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TO: ALEC

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FROM:

SUBJECT: EYES ONLY- DETAILS OF[]DECEMBER.2002 INTERROGATION SESSIONS WITH 'ABD ALRAHIM HUSAYN MUHAMMAD 'ABDU NASHIR
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111359
IDEC 02
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DEC 02 STAFF

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11359

.TO:

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DIRECTOR.

PRIORITY ALEC INFO

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FOR:j

SUBJECT:

EYES ONLY - DETAILS OFL_JDECEMBER 2002 INTERROGATION
SESSIONS WITH 'ABO AL-RAHIM HUSAYN MUHAMMAD 'ABDU NASHIR

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REF:
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TEXT:

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COMBINE: COMPLETE

c::::::::J

1. ACTION REQUIRED: NONE FYI.
WILL SUBMIT PARAS SEVEN
EIGHT BELOW IN DRAFT INTEL FORMAT; DEFER TO HEADQUARTERS FOR THE
1

AND

DISSEMINATION OF OTHER DETAILS BELOW.

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SUMMARY:
~==~~-=~~~~===-~~~~~====-~
INTERROGATIONS OF SENIOR AL-QA' IDA OPERATIVE
MUHAMMAD I ABDU ( (NASHIR) ) AKA MULLAH ( (BILAL) ) (SUBJECT)

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2.

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DURING THE
INTERROGATION, WHICH LASTED APPROXIMATELY TWO HOURS, SUBJECT
CONTINUED TO PROVIDE VAGUE AND OFTEN CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS,
DESPITE INTERROGATORS' REPEATED STATEMENTS THAT ONLY IF SUBJECT
PROVIDES ACCURATE, COMPLETE INFORMATION NOW CAN HE HOPE TO MAKE HIS
LIFE MORE BEARABLE AT THE "MUCH WORSE" PLACE THEY HAVE ASSURED HIM HE
IS GOING.

L __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _~

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4 . SECURITY TEAM BACKED THE HOODED AND SHACKLED SUBJECT AGAINST
THE WALLING PANEL WITH THE TOWEL/NECK RESTRAINT OVER HIS NARROW
SHOULDERS. HVTI
AND LINGUIST~-~ STRODE, CATLIKE, INTO
~=~~

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DEFTLY REMOVED THE SUBJECT'S BLACK HOOD WITH A SWIPE, PAUSED, AND IN
A DEEP, MEASURED VOICE SAID THAT SUBJECT - HAVING "CALMED DOWN" AFTER
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HIS (STAGED) RUN-IN WITH HIS HULKING, HEAVILY MUSCLED GUARDS THE
,PREVIOUS DAY - SHOULD REVEAL WHAT SUBJECT HAD DONE TO VEX HIS GUARDS
TO THE POINT OF RAGE. SUBJECT, BLINKING IN THE FLUORESCENT LIGHT, DID
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A FEW CHARACTERISTICALLY FLICKS OF HIS TONGUE, REACQUIRED HIS NERVOUS
TICK, AND IN A FRAIL, SQUEAKY VOICE, REPLIED: "NOTHING."
SLOWLY SHOOK HIS HEAD, SIGHED PATIENTLY, AND FIXED SUBJECT WITH A
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PIERCING GAZE.
TENSED, PEN AND PAD AT THE READY AND EAGER FOR(b)(3) CIAAct
THE BILINGUAL BLITZKRIEG TO BEGIN. IN A MEASURED VOICE,
TOLD (b)(3) NatSecAct
SUBJECT THAT NOW, SUBJECT WOULD HAVE
ANYTHING ON SUBJECT'S MIND, BEFORE
QUESTIONS, IN HIS OWN WAY.

AN

OPPORTUNITY TO TALK ABOUT
WOULD ASK HIS OWN

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SEEKING TO IMPRESS UPON SUBJECT
L__TH_E_S_E_VE_R_I_TY
__
O_F_H_I_S_P_R-ED_I_CAM--ENT--AND_j ELICIT MORE INFORMATION, I

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EXPLAINED TO SUBJECT WHY SUBJECT WAS ONLY MAKING THINGS HARDER ON
HIMSELF.
BEGAN.

"YOU HAVEN'T GIVEN US ANYTHING THAT'S HELPFUL,"L___ _

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"SINCE THE MINUTE YOU STOPPED TALKING ABOUT PORT RASHID YOU

HAVE GIVEN US NOTHING. YOU TOLD US A LITTLE ABOUTL___ _ _ _ _ BUT
WE HAD TO SQUEEZE IT OUT OF YOU,"

SAID, WRINGING HIS HANDS IN

FRONT OF SUBJECT'S FACE. "YOU ARE EITHER PURPOSEFULLY TRYING TO

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CONFOUND US - WHICH WON'T WORK - OR YOU ARE JUST BEING IMPRUDENT.
THIS PLACE YOU'RE GOING, IF YOU ACT THERE THE WAY YOU'VE BEEN HERE,
THEY WILL TRASH

YOU,"~EXPLAINED.

YOU, BUT THESE MEN"

-L______j POINTED

"I WON'T BE THERE TO HELP

TO THE SECURITY TEAM - "WILL."

SUBJECT WAS TOLD THAT "THIS IS NOT A JOKE, AND I'M NOT TRYING TO
TRICK YOU. IF YOU PROVIDE INFORMATION I WILL HELP YOU, BUT IF YOU DO
NOT YOU ARE HEADED FOR THE INNER RING OF HELL, AS MY FRIEND TOLD YOU
BEFORE. " SUBJECT BEGAN TO PROTEST THAT HE HAD TOLD EVERYTHING HE KNEW
IN DETAIL AND WAS "NOT RUNNING AWAY FROM THE SUBJECTS,

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BUT

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INTERRUPTED HIM, SAYING "THAT'S THE WAY IT IS. ACTING CONTRIVED OR
UPSET WON'T WORK A BIT OUT THERE. THE ONLY THING THAT WILL WORK IS

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MORE INFORMATION."

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INSTRUCTED SUBJECT TO TALK ABOUT THE MEN

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CIAAct:NVoLVED IN THE PLANs AT THE PORT oF JEDDAH.
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"RIDICULOUS";

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INTERRUPTED HIM AND SAID HE DID NOT WANT

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SUBJECT TO TALK ABOUT RIDICULOUS IDEAS, BUT TO TALK ABOUT REAL ONES.
SUBJECT SAID THAT "OTHERS" HAD TOLD HIM ABOUT SURVEYING THE PORT OF
JEDDAH FOR TARGETS THERE,

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ITOLD SUBJECT TO GET BACK TO PORT OF JEDDAH,

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I"LISTEN TO ME, "I
ISAID
FOR EMPHASIS, GRABBING THE TOWEL NECK RESTRAINT. "YOU PLAN OPERATIONS
AGAINST MY COUNTRY, AND YOU JUST SAID THIS IDEA WAS USEFUL.

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SHOUTING NOW, CONTINUED, "I WANT TO KNOW YOUR
REASONS FOR THIS." SUBJECT BEGAN BABBLING AGAIN, SAYING THAT HE HAD
SEEN SOMEONE ONCE IN
BUT THE RELATION WAS NOT DONE
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.I

9
fELEASED THE TOWEL NECK RESTRAINT AND STEPPED BACK.
"LET ME EXPLAIN YOUR DILEMMA,"
SAID. "WE WANT YOU TO GIVE
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INFORMATION, BUT YOU.DRIBBLE IT OUT. BECAUSE OF THIS WE DON'T BELIEVE (b)(3) CIAAct
ANYTHING YOU SAY ANYMORE, OR ELSE WE OVER-INTERPRET WHAT YOU FINALLY (b)(3) NatSecAct
DO SAY. THIS IS YOUR OWN FAULT, AND IT WILL HURT YOU. THE STORY YOU
JUST TOLD ME IS, FOR THESE REASONS, HARD TO BELIEVE. YOUR STORY IS
REASONABLE - BUT BECAUSE YOU ARE SO DAMNED DIFFICULT, WE CANNOT
BELIEVE IT. WE ARE ASKING NICELY NOW, BUT WE HAVE TOLD YOU THAT YOU
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ARE ABOUT TO GO TO ANOTHER PLACE. YOU DON'T PROVIDE INFORMATION, AND (b)(3) CIAAct
IT IS GOING TO GET YOU HURT. I HAVE TOLD YOU I WILL NEVER LIE TO. YOU, (b)(3) NatSecAct
AND I AM NOT LYING TO YOU NOW. "
10. ONCE

FINISHED TRANSLATING THIS WARNING,

TOLD

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11.

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WALKED AWAY AT THIS POINT AND CONVENED WITH.

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_jPERSONNEL ABOUT SUBJECT' S STATEMENTS FOR A FEW MINUTES o WHEN HE

RETURNED TO SUBJECT'S CELL, HE POINTED OUT THAT SUBJECT HAD NEVER
BEFORE MENTIONED ANOTHER MEETINGF-L-_________________l-"T._..O'---WH=I._...C=H_.S__..UB=JE~CT
REPLIED

"NO

BUT I WANTED TO."

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12 o SUBJECT ASKED HIMSELF ALOUD WHAT ELSE COULD BE SAID ABOUT
RAMZI BIN AL-SHIBH. SUBJECT OFFERED UP THAT HE HAD ALWAYS CONSIDERED
REPLIED WITH ANGER

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POINTED OUT
THAT S.UBJECT HAD TALKED ABOUT PLANS FOR OPERATIONS IN HORMUZ, PORT
RASHID, I
I A SURVEY AT (b)( 1)
THE PORT oF JEDDAH, AND AN oPERATION INI
I AND ASKED To WHICH oF (b)(3) CIAAct
THESE OPERATIONS WAS RAMZI BIN AL-SHIB REFERRING. "I DO NOT DISCUSS (b)(3) NatSecAct
ANY OPERATIONS WITH BIN AL-SHIBH," SUBJECT SAID.

SUBJECT SAID THAT ONCE HE HAD STARTED PLANS FOR THE HORMUZ OPERATION,
HE HAD ONLY THOUGHT OF HORMUZ. TOLD TO SPEAK UP, SUBJECT SAID THAT
AL-QA'IDA HAD "NO SPECIFIC PLAN" IN EARLY 2002, AND THAT HE HAD
BECOME INCREASINGLY OCCUPPIED WITH SUBSEQUENT PLANNING FOR AN
OPERATION AT PORT RASHID, AND THAT HE HAD SPENT "A WEEK OR TWO IN
SAUDI ARABIA" BUT HAD BEEN VERY CAREFUL NOT TO TELL ANYONE ABOUT IT.

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I
ITOLD SUBJECT THAT HIS
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COMMENTS WERE CONFLICTING AND MADE NO SENSE. HOW SUBJECT WAS ASKED
DID HE EXPLAIN TRIPS TO SAUDI ARABIA, FREE TIME, AND VISITS WITH
INSIGNIFICANT PEOPLE TO SEE HOW THEY WERE DOING IF, BY SUBJECT'S OWN
ADMISSION, HE HAD BEEN CONSUMED WITH PLANNING FOR THE HORMUZ AND PORT
RASHID OPERATIONS? "IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE YOU ARE SAYING YOU WERE
BREAKING CONTACT WITH .PEOPLE WHO COULD HELP YOU, "
SAID.
SUBJECT SAID THAT HE HAD FREQUENTLY MET WITH MANY MEN, WITHOUT
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SPECIFIC REASONS TO DO SO.
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15. "YOU ARE A HARD MAN TO BELIEVE,"
SAID. "YOU
CONTRADICT YOURSELF OVER AND OVER. HERE'S A. CHANCE FOR YOU TO
ACTUALLY BE HELPFUL. " SUBJECT WAS ASKED WHAT HE KNEW ABOUT PLANS BY
AL-QA'IDA OR GROUPS AFFILIATED WITH AL-QA'IDA THAT INVOLVED PEOPLE OR
TARGETS IN
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TOLD SUBJECT THAT IF SUBJECT DID NOT BEGIN TO
EXPLAIN THESE MATTERS IN A WAY THAT WAS TRUTHFUL AND MADE SENSE,
WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO HELP HIM. "IT'S ALMOST AS IF YOU WANT TO
~G-E-T~.-INT~O MORE TROUBLE' "
SAID. "I I M GOING TO ASK YOU A FEW
MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT JEDDAH, AND I EXPECT YOU TO DO BETTER. IF YOU.
DON'T, I 'VE ALREADY TOLD YOU WHAT WILL HAPPEN. " SUBJECT BEGAN TO
PROTEST THAT HE HAD TOLD EVERYTHING HE KNEW, BUT
TOLD HIM
THAT ON THE CONTRARY, "EVERY TIME YOU OPEN YOUR MOUTH YOU MAKE
YOURSELF SOUND LIKE SOME STUPID LITTLE HELPER, THE SHAYKH'S LITTLE
ERRAND BOY. "
SAID NOBODY BELIEVED THAT THIS WAS THE CASE, AND
SAID SUBJECT WAS QUICKLY RUNNING OUT OF CHANCES TO HELP HIMSELF.
17.

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HARSHLY DELIVERING
19. INTERROGATION SESSION ENDED WITH
THE BRIDGE THAT SUBJECT HAD FAILED TO DISCUSS THE PEOPLE OR
CIRCUMSTANCES OF PLANS FOR ATTACKS IN WHICH INTERROGATORS ALREAD~:_::Y:____
KNEW HE HAD BEEN INVOLVED, DESPITE BEING FED INFORMATION FROM L___ __
TO PROVE THAT WE KNEW THIS WAS THE CASE. SUBJECT WAS TOLD THAT WHILE
OTHER AL-QA'IDA DETAINEES HAD EITHER UNASHAMEDLY ADMITTED THEIR PLANS
AND INTENTIONS, OR HAD TOLD INTERROGATORS THAT THEY WOULD NOT TELL
WHAT THEY WERE, SUBJECT HAD CHOSEN TO LIE AND TO TRY AND BLAME ALL OF
HIS OWN ACTIVITIES ON HIS SUPPOSED FRIENDS. SUBJECT WAS ASSURED THAT
INTERROGATORS WOULD DO THEIR DUTY AND THAT SUBJECT WOULD PROVIDE THE
INFORMATION THEY KNEW HE HAD, BUT BECAUSE OF HIS OWN CHOICES THIS
WOULD HAVE TO OCCUR "THE HARD WAY. " INTERROGATION CONCLUDED AT 1105

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 This document is from the holdings of:
The National Security Archive
Suite 701, Gelman Library, The George Washington University
2130 H Street, NW, Washington, D.C., 20037
Phone: 202/994-7000, Fax: 202/994-7005, nsarchiv@gwu.edu