1 1 SENATE JUDICIARY COMtv!ITTEE 2 U.S. SENATE 3 WASHINGTON , D. C . 4 5 6 7 INTERVIEW OF : DONALD J . TRUMP , JR . 8 9 10 11 THURSDAY , SEPTEMBER 7 , 2017 12 WASHINGTON , D.C . 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 The interview i n this matter was held at the U. S . Cap itol Building, , commencing at 9 : 34 a . m. 2 1 APPEARANCES : 2 SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE : 3 Patrick Davis , Deputy Chief I nves tigat ive Counsel , 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Chai rman Gras s ley J ason Foster, Chi ef Investigative Counsel , Chairman Grassley Lee Hol mes , Chi e f Counsel , Senator Li ndsey Graham Daniel Parker , Investigative Assis tant, Chairman Grassley Heather Sawyer , Chief Oversight Counse l, Se nator Feinstei n Brian Privor , Senior Counsel , Se nator Feinstei n Jennifer Duc k, Staff Director , 16 Senator Feinstein 17 Molly Clafli n, Coun se l, 18 Senator Feinst ein 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Lara Quint , Chief Counsel , Se nator Whi tehouse Caitlin Meyer , Profess i onal Staff , Se nator Fei nstein Joshua Flynn- Brown , I nvestiga t ive Counsel , Chairman Grassley 3 1 APPEARANCES : 2 SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE : 3 DeLisa Lay, Senior I nvestigative Counsel , 4 5 6 (Contd ' ) Chai rman Gr ass l ey Ka theri ne Ni kas , I nves ti ga ti ve Counsel, Chairman Grassley 7 8 FOR THE WITNESS : 9 Alan Futer f as , Law Offi ces o f Alan Futerfas 10 Karina Lynch , Williams & J ensen 11 Alan Gar t en , Trump Organization 12 13 ALSO PRESENT : 14 Senator Dick Durbin 15 Senator Richard Blumenthal 16 Senator Chris Coons 17 Senator Orrin Hat c h 18 Senator Amy Kl obuchar 19 Senator She ldon Whit ehouse 20 Senator Al Fra nken 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 I N D E X 2 EXAMINATION 3 WITNES S PAGE 4 By Mr. Davi s 21 5 By Ms . Sawyer 68 6 By Mr . Davis 121 7 By Ms . Sawye r 14 0 8 By Mr . Priv o r 14 9 9 By Ms . Sawyer 1 97 10 By Mr. Foster 22 2 11 By Mr . Davis 223 12 EXHIBITS 13 DJTJR EXHIBITS PAGE 14 Exhibit 1 22 15 E- mail 16 Ex hibit 2 17 • 25 call l og 18 Ex h ibit 3 19 E- mail 20 Exhibit 4 21 E-mai l 22 Exhibit 5 23 E- mail 24 Ex h ibit 6 25 E-ma il 30 34 47 52 5 1 EXHIBI TS 2 (Con t ' d ) 3 4 5 6 7 Exhibit 7 New York Ti mes a r ticl e Exhibit 8 Exhi b i t 9 Tweet 9 Exhibi t 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 New York Times ar t icle 8 10 54 56 75 E- mail Exhibit 11 • 85 pho n e bill Exhibit 1 2 124 E- mail Exhibi t 1 3 130 E- mail Exhibit 14 132 News Wee k article Exhibit 15 Statement of Don ald Trump , Jr . 140 6 1 MR. DAVIS : Good morni ng . Thi s is the 2 transcribed int ervi ew of Donald Trump, Junior. 3 Chairman Grassley and Ranking Member Feinstein 4 first invit ed Mr . Tr ump to testify at a public 5 hearing entit l ed Oversight of the Foreign Agents 6 Registration Act and At tempt s to Influence 7 El ect i o n s , Les sons Learned From Current a nd Pri or 8 Administrations . 9 testify at that hearing a nd the commi t tee wit hdr ew 10 its invitation f o r him to appear vo luntarily after 11 he agreed to this interview. 12 13 Mr . Trump was not compelled to Woul d the wi t ness please state your name for the record . 14 THE WITNESS : 15 MR. DAVIS : Donald John Trump, Junior. On be half o f the Chairman I want 16 to thank Mr . Trump f o r appearing here today. 17 name is Patri ck Davis a nd I ' m the Deputy Chi e f 18 I nve stigative Counsel with t he Committee ' s majority 19 staf f. 20 My I 'll ask everyone from t he commit t ee who 21 is here at the t able to introduce t hemselves as 22 well . 23 24 25 MR . FOSTER : Jason Foster, Chief I nve stigative Counsel for Chairman Grassley. MR. HOLMES : Lee Holmes, Chief Counsel for 7 1 Senator Lyndsey Grah am . 2 MS. SAWYER: 3 4 Counsel for Senator Feinstein. MR. PRI VOR : 5 Sena tor Feinstein. 6 MS . CLAF LIN: 7 Senator Feinstein. 8 9 Heather Sawyer, Chief Oversight MR. DAVI S : Brian Privor, Senior Coun se l for Molly Cla f lin , Counsel for The Federa l Rules of Civi l Procedure do n ot apply to any of the Committ ees ' 10 investigative activities , including transcribed 11 interviews . 12 a nd I'll go over those now . 13 There are some guidelines we follow MS. SAWYER: Patrick, before we s t art can we 14 have the record reflect Senators Durbin a nd 15 Blumenthal are also p re sent. 16 MR. DAVIS : Our questioning will proceed in 17 rounds. 18 first for one hour . 19 have the opportunity to each ask quest i ons f or an 20 equal amount o f time . 21 until the r e are no more questions and the interview 22 i s over. 23 The majority staff will ask quest i ons Then the minority s t aff wi ll We wil l go bac k and f ort h We t ypically t ake a short break a t t he end 24 of each hour , but should you need t o take a break 25 at any other time , please let us know . And we can 8 1 d i scuss t aking a b r eak f o r l u n c h wheneve r you 're 2 r eady t o do tha t. 3 We have an official report er taking down 4 everythi ng we say t o make a writt en r ecord . 5 ask that you g i ve verbal responses to a ll 6 questions . So we Do you underst and . 7 MR . TRUMP : I 8 MR . DAVI S : So that t he court reporter can 9 do . t ake down a c l ear record , we 'll do o ur b est t o 10 limit the number o f people d i rec t ing questions at 11 you during any g i ven hour t o t hose whose turn i t 12 is. 13 one another or interrupt each other if we can help 14 it. 15 int e r v i ew . I t ' s a l so impor t ant that we d o n' t t a l k ove r Th a t goes for everybody present at t oday ' s 16 While senators on the committee may 17 observe , t he Chairman a n d Ranking Member h ave 18 agree d that on l y staff will ask quest ions today . 19 We encourage witnesses who appear be f ore 20 t h e Commi tt ee to con sul t 21 they so choose . 22 counsel. 23 record . 24 25 f ree l y wi th counsel if You are appearing here t oday with Coun sel p l ease stat e your n ame f o r t he MR . FUTERFAS : F- U-T-E- R- F- A- S . Good morning . Al an Fut er fas , 9 1 MS. LYNCH : 2 MR. GARTEN : 3 MR. DAVIS : Karina Lynch , L-Y- N- C- H. Alan Garten, G- A- R-T- E- N. We want you to answer our 4 q ue s tion s in t he most comp l ete and trut h ful manne r 5 poss i bl e . 6 any ques t ions or if you don ' t understand any o f our 7 q ue s tion s , pl ease l e t u s know . 8 don ' t 9 remember , it ' s be st no t t o guess . So we will t ake our t i me . I f you have If you hones tly know the answer t o a quest i on or don 't Ju s t give us 10 your bes t reco ll ection . 11 you learned i nformati o n from someone e ls e i f you 12 indi cate how you came t o know t h at informat i on . 13 there are t hi ngs tha t you d on ' t 14 remember , we ask t hat you inform us to the best o f 15 your knowl edg e who might be abl e t o p r ov ide a more 16 complete answer to t he ques ti on . 17 It' s okay to tell us if If know or can 't Thi s i n t e r v iew i s u nc l ass ifi ed . So if the 18 q u estions call for any information that you know t o 19 be c la ssi fi ed , p l ease state that f o r the record as 20 well as t he reaso n f or the c lass ifi cati o n. 21 then once you ' ve cla rifi ed t hat , t o the e x tent 22 poss i bl e , p l ease r espond wit h as much uncl assifi ed 23 information as you can . 24 classified sess i on lat e r , tha t can be arranged . 25 And If we need t o have a It i s t hi s Committ ee ' s practice to ho no r 10 1 valid commo n l aw privilege claims as an 2 accommodation to a witness or party when those 3 claims are made in good faith and accompanied by 4 su ffi c i ent explanat i on s o that the Committee can 5 evaluate the claim . 6 a privilege the Commit t ee we ighs i t s need for the 7 informat i on against any legitimate basis for 8 withhol ding it. 9 honor contractual confidenti a lity agreeme nts. 10 When dec iding whe ther t o honor The Committee typically does not The Committee and Mr . Trump have agreed 11 that this interview is occurring without prejudice 12 to any future discussions wi th the Committee and we 13 reserve the right to request Mr. Trump's 14 participation in future interviews or to compel his 15 testimony. 16 agreed that partici pation in this interview does 17 n ot constitute a waiver of h is ability to assert 18 any privil e ges in response t o future appearance s 19 before this Committee . 20 Th e Commi tt ee and Mr. Trump have also You should understand that, although the 21 int ervi ew is not under oath , by law you are 22 required to a n swer quest i ons from Con gress 23 truthfully. Do you understand that? 24 MR. TRUMP: I 25 MR. DAVIS : Specifically, 18 U.S. C . Section do . 11 1 1001 makes it a crime to make any materially f a l se , 2 fictitious, or fraudulent s tatement s or 3 representation in t he course of a congressional 4 in ves tigat ion. 5 statemen t s i n this int ervi ew . 6 that? That statute applies t o your Do you understand 7 MR. TRUMP: I do. 8 MR. DAVIS: Witnesses who knowi ngl y provide 9 f alse s tatement s could be subjec t t o c riminal 10 prosecution and imprisonment for up to five year s . 11 Do you understand tha t? 12 MR. TRUMP: I 13 MR. DAVIS : I s the re any reason you 're unabl e 14 do. to provide trut h ful answers to today's questi ons? 15 MR. TRUMP: No. 16 MR. DAVIS : Finally, we ask that y ou not 17 speak a b out wh a t we discuss in this intervi ew with 18 anyone e l se outside o f who ' s here in the r oom t oday 19 in orde r t o preserve the integrity of our 20 in ves tigati o n. 21 exhibits o r other Committee documents from the 22 inte rview. 23 24 25 We also ask that you n o t remove any Is t here any thing else tha t my colleagues from the minority want to add ? MS. SAWYER: Good morning. Than ks f o r be ing 12 1 wit h u s t oday . 2 make c l ear that Sen ator Coons h as a l so j o ined us 3 now as well . 4 5 6 We appreci ate it. MR. DAVIS: I j ust want to Mr. Trump, would you like to make a statement? MR . TRUMP : Yes . Thank you . 7 I wel come the opport unity to share thi s 8 prepared statement in an effort t o set forth the 9 sum a nd substance of what I know regarding a 10 meeting t hat I attended on J une 9 , 201 6 . 11 thank ful for the o ppo rtunity t o meet with you t oday 12 a nd look forwa rd to answer ing all of your 13 questions . 14 with any f o r e ign government a n d do n ot know o f 15 a n yone who d i d . 16 I'm As will become c lear, I did not collude From 2002 t o 2015 t he Trump Organization 17 a n d NBC Unive r sal were co- owner s of the Miss 18 Universe Pageant. 19 been h e ld in count ri e s around the world includi ng 20 Cyprus , Ecuador , Puerto Rico, Thailan d , Mexico, 21 Bahamas , Vietnam, and Brazil. 22 t h e pageant was hel d a t Crocus City Hal l, a concert 23 venue in Moscow, Russ i a owned by real estate 24 deve loped Aras Agala r ov . 25 t h e Mi ss Uni verse Pagean t , I h ave been t o Russia on Over the years the pageant h a d On No vember 9 , 201 3 Though I did not a tt e nd 13 1 2 a f ew occas i o n s , most r ecently i n 2011. Fo ll owing t he pageant t he Trump 3 Organi za t ion and Mr . Agalarov ' s company, Crocus 4 Group , began pre limi naril y di scu ss i o n potenti a l 5 real e stat e projects in Moscow . 6 first time t he Trump Organizat ion had explored 7 po te n ti a l r eal estate d eal s in Russ i a . 8 real e stat e company and ho t e l comp any wit h projects 9 c urre n tly in Canada , I ndi a , Indo ne s ia, Ireland , This was not t he As a g l oba l 10 Panama , Turkey , t he United Arab Emi rates and the 11 United Ki ngdom , Uruguay , and el sewhere , prior t o 12 the e l ec ti o n the Trump Organiza ti on was loo ki ng t o 13 expand int o new i n t ernational marke t s , ju s t li ke 14 it s comp etitor s . 15 was not able to find a s uit a bl e pro j ec t a nd has no t 16 consummated any real estat e deals o r made o t her 17 in ves tment s in Russi a . 18 Ultimately, however, t he compan y Some time a ft e r the pageant the Trump 19 Organiza ti on invited Mr . Agalarov ' s son , Emi n , a 20 s u cce ss ful pop si nger , t o per for m a t t he WGC 21 Championshi p Golf Tournament which was being he ld 22 in March 20 14 a t Trump Nati onal Go lf Course i n 23 Doral , Florida . 24 Miss Unive r se Pageant in Moscow , thi s was the first 25 t ime I recall meet in g Emin and hi s ma n ager Rob As I was not in a tt endance at the 14 1 Go l ds t o n e in person. 2 On June 16 , 2015 my f ather a n nounced hi s 3 intention t o run for President of t he United 4 St a t es . 5 campai gned tire l essl y , trave l ing across t he country 6 in an effort to convey his vision for the count ry 7 to t he Ameri can peop l e . 8 experi ence i n polit i cs , my fa t her ' s mes s age to the 9 count ry inspired me as it d id mi llion s o f o t hers . Over the ne x t year a nd a hal f my f a t he r Though I had no pri o r 10 From the moment he announced his candidacy my 11 s i blings and I worked day in and day out to suppor t 12 o u r f at h er . 13 before and it was exhausting , all encompassing , and 14 a li f e - changing experi e nce . 15 fie lded dozen s , if n o t hundreds o f e - mails and 16 phone calls . 17 underdog we had a very modest sta f f a n d were f orced 18 to learn as we went along . 19 numerous challenges and requi red my attention t o 20 many d i ffere nt issues . 21 I had n eve r worked on a campai gn Every s ing l e day I Because my f ather started of f as the Every day presen t ed The Republican pr i maries began on 22 Februar y 1, 201 6 wit h the Iowa caucu ses . Alt hough 23 my father did no t win I owa , over t he next several 24 mont hs he was fortunate to preva i l in New 25 Hamps hi re , Sou t h Caro lina , Nevada , Al abama , 15 1 Arkansas , Georg i a , Mass a c huse tt s , a n d many other 2 s t a te s . 3 uncert ain whether my f ather would rece ive t he 4 n omi nat i on for President a t the Repu bli can Na tiona l 5 Convention i n mi d -Ju l y . 6 Nevert he l ess , as o f June 2016 it was s til l Despite overwhelming support fro m t he 7 American peopl e , it was widely repo rted tha t some 8 withi n the party were attempting t o undermi ne t he 9 p roces s in a n e ffort t o force a contes ted 10 convention . 11 in the process of repl acing our campaign mana ger . 12 It was an ext r aordina rily inten s e peri o d of time . 13 While this was going o n we wer e also In the mids t of t h is maelstrom on the 14 morni n g of J une 3 , 2016 I received a n e - mail f rom 15 Rob Goldstone. 16 qu it e some time , Rob would int e rmittently cont act 17 me . 18 New York area Rob would gracious ly inv it e me to 19 a tt end. 20 candidacy Rob was amo ng t h e man y i ndi vidual s who 21 woul d r each out fr om time t o time do congrat u l a t e 22 u s on winni ng a primary or t o s h ow their s u pport. 23 Alth ough I had n ot seen him i n For example , wh e n Emi n would perform in t he Similarly, a ft e r my fat her announced hi s In his e - mail to me Rob sugges t ed t hat 24 someone had offi c ial documents and information tha t 25 wo uld inc riminate Hill a r y Clinton a n d her dealings 16 1 wit h Russ i a and that the i n f o r ma ti o n woul d be very 2 useful to the campai gn . 3 of his outreach as I had only know Rob as Emin's 4 somewhat co l or ful music promoter who h ad wo r ked 5 with famous pop singers such as Mi c hael Jackson. 6 Since I had no addi t ional information to validate 7 wh at Rob was s aying I did not qu it e kn ow what to 8 make of his e-mail. 9 reliability, credibility, or accuracy of a n y of the 10 I was somewhat skeptical I had no way to gauge the things that he was saying . 11 As it later turned out , my skepti c ism was 12 justified. 13 info rmation and turned out to be no t about what was 14 represented. 15 focused on Russian adoptions , whi ch i s exactly what 16 I said over a year later in my s t ateme n t of July 8 , 17 2017 . 18 Th e meeting provided no meaningful The meeting was instead primarily Nonetheless , at the time I thought I 19 sho uld listen to what Rob and his colleagues had to 20 say . 21 conc erning the fitness , character , or 22 qualifi cation s of any p r eside nti al candidate , I 23 believed that I should at least hear them ou t. 24 Depe nding on what , if any , information t hat t hey 25 had, I could t hen consult wit h counsel To the ext e nt that they had information t o make a n 17 1 info rmed deci s i on as t o wh ether t o g i ve it any 2 furt her consi derat i on . 3 there was no focus on Russian ac t ivi t ies tha t t here 4 i s t oda y . 5 I a l so n o te a t t hi s time I n responding to Rob ' s e - mail I wrot e back 6 and sugges t ed that perhaps I speak to Emin fir st . 7 As much as some have made o f the phrase "I l ove 8 it ," i t was s imply a co l loquial way of s ayi ng t hat 9 I appreciat ed Rob ' s gest ure. Th ree days l a t e r o n 10 J une 6th Rob contacted me agai n about schedu li ng a 11 t i me for a call with Emi n . 12 three very s ho rt phone call s bet wee n Emin a nd me on 13 J une 6th and 7th . 14 Emi n . 15 messages . My phone records show I do not recal l speaking wit h It' s possi bl e we l e ft each o ther voi cemail s I s i mply don 't remember. 16 The next day, J une 7 th , I received a 17 foll ow-up e - mail fro m Rob inquiring about the 18 dat e s and times f or a meet i ng . 19 e - mai ls Rob menti ons that two people would be 20 a tt ending, o ne o f wh om was a l awyer . 21 learned from Rob that t he l awyer was a l ready 22 scheduled t o be in court i n New York on June 9th. 23 I have also seen press r eports that she was on 24 Capitol Hill and att ended a congressional hearing 25 o n J une 14th. I n o ne o f the I later 18 1 Whil e Rob said he wo uld se nd me the names 2 of the a ttendees f or the June 9th meeting , he never 3 did . 4 woul d attend. 5 our newly hired campaign manager Paul Manafort 6 would likely also a tt end . 7 Paul if they coul d attend, but told them no n e of 8 the substanc e or who was going to be there since I 9 did not know myself. As a result I had no advance knowledge of who I told Rob that Jared Kush ne r and I then asked Jared and Because we were in the same 10 building Paul , Jared, and I would routinely invite 11 one another to attend meetings at a moment ' s 12 notice . 13 On June 9th -- June 9th was like every In 14 other day during the campaign , it was chaotic . 15 addi ti o n to the campaign we st ill had a company to 16 run . 17 fulfilling hi s promise to the American peopl e , 18 responsibility for the company fell squarely on the 19 shoulders of my siblings and me . 20 spent June 9th in a series o f campaign and 21 business-re lated meetings and interviews. 22 meeting which Rob asked f or was on my calendar at 23 4:00 p . m. marked simply as "Meeting , Don Jr., Jared 24 Kushner ." 25 Because my father was solely focused on Accordingly, I The As I recall, at or around 4 :00 p .m. Rob 19 1 Goldston e came up to our o ffi ces and entered our 2 co nference room with a lawye r I know n ow to be 3 Nat a lia Ve selnitskaya . 4 trans lat or a nd a man who was introdu ced to me as 5 Irakl y Kaveladze . 6 Paul j oined . 7 repo rt ed that t here we r e a t o tal o f e i ght peopl e 8 present a t the meet ing , I o nly r ecall s even . 9 Beca u se Rob was abl e to b ring the e ntire gro up u p Joining them was a Aft e r a few minu tes Jared a nd While numerous p ress outlet s have 10 by only giving his name to t he security in the 11 lobby , I h a d no advance wa rning rega rding who o r 12 h ow many peopl e would be a tt e ndi ng . 13 attendance l og t o refer back to and I did not t ake 14 n o t es . There i s n o 15 Af ter perfunc t ory g ree tings t he l awyers 16 b ega n tel li ng the group very general ly s omething 17 a bout indi v idua l s connected to Russia s upporting or 18 funding Democrati c p r esidenti a l candidate Hill a ry 19 Clinton or the Democratic Nati onal Committee . 20 was quite diffi c ult for me t o understa nd what s h e 21 was s aying o r why . 22 pol it e l y as ked if s h e could be mo re specifi c and 23 pro vide more c l arity a bout her o bject ive for the 24 mee ting . 25 It Given our b usy s chedu les , we At that po i n t Ms . Vesel nitskaya p i vo te d 20 1 a n d began t a l ki ng about t h e adop ti o n o f Ru ss i an 2 c h ildren by U. S . c i t i ze n s and somet hing call ed the 3 Magni t sky Act . 4 t h e Magni tsky Act a n d had no f amili a ri ty wit h thi s 5 issue . 6 asking for the meeting all along was to discuss 7 Russian adopti ons a n d the Magni tsky Act . 8 9 Until t hat day I ' d never heard of It was clear to me that her real purpose in At this point Jared excused himself from t h e meeting t o t ake a p ho n e cal l. I p r oceeded to 10 quickly and politely end the mee t ing by telling 11 Ms . Veselnitskaya tha t because my father was a 12 priva t e cit i zen t here d i d no t seem to be a n y po int 13 for having this discussion . 14 t i me a nd everyone l eft t he co n ference room . 15 walked out I r ecall Rob coming over t o apol ogize . 16 She thanked us for our I have no r eco llection of documents b e ing 17 offered or l eft for us . 18 30 minutes . 19 meeting again . 20 wi th Jared , Paul , or anyon e e l se . 21 it no further though t. 22 As we The mee t ing l as t ed 20 to Rob , Emi n , and I neve r discussed t he I do not recall ever discussing it I n short, I gave As i s clear f rom the above , I d id n ot 23 collude wi t h any foreign government and did no t 24 know anyone who did . 25 opportun ity to he l p resol ve a n y l inger ing conce rns I' m g r ateful for t he 21 1 that may exist regarding t hese event s . 2 proud o f the campaign that my fa t her ran a nd I was 3 honored t o be a part of it . 4 MR. FUTERFAS : 5 MR . DAVIS: 6 7 8 9 10 13 14 That concludes the stateme nt. Tha nk you . The time is now 9 : 48 and we will ge t s t arted with the first hour o f ques tio ns . MS . SAWYER : Pa trick , before you do I jus t want ed to not e that Senator Kl obuchar has a l so joined us . 11 12 I'm ve ry EXAMINATION BY MR . DAVIS : Q . Mr . Trump , could you please state your full name for the record. 15 A. Do nald John Trump , Junior. 16 Q . What is your professional background? 17 A . Real estate devel oper . 18 Q . When d id you begin worki ng at t he Trump 19 Organization ? 20 A . 2001 , September. 21 Q . And what is your current r ole a t the Trump 22 23 24 25 Organiza t io n ? A . Executive vice presiden t of development and acqu i sitions . Q . Did you have a n o ffi c i a l rol e on your 22 1 father ' s c a mpaign for pres i dent? 2 A . No t an offi c i a l role , n o . 3 Q. During the campaign did you report t o any 4 5 individua l s wit hin the campaign s truc t ure? A . No t in any f o rmal s truc ture , no . 6 (DTJR Exhibit 1 was marked f or 7 8 9 i de ntifi cati on .) BY MR . DAVIS : Q. Mr . Trump , I ' d like t o t urn to the e - mail 10 chai n beginni ng on June 3 , 20 16 be t ween you a nd Rob 11 Go l dstone . 12 A. Yes . 13 Q. Which lat er i nclude d an e - mail from you t o 14 Paul Manafo rt . I will l abel thi s Exhi b it 1 . 15 A. Thank you . 16 Q. The Bate s numbers a re DJT FP- 0001 1895 17 t h r o ugh 897 . 18 stat emen t, but j ust t o make sure , t he chain 19 references people named Emin a nd Aras . 20 refere nc es t o Emin Agalarov a nd Ar as Agalarov , 21 corr e ct? I b e li eve you c l arified this i n your These are 22 A . That i s co rrec t. 23 Q. The first e - mail in t his chain 24 chronol ogi cally stat es it was se nt fr om 25 Mr. Gol dsto ne t o you at 10 : 36 a . m. o n June 3 , 2016 . 23 1 It states that the Crown prosecutor of Ru ssi a met 2 wi th Aras a nd o ff ered t o prov i de the Trump campai gn 3 wi th some of f icial documents and information that 4 would incri minate Hil lary i n her de a li ngs wit h 5 Russia a nd wou l d be very useful 6 Was this e - mail the first occasion in which 7 Mr . Golds t o ne rel ayed to you thi s purported o ff er 8 to provide your father ' s campaign this information ? 9 t o your father . A. Yes , I bel i eve it was . 10 Q. Mr . Goldstone ' s e - mail states , in part, 11 "T his is obvi ously very high l eve l and s ensit i ve 12 info rma ti on b ut i s part of Russia a nd it s 13 government ' s support f or Mr . Trump , he l ped along by 14 Aras and a min u t e ." 15 Prior to t h is e - mail had you and 16 Mr . Goldstone ever communicated about this topic , 17 Ru ss ian government support for your fat her? 18 A . No , we had no t. 19 Q. Your response e - mai l doesn ' t question his 20 assertion that t he Russian governme nt was 21 s upporting your father . 22 r easo n to beli eve t h at the Russi an government 23 supported t hen Candi dat e Trump? At the time did you have 24 A . I did not . 25 Q. Mr . Go ldstone ' s e - mail s s tat es "What d o 24 1 you t hin k i s the bes t way to ha n d l e th is 2 in formation a n d woul d you be abl e to speak to Emin 3 about it directly? 4 your f ather vi a Rho n a , but i t i s ul t r asensi t i ve . 5 So wanted to send to you first ." 6 I can also send this info t o As f ar as you know, was he referring t o 7 Rh ona Gra ff, an execut i ve vi ce pres i dent at the 8 Trump Organizat i on , an assistant t o your father? 9 A. I believe so , yes . 10 Q. To the best of your knowl edge , when 11 Mr . Gol dstone expressed this reluctance to send 12 t h is ultrasen sitive information to your fat h er via 13 Ms . Graff , was t hat a r e luctance t o share the 14 i n formation with your fat h er himself or a 15 reluctan ce to use Ms. Gr aff as intermediary to 16 share it with your fath er ? 17 explai n or how did you i n terpret the statement at 18 the time ? Did Mr . Goldstone ever 19 A . I don 't know . 20 Q. According to t he document , you repl ied to 21 Mr . Gol dstone a t 10 : 53 on June 3 , 2016 stating 22 " Thanks , Rob . 23 at t he moment, but perhaps I could speak to Emin 24 first . 25 you say , I l ove it , especi al l y l ater i n t he summer . I appreci ate t hat . I am o n the r oad See ms we have some t ime and if it ' s what 25 1 Co ul d we d o a call fir s t t hi ng when I am back?" 2 3 What d i d yo u mean when yo u wr o t e tha t you " love it , especi ally l ater in the summer "? A . As I sai d i n my s t a t ement, I had no way o f 4 5 gaugi ng t he credi bili ty of thi s , i f i t was e ve n 6 real . 7 conve nti on a nd t he poss i bilit y o f a cont est e d 8 convention . 9 a rus h t o act on . 10 11 We had b igger fi sh t o fr y wi t h the So t hi s wasn 't some t hi ng that I was i n Q. And why di d you want to t a l k to Emi n fi rst ? 12 A . Becau s e I h ad no i dea what t o make o f 13 th i s . 14 g u y , yo u know , t abl o i d j o u rnali s t turned p r omo t er . 15 So I wanted t o s e e if there was anyt hi ng t o it. 16 Q. The e - mai l chain then shows that I knew of Rob as , agai n , a rather colorful 17 Mr . Gol ds t o ne e - mail ed yo u again on Mond ay , J une 6 , 18 2016 attempting t o a r range a cal l wi t h Emin and at 19 1 5 : 03 that day , 3: 03 p . m., y ou responded asking i f 20 Emin coul d speak wit h you t hen. 21 e - mai ls Mr . Go l dstone stated at 3 : 43 p . m. that Emin 22 i s " On s t age i n Moscow b ut should be o ff wit hi n 20 23 mi nutes , so I' m sure can cal l." 24 25 Aft e r a f ew (DTJR Exhi bi t 2 was marked for i d ent ifi cati o n. ) 26 1 BY MR . DAVI S : 2 Q . I'd like you t o take a l ook at the 3 document Ba te s - stamped DJTJR- 00855 , which I' ll 4 l abel Exhibit 2 . 5 though , as we'll return to it momentarily . 6 Pl ease keep Exhibit 1 nearby, Exhi b it 2 is an 1111 record for your 7 i Phone wit h the Trump Organiz at i on ; i s t hat 8 correct ? 9 A. I believe it is , yes . 10 Q. So in Exhibit 1 Mr . Goldstone ' s e - mail at 11 3 : 43 p . m. on J une 6 said that Emin wou l d call you 12 wit hi n about 20 minut es , and this 13 which is heavily redact ed , shows an incoming call 14 21 mi nutes l ater a t 4:04 p . m. o n t hat day fr om the 15 number 1111 record , Was that a cal l from Emin? 16 A . I believe it t o be . 17 Q . According t o the document, the call lasted 18 two minu t es . 19 of t hat call ? 20 Do you have any memo r y o f the conten t A . I don't. And in researchi ng this we went Two mi nutes i s 21 to check with the phone company . 22 a nyt hing over 60 seconds. 23 seconds and t wo minu t es , which is why I wasn ' t sure 24 if it was a call or j ust a voicemail and a mi ssed 25 ca ll pl aying phone tag. So i t ' s bet wee n 60 27 1 Q. Accor d i ng t o the doc ument, 25 minut es 2 after the fir s t call ended yo u made a n outgo i ng 3 call t o t hat same number , but in be t ween the two 4 ca ll s there ' s ano ther e nt ry, a call a t 4 : 27 t hat 5 lasted four minut es from a b l ocked number . 6 Emin ' s call t o you a t 4 : 04 and your return call to 7 hi m a t 4 : 31, wit h wh om d i d yo u h ave a call ? Be t ween 8 A . I have no i dea . 9 Q. Othe r t han t hat call , do you r ecall what 10 you did during t he 25 minutes be t ween tho se calls? 11 A . I don 't. 12 Q. I t appears fr om this r ecord that a ft er 13 your call with t he b l ocked number e nde d you called 14 Emin back . 15 th ree mi nut es according t o t he document. 16 recal l that ca l l at a l l ? 17 A . I do no t. 18 Q. And , again , accordi ng to t his exhibit on Th a t cal l t o Emi n at 4 : 31 p . m. l as t ed Do yo u 19 the next day , June 7 , 201 6 , you received an 20 incoming call f rom t hat same number at 12 :4 4 p . m. 21 which l as t ed two minutes . 22 cont e nt s o f tha t cal l? Do you r ecall the 23 A . I do no t. 24 Q. The documen t a l so shows t hat a t 25 4 : 07 p . m. o n June 7 , 2016 you p l aced a call t o 703 --1111111111111. 28 1 Who was tha t call to? 2 A . I don 't know . 3 Q. Do you recall the contents of it , then? 4 A. No , I don 't. 5 Q. Returning t o Exhibit 1 , a few hours after 6 your call with Emin and a few minut es a fter your 7 ca ll to tha t 703 number you r ece i ved an e - ma i l from 8 Mr . Goldst one a t 4 : 20 p . m. in whi c h he wrote " Emin 9 asked that I schedule a meeting wit h you a nd t he 10 Russian government attorney who is flying ov er from 11 Moscow f o r this Thursday . 12 of t he meeting and so wondered if 3 : 00 p . m. o r 13 lat er on Thurs day works for you ? 14 be a t your office. " 15 16 I bel i eve you are aware I a ssume it would Was this assumpti on correct , by that poi n t had you already discuss ed having the meeting? 17 A . No t t hat I recall , no . 18 Q. And I believe you noted i n your sta t ement 19 that Mr . Goldstone said he would send the names of 20 the two people me e ti ng wit h you l a t er that d ay , but 21 am I correct y o u ' re saying he neve r did send them? 22 A . Correct . 23 Q. Prior t o t he meet ing on J une 9 , 20 16 who 24 did you t ell about the mee ting or about 25 Mr . Gol dsto ne ' s underlying o ffer to pass a l ong 29 1 2 3 informat i on fr om Russia? A. I belie ve only Jared Kushner and Paul Mana fort, I made them aware of i t. 4 Q. Was there anyo ne e l se? 5 A. No , no t to my recol l ect i on . 6 Q. Did you inform your f ather about t he 7 meeti ng or the underlying o ff er pri o r to the 8 meeting? 9 10 A. No, I did n o t. Q. Regarding the people you did tell about 11 the meet i ng before hand , what did you tell them was 12 the purpose of the meet ing? 13 A . I don 't even know i f I t o ld them that as 14 covered in my s t atement. 15 e - mai l and asked if t hey could atte nd . 16 I belie ve I s ent t hem t h e Q. And how did you communicate wit h each of 17 t h e people, Mr. Manafort and Mr. Kushne r , about t h e 18 mee ti ng beforehand? 19 phone cal ls? 20 21 22 Was it via e - mai l or were there A . I o nl y recall e -mail , but I may have had a conversa ti on briefly. Q. Looki ng back a t Exhibi t 1, the first page 23 includes an e - mail from you to Manafort at 24 1 2 : 02 p . m. on June 8 , 201 6 stating that the meeting 25 had been moved t o 4 : 00 t omorrow at your o ffi ce , to 30 1 whi ch Mr . Mana f ort r epl i ed " See you then ." 2 t h an t hi s e - mai l c hain involv ing Mr . Go l dstone , 3 you , and Mr . Manafor t, did yo u send or r eceive any 4 e - mai l s be f o r e the June 9th meet i ng about i t? 5 A . No t that I recall , no . 6 Q. What is your understanding of 7 Mr . Gol dsto ne ' s work? 8 9 A . He ' s a music manager and I guess former tablo i d j ournalist . 10 11 Other Q. Has the Trump Organization ever paid Mr . Gol dstone for work he conducted? 12 A. Not that I ' m aware o f, no. 13 Q. What is your understanding of 14 Mr . Gol dsto ne ' s ties with the Ru ssian government , 15 wh ether direct or i n direct , past or p r ese n t? 16 A . I ' m no t aware of any . 17 ( DTJR Exhibit 3 was marked for 18 19 identification . ) BY MR . DAVIS : 20 Q. I ' d like you to take a look at this e - mail 21 chain which I ' ll labe l Exhibit 3 . This document is 22 Bates- stamped DJTJR- 00893 . 23 between Mr . Goldstone and Rhona Graff from July 24 2015 . 25 fi rst e - mai l chro no l ogical ly i s f rom Mr . Gol ds t o ne Thi s is a n e - mai l c ha i n You are not listed as a r ecipient . The 31 1 to Ms . Gra ff on Jul y 22 , 201 5 a n d states , in part , 2 " Emi n has a n e - mail i nv i te f or Mr . Trump to at t e nd 3 his father ' s 60 t h birthday in Moscow on 4 November 8 ." 5 201 5 sta t ing , in part , "I wi ll certain l y make 6 Mr . Trump aware of t his invitation and I 7 will be hono r ed t ha t Emin tho ug ht of h im . 8 given his presidenti a l campaign i t ' s highly 9 un likely that he would have time on hi s cal endar to Ms . Gr a ff respo nded back on J uly 24 , know he However , 10 go to Moscow in Novembe r ." 11 on that same day stating , in par t, " I total l y 12 understand re Moscow , unl ess mayb e he woul d welcome 13 a meeting with President Putin which Emin would se t 14 u p ." 15 Mr . Goldstone repli es Were you aware of thi s supposed of f er by 16 Mr . Goldstone to arrange via Emin a mee t ing be t ween 17 Mr . Putin a nd your father? 18 A . Only in prepara tion for this testimony . 19 Q. Other t han this e - mail chain and the 20 c i rcumstances leading up t o t he June 9 , 2016 21 mee t ing , are you awa r e of any other ins t ances in 22 wh ich Mr . Gol ds t o ne sought to arrange meet in gs 23 between Russian government of f icials and the Trump 24 campaign? 25 A . No ne that I can recall, no . 32 1 Q. What was your understanding o f 2 Mr. Gol dsto ne ' s rel a ti o n s hip t o t he n Candi date 3 Trump? 4 A . Mr . Go lds tone ' s ? 5 Q. Yes . 6 A . Ot her t han I believe they had met a t Miss 7 Uni ve r se , I' m no t aware of any re l a tio nshi p between 8 Candidate Trump and Mr . Go l ds t one . 9 10 Q. Ar e you aware o f any r elation shi p be t ween the t wo o f them since he ' s become Pres ident ? 11 A. No , I' m not. 12 Q. And I beli eve you s t ated you fir st me t 13 Emi n Agalarov a t an event , d id you say , i n 14 Fl ori da? 15 A. Yes . I beli eve that was the fir st time we 16 met f ace t o fa ce . 17 a n d f o rt h by phone or e-mai l be fore ha n d because I 18 know we were l oo king a t a p o tential d eal in Moscow 19 be f ore that. 20 21 22 I don ' t know if we had gone back Q. How would y o u descri be your rel at io nshi p wi th him? A . We ' ve met face to f ace t wo o r t hree 23 occasions and we looked a t a deal once . 24 acquaintance . 25 So casual Q. Wo ul d you say i t ' s primarily a bus i ness 33 1 acquaint ance , person a l 2 of the two? 3 4 A . All of our dealings have been bu s i ness rel a ted. Q . Can you descri be the project s i n wh i ch the 5 6 a cqua intance, or a mixture Trump Organi za tion has worked wi t h him? A. We ll, it was the Mi ss Uni ver se Pageant. 7 8 That was the only deal 9 l ooked at a real est a te deal that was in close that ever occurred . Then we 10 p r o ximity to the Crocus City Hall that I mentioned 11 in my opening statement , whi ch would have been a 12 residenti a l 13 some retail components as a Trump-branded property . tower still to be desig n ed with maybe Q . Are t here any ot h er projects in whi ch the 14 15 Trump Organization h as s ough t to wor k wit h him b u t 16 which have not yet come to fruition? 17 A . No, n ot t h at I recall . 18 Q . What is you r understanding of Emin's ti es 19 to t he Russian government? 20 A . I 'm n ot aware of specific tie s . 21 Q . Ar e you awa r e of any -- 22 MR. FOSTER : 23 MR . TRUMP : 24 25 Are you awar e o f general I' m not aware of official ti es , no . MR. FOSTER : ties? Any ties? 34 1 MR. TRUMP : 2 that ' s it. 3 BY MR . DAVIS: 4 I wo uld only speculate, but Q. Ar e you awa r e of o t her i nstances in whi c h 5 Emin sought t o a rrange mee ti ngs between t he Trump 6 c ampaign and Russian government officials ? 7 A. I'm n o t awa r e of tha t. 8 Q. And how do you know hi s father Aras 9 10 11 Aga l arov? A . I don 't. I' ve never me t Aras , to my re co ll ec ti on . 12 (DTJR Exhibit 4 was marked for 13 14 15 ident ifi c ation .) BY MR . DAVIS : Q. I ' d like you t o take a look a t a n e -mail 16 and a t tachment Bates - s tamped DJTJR- 00442 and it s 17 a tt achment whi ch i s 443 . 18 A . Thank you . 19 Q. This e - mai l Thi s i s Exhibit 4. is from Mr . Go ldstone t o you 20 a nd Rho n a Graff sent on Februar y 29, 2016. The 21 e -ma il s tat es , i n pa rt, "Emi n ' s father has asked me 22 to pass o n hi s co ngratul a ti ons in a l e tter encl osed 23 below for Mr . Trump on the eve of Super Tuesday 24 vo t e , offe ring his support and that of many o f his 25 import a nt Ru ss i an frien ds and colleagues, 35 1 especially wit h r e f e r ence t o U. S . /Ru ss i an 2 r e lati o n s ." 3 The at t ached l et t er fr om Aras s t a t es , in 4 pa rt, "Alongsi de wit h man y people in t hi s country 5 who appreciat ed your statement that U. S . and Russi a 6 should work t oge t her mo r e closely, all of us a t 7 Crocus Gr oup f o llow with great i nteres t your b right 8 electora l campaign . 9 Su pe r Tuesday we would li ke to wi sh you s uccess in On the eve of forthcoming 10 winni ng t his major ball ot and further rein f orcing 11 your undisput ed stat us as the frontrunner for t he 12 Republi can nomi natio n for U.S. pre s i dential 13 e l ection ." 14 When you r ece ived t hi s e-mail fr om 15 Mr . Golds t o ne referri ng t o t he support o f Aras a nd 16 hi s many -- and many of hi s i mportant Russia n 17 fri ends , how d id you i nt e r pre t that s t a t ement? 18 19 20 21 A . I don 't remember get ti ng i t , but I woul d have i nterpreted it as casual congrat u l ations . Q. And d id you vi ew t hi s message as general We ll-wishi ng or some t hing more concrete? 22 A . Ge ne ral well-wi s hi ng . 23 Q. Returning t o Exhibit 1, Mr . Goldsto ne 24 reference d the Crown prosecutor of Russ i a as being 25 t h e sour ce o ffering t he incrimina ting informati o n 36 1 about Hill a ry Clint on a n d he lat er s tat ed the 2 mee ting wo uld be wit h a Ru ss i a n govern ment 3 a tt orney . 4 meeti n g with a l aw en f o r ceme n t o ffi c ial fr om Ru ssi a 5 about cr i mina l evidence regarding Hill ary Clint on ? 6 7 8 9 Did you be li eve t hat you would be A . I di d not know who I was going t o be meeti n g with. Q. So prior to the meet i ng did you have any r easo n to b e li eve t h a t t h ere wou ld be anyone 10 a tt ending who had ti es to Russian int e lli gence 11 serv i ce or had material s obtai ned through espi onage 12 r a t he r than c ri mi n a l 13 sources ? i nves ti gat i ons o r o the r 14 A . I d i d not . 15 Q. I ' d like to t u rn now to t he actual meet ing 16 on J une 9 , 201 6 . Di d anyone at t he mee ti ng o f f e r 17 to re l ease h acked e - mail s t o aid t he Trump 18 campaign? 19 A . No . 20 Q. Di d a nyo n e o ff er t o man ufacture a n d 21 dis t ribut e f ake news to aid the Trump campaign? 22 A. No . 23 Q. Did anyone o ff er t o hack state vot er 24 registra ti on sys t ems to ob t a in vo t e r dat a t o a id 25 t h e Trump campai g n ? 37 1 A. No . 2 Q. Was t here any d i scussion o f anythin g tha t 3 might reasonably be considered collusion bet ween 4 the Trump campai g n and the Russi an government? 5 A . No . 6 Q. Mr . Goldsto ne ' s prior e - mail said he would 7 be bringing t wo people to mee t with you a nd t hat 8 af t er br i ngi ng t hem to the meeting he would not s it 9 in. 10 mee ti ng , t o the best of your r e collection? 11 12 How many peopl e did he act ually bring t o the A. To t he best of my recol l ect i on , he brought f our people , i ncl udi ng himse lf. 13 Q. Did he explai n th is di screpancy be t ween 14 wh a t he t old you he wo uld do and what 15 did? he act uall y 16 A. No t that I recal l. 17 Q. Di d Mr . Golds tone stay for the meeti ng 18 itse lf, cont rary t o his p ri or r e presentati o n to you ? 19 A. Yes , he did . 20 Q. Who e l se a tte nded t he June 9t h meeti ng in 21 New York Ci ty a t Trump Tower? 22 who was present for any porti o n o f the meeting , 23 however briefly, even if they did not a tt end the 24 en ti re mee ting? 25 Please li st anyone A. Jared Kushne r , Paul Ma n a f o rt, myself , the 38 1 f e ma l e l awyer, I beli e v e I me nti oned Irakl y 2 Kave l adz e , Mr. Go l ds t one , and the tra n s l ato r, tha t 3 I recall . 4 h ave s aid the r e was an e i ght h pe r so n. 5 remember . 6 7 As I ment ioned in my s t a t ement, people Q . Yo u don ' t I jus t c an't recall Rinat Akhmetshin be i ng a t the meeti ng? 8 A. I' v e heard the name . 9 Q . We r e al l o f t he a tt e n dee s int r o duced? 10 11 A . I don 't recal l , but MR . FOSTER : I imagi ne t hat' s Le t me j us t 13 you heard t hat name . 14 n ame s ince -- 15 MR . TRUMP : 16 the press repor t 17 MR. FOSTER : 18 MR. TRUMP: 19 no . 20 BY MR . DAVI S : 22 recall n ow . l i ke l y . 12 21 I don ' t f o ll ow up . You said You mean you ' ve heard t hat I' ve h eard tha t name as pa rt o f At the time you h ad no t . Ye ah . Q . To t he best At the time I had no i dea , of you r r eco ll e c t i on how was Ms . Vese l n it s kaya int rodu ced? 23 A . As a l awyer . 24 Q . Di d she or any other at t endee claim that 25 s h e was a Ru ss i an government l awy er? 39 1 A. She did n o t. 2 Q. Mr . Go ldstone ' s e - mail stated you woul d be 3 mee ti ng wi t h a Russi an governmen t a tt orney . Did he 4 expl a in t h i s discrepancy? 5 A . He did not . 6 Q. Did you ask him? 7 A. I didn't. 8 Q. If not , why not? 9 A. I think because it became pre tt y apparent 10 that this wasn 't going anywhere and we were all 11 looking t o get back to our dai ly lives . 12 Q. Had you ever communicated wit h 13 Ms . Veselnitskaya prior to that meet i ng? 14 A . No t to my knowledge, n o . 15 Q. Did it appear that a nyo ne e l se in t he 16 meet i ng fr om the Trump campai gn had ever prev i ously 17 int eracted wit h her? 18 A. It did not . 19 Q. You ' ve stated you have no recollection of 20 Mr . Akhmet s hin a tt e ndi ng t he meeting . Were you 21 awar e a t 22 Ms. Vese lnit skaya were worki ng wit h Fusion GPS? the time that Mr . Akhme t shin and 23 A . I was not aware of that . 24 Q. We re you aware that Mr. Akhmetshin had a 25 l ong relationship wit h Gl enn Simpson, t he founder 40 1 2 3 of Fusi on GPS? A . I had never heard o f Gl enn Simpson or Fusion GPS . I was not aware of it . 4 Q. So I ass ume , the n, wer e you aware tha t 5 employee s and subcontractors of Fusion GP S were 6 also working on oppos it ion research on your father 7 a t t he time? 8 9 10 A . I' ve read that s i nce , but I was not aware at t he time . Q. We re you aware that Fu s i on GPS was behind 11 information presented t o you rega rding Bill Browder 12 a n d the Magnit sky Act? 13 A . I was not . 14 Q. Were you aware that Mr . Simpson fr om 15 Fusion GPS had dined wit h Ms . Vesel nit skaya t he 16 night before your meeting , had met with her the day 17 o f, a nd dined wi th h er again the night a ft e r your 18 mee ting ? 19 A . I was not . 20 Q. Do you recall how Mr . Samochornov was 21 introduce d? 22 A . I don't r ecall him being introd uced . 23 Q. Did he say what t ype of business he was in 24 25 or who he worked f o r? A . Not t hat I recall, no . 41 1 2 Q. Did h e or any ot h er attendee claim that h e was working for the Russian government? 3 A . No. 4 Q. Had you ever communicated wit h h im prior 5 to the meeting? 6 A . Not to my knowledge , no . 7 Q. Did it appear that anyone e l se in the 8 meeting fr om the Trump campaign had ever previously 9 interacted wit h him? 10 A . It did not . 11 Q. How was Mr . Kaveladze introduced? 12 A. He was introduce d -- I actually don't 13 remember how he was introduced . 14 Q. And did you previously know Mr. Kaveladze? 15 A. I had prev i ously communica ted wit h him , 16 though I was not aware at the time , apparently he 17 goes b y the name Ike informally. 18 communicated with Ike when we were looking at the 19 real estate d eal, but I didn 't realize that Ike was 20 s ho rt for Irakly. 21 Ri c hard connect ion toge ther there . 22 know a n d I was not aware that I had communi cated 23 with him before . 24 25 So I had I didn't kind of put the Dick/ So I did not Q. And at the meeting what did you unders tand hi s busine ss to be? 42 1 A. I don't recall. 2 Q. Di d you -- did he s t a t e f or whom he 3 4 5 6 worked? A. No t t hat I remember, b ut he wo rks f o r Crocus . Q. Were you aware a t t he time of the meeting 7 tha t he , among o the r s , was lin ked t o a gover nme nt 8 inquiry i n the early 2000s i nto possib l e money 9 l aunderi ng by U.S. co rpora ti o n s f ormed f or Russian 10 11 12 13 14 entities? A . I d id not know that as I d id no t know anyone who was coming into t he room . Q. Did any o f the attendees c lai m to be working for the Ru ssian government? 15 A. No . 16 Q. You ' ve already prov ided a descripti on of 17 the meeting . 18 about the content. 19 co ll eagues mention Bill Browder? I do h ave a f ew speci fi c questi ons Did Ms . Vese l nitskaya o r her 20 A . No t t hat I remember. 21 Q. Did they mention the Magnitsky Act ? 22 A. Yes , t hey did . 23 Q. And d i d they discuss Russia ' s ban on U.S. 24 adoption of Ru ssian chil d r en which was a respo n se 25 to the Magnit sky Act? 43 1 A . Yes , t hey d i d . 2 Q . Di d t hey ask that yo ur f a the r t ake any 3 ac t ion regarding the Magni ts ky Act or the global 4 Magnit s ky Act if e l ect ed? 5 A. No t 6 Q. Did they ask any 7 MR. FOSTER : 8 specifi cally tha t I re call. Do you have a ge n e r a l re co ll ec ti on ? 9 MR . TRUMP : I t hi n k it was clear that t hey 10 were against it , but we made them -- as I mentioned 11 in my stat ement , we made them aware t hat we were 12 pr i va t e citizens , t h is i s n't somet h ing we ' re do ing 13 about adopti on . 14 was not a campai g n i ssue and wasn 't going to be a 15 campai g n i ssue , wasn't some t h ing we we re t a l k i ng 16 about . 17 o n. 18 BY MR . DAVIS: 19 Whil e important t o many peopl e , So we sort of used t hat as the way t o move Q. Did anyone in the meeting mention the 20 Justice De part ment ' s l awsuit against Pre ve zon 21 Ho l d ings? 22 A . It sounds familiar, but I can't r ecall if 23 that' s some t hing tha t was ment ioned t here or if it 24 was some t h i ng that I' ve read about since . 25 Q . Did anyo n e at the meet i ng me nti o n, or were 44 1 you o the r wi se aware at the time , tha t 2 Ms . Vese lnit skaya i s t he l awyer representing 3 Prevezon Holdings and the Katsyv family? 4 A. I was no t aware of that a t the time . 5 Q. Were you aware at the t i me t hat Prevezon 6 Holdings is owned by a Russian businessman , Dennis 7 Katsyv, whose f a the r was a Russi an government 8 offi c ial? 9 A. I ' m n o t aware o f t ha t. 10 Q. We re you aware at the time that the U.S . 11 Depart ment of Justi ce had initiated a c i vil a sset 12 f or f e iture case agai ns t Preve zo n Holdings argui ng 13 that Prevezon received mi lli ons of dollar s of 14 l aundered money uncovered by Russian l awyer 15 Mr . Sergei Magnitsky? 16 A . No t that I recal l, no . 17 Q. Were you aware that Ms. Vesel nit skaya was 18 19 in court tha t day , before the June 9th meeting? A . I bel i eve the e - mai l stated something to 20 that e ffe c t o r t hat she was in there t hat day, but 21 I do not know that t o be a fact. 22 Q. Did Ms . Vese lnit skaya or her col l eagues 23 ask that your father take any ac t ion regarding the 24 Ju s tice Department ' s l awsu it aga i nst Prev ezon 25 Holding s if e lected? 45 1 A . No t t hat I remember . 2 Q . Si n ce news o f thi s meeting b r oke t h ere 3 have been severa l news article s d e t ailing e ff orts 4 by t h i s same group t o lobby o n Capit o l 5 overturn the Magnitsky Ac t a round the s a me time 6 they met with you . 7 the ant i-Ma g nit sky p it c h Mr . Akh me t s hi n a n d 8 Ms . Vese l n it skaya were pus hing on Capit o l Hill? 9 Hill t o Ha ve you seen news accounts of A. Si n ce the n, ye s , I have . 10 Q. Do those news acco u n t s of the ir lobbying 11 p it ch on Capi to l Hill generall y match the 12 info rma ti on they p itched to you in your meeting? 13 A . Agai n , I don 't r e member much f r om the 14 meeti n g because I didn ' t give it much creden c e at 15 the time , but general ly speaking , it sounds f a irly 16 familiar . 17 18 Q . Did Ms . Vese l n it skaya or her col l eagues mention support of the DNC or RNC? 19 20 A . I bel i eve they menti oned support of the DNC . 21 Q. Can y o u e l abo r a te on the context? 22 A . It generall y s tarted ou t as peopl e wi th, I 'm 23 you know , perhaps general interest i n Rus s i a . 24 n o t sure if they were U . S . or Russi a n bas ed , but 25 b u s iness peopl e wh o were supporters o f t he DNC a n d 46 1 perhaps Hill ary Clint on were in some so rt o f t a x 2 scheme to avoi d payi ng t axes in bot h t he Unit ed 3 Stat es and Russia . MR. FOSTER : 4 5 Di d s he provide a ny names o f wh o these people were ? MR . TRUMP : 6 No t t hat I remember . It was 7 f a i rly j umbl ed and d i dn 't reall y seem a ll tha t 8 relevant t o me . 9 have . 10 11 So I don 't reca ll, but she may BY MR . DAVIS : Q . What, i f anythi ng , d id Ms . Veselnitskaya 12 a nd her colleagues o ffe r you o r the Tr ump campai g n 13 during this mee t ing ? 14 A . No thi ng . 15 Q. What, if a nything, d i d they ask of you or 16 the Trump campaign ? 17 A . No thi ng . 18 Q . Ot her t han what we ' ve already d i scussed , 19 20 what other topics were discussed a t the meeti ng ? A . As I said , it started o ff wit h tha t s ort 21 of t a x scheme and , y ou know, quickly migrated t o 22 Ru ss i a n adopti on a nd ultima tely t he Magnit s ky Act . 23 That' s really the ex t ent of it. 24 25 Q . What was Ms . Vese l nit skaya ' s ro l e in t he mee ting? Di d she , t hrough he r transl a t or , do most o f 47 1 the talking for her s ide? 2 A . Yes . 3 Q. What was Mr . Kaveladze ' s role duri ng the 4 meeting? 5 A. I don 't reca ll hi m doi ng any t a lki ng . 6 Q. Did Mr . Samochornov do anyt hing a t 7 t he meeting o the r t han transl a te? 8 A. No t that I recall , no . 9 Q. And what was Mr. Go lds tone's rol e duri ng 10 11 the meeting ? A. He had none, he just sa t i n . 12 (DTJR Exhibit 5 was marked for 13 14 15 ident ifi c ation .) BY MR . DAVIS : Q. I ' d like you t o take a look a t a not her 16 e - mail c hain . 17 DJ TJR- 004 54 256 . This is one t hat ' s Bates - numbered It will be labe led Exhibit 5 . 18 A . Thank yo u. 19 Q. This is an e - mai l from Mr . Goldstone t o 20 Dan Scavino , copying you , Rho na Gra ff, and 21 Kons tantin Sidorkov . 22 It s t a te s , in part , " Dan, I am f o ll owi ng u p an 23 e - mail a while b ack o f some t hing I had menti oned t o 24 Don and Paul Manafo rt during a mee t recently . 25 There a re beli eved t o be around 2 milli o n It was sen t on J une 29 , 201 6 . 48 1 Russian-Ameri can vot e r s li vi ng i n the USA a nd more 2 t h an 1.6 mi lli on of t hese use the Ru ss i an 3 ' Facebook ' s i te V Kontakte " -- K- 0 - N- T- A- K-T- E 4 "VK as t he i r p referr ed soc i a l medi a outlet . 5 mentioned to you guys t hrough Emi n and my c ont act 6 a t VK , they want to create a Vote Trump 201 6 7 promot i on a ired directly a t these u sers, people wh o 8 will be vot i ng i n November . 9 sa id he woul d welcome it. As I At t he ti me Pau l had So I had the VK f o lks 10 mock up a ba sic sample page which I am re sending 11 for your approval now ." 12 To the best o f your recollectio n, did 13 Mr . Goldstone discuss his VK proposal with you and 14 Mr . Mana fort duri ng t he June 9 , 201 6 meeting? 15 A. No , n o t that I reca ll. 16 Q. Do you reca ll discussing it wit h him at 17 18 19 20 21 a n y o ther meeti ng? A . I recall see ing the e-ma il s in preparation for thi s , b ut , agai n , I didn ' t give it much . Q. To the best o f your knowledge , did t he Trump campaign ever pursue t his ? 22 A . I don't beli eve they d id. 23 Q. So returning t o the meeting , what did 24 Mr . Kushne r d o during t he mee ti ng? 25 q ue s ti o n s o r make any comme n t s? Did he ask any 49 1 A. No ne tha t I reca ll. He showed up a fe w 2 minutes l a te and left a fe w minutes early to t ake a 3 phone call . 4 Q. What did Mr. Manafort do during the 5 meeting? 6 c omme nts ? 7 8 9 Did he ask any ques tions or make any A. Again, none t hat I reca ll, but I believe he was on his phone a s well . Q. Did you t ake any notes at the me e ting? 10 A . I didn ' t, no . 11 Q. Did anyone e ls e as far a s you could tell? 12 A. Not that I recall, no . 13 Q. You may hav e addressed t his i n your 14 opening s t a t e ment , but d i d any of the a tt e ndees 15 br i ng a ny documents t o the meeting? 16 A . No ne that I remember , no . 17 Q. To the best of your knowledge , wha t 18 19 time did the mee ting b e gin a nd when did it end ? A . Approximately 4: 00 p . m., p l us or minus 20 maybe some tardiness , and it las ted, to the best of 21 my r ecollection , 20 minutes , maybe 30 . 22 the s horter e nd of t hat spectrum . Probably on 23 Q. And how did the mee ting conclude ? 24 A. We went our s e parate ways a nd Rob 25 Golds tone came up to me and apologized. 50 1 Q. Did a ny a tte ndee reques t a dditiona l 2 mee ting s or communi cati o n s with you o r any member 3 of t he Trump campai gn ? 4 A. No , t hey did not. 5 MR . FOST ER : Can you tell us the best you can 6 the exac t words o f his apology , Mr . Goldstone ' s 7 apo l ogy? 8 9 MR . TRUMP : Esse n tia lly he apol ogi zed for wh a t h e beli eved was wasting our time . 10 MR . FOST ER : 11 MR . TRUMP : You don 't r e call anything else ? It was s i mpl y that I thi nk . You 12 know, based o n h i s i nitial e - mail t o me a nd what 13 the meet i ng t urned out to b e , there was a pret t y 14 s ubstanti a l delta there. 15 interp r e ted hi s apol ogy t o be . 16 BY MR . DAVIS : So that' s wh a t I 17 Q. So to recap a f ew t h ing s , Mr. Go l ds t one 18 t o l d you he was bringing two peopl e t o meet with 19 you , he brough t more . 20 s t ay for t he meeting, he did . 21 you ' d be meeti ng wi th a Ru ss i an government 22 a tt orney , but she was not , at l east n o t overtly. 23 And he told you they had ul t rasensitive information 24 that would incriminate Hillary Cli nton and her 25 deali n gs with Russi a , but i ns t ead yo u say they He t o ld you he would no t He t o l d you t hat 51 1 o ff e r ed some g ene r a l t a x scheme i n f o r mati o n and 2 d i scussed the Magnit sky Ac t, acco r ding t o yo ur 3 account . 4 Was t hi s so rt o f di scon nect be t ween what 5 Mr . Gol d st one promi sed and what he actual ly 6 deliver ed char act eri st i c of Mr. Gol d stone as f a r as 7 yo u k new? 8 9 A. Agai n , unde rs t andi ng hi s background, perhaps , b ut I do n't know t ha t I know him we ll 10 enough to make t hat assump t ion . 11 enough t i me wi th hi m to be abl e t o know fo r sure . 12 Q. Do you thin k that he d u ped you into t hi s I haven ' t spent 13 mee ti ng under f a l se pretenses he t hought wou l d grab 14 yo ur a t t e nti o n? 15 16 17 A. I i magi ne t here was a n el e me nt o f showmanshi p i nvo l ved, yes . Q. Since t he J une 9t h meet i ng have you had 18 any a ddi ti onal meetings or commu ni cati ons wi t h 19 Ms . Veselnit skaya , Mr . Akhme t shin , Mr . Kaveladz e , 20 o r Mr . Samochorno v? 21 A . No , none that I recall. 22 Q. Aft e r t he mee ting but pri o r t o the ne ws o f 23 i t breaking t h i s s ummer , d id you discuss the 24 mee ti ng wit h anyone ? 25 A. No , I di d n o t. 52 Q. Di d you d i scuss the Prevezon Ho l d in gs case 1 2 or the Magnitsky Act with anybody duri ng t hat time 3 fr ame? 4 5 A . I wouldn 't have even remembered those th ings until I read about it i n the news . 6 Q. So at t he time what was your overall 7 assessment o f t he J u ne 9th meet i ng? 8 A. I rea lly didn ' t have much . 9 You know, coming out of it I didn 't wan t to give it a n ymo r e 10 time and didn ' t have any real thoughts on it a t 11 all . 12 (DTJR Ex hi bit 6 was marked f or 13 14 15 identification .) BY MR . DAVIS : Q. I ' d like to refer to t he e - mail c hain a nd 16 attachment Bates- numbered DJTJR- 00245 to 248 . 17 is an e - mai l sent o n November 28 , 2016 fr om 18 Mr . Gol dstone to Rhona Graff , wh i ch she then 19 forwarded to Steve Bannon . 20 part "Aras Agalarov has asked me t o pass o n t his 21 document in the hope it can be passed on to the 22 appropri a te team. 23 the case is in New York currently and happy t o meet 24 wi th any member of the transition team." 25 This Mr . Goldstone states i n If needed , a l awyer represent ing The at t ached doc ume n t begin s " One o f the 53 1 key issues ban ning real reset of relations between 2 the U .S. and Russia is the U. S . pos iti on on the 3 conti nued support of the Sergei Magnitsky Rule of 4 Law Accountabilit y Act of 2012." 5 claim that the existing understanding of 6 Mr . Magnitsky ' s death is wrong , t o cast aspersions 7 at Mr . Browder and Ziff brothers , c lai mi ng they 8 were some of the main sponsors of the Democrats . 9 It then also references Ms. Veselnitskaya ' s efforts 10 on Capitol Hill. 11 12 I'll give you a few moments to look over this docume nt. 13 14 It goes o n to (Witness reviewing document . ) BY THE WITNESS: 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. Do the contents of thi s document , other 17 than the references to events that happened after 18 your June 9 , 2016 meeting , track with the 19 information presented to you at that meeting? 20 A . Agai n, I don 't remember too many details 21 of it, but I think, generally speaking, yes , they 22 do . 23 recall specifically . 24 25 And Ziff brot hers sounds familiar, but I don't Q. We re you aware that Mr. Goldstone sent this document to the Trump Organization? 54 1 2 A. I o nly saw t hi s i n p r eparati on f or t hi s . So I was not , no . 3 Q. It appears Mr . Golds t one cont i nued hi s 4 a nti-Magnit s ky e ffort beyond your June 9 , 20 16 5 meeting . 6 any o t her ef f ort he made on thi s issue after your 7 meeti ng? Other t han this e - mai l , were you aware of 8 A. No t that I recall , no . 9 Q. Mr . Gol d stone o ffered t o have t he l awyer 10 represen ti ng the case meet wit h t he transiti on 11 team . 12 Do you know if such a mee ting ever occurred ? A. I do no t. 13 (DTJR Exhi bit 7 was marked for 14 15 i de ntifi cati on . ) BY MR . DAVI S : 16 Q. On J u l y 8th of th is year t he New York 17 Times broke the story about your J une 201 6 meeting . 18 I'll label the version of tha t articl e t hat i s 19 currently on the Times Website as Exhibit 7 . 20 ar ti c l e i ncluded t he f o ll owi ng passage . 21 Trump , J uni o r had deni ed par ticipating i n any 22 campai g n- re l a ted mee ting wit h Russian nati o n als 23 when he was interviewed by t he Times in March . 24 ' Di d I mee t with peopl e that were Russ i an ? 25 s ure. I'm s ure I d i d ,' he sai d , That " Donal d I'm ' but no ne t hat 55 1 were set up, n one that I can thi nk o f a t the 2 moment, and cert a inl y none that I was representing 3 the campaign in any way , shape , or form .'" MR. FUTERFAS: 4 5 What page are you reading from? 6 MR . DAVIS : 7 MR. FOSTER: 8 MR . FUTERFAS: 9 Sorry . It's the t hird page . Fourt h paragraph. Thank you very muc h . BY MR . DAVIS : 10 Q. "Aske d at that time whether he had e ver 11 disc ussed government po l i c ies related to Russi a , 12 the younger Mr. Trump replied 'A hundred percent 13 no .'" 14 15 Did the Times accurately quote your March statement to them? A . I do not know . 16 I imagine I was talking 17 about Russian government people , not Russian 18 nationa ls because I woul d have no way of knowing 19 how many people o f Russian descent that I would 20 have met along the campaign trail every day for two 21 years . 22 23 24 25 Q. So how do you square this account with what we now know about the June 9th mee t ing? A . I think it ' s accurate when I'm talking about Russian o ffi c i als . Again, I don't know how I 56 1 woul d kn ow if I met any Russian nat i o n als a l ong the 2 way . So I think that would be the d i screpan cy . 3 (DTJR Exhibit 8 and Exhibit 9 4 were marked f or 5 identifi c ation .) 6 7 BY MR . DAVIS: Q. So after the news o f the meeting b r oke you 8 issued a fe w different statements . 9 refer to them and ask you a few quest i ons. 10 I'd like to This will be Exhibit 8 . 11 On July 8th of this year you issued a "It was a s hort 12 statement abou t the meeti n g. 13 introduc t ory meeting . 14 stop by . 15 the adoptio n of Ru ssian c hil dren that was active 16 and popular with American families years ago and 17 was si nce e nded by the Ru ssian government , but it 18 was not a c ampaign issue at the time a nd there was 19 no follow- up . 20 a n acquaintance b ut was not told the n ame of the 21 person I would be mee ting with b e forehand." 22 I asked Jare d and Paul t o We primarily discussed a program about I was asked to at t end the meeting by On July 9th you i ssued a second statement 23 "I was asked to have a meeting by an acquain t ance I 24 knew from the 2013 Miss Universe Pageant with an 25 indi v i dual who I was told might have i n f ormatio n 57 1 h e l p ful t o the campai gn . I was no t t o ld h e r name 2 p ri or to t he meet ing . 3 a tt end but told t hem nothing of subst ance . I asked Jared and Paul t o We had a meet ing i n Jun e 201 6 . 4 After 5 pleasantries were exchanged the woman s t ated that 6 she had information t hat individuals connect ed to 7 Russia were fu nding t he Democrat i c Nati onal 8 Commit tee and supporting Ms . Cl i nt on . 9 stat ement s wer e vague , amb i guou s , a n d made n o 10 sense . 11 prov ided or even offered . 12 tha t s h e had n o meani ng ful information. 13 Her No detai l s or supporting information was It qu i ckly became c l ear She then changed subjec t s and began 14 d i scussi ng the adopti on o f Russi an c hildre n and 15 mentioned the Magnit sky Act. 16 that this was the true agenda all along and that 17 t h e c l a i ms o f p o t e nt ially he lpful i nformat i on were 18 a p r e t e xt f o r the meet i ng . 19 advised her that my father was not an elected 20 o ffi c i a l, but rather a pri vate c itize n, a n d t hat 21 her comment s and concerns were be tt er addressed if 22 a n d wh e n he h e ld p u bl i c office. 23 I t became clear t o me I interrupt e d a nd The mee t ing lasted appr oximately 20 to 30 24 minutes . As it ended , my acquaint ance apologized 25 f or t aki ng u p our t i me . That was the end o f it a n d 58 1 there was no further co nt act or f o ll ow-up o f any 2 kind. 3 these event s ." 4 My f at h er knew not hi ng o f the meet ing or On July 11th of this year you Tweeted a 5 vers ion of the e - mail chain sett i ng up t he mee ti ng 6 along wi t h a statement . 7 Thi s statement reads "T o everyon e , in order to be 8 totall y t ransparent I ' m releasing the entire e - mail 9 c h a i n of my e - mai l s with Rob Goldstone about t he This will be Exhibi t 9 . The first e - mail on 10 meeting on J une 9 , 2016 . 11 June 3 , 201 6 was from Rob who was rel at i ng a 12 request from Emin , a pe r son I knew from the 2013 13 Miss Universe Pageant near Moscow . 14 fat he r h ave a very hi ghl y respec t ed compan y i n 15 Moscow. 16 about Hillary Clinton I thought was political 17 opposition research. 18 Emin and his The i nformatio n they s u ggested they had I first wan t ed to just have a phone call, 19 but when that didn 't wo rk out they said the woman 20 would be in New York and asked if I would meet. 21 decided t o take the meeting . 22 sa id pub li c ly, was n ot a governme nt of fi c i a l and , 23 as we have said, she had no i nformation t o provide 24 and wanted to talk about adoption policy and the 25 Magnitsky Act . I The woman , as she has 59 To put this in context, this occurr ed 1 2 be f ore the c ur rent Russ i a fe ver was in vogue . 3 Rob Goldstone said j us t today in the press , 4 e ntire meet ing was the mos t inane non s ense I ever 5 heard and I was actua ll y agit ated by it.'" 6 7 8 9 As ' the Can you explain about h ow your statements about the meeting ev o lved? A. Wel l, I think they ' re all very c onsistent wit h each ot he r. Th e i ni ti a l s tatement was 10 discussing exactl y what the meeting was abou t. 11 ended up being a bout that . 12 wh a t got t hem i n to t he door a nd I didn't e x pand on 13 it because I d idn ' t 14 discu ss what t he meeting was not actually a b out 15 ev en if tha t ' s what t he e - mai l was . 16 questions were asked and more info rmation was 17 requested we released more i n for mation and we n t 18 int o great e r detail . 19 It did not talk a b o ut t hink it wa s re l evant to As more Q. The Washington Post ha s since reported 20 t h a t your father was i nvolved in drafting your 21 July 8th st a t ement . 22 23 It I s that correc t? A . I don't know . I never spoke t o my f a ther about it . 24 Q. Do you know who d i d draft tha t st a t eme nt? 25 A . We ll, t here were numerous s tatement s 60 1 dra ft ed with counsel and other peopl e were i nvo l ved 2 a nd, you know , opined . 3 Q. To the best of your knowledge , did t he 4 President provide a ny edit s to the s tatement or 5 other input? 6 A . He may have comme nted through Hope Hicks . 7 Q. And do you know if hi s comment s provided 8 through Hope Hicks were incorporated int o the final 9 statement? 10 11 12 13 14 A . I believe some may have been , but this was an effort through lots of peopl e , mostly counse l. Q. Did you ask him to provide a ny assi s t a nce with the statement? A . No . She asked if I want ed to actually 15 speak to him , and I chose no t to because I didn ' t 16 want to bring him into some thing that he had 17 nothi ng to do with . 18 19 Q. Do you know how many drafts of the s tatemen t were made? 20 A . We had a l onger version and a shorter 21 version and there were probably multiple iterations 22 of each of those. 23 Q. And do you know how many people worked on 24 the draft and who they were? 25 A. I don't know . 61 1 2 Q. Do you have copi es o f each d r a ft s t a t ement? 3 A . I don 't know . Counsel would . 4 Q. Di d yo u communi ca t e wit h a n y o f the o ther 5 part i c i pants in t he June 9 t h mee ti ng to discus s any 6 of your public s t a t ements ? 7 8 9 A. No t t hat I recall. I may have , but certai nly not before the f i rs t s t atement. Q. Mov ing o n, how would yo u c ha r act eri ze t he 10 Trump Organization ' s business relat ionships wit h 11 Russ i a ? 12 13 A. Othe r t han we ho s t ed t h e Mi ss Uni verse Pageant t here , t hey don ' t exi st . 14 Q. How many ti mes have yo u vi s it ed Russ i a? 15 A. I beli eve t he a n swe r i s f o ur , but it could 16 17 18 19 be four or five . Q. On those trips were yo u represent ing the Trump Organizat i on? A . On one of them I was giving a speech at a 20 hi gh- e nd Russi an real esta t e conference . 21 were looking at deals . 22 yes , but one was r eal l y r epresenti ng myse lf. 23 Th e o ther So in a round- about way , Q. And I believe you may have sa i d thi s in 24 your openi ng stat ement , but when was the las t t ime 25 you v i s it ed Russ i a? 62 1 A. I believe it was 2011. 2 Q . It's bee n reported that in l a te 2015 o r 3 2016 when now President Trump was running for 4 office t he Trump Organiza ti on was p ur suing a p lan 5 to develop a mas sive Trump Tower in Moscow. 6 that accurat e? 7 A. Yes . 8 Q . Did the fac t t hat now Pres ident 9 10 Is Trump was running a campaign a t the time affect t hat deve l opment i n any way? 11 A. I think not a t that stage , no , it had not . 12 Q . Has it s ince? 13 A . Yes . We've agreed not t o do any deals 14 int ernati onally because o f po t e nti a l con fli c t 15 i ssues . 16 17 18 Q. How would you descri be President Trump' s perso nal business associ a ti ons i n Ru ss i a ? A. Again , othe r t han casual one s we ' ve 19 discussed here , I don 't be li eve he has very many , 20 if any, o t her s . 21 Q. Do you have any reason t o beli eve tha t 22 your f ather e it he r during the campaign or as 23 Pres i den t has made any policy decisions wi t h 24 respect t o Russ i a based on any po t enti al bus i ness 25 deals with them in t he future ? 63 1 A . Absol u t e l y no t. 2 Q. Do you k n ow Se r gei Milli an? 3 A . No t that 4 Q. Ar e you awa r e of h i m h av i ng any ro l e in 5 I' m aware o f. the Trump campaign ? 6 A . No , I ' m not. 7 Q. Ha s h e had any ro l e at t he Tr ump 8 9 Orga nization , to the best of your knowl edge ? A. Not that I' m aware o f, no . 10 Q. Do you know Boris Epshteyn ? 11 A. Yes , I do . 12 Q. How would you descri be your r elatio nshi p 13 14 15 16 17 with him? A . Casua l. He was an effective surrogat e o n the campai g n and that' s abou t t he extent . Q. Do you reca ll what title he had , if any , o n t he campaig n ? 18 A . I don 't recall that , bu t I 19 b e li eve it was largely in communications . 20 21 know -- I Q. Are you aware o f any connecti ons h e may have had wi th the Russian government ? 22 A . I'm n o t, n o . 23 Q. Are you aware o f Alfa Bank ? 24 A . No . 25 Q. Did any official s on the Trump campai g n 64 1 ever d i scuss Al f a Bank wit h you? 2 A. No , t hey did not. 3 Q. As you may be aware , there were news 4 report s during t he campaig n that the Trump 5 Organi za ti on may have rece i ved a nd sent electronic 6 communications with Alfa Bank . The campaign 7 re s ponded that' s no t accura t e . I s it correc t t o 8 say that the Trump Organizat ion has no relati o n ship 9 wit h Alfa Bank or to t he e xt e nt t hat you ' re awar e 10 o f it ? 11 A . I' m no t aware of any re l at ionshi p . 12 Q. When did you fir s t meet 13 A . I bel i eve it woul d have been somet i me Paul Manafort? 14 spring o f '1 6 , before the Repu bli can National 15 Conve nti on . 16 17 18 19 Q. What was the nature of your relationship wit h him? A . He became our campaign chairman and I worked with him accordingl y . 20 Q. What was your unders t a ndi ng o f 21 Mr . Manafort' s business pri or to j o ining the 22 campai g n? 23 A . I understoo d tha t he worked on numerous 24 po litical campaigns and he was brought on primarily 25 because I g uess he h ad experti se and e x pe ri ence in 65 1 cont est e d con venti o n s , whi ch i s somethi ng tha t we 2 were con cern ed a b o ut a t t h e time . 3 Q . Are you aware o f any ties , direct or 4 indirect, past o r p r ese nt, be t ween Mr. Man a f o rt a nd 5 the Russ i an governme nt? A . I' ve read t hat s i nce , but 6 7 a nyt h ing specifi c , n o . 8 9 10 Q. Were you aware of Mr . Manafort ' s r e l a ti o n shi p wit h a n d wor k on behalf o f Vi kt o r Yanukovych? A. Agai n , I' v e heard that si nce , but not at 11 12 I' m not aware of the time , no . 13 Q . Did you ever discuss Ukraine , Ukrai n i an 14 int erests , Ukra i n i a n p o lit ici a n s , o r Ukraini an 15 b u s i ness wi t h Mr . Mana f o r t ? 16 A . No , no t tha t I recal l . 17 Q. Do y o u k n ow Ko n s t ant in Ki limni k ? 18 A . Not that 19 Q . Do you know Car ter Page? 20 A . I ' ve he ard t he n ame s ince , b u t I 21 wouldn ' t 22 no . 23 24 25 I' m aware o f, no . -- I d i dn 't k now who that was a t the t ime , Q . Di d you have any commun i cat ions wi t h him d u r i ng the campai gn t hat you r ecall? A. No t t hat I recall. Tha t doesn 't mean I 66 1 d i dn 't run into hi m, you know , if he was a t a 2 campai g n meet or some t hing l i ke t hat , j ust t o be 3 very clear . 4 probabl y wo ul dn ' t be abl e to t e ll yo u who he was . If you put him in this room today I 5 Q. Do you know George Papadopoul o s ? 6 A . Yes . 7 Q. Do you k now when you f i rs t met hi m? 8 A . I have no i dea . 9 Q. What' s t he nat ure o f your rel a t ion ship 10 The name sounds familiar . with him o r how do y ou know him? 11 A . I be l ieve he worked on t he campaign and I 12 kn ow the name , but t hat' s about t he ex t ent o f what 13 I recall at th i s time . 14 Q. What 15 the campaign ? i s your u nderstanding of his work for 16 A . I don 't recall at this t ime . 17 Q. Did you have a n y reason t o believe t hat h e 18 had ties with the Russ i an government ? 19 A . No . 20 Q. Do you k now Rick Gates? 21 A . I do . 22 Q. When did you fi rst meet hi m? 23 A . Sometime a l ong , you know, on the campaign . 24 Q. And what was t he nature of your 25 relati o n shi p wit h hi m? 67 1 A . I kn ew he h ad don e some wo rk with Paul 2 a n d , you know , was working wit h him . 3 related t o t hat I would communicate with Rick 4 occas i o n a ll y . So as it 5 Q . Was he affiliated with the Tr ump campaign? 6 A . Actually I don ' t know if he was affiliated 7 of fi c i a lly , but he d i d work, you know , espec i al l y 8 work with Paul Manafort and such . 9 10 So ... Q. Can you describe wha t h is role was within that work to the extent you know? 11 A. As I recal l, some o f i t had to do with 12 probably communicat i ons . 13 more general stu ff as it related to what 14 doing as campaign chairman i n the o rga n izati on , b ut 15 I do n ' t 16 would have been . 17 MR . DAVIS : 18 20 MR . FOSTER: We ' ll go off t he record at 10 :45. (A short break was had . ) 22 MS. SAWYER : 23 It's about 10:59. 25 I t h ink t h i s is a good stoppi n g We ' ll take a short break . 21 24 Paul was recall the specific ti tle or role, what it po int for us . 19 Other s had to do wi t h We'll go back on the record . 68 1 2 EXAMINAT ION BY MS . SAWYER : 3 Q . Again , my name is Heather Sawyer . I work 4 wit h Sen a t o r Fe i nste i n . I have some o f my 5 co ll eagues here . 6 this round . 7 will n ot speak over each othe r, but if a t a ny point 8 anything I' m aski ng you is uncl ear , l et me know and 9 I'll be happy t o c l arify . I'll do the pr i mary quest i oni ng They may have a f ew follow- up . We 10 A . Thank you . 11 Q. I n working for the campaign did you have a 12 campai g n e-mail address? 13 A . I did not , no . 14 Q. Did you h ave a perso n al address t h a t you 15 ev er u sed? 16 A . No t for campaign issues , no . 17 Q. Okay . So t he o nl y e -mail address t hat you 18 u sed would have been the Trump Organizati on e - mail 19 address ? 20 A . I belie ve so , y es . 21 Q . What 22 about phones , did you have a campaign p h one? 23 A . I did not . 24 Q . Personal phone ? 25 A. One and the same . I h ave o n e phon e . 69 1 Q. Do you have a l a ndline a t work? 2 A . I do , yes . 3 Q. Do you know whether tha t landline has a 4 pr i vate bran c h exch ange tha t e n abl es i t to track 5 ca lls to your part i cul ar number ? 6 A . I don 't know, no . 7 Q. Do you k n ow whether or not there was a 8 search for any l ogs from that in responding to the 9 Committee ' s request f or info rmati on? 10 11 A . I 'l l defer to counsel because t hey did a ll the searches , but I believe so . MR . FUTERFAS : 12 I' ve never heard the terms 13 you ' ve just used about the b ranch something , but 14 we ' re happy to l ook i n t o the question. 15 MS . SAWYER : 16 MR . FUTERFAS : 17 18 Thank you . What were the terms that you used? MS . SAWYER : The term I used was private 19 branch exchange . I think that -- I ' m no technical 20 expert, but I think t hat wil l work a n d maybe 21 someone who is will unders t and be tt er . 22 MR. FUTERFAS : 23 MR . PRIVOR: Or PBX. Okay . More generally t he questi on is 24 do you have logs of t e l ephone ca ll s? 25 r ecords break it down by e xten s i o n. Usually phone 70 1 MS. SAWYE R: And if so , we wo uld ask that you 2 search and p roduce any rele vant call i n forma ti o n 3 f rom t ha t. MR. FUTERFAS : 4 We 'll find tha t out a nd do so 5 if it ca n be searche d . 6 MR . TRUMP : 7 MR. FUTERFAS : 8 I don't know . 9 BY MS. SAWYER: 10 If we haven't already . I jus t don 't know. That part Q . I n speaking with my colleagues you 11 descri bed the campaign as chaotic . 12 ca le ndar? 13 Did you keep a A . I i magi ne very generally, but not anything 14 specifi c . You know , if I had appointments t hey 15 would likely be in my calendar , yes . Q . So you had a calendar . 16 Would t hat reflec t 17 b oth work appo i n tme nt s and campa i gn appointme n t s if 18 you had t hem? 19 A . Yes , it wou l d . 20 Q . And h ave you produced those calendar 21 en tries for the Committ ee o r would you go ahead and 22 do so? 23 MR . FUTERFAS : We have t o the extent t hey ' ve 24 been r esponsive , yes . 25 kn ow if t he p ri or q ue s ti o n al l uded, bu t to t he In f act, I t hink I don ' t 71 1 extent there was a calendar, I think there was a 2 ca le ndar entry to that meeting. 3 BY THE WITNESS : 4 5 6 7 A . I a ll uded t o tha t statement . Q . We ' ll check through and if we have follow-up, we 'll follo w up wit h your l awyers . 8 9 10 i n my openi ng How o fte n during the campaign did you speak with your father? A . It would very much depend on the week . 11 Some weeks it could be quite often , some weeks i t 12 would be not at a ll. 13 didn 't make sense to be where he was . 14 a big perso nality, creates sort of a vacuum . 15 went and focu sed on a reas where he wasn 't. Most of the time for me it He ' s sort of So I 16 Q . Do you have offices i n Trump Tower ? 17 A . I do . 18 Q . During the campaign he a ls o had off i ces in 19 Trump Tower? 20 A . He did , yes . 21 Q . And how close are your offices t o his 22 offices? 23 A . He' s a floor above my offices . 24 Q . In general t erms during the campaign what 25 perce nt age of your time o n any give n day was 72 1 devoted t o campai g n acti viti es? 2 3 A . It coul d vary great ly f rom zero to a hundred percent depending on the time and place . 4 Q. Now , I want to go back and t alk to you a 5 litt l e b it about the exchange you had wit h Rob 6 Goldstone . 7 the s ub j ect li ne " Ru ss i a - Cli n t o n, pri vat e a n d 8 confiden ti al "? He sent you an e - mail on June 3rd with A . Yes . 9 10 Q. You told my colleagues earli er you were 11 no t expecti ng this e - mail . 12 were wh en you rece ived it ? 13 A . I don 't, no . 14 Q. Your respon se says t hat you were o n the 15 road . 16 time? Do you recall where you Do you recall t hat you were travel ing a t the 17 A . I don't recall t h at , n o . 18 Q. Is it possibl e that you we re traveling 19 with the campaign ? 20 A . That 21 Q. And would there be records tha t might 22 reflect whe re you were o n that part i cu l ar day, 23 June 3r d , when you received this e - mail? is possibl e , yes . 24 A . I imagine there may be something , y e s . 25 MS. SAWYER : And would you produce if -- if 73 1 there i s , wo ul d you produce that d ocumentat i on to 2 t h e Committee? MR . FUTERFAS: 3 4 BY MS . SAWYER : Q. When you got t he e - mail did you discuss it 5 6 I have no objection to t hat . wi th anyone ? 7 A . No , n ot that I recal l. 8 Q. I t came to you on a Friday . 9 to anyone about it over the weekend? Did you t alk 10 A . Not that I remember , no . 11 Q. I s it possible that you spoke wi th anyone 12 about it ? 13 14 15 A . It is possible , but I don ' t recall doing it . Q. You got a n e - mail with a title 16 " Russia- Clinton , privat e and confidential ," you 17 didn 't mention that to Paul Man afort? 18 A . Other t han I forwarded t he e - mail t o him 19 to invite them t o the meet ing, I didn ' t discuss it 20 with him t o my recollection , n o . 21 22 Q. And you said you forwarded it . That was t h e o nl y time you recall discussing it wit h h im? 23 A . That ' s the only time I recall , yes . 24 Q. And Exhibit 1 which you reviewed with my 25 co lleagues indicates that y ou forwarded it on 74 1 J u ne 8 , 201 6 . 2 r e f erence t o " Meet in g got moved t o 4 : 00 tomorrow at 3 my of f ice ," Mr . Manafort resp onds " See you t hen ." 4 Had you no t d i scussed the mee ting with hi m be f o r e 5 that t ime? 6 7 8 9 At tha t poi n t the r e ' s j us t a A . I don 't recall discussing i t wit h him at tha t time , b ut I may have . Q. How woul d he have known what thi s mee ti ng was about i f you had not d i scussed it wi th h im? 10 A . I don 't know . 11 Q. Di d he ever a s k you about i t ? 12 A . Not that I recall. 13 Q. This particul ar documen t, Donald J. Trump , 14 15 16 17 J u nio r Ex hibi t 1, bears a Bates A . Ex c u se me one second . Exhibit 1 . Someon e t ook my I don ' t seem to see it here . Q. I t has a Ba t es numbe r DJTFP . I t hi nk t ha t 18 stands for Donal d J. Trump For President. Your 19 lawyers also produced t o the Committee a vers i on of 20 t h e e - mail , but it did no t include that f orward 21 from Mr . Manafort. 22 we can enter it as Ex hi bi t 1 0 , but t hi s o ne does 23 show t ha t i t was sen t t o you at t he 24 Do you know why t his version was not produced t o 25 t h e Commi t t ee? We have a version of tha t and 75 1 A. I do not kn ow . 2 ( DJTJR Exhi bit 10 was marked 3 4 for identificat ion . ) BY MS . SAWYER : 5 Q. I' m go i ng t o give you Exhi bit 10. 6 A . Thank you . 7 Q. Do you recall see i ng wh a t has been marked 8 as Exhib it 1 at the time with a response from 9 Mr . Manafort? 10 11 A . I recall see ing it in preparation for th i s . 12 I don ' t recall i t a t the time . Q. I ' m sorry. Exhi bit 1 you saw in 13 preparation fo r this or Ex hibit 1 0? 14 A . I may have see n bo t h . 15 (Whe r eupon a discussion was had 17 sotto voce . ) BY THE WITNESS : 19 20 21 If I could see the differences . 16 18 I don' t k now . A . I guess I' m not sure which one , if no t bo t h . Q. With regard to the document that ' s marked 22 Exhibit 1 0 , whi ch i s t he one that your l awyers 23 produced t o the Commit t ee , does t hat e - mail capture 24 the entire exchange about thi s meeting barring wha t 25 was the respon se fr om Mr. Manafort that does no t 76 1 2 seem to be captured there? MR. FUTERFAS: Just so the re c ord's c l ear , 3 there were multiple custodi ans to t his e - mail . 4 if the campaig n produced an e - ma il, the campaign 5 may have because different custodi ans were being 6 searched. 7 there was a few words that are additi onal to 8 Exhibit 10, i ncluding the " See you then," and I 9 think we also found earlier o n there was a n other So We have found that there was -- I think 10 again , another similar kind of brief e xchange , but 11 I think tha t was a f unction o f the different 12 custodians that were participating in this littl e 13 dialogue . 14 BY MS . SAWYER: 15 Q. We can talk off the record about the ot h er 16 change, but with regard to the document that was 17 produced t o the committee , Exhibit 10, to the best 18 of your knowledge , is that the full exchange? 19 A . Well , whichever one is the longer I 20 bel ieve is the full exchange . 21 I'm not aware of anything else . I do n't know , but 22 Q. Has it been altered in any way? 23 A . No. 24 Q. Have any o f the communi cations been 25 removed by anyone? 77 1 A. No t t hat I' m aware o f, no . 2 Q . You r e l eased a vers i o n o f t he e - mai l by 3 Twi t ter . 4 e - mail chain t o rel ease? A . I don 't know . 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 How did you decide wha t version o f the I t ' s t he version I pull ed up . Q . And d i d yo u co n s ult wi th a nyone in decidi ng t o do t hat ? MR . FUTERFAS : MS . SAWYER : As i de fr om coun sel? Yes , aside from counsel . BY THE WITNE SS : A. Al l those conversat ion s co unsel was invo l ved . 14 Q . Okay . 15 A. Co unsel? 16 Q. Yes . 17 A . Yes . 18 Q. And who was represent ing you ? 19 A . The two gent l emen here , Al an Garten and 20 And d i d you seek t hei r advi ce ? Al an Futerfas . 21 Q. And they we r e repre sent i ng you personal ly? 22 A . Yes , I beli eve so . 23 MR. FUTERFAS : 24 25 Yes . BY MS . SAWYER : Q . And t hey were involved i n a ll t he 78 1 conve r sa ti o n s you had about r e l ease of t hat e -mail? 2 A. Yes , t hey were . 3 Q. So you received this e - mail from 4 Mr . Gol dsto n e , t he e - mail that s t art s the c h a i n 5 that ' s contained on bo t h Exhibit 1 and Exhibit 10 I 6 believe , and you respond wi t hin 20 minut es even 7 though you 're on the r oad . 8 him to be o ffering? 9 What did you unde r stand A. Yo u know, agai n, I didn't kn ow wh a t 10 exactly t o make of the e - mail . 11 bu t I had no way of gauging its credi bi li ty or 12 reliability . 13 and his personality I imagine there was a discount 14 factor to a nyt h ing t hat was writ t en . I think e specially knowing Golds t o n e Q. Ha d you or t he campaign got t en o ther 15 16 I saw what it said, offers of assistance fr om Russia? 17 A . No, n o t that I'm aware of . 18 Q. So this would have been the first offe r o f 19 assistance from Russia? 20 MR . FUTERFAS : Objec t to the f orm of t he 21 question . Mr. Golds t o ne says what Mr. Golds t o ne 22 s ays. 23 assis t ance from Russia. 24 Mr . Gol ds t one says . 25 BY MS . SAWYER : You 're characterizing it as an o ff er o f We only know what So I object t o the form. 79 Q . Okay . 1 On it s face, I'll just read it, 2 "T he crown prosecutor of Russ i a met wit h hi s father 3 Aras " -- I took that to mean Aras Agalarov -- " this 4 morning and in their meet i ng offered to provide the 5 Trump campaign with some offi c ial doc uments and 6 information that would incrimina t e Hillary and her 7 dealings with Russia and would be very useful to 8 your father. 9 sensit i ve information but is part of Russia and its This is obvious l y very high level and 10 government ' s support f or Mr . Trump - helped along 11 by Aras a nd Emin." 12 Did you ask Mr. Goldstone wh a t that meant? 13 A . I did not , no . 14 Q . Were you s u rprised wh e n you read that 15 offer? 16 17 A . As I said , I wasn 't sure what to make of it. 18 Q. Did it alarm you in any way? 19 A . I don 't know that it alarmed me , but like 20 I said , I don't k n ow and I do n' t 21 all tha t focu s ed on it a t know that I was the time. 22 Q . And why wouldn 't that a l arm you? 23 A . I don't know because I don 't remember 24 25 thinking abo ut it at the time . Q . So you responded in 20 minutes to an 80 1 e - mai l that o n it s f ace of f ered sensiti ve 2 information bu t i s part of Russi a a n d you d i dn 't 3 think about it at t he time? 4 A . I may have thought about it at the time. 5 I don ' t recall thinki ng about i t at the time. 6 I responded in 20 minutes because if I get an 7 e - mai l I re spond to it. 8 And , again , I didn 't f o l low up . 9 I ever followed up other than in response to Rob If I see it, I respond. I don 't know that 10 following up wit h me three days later . 11 Q. And in your response i t says "I f it's what 12 you say , I love it, especially later i n the 13 summer ." 14 And Specifically what did you love about it? A . As I said i n my statement , it was a 15 colloquial term used to say, h e y, great , thank you . 16 I didn ' t want 17 had other stuff we h ad to worry about , namely a 18 po t ential contes t ed conven ti on . 19 process o f replacing Corey Lewandowski, who was the 20 campaign man ager , wit h Paul Manafort . 21 lot of s t uff on our plate . 22 to deal with anything right now . We were in the The r e was a Q. All right, but more specifi cally you say 23 "I f it' s what you say, I love it ." 24 " it " that you l oved in that e - mail? 25 We MR. FUTERFAS : I object . What was the I think Mr . Trump 81 1 h as a n swe r e d -- I'll, o f cour se , l e t him a n swe r, 2 b ut I thi nk tha t q u es ti o n has bee n as ke d a n d he ' s 3 answered i t. 4 BY THE WI TNESS : 5 A. Potent i al i n f orma ti on about an oppone n t . 6 Q . Po t ent i al i ncrimi nating infor mat ion on 7 Hill a r y Clint on ? 8 A. Yes . 9 Q . And what abou t the thing that say s "It i s 10 part of Russi a and i t s governmen t' s support for 11 Mr . Trump ," d i d you a ls o love that ? 12 A . I don't kn ow . 13 Q . Did you understand that that 14 15 I d on ' t r e call . would be p r o bl e ma t ic? A . I d i dn 't t hi nk tha t li s te n ing t o someo n e 16 with i nformation relevant to the f itness and 17 c h aract er o f a presi denti al can d i da t e wo u l d be a n 18 issue , no . 19 Q . So you bel ieved at the t ime that this 20 wo uld be po t e n t i a lly use fu l informati on t o y our 21 fa t he r? 22 23 24 25 A . No . I agr eed t o li s t e n and I was willing to l i sten and that ' s the ext ent of i t. Q . But you di d not be li eve it woul d be po t enti a lly very u se f u l to yo ur f a the r and t he 82 1 campai g n? MR. FUTERFAS : 2 I thi nk tha t questio n' s been 3 asked and answered now three t imes . 4 a n swe r it agai n , b ut my objecti on s tands for t he 5 re cord . 6 BY THE WITNES S : 7 I ' ll le t you A . Again, I d i dn 't know wh a t to make o f it. 8 I was willing to listen to him . 9 my instincts were corre c t becau se it was no n e o f 10 As i t t urns out , those things . 11 Q. And in your e - mail you s ay "Love it, 12 especi a ll y l ater in t he s ummer ." 13 part of your e - mai l mean ? 14 What did t hat A . It means thi s wasn ' t some thing tha t I 15 want ed t o g i ve much f ocu s t o , agai n , give n t he fac t 16 we were dealing wi th a potent i al contes t ed 17 conve nti on a nd t he very reality o f hav i ng t o 18 replace a campaign manager mid pri maries . 19 Q. In that first e - mai l Mr . Golds t one 20 s u ggest s and says that he coul d " Se nd this i n f o to 21 your father via Rhona , but it is ultrasensi ti ve so 22 wanted to send t o you fir st ." 23 my colleague that Rhona -- t hat r e fers t o Rhona 24 Graff? 25 A . That' s correc t. You had ind i cate d to 83 1 2 Q. And what role does she play i n the Trump Organization? 3 A . He was my father's assistant . 4 Q. And do a ll communi cati ons to your f ather 5 go through her? 6 7 A . I don't know about all , but a lot would h ave , yes. 8 9 Q. Does she answer his phone and handl e his appoi ntment s? 10 A . Someone else would likely answer the 11 phone , but she would handle his appointments and 12 schedule , yes. 13 14 Q. Could or would someone contact your f ather wit ho ut first contacting Rho na Graff? 15 A. People could, yes. 16 Q. And would Mr . Goldstone be one of thos e 17 perso n s? 18 A . Wo uld he be abl e t o contact my fath er? 19 Q. Directly . 20 A . Not t hat I'm aware of , no . 21 Q. Do you know if he sent thi s t o Rhona 22 Gra ff ? 23 A . I do not . 24 Q. Did you eve r ask her if he did? 25 A. I d i d not ask h er that, no. 84 1 2 Q. Di d you ever ask hi m not t o send it t o her ? 3 A . I did not . 4 Q. Di d you agr ee tha t thi s was 5 6 7 8 9 " u lt rasensit i ve " ? A . I didn 't know wha t it was . I don 't know tha t a n y t hing here i s ultrase n s iti ve . Q. Did you tell your father about t hi s e - mai l ? 10 A . I did not . 11 Q. Did you tell Mr . Manafort ? 12 A. As I said, I don't recal l telling h im 13 anyt hing about it other than the exchange as it 14 relates t o setti ng up the meeti n g . 15 Q. What abo ut Mr . Kushner ? 16 A . Same . 17 Q. Anyone else? 18 A . No . 19 Q . Why wouldn ' t you share it with your f ather 20 gi ven your response t hat you l oved it, especially 21 lat er in the summe r? 22 A . Because I woul d n' t b ring hi m anyt hi ng 23 that' s unsubstant iat ed , especially from a guy like 24 Rob , before I knew what it was act ual l y abou t 25 myself . 85 1 Q. Now , Mr . Go l dston e s uggests i n hi s e - mail 2 t h a t you speak with Emi n direct l y , a nd you h ad 3 indicated and my col league had you go through a 4 ca ll l og , a page of call l og . 5 going to actually i ntroduce for the record another 6 exhibit and we ' re going to mark thi s one 7 Exhi b it 11. 8 (DJTJR Exhibit 11 was marked 9 10 Do yo u reca ll -- I' m f or identifica tion.) BY MS . SAWYER : 11 Q. So t h is is a document produced by your 12 attorneys . It' s got Bates number DJTJR- 00851 to 13 00865 . 14 t h is is your -- it says down on the fr ont page " Don 15 Junior iPhone Trump" and it appears to be a bill 16 cycle from 17 are the -- as I understand it, the complete record 18 of your phone f or that month . 19 and direct your attention for the moment to page 20 855, whi ch i s the page that I be lieve my 21 colleagues So I think it ' s about 14 pages . 1111 from 6/1/ 1 6 to 6/30/16 . 22 A . Yes . 23 MR . PRIVOR: 24 page . 25 BY MS . SAWYER : I be li eve So these I just want t o start It's the same as Exhibi t 2, tha t 86 1 Q. Yes , t hat page i s t he same as Exhibit 2. 2 A. Co rrect. 3 Q. So you spoke with my colleagues about a 4 coupl e call s t hat occurred on 6/6 . 5 incoming cal l 6 that might have been Emin? at 4 : 04 p . m . One was an You s aid you beli eve 7 A. I believe tha t' s correct, yes . 8 Q. But you don ' t recall whether you spoke to 9 hi m or what you di scussed? 10 A . Correct. 11 Q. And then you d i dn ' t reca ll t he next call, 12 whi ch was a b l ocked cal l, who that wo uld h ave been 13 to? 14 A . Co rrec t. 15 Q. And then a n o t her call at 4 : 31 , agai n 16 Russia , t his is not incoming . 17 may have called . So it looks like you That's t hree minutes l o ng? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q . Do you reca ll whether you actually reached 20 Emi n ? A. I don 't recall if I actually reached him, 21 22 23 no . Q. So at thi s point in t ime on June 6t h 24 you ' re s till not sure e xactly from Emin ' s 25 perspect i ve what this meeti ng i s abo ut? 87 1 A. As far as I remembe r, yes . 2 Q. There ' s a blocked call at 8 :4 0 that day. 3 Do you know who that call was wi th? 4 A. I don't . 5 Q. Do you know why it's unredacted here? 6 There's a lot of cal ls tha t are r edacted . 7 Apparently it was deemed relevant. 8 that was? 9 A. I do no t kn ow . MR . FUTERFAS : 10 Do you know why Perhaps only t o n o t -- For the r e cord, we -- because 11 we d id no t 12 of relevance o r not relevance , we produced blocked 13 calls . 14 redacted porti ons we coul d identify wh o the call er 15 was , what the exch a n ge was , a n d t he n we could 16 determine relevance , but because we couldn ' t 17 de t ermine it one way or a not her we l e ft them i n . That true for all the blocked calls? 20 21 Obviously the blacke d - ou t port i ons , MR . PRIVOR : 18 19 know and coul d not make a determination MR . FUTERFAS : Yes. BY MS . SAWYER : 22 Q. Does your fat her used a blocked number o n 23 his cell phone or on any phones tha t you cal l him 24 on? 25 A. I don 't kn ow . 88 1 2 Q. So you don't know whet her or not this might have been your f a ther ? 3 A . I don't. 4 Q. What about Mr . Kushner , does he u se a 5 blocked number? 6 A . I don't believe so , no . 7 Q. And what about Mr . Mana f ort? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. The n ext day, June 7t h, a little further 10 down the page there ' s a call at 1 2 :4 4 , an incoming 11 call , the same number with a 7 extension from 12 Russia . 13 day? Do you recall speaki ng to Emin o n that 14 A . I don 't, no . 15 Q. Is it possible that you did? 16 A . It's possible that I did , yes . 17 Q. But you don't recall exchangi ng a ny 18 substantive conversation about the e -mail that 19 Mr. Goldstone had sent or the meeting? 20 A . No, I don't. Again , this s hows that it 21 was a two-minut e call , which i s 60 seconds -- 22 between 60 seconds and a minute 59. 23 imagine much substan ti ve would have transferred in 24 that period of time, which is what led me to say 25 or question whet her there was perhaps voicemai l So I can 't 89 1 a n d/or p l aying phone tag. 2 Q. But you don't r ecal l ? 3 A . I don 't recall , no . 4 Q. The n ext unblocked -- u nredacted ca ll i s a 5 ca ll at 4 : 07 p . m., i t s ays "Arl ington , VA" and has 6 a 703 number . 7 didn 't reca ll who tha t was . You indicat ed to my col leag ues you I s t hat the case ? 8 A . I don 't know who it i s now , no , I d on ' t . 9 Q. Wo ul d yo u be surprised if I told you that 10 a Google search shows t hat ' s Paul Mana f ort ' s 11 number ? 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. You don ' t recall speaking with him on 14 It may b e . June 7t h? 15 A. No , I don 't r ecall tha t. 16 Q. You don ' t recall speaking to him that day 17 about this meeting? 18 A . No , I don 't. 19 Q. Or the e - mail from Mr . Goldstone ? 20 A . No . 21 Q. Then just t o t ake you back a page on t his 22 I spoke t o Paul q uit e often . same exhibit t o 854 , ju st go bac k o ne page . 23 A . Okay . 24 Q. You 'll see " Sunday, 6/5 " at the bott om of 25 that page . 90 1 A. Yes . 2 Q. And as I indi cated to you earli er , you got 3 the e - mail from Mr . Go lds tone on a Friday . 4 Su nday there are two call s that have been 5 unredacted . 6 same number , Mr . Mana f o rt's number . 7 speaking t o him o n that Sunday? On One ' s at 4 : 28 to Arlington, Virginia , Do you recall 8 A. I don 't, no . 9 Q. Do you k n ow if you spoke to him possibly 10 on t hat Sunday about Mr . Go ldstone's e - mail or that 11 meeting? 12 13 14 A. No. I don't recall h aving those conversations . Q. About 15 mi nu t es later there' s a n other 15 call to New York , New York , 917. 16 number that is? 17 18 19 Do you know who se A . I could probably fi nd out , b ut I don 't know off the top of my head . Q . If I told you that a search of -- a Google 20 search of that indi cat es that it's Mr. Kushner ' s 21 number , would that surprise you? 22 A . No . 23 Q . And do you recall speaking with him on 24 25 that Sunday? A . No , I don't. 91 1 2 3 Q. Yo u don't r ecall s peaking wit h him 15 minutes after you spoke wit h Mr. Manafort? A . No, I don 't, but if we did , that was 4 somet hing that coul d happen every day on a 5 campaign, dealing with two o f the top people o n a 6 campaign. 7 Q. And you had received thi s e - mail two days 8 earlier with the title "Russia- Clinton , private and 9 con fi denti a l," but you don't belie ve -- do you 10 believe t hat you would have mentioned to them 11 that to them when you s po ke to them over that 12 weeke nd? 13 14 15 A . I just don 't recall . I could have , but I don 't remember doing it. Q. Was it so unremarka ble to have received 16 this e - mail that it would not have been something 17 you would want to rai s e wit h them? 18 A . I think I would have want ed t o speak t o 19 Emin or s omeone else fir s t, but it's no t out of the 20 realm of possibility, no . 21 Q. And then when you spoke t o Emin you didn 't 22 get subs t ant i ve information, but you were willing 23 to go forward with the meeting . 24 25 Why was tha t? A . Well , I don ' t r e call saying I ever spoke to Emin. I'm not s u re , but Rob and Emin were 92 1 acquaintances and it woul d be pret t y customary for 2 me to g i ve a frie n d a f ew momen ts . 3 Q . You decided , t hough , to not just give a 4 few o f your own moments , but t o ask Mr . Man a f ort 5 who you described in the e - mai l 6 boss . 7 verifi ed what you be l ieve that meet ing was going to 8 be about? 9 a s the campaign Did you do that not knowing and having A . Can you repeat t h e questio n, please? Q . Sure . 10 You didn ' t only give a few minutes 11 of your own time . You elected to bring in 12 Mr . Man afort , who you describe as t h e campai gn boss 13 in an e - mail , and Mr . Kushner . 14 t i me , t h e campaign boss ' s time , and Mr . Ku s h ner ' s 15 time , a n d you did so wit h out h aving confirmed wh at 16 you believed this meeting was going to be about? So you devot e d your 17 A . Yes , I beli eve so . 18 Q . You believe you did not know what the 19 meeting was going to b e about going into it ? 20 A . I h ad an u n derstandi n g of wh at Rob wrote . 21 I had , to my reco llec tion , no way o f verifying 22 wh ether t hat was true because I don ' t 23 having any conversat ions about i t. 24 the same building and oftent imes on the same floor 25 as me . remember They work in So i t woul d n' t be uncustomary f or me to go 93 1 int o them a n d say , h ey, swi ng int o some t h ing as 2 they've probab l y do n e t o me h undreds o f times p ri or 3 to t hat . Q . When you f orwar ded them the e - mail on 4 5 J une 8 -- and, again , your message to them just 6 says "Mee t ing go t moved to 4 : 00 t omorrow a t my 7 o ffi ces " and it did i nclude that entire e -mail 8 chain? 9 10 11 A. Yes . Q . Did Mr . Mana f ort ask you any que s ti ons about that meet i ng? 12 A. Not that I recall . 13 Q . Do you recall discussing it wit h h i m at 14 a l l before you we nt i n t o t he mee ti ng ? 15 A. I don't, n o . 16 Q . What about Mr . Kushner , did he ask you any 17 quest i o n s abo ut the meet ing ? 18 A . Again, not t hat I r emembe r. 19 Q . Did you discuss it with h i m at all before 20 you went i n t o the meeting? 21 A . Not tha t I r emembe r, no . 22 Q . My co ll eagu e s howed you some o t her 23 exhibits where Mr . Goldstone or the Agalarovs had 24 f o r warded informat ion, pleasantr i es t o Rhona to 25 g i ve t o your father? 94 1 A. Yes . 2 Q. Here ' s a n i ns t a nc e of somet hi ng described 3 as ultrasensitive i n formation . 4 were rout i nel y g i ven to Rh ona a n d t he n g i ven to 5 your father , why wasn ' t this passed o n t o your 6 father? 7 MR . FUTERFAS : If those exchanges I object to the form o f the 8 question . Actually , co uld you rephra se the 9 ques ti o n ? It c ould be t hat my object i on is ill 10 advised . 11 thought you were asking why didn ' t Rob send 12 t h ought you were i nquiring a bout the s t ate o f mind 13 about Rob Golds t one , but maybe you were asking 14 somet hi n g differe nt . 15 16 17 Could you rephrase the question ? MS . SAWYER : I I So if you coul d rephrase it? Sure . BY MS . SAWYER : Q. Our co ll eague showed you a n umber of 18 exhibit s showing that when we l l wishes or 19 information from Mr . Goldstone or the Agalarovs 20 came to your fa t her t hey were passed on to y our 21 f a ther . 22 descr i bed as very use f ul to your fat her ' s campai g n. 23 Why wasn ' t that shared with him? 24 25 In this case the r e ' s informa tion that ' s A . Be cause I d on ' t know tha t I was eve r the perso n shar ing t hat i n f ormation or t hose wel l 95 1 wi shes wit h my f at her , and Rho n a i s not , to my 2 kn owledge , o n thi s i ni ti a l 3 4 e -ma il. Q . And the document you 're referring to has a number o f notes o n it? 5 A. Yes . 6 Q . I don't think it ' s a document t hat we ' ve 7 s h ared wit h you or u sed as an exhibit ? 8 A. No . 9 Q. Woul d you be willing to share that with 10 the Committee? A. These are notes I prepared with counse l. 11 12 So ... 13 Q . And the underlying document is the e - mai l? 14 A . It ' s just t he e -mail c hai n , yes. 15 Q. So you did not pass the information along 16 to your father . 17 18 19 20 Do you know if anyone e l se did? A . I don 't believe they d id, b ut I don' t know, Q . Have you ever asked him if he was given t h is e - mail or told abo ut t h i s meeti n g ? 21 A . No , I haven ' t . 22 Q. Has h e ever told you wh ether he saw thi s 23 e - mail or knew about this meeting? 24 A . Not that I recall , no . 25 Q. And tha t i s something you would recall? 96 1 A. Ce rtai n l y n o t at t hat time . So I mean , 2 obv i o u s l y he ' s awar e o f it now becau se he ' s read 3 i t, it' s been i n the p apers , but t hat' s t he ext ent 4 o f my kn owl edge o f hi s kn owl edge o f it. 5 Q. And when h e f ound out about i t because , as 6 you said , i t' s b een in the papers , d i d he express 7 s urp ri se t o you ? 8 A. I don 't thi nk so , no . 9 Q. Di d h e ask you -- d i d he ind i cat e t o you 10 that he hadn ' t known about t he mee ti ng before? 11 he say why wasn 't I to l d about thi s mee ti ng ? 12 A . No , h e di d n't. 13 Q. Did you f i nd t hat odd? 14 A . No , becau se he wasn 't aware o f it , and , Did 15 f rankl y , b y the time anyone was awar e o f i t , whi c h 16 was summer o f t h i s year , as I stat ed earl ier , I 17 wo u l d n' t 18 because it had nothing to do wi th h i m. 19 have wanted to ge t h im i nvol ved in i t Q. So Mr . Golds t one and you d iscussed thi s 20 wit h my co ll eague s -- had indi ca t ed tha t h e woul d 21 send t he names o f the t wo peopl e meeti ng wi t h you, 22 b ut you sai d h e never di d send you tha t 23 informat i on ? 24 A . That' s corr ect. 25 Q. And h ow d i d t hey t he n gai n access -- he 97 1 sa i d for security reasons he would send that. 2 did they then gai n access to the Trump Tower? 3 A . Apparently because they were with 4 Mr . Gol dstone whe n he s howed up and h e had an 5 appointment . Q . Okay . 6 So t here would have been an 7 appo intment log f or Mr . Goldston e kept at Trump 8 Tower? 9 How A. No . There would have been a mee ting in my 10 cal endar and security downstair s would call up and 11 say your appoi n tment ' s here and I' d say okay . 12 Q. So there ' s no addi tional screeni ng o r l og , 13 I think y o u indicated? 14 A . Correct. 15 Q. Did you t ake any s t eps to try to l ear n 16 anymore information about the individuals you were 17 meeting wi th before you took -- before you were in 18 the meet i ng with them? 19 A . No . As I said, I d idn 't know who they 20 were before they got i n there , and o n ce they left 21 it was apparent t o me there was nothing worth 22 f ollowing up on . 23 before this if you put those people in thi s room 24 right now, o ther than Golds t one , I wouldn ' t 25 been abl e t o tell you who any o f them were . So I d i dn 't. You know, again , have 98 1 Q. So you took no steps to understand who the 2 Russian government l awyer might be wh o was coming 3 to meet with you ? 4 5 6 7 A. It became pretty clear she wasn 't repre sen ting the Russ i an government . Q . Bu t you took no steps to determine who she was before you met wit h her? 8 A. No , I did not . 9 Q. What about the mention in the e-mail to 10 the Crown prosecutor of Russia , what was your 11 understanding o f who that referred to? 12 13 A. I had never heard of the position . So I don 't know wha t that even is, if it even exists . 14 Q. And you didn 't ask anyone about that? 15 A. I didn 't, no. 16 MR . PRIVOR : 17 18 19 20 During the meeting did you ask if anyone was a Crown prosecutor? MR . TRUMP: No, I didn 't. It became p retty apparent that they weren 't. MR . PRIVOR : And based on what was it 21 apparent t o you tha t they weren 't affiliated with 22 the Russian government? 23 MR . TRUMP: That they were working on cases 24 in the United States . 25 obvious to me that they were not representatives of It j us t became pretty 99 1 the Russ i an gove rnment. 2 BY MS . SAWYER : 3 Q. But you didn 't ask them t hat questi on ? 4 A. But I di d n't ask t hem . 5 Q. So t he e - ma il sai d the meet i ng woul d be i n 6 your of fi ces . Where d i d you end up mee t ing ? 7 A. We me t in our 25t h fl oo r confe r e nce r oom . 8 Q. And where i s t hat compared t o where your 9 offi ce act uall y i s? 10 A . It' s next d oor to my of fi ce . 11 Q. So i t 's one fl oor down f rom your father ' s 12 offi ces? 13 A . That' s cor rect. 14 Q. Di d h e come by a t any p o int i n the 15 me eting? 16 A . He did not. 17 Q. Di d anyo ne e l se s t op by a t a ny point in 18 that mee ti ng ? 19 A . No t that I recall, no . 20 Q. So no one a t t ended o ther tha n t he 21 indi vidu a l s you a l ready li s t e d wit h my co l l e agues ? 22 A. Co rrect. 23 Q. Yo u sai d t hat there were introducti ons 24 25 made at t he outset ? A. Casua l hell o , ha ndsha kes , tha t kind o f 1 00 1 2 3 s tuff. Q . Did Mr . Manafo rt know any o f t he parti cipant s ? 4 A. No t t hat I' m aware o f, no . 5 Q . Do you know whether he knew 6 Mr . Akhme ts hin? 7 A. I do no t kn ow if he knew him . 8 Q . Do you know if he knew Ms . Veselnitskaya ? 9 A. I do no t. 10 11 12 13 Q. Did you ever ask him at any point whe t her he knew a ny of tho se indiv i dual s? A. I d i dn 't a nd I don 't r ecall anything that woul d lead me to believ e that he did know them . 14 Q . Have you spoke n wi t h hi m about it s i nce? 15 A. Si nce , no . 16 Q. You haven 't spoken with him about it in 17 preparati on for your testimo ny today? 18 A . No , I have no t. 19 Q. So you ' ve never had the opportunity to ask 20 him about tha t meeting and hi s recollection o f tha t 21 mee ting ? 22 A . No , I have no t. 23 Q. What about Mr . Kushner , did he know any of 24 25 the part i c i pants? A . I don't beli eve so , no . 1 01 1 Q. He d i dn 't know Mr. Gol ds t o ne? 2 A. He may have met Mr. Golds t o ne a t th e WGC 3 Champi onship i f he was there , I don 't even know if 4 he was , but I don 't be li eve he h a d a ny 5 conve r sa ti ons beyo nd, agai n , a casual meet and 6 gree t wh i le Rob was a t the event t hat Emin was 7 pe rfo r mi ng a t. 8 9 Q. And what about any o f the o t her pa rti c i pant s , did he know any o f t hem? 10 A . I don 't believe so . 11 Q. Di d you eve r as k hi m if he knew any o f 12 them? 13 A . I didn 't, no . 14 Q. And h ave yo u had an opportunity s ince the 15 Ju ne 9t h meeti ng t o t a lk wit h hi m about tha t 16 mee ti ng ? 17 A . Only with counsel. 18 Q. And , agai n , t he c ounsel was r epr esent i ng 19 20 whom? MR. FUTERFAS: 21 t a l ki ng abo ut? 22 BY MS . SAWYER: 23 24 25 Whi c h pe ri o d o f time a r e you Q. We ll, when d i d you t alk t o him about the mee ti ng ? A. I imagine i n p r eparation f o r t hi s we ' ve 1 02 1 had coun se l -- we ' ve had conversat i o n s , but that ' s 2 about the extent of i t . 3 no . 4 5 Certainly no t at t h e time , Q. So there was coun sel t h ere r epresen ting you and counse l there representing him? 6 MR . HERMES : Are you t alking about recent ly? 7 MS . SAWYER : Yes . 8 BY MS . SAWYER : 9 Q. My un derstandi ng is you had n ot spoken 10 with him about t he mee t ing until recently in 11 preparat i on for your testimony? 12 A. That is correct . 13 Q. So that was the first time you spoke with 14 hi m. 15 Wh en d i d t hat happen just t ime wise? MR . FUTERFAS : I mean , we ' re talking the 16 last -- since sometime in late J une or early July 17 or whatever -- whenever -MR . TRUMP : 18 19 I woul d say that ' s accurat e , yes . 20 MR . FUTERFAS : 21 when we ' re tal king about . 22 BY MS . SAWYER : 23 24 25 -- be t ween t he n a nd now is Q. So had you spoken with him before t he New York Times report ed on the meeting? A . I don't remember . 1 03 1 2 Q . So it' s possibl e you ha d spoken wit h hi m be fore it got reported o n publi c ly in the p re ss? 3 A . Yes , it' s possible . 4 Q . And was a nyone e l se invo l ved in those 5 conversa ti ons beside s you and Mr . Kushner and your 6 lawyers? 7 A. As I sai d , I don't reca ll actua ll y hav ing 8 the conversati o n. 9 don 't kn ow. 10 I just said it ' s possible . MR . PRIVOR : Do you recall what prompted you 11 to have a d i scussion with Mr . Kushner before it 12 became publicly report ed? 13 MR . FUTE RFAS : Object to the for m of the 14 question. 15 conversatio n. 16 client answer the question . 17 18 19 20 He said it's possible t hey had a So wit h t ha t proviso I'l l let my MR . TRUMP : I don ' t remember . BY MS . SAWYER : Q. So you spoke with my col l eagues a bit about what actually was discussed in t he meeting . 21 A . Yes . 22 Q . So wh o spoke fir s t? 23 A . I bel i eve the lawyer through her 24 25 So I translator . Q . So s h e does no t spea k Engl i s h, as far as 1 04 1 2 you k now? A . She used t h e tra n slat o r. I don ' t know i f 3 she knows some English and maybe int e rj ected some , 4 bu t I r emember t hat she spoke through a tran slat or . 5 Q. So she was speaki ng i n Russian? 6 A . I believe so . 7 Q. He trans l a t ed -- do you under s t a nd 8 9 10 11 Russ i an ? A. I do no t. Q. Did anyo ne e l se -- did Mr . Manafort spea k Russ i an ? 12 A. Not that I' m aware o f. 13 Q. What about Mr . Kushner ? 14 A . I don't bel ieve so . 15 Q. So you a ll were relying on the t ran slator 16 to convey what Ms . Veselnitskaya was saying ? 17 A . Correct. 18 Q. So exact ly what d i d she say to you about 19 20 the tax s c heme ? A . I beli eve I sai d i t ear l ier , but 21 essent ially that peopl e who had some connect ions or 22 deal ings i n Russ i a and the Unit e d Stat es who we r e 23 big funders of t he DNC and/or Hillary Clint on were 24 perhaps avoiding paying taxe s in both of those 25 marke t s t hrough some so r t o f sch eme . I mean, 1 05 1 that's the gi s t of it a nd that's probably wh e r e 2 they l os t me . 3 Q. Did you ask any follow- up ques t ions? 4 A. I thi nk we tri ed to a sk her to expand o n 5 it a li t tl e bit and I don 't know that we got any 6 more clari t y as t o t he issue or potent ial con fli c t. Q. Okay . 7 8 You said " we ." Who specifi cal ly? Did you ask her to c larify? A. I don't recall wh o asked . 9 I bel i eve it 10 was myself , but "we " meaning myse lf, Paul , and 11 J ared were there . 12 we asked f or some c l a rity to try to expand on it a 13 little bit and I don 't know that we got any more 14 c l ari ty on it. 15 I don ' t remember who asked , but Q. So you don't recall speci fi cally if you 16 asked . Do you know i f Mr. Manafort asked for her 17 to expand? 18 A . I don 't. 19 Q. Do you recall if Mr . Kushner did ? 20 A . I don't, no . 21 Q. So was any information specific to Hil l ary 22 Cli nt o n prov i ded d uri ng the meeting? 23 A . No, there was not . 24 Q. Did you ask for any information specific 25 to Hill ary Cli nt o n ? 1 06 1 A. I asked as it r e l a t ed to what wo ul d this 2 ha ve to do wit h the premise of the meeting and 3 tha t' s sort of where the transition went int o , 4 agai n , Russian adopt i on a nd ultimately Magnitsky. 5 Q. When you say you asked what it had t o do 6 with the premise of t he mee ti ng , exact ly how did 7 you p ut t hat? 8 A. I don't recall. 9 Q. Did you specifi cally ask whet her they had 10 11 incriminating information on Hillary Clinton? A. I don't beli eve I specificall y asked t hat , 12 no , but I k now we asked for further de t ai l because 13 this wasn 't clear. 14 Q. Did you ask a t a ny point in time wh at was 15 meant by "Thi s is part of Russia, the Russi an 16 government ' s support f or your fa t her "? 17 18 19 20 21 A . No. At this point I think we had generall y l ost inter es t. Q. Okay. And why is it that you had los t interest? A . Be cause Russian adoption and this sort of , 22 you k now , tax scheme and an act I had never hear d 23 of , none of them were campaign issues and none of 24 them were t hings we were s p ending time on . 25 Q. But what i s it that speci fi ca lly you were 1 07 1 interested in gett in g out o f that meeting? 2 3 A. I was interested in li s te ning to information . 4 Q. Information on Hillary Clint on? 5 A. Yes . 6 Q. Information on Hillary Clint on that came 7 potenti al ly fr om the Russi an government? 8 9 A. Again , I had no way of assess ing where it came fro m, but I was wil li ng to listen. 10 Q. You had an e - mail saying that it was part 11 of t he Russian government ' s suppo rt for your 12 father. 13 was what you we re going to hear ? Did you have a ny reason to doubt tha t that MR. FUTE RFAS: 14 Asked and answered about five times. 16 answer i t, but I think that same question has been 17 asked many times. 18 BY THE WITNES S : 19 So I object to the question . I'll l e t him 15 I'll let my clie nt answer . A . I think it ' s been covered , but to clarify 20 I t hink, yes, given Rob a n d his history, I h ad no 21 way to validate tha t there was any legitimacy to 22 this wha t soever . 23 correct about that. As I said, my instincts were 24 Q. And was that a disappoint ment? 25 MR. FUTERFAS: Object to the form of the 1 08 1 q u est i o n, but I'll l et my c li e nt answe r. 2 BY THE WITNESS: 3 A . All else being equal , I wo uldn't have 4 want ed to waste 20 mi nutes heari ng about something 5 that I wasn 't supposed to be mee ti ng about . 6 7 Q. Because you did take the meeting to try to get that i n f o r mat i o n? 8 A. I took t he meeting to l i sten . 9 Q. And h ad the information been of f ered would 10 you have accepted it? 11 been offered because you actual ly were of fered 12 info r mati on fr om wha t you've t old us , but would you 13 have accepted it? 14 Had additi onal i nformation A . It depends on wha t that was and where it 15 came fro m, a nd at tha t poi nt if t here was a nyt hing 16 material I could hav e d ecide d what to do and 17 brought in counse l. 18 Q. And when the meet i ng ended did you have 19 any conversations with Paul Manafort or Jared 20 Kus hner about it? 21 A . No . 22 23 24 25 I t hink we a ll wen t back t o doing wh at we did o n a daily basis . Q. Did you go up and t a l k t o your father about it? A. No . I wouldn 't h ave wasted hi s time with 1 09 1 2 it. Q. Did you or anyone else a t any po int t hink you said you wo uld have -- i f 3 about consul t ing 4 yo u had gotten what you thought was additi onal 5 information you woul d have consu lt ed with a l awyer . 6 Did any of you consult wi th a lawyer in any event 7 about thi s? 8 A. No t that I'm aware of , no . 9 Q. Did any of you cons ider t a lki ng t o l aw 10 11 en f orcement about this? A. If some t hi ng would have mat eri a li zed t hat 12 would ha ve merited t hat we wo uld have like ly done 13 that, bu t there was no t hing the re . 14 Q. And i n your vi ew , what would have merited 15 consulti ng wit h a lawye r or g oing t o l aw 16 en f orcement? 17 A . If there was real i n for mation t hat coul d 18 jeopardize the presidency o r candidate for the 19 pres idency of the United Stat es . 20 o f i n for mation wo uld be relevant t o the Ameri can 21 public. 22 23 24 25 I think that kind Q. To the Ameri can public i s different t han law enforcement . Can you clari f y t hat di f ference ? A . I imagine if there was something real they would purs ue it a nd fin d out if and when that i s 11 0 1 co rre c t. 2 tha t. 3 I had no way of ever be i ng a b le to do Q . So was it your intent going int o t his 4 meeting if you got damagi n g informa tio n f rom t he 5 Russ i an government t o t ake that t o law enforcement ? 6 7 A . It would depend on whatever informa ti on was actua lly given, but no ne of t hat happe n e d. 8 Q . In retrosp e c t would you have accepted the 9 meeting if you had k nown what exactly it was go ing 10 to be? 11 A. I gues s it depends on how it came about . 12 Q. I f it came -- well, explain what you mean 13 14 15 16 by t hat . MR . FUTERFAS : Excuse me . I ob jec t to the f orm of the q u es ti o n. MS . SAWYER : I j ust asked t he question i f he 17 knew in hindsi ght e x actl y what was goi ng to come 18 o ut o f this mee ting would he have accept ed it in 19 the fir s t instance . 20 BY THE WITNESS: 21 A . Likel y not . I would have accept ed a 22 mee ting fr om Rob Gol dstone because h e was an 23 acquaintance and he knew acquain t ances of ours . 24 this would have come f rom Ms . Vese l nitskaya I 25 li kely would ne ve r h ave accept ed it because I If 111 1 d idn 't know wh o s h e was . 2 more c r edence t o it coming f rom an acquai nt ance as 3 a courtesy . So I do believe I gave 4 Q . And d id yo u ever e x p r ess t o Mr. Goldstone 5 any d i sappo i ntment i n t he mee ti ng or in him having 6 arranged i t? 7 A. No , I didn't. 8 Q . And did it impact your relati onship wi th 9 He e x p r essed that t o me . hi m in any way? 10 A. I don 't know t hat o ur relationship was , 11 you know , more t han c a s ual . 12 b ut, again , a ll I 13 thanks and hellos and congratula ti o ns along the 14 way . 15 eve r got fr om Rob was casual Q . There was , in your view, no follow-up a t 16 all f rom this meeting? 17 A . Correct. 18 Q. I 19 So not subs t antial l y , jus t want e d to have you return to wha t was pre viously marked as Exhibit 5. 20 A . Yes . 21 Q . This is an e - mail sent 6/ 2 9/201 6 , so t he 22 e nd o f the month, 23 Scavino . from Rob Goldstone t o Dan Who is Dan Scavino? 24 A . Dan Scavino ran our social media campaign . 25 Q . And you 're CC ' d on thi s . Do you recall 11 2 1 getting t hi s? 2 A. I don't. 3 Q. Rhona Graff is also CC ' d . Do you know 4 wh a t, if anythi ng , Rhona Gra ff d id wit h this 5 e - mai l? 6 A . I don't. 7 Q. Do you know if s h e p r ov ided this e - mail t o 8 your father? 9 A. I doubt thi s is some thi ng s he wo ul d 10 prov ide t o my f ather , but I don 't know t hat . 11 Q. The subject li ne is "Ru s sia ' s largest 12 social media n e t work ' VK' o ff e r s Trump campaign 13 message t o over 2 million registered 14 Russian-American vot ers in t he USA ." 15 attachment whi ch there i s t wo pages tha t f oll ow . 16 Do you recall i f this was the at t achment, the 17 ac t ual a tt achment t o that e-mail? 18 19 20 21 It has an A . I don 't recall seeing it, but it likely was . Q. Do you k now what Mr . Scavino did wit h this e - mail ? 22 A. I do not . 23 Q. Did you ever ask him? 24 A . I did not . 25 Q. Do you k now if VK ever did p r ovide soci a l 11 3 1 medi a messaging to the Trump campai g n ? 2 A . I don't beli eve so , but I don't know . 3 Q. Why is it you don 't believe so? 4 A. Because I may have heard about it if they 5 would have done somet hi ng and I don 't recal l 6 heari ng about it. Q. Ju s t turnin g t o t he nex t page , whi ch i s 7 8 page 455 Ba tes n umber . A. Yes . 9 10 Q. It ' s got a p i cture of your father, it ' s 11 go t some hash t a gs , it' s got his b irt h and other 12 info rma ti on . 13 It says " Donald J . Trump , 1 6 May a t 7 : 58 p . m., 14 Berni e Sanders i s be i ng treated very badly by the 15 Dems . 16 run as an independent . 17 18 The n it has some pos t s by Donald J. The sys tem is rigge d agai ns t him. He should Run Bernie run ." Is tha t a n actua l post o f your f a ther ' s? A . I don ' t know . I doubt t hat he post ed on a 19 page with 36 fol l owers , but it looks like that 20 could have been someone e l se copying hi s Twitter 21 feed or something to that ef fect on thi s page t hat 22 someo ne se t u p . 23 Q. Then the next one , "The media is" -- it ' s 24 ano t her Donald J. Trump , 1 6 May a t 7 : 57 p . m. " The 25 media i s reall y on a wit c h hunt again s t me , fal se 114 1 report ing a nd p l e nt y o f it, b ut we wil l prevail , 2 exclamat io n ." 3 4 Is t hat an actual Tweet of your father ' s ? A. I don't know, b ut, agai n , I don 't thi nk 5 he ' d been posting hi mse lf on VK on a page wit h 36 6 followers . 7 Q. So it' s poss ibl e they t ook the Tweets and 8 pu t it i nt o what they were propo sing to t hen put 9 out as social medi a messag i ng? 10 11 12 A . That l ooks to me as the most li kel y scenario, yes . Q. So was it your unde r standi ng t hat t his was 13 an o ffer t o coordina t e and amplify messaging with 14 the Trump campai g n ? 15 16 17 18 A. Again, I don 't know if I had an understanding b ecause I don ' t remember seeing it . Q. Have you ever asked anyone s u bsequent about this? 19 A . No , I haven ' t . 20 Q. Yo u said that you reviewed thi s in 21 p reparation for t oday . 22 Mr. Scav ino about it? Did you speak wit h 23 A . I don 't recall speaking t o Dan , no . 24 Q. Did you speak to anyone on the 25 communications or soci a l medi a team f or the 115 1 campai g n? 2 A . Not t hat I recall, no . 3 Q. Did you ever meet 4 Konstantin Sikorkov , spe ll ed S-I-K- O- R- K- 0- V? 5 A . No , no t that I re call. 6 Q. Your father gave a campaign speech on the 7 evening o f J une 7 th, 20 16, whi c h was four days 8 af t er you got Go l dstone ' s e - mai l but before you had 9 had the actua l meet i ng . I n tha t speech your f at her 10 s aid " I ' m goi ng to give a ma j or speech on prob ably 11 Monday of next wee k and we ' re go i ng t o be 12 discussing a ll o f the things tha t have t aken p l ace 13 with the Clintons . 14 very informati ve a nd ve r y , ve ry i nt eres ting ." I t hink you ' re going to find it 15 Wh a t was he re f erring to ? 16 A . I have no idea . 17 Q. Do you k now if he knew a t that poi nt in 18 time tha t you were mee ti ng on -- schedul ed t o 19 mee ti ng on J une 9th wit h a Russian lawye r ? 20 21 A . No , I don 't be li eve so because , again , I never discussed it with him a t a ll. 22 MR. PRIVOR : 23 discussed i t with him? 24 MR . TRUMP : 25 don 't kn ow . Do you know whe t her a nyone e l se I don ' t be l ieve they did , but I 11 6 1 MR . PRI VOR : 2 MR . TRUMP : 3 MR. PRIVOR : 4 MR. TRUMP : 5 Fo r instance , Paul Mana fort? I don ' t know. And Mr. Kushner? I don ' t know . BY MS . SAWYER : 6 Q . Mr . Manafort had met wi th him earlier tha t 7 day . Do you know if he -- t he day o f the meet ing , 8 J une 9th , do you know if he d i scussed it with him 9 the n? 10 A . I don 't know . 11 Q . Were you i nvo l ved in any way in helping 12 hi m prepare the comments for the speech that I just 13 read? 14 A . No . 15 Q . Yo u n ever would h ave been involved in 16 A . I wasn ' t involved in writing his speeches , 17 no . 18 19 I never woul d have do ne that . Q . Did you eve r ask him what he meant by that? 20 A . I d i d not , no . 21 Q . So you neve r asked what he thought was 22 23 very, very interest i ng info rmati on o n Clint on? A . I do recall and I don ' t know the ti mi ng of 24 it , but I know t here was a lot of t alk about 25 utilizing informat i on fr om the book Clinton Cash . 11 7 1 I don 't know t he exact timing of it, but that could 2 very well be t he t hi ngs t h a t he wanted t o talk 3 about because while it was out there I don 't know 4 it go t t he mai ns tream p i ckup tha t perh aps the 5 campai gn woul d have wanted . 6 reference t o that, but tha t' s speculat i on . 7 remember the e x act timing o f it. 8 9 So t hat coul d be a I don 't Q. In your mind i s it -- he uses t hat term " some thi ng very, very i nt eres ting ." 10 Mr . Goldstone ' s June 3 e - mai l to you says he has 11 something very i nteres ti ng . 12 co i nci dence? 13 A . I think a lot of people would use " very 14 int erest i ng ." 15 co i nci dence . 16 17 18 19 20 I s t hat just a Yes , I think it' s j ust a Q. Do you have any way of knowi ng whether t h a t' s a co inc idence or no t? A . I don 't other than tha t ' s the way my father speaks . Q. J ust briefly returni ng t o the phone l ogs , 21 Ex hibit 11 , the first second page of t hat 22 documen t , 852 , ind i cate s i n the left-hand column 23 " Roaming call de t ail ." 24 A . Le ft - hand column? 25 Q. About halfway down . 11 8 1 A. Okay , ye s . 2 Q. And it has a f ew dates , Wedne s day 6/29 a nd 3 if y ou go on down t he page it says Friday 6 /24, 4 Saturday 6/ 25. 5 outside the United St a t es d uri ng those time 6 perio d s ? Do you recall if y o u travel e d 7 A. So rry. 8 Q. Yes . 9 A. I don't reca ll, but we could find out. 10 Q. Okay . What i s the date a gai n ? 6/29 ? So one date is 6/ 2 9. And t hen it appears that ano t he r 11 t i me period would have been 6/23 , 6/ 24, 6/25 12 potent i ally . 13 Do you re call? A . I ma y have been on vaca ti o n wit h my 14 c hil dren. 15 have taken them to t he Bah ama s at that time. 16 know, it' s a l ong ti me ago and I' m try i ng to 17 remember, but we will find o ut. 18 19 Let me fi nd out f o r c ertain, but I may You Q. You don ' t r e c a ll any particul ar campaign- related t ravel a t that time? 20 A . No, I do n't. 21 MR. FUTERFAS : I just want t o be specifi c . 22 Wha t i s it the Committee i s request ing? 23 like us t o f i nd out if he was ou t of the country 24 during those dates and where? 25 MS. SAWYER : Would you Yes , tha t would be g reat. 119 1 Towar d the e nd o f the June . 2 t h e count ry a ny ot her time f rom t hat mont h. 3 looks from these logs t hat he might have been . 4 BY MS . SAWYER : 5 And if he was out of It Q. Turning now your attent i on on t hat same 6 document to page 857 . These are j ust some calls 7 a n d I 'll just d i rect your a t tent i on t o t he ri ght - 8 hand column on t hat page . 9 t h ere are some call s t hat eve ning . It says Thursday 6/23 Th e fi rst is at 10 7 : 05 p . m., again , it ' s in Arling t on , Virginia , 703 11 number , Mr . Manafort ' s number . 12 speaking to hi m i n connection wi th a ny travel? Do you recal l 13 A . No , I don ' t . 14 Q. The n ext call , 707 , i s an incomi ng cal l 15 from t hat same number . Do you h ave a n y 16 reco ll e c t i on o f talking to Mr . Manafort twice t hat 17 eveni ng? 18 A . I t appears like maybe the r e was a missed 19 call and a follo w- up call , but no , I don ' t r ecall 20 t h a t. 21 Q. And then down the same sheet on Tuesday , 22 6/28 t here ' s t hree call s that a ft ernoon t hat have 23 been unredacted . 24 Mr . Manafo r t ' s numbe r again . 25 speaking wi t h him o n the 28th? One is at 1 : 22 p . m., t hat ' s Do you recall 1 20 1 A. I don't. 2 Q. You don ' t recall speaki ng to him a bout 3 campaign - related tra vel or other travel? 4 A. No , I do n' t . 5 Q. The next ca l l is an i ncoming call and 6 tha t' s Mr . Kushner ' s number . 7 ta l ki ng t o him about anyt hi ng t h at part i cul ar day? 8 A . No . 9 MR . FOSTER : Any recollection of Le t me just n ote f or t he record 10 that Senator Hat ch is present . 11 BY MS . SAWYER : 12 Q. Then do you know who t h at ot h er 3 : 57 p . m. 13 incoming call , 646 area code , do you know wh o t hat 14 is ? 15 A. That ' s my rea l boss . 16 Q. And who is your r eal boss? 17 A . My wi f e . 18 Q. Do you know why her number would be 19 unblocked here? 20 21 22 23 A . I don ' t ot h er than it ' s just -- I h ave no clue . MR . FUTERFAS : I t co uld have been a l aw of fice error . 24 MR . TRUMP : 25 MS . SAWYER : Blame the l awye rs . I thin k our time i s j u s t about 1 21 1 u p f o r thi s hour. So I th i nk we probably s h ould 2 break now a nd t he n give our coll eagues anot h er 3 chance . So we ' ll go off the record at 1 1 : 58 . (A s hort b r eak was had .) 4 5 MR . DAVIS: Back on the record . It' s 12 : 15 6 MR. TRUMP : Could I j us t interject one thing? 7 Heat her, I t ook a coupl e s econds to c h eck o n some 8 of that l ast quest ioning as it rel a ted t o the 9 dates . The e n d o f June I was in Scotland for the 10 openi ng of Turnberry, and I was in the Bahamas with 11 my kids as I had suspected in that last , you know , 12 week of June , fir st coupl e days of July . 13 MS . SAWYER : 14 15 16 Okay . Thanks . FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR . DAVIS : Q . So , Mr . Trump , I b e li eve you genera lly 17 indi cated that a ft e r the meet ing you d idn 't really 18 discuss it o r g i ve it much t hought. 19 became an issue over the summer t his year . 20 d i d it first come back o n your radar as requiring 21 your attention? 22 Obviously it When A . I beli eve I was asked about it as it 23 related t o probably discovery when we were , you 24 know, producing t hings for e ither t his i nqui r y or 25 others i s whe n it f i rst popped back int o my memory . 1 22 1 2 Q. Do you have any sense of whe n tha t wo uld have been ? 3 A. Probably mid, late June . 4 Q. And at the time you i ssued your July 8 th 5 statemen t had you rereviewed t he initial e - mail 6 chain from Mr. Golds t one se tti ng up t he meet ing 7 be f o r e i ssuing t hat s t a t ement? 8 A . I beli eve we did , yes . 9 Q. Do you know if the Preside nt had seen that 10 e - mail chain prior t o t he July 8 statement? 11 A . I don 't know . 12 Q. Now, t here a re a f ew o t her areas I'd like 13 to ask you about that have been reported on and I ' d 14 like you give you a chance t o comme nt. 15 been some reporting about a speech you gave in 16 Oct ober 2016 wit h a think tank called the Center 17 For Politi cal and Foreign Af fair s . 18 how tha t speaking ar r angement came about and what 19 it entailed? 20 There ' s Ca n you explai n A . A person wh o works a t I guess her o wn kind 21 of speaki ng bureau who has booked me for public 22 speaking events over t he years reached out t o me , 23 said that t hi s organization wanted to book me . 24 guess it ' s a Parisian or French t hink tank . 25 They've had speakers such as Kofi Annan , Tony I 1 23 1 Bl a ir, a li s t o f the us ua l suspect s , a nd the y 2 wante d t o get an unders t a ndi ng o f wha t was g o i ng on 3 in t he rat her unusual 201 6 e l ect i on cycl e i n t he 4 Unit ed St a t es . 5 Q . So t o t he bes t of your knowl edg e , you wer e 6 fi rs t cont act ed abou t i t thro ugh t hi s speaker ' s 7 b urea u; i s that correct ? 8 A. Yes . 9 Q . What d id the actua l event invo l ve? 10 Was it a l ect ure y ou gave , a round t able d i scus sion? 11 A. More o f a r ound table d i scuss i on . 12 Q . And i s the di rect o r o f t hat thi n k t ank 13 Fa bi en Baussart ? 14 A . Yes , he i s . 15 Q . And as ide fr om the round t abl e di d you 16 separately mee t wi t h Mr . Baussar t and hi s wi fe? 17 A . Yes , I d i d . 18 Q . At ei ther t he r o u nd t ab l e or your lunch I had lunch with t hem. 19 wi t h t hem was t here any d i scussion o f cooperati ng 20 wit h the Russi an governme nt? 21 A . No . 22 Q . I n the campai g n ? 23 A . No t as it re l ated t o the campaign , no . 24 Q . Were there ge nera l pol i ti cal 25 d i scu ss i ons abo ut geopo liti cs a n d the Unit ed St a t es a nd Russi a ? 1 24 1 2 3 A. Yes , but l ess so Russi a , mo r e as it pertains to Syria because his wife i s Syri a n. Q. And at that event or the lunch was t he r e 4 a ny d i sc uss i o n o f a ny qui d pro quo wit h Ru ss i a a nd 5 the Trump campaign ? 6 A . No . 7 (DJTJR Exhi bit 12 was marked 8 9 10 11 f o r identification . ) BY MR . DAVI S : Q. I ' d like to show an e - mai l chain to you . I'll mark thi s Exhi b it 1 2 . 12 A. Thank you . 13 MR . DAVIS : 14 Does every one have Bate s 7 19 on it as we ll? 15 MR . FUTERFAS : 16 MR . DAVIS : Here ' s 7 1 9 . 17 MR . TRUMP : 19 and 18, I' v e got them bo th . 18 19 20 I have 718. BY MR . DAVIS: Q. Agai n , these are Bat es- numbered TRUMPORG- 30 00 71 8 and 719. 21 A . Yes . 22 Q. Thi s i s a n e - mail exchange be t ween you a n d 23 Jan Jones in April of 2017 ? 24 A . Yes . 25 MR. FUTERFAS : Excuse me a secon d . 1 25 (Whe r e u pon a d i scu ss i o n was had 1 so t t o voce . ) 2 MR. FUTERFAS : 3 4 Sorry . BY MR . DAVI S : Q. And is Jan Jones t he employee with the 5 6 Thank you . speaker ' s bureau tha t you were referencing? 7 A . Yes . 8 Q. Now , on the f i rst e - mail c hronologi cal l y 9 in t hi s chain, it l ooks li ke i t ' s Apri l 23 , 201 7 at 10 3 : 23 p . m., it appears Ms . Jones e - mai led you 11 asking , i n part , "Are you up for doing s omething 12 during t he G7 in Si cily wi th Fabien? 13 thinki ng that with the G7 taki ng place t hat would 14 be t he ' cover ' if we need i t. 15 a l l the backgr ound t hat would need to go int o 16 preparation and making sure there is no blowback in 17 a ny way on you . 18 discrete ." 19 20 We were Fabien unders t ands No photos , no media , everythi ng What did you understand her to mean when she talked about using t he G7 as " cover " ? A . I didn 't. 21 I assume , you know , because of 22 t h e press t ha t t he othe r speech ori g ina l ly h ad 23 got t en I want ed to lay low and not creat e another 24 issue . 25 some thing , I d idn ' t want to crea t e a n unnecessar y Even though it was fine , I want e d to do 1 26 1 i ssue . Q. At this time did you have Secret Service 2 3 pro t ection? 4 A. Thi s is April. Yes , I did. 5 Q. Had you gone to do an event with 6 Mr . Fabien , to the bes t of your knowledge , would 7 the Secret Serv ice h a ve accompani ed you to any s uch 8 event? 9 10 A. Yes , t hey would h ave . Q. So to t he bes t of your knowledge , if you 11 would have pursued another speaking e ngagement with 12 hi m, even if the G7 were cover , while it might have 13 been cover from the media , the Secret Service and , 14 hence, the U.S. Government wo uld have bee n aware of 15 it; is tha t right? 16 A . Yes . 17 Q. Mr . Trump , t here's a l so been some press 18 about a statement you made in 2008 a t a real estate 19 conference in which you s tated " In terms of 20 high- e nd product influx int o the U.S., Russians 21 make up a pretty disproportionate cro ss - section of 22 a lot o f our assets ." 23 meant by that? 24 A . Yeah . 25 Can you explain what you I think as high- end real estat e deve l opers , us or a n y of the o ther peopl e that 1 27 1 b uil d expensi ve condominiums in p l aces li ke 2 New Yor k or Mi ami , there i s a pretty l arge porti o n 3 of foreign nationals , whether it be Russian , 4 Chi nese , Saudi, t ha t buy i n t hose mar ke t s a n d buy 5 luxury condominiums . 6 Q. So were you asserting that there were a 7 numbe r o f Ru ssian c u stomers f or t hese condomi ni ums 8 as opposed to your i nvestors or both? 9 A . We don ' t have a n y Russi an investors . Thi s 10 is purely for the sale of condominiums where we 11 have -- you know, had s ome , but , again , a lot of 12 o u r condomi ni ums , for example , Trump Tower was 13 originally buil t in 1982 it topped out , would have 14 been sol d a nd we wouldn ' t 15 of those tran sact i o n s f r om that poi n t on . 16 buyer wherever t hey ' re from may have been the 17 f i f t h , tenth, f ifteenth owner of a g i ven unit over 18 those 30- somethi ng y ears . 19 have b een in volved in a n y So a Q. There ' s also b een some press about an NRA 20 d i nner you a t tended . 21 To rshin , T- 0 - R- S- H- I -N? 22 A . Yes . 23 Q. Was that a t 24 June of 2016? 25 A . Yes . Do you know Mr . Aleksander I met him at a d i nner . the NRA dinner in I believe 1 28 1 Q. At tha t d in ner d id you discuss with hi m 2 a ny coordi nat i on between the Trump campaign and the 3 Russian government ? 4 A. No, but to clarify, he was not at d i nner 5 with me . 6 dinner with the 30 t op people at the NRA I believe 7 a nd someone wh o had known hi m asked if I wo ul d say 8 hello . 9 10 He was at a t able nearby . So I wasn ' t I was at having dinner with him . Q. Woul d yo u say you had a brief co n versat i on with him , a long one? 11 A. Brief, a few minutes . 12 Q. Do you remembe r at a ll the conte n t of t hat 13 14 15 conversa ti on ? A . I t was the NRA s h ow . I be li eve he ' s a gun e nt husi ast . 16 Q. And did that conversation involve any 17 d i scussion of quid pro q uo be t ween the Russi an 18 government and t he Trump campa i gn? 19 A . None a t all . 20 Q. To the best of your knowledge, d i d anyone 21 from the FBI ever provide what' s referred to as a 22 defensi ve bri e fi ng to the campai gn , a briefi ng 23 where they warn anyone on the campaign t hat foreign 24 intelligence operatives might be trying to 25 infiltra t e ? 1 29 A. No t t hat I' m aware o f, but tha t doesn ' t 1 2 mean they d i d n't do it. 3 Q. And do you know Fel ix Sater? 4 A. I do. 5 Q. Can you descri be your relat i onship wit h 6 him? A. We wo r ked on a few deal s t ogether when he 7 8 was worki ng at t he Bayrock Group . Q. Were t hose deals in the U. S . or in o t her 9 10 countries? A . The deals that got consummated were in the 11 12 U. S . 13 Q. Did you attempt any deals within Russia ? 14 A . We l ooked a t o ne deal I be li eve in 2006 , I 15 believe , but early 2006 . 16 Russia , but it never materialized . 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 We l ooked at one deal in Q. And did you travel to Russia wit h Mr . Sater? A . I didn ' t travel there with him, but I met hi m there . Q. And what did you do with him in Russ i a , to the best o f your recollection? A . We met wi th some g uys that were developers to l o ok a t a po t ential Trump prope r ty in Moscow . Q. Were t hose devel opers privat e compani es or 1 30 1 government a ffili a t es ? 2 A . Pri va te compani es . 3 Q. And what ultimately became of tha t 4 A. No thi ng . 5 Q. What d id you understand -- did Mr . Sater 6 effort? have any role i n the Trump Organization? 7 A. For a time he served as a br oker 8 essenti a lly t ryi ng t o find development deals for us 9 fr om a license perspective , but he was never on the 10 payroll or never served as an ac t ual -- I guess a 11 full - fledged employee . 12 13 Q. Are you aware o f him having any invo l vement i n t he Trump campaign? 14 15 A . I 'm n o t aware o f any in volveme nt of hi s i n the campai g n, no . 16 17 Q. I ' d like to briefly r eturn to t he issue of Mr . Gol ds t o ne and VK . 18 A . Yes . 19 (DJTJR Exhibit 13 was marked 20 21 for i dent ifi cation.) BY MR . DAVI S: 22 23 Q. I have a no t her exhibit here . Thi s wi ll be 13. 24 A . Thank you . 25 Q. Thi s i s a n e - mail exchange Bates- s tamped 1 31 1 DJTJR- 00249 to 25 0 . 2 c h a i n be t ween Mr . Go lds tone and you whi ch the n was 3 f orwarded on to Dan Scavino or lat er involves Dan 4 Scav ino . 5 chronol ogi call y on this chain on p age 250 , it l ooks 6 like Mr . Goldstone e - mailed you CC ' g Rhona Graff on 7 January 1 9th. 8 pit chi ng havi ng your f athe r set up some sort of 9 page on VK . 10 11 It appear s t o be an e - mail Looki ng a t t he first e - mail Again, thi s e - mail seems to be This was January 19t h o f 201 6 . Do you reca ll see i ng this e - mai l a t the t i me? 12 A. I don 't recall seei ng it, no . 13 Q. And do you know if anyone took any a c tion 14 o n it at t he time? 15 A. I don 't know, no. 16 Q. Given t hat s ix mont hs lat e r Mr . Goldstone 17 was s till p u s hi ng the VK i ssue , do you have any 18 reason to believe that this o ffer went anywhere 19 with the Trump Organization? 20 A . I don't, no . 21 Q. And returning back to the meet i ng itse lf, 22 the June 9th meeti ng, wer e yo u aware t hat 23 Mr . Golds t one had apparent ly t agged himself on 24 Facebook a t Trump Tower right befo r e the mee ting 25 began? 1 32 1 A. No , I did n o t, b ut having s ince seen some 2 of hi s social media posts , it doesn 't surpri se me. 3 (DJTJR Exhibit 14 was marked 4 5 6 f o r identifi cation. ) BY MR . DAVIS : Q. I'd like to i ntroduce f or t he r ecord an 7 a rti c l e fr om News Week tha t desc ribes Mr . Go lds tone 8 taggi ng himself on Facebo ok a t Trump Tower shortly 9 be f o r e t he meeting . 10 Thi s will b e Exhibit 14. Generally speaking , d o you be li eve t hat 11 publi c ly t aggi ng yourself in a Facebook post would 12 r epr esent that you we re int ending t o h ave a covert 13 o r secret meeting? 14 A . No t li ke ly, no, but I'm no t a spy . 15 Q. And r e t u rni ng briefly to Mr . Manafort, 16 what was your under s t anding o f how Mr . Manafort 17 ceased to b e affiliated wit h the campa ign? 18 A. I beli eve there was st uff coming ou t about 19 Paul that he deni ed , but he d i dn ' t want to d rag any 20 o t her aspects o f that life i n to t he campaign and 21 the work tha t we were doing . 22 fro m hi s position as campa i gn chairman. 23 So he remov ed himself Q. And d i d he d i scuss wi th you or , to t he 24 bes t of your knowled ge , anyone e l se on t he c ampaign 25 hi s ti es with Ukrainian b u s iness or Russian 1 33 1 int e r est s , hi s a ll eged ti es? 2 A . No , n o t t ha t I r ecall. 3 Q . Do you know Lieut enant General Michael 4 Fl ynn? 5 A. I do . 6 Q . When did you firs t meet him? 7 A . Somewhe r e a l ong t he wa y on the campai g n 8 9 10 t r ai l. Q. What woul d you say was t he na t ure o f you r re l ationship wit h hi m? 11 A. He worked on t he campaign . 12 Q. And were yo u aware o f any t i es , ind irect, 13 pas t or present , bet ween Mr . Flynn and t he Russian 14 government? 15 A . No , I was n o t. 16 Q . Did you ever discuss Russia or Russian 17 int erests with Mr . Fl ynn ? 18 A . Not that I r ecall , no . 19 MR . FOSTER : Can we just return briefly t o 20 t h e i ssue o f t he e - mail c h a i n tha t you Tweet ed o ut 21 and rel eased publ i c ly . 22 abo ut wh en you fir s t 23 So other t han when you r eceived i t a t the t ime back 24 in 2 0 1 6 , after t he mee t ing do you r eca ll l o oki ng 25 back a t We were asking e arli e r re r ev i ewed t hat e - mail chain. t hat chain or revi ewing it f o r any r eason 1 34 1 a t any time f o r the r es t o f the 201 6? 2 3 MR. TRUMP : Th ere was no r eason f o r me t o do that. MR . FOSTE R: 4 So the n we we r e tryi ng t o 5 pi npo i nt maybe when was the fi rs t t i me you went 6 back and rerev i ewed t hat chai n in 2 0 1 7 , and I 7 be li eve y our a nswer earli e r -- f ee l fr ee t o co rrec t 8 me . 9 p repar a ti on f o r p r o d uction o f d o cumen ts o r 10 You t hought you mi ght have rev iewed it i n d i scovery; i s t hat correct ? MR. TRUMP : 11 12 wh a t I said, y es . 13 MR . FOSTER : I be li eve so . I beli eve tha t' s And do you know t o whom t hat 14 d i scover y woul d have been ? 15 be li eve our request was J uly 11t h . MR . TRUMP : 16 I don ' t J u st f o r t he r ecord , I know if i t was for t his . 17 I don 't know if it was f o r s p eci al c ou nse l -- o r 18 speci a l prosecut or ' s i nves ti gation . 19 t i me . 20 exact c hronol ogy, b ut o ne o f those . 21 22 Senat e i n t e l maybe . MR. FOSTE R: I don 't remember t he So it wasn ' t i n regard to commu ni cati o n s with press abo ut t he e - mail ? 23 MR. TRUMP : 24 MR. PRIVOR: 25 Okay . It ' s the f i rs t No , I don ' t believe so . I n p r epar a ti on f or the J u l y 8 s t a t e me nt it was -- t he e - mail chain was r ev i ewed 1 35 1 in preparat i o n f or that statemen t by you ; i s that 2 co rrect? 3 MR . TRUMP : 4 MR . PRIVOR : 5 And you sai d not by the President -- or you don ' t 6 MR . TRUMP : 7 MR . PRIVOR : 8 Yes . reviewed it . I don ' t know know . You don' t k n ow if the Pres i de n t Sorry . But you earlier spoke about the 9 10 s tatemen ts , the July 8 and July 11 statements 11 I ' m not sure which statement you were referring 12 to -- t h at t h e Presi dent ' s team may h ave been 13 involved . 14 Presiden t ' s team saw the e - mail chai n prior to the 15 July 8 statement? 16 17 18 Do you happen t o know if anyone on the MR . TRUMP : I don ' t actually know if they s a w it , no . MR . FOSTER : To the best of your knowledge , 19 how and when did the President or members of his 20 team learn of the e - mail? 21 MR . TRUMP : I don ' t 22 MR . FUTERFAS : know . Let me i n terject for t h e 23 record , I t hink it ' s wo rth doing , t hat at some 24 po int obviously counsel and various people became 25 aware o f vari ous inves ti gatio n s and documen ts began 1 36 1 to be co ll ected a nd reviewed in res pon se to t hose 2 in vest i gat i o n s . 3 in t erms of his knowledge when he saw something , 4 there was a l ot of i nteract i o n wit h counsel go ing 5 back some period , but I th ink what I' ve said a nd I 6 think what Mr . Trump has said is that sometime in 7 J u ne would p r obabl y make sense or maybe even -- we 8 haven ' t 9 publicly aware there we r e var i o u s inve s tigation s So I don't k now what you 're asking time li ned it, but cert ai nly when we became 10 documents b egan to be assembled and things like 11 that 12 BY MR . DAVIS: 13 Q. Were you aware of any communication 14 be t ween anyone on the Trump campaign and WikiLeaks? 15 A. I got a few di r ec t messages from t h em 16 asking me , I bel i eve , if I would l eak his tax 17 return. 18 was , hey , when I am I going to receive t he next 19 leak . 20 sort of passi n g alon g news , hey , you may want to 21 Tweet this , this wou ld be of interest probably with 22 some sor t of admi n t here . 23 24 25 I thi nk t he only time I responded t o the m And they would reach out on a few occasions Q. Were these -- you said direct messages . On what -A . Twitt er . 1 37 Q. Do you s till h a ve copi es o f t hese 1 2 messages? 3 A . I should . 4 Q. Wo uld you be willi ng t o provide them t o 5 the Committ ee ? 6 A . Sure . 7 Q. Yo u said they said you may want to Tweet 8 this . Do you remember any specific i ns t ances? A. I belie ve once -- I mean, 9 I' d be 10 speculat ing . If you give me a little chrono logical 11 leeway , I believe they initially reached out to me 12 t o possi bly distribute informat i on abou t my 13 father ' s tax return to clear up t hose is sues . 14 they -- I'd be guessi ng . 15 f or you. Why don 't I just get it Q. And you said you thought it was some sort 16 17 o f admin. 18 themsel ves? Di d t he person i nvol ved ever identify 19 A . I bel i eve on one occasion they did . 20 Q. And do you remember wh o t hey said t hey 21 22 Then were? A. It was a l ady that appeared t o work a t a 23 law firm , if I r ecal l correctly . 24 Q. Not Mr . Assange ? 25 A. No . I've n eve r communi cat ed with him 1 38 1 2 3 4 directl y t hat I' m awar e o f. Q. And d id you ever Tweet any o f t he t hi ngs they recommended Tweet i ng ? A. The one time I be li eve I r espond ed I ha d 5 alread y re -Twee t ed what they had put out o r what 6 they had sugges t ed f or me t o put out, but I would 7 througho ut the co urse a nd eve n r ece ntly I would 8 occas i onall y re -Twee t Wi kiLeaks , yes . 9 Q. Beyond those direct messages you ha d with 10 Wiki Leaks , were you awar e of anyone else on t he 11 Tr ump camp a i gn or wi thi n the Trump Organi zati o n 12 communi cating with Wi ki Leaks ? 13 A . No , I was not . 14 Q. And d i d you have any r easo n t o beli eve 15 tha t Wi kiLea ks was wo r king with, whether directly 16 o r indirectl y , any foreign government? 17 A . No , I do no t. 18 Q. Were you aware of any communi cat ions 19 between any one at the Trump campai gn or the Trump 20 Or ganiza t io n and Guccifer 2. 0 ? 21 A . No . 22 Q. And i n t e rms o f i nt e r ac ti o n s be t ween Trump 23 campai gn personnel and Russian government 24 of fi cials , what t ypes of int e r ac ti ons were you 25 aware o f? 1 39 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A. Trump campa i gn of fi c i als a nd Russian government per sonne l? I was aware o f none . Q. Have you seen pr ess report s about various meetings such as with Ambassador Ki s lyak ? A . If I could scratch my l as t stat ement , yes , I did read about that after the fact . Q. Were y o u aware of t hose a t the time t hey occurred , to the best of your knowledge? A. I knew o f something . I be li eve there was 10 a meeting there . 11 yes , I be li eve I was aware that it had occurred . 12 I wasn 't part of the meeting , but Q. Bac k i n the time frame of your June 9 , 13 2016 mee ti ng wit h Mr . Golds t one , had you rece i ved 14 any gui dance from the Trump campaign about meetings 15 wit h forei g n o ffi c ial s? 16 A . No , no t tha t I recall . 17 Q. And are you aware o f any coor d i nati on 18 be t ween anyone on the Trump campaign or with i n the 19 Tr ump Organization and the Russian government 20 regarding the 201 6 elect io n ? 21 A . No , I ' m no t. 22 MR. FOSTER : You were asked earlier if, t o 23 your knowledge , anyone at t he campaign had ever 24 rece i ved what's known as a defensive bri efing from 25 the FBI a b o ut peopl e who mi ght be tryi ng to 1 40 1 infi l t rate t he campa i gn , and I be li eve your answer 2 was t hat , to your kn owl edge , you weren't aware o f 3 any such briefing . 4 rega rdl ess o f whet her i t was a de f e n s i ve bri e fing 5 or a ny other parti cu l ar kind of contact , are yo u 6 aware of any other FBI contacts wi t h yourself or 7 wi th the c a mpaign in 20 16? 8 MR . TRUMP : 9 MR . FOSTER : 10 Were you awa r e of any -- No . 12 : 41 . 11 12 13 (A short break was had . ) MS . SAWYER : 16 We ' re going back o n the rec ord . It ' s 12 : 5 0 . 14 15 Le t' s go off the rec ord at FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MS . SAWYER : Q. Mr . Trump , you and your counsel had 17 i n dicat e d t hat you would want to have your 18 statemen t ent ered int o the record as an e xhibit . 19 So I jus t wanted to take care of that quickly 20 be f o r e we started . 21 Exhibit 15 . 22 A . Than k you . 23 (DJTJR Exhi bi t 1 5 was marke d 24 25 So it will b e marked as f or identifi cation . ) BY MS . SAWYER : 1 41 1 Q. Yo u menti o n ed dur i ng the conversat i on wit h 2 my co ll eagues t hat y ou had become awar e o f a 3 mee ti ng or meetings wi t h Ambassador Kislyak . 4 you jus t explai n li ke wha t meet i ngs d i d you become 5 aware of? 6 Can When did they take pl ace ? A . I don't remember t he exact t iming of when 7 they took p l ace . I bel i eve it was a ft er we had 8 already s ecured -- meaning a ft er the e l ect ion, but 9 I coul d be mi s t aken. The only reason I'm aware of 10 it is because it occurred i n my o ffi ce . 11 back from the gym and t hey were i n there . 12 I came Q. So wh en you say a ft er the e l ection, you 13 mean aft er November 8 , 201 6? 14 A . I belie ve so . 15 Q. Was it a mee t i ng i n December o f 2016? 16 A . That would fi t the description , yes , I 17 be lieve so . 18 Q. So it was a meeting in Trump Tower ? 19 A . Yes . 20 Q. I n yo ur o ffi ce but you hadn't known about 21 it beforehand? 22 A . Co rrec t. 23 Q. Do you know why they u sed your o f f i ce? 24 A . It was open , I was a t the gym . 25 Q. And who was in t h a t mee ti ng? 14 2 1 2 3 4 A. I beli eve it was J a r ed Kushner , the Ambassado r, maybe Fl ynn , b ut I don 't remember . Q. Anyone else , t o the bes t of your reco llec ti o n ? 5 A . No , no t t hat I r ecall. 6 Q. Was the mee ti ng s t ill ong o ing when you 7 returned? 8 A . I beli eve it was , yes . 9 Q. Did you go i n a nd j o in t he mee ting? 10 A . No , I did not . 11 Q. Why no t? 12 A. Because I didn 't know what it was about 13 14 and I wa s sweaty from t he gym . Q. Did you ask Mr . Kus h ner or Lieut e nant 15 Gene ral Flynn a bout t he meeting a ft er? 16 A . No , I d on ' t think I did . 17 Q. Did you have a n y i n t e rac ti o n wi th 18 19 20 21 Ambassador Kislyak y ourself? A . None t hat I recall, but that doesn ' t mean we didn 't s hake hands or some thi ng . Q. As ide from t hat we r e the r e any othe r 22 meeting s t hat any member o f the campai gn or t he 23 Tr ump Organi za tion had wi th Ambassador Kislyak tha t 24 you ' re awar e o f? 25 A . No ne t hat I recal l, no . 1 43 Q. And do you know -- d i d you a s k or do you 1 2 kn ow wh a t was discussed d u r i ng that mee ting? 3 A . I do no t. 4 Q. Do you k n ow whether -- s tri ke t hat. 5 You know , I had as ked you a b out 6 means o f communicati ng . 7 at 8 messaging c harges . 9 we ll t o communi cat e? some of your I d i dn 't ask and looking t he phone l og it reminded me . It h as t e xt So you used t ext me s saging as 10 A . Yes . 11 Q. And did you u s e any par ti cul ar messagi ng 12 apps? Do you use Si gnal ? 13 A . I don 't hav e Signal , no . 14 Q. Do y ou use Snapch a t? 15 A. I don't do Snapch a t, no. 16 I h ave e n ough forms of soci a l media . 17 Q. What abo ut WhatsApp? 18 A . Yes , I use WhatsApp . 19 Q. Did you use that f or campai gn purposes ? 20 A . No t t hat I recal l. I' m not s ure I downl oaded it 21 adapter t o WhatsApp . 22 until a ft er the campai g n. 23 24 25 Q. Okay . I was a pretty lat e And so when do you bel i eve t hat you started using WhatsApp? A . I s till do n't r eally use it r egul arly . 144 1 I'd be guessing . I don 't know. 2 Q. And do you know if Wh atsApp was -- your 3 messaging on the app was rev i ewed as part of the 4 producti on to t he Committ ee? 5 A . I don 't know . 6 MS . SAWYER : 7 MR. FUTERFAS : 8 9 10 Could you jus t make sure it is . Okay . BY MS . SAWYER: Q. Besi des What sApp , do you use any other messaging apps? FrozenChat? 11 A. No . 12 Q. ChatSecure , anythi ng e l s e? 13 A . No . 14 Q. We tal ked about your p h one u sage . Have 15 y ou ever used a prepaid p h one? 16 A . No , I have no t. 17 Q. Di d you u se anybody e l se ' s p h one o t her 18 than yours for campa i gn purposes? 19 A . No t that I'm aware of . 20 Q. You d idn 't use your wife' s p h one? 21 A . No . 22 Q. In t erms o f -- you mentioned Twitt er , 23 maybe OM private messages . Could you also j us t 24 make sure t hose are searched as well for mat e r i al 25 r espo n s i ve t o t he committ ee ' s request. 145 1 MR. FUTERFAS : 2 MS. SAWYER : 3 MR . FUTERFAS : 4 MS. SAWYE R: 5 6 8 BY MS . SAWYER : 11 12 13 Did you say s omething else? I t hin k direc t messaging i s a MR . FUTERFAS : lot about it. 10 Twitter. mechanism on Twit ter f o r communicating . 7 9 Twitt er? Yo u can t ell I know an awful Q. Do you have a home landli ne? A . I bel i eve I do , but I don ' t even know the numbe r of it. Q. Do you know if you u sed it for campa i g n purposes? 14 A . No . 15 MR . PRI VOR: Mr . Trump , you mentione d t hat 16 you ' re not a regular user o f WhatsApp . 17 infre q uent u s er o f it? 18 MR . TRUMP : Are you an I guess I use it infrequently . 19 Peopl e have cont acted me on it, but like I s aid , 20 it' s somet hing I woul d have done probably in the 21 l as t few months. 22 l onge r. 23 24 25 MR. PRIVOR: I may have had it a little bit Do you know if anybody c ontac ted you via WhatsApp relat e d to campaign matt e r s ? MR. TRUMP : I don ' t b e li eve so , but I'll go 14 6 1 back and check. 2 BY MS . SAWYER: 3 4 Q. What about related to the issue of Russian interference i n the 2016 election? 5 A . No . 6 Q. How about FBI Director Corney ' s firing? 7 A. Not that I recall, no . 8 Q. What about Lieutena nt General Flynn ' s 9 resignation or anything about hi s relationship with 10 the c ampaign or administration ? 11 A . I don 't beli eve so , no . 12 Q. And just briefly, you were asked by my 13 colleagues about the s t atements made about the 14 meeting , the June 9th meeting . 15 you thought your father may have communicated 16 changes t hrough Hope Hicks . 17 18 You had indicated Who is Hope Hicks? A . She is , I guess , the communi cati o n s dire ctor now . 19 Q. Fo r the White House now? 20 A . Correct. 21 Q. Who else , to the b e st of your knowledge , 22 was involved i n the drafting of those s t atement s? 23 A. I believe all counsel . 24 MR . FUTERFAS : 25 BY THE WITNESS: Ju s t your bes t recollection. 1 47 1 2 3 A . My understanding i s tha t co un se l was in vo l ved . Q. Counsel , Hope Hicks , your father . 4 e l se at t he Whit e House? 5 MR . FUTERFAS : Anyone Let me ask for a po i nt of 6 clarificat ion . 7 sayi ng yo ur own coun se l or a r e yo u sayi ng counsel 8 for your father? 9 MR . TRUMP : 10 11 12 13 14 When you ' re saying counsel , are you Both . BY MS . SAWYER : Q. So your personal counse l and who would those indi v i d u als h ave been? A . The two gen tl emen sitting at the table wit h u s here t oday . 15 Q. Mr . Futerfas a n d Mr . Gart e n ? 16 A . Yes . 17 Q. And you said your father ' s counsel. 18 Wh o would that have been? 19 A . It ' s a big t eam . I don ' t 20 Q. You don ' t know? 21 A . No . 22 Q. Was it Mr. McGahn? 23 A . I don 't know . 24 Q. Would it have poss i bly been Mr . Cobb? 25 A . I don't kn ow if that was before hi s time I don ' t know . know . 1 48 1 or no t. 2 3 So I don 't know . Q . And anyo ne e l se n o t o n t he l awye r s i de from t he Whi t e House involved? 4 A. No t t o my r eco ll ecti o n. 5 Q . And anyone other t han the lawyers you ' ve 6 ment ioned on your s i de involved in draft ing it? 7 A . No . 8 Q . Did you see the fina l -- the origi nal 9 fi nal s t a t ement be f ore it wen t out? 10 A . Yes , I did . 11 Q . You approved i t? 12 A. Yes , I di d . 13 Q. And then the second sta t ement , did you see 14 t h a t before i t we nt out ? 15 A. Yes . 16 Q. And you approved that ? 17 A . Yes . 18 MR . FUTERFAS : Ju s t for a point of 19 c l ari fication , I think at that time i n July members 20 o f t he Kasowi tz fi rm were representing Presi dent 21 Trump . 22 BY MS . SAWYER : 23 Q. So it could have been Mr . Kasowitz? 24 A . I think tha t t iming still makes sense in 25 my recoll ect i on . 14 9 1 MS . SAWYE R: We 're going t o s hift gear s a 2 littl e bit . My coll eague Brian Privor is going to 3 ask you additional questions . 4 to hi m. 5 6 7 So I' ll t urn it over EXAMINATION BY MR . PRI VOR : Q. Le t' s start with the Mis s Uni verse Pageant 8 in 2013 . You s t ated that you did not a tt end the 9 pagean t . Were yo u i n Russia at t he ti me? 10 A . No , I was not . 11 Q. Where were you at the t i me? 12 A. I don't kno w, b ut probably New York . 13 Q. Any reason you didn 't go to the pageant ? 14 A . I t wasn ' t a big part of our bus iness . 15 Q. Fabi en Baussart , you testifi ed e arli er 16 about him . You mentioned that you were 17 parti c ipating in a r ound t able discussion wit h him 18 and o ther participan t s on t he round t able , you had 19 lunch and dinner with Mr . Baussart and his wi f e ? 20 A . Correct. 21 Q. Did you have any o t her meetings with 22 Mr. Baussart or hi s wi f e after that round table 23 discussion? 24 A . No , I did not . 25 Q. We saw some e-mails ear li er where Jan 150 1 Jones was trying to make an arrangement a nd we 2 discussed the G7 meeting. 3 ever arranged? No other meetings we re 4 A. No . 5 Q. Did any meeting ever ge t arranged and you 6 subsequently canceled or didn't at t end? 7 A. No . 8 Q. We 've been talking earl i er about different 9 b u siness connections wit h Russia and our coll eagu es 10 referred to a s t atement that you made a t the 2008 11 Ci t yscape USA Bridging U. S . and Emerging Real 12 Estat e Markets Co nference . 13 you mentioned disproportionate share o f the assets 14 coming from Russia , and I t h ink you referred to 15 tha t as referring to pur c h ases of condos as opposed 16 to investments in the underlying development 17 projects ? This is the quote wh ere 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Have there been any Russian investors in 20 any o f the underlying development project s t hat you 21 can recall? 22 A. No , n o t that I can reca ll. 23 Q. The Trump Organization in addi t ion t o 24 25 buildings develops golf courses ; i s that right? A. Correct. 151 1 2 Q. Has there been a ny Russ i an investment in a ny of the golf courses? 3 A . No. 4 Q. Yo u h ave two golf co urses in Dubai. 5 Either of those involve Russian i nvestors? 6 A . Those are set up as licensing deals , but I 7 don 't bel i eve so . They are owned by DAMAC , a 8 publicly traded company in the UAE , but no , no t to 9 my knowledge . Those are n ot our gol f courses . Q. And we ' ve been talking about Russian 10 11 investors . How about any other i nvestors fr om the 12 former Soviet Repu bli c , have a ny o f them been 13 investors in any of your development projects t hat 14 you 're aware o f? 15 A. Where we are the developer, n o . 16 Q. How about whe r e it's a licensing deal , are 17 you aware of i ns tances where Russian s or former 18 Sov iet Republic investors are involved in the 19 development side of the deal? 20 A . None that I can recall, but t here may be 21 small 22 f or what . 23 them were done by larger institutions, but I'm not 24 aware of any , no . 25 we 're not in charge of who does financing I would probably k now it a nd most o f MR. FUTERFAS: Le t me have one minute before 152 1 your nex t ques tion. 2 (Whe r eupon a di scussion was h a d 3 s o t to voce . ) MR. FUTERFAS: 4 5 I'm so rry. BY MR . PRI VOR : 6 Q . You j us t s t a t ed , Mr . Tr ump, that y o u 're 7 not r espons i b l e f or determining who the investors 8 are i n the development si de o f the dea l; is that 9 rig h t? 10 A . If i t ' s a licensed deal whereby someone i s 11 taki ng our b r and and putt ing i t on a buil ding and 12 we a r e n ot the developer, correc t, we would no t be 13 in charge o f f i nancing. 14 deals wo uld ha ve -- were done by reput a bl e 15 in s tituti ons , but tha t doesn 't mean there ' s no t 16 someone -- I just want to be cl ear that doesn 't 17 mean the re's someon e t hat doesn't have half a 18 pe r ce nt s t ake , came in on a mez loan l a t er on, and 19 could then say , well, we were an inves t or i n t he 20 project . 21 So , aga i n , mos t o f t hose That's poss ibl e , but I'm not aware o f it. Q . So you 're not r esponsible for identifying 22 the investors . Do you t ake a n int eres t -- you 23 meaning, broadly speaking , t he Trump Organi zation, 24 d o yo u t ake an i n t eres t in who the inv es t o r s are i n 25 a de vel opme nt dea l when you ' re just li c en s in g? 153 1 A. I would say we take an int e r es t in t he 2 peopl e who are ultimately our partners as bes t we 3 can , but , you know , again , partnership and t he 4 financing the r e would be different. 5 that involved in the financing s ide of t hings . 6 7 We wouldn 't be Q. And by partners you ' re including t he developer? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What sort of due diligence do you do o n 10 your par t ners when you 're go i ng t o have a licensing 11 deal? 12 A. Depends on t he deal. 13 Q. Le t's t ake -- well, let ' s back up a little 14 bit. We t a lked earlier, you spoke wit h o ur 15 colleague s about a gentleman named Felix Sater? 16 A . Correct. 17 Q. Who is Mr . Sater again? 18 A. He was a gentleman that worked at the 19 Bayrock Group . 20 deal tha t we h ad worked o n i n Fort Lauderdal e as 21 well as Trump Soho. They were partners of ours on a 22 Q. How d id you fir st come to know Mr . Sater? 23 A . I believe it was early 2000s , probably 24 t a lking about the Fort Lauderdale deal as I believe 25 that was the first deal we did wit h them. 154 1 2 Q. And h ow i s it tha t you came t o k now hi m wit h re spect t o that par t i cul a r deal? 3 A . I don't remember . 4 Q. Do you k now who approached wh om? 5 A. I don 't. 6 Q. Do you recall who t he developer was f o r 7 8 9 the Fort La uderda l e dea l ? A. Ultima t ely a gentleman name d Roy Sti llman I t hink be came the primary devel oper there . 10 Q. Did it also invol ve the Bayrock Group? 11 A. Yes , they had a p iec e of that deal . 12 Q. And Mr. Sate r was i nvol ved? 13 A . Yes . 14 Q. Was h e affiliated with t he Bayro ck Group 15 at t he time? 16 A . I believe so . 17 Q. Do you k now what his role was ? 18 A . I beli eve he ran a lot of their 19 development operations in the U. S . 20 Q. Is he a seni or member of the team? 21 A . Yes . 22 Q. Woul d yo u call hi m a princi pa l a t t he 23 24 25 Bayroc k? A . I don 't know t heir financ i a l s t ruct ure . So I mean, pri ncipal in terms o f owne r ship I do n't 155 1 kn ow, bu t yes, I beli eve h e was i n c harge o f their 2 U.S. development s . 3 4 Q . And you don 't recall who actually brought the Fort Lauderdale deal to you? 5 A. No, I don 't. 6 Q . When you f i rs t started doing business with 7 Mr. Sater did you do any sort of background check 8 on him or any due diligence on h i m? 9 10 A. I don't recall. Q . Do you typically do background checks on 11 people that you ' re going to partner with in real 12 estat e deals? 13 A . Yes . 14 Q. And what do you do typically f or a 15 16 17 backgrou nd c h eck? A . Usually go through some s o rt of agency that specialize s in those kinds of thi ngs . 18 Q . Like a Billite r? 19 A . I don 't remembe r the names of t he 20 agenci es . I don ' t do it myself. 21 Q . Who does that? 22 A. Vari ous peopl e wit hi n the organi z at i on . 23 Q . Do you have a particular group that 24 25 handles t hat? A. No , n o t a parti cular group . 1 56 1 2 3 Q. It' s sort o f a ll hands on deck to r un backgrou nd c hecks? A . I don 't know if that ' s an accurate 4 descri pt i on , but t here are peopl e . Usuall y a 5 lower-level guy on the team would look , you know , 6 and s t ar t t he process of doing a background check . 7 Q. Do you k now if a nybody at the Trump 8 Orga ni za t ion knew Mr . Sater before you first d i d 9 bu siness wit h him? 10 A . I don 't believ e that they did , no . 11 Q. Do you know if Michael Cohen had any 12 relati o n ship wi t h Mr . Sat er before you did busi ness 13 with him? 14 A . I thi nk we did busi ness wi th Mr . Sa t er 15 be f o r e we met Michael Cohen , but I could be 16 mistaken . 17 18 Q. Do you recall when Mr . Cohen j oi ned the Trump Organization? 19 A . Maybe 2006 or ' 7 , some thing l i ke that . 20 Q. Did Mr . Sat er ever work for t he Trump 21 Organiza t i on himself direc t ly? 22 A . Not as a n empl oyee , no . 23 Q. Were you aware that he carried a business 24 card tha t showed his association with the Trump 25 Organiza t io n ? 157 1 A. I' ve s i nce see n that, yes . 2 Q. Do you k now why he had a business card 3 identifying himself as a member of the Trump 4 Organization? 5 A. I don 't. 6 Q. Do you have any idea how he go t that 7 bus i ness card? 8 A. I don 't. 9 Q. I f I wanted t o get a business card that 10 says I work for the Trump Organization, I'm a 11 senior advisor to now the President , would I have 12 to go through somebody at the Trump Organization to 13 do that? 14 A . Presumably , yes. 15 Q. And who would that be? 16 A . I don 't know . 17 Q. I think we discussed earlier a trip to 18 Russia where you met Mr . Sater there; is that 19 right ? 20 A . Correct . 21 Q. What were the circumstance s in which you 22 23 had met him in Russi a? A . I believe he wanted to show us a po t ential 24 real estat e deal that could be a Trump-brande d 25 building in Moscow. 158 1 Q. Li ke a Trump Tower in Mo scow? 2 A. Co rrec t. 3 Q. Did anyone else at t end your trip -- j oin 4 you o n tha t trip? 5 A . I beli eve my si s ter was with me . 6 Q. Your s ist er being I vanka ? 7 A. Co rrec t. 8 Q. And that pa rt i cular Trump Tower deal never 9 came t o fr uiti on ; is t hat right? 10 A . That ' s correct. 11 Q. Did there e ver come a t i me t hat you became 12 13 14 15 16 aware t h at Mr . Sat er had a c rimi nal hi s tory? A . Yes . I ' ve read t hat since . I don ' t remember when. Q. Is tha t something t hat you l earne d recently or i n years past? 17 A . I don't recall. 18 Q. You had men ti oned t he Trump Soho pro j ect . 19 I s t ha t one that you had put toge ther with 20 Mr . Sater ? 21 A . Amo ngs t others , yes . 22 Q. Di d t hat a l so involve t he Bayrock Group? 23 A . It did . 24 Q. Do you know how that parti cul ar proj ect 25 was fir s t conceived? 15 9 1 A. Yes . Bayrock Group I be li eve purchased 2 the l a nd that t he building now sits o n. 3 flipped a lot of tha t project af t er sec uring I 4 think deve l opment right s f or essentially what i s 5 now the buildi ng to another partner , stayed in it , 6 and brought us in ultimately f or design expertise , 7 managing o f the hot e l tha t was put o n the s it e , 8 aesthetic compo nents , et cetera . 9 10 They the n Q. Who ultimately served as the developer of that project ? 11 A . I believe i t was the Sapir Organization . 12 Q. I ' m sorry? 13 A . Sapir Organization, S- A- P-I-R . 14 Q. Who i s the Sapir Organiza ti o n? 15 A. They 're a deve lopmen t group and owner o f 16 17 18 lots of buildings in New York Ci t y . Q. Do you k now who t he pri ncipal of the Sapir Organization is? 19 A . I bel i eve it ' s Alex Sapir . 20 Q. How do you know him? 21 A . I've known Alex thr ough New York a nd his 22 23 24 25 f ather li ved i n Trump Tower. Q. Was the Bayrock Group also involved i n the Trump Soho? A. Yes , t hey were . 160 1 Q. Do you recall wha t the b as i c structure of 2 that particul ar deal was in terms of , you know, 3 what was the equity and debt, the basic outli nes of 4 tha t? 5 A . I gues s there were three princ ipal, you 6 know, equi t y partners , tha t would have been us wi th 7 a small e r stake , Sapir Organizat i on and Bayrock. 8 There was debt a s wel l as mezzan ine financing I 9 guess ahead of all o f that. 10 11 Q. You mentioned that the Trump Organization had a small portion of the equi ty? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. Did you actually contribut e capital f or 14 the equity? 15 A. We did not . 16 Q. But you had a share of t he equity f or 17 purposes of the capit a l s tructure distributions? 18 A . Correct. 19 Q. How d id you come t o have -- " you ," meaning 20 the Trump Orga nizati on , how did you come to have a 21 shar e of the equity in that deal? 22 23 24 25 A. Because we brought o ur expertise to t he project and we t ook it as equi ty rather than fees . Q. We re you personally involved in that particul ar p roject? 161 1 A. I was . 2 Q. What was your role? 3 A . I don't know tha t I had a defined role , 4 but I was invo lved in aspects of the des i g n, 5 ul timate l y i nvo l ved in aspects of management of the 6 hotel primarily because our b i gges t asp ect woul d be 7 the management and sub sequent management of t he 8 ho t e l once it was bu ilt and under opera tion . 9 Q. Did you have an equity s t ake i n the 10 pr o j ect as well personally? 11 A. Yes . 12 Q. Was that through an entity? 13 A . Yes . 14 Q. Is tha t Donka So ho Member? 15 A. Yes , it i s . 16 Q. What ' s your s i ster ' s r ole i n the 17 My s i ster and I had a small stake . project? 18 A . Same . 19 Q. Did you receiv e any i ncome o r salary o r 20 o t her f e e s other than your equity interest? 21 A . No , not that I remember . 22 MR. FUTERFAS : 23 Before you ask your ne xt question , can I j ust consult? 24 MR . PRIVOR: Of cour se . 25 MS. SAWYER : While we have a pause I also had 162 1 meant to me nti oned earli e r that we 've bee n joined 2 by Senator Whit ehouse. 3 MR . FUTERFAS : 4 Okay . (Whe r e upon a d i scus s i o n was ha d 5 6 7 Sorry t o int errupt you . so t to voce . ) BY MR . PRI VOR : Q. Yo u mentioned there wa s a l so fi nanc i ng , 8 poss i bly mezzanine fi nance involved i n that. Who 9 secured the fi nancing for t ha t deal , do you recall? 10 A . I don 't. 11 Q. Do you know who suppli ed the debt s i de of 12 13 the deal? A . I bel i eve iSt a r was i n t here somewhere I 14 think as t he mez, a nd I don ' t r ecall exactly who 15 ha d the construction lender s truct u r e . 16 17 Q. Were there any domestic banks involved providing fi na ncing? 18 A . I don 't remember . 19 Q. Do you reca ll if there were any for e i gn 20 21 banks prov i d ing a ny o f the fi nancing? A . I don 't remember the s tructure . I t hin k 22 if iSt a r was i n the re that ' s a U. S .-based mez fund. 23 So t hey would have been in t her e , but I don 't 24 remember the construct i on s i de of i t . 25 Q. Did you do any due diligence on Bayroc k 163 1 be f o r e entering a development deal wit h them? 2 A. Again, I don 't know that they were the 3 principal deve loper. I don 't know if we did 4 additi o n a l diligence because we 'd a lready been 5 partners with them before that. 6 Q. How about the Sapir Organi zat ion? 7 A. I don't remember . 8 MR. FUTERFAS : 9 (Whereupon a discussion was had 10 11 One second . so t to voce . ) BY MR . PRI VOR : 12 Q. I had asked you a f ew moments ago whet her 13 you c ame t o learn of Mr . Sater' s criminal history 14 a nd, I'm sorry , I don 't recall -- you did know of 15 it a t some poi nt? A . I did . 16 17 18 I just don 't remember when I found out . Q. Do you r e call any meetings concerning 19 Mr. Sater's criminal history having been discovered 20 wit h respect to the Soho development? 21 A . Not tha t I recall , no . 22 Q. Do you recall a ny instance in whi c h the 23 equity s t ructure of t he deal had changed on account 24 of Mr . Sater ' s criminal history? 25 A. I don't, no . 1 64 1 Q. Do you k now if the financing was eve r 2 c h anged o n account o f Mr. Sater ' s c rimina l hi s t o ry? 3 A . Not that I recall , no . 4 Q. Do you k now whether the re was any e ff o rt 5 to notify the l enders or the mezzani ne finan ce with 6 respect t o Mr . Sater ' s c ri minal his tory? 7 A. No , I do n't. 8 Q. I f you want ed to f i nd that out , who would 9 you ask? 10 A . Presumably t he lenders . 11 Q. We could ask t he lenders . Who was in the 12 Trump Organiza t io n who would know if anyo ne fr om 13 Tr ump had noti f ied the lenders ? 14 A . Again, s ince we were n' t t he lead deve l oper 15 it likely wouldn 't h ave come fr om us . 16 have come t hat way . 17 go t hrough the Sapir Organ ization b ecause I t hink 18 they were lead . 19 20 We wouldn't So it would probably have to Q. Do you know if your father had ever come to learn t hat Mr . Sater had a cr iminal history? 21 A . I don 't know . 22 Q. Was t here ever a ny effort t o disgui se 23 Mr . Sater ' s involvement in t he project t hat you ' re 24 aware of? 25 A . No t t hat I' m aware o f, no . 165 1 2 Q. Do you recall when the Trump Soho building began se lling co ndomi niums ? 3 A . Well , let me keep it general. 4 Q. Okay . 5 A . Meaning ' 8 or ' 9 probab l y . 6 Q. So after t he real es t ate crash or market 7 Late 2000 . crash , general ly speaking? 8 A . During , after , yeah . 9 Q. And what happe ned on account o f the market 10 environment? Were you abl e to se ll the condos? 11 A . Sales became quite slow . 12 Q. Were t here any restrictions on selli ng of 13 condos as compared t o a conventional condomini um in 14 New York? 15 A. There ' s u s ua lly release pri ces impo sed by 16 the l enders . 17 benchmark per square fo ot pri ce so that the ir 18 cont ribu ti on is secu r ed by t hose sales . 19 20 So you can 't sell below a sort of Q. We re there restricti ons due to residentia l zoning agreement s or requirement s ? 21 A . Can you please just rep hrase the ques ti on? 22 Q. We r e t he r e any -- let me start over . 23 there any residential zoning res t rictions on 24 selling t hese condos to the publ i c ? 25 A . Ther e we r e restriction s placed on t he Were 1 66 1 condominium tha t it co uldn't serve as a pure 2 condominium. 3 that means to a buyer , think of it if you bought 4 unit 502 , yo u own a one - bedroom ho t e l 5 manage it for you , you own the revenues associ ated 6 therewith , you can use it when you ' re i n town , but 7 you can't s tay t her e f o r more than 30 days i n a 8 row, X number of days i n a year . 9 ordi nanc e was put in place t o preve nt a s ort o f It was a hotel - condomini um . So wha t unit. We 'll I t h ink the 10 tro j an horse where you say y ou ' re b uil ding a hotel, 11 bu t you ' re actually bui l d i ng a condomini um in t hat 12 zoni ng market. 13 Q. Okay . So t hat' s a restriction that would 14 have been communicat ed t o any b uyer or perspecti ve 15 b uye r? 16 A . Yes . 17 Q. Di d t hat hampe r sales o f the condomi niums? 18 A . I think it ' s a restriction tha t we a ll It limits the marke t in 19 understood going int o it . 20 t h a t you're l ooki ng for a pied- a -t e rre-type b uyer , 21 someone li kely not from New Yor k Ci ty because the y 22 can 't li ve the re 365 days a year , but it was what 23 was needed to make t he p roj ect f eas i ble . 24 25 Q. Gi ven t hat you ' re no t looking t ypi c a ll y f or a New Yo rk buyer , d oes tha t mean you were 1 67 1 l ooking f or overseas i nvesto r s? 2 A . For overseas , o u t 3 visit New York . Q. Who was respon s i b l e f or the mar keti ng of 4 5 o f state , peopl e who that projec t ? 6 A . A group cal led Prodigy . 7 Q. Wher e i s Pr odi gy based? 8 A . I bel ieve they ' re based in New York and 9 Mi ami . 10 11 12 Q. Do you know who the principals o f Prodigy are? A . At the t i me I bel ieve it was a gent leman 13 name d Rodrigo Nino . 14 Q. Who i s he? 15 A . He ' s a real estat e broker in New York t hat 16 ran Prodigy . 17 Q. Do you k n ow whet h er -- what t he proport i on 18 of buyers f o r that part icular devel opment we r e tha t 19 were foreign versus U. S .-based buye rs ? 20 A . I don't. 21 Q. Is that a r eco rd t hat the Trump 22 23 24 25 Or ganiza t io n would keep track o f ? A . I imagine t he sales agent would keep t rack of t hat , not us . Q. Woul d t hat be Prodi gy? 168 1 A. Corr ect. 2 Q. Is tha t some t hing t hat 3 wi t h t he Trump Organization? 4 5 Prodigy would s hare A. I don't know tha t it would matter t o u s where the buyers came from , but t hey may have . 6 Q. Would you have ever looked at -- t he Trump 7 Organiza ti o n b r oadl y speaki ng , would you have ever 8 looked a t who the buyers were for particular 9 condomini ums? 10 A . We would li kely no t have been involved in 11 any ki nd of screeni ng process l ike that , no . 12 Q. So if you h a d a bunch of buye r s who 13 happened t o be Russians , would that be s omething 14 that woul d come across your radar? 15 A. Not likel y . 16 Q. Would Prodigy have brought that to the 17 Trump Organizatio n' s a tt e nti o n if that were t he 18 case? 19 A . Probably not . 20 Q. Is tha t something you would i nquire about? 21 A . Pr obably no t. 22 Q. Yo u wouldn't -- the Trump Or ganizati on 23 wouldn ' t kee p any records of who t he buyers were of 24 the part i cul a r condos? 25 A. No . Oft e ntimes we would probably see it 16 9 1 eventually wh en it came t o oper a ti o n s , but du ring 2 the sal es process we woul dn 't h ave been act i ve ly 3 involved in t hat. I don 't t hink a t least . 4 Q . We 'll s ti ck with the Trump Soho . Do you 5 know whe t her that particular project pe rmitted 6 anonymous buyers? 7 A. I don't know wh a t 8 Q . I s i t possibl e to buy a cond omi nium 9 10 t hat mean s . wit hout di scl osing a beneficial ownership o f t he actual buye r? 11 A . I i magi ne peopl e , you know , as woul d o ften 12 be t he case , would buy a condomi n i um i n a n LLC . 13 So , you know , some sort o f corporat e structure that 14 way I would imagi n e i s pre tty common , but I don ' t 15 know. 16 Q. And does the Trump Organization do any due 17 d i l i gen ce t o de termi ne wh o t he b enefi c i al owners 18 are o f a parti cul ar buyer? 19 20 A . In that case we would not have been in vo l ved , no . 21 Q. Wo uld t hat fall to Prodigy agai n ? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. Do you know whether any buyer s paid all 24 25 cash for their particular unit s ? A. No i dea . 1 70 1 2 Q. I s tha t something that t he Trump Organization keeps track of ? 3 A . Not that I recall , no . 4 Q. Is tha t something that Prodigy could keep 5 6 track of? A . I don't know that it would mat t er t o 7 Prodigy . So I don't know that they would keep 8 track of it. 9 s h ows up wit h a bank check , you know , wit h Whether a buyer shows up with cash or 10 financing in place , it wasn 't their or our role to 11 help secure financing. 12 13 So I don't know. Q. You 're not sure tha t it woul d matter whether t he purchaser was a c ash buyer? 14 A . I don 't thi nk so , no . 15 Q. Woul d you ever consider what t he 16 provenance of the money was that was used to 17 purchase a particul ar condo ? 18 A . In the case o f Trump Soho cert a inly not 19 because we weren't in charge of t hat , but I think 20 there are defi nitely cash buyers t hat as developers 21 I' ve seen and heard o f a ll ov er t he pl ace . 22 Q. Are t here othe r Trump project s that the 23 Trump Organi za tion served as the agent for actually 24 selling t he uni t s? 25 A. There are some wh ere we ' ve served or a t 171 1 least part i al ly served in that cap acity as sponsor 2 o n occasion , yes. 3 Q. And in those cases where the Trump 4 Organiza ti o n se rves as sponso r d id the Trump 5 Organization perform a n y due diligence on who t he 6 b uyer s of the p articul a r units are? 7 A. I don't recall. 8 Q. Do you recall which bui ldi ngs tho s e were 9 10 where Trump was a sponsor? A . Trump Soho Trump was a sponsor and like ly 11 had our own l easi ng team or selling t eam in there 12 because sometimes you would bring in a group -- in 13 most cases you would bring in a group , a Corcoran 14 or a Douglas Elliman and say, okay, you guys are in 15 c h arge of sale s . 16 it , we ' re still the sponsor, but they ' re the ones 17 doing the acti ve selli ng . 18 case - by- case bas i s . 19 Q. Okay. We 're the developer , we 'll build So it j ust depends on a So in Trump Soho Trump was a 20 sponsor but wasn't actually doing a ny of the 21 se lling? 22 23 24 25 A. Trump wasn't a sponsor. Trump had a piece of t he equity , but the sponsor I believe is Sapir . MR . GARTEN: you just misspoke. I'm sorry t o i n t erject. I think You sa id Trump Soho was the 1 72 1 sponsor earli e r. 2 MR . TRUMP : 3 MR. GARTEN: 4 5 6 MR. TRUMP : Trump was the sponsor o f Trump Trump was not t he spo nsor of Trump Soho , no . MR . GARTEN: 8 MR. TRUMP : 10 Av e nue . Okay . I thi nk I mean t Trump Park I ' m sorry. MR . FUTERFAS : 11 I apo l og ize . Okay . A l o t of Tr umps . Excuse me . (Whereupon a d i scuss i on was had 12 13 Oh, I' m sorr y . Soho . 7 9 No . so t t o voce . ) BY MR . PRIVOR : 14 Q. Are t here o t he r pro j ects whe r e you can 15 recall where the Trump Organiza t ion se r ve d as a 16 sponsor responsible for se lli ng t he un it s ? 17 A . Le t' s see . Where we -- I thi nk Tr ump Par k 18 Avenue is t he primary one where , yo u know , I would 19 be aware of where we served as sponsor and a l so 20 d i dn 't o ft e n work wit h o ut s i de b r oker age. 21 Q. Any others t hat you can r e call ? 22 A . I thi nk mos t utili zed outs i de sal espeopl e . 23 Maybe Vegas , but I ' m speculating now . 24 remember t he structu r e of t he sa l es t eams . 25 I just don 't Q. Othe r t han Par k Avenue yo u can ' t r ecall 1 73 1 a n y today? A . That doesn't mean they weren't t h ere . 2 3 jus t don 't -Q . Unders t ood . 4 5 I jus t want to make s u re we understand the s cope of your memory . 6 A . Correct. 7 Q . We ' ve talked a b it about Bayrock . 8 there other projects where Bayrock was partnered 9 with the Trump Organ ization? 10 11 Are A . Again , Fort Lauderdale and Soho are the two . 12 Q. How about i n Ph oenix? 13 A . The deal never went 14 Q . How about Hote l du Pare on Lake Gen eva? 15 A. No . 16 Q. Did that ever come to fruition? 17 A . I 'm n ot even aware of it comi ng to me . 18 Q. Ar e you familiar with the Swiss 19 forward . Development Group ? 20 A . That' s the name of it? 21 Q. I'm asking if you 're familiar with the 22 Swiss Development Group? 23 A . I'm no t, no . 24 Q. Do you know who Victor Khrapunov is? 25 I K- H- R- A-P-U- N- 0 - V . 1 74 1 A. I do no t. 2 Q. Do you know if had owned any condomi niums 3 in Trump Soho? 4 A. He may, but I don't know. 5 Q. You menti oned a Mosc ow project t hat d idn 't never came to fruition with Mr . Sater 6 come into 7 in 2006 I think you said? 8 A . Correct. 9 Q. Was there ever another effort by Mr. Sat er 10 11 12 13 14 to bring t ogether a development in Moscow? A . I beli eve in 201 5 he worked on somethi ng t o t hat effect with Mike Cohen . Q. And Mike Cohen is counsel at the Trump Organizati o n? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Te ll us about that . 17 you know anyt hi ng about that deal? How did that -- do 18 A. Very little. 19 Q. What do you know about it? 20 A . I know tha t it got to an LOI and that ' s 21 22 about the extent of it . Q. Do you know who s i gned the LOI? 23 le tt er of int ent? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. Do you know who s i gned it? An LOI i s 1 75 1 A . I beli eve my f at h er s i gned it. 2 Q. On behalf o f the Trump Organiza tion? 3 A . Yes . 4 Q. Do you k now who the counterparties were? 5 A. I don 't. 6 Q. Was Bayrock involved in that one ? 7 A . I don't beli eve so . 8 Q. Do you have a n y idea who was the potential 9 count e r party on that deal ? 10 A . I don 't, no . 11 Q. But it was somebody connected t o Felix 12 13 Sater? A . I don 't know if they 're c o nnect ed t o Fe lix 14 Sater or if they kne w Fel ix. 15 broke r. 16 wasn 't invo l ved . 17 18 He was i n volved as a I don't know if he' s a pri nc i pal. I Q. I presume t he Trump Orga nization still has the lett er o f int e nt? 19 A . I wou ld imagine . 20 Q. Is that something you could produce to t h e 21 Committ ee if we need e d to s ee that? 22 A . I don't see why n ot . 23 I'll c h eck wit h c ounsel . 24 Q. It' s been r e ported I be li e ve o n CNN tha t 25 Mr. Cohen had reached out to a n e - mail box at the 1 76 1 Kreml in t hat was a ge ne ri c mail box f o r Dmitry 2 Peskov . 3 reporting? Were you aware of t hat before t he p ubli c 4 A. No , I was n o t. 5 Q. Did you have any invol vement 6 in thi s po te n t ia l deal in Moscow? 7 A. Li ke I sai d , I was peripherally awa re of 8 it , but most o f my knowl e dge has been gained s i nce 9 as it r e l a t es t o hearing a b ou t it over t he l as t f ew 10 11 weeks . Q. I n t h is same time frame , 2015 o r 2016 , 12 whe n Mr. Sa ter and Mr. Cohen were e x pl oring a 13 poss i ble d e al , d o you know i f anyo ne e lse was also 14 expl o ring a deal s imultaneo us ly wi th t he Trump 15 Organiza ti o n to build in Moscow? 16 A . I don 't believ e so . 17 Q. We ' ve di scus s e d t he Aga l arov f amily, Emin 18 and his fa t her Aras . 19 e xpl oring buildi ng a Trump Tower in Moscow? 20 21 Do you know if they we r e a l so A . We had looked at it earlier t han tha t, b ut it sort o f f aded away I be li eve a t the end of '1 4 . 22 Q. But n o t in 201 5 o r 2016? 23 A . Cert ainly no t 24 definitive end t o it. 25 f at i g ue . '1 6 . There was never a It j us t d i ed of deal 1 77 1 Q. How did that deal fir s t come about? 2 MR. FUTERFAS: 3 MR . PRIVOR : 4 Whi c h just for c larifi cation ? The Agalarovs in 2014 . BY THE WI TNESS : 5 A. They had hosted the Miss Universe Pageant. 6 They were Russian developers. They had a place 7 ca ll ed Crocus Cit y Hall wh ere the pageant happe ned . 8 They had a development site across the street, 9 nearby , I've n ever been there to see that s it e , a nd 10 wanted to talk about potentially doing a Trump- 11 branded building there . 12 13 Q. Did you know the Agal arovs independently of the Miss Un iverse Pageant, before Miss Universe? 14 A . Not t hat I recal l, no . 15 Q. How about your father, do you know if he 16 had any connection t o t hem before Miss Universe ? 17 A . I don 't belie ve he d i d . 18 Q. Do you know how they were first introduced 19 to your father? 20 A . I don 't. 21 Q. So just two days after t he Miss Universe 22 Pageant your father put out a Tweet referring t o 23 Aras Agalarov saying that he " Had a great weekend 24 with you and your family, you ' ve done a fantastic 25 job. Trump Tower Moscow i s next " in a ll bold caps . 1 78 1 " Emi n was wow ." Presumably Emin performed at Miss 2 Uni verse ; is that right? 3 A . He performed there . 4 Q. So f ollowin g the Miss Uni verse Pageant 5 your father Tweeted a bout Trump Tower Moscow . 6 that refresh your recollection in t erms of the 7 timing of wh e n there was a discussion with the 8 Agalarovs? 9 10 11 Does A. As I said , it was shortl y thereafter, but I don ' t remember the exact timing. Q. Do you know whether fin ancing was ever 12 discussed wit h the Trump Organization for building 13 a Trump Tower in Moscow? 14 A . I don 't believe i t was . 15 Q. Have you ever h eard of a Russian 16 affiliated bank known as Sberbank , S-B-E-R-B-A-N-K? 17 A . No . 18 Q . Do you know if they were eve r invo lved in 19 any fi nancing deal f or a Trump project? 20 A . Not t hat I'm aware of . 21 Q . Do you know who Herman Gref? 22 A. Herman Gref. 23 Q. G-R-E-F. 24 A . No . 25 Q. He might go by German Gre f. 1 79 1 A. No t t hat I recall . 2 Q . Did t he Trump Organization ever explore 3 building a pro j ect in Baku , Azerbai j an? 4 A. Yes . 5 Q . And when was t hat? 6 A . I wasn 't t he lead on the project. 7 So maybe I 'll defer to Alan. 8 Q . I don 't think Alan want s to tes tify today . 9 A. I don 't know the exact timing. 10 sound right? I don ' t know the exact t i ming . 11 Q . You don ' t recall exactly? 12 MR . FUTERFAS : 13 16 17 Just a second . (Whereupon a discussion was had so tt o voce . ) 14 15 Would 2012 BY MR . PRIVOR : Q . Do you know who was involved i n the Azerbaijan pro ject or potential project? 18 A . I don 't recall , no . 19 Q . Anyone from the Trump Organization you can 20 21 22 23 24 25 recall? A . I beli eve my sister was i nvol ve d and presumab ly members o f our developme nt team . Q . Do you know who the potenti al count erpart y was on that deal? A . I don't remember . 1 80 1 2 Q. And t hat d eal neve r c ame to fruition; i s tha t rig h t? 3 A. It never go t built, no . 4 Q . Do you know why? 5 A. I don 't. 6 Q. Are you famili ar wi th the Mammadov family? 7 A. No . 8 Q . Don ' t 9 A. I may have me t them, but I don 't kn ow 10 11 12 know them a t a ll? them, no . Q . Aras Agalarov i s from Azerbaij an . know if he was related to t ha t parti c ular p r o jec t ? 13 A . I don't know . 14 Q . How d id you fir s t 15 16 Do you come t o meet Emin Aga l arov? A . I don't remember how we we re fi rst 17 introduced . 18 pe rson was when he performed at t he WGC 19 Championship , as I menti oned i n my opening 20 s t a teme nt. 21 we started talki ng about a po t en ti al real es t a t e 22 deve l opment wit h the Agalarovs shortly a ft e r t he 23 Miss Universe Pagean t. I believe the first time we met i n Pre sumab ly I was introduced t o him wh en 24 Q. Had you eve r met h is fath e r? 25 A. I don't belie ve I have , no. 1 81 1 Q. No t at a ny time? 2 A . Not t hat I recall, no . 3 Q. Do you know whether either of t he 4 Agal a r ovs a tt ended t he ina ugurati on f o r your f a ther 5 as President ? 6 A . I don 't. 7 Q. Do you k now if they were invit ed? 8 A. I don 't know . 9 Q. Do you k now whethe r Mr. -- the f at h e r, 10 Aras Agalarov , has any connection t o Vl adimi r 11 Pu ti n ? 12 A. I don't know . 13 Q. How about Emi n ? 14 A . I don't kno w. 15 Q. We had l oo ked a t e a rli er thi s morni ng t he 16 e - mai l from Mr . Gol dstone and Mr . Golds t one refers 17 to t he Agalar ovs hav i ng informat i on a n d re f ers t o a 18 connection to the Russ i an government . 19 come as a surprise t o you ? Di d t hat 20 A . What' s the quest i on ? 21 Q. Di d it come as a surprise to you that 22 Mr. Gol ds t o ne was r e f erring t o a co nnecti o n be t ween 23 the Agalarovs and t he Russian government ? 24 25 A . I don 't know . abo ut i t . I don ' t know i f I thought 1 82 Q. When you ' re revi ewi ng your counterpart i es 1 2 f or a po t ent i a l deal you said that you 'l l do some 3 sort of background check . 4 determine i f your count erparty i s proh ibi ted f rom 5 doing business with U. S . persons because they ' re on 6 the U . S . sanctions lis t ? 7 8 A . Again, I would i magi ne that woul d f all to whoever ' s doing the background check . 9 10 Q. And that ' s some underling , you don' t recall who it is? 11 12 A . I mean , the agency doing the background c h eck presumably would noti f y us o f t h at . 13 14 Q. At what s tage of a potential development deal do you actual l y co nd u ct a background check? 15 16 17 18 Do you ever check to A. Depen ds . Befo r e we start doi ng serious work . Q. Is it before the letter of i n tent is signed? 19 A . No t always , no . 20 Q. So sometimes you ' ll sign a letter of 21 int ent with a counterparty f o r which you d o n ' t 22 wh at t heir backgroun d is , whet her t hey ' re a 23 sui t able partner? 24 25 know A . I think if the r e ' s an unde rstanding they have a reputation as be ing success f ul devel opers we 1 83 1 co uld ge t p ast t hat s t age witho ut havi ng gon e 2 t h rough it, yes . 3 Q. And how do you de t ermine whether somebody 4 has the fi nancial wh e rewit hal to compl e t e a pro j ec t 5 as a deve l ope r? 6 A . Further diligence . 7 Q. And what 8 9 ki nd o f diligence i s performed t o de t ermi ne their financ i al wherewitha l? A. In cases wh e re we ' re comi ng i n as a 10 license we may not even get i nvolved in that . 11 would look to see if they proper l y owned the l and , 12 wh a t the finan cing structure would be , we ' d discuss 13 that with t hem , but the re ' s not a fixed proces s as 14 to determine t hat . 15 We In the case o f the Agal arovs it' s pre tty 16 clear they were successful developers , we ' d seen 17 wh a t they did a ft er Mi ss Universe . 18 wi lli ng t o have dialogue talking about a pot enti al 19 deal, bu t, aga i n , it didn ' t go anywhere . 20 So we were Q. So if t he Agalarovs were , f o r i nsta nce , 21 your potenti a l co unt erparty, you wouldn 't loo k into 22 wh ere they were get ti ng t h e money t o actua ll y 23 finance a particular deal t hey were go i ng to 24 deve lop wi t h your name on it? 25 A . We would. Once we got to financ ing we 1 84 1 woul d li ke l y ge t involved with t hat, but tha t' s 2 u suall y f urt her down t he road . 3 4 Q. So much aft er the le t ter of int ent is s i gned? 5 A . Defi n it ely . 6 Q. At t hat poi nt when you ' re going to check 7 the financi a l wherewit hal d o you know what' s 8 ac t uall y done to confi rm they have the f i nanci a l 9 ab i l it y t o perform? 10 A . I don 't. 11 Q. Who woul d t ake care of t hat ? 12 13 14 Who i n t he Trump Organiza t io n would manage t hat p r ocess ? A . Likely our CFO woul d look at something li ke tha t. 15 Q. Who i s tha t? 16 A . All en Weisse l berg . 17 Q. With respec t t o t he Aga l arovs , do y ou know 18 whe t her t he Trump Organiza ti on eve r performed any 19 financial due di l igence on them? 20 A . I don't kno w. 21 Q. So with respect to the var ious proj e c t s 22 t h a t wer e con s ide r ed with the Agalar ovs , you do n' t 23 know whe t her it ever got t o the s t age where 24 financial due d i ligence was performed? 25 A . Ther e was onl y o n e p r o j ect tha t I' m awar e 185 1 o f t hat was d i scussed with t he Agal a r ovs a nd it 2 never go t t o t hat s t age . 3 Q . Do you know who I van -- 4 MR . FUTERFAS : 5 MR. PRIVOR : 6 Can I have one mi nut e? Of cour se . (Whe r e u pon a discussion was had 7 8 9 so tt o voce . ) BY MR . PRI VOR : Q. Do you k now t he n ame Ivan Ma r kov? 10 A . I don 't, t o t he bes t of my knowl edge . 11 Q. Do you know whether any part y o t her than 12 those we di scu sse d ever me t wi t h t he Tr ump 13 Organiza ti on to discuss bu il d i ng a Trump Palace in 14 Moscow? I don ' t know . 15 A. Maybe . 16 Q . Who would know that ? 17 A . We ll, myself o r my s i st e r , but I be lie ve 18 we 're the onl y ones t hat loo ked a t, you know , deals 19 o t her than wha t we ' ve d iscussed i n potent ial l y 20 Moscow . 21 So t hese a r e peopl e t hat pe r haps I met but d on 't 22 even r ecall mee ting. 23 But, again, no thi ng ever came t o fr uiti o n. Q . The Trump Organizati on obv i ous l y cons i ders 24 l o t s of development projec t s . Does the 25 organiza ti o n keep a ny sort o f lo g o f t hose t hat it 1 86 1 h as con s idered ? 2 A. No t an o ffi c i a l l og , n o . 3 Q . Is t here a file that would cont ain , for 4 in s tance , a ll letters o f i nte nt tha t are e nt ered 5 into? 6 7 A . I wou l d imagine our legal depar t men t would keep tha t, yes . 8 Q. Do you know that they do kee p them? 9 A. I don't know that t hey d o , b ut I assume 10 11 tha t they would . Q. Any t i me the Trump Organization ent ers 12 int o a l etter o f int ent i s t hat somethi ng t h a t h as 13 to go through your fath e r or can somebody else sign 14 a letter of intent? 15 16 17 18 A. No , it wouldn ' t h ave to go through my father necessari l y . Q. Who e l se can s ign on behalf o f the Trump Organiza ti on ? 19 A . My s ibli ngs and I could have . 20 Q. And i s the r e a rule or any sort o f 21 int ernal policy i n t erms o f when yo u can sign 22 versus it wo uld have t o go t o the l eve l that your 23 fat her s igns it? 24 A . No . 25 Q. So you or y our s iblings co ul d pursu e a 1 87 1 development deal witho ut cons ulting your f a the r ? 2 A . We li ke l y woul d cons ult him, but we coul d 3 pursue plent y of deals , look at plent y of deals . 4 We wo uldn 't likel y bri ng him s tuff be f o re we 5 be li eve t hem to be real and he d idn't spend very 6 much t ime deal i ng wi t h license deals . Q . In t e rms of r eal 7 es tat e d evel opment s , 8 approximat ely how many projec ts a year does the 9 Trump Organization cons ider ? 10 A . Fo r our own devel opments? 11 Q . Devel opment 12 A. Co ul d be 10 or 1 5 , could b e doze n s . or l i censi ng . Every 13 year ' s di f feren t depending on the marke t cycle , 14 depending o n what' s go ing on . 15 Q . Looking back at 20 1 6 , can you recall how 16 many dea ls the Trump Organization cons idered f or 17 Trump be i ng the developer? A . 20 1 6 f or Trump be i ng the deve l oper ? 18 Well , 19 we were in the process of do i ng and finishing 20 Doral . 21 doing the same t hing a t the o ld Post Offi ce . 22 terms o f our own deve l opment s o ur p l a te s were 23 pre tt y f ull with that as well as smaller s t uff as 24 it r elated so some of our go lf cour se developments , 25 but those wer e our pri mary f ocus i n that a r ea . So we had a big s t ake in t hat. And we were So in 1 88 1 Q. But apart fr om those that were act ua lly i n 2 deve l opment , were there others that you con s idered 3 as an organization f or Trump serving as the 4 developer in 2016 ? 5 6 7 A. I' m sure we l ooked a t s t uff . I just don 't remember what it was . Q. How about f o r li cens ing deal s , do you 8 recall in 2016 how many licensing deal s there were 9 for r eal e state d eve lopme nt s where Trump would 10 serve as the name on the building? 11 A. I don 't recall. 12 Q. Do you have a ballpark guess? 13 A . A dozen . 14 Q. And for each of t hose doze n or so deals , I don 't remember exactly . 15 wh a tever t he exact n umber i s , would there be a 16 letter of intent for each one ? 17 A . No, n o t necessari ly . 18 Q. What are the c irc ums t ances that require 19 20 en t eri ng into a l e tt er of intent? A . There wo ul d have t o be , y o u k now , a deal 21 in place , t he ability t o be lieve tha t something 22 could happe n, you kn ow, o n those s it es , we get 23 comfortable with the l ocati on and what was 24 ultimat e ly going to be built, nume r ous criteri a 25 t h a t woul d go into t hat. 1 89 1 Q. But your comf o rt you described earli e r 2 does not i nclude necessarily fin anci a l d ue 3 diligence , t hat may come later? 4 A. That could come l a t e r, yes . 5 Q. J ust one ques tion a bout your vi sits to 6 Russ i a . 7 be ing there f our or fiv e times? I t hink you s t ated earlier you recalled 8 A. Tha t's correct. 9 Q. And the most recent was when? 10 A . I bel i eve the last was 201 1. 11 Q. Wit h respect t o the potent i a l Sater deal 12 in Mosco w 2015 or early 2016, d id you ever travel 13 to Russia? 14 A . I d i d not . 15 Q. Did you ever speak to anybody from Russi a 16 about that dea l ? 17 A . About t hat deal, no . 18 Q. About any othe r deal s in Russia in t hat 19 time period ? 20 A . No , I don't be li eve so . 21 Q. And among a ll the deal s tha t were 22 co nsidered you mentioned po tenti al licens ing deals 23 in 2 016 as well as t he two developments tha t you 24 mentioned . 25 wit h r egard t o any o f tho se projects t hat you can Did you speak t o anybody from Russia 1 90 1 reca ll? 2 A. No , n o t that I can reca ll. 3 MR. PRI VOR : 4 5 6 7 8 9 I think our time is up . We'll go o ff t he record a t MR . FOSTER : You have ten more minutes if you want it. MR. PRI VOR : We 'll continue f o r a f ew more minut e s . MS. SAWYER : Just q ui ckly, yo u alre ady have 10 told us t hat you did not go to the Miss Univ ers e 11 Pageant i n 2013 . 12 about hi s vi s it there 13 MR . TRUMP : 14 MS . SAWYER : Did your f a t her ever t alk to you No, he did not . So you don 't rea lly know a bout 15 wh a t he did while he was there and who he might 16 have met wi th? 17 18 19 MR . TRUMP : No, not i n any de tail. BY MR . PRIVOR: Q. I' m going t o give you a series of names . 20 Wit h respect to each one o f them can you tell us 21 whe t her you had any co ntact with these p eopl e 22 d uri ng the campaign season wi th respect to your 23 father' s campaign . 24 25 You me nti oned earlier I rakly or I ke Kaveladze. Ot her than the June 9th meeting, have 1 91 1 you had any other cont act with him d uri ng the 2 campaign? A . During t he campaign , no , I don 't believe 3 4 so . 5 wit h him before t he meeting and , frank l y , after 6 were in looking at t he deal with Crocus which would 7 h ave petered out be f o r e the campai g n. I be li eve t he only communi cations I ever had 8 Q. How about Oleg Deripaska ? 9 A . Not that I recall. 10 Q. Do you know who he i s ? 11 A . I don 't. 12 Q. How about 13 A . No . 14 Q. Do you k n ow who h e i s? 15 A . I don't. 16 Q. Dennis Katsyv? 17 A . No t t hat I recall, no . 18 Q. Do you know who he i s ? 19 A . No . 20 Q. How about Sergey Lavrov ? 21 A . The name s o unds familiar , but I don ' t 22 23 Pe ter Ka t syv? know wh o it i s . Q. Do you know whether you ha d any con t act 24 wi t h him during t he campaign? 25 A. No , I di d n o t. 1 92 1 Q. How about Se r gey Ki s lyak ? 2 A. Again, soun ds familiar, but I t hink we 3 were t alking about both of t hose last two names a 4 littl e b it earl i er . 5 6 Q. Sergey Kislyak is the former Russian ambassador . A. The same would apply. 7 I k now t hey had a 8 meeting i n my o ffi c e a nd I' m not sure if I said 9 hello or not , but t h a t' s the extent . Maybe Lav rov , 10 he may be the gentleman that you mentioned in t he 11 Michael Cohen e - mai l. 12 from? 13 14 15 MR . FUTERFAS: I s that where that come s I thought maybe he was the NRA perso n. MR. TRUMP : I don't know . So the a n swe r i s 16 yeah , I may have heard the name , but I don 't have 17 a ny real knowl edge . 18 BY MR . PRIVOR: 19 Q. With respec t t o Ambassador Kislyak , o t her 20 t h an tha t possible chance encount er in yo ur o ffi ce , 21 did you have any other communica ti on with him 22 d uri ng the campaign? 23 A . Not that I' m aware of , no . 24 Q. How about Sergei Gorkov? 25 A. I don't belie ve so . 1 93 1 Q. Do you k n ow who h e is? 2 A . Sergei Gorkov? 3 Q. Yes . 4 A . Can you spe ll it, please . 5 Q. G- O- R- K- 0 - V . 6 A . I don't believ e so . 7 Q. How about Igor Sechi n ? 8 A. I don 't beli eve so . 9 Q. Do you k n ow him? 10 A . Not that I recall . 11 Q. Konstantin Kilimnik? 12 A. No . 13 Q. Do you know who he i s ? 14 A . I don 't. 15 Q. Dmitry Pes kov, do you know hi m? 16 A . The name sounds famili ar , but I believe 17 it's because it was mentioned earlier today . 18 don ' t So I know him and I don ' t believe I'v e met him . 19 Q. Have you had any communications with him? 20 A . I don 't believe so , n o . 21 Q. How about Sergei Ivanov? 22 A . No . 23 MR . FUTERFAS: Excuse me . 24 clarification -- I'm sorry . 25 t h a t a n swer? For were you fini shed with 1 94 1 MR. TRUMP : Yes . 2 MR. FUTERFAS : The te s timony earlier was 3 about Mr . Trump meet ing someone a t an NRA 4 con f e r e n ce . 5 person . 6 that individual , to be clear -- 7 8 9 I jus t don 't remember the name o f tha t So whe n he says I don ' t MR. TRUMP : re call meeti ng No , I don't think tha t n ame came up . MR . PRI VOR : Understood . 10 MR . TRUMP : It may i ncl ude 11 MR . TRUMP : Yeah . 12 p lease give it to me. 13 BY MR . PRIVOR : I f there ' s a contex t , 14 Q . How about I gor Diveykin? 15 A. No . 16 Q . Do you know who he i s ? 17 A . I do n't. 18 Q . How abou t Konstantin Kosachev? 19 A . No t that I know o f, no . 20 Q . You don ' t know who he i s e ither? 21 A . No . 22 Q . Any communi cation s with Vi c t or Yanu kovych? 23 A . No . 24 Q . Do you know who he i s ? 25 A. I' ve heard t he name. 1 95 1 Q. Do you k n ow i n wh a t cont e xt ? 2 A . Is n't he t h e f o rmer p r es i dent o f t h e 3 Ukrai ne ? 4 Q. He i s . 5 A . Okay . 6 Q. Do you know anything more abou t i t ? 7 A . That' s the e xt e nt o f it. 8 Q. How about Mi khail Kul ag i n? 9 A . No . 10 Q. You don ' t 11 A. No . 12 Q. How abou t Mikhail Fri dman ? 13 A . No . 14 Q. Do n't know who h e i s e it her ? 15 A . Not tha t 16 Q. Any communi cat ions with Oleg Govorun? 17 A . I do n't beli eve so . 18 Q. Don ' t 19 A . No . 20 Q. How about any communi ca t io n s with Pyo tr 21 know who he is? I recall. know who he i s ? Av en? 22 A . Doesn't sou nd f a mi l i a r. 23 Q. And you don ' t 24 A . No . 25 MR . PRIVOR : know who he is? Why do n't we t ake a break . 1 96 1 We 'll go o ff t he r eco rd. 2 It' s 1: 47 . (A s hort b r ea k wa s had . ) 3 MS. SAWYER : We 'l l go back on t he record . 4 MR. FOSTE R: It' s 1:58 . I'll j u s t no t e 5 qu i ckl y f or t he reco rd we ' re goi ng to deviat e a 6 l ittl e b it from t he proced ure . 7 i s go ing t o de f e r t o t he mi no rity s taff t o do 8 anothe r round a t thi s poin t. 9 li ne o f questi oning, b ut we thin k i t will be shor t . The ma j ori t y s t a f f We only have one more 10 So for ef fi c i ency sake we ' re going t o l e t t hem 11 f i ni sh a nd then we 'll have our round . 12 BY MR . PRIVOR: 13 Q . I' m go i ng t o ask a couple o f cleanup 14 q u es ti o n s a nd I' l l t urn it over t o my col l eague 15 Heat her. 16 17 Have you ever heard of an ent ity named VTB Ban k ? 18 A . Not that I r ecal l at th i s time , no . 19 Q . Does it r i ng a be ll with y ou as pr ov iding 20 fi nancing t o any dea l tha t t he Trump Organizat i o n 21 had cons i dered? 22 A. Co ul d yo u g i ve me some cont ex t? 23 Q . I' m just aski ng if you ' ve heard of it . 24 A . I don 't rec a ll, no . 25 Q . Good eno ugh. 197 1 2 When was the last time tha t you had seen Mr. Sater in person, do you recall? 3 A . It' s been years . 4 Q. Do you k now whether he vi sited the Trump 5 Tower i n July of 2016? 6 A . I don't. 7 Q. When' s the last time you spoke to 8 9 10 Mr . Sater? A. Also years . Q. And how about when ' s the last 11 communi cation you ' ve had with him in any other form 12 such as e - mail? 13 A . I have no idea . 14 Q. Do you know -- did you know t hat Mr. Cohen 15 a nd Mr . Sater had met in J anuary o f 2017? 16 A . I did not know . 17 Q. Are you familiar with a Ukrai nian l awmaker 18 by the name of Andrey Artemenko ? 19 A . I ' m no t. 20 MR . PRIVOR : 21 22 23 24 25 I'll turn it over to Heat her . FURTHER EXAMINATI ON BY MS . SAWYER : Q. Are you familiar with the term or the concept of " kompromat " ? A . I've heard of it in the last few weeks , 1 98 1 yes. Q. And what i s your understanding of t hat 2 3 term? 4 A. Compr omi s in g informa tion. 5 Q. And have you ever been t o ld that Russ i a 6 has compromising information on you ? 7 A. No . 8 Q. Have you ever been told tha t Russia has 9 compromising i n f orma tion on your f at h e r? 10 A . No . 11 Q. On anyone else in your family? 12 A. No . 13 Q. Anyone associ ated wit h t he Trump 14 Organ izati o n? 15 A. Not that I' m aware o f, 16 Q. Anyone associ ated wit h t he Trump 17 campaign? 18 A. Same. 19 MR . FUTERFAS : 20 n e xt q u es ti o n can I 21 MS . SAWYER : 22 25 I' m sorry , before y ou ask the Sure . (Whereupon a di scu ss i o n was had sotto voce .) 23 24 no . MR . FUTE RFAS : Ju s t for clarifi cati on , there ' s a press report o r something that' s called 1 99 1 the Steele doss i er . 2 directed to conversa ti o n s other t han conversation s 3 that have been -- other than t ha t report ing in the 4 press? 5 MS . SAWYER : Are you -- are your q uest i o n s Okay . Setting aside what your 6 counsel has referred to as t he Steele dossier . 7 BY THE WITNESS : 8 A . I' m no t aware of any , no . 9 Q. How about compromi si ng in f ormation with 10 regard to Li eutenant General Flynn? 11 A . None . 12 Q. And what about Mr . Manafort? 13 A . Al so none . 14 Q. The i n tellige nce community in early 15 January published a n unclassified assessment tha t 16 " Russia ' s int e lli gence services conducted cyber 17 operati ons aga i nst t argets associat ed wi th t he 2016 18 presiden ti al e l ection, including t argets associated 19 with both major U .S. political parti es ." 20 concluded that t hi s was a part of a campaign where 21 they sought to suppo rt your father ' s prospec ts and 22 campai g n and prov i ded d e r ogat o ry i nfor mat i o n 23 against his opponent, Hillary Clint on . 24 any evidence that contra di c ts or i s inconsistent 25 wit h that assessment? They Do you have 200 1 2 3 4 A. I'm n o t aware o f any ev ide nce t hat co nfirms or denies it. Q . Have you seen any int elligence reports rel a ted t o it ? 5 A . I have not , no . 6 Q . Has anyone d iscussed wi th you any 7 int el ligence r eport s r e l a t ed t o it ? 8 A . No . 9 Q. Do you have any other evidence that it was 10 related t o that assessment? 11 A . Not that I' m aware o f . 12 Q. Are you aware o f anyone who enco uraged , 13 supported, in any way aided Russia cyber operat ions 14 d uri ng the 2016 preside nti al e l ecti o n ? 15 A. I ' m n o t. 16 Q . Have you seen any e - mails or documents 17 that mi ght have come f rom cyber operat i ons duri ng 18 the 20 1 6 p r esidential e l ec ti on o t her than what ' s 19 been released publicly? 20 A . No . 21 Q . When and how did you first hear about the 22 avail abilit y o f information gained through cybe r 23 a tt a cks on t he Democrat ic National Commit tee? 24 A . I imagine Wiki Leaks , bu t I don 't know . 25 Q. And do you recall ro ug hly when that was ? 201 1 A. I d o n't. 2 Q. And t hat was the fi rst yo u had hear d o f 3 Summer '1 6 , spring o f '1 6 . it ? 4 A. I beli eve so , yes . 5 Q. And how did you hear about i t ? 6 A . News , soci al media . 7 Q. And when did you fir s t hear t hat tha t 8 informat i on had been gai ned through a hack of t he 9 DNC? 10 A . I don 't know . 11 Q. Do you know if it was i n J une of 201 6? 12 A. I i magi ne I 13 f o und ou t whe n the rest o f the publi c heard i t. 14 Q. So yo u lear ned t h ro ugh publi c r eporti ng ? 15 A. Yes . 16 Q. You d i dn 't hear it f rom anyone wi t hin the 17 campai g n be f o r e tha t? 18 A . Not to my knowl edge , no . 19 Q. Anyone associ ated wit h t he camp aign i n any 20 way? 21 A . I don 't bel i eve so . 22 MR. PRI VOR : 23 24 25 Di d a nyone fr om WikiLeaks reach o ut to you t o tell you about t he hacks ? MR. TRUMP: As I men ti oned , t hey had cont act e d me as king if I pushed some s t u ff o ut a nd 202 1 some ot h er minor communi ca tions , but I believe that 2 was a lready we ll in process by that time. 3 MR . PRIVOR : Had anyone sent you a DM or 4 pr i vate message concerning hacks o f the DNC 5 servers? 6 7 8 9 MR . TRUMP: No t that I recall , no . BY MS . SAWYER : Q. Did you or anyone e l se discuss finding ways to obtain the i nformatio n, once you had 10 l earned about it publicly fi nding ways t o obtain 11 that i n f o rmati o n? 12 13 14 15 16 MR. FUTERFAS: Can we jus t be specific whi c h information you ' re re f e rring to? MS . SAWYER: Sure. BY MS . SAWYER : Q. First of all , let me ask you when did you 17 first l earn about the avai labi lity of John 18 Podes t a ' s e - mails? 19 A . When the public was made aware. 20 Q. Do you recall when that was? 21 A . I don 't. 22 Q. Do you think it was as early as you heard 23 about the Browder , t he other ini t ial leak wi t h 24 regard to t he Democratic National Committ ee ? 25 A. I don't know that they're o ne and the 203 1 2 same . I ' m not sure . Q . And d id yo u a l so learn at t h e same time -- 3 around that s ame time t hat 4 t o c y ber a tt ack? 5 A. I don 't reca ll. 6 MR. FUTE RFAS : 7 MS . SAWYER: 8 don ' t recall ? 9 BY THE WITNESS : he also had been subjec t "He " meaning Podes t a . " He " meaning John Pod est a . You 10 A . No . 11 Q . Di d you or a nyone e l se dis c uss finding or 12 o b t a ining thi s in f o r mation fr om t he h ack of t he 13 Democratic Nat i onal 14 A . No . 15 16 Committ ee ? It was a ll put up t he r e I beli eve, li ke I sai d , on Wi ki Leaks . Q. Did you discuss tryi ng t o obtain the 17 informat i on fr om t h e hack of J o h n Podes t a ' s 18 e - mai ls ? 19 A . I don 't believ e so , no . 20 Q . Di d you d i scuss h ow t o coo r d i na t e poss i b l e 21 re l ease of tha t i nfo r mation with anyone? 22 A . No t t hat I can r ecall, no . 23 Q. Did anyone offer you any in f ormation as t o 24 when t ha t i nformation from e it her of those hacks 25 woul d be re l eased? 204 1 MR. FUTERFAS : You mean pr i or -- I want to be 2 c l ear of your question . 3 information be ing publicly available , i. e . tha t, in 4 fact, they were hacked? 5 MS . SAWYER : 6 7 8 You mean prior to t hat I'm asking if anyone cont act ed him -- let me j ust rephrase . MR. FUTERFAS : Thank yo u. BY MS . SAWYER: 9 Q. Did anyone ever contact you or a nyone else 10 on t he campaign about the timing of release o f that 11 information before tha t release occurred? 12 A. No , not that I recall . 13 Q. Did anyone -- did you or anyone e l se on 14 the campaign ever l earn about the timi ng of t he 15 release of the information before it h appened? 16 A . I don 't believe so , no . 17 Q. Was t here any d i scussio n that you were 18 involved in within the campaign or anyone else 19 about potential use o f the information t hat had 20 been obtained through the cyber attacks on t he DNC 21 or Mr . Podesta? 22 23 24 25 A . Meaning beyond wh a t was made avai l able publ icly? Q. Yes . your advantage. How you might poss ibly use that to 205 1 2 A. I don't recall tha t, no . It was just out there in plain sight. MR . PRIVOR: 3 I don 't mean t o be too nitpi cky , 4 b ut you've u sed the term n ot tha t you reca ll. 5 that because it never happe ned or i s it something 6 that happened a t one time , you just don 't recall it 7 now? MR . TRUMP : 8 9 I j us t don ' t I do n' t Is recal l it ev er happe ni ng . know t h a t if s omeone had a passi ng 10 conversati on wit h me and said, hey, what do you 11 th ink about t hat, but no , the r e was no subst anti ve 12 conversatio n s tha t I can a t a ll remember about any 13 o f t ha t . MR . FUTERFAS : 14 Just an observation . I t hink 15 some of the q u es tion s are obviou s ly -- the 16 phraseol ogy i s y ou or anyone on t he campaign . 17 Obviously he can o nl y answer to what he perso nally 18 knows 19 BY MS . SAWYER: 20 21 22 Q. Do you f eel t he n eed to change a ny o f your answers? A. I don't belie ve so , but t hat' s obv i ous l y a 23 caveat I can onl y speak f or myse lf and the 24 conve r sa ti ons I was invol ved in . 25 a ny o ther con versat i ons tha t took part a long t hi s I' m not aware o f 206 1 line of quest i oning t hat I had h eard a bo ut after 2 the f act but was no t a part o f. 3 gave you g uys the ful l scope t here . 4 sense? 5 MR . PRIVOR : I think so . I jus t ki nd o f Does t hat make Just so we 'r e 6 clear , the l ast couple ques tions t hat you ' ve 7 a n swe red with I don't r eca ll, tha t' s n o t some t hing 8 that you knew a t one time but have since forgotten 9 as opposed to I t hi nk your a n swer , if I 10 understand your correcti on , i s that you never knew 11 of a nything li ke that at a ll; i s tha t r ight ? 12 MR . TRUMP : 13 MR . PRIVOR : 14 15 That ' s correct . Thank you f or the c l arificati on . BY MS . SAWYER: Q. Were there any e ff o rt s to coo rdina t e the 16 use of the i nformation that was released as part 17 o f -- by WikiLeaks , by Guccife r, by DC Leaks with 18 any e xt ernal parti es? 19 A . No . 20 Q . Di d y ou ever talk t o anyone -- did you 21 eve r t a lk t o Dan Scav ino about po t enti a l u se of 22 informat io n that was obtained through attacks o n 23 the DNC or Mr . Podes t a ? 24 A . I don 't think so . 25 Q . Did you ever t a lk t o a nyo ne else o n t he 207 1 soci a l medi a t eam f or the campai gn about u se o f 2 t h a t informati on ? 3 A . I f t here was anything that would have been 4 re l eased it woul d have been r e l eased publi c l y . 5 may have had a conversation that sai d , hey , you 6 should re - Tweet t hat thing , that ' s kind of a big 7 deal, b ut tha t wo ul d be t h e ext ent o f any 8 conversa t ion I had . 9 a n y o f t hose conversat ion s . 10 11 I I just don 't remember hav i ng Q . And do you recall when t hose conversat ions would have occurred? 12 A . I don't recall the con versati ons . 13 Q . Did you or anyone e lse encourage Russia or 14 15 16 17 18 So no . a n ybody else to hack Hi ll ary Cli n t o n' s e - mai ls ? A . I cert ai nl y didn' t . I don 't r emembe r if anyone else did . Q . Did you or anyone else make a ny e ff ort to ob t ain Hi llary Clint on ' s e - mai l s? 19 A . No . 20 Q . Did you or anyone else ever rece i ve 21 Hillary Clint on ' s e - mai l s o t her t han something tha t 22 mi ght have been p u bli shed publi c l y ? 23 A . No . 24 Q . Do you know who Pe t er Smi t h is? 25 A . No . 208 1 2 3 4 5 6 Q . Were y o u aware of Mr. Smith' s e fforts to o b tain Hillary Clint on ' s e - mail s ? A . I don't recall knowing Pe t er Smith . I' m not awar e o f hi s e fforts . So Who was he? Q . There 's been publ i c r eport ing on him . So it ' s in the pr ess . I ha ven 't see n it. 7 A. Okay . 8 Q . Do you know if any o f the foll owing people 9 10 made a ny effort s to obtai n Secretary Clinton' s e - mail s . Michael Flynn? 11 A. I don 't know . 12 Q. St eve Bannon? 13 A . I don 't know . 14 Q . Ke llyanne Co nway? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Sam Cl ovis ? 17 A . I don 't know. 18 Q. Cart er Page? 19 A . I don 't know . 20 Q . Roger Stone ? 21 A . No idea . 22 Q . Did you ever have a con versati o n wit h 23 Mr . Stone abou t e - mails or o ther information 24 ob t a ined as part o f a cyber a ttack o n the DNC o r 25 Mr. Podesta or a bout Hi ll ary Clint o n' s e -ma il s ? 209 1 A. I don't recall hav i ng a co n ve r sat i on with 2 Roger Stone basicall y past the fir st week or t wo of 3 our campaign . 4 Q. So tha t wo ul d have been i n 2015 ? 5 A . Probably . 6 Q. June of 20 15? 7 A. I didn't really deal wit h Roger too much. 8 Q. Who did deal with Roger? 9 A. I don't know if anyo ne did . 10 11 12 I don 't k now that he had an actual role in our campaign . Q. Did he communi cate directl y wi t h your father? 13 A. I don 't know . 14 Q. We ' ve t a l ked a l o t about Russia . 15 have some broader quest ion s about ot he r foreign 16 governments . 17 or provide assis t a nce t o t he Trump campaign? So I Did other fore ign governments o f f e r 18 A. None that I'm a ware of. 19 Q. Did other f o reign nationals o f fer or 20 provide ass i stanc e t o the Trump Campaign ? 21 A. No . 22 Q. Di d you d ir ectl y or indirect l y seek 23 foreign government or foreign na t ionals assistance 24 f o r the Trump campaign? 25 A. No . 210 1 Q . Are y o u awa re of anyone e l se seekin g 2 f o reign govern ment or f oreign n a ti o n a l s assi s t a n ce 3 f or the Trump campaign ? 4 A. I'm n o t. 5 Q . Did you ever t ell anyone that you or t he 6 Trump campai gn would be receptive t o o ffers o f 7 ass i s tanc e from f ore i gn go ve rnments or f orei gn 8 na ti onal s? 9 10 A. No. Q . Did any o ther -- it has been report e d t hat 11 your f ather was at his pri vat e golf c l ub in 12 Bedmins ter, New J e rsey before h e fired forme r 13 Director Corney . 14 weekend ? Were you a t Bedminster that 15 A. I don't beli eve so , n o. 16 Q . Did you talk with your father t hat 17 weekend ? 18 A . Not tha t 19 Q . Did you discuss his firi ng of Direc t or 20 I r ecall, no . Corney with him at a n y poi nt in time? 21 A . No , I don 't be l ieve so . 22 Q . Did you ever di scuss Di rector Corne y' s 23 per formance with your father? 24 A . No . 25 Q . Director Corney t es tified t o Congre ss . Yo u 21 1 1 Tweeted a f a ir amount about hi s testimony? 2 A. Yes . 3 Q. Did you ever di scuss his t est i mony wi t h 4 your fat he r? 5 A. I don 't beli eve so , no . 6 Q. Did you talk about hi s t es timony wit h 7 a nyone e l se in your f amil y? 8 A. No t that I remember , no . 9 Q. Anyone in t he Trump Organization ? 10 A . I thi nk it was a pretty bi g topic of 11 conversa ti on that week . 12 specific t hat I recall . 13 14 15 So I may have , but nothing Q. Did you talk t o anyone about the Twee t s t h a t you put out? A. I got t a l ki ng point s from t he RNC and 16 their communi cati ons department during t hat, but I 17 sort of went o ff o n my own. 18 Q. So you didn ' t coordina t e wi th anyone? 19 A . I heard their talki ng po i nt s , I s aw what 20 21 22 t hey were doing , and I sort o f d id my own thi ng . Q. Di d you get talking point s fr om anyone e l se about Director Corney a t a ny po int in time? 23 A . No , no t tha t I remember . 24 Q. On February 1 3th National 25 Security Adv i sor Mi chael Flynn left t he administration, he e n ded hi s 212 1 serv i ce . 2 Whe n did you fir s t l ea rn he was l eav ing? A. When you d i d p r obably. We ll, you may have 3 known before me because of your position, bu t when 4 the p ubli c f ound o ut I found out . 5 Q. Mr . Flynn had been at Mar- a -Lago wi th your 6 father in t he days around tha t. 7 Mar-a-Lago? A. February? 8 9 Q. And what is your unders t anding of why he left? 12 13 A. He exaggerated a clai m or mi s led Vice Presiden t Pence about some thing. 14 15 I don 't bel ieve so , but I don't know. 10 11 Were you a t Q. And what i s the bas is of that unde r standi ng ? 16 A . Media . 17 Q. Have you d i scussed it with your fat her 18 eve r ? 19 A . I have not . 20 Q. Have you d i scussed it with a nyone else i n 21 the White House? 22 A. No . 23 Q. Anyone in t he Trump Organization? 24 A . No . 25 Q. Were you ever present when a nyone else was 21 3 1 d i scussi ng hi s firin g ? 2 A. No . 3 Q. Were you ever pr esent when anyone else was 4 d i scussi ng Direct o r Corney ' s firi ng? 5 A. No , I don 't be l ieve so . 6 Q. Mr . Fl y nn also had meet i ngs and d i scussio n 7 wit h the Russi an ambass a dor. Yo u' ve spoken abo ut 8 o ne o f them and your k nowl edge of t hat . 9 know o f any o ther s? Do you 10 A . I' m no t aware of any others , no . 11 Q. Di d you know anyt hi ng about h is 12 co nve r sa ti o ns with t he ambassado r a t the e nd o f 13 December 20 1 6? 14 A . No . 15 Q. Do you k now if Mr. Flyn n had c onver sation s 16 wit h any o t her f oreign governmen t o ffi c i a l s t hat 17 have no t been d i scl osed ? 18 A . I' m no t awa r e o f any , no . 19 Q. Have you and your fa t her ever di scussed 20 the FBI' s inves ti gati on int o Ru ss i a n i nt e rfere nce 21 in t he 2016 el ect ion ? 22 A. No , n o t tha t I r e member. 23 Q. Has your fa t he r ever expressed t o you his 24 f rust r at i ons wit h a n inves ti gat ion o f Russi an 25 int er f e re nce? 214 1 A. No. 2 Q . Have you a n d your f at her ever di scu ssed 3 the ques t ion of pardons for indivi duals rela t ed to 4 the investigation o f Russi an int er f erence? 5 A. No , we haven 't. 6 Q. Have you discussed the issue of pardons 7 for anyone? 8 A. No . 9 Q. Lieutena nt General Fl yn n f oll owi ng his 10 leaving the administration , is it your 11 understanding that he resigned or he was fired? 12 13 A. I don't know that I have a n u nderst anding beyond what was reported . 14 Q . He subsequently registered for work he had 15 been doing o n behalf of Turkish interests in t he 16 Turkish government . Did you know about that? 17 A . Only in recent weeks . 18 Q. And how did you learn of it? 19 A . Media . 20 Q . Did you travel to Turkey in t he fall of 21 2016? 22 A. I di d . 23 Q. When did you go ? 24 A . November , mid- November -- or end o f 25 November , maybe earl y December . 215 1 Q. And why d i d you go? 2 A. I was hunti ng . 3 Q. And who arranged that trip? 4 A. I a rranged it wit h a friend o f mine who 5 runs a hunting outfi tt i ng business in Turkey . 6 Q. And who is t hat individual? 7 A. 8 bot c h the last one , 9 a l ong t h at line . I' m go ing to , something 10 Q. And what was t he purpose of that trip? 11 A . I t was hunting . 12 Q. And did you do a n y campaign-related 13 activities while you were there ? A . Campaign-relat ed act i vi ti es? 14 15 was over . 16 17 The campaign Q. Did you do anything r e lated to Trump busi ness whil e yo u were t h ere? 18 A . No . 19 Q. Who did you me e t with while you were 20 t h ere? 21 A . Him , hi s hunting guides , a few people that 22 were frie nds o f hi s , and that ' s about the extent of 23 it . 24 whole time. 25 I had a Secret Service detail with me t he Q. Was Michael Flynn i nvol ved in any way in 216 1 this tri p ? 2 A . No , h e was no t. 3 MR . PRIVOR: 4 5 6 7 Was he ever a t opi c of conve r sa ti o n on this trip? MR . TRUMP : No , he was not . BY MS . SAWYER : Q. In additi o n t o a n y cont act s you mi ght have 8 had , did you ever have any cont acts or 9 communi cation s with DC Leaks ? 10 A . Who? 11 Q. DC Leaks . 12 A. Never even heard o f DC Leaks . 13 Q. What about Guccifer 2 . 0? 14 A . I don 't believe so , no . 15 Q. Have you had a ny contacts wi th Lieutenan t 16 General Flynn since he resigned or was fired? 17 A . I don 't believe so , no . 18 Q. What about your father , has had he any 19 contacts with him? 20 A . I don 't kno w. 21 Q. And have you personally had a ny con t act 22 wi th Pau l Manafort s ince h e resi gned as campaign 23 manager or cha ir on August 18 , 2016? 24 A . On August 1 8 , 201 6? I ' m sure I hav e . 25 Q. Do you recall what tho se interact i ons were 217 1 about? I don ' t know. 2 A . Casua l. 3 Q. When was t he last time you interacted wi th 4 hi m? A . I think he came by my offi c e sometime 5 6 early in t he spring . 7 Q. What do yo u co n s ider ea rly in t he spring? 8 A . Probably March . 9 Q. March of 2016? 10 A . Yes -- no . 11 Q. 20 1 7 . 12 20 17 . Sorry . And that ' s the l ast you recall havi ng met wit h him? 13 A . Correct. 14 Q. Have you had a ny discussio n s wi th your 15 f ather about the con g re ssi onal i nvesti gat i o n s? 16 A . No . 17 Q. Wi th anyone else in your family? 18 A . Ot her t han cas ual good luc k kind o f thing 19 from my bro ther , no , not extensively . 20 no . Not at all , 21 Q. What about Mr . Kushner? 22 A . I've spoken t o him o nce or t wi ce wit h 23 counsel , bo t h counsel present , but not extensively, 24 no . 25 Q. And d id you t a lk to him before he spoke 218 1 2 wit h the Senate Intelligence Committ ee ? A. I don't think I did . I mean, l et me No t specifically about t hat . I' m 3 rephrase that. 4 sure I spoke with Jared generall y , b ut not about 5 those issues and not about his testimony . 6 Q. I'm talking about t he investigations . 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. And what about after his testimony before 9 10 the Senate Intelligenc e Committee? A . Like I said , I ' ve spoken to him, but I 11 don ' t recall speaking to him about that 12 speci fi cally . 13 14 Q. Have you ever interacted with Attorney General Sessions ? 15 A. Yes . 16 Q. When have you interacted with him? 17 A . On the campaign. I did a few campaign 18 stops with him , a f ew in Texas and in the s o uth . 19 So I knew him f rom that. 20 21 Q. And what about since the e l ec tion, since Nove mber 8 , 201 6? 22 A. I don't belie ve I've seen him si nce . 23 Q. Were you aware of his mee ti ngs with 24 25 Russi an Ambassador -A. Let me correct that for one seco nd . Since 219 1 the e l ec ti o n or s ince the i na ugurat i o n? 2 seen him as part of the transition team a ft er the 3 election , but since t he inaugura t ion I don 't 4 be li eve I've seen Senat or Sessions. 5 6 7 I may have Q. Did you have any role in the transition team? A. Initially getting things rolling, but no . 8 Once it was c l ear I wasn ' t going t o D. C., I largely 9 removed myself from all of that. 10 11 12 Q. So were you involve d at all in selecting the transition team? A. Selecting the transition team? There were 13 some people I was involved in at the beginning of 14 t h e process, yes. 15 Q. And who were those individuals? 16 A . I was involved somewhat in vetting people 17 for the Department of Interior, involved in some of 18 the people -- in talking with some o f the people 19 and various other things, but primarily Interior. 20 Q. And why t he Departme nt of Interior? 21 A . Because I' m an outdoorsman , I campa igned 22 o n a l ot o f those i ssues , hunters a nd fisherman a nd 23 shoo ters around the country . 24 thing for me . 25 It was a relevant Q. What did the vetting process entail? 220 1 A. Meet i ng people who would be able to do a 2 good job in that position and introducing t h em to 3 my father and ul tima t ely getting his take . 4 Q. And did you perform any due dil i gen ce as 5 part of that vetting? 6 transition t eam? 7 Was any required by the A. The team d i d more o f the dil i gence once we 8 sort of narrowed down a group that would be good 9 for the role . 10 11 Q. And do you know who on t he transition team was responsible for that vetting? 12 A. Specific vetting , no , I don't. 13 Q. And you weren ' t involved in any o f the 14 specifi c vetting ? 15 A. No . 16 Q. And do you remember who speci fi cally you 17 recommended to become part o f the admi nistra tion? 18 A . I recommended Ryan Zinke . 19 Q. Anyone else? 20 A . Not that I 21 Q. We re you aware of Attorney General remember , no. 22 Session s meeting with Russian Ambassador Sergey 23 Kislyak? 24 A . No . 25 Q . Did you become aware of them at a n y time? 221 1 A. From the media , yes. 2 Q . So not prior t o that? 3 A. Correct. 4 MR . PRI VOR : A couple moments ago you 5 mentioned a mee ti ng wi t h Jared Kushner with counse l 6 and I think you said you t wo counsels were present . 7 Who were the two? 8 9 10 11 12 13 MR . TRUMP : Lowell and you guys . MR . FUTERFAS : I don ' t want to go into privi l eged ques tions . MR . PRI VOR : I'm not asking abou t a privileged conversation . 14 MR . TRUMP : 15 MR . PRI VOR : 16 His counse l I believe is Abbe Was anyone e lse present? I don ' t believe so . So it was you , Mr . Kushner , a nd your r espective lawyers? 17 MR . TRUMP : 18 MR . PRIVOR : 19 MR . TRUMP: 20 MR . FUTERFAS : Correct . No one else ? No . When you said present, I just 21 want to be very c lear some o f those conversations 22 could ha ve been been by pho ne as we ll ? 23 24 25 MR . PRIVOR : Understood . Thank you for the clarifi cation . MS . SAWYER : I think that ' s it for u s f or 222 1 now . We 'll go o ff t he r ecord . 2 (A s hort break was had . ) MR. FOSTER : 3 4 2 : 30 . 5 we 'll be done . It ' s EXAMINATION BY MR . FOSTER : 8 9 We ' re back on the record . We have a co uple more quest i o n s and I think 6 7 It' s 2 : 26 . Q. There was a referenc e e a rlier i n the int e r vi ew to somet hi ng t hat ' s commo nly referred to 10 as the Stee le dos s ier, a c o llecti o n of me mos by 11 Christopher Steele that have been rel eased to t he 12 press . 13 existence o f that set of memos refe rre d to as t he 14 Steele doss i er ? Whe n did you first become aware of the 15 A. I believe whenever the medi a announ ced it. 16 Q. So you didn 't have any prior knowledge of 17 it t hrough a ny co nversations with your father about 18 his conversations wi t h Direc tor Corney or anyone in 19 the intelligenc e community about that document? 20 A . No, I don 't be li eve so . 21 Q. And you wer e as ked a couple questions 22 earlier about your knowledge of t he Corney firing or 23 discussions about Mr. Corney ' s performance . 24 t o ask you a more genera l question . 25 have a n y co nversat i ons wit h your father about hi s I want Did yo u ever 223 1 conve r sa ti o n s with Direct o r Corney p ri o r t o Direct o r 2 Corney be i ng fi red ? 3 A . No , I didn 't. 4 MR. FOSTE R: 5 6 7 Senator Franken i s i n t he room . MR. DAVIS : 10 11 I have have one more quest ion or li ne o f questi ons . 8 9 I'll no t e f o r t he r eco rd t hat FURTHER EXAMINATI ON BY MR . DAVI S : Q . So t he Republi can Na ti onal Conventi on was in J ul y of 201 6 , as I ' m sure you recall. 12 A. Yes . 13 Q . I n J une o f 201 6 do you recall e f for t s by 14 vari o u s so - called Neve r Tr ump Move ment s t o u se 15 pr ocedura l t ac ti cs s uch as fr eei ng del egat es t o try 16 to t hwar t y our father f r om t aki ng t he nominati on a t 17 t h a t con venti on ? 18 A . I heard abo ut t ha t. 19 Q . Do you remembe r if t hat was a t opic of 20 d i scussi on througho ut June withi n the Trump 21 Organi za ti on ? 22 A. It wouldn't have b ee n wit hin t he 23 organi za t ion , but it woul d have b een within t he 24 campai gn . 25 Q . On Ju ne 15t h both t he Smo king Gun and 224 1 Gawke r released wha t t hey clai med was a fil e o f 2 opposition r esearch on your f a ther tha t had been 3 ob t a i ned t hrough the DNC hack by Guccifer 2 . 0 . 4 That r e l ease came in t he midst of the Never Trump 5 effort s t o thwart your father's efforts to seal the 6 nomination . 7 tha t r e l ease a mong the Trump Organization or Trump 8 campai gn? 9 A. No , I do n't. MR . FOSTER: 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Do you recall any conversat ions about We ' ll go off t he record . It' s 2 : 33 . (Whe r e u pon the proceedings were adjourned at 2 : 33 p . m.)