Page 1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x 3 NEW YORK IMMIGRATION : COALITION, et al., : 4 : Plaintiffs, : 5 : v. : 6 7 Case No. : UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT : OF COMMERCE, et al., : 1:18-CF-05025-JMF : 8 Defendants. : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x 9 Friday, October 16, 2018 Washington, D.C. 10 11 12 13 Videotaped Deposition of: JOHN GORE, 14 called for oral examination by counsel for the 15 Plaintiffs, pursuant to notice, at the law offices of 16 Covington & Burling, LLP, One City Center, 850 Tenth 17 Street, Northwest, Washington, D.C. 20001-4956, 18 before Christina S. Hotsko, RPR, CRR, of Veritext 19 Legal Solutions, a Notary Public in and for the 20 District of Columbia, beginning at 9:05 a.m., when 21 were present on behalf of the respective parties: 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 A P P E A R A N C E S On behalf of New York Immigration Coalition: DALE HO, ESQUIRE JONATHAN TOPAZ, ESQUIRE American Civil Liberties Union Foundation 915 15th Street, Northwest Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 675-2337 dale.ho@aclu.org On behalf of Lupe Plaintiffs: DENISE HULETT, ESQUIRE MALDEF 1512 14th Street Sacramento, California 95814 (916) 642-6352 dhulett@maldef.org ERI ANDRIOLA, ESQUIRE Asian Americans Advancing Justice 1620 L Street, Northwest, Suite 1050 Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 296-2300 On behalf of City of San Jose and Black Alliance for Just Immigration: JON M. GREENBAUM, ESQUIRE DORIAN L. SPENCE, ESQUIRE Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights Under Law 1401 New York Avenue, Northwest, Suite 400 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 662-8324 jgreenbaum@lawyerscommittee.org dspence@lawyerscommittee.org Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A P P E A R A N C E S C O N T I N U E D On behalf of Kravitz Plaintiffs: TINA M. THOMAS, ESQUIRE Covington & Burling, LLP One City Center 850 Tenth Street, Northwest Washington, D.C. 20001-4956 (202) 662-5083 tthomas@cov.com On behalf of the State of California: GABRIELLE D. BOUTIN, ESQUIRE (Via Telephone) California Department of Justice Office of the Attorney General 1300 I Street P.O. Box 944255 Sacramento California 94244-2550 (916) 210-6053 gabrielle.boutin@doj.ca.gov On behalf of Defendants: JOSH GARDNER, ESQUIRE REBECCA KOPPLIN, ESQUIRE ALICE LACOUR, ESQUIRE BRETT SHUMATE, ESQUIRE U.S. Department of Justice, Civil Division 20 Massachusetts Avenue, Northwest Washington, D.C. 20530 (202) 514-4522 VALERIE M. NANNERY, ESQUIRE ANDREW SAINDOM, ESQUIRE Office of the Attorney General for D.C. One Judiciary Square 441 Fourth Street, Northwest, Suite 600 South Washington, D.C. 20001 (202) 442-9596 valerie.nannery@dc.gov 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 4 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S C O N T I N U E D On behalf of Defendants: DAVID DOREY, ESQUIRE 3 DAVID DEWHIRST, ESQUIRE U.S. Department of Commerce 4 1401 Constitution Avenue Northwest Washington, D.C. 20230 5 (202) 482-2000 6 Also Present: 7 Dan Reidy, Video Technician 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Veritext Legal Solutions Mid-Atlantic Region 1250 Eye Street NW - Suite 350 19 Washington, D.C. 20005 20 21 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 5 1 2 3 4 C O N T E N T S EXAMINATION BY: PAGE Counsel for Plaintiffs Mr. Ho 11 Ms. Hulett 335 Mr. Greenbaum 414 5 6 GORE DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: * PAGE 7 Exhibit 1 E-mail Chain 22 Exhibit 2 Bloomberg Transcript of Gore 26 8 9 Testimony - 21 May 2018 10 Exhibit 3 Letter - 4 Nov 2016 47 11 Exhibit 4 Memo - 8 Sept 2017 58 12 Exhibit 5 E-mail Chain 79 13 Exhibit 6 E-mail Chain 95 14 Exhibit 7 E-mail Chain 101 15 Exhibit 8 E-mail Chain 105 16 Exhibit 9 E-mail Chain 110 17 Exhibit 10 E-mail Chain 115 18 Exhibit 11 E-mail Chain 125 19 Exhibit 12 E-mail Chain 132 20 Exhibit 13 E-mail Chain 135 21 Exhibit 14 E-mail Chain 138 22 Exhibit 15 E-mail Chain 142 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 6 1 2 3 GORE DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: * Exhibit 16 E-mail Chain PAGE 145 Exhibit 17 Letter - 12 Dec 2017 155 Exhibit 18 Screenshot from Census Bureau Website Map derived from Census Data on Census Bureau Website 178 Exhibit 20 Printout from DOJ Website 240 Exhibit 21 E-mail Chain 254 Exhibit 22 E-mail Chain 282 Exhibit 23 Fourth Privilege Log from DOJ in Response to Plaintiffs' Document Subpoenas 292 Exhibit 24 E-mail Chain 296 Exhibit 25 Exhibit 24 Attached Draft Letter 297 Exhibit 26 E-mail Chain 300 Exhibit 27 2020 Census Hearing Gore QFRs CRT Draft DOJ Office of Legal Counsel Opinion - 4 Jan 2010 300 Exhibit 29 E-mail Chain 311 Exhibit 30 Article 312 Exhibit 31 E-mail Chain 315 Exhibit 32 Memo - 19 Jan 2018 319 Exhibit 33 E-mail Chain 330 4 5 6 Exhibit 19 204 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Exhibit 28 303 18 19 20 21 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 7 1 GORE DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: * PAGE 2 Exhibit 34 Census Citizenship Question 330 3 Exhibit 35 District Court Opinion in Reyes 349 versus City of Farmers Branch 4 Exhibit 36 5 Fabela versus City of Farmers 350 Branch 6 Exhibit 37 Negron versus City of Miami Beach 358 7 Exhibit 38 Campos versus City of Houston 362 8 Exhibit 39 E-mail Chain 365 9 Exhibit 40 E-mail Chain 369 10 Exhibit 41 E-mail Chain 371 11 Exhibit 42 E-mail Chain 398 12 Exhibit 43 E-mail Chain 403 13 Exhibit 44 Karlan Report 416 14 Exhibit 45 E-mail Chain 443 15 Exhibit 46 E-mail Chain 445 16 Exhibit 47 Gore Written Testimony 446 18 May 2018 17 18 19 20 21 * (Exhibits attached to transcript.) 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 8 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Good morning. 3 going on the record at 9:05 a.m. on Friday, 4 October 26th, 2018. We are 5 Please note that the microphones are 6 sensitive and may pick up whispering, private 7 conversations, and cellular interference. 8 turn off all cell phones or place them away from 9 the microphones, as they can interfere with the 10 Please deposition audio. 11 Audio and video recording will continue 12 to take place unless all parties agree to go off 13 the record. 14 This is media unit 1 of the 15 video-recorded deposition of John Gore, taken by 16 counsel for the plaintiff in the matter of the 17 New York Immigration Coalition, et al. versus the 18 United States Department of Commerce, et al. 19 This case is filed in the United States 20 District Court for the Southern District of New 21 York. 22 This deposition is being held at the law Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 9 1 offices of Covington & Burling, LLP, located at 2 850 Tenth Street, Northwest, Washington, D.C. 3 20001. 4 My name is Dan Reidy from the firm 5 Veritext Legal Solutions, and I'm the 6 videographer. 7 Hotsko from the firm Veritext Legal Solutions. 8 9 The court reporter is Christina I am not authorized to administer an oath, I am not related to any party in this 10 action, nor am I financially interested in the 11 outcome. 12 Counsel and all present in the room will 13 now state their appearances and affiliations for 14 the record. 15 proceeding, please state them at the time of your 16 appearance, beginning with the noticing attorney. 17 18 19 20 21 22 If there are any objections to MR. HO: Detail Ho for the New York Immigration Coalition plaintiffs. MR. TOPAZ: Jonathan Topaz for NYC plaintiffs. MS. HULETT: Denise Hulett for Lupe plaintiffs. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 10 1 2 MR. SPENCE: the City of San Jose. 3 4 MS. ANDRIOLA: MR. GREENBAUM: MS. THOMAS: MS. KOPPLIN: MS. LACOUR: MR. SHUMATE: MR. GARDNER: Josh Gardner for the Department of Justice on behalf of the defendants. 17 18 Brett Shumate from the Department of Justice. 15 16 Alice Lacour from the Department of Justice. 13 14 Rebecca Kopplin from the Department of Justice. 11 12 Tina Thomas for the Kravitz plaintiffs. 9 10 John Greenbaum from the City of San Jose and BAJI. 7 8 Eri Andriola for the Lupe plaintiffs. 5 6 Dorian Spence for BAJI and MR. SAINDOM: Andrew Saindom on behalf of the District of Columbia. 19 MS. NANNERY: And Valerie Nannery from 20 the District of Columbia attorney general's 21 office. 22 MR. DOREY: David Dorey from the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 11 1 Department of Commerce. 2 3 MR. DEWHIRST: David Dewhirst from the Department of Commerce. 4 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Will the court 5 reporter please swear in the witness. 6 Whereupon, 7 JOHN GORE, Global Objection 401/403 8 being first duly sworn or affirmed to testify to 9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 10 truth, was examined and testified as follows: 11 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR 12 THE NEW YORK IMMIGRATION COALITION 13 BY MR. HO: 14 Q. Mr. Gore, have you been deposed before? 15 A. No. 16 Q. But you have been in depositions before, 17 correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Roughly how many times have you attended 20 a deposition? 21 A. Ten. 22 Q. You understand that you're under oath Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 12 1 under penalty of perjury today? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. Is there any reason you can't testify 4 truthfully today? 5 A. No. 6 Q. I'm just going to go over a few ground 7 rules. Is that okay? 8 A. Sure. 9 Q. So the first one is, please respond 10 verbally when I ask you a question, because the 11 court reporter can't record things like gestures 12 or grunts or uh-huhs. Is that okay? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. So the court reporter can take everything 15 down. I'm just going to ask that you wait until I 16 finish asking a question before you start 17 answering, and I'll do the same and try not to cut 18 you off. Okay? 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. If you ever want to take a break, that's 21 okay. The one exception to that is if I've posed 22 a question to you, I'd ask that you answer that Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 13 1 question before we take the break. Is that okay? 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. What did you do to prepare for your 4 5 deposition? A. I met with various lawyers of the 6 Department of Justice and reviewed some documents 7 that I understand to have been produced in the 8 litigation. 9 Q. 10 What documents did you review? MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for the 11 disclosure of information subject to the work 12 product protection. 13 answer. 14 BY MR. HO: 15 16 Q. I instruct the witness not to Have you reviewed any deposition transcripts in this case? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Have you reviewed any expert reports in 19 this case? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Which expert reports have you reviewed? 22 A. I reviewed an expert report submitted by Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 14 1 Dr. Lisa Handley and also one submitted by Pam 2 Karlan. 3 Q. Are you aware of topics that were covered 4 in any of the depositions in any of the litigation 5 over the citizenship question? 6 MR. GARDNER: 7 Objection. Vague. BY MR. HO: 8 Q. You can answer. 9 A. No, I don't believe so. 10 Q. Did you consult with any staff in the 11 civil rights division such as voting section chief 12 Chris Herren in preparation for your deposition? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Who did you consult with in the civil 15 rights division in preparation for your 16 deposition? 17 A. Chris Herren. 18 Q. Anyone else? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Before you began working at DOJ, you were 21 22 an attorney in private practice, correct? A. Yes. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 15 1 Q. And as an attorney in private practice, 2 you litigated some cases involving claims under 3 Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You're familiar with the term citizen 6 voting age population, the acronym C-V-A-P, or 7 what I'll refer to as CVAP today? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you're familiar with the term ACS for 10 American Community Survey? 11 A. I am. 12 Q. You're familiar with the first 13 precondition for Section 2 liability under 14 Thornburg versus Gingles? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And one way of describing the first 17 Gingles precondition for Section 2 liability under 18 the Voting Rights Act is that plaintiffs must 19 demonstrate that racial minorities are 20 sufficiently numerous so as to form a majority of 21 a compact single-member district. 22 understanding? Is that your Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 16 1 A. That's -- more or less. Yeah. 2 Q. Prior to coming to the Department of 3 Justice, with respect to all of the cases that you 4 litigated under Section 2 of the Voting Rights 5 Act, you represented defendants, correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. In all of your experience representing 8 defendants in cases under Section 2 of the Voting 9 Rights Act, you never took the position that the 10 plaintiffs block-level CVAP data was insufficient 11 to establish the first Gingles precondition 12 because it was a statistical estimate, correct? 13 A. When I was in private practice, I was 14 representing a client, so my clients took various 15 positions. 16 positions on behalf of clients in court. 17 recall an instance where a client of mine took 18 that position. 19 Q. And as a lawyer, I pursued those I can't And in all of your experience litigating 20 cases under Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act, 21 you're not aware of, in any of your cases, a 22 situation where a court held that block-level CVAP Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 401 Page 17 1 data was insufficient to satisfy the first Gingles 2 precondition because it was a statistical 3 estimate, correct? 4 A. 5 involved in? 6 Q. That's correct. 7 A. As a litigant or as attorney? 8 Q. As an attorney. 9 A. As an attorney. 10 11 You're talking about cases I actually was No, I'm not aware of any such case. Q. Do you have any experience drawing 12 districts for purposes of complying with the first 13 Gingles precondition? 14 A. That's a -- that's a fair question. In 15 one of our cases, we did have a case that went to 16 a remedial phase. 17 in drawing the district, but I was certainly 18 involved in reviewing various remedial proposals 19 and other proposals that were submitted to the 20 court in the course of litigation. 21 22 401 Q. I wouldn't say I was involved So let me clarify my question. My question is about the technical aspects of Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 401 Page 18 1 actually getting the census data, taking the 2 mapping software, and drawing a district. 3 4 5 6 7 You don't have any experience doing that, correct? A. That's correct. I've never sat in front of a computer with Maptitude and drawn a district. Q. Okay. You don't have any experience -- 8 so that would mean you don't have any experience 9 drawing districts using ACS data, correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And you don't have any experience taking 12 census block-group level data and performing an 13 estimation procedure to produce block-level data, 14 correct? 15 A. No, I don't have that experience. 16 Q. You're currently acting assistant 17 attorney general for civil rights at the U.S. 18 Department of Justice, correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And when did you become the acting AAG 21 22 for civil rights? A. July 28th, 2018. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 401 Page 19 1 2 Q. In that position, you are the head of the civil rights division, correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. And you're a political appointee; you're 5 not career civil rights division staff, correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. One of the sections under your purview 8 within the civil rights division is the voting 9 section, correct? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. And one of the duties of the voting 12 section is to enforce Section 2 of the federal 13 Voting Rights Act of 1965, correct? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Is it fair to say that, as acting AAG for 16 civil rights, you are authorized to speak on 17 behalf of the civil rights division? 18 A. I think with respect to matters that fall 19 within the purview of the civil rights division 20 and the Office of the Assistant Attorney General 21 for the civil rights division, that's correct, as 22 a general matter. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 20 1 Q. You take your interactions with DOJ staff 2 from outside of the civil rights division 3 seriously, right? 4 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Vague. 5 THE WITNESS: I take all of my 6 interactions in a professional capacity 7 professionally and, hopefully, seriously as well. 8 BY MR. HO: 9 Q. When you interact with DOJ staff who are 10 not members of the civil rights division, you are 11 in some sense acting as a representative of the 12 civil rights division in those interactions with 13 non-civil rights division DOJ staff, correct? 14 A. Not necessarily. In certain cases that 15 would be true, but there are instances in which 16 that wouldn't necessarily be correct. 17 Q. The Department of Justice sent a letter 18 to the Census Bureau on December 12th, 2017, 19 requesting that a citizenship question be included 20 on the 2020 decennial census questionnaire, 21 correct? 22 A. I have no basis to dispute the date Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 21 1 there. 2 Whether it was December 12th -- I believe that's 3 correct, but I don't have the letter in front of 4 me, so I can't testify to that date necessarily. 5 But yes, there was a letter that was sent in that 6 time frame from the Department of Justice to the 7 Census Bureau. 8 9 Q. Yes, the department did send a letter. There's no other reason besides Voting Rights Act enforcement that formed the basis of 10 the Department of Justice's request that a 11 citizenship question be added to the 2020 12 decennial census questionnaire, correct? 13 MR. GARDNER: Objection to the extent it 14 calls for the disclosure of information subject to 15 the deliberative process privilege. 16 To the extent you can answer the question 17 without divulging such information, you may do so. 18 Otherwise, I instruct you not to answer. 19 THE WITNESS: 20 for itself. 21 me. I think the letter speaks Again, I don't have it in front of 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 22 1 2 BY MR. HO: Q. The letter does not express any reason 3 for requesting a citizenship question be added to 4 the 2020 decennial census questionnaire besides 5 Voting Rights Act enforcement, correct? 6 A. 7 itself. 8 me, so I can't say what it does or doesn't say. 9 Again, I think the letter speaks for And I don't have a copy of it in front of (Gore Deposition Exhibit 1 marked for 10 identification and attached to the 11 transcript.) 12 13 BY MR. HO: Q. I'm going to show you something that's 14 been marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit -- as, sorry, 15 Exhibit 1. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. This is an e-mail from you to Arthur Gary 18 dated December 18th, 2017, correct? 19 A. It appears to be. 20 Q. The subject line of this e-mail is 21 22 Yes. talking points, correct? A. Correct. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 23 1 Q. And these are talking points that you 2 e-mailed to Mr. Gary concerning the Department of 3 Justice's request to include a citizenship 4 question on the decennial census questionnaire, 5 correct? 6 A. I'm sorry. 7 Q. Sure. Can you repeat that question? These are talking points that you 8 e-mailed to Mr. Gary concerning the Department of 9 Justice's request to include a citizenship 10 question on the decennial census questionnaire, 11 correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. The fourth bullet here reads, "The 14 Department of Justice is not seeking any 15 information about any individual citizenship 16 status from the Census Bureau. 17 department is seeking the most complete and 18 accurate data regarding total citizenship rates in 19 voting districts that the Census Bureau can 20 provide. 21 fulfill its commitment of fully and robustly 22 enforcing the Voting Rights Act." Rather, the The data will allow the department to Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 24 1 Did I read that correctly? 2 A. Yes, you did. 3 Q. You agree that the department is seeking 4 the most complete and accurate data regarding 5 total citizenship rates in voting districts that 6 the Census Bureau can provide, correct? 7 A. Yes, that's correct. 8 Q. And do you believe that the letter from 9 the Department of Justice to the Census Bureau 10 requesting the inclusion of a citizenship question 11 is consistent with the department's goal of 12 seeking the most complete and accurate data 13 regarding total citizenship rates that the Census 14 Bureau can provide? 15 A. I think it's consistent with that 16 objective, but is not the full picture of the data 17 that the Department of Justice would use and would 18 want to have at its disposal. 19 Q. When you say that it is not the full 20 picture of the data that the Department of Justice 21 would use and want to have, what did you mean by 22 that? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 25 1 A. Well, what I mean is there are various 2 sources of data on citizenship. 3 world, we live in a data-driven world. 4 Department of Justice is always trying to find the 5 best possible data, whether it's from one source 6 or multiple sources, to analyze jurisdictions for 7 potential Section 2 violations and to bring 8 appropriate Section 2 enforcement actions. 9 And in the modern And the And the letter lays out reasons why -- is 10 my recollection -- reasons why collecting data 11 from the census questionnaire, in addition to 12 other sources, would be an appropriate means for 13 the Department of Justice to collect the best 14 possible total data that it could collect. 15 Q. What are the other sources other than the 16 decennial census questionnaire that you're 17 referring to for the collection of citizenship 18 data? 19 A. We already have a citizenship question on 20 the ACS. And there may be other sources that I'm 21 not aware of, but that's the source that comes to 22 mind. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 26 1 Q. Okay. Decennial census questionnaire, 2 American Community Survey. 3 sources, are there other sources of citizenship 4 data that you're aware of that the Department of 5 Justice could rely on for purposes of Section 2 6 enforcement? 7 A. Not that I'm aware of. 8 Q. You agree that having the most complete 9 Besides those two and accurate data regarding citizenship rates that 10 the Census Bureau could provide would allow the 11 department to fulfill its commitment to robustly 12 enforcing the Voting Rights Act? 13 A. Yes, I do. 14 Q. I want to show you another document. 15 It's been pre-marked as Exhibit 2. 16 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 2 marked for 17 identification and attached to the 18 transcript.) 19 20 BY MR. HO: Q. This is a Bloomberg transcript of your 21 testimony on May 21, 2018, before the House 22 Oversight Committee. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 401 Page 27 1 Do you remember your testimony that day? 2 A. I do. 3 Q. You were under oath that day under 4 penalty of perjury, correct? 5 A. I was. 6 Q. And you testified truthfully that day, 7 correct? 8 A. I did. 9 Q. Now, although you testified before the 10 House Oversight Committee on May 21st, you were 11 previously called to testify before the committee 12 on -- I'm sorry; I may have said the wrong -- no, 13 I said the right date. Let me start that again. 14 A. Go ahead. 15 Q. Although you testified before the House 16 Oversight Committee on May 21st, you were 17 previously called to testify before the committee 18 on May 8th, 2018, correct? 19 A. That's actually not correct. I was never 20 called to testify before the committee. I was 21 invited to testify. 22 testify on May 8th alongside witnesses from the The committee invited me to Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 401 Page 28 1 Census Bureau. 2 minority members of the committee added a 3 non-government witness to that witness panel that 4 day. 5 Department of Justice not to provide a witness 6 where a non-government witness is also testifying, 7 both as a matter of professional courtesy and 8 because certain privileges and policies of the 9 Department of Justice can limit the testimony of a 10 And at the last minute, the It's longstanding policy and practice of the Department of Justice witness before Congress. 11 And so the department made the decision 12 that I would not appear that day on May 8th as 13 part a panel of five witnesses. 14 go on May 21st as the only witness and be 15 questioned by the committee for the full time of 16 the hearing. 17 Q. 18 Instead, I got to That must have been a lot of fun to be the only witness that day. 19 A. I enjoyed the experience. 20 Q. So I'm not -- my question wasn't so much 21 about the reasons. 22 timeline. It was just about the You were invited to testify on May 8th, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 29 1 but you ended up not testifying on May 8th, 2 correct? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. And you're aware that when you didn't 5 testify on May 8th, the chairman of the oversight 6 committee, Representative Gowdy, stated that he 7 would ask you to appear by legal compulsory -- is 8 how he put it -- if necessary. 9 You're aware of that? 10 A. That sounds right. Yeah. 11 Q. And so when you did appear on May 21st, 12 you understood that it was an important hearing, 13 right? 14 A. I believe that -- I would hope that every 15 hearing before Congress is an important hearing. 16 Yeah. 17 Q. We would all hope. 18 You wanted to make sure that your 19 testimony on May 21st was accurate, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you wanted to make sure that -- to 22 the extent you could discuss the issues that were Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 401 Page 30 1 raised that day, you wanted to make sure that your 2 testimony was complete, right? 3 A. Yes, to the extent I was able to testify 4 about matters consistent with Department of 5 Justice policy and privileges. 6 Q. And you didn't want to leave anything 7 important out of your testimony on May 21st, 8 correct? 9 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 10 THE WITNESS: I think that's largely Form. 11 correct, although again, there were strict limits 12 on the testimony that I could give, the topics 13 that I was authorized to discuss, and how I could 14 go about answering questions. 15 BY MR. HO: 16 Q. 17 21st. 18 right? You prepared for your testimony on May You didn't just show up without preparing, 19 A. I prepared. 20 Q. And you held a moot to prepare for your 21 22 401 Yeah. testimony on May 21st, right? A. That sounds right. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 401 Page 31 1 2 Q. And among the people you invited to the moot was Ben Aguinaga, right? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Mr. Aguinaga wrote the first draft of 5 6 your written statement for the hearing, correct? A. I don't have any document in front of me 7 to confirm that. 8 Mr. Aguinaga at the time was serving as my chief 9 of staff. 10 Q. That's certainly possible. Among the people you invited to your moot 11 also was Mr. Brett Shumate, who's with us today, 12 correct? 13 A. Yeah, I believe Brett was there. 14 Q. And Mr. Shumate, he's the deputy 15 assistant attorney general in the federal programs 16 branch of the civil division at DOJ, correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. You didn't invite any career voting 19 20 section staff to your moot, correct? A. I actually don't know that I had the 21 power to invite people. The invitations would 22 have gone out from the Office of Legislative Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 32 1 Affairs. 2 did not invite. 3 were there, but I don't know who they all did or 4 did not invite. 5 Q. And I can't speak for who they did or I can remember some people who You're not aware of any voting section 6 staff being invited to participate in your moot to 7 prepare for the May 21st hearing, correct? 8 A. To the -- I think that's correct. 9 Q. And no career voting section staff 10 attended your moot on -- to prepare for the May 11 21st hearing, correct? 12 13 14 A. That's correct, although voting section staff did help me prepare for the hearing. Q. So I want to ask about your testimony. 15 If you could turn to page 20 of the Bloomberg 16 transcript, Exhibit 2. 17 A. Sure. 18 Q. So on the top of the page, I believe you 19 testified, "Let me just be clear, Congressman, 20 there's no dispute that the Department of Justice 21 needs citizenship voting population data to 22 enforce Section 2 or that it needs that data at Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 401 Page 33 1 the block level." 2 It's still your view that the Department 3 of Justice needs citizen voting age population 4 data at the census block level to enforce 5 Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act, correct? 6 A. Yes, in some form or another. The 7 citizenship data at the block level is necessary 8 to bring Section 2 cases. 9 10 Q. And the census block is the smallest unit of census geography, right? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q. The next sentence of your testimony 13 reads, "And our letter explains why hard count 14 census data would be better suited for that 15 purpose than the ACS. 16 it's already available at the block level and more 17 accurate because it's hard count and not a" -- and 18 then you were interrupted. 19 It's easier to use because When you say hard count census data, 20 you're drawing a distinction between an actual 21 count, like the decennial census enumeration, and 22 statistical estimates based on a sample survey Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 34 1 like the ACS, correct? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Okay. And your testimony is that hard 4 count data is preferable to available statistical 5 estimates, like the ACS, for purposes of VRA 6 enforcement, correct? 7 A. Yes. And I think what I was testifying 8 to here is what's in the letter, which again, is 9 not in front of me. But my recollection of the 10 letter is that it laid out reasons why that hard 11 count data would be more appropriate than an ACS 12 estimate for that purpose. 13 Q. How about -- turn to page 27 of the 14 transcript. 15 27, you testified, "And having more -- having it 16 on the census would make it easier for us to use 17 and it would also make it more accurate, or at 18 least that's the judgment of the Census Bureau." 19 20 21 22 In the first full paragraph on page When you referred to the judgment of the Census Bureau, what were you referring to? A. I think I was referring to two things. First of all, I was -- I only know anything about Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 35 1 the judgment of the Census Bureau from publicly 2 available information. 3 memo of decision with respect to the letter that 4 the Department of Justice submitted in which he 5 decided, among other things, to order 6 reinstatement of the citizenship question on the 7 census questionnaire. 8 Secretary Ross issued a I also had watched at least portions of 9 the May 8th hearing before the committee that you 10 referenced earlier, and understood from testimony 11 at that hearing that that was the position of the 12 Census Bureau. 13 Q. So when you say the judgment of the 14 Census Bureau, whose judgment, if you could 15 identify individuals, are you referring to? 16 A. Secretary Ross would be one. And the 17 other would be -- I can't remember who it was who 18 testified at the hearing, but it was whoever 19 testified at the hearing about the accuracy of a 20 hard count versus an estimate. 21 Ron Jarmin or somebody else. 22 remember. It may have been I just can't Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 36 1 Q. May 8th -- the May 8th hearing? 2 A. The May 8th hearing, yeah. 3 Q. And when you say Ron Jarmin, you're 4 referring to the acting director of the Census 5 Bureau? 6 A. 7 8 9 That's who I understand he is. I've never met him. Q. When you testified that it was the judgment of the Census Bureau that CVAP data 10 collected through the decennial enumeration would 11 be more accurate, what did you mean by more 12 accurate? 13 A. As I understand the judgment of the 14 Census Bureau, it's that the hard count would be 15 more accurate than an ACS estimate because an ACS 16 estimate has a margin of error associated with it 17 and also requires an extrapolation because, as 18 you're no doubt aware, the ACS estimates are only 19 released at the block group level, and so further 20 extrapolation is required to estimate CVAP levels 21 at the block level. 22 And it was my understanding, from Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 37 1 Secretary Ross' memo and the testimony that I 2 believe I heard on May 8th, that the Census Bureau 3 believed that a hard count would be more accurate 4 than estimates of an extrapolation with an 5 associated margin of error. 6 Q. And just so we're clear on your 7 understanding, your understanding is that, in the 8 judgment of the Census Bureau, it would be more 9 accurate to have CVAP data collected through the 10 decennial enumeration than the existing ACS data 11 for two reasons: 12 data is a hard count and not an estimate; and, 13 two, the decennial enumeration data is available 14 at the census block level, and so you wouldn't 15 have to perform an estimation procedure the same 16 way that you do with the ACS; is that right? One, the decennial enumeration 17 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Compound. 18 THE WITNESS: As I understand your 19 question, I believe that was Secretary Ross' 20 judgment on behalf of the Department of Commerce, 21 of which the Census Bureau is part. 22 his memo right in front of me, so I can't -- I'm I don't have Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 38 1 going off of my memory rather than a document 2 that's in front of me. 3 that is that he analyzed a number of different 4 options and concluded that reinstating the 5 question on the census questionnaire, in addition 6 to other data, would provide the most accurate and 7 complete picture of data for the Department of 8 Justice's purposes. 9 BY MR. HO: 10 Q. But my recollection of Now, all things being equal, the 11 Department of Justice would want to use the CVAP 12 data that was, in the Census Bureau's view, the 13 more accurate data available, correct? 14 A. I think that's probably correct. I guess 15 I could imagine a scenario, which I don't know is 16 present here or not, where we would make a 17 different judgment as to what was more accurate 18 than the Census Bureau might. 19 Q. But that's correct. When you say we would make a different 20 judgment as to what is more accurate than the 21 Census Bureau might, who's we? 22 A. The Department of Justice. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 39 1 Q. Who's we at the Department of Justice who 2 is in a position to make an assessment as to 3 whether or not CVAP data is more accurate than the 4 Census Bureau? 5 A. I don't know. I can't point to any 6 individual person. But, of course, we're 7 constantly reviewing the data, the various data 8 sources, the academic literature. 9 to conferences so that we can understand the We send people 10 latest about data in this area and other 11 demographic areas. 12 But I don't believe there's any dispute 13 at this point about what would be more accurate. 14 And the Census Bureau is charged to make that 15 judgment, as I understand it, as a matter of law. 16 Q. Do you think you're better situated than 17 career Census Bureau professionals to make an 18 assessment as to the accuracy of various forms of 19 CVAP data? 20 A. Me personally? 21 MR. GARDNER: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: Me personally? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 40 1 BY MR. HO: 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. No, I don't. 4 Q. Let's look at page 2 of your testimony. 5 6 7 Oh, I'm sorry -A. It appears to be a list of the committee members' names. 8 Q. Yeah. 9 A. I'm happy to review that. 10 Q. We'll come back to that. 11 Let's look at page 37 of your testimony. 12 So the second-to-last question here is from 13 Representative Krishnamoorthi. 14 "Let me shift to another issue, which is, is the 15 DOJ aware of any study, analysis, or projection of 16 how the inclusion of the citizenship question will 17 affect the response rate for the census?" 18 And he asks you, Your response was, "That's a great 19 question, Congressman. I don't know the 20 Department of Justice is aware of that. 21 really a question for the Department of Commerce 22 and the Census Bureau, since it is the Secretary That's Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 41 1 of Commerce's province to decide which questions 2 get included or are not within the bounds set by 3 law." 4 5 When Representative Krishnamoorthi used the term -- 6 7 A. Can you read the rest of my answer for completeness? 8 Q. "My understanding is that, from Secretary 9 Ross' memo, that he took a hard look at that issue 10 and didn't find empirical evidence to suggest that 11 the question would lead to a reduction in response 12 rates. 13 he issued. 14 behalf." 15 That's based on the memo of decision that I obviously can't speak on his Did I read that right? 16 A. Thank you. Yes. 17 Q. When the representative uses the term 18 "response rates," what did you understand him to 19 mean? 20 A. I understood him to be suggesting that 21 adding a question and, in particular, reinstating 22 a citizenship question might cause people not -- Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 42 1 some incremental number of people not to answer 2 the -- that question or fill out the census form. 3 Q. And your testimony was, on May 21st, that 4 DOJ was not aware of any analysis indicating that 5 the inclusion of the citizenship question will 6 affect response rates to the census? 7 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 8 Mischaracterizes the document. 9 THE WITNESS: I think what I've testified 10 to is -- is what is here in the record, and that 11 answer speaks for itself. 12 BY MR. HO: 13 Q. Well, what did you mean by that? Were 14 you aware of any analysis as to whether or not 15 including the citizenship question on the census 16 could affect the rate at which the people respond 17 to the census? 18 A. As I said then, and as I sit here today, 19 no, I'm not aware of any -- any data on that 20 issue. 21 in his memo explains that he took a hard look at 22 that issue and found no empirical evidence to And as I further explained, Secretary Ross Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 43 1 support the conclusion that there be a reduction 2 in response rates from reinstatement of the 3 citizenship question on the census questionnaire. 4 Q. One more question about your testimony 5 for now. On page 27, the last question on the 6 page from Representative Gowdy: 7 Secretary Ross wanted to include a question, 8 what's your favorite movie, how would a court 9 determine whether or not that was an appropriate "So if 10 question? 11 what is the standard by which you judge the 12 legitimacy of the inclusion or exclusion of a 13 question on the census form?" 14 I mean, I guess what I'm getting at is, Your response: 15 good question. 16 the commerce department. 17 litigation. 18 you got cut off. 19 "I think that is a very It's probably better directed to I'm not involved in the That's being handled out" -- and then What do you mean when you testified on 20 May 21st that you're not involved in the 21 litigation over the citizenship question? 22 A. I am not a counsel of record in that Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 401 Page 44 1 case. I have not been involved in litigating that 2 case on behalf of the United States. 3 written any of the briefs, filed any of the 4 pleadings, or done anything like that. 5 witness in the case, obviously here -- sitting 6 here today, and was involved in the decision that 7 was made by the Department of Justice. 8 9 I have not I am a But under Department of Justice regulations, this is defensive litigation that's 10 being handled by the civil division, and the 11 counsel of record is in the civil division, not 12 the civil rights division. 13 Q. When you say that you're not counsel of 14 record, are you counsel in some other capacity in 15 this litigation? 16 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 17 THE WITNESS: No. 18 19 20 Vague. BY MR. HO: Q. And you're not a party in this case, right? 21 A. No. 22 Q. And neither the civil rights division nor Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 401 Page 45 1 the Department of Justice itself is a party in 2 this case, correct? 3 A. That's my understanding. I believe the 4 case was brought against the Department of 5 Commerce, but I've not studied the pleadings 6 closely enough to know whether or not the 7 Department of Justice is a party, but I believe 8 it's not. 9 Q. And you wouldn't describe yourself as a 10 consultant giving legal advice to counsel of 11 record in this case, would you? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Mr. Gore, you sometimes use personal 14 e-mail, text messages or private messaging apps to 15 communicate about DOJ work, correct? 16 A. I believe I may have done that. 17 Q. Which of those things have you used for 18 19 20 21 22 Yeah. DOJ work before? A. Well, actually, I don't think I have used it for DOJ work, now that I think about it. Q. You've sometimes sent e-mails between your personal gmail account and your DOJ account, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 46 1 correct? 2 A. I have done that, yes. 3 Q. Okay. 4 5 Under what circumstances have you done that? A. So I had -- there was FOIA request that 6 came in to the Department of Justice related to 7 communications with a member of the Election 8 Assistance Commission. 9 with that person that I viewed having occurred in I had had some e-mails 10 my personal capacity and not in my DOJ capacity. 11 But for the sake of completeness, I forwarded 12 those e-mails to my DOJ account so they could be 13 produced in response to a FOIA request. 14 Q. Under no other circumstances have you 15 forwarded e-mails back and forth between your 16 Department of Justice account and your gmail 17 account? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. You've never used your gmail account for 20 anything related to the citizenship question on 21 the census? 22 A. Absolutely not. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 47 1 2 Q. I want to show you a document which we'll mark as Exhibit 3. 3 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 3 marked for 4 identification and attached to the 5 transcript.) 6 7 BY MR. HO: Q. This bears the Bates number 000311. It's 8 a letter dated November 4th, 2016, from Arthur 9 Gary to then Census Bureau Director John Thompson. 10 We discussed Mr. Gary before. You sent 11 him those talking points in December of 2017, 12 right? 13 A. I did. Yes. 14 Q. And Mr. Gary is the general counsel of 15 the justice management division, or JMD, at the 16 Department of Justice, correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And JMD is the principal organizational 19 unit responsible for management and administrative 20 support of the Department of Justice, correct? 21 22 A. I trust you took that off of a website, because that was pretty fancy. That sounds right Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 802 Page 48 1 2 to me. Q. It's my understanding. In his first sentence, Mr. Gary writes to 3 Mr. Thompson, "This letter supplements my letter 4 of July 1st, 2016, in which I advised that, at 5 that time, the Department of Justice had no needs 6 to amend the current content or uses or to request 7 new content in the American Community Survey (ACS) 8 for the 2020 census." 9 Did I read that right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. On July 1, 2016, DOJ sent a letter to the 12 Census Bureau indicating that it had no need to 13 amend the current content or to request new 14 content in the ACS for the 2020 census, correct? 15 16 17 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Lack of foundation. THE WITNESS: I have no basis to answer 18 that question. 19 department on July 1, 2016. 20 I've ever seen a July 1, 2016, letter from the 21 department to the Census Bureau. 22 I wasn't employed at the And I don't believe That's certainly what that sentence says, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601/ 802 Page 49 1 but I can't verify or testify to that. 2 firsthand knowledge on that topic. 3 BY MR. HO: 4 Q. I have no You're not aware of the Department of 5 Justice, on July 1st, 2016, requesting new content 6 for the American Community Survey or the 2020 7 decennial census, are you, Mr. Gore? 8 9 MR. GARDNER: 12 Lack of foundation. 10 11 Objection. THE WITNESS: I don't believe I am, no. BY MR. HO: Q. This letter on November 4th, 2016, 13 formally requested that the Census Bureau include 14 a new topic in the ACS relating to LGBT 15 populations, correct? 16 A. Let me read this. 17 Q. Sure. 18 A. Okay. Can you repeat your question? 19 Q. Sure. This November 4th, 2016, letter 20 formally requested that the Census Bureau include 21 a topic on the ACS relating to LGBT populations, 22 correct? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601/ 802 Page 50 1 2 MR. GARDNER: 5 Lack of foundation. 3 4 Objection. THE WITNESS: It appears to. Yeah. BY MR. HO: Q. This letter on November 4th, 2016, makes 6 no other requests for changes to the 2020 census 7 questionnaire or the ACS, correct? 8 9 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Lack of foundation. 10 THE WITNESS: Again, it doesn't -- what 11 I've read so far doesn't mention any other 12 request. 13 BY MR. HO: 14 15 16 Q. When you say what you've read so far, have you read the complete letter? A. I've read the complete letter. There's a 17 reference to an attached spreadsheet in the letter 18 that's not attached here, so I haven't looked at 19 that just now. 20 Q. Okay. But the face of this letter does 21 not make requests for any additional information 22 on either the ACS or the 2020 census questionnaire Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601/ 802 Page 51 1 other than a request about LGBT populations for 2 the ACS, correct? 3 4 MR. GARDNER: Objection. THE WITNESS: That appears to be correct 6 on the face of the letter. 7 BY MR. HO: 9 Lack of foundation. 5 8 Q. This letter does not make any mention of a request for citizenship data, correct? 10 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. 11 THE WITNESS: It does not on its face. 12 13 Q. This letter does not make any request for the inclusion of a citizenship question on the 15 census questionnaire, correct? 16 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. 17 THE WITNESS: It does not appear to. 19 601/ 802 BY MR. HO: 14 18 601/ 802 BY MR. HO: Q. You're not aware of any changes in 20 circumstances since the date of this letter, 21 November 4th, 2016, that would require a change to 22 the Department of Justice's view that, as of the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601/ 802 Page 52 1 date of this letter, DOJ had no other needs to 2 amend the current content or to request new 3 content for the 2020 census, correct? 4 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: I have to admit, I couldn't 6 follow your question. 7 BY MR. HO: 8 9 Q. Sure. Form. Can you try again? You're not aware of any changes of circumstances since the date of this letter, 10 November 4th, 2016, that would change the 11 Department of Justice's view that there are no -- 12 there is no need to amend the current content or 13 request new content for the 2020 census, correct? 14 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. 15 THE WITNESS: Again, to the extent I can 16 follow your question, I don't know since I was not 17 employed at the Department of Justice in 18 November of 2016. 19 the Department of Justice had even looked into 20 this question of whether a citizenship question 21 should be reinstated on the census questionnaire. 22 So I don't know what thinking went into this I don't know whether anyone at Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 53 1 letter or didn't go into this letter. 2 can't speak to any changes of circumstances from 3 then. 4 And so I What I can tell you is the Department of 5 Justice made the determination that it made and 6 submitted its request to the Census Bureau for the 7 reasons that are laid out in the Gary letter. 8 BY MR. HO: 9 Q. So my question isn't about the Department 10 of Justice's thinking or anything that may have 11 changed with respect to the Department of 12 Justice's thinking. It's a question about -- 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. -- changes in circumstances outside of 15 the Department of Justice -- 16 A. Can you specify what those circumstances 17 are? 18 question. 19 That's what I don't understand from your Q. Sure. Are there any changes in law that 20 you're aware of since November 4th, 2016, that 21 would require a change to the citizenship -- to 22 the census questionnaire? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 54 1 2 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 3 Objection. Form. Lack of foundation. THE WITNESS: What -- I'm still not 4 following the circumstances. 5 BY MR. HO: 6 Q. Let me -- let me try again. 7 A. Can you specify? 8 Q. Are you aware of any changes in law since 9 November 4th, 2016, with respect to requirements 10 for enforcing Section 2 of the federal Voting 11 Rights Act? 12 13 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 14 Objection. Form. Lack of foundation. THE WITNESS: I do believe -- since 15 November of 2016, I can think of at least one 16 Supreme Court case dealing with Section 2 of the 17 Voting Rights Act. 18 you're asking, but I am aware of court cases that 19 have been decided since November of 2016 on that 20 issue. 21 BY MR. HO: 22 Q. I'm not sure this is what Are you aware of any changes in law since Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 55 1 November 4th, 2016, with respect to the data that 2 plaintiffs can rely on to establish the first 3 Gingles precondition for Section 2 liability under 4 the Voting Rights Act? 5 6 7 A. I'm not aware of any changes in law on that point, I don't believe. Q. Are you aware of any changes to the forms 8 of data available to plaintiffs bringing voting 9 rights challenges since November 4th of 2016? 10 MR. GARDNER: Objection to form. 11 THE WITNESS: I do believe, at least in 12 one case, the Department of Justice has advocated 13 a new form of data for conducting a racially 14 polarized voting analysis in the Eastpointe case, 15 United States versus Eastpointe, Michigan, which 16 at least the United States had not previously 17 advocated. 18 steps 2 and 3 of the Gingles analysis. 19 BY MR. HO: 20 21 22 Q. That's the analysis conducted at My question is just about the first Gingles precondition. A. Okay. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 56 1 Q. Are you aware of any changes to the forms 2 of citizenship data available to plaintiffs 3 bringing Voting Rights Act claims in order to 4 satisfy the first Gingles precondition? 5 A. I'm not aware of any changes in the forms 6 of data. I guess what I'm struggling with on your 7 question is I don't think that that forecloses a 8 request to reinstate the citizenship question on 9 the census questionnaire. 10 Q. That's not my question. 11 A. So what the department is looking for is NonResponsive 12 the most complete and accurate data it can 13 possibly have to perform it function, and this is 14 one more source of data that would allow the 15 Department of Justice to carry out its enforcement 16 mission. 17 Q. I understand what your position is on why 18 you've requested the data. 19 question. That's not my My question is -- 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. -- just about any changes since 22 November 4th of 2016 outside of the Department of Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 57 1 Justice. 2 And my question is, are you aware of any 3 changes in the forms of citizenship data that are 4 available for establishing the first precondition 5 for Gingles -- the first Gingles precondition for 6 Section 2 liability since November 4th, 2016? 7 A. Let me give you this answer. As I 8 understand what people were using in Section 2 9 cases in November of 2016 for citizenship 10 purposes, it was ACS data. 11 litigants are still using ACS data today. 12 Q. And I understand that Are you aware of any changes in the 13 social sciences about the assessment in that 14 community of the accuracy of citizenship estimates 15 based on ACS data since November 4th, 2016? 16 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 17 THE WITNESS: Which community? 18 Form. BY MR. HO: 19 Q. The social scientific community. 20 A. Okay. 21 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of any Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601 Page 58 1 changes. I am aware that there are questions that 2 have been raised in the social science community 3 about the accuracy of the estimates and 4 extrapolations that are derived from the ACS data. 5 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 4 marked for 6 identification and attached to the 7 transcript.) 8 9 BY MR. HO: Q. I'm going to show you a document, 10 Exhibit 4. 11 September 8th, 2017, from Earl Comstock to 12 Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross. 13 administrative record in this case. 14 printout doesn't bear the number, I believe it is 15 AR12756. 16 This is a memo data November -- It's in the Although this Do you know Mr. Comstock? 17 A. No, I don't, actually. 18 Q. The first paragraph of Mr. Comstock's 19 memo reads, "In early May, Eric Branstad put me in 20 touch with Mary Blanche Hankey as the White House 21 liaison in the Department of Justice. 22 Blanche worked for AG Sessions in his senate Mary Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601 Page 59 1 office and came with him to the Department of 2 Justice. 3 citizenship question. 4 someone at the department who could address the 5 issue. 6 McHenry in the Department of Justice." 7 We met in person to discuss the She said she would locate A few days later, she directed me to James Now, before I read that, were you aware 8 that sometime prior to September 8th, 2017, 9 officials from the Department of Commerce had 10 spoken with officials within the Department of 11 Justice regarding the issue of a citizenship 12 question on the census? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What were you aware of with respect to 15 conversations between Department of Commerce 16 officials and the Department of Justice officials 17 prior to September 8th, 2017, with respect to the 18 issue of a citizenship question on the census? 19 MR. GARDNER: Objection to the extent 20 that you're asking for information subject to the 21 deliberative process privilege. 22 To the extent you can answer without Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 60 1 divulging information subject to the privilege, 2 you may do so. 3 answer. 4 Otherwise, I instruct you not to THE WITNESS: Can I ask for a 5 clarification? What's the timeline of my 6 awareness? 7 asked me before I read this memo today, and my 8 answer was yes. 9 BY MR. HO: Are you asking me as I sit here -- you 10 Q. Uh-huh. 11 A. And as I sit here today, yes, I was aware 12 that there -- that what's described in this 13 paragraph had occurred. 14 15 Q. When did you become aware of what is described in that paragraph? 16 17 Okay. A. I'm trying to remember. It would have been after the date of this September 8th memo. 18 Q. Would it have been before the date of the 19 Department of Justice's request to include a 20 citizenship question on the census in December of 21 2017? 22 A. I don't recall that. I -- yes, I Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 61 1 think -- I think so, but I'm not certain on -- 2 with respect to the involvement of the people 3 mentioned in this particular paragraph. 4 Q. So your answer is, yes, you think that 5 you were aware of communications between the 6 Department of Justice and the Department of 7 Commerce prior to September 8th, 2017 -- you think 8 you were aware of those conversations before the 9 request letter went out from the Department of 10 Justice to the Census Bureau? 11 A. I'm sorry. 12 Q. Sure. 13 A. You're dealing with two different 14 Could we try that again? The conversations -- timelines. 15 Q. Sure. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. The conversations that occurred that are 18 referenced in this paragraph that happened between 19 Commerce and Justice officials before 20 September 8th, 2017 -- 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. -- you were aware of those conversations Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 62 1 prior to the date when the Department of Justice's 2 letter went to the Census Bureau to request a 3 citizenship question in December of 2017, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. 6 What were you aware of before that letter went out? 7 MR. GARDNER: 8 To the extent you can answer the question 9 Same objection. without divulging information subject to the 10 deliberative process privilege, you may answer. 11 To the extent you can't, I'd instruct the witness 12 not to answer. 13 14 MR. HO: Josh, let me finish the question before your objection -- 15 MR. GARDNER: 16 MR. HO: 17 MR. GARDNER: 18 to interrupt you. 19 BY MR. HO: 20 Q. I thought you were done. -- if that's okay. I apologize. I didn't mean When you say that you were aware of 21 pre-September 8th conversations between Commerce 22 and Justice about the citizenship question before Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 63 1 your letter from Justice to the Census Bureau went 2 out requesting a citizenship question, what were 3 you aware of with respect to the nature of those 4 pre-September 8th conversations? 5 6 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. Same instruction. 7 THE WITNESS: I can tell you that I was 8 aware of the fact that conversations had occurred. 9 And beyond that, I don't believe I can give an 10 answer in light of the instruction I've just 11 received. 12 BY MR. HO: 13 Q. When you say that you were aware of the 14 fact that conversations occurred, what do you mean 15 by conversations? 16 A. I mean -- a conversation is a 17 communication between two or more people, and I 18 was aware that two or more people had talked to 19 each other. 20 Q. When you say that you were aware that two 21 or more people had talked to each other, which 22 people were you aware had talked to each other? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 64 1 A. It was my understanding that somebody 2 from Commerce had spoken to Mary Blanche Hankey, 3 that someone had spoken to James McHenry, and that 4 Secretary Ross had spoken to the attorney general. 5 Q. And that all of those conversations were 6 about the inclusion of a citizenship question on 7 the census? 8 9 10 11 A. I wasn't a party to those conversations, but my understanding is that they would have touched on that issue. Q. James McHenry is the director of the 12 Executive Office for Immigration Review within 13 DOJ, correct? 14 A. He is now, although at that time he 15 wasn't. 16 Office of the Associate Attorney General. 17 had come from somewhere else. 18 I think it was OCAHO, which is -- since we're in 19 D.C. and talking about government things, it's an 20 acronym that -- I don't know what it stands for. 21 But Mr. McHenry has been involved -- has been an 22 employee of the department for some time, but in At that time, he was on detail to the And he I can't remember. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 65 1 early 2017, was on detail to the Office of the 2 Associate Attorney General. 3 4 Q. During this period, Mr. McHenry was not staff in the civil rights division, correct? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. And Mr. McHenry did not have any formal 7 duties with respect to enforcement of the Voting 8 Rights Act during this period, correct? 9 A. He had no formal duties. As I recall, he 10 was for some period of time our point of contact 11 in the Office of the Associate Attorney General, 12 which is why I remember he was there. 13 not have formal duties with respect to 14 enforcement. 15 Q. But he did Do you know of any reasons why 16 Mr. McHenry could address the issue of including a 17 citizenship question on the census? 18 19 20 21 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for speculation. THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'd be speculating. I don't know. 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 66 1 2 BY MR. HO: Q. So you don't know of any reasons why 3 Mr. McHenry could address the issue of including a 4 citizenship question on the census? 5 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. 6 THE WITNESS: I -- I don't know one way 7 or the other. 8 BY MR. HO: 9 Q. When you say you're aware that 10 conversations took place between Commerce 11 officials and Mary Blanche Hankey and James 12 McHenry, what were you aware of with respect to 13 the content of those conversations prior to -- 14 those conversations that took place prior to 15 September 8th, 2017? 16 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 17 To the extent that you can answer that 18 question without divulging information subject to 19 deliberative process privilege, you may do so. 20 Otherwise, I instruct you not to answer. 21 22 THE WITNESS: As I testified before, I understood that those conversations related to the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 67 1 issue of reinstating a citizenship question on the 2 census questionnaire. 3 answer. 4 BY MR. HO: 5 6 7 Q. Beyond that, I can't What was your understanding of who initiated those conversations? A. My understanding was that those 8 conversations were initiated by the Department of 9 Commerce. 10 Q. Those initial conversations that are 11 referred to in this memo, your testimony is that, 12 to the best of your knowledge, those conversations 13 were not initiated by the Department of Justice, 14 correct? 15 A. Again, I wasn't a party to those 16 conversations, but that's been my working 17 understanding. 18 Q. And your working understanding is that 19 the Department of Justice did not reach out to the 20 Department of Commerce to initiate those 21 conversations for the purposes of obtaining better 22 data to enforce the Voting Rights Act, correct? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 68 1 2 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Lack of foundation. 3 THE WITNESS: Again, I wasn't a party to 4 those conversations, but that's been my working 5 understanding. 6 BY MR. HO: 7 Q. The second paragraph in this memo reads, 8 "I spoke several times with James McHenry by phone 9 and, after considering the matter further, James 10 said that Justice staff did not want to raise the 11 question, given the difficulties Justice was 12 encountering in the press at the time, the whole 13 Comey matter. 14 at the Department of Homeland Security." 15 James directed me to Gene Hamilton So were you aware, before I read that, 16 that as of September 8th, 2017, Justice staff did 17 not want to raise the citizenship question? 18 19 20 21 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Lack of foundation. THE WITNESS: Before you read that, yes, I was aware of that. 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601 Page 69 1 2 3 BY MR. HO: Q. Okay. I'm sorry. 4 When did you become aware -- so -- Let me start that question. So your understanding is that, as of 5 September 8th, 2017, Justice staff did not want to 6 raise the citizenship question, correct? 7 A. Yes, that's my understanding, although it 8 wasn't my understanding on September 8th; it was 9 an understanding that I acquired later. 10 Q. When did you acquire the understanding 11 that, as of September 8th, Justice staff did not 12 want to raise the issue of a citizenship question? 13 A. Again, I think it was along the same 14 timeline that I learned that these conversations 15 had taken place, the conversations referenced in 16 the first paragraph and the second paragraph 17 involving Mr. McHenry. 18 aware of those sometime after September 8th and 19 before the letter was sent from the Department of 20 Justice. 21 22 Q. And I believe I became How did you become aware of the fact that, as of September 8th, 2017, the Department of Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 70 1 Justice did not want to raise the issue of the 2 citizenship question? 3 MR. GARDNER: Objection to the extent 4 that that answer calls for the divulging of 5 information subject to deliberative process 6 privilege. 7 To the extent you can answer that 8 question without divulging such information, you 9 may do so. 10 Otherwise, I instruct you not to answer. 11 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 12 instruction, I can't answer. 13 BY MR. HO: 14 Q. Obviously since September 8th, 2017, the 15 Department of Justice has decided to request a 16 citizenship question on the census, right? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Okay. What changed between September 19 8th, 2017, and December 12th, 2017, to lead the 20 Department of Justice to change its view about 21 whether to request a citizenship question to be 22 included on the 2020 census questionnaire? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 71 1 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for 2 information subject to deliberative process 3 privilege. 4 I instruct the witness not to answer. THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 5 instruction, I can't answer. 6 BY MR. HO: 7 Q. When did the Department of Justice begin 8 deliberations over whether to request a 9 citizenship question on the 2020 census? 10 MR. GARDNER: Objection to the extent 11 that question calls for the disclosure of 12 information subject to deliberative process 13 privilege. 14 To the extent you can answer without 15 divulging such information, you may do so. 16 Otherwise, I instruct you not to answer. 17 THE WITNESS: I think the most answer I 18 can give is that I don't know when certain 19 individuals of the Department of Justice may have 20 begun considering that issue. 21 BY MR. HO: 22 Q. Okay. When did you -- what's the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 72 1 earliest date that you're aware of of 2 deliberations within the Department of Justice 3 concerning whether to add a -- to request a 4 citizenship question be included on the 5 2020 census questionnaire? 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. And same instruction. To the extent you can answer without divulging privileged information, you may do so. Otherwise, I instruct you not to answer. THE WITNESS: Okay. Consistent with that instruction, I can't answer. MR. HO: Is your position that the date 14 of when the consideration occurred is covered by 15 deliberative process privilege? 16 MR. GARDNER: My position is that you're 17 asking him to reveal the deliberative process that 18 led to the request, and so that would be 19 pre-decisionally deliberative. 20 question a different way, I'm happy to try to have 21 Mr. Gore answer. 22 obstructionist. If you can ask the I'm not trying to be Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 73 1 2 BY MR. HO: Q. When did you first become involved in 3 deliberations about whether or not to request a 4 citizenship question on the decennial census 5 questionnaire? 6 7 8 9 10 A. I first became involved in either late August or early September of 2017. Q. You can't get more precise than late August or early September? A. Well, I think it was either a day or two 11 before Labor Day in 20 -- the Labor Day weekend in 12 2017 which I think that year may have fallen in 13 late August. 14 Q. So as of September 8th, 2017, the date of 15 Mr. Comstock's memo, your best recollection is 16 that, as of that date, you were already involved 17 in deliberations over whether or not to include a 18 -- to request a citizenship question for the 2020 19 census questionnaire? 20 A. That is correct. And I don't know -- 21 Mr. Comstock's memo is dated September 8th. 22 doesn't give any dates for any of these Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 He Page 74 1 conversations, so I don't know if this memo was 2 contemporaneous to conversations or related back 3 to prior conversations he'd had. 4 But yes, that's my recollection, that, as 5 of September 8th, I would have been involved in 6 those deliberations. 7 Q. How did you become involved in 8 deliberations over whether or not to request the a 9 citizenship question be included on the 10 2020 census questionnaire? 11 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 12 To the extent that that answer would 13 cause you to reveal information subject to 14 deliberative process privilege, I instruct you not 15 to answer. 16 question without divulging such information, you 17 may do so. 18 To the extent you can answer that THE WITNESS: I became involved through a 19 conversation I had with two individuals at the 20 Department of Justice. 21 BY MR. HO: 22 Q. Which two individuals at the Department Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 75 1 of Justice? 2 A. 3 Hankey. 4 Q. The attorney general and Mary Blanche Roughly when did your conversations with 5 Mary Blanche Hankey and the attorney general 6 occur? 7 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 8 THE WITNESS: It was the day or two 9 before the Labor Day weekend. Compound. The reason I 10 remember that is that the attorney general is a 11 college football fan, and he's a fan of the Auburn 12 Tigers, so I ended the call with the cry for War 13 Eagle, since the Auburn Tigers were playing their 14 first game of the season that weekend. 15 BY MR. HO: 16 17 18 Q. What was communicated to you during that conversation with Attorney General Sessions? MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for 19 information subject to deliberative process 20 privilege. 21 I instruct you not to answer. 22 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 76 1 instruction, I can't answer. 2 BY MR. HO: 3 Q. As of the date of that conversation with 4 Attorney General Sessions, a decision had already 5 been made to request a citizenship question on the 6 2020 census, correct? 7 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for 8 information subject to deliberative process 9 privilege. 10 I instruct the witness not to answer. MR. HO: Josh, the deliberative process 11 privilege doesn't cover any post-decisional 12 communications, right? 13 MR. GARDNER: Yes. I completely 14 understand. 15 December letter to DOJ, as we consistently say. 16 You're asking him about things that predated that. 17 And the decision is in the MR. HO: I was just asking if the 18 decision had already been made. 19 that's the representation that you've [sic] been 20 made, but I think I can ask him if the decision 21 had already been made at that point. 22 MR. GARDNER: I understand I'll tell you what. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 If you Page 77 1 ask the question when was the decision made, I can 2 let him answer that question. 3 be difficult. 4 BY MR. HO: 5 Q. I'm not trying to I just need to be careful here. Had the decision already been made as of 6 the date of your conversation with Attorney 7 General Sessions to request a citizenship question 8 be included on the 2020 census questionnaire? 9 10 A. The decision was made when the letter was sent in December of 2017. 11 Q. As of the date of Mr. Comstock's memo, 12 September 8th, 2017, did you already have a view 13 as to whether or not CVAP data based on 14 statistical estimates were problematic in any way 15 for purposes of VRA enforcement? 16 A. I was generally aware of issues related 17 to ACS data from my prior work on cases involving 18 Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act and cases 19 involving gerrymandering claims under Shaw versus 20 Reno. 21 limitations on the ACS data from that prior work. 22 And I was aware that there were some Q. As of the date of your first conversation Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 78 1 with Attorney General Sessions, did you already 2 have a few that hard count CVAP data would better 3 suit DOJ's needs with respect to VRA enforcement 4 than ACS estimates? 5 A. No, I don't believe I did. 6 Q. When did you arrive at the view that 7 hard count decennial census data with respect to 8 citizenship would better suit DOJ's VRA 9 enforcement needs as compared to ACS citizenship 10 estimates? 11 A. I'm sorry. 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. Sometime before the letter was sent. 14 Q. Can you give a more specific time frame 15 Your question was when? than that? 16 A. Probably not. 17 Q. How did you arrive at the view that 18 hard count citizenship data collected through the 19 decennial census would better suit DOJ's 20 enforcement needs than ACS estimates? 21 22 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for information subject to deliberative process Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 79 1 privilege. 2 BY MR. HO: 3 Q. I instruct the witness not to answer. As of the date of your conversation with 4 Attorney General Sessions, did you already have 5 the view that the decennial census questionnaire 6 would be the best vehicle for collecting CVAP data 7 for purposes of VRA enforcement? 8 9 10 A. I don't recall having a view on that one way or the other as of that time. Q. As of the date of Mr. Comstock's memo 11 on September 8th, 2017, did you already have the 12 view that the decennial census would be the best 13 vehicle for collecting CVAP data for purposes of 14 VRA enforcement? 15 16 17 18 A. I don't recall having a view on that issue one way or the other. Q. Let me show you a document. We'll mark this as Exhibit 5. 19 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 5 marked for 20 identification and attached to the 21 transcript.) 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 80 1 2 BY MR. HO: Q. This is an e-mail thread. The top thread 3 on the e-mail is from Arthur Gary to you dated 4 Monday, September 11th, 2017. 5 bears the Bates number DOJ 000129985. 6 The first page The subject on this e-mail thread between 7 you and Mr. Gary is 2020 census questions, 8 correct? 9 A. Can I read this -- 10 Q. Sure. 11 A. -- document? 12 13 14 Thank you. Okay. Q. The subject line of this e-mail is 2020 census questions, correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. I want to ask you a question about an 17 e-mail on the bottom of page 2. 18 e-mail -- looks like it's the first one on the 19 thread -- from Arthur Gary to you dated 20 September 11th, 2017, right? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. Okay. This is an Now, this is, just so the record Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 81 1 is clear, three days after the Comstock memo that 2 we looked at earlier, which was September 8th, 3 2017. 4 5 This was your first time corresponding with Mr. Gary, correct? 6 A. It appears to be. Yes. 7 Q. The second paragraph after his 8 introduction to you in his e-mail reads, "I am the 9 GC for JMD. AAG/A Lee Loftus has asked me to 10 reach out to you to find out if you and/or CRT 11 have any background information regarding some 12 concerns raised that the Secretary of Commerce 13 raised last week with the AG relating to the 14 2020 census. 15 potential questions relating to citizenship in the 16 American Community Survey portion of the upcoming 17 2020 census." 18 I understand the concerns relate to When Mr. Gary references concerns raised 19 that the Secretary of Commerce raised last week, 20 "last week" would have been the week of Monday, 21 9/4/2017, right? 22 A. Sounds right. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 82 1 2 Q. That's Labor Day, which we were talking about earlier, right? 3 A. Sounds about right. Yeah. 4 Q. And when Mr. Gary references concerns 5 raised that the Secretary of Commerce raised, what 6 did you understand him to mean by concerns? 7 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for 8 information subject to deliberative process 9 privilege. 10 To the extent you can answer without 11 disclosing such information, you may; otherwise, I 12 instruct you not to answer. 13 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 14 instruction, I can't answer. 15 BY MR. HO: 16 Q. Before Mr. Gary's e-mail, you were aware 17 that the Secretary of Commerce and the attorney 18 general had had conversations about the 19 citizenship question, correct? 20 A. I think that's right. I believe I said 21 that I spoke with the attorney general a day or 22 two before Labor Day weekend. I think that's Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 83 1 right. I could be off by a week or two. 2 may have happened later. 3 how that would align in time with this 4 September 11th communication. 5 6 7 So it So I don't know exactly But I would say that it was -- so I stand on that answer. Q. So that communication between the 8 Secretary of Commerce and the attorney general, 9 that was initiated by the Secretary of Commerce, 10 correct? 11 12 MR. GARDNER: Objection. foundation. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 14 party to that conversation. 15 BY MR. HO: 16 Lack of Q. I wasn't a You mentioned you had a conversation with 17 the attorney general around Labor Day. 18 understand from that conversation that the 19 Secretary of Commerce initiated the conversation 20 between the Secretary of Commerce and the attorney 21 general? 22 A. Did you Correct? That's been my working understanding. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 84 1 2 Yes. Q. Your working understanding is not that 3 the attorney general initiated a conversation with 4 the Secretary of Commerce about the citizenship 5 question, correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. You responded to Mr. Gary's e-mail by 8 asking him to give you a call. 9 conversation with Mr. Gary? 10 A. I don't know. Did you have a I don't know if I had a 11 conversation with him with specific reference to 12 this e-mail. 13 Q. I can't -- I don't recall that. After receiving this e-mail, did you 14 learn more from Mr. Gary about what he was 15 referring to when he talked about concerns that 16 the Commerce Secretary had? 17 A. I don't recall -- as I said, I don't 18 recall discussing this with Mr. Gary. 19 we had some short e-mail correspondence, as this 20 document lays out, but that's all I recall about 21 it at this time. 22 Q. Obviously, Mr. Gary said in this e-mail that he Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 85 1 would ask a contact at census OGC to do a little 2 quiet exploring. 3 4 What did you understand him to mean by that? 5 6 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Lack of foundation. 7 THE WITNESS: 8 where that is? 9 BY MR. HO: 10 Q. Sure. I'm sorry, can you tell me I don't see that. The top e-mail on the second page, 11 Mr. Gary writes, "John, my contact at census OGC, 12 not at the department level, has heard nothing, 13 and is equally puzzled about the question. 14 will do a little quiet exploring and get back to 15 me." 16 He Do you see that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What did you understand Mr. Gary to mean 19 20 21 22 by quiet exploring? MR. GARDNER: foundation. Objection. Lack of Calls for speculation. THE WITNESS: I don't recall what I Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 86 1 understood him to be meaning at that time. 2 BY MR. HO: 3 4 Q. As you look back at this and read it now, what do you understand him to be meaning? 5 MR. GARDNER: Same objections. 6 THE WITNESS: Well, I think when you 7 first mentioned this, you said that Mr. Gary 8 conveyed to me that he asked this contact to do 9 quiet exploring. 10 would do it. 11 him to do it. 12 It says here that the contact So I don't know that Mr. Gary asked So with that point of clarification, I 13 understood this -- as I sit here today, I 14 understand that phrase to mean that whoever this 15 individual was at the Department of Commerce would 16 try to find more information about -- out about 17 this issue from the Department of Commerce and be 18 back in touch with Mr. Gary. 19 BY MR. HO: 20 21 22 Q. Why, if you know, would this exploring have to be quiet? MR. GARDNER: Objection. Lack of Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 87 1 foundation. 2 3 Calls for speculation. THE WITNESS: I have no idea. BY MR. HO: 4 Q. On the first page, the top e-mail at 5 6:35 p.m. on September 11th, Mr. Gary writes to 6 you, "John, I got a call back from my contact at 7 the census. 8 citizenship information being raised by career 9 policy staff about a year and a half ago, but no He now recalls questions about 10 writing -- but not in writing and nothing came of 11 it. 12 wish to elevate the question at the census." 13 Did you ever learn who Mr. Gary was His trail has gone cold as well and doesn't 14 referring to when he referenced career policy 15 staff? 16 A. I don't believe so, no. 17 Q. Sitting here today, do you know what 18 Mr. Gary is referring to when he references career 19 policy staff? 20 A. No. Generally, yes. I don't know the 21 identity of the individuals he is referring to. 22 understand what career policy staff is at a Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 I Page 88 1 government agency. 2 Q. Well, the career policy staff being 3 referred to -- which agency is Mr. Gary referring 4 to? 5 6 7 8 A. I take him here to be referring to career policy staff from the Census Bureau. Q. Why, if you know, did Mr. Gary's contact not wish to elevate the question at the census? 9 10 MR. GARDNER: foundation. 11 no idea. 13 BY MR. HO: 14 Q. Lack of Calls for speculation. THE WITNESS: 12 Objection. I'd be speculating. To the best of your recollection, what 15 was the next interaction after this e-mail 16 exchange that you had about the issue of a 17 citizenship question on the 2020 census? 18 19 I have MR. GARDNER: And just for clarification, are you asking him for when or what? 20 MR. HO: When. 21 MR. GARDNER: Okay. 22 THE WITNESS: I believe the next Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 89 1 conversation I had with Mr. Gary about this took 2 place around Halloween. 3 BY MR. HO: 4 Q. My question wasn't about -- 5 A. 2017. 6 Q. My question wasn't about your next 7 interaction with Mr. Gary. 8 A. Oh, I'm sorry. 9 Q. It was just your next interaction about 10 the citizenship question on the decennial census. 11 A. I see. 12 Q. After this e-mail exchange with Mr. Gary, 13 when was the next interaction that you had about 14 the issue of a citizenship question on the 15 decennial census? 16 A. That's a fair question. Around the -- I 17 don't know -- I guess I don't know which was the 18 next communication I had or who it was with. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. I was communicating with various 21 22 individuals at that time about the issue. Q. Have you ever discussed the issue of the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 90 1 citizenship question with Secretary Ross? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Prior to May 2017 -- so I'm changing the 4 time period here a little bit -- 5 A. Sure. 6 Q. -- had you ever raised the issue of a 7 citizenship question on the decennial census 8 questionnaire? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Were you consulted by Secretary Ross 11 regarding whether the Department of Justice would 12 support or request the inclusion of a citizenship 13 question on the decennial census? 14 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 17 Vague. BY MR. HO: Q. Were you consulted by Secretary Ross' 18 staff regarding whether the Department of Justice 19 would support or request inclusion of a 20 citizenship question on the census? 21 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. 22 THE WITNESS: Who do you mean by staff? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 91 1 2 BY MR. HO: Q. Anyone who works in the front office of 3 the Department of Commerce. Were you ever 4 consulted by front office Department of Commerce 5 employees -- that's what I mean by Secretary Ross' 6 staff -- 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. -- regarding whether the Department of 9 10 Justice would support or request the inclusion of a citizenship question on the census? 11 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. 12 THE WITNESS: I guess I'm still not clear 13 on what you mean by the front office of the 14 Department of Commerce. 15 I believe, three individuals at the Department of 16 Commerce about this issue. 17 BY MR. HO: 18 19 Q. I can recall speaking to, Who are the three individuals at the Department of Commerce -- 20 A. Sure. 21 Q. -- that you spoke to about the 22 citizenship question on the census? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 92 1 A. I didn't mean to cut you off, and I 2 apologize, again, to the court reporter for being 3 a fast talker. 4 I recall speaking to Peter Davidson, 5 James Uthmeier, U-T-H-M-E-I-E-R -- and Wendy 6 Teramoto. 7 Q. When was the first occasion on which you 8 consulted with one of those three individuals 9 about the inclusion of a citizenship question on 10 11 the census? A. I'm not sure I would describe it as a 12 consultation as much as I would describe it as a 13 conversation about various issues related to the 14 reinstatement of a citizenship question on the 15 census questionnaire. 16 conversations starting sometime around this 17 September 2017 time frame. 18 Q. I can recall having Who was the first of those three 19 individuals that you had a conversation with about 20 the inclusion of a citizenship question on the 21 2020 census? 22 A. Peter Davidson. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 93 1 Q. And roughly when was your first 2 conversation with Peter Davidson about including a 3 citizenship question on the 2020 census? 4 A. I don't recall exactly, but I would say 5 it was probably around mid-September of 2017 or 6 somewhere in that time frame. 7 Q. After you spoke to Mr. Davidson in 8 mid-September, what was the next conversation that 9 you had among those three individuals from 10 11 Commerce about the citizenship question? A. I don't recall exactly when it was. I 12 had several conversations with Peter Davidson 13 beginning in September and continuing through 14 December. 15 with Mr. Uthmeier, including at least one between 16 just Mr. Uthmeier and me and one, and maybe two, 17 where Mr. Uthmeier and Peter Davidson were both 18 involved. 19 with Wendy Teramoto about a scheduling issue that 20 I think took place in October of 2017, but I don't 21 recall exactly. 22 Q. I had a couple of conversations as well Then I had a conversation at one point Somewhere in that time frame. Roughly when was your first conversation Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 94 1 2 3 with Mr. Uthmeier about the citizenship question? A. I think it would have been either late September or sometime in October of 2017. 4 MR. HO: We've been going for a little 5 over an hour, about an hour-ten. 6 okay time for a first break? 7 MR. GARDNER: 8 MR. HO: 9 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 10 unit number 1. 11 10:19 a.m. That's fine with me, yeah. Great. This concludes media The time on the video is And we are off the record. 12 (A recess was taken.) 13 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 14 number 2. 15 are on the record. 16 BY MR. HO: 17 Q. Would now be an This begins media unit The time on the video is 10:37 a.m. Mr. Gore, I just want to follow up 18 on something from before the break. The 19 communications between the Department of Justice 20 and the Department of Commerce about the 21 citizenship question, those communications were 22 not initiated by the voting section, correct? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 We Page 95 1 A. That's correct. That's my understanding. 2 Q. And those communications were not 3 initiated by anyone else in the civil rights 4 division, correct? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. And you did not initiate the 7 communications between Commerce and Justice about 8 the citizenship question, correct? 9 A. That's correct. 10 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 6 marked for 11 identification and attached to the 12 transcript.) 13 14 BY MR. HO: Q. In front of you is a document that's been 15 marked as Exhibit 7. 16 between, among other people, you, Macie Leach, and 17 Wendy Teramoto. 18 Bates marked 0002628. 19 administrative record. 20 21 22 The first page of the document is MR. GARDNER: Exhibit 7. It's an e-mail thread It's from the I think you may have said It's Exhibit 6. MR. HO: Oh, I'm so sorry. Exhibit 6. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 96 1 Thank you for clarifying, Josh. 2 3 4 MR. GARDNER: Sure. BY MR. HO: Q. The first e-mail on this thread is on the 5 second page -- first in time, I mean. 6 you to Wendy Teramoto on Wednesday, 7 September 13th, 2017, correct? It's from 8 A. It appears to be. Yes. 9 Q. And that's two days after your exchange 10 with Mr. Gary regarding 2020 census questions, 11 correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And at the time that you sent this 14 e-mail, you knew that Ms. Teramoto was the chief 15 of staff to Commerce Secretary Ross, correct? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. In the second sentence of your e-mail to 18 Ms. Teramoto, you write, "I would like to talk to 19 you about a DOJ-DOC issue," correct? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. The DOJ-DOC issue that you're referring 22 to in this e-mail is the citizenship question, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 97 1 correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. What prompted you to reach out to 4 Ms. Teramoto to talk to her about the citizenship 5 question? 6 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 7 To the extent that that answer calls for 8 the divulsion of information subject to 9 deliberative process privilege, I instruct you not 10 to answer. 11 question without divulging such information, you 12 may do so. 13 To the extent you can answer that THE WITNESS: 14 with Peter Davidson. 15 BY MR. HO: 16 17 Q. It was a conversation I had When was that conversation with Mr. Davidson? 18 A. I don't recall exactly. 19 Q. And what is Mr. Davidson's role at 20 21 22 Commerce? A. I don't know what his current role is. At the time, I understood him to be the general Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 98 1 counsel of the Department of Commerce. 2 Q. How did you come to talk to Mr. Davidson? 3 A. He called me. 4 Q. Did you know Mr. Davidson prior to that 6 A. No. 7 Q. Roughly when did that conversation with 5 8 9 call? Mr. Davidson take place? A. As I mentioned before, I had several 10 conversations with Mr. Davidson over time. 11 don't know when exactly any of those conversations 12 took place, and I don't know when this particular 13 conversation took place. 14 15 Q. And Mr. Davidson asked you to reach out to Ms. Teramoto? 16 A. Yes, he did. 17 Q. Why did he ask you to reach out to 18 19 I Ms. Teramoto? MR. GARDNER: Objection. To the extent 20 that that answer calls for disclosing information 21 subject to deliberative process privilege, I 22 instruct the witness not to answer. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 99 1 To the extent you can answer that 2 question without divulging such information, you 3 may do so. 4 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 5 instruction, I can't answer. 6 BY MR. HO: 7 8 Q. You subsequently had a conversation with Ms. Teramoto after this e-mail? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. When did that conversation take place? 11 A. I don't recall exactly. 12 Q. What was discussed during that 13 conversation? 14 MR. GARDNER: To the extent you can 15 answer that question without divulging information 16 subject to deliberative process privilege, you may 17 do so. 18 Otherwise, I instruct you not to answer. THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 19 instruction, the only answer I can give is that 20 there was a discussion of scheduling some kind of 21 call between the attorney general and 22 Secretary Ross. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 100 1 2 BY MR. HO: Q. And the call to be scheduled between the 3 attorney general and Secretary Ross was about the 4 citizenship question, correct? 5 6 7 A. I actually don't know that, but it may have been. Q. Well, the DOJ-DOC issue that you reached 8 out to Ms. Teramoto, you testified earlier that 9 that issue was the citizenship question, correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And then you spoke to Ms. Teramoto after 12 sending the e-mail about the citizenship question 13 to set up a conversation between Secretary Ross 14 and the attorney general, correct? 15 A. Correct. There was some confusion at the 16 Department of Commerce as to what my job was. 17 so they had reached out to me and asked me to 18 broker some kind of scheduling, which is not part 19 of my job description. 20 I spoke to Ms. Teramoto. 21 22 Q. And And I discovered that once But the conversation to take place between the attorney general and Secretary Ross Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 101 1 was to be about the citizenship question, correct? 2 A. That, I don't know. 3 Q. Well, the scheduling of that conversation 4 that you were supposed to take part of [sic] came 5 out of your e-mail to Ms. Teramoto about the 6 citizenship question, correct? 7 A. I was not to take part in that 8 conversation. 9 conversation, so I don't know. 10 Q. I never did take part in that I meant the conversation between you and 11 Ms. Teramoto to schedule a meeting between the 12 attorney general and the Commerce Secretary, that 13 conversation that you had with Ms. Teramoto arose 14 out of your e-mail to Ms. Teramoto concerning the 15 citizenship question, correct? 16 A. That sounds right. I can't remember 17 whether we discussed exactly what the call between 18 the attorney general and the Secretary would be 19 about, is what I'm trying to convey. 20 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 7 marked for 21 identification and attached to the 22 transcript.) Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 102 1 2 BY MR. HO: Q. Okay. I'm going to show you an e-mail 3 that's been marked as Exhibit 7. 4 exchange between, among other people, you and 5 Ms. Teramoto. 6 Bates number 0002657. 7 is dated 9/16/2017 from Danielle Cutrona to you, 8 Mr. Gore, with a cc to Ms. Teramoto. 9 the administrative record. 10 It's an e-mail The first page of it bears the The top e-mail on the chain It's part of This e-mail thread -- or the top e-mails 11 on this thread, these are subsequent to the e-mail 12 that we talked about earlier between you and 13 Ms. Teramoto, correct? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. And these -- the top e-mails took place 16 after your conversation with Ms. Teramoto, 17 correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And you, after speaking with 20 Ms. Teramoto, then introduced her to Danielle 21 Cutrona from the Department of Justice, correct? 22 A. That's correct. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 103 1 2 Q. the attorney general at this time, correct? 3 4 5 And Ms. Cutrona was a senior advisor to A. That's probably a fair characterization, Q. Prior to when Attorney General Sessions yeah. 6 became attorney general, Ms. Cutrona worked for 7 him previously in the Senate as his counsel on the 8 judiciary committee, correct? 9 10 MR. GARDNER: Lack of foundation. 11 THE WITNESS: 12 for him. 13 BY MR. HO: 14 Objection. Q. I do know that she worked I don't know what her title was. And Ms. Cutrona also served on the Trump 15 transition team in charge o immigration reform and 16 building the wall, correct? 17 18 MR. GARDNER: 21 22 Same objection. 19 20 Same objections. THE WITNESS: I actually don't know. BY MR. HO: Q. To your knowledge, Ms. Cutrona has no experience with enforcing Section 2 of the Voting Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 104 1 Rights Act, correct? 2 A. I don't know one way or the other. 3 Q. You're not aware of any experience that 4 Ms. Cutrona has with respect to enforcing 5 Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act, correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Did Ms. Teramoto and Ms. Cutrona connect 8 after this e-mail exchange? 9 A. I believe that they did. 10 Q. How do you know that? 11 A. Because I believe that Danielle let me 12 13 14 know that they had. Q. What knowledge do you have of what they discussed? 15 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 16 To the extent you can answer that 17 question without divulging information subject to 18 deliberative process privilege, you may do so. 19 Otherwise, I instruct you not to answer. 20 21 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that instruction, I can't answer. 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 105 1 2 3 BY MR. HO: Q. I'm going to show you another document. We'll mark this as Exhibit 8. 4 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 8 marked for 5 identification and attached to the 6 transcript.) 7 8 9 BY MR. HO: Q. This is a continuation of the e-mail chain between you and Ms. Cutrona and 10 Ms. Teramoto. 11 number 0002653. 12 record in this case. 13 dated September 17th, 2017, from Ms. Cutrona to 14 Ms. Teramoto. 15 The first page of it has the Bates It's part of the administrative And the e-mail at the top is The e-mail from Ms. Cutrona to 16 Ms. Teramoto at the top reads, "Wendy, the 17 attorney general is available on his cell. 18 number is" -- and then the number is redacted. 19 "He is in Seattle, so he's three hours behind us. 20 From what John told me, it sounds like we can do 21 whatever you all need us to do and the delay was 22 due to a miscommunication. His The AG is eager to Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 106 1 assist." 2 3 So you had a conversation with Ms. Cutrona, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And when Ms. Cutrona in this e-mail 6 writes, "from what John told me," what is she 7 referring to? 8 9 What did you tell Ms. Cutrona? MR. GARDNER: Objection. To the extent that information would be subject to deliberative 10 process privilege, I instruct the witness not to 11 answer. 12 To the extent you can answer that without 13 divulging such privileged information, you may do 14 so. 15 16 17 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that instruction, I can't do so. MR. HO: I just want to understand the 18 position here. The conversation and -- the 19 content of the conversation is referenced in the 20 administrative record. 21 motion to compel Mr. Gore's testimony based on his 22 role in the request to include a citizenship The court has granted our Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 107 1 question on the census and is, I think, permitting 2 us to inquire about his role in that. 3 position of the department is that we can't ask 4 about a reference to what Mr. Gore said that's 5 clearly in the administrative record? 6 MR. GARDNER: And the The content of those 7 conversations is not in the administrative record, 8 presumably, and that's why you're asking Mr. Gore. 9 The court expressly said that the Department of 10 Justice may invoke, you know, appropriate 11 privileges and, you know, we would do that on a 12 question-by-question basis rather than per se 13 precluding the deposition based on privilege. 14 MR. HO: Okay. 15 MR. GARDNER: You're asking about the 16 contents of a deliberative conversation that 17 predates a final decision. 18 protected by the privilege. 19 MR. HO: 20 clarification. 21 BY MR. HO: 22 Q. It is plainly Thank you for that When Ms. Cutrona writes, "It sounds like Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 108 1 we can do whatever you all need us to do," what 2 did you understand her as referring to as what 3 17th needed DOJ to do? 4 MR. GARDNER: Objection. To the extent 5 it calls for information subject to deliberative 6 process privilege, I instruct the witness not to 7 answer. 8 9 To the extent you can answer without divulging privilege, you may do so. 10 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 11 instruction, I can't answer. 12 BY MR. HO: 13 14 Q. what do you understand her to mean by that? 15 16 When Ms. Cutrona refers to the delay, MR. GARDNER: Same objection. instruction. 17 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 18 instruction, I can't answer. 19 BY MR. HO: 20 Same Q. When Ms. Cutrona refers to the 21 miscommunication, what do you understand her to 22 mean by that? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 109 1 2 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. Same instruction. 3 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 4 instruction, I can't answer. 5 BY MR. HO: 6 Q. When Ms. Cutrona writes, "The AG is eager 7 to assist," what did you understand her to mean by 8 that? 9 10 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. instruction. 11 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 12 instruction, I can't answer. 13 BY MR. HO: 14 Same Q. When Ms. Cutrona writes, "The attorney 15 general is eager to assist," that is a statement 16 referencing the fact that the attorney general had 17 already made a decision to request a citizenship 18 question on the 2020 census, correct? 19 20 21 22 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. Same instruction. THE WITNESS: Consistent with that instruction, I can't answer. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 110 1 2 BY MR. HO: Q. When Ms. Cutrona writes, "We are eager to 3 assist," what did you understand her to mean by 4 "assist"? 5 6 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. instruction. 7 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 8 instruction, I can't answer. 9 BY MR. HO: 10 Q. 11 e-mail? What was your reaction to receiving this 12 13 MR. GARDNER: Objection. THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I ever did 15 receive this e-mail. 16 e-mail between Wendy and Danielle. 17 BY MR. HO: 19 Lack of foundation. 14 18 Same Q. Okay. document. I'm not copied on this I'm going to show you another We'll mark this as Exhibit 9. 20 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 9 marked for 21 identification and attached to the 22 transcript.) Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 111 1 2 BY MR. HO: Q. This is another e-mail from the 3 administrative record, the first page of which -- 4 the only page of which has Bates number 0002636. 5 The top e-mail is an e-mail to you dated 6 September 18th, 2017. 7 that's two days after you connected Ms. Teramoto 8 and Ms. Cutrona, correct? September 18th, 2017, 9 A. That seems to be correct. 10 Q. And the e-mail to you states, "Hi. 11 and Sec spoke. 12 minute." 13 14 15 Yes. AG Please let me know when you have a What did you understand that to mean, AG and Sec spoke? A. I understood it to mean what it says it 16 means, that the attorney general and the Secretary 17 spoke. 18 Q. Secretary Ross, right? 19 A. Secretary Ross. 20 Q. Okay. 21 22 Yes. What did you understand that they had spoken about? MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 112 1 information subject to deliberative process 2 privilege. 3 I instruct the witness not to answer. THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 4 instruction, I can't answer. 5 BY MR. HO: 6 Q. I'm not asking for the content of the 7 conversation, just whether or not they spoke about 8 the citizenship question. 9 understanding? Is that your 10 A. Yes, that would be my understanding. 11 Q. What significance, if any, did you take 12 from the fact that the attorney general and the 13 Secretary of Commerce had spoken about the 14 citizenship question? 15 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 16 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I assigned any Vague. 17 significance to it. 18 chain that the Secretary was interested in 19 speaking to the attorney general. 20 BY MR. HO: 21 22 Q. I understood from this e-mail What reaction, if any, did you have to the fact that the attorney general and Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 113 1 Secretary Ross spoke about the citizenship 2 question on or around September 18th, 2017? 3 4 A. I don't recall having any reaction about Q. Did you understand from the fact that it. 5 6 they had spoken that you were to take any 7 particular course of action after their 8 conversation about the citizenship question? 9 MR. GARDNER: Objection to the extent 10 that that answer calls for disclosing information 11 subject to deliberative process privilege. 12 To the extent you can answer that 13 question without divulging such information, you 14 may. Otherwise, I instruct you not to answer. 15 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 16 instruction, I can't answer. 17 BY MR. HO: 18 Q. Well, I didn't ask what specific action, 19 if any, you were supposed to take afterwards. 20 was just asking if you understood that, by virtue 21 of the fact that the Secretary and the attorney 22 general had spoken about the citizenship question, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 I Page 114 1 that meant that you were supposed to do 2 something -- I'm not asking you to name what that 3 thing was -- but that you were supposed to do 4 something after that. 5 6 7 8 A. Again, I think you're asking about my mental process and what went through my -Q. I don't think your counsel made an objection. 9 MR. GARDNER: I think -- to the extent 10 you're asking for a yes or no answer, I think you 11 can answer that. 12 THE WITNESS: 13 question? 14 BY MR. HO: 15 Q. Sure. Can you repeat the From the fact that was 16 communicated to you, that the attorney general and 17 the -- and Secretary Ross had spoken about the 18 citizenship question on or around September 18th, 19 2017, did you understand that you were supposed to 20 then take some action? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did you speak to Ms. Teramoto after Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 115 1 2 Secretary Ross and the Attorney General spoke? A. Are you referring to the conversation 3 between the attorney general and the Secretary 4 that's documented here on September 18th? 5 Q. Yes. Ms. Teramoto, after telling you 6 that the Attorney General and the -- 7 Secretary Ross spoke, says -- or writes, please -- 8 let me know when you have a minute." 9 10 Did you follow up with Ms. Teramoto to have a conversation with her -- 11 A. I see. 12 Q. -- after this e-mail? 13 A. I don't recall. 14 Q. Let me show you another document. 15 We'll mark this as Exhibit 10. 16 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 10 marked for 17 identification and attached to the 18 transcript.) 19 20 BY MR. HO: Q. This is an e-mail to you dated 21 September 22nd, 2017. Just so the record is 22 clear, this was produced to us in discovery. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 The 802 Page 116 1 electronic version has a file name that's stamped 2 DOJ 30651, but the document itself does not bear a 3 Bates number. 4 5 Mr. Gosre, this is an e-mail to you from Camille Legore-Traore, correct? 6 A. Legore-Traore is I believe how she says 7 it, but yes. 8 Q. And it's dated September 22nd, 2017? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And this e-mail informs you that James 11 Uthmeier from the Department of Commerce called to 12 speak with you, correct? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. Okay. Prior to this e-mail, September 15 22nd, 2017, had you spoken with Mr. Uthmeier about 16 the citizenship question? 17 A. I don't recall. 18 Q. You and Mr. Uthmeier had been colleagues 19 at Jones Day, correct? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. You knew each other from your time there, 22 correct? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 802 Page 117 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Since -- did you socialize with 3 Mr. Uthmeier? 4 A. Not regularly, no. 5 Q. But at some point, if not regularly, you 6 7 8 9 socialized with him? A. I might have spent time with him at events sponsored by the law firm. Q. Between the time that you became a DOJ 10 employee and the date that you received this 11 e-mail, September 22nd, 2017, did you have any 12 other conversations with Mr. Uthmeier? 13 A. Not that I can recall. 14 Q. And at the time Mr. Uthmeier -- of this 15 e-mail -- at the time of this e-mail, Mr. Uthmeier 16 worked in the general counsel's office in the 17 Commerce Department, correct? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. To the best of your knowledge, 20 Mr. Uthmeier does not have any Voting Rights Act 21 enforcement responsibilities, correct? 22 A. Correct. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 118 1 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, 2 Mr. Uthmeier does not have any experience 3 enforcing the Voting Rights Act, correct? 4 A. That is correct as well. 5 Q. Did you ever return Mr. Uthmeier's call? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Roughly when? 8 A. Sometime around when I received this 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 message. Yeah. I believe I did. I can't remember if it was that day or the following week. Q. Roughly how long did you speak with Mr. Uthmeier? A. Not particularly long. Maybe 15 or 20 minutes. Q. Did you talk to him about the citizenship question? 17 A. Yes, among other things. 18 Q. At some point you received a note and a 19 memo from Mr. Uthmeier concerning the citizenship 20 question, correct? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Was the note handwritten? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 119 1 A. Yes, it was. 2 Q. How was the note transmitted to you? 3 A. Along with the memo, it was delivered to 4 my office. 5 Q. When did you receive the note and memo? 6 A. I don't recall exactly. 7 Q. Was it after receiving this phone call to 8 your office from Mr. Uthmeier on September 22nd, 9 2017? 10 A. I believe so, yes. 11 Q. Was it before the Department of Justice 12 sent its letter to the Census Bureau on 13 December 12th, 2017, requesting the citizenship 14 question? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You showed that note to other people, 17 right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Who did you show that note to? 20 A. I showed it to -- I know I've shown it to 21 Kathleen Toomey in the civil rights division as 22 part of the document collection. And I understand Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 120 1 that it was shown to a couple of other people in 2 the civil division who are responsible for 3 litigating this case on behalf of the United 4 States. 5 I don't recall showing it to anyone else. 6 7 Q. Do you know if anyone to whom you showed the note showed it to anyone else? 8 A. I don't. 9 Q. Did you ever have any discussions with 10 anyone about the note? 11 A. No, I don't believe so. 12 Q. You just showed it to some people, but 13 you never discussed it? 14 A. Well, I showed it to them after receiving 15 a document request in this litigation and I gave 16 it to them as part of the collection of documents 17 responsive to that -- potentially responsive to 18 that request. 19 20 I may have had a question with Ben Aguinaga about it, but I don't recall. 21 22 Q. Did the note solicit legal advice from you? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 121 1 A. No. 2 Q. And you didn't provide legal advice in 3 response to that note, correct? 4 A. I believe I may have, actually. 5 Q. You testified earlier you weren't 6 providing legal advice in connection to the 7 citizenship question, I thought. 8 9 MR. GARDNER: Mischaracterizes the witness' prior testimony. 10 THE WITNESS: 11 testimony. 12 BY MR. HO: 13 14 Objection. Q. Okay. I don't believe that was my So you think you did provide legal advice to Mr. Uthmeier in response to the memo? 15 A. Now you've changed the question. 16 Q. Yeah. 17 A. No, I didn't provide legal advice to 18 19 Mr. Uthmeier. Q. Did you provide legal advice to the 20 Department of Commerce in response to the note 21 from Mr. Uthmeier? 22 A. I did -- I did discuss -- now that you Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 122 1 mention it, I did discuss the note with 2 Mr. Uthmeier and Mr. Davidson. 3 Q. Did you provide legal advice to the 4 Department of Commerce in connection with the note 5 from Mr. Uthmeier? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. At this point were you anticipating 8 litigation over the possibility of including a 9 citizenship question in the census? 10 A. I'm sorry. Can you say that again? 11 Q. At this point -- 12 A. Right. 13 Q. -- when you received the handwritten note 14 from Mr. Uthmeier, were you anticipating 15 litigation over the possibility of the inclusion 16 of the citizenship question on the census? 17 A. Absolutely. 18 Q. Did the -- was the note shared with you 19 in anticipation of litigation over the citizenship 20 question? 21 22 MR. GARDNER: foundation. Objection. Lack of Calls for speculation. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601 Page 123 1 601 BY MR. HO: 2 Q. If you know. 3 A. That would be speculating. 4 Q. Did the note state one way or the other I don't know. 5 whether or not it was prepared in anticipation of 6 litigation? 7 A. I don't recall that it did. 8 Q. And did the note state one way or the 9 10 other whether or not it was requesting legal advice from you? 11 A. Yes, it did. 12 Q. And your answer is it was requesting 13 legal advice, the note? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did you -- let me start this again. 16 Did the Department of Justice rely on 17 that note in drafting its request to the Census 18 Bureau to include a citizenship question on the 19 census? 20 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 21 THE WITNESS: The note contained 22 Vague. information regarding that issue that was Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 124 1 considered by the Department of Justice in 2 drafting its request. 3 BY MR. HO: 4 Q. Does inform -- did -- does any 5 information contained on that note appear in the 6 Department of Justice's letter to the Department 7 of -- to the Census Bureau requesting a 8 citizenship question on the 2020 census? 9 MR. GARDNER: Objection to the extent 10 that that calls for the disclosure of information 11 that may be subject to deliberative process 12 privilege. 13 To the extent you can answer that 14 question without divulging that, you may. 15 Otherwise, I instruct you not to answer. 16 17 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that instruction, I can't answer that question. 18 MR. HO: Just so I understand the 19 position, even if information from that was on 20 that letter that became public, your position is 21 that's protected from my question about whether or 22 not -- Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 125 1 MR. GARDNER: Your question wasn't 2 whether it was expressly incorporated by reference 3 in the letter, at which point I would agree with 4 you that that would waive the privilege. 5 asked if information in that letter was somehow 6 used in forming the letter. 7 deliberative process protection. 8 9 MR. HO: 12 That is classic I don't think that was my question, but I'll ask a question that -- 10 11 You just MR. GARDNER: Ask it again. BY MR. HO: Q. Does information on the handwritten note 13 from Mr. Uthmeier appear in the Department of 14 Justice's letter requesting a citizenship question 15 on the 2020 census questionnaire? 16 17 18 19 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. Same instruction. THE WITNESS: Consistent with that instruction, I can't answer. 20 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 11 marked for 21 identification and attached to the 22 transcript.) Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 126 1 2 BY MR. HO: Q. This is marked as Exhibit 11. This is an 3 e-mail to you -- from you to Mr. Herren -- Chris 4 Herren, sorry -- dated November 1st, 2017, with a 5 cc to Ben Aguinaga, correct? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. Chris Herren is the chief of the voting 8 section, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. The subject line of your e-mail is, 11 And a great lawyer. Confidential and closehold draft letter, correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. And in your e-mail to Mr. Herren you say 14 that the draft letter is attached, correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Did you write the draft letter that is 17 attached to this e-mail? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. The draft letter that is attached to this 20 e-mail is an early draft of the December 12th 21 letter from the Department of Justice to the 22 Census Bureau requesting a citizenship question on Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 802 Page 127 1 802 the 2020 census questionnaire, correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. Is it fair to say that you wrote the 4 first draft of the letter from the Department of 5 Justice to the Census Bureau requesting a 6 citizenship question on the 2020 census 7 questionnaire? 8 9 A. Is that a question? I'm sorry. That sounded like a statement. 10 Q. No. It was a question. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. Is it fair to say that you wrote the 13 first draft of the letter from the Department of 14 Justice to the Census Bureau requesting a 15 citizenship question on the 2020 census 16 questionnaire? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You write in this e-mail that you 19 discussed the draft letter with Mr. Herren 20 yesterday. 21 22 Would that have been your first conversation with Mr. Herren about the citizenship Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 128 1 question on the census? 2 A. I don't recall. 3 Q. When was your first conversation, if you 4 recall, with Mr. Herren about the citizenship 5 question on the census? 6 A. I don't recall. 7 Q. Did you have any conversations with 8 Mr. Herren about the citizenship question before 9 you sent this letter to him? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. How many conversations did you have with 12 Mr. Herren before you sent the draft of the letter 13 to him? 14 A. 15 I don't recall exactly. It would have been a few. 16 Q. More than one? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Days before you sent him the letter? 19 Weeks before? 20 recollection about approximate time? 21 22 A. Months before? Do you have a I don't have an exact recollection. would say in the days before I sent him the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 I Page 129 1 letter. 2 Q. 3 4 Were those conversations in person or by phone? A. I can recall conversations by phone. 5 there may have been conversations in person. 6 can't recall. 7 8 Q. with Mr. Herren about the citizenship question? A. At what time? 10 Q. Before you sent him the draft letter. 11 A. Probably not. 12 Q. So more than one but fewer than five 13 conversations about the citizenship question 14 before you sent him the draft letter? 15 A. Sounds about right. 16 Q. You describe this as confidential and closehold. 18 19 20 I Did you have more than five conversations 9 17 And What do you mean by confidential and closehold? A. I meant that Mr. Herren should review the 21 letter and this was not for broad dissemination, 22 as it represented a draft. And I had asked him to Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 130 1 2 take a look at it. Q. When you say confidential and closehold, 3 does that mean that Mr. Herren was not permitted 4 to share the draft letter with anyone? 5 A. No. It meant that if he was interested 6 in sharing the draft letter with someone, he could 7 ask me if he was allowed to do that. 8 9 10 11 Q. So your understanding was that Mr. Herren should ask you before sharing any drafts of the letter with anyone? A. I believe my understanding was that he 12 should communicate with me if he wanted to share 13 this particular draft with anyone. 14 Q. Did Mr. Herren ever communicate with you 15 that he wanted to share the draft letter with 16 anyone? 17 A. I can't recall. 18 Q. Do you know whether or not Mr. Herren 19 shared this draft letter with anyone? 20 A. I don't. 21 Q. Do you know if Mr. Herren discussed the 22 issues in the draft letter with anyone? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 131 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 A. Whether he discussed the issues in the draft letter? Q. At what time? Around the time that you sent the copy of the draft letter to him. A. Well, I know he discussed them with me. Other than that, I don't know. Q. Do you know if Mr. Herren discussed the 8 issues raised in the draft letter with any voting 9 section personnel? 10 A. I don't. 11 Q. Why did you consider this letter to be 12 13 confidential and closehold? A. I considered it to be confidential and 14 closehold because it was a draft and related to an 15 issue that was important to people in the 16 department. 17 Q. Did you not want it to become public 18 information that the Department of Justice at this 19 point was drafting a letter to request a 20 citizenship question on the 2020 census 21 questionnaire? 22 MR. GARDNER: Objection to form. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 132 1 THE WITNESS: I never want any of our 2 drafts to become public information unless 3 required by legal process because I believe that 4 the Department of Justice should facilitate robust 5 and open conversation and deliberations at all 6 level before a decision is made. 7 BY MR. HO: 8 9 Q. I didn't ask if you wanted the draft to not become public. I just asked if you wanted the 10 fact that the Department of Justice was drafting a 11 letter to request a citizenship question on the 12 2020 census questionnaire, if you wanted that fact 13 to remain non-public at this time. 14 A. I would have preferred that that fact 15 remain non-public because the final letter hadn't 16 been issued and no final decision had yet been 17 made about it. 18 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 12 marked for 19 identification and attached to the 20 transcript.) 21 22 BY MR. HO: Q. I'm going to show you a document. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 We've Page 133 1 marked this as Exhibit 12. 2 DOJ 00003740. 3 The top e-mail is from Ben Aguinaga on November 4 3rd to Bethany Pickett. 5 This has Bates number It was produced to us in discovery. Here, Mr. Aguinaga is forwarding the 6 e-mail that you sent to Mr. Herren with the draft 7 letter to Bethany Pickett, correct? 8 A. That appears to be correct, yes. 9 Q. Did you authorize Mr. Aguinaga to send 10 the draft letter that you had sent to Mr. 11 to forward that to Bethany Pickett? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Now, at the time, Mr. Aguinaga and -Herren 14 Ms. Pickett both worked with you in the front 15 office of the civil rights division, correct? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. Both of them were political hires rather 18 than career staff, correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And you hired both Mr. Aguinaga and 21 22 Ms. Pickett, correct? A. No, I did not. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 134 1 Q. Who hired Mr. Aguinaga and Ms. Pickett? 2 A. I believe it was my predecessor, Tom 3 4 5 Wheeler. Q. Both of them had been law clerks for Judge Edith Jones on the Fifth Circuit, correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Just like Mr. Shumate, correct? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. Both of them graduated from law school in 10 2015 or more recently, correct? 11 A. Sounds about right. 12 Q. Before coming to the civil rights 13 division, neither Mr. Aguinaga nor Ms. Pickett had 14 any experience as counsel in cases under the 15 Voting Rights Act, correct? 16 17 MR. GARDNER: foundation. 18 19 20 Object to lack of THE WITNESS: I don't know. BY MR. HO: Q. You're not aware of any experience that 21 Mr. Aguinaga or Ms. Pickett had as counsel in 22 Voting Rights Act cases prior to them coming to Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 135 1 the civil rights division, correct? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. You're not aware of any experience that 4 either Mr. Aguinaga or Ms. Pickett had assessing 5 the reliability of CVAP data for purposes of VRA 6 enforcement, correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 13 marked for 9 identification and attached to the 10 11 12 transcript.) BY MR. HO: Q. I'll give you a document marked as 13 Exhibit 13. This is an e-mail from Ms. Pickett to 14 you also on November 3rd, 2017, correct? 15 A. Appears to be, yes. 16 Q. Ms. Pickett writes to you, "I have 17 attached the letter that we discussed yesterday. 18 I would be happy to discuss this further. 19 let me know if you have any questions regarding 20 any comments and edits." Please 21 It's accurate to say that Ms. Pickett 22 offered comments and edits to the draft of the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 136 1 letter requesting a citizenship question on the 2 census that you had previously sent to Mr. Herren, 3 correct? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. What were the substance of the 6 conversations that you had had with Ms. Pickett 7 about that letter? 8 9 10 MR. GARDNER: Objection. information subject to deliberative process privilege. 11 I instruct the witness not to answer. THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 12 instruction, I can't answer. 13 BY MR. HO: 14 15 Q. What were the substance of her edits to the draft of the letter? 16 17 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 19 instruction, I can't answer. 20 BY MR. HO: 22 Same instruction. 18 21 Calls for Q. Other than Ms. Pickett, Mr. Aguinaga, and Mr. Herren, did you solicit input on the draft Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 137 1 letter from anyone else within the civil rights 2 division? 3 A. Not that I can recall. 4 Q. Other than Ms. Pickett, Mr. Aguinaga, and 5 Mr. Herren, did you receive input on the draft 6 letter from anyone else within the civil rights 7 division? 8 A. Not that I can recall. 9 Q. Sometime after you wrote the first draft 10 of this e-mail, you had a conversation with Peter 11 Davidson at the Department of Commerce, correct? 12 A. Yes. That would be correct. 13 Q. So sometime in November of 2017, you had 14 conversation -- you had a conversation with 15 Mr. Davidson about the citizenship question, 16 correct? 17 A. Yes. At some point I would have. 18 Q. How many conversations did you have with 19 Mr. Davidson in November of 2017 about the 20 citizenship question? 21 A. I don't recall exactly how many. 22 Q. What, if anything, did you communicate to Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 138 1 Mr. Davidson about the Department of Justice's 2 process for requesting a citizenship question on 3 the census during November of 2017? 4 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Vague. Also 5 objection -- to the extent it calls for 6 information subject to deliberative process 7 privilege, I instruct you not to answer. 8 extent you can answer that without divulging such 9 information, you may answer. 10 11 THE WITNESS: To the Consistent with that instruction, I can't answer. 12 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 14 marked for 13 identification and attached to the 14 transcript.) 15 16 BY MR. HO: Q. I show you a document that's been marked 17 as Exhibit 14. 18 you, Robert Troester, T-r-o-e-s-t-e-r, and 19 Rachael, spelled R-a-c-h-a-e-l, Tucker. 20 It's an e-mail exchange between The top e-mail on the thread is 21 November 30th, 2017. 22 discovery. This was produced to us in The electronic version has DOJ 14798 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 802 Page 139 1 on it, although the hard copy doesn't have that 2 Bates number. 3 It we look at the bottom of this page, 4 the first e-mail on this thread is from you to 5 Ms. Tucker and Mr. Troester on November 27th, 6 2017, correct? 7 8 9 A. That's correct. pronounces his last name Troester. Q. Troester. 10 11 Except that he Thank you. You had a conversation on this day, the same day, with Mr. Davidson, correct? 12 A. On November 27th? 13 Q. 2017. 14 A. I don't recall that specifically, but 15 16 Correct? it's certainly possible. Q. Now, at this time, Ms. Tucker was counsel 17 in the front office of the attorney general, 18 correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. And Mr. Troester was associate deputy 21 22 attorney general, correct? A. That's my understanding, yes. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 802 Page 140 1 Q. Okay. Now, neither Ms. Tucker nor 2 Ms. [sic] Troester, as far as you're aware, had 3 any experience as counsel in Voting Rights Act 4 cases, correct? 5 A. Mr. Troester -- yes. 6 Q. What about Ms. Tucker? 7 A. Also correct. 8 That's correct. You called him Ms. Troester, so -- sorry. 9 Q. Thank you. 10 A. But, yes, I was not aware that either had 11 any enforcement responsibility or experience with 12 respect to the Voting Rights Act. 13 Q. And as far as you're aware, neither of 14 them had any experience assessing the reliability 15 of CVAP data used in Voting Rights Act litigation, 16 correct? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. Ms. Tucker and Mr. Troester were both 19 political appointees in the Department of Justice 20 at this time, correct? 21 22 A. That's correct for Ms. Tucker. I believe Mr. Troester was a career employee on detail to Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 141 1 the office of deputy attorney general and had 2 served a long career in the Department of Justice 3 as an assistant United States attorney, and maybe 4 even more than once as the acting United States 5 attorney in his home state of Oklahoma. 6 Q. In your e-mail to them on November 27th, 7 you wrote, "Attached please find the near final 8 draft of the letter to census on the citizenship 9 issue we discussed a couple of weeks ago." 10 So you had discussed the citizenship 11 issue with Ms. Tucker and Mr. Troester a few weeks 12 before the date of this e-mail, November 27th, 13 2017, correct? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. When were your first conversations with 16 either Ms. Tucker or Mr. Troester about the 17 citizenship question? 18 A. I don't recall specifically when they 19 were. 20 October. 21 conversations with each of them about that issue. 22 Probably in September of 2017 or early And I had a handful to several At the time, Ms. Tucker was responsible Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 NonResponsive Page 142 1 for the civil rights division portfolio in the 2 Office of Attorney General and Mr. Troester was 3 responsible for the civil rights division 4 portfolio in the Office of the Deputy Attorney 5 General. 6 over time about issues related to the civil rights 7 division. 8 9 Q. So I had many conversations with them You described the draft of the letter as a near final draft, correct? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. So fair to say that on November 27th, 12 2017, a decision had already been made to request 13 a citizenship question on the census? 14 A. No, I don't think that's fair to say. 15 Q. Okay. 16 17 Ms. Tucker and Mr. Troester both offered you edits to the letter, correct? A. I believe that's correct. 18 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 15 marked for 19 identification and attached to the 20 transcript.) 21 22 BY MR. HO: Q. This is a document marked as Exhibit 15. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 143 1 It's another e-mail chain between you and 2 Mr. Gary. 3 2017. The top e-mail is dated November 30th, 4 A. Uh-huh. 5 Q. This was also produced to us. And in the 6 e-mail at the top from you to Mr. Gary you write, 7 "Art, I have received some nits back from the 8 leadership offices which are reflected in the 9 attached red-line and clean versions. The 10 leadership offices have requested additional time 11 to review these through the weekend. 12 that would be fine, so let's plan to be ready to 13 send this out on Monday." 14 I told them Did I read this right? 15 A. Yes, you did. 16 Q. Okay. And the nits that you're referring 17 to from the leadership offices, those are the 18 edits from Ms. Tucker and Mr. Troester, correct? 19 A. Yes, it would include those edits. And I 20 don't know -- I can't recall whether other edits 21 also would have been included. 22 Q. You can't -- you're not aware of any Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 144 1 other edits that you were referring to beyond 2 Ms. Tucker's and Mr. Troester's when you refer to 3 nits back from the leadership offices? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. And your plan was to be -- this was 6 Thursday, November 30th. So your plan would 7 have -- was to be ready to send this out by 8 December 4th, Monday, correct? 9 A. That sounds right. 10 Q. So as of this point, November 30th, 2017, 11 a decision had already been made to request the 12 citizenship question, correct? 13 A. No, not at all. 14 Q. If a decision had not been made to 15 request a citizenship question, why did you tell 16 Mr. Gary to be ready to send the letter out on 17 Monday? 18 A. 19 20 I thought we needed to be ready in case a decision were made by then. Q. All right. 21 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 145 1 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 16 marked for 2 identification and attached to the 3 transcript.) 4 BY MR. HO: 5 Q. Exhibit 16 is what I'm handing to you 6 now. 7 Mr. Gary. 8 December 8th, 2017. 9 Request for citizenship information.December 8 10 Another e-mail chain between you and The top e-mail on the thread is dated red-line edits, 002. The subject line of this is, Is that right? 11 A. Appears to be right, yeah. 12 Q. When you say leadership's final changes 13 in this e-mail in the second line -- you write, 14 "Attached is a red-line of a letter with 15 leadership's final changes" -- you're referring to 16 additional edits that you received from Ms. Tucker 17 and Mr. Troester, correct? 18 19 20 A. Possibly. I don't know exactly which edits I'm referring to here. Q. Well, what were the final edits from 21 leadership? I mean, who was leadership? When you 22 wrote "leadership" here, who were you referring Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 802 Page 146 1 2 to? A. I would have been referring to the 3 leadership offices at the Department of Justice, 4 which may have included the Office of Attorney 5 General, the Office of Deputy Attorney General, 6 and the Office of Associate Attorney General. 7 Q. Is there anyone that you can think of who 8 was giving you edits in the last few days before 9 this letter was sent from any of those offices 10 other than Ms. Tucker and Mr. Troester? 11 A. Not that I can specifically recall. 12 Q. So fair to say, when you're referring to 13 leadership's final changes, you're referring to, 14 to the best of your recollection, some edits from 15 Ms. Tucker and Mr. Troester, correct? 16 17 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Mischaracterizes the witness' prior testimony. 18 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't recall 19 whether they came from Ms. Tucker, Mr. Troester, 20 or somebody else. 21 BY MR. HO: 22 Q. You write, "With these changes, we are Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 802 Page 147 1 authorized to send. 2 Sending on Monday is fine." Did I read that correctly? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Okay. When you say, "authorized to 5 send," who provided authorization to send the 6 letter with those changes? 7 A. I don't recall specifically who 8 communicated that. It would have come from 9 someone in the leadership office. 10 Q. Was it Ms. Tucker or Mr. Troester? 11 A. Again, I don't recall specifically who it Q. Was it Attorney General Sessions who gave 12 13 was. 14 your authorization to send the letter with these 15 edits? 16 17 MR. GARDNER: Objection. THE WITNESS: Again, I don't recall answered. 18 19 exactly who it was. 20 BY MR. HO: 21 22 Asked and Q. When you say, "With these changes we are authorized to send," on December 8th, 2017, when Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 802 Page 148 1 you wrote that, a decision had been made as of 2 December 8th, 2017, to send the citizenship 3 question -- the request for the citizenship 4 question as long as it had these changes, correct? 5 A. No, I don't think that's correct. 6 Q. You wrote, "With these changes, we are 7 authorized to send." 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. So as soon as you made those changes to 10 that letter, you had authorization to send that 11 letter, correct? 12 A. I believe we might have had authorization 13 to send, but it would have been my practice to 14 check in one last time before the letter was sent. 15 Q. Okay. You didn't have reason to believe 16 that you weren't authorized to send the letter 17 once you had made those changes as of 18 December 8th, 2017, right, Mr. Gore? 19 20 21 22 A. I don't recall what I thought or didn't think on December 8th of 2017. Q. Okay. You didn't say in this e-mail to Mr. Gary that you were going to check in again Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 149 1 after you made these changes, did you? 2 MR. GARDNER: 3 Mischaracterizes the document. 4 THE WITNESS: 5 in that e-mail. 6 BY MR. HO: 7 Q. Objection. I did not use those words You didn't tell Mr. Gary in this e-mail 8 that, after these changes were made, you would 9 have to check in with leadership one more time 10 11 before sending it, right? A. Again, I did not use those words in that 12 NonResponsive; e-mail, but that's standard practice, certainly my 602 13 standard practice, and I believe the standard 14 practice of others at the Department of Justice. 15 Q. You sent this e-mail on Friday, 16 December 8th, which means Monday would have been 17 Monday, December 11th, correct? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. And you wrote that sending on Monday, 20 which would have been December 11th, would be 21 fine, correct? 22 A. Correct. And what I was -- I believe I Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 150 1 was conveying there is that Mr. Gary didn't need 2 to work late on a Friday night during the holiday 3 season to send the letter out. 4 Q. So just so I understand the process here, 5 you had -- you first had communications about the 6 issue of a citizenship question sometime around 7 Labor Day of 2017, correct? 8 A. Give or take, yes, that's correct. 9 Q. You drafted the initial draft of the 10 letter to request the citizenship question 11 sometime around the end of October or early 12 November of 2017, correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. The conversations to add the citizenship 15 question with the Department of Commerce were not 16 initiated by the civil rights division, correct? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. And they were not initiated by the 19 Department of Justice, correct? 20 A. That's my working understanding. 21 Q. Around the time that you wrote the first 22 draft of this letter, you received input from Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 151 1 three individuals: 2 Mr. Gary, correct? 3 4 5 A. Yes. Mr. Herren, Ms. Pickett, and And I may have received input from others as well. Q. Around the time of the first draft of the 6 letter in early November of 2017, who else did you 7 receive input from other than Mr. Herren, 8 Ms. Pickett, and Mr. Gary? 9 A. Mr. Aguinaga would have provided -- may 10 have provided some input. 11 discussions on -- regarding the letter generally 12 with Patrick Hovakimian, who at the time was 13 detailed to the Office of Associate Attorney 14 General, and with Jesse Panuccio in the Office of 15 the Associate Attorney General. 16 I would have had And I had various conversations with 17 others at various times throughout this process. 18 But I don't recall who else I would have spoken to 19 at that particular moment in time, around 20 November 1st of 2017. 21 22 Q. Okay. Around November 1st of 2017, the only career staff in the civil rights division Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 152 1 from whom you received input on the letter was 2 from Mr. Herren, correct? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. After that period of early November 5 of 2017 when you had drafted the initial draft of 6 that letter, Mr. Herren gave you some edits, 7 correct? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. After that time, did you receive any 10 further edits from Mr. Herren to the draft letter? 11 A. I don't recall one way or the other. 12 Q. So you have no recollection of receiving 13 input from career civil rights division staff on 14 the letter requesting a citizenship question other 15 than that one occasion in early November around 16 the time of the first draft from Mr. Herren, 17 correct? 18 A. I believe that's correct. Yeah. 19 Q. You continued to revise the letter after 20 early November of 2017 with input from different 21 people. 22 Mr. Herren, you received no subsequent edits from But after that first round of edits from Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 153 1 people who were career staff in the civil rights 2 division, correct? 3 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Compound. 4 THE WITNESS: To the extent I understand 5 your question, I believe that's correct. 6 BY MR. HO: 7 Q. During this period when you were revising 8 the letter to request a citizenship question, you 9 had multiple conversations with legal staff at the 10 Department of Commerce, correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And the edits that you were receiving to 13 the letter from other DOJ personnel included 14 political appointees in the front office of the 15 Department of Justice and in the front office of 16 the civil rights division, correct? 17 A. I -- certainly that's correct with 18 respect to the leadership offices at the 19 Department of Justice. 20 receiving edits from the front office of the civil 21 rights division at that time after receiving the 22 edits from Ms. Pickett. I can't remember if I was Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 154 1 Q. Who made the final decision to send the 2 letter requesting the citizenship question be 3 added to the 2020 census questionnaire? 4 5 6 7 A. I'm not sure I know. And I can't recall who communicated the final decision to me. Q. The letter was ultimately sent on December 12th, 2017 -- 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. -- correct? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. Who gave the final signoff to put that 12 letter in the mail? 13 14 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Asked and THE WITNESS: I don't recall who gave the answered. 15 16 final signoff. 17 BY MR. HO: 18 Q. Was it you? 19 A. No, I don't believe I would have given 20 the final signoff. But maybe. I guess it depends 21 on what you're asking. 22 could press "send" on the e-mail? Like, who told Art Gary he I don't Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 155 1 understand your question. 2 Q. Yes, that's my question. 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. You don't know whether or not you did? 5 A. I don't recall whether it was me or 6 somebody else. 7 Q. All right. 8 A. It's possible it could have been me. 9 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 17 marked for 10 identification and attached to the 11 transcript.) 12 13 BY MR. HO: Q. I'm going to show you what's been marked 14 as Exhibit 17. This is a document in the 15 administrative record, the first page of which has 16 the number 000663. 17 December 12th, 2017, from Arthur Gary at the 18 Department of Justice addressed to Ron Jarmin at 19 the Census Bureau, correct? This is a letter stamped 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And this is the letter we've been talking 22 It appears to be. about in which the Department of Justice Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 156 1 officially requests that a citizenship question be 2 added to the 2020 decennial census questionnaire, 3 correct? 4 A. Let me read it. 5 6 MR. GARDNER: break right now, if that's fine. 7 8 I could use a bathroom MR. HO: Do you want to go off the record? 9 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 10 unit number 2. 11 11:32 a.m. This concludes media The time on the video is We are off the record. 12 (A recess was taken.) 13 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 14 number 3. 15 are on the record. 16 BY MR. HO: 17 18 19 Q. This begins media unit The time on the video is 11:48 a.m. Mr. Gore, I want to just follow up on something that you said before the break. You said that your standard practice, 20 even after receiving edits and getting clearance 21 to send a letter after inputting those edits, 22 would have been to check back in with leadership Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 We Page 157 1 before sending the letter. 2 the break. 3 4 You said that before Do I have that right? MR. GARDNER: Objection to the extent it mischaracterizes the witness' prior testimony. 5 THE WITNESS: I believe what I said was I 6 would have checked back with leadership in this 7 particular instance with -- before the letter was 8 sent. 9 BY MR. HO: 10 11 Q. You said that would be your standard practice, right? 12 A. Yeah. I used that phrase. 13 Q. Okay. Who within leadership would it 14 have been your standard practice to check in with 15 before the letter went out? 16 A. With respect to this particular letter or 17 as a matter of standard practice for other 18 matters. 19 Q. Let's just stick to this letter. 20 A. I imagine I would have talked to Rachael 21 22 Tucker in the Office of the Attorney General. Q. So in between when you received edits to Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 158 1 the letter that you sent to Mr. Gary on December 2 8th and said, with these final edits, you're 3 authorized to send on Monday, did you check in 4 with Ms. Tucker or Mr. Troester before the letter 5 went out? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And when you checked in with them -- when 8 did you check in with them? 9 A. I think it would have been -- it would 10 have been either Monday or Tuesday, the following 11 Monday or Tuesday. 12 Q. And on either Monday, December 11th or 13 Tuesday, December 12th, when you checked in with 14 them, did either Ms. Tucker or Mr. Troester give 15 you authorization to send the letter out? 16 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Compound. 17 THE WITNESS: I believe one of them must 18 have, because the letter went out around that 19 time. 20 BY MR. HO: 21 22 Q. So -- but your best memory is that you received final authorization to send the letter Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 159 1 from either Ms. Tucker or Mr. Troester, correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. And your recollection is you received 4 final authorization to send that letter either on 5 Monday, December 11th or on Tuesday, December 6 12th, correct? 7 A. That's my best recollection -- well, 8 although I may be wrong about that, now that I 9 think about that. I can't remember the date the 10 letter was sent. 11 could have been a couple of days later. 12 remember exactly. 13 14 Q. And I don't believe -- so it I don't Well, the letter is stamped December 12th, 2017. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. That's a Tuesday. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. You said that you -- you testified that 19 you had spoken with either Ms. Tucker or 20 Mr. Troester on either Monday or Tuesday, December 21 11th or December 12th. 22 So it was when you had a conversation Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 160 1 with them, with one of them, on either the 11th or 2 the 12th, that you received final authorization 3 for the letter to go out, correct? 4 A. I believe that's correct. 5 Q. So one of them, either Ms. Tucker or 6 Mr. Troester, gave final authorization to send the 7 letter, and it was either on December 11th or on 8 December 12th, correct? 9 A. I would say that one of them communicated 10 final authorization on one of those dates, and I 11 imagine it was the 12th, since that's the date the 12 letter went out. 13 Q. If one of them, as you say, communicated 14 final authorization, where did that final 15 authorization come from? 16 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 17 THE WITNESS: I believe it would have 18 come from the attorney general. 19 BY MR. HO: 20 Q. Okay. Vague. Let's talk about Exhibit 17, the 21 December 12th, 2017, letter that's in front of 22 you. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 161 1 A. I'm just going to finish reading it. 2 Q. Well, you've looked at the first page of 3 this letter, right, Mr. Gore? 4 A. Yes. Ever. Yes. 5 Q. From looking at the first page of this 6 letter, does it refresh your recollection that 7 this is the letter that the Department of Justice 8 sent to the Census Bureau to request a citizenship 9 question on the 2020 census? 10 A. Again, if I can finish reading the 11 letter, I can verify whether I believe it's the 12 same letter. 13 Q. So the first -- reading the first page 14 doesn't refresh your recollection as to whether or 15 not this is the letter? 16 A. It appears to be the letter. 17 Q. Okay. The letter signed by Mr. Gary 18 represents the Department of Justice's final 19 decision and statement of position with respect to 20 the issue of the citizenship question on the 21 census, correct? 22 A. Yes. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 162 1 2 Q. And this letter represents the views of the Department of Justice, connect? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. And Attorney General Sessions agrees with 5 the views expressed in this letter, correct? 6 7 MR. GARDNER: speculation. 8 9 Calls for Lack of foundation. THE WITNESS: I can't speak for what Attorney General Sessions believes or does not 10 believe. 11 BY MR. HO: 12 Objection. Q. You believe that the attorney general 13 agrees with the views expressed in this letter, 14 correct? 15 16 MR. GARDNER: foundation. 17 Objection. Lack of Calls for speculation. THE WITNESS: I would be speculating. 18 don't think I can answer that question. 19 BY MR. HO: 20 Q. I Mr. Gore, can you look at what we marked 21 earlier as Exhibit 12 -- I'm sorry, Exhibit 2. 22 was your testimony in Congress. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 It 802 Page 163 802 1 A. Uh-huh. 2 Q. Please turn to page 23. 3 A. Sure. 4 Q. Sorry. 5 no. I'm sorry. 6 I think I meant page 24. I had it right. Oh, no, Page 23. The fourth paragraph down here, there's a 7 question from Member Lynch: 8 General Sessions you're talking about." 9 "This is Attorney Your answer is, "It represents the view 10 of the department, so I believe the attorney 11 general agrees with that view. 12 13 Yes." That was your testimony in Congress, correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you gave truthful testimony that day, 16 correct? 17 A. I did. 18 Q. Are there any reasons that the Department 19 of Justice has for wanting a citizenship question 20 on the census that were communicated to the 21 Department of Commerce but are not contained in 22 this letter? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 164 1 2 MR. GARDNER: for a yes or no, you may answer that question. 3 4 5 To the extent you're asking THE WITNESS: I don't know. BY MR. HO: Q. Are there any -- just to be clear, there 6 are no reasons that you're aware of that the 7 Department of Justice wants a citizenship question 8 on the 2020 census that are not reflected in this 9 letter, correct? 10 11 12 13 A. That's correct. I'm aware of no such reasons. Q. This letter is addressed to Dr. Ron Jarmin, correct? 14 A. Yes, it is. 15 Q. And Dr. Jarmin is the acting director of 16 the Census Bureau, correct? 17 A. That's my understanding. 18 Q. Why is the letter addressed to him? 19 A. Because he is the acting director of the 20 21 22 Yes. Census Bureau. Q. Why isn't it addressed to someone from the Department of Commerce? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 165 1 A. I believe that you showed me a letter 2 earlier that was sent from the Department of 3 Justice to then Acting Director Thompson. 4 I understand it to be the practice, when the 5 Department of Justice wants additional questions 6 or information collected by the Census Bureau, 7 either through the census or the ACS or some other 8 instrument, to address that request to the head or 9 acting head of the Census Bureau. 10 11 Q. You're aware that Dr. Jarmin has worked at the Census Bureau for 25 years? 12 A. I'm not aware of that, no. 13 Q. Okay. 14 15 16 17 And so You're aware that Dr. Jarmin has a Ph.D. in economics? A. I take from his title that he has a Ph.D. in something. Q. I don't know what it's in. Who do you think knows more about the 18 accuracy of various forms of CVAP data, Dr. Jarmin 19 or you? 20 21 22 MR. GARDNER: speculation. Objection. Calls for Lack of foundation. THE WITNESS: I have no idea. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 166 1 BY MR. HO: 2 Q. You have no idea whether or not the 3 director of the Census Bureau knows more about the 4 accuracy of various forms of CVAP data than you 5 do? 6 7 MR. GARDNER: speculation. 8 9 Objection. Calls for Lack of foundation. THE WITNESS: Again, I don't know anything about Mr. Jarmin -- Dr. Jarmin's 10 background or the work he's done at the Census 11 Bureau. 12 question. 13 BY MR. HO: 14 Q. So I have no basis to answer that Do you think that you know more about the 15 accuracy of various forms of CVAP data than the 16 professionals at the Census Bureau? 17 18 19 MR. GARDNER: speculation. Objection. Calls for Lack of foundation. THE WITNESS: Again, I don't know what 20 the professionals at the Census Bureau know or 21 don't know. 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 167 1 2 BY MR. HO: Q. If the professionals of the Census Bureau 3 told you that a particular form of CVAP data were 4 the most accurate form of CVAP data at the census 5 block level, would you trust their judgment? 6 7 MR. GARDNER: Calls for a hypothetical. 8 9 Objection. THE WITNESS: Again, that calls for a hypothetical, and I would want to know more 10 information about why they reached that decision 11 or that judgment and what other information were 12 available in making that judgment. 13 BY MR. HO: 14 15 Q. Do you have any background in statistics, Mr. Gore? 16 A. No. 17 Q. No graduate degree in survey -- I'm 18 sorry, in anything quantitative? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Any experience collecting survey data? 21 A. I think I did a survey collection in 22 college. But other than that, no. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 168 1 2 Q. Any experience assessing the statistical validity of survey data? 3 A. No. 4 Q. You know that people in the Census Bureau 5 do have a lot of experience assessing the 6 statistical validity of survey data, right? 7 A. I imagine that there are people in the 8 Census Bureau who have that expertise and 9 experience. I don't know whether Dr. Jarmin or 10 anyone else in particular does. 11 identify anyone at the Census Bureau who has that 12 expertise. 13 Q. And I couldn't But you would expect that there are 14 people in the Census Bureau with expertise in 15 assessing the validity of various forms of survey 16 data, wouldn't you, Mr. Gore? 17 A. I would certainly hope so. 18 Q. And you don't have any such expertise, 19 right? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Okay. 22 Prior to this letter, in the entire 53-year history of the Voting Rights Act, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601 Page 169 1 the Department of Justice had never requested a 2 citizenship question on the decennial census 3 questionnaire that's sent to every household in 4 the United States, correct? 5 6 MR. GARDNER: Lack of foundation. 7 THE WITNESS: 8 knowledge. 9 BY MR. HO: 10 Objection. Q. That is correct. To my The first page of this letter, in the 11 first paragraph, the second-to-last sentence 12 reads, "To fully enforce those requirements, the 13 department needs a reliable calculation of citizen 14 voting age population in localities where voting 15 rights violations are alleged or suspected. 16 demonstrated below, the decennial census 17 questionnaire is the most appropriate vehicle for 18 collecting that data and reinstating a question on 19 citizenship will best enable the department to 20 protect all American citizens' voting rights under 21 Section 2." 22 As It's the position of the Department of Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601 Page 170 1 Justice that the decennial census questionnaire is 2 the most appropriate vehicle for collecting CVAP 3 data for purposes of VRA enforcement, correct? 4 5 6 A. Yes. for itself. Q. And -- I think the letter speaks But yes, that's the position. And the letter purports to establish why 7 the decennial census questionnaire is the most 8 appropriate vehicle for collecting CVAP data for 9 purposes of VRA enforcement, correct? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. You testified in Congress that your 12 belief is that the decennial census questionnaire 13 is the most appropriate vehicle for collecting 14 CVAP data for purposes of VRA enforcement, 15 correct? 16 A. I believe I did. Yes. 17 Q. Let's look at page 2 of the Gary letter. 18 That's what I'm going to refer to as shorthand, 19 this request, Exhibit 17. 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. So the second paragraph on page 2, the 22 second sentence reads -- it's about four lines Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 171 1 down -- "From 1970 through the 2000 census, the 2 Census Bureau collected citizen" -- I'm sorry. 3 "From 1970 to 2000, the Census Bureau 4 included a citizenship question on the so-called 5 long-form questionnaire that it sent to 6 approximately one in every six households during 7 each decennial census." 8 9 To your understanding, is it accurate to say the from the 1970 through the 2000 censuses, 10 the Census Bureau collected citizenship 11 information through the census long form? 12 A. That's my understanding. 13 Q. And the long form was not sent to every 14 household in the United States, correct? 15 A. That's my understanding. 16 Q. The long form was sent to a sample of 17 households in the United States, correct? 18 A. That appears to be correct. 19 Q. And because the long form was sent only 20 to a sample of households, the citizenship data 21 that the Census Bureau published based on 22 long-form responses were statistical estimates, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 172 1 correct? 2 A. I actually don't know that. I don't know 3 what form those -- that data was reported in by 4 the Census Bureau. 5 Q. Okay. So you don't know whether or not 6 citizenship data derived from long-form responses 7 was reported by the Census Bureau as a hard count 8 or as a statistical estimate, correct? 9 A. That's correct. I understand from this 10 if not every household was sent a long form, I can 11 imagine that there was some estimate that was 12 done. 13 like. 14 But I don't know what those results look Q. Okay. So just so we're clear, right, if 15 you take a sample, a survey sample, and you try to 16 derive generalized data from that survey sample, 17 right, you understand that that generalized data 18 would be a statistical estimate, correct? 19 A. For purposes of this conversation, sure, 20 I understand that. 21 describe it. 22 Q. If that's how you want to Do you want to describe it in a different Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 173 1 way? 2 A. No. That's fine. 3 Q. So you agree with me that, if you take a 4 survey sample and you try to derive generalizable 5 data from that survey sample, that that 6 generalized data would be a statistical estimate, 7 correct? 8 A. Sure. 9 Q. Okay. So you understand that citizenship 10 data derived from the long form was a statistical 11 estimate, right, Mr. Gore? 12 A. What I'm trying to convey to you -- let 13 me go straight to the heart of the matter. 14 not sure how the Census Bureau reported this 15 citizenship data in these years. 16 it, so I don't know. 17 18 19 Q. I haven't seen My question wasn't about the how the Census Bureau reported it. A. I'm My question was -- I think that was your question. Your 20 question was the Census Bureau reported it in a 21 particular way. 22 Q. And I don't know that. My question was, you understand that Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 174 1 citizenship data derived from the long form would 2 be a statistical estimate, correct? 3 A. I believe that to be correct. 4 Q. Okay. The last sentence in the second 5 paragraph reads, "For years, the department used 6 the data collected in response to that question in 7 assessing compliance with Section 2 and in 8 litigation to enforce Section 2's protections 9 against racial discrimination in voting." 10 Where the letter says, "that question," 11 it's referring to the citizenship question on the 12 long form, correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. That appears to be correct. So for years, the Department of 15 Justice relied on citizenship data collected 16 through the census long form for purposes of VRA 17 enforcement, correct? 18 A. That's my understanding. Yes. 19 Q. And after the long form was discontinued, 20 the Department of Justice began relying on 21 citizenship data collected through the ACS for 22 purposes of VRA enforcement, correct? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 175 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. And -- so it would be accurate to say 3 that even when there was a citizenship question on 4 the census long form, the Department of Justice, 5 when it was using citizenship data for purposes of 6 VRA enforcement, it was using data that were 7 statistical estimates based on a sample, correct? 8 9 10 A. I believe that's correct, if I follow your question. Q. So it's accurate to say that the 11 Department of Justice, for as long as it's been 12 enforcing the Voting Rights Act, when it's needed 13 citizenship data, it has always relied on 14 statistical estimates rather than hard count data, 15 correct? 16 17 MR. GARDNER: Objection. foundation. 18 THE WITNESS: To the best of my 19 knowledge, I think that's correct. 20 BY MR. HO: 21 22 Lack of Q. You're not aware of any period of time in which the Department of Justice had access to hard Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601 Page 176 1 count citizenship data for purposes of VRA 2 enforcement, are you, Mr. Gore? 3 A. I'm not aware of that, no. 4 Q. Now, you're aware the ACS is sent to 5 about 2 percent of households in the United States 6 every year, right? 7 A. Sounds about right. 8 Q. And you're aware that the Census Bureau 9 produces different estimates based on the ACS in 10 the form of one-year ACS estimates and five-year 11 ACS estimates, right, Mr. Gore? 12 13 14 15 A. That's correct. I think they have three-year ACS estimates as well. Q. The three-year ACS estimates have been discontinued, right, Mr. Gore? 16 A. That could be. 17 Q. You don't know one way or the other if -- 18 A. I don't -- 19 Q. -- the three-year estimates still exist? 20 A. I'm aware that they existed at one time. 21 Q. One-year ACS estimates are statistical 22 I don't know. estimates based on a single year of ACS survey Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 177 1 responses, correct? 2 A. That's my understanding. 3 Q. And five-year ACS estimates are 4 statistical estimates that are based on ACS 5 responses that are aggregated from a consecutive 6 five-year period, correct? 7 A. It's my understanding. 8 Q. As of the date of the Gary letter, you 9 10 Yes. understood the difference between one-year and five-year ACS estimates, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. ACS one-year estimates are intended for 13 use -- let me start that again. 14 The Census Bureau intends that ACS 15 one-year estimates be used for areas with a 16 population larger than 65,000, right? 17 A. I think that's right. 18 Q. Okay. Let me show you a document. This 19 is a screenshot from the Census Bureau website. 20 We'll mark it as Exhibit 18. 21 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 178 1 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 18 marked for 2 identification and attached to the 3 transcript.) 4 5 BY MR. HO: Q. It's a screenshot from the Census Bureau 6 website entitled, American Community Survey (ACS): 7 When to use one-year, three-year, or five-year 8 estimates. 9 Do you see this table titled, 10 Distinguishing features of ACS one-year, one-year 11 supplemental, three-year, and five-year estimates, 12 Mr. Gore? 13 A. I do, yes. 14 Q. And the far left-hand column has 15 information about one-year estimates, correct? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. And do you see in the third row of that 18 table, second depending on whether you include the 19 header, that the Census Bureau states that 20 one-year estimates are data for areas with 21 populations of 65,000-plus? 22 A. Yes, I see that. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 179 1 Q. So that comports with your understanding, 2 right, that one-year ACS estimates are intended 3 for use only in areas with a population larger 4 than 65,000, correct? 5 A. Yes, that's correct. 6 Q. And did you understand that one-year ACS 7 estimates were intended for use in areas with a 8 population over 65,000 as of the date of the Gary 9 letter? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. The far right-hand column of the table 12 has information on five-year ACS estimates. 13 you see that? 14 A. Yes, I do. 15 Q. And you see where the Census Bureau Do 16 indicates that five-year ACS estimates have the 17 largest sample size of different ACS estimates? 18 A. I do see that on this chart. 19 Q. You don't have any reason to doubt that, 20 Yes. right? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Okay. And you see where on the chart it Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 180 1 states -- the Census Bureau states that five-year 2 ACS estimates are data for all areas, correct? 3 A. Yeah, I do see that. 4 Q. As of the date of the Gary letter on 5 December 12th, 2017, were you aware that the 6 Census Bureau considers five-year ACS estimates to 7 be usable data for all geographic areas regardless 8 of population size? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. All right. Let's talk about the Gary 11 letter a little bit more. 12 second-to-last paragraph, the last sentence reads, 13 "The ACS, however, does not yield the ideal data 14 for such purposes for several reasons." 15 Back to page 2. The In the sentence when the letter refers to 16 "such purposes," that means for purposes of VRA 17 enforcement, correct? 18 A. It refers to that and other purposes. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. It also refers to use by state and local 21 22 What other purposes? jurisdictions in drawing our redistricting plans. Q. Redistricting plans for purposes of Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 181 1 2 3 4 compliance with the Voting Rights Act, correct? A. Yes, with the Voting Rights Act, and with other federal and state law requirements. Q. Why would you need ACS citizenship data 5 to draw districts to comply with other federal and 6 state legal requirements other than Section 2 of 7 the Voting Rights Act? 8 9 A. Section 2 would be predominant. I don't know every state law requirement that might be 10 implicated by that. 11 requirements that require a reference to 12 citizenship data. 13 every state in the union uses total population to 14 achieve compliance with the equal protection 15 clause's one-person/one-vote mandate. 16 believe that in the past there have been 17 jurisdictions that have used other measures. 18 whether a jurisdiction might choose to use that 19 measure, I don't know -- measure of citizenship as 20 opposed to something else. 21 22 Q. There might be state law Currently, to my knowledge, But I And You're not aware of jurisdictions using ACS data for purposes of complying with legal Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 182 1 requirements other than Section 2 of the Voting 2 Rights Act, right, Mr. Gore? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. So when you say that -- sorry. 7 When the letter says that ACS data does 8 not yield ideal data for such purposes, the 9 predominant purpose that you're referring to there 10 for which the ACS is not ideal is Section 2 11 compliance, correct? 12 A. I think the predominant purpose to which 13 the letter is referring is Section 2 compliance. 14 That's correct. 15 16 Q. Okay. After the letter has that statement, there are four bullet points, correct? 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. Okay. 19 20 I want to ask you about each of these bullets. Let's start with the first bullet which 21 reads, "Jurisdictions conducting redistricting and 22 the department, in enforcing Section 2, already Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 183 1 use the total population data from the census to 2 determine compliance with the Constitution's 3 one-person/one-vote requirement (see Evenwel v. 4 Abbott, 136 S.Ct. 1120, April 4th, 2016). 5 result, using the ACS citizenship estimates means 6 relying on two different data sets, the scope and 7 level of detail of which vary quite 8 significantly." 9 As a Did I read that right? 10 A. Yes, you did. 11 Q. Okay. So tell me if I have this right. 12 The point that's being expressed in this bullet is 13 that citizenship data from the ACS is not ideal 14 for purposes of Section 2 compliance and 15 enforcement because ACS citizenship data is a 16 different data set that's separate and apart from 17 the total population data derived from the 18 decennial census; is that right? 19 A. I believe the point speaks for itself, 20 and I think the way you've described it is more or 21 less correct. 22 Q. Okay. Any ways in which the way I just Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 184 1 described it strike you as incorrect? 2 A. Not as I sit here right now, no. 3 Q. Okay. The total population data from the 4 decennial census used for redistricting purposes 5 is part of what the Census Bureau calls the 6 PL94-171 data file, right? 7 A. That's right. 8 Q. Okay. 9 And currently, the citizenship data from the ACS is produced as part of a 10 different data set, the CVAP table from ACS data 11 produced by the Census Bureau, correct? 12 A. That's my understanding, yes. 13 Q. Now, how does the fact that the decennial 14 enumeration data is in one data set, the PL data 15 file, whereas the ACS citizenship data is in a 16 different data set, the CVAP table -- how does the 17 fact that they're in two different data sets 18 render the ACS not ideal data for purposes of 19 Section 2 enforcement? 20 A. Particularly for a map drawer, if -- a 21 map drawer drawing a map in Maptitude or some 22 other software needs to have both of these forms Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601, 602, 802, Improper Expert Testimony under 702 Page 185 1 of information in order to draw districts that 2 comply with the 14th Amendment and with Section 2. 3 And map drawers currently have to go to two 4 different data sets and try to match up those data 5 sets in geography and specificity to the block 6 level in order to perform that function. 7 If all of the data were available in the 8 PL94-171 data set, they wouldn't have to do that. 9 And experts engaged in redistricting litigation, 10 including analyzing alleged violations of 11 Section 2 and proposed remedial plans for proven 12 violations of Section 2, could use a single 13 data set to draw maps and otherwise to analyze 14 Section 2 claims. 15 Q. If the Census Bureau could produce 16 citizenship data as part of the PL data file 17 without including a citizenship question on the 18 census, would that resolve the concern that's 19 expressed in this bullet point? 20 21 22 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for a hypothetical. THE WITNESS: Yeah, again, that's Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601 Page 186 1 hypothetical. 2 either as a matter of law or technical capacity. 3 And I think -- so I don't know the answer to that 4 question. 5 BY MR. HO: 6 Q. I don't know they can do that But if the Census Bureau came to you and 7 said, Mr. Gore, you've requested -- or the 8 department has requested a citizenship question on 9 the census; one of the reasons why is because the 10 citizenship data we're currently giving you is in 11 a different data set, but we've got a solution for 12 you; we're going to put it all in one data set, 13 and we've got a way of doing that without 14 including a citizenship question on the census, 15 would that resolve the bullet -- the concerns 16 expressed in this bullet? 17 18 MR. GARDNER: hypothetical. THE WITNESS: 20 hypothetical on that. 21 BY MR. HO: Q. Calls for a Also, objection, form. 19 22 Objection. Again, I can't engage in a Would you be interested in learning from Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601 Page 187 1 the Census Bureau if the Census Bureau came to you 2 with that suggestion? 3 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: Again, that's a 5 hypothetical. 6 BY MR. HO: 7 Q. Hypothetical. I can't engage in a hypothetical. You don't know whether or not you'd be 8 interested in a proposal from the Census Bureau to 9 give you CVAP data as part of the PL data file 10 without including a citizenship question on the 11 census? 12 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. 13 THE WITNESS: Again, you're asking me a 14 hypothetical without fleshing out all the facts 15 and circumstances, so I can't tell you how anyone, 16 the department or anyone else, would respond to 17 that. 18 BY MR. HO: 19 Q. 20 strike that. 21 22 Has anyone with technical knowledge of -Never mind. Prior to the Department of Justice's reliance on the ACS, the citizenship data from the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 188 1 Census Bureau that DOJ used, we established 2 earlier, that came from the census long form, 3 correct? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. And the census long form citizenship data 6 was not produced as part of the PL data file, 7 correct? 8 A. I don't know the answer to that question. 9 Q. Okay. So you're not aware of any time 10 where the Department of Justice, in enforcing the 11 Voting Rights Act, had a single data set which had 12 total population data and citizenship data in it, 13 right, Mr. Gore? 14 A. I'm not aware one way or the other. 15 Q. Okay. So the bullet in this letter is 16 not expressing a preference for a return to a 17 prior point in time when DOJ had total population 18 data and citizenship data in a single data set, 19 correct? 20 A. Again, I don't know the answer to that 21 question because I don't know what occurred at a 22 prior point in time, as I've just testified. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 189 1 Q. But you're not saying that -- this letter 2 is not saying that there was a prior point in time 3 in which the Department of Justice had both total 4 population and citizenship data in a single data 5 set, correct? 6 7 8 9 A. I think the letter speaks for itself, and this particular bullet doesn't say that. Q. Okay. Are you aware of a case where the Department of Justice was unable to succeed on a 10 VRA claim because citizenship data and total 11 population data were in two different data sets? 12 MR. GARDNER: I'm going to object to the 13 extent that that calls for the disclosure of 14 information subject to law enforcement privilege. 15 You can answer that question to the 16 extent you can do that without disclosing 17 privileged information. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of any such 19 publicly disclosed case. 20 BY MR. HO: 21 22 Q. Okay. MR. HO: So I'm going to sometimes ask Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 190 1 questions about whether or not DOJ has been able 2 to succeed on cases. 3 those questions with limited to cases that have 4 been filed -- right? I'm going to make clear that 5 MR. GARDNER: Okay. 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 MR. HO: 8 MR. GARDNER: That's fair enough. 9 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 10 11 And litigated in court. BY MR. HO: Q. So the cases that DOJ has filed, you're 12 not aware of any of those cases being unsuccessful 13 because citizenship data and total population data 14 were in two different data sets, correct? 15 A. That's correct. Again, we're not talking 16 about cases that weren't filed. 17 any case that was filed was a case that the 18 Department of Justice believed it could win. 19 Q. Okay. And, obviously, You're not aware of any case filed 20 by any plaintiff anywhere under the Voting Rights 21 Act where the claim failed because of the fact 22 that total population data and citizenship data Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 191 1 2 were in two different data sets, correct? A. Again, that's correct with respect to 3 cases that were actually filed. 4 talking about cases that weren't filed. 5 Q. And we're not You're not aware of a case -- and I'm not 6 even going to talk about the Department of 7 Justice -- where people have talked about filing a 8 case publicly, but said, you know what, we're just 9 not going to file this case because population 10 data and citizenship data, they're in two 11 different data sets, right? 12 MR. GARDNER: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: I believe that's right, as 14 I understand your question. 15 BY MR. HO: 16 Q. The second bullet here, which is on page 17 3, top of page 3, reads, "Because the ACS 18 estimates are rolling and aggregated into 19 one-year, three-year, and five-year estimates, 20 they do not align in time with the decennial 21 census data. 22 census, by contrast, would align in time with the Citizenship data from the decennial Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 192 1 total and voting age population data from the 2 census that jurisdictions already use in 3 redistricting." 4 Did I read that right? 5 A. Yes, you did. 6 Q. The point that's being expressed -- 7 correct me if I'm wrong -- in this bullet is that 8 citizenship data from the ACS is not ideal for VRA 9 enforcement purposes because ACS citizenship data 10 purportedly does not align in time with the 11 decennial census data, correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. What do you mean when you say that ACS 14 citizenship data do not align in time with the 15 decennial census? 16 17 A. What do I mean or what does the department mean? 18 Q. What does the department mean? 19 A. I believe what the department means is -- 20 it dovetails with the conversation we had just a 21 moment ago about what the ACS data are. 22 So the ACS data are -- at least for the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 193 1 five-year estimates, are rolling. 2 represent some estimate over five consecutive 3 years. 4 one single year. 5 So they And the one-year estimate is a snapshot of Now, the citizenship data from the 6 decennial census is a recording of data at that 7 point in time, and the ACS data doesn't always 8 align with that particular point in time. 9 may be measuring citizenship data from, if you're So you 10 using a five-year estimate, four or five years 11 before the census or four or five years after the 12 census. 13 population data in the census, and courts use that 14 as well, throughout the entire decade. 15 Q. And jurisdictions use the total So is it your understanding that when 16 experts give testimony in VRA cases using 17 five-year ACS estimates for CVAP, that they are 18 unable to give testimony about CVAP rates that 19 align in time with the decennial census? 20 A. My understanding is that they may or may 21 not be testifying as to CVAP levels that align 22 with the census. It might be possible that they Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 602, Improper Expert Testimony under 702 Page 194 1 do that in some cases; in other cases, they might 2 be looking to data that predates the census or 3 post-dates the census, again, because it's a 4 five-year window as opposed to the same snapshot 5 in time as the decennial census. 6 Q. Are you aware of a filed case by the 7 Department of Justice under the Voting Rights Act 8 where the department was unable to succeed on a 9 VRA claim because of the fact that ACS citizenship 10 data does not align in time with the decennial 11 census data? 12 A. I am not aware of any such filed case. 13 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any case filed by 14 any plaintiff anywhere where the court found 15 that -- against the plaintiffs because the ACS 16 data does not align in time with the decennial 17 census? 18 A. I am not aware of any such filed case. 19 Q. Are you aware of any plaintiff ever 20 declining to file a case because ACS data -- and 21 I'm not talking about the department, not filed 22 cases, because I understand that that's Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 195 1 privileged. 2 But just based on your knowledge as 3 someone who's knowledgeable about the Voting 4 Rights Act, are you aware of any case where any 5 plaintiff outside of DOJ did not bring a case 6 under Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act because 7 ACS data does not align in time with the decennial 8 census? 9 A. 10 I'm not aware of that, and certainly not aware of it from any public information. 11 Q. Okay. Third bullet, which is the second 12 on this page, reads, "The ACS estimates are 13 reported at a 90 percent confidence interval, and 14 the margin of error increases as the sample size 15 and, thus, the geographic area decreases. 16 U.S. Census Bureau glossary, confidence interval 17 (American Community Survey), available at" -- and 18 then there's a website. 19 URL. 20 See I'm not going to read the After the URL, it says, "By contrast, 21 decennial census is a full count of the 22 population." Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 196 1 Did I read that right -- 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. -- other than the URL? 4 5 6 Okay. When the letter says, "margin of error," what do you understand that to mean? A. Because the ACS estimates are estimates, 7 and not a hard count, there's an associated margin 8 in which -- that the Census Bureau assigns a 9 value, usually a percentage, that the Census 10 Bureau assigns to convey that, from a matter of 11 statistics, it has confidence that the true result 12 is somewhere within that range. 13 referred to as the margin of error. 14 Q. Okay. And that's So something like, you know, 15 91 percent -- this is just an example; I just want 16 to see if we understand margin of error the same 17 way -- 91 percent of the voting age people in this 18 area are citizens plus or minus 2 percentage 19 points? 20 A. 21 22 I believe the plus or minus is my understanding of what the margin of error is. Q. Means it could be -- if the point Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 197 1 estimate is 91 percent, it could be 89 -- and it's 2 plus or minus 2 points, it could be 89, it cold be 3 93; somewhere in that range? 4 A. That's my understanding. 5 Q. And you'd agree with me that estimates 6 with a smaller margin of error are more precise 7 than an estimate with a bigger margin of error, 8 right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, the point that's being expressed in 11 this bullet is that citizenship data from the ACS 12 is not ideal for purposes of VRA enforcement 13 because ACS citizenship data has a margin of error 14 that increases as you get to smaller and smaller 15 geographic units, correct? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. Okay. And the letter contrasts those ACS 18 estimates with those margins of error with 19 decennial census data, which are a full count of 20 the population, right? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. You're aware that decennial census data Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 198 1 that's published at the block level also has a 2 margin of error associated with it; it's just not 3 published by the Census Bureau, right? 4 A. I'm aware of that. Yes. 5 Q. You were aware -- so -- I'm sorry. 6 As of the date of the Gary letter, were 7 you already aware that the decennial enumeration 8 data contained margins of error? 9 A. I was aware generally that there were 10 margin of errors that the Census Bureau imputed to 11 that data. 12 Q. I don't know what those margins were. But as of the date of the Gary letter, 13 you knew that even what is referred to in the Gary 14 letter as full count data has margins of error 15 associated with it, too, correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. The Gary letter doesn't mention 18 that full count data from the decennial census has 19 margins of error, does it? 20 A. It doesn't appear to, no. 21 Q. Okay. 22 So just so I'm clear here, the Gary letter contrasts full count decennial census Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 199 1 data with ACS estimates by noting that ACS 2 estimates have a margin of error, but the Gary 3 letter does not mention that full count decennial 4 census data also has margins of error, correct? 5 A. Not correct, because the Gary letter also 6 draws a contrast with the 90 percent confidence 7 interval for the ACS. 8 9 10 Q. My question wasn't about other different kinds of contrasts between the ACS and the -A. You're asking me about the third bullet, 11 and I think, in fairness, you should ask me about 12 the full third bullet and not a piece of it. 13 14 Q. Well, I think I'm asking you a question about the full bullet, Mr. Gore. 15 My question is this: The bullet mentions 16 the fact that ACS estimates have a confidence 17 interval associated with them, or a margin of 18 error associated with them, correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And it contrasts the fact that they have 21 a confidence interval or margin of error in the 22 ACS to the decennial census data, which is a, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 200 1 quote, full count of the population, correct? 2 A. No, that's incorrect. 3 Q. The letter reads -- 4 A. It's not a confidence interval or a 5 margin of error. 6 margin of error. It's a confidence interval and a 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. Please. 9 Q. The ACS data is criticized in this bullet 10 11 So let's try this again. as having a margin of error, correct? A. I don't believe it's criticized. I 12 believe it's described as having a margin of 13 error. 14 Q. Okay. So let's try that again. The ACS 15 data are described in this bullet as having a 16 margin of error, correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And the letter reads, "By contrast, 19 decennial census data is a full count of the 20 population," correct? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. And the bullet does not mention that Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 201 1 decennial census data have margins of error 2 associated with them, correct? 3 4 5 A. That's correct, as I've already testified. Q. Okay. Now, when citizenship data was 6 derived from the long form questionnaire, that was 7 data that also had a margin of error associated 8 with it, correct? 9 A. I would imagine that's correct. 10 Q. Okay. So you'd agree that, as far as you 11 know, the Department of Justice, when it's relied 12 on citizenship data, that citizenship data has 13 always had a margin of error associated with it, 14 correct? 15 A. That's my understanding. 16 Q. Okay. This letter doesn't mention the 17 fact that citizenship data collected from the 18 census long form were, like the ACS, also 19 statistical estimates with a margin of error 20 associated with them, correct? 21 A. I'm sorry, can you repeat the question? 22 Q. Sure. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 202 1 This letter, the Gary letter, it doesn't 2 mention the fact that citizenship data collected 3 from the long form were statistical estimates with 4 a margin of error associated with them, just like 5 the ACS, correct? 6 A. If I can just say, I think what you mean 7 is citizenship data reported from the long form 8 questionnaire, not collected by the long form 9 questionnaire. 10 But my understanding is that, yes, 11 citizenship data reported from the long form 12 questionnaire were estimates. 13 Q. And the letter doesn't mention the fact 14 that citizenship data collected from the long form 15 questionnaire and reported from the long form 16 questionnaire were, like the ACS, also statistical 17 estimates that had margins of error, correct? 18 A. I think that's correct with respect to 19 reported from the long form questionnaire. 20 don't know if that's correct with respect to 21 collected by the long form questionnaire because I 22 don't know if the Census Bureau engaged in Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 I Page 203 1 statistical estimates when it was actually 2 collecting the responses to the long form 3 questionnaire. 4 Q. 5 Thank you. The letter doesn't mention that the 6 Department of Justice has always relied on 7 statistical estimates of citizenship with margins 8 of error for purposes of VRA enforcement, does it? 9 10 11 A. I believe that's correct. Again, the letter speaks for itself. Q. Okay. You're not aware of a single filed 12 case by the Department of Justice where the 13 Department of Justice was unable to succeed on a 14 VRA claim because of the fact that the CVAP data 15 on which DOJ was relying was a statistical 16 estimate with a margin of error that increases as 17 the geographic area decreases, correct? 18 A. I am not aware of any such filed case. 19 Q. You're not aware of any case where a 20 plaintiff was unable to succeed on a VRA claim 21 because of the fact the five-year ACS citizenship 22 data have a margin of error associated with them, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 204 1 correct? 2 A. Five-year estimates? 3 Q. Okay. That's correct. You're not aware of any case where 4 plaintiffs, other than DOJ, declined to bring a 5 VRA case -- let me start that question again. 6 You're not aware of any case where 7 plaintiffs declined to bring a VRA claim because 8 ACS data are statistical estimates with a margin 9 of error, correct? 10 A. That is correct. I am aware of one case 11 in which a court held that the one-year ACS 12 estimate, because of its associated margin of 13 error, was insufficiently reliable to allow the 14 plaintiff in that case to proceed with a Section 2 15 claim. 16 Q. Right. 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. We'll talk about that in a bit, but I 19 That's the Benavidez case, right? want to talk about something else first. 20 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 19 marked for 21 identification and attached to the 22 transcript.) Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 205 1 BY MR. HO: 2 3 Q. I'm going to show you a document that's marked as Exhibit 19. 4 MR. HO: 5 side. 6 deposition. 7 BY MR. HO: 8 9 You guys have seen this on your It was used in the Abowd 30(b)(6) Q. I'm going to represent to you that this is a map derived from census data from the Census 10 Bureau website. 11 files to show census blocks in the Fort Myers, 12 Florida, area with total population numbers for 13 each census block. 14 And it was joined with Tiger So the lines represent the borders of 15 census blocks. The numbers represent the total 16 population in each census block. 17 Everything I say make sense to you? Okay? 18 A. I accept your representation. 19 Q. Thank you. 20 Okay. So I just want to try to understand DOJ's 21 position here about why you need CVAP data at the 22 block level. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 206 1 Is it correct that the Department of 2 Justice, when you look at a map like this and you 3 want to bring a Section 2 case, and you see these 4 population numbers here, you want to know how many 5 of the people in each of these blocks with hard 6 count numbers are voting age citizens as opposed 7 to simply having a statistical estimate of the 8 voting age citizens in each block, correct? 9 MR. GARDNER: Objection to the extent 10 that that calls for information that is subject to 11 deliberative process privilege. 12 To the extent you can answer that 13 question without divulging that information, you 14 may do so. 15 THE WITNESS: The position of the 16 Department of Justice is that we want to have the 17 most complete, accurate, reliable data we can 18 possibly have. 19 We have the ACS data. We have been 20 bringing cases using the ACS data. We believe 21 that having a hard count citizenship data from the 22 census questionnaire would give us another Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 NonResponsive Page 207 1 data point that we could use to identify 2 jurisdictions for potential Section 2 3 investigations and enforcement. 4 I don't believe it's disputed by anybody 5 that a litigant, any plaintiff, the Department of 6 Justice or a private plaintiff, needs block-level 7 data in order to bring Section 2 redistricting 8 claims -- now, whether that's derived from the ACS 9 or from some other source -- because when 10 jurisdictions draw districts to achieve equal 11 population, they use block-level data. 12 So, for example, on this map you've 13 handed me, a map drawer might draw various lines 14 through this area. 15 population is moving between those areas and what 16 the citizenship composition and the racial 17 composition of those areas is is essential to 18 identifying potential Section 2 violations. 19 BY MR. HO: 20 21 22 Q. map. Okay. And understanding what So let's look at the middle of the Do you see where it says Lee? A. Yes. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 208 1 Q. Right in the middle. 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. There's a census block right above, or 4 overlapping with that, that indicated there are -- 5 and the map indicates there are five people living 6 on that block. 7 Do you see that? 8 A. I do see that. 9 Q. Let's just assume for a moment that all 10 those five people are voting age. Okay? 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. All things being equal, the Department of 13 Justice would prefer to have a hard account of how 14 many of those five people are citizens as opposed 15 to a statistical estimate derived from the ACS as 16 to how many of those people are citizens, correct? 17 18 19 MR. GARDNER: Objection to the extent it calls for hypothetical. THE WITNESS: It calls for a 20 hypothetical, and I think you've misrepresented 21 our position. We want to have as much data as we 22 possibly can. We live in a data-driven world. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 209 1 This is one point of data that we would want to 2 use, and we're using other data as well to 3 identify potential Section 2 investigations and 4 enforcement actions. 5 BY MR. HO: 6 Q. So the way things work right now is, you 7 take an ACS estimate of the percentage of voting 8 age people in a census block who are citizens, and 9 then you look at the census blocks within that -- 10 sorry. 11 within that census block group, and then you 12 estimate how many of the people in that census 13 block are actually citizens of voting age based on 14 the ACS estimate, right? 15 A. You look at the individual census blocks I think that's right to the extent I 16 understood your question. I believe what you're 17 saying is the ACS data is reported at the census 18 block group level, and then estimates can be 19 derived for individual census blocks based on that 20 data at the group level. 21 Q. Right. So let's take this block of five 22 people. Right? If the block group that this was Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601 Page 210 1 in, the ACS reported 60 percent of the people in 2 that block group are citizens, what you would do 3 right now is you take that 60 percent number and 4 then you apply it to the individual blocks. 5 you would look at this group of five and you'd 6 say, well, our estimate is three of those five 7 people are citizens, correct? 8 9 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 10 Objection. So Form. Hypothetical. THE WITNESS: That would be one way to 11 estimate census block citizenship data from an ACS 12 estimate at the block group level. 13 BY MR. HO: 14 Q. And what the Department of Justice is 15 saying is that we have these estimates, but we'd 16 also like a hard count, because if we had the 17 decennial census questionnaire out there and had 18 the citizenship question posed, we would know with 19 a hard count instead of an estimate -- instead of 20 only an estimate -- how many of those five people 21 are, in fact, citizens, correct? 22 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Form. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601 Page 211 1 THE WITNESS: That's more or less 2 correct. 3 accurate and most complete data we can possibly 4 have. 5 BY MR. HO: 6 Q. I believe we want to have the best, most Okay. Now, you know that the only data 7 the Census Bureau makes available to DOJ is 8 aggregate statistical data over a geographical 9 area and not individual census responses, right? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And your understanding is that individual 12 responses to the census questionnaire by law have 13 to stay with the Census Bureau and can't be shared 14 with the Department of Justice or the public, 15 correct? 16 A. That is my understanding. Correct. 17 Q. And the reason why the Census Bureau can 18 only give you that aggregate statistical 19 information covering a geographical area rather 20 than an individual response is because title 13 21 prohibits disclosure of individual responses to 22 the census, correct? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 212 1 A. That is my understanding. That's 2 correct. 3 civil rights division, what we have traditionally 4 used is only publicly available aggregate data 5 from the census. 6 Q. And let me just add further, in the Let's look back at this map and that 7 census block that we were talking about that had 8 five people on it. 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. To the right of that census block there's 11 a census block with one person on it. 12 Do you see that? 13 A. Yes, I do. 14 Q. Okay. For this census block with only 15 one person on it, if the Census Bureau is going to 16 tell you whether or not that person responded 17 affirmatively or negatively to the citizenship 18 question on the census questionnaire, that would 19 violate title 13, right? 20 MR. GARDNER: Objection to the extent it 21 calls for a hypothetical. Also, objection to the 22 extent it calls for a legal conclusion. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 213 1 THE WITNESS: I haven't studies title 13, 2 so I don't know the exact parameters of it. 3 BY MR. HO: 4 Q. Well, you just told me before that 5 individual census responses are prohibited from 6 disclosure. You understand that, right? 7 A. I do. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. What I don't know is what exceptions, if 10 any, apply to that particular prohibition. As a 11 general matter, I understand that that's a 12 prohibition. 13 I'm not in a position to give a legal opinion on 14 it one way or the other. 15 testified to before was my general understanding 16 of title 13. 17 Q. I've not studied the issue, and so Okay. But that's my -- what I Your expectation is that when you 18 requested a citizenship question on the census 19 questionnaire, that the Census Bureau was going to 20 include it, collect that information, and give it 21 to the Department of Justice on a block-by-block 22 level, correct? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 214 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. How can the Census Bureau give you 3 block-by-block information based on responses to 4 the census questionnaire for this block with one 5 person on it without telling you how that person 6 responded to the citizenship question on the 7 census questionnaire? 8 MR. GARDNER: 9 legal conclusion. 10 Objection. Calls for a Lack of foundation. THE WITNESS: Again, I haven't studied 11 the question as a legal matter. 12 anticipate, in any event, that the Census Bureau 13 would provide an individual's actual questionnaire 14 to the Department of Justice in connection with 15 our request. 16 BY MR. HO: 17 18 Q. 21 22 That wasn't my question about whether or not they were going to give you a questionnaire. 19 20 I would not You want individual block-level data derived from the census questionnaire -A. I actually think it was your question. Because, as I understand title 13, it's a Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 215 1 prohibition on providing the individual 2 questionnaire. 3 Q. So your understanding is that when the 4 Census Bureau includes a citizenship question on 5 the 2020 census questionnaire, collects it, 6 aggregates it block by block, that for this census 7 block with one person on it, what they tell you is 8 going to reflect that one person's answer to the 9 citizenship question? 10 MR. GARDNER: 11 Mischaracterizes the witness' prior testimony. 12 THE WITNESS: 13 I testified to. 14 BY MR. HO: 15 Objection. Q. Okay. I don't believe that's what What's your understanding of what 16 the Census Bureau is going to give you for this 17 census block of one person in terms of CVAP data 18 when the citizenship question is included on the 19 census? 20 21 22 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for a hypothetical. THE WITNESS: I have no understanding of Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 216 1 what the Census Bureau is going to do or what data 2 it's going to provide us in the future related to 3 this request. 4 BY MR. HO: 5 Q. You don't know one way or the other, is 6 what you're saying, whether or not, when the 7 Census Bureau gives you block-by-block CVAP data 8 derived from responses to the census 9 questionnaire, whether or not, with respect to a 10 block that has one person on it, that that 11 individual block-level CVAP data is going to 12 reflect that person's response to the citizenship 13 question on the census, correct? 14 15 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 16 Objection. Form. Hypothetical. THE WITNESS: Again, that's hypothetical. 17 What I'm telling you is I don't know how the 18 Census Bureau planned to report the data that 19 we've requested. 20 BY MR. HO: 21 22 Q. So you don't know one way or the other whether or not the data that you've requested Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 217 1 that's reported from the Census Bureau is going 2 to, in fact, be derived from responses to the 3 citizenship question on the census questionnaire, 4 correct? 5 A. That's not what I said. What I said was 6 I don't know the form that the reporting is going 7 to take. 8 Bureau -- what form they're going to provide the 9 information to us in. 10 Q. I don't know what information the Census Well, that wasn't my question about the 11 form. I'm just talking about a census block with 12 one person on it. 13 You want block-by-block data from the 14 Census Bureau. 15 correct? That's what you've requested, 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. Okay. So when you get block-by-block 18 level -- block-by-block CVAP data from the Census 19 Bureau derived from responses to the citizenship 20 questionnaire, you don't know whether or not, when 21 you get data back from the Census Bureau about a 22 block that has one person on it, whether or not Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 218 1 that citizenship data that you get is going to 2 reflect that person's response to the citizenship 3 question, correct? 4 5 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 6 Objection. Form. Hypothetical. THE WITNESS: Again, I don't know what 7 form the reporting of the data is going to take 8 from the Census Bureau in the future because it 9 hasn't happened yet. Moreover, the Department of 10 Justice -- and I imagine the Department of 11 Commerce as well -- will abide by all legal 12 requirements with respect to privacy and personal 13 identifiable information, whether they're 14 contained in title 13 or something else. 15 BY MR. HO: 16 Q. So -- 17 A. If you're asking me whether you could 18 draw some inference about citizenship based on the 19 data that's reported, I also don't know that, 20 because I don't know what data is going to be 21 reported. 22 Q. It hasn't been reported yet. So I'm not asking about the format of the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 219 1 data, like if it's in an Excel spreadsheet 2 or something like that, and I'm not -- 3 A. No, of course you are. 4 Q. -- asking about -- and I'm not asking 5 about whether or not you plan on violating title 6 13. I'm asking a much simpler question than that. 7 It's that when the Census Bureau gives 8 you block-by-block citizenship data, as you've 9 requested, based on responses to the citizenship 10 questionnaire, right now, you don't know, if 11 you're looking at a block with one person on it, 12 whether or not that citizenship data that you get 13 from the Census Bureau is going to reflect the 14 response to the citizenship questionnaire, 15 correct? 16 MR. GARDNER: Same objections. 17 THE WITNESS: Of course I don't know 18 that, because I don't know what the data is going 19 to be. 20 completes the census questionnaire is going to 21 complete it fully or something else. 22 idea. And I don't know whether the person who I have no Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601 Page 220 1 BY MR. HO: 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. You're asking about something that might 4 happen in the future. 5 don't know. 6 Q. That's a hypothetical. I Well, this is the data that the 7 Department of Justice has requested. You've 8 requested that the Census Bureau go block by 9 block and ask -- 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. -- people block by block, every member of 12 every household, how many people are citizens and 13 not, correct? 14 A. That is correct. 15 Q. And you expect that the CVAP table that 16 you get from the Census Bureau on a block-by-block 17 basis is going to reflect answers to those 18 citizenship questions, correct? 19 A. That would be my expectation. 20 Q. Okay. Yes. But my question for you is -- and 21 if you don't know the answer, just say you don't 22 know; that's okay -- Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 221 1 A. I've said now five or six times that I 2 don't know, because you're asking me a 3 hypothetical question. 4 Q. I haven't asked the question yet. 5 A. You've asked it now six or eight times 6 7 and -Q. Well, Mr. Gore, it's not hypothetical. 8 You understand that there are census blocks with 9 one human on them, correct? 10 A. I do understand that. 11 Q. Okay. Yes. If the Census Bureau is going to 12 give you CVAP data for that block and tell you 13 whether or not that person is a citizen, you don't 14 know, sitting here today, whether or not that -- 15 that data that the Census Bureau is going to give 16 you is going to reflect that person's answer to 17 the citizenship question on the census, correct? 18 A. I don't know what that data is going to 19 reflect because, again, you're asking me about a 20 hypothetical. 21 22 MR. GARDNER: I don't want to interrupt you line of questions, but it's about a quarter to Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 222 1 1:00. Do you want to break for lunch soon? 2 3 4 MR. HO: In a minute. BY MR. HO: Q. Is it your understanding that, when the 5 Census Bureau reports citizenship data after the 6 2020 census about a block that has one person on 7 it, that that citizenship data reported by the 8 Census Bureau will indicate whether or not that 9 person responded to the citizenship question on 10 the census by stating whether he or she is a 11 citizen? 12 13 14 A. I'm sorry, can you try that again? I didn't follow that. Q. Sure. Is it your understanding that, 15 when the Census Bureau reports CVAP data block by 16 block after the 2020 census, that, with respect to 17 blocks that have only one person on it, that the 18 CVAP data reported by the Census Bureau will 19 reflect the answer that that person gave to the 20 citizenship question on the census questionnaire? 21 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Form. 22 THE WITNESS: My understanding is that Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 223 1 that would certainly be possible, just like it 2 would reflect information about that person's race 3 that they would have provided on the census 4 questionnaire. 5 BY MR. HO: 6 Q. Now, you're aware that the Census Bureau 7 intends to use techniques such as synthetic data 8 noise infusion to avoid the disclosure of people's 9 responses to the census questionnaire? 10 11 MR. GARDNER: THE WITNESS: 13 some techniques. 14 technique. 15 BY MR. HO: 17 18 19 20 Lack of foundation. 12 16 Objection. Q. I'm aware that there are I don't know that particular I'm not familiar with it. So you've never heard the term "synthetic data noise infusion" before? A. I believe I may have heard it. I just don't understand it. Q. You're not aware that synthetic noise 21 infusion is a practice whereby the Census Bureau 22 intends to replace some sensitive information Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601 Page 224 1 about a census respondent with different 2 information based on sample data from a 3 statistical model when it publishes the data? 4 A. I generally have that understanding. I 5 cannot perform that particular data manipulation 6 myself. 7 Q. You're aware that, because of disclosure 8 avoidance procedures, that when CVAP data is 9 reported by the Census Bureau after the 10 2020 census, that even with a citizenship question 11 on the 2020 census, that that CVAP data at the 12 block level will have error margins associated 13 with it, correct? 14 15 16 A. I believe -- I'm sorry, can you repeat the question? Q. Sure. You're aware that, because of 17 disclosure avoidance procedures like synthetic 18 noise infusion, which we talked about a second 19 ago, that even with the citizenship question on 20 the 2020 census questionnaire, the CVAP data 21 produced by the Census Bureau at the block level 22 will have error margins associated with it, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 225 1 2 correct? A. I'm not aware of that because I don't 3 understand the causal relationship between those 4 masking techniques and any margin of error. 5 Moreover, I don't know what techniques the Census 6 Bureau plans to use or how it plans to deploy 7 those with respect to responses to the 8 2020 census. 9 Q. 10 Okay. sorry. So before you requested -- I'm Let me start that again. 11 Before the Department of Justice 12 requested a citizenship question be added to the 13 2020 census questionnaire, you didn't attempt to 14 ascertain whether or not the data derived from the 15 question would produce error margins or not, 16 correct? 17 A. I believe what I said was I was aware 18 that there are margins of error that can be 19 associated with the census data. 20 the Census Bureau plans to ask this question or 21 what it plans to do with respect to data collected 22 in response to that question. I don't know how Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 226 1 Q. But you're aware, are you not, that the 2 Census Bureau today does not know whether or not 3 the margins of error associated with the CVAP data 4 that it produces based on responses to the census 5 questionnaire will have margins of error that are 6 larger or smaller than the CVAP data currently 7 used by the Department of Justice? 8 9 10 MR. GARDNER: BY MR. HO: Q. 11 12 Objection. Right? MR. GARDNER: Objection. foundation. 13 THE WITNESS: I am not aware of the 14 Census Bureau's view on that issue. 15 BY MR. HO: 16 Lack of Q. Okay. So you didn't try to determine, 17 before requesting a citizenship question on the 18 census questionnaire, whether or not CVAP data 19 derived from that citizenship question would, in 20 fact, have smaller margins of error than the CVAP 21 data currently relied on by the Department of 22 Justice, correct? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 227 1 A. Are you asking about me, personally? 2 used the word "you" in your question. 3 to understand who you're asking -- 4 Q. The Department of Justice. 5 A. Ah. 6 7 You I just want I'm not aware of what the Department of Justice may or may not have done. Q. When did you become aware of the fact 8 that, due to disclosure avoidance techniques, CVAP 9 data derived from responses to the citizenship 10 questionnaire would have margins of error 11 associated with it? 12 A. Again, I have testified that I'm not 13 aware of the causal relationship that you're 14 talking about, so I'm not sure I ever have become 15 aware of that because I don't know what those 16 techniques are, I don't know how they relate to 17 the citizenship question, and I don't know how the 18 Census Bureau plans to deploy them and -- with 19 respect to the 2020 census. 20 Q. So you've -- and when I say "you," the 21 Department of Justice -- hasn't reached out to the 22 Census Bureau to try to understand the causal Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 228 1 relationship, as you put it, between disclosure 2 avoidance and margins of error associated with 3 CVAP data collected from the 2020 census 4 questionnaire, correct? 5 6 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Lack of foundation. 7 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of what 8 everyone in the Department of Justice may or may 9 not have done. 10 11 BY MR. HO: Q. You're not aware of any such 12 communications between the Department of Justice 13 and the Census Bureau about whether or not, due to 14 disclosure avoidance techniques, the CVAP data 15 produced from responses to the decennial census 16 questionnaire, would, in fact, have smaller 17 margins of error than the CVAP data currently 18 relied on by the Department of Justice, correct? 19 20 21 22 A. I don't believe I'm aware of any such communication. Q. Okay. The Gary letter, when it describes decennial census data as a full count of a Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 229 1 population, it doesn't mention the fact that 2 citizenship data based on responses to the 3 decennial census questionnaire would also have 4 margins of error associated with it, correct? 5 6 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Asked and THE WITNESS: And again, I think your answered. 7 8 question assumes that there are going to be these 9 margins of error tied to these disclosure masking 10 techniques, and I'm not sure whether that -- 11 whether or not that's correct. 12 way or the other. 13 BY MR. HO: 14 Q. I don't know one The Gary letter doesn't mention the fact 15 that CVAP data derived from the decennial census 16 would have margins of error due to disclosure 17 avoidance techniques that might even be larger 18 than the margins of error currently associated 19 with ACS CVAP data relied on by the Department of 20 Justice at present, correct? 21 22 A. Again, I don't -- I'm not sure I'm following all the chains of that hypothetical, and Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 230 1 I don't know one way or the other. 2 Q. If the Census Bureau could produce full 3 count CVAP data at the block level without margins 4 of error and without including a citizenship 5 question on the census, would that alleviate the 6 concerns expressed in this bullet? 7 8 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Hypothetical. Also, objection, compound. 9 THE WITNESS: And we're so far removed 10 from the Gary letter at this point, I don't know 11 which bullet you're referring to. 12 BY MR. HO: 13 Q. I'm referring to the third bullet, the 14 same one we've been talking about this entire 15 time. 16 17 18 A. You just put another exhibit in front of me, so -Q. It's on page 3, the second bullet on that 19 page about the ACS estimates being reported at a 20 90 percent confidence interval, and the letter 21 which contrasts that to decennial census data, 22 which is a full count of the population. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 231 1 A. I understand that the Census Bureau -- 2 Q. I haven't posed a question yet. 3 A. Oh, I'm sorry. 4 I thought you posed a question and then pointed me back to it. 5 Q. So here's my question with respect to 6 this bullet. 7 to you full count CVAP data that didn't have 8 sampling margins of error like the ACS CVAP data 9 but -- and could do so without including a If the Census Bureau could produce 10 citizenship question on the census, that would 11 resolve the concerns expressed in this bullet, 12 correct? 13 14 MR. GARDNER: THE WITNESS: 16 can't answer that. 17 BY MR. HO: 19 20 21 22 Calls for hypothetical. 15 18 Objection. Q. That's hypothetical. I You don't know one way or the other? MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for hypothetical. THE WITNESS: It's a hypothetical. can't answer a hypothetical. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 I 601 Page 232 1 BY MR. HO: 2 Q. The fourth bullet here -- 3 A. Before moving on to a new bullet, can we 4 take a break for lunch? 5 6 MR. GARDNER: Yeah. It's 12:55. been going over an hour now. 7 MR. HO: 8 THE WITNESS: 9 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 10 unit number 3. 11 12:55 p.m. Okay. Sure. Thank you. This concludes media The time on the video is We are off the record. 12 (A recess was taken.) 13 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 14 number 4. 15 are on the record. 16 BY MR. HO: 17 18 We've Q. This begins media unit The time on the video is 2:05 p.m. We Mr. Gore, before the break do you remember talking about margins of error? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you remember how we talked about how, 21 when data has smaller margins of error, we'd -- 22 you and I agree that that data would be more Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 233 1 precise than data that has larger margins of 2 error, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Today, do you believe that CVAP data 5 produced from responses to a question about 6 citizenship on the census questionnaire will be 7 more precise than the data that the Department of 8 Justice is currently relying on with respect to 9 CVAP for purposes of VRA enforcement purposes? 10 A. I'm not sure I have a view on that one 11 way or the other, since I don't know what the 12 margin of error is that the Census Bureau will 13 assign to census responses and, particularly, the 14 citizenship question should it be asked on the 15 2020 census. 16 Q. So just to clarify, right now you don't 17 know whether or not CVAP data produced from 18 responses to the citizenship question on the 19 census questionnaire will, in fact, be more 20 precise than the CVAP data on which DOJ is 21 currently relying for purposes of VRA enforcement? 22 A. I believe that's correct. I don't know Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 234 1 what the margin of error is that will be assigned 2 to that, to that data. 3 Q. I want to turn back to the Gary letter. 4 And the last bullet, which is the fourth bullet 5 overall, it's the third bullet on page 3 of the 6 letter, it reads, "Census data is reported to the 7 census block level, while the smallest unit 8 reported in the ACS estimates is the census block 9 group. See American Community Survey data 3, 5, 10 10. Accordingly, redistricting jurisdictions and 11 the department are required to perform further 12 estimates and to interject further uncertainty in 13 order to approximate citizen voting age population 14 at the level of a census block, which is the 15 fundamental building block of a redistricting 16 plan. 17 citizenship data available in one data set at the 18 census block level would greatly assist the 19 redistricting process." Having all of the relevant population 20 Did I read that correctly? 21 A. Yes, you did. 22 Q. Okay. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 235 1 point that's being expressed in this bullet is 2 that citizenship data from the ACS is not ideal 3 for purposes of VRA enforcement because ACS 4 citizenship data is published at the block group 5 level and DOJ is required to perform further 6 estimates to generate CVAP data at the census 7 block level, correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. Historically, CVAP data broken down by 10 race and ethnicity derived from the census long 11 form was not published at the census block level, 12 correct? 13 A. I don't know the answer to that. 14 Q. You're not aware of any time previously 15 where DOJ has had at its disposal CVAP data broken 16 down by race and ethnicity at the census block 17 level, correct? 18 A. I am not aware of that. 19 Q. You're not aware of any time previously 20 where DOJ did not have to use an estimated -- an 21 estimation procedure in order to convert CVAP data 22 from the Census Bureau from one geographical level Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 236 1 into block level data broken down by race or 2 ethnicity, correct? 3 4 5 A. As I understand your question, that's correct. Q. The Gary letter doesn't mention the fact 6 that, for purposes of VRA enforcement, DOJ has 7 always had to use an estimated -- an estimation 8 procedure in order to convert CVAP data from the 9 Census Bureau at one geographic level into CVAP 10 data by race and ethnicity at the block level, 11 correct? 12 A. I've just testified that I don't know 13 whether that's a fact or not. 14 mention of that issue in the Gary letter. 15 Q. But there's no You've never assessed the statistical 16 reliability of estimation techniques for deriving 17 block level CVAP data from block group level CVAP 18 data, correct? 19 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I have, no. 21 22 Form. BY MR. HO: Q. You're not aware of any case that was Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 237 1 filed by DOJ where DOJ was unable to succeed on a 2 VRA claim because of the fact that DOJ performed 3 an estimation procedure to derive census block 4 level CVAP data correct? 5 A. I'm not aware of any such filed case. 6 Q. You're not aware of any case where any 7 plaintiff was unable to succeed on a VRA claim 8 because of the fact that the plaintiff had to 9 perform an estimation procedure to derive 10 11 block-level CVAP data, correct? A. I'm not aware of any such filed case, and 12 I understand your question to be limited to filed 13 cases. 14 Q. You're not aware of any situation where a 15 plaintiff did not bring a case because of the fact 16 that the plaintiff would have to perform an 17 estimation procedure in order to generate CVAP 18 data at the census block level, correct? 19 MR. GARDNER: Objection to the extent 20 that you're calling for information subject to the 21 law enforcement privilege. 22 asking for that information, I would instruct the To the extent you are Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 238 1 witness not to answer. 2 To the extent you can answer that 3 question without divulging law 4 enforcement-sensitive information, you may do so. 5 THE WITNESS: I am not aware of any 6 public, nonprivileged information to indicate the 7 existence of any such case. 8 BY MR. HO: 601 9 Q. If the Census Bureau could produce CVAP 10 data at the block level for the Department of 11 Justice instead of at a different level of 12 geography, and could do so without including a 13 citizenship question on the census, would that 14 alleviate the concern that's expressed in this 15 bullet point? 16 17 18 19 20 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for a hypothetical. THE WITNESS: It's a hypothetical I can't engage in. MR. HO: You're not instructing -- Josh, 21 you're not instructing him not to answer the 22 question, right? You're just lodging an Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 239 1 objection. 2 3 MR. GARDNER: Correct. BY MR. HO: 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. I have answered the question. 6 So you can answer the question. I can't engage in a hypothetical. 7 Q. You -- you can't or you won't engage -- 8 A. I'm not going to engage in a 9 10 hypothetical. Q. Okay. So you don't know one way or the 11 other if DOJ -- if Census Bureau came to you and 12 said, look, we have this way of giving you CVAP 13 data at the block level, we can do it without 14 putting a question on the 2020 census 15 questionnaire about citizenship -- you don't know 16 one way or the other whether or not that would 17 alleviate the concern in this bullet? 18 19 20 21 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for a hypothetical. THE WITNESS: testimony. And mischaracterizes my I won't engage in a hypothetical. 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 240 1 2 3 4 5 6 BY MR. HO: Q. You're just refusing to answer the question, correct? A. I'm telling you my answer is I won't engage in a hypothetical. Q. Okay. Aside from the four bullets 7 expressed in this letter, are there any other 8 reasons why ACS CVAP data are not the ideal data 9 for purposes of VRA enforcement of which you are 10 aware? 11 A. Not that I'm aware of. 12 Q. Okay. 13 I'm going to show you a document. We'll mark this as 20. 14 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 20 marked for 15 identification and attached to the 16 transcript.) 17 18 BY MR. HO: Q. This is a printout from the Department of 19 Justice website listing cases brought by the 20 voting section. 21 left-hand corner of the first page. 22 page, the cases -- under the first header, Cases The URL for this is on the bottom The first Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 241 1 raising claims under Section 2 of the Voting 2 Rights Act, lists cases brought by the voting 3 section at the Department of Justice dating back 4 to the year 1988 under Section 2 of the Voting 5 Rights Act. 6 Do you see that? 7 A. I do. 8 Q. Now, as far as you know, none of the 9 10 cases on this list failed due to reliance on ACS CVAP data, correct? 11 12 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Lack of foundation. 13 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge. 14 of these cases predate the ACS. 15 post-date the ACS, I'm not aware of any case 16 failing on that basis. 17 BY MR. HO: 18 Q. Many Those that The cases that predate the ACS, you're 19 not aware of any of those cases failing because 20 they were -- they relied on long-form CVAP data, 21 correct? 22 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. Lack of Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 242 1 foundation. 2 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of any such 3 case. 4 not redistricting cases, and so would not have 5 implicated that issue. 6 BY MR. HO: 7 I will note that some of these cases are Q. Okay. The issue of CVAP, your testimony 8 is it's only relevant in Section 2 redistricting 9 cases, but not other kinds of Section 2 cases? 10 A. There may be other kinds of Section 2 11 cases where it's also relevant, but I believe that 12 at least a couple of these cases were cases where 13 it would not have been relevant. 14 Q. You're not aware of any of these cases 15 failing because of the quality of CVAP data 16 available to the Department of Justice, correct? 17 18 MR. GARDNER: 21 22 Lack of foundation. 19 20 Objection. THE WITNESS: I am not aware. BY MR. HO: Q. You mentioned earlier a case, the Benavidez case. Do you remember that? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601 Page 243 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. It's a case from the Northern District of 3 Texas, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. It's not a circuit court case, right? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. Okay. That's the only case in which you 8 are aware that the plaintiff's claim failed in 9 part due to reliance on ACS data, correct? 10 A. No, I don't think that's correct. I 11 think it's the only case of which I'm aware where 12 the plaintiff's case failed in part because of 13 reliance on ACS CVAP data. 14 another case out there where plaintiff may have 15 tried to use ACS total population data, and that 16 was not upheld by the court. 17 Q. Okay. I believe there's That case that you're referring 18 to, that doesn't really have any bearing on the 19 issue of the quality of citizenship data from the 20 ACS, right? 21 22 A. That's correct. I'm just trying to be responsive to your question. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 244 1 Q. No, I appreciate that. 2 So just so that the record is clear, the 3 Benavidez case is the only case that you're aware 4 of where the plaintiff's claim failed in part due 5 to reliance on ACS CVAP data, correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. And just to be clear, the Benavidez case 8 was not brought by the Department of Justice, 9 correct? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. Now, your understanding is that the 12 plaintiffs in the Benavidez case relied on 13 one-year ACS estimates, correct? 14 15 16 A. That's my recollection from the case. Q. And your recollection is that the Yes. 17 plaintiffs in the Benavidez litigation did not 18 rely on five-year ACS estimates, correct? 19 A. That is my recollection. Correct. 20 Q. And your recollection is that, in the 21 Benavidez case, the court found that the one-year 22 ACS data that the plaintiffs were relying upon was Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 245 1 not sufficiently reliable for the geographic areas 2 at issue in that case, correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Okay. We established earlier that your 5 understanding is that the Census Bureau publishes 6 the five-year ACS estimates as reliable for any 7 geographic area regardless of population size, 8 correct? 9 A. I believe you showed me a page on the 10 website that says that. 11 Census Bureau means by that or what purposes it 12 intends the ACS data to be used for. 13 the statement that you showed me earlier. 14 Q. I don't know what the But that is And the plaintiffs in the Benavidez case 15 didn't rely on those five-year ACS estimates, 16 correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And you -- 19 A. That's my recollection. 20 Q. And you're not aware of a single case in 21 which a plaintiff's VRA claim failed due to 22 reliance on five-year ACS estimates, correct? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 246 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. You described the Benavidez case in your 3 I'm not aware of any such case. testimony to Congress, correct? 4 A. I believe I mentioned it. Yes. 5 Q. At the time you testified in Congress, 6 you were aware that the plaintiffs in the 7 Benavidez case relied on one-year rather than 8 five-year ACS data, correct? 9 A. I believe that's correct. 10 Q. Okay. In your testimony in Congress, you 11 didn't mention the fact that although the Census 12 Bureau considers one-year ACS estimates to be 13 reliable only for areas that are -- have 65,000 14 people or more, it considers five-year ACS 15 estimates to be reliable for any geographic area, 16 correct? 17 18 19 A. I don't recollect the specifics of my testimony on that point. Q. You don't recall making clear to Congress 20 that there are five-year ACS estimates, as 21 distinct from the one-year ACS estimates relied on 22 by the plaintiffs in Benavidez, that are Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 247 1 considered by the Census Bureau to be reliable for 2 any geographic area, correct? 3 4 5 A. I do not recall every word that I said in my testimony to Congress. Q. That wasn't my question. My question 6 was, you don't recall mentioning the five-year ACS 7 estimates during your testimony in Congress, 8 correct? 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 A. I don't recall mentioning it or not mentioning it. Q. In fact, you didn't mention the five-year ACS estimates during your testimony, correct? A. I answered that question. I don't recall whether I did or I didn't. Q. And you didn't mention that the Census 16 Bureau publishes ACS estimates that it considers 17 reliable for any geographic area during your 18 testimony in Congress, correct? 19 A. I don't recall whether I did or I didn't. 20 And as I said before, I don't know what the Census 21 Bureau means by that or the uses to which it 22 intends the ACS can be put. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 248 1 Q. Can you think of any reason why you 2 wouldn't mention the fact that the -- that there 3 are five-year ACS estimates during your 4 congressional testimony? 5 A. I was not asked -- I don't believe I was 6 asked the intervals of estimates that are 7 available through the ACS. 8 different question, as I recall my testimony. 9 if you point me to where my testimony is in the 10 transcript, I'd be happy to discuss it further. 11 Q. I was responding to a But Can you think of any reason why you 12 wouldn't mention the fact that the Census Bureau 13 produces estimates that have greater reliability 14 at smaller geographic areas than the one-year ACS 15 estimates that you did discuss during your 16 congressional testimony? 17 A. Again, I'm happy to comment on my 18 testimony if you want to point me to a specific 19 page of it, and I can try to reconstruct why I did 20 or did not give a particular piece of information. 21 It may not have been responsive or relevant to the 22 question. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 249 1 Q. You don't think Congress would have 2 wanted to know that there are ACS estimates that 3 are more reliable than the one-year ACS estimates 4 that the plaintiffs relied on in the Benavidez 5 case? 6 7 MR. GARDNER: 10 11 12 Calls for speculation. 8 9 Objection. THE WITNESS: These days, I have no idea what Congress wants. BY MR. HO: Q. Going back to the list of cases that's in front of you -- 13 A. Exhibit 20? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. None of these cases have been filed since 17 you were acting assistant attorney general for 18 civil rights, correct? 19 20 I meant just the Section 2 cases on the first page, sorry. 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. In fact, none of the Section 2 cases Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 250 1 listed on the first page have been filed since the 2 start of the Trump administration, correct? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. Okay. The previous administration -- for 5 part of its time, the previous administration, in 6 addition to having responsibilities under 7 Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act, also had 8 obligations under Section 5 of the Voting Rights 9 Act, correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. The current administration does not have 12 obligations under Section 5 of the Voting Rights 13 Act to the same extent, correct? 14 MR. GARDNER: Objection to form. 15 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 16 17 BY MR. HO: Q. What obligations, if any, does the 18 current administration have with respect to 19 Section 5 enforcement? 20 A. That is a fair question. There are a 21 couple of jurisdictions that are covered under 22 Section 3(c) of the Voting Rights Act, which is Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 251 1 similar to Section 5. 2 obligations with respect to Section 5 at this 3 point due to the Supreme Court's decision in 4 Shelby County, which was a 2013 decision, so it 5 was about in the middle of the prior 6 administration's tenure. 7 Q. Okay. We may, in fact, have no If you look at the previous 8 administration, 2009 through the beginning of 9 2017, it looks like the Department of Justice 10 filed five Section 2 cases during that period. 11 A. I believe that's correct. 12 Q. Okay. So previous administration had 13 Section 5 obligations to review voting changes in 14 all or part of 16 states for part of that time, 15 correct? 16 17 18 A. I believe until the Shelby County decision in 2013. Q. Okay. And the current administration 19 doesn't have those obligations and hasn't filed 20 any Section 2 cases? 21 22 A. That's correct. We also haven't had a decennial census which has required every state in Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 252 1 the union to redistrict during the time of this 2 administration, which the prior administration did 3 in the 2010 census. 4 Q. You would say that it is not unusual for 5 the Department of Justice to go several years 6 without filing a Section 2 case, right? 7 A. While I review this list, I think 8 that's -- that may or may not be correct. But 9 there have certainly been years and multiyear 10 periods where the Department of Justice has not 11 filed Section 2 cases. 12 Q. You're not saying that reliance on ACS 13 CVAP data is the reason why the Department of 14 Justice has failed to file a Section 2 case since 15 the start of the Trump administration, right? 16 A. Again, I didn't think we were going to 17 talk about cases that hadn't been filed. 18 believe that's covered by law enforcement 19 privilege and I can't talk about why or why not -- 20 why certain cases were or were not filed. 21 22 Q. And I Well, your counsel didn't object to my question. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 253 1 So my question was, you're not testifying 2 that the Department of Justice has failed to file 3 a Section 2 case since the start of the Trump 4 administration because of the quality of CVAP 5 data, correct? 6 MR. GARDNER: I actually understood you 7 to be asking a different question the first time 8 you asked it. 9 that time does implicate the law enforcement I think the way you've asked it 10 privilege. 11 answer to the extent that it would require the 12 divulging of information subject to the privilege. 13 And I will instruct the witness not to MR. HO: Let me just read the question 14 that I asked the first time. 15 BY MR. HO: 16 Q. You're not saying that reliance on ACS 17 CVAP data is the reason why the Trump 18 administration has failed to file a Section 2 19 Voting Rights Act case, correct? 20 MR. GARDNER: And to the extent that you 21 can answer that question without divulging law 22 enforcement-sensitive information, you may do so. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 254 1 Otherwise, I instruct you not to answer. 2 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 3 instruction, I can't answer. 4 BY MR. HO: 5 Q. Okay. You're not saying that if you had 6 different CVAP data at your disposal, you would 7 have filed some additional Section 2 cases, right? 8 9 MR. GARDNER: Same instruction. 10 11 Same objection. THE WITNESS: Consistent with that instruction, I can't answer. 12 MR. HO: 13 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 21 marked for 14 identification and attached to the 15 transcript.) 16 17 We'll mark this as Exhibit 21. BY MR. HO: Q. It's an e-mail exchange between you, 18 Arthur Gary, and others. 19 thread is from you to Arthur Gary dated 20 January 29th, 2018. 21 number DOJ 00002712. 22 The top e-mail on the The first page bears Bates I want to go through the individual Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 802 Page 255 1 e-mails on here. 2 3 802 Okay? So the top e-mail, this is Arthur Gary e-mailing you, correct? 4 A. I don't believe so, actually. 5 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. 6 The top is you e-mailing Arthur Gary, correct? 7 A. Appears to be, yes. 8 Q. Okay. And the second e-mail, the second 9 to most recent one on the first page here, Arthur 10 Gary is forwarding to you an e-mail chain between 11 him and Ron Jarmin, the acting director of the 12 Census Bureau, correct? 13 A. That appears to be correct. 14 Q. Okay. I want to look at the first e-mail 15 in time on this chain. 16 page 5, Bates number DOJ 2716. 17 It's on the last page, This is an e-mail from Ron Jarmin to 18 Arthur Gary, cc'ing Enrique Lamas of the Census 19 Bureau. 20 right? And it has the date December 22nd, 2017, 21 A. Yes, that's correct. 22 Q. Okay. The e-mail from Acting Director Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 802 Page 256 1 Jarmin to Mr. Gary reads, "Arthur, thank you for 2 your letter dated 12/12/2017 regarding improving 3 the quality of citizenship information for DOJ 4 enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. 5 start by saying the bureau is fully supportive of 6 providing DOJ with the highest quality statistical 7 information possible. 8 staff to review all possible ways to address the 9 needs expressed in the letter. Let me To that end, I directed They have now 10 briefed me, and their findings suggest that the 11 best way to provide PL94 block-level data with 12 citizen voting population by race and ethnicity 13 would be through utilizing a linked file of 14 administrative and survey data the Census Bureau 15 already possesses. 16 quality data produced at lower cost. 17 schedule a meeting of census and DOJ technical 18 experts to discuss the details of this proposal. 19 We look forward to working with you on this 20 important statistical matter." 21 22 This would result in higher I suggest we From this e-mail, do you understand that the Census Bureau director, or acting director, is Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 257 1 expressing the view that the best way to provide 2 block-level CVAP data for purposes of VRA 3 enforcement is not to add a citizenship question 4 to the census? 5 A. No, that's not what I understand. 6 Q. What do you understand the Census Bureau 7 8 9 director to be saying? A. I believe he is saying that he's had staff review the question, and the staff had 10 briefed him, and their findings suggest that the 11 best way to provide that data would be through the 12 linked file of administrative and survey data. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. And then requesting to set up a meeting 15 16 about that issue. Q. Okay. So just to clarify, your 17 understanding is that, in this e-mail, the acting 18 director of the Census Bureau is expressing -- is 19 stating that Census Bureau staff have briefed him 20 and sug -- and -- on their findings which suggest 21 that the best way to provide block-level CVAP data 22 is not to add a citizenship question to the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 258 1 decennial census questionnaire, correct? 2 A. I think that's right. This e-mail speaks 3 for itself, and obviously I didn't write it and it 4 wasn't addressed to me. 5 Q. Your understanding is that the Census 6 Bureau director is -- or acting Census Bureau 7 director is stating that Census Bureau staff have 8 conducted an analysis and briefed him on their 9 findings which suggest that the best way to 10 provide block-level CVAP data for DOJ's needs is 11 through a linked file of administrative and survey 12 data that the Census Bureau already possesses, 13 correct? 14 15 16 A. says. That's my understanding of what this Yeah. Q. And your understanding is that the Census 17 Bureau director is -- acting Census Bureau 18 director is writing and stating that his staff -- 19 that Census Bureau staff have analyzed this issue 20 and briefed him on their findings that the linked 21 file of administrative and survey data would 22 result in higher quality data produced at lower Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 259 1 cost than including a citizenship question on the 2 census questionnaire, correct? 3 4 5 A. I understand that he is communicating that the findings of the staff suggest that. Q. Okay. Yes. No meeting between the technical 6 experts at DOJ and the Census Bureau took place 7 between the date of the December 12th Gary letter 8 requesting a citizenship question and the Ross 9 decision memo in March of 2018 directing the 10 inclusion of a citizenship question, correct? 11 A. I am not aware of any such meeting. 12 Q. You're not aware of any such meeting of 13 technical staff in the civil rights division, 14 which you are the head of, and the Census Bureau's 15 technical staff to discuss this proposal -- or 16 these findings, rather, about a different way of 17 generating block-level CVAP data referenced in 18 this e-mail, correct? 19 A. I am not aware of any such meeting. 20 Q. The next e-mail on this chain is on 21 December 22nd, 2017. It's on page 4. Arthur Gary 22 writes to Dr. Jarmin, "Dr. Jarmin, thank you for Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 260 1 your response. 2 you and your team in early January. 3 regards." 4 We look forward to meeting with Best Did I read that right? 5 A. Looks right, yeah. 6 Q. Okay. 802 On page 3, page DOJ 2714, on 7 January 2nd, Arthur Gary writes to Ron Jarmin, "It 8 should work fine. 9 wishes to you for 2018 as well." 10 Let me get back to you. Best I read that correctly, right? 11 A. Yes, you did. 12 Q. That's in response to a meeting -- an 13 e-mail on the following page which is from Ron 14 Jarmin to Arthur Gary which reads, "Arthur, happy 15 new year. Would the late next week work for a 16 meeting?" Right? 17 A. Appears -- that appears correct. 18 Q. Okay. So at this point, it looked like 19 Mr. Gary was planning on having a meeting or 20 suggested that a meeting the following week with 21 the Census Bureau would work fine, correct? 22 A. Again, these e-mails speak for Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 261 1 themselves. 2 that seems about right. 3 Q. And I can't speak for Mr. Gary. Okay. But One week later -- I'm on page 3 -- 4 Ron Jarmin writes to Arthur Gary on January 9th, 5 2018, "Gary, any updates? 6 clock to resolve the request. 7 meet with your team as soon as possible. 8 We have a pretty short Would be good to Thanks." Do you see that? 9 A. I do. 10 Q. Okay. In the next e-mail, also on 11 January 9th, 2018, Arthur Gary writes back to Ron 12 Jarmin and suggests a number of times, including 13 Friday, January 19th, at 11:00 a.m., correct? 14 A. I'm sorry, which page are you on? 15 Q. Page 2. 16 A. I don't see any e-mail from January 13th. 17 Q. January 9th, 2018. 18 A. Okay. 19 Which e-mail are we talking about? I'm sorry. 20 Q. From Arthur Gary to Ron Jarmin -- 21 A. At the bottom of the page? 22 Q. At the bottom of the page. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 262 1 A. Okay. 2 Q. Mr. Gary writes back to Ron Jarmin and 3 offers a number of options for a meeting, 4 including Friday, January 19th, at 11:00 a.m., 5 right? 6 A. That appears to be correct. 7 Q. And in the next e-mail on the thread, 8 Dr. Jarmin writes to Arthur Gary on January 10th, 9 "Thanks, Gary. 10 Let's do Friday at 11:00. fine meeting at main Justice." We're Right? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. The next e-mail, which is on the first 13 page at the bottom, on January 16th, 2018, Arthur 14 Gary writes to cancel the meeting with Ron Jarmin, 15 correct? 16 A. Well, it looks like -- he says 17 they're unable -- "We" -- I don't know who "we" 18 are -- "will be able to meet on Friday or this 19 week." 20 Q. 802 Did you have any conversations with 21 Mr. Gary about meeting with the Census Bureau 22 between the date of Dr. Jarmin's e-mail on Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 802 Page 263 1 December 22nd requesting a meeting between Census 2 Bureau and DOJ staff and Arthur Gary's e-mail on 3 January 16th stating, due to some scheduling 4 conflicts, we will be unable to meet on Friday? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. When did those conversations take place? 7 A. I don't remember the specific dates. 8 Q. What was the content of that 9 10 conversation? A. I believe the content of that 11 conversation related to this request that the 12 Census Bureau and the Department of Justice hold a 13 meeting. 14 Q. And what did Mr. Gary convey to you about 15 the Census Bureau's request to have a meeting 16 between DOJ and Census Bureau technical staff? 17 18 19 A. He conveyed to me that the request had been made. Q. What did he -- did he convey to you 20 anything other than the fact that a request had 21 been made? 22 A. I believe he mentioned that they had Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 802 Page 264 1 offered certain dates for that meeting, but 2 that -- I don't recall the specifics of that 3 conversation beyond that. 4 Q. Did Mr. Gary tell you that, in 5 Dr. Jarmin's e-mail, he had written that Census 6 Bureau staff had briefed him on their analysis 7 which suggested that there was a way to produce 8 higher quality CVAP data at lower cost for the 9 Department of Justice through a means other than 10 including a question about citizenship on the 11 2020 census questionnaire? 12 A. I don't believe he conveyed that. I 13 believe what he conveyed was that the Census 14 Bureau thought there might be another way to get 15 the data to the Department of Justice. 16 17 18 Q. And what was your response to receiving that information? A. I listened to what Mr. Gary had to say 19 and told him that I would think about the issue 20 and discuss it further with others. 21 22 Q. Did you instruct Mr. Gary not to hold the meeting with the Census Bureau that was scheduled Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 802 Page 265 1 for Friday, January 19th? 2 A. I don't believe so, no. 3 Q. Do you know why that meeting did not 4 occur? 5 A. I believe that -- I believe at the time 6 we were trying to gather more information within 7 the department about this meeting and whether it 8 was consistent with our -- with what we wanted to 9 do. And I believe that -- if I recall correctly, 10 this was a request for more time from the Census 11 Bureau that Mr. Gary submitted. 12 Q. What, if anything, did you do with the 13 information that the Census Bureau had an 14 alternative means for providing DOJ with 15 block-level CVAP data? 16 17 A. I discussed that with various people at the Department of Justice. 18 Q. And who did you discuss that with? 19 A. I discussed it with Rachael Tucker, Pat 20 Hovakimian. I may have discussed it with Danielle 21 Cutrona. 22 discussed it with the attorney general. I'm not sure. And I eventually Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 266 1 Q. You didn't discuss the fact that the 2 Census Bureau had an alternative idea for 3 producing block-level CVAP data for purposes of 4 VRA enforcement with voting section employees? 5 A. I may have discussed it -- I think I 6 probably did discuss it with Chris Herren as well. 7 I may have discussed it with him. 8 specifically. 9 Q. I don't recall You mentioned that you discussed it with 10 the attorney general. 11 fact that the Census Bureau had an alternative 12 means of producing block-level CVAP data with the 13 attorney general? 14 A. When did you discuss the It would have been at some point after I 15 spoke to Art Gary. 16 date. I don't remember the exact 17 Q. Roughly when did you speak to Art Gary? 18 A. Again, I don't remember the exact date of 19 that either. 20 January 16th e-mail. 21 22 Q. It would have been before this So sometime after this conversation -- so let me just back up here. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 267 1 A. Right. 2 Q. You had a conversation with Arthur Gary 3 sometime before the January 16th e-mail about -- 4 that -- and you discussed during that -- let me 5 start this again. 6 A. Okay. 7 Q. You had a conversation with Arthur Gary 8 sometime before the January 16th e-mail. 9 A. Right. 10 Q. And during that conversation you 11 discussed the fact that the Census Bureau had an 12 alternative idea for producing block-level CVAP 13 data, correct? 14 A. Not in so many words. As I said before, 15 I think what Art Gary told me is that he had heard 16 from the Census Bureau and they had an idea for an 17 alternate way to produce the data and wanted to 18 meet about it. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. And that was about the extent of my 21 understanding of it at the time. And that's what 22 I would have conveyed to other people. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 268 1 Q. And at some point after that, you had a 2 conversation about this proposal with the attorney 3 general, correct? 4 A. I don't know if it was so much about the 5 proposal, because I wasn't up on what the 6 specifics of the proposal were. 7 a -- we may have had a conversation related to 8 this issue of Census Bureau wanting to meet. 9 10 Q. I think we had You didn't ask Arthur Gary for the specifics of the proposal from the Census Bureau? 11 A. No, I don't believe I did. 12 Q. You didn't ask Arthur Gary to get more 13 information about the specifics of the proposal 14 from the Census Bureau to get higher quality CVAP 15 data at lower cost? 16 A. I don't recall asking him that and I 17 don't recall him conveying that to me that that 18 was a representation that the Census Bureau had 19 made. 20 Q. Okay. You at some point had a 21 conversation with the Attorney General about this. 22 Was that in person or by phone? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 269 1 A. In person. 2 Q. And it was in January of 2018? 3 A. Probably. 4 Q. What was discussed with respect to the Yeah. 5 Census Bureau's alternative proposal for producing 6 block-level CVAP data? 7 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for 8 information that's subject to deliberative process 9 privilege. 10 I instruct the witness not to answer. MR. HO: Can I just ask you what decision 11 this deliberation went to, given that the 12 department had already at this point -- 13 MR. GARDNER: 14 MR. HO: 15 MR. GARDNER: Sure. -- made the request? It's embedded in your 16 actual question about the consideration of 17 alternatives. 18 Remember, the deliberative process 19 privilege can apply even if no final decision is 20 made. 21 22 MR. HO: So this is not about the decision to request the citizenship question. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 270 1 This is a separate deliberation -- 2 MR. GARDNER: 3 MR. HO: 4 MR. GARDNER: Of course. -- about what, Josh? About the alternatives that 5 you just discussed with Mr. Gore that Mr. Gary 6 raised. 7 8 MR. HO: alternatives? 9 Well, what about the What's the decision -- MR. GARDNER: I'm not here to testify for 10 you. 11 questions about a proposal made by the Census 12 Bureau that Art Gary communicated to John Gore, 13 John Gore then discussed with the attorney 14 general, and you are now asking about these 15 substantive deliberative conversations about that 16 proposal. 17 18 I am telling you -- you just asked him MR. HO: I guess -- the proposal is a topic. 19 MR. GARDNER: 20 MR. HO: 21 MR. GARDNER: 22 MR. HO: Yeah. And I -- What's the -And I allowed him to -- What's the decision, I guess, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 271 1 that -- 2 MR. GARDNER: 3 pursue that proposal. 4 MR. HO: Okay. 5 to clarify because -- 6 MR. GARDNER: 7 MR. HO: 8 MR. GARDNER: 9 10 11 clear. Decision as to whether to That's what I just wanted Yeah. Okay. -- it wasn't clear to me. I apologize. Sorry. I thought that was Yeah, that's the decision. BY MR. HO: Q. Okay. So the conversation with the 12 attorney general included a discussion about 13 whether or not to pursue the Census Bureau's 14 proposal to produce block-level CVAP data for DOJ 15 for VRA enforcement purposes without including a 16 citizenship question, correct? 17 A. That is correct. And just to clarify, I 18 wasn't familiar with all the particulars of their 19 proposal. 20 21 22 Q. That's fine. The decision was made not to pursue the Census Bureau's alternative proposal for producing Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 272 1 block-level CVAP data for purposes of VRA 2 enforcement through a means other than including a 3 citizenship question on the census, correct? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. Who made that decision? 6 A. The attorney general. 7 Q. When was that decision made? 8 A. Around this time. 9 10 when it was made. I can't remember the specific date. 11 12 I don't know exactly Q. When you say "around this time," you mean around January of 2018, correct? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. Are the reasons for that decision 15 memorialized anywhere? 16 A. Not to my knowledge. 17 Q. Were those reasons ever communicated to 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What were those reasons? 18 21 22 you? MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for information subject to deliberative process Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 273 1 privilege. 2 I instruct the witness not to answer. THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 3 instruction, I can't answer. 4 tenacity. 5 BY MR. HO: 6 Q. But I do admire your On the first page, the second e-mail 7 listed here is from Ron Jarmin to Art Gary on 8 January 26th, 2018 and reads, "Art, any chance of 9 meeting late next week? Thanks. Ron." 10 As of this date, it had not yet been 11 communicated to the Census Bureau that the -- 12 whether or not the Department of Justice would 13 meet to discuss the Census Bureau's other proposal 14 for producing block-level CVAP data, correct? 15 16 17 A. I'm not sure I know the answer to that question. Q. Who informed Art Gary of the decision not 18 to meet with the Census Bureau to discuss their 19 alternative proposal for producing block-level 20 CVAP data? 21 A. I did. 22 Q. When did you inform Mr. Gary of that Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 274 1 decision? 2 A. It would have been around this 3 January 29th date, I believe. 4 specifically. 5 Q. But I don't recall And who informed you that the Department 6 of Justice should not meet with the Census Bureau 7 to discuss the Census Bureau's alternative 8 proposal for producing block-level CVAP data? 9 A. The attorney general. 10 Q. You received this e-mail thread from 11 Arthur Gary, which includes the initial e-mail 12 from Dr. Jarmin describing the alternative 13 proposal for collecting CVAP data at higher 14 quality produced at lower cost on January 29th, 15 2018, correct? 16 A. On this e-mail chain, that's correct. 17 don't know whether I received it before then or 18 not. 19 January 29th, 2018, at 2:33 p.m., is the first 20 e-mail in this chain where Mr. Gary sent me that 21 information. 22 Q. I But yes, this e-mail -- the e-mail dated When you told Congress on May 21st, 2018, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 275 1 that the decennial census questionnaire is the 2 most appropriate vehicle for collecting CVAP data 3 for purposes of VRA enforcement, you didn't 4 mention the fact that the Census Bureau director 5 had written to the Department of Justice to state 6 that Census Bureau staff had conducted an analysis 7 suggesting that there was an alternative way of 8 producing CVAP data for VRA enforcement purposes 9 that would result in higher quality data at lower 10 11 cost, correct? A. Again, I don't have my testimony in front 12 of me. 13 that for you. 14 that I did or did not say to Congress that day. 15 Q. If you want me to read it, I can confirm I don't remember exactly everything You don't remember telling Congress -- 16 when you said that the decennial census 17 questionnaire was the best vehicle for collecting 18 CVAP data, you don't remember telling Congress 19 that the Census Bureau conducted an analysis 20 suggesting that there was a way of producing 21 higher quality data at lower cost, right? 22 A. I believe you said before I characterized Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 276 1 it as the most appropriate vehicle; now you've 2 said it's the best vehicle. 3 word or combination of words I used before 4 Congress. 5 particular proposal because, by the time of my 6 testimony on May 21st, that was not the position 7 of the Census Bureau and the Commerce Department. 8 Secretary Ross had already issued his memo of 9 decision at that point where he had taken a hard So I don't know which I don't recall mentioning this 10 look at the various alternatives and had concluded 11 that the alternative he had chosen was the most 12 appropriate vehicle for collecting that data. 13 Q. You understand that the Census Bureau is 14 a discrete entity within the Commerce Department, 15 right? 16 A. Sure. I understand that. Just like 17 there are discrete entities within the Department 18 of Justice. 19 are led by the person at the top of the 20 department, which in this case, for the Census 21 Bureau and the Commerce Department, is 22 Secretary Ross. But all of those entities ultimately Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 277 1 2 3 Q. Your understanding is that Secretary Ross speaks for the Census Bureau? A. Yes. On this -- at least on this issue. 4 I understand that -- and again, I've not studied 5 the legal questions in this case, but it's my 6 understanding that the Secretary of Commerce has 7 the authority to determine which questions will 8 and will not be asked on the census questionnaire. 9 Q. Do you have any reason to think that 10 Secretary Ross knows more about the accuracy of 11 various forms of CVAP data than the career 12 professionals at the Census Bureau? 13 14 MR. GARDNER: Lack of foundation. 15 THE WITNESS: 16 that question. 17 BY MR. HO: 18 Objection. Q. I have no basis to answer You don't know one way or the other 19 whether or not Secretary Ross knows more about the 20 accuracy of various forms of CVAP data than the 21 career professionals who work with statistical 22 research and survey data at the Census Bureau? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 601 Page 278 1 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't know one way or the 3 other, and I don't know what Census Bureau staff 4 ultimately concluded since the e-mail said there 5 were suggestions made by particular findings. 6 It's my understanding that Secretary Ross 7 has the legal right and the legal authority to 8 make that determination on behalf of the Commerce 9 Department and the Census Bureau under the 10 relevant statutes that Congress has enacted. 11 BY MR. HO: 12 Q. So let's leave aside legal right and 13 legal authority and let's just talk about the 14 Census Bureau and what Dr. Jarmin represented in 15 this e-mail. 16 Just here today, you know that Dr. Jarmin 17 wrote to Arthur Gary and said Census Bureau staff 18 have looked at this issue, and their analysis 19 suggests that there's a way to get CVAP data for 20 DOJ that would produce higher quality data at 21 lower cost, and wanted to meet with DOJ about 22 that. You understand that, right? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 279 1 2 A. Yes, I believe I've testified that I understand that. 3 Q. Okay. And when you told Congress that 4 the best vehicle -- or the most appropriate 5 vehicle for obtaining CVAP data was through the 6 decennial census questionnaire, you didn't mention 7 Dr. Jarmin's proposal, right? 8 9 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Asked and THE WITNESS: Again, I don't remember answered. 10 11 exactly everything that I testified to on May 12 21st. 13 answer your question and verify -- or give you the 14 verification or confirmation that you seem to be 15 asking me for. 16 I'm happy to read that testimony now and But no, I didn't mention this. I didn't 17 mention everything about the decision or the issue 18 in that testimony to Congress. 19 specific questions by congresspeople and gave 20 answers to the best of my ability and recollection 21 within the constraints that the Department of 22 Justice places on witnesses who testify before I was asked Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 280 1 Congress. 2 Moreover, all it says here is that there 3 were some career staff who made findings that 4 suggested a particular thing, not that they had 5 firmly reached that conclusion. 6 I mentioned before, it's up to Secretary Ross to 7 make that determination as a matter of law, or at 8 least that's my understanding. 9 BY MR. HO: 10 Q. And of course, as I mean, this isn't an e-mail from just a 11 random Census Bureau staffer. This is an e-mail 12 from the acting director of the Census Bureau, 13 correct? 14 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Argumentative. 15 THE WITNESS: I understand that 16 Dr. Jarmin was the acting director of the Census 17 Bureau, yes. 18 BY MR. HO: 19 20 Q. Bureau today, right? 21 22 He is the acting director of the Census A. That, I don't know. But sure, he could be. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 281 1 Q. Okay. Are you satisfied that your 2 testimony to Congress, which omitted Dr. Jarmin's 3 proposal to meet with the DOJ to discuss the 4 Census Bureau's findings that there was a way to 5 produce higher quality data at lower cost aside 6 from the census [sic] question -- are you 7 satisfied that that was complete testimony to 8 Congress? 9 A. Absolutely. I -- I testified completely 10 and honestly to Congress on the matters that I was 11 in a position to testify on. 12 13 Q. accurate CVAP data from the Census Bureau, right? 14 15 16 Your goal is to get the most complete and A. goal. That would be the Department of Justice's Yes. Q. And despite having that goal, you did 17 not -- and when I say "you," the Department of 18 Justice did not have a meeting of its technical 19 staff with the Census Bureau to discuss the Census 20 Bureau's proposal to get higher quality CVAP data 21 at lower cost, correct? 22 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Asked and Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 282 1 answered. 2 3 THE WITNESS: I believe that's correct. BY MR. HO: 4 Q. Are you aware of any other circumstance 5 where the Department of Justice asked the Census 6 Bureau to collect data but then refused to have a 7 technical meeting to discuss that data request? 8 9 10 A. I'm not aware of that, nor am I aware of any instance where the Census Bureau has offered that kind of meeting. 11 Q. All right. 12 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 22 marked for 13 identification and attached to the 14 transcript.) 15 BY MR. HO: 16 Q. This is marked as Exhibit 22. It's an 17 e-mail from Ron Jarmin to Census Bureau personnel 18 in the administrative record with Bates number 19 9074. 20 In this e-mail, Dr. Jarmin is forwarding 21 to Census Bureau personnel an e-mail that he had 22 previously written on February 6th, 2018, to Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 283 1 Enrique Lamas and, it appears, Karen Dunn Kelley. 2 Do you see that? 3 A. I do see that. 4 Q. Dr. Jarmin writes to Ms. Kelley, "Karen, 5 I spoke with Jarmin is Gary. 6 DOJ leadership. 7 requesting citizenship be added to the 2020 census 8 fully describes their request. 9 to meet. 10 He has spoken with They believe the letter They do not want Thanks, Ron." Did I read that right? 11 A. Yes, you did. 12 Q. You're part of the DOJ leadership to whom 13 Art -- Arthur Gary spoke about a possible meeting 14 between the Census Bureau and DOJ, correct? 15 16 MR. GARDNER: speculation. 17 Objection. Calls for Lack of foundation. THE WITNESS: I don't know who Jarmin is 18 Gary spoke to or who he was referring to. 19 testified previously, I did talk to him about this 20 issue. 21 BY MR. HO: 22 Q. As I Are you aware of anyone else speaking Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 284 1 with Arthur Gary about the decision over whether 2 or not to meet with Census Bureau personnel to 3 discuss their proposal to produce block-level CVAP 4 data without a citizenship question? 5 6 7 A. I have no awareness on that one way or the other. Q. Dr. Jarmin is correct that DOJ leadership 8 did not want to meet to discuss the technical 9 aspects of the citizenship question request, 10 correct? 11 A. I'm sorry, can you repeat that question? 12 Q. Dr. Jarmin was correct that DOJ 13 leadership did not want to have a technical 14 meeting to discuss DOJ's request for block-level 15 CVAP data, correct? 16 A. I believe that's correct. 17 Q. The reason you didn't want to have that 18 meeting is because it was more important to the 19 Department of Justice to get a citizenship 20 question on the 2020 census questionnaire than to 21 get accurate block-level CVAP data, correct? 22 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 285 1 information subject to deliberative process 2 privilege. 3 To the extent you can answer that 4 question without divulging privileged information, 5 you may do so. 6 answer. 7 Otherwise, I instruct you not to THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 8 instruction, the answer I can give is that 9 Secretary Ross determined in his memo of decision 10 that the best possible way to proceed is the way 11 that he approved. 12 and rejected an alternative that called for 13 comparing administrative records and other 14 information, survey data, already available to the 15 Census Bureau. 16 MR. HO: And he specifically considered Well, I know we haven't been 17 going for all that long, I just drank a little too 18 much coffee. 19 take a -- 20 I apologize, but I think I need to MR. GARDNER: You don't need to talk 21 about that on the record. 22 MR. HO: It's okay. I can talk about it more on the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 286 1 record. 2 MR. GARDNER: 3 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 4 unit number 4. 5 We are off the record. Whatever you wish. This concludes media The time on the video is 2:55 p.m. 6 (A recess was taken.) 7 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 8 number 5. 9 are on the record. 10 11 This begins media unit The time on the video is 3:16 p.m. We BY MR. HO: Q. Mr. Gore, as the head of the civil rights 12 division, you want the civil rights division to 13 have access to the most accurate CVAP data for 14 purposes of VRA enforcement, right? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. You would like it if technical staff from 17 the civil rights division could meet with the 18 Census Bureau to discuss what the Census Bureau 19 believes is the most accurate CVAP data for 20 purposes of VRA enforcement, right? 21 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Form. 22 THE WITNESS: Again, I think you're Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 287 1 asking me a hypothetical question. 2 understand the Census Bureau's position, including 3 from Secretary Ross' memo and Dr. Jarmin's own 4 testimony to Congress on May 8th, they believe 5 that the data that Secretary Ross has decided to 6 provide and described in his memo of decision is 7 the most appropriate data for responding to the 8 DOJ request. 9 BY MR. HO: 10 11 Q. And as I Wasn't my question. My question was, you would like it -- 12 given your desire for the Department of Justice to 13 have the most accurate CVAP data available, you 14 would like it if Department of Justice technical 15 staff could meet with the Census Bureau to learn 16 about the Census Bureau's views about the most 17 accurate CVAP data available, correct? 18 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Form. 19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think that's a 20 hypothetical question, and the Census Bureau has 21 made its view known to us through Secretary Ross' 22 memo of decision and the testimony it provided to Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 288 1 Congress on May 8th. 2 BY MR. HO: 3 Q. Well, before Secretary Ross' decision 4 memo -- that decision memo was in March of 2018, 5 correct? 6 A. Sounds right. 7 Q. Okay. So before Secretary Ross' memo, 8 you didn't know what the Census Bureau's views 9 were about the most accurate form of CVAP data, 10 correct? 11 A. That's probably correct. 12 Q. Okay. Yeah. So before March of 2018, as 13 someone who wants the Department of Justice to 14 have the most accurate CVAP data for VRA 15 enforcement, you wanted to be able to have a 16 meeting of DOJ technical staff with the Census 17 Bureau to learn about the Census Bureau's views 18 about the most accurate CVAP data, correct? 19 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Hypothetical. 20 THE WITNESS: That's a hypothetical. 21 MR. HO: It's not a hypothetical. 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 289 1 2 BY MR. HO: Q. There was a request from the Census 3 Bureau to meet with the Department of Justice 4 technical staff. 5 happen, right, Mr. Gore? 6 A. And you wanted that meeting to I think you're asking me about my 7 deliberative process with respect to whether the 8 Department of Justice would consider alternatives 9 suggested by the Census Bureau or somebody else. 10 Q. I'm not asking you about your process. 11 I'm just asking that, as the head of the civil 12 rights division and someone who wants the civil 13 rights division to have the most accurate CVAP 14 data possible, when the Census Bureau reached out 15 and said, let's have a meeting to talk about the 16 most accurate CVAP data, you wanted to have that 17 meeting, right? 18 MR. GARDNER: Yeah -- objection. That 19 does call for information subject to deliberative 20 process privilege. 21 22 To the extent you can answer that without divulging privileged information, you may do so. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 290 1 Otherwise, I instruct you not to answer. 2 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 3 instruction, I can't answer. 4 BY MR. HO: 5 Q. When was the decision made not to have a 6 meeting with Census Bureau technical staff about 7 their proposal to provide CVAP data at the block 8 level without a citizenship question? 9 A. I believe it was made the day that 10 Mr. Gary communicated that decision back to the 11 Census Bureau. 12 Q. Well, you testified earlier that the 13 decision not to hold that meeting was made by 14 Attorney General Sessions, right? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. When did Attorney General Sessions make 17 the decision not to have that meeting? 18 A. I don't know when he made that decision. 19 Q. Did he make that decision during your 20 meeting with him? 21 A. I don't know when he made that decision. 22 Q. Was that meeting made before -- sorry. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 291 1 Was that decision made before your 2 meeting with him to talk about the proposed 3 meeting with the Census Bureau? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. When was it communicated to you not to 6 have a meeting with the Census Bureau to discuss 7 their proposal? 8 A. I don't remember the precise date. 9 Q. During your meeting with the attorney 10 general, was it communicated to you not to have 11 the meeting with the Census Bureau? 12 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for 13 information subject to deliberative process 14 privilege. 15 To the extent you can answer without 16 divulging privileged information, you may do so. 17 Otherwise, I instruct you not to answer. 18 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 19 instruction, I can't answer. 20 BY MR. HO: 21 22 Q. So just to be clear, your testimony is that the meeting that you had with the attorney Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 292 1 general, that was pre-decisional, that the 2 decision not to meet with the Census Bureau hadn't 3 been made yet at that point, correct? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. And the decision wasn't made at some 6 point during the meeting so that some portion of 7 the meeting became post-decisional, correct? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. All right. 10 I want to show you a document. 11 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 23 marked for 12 identification and attached to the 13 transcript.) 14 15 BY MR. HO: Q. This was produced to us by the Department 16 of Justice. 17 the Department of Justice in response to our 18 document subpoenas in this case. 19 October 3rd, 2018. 20 question about an entry on page 49 of the 21 document. 22 It's the fourth privilege log from It's dated And I want to ask you a The second-to-last entry on this page is Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 293 1 entry number 694. 2 the Bates number DOJ 30395. 3 It refers to a document with Do you see that? 4 A. I do. 5 Q. The description of this document is that 6 it is an e-mail from Brett Shumate to you dated 7 March 25th, 2018, correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And the description of this document 10 reads, "E-mail among DOJ attorneys discussed and 11 providing legal advice on a draft of Commerce's 12 decision memo concerning the reinstatement of a 13 citizenship question on the census. 14 includes attorneys' thoughts and mental 15 impressions concerning anticipated litigation and 16 would reveal deliberative material that pre-dates 17 Commerce's final decision memo." 18 The e-mail Did I read that right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. So it's correct that you received 21 a draft of Commerce's decision memo before the 22 final memo became public, correct? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 294 1 A. That appears to be correct. Yes. 2 Q. You don't remember receiving a draft of 3 Secretary Ross' decision memo directing the 4 inclusion of a citizenship question from 5 Mr. Shumate? 6 A. No, I do recall that. I was saying it 7 appears to be correct based on the information you 8 just read. 9 Q. Okay. Did you discuss or provide to 10 Mr. Shumate legal advice on a draft of Commerce's 11 decision memo concerning a citizenship question on 12 the census? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did Mr. Shumate share with you his 15 thoughts or mental impressions concerning 16 anticipated litigation over the citizenship 17 question? 18 A. Yes, I believe he did. 19 Q. Did you share with Mr. Shumate any 20 thoughts or mental impressions concerning 21 anticipated litigation over the citizenship 22 question? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 295 1 A. Yes, I did. 2 Q. Now, you testified to Congress you're not 3 involved in the litigation over the citizenship 4 question, correct? 5 6 7 A. I testified that that litigation is being handled by the civil division. Q. That's correct. Were you and Mr. Shumate engaged in 8 deliberations over whether to include a 9 citizenship question in the census? 10 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Form. Also 11 objection to the extent that question calls for 12 the disclosure of information subject to 13 deliberative process privilege. 14 15 To the extent you can answer that question without divulging that, you may. 16 To the extent you want to re-ask the 17 question in a different way, that might make 18 sense, too. 19 BY MR. HO: 20 Q. Were you involved in deliberations over 21 the decision over whether or not to include a 22 citizenship question on the census? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 296 1 2 A. I'm not sure I understand the question. Do you have a time frame? I think -- 3 Q. Around the time of this e-mail. 4 A. Oh. 5 Q. March 25th, 2018. 6 A. I'm not quite sure how to answer that 7 question. 8 privilege log describes what my involvement was at 9 that point. 10 Q. I think the description in the How long were you aware of the existence 11 of a draft of Secretary Ross' decision memo before 12 it became public? 13 A. I don't recall the date it was published 14 and became public, the final memo. 15 recall the first date on which I became aware that 16 a draft existed. 17 18 Q. All right. And I don't I'm going to show you another document. 19 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 24 marked for 20 identification and attached to the 21 transcript.) 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 297 1 2 3 BY MR. HO: Q. The document and the attachment. 4 5 This is Exhibit 24. MR. GARDNER: Which one do you want to be 24 and which do you want to be 25? 6 MR. HO: We'll make the e-mail 24 and the 7 attached draft letter 25. 8 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 25 marked for 9 identification and attached to the 10 11 12 13 transcript.) BY MR. HO: Q. So 24 is an e-mail from Mr. Aguinaga to you dated June 13th, 2018, correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And it makes reference to attachments of 16 draft responses to members of Congress, correct? 17 A. I believe that's correct. 18 Q. Okay. 19 Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. 22 Exhibit 25 is a draft letter to Do you see that? And I want to ask you about the draft letter, specifically, the second paragraph, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 298 1 the second sentence. 2 Before the red-line, that sentence 3 appears to read, "As you noted, the department 4 sent a letter to the Census Bureau asking that the 5 Census Bureau reinstate a question regarding 6 citizenship on the 2020 census questionnaire in an 7 effort to obtain accurate data needed to protect 8 against racial discrimination in voting." 9 Does that appear correct to you? 10 A. That appears to be correct, yes. 11 Q. It was revised to read, "As you noted, 12 the department sent a letter to the Census Bureau 13 asking the Census Bureau -- asking that the Census 14 Bureau reinstate a question regarding citizenship 15 on the 2020 census questionnaire in an effort to 16 obtain the most accurate data to protect against 17 racial discrimination in voting" with the 18 word "needed" struck out, correct? 19 A. That appears to be correct. 20 Q. Okay. The comment bubble reads, "This 21 edit is designed conform to the original JMD 22 letter, which did not say the data was necessary, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 299 1 but did indicate it would assist our enforcement 2 efforts. 3 that the letter did not say the data 4 was 'necessary,' and I think we should avoid that 5 term." 6 John's note to CIV specifically noted Did I read that right? 7 A. Yes, you did. 8 Q. Okay. So is it correct, as this comment 9 notes, that the December 12 letter requesting a 10 citizenship question be added to the census did 11 not say that it was necessary to collect CVAP data 12 through the census questionnaire for VRA 13 enforcement? 14 A. That is correct. 15 Q. And as the comment bubble indicates, you, 16 Mr. Gore, have at some point specifically noted 17 that the letter did not use the word "necessary" 18 with respect to collecting CVAP data through the 19 census questionnaire, correct? 20 A. That is what the comment says. 21 Q. And you -- my question was, you, 22 Correct. yourself, have specifically noted that the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 300 1 December 12 letter, the Gary letter, did not use 2 the word "necessary" with respect to the inclusion 3 of a citizenship question on the 2020 census, 4 correct? 5 A. Yes, I have just noted that in my 6 testimony. 7 recollection of what this comment is referring to. 8 9 10 Q. I will say I don't know -- I have no You agree, right, Mr. Gore, that CVAP data collected through the census questionnaire is not necessary for DOJ's VRA enforcement efforts? 11 A. I do agree with that. 12 Q. I'm going to show you another document. 13 Yes. We'll mark this as 26 and 27. 14 (Gore Deposition Exhibits 26 and 27 15 marked for identification and attached to 16 the transcript.) 17 18 19 BY MR. HO: Q. 26 is an e-mail from Mr. Aguinaga to you dated June 12th, 2018, correct? 20 A. Yes, it is. 21 Q. And the subject is, QFR responses, 22 correct? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 301 1 A. That is correct. 2 Q. And there's an attachment of 2020 census 3 hearing Gore QFRs CRT draft, correct? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Exhibit 27 has draft responses from you 6 to questions posed by Congressman Jimmy Gomez, 7 correct? 8 A. Yes, that's correct. 9 Q. The second answer on Exhibit 27 -- or the 10 second question and answer on Exhibit 27 read, "To 11 Mr. Gore: 12 General Sessions still in agreement with that 13 opinion? 14 may compel census to disclose confidential census 15 data for law enforcement or national security 16 purposes?" 17 Is the DOJ and Attorney Is there any provision of any law that And the response, as drafted, reads, "No 18 one should have to fear responding to the census 19 questionnaire or to a citizenship question if, in 20 fact, it is included. 21 is committed to abiding by all laws protecting the 22 confidentiality and non-disclosure of such To that end, the department Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 302 1 responses." 2 Did I read that right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. If we look back at Exhibit 26, 5 Mr. Aguinaga's e-mail to you, the fourth sentence 6 in his e-mail, beginning with the second draft 7 answer at the end of the second line, it reads, 8 "The second draft answer does not directly address 9 the question because the question asks whether the 10 department agrees with the 2010 OLC opinion and 11 whether any law compels the disclosure of 12 confidential questionnaire responses. 13 think we want to say too much there in case the 14 issues addressed in the OLC opinion or related 15 issues come up later for renewed debate." 16 17 Did I read Mr. Aguinaga's words correctly? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. 20 I don't I'm going to show you a document which we'll mark as Exhibit 28. 21 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 303 1 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 28 marked for 2 identification and attached to the 3 transcript.) 4 5 BY MR. HO: Q. This is a Department of Justice Office of 6 Legal Counsel opinion dated January 4th, 2010, 7 titled, Census confidentiality and the 8 Patriot Act. 9 10 Does that appear correct to you? A. 11 12 One moment. Yes, that appears correct. Q. When Mr. Aguinaga, in his e-mail, 13 referenced a 2010 OLC opinion concerning whether 14 any law compels the disclosure of confidential 15 questionnaire responses, he's referring to this 16 OLC memo, census confidentiality and the 17 Patriot Act, Exhibit 28, correct? 18 19 20 21 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for speculation. THE WITNESS: referring to. I'm not sure what he was I don't know. 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 304 1 2 BY MR. HO: Q. Are you aware of any other 2010 OLC 3 opinion besides Exhibit 28 that deals with the 4 confidentiality of census responses? 5 A. 6 No. MR. GARDNER: 7 foundation. 8 BY MR. HO: 9 Q. Objection. Lack of The opening paragraph of this memo -- 10 or -- I'm sorry. 11 paragraph of this memo reads, "We have identified 12 no provision of the Patriot Act that would compel 13 the Secretary to disclose such protected 14 information." 15 The last line of the opening Did I read that right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Have you seen this OLC memo before? 18 A. I believe I have once before. 19 Q. And it's your understanding that this Yes. 20 2010 OLC opinion states that there's no provision 21 of the Patriot Act that would compel the Secretary 22 of Commerce to disclose census information to Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 305 1 2 3 4 federal law enforcement, correct? A. That is correct. That's the sentence that you just read. Q. Okay. As Mr. Aguinaga notes, your draft 5 answer to Congressman Gomez does not directly 6 address this question, correct? 7 A. That was his characterization, yeah. 8 Q. Do you agree with his characterization 9 that it does not -- as drafted, that response -- 10 directly address the question of whether or not 11 the Patriot Act would compel disclosure of 12 otherwise confidential census information? 13 A. I -- I think it's responsive to the 14 extent that the second question is asking about 15 disclosure of confidential census data. 16 two-part question propounded by Congressman Gomez. 17 18 Q. I know that it's responsive. It's a I didn't dispute that. 19 A. I see. 20 Q. My question was whether or not you agreed 21 with Mr. Aguinaga's characterization that the 22 response, as drafted, does not directly address Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 306 1 2 this issue. A. Yeah. That appears to be correct. The 3 question is about whether the department and the 4 attorney general agree with that opinion. 5 6 Q. want to say too much there." 7 8 Mr. Aguinaga also said, "I don't think we Do you agree with that, that you don't want to say too much in response to this question? 9 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Form. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what 11 Mr. Aguinaga meant by that or what his reasons 12 were for that other than what he says in the rest 13 of the sentence, which you didn't read: 14 the issues addressed in the OLC opinion or related 15 issues come up later for renewed debate." 16 "In case And so I believe that what he was saying 17 was that there was no need to commit the 18 department to a position on that, given that the 19 department might have to revisit that issue at a 20 later time. 21 BY MR. HO: 22 Q. Okay. So let me just ask you about what Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 307 1 you just said there. 2 You didn't want to commit too much about 3 the department's position in case the department 4 might, at a later time, revisit whether or not the 5 Patriot Act compels the disclosure of otherwise 6 confidential census information, right? 7 A. I think -- well, it could be that or some 8 other issue. 9 be implicated, but I think it's routine for the I don't know what other issues might 10 Department of Justice not to overcommit on 11 particular legal questions that it may need to 12 revisit in light of new facts or legal 13 understanding. 14 Q. Well, you agree that when the Office of 15 Legal Counsel issues an opinion, the department is 16 committed on that opinion, correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. So the department has already 19 committed, pursuant to this memo, to the opinion 20 that the Patriot Act does not compel the 21 disclosure of otherwise confidential census 22 information, correct? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 308 1 A. That would be true as a matter of the 2 department as an institution. 3 could be revisited at a later time. 4 Q. Okay. But that commitment So you testimony is that this 5 administration might revisit the opinion as to 6 whether or not the Patriot Act compels disclosure 7 of otherwise confidential census responses to 8 federal law enforcement, correct? 9 10 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Mischaracterizes the witness' prior testimony. 11 THE WITNESS: It does mischaracterize my 12 testimony. 13 you've just asked me a hypothetical, and I won't 14 engage in a hypothetical. 15 BY MR. HO: 16 Q. No, that's not my testimony. And But the reason why, as Mr. Aguinaga put 17 it, your answer does not directly -- the proposed 18 draft does not directly answer Congressman Gomez's 19 question and that you don't want to say too much 20 about this issue is because there's a possibility 21 that the administration might abandon the view 22 that the Patriot Act does not compel the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 309 1 disclosure of otherwise confidential census 2 information, correct? 3 MR. GARDNER: 4 foundation. 5 Objection. Lack of Calls for speculation. THE WITNESS: And is a 6 mischaracterization of what Mr. Aguinaga 7 read [sic]. 8 administration. 9 addressed in the OLC opinion or related issues 10 He didn't say anything about this He just said, "In case the issues come up later for renewed debate." 11 That wouldn't necessarily have to be 12 during this administration. 13 necessarily have to be at the Department of 14 Justice. 15 court. 16 Congress. 17 could arise again. 18 It wouldn't even It's an issue that could be litigated in It's an issue that could be raised in There are all kinds of ways that issue So to the extent you're suggesting that 19 Mr. Aguinaga said anything about what this 20 administration would do, that's flatly 21 inconsistent with the actual words on the page. 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 310 1 2 BY MR. HO: Q. Is it your understanding that this 3 administration will not reconsider the view that 4 the Patriot Act does not compel disclosure of 5 otherwise confidential census information? 6 MR. GARDNER: Objection to the extent it 7 calls for the disclosure of information subject to 8 deliberative process privilege. 9 To the extent you can answer that 10 question without divulging such information, you 11 may do so. 12 answer. 13 Otherwise, I instruct you not to THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 14 instruction, I can't answer. 15 BY MR. HO: 16 Q. So you've been involved in conversations 17 about whether or not the administration might 18 abandon the view that the Patriot Act does not 19 compel the disclosure of otherwise confidential 20 census information? 21 22 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. Same instruction. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 311 1 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 2 instruction, the answer I will provide is, no, I 3 have not been involved in those conversations. 4 5 MR. HO: 8 9 But, I mean, deliberative process is what you're asserting here? 6 7 Okay. MR. GARDNER: Yes. BY MR. HO: Q. Okay. So there are deliberations occurring right now about whether or not to 10 abandon the position that the Patriot Act does not 11 compel the disclosure of otherwise confidential 12 census information? 13 14 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. Same instruction. 15 THE WITNESS: No, that's not my 16 testimony. And I am not aware of any such 17 deliberations or conversations. 18 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 29 marked for 19 identification and attached to the 20 transcript.) 21 22 BY MR. HO: Q. I'm going to show you a document marked Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 312 1 as 28. 2 MR. GARDNER: 29. 3 MR. HO: And let's do 30 as well. 4 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 30 marked for 5 identification and attached to the 6 transcript.) 7 MR. GARDNER: 8 MR. HO: 9 10 11 29. Is the e-mail 29? E-mail is 29. Article is 30. BY MR. HO: Q. Exhibit 29 is a January 3rd e-mail from Chris Herren to you, correct, Mr. Gore? 12 A. That is correct. 13 Q. Okay. And it appears to indicate that 14 you read it on January 3rd, 2018, at 12:18 p.m., 15 correct? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. And Mr. Herren is forwarding you a link 18 to a New York Times article, correct? 19 A. That appears to be correct. 20 Q. Okay. The New York Times article is 21 Exhibit 30. As you can see, the URL at the bottom 22 left-hand corner matches up with the URL that Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 313 1 Mr. Herren forwarded to you. 2 Do you see that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. The title of this article is, 5 "Critics say questions about citizenship could 6 wreck chances for an accurate census," correct? 7 A. That is correct. 8 Q. The first sentence of the article reads, 9 "A request by the Justice Department to ask people 10 about their citizenship status in the 2020 census 11 is stirring a broad backlash from census experts 12 and others who say the move could wreck chances 13 for an accurate count of the population and, by 14 extension, a fair redistricting of the House and 15 State legislatures the next decade." 16 Did I read that right? 17 A. Yes, you did. 18 Q. Okay. The fourth paragraph down reads, 19 "'I can think of no action the administration 20 could take that would be more damaging to the 21 accuracy of the 2020 census than to add a question 22 on citizenship,' Terri Ann Lowenthal, a consultant Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 314 1 and leading private expert on census issues, said 2 in an interview. 3 rug out from under efforts to have everyone 4 participate in the census as the Constitution 5 envisions.'" 6 'It would completely pull the Did I read that right? 7 A. Yes, you did. 8 Q. You received this e-mail containing this 9 link on January 3rd, right? 10 A. That appears to be correct. 11 Q. And that's before Arthur Gary forwarded 12 to you the e-mail thread between him and 13 Dr. Jarmin in which Dr. Jarmin requested to have a 14 meeting about the Census Bureau's proposal to 15 obtain CVAP data from a source other than the 16 decennial census questionnaire, correct? 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. I'm going to show you documents that I'm 19 marking as 31 and 32 -- it's just document 31. 20 apologies. 21 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 My Page 315 1 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 31 marked for 2 identification and attached to the 3 transcript.) 4 BY MR. HO: 5 Q. This is an e-mail from Arthur Gary to 6 Sarah Flores and other people. 7 on this, correct? And you have a cc 8 A. Yes, that is correct. 9 Q. And it's dated January 30th, 2018, 10 correct? 11 A. That appears to be correct. 12 Q. Mr. Gary writes, "Greetings, Sarah and 13 Ian. I received the attached letter from members 14 of Commerce's census advisory board." 15 If you turn to the third page of this 16 document, there's a letter addressed to the 17 attorney general signed by, among other people, 18 Barbara Anderson of the University of Michigan. 19 Do you see that? 20 A. Yes, I do. 21 Q. And it's dated December 9th, 2018. 22 Do you see that? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 316 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. Okay. The first paragraph of this letter 3 reads, "We are sending this e-mail in response to 4 the letter of December 12th, 2017, from Arthur E. 5 Gary of the Department of Justice to the Census 6 Bureau, which requested that citizenship be 7 included as an item on the 2020 census. 8 members of the census scientific advisory 9 committee, a congressionally mandated committee We are 10 which advises the Census Bureau on all scientific 11 matters." 12 Did I read that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. Looks like the date on this must 15 be wrong, since December 9th, 2018, hasn't 16 happened, unless it came from the future. 17 18 19 A. I was just thinking the same thing. Go ahead. Q. Okay. The second paragraph, first 20 sentence, reads, "We hold the strong opinion that 21 including citizenship on the 2020 census would be 22 a serious mistake which would result in a Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 317 1 substantial lowering of the response rate." 2 Do you see that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Now, Mr. Gore, when you testified in 5 Congress that you were not aware of any analysis 6 that the citizenship question would reduce 7 response rates to the census, you didn't mention 8 the fact that you had received multiple e-mails 9 from -- one from Chris Herren and at least one 10 from Arthur Gary that referenced analyses 11 indicating that the inclusion of a citizenship 12 question would reduce response rates, correct? 13 14 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Mischaracterizes the documents. 15 THE WITNESS: That, again, is a gross 16 mischaracterization of this document. 17 document doesn't contain any analysis on that 18 question. 19 the document purport to hold the opinion that 20 there would be a certain result. 21 22 This It simply conveys that the authors of Moreover, the New York Times article doesn't contain any analysis. It contains quotes Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 318 1 from people who hold a particular view or opinion, 2 but there's no analysis or data on that question. 3 Secretary Ross, when he took a hard look 4 at this, from what I understand based on the 5 publicly available memo of decision, didn't find 6 any empirical evidence to support that view, 7 claim, or opinion. 8 9 10 So this is not an analysis of that issue. BY MR. HO: Q. Okay. So as of the date of your 11 testimony in Congress, you were aware that people 12 had the opinion that the citizenship question 13 would reduce response rates, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. But you're saying the reason you 16 didn't mention that is because you believe that 17 was an opinion but not analysis, correct? 18 19 20 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Mischaracterizes the witness' testimony. THE WITNESS: I believe the -- and again, 21 I don't have the testimony in front of me. 22 happy to look back at the transcript. I'm I believe I Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 319 1 was asked if I was aware of an analysis. And no, 2 I was not aware of an analysis. 3 aware that certain people had taken the position 4 or espoused the opinion or the view that reduction 5 in response rates might occur. 6 was an issue for the Secretary of Commerce 7 ultimately to make a judgment call about. 8 made that judgment in his publicly available memo 9 of decision that he didn't think there was any Of course I was But again, that And he 10 empirical evidence to support that claim and that, 11 in fact, some people who made that claim conceded 12 that there was no such empirical evidence. 13 14 Q. I'm going to show you a document marked as Exhibit 32. 15 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 32 marked for 16 identification and attached to the 17 transcript.) 18 19 BY MR. HO: Q. This is a January 19th, 2018, memo 20 drafted by -- from Dr. John Abowd, chief scientist 21 of the Census Bureau, addressed to Secretary Ross. 22 Do you see that? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 320 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. Okay. This is a document from the 3 administrative record. 4 number 1277. 5 The first page is Bates You're familiar with this document? 6 A. No, I'm not. 7 Q. You've never seen this document before? 8 A. No, I don't believe I have. 9 Q. The fifth page of this document, Bates 10 number 1281, the first paragraph, last sentence, 11 about four lines from the bottom, reads, "It is, 12 therefore, a reasonable inference that a question 13 on citizenship would lead to some decline in 14 overall self-response because it would make the 15 2020 census modestly more burdensome in the direct 16 sense, and potentially much more burdensome in the 17 indirect sense, that it would need to a larger 18 decline in self-response for non-citizen 19 households." 20 Did I read that right? 21 A. Yes, you did. 22 Q. Okay. So before I read that to you, you Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 321 1 were not aware that the chief scientist of the 2 Census Bureau had opined, based on an analysis of 3 ACS data, that the inclusion of a citizenship 4 question would lead to a larger decline in 5 self-response for non-citizen households? 6 7 MR. GARDNER: Lack of foundation. 8 9 Objection. THE WITNESS: That is -- I'm not sure you've correctly characterized this statement. 10 But no, I was not aware of this statement until 11 just now. 12 BY MR. HO: 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. Or of the fact that Mr. -- I'm sorry. 15 it Dr. Abowd? 16 never met him. So -- Mr. Abowd. 17 Q. Abowd. 18 A. Abowd, thank you. 19 20 I'm not sure. I've -- had espoused that view. Q. So you're not aware that the Census 21 Bureau has conducted an analysis of ACS response 22 rates and, based on that analysis, has concluded Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Is Page 322 1 that the inclusion of a citizenship question on 2 the 2020 census is likely to reduce response rates 3 amongst non-citizen households? 4 5 6 A. I was not aware of this until today, until you handed me this document. Q. As the head of the civil rights bureau 7 [sic] and someone who depends upon accurate census 8 data for your work, does it concern you that the 9 Census Bureau has conducted an analysis indicating 10 that the inclusion of a citizenship question on 11 the 2020 census is going to lower response rates 12 amongst non-citizen households? 13 MR. GARDNER: 14 foundation. 15 the document. 16 Objection. Also, objection. THE WITNESS: Lack of Mischaracterizes The ultimate judgment as to 17 whether to include the citizenship question is one 18 for Secretary Ross and -- let me finish, because 19 you've asked me a question, and I've allowed you 20 to ask your question; now I'm going to answer 21 it -- and I understand that he made the 22 determination that there was no empirical evidence Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 323 1 to support that and that it was his judgment that 2 this citizenship question should be reinstated on 3 the census. 4 That's not a question for the Department 5 of Justice. 6 Bureau, the Department of Commerce, and 7 ultimately, Secretary Ross. 8 BY MR. HO: 9 Q. That's a question for the Census So my question wasn't about who makes the 10 ultimate judgment about -- to include a 11 citizenship question. 12 me break it up. My question was -- and let 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. You're the head of the civil rights 15 division, and the work of the civil rights 16 division depends in part upon having accurate 17 census data, correct? 18 19 20 A. We want to have the most complete and accurate data we can have. Q. That's correct. And you understand that if the response 21 rate to the census goes down, that that's going to 22 harm the accuracy of the census, right? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 324 1 2 A. Compared to a hypothetical in which the response rate wasn't reduced? 3 Q. Correct. 4 A. Sure. That sounds right. 5 Q. Okay. So -- 6 A. Potentially. 7 Q. -- if the chief scientist of the Census Yeah. 8 Bureau has conducted an analysis that you've never 9 seen before and you're learning about today -- 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 Q. -- which indicates that the inclusion of 12 a citizenship question on the census questionnaire 13 is going to reduce response rates in the best 14 judgment of the Census Bureau, does that concern 15 you? 16 17 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Mischaracterizes Exhibit 32. 18 THE WITNESS: I haven't reviewed 19 Exhibit 32, so I don't know exactly what it says. 20 And so I can't answer your question. 21 BY MR. HO: 22 Q. As I've represented Exhibit 32 to you, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 325 1 that the chief scientist of the Census Bureau has 2 opined that, in the best analysis of the Census 3 Bureau, the inclusion of a citizenship question is 4 likely to reduce the response rate to the 5 questionnaire, the census questionnaire, the 6 self-response rate -- do you understand what I've 7 just represented to you? 8 A. I believe so. 9 Q. Okay. Yes. Based on that representation, are 10 you concerned, as the head of the civil rights 11 division, about what effect the inclusion of the 12 citizenship question might have on the accuracy of 13 the data that your department relies on? 14 15 16 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Mischaracterizes Exhibit 32. THE WITNESS: I can't speak to whether 17 that's an accurate characterization of Exhibit 32. 18 And I don't have enough information, as I sit here 19 today, having not read this document or studied 20 other facts and information that might be 21 available on the issue, to form a view about it 22 one way or the other. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 326 1 2 3 BY MR. HO: Q. I'm not actually talking about Exhibit 32. 4 The chief scientist of the Census Bureau, 5 I'm representing to you, has given deposition 6 testimony in this litigation stating that the 7 analysis conducted by the Census Bureau indicates 8 that the best quantitative evidence that's 9 available to the Census Bureau at present suggests 10 to the Census Bureau and leads the Census Bureau 11 to conclude that the inclusion of a citizenship 12 question is likely to reduce self-response rates 13 to the census questionnaire. 14 15 16 Do you understand the representation that I've just made to you? A. I do. I can't verify whether it's 17 accurate, since I'm not familiar with that 18 deposition testimony. 19 Q. That's fine. But assuming that it is, 20 does that concern you about the inclusion of a 21 citizenship question on the census, given that the 22 department that you run relies upon accurate Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 327 1 census data? 2 3 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Misrepresents Dr. Abowd's previous testimony. 4 THE WITNESS: 5 hypothetical on that. 6 For example, you're talking about a reduction of a 7 response rate on the census, but I don't know how 8 that would -- how that would affect the 9 reliability of the census compared to the 10 Again, I can't engage in a I don't know all the facts. reliability of the ACS. 11 There's a lot of facts and information 12 here that I just don't know, so I can't come to a 13 conclusion or make a view on that one way or the 14 other. 15 BY MR. HO: 16 Q. Do you plan on having any conversations 17 with the Census Bureau -- and when I say "you," I 18 mean the civil rights division -- about the 19 accuracy of census information once the 20 citizenship question is included? 21 22 A. Again, that's a hypothetical about what's going to happen in the future. I will say that I Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 328 1 2 3 4 5 6 would expect -Q. It's actually a question about your current intentions. A. My current intentions. I would expect that conversations like that could occur. Q. Sure. Are there any planned meetings between 7 the civil rights division and the Census Bureau 8 about the effect that the citizenship question on 9 the 2020 census is going to have on the accuracy 10 11 of census data? A. I'm not aware of any such meetings, nor 12 do I know whether any such meetings would be 13 productive at this point, since the 2020 census 14 hasn't yet been conducted and nobody knows what 15 the effect of the citizenship question on that 16 particular census will be. 17 Q. Mr. Gore, are you aware of any other 18 circumstance in which the Department of Commerce 19 has reached out to the Department of Justice to 20 see if the Department of Justice would request 21 data from the Census Bureau? 22 A. I'm not aware of any other such instance, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 329 1 no. 2 MR. HO: 3 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 4 record. Can we go off the record? We are going off the The time on the video is 3:57 p.m. 5 (A recess was taken.) 6 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 7 number 6. 8 are on the record. 9 BY MR. HO: 10 Q. This begins media unit The time on the video is 4:15 p.m. We Mr. Gore, just to circle back on 11 something we talked about earlier, when Attorney 12 General Sessions made the decision for there not 13 to be a meeting between DOJ technical staff and 14 the Census Bureau, at that time, Secretary Ross 15 had not yet issued his decision memo directing the 16 inclusion of a citizenship question on the census, 17 correct? 18 A. That is correct. 19 Q. So it's accurate to say, since that 20 decision memo had not yet been issued, that that 21 decision memo did not play any role in the 22 decision that was made not to have a meeting Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 330 1 between Census Bureau and technical staff, 2 correct? 3 4 A. That is -- I believe that's correct. Q. Okay. Yes. 5 6 (Gore Deposition Exhibits 33 and 34 7 marked for identification and attached to 8 the transcript.) 9 BY MR. HO: 10 Q. I just want to show you two more 11 documents that have been marked as Exhibits 33 and 12 34. 13 33 is an e-mail from Ben Aguinaga to you 14 and Prim Escalona dated April 6th, 2018, correct? 15 16 A. Are you referring to the e-mail at the top of the page? 17 Q. Correct. 18 A. Yes, that's correct. 19 Q. It's a thread, but the top e-mail is from 20 Ben Aguinaga to you and someone else dated 21 April 6th, 2018, correct? 22 A. That is correct. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 331 1 Q. Okay. And there are various attachments 2 to this e-mail, one of which is census citizenship 3 question briefing paper, correct? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. Okay. And if you look at Exhibit 34, 6 it's a document titled, Census citizenship 7 question. 8 9 This is the briefing paper that was attached to that e-mail, correct? 10 A. I can't verify that for sure, but -- 11 Q. Does it appear to be? 12 A. It appears to be -- yes, it appears to be 13 14 15 a briefing paper on that topic. Q. Okay. And the subject is, AG prep for CJS Approps. hearing, correct? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. Okay. So this citizenship -- census 18 citizenship question briefing paper, Exhibit 34, 19 it's for the attorney general, correct? 20 A. That is correct. 21 Q. Okay. 22 Exhibit 34, at the top, the first bullet under the section background reads, "Not Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 802 Page 332 1 public. In 2017, Secretary of Commerce Wilbur 2 Ross requested that the Justice Department send a 3 letter requesting the addition of a citizenship 4 question on the 2020 census." 5 6 Is that statement accurate, as far as you know? 7 8 MR. GARDNER: 11 Lack of foundation. 9 10 Objection. THE WITNESS: As far as I know, yes. BY MR. HO: Q. And when in 2017, if you know, did 12 Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross request that the 13 Justice Department send a letter requesting the 14 addition of a citizenship question? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. And it's correct that, as of the date of 17 this e-mail, April 6th, 2018, the fact that 18 Secretary of Commerce Ross requested that the 19 Justice Department send a letter requesting the 20 addition of a citizenship question was not public, 21 correct? 22 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Lack of Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 802 802/ 601 Page 333 1 foundation. 2 THE WITNESS: 3 believe that's correct. 4 sure. 5 BY MR. HO: 6 Q. I believe that was -- I I don't remember for And it's also correct that, as of 7 April 6th, 2018, the Department of Justice was 8 attempting to maintain the fact that 9 Secretary Ross had requested that the Justice 10 Department send a letter requesting the addition 11 of a citizenship question -- that the Justice 12 Department was attempting to maintain the fact 13 that that information was not public, correct? 14 15 16 A. I'm not sure whether that's correct or Q. Were you authorized, as of April 6th, not. 17 2018, to publicly discuss the fact that the 18 Secretary of Commerce had requested that the 19 Justice Department send a letter requesting the 20 addition of a citizenship question? 21 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Vague. 22 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't know what you Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 334 1 mean by that, but I don't know that I was 2 authorized or not authorized to do so. 3 BY MR. HO: 4 Q. As far as you know, it had not yet been 5 made public as of April 6th, 2018, that Secretary 6 of Commerce Ross had requested the Justice 7 Department send a letter requesting the addition 8 of a citizenship question, correct? 9 10 11 A. As far as I know and can recall, that's correct. Q. Why, if you know, was it not public by 12 April 6th, 2018, that Secretary Ross had requested 13 that the Justice Department send a letter 14 requesting the addition of a citizenship question? 15 16 MR. GARDNER: foundation. 17 18 Objection. Lack of Calls for speculation. THE WITNESS: I don't know. BY MR. HO: 19 Q. You don't know one way or the other? 20 A. I don't know one way or the other. 21 22 MR. HO: Okay. We can go off the record. I think those are all the questions -- Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 335 1 2 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: record. We are going off the The time on the video is 4:20 p.m. 3 (A recess was taken.) 4 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 5 6 7 8 9 10 record. We are back on the The time on the video is 4:23 p.m. EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE LUPE PLAINTIFFS BY MS. HULETT: Q. Hello, Mr. Gore. My name is Denise Hulett and I represent the Lupe plaintiffs in a case in Maryland. 11 I want to ask you first a few questions 12 about redistricting. Do you hold any opinion as 13 to whether states should redistrict based on total 14 population or on some other measure? 15 A. I do not. 16 Q. And do you know whether Attorney 17 General Sessions holds any opinions on that topic? 18 A. I do not. 19 Q. And do you hold any opinion as to whether 20 congressional seats should be apportioned based on 21 total population or some other measure? 22 A. I do not. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 336 1 2 Q. And do you know whether Attorney General Sessions holds any opinions on that topic? 3 A. I do not. 4 Q. Have you ever discussed either one of 5 those topics with Attorney General Sessions? 6 A. I believe I may have discussed the topic 7 about apportionment with the attorney general at 8 some point. 9 10 Q. Was that leading to any decision that you needed to make? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And what decision was that? 13 A. The decision about -- related to the 14 issue in this case. 15 16 17 I think it was. Q. How was it related to the issue in this case? MR. GARDNER: Objection to the extent 18 that that calls for information subject to 19 deliberative process privilege. 20 To the extent you can answer without 21 divulging privileged information, you may do so. 22 Otherwise, I'd instruct you not to answer. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 337 1 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 2 instruction, I can't answer. 3 BY MS. HULETT: 4 Q. So in the context of your deliberations, 5 there was some decision made as to the use of some 6 other measure than total population for purposes 7 of apportionment or -- let me take that back. 8 me start over. Let 9 The -- in the context of the decision 10 that was made to request the citizenship data, 11 part of your deliberations leading to that 12 decision was the topic of whether total population 13 or some other measure should be used for 14 apportionment? 15 MR. GARDNER: Objection to the extent it 16 calls for information subject to deliberative 17 process privilege. 18 To the extent you can answer without 19 disclosing privileged information, you may do so. 20 Otherwise, I instruct you not to answer. 21 22 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that instruction, I can't answer. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 338 1 2 BY MS. HULETT: Q. Okay. But just so I'm clear on it, you 3 have had discussions with Attorney 4 General Sessions on the topic of whether 5 apportionment or redistricting should be conducted 6 using total population or some other measure? 7 8 MR. GARDNER: Objection to the extent it mischaracterizes the witness' previous testimony. 9 THE WITNESS: I stand by my prior answer 10 that I had a conversation with the attorney 11 general about the question of the use of total 12 population or some other measure for apportionment 13 purposes. 14 BY MS. HULETT: 15 Q. And you can't disclose that conversation 16 because it was during the pre-deliberative process 17 leading to the decision as to whether to request 18 that the Census Bureau include a citizenship 19 question on the decennial census? 20 A. That is correct. 21 Q. Okay. 22 Have you had any conversations with anyone else about whether apportionment or Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 339 1 redistricting should be conducted using total 2 population or some other measure? 3 A. I imagine I have. Yes. 4 Q. And do you recall any of those 5 conversations that are not covered by deliberative 6 privilege? 7 A. No. 8 Q. So every conversation that you've ever 9 10 had is covered by deliberative privilege with regard to this citizenship question issue? 11 12 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Mischaracterizes the witness' previous testimony. 13 THE WITNESS: I would say conversations 14 that I can recall that have taken place while I've 15 been employed by the Department of Justice would 16 all fall within that category, that's correct. 17 It's possible that I had conversations regarding 18 that topic while I was in private practice, but 19 those obviously were before my time serving in the 20 government and wouldn't relate to this particular 21 letter. 22 There was a case that went to the Supreme Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 340 1 Court a couple of terms ago, the Evenwel versus 2 Abbott case, which raised this issue, and I may 3 have discussed that case or read the briefs in 4 that case while I was still in private practice. 5 BY MS. HULETT: 6 Q. Did you have an opinion as to whether or 7 not Evenwel was decided correctly by the U.S. 8 Supreme Court? 9 A. At what point in time? 10 Q. After the opinion came out. 11 A. Yeah, the opinion came out while I was in 12 private practice, and I believe I had an opinion 13 on that. 14 Q. And what was your opinion on that at that 16 A. That it was correctly decided. 17 Q. Have you had any conversations with any 15 18 19 time? state officials -- let me start again. Have there been any state officials that 20 communicated to the Department of Justice about 21 the possibility of using data other than total 22 population for redistricting purposes? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 341 1 A. I don't know -- I can't speak for other 2 individuals in the Department of Justice. 3 tell you that no state official has communicated 4 with me about that. 5 has communicated with some other person associated 6 with the Department of Justice, I don't know. 7 Q. I can Whether some state official I'm going to ask you a few questions 8 about Section 203. Are you familiar with 9 Section 203 of the Voting Rights Act? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And do you agree that Section 203 12 requires the director of the census to determine 13 which jurisdictions meet the requirements for 14 coverage under Section 203? 15 A. Yes, I do. 16 Q. And in order to make that determination, 17 do you agree that it's necessary to estimate the 18 total population of voting age persons who are 19 citizens? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And that the permitted data source for 22 I believe that's correct. those estimates are the most current available ACS Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 342 1 data; isn't that correct? 2 A. That is correct. Those determinations 3 have to be made by the Census Bureau every five 4 years. 5 specifically mentioned in the statute that 6 Congress enacted directing the Census Bureau to 7 make those determinations. 8 9 10 And I believe that the ACS data is I believe that the Gary letter also mentions that issue in the last or second-to-last paragraph. 11 Q. So you would agree, then, that whether or 12 not the short form contains the citizenship 13 question, the data for Section 203 coverage will 14 continue to come from the ACS or will have to 15 continue to come from the ACS? 16 A. I -- some data related to 203 will 17 continue to come from the ACS because those 18 determinations are made every five years. 19 I can't remember the wording of the 20 statute precisely as to whether the Census Bureau 21 is required to consider that data or can use other 22 data. It may be permitted to use other data as Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 343 1 well. But I'm familiar that its current practice 2 is to use the ACS data. 3 And the decennial census data obviously 4 is only available every ten years, not every five 5 years. 6 Q. I'd like to draw your attention back to 7 this Exhibit 17, which is the December 12th, 8 2017 -- I think we've been referring to it as the 9 Gary letter. 10 A. 11 Yes. Bear with me one moment. exhibits are not in order. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. Let me see if I can find it. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 My Got it. Thank you. Q. When you were -- do you see that you've cited several cases in this letter? A. I see that the department has cited several cases in the letter. Q. Yes. You drafted -- did the initial draft of this letter, correct? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. And when you were drafting the letter, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 344 1 did you, personally, do the research that resulted 2 in the citation to these particular cases or did 3 someone else do it for you and send them to you? 4 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for 5 information subject to deliberative process 6 privilege. 7 I instruct the witness not to answer. THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 8 instruction, I can't answer. 9 BY MS. HULETT: 10 Q. So you can't tell me whether you chose 11 these cases or whether someone else chose these 12 cases for inclusion in the letter because that's 13 deliberative process? 14 understand what you're refusing to answer. 15 16 17 18 A. Yes. I just want to make sure I That's on the instruction of counsel. Q. Okay. Did you read the opinions that are cited in the letter? 19 A. Yes, I did. 20 Q. How recently have you read the opinions? 21 A. Well, let me look at which opinions we're 22 talking about. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 345 1 Q. Well, to start with, I'm talking about 2 Reyes versus City of Farmers Branch, Barnett 3 versus City of Chicago, Negron versus City of 4 Miami Beach, Romero versus City of Pomona, and 5 LULAC versus Perry. 6 A. I read all of those cases before this 7 letter was sent. 8 versus Perry decision more recently than that. 9 Q. And I may have read the LULAC And before you list these cases, the 10 sentence right before the cases in the second 11 paragraph says, "Multiple federal courts of appeal 12 have held that, where citizenship rates are at 13 issue in a vote dilution case, citizen voting age 14 population is the proper metric for determining 15 whether a racial group could constitute a majority 16 in a single-member district." 17 Did I read that correctly? 18 A. Yes, you did. 19 Q. These are all appellate court or Supreme 20 Court cases. 21 opinions in these cases? 22 A. Did you read any of the lower court I believe I did. Yes. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 346 1 Q. And do any of these appellate court 2 opinions that are cited in this paragraph hold 3 that long-form data or ACS survey data is 4 deficient or unsuitable for use in a Section 2 5 analysis? 6 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so. 8 Compound. BY MS. HULETT: 9 Q. Would you agree that the Supreme Court 10 has not yet adopted a standard requiring proof of 11 citizen voting age majority to meet the prong 1 12 Gingles test? 13 A. I think you're asking me for a legal 14 conclusion, and I don't believe the Supreme Court 15 has addressed that question squarely. 16 versus Perry decision does analyze vote dilution 17 claims by reference to citizen voting age 18 population. 19 Texas. 20 The LULAC That's a case out of the State of And that's my recollection of that case. But to the extent you're asking me for a 21 legal opinion, I don't know that I can provide 22 one. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 347 1 Q. The question of whether prong 1 requires 2 a showing of a majority of CVAP or some other 3 majority requirement wasn't squarely addressed in 4 LULAC versus Perry, though, was it? 5 6 MR. GARDNER: Objection. That does call for a legal conclusion. 7 THE WITNESS: Right, that calls for a 8 legal conclusion, and I haven't read that case 9 recently enough to remember. 10 11 BY MS. HULETT: Q. I want to talk for a moment about the 12 first case that you cite, Reyes versus Farmers 13 Branch, at 586 F.3d 1019. 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. Is this one of the cases in which you 16 read the district court opinion? 17 A. I believe so. 18 Q. And do you recall that the court in that 19 case found that plaintiffs were unable to 20 establish a prong 1 CVAP majority based solely on 21 2000 decennial census data? 22 A. I do not recall that. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 348 1 2 Q. The trial in this case occurred in 2006 [sic]. 3 MR. GARDNER: 4 MS. HULETT: 5 MR. GARDNER: MS. HULETT: 9 MR. GARDNER: 10 MS. HULETT: 11 MR. GARDNER: 13 I was asking if that was a question. 8 12 I'm not finished with my question yet. 6 7 Is that a question? No. Sorry. It's not. Please continue. BY MS. HULETT: Q. The trial in this case occurred in 2008. 14 Is it fair to say that in this Farmers Branch 15 case, plaintiffs well past mid-decade were stuck 16 with long-form data that came from the 2000 17 census? 18 A. 19 20 I don't recall the case or the issues in the case, so I don't know as I sit here today. MS. HULETT: I'd like to introduce as 21 Exhibit 35 a copy of the district court opinion in 22 Reyes versus City of Farmers Branch, at 2008 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 349 1 Westlaw 4791498. 2 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 35 marked for 3 identification and attached to the 4 transcript.) 5 BY MS. HULETT: 6 Q. Do you see the date on the opinion -- 7 A. I see a date. 8 Q. -- that says November 4th, 2008? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. If you look at -- I'm sorry. 11 Yes. Forgive me. I though I had this -- here we go. 12 If you look at page 6 -- page 6 at the 13 bottom of the page, top right-hand column, the 14 sentence reads, "Thus, plaintiffs are unable to 15 establish an HCVAP majority based solely on 2000 16 census data. 17 the TLC's estimate of SSRVs in the proposed 18 district to establish Gingles 1." 19 Accordingly, plaintiffs looked to Did I read that correctly? 20 A. You did. 21 Q. So the parties in this case didn't have 22 ACS data because it wasn't available yet, correct? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 350 1 MR. GARDNER: 2 foundation. 3 BY MS. HULETT: 4 5 Q. Objection. Lack of The court didn't have ACS data before it, correct? 6 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I've not 8 studied the record in the case. 9 I've not read this opinion in a long time. 10 11 And as I said, BY MS. HULETT: Q. Are you aware that, a few years later, 12 when ACS data was available, Latino voters sued 13 Farmers Branch again? 14 A. That could be. 15 Q. The case is called Fabela versus City of 16 17 18 I don't know. Farmers Branch. MS. HULETT: I'd like to mark that as Exhibit 36. 19 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 36 marked for 20 identification and attached to the 21 transcript.) 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 351 1 2 3 4 5 6 BY MS. HULETT: Q. Do you recall whether you ever read this opinion? A. Bear with me for one second. I believe I have read this opinion at some point. Q. Is there any reason why you didn't 7 include this case in your letter, since it was 8 brought in the same town under Section 2 a few 9 years later? 10 A. 11 12 I've not read this case in some time, so I don't recall that one way or the other. Q. Do you recall that, because it was a 13 small town plaintiffs were attempting to district, 14 some of the ACS data had to be disaggregated down 15 to the block level? 16 A. I'm not aware of that. 17 Q. Are you aware that it was the DOJ that 18 19 20 21 22 requested that breakdown down to the block level? A. I'm not aware of that as I sit here today. Q. If you look on page 5, first column, down at the bottom there's a paragraph that starts with Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 352 1 the word "rather." 2 middle of it, there is a sentence that says, 3 "Defendants rely primarily" -- 4 5 A. And if you go down to the I'm sorry. I don't mean to interrupt, but -- 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. -- I'm looking at page 5 and I don't see 8 a paragraph that starts with "rather." 9 Q. I'm sorry, it's page 6. 10 A. Page 6. 11 Q. That's why. 12 A. Thank you. 13 14 you, I apologize. Q. No, that's fine. 15 MR. GARDNER: 16 MS. HULETT: 17 MR. GARDNER: 18 I didn't mean to interrupt Can you reorient us? My fault. Can you reorient us again where on page 6 we should be looking? 19 MS. HULETT: Page 6, column 1, the last 20 paragraph, seven lines down. 21 BY MS. HULETT: 22 Q. It says, "Defendants rely primarily on Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 353 1 the following contentions to challenge Ely's 2 Hispanic CVAP estimates. 3 of error for the ACS data. 4 the ACS and census is statistically problematic 5 and there are various errors and uncertainties in 6 estimating the number, location, and citizenship 7 status of the Hispanic population." 8 9 10 11 There are high margins Combining data from The high margin of error in block-level data is one of the objections that the DOJ has to using the ACS data, correct? A. No, I don't think that's correct. I 12 don't think the DOJ has an objection to using the 13 ACS data. 14 Gary letter and otherwise is that the DOJ would 15 like to have the most complete, accurate and 16 reliable data it can possibly have, and that would 17 include as much data as we can get our hands on, 18 which is the way of the data-driven world in which 19 we live. 20 Q. I believe what the DOJ has said in the Are you aware that, in this particular 21 case, over the objection that I just read to you 22 by defendants, the court found the ACS data to be Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 354 1 adequate for the purposes of Gingles prong 1 2 compliance? 3 A. I am not aware of that. 4 Q. I'll direct your attention to the bottom 5 of page 5. 6 finds that plaintiffs have proved they can draw a 7 demonstration district that contains greater than 8 50 percent Hispanic CVAP and have, therefore, 9 satisfied the first prong." 10 On the right-hand column, "The court So I'm going to call these two cases 11 together the Farmers Branch saga. 12 Farmers Branch case, plaintiffs were relying on 13 the long-form 2000 data here, over the objection 14 of defendants who said, among other things, that 15 the margin of error was too high for ACS data. 16 Same town, same challenge, a few years later they 17 had the ACS data and they prevailed. 18 In the first So would it be fair to say that the 19 Farmers Branch saga, these two cases together, 20 stands for the court's acceptance of continually 21 updated ACS service -- survey citizenship data 22 over other means of demonstrating Gingles Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 355 1 compliance? 2 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Form. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't know whether that 4 would be fair to say or not. As I've said, I 5 haven't studied those opinions recently, and so I 6 can't give an opinion or state a view or 7 characterize those opinions as I sit here today. 8 BY MS. HULETT: 9 Q. But you think you did read this opinion? 10 A. I believe I've read both of those 11 12 13 14 opinions at some point in my lifetime. Q. But you only included the first one in the letter, correct? A. I all the cases -- well, I believe you're 15 asking me what the department included in the 16 letter. 17 are appellate court cases or Supreme Court cases. 18 And all the cases included in the letter Q. The next case that you cite in that 19 paragraph of Exhibit 17 is Barnett versus City of 20 Chicago. 21 22 Did that case hold that citizenship voting age population is the proper metric for Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 356 1 determining prong 1 of Gingles, like your letter 2 says, or for measuring proportional equality of 3 voting power? 4 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't know, as I sit here 6 today. 7 8 MS. HULETT: question. 9 10 It's a -- MS. HULETT: alternative. 13 BY MS. HULETT: 16 You asked two questions with -- 12 15 Well, it's not a compound MR. GARDNER: 11 14 Compound. Q. -- question in the Do you know whether Barnett -- where is my copy of that letter? In your letter, last paragraph, it says, 17 "Multiple federal courts of appeal have held that, 18 where citizenship rates are at issue in a vote 19 dilution case, citizen voting age population is 20 the proper metric for determining whether a racial 21 group could constitute a majority in a 22 single-member district." Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 357 1 2 That's not what Barnett held, did it? A. As I sit here today, I don't recall 3 exactly what Barnett held or what that case said. 4 I understand that, when you're referring to this 5 as "your letter," you're referring to the 6 Department of Justice? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. Thank you. 9 Q. At the time you included it, you 10 obviously thought that it was a case that held 11 that citizen voting age population is the proper 12 metric for determining whether a racial group 13 could constitute a majority in a single-member 14 district, correct? 15 A. I don't know that I can speak to what the 16 department or any individual thought. 17 that the citation begins with a CEG cite, the 18 string cite following that sentence, which 19 generally suggests that the cases in authority 20 cited lend some support to that proposition. 21 22 Q. I will say The third case you cite is Negron versus City of Miami Beach. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 358 1 Did you read that case? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. Now, that case does actually directly 4 deal with prong 1. 5 Do you recall that, in that case, 6 plaintiffs lost because they couldn't meet the 7 prong 1 standard? 8 A. I do not recall that as I sit here today. 9 Q. Do you recall whether this case imposes 10 that blanket rule that citizen voting age 11 population is the proper metric for determining 12 whether a racial group could constitute a majority 13 in a single-member district? 14 A. 15 I don't recall that as I sit here today. MS. HULETT: 16 Exhibit 37. 17 Negron. I'd like to mark this as It's a copy of a case you cited, 18 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 37 marked for 19 identification and attached to the 20 transcript.) 21 22 BY MS. HULETT: Q. Negron versus City of Miami Beach, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 359 1 113 F.3d 1563. 2 bottom, the last full paragraph, 13 lines down, 3 sentence beginning with the word "of course." 4 course the requirement that voting age population 5 data be further refined by citizenship data 6 applies only where there is reliable information 7 indicating a significant difference in citizenship 8 rates between the majority and minority 9 population." 10 And if you look on page 8 at the So this is not a case that imposes a 11 blanket rule that CVAP population is the proper 12 prong 1 metric, is it? 13 A. Again, I've not re-read this case 14 recently, and so I can't state a view on that 15 question one way or another. 16 "Of Q. You didn't mention the qualification in 17 this sentence in your letter, though, in the DOJ's 18 letter. 19 A. Well, I belive the department's letter 20 does, in fact, say that courts of appeal have held 21 that, where citizenship rates are at issue in a 22 vote dilution case -- so yeah, I do believe that Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 360 1 that incorporates that idea. 2 Q. And this case also upheld the district 3 court's consideration of citizenship statistics 4 even though they were based on sample data, didn't 5 it? 6 A. I don't recall that as I sit here today. 7 Q. Can you look at page 8, second column, 8 last full paragraph? 9 Have you finished reading it? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Do you agree that the court declined to 12 reject the citizenship data simply because it was 13 based on sample data? 14 A. 15 16 Sorry, I'm still reading. Can you repeat your question? Q. Would you agree that the court declined 17 to reject the CVAP data solely because the data 18 was based on sample data without some indication 19 that the sample was tainted in some way? 20 A. I believe that the paragraph speaks for 21 itself. 22 It doesn't use -- I don't see the word "tainted." I'm not sure that's exactly what it says. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 361 1 I see the word "skewed." 2 And then I see the court saying that 3 reasonably accurate citizenship information should 4 be taken into account. 5 the position of the Department of Justice as well. 6 Q. And that is, of course, Four -- one, two, three -- four lines 7 down page 8, last paragraph. 8 it, and you tell me if I read it correctly. 9 use of sample data is a long-standing statistical 10 technique, whose limits are known and measurable. 11 We will not reject the citizenship statistics 12 solely because they are based on sample data 13 without some indication that the sample was 14 tainted in some way." 15 16 I'm going to read "The Have I read that correctly? A. You have read that correctly. And this 17 case from 1997 predates the ACS data. 18 sample data being referred to here is some other 19 sample data, and I don't know what that is. 20 Q. So the But you would agree with me, then, that 21 this case specifically approves the use of sample 22 data for measuring citizenship, regardless of Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 362 1 whether it came from CVAP -- I mean, ACS or long 2 form? 3 A. Again, I haven't read the whole opinion 4 in a long time, and I'm not familiar with the data 5 in the record, so I don't have a view on that as I 6 sit here today. 7 Q. All right. You also cite Campos versus 8 City of Houston in your December 12th letter, 9 correct? 10 11 A. Let's see. I believe that's on page 2 of the letter. 12 Q. Did you read that case? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. Do you recall that, in that case, 15 plaintiffs actually urged the court to reject 16 citizenship data based on the long-form survey 17 because it was derived from a sampling of the 18 population as opposed to the head count? 19 A. I do not recall that as I sit here today. 20 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 38 marked for 21 identification and attached to the 22 transcript.) Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 363 1 2 BY MS. HULETT: Q. I'm going to introduce as Exhibit 38 3 Campos versus City of Houston, 113 F.3d 544. I'd 4 like to direct your attention to page 4, the 5 right-hand column. 6 says, "Use of citizenship data in the Gingles 7 analysis." 8 reverse the district court and abandon the 9 examination of citizenship data as a factor for a There's a subheading B that And it says, "Plaintiffs urge us to 10 vote dilution claim. 11 general census data, which the Supreme Court has 12 determined to be not inherently unreliable despite 13 its significant shortcomings, citizenship data is 14 derived from a 12 percent sampling of the 15 population, as opposed to a 100 percent head 16 count." 17 18 They contend that unlike The court declined to reject survey-based citizenship data in this case, didn't it? 19 A. I don't recall, as I sit here today. 20 Q. In the very last paragraph right under 21 what I've just read, it says, "Despite these 22 limitations, we decline to reject citizenship as a Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 364 1 relevant factor in the Gingles analysis." 2 Do you see that? 3 A. I do. 4 Q. So would you agree, then, that this 5 decision doesn't support the DOJ position that 6 survey citizenship data is less well suited for 7 prong 1 purposes -- 8 A. No, I do not. 9 Q. -- than head count -- hard count data? 10 A. No, I do not agree with that. 11 Q. Why is that? 12 A. Well, first of all, I haven't read this 13 opinion in its entirety in a long time, so I don't 14 have a view on what it does or does not hold, nor 15 what the implications of that decision are with 16 respect to the DOJ request. 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q. When is the last time you read any of these opinions? A. I don't believe I've read any of these opinions in a long time. Q. All right. All right. I'm going to change subjects for a moment and refer you to -- Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 365 1 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 39 marked for 2 identification and attached to the 3 transcript.) 4 5 BY MS. HULETT: Q. I'd like to show you Exhibit 39, which is 6 a series of January 2nd, 2018, e-mails between you 7 and Devin O'Malley regarding review of a statement 8 in response to citizenship question on census. 9 10 Who is Devin O'Malley? A. Devin O'Malley at the time was employed 11 in the Department of Justice's Office of Public 12 Affairs. 13 Q. Is that a Ms. or a Mr.? 14 A. Mr. 15 Q. Do you recall this exchange, this e-mail 16 exchange? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. On page 2, Mr. O'Malley asks you at 19 4:28 -- it's right in the center of the page on 20 page 2 -- "There's no reason I can't point the 21 reporter to the Constitution on background and 22 make the point that there's somewhat of a Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 366 1 constitutional basis for using the census in this 2 process and not the ACS, right?" 3 And right above it is your response: 4 "It's a little bit of a stretch, but it's okay 5 with me." 6 How is there a constitutional basis for 7 using a census rather than the ACS to collect 8 citizenship data? 9 A. Unlike the ACS, the census is actually 10 mentioned in the Constitution. 11 directs the federal government to conduct a census 12 every ten years. 13 the Constitution. 14 15 Q. The Constitution There's no mention of the ACS in The ACS is run by the Census Bureau, right -- conducted by the Census Bureau? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. But you don't consider it to be part of 18 19 the census? A. I consider -- I believe what Mr. O'Malley 20 is referring to here is a decennial census versus 21 the ACS. 22 decennial census. I understand the ACS is not part of the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 367 1 2 3 Q. And what did you mean that it's a stretch? A. I believe what I meant was it's certainly 4 correct that the census is mentioned in the 5 Constitution and that the ACS isn't. 6 wasn't -- I don't believe that that was a reason 7 mentioned in the Gary letter for seeking 8 reinstatement of the citizenship question on the 9 census questionnaire. 10 11 Q. But I And you think the argument is a bit of a stretch? 12 A. Which argument? 13 Q. The argument that the Constitution 14 supports -- that there's a constitutional basis 15 for using the decennial census instead of the ACS. 16 17 18 A. I -- yeah, I believe that's a little bit of a stretch. Q. On page 3, in another e-mail from you in 19 this exchange at 4:04, you say, "Unfortunately, 20 it's not accurate to blame the prior 21 administration for abandoning the citizenship 22 question on the census questionnaire. That move Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 368 1 was put into place under bush after the 2000 2 census. 3 4 The ACS started under Bush." When you say "prior administration," you mean the Obama administration? 5 A. Yes, I do. 6 Q. And why was it unfortunate? 7 A. I'm referring to the e-mail that 8 Mr. O'Malley had written, which is on page 4. 9 second paragraph of that e-mail, the second The 10 sentence, he had drafted a sentence saying, "In 11 2010, the previous administration abandoned this 12 long-established practice and utilized an entirely 13 different data set, called the American Community 14 Survey, which has no statutory relevance to 15 apportionment and has the potential for 16 statistical inaccuracies that could be detrimental 17 to the protection of voting rights." 18 My response to that was that that 19 sentence was inaccurate. 20 Mr. O'Malley off easy for the fact that he didn't 21 know that. 22 Q. And I was trying to let And -- but why did you think it was Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 369 1 unfortunate that you couldn't blame the prior 2 administration? 3 A. I thought it -- what I was trying to do 4 was let Mr. O'Malley off easy. He's not a lawyer 5 and wasn't familiar with that, and I wanted to be 6 more polite in my response to him as opposed to 7 more direct. 8 Q. All right. 9 A. He's a wonderful guy. 10 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 40 marked for 11 identification and attached to the 12 transcript.) 13 14 BY MS. HULETT: Q. I'd like to introduce Exhibit 40. This 15 is an e-mail exchange between you and Ben -- I'm 16 trying to see if anybody else is -- you, 17 Ann Riley, a few other people, Ben Aguinaga. 18 19 20 And at the bottom of page 1 -- do you recall this e-mail exchange, by the way? A. 21 22 Well, let me review it. Yes, I do. Q. And the subject of the exchange is, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 370 1 Commerce edits Oversight and Government Reform 2 hearing on May 8th, Gore opening statement. 3 This was right before your congressional 4 testimony before the Oversight and Government 5 Reform hearing, correct? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. And if you look on page 2 at the bottom, 8 the e-mail from Ann Riley says, please send 9 from -- "Please see edits from commerce to your 10 revised testimony attached. 11 as possible how you respond." 12 Let me know as soon And then, if you look on page 1 at the 13 bottom from her again, says, "I've sent our 14 rejection to OMB and I've gotten the following 15 response: 16 goes beyond what the letter says. 17 rather, that it provides a concise explanation as 18 to why DOJ is sending the letter. 19 to reconsider and accept this language?" 20 Congress disagrees that the language Commerce find, Is DOJ willing Do you recall what the -- what the 21 language was that DOJ was not initially agreeing 22 to, what edit it was? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 371 1 A. I do not recall that as I sit here today. 2 Q. I'm going to show you the attachment to 3 this e-mail and mark it as Exhibit 41. 4 or may not help your recollection. That may 5 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 41 marked for 6 identification and attached to the 7 transcript.) 8 9 BY MS. HULETT: Q. This appears to be the edits that 10 Commerce made to your statement before the 11 Committee on Oversight and Government Reform for 12 the May 18th hearing. 13 And because the e-mail says, "Commerce 14 finds that their edits provide a concise 15 explanation as to why DOJ is sending the letter," 16 I'm wondering whether the language that Commerce 17 added is at the top of page 2 at the beginning of 18 the paragraph about the fact that DOJ sent a 19 letter. 20 of the department's commitment to fair and 21 even-handed enforcement of the nation's voting 22 rights laws." So the language that adds "in furtherance Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 372 1 2 A. I have to apologize, I'm not sure -- are we reading from the same thing? 3 Q. Should be. 4 A. I'm sorry, can you repeat -- 5 MR. GARDNER: She's asking you about -- 6 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. 7 repeating your question? 8 BY MS. HULETT: 9 10 Q. Sure. Do you mind I apologize. I'm asking you whether -- this is a guess on my part. 11 A. Okay. Oh, all right. 12 Q. This was attached to the e-mail. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. The e-mail seems to say to me that 15 commerce made some edits that DOJ initially 16 disagreed with because they thought the language 17 went beyond what the letter said, and I'm assuming 18 that means the Gary letter, and that Commerce felt 19 it provided a concise explanation as to why DOJ is 20 sending the letter. 21 22 So I'm wondering whether that -- the edit that is referred to in this e-mail, is the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 373 1 addition of the language at the top of page 2 that 2 says, "In furtherance of the department's 3 commitment to fair and even-handed enforcement of 4 the nation's voting rights law," comma, and then 5 it goes on to say that -- 6 A. I see. 7 Q. -- you sent a letter. 8 A. Thank you. 9 I cannot verify that these are Commerce's 10 edits as opposed to somebody else's. 11 other references in this e-mail chain to edit that 12 OMB received from DPC. 13 version of the draft this is, so I don't know the 14 answer to your question. 15 Q. There are So I don't know which In the order that these documents were 16 produced, I'm presuming that this was the draft 17 that's attached to that e-mail. 18 A. And you may be correct about that. I 19 just can't independently verify that, as I sit 20 here today. 21 and an attachment that sounds like it's also from 22 May. These are e-mails from back in May But I can't verify that as I sit here today. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 374 1 Q. Okay. As you sit here today, do you 2 think that the language "in furtherance of the 3 department's commitment to fair and even-handed 4 enforcement of the nation's voting rights laws" 5 captures why you sent the letter or goes beyond 6 why you sent the letter? 7 MR. GARDNER: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: And by "you," you mean the 9 10 department? BY MS. HULETT: 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. Thank you. 13 14 15 I do believe that that captures the reason the department sent the letter. Q. And as you sit here today, you couldn't 16 imagine any reason why the Department of Justice 17 would take the position initially that it goes 18 beyond what the letter said? 19 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 20 THE WITNESS: No. Form. And as I said, I don't 21 know where this language came from either. 22 not clear to me that it came from the Census Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 It's Page 375 1 Bureau. 2 BY MS. HULETT: 3 Q. Okay. I want to go back to the -- to the 4 letter for a moment. And I want to direct your 5 attention to the first bullet. 6 A. All right. 7 Q. The last sentence says, "As a result, 8 using the ACS citizenship estimates means relying 9 on two different data sets, the scope and level of 10 detail of which vary quite significantly." 11 And I think earlier -- and I'm sure I 12 won't capture this exactly -- but earlier, when 13 you were talking to Mr. Ho, you described how a 14 mapper would have to load two sets of data onto 15 Maptitude or whatever program they were using 16 instead of just one; is that correct? 17 18 19 A. That is -- I believe we discussed that, Q. All right. yes. Do -- and I heard you agree 20 with the definition of prong 1 burden, that a 21 plaintiff has to demonstrate that they would be 22 able to comprise the majority and, in some cases, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 376 1 the majority of the citizen voting age population, 2 in a compact district, correct? 3 A. If I understand your question, I think 4 the "they" in your question is not referring to a 5 single plaintiff, but to a -- 6 Q. Plaintiffs. 7 A. -- minority group? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. And I believe that's correct. Plaintiffs. Under 10 step 1 of Gingles, a plaintiff or plaintiffs must 11 demonstrate that a minority group is sufficiently 12 numerous an geographically compact to constitute 13 the majority in a single-member -- compactly drawn 14 single-member district. 15 Q. And you would agree with me that the 16 Supreme Court has held that, in the context of 17 prong 1, the minority community within the 18 District has to demonstrate a shared community 19 interest in order to comply with prong 1; is that 20 correct? 21 A. That sounds correct. 22 Q. And do you know how plaintiffs Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 377 1 demonstrate that shared community of interest, 2 what data they use? 3 A. I don't know that, as I sit here today. 4 Q. Would you agree that they -- that 5 plaintiffs showing a shared interest in proving 6 that they are a compact community use 7 socioeconomic characteristics such as education, 8 income, language, literacy, those kinds of 9 characteristics? 10 A. They may. 11 Q. And that those characteristics are 12 captured by the ACS as opposed to the decennial 13 census? 14 A. 15 16 Some of that data may be captured by ACS questions. Q. But none of that data -- education, 17 income, language -- is captured on the decennial 18 census short form, is it? 19 20 21 22 A. I believe that's correct. I don't have the short form right in front of me. Q. So you'd agree that if the DOJ wanted to bring a Section 2 case, even if the citizenship Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 378 1 question is on the short form, the DOJ would have 2 to use the ACS to complete the prong 1 proof, 3 correct? 4 5 A. Not necessarily. I believe that proof could come from a source other than the ACS. 6 Q. And -- 7 A. The data or evidence regarding a shared 8 community of interest I imagine could come from 9 some other source. 10 Q. Like? 11 A. There may be other survey data or 12 13 14 15 literature on those particular issues. Q. And that data would have to be loaded on the machine with the other data, correct? A. I don't know, actually, if it does need 16 to be loaded on the machine or how else it could 17 come into evidence. 18 a witness on the stand. 19 Q. I suppose you could just put If someone wanted to show the education 20 level of the inhabitants of a prong 1 district, 21 you'd have to load that data on the machine in the 22 program to determine the characteristics of that Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 379 1 2 district, correct? A. I don't know whether that's correct. 3 That could be correct. 4 ways to introduce that information into evidence 5 other than by loading it onto the computer. 6 not meaning to quibble with you, because I don't 7 know, but you could -- I imagine, before there 8 were computers, that evidence came in somehow and 9 -- other than through the Maptitude program. 10 Q. But there may be other I am But given the Supreme Court LULAC versus 11 Perry requirements, putting the citizenship 12 question on the short form doesn't obviate 13 completely the need to use other databases for 14 prong 1 compliance. 15 16 17 A. No, I don't think it does. And I don't think we've suggested that it does. Q. Okay. And do you know what kind of 18 evidence is required to win court approval of a 19 remedial plan in a Section 2 case? 20 A. Generally, I'm aware of that. Yes. 21 Q. And what data is that? 22 A. It's similar to the data that you need to Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 380 1 prove the demonstration district for liability 2 purposes. 3 majority and that there's racially polarized 4 voting or that this remedial district otherwise 5 cures the Section 2 violation that's been proven 6 and found. 7 Q. You do have to show that you conform a And do courts review, for example, 8 registration data to gauge the effectiveness of a 9 remedial district? 10 A. They do on some occasions. And they may 11 review registration data even at Gingles 12 preconditions 2 and 3 to determine the extent of 13 racially polarized voting. 14 Q. And if they viewed registration data, 15 that would have to be loaded on the machine as 16 well, correct? 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. I want you to look at the second bullet 19 for a moment. 20 how ACS estimates do not, quote, align in time 21 with decennial census data. 22 And the second bullet talks about When you say "align in time," do you mean Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 381 1 the time it was collected or the time it was 2 reported? 3 A. I believe it could mean either one. 4 Q. All right. And is it your position that 5 if citizenship data were collected in the hard 6 count on the short form, that that data would 7 align in time with the total population data 8 simply because it's collected at the same time? 9 10 11 A. I would imagine it would be collected and reported at the same time, so yes. Q. All right. And I want to ask you about 12 at-large challenges. Are you familiar with 13 challenges under Section 2 to at-large 14 jurisdictions? 15 A. Yes, I am. 16 Q. If DOJ brought a Section 2 case 17 challenging an at-large district, say, in 2022, 18 and the citizenship question was on the short 19 form, the two data sets would align in time? 20 21 22 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for a hypothetical. THE WITNESS: Yeah, that does call for a Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 382 1 hypothetical. 2 in the lawsuit, whether the question is going to 3 remain on the census, and what evidence DOJ or any 4 other plaintiff would want to educe in support of 5 a Section 2 claim in the year 2022, which is four 6 years from now. 7 BY MS. HULETT: 8 9 Q. I'm not sure what's going to happen If the citizenship data were only collected on the short form and you brought a case 10 in 2028, the data would be seven to eight years 11 old, correct? 12 A. If it were only collected on the short 13 form, that's correct. 14 requested. 15 Q. But that's not what we've Do you know whether the Census Bureau 16 intends to continue to collect citizenship data on 17 the ACS? 18 A. I don't know that. I believe they intend 19 to do -- my guess would be they intend to do that, 20 but that's a guess. 21 to need that data, as I mentioned before, and we 22 discussed before, the Section 203 issue. I believe that they continue Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 383 1 Q. Would it be a problem for voting rights 2 enforcement during the decade if you didn't have 3 current citizenship data from some other source 4 besides the short form? 5 6 7 A. That's a hypothetical question. I can't engage in that. Q. Really? If you bring a case in 2028 and 8 you had no other data but what was collected in 9 2020, would DOJ consider that to present an 10 obstacle to Section 2 challenge to an at-large 11 election? 12 13 MR. GARDNER: That does call for a hypothetical. 14 15 Objection. THE WITNESS: That is a hypothetical. BY MS. HULETT: 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. I will -- yes, and so I won't engage in a 18 hypothetical. 19 population purposes, the courts have held that 20 litigants in courts depend upon the census hard 21 count data for the entire decade. 22 Q. I will point out that, for total That's true. But to determine prong 1 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 384 1 and whether a community can constitute the 2 majority in a single-member district, the court 3 looks to CVAP data in general, correct? 4 A. Generally, that's true. 5 Q. And if the only source of that data was 6 the short form, it would have to be used, 7 regardless of how old it was, throughout the 8 decade, correct? 9 A. Again, that's hypothetical. 10 it's correct. 11 department has not asked for that. I suppose And I'll just reiterate that the 12 Q. I'm sorry? 13 A. The department has not -- that's not the 14 department's request, that the census data be the 15 only data. 16 Q. And you would also agree with me that 17 hard count census data are less probative the 18 further away from the census -- from the 19 collection date gets? 20 A. I don't know that for sure. There may be 21 instances where there aren't significant changes 22 in the population in a particular area or in the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 385 1 demographics of a population in a particular area. 2 So I don't know how to answer that. 3 Q. In the next-to-final paragraph on the 4 December 12th letter you write, "Accordingly, the 5 department formally requests that the Census 6 Bureau reinstate into the 2020 census a question 7 regarding citizenship. 8 Census Bureau release this new data regarding 9 citizenship at the same time as it releases the We also request that the 10 other redistricting data, by April 1st following 11 the 2020 census." 12 13 14 I was just wondering what you mean by other redistricting data. A. That would be the other PL94-171 data, 15 including the total population data. There are 16 certain states that have odd-year elections, like 17 the State of Virginia and the State of New Jersey. 18 Q. Oh. 19 A. And they have to engage in redistricting 20 very early on, right after the census results are 21 published. 22 publishes the Virginia results first because the In fact, I believe the Census Bureau Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 386 1 Virginia legislature meets for just a short period 2 of time every year. 3 an accommodation, publishes that data so that the 4 Virginia general assembly can redistrict in time 5 for its own fall State, House, and Senate 6 elections, which follow just a few months after 7 the plans are drawn because, by the state 8 Constitution, those occur in the odd-numbered 9 years rather than the even-numbered years. 10 Q. Okay. And so the Census Bureau, as I want to ask you just a few more 11 questions -- I know you talked about margin of 12 error and the third bullet with Mr. Ho. 13 ask you a legal question about this. 14 I want to Would you agree with me that what is 15 material to a court's determination of prong 1 is 16 how certain a demographer can be that the minority 17 population is sufficiently compact to constitute a 18 majority in the district? 19 20 21 22 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for a legal conclusion. THE WITNESS: legal conclusion. I think that calls for a I understand that you're Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 387 1 referring to prong 1 of the Gingles analysis, and 2 I think that that prong, and the cases construing 3 that prong, speak for themselves. 4 BY MS. HULETT: 5 Q. Would you agree that courts considering 6 that question consider the pertinent margin of 7 error to be the margin of error for CVAP for the 8 entire district? 9 10 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for a legal conclusion. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure that I can 12 agree or disagree with that as I sit here today. 13 I've not studied that issue recently. 14 BY MS. HULETT: 15 Q. Would you agree that the point estimates 16 for a district established to a 90 percent 17 confidence level is broadly recognized by courts 18 as sufficient to meet the prong 1 standard? 19 20 21 22 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for a legal conclusion. THE WITNESS: Again, I can't agree or disagree with that as I sit here today. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 388 1 BY MS. HULETT: 2 Q. Can you name any case in which a court 3 required for prong 1 purposes any level of 4 certainty about the margin of error in each and 5 every block of the district? 6 7 A. here today either way. 8 9 Again, I can't name such a case, as I sit Q. So is the point that's being expressed in this bullet is that citizenship data from the ACS 10 is not ideal for purposes of redistricting because 11 it's an estimate with a margin of error that 12 increases for smaller geographic areas? 13 A. I think the bullet speaks for itself. I 14 believe it does mention the margin of error and 15 the increase in that margin of error as the 16 geographic area decreases. 17 90 percent confidence interval associated with the 18 ACS. 19 Q. It also mentions the So when you're drawing a district and you 20 want to know what percent of adult citizens are of 21 a particular racial group, let's say, Latinos, and 22 when you look at the margin of error for the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 389 1 block-level estimates, they might be relatively 2 high; is that correct? 3 4 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for a hypothetical. 5 THE WITNESS: It calls for a hypothetical 6 and I don't know how to answer that question as I 7 sit here today. 8 BY MS. HULETT: 9 Q. Well, the hypothetical is in your bullet. 10 A. Really? 11 Q. Well, it says that ACS estimates are 12 reported at a 90 percent confidence level and the 13 margin of error increases as the sample size and 14 the geographic area decreases. 15 That, I guess, is a hypothetical, too. 16 I guess the point I'm trying to establish 17 with you is that as -- would you agree with me 18 that if the margin of error is high in the 19 block-level data, the margin of error is going to 20 get narrower and decrease as the geography 21 increases, so the block group-level data will have 22 a smaller margin of error, and the census tract Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 390 1 area will have an even smaller margin of error and 2 so on? 3 A. I'm not sure I totally follow your 4 question. What I will say is I disagree with your 5 characterization of the first sentence of the 6 bullet. 7 think it's a statement of fact that comes from the 8 Census Bureau's own glossary about the American 9 Community Survey. I don't think it's a hypothetical. I think it is a fact that the 10 ACS estimates are reported at a 90 percent 11 confidence interval. 12 hypothetical. 13 I I don't think that's a I also think it's a fact that the margin 14 of error of the ACS estimates increases as the 15 sample size and, therefore, the geographic area 16 decreases. 17 18 19 So those are not hypotheticals. Those are facts. In terms of what I understand your 20 question to be, if the error increases as the 21 sample size decreases -- I think you're asking me 22 if the error decreases as the sample size Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 391 1 increases; is that correct? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. That's my understanding. 4 Q. So when you combine block groups into 5 census tracts and then combine the census tracts 6 into districts, the margin of error shrinks each 7 time as the level of geography grows? 8 A. I'm not sure what you mean by combining 9 all of that. I do believe the ACS estimates are 10 reported at certain levels and, at a larger 11 geographic area, there is a smaller margin of 12 error assigned to the ACS estimate that at a 13 smaller geographic area. 14 Q. All right. Say at the level of a typical 15 congressional district, you would expect the 16 margin of error on CVAP to be much smaller than 17 the margin of error in each block in that 18 district, correct? 19 A. I would -- with respect to ACS estimates? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. Yes. 22 And I would expect that with respect to any statistical sampling or with Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 392 1 2 respect to hard count data. Q. And by the time you get to the size of a 3 congressional district, the margin of error is 4 likely to be quite small; isn't that correct? 5 A. I don't know what you mean by quite 6 small. I mean, you could certainly conceive of 7 districts or hypothetical districts where the 8 margin of error would still matter at the size of 9 a congressional district or a state house or state 10 senate district. 11 district that is close to the line of 50 percent, 12 but because of the margin of error associated with 13 the ACS data, you wouldn't know one way or the 14 other whether it's over 50 percent or slightly 15 under 50 percent. 16 You might have a hypothetical And that's what we are trying to avoid. 17 We are trying to get the best possible, most 18 accurate, more reliable, most comprehensive and 19 complete data that we possibly can because -- 20 there's been a lot of talk today about file cases. 21 We're trying to identify good cases for 22 investigation and filing. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 393 1 Q. So if you're looking to see what the 2 margin -- whether or not there's a majority CVAP 3 in a district, you're going to look at the margin 4 of error for the district? 5 A. That is correct. 6 Q. And you're going to see t how close it is 7 to 50 percent, is it a little over, is it a little 8 under, is it way over, is it way under, correct? 9 MR. GARDNER: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: That is correct, although 11 the block-level data, of course, aggregates up 12 into the district-level data. 13 want to know, if you moved a line or swapped a 14 precinct in and out of a district, how that would 15 affect the overall composition. 16 would need much more granular data than just the 17 district-wide data. 18 about once the district is already drawn. 19 talking about drawing the districts in the first 20 instance -- 21 BY MS. HULETT: 22 Q. And so you might And for that, you You're asking me a question I'm Right. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 394 1 A. -- which would require more granular data 2 than district-level data for a district that's not 3 yet been drawn. 4 Q. But each time you look to determine 5 whether prong 1 has been met or not, you are 6 looking at the CVAP of the entire district and the 7 margin of error for that number for the entire 8 district, correct? 9 A. Whether it has been met, that's perhaps 10 correct. Whether it can be met is a different 11 inquiry. Because whether it can be met requires 12 you to go in and draw the districts and also to 13 experiment in the way that I've just laid out with 14 swapping precincts or census blocks in a way that 15 may change the overall composition of the 16 district. 17 Q. Right. And if you move blocks out and 18 move other blocks in, you're still looking at the 19 margin of error for the entire district, correct? 20 A. You would be. But you're trying to 21 identify which blocks to move in and out if you 22 want to try to get to a certain result at the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 395 1 district level. 2 Q. But if the relevant margin of error is 3 the district, why does it matter what any 4 individual block margin of error is? 5 A. Because -- again, because you may be 6 trying to draw a district and there may be more 7 than one way to draw a district in a particular 8 area. 9 that will inform how you draw the district in the And so if you have the block-level data, 10 first instance to get to some result at the 11 district level. 12 Q. Right. And you have block-level data. 13 Why does it matter what the margin of error is in 14 each little block that you're either putting in or 15 out of the district? 16 A. Because if you have a smaller -- the 17 smaller the margin of error at the block level, 18 the smaller the margin of error at the district 19 level because the district level is an aggregation 20 of those margins of error and those blocks. 21 22 Q. Has any demographer engaged in redistricting tasks, either since you've been in Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 396 1 DOJ or in your prior voting rights defense work, 2 ever told you that using ACS block-level data -- 3 ACS data hindered him or her from map drawing? 4 MR. GARDNER: Objection to the extent it 5 calls for information subject to deliberative 6 process privilege. 7 To the extent you can answer that 8 question without divulging privileged information, 9 you may do so. 10 Otherwise, I instruct you not to answer. 11 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 12 instruction, I can't answer the question. 13 BY MS. HULETT: 14 Q. Has any demographer outside -- in your 15 work outside of the DOJ ever told you that using 16 ACS data hindered him or her in any way from 17 drawing or analyzing a map? 18 A. Outside of -- from DOJ? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. Prior to my time at DOJ? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. I don't recall one way or the other. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 I Page 397 1 do recall having conversations with demographers 2 about the ACS data and the inconvenience of using 3 that data in addition to the census data. 4 Q. What do you mean by inconvenience? 5 A. Because it's a separate data set and it's 6 a data set that requires further estimates and 7 extrapolations down to the block level. 8 9 MR. GARDNER: Denise, before we mark another exhibit, we've been going over an hour. 10 Can we take a break? 11 MS. HULETT: 12 MR. GARDNER: 13 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 14 unit number 6. 15 We are off the record. Sure. Thank you. This concludes media The time on the video is 5:33 p.m. 16 (A recess was taken.) 17 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 18 number 7. 19 are on the record. 20 BY MS. HULETT: 21 22 Q. This begins media unit The time on the video is 5:46 p.m. Okay. I'm going to hand you now Exhibit 43. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 We Page 398 1 MR. GARDNER: 2 MS. HULETT: 3 No, this is 42. I think 42, right? Really? Oh, you're right. No, it's not. 4 (Discussion off the record.) 5 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 42 marked for 6 identification and attached to the 7 transcript.) 8 9 BY MS. HULETT: Q. Let me hand you first Exhibit 42. This 10 appears to be an e-mail introduction by Arthur 11 Gary, June 11th, 2018 -- an e-mail introduction by 12 Arthur Gary to put Jay Town from the U.S. 13 Attorney's Office in the Northern District of 14 Alabama in touch with you; is that correct? 15 A. That appears to be correct. 16 Q. Do you recall this e-mail exchange? 17 A. I don't. 18 Q. Do you recall whether Jay Town called you 19 20 Yes. on June 11th, as he indicated that he would? A. I do not recall whether he called me on 21 June 11th. I have spoken to Mr. Town on several 22 occasions. And I do not recall whether one of Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 399 1 2 3 4 those occasions occurred on June 11th. Q. Do you remember the topic of the conversation with Jay Town? A. I've had several conversations with him 5 on several topics related to Department of Justice 6 matters. 7 8 Q. census -- quote, usual residence rule, unquote. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 The subject of this particular e-mail is Do you recall a conversation with him about the usual residence rule? A. I do not recall a conversation on that topic. Q. What is your understanding of what the usual residence rule is? A. I do not have an understanding of what that rule is. Q. Are you aware that, on May 21st, 2018, 18 the State of Alabama sued the Department of 19 Commerce seeking a declaratory judgment that the 20 residence rule is unlawful? 21 22 A. I am aware that the State of Alabama filed a lawsuit against the Department of Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 400 1 Commerce. 2 the date of that filing was, nor am I sure what 3 issues in particular were presented in that 4 litigation. 5 Q. I'm not sure, as I sit here today, what Are you aware that they are seeking a 6 declaratory judgment declaring that any 7 congressional apportionment should exclude 8 undocumented immigrants from the population 9 figures utilized to apportion congressional seats? 10 A. I do believe that I'm aware of that. 11 Q. How did you become aware of that lawsuit? 12 A. I believe that lawsuit was reported in 13 the media, and I may have read a publicly 14 available article about it, is I believe how I 15 became aware of it. 16 17 Q. Art Town [sic]? 18 19 Do you recall discussing that case with A. Town? I'm sorry, do you mean Art Gary or Jay I'm not familiar with Art Town. 20 Q. No, I'm sorry. 21 A. Jay Town. 22 Q. When he called. Jay Town. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 401 1 2 3 4 A. I believe I discussed that case with Mr. Town, yes. Q. And what was the substance of that discussion? 5 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for 6 information subject to multiple privileges, 7 including deliberative process privilege, 8 potentially work product doctrine, as well as the 9 attorney-client privilege. 10 instruct the witness not to answer. 11 THE WITNESS: And consistent with that 12 instruction, I can't answer. 13 BY MS. HULETT: 14 And, therefore, I will Q. Okay. The December 12th, 2017, letter 15 that's Exhibit 17 in this deposition asks the 16 department to add a citizenship question to the 17 decennial census because it's needed for Voting 18 Rights Act enforcement. 19 Does the DOJ currently have a similar 20 need for hard count data regarding immigration 21 status? 22 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 402 1 Mischaracterizes the exhibit. 2 THE WITNESS: So first of all, I disagree 3 with your characterization of the exhibit. 4 letter does not say that that hard count data is 5 needed. 6 appropriate to facilitate enforcement of Section 2 7 of the Voting Rights Act. 8 BY MS. HULETT: 9 10 The I believe it says that that data would be Q. Does the DOJ have a need for hard count data regarding immigration status? 11 A. I am not aware of any such need, no. 12 Q. Does it have a use for hard count data 13 regarding immigration status? 14 15 16 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of any such Q. Do you believe the U.S. Department of use. 17 Commerce intends to defend that lawsuit in 18 Alabama? 19 MR. GARDNER: Objection. To the extent 20 it calls for information subject to privilege, I'd 21 instruct the witness not to answer. 22 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 403 1 instruction, I can't answer. 2 MS. HULETT: 3 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 43 marked for 4 identification and attached to the 5 transcript.) 6 7 Okay. BY MS. HULETT: Q. I'd like to give you Exhibit 43. 8 Exhibit 43 is a March 28th, 2018, e-mail exchange, 9 the subject of which is, Some additional 10 11 background on citizenship question. And at the top of the first page the 12 e-mail is from you. 13 appears to be responding to an e-mail, again, from 14 Mr. O'Malley. 15 accurate to say that the decision to add the 16 question to the short form balanced the commitment 17 to protecting the right to vote with the 18 commitment of protecting taxpayer dollars. 19 Reinstituting the long form questionnaire would 20 have come at great expense to the American 21 taxpayers?" 22 And the top of the e-mail And his e-mail says, "Safe and And your response, in part, is, "Check Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 404 1 Secretary Ross' decision memo. 2 out some other purposes of the census and 3 citizenship question, including to determine 4 federal funding for certain programs. 5 right, I think we can say that the goal is to 6 protect voting rights, efficiently allocate 7 government funding, and effectively implement 8 government programs. 9 government." 10 I think it laid If that's We can pitch this as good What did you mean by "pitch this"? 11 A. So again, Mr. O'Malley at the time was 12 employed in the Office of Public Affairs. 13 haven't read through this whole e-mail chain. 14 will say it looks like some of these e-mails were 15 sent on March 27th, 2018, and not just March 28th, 16 2018. 17 I I And I believe what I was saying was that 18 if it were correct that Secretary Ross had 19 identified other reasons and bases for 20 reinstituting and reinstating the citizenship 21 question on the census questionnaire, that 22 Mr. O'Malley could identify those in response to Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 405 1 questions from members of the media. 2 And so the -- I believe -- you asked me 3 about the pitch language. 4 suggestion of the message that could be shared if, 5 as I inevitably anticipated, members of the press 6 or the media contacted Mr. O'Malley or the Office 7 of Public Affairs to understand more about 8 Secretary Ross' decision. 9 Q. Okay. I believe it was a Did you determine that asking a 10 citizenship question on the short form would more 11 efficiently allocate government funding? 12 A. I did not determine that. Again, I think 13 the e-mail explains that I had, at the time, a 14 memory that Secretary Ross had mentioned that in 15 his decision memo. 16 know whether that memory was accurate or not. 17 I suggested that Mr. O'Malley review that memo and 18 see if there were any other information that could 19 be gleaned from it. 20 Q. As I sit here today, I don't And And these efficiently allocate government 21 funding and effectively implement government 22 programs did not end up in your -- the Department Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 406 1 2 of Justice December letter, correct, either? A. Well, I would say that effectively 3 implementing government programs could include the 4 effective enforcement of Section 2 of the Voting 5 Rights Act. 6 referred to government funding, per se, but again, 7 allocating government funding and wisely and 8 efficiently expanding those resources on Section 2 9 enforcement could fall into that description in a 10 broad sense. 11 Q. I don't believe that anything Could you look briefly at the top of 12 page 2, an e-mail that you wrote at 8:16 in the 13 morning? 14 to a question from Mr. O'Malley. 15 DOJ could prosecute someone for lying about their 16 status -- their citizenship status -- on the 17 census. 18 19 And I think, again, you were responding But you say that Are you aware of any such prosecutions in the past? 20 A. No, I am not. 21 Q. Are you aware of any discussions at DOJ 22 that raise that possibility in the future? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 407 1 MR. GARDNER: Objection to the extent it 2 calls for information subject to law enforcement 3 privilege as well as deliberative process 4 privilege. 5 To the extent you can answer that 6 question without divulging privileged information, 7 you may do so. 8 answer. 9 Otherwise, I instruct you not to THE WITNESS: 10 such conversations. 11 BY MS. HULETT: 12 Q. Okay. No, I'm not aware of any But you believe that an individual 13 answer to a citizenship question, if it was a lie, 14 could be prosecuted. 15 A. I believe what I said at the time is 16 that, as I understood the law -- I had not studied 17 the law and was trying to suggest to Mr. O'Malley 18 that he could look into that issue further. 19 this relates to the issue I discussed with Mr. Ho 20 earlier today with respect to title 9 -- title 13 21 of the United States code. 22 understanding that individuals' responses to the And But it is my Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 408 1 census questionnaire have certain privacy 2 protections embedded in federal law, and that 3 there may be exceptions that allow the sharing of 4 those responses in certain circumstances. 5 I've said, I have not studied the issue, so I 6 don't know it precisely. 7 But as I understand that there is somewhere in 8 the federal code some kind of prohibition on 9 answering a census questionnaire falsely. 10 Q. So that would be one of the circumstances 11 under which an answer to a citizenship question 12 would not be immune to disclosure to law 13 enforcement, then? 14 A. That, I actually don't know because, as I 15 said, I haven't studied the statute and I don't 16 know exactly what those exceptions are. 17 I don't know how anyone who had access to 18 individual answers on the census questionnaire, 19 such as a Census Bureau employee, knows whether or 20 not the answer is true or false. 21 how they go about figuring that out. 22 Moreover, So I don't know And as I said, I'm not aware of any Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 409 1 prosecutions on that basis, at least at all 2 recently. 3 once that suggested there might have been one 4 decades ago, but I don't know that for sure. 5 Q. And I think I might have read something And just a few final questions. Have you 6 ever communicated in any way -- by phone, in 7 person, by e-mail, text -- have you ever 8 communicated about the citizenship question with 9 Kris Kobach? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Have you ever communicated in any of 12 those ways about the citizenship question with 13 Steve Bannon? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Have you ever communicated in any of 16 those ways about the citizenship question with 17 Stephen Miller? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Have you ever communicated with anyone at 20 the White House about the citizenship question? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Who? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 410 1 A. I communicated with John Zadrozny. 2 Q. And who is he? 3 A. Z-a-d-r-o-z-n-y, I believe, is how he 4 spells his last name. And at the time, he was 5 working, I believe, for the Domestic Policy 6 Council. 7 Q. And when did you communicate with him? 8 A. I believe it was sometime in October of 10 Q. Who initiated the contact? 11 A. I don't recall. 9 2017. What I recall about it 12 is that I participated in a conference call on the 13 issue on which Mr. Zadrozny -- in which 14 Mr. Zadrozny also participated. 15 16 Q. Conference call on the issue of adding the citizenship question? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. In October of 2017? 19 A. I believe it was October of 2017. 20 Q. Who else was on that conference call? 21 A. I can recall that other people from the 22 Department of Justice were on the call. Rachael Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 411 1 Tucker, who we've discussed previously, and Gene 2 Hamilton I believe was on the call. 3 have been others, but I can't remember 4 specifically who they were. 5 Q. And there may Other than the addition of the 6 citizenship question to the census, was that the 7 only topic -- 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. -- discussed in the call? 10 A. Yes, it was. 11 Q. And were there people from the Department 12 13 14 15 of Commerce on that call? A. No, there were not. Or at least not to my knowledge. Q. So to your knowledge, it was one White 16 House official, and the rest of you were all from 17 the Department of Justice? 18 19 A. To the best of my knowledge and recollection, yes. 20 Q. And who set up this conference call? 21 A. I don't recall who set it up. 22 I know it wasn't me. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 412 1 2 Q. Do you know at whose request the conference call happened? 3 A. I do not recall that. 4 Q. And did you know before the call why you 5 were invited? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And why were you invited? 8 A. Because I was involved in this issue on 9 behalf of the Department of Justice. 10 11 Q. you say his name again? 12 13 A. I think it's Zadrozny, but I don't know for sure. 14 15 And did the -- John -- I'm sorry, how do Q. Zadrozny. Do you remember what he contributed to that conference call? 16 MR. GARDNER: Objection. That question 17 calls for the disclosure of information subject to 18 executive privilege. 19 To the extent you can answer that 20 question without divulging such information, you 21 may. 22 Otherwise, I instruct you not to answer. THE WITNESS: Consistent with that Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 413 1 instruction, I can't answer. 2 BY MS. HULETT: 3 Q. Do you remember whether he was in favor 4 of or opposed to the addition of the citizenship 5 question? 6 7 MR. GARDNER: THE WITNESS: Consistent with that instruction, I can't answer. 10 11 MS. HULETT: Can we take just a very quick break? 12 MR. GARDNER: 13 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 14 record. Absolutely. We're going off the The time on the video is 6:03 p.m. 15 (Discussion off the record.) 16 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 17 Same instruction. 8 9 Same objection. record. 18 We are back on the The time on the video is 6:03 p.m. MS. HULETT: We're back on the record 19 just for me to tell you that I'm done and turning 20 it over to Mr. Greenbaum. 21 22 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: record. We are going off the The time on the video is 6:04 p.m. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 414 1 (Discussion off the record.) 2 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 3 record. The time on the video is 6:08 p.m. 4 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR 5 6 7 We are back on the THE CITY OF SAN JOSE AND BAJI BY MR. GREENBAUM: Q. Good evening, Mr. Gore. John Greenbaum. 8 I reintroduced myself to you a couple of minutes 9 ago, and now I'm going to be the one asking the 10 questions. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. Several hours ago at the beginning of the 13 deposition you mentioned that you reviewed a 14 report by Pam Karlan; is that correct? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. And do you know who Ms. Karlan is? 17 A. I don't know her personally and I've 18 never met Ms. Karlan to my knowledge. I 19 understand that she has been and may still be 20 affiliated with Stanford University and was 21 previously a deputy assistant attorney general in 22 the civil rights division at the United States Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 415 1 Department of Justice. 2 3 Q. And are you familiar at all with her background in terms of voting rights issues? 4 A. Only with -- only from the report that I 5 read. 6 litigating voting rights cases in the past and has 7 published on that issue. 8 9 I understand that she has been involved in Q. In terms of her report, how much time did you spend reading her report? 10 A. 11 recall. 12 reading it, but it would have been less than half 13 an hour. 14 exactly. 15 Q. It was a fairly short report, as I And I can't remember how long I spent Maybe half an hour. I don't recall And at the time you read the report, was 16 there anything in the report that you recall 17 disagreeing with? 18 A. There are a couple of things in the 19 report that I think were inaccurate. I don't have 20 the report in front of me, so I can't speak to 21 that. 22 read it and let you know what I think. But if you provide me a copy, I'm happy to Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 416 1 Q. 2 3 All right. We'll do that. MR. GREENBAUM: I'm going to mark it as Exhibit 44. 4 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 44 marked for 5 identification and attached to the 6 transcript.) 7 BY MR. GREENBAUM: 8 Q. Mr. Gore, do you recognize Exhibit 44? 9 A. Yes. This appears to be the report -- a 10 copy of the report from Pam Karlan that I reviewed 11 and that we were just discussing. 12 Q. Okay. In looking at it, do you recall, 13 when you read it the last time, what you thought 14 was inaccurate? 15 A. Let me review it. 16 Q. All right. 17 Because of the amount of time that I have -- 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. -- I'm not going to spend my time having 20 you review the report, so I'm going to ask you 21 about a couple of statements -- 22 A. Sure. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 417 1 Q. 2 -- in the report. If you'd move to page 7 -- and in the 3 second paragraph under the unsuccessful Section 2 4 suits are not due to problems with existing data, 5 there's a sentence that says, "It is striking that 6 the Gary letter fails to identify even a single 7 case where inadequate citizenship data" -- 8 A. I apologize. 9 you on? 10 Q. Oh, sorry. 11 A. 7. 12 Q. If you go to page 7 -- 13 A. Yeah -- oh, I see. 14 bottom. 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. All right. 17 Q. "It is striking that the Gary letter Okay. I'm sorry, which page are Page 7. I'm there. Second from the I apologize. Go ahead. 18 fails to identify even a single case where 19 inadequate citizenship data caused plaintiffs to 20 lose." 21 22 That sentence. A. Yes. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 418 1 Q. Do you agree, disagree, or have no 2 opinion with -- with respect to what Professor 3 Karlan says in that sentence? 4 A. I disagree that it's striking. I do 5 believe the Gary letter does not identify a case 6 where inadequate citizenship data caused 7 plaintiffs to lose. 8 question because we also have to identify cases to 9 bring, and of course, no plaintiff files a case 10 I also think that's the wrong and brings a case unless they think they can win. 11 So if a plaintiff thought -- I imagine if 12 a plaintiff thought that it had inadequate 13 citizenship data, it just wouldn't file the 14 lawsuit; it would try to find better data or 15 improve its evidence before going to court. 16 don't know anybody who files a lawsuit in court 17 when there's some big question about the adequacy 18 of their evidence. 19 Q. I And in the case of DOJ, would it be fair 20 to say that DOJ does not file marginal cases in 21 terms of Section 2 cases? 22 MR. GARDNER: Objection to the extent it Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 419 1 calls for information subject to deliberative 2 process privilege. 3 To the extent you can answer that 4 question without divulging such information, you 5 may do so. 6 answer. 7 Otherwise, I instruct you not to THE WITNESS: When the Department of 8 Justice files a case, at least in my experience, 9 it believes it can win the case. 10 11 BY MR. GREENBAUM: Q. So in your experience -- and you wouldn't 12 approve a case that you thought was marginal, 13 correct? 14 15 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. instruction. 16 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 17 instruction, I can't answer. 18 BY MR. GREENBAUM: 19 Same Q. Can you recall an instance where the 20 Department of Justice filed a Section 2 lawsuit 21 where there was considerable doubt as to whether 22 the first Gingles precondition could be met? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 420 1 2 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. instruction. 3 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 4 instruction, I can't answer. 5 BY MR. GREENBAUM: 6 Same Q. All right. So I want to now move to a 7 sentence in the last paragraph of that same 8 page 7, and it's the sentence that starts with, 9 "The problem." "The problem the Gary letter 10 purports to identify -- that the Department of 11 Justice lacks sufficient data to bring Section 2 12 cases -- would only arise where an actual 13 enumeration would show the possibility of majority 14 minority CVAP district, but survey-provided 15 estimates cannot show such a possibility." 16 17 18 Agree, disagree, have no opinion with that sentence? A. I -- again, I disagree, because I don't 19 believe that that is the, quote/unquote, problem 20 the Gary letter purports to identify. 21 what the Gary letter is saying is that the 22 Department of Justice wants to have the most I believe Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 421 1 complete, accurate, and reliable data possible. 2 And it's not presenting an either/or between 3 census data and ACS data or some other form of 4 data. 5 There are a couple of places, now that 6 I've looked at this, where I do think Professor 7 Karlan misstates -- mischaracterizes the Gary 8 letter. 9 Q. Okay. Do you want to point those out? 10 A. Sure. I'd be happy to. 11 Page 3. If you look at the very top of 12 the page under the heading "Background 13 assumptions," the first paragraph says, "When I 14 refer to case law in this report, I do so for two 15 reasons: 16 have assumed apply to cases litigated under 17 Section 2; and, two, to provide real-world 18 illustrations of why the Gary letter is wrong to 19 argue that citizenship data from decennial census 20 questionnaires are critical to Section 2 21 enforcement." 22 One, to describe the standards that I Now, that's a mischaracterization of the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 422 1 Gary letter, because that's not what it says. 2 Q. Does the Gary letter say that citizenship 3 data provided from decennial census questionnaires 4 is critical to Section 2 enforcement? 5 A. I think the Gary letter speaks for 6 itself, and I think there's no dispute that 7 citizenship data is crucial -- accurate 8 citizenship data is crucial to carrying out the 9 Department of Justice's Section 2 enforcement 10 mission. 11 Q. Do you -- are you of the view that that 12 citizenship data needs to be taken from decennial 13 census questionnaires? 14 15 A. And by "you," are you referring to the Department of Justice or me personally? 16 Q. I'm referring to you, personally. 17 A. No. 18 Q. Okay. All right. And then is there 19 anything else in the Karlan report that you would 20 characterize as inaccurate? 21 22 A. mind. There are a couple of things that come to Again, if I had time to read it all, I Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 423 1 would read it all and give you a complete list. 2 But I can give you a partial list based on having 3 flipped through it just now. 4 Q. And based on your prior reading. 5 A. And based on my prior reading. 6 you. Thank That's fair. 7 If you look on page 4 -- a couple of 8 things. First of all, Ms. Karlan is referring to 9 her time at the Department of Justice. I would 10 just point out that during her time at the 11 Department of Justice, which I believe fell in the 12 time frame of around 2014 -- but I could be off on 13 those years -- I don't think there were very many 14 Gingles cases being litigated by the voting 15 section. 16 conversations or participate in conversations 17 about certain issues, and I just don't know how 18 many conversations like that would have happened, 19 given the -- the division's docket at the time. 20 21 22 Q. So she says she didn't hear Are you familiar with the Texas redistricting case? A. Yes, I am. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 424 1 Q. Were you aware that the Department of 2 Justice was litigating the Texas redistricting 3 case during the time Ms. Karlan was at DOJ? 4 A. That could be right. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. And then she says, for example, at the 7 bottom of page 4, "Census data are used in 8 analyzing all three Gingles preconditions, but 9 information about citizenship is most important to 10 the first Gingles precondition. The other two 11 preconditions, which together indicate the level 12 of racial block voting or racial polarization 13 within the relevant jurisdiction, can be proven 14 without the need for citizenship data." 15 There are cases in which the two 16 preconditions related to racially polarized voting 17 are proven with respect to citizenship data. 18 can be done, for example, when the racial 19 polarized voting analysis is looking at registered 20 voting and you use CVAP data to understand the 21 levels of voter registration and turnout by a 22 particular racial group and its citizenship Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 That Page 425 1 composition. 2 So it's true that they can be -- there 3 are cases, I believe, where they can be, but there 4 are cases where -- and the Department of Justice 5 currently has such a case, the United States 6 versus Eastpointe case. 7 part to prove the second and third Gingles 8 preconditions. 9 10 Q. We are using CVAP data in And the CVAP data are you using -- is that based on ACS? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. I was just going to point out another, 14 And -- but go ahead. 15 Q. You can point out the other case. 16 A. No. 17 I was going to point out another issue in -- 18 Q. Oh, I wanted to -- 19 A. -- Professor Karlan's report. 20 Q. I actually wanted to ask you a question 21 22 about this particular issue. A. Okay. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 426 1 Q. Going back to Exhibit 17 -- 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. -- the Gary letter. In the Gary letter, 4 when talking about how the citizenship data is 5 critical to the department's enforcement of 6 Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act, was that only 7 with reference to Gingles 1 or was it reference to 8 any other aspect of Section 2 enforcement? 9 A. Well, I believe the letter speaks for 10 itself. Is there a particular sentence you're 11 referring to? 12 13 Q. Sure. I'm just -- I'm referring to -- in the first paragraph -- 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. -- at the end, it says that, "As 16 demonstrated below, the decennial census 17 questionnaire is the most appropriate vehicle for 18 collecting that data and reinstating a question on 19 citizenship will best enable the department to 20 protect all American citizens' voting rights under 21 Section 2." 22 A. Well, as I've just laid out, we do use Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 427 1 citizenship data at all three steps of the Gingles 2 analysis. 3 of what it talks about. 4 Q. The letter speaks for itself in terms And -- Does the letter in any place mention any 5 other aspect of Section 2 enforcement other than 6 Gingles 1? 7 A. I don't believe that it does, but I don't 8 know -- again, I haven't gone back and reviewed 9 all these cases recently, so I don't know what 10 they do or do not say or may or may not say with 11 respect to the use of citizenship data, Gingles 12 steps 2 and 3. 13 Q. You don't see anything in the letter, 14 correct, that references any aspect of how this 15 data is relevant to Section 2 enforcement other 16 than with respect to Gingles 1, correct? 17 18 19 A. I don't see anything like that. That's correct. Q. And isn't it the case that the 20 department, in making a request to the Census 21 Bureau about the need for -- the need for having a 22 citizenship question on the census and why it's Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 428 1 critical for Section 2 enforcement, isn't it the 2 case that the department was going to put forward 3 its best arguments? 4 A. I think the department put forward 5 arguments it strongly believed in and that this 6 was the argument that the department put forward. 7 Q. And in your view, are -- are these the 8 best arguments that the department could put 9 forward? 10 A. My view when? 11 Q. At the time. 12 MR. GARDNER: As of now or at the time? Objection to the extent 13 that that calls for the disclosure of information 14 subject to deliberative process privilege. 15 To the extent you can answer the question 16 without divulging that information, you way. 17 Otherwise, I instruct you not to answer. 18 THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 19 instruction, I can't answer. 20 BY MR. GREENBAUM: 21 Q. All right. How about today? 22 A. I agree with the letter. I think the Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 429 1 letter represents the position of the department, 2 and I agree with it. 3 Q. 4 Okay. MR. GARDNER: Did you want him to finish 5 his answer, by the way -- 6 MR. HO: 7 MR. GARDNER: 8 9 10 11 Yes. -- about -- BY MR. GREENBAUM: Q. Is there anything else in Ms. Karlan's report that you find is inaccurate? A. On page 5, I will mention one thing. 12 Second full paragraph down: 13 almost never important in cases involving 14 African-American, American Indian, or Alaskan 15 Native plaintiffs." 16 "Citizenship data is I'm not quite sure what she means by 17 "almost never." 18 department is using CVAP data in the United States 19 versus Eastpointe case, which is a case involving 20 African-American voters. 21 22 Q. But I will point out that the Do you recall a case in which anybody bringing a case on behalf of African-American, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 430 1 American Indian or Alaska Native voters lost on 2 Gingles 1 based on a -- because they couldn't meet 3 the CVAP threshold, but they could meet the VAP 4 threshold? 5 6 MR. GARDNER: Objection. 7 Objection. Form. Compound. THE WITNESS: I am not -- as I understand 8 your question, I'm not aware of any such filed 9 case. 10 11 BY MR. GREENBAUM: Q. And you are aware of cases where this 12 happened with respect to Hispanic or Latino 13 voters, correct? 14 A. I believe that I am, yes. 15 Q. Okay. 16 So there are differences when it comes to Gingles 1 in terms of -- strike that. 17 Anything else about -- in your 18 recollection, about the Karlan report that is 19 inaccurate in your view? 20 A. One thing I'll point out -- and, again, I 21 haven't had time to review this letter in its 22 entirety. I will say that the -- on page 11, Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 431 1 other problems with the Gary letter -- "There are 2 problems with the Gary letter beyond its claim 3 regarding the need for additional citizenship 4 information. 5 problematic to use different data sets to 6 determine compliance with the Constitution's 7 one-person/one-vote requirement and to analyze 8 Section 2 claims. 9 one-person/one-vote is a common way of referring 10 to the requirement that jurisdictions draw equal 11 populous districts, that requirement does not 12 focus at all on election results or the ability of 13 groups of citizens to elect representatives of 14 their choice. 15 using an actual enumeration to determine whether 16 jurisdictions have satisfied the equal populous 17 districting requirement and using sophisticated 18 estimation techniques to determine whether it is 19 possible to create districts where a minority 20 group can be electorally successful." 21 22 The Gary letter asserts that it is Not so. Although So there is nothing anomalous about Professor Karlan is ignoring the task of map drawers. And as I've testified earlier, map Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 432 1 drawers' lives and jobs would be less complicated 2 if they didn't have to use two data sets. 3 that's not something that she mentions. 4 mentioned in the Gary letter, and she doesn't 5 mention it here when she's discussing this topic. 6 Q. And It is So going to that, isn't it also the case 7 that map drawers have had to use an actual 8 enumeration for -- to determine total population 9 of districts and sampling in terms of to estimate 10 the percentage of citizen voting age population of 11 the district? 12 A. I believe, as I understand your question, 13 that's correct. If I could just restate -- I 14 believe what you asked me is that map drawers use 15 the hard count data from the census to determine 16 equal population of one-person/one-vote, and 17 estimates from some other source, which may or may 18 not be the ACS, to determine CVAP level for 19 purposes of complying with Section 2. Is that -- 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. Yes, that's my understanding. 22 Q. And so her point that there's nothing Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 433 1 anomalous about using an actual enumeration to 2 determine whether jurisdictions have satisfied the 3 equal populous districting requirement and using 4 estimation techniques to determine whether it's 5 possible to create districts where a minority 6 group can be electorally successful is one that 7 you would agree with? 8 9 A. I would agree that, currently, map drawers do use that. She doesn't refer to map 10 drawers. 11 the task for map drawers, as well as litigants and 12 courts, would be simplified if all data were 13 available in a single data set. 14 15 Q. But the Gary letter does mention that Where specifically in the Gary letter are map drawers referenced? 16 A. It's in the first bullet point. I think 17 it would be the individuals who, on behalf -- are 18 mentioned in the phrase "jurisdictions conducting 19 redistricting." 20 redistricting, they use map drawers to draw the 21 maps. 22 Q. When jurisdictions conduct So you're including map drawers within Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 434 1 2 the term "jurisdictions"? A. I am not familiar with any redistricting 3 plan that's ever been drawn by someone who wasn't 4 a map drawer, so yes. 5 Q. All right. 6 Have you -- strike that. Has any map drawer, outside of somebody 7 employed by the federal government, ever 8 communicated to you that it would be better if the 9 citizenship data were in the same data set as the 10 total population data? 11 MR. GARDNER: 12 question again? 13 clause. Could you re-ask that I'm sorry. I missed the first 14 MR. GREENBAUM: Can you read it back? 15 (The reporter read the record as 16 requested.) 17 THE WITNESS: I don't know who you mean 18 by "you." If you mean the Department of Justice, 19 I can't answer that question because I don't know 20 what conversations have happened between map 21 drawers outside of the federal government and 22 members of the Department of Justice. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 435 1 BY MR. GREENBAUM: 2 Q. I mean you, John Gore. 3 A. Me, personally? 4 I don't believe I've ever had any such conversation that I can recall. 5 Q. At the time that the Gary letter was 6 issued on December 12th, did you know what the 7 position of the Census Bureau was that -- 8 regarding whether citizenship data would be more 9 accurate if there was a citizenship question on 10 the census? 11 12 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I have a basis 14 to answer that question. 15 BY MR. GREENBAUM: 16 Q. I'm asking you whether you knew, yes or 18 A. Whether I knew what? 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. Sorry, can you just rephrase the 17 21 22 no. I'll -- question? Q. -- go back -- I will state the question Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 436 1 again. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. And I'm asking whether you knew one way 4 or another in asking this question. Okay? 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. At the time the Gary letter was issued on 7 December the 12th, did you know what the position 8 was -- of the Census Bureau was regarding whether 9 citizenship data would be more accurate if there 10 was a citizenship question on the census? 11 MR. GARDNER: Same objection. 12 THE WITNESS: What's the objection? 13 MR. GARDNER: Assumes facts not in THE WITNESS: I did not know. 14 evidence. 15 16 17 BY MR. GREENBAUM: Q. Okay. And isn't it true that DOJ doesn't 18 have jurisdiction to bring racial or partisan 19 gerrymandering claims? 20 A. That is correct. Those claims, to the 21 extent they are brought, are brought under the 22 Constitution, and the Department of Justice does Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 437 1 not have authority or standing to assert such 2 constitutional claims. 3 has, in the past, gotten involved in racial 4 gerrymandering claims, either as an intervener or 5 as an amicus because frequently those claims 6 implicate districts that were drawn or preserved 7 to comply with Section 2 or Section 5 of the 8 Voting Rights Act, which the Department of Justice 9 does enforce. 10 Q. The Department of Justice So a citizenship question would not help 11 DOJ bring racial or partisan gerrymandering claims 12 because DOJ doesn't have jurisdiction to bring 13 them in the first place, correct? 14 A. That's correct, although it would 15 facilitate DOJ's participation in such cases if it 16 chose to participate for -- because, again, 17 particularly, racial gerrymandering cases can 18 implicate Section 2 and Section 5 districts where 19 CVAP data is not necessary. 20 Q. Prior to December 12th, 2017, did you 21 have any communication with anybody who was not a 22 federal employee at the time about having a Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 438 1 citizenship question on the census? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Who? 4 A. I had a conversation with a gentleman 5 named Mark Neuman, who I believe was not a federal 6 employee at the time. 7 Q. Who is Mark Neuman? 8 A. I understand Mark Neuman to be a former 9 employee of the Census Bureau or the Department of 10 Commerce -- I'm not sure which one. 11 understood that he was advising the Department of 12 Commerce and the Census Bureau with respect to 13 this issue. 14 15 16 Q. And I And what was the substance of your conversation with Mr. Neuman? MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for 17 information subject to deliberative process 18 privilege. 19 20 I instruct the witness not to answer. THE WITNESS: Consistent with that instruction, I can't answer. 21 22 BY MR. GREENBAUM: Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 439 1 Q. Other than Mr. Neuman, did you have a 2 conversation with anybody else -- or a 3 communication with anybody else who was not an 4 employee of the federal government about having a 5 citizenship question on the census? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did you communicate with anybody employed 8 by the Census Bureau about the issue of putting a 9 citizenship question on the census prior to 10 December 12th, 2017? 11 A. No, I don't believe so. 12 Q. Do you know anybody at DOJ who did? 13 A. I don't know one way or the other. 14 Q. Did DOJ consider privacy issues related 15 to revealing a person's citizenship data or -- 16 strike that. 17 Prior to the issuance of the 18 December 12th letter, did you, John Gore, consider 19 privacy issues related to revealing a person's 20 citizenship status if citizenship data was taken 21 from -- was at the individual level or at the 22 block level on the census? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 440 1 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for 2 information subject to deliberative process 3 privilege. 4 I instruct the witness not to answer. THE WITNESS: Consistent with that 5 instruction, I can't answer. 6 BY MR. GREENBAUM: 7 Q. Okay. Mr. Ho earlier showed you a map 8 that had the number of people in particular census 9 blocks in it. Do you recall that? 10 A. I do recall that. 11 Q. And some of those blocks had one person 12 in the census block, correct? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. And if the Census Bureau were providing 15 census data at the block level, isn't it true 16 that, for those census blocks that have one 17 person, that that person's answer to the census 18 question regarding citizenship would be revealed 19 in the data itself? 20 21 22 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Calls for a hypothetical. THE WITNESS: Again, I believe I had this Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 441 1 discussion with Mr. Ho earlier. 2 answer to that question. 3 question. 4 I don't know the It's a hypothetical Mr. Ho also talked about data masking 5 techniques that the Census Bureau might use. 6 don't know how those would implicate the answer to 7 the question. 8 is planning to report the results of this data or 9 this question from the questionnaire to the 10 I I don't know how the Census Bureau Department of Justice. 11 There's a lot I don't know, so I can't 12 take a view on that and I, unfortunately, can't 13 answer your question. 14 BY MR. GREENBAUM: 15 Q. But if it were the case that the Census 16 Bureau was providing the block-specific -- 17 accurate block-specific data for blocks that have 18 one person in it, that it would reveal the 19 citizenship status as reported by that person? 20 A. Again, I've answered this question. 21 don't think I can add anything to my answer. 22 a hypothetical. I don't know, again, how that Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 I It's Page 442 1 data is going to be reported and whether your 2 definition of accurate includes any data masking 3 techniques that Mr. Ho referred to earlier. 4 To the extent it would reveal that 5 information, it would also reveal information 6 responsive to the other questions on the census, 7 which include questions about sex, race, Hispanic 8 origin, and sexual orientation. 9 questions were all -- the results of those And if those 10 questions were also divulged, that information, I 11 guess, would be available on parity with the 12 response to the citizenship question. 13 Q. You may have answered this earlier, but 14 I'm going to ask it again. 15 Department of Justice would request that the 16 Census Bureau add a citizenship question to the 17 census? 18 A. 19 20 21 22 Who decided that the I believe I've answered that earlier, and it was the attorney general. Q. Okay. And do you recall the date in which the attorney general made that decision? A. I don't know exactly when he, in his own Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 443 1 mind, may have made that decision. The decision 2 became final when the letter was sent on 3 December 12th. 4 Q. When was it communicated to you? 5 A. As I testified before, I don't remember 6 the exact date. 7 8 I believe it was December 12th. MR. GARDNER: your question. 9 I don't want to interrupt How much time do we have left? VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 10 MR. GARDNER: 11 MR. GREENBAUM: Ten minutes. Ten minutes? Thank you. I want to mark as 12 Exhibit 45 documents Bates stamped -- well, the 13 first Bates stamp is DOJ 28385. 14 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 45 marked for 15 identification and attached to the 16 transcript.) 17 BY MR. GREENBAUM: 18 Q. Mr. Gore, do you recognize Exhibit 45? 19 A. I'm not sure I recognize it, no. 20 Q. Would it be fair to say that Exhibit 45 21 shows a series of e-mails between you and Chris 22 Herren, chief of the voting section. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 444 1 2 3 A. It appears to. And Ben Aguinaga is also copied on some of those e-mails. Q. And do the e-mails reflect that you asked 4 Mr. Herren for comments and edits to the draft 5 letter that was a -- that was the first draft that 6 you discussed this morning of what became the 7 December 12th letter? 8 9 A. The e-mail on the bottom of page 1, carrying over to the top of page 2, appears to be 10 an e-mail that I've already discussed today. 11 yes, it does appear to be an e-mail conveying a 12 draft to Chris Herren and asking for his comments 13 and edits regarding that particular draft. 14 15 Q. And And did Mr. Herren provide comments and edits on or about November 3rd? 16 A. Yes, he did. 17 Q. And do you recall sharing any subsequent 18 drafts of what became the December 12th letter 19 with Mr. Herren? 20 A. I don't recall one way or the other. 21 Q. Do you recall him giving you comments on 22 any subsequent drafts? Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 445 1 A. I don't recall one way or the other. 2 MR. GREENBAUM: All right. I want to 3 mark as Exhibit 46 a series of e-mails. At the 4 top is an e-mail from John Gore to Chris Herren. 5 It's marked as DOJ 28354. 6 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 46 marked for 7 identification and attached to the 8 transcript.) 9 BY MR. GREENBAUM: 10 Q. Mr. Gore, do you recognize these e-mails? 11 A. I'm not sure whether I recognize these 12 13 e-mails, but I -- I believe I recall them. Q. Okay. Do you recall responding to 14 questions from the civil division about the census 15 citizenship question litigation case? 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 Q. And do you recall seeking Mr. Herren's 18 19 20 comments? A. Yes, I do. MR. GREENBAUM: All right. I'm going to 21 mark as Exhibit 47 a document that you probably 22 recognize, but I want to make sure we've got it in Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 446 1 the record. 2 (Gore Deposition Exhibit 47 marked for 3 identification and attached to the 4 transcript.) 5 BY MR. GREENBAUM: 6 Q. Mr. Gore, do you recognize Exhibit 47? 7 A. Exhibit 47 appears to be a copy of my 8 written testimony to the Committee on Oversight 9 and Government Reform at the U.S. House of 10 Representatives, which I presented on May 18th, 11 2018. 12 Q. I'd like to go back to Exhibit 23. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. And I want to call your attention to 15 pages 48, 49, and 50. And there are -- on this 16 privilege log, if you'll look at item 690, using 17 the rows along the left -- 693, 694, 698, they all 18 seem to reflect e-mails that you received from 19 Mr. Shumate at the civil division regarding the 20 draft of Commerce's decision memo. 21 Is that a fair characterization? 22 MR. GARDNER: Objection. Compound. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 447 1 THE WITNESS: Just to confirm, you're 2 talking about 690, 693, 694, and 698? 3 BY MR. GREENBAUM: 4 Q. Yes. 5 A. With -- I appear to be at least one of 6 the recipients on all of those e-mails. And 7 according to this chart, those e-mails are from 8 Mr. Shumate. 9 Q. Do you recall responding to Mr. Shumate, 10 through e-mail or any other means, with respect to 11 those four e-mails that he sent you? 12 13 14 A. I don't -- I don't recall that one way or the other. Q. I want to go back to Exhibit 5. And I'm 15 going to refer you -- if you look at the very 16 bottom of page 1 to the very top of page 2, 17 there's an e-mail in that chain from Mr. Gary to 18 you that says, "John, my contact at OJC [sic], not 19 at the department level, has heard nothing, and is 20 equally puzzled about the question." 21 22 Do you see what I'm referring to? A. I see it. Yes. Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 448 1 2 Q. Was -- were you puzzled about the question? 3 A. Was I puzzled about the question? 4 Q. Yes. 5 A. I don't recall at the time whether I was 6 7 8 9 puzzled about it or not. Q. Do you recall if Mr. Gary was puzzled about the question? A. I can't speak for Mr. Gary, and I don't 10 recall whether he told me that or not. 11 the e-mail itself is referring to Mr. Gary's 12 contact at census OGC. 13 Q. Yes. I believe And it said that he's equally 14 puzzled about the question, which connotates that 15 someone else other than him was puzzled. 16 17 MR. GARDNER: foundation. Objection. Lack of Calls for speculation. 18 THE WITNESS: 19 MR. GREENBAUM: 20 MR. GARDNER: I don't know. Okay. Oh, we're out of time. If 21 you have one more question, I'm happy to let you 22 ask it, just out of professional courtesy, but we Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 449 1 do need to wrap up. 2 MR. GREENBAUM: 3 MR. GARDNER: 4 I'm done. Terrific. We reserve the right to read and sign. 5 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 6 video deposition. 7 6:48 p.m. This concludes our The time on the video is We are off the record. 8 (Whereupon, at 6:48 p.m., the videotaped 9 deposition of JOHN GORE was concluded.) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 450 1 2 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, CHRISTINA S. HOTSKO, the officer before 3 whom the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby 4 certify that the witness whose testimony appears in 5 the foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that 6 the testimony of said witness was taken by me in 7 stenotypy and thereafter reduced to typewriting under 8 my direction; that said statement is a true record of 9 the proceedings; that I am neither counsel for, 10 related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the 11 action in which this statement was taken; and, 12 further, that I am not a relative or employee of any 13 counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, 14 nor financially or otherwise interested in the 15 outcome of this action. 16 17 <%14615,Signature%> 18 CHRISTINA S. HOTSKO 19 Notary Public in and for the 20 District of Columbia 21 My commission expires: 22 November 14, 2021 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 451 1 NEW YORK IMMIGRATION COALITION, et al., vs. 2 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, et al. 3 JOHN GORE 4 5 6 INSTRUCTIONS TO THE WITNESS Please read your deposition over carefully and 7 make any necessary corrections. 8 reason in the appropriate space on the errata sheet 9 for any corrections that are made. 10 You should state the After doing so, please sign the errata sheet and 11 date it. 12 you have noted on the errata sheet, which will be 13 attached to your deposition. 14 You are signing same subject to the changes It is imperative that you return the original 15 errata sheet to the deposing attorney within 16 thirty (30) days of receipt of the deposition 17 transcript by you. 18 deposition transcript may be deemed to be accurate 19 and may be used in court. If you fail to do so, the 20 21 22 PA 3072371 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 452 1 NEW YORK IMMIGRATION COALITION, et al., vs. UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, et al. 2 JOHN GORE 3 4 E R R A T A - - - - - 5 6 PAGE _ _ _ LINE _ _ _ CHANGE _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 7 Reason:_______________________________________ 8 _ _ _ 9 Reason:_______________________________________ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 10 _ _ _ 11 Reason:_______________________________________ 12 _ _ _ 13 Reason:_______________________________________ 14 _ _ _ 15 Reason:_______________________________________ 16 _ _ _ 17 Reason:_______________________________________ 18 _ _ _ 19 Reason:_______________________________________ 20 _ _ _ 21 Reason:_______________________________________ 22 PA 3072371 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 453 1 NEW YORK IMMIGRATION COALITION, et al., vs. 2 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, et al. 3 JOHN GORE 4 5 ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF DEPONENT 6 I, ______________________, do hereby certify 7 that I have read the foregoing pages and that the 8 same is a correct transcription of the answers given 9 by me to the questions therein propounded, except for 10 the corrections or changes in form or substance, if 11 any, noted in the attached Errata Sheet. 12 13 14 __________ 15 DATE ________________________ SIGNATURE 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 PA 3072371 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [& - 2] Page 1 & & 1:16 3:3 9:1 0 00002712 254:21 00003740 133:2 000129985 80:5 0002628 95:18 0002636 111:4 0002653 105:11 0002657 102:6 000311 47:7 000663 155:16 002 145:10 05025 1:6 1 1 5:7 8:14 22:9,15 48:11,19,20 94:10 346:11 347:1,20 349:18 352:19 354:1 356:1 358:4 358:7 359:12 364:7 369:18 370:12 375:20 376:10,17,19 378:2,20 379:14 383:22 386:15 387:1,18 388:3 394:5 426:7 427:6 427:16 430:2,16 444:8 447:16 10 5:17 115:15,16 234:10 100 363:15 101 5:14 1019 347:13 105 5:15 1050 2:12 10:19 94:11 10:37 94:14 10th 262:8 11 5:3,18 125:20 126:2 430:22 110 5:16 1120 183:4 113 359:1 363:3 115 5:17 11:00 261:13 262:4,9 11:32 156:11 11:48 156:14 11th 80:4,20 83:4 87:5 149:17,20 158:12 159:5,21 160:1,7 398:11,19 398:21 399:1 12 5:19 6:3 132:18 133:1 162:21 299:9 300:1 363:14 12/12/2017 256:2 125 5:18 1250 4:18 1277 320:4 1281 320:10 12:18 312:14 12:55 232:5,11 12th 20:18 21:2 70:19 119:13 126:20 154:7 155:17 158:13 159:6,14,21 160:2 160:8,11,21 180:5 259:7 300:19 316:4 343:7 362:8 385:4 401:14 435:6 436:7 437:20 439:10,18 443:3,6 444:7,18 13 5:20 135:8,13 211:20 212:19 213:1,16 214:22 218:14 219:6 359:2 407:20 1300 3:9 132 5:19 135 5:20 136 183:4 138 5:21 13th 96:7 261:16 297:13 14 5:21 138:12,17 450:22 1401 2:17 4:4 142 5:22 145 6:2 14615 450:17 14798 138:22 14th 2:8 185:2 15 5:22 118:13 142:18,22 1512 2:8 155 6:3 1563 359:1 15th 2:4 16 1:9 6:2 145:1,5 251:14 1620 2:12 16th 262:13 263:3 266:20 267:3,8 17 6:3 155:9,14 160:20 170:19 343:7 355:19 401:15 426:1 178 6:4 17th 105:13 108:3 18 6:4 7:16 177:20 178:1 18th 22:18 111:6,6 113:2 114:18 115:4 371:12 446:10 19 6:6,21 204:20 205:3 1965 19:13 1970 171:1,3,9 1988 241:4 1997 361:17 19th 261:13 262:4 265:1 319:19 1:00 222:1 1:18 1:6 1st 48:4 49:5 126:4 151:20,21 385:10 2 2 5:8 15:3,13,17 16:4,8,20 19:12 25:7,8 26:5,15,16 32:16,22 33:5,8 40:4 54:10,16 55:3,18 57:6,8 77:18 80:17 94:14 103:22 104:5 156:10 162:21 169:21 170:17,21 174:7 176:5 180:11 181:6,8 182:1,10,13,22 183:14 184:19 185:2,11,12,14 195:6 196:18 197:2 204:14 206:3 207:2,7,18 209:3 241:1,4 242:8,9,10 249:19 249:22 250:7 251:10,20 252:6 252:11,14 253:3 253:18 254:7 261:15 346:4 351:8 362:10 365:18,20 370:7 371:17 373:1 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [2 - 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age] Page 5 208:15 209:7,14 209:17 210:1,11 229:19 230:19 231:8 234:8 235:2 235:3 240:8 241:9 241:14,15,18 243:9,13,15,20 244:5,13,18,22 245:6,12,15,22 246:8,12,14,20,21 247:6,12,16,22 248:3,7,14 249:2,3 252:12 253:16 321:3,21 327:10 341:22 342:4,14 342:15,17 343:2 346:3 349:22 350:4,12 351:14 353:3,4,10,13,22 354:15,17,21 361:17 362:1 366:2,7,9,12,14,21 366:21 367:5,15 368:2 375:8 377:12,14 378:2,5 380:20 382:17 388:9,18 389:11 390:10,14 391:9 391:12,19 392:13 396:2,3,16 397:2 421:3 425:10 432:18 act 15:3,18 16:5,9 16:20 19:13 21:9 22:5 23:22 26:12 33:5 54:11,17 55:4 56:3 65:8 67:22 77:18 104:1 104:5 117:20 118:3 134:15,22 140:3,12,15 168:22 175:12 181:1,2,7 182:2 188:11 190:21 194:7 195:4,6 241:2,5 250:7,9,13 250:22 253:19 256:4 303:8,17 304:12,21 305:11 307:5,20 308:6,22 310:4,18 311:10 341:9 401:18 402:7 406:5 426:6 437:8 acting 18:16,20 19:15 20:11 36:4 141:4 164:15,19 165:3,9 249:17 255:11,22 256:22 257:17 258:6,17 280:12,16,19 action 9:10 113:7 113:18 114:20 313:19 450:11,15 actions 25:8 209:4 actual 33:20 214:13 269:16 309:21 420:12 431:15 432:7 433:1 add 72:3 150:14 212:2 257:3,22 313:21 401:16 403:15 441:21 442:16 added 21:11 22:3 28:2 154:3 156:2 225:12 283:7 299:10 371:17 adding 41:21 410:15 addition 25:11 38:5 250:6 332:3 332:14,20 333:10 333:20 334:7,14 373:1 397:3 411:5 413:4 additional 50:21 143:10 145:16 165:5 254:7 403:9 431:3 address 59:4 65:16 66:3 165:8 256:8 302:8 305:6 305:10,22 addressed 155:18 164:12,18,21 258:4 302:14 306:14 309:9 315:16 319:21 346:15 347:3 adds 371:19 adequacy 418:17 adequate 354:1 administer 9:8 administration 250:2,4,5,11,18 251:8,12,18 252:2 252:2,15 253:4,18 308:5,21 309:8,12 309:20 310:3,17 313:19 367:21 368:3,4,11 369:2 administration's 251:6 administrative 47:19 58:13 95:19 102:9 105:11 106:20 107:5,7 111:3 155:15 256:14 257:12 258:11,21 282:18 285:13 320:3 admire 273:3 admit 52:5 adopted 346:10 adult 388:20 advancing 2:11 advice 45:10 120:21 121:2,6,14 121:17,19 122:3 123:10,13 293:11 294:10 advised 48:4 advises 316:10 advising 438:11 advisor 103:1 advisory 315:14 316:8 advocated 55:12 55:17 affairs 32:1 365:12 404:12 405:7 affect 40:17 42:6 42:16 327:8 393:15 affiliated 414:20 affiliations 9:13 affirmatively 212:17 affirmed 11:8 african 429:14,20 429:22 ag 58:22 81:13 105:22 109:6 111:10,13 331:14 age 15:6 33:3 169:14 192:1 196:17 206:6,8 208:10 209:8,13 234:13 341:18 345:13 346:11,17 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [age - answer] Page 6 355:22 356:19 357:11 358:10 359:4 376:1 432:10 agency 88:1,3 aggregate 211:8 211:18 212:4 aggregated 177:5 191:18 aggregates 215:6 393:11 aggregation 395:19 ago 87:9 141:9 192:21 224:19 340:1 409:4 414:9 414:12 agree 8:12 24:3 26:8 125:3 173:3 197:5 201:10 232:22 300:8,11 305:8 306:4,7 307:14 341:11,17 342:11 346:9 360:11,16 361:20 364:4,10 375:19 376:15 377:4,21 384:16 386:14 387:5,12,15,21 389:17 418:1 420:16 428:22 429:2 433:7,8 agreed 305:20 agreeing 370:21 agreement 301:12 agrees 162:4,13 163:11 302:10 aguinaga 31:2,4,8 120:20 126:5 133:3,5,9,13,20 134:1,13,21 135:4 136:21 137:4 151:9 297:12 300:18 303:12 305:4 306:5,11 308:16 309:6,19 330:13,20 369:17 444:1 aguinaga's 302:5 302:16 305:21 ah 227:5 ahead 27:14 316:18 417:16 425:14 al 1:3,7 8:17,18 451:1,2 452:1,1 453:1,2 alabama 398:14 399:18,21 402:18 alaska 430:1 alaskan 429:14 alice 3:14 10:11 align 83:3 191:20 191:22 192:10,14 193:8,19,21 194:10,16 195:7 380:20,22 381:7 381:19 alleged 169:15 185:10 alleviate 230:5 238:14 239:17 alliance 2:14 allocate 404:6 405:11,20 allocating 406:7 allow 23:20 26:10 56:14 204:13 408:3 allowed 130:7 270:21 322:19 alongside 27:22 alternate 267:17 alternative 265:14 266:2,11 267:12 269:5 271:22 273:19 274:7,12 275:7 276:11 285:12 356:12 alternatives 269:17 270:4,8 276:10 289:8 amend 48:6,13 52:2,12 amendment 185:2 american 2:3 15:10 26:2 48:7 49:6 81:16 169:20 178:6 195:17 234:9 368:13 390:8 403:20 426:20 429:14,14 429:20,22 430:1 americans 2:11 amicus 437:5 amount 416:16 analyses 317:10 analysis 40:15 42:4,14 55:14,17 55:18 258:8 264:6 275:6,19 278:18 317:5,17,22 318:2 318:8,17 319:1,2 321:2,21,22 322:9 324:8 325:2 326:7 346:5 363:7 364:1 387:1 424:19 427:2 analyze 25:6 185:13 346:16 431:7 analyzed 38:3 258:19 analyzing 185:10 396:17 424:8 anderson 315:18 andrew 3:18 10:17 andriola 2:11 10:3 10:3 ann 313:22 369:17 370:8 anomalous 431:14 433:1 answer 12:22 13:13 14:8 21:16 21:18 41:6 42:1 42:11 48:17 57:7 59:22 60:3,8 61:4 62:8,10,12 63:10 66:17,20 67:3 70:4,7,10,12 71:3 71:5,14,16,17 72:8 72:10,12,21 74:12 74:15,15 75:21 76:1,9 77:2 79:1 82:10,12,14 83:6 97:7,10,10 98:20 98:22 99:1,5,15,17 99:19 104:16,19 104:21 106:11,12 108:7,8,11,18 109:4,12,22 110:8 112:2,4 113:10,12 113:14,16 114:10 114:11 123:12 124:13,15,17 125:19 136:10,12 136:19 138:7,8,9 138:11 162:18 163:9 164:2 166:11 186:3 188:8,20 189:15 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [answer - arthur] 206:12 215:8 220:21 221:16 222:19 231:16,22 235:13 238:1,2,21 239:4 240:2,4 253:11,21 254:1,3 254:11 269:9 273:1,3,15 277:15 279:13 285:3,6,8 289:21 290:1,3 291:15,17,19 295:14 296:6 301:9,10 302:7,8 305:5 308:17,18 310:9,12,14 311:2 322:20 324:20 336:20,22 337:2 337:18,20,22 338:9 344:6,8,14 373:14 385:2 389:6 396:7,10,12 401:10,12 402:21 403:1 407:5,8,13 408:11,20 412:19 412:21 413:1,9 419:3,6,17 420:4 428:15,17,19 429:5 434:19 435:14 438:18,20 440:3,5,17 441:2,6 441:13,21 answered 147:17 154:14 229:6 239:5 247:13 279:9 282:1 441:20 442:13,18 answering 12:17 30:14 408:9 answers 220:17 279:20 408:18 453:8 Page 7 anticipate 214:12 anticipated 293:15 294:16,21 405:5 anticipating 122:7 122:14 anticipation 122:19 123:5 anybody 207:4 369:16 418:16 429:21 437:21 439:2,3,7,12 apart 183:16 apologies 314:20 apologize 62:17 92:2 271:9 285:18 352:13 372:1,7 417:8,14 appeal 345:11 356:17 359:20 appear 28:12 29:7 29:11 51:17 124:5 125:13 198:20 298:9 303:9 331:11 444:11 447:5 appearance 9:16 appearances 9:13 appears 22:19 40:6 50:3 51:5 81:6 96:8 133:8 135:15 145:11 155:20 161:16 171:18 174:13 255:7,13 260:17 260:17 262:6 283:1 294:1,7 298:3,10,19 303:11 306:2 312:13,19 314:10 315:11 331:12,12 371:9 398:10,15 403:13 416:9 444:1,9 446:7 450:4 appellate 345:19 346:1 355:17 applies 359:6 apply 210:4 213:10 269:19 421:16 appointee 19:4 appointees 140:19 153:14 apportion 400:9 apportioned 335:20 apportionment 336:7 337:7,14 338:5,12,22 368:15 400:7 appreciate 244:1 appropriate 25:8 25:12 34:11 43:9 107:10 169:17 170:2,8,13 275:2 276:1,12 279:4 287:7 402:6 426:17 451:8 approps 331:15 approval 379:18 approve 419:12 approved 285:11 approves 361:21 approximate 128:20 234:13 approximately 171:6 apps 45:14 april 183:4 330:14 330:21 332:17 333:7,16 334:5,12 385:10 ar12756 58:15 area 39:10 195:15 196:18 203:17 205:12 207:14 211:9,19 245:7 246:15 247:2,17 384:22 385:1 388:16 389:14 390:1,15 391:11 391:13 395:8 areas 39:11 177:15 178:20 179:3,7 180:2,7 207:15,17 245:1 246:13 248:14 388:12 argue 421:19 argument 367:10 367:12,13 428:6 argumentative 280:14 arguments 428:3 428:5,8 arose 101:13 arrive 78:6,17 art 143:7 154:21 266:15,17 267:15 270:12 273:7,8,17 283:13 400:17,18 400:19 arthur 22:17 47:8 80:3,19 155:17 254:18,19 255:2,6 255:9,18 256:1 259:21 260:7,14 260:14 261:4,11 261:20 262:8,13 263:2 267:2,7 268:9,12 274:11 278:17 283:13 284:1 314:11 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [arthur - attorney] 315:5 316:4 317:10 398:10,12 article 6:19 312:8 312:18,20 313:4,8 317:21 400:14 ascertain 225:14 asian 2:11 aside 240:6 278:12 281:5 asked 60:7 81:9 86:8,10 98:14 100:17 125:5 129:22 132:9 147:16 154:13 221:4,5 229:5 233:14 248:5,6 253:8,8,14 270:10 277:8 279:8,18 281:22 282:5 308:13 319:1 322:19 356:9 384:11 405:2 432:14 444:3 asking 12:16 54:18 59:20 60:6 72:17 76:16,17 84:8 88:19 107:8 107:15 112:6 113:20 114:2,5,10 154:21 164:1 187:13 199:10,13 218:17,22 219:4,4 219:6 220:3 221:2 221:19 227:1,3 237:22 253:7 268:16 270:14 279:15 287:1 289:6,10,11 298:4 298:13,13 305:14 346:13,20 348:6 355:15 372:5,9 Page 8 390:21 393:17 405:9 414:9 435:16 436:3,4 444:12 asks 40:13 302:9 365:18 401:15 aspect 426:8 427:5 427:14 aspects 17:22 284:9 assembly 386:4 assert 437:1 asserting 311:5 asserts 431:4 assessed 236:15 assessing 135:4 140:14 168:1,5,15 174:7 assessment 39:2 39:18 57:13 assign 233:13 assigned 112:16 234:1 391:12 assigns 196:8,10 assist 106:1 109:7 109:15 110:3,4 234:18 299:1 assistance 46:8 assistant 18:16 19:20 31:15 141:3 249:17 414:21 associate 64:16 65:2,11 139:20 146:6 151:13,15 associated 36:16 37:5 196:7 198:2 198:15 199:17,18 201:2,7,13,20 202:4 203:22 204:12 224:12,22 225:19 226:3 227:11 228:2 229:4,18 341:5 388:17 392:12 assume 208:9 assumed 421:16 assumes 229:8 435:11 436:13 assuming 326:19 372:17 assumptions 421:13 atlantic 4:18 attached 6:13 7:21 22:10 26:17 47:4 50:17,18 58:6 79:20 95:11 101:21 105:5 110:21 115:17 125:21 126:14,17 126:19 132:19 135:9,17 138:13 141:7 142:19 143:9 145:2,14 155:10 178:2 204:21 240:15 254:14 282:13 292:12 296:20 297:7,9 300:15 303:2 311:19 312:5 315:2,13 319:16 330:7 331:9 349:3 350:20 358:19 362:21 365:2 369:11 370:10 371:6 372:12 373:17 398:6 403:4 416:5 443:15 445:7 446:3 451:13 453:11 attachment 297:3 301:2 371:2 373:21 attachments 297:15 331:1 attempt 225:13 attempting 333:8 333:12 351:13 attended 11:19 32:10 attention 343:6 354:4 363:4 375:5 446:14 attorney 3:9,19 9:16 10:20 14:21 15:1 17:7,8,9 18:17 19:20 31:15 64:4,16 65:2,11 75:2,5,10,17 76:4 77:6 78:1 79:4 82:17,21 83:8,17 83:20 84:3 99:21 100:3,14,22 101:12,18 103:2,5 103:6 105:17 109:14,16 111:16 112:12,19,22 113:21 114:16 115:1,3,6 139:17 139:21 141:1,3,5 142:2,4 146:4,5,6 147:13 151:13,15 157:21 160:18 162:4,9,12 163:7 163:10 249:17 265:22 266:10,13 268:2,21 270:13 271:12 272:6 274:9 290:14,16 291:9,22 301:11 306:4 315:17 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [attorney - basis] 329:11 331:19 335:16 336:1,5,7 338:3,10 401:9 414:21 442:19,21 450:13 451:15 attorney's 398:13 attorneys 293:10 293:14 auburn 75:11,13 audio 8:10,11 august 73:7,9,13 authority 277:7 278:7,13 357:19 437:1 authorization 147:5,14 148:10 148:12 158:15,22 159:4 160:2,6,10 160:14,15 authorize 133:9 authorized 9:8 19:16 30:13 147:1 147:4,22 148:7,16 158:3 333:16 334:2,2 authors 317:18 available 33:16 34:4 35:2 37:13 38:13 55:8 56:2 57:4 105:17 167:12 185:7 195:17 211:7 212:4 234:17 242:16 248:7 285:14 287:13,17 318:5 319:8 325:21 326:9 341:22 343:4 349:22 350:12 400:14 433:13 442:11 Page 9 avenue 2:17 3:16 236:22 237:5,6,11 4:4 237:14 238:5 avoid 223:8 299:4 240:10,11 241:15 392:16 241:19 242:2,14 avoidance 224:8 242:19 243:8,11 224:17 227:8 244:3 245:20 228:2,14 229:17 246:1,6 259:11,12 aware 14:3 16:21 259:19 282:4,8,8 17:9 25:21 26:4,7 283:22 296:10,15 29:4,9 32:5 36:18 304:2 311:16 40:15,20 42:4,14 317:5 318:11 42:19 49:4 51:19 319:1,2,3 321:1,10 52:8 53:20 54:8 321:20 322:4 54:18,22 55:5,7 328:11,17,22 56:1,5 57:2,12,22 350:11 351:16,17 58:1 59:7,14 351:19 353:20 60:11,14 61:5,8,22 354:3 379:20 62:5,20 63:3,8,13 399:17,21 400:5 63:18,20,22 66:9 400:10,11,15 66:12 68:15,21 402:11,14 406:18 69:2,18,21 72:1 406:21 407:9 77:16,20 82:16 408:22 424:1 104:3 134:20 430:8,11 135:3 140:2,10,13 awareness 60:6 143:22 164:6,10 284:5 165:10,12,13 b 175:21 176:3,4,8 b 205:5 363:5 176:20 180:5 back 40:10 46:15 181:21 188:9,14 74:2 85:14 86:3 189:8,18 190:12 86:18 87:6 143:7 190:19 191:5 144:3 156:22 194:6,12,13,18,19 157:6 180:11 195:4,9,10 197:22 212:6 217:21 198:4,5,7,9 203:11 231:4 234:3 241:3 203:18,19 204:3,6 249:11 260:8 204:10 223:6,12 261:11 262:2 223:20 224:7,16 266:22 290:10 225:2,17 226:1,13 302:4 318:22 227:5,7,13,15 329:10 335:4 228:7,11,19 337:7 343:6 235:14,18,19 373:20 375:3 413:16,18 414:2 426:1 427:8 434:14 435:22 446:12 447:14 background 81:11 166:10 167:14 331:22 365:21 403:10 415:3 421:12 backlash 313:11 baji 10:1,6 414:5 balanced 403:16 bannon 409:13 barbara 315:18 barnett 345:2 355:19 356:14 357:1,3 based 33:22 41:12 57:15 77:13 106:21 107:13 171:21 175:7 176:9,22 177:4 195:2 209:13,19 214:3 218:18 219:9 224:2 226:4 229:2 294:7 318:4 321:2,22 325:9 335:13,20 347:20 349:15 360:4,13 360:18 361:12 362:16 363:17 423:2,4,5 425:10 430:2 bases 404:19 basis 20:22 21:9 48:17 107:12 166:11 220:17 241:16 277:15 366:1,6 367:14 409:1 435:13 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [bates - block] Page 10 bates 47:7 80:5 95:18 102:6 105:10 111:4 116:3 133:1 139:2 254:20 255:16 282:18 293:2 320:3,9 443:12,13 bathroom 156:5 beach 7:6 345:4 357:22 358:22 bear 58:14 116:2 343:10 351:4 bearing 243:18 bears 47:7 80:5 102:5 254:20 began 14:20 174:20 beginning 1:20 9:16 93:13 251:8 302:6 359:3 371:17 414:12 begins 94:13 156:13 232:13 286:7 329:6 357:17 397:17 begun 71:20 behalf 1:21 2:2,7 2:14 3:2,7,13 4:2 10:16,17 16:16 19:17 37:20 41:14 44:2 120:3 278:8 412:9 429:22 433:17 belief 170:12 believe 14:9 21:2 24:8 29:14 31:13 32:18 37:2,19 39:12 45:3,7,16 48:19 49:10 54:14 55:6,11 58:14 63:9 69:17 78:5 82:20 87:16 88:22 91:15 104:9,11 116:6 118:6 119:10 120:11 121:4,10 130:11 132:3 134:2 140:21 142:17 148:12,15 149:13 149:22 152:18 153:5 154:19 157:5 158:17 159:10 160:4,17 161:11 162:10,12 163:10 165:1 170:16 174:3 175:8 181:16 183:19 191:13 192:19 196:20 200:11,12 203:9 206:20 207:4 209:16 211:2 215:12 223:18 224:14 225:17 228:19 233:4,22 236:20 242:11 243:13 245:9 246:4,9 248:5 251:11,16 252:18 255:4 257:8 263:10,22 264:12 264:13 265:2,5,5,9 268:11 274:3 275:22 279:1 282:2 283:6 284:16 287:4 290:9 294:18 297:17 304:18 306:16 318:16,20 318:22 320:8 325:8 330:3 333:2 333:3 336:6 340:12 341:20 342:4,8 345:22 346:7,14 347:17 351:4 353:13 355:10,14 359:22 360:20 362:10 364:19 366:19 367:3,6,16 374:13 375:17 376:9 377:19 378:4 381:3 382:18,20 385:21 388:14 391:9 400:10,12 400:14 401:1 402:5,16 404:17 405:2,3 406:5 407:12,15 410:3,5 410:8,19 411:2 418:5 420:19,20 423:11 425:3 426:9 427:7 430:14 432:12,14 435:3 438:5 439:11 440:22 442:18 443:6 445:12 448:10 believed 37:3 190:18 428:5 believes 162:9 286:19 419:9 belive 359:19 ben 31:2 120:19 126:5 133:3 330:13,20 369:15 369:17 444:1 benavidez 204:16 242:22 244:3,7,12 244:17,21 245:14 246:2,7,22 249:4 best 25:5,13 67:12 73:15 79:6,12 88:14 117:19 118:1 146:14 158:21 159:7 169:19 175:18 211:2 256:11 257:1,11,21 258:9 260:2,8 275:17 276:2 279:4,20 285:10 324:13 325:2 326:8 392:17 411:18 426:19 428:3,8 bethany 133:4,7 133:11 better 33:14 39:16 43:15 67:21 78:2 78:8,19 418:14 434:8 beyond 63:9 67:2 144:1 264:3 370:16 372:17 374:5,18 431:2 big 418:17 bigger 197:7 bit 90:4 180:11 204:18 366:4 367:10,16 black 2:14 blame 367:20 369:1 blanche 58:20,22 64:2 66:11 75:2,5 blanket 358:10 359:11 block 16:10,22 18:12,13 33:1,4,7 33:9,16 36:19,21 37:14 167:5 185:5 198:1 205:13,16 205:22 206:8 207:6,11 208:3,6 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [block - bureau] 209:8,11,13,18,21 209:22 210:2,11 210:12 212:7,10 212:11,14 213:21 213:21 214:3,3,4 214:19 215:6,6,7 215:17 216:7,7,10 216:11 217:11,13 217:13,17,17,18 217:18,22 219:8,8 219:11 220:8,9,11 220:11,16,16 221:12 222:6,15 222:16 224:12,21 230:3 234:7,8,14 234:15,18 235:4,7 235:11,16 236:1 236:10,17,17 237:3,10,18 238:10 239:13 256:11 257:2,21 258:10 259:17 265:15 266:3,12 267:12 269:6 271:14 272:1 273:14,19 274:8 284:3,14,21 290:7 351:15,18 353:8 388:5 389:1,19,21 391:4,17 393:11 395:4,8,12,14,17 396:2 397:7 424:12 439:22 440:12,15 441:16 441:17 blocks 205:11,15 206:5 209:9,10,19 210:4 221:8 222:17 394:14,17 394:18,21 395:20 440:9,11,16 Page 11 441:17 bloomberg 5:8 26:20 32:15 board 315:14 borders 205:14 bottom 80:17 139:3 240:20 261:21,22 262:13 312:21 320:11 349:13 351:22 354:4 359:2 369:18 370:7,13 417:14 424:7 444:8 447:16 bounds 41:2 boutin 3:8 box 3:10 branch 7:3,5 31:16 345:2 347:13 348:14,22 350:13,16 354:11 354:12,19 branstad 58:19 break 12:20 13:1 94:6,18 156:6,18 157:2 222:1 232:4 232:17 323:12 397:10 413:11 breakdown 351:18 brett 3:15 10:13 31:11,13 293:6 briefed 256:10 257:10,19 258:8 258:20 264:6 briefing 331:3,8 331:13,18 briefly 406:11 briefs 44:3 340:3 bring 25:7 33:8 195:5 204:4,7 206:3 207:7 burden 375:20 237:15 377:22 burdensome 383:7 418:9 320:15,16 420:11 436:18 bureau 6:4,6 437:11,12 20:18 21:7 23:16 bringing 55:8 56:3 23:19 24:6,9,14 206:20 429:22 26:10 28:1 34:18 brings 418:10 34:20 35:1,12,14 broad 129:21 36:5,9,14 37:2,8 313:11 406:10 37:21 38:18,21 broadly 387:17 39:4,14,17 40:22 broken 235:9,15 47:9 48:12,21 236:1 49:13,20 53:6 broker 100:18 61:10 62:2 63:1 brought 45:4 88:6 119:12 240:19 241:2 123:18 124:7 244:8 351:8 126:22 127:5,14 381:16 382:9 155:19 161:8 436:21,21 164:16,20 165:6,9 bubble 298:20 165:11 166:3,11 299:15 166:16,20 167:2 building 103:16 168:4,8,11,14 234:15 171:2,3,10,21 bullet 23:13 172:4,7 173:14,18 182:16,20 183:12 173:20 176:8 185:19 186:15,16 177:14,19 178:5 188:15 189:7 178:19 179:15 191:16 192:7 180:1,6 184:5,11 195:11 197:11 185:15 186:6 199:10,12,14,15 187:1,1,8 188:1 200:9,15,22 230:6 195:16 196:8,10 230:11,13,18 198:3,10 202:22 231:6,11 232:2,3 205:10 211:7,13 234:4,4,5 235:1 211:17 212:15 238:15 239:17 213:19 214:2,12 331:22 375:5 215:4,16 216:1,7 380:18,19 386:12 216:18 217:1,8,14 388:9,13 389:9 217:19,21 218:8 390:6 433:16 219:7,13 220:8,16 bullets 182:19 221:11,15 222:5,8 240:6 222:15,18 223:6 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [bureau - case] Page 12 223:21 224:9,21 225:6,20 226:2 227:18,22 228:13 230:2 231:1,6 233:12 235:22 236:9 238:9 239:11 245:5,11 246:12 247:1,16 247:21 248:12 255:12,19 256:5 256:14,22 257:6 257:18,19 258:6,6 258:7,12,17,17,19 259:6 260:21 262:21 263:2,12 263:16 264:6,14 264:22 265:11,13 266:2,11 267:11 267:16 268:8,10 268:14,18 270:12 273:11,18 274:6 275:4,6,19 276:7 276:13,21 277:2 277:12,22 278:3,9 278:14,17 280:11 280:12,17,20 281:13,19 282:6,9 282:17,21 283:14 284:2 285:15 286:18,18 287:15 287:20 288:17 289:3,9,14 290:6 290:11 291:3,6,11 292:2 298:4,5,12 298:13,14 316:6 316:10 319:21 321:2,21 322:6,9 323:6 324:8,14 325:1,3 326:4,7,9 326:10,10 327:17 328:7,21 329:14 330:1 338:18 342:3,6,20 366:14 366:15 375:1 382:15 385:6,8,21 386:2 408:19 427:21 435:7 436:8 438:9,12 439:8 440:14 441:5,7,16 442:16 bureau's 38:12 226:14 259:14 263:15 269:5 271:13,22 273:13 274:7 281:4,20 287:2,16 288:8,17 314:14 390:8 burling 1:16 3:3 9:1 bush 368:1,2 c c 2:1 3:1,1 4:1,1 5:1 8:1 15:6 138:19 250:22 calculation 169:13 california 2:9 3:7 3:8,10 call 75:12 84:8 87:6 98:5 99:21 100:2 101:17 118:5 119:7 289:19 319:7 347:5 354:10 381:22 383:12 410:12,15,20,22 411:2,9,12,20 412:2,4,15 446:14 called 1:14 27:11 27:17,20 98:3 116:11 140:7 171:4 285:12 350:15 368:13 398:18,20 400:22 calling 237:20 calls 13:10 21:14 65:18 70:4 71:1 71:11 75:18 76:7 78:21 82:7 85:21 87:1 88:10 97:7 98:20 108:5 111:22 113:10 122:22 124:10 136:8 138:5 162:6 162:16 165:20 166:6,17 167:6,8 184:5 185:20 186:17 189:13 206:10 208:18,19 212:21,22 214:8 215:20 231:13,19 238:16 239:18 249:6 269:7 272:21 283:15 284:22 291:12 295:11 303:18 309:4 310:7 334:16 336:18 337:16 344:4 347:7 381:20 386:19,21 387:9 387:19 389:3,5 396:5 401:5 402:20 407:2 412:17 419:1 428:13 438:16 440:1,20 448:17 camille 116:5 campos 7:7 362:7 363:3 cancel 262:14 capacity 20:6 44:14 46:10,10 186:2 capture 375:12 captured 377:12 377:14,17 captures 374:5,13 career 19:5 31:18 32:9 39:17 87:8 87:14,18,22 88:2,5 133:18 140:22 141:2 151:22 152:13 153:1 277:11,21 280:3 careful 77:3 carefully 451:6 carolyn 297:19 carry 56:15 carrying 422:8 444:9 case 1:5 8:19 13:16,19 17:10,15 44:1,2,5,19 45:2,4 45:11 54:16 55:12 55:14 58:13 105:12 120:3 144:18 189:8,19 190:17,17,19 191:5,8,9 194:6,12 194:13,18,20 195:4,5 203:12,18 203:19 204:3,5,6 204:10,14,16 206:3 236:22 237:5,6,11,15 238:7 241:15 242:3,21,22 243:2 243:5,7,11,12,14 243:17 244:3,3,7 244:12,14,21 245:2,14,20 246:1 246:2,7 249:5 252:6,14 253:3,19 276:20 277:5 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [case - census] Page 13 292:18 302:13 306:13 307:3 309:8 335:10 336:14,16 339:22 340:2,3,4 345:13 346:18,19 347:8 347:12,19 348:1 348:13,15,18,19 349:21 350:8,15 351:7,10 353:21 354:12 355:18,21 356:19 357:3,10 357:21 358:1,3,5,9 358:16 359:10,13 359:22 360:2 361:17,21 362:12 362:14 363:18 377:22 379:19 381:16 382:9 383:7 388:2,6 400:16 401:1 417:7,18 418:5,9 418:10,19 419:8,9 419:12 421:14 423:21 424:3 425:5,6,15 427:19 428:2 429:19,19 429:21,22 430:9 432:6 441:15 445:15 cases 15:2 16:3,8 16:20,21 17:4,15 20:14 33:8 54:18 57:9 77:17,18 134:14,22 140:4 190:2,3,11,12,16 191:3,4 193:16 194:1,1,22 206:20 237:13 240:19,22 240:22 241:2,9,14 241:18,19 242:3,4 242:9,9,11,12,12 242:14 249:11,16 249:19,22 251:10 251:20 252:11,17 252:20 254:7 343:16,18 344:2 344:11,12 345:6,9 345:10,20,21 347:15 354:10,19 355:14,16,17,17 357:19 375:22 387:2 392:20,21 415:6 418:8,20,21 420:12 421:16 423:14 424:15 425:3,4 427:9 429:13 430:11 437:15,17 category 339:16 causal 225:3 227:13,22 cause 41:22 74:13 caused 417:19 418:6 cc 102:8 126:5 315:6 cc'ing 255:18 ceg 357:17 cell 8:8 105:17 cellular 8:7 census 6:4,6,6,15 7:2 18:1,12 20:18 20:20 21:7,12 22:4 23:4,10,16,19 24:6,9,13 25:11,16 26:1,10 28:1 33:4 33:9,10,14,19,21 34:16,18,20 35:1,7 35:12,14 36:4,9,14 37:2,8,14,21 38:5 38:12,18,21 39:4 39:14,17 40:17,22 42:2,6,15,17 43:3 43:13 46:21 47:9 48:8,12,14,21 49:7 49:13,20 50:6,22 51:15 52:3,13,21 53:6,22 56:9 59:12,18 60:20 61:10 62:2 63:1 64:7 65:17 66:4 67:2 70:16,22 71:9 72:5 73:4,19 74:10 76:6 77:8 78:7,19 79:5,12 80:7,14 81:14,17 85:1,11 87:7,12 88:6,8,17 89:10,15 90:7,13,20 91:10 91:22 92:10,15,21 93:3 96:10 107:1 109:18 119:12 122:9,16 123:17 123:19 124:7,8 125:15 126:22 127:1,5,6,14,15 128:1,5 131:20 132:12 136:2 138:3 141:8 142:13 154:3 155:19 156:2 161:8,9,21 163:20 164:8,16,20 165:6 165:7,9,11 166:3 166:10,16,20 167:2,4 168:4,8,11 168:14 169:2,16 170:1,7,12 171:1,2 171:3,7,10,11,21 172:4,7 173:14,18 173:20 174:16 175:4 176:8 177:14,19 178:5 178:19 179:15 180:1,6 183:1,18 184:4,5,11 185:15 185:18 186:6,9,14 187:1,1,8,11 188:1 188:2,5 191:21,22 192:2,11,15 193:6 193:11,12,13,19 193:22 194:2,3,5 194:11,17 195:8 195:16,21 196:8,9 197:19,22 198:3 198:10,18,22 199:4,22 200:19 201:1,18 202:22 205:9,9,11,13,15 205:16 206:22 208:3 209:8,9,10 209:11,12,17,19 210:11,17 211:7,9 211:12,13,17,22 212:5,7,10,11,14 212:15,18 213:5 213:18,19 214:2,4 214:7,12,20 215:4 215:5,6,16,17,19 216:1,7,8,13,18 217:1,3,7,11,14,18 217:21 218:8 219:7,13,20 220:8 220:16 221:8,11 221:15,17 222:5,6 222:8,10,15,16,18 222:20 223:3,6,9 223:21 224:1,9,10 224:11,20,21 225:5,8,13,19,20 226:2,4,14,18 227:18,19,22 228:3,13,15,22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [census - characterize] 229:3,15 230:2,5 230:21 231:1,6,10 233:6,12,13,15,19 234:6,7,8,14,18 235:6,10,11,16,22 236:9 237:3,18 238:9,13 239:11 239:14 245:5,11 246:11 247:1,15 247:20 248:12 251:22 252:3 255:12,18 256:14 256:17,22 257:4,6 257:18,19 258:1,5 258:6,7,12,16,17 258:19 259:2,6,14 260:21 262:21 263:1,12,15,16 264:5,11,13,22 265:10,13 266:2 266:11 267:11,16 268:8,10,14,18 269:5 270:11 271:13,22 272:3 273:11,13,18 274:6,7 275:1,4,6 275:16,19 276:7 276:13,20 277:2,8 277:12,22 278:3,9 278:14,17 279:6 280:11,12,16,19 281:4,6,13,19,19 282:5,9,17,21 283:7,14 284:2,20 285:15 286:18,18 287:2,15,16,20 288:8,16,17 289:2 289:9,14 290:6,11 291:3,6,11 292:2 293:13 294:12 295:9,22 298:4,5,6 Page 14 298:12,13,13,15 299:10,12,19 300:3,9 301:2,14 301:14,18 303:7 303:16 304:4,22 305:12,15 307:6 307:21 308:7 309:1 310:5,20 311:12 313:6,10 313:11,21 314:1,4 314:14,16 315:14 316:5,7,8,10,21 317:7 319:21 320:15 321:2,20 322:2,7,9,11 323:3 323:5,17,21,22 324:7,12,14 325:1 325:2,5 326:4,7,9 326:10,10,13,21 327:1,7,9,17,19 328:7,9,10,13,16 328:21 329:14,16 330:1 331:2,6,17 332:4 338:18,19 341:12 342:3,6,20 343:3 347:21 348:17 349:16 353:4 363:11 365:8 366:1,7,9,11 366:14,15,18,20 366:22 367:4,9,15 367:22 368:2 374:22 377:13,18 380:21 382:3,15 383:20 384:14,17 384:18 385:5,6,8 385:11,20,21 386:2 389:22 390:8 391:5,5 394:14 397:3 399:8 401:17 404:2,21 406:17 408:1,9,18,19 411:6 421:3,19 422:3,13 424:7 426:16 427:20,22 432:15 435:7,10 436:8,10 438:1,9 438:12 439:5,8,9 439:22 440:8,12 440:14,15,16,17 441:5,7,15 442:6 442:16,17 445:14 448:12 censuses 171:9 center 1:16 3:4 365:19 certain 20:14 28:8 61:1 71:18 252:20 264:1 317:20 319:3 385:16 386:16 391:10 394:22 404:4 408:1,4 423:17 certainly 17:17 31:7 48:22 139:15 149:12 153:17 168:17 195:9 223:1 252:9 367:3 392:6 certainty 388:4 certificate 450:1 certify 450:4 453:6 cf 1:6 chain 5:7,12,13,14 5:15,16,17,18,19 5:20,21,22 6:2,8,9 6:12,14,18,20,22 7:8,9,10,11,12,14 7:15 102:6 105:9 112:18 143:1 145:6 255:10,15 259:20 274:16,20 373:11 404:13 447:17 chains 229:22 chairman 29:5 challenge 353:1 354:16 383:10 challenges 55:9 381:12,13 challenging 381:17 chance 273:8 chances 313:6,12 change 51:21 52:10 53:21 70:20 364:22 394:15 452:5 changed 53:11 70:18 121:15 changes 50:6 51:19 52:8 53:2 53:14,19 54:8,22 55:5,7 56:1,5,21 57:3,12 58:1 145:12,15 146:13 146:22 147:6,21 148:4,6,9,17 149:1 149:8 251:13 384:21 451:11 453:10 changing 90:3 characteristics 377:7,9,11 378:22 characterization 103:3 305:7,8,21 325:17 390:5 402:3 446:21 characterize 355:7 422:20 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [characterized - citizenship] characterized 275:22 321:9 charge 103:15 charged 39:14 chart 179:18,22 447:7 check 148:14,22 149:9 156:22 157:14 158:3,8 403:22 checked 157:6 158:7,13 chicago 345:3 355:20 chief 14:11 31:8 96:14 126:7 319:20 321:1 324:7 325:1 326:4 443:22 choice 431:14 choose 181:18 chose 344:10,11 437:16 chosen 276:11 chris 14:12,17 126:3,7 266:6 312:11 317:9 443:21 444:12 445:4 christina 1:18 9:6 450:2,18 circle 329:10 circuit 134:5 243:5 circumstance 282:4 328:18 circumstances 46:3,14 51:20 52:9 53:2,14,16 54:4 187:15 408:4 408:10 citation 344:2 357:17 cite 347:12 355:18 357:17,18,21 362:7 cited 343:16,17 344:18 346:2 357:20 358:16 citizen 15:5 33:3 169:13 171:2 221:13 222:11 234:13 256:12 320:18 321:5 322:3,12 345:13 346:11,17 356:19 357:11 358:10 376:1 432:10 citizens 169:20 196:18 206:6,8 208:14,16 209:8 209:13 210:2,7,21 220:12 341:19 388:20 426:20 431:13 citizenship 7:2 14:5 20:19 21:11 22:3 23:3,9,15,18 24:5,10,13 25:2,17 25:19 26:3,9 32:21 33:7 35:6 40:16 41:22 42:5 42:15 43:3,21 46:20 51:9,14 52:20 53:21 56:2 56:8 57:3,9,14 59:3,11,18 60:20 62:3,22 63:2 64:6 65:17 66:4 67:1 68:17 69:6,12 70:2,16,21 71:9 72:4 73:4,18 74:9 Page 15 76:5 77:7 78:8,9 78:18 81:15 82:19 84:4 87:8 88:17 89:10,14 90:1,7,12 90:20 91:10,22 92:9,14,20 93:3,10 94:1,21 95:8 96:22 97:4 100:4 100:9,12 101:1,6 101:15 106:22 109:17 112:8,14 113:1,8,22 114:18 116:16 118:15,19 119:13 121:7 122:9,16,19 123:18 124:8 125:14 126:22 127:6,15,22 128:4 128:8 129:8,13 131:20 132:11 136:1 137:15,20 138:2 141:8,10,17 142:13 144:12,15 145:9 148:2,3 150:6,10,14 152:14 153:8 154:2 156:1 161:8 161:20 163:19 164:7 169:2,19 171:4,10,20 172:6 173:9,15 174:1,11 174:15,21 175:3,5 175:13 176:1 181:4,12,19 183:5 183:13,15 184:8 184:15 185:16,17 186:8,10,14 187:10,22 188:5 188:12,18 189:4 189:10 190:13,22 191:10,21 192:8,9 192:14 193:5,9 194:9 197:11,13 201:5,12,12,17 202:2,7,11,14 203:7,21 206:21 207:16 210:11,18 212:17 213:18 214:6 215:4,9,18 216:12 217:3,19 218:1,2,18 219:8,9 219:12,14 220:18 221:17 222:5,7,9 222:20 224:10,19 225:12 226:17,19 227:9,17 229:2 230:4 231:10 233:6,14,18 234:17 235:2,4 238:13 239:15 243:19 256:3 257:3,22 259:1,8 259:10 264:10 269:22 271:16 272:3 283:7 284:4 284:9,19 290:8 293:13 294:4,11 294:16,21 295:3,9 295:22 298:6,14 299:10 300:3 301:19 313:5,10 313:22 316:6,21 317:6,11 318:12 320:13 321:3 322:1,10,17 323:2 323:11 324:12 325:3,12 326:11 326:21 327:20 328:8,15 329:16 331:2,6,17,18 332:3,14,20 333:11,20 334:8 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [citizenship - comments] 334:14 337:10 338:18 339:10 342:12 345:12 353:6 354:21 355:21 356:18 359:5,7,21 360:3 360:12 361:3,11 361:22 362:16 363:6,9,13,18,22 364:6 365:8 366:8 367:8,21 375:8 377:22 379:11 381:5,18 382:8,16 383:3 385:7,9 388:9 401:16 403:10 404:3,20 405:10 406:16 407:13 408:11 409:8,12,16,20 410:16 411:6 413:4 417:7,19 418:6,13 421:19 422:2,7,8,12 424:9 424:14,17,22 426:4,19 427:1,11 427:22 429:12 431:3 434:9 435:8 435:9 436:9,10 437:10 438:1 439:5,9,15,20,20 440:18 441:19 442:12,16 445:15 city 1:16 2:14 3:4 7:3,4,6,7 10:2,6 345:2,3,3,4 348:22 350:15 355:19 357:22 358:22 362:8 363:3 414:5 civ 299:2 civil 2:3,16 3:15 14:11,14 18:17,21 19:2,5,8,16,17,19 19:21 20:2,10,12 20:13 31:16 44:10 44:11,12,22 65:4 95:3 119:21 120:2 133:15 134:12 135:1 137:1,6 142:1,3,6 150:16 151:22 152:13 153:1,16,20 212:3 249:18 259:13 286:11,12,17 289:11,12 295:6 322:6 323:14,15 325:10 327:18 328:7 414:22 445:14 446:19 cjs 331:15 claim 189:10 190:21 194:9 203:14,20 204:7 204:15 237:2,7 243:8 244:4 245:21 318:7 319:10,11 363:10 382:5 431:2 claims 15:2 56:3 77:19 185:14 207:8 241:1 346:17 431:8 436:19,20 437:2,4 437:5,11 clarification 60:5 86:12 88:18 107:20 clarify 17:21 233:16 257:16 271:5,17 clarifying 96:1 classic 125:6 Page 16 clause 434:13 clause's 181:15 clean 143:9 clear 32:19 37:6 81:1 91:12 115:22 164:5 172:14 190:2 198:21 244:2,7 246:19 271:7,9 291:21 338:2 374:22 clearance 156:20 clearly 107:5 clerks 134:4 client 16:14,17 401:9 clients 16:14,16 clock 261:6 close 392:11 393:6 closehold 126:11 129:17,19 130:2 131:12,14 closely 45:6 coalition 1:3 2:2 8:17 9:18 11:12 451:1 452:1 453:1 code 407:21 408:8 coffee 285:18 cold 87:11 197:2 colleagues 116:18 collect 25:13,14 213:20 282:6 299:11 366:7 382:16 collected 36:10 37:9 78:18 165:6 171:2,10 174:6,15 174:21 201:17 202:2,8,14,21 225:21 228:3 300:9 381:1,5,8,9 382:9,12 383:8 collecting 25:10 79:6,13 167:20 169:18 170:2,8,13 203:2 274:13 275:2,17 276:12 299:18 426:18 collection 25:17 119:22 120:16 167:21 384:19 collects 215:5 college 75:11 167:22 columbia 1:20 10:18,20 450:20 column 178:14 179:11 349:13 351:21 352:19 354:5 360:7 363:5 combination 276:3 combine 391:4,5 combining 353:3 391:8 come 40:10 64:17 98:2 147:8 160:15 160:18 302:15 306:15 309:10 327:12 342:14,15 342:17 378:5,8,17 403:20 422:21 comes 25:21 390:7 430:16 comey 68:13 coming 16:2 134:12,22 comma 373:4 comment 248:17 298:20 299:8,15 299:20 300:7 comments 135:20 135:22 444:4,12 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [comments - concerns] 444:14,21 445:18 commerce 1:7 4:3 8:18 11:1,3 37:20 40:21 43:16 45:5 58:12 59:9,15 61:7,19 62:21 64:2 66:10 67:9 67:20 81:12,19 82:5,17 83:8,9,19 83:20 84:4,16 86:15,17 91:3,4,14 91:16,19 93:10 94:20 95:7 96:15 97:20 98:1 100:16 101:12 112:13 116:11 117:17 121:20 122:4 137:11 150:15 153:10 163:21 164:22 218:11 276:7,14,21 277:6 278:8 304:22 319:6 323:6 328:18 332:1,12 332:18 333:18 334:6 370:1,9,16 371:10,13,16 372:15,18 399:19 400:1 402:17 411:12 438:10,12 451:2 452:1 453:2 commerce's 41:1 293:11,17,21 294:10 315:14 373:9 446:20 commission 46:8 450:21 commit 306:17 307:2 commitment 23:21 26:11 308:2 Page 17 371:20 373:3 374:3 403:16,18 committed 301:21 307:16,19 committee 2:16 26:22 27:10,11,16 27:17,20,21 28:2 28:15 29:6 35:9 40:6 103:8 316:9 316:9 371:11 446:8 common 431:9 communicate 45:15 130:12,14 137:22 410:7 439:7 communicated 75:16 114:16 147:8 154:5 160:9 160:13 163:20 270:12 272:17 273:11 290:10 291:5,10 340:20 341:3,5 409:6,8,11 409:15,19 410:1 434:8 443:4 communicating 89:20 259:3 communication 63:17 83:4,7 89:18 228:20 437:21 439:3 communications 46:7 61:5 76:12 94:19,21 95:2,7 150:5 228:12 community 15:10 26:2 48:7 49:6 57:14,17,19 58:2 81:16 178:6 195:17 234:9 368:13 376:17,18 377:1,6 378:8 384:1 390:9 compact 15:21 376:2,12 377:6 386:17 compactly 376:13 compared 78:9 324:1 327:9 comparing 285:13 compel 106:21 301:14 304:12,21 305:11 307:20 308:22 310:4,19 311:11 compels 302:11 303:14 307:5 308:6 complete 23:17 24:4,12 26:8 30:2 38:7 50:15,16 56:12 206:17 211:3 219:21 281:7,12 323:18 353:15 378:2 392:19 421:1 423:1 completely 76:13 281:9 314:2 379:13 completeness 41:7 46:11 completes 219:20 compliance 174:7 181:1,14 182:11 182:13 183:2,14 354:2 355:1 379:14 431:6 complicated 432:1 comply 181:5 185:2 376:19 437:7 complying 17:12 181:22 432:19 comports 179:1 composition 207:16,17 393:15 394:15 425:1 compound 37:17 75:7 153:3 158:16 230:8 346:6 356:4 356:7 430:6 446:22 comprehensive 392:18 comprise 375:22 compulsory 29:7 computer 18:6 379:5 computers 379:8 comstock 58:11,16 81:1 comstock's 58:18 73:15,21 77:11 79:10 conceded 319:11 conceive 392:6 concern 185:18 238:14 239:17 322:8 324:14 326:20 concerned 325:10 concerning 23:2,8 72:3 101:14 118:19 293:12,15 294:11,15,20 303:13 concerns 81:12,14 81:18 82:4,6 84:15 186:15 230:6 231:11 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [concise - contend] concise 370:17 371:14 372:19 conclude 326:11 concluded 38:4 276:10 278:4 321:22 449:9 concludes 94:9 156:9 232:9 286:3 397:13 449:5 conclusion 43:1 212:22 214:9 280:5 327:13 346:14 347:6,8 386:20,22 387:10 387:20 conduct 366:11 433:19 conducted 55:17 258:8 275:6,19 321:21 322:9 324:8 326:7 328:14 338:5 339:1 366:15 conducting 55:13 182:21 433:18 conference 410:12 410:15,20 411:20 412:2,15 conferences 39:9 confidence 195:13 195:16 196:11 199:6,16,21 200:4 200:5 230:20 387:17 388:17 389:12 390:11 confidential 126:11 129:16,18 130:2 131:12,13 301:14 302:12 303:14 305:12,15 307:6,21 308:7 Page 18 309:1 310:5,19 311:11 confidentiality 301:22 303:7,16 304:4 confirm 31:7 275:12 447:1 confirmation 279:14 conflicts 263:4 conform 298:21 380:2 confusion 100:15 congress 28:10 29:15 162:22 163:12 170:11 246:3,5,10,19 247:4,7,18 249:1,9 274:22 275:14,15 275:18 276:4 278:10 279:3,18 280:1 281:2,8,10 287:4 288:1 295:2 297:16 309:16 317:5 318:11 342:6 370:15 congressional 248:4,16 335:20 370:3 391:15 392:3,9 400:7,9 congressionally 316:9 congressman 32:19 40:19 301:6 305:5,16 308:18 congresspeople 279:19 congresswoman 297:19 connect 104:7 162:2 connected 111:7 connection 121:6 122:4 214:14 connotates 448:14 consecutive 177:5 193:2 consider 131:11 289:8 342:21 366:17,19 383:9 387:6 439:14,18 considerable 419:21 consideration 72:14 269:16 360:3 considered 124:1 131:13 247:1 285:11 considering 68:9 71:20 387:5 considers 180:6 246:12,14 247:16 consistent 24:11 24:15 30:4 70:11 71:4 72:11 75:22 82:13 99:4,18 104:20 106:15 108:10,17 109:3 109:11,21 110:7 112:3 113:15 124:16 125:18 136:11,18 138:10 254:2,10 265:8 273:2 285:7 290:2 291:18 310:13 311:1 337:1,21 344:7 396:11 401:11 402:22 412:22 413:8 419:16 420:3 428:18 438:19 440:4 consistently 76:15 constantly 39:7 constitute 345:15 356:21 357:13 358:12 376:12 384:1 386:17 constitution 4:4 314:4 365:21 366:10,10,13 367:5,13 386:8 436:22 constitution's 183:2 431:6 constitutional 366:1,6 367:14 437:2 constraints 279:21 construing 387:2 consult 14:10,14 consultant 45:10 313:22 consultation 92:12 consulted 90:10 90:17 91:4 92:8 contact 65:10 85:1 85:11 86:8,9 87:6 88:7 410:10 447:18 448:12 contacted 405:6 contain 317:17,22 contained 123:21 124:5 163:21 198:8 218:14 containing 314:8 contains 317:22 342:12 354:7 contemporaneous 74:2 contend 363:10 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [content - correct] content 48:6,7,13 48:14 49:5 52:2,3 52:12,13 66:13 106:19 107:6 112:6 263:8,10 contentions 353:1 contents 107:16 context 337:4,9 376:16 continually 354:20 continuation 105:8 continue 8:11 342:14,15,17 348:11 382:16,20 continued 152:19 continuing 93:13 contrast 191:22 195:20 199:6 200:18 contrasts 197:17 198:22 199:9,20 230:21 contributed 412:15 conversation 63:16 74:19 75:17 76:3 77:6,22 79:3 83:14,16,18,19 84:3,9,11 89:1 92:13,19 93:2,8,18 93:22 97:13,16 98:7,13 99:7,10,13 100:13,21 101:3,8 101:9,10,13 102:16 106:2,18 106:19 107:16 112:7 113:8 115:2 115:10 127:22 128:3 132:5 Page 19 137:10,14,14 139:10 159:22 172:19 192:20 263:9,11 264:3 266:21 267:2,7,10 268:2,7,21 271:11 338:10,15 339:8 399:3,9,11 435:4 438:4,15 439:2 conversations 8:7 59:15 61:8,12,17 61:22 62:21 63:4 63:8,14,15 64:5,8 66:10,13,14,22 67:6,8,10,12,16,21 68:4 69:14,15 74:1,2,3 75:4 82:18 92:16 93:12 93:14 98:10,11 107:7 117:12 128:7,11 129:2,4,5 129:7,13 136:6 137:18 141:15,21 142:5 150:14 151:16 153:9 262:20 263:6 270:15 310:16 311:3,17 327:16 328:5 338:21 339:5,13,17 340:17 397:1 399:4 407:10 423:16,16,18 434:20 convert 235:21 236:8 convey 101:19 173:12 196:10 263:14,19 conveyed 86:8 263:17 264:12,13 267:22 conveying 150:1 268:17 444:11 conveys 317:18 copied 110:15 444:2 copy 22:7 131:3 139:1 348:21 356:15 358:16 415:21 416:10 446:7 corner 240:21 312:22 correct 11:17 14:21 15:3 16:5,6 16:12 17:3,6 18:4 18:5,9,10,14,18,19 19:2,3,5,6,9,10,13 19:14,21 20:13,16 20:21 21:3,12 22:5,18,21,22 23:5 23:11,12 24:6,7 27:4,7,18,19 29:2 29:3 30:8,11 31:3 31:5,12,16,17,19 32:7,8,11,12 33:5 33:11 34:1,2,6 38:13,14,18 45:2 45:15 46:1,18 47:16,17,20 48:14 49:15,22 50:7 51:2,5,9,15 52:3 52:13 62:3 64:13 65:4,5,8 67:14,22 69:6 70:17 73:20 76:6 80:8,14,15,21 81:5 82:19 83:10 83:21 84:5,6 94:22 95:1,4,5,8,9 96:7,11,12,15,16 96:19,20 97:1,2 99:9 100:4,9,10,14 100:15 101:1,6,15 102:13,14,17,18 102:21,22 103:2,8 103:16 104:1,5,6 106:3 109:18 111:8,9 116:5,9,12 116:13,19,20,22 117:17,18,21,22 118:3,4,20,21 121:3 126:5,6,8,11 126:12,14,15 127:1,2 133:7,8,15 133:16,18,19,21 134:5,6,7,10,15 135:1,2,6,7,14 136:3,4 137:11,12 137:16 139:6,7,11 139:13,18,19,21 140:4,5,7,16,17,20 140:21 141:13,14 142:9,10,16,17 143:18 144:4,8,12 145:17 146:15 147:3 148:4,5,8,11 149:17,18,21,22 150:7,8,12,13,16 150:17,19 151:2 152:2,3,7,8,17,18 153:2,5,10,16,17 154:8,9,10 155:19 156:3 159:1,2,6 160:3,4,8 161:21 162:3,5,14 163:13 163:16 164:9,10 164:13,16 168:20 169:4,7 170:3,9,10 170:15 171:14,17 171:18 172:1,8,9 172:18 173:7 174:2,3,12,13,17 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [correct - course] 174:22 175:1,7,8 175:15,19 176:12 177:1,6 178:15,16 179:4,5 180:2,17 181:1 182:3,11,14 182:16,17 183:21 184:11 188:3,4,7 188:19 189:5 190:14,15 191:1,2 192:7,11,12 197:15,16,21 198:15 199:4,5,18 199:19 200:1,10 200:16,17,20,21 201:2,3,8,9,14,20 202:5,17,18,20 203:9,17 204:1,2,9 204:10,17 206:1,8 208:16 210:7,21 211:2,10,15,16,22 212:2 213:22 216:13 217:4,15 217:16 218:3 219:15 220:10,13 220:14,18 221:9 221:17 224:13 225:1,16 226:22 228:4,18 229:4,11 229:20 231:12 233:22 234:22 235:7,8,12,17 236:2,4,11,18 237:4,10,18 239:2 240:3 241:10,21 242:16 243:6,9,10 243:21 244:5,6,9 244:10,13,18,19 245:2,3,8,16,17,22 246:1,3,8,9,16 247:2,8,12,18 249:18,21 250:2,3 Page 20 250:9,10,13,15 251:11,15,21 252:8 253:5,19 255:3,6,12,13,21 258:1,13 259:2,10 259:18 260:17,21 261:13 262:6,15 267:13 268:3 271:16,17 272:3,4 272:12,13 273:14 274:15,16 275:10 280:13 281:21 282:2 283:14 284:7,10,12,15,16 284:21 287:17 288:5,10,11,18 290:15 292:3,4,7,8 293:7,20,22 294:1 294:7 295:4,6 297:13,16,17 298:9,10,18,19 299:8,14,19,20 300:4,19,22 301:1 301:3,4,7,8 303:9 303:11,17 305:1,2 305:6 306:2 307:16,22 308:8 309:2 312:11,12 312:15,16,18,19 313:6,7 314:10,16 314:17 315:7,8,10 315:11 317:12 318:17 323:17,19 324:3 329:17,18 330:2,3,14,17,18 330:21,22 331:3,4 331:9,15,16,19,20 332:16,21 333:3,6 333:13,14 334:8 334:10 338:20 339:16 341:20 342:1,2 343:20,21 349:22 350:5 353:10,11 355:13 357:14 362:9 367:4 370:5,6 373:18 375:16 376:2,9,20,21 377:19 378:3,14 379:1,2,3 380:16 380:17 382:11,13 384:3,8,10 389:2 391:1,18 392:4 393:5,8,10 394:8 394:10,19 398:14 398:15 404:18 406:1 410:17 414:14,15 419:13 427:14,16,18 430:13 432:13 436:20 437:13,14 440:12,13 453:8 corrections 451:7 451:9 453:10 correctly 24:1 147:2 234:20 260:10 265:9 302:17 321:9 340:7,16 345:17 349:19 361:8,15 361:16 correspondence 84:19 corresponding 81:4 cost 256:16 259:1 264:8 268:15 274:14 275:10,21 278:21 281:5,21 council 410:6 counsel 1:14 5:3 6:17 8:16 9:12 11:11 43:22 44:11 44:13,14 45:10 47:14 98:1 103:7 114:7 134:14,21 139:16 140:3 252:21 303:6 307:15 335:6 344:16 414:4 450:9,13 counsel's 117:16 count 33:13,17,19 33:21 34:4,11 35:20 36:14 37:3 37:12 78:2,7,18 172:7 175:14 176:1 195:21 196:7 197:19 198:14,18,22 199:3 200:1,19 206:6,21 210:16 210:19 228:22 230:3,22 231:7 313:13 362:18 363:16 364:9,9 381:6 383:21 384:17 392:1 401:20 402:4,9,12 432:15 county 251:4,16 couple 93:14 120:1 141:9 159:11 242:12 250:21 340:1 414:8 415:18 416:21 421:5 422:21 423:7 course 17:20 39:6 113:7 219:3,17 270:2 280:5 319:2 359:3,4 361:4 393:11 418:9 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [court - data] Page 21 court 1:1 7:3 8:20 9:6 11:4 12:11,14 16:16,22 17:20 43:8 54:16,18 92:2 106:20 107:9 190:7 194:14 204:11 243:5,16 244:21 309:15 340:1,8 345:19,20 345:20 346:1,9,14 347:16,18 348:21 350:4 353:22 354:5 355:17,17 360:11,16 361:2 362:15 363:8,11 363:17 376:16 379:10,18 384:2 388:2 418:15,16 451:19 court's 251:3 354:20 360:3 386:15 courtesy 28:7 448:22 courts 193:13 345:11 356:17 359:20 380:7 383:19,20 387:5 387:17 433:12 cov.com 3:6 cover 76:11 coverage 341:14 342:13 covered 14:3 72:14 250:21 252:18 339:5,9 covering 211:19 covington 1:16 3:3 9:1 create 431:19 433:5 critical 421:20 422:4 426:5 428:1 criticized 200:9,11 critics 313:5 crr 1:18 crt 6:15 81:10 301:3 crucial 422:7,8 cry 75:12 cures 380:5 current 48:6,13 52:2,12 97:21 250:11,18 251:18 328:3,4 341:22 343:1 383:3 currently 18:16 181:12 184:8 185:3 186:10 226:6,21 228:17 229:18 233:8,21 401:19 425:5 433:8 cut 12:17 43:18 92:1 cutrona 102:7,21 103:1,6,14,21 104:4,7 105:9,13 105:15 106:3,5,7 107:22 108:13,20 109:6,14 110:2 111:8 265:21 cvap 15:7 16:10,22 36:9,20 37:9 38:11 39:3,19 77:13 78:2 79:6 79:13 135:5 140:15 165:18 166:4,15 167:3,4 170:2,8,14 184:10 184:16 187:9 193:17,18,21 203:14 205:21 215:17 216:7,11 217:18 220:15 221:12 222:15,18 224:8,11,20 226:3 226:6,18,20 227:8 228:3,14,17 229:15,19 230:3 231:7,8 233:4,9,17 233:20 235:6,9,15 235:21 236:8,9,17 236:17 237:4,10 237:17 238:9 239:12 240:8 241:10,20 242:7 242:15 243:13 244:5 252:13 253:4,17 254:6 257:2,21 258:10 259:17 264:8 265:15 266:3,12 267:12 268:14 269:6 271:14 272:1 273:14,20 274:8,13 275:2,8 275:18 277:11,20 278:19 279:5 281:13,20 284:3 284:15,21 286:13 286:19 287:13,17 288:9,14,18 289:13,16 290:7 299:11,18 300:8 314:15 347:2,20 353:2 354:8 359:11 360:17 362:1 384:3 387:7 391:16 393:2 394:6 420:14 424:20 425:6,9 429:18 430:3 432:18 437:19 d d 3:1,8 4:1 8:1 410:3 d.c. 1:9,17 2:4,12 2:17 3:5,16,19,20 4:4,19 9:2 64:19 dale 2:2 dale.ho 2:5 damaging 313:20 dan 4:7 9:4 danielle 102:7,20 104:11 110:16 265:20 data 6:6 16:10 17:1 18:1,9,12,13 23:18,20 24:4,12 24:16,20 25:2,3,5 25:10,14,18 26:4,9 32:21,22 33:4,7,14 33:19 34:4,11 36:9 37:9,10,12,13 38:6,7,12,13 39:3 39:7,7,10,19 42:19 51:9 55:1,8,13 56:2,6,12,14,18 57:3,10,11,15 58:4 58:10 67:22 77:13 77:17,21 78:2,7,18 79:6,13 135:5 140:15 165:18 166:4,15 167:3,4 167:20 168:2,6,16 169:18 170:3,8,14 171:20 172:3,6,16 172:17 173:5,6,10 173:15 174:1,6,15 174:21 175:5,6,13 175:14 176:1 178:20 180:2,7,13 181:4,12,22 182:7 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [data - dated] Page 22 182:8 183:1,6,13 183:15,16,17 184:3,6,9,10,10,14 184:14,14,15,16 184:17,18 185:4,4 185:7,8,13,16,16 186:10,11,12 187:9,9,22 188:5,6 188:11,12,12,18 188:18,18 189:4,4 189:10,11,11 190:13,13,14,22 190:22 191:1,10 191:10,11,21,21 192:1,8,9,11,14,21 192:22 193:5,6,7,9 193:13 194:2,10 194:11,16,20 195:7 197:11,13 197:19,22 198:8 198:11,14,18 199:1,4,22 200:9 200:15,19 201:1,5 201:7,12,12,17 202:2,7,11,14 203:14,22 204:8 205:9,21 206:17 206:19,20,21 207:1,7,11 208:21 208:22 209:1,2,17 209:20 210:11 211:3,6,8 212:4 214:19 215:17 216:1,7,11,18,22 217:13,18,21 218:1,7,19,20 219:1,8,12,18 220:6 221:12,15 221:18 222:5,7,15 222:18 223:7,17 224:2,3,5,8,11,20 225:14,19,21 226:3,6,18,21 227:9 228:3,14,17 228:22 229:2,15 229:19 230:3,21 231:7,8 232:21,22 233:1,4,7,17,20 234:2,6,9,17,17 235:2,4,6,9,15,21 236:1,8,10,17,18 237:4,10,18 238:10 239:13 240:8,8 241:10,20 242:15 243:9,13 243:15,19 244:5 244:22 245:12 246:8 252:13 253:5,17 254:6 256:11,14,16 257:2,11,12,21 258:10,12,21,22 259:17 264:8,15 265:15 266:3,12 267:13,17 268:15 269:6 271:14 272:1 273:14,20 274:8,13 275:2,8,9 275:18,21 276:12 277:11,20,22 278:19,20 279:5 281:5,13,20 282:6 282:7 284:4,15,21 285:14 286:13,19 287:5,7,13,17 288:9,14,18 289:14,16 290:7 298:7,16,22 299:3 299:11,18 300:9 301:15 305:15 314:15 318:2 321:3 322:8 323:17,19 325:13 425:6,9 426:4,18 327:1 328:10,21 427:1,11,15 337:10 340:21 429:12,18 431:5 341:21 342:1,4,13 432:2,15 433:12 342:16,21,22,22 433:13 434:9,9,10 343:2,3 346:3,3 435:8 436:9 347:21 348:16 437:19 439:15,20 349:16,22 350:4 440:15,19 441:4,8 350:12 351:14 441:17 442:1,2 353:3,3,9,10,13,16 databases 379:13 353:17,18,22 date 20:22 21:4 354:13,15,17,21 27:13 51:20 52:1 359:5,5 360:4,12 52:9 60:17,18 360:13,17,17,18 62:1 72:1,13 361:9,12,17,18,19 73:14,16 76:3 361:22 362:4,16 77:6,11,22 79:3,10 363:6,9,11,13,18 117:10 141:12 364:6,9 366:8 159:9 160:11 368:13 375:9,14 177:8 179:8 180:4 377:2,14,16 378:7 198:6,12 241:15 378:11,13,14,21 255:19 259:7 379:21,22 380:8 262:22 266:16,18 380:11,14,21 272:10 273:10 381:5,6,7,19 382:8 274:3 291:8 382:10,16,21 296:13,15 316:14 383:3,8,21 384:3,5 318:10 332:16 384:14,15,17 349:6,7 384:19 385:8,10,13,14,15 400:2 442:20 386:3 388:9 443:6 451:11 389:19,21 392:1 453:15 392:13,19 393:11 dated 22:18 47:8 393:12,16,17 73:21 80:3,19 394:1,2 395:8,12 102:7 105:13 396:2,3,16 397:2,3 111:5 115:20 397:3,5,6 401:20 116:8 126:4 143:2 402:4,5,10,12 145:7 254:19 417:4,7,19 418:6 256:2 274:18 418:13,14 420:11 292:18 293:6 421:1,3,3,4,19 297:13 300:19 422:3,7,8,12 424:7 303:6 315:9,21 424:14,17,20 330:14,20 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [dates - deliberative] dates 73:22 160:10 76:15 77:10 93:14 194:3 263:7 264:1 119:13 126:20 293:16 144:8 145:8 dating 241:3 147:22 148:2,18 david 4:2,3 10:22 148:20 149:16,17 11:2 149:20 154:7 davidson 92:4,22 155:17 158:1,12 93:2,7,12,17 97:14 158:13 159:5,5,14 97:17 98:2,4,8,10 159:20,21 160:7,8 98:14 122:2 160:21 180:5 137:11,15,19 255:19 259:7,21 138:1 139:11 263:1 299:9 300:1 davidson's 97:19 315:21 316:4,15 day 27:1,3,6 28:4 343:7 362:8 385:4 28:12,18 30:1 401:14 406:1 73:10,11,11 75:8,9 435:6 436:7 82:1,21,22 83:17 437:20 439:10,18 116:19 118:9 443:3,6 444:7,18 139:10,11 150:7 decennial 20:20 163:15 275:14 21:12 22:4 23:4 290:9 23:10 25:16 26:1 days 59:5 81:1 33:21 36:10 37:10 96:9 111:7 128:18 37:11,13 49:7 128:22 146:8 73:4 78:7,19 79:5 159:11 249:8 79:12 89:10,15 451:16 90:7,13 156:2 dc.gov 3:21 169:2,16 170:1,7 deal 358:4 170:12 171:7 dealing 54:16 183:18 184:4,13 61:13 191:20,21 192:11 deals 304:3 192:15 193:6,19 debate 302:15 194:5,10,16 195:7 306:15 309:10 195:21 197:19,22 dec 6:3 198:7,18,22 199:3 decade 193:14 199:22 200:19 313:15 348:15 201:1 210:17 383:2,21 384:8 228:15,22 229:3 decades 409:4 229:15 230:21 december 20:18 251:22 258:1 21:2 22:18 47:11 275:1,16 279:6 60:20 62:3 70:19 314:16 338:19 Page 23 343:3 347:21 366:20,22 367:15 377:12,17 380:21 401:17 421:19 422:3,12 426:16 decide 41:1 decided 35:5 54:19 70:15 287:5 340:7,16 442:14 decision 28:11 35:3 41:12 44:6 76:4,14,18,20 77:1 77:5,9 107:17 109:17 132:6,16 142:12 144:11,14 144:19 148:1 154:1,5 161:19 167:10 251:3,4,17 259:9 269:10,19 269:22 270:8,22 271:2,9,21 272:5,7 272:14 273:17 274:1 276:9 279:17 284:1 285:9 287:6,22 288:3,4 290:5,10 290:13,17,18,19 290:21 291:1 292:2,5 293:12,17 293:21 294:3,11 295:21 296:11 318:5 319:9 329:12,15,20,21 329:22 336:9,12 336:13 337:5,9,12 338:17 345:8 346:16 364:5,15 403:15 404:1 405:8,15 442:21 443:1,1 446:20 decisional 76:11 292:1,7 decisionally 72:19 declaratory 399:19 400:6 declaring 400:6 decline 320:13,18 321:4 363:22 declined 204:4,7 360:11,16 363:17 declining 194:20 decrease 389:20 decreases 195:15 203:17 388:16 389:14 390:16,21 390:22 deemed 451:18 defend 402:17 defendants 1:8 3:13 4:2 10:16 16:5,8 352:3,22 353:22 354:14 defense 396:1 defensive 44:9 deficient 346:4 definition 375:20 442:2 degree 167:17 delay 105:21 108:13 deliberation 269:11 270:1 deliberations 71:8 72:2 73:3,17 74:6 74:8 132:5 295:8 295:20 311:8,17 337:4,11 deliberative 21:15 59:21 62:10 66:19 70:5 71:2,12 72:15,17,19 74:14 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [deliberative - deposed] 75:19 76:8,10 78:22 82:8 97:9 98:21 99:16 104:18 106:9 107:16 108:5 112:1 113:11 124:11 125:7 136:9 138:6 206:11 269:8,18 270:15 272:22 285:1 289:7,19 291:13 293:16 295:13 310:8 311:4 336:19 337:16 338:16 339:5,9 344:5,13 396:5 401:7 407:3 419:1 428:14 438:17 440:2 delivered 119:3 demographer 386:16 395:21 396:14 demographers 397:1 demographic 39:11 demographics 385:1 demonstrate 15:19 375:21 376:11,18 377:1 demonstrated 169:16 426:16 demonstrating 354:22 demonstration 354:7 380:1 denise 2:7 9:21 335:8 397:8 department 1:6 3:8,15 4:3 8:18 10:10,12,14,16 11:1,3 13:6 16:2 18:18 20:17 21:1 21:6,10 23:2,8,14 23:17,20 24:3,9,17 24:20 25:4,13 26:4,11 28:5,9,10 28:11 30:4 32:20 33:2 35:4 37:20 38:7,11,22 39:1 40:20,21 43:16 44:7,8 45:1,4,7 46:6,16 47:16,20 48:5,19,21 49:4 51:22 52:11,17,19 53:4,9,11,15 55:12 56:11,15,22 58:21 59:1,4,6,9,10,15 59:16 60:19 61:6 61:6,9 62:1 64:22 67:8,13,19,20 68:14 69:19,22 70:15,20 71:7,19 72:2 74:20,22 85:12 86:15,17 90:11,18 91:3,4,8 91:14,15,19 94:19 94:20 98:1 100:16 102:21 107:3,9 116:11 117:17 119:11 121:20 122:4 123:16 124:1,6,6 125:13 126:21 127:4,13 131:16,18 132:4 132:10 137:11 138:1 140:19 141:2 146:3 149:14 150:15,19 Page 24 153:10,15,19 155:18,22 161:7 161:18 162:2 163:10,18,21 164:7,22 165:2,5 169:1,13,19,22 174:5,14,20 175:4 175:11,22 182:22 186:8 187:16,21 188:10 189:3,9 190:18 191:6 192:17,18,19 194:7,8,21 201:11 203:6,12,13 206:1 206:16 207:5 208:12 210:14 211:14 213:21 214:14 218:9,10 220:7 225:11 226:7,21 227:4,5 227:21 228:8,12 228:18 229:19 233:7 234:11 238:10 240:18 241:3 242:16 244:8 251:9 252:5 252:10,13 253:2 263:12 264:9,15 265:7,17 269:12 273:12 274:5 275:5 276:7,14,17 276:20,21 278:9 279:21 281:14,17 282:5 284:19 287:12,14 288:13 289:3,8 292:15,17 298:3,12 301:20 302:10 303:5 306:3,18,19 307:3 307:10,15,18 308:2 309:13 313:9 316:5 323:4 323:6 325:13 326:22 328:18,19 328:20 332:2,13 332:19 333:7,10 333:12,19 334:7 334:13 339:15 340:20 341:2,6 343:17 355:15 357:6,16 361:5 365:11 374:9,14 374:16 384:11,13 385:5 399:5,18,22 401:16 402:16 405:22 410:22 411:11,17 412:9 415:1 419:7,20 420:10,22 422:9 422:15 423:9,11 424:1 425:4 426:19 427:20 428:2,4,6,8 429:1 429:18 434:18,22 436:22 437:2,8 438:9,11 441:10 442:15 447:19 451:2 452:1 453:2 department's 24:11 307:3 359:19 371:20 373:2 374:3 384:14 426:5 depend 383:20 depending 178:18 depends 154:20 322:7 323:16 deploy 225:6 227:18 deponent 453:5 deposed 11:14 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [deposing - disclosure] deposing 451:15 deposition 1:12 5:6 6:1 7:1 8:10 8:15,22 11:20 13:4,15 14:12,16 22:9 26:16 47:3 58:5 79:19 95:10 101:20 105:4 107:13 110:20 115:16 125:20 132:18 135:8 138:12 142:18 145:1 155:9 178:1 204:20 205:6 240:14 254:13 282:12 292:11 296:19 297:8 300:14 303:1 311:18 312:4 315:1 319:15 326:5,18 330:6 349:2 350:19 358:18 362:20 365:1 369:10 371:5 398:5 401:15 403:3 414:13 416:4 443:14 445:6 446:2 449:6,9 450:3,5 451:6,13 451:16,18 depositions 11:16 14:4 deputy 31:14 139:20 141:1 142:4 146:5 414:21 derive 172:16 173:4 237:3,9 derived 6:6 58:4 172:6 173:10 Page 25 174:1 183:17 201:6 205:9 207:8 208:15 209:19 214:20 216:8 217:2,19 225:14 226:19 227:9 229:15 235:10 362:17 363:14 deriving 236:16 describe 45:9 92:11,12 129:16 172:21,22 421:15 described 60:12 60:15 142:8 183:20 184:1 200:12,15 246:2 287:6 375:13 describes 228:21 283:8 296:8 describing 15:16 274:12 description 100:19 293:5,9 296:7 406:9 designed 298:21 desire 287:12 despite 281:16 363:12,21 detail 9:17 64:15 65:1 140:22 183:7 375:10 detailed 151:13 details 256:18 determination 53:5 278:8 280:7 322:22 341:16 386:15 determinations 342:2,7,18 determine 43:9 183:2 226:16 277:7 341:12 378:22 380:12 383:22 394:4 404:3 405:9,12 431:6,15,18 432:8 432:15,18 433:2,4 determined 285:9 363:12 determining 345:14 356:1,20 357:12 358:11 detrimental 368:16 devin 365:7,9,10 dewhirst 4:3 11:2 11:2 dhulett 2:10 difference 177:9 359:7 differences 430:15 different 38:3,17 38:19 61:13 72:20 152:20 172:22 176:9 179:17 183:6,16 184:10 184:16,17 185:4 186:11 189:11 190:14 191:1,11 199:8 224:1 238:11 248:8 253:7 254:6 259:16 295:17 368:13 375:9 394:10 431:5 difficult 77:3 difficulties 68:11 dilution 345:13 346:16 356:19 359:22 363:10 direct 320:15 354:4 363:4 369:7 375:4 directed 43:15 59:5 68:13 256:7 directing 259:9 294:3 329:15 342:6 direction 450:8 directly 302:8 305:5,10,22 308:17,18 358:3 director 36:4 47:9 64:11 164:15,19 165:3 166:3 255:11,22 256:22 256:22 257:7,18 258:6,7,17,18 275:4 280:12,16 280:19 341:12 directs 366:11 disaggregated 351:14 disagree 387:12 387:22 390:4 402:2 418:1,4 420:16,18 disagreed 372:16 disagreeing 415:17 disagrees 370:15 disclose 301:14 304:13,22 338:15 disclosed 189:19 disclosing 82:11 98:20 113:10 189:16 337:19 disclosure 13:11 21:14 71:11 124:10 189:13 211:21 213:6 223:8 224:7,17 227:8 228:1,14 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [disclosure - doj] 229:9,16 295:12 301:22 302:11 303:14 305:11,15 307:5,21 308:6 309:1 310:4,7,19 311:11 408:12 412:17 428:13 discontinued 174:19 176:15 discovered 100:19 discovery 115:22 133:2 138:22 discrete 276:14,17 discrimination 174:9 298:8,17 discuss 29:22 30:13 59:2 121:22 122:1 135:18 248:10,15 256:18 259:15 264:20 265:18 266:1,6,10 273:13,18 274:7 281:3,19 282:7 284:3,8,14 286:18 291:6 294:9 333:17 discussed 47:10 89:22 99:12 101:17 104:14 120:13 127:19 130:21 131:1,5,7 135:17 141:9,10 265:16,19,20,22 266:5,7,9 267:4,11 269:4 270:5,13 293:10 336:4,6 340:3 375:17 382:22 401:1 407:19 411:1,9 444:6,10 Page 26 discussing 84:18 400:16 416:11 432:5 discussion 99:20 271:12 398:4 401:4 413:15 414:1 441:1 discussions 120:9 151:11 338:3 406:21 disposal 24:18 235:15 254:6 dispute 20:22 32:20 39:12 305:18 422:6 disputed 207:4 dissemination 129:21 distinct 246:21 distinction 33:20 distinguishing 178:10 district 1:1,1,20 7:3 8:20,20 10:18 10:20 15:21 17:17 18:2,6 243:2 345:16 347:16 348:21 349:18 351:13 354:7 356:22 357:14 358:13 360:2 363:8 376:2,14,18 378:20 379:1 380:1,4,9 381:17 384:2 386:18 387:8,16 388:5,19 391:15,18 392:3,9 392:10,11 393:3,4 393:12,14,17,18 394:2,2,6,8,16,19 395:1,3,6,7,9,11 395:15,18,19 398:13 420:14 432:11 450:20 districting 431:17 433:3 districts 17:12 18:9 23:19 24:5 181:5 185:1 207:10 391:6 392:7,7 393:19 394:12 431:11,19 432:9 433:5 437:6 437:18 division 3:15 14:11,15 19:2,5,8 19:17,19,21 20:2 20:10,12,13 31:16 44:10,11,12,22 47:15 65:4 95:4 119:21 120:2 133:15 134:13 135:1 137:2,7 142:1,3,7 150:16 151:22 152:13 153:2,16,21 212:3 259:13 286:12,12 286:17 289:12,13 295:6 323:15,16 325:11 327:18 328:7 414:22 445:14 446:19 division's 423:19 divulged 442:10 divulging 21:17 60:1 62:9 66:18 70:4,8 71:15 72:9 74:16 97:11 99:2 99:15 104:17 106:13 108:9 113:13 124:14 138:8 206:13 238:3 253:12,21 285:4 289:22 291:16 295:15 310:10 336:21 396:8 407:6 412:20 419:4 428:16 divulsion 97:8 doc 96:19,21 100:7 docket 423:19 doctrine 401:8 document 6:11 26:14 31:6 38:1 42:8 47:1 58:9 79:17 80:11 84:20 95:14,17 105:2 110:19 115:14 116:2 119:22 120:15 132:22 135:12 138:16 142:22 149:3 155:14 177:18 205:2 240:12 292:10,18,21 293:1,5,9 296:18 297:2 300:12 302:19 311:22 314:19 315:16 317:16,17,19 319:13 320:2,5,7,9 322:5,15 325:19 331:6 445:21 documented 115:4 documents 13:6,9 120:16 314:18 317:14 330:11 373:15 443:12 doing 18:3 186:13 451:10 doj 6:7,10,17 14:20 20:1,9,13 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [doj - e] Page 27 31:16 40:15 42:4 45:15,18,20,22 46:10,12 48:11 52:1 64:13 76:15 80:5 96:19,21 100:7 108:3 116:2 117:9 133:2 138:22 153:13 188:1,17 190:1,11 195:5 203:15 204:4 211:7 233:20 235:5,15 235:20 236:6 237:1,1,2 239:11 254:21 255:16 256:3,6,17 259:6 260:6 263:2,16 265:14 271:14 278:20,21 281:3 283:6,12,14 284:7 284:12 287:8 288:16 293:2,10 301:11 329:13 351:17 353:9,12 353:13,14 364:5 364:16 370:18,18 370:21 371:15,18 372:15,19 377:21 378:1 381:16 382:3 383:9 396:1 396:15,18,20 401:19 402:9 406:15,21 418:19 418:20 424:3 436:17 437:11,12 439:12,14 443:13 445:5 doj's 78:3,8,19 205:20 258:10 284:14 300:10 359:17 437:15 doj.ca.gov 3:11 dollars 403:18 domestic 410:5 dorey 4:2 10:22,22 dorian 2:16 10:1 doubt 36:18 179:19 419:21 dovetails 192:20 dpc 373:12 dr 14:1 164:12,15 165:10,13,18 166:9 168:9 259:22,22 262:8 262:22 264:5 274:12 278:14,16 279:7 280:16 281:2 282:20 283:4 284:7,12 287:3 314:13,13 319:20 321:15 327:3 draft 6:13,16 31:4 126:11,14,16,19 126:20 127:4,13 127:19 128:12 129:10,14,22 130:4,6,13,15,19 130:22 131:2,4,8 131:14 132:8 133:6,10 135:22 136:15,22 137:5,9 141:8 142:8,9 150:9,22 151:5 152:5,10,16 293:11,21 294:2 294:10 296:11,16 297:7,16,18,22 301:3,5 302:6,8 305:4 308:18 343:19 373:13,16 444:4,5,12,13 446:20 drafted 150:9 152:5 301:17 305:9,22 319:20 343:19 368:10 drafting 123:17 124:2 131:19 132:10 343:22 drafts 130:9 132:2 444:18,22 drank 285:17 draw 181:5 185:1 185:13 207:10,13 218:18 343:6 354:6 394:12 395:6,7,9 431:10 433:20 drawer 184:20,21 207:13 434:4,6 drawers 185:3 431:22 432:1,7,14 433:9,10,11,15,20 433:22 434:21 drawing 17:11,17 18:2,9 33:20 180:21 184:21 388:19 393:19 396:3,17 drawn 18:6 376:13 386:7 393:18 394:3 434:3 437:6 draws 199:6 driven 25:3 208:22 353:18 dspence 2:19 due 105:22 227:8 228:13 229:16 241:9 243:9 244:4 245:21 251:3 263:3 417:4 duly 11:8 450:5 dunn 283:1 duties 19:11 65:7 65:9,13 e e 2:1,1 3:1,1,1 4:1 4:1,1 5:1,7,12,13 5:14,15,16,17,18 5:19,20,21,22 6:2 6:8,9,12,14,18,20 6:22 7:8,9,10,11 7:12,14,15 8:1,1 22:17,20 23:2,8 45:14,21 46:8,12 46:15 80:2,3,6,13 80:17,18 81:8 82:16 84:7,12,13 84:19,22 85:10 87:4 88:15 89:12 92:5,5 95:15 96:4 96:14,17,22 99:8 100:12 101:5,14 102:2,3,6,10,10,11 102:15 104:8 105:8,12,15 106:5 110:11,15,16 111:2,5,5,10 112:17 115:12,20 116:4,10,14 117:11,15,15 126:3,10,13,17,20 127:18 133:3,6 135:13 137:10 138:17,18,18,19 138:20 139:4 141:6,12 143:1,2,6 145:6,7,13 148:21 149:5,7,12,15 154:22 254:17,18 255:1,2,3,5,8,10 255:14,17,22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [e - enforcement] 256:21 257:17 258:2 259:18,20 260:13,22 261:10 261:16,18 262:7 262:12,22 263:2 264:5 266:20 267:3,8 273:6 274:10,11,16,18 274:18,20 278:4 278:15 280:10,11 282:17,20,21 293:6,10,13 296:3 297:6,12 300:18 302:5,6 303:12 312:7,8,10 314:8 314:12 315:5 316:3,4 317:8 330:13,15,19 331:2,9 332:17 365:6,15 367:18 368:7,9 369:15,19 370:8 371:3,13 372:12,14,22 373:11,17,20 398:10,11,16 399:7 403:8,12,12 403:13,14 404:13 404:14 405:13 406:12 409:7 443:21 444:2,3,8 444:10,11 445:3,4 445:10,12 446:18 447:6,7,10,11,17 448:11 452:4 eager 105:22 109:6,15 110:2 eagle 75:13 earl 58:11 earlier 35:10 81:2 82:2 100:8 102:12 121:5 162:21 Page 28 165:2 188:2 242:21 245:4,13 290:12 329:11 375:11,12 407:20 431:22 440:7 441:1 442:3,13,18 earliest 72:1 early 58:19 65:1 73:7,9 126:20 141:19 150:11 151:6 152:4,15,20 260:2 385:20 easier 33:15 34:16 eastpointe 55:14 55:15 425:6 429:19 easy 368:20 369:4 economics 165:14 edit 298:21 370:22 372:21 373:11 edith 134:5 edits 135:20,22 136:14 142:16 143:18,19,20 144:1 145:10,16 145:19,20 146:8 146:14 147:15 152:6,10,21,22 153:12,20,22 156:20,21 157:22 158:2 370:1,9 371:9,14 372:15 373:10 444:4,13 444:15 education 377:7 377:16 378:19 educe 382:4 effect 325:11 328:8,15 effective 406:4 effectively 404:7 405:21 406:2 effectiveness 380:8 efficiently 404:6 405:11,20 406:8 effort 298:7,15 efforts 299:2 300:10 314:3 eight 221:5 382:10 either 50:22 73:6 73:10 94:2 135:4 140:10 141:16 158:10,12,14 159:1,4,19,20 160:1,5,7 165:7 186:2 266:19 336:4 374:21 381:3 388:7 395:14,22 406:1 421:2 437:4 elect 431:13 election 46:7 383:11 431:12 elections 385:16 386:6 electorally 431:20 433:6 electronic 116:1 138:22 elevate 87:12 88:8 else's 373:10 ely's 353:1 embedded 269:15 408:2 empirical 41:10 42:22 318:6 319:10,12 322:22 employed 48:18 52:17 339:15 365:10 404:12 434:7 439:7 450:10,13 employee 64:22 117:10 140:22 408:19 437:22 438:6,9 439:4 450:12 employees 91:5 266:4 enable 169:19 426:19 enacted 278:10 342:6 encountering 68:12 ended 29:1 75:12 enforce 19:12 32:22 33:4 67:22 169:12 174:8 437:9 enforcement 21:9 22:5 25:8 26:6 34:6 56:15 65:7 65:14 77:15 78:3 78:9,20 79:7,14 117:21 135:6 140:11 170:3,9,14 174:17,22 175:6 176:2 180:17 183:15 184:19 189:14 192:9 197:12 203:8 207:3 209:4 233:9 233:21 235:3 236:6 237:21 238:4 240:9 250:19 252:18 253:9,22 256:4 257:3 266:4 271:15 272:2 275:3,8 286:14,20 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [enforcement - evenwel] 288:15 299:1,13 300:10 301:15 305:1 308:8 371:21 373:3 374:4 383:2 401:18 402:6 406:4,9 407:2 408:13 421:21 422:4,9 426:5,8 427:5,15 428:1 enforcing 23:22 26:12 54:10 103:22 104:4 118:3 175:12 182:22 188:10 engage 186:19 187:5 238:19 239:6,7,8,21 240:5 308:14 327:4 383:6,17 385:19 engaged 185:9 202:22 295:7 395:21 enjoyed 28:19 enrique 255:18 283:1 entire 168:22 193:14 230:14 383:21 387:8 394:6,7,19 entirely 368:12 entirety 364:13 430:22 entities 276:17,18 entitled 178:6 entity 276:14 entry 292:20,22 293:1 enumeration 33:21 36:10 37:10 37:11,13 184:14 198:7 420:13 431:15 432:8 433:1 envisions 314:5 equal 38:10 181:14 207:10 208:12 431:10,16 432:16 433:3 equality 356:2 equally 85:13 447:20 448:13 eri 2:11 10:3 eric 58:19 errata 451:8,10,12 451:15 453:11 error 36:16 37:5 195:14 196:5,13 196:16,21 197:6,7 197:13,18 198:2,8 198:14,19 199:2,4 199:18,21 200:5,6 200:10,13,16 201:1,7,13,19 202:4,17 203:8,16 203:22 204:9,13 224:12,22 225:4 225:15,18 226:3,5 226:20 227:10 228:2,17 229:4,9 229:16,18 230:4 231:8 232:18,21 233:2,12 234:1 353:3,8 354:15 386:12 387:7,7 388:4,11,14,15,22 389:13,18,19,22 390:1,14,20,22 391:6,12,16,17 392:3,8,12 393:4 394:7,19 395:2,4 395:13,17,18,20 Page 29 errors 198:10 353:5 escalona 330:14 espoused 319:4 321:19 esquire 2:2,3,7,11 2:15,16 3:3,8,13 3:14,14,15,18,18 4:2,3 essential 207:17 establish 16:11 55:2 170:6 347:20 349:15,18 389:16 established 188:1 245:4 368:12 387:16 establishing 57:4 estimate 16:12 17:3 34:12 35:20 36:15,16,20 37:12 172:8,11,18 173:6 173:11 174:2 193:2,3,10 197:1,7 203:16 204:12 206:7 208:15 209:7,12,14 210:6 210:11,12,19,20 341:17 349:17 388:11 391:12 432:9 estimated 235:20 236:7 estimates 33:22 34:5 36:18 37:4 57:14 58:3 77:14 78:4,10,20 171:22 175:7,14 176:9,10 176:11,13,14,19 176:21,22 177:3,4 177:10,12,15 178:8,11,15,20 179:2,7,12,16,17 180:2,6 183:5 191:18,19 193:1 193:17 195:12 196:6,6 197:5,18 199:1,2,16 201:19 202:3,12,17 203:1 203:7 204:2,8 209:18 210:15 230:19 234:8,12 235:6 244:13,18 245:6,15,22 246:12,15,20,21 247:7,12,16 248:3 248:6,13,15 249:2 249:3 341:22 353:2 375:8 380:20 387:15 389:1,11 390:10 390:14 391:9,19 397:6 420:15 432:17 estimating 353:6 estimation 18:13 37:15 235:21 236:7,16 237:3,9 237:17 431:18 433:4 et 1:3,7 8:17,18 451:1,2 452:1,1 453:1,2 ethnicity 235:10 235:16 236:2,10 256:12 evening 414:7 event 214:12 events 117:8 eventually 265:21 evenwel 183:3 340:1,7 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [evidence - extent] evidence 41:10 exclusion 43:12 42:22 318:6 executive 64:12 319:10,12 322:22 412:18 326:8 378:7,17 exhibit 5:7,8,10,11 379:4,8,18 382:3 5:12,13,14,15,16 418:15,18 435:12 5:17,18,19,20,21 436:14 5:22 6:2,3,4,6,7,8 exact 128:21 213:2 6:9,10,12,13,13,14 266:15,18 443:6 6:15,17,18,19,20 exactly 83:2 93:4 6:21,22 7:2,3,4,6,7 93:11,21 97:18 7:8,9,10,11,12,13 98:11 99:11 7:14,15,16 22:9,14 101:17 119:6 22:15 26:15,16 128:14 137:21 32:16 47:2,3 58:5 145:18 147:19 58:10 79:18,19 159:12 272:8 95:10,15,21,21,22 275:13 279:11 101:20 102:3 324:19 357:3 105:3,4 110:19,20 360:21 375:12 115:15,16 125:20 408:16 415:14 126:2 132:18 442:22 133:1 135:8,13 examination 1:14 138:12,17 142:18 5:2 11:11 335:6 142:22 145:1,5 363:9 414:4 155:9,14 160:20 examined 11:10 162:21,21 170:19 example 196:15 177:20 178:1 207:12 327:6 204:20 205:3 380:7 424:6,18 230:16 240:14 excel 219:1 249:13 254:12,13 exception 12:21 282:12,16 292:11 exceptions 213:9 296:19 297:2,8,18 408:3,16 301:5,9,10 302:4 exchange 88:16 302:20 303:1,17 89:12 96:9 102:4 304:3 311:18 104:8 138:17 312:4,10,21 315:1 254:17 365:15,16 319:14,15 324:17 367:19 369:15,19 324:19,22 325:15 369:22 398:16 325:17 326:3 403:8 331:5,18,21 343:7 exclude 400:7 348:21 349:2 350:18,19 355:19 Page 30 358:16,18 362:20 363:2 365:1,5 369:10,14 371:3,5 397:9,22 398:5,9 401:15 402:1,3 403:3,7,8 416:3,4 416:8 426:1 443:12,14,18,20 445:3,6,21 446:2,6 446:7,12 447:14 exhibits 5:6 6:1 7:1,21 300:14 330:6,11 343:11 exist 176:19 existed 176:20 296:16 existence 238:7 296:10 existing 37:10 417:4 expanding 406:8 expect 168:13 220:15 328:1,4 391:15,21 expectation 213:17 220:19 expense 403:20 experience 16:7 16:19 17:11 18:3 18:7,8,11,15 28:19 103:22 104:3 118:2 134:14,20 135:3 140:3,11,14 167:20 168:1,5,9 419:8,11 experiment 394:13 expert 13:18,21,22 314:1 expertise 168:8,12 168:14,18 experts 185:9 193:16 256:18 259:6 313:11 expires 450:21 explained 42:20 explains 33:13 42:21 405:13 explanation 370:17 371:15 372:19 exploring 85:2,14 85:19 86:9,20 express 22:2 expressed 162:5 162:13 183:12 185:19 186:16 192:6 197:10 230:6 231:11 235:1 238:14 240:7 256:9 388:8 expressing 188:16 257:1,18 expressly 107:9 125:2 extension 313:14 extent 21:13,16 29:22 30:3 52:15 59:19,22 62:8,11 66:17 70:3,7 71:10,14 72:8 74:12,15 82:10 97:7,10 98:19 99:1,14 104:16 106:8,12 108:4,8 113:9,12 114:9 124:9,13 138:5,8 153:4 157:3 164:1 189:13,16 206:9 206:12 208:17 209:15 212:20,22 237:19,21 238:2 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [extent - fine] Page 31 250:13 253:11,20 267:20 285:3 289:21 291:15 295:11,14,16 305:14 309:18 310:6,9 336:17,20 337:15,18 338:7 346:20 380:12 396:4,7 402:19 407:1,5 412:19 418:22 419:3 428:12,15 436:21 442:4 extrapolation 36:17,20 37:4 extrapolations 58:4 397:7 eye 4:18 f f.3d 347:13 359:1 363:3 fabela 7:4 350:15 face 50:20 51:6,11 facilitate 132:4 402:6 437:15 fact 63:8,14 69:21 109:16 112:12,22 113:5,21 114:15 132:10,12,14 184:13,17 190:21 194:9 199:16,20 201:17 202:2,13 203:14,21 210:21 217:2 226:20 227:7 228:16 229:1,14 233:19 236:5,13 237:2,8 237:15 246:11 247:11 248:2,12 249:22 251:1 263:20 266:1,11 267:11 275:4 301:20 317:8 319:11 321:14 332:17 333:8,12 333:17 359:20 368:20 371:18 385:21 390:7,9,13 factor 363:9 364:1 facts 187:14 307:12 325:20 327:5,11 390:18 435:11 436:13 fail 451:17 failed 190:21 241:9 243:8,12 244:4 245:21 252:14 253:2,18 failing 241:16,19 242:15 fails 417:6,18 fair 17:14 19:15 89:16 103:3 127:3 127:12 142:11,14 146:12 190:8 250:20 313:14 348:14 354:18 355:4 371:20 373:3 374:3 418:19 423:6 443:20 446:21 fairly 415:10 fairness 199:11 fall 19:18 339:16 386:5 406:9 fallen 73:12 false 408:20 falsely 408:9 familiar 15:5,9,12 223:14 271:18 320:5 326:17 341:8 343:1 362:4 369:5 381:12 400:19 415:2 423:20 434:2 fan 75:11,11 fancy 47:22 far 50:11,14 140:2 140:13 178:14 179:11 201:10 230:9 241:8 332:5 332:9 334:4,9 farmers 7:3,4 345:2 347:12 348:14,22 350:13 350:16 354:11,12 354:19 fast 92:3 fault 352:16 favor 413:3 favorite 43:8 fear 301:18 features 178:10 february 282:22 federal 19:12 31:15 54:10 181:3 181:5 305:1 308:8 345:11 356:17 366:11 404:4 408:2,8 434:7,21 437:22 438:5 439:4 fell 423:11 felt 372:18 fewer 129:12 fifth 134:5 320:9 figures 400:9 figuring 408:21 file 116:1 184:6,15 185:16 187:9 188:6 191:9 194:20 252:14 253:2,18 256:13 257:12 258:11,21 392:20 418:13,20 filed 8:19 44:3 190:4,11,16,17,19 191:3,4 194:6,12 194:13,18,21 203:11,18 237:1,5 237:11,12 249:16 250:1 251:10,19 252:11,17,20 254:7 399:22 419:20 430:8 files 205:11 418:9 418:16 419:8 filing 191:7 252:6 392:22 400:2 fill 42:2 final 107:17 132:15,16 141:7 142:9 145:12,15 145:20 146:13 154:1,5,11,16,20 158:2,22 159:4 160:2,6,10,14,14 161:18 269:19 293:17,22 296:14 385:3 409:5 443:2 financially 9:10 450:14 find 25:4 41:10 81:10 86:16 141:7 318:5 343:13 370:16 418:14 429:10 findings 256:10 257:10,20 258:9 258:20 259:4,16 278:5 280:3 281:4 finds 354:6 371:14 fine 94:7 143:12 147:1 149:21 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [fine - foundation] 156:6 173:2 260:8 260:21 262:10 271:20 326:19 352:14 finish 12:16 62:13 161:1,10 322:18 429:4 finished 348:4 360:9 firm 9:4,7 117:8 firmly 280:5 first 11:8 12:9 15:12,16 16:11 17:1,12 31:4 34:14,22 48:2 55:2,20 56:4 57:4 57:5 58:18 69:16 73:2,6 75:14 77:22 80:4,18 81:4 86:7 87:4 92:7,18 93:1,22 94:6 95:17 96:4,5 102:5 105:10 111:3 127:4,13,21 128:3 137:9 139:4 141:15 150:5,21 151:5 152:16,21 155:15 161:2,5,13 161:13 169:10,11 182:20 204:19 240:21,21,22 249:20 250:1 253:7,14 254:20 255:9,14 262:12 273:6 274:19 296:15 313:8 316:2,19 320:3,10 331:21 335:11 347:12 351:21 354:9,11 355:12 364:12 375:5 Page 32 385:22 390:5 393:19 395:10 398:9 402:2 403:11 419:22 421:13 423:8 424:10 426:13 433:16 434:12 437:13 443:13 444:5 firsthand 49:2 five 28:13 129:7 129:12 176:10 177:3,6,10 178:7 178:11 179:12,16 180:1,6 191:19 193:1,2,10,10,11 193:17 194:4 203:21 204:2 208:5,10,14 209:21 210:5,6,20 212:8 221:1 244:18 245:6,15 245:22 246:8,14 246:20 247:6,11 248:3 251:10 342:3,18 343:4 flatly 309:20 fleshing 187:14 flipped 423:3 flores 315:6 florida 205:12 focus 431:12 foia 46:5,13 follow 52:6,16 94:17 115:9 156:17 175:8 222:13 386:6 390:3 following 54:4 118:10 158:10 229:22 260:13,20 353:1 357:18 370:14 385:10 follows 11:10 football 75:11 forecloses 56:7 foregoing 450:3,5 453:7 forgive 349:10 form 15:20 30:9 33:6 39:21 42:2 43:13 52:4 54:1 54:12 55:10,13 57:16 131:22 167:3,4 171:5,11 171:13,16,19,22 172:3,6,10 173:10 174:1,12,16,19 175:4 176:10 186:18 188:2,5 191:12 201:6,18 202:3,7,8,11,14,15 202:19,21 203:2 210:8,22 216:14 217:6,8,11 218:4,7 222:21 235:11 236:19 241:20 250:14 286:21 287:18 288:9 295:10 306:9 325:21 342:12 346:3 348:16 354:13 355:2 362:2,16 374:7,19 377:18,20 378:1 379:12 381:6,19 382:9,13 383:4 384:6 393:9 403:16,19 405:10 421:3 430:5 453:10 formal 65:6,9,13 formally 49:13,20 385:5 format 218:22 formed 21:9 former 438:8 forming 125:6 forms 39:18 55:7 56:1,5 57:3 165:18 166:4,15 168:15 184:22 277:11,20 fort 205:11 forth 46:15 forward 133:11 256:19 260:1 428:2,4,6,9 forwarded 46:11 46:15 313:1 314:11 forwarding 133:5 255:10 282:20 312:17 found 42:22 194:14 244:21 347:19 353:22 380:6 foundation 2:3 48:16 49:9 50:2,9 51:4 54:2,13 68:2 68:19 83:12 85:6 85:21 87:1 88:10 103:10 110:13 122:22 134:17 162:7,16 165:21 166:7,18 169:6 175:17 214:9 223:11 226:12 228:6 241:12 242:1,18 277:14 283:16 304:7 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [foundation - gardner] 309:4 321:7 322:14 332:8 333:1 334:16 350:2 448:17 four 170:22 182:16 193:10,11 240:6 320:11 361:6,6 382:5 447:11 fourth 3:20 6:10 23:13 163:6 232:2 234:4 292:16 302:5 313:18 frame 21:6 78:14 92:17 93:6,21 296:2 423:12 frequently 437:5 friday 1:9 8:3 149:15 150:2 261:13 262:4,9,18 263:4 265:1 front 18:5 21:3,20 22:7 31:6 34:9 37:22 38:2 91:2,4 91:13 95:14 133:14 139:17 153:14,15,20 160:21 230:16 249:12 275:11 318:21 377:20 415:20 fulfill 23:21 26:11 full 24:16,19 28:15 34:14 195:21 197:19 198:14,18 198:22 199:3,12 199:14 200:1,19 228:22 230:2,22 231:7 359:2 360:8 429:12 Page 33 fully 23:21 169:12 219:21 256:5 283:8 fun 28:17 function 56:13 185:6 fundamental 234:15 funding 404:4,7 405:11,21 406:6,7 further 36:19 42:20 68:9 135:18 152:10 212:2 234:11,12 235:5 248:10 264:20 359:5 384:18 397:6 407:18 450:12 furtherance 371:19 373:2 374:2 future 216:2 218:8 220:4 316:16 327:22 406:22 g g 8:1 gabrielle 3:8 gabrielle.boutin 3:11 game 75:14 gardner 3:13 10:15,15 13:10 14:6 20:4 21:13 30:9 37:17 39:21 42:7 44:16 48:15 49:8 50:1,8 51:3 51:10,16 52:4,14 54:1,12 55:10 57:16,21 59:19 62:7,15,17 63:5 65:18 66:5,16 68:1,18 70:3 71:1 71:10 72:6,16 74:11 75:7,18 76:7,13,22 78:21 82:7 83:11 85:5 85:20 86:5,22 88:9,18,21 90:14 90:21 91:11 94:7 95:20 96:2 97:6 98:19 99:14 103:9 103:17 104:15 106:8 107:6,15 108:4,15 109:1,9 109:19 110:5,12 111:22 112:15 113:9 114:9 121:8 122:21 123:20 124:9 125:1,10,16 131:22 134:16 136:8,16 138:4 146:16 147:16 149:2 153:3 154:13 156:5 157:3 158:16 160:16 162:6,15 164:1 165:20 166:6,17 167:6 169:5 175:16 185:20 186:17 187:3,12 189:12 190:5,8 191:12 206:9 208:17 210:8,22 212:20 214:8 215:10,20 216:14 218:4 219:16 221:21 222:21 223:10 226:8,11 228:5 229:5 230:7 231:13,19 232:5 236:19 237:19 238:16 239:2,18 241:11,22 242:17 249:6 250:14 253:6,20 254:8 269:7,13,15 270:2 270:4,9,19,21 271:2,6,8 272:21 277:13 278:1 279:8 280:14 281:22 283:15 284:22 285:20 286:2,21 287:18 288:19 289:18 291:12 295:10 297:4 303:18 304:6 306:9 308:9 309:3 310:6,21 311:6,13 312:2,7 317:13 318:18 321:6 322:13 324:16 325:14 327:2 332:7,22 333:21 334:15 336:17 337:15 338:7 339:11 344:4 346:6 347:5 348:3,6,9,11 350:1 350:6 352:15,17 355:2 356:4,9 372:5 374:7,19 381:20 383:12 386:19 387:9,19 389:3 393:9 396:4 397:8,12 398:1 401:5,22 402:19 407:1 412:16 413:6,12 418:22 419:14 420:1 428:12 429:4,7 430:5 434:11 435:11 436:11,13 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [gardner - gmail] 438:16 440:1,20 443:7,10 446:22 448:16,20 449:3 gary 22:17 23:2,8 47:9,10,14 48:2 53:7 80:3,7,19 81:5,18 82:4 84:9 84:14,18,22 85:11 85:18 86:7,10,18 87:5,13,18 88:3 89:1,7,12 96:10 143:2,6 144:16 145:7 148:22 149:7 150:1 151:2 151:8 154:21 155:17 158:1 161:17 170:17 177:8 179:8 180:4 180:10 198:6,12 198:13,17,22 199:2,5 202:1 228:21 229:14 230:10 234:3 236:5,14 254:18 254:19 255:2,6,10 255:18 256:1 259:7,21 260:7,14 260:19 261:1,4,5 261:11,20 262:2,8 262:9,14,21 263:14 264:4,18 264:21 265:11 266:15,17 267:2,7 267:15 268:9,12 270:5,12 273:7,17 273:22 274:11,20 278:17 283:5,13 283:18 284:1 290:10 300:1 314:11 315:5,12 316:5 317:10 Page 34 342:8 343:9 353:14 367:7 372:18 398:11,12 400:18 417:6,17 418:5 420:9,20,21 421:7,18 422:1,2,5 426:3,3 431:1,2,4 432:4 433:10,14 435:5 436:6 447:17 448:7,9 gary's 82:16 84:7 88:7 263:2 448:11 gather 265:6 gauge 380:8 gc 81:9 gene 68:13 411:1 general 3:9,19 18:17 19:20,22 31:15 47:14 64:4 64:16 65:2,11 75:2,5,10,17 76:4 77:7 78:1 79:4 82:18,21 83:8,17 83:21 84:3 97:22 99:21 100:3,14,22 101:12,18 103:2,5 103:6 105:17 109:15,16 111:16 112:12,19,22 113:22 114:16 115:1,3,6 117:16 139:17,21 141:1 142:2,5 146:5,5,6 147:13 151:14,15 157:21 160:18 162:4,9,12 163:8 163:11 213:11,15 249:17 265:22 266:10,13 268:3 268:21 270:14 271:12 272:6 274:9 290:14,16 291:10 292:1 301:12 306:4 315:17 329:12 331:19 335:17 336:2,5,7 338:4,11 363:11 384:3 386:4 414:21 442:19,21 general's 10:20 generalizable 173:4 generalized 172:16,17 173:6 generally 77:16 87:20 151:11 198:9 224:4 357:19 379:20 384:4 generate 235:6 237:17 generating 259:17 gentleman 438:4 geographic 180:7 195:15 197:15 203:17 236:9 245:1,7 246:15 247:2,17 248:14 388:12,16 389:14 390:15 391:11,13 geographical 211:8,19 235:22 geographically 376:12 geography 33:10 185:5 238:12 389:20 391:7 gerrymandering 77:19 436:19 437:4,11,17 gestures 12:11 getting 18:1 43:10 156:20 gingles 15:14,17 16:11 17:1,13 55:3,18,21 56:4 57:5,5 346:12 349:18 354:1,22 356:1 363:6 364:1 376:10 380:11 387:1 419:22 423:14 424:8,10 425:7 426:7 427:1 427:6,11,16 430:2 430:16 give 30:12 57:7 63:9 71:18 73:22 78:14 84:8 99:19 135:12 150:8 158:14 187:9 193:16,18 206:22 211:18 213:13,20 214:2,18 215:16 221:12,15 248:20 279:13 285:8 355:6 403:7 423:1 423:2 given 68:11 154:19 269:11 287:12 306:18 326:5,21 379:10 423:19 453:8 gives 216:7 219:7 giving 45:10 146:8 186:10 239:12 444:21 gleaned 405:19 glossary 195:16 390:8 gmail 45:22 46:16 46:19 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [go - guys] Page 35 go 8:12 12:6 27:14 28:14 30:14 53:1 156:7 160:3 173:13 185:3 220:8 252:5 254:22 316:17 329:2 334:21 349:11 352:1 375:3 394:12 408:21 417:12,16 425:14 435:22 446:12 447:14 goal 24:11 281:12 281:15,16 404:5 goes 323:21 370:16 373:5 374:5,17 going 8:3 12:6,15 22:13 38:1 58:9 94:4 102:2 105:2 110:18 132:22 148:22 155:13 161:1 170:18 186:12 189:12,22 190:2 191:6,9 195:18 205:2,8 212:15 213:19 214:18 215:8,16 216:1,2,11 217:1,6 217:8 218:1,7,20 219:13,18,20 220:17 221:11,15 221:16,18 229:8 232:6 239:8 240:12 249:11 252:16 285:17 296:17 300:12 302:19 311:22 314:18 319:13 322:11,20 323:21 324:13 327:22 328:9 329:3 335:1 341:7 354:10 361:7 363:2 364:21 371:2 382:1,2 389:19 393:3,6 397:9,21 413:13,21 414:9 416:2,19,20 418:15 425:13,16 426:1 428:2 432:6 442:1,14 445:20 447:15 gomez 301:6 305:5 305:16 gomez's 308:18 good 8:2 43:15 261:6 392:21 404:8 414:7 gore 1:13 5:6,8 6:1 6:15 7:1,16 8:15 11:7,14 22:9 26:16 45:13 47:3 49:7 58:5 72:21 79:19 94:17 95:10 101:20 102:8 105:4 107:4,8 110:20 115:16 125:20 132:18 135:8 138:12 142:18 145:1 148:18 155:9 156:17 161:3 162:20 167:15 168:16 173:11 176:2,11,15 178:1 178:12 182:2 186:7 188:13 199:14 204:20 221:7 232:17 240:14 254:13 270:5,12,13 282:12 286:11 289:5 292:11 296:19 297:8 299:16 300:8,14 301:3,11 303:1 311:18 312:4,11 315:1 317:4 319:15 328:17 329:10 330:6 335:8 349:2 350:19 358:18 362:20 365:1 369:10 370:2 371:5 398:5 403:3 414:7 416:4,8 435:2 439:18 443:14,18 445:4,6 445:10 446:2,6 449:9 451:3 452:2 453:3 gore's 106:21 gosre 116:4 gotten 370:14 437:3 government 28:3 28:6 64:19 88:1 339:20 366:11 370:1,4 371:11 404:7,8,9 405:11 405:20,21 406:3,6 406:7 434:7,21 439:4 446:9 gowdy 29:6 43:6 graduate 167:17 graduated 134:9 granted 106:20 granular 393:16 394:1 great 40:18 94:8 126:9 403:20 greater 248:13 354:7 greatly 234:18 greenbaum 2:15 5:4 10:5,5 413:20 414:6,7 416:2,7 419:10,18 420:5 428:20 429:8 430:10 434:14 435:1,15 436:16 438:22 440:6 441:14 443:11,17 445:2,9,20 446:5 447:3 448:19 449:2 greetings 315:12 gross 317:15 ground 12:6 group 18:12 36:19 209:11,18,20,22 210:2,5,12 234:9 235:4 236:17 345:15 356:21 357:12 358:12 376:7,11 388:21 389:21 424:22 431:20 433:6 groups 391:4 431:13 grows 391:7 grunts 12:12 guess 38:14 43:10 56:6 89:17 91:12 154:20 270:17,22 372:10 382:19,20 389:15,16 442:11 guy 369:9 guys 205:4 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [h - ho] Page 36 h h 92:5 138:19 half 87:9 415:12 415:13 halloween 89:2 hamilton 68:13 411:2 hand 178:14 179:11 240:21 312:22 349:13 354:5 363:5 397:21 398:9 handed 207:13 322:5 371:21 373:3 374:3 handful 141:20 handing 145:5 handled 43:17 44:10 295:6 handley 14:1 hands 353:17 handwritten 118:22 122:13 125:12 hankey 58:20 64:2 66:11 75:3,5 happen 220:4 289:5 327:22 382:1 happened 61:18 83:2 218:9 316:16 412:2 423:18 430:12 434:20 happy 40:9 72:20 135:18 248:10,17 260:14 279:12 318:22 415:21 421:10 448:21 hard 33:13,17,19 34:3,10 35:20 36:14 37:3,12 41:9 42:21 78:2,7 78:18 139:1 172:7 175:14,22 196:7 206:5,21 208:13 210:16,19 276:9 318:3 364:9 381:5 383:20 384:17 392:1 401:20 402:4,9,12 432:15 harm 323:22 hcvap 349:15 head 19:1 165:8,9 259:14 286:11 289:11 322:6 323:14 325:10 362:18 363:15 364:9 header 178:19 240:22 heading 421:12 hear 423:15 heard 37:2 85:12 223:16,18 267:15 375:19 447:19 hearing 6:15 28:16 29:12,15,15 31:5 32:7,11,13 35:9,11,18,19 36:1 36:2 301:3 331:15 370:2,5 371:12 heart 173:13 held 8:22 16:22 30:20 204:11 345:12 356:17 357:1,3,10 359:20 376:16 383:19 hello 335:8 help 32:13 371:4 437:10 hereto 450:13 herren 14:12,17 126:3,4,7,13 127:19,22 128:4,8 128:12 129:8,20 130:3,8,14,18,21 131:7 133:6,10 136:2,22 137:5 151:1,7 152:2,6,10 152:16,22 266:6 312:11,17 313:1 317:9 443:22 444:4,12,14,19 445:4 herren's 445:17 hi 111:10 high 353:2,8 354:15 389:2,18 higher 256:15 258:22 264:8 268:14 274:13 275:9,21 278:20 281:5,20 highest 256:6 hindered 396:3,16 hired 133:20 134:1 hires 133:17 hispanic 353:2,7 354:8 430:12 442:7 historically 235:9 history 168:22 ho 2:2 5:3 9:17,17 11:13 13:14 14:7 20:8 22:1,12 26:19 30:15 38:9 40:1 42:12 44:18 47:6 49:3,11 50:4 50:13 51:7,12,18 52:7 53:8 54:5,21 55:19 57:18 58:8 60:9 62:13,16,19 63:12 66:1,8 67:4 68:6 69:1 70:13 71:6,21 72:13 73:1 74:21 75:15 76:2,10,17 77:4 79:2 80:1 82:15 83:15 85:9 86:2 86:19 87:3 88:13 88:20 89:3 90:16 91:1,17 94:4,8,16 95:13,22 96:3 97:15 99:6 100:1 102:1 103:13,20 105:1,7 106:17 107:14,19,21 108:12,19 109:5 109:13 110:1,9,17 111:1 112:5,20 113:17 114:14 115:19 121:12 123:1 124:3,18 125:8,11 126:1 132:7,21 134:19 135:11 136:13,20 138:15 142:21 145:4 146:21 147:20 149:6 153:6 154:17 155:12 156:7,16 157:9 158:20 160:19 162:11,19 164:4 166:1,13 167:1,13 169:9 175:20 178:4 186:5,21 187:6,18 189:20,22 190:7 190:10 191:15 205:1,4,7 207:19 209:5 210:13 211:5 213:3 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [ho - identified] 214:16 215:14 216:4,20 218:15 220:1 222:2,3 223:5,15 226:9,15 228:10 229:13 230:12 231:17 232:1,7,16 236:21 238:8,20 239:3 240:1,17 241:17 242:6,20 249:10 250:16 253:13,15 254:4,12,16 269:10,14,21 270:3,7,17,20,22 271:4,7,10 273:5 277:17 278:11 280:9,18 282:3,15 283:21 285:16,22 286:10 287:9 288:2,21 289:1 290:4 291:20 292:14 295:19 297:1,6,11 300:17 303:4 304:1,8 306:21 308:15 310:1,15 311:4,7 311:21 312:3,8,9 315:4 318:9 319:18 321:12 323:8 324:21 326:1 327:15 329:2,9 330:9 332:10 333:5 334:3,18,21 375:13 386:12 407:19 429:6 440:7 441:1,4 442:3 hold 263:12 264:21 290:13 316:20 317:19 Page 37 318:1 335:12,19 346:2 355:21 364:14 holds 335:17 336:2 holiday 150:2 home 141:5 homeland 68:14 honestly 281:10 hope 29:14,17 168:17 hopefully 20:7 hotsko 1:18 9:7 450:2,18 hour 94:5,5 232:6 397:9 415:13,13 hours 105:19 414:12 house 26:21 27:10 27:15 58:20 313:14 386:5 392:9 409:20 411:16 446:9 household 169:3 171:14 172:10 220:12 households 171:6 171:17,20 176:5 320:19 321:5 322:3,12 houston 7:7 362:8 363:3 hovakimian 151:12 265:20 huh 60:10 143:4 163:1 212:9 324:10 347:14 huhs 12:12 hulett 2:7 5:4 9:21 9:21 335:7,9 337:3 338:1,14 340:5 344:9 346:8 347:10 348:4,8,10 348:12,20 349:5 350:3,10,17 351:1 352:16,19,21 355:8 356:7,11,13 358:15,21 363:1 365:4 369:13 371:8 372:8 374:10 375:2 382:7 383:15 387:4,14 388:1 389:8 393:21 396:13 397:11,20 398:2,8 401:13 402:8 403:2,6 407:11 413:2,10 413:18 human 221:9 hypothetical 167:7,9 185:21 186:1,18,20 187:3 187:5,5,14 208:18 208:20 210:9 212:21 215:21 216:15,16 218:5 220:4 221:3,7,20 229:22 230:7 231:14,15,20,21 231:22 238:17,18 239:6,9,19,21 240:5 287:1,20 288:19,20,21 308:13,14 324:1 327:5,21 381:21 382:1 383:5,13,14 383:18 384:9 389:4,5,9,15 390:6 390:12 392:7,10 440:21 441:2,22 hypotheticals 390:17 i ian 315:13 idea 87:2 88:12 165:22 166:2 219:22 249:8 266:2 267:12,16 360:1 ideal 180:13 182:8 182:10 183:13 184:18 192:8 197:12 235:2 240:8 388:10 identifiable 218:13 identification 22:10 26:17 47:4 58:6 79:20 95:11 101:21 105:5 110:21 115:17 125:21 132:19 135:9 138:13 142:19 145:2 155:10 178:2 204:21 240:15 254:14 282:13 292:12 296:20 297:9 300:15 303:2 311:19 312:5 315:2 319:16 330:7 349:3 350:20 358:19 362:21 365:2 369:11 371:6 398:6 403:4 416:5 443:15 445:7 446:3 identified 304:11 404:19 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [identify - information] identify 35:15 168:11 207:1 209:3 392:21 394:21 404:22 417:6,18 418:5,8 420:10,20 identifying 207:18 identity 87:21 ignoring 431:21 illustrations 421:18 imagine 38:15 157:20 160:11 168:7 172:11 201:9 218:10 339:3 374:16 378:8 379:7 381:9 418:11 immigrants 400:8 immigration 1:3 2:2,15 8:17 9:18 11:12 64:12 103:15 401:20 402:10,13 451:1 452:1 453:1 immune 408:12 imperative 451:14 implement 404:7 405:21 implementing 406:3 implicate 253:9 437:6,18 441:6 implicated 181:10 242:5 307:9 implications 364:15 important 29:12 29:15 30:7 131:15 256:20 284:18 424:9 429:13 imposes 358:9 359:10 impressions 293:15 294:15,20 improve 418:15 improving 256:2 imputed 198:10 inaccuracies 368:16 inaccurate 368:19 415:19 416:14 422:20 429:10 430:19 inadequate 417:7 417:19 418:6,12 include 23:3,9 43:7 49:13,20 60:19 73:17 106:22 123:18 143:19 178:18 213:20 295:8,21 322:17 323:10 338:18 351:7 353:17 406:3 442:7 included 20:19 41:2 70:22 72:4 74:9 77:8 143:21 146:4 153:13 171:4 215:18 271:12 301:20 316:7 327:20 355:12,15,16 357:9 includes 215:4 274:11 293:14 442:2 including 42:15 65:16 66:3 93:2 93:15 122:8 185:10,17 186:14 Page 38 187:10 230:4 231:9 238:12 259:1 261:12 262:4 264:10 271:15 272:2 287:2 316:21 385:15 401:7 404:3 433:22 inclusion 24:10 40:16 42:5 43:12 51:14 64:6 90:12 90:19 91:9 92:9 92:20 122:15 259:10 294:4 300:2 317:11 321:3 322:1,10 324:11 325:3,11 326:11,20 329:16 344:12 income 377:8,17 inconsistent 309:21 inconvenience 397:2,4 incorporated 125:2 incorporates 360:1 incorrect 184:1 200:2 increase 388:15 increases 195:14 197:14 203:16 388:12 389:13,21 390:14,20 391:1 incremental 42:1 independently 373:19 indian 429:14 430:1 indicate 222:8 238:6 299:1 312:13 424:11 indicated 208:4 398:19 indicates 179:16 208:5 299:15 324:11 326:7 indicating 42:4 48:12 317:11 322:9 359:7 indication 360:18 361:13 indirect 320:17 individual 23:15 39:6 86:15 209:10 209:19 210:4 211:9,11,20,21 213:5 214:19 215:1 216:11 254:22 357:16 395:4 407:12 408:18 439:21 individual's 214:13 individuals 35:15 71:19 74:19,22 87:21 89:21 91:15 91:18 92:8,19 93:9 151:1 341:2 407:22 433:17 inevitably 405:5 inference 218:18 320:12 inform 124:4 273:22 395:9 information 13:11 21:14,17 23:15 35:2 50:21 59:20 60:1 62:9 66:18 70:5,8 71:2,12,15 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [information - introduce] 72:9 74:13,16 75:19 76:8 78:22 81:11 82:8,11 86:16 87:8 97:8 97:11 98:20 99:2 99:15 104:17 106:9,13 108:5 112:1 113:10,13 123:22 124:5,10 124:19 125:5,12 131:18 132:2 136:9 138:6,9 165:6 167:10,11 171:11 178:15 179:12 185:1 189:14,17 195:10 206:10,13 211:19 213:20 214:3 217:7,9 218:13 223:2,22 224:2 237:20,22 238:4,6 248:20 253:12,22 256:3,7 264:17 265:6,13 268:13 269:8 272:22 274:21 285:1,4,14 289:19,22 291:13 291:16 294:7 295:12 304:14,22 305:12 307:6,22 309:2 310:5,7,10 310:20 311:12 325:18,20 327:11 327:19 333:13 336:18,21 337:16 337:19 344:5 359:6 361:3 379:4 396:5,8 401:6 402:20 405:18 407:2,6 412:17,20 419:1,4 424:9 428:13,16 431:4 438:17 440:2 442:5,5,10 information.dec... 145:9 informed 273:17 274:5 informs 116:10 infusion 223:8,17 223:21 224:18 inhabitants 378:20 inherently 363:12 initial 67:10 150:9 152:5 274:11 343:19 initially 370:21 372:15 374:17 initiate 67:20 95:6 initiated 67:6,8,13 83:9,19 84:3 94:22 95:3 150:16 150:18 410:10 input 136:22 137:5 150:22 151:3,7,10 152:1 152:13,20 inputting 156:21 inquire 107:2 inquiry 394:11 instance 16:17 157:7 282:9 328:22 393:20 395:10 419:19 instances 20:15 384:21 institution 308:2 instruct 13:12 21:18 60:2 62:11 66:20 70:9 71:3 71:16 72:10 74:14 Page 39 75:21 76:9 79:1 82:12 97:9 98:22 99:17 104:19 106:10 108:6 112:2 113:14 124:15 136:10 138:7 237:22 253:10 254:1 264:21 269:9 273:1 285:5 290:1 291:17 310:11 336:22 337:20 344:6 396:9 401:10 402:21 407:7 412:21 419:5 428:17 438:18 440:3 instructing 238:20 238:21 instruction 63:6 63:10 70:12 71:5 72:7,12 76:1 82:14 99:5,19 104:21 106:16 108:11,16,18 109:2,4,10,12,20 109:22 110:6,8 112:4 113:16 124:17 125:17,19 136:12,17,19 138:11 254:3,9,11 273:3 285:8 290:3 291:19 310:14,22 311:2,14 337:2,22 344:8,15 396:12 401:12 403:1 413:1,7,9 419:15 419:17 420:2,4 428:19 438:20 440:5 instructions 451:5 instrument 165:8 insufficient 16:10 17:1 insufficiently 204:13 intend 382:18,19 intended 177:12 179:2,7 intends 177:14 223:7,22 245:12 247:22 382:16 402:17 intentions 328:3,4 interact 20:9 interaction 88:15 89:7,9,13 interactions 20:1 20:6,12 interest 376:19 377:1,5 378:8 interested 9:10 112:18 130:5 186:22 187:8 450:14 interfere 8:9 interference 8:7 interject 234:12 interrupt 62:18 221:21 352:4,12 443:7 interrupted 33:18 interval 195:13,16 199:7,17,21 200:4 200:5 230:20 388:17 390:11 intervals 248:6 intervener 437:4 interview 314:2 introduce 348:20 363:2 369:14 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [introduce - jurisdictions] 379:4 introduced 102:20 introduction 81:8 398:10,11 investigation 392:22 investigations 207:3 209:3 invitations 31:21 invite 31:18,21 32:2,4 invited 27:21,21 28:22 31:1,10 32:6 412:5,7 invoke 107:10 involved 17:5,16 17:18 43:16,20 44:1,6 64:21 73:2 73:6,16 74:5,7,18 93:18 295:3,20 310:16 311:3 412:8 415:5 437:3 involvement 61:2 296:8 involving 15:2 69:17 77:17,19 429:13,19 issuance 439:17 issue 40:14 41:9 42:20,22 54:20 59:5,11,18 64:10 65:16 66:3 67:1 69:12 70:1 71:20 79:16 86:17 88:16 89:14,21,22 90:6 91:16 93:19 96:19 96:21 100:7,9 123:22 131:15 141:9,11,21 150:6 161:20 213:12 226:14 236:14 242:5,7 243:19 245:2 257:15 258:19 264:19 268:8 277:3 278:18 279:17 283:20 306:1,19 307:8 308:20 309:14,15,16 318:8 319:6 325:21 336:14,15 339:10 340:2 342:9 345:13 356:18 359:21 382:22 387:13 407:18,19 408:5 410:13,15 412:8 415:7 425:17,21 438:13 439:8 issued 35:2 41:13 132:16 276:8 329:15,20 435:6 436:6 issues 29:22 77:16 92:13 130:22 131:1,8 142:6 302:14,15 306:14 306:15 307:8,15 309:8,9 314:1 348:18 378:12 400:3 415:3 423:17 439:14,19 item 316:7 446:16 j james 59:5 64:3,11 66:11 68:8,9,13 92:5 116:10 jan 6:17,21 january 254:20 260:2,7 261:4,11 261:13,16,17 262:4,8,13 263:3 Page 40 265:1 266:20 267:3,8 269:2 272:12 273:8 274:3,14,19 303:6 312:10,14 314:9 315:9 319:19 365:6 jarmin 35:21 36:3 155:18 164:13,15 165:10,13,18 166:9 168:9 255:11,17 256:1 259:22,22 260:7 260:14 261:4,12 261:20 262:2,8,14 273:7 274:12 278:14,16 280:16 282:17,20 283:4,5 283:17 284:7,12 314:13,13 jarmin's 166:9 262:22 264:5 279:7 281:2 287:3 jay 398:12,18 399:3 400:18,20 400:21 jersey 385:17 jesse 151:14 jgreenbaum 2:18 jimmy 301:6 jmd 47:15,18 81:9 298:21 jmf 1:6 job 100:16,19 jobs 432:1 john 1:13 8:15 10:5 11:7 47:9 85:11 87:6 105:20 106:6 270:12,13 319:20 410:1 412:10 414:7 435:2 439:18 445:4 447:18 449:9 451:3 452:2 453:3 john's 299:2 joined 205:10 jon 2:15 jonathan 2:3 9:19 jones 116:19 134:5 jose 2:14 10:2,6 414:5 josh 3:13 10:15 62:13 76:10 96:1 238:20 270:3 judge 43:11 134:5 judgment 34:18 34:19 35:1,13,14 36:9,13 37:8,20 38:17,20 39:15 167:5,11,12 319:7 319:8 322:16 323:1,10 324:14 399:19 400:6 judiciary 3:19 103:8 july 18:22 48:4,11 48:19,20 49:5 june 297:13 300:19 398:11,19 398:21 399:1 jurisdiction 181:18 424:13 436:18 437:12 jurisdictions 25:6 180:21 181:17,21 182:21 192:2 193:12 207:2,10 234:10 250:21 341:13 381:14 431:10,16 433:2 433:18,19 434:1 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [justice - know] justice 2:11 3:8,15 210:14 211:14 10:10,12,14,16 213:21 214:14 13:6 16:3 18:18 218:10 220:7 20:17 21:6 23:14 225:11 226:7,22 24:9,17,20 25:4,13 227:4,6,21 228:8 26:5 28:5,9,10 228:12,18 229:20 30:5 32:20 33:3 233:8 238:11 35:4 38:11,22 240:19 241:3 39:1 40:20 44:7,8 242:16 244:8 45:1,7 46:6,16 251:9 252:5,10,14 47:15,16,20 48:5 253:2 262:10 49:5 52:17,19 263:12 264:9,15 53:5,15 55:12 265:17 273:12 56:15 57:1 58:21 274:6 275:5 59:2,6,11,16 61:6 276:18 279:22 61:10,19 62:22 281:18 282:5 63:1 67:13,19 284:19 287:12,14 68:10,11,16 69:5 288:13 289:3,8 69:11,20 70:1,15 292:16,17 303:5 70:20 71:7,19 307:10 309:14 72:2 74:20 75:1 313:9 316:5 323:5 90:11,18 91:9 328:19,20 332:2 94:19 95:7 102:21 332:13,19 333:7,9 107:10 119:11 333:11,19 334:6 123:16 124:1 334:13 339:15 126:21 127:5,14 340:20 341:2,6 131:18 132:4,10 357:6 361:5 140:19 141:2 374:16 399:5 146:3 149:14 406:1 410:22 150:19 153:15,19 411:17 412:9 155:18,22 161:7 415:1 419:8,20 162:2 163:19 420:11,22 422:15 164:7 165:3,5 423:9,11 424:2 169:1 170:1 425:4 434:18,22 174:15,20 175:4 436:22 437:2,8 175:11,22 188:10 441:10 442:15 189:3,9 190:18 justice's 21:10 191:7 194:7 23:3,9 38:8 51:22 201:11 203:6,12 52:11 53:10,12 203:13 206:2,16 60:19 62:1 124:6 207:6 208:13 125:14 138:1 Page 41 161:18 187:21 281:14 365:11 422:9 k karen 283:1,4 karlan 7:13 14:2 414:14,16,18 416:10 418:3 421:7 422:19 423:8 424:3 430:18 431:21 karlan's 425:19 429:9 kathleen 119:21 kelley 283:1,4 kind 99:20 100:18 282:10 379:17 408:8 kinds 199:9 242:9 242:10 309:16 377:8 knew 96:14 116:21 198:13 435:16,18 436:3 know 31:20 32:3 34:22 38:15 39:5 40:19 45:6 52:16 52:18,22 58:16 64:20 65:15,21 66:2,6 71:18 73:20 74:1 83:2 83:13 84:10,10 86:10,20 87:17,20 88:7 89:17,17 97:21 98:4,11,12 100:5 101:2,9 103:11,12,19 104:2,10,12 107:10,11 111:11 115:8 119:20 120:6 123:2,3 130:18,21 131:5,6 131:7 134:8,18 135:19 143:20 145:18 154:4 155:3,4 164:3 165:16 166:8,14 166:19,20,21 167:9 168:4,9 172:2,2,5,12 173:16,21 176:16 176:17 181:9,19 186:1,3 187:7 188:8,20,21 191:8 196:14 198:11 201:11 202:20,22 206:4 210:18 211:6 213:2,9 216:5,17,21 217:6 217:7,20 218:6,19 218:20 219:10,17 219:18,19 220:5 220:21,22 221:2 221:14,18 223:13 225:5,19 226:2 227:15,16,17 229:11 230:1,10 231:18 233:11,17 233:22 235:13 236:12 239:10,15 241:8 245:10 247:20 249:2 262:17 265:3 268:4 272:8 273:15 274:17 276:2 277:18 278:2,3,16 280:21 283:17 285:16 288:8 290:18,21 291:4 300:6 303:21 305:17 307:8 324:19 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [know - legal] Page 42 327:5,7,12 328:12 332:6,9,11,15 333:22 334:1,4,9 334:11,17,19,20 335:16 336:1 341:1,6 346:21 348:19 350:7,14 355:3 356:5,14 357:15 361:19 368:21 370:10 373:12,13 374:21 376:22 377:3 378:15 379:2,7,17 382:15,18 384:20 385:2 386:11 388:20 389:6 392:5,13 393:13 402:14 405:16 408:6,14,16,17,20 409:4 411:21 412:1,4,12 414:16 414:17 415:22 418:16 423:17 427:8,9 434:17,19 435:6 436:7,15 439:12,13 441:1,6 441:7,11,22 442:22 448:18 knowledge 49:2 67:12 103:21 104:13 117:19 118:1 169:8 175:19 181:12 187:19 195:2 241:13 272:16 411:14,15,18 414:18 knowledgeable 195:3 known 287:21 361:10 knows 165:17 166:3 277:10,19 328:14 408:19 kobach 409:9 kopplin 3:14 10:9 10:9 kravitz 3:2 10:7 kris 409:9 krishnamoorthi 40:13 41:4 l l 2:12,16 138:19 labor 73:11,11 75:9 82:1,22 83:17 150:7 lack 48:15 49:8 50:1,8 51:3 54:2 54:13 68:1,18 83:11 85:5,20 86:22 88:9 103:9 110:12 122:21 134:16 162:7,15 165:21 166:7,18 169:5 175:16 214:9 223:10 226:11 228:5 241:11,22 242:17 277:13 283:16 304:6 309:3 321:6 322:13 332:7,22 334:15 350:1 448:16 lacks 420:11 lacour 3:14 10:11 10:11 laid 34:10 53:7 394:13 404:1 426:22 lamas 255:18 283:1 language 370:15 370:19,21 371:16 371:19 372:16 373:1 374:2,21 377:8,17 405:3 large 381:12,13,17 383:10 largely 30:10 larger 177:16 179:3 226:6 229:17 233:1 320:17 321:4 391:10 largest 179:17 late 73:6,8,13 94:2 150:2 260:15 273:9 latest 39:10 latino 350:12 430:12 latinos 388:21 law 1:15 2:16 8:22 39:15 41:3 53:19 54:8,22 55:5 117:8 134:4,9 181:3,9,10 186:2 189:14 211:12 237:21 238:3 252:18 253:9,21 280:7 301:13,15 302:11 303:14 305:1 308:8 373:4 407:2,16,17 408:2 408:12 421:14 laws 301:21 371:22 374:4 lawsuit 382:2 399:22 400:11,12 402:17 418:14,16 419:20 lawyer 16:15 126:9 369:4 lawyers 2:16 13:5 lawyerscommitt... 2:18,19 lays 25:9 84:20 leach 95:16 lead 41:11 70:19 320:13 321:4 leadership 143:8 143:10,17 144:3 145:21,21,22 146:3 147:9 149:9 153:18 156:22 157:6,13 283:6,12 284:7,13 leadership's 145:12,15 146:13 leading 314:1 336:9 337:11 338:17 leads 326:10 learn 84:14 87:13 287:15 288:17 learned 69:14 learning 186:22 324:9 leave 30:6 278:12 led 72:18 276:19 lee 81:9 207:21 left 178:14 240:21 312:22 443:8 446:17 legal 1:19 4:18 6:17 9:5,7 29:7 45:10 120:21 121:2,6,13,17,19 122:3 123:9,13 132:3 153:9 181:6 181:22 212:22 213:13 214:9,11 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [legal - lines] Page 43 218:11 277:5 278:7,7,12,13 293:11 294:10 303:6 307:11,12 307:15 346:13,21 347:6,8 386:13,20 386:22 387:10,20 legislative 31:22 legislature 386:1 legislatures 313:15 legitimacy 43:12 legore 116:5,6 lend 357:20 letter 5:10 6:3,13 20:17 21:1,3,5,19 22:2,6 24:8 25:9 33:13 34:8,10 35:3 47:8 48:3,3 48:11,20 49:12,19 50:5,15,16,17,20 51:6,8,13,20 52:1 52:9 53:1,1,7 61:9 62:2,6 63:1 69:19 76:15 77:9 78:13 119:12 124:6,20 125:3,5,6,14 126:11,14,16,19 126:21 127:4,13 127:19 128:9,12 128:18 129:1,10 129:14,21 130:4,6 130:10,15,19,22 131:2,4,8,11,19 132:11,15 133:7 133:10 135:17 136:1,7,15 137:1,6 141:8 142:8,16 144:16 145:14 146:9 147:6,14 148:10,11,14,16 150:3,10,22 151:6 151:11 152:1,6,10 152:14,19 153:8 153:13 154:2,6,12 155:16,21 156:21 157:1,7,15,16,19 158:1,4,15,18,22 159:4,10,13 160:3 160:7,12,21 161:3 161:6,7,11,12,15 161:16,17 162:1,5 162:13 163:22 164:9,12,18 165:1 168:21 169:10 170:4,6,17 174:10 177:8 179:9 180:4 180:11,15 182:7 182:13,15 188:15 189:1,6 196:4 197:17 198:6,12 198:14,17,22 199:3,5 200:3,18 201:16 202:1,1,13 203:5,10 228:21 229:14 230:10,20 234:3,6 236:5,14 240:7 256:2,9 259:7 283:6 297:7 297:18,22 298:4 298:12,22 299:3,9 299:17 300:1,1 315:13,16 316:2,4 332:3,13,19 333:10,19 334:7 334:13 339:21 342:8 343:9,16,18 343:20,22 344:12 344:18 345:7 351:7 353:14 355:13,16,16 356:1,15,16 357:5 359:17,18,19 362:8,11 367:7 370:16,18 371:15 371:19 372:17,18 372:20 373:7 374:5,6,14,18 375:4 385:4 401:14 402:4 406:1 417:6,17 418:5 420:9,20,21 421:8,18 422:1,2,5 426:3,3,9 427:2,4 427:13 428:22 429:1 430:21 431:1,2,4 432:4 433:10,14 435:5 436:6 439:18 443:2 444:5,7,18 level 16:10,22 18:12,13 33:1,4,7 33:16 36:19,21 37:14 85:12 132:6 167:5 183:7 185:6 198:1 205:22 207:6,11 209:18 209:20 210:12 213:22 214:19 216:11 217:18 224:12,21 230:3 234:7,14,18 235:5 235:7,11,17,22 236:1,9,10,17,17 237:4,10,18 238:10,11 239:13 256:11 257:2,21 258:10 259:17 265:15 266:3,12 267:12 269:6 271:14 272:1 273:14,19 274:8 284:3,14,21 290:8 351:15,18 353:8 375:9 378:20 387:17 388:3 389:1,12,19,21 391:7,14 393:11 393:12 394:2 395:1,8,11,12,17 395:19,19 396:2 397:7 424:11 432:18 439:21,22 440:15 447:19 levels 36:20 193:21 391:10 424:21 lgbt 49:14,21 51:1 liability 15:13,17 55:3 57:6 380:1 liaison 58:21 liberties 2:3 lie 407:13 lifetime 355:11 light 63:10 307:12 limit 28:9 limitations 77:21 363:22 limited 190:3 237:12 limits 30:11 361:10 line 22:20 80:13 126:10 143:9 145:8,10,13,14 221:22 298:2 302:7 304:10 392:11 393:13 452:5 lines 170:22 205:14 207:13 320:11 352:20 359:2 361:6 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [link - mail] Page 44 link 312:17 314:9 linked 256:13 257:12 258:11,20 lisa 14:1 list 40:6 241:9 249:11 252:7 345:9 423:1,2 listed 250:1 273:7 listened 264:18 listing 240:19 lists 241:2 literacy 377:8 literature 39:8 378:12 litigant 17:7 207:5 litigants 57:11 383:20 433:11 litigated 15:2 16:4 190:7 309:14 421:16 423:14 litigating 16:19 44:1 120:3 415:6 424:2 litigation 13:8 14:4 17:20 43:17 43:21 44:9,15 120:15 122:8,15 122:19 123:6 140:15 174:8 185:9 244:17 293:15 294:16,21 295:3,5 326:6 400:4 445:15 little 85:1,14 90:4 94:4 180:11 285:17 366:4 367:16 393:7,7 395:14 live 25:3 208:22 353:19 lives 432:1 living 208:5 llp 1:16 3:3 9:1 load 375:14 378:21 loaded 378:13,16 380:15 loading 379:5 local 180:20 localities 169:14 locate 59:3 located 9:1 location 353:6 lodging 238:22 loftus 81:9 log 6:10 292:16 296:8 446:16 long 118:11,13 141:2 148:4 171:5 171:11,13,16,19 171:22 172:6,10 173:10 174:1,12 174:16,19 175:4 175:11 188:2,5 201:6,18 202:3,7,8 202:11,14,15,19 202:21 203:2 235:10 241:20 285:17 296:10 346:3 348:16 350:9 354:13 361:9 362:1,4,16 364:13,20 368:12 403:19 415:11 longstanding 28:4 look 40:4,11 41:9 42:21 86:3 130:1 139:3 162:20 170:17 172:12 206:2 207:20 209:9,10 210:5 212:6 239:12 251:7 255:14 256:19 260:1 276:10 302:4 318:3,22 331:5 344:21 349:10,12 351:21 359:1 360:7 370:7,12 380:18 388:22 393:3 394:4 406:11 407:18 421:11 423:7 446:16 447:15 looked 50:18 52:19 81:2 161:2 260:18 278:18 349:16 421:6 looking 56:11 161:5 194:2 219:11 352:7,18 393:1 394:6,18 416:12 424:19 looks 80:18 251:9 260:5 262:16 316:14 384:3 404:14 lose 417:20 418:7 lost 358:6 430:1 lot 28:17 168:5 327:11 392:20 441:11 lowenthal 313:22 lower 256:16 258:22 264:8 268:15 274:14 275:9,21 278:21 281:5,21 322:11 345:20 lowering 317:1 lulac 345:5,7 346:15 347:4 379:10 lunch 222:1 232:4 lupe 2:7 9:21 10:3 335:6,9 lying 406:15 lynch 163:7 m m 2:15 3:3,18 92:5 machine 378:14 378:16,21 380:15 macie 95:16 mail 5:7,12,13,14 5:15,16,17,18,19 5:20,21,22 6:2,8,9 6:12,14,18,20,22 7:8,9,10,11,12,14 7:15 22:17,20 45:14 80:2,3,6,13 80:17,18 81:8 82:16 84:7,12,13 84:19,22 85:10 87:4 88:15 89:12 95:15 96:4,14,17 96:22 99:8 100:12 101:5,14 102:2,3,6 102:10,11 104:8 105:8,12,15 106:5 110:11,15,16 111:2,5,5,10 112:17 115:12,20 116:4,10,14 117:11,15,15 126:3,10,13,17,20 127:18 133:3,6 135:13 137:10 138:17,20 139:4 141:6,12 143:1,2,6 145:6,7,13 148:21 149:5,7,12,15 154:12,22 254:17 254:18 255:2,8,10 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [mail - material] 255:14,17,22 256:21 257:17 258:2 259:18,20 260:13 261:10,16 261:18 262:7,12 262:22 263:2 264:5 266:20 267:3,8 273:6 274:10,11,16,18 274:18,20 278:4 278:15 280:10,11 282:17,20,21 293:6,10,13 296:3 297:6,12 300:18 302:5,6 303:12 312:7,8,10 314:8 314:12 315:5 316:3 330:13,15 330:19 331:2,9 332:17 365:15 367:18 368:7,9 369:15,19 370:8 371:3,13 372:12 372:14,22 373:11 373:17 398:10,11 398:16 399:7 403:8,12,12,13,14 404:13 405:13 406:12 409:7 444:8,10,11 445:4 447:10,17 448:11 mailed 23:2,8 mailing 255:3,5 mails 45:21 46:8 46:12,15 102:10 102:15 255:1 260:22 317:8 365:6 373:20 404:14 443:21 444:2,3 445:3,10 445:12 446:18 Page 45 447:6,7,11 main 262:10 maintain 333:8,12 majority 15:20 345:15 346:11 347:2,3,20 349:15 356:21 357:13 358:12 359:8 375:22 376:1,13 380:3 384:2 386:18 393:2 420:13 making 167:12 246:19 427:20 maldef 2:8 maldef.org 2:10 maloney 297:19 management 47:15,19 mandate 181:15 mandated 316:9 manipulation 224:5 map 6:6 184:20,21 184:21 185:3 205:9 206:2 207:12,13,21 208:5 212:6 396:3 396:17 431:22,22 432:7,14 433:8,9 433:11,15,20,22 434:4,6,20 440:7 mapper 375:14 mapping 18:2 maps 185:13 433:21 maptitude 18:6 184:21 375:15 379:9 march 259:9 288:4,12 293:7 296:5 403:8 404:15,15 margin 36:16 37:5 195:14 196:4,7,13 196:16,21 197:6,7 197:13 198:2,10 199:2,17,21 200:5 200:6,10,12,16 201:7,13,19 202:4 203:16,22 204:8 204:12 225:4 233:12 234:1 353:8 354:15 386:11 387:6,7 388:4,11,14,15,22 389:13,18,19,22 390:1,13 391:6,11 391:16,17 392:3,8 392:12 393:2,3 394:7,19 395:2,4 395:13,17,18 marginal 418:20 419:12 margins 197:18 198:8,11,14,19 199:4 201:1 202:17 203:7 224:12,22 225:15 225:18 226:3,5,20 227:10 228:2,17 229:4,9,16,18 230:3 231:8 232:18,21 233:1 353:2 395:20 mark 47:2 79:17 105:3 110:19 115:15 177:20 240:13 254:12 300:13 302:20 350:17 358:15 371:3 397:8 416:2 438:5,7,8 443:11 445:3,21 marked 22:9,14 26:15,16 47:3 58:5 79:19 95:10 95:15,18 101:20 102:3 105:4 110:20 115:16 125:20 126:2 132:18 133:1 135:8,12 138:12 138:16 142:18,22 145:1 155:9,13 162:20 178:1 204:20 205:3 240:14 254:13 282:12,16 292:11 296:19 297:8 300:15 303:1 311:18,22 312:4 315:1 319:13,15 330:7,11 349:2 350:19 358:18 362:20 365:1 369:10 371:5 398:5 403:3 416:4 443:14 445:5,6 446:2 marking 314:19 mary 58:20,21 64:2 66:11 75:2,5 maryland 335:10 masking 225:4 229:9 441:4 442:2 massachusetts 3:16 match 185:4 matches 312:22 material 293:16 386:15 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [matter - messaging] matter 8:16 19:22 28:7 39:15 68:9 68:13 157:17 173:13 186:2 196:10 213:11 214:11 256:20 280:7 308:1 392:8 395:3,13 matters 19:18 30:4 157:18 281:10 316:11 399:6 mchenry 59:6 64:3,11,21 65:3,6 65:16 66:3,12 68:8 69:17 mean 18:8 24:21 25:1 36:11 41:19 42:13 43:10,19 62:17 63:14,16 82:6 85:3,18 86:14 90:22 91:5 91:13 92:1 96:5 108:14,22 109:7 110:3 111:13,15 129:18 130:3 145:21 192:13,16 192:17,18 196:5 202:6 272:11 280:10 311:4 327:18 334:1 352:4,12 362:1 367:1 368:4 374:8 380:22 381:3 385:12 391:8 392:5,6 397:4 400:18 404:10 434:17,18 435:2 meaning 86:1,4 379:6 Page 46 means 25:12 111:16 149:16 180:16 183:5 192:19 196:22 245:11 247:21 264:9 265:14 266:12 272:2 354:22 372:18 375:8 429:16 447:10 meant 101:10 114:1 129:20 130:5 163:4 249:19 306:11 367:3 measurable 361:10 measure 181:19 181:19 335:14,21 337:6,13 338:6,12 339:2 measures 181:17 measuring 193:9 356:2 361:22 media 8:14 94:9 94:13 156:9,13 232:9,13 286:3,7 329:6 397:13,17 400:13 405:1,6 meet 261:7 262:18 263:4 267:18 268:8 273:13,18 274:6 278:21 281:3 283:9 284:2 284:8 286:17 287:15 289:3 292:2 341:13 346:11 358:6 387:18 430:2,3 meeting 101:11 256:17 257:14 259:5,11,12,19 260:1,12,16,19,20 262:3,10,14,21 263:1,13,15 264:1 264:22 265:3,7 273:9 281:18 282:7,10 283:13 284:14,18 288:16 289:4,15,17 290:6 290:13,17,20,22 291:2,3,6,9,11,22 292:6,7 314:14 329:13,22 meetings 328:6,11 328:12 meets 386:1 member 15:21 46:7 163:7 220:11 345:16 356:22 357:13 358:13 376:13,14 384:2 members 20:10 28:2 40:7 297:16 315:13 316:8 405:1,5 434:22 memo 5:11 6:21 35:3 37:1,22 41:9 41:12 42:21 58:10 58:19 60:7,17 67:11 68:7 73:15 73:21 74:1 77:11 79:10 81:1 118:19 119:3,5 121:14 259:9 276:8 285:9 287:3,6,22 288:4,4 288:7 293:12,17 293:21,22 294:3 294:11 296:11,14 303:16 304:9,11 304:17 307:19 318:5 319:8,19 329:15,20,21 404:1 405:15,17 446:20 memorialized 272:15 memory 38:1 158:21 405:14,16 mental 114:6 293:14 294:15,20 mention 50:11 51:8 122:1 198:17 199:3 200:22 201:16 202:2,13 203:5 229:1,14 236:5,14 246:11 247:11,15 248:2 248:12 275:4 279:6,16,17 317:7 318:16 359:16 366:12 388:14 427:4 429:11 432:5 433:10 mentioned 61:3 83:16 86:7 98:9 242:21 246:4 263:22 266:9 280:6 342:5 366:10 367:4,7 382:21 405:14 414:13 432:4 433:18 mentioning 247:6 247:9,10 276:4 mentions 199:15 342:9 388:16 432:3 message 118:9 405:4 messages 45:14 messaging 45:14 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [met - new] Page 47 met 13:5 36:7 59:2 321:16 394:5,9,10 394:11 414:18 419:22 metric 345:14 355:22 356:20 357:12 358:11 359:12 miami 7:6 345:4 357:22 358:22 michigan 55:15 315:18 microphones 8:5,9 mid 4:18 93:5,8 348:15 middle 207:20 208:1 251:5 352:2 miller 409:17 mind 25:22 187:20 372:6 422:22 443:1 mine 16:17 minorities 15:19 minority 28:2 359:8 376:7,11,17 386:16 420:14 431:19 433:5 minus 196:18,20 197:2 minute 28:1 111:12 115:8 222:2 minutes 118:14 414:8 443:9,10 mischaracterizat... 309:6 317:16 421:22 mischaracterize 308:11 mischaracterizes 42:8 121:9 146:17 149:3 157:4 215:11 239:20 308:10 317:14 318:19 322:14 324:17 325:15 338:8 339:12 402:1 421:7 miscommunicati... 105:22 108:21 misrepresented 208:20 misrepresents 327:2 missed 434:12 mission 56:16 422:10 misstates 421:7 mistake 316:22 model 224:3 modern 25:2 modestly 320:15 moment 151:19 192:21 208:9 303:10 343:10 347:11 364:22 375:4 380:19 monday 80:4 81:20 143:13 144:8,17 147:1 149:16,17,19 158:3,10,11,12 159:5,20 months 128:19 386:6 moot 30:20 31:2 31:10,19 32:6,10 morning 8:2 406:13 444:6 motion 106:21 move 313:12 367:22 394:17,18 394:21 417:2 420:6 moved 393:13 movie 43:8 moving 207:15 232:3 multiple 25:6 153:9 317:8 345:11 356:17 401:6 multiyear 252:9 myers 205:11 n n 2:1 3:1,1,1 4:1,1 4:1 5:1,1 8:1 410:3 name 9:4 114:2 116:1 139:8 335:8 388:2,6 410:4 412:11 named 438:5 names 40:7 nannery 3:18 10:19,19 narrower 389:20 nation's 371:21 373:4 374:4 national 301:15 native 429:15 430:1 nature 63:3 near 141:7 142:9 necessarily 20:14 20:16 21:4 309:11 309:13 378:4 necessary 29:8 33:7 298:22 299:4 299:11,17 300:2 300:10 341:17 437:19 451:7 need 48:12 52:12 77:3 105:21 108:1 150:1 181:4 205:21 285:18,20 306:17 307:11 320:17 378:15 379:13,22 382:21 393:16 401:20 402:9,11 424:14 427:21,21 431:3 449:1 needed 108:3 144:18 175:12 298:7,18 336:10 401:17 402:5 needs 32:21,22 33:3 48:5 52:1 78:3,9,20 169:13 184:22 207:6 256:9 258:10 422:12 negatively 212:17 negron 7:6 345:3 357:21 358:17,22 neither 44:22 134:13 140:1,13 450:9 neuman 438:5,7,8 438:15 439:1 never 16:9 18:5 27:19 36:7 46:19 101:8 120:13 132:1 169:1 187:20 223:16 236:15 320:7 321:16 324:8 414:18 429:13,17 new 1:1,3 2:2,17 8:17,20 9:17 11:12 48:7,13 49:5,14 52:2,13 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [new - objection] 55:13 232:3 260:15 307:12 312:18,20 317:21 385:8,17 451:1 452:1 453:1 night 150:2 nits 143:7,16 144:3 noise 223:8,17,20 224:18 non 20:13 28:3,6 132:13,15 301:22 320:18 321:5 322:3,12 nonprivileged 238:6 northern 243:2 398:13 northwest 1:17 2:4,12,17 3:4,16 3:20 4:4 9:2 notary 1:19 450:1 450:19 note 8:5 118:18,22 119:2,5,16,19 120:7,10,21 121:3 121:20 122:1,4,13 122:18 123:4,8,13 123:17,21 124:5 125:12 242:3 299:2 noted 298:3,11 299:2,16,22 300:5 451:12 453:11 notes 299:9 305:4 notice 1:15 noticing 9:16 noting 199:1 nov 5:10 november 47:8 49:12,19 50:5 Page 48 51:21 52:10,18 53:20 54:9,15,19 55:1,9 56:22 57:6 57:9,15 58:10 126:4 133:3 135:14 137:13,19 138:3,21 139:5,12 141:6,12 142:11 143:2 144:6,10 150:12 151:6,20 151:21 152:4,15 152:20 349:8 444:15 450:22 number 38:3 42:1 47:7 58:14 80:5 94:10,14 102:6 105:11,18,18 111:4 116:3 133:1 139:2 155:16 156:10,14 210:3 232:10,14 254:21 255:16 261:12 262:3 282:18 286:4,8 293:1,2 320:4,10 329:7 353:6 394:7 397:14,18 440:8 numbered 386:8,9 numbers 205:12 205:15 206:4,6 numerous 15:20 376:12 nw 4:18 nyc 9:19 o o 3:1 4:1 5:1 8:1 103:15 138:18 410:3 o'malley 365:7,9 365:10,18 366:19 368:8,20 369:4 403:14 404:11,22 405:6,17 406:14 407:17 oath 9:9 11:22 27:3 obama 368:4 object 134:16 189:12 252:21 objection 13:10 14:6 20:4 21:13 30:9 37:17 39:21 42:7 44:16 48:15 49:8 50:1,8 51:3 51:10,16 52:4,14 54:1,2,12,13 55:10 57:16,21 59:19 62:7,14 63:5 65:18 66:5,16 68:1,18 70:3 71:1 71:10 72:6 74:11 75:7,18 76:7 78:21 82:7 83:11 85:5,20 86:22 88:9 90:14,21 91:11 97:6 98:19 103:9,18 104:15 106:8 108:4,15 109:1,9,19 110:5 110:12 111:22 112:15 113:9 114:8 121:8 122:21 123:20 124:9 125:16 131:22 136:8,16 138:4,5 146:16 147:16 149:2 153:3 154:13 157:3 158:16 160:16 162:6,15 165:20 166:6,17 167:6 169:5 175:16 185:20 186:17,18 187:3 187:12 191:12 206:9 208:17 210:8,9,22 212:20 212:21 214:8 215:10,20 216:14 216:15 218:4,5 222:21 223:10 226:8,11 228:5 229:5 230:7,8 231:13,19 236:19 237:19 238:16 239:1,18 241:11 241:22 242:17 249:6 250:14 254:8 269:7 272:21 277:13 278:1 279:8 280:14 281:22 283:15 284:22 286:21 287:18 288:19 289:18 291:12 295:10,11 303:18 304:6 306:9 308:9 309:3 310:6,21 311:13 317:13 318:18 321:6 322:13,14 324:16 325:14 327:2 332:7,22 333:21 334:15 336:17 337:15 338:7 339:11 344:4 346:6 347:5 350:1,6 353:12,21 354:13 355:2 356:4 374:7,19 381:20 383:12 386:19 387:9,19 389:3 393:9 396:4 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [objection - okay] 401:5,22 402:19 407:1 412:16 413:6 418:22 419:14 420:1 428:12 430:5,6 435:11 436:11,12 438:16 440:1,20 446:22 448:16 objections 9:14 86:5 103:17 219:16 353:9 objective 24:16 obligations 250:8 250:12,17 251:2 251:13,19 obstacle 383:10 obstructionist 72:22 obtain 298:7,16 314:15 obtaining 67:21 279:5 obviate 379:12 obviously 41:13 44:5 70:14 84:18 190:16 258:3 339:19 343:3 357:10 ocaho 64:18 occasion 92:7 152:15 occasions 380:10 398:22 399:1 occur 75:6 265:4 319:5 328:5 386:8 occurred 46:9 60:13 61:17 63:8 63:14 72:14 188:21 348:1,13 399:1 Page 49 occurring 311:9 ojc 447:18 october 1:9 8:4 okay 12:7,12,18 93:20 94:3 141:20 12:19,21 13:1,2 150:11 292:19 18:7 22:16 26:1 410:8,18,19 34:3 46:3 49:18 odd 385:16 386:8 50:20 53:13 55:22 offered 135:22 56:20 57:20 60:14 142:16 264:1 61:16 62:5,16 282:9 69:2 70:18 71:22 offers 262:3 72:11 80:12,22 office 3:9,19 6:17 88:21 89:19 91:7 10:21 19:20 31:22 94:6 102:2 107:14 59:1 64:12,16 110:18 111:20 65:1,11 91:2,4,13 116:14 121:13 117:16 119:4,8 127:11 140:1 133:15 139:17 142:15 143:16 141:1 142:2,4 147:4 148:15,21 146:4,5,6 147:9 151:21 157:13 151:13,14 153:14 159:15,17 160:20 153:15,20 157:21 161:17 165:13 303:5 307:14 168:21 170:20 365:11 398:13 172:5,14 173:9 404:12 405:6 174:4,14 177:18 officer 450:2 179:22 180:19 offices 1:15 9:1 182:4,15,18 143:8,10,17 144:3 183:11,22 184:3,8 146:3,9 153:18 188:9,15 189:8,21 official 341:3,4 190:5,6,19 194:13 411:16 195:11 196:4,14 officially 156:1 197:17 198:17,21 officials 59:9,10 200:7,14 201:5,10 59:16,16 61:19 201:16 203:11 66:11 340:18,19 204:3 205:16,19 ogc 85:1,11 448:12 207:20 208:10,11 oh 40:5 89:8 95:22 211:6 212:14 163:4 231:3 255:5 213:8,17 214:2 296:4 372:6,11 215:15 217:17 385:18 398:2 220:2,20,22 417:10,13 425:18 221:11 225:9 448:20 226:16 228:21 232:7 234:22 239:4,10 240:6,12 242:7 243:7,17 245:4 246:10 249:15 250:4 251:7,12,18 254:5 255:1,8,14,22 257:13,16 259:5 260:6,18 261:3,10 261:18 262:1 267:6,19 268:20 271:4,6,11 279:3 281:1 285:21 288:7,12 293:20 294:9 297:18,21 298:20 299:8 302:19 305:4 306:22 307:18 308:4 311:4,8 312:13,20 313:4 313:18 316:2,14 316:19 318:10,15 320:2,22 321:13 323:13 324:5 325:9 330:5 331:1 331:5,14,17,21 334:21 338:2,21 343:12 344:17 352:6 366:4 372:11,13 374:1 375:3 379:17 386:10 397:21 401:14 403:2 405:9 407:12 414:11 416:12,18 417:11 421:9 422:18 424:5 425:12,22 426:14 429:3 430:15 435:19 436:2,4,5 436:17 440:7 442:20 445:13 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [okay - part] Page 50 446:13 448:19 oklahoma 141:5 olc 302:10,14 303:13,16 304:2 304:17,20 306:14 309:9 old 382:11 384:7 omb 370:14 373:12 omitted 281:2 once 100:19 141:4 148:17 304:18 327:19 393:18 409:3 open 132:5 opening 304:9,10 370:2 opined 321:2 325:2 opinion 6:17 7:3 213:13 301:13 302:10,14 303:6 303:13 304:3,20 306:4,14 307:15 307:16,19 308:5 309:9 316:20 317:19 318:1,7,12 318:17 319:4 335:12,19 340:6 340:10,11,12,14 346:21 347:16 348:21 349:6 350:9 351:3,5 355:6,9 362:3 364:13 418:2 420:16 opinions 335:17 336:2 344:17,20 344:21 345:21 346:2 355:5,7,11 364:18,20 opposed 181:20 194:4 206:6 208:14 362:18 363:15 369:6 373:10 377:12 413:4 options 38:4 262:3 oral 1:14 order 35:5 56:3 185:1,6 207:7 234:13 235:21 236:8 237:17 341:16 343:11 373:15 376:19 organizational 47:18 orientation 442:8 origin 442:8 original 298:21 451:14 outcome 9:11 450:15 outside 20:2 53:14 56:22 195:5 396:14,15,18 434:6,21 overall 234:5 320:14 393:15 394:15 overcommit 307:10 overlapping 208:4 oversight 26:22 27:10,16 29:5 370:1,4 371:11 446:8 p p 2:1,1 3:1,1 4:1,1 8:1 15:6 p.m. 87:5 232:11 232:14 274:19 286:4,8 312:14 329:4,7 335:2,5 397:14,18 413:14 413:17,22 414:3 449:7,8 p.o. 3:10 pa 451:22 452:22 453:22 page 5:2,6 6:1 7:1 32:15,18 34:13,14 40:4,11 43:5,6 80:4,17 85:10 87:4 95:17 96:5 102:5 105:10 111:3,4 139:3 155:15 161:2,5,13 163:2,4,5 169:10 170:17,21 180:11 191:16,17 195:12 230:18,19 234:5 240:21,22 245:9 248:19 249:20 250:1 254:20 255:9,15,16 259:21 260:6,6,13 261:3,14,15,21,22 262:13 273:6 292:20,22 309:21 315:15 320:3,9 330:16 349:12,12 349:13 351:21 352:7,9,10,18,19 354:5 359:1 360:7 361:7 362:10 363:4 365:18,19 365:20 367:18 368:8 369:18 370:7,12 371:17 373:1 403:11 406:12 417:2,8,10 417:12 420:8 421:11,12 423:7 424:7 429:11 430:22 444:8,9 447:16,16 452:5 pages 446:15 453:7 pam 14:1 414:14 416:10 panel 28:3,13 panuccio 151:14 paper 331:3,8,13 331:18 paragraph 34:14 58:18 60:13,15 61:3,18 68:7 69:16,16 81:7 163:6 169:11 170:21 174:5 180:12 297:22 304:9,11 313:18 316:2,19 320:10 342:10 345:11 346:2 351:22 352:8,20 355:19 356:16 359:2 360:8,20 361:7 363:20 368:9 371:18 385:3 417:3 420:7 421:13 426:13 429:12 parameters 213:2 parity 442:11 part 28:13 37:21 100:18 101:4,7,8 102:8 105:11 119:22 120:16 184:5,9 185:16 187:9 188:6 243:9 243:12 244:4 250:5 251:14,14 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [part - place] Page 51 283:12 305:16 323:16 337:11 366:17,21 372:10 403:22 425:7 partial 423:2 participate 32:6 314:4 423:16 437:16 participated 410:12,14 participation 437:15 particular 41:21 61:3 98:12 113:7 130:13 151:19 157:7,16 167:3 168:10 173:21 189:7 193:8 213:10 223:13 224:5 248:20 276:5 278:5 280:4 307:11 318:1 328:16 339:20 344:2 353:20 378:12 384:22 385:1 388:21 395:7 399:7 400:3 424:22 425:21 426:10 440:8 444:13 particularly 118:13 184:20 233:13 437:17 particulars 271:18 parties 1:21 8:12 349:21 450:10,13 partisan 436:18 437:11 party 9:9 44:19 45:1,7 64:8 67:15 68:3 83:14 pat 265:19 patrick 151:12 patriot 303:8,17 304:12,21 305:11 307:5,20 308:6,22 310:4,18 311:10 penalty 12:1 27:4 people 31:1,10,21 32:2 39:8 41:22 42:1,16 57:8 61:2 63:17,18,21,22 95:16 102:4 119:16 120:1,12 131:15 152:21 153:1 168:4,7,14 191:7 196:17 206:5 208:5,10,14 208:16 209:8,12 209:22 210:1,7,20 212:8 220:11,12 246:14 265:16 267:22 313:9 315:6,17 318:1,11 319:3,11 369:17 410:21 411:11 440:8 people's 223:8 percent 176:5 195:13 196:15,17 197:1 199:6 210:1 210:3 230:20 354:8 363:14,15 387:16 388:17,20 389:12 390:10 392:11,14,15 393:7 percentage 196:9 196:18 209:7 432:10 perform 37:15 56:13 185:6 224:5 234:11 235:5 237:9,16 performed 237:2 performing 18:12 period 65:3,8,10 90:4 152:4 153:7 175:21 177:6 251:10 386:1 periods 252:10 perjury 12:1 27:4 permitted 130:3 341:21 342:22 permitting 107:1 perry 345:5,8 346:16 347:4 379:11 person 39:6 46:9 59:2 129:2,5 181:15 183:3 212:11,15,16 214:5,5 215:7,17 216:10 217:12,22 219:11,19 221:13 222:6,9,17,19 268:22 269:1 276:19 341:5 409:7 431:7,9 432:16 440:11,17 441:18,19 person's 215:8 216:12 218:2 221:16 223:2 439:15,19 440:17 personal 45:13,22 46:10 218:12 personally 39:20 39:22 227:1 344:1 414:17 422:15,16 435:3 personnel 131:9 153:13 282:17,21 284:2 persons 341:18 pertinent 387:6 peter 92:4,22 93:2 93:12,17 97:14 137:10 ph.d. 165:14,15 phase 17:16 phone 68:8 119:7 129:3,4 268:22 409:6 phones 8:8 phrase 86:14 157:12 433:18 pick 8:6 pickett 133:4,7,11 133:14,21 134:1 134:13,21 135:4 135:13,16,21 136:6,21 137:4 151:1,8 153:22 picture 24:16,20 38:7 piece 199:12 248:20 pitch 404:8,10 405:3 pl 184:14 185:16 187:9 188:6 pl94 256:11 pl94-171 184:6 185:8 385:14 place 8:8,12 66:10 66:14 69:15 89:2 93:20 98:8,12,13 99:10 100:21 102:15 259:6 263:6 339:14 368:1 427:4 437:13 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [places - possible] places 279:22 421:5 plainly 107:17 plaintiff 8:16 190:20 194:14,19 195:5 203:20 204:14 207:5,6 237:7,8,15,16 243:14 375:21 376:5,10 382:4 418:9,11,12 plaintiff's 22:14 243:8,12 244:4 245:21 plaintiffs 1:4,15 2:7 3:2 5:3 6:11 9:18,20,22 10:4,8 15:18 16:10 55:2 55:8 56:2 194:15 204:4,7 244:12,17 244:22 245:14 246:6,22 249:4 335:6,9 347:19 348:15 349:14,16 351:13 354:6,12 358:6 362:15 363:7 376:6,8,10 376:22 377:5 417:19 418:7 429:15 plan 143:12 144:5 144:6 219:5 234:16 327:16 379:19 434:3 planned 216:18 328:6 planning 260:19 441:8 plans 180:21,22 185:11 225:6,6,20 225:21 227:18 Page 52 386:7 play 329:21 playing 75:13 pleadings 44:4 45:5 please 8:5,7 9:15 11:5 12:9 111:11 115:7 135:18 141:7 163:2 200:8 348:11 370:8,9 451:6,10 plus 178:21 196:18,20 197:2 point 39:5,13 55:6 65:10 76:21 86:12 93:18 117:5 118:18 122:7,11 125:3 131:19 137:17 144:10 183:12,19 185:19 188:17,22 189:2 192:6 193:7,8 196:22 197:10 207:1 209:1 230:10 235:1 238:15 246:18 248:9,18 251:3 260:18 266:14 268:1,20 269:12 276:9 292:3,6 296:9 299:16 328:13 336:8 340:9 351:5 355:11 365:20,22 383:18 387:15 388:8 389:16 421:9 423:10 425:13,15,16 429:17 430:20 432:22 433:16 pointed 231:4 points 22:21 23:1 23:7 47:11 182:16 196:19 197:2 polarization 424:12 polarized 55:14 380:3,13 424:16 424:19 policies 28:8 policy 28:4 30:5 87:9,14,19,22 88:2 88:6 410:5 polite 369:6 political 19:4 133:17 140:19 153:14 pomona 345:4 population 15:6 32:21 33:3 169:14 177:16 179:3,8 180:8 181:13 183:1,17 184:3 188:12,17 189:4 189:11 190:13,22 191:9 192:1 193:13 195:22 197:20 200:1,20 205:12,16 206:4 207:11,15 229:1 230:22 234:13,16 243:15 245:7 256:12 313:13 335:14,21 337:6 337:12 338:6,12 339:2 340:22 341:18 345:14 346:18 353:7 355:22 356:19 357:11 358:11 359:4,9,11 362:18 363:15 376:1 381:7 383:19 384:22 385:1,15 386:17 400:8 432:8,10,16 434:10 populations 49:15 49:21 51:1 178:21 populous 431:11 431:16 433:3 portfolio 142:1,4 portion 81:16 292:6 portions 35:8 posed 12:21 210:18 231:2,3 301:6 position 16:9,18 19:1 35:11 39:2 56:17 72:13,16 106:18 107:3 124:19,20 161:19 169:22 170:5 205:21 206:15 208:21 213:13 276:6 281:11 287:2 306:18 307:3 311:10 319:3 361:5 364:5 374:17 381:4 429:1 435:7 436:7 positions 16:15,16 possesses 256:15 258:12 possibility 122:8 122:15 308:20 340:21 406:22 420:13,15 possible 25:5,14 31:7 139:15 155:8 193:22 223:1 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [possible - procedure] 256:7,8 261:7 283:13 285:10 289:14 339:17 370:11 392:17 421:1 431:19 433:5 possibly 56:13 145:18 206:18 208:22 211:3 353:16 392:19 post 76:11 194:3 241:15 292:7 potential 25:7 81:15 207:2,18 209:3 368:15 potentially 120:17 320:16 324:6 401:8 power 31:21 356:3 practice 14:21 15:1 16:13 28:4 148:13 149:12,13 149:14 156:19 157:11,14,17 165:4 223:21 339:18 340:4,12 343:1 368:12 pre 26:15 62:21 63:4 72:19 292:1 293:16 338:16 precinct 393:14 precincts 394:14 precise 73:8 197:6 233:1,7,20 291:8 precisely 342:20 408:6 precluding 107:13 precondition 15:13,17 16:11 17:2,13 55:3,21 56:4 57:4,5 Page 53 419:22 424:10 preconditions 380:12 424:8,11 424:16 425:8 predate 241:14,18 predated 76:16 predates 107:17 194:2 361:17 predecessor 134:2 predominant 181:8 182:9,12 prefer 208:13 preferable 34:4 preference 188:16 preferred 132:14 prep 331:14 preparation 14:12 14:15 prepare 13:3 30:20 32:7,10,13 prepared 30:16,19 123:5 preparing 30:17 present 1:21 4:6 9:12 38:16 229:20 326:9 383:9 presented 400:3 446:10 presenting 421:2 preserved 437:6 press 68:12 154:22 405:5 presumably 107:8 presuming 373:16 pretty 47:22 261:5 prevailed 354:17 previous 250:4,5 251:7,12 327:3 338:8 339:12 368:11 previously 27:11 27:17 55:16 103:7 136:2 235:14,19 282:22 283:19 411:1 414:21 prim 330:14 primarily 352:3 352:22 principal 47:18 printout 6:7 58:14 240:18 prior 16:2 59:8,17 61:7 62:1 66:13 66:14 74:3 77:17 77:21 90:3 98:4 103:5 116:14 121:9 134:22 146:17 157:4 168:21 187:21 188:17,22 189:2 215:11 251:5 252:2 308:10 338:9 367:20 368:3 369:1 396:1 396:20 423:4,5 437:20 439:9,17 privacy 218:12 408:1 439:14,19 private 8:6 14:21 15:1 16:13 45:14 207:6 314:1 339:18 340:4,12 privilege 6:10 21:15 59:21 60:1 62:10 66:19 70:6 71:3,13 72:15 74:14 75:20 76:9 76:11 79:1 82:9 97:9 98:21 99:16 104:18 106:10 107:13,18 108:6,9 112:2 113:11 124:12 125:4 136:10 138:7 189:14 206:11 237:21 252:19 253:10,12 269:9 269:19 273:1 285:2 289:20 291:14 292:16 295:13 296:8 310:8 336:19 337:17 339:6,9 344:6 396:6 401:7 401:9 402:20 407:3,4 412:18 419:2 428:14 438:18 440:3 446:16 privileged 72:9 106:13 189:17 195:1 285:4 289:22 291:16 336:21 337:19 396:8 407:6 privileges 28:8 30:5 107:11 401:6 probably 38:14 43:15 78:16 93:5 103:3 129:11 141:19 266:6 269:3 288:11 445:21 probative 384:17 problem 383:1 420:9,9,19 problematic 77:14 353:4 431:5 problems 417:4 431:1,2 procedure 18:13 37:15 235:21 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [procedure - public] 236:8 237:3,9,17 procedures 224:8 224:17 proceed 204:14 285:10 proceeding 9:15 proceedings 450:9 process 21:15 59:21 62:10 66:19 70:5 71:2,12 72:15,17 74:14 75:19 76:8,10 78:22 82:8 97:9 98:21 99:16 104:18 106:10 108:6 112:1 113:11 114:6 124:11 125:7 132:3 136:9 138:2 138:6 150:4 151:17 206:11 234:19 269:8,18 272:22 285:1 289:7,10,20 291:13 295:13 310:8 311:5 336:19 337:17 338:16 344:5,13 366:2 396:6 401:7 407:3 419:2 428:14 438:17 440:2 produce 18:13 185:15 225:15 230:2 231:6 238:9 264:7 267:17 271:14 278:20 281:5 284:3 produced 13:7 46:13 115:22 133:2 138:21 Page 54 143:5 184:9,11 188:6 224:21 228:15 233:5,17 256:16 258:22 274:14 292:15 373:16 produces 176:9 226:4 248:13 producing 266:3 266:12 267:12 269:5 271:22 273:14,19 274:8 275:8,20 product 13:12 401:8 productive 328:13 professional 20:6 28:7 448:22 professionally 20:7 professionals 39:17 166:16,20 167:2 277:12,21 professor 418:2 421:6 425:19 431:21 program 375:15 378:22 379:9 programs 31:15 404:4,8 405:22 406:3 prohibited 213:5 prohibition 213:10,12 215:1 408:8 prohibits 211:21 projection 40:15 prompted 97:3 prong 346:11 347:1,20 354:1,9 356:1 358:4,7 359:12 364:7 375:20 376:17,19 378:2,20 379:14 383:22 386:15 387:1,2,3,18 388:3 394:5 pronounces 139:8 proof 346:10 378:2,4 proper 345:14 355:22 356:20 357:11 358:11 359:11 proportional 356:2 proposal 187:8 256:18 259:15 268:2,5,6,10,13 269:5 270:11,16 270:17 271:3,14 271:19,22 273:13 273:19 274:8,13 276:5 279:7 281:3 281:20 284:3 290:7 291:7 314:14 proposals 17:18 17:19 proposed 185:11 291:2 308:17 349:17 proposition 357:20 propounded 305:16 453:9 prosecute 406:15 prosecuted 407:14 prosecutions 406:18 409:1 protect 169:20 298:7,16 404:6 426:20 protected 107:18 124:21 304:13 protecting 301:21 403:17,18 protection 13:12 125:7 181:14 368:17 protections 174:8 408:2 prove 380:1 425:7 proved 354:6 proven 185:11 380:5 424:13,17 provide 23:20 24:6,14 26:10 28:5 38:6 121:2 121:13,17,19 122:3 214:13 216:2 217:8 256:11 257:1,11 257:21 258:10 287:6 290:7 294:9 311:2 346:21 371:14 415:21 421:17 444:14 provided 147:5 151:9,10 223:3 287:22 372:19 420:14 422:3 provides 370:17 providing 121:6 215:1 256:6 265:14 293:11 440:14 441:16 province 41:1 proving 377:5 provision 301:13 304:12,20 public 1:19 124:20 131:17 132:2,9,13 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [public - question] 132:15 195:10 211:14 238:6 293:22 296:12,14 332:1,20 333:13 334:5,11 365:11 404:12 405:7 450:1,19 publicly 35:1 189:19 191:8 212:4 318:5 319:8 333:17 400:13 published 171:21 198:1,3 235:4,11 296:13 385:21 415:7 publishes 224:3 245:5 247:16 385:22 386:3 pull 314:2 purport 317:19 purportedly 192:10 purports 170:6 420:10,20 purpose 33:15 34:12 182:9,12 purposes 17:12 26:5 34:5 38:8 57:10 67:21 77:15 79:7,13 135:5 170:3,9,14 172:19 174:16,22 175:5 176:1 180:14,16 180:16,18,19,22 181:22 182:8 183:14 184:4,18 192:9 197:12 203:8 233:9,9,21 235:3 236:6 240:9 245:11 257:2 266:3 271:15 Page 55 272:1 275:3,8 286:14,20 301:16 337:6 338:13 340:22 354:1 364:7 380:2 383:19 388:3,10 404:2 432:19 pursuant 1:15 307:19 pursue 271:3,13 271:21 pursued 16:15 purview 19:7,19 put 29:8 58:19 154:11 186:12 228:1 230:16 247:22 308:16 368:1 378:17 398:12 428:2,4,6,8 putting 239:14 379:11 395:14 439:8 puzzled 85:13 447:20 448:1,3,6,7 448:14,15 q qfr 300:21 qfrs 6:15 301:3 qualification 359:16 quality 242:15 243:19 253:4 256:3,6,16 258:22 264:8 268:14 274:14 275:9,21 278:20 281:5,20 quantitative 167:18 326:8 quarter 221:22 question 7:2 12:10 12:16,22 13:1 14:5 17:14,21,22 20:19 21:11,16 22:3 23:4,6,10 24:10 25:19 28:20 35:6 37:19 38:5 40:12,16,19,21 41:11,21,22 42:2,5 42:15 43:3,4,5,7 43:10,13,15,21 46:20 48:18 49:18 51:14 52:6,16,20 52:20 53:9,12,18 55:20 56:7,8,10,19 56:19 57:2 59:3 59:12,18 60:20 62:3,8,13,22 63:2 64:6 65:17 66:4 66:18 67:1 68:11 68:17 69:3,6,12 70:2,8,16,21 71:9 71:11 72:4,20 73:4,18 74:9,16 76:5 77:1,2,7 78:11 80:16 82:19 84:5 85:13 87:12 88:8,17 89:4,6,10 89:14,16 90:1,7,13 90:20 91:10,22 92:9,14,20 93:3,10 94:1,21 95:8 96:22 97:5,11 99:2,15 100:4,9,12 101:1,6,15 104:17 107:1,12,12 109:18 112:8,14 113:2,8,13,22 114:13,18 116:16 118:16,20 119:14 120:19 121:7,15 122:9,16,20 123:18 124:8,14 124:17,21 125:1,9 125:9,14 126:22 127:6,8,10,15 128:1,5,8 129:8,13 131:20 132:11 136:1 137:15,20 138:2 141:17 142:13 144:12,15 148:3,4 150:6,10 150:15 152:14 153:5,8 154:2 155:1,2 156:1 161:9,20 162:18 163:7,19 164:2,7 166:12 169:2,18 171:4 173:17,18 173:19,20,22 174:6,10,11 175:3 175:9 185:17 186:4,8,14 187:10 188:8,21 189:15 191:14 199:8,13 199:15 201:21 204:5 206:13 209:16 210:18 212:18 213:18 214:6,11,17,21 215:4,9,18 216:13 217:3,10 218:3 219:6 220:20 221:3,4,17 222:9 222:20 224:10,15 224:19 225:12,15 225:20,22 226:17 226:19 227:2,17 229:8 230:5 231:2 231:4,5,10 233:5 233:14,18 236:3 237:12 238:3,13 238:22 239:4,5,14 240:3 243:22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [question - random] 247:5,5,13 248:8 382:2 383:5 385:6 210:17 211:12 248:22 250:20 386:13 387:6 212:18 213:19 252:22 253:1,7,13 389:6 390:4,20 214:4,7,13,18,20 253:21 257:3,9,22 393:17 396:8,12 215:2,5 216:9 259:1,8,10 264:10 401:16 403:10,16 217:3,20 219:10 269:16,22 271:16 404:3,21 405:10 219:14,20 222:20 272:3 273:16 406:14 407:6,13 223:4,9 224:20 277:16 279:13 408:11 409:8,12 225:13 226:5,18 281:6 284:4,9,11 409:16,20 410:16 227:10 228:4,16 284:20 285:4 411:6 412:16,20 229:3 233:6,19 287:1,10,11,20 413:5 418:8,17 239:15 258:1 290:8 292:20 419:4 425:20 259:2 264:11 293:13 294:4,11 426:18 427:22 275:1,17 277:8 294:17,22 295:4,9 428:15 430:8 279:6 284:20 295:11,15,17,22 432:12 434:12,19 298:6,15 299:12 296:1,7 298:5,14 435:9,14,21,22 299:19 300:9 299:10,21 300:3 436:4,10 437:10 301:19 302:12 301:10,19 302:9,9 438:1 439:5,9 303:15 314:16 305:6,10,14,16,20 440:18 441:2,3,7,9 324:12 325:5,5 306:3,8 308:19 441:13,20 442:12 326:13 367:9,22 310:10 313:21 442:16 443:8 403:19 404:21 317:6,12,18 318:2 445:15 447:20 408:1,9,18 426:17 318:12 320:12 448:2,3,8,14,21 441:9 321:4 322:1,10,17 questioned 28:15 questionnaires 322:19,20 323:2,4 questionnaire 421:20 422:3,13 323:5,9,11,11 20:20 21:12 22:4 questions 30:14 324:12,20 325:3 23:4,10 25:11,16 41:1 58:1 80:7,14 325:12 326:12,21 26:1 35:7 38:5 81:15 87:7 96:10 327:20 328:2,8,15 43:3 50:7,22 135:19 165:5 329:16 331:3,7,18 51:15 52:21 53:22 190:1,3 220:18 332:4,14,20 56:9 67:2 70:22 221:22 270:11 333:11,20 334:8 72:5 73:5,19 277:5,7 279:19 334:14 338:11,19 74:10 77:8 79:5 301:6 307:11 339:10 342:13 90:8 92:15 125:15 313:5 334:22 346:15 347:1 127:1,7,16 131:21 335:11 341:7 348:3,5,7 356:8,11 132:12 154:3 356:9 377:15 359:15 360:15 156:2 169:3,17 386:11 405:1 365:8 367:8,22 170:1,7,12 171:5 409:5 414:10 372:7 373:14 201:6 202:8,9,12 442:6,7,9,10 376:3,4 378:1 202:15,16,19,21 445:14 453:9 379:12 381:18 203:3 206:22 Page 56 quibble 379:6 quick 413:11 quiet 85:2,14,19 86:9,21 quite 183:7 296:6 375:10 392:4,5 429:16 quote 200:1 380:20 399:8 420:19 quotes 317:22 r r 2:1 3:1 4:1 8:1 92:5 138:18,18,19 410:3 452:4,4 race 223:2 235:10 235:16 236:1,10 256:12 442:7 rachael 138:19 157:20 265:19 410:22 racial 15:19 174:9 207:16 298:8,17 345:15 356:20 357:12 358:12 388:21 424:12,12 424:18,22 436:18 437:3,11,17 racially 55:13 380:3,13 424:16 raise 68:10,17 69:6,12 70:1 406:22 raised 30:1 58:2 81:12,13,18,19 82:5,5 87:8 90:6 131:8 270:6 309:15 340:2 raising 241:1 random 280:11 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [range - receiving] range 196:12 197:3 rate 40:17 42:16 317:1 323:21 324:2 325:4,6 327:7 rates 23:18 24:5 24:13 26:9 41:12 41:18 42:6 43:2 193:18 317:7,12 318:13 319:5 321:22 322:2,11 324:13 326:12 345:12 356:18 359:8,21 reach 67:19 81:10 97:3 98:14,17 reached 100:7,17 167:10 227:21 280:5 289:14 328:19 reaction 110:10 112:21 113:3 read 24:1 41:6,15 48:9 49:16 50:11 50:14,15,16 59:7 60:7 68:15,20 80:9 86:3 143:14 147:2 156:4 183:9 192:4 195:18 196:1 234:20 253:13 260:4,10 275:12 279:12 283:10 293:18 294:8 298:3,11 299:6 301:10 302:2,16 304:15 305:3 306:13 309:7 312:14 313:16 314:6 316:12 320:20,22 Page 57 325:19 340:3 344:17,20 345:6,7 345:17,20 347:8 347:16 349:19 350:9 351:2,5,10 353:21 355:9,10 358:1 359:13 361:7,8,15,16 362:3,12 363:21 364:12,17,19 400:13 404:13 409:2 415:5,15,22 416:13 422:22 423:1 434:14,15 449:4 451:6 453:7 reading 161:1,10 161:13 360:9,14 372:2 415:9,12 423:4,5 reads 23:13 33:13 58:19 68:7 81:8 105:16 169:12 170:22 174:5 180:12 182:21 191:17 195:12 200:3,18 234:6 256:1 260:14 273:8 293:10 298:20 301:17 302:7 304:11 313:8,18 316:3,20 320:11 331:22 349:14 ready 143:12 144:7,16,18 real 421:17 really 40:21 243:18 383:7 389:10 398:2 reason 12:3 21:8 22:2 75:9 148:15 179:19 211:17 248:1,11 252:13 253:17 277:9 284:17 308:16 318:15 351:6 365:20 367:6 374:14,16 451:8 452:7,9,11,13,15 452:17,19,21 reasonable 320:12 reasonably 361:3 reasons 25:9,10 28:21 34:10 37:11 53:7 65:15 66:2 163:18 164:6,11 180:14 186:9 240:8 272:14,17 272:20 306:11 404:19 421:15 rebecca 3:14 10:9 recall 16:17 60:22 65:9 79:8,15 84:12,17,18,20 85:22 91:14 92:4 92:15 93:4,11,21 97:18 99:11 113:3 115:13 116:17 117:13 119:6 120:5,20 123:7 128:2,4,6,14 129:4 129:6 130:17 137:3,8,21 139:14 141:18 143:20 146:11,18 147:7 147:11,18 148:19 151:18 152:11 154:4,15 155:5 246:19 247:3,6,9 247:13,19 248:8 264:2 265:9 266:7 268:16,17 274:3 276:4 294:6 296:13,15 334:9 339:4,14 347:18 347:22 348:18 351:2,11,12 357:2 358:5,8,9,14 360:6 362:14,19 363:19 365:15 369:19 370:20 371:1 396:22 397:1 398:16,18,20,22 399:9,11 400:16 410:11,11,21 411:21 412:3 415:11,13,16 416:12 419:19 429:21 435:4 440:9,10 442:20 444:17,20,21 445:1,12,13,17 447:9,12 448:5,7 448:10 recalls 87:7 receipt 451:16 receive 110:15 119:5 137:5 151:7 152:9 received 63:11 117:10 118:8,18 122:13 143:7 145:16 150:22 151:3 152:1,22 157:22 158:22 159:3 160:2 274:10,17 293:20 314:8 315:13 317:8 373:12 446:18 receiving 84:13 110:10 119:7 120:14 152:12 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [receiving - reidy] 153:12,20,21 156:20 264:16 294:2 recess 94:12 156:12 232:12 286:6 329:5 335:3 397:16 recipients 447:6 recognize 416:8 443:18,19 445:10 445:11,22 446:6 recognized 387:17 recollect 246:17 recollection 25:10 34:9 38:2 73:15 74:4 88:14 128:20 128:21 146:14 152:12 159:3,7 161:6,14 244:14 244:16,19,20 245:19 279:20 300:7 346:19 371:4 411:19 430:18 reconsider 310:3 370:19 reconstruct 248:19 record 8:3,13 9:14 12:11 42:10 43:22 44:11,14 45:11 58:13 80:22 94:11 94:15 95:19 102:9 105:12 106:20 107:5,7 111:3 115:21 155:15 156:8,11,15 232:11,15 244:2 282:18 285:21 286:1,5,9 320:3 329:2,4,8 334:21 Page 58 335:2,5 350:8 362:5 397:15,19 398:4 413:14,15 413:17,18,22 414:1,3 434:15 446:1 449:7 450:8 recorded 8:15 recording 8:11 193:6 records 285:13 red 143:9 145:10 145:14 298:2 redacted 105:18 redistrict 252:1 335:13 386:4 redistricting 180:21,22 182:21 184:4 185:9 192:3 207:7 234:10,15 234:19 242:4,8 313:14 335:12 338:5 339:1 340:22 385:10,13 385:19 388:10 395:22 423:21 424:2 433:19,20 434:2 reduce 317:6,12 318:13 322:2 324:13 325:4 326:12 reduced 324:2 450:7 reduction 41:11 43:1 319:4 327:6 refer 15:7 144:2 170:18 364:22 421:14 433:9 447:15 reference 50:17 84:11 107:4 125:2 181:11 297:15 346:17 426:7,7 referenced 35:10 61:18 69:15 87:14 106:19 259:17 303:13 317:10 433:15 references 81:18 82:4 87:18 373:11 427:14 referencing 109:16 referred 34:19 67:11 88:3 196:13 198:13 361:18 372:22 406:6 442:3 referring 25:17 34:20,21 35:15 36:4 84:15 87:14 87:18,21 88:3,5 96:21 106:7 108:2 115:2 143:16 144:1 145:15,19 145:22 146:2,12 146:13 174:11 182:9,13 230:11 230:13 243:17 283:18 300:7 303:15,21 330:15 343:8 357:4,5 366:20 368:7 376:4 387:1 422:14,16 423:8 426:11,12 431:9 447:21 448:11 refers 108:13,20 180:15,18,20 293:1 refined 359:5 reflect 215:8 216:12 218:2 219:13 220:17 221:16,19 222:19 223:2 444:3 446:18 reflected 143:8 164:8 reform 103:15 370:1,5 371:11 446:9 refresh 161:6,14 refused 282:6 refusing 240:2 344:14 regard 339:10 regarding 23:18 24:4,13 26:9 59:11 81:11 90:11 90:18 91:8 96:10 123:22 135:19 151:11 256:2 298:5,14 339:17 365:7 378:7 385:7 385:8 401:20 402:10,13 431:3 435:8 436:8 440:18 444:13 446:19 regardless 180:7 245:7 361:22 384:7 regards 260:3 region 4:18 registered 424:19 registration 380:8 380:11,14 424:21 regularly 117:4,5 regulations 44:9 reidy 4:7 9:4 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [reinstate - request] reinstate 56:8 298:5,14 385:6 reinstated 52:21 323:2 reinstatement 35:6 43:2 92:14 293:12 367:8 reinstating 38:4 41:21 67:1 169:18 404:20 426:18 reinstituting 403:19 404:20 reintroduced 414:8 reiterate 384:10 reject 360:12,17 361:11 362:15 363:17,22 rejected 285:12 rejection 370:14 relate 81:14 227:16 339:20 related 9:9 46:6,20 66:22 74:2 77:16 92:13 131:14 142:6 216:2 263:11 268:7 302:14 306:14 309:9 336:13,15 342:16 399:5 424:16 439:14,19 450:10 relates 407:19 relating 49:14,21 81:13,15 relationship 225:3 227:13 228:1 relative 450:12 relatively 389:1 release 385:8 Page 59 released 36:19 releases 385:9 relevance 368:14 relevant 234:16 242:8,11,13 248:21 278:10 364:1 395:2 424:13 427:15 reliability 135:5 140:14 236:16 248:13 327:9,10 reliable 169:13 204:13 206:17 245:1,6 246:13,15 247:1,17 249:3 353:16 359:6 392:18 421:1 reliance 187:22 241:9 243:9,13 244:5 245:22 252:12 253:16 relied 174:15 175:13 201:11 203:6 226:21 228:18 229:19 241:20 244:12 246:7,21 249:4 relies 325:13 326:22 rely 26:5 55:2 123:16 244:18 245:15 352:3,22 relying 174:20 183:6 203:15 233:8,21 244:22 354:12 375:8 remain 132:13,15 382:3 remedial 17:16,18 185:11 379:19 380:4,9 remember 27:1 32:2 35:17,22 60:16 64:17 65:12 75:10 101:16 118:9 153:19 159:9,12 232:18 232:20 242:22 263:7 266:15,18 269:18 272:9 275:13,15,18 279:10 291:8 294:2 333:3 342:19 347:9 399:2 411:3 412:14 413:3 415:11 443:5 removed 230:9 render 184:18 renewed 302:15 306:15 309:10 reno 77:20 reorient 352:15,17 repeat 23:6 49:18 114:12 201:21 224:14 284:11 360:15 372:4 repeating 372:7 rephrase 435:20 replace 223:22 report 7:13 13:22 216:18 414:14 415:4,8,9,10,15,16 415:19,20 416:9 416:10,20 417:1 421:14 422:19 425:19 429:10 430:18 441:8 reported 172:3,7 173:14,18,20 195:13 202:7,11 202:15,19 209:17 210:1 217:1 218:19,21,21 222:7,18 224:9 230:19 234:6,8 381:2,10 389:12 390:10 391:10 400:12 441:19 442:1 reporter 9:6 11:5 12:11,14 92:2 365:21 434:15 reporting 217:6 218:7 reports 13:18,21 222:5,15 represent 193:2 205:8,14,15 335:9 representation 76:19 205:18 268:18 325:9 326:14 representative 20:11 29:6 40:13 41:4,17 43:6 representatives 431:13 446:10 represented 16:5 129:22 278:14 324:22 325:7 representing 16:7 16:14 326:5 represents 161:18 162:1 163:9 429:1 request 21:10 23:3 23:9 46:5,13 48:6 48:13 50:12 51:1 51:9,13 52:2,13 53:6 56:8 60:19 61:9 62:2 70:15 70:21 71:8 72:3 72:18 73:3,18 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [request - results] 74:8 76:5 77:7 90:12,19 91:9 106:22 109:17 120:15,18 123:17 124:2 131:19 132:11 142:12 144:11,15 145:9 148:3 150:10 153:8 161:8 165:8 170:19 214:15 216:3 261:6 263:11,15,17,20 265:10 269:14,22 282:7 283:8 284:9 284:14 287:8 289:2 313:9 328:20 332:12 337:10 338:17 364:16 384:14 385:7 412:1 427:20 442:15 requested 49:13 49:20 56:18 143:10 169:1 186:7,8 213:18 216:19,22 217:14 219:9 220:7,8 225:9,12 314:13 316:6 332:2,18 333:9,18 334:6,12 351:18 382:14 434:16 requesting 20:19 22:3 24:10 49:5 63:2 119:13 123:9 123:12 124:7 125:14 126:22 127:5,14 136:1 138:2 152:14 154:2 226:17 257:14 259:8 Page 60 263:1 283:7 299:9 332:3,13,19 333:10,19 334:7 334:14 requests 50:6,21 156:1 385:5 require 51:21 53:21 181:11 253:11 394:1 required 36:20 132:3 234:11 235:5 251:22 342:21 379:18 388:3 requirement 181:9 183:3 347:3 359:4 431:7,10,11 431:17 433:3 requirements 54:9 169:12 181:3,6,11 182:1 218:12 341:13 379:11 requires 36:17 341:12 347:1 394:11 397:6 requiring 346:10 research 277:22 344:1 reserve 449:3 residence 399:8,10 399:14,20 resolve 185:18 186:15 231:11 261:6 resources 406:8 respect 16:3 19:18 35:3 53:11 54:9 55:1 59:14,17 61:2 63:3 65:7,13 66:12 78:3,7 104:4 140:12 153:18 157:16 161:19 191:2 202:18,20 216:9 218:12 222:16 225:7,21 227:19 231:5 233:8 250:18 251:2 269:4 289:7 299:18 300:2 364:16 391:19,22 392:1 407:20 418:2 424:17 427:11,16 430:12 438:12 447:10 respective 1:21 respond 12:9 42:16 187:16 370:11 responded 84:7 212:16 214:6 222:9 respondent 224:1 responding 248:7 287:7 301:18 403:13 406:13 445:13 447:9 response 6:11 40:17,18 41:11,18 42:6 43:2,14 46:13 121:3,14,20 174:6 211:20 216:12 218:2 219:14 225:22 260:1,12 264:16 292:17 301:17 305:9,22 306:8 316:3 317:1,7,12 318:13 319:5 320:14,18 321:5 321:21 322:2,11 323:20 324:2,13 325:4,6 326:12 327:7 365:8 366:3 368:18 369:6 370:15 403:22 404:22 442:12 responses 171:22 172:6 177:1,5 203:2 211:9,12,21 213:5 214:3 216:8 217:2,19 219:9 223:9 225:7 226:4 227:9 228:15 229:2 233:5,13,18 297:16 300:21 301:5 302:1,12 303:15 304:4 308:7 407:22 408:4 responsibilities 117:21 250:6 responsibility 140:11 responsible 47:19 120:2 141:22 142:3 responsive 120:17 120:17 243:22 248:21 305:13,17 442:6 rest 41:6 306:12 411:16 restate 432:13 result 183:5 196:11 256:15 258:22 275:9 316:22 317:20 375:7 394:22 395:10 resulted 344:1 results 172:12 385:20,22 431:12 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [results - ross] Page 61 441:8 442:9 return 118:5 188:16 451:14 reveal 72:17 74:13 293:16 441:18 442:4,5 revealed 440:18 revealing 439:15 439:19 reverse 363:8 review 13:9 40:9 64:12 129:20 143:11 251:13 252:7 256:8 257:9 365:7 369:20 380:7,11 405:17 416:15,20 430:21 reviewed 13:6,15 13:18,21,22 324:18 414:13 416:10 427:8 reviewing 17:18 39:7 revise 152:19 revised 298:11 370:10 revising 153:7 revisit 306:19 307:4,12 308:5 revisited 308:3 reyes 7:3 345:2 347:12 348:22 right 20:3 27:13 29:10,13,19 30:2 30:18,21,22 31:2 33:10 37:16,22 41:15 44:20 47:12 47:22 48:9 70:16 76:12 80:20 81:21 81:22 82:2,3,20 83:1 101:16 111:18 119:17 122:12 129:15 134:11 143:14 144:9,20 145:10 145:11 148:18 149:10 155:7 156:6 157:2,11 161:3 163:5 168:6 168:19 172:14,17 173:11 176:6,7,11 176:15 177:10,16 177:17 179:2,11 179:20 180:10 182:2 183:9,11,18 184:2,6,7 188:13 190:4 191:11,13 192:4 196:1 197:8 197:20 198:3 204:16,16 208:1,3 209:6,14,15,21,22 210:3 211:9 212:10,19 213:6 219:10 226:10 233:2,16 238:22 243:3,5,20 252:6 252:15 254:7 255:20 258:2 260:4,5,10,16 261:2 262:5,10,11 267:1,9 275:21 276:15 278:7,12 278:22 279:7 280:20 281:13 282:11 283:10 286:14,15,20 288:6 289:5,17 290:14 292:9 293:18 296:17 299:6 300:8 302:2 304:15 307:6 311:9 313:16 314:6,9 316:12 318:13 320:20 323:22 324:4 345:10 347:7 349:13 354:5 362:7 363:5,20 364:21,21 365:19 366:2,3,15 369:8 370:3 372:11 375:6,19 377:20 381:4,11 385:20 391:14 393:22 394:17 395:12 398:1,2 403:17 404:5 416:1,16 417:16 420:6 422:18 424:4 428:21 434:5 445:2,20 449:4 rights 2:16 14:11 14:15 15:3,18 16:4,9,20 18:17,21 19:2,5,8,13,16,17 19:19,21 20:2,10 20:12,13 21:9 22:5 23:22 26:12 33:5 44:12,22 54:11,17 55:4,9 56:3 65:4,8 67:22 77:18 95:3 104:1 104:5 117:20 118:3 119:21 133:15 134:12,15 134:22 135:1 137:1,6 140:3,12 140:15 142:1,3,6 150:16 151:22 152:13 153:1,16 153:21 168:22 169:15,20 175:12 181:1,2,7 182:2 188:11 190:20 194:7 195:4,6 212:3 241:2,5 249:18 250:7,8,12 250:22 253:19 256:4 259:13 286:11,12,17 289:12,13 322:6 323:14,15 325:10 327:18 328:7 341:9 368:17 371:22 373:4 374:4 383:1 396:1 401:18 402:7 404:6 406:5 414:22 415:3,6 426:6,20 437:8 riley 369:17 370:8 robert 138:18 robust 132:4 robustly 23:21 26:11 role 97:19,21 106:22 107:2 329:21 rolling 191:18 193:1 romero 345:4 ron 35:21 36:3 155:18 164:12 255:11,17 260:7 260:13 261:4,11 261:20 262:2,14 273:7,9 282:17 283:9 room 9:12 ross 35:2,16 37:1 37:19 41:9 42:20 43:7 58:12 64:4 90:1,10,17 91:5 96:15 99:22 100:3 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [ross - 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sophisticated] 234:17 257:14 368:13 397:5,6 411:20,21 433:13 434:9 sets 183:6 184:17 185:4,5 189:11 190:14 191:1,11 375:9,14 381:19 431:5 432:2 seven 352:20 382:10 sex 442:7 sexual 442:8 share 130:4,12,15 294:14,19 shared 122:18 130:19 211:13 376:18 377:1,5 378:7 405:4 sharing 130:6,9 408:3 444:17 shaw 77:19 sheet 451:8,10,12 451:15 453:11 shelby 251:4,16 shift 40:14 short 84:19 261:5 342:12 377:18,20 378:1 379:12 381:6,18 382:9,12 383:4 384:6 386:1 403:16 405:10 415:10 shortcomings 363:13 shorthand 170:18 show 22:13 26:14 30:17 47:1 58:9 79:17 102:2 105:2 110:18 115:14 119:19 132:22 Page 64 138:16 155:13 177:18 205:2,11 240:12 292:9 296:17 300:12 302:19 311:22 314:18 319:13 330:10 365:5 371:2 378:19 380:2 420:13,15 showed 119:16,20 120:6,7,12,14 165:1 245:9,13 440:7 showing 120:5 347:2 377:5 shown 119:20 120:1 shows 443:21 shrinks 391:6 shumate 3:15 10:13,13 31:11,14 134:7 293:6 294:5 294:10,14,19 295:7 446:19 447:8,9 sic 76:19 101:4 140:2 281:6 309:7 322:7 348:2 400:17 447:18 side 205:5 sign 449:4 451:10 signature 450:17 453:15 signed 161:17 315:17 significance 112:11,17 significant 359:7 363:13 384:21 significantly 183:8 375:10 signing 451:11 signoff 154:11,16 154:20 similar 251:1 379:22 401:19 simpler 219:6 simplified 433:12 simply 206:7 317:18 360:12 381:8 single 15:21 176:22 185:12 188:11,18 189:4 193:4 203:11 245:20 345:16 356:22 357:13 358:13 376:5,13 376:14 384:2 417:6,18 433:13 sit 42:18 60:6,11 86:13 184:2 325:18 348:19 351:19 355:7 356:5 357:2 358:8 358:14 360:6 362:6,19 363:19 371:1 373:19,22 374:1,15 377:3 387:12,22 388:6 389:7 400:1 405:15 sitting 44:5 87:17 221:14 situated 39:16 situation 16:22 237:14 six 171:6 221:1,5 size 179:17 180:8 195:14 245:7 389:13 390:15,21 390:22 392:2,8 skewed 361:1 slightly 392:14 small 351:13 392:4,6 smaller 197:6,14 197:14 226:6,20 228:16 232:21 248:14 388:12 389:22 390:1 391:11,13,16 395:16,17,18 smallest 33:9 234:7 snapshot 193:3 194:4 social 57:13,19 58:2 socialize 117:2 socialized 117:6 socioeconomic 377:7 software 18:2 184:22 solely 347:20 349:15 360:17 361:12 solicit 120:21 136:22 solution 186:11 solutions 1:19 4:18 9:5,7 somebody 35:21 64:1 146:20 155:6 289:9 373:10 434:6 somewhat 365:22 soon 148:9 222:1 261:7 370:10 sophisticated 431:17 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [sorry - starts] Page 65 sorry 22:14 23:6 27:12 40:5 61:11 69:3 78:11 85:7 89:8 95:22 122:10 126:4 127:8 140:8 162:21 163:4,5 167:18 171:2 182:6 198:5 201:21 209:10 222:12 224:14 225:10 231:3 249:20 255:5 261:14,19 271:8 284:11 290:22 304:10 321:14 348:9 349:10 352:4,9 360:14 372:4,6 384:12 400:18,20 412:10 417:8,10 434:12 435:20 sounded 127:9 sounds 29:10 30:22 47:22 81:22 82:3 101:16 105:20 107:22 129:15 134:11 144:9 176:7 288:6 324:4 373:21 376:21 source 25:5,21 56:14 207:9 314:15 341:21 378:5,9 383:3 384:5 432:17 sources 25:2,6,12 25:15,20 26:3,3 39:8 south 3:20 southern 1:1 8:20 space 451:8 speak 19:16 32:1 41:13 53:2 114:22 116:12 118:11 162:8 260:22 261:1 266:17 325:16 341:1 357:15 387:3 415:20 448:9 speaking 91:14 92:4 102:19 112:19 283:22 speaks 21:19 22:6 42:11 170:4 183:19 189:6 203:10 258:2 277:2 360:20 388:13 422:5 426:9 427:2 specific 78:14 84:11 113:18 248:18 263:7 272:9 279:19 441:16,17 specifically 139:14 141:18 146:11 147:7,11 266:8 274:4 285:11 297:22 299:2,16 299:22 342:5 361:21 411:4 433:14 specificity 185:5 specifics 246:17 264:2 268:6,10,13 specify 53:16 54:7 speculating 65:20 88:11 123:3 162:17 speculation 65:19 85:21 87:1 88:10 122:22 162:7,16 165:21 166:7,18 249:7 283:16 303:19 309:4 334:16 448:17 spelled 138:19 spells 410:4 spence 2:16 10:1,1 spend 415:9 416:19 spent 117:7 415:11 spoke 68:8 82:21 91:21 93:7 100:11 100:20 111:11,14 111:17 112:7 113:1 115:1,7 266:15 283:5,13 283:18 spoken 59:10 64:2 64:3,4 111:21 112:13 113:6,22 114:17 116:15 151:18 159:19 283:5 398:21 sponsored 117:8 spreadsheet 50:17 219:1 square 3:19 squarely 346:15 347:3 ssrvs 349:17 staff 14:10 19:5 20:1,9,13 31:9,19 32:6,9,13 65:4 68:10,16 69:5,11 87:9,15,19,22 88:2 88:6 90:18,22 91:6 96:15 133:18 151:22 152:13 153:1,9 256:8 257:9,9,19 258:7 258:18,19 259:4 259:13,15 263:2 263:16 264:6 275:6 278:3,17 280:3 281:19 286:16 287:15 288:16 289:4 290:6 329:13 330:1 staffer 280:11 stamp 443:13 stamped 116:1 155:16 159:13 443:12 stand 83:5 338:9 378:18 standard 43:11 149:12,13,13 156:19 157:10,14 157:17 346:10 358:7 387:18 standards 421:15 standing 361:9 437:1 stands 64:20 354:20 stanford 414:20 start 12:16 27:13 69:3 123:15 177:13 182:20 204:5 225:10 250:2 252:15 253:3 256:5 267:5 337:8 340:18 345:1 started 368:2 starting 92:16 starts 351:22 352:8 420:8 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [state - suggesting] state 3:7 9:13,15 123:4,8 141:5 180:20 181:3,6,9 181:10,13 251:22 275:5 313:15 340:18,19 341:3,4 346:18 355:6 359:14 385:17,17 386:5,7 392:9,9 399:18,21 435:22 451:7 stated 29:6 statement 31:5 109:15 127:9 161:19 182:16 245:13 321:9,10 332:5 365:7 370:2 371:10 390:7 450:8,11 statements 416:21 states 1:1,6 8:18 8:19 44:2 55:15 55:16 111:10 120:4 141:3,4 169:4 171:14,17 176:5 178:19 180:1,1 251:14 304:20 335:13 385:16 407:21 414:22 425:5 429:18 451:2 452:1 453:2 stating 222:10 257:19 258:7,18 263:3 326:6 statistical 16:12 17:2 33:22 34:4 77:14 168:1,6 171:22 172:8,18 173:6,10 174:2 175:7,14 176:21 Page 66 177:4 201:19 202:3,16 203:1,7 203:15 204:8 206:7 208:15 211:8,18 224:3 236:15 256:6,20 277:21 361:9 368:16 391:22 statistically 353:4 statistics 167:14 196:11 360:3 361:11 status 23:16 313:10 353:7 401:21 402:10,13 406:16,16 439:20 441:19 statute 342:5,20 408:15 statutes 278:10 statutory 368:14 stay 211:13 stenotypy 450:7 step 376:10 stephen 409:17 steps 55:18 427:1 427:12 steve 409:13 stick 157:19 stirring 313:11 straight 173:13 street 1:17 2:4,8 2:12 3:4,9,20 4:18 9:2 stretch 366:4 367:2,11,17 strict 30:11 strike 184:1 187:20 430:16 434:5 439:16 striking 417:5,17 418:4 string 357:18 strong 316:20 strongly 428:5 struck 298:18 struggling 56:6 stuck 348:15 studied 45:5 213:12 214:10 277:4 325:19 350:8 355:5 387:13 407:16 408:5,15 studies 213:1 study 40:15 subheading 363:5 subject 13:11 21:14 22:20 59:20 60:1 62:9 66:18 70:5 71:2,12 74:13 75:19 76:8 78:22 80:6,13 82:8 97:8 98:21 99:16 104:17 106:9 108:5 112:1 113:11 124:11 126:10 136:9 138:6 145:8 189:14 206:10 237:20 253:12 269:8 272:22 285:1 289:19 291:13 295:12 300:21 310:7 331:14 336:18 337:16 344:5 369:22 396:5 399:7 401:6 402:20 403:9 407:2 412:17 419:1 428:14 438:17 440:2 451:11 subjects 364:22 submitted 13:22 14:1 17:19 35:4 53:6 265:11 subpoenas 6:11 292:18 subsequent 102:11 152:22 444:17,22 subsequently 99:7 substance 136:5 136:14 401:3 438:14 453:10 substantial 317:1 substantive 270:15 succeed 189:9 190:2 194:8 203:13,20 237:1,7 successful 431:20 433:6 sued 350:12 399:18 sufficient 387:18 420:11 sufficiently 15:20 245:1 376:11 386:17 sug 257:20 suggest 41:10 256:10,16 257:10 257:20 258:9 259:4 407:17 suggested 260:20 264:7 280:4 289:9 379:16 405:17 409:3 suggesting 41:20 275:7,20 309:18 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [suggestion - technician] suggestion 187:2 405:4 suggestions 278:5 suggests 261:12 278:19 326:9 357:19 suit 78:3,8,19 suite 2:12,17 3:20 4:18 suited 33:14 364:6 suits 417:4 supplemental 178:11 supplements 48:3 support 43:1 47:20 90:12,19 91:9 318:6 319:10 323:1 357:20 364:5 382:4 supportive 256:5 supports 367:14 suppose 378:17 384:9 supposed 101:4 113:19 114:1,3,19 supreme 54:16 251:3 339:22 340:8 345:19 346:9,14 355:17 363:11 376:16 379:10 sure 12:8 23:7 29:18,21 30:1 32:17 49:17,19 52:8 53:19 54:17 61:12,15 80:10 85:10 90:5 91:20 92:11 96:2 110:14 112:16 114:15 154:4 163:3 172:19 173:8,14 201:22 222:14 224:16 227:14 229:10,21 232:7 233:10 265:21 269:13 273:15 276:16 280:21 296:1,6 303:20 306:10 321:8,15 324:4 328:5 331:10 333:4,14 344:13 360:21 372:1,9 375:11 382:1 384:20 387:11 390:3 391:8 397:11 400:1,2 409:4 412:13 416:22 421:10 426:12 429:16 435:13 438:10 443:19 445:11,22 survey 15:10 26:2 33:22 48:7 49:6 81:16 167:17,20 167:21 168:2,6,15 172:15,16 173:4,5 176:22 178:6 195:17 234:9 256:14 257:12 258:11,21 277:22 285:14 346:3 354:21 362:16 363:17 364:6 368:14 378:11 390:9 420:14 suspected 169:15 swapped 393:13 swapping 394:14 swear 11:5 sworn 11:8 450:5 Page 67 synthetic 223:7,16 223:20 224:17 t t 3:1 4:1 5:1,1 92:5 138:18,18 393:6 452:4 table 178:9,18 179:11 184:10,16 220:15 tainted 360:19,22 361:14 take 8:12 12:14,20 13:1 20:1,5 88:5 98:8 99:10 100:21 101:4,7,8 112:11 113:6,19 114:20 130:1 150:8 165:15 172:15 173:3 209:7,21 210:3 217:7 218:7 232:4 263:6 285:19 313:20 337:7 374:17 397:10 413:10 441:12 taken 8:15 69:15 94:12 156:12 232:12 276:9 286:6 319:3 329:5 335:3 339:14 361:4 397:16 422:12 439:20 450:3,6,11 talk 96:18 97:4 98:2 118:15 160:20 180:10 191:6 204:18,19 252:17,19 278:13 283:19 285:20,22 289:15 291:2 347:11 392:20 talked 63:18,21,22 84:15 102:12 157:20 191:7 224:18 232:20 329:11 386:11 441:4 talker 92:3 talking 17:4 22:21 23:1,7 47:11 64:19 82:1 155:21 163:8 190:15 191:4 194:21 212:7 217:11 227:14 230:14 232:18 261:18 326:2 327:6 344:22 345:1 375:13 393:19 426:4 447:2 talks 380:19 427:3 task 431:21 433:11 tasks 395:22 taxpayer 403:18 taxpayers 403:21 team 103:15 260:2 261:7 technical 17:22 186:2 187:19 256:17 259:5,13 259:15 263:16 281:18 282:7 284:8,13 286:16 287:14 288:16 289:4 290:6 329:13 330:1 technician 4:7 8:2 11:4 94:9,13 156:9,13 232:9,13 286:3,7 329:3,6 335:1,4 397:13,17 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [technician - think] 413:13,16,21 414:2 443:9 449:5 technique 223:14 361:10 techniques 223:7 223:13 225:4,5 227:8,16 228:14 229:10,17 236:16 431:18 433:4 441:5 442:3 telephone 3:8 tell 53:4 63:7 76:22 85:7 106:7 144:15 149:7 183:11 187:15 212:16 215:7 221:12 264:4 341:3 344:10 361:8 413:19 telling 115:5 214:5 216:17 240:4 270:10 275:15,18 ten 11:21 94:5 343:4 366:12 443:9,10 tenacity 273:4 tenth 1:16 3:4 9:2 tenure 251:6 teramoto 92:6 93:19 95:17 96:6 96:14,18 97:4 98:15,18 99:8 100:8,11,20 101:5 101:11,13,14 102:5,8,13,16,20 104:7 105:10,14 105:16 111:7 114:22 115:5,9 term 15:5,9 41:5 41:17 223:16 299:5 434:1 Page 68 terms 215:17 340:1 390:19 415:3,8 418:21 427:2 430:16 432:9 terri 313:22 terrific 449:3 test 346:12 testified 11:10 27:6,9,15 32:19 34:15 35:18,19 36:8 42:9 43:19 66:21 100:8 121:5 159:18 170:11 188:22 201:4 213:15 215:13 227:12 236:12 246:5 279:1,11 281:9 283:19 290:12 295:2,5 317:4 431:22 443:5 testify 11:8 12:3 21:4 27:11,17,20 27:21,22 28:22 29:5 30:3 49:1 270:9 279:22 281:11 testifying 28:6 29:1 34:7 193:21 253:1 testimony 5:9 7:16 26:21 27:1 28:9 29:19 30:2,7,12,16 30:21 32:14 33:12 34:3 35:10 37:1 40:4,11 42:3 43:4 67:11 106:21 121:9,11 146:17 157:4 162:22 163:12,15 193:16 193:18 215:11 think 19:18 21:19 239:21 242:7 22:6 24:15 30:10 246:3,10,18 247:4 32:8 34:7,21 247:7,12,18 248:4 38:14 39:16 42:9 248:8,9,16,18 43:14 45:19,20 275:11 276:6 54:15 56:7 61:1,1 279:12,18 281:2,7 61:4,7 64:18 287:4,22 291:21 69:13 71:17 73:10 300:6 308:4,10,12 73:12 76:20 82:20 308:12 311:16 82:22 86:6 93:20 318:11,19,21 94:2 95:20 107:1 326:6,18 327:3 114:5,7,9,10 338:8 339:12 121:13 125:8 370:4,10 446:8 142:14 146:7 450:4,6 148:5,20 158:9 texas 243:3 346:19 159:9 162:18 423:20 424:2 163:4 165:17 text 45:14 409:7 166:14 167:21 thank 41:16 80:11 170:4 173:19 96:1 107:19 139:9 175:19 176:12 140:9 190:9 203:4 177:17 182:12 205:19 232:8 183:20 186:3 256:1 259:22 189:6 199:11,13 321:18 343:14 202:6,18 208:20 352:12 357:8 209:15 214:21 373:8 374:12 229:7 243:10,11 397:12 423:5 248:1,11 249:1 443:10 252:7,16 253:8 thanks 261:7 258:2 264:19 262:9 273:9 283:9 266:5 267:15 thing 114:3 280:4 268:6 277:9 316:17 372:2 285:18 286:22 429:11 430:20 287:19 289:6 things 12:11 34:21 296:2,7 299:4 35:5 38:10 45:17 302:13 305:13 64:19 76:16 306:5 307:7,9 118:17 208:12 313:19 319:9 209:6 354:14 334:22 336:11 415:18 422:21 343:8 346:13 423:8 353:11,12 355:9 367:10 368:22 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [think - top] Page 69 374:2 375:11 376:3 379:15,16 386:21 387:2 388:13 390:6,7,9 390:11,13,21 398:1 404:1,5 405:12 406:13 409:2 412:12 415:19,22 418:7 418:10 421:6 422:5,6 423:13 428:4,22 433:16 441:21 thinking 52:22 53:10,12 316:17 third 178:17 195:11 199:10,12 230:13 234:5 315:15 357:21 386:12 425:7 thirty 451:16 thomas 3:3 10:7,7 thompson 47:9 48:3 165:3 thornburg 15:14 thought 62:15 121:7 144:18 148:19 231:3 264:14 271:8 357:10,16 369:3 372:16 416:13 418:11,12 419:12 thoughts 293:14 294:15,20 thread 80:2,2,6,19 95:15 96:4 102:10 102:11 138:20 139:4 145:7 254:19 262:7 274:10 314:12 330:19 three 81:1 91:15 91:18 92:8,18 93:9 105:19 151:1 176:13,14,19 178:7,11 191:19 210:6 361:6 424:8 427:1 threshold 430:3,4 thursday 144:6 tied 229:9 tiger 205:10 tigers 75:12,13 time 9:15 21:6 28:15 31:8 48:5 64:14,15,22 65:10 68:12 78:14 79:9 81:4 83:3 84:21 86:1 89:21 90:4 92:17 93:6,21 94:6,10,14 96:5,13 97:22 98:10 103:2 116:21 117:7,9,14 117:15 128:20 129:9 131:2,3 132:13 133:13 139:16 140:20 141:22 142:6 143:10 148:14 149:9 150:21 151:5,12,19 152:9 152:16 153:21 156:10,14 158:19 175:21 176:20 188:9,17,22 189:2 191:20,22 192:10 192:14 193:7,8,19 194:5,10,16 195:7 230:15 232:10,14 235:14,19 246:5 250:5 251:14 252:1 253:7,9,14 255:15 265:5,10 267:21 272:8,11 276:5 286:4,8 296:2,3 306:20 307:4 308:3 329:4 329:7,14 335:2,5 339:19 340:9,15 350:9 351:10 357:9 362:4 364:13,17,20 365:10 380:20,22 381:1,1,7,8,10,19 385:9 386:2,4 391:7 392:2 394:4 396:20 397:14,18 404:11 405:13 407:15 410:4 413:14,17,22 414:3 415:8,15 416:13,16,19 422:22 423:9,10 423:12,19 424:3 428:10,11 430:21 435:5 436:6 437:22 438:6 443:8 448:5,20 449:6 timeline 28:22 60:5 69:14 timelines 61:14 times 11:19 68:8 151:17 221:1,5 261:12 312:18,20 317:21 tina 3:3 10:7 title 103:12 165:15 211:20 212:19 213:1,16 214:22 218:14 219:5 313:4 407:20,20 titled 178:9 303:7 331:6 tlc's 349:17 today 12:1,4 15:7 31:11 42:18 44:6 57:11 60:7,11 86:13 87:17 221:14 226:2 233:4 278:16 280:20 322:4 324:9 325:19 348:19 351:20 355:7 356:6 357:2 358:8,14 360:6 362:6,19 363:19 371:1 373:20,22 374:1,15 377:3 387:12,22 388:7 389:7 392:20 400:1 405:15 407:20 428:21 444:10 told 105:20 106:6 143:11 154:21 167:3 213:4 264:19 267:15 274:22 279:3 396:2,15 448:10 tom 134:2 toomey 119:21 top 32:18 80:2 85:10 87:4 102:6 102:10,15 105:12 105:16 111:5 133:3 138:20 143:2,6 145:7 191:17 254:18 255:2,5 276:19 330:16,19 331:21 349:13 371:17 373:1 403:11,12 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [top - unable] Page 70 406:11 421:11 444:9 445:4 447:16 topaz 2:3 9:19,19 topic 49:2,14,21 270:18 331:13 335:17 336:2,6 337:12 338:4 339:18 399:2,12 411:7 432:5 topics 14:3 30:12 336:5 399:5 total 23:18 24:5,13 25:14 181:13 183:1,17 184:3 188:12,17 189:3 189:10 190:13,22 192:1 193:12 205:12,15 243:15 335:13,21 337:6 337:12 338:6,11 339:1 340:21 341:18 381:7 383:18 385:15 432:8 434:10 totally 390:3 touch 58:20 86:18 398:14 touched 64:10 town 351:8,13 354:16 398:12,18 398:21 399:3 400:17,19,19,20 400:21 401:2 tract 389:22 tracts 391:5,5 traditionally 212:3 trail 87:11 transcript 5:8 7:21 22:11 26:18 26:20 32:16 34:14 47:5 58:7 79:21 95:12 101:22 105:6 110:22 115:18 125:22 132:20 135:10 138:14 142:20 145:3 155:11 178:3 204:22 240:16 248:10 254:15 282:14 292:13 296:21 297:10 300:16 303:3 311:20 312:6 315:3 318:22 319:17 330:8 349:4 350:21 358:20 362:22 365:3 369:12 371:7 398:7 403:5 416:6 443:16 445:8 446:4 451:17,18 transcription 453:8 transcripts 13:16 transition 103:15 transmitted 119:2 traore 116:5,6 trial 348:1,13 tried 243:15 troester 138:18 139:5,8,9,20 140:2 140:5,8,18,22 141:11,16 142:2 142:15 143:18 145:17 146:10,15 146:19 147:10 158:4,14 159:1,20 160:6 troester's 144:2 true 20:15 196:11 308:1 383:22 384:4 408:20 425:2 436:17 440:15 450:8 trump 103:14 250:2 252:15 253:3,17 trust 47:21 167:5 truth 11:9,9,10 truthful 163:15 truthfully 12:4 27:6 try 12:17 52:6 54:6 61:11 72:20 86:16 172:15 173:4 185:4 200:7 200:14 205:20 222:12 226:16 227:22 248:19 394:22 418:14 trying 25:4 60:16 72:21 77:2 101:19 173:12 243:21 265:6 368:19 369:3,16 389:16 392:16,17,21 394:20 395:6 407:17 tthomas 3:6 tucker 138:19 139:5,16 140:1,6 140:18,21 141:11 141:16,22 142:15 143:18 145:16 146:10,15,19 147:10 157:21 158:4,14 159:1,19 160:5 265:19 411:1 tucker's 144:2 tuesday 158:10,11 158:13 159:5,16 159:20 turn 8:8 32:15 34:13 163:2 234:3 315:15 turning 413:19 turnout 424:21 two 26:2 34:21 37:11,13 61:13 63:17,18,20 73:10 74:19,22 75:8 82:22 83:1 93:16 96:9 111:7 183:6 184:17 185:3 189:11 190:14 191:1,10 305:16 330:10 354:10,19 356:9 361:6 375:9 375:14 381:19 421:14,17 424:10 424:15 432:2 typewriting 450:7 typical 391:14 u u 3:1 4:1 92:5 u.s. 3:15 4:3 18:17 195:16 340:7 398:12 402:16 446:9 uh 12:12 60:10 143:4 163:1 212:9 324:10 347:14 ultimate 322:16 323:10 ultimately 154:6 276:18 278:4 319:7 323:7 unable 189:9 193:18 194:8 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [unable - vague] 203:13,20 237:1,7 262:17 263:4 347:19 349:14 uncertainties 353:5 uncertainty 234:12 understand 11:22 13:7 36:6,13 37:18 39:9,15 41:18 53:17 56:17 57:8,10 76:14,18 81:14 82:6 83:18 85:3,18 86:4,14 87:22 106:17 108:2,14,21 109:7 110:3 111:13,20 113:5 114:19 119:22 124:18 150:4 153:4 155:1 165:4 172:9,17,20 173:9,22 179:6 191:14 194:22 196:5,16 205:20 213:6,11 214:22 221:8,10 223:19 225:3 227:3,22 231:1 236:3 237:12 256:21 257:5,6 259:3 276:13,16 277:4 278:22 279:2 280:15 287:2 296:1 318:4 322:21 323:20 325:6 326:14 344:14 357:4 366:21 376:3 386:22 390:19 405:7 408:7 414:19 415:5 Page 71 424:20 430:7 432:12 438:8 understanding 15:22 36:22 37:7 37:7 41:8 45:3 48:1 64:1,9 67:5,7 67:17,18 68:5 69:4,7,8,9,10 83:22 84:2 95:1 112:9,10 130:8,11 139:22 150:20 164:17 171:8,12 171:15 174:18 177:2,7 179:1 184:12 193:15,20 196:21 197:4 201:15 202:10 207:14 211:11,16 212:1 213:15 215:3,15,22 222:4 222:14,22 224:4 244:11 245:5 257:17 258:5,14 258:16 267:21 277:1,6 278:6 280:8 304:19 307:13 310:2 391:3 399:13,15 407:22 432:21 understood 29:12 35:10 41:20 66:22 86:1,13 97:22 111:15 112:17 113:20 177:9 209:16 253:6 407:16 438:11 undocumented 400:8 unfortunate 368:6 369:1 unfortunately 367:19 441:12 union 2:3 181:13 252:1 unit 8:14 33:9 47:19 94:10,13 156:10,13 232:10 232:13 234:7 286:4,7 329:6 397:14,17 united 1:1,6 8:18 8:19 44:2 55:15 55:16 120:3 141:3 141:4 169:4 171:14,17 176:5 407:21 414:22 425:5 429:18 451:2 452:1 453:2 units 197:15 university 315:18 414:20 unlawful 399:20 unquote 399:8 420:19 unreliable 363:12 unsuccessful 190:12 417:3 unsuitable 346:4 unusual 252:4 upcoming 81:16 updated 354:21 updates 261:5 upheld 243:16 360:2 urge 363:7 urged 362:15 url 195:19,20 196:3 240:20 312:21,22 usable 180:7 use 24:17,21 33:15 34:16 38:11 45:13 149:4,11 156:5 177:13 178:7 179:3,7 180:20 181:18 183:1 185:12 192:2 193:12,13 207:1 207:11 209:2 223:7 225:6 235:20 236:7 243:15 299:17 300:1 337:5 338:11 342:21,22 343:2 346:4 360:22 361:9,21 363:6 377:2,6 378:2 379:13 402:12,15 424:20 426:22 427:11 431:5 432:2,7,14 433:9,20 441:5 uses 41:17 48:6 181:13 247:21 usual 399:8,10,14 usually 196:9 uthmeier 92:5 93:15,16,17 94:1 116:11,15,18 117:3,12,14,15,20 118:2,12,19 119:8 121:14,18,21 122:2,5,14 125:13 uthmeier's 118:5 utilized 368:12 400:9 utilizing 256:13 v v 1:5 15:6 183:3 vague 14:6 20:4 44:16 90:14 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [vague - want] Page 72 112:15 123:20 138:4 160:16 333:21 valerie 3:18 10:19 valerie.nannery 3:21 validity 168:2,6,15 value 196:9 vap 430:3 various 13:5 16:14 17:18 25:1 39:7 39:18 89:20 92:13 151:16,17 165:18 166:4,15 168:15 207:13 265:16 276:10 277:11,20 331:1 353:5 vary 183:7 375:10 vehicle 79:6,13 169:17 170:2,8,13 275:2,17 276:1,2 276:12 279:4,5 426:17 verbally 12:10 verification 279:14 verify 49:1 161:11 279:13 326:16 331:10 373:9,19 373:22 veritext 1:18 4:18 9:5,7 version 116:1 138:22 373:13 versions 143:9 versus 7:3,4,6,7 8:17 15:14 35:20 55:15 77:19 340:1 345:2,3,3,4,5,8 346:16 347:4,12 348:22 350:15 355:19 357:21 358:22 362:7 363:3 366:20 379:10 425:6 429:19 video 4:7 8:2,11 8:15 11:4 94:9,10 94:13,14 156:9,10 156:13,14 232:9 232:10,13,14 286:3,4,7,8 329:3 329:4,6,7 335:1,2 335:4,5 397:13,14 397:17,18 413:13 413:14,16,17,21 413:22 414:2,3 443:9 449:5,6,6 videographer 9:6 videotaped 1:12 449:8 view 33:2 38:12 51:22 52:11 70:20 77:12 78:6,17 79:5,8,12,15 163:9 163:11 226:14 233:10 257:1 287:21 308:21 310:3,18 318:1,6 319:4 321:19 325:21 327:13 355:6 359:14 362:5 364:14 422:11 428:7,10 430:19 441:12 viewed 46:9 380:14 views 162:1,5,13 287:16 288:8,17 violate 212:19 violating 219:5 violation 380:5 violations 25:7 169:15 185:10,12 207:18 virginia 385:17,22 386:1,4 virtue 113:20 vote 181:15 183:3 345:13 346:16 356:18 359:22 363:10 403:17 431:7,9 432:16 voter 424:21 voters 350:12 429:20 430:1,13 voting 14:11 15:3 15:6,18 16:4,8,20 19:8,11,13 21:8 22:5 23:19,22 24:5 26:12 31:18 32:5,9,12,21 33:3 33:5 54:10,17 55:4,8,14 56:3 65:7 67:22 77:18 94:22 103:22 104:5 117:20 118:3 126:7 131:8 134:15,22 140:3 140:12,15 168:22 169:14,14,20 174:9 175:12 181:1,2,7 182:1 188:11 190:20 192:1 194:7 195:3 195:6 196:17 206:6,8 208:10 209:7,13 234:13 240:20 241:1,2,4 250:7,8,12,22 251:13 253:19 256:4,12 266:4 298:8,17 341:9,18 345:13 346:11,17 355:22 356:3,19 357:11 358:10 359:4 368:17 371:21 373:4 374:4 376:1 380:4 380:13 383:1 396:1 401:17 402:7 404:6 406:4 415:3,6 423:14 424:12,16,19,20 426:6,20 432:10 437:8 443:22 vra 34:5 77:15 78:3,8 79:7,14 135:5 170:3,9,14 174:16,22 175:6 176:1 180:16 189:10 192:8 193:16 194:9 197:12 203:8,14 203:20 204:5,7 233:9,21 235:3 236:6 237:2,7 240:9 245:21 257:2 266:4 271:15 272:1 275:3,8 286:14,20 288:14 299:12 300:10 vs 451:1 452:1 453:1 w wait 12:15 waive 125:4 wall 103:16 want 12:20 24:18 24:21 26:14 30:6 32:14 38:11 47:1 68:10,17 69:5,12 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [want - witness] 70:1 80:16 94:17 106:17 131:17 132:1 156:7,17 167:9 172:20,22 182:18 196:15 204:19 205:20 206:3,4,16 208:21 209:1 211:2 214:19 217:13 221:21 222:1 227:2 234:3 248:18 254:22 255:14 275:12 283:8 284:8,13,17 286:12 292:9,19 295:16 297:4,5,21 302:13 306:6,8 307:2 308:19 323:18 330:10 335:11 344:13 347:11 375:3,4 380:18 381:11 382:4 386:10,12 388:20 393:13 394:22 420:6 421:9 429:4 443:7 443:11 445:2,22 446:14 447:14 wanted 29:18,21 30:1 43:7 130:12 130:15 132:8,9,12 249:2 265:8 267:17 271:4 278:21 288:15 289:4,16 369:5 377:21 378:19 425:18,20 wanting 163:19 268:8 wants 164:7 165:5 249:9 288:13 Page 73 289:12 420:22 war 75:12 washington 1:9,17 2:4,12,17 3:5,16 3:20 4:4,19 9:2 watched 35:8 way 15:16 37:16 66:6 72:20 77:14 79:9,16 104:2 123:4,8 152:11 173:1,21 176:17 183:20,22 186:13 188:14 196:17 209:6 210:10 213:14 216:5,21 229:12 230:1 231:18 233:11 239:10,12,16 253:8 256:11 257:1,11,21 258:9 259:16 264:7,14 267:17 275:7,20 277:18 278:2,19 281:4 284:5 285:10,10 295:17 325:22 327:13 334:19,20 351:11 353:18 359:15 360:19 361:14 369:19 388:7 392:13 393:8,8 394:13,14 395:7 396:16,22 409:6 428:16 429:5 431:9 436:3 439:13 444:20 445:1 447:12 ways 183:22 256:8 309:16 379:4 409:12,16 we've 94:4 132:22 155:21 186:11,13 216:19 230:14 232:5 343:8 379:16 382:13 397:9 411:1 445:22 website 6:5,6,7 47:21 177:19 178:6 195:18 205:10 240:19 245:10 wednesday 96:6 week 81:13,19,20 81:20 83:1 118:10 260:15,20 261:3 262:19 273:9 weekend 73:11 75:9,14 82:22 143:11 weeks 128:19 141:9,11 wendy 92:5 93:19 95:17 96:6 105:16 110:16 went 17:15 52:22 61:9 62:2,6 63:1 114:6 157:15 158:5,18 160:12 269:11 339:22 372:17 westlaw 349:1 wheeler 134:3 whispering 8:6 white 58:20 409:20 411:15 wide 393:17 wilbur 58:12 332:1,12 willing 370:18 win 190:18 379:18 418:10 419:9 window 194:4 wisely 406:7 wish 87:12 88:8 286:2 wishes 260:9 witness 11:5 13:12 20:5 21:19 28:3,3 28:5,6,10,14,18 30:10 37:18 39:22 42:9 44:5,17 48:17 49:10 50:3 50:10 51:5,11,17 52:5,15 54:3,14 55:11 57:17,22 60:4 62:11 63:7 65:20 66:6,21 68:3,20 70:11 71:3,4,17 72:11 74:18 75:8,22 76:9 79:1 82:13 83:13 85:7,22 86:6 87:2 88:11 88:22 90:15,22 91:12 97:13 98:22 99:4,18 103:11,19 104:20 106:10,15 108:6,10,17 109:3 109:11,21 110:7 110:14 112:2,3,16 113:15 114:12 121:9,10 123:21 124:16 125:18 132:1 134:18 136:10,11,18 138:10 146:17,18 147:18 149:4 153:4 154:15 157:4,5 158:17 160:17 162:8,17 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [witness - years] 164:3 165:22 166:8,19 167:8 169:7 175:18 185:22 186:19 187:4,13 189:18 190:6,9 191:13 206:15 208:19 210:10 211:1 213:1 214:10 215:11,12,22 216:16 218:6 219:17 222:22 223:12 226:13 228:7 229:7 230:9 231:15,21 232:8 236:20 238:1,5,18 239:20 241:13 242:2,19 249:8 250:15 253:10 254:2,10 269:9 273:1,2 277:15 278:2 279:10 280:15 282:2 283:17 285:7 286:22 287:19 288:20 290:2 291:18 303:20 306:10 308:10,11 309:5 310:13 311:1,15 317:15 318:19,20 321:8 322:16 324:18 325:16 327:4 332:9 333:2,22 334:17 337:1,21 338:8,9 339:12,13 344:6,7 346:7 347:7 350:7 355:3 356:5 372:6 374:8 374:20 378:18 381:22 383:14 Page 74 386:21 387:11,21 389:5 393:10 396:11 401:10,11 402:2,21,22 407:9 412:22 413:8 419:7,16 420:3 428:18 430:7 434:17 435:13 436:12,15 438:18 438:19 440:3,4,22 447:1 448:18 450:4,6 451:5 witnesses 27:22 28:13 279:22 wonderful 369:9 wondering 371:16 372:21 385:12 word 227:2 247:3 276:3 298:18 299:17 300:2 352:1 359:3 360:22 361:1 wording 342:19 words 149:4,11 267:14 276:3 302:16 309:21 work 13:11 45:15 45:18,20 77:17,21 150:2 166:10 209:6 260:8,15,21 277:21 322:8 323:15 396:1,15 401:8 worked 58:22 103:6,11 117:16 133:14 165:10 working 14:20 67:16,18 68:4 83:22 84:2 150:20 256:19 410:5 works 91:2 36:2 40:8 45:16 world 25:3,3 50:3 65:20 82:3 208:22 353:18 94:7 103:4 118:4 421:17 121:16 145:11 wrap 449:1 146:18 152:18 wreck 313:6,12 157:12 180:3 write 96:18 126:16 182:5 185:22 127:18 143:6 232:5 258:15 145:13 146:22 260:5 269:3 258:3 385:4 270:19 271:6,9 writes 48:2 85:11 287:19 288:11 87:5 106:6 107:22 289:18 305:7 109:6,14 110:2 306:2 324:6 115:7 135:16 333:22 340:11 259:22 260:7 359:22 367:16 261:4,11 262:2,8 381:22 417:13 262:14 283:4 year 73:12 87:9 315:12 168:22 176:6,10 writing 87:10,10 176:10,13,14,19 258:18 176:21,22 177:3,6 written 7:16 31:5 177:9,10,12,15 44:3 264:5 275:5 178:7,7,7,10,10,11 282:22 368:8 178:11,15,20 446:8 179:2,6,12,16 wrong 27:12 159:8 180:1,6 191:19,19 192:7 234:22 191:19 193:1,3,4 316:15 418:7 193:10,17 194:4 421:18 203:21 204:2,11 wrote 31:4 127:3 241:4 244:13,18 127:12 137:9 244:21 245:6,15 141:7 145:22 245:22 246:7,8,12 148:1,6 149:19 246:14,20,21 150:21 278:17 247:6,11 248:3,14 406:12 249:3 260:15 382:5 385:16 x 386:2 x 1:2,8 years 165:11 y 173:15 174:5,14 y 410:3 193:3,10,11 252:5 yeah 16:1 29:10 252:9 342:4,18 29:16 30:19 31:13 343:4,5 350:11 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 [years - zadrozny] 351:9 354:16 366:12 382:6,10 386:9,9 423:13 yesterday 127:20 135:17 yield 180:13 182:8 york 1:1,3 2:2,17 8:17,21 9:17 11:12 312:18,20 317:21 451:1 452:1 453:1 z z 410:3,3 zadrozny 410:1,13 410:14 412:12,14 Veritext Legal Solutions 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830 Page 75 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure Rule 30 (e) Review By the Witness; Changes. (1) Review; Statement of Changes. On request by the deponent or a party before the deposition is completed, the deponent must be allowed 30 days after being notified by the officer that the transcript or recording is available in which: (A) to review the transcript or recording; and (B) if there are changes in form or substance, to sign a statement listing the changes and the reasons for making them. (2) Changes Indicated in the Officer's Certificate. The officer must note in the certificate prescribed by Rule 30(f)(1) whether a review was requested and, if so, must attach any changes the deponent makes during the 30-day period. DISCLAIMER: THE FOREGOING FEDERAL PROCEDURE RULES ARE PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY. THE ABOVE RULES ARE CURRENT AS OF SEPTEMBER 1, 2016. PLEASE REFER TO THE APPLICABLE FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE FOR UP-TO-DATE INFORMATION. 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