Case. 3.89- -cr- -00720 JZ D0c#: 494 Filed: 02/19/91 10f 170 Page D#: 12204 1 111111 111111 1111111111 2 11111111 11111111 11 1111 Pa? 111 3 1111111 11111111 ?33?r:1 :9 11:0;51 1. ME: 111111 111111 11 11111119 1 5 3 ?if Hun ?lainti??p 6 3 v; 3 Criminal Actian 7 3 111 61391721 111111 11111 111, a 1 1111 11 11111; 1 3011 111 10111, 3 1 aefan?ant1, 10 11 12 1 11111111111 111 111011 111 13 V1 101011111?3111.11 101111, 111 1 11 1111, 1011110111 11 11:12 1.1..F 15 111111, 11111111 15, 1111a 11 .11 SEP 11 199?; 11 101111 1 1 .. .. EON-ART) 1311515113, 61111 20 21 91m3608/09/10 22 23 21 15 11111111 1. 1110111, 111m11 1% (315357510112 . Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 2 of 170. PageID 12205 1398 1 APEEARANGES: 2 ?ar ?ameg Wealey Graig Morfar? 3 Dayaztment of Ju?tiee Organize? Crime Stiika Farce ?iviaian 4 Ea?t Ninth Skraa?y Suite 809 Clavelan?, Ohia 44114 5 Far Defen?ant William Kun?tler; Esq. 5 Steven Wayne Yea: Ranal? Ruby, E??a 13 Gay atreeta Esqa 7 New 203k, mew Yark and 8 K. Ranal? Bailey; Esq. Pu?? Bax 833 9 2531 Solumbus Avenue Sanduaky, Shin 4%970 10 9 Per the Befam?aut Ralyh Buggy Egg. 11 Mark S. V?rdis Matthew F. Ean??karg Paralegal 111 East ?treet 12 9.9. Box 705 Painasvilla, Shin @4077 13 For tha Befen?ant merry Ha Gilbert; Egg. 1% Ru Ea?da: Stan?ar? Buil?ing Slavelan?, Ohio ?1113m9201 15 Court Rapartare: Francine Ca Salagekw 16 R686 Cannon Unite? Stataa Digtrick Caurt 1? 261 Supazimr Avanue, Room Gl?valand, Ohio ??ll?alzal 19 (216)57?w?llg SRLOPEK, (215)57?w?ll? Case: DOC #1 494 Filed: 02/19/91 3 Of 170. PagelD 12206 1? 1 ?g 1 FEBRUARY 15, Eggs, 10:63 gum. 2 THE Ba saatad? plea?au 3 1 think aha raawzd aan rafiect wa hava the Entire 4 panel hera an& I cammand you far getting hera on this 5 particular ?aya And I will tall ?ha alerk mat to ?ack 6 anyane?g far Starting an hams late? 7 Gkay. Finew Dc yam want to call ymur next witne$3? a MORFQRE: Ya?, ymur Hunsr. We cal: ax. Randy King. 10 1 ll 315363; 114.10.. 12 0f lawful agep calla? as a witneaa by 13 tha Gavarnmant, after having been firat 14 ?uly awarn, was axamina? an? teatified 15 as fallaws: 16 DIRECT EKAMIMWEOEJ 18 BY MR. 19 Gom? warning? 39 A, marning? 21 Q. maula you please stata and ayall yaur last mama ?or 22 the caurt re?arter. 33 Certainly. I??s Randail King; Ewiw?w?u 2% Q. And aaula you tell u& what yen ?6 a living? 25 Certainly. I?m an ametgency ghyaician gracticing gut G. gamma, (315)575~0112 - Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 4 of 170. PageID 12207 King Eirect 1406 1 6f th& emerganay departm?nt at Saint Vincent Madical Center 2 hate in Tolada, Ghiaa 3 Qw 39 yau?za an Mani? 4 @hat'a a?rreata 5 Q. And caul? yam tell ?e haw lung gmu have baan empluya? 6 as an emerg?ncy Imam physieian at Sagnt Vincent ?ospital? have baa? working ag part 0% th@ teaching faculty in 8 the emergency ?eyartmant at Saint Vinaant sinca abaut 9 1934? I hava baan actually in an? Gut 0f that bagpital as 10 part af my txainimg aimca ab?ut 19?8. 11 Q. Ra? what ara yawn-?aywtow?ay dutiws just generally? 12 A. A3 far a5 tha'emargency ?epartmant is concexne?y I 13 gravi?e madiaal dare in the emargenay ?epartment. I 14 guyarvise the an? the medical care givan by 15 phygi?ians in hraining in emerganuy ma?icine in th? 16 emergancy ?epartment at Saint Vinsent. x?m @130 the l? aagaciate ?iractar far the degartment at Saint I hava 18 administrative ag well as medical duties with th? Lifa 19 Flight serviae amt m? th? hespital. 29 Q. Were yam an ?uty at Saint Vincan? hospital an 21 April 23g 1938? 22 9? Yes? 1 wasu 23 39 yam reaall parfarming a phy?ical anamimatimn 0f E4 Jana Ray Bmm?a at the request 9% the 25 Ag Yea; I d0? FRANCXEQE C. (El?)575?0112 Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 5 of 170. PageID 12208 King mirect 1491 1 ?aw, can yam tall as what yam recall Eegar?ing the 2 purposa cf that physical examina?ian? 3 Actually very littla. The agen?s Gama ?n with :13: My. Bands and agked me to parfarm a haad~ta~t$a avaluatien, an? garticularly ma?a any injuries at lasians or eviaenae 6 9f waun?a an? that wag really about itg They tal? ma vary 7 littla beyona thatu 8 Q. 319 you tharmughly wxamine a1l signs mf injuzy an all 9 regiona of his bady? 13 Ag Y??g I did. ll Q. Wara yam asked in particular t6 luck at any ayemific l? guttian Of big ba?y? 413 Na, I was net. 1% Qo NOW, han?ing-yau what hag been marked an? a?mitta? as 15 vaexnment?s Exhibit 27; amul? yam take a 103k at that, 16 plaasaa am& can ymu tall as what it i3; what that?s a 17 gicture af? 18 A. @hat 13 a gicture that was taken 9f Mr. Ban?s? Eight 19 arm during the examination that I pariarma? that ?ay. 30 Okay. if yam caul? hal? that my 80 the jury cauld $99 21 it. 22 Wh&t portion 3E the arm 19 that, what'3 tha actual 33 name af thaa part of tha arm? 24 A. it?s the ?ursal aspemt 9f the right farearm a: aha 25 pogtarimr aapect af the right feraarm back of the elbawn FRANCZWE C. (215)575~3112 wvw? Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 6 of 170. PageID 12209 King Direct 1%02 1 Esseatiaily, it?s hhi? area righ? back in here 3 (indicating)* 3 $33 SGURT: Sm I uu?eratan? that, that?$ tha baak 0f tha elbaw? 5 TEE WITNESS: Exactly. 5 BY MR, 7 Q. Just balow the elbew; garrect? 8 A. Yas. Thia area essentially ww and I will use my right 9 arm ainae thia is a picture mf the right arm. Itv? thi? 10 area right in harag If thig was the elbmw aha hanging my 11 arm downward; as this pictura shows, it woul? $how this 12 araa right in here {indicati?g). 13 mnea tha picture of the arm fairly and aacurately 14 ?eyiat the way the arm laakaa an Ayril 23, 19833 when yau 15 amn?ucta? th? physical agaminatien a? Mz? Ban?a? 1% Yes, it daes? It?a cansistant with my mammry an? with l? tha infarmatimn ?acumented an the chart. 18 Q. ?kay. Now, turning yam: to the scar Which 19 aypears to the left ?f the tattaa. di? yam examine that 39 partiaular snag on April 29, 1983? 21 Yea; I ai?. 22 Q. can yum degcribe tha scar the way it hapyene? when 33 yaw examine? Jenn Ray on April 28; 1988? 2% A. Certainly. It was ?ascribe? actually in my dictatian 25 39 a anewandvamhalf ceatimeter scary anavan?wawhalf Q. {2153575~8112 Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 7 of 170. PageID 12210 King Biract 1983 1 centimat?r? in that appears t0 have yanatrated 2 deaper than tha augarficial Qart 0f the akin fenestrat?y 3 intc tha Gaaper tissuaag th& fatty tissuea belaw that? 5 And it agpeare? ta ha relatively recent. 1 had place? 5 anywhere Exam ta threw waaks nut t0 abaut three to four 6 mantha a3 t0 tha time that the injury probably accutred. 7 Qa Gkay. An? what 13 it specifically abaut the way ?hat 3 'wuuna apy?ared that anable? yum to make that ?etermina?ian? 9 Okay. IE yen imak at this woun?, yau can gee that it 18 is abuut onewandwawhalf centimeters in length? It i3 atill 11 much redder.than the 3K tha skin aurromn?ing it that 12 hag mat haen injurea. The aurfaca ia samewhat naugh. 3a 13. that it basimally was suggested as atill relativaly 1% recant. 15 ha a Scar matures; as the healing yracass gaes an, 16 that gear wiile with time, flatten gut, it will $mnath uuty 1? and it will b?cema muah reda The re?nem$ ten?s t0 18 fade aver a Qaria? 9f weeka to aaveral manthag again, as 19 that gear maturasa A scax whiah i9 anywhera Exam $13 20 mantha ta a year a: al?er tends ta l??k much like the 21 surrounding akin? It 13 exactly lika it; it 19 pala, it 13 23 $maath, it is ant thi? rad? 23 What abaut that gear is it that lad yam ta beliava it 2% wa$n?t just a week or twe aid? 25 a. if you hava a wanna that'g abcut a week at 91d; it FRAHCINE C. (21635?5~8112 mw? Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 8 of 170. PageID 12211 Ring Dizect wauld lack like a Erash wanna. Lek me kim? of put thia an 2 a time frama. If you sastain a cut, gay, aaday, the 3 initiai ?ppeaxance 0f that is you get a cut# it?s open; it?s hi?$?ingy and yaw gat axgaae? tiague that yen can 5 56a. Swmetimes if it?s Gem? enoughthis tigsue belmw aha Skin? 7 Th@ naxt thing that happenay?ywu get a ?cah that 8 farms. Ra? that gaab tenda to laat anywhere fram a waek, 9 waek~an?~a~hal?g Out ta abaut three 0r faur W99k$a That?5 10 bean rmplace? ever that peric? 0E time with the farming ll scar tissue 0r call?geng if yam will? 12 Thi$ is an ?xample 0f what it ten?g t0 imak like when 13 yam gat three t0 fmur out to a couyla 9f manths out. 14 tYau gat a scar, but it?s a new;$carg 8a it 13 very, very 15 tea 0: hyparemiav it 13 waxy; vexy taugh; an? it ?uegu?t 19 100% like the surzaan?ing tissue? 1? Tha next phase Eat it :3 far t?is tn maturag it 13 3mmath$ autg fa?eg ?ute an? bland? in with the aurrmunding 19 akinm 29 Q. in yaur ayinimm, based an yea; exgeriance with thn?e? 21 with saar an? waun?gg on ynur axaminatiwn 22 af Gahn Ban?s an Agril 28, 1983; is that away comaistant 23 with or incanaistent with the pcagibility ?hat Saba Bon?s 24 sustaigad that waua? an F?bruary 27p 1988? 29 1. It?s canaiatent with that. C. (215)575w9112 King Birect 1195 1 Q. and wam that ymur ayiniun an April 28th, 1938, when 2 you made that axaminatian? 3 A1 Yes, it was. 4 ?g Coul? yam tall ua what, if anything, you ha? h?en ?016 5 ragarding th? inveatigatimn mf Mr. at the tima a that yuu arriva? at tha mpinian with regas? t9 tha age 9f that waund an Ayril 28, 198%? A. Virtually Hana. I was nut aware GE tha natare 3f the, 9 saga at all. 10 Q. Had yam been bald anything abmut Elmo? ?rippings in a 11 van or any garalagy testa, EMA ta?tsp anything 11km that? 12 1 we. 13 Q. Had yam been t?ld that the incident that they were 14 investigating ha?p?in fact, macurre? an February 27; 1988? 15 a. Na. 16 Q. Ha? yam been ?eld anything with raapact ta the timing 1? Of that at any wcund Had you been askad km gyecifically focus y?ur 23 attantian an that garticular wuund? 2% Au Ho. 35 Q1 Were there ather wuun?a that you @130 loake? at an? FRANCIRE C. SALSPEK, (2153575w6113 m~m Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 9 of 170. PageID 12212 WVW?erw MW Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 10 of 170. PagelD 12213 King ?iract 143% 1 attampta? ta ?ata? 2 Au. Yeah The actual ?ictatian which I did an thia wag a 3 littla aver ?agas lang aha li$t?? wounaa an the hmadp #35 chast; virtually all aver. ?u 80 that wag just one 9% many wannas that yaw luaked at 6 an& gava yam: npinian abaut? A: That?g carrect. 8 Q. in yaur bpiniana ceald this wanna hava been cauae? by 9 a bullet fragment atriking Mr. Ban?s? farearm or ?arsal 10 area? 11 A, Yasg it caul?. 12 Q. Cmul? it have Ewan gauged by samathing else athex than 13 that as well? 14 Yes, it aaula. 15 Q1 Can yam detarmine just by iaaking at that wanna the 15 exact Gauge 9f that injury? 1? Ag No, 1 cannuta 18 Q. Can you Say with a reasonabla degree ?f medical 19 cartainty whether Mr; Bandg would have hia? at the tim& 29 that he zacaiva? that waund? 21 Yes, he wauld hava bied Exam that waun?a 22 MR. Nuthing Eurtherg yaur Hanar. 23 a 24 2?3 FRANCINB C. SALGPEK, (3153575w0113 . o. . 1.). DOC #1 494 Filed: 02/19/91 11 Of 170. PagelD 12214 H?t 146? CROSS BY a 3 9? Sand warning; Bra King. My name is Tarry Gilbert. 4 A. Gaa? warning? 5 I repregent Mr. Ban?a. We?va had am Qp?urtunity ta 6 talk ab?ut thi?g have ME net? 7 Yes; we hava? 8 Q. Howg you are mat a Egrensic phygician, ara yam? 9 A. No, nut? 18 Q. Have yam evet been in any forensic amalyais 11 ?f wann?s, the nahure ?f th& waunds an? th? anurc& an? haw 12 they caul? hava acaurr@?? 13 A. onvisionallyy 14 Q. All right. You've never warkad fax a caroner?a affine 15 hefax?, have yam? 16 A. 2550 r. 17 Q. Have yam evar testified in Cuuyt befara ragar?ing the 18 natur@ af wannag and haw they accur? 19 A. Yea; I have* 2Q ?ow; is this Samathingg as far as having someba?y 21 braught in by goliae 0r govarnment law enf?zcememt agents; 22 is this asmathing unuaual that yam 69 a: is thia the firat 23 time it?s avar hapgenea? 24 It's nah unugual. Actually, as wart mi tha a dawntawn 23 emergency departmant, we gat a fair number af peaple FRAHCEME C. Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 12 of 170. PageID 12215 1466 bruught in by the lacai yalice departman? on a ragular 2 basis an? wa are aake? ta dncument injuzies an them on 3 ocaasiony aa W911 $3 treating thage injaries. Little 4 unusual for tha FEE ta a?me in. I cannat zemember a 5 gravioua acaurxence similar to this. a Q. Have ynu bean aske? tap after mantha or great length 7 0f time, ta determine haw 016 m? injury 13* la that a smmething that yen narmally d0? 9 I have been asked ahat aefareg yea. 18 Q. Now, Mr. asked yam if yam tamember what 11 instractiana were given ta yau as far as what y?u were ta 12 .lomk at. $0 yam remember his quwatianing about that? 13 an Egg, I do. 1% And I think yan-in?iaahed that ynu were ta ?3 a 15 haadmtawtoe exami?atien? 16 A. what39 cerraatt 17 Qa And an yam ramember who was greseat at the emaxgency 18 at ?aint Vincana'? Wham yam were calied ugan to an the 19 examina?iun? 29 9. Nat with graat ?atailk Theta ware mevaral yaogle whe 21 I assumed were FBI aganksy ona a: two 9% tham who 22 i?entifie? them a& such. These was al?n somecne who 23 appaara? t0 be a palice a?ficer mi EGME kind. That?s about 3% the best that I have recall on that? 23 yen racall whather at mat any mf thesa agan?a FRANCINE Cu (215)575m0112 Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 13 of 170. PageID 12216 1&8? in?iaate? ta yam a yarti?ular araa of tha ba?y that hh?y 2 .wante? ymu ta 190k at? 3 9* Eat ta the be$t 9f my In my ?ictation, 4 thera waa a camment an facusing an the txunk area, but I 5 have @ersonal racalleatiea 95 that ather than tha 6 ?aat it?$ part GE my ?ictatiana 7 Q1 53 yea have parmcnal ?w ?g you have re?oll?ction G5 a any inatructians t?at these agents might have given yam 9 that ?articu1ar ?ay? 10 A. The mnly gart that I actually have racollectimn mf was 11 ?ne af the agenta saying ta me, again, that ?e wante? he 13 190k hea? amd toe and hate any injuries that I haa 13 seen. And hhatig the one part da have persenal 14 'recmllectimn mf out?ide the chart? 15 GILBERT: ?ay I hava this matkad? 15 - It leuka like ?ouhle $1 17 ng WOOLEY: Fina? 18 GILBERT: 19 Ge DKQ King, I?m gnawing yam what has been marke? as 29 Defen?amts' Exhibit 33. Is thah ?hm report that yam 21 preware? in connaction with the axaminatian 9f John Ban?s 22 on Agril 28th, 1988? .23 A. Yes, it is. 2% Q1 And can yam tell ua Wham yau prayare? that regart 25 subsequemt ta yaur examinaticn? FRAECENE (215}E7?m?ll? .. Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 14 of 170. PageID 12217 1419 4. This teyort was @iut?tad by ma appraximately ten tn 15 2 minutes after the axamination an Mr. 3 85 waul? you agraa that the infarmation in that regart 4 is much mara ?resh a3 far a@ racullactiwn than anythiag {It that yam aeul? say in caurt today? A. 61 Q. And by th& way, it in?ieate theta in th@ tap, 8 in tha ?irst paragrayhg that the FBI want?d a garticular 9 emphasia in the trunk area? 10 A. gas, it $693 in?ica?e that. 11 Q. Ana wauld yam raly an that.report ta in?icahe that you 12 were giV@n mare speaific i?atructions as tn the area of the 13 bm?y to la?k at than general? 14 Yes. 15 Q4 56 you waren't juat tol?y cheak this man ?utg leak at 16 hia whula bu?y, an? ?atwrmina what woun?s at what injurias 17 there may be; yam ware aciually ?eld an fucus on a 13 particulat area: isn?t that warrect? 19 yes. Althaugh beliave it 3139 atates in there that 29 waa asked ta 105k fzam hea? ta tma. waul? have leak 21 back at thata 32 Right; I un?ezstan? thate bat there was alaw a 23 particular am?hasi$ an the trunk area? 24 Yea, that?s corractw 25 Qg thi$ particular wanna ahat yum laaka? at an the C. (31335?5?0112 1&11 1 right ?araalg right faraarm and ?orsal agpact 0f the right 3d {?rearm i$ gammanly referra? ta aa a lacaratiang is it nah? 3 %n Correct; a laCQE&ti?? ?r cut. 22:. Q. And a laseration is quita cammnn in yaur experiemca am far as emergency r?am injurias? An Yas, it 13? Ana Mr. Wealay a?ke? yam whether ax mat this weun? was 3 aonsigtent with a bullat Eragmemt wanna. Ramambar he agke? 9 ymu that? I?m 1 mean Mr. Marfagd, ExcuAnd thare is no exit waund ahara; is theta? 12 An Hat that I can tell, n0. 13 Q. All right? Theta was an bane_aamage, was theta? 14 a? (No raspan3a.) 15 Q. Caul? ymu t?ll i? thara was any han? ?amaga? 16 whara that witheut ?ning an 17 ray? 18 A laaeratian gammanly involveg sa?e ?anatratimn of the 19 5kin; is it nut? 28 A. That?s warrant? 21 Q. And this weund man be aansis?ant with any kind af cut 22 ax lacaxatian cause? by an unlimite? amaunt 0f causas, 23 caula it mat? 24 A. ?aide from the yhrase "nnlimite?,? there are many 25 thingg that can caa?e a cut like this. C. (215)57?u?l12 Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 16 of 170. PageID 12219 1412 1 Caul? it be nausea a cut a 9mm, Ear examyle? 2 an Yea, it aauldg in} Q. Maw, yam talke? abaut aha aga nf thia wanna. Thig is a?thing mmra than a gnoce?s 0f swma kin? cf braa? perimater 5 $?aculatian that you aagage in ta ?etermine when that 5 injury amul? hava acaurred, is it n3t? 7 A. That?$ currect. I Gamma: time this ta the haur, 8 mimuta, aecand. 9 Okaya 19 The healing pxaceasas avg: a fairly braa? parim? 0f 11 time a3 mentiane? in the three week t9 three to fun: manth 12 time frame. 13 And when yam ara aske? whether a: mat it waa 14 ?cenaigtent with an injury that caul? have aacurred an 15 Febzuary 27th? 1988; you can?t be aura ahaut that, can yam? 16 M90 17 Q. All right. It cauld hava happwne? samatima in early 13 Ayril a5 fat as yam Kuow? 19 Agril of what mm 20 whi? was Aptil 28thg 1988, that you ?ia yaux 21 examinatian; right? 22 A. That?$ merract. 23 Q. This caul? have hayyanad as tenant as aarly April, 24 caul? it mat have? 3% a? It woul? have been mw yeah. It squid fall intc the C. RPRUCM Wm-Wm .W ?m 1413 1 very beginning part 9f Ayrilp pra?ably mat later than th? 2 very beginning yart, ?ixst or day w? April, 3 Q. it caul? hava hap?ane? amy time in March: righ?? 4 A. That?s detract. Anywhara Exam that threw week ta 5 thrae ta f??i manth @erie?a 6 it caul? hava hagpaned in Fehruary, it caul? have 7 happaned in January, maybm even in Decamber GE ?87; is that 8 right? 9 what?s cerrecta 13 the faat 0f the mattex is, six, wmuld yam agzee 11 with me, the healing pracegg that ?ne in?ividual may have 12- ?iffers-frnm wag indivi?ual t0 anather? My healing prmceas 13 aan be dif?arent fx?m yaurs and View veraa? 1% A. That 13 contest. Within parimetera; there is a 15 ?iffaramce w?thin haaling pracesg. 16 Q. &n6 the changes in scar tisaue oz scabs and 17 pigmentatimn an? that kind mi thing varies fram mne ?8 in?ivi?ual to anatherg ?ees it mat? 19 That?s curractw 20 Q. ?ew; the questian 3f blaading gram such a weund ag yau 21 hava leukad at here; you canno? tell, can yam; $13, the 22 amaunk 9f blee?i?g that wuuld hava ra3u1t&d at the tim@ 23 that waund was sustaine?? 2% A. Na; 1 cannot estimate the amaunt. 25 h? And if Qua was waaring an outer garmant 3r 5 caat of FRENQEWE 12133?wa (2153575~0112 Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 18 of 170. Page D#: 12221 1414 1 same kind er a jacket, ywu wauld mat be &b1e t6 say'whet?ar 2 ?x mat, if any, blae?ing ocauzre?, whether it auuld hava 3 penetrataa an? saake? through thata the jacket, and dripged '4 an ta Eamathing, yau cauldn?tg you caul?n?t Say that far 5 aura, caul? yam? A. I caul? mat cita thate 7 91 Raw, the txeatment 0% a waun? ?nch aa that, tha 3 laceratian as we?ve talkad abaut; weul?n?t it be 9 consistent; that the txaatment woul? be comaiatent with 18 mayba stitches? 11 There ara aeveral ways yam would treat a wound like 13 thia. That woul? be ?na. 13 Q. S?it?h?$ wauld be ?ne: is that right? 14 Ah That?a carrect. 15 gutting same kin? afaer ?an?age an it wculd ha ancther 16 preceas? 17 A. That?? cmrxact. 13 Q1 Maybe even same tape, clcsure? 19 A. That?a carrac?. 23 9? Even a stagla kind mi a cluaure? 21 That?g carreat. These are all apyrapriate ways ha 23 treat it ?w 23 It woul? ha wrappe? and ?rasse? aha mavered in some 2% may 30 it waul? not gat infested; right? 25 Thak?? marrect. C. (216}5?5?8112 1415 '1 Qw You ?an?h Knaw haw 6e99, haw ?eep thia waun? was; da 2 you? 3 Within parimeters, Nat very sgaci?ically. a Fat a wound lika thig he have a agar lika that, it haa ta 5 hava genetrata? ?hraugh tha Superficial layar 0f the akin a which ia giva at taka abaut that thick, It baa ta have gattan iata the aubcut?naeua area far it Em have ?armed a 8 saar like that. Haw much ?eepez it went, whether it went in the bnna or mugcie, I can?t answer that (indicatingla 19 Q. But the treatme?t waul? be game kind 0f a bandage with 11 stitchaa 0r Eomathing like that? 12 A. Yes. Spegificallyg it waul? cleaning the 13 wanna, axamining the waun? far depthinks-any ?eep tisaua w? muscla, ten?an, at it 15 waul? inv&1vg clasing the wcun? with atitahas, which we 1% mantiana? tape; stitches a: staplas, that wmuld 1? be the treatment? 18 MR. GELEER One mamentg yuur Hanor? 19 {Diaau$aian had aff the recan?.) 2G MR. GELBERT: Ea furthar quastimns. 31 Thank yau? 22 23 24 25 FRANCINE (216]575w9113 WW Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 20 of 170. PagelD 12223 King Re?iract 1416 REDIREQT 3 BY MR. 3 Q. Juat a aeuyla quiek quaatiana? 4 You mentiaae? 5gmathing abmut tha trunk area, What axactly i3 the trunk araa? 5 alassicallyg the trunk agaa ia amm$idara? ta he the area item the neck ?awn intw the gxain It imclu?es tha cheat, the back, a?amman, an? flanks, tha main partian ?13 9 0f y?ur bo?y ather than ycur axtx?mitias. In same usage, 10 pemgle will mangider all th? araa ?20m hara ?awn ta abaut ll hera, ?gain, the neck frem the gxmin area (indicahingl? 12 An? you wez? nevaz askad t0 $yacifically 100k at big 13 right arm; 1% a, Na, I waa mat. 15 Qt his right aide of hia hm?y? 16 N9, I was mat aske? ta lack at any yaxticular part 0f 17 the bu?y at all, juat t0 ?g the haa?mtewtue examinatia?, 18 and again; as tha ?ietatiem showa, all thia area of tha 19 trunk (in?icating). 20 MR. Na further quegtians? 21 Netting furtherh 32 T33 CGURF: Thank ywu very much. 23 THE Thank yam; 24 (Witnesa excuse?q) 25 ER. The next withES is L. V. C. EALOFEKQ (216357?w?llg ?mm?H WVWIVWVW Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 21 of 170. PageID 12224 King Ra?iract 1417 1 LcGimtyg lawful aga, callad as a witness by 8 th? Gaveznmantg aftar havimg bean first ?uly sworn? wag axamiae? and teatified as fallowss 8? 9 DIRECT 19 BY MR. 11 Q. Gaa? magning, 13 Gaa? marning; 13 Wmuld yam plaase state year mama an? spell yam: last 14 name, aha spell yam: fixat mama? 15 an L1 V. ?cGinty, Jr?, ?izat name 13 initial Ly initial 15 as in ?Victmr,? Muen?wX~HwTw?? 17 And can yam tell as what yam 66 fer a living? 13 A, a ?gecial Agant with the Fa?aral Bureau 0f 19 Envaatigati?n? 3% 9? And whereabauta ara yam an a??igne?? 21 I?m a3$igne? t0 the Eaducahg Kentucky, regi?emua 32 agency out af tha Laui?villa ?ivisiwm, 23 Q. And haw leng hava yaw bean a spacial agent af the 34 a, Fat over 29 ywara 35 ?g An? as part GE your ?u?iasp did yam make an arragt an FRAECINE EALOPEK, (216)575?3112 Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 22 of 170. Page D#: 12225 McGinty Diract 1418 1 Navamh?? 8, 1989? 2 Au Yea, I did. 3 Q. Ana maul? yau tall um wha ycu arreste? an that ?ate? 4 9. I arreata? Ray ?cn?s. 5 Q1 Can you tall as whera that azraat t??k glaae? 6 Au It t??k pl?ce an Highway 51 marth, just Gutaide a? Wiakliffay Kentucky. 8 Q. What chargeg did yen arrest Jahn Ray Bon?s an? 9 A. ?e wag arrastgd an f??eral arms chargea Exam the 18 ?arthern District 9f Ghia. 11 Q. Can yam tell us haw yen came t9 make that arrest? 12 A. we raceive? iufazmatimn that Jahn Ray Bands w? 13 MR9 GILBERT: Objection; haarsaya 14 9R. MSREQRQ: It?s not being effera? fax the 15 tru?hg ju?t ta axplain haw he came he make 16 axr??tg Judge. 17 THE COURT: All right? I will let it Game 1% in far that limited gurgasa. 19 A. We received infermatiam that John Ray Eun?s was in the 20 Paducahp Kantucky area; 6r thaw aataally, the Fultan, El Kantacky araag an? he waa a fugitive frem Obie. An? he was 22 listed an Amarica'g Ma5t wante? prugzam ?w 33 Can yen tall 53 ?w 2% MR. I?m gaing t0 objact and ask km 25 hava that strimken? FRAECINE C. (2161573?0112 MwGinty Direct 1419 1 THE SOUET: The laat ?art, I thiak it i? 2 gr?tuitausu 3 MR. GILEERW: What?s what I am talking 4 about. 5 TEE CQURT: will Strike that, digregar? 6 the althaugh wa haar? a littla bitu 7 BY M3RFORE: 3 Q, Eescribe for us tha circumstancas haw yau actually 9 made the arreat, how yau ma?e the stop mf the car, an? how 10 that was set up? 11 A. Vega W6 establiah?a a on a bri?ge which 15 12 knuwn-as the Mile Lang.Bridge, just north of a Wickli?fe, 13 .Kentuakyg we baa the af @ransgertatien black 14 each en? sf the bridge and let.ttaffi? thraugh an a limitaa 15 basis? 16 Am Bands and hia vehicle ayyzaached the area, WQ 1? pulled in front 9f him an& at?y@e? him abmut the mi?ale of 18 the bridge. 19 Was ha actually driving a mar? 29 Neg he was mat. 21 Q, Aad di? you parswnally appraach tha car after yam made 22 tha atay? 23 Ea3, ?id? 24 Q. Ana cam yam twli US what he wag ?aing when yam to 25 the car? FRANCXNE C. SALSPEH: (215)375??ll? Case: Doc?#: 494 Filed: 02/19/91 24 of 170. PageID 12227 Mc?inty Bireat 1 Ha wag an tha passenger si?a 9E tha V?hiCl? ?hat wag 3 being aperated by anather in?ivi?uala At the tima that I ayyxnachea the car, he ha? a partahle palicewtyye saanner 4 im him gesaegsianp apgarently li?tening t0 it. 5 Q, He aatually baa the in hi? ear? 6 A. Yeas 7 Showing yau what hag haam marka? $3 vaarnment?a 8 Exhibit 41, can yam tell u& what Exhibit 41 KQ 1&30 A, Yes. It?s a mayth Caxmlina 0?eratur?$ license; in the 10 name 0f Wayne Matthew Mabe a: M?be? 11 Q. .An? can you tell us whera that ?w Exam whom that 13 ?license was nbtained? 13 R. Tha licensa wag abtainad Exam Mfa Ban?sg 14 Q, .He ha? that license an hia yer?an? 1% A. Yes, he did? 116 Q. Haw, can yen tall us what yam t0 actually identi?y 17 Mr. an?s aft?r making the stay? 18 A. Yes? I apptaache? the car an? aske? if he wag 19 Mr. Bcn?a. 29 He yam knaw wha I am; 21 And I sai?a why den?: yau tall ma wha ymu ara? 22 And ha tal? me he was Jehn Bandsa 23 Q. And at what paint them ?id you mbtain that licenaa? 24 Ag Aftar we Sacured him; it wag ahtaina? from his 25 wallet. FRANCINE C. (216)575*9112 McGinty nirect 1421 1 H?w, a?tar aha arreat wag campiete?, yum 2 personally tran?yart My? Emn?g t0 where he was ultim&te1y 3 takan after the arrest? 4 A. Yea, I di?n 5 Q. An? wera yam in ?ha can with him than? 5 Yaa, I waa? 7 Q. Ra? di? that ear have a cammarcial radiu? 3 A. YQSF it 9 Q. And wag the cammezcial ra?ia an during the tim? y?u 16 were transparting him? 11 A. Yea, it was; 12 av And do yam recall anything abant the arrest being 13 broadcaat avar commeraial radic? 1% A. Y??a The informaticn abwut the arrast was on tha 15 lucal xadiw station that we ware listening am? aw a 15 ragult wf heating that braadcaatp MK: Bands 1? spantanaausly 18 MR. GELBERT: Objecticn. May we appraach 19 the banah? 26 THE COURT: You caa give the 21 canvarsahian. Wa dan?t knew what it. 22 MR. GILBERT: Well, yaw: ?anarg I want ta be 33 able tn make an abjeation at th@ si?ebazu 2% TEE QQURT: All right. Coma ?vera 25 - FRQEQEME C. (215}575~9112 w'M??W?wt?ww Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 26 of 170. PagelD 12229 Mc?inty Biraat 1&23 1 (The fallmwing pracea?ings were ha? at ai?ebar ?at 2 0f the hearing ?f the juryz) 3 THE All right? What ig ywur abjectian? 5 MR. GILBERT: Number when he?s in at thia timw having bean arte3ta?g THE CO??wz Veg; 8 MR1 GILBERT: 13a ha?a abmut t0 give him, $.13 ha?g abaut tn testify as ta a 3tatamemt ma?a by my alient l? withaut properly being Miran?ize?, and an 3 would have a 11 pyablam with aamis$ibility of that. 12 . Second Of all; thera?g some statemanta that are made 13 that Whil? mayba nanabjectionable undar Miranda, are fully 1% prajudioialg irralavant an? not probative, an? may tend ?g 15 be a 493 15 Far ?xampleg in the 382 that I have, Mr? Ban?a 17 in?icate? that he ha? attan?ed the Hall'a Angela trial in 18 Louisville, Kantucky, whega the Hell'a Angela ware wrangly 19 convictad in that trial. 30 THE CGURT: in what? 21 QILBERT: In a trial where the Hell?% 22 Angels wara wrangly canviete? in ?hat trial. 23 I dan't gee haw that fuxthaxa any issue in thia ma?a. 24 It mnly serves t0 indiaata tn the juxy the regulta QE a 25 trial ?hat ha? Reva: bean ?w ?6 yam have any pxablem with FRANCENE C. (2153575~0113 mu?: Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 27 of 170. PageID#: 12230 McGinty Dix?ct 1423 1 that, striking that part mf it? 2 I maan if it ?aa? 3 anything "m 1% TEE CGURT: "9521:61sz ma? 5 If it ?aea anything, it gags 5 ta n15 credibility when he says he dian?t am thiS because 7 we ar? ?at gaing an get intm th?ta 8 THE CQURT: All righto 9 GELRERT: Ahyway, the purpa?e 6f this 19 whale line of qua?timnimg is ta $haw that ha knew that he 11 wag wante?. 12 Exactlye 13 MR. ?xactlya 1% GILBERT: I ?anat think that furthers 15 any in interaat in that. 16 WOOLEY: Th9n he will hava t9 laa? him 17 to ask him, not what ha aaidp 18 MR, Right. 19 Is there anything mara? 30 MR, GILBERT: ether than the grablam with 21 th? a?vising him 3f hia rightg. 22 $33 Well, I kn?w what 23 argumant is going ha ha. The afficer di?n?t interragate 2% himv ha rasponde? ta the ra?imy 18 that it? 23 MR. MORFORD: And I will ha henaat, I hava C. SALOPEK, Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 28 of 170. PageID#: 12231 Mc?inty Direct 1&24 1 @ufposely trie? to avoi? "w 2 THE QGURT: a littla louder. 3 MR. MQRFORD2 I have baen yurposely trying 4 ta avoi? asking queatians abaut reading the tights an? 5 things. I $0n?t want ta mistry ahis case by having him say 6 ha invake? the Fifth Amen?men?. This i6 a ayamtaneaus 7 ?tatement by Ean?s when he yigad a? when ha heard the 8 radin and said an? staxte? talkingu 9 And 30p the athe: thing 13g I?m sur?rise? we axe right 10 hex? right new talking abaut this? He had an ?m if thare 11 was a Fifth Amen?mant ?roblem ?u 12 MR. GILBERT: He, may 13 THE COURT: Na, we ar? tryimg 1% MR. GILBERT: In the 382 yau gave me taday, 15 it indicat?3 he was a?vi?ed 0f hia right?g 16 MR. I?m talking ahaut th? fir?t 17 uney the atatement. 18 THE CGURT: Ye?e i dan?t know that it's 19 necessary ta hxing befare tha jury he was advisad of his 20 rightaa 21 MR. And invoked them? 22 THE But an the first question "w 23 MR. i?can bzing out it was 2% 35 THE CQURE: geing t9 let it eema in; a C. 3313:0933, Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 29 of 170. PagelD 12232 ?a?inty Birect 1&23 agontanamus qaa?tion not by interxagatian of the 2 afficer; if that39 ?he easee 3 And I will ask twa questioms a ?9 bring that amt? THE ?kay. 1 theught yam ware. 5 abjem?ing ta the Ka?ia aha-why di? ha speak 0f the 7 xa?ioa Okaya 8 {The fareg?ing wera ha? a? sidebar Gut 9 of the heating of the jury1.-. . . ..- . 1, LV- 1426 With respect to anything Mr. Bun?s Sai? after that radio, news braadcase was aired in the car! had you asked him any quemtions or were these juwt au?picious statements that they made? 3 A Thay wara suapiciaua statem$nts ha made. 6: Can yau tall u? what, if anything, he aaid with ragard tc 7i what had been broadcast over the radia? 8: a Yes. He said that the depicticn of him in the program was g? erreneous since the actcr that partwaye? him was Emcking and he 10? had net smoked since 1973. Ha alsc Etatad he had not haen tn 11-. Sandusky in the paat two y3ars. 13 New, you say the which program are you talking 13 about? 14 i A America?g Mast Wanted program. 15? and had that baan ment?gned in the radiq ?awa brbadcamt? _16_ A Ya?, it had been. 17 MORFORD: Mathing further, Your Hanmr. 13 19 CROSS EXAMINATION ?0 BY MR. GILBERT: 21 Mr. MaGinty, that?a not all he said, was it, he alga said. 22 did he mat, that he di? mat the crime? 33 He did, yes. 24 He did say that, didn?t he? 35 A He did say that, yas. Case' nnci?: 494 Filed: 02/19/1427 1 You didn?t bring that out befcre tha jury on direat, did you? 3 - A I ?id not. 4 1 All right. But you ha? no reasan to axmluda tha statement 5 that he was not guilty m? the crimeyeason. 7 Okay. Mr. McGinty, ycu have prepared a report, have you 8 net, of tha involvemant with Mr. Bonds and his a?reat and $0 on 9 ?-and go forth, have yam mat? 10 A That's correet. 11 and you have reviewed the copy 0f that report before you 12 ?ame in the court today? 13 A I hava. 14 Now, commanly, these are designad tn re?uae in tha 15 mogt acaurate form that you can a summary of the avantg that 16 occurred that naed tn be reported so that later on in a trial ar 17 a5 part of tha investigation, yen can refer $0 you have some 18 accurate account, isn?t that true? 19 That?s corremt. 20 wa, in this particular case, tha arrest occurrad on 21 ?Novembar 8th, di? it not? 22 A That's carrect. 23 Of '89? 24 A That's correct. 35 And the report that you prepared, and I will Show it t0 W.W Case" 9-99-rr-nn7vn-17 494 Filed: 92/19/91 32 01170. PagelD 12235 1428 1 you if ywu need it he pefresh your recollection, was mrepared on 2 1 November 24, 1989, wag it met? 3 i A No, sir, that's marrect? 4 i It was typed on November 1989? 5 i A That'a correct. 6 But it was dimtath an Novemhar 10, '89, two days? 7 A That?s carrect. 8 I All right. ?ow, when you haar a auapect or ?amebody under. 9 arrest make statements, you want ta make sure that what they say, 13 is completely accurate so there?g no confu?ion, fight? . 11 A To tha best of my recolleation, yas. 12 2 You don?t want it ?w you ?nn't want it mm tha nuanca 9r 13 the inference to be mialeading, do yau? 14 i 9 That's correct. 1% $0 I taka it that you wxpte same handwrittan 9? gut some 16 handwritten notes together imgadiately after Mr. Ronda ma?a 1V thasa statementa that yau're talking abaut. I wwuld aasume that- 18 1 you would have made Some mates, ?idn?t you? 19 5 A Ma?a mates afterwarda, yas. 20 1 Do you have those notes with yen today? 21 A MD, I do nct. 22 1 Whera are thmge notes? 23 I A I have n9 idea whare those nataa are. 2% They may even be in existenca as far 99 yen know? 25 A I don?t know whather they are in existence 9r not. ?a Case" R'RQ?r?r?nn77n?17 Dnr? AQA Filnd- (19/10/01 nf pagegg 92;; 12235 1429 1 All right. How, you talked about the roadblock and that 2 Mr. Bonds was stopped and he was a paosonger in a vehiolo. That 3 vehicle aidn?t try to run the roadblock or anythingdid not. 5 And Mr. Boods, you say, was in the vohiola liotoning to 6 A_what you roferro? to as a portable Scanner, is that right? 7 A That?s correct. 8 Did you bring tho portablo scanner today to court with 9 you? 10 A I don't have it in court with me, no. 11 You didn't aid you soimo it? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 But you didn't WW no one told you to bring it to court, 14 they? 15 A No, thoy ?id not. 16 go we could see whothor it woolly is a scanner or 17 ?Isomothing oloa? 18 MR. WOOLEY: Objection. 19 MR. GILBERT: I will withdraw thato 20? THE CGURT: All right. Dioregard. 21 (By Mr. Gilbert) Now, you indicated that when you came our 23 to Mr. Rondo? prooenoo, what ?w you oai? something to him, did 23 you not; aid you gay oomething? 24 A Yes, I did. 25 What did you say? 1439 1 A asked him ha was. 2 And yau teatifiad 0n direot that he said you know what 3 "You know wha I am?? 4 A That?$ corract. 5 All right. I want ta Shaw you ywur report that was 6 prepared. You recall this report, d0 yau not? 7 1 A yag, I do. 8 And acesn?t it ?ay "Bands, ?pon exiting the aar, admitted 9 he wag Johnnie 10 A Correct. 11 Thera'a nmthing in that repurt.that says "You know who I 12 am"? 13 i A Na, that's mat in thera. 14 Yau falt w~ but yau did ta?ti?y today in open court? 15 A i did. 16'; But it?s mat in your r?ggrt from two years ago? 17 A No. 13 - Okay. New, an the way t0 Paducah, ymu wef? in 19 Hmpkinsvilla, Kantuaky, i? that where you were whan he wag 20 arr?gted? 31 A No, air. 22 Excuse me. Was it Wickliffa. Kantucky? 23 i A He wag arrested just out$ide GE Wickliffe, Kantuaky. 24 And Wiakliffe is about how far from Paducah? A About thirty miles. 25 3:99-cr 00.720 12 DOC 49/! Fi!ed: 02/19/Case" 1431 1 And it wasn't long after the ride to Paducah that this 2 radio brmm?aawt came on, waa it? 3 A Tha ri?e t0 Paducah was t0 take Mr. Bends to the fedsral 4 courthousa far procassing. ?ftar Mr. Bands was pro?9899d at tha 5 federal courthmusa in Paducah, hE-was than planed in a car for 6 transportation to the Christian Ccunty Jail in Hopkinavilla, 7 Kantucky, which is approximately 85 miles ?rem Paducah. 8 All right. So it was aftar he was 9 A0 That?? correct. 10 To cuurt? 11 A That?s aorract. 13 Ana thera was anather ride that thia braa?mast came an? 13 A That?s carrect. 19 be you ramembar haw long mftar ha was first arragtad t0 15 the point whare this radim came on, took place? 16 A It would have been sevaral hours. 17 Savaral hours? 18 A 19 And were you the Que who isauad the preas release or the 20 statement of the media that causa? the broadca$t to came on? 21 A N0, sir, I was not. 22 00 you have any idea how it came abnut that it wag 23 annmunced that Mr. Bonds wag arragted? 34 A Probably the Kentucky ?tata $01109 isgued a press release 25 at that tima. Case 1432 1 9 Now, you talkea abcut the atatement about tha amtcr 2 dapicting him an tha anew waa mhown smoking and he hag not 3 smoke& since 1973. De you know what Mr. Bonds? intent was when 4 2 ha made that atatament at all? 5 MR. Objaatien, Yam: Honar. 6 THE COURT: Sugtained. 7 i He did nat you didn?t taka that to ha a con?ESSion, did? 8 5 you? 9 A Na, air. 10 MR. GILBERT: No furthar queatiana. 11 MORFORD: Juat one queation. 12 13 REHIRECT EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. MOREORD: 15 -Baae? upon Mr. Bonds unsgliwited stataments about 16 Amarica*a Mast Wantad, was th??e any daubt in your mind that he 17 knew he was wanted at tha time cf the arra?t? 18 MR. GILBERT: Objectian. 19 COURT: Sustaine?. 20 MR. NORFORD: Nothing further. 21 THE CQURT: rhank yam, Offiger mm I shmuld say 22 Special Agent I believe. 23 MR. MORFORD: One last thing, Your Humor. I Weuld 24 like to mmve the admiasion o? Exhibit 41 and alga ask to publigh 25 i=it't0 tha jury" 1433 1 THE GOURT: Any objection? 2 MR. GILBERT: No abjection, Your Honar. 3 THE All right. Thank you. It will be a admitted and publi?had. 5 MR. WOOLEY: Wmuld ywu like us to call and awear tha a next witness while the item-is being passed, ?Gur Honor? 7 THE COURT: I think they can do two things at one 8 tima and also chew gum. 9 MR. WODLEY: vaernment calls David Hess. 10 11 Theraupcn, tha ?ovarnmant called a5 a witneas, LEE 12 HESS Wha, having been firat duly $w?rn, testified an his oath 13 ag fallows: 1% MR. WOOLEY: Your Honcr, may we have a side bar 15 before we bagin? 16 THE Do you nea? the Caurt Reparter? 17 MR. WOGLEY: Yes. 18 (Aside ta Raportar) 19 MR. WOOLEY: I have just been reminde? by my 20 cowcaunael and the-FEE case agant something that I ?w 21 THE COURT: I can?t hear yam. 22 MR. WOQLEY: I have ju?t baan ramindad by the FBI 23 agent ana co?counsal of something that I had forgot?an. Mr. 24 Hasa, who 15 a Witn33$ to the gcane, he arrive? at Mr. Waratuke 25 hag a fivewyaar 016 drug related conviction and I don?t know M-wwa WW C85 l; Q-QO nr nn70n 17 Eilorl- none/Q1 00 . VIUV VI l?v Vl? H- I Iluu- UU "h Ll .LJI 1434 1 ?w bring that up now. I don?t think it?s a yr?per scape of 2 anybody?g cross examinatian. 3 We can I will get the exact conviction information, 4 :.bwing it dawn have. mr. H953 will be here during Graf'? . tastimony ana if Gaunt wants to review exactly what the 6 aonvictian is and ahow it t0 these lawyers and the? man daci?e 7 if they want ta call him back to ask him about that. 8 MR, RUBY: Just ona question. I3 ha on prwbation? 9 MR. MORFORD: Not that I?m net aware of. 10 MR. WOOLEY: I'm not aura What 11 THE Yam think the defense i3 going t0 aak him 12 that?' 13 MR. WOGLEY: I?m juat bringing it up* I navar 14 until just ?ow. Thay didn?t know until I?m telling themr 15 now. 16 THE COURT: Are yo: mbjacting to them asking that? 17 MR. WOGLEY: Yes, i woul?, but they ?cn't have 18 anough information, ta be fair to them, ta formulate thi? 19 . position on it because I haven't tald them abmut the conviation. 20 i What I'm suggeating is we just go thrmugh the whole thing 31 THE COURT: You can go through the whola thing, but 22 - what's your exceptimn? 23 MR. WOOLEY: Ha, I'm jU?t adviaing them an the 24 xeccrd. 25 THE COURT: Why do you feel that that information is Case? 3:89-Cr 00720 12 Dec 494 Fi!ed: 02/1 '91 39 of 170. I 1435 1 not availabla to the dafense on cre?ibility? 2 MR. WOOLEY: Because it ha? nothing to do with his 3 cre?ibilityfelony conviction. 5 MR. GILBERT: You?re allmwe? t0 brihg falony 5 aonvictiwns up. 7 THE COURT: Ten years 13 within tha judgment of the 8 Gourt. 9 MR. MORFORD: Within tha judgment of tha Court. 10 That?s why we want ta bring it up. 11 THE CGURT: Yeah. I think if it fits into their ?as? 12 they?re gcing to make him a bosom buddy or Ray 13 MR. RUNSTLER: You read my mind. 14 {End 0f Aside t0 Raperter.) 15 MR. WOOLEY: May I Your Homer? 16 THE COURT: I think are we ww sure, go ahea?? 17 18 DIRECT EXAMINAEION 19 BY MR. WOOLEY: 20 Goad morning. Cauld ymu please gtate yaur full name and 21 spall your laat name for the Ccurt Reporter? 22 A David Lea H655, 23 Mr? Haas, you?re gaing to have to try to keep your voice 2% up; If you could maybe move thoae microphonas closer. 25 THE COURT: Maybe hul? that microphone in your hand. 1436 1 That?s fine, and just hold it up about that far you. 1 9 (By Mr. Wooley) Mr. Baas. do you knuw a person named 3 Elizabeth Graf? 4 A Yeg, I do. 5 Haw do you Elizabeth Graf? 6 i A 'We have live& togethar for 7 THE COURT: ?ou're gaing t0 have ta speak up. 8 1 A We have lived togathar far tha paat fiva y?ars. 9 I 9 (By Mr. Woclay) Mr. Haas, did you knew Elimabeth Graf an 1G Fabruary 37, 1933? 11 1 A was, did. l2 Diracting your attentiun ta that avening, did you have the 13 occasion to accompany her ta a bank near tha Sandusky Mall? 14 A I dithe ba?k? 16 A . We ?rove? 4 1? And what wag the purpose 0f ynu going to the bank with 18 Misa Gra?? 19 A To make a bank drop for the place whara she workg. 20 Haw wa$ aha amplayad at that time? 21 A Sha was assistant manager at Larner $hopa. 22 And Lerner?s ig a atora in the Sandusky Mali? 23 i A That's corract. 24 This wag an a mm you ma?a this deposit in the evening 25 after the storm clasa?? Case -?-RQ-rr-nn720-Jz Dec #:494 Filed: 02/19/91 410f170. Pa 1437 1 A Yes. 2 Who drove to the bank, Mr, ?ess? 3 A I did. 4 4 Whose car wag it, air? 5 A It was her car. 6 I Direating yeur attention :0 the bank.itae1f new. than after you have arrive? at the bank, can yau tell the jury as you: 8 pulla? your car into the bank to make the dapmsit if you noticed; 9 anything unusual occurring at that tima? 10 A 1 didn't natice anything unusual. -Thara was a war in 11 front of me an& I seen a figure atanding but I aidn?t ~w at that 12 tima I ai?n't I didn't notica anything unusual. I 13 Therm was a war in front of your car? 14 A Yes. 15 And theta was a figure gtan?ing out?ida tha car? 16 A That?a correct. 17 Did you natiee if thia figure did anything? 18 A He was just standing there. As far as I dould tell he was_ 19 just ?tan&ing by tha driver's $ida door. 30 Did he at ?ame point leave the driver?s siae deer 0f the 21 car in front of you? -22 A Yaah. Wham he notica? that there were vehicles pulling 33 in, namely mine, he_to?kznatice of that fact an? walked or 34 hurriedly walked hawk to aux vehicle. 25 During thi? peria& of tima when thia man was standing at .WVW m,m.m Cas Doc 49/! Fi!ed: 02/19/91 42 0? 170 PagelD 12245 1438 1 this other car, did yam his face? 2 A N9, I did not. 3 This man appieached your ear at same point? A Yes. #5 what did he ?o after he apprmached yaur car? 6 i A He stuck two firearms in the window. I rolled window 7 dawn Wham I saw him coming. As soon 35 he turned to atart 3 walking hawk to the car is whan_1 noticad that he had what 9 appearad to be gung in his hand. I rolled the window down causal 10 . 1 "w you know, ii had ha ha& something to say to me, I didn't 11 want him to be aheoting the windowa ?ut or something like that. 12 so I rdllad tha windww down. He mama back to the mar and put 13 the guns in the win?ow next to my head. 14 Did he gay anything at this paint? 15 A "JuSt back off," that?s all he said; 16 At that paint, did you f?cus your attentien at all on 17 thasa guna? 18 A Yea. 19 Are yam able to ?ascribe them in any way? 30 A Handguns. Ona appeared t0 me to be a .45. The other one 21 I was met a .45. I aouldn?t really tell what it wag but it waan't 22 2 a .45. 33 When yau a say a .45, yau maan a haxier looking gun? 24 A Yea. 25 1 MR. KUNSTLER: Yaur Honwr, I objaat to that, "you Case" ?mp-#1494 Filed: 02/19/9- 43 Of170. Pa 1439 1 i mean a boxier locking gun." That?s testimony. 3 MR. I?m sorry. 3 Can yam it in terms of itS appearance withaut 4 just ?esignating it as a .45? 5 A Well, it didn*t hava a cylinder an it. It wag more 6 angular loaking than like a poliaa issue .38 or Something like 7 that would be. 8 9 Okay. After this man paintad tha gang in the car and said ?9 "back off,? What di? the man do than? 10 He turnad and lowke? behind us. New, I can Dmly a?sume 11 that he was seeing headlights MW 12 MR. KUNSTLER: Objection. 13 THE couaw: Sugtain?d. 14 Just tell us what he aid. You don?t hava to wm 15 A He turned an? locke? behin? the car where we were sitting 16 and than he turned hawk, stand there fer a sacon?, pulled tha 17 guns mut of the car an& teak off running, 18 Wag he at tha window of your car any langer than the 19 period of time it tack him to Bay ?back 2:3 A No. 21 Can yam de$criba tha lighting at that timeWas yellew. It waan?t white mercury type 23 vapor lights. It was a vapur type light. His hawk was lit. 34 There was light coming behind him? 25 i A That?$ currect. WNW . .1. Case; nnr? 494 Filed: 02/19/91 0f170. PagelD 12247 1440 1 I Did you aver get a gmod leak at his faca? 2 7 A I did not. 3 1 Did yau sae where he want then after he left your car? 4 A Jugt ran in front of our car and angeled the bank 5 - parking lot and than I didn't pay anymore attention. I juat 6 tria? to ge? out m? there. Baae? on this ca?tact with him under the airaumstan?as yam. 8 i have described, are you able to degcribe him at all, give us any 9 I wort 0f descriptimn? 10 A No, just that appaared ta me ta be ?ark complemte?, dark 11 1 hair and I would gay medium to tall build? That's all I coul? 13 really gay. 13 1 9 Medium did you me?ium to tall? 14 7 A Yeah. 15 Wera you ever stan?ing at a point when he was atanding or l? were yau in the car? 4 17 A I wag seated the entire time. 18 . And he was standing the entire time? 19 I A Yes. 20 9 Now, do you recall sometime aftar this event accurring 21 that law enforcemant cfficers aske? you to look at an array 0f 22 1 photos cf fangs of individuals? 23 A Yes. 24 i And they asked you if you could recognize any of those 25 people? WW gwwm? Case" Dnr? AQA Filnd- (19/1 0/01 45 of pagegg 12248 1441 1 A That?o corroct. 2 9 Looking at thooe photos, were you ablo to ooy.whethor or 3 mot tho man that you saw that night Either wag or was not in 4 thooe photoo? 5 I was not. 6 MR, WOOLEY: I have nothing further. Thank you, Mr.? 7 Hess. - 3 9 CROSS EXAMINATION 10 3? MR. KUNSTLER: 11 9 Mr. Hess, my name 13 William Kunstlor. I?m the attorney 12 for Stoven Toe ovor there. You?ra nervous, arongt you? 13 A Yes, I am. 14 Relax. It will be over shortly an? I will be try to be a? 15 quick as posoible to get you out of hora. With roferonco to 16 your ?w we will start with the loot thing that you woro ooked 17 where you wore aoked to look at a photo array. I?m going to 18 ohow you Defen?ant?s in avi?onoo and maybe you oan think back. 19 I know it?s a couple of years. Try to ralax a little. 20 A Gkay. 21 A couple of yoars. You romomhor that was the photo array 22 that you saw? 23 A Yes. 24 And you indicated hare that you oouldn?t positively 25" identify anyone WW Wm? Cas- Doc 49/! Fi!ed: 02/19/91 46 Of 170. 1442 1 i A That?s correct. 2 2 ww in that? But you did say that the persmn that's in 3 5 Ho. 2 there looked like the subject ycu saw that might, do you 4 i remamber that? 5 . A No, I don't rtmembar aaying that. 6 E'm gaing to $how you a repart 0f that. an ihci?ent of thel 7 array and ask you just to read the lamt paragrayh? 3 A Last paragraph? 9 Right. And gee if that refreshes your recollactian. 10 1 THE COURT: Just read that tn ymurself. 11 Read it to yoursalf. 12 A Okay. 13 i Have ymu read that to yoursalf? 1% I A YES, air. 15 i Dues that HQW refresh racollection? 16 7 A Yes. WM 17 That you told him that the person in Na. 2_1o?kea mast 18 like the pargon you saw that night? 19 I A Yea. 20 With the two guna? 21 . (No 22 . You have t6 apeak up. 23 A Yas, air. 2% Okay. 25 A I'm SOEEY. Case? 3:89 cr 00.720 12 Doc 49/! Fi!ed: 02/19/9+ 47 of 170. Pagch 12250 1443 1 And you will recall this wag w? you lacked at this array 2 on March 11th mm we have agreed that?s tha date, 1988 mm which 3 was about twelva or 30 days a?tar the incident. 4 A (Nuddad affirmatively). 5 Now, with refarance to Mr. Wosley?g questiwns that you 6 caul?n?t giva much mora of a degaription than that he had dark 7 hair and was medium to tall I think you said, actually, on the 8 date 9f the incidant ycu wrote out a writtgn statement, di? you 9 not? A 10 A Yea, I did, 11 a And when yau Wrate out the written statement, you 12 indicated that the man you gaw Was, you thmught, of Hiapanic 13 arigin, do you ramamhar that? 14 A Yes, I do. 15 And also that you aaid you thmught he was wearing a black 16 stacking hat? 17 A Yeg. 18 And that you watchad him far m? when he stand naxt t0 fmur 19 car for appraximately 15 seconds, do yen remember that? 20 A Yea. 21 And in fact, on that partiaular evening, ycu gave wm ymu 22 wrote out two atatements, ?idn?t yau? 33 A 2g DG you remember? And you also said that he had on bluw 25 jaans? m? Doc 49/! 48 0? 170. .0 . agc?)# 12251 1444 1 A Yes. 2 Ana a black leather jacket? 3 A - Yes, that?s what it appeared you remember also saying that shirt? 6 A I don't romomber saying that.? 7 All right. Lot mo ghow you if thio refreshes your 8 at all. I put red markoo Read it to yourself, 9 A okay. 10 All right. I?m asking you, do you romombor tolling tho 11 authorities that ho ha? a rod colored shirt on, maybe plai?? 12 1 A I still don't romembor oaying it but if itfs my report I 13 it that I did say it. 1% Okay. Ana you mentioned ho had two guno, one you said 18 - one appeared to you to ho a Have you .45?5? 16 A Yea, I have. I 17 Actual? And the other gun appeared to ho omallor? 18 A Yeah. 19 MR. KUNETLER: May I have just a minute? 20 (By Mr. Kunstler) Tho only other thing that I believe I 21 would aok you to do is to ?m if you will and with the Court?s 22 . permission, draw tho .45 you saw that night as best you can? 23 A -0kay. {In?ioato?) 24 Havo you drawn it now? 25 '_Aig Boat I can. Case 3 89 Cr 00720 JZ 494 F:!ed 02/19/91 49lcf170. Pagch# 12252 1445 1 i And that?s haw it looked to you that night? 2 A That's correct. 3 MR. KUNSTLER: Judge, I would offer this inta 4 evidence aa Defenaant's 5 CLERK: Triyle A . 6 MR. Triple A. I will Show it to the 7 prosacution. 8 MR. WOOLEY: Np problem. 9 MR. RUNSTLER: D0 you.have any mbjedtion? 10 MR. WDDLEY: Nope. Whateverhe draw 15 fine. 11 MR. KUNSTLER: An? maybe can pass that to tha 12 jury. 13 i may have one or twc, Judge. Just let me mm 14 With referanca to the gun you have drawn, the .45, which 15 hand waa that in? i? A Gcgh, right han? I believeI?m not sure abmut that. It has been a long time. 19 It's haan a long time. I raalize that. With refarence to 20 the remembrance of the hand, I'm just going ta show yen this 21 again and I markad it again. Just rea? it ta yaurself. 22 Does that refresh ycur racollecticn, what you told the 23 authmrities? 24 A ?Yes. 25 Which han? it was in? Gas 3 89-0-0072!) 12 Doc 49/! Filed: 02/19/91 50 of 170. Pagch 12253 1446 A Yas, sir. 2 1 And that was the right han?, was it? 3 9 A Yes, sir. 4 2 Maw, yam astimatad the height. did you mat, at six feet 5 - tall? 6 i A A3 a guagatimate, yea. 7 I And you said me?ium build and around 200 pounda? 8 a A I would say, gas. 9 I can?t hear you? 10 a I would say yes. 11 3 MR. KUNSTLER: With that, Judge, I ?hink I'm done. 12 2 I baliava I have offerad into evidence 13 MR. WOOLEY: We have n0 to it? 14 THE CUURT: 1 will admit it. 15 We have had a aignal and we?ll taka?eur recessa Remember' 16 A my a?manitimn. ?g 17 MR. WOOLEVX Oh, I have mm I?m worry, 18 I TH ECQURT: It?s up to you new if yam want to 19 continue. 20 MR. WOOLEY: N0, definitely not, ?uaga. Don?t 21 lignore cle&r signal?. ?22 . THE Ramamber my a?menition. 23 1 MR. KUNSTLER: I was hoping he would say yes. 24 {Thereupmn, court racegaad at 11:03 o?clock 25 Case: .: DOC 494 Filed: 02/19/91 51 Of 170. PagelD 12254 1447 1 THE COURT: Be 3&ata?g .. .. .. u. 3 REDZRECT BY 5 Qa Mr? Ha$ag jU$t a couple 6f mattaraa 6 Kunatlez refreshe? ycur :acallaatian by gnawing yum a report farm abaut what yaur mbaarvatians wera when 8 you loake? at a whoto s?rea?g I might ask yam ta lnak at 9 th@ Same yart cf that Earmp again. 10 MR. WODLEE: It?$ the junk anather ll cap? a? itu All Eight? 13 MR. Okay. 3.3 FER. WEDGE-ESE: 14 The laat ?nd tell ua if that refraahes yaur 15 reeallectimn as :0 whathar yam gai? number Ewa lamka? meat 15 like tha subjaat 0r that he lsmked lika the subject? 1? Ag Yea, it dwe?. 18 Ghayu Did yam gay he lmake? ?ma$t like the subject? 1% or ?he leaked like the auh?ect?? 2D A. leaked like subigut.? 31 Q. An? ?aas it alga refreahryaur re?allaatiun a$ ta 32 whether yea sai? ynu scald be very sure at that paint? 23 A. Easy it dues. 24 Q4. And what di? yam say? 25 Ag I caulan?t. Cw (216)57?w?llz Hess Re?iract 14%3 1 You t?stifie? 9n arwsa mxaminatian that yam Ra? a? mne 2 paint ?escribe? thia aub?ect as pmaaibly baing GE Hispanic 3 origin? 4 A. Vega 5 90 you know if ha was or nut ?iapanic? 5 A. Ha, I do mat? Qu What ?w yam hase that atatament an? 8 A. Just a briaf giimpsa GE his camplexionu 9 Q. yam alaw taatifie? an araas examinatia? that in 10 your atatament to tha pelica yam wrate dawn ten to 15 11 secandg. Hasag wera yau ?iming thi? event? 12 A. Ha; I wag ?at? 13 Q. in tarm$ of timar was he at yaux car win?aw any langer 1% than it tank fer him he gay back nf?? 15 Ag may ha wag ?at? 16 And in texm? mf haw you wexa at that time, wera yea l7 calmr wera yam natvaas? 18 k. I was very narvaus? 19 Q. Hun?tlar shawe? ymu a, an9thar farm 0f y?ur w" 23 anuther path 3% ymur atatamautu I?m gaing 21 MR. WGDLEY: 3*m gaing ta Show him this, 22 six? again. 23 KUNSTLER: ?kayw 34 MR: EQQLEY: Y?go L3 BY WODLEY: Cg mvrwAW WIW .494 Filed: 02/19/91 53 Of 170. PagelD 12256 Case: Hg?? Redirect 1&49 1 Ask yam ta rafzegh yam: recallectium as tn which baud 2 he ha? a particular gun imq Yea can look at thatu Buea it 3 @139 refresh yaur remallactimn abmut if he ha? anything ia his left han?? 5 A. Yea; it doe$. 5 What di& he have in big left han?? Anathar gun. (Discussian ha? off the reaar?.3 9 WOOLEY: Mothing fugther. l?l Thank yam: 11 1352 13 BY 14 Juah one quagtiana 15 MR. if yam auuld just laava that 16 with him far ona minute. 17 MR. WUULEY: gatethe left han?, that was a mumh Smallex gun, 20 wasn?t it? 21 An it apyeara? t9 ha, yes? 22 Q. Ana yum ?an?t knaw what kin? af a gun that wag? 23 E0, I am natg 24 MR1 That?a all have? Judg$? 25 MR, WGGLEY: Thank yum. Cy (2153575w?llZ w?wvm Www, Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 54 of 170. PageID 12257 1950 1 (Witnaas excuae?u} 2 WQOLEY: Yang Homer, tha ngaxnmant 3 call$ Elizabeth Grafa 4 RUNSTLER: Waoley, ?a yam want 90 gm 5 ta si?abax? 5 ?aw WGGLEY: YES, whil@ she 19 bainq awarn, 7 cam we $0 thatlawful aga, call?? as a witnesg by 13 the Gnvarnmant, @fter having bean firat 13 duly swarm; was examined ana testifie? 14 as fallawa: 15 Emu want a ai?ebar? I ai?n?t 16 hear that; 17 WQOQEY: Yes? 13 19 (The follawing pracaadings were ha? at Si?abar gut 20 af the heaxing of the ju?ya? 21 Baring the bxaakg I have given 22 Mr. Kunstlaz an aatual cm?y of Mr. raaur?. Ana he 33 gratiously indicated t9 me hhat he ?ida?t want t0 cr033 24 examine abeut itg but just far the recazd; he ?aea hav& a 25 Gapy of that an? ha 13 making his awn jadgment abeut thata FRANCZEE (215)575w6112 . . Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 55 of 170. PageID 12258 1431 1 THE ceumms I will meta ?at the re?ar? the a kind war?aa' 3 ?Stations?? 1 sai? "gratiauap? two syllablagg a kin? ward. 5 THE My: daean?t always 5 hear hhat from tha gavermme?t. 7 vary Earely? 8 ant his mather was in th? courttanmg tam, an? wa 9 ?idn?t feel this wauld aarve one purpoaa 0r anuthare 19 THE That was graci?us u? Y??u 11 KUNSTLER: Thank yam, Judgeu 13 RUBY: Heep yang han?s Off the 13 Judgaa 1% (The faxegming precee?inga were had at gi?ebar amt 15 of the haaring uf aha juryu) 16 17 BERECT EKAMINQEIQN 13 BY W90LEY: 19 Q. Gnad mmrningy wauld yam atate yam: full mama an? agell 26 your last name? 91 &u Elizabeth Mary Graig last mama ia GwaAwF. 23 Q5 Miss Graf, how ara yen amplaya?? 23 Lerner?a Shopa 24 THE QGURT: Pull that micraphon? up a 23 little alaser* FRARCXWE S, (215337?w?llz Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 56 of 170. PagelD 12259 Gx?f Birect 1452 1 8? WGGLEY: 2 Q. M133 Graf ?u 3 3. Yea. he ?w axe yam nezvuus? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q, Okay. You wark at Lernez?$ new: is that right? 7 Fag: I ?ag 8 Q. In Fabruary of '88: yen alga wark at 9 YES: ?i?a 10 Q. 31d yea wank a? the same Etare naw that yau wmrked at 11 than? 12 A. ma, I ?mm't~ W~erww MW mmw_ 13 Q6 ?irecting yam: &tt?ntien t0 the evening 9f 14 Febxuary 27th, Satur?ay aveninga 1983; ?u yam remember 15 almaing the Lather?$ gharw at the San?ugky Mall an that 16 avaning? 17 Yas, I ?gs 18 Qa Ana after yam cloae? the atarea whare did yam go? 19 ?g I want ta the bank? 30 9* Di@ yaw 99 with Eameane? 21 [31-9 735559 I aidns 22 ?g Wha ?id yen g9 with, M139 Graf? 23 A. Bavi? ?assg 2% Q. yau theta haw? 25 A. Ha pieked me up in my ear? FRANCINE (216)375w3112 RERWCM W- W-"w"w Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 57 of 170. PageID 12260 Graf Dira?t . 1153 1 Haw? whau yen arrive? at tha bank in yaur cat, waza 2 thara mthar maza at th@ bank at that paint? 3 Aa Yea. Thara wag ?ne? 4 Qt Gkay? Ra? that wa? a ca: that was in grant af yang 5 hahiud yum as wharani? yau natica anything hayyening with xagpact ta that 8 car and/0r its accugantg? 9 a? Thar? wag, thare were two man. One was trying to 10 forca the ather intm the ca: ar mu I?m nut quite $ure what 11 they wera doingu Thay leaka? like they ware fighting; 13 that?a what it laaked like ta mag 13? There waS ane man nu?si?e tha a?x? 14 Righta 15 An& theta wag anath?r man that was engagad with that 16 man? 1? A. Right. 19 Q. Can yau recall exactly what they were daing? 19 Na. 1 dun't raally what thay were aging. 29 Q. Inciaentally, did yau 1&ter on in kha eveni?g learn 21 tha name mf the mne man? 22 Year 1 ?i?e 33 And who was that? 24 A. I know his first namap Dang. I erembar big 25 las? nameu FRANCENE C, .. er M. ?aw?WW? WVW Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 58 of 170. PageID 12261 Gxaf Biract 1154 1 Qkayg was he the man Stan?ing 0mtsi?e the car? 3 ?39? W?llg I mm 1 hhink he was mm well, th?re wara 3 two men. Thay were bath atanding autside the car? 4 I was a? I cauldn?t figura eat if hm wag trying ta get 3 him ta go back inta the car er if he Slamming him up 6 againat the car. I wasn?t zeally mu 1 ?rmve by how quick 7 t0 matic?u 8 Okay. That?s finea That?s fine. 19 What was the next thing that y?u remembez abaut the 19 wther man? 11 A. Ha came ave: m? tha C?fg aux car had atmpyed an? he 12 had cwma avar ta aux car. And I believe aha win?mw was 13 galle& dawn abaut halfwayv Ha had told us 1& Q, Which windww? 15 A. Whe drivex?s 1 wag ?riving, David ha? came 16 t0 yick me up. 1? mavi?*s win?aw, it was; I believe; yartially rmlle? 18 dOW?e An? ha baa ?ol? m3 tn back e?f an?, yam atay 19 in an: car? 29 Q. The man Bavid's win?mw tw tha mag? 31 A. YES, he aid. A 23 and what did the man gay? 23 A. ?Back eff?" I ?an't ramember the rest? 2% wall, Ga y?u knaw if ha even aaid anything else? 39 25 you even remembeg that? G. SEALQPEK, (215)575m0112 Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 59 of 170. PagelD 12262 Graf Diract 1995 A. tamamhar him gaging aamathing else; but aam?t 2 recall exactly what he sai?. 3 gm Maw, ha?a at th? ather win?cw of tha can an? yau'ra im a the gaat? Right, X?m in the gaggenger"s sea?w 6 Q. Welly he then 1&ava your car? Ag He hacka? ha backed away fram the can? 9 9. Okay. no yam knaw whare ha wen? than? 9 A, I beliave ha went back tawax?g tha back of my Gary 18 like away tawarda the bank. 11 Ga 30 yam recall anything alga ab?ut what else ha 12 afte: that paint in timethe wia?aw mf the amt any lengex ta just ?w 13 than to jugt w?at you juat us he ?idgww? loek at his faca, 915$ Graf? 18 Ru ?at raallyg mat gmc? anaugh to give a really gead 19 descriytian; 29_ Q. Okay. Can yam deacribe m? wall, base? on the geria? 21 of tim? that yen saw him a? wall, ba?nra I ask yam thak 33 mag; at this gariu? Of time? wera yum narvous, calm? Raw 23 were yam faeiing? 2% A, ?raze. 1 think I was in basically a state 0E ES ?hmck? maam n" PRAHCIHE C. ?216)575~0112 Mud-4m w'm Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 60 of 170. PageID 12263 Graf ?irect 1955 1 Q. Did he have &nything in his hands Wham he 3 yam: ear? 3 ?e ha? qua? baliave he had gu?a ia his han?? 4 Q. ?aw; hase? an thiw event that you hava just describe? {.33 Eat u$ and the amaunt 9E time yam saw him ana conditiwng 6 under which you saw himg ware yea abla to give a?y sart 0f ?asmriytisn 9f thia man; in harms 9f bait 6910: "w A. Yesa 9 Q. w? alothing, anything like that? 19 A. Yeg. Di? ywu want that dascripkien? 11 Q5 Yegp ?leage. 12 He had ?arkex hair, abeut brawn, mayba ?ark?r than 13 brawn? 1% It wag really ?ank, 50 it?s ?art 0f difficult t0, yen 15 knew, as ?at a? aalar gags, ?at I beliave he ha& a ?lannel 16 shirt ona Ea ha& a black l??th?f jacket am. That?s 17 ba$ica11y all I raally ramamberu 13 What abonk haight? ?u yam remember him as a tall 19 perscn ?t a Shara pezaan? 26 A. Ha was Quite tells 21 Q. ?e was guite tall? 22 A. Y?ah. 23 Q. De yen remamber in a @alice repart tha? yau aesariba? 24 him? thamgh, at fivewfeetwnina? 25 I?m mat really quad with haights. yeahg I ?n racall FRAECINE U. ?dim m?m-WVW?w-rw-wgw?WVW WVWW Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 61 of 170. PageID 12264 Gra? ?irect 143? 1 thata 2 Q. Ba yam recall @33cribing me ag fivew?emtwnina? 3 MR. Oh; yaut Eou?xg abject. 4 yes. 5 Q. All right? But you?re mat vary gam? at haight?? 6 A, ma, I?m mat. 7 ?aw; afhar this ?vamtp sem?time after this a 8 number ?f ?ays later, the yolice ask ymu to look at a 9 aerias of phmtugrapha 6f the faceg mi a number at 19 in?ivi?uala? 11 A, I dig: 12 Q. And leaking at tha?a yhotagraphsg giwan tha 13 circumstancas un?ex which yau were by thia 14 paracn, wera yau able an gay whether at not that parsan wag 15 at waa mat ?epicted in any 6f these photmgraphm? 16 am Hey I caul? ?at; 1? Q. Yam mauldn?t tella 18 mac 19 9? Aftar this man left ?ne acena, yam have any 20 cantact with smmacna that yam lgarnad ha ha the victim? 21 A. I?m caml? you regaat that? 22 Q. Did yam have any cantaat with the mam that had been 23 aha vimtim mf thig? 24 N0. 35 Q. The man who had been shat? FRAECINE Ca SALGPEK, Graf Diract . 1458 1 Na? (Biacussian?ha? off the recard.3 3 EY M?g WQOLEYS Raw? M153 Graf, mu since this has hap?ene?, haa 5 ?pacial Agent Hallaway whawe? yam th? phatagzapb 3f a man 5 that he twi? yam was namw? Ray Salaxar? 7 Au Yeawell; let ma juat ask yau to lmuk at 9 this phatagraph, which we have marked BS vaernmant?s 18 Exhibit 38g and max yam if yam re?ognize that man as 11 gmmaune th?t ymu have aaen befara? 12 Yes? he 15. 13 ekay, Ana where wmuld yam recagniae thia man Exam? 1% believe he uaw? t0 warm at tha mall. 15 Ye?u 16 A. At a tuxe?a ghap. 1? Qt Was this tha man you saw that night; wigs Graf? 18 A, Now it?s nat? 19 WOQLEE: Year Eanar, waul? affer 30 ?avernment?3 38 an? ask it be publisha?w An& I hava na 21 further quegtiens* 22 KUNETLER: wa have abjectiena 33 THE CQURT: All right, A?mitted? 2% MR. Thank yam. Thank yea; 25 Mi5$ Gzaf. FRANCENE Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 63 of 170. PageID 12266 1 1459 1 CGURT: sit th?xe a faw 3 mum?nt?w 3 THE Gkayu a (?au?eii 5 man KUNETLER: Shall begin? 6 THE I think 83? 7 I can ramin? yam yau man mave that @adium any place a that makag you feel enmfortablea 9 MR. KURSTLER: Thank yang 19 11 EXAMEWATION 12 BY KUNSTLER: 13 Q. We sai? ?hi" Dutsi?ag we mat? 14 Ag $63; I aid. 15 I tal? yam mat ta be nervmus. It will ha aver ?mbni 16 a. (Witnesg laughadn} 17 Q. I just wawtad ta aak yau a few questian$ abaut that 13 mam that ?ight. 19 You indicate? that in xaaponge ta ana 0f Whalay?s 20 questimng that yam ?i?n9t See him but ?95 an inatant? 30 21 yam remember that? I think mm 22 Ye$q 33 Q. An? realize that yau're thinking back naw to almuat 24 three yaara back to 1968? 25 Au Right;a RPEWCM (215)575w?ll? W.W '4 Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 64 of 170. PageID 12267 sra? Crwaa 1450 1 Q. De ycu ramamber; theughg beihg quantiane? gather 2 axtanaively an Maxch lat; thaa wag two days a?texwar?a w~ 3 Yes? 4 QB ~w at the Perkins Palica Eepartment? 5 A. 2&3; I 6 Q, ?na you ramember w? yam Mnaw Chief Heabarlin? ?e was 7 theme? 8 Yas. 9 Q. Ana thega was an inveatigahar Exam the Ezia County 10 yragecutar*s a?ficeg Paul Schnitkerg if yen remember the 11 name? It duesn?t matter? 12 A, Yegu 13 mayb? several ather paaple thara? 14 A. Umwhum. 15 yau weza being queatiana? at that time, ware yam 16 mat? 1? A. Ya?. 13 Qv And I beliave ther& wa$ a tape regor?er there? 19 A. Yas, I believe 30? 23 An? d9 yau remambex being aakad th? questians an gag? 21 ten: 22 "By My? ?chnitkar: 50 yea, thia guy tells mavia 23 tm back aff, Davi? says? akay, Gkayu Did ha leave year 24 caz than?? 25 Ra? yaur answer was tharea ?He stau? there for a FRANCENE Cw SALOPEK, (216)575w?llg H- Graf Crass l??l sample 0f minut$$ amd ?i?n?t say anythingg? 2 Mr. Sahaither aaidg ?Are ywu talking mi?utes at :3 sae?ndg?? 54 yam sai?g ?Two minutes*" 5 Ba yam remember that? 6- $33, 1 d0. 7 Q. And yam ware much clcser ta the incidant h?en, were 8 yau not? 9 A3 Yeah: 18 Q. Gkay, and aatually with refatenca ta a ?aacription, 11 yam i??ieata? think when Mr. Wonley qumationad yam, that 12 yam Eai? he wag abaut Eiveufautwnine Gr aix~feet tall an? 13 than yam aai? als? that you saw that ha had blue jeans an? 14 Aw I believe 19 haa blue jeang an, 15 Q. an? than I think yam in?icata?, aid ymu mat, to the 16 authnrities that he ha? a re? flannel ahirt an? 1? A. I baliave 39; yea? 18 ?nd? in fact, I think yen ?aid hi3 jacket was swam, 1% yam caul? gee the shirt? 20 a? Yaahu 21 Q. And the shirt wag red 3% it caught yam: attentimnr 22 it? 23 A. Umuhuma 2% Q. ?md yau alas baa time anough ta gee that he an 25 wha? yam call tennis ahae?; right? FRANCIRE (215)575m?ll? -VM 7W Case: L. O. DOC #1 494 Filed: 02/19/91 66 Of 170. PagelD 12269 Graf 6:033 1 A. I beliave yeah; 2 Right. 3 Raw; with rafaranae to the sitaatian that night after a tha inai?ent accurza?? aftar yam Saw this man first pushing 5 sameana back inta the car in frank of yum ?m 6 Rightw Q. ?u then gaming to yaur car 8 A, Umwhum. Q. um than was there anather car right behin? ycu? 19 A. Keg; there was. I 11 Ana was that tha car of smmaane ywu knew? 12 A. yesq 13 And th&t wag tha young waman warke? in Wm 14 Am The Lermar*s st?rau 15 Q. What waa big name? 16 Am Stan Nettinghamg 17 Q. Ema h?r father game be pick her up; is that carrect? 18 Y??that car a5 well? 20 I saw him ga hack towar?a that cat? I di?nRt see him 21 at tha car talking with thaw ax anythiag. 32 Q. ?na yum saw him walk twwar? that car? 23 A. Right. 24 Q, An? after that, yau aaw a car which yam desaribed ta 25 the authorities as the getmaway car? FRANCIEE Ce (216)575w?ll? Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 67 of 170. PageID 12270 Gra? Crogs 1&63 1 Yaah. 2 g. Ana that car, yam ramem?at where ?hat ?at was with 3 :aferenca to yaur can? it was in ?zan? 3f my mar t?war?$ the right. It was 5 turne? ai?eways. It was parka? ai?awaya (in?icating)u 6 Q1 ?nd that car that yea saw ?a an, by the way, the man 7 that was sta??ing maxt kw your mar that ymu dascribed t0 3 the jury a? 9 A. Umwhumo 16 I think yam in?icate? ta the authnrities that he 11 ha? two guns in une han?g as yam r??all itona hand ana ane in tha othar. 13 Qa Right? 1% ?n at lik? un?ernaath, undarnaath big jacket; baliava. 15 it waan?t in his han?: it wam his jackat. 1% All right? ?at yum ramambar in yaux atatament "w an? I?m xafexring ta page five now Mr? Schnitker sai?, "What 18 hapye?ad than?" 19 Ana yen saidg ?Ha baa twa gunga Ha stu?k bath gums in 28 the car and h? baa ?ne @Gint?d at David?s hea?w? 31 Sahnitkex aai?; ?Can you tel: ma which han& he had 32 them in?? 33 An? yum Sai?; believe he ha? b?th gang in Qua 3% h1nag? but yau weren?t gura? 35 Right? ERANCLEEIE Co- (2163575w0112 M?u?rwiw Wv?? Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 68 of 170. PageID 12271 Gxa? Crcsa 1 ?g Gkay. 2 Now, with referena? t0 the getuaway gar w? by the may, 3 with xeferenca t0 the guns? as yam what tyye guns they 4 were? 5 A. No? 9? Emu amn?t gums; ?n gnu? 7 A. Na, I ?an?t. 8 g. Okay; But sue leaked bigger than hhe mthar, di?n?t 9 it? 18 yeaha 11 Wall ?w 12 A. It haypema vaty, very ?aat. It wa?n?t lika yam baa 13 time ta raally 10am at it? 1% go ?om?t lat me cut yam GEE. 13 A, E?m Qarryu 15 I?m sarry? The Judge has warned us abuut that and I l? have vialated the rule? 19m aarrya 18 THE CDURT: It's all right; 19 Kumgwb??a My apmlagies. 23 $33 Accepte?q ?1 BY MR. 32 With referenc$ ta w? 23 MR. EUNSTLER: What was that? 2% TEE CGURT: I sai? ?aacapta?.? 25f Thank you. FRANCENE C. {2163575m8112 Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 69 of 170. PageID 12272 Graf 146$ 1 BY ?Rw KUNSTLER: 2 Q. with x??arenue he that, egg was a very small gun, 3 waan?t I 91 believa so. 5 Q1 An? the athez gun; ef couxaeg was larger. 5 ?ew; with reference t0 the gatmaway car, yam macagnizad that sang yam not, as what you waul? aall ?w 8 yuu recognized it as a Badge, didn't yum? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q1 B?aause you have Bn?ges? 11 A. well; I hava a maage. But the De?ga car mm well, I 13 aalla? it a Dcdga becaus? was txying ta give a 13 ?aacriptian 9E tha may ak the timea And aha a? my nl?er la hay?rien?s ha? car that leaked very Similar t@ that car? 15 That?a why "m 15 it was alga a Do?ge? 1? Yes; it was. 1% Qt And yam &e$arihad it as being a vary light; yam said 19 it wag whita ?r fo w?ite, mwra white than aff whita? 23 An A craam male: is wkat I sai& ta them. 21 Q1 But da yam remamber being aske? this quea?ian by ana 22 of khe ath?r w? ?Captain 33859113 It was real light 23 calmre??" 24 And you aai?p "It was a very; very light, it wa3n9t 25 blue, it wasn?t green; it wagn?t gray"? FRAHCENE Cw (215)575m6112 w?m?n?n?r Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 70 of 170. PagelD 12273 Graf Cress 1456 i an Rightu 3 ?It was whitw at white. Mare white tha? aff 3 whi?aa Tha can that was parka? here was aff whita. it a waa exactly ?n th& calor exactly the calar o? the 5 ane amt hara an? it was dirtyv I remember seeing ?irt 6 an it.? 7 Ba you remember giving that answer? a Yesg I 9 Q. And that i3 your recaliectian? 10 A. 'Yeah. 11 Q. Okay. in fact yam were Shawn, were you not, l?m 12 ghawing ymu Bwa ymu were ahawn a gictura c? ?hi? car by 13 the wage yam not? 14 A. Yaa. 15 Q1 Ana yam Said that as yau laake? at that picture? yam 16 aai? th?t wasu?: the car; di?n?t yea? 1? Yaay I ?16. 18 Q. Thank yam? 19 Gmwhum. 28 in factg yam tul? tha authmritias that the car 21 you saw that night was ligh?$r in color an? smallaz? 32 Ag Smallex than that car? 23 Q. Than that car. 24 A1 Yes. 25 You have to The mad 15 mat taken dawn. FRANCIHE C. (21$)575w6112 w?aw?Wme?'W WVW Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 71 of 170. PageID#: 12274 Graf 6:033 1457 A, I?m aarry? 2 Bi? yam anawer? 3 Yam; I aid? 4 I?m getting 3a deaf, 1 aun?t hear anything anyway? 5 MR. KUNETLERS Maw, may 3 just have a 5 Ju?ga? I may have a?e mare araau (Biscua?imn had af? the recor?g} 8 MR. 9 Q. Haw; my lag: area. I will aSk yam if you recall giving 1a tha authcritieg a da?criptian which waa a3 fallaws: That 11 tha man yam saw that night was 25 yeara af agep 12 fivaw?aetwaight inchag talig 189 km 209 pwunds and ha& 13 black hair? 14 Au Umwhum (witnegs no?ding haa? affirmativelyai 15 Q. Di? you anawer? 15 A. fea? 17 Qkay. 18 (niacussiun baa the recnrd.) 1?5? BY MR. KUNSTLER: 20 ?g 1 thi?k I just have an& mare area. 21 Thaxe was ona athar thing 0r cther things yam 22 noticed abaut this @ersana I think yen gai? he wag weaxing 23 a black laathar jacket; Yam recall that? 24 Yeas 2E Qn Ra? that that jacket was apan. FRANCINE Ca SALOPEK, (216)575m0112 m?W_um?? W.W Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 72 of 170. PagelD 12275 Graf Crass 1&68 1 A. 993$ 2 That?a haw yum could Saa the tea ghirt? 3 A. Yes, Q. Shay. An? tha jaaket was not really a haavy jamk?t: 5 it wa$ a light jacket? A. Yaah; it wag ligh?weightg ye$e 1? Qa Okay? An? than I thi?k yam said lastly that aha thing 8 that yam noticad very clearly was a chain hanging dawn: do 9 ymu remember th?t? 10 A. Yasa 11 Q. ?nd that aaught your atte?ti$n, it mat? 12 Au Yea. 13 Q, it waa a dauble?NQV$r chain, waan?t it? 1% A. I balieve 39y yes. 15 And, in faat, it was a chain that you natiee? becauaa 15 it hit the can, if ysu remamber that? 1? A. I dan?t rwcall that, mag 18 What? 19 I ?an?t racall saying that? 20 I will ask yam if you ramambar ?a wall; I will show 21 yea, an? mayba it will refrash yaur xecallectian. if yau 22 lnak at whare have the rad arrdw yau gee it? Ii I ca& 23 fin? it ?w there it 13? 24 Au Okay. 2$ Q. Just raa? it kw youraelf and $96 if that xefrashes (215)575m0112 Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 73 of 170. PageID 12276 Gra? Gregg 1469 1 yaur raccllectian. 2 (@ausa.) 3 A1 away, Q, Baas that bxing it baak 5 Ag Egan. 6 Q. kn? that waS a pratty lang chain, wasn?t it? 7 a. I ?on?t recall. 3 But it came ?own un?er the jacket, ?i?n?t it? Yam 9 caul? 36$ it? 10 A. 333. Yaa, it ?idchain that was dauble? ?ver, if yau 12 remall? 13 I balievg say yasa 1% ?g And you ?g remall new it hit the when he came ever 18 km the can? 16 As 3 ?on?t r??am?er it hitting the warp man 1? Gkay. But tha u? 18 MR. think that?$ all I have. 19 Thank you very mumh. 26 (Diacaasian had fo the racoraa3 21 That?s all 1 hava, Su?gau 22 Th??k yang Miss Gxa?? 23 2% 25 C. SALQPEK, (315)57?w?llz WW Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 74 of 170. PageID 12277 147B 1 2 BE ME. 3 Q. Miss Graig yam ware askea the qua?tians an 4 examinatian abaut tha ameunt mE-tima that the man waa at 9 the windewg wage yam timing this, ma'am? 6 At Na? 1 ?at. 7 Q. in terms 0E minmtaa and semenda; ha wag th?re as lang 8 a3 it teak him ta an tha evanta yam just ?escxibe?7 9 ER. Ycur Haner m" 13 A. Yes. 11 MR. KUNSTLER: ?w I awn?: think he ought ?g 12 t&?tify? 13 $33 1 ?aliave that was leading? 14 WGGLEY: Satay? 15 BY MR4 WOOLEY: 1% Q. Kunatler use& the texm "gatwaway Mi?s Graf? 17 Bid yam sea anymna get in that may? 18 A. Na, I mate 1% Q. Whig bank is lacata? next ta a hotal? 39 a. Yes, 31 An? how algae t0 the mall? 22 Pretty c1m$eg 23 (Diacusaian had eff tha racard.) 2% BY 25 Eu yau hava any ag ta if that ca: wag FREMCINE C. (215)575u?lla Graf Redirect 1%?1 1 cannaated im any way ta the man yen aaw? Ei? yam eveanything lika that? 3 A. Nag n0, 3 never di&a 4 ?g Kumstla: asked yau same quagtiana abaut the 5 descriptian you gava the paling a?tar this 5 ha?gane?. 7 A. 3&3. a Q. Bi? yam alga sit ?own with a aytist and attempt 9 tb prepare a composite? 1a A. Ya$w 11 Ga E'm gaing ta agk yam ta 190k at GovernmantVS 12 Exhibit 25? Tail u$ if yam recall thiag mm recagniza 13 thi?n 1% A, Yes, I 15 9* What @a yam racmgnize that as? 15 The campwsita that we baa name mg with? 1? Q. Gkay. 18 MR. Ycuz ch?rp I hava nothing 19 further. I wave that this ha a?mithedq 26 RUNSTLER: 3693 it have tha 6e$cription? 21 WGGLEY: Eithar cue, ?an?t aara. 22 mat RUNSTLER: Wall, the ?ne has aha 33 aeacriptive w? 2a MR. WQGLEY: Bu you have an objectian to 25 either? FRANCINE Cu SALGPEE: (215)575~0112 . ?mm-mm. Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 76 of 170. PagelD 12279 1472 1 MR. KUNSTLERs may I hava n0 objaatiany 2 whatsaevgrn But I want ta gat mm 3 MR. Saree Thig ig th? ame. 5 WQGEEY: Yaw gat it? 6 MR. KUNSTLER: ?kay. We havw an abjactim?. 7 MR. WGQLEY: ?athing furthera 3 THE CGURT: A?mitte?o anything further 9 Exam "w 19 (Discua?ion had tha 11 Thank yam, M153 Grafa 12 KURSTLER: Ju?gag juat want ta lack at 13 Qua ?ning. 14 THE CDURT: R11 right? 15 may K?msws??s if I may just have ?ne 16 secan?e 17 THE COEEU: All righta 18 (Disgusainn ha? tha r?car?b) 19 MR. I just have 0mg questian, 29 maybe two. 21 22 23 24 25 FRANCE 3333.32 Cm 21635?5w0112 1%73 1 Ri??lma?l?? 2 BE KUWSTLER: 3 The car that yum ?eacrihed to the yolicag it wag yam wha calle? it tatmad it the "getwaway car"? 5 ?ag, I di?. And aftar thiS inei?entg bath tha Fm: an? aha palice 7 apant sama time with yam ?alking abaut aarsy di?n?t thayg 8 an& ahawing yea the picture? A. Has? l? Su? that I shwwa? you an? ask you ta desaribe the car 11 an? 53 an? 12 A. Y??a 13 MR, That?a all I haveg Jm?ge. 14 @hank yen? M133 Grafu It?s avex, I think. 15 Nothing, nothing further. 15 Than it is. 1? TEE COURT: Yam may step dawna 18' Let me saa caunselp plea$a* 19 I b?liQV$ we naa? thia 0n the racar?. 26 {Bigauasian ha? GEE tha reaard at ai?abar aut 6f 21 the haaring Qf aha jurya) 23 THE All righta 1 ?aa9t have my 23 regular metemrmlagist hare with me. 3% 25 CGURT CLERK: It?$ snowinga FRANCINE Cm SALOPEK, (21535VBM3112 Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 78 of 170. PageID 12281 147% 1 But 1 think the Gaurt can take 2 judicial mating that we axe having a wint?r snaw$term. But 3 I have it from aha at?mrneys that we might get finishe? at 4 3239; 3% as gamn aa we ?ag yam can all hea? fa: wharaver 5 ywu?d like to gas mayba you will want to tell smmabady 5 if they age piaking you up a: samething that mayba it?$ 7 3:39, rather than the austwmary time? 8 I assume yam r?memher my a?monitimn aft?x the number 9 5f timas I?va given it t9 yam, an we will came back at 10 1:15. W?uld that be a gaa? time? 11 MR. WDGLEY: That will be Elna? 12 All xightg Fina, thank you. 13 - a 1% (Lunchean ragesg takenai ?ia??PEKy 13.9me% (2153575w0112 W-W Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 79 of 170. Page D#: 12282 Case: Eu? 1% 11 jg?ancine C. ?alapek Date WE certify t?at tha ?azegaing i3 a correat tranaariyt fram the xeaard mf ptacee?inqs in the abmvewentitled matter? 3*15m91 fficial Ccurt Ra?mrtar g~15~91 Canaan Bate efficial Cgurt Repertar 1475 FRANCENE C. ?215)575~9112 Case: 3:89-cr-00720-JZ Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 80 of 170. PageID 12283 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO WESTERN DIVISION UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff, -vs- Criminal Action STEVEN WAYNE YEE, MARK S. NO. VERDI, JOHN RAY BONDS, Defendants. TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS Proceedings had before the Honorable John W. Potter, and a jury, held on Friday, February 15, 1991, the following proceedings were had, to-Wit: VOLUME Francine C.Salopek. Rose M. Cannon, 1476 1 (1:34 o?clock 2 TEE COURT: I understand thera is a motian in ?3 liming? 4 MR. RUBY: There is, Judge. 5 THE CUURT: Is this an oral w? it?s mat a written 6 mation? 7 MR. RUBY: No, it?& oral. 8 THE COURT: All right.- Go ahaad. 9 MR. KEBY: Thanks. Judge, tha naxt is 10 going to be Sgecial Agent Paul Bennatt is going ta testify 11 about haira amd fibera. 12 MR. I?m sorry, you want him to step out, 13 Ron? 14 MR. RUBY: No, I dan?t think it'$ necessary at all. 15 MR. WOOLEY: Gkayv 16 MR, KUBY: He'$ prepared a Series of visual aide? 17 to make, I guess, this process more aigeatible including, ane 18 that I'm ju$t showing t0 the Court. if it comas into avidencg,j 19 I?m sure it will be numbered? 20 What it aces 1% it has phmtagraph? of four hairs; and I?m 31 referring t? the battom four photographa. One is which is- 22 tha unknown hair from tha green glova. Right a?rosg from it is 23 a clcsawup ?hwtograph of John Bonds' hair, a?d below that is 24 another hea?-hair found in Steven Yea's mar, and another 35 cloaewup ph?to cf John Bond$* hair. 0.0 .LL Ann I nn .Q.UJ bl l-l-Ul-l- ULILUIUJ. 00 fig} 1a 11 12 15 that the?e phwtagrapha leak almost, almost identical? The 4 maximize the similarity between the two hairs. . mialeading aa t0 tha nature of hair idantificatiwn, and I believe Special Agent Bennett when ha testi?ias, is going ta circumstanaea is maka an inclu$i0n, that in fact, this hair cauld hava been John Bonda? hair but the hair mharacteristics .c I O. PngiD #12286 1477 If tha Ceurt wants tn inspect this, what the ?ourt will seat way thay have bean taken, thay have bean-taken in a manner to The with that, Judge, is it gubstantially testi?y that the most that th?y could d0 under these them$elvas don't farm tha basis for per?mnal identi?icationu And what they have acne though viaually ia ta craata chart where the hairs 100k almogt identical, and henca, - truth. i tha governmant sought to an was tw intro?uce i? compariaon two i woul?n?t fool anyba?y because knmwa that you can?t visually! tha mvi?anca is far more camp&lling, that it in fact is. This 13 a exampie 6f a picture not lying but distorting I guass to try to draw an analagy, it would be as if there was bload testimony baing given to an untutmred jury, and what photographs 95 blood smearg that wduld 109k identical. Well, it juat eyahall thege two blomd smeara and make any realistic conclusion? about them, and that kind of avidence waul? be faun& t0 be very misleading to tha jury avmn though, geez, they both look exactly like. Th9? are both ra?, thay?re both smears, that UIUU VI (3 1&78 1 kin? mf thing, and that'g really the same thing that?s going on 3 hare. 3 I hava abgalutaly no obj?ation, of caur$e, to Agent Bennett 4 tagti?ying and explaining what can be done with hair and what 5 aan?t ba=dcna with hair, but I think that the phmto array of the 6 twa hairs is substantially mislea?ing, and I wcul? ask that it" 7 be exaluded. a THE CGURT: Anything? 9 MR. EDGLEY: Yas. Wall, briefly, Your Haney. 10 Mr. Kuby has blurra? two aeparata distinct part5 0f thia 11 . type mf ?vidence togethar for the purpo3as mf his argumant. 12 It*s jugt like in the DNA or the serology. the firgt thing you 13 d0 13 you detarmina congistancyf and the consistency ia ahown 14 and it?s just demonstrated by the phwtos that thay are 15 consi$tent. 16 The teatimany as to rareness is just that, it's ta?timony. 17 7 Special Agent Hammett will nut say that thasa are so rare that 18 2 it's anything more than jU$t being wonsistant with each cther. 19 Ha*3 net going to say that but he aertainly ia antitled to 20 visually depict for the jury the firat prong of what ha'g 21 testifying t9 and that i? in fact that they are eonsistent. Th? -23 . photo helpg the jury undaratand that. It mat mimlead the 23 jury as to the pawer m? that match. His testimony a% to tha 24 power of matmh has nothing to ?o with theae phmtos and 25 that'g what he?a blurring here, Your Honor* 1&79 1 It?a lika we put the DNA autorada up an? you on cauld gee 2 the match and that was, as you know, as compelling as the jurcr?? 3 theught it wag or didn?t, but than the rarenesa 4 THE ESERT: Excuga me, I ghouldn't intarrupt yam, 5 but how will the agent use the phmtagraphs? 6 WODLEY: Haw will he use ?ham? 7 THE COURT: To help the jury? 8 MR. WOOLEY: Pardon ma? 9 THE cava: Well, he?s going to hol? them up and gay 10 you can ?ea thi$ and you aan ?ee that? 11 MR. WOOLEY: What ha?s gaing to do is that he heated: 12 . cartain microgcopic examinaticns of tha hair an? he fmun? tham 13 1 to be consigtant and that he prepare? phwtographg based on that 14 examinatiwn, that tn damanstrat? the consistancy. 15 And ?hen I will ask him ?pat is the gignificanca of the 16 fact they are consi$tent aha Ruby thinka that just becauga 17 tha photoa are there the jurors are net gaing ta liaten to that 18 and they are going to ba misled to thinking they had ta be the 19 game hair, but he's not gging to say that. 20 THE CQURT: Kaine going to point to the phatograph 31 and say you can 538 here or you can see thera or what? 22 MR. WOOLEY: Yaah, I balieva he 13. Amtually I 23 i haven?t Suripted it. 24 THE CGURT: I realize yen haven't scriptad it but you? 35 must knew smmething about this witnass. Cas?' nnr? 404 Filed: (19/19/91 86 Of170. 12289 1480 1 MR. WQGLEY: Yeah, a little bit. 2 THE COURT: If he's gaing to use it to demanstrate 3 similaritiea, that'g Que thing, but if ha?s just going ta hal? 4 it up, that's anatherq 5 MR. WOOLEY: N0. He'a going to use it to 6 ?amonatrate aimilaritias, same may yau uga the autorads ta 7 to d$m0nstrata tha DNA evidence. 8 MR. KUEY: Ju?ga, I think tha fact that he'? gaing, 9 to do that makes thia motion in my viaw mare aompelling rathar 10 than less campalling haeause indeed I have blurred theaa 11 thinga and I think of necasaity they ara bluxry. 13 The government is introducing a photograph which haa a 13 visual appeal which is sub?tantially migleading and it?s going 14 tm be substantially mialaading visually in light of tha 15 tastimmny that?a being affarad and that?s why I want it exclu?ej 16 undar $03. 17 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to lat it came. 18 MR. Thank yen, Your Hanor. 19 THE COURT: Can we get the jury? 20 You can gave your objection, of course. 21 (Theraupon, the jury WES brought into tha courtroom and the 22 fallowing proaeedingw were had.) 23 MR. WOOLEY: Government malls Paul Bennatt. 24 35 Theraupmn, the Government callad a3 a witnega, PABL 1481 1 ARTHUR BENNETT who, having be?n iirst duly awarn, ta?tified on 2 . math 3 3 DIRECT EXAMINATION 4 BY MR . Can yam plea$a state ymur full name spelling your laat 6 name ?ar the Cmurt Reporter? 7 A My name is Paul Arthur Bennett. The last hame is gpaliad 8 B~a~n?n?e~t~t. 9 Haw are yum employed, Mr. Bennett? 10 A I?m a Special Agent with the Faderal Bureau mi 11 Inveatigation. 12 9 And how have ymu been an agent with the 13 A For approximately eightwandwa?half years. 14 What is your aurrent assignment in the buraau, gir? 15 A . X?m assigne? to the Labqiatory DiviSicn and within that 16 divisicn I work with Hairg ani Fibers Unit. 1? - Haw long haVe yau been assignad to the Hair and Fiber 18 Unit? 19 A For a little over fiva years. 26 can yau dascribe far ua, for the jury, your training and 21 background ag it relates to your werk in the Hair a?d Fibers 22 Unit? 23 1 A Cartainly. Upon being aasignad to the Laboratary 34 Division, I recaived one year of comprehensive trainingw This ?5 txaining aonsisted mf formalized training at Quantico,_ w.m Case" Dnr? 404 tiled; n9/19/91 89 Of 170_ DonolD 10001 ?uupl 1482 Virginia FBI acadamy. In ad?ition, during my year of training, I underwent a sariea af practical anaminatimnS ragar?ing the examination an? comparison 0f hairs an? taxtile fibers. A150 while in training, I worke? cases un?er the direct supervi?ian of the axpariemaed agants in the Haira an? Fibers Unit and I read availabla literatura in tha field. After aucceasfully completing a number of oral certifiaatian baaxds, I was certified as a hair and fihar examiner by the FBI. Since becoming qualifi?d as a hair an? fiber @xaminer, I have had oppartunity t0 attend twa Short coursas that were offered by tha Callega of Taxtilas at carolina State Univarsity in Raleigh, Earth Carolina. Qua 0f thasa shart caursas dealt with color maa3urement, molar machina matching. The other dealt with the ?yeing and fini?hing fundamentalg of textile materiala. Agent Bannatt, do you also have teaching responsibilitiaa with resyect t0 th& analygis of hairs an? fiber5? A Yes. Occasiwnally I'm walled upon ta assist in the teaching of the hair and fiber swhool that's put on mnce a year at tha Quantica, Virginia, FBI Academy. Can ymu tell the jury approximately how many times in your carear you have ma?a aamparisons of a known crigin ts fibara of a questioned arigin they were 1483 1 consistent? 2 I have compared at itast tans at thwusands of ttxtile 3 I fibers ta each mther. 4 1 Haw abmut with respect ta hair, same question? 5 i A Say thousands and thousands. 6 i Have yau praviuusly taatifiad and been qualified as an 7 axpert with respect to examining haira and fibers in criminal 8 eases? 9 A Yes, many times. 10 About haw many time% have you testified? 11 A I have testified as a hair and fiber extert 49 times 12 previougly and approximataly 20 states located throughout tha 13 i United Statag, the Di$triet of Cwlumhia, and in the Virgin 14 islands, St. Thomas an? St. Broix. 15 i Agant Bennett, let's fogyt now if we can an hair 16 axaminatiun underatanding that we are lacking at a comparisan ofj 17 a hair of a known Origin tm hair of a questione? origin. Can 18 7 you describe for the jury. plaasa, basica at hair 19 a examination? 20 A The reason that hair axaminationa are conducte? is 21 ta determina whether Gr not an indivi?ual caul? have came intc 22 contact with another individual through the transfer through the 23 . dapO$iting af hairs. Tha hairs at Qur heaa an& other parts of 24 or bodies are congtantly being Shred. In a?dition, Wham thare?s a Eituation whera theta i? Cas?- q-Ro-r?r-nmvn-Jz Doc 494 Filed: 02/10/0 Wm- .Qn 17H Donoln 1000?) vv _I_l v. I uupll?I II. Vlv?I- VI 1484 1 contact with these individuals, it is a poasible that hairs he 2 foraibly remcvad an? transferrad to tha mlathing?mf anathar 3 individual or he an object that may have been used as a weapon 4 or theaa hair? may fall to tha grmund. They would ha thesa 5 hairg that would look at in tha debris that ha$ been removed 6 fram a particular victim Gr sugpect's clothing in tha FBI 7 laboratory or in the debris that's bean callected at a mrime 8 sc?ne.hy the polica investigatars t0 determine whather wr not 9 can masociate these hairs with or thase hairs from 10 a particular victim mr snapect. 11 You?ra looking for aanaistency, is that carrect? 12 A yes. Ultimately I'm going to be camparing the microscopic 13 aharactaristica in hair. 14 And you mentioned microscopic comparison. Are there 15 varioue What 9f the tools ana instrumentg ?o ymu use to 16 do thia? 17 A Well, let me start by saying that there are two types mf 18 evidanca received in the FBI first type of 1? evidence is raferrad t9 as queationed evidanca.. 20 an the exam lat's say a $hirt is received in the FBI 21 laboratary. New, initially there may be many furma of tvace 22 aviaence, and by trace evidance. might be hairs, might be 23 'fibars, might hm flakes of metal, piaces of glass. soil, naarly 34 anything coul? be on an object when it?a raceived in the 25 laboratory. Cask Doc 49/! Fi!ed: 91 0? 170. .D 1G 11 12 1485 Thig trace avi?ence is removed fram a particular article ?La prmcess ra?erred to a& Scraping. Tha way this 13 dame in axticles are artiales are taken a inte a scraping room. If yam could look inte a geraping roam you will find that there are very faw furniahings in that room. There is a large table. Above thig table is a large adjugtable matal xack and it?a poa$ible to raise an& lower this matal rack depending upcn i the siza 0f the artiala that is about to be acrapad. It coul? be raised to accommodate large itams such as blankets or carpet,. and it cauld ha lmwered to accommedate a smaller itam auah as a shirt. Before the.scraping process bagins, on the table top placed a clean sheet of butcher papar. This article is than suspended fram this adjustable rack and than using an ordinary metal kitchen spatula very much like you Would ice a cake with, .3 all 0f the loasaly a?hered eviaanca, be it hairs, fibera, piacag? of metal again is $crapma this particular itam. Thia fallan trace evidence is referrad ta as dabria. When i the ?craping process is completed, thia ?ebris is a?rape? together, it is cullectea and it is placad in a plastic pillboxes. The?a pillbexag are carefully i?antified with the lahmratmry number of the cage, the speciman numbar which can i identify that's a particular item, in this case a shirt, and alga my initials are placed on that pillbax. Later this pillbox i8 taken into the rmom where my Cas?' 494 Filed: 02/19/91 92 Cf170. 10 11 12 1485 micrcacapea are located and the hairs 0r fibers that are present in that pilibbx are then ramnved. Theaa hairs are maunte? on glaas microswwpe slide$. Thega ali?es are also carefully i?wntified with a laboratmry number. the ?pecimenlnumbar and with my initiala. New, this brings ua ta the Seaond ty?e oi evidence that's recaive? in the FBI laboratory. This is rafarre? to as known evidance. Far example, head hairs from Hahn Doe. I know they're head haira. I know they're ?ram thi? particular in?ivi?ual. Tha?a hairs are also mounted on glag? microsacpe eliaes whiah are labeia? just lika the questioned slidesThen the camparigan prmcass would begin. Let?s assumg that ?.this shirt that I have bean talking about belongs to a victim. In tha laboratmry, I hav& recaived known head hairs from the victim. I have alga racaived known head hairs the suspect. The aebris that?s baan remmva? from this victim?s items I will then begin examining he find out whether or not there ceuid be hair? presant in that debria like thoae of a suapect. When I find the hair that lookg like the suapact?a hair, what I than da ia use an instrument that i? raferred to as a campariaon light microacopa, and what that ii, it is raally two miaros?cpag very much like some of you may have used in high school er college bialogy, two that have been jaine? togethar with an optical bridga. 10 11 '12 . It allows me to nee both during the examination The beauty of the inetrument is I can look at two slides 1 so doing, I can do this eimultaneouely an& I een carefully in that queetione? hair an? all of the mieroeoopie ohareoteristioe that are present in that known hair. 1487 At the top of this optical bridge ie a binocular headset. simultaneouely. On one side of the microscope I'm going to be looking at the questioned heir. Go the other side, I'm going to be looking at the slide from whioh have been mounted the known hairs. In compare_a11 of the microscopic oheraoterietioe that are If ?aring this comparison I detect di?ferencee in the 13 14 15 16 hair, I woul? conclude that that questioned hair did not originate ?rem the indivi?ual who was the source of thoee known - heire. microeeopio characteristics of the questioned heirs and the 5 known heire are the eeme, I would eonolude that that questione? heir could have originated from the individual Who wee the . source of thoee known heirs. the individual who was the source of those known heirs or it originated from another in?ividuel in the same ratio group whose- mioroeoopie ohareeterietios of the questioned hair and the known :51: . .. . .. On the other hand, should my oomperieon reveal that those I can state thie another way. That heir aid originate from\ heirs exhibit the exeot same microeoopio characterie?ice and 1&83 1 arrangement 6f thcge characteristics. 2 Base? an my experianca in the laboratory, it 15 Very rara 3 wharain a situation is encountered such that hair from two a I differant individualm are an alike that it'a mat pegsibla t0 5 differentiate them micrasaopically. What I?m saying i? hairs 6 I Exam different individuals look different. 7 However, I wculd lika t0 add thia wor? of ?autian. Hair 8 ammparisons do constitute a basia for abaolute pergonal 9 identificatian. Lat me axplain it thia way. 10 1 A fingerprint 13 a piece of evidence that hag haan madg by: 11 i one person and only by that one person. Thare have been rare 12 ingtancas with respect to hairs such that hairs from twa 13 different individuals are so alike that they cannat be 14 miormacopically differentiated but that is a very rare 15 situation. The bottom line is haira from ?ifferant individual? 16 look different. 17 i Agent Bennett, without going over in the same detail, whan 13 you then turn to look at fibers".r I would like quas?imna abmut fibar analysis. When you talk abaut fibar?, 20 1 just what materials are yen talking about? Q1 A With rmapact t0 textile fibera that are faund in tha 32 aompcaition in many objemta that are foun? in our environment, 23 tha clothing that we wear. carpating, rugs. blankets, many 24 articles in mar anvironment are ma?a oi textile fibers that hav? a5 been spun ar twisted into yarng. These yarns have then bean m-W 1&8? 1 Spun or knitted into vaxious fabri?s, garm?nts and what not, an&' 2 it would be the fibars that have ?w that are prasent in the 3 debris that?s bean removed from a parson?s clathing that?s been 4 received at tha FBI labmratary or tha fibara fouhd in the ?ebris; 8 that?s been collectea fram the crime scans by police 5 investigatars for oompariaon purpc?es. i Okay. A fiber m? if I rub my co&b on the finer, I could 3 3 dislm?ga some of the fibara tram my Goat ante tha floor or the 9 floor vicewveraa? 10 A Yas. 11 Okay. 12 3 A Yas. 13 ?When two objectg come into contact with eaah athar, it is 14 possibla that the fiberg found in the campositicn of thege 15 particular objects may break apd dislo?ge? 16 i A They may trans?er. I 17 What are the major typag 0f fibers that wa find in our 13 sociaty? 19 i A Wham I leak at a fiber, I first 0f all determine whether 20 ?w which of the faur major catagories of taxtile fibars that 31 fiber belongs ta. And #ary quickly lat me describe the four 22 categarias bf textile fibera. 33 Tha firat categary of textile fibers includes those taxtile? 24 fibers of a?imal origin. Example of this would be weal hairs 25 from shaep, caahmera hairs fram tha ca?hmera goat. Silk Case Doc 49/! Filed: 96 of 170. Pa I 1490 1 filamente ffem the eilkwerm, just t0 mentien a few. 2 Even considering weal fibers which are fairly commen 3 fibers, the weal production of weal fibers in the United States: a currently accounts far only one garment cf the betel textile 5 fibers manufactured and pro?uced in the United States. 5 What do the other 98 perceut censiet ef in bread 7 categories, 8 A The majority cf thoee weuld be foun? in the fcurth 9 category ef textile fibers, the menmade fibere, and the other 10 Would be the vegetable fiber category whieh I weuld like t0 tel? 11 ycu abcut real quickly. 1? Sure. 13 A The eecond categery ie these fibers of vegetable origin. 14\ A chief example would be eotton ?ibere. Anether example would 15 he wringy fibers which ie the fiber that we're more and 16 more of in the FBI laboratory, eepeeially with the advent of 17 trade with the People's Republic of China. 18 I There are many other natural fibere such ae jute! hemp, 19 sisal. A lot of these fibers that weuld have various industrief 20 applications may be fauna in various hackinge, in the backing of 21 carpete like weuld be feund in a weleeme met, that sort 0f 22 thing. 33 The third major category of textile fibers are fibers of 24 mineral origin. Example wwuld be asbestos fibers en? fibers are very eeldcm feund in the eempoeition 10 11 12 1&91 SE hougahold abjectsu Asbestas iibera, a5 yam knaw, are a health threat, therafura. theae fibars ara vary saldom in tha FBI labmratmxy in the compmsition of itema received there wr_ in the debria a parson;s elothing. This brings us ta the faurth aategary mf textile fibers a whiah are the manma?e fibers. Considering tha mammade fibers, and they dc account fer roughly 75 percent of all tha textila fibera produced in the United States taday, there are gix common. . generic classifications of textile fibers that are regularly ween-by me in the FBI laburatmry. I'm going t0 name thesa 31x generic classifiaationa cf - fibers and I believe that these names would ha familiar toalmost all 9f you. These would be acetate, acrylic, olefin, polyester and xayen fibars. Cmnsidaring jugt thasa grmups that I have mentionad, mp- there are ovar 1,000 diffarant Elbar typag that can ha microscopically dif?erentiate? fram each other. By fibar typay I mean a fiber that has a particular mhemical compcsitian. It's haen manu?actured intm a particular . size. It hag a particular ghape,?cantains a cartain amaunt of 4 various additives and it's been processad in a certain way. Considering tha numbar mf textile fibar manufacturers 7 located thxoughout tha warl&, there ara currently over a thousand different fibara that can be differentiatad ?rcm each ether becauaa they might have a different'size, shape. The Cas?: Dnr? AQA Filpd- 07/10/01 QR 0f 1__70_ PagelD 12301 10 11 1492 additives that they contain ara ?ifferen? or tha proc?ssing affact$ that are apparently an that fiber are diffarent. Haw, when dolor 13 a?ded to textile fibers, it is passible to literally di?tinguish thousan?w and thmusands 0f textilm fibers from each other. Let me dascribe briefly why this is. Available to the people in the textila fiber indu$try are 2,009 to 2,500 different commercial ayes, and whe? a fiber is dyed, very often tha fibers receive a treatment or a dye formulation is used which wauld a mixture of these 2,569 diffarent dyaa. Lat's asguma that Saars brings ant a new fall fashion. Ita competitors may be J. C. Penny or Mantgomary War?, they this and they daaide we lika that calor, we believe it will sell and? they tell their people wa would 11kg you to produce the same color that the pample at $aar$ hava use?. It is nut managsary for the paople at War??s t0 use the Exact same dye formulatimn that the people at Saars used. ?erhaps the people at Searg, their chamiat may have gone to the shelf and thaw gay, okay, we'll taka five buckets o? No. 1, five bucketa m? dye No. 10 and we?ll mix them tmgether. We'll gat a beautiful red color. Agant B?nnett that?g out of a pos3ihle of 2,000, 2,300 commercially available dyes, 1% that correct? A Yea, that's correct. Lat ma jugt atap yau there to make aura that I know 1493 1 semething. An? when you d0 fibar comparis?na than, a0 you 190k 2 - for abaolutg campositiwns of dyea or do yam lock to sea if a 3 particular fiber has bagn dyed in a way that?g camparatively 4 consistent with another fiber? 5 A The questione? ?ibars mr known fibers will be examined to detarmina whether or mat they have baan dyad the game way; What-3 7 5 I'm trying t0 say 13 that manufacturers sal?mm, if ever, will 8 duplicate the dye formulations for the simple reaaon that the 9 sama colar may be pro?uce? many differant waya using all kin? of? 10 differant combinatiwns. . 11 The bottam line is there is an anormmu? variaty 0f textile 12 fibera that may be found in the comycsition of clothing, of 13 carpets. Theae fibers can be aiatingui?had from[ 14 each othar, and each particular cclored fiber type then would 15 an extramely Email pgrcantaga of all tha many tens 0f 16 thousands 0f differant aolore? fibers in existence. 1? i Gkay. And Wham you lack than ?or campmrative purposes at 13 fibers, you.1oak fer comparison as to type and camparison as he 19 dye farmulationgy is that correct? 36 A Yas. that's correct. I?m going ha ha comparing the 21 . migragcapic charactaristics and the optical propertiea. 22 Did you perform hair comparisan in this case here, Agant 23 3 Bennett? 24 A Ye?, I did. 25 I In connection with that effort, warm yuu Submitte? to your? 1494 1 laboratory the knewn head hairs of John Ray Banda? 2 A Yes, I wa$w 3 ASK yau t0 leak at Exhibit No. 20 and t?ll if ynu 4 recognize that? 5 A Yas, I do. 6 Okay. Ana what do you recognize that 33? 7 A It was represente& to-m? as containing the known head 8 hairs 5f ?ha dafen?ant, John Ray Ronda. 3 All right. Did ymu campare those haad hairs to 18 hairs which yam fauna cn'm graen gleVe? 11 A Yes, I did. 12 I would like ta sham you-what we have admittad into 13 evi?ence as Government's Exhibit 14 and aak yeu if you recognize 1% that, sir? $5 A Yas. I do. 16 That's a graen glove that you fauna ona 0f the$a lom?e 17 hairg an you have been deacribing to us 18 A Yes, I did. 19 And tha way in which the hair was taken off glwve yau' 26 hava degcribad to ug he?ora, is that cerreat? 21 A I ?es. It wmuld have been acrape? that glova. 22 Can ymu tell us, sir, when you did your analysis, the 23 comparative analysis o?'the known haad hairs af John Ray Bonds 24 to the head hair found on hi5 glova, what were yaur findingS? 25 A The head haix found on thiS glava axhibitg tha ?ama Case: nn?In nn I-x? I 434 ULILUIUJ. J.UJ.U I 170. PageiD 12304 1495 1 microscopic characteristics as the known head hairs from the 2 Dafanaant Jahn Ray Banda, thereforef I concluded that this head 3 hair could hava originata& from Jahn Ray Bonds. 4 7.9 All right. I will agk you in a minute naw, let me just' 5 ~w aid you aompare the known hea? hair of Mr. Honda to anether 6 quagtioned speciman of head hair in thia case? 7 A Yea, ?id. 3 De yau reaall how you obtainad the other quastioned 9 apeaiman? 10 A Yes. I vacuumed a vahiala. 11 And that ~w wauid that have bean Mr. Yae's vahicle? 12 i A Yas, it was. 13 You were preaent during a search Of that vehiale, is that 14 correct? 15 A That's carrect. 16 i And vacuuming, 13 that way in which gomeona that applies 1? yaur tra?e mauld whack 1003a debxis something like a car? 18 A Yes, it certainly is. 19 All right. Let ma ask yum t9 leak at what we?ve marked 20 i but not yet identifiad or mdmitta? in evi?enae as Government'g 21 Exhibits 35A and 353, tell us if you remognize those? 22 A Yes, I rammgniza bath of themm 23 And what are they? 24 A A Government Exhibit 35A ara vacuum sweapings that wexe 25? removed from the vehicle belenging to Staven Yee taken from the Case 1496 1 right rear gid? af that vehicla+ 2 vaarmment Exhibit 353 alsa are the vacuum sweepinga that 3 I were :emcved by me tha vehiala belonging to the Be?endant 4 Steven Yea from tha laft front portian of that vahicle. 5 Okay* Did you fin? a head hair within those vacuum 6 sweapingss that yam ultimately datarmined was consistent with the head hair of John Ray Bon?s? {43 A Yes, I did find a head hair in Guvarnment Exhibit 35A. 9 And fram where in tha vahicla di? you mbtain that 10 I hair, air? 11 3 A Thi? was from the right rear partion of that vehicle. 12 i Okay? Right wmuld changa dep&nding where we're Standing. 13 is that the passenger side or the driver?s side? 14 . A This would be tha passengar?s Side of the mar. 15 And your findings with raspaat to year camparativa 16 analysis of tha known head hairs a? Mr. Bands and a que?tion 17 ?rom the right rear paasenger compartment of Mr. Yee's car? 18 Yes. This head hair fauna in the right raar portian of 19 i the vehicle exhibits the same characteristics a& the 20_' knawn heaa hairs from the Defendant John Ray Bonds. there?mxe, I 21 concluded that this head hair aould have originated from John 22 Ray Bonds? I 23 Agent Bennett, did you prepara same visual aides far court 24 today showing the results of these head hair analysis? 25 I A Yes, I did. . . . . Case In nn nn?Inn llf?ll l?'I I AA AA AA 42:74- ULILUIUJ. J.UJ ngiD 14.12306 C) 1497 I wonder if yam could give me a hand getting them up an& a 3 maybe we can set them up and explain ta tha jury what manually 3 ymu saw. Incidentally, while I'm ?oing this, let ma agk you a this quemtion. 5 Were yau also submitted 0thar known head hairs w? 6 involved in thia aase, including Mr. Verdi, Mr. Yea, an? the 7 1 head hair of tha victim, Mr. Hartlaub? 8 A Yes, was. 9 i 9 Having aaid that, if you would use this easal and explain 10 I to the jury the visual ai?g that you prepara?? 11 MR, WGOLEY: Your Hanor, I will get around t9 12 marking them in a moment, but they will all be markad as Exhibit: 13 39 an? t?an A, and depending What I have picturad for us here are phetomicrographs 15 takan thrcugh a microscope takgn with a .35 millimeter camera 16 mountad on the micrmsucpa and ?as 250 magnification tha 17 phmtomicrographs have bean taken of three regions of the hair 18 from all faur individuala in thia instance. 19 I will jugt bagin an thia $163. The prnximal area of the 20 . hair is the porti?n lacated near the rant and of the hair, 31 ramadiml portion would refer ta the mid *w middle area 0f the 32 hair shaft, and the distal and would refer to the tip of the 23 hair shaft. 24 You can see acmetimaa thara ia a change in the migrm?aopia apbearance of a haix. There is a range sf characteristics that 1&98 1 must be acaauntsd ?ux by $very hair examiner. Thara is a glight; 2 molar diffarance here at the distal partion from the proximal 3 portimn which gcmatim$s may be aausa& by bleaching ?r a 4 treatment that?a been applied to-a hair. 5 You can sea that tha'micro$aupic characterigtics of the 6 hairg Mr. Var?i are differant than tho3a of the micrmaccpici charactaristics fauna in Mr. Bonds' hair, and the sama is true 8 far Mr. Yae and Mr. Hartlaub?s hair. 9 Again, thare is a very wide range 0f 16 characteristics. I had n9 diffiaulty in distinguishing 11 haira from each ather which goaa right along with the expaxience 127 that I have repeatedly axperianced over and aver again in the 13 laboratory that hairs from dif?erant individuals look ai?ferent 14 baaed on the size, tha shape, tha arrangement of thoge 15 'characteristius that are fauna in the particular hairs? 16 All right. Agent Bannett, thia is ju$t an axampla mf 17 three different pictures 0f the known hairs, this is not a 18 camparismn of questicned gm knuwn 5amp1es, this chart? 19 A That's correct. This just ahmws 20 Okay. 21 7 A that the microscapic charaeteristica presant in the 22 hairs of all four individuals are different. 23 all right. Let?s new turn to the actual two hair 24 comparisona that yau ?eaaribaa that you per?owmed in thia case. 25 We will lack at another chart that we will mark this later as ll 12 149% a part of the Exhibit 39. First of all, orient the jury to whidh part of the chart :they should be leaking at ww let mm gat this cut of hera. All right. That will make it easier. Lat me call ymur attentian first t0 pictures that were takan?of tha Defan?ant Jahn Ray Bon?w? hair. Ag?ihg I have pictured two different ahmts cf the photomicrogyaphs. These are' E_pictures of hairg found in his known hair atandard. These hairsi I were mounted on the micrasccpe sli?es, and than using a camera mounted on a microscope, pimtures were taken of these hairs. :w I would lika to call yaur attention to the haad hair that 3 was taken the green glove. I believa it was Government Exhibit 14 and a picture of this wag alse takent You can see 3 for ymurgelf that the microacuyic characteristics are the same. They appear to be very Similapf That ig because the miaroscopic: - characteriatics ara the same. Again, the hair that was fauna in the vacuum sweepings ?30m. Stevan Yee'? vehicle, you can camp?re tha miarosaopi? aharaaterigtiaa of this hair with the miarascopic . characteristics again found in the Defendant John Ray Bandg? hair. i ThiS is a known, 13 that corract? A That is a known hair, and again, you can 5&3 that these ara the same, thexefore, I concludad that theaa quastianmd hairs, because the micrescopic characteri$ties ara the same, Case? . rm; 17 Dnr? AQA Filnd- 07/1 0/91 106 0f170_ pagegg 17+: 12309 1506 1 that these hairs coul? have come fram the Defendant John Ray 2 Bonds? 3 i Ok?y. Tha?k you. I mauld lika to return new to the fiber 4 compariaons that ycu performed in thig ea$e, if yeu can. First 5 cf all, let?s talk about tha grean glova, Did ynu analyze the 8 fiberg that make up that graan glova for ?ne purpoaas 0f 7 comparing them ta wther lamae fibers found in mther itama in 8 connection with this cage? 9 A ?Yam, I did. 10 Can you tell the jury what that glove is made out of? 11 A There are in the composition of thia Government Exhibit 14 12 wool fibers. There's alga a fiber found in the 13 composition of this particular itam. 14 1 It's a bland or blen?? 0f those fibers? is that corract? 15 yes, it is. 16 Would bath the wwol and fibars be aqually likely 17 ta disladg? themselves onto anether item? 18 A Na. In my opinimn the weal fibers woul? be the weaker of 19 the fibera, and if there wag a transfer, it could b9 mora likaly 20 to be the weaker fiber that would braak, that being the wool. 21 Did you aompara green wwol fibera in that glove to fibers. 22 that wera reumvare? by the m?ans that you described t0 us 23 earliar, 0n various other itams in awnnection with this Gaga? 24 A Yes, I did. 25 I would like take a secend to identify the items firat if 1561 i you can. Let me anew you what we have marked and admitted intc 2 evidanae as Gsvernmant Exhibit 53 which is tha bragg catcher and: 3 tap$ from the mur?ar weapon, ask if you reaognize that? 4 i Yea, I do. 5 And di? you recover fib3r$ off 0f that item that you 6 preparad with the fibers that make up that wmol glove? A Yea, I di?. 8 f'Q Ycu &1ready have in front of you the vacuum sweapingg from' 9 Steven Yea's mar. Did you compare fibers fauna in the sweepings; 10_ to fibera-feund in that wool glove? 11 A Yas, I did. 12 I would ask you he lack at what's in evidence as 13 Government Exhibit 31, a shirt xecovered ?rom the hema of 14 Defamdant Mark Verdi and aak you the same question? with respect' l5 ta that item? 16 A I can reccgnize it and,?yas. I aid a ammparison mf fibera 17 found in tha ?ebris that was removed ?ram this item. 18 Let's ?iacuss your findings now. With reapect to lease 19 fibers you fauna on the brass catcher andfox tape, what were 20 your findings with reapact to whathar thosa fibera wera 21 c?nsistent with having mriginate? from that green glove? 22 A Yag. In tha dabris ?w 23 THE CGURT: Excuaa me. Could you move are you 24 gaing to use that mm 25 MR. WOOLEY: I'm going tn use it in a aeaond. You Case: 494 Filed: 02/19/91 108 Cf170. 1W. v? 1 want ta mave tha pmdium so you wan age? 2 THE CGURT: Why don't yam stand ovar thera an I ?an 3 you. You can mava the pa?ium, too. 4 MR. WGOLEY: Thank you. 5 A In the debris that was rameva? from the tap% attaahad to 6 the plaatic bag, I feund a graan wool fibar. ThiS graen ?7 fiber exhibits the same microacopic characterigtias and optical 8 prcpertia$ aa the green wnal fibers found in compogition of tha 9 Government Exhibit 14 glmve. Accordingly, I woncluded that this 10 fiber faun? an tha brass aatwher was cansistant with having 11 originated ?rom thia glove. 12 Qkay. ?onsiat?nt in termg of things you described for, 13 us earlier in terms of ww-cut of the posaihle dye aombinations, 14 it was dyed in a Similar manner? 15 A ?es. 16 And it is consistent in tarms of it$ type, i& that 1? corract? 18 A ?That?s cmrrawt. 19 What about the loose fibers in Mr. Yae's car the 20 vacuum aweepings? 21 A With respect to Governmant Exhibit 35A, I found a green 22 waal fiber.r This green wool fiber Exhibits tha game miaroacopic 23 characteristics and optical propertiea as the green fibera? 24 found in the ccmposition cf vaernment Exhibit 14, therefore, I 35 aoncluded that this green wool fiber was alsb consi?tant with H-m wv Doc 494 Fi!ed: O2/lv/91 109 Cf170 12312 1503 1 having ariginated this glovew 2 Agent Bennett, what abmut the fibaxs am Mr. Verdi?s ?nirt 3 w? an this shirt from his hmme? 4 A Also in the ?abris that wag ramaved fram Government 5 Exhibit 31, found a green weal fibar that axhibitg the same 6 microscmpiw charaateristics and optical preperties?aa the green 7 fibers found in the compmsition Bf vaernment Exhibit l4. 8 I Again, concluded that this grewn weal fiber was consiatant 9 with having originated Exam the glove. 10 Did ywu also prepare game visuals for us t5 help 11 illustrate that point? 12 1 A Yea, I did. 13 If yam cauld Etap dawn, plea?e, and we could shew you 14 another Series of phatggraphs that we will later mark aa part 15 . the Exhibit 39, and if ymu jugl go ahead and QXplain to the jury' 15 what thasa phatagraphs depict?v 17 A Agalnv with respect to the compariaon pracesm, a small 13 piaca of that glove wag cut and mmunted on a glass micrasqapa 19 glide by me for compari?an purpmses. 20 Tau an the left gide faur piatura$ o? the W001 ?ibera 21 . that wara found in the composition of that green.glmve? Theae 22 were compare& to the green woal fiber fauna on the weapon. 23 A150 tha grean wool fiber fauna on tha shirt from Mark 24 Vardi?s residence. green wool fiber found in Stevan Yaa's 25 vehicle, and another green woml fibar that waa also found in Case: Q-RQ-r?r-nono-Jz DOC 49/! Filed: 110 9* 170. .D I I 1594 1 Stavan Yea'a vehiele* If these appear to be the same cmlor, 2 it?s because they are the same calor micr0$wopically, they are 3 the EQMQ colmrp 4 I ran the$e using an inatrumants we rafar tb aa the 5 micraspactrophctometer to make sure that'g that these ?ibers 6 have bean dyed the aame way? 7 The basis of those results I fauna that they were all dyed. 8 tha sama way. Ac?mrdingly, I then conmludad that each 0f the$el four fibers coul? have criginated ?ram the green glove, 19 Govarnment Exhibit 14. 11 What doag that tell us, if anything! abcut tha likalihmod? 12 that thia grean g10v& came in cantact with the gun, the shirt 13 from Mr. Verai's heme and Mr. Yee?s vehicle? 14 A I believe it's extremely probable that there was cantact 15 batween the glova and the?e items. 16 Did you alam, Agent Bannett, analyza a 10036 fiber m" now; 17 I?m talking about a looae fihar on tha glove it??lf? 18 A Year I did. 19 Qkay. Not tha green fiber but a 10056 fiber that had 20 ladged itself there? 21 A That?s correat. 22 Okay. Can ymu t&11 us what sort 9f camparative analysis 23 yen aid with respect to that fiber and any other evidanae that 24 you ra?overed in this case? 35 A Yea. Found in the debris that was ramuvad from this 1505 1 . glava, i found a brown palyestar fiber. That pclye$ter fihar 2 wam campared by me ta a known aampla taken a mat that wag 3 prement in Victim David Hartlauh'a van. 4 How ?id you get tha Sample from the mat in David 5 Hartlaub?s van? 6 A During the search of that vehicle, I ant t?a fiber aample 7 from the mat mysalf. 8 i Like in Gaga with Mr. Yee's car, you actually mm 9 i actually collecta? that item yaurself? 10 A Veg, I did. 11 An? that's what's before you as Government Exhibit 35? 12 A That's correct. 13 A What sort of canclusions aid you draw, if any, about the 14 A fiber on the glove an? the portimn of the mat in Mr. Hartlaub's 15 van? 15 i A I found that the brown golyestar fiber fauna on the graen 17 I glmve! Government Exhibit 14, axhibits the same microscopic 18 aharacteristics and optical properties as the brown palyagter 19 - ?ibers found in the compogition of the floor mat from the 20 victim's vehicle, Government Exhibit Accordingly, I 21 that this brown polyester fiber found an thi? glove 22 cauld hava originated fram the mat that was present in the 23 victim?s vehicla. 2% One lagt visual ai?a. Did yau prepare a visual aide with re?pemt to this particular comyariawn? Case? nnr? 494 Filed: 02/1v/0 112 Cf170. Pa 10 ll 12 7-- Va. 1506 A Yes, I did. 9 ycu just take a minute and just paint it out t0 the: jury? A I would like tn mall yaur attentimn ta the top two pietures. Theaa are pictures of tha and polyaster fibers. If yum aauld see thasa, they were campargd with respac? t0 &iameter. They have a crosswaactional shape that*s raferre? to a& a delta shapg, a trilabal shapa. They incorporate thia t5 frequently hide ?irt. A139 yum can see some speaa in thera, is the presence of the delusterants that manufacturers will use to cut; down on tha harshnass of a particular aolorThere alga ara small air spaaes that are present praduced? by the pro?e$sing of thia fiber. All cf tha microgccpic charaateristics 0f the ?ibars fauna in th? knawn sample that was cut by me and ultimately a partian Gf that wag mmunted on a glass mi?roscope slide. All af the micrascmpic characteristica were campared to the micraacopia characteristics that ware before in tha brown fiber that was ramoved from tha green glovar Also tha optical propertias wara compared bath in both of thesa ?ibers. Optimal prupertias are compared by me in the laboxatary using an inatrument referre? to a5 a polarized light microscope. Based on the way a beam of polarized light interacts with a fiber enableg me to ?etermina a number wf ?optical propertias, aptiaal propertias of polyesters waul? w?w? Case." - 150? 1 differ from thoae of aarylica and acetatas, at catera. 2 I fauna during that camparisan prmceas that tha mptical 3 prdp?rties were the game. 4 And lastly, I ran a microspacttophotometer womparisom QE 5 A both of these fibers to determine if they had been dyed the same. 6 way. Again, it is possible to graduae the same molar many 7 ?ifferant ways. a it's poaaible that a fiber might hava been made by anothar 9 competitor an? aven though to the it lowks the sama, it may 10 i have baan ?yed differently. 11 With rewmect ta this, aging the microspectrophotometer, I 13 I found that all the microscopic characteristics ara the same, thei 13 aptical propertiea ar& the same an? they will be dya? the same 14 way? Thgrafmre, I manaluded that thia fiber was congistent 15 with having originated fram t?g mat feund'in the victim's 16 vehicle. 1? Okay. Agant Bennett, what conclusian, if any, wan you 13 i draw about the likelihoo? than that~that glava came into contact 19 with the mat in the victim?s vehicle? 20 i A Again, I ?hink there?s the Strong likelihood that this 21 glova came inta ?ontact with that mat that was found in tha 22 . victim's vehicle. 23 . 0kay. 24 MR. WGOLEY: Your Humor, I have no further quastiens. 25 WHY Case". R'RQ?r?r?nn770- 17 404 Filed: 02/1 9/91 11/: of 170 1508 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 MR. WOULEY: qul? you like ma to effar the axhibita 3 now my wait until cross? 4 THE COURT: Why dan't we wait. 5 MR. WOOLEY: Thank you. 5 THE COURT: Are you gming to mead that? 7 MR. RUBY: I think at the very baginning I am, 3m 8 why aom't I just structure the examinatimn SQ wa get them out cf 9 the way. I 10 THE COURT: Any way you wish than. 11 13 CROSS EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. RUBY: 14 Agant Bannatt, gooa aftarnoon. 15 A Gaod a?ternoon. 16 Ymu have baan using the ward ?gama" sevaral times during 17 the cmuxse of yaur direct examination, is that right? 18 A That's worrect. 19 A number of times yam sai? the gremn fiberg depict the 20 same characteristics microsecpically and aptiaally, is that 31 right? 22 A That'a corract. 23 When yen usa the "same," do you mean identical? 24 A Yes. Okay. And am your teatimony is that, in fact, both in 23 - terms of color ana pruparties, that is! ?hapa and 2 aize, all 0f thase fiber$ depicted here are identical? 3 A Yea, that?s correct. 4 9 Okay" ?aw, in fact, when you performed the tgatg on that 5 a micxospectraphctameter is that how it?s prcnounaed? 6 i A That'? correct. 7 i mm ymu in fact got a range of raaulta, aidn't ymuf far 3 ?ifferent fiberg? 9 A That's trug. 10 Dkay. .Sw in fact, it wmuld nut be fair ta say that they 11 light i?entiaally, is that aorramt? 12 i A That?s true. l3 In fact, it waan't identical, thera wag difference 14 i fiber ta fibar, is that right? 15 2 A Yes. 16 i And you made a judgment call tha? this difference was not 17 a significant differencm? 13 A That's cerraat. 19 So in fact, they are not identical at all, simply the 26 differences in your mpinion aren't significant diiferenaes? 21 A It exhibits the sama range of characteristicgu 22 The same range? 23 A Yes. 24 30 the answer to my question 1% nc. in fact, they are not 25 1&Entiaa1, is that correct? Case: Doc 49/! Filed: 02/1 ?91 116 9* 170. ?I?vl I 1510 A Well, there?s no two biological specimens that are exactly. 2 alike. 3 They are net identical? 4 A ?at in that raspect, n9. 5 And yau made a judgment call, didn?t you, that the 6 differences among them were not significant, is that carrect? 7 A That?s aorrect. 8 Okay. Now. with ra?pemt t0 the tape on tha glagtic bag, 9 13 it fair to say that the tape on that bag at 50mg point came .19 in contaw? with green weal cf a color within the range we have 11 descrihe?? 12 A It's possible that it was put there that way. 13 'Well, it in acme way came in contact with green weal, 14 right? 15 A Yes. 15 Ma matter What? 17 A Yea. 18 9 Whether it was this glcve or swme other piece of green 19 weal it, at mnme point, came intw contact with green wool? 20 A Yea. 21 And tha twshirt there cf Mark Verai?m, that blue twwhirt 22 there, that had a graen fiber on it? 23 A That's cmrrect. 24 And that would $ay to you that at smma paint that cama in 25 aantact alga with green woal, i? that right? ww- Case 404 Filed: 02/19/91 117 of 170. agc?)# 12320 1511 A Yos. 3 1 Okay. And you don?t ?w you didn't have any oonoe from 3 2 looking at the fibor whether it woo recently put on there or put a on there a long timo ago, right? 5 A I can?t tell whom a ?ibor came to be put on any particular: 6 . item. 7 - Okay. And with respect to Stovo Yeo?s car, I boliovo 8 there woro-groon wool fibors ?ound in two places? 9 A That?s correct. 10 5 Is that right? And that moans in essence that at some 11 point, somebody who was wearing groom wool or who had some item 2 12 of green wool at some point came into oomtaot with ?tovon Yao?s 13 oar, it woo, in ?aotr in Stovon Yeo?s oar, is that correct? 14 3 That's oorroot, 15 Now, you said that wool Fibero mako?up one percent or 16 approximately one percent of :31 fiboro known. I didn?t catch 17 whioh, was it ono peroont not ono poroont? 13 A Year it is approximately one poroont. 19 But even though, is it fair to say that wool io an 20 extremely common fiber? 21 A I agroo, wool 1o a very common fiber. 22 An? for those of us that live in oold olimatoo, is it fair? 23 - to Say, based on your oxporionoo, that as a fibor export that 24 . virtually ovoryone comes in contact with wool at one time or? 25 another? Case; it: 494 Fi!ed: 02/19/91 118 9*170. v? v1: l?I? I 1512 1 A i?d say that many households havo wool items found in 2 them, yew. 3 Now, 13 it fair to say that in many wayo the signifioonoo o? fiber evidonoo depondo w" withdraw it. Let me remove those 5 for now. 6 Is it fair to that the oignifioonoo of fiber ovidonoo 7 dependo in loogo part or at least in part upon the rarity of tho 8 fiber involved? 9 A In part. 10 In part. 11 A Sure, that's ono aspect of it. 13 There are other aspeoto and we?ll got to those. 13 A Yes; 14 So, for example, if ono markotod opooial type of toot 15 fiber, thoro was ono pair of panta modo with that on the planet 15 earth and you oould got that paix o? panto on? you also found 17 that fiber in oomobody?s home, could you say with a very high 18 dogroo of probability that in foot pants had come in 19 contact with that home} is that correct? 20 A I agree. 21 9 Okay. On the other han?y there are fiboro, are ?horo not{ 22 that are so common that it?s so many are produced that a 23 single match hatwoon ?ihers is almost meaningless? 24 A $63, ouch as white oottono. 25 white ootton, for example? 1513 1 EA Yes. 2 . What about on the fibera, let?s say, in Levi?s blue jeans?; 3 A 3 agree with ycu. 4 Blue cotton. And so if I show yau a pair of what we mail 5 i a known paix cf blue cwttan pants, ?or example. pair of blua 6 dotton Levi's and I gave ycu sweepings from tha hnmes of 7 everybody in this ream, it woul? not ~w it would b3 likely, 8 i would it nut Or at leagt vary poasible, that, in fact, you woul? 9 fina these blue cotton threads in almast averybody's homa? 10 A They are very Gammon, yeamake a repcrt an that, yau would 12 testify, wauld yam net, or you wauld opine that indeed it is 13 aonsistent that the par?on weari?g those pair of pants had bean 14 in the name of ab$olutely evarybody in thim courtraom? 15 i 3 Because a? tha commonality of blue denim fibara, Wm 16 don't evan bothar to campare ghem in the FEI labaratory. 17 I But if you wera a?kea to dc so, tha answer weul? be yea, 18 . thay are cansistent. it would be silly a?tar a faah?an, right? 19 A $es. 20 But indeed you would opina that indgad it?s cmnsistent 21 that thig person wearing thia ona pair of panta had been in 22 averybody alsa?s home? 23 A Yea. 24 Although indeed it would ha far more monsi?tent that these_ 25 fibers originated indepen?ently and in fact that's why you don't Case? DOC 49/! Fi!ed: 02/19/91 120 of 170. 12323 1514 1 even bother to dc the hl?e cotton comparism?? 3 A That?s true. 3 9 Okay. Wha made thaae graen woml fibara? 4 A i don?t kneww 5 Gkay. made the dye 11 6 A I dan?t know. 7 w? for thage graen fibers? Did they use ona dye or a lot 8 9f dyea? I 9 A I ?on't know that. 19 1 Okay. no ymu know the distributiwn area of the fibers? 11 A N9, I dan?t. 12 Gkay. When you say distribution area, is it fair to say 13 "that fibars have a geographical aommonality as it wara? 14 A I think in any manufacturer of any particular item you 15 ?mul? find that they would like to have their particular goods 16 marketed aver a very wide range to have a maximum number cf 17 pecplw buy them. 18 Right. But there are Some fibars mora ?ommon in Qne place 19 than others, is that right? 20 A Probably. 21 Cgrtainly, fax example, green W001 woula be more cummnn in 22 northern Ohio than it would, say, in southern Florida? 23 A I agraa. 24' Okay. And yau dcn't know the distribution.area for these 25 fibar? here? - - . . . . 1515 1 i A No, I donft. 2 5 50 in fact, you have absmlutaly nu idaa haw many items af 3 clothing containing these fibers had been produae?? 4 2 A Nm? I don't. 5 You don't know if it's milliona, billions 0r trillians, do: 6 3 you? 7 A it aoul? be hundreda. thousands, tans of thousands. I 8 i don?t knaw. 9 Ymu hava absolutely n0 idea? 10 - I have no i?aa. 11 Okay. So when you say there's an extremaly high 12 prcbability that the glove came in contact with all of these 13 5 diffarent all ymu'ra raally saying is thare?s an 14 i extremaly high probability that some fabria made 0f grean wool 15 o? this color Gama in contaatlyith all thesa ?ifferant placew, 16 i3 that correct? w? 1? A No, I didn?t say that. 3 said that I heliava it's a very 18 . high prcbability that this glmva came into cmntact with theae 19 items bewausa thay have bean ?yad game way. 30 There may b6 many manufacturers that make graen glmveg just 21 i?like thia, hawever, all at those manufacturera would usa the- 22 same ?ya farmulahion. 23 2 But what ig the dye farmulatiam here? 24 1 A It is the type an? the amount oi thoaa dyes used t0 25 pro?uca a particular calor. (2188131890? 00.720 12 DOC 49/! Fi!ed: 02/19/91 122 Cf'170. PagClD 12325 1516 1 Well, 1et*s start with the name of dya be?ore we g9 ta tha 2 typa and the amaunt. What kind of ?ye was used to praduca that; 3 Galor? 4 A I dan't know the typa af dye. 5 Do you knaw the amaunt of the dya that wag uae?? 6 A I don?t. 7 So you dmn?t know the type ana you don't know the amount?' 3 A Na. I don?t. 9 Gkay. But those are tha factorg that aetermine whether Gr 10 not thiS glove is common ur rare, is that right? 4 11 A Again 12 Is that right, is that what ymu just said? 13 1 No, I didn?t say that. I said that waol fibera are 14 common, however, bacauae manufacturars seldam, if evar, 13 duplicate dye formulationa ugad t0 calar a partiuular textile 16 fiber, I feel that a fihar match than would be significant. 17 But again, you dwm?t know the type of dye? 18 A No, I don't know type 9f ?ya. 19 Don't know the name of tha dye? 20 A NU, dan't. 21 You den?t the mombination, whethar it wag ona dya 0r 22 combination of dyes, is that correct? 23 A That's carreat. 24 9 You ?an?t know who made this? 25 A No, I don?t. Case 3 89 cr 00720 JZ DGC 404 Filed 02/10/01 123 of 170 Page:D 12320 1517 1 1 You don?t know how many were made? 2 A No, I dan?t. 3 Now, when yau testified that these fiber? are cansiatent with having originated what I?m going to refer as to 5 Vermilion glove in tha course of the examination whi?h is that 5 1 green glove in front of you, you have tastifiad that they are 1 congistent with that arigin, is that correat? 8 A That?a carrect. 9 Are you familiar with the term aggraa af 10 scientific certainty? 11 A Yaa. 12 Gkay. And can yau juat briefly say what that can you 13 dafina that? 14 A That tha rm?ults wauld be repxoducable as :0 my findings 15 if leaked at by anathar individual. 16 i 9 Okay. Can ymu say with a reagenable degree mf sciantific 17 certainty that the fibers in Steve Yaa'g car, th? fibers an the 18 tape of the bag did mriginate from tha? glave? 19 3 A No, I can?t gay for cartain that they did. 30 1 You aan?t say with a raagonable degree of Quientific 21 certainty that he did?a?t they cauld 32 have, is that warrant? 23 That?s correct. I?m not certain that they did, but I'm 24 certain that they they cauld have. Eng Yes, they certainly could have? 25 1518 1 A That's correct. 2 Okay? And when you say con3istent, that means would have? 3 A hThat's Garment. 4 9 Now, thaae fibera, these green waol fiber&, 13 it fair to: 5 they represent one match? 6 I?m not aura understand you. 7 Well, you ?mund green wool fibers that mat?hed eaah other. 8 that were cansistent with eaah other ?w 9 That's aorreet. 10 i mm in a number 0f locationa. 13 that corre?t? 11 A That's corract. 12 Qkay. And we have alraady diacussmd that in many respects 13 tha significance of tha.fibera dapanda 0n the rarity or a 1% cammanneas 9f the fibars involvad, i? that right? 15 A That's one m? the aapacts, yea. 16 But thara is anoth?r aapect as wall and that's the number- 17 of ?iffarant matahas betwewn the questionad area and tpe_k?gwn 18 area, is that right? 1? A I'm not sure I understan? you. $0 2 9 Okay. Let me aak it like this. You fin? a piece of blue- le; denim in my hcme and yen also find ane in mourt.? Because of the 22 cammonneas of blue denim, that means ab?olutely nathing to you, 33 is that correct? 24 A That's carreat. 25 . Okay. But if you find a piece of blue denim, o? pink Case Au- nn?I 4n On 17 .LL l?'I I l? O.UJ bl "l'Ul'l' ULILUIUJ1519 1 i acrylic fibar or brown polyester fiber and 0f green wool on ma 2 and you alga find them in the courtrmem in a particular area 3 where I?m alleged to have begun ymu have four 0r five matches, 4 13 that corra?t? 5 A. That?s carrect. 6 . And that would mm givan your EXp$rtime, that would 7 increage the likelihood, would it not, that tha Suspect in famt 8 came intm cantact with the araa involved? 9 A That?? amrrect. 10 Okay. So if there?s two matchas or three_matches or ten 11 matches or 1E0 matcheg, as the number of matche? increasaa, 12 . genarally Speaking raacgnizing there's a lot af diffarances 13 but as tha number of matahes the likalihmmd of the 14 gubjact coming into cantact with the area also increaaes? 15 A I would agraa. ,w 16 Gkay. Yau Eound in ad?fiimn t0 grean wool fibers, did van? 1? i not, yau found another, I think, eight ?ibers on the Vermilian 13 glmva, is that right? 19 A Anather eight fibera? 20 Eight different types of fibers in the ?ebris the 31 Vermilion glove, did you not? 23 A It?$ possible. I would have ta refer to my notea. 23 Okay. Please do, and in the process, I?ll give you brief 34 ?es?riptiens of them. Maybe it will rafreah your memmry. You 35 have already testi?ied, for example, that you ?ound a brown 1520 polyaster fiber, 18 that right? 2 . A That'a correct. 3 5 9 Okay. And yau alao participated in tha search of Steve 4 Yee?s car, i$ that right? 5 A That?s cofraat. 6 An? you cbtained samples of Mark Verdi's glothing, is that 7 right? 8 A- Yea. 9 Okay. And yuu comgarad not to be light about it, ymu 10 campare? like all o? them tagether, right, I mean, because 11 yeu're looking for matchas? 12 A All of tha items were ammpared to the knawn fibers,_yes. 13 So ymu compared the brawn polyester fibar with fibers that 14 yuu ?aund in Stavm?g car and an Mark?a clathing, is that right?? 15 A That?g right. 16 And there was ma match there? 17 A That's carrect. 18 Alsm an the Vermilian glove, tha green glove, yau found a ?9 pink ?alustered'acrylic fiber, is that a fair d?gcxiption mm did 20 yau bring the slidas dawn with you? Woul? it be helpful to 21 refer ta the themselveg? 22 A Well, the fiber's miurascopic siza* I?m not ?ure I cauld 23 see them exactly. 24 Maybe gnu ha? labaled them and viaually ~?.okay, whatever 25 yam find is there, Case- 1521 1 . A I?m mat abla to find in my notes anyplace right where 2 . I found a pink ?elusterad fiber on the green glove. 3 I Where 13 the list af other fibers you fauna in tha 4 . Vermilion glove? Mayba yau can gat that in front of you. 5 A I have no ether list 0f such fibers that I'm aware of. 6 But ?mu'ra ?m yau dm recall that you found other fibers, 7 right? 8 A I'm aura there would be. Debria's removed from nearly any. 9 items. 10 Okay. So yau're aura that there were ~n cpuld there have 11 baen a light blue acrylic fiber? 12 3 A It would have been. 13 Okayv A yellaw false twist hextured ?elyastar fiber, anag- 14 that sound ?amiliar? 15 A No, it dmesn?t. 16 A ?ark blue acrylic fib?r? 17 A It's pagaibla. 18 Wall, yau do recall finding a bu?ah 0E other fibera 19 besides the polyester fiber and the green fibex that the 20 . pr?ae?ution?s mast interested in; you dc recall finaing thosa? 21 A Thare could have been othar fibers there. 22 You recall running them against the fiberg takan from 23 . Steve?s c&r and Mark?s alcthing? 24 i A I don?t recall running any such, though I certainly would Hava been ?w I would have been comparing them t0 the knowns from. 1522 1 i that particular vahicle, yes. 2 - Right. this is important stuff in terms of your 3 analysia, it ymu can come up with multiple matchaai a3 I baliave; 4 yau teatified, that increases the likelihood of making a more .5 - poaitive iaentification. right? 6 I A That's correct. 7 okay. An? as t0 the bagt of yaur racmllectimn, nothing 3 I found on the Vermilicn glove besides thia ?ne gr?en fiber 9 matched anything taken 10 A That is ccrrect. 11 Steve Y?a?m car an? Mark Vardi'a alothing? 12 I A That?3 correct. 13 9 Okay. Now, you alsn tmok Eamplaa, did you not, ~w_or- 1% obtained samplas all of David Hartlaub?s clothing? 15 . A Yea. 16 9 I mean, from jackats dawn tw the socks and whoas, right? 17 A Yea. 18 And you also tack sample& from all part5 of Davi? '19 Hartlaub?s van? 30 2 A That?a cmrreat. 21 And tha reaaon you an that is becauwe ?iffarant penple 22 cauld be ~w shed fibers in different places so you want to covar 23 enough different plawes that you ?an be a3 certain as you can be? 24 ?hat if fibars were there, you will piak them up? 25 . A Yas, that'a aorraatCase ,w nn-Inn 1-1 rx .LL Ann .I J.UJ bl ULILUIUJ. LLU Ul 1523 1 i And you did the same thing with Stave Yea'? car, right? 2 A Yes. 3 Fibers from all over the place? a A Yes. 5 And you axamimed the clothing items that yau were given 6 from Mark Verdi, is that right? 7 A That?s rightthese aamparisons that yam made, is it fair to Say there were scores or hundreds of different fiber 10 campmrisans? 11 A I'm ?are there ware of fibers prasent there, yes.r 12 ?Hundreds, hundrada of fibers. Givan all the hundraas of 13 3 fiber campari?mns that yau made amang thaae various objects, the 14 - only match that you found wag um well, the only match between 15 with?raw. Th6 only matah yau found was tha green Wool fiber and 16 this brown polyester ?iber? hm 17 A That'a earreat. 18 i 9 New, ware yuu given fiber samples fram the home 0r 19 clothing or automobile of a man named Ray Salazar? 20 3 A No, was not. 21 - What abeut a man namea Ramon Salazarthe name sf Bobbie Klapar? 24 A Na. Samuel Roariguez. 2% PO - nnr? 494 Filed: 02/19/91 130 0f170. - agc?)# 12333 1524 1 1 N0. 2 Twny Mosaoni? 3 A N0. 4 1 Tam Terencva? 5 A No. 6 Rick Shukett? 7 A No. a Brian Brumett? 9 A No. 10 Are ycu familiar with theme mamas? 11 A Ha, I'm not. 12 Okayw You only w? the only mamas yau?re familiar with are 13 Hartlaub, Yea, Verdi, and ?ends, right? 1% A That?s gorrect. 15 And ymur familiarity mama Exam Agent here? 16 A That?s aorrectm: Case: 3 DOC #1 494 Filed: 02/19/91 131 of 170. PagelD 12334 1325 1 MR. RUBY: Judge, cauld I taka a shart 2 break? 3 Tag COURT: Take a break? 13 it a little 4 w&zm? MR1 It?s gatting a little E?asty 5 Eur ma. THE We turna? off tha fan: bacausa 8 it wag a lit?le ahilly, new we will turn it back bmcausa we 9 ara a little warm. That?$ abaut the way 15 WGKKE Gut. Remembez my a?manitiona 11 {Recesa takan.) '12 TEE COURT: Be saate?, please. 13 RUBY: Judga, may I continue? 14 THE saunas Yes, if yam Wi?ha 15 MR. KUEY: Thank yam; 3.15 BY HR . EDEN: 1? Q. Mat tam much langer; ?gant Bannett? Since it?s afher 1% lunah, we will meeg it ghazt? 1% Wham we left aff; yum had testi?iad that you ?i?p yam 30 ha? the3e fibera mn? ?ebria Exam Stave Yee?s car, ?ram 31 Mark Verdi's hmuae, fz?m Mark Verdi?s clathing, rathar, an? 22 ?rmm khe Hartl&ah vana Emu ran all thasa comgarisons 33 aagathar and the wnly match that yam found was tha gr?en 2% W001 fibar an? brawn pwly?star fiber? 25 A, That?s carract. c. SALGPEK, npg~cm (216:5?5melzz WW Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 132 of 170. Page D#: 12335 Bennatt me33 1536 1 Q. I Gmitte? to mantian ?efendaut Sahn Ean?au Did yam 2 get any 3amples 6f Befen?ant mamas? almkhing? 3 1 didn?t. 4 Q. ?kaya Did yam particiyate in any Eaatch mi 5 Eu??s? homa wt hi5 6 a. N?y ?i?n'tn 7 Q. An? ?i?'?gent ?uilaway give ?g yam any samplaa mf his, 8 tha in?arior 0f hia autnmabilaa i? he hag ?ne, at his Rama? 9 A. N0. 10 Q. ?kaya Di? yam knawg hawaverg that Befan?amt B?n?s was 11 ?ne 0% th@ auayamta in tha 12 A. Yes. 13 g; ?aw; with rempect ta the Varmiliwn glmvay tha 1% phetms ?m an? I 3ai? I waS'gainq tm ha ?una wi?h thi?g bat 15 I?m amt gaimg ?g gut tae easel back up mm these yhmtos mf 16 the gra9n glwva hara; th?ge ate pi?cea of graen are 17 they? 13 That?a curraat. 19 9, Okay. where axa the nylan fibers? 29 A. I $idn?t take picturas 0f the nylenm because I wasn?t 31 matching any nylan fibers? I anly tank piatures 0f ?ibeza 22 I was matchingmatch the nylan fibera, thaugh, with 24 fibera taken ftam Stava Eae?s aar and Mark Wax?i?s 25 cl?thing? FRANCIME G, (315)57?w?ll? Mm, Case: 3 DOC 494 Filed: 02/19/91 133 of 170. PagelD 12336 Bannett amass 1527 1 Au Eat there weren?t any fiberg to match. 2 Right? 3 wall? yam fauna mther fibar$ an Steve yam fauna 4 all kin?s of ?iberg in Steva YEQBS aa: aa well as on Mark?s 5 clathing? 5 Righ?, 7 Q. But name 0f ?ne nylon fiber? that were an tha green 8 glava matche? the fibats that yau faun? in $teve's car at 9 ?ark*3 18 That?g warrant. 11 So you just ??cided t9 sayarat? tha green waal ?ibera 12 ?zam the nylan ?ibara an? just the graen waol 13 fibers? 14 A. 15 9? With respect ta thiS brawn palyagter fibar, I just 1% want ta maka aura I un?ar?tan? thia. Yea faun? a brawn 17 golyaatar ?iber an Vermilian glove; zigh?? 18 A. That'a 19 99 And that matchad a fibex faund im the Eartlaub van; is an that right? 21 A. That'$ right. 22 Q. Tha gulyegter ?ibar an that glmva did mat match any 23 fibera ?ound in Steve Yea?s car or Mark Var?i's alwthimgx 24 right? 25 R. Tha??s carrac?a It did net match thasw. FRANGERE C. ?215)575w3112 .. WW_m??l?l Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 134 of 170.? PageID 12337 ?ammatt Crass 1528 1 Q. akay. With reapact t0 the brown fiber just brieflyg 2 what?s the scuraa 5f that fiber? LI.) 5, Source 0f tha fiber? 4 Q1 Yas? Wha makma it? I ?cn?t knaw. 33?" 6 Q. Okaya Eu y?u gnaw wha ma?a the ?ya far ?hat fihar? 7 may I ?an?tu 8 Q. Qkay? Yam showe? us thesa ?wa @ictures 0f the brawn 9 fibar: is that right? 19 A. That'a right. 11 13 khis what?s knuwn a3 a longitudinal yhetagraph? 13 a? That's carraat. 13 Q. An? by ?langitu?inal,? we just ma?a like yau lay it 14 auwn flat an? you juat taka a gicture of it lying an its w? 13 Taka a piatuze 0f it lying alang the lengkh af that 15 .fibar? 17 Ghay? Yum atata? in a rapertg you that ?w a: 13 maybe in yaux ?iract ?w that yam identified it aa a delta 19 fiber? 3% A, 93 a delta ch53msectienal shaye. 31 Qkayu yum do cragawsactianal test an this? 22 It was com9area in whale amount as far aa ?etmrmining 23 wheth?r ax not tha exaggua?ctianal ahagea wara the aame. 24 In fact? they were; yagn 25 Q. 3% the answez ta my guaatiom is yes? C. Sgnavam, 11 ?emnett a CEOSE 152% A. Q0 Yum a aros3~wectinn Eeat GE the anawer i3; ma, yam di?n?t de a exass?saetimn ta$t? but yam ?ian?? thimk yau ta? a. Tha crass sectian wag cartainly axamina? an? it?a Ehe sam?e Q. You cut a crass aection aha you cmmgaxe? it? Au I dian?t cut a crass sactimn. but as I wag attemp?ing ta tell you; it can be detarmine? the shape ?in the longitudinal meant and I datermine? that in fact they were the Sama? Q. Have yam ancwuntara? at are yam Eamiliat with the situatimn where lengituainally thingm hava the same view? but in faa? have ?ifferent cr053 ?ectim?s? Ag l?m ?ak sur? I un?argtam? yam. Qt Well; that yam can 100% at khem langitu?inally thaw lmaka? the sama langitu?inallyv at one af tham appears t0 hava a caxtain ghaya longitu?inally, but in fact it ?maan?t have the ara?s sectien ?hat yam waul? expac?? A. XE I waa unaartain as ta tha cr$5s??actional shapa ?atermine? fgem the langita?inal whole meant, I mania have made a cr0$s~$ectianal cutting? ?ak in thi? case I ha? n9 difficulty determining that it was a dalta ahage fibet. Q. Emu made a ja?gment call? FRANCINE Cg (315)575~8112 .. .1. Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 136 of 170. Page D#: 12339 Bennett Crass 153% 1 A. Of caur??. 2 Q. Lika yam ma?a a ju?gment call with respect ta theme 3 pictures an? with re3gect t0 ?ne aptical graparkiaa yam 4 sai? wara tha game? 5 A. Thay are tha same? gas. 6 Yeah. They are the same? but thay?re mat i?entical? A. That?a carxectw 3 .9. Okay? 13 it fair k0 say tha? ta a certain axtent that 9 13 a subjective assumgtian, that is, yam eyeball thage and 19 yam say they matcha And yam 190% at the variuug apectra 11 am? yau gay this 13 within an aaceptabla ranga? it?s a 12 gubjedtive teat: is that cmaract? 13 A. There ara certainly subjective aapacts to itg I?m 14 calle? upmn t0 exmrciam my judgment as ta whather or mat 15 they are the samea 1% Yas? 17 9? 18 Q. 9&3, of cmurse. 19 Ymu?re ?amiliar with the ?arm blind teating; right? 29 Ag Yes. 21 Q1 I?m net gaing ta amk yam ta ?e?ine it? I think the 22 jury has prwbabiy h?ard anaugh?ab?u? itu But ymu 23 frequently $6 blind tasting: is that right? 24 A. There ar& yro?iciancy tests givan by tha FBI 25 labazatary, yew. (3.. REEF-CE (2163575w9112 . . . . Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 137 of 170. PageID 12340 Bann&tt Crews 1531 1 Q1 akayw What mean 13 mat heating that i? ta task ymur 2 yrafici?ucyg but yam get Stuff sent ?uwn ta yam faixly 3 frequently whexa ymu $0n?t whethax a match 13 gaing ta 4 b9 helpful a: harmful tn the grasaautar?s thaary of the 3 Gaga: right? 6 That has nathing hm am with it. Are yam asking am 7 than requeste? t3 ?atazmine axa the mama 8 microscoyically, thicallyg hava they bewn dyed the mama 9 way, yes @r no? 10 Q. Agent, 19m sorsy ii 1?m mat being claar. I apolegiae, 11 an? I will aak ik anather waya 12 You are fragmently sent fibera, are ynu natg an? aske? 13 ta ?e c$m?arisans, an? in caurse of that requeat, yam 14 ?an?t knaw whathex a match 13 helpful ta whatever theary 15 the ?rwsecutars hava Gr i3 harmful ta whatavar they hava; .15 is that right? 17 3; That?s ?xue* 13 Okay. Yuu ?on?t ?artiaipat? in the actual 19 invaatigativa pxoceaa, yam ?onet wank with the 20 invegtigatiV@ team as such? 21 Ha. I would hava n6 way 9E knmwing whiah case 13 22 actually part af aha hiina testing @hat?s the 23 puryaae 5% it. waul? have an idea whatseevar? 24 and, in famt, yam knaw, mat a3 part u? the tasting in 25 the sense 6f ?his is an examinatimn, but testing in I FRANCEME Ca SALQEEK, Rincm (315)57519112 Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 138 of 170. Page D#: 12341 Bean?tt Crasg 1532 i sanse of ?ning tha wark that you?re traina? ta yam make 2 aompari?cns an? yau ma?a matcha? vary frequantly withaut 3 kncwi?g w?ather the in?armatimn yauare sen?ing eat is geing 4 t0 make a prcsecuaor baggy, right, at if 1t?3 geing to mak? 5 him gayg ?9h; rats?? 6 A. it daasn?t make any ?ifferenca t0 me whether it makas 7 him happy GK $aa? 9 . Whether it mattars t0 yam or net, you dangt knaw quite 9 frequently, 59 it can*t matter: right? 10 A. Thatgg true. All I?m with is ?etermining 11 whether it exhibita the sam& miarm?cwpically 12 characteristica an? aytiaal propertiaao 13 Q. But in thia case; yam par?icipate? in tha actual 14 aearch 0f atevan $9339 gar: 13 that right? 15 Aw That?s true. 15 Q. Emu patticiyate? in ?he actual fih?r cullectionp 13 1? that right? 18 A. yea, I @191 19 Q. An? yuu wnxked fairly clasaly; ia 1% fair ta say, with 29 Agant Emllaway duriag same parts of tha inve?tigative phage 21 0f tha case? 23 A, That's caxract. 23 ?Ru RUBY: Yam: ??nwr, I?m gaing t0 Rea? 34 my prmmisea I hava n0 further quaatians. 25 .. .. an SALQFEEQ (215157546112 1 1.. Case: 3 Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 139 of 170. Page D#: 12342 Bennatt a C3033 1533 1 EXAMENATIGN 2 RY GILBERT: 3 Gun? afternaan, Agant Bennatt? 4 Gma? af?ernoans 5 9* Just as I'm claax an this, the:& ware a lat 3f hair a ?amplaag unknawn piecaa af hair at atran?s mf hair takan 7 bath the Hartlaub vehicle an? the Yae vahicle; 13 that 8 c?rrect? 9 A. That?s correct. 15 Can you give us an estimat? cf how many differant ll samgles of hair ware callecte? Exam tha van Gr Exam 12 Mr; Yeeqa v&hic1a? 13 Haw many ?if?arent Samplea? 14 Q, Can yea qiva us an idaa haw many wara taken 0r 3 15 scrapa?? 15 a. I have no idea? 17 9% Cemld 1% be hundre?a? 13 A. Caul? has 19 Q. But yam anly baa what, thraa er faur knawn samples ta 3% camgmre with thaae hundr??s 0r maybe mven thausan?s of 31 unknawn samplas; isn?t that Garrect? 22 A. Tha??s true, 23 Againg anybo?y that has ever ri??en in ahat particular 2% vehicla may have ?apmgita? a hair. 25 Q. And as an Ruby aske? ymu the ?ame quegtian canaerning Ca, W?m Wu?? Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 140 of 170. Page D#: 12343 Banne?t 0:035 153% 1 .a11 th%$e different ye?ple w? salazaxa Ro?riquaa, Klappar musaani, eh catata um yen @idn?t have their knawn hair 3 samplas ta check with all th6$a ather hun?rada 0f 0f hairs ahat were cailacte? isom the twa ism?? 5 tha? currect? 6 A. That's warrant. 1 didn't hava thase knawna. 7 Noww with raggect ta tha haira that you axamined, we 8 hava n5 way wf knawing, ?u we, haw thoae ?artiaular gtrands 9 mi hair waul? hava axrivea an Either the ?laarmat of tha 10 Yea vehicley at the glmvag a5 we?re talking abaat in this 11 aasa? 12 Na, can?t tell haw they wmul? have ?ame t0 have 13 reate? an thasa particular itamg. Q. whey moul? have came there in any i?finita Rumba: af 15 ways? umul? they mat havehave me idea cf knowing haw lang these haira 18 cauld have been at the hawk seat GE My; Yee?s Vehicle, 19 cauld we have? 29 A. I can?h tell when khay ware placa? ?here either? 21 Q. Hairs; by ?he way; ?e mat hair samyleag ance 22 rammved Exam th? b$?yf ?g mat age ?ramati?ally aver tima, 23 do they? 24 A. Na? I waul?n't think that the micrasempic 25 charamtariatica 0f hairs, game they are remave? Exam tha FRAMCZNE C. SALQPEKF (2163575w6112 ij "m Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 141 of 170. Page D#: 12344 Benn?tt Crass 1535 1 are changed. ?air is a very ?urable gubatanc?. 2 3G yam aan?ta a @ieae 0f hair canl? be taken Exam a 3 mummy, far example; fr?m tha Egyptian tam% an? ha suitable 4 fax same kin& of mimrascepic analysiay amald it not have? 5 Fassibly. 1 would have ta 19mm at it? 5 Q, ?aw? in this @articmlar casag you weray a5 Ruby 7 brmught autg yau wage at the acane of the $earch 9f aha Yee vehicla: right? 9 That?s carract. 10 my Ana that was, if I can rafraah year recallection, ll ?arch 15th, 1988? 12 A. Cmrraat. 13 Q. And 3a yen had tha vacuum swaapingw that ware 14 ultimatgly ua?? in the tasks that yuu?re talking abgut in 15 anurt tu??y since March 16, 1988? 16 A. Yea? 17 An? yam that Era Eom?s? samgla waa callactad 18 araun? April 38, 1993; ia that carzech? 19 That?g cautac?. 26 Q. I?m g?ing t0 Show you hare what 13 a w? what is 31 @r?bably identifiable a3 an FEE lab rapmrt. Havg you saen 22 this befareg Agent Benne?h? 33 Yes; have. 34 Q. All right, And that is a report that yau baa 25 anmething he an to prapare? FRAECENE C. (215)573*0112 w- Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 142 of 170. Page D#: 12345 ?annett CEGSE 1536 1 3 ?g and thia is date? Jana 1; 1939? 3 A. Yea? 4 And that is after abaut, oh w? th?t?a ever a y?arg 5 prahably abnut 15 manths er :6 manths a?ter thi?r th@ 6 Hartlaub killing: isn?t that true? 7 That?s true? 3 Q. Ana isn?t it a fact that based on this rapart yen werw 9 reaubmitte? the known hair Sample of my ciient, Jahn Ean?ag 19 on Ayxil 13tha 19893 aver a year -- after a year at 14 11 af??x the killing mi Mr. ?ar?laub? 12 A. Easy thwaa slidas weza r?aubmittyaa kn?w whan this aase was in?iate?? 14 an Hm, dan?t? 13 Q. ?aw, yam hava tastifie? tw?ay that the tests that yam 15 uga ta examine hair aamglea is called a micr03cayic test: 17 is that cagract? 13 Ag Yea; it?s micrascoyic wxaminatimn. 19 Q1 Isn?t it a Each thara are numeruus gcientific tasts 38 that cauld ha t9 fulfill aha mama functiun; isn?t 31 ?hat a fact? 22 A. am what? 23 Q. Tm maka campari$mn$ an hair? 34 4. Di hair? 25 Q. Yea. FRANCIHE C. RERWCM (2163575n?llg Case: 3: 89- -cr- --OO720 JZ D0c#: 494 Filed. 02/19/91 143 of 170. PageID 12346 Wennett CEQSS 1&3? 1 WW I?m mat awara Qf any athers cthar than miaraac?pic 2 ecmyariannsa 3 You?re net awaxa af th? scanning 0W tha Electr?n 4 miaxamcaya technigue? 5 E?m aware that that teahnique hag been tria?, but the WEE labwra?ary Waes mat canaidar rasult? 0f that t0 be Q. Yam are aware that it 1% used in tha farenaia fiald 6f GL3 a9 hair camparisansp ara you nah? 19 A. Same p?opla may nae it. The FBI labaratmry daas ll mat a? 12 Yaur lab mm 13 w? because we an amt f??l the raaults are reliable. 14 WGGLEY May he finish? Thank yam? 15 BY GELBERT: 16 a? Want lab chawaeg mat t0 age an el?atranic microacapa, 1? is that carrect? Can yam answer that yea Gr na? 18 a. it ?caan't the elemtron mimrmacmgaa 19 tha alactronic has the cagacity ta 2% examina micr03c$yically many; many mar? times tha gawax 05 21 tha kind 0E that yam aged in this case: isn?t 22 that carrect? 23 A. it 24 Q. yaa haard af the nQutzanwac?iVWtion 25 analysis? FRAECEHE C. SRLOPEK, - . .. Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 144 of 170. PageID 12347 Benn9tt - 1538 1 an Yes, I have? 2 Q, Ea that aver bean us?? 9y Euransic scientiata ta make 3 aamgarisan? of a haig 3ampla? 4 A. it has, but it is not use& by the FE: labnratary. 5 Qt Haw abaut gaS chrumatmgraphy? 6 $ama answer? 7 ?asa syactrame?ry? 3 A. Yas. 9 Q9 What about thi?~1ayer chramatagraphy? Have you ever 19 heard cf that mathad? 11 A. Caul? he use? far hair by 12 I ?an?t what Sama paeyle may have use? a5 fax a3 13 hair axaminatiansu 14 Q. Eat yam are familiar with the ??chniquas khat ax& 15 available in ?sransic aompariaon GE haix Samylaag are yen 15 mat? l? A. 1 That'a warrant. 18 Q. Ana these have baan uaa?, have they nut, as 19 fax a3 ymu Knaw? 2% Ra They hava been used by acme. 21 Q. New, it?$ gasaihla thr?ugh the tachnique that you nae 22 at the F91 t0 ?atermina the sax 0r origia o? tha hair 23 sample; isn?t that aarreat? 24 a. Only if that& i$ a ?nf?iaiant amaunt af tisaue 25 attachad ta tha raat yarti?n af the bait an? the 5&3; th$ FRANCINE C4 (215)575*3112 m'an?u?I?w 8.9- C-r --OO720 JZ 494 Filed. 02/19/91 145 Of 170. PagelD 12348 Bennett Crasa 153% 1 individual frem that ?w 2 Q. Can it be dune; Six? 3 A. if a gu??icient amaunt nf his?ua ia attache? tn that 4 hair. 5 ge Ana yam werau?t able t0 ?g that in this ease? 5 May because there wa$n?t an a?aquate amount uf ti?sua ?rasent? 8 Q. What abaut the race? wane yea able t0 determine the 9 race? 1% Tha macial charactarishics of the hair? E83. 11 Emu wara able ta a0 that in thia case? 13 Yes? 13 Q. What abaut t?we yarticular mresence oi any kind QE 1% fayeign material an aha hair? Wera you abla to ?9 that in 15 thia case? 16 Ag If I ha& saan ?mmathing that stand ?ut ta me ?aring 17 the micrwacapic @xaminatiany waul? have ma?a note Gf 18 that. 19 9? Ry tha wayy the picture? that yam teak that arm gart 20 6f the exhibit ?g noa shaw any wf tha 9f aha hair, ?e 21 thay? 22 they ?an?ta 23 la? And they ?3 mat annw any Gf the tips af the hair? A. There are distal partisns 9f aama mf the haira, 05 C. 8.9- --0r --OO720 JZ 494 Filed. 02/19/91 146 Of 170. PagelD 12349 ?a?nwtt Grams 1540 Q. But thexa ara n3 actual andg 0E tha hair, are there? he Ho, The ac?ual ena of tha hair it$?lf is mat 3 Q. Isn?t if a faat tha? ahese garticular w? that haira are axamine? my raot my tip, in a??itimn hm all tha 3 ether characte rigtica that yam talke? abmut? 6 A. Ce?tainlyi And I lanka? at all th? micsasaegic 7 charamthiatics af these haira fram the rent an the tip 3 en?a. 9 But yam ?idn't take any picturea ta shew whether thare 16 were any disaimilarities by tip a: by rant by the picturea 11 yam tank? 12 A. W?liy thera wer&n?t any diagimilaritiga. Tha piaturag 137 that I have Shawn, charactexistica meta the 14 Same? 15 Q. ?aw; thare wag a blank say that wag ?ubmitte? tn you, 15 was theta nut, 30mg kin? m? a black ww 17 Which numbai are you referring ta? 18 a? Qw67. 19' &q Qw57? 2G Q. Yaa. 21 An? yam nah able ta maka any ccmyaxigwms ?rmm 22 that particular item 0f evidmnaa, ware yum, with any 9f the 23 hair samples in this ease? 24 A. I was able t9 ma?a a haig camparisou: h?weverp mama 0f 2% the hairs ?eun? on that yar?icula: item ?w C. (216357?w?llz Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 147 of 170. Page D#: 12350 Bannett Crasa 1541 1 Q. Okay? 2 nu exhibitad the game micraacwyic characteristics as 3 the knawn hairs Ermm any 0f the ??ur in?ividuals ?f wh?m I 4 ha? knawn hairag 5 Q. Ana yam are awara that tha blawk cap wag faun? alang 9 with the glava that yam axamina? in this particular 7 al?ng the si?e 0f Reut$ 2 in Vermilian? 8 I?m aware it wag racnwera? Exam alangai?a that 9 highway; yes? 19 Ana in year axparianc?p sir; 13 it mare likaly that 11 hair will be fauna an a cap that?s warn aver the head than 13 on athar items 0f alething? 13 A. it?s poaaibla; that hairg ara aertai?ly fauna 14 fraquantly an ?hixt?g jacke?s, sacks; all kinda GE thingsy 15 wants ?w 16 Q. sense wauld ?ictata that a gag that 13 in clmse 17 praximity m? head hair waul? frequantly have hair atuck ta 1% it? 19 Am it frequautly wmuld, but mther artiales mi clothing 39 alsm have head haira faana attache? tn them. 21 un?arstamd. 22 Raw. ymu'va teatifiaa that when yam campare? my 23 aliemt?a knawn hair aampia t9 the quaatiane? hair sam?lea 24 that y?a examine?; that they exhibit the same micr?acapic RS charaatexigtics? FRAMCINE Ca (21%3375w?ll2 . 1 1 mw-W?mi. Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 148 of 170. Page D#: 12351 Bannatt Crass 1543 A. gag, thay 2 9* All right. But yam alga have indicate? that ?aesn?t 3 mean i? was the same in?ivi9ua1? 4 A, That?s tfueo I can?t be cergain that those hairs are fram yum: client. 6 Q. Ian?t it a fact that di?fereat @emple, ?ifferent hair caul? have the mama a characte?iatics? 9 A, Agaia, thare have been rar& instancag. 18 Right? 11 A, But 1 gm back ta what testified t9 yam earliar that 12 hairs Exam ?ifferent yamgi? lack diffaxant. 33 Q. When yam gay it caul? have baen Mr? mamas? hair? wha? 14 ymu?re gaging is that tha hair microscayic charactaristics 15 aza aimilare are campatable a: alik?, aren?t yam Saying 15 that? 1? $1 E?m Saying the micrascapic aharaategistics are the 13 aame such that if I ?39k that hair and drappe? it inta a 19 bag that cuntainad a number 0f hgirs fram that parson 20 an? shmak that bag up, 1 woul? mat latmz be able ta piwk 21 Qua that questimned haif. Why? 22 Agent Bannatt "w 23 Eacauae those hair characteriatics are kha same? 24 ME. WUOLEY: can he finish? 25 MR. GILBERT: I only ?ake(21535?5~0112 Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 149 of 170. PageID 12352 Benaett Crass 1543 queatian. Ha gaes an m? 2 THE CGURTs I think we can ghertan it up? 3 BY Q. Wham yaw gay the sama miaru?cupia aharaateri?ticp you 5 are mat aaying it?s an ahsalute matchabgmlute match. 7 Q1 ?What ywu?re saying is that the hair is similar at 8 compatabl? 0r alik?, aren?t yam saying that? 9 A. I?m aaying that tha micrascopic characteri$ticg ara 19 the same. 11 Q. E?m nah asking about the micrascwpia charaatari$ticag 12 E?m talking abaut tha hair itsalf is similar and 13 cansistant; but mat absaluta p$?s?nal i?4ntifica?ian; isn?t 14 that rightconsistant with having cuma fram that 15 inaivi?ual. 17 Q. Ana when yea talk ab?ut likalihnod Gr prmbability, yam 18 can?t give this jury any kin? af numbers of f?equ??cyp can 19 yau? 26 ?g mo, 1 aan't? 21 Na furthar quastionau 22 MR. Ralph? 23 MR. BESS: N0. 24 25 C. RP?mc? (216)575w0112 wr?W Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 150 of 170. PageID 12353 154% REBERECT 2 BY MR, WQOLEY: 3 Q. Hair i$ prakty stable, yen sai?; is that carr?at? 4 Yas, sirg it 19" 5 Q. whim saries of tegta that Gilbert rattle? t0 6 yam? with haix bei?g Ekableg that cauld ha paxforme? at any 7 time; isn?t thaa amrrect, 03 tha game items yam laoka? 8 A. Easy that?s true. :33; g. All right? When yam 190k at fiber analysia, you 190% 19 at particular fibers? is that an abacluta taat invulving a 11 aetarminatian cf actually what ayes wera msa?, what 12 cambinahian 9f dyes; a: 13 it a camgarativa test between a 13 knawm a quaaticnad? 1% A. It is a camparativa wast ta ?etarmine whethwr ax not 15 the queatianed itam an? the Rnawm item fihars have been 16 dyed the game way 0: have they been 1? ?y Is it naceasary to the namag 9f the aye$ an the 18 actual ?ye combinatiana to thia com@arative 19 analy3is? 36' ?bsolutely not? 21 All rightg The fact that you di?n?t knew that 22 infatmatien in this ?oes?thig make an unuaual case 23 ant of hun?reds w? cases that yam have lamke? at? 2% A. Na. Thig case wag worked in tha gama way that all 25 ca$as are warke? in tha FBI labnratary. FRANCINE Ca (215)575~3112 ?Mu . - m, Case: 19 ll 12 DOC 494 Filed: 02/19/91 151 Of 170. PagelD 12354 1343 Q0 Agent Bennett, with respact ta Gavernment?a Exhibit 39~Eg these fibers, you?ve talkea abeuh how we sea aansistency with reagaat t6 the graen glave t0 the fibex 0n the gun, fram the gzeen glava to the fiber on ?he whist, grean glove fibar fxom ?re Yee'g vehiclea What ?3 we see wit respect tn canaiatancy guing downward in ?hia celumnp fargetting the glava far sake af argument? A. Again, as ymu can away they axhibit same micrnsaapic charactEEiatica ana aptical proyartie$. The $019: is the same: they hava all been ?yed tha same way. Q. Well, than jugt far the 33km w? argumantg forgetting tha glwve far a a?can?g what canalusion; if any, can you 13 make abuut the likelihaa? that eitha: the same ?bjECtp be it a glave at whahever, at an abjeat that was aym? the same way as this abjeat cam@ in cantaat with all thase ?ifferent fan: plaaes? A. I think it?s very likely ?hey all came inta auntact with the aame abject. Q. akay. Is yam: hair analysis destructiva testing? A. Nag it is Batu ?g 13 the fiber daatructiva testing? may it is mat. Q. 30 thase itema gamain? They remain. They can be examined at any time. WGQLEY: Thank you.1 Nuthing further, FRENCIME C. (215)575u8112 W. .m Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 152 of 170. Page D#: 12355 1545 1 mad RUBY: Just a faw. w- 3 EKAMENATEQE 4 BY 5 Agant Bennett; when you can; you dm want t0 fina Gut, 6 for example, whe manufacturas a particular ?iberg is that 7 right? 3 .A. Not That?v somathing that it doean?t matter. We?ra 9 intereate? in ?etezmining have they been ?yed the same 16 wayfact that in fact whan yam ara abla ?0 12 ?etermina wha makea a paxtiaalar fi?arg yum an want t? find 13 that aat ?hat lat?$ you knowy Ear example? whaxa 14 these fibers are di?tributaa? 15 A. It waul? be hei?fulg yesa 15 am It waul? be helpfula An? sametimes when yam hava been 17 abla ta ?o it; it haa haen ?ame by 18 A. Yastimeap Wham thay axa able ta, do ?evate 28 Substantial to fin? out whe ma?a this Eiber. 21 whex? it games Exam, whera-it's ?ishributed: is that 22 cerrect? 23 Aa 0n that?a b?en den@? 3% 0n accasion? 25 A, Y??u FRAHCINE C. RP?wcCase: 3 DOC #1 494 Filed: 02/19/91 153 Of 170. PagelD 12356 15%? Qw Saran 2 And what that daeag far example, if this pamticuEar 3 Eibar 13 ma?a mnly in New axleana-an? is distributed anly 4 in Mew arleana an? ii turns my in Ohia, and you gat a 5 ?afan?amt Eram ?ew Griaana with tha same typa 9f fibem, 6 yau?re &ble t0 get up thara an the stand and say? 7 this i3 why I think thay matmh, an? this is why I think 8 thay ?ame inta contact ra?h?r than arising indapen??ntly; 9 right? 18 Yea? 11 Q, Ana, in fact, if gmsaihl?a you waul? like $0 mtriy off 12 the dy& the fibar itsalf an? axamiaa that as well; 13 isn?? that right? 1% A. Yes, we waul? like ta ?e that. Huwever; that wmul? 15 invalva dastructian 6f ?hat particular piece 0f avidencae 16 a, Right? But in khis case in fact yum ha?r far axample, 1? th@ tapa, th? fibera ??und an aha gun, far examyle *5 the 1% taye that waa use? an tha gun? 1% Yea. 30 Shay? Yau ha? a number o? knowns there: right? 21 A. Yes? 1 baa nae green woel fibaxy gag. 22 Q. $6 you ha? mare than ana? Bian't you have Kml, K?2y 23 Ka?? 24 Bifferent fibergy yesy 25 mifferent fibera an the same piece wf tape? - W?m FRANGINE C. SALDPEK, Case: 3 Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 154 of 170. PageID 12357 1548 1 Yea? 2 Q6 30 it-waan?t lika ywu just ha? nae fiber? 3 A. Just ?ne of thaga gxaen wnal fibarsp hawevar. I 614 4 mat want t0 dastroy that. 5 1 Qkay? understand; but my queakian is wita respact 9 t6 the tape; fer $xamyieg yau had multiyle grean waal fiber?? 9 A. There may hava been meta than one, yes. 9 There were mere than ?ne. Okay? 16 and with Kaspact to the grean glove, 1 ?un?t know haw 11 many ?iberg ara hereg like a millien, right, 0: a let? 12 whey coul? be brake? into almoat an unlimita? number 13 af fibers? 14 Q. Okay. An& yen didn't strip the nf? af thosa: 15 right? 16 No; 17 Q. Okay. 13 MR. RUBY: I have no fuxthar quaaticma. 19 I WOQLEY: WE hava nothing further" 29 Thank yam. 21 THE COURT: All right. Thank yam. 22 {Witness 33 NDOLEY: Your Hmnar, the gavernmE?t 34 call& Rabart Wabba 25 THE CGURT: Haw lung will yum gm? ca (216)575~0112 DOC 494 Filed: 02/19/91 155 Of 170. PagelD 12358 15%9 WOGLEY: Birect examina?imny tau km 15 2 minuteS. 3 manta-mun a a a F. 5 9f lawful agag calle? as a witneaa by 6 the vaernment, after having been first duly Sworn; Was @Kamined an? testifie? 3 aa f?llaws: 9 10 SIRECT EXAMINATION 11 BY WGGLEY: 13 Q. Can yam be $tata yam: name, apelling yaur lash name 13 'far ?he caurt reparter? 1% a. My name is-Rabert Fa wenb, spelle? WwEmeB. 15 Q. Haw ara yam Webb?' 15 I?m a Spaaial agent, Federal Euteau sf Inveatigakian. 1? Agent ?abby haw lang have yam been so wmglaya?? 13 A. Ewanty years next weak? 19 What is yen: entrant w? 29 THE CGURT: Let?s E1nd out when is tha 21 retirement tima? 22 THE WITNESS: Six years, aw many 23 (Laughtex?3 2% THE CGURT: ?kay. I shoul? say evary 25 Ea?eral hngwe when their retirement data is. C. RERWCM (215)575w0112 Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 156 of 170. PageID 12359 Webb ?irect 153% 1 (Laught9rab 2 WESLEY: Collect mysal?? 3 4 Q. All right, Agent Webb, where ara yea cuxrantiy 5 asaigna? with within aha 991? 6 A. I?m in the FBI laboratary, Waahingtan, D.C. 7 Q, What 13 yam: area wf ex?ettisag 31:? 8 I?m in an area calla? instrum?ntal analysea. 9 Q. Whak ?u yam 60 in that araa, ggesificallyg with 10 rasgect to facusing an analyzing plaatics or itema like 11 that? 12 A1 I?m raspanaibla fa: the-gnalygea of all Rindg of 13 waintp plastim-materials, an? alsa casmatics. 14 Can yau tall the jury abaut yaur training and 15 backgreum? with raspect to these endeavazg? 15 R, 1 gra?uated Exam the ?nivexaity e? Califernia in 1969 17 with a Bachalor 0f Sciance ?egrae in Chemistry. 18 A?ter that time, I was a chemist in a private 19 lahnratoxy in Sacramento, Caiifarnia. I Game intm the FEE 28 laburatezy in Februazy af 19?1. 21 Sinca that time, I?ve participat?d in a training 22 patina under the auparvisian 0f athar agants in an area 23 calla? inatxumantal analygea? 2% 93 part 0f my training, I was ingtructed in pruce?ure 25 tachniquav in handling evidence, and in haw ta ayerate tha FRANCINE Ce (216)57?w?ll? MAW Wm WV-W Case: 3 Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 157 of 170. Page D#: 12360 webb - Birect 1551 varioug yieces 0f sciantifia instrumenta that are availabla ta me? I?ve alsa had the duty and regpa??ibility af gaing thraugh litaratura, reference matarialsr cher amaumentation relative ta the fiel? of yaint and ?1a$ti?$ amd awamatica. an? I?va tha exparienae in my cageez 0f having handled 5avera1 theugan?s itama af eviaencey like i have han?le? in this case? Qw Shay. Haw many times hava yam previausly testifie? an? bean qualifie? a3 an expert in the ?ields yau'va just ?escribed? A. Appraxim?taly 159 times?aw; in cannactian with thia same; aid yam analyze itams submit?ed ta yau items of plastica auhmittad ta yen to ?et?rmine ?ny cf camsiatency between thaae itema? An Yea. Q. I ask yum t0 195k at Government?s Exhibit the brasa catcher Exam the waa?nn at iS$ueg an? vaernment?a Exhibit 30, identifie? a5 twa plagtic tzash bags lacata? in Mr? home. Are thaa? items that you analyze? in connecaian with thig 639%? an Items was an? 38 hear my initiala an? ether i?antifying marka in?imating that I have axamine? th?sa items. ERAMCINE 3. (216)575w9112 Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 158 of 170. PageID 12361 Webb Diract 1552 1 Q. All right? In item 30y there are twu baga; is that 33.} cmrr?ct? 3 A: Yego 4 Q. All Eight? Ana you analyze ena a: bath sf thesa as bags camgarative gut? gag again?t ?ha brasa catcher? A1 Bath 0% them.an cur$mry a?aazva?imn, one waa ?233 eliminatw? imma?iately? aha other wag analya?? in detail? a g? All righhu Ear aha jury the natura af the? 9 teating @race?uraa that yea emplaya? ta ?etermine 10 whether w? well, just ?ascxihe far the jury what you 11 when yam analyged thwge twu items sf Evideace, please. 12 A. Speaificallx, canaetning itam in this plastic bag, 13 theplaatic was analyae? visually, microscopiaally with 14 scma chemicala. Thase are called selubility ta$t5. Ana 15 also the glastim wag analyze? with some $ciantific 16? instrumenta ta datetmina tha ahemiatry and all of tha ttace 17 ma?arials i? th? plastic? 13 Q. What ?crt 0f Saientific instrument$? 19 Aw Two?instrumenta were u3ed. One instrument 13 calle? a 28 quxia: Tfamgfarm infrarad ?gectrathtametaxa I will 21 abbreviata it 22 MR. Caul? yum rapaat that? 33 pleaae? 24 BY MR. WOGLEY: Ln 9. That?s okay, ?rm Webb. sure we are all familiar C. {2163?75m9112 Case: 2 Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/91 159 of 170. Page D#: 12362 wabb Direwt 155 with that? Let?g wave on? 2 (Laughtar63 3 Q. Exylain t0 us, baaically, what that in?trum?nt dues, a if you caul?? 5 A. It analyses tha arganic chemiatry 9f matarials like a glasticga It do?? that by gagging an infxaxa? light 7 thraugh a vary thin slice af th? plastic? 8 The infrare? light 13 than Sansed an th? ath@r gide of 9 the plastic an? a graph i$ generate? which identifiea what 10 kind of a plastic I have? 11 Q. ?kay. Then yam mentiene? thera was a aecana 12 instxument that yeu aged ag well. 13 The second.kind of an instrum?nt is aalle? a Pyralysia 14 Gas Chromatwgraphwmasa S??$tr0meter. 15 court stanagraph?t already bag the spellingan 16 {Laughtar.) l? Qu ?nd what @093 that in$trument air? 18 A. That instrument evaluateg aha chemigtry 0f a material 19 lika plastic by its malacular weights. it dae$ thia by 20 hxeakimg tha malecular farmula af the plastic inta piecaa 21 and than again aha varieus piemeg are senge? by game 23 tachnical instxumentatian, an? that identifies what the 23 various pi?ces sf ?he chemical fermula are? 24 a? Do you alga angage in same visual inspectiana ai?a? by 25 any Rina 9f a micrascope? .. mm C. (315}5?5?9112 Case: Doc 494 Filed: 02/19/919 160 of 170. PageID 12363 Wabh Direct 155% 1 A. Yes? ix} And just bxia?ly ?aacriba what thmsa antaiip 3 Viaual an? micrmseopic analysas ara far avaluatian $5 4 solar; layer?p thiaknesgeag the glusaineaa 3f a material, 5 the sur?ace taxture, if i&"s cwarae a: amucth; alga 6 meaguxaments cancerning a haat aeal, whiah is sametimas 7 fauna an gieceg 5f gla?tic whara physical markg &re made an 8 the plastic; 9 Pieceg cf plastic can alga be fol?a? mechanicaliy an? 19 are ma?a Exam une Eal?lin& to the next. Se 11 ?etaila? ?escrip?icns 3% the surfac? mf tha glastic can be 12 analyze?? 13 Q. Agant Webb; 13 this a one deaigne? t0 give ycu 14 soma absmluta fin?ings wihh raspact t0 the ariqinatian of a 13 yartiaular pi?ae 3E plastic in karma of its manufacture: at 15 is it a aemparative tegt batweem itema? l7 Qamgarative tasts? 19 Q. Ana is this the tamt that Yam perfermea an the trash 19 bag that wa? taye? ta the weapen and compare? that tn the 29 trash bag swiga? fram Verdi?s hausa? 21 I Yes, 22 Q. Ana what findingap if any? yam reach with resyect 23 t0 thosa two itama? 24 A. The pla?tie in Exhibit mo. 6w9 an? the plagtic in 35 mm? 39 match aach ather in calcrs of matezial, textuxe, FRANCENE Ce SALSPEK. Case: 3 DOC #1 494 Filed: 02/19/91 161 of 170. PagelD 12364 Webb Bir?ct 1555 tyye 9f matarial, and chamical aompasitien: therefare, the 2 glaatica in exhibit either Gama tram the same baa of 3 plagtia bags ?r separata boxes ma?? by tha game 4 manufacture; an? in th@ sama batch 6f raw chamicals inta 5 the mixture. 6 Q. Haw-can yau raach tha? canclusien abwmt the batch? On what $0 yen base that? a Based upmn gersanal observatiams at campaniaa which 9 make the$a kinda Gf matarialgy a batch 1% a limite? 10 quantity. Raw chemimala that g0 inta khe yrsductian 11 plaahic$ ara cuntaine? in big trays, The batch 1% Que run 12 till awe Gr?er is fille?? Thia caul? be many linear faat 13 af plastic, many; but thar? are limits? 14 Wham an'araer is filled, that endg that productim?. 15 The machinexy is all cleane?g and than tha next or?er 1% 16 dune wi?h mew chemicaia an? raw matarialaa 17 Q. Wall, haw leng doeg it taka fur a bakmh ta run? 13 18 that a prwceas cf manths far Qne batch? yaars? 19 A. It isn?t tha? lung, 29 The manufacture GE glastic 13 upmn pmun?s peg 31 hunt 0f raw ch?micala. Ana whan an arder cameg inta a 32 manufacturer, it is far numbet 6f linear feet a: number 23 GE ba951 That wan ammunt ta anly Que ?ay Gr ?aya 2% maximum. 25 lym- C. {21?1573"0112 Case? . 1556 1 I 9 Wall, Agant Webb, though, why woul? the batah mne 3 manu?awturaf'differ the naxt batch by that same 3 I manufacturex? 4 . A Tha cmmpanieg that maka th9$a kin? of plastics dmn't usa 5 the spoons of mna material in a thimble full mi anather kind of 6 chemical but big quantities, 89 pound bags of raw ahemieals. 7 A190 as the machinery is running, contaminants build up; 8 additivas ara adda? and acrap plaatic is adaed to pla?tic trash 9 bags. 10 Thi$, 0f course, 13 na? finally controlled from one batch 11 to another. Curxently, science is sengitiva anough with the 12 13 di?farancas in the chemiatry fvom an? manufacturar t0 another 14 and from ona batch to anothar. 15 and that, sir, is what @hableg you to say that these bags 16 came ?rom either the same Or were ma?a during the same batch 17 by a particular manufaeturer, is that carrawt? 18 A YES. 19 MR. WOOLEY: Nothing furthar. Thank ycu? 20 21 CROSS 22 BY MR. KUNSTLER: 23 Ag&nt Webb, W8 have met bafera, hava wa not? 2% A Ya?f we have? 25 And when di? ynu finish your analysisr do yam have th$ . mm. Case' DOC 49/! Fi!ed: 02/1491 163 of 170. 12336 1557 1 . date? 2 A The evidence was given back ta another agent by me on June 3 10th 0f 1988. Precisely what ?ay I finiahed my analyaia wo?ld 4 have been just prior tn that. don't have an exact date. 5 I Well, you finished your report is dated Juna 15, 1938. 6 1 Would that refresh yaur recollection? 7 A Yas. 8 1 And I'm gaing to Show you your report far ?ung 15thza?? I 9 have marked one paragraph there. You see that, with refer?nda n; 10 tn the plastic bags? 11 A Yes. II II. A la 13 examinatisn 9f the material an? ycur complate re?ort furniahad 14 to the FBI and ta the prbsecutmr, isn't that correct? 15 A Yes. 16 And I want yen to 100k at that. De you see a word in 17 thara about ?mixad in the same batch?? 13 4 A No. 19 You didn?t put that in yaur repert, did you? 20 A That's ccrract. 21 And with referanca to the manufacturer cf thia particular 22 plastic, ia the manufacturer? 23 3 A That was not determine? by me. 24 30 you don?t know how this manufacturer ran his d0 25 you? 1553 A Correct. 2 SD when you tell tha jury-what you?re telling abaut 3 differant batahesw yau?ra telling them with total ignorance. 4 aren?t yau,?0f what this'manufacturer Wham you don't even know. 5 how this manu?acturar ran his plant, ian?t that correct? 6 a A No, it isn?t. 7 i Q, Did you visit the plant? 8 A I may have. I have vi?ited two. 9 What plant is it? 18 A I hava visited two planta. There are apgroximataly thirty; 11 manufacturers on the North Amarican continent. 12 9 Agent 4 13 MR. WGOLEY: Objection, asked and answera?? 14 THE COURT: Ha has answered. 15 Hava you viaited tha pl?ht oi the manufacturer of this 16 glastic bag? 17 MR. WQQLEY: ijection. Asked and mnawered, 18 KUNSTLER: No, it hasn?t been, Judge. 19 THE CGURT: I will lat him answer and the answer dmn?t knaw. 22 THE If ha doesn't knew wha manufactured it, 23 it would be a little difficult to visit. 24 Q. Therefmra, you don?t know how the manufacturer 9f this as plant ran his factory, db yam? Case: 1559 1 I A That is carrect. Okay. And with xeference to what ymu know and I imagina 3 I yau?ra tastifying generally about two plants you visitea, is 4 that carrect? 5 I A Yaa. 6 i And you didn?t visit the mthar 28, did you? 7 . A That is carrect. 8 i 9 Okay. And so What you?re tailing this jury about new 9 thege bags are manufactured, how the batches go through, ymu?ra? 10 telling thaw fram your experiance at_two plants, neither one of. 11 which you can identify a5 having manufactured this bag, iSn't 12 that 13 - MR. WGDLEY: Objemtien. Argument; 14 THE COURT: Emunda that way. Sustained* 15 I MR. Okay. 16 (By Mr. Kunstler) New, with reference to the plants you 17 have Vi?itad "m by the way, can you give us their namea? 18 A Yes, I can. One 1% Canadian Indus?rias, Limited, 19 Mantreal, Canada. One 1% totally aacapes me; I want to gay? 20 - Dow Chemical but it ian't. I?m sorry. It will coma to me. 21 And neither ona of them make this bag, d5 they? 22 MR. WGOLEY: Objectian. YDur Honcr, he Said he 23 can?t identify the manufactur?r. if hm wants to.say it in 2% ?ifferent wayg. 35 MR. KURSTLER: I will withdraw it. Case-5 1560 1 THE SOURT: Thank you? 2 (By Mr. Kunstler) And with re?erenca to tha plant that 3 ymu did visit, one you can?t remembar and ana you remambar in 4 Canada, ?g yau how many mw how much plamtic there 13 an tha 5 roll of tha batch, how many linear feet? 6 5 A Na. R0113 d9 V?ry in size. 7 i Wall, what's 4* give us tha maximum first 0f all. How 8 many linear feet? 9 A It variea in size and I ?a mat kmaw the maximum gr minimum: 1G 11 And with referanae to these dmubla walled green trash bags? 12 I in year hams? 13 A l'm not aura if I d? or nmt. 14 I You?re not a Sugpeat in this casa, ara you? 15 A I'm also not hame very mach. 16 Touche'. I might alga say tha Same for me. 17 MR. KUNSTLER: Let ma just have one moment, Ymur 18 Honor. 19 (By Mr. Kunwtler) can yen give mg any ballpark ?igura, 20 if ymu can, of haw many plastic bags of the typa we have 21 involved her?, the?e doubla walled green traah haga, are 22 produced ?rcm a roll that you dafined as a batan roll in any 0f 23 i the plants you visited? 24 A I would egtimate saveral thouaand bags per batch. 25 Per batch. Maw, juSt one mare question.? Did you maka any . he: Case. Doc 494 Fiieu'. 02/19/91 167 Ofi/U. 14.5w 1561 1 attempt to find out who manufactured this bag? 2 i A No. 3 MR. KUNSTLER: That's all I have. 4 Thank you, Agent Webb. 5 MR. GILBERT: have nothing. 6 MR. BUSS: Nothing here. 7 8 REDIRECT 9 BY MR. WOOLEY: 10 7 9 One question. Did you consume all the items in your 11 . testing? 12 i A No. 13 MR. WOOLEY: Nothing further. 14 MR. KUNSTLER: He doesn't give me much room, and I 15 have no questions. 16 THE COURT: Then you can go back. 17 MR. KUNSTLER: I'm going back. 18 THE COURT: Thank you very much. sir. hope you get? 19 home. I hope everybody gets home today. 20 Is that it for today? 21 MR. MORFORD: Yes, sir. 22 THE toner} Tuesday at 9:00 mm 23 MR. MORFORD: I?m sorry. One yeah, Your Honor. 24 I forgot to offerwinto evidence the exhibits that have been been; 25 ?zmarked 35A and B, 36, and 39A, and that were marked during l-l-Ul-l- FIIUU. ULILUIUJ. J.UOU 1562 Agent Bennatt?s examination. THE CGURT: Any abjection? MR. KUEV: Gust as meted befmre, Ju?ge. THE QOURT: All right. Thank you very much. Thay will be admitted. MR. WOOLEY: Thank ymu. THE COURT: DOSE that conclude mm I would lika ta see counsel a? anon as I ragess. Sm ladies and gentlemen, that takes care Qf the weak. Remember my admonitimn. Anothar long waakend; Peopla at home are going ta wmn?er what you have haen doing ?awn here.- EN not to ?u any regearch about the cage, not to farm an apinion . until all the aVi?ance 1% in. Have a goea Presidant' nay. We'll sae you Tuesday. Thank?ywu. (Theraupon, aourt ramasaad at 3:48 o'cloak an. In: a? 1563 I A We, the un?ersigne?, aerti?y that the above and faregaing is a true and camplate tranacriptinn at the procea?inga presented in this caseFran?%?? C. Salopak, nata 0" 1564 1 2 I 3 WITNESSES: ?irect Crass Redirect Reaross 4 Randall King 1399* 1&0? Gilbert 5 1416 Marferd 7 L. V. McGinty 1417 mor?ord 8 1426 Gilbart 9 1432 Morford 10 David Lea Hesa 1435 Wholey 11 1441 Kunstler 12 1&4? Wcoley 13 Kunstler 1449 1% Elizabeth Graf 1&51 Woolay 15 1459 - Kunstler 16 1470 Wowlay 17 Kunstlax 1473 18 Paul Bennett 1480 Wooley 19 1508 Ruby 20 1533 Gilbert 21 3 Robert F. Webb 1549 Woclay 23 1556 Kunatler 23 1&61 Waoley 24 25