investigation ? A. I know there was a Hispanic cop I talked to. And I don't know -- maybe a couple other officers , maybe some SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 70 1 white officer s. 2 white officers . 3 Q. I don't know , I would say there might be I want to talk to you about the Hispanic cop. 4 Can you remember any specific times that you talked to him, or 5 do you just remember him generally ? 6 A. I just remember him generally . 7 Q. Do you remember if he spoke Spanish ? 8 know what ? Or you Do you speak Spanish ? 9 A. Yeah . 10 Q. Do you remember hearing him speak Spanish? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you remember what he looked like ? 13 A. I think he had glasses on. 14 15 16 Very little , so on and so forth . I'm not sure if he had black hair . Q. Do you remember if he ever told you who to identify as the shooter ? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you remember if he ever told you -- if he 19 ever threatened you with who to identify as the shooter ? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Do you remember if he ever coerced you or 22 tried to trick you into identifying anyone as the shooter ? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Do you remember if he was the one who showed 25 you the photographs ? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 71 1 A. 2 photographs . 3 Q. It might have been him? 4 A. Yeah , it might have been him. 5 Q. But it might not have been him as well ? 6 A. Right . 7 Q. Do you remember if anything -- is there It might have been him that showed me the 8 anything that you remember that he told you? 9 Strike that . 10 11 You know what ? Do you remember if he ever told you that they had the person prior to you making the identification ? A. I don't know if it was before or after , but I 12 kind of do believe that he said he got the person or they know 13 of the person. 14 15 Q. But you don't remember whether that was before or after you made the identification ? 16 A. No, I don't remember if it was before or after . 17 Q. So it's possible it was after you made the 18 identification ? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Have we discussed everything that you can 21 remember about -- you know what ? 22 remember giving a written statement to police ? Strike that . Do you ever 23 A. I don't think so. 24 Q. Do you ever remember meeting with a state's 25 I can't write . attorney or district attorney at the police station ? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 72 1 A. No. 2 Q. Is it possible that you met with a state's 3 attorney and gave a statement and you just don't recall it as 4 you sit here today? 5 A. It's possible . There is so many people asking 6 questions and -- I really don't know who was who. 7 trying to get to the -- help , whatever I can do, to do their 8 job, you know. 9 Q. I'm just So if the police report talks about you meeting 10 with the state 's attorney and giving a written statement , 11 would you have any reason to dispute that? 12 13 A. don't know what their positions were or anything . 14 15 No, because I know I talked to many people . Q. Okay . I I just -- Did you tell the truth at all times when you were talking to the police regarding this investigation ? 16 A. I don't see why not. 17 Q. Do you recall ever lying to police officers in 18 your involvement in this investigation ? 19 A. No. 20 Q. In fact you were trying to help them 21 investigate the murder of your friend, correct ? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. So you wanted them to find the shooter , A. Yes. 24 25 correct ? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 73 1 Q. And when you did make your identification of 2 the shooter , were you sure that that was the person who you 3 had seen shooting the gun that night ? 4 A. I was pretty sure . 5 Q. How sure were you? 6 A. Umm, I don't know how to -- to describe it, but 7 I was pretty sure it was him. 8 9 Q. You knew you were identifying somebody in a murder investigation , correct ? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you knew there was a possibility he could 12 go to jail for a significant amount of time if he had a murder 13 conviction , correct ? 14 A. Correct . 15 Q. You understood the importance of the 16 identification you were making , correct ? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And with that understanding , you were still 19 sure that that was the shooter ? Correct ? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Have we now discussed everything that you can 22 remember ? 23 remember saying to Chicago police officers involved in the 24 investigation of the shooting , a line-up if you took one, the 25 photo identification , a written statement if you gave one? Ever y conversation , ever y statement you can SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 74 1 Anything you can remember telling them that we have not talked 2 about ? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Is there anything else that you can remember 5 then any Chicago police officers saying to you throughout all 6 of those process es that we have not talked about ? 7 A. No. 8 Q. And specifically with regard to the Hispanic or 9 10 Latino cop who is the only police officer you can remember , have we discussed everything you can remember telling him? 11 A. Just what we talked about today. 12 Q. Have we discussed everything that you can 13 14 remember him saying to you? A. Just , he was -- like I said , I don't know if it 15 was before or after ; he said that he pretty much knows who the 16 individual is. 17 18 Q. Okay . Did he ever tell you who to implicate or who to identify ? 19 A. No. 20 Q. So after the night when you attended the line- 21 up or did the photographs or looked at the vehicles , you think 22 all that happened on the same day, correct ? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do you recall whether you had any other 25 interactions with the police officers about this shooting SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 75 1 after that ? 2 A. No. 3 Q. I'm sorry . 4 didn 't have any other interactions with them ? 5 6 A. I don't think I had any other interactions with Q. Did you ever find out whether or not Macho had them . 7 8 No, you don't recall , or no, you made an identification ? 9 A. I wasn 't sure . 10 Q. Did you ever talk to him about it? 11 A. Yeah , I talked to him about it. He said that 12 he couldn 't help them , whatever , as far as he couldn 't give a 13 good description of the person . 14 that extent . 15 Q. 16 I don't know , something to Did he tell you that he didn 't get a good look at the person? 17 A. In other words , he was just -- he didn 't want 18 to go through -- like in other words , he didn 't want to go 19 through the process of asking the questions and stuff like 20 that . 21 really -- he was actually upset that he had to go through 22 that . 23 like upset . He said he answered them to the best he could . You know , the questioning and all that . 24 Q. Do you know why he was upset ? 25 A. No. SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES He He was just 76 1 2 Q. Do you know if it had anything to do with the fact that there was gang involvement in the shooting ? 3 A. Maybe . Maybe because of the shooting or maybe 4 he might be upset because his vehicle or maybe what happened 5 to Nuni , or -- I don't know. 6 to go. 7 He was like kind of upset . 8 9 He was just like he didn 't want He was upset just going through the questioning thing. Q. Were you under the influence of any drugs when you gave your trial testimony ? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Were you under the influence of any alcohol 12 when you gave your trial testimony ? 13 A. No. 14 Q. How did you get to the courthouse for your 15 trial testimony ? 16 A. I don't remember . 17 Q. Besides the statements we have talked about 18 today , did you ever give any other statements about the 19 shooting to the police officers ? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did you ever give any other statements about 22 the shooting to the state attorney 's office or the 23 prosecutors ? 24 A. Not that I remember . 25 Q. Did you subsequently learn the name of the SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 77 1 person you had identified ? 2 A. I mean I don't got it on my mind , but if I hear 4 Q. Did you learn that his name was Thomas Sierra? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did Thomas Sierra ever ask you to give a 3 7 it -- statement on his behalf ? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did anyone else , including any gang members , 10 I don't think I ever talked to him before . ever ask you to give a statement on his behalf? 11 A. I think I heard of something as far as he 12 wanted -- I think he knew someone that might have known me and 13 he was trying to get me not to come to court , or something 14 like that . 15 Q. That was back before your trial testimony ? 16 A. I think so, yes. 17 Q. This person he knew , was that another gang A. I'm trying to think who the person might have 18 member ? 19 20 been . 21 it was something to the extent that he had gave a message to 22 that individual to pass it on to me to not show up for court , 23 or something to that extent. 24 25 (Pause.) Q. I don't know who the person was, but I know Was that like a threat , not to show up for court ? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 78 1 A. I don't know if it was a threat. But it wasn't 2 brought to my attention as a threat . 3 other words , give him a break type thing , you know . 4 like that . It was just like , in Something 5 Q. Did you ever, did you think about doing that ? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Because Nuni was your friend ? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you know if he ever tried to get a statement 10 from you or anyone on his behalf ever try to get a statement 11 from you after his conviction ? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you know if anyone, either him or anyone on 14 his behalf , ever tried to get Macho not to testify ? 15 A. That I know of, no. 16 Q. Do you know if they ever tried to get Macho to 17 change his identification of him? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you know if anyone else ever signed any 20 statements to try and help get Sierra out of jail ? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you know if there was ever any retaliation 23 by the Latin Kings for the shooting ? 24 A. No. 25 Q. No, you don't know ? Or no, there never was? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 79 1 A. I don't think there ever was. 2 Q. You have heard of retaliation for gang 3 shootings though , correct ? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is that something that would happen after a 6 gang member was killed? 7 A. Well , many times after a member of the 8 organizations may be killed -- or don't even have to be 9 killed . It could just be beat up or something like that. 10 They might want to go and beat up on one of their people or 11 whatever . 12 ever retaliated because of Nuni . 13 14 From my understanding , I don't think anything was Q. Were you ever scared of retaliation for your identification of Sierra ? 15 A. Well , it crossed my mind , but -- I don't see it 16 as a threat because I don't even know the individual . 17 nobody he knows might have known me either . 18 Q. And Had you heard before though of retaliation for 19 people making identification s, especially in court , of gang 20 members ? 21 A. 22 a gang member. 23 member . 24 25 Q. Well , I don't think it'd necessarily have to be It could go either way, gang or no gang Just generally that was something you had heard of happening ? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 80 1 A. Yes, I heard of it before . 2 Q. Are there any Imperial Gangsters here at FCI 4 A. I think there is one maybe. 5 Q. Have you ever been concerned here for your 3 6 McKean ? Maybe one. safety regarding the identification you made in this case ? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Are you fearful of gangs here for any reason as 9 a result of you testifying today? 10 A. I don't think anyone knows. 11 Q. If they did know, would you be fearful ? 12 A. Yeah , I would . 13 Q. And why would that be? 14 A. Because , because who I used to be. 15 Q. You mean a Latin King? 16 A. A Latin King. It could be like they might 17 think that I might have said something against them, or it's 18 part of a rule not to give a statement or whatever , what I'm 19 doing today . 20 Q. 21 22 Sure . And when you say you are fearful, would you be fearful of being beat up? A. Well , it could happen. But like I said , I 23 don't surround myself around that anymore . 24 the reasons why I didn't wanna take place in this -- this 25 gathering today . And that 's one of SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 81 1 Q. Well , and I'll just tell you too -- and Liz, I 2 hope you are okay with me representing this -- that he said 3 that no one here at the prison , of course except the prison 4 staff , knows he is here . 5 anyone . 6 here . 7 the Plaintiff probably has any intention of it, informing 8 anyone that you gave deposition today. 9 Mazur ? 10 11 12 13 I don't actually know anyone else who is incarcerated So I would have no intention . MS. MAZUR : And I don't think that Is that correct , Miss Yes, that 's correct . BY MS. WHITE : Q. So I don't know if that helps you at all, but I do want to make sure I settled that for you. 14 A. All right . 15 Q. Okay . 16 I have no intention of telling Have you ever told anyone that your identification of Thomas Sierra as the shooter was false? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you know if Macho ever told anyone that his 19 identification of Sierra was false ? 20 A. I don't know if he ever told anyone . 21 Q. Have you ever talked with anyone else , besides 22 I guess me, about this case, about your testimony here today ? 23 A. If I ever told anyone? 24 Q. Uh-huh. 25 A. No, other than my counselor and case manager . SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 82 1 Q. Okay . And have you ever talked with anyone in 2 general about the identification you made in this case since 3 your trial testimony ? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you and Macho ever talk about the trial 6 testimony and what happened at trial ? 7 A. Well , he asked what had happened or what was 8 the outcome . I had told him that they had found him guilty 9 and that I had testified against him. 10 Q. Do you know if Macho ever testified ? 11 A. I don't know if he ever testified . 12 Q. Did you look at anything in preparation for the 13 deposition today ? Any document ? 14 A. Can you repeat the question ? 15 Q. Did you look at any documents in preparation 16 for your testimony today ? 17 A. I don't have any documents . 18 Q. Okay . Okay , we are going to go through a list 19 of people and I'm just going to ask you if you know these 20 people or know of these people , heard of these people . 21 you often tend just to know nicknames . I know 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. So when I have the nicknames , I'll give you 24 25 those . Okay ? A. Okay . SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 83 1 Q. Do you know or do you know of Juan Johnson ? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Okay . 4 case . 5 conviction ? Juan Johnson is the plaintiff in this Do you know any of the details of his criminal murder 6 A. Who is Juan Johnson ? 7 Q. He's the plaintiff in this case. I'm just 8 trying to get at if you know anything about him or his 9 previous criminal case or his current civil case . 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Hector 13 A. No. 14 Q. Sammy Perez , who goes by Spanky? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Ramon Crespo? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Nelson Crespo ? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Juan Delgado ? 21 A. Juan Delgado ? 22 Q. Do you know where you might know Juan Delgado A. The name kind of like rings a bell . 12 23 Franco ? from ? 24 25 Kind of sounds familiar . don't -- SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES I don't, I 84 1 2 Q. Do you know a Juan Delgado who is a member of the Spanish Cobras street gang ? 3 A. I don't. 4 Q. Okay . 5 A. No. 6 Q. Edwin Gomez ? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Henry Johnson ? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Chris McCoy ? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Armando Medez ? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Player E? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Juan Michel ? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Jose Negron ? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Reginald Robinson ? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Reginald Williams ? 23 A. No. 24 Q. We are just about done , I promise . 25 Ricardo Fernandez ? Do you know an Imperial Gang ster named David Colon who goes by Malo or SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 85 1 Negro G? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Ruben Gonzelez ? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Raymond Graciano who goes by Ray? 6 A. No. 7 Q. David Rivera? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Joel Valentin ? 10 A. No. 11 Q. He goes by Pappo. 12 A. No. 13 Q. Raoul Cook ? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Angel Guy-ah (phonetic spelling ), who goes by 17 A. No. 18 Q. Charles Ellison , who goes by Choco ? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Luis Serrano , who went by Hit Man or Danny ? 21 A. What was that last name ? 22 Q. Serrano ? 23 A. What was the first name ? 24 Q. Luis . 25 A. Serrano ? 16 Luis ? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 86 1 Q. He was a -- well, did you ever know a Luis 2 Serrano who was a member of the Beach & Spaulding faction of 3 the Latin King s? 4 A. The name , ahhh , the name rings a bell . 5 Q. Do you know if he had rank in the Beach & 6 Spaulding Latin Kings ? 7 A. 8 I'm trying to picture the person . like I said , rings a bell . 9 10 No. Q. me. 11 But I don't know if he -- Do you know if he was ever connected -- excuse If he was ever convicted of a homicide in Chicago ? A. I don't -- I don't even know the person . I 12 know the name sounds familiar , but I'm trying to put a face to 13 it. But -- I can't. 14 Q. Ismael Rivera ? 15 A. Can you state another name before Ismael? 16 Q. No, we just talked about Luis Serrano . 17 A. Oh, okay . 18 Q. And the next one I asked was Ismael Rivera who 19 Went by Bandit ? went by Bandit . 20 A. No. 21 Q. How about Wilfred Rosario who went by Bear ? 22 A. The nick names kind of sound familiar , but -- 23 Q. Do you know who the leader of the Armitage and 24 25 Kedzie Latin Kings was in 1995 ? A. No. It's like I don't -- I'm not from the SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 87 1 neighborhood , so I really don't -- don't know who is calling 2 the shots or whatever . 3 Q. What do they call the person who is the leader ? 4 I know different gangs have different names for them . 5 would they call the person who was the leader of the Latin 6 Kings in your neighborhood ? What 7 A. Inca . 8 Q. Do you know someone named Martinez Arcos, went 10 A. The nickname sounds familiar , Chino . 11 Q. Do you know if Chino lived or at least hung 9 12 by Chino? around near Lowell Elementary in Chicago ? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. Do you know if Chino hung out near the Humboldt 15 Parking Center in Chicago ? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. Do you know Rudy Martinez ? 18 name . Do you remember anybody named Rudy Martinez ? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Efran Sanchez ? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Julio Sanchez ? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Okay . 25 Might be a common I'm going to take a minute to go over my notes and make sure I don't have any other questions . SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES I think 88 1 I might be almost done, in which case I think Miss Mazur may 2 have some questions for you. 3 questions ? 4 5 6 7 MS. MAZUR : Liz, do you know if you have Yeah , I have some , but not too many . don't think it should be very long . MS. WHITE : Okay , just give me a couple minutes to look over my notes. 8 (Documents reviewed by counsel .) 9 MS. WHITE : 10 I a few here for you. Okay , I think I'm done . She might have Go ahead , Liz. 11 MS. MAZUR : I'm sorry ? 12 MS. WHITE : Yes, please do. Is it okay if I go ahead ? 13 14 15 16 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MS. MAZUR : Q. There is a couple I wanted to follow up on, 17 questions you just heard earlier . 18 of clarification . 19 about two separate incidents after the day of the shooting 20 where you went to the police department to potentially do some 21 kind of identification ? I wanted maybe just a point Isn't it right that today we have talked 22 A. Yeah . 23 Q. Okay . And that would have been -- I know you 24 testified you said you went the night of the shooting and you 25 couldn 't make an identification then ; is that right? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 89 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And then even though I understand right now 3 sitting here today you don't really have a memory of it, but 4 in prior testimony you've given , it sounds like you went back 5 to the police department around May 25th, which was like two 6 days later . Is that correct ? 7 A. Yeah , that could be. 8 Q. Okay . 9 And then just to help me make sure I understand and heard everything correctly , that there was 10 another time in that period that you would have gone back to 11 make identification ; is that correct ? 12 A. I didn 't understand your question . 13 Q. Then after you went on May 25th, did you go 14 back again to the police station on the 30th to see if you 15 could make an identification ? 16 A. The number of times I might have went to the 17 police station might have been two times . 18 that 's -- might have been the second time. 19 MS. WHITE : I don't know if Hey, Liz, I'm sorry to interrupt . We're 20 having a really hard time hearing you and I think it's just 21 our facility , we are in an echoing room . 22 as loud as you can? 23 loud as you can? 24 25 MS. MAZUR : Could you just talk Maybe shut your office door and talk as My door is shut, but I'll speak as loud as I can into the speaker phone . SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 90 1 2 MS. WHITE : Thank you. BY MS. MAZUR : 3 Q. Do you recall if you had any conversation s with 4 Macho about what happened between the day of the shooting and 5 the time that you went back to the police station to make an 6 identification ? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Okay , you don't remember either way? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Okay . And are you aware that -- well , strike 11 that . 12 identification of the shooter , that you were pretty sure about 13 it. 14 that . 15 do you recall being a hundred percent certain , that, yes, 16 that 's the guy I saw in the car that night? 17 18 19 Sorry . You testified that you were , when you made the And I think counsel tried to get, you know , follow up on I know it's kind of a difficult question to answer , but MS. WHITE : I'm going to object to the form . can go ahead and answer her question . THE WITNESS : Well , if I picked the person at that 20 point , I feel it was a hundred percent sure . 21 BY MS. MAZUR : 22 23 You Q. Okay . And do you remember when you made the identification it was when you were looking at photographs ? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay , it was. And do you remember whether the SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 91 1 photographs were being shown to you like one at a time ? 2 A. I know he gave me like many at a time . 3 Q. Okay . And do you remember when you made that 4 identification like if there were several photos out in front 5 of you at that instance ? 6 A. There were many photos . 7 Q. Okay . And do you remember , you know, whether 8 the person showing you the photographs said anything like we 9 think it might be this guy and showed you a picture , or 10 anything like that ? 11 MS. WHITE : I'm going to object to form . 12 already stated he remembers that. 13 the question . 14 THE WITNESS : 15 picture . 16 BY MS. MAZUR : 17 Q. Okay . He's You can go ahead and answer I don't think that he pointed at a And when they were showing you the 18 photographs , was anyone -- I'm sorry , strike that . 19 were looking at the pictures , was the officer saying anything 20 to you about the investigation ? 21 A. No. 22 Q. No? Okay . When you And at the time of the shooting 23 which was back in 1995, did you have any or were there any 24 charges pending against you for anything ? 25 A. Yes. SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 92 1 Q. What were the charges ? 2 A. One was a drug charge and a gun charge . 3 Q. And were those Federal charges ? 4 A. It was state charges . 5 Q. Okay . 6 When did you -- did you go to trial on those charges ? 7 A. I went to trial on one charge , ma'am. 8 Q. Were those two charges , were they charged at 9 the same time or were they related to separate incidents ? 10 A. They were separate incidents . 11 Q. Okay . 12 But at the time of the shooting in this case , they were both still pending ? 13 A. I don't know if it was before or after they 14 were pending , but around that time period I had those two 15 cases . 16 17 Q. And are these the same charges you testified about earlier in the beginning of the deposition ? 18 A. Can you repeat the question ? 19 Q. The gun and the drug charge you just told me 20 about , are those the same ones you testified about earlier in 21 the deposition ? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay , so I won't need to ask you a hundred 24 questions about all that . 25 you are currently serving now related to those charges ? And are those -- is the sentence SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 93 1 A. No. 2 Q. No? 3 A. What I would say, you know, other than the 4 violation of probation , I guess they used that. 5 Q. Okay . I'm not sure. I think counsel also asked you earlier 6 if you ever wore glasses , and I believe you testified that you 7 have not; is that correct ? 8 A. Correct . 9 Q. Do you know whether you've ever needed glasses ? 10 A. Not that I know of. 11 I don't -- I don't -- I ain't never needed glasses . 12 Q. Okay . And you testified earlier that on the 13 day of the shooting you had smoked some marijuana earlier , 14 before hand . 15 ask you about that , whether you had, you know , done any drugs 16 that day? And I'm wondering did any of the officers ever 17 A. I believe so. 18 Q. Okay . And do you remember what your response A. Yeah . We were smoking in the car when it Q. So you did tell them that . 19 was? 20 21 22 23 happened . They would have known that ? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. I just have one other question about, you know , SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 94 1 the scene of the shooting . 2 passenger seat at the time . And I understand you were in the Is that correct ? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And Macho was driving ? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And so the other car, you said , pulled up on 7 your left -hand side ? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. So is it true that the car that the shooter was 10 in was closer to Macho than it was to you? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay . And then I think I'm done , let me just 13 take one minute to look at my notes real quick, okay ? 14 (Documents reviewed by counsel .) 15 Q. I guess I have one other quick question , which 16 is, were you ever -- I'm trying to think of a good way to 17 phrase this . 18 testimony in the Thomas Sierra case ? Were you promised anything in exchange for your 19 A. No. 20 Q. No? And so did your testimony in that case in 21 any way impact on the criminal charges that were pending 22 against you at the time ? 23 A. Not that I know of. 24 Q. Okay . 25 So the police , like, the state 's attorney , or the police didn 't, you know , see your criminal SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 95 1 case , seek your cooperation in the Thomas Sierra case ? 2 A. Well , I went to trial on my drug case . 3 Q. Okay . 4 A. I got found guilty . 5 Q. Okay . 6 A. And the other charge , which is the gun charge I 7 had pending , I had to sit it out, either go to trial or plead 8 out. 9 said I'm going to plead out. 10 11 Q. A. And then once you pled on that , was that I'm not sure if it was time served , but I know they ran them together and gave me the probation . 14 15 Okay . charge -- like , did you just plead to time served ? 12 13 And at that point I did almost a month in jail until I Q. else . 16 Okay . Okay . I don't think I have anything Do you, Christina ? MS. WHITE : I'm just going to ask one more question . 17 18 19 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. WHITE : 20 Q. It's kind of one I forgot to ask at the end of 21 mine and one that goes along with something she asked you 22 about . 23 the pictures and you made the identification . 24 talking to her about that ? 25 Miss Mazur talked to you about the officer showing you A. Yes. SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES Do you recall 96 1 Q. Okay . Well , let me start with this . My 2 question at the end of my testimony that I wanted to ask you 3 was after we have sat here today for a couple of hours now and 4 discussed all this , has anything else kind of shaken loose in 5 your memory that you didn 't testify to earlier today that 6 maybe now you remember now that you have talked about it? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Okay . 9 I think you testified , you know , with me that you really didn 't have too much memory about the 10 photographs . 11 he gave you a bunch of photographs at one time. Then with Miss Mazur you testified you remember Correct ? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And that they were laid out in front of you. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Is there anything else you can remember about 14 17 18 19 20 21 22 Correct ? viewing the photographs besides that ? A. I just remember him going and grabbing bundles of pictures and -- Q. Was that at the same time that you were looking at the albums? A. I'm not sure if it was at that point or at a 23 different point . 24 bundles and bundles of pictures . 25 Q. But I remember him just taking bundles and So he could have handed you the bundles while SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 97 1 you were looking at the albums , or it could have been on a 2 separate occasion . Correct ? 3 A. Yes, correct . 4 Q. And she also talked to you about how many times 5 you had went to the police station . Correct ? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you testified today that you don't really 8 remember how many times you went to the poli ce station . 9 Correct ? 10 A. Correct . 11 Q. But every time you did talk to the police you 12 were telling them the truth; is that correct ? 13 A. That 's correct . 14 Q. And every time you did give testimony , you gave 15 truthful testimony . Correct ? 16 A. Yes, correct . 17 Q. And we have already gone through this , but to 18 the extent that you gave the testimony closer to the time of 19 the incident , your memory was more likely stronger when you 20 gave that testimony then . Correct ? 21 A. Correct . 22 Q. And so in the places where you maybe didn 't 23 remember or your testimony today conflicts with testimony you 24 gave in the past , it's more likely your testimony in the past 25 is more accurate . Correct ? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 98 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. That 's all the questions I have. 3 you have any other follow -up from what we just discussed ? 4 MS. MAZUR : Nope . 5 MS. WHITE : Okay . 6 done . I think we are done . MS. MAZUR : Yes. 8 MS. WHITE : Okay . about . Are you Ms. Mazur ? 7 9 Ms. Mazur , do One thing left we have to talk I promise this is the easiest one all day. 10 THE WITNESS : 11 MS. WHITE : Okay . You see she's been over there typing 12 everything while we've been talking ? 13 going to go back and put that all into a transcript . 14 does that , you have the opportunity , if you'd like , to receive 15 a copy of the transcript . 16 (indicating ). 17 it's accurate . 18 However , if she has a miss pelling or maybe misunderstood the 19 way you pronounced something , you can suggest a change to it. 20 But again , you cannot change the substance of what you 21 testified to here today . 22 When she's done she's When she It will kind of look like this You can look it over and read it and make sure You can't change any of your answers . You can opt to do that, or you can waive that right 23 and just trust she's taking everything down accurately , in 24 which case you will be done here. 25 yours . The choice is totally Which would you like to do? SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 99 1 2 THE WITNESS : Umm, what 's my use for the transcripts ? 3 MS. WHITE : I couldn 't tell you what you would use 4 the transcript for. 5 be doing is look ing it over and make sure she was accurate in 6 typing it down . 7 it's accurate or maybe these are changes I have . 8 9 10 All you, for our purpose , all you would And then , you know , mail it back and say yes, I can't really advise you which way to do it. Some people like to do it, and some people are just happy to be done with it. It's really your call . 11 THE WITNESS : 12 MS. WHITE : I guess she can mail it. Okay , so that means you are going to 13 reserve signature , meaning reserving the right to get the 14 transcript , read it and sign it. Okay . 15 Liz, then I think we are all done . 16 MS. MAZUR : 17 THE WITNESS : 18 MS. WHITE : Okay . I have some questions . Well , unfortunately today we can't 19 answer questions . 20 would receive the transcript ? 21 the case? So -- is it just questions about how you Or is it more questions about 22 THE WITNESS : 23 MS. WHITE : 24 Liz, can we go off the record ? 25 MS. MAZUR : It's about the case . Okay . Well , let's go off the record . Sure . SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 100 1 2 MS. WHITE : Okay , let's go ahead and go off the record . 3 (Off-the-record discussion .) 4 (Deposition concluded at 11:38 a.m.) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES 2 INDEX OF WITNESS, ALBERTO RODRIGUEZ Direct Cross Redirect 3 (White) 88 (Mazur) 95 (White) Recross INDEX OF EXHIBITS Description Marked 1. Copy of trial testimony 55 2. Copy of Motion to Suppress 55 SCHREIBER REPORTING SERVICES