Melissa Hoskins (co-chair, Cherokee), Christine Harley (Piscotaway), Chris Dykas,
Allison Curseen, Jason Tompkins, Ananda Timpane

YB: Yeworkwha Belachew, I am the moderator, I don?t really know how I got to be the
moderator rather than being here last year so? maybe that?s why. ?rst I would like
to say a little bit about what we need to have ?om the observers. Thank you all for
coming and we want to make sure that you reSpect that this meeting is only for the peeple
who are at the table. Your role isjust to listen and to learn as much as we?re about to
learn. Maybe what I need to do is introduce who you are and just tell us a little about
what organization, what department or why you?re here. Just brie?y: we have a very
limited amount of time.

AG Miller: Hi, My name is AG Miller, and I teach in the religion department and I was
invited here as an observer because of my interest in the mascot issue.

Diana Roose: I?m Diana Roose and I work in President Dye?s of?ce. I?m here
representing President Dye.

Zina VonBossay: I?m Zina VonBossay, conservatory student and I?m here with the
American Indian council.

Peter Dominguez: I?m Peter Dominguez and I?m a professor of jazz studies id double
bass in the conservatory and also the advisor to the American Indian Council.

Laurie McMillan: I?m Laurie McMillan in the writing and compositing program and also
in the department.

Rachel Beverly: I?m Rachel Beverly, I?m with the Multicultural resource center and my
of?ce works closely with AIC.

Peter Goldsmith: I?m Peter Goldsmith, I?m the Dean of students

Maricar My name is Maricar, I?m a student of Oberlin and I was invited as an
observer.

YB: Doesn?t look like there?s anybody from the Review. Let me say a little bit about the
housekeeping, and then (we) will introduce each other here. This conversation will be
taped and it will be in the archives for student use, so they can get permission to listen to
it and hopefully we will also transcribe it only for this group. Including Mr. Dolan. If
the Review was here we would have asked to take two pictures, (maybe) one at the
beginning and one at the end. Amber, you can do that later, or maybe if anyone else
would like to take pictures. What else: In terms of the time, we don?t know where we?re
gonna go so we?re going to stay within the two hours, but if the meeting gets redundant
we may have to step back and come back (for) some other time. So we can use the time
effectively. If it goes well, we will check later on and see if we want to move on with it.

It just depends. Okay. Now it looks time for we want to go around the table
and introduce ourselves? Okay.

Ilana Turoff: My name is llana Turoff, I?m a second year, and co-chair of the American
Indian Council this year. I?m here representing the Blackfeet Nation, and also a student
of mixed blood. I?m part Russian! Jew, and Latina. So, representing a lot of
communities.

Amber Schulz: I?m Amber Schulz and I?m representing the Yakama Indian Nation. I?m
an Oberlin College Alumni and the founder of the American Indian Council. And I?m

also of German Descent.

Melissa Hoskins: I?m Melissa Hoskins, I am the other co-chair of the American Indian
Council. I?m a senior this year and I?m representing the Oklahoma Cherokee Nation as

well as some German and some English (as well).

Christine Harley: My name is Christine Harley and I?m a senior (this year) at Oberlin, a
politics major. I?m from the Piscotaway Indian Nation which is a southern Maryland
Tribe. Its not federally recognized. I?m also part Korean and a member of the American
Indian Council, Asian American Alliance, and the Oberlin Korean Association.

Chris Dikas: My name is Christopher Dikas; I?m a ?rst year student. I went to a high
school that had a Native American mascot.

Jason Thompkins: Good afternoon, my name is Jason, junior, third year. I?m on this
panel, I was asked by Ilana and Melissa to join. I am a moderator for Zami, queer and
questioning students of color on campus and I?m also involved in the third world program
house (which) we deal with third world programming issues along with the third world
And other things on campus.

Allison Curseen: My name is Allison, I?m a second year, um, I was asked because I?m
also Catholic and I?m involved in the Catholic community in some ways, and I?m a
member of third world co-op.

Ananda Timpane: My name is Ananda Timpane, I?m white-American. I ?ve been
involved in AIC for a number of years now, and it has been a long-standing concern of
mine. Both regards to the mascot Specifically and Native American issues in general
since I was very young.

Larry Dolan: I?m Larry Dolan; I?m ?rst a trustee of Oberlin College, Also the owner of
the Cleveland Indians.

YB: Thank you. There are some observers over there, would you like to say your name
and why you?re here?

Mark Grahm: I?m ((mark grahm)), I?m a student senator.

Antionnette Charfous-McDaniel: I?m Antoinette Charforus-McDaniel; I?m in the
sociology program.

Carrie: My name is Carrie (gilly); I?m a representative of students of Caribbean ancestry.

YB: okay, thank you. I just wanted you to know that this meeting is only for these
people, so just listen and please don?t respond to any of these peOple.

First of all I would like to Thank Mr. Dolan for Opening up the door for a dialog that is
very important to all of us. I think that the last meeting was the breaking point for us to
have an opportunity to be with you. Also, to respond to most of your questions,
especially towards the end of that meeting we had such a positive experience and h0pe
because you asked for the group to really give you as much information can for you to
learn. So, because of you we?re also about to learn a lot more than we know and 
very grate?Jl for that. I?m also grateful for Amber for coming back. (At) the ?rst
member of this community, Amber was the one who started the organization and so its
only ?tting for her to come back and then maybe even to see how many others who have
brought back to Oberlin. For the rest of you, I also want to thank you for all of the work
that you have done that Amber and her peers left off, in terms of the education, research,
and all other stuff. I think that your work also is going to be as important as Mr. Dolan?s
request in terms of education and process. So, this meeting is free ?owing, But I would
like to see if Amber can start the meeting and then hopefully at the end I would like Mr.
Dolan to give us the last words and then we?ll take it from there. And h0pefully we can
have a positive experience like last year.

Amber: Well, I would like to begin by presenting you with Paci?c Northwest smoked
salmon to thank you for coming here. I know that this isn?t always easy, so this is just a
present to say thank you. I think a good point to start off with would be, well, last year
we had a lot of meeting of the minds and not so meeting of the minds, and many issues
were brought up. And, I think I?d just like to begin with (kind of) knowing your feeling
from last years meeting and your responses, and maybe some thinking that you have done
over the past year, since that meeting.

Dolan: Well, in the spirit of the last meeting I think candor is the only thing that is going
to be useful in a discussion of this type, so let me start out. Frankly I was disappointed. I
read some of the transcripts in the last twenty minutes, but the sense of the last meeting,
as I read it, I think you would have gotten from me a certain amount of understanding of
your point of view without a whole lot of agreement to it. And then we talked I thought
with some Speci?city about what what do we need to do to close that gap? And, my
disappointment comes from the fact that until just two weeks ago, a year had gone by and
I hadn?t heard a thing. So I made an assumption that maybe this is just a typical college
experience where folks get excited and then the moment passes and the passions not there
and the matter goes away. So two things: I was disappointed that seemed to be the case,
because I thought there was more substance and I?m pleased you?re back.

Amber: Larry, I would like to respond to that. Just because I did try to write you a letter
in March did you ever get the letter? Because I tried to give it Nancy again this summer,
and asked her to hand deliver it to you. What I?m saying is that I don?t know how to
contact you. I felt the same way, that I wanted to keep communications going over the
year, and I got addresses and e-mail addresses and

Mr. Dolan gives business card to Amber

Thank you very much. I?m saying that the effort was there, and I?m sorry that you didn?t
receive it.

Dolan: you have to have some recognition of certain limitations. I do not recall receiving
a letter from you. I believe I would, but it has been my experience that more often than
not lately I don?t? remember if something has occurred and I (might get out)

Amber: Well, and I understand if some things you don?t get, but I did try to send it a
couple of times over the course of the year, and I guess assumed that when I didn?t hear
back from you that either you were very busy or that hadn?t received it, but I was at my
limitations of how I could contact you.

Dolan: Telephone goes straight to my desk.

Amber: All right.

Ilana: Did you receive a letter from me this summer as well? Because I sent one.

Dolan: I?m sorry?
Ilana: Did you receive a letter from me as well? Because I sent one as well.

Dolan: I have to stand by my opening statement: I haven?t heard from you. Now that
may be some problem with our communication, and I allow for the possibility that I did
and I don?t remember, but I doubt that because I did have a focus on it.

Amber: Well, thank you for your contact information. You?ll de?nitely be hearing from
us. The effort was there.

YB: Is there anything that you would like to address? (Perhaps 

Ilana: Even though you haven?t heard from us, just in terms of your thinking on this
issue, do you understand our point of view a little bit better do you think?

Dolan: I don?t? think that I have any confusion about your point of view. I feel I I felt
last time the passion that exists, the depth of the sentiment, it was troubling to me then
because I didn?t? feel it. So there has been a certain heightened sensitivity on my part
over the year that has gone by to be aware of where these matters may exist and I don?t
see them. And a certain initiative, I suggested in the comments last time we travel a
great deal in the southwest in the wintertime, so my wife and I made an effort to stop and

visit with Indian groups and raise the question to them. It (kind of) got down to
something of a science, dialogue went something like this: After we established why we
were talking, ?what do you think of Wahoo?? There are notable exceptions to any
generality, but I would say in general 50% of the people who understood what this
dialogue was going to be all about expressed a great deal of abhorrence towards (the)
Wahoo. Totally supporting your general position. The other 50% didn?t care. They
weren?t supporting Wahoo, they just didn?t? care. One fellow who (said he) was on the
tribal council said,?look, we have 50 issues, if we ever get to Wahoo it will be 48 or
For what it?s worth. At the ballpark itself, we have the Opening day presentation
again, and that?s it. Some letters sent to me by people who kind of quote, ?how could you
possible think (about) having this racist ?gure Wahoo representing the team? Well, I get
letters of that type representing many facets of what we do. How could you possibly sign
what kind of an idiot are you? So its individual passions that
are there. I am fundamentally in the same place as I was last year. The needle has been
moved some degree, where (there) is a concern that I?m missing something. Um. But,
whatever it is I?m missing, whatever the disconnect is between me and you folks just a
few feet away, I don?t? know what it is. I suggested last time that maybe, because of the
generalities of your position, are dif?cult for me, you make a broad statement and you
say it from your position which I have to respect, I don?t in any way dispute it nor would
I, but its dif?cult to grasp that and deal with it without some real support of why, why it
is this, You can tell me that Wahoo as a character is bad, and I have no trouble saying
that, but we have got how many pe0ple in this room? I could ?ll this university with
peeple who love Wahoo. Love it. They don?t see your point of view at all. They?re not
disregarding it, they just don?t see it. This is a lovable character and they are proud to
display the caricature, that may be offensive, but from my perspective, that?s what I get.
That?s what I see every day. So when I say the needle hasn?t moved in the last year, one
I haven?t seen an effort to move the needle, nor have I found any experiences outside of
this meeting to move the needle. I will say that for the first time you?re going to be able
to buy a cap wom by the players on the ?eld, there are multiple baseball caps available,
but the authentic ones are the only ones worn on the field, it will not have a Wahoo on it.
But, the uniforms, the combined presentation, will have a Wahoo, every game. By the
players. You may note with some the character won?t be
as large. And is it possible that the character may, the generosity of the smile might be
reduced, yeah, I think that?s coming; that?s as far as it?s gone. You?re going to have to
take the burden a little bit

 

 

(Christine): I wanted to really thank you for what you have done so far. It sounds like
our conversation with you might have had something to do with that, and we think that is
a fabulous start and we?re really excited about it and I would really like to thank you, one
for coming to meet with us certainly, and also for any changes that you were thinking of

making.

Ilana: Also, I just wanted to make the point that you were saying that you could ?ll a
whole college with people who love Wahoo. Do you think it?s so much that they love
Wahoo as much as they love the team, and love. (I mean), I am an athlete, and I very
much acknowledge that sports is an arena in which you have hero?s, and you have this

kind of game played out that you?re supposed to be a role model for the rest of the
community, and you?re supposed to go out there and win, for the pride of Cleveland, for
the pride of Ohio, and wouldn?t you think that any other symbol, anything would
represent that pride?

Dolan: Of course, sure. But, you?re asking me, in effect, to remove a symbol (who?s)
been there for ?fty years. Now that symbol the baseball fanatic they love Wahoo.
And they embraced Wahoo over the years, for me to take Wahoo away from them, they
would not understand that. It would be dif?cult. They would be outraged. If I?m going
to do that, and I?m going to give you any indication that I am, I would have to have an
enormous amount of support.

Ananda: (sorry, I didn?t mean to interrupt), but what if it wasn?t something that was
taking away Wahoo from the Cleveland community? But was instead making an exciting
new change for the Cleveland community. In that is both is both this level that is a moral
issue about racism (we?re saying this is a harmful image), but is also about pride in our
community and stepping forward and having some really new exciting symbol where,
maybe after 50 years it is time to change, so that its not just that we are evil people who
want to take something away from Cleveland. I don?t think that any of us want to take
anything away from Cleveland.

Dolan: I don?t know the answer to that question, it is a fair question. But, I think it begs
the facts that if we?re going to have a new, exciting symbol, that takes time. And we
have one that that?s been there for a long time. I
would have dif?culty seeing (that) the people are going to accept something (besides)
Wahoo simply because we Now maybe over time they would, I
think that if Wahoo was ever going to be taken, removed, it has to be done on the basis of
what you folks are really talking about. There is a general understanding that there is
something wrong with Wahoo. And you?re standing (at the footnotes) looking way up
there, and you can carry that burden, but you cannot, and I offer you no encouragement to
expect that I am simply going to do it, cause you ask. I don?t think I could, if I wanted.
But make no mistake, I don?t want to. I don?t see the reason for it. And I understand,
and I have said to the group before, I know (that this) is a subject of great discomfort for
many Indians, but by your own admissions last time, you recognize that you are a diverse
group. The Indian culture in this country does not speak with one voice. You?re going to
have to get that better organized before you can reasonably expect that we?re going to
make those kind of major changes. Now, before you all throw you pencils away, I?m
speaking about an abrupt change. Now, if patience exists, with no timetable being
identi?ed, similar changes will occur. I don?t know how far they?ll go.

Amber: I think that we?re jumping ahead of ourselves. By saying what if,
Dolan: Just want to know what you?re burdens 

Amber: Right, well, that?s jumping ahead. But you did mention previously that you
haven?t seen any action in the past year to further our stance, and Ijust wanted to let you

be aware that the United States Commission on Civil Rights in April came out with a
statement, concerning images and nicknames of sports team symbols.
Dolan: I?m well aware of that.

Amber: You are aware of that. Well that has happened in the past year.

Dolan: I?m talking about no I?m not: I?m talking about you folks. What
are you doing? I tell you, frankly, three things happened since the last meeting (or maybe
including the last meeting), the churches in Cleveland started to mobilize themselves and
putting on pressure. The ball player, who we were supposedly to have named the Indians
after, what?s his name again?

Genera]: Louis Sockalexis

Dolan: I have trouble with that last his tribe back in Maine

General: the Penobscott

Dolan: Passed a resolution, and they were in touch with us and we chatted with them,
and the civil rights commission, and nothing happened. Where did the churches go?
What happened? ltjust stopped dead. We never heard from the tribe in Maine. They
may have passed a resolution but they must have stuck it in a mailbox somewhere.

Jason: I was just wondering, it seems as though you had expectations from both us and
from other organizations as far as I guess communication and things like that, and I was
just curious as to what type of things you were expecting.

Dolan: Since the last meeting?

Jason: yes

Dolan: Well, expecting would be too strong, but I think I was fairly clear: I need to have
I?m hesitant to suggest how you go about doing me in, but, if this is going to change,
First of all, I think you?re too far reaching. I think you?re making a mistake by calling it
racist. In the dialogue someone said that a young boy had some remarks directed at him
(to do) with the Indians culture, and they were racist. Well, that?s against the law. I think
you set it too high and you?re taking too large of a challenge upon yourselves. To
everyone who wears that Wahoo symbol does not think of themselves as a racist. I?ll get
back, hope?Jlly, to your point. What I was looking for was those types of examples that
peOple understand. If they exist, and frankly after ?fty years I don?t believe that they do.
When I say ?fty years, Wahoo started in 1948, where this has really been (humble). Now
if you take an African American situation, and call derogatory efforts towards them, or
racist it?s easy, they are racist, there?s examples all over the place of how harmful that is.
But I don?t see them as it relates to Wahoo and the Indian culture. I haven?t seen that. A
year ago I was clear on that point. I still haven?t seen one. Does that answer you
question?

Jason: Well, no. I You mentioned that you don?t see the difference, or you don?t see
Wahoo as racist?

Dolan: No, I do not.

Jason: I guess that I?m just interested in your outlook on racism as a person who is a
power?Jl figurehead.

Dolan: how sensitive I am to it?

Jason: No, that?s not what I was saying. I was saying, as a person who is in a position of
power, I think that you have to think of racism on a more institutional level, the way that
you operate and I guess that I see a difference between the way that racism has played out
legally and institutionally in this country and how there is still a moral legacy that is still
in question and I?m curious as to where you stand on certain issues because I haven?t
heard your stance and I was wondering 

Dolan: Can you de?ne those issues?

Jason: Um, I think on this particular issue with Wahoo, I think that there you may
think that this is irrelevant, but just your personal outlook on the way the character itself
plays out. And the way that your institution is run.

Dolan: Irrelevant is not right, not even close. I wouldn?t be here, I take your concerns
very seriously, they bother me. When you individually tell me how it is harmful to you,
and I am unloading that harm, and that disturbs me. And if it was just me and this table,
we could come to an easy conclusion. I don?t want to hurt anybody. 0n the other hand, 1
can not do the things that you want done because you are individually hurt, and I use the
example, last time was admittedly limp somewhat, but I?m Irish American, and I know
what alcohol does to the Irish peOple, I?ve seen the curse, and its bad, and it causes
fighting, and its just miserable. The university I went to, where I got my undergraduate
degree and my law degree from, the University of Notre Dame, the ?Fighting Irish?, and
it had this character like that, that disturbs me. I never wear it. I wouldn?t be seen dead
wearing it, but I?m not going to stop some one else from wearing it.

Jason: That?s the question (I guess) I?m trying to get to and I?m sorry if I didn?t articulate
it well, is at what point do we say that this IS offensive and goes beyond that, is
Operating on a more institutional level to perpetuate racism and other things and at what
point do we say that this is something that we?re going to take action on, and I feel that,

I?m curious to you 

Dolan: don?t know how to answer that question. If the African-American situation,
the Aunt Jemima and those type of characters, they don?t exist anymore. What happened
to them?

Jason: (They do, actually).

Dolan: Why did they go away? When you look back today, how did they ever exist in
the ?rst place? I don?t know. But Wahoo, and other Indian characters have not reached
that level. I don?t know what it takes.

Ilana: I would like to direct respond to that kind of progression. And talk about it a little
bit more in terms of de?nitions of racism. Racism involves a lot of power dynamics.
Who is de?ning the images. In this instance, it is founded within a white community and
you have the white community imposing, or setting this image in mass media across the
United States. Umm, Now the Native American community, it is less than one percent of
the US, and through years and years of genocide, it doesn?t have a lot of the strength that
it once had. Now, a lot of the problems that exist today within that community are
directly related to that struggle for identity and struggle to get (ting) back what it
originally was and feeling marginalized within this society. And if the only images (sat)
out there in mass media are things like chief Wahoo, you?re going to see young kids
wearing Wahoo hats. because there is nothing else for them to represent themselves.
And, its not that it?s even just the Native community, because although that?s directly
affecting (them), if you look at the white community, it affects that majority as well.
Because everyone gets the sense of, ?that?s what Indians look like,? (y?know) even if its
I have a story of that if you would like an actual (example)

Dolan: Please.
Ilana: Laurie McMillan, story), but her ?ve year old son came home,
Dolan: I?m sorry, who?s ?ve year old son?

General: Laurie?s

Ilana: home with a pair of wahoo socks that he had gotten from a friend, you
know, part of the Cleveland community, and she tried to address to him why it was
wrong to be wearing these socks and (was like) ?do you understand what this means??
And this little ?ve year old says to her, ?But mom, that?s what Indians look like.?

That is where the danger is. That?s a form of racism. It perpetuates stereotypes. And it?s
harmful because, y?know: I don?t feel as though I?m anything like Wahoo. I don?t feel
that I?m (even) remotely (like Wahoo): what the goofy Indian is supposed to represent or
the drunken Indian or anything like that. I?m not that at all, and I don?t want it to
represent me, or be the only image of me.

Dolan: That?s the best argument I?ve heard yet. Those are the stories that I?m talking
about

Allison I would like to clear up something, that Mrs. Butterworths is still on the
shelf,

Dolan: I?m sorry?

Allison: Mrs. Butterworth is still very much an Aunt Jemima kind of ?gure as well as
Uncle Bens: They?re still on the shelf and you can still go to the supermarket and they
still make me blush and thank goodness nobody can see me blush, but, they are, it is
something that affects me, and I also wanted to comment on, I do agree in terms of (an)
organization and pulling together. When you want to make something happen it needs to
be organized. But also, needing to recognize the infrastructures of how (like) the civil
rights movement, and how (like) African American communities are largely based on
churches and mutual aid societies and we are not, black people, even though we may be
diverse we are not (necessarily) different tribes who may not be friendly with each other
and have different histories, it is not the same infrastructure lot easier in that sense (in talking purely) in the way something is set up to form a
community when you don?t have those kind of divides, and also in terms of numbers of
African Americans as opposed to indigenous people, there is a difference.

Ananda: I wanted to speak to a couple of things. I have two stories and also, about what
you were saying, about people, why peeple in Cleveland are wearing, and not just white
people, but people who are wearing Wahoo not thinking of themselves as racist.

Dolan: I don?t think that it?s a white issue.

Ananda: No, it, you?re right. It?s many peeple. But having that, it isn?t something that
people recognize as racism, and I think that that is part of the concern that I have, and I
think that many of the people at this table have. Is that, its SO acceptable that the harm
that is done by it is made almost entirely invisible. And, that you were traveling and
started asking questions I think is really really great because you started to see some of
the community response, but I think that normally there are very few venues for Native
Americans or even other Americans to really have an alternative point of view on Wahoo
visible, easily, so I would say that I think that its normal that people don?t see themselves
as racist and that that doesn?t really reduce the weight of the issue and I have two stories
about the effects of Wahoo. When I was in high school I had a very close friend who?s
family was of Mohawk heritage, and I?m from Western Massachusetts and there?s no
land base in Western Massachusetts. And to my knowledge there are no native
communities in Western Massachusetts. But he had a strong investment in his heritage
even though he had no access to information about his family history or who might
actually be members of his tribe around him in the area, and Wahoo became a really
painful way for him to see himself and he wore a lot of the memorabilia, but I also had
long conversations with him about how pain?rl it was that that was the only thing the only ways he could start conversations with his friends about the
fact that he is native. So that was one story and the other story is from the Cleveland
area. Miss Charfarous-McDaniels Daughter, actually, is I believe six, and she saw
something that looked like the shape of Wahoo, and she said, ?Hey mommy, look: that?s
an Indian.? And, Miss Charforous didn?t mention it, but she?s a Paci?c Islander so she is
also of Native descent in a different part of the United States. And it was an education
process that needed to happen there for her to (have) to say to her daughter, ?well, you?re
actually an Indian too, did you know that? And do you know that Indians don?t look like

that, they look like you and me, and they wear normal clothes and some of them have
money, and some of them don?t have and so it?s a self identity that children,
are also seeing this as who they are and its painful for other community members to have
to explain that its NOT who they are, but its also, it fundamentally forms their identity
even if they have access to other information. That they are always going to be
incorporating symbols like Wahoo into what it means to be Native American in the
United States. And so they?re always going to be fundamentally incorporating racism
into their self-identity. And I think that is very harmful on a large scale.

Amber: I think that what is harmful about it, is that the depiction of Wahoo, is not one of
honor. I mean you think about, (y?know) what kids identify with in terms of their
images, you know, think of other cartoon characters or caricatures, you know, and who
does everyone want to be for Halloween, y?know? Do they want to be Jughead? Or do
they want to be Superman? They?re going to choose the powerful image, and when the
only image that we have to identify with is one that is kind of a mockery, kind of a joke,
kind of a joker. . .y?know? I don?t see how he would be an honoring image. So in
developing that image and saying ?I?m Indian, this is what my image is, that is a
detriment to their own identity.

Dolan: This book, which I didn?t not read all of, since I got it, was that all reference to
Indians in the form of mascots or team names should be obliterated. I?ll come back to
that. But what youjust said, and what youjust said, not of honor, just for discussion
purposes, if Wahoo looked like the ?gure used by the Chicago Black hawks, digni?ed,
proud Indian, is that acceptable?

Amber?: but is that digni?ed and proud? Black hawks: is that the headdress, it?s
a pro?le. ..

Dolan: it?s a pro?le. I would use the same question with the Washington redskins but I
think I would get into too many problems.

Amber: Another problem with that is this is going to start tying in religion to it, is,
the costumes that Indians are shown wearing, the feathers and everything, are of, well if
they?re used, they?re used with religious aspects.

Ananda: Religious signi?cance.

Amber: Okay, when they display, Indians and they?re using feathers, feathers are used in
religious ceremonies. It?s kind of like, depicting, its kind of like having using
religious icons for a Sports team. Do you see what I mean: Like if we were to have the
Irish Catholics, and everybody had crosses on their uniforms. I think that a lot of Irish
Catholics would be upset by that.

Dolan: I would hope so. I?m not sure, but I would hope so.

YB: I?m going to ask a favor: I?m going to take stacks and instead of interrupting,
please just look at me and I will point at who?s going to be talking so we won?t interrupt,
and also if there is a point when we are at impasse we can take a in off time
so you can come back to it later. I just think that we can do, also that This is just
conversation we just can?t ?nish this in one day. So, stay with in one topic and if you
feel that you?re ?nished, we can go to another one.

Amber: okay.
Yb: is that acceptable?

General: yup.
Yb: Christine:

Christine: Yeah, I guess that uh, I think that there are multiple sides to racism and how it
manifests in society and I think that the particular usage of mascots, of Indian mascots is
one in which America has effectively erased the history of native peOples in this country,
and the only way that it comes out is through these mascots and through these images that
erases. Okay, I already said that. And, when I was going up, I grew up in Maryland, and
so I grew up with the Washington redskins as my particular mascot. And when I was
little I would go to Indian Pow Wows wearing a Redskins jersey and my brother would
be wearing a Redskins jersey and we were big fans of the Redskins and we were, and I
remember growing up watching old westerns with my Father and you know and seeing
the Apache Indians always being slaughtered by the white soldiers. You know and so
this was the kind of imagery that my father was passing down me. And while I was
growing up we would have conversations and he would talk about how that wasn?t really
true and how that wasn?t really what Indian people were really like but 

<<Christine continues>>

Playing with my cousins, and this is how we were supposed to be Indians, and my
Grandmother having to sit down and say, ?no this is not what Indian people do and this is
not an honor to us.? Um, and so you have these images and you?re trying to ?nd yourself
somewhere and this is what we hold on to. And you know and there?s this usage of this
loveable feature and you don?t see like hatred and you don?t see anger and it?s very like

(jaldy?) sort of character you know Redskins or whatever you know and you
have this erasage of Indian people into these caricatures and then the reverse side of that
though is that if there was to be a change that occurred with Chief Wahoo, if there was
gonna be a change that occurred with the Redskins, the backlash that you would receive
would be these all of a sudden these very racist epitaphs. You know we have stories of
people saying ?We should have killed you all off when we had the law on our side, when
we could have done it.? You know, Indian peOple have been 90 percent wiped out and yet
because there?s a few who are still left saying, ?We want to be proud of who we are.?
And you can?t, without people yelling at you and telling you that they wish we had
?nished dying. My nation is not recognized by the government because we were

slaughtered. So there is this very racist dynamic that takes place where you have this
lovable feature that as soon as you try change that to reassert that ?No I am Native
American and I am not this character that you see.? that they wished I was dead and gone
and I had never existed. So I think you have this binary of what is considered racist and
how racism gets manipulated by mass media and how we internalize these characters and
we internalize these images and how they do embody racist stereotypes and they do
embody these racist histories of genocide and oppression and erasure of history. So yes,
you know the Native peeples in this country aren?t 100 percent saying, ?We need to get
rid of all mascots.? But at the same time the Native peeples of this country are 100
percent behind saying, ?We need to erase the lack of education, we need to gain
education in our communities, we need to get health care, we need to have you know we
to get rid of this poverty rid of this alcoholism.? And there?s all of these things that come
down that are a result of US. policies towards Native communities but also the lack of
you know we don?t don?t have the communities don?t have self esteem
and we don?t have heroes to look up to and when you do have heroes if like Lewis
Akalees um, they die from alcoholism. They die you know like the heroes that we can
get are still effected by these issues that effect our communities. And so we?re trying to
survive and we?re tryingjust to like make that next step to be able to feed our children
and to have loving families and have healthy communities you know and so we don?t
have time to always like run around and you know and talk about mascots but I think that
mascots are central to the images that we get, the images that we don?t receive and the
kinds of things that are given to us.

Dolan: Thank you.

New Woman: I guess I had a story about a young Indian girl in Cleveland who um,
about a young Native girl in Cleveland, 

Man: Is that you

Woman: No, I?m not from Cleveland. But Bill Loretto?s daughter, she?s in middle
school in a Cleveland area school and she has been, um I suppose she has had her own
struggles with identifying, and she?s decided that she does not want to identify with Chief
Wahoo. Her school has a mandatory pride day where everybody has to wear the
memorabilia, everybody has to wear something with Chief Wahoo on it and also they sell
tickets in school and she, they asked her, they said, you know ?It?s your turn (or
something), to sell these Indians tickets,? and she said ?No I really don?t want to, I don?t
agree with the mascot, I don?t want to sell the tickets.? And they told her that either she
sold the tickets, or they would suspend her for a day. And she said, ?Okay well then I?ll
be suSpended.? And there?s another time when she went to school on this day, and she
tried to turn her T-shirt inside-out so that she wasn?t wearing the ?Wahoo? and she got
called down to the principal?s of?ce and they said, ?You have to turn your shirt right-side
out, you have to participate this is Cleveland Indians pride day.? And so what happens is
a lot of kids end up just missing school on those days so they don?t have to deal with that,
they don?t have to see that.

Man: I know you want to get in, and I want to come back to that.
Woman: Ok, you want to direct response, please.

Man: Well, that?s unacceptable. I can?t, I don?t even know that tickets are being sold in
the school. Up until last year, we were sold out for ?ve years, all the tickets were gone.
Now you?re telling me we?re trying to sell tickets in school and we make kids sell the
tickets, that?s not acceptable. I that is the Cleveland Public School System? Can you
get me the name of the school? It will not happen again.

Woman: Okay, I can get that to you. I don?t have it right now.

Man: Give me the time; I don?t need names, [okay] just the time and the school. I?ll ?nd
out whether or not we?re using children as sales for our tickets. We don?t need to do that.

Woman: I wanted to kind of come back to something you had said earlier about how
within the African American community that there?s so many instances of the image and
there?s so much evidence and obviously Sambo is wrong, and all these images. Do you
acknowledge that just because something isn?t accepted in the present as racist, that could
possibly, 1 mean you know Sambo certainly when it ?rst came out was not acknowledged
as a racist symbol but now it is. Could you acknowledge that Wahoo would be the same
thing?

Man: Yes I can. Listening to you folks, it?s the only place I ever hear it, but I would
have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to see it here.

Jason?: Ijust wanted to speak in responses to the things you said earlier in reSponse to
what Amber was saying, in regards to discussing other Indian mascots of other sports
teams and things like that referring to some things as the way you perceive them, other
mascots to be less offensive, or more offensive?

Man: Do I see it that way? Yes. I see some that I would consider from your point of
view, if I am allowed to do that, more offensive and less offensive.

Jason: Yeah that?s exactly my concern, the concept of you, being in a
position of power, and you are in a position of power. You have a large large large large
impact on the images that we see and I think just the fact that you are in a position of
power where you can de?ne what a Native American looks like, and how the imagery of
Native Americans are used in the media, and you do have that power, I feel that there is a
higher level of reSponsibility and a higher level of awareness that needs to take place and
I am just curious as to just your thoughts as opposed to just the history of I don?t know, I
just, if I were running a Sports team, with a mascot, I would have put a lot of thought into
the images I?ve put out, I would have put a lot of thought into the history of certain
things, and I don?t know, I am just curious as to how you think about that type of stuff.

Man: I accept the responsibility. I know it?s there. And I am sure this is totally
responsive but if I didn?t happen to be an Oberlin trustee, then we wouldn?t be having
this conversation and I would still be the same person that I am but I wouldn?t know.
Now how am I getting educated?

Jason: Well, that?s my question, the fact that you- own the Cleveland Indians and the fact
that you have this mascot, that you, if it weren?t for this meeting, then you wouldn?t even
be cognitive of thinking about that image and its impact.

Mr. Dolan I would see it on Opening day, and that?s it.

Jason: Yes, that?s exactly what I am concerned about, that we have these images in the
media that have been taken totally out of their context and there?s no link to its history
and I think that in a position of power, I know if I was in a position of power I would
de?nitely work to inform myself about that history and take a more proactive roll in that
and in my responsibilities of how the image is used at least on behalf of what I control.

Mr. Dolan: I?m trying 

Mediator: Can I say something again Amber? I just want to tell you, that Mr. Dolan that
you have no obligation to be in a position like this but we appreciate the fact that you
want to do this.

Mr. Dolan: I am not doing you, or maybe I am doing you a favor, it?s the wrong
terminology, but I have to know, I can?tjust say, ?Well because 80 percent of the pe0ple
say it is right that makes it right,? I need to know. What continues to bother me what
bothers me in this case is I thought there was substance in our last meeting but nothing
came of it. They didn?t really care, and I don?t get it from anywhere else. I don?t.

Mediator: okay, thanks.

Amber: ljust wanted to go back to what Melissa was talking about and how the child
was personally affected in her school environment because you were mentioning people
who don?t want to participate don?t have to and in Cleveland you were also saying that
because Cleveland is so fanatic, but I don?t think that?s the case anymore. I think that the
child was de?nitely put out of their way, de?nitely changed their well I mean, couldn?t
go to school that day, you know that?s a day of learning you know and so what I am
saying is that it is not as easy for if you don?t want to participate in it to not participate in
it (that?s what I heard-DOLAN). And it?s almost like there?s racism against people who
won?t, I mean not racism. (Interjects: identity, prejudice), against you know because of
this mentality.

Mr. Dolan: And what if he just moved from say Detroit, and he lived in Detroit for four
years, they?re a Detroit Tiger fan, do they have to wear their Cleveland Indians shirt to
school that day?

Amber: Well yeah, I would guess that they would, and they would probably be given the
same to suspend a child.

Mr. Dolan: That?s nonsense, that?s fundamental nonsense; I can?t even come to grips
with the thinking that does that.

Amber: Right right yeah I know but what I am saying is that its, you think that its
innocent enough that people want to you know that people are just displaying their pride
but this image at least in Cleveland is going beyond that, it?s going to absolute
nationalism. Or cityism, I guess.

Mr. Dolan: Yes, it is very recognizable.

Amber: It is and I am not saying that it?s your fault that this girl was suspended but I am
saying that it isn?t as innocent as I think that you think that it is.

Mr. Dolan: Well, I ?m not sure that the teacher who said that had any idea of racism
involved. They probably had a quota to ?ll and you?re all going to do it so you all will
do it, couldn?t care less what your reasons were. That?s a substantial lack of sensitivity
on his or her part.

Amber: Right, but this child was de?nitely put out of their, they can?t continue life as
normal for simply not wanting to participate.

Mr. Dolan: And I?m not going to tell this, suggest to the schools that they don?t treat
their children one way or another. [right. But they will not sell Indian tickets
and use children as missiles, that?s my concern.

Amber: Well, I understand that as your concern, I?m saying but also with the spirit day
it?s not, I guess I?m banging this, but it?sjust not as innocent if you don?t want to
participate, it?s not as easy as that. It affects your life.

Mr. Dolan: Just. Did that teacher understand why that child did not want to participate?

Melissa: I think that her father might have tried to talk to them as well and they were
still, that she was not participating and she was going to be suspended.

Boyish voice: As I mentioned before, I ?m from a small suburb of Los Angeles it?s
Taurance California. I went to West High School and our mascot was the Washake
warrior. You mentioned before that from an understanding of our opinions there may be
different levels to which we would ?nd Native American mascots offensive, but that was
actually the same type of stance that my school district took on this issue. We, back
when I was a freshman, or perhaps the year before that, we had a person dress up in what
are very commonly believed to be the stereotypical adornments of Native Americans, and
this person would run around the ?eld and perform whatever antics necessary to entertain
the crowd in between plays during the football game. But eventually the school board
admitted that this was an inappropriate mascot to have and so they abolished it, however,

currently to this day still on every piece of letterhead, on every folder that we get, on
every planner that we buy from the school, there is still an image a pro?le of it?s not
necessarily its not a caricature, however, it is still a troublesome image it is more realistic
in that it looks like a person and not a cartoon however at the same time it still carries
damaging effects. One, because in all honesty, I didn?t view this as a problem until about
a year ago when someone ?nally addressed it to me and talked to me about it. In and of
itself, I feel that that is one of the problems that I did not see this as an issue because from
the moment I stepped onto my campus, this issue, this image was everywhere and
therefore I was conditioned to believe that it was acceptable. I never really had a chance
to come up with my own opinion because the administration was pushing this forward
and continuing it. The school board said ?It?s not okay to have someone dance around
but its okay to have it on our letterhead.? That in and of itself is one of the problems I
feel more directly to the Native American community in America when pe0ple who are
outside of the Native American community see these images, they really are taught to
believe that is what Native American people look like especially when they see it in
different places. It?s notjust the Cleveland Indians that has this image, it was my school
that had that image, other schools certainly in California have that image, other schools
around the country have similar images and so just the commonality of these images
gives them a sort of legitimacy,just seeing them so frequently enforces it even more.
They?re not the same image, however they are the similar and therefore since they all
have feathers in their hair or braids or have bows and arrows, that shows to pe0ple, or
leads them to believe that they are legitimate and that is also a problem because when
people stop learning, or feel that they don?t need to learn anymore, when people say ?Oh
bows and arrows, feathers in their hair, long dark hair, face is shaped a certain way,?
when people think that they know enough, they stop making an effort to learn and when
they stop making an effort to learn, they don?t learn about the real issues, the real issues
like suicide rates like alcoholism rates, the issues like gambling, people don?t see the real
problems that modern Native Americans have. They are they get pushed onto them,
these images of what maybe old Native Americans may have had and they are told to
believe that this is what it still is. And when they don?t see that right in front of them,
when they don?t see pe0ple going to their school who may be Native American, but um
don?t wear feathers in their hair, they can?t put two and two together they can?t say that
this person is a Native American necessarily because they don?t look like the what they
have been taught to believe that Native Americans look like, and I think that is one of the
problems, we forget to learn to keep learning about these issues and we become satis?ed
with what we are shown.

Mediator: Thank you

Girl (Melissa maybe?): I guess I think you?ve been saying that outside of Oberlin
College, outside of this space you haven?t really been receiving feedback and you haven?t
really been hearing from Indian peoples or other arguments and I guess I keep coming
back to it because I think that I don?t understand like you said there are certain gaps, you
feel that you feel you understand our position then there are certain gaps in the way that
you feel and the way that we feel and I kind of wanted to ask about those gaps because
when I think about the Indian community, and I think about issues of suicide and of

alcoholism and of poverty that are affecting the community that we?re struggling to
survive as a community and to ?gure out how to bring our communities into the rest of
American society that allows us to be holistic people and not stereotypes of the 19'h
Century Indians that we see on T.V. and stuff. When we?re trying just to survive and
then it?s really hard to look at the mascot as being the number 1 issue and yet even
though it?s not the number 1 issue on our plate, that there have been Indian peOple in
Cleveland and across the country that is in Cleveland I would say for the past 30 years
who have been going to the stadiums and trying to maintain their jobs and their families
and their lives but still going to the stadiums because it is an issue. But after 30 years and
after 30 years of being ignored and whatever, you know it gets really dif?cult to continue
to hold down your 3 jobs and go to the stadium every baseball game. And I think when
you say that you haven?t heard this from other places, I don?t think that?s true because I
think it was quite easy for us to go on the Internet and ?nd the U.S. commission on Civil
Rights, that there is a changing National movement that is taking place where 600
colleges, high schools, universities have been changing, have been going through the
process of changing their mascots and changing their names, because I think that the
jump between recognizing that Sambo and Aunt Jemima are racist images does not, is not
a big jump to understanding that Wahoo and other mascots are racist images and so
people have been taking that understanding not just the Native American community but
other Americans have been taking that understanding and using that to change the images
and so I don?t know what exactly what you need more.

Mr. Dolan: Well, I?m not engaged in an investigation. Perhaps in your perSpective I
should be, but I?m not. When I left this session over a year ago I learned some things and
halfhearted efforts while we were traveling to learn more but I don?t go on the Internet
and ?nd out what?s going on. Maybe in your perspective I think I should, from my
perspective, no. You want something down here. You?ve got the burden. I don?t have
your pain. I am beginning to feel it a little better, but I don?t have it. I think the burden is
still with you to be persuasive and if we ever got to the point where I came back to you
and said, am persuaded.? It wouldn?t yet be enough. We would have to get together
and persuade the masses, or at least put it out in front for them to see. Because there is no
way in the world, in the practical world am I going to announce tomorrow that Wahoo is
gone. That would be ?nancial ruin. Now, that?s what you want to hear, but that?s not the
criteria that you?re interested in. That?s what you?re asking me to do. If we were to
decide that this, (and we?re a long way from there) this ?gure needs to go, we?d have to
sit down and work on a program where we get the community to start to accept that idea
before it happens.

Younger girl?s voice: I kind of wanted to address the ?nancial aSpect of it. That in I
mean, you have, Wahoo is the second largest selling mascot of any baseball team.

Dolan: I?m sorry.

Girl again: Wahoo is the second largest mascot of any baseball team in the major league?
Is that true?

Dolan: Who sells more than we do?

Everyone: ((Laughs))
Dolan: I think that is close to being true, yeah.

Girl: I think that attests to the great marketing campaign that you have already with the
Cleveland Indians, a marketing committee that could sell just about anything. And if you
look at speci?c instances like the Arrows for instance that changed their mascot and had
millions of dollars in returns and boosts because there?s memorabilia and there?s new
products and look at this great thing that we can sell. You know? It?sjust a matter the people.

Dolan: Sure it is. I know that. Why did the arrows change?
Girl: Because of this kind of same. ..

Dolan: Who did it? The guy didn?tjust decide he was going to do it on his own.
Somebody had to persuade him, and they must have used evidence of some sort.

Girl: I am sure there are many, many more positions to offer there

Dolan: Do any of you know how it was done? They?re only 30 miles from here, less
than that from here. You've got to do those things, ?nd out ?Why did they do that?? It is
in our market area. I might make some inquiries of my own.

Girl: Ok, I just wanted to continue in that line also that as a trustee, I mean, yes, we are
working together to obviously persuade you to not have this symbol. But also as a
Trustee of Oberlin you have a responsibility to us as well in terms on the
committee for Student Life, correct?

Dolan: Yes

Girl: As students of this College, as Native students of this College, seeing that image
anywhere and especially because it?s saturated in this area, is really harmful. I think that
that?s also part of your responsibility, ?thhering the drive that things should be going
towards.

Dolan: You would have the university somehow issue some dictate that Wahoo would
not appear on campus in any form whatsoever, and anybody who wore Wahoo would
somehow be punished?

Girl: We can?t do that. We tried that.

Dolan: No. You shouldn?t even try it. If you?re underlying principle is correct and it truly
erases symbol, it ought to be done, but that?s the whole issue. How do you persuade

society? Not to persuade me, but I won?t change people. I may make it easier on some of
the anecdotes you?ve given me, but I won?t change pe0ple. You?ve got to change the
peOple.

Boy: Going along with what you?re saying to (Alan and I don?t think we?re
here to?I don?t think our point is to make you become the activist. We?re not lawyers,
your not a court, and I don?t think that?s our goal.

Dolanfeel like I am.

Boy: I don?t know why. I think being in the position you are in, like Alana was saying, I
feel?and I can?t imagine what you do and the many reSponsibilities that you have in
your job?from my perspective I ?nd it hard to believe that someone with the marketing
power that you have. With the political pull that you do have in the Cleveland area, that
you could not pull this off if you made that personal decision. You were mentioning the
decision to change the Arrows. I feel I?m getting?-you were saying there was someone
who came with facts and details, who helped him to convince him to make that decision.

Dolan: 1 don?t know that.

Boy: Right, yet you?re making the argument that it?s not about the person making the
personal decision, it?s about changing the masses. My perspective on that is, you are in a
position of power and the way our system works is you as a person in power, tells the
masses what is popular. I think there has to be a 

Dolan: That?s a bigger issue that I don?t want to get into.
Boy: Is it? Ok.

Dolan: Whether I agree with what you just said. WhatI do know is the way to do things
is notjust to issue a decree but yanking Wahoo. I have a responsibility not only to your
views but how many thousands of others. I?ve got to explain that. I?ve got to explain that
in a way that is accurate and appealing. Whether it?s successful in changing their mind, I
mean, I care. They have to understand why I?m doing it.

Boy: Right. It seems to me with the incredible marketing team you must have in order to
keep up things that you do, I don?t see how it can be difficult in relation to a lot of other
things that are going on.

Dolan: I speak of money as an issue, and it is. But that?s not going to stop us from doing
this if it needs to be done. We would have problems over two or three years. We look at it
over 30 or 40 years. We could make the argument it would be the smart thing to do. You
go to Jacobs Field and look around. . .how many more jackets can you sell? Everybody
has them. If you?re going to pay $300 for a jacket with Wahoo on it, you?re not going to
buy another one. So maybe we ought to get a jacket with somebody else?s symbol on it.

Dolan: That?s an economic decision. That?s not what you?re talking about here. If it?s the
right thing to do money is not going to stop us from doing it. If we do it right, we?ll make
more money.

YB: Mr. Dolan has some items on his list he wants to go over. Then we can stop it there
and we can stop thinking about other concrete plans and future plans with Mr. Dolan if

that?s okay?

Alan: My comments go back from a while ago, but I started thinking about the idea of
honoring Native Americans and what it would mean to me for, a non-Native person in
this country, to honor Native Americans. I think the most effective way I could honor
Native Americans would be to actively create a Space for them to honor themselves. In
terms of what kind of symbols we put out there, I think it?s really crucial our schools and
our sports teams not be spaces where we?re trying to honor a group that we don?t know
enough about. We don?t. We aren?t taught about it. We don?t know how to adequately
honor the people in Native communities because we don?t have the information. In terms
of what symbols or whether we could ever devise a symbol that would be a better symbol
or honor in a more whole way, Native communities, let?s not try and do that. Let?s have a
Sports symbol in Cleveland that honors Cleveland. I was thinking about what you were
saying in terms of what kind of changes could happen and under what conditions the
mascot could be changed. You were saying you felt like in a sense all of Cleveland would
really need to understand why it was so important to change. I think I would love all of
Cleveland to understand that. I don?t think America is ready to understand. I don?t think
that?s how it actually works. I think the way great changes happen is by small numbers of
people pushing them forward and making courageous decisions, people in positions of
power and people in positions that aren?t so powerful and people in the middle saying we
think this needs to change. We?re going to change it and other people will understand it
in time. I think that?s how the Civil Rights movement happened and I think that?s how?l
feel I?m in college now just now there are issues were brought up then that unmasked
American 5 are only starting to understand now. Maybe it is the right thing to do, to
change the mascot without all of Cleveland knowing and not to do it in a way that we?re
taking their mascot away from them. What if we could have a mascot that every person in
Cleveland could, if they wanted to, support and be excited about? What if Native
Americans in Cleveland could be excited about their mascot? All of them-- Why not
have, right now there?s a huge patriotic movement in this country. Why not pick a time
like now or some other incident that happens to say we want a change to re?ect what our
city is now. What our city is now, I can?t think of a slogan, but what our city is now has
something to do with this new feeling of American patriotism. So it doesn?t even have to
be conceived of as a loss, that it?s about a larger identity that all Clevelanders can have
together. That was another thought I was thinking about and wondering if you felt it
would be helpful for us to send you some of the websites we know about?

Dolan: Anything you want to send me, please do. If we were an advertising ?rm and this
was a marketing meeting and that suggestion came up, you would be named head of the
committee, to come up with the symbol you were speaking about.

Amber: I want to touch on a few light issues. One of the things we?re talking about is
why there hasn?t been a movement yet. We?ve had the Civil Rights movement; this
wasn?t a part of it. Why hasn?t this been changed yet? We?re in modern times, we pretty
much know what racism is and if this hasn?t been changed then this must not be racism.

I want to keep you apprised of how recent this issue is. During the Clinton
administration, the petition was passed that American Indians are now ?nally allowed to
practice their religion in this land that was based on freedom and freedom of religion, it
has been illegal until 5 years ago maybe, during the Clinton administration, before that it
was illegal for us to practice our sweats and our Sundance. Not that we didn?t do it, or we
got chastised for it, but it was on the books as being illegal.

Dolan: Was this some law passed back in 1882 that sits there?

Girl: It was passed in this century close to the turn of the century, 1920?s or so.
Dolan: Was anyone ever prosecuted under it?

Girl: Yes. Many people.

Dolan: Is that right? That?s incredible.

Amber: More recently people hadn?t been prosecuted but it was still on the books. Finally
we are allowed to practice our religion and have the Native American church, legally.
Along the religious line, I?d like to reiterate that probably one of the most offensive
features of Wahoo is the red feather because it is religious icon it?s supposed to be an
eagle feather and like I say, if there was a team that was parading around with the star of
David or a cruci?x, that it wanted to be accepted. Just because it?s a religion that not
many people understand doesn?t mean it isn?t there. Allison had some interesting
insights about it with her being Catholic.

Girl: I do think it concerns me that, when you say you realize this is some pe0ple?s issue
and you don?t feel that. Certainly there are things that are like that for me. But I do feel,
as a Catholic and a Black person, as a Catholic in particular, I can understand this feeling
and a kind of feeling of shame and confusion and keeping what is yours when you see
something that is sacred to you commercially marketed, made fun of and ridiculed.
There are numerous examples. There?s the dancing nun you can put on your dashboard,
there?s Mary that you can wear as a trendy fashion at Gadzooks, there are lots of comedy
sketches about priests and their sexual relations. These are all things that make me feel
really uncomfortable. I was also having a time where I was looking for my faith, mostly
in the south, which is mostly Protestant, and the Catholic community isn?t as large as it
would be in other places. I recognized that it?s a lot larger than indigenous cultures.

It really did do a lot of things to my faith because most of my friends were not Catholic.
I?ve said Catholic jokes and make fun of my own religion in ways that really make me
embarrassed to say. Things that I would never tell my parents and I would have a hard
time explaining to my dad about why I made ajoke about a priest that way. At the same
time, how do I defend that? It does mess with my faith. Faith is something you have to

-even though I know you can be born Catholic and your parent?s can make you that but
it?s something you actually have to deal with on your own and you can choose to put it
down there. I think it only complicates things more when it?s not your faith and your
talking about your race and your culture. Certainly, if we were go talk more about Sambo
and Aunt Jemima, I can?t run away from that. I can?t pretend let me make my racist joke.
It won?t work. I have a lot of feelings about it because it?s something I?m still dealing
with, yet I also know even as sparse as that community may be, there are places
everywhere that I can go. Even here, I can go on campus and I can go down the road to a
Catholic community where I am around peOple who feel this is holy and sacred, and they
hold that up. At the same time that structure and foundation is not the same way in
indigenous cultures. If you are in Ohio and everyone has been evacuated and moved out,
you can?t say, Oh look right over here, so maybe this is harmful to me, and maybe I
don?t know how to address that feeling but you turn around and there?s nothing there to
help you. I feel all those things complicate it even more. Take it to a level that I don?t
even know that I can understand, but I can?t understand it in the way of having something
sacred and having it commercialized.

Dolan: First of all, is the feather color red a problem?
Girl: The feather itself.
Dolan: The color is not precarious, just the single feather?

Girl: The red is material but I feel like you?re saying let?s change the color? But I think
it's still.

Girl: You?re given an eagle feather when you reach certain points in your life. Maybe
when you graduate form high school. It?s an honoring thing. It?s meaningful in the
indigenous culture.

Dolan: You said it was religious. At least I understood you to say that.
Girl: Well, the red feather is religious.

Dolan: For clari?cation for my own mind, we?ve been concentrating today pretty much
on Wahoo. The other session we had, you want the Indians name removed too. You
spoke of the ?gure in the sand the child would think that?s what Indians look like.

It seems to me, if we took the direction you?re headed towards, the logical, ultimate result
would be that all messages of Indian culture that reside in baseball or sports teams would
be removed, gone. That reminds me of somewhere, whether it was here or someplace
else, or both, the Indians as a community, quote, ?Do not wish to be assimilated into the
culture of this country.? They want to keep their own. Were do non-Native Americans, if
every sports team didn?t have a symbol of any kind, what?s left for non-Native
Americans to have this imagery of Native Americans?

Girl: I think because Native Americans are starting to get back in to having control over
images, it would be ourjob to form those images. These images that have existed for ?fty
years, are images of the past, images of the different time and we?re moving into a new
era where it?s starting to be our responsibility instead of imposing on us to de?ne our
image within the greater culture.

Girl: That would be a wonderful opportunity and I would be so excited. Some people
Even in the face of all the mascots are trying to joke about what Native pe0ple are like
today. Anna was telling me about a magazine ad that had, Richard West, who is the head
of the new Smithsonian Museum, of Native American history walking down the street in
Washington and wearing a suit and nice coat, underneath it said, ?this is a real Indian.?

I don?t know it could go in many different directions but I would be so excited for there

to be this tape)

Dolan: We?re back to the local issue. The Cleveland baseball team that had a Wahoo
substitute which was a digni?ed Indian ?gure, and who focused and concentrated on
Indian culture, maybe even had Indian museums, and educated people and members of
the ball team become interested in Indian culture, Indian background, and Indian history.
So they would understand what really happened to the Indians, and why their time and
decent and why they have drunkenness and suicide. The Indians take on a responsibility
of promoting the Whole spirit of which you want for Indians.

Girl: I think we could certainly look better and provide a lot more Opportunity for people.
I think one thing of this meeting that needs to be addressed is the idea of a mascot, and
what that means. I do think that would be a lot better than having some caricature of, but
it?s complicated now. It almost makes things seem more invisible because now it?s
educated and it?s there but at the same time, you?re still a mascot, you?re still this one
being a representative of everything. The idea of what a mascot can be, mascots are
animals in most other sports. That compares. You get to be an animal. By making it even
more educational which is great those educational things would be there but it would also
make it that much harder to see how dangerous is it that you?re still a mascot.

Dolan: Let?s get rid of the mascot for special purposes only. We have an that
becomes the Indians symbol. Let?s put prayers on the hat, the shirt, no more Wahoo, but
the Indian name remains because it?s been there for 100 years. It?s not an enemy it?s just
a name. We can now move it into something more positive. Promote Indian life with

Indian culture.

Girl: I think that might be detrimental because sports are about competitiveness and that
would leave the doors wide open to degrading us at a very personal level.

Girl: I was going to add on to Amber. As an athlete you know within the athletic arena
people usually say we?re going to go get them, it?s one of those controlfpower issues,
Field of battle, you?re out there, I?m going to beat you. . . personally beat you. That?s what
sports are all about. One of the few places in life you feel under control of the situation.

You fully feel like I?m going to win, I?m amazing, I?m going to beat you. If you have a
name like the Indians you can say things like I?m going to kill you, you Indians, I?m
going to kill you. As a person who is Indian, being on that team, you?re going to kill me?
You?re going to personally hurt my identity, my people, who I am?

Girl: There?s a line in my favorite poem, it says something like to worship us and then
degrade us is the same. It would be hard to keep in the spirit of actual Indian culture
because there is so much other sorts of outside force on that, in terms of new-agers and
what spirituality means, and to be one with the earth. I think it would be threatened by

that.

That?s a whole different issue of racism. That?s the opposite of the kind of racism that
we?re talking about with you. It?s also one that?s prominent in Native communities, and
other communities--Native communities, very dominantly.

Boy: One problem that comes up, when you do have a mascot that is based on a culture.
Personally, our mascot was the shocking warrior, so the way I approached the issue at my
school. I was on the newspaper staff so I wrote an opinion article in the newspaper and
that opened up discussion. When I would talk to pe0ple they would say, but the warrior is
a symbol of strength and honor and ?ghting and winning. We are the warriors, we are
strong, people will be afraid of us if we are the warriors. By having any symbol at all, one
image is placed on an entire culture. So generalizations are made on entire culture based
on one symbol that is created. I don?t know the four of you personally but if I were to
have that misconception that all Native Americans were warriors. You don?t seem so
reared up to kill, aggressive to attack. It?s a very large but very subtle problem that one
image is imposed upon an entire culture.

Girl: You?re talking about not having an image of a Native person and running with the
eye. My ?mdamental question is kind of basic. Why do we want to have a sports team
that?s called the Indians that are not the Indians? They are not Indians. It?s not even about
racism, why do that. It?s such a misnomer.

Girl: I think it it?s a history of people going into Indian communities and then trying to
take on that persona and identity, and saying now I?m Indian. I?ve nicked a thumb and
now I?m blood brother with this Indian so now I?m Apache. There?s a long history of
that. We have all kinds of movies about that. I don?t understand exactly why that takes
places specifically with the Native American community? That is a part of that history, I
think.

Girl: I guess I really believe if a change were to happen, the only way to have it really be
effective both from a standpoint of moving away from racist imagery and from a
standpoint of what will be effective and not make the Cleveland community backlash. I
think it has to be a complete change to something everybody can view as positive, as
their identity. I?m not sure just moving away from Wahoo and maintaining an is
going to have the affect you want in either direction.

Girl: I did want to echo that. I think it?s a question, and I appreciate that you?re
brainstorming other ways and other possibilities in which things could be better, but I do
have that underlying question, the why of why still hold on to the Indians. At the same
time, I understand you addressed this in the beginning, it?s not going to happen over night
and I don?t understand, but I?m trying to imagine the pressures you have around you and
the way things are going, that would be an enormous amount to ask of someone even if
you could do it. I appreciate that you?re thinking about other ways, but still with the
underlying question of why.

Dolan: Thank you.
Girl: We?re all trying to understand your part of this as well.

Girl: I wanted to change line of conversation. I do appreciate you making this suggestion.
In some ways, I think it would be helpful to have an education center or at least some
place that could bring this issue to the larger Cleveland community. Though it might be
dif?cult because the history is raw and it hasn?t really been dealt with on a larger level.

I think you would get a lot of feedback, both good and bad from doing something like
that. I want to ask you?because you do have the power to make a change?you do as
owner and as a leader in the community. If that change could be something positive, like
Ohio is the heart of America, is that the slogan? There is this huge wave of patriotism
going on. You could be the Cleveland heroes. I feel there?s such a way in which this can
be re-embodied to grasp Cleveland and Clevelanders, all races and ethnicities, as
Americans and as this great surge of patriotism for the country. I don?t think that would
be a really dif?cult stretch to do given the time period we?re in and given the sense of
America that is everywhere. I want to ask, because I feel these mascots and images and
idea of Indian people as being somebody else?s image, toy, is to me very obviously racist.
I wonder how can we help you, I?m asking for a commitment form you to tell us exactly
what you need to help make this a progressive conversation that takes place, that we can
erase these images and we can understand they fundamentally are racist. They?re based
on a racist history. They?re based on the continuation of that history. When I was talking
earlier about how quickly these seemingly harmless images become the representatives of
entire peeple, it becomes a violent response if you wanted to change that, a racist attack
on Indian people. How do we help you make that transition easier?

What kind of commitments can we get from you and do you need from us to help?

Dolan: I think I said that more than once. You want to change my mind. You?re reaching
to my mind, to in?uence my emotions, my passions, to do something different. If you
really want to help me do that you?ve got to reach out to the City of Cleveland and
change their minds, their passions, their views. I thought I saw that beginning to happen.
Then it stopped.

Girl: Can we get help from you in doing that? We are a very small people. There are
community organizations in Cleveland who are doing that. They?re going to schools
giving lectures.

Dolan: That?s not my passion. If you will, I?m the gold, and you?ve done a greatjob in
getting my attention. But to move it to where you want to go is going to take a lot longer.
I don?t want to suggest anything to the contrary. I can be done. You?re a little dif?cult
because your group is transitory in nature. You?re here a couple years and you?re gone
and it?s a bunch of other faces. It?s easy to put you off. It?s not a problem at all. Just be
nice, show up a couple times, pat you on the head and leave. You?ve got to broaden your
constituency. You?ve got to go ?nd out you don?t have one. If you?re right, this
should be done, it shouldn?t be necessary for me to do it alone. You should be able to go
out in the community and I should be bombarded by letters, editorials, commentaries,
homilies. This is fundamentally wrong. That?s the way to help me.

Girl: Has the packets of information that we?ve been given, because there are statements
and organizations and communities and people that are saying this is wrong. . .has that
made any dent?

Dolan: You?ve got the best voice that I?ve heard.

Girl: All of the circle battles the civil rights for various groups have not been won just by
these groups. There are people in power who say I understand your point of view.
Because we?re at Oberlin, one individual can change the world, that?s what we believe in.
Make that stance and break that trend. Stand as a revolutionary and visionary. Go beyond
a historical norm to something new as of one person, with our help, you are in a position
of power. This is your team.

Dolan: I don?t have your passion yet.

Girl: It seems pe0ple keep asking what is it we need to do? You?re saying we need more
evidence and you?ve said it before. I?m a little unsure both ways. For me, the question is,
I?m not exactly sure where you see that it?s not racist. Where is your stance?

Dolan: I know where you are. I disagree. I don?t believe it?s racist.

Girl: I feel like I?ve got that part. I?m asking why you don?t see it as racist.
I?m unclear. I don?t know if that?s a valid question to ask.

Dolan: I think I addressed it before. I?ve said something is racist, you know it? racist.

You are raising the conscious level as a possibility this could be racist. The great majority
of people, many of whom I know and respect, don?t see it that way at all. They don?t feel
it that way. They don?t intend it that way. These peOple would never think of addressing
an African American with the word or anything of that nature. They would be
outraged by that. They don?t see that as it relates to this issue. I don?t see it either.

Boy: It seems to me that you?re looking for a popular movement. Am I correct in that?

Dolan: I would like you to raise the level of concern beyond this room.

Boy: You don?t see a large visible, popular stance on our issue.

Dolan: Outside of this room? Outside, I do not. A passion is a feeling of. . .it?s a problem
to me. The more I?m exposed to your thinking the more impressed I am. I could be wrong
on where I?ve been. I?m the same guide who went to South Carolina to a Marine Corp.
camp at Paris Island for six weeks in the summer of 1951 and I saw all the Jim Crow
signs, colored only, While only, all those things. I thought that was interesting. I have no
feeling. I took no responsibility. I saw nothing. Ijust didn?t have a feeling about it. I?m
amazed at that when I look back.

Girl: Last time you mentioned if you had been owner of the Washington Redskins you
would have changed the name because you thought that was racist. I?d like to know why

you think that is racist.

Dolan: I wouldn?t accept a white-skin or brown-skin name. Those are the two popular
races. The red skins are not very many folks, but it?s the same thing. I have no trouble.
I?m amazed that it continues. I don?t know what happened to the federal action.

Girl: It?s in appeal.
Dolan: It?s been a long time. That?s absolutely folly that name should remain.

Girl: And it?sjust the name itself?

Dolan: Yes. Just out of curiosity, and I hope this isn?t? too light-hearted for the end, but
One of the problems baseball has is we?re trying to contract teams. We have too many
teams, all kinds of economic problems associated with that. The alternative to that is to
relocate teams. If you relocate teams you may just take a problem to someplace else.

But there is one group who really wants a team, that?s in Washington. What?s their name
going to be? The Washington Senators. They all want to be named after a baseball team.
I don?t know whether that?s any application to that

Girl: You wanted to see outside this room. We created a Native American history month
table in the library, put a bunch of books on it, art pieces. We also put a petition on the
table that is about changing the Wahoo mascot. There were 333 students who signed the
petition to abolish Chief Wahoo. So we have been doing work in the Oberlin community.
I honestly don?t? think some of these people are because we have tried to change
anybody?s mind. I think these pe0ple have already felt this way when they signed this
petition. We really didn?t do any canvassing or explaining. So we wanted to present this
petition to you.

Dolan: I?d be happy to accept it, but may I make an observation? I became a trustee at
Oberlin College, and when pe0ple ask me why, I?m fairly conservative in almost
everything in my lifestyle. But Oberlin was so attractive to me because they seemed to be
on the cutting edge of everything that was new, good or bad. That?s a negative for you
folks. That?s a reputation you have. Oberlin is a hot bed for every controversy and they

Parade and demonstrate for everything. Oberlin College students should not be the leader
to remove Wahoo. Your credibility is too largely in context. 332 signatures out of
Oberlin, nobody pays any attention to that. Take those students that owe signatures, to
some church, or some columnist. You need visibility. You need to get it out of this
campus. This campus is not going to sell anything to the greater Cleveland community at
this time, in my judgment. If you want to help me get where you?re going to go, you?ve
got to put more pressure on me from groups other than Oberlin campus.

Girl: May I explain why we only circulated it within the Oberlin campus. 1) Because
you?re a trustee we wanted to let you know what some of the student?s opinions were.
This is about 10% of the student population. 2) We?ve been very much encouraged by the
administration to keep it in house and not talk about it with anybody else.

Dolan: I can?t get into that. You?re asking me. I?m telling you what I think. One of the
?rst things you did, as far as I knew, you tried to get rid of me. That?s the last thing that
should be done. I?m the best instrument you?ve got right now. Why are you trying to get
rid of somebody who has potential power? But that was your mind set, get rid of him.
That?s not going to get anything done. You?ve got to be positive about what you?ve done.
You?ve got the passion. You?ve got the issue. You feel it. You?ve got to transmit that to
the people who can do something about it. You?re at a good start with me. I have a
different mindset than I had a year ago. But it won?t happen over night. I?m sorry that
you?re going to graduate. You?re probably not. You?ve got leadership here that exists that
will be here on a constant basis. They need the staff. You?ve got to make alliances with
newspapers and churches. They?re out there. There just on the edge, I think, frankly.

YB: Thank you so much. I hope you can come back together for a social someday. From
last year, today is a huge difference. And I hOpe we can have this type or relationship and
even better relationship for Oberlin with Mr. Dolan.

Dolan: If you said I?d have the last word, I?ll take the last word. I don?t take my Indians
hat off and put my Oberlin College Trustee hat on. I?m as proud as punch of you guys.
You care, and when you want to do something about it. All I want to do is tell you ok, be
practical. See where the goal is. How are you going to get there? If you can?t get there on
your own make sure you have continuity about getting it done. Your goal is 
You have the belief. Stay with it.