1 NYS DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS and COMMUNITY SUPERVISION - 2 BOARD OF PAROLE 3 4 ******************************************************** 5 Parole Board Hearing 6 In the Matter 7 -of- 8 JUDITH CLARK 9 10 DIN # 83G0313 NYSID # 11 ********************************************************* TYPE OF INTERVIEW: INITIAL 12 LOCATION: Bedford Correctional Facility 13 Video-conferenced to 14 314 West 40th Street 15 New York, New York 16 17 DATE: DECISION DATE: April 5, 2017 & April 6, 2017 April 20, 2017 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BEFORE: COMMISSIONER STANFORD COMMISSIONER LUDLOW COMMISSIONER THOMPSON ALSO PRESENT: AT FACILITY: Yesenia Cheverez, SORC; Edna Crespo, APA Joseph Greenfield, SORC; Andrea Williams, ORC VERBATIM REPORTER: Susan Fischler JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 2 1 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 2 Q. Hello. 3 A. Good evening, I guess. 4 Q. Yes, ma'am. 5 record? 6 A. My name is Judith Clark. 7 Q. Miss Clark, I am Commissioner Stanford and I am 8 joined this afternoon by Commissioners Thompson and 9 Ludlow for your interview. Could you please state your name for the COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 10 Good afternoon, ma'am. 11 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 12 Good afternoon. 13 14 A. Good afternoon. 15 Q. Miss Clark, our records indicate that, due to 16 commutation, the time that you have served, and are now 17 eligible for parole consideration, totals 35 years, 18 5 months and 14 days, making your eligibility date now 19 March 15th of 2017, which has now passed. We are seeing you to interview you related to 20 21 two counts of Murder in the 2nd Degree and four counts 22 of Robbery in the 1st Degree; is that your 23 understanding? 24 A. Three counts of Murder in the 2nd Degree. 25 Q. And four counts of Robbery in the 1st Degree? JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 3 1 A. One count of Robbery in the 1st Degree, I believe. 2 Am I correct? 3 on Murder in the 2nd and one count of Robbery in the 1st 4 Degree. 5 Q. I'm looking at your reception papers. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And your sentence and commitment. 8 because I want to make sure the record is correct. 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. Okay. 11 1983, where the Honorable David S. Ritter was presiding 12 and he passed sentence, he passed it on counts 1, 2 and 13 3 of the indictment; those were all Murder in the 2nd 14 Degree. 15 three. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. And then counts 4, 5, 6 and 7, which would be four 18 counts of Robbery in the 1st Degree. 19 A. Okay, correct. 20 Q. Sound right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. 23 counts? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Then, I stand corrected; it's three, and not two Oh, I see. And it does says two counts One moment, In your sentencing minutes from October 6, So, I misspoke by saying two; it's actually There was no appellate action that changed the That is correct. JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 4 1 counts of Murder in the 2nd Degree; and four counts of 2 Robbery in the 1st Degree. 3 that I have reviewed are accurate, the counts of Murder 4 in the 2nd Degree, basically felony murder counts? 5 A. Correct, yes. 6 Q. Alright. 7 time that has passed and so much information, I want to 8 try to break up my questions with periods of time so 9 that we can get to know you before the crime, during the 10 time of the crime, and certainly in all these years that 11 have passed since the crime. 12 talking about your early life. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. Again, just so that we can, in this limited venue, 15 get to know you as well as we can, your early years, as 16 I said, that led to these crimes, and then since, but 17 try to do it in some kind of structure because it's so 18 much information. Those counts, if the records I want to try to, because there's so much So, I want to start by Why don't you begin by telling us a little about 19 20 yourself? Were you an only child, where were you born? 21 That kind of thing. 22 A. 23 years older than me, so I was the youngest child. 24 parents, 25 Brooklyn. I'm grew up in a family. I have a brother who is two , we primarily lived in My very earliest years were spent -- my My JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 5 1 father was a foreign correspondent and we lived in the 2 Soviet Union, but I was too young to remember that. 3 were back by the time I was three-and-a-half years old. 4 I grew up in Bensonhurst and then Flatbush, Brooklyn. 5 My parents had been Communists through most of their 6 young lives, and by the time I was a school-age child 7 they had renounced there activism as a Communist. 8 it was a sort of tense period; my father was blacklisted 9 for a number of years. We But My mother was the person who 10 said, I want to take this marginalized family into the 11 mainstream of America. 12 that. 13 I had a happy childhood. 14 with my parents early years. 15 on, I somehow still somehow believed in, even as a very 16 young child. 17 school, which was 1964, it was a period there were a 18 number of citywide boycotts demanding quality education, 19 equal education, and I joined those boycotts. 20 spent most of my young years active in the Northern 21 Civil Rights Movement. 22 Q. And she worked very hard to do I went to public schools. I feel like, overall, But I was also -- I identified What they were giving up And so, by the time I was in junior high And I Northern Civil Rights Movement. 23 Just so that you know, we've got a court 24 reporter on this end and she's making a transcript of my 25 questions, your answers, and so she had a question about JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 6 1 that last part. 2 A. 3 years, I participated in a peaceful, progressive, aware 4 way. 5 but I was deeply involved and my identity was tied to 6 that, and sometimes that created conflict with my 7 parents, but it's what I pursued. Northern. So....and I think those early I was certainly not -- I wasn't a troublemaker, I went to college at University of Chicago in 8 9 Sure. 1969. I'm wrong, I started in 1967, and in '68 is when 10 the students' left really kind of erupted, and I jumped 11 in headfirst into it and I got expelled from college for 12 demonstrations in my second year. 13 I was starting to be much more vehement. 14 left school my parents desperately tried to get me to go 15 back to a different school, and instead I joined what 16 was then called Weatherman SDS, so, as part of a large 17 organization called Students for Democratic Society but 18 I was aligned with people who were beginning to say, We 19 need a revolution in this country. 20 collective that became my total life, my total identity. 21 Q. 22 old were you by the time you were part of the 23 collective? 24 A. Nineteen. 25 Q. And you said it was a -- it wasn't strictly just SDS Okay. And, I think by then And, when I And I joined the Let me stop you there for a moment. About how JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 7 1 - Students for Democratic Society - it wasn't strictly 2 the Weathermen, it was a combination? 3 A. 4 before Weatherman went underground. 5 pushing for SDS to become more militant, and I 6 identified with that and was organized by people older 7 than myself, but also believed in it. 8 people arguing with me to slow down a little. 9 was -- I know I had a chip on my shoulder I would say, Well, at that time, Weatherman was SDS. This is But they were I had plenty of But I 10 even back then. So, we were in the collective and it 11 was in Chicago. I was involved in a number of 12 demonstrations which definitely got violent. 13 certainly argued for militancy I would say, back then. 14 And we got more and more -- I got more and more wrapped 15 up into this being sort of my people, and less and less 16 connected to old friends or my family. 17 family, still was in touch with them, but I was less and 18 less honest with them about what I was doing with my 19 life. 20 Q. 21 underground or become known by a different name? 22 A. I believe it was at the end of 1969. 23 Q. Were you still affiliated under this new moniker? 24 A. Yes, yes, I joined other people and was actually -- I 25 had had charges from the demonstrations in Chicago and I We I still saw my Now, at that point in time, did the Weathermen go JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 8 1 skipped bail on those charges and went underground and 2 was arrested in New York in December 1970. 3 Q. 4 Chicago, Illinois, in '69, September and then October -- 5 A. -- yes. 6 Q. ....of the same year, there were the following 7 charges: 8 resisting arrest, aggravated battery, and there was 9 probation of three years? Now, I'm looking at your records and it looks like in Yes. Aggravated battery, aiding escape, mob action, 10 A. Actually, I spent nine months in Cook County 11 Jail, and three years probation. 12 Q. 13 the arrest in New York in December of 1970 or.... 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay, alright. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. ...and brought back to Illinois? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And then you did the nine months and got the three 20 years probation? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. Was your probation transferred, or did you serve the 23 period of probation in Illinois? 24 A. 25 successfully completed probation. Now, was it related to those charges that there was So, you were arrested in New York? I served the period of probation in New York and I JUDITH CLARK Okay. DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 9 1 Q. So how would you describe the change in your 2 mindset between a young person involved in civil 3 disobedience, peaceful protest, to the philosophies that 4 it sounds like you embraced later on that allow for the 5 possibility of violence by sort of any means necessary? 6 How did you transition? 7 A. 8 more invested in a very small group that all kind of -- 9 we reinforced each other in seeing that nothing was good I think, in part, I transitioned because I became 10 enough but revolution. I think for me personally, I 11 felt that my parents had kind of failed, and so, if they 12 failed, I had to do something different than them. 13 while they were committed, they were also very -- they 14 were responsible in their political activities and they 15 were strongly, you know, never believed in violence. 16 think I was attracted to violence as something that 17 answered something to me at the time about how to be 18 willing to commit everything. 19 trying to overcome being white and with privileges, and 20 I wanted to show I was willing to do what other people 21 were willing to do. 22 revolutions going on around the world and, I sort of 23 felt like I had to show I could do whatever was 24 necessary. 25 was also -- I was not willing to see that people who And I I think it was a way of I think that I romanticized the And it became almost like -- and I think I JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 10 1 disagreed with me might have a legitimate perspective, 2 that, I more and more felt like this is the only way. 3 And I wouldn't listen outside of the same people who 4 believed in what I believed in. 5 believed, and what they said, I believed. 6 Q. 7 that period of time between let's say the charges and 8 probation, and the crime itself. 9 that period of time. Okay. So, what I said, they Now, I want to talk about, a little more about I want to focus now on 10 But before I move on, I want to ask my 11 colleagues if they have any questions about your early 12 life based on the answers you have already given, or 13 some other questions I did not ask? COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 14 I would like to 15 open up. 16 reviewing an affidavit I believe you completed in 17 support of a 440 motion. 18 A. Yes. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 19 22 This relates back to December of 2002. 20 21 Miss Clark, I have had the benefit of A. Correct. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: I think there's 23 a relevant narrative in here that might sharpen the 24 discussion which you just had with the Chair. 25 would like to read portions of it and see if it's an I JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 11 accurate description of that time in your life. 1 I am reading from paragraph 7 of that 2 3 motion, and I quote, "After my father left the 4 Communist Party, he was blacklisted and unemployed 5 for a number of years. 6 feel that something very important had been lost in 7 my parents' change of heart and that I needed to 8 retrieve it. 9 from their early years with their political As I grew older, I came to I associated the warmth I remembered 10 involvement and their political disengagement with 11 my own sense of loss. 12 up for my parents' loss through my own political 13 involvement." I took on the task of making You went on to state in paragraph 9, 14 15 "Psychologically, I could not tolerate ambivalence 16 and the anxiety which it produced. 17 entertained any doubts, I would become like my 18 parents and 'sell out.'" 19 20 A. I felt that if I Absolutely. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: "This led me to 21 seek the security of dogmatic faith, which allowed 22 no room for critical thinking. 23 with others, I walled myself off and would not 24 reflect on the impact of my actions on others. 25 demanded a blind adherence to rigid ideas and In my interaction I JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 12 1 loyalties among individuals in my group. 2 the safety of dogma. 3 extreme as popular support for and participation in 4 the radical movements lessened through the decade of 5 the 1970's. 6 sensibilities and my own humanity." 7 A. My fanaticism became more Ultimately it cut me off from any moral Right. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 8 9 I sought You went on to state, "But my insistence on the need for violence 10 represented a real break from their values," meaning 11 your parents' values, I believe. 12 the attraction for me. 13 up their abandon mission of transforming society, I 14 also felt I had to atone for their failure to 15 sustain their commitment. 16 was more revolutionary precisely because it was 17 anti-intellectual. 18 in part, a way to reject my grassroots and identity 19 as a middle-class Jewish intellectual, to attempt to 20 reinvent myself as more grassroots and thus, to be 21 seen as more reliable as a participant to those in 22 the struggle. 23 escalating pattern of violence over the years was my 24 means of validating my revolutionary credentials and 25 sense of self. "This was part of While I was driven to take I believed that violence My attraction to violence was, My willingness to engage in an On the way to demonstrations or JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 13 1 actions, I would put myself in a semi-trance state 2 in order to appear fearless and aggressive. 3 dependent on being part of 'the group,' -- be it the 4 Weatherman in the early '70s or the May 19th 5 Communist Organization in 1981. 6 being alone and of living as an individual in the 7 world. 8 cocoon of my group. 9 and gave orders; I was controlled and in turn, I was I was afraid of I craved the security I felt within the As a leader, I took my orders 10 controlled and manipulated others. There was no 11 such thing as partial involvement or critical 12 support; it was all or nothing. 13 sustain my loyalty and protect my image and position 14 in the group. 15 soldier. 16 in this crime, I was not a young idealistic 17 innocent, by any means. 18 While I did not go out that day intending to harm 19 anyone, I had every reason to recognize the 20 potential dangers involved. 21 of the consequences of my actions. 22 of thinking or feeling on any real terms. 23 though my role in the crime did not involve shooting 24 anyone, I bear responsibility for the loss of life, 25 the injuries and the terror of that day." I was determined to I was determined to be a good By October 20, 1981, when I participated I was truly out of control. But I refused to think I was incapable Thus, JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 14 Do those excerpts, Miss Clark, 1 correctly and substantially frame your mindset -- 2 3 NYSID# A. -- absolutely. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 4 ....at the time in question that you discussed with Chair Stanford? 5 6 A. Absolutely, and, that it grew -- over those years it 7 grew and worsened, yes, absolutely. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 8 I have nothing further right now, but we will pick up according to 9 10 the plan we have here to try and manage all this 11 information. 12 attention. Absolutely. Thank you, Miss Clark, for your 13 A. Thank you. 14 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 15 Q. 16 intimate group, the group that you cocooned yourself 17 within, that you, in the words of your affidavit, 18 received direction from and gave direction to, that you 19 shared the same mindset in thinking and encouraged one 20 another? 21 group? 22 A. 23 in New York? 24 Q. Let's focus for now on the early time. 25 A. In the early time? Miss Clark, what was the approximate size of your What was the approximate size of that active Oh, in the early time? Or later on when I was back One of the many sad things to say JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 15 1 is that when Weathermen took over SDS there were 2 thousands of students in SDS. 3 Weatherman demanded this kind of level of revolutionary 4 discipline, we were down to maybe 200 people, and maybe 5 a hundred people at the end. 6 smaller in the end. 7 Chicago, at the time probably had, I don't remember 8 exactly, but eight, 10, 12 people. 9 Q. And by the time I mean, it got smaller and And in my collective, which was in It was tiny. So, 8 to 12 that you were interacting with on a 10 fairly regular basis in Chicago? 11 A. 12 that were leadership in the city of Chicago. 13 Q. An additional 20? 14 A. Probably. 15 I woke up with every day and went to sleep with every 16 day. 17 Q. So, did you reside together? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Socialize together? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Plan together? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. Can you describe it's makeup? 24 to 12 people like, gender-wise, racially, academically? 25 A. Yes. And probably another 20 I saw regionally, or But I would say the smaller group was who What were those eight We were all white, most of us had been students, JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 16 1 college students. I was probably on the younger end of 2 them. 3 membership was majority female. 4 Q. 5 Chicago, coming back to New York. 6 City in approximately what year? 7 A. 8 my parents in Brooklyn, and I think the time in jail, it 9 made me think about the fact that I had been so enclosed While the leadership was majority male, the Now, I want to go on to that period of time after You came back to the I got out of jail in July 1971 and went to live with 10 in this small group. And I had said to myself, I need 11 to find new ground for myself. 12 came out, I didn't rush back into whatever was there at 13 that time, but I got a job and I tried to figure out 14 what I was going to do with myself. 15 very soon afterwards, I felt both internal pressure -- 16 basically, a number of events happened: 17 Attica uprising, and another thing was a number of 18 people from the Black Panther Party who were now 19 associated with the Black Liberation Army, were 20 arrested, various people got killed. 21 say, Oh, I can't go off on my own and rebuild a life, I 22 have to be responsible. 23 and thinking came back to me. 24 the next couple years I did -- I did legitimate 25 political work, I did work work, and I also did And so, when I first And -- but soon, One was the And I began to And that same sort of mentality And so I would say for JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 17 1 legitimate reasonable work, but at the same time I was 2 more and more feeling like, uh, I had to get more 3 actively involved in a more committed way. 4 be people who would come and see me and say, Wait a 5 second, you were involved with the Weathermen, I need 6 your help, we need money because so and so just got 7 arrested. 8 like I had to re-associate myself with people who were 9 associated with the Weather underground, and people who There would And I spent more and more of my time feeling 10 were associated with what had been the Black Panthers in 11 New York. 12 around then, I can't remember the exact date. 13 -- so I was kind of -- I was on two different plains in 14 a way. 15 news letter called The Midnight Special that came out of 16 a legal organization that was doing work. 17 the one hand, I was doing that, but on the other hand I 18 was saying, This isn't enough, people are getting -- 19 people are going to prison, I have to do more. 20 people were also saying that to me, and I was saying 21 that to people. 22 self-enclosed - now it was called May 19th, but we lived 23 together, we worked together, we felt responsible to 24 give solidarity to various organizations, black 25 organizations, Puerto Rican organizations. And, by 1976 -- we formed May 19th sometime But I was I work for the Women's Bail Fund, I worked on a And, so, on And So, by '76 I was back in a much more JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 1 18 Commissioner Ludlow has a question. 2 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 3 Miss Clark, your 4 focus on revolution was not limited to the domestic 5 situation in the United States? 6 A. No. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 7 My understanding 8 is, from your own words, you focused on revolution 9 globally - what was occurring in other parts of the world. 10 You made a statement, and I would like 11 12 to read what I believe to be that statement. 13 read about jailed revolutionary in other countries 14 who had resisted collaborating, and tried to pattern 15 myself on their example." Is that correct? 16 A. 17 it is true. 18 completely didn't look at the fact that the conditions 19 in those countries were completely different. 20 importing a view of the revolution happening in 21 third-world countries, and we literally would say 22 there's war going on in America, even though there was 23 no evidence of it. 24 25 Yes. "I I mean, I have to say, when I hear those words, One of the things I meant to do is that, I COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: So I was You were, apparently, drawing enthusiasm about revolution on a JUDITH CLARK NYSID# 19 global scale. 1 2 DIN#83G0313 A. Absolutely. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 3 And you went on 4 to say, "My need to project an image of myself as 5 more than as I was, now as a 'captive freedom 6 fighter' was far greater than any thoughts from my 7 legal rights or self-preservation." 8 A. Certainly once I was arrested, that was my state of 9 mind, yes. I think, in that period leading up to it, it 10 was my state of mind to push me to say whatever it is 11 that I'm asked to do, I have to prove I'm worthy by 12 doing what I am asked to do, correct. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 13 Thank you again. 14 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 15 Q. 16 collective, as you describe the group, in Chicago. 17 A. 18 And again, a lot of the activity was completely legal, 19 legitimate activity but -- and we were divided into 20 different areas of focus. 21 supporting political prisoners. 22 working on people's cases, trying to organize support, 23 writing leaflets. 24 supporting the Puerto Rican Independence Movement. 25 Other people spent their time working on supporting the Now, please describe the composition of the May 19th I would say we were even smaller, maybe 30, 40 women. So, my area of focus was I spent a lot of time Other people spent their time JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 20 1 struggle that was going on in southern Africa. But we 2 were living, you know, maybe there was five or six 3 households we were all living in and we would -- 4 whatever -- and, you know, people worked, different 5 people worked at different times and would support 6 everyone else. 7 communal. 8 our personal lives were very intertwined with our 9 political affinity, and part of what that meant is if So it was sort of everyone's money was We helped raise each other's children. So, 10 you decided you didn't like what was going on or you 11 disagreed with it, you were not just leaving a political 12 organization; you were leaving your friendship grouping, 13 your household. 14 it, I would say. 15 Q. 16 have described it, up until the time of the crime in 17 October of 1981? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. In the period closest to October of 1981, who were 20 your roommates or housemates? 21 A. 22 woman named 23 today. 24 sure I can even remember her name. 25 Q. It had a lot of cult-like qualities to Now, did you stay in that communal collective, as you Right. I lived with three women. One of them is a , who actually remains my friend I lived another woman named Excuse me, you said ? , and I am not A woman named . JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 21 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. How would you spell that? 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 both friends with and they were in the organization. 7 I'd say I was more in leadership, more engaged than they 8 were in many ways. 9 responsible for pushing them to be responsible. . The last name of . was , or ? My household was less -- they were women I was 10 Q. 11 been the presentence investigation report that was 12 prepared prior to your sentencing - other names were 13 given as your housemates at the time. 14 A. 15 Q. 16 A. 17 live with her at the time that I was arrested, if my 18 memory serves me well. 19 Brooklyn, and, I think 20 lived in Chicago. 21 are definitely old friends of mine and definitely was 22 politically involved as I was. 23 Q. Now, somewhere in your records - it may have What were those names? . I lived with Okay. for many years. A. I did not I lived with her many years in , at that time, I may be wrong about that. But they Did you ever live under the same roof as in those days, 24 25 Okay. I would have to hold myself Actually, no. ? When she was in New York, I lived on JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 22 1 98th Street and she lived on 100th-something Street. 2 we saw each other a lot, but we didn't live under the 3 same roof at that time, I believe. 4 that, but I believe. 5 Q. 6 investigation prepared by the probation department at 7 the time. 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. And, I know, by the way, that, when they came to So Might be wrong about I am reading from page 12 of the presentence 10 speak with you, you really didn't speak with them. 11 A. No. 12 Q. So, I am certain they must have gotten this 13 information from another source other than you. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. It may have been your parents trying to fill in the 16 blanks of the section of the report called Family 17 Situation. 18 1981, you lived at 19 with friends But it says that, from 1979 to October 20, West 98th Street, New York City and six-year-old son and 20 , as well as daughter . 21 "Currently, 22 same people. 23 six-and-a-half-year-old daughter now live there." 24 maybe 25 A. Yes. resides at the same address with the In addition, and her So, came in and moved in after your arrest? She moved in because we wanted the children to JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 23 1 be all together. 2 daughter. 3 father. 4 for the kids after I was arrested. 5 close to her, but I didn't actually live with her. 6 Q. 7 the same dad? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. But her daughter was significantly older than your Okay. Her daughter is sisters with my They are half-sisters, they have the same So they moved in to have a stronger situation So, I was always And, again, your daughter, her daughter, have 10 daughter at that time, at the time of the crime? 11 A. Four years older, yes. 12 Q. But you think maybe 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. ....or, you think this may have been erroneous 15 information? 16 A. 17 to remember is because she and I lived together for a 18 long time in Brooklyn. 19 there when I was arrested, I think she moved -- I think 20 both she and 21 be together. 22 Q. 23 daughter, 24 A. 25 Q. did live there? That's a good question. The reason it's hard for me But I don't think she was living moved in so that all the kids could And, the name of her daughter's father and your dad, what his name? . ? JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 24 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Was he involved in any of the groups that you 3 previously described -- 4 A. -- yes. 5 Q. ....including May 19th? 6 A. Yes, he was. 7 prison. 8 Q. For federal charges? 9 A. No, for state charges in Pennsylvania. And he subsequently spent time in He then was 10 released and worked as a doctor. Both he and 11 are doctors. 12 Q. Medical physicians? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Yeah, I think I read that in the records, too. 15 do you and 16 A. Yes, we do. 17 Q. I know I saw that somewhere and I wanted to ask you 18 about it. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. So it seems. 21 October of 1981? 22 A. 23 have a child and I had helped raise other children for a 24 long time. 25 first thing in my life that pulled me away from being And he died several years ago. Now, have the same birthday? The exact same month and day of the month? She was my birthday present. What milestone was she experiencing by She was almost a year old? She was almost a year old. When I had You know, I had wanted to , I think she was the JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 25 1 completely, totally preoccupied with the group and 2 revolution, and my -- and I think people noticed that. 3 I was criticized for being preoccupied with her. 4 think there was an impulse in me to want to do nothing 5 but be with her, and I felt guilty about that, and I 6 felt like I had to hide that, I felt like it was wrong, 7 and I also knew I was going to get criticized for it, 8 that, it made me sort of under suspicion. 9 Q. Was she walking yet? 10 A. No, she wasn't. 11 when she came to visit me in the federal lockup. 12 we were first arrested, we were transferred to MCC, and 13 she walked toward me and it was actually her first 14 steps. 15 Q. 16 your arrest? 17 A. 18 Q. 19 a woman in that setting could be? 20 lots of mothers. 21 A. 22 split because I didn't think it was legitimate, I guess, 23 according to my political philosophy and my group 24 commitments. 25 I had incredible desire to just do nothing else but I She took her first steps, sadly, When Who was caring for her in those initial days after . Did you enjoy being a single mother, or as single in Right. Because, there were I loved being a mother, and I also felt very It felt like very individualistic, and so JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 26 1 mother her. I enjoyed infancy, but I didn't feel that 2 that was legitimate. 3 Q. 4 terms of the value of children to the group? 5 simply to have new soldiers? 6 motivation for any young woman to have a child in that 7 setting? 8 asking, to the group, if not to be able to shower 9 individual attention? Tell me, what was the philosophy of the group in Was it Was it -- what would be a What was the value of children, I guess I am 10 A. I think that, we certainly were not having children 11 to have little soldiers, but I think we saw ourselves 12 raising our children collectively. 13 too individually connected to my daughter, even though 14 she's my daughter and everyone acknowledged that and 15 recognized that, but I had to temper my feelings of 16 intense intimacy with her with recognizing all our 17 children were being raised together. 18 tension I guess. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 19 A. Miss Clark, you -- absolute conflict. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 22 23 a mother of 24 the group? 25 And so there was a actually felt a conflict -- 20 21 So, I shouldn't get A. Correct. -- between being and your absolute loyalties to JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 27 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 1 The perception 2 at the time, I believe, from what I read, is that, 3 your attentions to the need of the child were 4 individualistic and not committed to the group as a 5 whole. 6 A. Correct. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 7 And, from the 8 perspective of the group, that was a distraction, 9 shall I say? 10 A. Correct. And I was criticized for it. 11 that internal conflict, it was mine to have. 12 I could have said, You know what, I'm taking this kid 13 and I'm gonna to raise her. You know, And, I didn't. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 14 But I had I have a quote 15 here that I think speaks to that, in paragraph 38 of 16 your 440 motion, and you state, and I quote, 17 "Because I had agreed that my daughter would stay 18 with my radical friends, I was more dependent than 19 ever on them to validate my relationship with the 20 group and with my daughter. 21 this arrangement, I chose to perpetuate my sense of 22 absolute loyalty to the group." 23 24 25 A. Rather than question Correct. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: that statement? Do you recall JUDITH CLARK Yes. DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 28 1 A. I think, at the time, I was talking about my 2 stance after my arrest. 3 as well, I didn't want to face the truth of my conflict. 4 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: But I think it's true before, Okay. Thank you. 5 6 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 7 Q. 8 birth of your daughter 9 A. Did you suffer any after the ? I had , yes. I would say 10 for the first month I did, I definitely had some, but I 11 think that, over that year, it became more 12 I had a lot of 13 Q. 14 about the time before the date of the crime. 15 seen some things in your Department of Corrections, at 16 that time, records that I want to inquire about. 17 you in fact pregnant at the time of the crime? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What happened with that pregnancy? 20 A. I had 21 actually had wondered if I was Alright. in that period. Now, I'm coming to the end of my questions . But I have I didn't know I was Were . , about two or 22 23 three weeks before. 24 arrested, 25 , and So, about a month after I was I JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 29 1 Q. Did that happen in federal custody, or county 2 custody, state custody? 3 A. In county custody. 4 Q. I am going to ask my colleagues if they have any 5 other questions about this time period we have been 6 discussing between you returning to New York and the 7 date of the crime. COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 8 Any other follow up? 9 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 10 Nothing further for me at this time. 11 12 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 13 Q. 14 we wrap this up, we may be going back to some sections. 15 But again, just to try to keep some order. 16 A. Sure. 17 Q. ....trying to do it this way. And, of course, you know, you can imagine by the time Now I want to focus on the date of the crime. 18 19 Well, maybe even a little bit before the crime, to 20 explain, you know, the planning and all of that. I also gathered, from official documentation, 21 22 that you're a petit woman? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Your records say that, at the time of the crime, you 25 were only - and probably still are - about five-foot JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 30 1 three-inches tall? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. About 115 pounds at that time in your life? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. And you were 32 at the time of the crime. 6 accurate? 7 A. A month shy of 32, yes. 8 Q. You would have been, I think -- I want to say 33 the 9 month after? Is that 10 A. Thirty-two the month after. 11 Q. You were turning 32 the month after? 12 A. Yes, yes, yes. 13 Q. Now, that would make you probably the youngest person 14 of those who were arrested. 15 information about everyone else's ages, you appeared to 16 be the youngest person in that group of people, again, 17 that were arrested. 18 A. Right. 19 Q. How long were you associated with the other known 20 co-defendants and/or co-conspirators for the events that 21 happened on October 21st, 1981? 22 A. 23 and with some of them not at all. 24 was a public person, I was doing public political work. 25 I worked with people in the Black Movement who also were Because, based on other I was associated with some of them for a long time, The setup was that, I JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 31 1 public political people, but all of us were also 2 supporting efforts of people who were not public and 3 doing illegal things. 4 the people that were involved in the crime, and there 5 were other people that I personally didn't know. 6 was associated with -- there were public groups that 7 were both politically supporting and sort of materially 8 supporting the building of a Black Liberation Army; and, 9 I saw myself as someone who supported that, and had So, I had -- so I knew some of But I 10 supported people who had been arrested for that, and 11 most of that work had been public work. 12 was always you have to do what is necessary, and 13 therefore, you have to be willing to do what's necessary 14 to support it. So I had a strong rhetoric about that. COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 15 16 But my rhetoric Commissioner Ludlow has a question at this point. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 17 In that regard, 18 again, I would like to refer back to your own words 19 in the 440 motion that I think speaks to the point 20 on the table at this moment. "My participation in the crime was 21 22 inexcusable. At the time of my arrest, I was 23 31 years old, a mother of an 11-month-old baby, and 24 a member of the May 19th Communist organization -- a 25 small, tightly knit self-defined revolutionary anti- JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 32 1 imperialist organization. My political activities, 2 loyalties to the comrades and identity as a 3 revolutionary had been the defining reality of my 4 entire adult life. 5 the mainstream culture and values of this country. 6 Bolstered by that viewpoint, I had cut myself off 7 from any real relationships with people outside my 8 closed political circles and refused to recognize 9 any reality that contradicted our collective I did not identify myself with 10 viewpoint. 11 considered myself 'at war' with America." 12 A. I was a single-minded fanatic who That is correct, that was my mind. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 13 You relate to 14 those words, Miss Clark, in terms of framing your 15 mindset at the juncture we are at? 16 A. Yes, yes. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 17 Thank you, ma'am. 18 19 A. And, I think I, you know, thought that everyone I 20 supported on trial, it was unfair they were on trial and 21 that, obviously, I experienced the government as 22 repressive and didn't respect that repression. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 23 24 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 25 Q. Thank you. Now, would you continue to describe yourself at the JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 33 1 point in time when the planning was commencing as you 2 were before as both follower and leader to some extent, 3 or.... 4 A. 5 is telling people they better do more leafleting or 6 fundraising. 7 was primarily in the political activity. 8 a follower in the sense I believed I had to follow black 9 leadership, and so, if I was asked to do something, as I In May 19th I was a leader. Most of what that meant The leadership part I was involved with I think I was 10 was in this case, which was that, money was needed to 11 build a black underground, and the way that money was 12 being raised was through a Brinks truck; and the way to 13 make it happen quickly and easily was to have white 14 people as getaway drivers, and therefore, they needed me 15 as a getaway driver. 16 Q. 17 that, the composition of the group you aligned yourself 18 with in the planning of this particular robbery, now 19 included black men and/or women? 20 A. Yes, yes. 21 Q. And, it was your decision to follow their leadership? 22 A. Absolutely. 23 Q. ....to the extent they were involved? 24 A. Yes, yes. 25 Q. Describe the meetings that led up to the crime or the So, would it be fair to say, based on your response, JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 34 1 point that it was organized and planned? 2 A. 3 It was actually just one-on-one, someone saying, This 4 needs to happen, here's how it needs to happen, here's 5 where you need to be. Right. There were very few meetings that I was in. It wasn't like big meetings with everyone there. 6 7 The way I think perceived it at the time was: I have a 8 support role and I only need to know what I need to 9 know. So, what I needed to know was, I had to go in a 10 car up to Rockland, and I knew, you know, the position I 11 had to be in. 12 Q. 13 the same one individual in these one-on-one 14 conversations, or was it more than one? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Can you spell that? 17 A. I'm not sure I can spell it. Okay. Who was your primary contact? It was primarily a man named M'Tyari. M-'-T-y-a-r-i. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 18 Is that the same individual referred to as Mutulu Shakur? 19 20 A. 21 arrest. 22 the person I was talking to at the time. No. M'Tyari was killed in a shootout after the So, he was associated with Mutulu, but he was COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 23 Did you have any direct contact, at any time, with Mutulu Shakur? 24 25 Was it always A. I had a lot of contact with Mutulu; not particularly JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 35 1 about this crime. He and I had done political work 2 together. 3 committed, and he and I probably had a long association 4 over a number of years, primarily in terms of supporting 5 the same politics and pushing for them around political 6 prisoners and things like that. 7 person I was dealing with in this moment. He was someone who pushed me about being But he wasn't the COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 8 In hindsight, would you say Mr. Shakur was in fact the central 9 strategist to the crime in October 1981? 10 11 A. I can only say that because of what I knew 12 afterwards, to be honest. 13 compartmentalize everything, and the whole picture did 14 not come out until afterwards. 15 but more based on what I understood afterwards than 16 before. Because, the way we worked to But, so, I could say it, COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 17 Alright. With 18 regard to preparing for the crime, did you make two 19 trial runs into Rockland County in preparation for 20 the actual crime? 21 A. 22 trial runs. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 23 You made no trial runs into Rockland? 24 25 No, I was not on the trial runs, I was not on the A. I think I went up there once to see where it was, but JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 1 there was no trial runs that I was in. 2 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 36 And did you 3 practice with weapons or a weapon such as a 4 .38-caliber pistol? 5 A. No, absolutely not. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 6 prior to the commission of the crime? 7 8 At any time A. No, absolutely not, no. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 9 Over what time 10 period would you say you, quote, unquote, "prepared 11 for the crime"? 12 months? 13 A. Would it have been days, weeks, Days, it was days. 14 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 15 during that period, I presume - tell me if I am 16 wrong - you had opportunities to exit from the plot? 17 A. Okay. And Absolutely. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 18 I think you 19 identified in your affidavit that I referenced 20 earlier, or it could have been in your interview 21 with 22 identified there were two exit points which you 23 encountered that you could have withdrawn from the 24 planning of the crime and commission of the crime 25 but you chose not to? in 2011, in one of those you JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 37 1 A. 2 I would say is, when I was asked to do it, everything in 3 my own gut said, You can't do this, you have a baby. 4 And I squashed that impulse. 5 questioned the rightness of the crime, I'm not saying I 6 thought they were wrong to do it, I would never be able 7 to say that about myself back then. 8 self-protection level, I was scared to put myself in 9 that situation, and I shut that down and said, I have to 10 I'm not sure what I was referring to there. But what I'm not even saying I But just out of a do it, I am a good soldier. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 11 But you knew 12 leading up to crime during the -- I think you days 13 or weeks? 14 A. Days. What was it? In preparation. It was almost immediate, basically. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 15 Did you know 16 that the ultimate goal here was to steal money in 17 significant -- 18 A. -- yes. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 19 a million dollars? 20 21 22 -- amounts, over A. Yes, yes. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: And, that the 23 intent of those funds were to buy bombs, ammunition, 24 weaponry, bulletproof vests, assault weapons? 25 knew that the ultimate goal was to buy weaponry and You JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 38 items of mass destruction, correct? 1 2 A. Yes, yes. I knew absolutely that it was going to be 3 an armed robbery and that I was going to be going into 4 that armed robbery as a getaway driver. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 5 Did you also 6 know assault weapons were going to be implemented 7 and engaged by the perpetrators in the commission of 8 the crimes? 9 A. I don't know if I knew what kind of weapons. I just 10 knew that they were armed. I definitely knew that they 11 were going to be armed, and I was willing to do that, 12 absolutely. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 13 We are talking 14 about a band of perpetrators, direct perpetrators, I 15 think it was what, four or five that were armed with 16 assault weapons? 17 A. Correct. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 18 And bulletproof 19 vests and -- squat type equipment to carry out the 20 crime, is that right? 21 A. Correct, absolutely. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 22 Thank you again. 23 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 24 Q. Had you ever held a gun before the day of the crime? 25 A. The only time I ever held a gun was a rifle, hunting, JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 39 1 probably in 1969. But I was not someone who was 2 involved with guns. 3 Q. Were you armed on the date of the crime? 4 A. No, I was not. 5 Q. The vehicle that you were driving, do you know whose 6 vehicle that was? 7 A. 8 the only person who was in it until after the shootout 9 with the police. That was the vehicle that I drove up there, and I was 10 Q. And, so you drove the vehicle -- 11 A. -- yes. 12 Q. ....from New York City to -- 13 A. -- yes. 14 Q. ....to Rockland County? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Was this a vehicle that you drove as part of a member 17 of your group? 18 collective? 19 A. It was a vehicle I borrowed from a friend, actually. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. Someone who was close to us politically but not -- 22 she didn't know what I was using it for. Was this a vehicle rented, loaned? Someone not in the collective? COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 23 tan Honda? 24 25 Was this a vehicle owned by the A. Yes. Was that car a JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 40 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 1 And you drove the tan Honda from New York City up to Nanuet? 2 3 NYSID# A. Yes. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 4 Did you, at any 5 time, drive the red Chevy van that carried the armed 6 perpetrators? 7 A. No, I didn't. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 8 Were you anywhere near the shooting that occurred that killed 9 ? 10 11 A. Where I was, where I was positioned -- it's a large 12 shopping mall and it has a large parking lot. 13 the end of the parking lot which was sort of at a higher 14 elevation. 15 you are referring to, I could see when that car was 16 driving off and I could follow it. 17 quite a ways, I can't say how long it was, but it was 18 quite a ways. 19 after the robbery. I was at So that I could see, I guess it's that car So, I was -- it was But I had a view of that car driving off COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 20 Now, there was a 21 third vehicle that was involved described as a white 22 Oldsmobile. 23 reportedly registered to a woman in East Orange, New 24 Jersey. 25 A. What do you know about that? That was I know there was at least one other car that was JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 41 1 involved when we were driving. I can't personally 2 remember if it was a white Oldsmobile; it could've been 3 a white Oldsmobile. 4 car at the time. But there was at least one other COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 5 Thank you. 6 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 7 Q. 8 mall, did you see or hear the shots fired? 9 A. From your vantage point in the parking lot at the I definitely didn't see it, and I don't know if I 10 heard it. Because I've spent 35 years knowing about it, 11 I can't remember if I heard it at the time or I remember 12 afterwards. 13 I think that I must've had to have heard gunshots, 14 because even if I couldn't see it, gunshots are loud and 15 you can hear it. 16 that. 17 Q. 18 that spot at the mall? 19 A. 20 to be, you know, and that was the only -- it wasn't a 21 meeting; it was a person telling me: 22 want you to be. 23 Q. 24 did you drive someone and then follow their direction to 25 that location? I remember seeing the car speeding away and But I don't have a memory of hearing Was there any pre-meeting prior to your parking in Only the time when I was shown where they wanted me This is where we Did someone physically drive you to that location, or JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# I think we drove together. 42 1 A. 2 we drove in the same car. 3 don't think I drove at the time. 4 Q. And who was this person? 5 A. That was M'Tyari. 6 Q. M'Tyari. 7 it? 8 A. And I followed it, yes. 9 Q. And, you say you were not armed? 10 A. No. 11 Q. As far as you know, there was no gun in that car; it 12 was a friend's car who wasn't associated, right? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. And, was there anything else that was to be used in 15 the commission of any crime in that car? 16 A. Okay. If my memory serves me, And I can't remember -- I So the car drives by and you follow No. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 17 Uh, how do you 18 account for a search of the tan Honda that 19 discovered a .38-caliber under the front seat, 20 loaded with a clip? 21 A. By the time we were arrested, there were two other 22 people that came into the car. 23 situation, and I think, you know, something else went 24 on. 25 to be armed. It was a totally chaotic But personally, I wasn't armed, I wasn't supposed My whole role was to be sort of a decoy JUDITH CLARK 1 DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 43 getaway driver so..... COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 2 There was an 3 observation made that, when you crashed the car, you 4 attempted to reach behind the seat, and it was 5 presumed you were reaching for that .38. 6 deny that? Do you 7 A. I've read that, and I definitely deny that. 8 wouldn't of reached for a gun, not because -- just, I 9 wouldn't of reached for a gun because I wouldn't have 10 thought to reach for a gun. 11 prepared to do. It wasn't what I was COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 12 I Alright, thank you. 13 14 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 15 Q. 16 out that day on that drive, did you consider the 17 possibility of being arrested or killed? 18 A. 19 would not let myself have those kinds of thoughts. 20 put myself in that same kind of trance state that I 21 described about earlier times. 22 know, Let me get through this and then it will be over 23 and I will proven, you know, that I'm willing, you know, 24 my commitment, and it will give me some space to 25 continue to raise my daughter and do political work, Now, did you consider the possibility, before you set I think I had fear, a sort of general fear, but I I I think I just said, you JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 44 1 less risky political work. So, I felt it, I felt the 2 possibility of being arrested but I didn't let myself 3 follow that train of thought. 4 myself, This is what you have to do, you have to do it, 5 I have to do it. I just kept saying to COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 6 You were a 7 blinded revolutionary at that time, is that correct, 8 ma'am? 9 A. Yes. And to the extent that I felt fear, I was 10 ashamed of my fear, so I didn't let myself acknowledge 11 my fear. 12 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 13 COMMISSIONER STANFORD: COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 15 A. M'Tyari, yes. COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 18 A. Not that day. And It had to be the day before. COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 21 The one where you went to that location -- 22 A. -- right. COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 24 25 That day? you drove to the location or.... 19 23 You said you met with M'Tyari? 16 20 Commissioner Thompson has a question, ma'am. 14 17 Thank you. him? ...was with JUDITH CLARK 1 A. DIN#83G0313 45 Right. COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 2 And that was your only contact? 3 4 NYSID# A. Correct. COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 5 And you spoke 6 to him on the phone, you said two times, before this 7 occurred? 8 A. Not on the phone. 9 10 A. Always in person. COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Always met? COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Alright. Correct, yes. 11 12 what car did you drive to that location the day 13 before? 14 A. I honestly don't remember. 15 driver, I don't think it was my car. I don't think I was the COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 16 17 you to the location. 18 prior to this? And So he drove Was there any tactical plan 19 A. 20 backup, just stay here; you are going to see a car 21 leaving, follow that car. 22 even have to go into your car; but just in case, we need 23 you to be a backup getaway driver and you will follow 24 others out of there. 25 He just said, you know, You are just here as a If all goes well, no one will So that's about as much as -- it was sort of -- JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 46 1 I don't know, maybe he saw my nervousness so he was 2 reassuring. 3 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 4 you as the getaway driver, as you stated, but was 5 anything planned: 6 was your role in that? 7 individuals entering your car were going to be 8 armed? 9 confrontation like happen, did they explain the 11 A. Well, what if it goes wrong, what And, that you knew the And if they were going to have a outcome? 10 Now, they used Because it looks like -- -- right. COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 12 ....they were 13 shooting to kill and that was their mindset at that 14 time. 15 A. 16 a lot of specific information, but just sort of the aura 17 of this was that these people had, you know -- if they 18 do a robbery, they are good at what they do, they go in, 19 they come out and then it's over with. 20 I didn't -- I certainly didn't engage in any discussion 21 with anyone about what it if goes wrong. 22 certainly didn't let myself ask that question. 23 Right. I think my feeling was, or my sense from not So I think that COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: And I Well, being 24 involved with this group for so long, did you ever 25 think that they had to carry weapons? This was a JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 47 1 lot of money and they really believe in this cause, 2 that, their mindset was they going to shoot to kill 3 if anyone stands in the way? 4 A. I didn't see them as that. First of all, most of my 5 contact was with people who were not actually doing the 6 robberies, they were the people who were supporting the 7 people doing the robberies. 8 been, Well, these guys really know what they are doing; 9 they are not going in there to shoot to kill; they are But my view of them had 10 going to go in there to use guns to intimidate people to 11 get the money and then get out fast. If I let myself question that, I would say, If 12 13 you are going with guns and there's resistance, someone 14 could get killed -- I absolutely could have said that to 15 myself and said, What do I think of that? 16 let myself ask that question. COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 17 And, I didn't Were you aware 18 of any other robberies that went bad and people were 19 shot and killed prior to this? 20 A. No, no. COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 21 22 clip found on you? 23 weapon that was found in the vehicle? Was there a Did you have a clip for that 24 A. There was a clip in the bag that I had, yes, and it 25 was not my clip and I don't know how it got there. JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 48 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 1 And, this is your purse, your personal property? 2 3 NYSID# A. Yup, absolutely. COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 4 And, was there 5 glass from the officers' vehicle found on your 6 clothing? 7 about? Were you that close, or how did that come 8 A. I know that, at trial, there's testimony there was 9 glass fragments found. The closest I ever was to the 10 U-Haul was down a road that was lower than where the 11 U-Haul was. 12 I can't answer that question. 13 I stayed in that car. 14 didn't. 15 -- when the shootout happened, and was in that car at a 16 sort of side exit road, when two people jumped into my 17 car. I don't know how glass fragments carry, so But I never left my car, I wish I had driven off, but I I stayed in the car during the time when that COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 18 Right. So you did observe that shooting from the U-Haul truck? 19 20 A. 21 didn't probably allow me to see the shooting, but I 22 certainly knew that there was a shooting at that time, 23 absolutely. 24 25 Yes. I certainly heard the shooting. The angle And I waited -- excuse me? COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: Well, we are talking about, uh, different steps here in terms of JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 49 1 vehicles. 2 on the Brinks truck was facilitated by a red Chevy 3 van. 4 A. It was reported that the initial attack Correct. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 5 After the 6 shootings at the Nanuet Mall, the money was -- a 7 certain amount of money was transferred from the 8 Brinks truck into this red Chevy van? 9 A. Correct. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 10 My understanding 11 of the facts is that the perpetrators proceeded to a 12 second location which was -- 13 A. -- correct. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 14 That was some 15 kind of a commercial shopping area. 16 transfer from the red Chevy van to a, call it a 17 U-Haul truck, for lack of a better description? 18 A. -- correct. 19 A. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: And, I believe Miss Boudin was in that truck. 23 25 Like, a small Correct. 22 24 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: delivery van? 20 21 There was a A. Correct. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: And there was JUDITH CLARK NYSID# 50 was a small Caucasian male driving? 1 2 DIN#83G0313 A. Correct. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 3 That was all 4 planned in advance to throw off the police, is that 5 correct? 6 A. Yes. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 7 Were you aware 8 of that transfer point, and were you at that 9 location when the transfer took place? 10 A. I wasn't aware where that transfer point was going to 11 be, beforehand, but I knew I was supposed to follow the 12 car to it. 13 the time of the transfer point, that was the point at 14 which actually a money bag was put in the car that I was 15 driving. 16 the -- And I was at the transfer point. And that, So, there was a money bag put in the, in COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 17 -- in the trunk? 18 19 A. The trunk, yes, at that time. And then we drove, you 20 know, sort of caravan away, and I was at the end of that 21 caravan. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 22 Did you know 23 where you were headed, ultimately, once you left 24 with the U-Haul truck? 25 A. I knew we were going to be going back to the City. JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 51 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 1 By way of Tappan Zee Bridge? 2 3 A. I don't remember. I am sure I knew then because -- I 4 am sure I knew that much because I -- I'm sure I knew 5 that much, but I don't remember how to get there. 6 just know that the place in which we were going to get 7 on the highway -- I don't know what highway that is 8 anymore because it's 35 years. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 9 Right. I Mountainview. 10 A. But the highway at that entrance was into, 11 was taking us to a highway that was going to take us 12 back to the City. 13 New York State COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: Off of Thruway, 87? 14 15 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: A. Correct. 16 17 Mountainview Boulevard in the town of Nyack, 18 correct? 19 A. Correct. Yes, yes. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 20 Alright, thank you. 21 22 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 23 Q. 24 My last question had to do with you considering the 25 possibility of being injured or arrested. Now, so you go to -- no, let me go back for a second. JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 52 1 A. Right. 2 Q. Did you, before you left home that day, did you make 3 any arrangements for ? 4 conversation with someone: Hey, listen, if I don't come 5 back this is what I need you to do? 6 A. 7 that possibility. 8 have stuff I have to do, I will be back this evening. 9 And, that's all they knew. No, I did not. Okay. Did you have a Anything like that? I was in full, complete denial about I left her with a roommate, saying, I 10 Q. So you didn't actually see any shooting at the 11 mall; you did see the transfer of people and/or property 12 at the second location. 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. What exactly did you see? 15 seeing at the transfer point? 16 A. 17 going into the U-Haul. 18 disorganized and frantic, I guess is the way I would say 19 it. 20 to, Open up your trunk and put money in it. Because, I 21 had not been told that was going to happen. And then I 22 saw people getting into the cars and driving away and I 23 followed. 24 Q. 25 by name, even if it was just first name? What can you remember I saw people coming out of that red Oldsmobile and Everyone looked very For instance, I was pretty shocked when they said How many of the people, at that point, did you know JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 53 1 A. I'm trying to think. 2 Q. Which three were those? 3 A. I'm trying to think who I even knew. 4 I am hesitating is because afterwards, I knew much more 5 than I did at the moment. 6 aware of know it was who was doing the actual robbery, 7 you know. 8 identify who was who at the time. 9 Q. Okay. Maybe three. The reason why So at the moment, I was not So I -- I -- and I didn't sort of try to I guess I'm trying to determine whether or not 10 you knew any of the people who you saw -- 11 A. -- right. 12 Q. ....getting into, or already inside, or coming out of 13 vehicles by name? 14 Boudin; if you knew, for example, Samuel Brown? 15 know any of them from your travel or your association? 16 A. 17 was a fugitive at that time; and because I was a public 18 person, we didn't have contact in that period. 19 known her beforehand. 20 not from this involvement. 21 was part of BAAANA. 22 Q. What's that? 23 A. He was part of a black acupuncture program which is 24 where I knew both Mutulu and M'Tyari from. 25 them from that context, yes. Right. If you knew, for example, Kathy I knew Kathy, but not at that time. Did you Kathy I had So, I knew her quite well, but I knew Sam Brown because he So I knew JUDITH CLARK Okay. DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 54 1 Q. My question is fairly simple. It's just, 2 simply, did you see folks that you recognized in that 3 second location, even though you might not have been 4 meeting and talking -- 5 A. -- right. 6 Q. ....and planning together just before the commission? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. My question is, did you say to yourself, That's 9 Kathy; oh, that's Sam? 10 A. I actually didn't see Kathy at that time. 11 Kathy later, at the next thing. 12 that time, but I probably saw Sam and I probably saw 13 Kuwasi. 14 Oh, that's so and so. So, I didn't see her at But I don't remember seeing anyone and saying, COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 15 How about Donald Weems? 16 17 A. That's Kuwasi. Yes, I -- we saw Donald Weems. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 18 19 acquainted with Donald Weems. 20 alias as what? You were And he was known as a 21 A. 22 to know him because he was my co-defendant. 23 didn't know him until afterwards, but..... 24 25 I only saw I didn't -- I actually didn't know him then. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: a scout at Nanuet Mall? I got But I He was a lead or JUDITH CLARK 1 A. DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 55 Right. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 2 He was there ahead of the red truck? 3 4 A. Right, right. But I know that from what I know 5 afterwards, not actually before. 6 because we were co-defendants, but I wouldn't of 7 recognized him at the scene. And I got to know him COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 8 Okay, alright. Thank you. 9 10 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 11 Q. 12 Samuel Brown? 13 A. Yup. 14 Q. And that's it? 15 A. I don't know if I -- I don't know who -- it was such 16 a chaotic moment, I don't remember who I saw. 17 saw figures moving. 18 had just seen him up there. 19 think probably -- the only other person that I saw, 20 actually, was a white woman, Marilyn Buck. 21 Q. And this is at the scene of the transfer? 22 A. Yes. 23 I did. 24 Q. 25 records don't have the details that we are seeking from So, at the transfer point, you did recognize Sam, I just I definitely remember him because I I probably saw M'Tyari. No, I don't think I saw her there. I Well, maybe I don't remember, I'm sorry. That's okay. And that was a long time ago. And our JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 56 1 you. 2 A. 3 I know comes from later. 4 and how much have I pieced together, sort of backward 5 memory, rather than what I saw at that moment. 6 Q. Right, right, right. Okay, fair enough. And I feel like a lot of detail So, how much do I remember, That's a fair comment. I just wanted to clarify. 7 You said M'Tyari. 8 So, he was there and he was a participant that day? 9 A. I believe so. Again, I am trying to remember who I 10 saw, and I'm thinking, Oh, did I see M'Tyari that day? 11 And I think I did. 12 because later on it came out or because I saw it there? 13 When I think back at it, it was pure chaos that day. 14 And I don't remember sort of seeing individuals; I sort 15 of remember being in the car, not knowing why things 16 seemed chaotic, being shocked when I had -- and then 17 moving along. 18 Q. 19 if you heard gunfire and cars speeding away. 20 A. Right, right. 21 Q. Okay. 22 trunk of the car you were driving? 23 A. 24 I'm trying to remember it, I think it was probably 25 M'Tyari. But, you know, do I remember that Well, it might be reasonable for you to expect chaos So who put the money in the trunk, in the I think it was M'Tyari. I was saying that -- when JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 57 1 Q. Did you have to give him the key so that he could do 2 that? 3 A. 4 pulled from inside, or I got out. 5 remember, but I don't think I gave anyone the keys. 6 Q. 7 features the Hondas had in those years. 8 A. Right. 9 Q. But I wouldn't of expected it to have some interior No, I think I did it from, you know, something you I don't actually Now, I'm not a car expert and I don't know what the 10 way that you could've let -- 11 A. 12 because I can't remember if I got out then and did it or 13 gave the keys to anyone to do it. 14 Q. 15 the trunk was M'Tyari? 16 A. I think so. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. But honestly, I'm not sure. -- I actually -- I mean, I'm sort of making it up now But you believe that the person that put the money in COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 19 20 21 Commissioner Ludlow? COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: If I can 22 interject, I think we jumped over some salient facts 23 here that deserve focus that occurred at Nanuet, 24 before we move on to the Korvette store, Korvette 25 spelled with a K. JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 58 And, uh, at Nanuet Mall, Brinks guard 1 , he didn't have a chance. 2 Those 3 automatic weapons absolutely overwhelmed him. 4 believe he died at the scene. 5 revolver that was no match for the assault weapons 6 that were trained on him. 7 A. I He had, I assume, a Correct. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 8 In addition, , the other Brinks guard, was wounded and he 9 10 took some pretty good hits; not as bad as 11 but he was wounded. 12 into the Brinks truck for some degree of cover from 13 the assault gunfire. 14 Brinks employee associated and assigned to that 15 truck. 16 truck, remained in the passenger seat, and it was, 17 uh, either Donald Weems or Samuel Brown trained a 18 shotgun on the windows of that Brinks truck. 19 had to dive down to the floor, or nearly so, to 20 protect himself from shattering glass. 21 He was able to pull himself was the third reportedly stayed behind in the And I think before we move on to 22 Korvette, we should recognize the horrendous, 23 unbelievable assault that cost the life of 24 25 , and almost caused the loss of , who, as you know, ironically he was killed in the JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 59 1 September 11th World Trade Center. These are three 2 distinguished Brinks employees who were trying to do 3 a legitimate job, trying to protect other people's 4 assets. 5 to transport to a depository somewhere, and they 6 were absolutely overwhelmed by the force that was 7 thrust upon them with no notice. The monies from the stores, they were going 8 A. I think when I think about the crime that day, I 9 don't think about all the specifics of, you know, where 10 I was and what I did. What I think about is exactly 11 what you are speaking of which is that -- that, at that 12 moment in that first part, 13 death, and 14 just as easily, and there was no thought about human 15 life at that point, and, that I'm appalled at myself for 16 having a direct role in what happened to them, and later 17 on what happened to the police officers. 18 with you, that that's -- that's what I think about now 19 when I think about the crime, I think about what's 20 happened to them. was shot to was shot and could have died COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 21 And I agree Well, I believe 22 it's very important that we focus on those facts 23 that I presented so that the chronology is true and 24 accurate before we move on, and to pay respect to 25 the memory of , and to the memory of JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 60 and the trauma that 1 went through. 2 3 NYSID# A. Absolutely. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 4 And 5 additionally, there where spectators who were 6 passersby who gathered. 7 facts is that one of the perpetrators actually 8 trained a weapon on passersby to keep them at bay, 9 presumably so that no one would intervene with the And my understanding of the 10 plot. 11 happened directly to Brinks and indirectly to the 12 passersby. 13 A. So, this was a multidimensional thing that Right. 14 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 15 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Okay, thank you. Now, were you at that location as well? 16 17 A. I was at the -- I was in the parking lot above that. 18 So, I couldn't actually see the actual movement of what 19 was going on during that time. COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 20 But you were 21 instructed to follow that vehicle once it left that 22 location? 23 A. Correct. COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 24 25 what you did? And that's JUDITH CLARK 1 A. DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 61 And that's what I did. COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 2 And you didn't 3 observe anything that was there: 4 with bullet holes, any bodies on the ground? 5 didn't observe any of that as you passed by to 6 follow this car -- that van? I didn't pass by them. The Brinks trucks 7 A. 8 direction, and I followed the car in the opposite 9 direction. You The car drove in the opposite So I didn't actually observe -- I didn't get 10 closer to the murder that just happened, I drove further 11 away from it. But I heard it. COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 12 You heard it? 13 A. I'm sure I -- I only know that because there's no way 14 you can hear gunshots and not hear it. 15 know I heard those gunshots, even though I didn't know 16 exactly what happened. COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 17 What did you think happened when you heard the gunshots? 18 19 So that's how I A. Excuse me? COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 20 What did you 21 think happened when you heard the gunshots? 22 A. 23 automatic drive. 24 anything except do what you are supposed to do. 25 I don't think I was thinking, I think I was on I think I was not letting myself think COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: How many JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 62 1 individuals were involved, do you think, that you 2 saw that day besides, you know, the co-defendants? 3 Did you see -- was it 10, 12? 4 you see? 5 A. 6 would say. 7 afterwards, but I'm sure there were at least five people 8 involved in the robbery and there were at least three 9 cars. I think that there were probably five people, I I mean, again, I only know what I know from COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 10 Do you know of anyone that got away? 11 12 No. How many people did A. No, absolutely not. COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 13 Okay. 14 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 15 Q. 16 placed in the trunk of the car you were driving and 17 vehicles were abandon and other vehicles occupied? 18 A. 19 much longer than it was. 20 That's what I would say, it was probably minutes, but I 21 don't know, really, how long it was. 22 Q. 23 your position in the caravan - as you described it? 24 A. There was at least one car between me and the U-Haul. 25 Q. And you were in front or behind? How long were you at the second scene when money was I don't know how long it was. It probably felt like It was probably minutes. And when you drove away, where were you? What was JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 63 1 A. I was behind, I was in back of that. 2 Q. So at least three vehicles, with the U-Haul type 3 truck - if it was a U-Haul type truck - in the middle? 4 A. 5 was another car between me and the U-Haul and then there 6 was me. 7 Q. 8 before the U-Haul was stopped? 9 A. No, I think the U-Haul was in front. Okay. I think there Now, how long were you driving before the -- I don't know how long it was. I think it was only a 10 few minutes, actually. But I know that when we -- when 11 I was driving, following them to the entrance to the 12 highway, there was already a roadblock. 13 drove up to the roadblock and I turned on that side 14 road, I guess Mountainview Road, and I just drove a 15 little ways up and then stopped my car and waited. 16 Q. 17 you and the U-Haul to get to the on-ramp? 18 A. They went on the on-ramp and I didn't. 19 Q. You stayed on the road that were you traveling on? 20 A. No, there's like -- there were two roads to turn 21 into; one was the entrance to the highway and the other 22 was a road. 23 the entrance to the highway where the roadblock was. 24 Q. What about the car in the middle? 25 A. I think that it must have been behind the U-Haul, And the U-Haul So did you have to pass by the car that was ahead of I went to the road and the U-Haul went to JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 64 1 must have been where the U-Haul was. I know it wasn't 2 where I was, so I'm not sure where it could've been. 3 Q. 4 only proceeds from the crime is one bag of money in your 5 trunk? 6 A. Right, right. 7 Q. And as far as you know, there are no weapons in your 8 vehicle? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. And you're the only occupant? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. And you can't see what's happening up ahead? 13 A. I mean I can see the U-Haul, I can see it. 14 it's up a hill, I couldn't see everything going on. 15 I definitely heard all those shots when that happened, 16 and I saw people running from that and I saw you the two 17 people that got into my car. 18 Q. Who ran from that into your car? 19 A. Samuel Brown and David Gilbert. 20 Q. Did you recognize David Gilbert? 21 met -- 22 A. -- yes. 23 Q. ....spoken with him? 24 A. Yes, yes, we were in SDS together. 25 Q. Now, as far as you knew, did he have any relationship And at this point in time, as far as you know, the Because But Had you ever seen, JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 65 1 to Miss Boudin? 2 A. 3 have a relationship to Miss Boudin. 4 relationship. 5 Q. Did they have any children together? 6 A. They have a child together, yes. 7 infant son. 8 Q. 9 parked? I don't know if I knew back then, but I know he did They were in a They, also, had an So only the two of them came to where you were 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. And did they have anything with them, any weapons, 12 any money? 13 A. 14 him, but only because he was part of the actual robbery 15 team. 16 Q. Did you say Samuel or Solomon? 17 A. I'm sorry, he was known by both names. 18 Q. But it's the same person? 19 A. The same person, yes. 20 Q. Samuel Brown, also known as Solomon? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. You didn't see rifles or long guns, weapons? 23 A. No, I don't remember him carrying anything like that, 24 but I also wasn't looking that carefully. 25 into the car, jumped into the car, he was in the back I don't know. I assumed that Solomon had a weapon on They just ran JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 66 1 and said, Drive. 2 Q. Where did David Gilbert enter the car? 3 A. In the front seat, with me. 4 Q. And you saw them running from up ahead? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you saw them from a distance from where they 7 started to your car? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Which doesn't sound like it was very close, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. But you didn't notice if they had long guns? 12 A. I don't remember -- I don't think that Solomon had 13 any -- I don't think they had long guns on them, no. 14 didn't see them carrying them. 15 Q. 16 the car that you know weren't there before? 17 A. Only once we were arrested. 18 Q. And, once you were arrested, what guns were found in 19 the vehicle? 20 A. 21 what I heard it. 22 don't know that from then. 23 that car. 24 Q. Did you see it recovered at the scene of your arrest? 25 A. No. I Did you discover, later on, that there were guns in There was a gun, a -- I think a pistol or a .380 is But I know that from the trial, I But there was a gun found in JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 67 1 Q. Again, you had a purse? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. And, ammunition was found in the purse? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Was there an opportunity, that you can think of, 6 where someone could have put it in your purse or.... 7 A. 8 very well have ended up there. 9 leave with it, because I wasn't one of the arms people, I think that it was a very chaotic scene and it could I just know I didn't 10 I was one of the getaway drivers. So the only 11 explanation I have is that one of the two people that 12 ran into the car ditched it there. 13 thing I can imagine, but I don't know. 14 Q. 15 ammunition found in your purse suitable for the weapon 16 that was found in the car? 17 A. That's the only And, as far as you were to learn later, was the In the evidence that is what it said, correct. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 18 We spoke about a 19 bag of money that was put in the trunk of the tan 20 Honda. 21 A. Yes. COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 22 My 23 understanding is that bag of money contained in 24 excess of $800,000. 25 A. Correct, that's my understanding too. JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 68 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 1 Thank you again. 2 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 3 Q. 4 in your car; David Gilbert's up front, Samuel Brown's in 5 the back, and Samuel says, Drive? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. So, which way did you drive? 8 way you had to pass that scene? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Or, in a different direction? 11 A. In a different direction. 12 direction that whole time. 13 saying to myself, I should just leave. And, I wouldn't 14 let myself leave, I just stayed there. But when they 15 said, Drive, I just kept driving along the same road 16 that I was facing. 17 honest. 18 Q. 19 before you were stopped again? 20 A. 21 And, at a certain point, a police car that was driving 22 in the opposite direction turned around and started 23 following me. 24 faster, and made a left turn and crashed into a 25 retaining wall. Okay. So, Samuel Brown, David Gilbert come and get Did you drive in such a I was facing the opposite You know, I was sitting And by then I was lost, to be And how far did you get? It was not very far. How long did you drive I kept driving along that road. And I continued to drive, and drove JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 69 COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 1 Before I go on 2 any further to what happened after that, 3 Commissioner Ludlow, would you care to commemorate 4 for the record what happened at that the second 5 scene? 6 7 Are you able to do that? COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: We are speaking about the entrance to the Thruway? 8 COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 9 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: Yes, sir. My understanding 10 of the facts, Miss Clark, and, if I misstate 11 something, please correct me. 12 Thruway was absolutely devastating. 13 detective, Detective 14 The radio traffic, uh, for the police was chaotic; 15 one call was interrupting another call, a third call 16 was stepping on yet another call. 17 The scene at the , arrived on the scene. was there, Officer . 18 There was a But, Detective , Officer Detective was not 19 sure that they had the vehicle that was identified 20 in the radio traffic. 21 to the Clarkstown police was that there were black 22 male perpetrators of whom they were looking for. 23 And, just as the plot that was reportedly determined 24 by Mr. Shakur almost worked because the police were 25 thrown off, they said, Is this really the correct The report from Nanuet Mall JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 70 1 vehicle? Because the description of the perpetrator 2 did not match the driver, and the female passenger, 3 Miss Boudin. 4 Detective 5 door on that U-Haul was like a garage door, it 6 recoiled, lifted up. 7 The U-Haul was stopped, the people in the cab were 8 apparently still in the cab. tried to lift 9 the door, the door would not go up. I think one Detective had doubts. went around, and, I believe the tried to lift the door. 10 could infer, knowing what happened momentarily 11 thereafter, that, perhaps had the perpetrators had 12 their feet on a foot stop on the inside of that door 13 and wouldn't let it go up. 14 guys in there with their feet on that door, the 15 detective could not lift it. 16 told the driver, I want that door open. 17 time, that door opened of his own volition, and out 18 jumped, essentially, a terrorist SWAT team; the same 19 group that had perpetrated at Nanuet Mall were ready 20 to fire again. 21 of the shotguns belonging to Nyack police was 22 actually restored to the patrol car because they 23 felt they had the wrong vehicle, so that particular 24 officer was at a disadvantage, he didn't have a 25 shotgun. If you got four or five But he went around, Close in They jumped out of the vehicle. Officer tried to return One JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 71 1 fire with his revolver. 2 the police cars, he emptied his revolver. 3 able to mostly reload and return fire but he was hit 4 several times. 5 didn't die at that moment at the entrance to the 6 Thruway, he died shortly thereafter. He was was tragically -- if he Officer 7 He took cover behind one of attempted to 8 return fire. He, likewise, had no match of weaponry 9 for the assault rifles that were trained on him. 10 Again, tragically, a very admirable police officer 11 like 12 hit. , Officer was fatally Is that your understanding of the facts? 13 A. That's my understanding of the facts from what I 14 understood afterwards. 15 things, but one thing about when you describe it that I 16 can remember in my own experience, I can remember once 17 they took me into custody, I think my sharpest memory of 18 that day is actually at that moment because the officers 19 who were driving the police car I was in were 20 traumatized. 21 that I wasn't the only person who was feeling completely 22 traumatized in moment; that they were clearly 23 overwhelmed and traumatized. And, I think -- I think many And I remember sort of finally realizing 24 The other thing I want to say is that, you know, 25 it took me more time than before my trial to ever really JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 72 1 think about the toll of lives that day. 2 for the last 30, more than 30 years, I think about what 3 they, you know, went through that day; that here were 4 small-town policemen who left their home that day, 5 expecting a pretty calm day, and instead found 6 themselves completely outgunned, outmaneuvered and 7 overwhelmed by people intent on killing them. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 8 9 But, I'd say If we reflect on the three who were killed, there are some common 10 denominators here that I think we should recognize. 11 All three of these honorable gentlemen - 12 , , , all 13 served in the greatest military in the world, the 14 United States military. 15 was a Navy veteran, serve admirably in that branch 16 of the service. 17 Once a Marine, always a Marine. 18 In particular, , Semper Fidelis: served in the United States Army in Korea. 19 The weapons that were trained on them that day were 20 the weapons they may have had some experience with 21 while in the military, an active duty military. 22 They did not have the benefit of protecting 23 themselves with those weapons on the day in 24 question. 25 a terrorist group that you helped to facilitate. It was a slaughter, it was a slaughter by JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 73 Uh, and I would say, I know in later years at 1 2 Bedford, I think you stated to in 3 that March 2011 interview, that you always live with 4 hope, hope that a new puppy can help a veteran from 5 the puppies program that you have assisted, and 6 commendably assisted, which is very noble to help 7 our veterans. 8 that you helped to facilitate were notable, 9 distinguished military veterans of our country. But ironically, the three who died 10 It's a great irony to me as a member of the Board of 11 Parole as I look at these facts, draw comparisons, 12 draw analogies. 13 which is very noble, Miss Clark. 14 veterans, distinguished police and a distinguished 15 police officer for Brinks, they paid the ultimate 16 price, the ultimate price. You are helping veterans today, But three great 17 A. I agree that it is deeply ironic and deeply tragic. 18 And I also think about the fact that all three of those 19 men had children, young children, who were left without 20 their fathers; that each of them had a wife that's lived 21 their life ever since without their husbands. 22 that both Sergeant 23 responsible for larger, you know, for extended families, 24 that they were the people that really kept whole 25 communities together. and Officer I know were And I am as ashamed and as JUDITH CLARK 1 DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 74 appalled at my participation today as I have ever been. 2 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 3 aggregate sentence originally, by Judge Ritter, 4 Rockland County, 75-to-life. 5 A. Correct. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 6 You received an The surviving 7 spouses, the surviving children, they indirectly 8 received a life sentence of sorrow, pain, 9 disruption, tragedy, of proportions, I believe, that we can not fathom. 10 11 A. 12 true and I would never want to minimize any of that in 13 my efforts to get out. 14 truth that I have to live with. 15 I think that's true. I absolutely know that that's That's always going to be the The only one thing I want to say....you said 16 it's an irony that I help veterans. 17 reasons I do the puppy program is for the recognition 18 that I am responsible for the death of veterans, and I 19 am responsible for the chaos we created. 20 dogs that went to veterans and also raising explosive 21 detection dogs has one of the ways I have tried to say I 22 am responsible, how do I repair. 23 comes from, rather than nobility 24 25 I think one of the Both raising And, that's where it COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: I appreciate that, and I appreciate your comments in that regard. JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 1 75 I'm going to 2 ask at this point, because we have going about two 3 hours now, would it benefit everyone if we took 4 maybe five minutes? 5 brief moment to rest her fingers, maybe stretch our 6 legs, if you have to go to the ladies' room, 7 something like that, okay? 8 five minutes, and when we see you back in the chair, 9 we will get going in about five, okay? I want to give our reporter a Maybe pause for about 10 OFFENDER: Alright. 11 COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 12 (A six-minute recess was held, after Thank you. which the following took place:) 13 14 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 15 Q. Okay, we are back. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. Alright. 18 ironic that one of the men killed was, I believe, the 19 first African-American officer of his department. 20 A. Right, correct. 21 Q. And I wonder if you have ever reflected on that, the 22 fact that so much of your movement and activity was for 23 the uplift of black Americans, and yet, by all accounts, 24 this fine, loved black man, head of his family was one 25 of the victims? I just want to say, too, that I found it JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# I have reflected on that many, many times. 76 1 A. And I'll 2 say, my father was the first person who saw me after my 3 arrest and -- I was in Rockland County, and we saw each 4 other through glass, and he screamed at me about that 5 very point. 6 supporting a black revolution, and kill a black officer 7 in the line of duty? He said, How do you claim yourself 8 I think it's both ironic and tragic and kinda 9 shows the bankruptcy of my politics and my actions at 10 the time. So, absolutely. I wanted to say one other thing, because I was 11 12 thinking during the break. 13 asking me the specifics, I realize -- I just want to, 14 you know, I really don't know who it was that put that 15 money bag in the car. 16 and specific as I can, yet I feel a little bit like a 17 bad eye witness that is trying to put together the story 18 that I don't know. 19 it's so chaotic, it makes sense to me it might have been 20 him, but I really don't know the particulars. 21 that I sort of saw -- my experience was much more cut 22 off than that, and, so, I don't want to be inaccurate, 23 either, and I just wanted to say that. 24 Q. 25 because the reporter can really only capture one person Thank you. You know, when you were I'm trying to be as accountable And, what I remember from that day, That idea One other request that I am making is, JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 77 1 at a time, wait until you hear a pause before you answer 2 so that she doesn't get caught in a situation where 3 she's trying to account for more than one person 4 talking. 5 A. Thank you, I will. 6 Q. And we will try to follow that as well. 7 until you pause significantly enough before we talk. 8 Okay? 9 A. Thank you. 10 Q. Were any of the people who were later to become 11 co-defendants and/or co-conspirators killed that day? 12 A. No. 13 Q. At the scene, at the mall or on the highway? 14 A. No. 16 Yes. The only people killed that day was Officer , Sergeant 15 Q. and . We talked about the fact that , the late , the father of your daughter 17 We will wait was 18 charged. Was he charged in connection to this crime? 19 A. 20 someone of a gunshot wound after the crime, but I think 21 he eventually was not tried for that. 22 separate charges. 23 Q. 24 connection to him that was proven in any court of law? 25 A. He was originally accused of being -- of treating Okay. He was tried for As far as you know, there was no direct No, absolutely not, no. JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 1 78 I am going to 2 ask my colleagues if they have any questions about 3 that time frame, the crime itself? 4 am about to move to the arrest and trial. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 5 Because, now I Nothing further on the crime. 6 7 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: No further. 8 COMMISSIONER STANFORD: Okay, alright. 9 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 10 Q. Now, you described the scene as chaotic, you 11 described so many of the people, yourself included, who 12 you encountered after the second crime scene as in some 13 form of shock. How would you describe your behavior at the 14 15 point of your arrest? Not necessarily with a mind to 16 what was motivating you at the time, necessarily, but 17 looking back, what can you accurately recall about your 18 behavior? 19 A. 20 was to -- one, I think personally, I was relieved, to be 21 honest. 22 resistant militant stance. 23 not forthcoming with the officers who talked to me. 24 wasn't uncooperative in that moment, there was nothing 25 to be uncooperative about. Oh, I think my behavior, as soon as I was arrested, But I think I immediately took a rather You know, I was certainly I But I was quickly adopting a JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 79 1 kind of resistance stance in the face of my arrest. 2 Q. 3 experienced by others, law enforcement in particular, as 4 having remorse or having concern for the officers, or So, is it fair to say you may not have been or the other Brinks employees? 5 6 A. I feel ashamed to say this, but I have to say it if 7 I'm going to be truthful, that, at that time, I did not 8 feel remorse. 9 that three people were killed. I did not let myself think about the fact I think there were 10 moments when I heard that someone died when I -- when it 11 caught me, you know, but I didn't let myself feel bad 12 about it. 13 the fact that people were killed, at that point. 14 Q. 15 that he made, that you shared with us about Officer I shut myself off from any real feeling about In the moment when your father made that statement , did that -- did you express anything to 16 17 him in that moment where, perhaps, you had some privacy? 18 I don't know, but did you express anything to him that 19 he might have interpreted as remorse, or shame or 20 empathy? 21 A. 22 think I had, I suppressed them for at least two years, 23 more than two years. 24 happened not by saying this disaster happened and I am 25 responsible for the three deaths and the mayhem that I think that if I had any kernels of shame, which I I responded to the disaster that JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 80 1 affected so many people; I responded by saying, I did a 2 lousy job as a getaway driver, let me be a strong, you 3 know, political prisoner. 4 went. 5 everyone's part by justifying it politically, and I 6 think I shut off any real feelings, even about my 7 daughter, immediately after that. You know, that was where I I am going to justify this complete disaster on COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 8 Commissioner Ludlow has a follow up. 9 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 10 Again, I am 11 going to reference the affidavit that I referenced 12 earlier. 13 that we are focusing on now. 14 please tell me. I think it speaks directly to the point If you disagree, I am quoting from the affidavit, 15 paragraph 42. 16 "I wish I could say honestly that I 17 18 thought about the three men who had died, and those 19 who were injured and traumatized, during the Brinks 20 robbery, but the truth is that I did not begin to 21 face that for many years, long after my trial was 22 over. 23 by framing the events abstractly, as a revolutionary 24 expropriation." 25 A. Correct. I pushed away any thought of the human toll JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 81 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 1 "I am ashamed 2 that I rationalized the deaths as casualties of war 3 in America. 4 myself from thinking about the victims on human 5 terms and imagining the loss and pain of the 6 survivors." I used such abstractions to protect You sought to represent yourself to 7 8 appear as your own attorney so that you could 9 continue a political struggle and present political 10 sentiment in court. Quoting yourself, you said, "We 11 felt like soldiers in a battle. 12 my own self-interest, but saw every action as part 13 of the politics of the situation." I had no sense of 14 A. I would stand by that statement today, having written 15 it quite awhile ago. 16 state of mind, and it accurately describes how I feel 17 about that now which is enormous shame about it. 18 is, honestly, what my state of mind was. I think it accurately describes my COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 19 But it Thank you, Miss Clark. 20 21 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 22 Q. Were you offered a plea prior to going to trial? 23 A. No, I was not. 24 Q. Did you testify at your trial? 25 A. No. JUDITH CLARK Okay. DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 82 1 Q. Did you call a co-defendant or co-conspirator 2 as a witness at your trial? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Who was that? 5 A. Uh, I believe I called Sekou Odinga. 6 Q. I think that's what my records reflect. 7 spelling of the first name, from my records anyway, is 8 S-e-k-o-u, last name O-d-i-n-g-a, also known as 9 Nathaneal Brown. Am I correct? And, the Nathaneal is spelled N-a-t-h-a-n-e-a-l 10 Burns, not Brown, Burns. And, what did he testify to 11 that you felt warranted his being called as a witness? 12 A. 13 think that we were -- I think his testimony was to try 14 to argue that this was a legitimate political action and 15 that we part of a legitimate political movement. 16 Q. 17 knowledge of the crime, it's commission, or aftermath or 18 planning? 19 A. 20 representative of the politics of the Black Liberation 21 Army, and I think we attempted to just ask political 22 questions rather than talk about the crime. 23 Q. 24 examination to get to his involvement or knowledge of 25 the crime? I can not remember any specifics of his testimony. I Did he testify from a point of view of first-person I don't believe so. I think he testified as a And, the prosecutor did not attempt any cross- JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 83 1 A. I don't remember, but I can't believe he didn't. 2 I will be honest, I don't remember that he did. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 3 But Miss Clark, who was Susan Tipograph, T-i-p-o-g-r-a-p-h? 4 5 A. She was initially my lawyer before I chose to 6 represent myself. 7 was involved with our overall political group, so she 8 functioned -- she didn't function as a real defense 9 counsel, but she was my lawyer. And she was a lawyer, but she also COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 10 In that regard, 11 in your affidavit, I'd like to refer to again, you 12 state, quote, "While technically a lawyer, she was 13 part of our political circle and saw her role 14 primarily as a political supporter. 15 meetings, we rarely discussed legal issues and 16 options, but focused on political discussions and 17 friendly banter. 18 practical legal advice, nor recommended to me that I 19 seek proper representation, and I never asked her to 20 recommend another lawyer." 21 statement? Absolutely. In our legal Ms. Tipograph never offered any Do you recall that 22 A. And that's true, I was not at all 23 interested in fighting my case legally, even though I 24 had the example of someone who did so and was therefore 25 able to get a lesser sentence. But I was not able to do JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 84 1 that at that time, I was not able to realize that that 2 was what I needed to do. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 3 If we could back 4 up to clarify the meaning of the organization May 5 19th? 6 A. Where it gets its name? COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 7 of that name. 8 9 A. Yes. Yes, the origin Could you explain that to us? May 19th was the birthday of Ho Chi Minh and 10 Malcolm X, so we chose that name because we were 11 commemorating them; we were supporting the movements 12 that they were a part of. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 13 That's my understanding of the facts as well. 14 15 A. 16 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 17 Q. Thank you. Yes, yes. Did you learn what you now know about , 18 , and and others who 19 were wounded, did you learn what you now know about them 20 primarily at the trial, in terms of their families, 21 their family composition, information about them? 22 A. 23 didn't think about them yet, at that time, during the 24 trial. 25 think about the fact that their families were probably No. I really -- I didn't follow the newspapers, I I can honestly say, unfortunately, I didn't JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 85 1 in the courtroom when I was making political speeches 2 and justifying the deaths of their loved ones. 3 afterwards, you know, in the years when I began to 4 rethink that crime, that I went back and looked at some 5 of the articles from the early period, and got to 6 realize the scope of what I had caused, the death and 7 destruction and loss that I had caused. 8 Q. 9 It's clear that the prosecutor didn't feel that It was I do want to turn my attention to the sentencing. 10 rehabilitation was possible. In fact, he said 11 specifically, "Your Honor, rehabilitation is impossible 12 in this particular case." 13 Gribetz, who was actually the district attorney of 14 Rockland County at that time? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you recall if he was the prosecutor of the case? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And Gribetz is G-r-i-b-e-t-z? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. He goes on to say....."for rehabilitation imports a 21 demonstrated ability to conform and a capacity to accept 22 society's disciplines and limits." 23 their own admissions, each of these defendants are 24 incapable of developing such qualities. 25 deterrence and the protection of society must be the That was -- was that Kenneth And he goes on, "By In this case, JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 86 1 sole and paramount goal, and for that reason I recommend 2 the sentence that be imposed must be one which will 3 ensure that these defendants are removed from the 4 streets of society for the balance of their natural 5 lives." 6 a recommendation that he learned the court later 7 followed. That was his request of the court and, in fact, A little further in, he's speaking specifically 8 9 about you, talks about your history in Illinois, talks 10 about your characterization in the presentence report, 11 talks about Mr. Gilbert and you, and says on page 13 of 12 the sentencing... and I'm not sure if he was referring 13 to comments that you made during closing, or Mr. 14 Gilbert. 15 to you because he says, "In her closing argument, told 16 this court," and then concludes that comment to say, 17 "This defendant told us that revolutionary violence is a 18 necessity." But it almost sounds like he's attributing it 19 Did you say that in your closing argument, or is 20 it likely or possible that you said in that your closing 21 argument? 22 A. Yes, I did. 23 Q. And again, he repeated, "It is obvious that this 24 defendant Clark is beyond all hope of rehabilitation." 25 Then, of course, you did have an opportunity to JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 87 1 speak and you did speak at length, and you described 2 yourself on page 22 of the sentencing minutes by saying, 3 quote, "I am a revolutionary. 4 am a anti-imperialist freedom fighter." I am not a criminal. I 5 Even at that point, how would you describe the 6 fact that you didn't see yourself as being a criminal, 7 though men were killed, a robbery occurred? 8 A. 9 feeling in order to maintain this very strong militant I was -- I shut down any real thought and any real 10 stance. And I think I did know, even by our standards, 11 what I have called then the action, what I now call the 12 crime, was a disaster and, so, I saw myself trying to -- 13 trying to, uh, reassert the politics of it, and in order 14 to do that, I had to not think about the fact of people 15 and the lives lost; I had to think in these very 16 general, abstract terms. 17 that whole period, and it really didn't change until I 18 came to Bedford. 19 about it, was thoughtlessly vehement about it. 20 Q. 21 members at the time of your sentencing? 22 being aware of their views about what should happen to 23 you? 24 A. 25 that I came into the courtroom to make my statement and And that's what I did during I maintained that and was vehement Do you recall the sentiments of any of the family Not at the time. Do you recall One of the things that happened is JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 88 1 then I left, as I had for most of the trial. And I 2 think that I protected myself from really opening up to 3 hearing the feelings and sentiments of those who were 4 actually harmed. 5 Q. 6 prepared in your case for the judge, before your 7 sentencing? 8 A. 9 participant in every form of the word. Did you review the presentence investigation that was I probably read it, but that's it. I was a non- 10 Q. 11 reported in the presentence investigation, that you may 12 have said something like, With all due respect, I don't 13 want to talk to you. 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. I think it happened in the creation of the 16 presentence investigation. 17 investigation includes -- no, it was -- to be specific, 18 you are alleged to have said to Probation Officer Audrey 19 Coleman, quote, "Nothing personal, I don't want to talk 20 to you." 21 And again, I do realize that -- and I think it's Or something like that. But the presentence And that was it. But there are victim statements in this document 22 from a representative of the 23 attorney. 24 she said, -- well, it says, quote, " 25 defendants deserved to be put up against a wall and , the wife of family who was an spoke; felt the JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 89 1 shot, they don't deserve jail." She also related she 2 was aware this was not an option available to the court. 3 She did state that she wanted the defendants to be 4 incarcerated quote, "forever, and never be eligible for 5 parole." 6 bring my husband back, but it will prevent them from 7 killing someone else." She stated, "I know it (incarceration) won't And then of course there were extensive 8 9 statements by Judge Ritter as he passed sentence. 10 part of his sentence saying -- that I think bears 11 mentioning in this record is -- begins with, quote, "I 12 harbor no illusions about any of the defendants. 13 hold society in contempt and have no respect for human 14 life. 15 enterprise was justified because it was part of a self- 16 proclaimed war against those perceived to be enemies. 17 Everything that the defendants have done and said compel 18 the conclusion they are prepared to repeat their lawless 19 conduct in furtherance of their extremist views, 20 irrespective of the cost in lives and without remorse or 21 repentance. 22 the defendants will change despite the understandable 23 hopes of their parents and families." 24 25 The They Indeed, they probably declare that their criminal There is no reason to believe that any of And, at that point, I'm pausing to say, it's clear people wrote in on your behalf specifically, JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 90 1 including , President of the 2 Graduate School and University Center of the City 3 University of New York, in a letter to the judge, the 4 Honorable David S. Ritter, dated September 20th of 1983. 5 And he goes on to say, "Each defendant 6 represents a clear and present danger to society because 7 each believes that he or she is justified in deciding 8 whether there will be more violence and death to further 9 their radical philosophy. Society is entitled to be 10 protected from these defendants and the violence they 11 represent. 12 longest minimum sentence permitted by law for each 13 murder, with each minimum to run consecutive to the 14 other minimum sentences imposed. 15 impose the maximum term of imprisonment that the law 16 allows and to make the defendants ineligible for parole 17 until they have served the longest consecutive minimum 18 term permitted by law," which we learn later on ended up 19 being a 75-year minimum. 20 Q. 21 questions about the trial, and sentencing, and arrest 22 phase? That can be accomplished by imposing the It is my intention to I am going to ask my colleagues if they have any more COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 23 24 A. Can I just make a comment? 25 Q. Sure. No. JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 91 1 A. I understand why anyone looking at my behavior in 2 that room would assume that I would never change, 3 because I really was a shutdown, mindless zealot that 4 was not allowing myself to be affected by the actual 5 events that I was a part of, not even my own situation. 6 And, I think my behavior in that courtroom almost begged 7 for the sentence that I received at the time because it 8 was disrespectful to the court, it was clearly 9 disrespectful to that community that suffered so 10 grievously, it was disrespectful to my own family and 11 certainly to my child. 12 changed is that, I was able to change and I'm grateful 13 that that happened. 14 do I wish I would have allowed myself to think of things 15 earlier? 16 Q. And the only thing that has Do I wish it had happened earlier, Yes, but I didn't. Thank you, ma'am. COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 17 Commissioner Ludlow? 18 19 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: Miss Clark, I 20 would like to refer back to your interview with that occurred, I think it was 21 22 March 25th, 2011. 23 part, that, "Mercy produces mercy; violence shuts 24 down mercy." 25 A. You said in that interview, in That's absolutely true. And in that situation, my JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 92 1 violence certainly gave no opportunity for anyone to 2 distinguish my role or think about anything other than 3 protecting themselves from me. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 4 mercy shown for the victims who were killed. 5 6 There was no A. Absolutely. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 7 And indeed, no 8 mercy extended to the spouses and the children of 9 the three families. 10 A. Correct. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 11 mercy to 12 , there was no mercy to who was sprayed with glass while he was 13 sprayed in the Brinks truck. 14 15 There was no A. Correct. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 16 We think about 17 mercy today, but there was no mercy back in October 18 21st, 1981. Would you agree? 19 A. 20 my stance and my hold to mean it as merciless. 21 it's a terrible vision to have to remember, but it is 22 who I was at that time. 23 in crisis was to not allow myself to feel anything, and 24 then certainly could not feel any mercy, absolutely. 25 I absolutely would agree with that. I could define And, It's how I responded to being COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: Okay. Thank JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 93 you. 1 2 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 3 Q. 4 the participants, that you're aware of, are still 5 living, how many are deceased, how many are still 6 incarcerated? What do you know about your other 7 co-defendants or co-conspirators? 8 A. 9 found guilty and given 75-to-life sentence. How did things work out for the others? How many of Well, the three of us were tried by the state and Kathy 10 Boudin fought her case and ultimately pled guilty to one 11 count and got 20-to-life and got out. 12 convicted in a separate trial and I actually don't know 13 what happened to him. 14 same sentence. 15 Everyone else was tried in a federal RICO case, and the 16 only people that were convicted of being -- that RICO 17 case had a number of robberies and at least one other 18 murder as part of the conspiracy. 19 people who were convicted there was Mutulu Shakur and 20 Marilyn Buck. 21 Buck received a sentence, that she got out of federal 22 prison, but subsequently died. 23 Q. 24 she and Mr. Shakur were actively involved in the events 25 of October 1981? Samuel Brown was I mean, he was sentenced to the I don't know what happened to him. And I think the only Mutulu is still in prison, and Marilyn So, do you believe as you speak with us today, that JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 94 1 A. I think so. 2 Q. And the other person that was sentenced with you was 3 Mr. Gilbert? 4 A. 5 were both sentenced with me. 6 Q. Kuwasi Balagoon, does he have a different name? 7 A. Donald Weems. 8 Q. Alright. 9 prison and the things that you did and experienced in Yes. I'm sorry, yes, Mr. Gilbert and Kuwasi Balagoon Now I would like to turn my attention to 10 all of these years. And as we have said at the 11 beginning, you've now served over 35 years? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. Describe your early years. 14 A. When I got to Bedford, I think I was a very split 15 person, so more than one thing was going on for me. 16 the one hand, I was getting used to figuring out how to 17 maintain a life in here. 18 I had to fight my way -- I actually went to court to get 19 out of solitary confinement. 20 population I got a job. I was seeing my daughter and my 21 family quite regularly. My daughter was living with my 22 friends, my parents were getting very actively involved 23 in her life. 24 and my friends were urging me to tell my parents to be 25 less involved. On I spent the first few months, And, once I was in regular They were urging me to let them take her, So I was once again in a conflict over JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 95 1 my child. And I was being criticized by my political 2 friends for, once again, being individualist for 3 questioning what should happen to my child and giving my 4 parents too much power. 5 keep my stance, and it was starting to fray, I guess is 6 what I would say. 7 was able to kind of work, get along with staff. 8 below the surface, I was still in turmoil. 9 into my sentence --- one second. So I was desperately trying to And certainly, day-to-day in here, I But Two years 10 Q. 11 turmoil; is that what you said? 12 A. 13 supporting things, but also very, very worried about my 14 daughter. Yes. Below the surface you were still in I was writing political tracts, still Two years into my sentence several things 15 16 happened. One was that, my parents took me to court for 17 custody of my child which meant taking her away from my 18 friends. 19 reality that I had lost my child and I had abandon my 20 child. 21 letters to fugitives that was found in their safe house, 22 and those letters were the basis of my spending two 23 years in SHU for my conspiracy to escape. 24 beginning to talk to a sociologist who was interested in 25 trying to understand why I did what I did, and was for And that kind of burst a certain bubble of the I also got a disciplinary ticket for writing And I was JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 96 1 the first time in conversations that were not abstract 2 slogans, but were actually reflective. 3 of all those things, including the time in SHU and 4 having to reflect, is the time I began to realize -- I 5 think the first thing I realized was that I had abandon 6 my daughter; I think my first experience of remorse was 7 about that. 8 to begin to think about the three men who were killed. 9 That's the period when I went back and started to read The combination But once I began to think about that, I had 10 some of the original articles and realized the scope of 11 devastation, what had happened to people, and the 12 losses, and the trauma and the ongoing losses. 13 began to -- I guess what I began to do is realize I had 14 no way of understanding what I did as an individual, 15 that, I had always thought of myself as we: 16 make a revolution, we have to do this. 17 to find myself as an individual if I was going to take 18 responsibility for what I had done and what I needed to 19 do then. 20 self-reflective. 21 political person. 22 to the people who were -- that I had real friendships 23 with rather than just political alliances with, some of 24 whom I had political alliances with, but they were also 25 friends. So I We have to And, that, I had So, I went into a period that was much more I stopped trying to be a public I winnowed down who was visiting me I began to see my father on a regular basis. JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 97 1 He came with my daughter every week until she started 2 school, and he and I began talking. 3 with my conversations with a woman named 4 who was the sociologist. 5 and our conversation was the first time I was willing to 6 cry, be ashamed, think about what I had done. And I continued , And, you know, her questions I think the other thing that was happening in 7 8 that period was that I was -- in SHU you spend a lot of 9 time with officers, that's who you are in contact with. 10 And I spent a lot of time with officers in talking to 11 them, and realized that they were just like the officers 12 who were killed that day. 13 my reflecting and realizing that I had to begin to 14 become a person and responsible for myself, and pull 15 back from my political identity. 16 Q. 17 time you were in Special Housing, what years that 18 encompassed? 19 A. Yes, from 1985 to 1987. 20 Q. I do have some of the documentation from your early 21 years. 22 "Program and Security Assessment Summary" of what was 23 then State of New York Department of Correctional 24 Services. 25 covering February '85 to August 6, '85, it says, "Her So that was the beginning of Do you remember the year or the specific period of This particular documentation is entitled In terms of custodial adjustment in a period JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 98 1 custodial adjustment for this period is outstanding. 2 She continues to relate well to both staff and peers." 3 And then in terms of program involvement, it says, "Her 4 program involvement is acceptable." 5 go ahead. 6 A. No, you can finish. 7 Q. Then we've got the same document for a period of 8 August '84 to February 4, '85, which would have been the 9 period before the last. Then we have got -- And it says -- for custodial 10 adjustment, "Her adjustment is acceptable." So, you 11 improved from this period to the next. 12 prior period. 13 exception of the above charge," and it was some, I don't 14 know, 15 five days for following staff direction charge. 15 "She relates well to staff and peers." 16 not in programs yet, for program involvement assessment. 17 And then the period before that, February '84 - 18 August '84, "Judith's custodial adjustment has improved. 19 She has not received any infractions for the past six 20 months. 21 it's marked as outstanding for custodial adjustment and 22 outstanding for program involvement. 23 attendance and participation are outstanding. 24 program evaluation states that her work is exemplary." 25 So, we are going backwards in time. This was the "Her adjustment is acceptable, with the And you weren't She relates well to both staff and peers." But "Judith's program Her The one before that JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 99 1 is the last one of this kind that I have -- actually, 2 I've got some for a later period, but let me focus on 3 this one. 4 "Custody adjustment acceptable. 5 acceptable." 6 between May '87 and February '89. 7 that have been during the same period as Special 8 Housing, or just after? 9 A. No, after. 10 Q. Just after, okay. 11 adjustment is noted as acceptable and your program 12 involvement is noted as acceptable. 13 were a member of NOW, NAACP, and the Parenting -- I 14 think that's what it is, it's very faint. 15 church regularly." 16 notation is about, something she was at the federal 17 correctional institution at -- I can't read what it 18 says. 19 appearance or something between '87 and '88, perhaps? 20 A. 21 the fall of '87. 22 federal custody and I was at Tucson FCI for a year. 23 And, when my parents and lawyers questioned what 24 happened, they were told that it was nothing I had done 25 - as I had previously - but they were doing security This is October 6th, '83 to March 12th, '84. Program involvement And then there's one for the period So, I'm sorry, would Or near after. And your custodial It says that you "She attends I'm not sure what this other Was there some -- did you have an outside court Oh, actually what happened was, I got out of SHU in In December '87 I was transferred to JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 100 1 work that meant they wanted me out of the facility for 2 the year. 3 Bedford. 4 Q. 5 your records from those early years includes a letter 6 that you received -- actually, two letters, that you 7 received early April of 1990 from Alright. Now, some of the other documentation in , , who was a member of the Senate at the time, 8 9 And a year later I was brought back to and in fact Chairman of Crime and Corrections Senate 10 Committee. 11 letter about two of your pieces of artwork. 12 entitled Self-Portrait, and then there was another one 13 as well. 14 them to you to let you know your artwork was featured in 15 an art show, Correction on Canvas, 24 Art Show and Sale, 16 held in the Legislative Office Building in Albany, 17 York, letting you know you were awarded honorable 18 mention in mixed media category. 19 job well done," he says in both letters. 20 And it was sort of an honorable mention One was But he signed off on these letters and sent New "Congratulations on a So, hopefully that gives us a little bit of 21 flavor for what your life was like in those first few 22 years when you were received in State custody. 23 records reflect October 6 of '83, at least through 1990 24 or so. 25 A. Yes. I think I was able to adjust well. My I think JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 101 1 that, for me, when I think of that period, what's 2 significant is when I began to reckon with my crime. 3 Before then I was able to cooperate with staff, 4 participate in programs. 5 was waking up to the fact that I had participated in the 6 murder of three innocent people, and a crime that caused 7 so much loss and so much chaos. 8 waking up to the fact that I had abandon my daughter, 9 and wanting to rebuild a relationship to my parents so The real shift that happened And that -- and also 10 we could cooperate with each other with my daughter and 11 for her needs; and also, they had been there telling me 12 the truth and I had to reckon with it. 13 those are the things I think about most about that 14 period. 15 Q. 16 your mind? Did you say '92, or are we talking -- 17 A. In terms of beginning to think about the 18 crime, I would say 1985 and '6, when I began to do the 19 interviews with 20 Q. 21 A. 22 Q. 23 attorney, Mr. Zeidman, shared the Fortune News piece 24 from '94 and the Journal News piece from 2002. 25 Fortune News? Okay. -- no. So, in a way, Again, what year would you say stands out in . And how do you spell her name? Do you recall? . Okay. Now, we have in your advocacy materials, your What was I didn't bother to try to Goggle and see JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 102 1 what it was. I'm not really familiar with what it was 2 at the time. 3 A. 4 called The Fortune Society which does work on behalf of 5 prisoners and helps people in their re-entry work. 6 put out a newsletter called Fortune News. 7 a issue that was devoted to women in prison and they 8 asked us to write things, and I wrote a poem which they 9 printed. Fortune News was a newsletter by an organization It And they had In the editorial, the editor talks about women 10 in prison and made a distinction that said, Political 11 prisoners, you know, unlike others who are ashamed of 12 what brings them to prison, political prisoners are 13 proud of what they did. 14 had been -- I had purposely not been involved in any 15 media, or publicity or anything. 16 begin to be public about not being a political prisoner, 17 and, my remorse for the crime. 18 I wrote a letter that was public and announced. 19 Q. 20 didn't make the connection. 21 publish Fortune News? 22 A. I haven't seen it in a very long time. 23 Q. Okay. 24 submissions from Mr. Zeidman for our consideration, 25 which is several volumes. Okay. And I realized that my changes But that I had to That was the first time And I am familiar with Fortune Society but I I wonder, do they still I highlighted a lot of what you said in the It's called the "Parole JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 103 1 Advocacy Packet." There's, like, six bound volumes, the 2 first being the lead document with its own exhibits. 3 And then is a breakdown of other exhibits, all the way 1 4 through 17. 5 bit of it. 6 Specifically, you say in 1994, you say, "It took me many 7 years to open myself up to genuine feelings of loss and 8 remorse." 9 by realizing that your daughter needed something more So, I have the piece, highlighted quite a I would like to quote some of it. And then you talk about the starting point, 10 from you than unspoken paralyzing guilt. You also say 11 in another place, "I'm not at all proud of the actions 12 for which I am in prison. 13 prison for over 12 years, witnessing the toll of 14 violence, and broken lives and families, and as a mother 15 whose child had to grow up without me, I can not feel 16 pride in actions which left three men dead, others 17 injured, three grieving widows and many fatherless 18 children. 19 remorse." As a woman who has lived in I feel only enormous regret, sorrow and 20 And then you say, at the end, "While I know that 21 there is no way that I can take back the consequences of 22 my past actions or recover the lives that were lost and 23 maimed, I feel responsibility and desire to extend 24 myself to victims and survivors. 25 that I now break with the long public silence and move It is for this reason JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 104 1 beyond what has been an essentially private process of 2 change to express my remorse publically here and 3 elsewhere. Respectfully, Judith Clark." Was this your first statement of a public 4 5 nature? 6 A. 7 them end of 1993. 8 published. 9 outside, knew that I felt remorseful, that I had really Yes. This was in -- in 1994. I probably sent it to When I say public, I mean publicly I think everyone who knew me in here and 10 changed my attitudes towards almost everything, and 11 certainly violence. 12 it in writing and published it somewhere outside. 13 Q. 14 what Fortune News was, or who in the public domain would 15 be likely to get it? 16 perhaps, or be donors or something? 17 A. 18 of mine, if anyone called me a political prisoner, even 19 if I got a letter -- I still get letters that say that, 20 and I always respond I am not a political prisoner. 21 That implies a justification of my crime; I do not 22 justify crime, I do not justify violence. 23 sort of the first time I did it, and I have tried do it 24 pretty consistently since. 25 Q. But this was the first time I put You probably wouldn't know what the circulation of Yes. I imagine people had to subscribe, I think it is small. But it became a practice And that was Now, the next document I have is this piece in the JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 105 1 Journal News. Now, this was a publicly circulated 2 newspaper, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And do you know what region the Journal News is 5 published in? 6 A. 7 people in Rockland. 8 public for many years, I wanted to directly apologize to 9 the community that I had harmed. I sent it to the Journal News because it's read by And I realized, while I have been And I did it in the 10 wake of the killing of 11 Trade Center bombing. 12 Q. 13 caption is correct -- it's not in the type of the 14 article, but it's typed on top: 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. There's a piece of this I want to ask you about. 17 Pardon me while I just look for it, because it was the 18 piece where -- okay, I think this is it. 19 having to claim kindredness with those who perpetrated 20 the carnage of September 11, 2011, but my shame and 21 remorse do not diminish my responsibility to examine the 22 long knotted thread that connects my actions with the 23 recent attacks." 24 25 Alright. in the World Now, the published date of this, if the March 31st of 2002. "I dread Now, what did you mean by the connection statement? JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 106 1 A. I meant that, I had to realize that, while the scope 2 of what I did was certainly not the scope of what 3 happened in the World Trade Center bombing, that my 4 zealotry and that group dynamic of only being internally 5 loyal to ourselves and not thinking about other people 6 as human being on their own terms, that that having been 7 propelled by that state of mind to do with an action 8 that essentially terrorized people, I had to try to 9 understand the motivation, my motivation, and realize it 10 was no better than their's; that that way of operating 11 was devastating. 12 acknowledge what it was, you know, that what that state 13 of mind where you only think about your cause and people 14 are not important unless they are part of your cause, 15 can lead to actions that create enormous loss. 16 that's what I meant by the kindredness. 17 connected to their cause, but that the same madness that 18 I think drove them, happened to me. 19 responsible for that. 20 Q. 21 counsel - for lack of a better word - anyone else who 22 came in your presence, either by wanting to be pen pals 23 with you, or visitors, or even other women who came to 24 spend time at Bedford, who might have at one time 25 conceived of themselves or been thought of, quote, And I owed it to society to So Not that I felt And I to be Have you, in all these years, had an opportunity to JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 107 1 unquote, "political prisoners"? Have you had an 2 opportunity to counsel someone who may have felt like 3 you felt at the time of your participation? 4 A. 5 work in here. 6 political prisoner -- I was someone who was motivated by 7 the need to belong, by the need to show that I was 8 tough, to participate in violence. 9 women in here whose circumstances are very different, I do that probably almost every day of my life in my Because once I took off that armor of And I work with 10 but who also often times have been caught up in violence 11 in that kind of way of not -- of trying to compensate 12 for their sense of weakness by pardoning themselves and 13 propelling themselves into violence. 14 the woman in the nursery and I talk to them, and it goes 15 on in terms of their day-to-day arguments with each 16 other. 17 remember the person that you just were having that 18 argument with feels as strongly about what they think as 19 you do. 20 one of the things I've learned and one of the things I 21 feel so strongly is that everyone has as much of a sense 22 of themselves and that they are right as I do, in any 23 kind of argument. 24 lots of letters. 25 me about the Black Panthers; Oh, you were really down. And I work with So sometimes it's just about you have to I think when you take away the politics of it, I think I also do try to -- I get And I people ask me all the time, Tell JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 108 1 And I always try to say, Actually, my crime was a 2 terrible crime, be grateful you are here for far less 3 than the loss that I caused; and there was nothing 4 courageous about it; and there were people involved in a 5 movement and all we did was hurt those people as much as 6 any other action could have hurt them. So, I think goes 7 on kind of as part of my life in here. I have had many 8 conversations with officers about it as well, you know, 9 who I feel like I have to be responsible to them about 10 what I came to feel. And I also get letters from young 11 people who call themselves anarchists. 12 correspondent, but I try to write back and say, You can 13 be passionate about what you feel, but please remember 14 everyone has a right to life, and to their point of 15 view, and liberty, and don't trample on other people for 16 what they believe. I am a terrible You know, it's changed the course of who I am 17 18 close to and my own identity, which I am grateful for. 19 Q. 20 that we have received in preparation of this interview, 21 a book called Spirit on the Inside, Reflections on Doing 22 Time with Judith Clark, a photo essay by Sarah Bennett. 23 And I just want to share one of the brief comments with 24 a photograph. 25 have served time with you. I have been presented, as part of the many documents They all have comments from ladies who This one is by a woman named JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 109 1 Donna, who served almost 27 years and was released in 2 2012. 3 confinement, and Judy was in the cell next door. 4 that day on she was my mentor, my mother, my big sister. 5 Judy tells you the truth about yourself that you don't 6 want to know or see. 7 doing that, but I am forever grateful to Judy for being 8 one of the catalyst who allowed me to work on 'me' and 9 who instigated my changing into the person I am today. She said, "I started out in SHU, solitary From At first, she pissed me off for 10 I love her for her humanity, she truly cares." 11 A. 12 can live with myself in the face of the crime, you know. 13 It's the only way to take what I did and redeem myself. 14 And it has allowed me to live a life in here that I can 15 have pride in, in the face of feeling really, really 16 terrible about both my participation in the murders and 17 in the crime, and also in my stance in court. 18 Q. 19 continue to do that if you were granted release to 20 community supervision? 21 A. 22 the closest with which is Hour Children which runs the 23 nursery program I work in, and Puppies Behind Bars, were 24 looking forward to my continuing to work with them 25 outside. Thank you. I think that that work is the only way I What do you anticipate will be your opportunities to Well, one thing is, both of two organizations I work A lot of women I work with in here in the JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 110 1 nursery go on to live at Hour Children. And I work with 2 them and I hope to continue to be that person that says 3 things that maybe they don't want to hear, and maybe I 4 don't want to hear, but is necessary. 5 want to continue to help PBB raise their dogs. 6 are two of the things. 7 new. 8 working with an organization called Brightpoint Health, 9 and they provide primary care to underserved And I absolutely So those But I also hope to do something I mean, I have a job offer that I'm excited by, 10 communities. And it allows me to broaden also the 11 places where I can have an impact, hopefully. 12 Q. 13 other section to deal with your future plans and 14 prospects. We will talk about more about that. I've got a whole I think you did speak to what led to your change 15 16 of heart. Did you appeal your conviction? 17 A. 18 started to have both feel remorse about my crime, I also 19 felt remorse for having thrown away any opportunity of 20 getting a lesser sentence. 21 someone who was facing a lesser sentence, whose child 22 was the same the age of mine. 23 fact that 24 being with her ever. 25 ashamed of the crime, I couldn't figure out how I could I did, quite awhile afterwards. I think when I first I was doing time with And I had to face the -- that I threw away the chance of But I also felt so guilty and JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 111 1 challenge the case if I was feeling, you know, if what I 2 did was wrong. 3 out. 4 court. 5 said, Listen, you were a lunatic, but the court erred in 6 not having someone - above your objections - to defend 7 you. 8 And, so, he took my case back to court and I actually 9 won my federal habe, and then that was reversed by the And it took me a long time to sort that Certainly my parents urged me to try to go back to And eventually I was in touch with a lawyer who He said, I want to take your case back to court. 10 next higher level. But in a way, I think of that as 11 also part of my reparative efforts, because I was coming 12 back into court with respect for the court. 13 I've been in court around a number of things, with 14 respect to the court. 15 Q. 16 appellate efforts as a further sign of disregard or lack 17 of remorse. 18 interpret your appeal efforts? 19 A. 20 appeal was the affidavit that you've been reading from, 21 and which was to be very clear that I was -- I 22 responsible for the crime and I was responsible for not 23 participating, and that that was the basis upon which I 24 was going back into court, that, I did believe the court 25 erred in not appointing me standby counsel. You know, There are some who might consider your delayed Is that an accurate way for anyone to What I was trying to do -- what I tried do in my And I also JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 112 1 felt that, at that point, a court would be looking at a 2 very different person than they were looking at at the 3 time. 4 out of a time of great remorse and trying to be honest 5 and say, I hope in being able to be clear about my 6 remorse for the crime, I can -- I can address the stance 7 that I took of disrespect at the time of my trial. 8 no, I don't think it came out of lack of remorse. 9 think it came out of believing you should participate in So, to me, it was not lack of remorse; it came So I 10 the system, and believing I owed it to my daughter to 11 see if I could repair the damage I caused legally to 12 myself. 13 Q. 14 overturned? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. How did your pursuit for clemency begin? 17 A. When I won my habe, you know, there was a year when 18 my conviction was overturned and we were waiting, you 19 know, to see what the next court did. 20 was a time when I could begin to imagine that, having 21 redeemed myself, I could ask the system to recognize 22 that and redeem me in some way. 23 allowed me to imagine that there was -- that I could say 24 that the judge had every right to believe that I would 25 never change at the time. Did your appeals end when the federal decision was And I think it So I think that it But, it turned out that I JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 113 1 did. And, if part of his sentence was based on saying I 2 was who I was and there's no reason to think that I was 3 ever going to change, that, I wanted it to be known that 4 I had changed and was asking to have a second look 5 25 years later, or by then 30 years later. 6 decided to go for clemency. 7 a fool's errant, to be honest. 8 it's been part of a journey, I guess, to change what I 9 could change and acknowledge what I could. So, I And at first it seemed like But I felt like for me, 10 Q. How many separate applications did you make for 11 clemency? 12 A. 13 Patterson was the governor, in his last year, working 14 with a lawyer, Sara Bennett. 15 the end of his term and then decided against it. 16 either the first or second year of Governor Cuomo's 17 office, I resubmitted an application. 18 office worked, once the application was in, you -- he 19 may not have given it to anyone, but he didn't deny it. 20 So that's been the same application, and all I've done 21 since is sort of build, is add to it in terms of letters 22 and other material. 23 Q. 24 author of the book that I read from, Spirit on the 25 Inside? I put in the first application when Governor And he considered it to Now, you mentioned Sara Bennett. So, And, the way his She was the same JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 114 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And it says on the back, "Sara Bennett is the pro 3 bono attorney for Judith Clark." 4 A. Right. 5 Q. Now, she represented you through the first clemency 6 application. 7 the team representing you for the second application 8 that you continued to build on? 9 A. Did she cease to represent or be part of No, she remained my attorney until about a 10 year-and-a-half ago. 11 herself and this was the one case -- she was a single 12 practitioner and she needed to continue -- she has 13 continued to advocate for me, but she really wanted 14 someone else to take over. 15 Professor Zeidman took on the case. 16 Q. 17 a lot of work into your application, and now your Parole 18 Advocacy Packet, some of which is the same material, but 19 some is new and updated. 20 And she had stopped being a lawyer So, she was very happy when And clearly, from the volumes that we have, he's put And, so, how would you describe your direct 21 involvement in your clemency work, the clemency effort? 22 A. 23 enormous number of people, people who were supportive of 24 me, would talk to other people. 25 takes a direct contact. The primary thing it did for me is that I met an And, it often times You know, otherwise, I am like JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 115 1 one more case. And, so, a lot of people who I did not 2 know came to visit me, and I got to speak about my crime 3 and my remorse, and answer questions for the next five 4 years. 5 ultimately getting clemency, I think it allowed me to 6 live the process of taking responsibility for my crime, 7 because that's the only basis that I could ask for 8 clemency. 9 things like that, but I spoke to a lot of people in And I think that was good for me. Aside from I did some, you know, writing to people and 10 person, answered questions, encouraged people to work. 11 Q. 12 become one of your supporters, was one of the witnesses 13 in your trial who was a woman whose car was commandeered 14 during the flight -- 15 A. -- yes. 16 Q. ....from the second scene, the second crime scene 17 shall I say? 18 A. 19 Q. 20 your advocacy binder. 21 In fact, one of your supporters, or person who would Yes, yes. . . And her information is documented within COMMISSIONER STANFORD: I am going to 22 pause for a moment and ask my colleagues if they 23 have any further questions about this period of 24 time, your prison years, leading up to today, 25 appeals and clemency? JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 116 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 1 Nothing further at this time, on this portion. 2 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 3 No further questions, thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 5 6 to pause for just a moment. 7 are. We are going Just stay where you We will just pause for a moment. (A five-minute recess was held, after 8 which the following took place:) 9 10 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 11 Q. We are back on the record. I had a brief conference with my colleagues. 12 We 13 still have quite a ways to go. 14 fairness and making sure that we all get back to our 15 destinations safely, and for the benefit of the record 16 which is considerable, we are going to stop now and pick 17 it up in the morning. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. Is that alright with you, ma'am? 20 A. Okay. 21 And, in the interest of Okay? COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 22 to reconvene at 8:30 tomorrow. 23 (Offender was excused.) 24 25 We are going (The parole hearing was adjourned and reconvened Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 8:42 a.m.) JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 117 1 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 2 Q. Good morning. 3 A. Good morning. 4 Q. We are going to try to pick up where we left off, and 5 I want to move into more recent times. 6 A. 7 said, the last point you made about Can I say one thing about the last thing that you COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 8 ? One moment, please. 9 10 OFFENDER: Yes. 11 (Whereupon, the videocamera was re-adjusted, and the following took place:) 12 13 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 14 Q. 15 the volume of input that's come in on this case over the 16 years. 17 variety of sources, in support and opposition, with the 18 clemency activity. 19 well; would you agree? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And so, we have of course your clemency records from 22 down through the years. 23 of clemency records, we have all the clemency records in 24 our possession presently. 25 the petition, and the supporting documents from the I want to discuss more recent times, and certainly It seems to me that, it began in earnest from a Does that sound reasonable to you as In fact, we have numerous boxes So, we have the application - JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 118 1 original petition to Governor Patterson. 2 have the follow-up petition and application that was -- 3 would the 2009 have been the first, or the 2010 have 4 been the first? 5 A. 6 I don't remember when Governor Cuomo came into office. 7 It was the year before he came into office that I put in 8 my first application, when Governor Patterson was.... 9 Q. I can't remember dates. Okay. And then we 2009 probably was the first. Because, we have records from 2009, 2010 and 10 then 2012. 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. So I'm thinking 2012 was when the petition was 13 directed to our now present governor. 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. And, of course those petitions include reams of 16 documents to form the basis for the petition, and other 17 media as well, and a lot of it is bound and some of it's 18 the form, as I say, media, DVDs. 19 as part of the 2012 materials. 20 boxes of materials that have been submitted over the 21 years, beginning in 2009, and, in fact, successive 22 years, at least beginning in 2013, because we've got 23 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, to the present. 24 course, the 2017 parole advocacy materials. 25 There's even a PBS DVD So, we have all the And then, of So I am going to try to go through a lot of that JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 119 1 and, as you may or may not know, the factors that the 2 law authorizes us to consider speak primarily to 3 official position taken, and of course we do have that 4 information as well and we will talk about that. 5 then, as well as any victim impact. 6 discussed have some victim impact known at the time of 7 sentencing, through the presentence investigation when 8 we were speaking yesterday. And And we briefly I want to just take a step back for a moment and 9 10 try to be clear in our record, what the status is of 11 others who were involved with you at the time. 12 looking at our Parole Board report that was submitted 13 for this interview and prepared by the Bedford Hills 14 staff. 15 that David Gilbert is still incarcerated, or at least 16 was still incarcerated at the time of the preparation of 17 this report which was signed off on the end of March. 18 Donald Weems, our records reflect, is now deceased. 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Katherine Boudin was paroled in 2003, according to 21 this record. 22 Mr. Gilbert, in New York State Correctional Facility. 23 Nathanel Burns, also known as Odinga Sekou, O-d-i-n-g-a, 24 or Sekou Odinga, our records reflect was paroled in 25 2014. Now, I'm It lists known co-defendants, and it tells us Samuel Brown is still incarcerated, as is And then, - who we really haven't JUDITH CLARK 1 DIN#83G0313 NYSID# spoken about - also known as 120 , , our records reflect, is also deceased. 2 What 3 can you tell us about him? His name didn't come up at 4 all yesterday, and I thought I read at some point, 5 charges were dismissed against him. Do you know where 6 he was in the events, what vehicle? What can you tell 7 us? 8 A. 9 case, and then those charges were dismissed and he ended I think he was originally charged in the state's 10 up being tried and convicted on completely separate 11 charges, you know, that were not related to this crime. 12 So I think he was in prison at the time when he died, 13 but not for this crime, it was for another crime. 14 Q. Was he prosecuted in state court? 15 A. I think he was prosecuted in state court, but for an 16 older case, is my memory. 17 when we were indicted, he was on the first indictment; 18 and then over the first year there was a change in that 19 indictment and he was no longer on the state indictment. 20 Q. Was he a witness at your trial? 21 A. No, no. 22 no longer had anything to do with the case. 23 Q. 24 his name did not come up in our conversation 25 yesterday.... you weren't able to provide any real So, in the very beginning I think once they took him off the case, he And, based on what you told us yesterday, as I said JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 121 1 details who might have been where in other vehicles or 2 on other scenes. 3 words, are you unable to say, of your own knowledge, 4 whether or not he was even there? 5 A. 6 think he was associated with the Black Liberation Army 7 in their minds, and when he was arrested - because it 8 was right after our crime, they assumed it. 9 when they did their investigation, they charged him with Right. Is it similar with him? In other I think they decided he wasn't there. I And then 10 other crimes, not with this crime. 11 Q. 12 not there? 13 A. 14 from what I know afterwards. 15 there. 16 Q. 17 again, of your own knowledge, who was there whose name 18 has not been mentioned? 19 A. 20 was there. 21 Q. 22 parties, visitors, people you speak to on the phone, 23 people who write you letters, any contact with any of 24 the known co-defendants? 25 A. And are you able to say, as far as you know, he was I don't think he was there, but I'm only saying that Alright. Yes, I don't think he was Is there anyone else, that you know of, No, no, I think I mentioned every name that I knew Have you had any contact, perhaps through third I've had a little contact with Kathy Boudin. We did JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 122 1 22 years together here. When she got out, she was on 2 parole so we weren't in touch at all. 3 off parole for a long time. 4 doing work that meant she did not want to be in touch 5 with anyone in prison, but a few years ago she got 6 cancer, and at that time I reached out to her just with 7 cards. 8 only person I have been in contact with. 9 Q. But she's been When she got out she was So, we are on that level of contact. That's the Now, I suppose you know she's teaching and she's at 10 Columbia, correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you hope to do any work with her in the community, 13 should you be released? 14 A. 15 her path, I guess. 16 about each other, our children grew up together, but I 17 don't see myself joining her in the work she does at 18 Columbia. 19 sure we will see each other, if that's possible, at 20 times. 21 stipulations. 22 Q. 23 your advocacy packet which, as I said earlier, a lot of 24 it tracks and repeats some of the documentation and 25 positions stated in your clemency documents. I think that -- I don't think I will exactly follow Our paths will cross and we care I think that's what I would say. But I am All of that has to be seen in terms of my parole Okay. Now I want to address some of the materials in JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 123 1 A. Right. 2 Q. I want to make sure I reference the most recent 3 materials contained within your advocacy packet that was 4 refreshed by professor and attorney Zeidman this year. 5 I will start with his letter, and -- he's written it on 6 the City of University New York CUNY School of Law 7 letterhead, and addresses the title as "Parole Advocacy 8 Letter Submitted on Behalf of Judith Clark," and he 9 says, in part, before he lays out the procedural 10 posture, reasonable probability release in terms of 11 deprecating the seriousness, he says in the 12 introduction, in part, quote, "As is detailed in the 13 numerous letters submitted on Ms. Clark's behalf, upon 14 meeting her it becomes apparent that her acceptance of 15 responsibility, her contrition and her desire to repair 16 are genuine." 17 And he really frames this in terms of a legal 18 argument in some ways, in addition to character 19 references, looking at the standard that governs us. 20 And, when he speaks about the reasonable probability, 21 it's specific to the standard that requires a finding of 22 reasonable probability that, if such inmate is released, 23 they will live and remain at liberty without violating 24 the law, and that release is not incompatible with the 25 welfare of society. And then, attempting to make a case JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 124 1 that your release would not be incompatible with the 2 welfare of society. 3 so deprecate the seriousness of, and he puts in 4 parentheses, bracket [her crime] as to undermine respect 5 for the law; and, that standard calls upon us to 6 consider in whose mind are we considering that this idea 7 of deprecating the seriousness of the crime as to 8 undermine respect for the law; whose respect for the law 9 would be undermined by a release decision? 10 And then he addresses the will not He does say - and this is noteworthy - and 11 that's how he starts the sentence. "It is noteworthy 12 that Ms. Clark was convicted of felony murder. 13 not alleged to have had the intent to take any lives. 14 Many of the others involved in the crime, whether 15 alleged to have actually fired weapons or to have played 16 secondary roles, received substantially shorter 17 sentences and have been out of prison for many years." 18 He follows with, "Most germane is the sentence meted out 19 to Ms. Clark's co-defendant, Kathy Boudin. 20 prosecution alleged that Ms. Boudin caused the police 21 officers on the scene to put down their weapons moments 22 before the perpetrators jumped out of a U-Haul van, and 23 began firing and ultimately killing two police officers. 24 The trial judge, Honorable David Ritter concluded that," 25 and this is in the sentencing minutes, Ms. Boudin's She was The JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 125 1 minutes, "....in my judgment, there is evidence of 2 honest contrition, and remorse and abhorrence of 3 violence as a technique to further goals, however noble 4 those goals may be. 5 upon a period of time that I honestly believe was right, 6 that represented a just result. 7 recognizing the likelihood that the parole authorities 8 would release Ms. Boudin at the expiration of that 9 period.' Judge Ritter stated, 'I settled I did that fully "In Judge Ritter's view," which is Mr. 10 Zeidman's words, "Ms. Boudin's 'contrition and remorse' 11 was such that 20 years in prison was a just result." 12 This is, of course, information taken from the 13 sentencing minutes of Ms. Boudin. 14 Zeidman says, "....an unrepentant and combative Judith 15 Clark led Judge Ritter to conclude that...." and I had 16 this is some of our record yesterday, "I harbor no 17 illusions about any of the defendants," and later, 18 "There is no reason to believe that any of the 19 defendants will change, despite the understandable hopes 20 of their parents and families." 21 Zeidman says, "As a result, he sentenced Ms. Clark to 22 25-to-life, the maximum permissible sentence." 23 on to say, "Judy Clark in 2017 bears little resemblance 24 to Judy Clark of 1981. 25 that she was any kind of 'political prisoner,' and "In contrast," Mr. And then again, Mr. He goes She long ago denounced the idea JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 126 1 acknowledged her role, accepted responsibility and 2 expressed profound contrition for the deaths of , 3 and . In certain 4 situations, release to parole can certainly deprecate 5 the seriousness of the offender's crime. 6 the case if the individual shows no awareness of the 7 harm caused and lacks any meaningful remorse." 8 He highlights your Fortune News letter 9 submission, and also the public apology in the Journal 10 That is surely News piece. He's leading into a sort of highlight in his 11 12 letter of the support you garnered down through the 13 years, and he begins with a statement, "Perhaps no one 14 is better situated to comment on Ms. Clark's remorse 15 than 16 Hills Correctional Facility." 17 , the former superintendent at Bedford And he pulls from submission, which is also one of the exhibits in 18 your packet, where writes, "She has come to 19 terms with the harm she did. 20 possible to atone for that crime. 21 responsibility for her role in the crime, understands 22 how terrible it was, the agony and suffering it caused. 23 No one needs to fear Judy Clark. 24 to offer society and I believe she will do this with 25 humility and wisdom, never forgetting the nature of her She has done everything She takes full Instead, she has much JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 127 1 crime and the damage she caused, always acting in a way 2 that will compensate, help, build and sustain wherever 3 and whenever she can." Do you know approximately how many years you 4 5 were serving while 6 A. 7 I think she retired in 2004. 8 hands-on superintendent, so she really knew us. 9 was not immediate that she felt that about me. Twenty years. was superintendent? She became superintendent in 1984 and And she was a very And it She had 10 to deal with my security issues in the beginning; she 11 took me out of programs at times when she felt I had 12 gone beyond my boundaries. 13 to a change that wasn't just what I said, but a kind of 14 deeper wisdom, I guess, about the fact that the world 15 does not revolve around me and that my view is one of 16 many. 17 with her and her staff in a cooperative way to build 18 programs. 19 authority of the, you know, big institution in the 20 larger sense. 21 time Corrections person who I think saw that change. 22 And I have always been grateful to her for giving me and 23 others an opportunity to do cooperative work in here, 24 and for her support and feedback when I needed it. 25 Q. And I think she was witness And ultimately, I think we -- I was able to work And she experienced my respect for the And I think she's a very insightful long- Now, before we go further afield and a way from the JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 128 1 activities that you were involved in that we really 2 didn't spend much time yesterday discussing, let's go 3 through some of the significant programs that you 4 participated in because they were recommended, and then 5 transition to some that you may have helped to found 6 within Bedford, to the present. 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. So, where would you like to start? 9 to mandated programs first? 10 A. Sure. Do you want to go We can start with that. The programs have changed over the years I have 11 12 been here, so from the early years on through, there 13 have been a number of programs that addressed violent 14 crime in particular, some of which still exist and some 15 don't. 16 exists was called Down on Violence, which I participated 17 in, and Alternative to Violence which still exists which 18 I found was very meaningful and it's run by Quakers. 19 talks about peaceful, transformative change, which was 20 really important for me to think about. 21 into the more recent time when ART was established as a 22 program for those of us here on violent crimes. 23 took all of those mandated programs. 24 25 I think the earliest program that no longer And then moved So, I I also started out being a member of the early Parenting classes. It As a mother of a young child, I JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 1 utilized the services and the wisdom of The Parenting 2 Center, which for those 20 years, was headed by . 3 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 A. 8 the director of The Children's Center until 2000- 9 something, and then she became the chaplain of the RMU 10 11 129 Can you spell the Sister's last name? . Thank you. was here before I was here, and she was when it opened here - the Regional Medical Unit. , I think, was one of the most important mentors I 12 ever had in my life. She helped me realize that my goal 13 needed to be reconciliation with those I harmed in my 14 family, with those I harmed in the Rockland community. 15 And she built a relationship to me and my daughter, and 16 my parents, and friends who were helping to raise my 17 child, and urged me to participate in all those 18 programs. 19 to take on being responsible for my child was the 20 framework that made me I realize, as my child got older, 21 I had to be able to explain to her why I left her when 22 she was 11 months old, why I went off to commit a crime 23 that led to such death and destruction, why I threw away 24 chances of getting out sooner. 25 come to terms with being responsible for my family and While they are not official DOCCS' programs, Those programs helped me JUDITH CLARK 1 DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 130 also responsible for my crime. I had left college my second year, as I talked 2 3 about. So, I went back to college when I first got 4 here. 5 point it was still a publicly funded college program. 6 And I discovered that I did not know everything. 7 College was the place where I realized if you think you 8 know everything, then, you can't learn anything. 9 have to open your mind, and I think college really was a Mercy College was available here as -- at that You 10 place that that happened. 11 once took a philosophy class in the early '80s, yet I 12 remember it. 13 about do we have free will. 14 will; it doesn't mean we chose our circumstances, it 15 means we chose our attitudes towards our circumstances. 16 And that became kind of my motto, that, I did choose my 17 circumstances, I committed a crime that brought me here. 18 And now I had to choose what my attitude towards what my 19 life in here was going to be. 20 intellectual process but also, I think, a personal 21 process for me, and that was very, very important. 22 It was also a place where I I had a professor who wanted us to think He said, We do have free It was both an And, during all that time I also worked. I 23 worked in the library for a number of years, I then 24 worked in the print shop for a number of years. 25 actually loved working in the print shop and got a lot I JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 131 1 of skills, and also just liked doing something different 2 with my life. 3 Parenting Center. And then I started working in The When I finished my Bachelor's degree, I went on 4 5 to get a Master's degree in psychology, and that was 6 independent study. 7 Parenting Center was one of the programs we built which 8 is -- when I got out of SHU, it was kind of the 9 beginning of the AIDS epidemic, and it created a real Actually, the job I got before The 10 crisis in here of fear, and stigma and also unmet needs. 11 And we met with the superintendent and asked her to -- 12 if we could help address the problem. 13 our efforts led to the building of a program called 14 ACE - AIDS Counseling and Education. 15 ACE for a number of years through the beginning of the 16 1990's. 17 work with people and also did -- I did care work with 18 people who were dying. 19 with the women in what was then the inpatient care unit. 20 I think that it was a time when I had to think about 21 life and death, and was another way I had to think about 22 the death of 23 And ultimately, And I worked with And in that work I did a lot of educational . We were allowed to spend time , and Because I think any time I have come close to 24 death, I have to look back at the deaths that I feel 25 responsible for. And being with a close friend when she JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 132 1 died in here was an honor in a certain way, but also was 2 a way to think about what's at stake when we are 3 reckless. And then by about 1992, I think by then the 4 5 superintendent felt more comfortable with my being 6 responsible and transparent and allowed me to work with in The Parenting Center and my work 7 8 started out -- for 10 years I thought a prenatal class 9 for all the women that come in here pregnant. When I had done my Master's degree, my thesis 10 11 was looking at the impact on the prison environment on 12 long-term mothers and their children, something that was 13 close to my heart. 14 could I have loved my baby as much as I did and yet left 15 her to commit this crime. 16 a psychological level, the way which often times we 17 escape the conflict we recognize of by splitting and not 18 reckoning with that conflict, not acknowledging the 19 conflict and acknowledging our responsibility to make 20 choices. 21 and ultimately....... 22 Q. 23 you said was "....with pregnant women." 24 A. 25 nursing mothers who I came to work with. And in that work I reflected on how And I identified, sort of at And in the work I did with the pregnant women We lost the connection for a moment. The last thing ....with the pregnant women, and ultimately the They're living JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 133 1 that first year that I had with my daughter, and they 2 also are facing conflicts: 3 they are facing addiction, or they are facing other 4 issues. 5 academic work I did to working with them to bring 6 together those split parts and look at themselves and -- 7 most of those women are short-termers and we have a 8 short time with them to help them realize the most 9 important thing they can do is not get out of prison, They love their children and And I tried to bring my own experience and the 10 but to do the work they need to in here so they leave in 11 a safer way, and stay with their children and crime 12 free. 13 for a lot of years since then. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. There's two other things I want to talk about. 16 During in, I don't know, 2001 or '2, -- I have gone to 17 Jewish services the whole time I have been here. 18 don't come from a religious family but I needed to, as 19 part of my process of becoming an individual and knowing 20 who I was, I had to -- it was important for me to 21 grapple with my identity as a Jew. 22 led to a much more spiritual practice than I thought I 23 would ever have. 24 that process I participated in a training that the 25 Christian chaplain did in here called Clinical Pastoral And I've have continued to work in the nursery I And ultimately, that That's been very important to me. In JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 134 1 Education, which is basically the training chaplains do. 2 For me, that was incredibly important for me because I 3 think my efforts to change were in part a cognitive 4 understanding of what I did but -- and certainly 5 involved a psychological understanding. 6 felt like what I needed to understand and live out was 7 the kind of practice you do in that kind of work where 8 you meet someone fully, embracing they have their own 9 truth and their own reality. But for me, I And it gave me words to 10 sort of experience what I was experiencing, and it gave 11 me a way to sort of move through this prison. Before I got here today, I was talking to a 12 13 woman who has done 11 years and has a long sentence. 14 And she said to me, You know, you have an aura about you 15 that always makes me feel peaceful. And I said to her that, in the face of what the 16 17 damage most of us have done to ourselves and others, the 18 one thing we can give each other is exactly that, a 19 sense of respect and good will. And that's true for my peers and for the staff 20 21 here. And so, that work was important. 22 The final thing I will just mention was the DVD 23 you talked about, is from a writing group that a number 24 of us did with a woman named 25 our writing to explore many things. , where we used But a lot of what JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 135 1 we explored was our feelings about our crimes and coming 2 to contrition and to express contrition. 3 same period was the period we helped to build a college 4 program we have now that's -- that is a college program 5 available to all women here that's run by Marymount 6 Manhattan, but started out as an effort to bring a 7 consortium of colleges. 8 and the staff here and many volunteers to bring academic 9 resources back to Bedford when public funding was And in that We worked with administration, 10 eliminated. And I continue to be a mentor in that 11 program. 12 Q. 13 several that were in the clemency materials - was 14 entitled What I Want You to Do? 15 something else? 16 A. What I Want My Words to Do to You. 17 Q. Okay. 18 summary I have here. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. I have in your primary folder from the facility, a 21 statement of remorse authored by you. 22 date on it, and that's also in Mr. Zeidman's advocacy 23 packet. 24 or what it the approximate date? 25 A. The PBS DVD - and it's not the only DVD, but one of Is that it, or is that So this isn't titled right on this content What I want my words to do to you? It doesn't have a What the date on this statement that you wrote, When did you write it? I wrote it when I did my first -- when I did my first JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 136 1 risk assessment; is that correct? I was asked to -- my 2 counselor asked for a statement of contrition. 3 would say it was in December, I think it was in December 4 of this year. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. 8 contained within your advocacy documents and it's also 9 contained within your primary folder. So I December of 2016, you think? Wait, December of last year, yes. So we have that. And as I said, it's I have copy of several certificates including 10 11 your diplomas. There's The PASS Award from 2003 from 12 The National Council on Crime and Delinquency, to the 13 writing group of Bedford Hills Correctional Facility. 14 Then there's a certificate, Workshops For Training in 15 Nonviolence, Alternative to Violence Project 16 Incorporated, and this is the Quakers' program you spoke 17 about. 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. This was certifying that you've satisfactorily 20 completed the second level course in nonviolent conflict 21 resolution in 1994. 22 Volunteer Services Award for participation in 23 the -- I think this might have been Down on Violence, 24 DOV program? 25 A. Yes. JUDITH CLARK 1994. DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 137 1 Q. Your successful completion of 100 hours of 2 Aggression Replacement Training in '07. 3 of achievement based on successful completion of 1995 4 through '96 Clemente Course in the Humanities, May 21, 5 1996. A certificate Then your pastoral education successful 6 7 completion certificate, August 3rd, 2005. 8 one again for a different unit in clinical pastoral 9 education, April 30th, 2006. 10 Then there's Many other certificates in pastoral work. And then we have a copy of your associate 11 12 clinical chaplain certification from The College of 13 Pastoral Supervision and Psychotherapy, April 12th, 14 2010. 15 I am not going to read all of the 16 acknowledgments, certificates and awards. 17 try to focus on certain ones. I am going to Professional development credit from the Bedford 18 19 Hills Correctional Facility, The Children's Center, 20 October 6, 2011. 21 in here. 22 you the degree of Master of Arts in '93, May '93. 23 Parenting Education certificate of participation from 24 '92 and one from '91 in Parent Education. 25 Training Course. You got dean's lists acknowledgments Norwich University Vermont College, conferring Doula What's a Doula, d-o-u-l-a? JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 138 1 A. A doula is someone who is there for a new mother. On 2 the outside they would be there also during the birth. 3 But here we use that training to -- we were trained to 4 both be able to help the mother practically speaking, 5 but also kind of as a emotional support in the first 6 weeks afterwards, and it allowed us to, -- myself and a 7 number of the caregivers did that training. 8 great training. 9 mothers, I always talk to them about their birth It was a One of the things I do with the new 10 experience, because it's difficult to do it away from 11 home, and they need to process it in order to move on 12 and do what they have to for their babies and 13 themselves. 14 from outside. 15 great training. 16 Q. So, that training was done by a midwife She was really great. It was really a That was awarded to you October 4th, 2002. Then there's one I would imagine would be 17 18 particularly significant for mothers in your situation. 19 This was a certificate of acknowledgment from the 20 Caregiver Staff Development Program of The Children's 21 Center, certifying your contribution as a teacher in the 22 area of infant development, and separation and 23 connection. 24 '89, but it could be '99, too. 25 numbers. I want to say this looks like it could be I can't make out the JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 139 1 A. '99. 2 Q. And that's signed by 3 Many certificates from the nursery program. 4 Counselor Training Program in 2000. , among others. HIV Test Then, we spoke about Puppies Behind Bars. 5 We 6 won't spend a lot of time talking about them. 7 got a certificate for many of the dogs. 8 many dogs did you train, and are you still training? 9 A. I am still training. But you How many, how I have a dog at present, named 10 Legend, who we hope will graduate soon. 11 trained 11 dogs over 15, 16 years. 12 dogs became -- in the early years we trained guide dogs, 13 and a number of them became explosive detection dogs and 14 went to law enforcement. 15 of my dogs became a ADC, I think the superintendent was 16 there at the time, and I said like I felt it was karmic 17 justice. 18 acknowledged trying to change my relationship to law 19 enforcement and protection of society. 20 21 22 I raised and And some of those I remember the first time one And I do feel it's been one of the ways I've COMMISSIONER STANFORD: Commissioner Ludlow has a question on that point. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: Miss Clark, we 23 touched on puppies behind bars yesterday and I 24 commended you on your work on that. 25 wonderful program. That is a I think you made a very positive JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 140 1 contribution, especially with that. And, I have 2 noticed an article from the New York Times. 3 going to ask you this before the Chair commenced the 4 last question, but I will pick up on it. I was Article from the New York Times 5 6 January 3rd, 2017, authored by . I am 7 going to quote a paragraph from that. 8 small table with Governor Cuomo and Miss Clark were 9 the prison superintendent and Mr. Cuomo's chief "Seated at a 10 counsel. 11 Miss Clark as a service dog for returning veterans 12 lay at her feet." 13 A. A black Labrador, Legend, being trained by Yes. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 14 And, I find that 15 especially attractive. 16 fostered 11 dogs, a majority of which have been 17 Labrador Retrievers? 18 A. You testified that you have Yes, one Golden, the rest have all been Labradors. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 19 I have had 20 Labradors over the years. The loyalty of those 21 animals is unsurpassed; the intelligence level is 22 amazing; the bond they create with humans is 23 wonderful, wonderful. 24 have trained that are helping veterans -- I believe 25 with PTSD? And I think the dogs that you JUDITH CLARK 1 A. DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 141 Yes. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: ....afflictions 2 3 is highly commendable. The work those dogs do with 4 law enforcement, searching out drugs, explosive 5 materials, also extremely commendable. Just a question. 6 Well, another 7 observation about those dogs that I think comes into 8 play is the memory factor that an animal has, 9 especially those dogs. 10 A. Uh-huh. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 11 Their memory is 12 not to be underestimated in any respect. 13 moment ago about the bond generated. 14 has had the pleasure, the privilege of having an 15 animal of that quality, you know the bond is 16 unbelievable. Anybody who When Legend was with you and Governor 17 18 Cuomo, I am going to guess something. 19 am correct. 20 touching your feet throughout the meeting. Tell me if I Legend lied on the floor and he was 21 A. 22 what he does. 23 me and I know it's going to help the veteran. 24 25 I said a You are so correct, you are so correct, and that is That tactile grounding, it really helps I think the other part of that work that has been incredibly profound for me is that, in the last two JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 142 1 years we have been able to do a series of team training, 2 which is when the veterans come in here as a group and 3 our class-ready dogs are here, and we work as a team. 4 Those of us that are in Puppies Behind Bars work with 5 our trainers over two weeks to train the veterans about 6 how to utilize the dogs and all of the commands, but 7 also to give them a sense to the dogs as living beings. 8 I was lucky enough that the first training, I had a dog 9 that was Honor, who was there, and was class ready, and 10 I got to see her shift her connection from me to her 11 veteran. 12 several times over the next year and talk about how it 13 changed his life. 14 with people who have sacrificed so much and who bear 15 both visible and invisible wounds, have experienced a 16 lot of trauma. 17 always in the back of my mind is all the people who were 18 killed and traumatized in my crime. 19 head. 20 Here is someone whose life gets changed. 21 about the bond that the dog did, and what changes them 22 is the bond that they have with that dog. 23 great. 24 25 And then he was kind enough to come back And I think that those trainings are And so for me, I see them, and again, That's what's in my But to be able to sort of say in this moment, COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: And they talk And, it's The fact Legend was lying on the floor, touching your feet, was not JUDITH CLARK NYSID# 143 coincidental or accidental. 1 2 DIN#83G0313 A. Exactly. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 3 Anyone who has 4 had those dogs knows it's a trademark of the bond 5 generated. 6 A. Yes, it's really, really true. To me it's been such 7 a privilege to be able to live with dogs. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 8 As I read this paragraph, I immediately thought of my own 9 10 experience and I wanted to ask you if that was what 11 you experienced. 12 to be correct. Yes, yes. And I suspected that I was going Thank you very much. 13 A. I sort of wish I had him with me now, but 14 I didn't think it was appropriate. 15 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 16 understand English, too, don't they, very well? They do, you are so right. And those dogs 17 A. Thank you so much. 18 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 19 Q. 20 ceremony, at your facility, in fact. 21 A. Yup, I remember. 22 Q. It must have been one of the last graduating classes 23 of dogs. 24 group who were receiving those beautiful animals was 25 very moving. I had the privilege of attending a graduation And to hear the stories of servicemen in that And it occurred to me, the work that you JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 144 1 and others in Corrections are doing is part of a thread 2 that really connects people to healing. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Connects those of you who are participating to 5 healing, to those who are hopefully receiving the 6 healing in receiving these beautiful animals, and we 7 hope spreads the healing beyond. 8 are healed don't hurt other people. 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And certainly, I've come to notice over the years 11 that hurt people hurt people. 12 hurt people, then you will have fewer people who are in 13 turn hurt. 14 honor the memories of the people who have been so 15 profoundly hurt. 16 A. Absolutely. 17 Q. Because, you know, some of these babies that are born 18 to the mothers incarcerated, through your efforts 19 again -- and this is separate from the dogs and maybe 20 more significant because we are talking about human 21 beings now who have power and choices to do great damage 22 if they are hurting themselves. 23 whose mother is in incarcerated can take a very bad turn 24 in life, there's a lot of hurt there. 25 able to reconnect mothers to these children, then maybe Because, people who So, if you have fewer And that may also be a way that you can And certainly, a child So, if you're JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 145 1 we are not seeing at least not just one individual, but 2 a generation worth of individuals who then, in turn, 3 won't have the empathy required to not hurt other 4 people, to not commit the kind of violent crime that you 5 are serving time for. 6 that, real hope in that. 7 of the significance of the work you are doing with 8 mothers and their children. I think there's real power in So for me, that's a great part And I just wanted to highlight a couple of the 9 10 Spirit on the Inside photo essay collection. 11 presented by an . It's a photo of her and her son who was two in the photos. 12 This was She only served one 13 year. 14 I still had the urge to get high, but Judy told me that 15 nobody in this world will love your child like you do, 16 and no one will do as good a job of raising him as you 17 will and, that, I better take a good hard look at what I 18 was doing and who I wanted to be. 19 going home one of these days; a lot of us aren't, but 20 you are.' 21 I got from Judy, I'm not getting high. 22 I'm off parole, and I have 23 much." 24 25 She says, "When I gave birth to in prison She said, 'You are And thanks to a lot of all of advice and care I'm in college, and I love him so Then there was an interesting one because this one was a mother and daughter who had both been JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 146 1 incarcerated at the same time at one point. 2 who was 65, at lease at the point of this writing, had 3 served almost 25 years. 4 's grandson And So , , who was 45, with and was 11 months in the 5 photograph, who served almost 10 years. says, 6 "Judy helped me grow personally and educationally. 7 were both inmate advocates for the pregnant women and I 8 learned so much by working side by side with her. 9 also tutored me when I was in college. We She She was my 10 friend as well as my mentor. When my daughter 11 convicted and came to Bedford, it was really difficult. 12 mediated disputes between us and she was very 13 supportive of us and of 14 helped all of us cope with prison life and helped us 15 move in a more positive direction. 16 three grand-kids and my great-grandson have a close, 17 loving relationship. And then 18 three children. got She Today my daughter, I give thanks to Judy for this." says, "Any time I needed to talk 19 about anything, Judy was always present, and I mean 20 present in every sense of the word. 21 was attentive, she was caring, she was resourceful. 22 one time I had a physical altercation and she advocated 23 for me, even though she was also friends with the other 24 person. 25 inmates, and the disciplinary I had received was She listened, she At She stepped in, she got letters from the other JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 1 overturned. 2 ticket had remained on my record. 3 role in that." 147 I would never have made clemency if that Judy played a big So again, here's a great example how hurt people 4 5 continue to hurt themselves and sometimes other people. 6 And these two women, mother and daughter, and certainly, 7 I would think, reasonable to think that, part of the 8 daughter's struggles were maybe as a result of not 9 having her mom, maybe her example not being the best it 10 could have been, or their relationship being strained, 11 committed her own crime that had her serving almost 10 12 years. So it couldn't have been some minor little 13 thing. And yet they found healing through your 14 intervention. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. ....and your wisdom. 17 wisdom. 18 in your own life in terms of your feelings about 19 motherhood and group thinking, how that started you on a 20 path toward healing, and reconciliation and other 21 positive things. 22 death of 23 moments where things happened, realizations occurred 24 that led you to grow. 25 maturity has to do with where you are today? And so, I want to ask you about You talk about the role that mending the split Current events, September 11th, the , and so many, seems to me critical What role do you think just How old JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 148 1 are you today, ma'am? 2 A. 3 it, though I would say that each of us in here has a 4 choice, and an ongoing choice. 5 are in my age in here who haven't yet decided to open up 6 to themselves, though I think that people do that and, 7 you know, people move forward and backwards. I'm 67. So, I know people who But, I think for me, the chance to do all the 8 9 And certainly, I think maturing is part of work that we have just talked about and the opportunity 10 to be honest about myself with other people, to say, I'm 11 not special, my case is not a special case. 12 may be longer than other people's sentences, but I did 13 violence, I allowed myself to not take responsibility 14 for my own inner sensibility, I didn't respect my fear, 15 I thought being tough was the stance I needed to be. 16 But those ways of being meant that I could empathize 17 with women in here who may come from different 18 backgrounds than I do, but who essentially have some of 19 those issues. 20 about where people were at in their change and a sense 21 that -- I think when I first reckoned with how terrible 22 my crime was, like most of us I just got frozen in 23 guilt. 24 wasn't going to get me very far; I had to take my guilt 25 and use it to enliven my life in new ways. My sentence I think it gave me a certain humility And, I had really wise people urge me that guilt And, so, I JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 149 1 think when I have done the work that you have talked 2 about, whether it's with puppies, or with the mothers, 3 or my peers, or the relationships I have with respect to 4 staff, in each of those instances I learned to open up 5 to other people, and to know they have the spark of 6 divine in them that I have in me. 7 the idea that there are enemies, you know. 8 what I say all the time to nursery mothers: 9 fighting with someone who you have more in common with I think I eliminated And this is You are 10 than you have differences with. 11 like this new rule, but the officer may not like it 12 either, but this is our reality. 13 is that we are all interconnected, and anything I do on 14 any day is going to affect all sorts of people that I 15 might not know of. 16 book you are quoting from, it moved me. 17 not like I am happy every day I am in prison, but that, 18 those connections we built made a difference in my life 19 and it made a difference in their life. 20 in a bad mode, that makes a difference too. 21 want that to be the difference I make; I have done that 22 already, I caused the harm. 23 You know, you may not The wisdom I have now So, you know when I read Spirit, the You know, it's And so, if I am And I don't The other wisdom, I think my daughter has taught 24 me an enormous amount. The one thing I knew really 25 early on is that I wanted her to not identify with my JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 150 1 crime. I wanted her to love me, but I didn't want her 2 to identify with my crime. 3 fully so that she could hold me to account for what I 4 did to her. 5 being vulnerable and transparent. 6 think you are powerful when you are tough, you know, I 7 thought I was powerful by shutting off. 8 back, the idea I couldn't even see the people in that 9 courtroom and their hurt, that's not power, you know, And I wanted her to know me And I think I learned from her the power of I think that people But when I look 10 that's the total opposite. And I watched the power of 11 being transparent and vulnerable with my own daughter, 12 so that, you know, I think she has hurt in her life, she 13 faces anxiety, she faces grief, she faces the burden of 14 worrying about me now that she's an adult. 15 knows deeply that I've committed my life to change, and 16 she says it makes her to have courage to know when she 17 makes mistakes in her life - hopefully far less grievous 18 than my own - that she can learn from those mistakes and 19 build a life. She's my bellwether in a certain way. You talked yesterday about 20 But she letter. 21 Before 22 several years ago she came and visited me and said, I 23 need you to hear my experience that day. 24 25 could write a letter in my support, That was very important for me, to have a person who was terrorized and whose whole life was changed JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 151 1 because she had to spend a whole number of years in her 2 life defined by that crime and all of the, you know, all 3 of the trials. 4 sorry. 5 accept my apology, I think in the same way I learned 6 from Mr. Ludlow talking about the victims in the 7 passionate way that he did and what they experienced 8 that day. 9 that there's more to learn from it, there's more of a And, to look her in the eye to say, I'm And then I learned from her willingness to Each I'm hear that, each time I think about, 10 sense of my own need for compassion. 11 I can't ask for compassion if I'm not living out 12 compassion, to anyone, especially to people I might be 13 upset with, or who are doing things that might affect me 14 or upset me. 15 life in this prison, you know, and would hopefully allow 16 me to live a decent life on the outside as well. 17 I think it's true And that has allowed me to live a decent And I have also learned from people who have 18 been victims of other crimes who have come to see me. 19 There's a woman named 20 killed in 911, and she was talking to someone she is 21 close to and saying her frustration that she could never 22 meet the people responsible for his death and understand 23 how could they do that. 24 know the person who can talk to you about their 25 experience. whose brother was And that person had said, I JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 152 In talking to her has really been a profound 1 2 experience for me because it's both -- it's helped me 3 reckon with the humanity of how the pain and loss is 4 forever, and it makes me that much more aware that, in 5 my crime -- you know, this case is a big case and right 6 now I'm sort of the focus of it. 7 of it. 8 years since are the families that have gone on to live 9 their lives in the face of the losses that they But I'm not the center The center of this story and tragedy and all the 10 experienced, and it's their experience that's at the 11 core of this story. 12 to reckon with myself. 13 Q. 14 documents that we have at our disposal that help us to 15 make our decision. Thank you. And that's who I have to look to, I want to go through some of the standard There's no disciplinary history, record of 16 17 disciplinary history for you, within New York State 18 records. 19 days based on some letters that were written, and that 20 might have been before they were recording those 21 disciplinary incidents. 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. Did they even have them categorized the way they do 24 now in tiers, at that time? 25 A. You talked about Special Housing in the early Do you know? Yes, it was a Tier-III, it was a Tier-III ticket, my JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 153 1 only Tier-III ticket. And after that, there were no 2 more. 3 Q. 4 characterize it as an escape sort of communication, were 5 you soliciting help? 6 the nature of the correspondence? 7 A. 8 the place. 9 people I was writing to were fugitives, and I think they The nature of the letters, for someone else to Were you making plans? What was I guess I had descriptions of, like, the layout of I don't think there was any -- and the 10 were sort of saying, you know, maybe we can break you 11 out. 12 never thought I would ever want to do something like 13 that. 14 but I thought it was impossible. 15 to keep in communication. 16 ended up in SHU for those letters is when I began to 17 say, What I am willing to risk for the sake of a 18 fraudulent dream and being connected to people? 19 I and who are they and how do I start to get my own 20 ground? 21 incendiary letters just for sake of being connected and 22 not wanting to be seen, you know, as giving up. 23 once again, put me a terrible situation and made it 24 harder for my daughter to visit. 25 we do something in here that kind of repeats some of the I never thought these people could break me out, I Not because I thought it was wrong at that point, But I had this desire In a way it was -- when I Who am It was realizing that I had written these That, And sometimes I think JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 154 1 same aspects of our crimes, not necessarily as 2 devastating a level, but which is the first thing that 3 wakes us to the fact that something is wrong. 4 it was that, the stupidity of that, that made me say, I 5 have to stop caring about my affinity to a group, and 6 start discovering and examining who I am. 7 Q. What years were those letters written? 8 A. 1984. 9 Q. What period of time were you in Special Housing, do For me, 10 you recall? 11 A. From September 1985 to September 1987. 12 Q. Was there any more communication with any of those 13 fugitives or others more radical persons after your 14 Special Housing experience? 15 A. 16 first of all, back then you could have more visits than 17 you can now. 18 to come in political solidarity. 19 from my same political background, but they were busy 20 rebuilding their lives. 21 and shattered and people had to examine their 22 priorities. 23 especially the people helping to raise the children I 24 was close to, as well as my own. 25 contact with, sort of, that whole political prisoner No, that was it. Actually, at a personal level -- And I said, you know, I don't want people I had friends who came Many other lives were disrupted I stayed friends with some of those people, But I cut off all JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 155 1 scene. 2 Q. 3 the aftermath when you were left to think about the 4 potential consequences, was there a moment at least 5 where you recognized if someone had tried to help to 6 help you to escape who was on the outside, more violence 7 could have ensued with prison authorities, that, if 8 someone came armed using the information you were 9 providing, more people could have been injured or Did you recognize at the time of the writing, or in 10 killed? 11 A. 12 conversation with an officer that was a SHU officer at 13 the time who asked me -- because there were a lot of 14 rumors about why I was in SHU. 15 -- many stories that were not true got blown up about 16 it. 17 And I explained. 18 had probably been there about six months by then. 19 she looked at me, and said, You know, you are so 20 cooperative, and I can't even imagine that. 21 I am, but I am only beginning to realize I can't be 22 cooperative on the one hand and then still think in 23 certain ways, or stay connected or be impulsive for the 24 sake of my group connection because, there can be 25 consequences. Absolutely. I think -- I actually remember a long And in some ways you got And so that officer asked me, What really happened? And I remember that conversation, I And And I said, And that officer was someone who is long JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 156 1 gone, but they had been involved in something, an 2 incident in a prison and they told me about the 3 incident. 4 like. 5 I would never, ever, ever do anything inside, outside or 6 anywhere else that could spin out of control in any way, 7 and that I -- it was when I began to realize that just 8 violent rhetoric - forget about the use of violence - 9 the violent rhetoric can lead to terrible consequences. And they said, I want to hear what it was And I took that in, and I really swore to myself 10 And that's when I stopped doing public writing. 11 also because I got to know officers and the difficulties 12 of their job in that situation, and it began to change 13 my attitude toward people in uniform. 14 Q. 15 noteworthy to say the assessment is built in such a way 16 that it sort of has internal mechanism to test certain 17 things. 18 probability and summary part of it that's titled 19 Defensiveness Scale. 20 assessment, on the Defensiveness Scale it states, "No 21 potential faking concerned." 22 certain answers that fall a certain way, the instrument 23 would send up a flag to suggest that perhaps this person 24 is faking, and it pulls that out of certain replies. 25 We have your risk assessment. And I think it's There's something on the assessment risk And, as a result of your I imagine if there's On the "Recommended Supervision," you're JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 157 1 recommended without an override at the moment, to be 2 supervised as a status 4 case, which is the lowest level 3 of supervision that the community supervision provides 4 for. 5 that, if they see a reason, for whatever reason they 6 deem appropriate. 7 Of course, community supervision can override In terms of Random Response, it states, "No 8 inconsistent response concern." Again, another sort of 9 internal mechanism that the instrument uses to sort of 10 validate and be able to make statements about the 11 quality of the responses. 12 On the assessment itself, it says that you are a 13 low risk of felony violence, 1 out of 10; low risk of 14 arrest, 1 out of 10; for absconding, 1 out of 10. 15 is the lowest risk possible by this tool. 16 involvement is rated at a 3 out of 10, which is 17 characterized as low; history of violence is rated as 18 medium, 6 out of 10; prison misconduct is rated as low; 19 and you are unlikely to have criminogenic needs which 20 statistically, through the use of the instrument, would 21 tend to lead a person back, or to make a person more 22 likely to commit new crimes or have some vulnerability 23 because of these need areas. 24 have criminogenic needs that this tool looks at. 25 This Criminal So, you are unlikely to We also have your Case Plan. Your plans in this JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 158 1 instrument are unique in that they are completely 2 forward looking. 3 recommended programs and beyond over the period of 4 35 years that you have been serving. 5 looks beyond prison, in my opinion. 6 if you think my assessment is wrong. 7 goal of obtaining employment; another goal of continuing 8 to work with the Hour Children, and PPB upon release -- 9 I presume, Puppies Behind Bars? Obviously, you have done a lot of So your Case Plan You can correct me But, you have a 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. It should be PBB? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. ....obtain your Doctorate of education; develop 14 positive peer support. And then it goes back. 15 It looks like you have 16 the forward looking at the front of the document, and 17 toward the end of it are goals you had leading up to 18 this moment and leading up to potential release, because 19 you had a goal of working on clemency -- this start date 20 was 2013; and to live with family is another goal. 21 then "to continue to work in the nursery and raise my 22 dog." 23 So those clearly are older goals. We have the sentencing minutes which we 24 referenced at great length yesterday. And at your 25 sentencing, appearing as legal advocates for the And JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 159 1 defendants present which included you, Mr. Gilbert and 2 first name Kuwasi Balagoon, also known as.... 3 A. Donald Weems. 4 Q. That's Mr. Weems' also known as. So, present for the three of you, and listed 5 6 here as legal advisors for the defendant -- because I 7 don't think they were acting in the more traditional 8 legal attorney capacity for you? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. .....are listed, Judith Holmes, Susan Tipograph, and 11 Lynn Stewart. 12 mentioning Miss Tipograph's relationship not being a 13 more traditional attorney/client relationship. And I recall Commissioner Ludlow 14 Nonetheless, because we do reach out for 15 official statements from attorneys, particularly looking 16 for statements from attorneys who represented the person 17 at the time, to the extent that she was counsel provided 18 by the court to do something for you, she did respond to 19 a letter requesting official statement. 20 returned to the Department dated February 14th, 2017. 21 am just going to read just portions of it. 22 have not seen Ms. Clark in many years, we have continued 23 to exchange holiday and other greetings. 24 followed the progress of her case and I have been 25 friends with her lawyer, Steven Zeidman," Z-e-i-d-m-a-n, This letter I "While I I have JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 160 1 "....for many years. I have also remained in contact 2 with her daughter 3 Cuomo's decision to commute her sentence so that the 4 Board of Parole can decide whether Ms. Clark should be 5 released. 6 under parole supervision. 7 over 40 years, I am mindful on the terrible toll that 8 crime and violence have on communities, victims, 9 families and even on the accused. . I was heartened by Governor I strongly urge you to grant her release After practicing criminal law I do not minimize the 10 suffering that has been experienced by the families, 11 friends and colleagues of the three men who were killed, 12 nor am I in any position to suggest to any of them as to 13 how they should grieve or how best to achieve 'closure' 14 for their terrible loss. 15 board must be made, however, on your own guidelines as 16 to whether Ms. Clark has taken full responsibility for 17 her crimes and whether she will live a law-abing life 18 were she to be granted her release on parole. 19 accounts, the answer to both questions is an unequivocal 20 yes." 21 your actions leading up to and including the events of 22 October 20, 1981. 23 privately and unequivocally." 24 think that's the most significant. 25 The determination of this By all She talks about you taking responsibility for "She has done so publically, And there's more, but I I do want to address some of the information, JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 161 1 other information, contained within your advocacy 2 packet. 3 review it all on the record, but I want to let you know 4 the breadth of documentation that we have received, that 5 the three of us are reviewing, and to create some record 6 of it so that the record stands for itself in terms of 7 the scope of it all. One of the things that Professor Zeidman cited 8 9 It's so much information, we can't possibly in his letter was I think of note. He says, "Thirteen 10 of the fourteen former living presidents of the New York 11 City Bar Association urge Ms. Clark's release. 12 leaders of the legal community include former state and 13 federal prosecutors, judges, law school deans, counsel 14 to then Governor Mario Cuomo, law firm partners, the 15 first African-American and the first female president of 16 the City Bar, and corporation counsel for the city of 17 New York. 18 letter, "The undisputed horrendous nature of Ms. Clark's 19 action 35 years ago, can not be the sole reason for 20 denying her release. 21 demonstrates there are no," and it's emphasized in bold, 22 "other reasons of which to base a denial of parole." These In there words, and he's quoting their An examination of the record And then he goes through recent letters of 23 24 support. He cites , who is cofounder of 25 the Nobel Peace Prize Nominated Organization; JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 162 1 September 11th, Families for Peaceful Tomorrows, and 2 includes their Website. 3 killed in the 911 attacks. 4 letter, which we have a copy of in the exhibits, wanting 5 to meet you to be able to talk to someone who had once 6 been in the position of a zealot that might help her to 7 understand the crime that was committed against her 8 brother and hundreds of others, in fact, over a couple 9 thousand. Her brother . was She talks about, in her But she says -- where he quotes is, this 10 section is bolded, "Judy's life is the embodiment of the 11 very outcome we strive for in our criminal justice 12 system. 13 ones, but there remains an opportunity to bring some 14 solace to the living, and some redemption from a 15 senseless and tragic crime. 16 courageous step in that direction and I strongly support 17 the board in doing so." 18 No one can ever bring back our deceased loved And then Releasing Judy Clark is a , whose car was commandeered 19 by a Brink's perpetrator right after the shooting on the 20 bridge, and testified against you at the trial. 21 describes herself as survivor of the Brinks robbery. 22 She goes on to say, "I spent the next several years 23 testifying to what happened. 24 responsibility to see that justice was done to make sure 25 that the perpetrators were punished." She I felt a huge JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 163 She goes on later in her letter to say, "I 1 2 commend Governor Cuomo for the courageous decision he 3 has made in commuting Judy Clark's sentence. 4 followed Judy's life in prison through friends who work 5 in Bedford Hills, and my own experience as a volunteer." 6 Later she says, "She has work hard to atone for I have 7 her crime. We send people to prison for rehabilitation, 8 to correct their behavior, to atone for their crimes, 9 not to be warehoused for the rest of their lives. Judy 10 Clark is a perfect example that the prison system can 11 work." I found another one very interesting, among the 12 13 many letters of support, from , , an educator, whose son is a police 14 15 officer. And she writes as the mother of a New York 16 City Police Officer. 17 unmitigated grief experienced by the families whose 18 innocent loved ones have died as a result of this 1981 19 crime. 20 not sure that I could ever endorse the parole of anyone 21 who harmed my son who works so diligently to protect the 22 citizens of NYC. 23 are charge with these making decisions, decisions too 24 fraught with emotions for the families of victims. 25 know that your role is a weighty one. "I realize full well the I have nothing but empathy for them, and I am But perhaps this is why Parole Boards For as you I JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 164 1 undertake your deliberations, I hope that you find that 2 it is now time to grant parole to Judy Clark. 3 granting her parole," she goes on later to say, "....you 4 will affirm the evidence of her rehabilitation and 5 provide her with the opportunity to expand her work to 6 help others behind the walls of prison." And then there was 7 By , who is a 8 resident and homeowner in Nyack, New York, in Rockland 9 County. In addition to her own letter, she has 10 submitted a letter signed by a hundred fifty Nyack 11 residents supporting the commutation, and a letter 12 signed by 75 residents of Rockland County urging that 13 you be granted parole. 14 in our hearts as we recognize the tragedy of the Brinks 15 crime. 16 residents about Brinks and about Judy Clark." 17 She states, "We are all united Over the past years I have talked to hundreds of Later she says, "I realize how many in my 18 community share my sadness and frustration that some of 19 our neighbors want to keep this tragedy alive and the 20 vengeance deep. 21 many feel that Judy Clark is an amazing example of 22 redemption and that recognizing her redemption would do 23 more to honor the lives that were lost than the unending 24 anger and vengeance." 25 Nyack is progressive community. So, we do have boxes of petitions with So JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 165 1 signatures. Of course I don't know if you know this, if 2 you are able to keep up with current events, but we 3 received, just in the last few days, a petition signed 4 by nearly 10,000 concerned citizens, presented to us by 5 New York State Senators, urging us to deny your release, 6 but acknowledging you as a driver of a getaway car. 7 Four boxes, in fact, of signatures were delivered to our 8 central offices. 9 Additionally, we've received the clemency 10 materials, which are in their own right, boxes of 11 materials in support; and random submissions, as well, 12 online by letter to the facility, through the Website. 13 In terms of the nature of your support in the 14 communities who support you, of course we've got letters 15 from your own family members, which include your 16 daughter, letters from friends and family; letters from 17 people who know you through your work at Bedford Hills 18 and the programs that we've described; letters from 19 formally or currently incarcerated women; letters from 20 people who have been influenced by you not already 21 mentioned in other places; letters from survivors of 22 violent crime, and this section includes the letter from 23 and 24 . 25 , as well as , Her husband was killed in the 911 attack and she appears in a documentary film, The Power of JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 166 1 Forgiveness; letters and petitions from residents, and I 2 think those are part of the ones referenced by 3 and Mr. Zeidman; letters from religious and 4 spiritual leaders, both in the Jewish community and 5 Protestant community, and I think even the Catholic 6 community is represented here; letters from people who 7 work in criminal justice, California Coalition for Women 8 Prisoners; Transition to Freedom Mentor, Riverhead 9 Correctional Facility; a former chairman of the New York 10 State Parole Board; Amnesty International; Osborne 11 Association; another former member of the New York State 12 Parole Board; former NYPD deputy inspector; Touro Law 13 Center professor, medical doctor; 14 referenced earlier, retired superintendent at Bedford 15 Hills; and professor emerita from CUNY, two letters; 16 letters from the legal community -- former New York City 17 Bar Association presidents that I referenced a moment 18 ago from Mr. Zeidman's letter; Women's Bar Association 19 of the State of New York; New York County Lawyers 20 Association, Criminal Justice Section and Civil Rights 21 and Liberties Committee; deans and directors of clinical 22 programs at every law school in New York State; Sara 23 Bennett, who was your pro bono clemency attorney between 24 2008 and 2015 and the author of the book we've 25 referenced; two individuals who represented and worked , who I JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 167 1 with you in a class action concerning the treatment of 2 mentally ill inmates; and a retired attorney from the 3 New York City Law Department; letters from writers and 4 artists; letters from community members, I think I 5 referenced that, it looks like a familiar list; and then 6 letter from elected officials. 7 This is one I wanted to specifically reference. 8 This is dated March 28th, 2017. 9 elected officials write to express support for Governor 10 Andrew Cuomo's recent grant of clemency and to urge the 11 Parole Board to follow suit toward a more just and 12 compassionate criminal justice system." 13 toward the end, "At age 67 and after 35 years in prison, 14 Judy Clark is among the oldest and longest serving women 15 in New York State prison. 16 is today in 2017 and not who she was in 1981, and employ 17 you to grant her release." 18 Congress members, , 19 "We the undersigned And, it says, We ask you consider who she Among the signatures are , , , , ; then there are state Senators. 20 , And, I 21 mean the list goes on and on and on. 22 everyone's name, but those at the beginning include 23 State Senator 24 , 25 former state Senator. , , I won't read , , - a JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 168 Then you have several Assembly members which 1 2 include 3 Brooklyn Borough President 4 Manhattan Borough President; 5 County Democratic Committee Chair; 6 Controller for the City; former Mayor 7 I said, and many, many others. , ; ; , , New York , the . As And then people sent letters on their own, 8 9 , unconnected to more lengthy signers on other letters. Yes, how could I forget? 10 We recently received a 11 letter from Mayor as well. 12 A. Oh. 13 Q. Again, on the other side and in opposition as well, 14 letters from officials from every strata of government. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 15 We acknowledge a 16 letter from the Monroe County Legislature, in 17 particular the Clerk of the Legislature, , a letter of opposition to your release, 18 19 Ms. Clark, signed by a number of members of the 20 Monroe County Legislature. 21 Rochester. 22 opposed. 23 regard, various e-mailed statements of opposition. 24 And, as the Chair has referenced, likewise, numerous 25 letters of support. Monroe County is greater I think there are 19 of 29 members We have official correspondence in that JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 169 This panel has a very large and 1 2 serious task before it. 3 us to review is - to say it's large would be an 4 understatement. 5 A. The amount of material for I understand. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 6 But under the 7 Executive Law, as you probably know, Executive Law 8 259, we are required to consider the breadth and 9 scope of all of this material. The weight that we 10 give any particular item is allowed by law, allowed 11 by statute, to be within the discretion of the 12 panel. 13 A. 14 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 15 Q. 16 County of Rockland, where 17 sheriff, 18 is an undersheriff, a letter authored by Undersheriff 19 I understand that. On the letterhead of the Office of the Sheriff, is the is an undersheriff, was sent, and he is one that alleges that after 20 your vehicle was crashed, you were reaching for a 21 .38-caliber pistol, and, that a handbook found in the 22 vehicle with your identification also contained an 23 additional loaded magazine for that pistol, "So make no 24 mistake, she was he was not simply a driver, but an 25 active participant in this heinous crime." And you had JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 170 1 an opportunity to address that claim yesterday when we 2 were speaking. 3 We also did get official statement from Rockland 4 County District Attorneys' Office. As you can imagine, 5 with cases with lengths of sentence such as yours, even 6 under normal circumstances - not even including your 7 situation that includes a commutation - often times the 8 DA's office that was actively involved in the trial and 9 prosecution is not in power by the time the day comes 10 for the interview. Thomas Zugibe, Z-u-g-i-b-e, is the 11 DA now in Rockland County and wrote a letter on behalf 12 of his office. 13 Additionally, the judge -- I don't know 14 personally if Judge Ritter is deceased, I believe he may 15 be -- but the administrative judge for his district 16 authorized and designated another judge of Orange County 17 Court to submit a statement on the behalf of the court. 18 And, in the language of the law, it simply requires 19 official statement from the court or the district 20 attorney, so it doesn't have to be the specific person, 21 but a representative of that body. 22 Honorable Nicholas De Rosa was designated for that 23 purpose in your case. 24 working with Judge Ritter for many years and even having 25 opportunity to talk about the case with Judge Ritter And so, the He talks about his experience JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 171 1 over the years. And he notes in his reply to the 2 request for official comment, that Judge Ritter was very 3 specific and very clear as to the reasons for his 4 sentence, and he refers to pages in the sentencing 5 minutes. 6 statements by the sentencing judge more than 33 years 7 ago were logical, relevant and appropriate and just, and 8 those thoughts are no less logical, relevant, and 9 appropriate and just today." He says -- Judge De Rosa says, "Those He says, "Having been a 10 colleague of Judge Ritter for nearly two decades, I can 11 safely say that his opinion as to this case and his 12 sentence never wavered or changed." 13 I think I have reviewed the comments from all of 14 the officials, past and present, that we have that are 15 specifically referenced in Executive Law, for our 16 consideration. 17 Something that said stood out in 18 my mind, as we close out this section of our interview. 19 She said, in a letter dated January 13, 2017 -- and I 20 think this was a -- fairly certain this was a letter of 21 support for you, 22 importance of liberation, if not of the body, then of 23 the mind. 24 25 . She references the And, I often think of liberation something bigger than where you are physically, especially in the JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 172 1 context of this work that we do. And, my question to 2 you is, are you free? 3 A. 4 Passover which is a celebration of liberation. 5 when we have our seder in here, there's always the irony 6 we are celebrating liberation in a prison. 7 answer to that goes back to what that professor said all 8 those years ago which is I have the freedom to choose 9 how to approach each day of my life, and I have that It's interesting, you know, we are about to celebrate And, I think my 10 whether I am in here or outside. I am burdened by my 11 remorse, and by my regrets and shame for the damage I 12 caused each day, living in here and living outside -- or 13 living outside. 14 that, the freedom I have now is that I am more 15 responsible for myself, which allows me to be flexible, 16 which allows me to live with the kind of ambiguity and 17 honesty, the self-honesty that made me very unfree, and 18 allows me to be responsible for myself rather than look 19 to others to make me feel secure because of their 20 opinions. 21 hand, I live in an institution that's very, very 22 contained, and very, very structured and is in the great 23 way about separation. 24 feels that, and it's not a small deal, you know, it's 25 not -- and many people have said to me -- or, people who I think freedom is never absolute, So in those ways I am free. On the other And I feel that, and my family JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 173 1 have said to me, people who are in opposition of my 2 getting out, have said, Well, we agree, she does good 3 work, let her continue that work. And I think about what it would be like to live 4 5 in a larger society and to be more responsible for 6 myself than when you are in an institutional setting. 7 think, in a way, it's greater freedom but it's also 8 greater responsibility. 9 that happens. I I look forward to it and I hope I think that, my state of mind will 10 remain very similar whether I am in here or out there in 11 terms of wanting to live openly, live honestly and 12 generously, and wanting to continue to reach out to, and 13 apologize and feel indebted to all those that were 14 harmed, and specially to the families of 15 , and . And also to 16 those who were injured, to 17 think about those who lost lives, but I know that those 18 who were injured and experienced the trauma of that day 19 live with that trauma forever. 20 to them, which in a way is freedom and is in a way a 21 yoke that I carry whether I'm in here or out there. 22 . I certainly So I'm always connected COMMISSIONER STANFORD: I want to move 23 on to future plans, release plans, opportunities and 24 then some closing. 25 anything my colleagues would like to ask about the But before I move on, is there JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 174 1 section we have been dealing with in terms of known 2 opposition and support? COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 3 I think, Chair, 4 you have covered that extensively and there's 5 nothing further I can add on that topic. COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 6 further. 7 8 BY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 9 Q. 10 11 Nothing Well, we will move on, then, and talk about the future. We know the organization that you reference -- 12 and there's a letter of support from both an individual 13 that works for that entity, as well as a letter from 14 them directly, Brightpoint Health, 15 President and CEO, says, "I am able to offer her," 16 speaking of you, "....employment at Brightpoint Health 17 when she is able to return to the community. 18 be a valuable addition to our organizational cultural 19 department as an assistant to the director. 20 position would entail working with our employees 21 throughout the organization. 22 group trainings, conducting surveys, organizing and 23 promoting special events and programs. 24 forward to having Judith Clark to be a part of 25 Brightpoint Health and contribute to our mission and , She would This This involves leading I very much look JUDITH CLARK 1 DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 175 values in the coming years." Now, who is the employee who also works for 2 3 Brightpoint Health who is a supporter? 4 A. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 Q. ? 8 A. . 9 Q. . ? She's their medical director. And, is also your friend from the early 10 days whose daughter is half-sister of your daughter? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. And she is also making a residence available for you? 13 A. Correct, correct. 14 Q. Does she live at the residence that you would be 15 residing at? 16 A. 17 several other people in the family used to live and now 18 they are grown and gone. 19 it has three bedrooms. 20 and is there to support me, as she has been in these 21 35 years. 22 Q. 23 community that you associated with and were friends with 24 in the -- in the late '70s, early '80s. 25 views, at that time, that have changed over these many Yes, she lives there. It's a large apartment that And she lives there alone, and So she has room available to me Now, I know she was part of the larger extended Did she have JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 176 1 decades? 2 A. 3 well. 4 she was able to maintain a more independent life that 5 gave a little more personal balance so that she might 6 have argued some of the same views, but did not become 7 as embroiled as I did in the more internalized dynamics 8 of it. 9 stayed close to, they too had to reckon with politics 10 that were destructive, and had to figure out a way to 11 regain a more positive way to contribute to their 12 communities. I think she always -- yes, her views have changed as I think because she was then and always a doctor, But like a number of my friends who I have Before Brightpoint Health was Brightpoint 13 14 Health, it was an agency that ran a number of drug 15 programs, residential drug programs, and nursing homes 16 for people with AIDS who were also addicts. 17 done that work for the last 30 years. 18 been the heart of what she's done, along with raising 19 first her child, and then helping her daughter raise her 20 grandson, 21 Q. 22 for her, but I am curious.... I know part of the 23 doctors' oath is to do no harm. 24 the time of your crime, had she embraced violence in 25 terms of a possible solution to social problems? And she has And it's really . Now, I realize you can't speak one hundred percent As far as you know, at JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# Certainly not in her own life. 177 1 A. I think she 2 maintained her oath of do no harm. 3 emergency room back then and I think she -- she 4 supported a lot of the same causes, but in a much more 5 measured way is what I would say. 6 changed her viewpoint; she would also say that the 7 rhetoric of the '60s is totally not appropriate to her 8 life today or her thinking today, and, she has certainly 9 shown that in her work. She worked in an And she's also She received as a statewide 10 award given to a medical doctor that works in community 11 health, and she's received that award and been 12 acknowledged for her positive contribution as a doctor. 13 And that's really been the basis of her life. 14 Q. 15 as we consider the possibility of releasing you to make 16 sure we are not releasing you to a community of people 17 who might have old thinking. 18 A. Absolutely. 19 Q. ....or shared some of the thinking that caused this 20 horrible tragedy in the first place. 21 A. 22 are people that still think -- I mean, they are living 23 completely legitimate and legal lives, but their 24 rhetoric and thinking still is very familiar to me, and 25 they know that I don't ascribe to it and don't really I am glad to hear that, because it's important to us I tried to sort through my old associates, and there JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 178 1 want to involve myself in it. And the people who I 2 have, you know, maintained closer ties with, are the 3 people like me, you know, despite not having been 4 responsible for any direct harm, also feel like I was in 5 a state of mind and frantic activity that is 6 unsustainable and led to the destruction that I might 7 not been responsible for, but certainly have a 8 connection to. 9 on their own form of a journey that I've been on. So, I think those people have also been did not have the same distance to go as I did, 10 11 but I think she's a very moderate, stable presence in my 12 life over all these years, and in the lives of our 13 children. 14 Q. 15 by selling your story? 16 A. 17 don't really want to sell my story. 18 people who want, you know -- I am continuously saying no 19 to lots of people interested, and I would never put 20 myself in that situation. 21 Q. Why not? 22 A. If I do any writing, I think of it -- as I've done, 23 you know, I have written articles examining aspects of 24 certainly the mother/child experience, or how do we end 25 up doing crime, and all of those kinds of issues, but Okay. Do you plan to gain financially from the crime Absolutely not, absolutely not. First of all, I I am fighting back All I want to do is work. JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 179 1 they're not juicy, make money off of my story kind of 2 writing. 3 fact that the victim community will continue to hurt, 4 and I don't want to add to that hurt by kind of puffing 5 myself up in public. 6 to them. 7 going to be most conscious of, is how to rebuild a life, 8 and obviously enjoy freedom without being -- but staying 9 mindful of the impact I continue to have on others who And I also think that I have to respect the I think that would not be helpful So, I think that's probably the thing I am 10 continue to be hurt by the crime and may be hurt by 11 seeing me out. 12 think if I ever did any writing, it would be to try to 13 share some of the lessons of my remorse, and I can't see 14 making profit from that. 15 anything, it would go to the victims bureau; not to make 16 profit off of it. 17 Q. 18 you hope to work and make a contribution? 19 A. 20 head of the Puppies Behind Bars, and she's very happy to 21 think about the fact I will be living in the City and 22 therefore can take dogs -- one of the things we try to 23 do is bring our dogs in the City and we need to see how 24 they can work in a more urban area. 25 help the organization socialize dogs in that situation, Thank you. So, I guess that's what I would say. I If any money came from Beyond Brightpoint Health, where else do I have already talk to , who is the And to continue to JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 180 1 and to assess them. 2 going to be one of my first stops. 3 her I didn't think two weeks out would be enough for me 4 to be stabilized enough to start taking the dogs. 5 she said, They will help you. 6 have to be a little more stable, learn to negotiate life 7 out there. I did try to tell But And, that's true but I And I am also really looking forward to 8 9 I know that Puppies Behind Bars is reconnecting to Hour Children. While they do the work 10 in here, the bulk of their work is outside with women I 11 have worked with in here, and both long-timers I did 12 time with, and nursery mothers I did work with, and find 13 some way to be continue to be useful to them. 14 that, knowing it'll take some time. 15 for 35 years and I don't want to rush into anything, I 16 want to take my time if I get out, and know I am on 17 solid ground. 18 Q. 19 letter as part of your advocacy packet -- let me do two. 20 One was from 21 emerita from City University of New York, and President 22 of Veteran Feminists of America. 23 great pleasure of knowing you for close to three decades 24 and how you met while she was working in the Inmate 25 Education Program and director of the Domestic Violence Okay. I say all I have been away As a final letter, I want to reference the This is the professor She talks about the JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 181 1 Center at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, City 2 University of New York. 3 support dated January 17, 2017, "For much of my 4 professional life I have worked in the area of criminal 5 justice. 6 been an eight-year member of Mayor Rudolph Giuliani's 7 Commissioner to Combat Family Violence, and a professor 8 of City University of New York for 34 years. 9 course of my career, I have met many hardened criminals She says in her letter of I have served on two think tanks with the FBI, 10 with few redemptive qualities. 11 of them." Your daughter 12 During the Judith Clark is not one wrote a letter. She says, 13 "Commissioners, what my mother has lost by being in 14 prison for her entire adult life, she has lost forever. 15 Releasing her after 35 years is not revoking her 16 punishment. 17 to me, what her punishment took from us over the past 18 four decades. 19 us. 20 promise. 21 sentence alongside my mother, so I can speak from my 22 experience as well as hers when I say 35 years in prison 23 is a serious punishment. 24 - it reflects and honors the seriousness of her crime. 25 What I will not say here, and what I have never said is Her release now will not return to her, or Nobody can, or should, give that back to I don't say that as a complaint, I say it as a As much as anyone can, I have lived this It does what the law requests JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 182 1 that my mother has 'paid her debt to society,' or, that 2 she has 'done her time.' 3 tat tone in those phrases that is so at odds with my own 4 experience of grief and feels disrespectful to the 5 suffering to the 6 think of the children whose fathers were killed and I 7 know that their loss is a forever loss. 8 there a people who take solace in knowing my mother will 9 be punished forever, I want them to have that solace. There is wrapped up tit for , and families. I That's why, if I 10 want them to know that if mother is released, I will not 11 be getting back the mother I lost. 12 those years are gone. 13 together is gone. 14 also gone. That woman is gone, The life we would have had And the child she lost, that child is I am 36 years old now." What would be among your most significant goals 15 16 if released? 17 A. 18 and take the experience of living in here and go -- and 19 change and adjust in the way it takes all of those 20 lessons and that way of life to the outside. 21 a very general goal, but it's -- it's to say when I 22 leave here, I continue essentially sustained by the 23 state of mind I have in here. 24 everything I do is going to be conditioned by continuing 25 to be responsible for my crime. I'd say two things -- well, three. One is to adjust And that's And in that sense, One of the things I JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 183 1 always felt is when I have apologized for my crime, that 2 has always been understood, Well, of course she's 3 apologizing, she wants to get out. 4 going to be important for me to be able to apologize 5 directly, in whatever way possible within the framework 6 I can legally do, as a free woman, as someone where 7 there is nothing at stake as there is now. 8 that's probably for me one, of the most important things 9 about getting out in terms of my goal. And I think it's I think And I think my daughter's and I entire 10 11 relationship has been through prison, and I think 12 rebuilding or building -- continuing to build a 13 relationship with her, once on the outside, is going to 14 be a lot of adjustment for both of us. 15 California. 16 and I want her to continue to see me as a resource for 17 that, and to have my being outside help free her from 18 some of her concerns rather than add new concerns to her 19 life. She lives in I want her to continue to live her life, So those are two really important goals I have. And, I think there are a lot of people I have 20 21 to thank. I have come this far with an enormous amount 22 of help and support. 23 communities and individuals my indebtedness, as well as 24 owing the victim community a different kind of 25 indebtedness. And I owe organizations, And my goal is to help make decisions JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 184 1 about what I am going to do based on all that. 2 Obviously, I do want to start working and I am going to 3 have to learn to be a self-supporting person, which is 4 quite a challenge when you are 67 years old, but I 5 luckily I have education and skills to do that. 6 Q. And health, do you have good health presently? 7 A. I do have good health. 8 healthy in here. 9 getting a job is being able to get health insurance. I committed myself to staying And one of the things I get out of 10 have minor chronic conditions, but I want to -- I eat 11 healthy even though I am in prison, and I do yoga, I 12 exercise and the dogs keep me healthy. 13 do is keeping me healthy because it keeps me connected 14 to change. 15 that up. 16 Q. 17 health? I And the work I So far that's worked and I am going to keep And mental health, do you feel you have good mental You talked about bouts of , and what one might imagine, and related to 18 19 your passion and committed to your politics in the early 20 days. 21 A. 22 I always say when I am going to sort of say things are 23 tough in here or something terrible just happened, I 24 say, Okay, something terrible happened but I know I am 25 not depressed. So how are you feeling that way today? Overall I feel great. And I think one of the things JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 185 1 2 And I taught it so often, I have to follow 3 4 what I taught, which is even good changes bring high . 5 And I will definitely look to some of the 6 people who have helped me through this period of my life 7 to help process the change both psychologically and 8 spiritually. I already talked to one of the rabbis I have 9 10 been connected to about doing a ritual if I get out that 11 -- I believe in the power of ritual to go through 12 transformations, and I need that when I get out. 13 Q. Sort of a spiritual cleansing? 14 A. Sort of a mikva: 15 Q. Can you spell that? 16 A. Mikva? 17 water that goes with various rituals. 18 sustaining that relationship to -- in some form to the 19 Jewish community has really been one of the sustaining 20 parts of my life in here and will be important to me. 21 Q. 22 messages this board would be sending by not releasing 23 you? 24 A. 25 prison felt electric, and they were also ecstatic that M-i-k-v-a. In the waters. It's a spiritual cleansing in And I think that, What do you think would be among the most significant I think that, when the Governor gave me clemency, the JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 186 1 he gave other people clemency, including one other woman 2 who was here on a domestic violence case as many women 3 are. 4 that, I represent an approach to doing -- to living in 5 here that is having to be positive, having to have hope, 6 having to take responsibility, having to work on your 7 attitude and relationship to authority. 8 remark, How do you walk around with a smile every day? 9 And I always say, That's part of my responsibility 10 11 But I think what they felt when I got clemency is People always because I put myself here and this is who I am now. So, I think when they heard I have chance of 12 getting out, it gave them hope that, they, too, if they 13 did the right thing, they could get out. 14 went through the changes, were honest, apologized for 15 their crimes and repaired what could be repaired, their 16 lives would not have to be defined by the worst moments 17 of their lives, or the worst choices in their lives. 18 And, I think that if I did not get out, it would be a 19 source of cynicism some people have about what does it 20 matter anyway? 21 if the boars decided they had to hit me, I would handle 22 that situation and remember that Governor Cuomo gave me 23 the gift of 40 years, and I would continue to try to get 24 out, and I am not going to change who I am, I'm not 25 going to become angry or start criticizing. That, if they And, I think I would tell people that, I'm going JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 187 1 to hold true to my values. But I think -- I think hope 2 is a really important part of change and taking 3 responsibility. 4 those kinds of defenses, and, that the women in here, 5 and people outside who are in similar situations, have 6 to feel that their actions over time matter, and, that 7 the imprint we make on this earth can change, you know, 8 that if it's been a negative imprint, it can be 9 positive. When you feel hopeless, you build up So I think that, if I am released, it will 10 engender the kind of hope we want. Not like, Ooh, if 11 get over long enough, I will make my way out. 12 actually, that won't work. 13 land in our reality, to be truthful to ourselves and 14 others, and realize we can stretch and change in maybe 15 ways we did not realize. 16 be lost if I'm not released. 17 express that in either case, just as I will continue to 18 be responsible in either case. 19 Q. 20 to a certain extent in your answer to my last question, 21 is the opposite, then, among the most significant 22 messages we would be sending if we did grant you where 23 release? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. ....in other words, that, good behavior, realignment But no, What will work will be to So that's what I think would But I will continue to And, is the opposite, then, and what you spoke about JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 188 1 with one values at, perhaps birth and childhood, respect 2 of authority, and rules of society and civil living, 3 that those things matter? 4 message? 5 A. 6 -- I think what my daughter said is true: 7 Thirty-five years is a long time. 8 getting out is not somehow, Oh, I got away with it. 9 didn't want to ultimately get away with it, I wanted to 10 own it and change, and feel accountable to the families 11 whose loved ones were lost, and, that my getting out 12 represents a sense that it matters for us to go through 13 what is not a simple process, and it's not easy. 14 you can't fake it; it's either real or not. 15 hopefully it also represents -- I think because as I've 16 been as open as I could be about disdaining violence at 17 a time out there when there is, you know, a lot of 18 contention, that I come out not representing the 19 violence that I committed, but representing someone who 20 changed from that and believes deeply in nonviolence and 21 respect for the law. 22 leave as much as I say it in here, because I believe it, 23 and I believe it's more necessary than ever in our 24 society. 25 Absolutely. Would that be among the Yes, I think so. I think my getting out It's not -- my I And I think, And I am going to say that when I That's what I hope to communicate. COMMISSIONER STANFORD: I'm going to JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 189 ask my colleagues if they have any questions? 1 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: 2 No, I don't have any questions. 3 COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 4 I just want to 5 state again, we have a very large task before us, I 6 think that's obvious. But in closing, I want to express 7 absolute respect and a sensitive memory for 8 , 9 , , 10 , , , , 11 other law enforcement who were there October 20th, 12 1981, members of the public who were held at bay at 13 gunpoint, fortunately not wounded. 14 as we close, we have a heavy heart for three 15 surviving spouses of the deceased, nine children, 16 and now 35 years later, the next generation, grand- 17 children of the deceased. 18 them among the variety of factors we must consider. 19 Thank you, Miss Clark. And we remember all of 20 A. 21 remembering those men as well and I think of them today. 22 I spent all last night thinking about everything that 23 came up in this interview. 24 25 Thank you. And of course, And I want to say I sit here also I want to thank all of you for this interview which has been thorough, and deep and thoughtful, and I JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 190 1 want to thank the Governor for giving me an opportunity 2 to have this moment to apologize, and therefore say that 3 my last words, also, are to apologize to the families of , 4 5 and remember , and to who is still alive, and who I know just recently died, and the family of 6 as well, and 7 . And to also 8 know that many, many other people live with the scars of 9 that day. And, that I promise, that is going to be at 10 the heart of my life no matter what, for the rest of my 11 life. 12 efforts to build their lives. 13 Q. 14 or survivors of that day is possible, working with 15 victim specialists to prepare for such a thing to see if 16 survivors are interested in such a thing and to help to 17 bring such or more meetings like that about were 18 possible, would you be amenable? 19 A. 20 felt that was possible - and I certainly have 21 communicated that I would like to - that would be my 22 number one goal. 23 understanding they have to feel it's something that 24 would be helpful to them. 25 that to them over and over. I owe them that debt, and I respect them in their If a mediated opportunity to meet with family members I would. I think when you asked me my goals, if I I would very much like to do that, I owe that to them, to offer And I know I will always JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 191 1 offer that to anyone who wants to who was both directly 2 and indirectly impacted, because I know there were so 3 many people who were, and I would be happy to do a thing 4 like that. 5 Q. 6 and to consider, but I think the time has come for us to 7 begin that work among the three of us. 8 your answers to our questions and your comments to help 9 us to get the place where we can start to do our work. Well, we do still have a lot to review and to discuss Thank you for 10 So, thank you and you will get our decision in writing. 11 I can't guarantee it will be right away, but you will 12 certainly get it within the statutory period. 13 A. Thank you again. COMMISSIONER LUDLOW: 14 15 I feel honored to be before you. Clark. 16 OFFENDER: 17 COMMISSIONER STANFORD: 18 Thank you, Miss Be well. You too. (Offender was excused.) (After due deliberation by the Parole 19 20 Board panel, the following decision has been 21 rendered:) 22 23 24 25 JUDITH CLARK 1 2 3 4 DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 192 DECISION: Denied. Hold 24 months. Next appearance 4/2019. The Board of Parole commends your 5 personal growth and productive use of time, however, 6 discretionary release on parole shall not be granted 7 merely as a reward for good conduct or efficient 8 performance of duties while confined, but after 9 considering if there is a reasonable probability 10 that, if you are released, you will live and remain 11 at liberty without violating the law, and that your 12 release is not incompatible with the welfare of 13 society and will not so deprecate the seriousness of 14 your crimes as to undermine respect for the law. 15 The significant time spent with your records and 16 interviewing you enabled us to learn a great deal 17 about your crimes and about you. 18 procedures, we considered information regarding 19 relevant factors and applied the standard above. 20 Upon deliberation, we unanimously voted to deny your 21 release to community supervision at this time. 22 We learned that you had a criminal history in 23 Illinois of aggravated battery, aiding escape, mob 24 action and resisting arrest prior to your crimes in 25 New York that resulting in convictions for multiple Following written JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 193 1 counts of murder in the second degree and robbery in 2 the first degree. 3 demonstrate total commitment to revolutionary ideas 4 and objectives for a period that spanned more than a 5 decade between your twenties and thirties. By the 6 time of the crime you were not “a young idealistic 7 innocent, by any means.” In fact, you described 8 yourself as a “single-minded fanatic … at war with 9 America”, a “blinded revolutionary”, “cut off” from You were attracted to violence to 10 your “humanity”. 11 In part, you described the crimes as “policemen 12 completely out-gunned, out-maneuvered and 13 overwhelmed by people intent on killing them.” 14 Further you admit that you did not question your 15 participation before, during, or for a significant 16 period after the crime, or allow yourself to feel 17 the remorse and shame you would feel years later. 18 At sentencing, District Attorney Kenneth Gribetz and 19 Judge David Ritter, noted your statements and 20 behavior during trial and did not believe you could 21 be rehabilitated. 22 intended to serve the goals of deterrence and 23 protection of society. 24 Upon being incarcerated you began to participate in 25 programs, but continued to correspond with people Your original sentence was JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 194 1 you described as “fugitives” and received two years 2 in special housing between 1985 and 1987 for giving 3 descriptions of the correctional facility to these 4 persons to “break” you out. 5 about a year in Federal custody for what you told us 6 were unrelated reasons. 7 Your rehabilitative efforts and institutional record 8 include: Down on Violence, Alternatives to Violence, 9 Aggression Replacement (ART), helping to create AIDS You would also spend 10 Counseling and Education (ACE) and college programs 11 for female inmates. 12 degrees, trained eleven dogs for service, law 13 enforcement and therapeutic purposes, received 14 Clinical Pastoral Education and worked with mothers 15 and their children within the correctional facility. 16 We considered a favorable risk and needs assessment 17 and stated goals within a recent case plan. 18 release plans include solid employment offers, 19 residence with a physician friend who is one of few 20 former associates from your days in the May 19th 21 collective, and the continuation of some of the 22 efforts described above. 23 We noted that when you began to become accountable 24 for your role as getaway driver and “opened up” to 25 others, you “eliminated the idea that there are You earned Bachelor and Master Your JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 195 1 enemies,” and understood that at “the center of this 2 story and tragedy, and all the years since, are the 3 families” of the victims. 4 We reviewed boxes of public support and boxes of 5 public opposition. These records included 6 significant submissions from attorneys on your 7 behalf, clemency and parole exhibits and letters 8 from your family, friends and supporters. 9 governed by the law, while we considered and weighed Being 10 support, we were persuaded against release by 11 opposing information that includes statements from 12 former and current officials, and statements from 13 survivors and affected parties found in pre-sentence 14 records, sentencing minutes and other public 15 records. 16 We noted that you want to apologize directly to any 17 interested victims or family members. 18 believe that personal apologies would be most 19 credible once you are released, apologies extended 20 before you are released may be beneficial to all 21 parties. 22 mandate or facilitate such meetings or dictate the 23 terms or circumstances, and any such meeting would 24 only be possible if desired by survivors of the 25 crimes or victims' family members. While you In any event, the Board of Parole does not JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 196 1 We also noted your appreciation for the Governor's 2 commutation of your sentence and for our independent 3 process. 4 lawful decision to exercise his unique discretion in 5 your case. 6 substantial additional information that was created 7 and submitted pursuant to our unique process. 8 Finally, it is noteworthy that you said that you 9 would not change if you weren't released, but would We respect and understand the Governor's By the time of our interview, we had 10 hold true to your asserted values, continue to 11 encourage positive change in others and try to get 12 released. 13 We do not depart from your favorable risk 14 assessment; however, we do find that your release at 15 this time is incompatible with the welfare of 16 society as expressed directly by relevant officials 17 and thousands of its members, and that it would 18 deprecate the seriousness of your crimes as to 19 undermine respect for the law. You are still a 20 symbol of violent and terroristic crime. Perhaps the 21 transcript of our interview will allow parties, 22 whose statements we must consider, to read about 23 your ongoing personal evolution for the first time. 24 Until your next appearance, we urge you to continue 25 to “communicate nonviolence and respect for the law” JUDITH CLARK DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 197 1 and to believe and warn others in your own words 2 that “everyone has a right to life” and “violent 3 rhetoric can lead to terrible consequences” and to 4 share what it feels like to “bear responsibility for 5 the loss of life, the injuries and the terror” 6 caused by violent criminal actions. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (All commissioners concur.) 198 1 C E R T I F I C A T I O N 2 3 I hereby certify that the proceedings and 4 evidence are contained fully and accurately in the notes 5 taken by me on the above cause and that this is a correct 6 transcript of the same to the best of my ability. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 S u s a n Fi s c h l e r