Amber McKinney: Welcome to Pro Say, Law 360's weekly podcast. I'm your host Amber McKinney. We've often discussed equality issues in BigLaw, like the struggles for more gender parity or increased diversity, but one area that's often overlooked is the struggle for inclusion if you are an attorney with a disability. So we'll spend the entire show focusing on just that. We'll be joined by senior reporter Brandon Lowrey. He'll let us know the state of play for disabled attorneys in big law. And then senior reporter Erin Coe will stop by the show to highlight the specific challenges facing lawyers with mental health issues. But first I'm here with my co-hosts Bill Donahue. Bill Donahue: Hello. Hello. Amber McKinney: And Alex Lawson. Alex Lawson: Hey guys. Amber McKinney: Guys, we've got a pretty packed show today, but there's some big news going on I think we probably want to talk about. Alex Lawson: Yeah, I mean, we had to alter the production schedule a bit. We're recording on Wednesday instead of Thursday so we could sort of more ably lay out all the great reporting that our team has done on this issue about attorneys with disabilities, but we would be remiss if we did not talk about the trial of the quarter-century, or something that's going on just outside D.C. We're, or course, referring to, we haven't talked about it yet, the Paul Manafort trial. This is the first case to go to trial that sprung out of the Mueller probe, which is investigating Russian interference in the 2016 election. Amber McKinney: Yeah, my husband and I were talking about this and how much we wish it was carried on Court TV, or whatever, because it has that same feeling of the O.J. Simpson trial, like the thing that the whole nation's just was watching. Bill Donahue: Yeah. Alex Lawson: Yeah, I mean it kind of is and it isn't, because, I mean, since ... And we should be clear, and for reasons that I will explain very soon, by the time you listen to this there may be a verdict and we just may not be able to talk about it in full with you until next week's episode. But it's important to kind of re-center exactly what's at issue here, because even though Manafort was indicted and taken into custody because of what the Mueller probe uncovered, and he is, of course, Donald Trump's former campaign manager. What he's on trial for actually has nothing to do, or not much to do with the work he did on the campaign, or really anything even to do with the Russian government. He is basically on trial now in Virginia for basically what amounts to tax evasion, concealing the source of funds that he received for his lobbying work. Alex Lawson: Yeah, and like bank fraud and all kinds of stuff like that, so that's what's going on, and it's him and his former business associate is a guy named Rick gates who we've talked about on the show, and Gates has actually flipped, and he is the sort of star witness for the prosecution. And he was at the center of a lot of the prosecution's arguments, which is basically ... I mean, he was saying, "Oh, yeah, what Paul Manafort would do is he'd get all this money form these foreign governments, or foreign lobbying groups, or whatever it is, and he would then conceal it through the use of shell companies." Amber McKinney: And some other fun things. Alex Lawson: And some other things. It came to light- Amber McKinney: This is my favorite part. Alex Lawson: It came to light during the prosecution's half of the case that he had purchased a very expensive ... I think it was like a $15,000.00 ostrich coat. Amber McKinney: We need to- Bill Donahue: Man, we're talking $32,000.00 couches last week, this time we're talking ostrich. Alex Lawson: Yeah. Amber McKinney: $15,000.00 ostrich coat. You know we need to take a- Bill Donahue: Coats. Amber McKinney: Beat right here. Bill Donahue: Yes. Amber McKinney: We need to take a beat right here to talk about, did you guys see the pictures of these? Alex Lawson: Yeah, yeah. Amber McKinney: Because that's the best for me. Alex Lawson: [crosstalk 00:03:17]. Yeah, unfortunately this is audio. I mean, and it's one of the gaudier coats. Amber McKinney: If any of the listeners haven't, just ... You need to Google it because there was the ostrich coat, but there were several others, too, where you just- Alex Lawson: Well, you know, the ostrich coat. Amber McKinney: It almost looked like ... like a sad gangster kind of vibe. Alex Lawson: Right, well the thing that's really- Amber McKinney: Like they're flashy and weird. Alex Lawson: The thing that's really funny about it is that it's like he purchased these expensive ... He is alleged to have purchased these expensive things with his quote "dirty money" and then try to sell them off later to clean the money. That's how money laundering works, which is very funny to picture him acquiring this coat and then trying to sell it to somebody else. Amber McKinney: Right. Bill Donahue: Right. Amber McKinney: Right. Bill Donahue: I think I'd buy some less, like ... I don't know. Less ostentatious stuff. Alex Lawson: And you know, I mean we've all- Bill Donahue: Buy like a 2010 Camry, resell that. Amber McKinney: You know, who hasn't put something on Poshmark to resell it later? I mean, there's options here. Alex Lawson: We've all seen Pawn Stars. We know you're going to take a loss on the ostrich coat. But anyway, okay, so that's all the stuff that kind of came out on the prosecution side. The other thing was that when the defense was crossexamining Gates a lot of this stuff turned into a referendum on his personal life, and this is where it got really ugly, and just frankly strange. The whole thing is weird, but they uncovered not one, but at least five, purported sort of extramarital affairs that Rick Gates had in an attempt to sort of discredit him as the star government witness. And he said, "Actually it is Mr. Gates who is running the ostrich coat racket, money laundering extravaganza." So anyway, those were sort of the broad strokes of the prosecution. Yeah. Bill Donahue: But so the prosecution rested. Where are we now? Alex Lawson: Well, it's funny you should ask, because the reason this moved so quickly and we were caught a little off-guard in terms of when the verdict might come down is because the prosecution rested earlier this week, and then it was Manafort's team's turn to go, the defense, and instead they decided not to do anything. Bill Donahue: Your honor, we have nothing to add. Our client is kind of a bad guy, did some light treason, and let's just do this thing. Alex Lawson: So yeah, the defense rested entirely. They did not call one witness or even present any evidence or do a case as it goes. And the reason- Bill Donahue: That's the legal term, doing a case. Amber McKinney: Well, let's talk about that, though. Alex Lawson: Doing a case about a guy perhaps doing crimes. Amber McKinney: I mean, it is a really ... it's a bold move, but they had reasons for that. Alex Lawson: This is in the bold strategy cotton quadrant. Amber McKinney: So let's explain to people a little bit about what the strategy here was. Bill Donahue: It is a tactic that is done. Alex Lawson: Well, yeah. It's funny because there's a lot of eyeballs on this case, but what you often hear in opening remarks is when the defense makes its arguments. You know, it will sometimes literally spell out for the jury, you know, the burden of proof is with the prosecutors. They have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. We could do nothing. We can sit over here and like barely be paying attention, and if they leave a shred of doubt for you, the juror, you have to acquit. And but- Amber McKinney: I mean, not to get too back in my law school days. Alex Lawson: Yeah sure. Amber McKinney: This is a mens rea thing, right? Alex Lawson: Yeah. Amber McKinney: Where the whole deal is that the prosecution had to prove not only that he did certain things, but that he had certain intent. Alex Lawson: Yeah. Alex Lawson: Without a doubt. And like I said, the burden of proof is entirely on them. It happens, but you don't often see people take that to its actual ... it's often a rhetorical device. Those people often still present a case even if they don't have to, right? Well, they haven't here. They said, "We're resting." There have been many analyses that sort of, including ours by Chuck Stanley who's been all over the trial just outside D.C. He talked to attorneys who were basically like, "Yeah, you know, if they thought that the prosecution didn't quite do a good enough job, then yeah, I mean, why not just let them face [crosstalk 00:07:08]?" Amber McKinney: Well, it's also this thing, too, where it's like if it really is all about, or a big part of it, about the intent here, in some ways it puts the prosecution in a tough spot when they can't cross-examine anybody or look at certain evidence that they presented, so yeah. It just leaves them saying, like, “Yeah, believe us. Here's all the facts. He clearly had the intent." And by them not presenting Manafort on the stand or anything like that- Alex Lawson: Well, yeah, they were never going to put Manafort on the stand, but now they have not given the prosecution the prosecution the opportunity to poke holes in their version of the story, right? That's what it comes down to. It's like they think silence can sort of speak more volumes here. It doesn't always bode well for a defense. Amber McKinney: No. Alex Lawson: You'd like to make an active argument in an ideal scenario, but that's where we're at now. They did closing arguments today, on Wednesday as I said, and we'll see. Given how this has gone it could be a short deliberation or a long deliberation, I don't know. But that's where we're at. We'll possibly have more for you sort of coming up, but now I think we have sort of more substantive things to talk about. Music: [Music Playing] Amber McKinney: Are law firms letting down attorneys with disabilities? Law 360 set out to answer that question, and one of our senior reporters, Brandon Lowrey, is with us today to let us know what we found in our special report. Welcome to the show, Brandon. Brandon Lowrey: Hi. Good to be here. Amber McKinney: So we're going to get into some of the individual stories that you have in your article about what's going on with some of the disabled attorneys in BigLaw, but let's do a bit of an overview first. How is BigLaw doing when it comes to people with disabilities:? Brandon Lowrey: I think generally not great. There has been a lot of movement in terms of racial and gender diversity at law firms, a lot of discussion about it, a lot of data that kind of shows some movement there, but when it comes to people with disabilities it is not really talked about as often. You see affinity groups for all kinds of different things, but it seems some of the least common are affinity groups for people with disabilities. Alex Lawson: Yeah, you had some interesting stats in your story, and an interesting anecdote that there was only one firm, right, named to a list of organizations that were taking proactive steps here. Brandon Lowrey: Yes. The Disability Equality Index, which has a benchmarking tool that looks at different businesses and gives them a score based on their disability inclusion policies and practices, and fewer than a half dozen law firms even participated in this survey, and there are more than 100 businesses that have actually not only entered for this, or participated in this, but were actually honored in the top 20%. So the only law firm to actually score in the top 20% was Steptoe [& Johnson LLP], and they have a lot of initiatives, and they have participated in this, and they're trying to raise their visibility in this community. But it does say something that fewer than a half dozen law firms even participated in this. Alex Lawson: So it seems like firms ... Seems like what people told you is that firms are really not ... that this is not at the top of their list. Brandon Lowrey: Yeah, and that's one of the frustrations. It's not so much that BigLaw is ... You know, there are all these stories about BigLaw actively discriminating or anything like that. It's more that nobody's talking about it, and that in and of itself kind of has a chilling effect. And I think a lot of firms, they might see themselves one way, but people in the disability community see them in a completely different way. I spoke with Angela Matney at Loeb & Loeb, and she had mentioned that a lot of firms are patting themselves on the back, or see themselves as welcoming, but in reality they're missing out on a whole lot of people. Angela Matney: I think that the immediate need is for firms to really realize that when they're talking about diversity that so often the word disability is never even mentioned. It's never even thought about. So a few firms applaud their initiatives, and rightly so, to work, to make things better for woman attorneys, attorneys of color, attorneys who are LGBTQ, all of these things are great. We need that. But disability diversity is very real, and there, I think, are still a good number of barriers for people with disabilities who want to enter the legal profession. Amber McKinney: So Brandon, we're really painting a picture here where it seems like law firms are really behind on figuring out how to even start talking about attorneys with disabilities. Why do you think that things have moved more quickly for things like gender equality or racial diversity? Brandon Lowrey: Well, it just seems to have been the way that law and public discourse evolved in this country. You have to remember that the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964, and the Americans With Disabilities Act was passed in 1990. That's 26 years later. So we're still grappling with how to deal with racism and sexism in the workplace 54 years after the Civil Rights Act. And it's getting better, sure. Brandon Lowrey: But it's only been 28 years since the ADA came about, so we're just starting to see the first generation of professionals entering the workforce who were born with the ADA on their side, and have the benefit of mentors and leaders who have been empowered by the ADA to lead full careers. Alex Lawson: The other reason that you kind of get at in the story your wrote for us, is that people aren't always very eager to disclose their disabilities, which is a big part of getting accommodations under the ADA. Tell us a little bit about that. Brandon Lowrey: Well, you know, a lot of disability rights advocates have told me that there's a concern about coming out to others about a disability. And you know, it might come as a surprise to a lot of people, that people with disabilities use the term in the closet. And as a society, we kind of understand and accept that people in the LGBTQ community don't always feel comfortable with coming out of the closet, but I think a lot of people don't realize that there are a lot of people with disabilities who are also afraid of coming out. Brandon Lowrey: There are people with invisible disabilities that you might not notice at a glance. They're dealing with their disabilities in secret, because they don't want to be labeled as weak or unreliable, or seen as, you know, the disabled person. So you could have people at the desk next to you, the cubicle next to you, working twice as hard to do the same stuff because they are working in an environment, or on a schedule, that isn't designed to accommodate their needs. Bill Donahue: And I have to think that that impulse is exacerbated by the setting of a big law firm. Brandon Lowrey: Right, right. I mean, anxiety is common for anybody in a big law firm, right? You're constantly having to work towards something else. If you're an associate, you want to become a partner. If you're a partner, you want to become an equity partner. You're always having to worry about how you're being perceived, and your work product, and there's just, there's a lot of worry. Brandon Lowrey: And so, if you add to that the idea of a disability, and an added concern that if you come out with your disability you will be seen as unreliable, or you will be seen as somebody who needs something extra, or isn't fit to travel on a big case. So there are all these concerns that there's just going to be somebody maybe trying to be helpful and not seeing this as discrimination, will end up kind of making things more difficult for them, or essentially putting a limitation on their career. Bill Donahue: And then that lack of disclosure sort of reinforces the situation, right? That folks don't tell anyone, and then no one does anything about anything. Brandon Lowrey: Right. Out of sight, out of mind, right? You have an attorney who won't talk about their disability, won't ask for an accommodation, so the law firm doesn't have to give an accommodation, because it doesn't know. And because the law firm isn't giving an accommodation, this is just not something that's on its radar. Brandon Lowrey: So it's kind of like this ... It's cyclical. You have law firms that don't talk about disabilities and don't make people with disabilities feel comfortable or welcome, or they don't trust that they will be treated fairly. And as a result, they don't come forward. Because they don't come forward, there's still no discussion about it, and it just keeps on going. Amber McKinney: So, we've sort of taken the big picture view here, and talked about some of the issues going on, but I know you actually talked to a lot of individuals and got their unique stories. So can you tell us some of the highlights of your reporting on this, like some of the anecdotes about how it really is for these people in BigLaw? Brandon Lowrey: Well, I know we just listed to Angela Matney at Loeb & Loeb earlier, but I have to talk about her. She has two Master's degrees, one in mathematics, another in Rehabilitation Counseling. And that's in addition to her law degree. I don't remember how to do long division, so even an Associate's degree in mathematics would impress the hell out of me, but you add to that, she was raised in a tiny coal town in West Virginia. Her parents didn't finish high school traditionally, they got GEDs later on. Amber McKinney: Well, I already love her, because I'm also a West Virginia native, so ... I feel bonded to her in this story already. Brandon Lowrey: Yeah, but so take all that, and then add to that, that at Loeb, she's a data privacy expert. So she is one of the few lawyers who gets math and technology. So this is all impressive, right? Ad to that that she's a mother and she has a highpowered career in dealing with these other issues as well, and then add to that that she's blind. And when she's called inspirational, she's angry about that. She gets mad at the word inspirational, because people have told her that she's inspirational for hanging up a phone on its receiver, or walking up a flight of stairs. Alex Lawson: Exactly. Brandon Lowrey: How crazy is that? You have all these qualifications, all these impressive things that you've accomplished in your life, and you're reduced to being impressive for walking up the stairs. Bill Donahue: Right. Amber McKinney: Yeah, that really gives some sense to people of how infuriating this must be for many attorneys, that the smallest things are seen as inspirational, but then on the flip side, BigLaw expects a lot out of people. So even if they do have some challenges, they are reduced to a sort of token inspiration person, or seen by other colleagues like they can't accomplish things. Brandon Lowrey: Yeah, and you know, something she said in the story, she said if you see someone as inspirational for walking up the stairs, how likely are you to hire them? Bill Donahue: Right. The implication is that other things beyond that are beyond your grasp. So it ... Alex Lawson: Yeah. Brandon Lowrey: Yeah, and something that I think that she kind of touches on, and a lot of people I've spoken with have gotten across is that people with disabilities, they don't want pity or admiration, or even in a lot of cases, they're not interested in a quote-unquote "cure." They just want to live their lives. They want what anybody else wants. They have a different way of experiencing the world, but ... And they might even have to take different paths to get to the same goal, but that's just how it is. It's not inspirational, it's not sad, it just is. Bill Donahue: So I know you spoke to a lot of people for this story. Was there anybody beyond Angela that felt like you wanted to bring up. Brandon Lowrey: Ah, geez. There is Anat Maytal at BakerHostetler, and she's kind of the main character in the first story in this package. She ... I met her in New York. She's one of those people who is just like, she comes off as so polished and confident, and like she could say three words to you, and you just get that she's bright. And she would be totally intimidating if she weren't so clearly friendly, you know. Brandon Lowrey: And she's deaf. She was telling me that a lot of people don't realize it immediately. She wears her hair in a way that covers her hearing aid and cochlear implant on her ears, and she speaks pretty clearly, so you might not realize that she is hearing impaired, unless she told you. Brandon Lowrey: And you know, what's fascinating is, is that, you know, we talked about being the in closet. She's a leader in the deaf legal community. She helped found the Deaf and Hard of Hearing Bar Association. But she still wants to be in control of who knows and when, just because it is such a big thing. It's still unsettling to her, even though she's definitely out. Amber McKinney: Well, one thing you mentioned there is that she was part of a bar association for the deaf, and it seems like those kind of groups are really important for this community. Can you tell us a little bit more about what's making this situation better? It seems like mentorship and visibility with groups like that are really important. Brandon Lowrey: Yeah. Well, you know, as you pointed out in the story, the National Association of Attorneys with Disabilities is kind of falling apart, and that was meant to be the all inclusive, major group for attorneys with disabilities. That includes whether you have some kind of a sensory disability, or mobility disability, or mental, learning, anything. It's just meant to be all-inclusive. So as the story pointed out, the National Association of Attorneys with Disabilities has basically fallen apart. And there are some smaller organizations, or more specific organizations that are kind of broken down either regionally or by specific disability, that have kind of sprung up. Brandon Lowrey: And people are able to connect through these organizations, and not ... Her Deaf and Hard of Hearing Bar Association now has more people than the national, more inclusive organization ever had. And what's happening is it's allowing people to network and connect with others, and find mentors and exchange tips, things like that. Bill Donahue: Well, and you mentioned in your story, sort of a personal anecdote of how Anat has now taken on the mentor, or the mentorship, and that she's working with other people right? On sort of an individual basis. Brandon Lowrey: Yes. Well, there's an attorney at BakerHostetler named Michael Sabella, who arrived at the firm after Anat, and maybe even because of Anat. He had heard through a mutual friend, who's also hearing impaired, that Anat was working at BakerHostetler, and so when he applied, he kind of, he had this in mind. Brandon Lowrey: He felt like, okay well, this firm kind of gets it, or this firm at least has allowed somebody like me to be successful. So he gets there and he goes in to interview, and he tells them straight up during the interview that he is both hearing impaired and gay. That is the power that just having somebody there before you can offer. Basically, since then they've become friends and they talk about things. In way he says that Anat is mentoring him or is kind of a mentor to him. But really, she was kind of in a sense, she was a canary in the coal mine. Right? She thrived there and others saw that. And now there is this feeling that, okay, this could be a safe place. Amber McKinney: Thanks for coming on the show today, Brandon, and telling us some of these stories about the trailblazers in this area. Really appreciate it. Brandon Lowrey: Thank you for having me. Music: [Music Playing] Amber McKinney: We're continuing our look at disability inclusion in the legal industry with our next guest, senior reporter Erin Coe. Erin joins us to talk about changes in how law firms are handling issues around mental health. Welcome to the show, Erin. Erin Coe: Glad to be here. Amber McKinney: Earlier we heard from our colleague, Brandon Lowrey, about he overall picture for disabled attorneys in BigLaw. But you wrote about a very specific subset of people, those that are facing mental health issues. Can you tell us a bit more about how the challenges for those attorneys are different from those with physical disabilities? Erin Coe: Sure. My story focused on illnesses that sometimes are considered invisible disabilities. For many, that might mean depression or anxiety. But it could also mean conditions like bipolar disorder, attention deficit disorder, or schizophrenia. These conditions may not be immediately apparent, but they can definitely have debilitating effects on people. When you're working at a place like BigLaw, where there are really long hours and the constant competition in the industry just doesn't stop, that could sometimes make lawyer's symptoms even worse. Bill Donahue: We heard from Brandon about the difficulty of folks disclosing disabilities in the law firm setting. Do we have a sense of just how prevalent mental health issues are in the legal sector? Erin Coe: Yeah. There've been some recent studies, particularly in 2016, that I think were the most comprehensive studies. One was done by the ABA and the Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation in 2016. And it found that 20% of lawyers have some level of depression. And that's actually much higher than the broader population in the US, where less than 7% of US adults are dealing with depression. Amber McKinney: Wow. That's a big difference. Erin Coe: Yeah. And actually, there was another study done by ... It surveyed a number of law students, I think about over 3000, and it found that 17% of them were dealing with depression. So you can see that it's quite a jump compared to the broader population. Alex Lawson: Yeah. That's interesting. You get into whether people were carrying this with them before, or if like you were saying before, it's probably accentuated by pressures of the job. But one thing that we know from the data you've presented there is that there's plenty of attorneys and perhaps future attorneys dealing with stuff like this. But when it comes to accommodations that they are legally entitled to under the Americans With Disabilities Act, you're required to disclose your condition under that law. But what we've been talking about here is that there's a lot of stigma around this, especially within the BigLaw context. Can you talk about that a little bit? Erin Coe: It's been incredibly challenging for lawyers to come forward and disclose they have a mental health condition that they may need an accommodation for. And one source at the American Bar Association was mentioning to me, at certain firms it doesn't really feel like you even have an option to disclose that because if you say, "I want to let you know I have depression, severe depression," or whatever it is, that might be the end of their career. Alex Lawson: Right. Erin Coe: And he actually called it the kiss of death at some firms. Firms are going to be thinking about their clients. There's a stigma sometimes still around dealing with somebody who may be having something difficulties at the moment managing a mental illness. Alex Lawson: Yeah. And you can see how that can kind of take root. I mean, there are stigma like that, that exist in lots of context, but especially in the BigLaw context where often this stuff is very adversarial. It's very high stakes. It's almost a competition. You can see how it would not create in a lot of contexts a very open sort of environment to just be plain spoken about stuff like that. Erin Coe: Exactly. There's plenty of reasons to keep things quiet on the attorneys' end. We're talking about an industry where lawyers are closely scrutinized over and over again. Their competence, their fitness is being studied and judged by bar examiners, by attorneys at their own firm, opposing council, clients, judges. Everybody's watching them. And people want to guard as much ... They want to protect their professional reputation. That's everything. That's their career. And if they feel like disclosing that could undermine their reputation or just throw it under the bus altogether, then they're going to guard against that and not disclose. It just makes it harder. Amber McKinney: This all sounds pretty terrible, Erin. But your story actually also focused on how some of the stigma is starting to fade in the legal industry. What exactly is happening now and what can people look to with a little bit of hope about this situation? Erin Coe: Yeah. I was really happy to dig into this issue and see that there are signs that the legal industry is changing, and also just seeing that there are firms that are taking more proactive steps. I talked to Hogan Lovells and Akin Gump and both of them actually offer onsite mental health counseling services. Hogan Lovells started offering those services back in 2016 in its DC and New York offices. But it's also expanded those services to other offices as well, Baltimore, Denver, and I think it's actually looking at Louisville, Kentucky next, some of their busier offices. Amber McKinney: That's a really proactive thing to do because lawyers are in their offices more or less all the time, so it's bringing the services right to them. Erin Coe: Right. Yeah. And I think it's just letting attorneys know that this is something that law firms are starting to take seriously and acknowledge, which I think is a really huge, big step and definitely is something that a lot of firms have not done, so this is really a big move I think. Amber McKinney: You also interviewed several attorneys who were open about their mental health issues. What did they have to say about how things have changed in the legal landscape? Erin Coe: Well, I think that the stigma isn't ... It's not gone away. It's not disappearing overnight. It's something that's going to take a lot of time. But I think that just there is just these feelings that there is a change going on. And they want to be part of that. And I think that because they had some difficulties coming out with whatever mental health condition they had, they want to make it easier for the people that are coming up later, so it's not so hard for them. Erin Coe: One of the people I talked to was a lawyer named Joseph Milowic. He's a partner at Quinn Emanuel. And he decided to come out about his depression the he's been dealing with for about 10 years. And he came out with his depression this year. And he's hoping that he can help other attorneys, especially those who are young, they're starting out. They may not exactly realize what's going on with them right now. I mean, depression, some of the symptoms you may not realize that it is depression. It could be, you don't know what. And I think there's a lot of uncertainty and just fear of: What's going on with me right now? Erin Coe: And you feel pressure to keep that to yourself. And he's kind of opened that situation up so people aren't so afraid to feel like if they disclose something like this, that's it for their career. He actually started an online support group called the No Time Group. Amber McKinney: We've talked a lot on the show in a lot of contexts about diversity issues, about how representation is very important. I feel like this is really similar where, as people speak out, the younger attorneys can see that they maybe can speak out too because something terrible hasn't happened to someone else's career. Alex Lawson: It's significant too when it comes from a leadership perspective too, like we're talking about this Quinn Emanuel attorney. It sort of gives, like you say, it can open the door. Bill Donahue: Well, and like anything else that we've talked about with trying to change the way that law firms work, it needs more than just a policy. It needs buy in from everybody. The real question is whether or not it changes the status quo, whether it changes the practice versus what the policy is. Erin Coe: Yeah. I mean, I'm thinking with some of these law firms taking the steps that they're taking and some of the lawyers coming out now, some in higher positions, that this really is showing that there is a shift in the legal industry. And it's for the better. Amber McKinney: Erin, thanks for coming to talk about this. This is a really big issue and I'm glad to see that some daylight's being brought to it. Thanks for being with us. Erin Coe: Thank you. Music: [Music Playing] Amber McKinney: Guys, I'm glad we did a good overview today with our show of our disability report. But I want to let all the listeners know that there's a lot more that we've covered. Check out law360.com for more stories about that. And I also want to thank my co-hosts for being with me. Bill. Bill Donahue: See you again next week, guys. Amber McKinney: And Alex. Alex Lawson: Thanks. Amber McKinney: I also want to thank our producers, Kelley Marcano and Steven Trader, and our special guests this week, Brandon Lowrey and Erin Coe. Music for the show comes from Silent Partner and Little Glass Men. And if you like our show, you can subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher and leave us a review. Thanks, and join us again next week.