UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

))OEE I CIAL) ONAOIHENIICAIED))
,'/73/SSI//

1

[The R.M.C. 806 session was called to order at 0935,

2

16 December 2016.]

3

MJ (Col SPATH]:

This mil i tary corruniss i on is ca l led to order .

4

This session has been closed in accor dance with 10

5

Rule for Military Commiss i on R . M.C. 806{b) (2).

6

o.s.c.

949d(C) and

The commi ssion gave notice to the public and the part i es of

7

its decision to conduc t

8

Exhibits 359G and 092X.

this c l osed session in Appellate
The accused is not present.

Trial Cou nsel, please account fo r the members of the team

9

10

who are present currently.

11

TC [ MR . MILLER) :

12

MJ

13

TC ( MR. MILLER) :

Good morning , Your Honor.

[ Col SPATH]:

Good morni ng .
You r Honor, p resen t

today for the prosecution

14

is mysel f, Mark Miller; Lieutenant Paul Morris ; Lieutenant Jonathan

15

Cantil ; Lieu tenant Cherie Jolly; Master Sergeant

18

was called out but he will be returning at some point s h ortly .

19
20

Mr .

Al l persons i ncluding, obviously, Brigadi er General
Martins ,

have the n ecess?ry cle~r~nces , Your Honor .

21

MJ [Col SPATH) :

Thank you.

22

LDC [MR . KAMMEN]:

Thank you.

Defense Counsel?

Good morni ng, Your Honor .

1
/ / J . . J / V V .L. / /

/ ;'GP l?I@!!ftB/8llt i8Till!l!Q I I 8f:JJ!gl!l;f/

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

Presen t

for the

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

;' /@l?Fi@iMs/ ~mz~!llBlffi@i':!1!!18/ ;'
, / ;' T8/88I;E;'

1

de fense are myself, Richard Kammen; Attorneys Rosa E l i ades ;

2

Lieutenant Commander Je nnifer Pollio ; and Mary Spears ; para l egal

3

Sergeant

4

para l egal ; DSO, Mr.

5
6

7
8
9

Ms. Brandi J anes,
a nd Brigadier General John Baker .

Eve ryone has the necessary c l earances.

MJ [ Col SPATH] :

All ri ght .

Thank you .

here and ready to go, Trial Counse l ?

At last time we checked he was not.

TC [MR. MI LLER) :

I was

g o i ng t o ask

10

MJ [ Col SPATH] :

11

TC [ MR . MILLE R] :

12

MJ [ Col SPATH] :

13

TC [ MR . MILLER] :

14

going to ask Petty Off i cer

Remember the microphone .
Oh ,

I ' m sorry, Your Honor .

That 's all right .
Last t i me we checked , he was not, so I am
to check again.

15

MJ [ Col S PATH] :

16

CP [BG MARTINS] :

Tha nk you, Your Honor .

17

TC [MR. MILLER]:

He is still not here .

18

MJ [ Col SPATH ] :

19

Is Colonel Gabavics

Al l

right .

General Mar tins has returned .

Still wai t ing on Colone l Gabavics .

Okay.

Hopeful ly he• 1 1 be here soon.

20

TC [ MR, MI LLER];

Hopeful l y .

21

MJ ( Col SPATH):

22

o utsta nding issue is 092 .

Thank you, Yo ur Hono r .

So separate from Col one l Gabavics, the
We had a coupl e orders of bus i ness.

2
/;5!8 ;'. 8 OI ;'.;'
/

I I (OPDICI]
I , (U
ll?PTP
P l...lTI
_ ._ ._ .._ ..._,. .._,.. .. ....,
...., ..
........,. _.. .. J,. .._.
... ...._ GDTFO
.....,.__.....
._., ( t I

UNCLASSI FIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

Defense, I think you wanted me to see the proposed

1
2

substitute.

I s that

3

LDC [MR . KAMME N] :

4

MJ [ Co l SPATH]:

5

LDC [MR . KAMMEN):

I did, b ut you can ' t - - -Okay .
because i t can ' t be shown i n the

6

courtroom .

That , of course, bears, we think, on the inadequacy of

7

the subs t i tution , that it can' t be shown i n t he courtroom .

8

We can make arrangements , i f everyone wants to go to -

9

for you to see it , but tha t woul d require everyone going i nto a

10

r a t he r cramped fac ilit y.

But we ' ve b e en tol d that the r e's - - at

11

least for t his session , there's no way to make it availabl e to you.

~

12

13
14

MJ [ Co l SPATH] :

All r i g h t.

And i t ' s in the record a lready , I

know, as one of the appe l lat e exhibi ts .
LDC [MR. KAMMEN]:

Well , that may be in the record , but part of

15

t h e i s sue , of cou rse, is

16

MJ [Col S PATH) :

17

LDC [MR . KAMMENJ:

18

MJ [Col SPATH) :

19

LDC [MR. KAMMEN] :

20

MJ

[Col SPATH ]:

Th at was in the---It ' s not in t he record i n thi s case .
It ' s not i n the record with both of you

Right.
- - -- and I have not seen it, as I ment ioned .

21

So let•s do this.

Let ' s mark your proposed exh ibit, which I

22

r ecognize i s the -- wh a t ever the gove rnme n t g ave you .
3
;' /IO /8 0I ;f ;f
;' ;<er fH!IAb/t.mfreJTll2ltJTI@:i'tT@B;'/

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

I

<IJ' -onrz
arr r <rrzz r m· 1nazmz ca m·ns c <
' -'- J... .&.'-'.t...4l..&..IF VL.~-'•v,.1,~u•...t.r.'C.1,wl,..VC,,.l..1,..tV/ /

;';'TS;'S@!;'/

LDC [ MR . KAMMENJ:

1

2

We don't have that here becau se it's so

highly classified, we couldn't transport i t .

3

MJ [Col SPATH ]:

4

LDC [MR . KAMMEN ] :

5

MJ [Col SPATH] :

No , I understand.
Okay.
That

way for me when I -- because I assure you

6

what I am going to do is go see it , either on a break or right when

7

we' re done t oday.

And l e t me j ust check.

8
9

10

on the island , do you know?
(Con~e:rred. with courtroom personnel.]
[Col SPATH ] :

Okay.

11

MJ

12

LDC [MR. KAMMEN]:

13

MJ [Col SPATH] :

14

You can o r cannot?
Can , C- A-N .

If there 's a ny issues , I ' ll let

So let me j ust first chec k with the cou rt reporters.
What 's ne xt in 092?

17
18

Apparently . I can .

you know through. a fi l ing or somehow .

15

16

Is that something I can go see here

Zulu .

So General Martins, my plan is the defense

All ri ght.

received in d iscovery I think a proposed substitute or

19

LDC [MR. KAMMEN] :

20

MJ [Col SPATH]:

That's what we've been told .
And r•m going to go look at that, but I want

because your filing was an ex par te filing,

I want to make this

21

to

22

an in camera f iling, or i n a closed session filing, one between us ,

4
//-L..:JJ..J\.,,.J..//

//l!Sfl!'I@!!HtlS/8HHeTmmTie:'1Hlt,//

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

//TS/SCI//

1

which is your -- you want me to see what you were given, obviously .
LDC [MR . KAMMEN]:

2

I mean, we would prefer -- I

Right.

3

understand the mechanics, and we would prefer that it actual l y be

4

done a t a set ting when we were all together .

5

And he re----

6

MJ !Col SPATH):

I would , too, in some ways.

7

LDC [MR . KAMMENJ:

Here's where I think we're a t .

8

they fi led their motion to supplement.

9

coming.

10

You know,

We have some idea of what's

We haven ' t received the supplement ye t.

I belie ve that

motion to supplement is going to require an evidentiary hearing .
And so I think what we will have t o do , among o t her t hings

11
12

between now and March, is we'll reques t witnesses; they' l l deny the

13

witnesses; we'l l requ est discovery; they'l l deny the d iscove ry.

14

March we'll come he r e on the mot i on to compe l .
MJ [Col SPATH):

1'5

1'6

In

And maybe i t ' s some t hing I can rule on ahead of

time .

17

LDC [MR. KAMMEN] :

18

MJ [Col SPATH):

19

LDC [MR . KAMMENJ:

Perhaps.

And----

If we get there .
But I do think there wil l have to be a rather

20

extensive e videntiary hear-ing, because essential ly, as I unde r stand

21

their position, thi s is no longer their responsibility .

22

peopl e 's fault,

you know -- -5

,';' J. B/32!//
I

6

rannzara:
I I
..,_ ._,..._J.J/ (JJSZJTZTTZE)JWTOTTGP
Vl...._"~'-'~ ·"•"""'1.~.a. ..a. - ~ ~ • '-'-,/ I

I V'4 .I.

UNCLASSIFIEID//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

I t's other

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

,<;l@FFICiftL/ellJlrOEf!IB!J'f I CltTEB/ ;1
//TS/SCI//

1

MJ

2

mar k it yet .

3

hopefull y in our next time toge ther, h ave come up with the capability

4

to show it here , because a t some point, presumab l y, if we get t o

5

tr i al , assuming , of cour se, that your motion s a r e n ' t granted -- if

6

they ' re granted, overcome by events -- i f t h ey' re not granted and

7

we 're sitting he r e t r y i ng to show t he court members , we're goin g to

8

have t o d emons t rate a way to do i t, so .

9

[Col SPATH ] :

So maybe the b est option -- I ' m n ot going to

I know what the next exhibi t is .

LDC [MR, KAMMEN] :

10

MJ [Col SPATH ] :

11

LDC [MR . KAMMEN):

What we ' ll do ,

Right .
Okay.
And , again , we can have additional argument,

12

but I think real l y the most i mpor tant thi ng i s we would like the

13

commission to enter an ord!er today orderi ng the p rosec ut ion and all

14

government agencies withi n the United States Government, or agencies

15

wi th which t h e Uni ted Stat es Government has a relationsh ip , foreign

16

agencies , to cease any work t hat may b e be i ng done on this s i te, to

17

preserve it as it is today .

18

Because in the event you rule t h at there was -- either t he

19

subst i tutio n is inadequate or that there is add i t i onal i nves ti gat i on

20

t hat needs tc be done, we need access to what remain s .

21
22

And I think i n fairness , espec i ally g ive n the f act now that
the prosecution is comi ng in wi th new facts that they ' ve d i s c over ed ,

6

// .i.~ / ._, @_.. //
5 /OE EICIAL} ONAB lll!!!EJI IC.AI l!.15//

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

I

I V- .1. I. ,l.. \,,,,;.J,.r,...U /

Vl.'H,.V J.. J. U,.i~".J. ..a. \,,,,c, .t,..._, V / /

//TS;'OCI;'/

1

di sco vered five mo n ths a ft e r thi s i ssue arose , i n fa ir ness,

2

should be an order preservi ng the status quo.

3

[Knock on cour·t xoom door. ]

4

MJ [Col SPATH ]:

5

LDC [MR . KAMMEN] :

6

MJ [Col SPATH ] :

7

8
9

10

I have a f eel ing our wi t n e ss is her e.
I t h ink so .
Thank you .

The witness is here?

All right .

Hold fi r e .

We 'l l come

b a ck to this - - - LDC [MR, KAMMEN]:
MJ [Col SPATH] :

Okay .
---- and we •· 11 tal k some more.

11

Co l o n el Gabavics i n he r e and finish h i s t es timony .

12

just have Colone l Ga b avi cs come in .

13

[ STEPHEN E . GABAVI CS entered the courtroom. ]

14

there

MJ

[Col SPATH] :

Let ' s get
I f you would ,

Colonel Gabav ics, j u s t take you r seat rig ht

15

t h ere .

I kno w t hat you ' re t he same Colone l Gab avics who testified

16

I b el i eve it wa s y e s t e r d a y, under o ath .

17

u nd er oath , okay ?

18

WIT :

19

MJ

Just r eme mbe r you're st il l

Ye s, s i r .

[Co l SPATH) :

Al l right .

And Defense Counsel.

20

COLONEL STEPHEN E. GABAVICS , U.S. Al:m.y, was reca11ed as a wi tness for

21

the defense, reminded he was stil1 under oath, and testified as

22

fo11ows:
7

//TS/8@ ! //
//er r ..:e I AL/~W!d:fl't!EUT I C~TEE//

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/ /6FFICIAb/UlJPtU'fIIEtlT! GP.'PDB/ ;'

//'i'O/SCI;';'

DIRECT ~NATION (CONTINUED)

1

2

Questions by the Learn.eel Defense Counsel [MR. KP.MMEN] :

3

Q.

Good morni ng aga in.

4

A.

Good morni ng .

5

Q.

Just a few housekeepi ng questions.

6

I n preparat ion for your

testi mony, d i d you review any documents?

7

A.

I revi ewed SOPs in rel~tion t o t hings, yes.

8

Q.

Okay .

9

And would you ide nt i f y f or the recor d t he specifi c

SOPs you reviewed.

10

A.

By number, I don't know the number off the top of my head.

11

Q.

Okay.

12

A.

It

13
14
15

16

17
18

19

Wha t d i d they perta in t o?

re l ates to our overall guard force a nd structu r e and how

we a l locate the f orces.
Q ..

And were thes e S0Ps that you had p r epared or t hat had been

prepared prior to you corni n g he r e ?
A.

Prior to the time I had come here, and then also r e v i ewed

and modi f i ed by minor things.
Q.

Okay.

And what modi fica t ions did you -- if we ge t those

SOFs, will we be able to identify what modifications you made ?

20

A.

The modifications would have been very minor.

21

Q.

I'm sorry?

22

A.

Modi f i c ation s would have been very minor , i f anythi ng,
8
//T!:'1/!:'leI;'/
,

C, (OSFT?Il!
(SJSZJPTIJFtzTTOXTFP
( I(
.._....._ .._ . . _ _ ..,_,. .... ...., ,
.._, 1,'1' .&. 6 ' - ' • ' 6 ~ L ~..4.--.'-'L"" .._A.J ._. ,,

UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

;' ;'eFFI e!If&fs/@;thre!LI8HTI e!.!l!T~"/ ;'

1

within those .

2

our Camp-

So basica ll y i t would have been l ike when we closed

woul d have be·en about i t.

3

Q.

Okay .

4

A.

No.

5

Q.

Okay .

6

Now , have you r evi ewed any other documen t s?

And have you -- I assume at some point you've spoken

with the prosecution about your t es t imony?

7

A.

Yes .

8

Q.

On how many occasions?

9

A.

Once about the t estimony -- twice .

10

Q.

Okay.

11

A.

The first time I believe was las t

12

Q.

Okay.

13

A.

And t hen t he next time was on Wednesday afternoon .

14

Q.

Okay.

And when di d t hose conversations occur?
Friday.

as I r eviewed wh at you told u s

Now, to be

15

yesterday, my understanding is tha t t h is i s the first time you've

16

ever been in c ha~ge o f a l ong- term det ention fac il ity .

17

understand that correctly?

18

A.

That i s correct .

19

Q.

Okay .

20

was i n Mr. a l

21

t he t hree or four nigh t s of a week l y session.

22

that?

Did I

And you t old us yesterday that you did not thi nk i t

Nashiri ' s bes t i nt erest that he remain here for, say,
And why do you say

Why do you have that opini on?
9
I

I

.L V / V V J,. / " ,

HO£ L±C!Ab) OhMH!l!!!EII ICliI!!!IS//

UNCLASSIFIEIO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCILASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/ ;'8P1?I 0I?As/UUAeET!!l!ll!TI Olt'fl!l8/ ,'
;t;'Te ,reeI ;r;r

A.

1

My opi nion of that is based upon the living conditions that

2

are here versu s what he has a t Camp VI I .

3

smaller than what he has; he has no open- air access Like he has at

4

Camp VII with his recreat ion yard; inabili ty to do anything communal

5

wi t h the rema inder of t he detainees , corrununal prayer, conununa l meals ,

,6

anything of t hat nature ; d o not have the medical faci l i t i es here that

7

we have out at the camp; don 't have the library, the o t her fa cilities

8

that

he has .

9
10

So bas ically he woul d be here with virtua l ly noth ing du ring
a period of time

11

Q.

Sure.

12

A.

---- for his we ll -be ing .

13

Q.

Okay .

14
15

17

The f ac i lities here are

Anyth i ng else pertaining to Mr . al Nashiri , other

than what you just told us?
A.

No.

Q.

Okay.

And you also indicated you didn' t believe i t was in

the fac ili ty ' s best interest .

Can you tel l us why you believe t hat?

18
l '9

20
21
22
10
;'/T8/88I/;'
//eFPI CHdS;' e1eJ1t~H, ,!MT I @i"tU!B;' /

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

;'. /8Fl!'I IH!itIS;'.UHMHilb£41 H!ilH!!S) /

//TS/SCI//

1

Q.

Okay .

2

3
4

s
6
7

8
9

10
11

12
13

14

15

16
17

18
19
20

21
22
11
I

I

..L V / o...JV .&.. /

I

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

I

f

'--"• ~

J. '-,,J.C:U.J/

V L... rl.V LJ. ll:., l ' f i _iL,.t"'\. ,L CJ U /

/

//'fO/O@I//

1
2

3

4
5
6

7
8
9

10
11

12

Q.

Cou ld you say that -- i t would he l p everyone if you coul d

tal k a litt le s l ower.

13

A.

I 'm sorry.

14

Q.

Wh at was your last sentence?

Q.

Okay.

15
16
17

18

Al l right.

19
20
21
22
12
;f ,FTSJ ,fB@I;' , f
;'. ;f 0 FE I 8Iilh/UIIMH1ll!l.UTI l!!lf:HlB ;'. ;f

UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

;f ;' 81?!?! 8Ilils/8UI 1i@!JT1ll!il.!T I @FIT!!!;'/

//£3/SCI//

1

A.

I thi n k that prett y much sums it up.

2

Q•

Okay.

.3

Al l

righ t .

Now, we were -- have you ever spok en

wi th Mr. a l Nashir i ?

4

A.

Very briefly .

5

Q.

Okay .

6

A.

That was about three wee ks ago .

7

Q.

Why?

8

A,

I t was purely meeting wi t h a couple of the l ead e rs withi n

9
10
11

12

And when was that?

the blocks to get an ide a of what they t hought are i ssues wi thin t he
camp.
Q.

Okay.

And before t hat meeting -- I

open s e ss i on , and the prosecut i on object ed.

t hink I

asked you i n

When you came he r e , did

13

14
15

A.

I have heard different things .

nor have I

I ' ve never been informed

16

f ormal l y on the t h i ngs ,

17

of it, as my responsibilit y is not t o look at the ir hi storical past.

18

I t ' s abou t respons i bi l i t y of cari ng and treating for them now.

19

Q.

Okay.

res e arched t he histor i cal aspects

So let me mak.e sure I understand wh at you j u.st sa id.

20

Has somebody specifically advised you , when you assumed t his command,

21

t hat you were not to l ook at the i r historical past?

22

A.

No .

13
;f;fH;fi H;f;f

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

/ ;\_.,ppr .1. C!A1J/e.l'JAO .1 PIEtG i ICA J. ED//
;t Jt I 3 /SC I//

1

Q.

Okay.

:2

A.

That ' s a decision that I made.

3

Q.

Okay .

That was a decision you made?

And as a prison administrator, do you know whether

4

or not sort of declining to look a t an inmate ' s historical past is in

5

accord with the accepte~ standards of prison adminis tration?

6

A.

We l l ,

first off, i t's not a prison here, once again .

7

a law of war detention facility.

8

d i fference because i t is significantly different , the way we

9

Q.

All r i ght .

TC [ MR. MI LLER):

11

LDC [MR. KAMMEN ]:

12

MJ [Col SPATH] :

13

WIT:

14

MJ [Col SPATH):

Okay .

Go ahead.

Keep rambling.

Go a little slower t hough.

You speak fast .

That's okay, but they, over to

my right ----

WIT :

17

MJ ( Col SPATH]:

18

Q.

20

Your Honor, can he fin i sh his answer?

Okay .

16

19

So I do l ike to make that

Can we use ----

10

15

It is

They can't type f ast enough .
They a re t aking down every word.

And you wanted to go on about how in your mind this is a

law of war detent ion facility .

A.

Go ahead.

Well, there's d ifferences in the way that we do things

21

here , obviously, by the fact that it is law of war detent i on,

22

following things under Article III, Geneva Convention, versus any

14
)' /0 ..... e . . Pt.... /OUt...:. ... r. .... !TL..li a .. lS,' /

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

,' ;'OPl?HIH LJTJ!U OTll8. IH! 8141!!1!;' ,'

,r,< "e,r.:,01,:,·

1

prison .

Such things as solitary confinement,

thi ngs of that natu re,

2

we don•t do .

3

Q.

All right.

4

A.

The aspec t of do I thin k that there is any viol ation of

So those things come into play.

No, because my respons ibil ity is to ensure that I have the

S

tha t ?

6

guard force, the staff to provide the proper care, custody and

7

treatment of the detai nees.

8

there, responsibl e, look ing at t he medi cal components of all the

9

detainees , as well as the psychiatric care of the detainees .

10

I have my medical personnel which are

I am advised only in the cursory aspect s o f things that

11

r equire me to make a decision or soili\ething in suppor t of t h eir

12

medical care or psychiatric care that would invol ve somet h ing e l se,

13

for a move or something of that nature.

14

get i nvolved with that piece .

15

psychiatric, so I don't try to insinua t e that I am or get i nto that.

16

Q.

Otherwise, I 'm not trying to

I' m not the expert in medical or

Well, and that raises an interesting question.

But my

17

question, sir, is this :

18

Camp VII have been he r ,e al re ad!y close to ten years without standing

19

t rial.

20
21

22

A.

You're aware that many of th€ people in

Are you aware o f that?

I'm aware of when, for the most part, people came h.ere to

the camp , yes.

Q.

Okay.

And so using Mr . al Nashi ri as an example , you're

15
1r d1Sv:i. 11
I I 6.f I 161212, 6242151112,.Xi .l!,, 6112225 I

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

, '. '.SJ? (ST'. '.

1

aware that he h as been in Guantanamo for t en years and, of cours e,

2

his tr i a.l

3

that?

i s years away from commencing .

4

A.

General ly.

5

Q.

Sure.

6

Are you general ly a ware of

I ' m not sure of the date h e arrived, b ut ----

We ll , if I s u ggested to you t hat i t was in Sept e mber

of 2006, would you have any reason t o doubt that?

7

A.

I wou ld not have any r eason to d oubt tha t .

8

Q.

Now - - a nd whil e I unde rstand you want to ca ll it a law of

9
10

war detention facility , could we a l so agree tha t in his context i t is
a long-term pretri al detention facil i ty?

11

A.

In his cont ext?

12

Q.

Yeah .

13

A.

I 'm not going to speculate on his context.

14

Q.

Well ,

15

A.

I know wha t he is charged with, yes.

16

Q.

Okay.

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

And you know he 's been awaiting trial since 201 1.

19

A.

And I al~o know he's also held u nder the law of war

20

21
22

He can ----

you know h e's charged wi t h capita l murder , <lon't you?

And you know he 's awaiting trial , right?
He 's held ----

detent ion as the basis for that .
Q.

Okay.

And so in your mind that 's not long-term pretrial

d e tention?

16
/,69EFIGIP_I /lHJPJJTHEDJTIQ_D_TEP / I

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

,E; t _____ _ __ ~ .. - , .., .. ...................... ~ ......... ~ -":l .... """-"'

)} dJ SCI ))

1

TC [MR . MI LLER ] :

Your Hono r , I ' m going to ob j ect to r e l evance .

2

Real l y , we're s uppos ed to hear a bo u t standard protocols and

3

procedures .

4

Wel l , I underst and, but par t of it is

LDC [MR. KAMMEN J :

5

invo lves Nash i r i and whe t her h i s judgment is arbit r ary and capricious

6

with respe ct t o Nash ir i.

7

MJ [Col S PATH ]:

Well, i t does .

But he ' s already s a id h e

8

doesn ' t h a ve any i dea how your client feels about t his.

9

d oesn't mat ter, frankly , for him ,

10

L DC

( MR . KAMMEN J :

It doesn ' t .

Objecti on su sta ined.

Ok.ay .

11

12
13

A.

And i t

I ' m fami l iar wi t h the t e rm, yes .

14
15
16
17

18

19
20

21
22
17

//T8/80I;'/
5; ct I ldh!LJ CttiibilibttuCillbbJ 11J

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCILASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

;f;fSE E !CIHE;'Ulllibllibtti ±di±Lb) 5

;'/TS;'OCI;'/

A.

I am not.

4

A.

No , I ' m no t.

5

Q.

Okay .

1

2
3

Now, I think you told us yesterday, but I want t o

6

confi rm, you are not fami liar with the references about -- concerning

7

Mr. a l Nashiri in the SSCI tortu r e r epor t ?

l3

A.

I am not .

9

Q.

Okay.

And I presume you have not read a book recently

10

publ ished by Mr. James Mitchel l called Enhanced Interrogat i on

11

Techniques tha t

12

b l ack site

refers to , in part , Mr . al Nashiri ' s t ime in the CI A

13

A.

I have no t.

14

Q.

Okay.

15

Have yo u read any articles about Mr . al Nashiri's

time in the CIA black sites ?

16

A.

I have not .

17

Q.

Now, you ind ic ated yesterday that you were general ly

18

familiar with t he term " PTSD " ?

19

A.

I 'm qui te familiar with the term ~PTSD."

20

Q.

Okay.

21

22

So you are fami liar wi t h some of the potential

causes of PTSD?

A.

Yes ,

I am .
18
1
))13)36-')) f

UNClASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCILASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

j;
I I

- &Sb&LJ 3£!2262!2££(&262£123)
I

1

2

Q.

Okay .

And are you familiar wit h the f act that torture,

bei ng sub j ected to torture, can cau se PTSD?

3

'A.

I am aware of that, yes.

4

Q.

Okay.

5

J

;f;'.ii;'.i H;f;I

And are you fami l i ar with some of t h e sympt oms -- or

of the symptoms generally of PTSD?

6

A.

I 'm aware of a wide range of symptoms of PTSD .

7

Q.

Sure .

8

And among those wide range of symptoms, ex.cuse me,

are avoidance behavi or, right?

9

A.

Yes .

10

Q.

FlashQ9-CKS?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

Somatic comp l ain.ts, somatic i ssues?

13

A.

Yes .

14

Q.

Okay .

15

A..

Aware of everything f rom -- ranging from depr,e ssion; to

What other symptoms are you aware of?

16

inability to s l eep; t o overall anxiety; to excessive s l eep ; to

17

phys i ca l aspects in t erms of actual convulsions and stuff based upon

18

severity of diff erent aspects of PTSD; multiple di fferent types of

19

depression aspects of it; bipolar disorders.

20

that can occur from PTSD.

21

events.

22

Q.

Okay .

There ' s multiple things

Certainly depends upon individua l s and the

And are you awa re that i n 2000 -- I believe in 201 2
19

//±3/2'eI//
/ ;<e FFI @L\l5/SUAMlfflt'lliiT I@11tlf~el ;' /

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

;';'OPE I CI. IL/ ULILG ~ 1!!5261 I Si ii 230 ;t ;t
I I J.,J/'-.:n..... .a..tr

1

three mi litary doc t ors advised this commission that Mr . al Nashi ri

2

suffer s from complex PTSD and depression?

3

A.

I am not .

4

Q.

Okay.

5

Are you familiar with the fact that Dr . -- are you

familiar with a woman by the name of Dr. Sondra Crosby?

6

A.

I am not.

7

Q.

Okay .

8
9

10

And if I r epresent to you that she testified before

this commission, I believe in 2013 or 201 4, tha t i t's with i n ---Judge , I'm going to object .

TC [MR . MI LLER]:

know, then to suggest , it' s just a suggestion to him.

11

LDC (MR. KAMMEN) :

12

Q.

13

this conunission?
A.

I am not.

15

Q.

Okay.

17

18
19

Let me withdraw the question.

Are you aware of any diagnosis she may have provided to

14

16

If he doesn't

Do yo u know

and I'd be a lit t le surprised if you

do -- what the proper course of treatment of PTSD is?

A.

I mean , I know there 's multiple courses , but I have not

prescribed it nor -- you know , so I could not defini t i vely tell you.
Q.

Well , would i t be within your knowledge that part of the

20

proper course of treatment for

21

provider to take a detailed trauma history of the indi vidua l?

22

A.

Yes .

PTSD

would be for t:he treatment

I mean, I could assume that.

20
;'.;'.H;'.i U;f;f

;' ;' 0 fFHHMs/Ulil&UTl1121HTI iilJtTitEl ;6;6

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

I , CL£ !C!AL) v fdAG I UEN .t. ... '--'AIEB) I

1
2

Q.

Okay.

And do you know wheth er or not , since Mr . a l Nashiri

came t o Guantanamo Bay, whether that has ever been done?

3

A.

I do no t know .

4

Q.

Are you fami l iar with the potential consequences to an

S

individual who suffers f r om complex PTSD when that PTSD is not

6

treated?

7

A.

It can be a wide-ranging thi ng, everything from

8

self-recovery of dif f erent things, as well as psychological mood to ,

9

to an extreme of , you know, suici de as well.

10

Q.

Okay.

11

A.

Very wide ranqe.

12

Q.

And so would you a.gree that

13

So i t can have a wi de range

thes e wide- r anging symptoms can

become worse - ---

14

A.

Certai nly .

15

Q.

---- wi thout treatment ?

A.

Can become wor s e o r better.

17

Q.

Now , are you fami l iar wi th t he conse quences of to rture,

18

beyond PTSD?

19

A.

20

21
22

I mean , I 'm familiar t hat, depending up o n wh at the event

was, i t could cause physical aspects.

Q.

Okay.

Al l

right.

But beyond that, no.

And as a -- somebody responsibl e for a

law of war deta i nee ' s wel l -being, woul d i t be helpful or necessary

21

;q MM&ti fi£iiii 114#1 g;q

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/ /Ii PP I 8 V1.L;f WHf:UqlJ1iH'f I8i'.tlfi18;'/
//:PS;'SCI/;'

1

for you to know if he was tortured pr i or to getting here and what

2

tortu re he was subjected to?

A.

3

I do not bel i eve so .

I think the important thing is that I

4

know what his condit i on is now i n terms of general terms and tha t I

5

have t he medical care and psychiatric care responsible to be able to

6

help h im if required .

Q.

7

Al l right .

So it woul d be impor tant for you to know his

e

condi tion now, but you ' re unaware of a ny diagnoses that

9

Mr . a l Nashi r i has r eceived.

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

Okay.

Is that your testimony?

And would it be important to you , as a s upervisor

12

running a law of war detention fac i lity, to put in place protections

13

against -- to help a per son who suffers from PTSD?

14

A.

Can you define what you mean by "pr otections"?

15

Q.

Well , you ' re aware that certain things ean trigger sequ e lae

16

of PTS D, such as flashbacks , hypervigilance, act i ng outJ in response

17

to the t riggers?

1e

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

Okay .

Would i t be helpfu l to know if any of your -- t he

20

way you're running you r facility accidenta ll y triggers a detainee's

21

PTSD?

22

A.

Well, th ere would be no way to , f i rst off, identify if
22
1 fTR (??I '. '.
;' ;f@f0IGIP L/PIZP fZTflfiilTIGPTER (;6

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCILASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

:r:rs PP rr

•:r

lit T l;f;I

Tl

,:, 1e;teer ;t;r

1

anything has triggered it , unless there was -- something brought

2

about that indication.

3

somebody has triggered a flashback.

4

the, literally the care and cus tody of the de t ainees and the

5

prompt ----

6

Q.

Sure.

I 've not been indicated anything that
I

know my focus i s based upon

But wouldn't it be helpful to know what a person was

7

subjected to before, so you coul d do your bes t to avoi d things that

8

might tr i gger hi s behavior?

9

A.

I know definitively we're not doing anything remotely

10

re l ated to anyt hing that would be an interrogation technique , or

11

anything else that would, in my mind, that would trigger

12
13

Q.

Well , are you familiar with t he cells in which

Mr. a l Nashiri was kept while h e was in black sites?

A.

I am not .

17

A.

I'm only fami l iar wi th the cell t ha t he's in now.

18

Q.

Al l right .

14

15
16

19

And do you have any idea whether it's the same

ce ll he's i n now or something differen t ?

20

A.

I do not .

21

MJ [Col SPATH]:

22

LDC

Mr. Kammen?

[ MR .• KAMMEN) :

Yes .

23

;'.;'. I

I IF I;'.

TR 7 2 '. '.

UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

, I Gt L f .._...l. AL) 61-.Ab .L hEi" .L ..LCAi t.;.t b}
;f;i I ;f I H;f;i

1

MJ [ Col SPATH ) :

2·

picking on the governmen t

3

recognize , I r ecogniz e perception in t he world .

4

5
6

1

The out s i de obser vers probabl y fe el l i ke I was

LDC [MR. KAMMEN] :

this week .

I d on' t

think I was, but I

Nobody t hinks you were pic king on t he

government this week .
MJ [Col SPATH) :

Oh , I doubt that high ly .

Here ' s my quest i on.

7

This has to do with standard of care s t uff agai n, and we 've litigated

8

standard of care , 5ome r ul i ngs issued before I got on board and some

9

a fte;r; .

10
11

'l'his is not helpful to the one i ssue at hand, whether he
should be housed here or back there during----

12

LDC [MR . KAMMEN) :

13

MJ [ Col SPATH ] :

14

LDC [MR. KAMMEN) :

15

MJ [ Col SPATH]:

16

Well
That's all ---I understand.
Okay .

That ' s al l I want to hear about fo r the

purpose of t his t estimony .

17

LDC [MR . KAMMEN] :

18

MJ [Col SPATH ] :

19

LDC [MR. KAMMEN );

20

MJ [ Col SPATH) :

Wel l
Tha t's why I allowed the wi t ness to c o me.

Sure .
I gave you the wi tness.

But that ' s what i t ' s

21

got to be focused on.

I ' m n o t say i ng there aren ' t opportun i ties to

22

ask h i m the questions f or other purposes and other motions that might
24
f

1 ._. .._"'

f - ""'" £J.J/ "' .........-~ . . ]....., •.. • --··- 2- r

1

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

//@FF! HAJs/WllltiiifIHi!HifI BAif!l8;';'.

/913/SCIII

1

be filed .
What I ' m talking about though - - you ' ve already indicated

2

.3 .

through a p ro ffe r the cel l here is less friendly, less kind, smal l er ,

4

doesn ' t hav e t he facilities , does n ' t have the creature comforts, a n d

5

your c l ient's happy to take that on.

6

assume we ' 11 hear t ha t

7

And I appreci ate t hat .

And I

from your client• s testimony .

I need to u nde r stand why he's t ransported here a nd why he ' s

8

transported back and wh y that ' s in the best i nterest of the

9

confi neme nt fa ci l i t y or de tainee f acility or l aw o f war fac ili t y .
LDC (MR . KAMME N):

10
11

this .

Wel l , I appreciate, but t h e r e's two pie ces to

Obviously we ' d like to persu ade you to grant t h e mo tion .

12

MJ [Col SPATH):

13

LDC (MR. KAMMEN ) :

14
15

I unders t and .

But i f we fa i l in that, we 'd like to preser ve

a record for appellate revi ew.

MJ [Col SPATH):

But t his i$ not the v'=!h icle to p r e$erve that

16

record.

17

at t he ELC .

18

all I want to hear about .

1 '9

Th is is not the vehicle.

This motion i s focused on housing

That's what this 806 session was granted for, and that's

LDC [MR , KAMMENJ ;

Well, wi th respect, if his judgment is not

20

based upon any knowl e dge of the i n ma t e, and is simply based on a

21

blanke t position with respect to an indivi dual inmate in an

22

individual situation, t he judgment may be arbi trary and capricio u s.

I

II

25
4¥i S f'-S-e-¥/ I
/ornrar, I ([])]] EJTJJF?ZTICETEP
...._..."' "' .._ ,,_,,.._. _.

,,

_,.,,. ..... ..., •

.... . -.. , . -

-• •• --~

( J(

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

,r,caanrcr: I

, UZ!IT)Z??II0!3TTAPTRP,','

#IS;f8H;f;'.

And so his knowledge about the inmate and hi s knowl ·e dge

1

2

about the inmate ' s situati on is important to b ear upon the

3

arbi trari ness of his position .

4

MJ [Col SPATH]:

Maybe, marg inally, except that he' s already

5

given h is expl anation as t o why hous ing t he inmat e here isn't

6

f easible for him .

7

anything like that .

9

testimony.

10
11

I t has not hing t o do wi th Mr . al Nashiri' s past or

LDC (MR .. KAMMENJ :
do we ----

12

MJ [Col SPATH] :

13

LDC [MR. KAMMEN ] :

14
15

You can chal l e nge that , of course .

18
19
20

21
22

But - - - -

And woul dn' t some knowl edge of who the

indi v idual inma t e is and what his circumstances are bear upon that?
MJ [Col SPATH] :

I don ' t believe so .

LDC [MR. KAMMEN) :
17

And so are we allowed to challenge that , or

MJ [Col SPATH ]:

Not for th is issue .

Okay .

And, f rankly, he 's al r eady ind i cated he really

has no knowledge of Mr. al Nashi ri .
LDC

[ MR . .KAi."1MEN]:

Well ,

a nd I

t hink that goes to th e

arbitrari ness of his d ecision .
MJ (Co l SPATH] :

And so that ' s -- you have that in argumen t , but

it's al ready been established .

He 's made clear he didn't revi ew his

26
) ) 13) SCI) 9
, #3£ I !SIBL;'G24£tUiilBEII Uf!TH;f;'.

UNCILASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCILASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

1

past, he doesn't know his past ,

2

LDC [MR . KAMMEN) :

3

MJ

4

saying that th~t may not become relevant.
LDC (MR . KAMMEN]:

Yeah , I know.

MJ [ Col SPATH] :

again ,

You st i l l have----

Anot her time wh en we're

No t in due course.

That, f r ankly , i s as

dismissive as I f oun<l General Martins to be .

11

LDC [MR . KAMMEN ) :

12

MJ

[ Col SPATH) :

I apolog:ze .

I apologize.

I ' m dea ling wi th the mot ion at h and and t he 505

13

notice that was h a.nded t o me .

14

your mitigation c ase is go i n g to be quit e wide reaching.

15

capital case.

16
17
18

I' m not

= understand.

looking for Mr . In Due Course .

9

10

And then I just -- I have the 505 notice as

I ' m j ust trying t o keep this one f ocused

7
8

right .

wel l about the areas we were goi ng to ta lk about.

5

6

{Col SPATH ]:

Al l

and he's met him once .

I ' ve indi cated t o you that I think
I t's a

Your mitigation case wil l be wide reach ing.

Th i s may wel l be rel evant mi ti gati on evidence down t he

r oad .

I t i s not r e l e vant to what we're dealing wi th righ t now.

LDC [MR. KAMMEN] :

Fi ne .

Well, with -- my next t opic would be,

19

because he ta lked about there ' s ~ack o f showe.x:s here.

20

ask him whet her he's famil iar with Mr . al Nashiri's unwi l lingness to

21

take showe r s

22

MJ [Col S PATH):

You may .

27
))13)3 ..... .L)/
f

I...,, ,..

1>.

.... _

.... ,.. _ . _ ,

v .... . . . ..., .... ,. _ .., • ...,

._....__ ... _

_. ,,

1

UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

I 'd like t o

 UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

;t ;terr Ii!!Ifi!S/tllh~l!Hll!th !Ci!Il!'.15//
,I

LDC (MR. KAMMEN) :

1
2

,

I((

Thank you.

Questions by the Learned Defense Counsel. [MR. RAMMENJ:

Q.

3

4

.. _ , (COT
___
( ( (SO

Are you familiar wi th any o f the t hings in any of the

records dea ling with Mr. al Nashi ri's behavior in the s h owers?

5

A.

No t in any de tai l, no, I 'm not.

6

Q.

Okay.

Are you familiar with the fact t h at he doesn ' t like

7

t o t ake showers and only likes to be dripped because shower s remind

8

him of when he was water boarded by the United States?

9

10

A.

I 'm not aware of that part .

I know that he does no t l ike

to t ake showe r s ,

11

Q.

Okay .

12

A.

That ' s a b out the extent o f it .

13

Q.

All right .

14

A.

Li ke I

said, I get the advice from my medical personnel .

15

And I also will say it ' s not arb :. trary i n terms of wh at l do make my

16

decision .

17

tha t my medi cal doctor has to l d ne that two weeks ago when he talked

18

to al Nashiri he sai d he wanted to s t ay back at Camp VII as well,

19

based upon t he same things that r have test ified.
Q.

20

I know the basis of what hi s -- the thing is I also --

All right.

Now, with the court's permission ,

I assume you

21

have never dea l t with somebody who is standing tria l i n a capital

22

case?

28
;'.;f?T;'.i?T:f;'.

/ /Ci 2 ±Cfl!JS;'UEIMHIIBttl I!'!fiTISB;t;'

UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCILASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

//OPPIGI?~:/eJ!J},.{J'f!JB?iJ'f I G.Pl:l?EB/ ;'
,· ,r,0 ;10

er:·,·

1

A.

Not directly, no.

2

Q.

Okay.

3

You' re not fami l iar with the str esses that they

might be under?

4

A.

Not direct l y , no.

5

Q.

Okay .

And I assume you're only noddi n gly fami liar wi th the

6

stresses of s t anding trial i n a foreign country where you don 't speak

7

the language?

8

A.

I mean, yes.

9

Q.

Generally?

10

A.

Genera ll y.

11

Q.

Okay.

12
13
14

15

I mean ----

Or i n a foreign -- standing t ria l in a fore ign

country where that country has previously abused you?

A.

Once again , I ' d be making an assumption or assertion on

that one and - - --

Q.

Now, l et's turn t o the facilities her e at t hi s location,

16

the ELC.

Behind the ELC there are , as I recall ,

17

cells ; is that correc t ?

18

A.

Yes .

19

Q.

Each of those cells are really identical , t~ue?

20

A.

;£es,

21
22
29

//TB /B@I;';'

UNClASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

I I Ct I . , . CIA....,/ bu Pi0 . 11~,4££€Al&S) ,
/JT5/5Ct//

A.

Th at is my und erstanding, yes .

12

Q.

You ' ve nev e r seen t h e cells b e h ind the ELC?

13

A.

I've not wal ked through t h e m independent l y, no .

14

Q.

Okay .

15

A.

I have not .

16

Q.

Each o f the cells has a bed, correct?

17

A.

I' m a wa re of tha t, yes .

18

Q.

Each of the cel l s has a commode and running water , true?

19

A,

l'es .

1
2

3

4

5
6
7
8
9

10
11

And you 've never wal ked into them?

20

21
22

30
; /!E!l/2kIH
;' ;'. 0 PP! 8I?zL;'.UllAUillfSltlTU1 i ilii;C;C

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNClASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

I I Ct I it±ALI CfQAOiliEL41 ICAIED, I

;'/!3/3'--'I//

1
2

3
4

5
6

7
8

9

10
11

12
13
14
15

16
17

18
19

20
21
22

31
//±.§/.§CI//
, ) 3£ L 181112) 3£4liUI12EitLC.LL3J1/

UNClASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

//OE L !2!!2±E;ro2U1tblilbl411621126) I

1

Q ..

Okay .

2

A.

I ' ll say I' m no t con cerned a b o ut h im ~ s cap ing h ere e i ther .

3

Q.

Okay .

4

A.

That ' s not what I am · conce rned about.

5

Q.

Okay .

Now-- --

So escape i s n ot an issu e?

I t hink you s a id that living cond iti ons -- we're

6

t a lking about liv ing condi t ions, ope n air , c ommunity , me di cal

7

f acil i ties , library were , in your mind, the i ssue ?

8

A.

That ' s par t o f the i ssue , yes .

9

Q.

Okay .

10
11

We l l , we' l l come t o t he o ther .

All righ t.

I f the inmate -- the i nmate i s not r equired t o go t o the
doc t or i n Ca mp VI I , i s he?

12

A.

They ' r e n ot r e qui red , no.

13

Q.

Okay.

15

A.

They're n ot r equ ired , no.

16

Q.

The in.mate ' s n o t requi r ed t o part i c i pate i n community

14

17

20

r equired to go t o the library, is

he ?

activiti es or commu nal p rayer , a re t hey?

Nope , not required to,

18

19

Th e inmate is not

Q.

Th e i nmate i s no t r e q uired to a va i l t hemselves o f the

open - a ir rec r e a ti o n , true?

21

A.

Wel l , t hey c a n close their door, if they don ' t , bu t y es .

22

Q.

Oka y .

Those are i nd i v i dual choi ces a n i nmate can make

32
))13)36£ , )
;r;:M rn !Lra;tU.LtLHIMHfI if l!Hi;'.;f

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

//OH 16 -IIL,SOLIMHBbi4££Clllbb} /
//TO/SOI//

1

while at Camp VI I, correct?

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

Now, i f an inmate is at court during the day and physica l ly

4

si tt i ng i n court, obvious ly he's not going to the doctor,

true?

5

A.

Unl ess he needed care, yes .

6

Q.

Okay.

7

A.

Right .

8

Q.

Not doing communal prayer, not doi ng any of t hose other

9

He ' s not going to the library , right?

thi ngs while he is at court, true?

10

A-

Correct .

11

Q.

I don ' t know, but i n the absence of emerqencies

and I

12

understand that there's medical care for emergencies , but in the

13

absence of emergencies , i s the doctor at Camp VII a fter

14

A.

There i s at minimum a corps~an and a nur se, so.

15

Q.

All r i ght .

16

A.

Depending upon the $ituation, generally no.

17

Q.

Okay.

18

A.

They're always on call.

19

Q.

Okay.

20
21
22

Bu t is a doctor at Camp VII after

Is t here a point in the evening when t he library

closes at Camp VII?

A.

The delivery - - wel l , deli very of mat erials are usuall y

done during per i ods of time, and they are able to keep the ma terials

33
I I lv1) SCI)

,r,• . . . ~-~

I

-··- ,-····--··-··--ST.TEP'.'.

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLI C RELEASE

J

J

1

J

throughout the du ration , until they collect the next time .
Q.

2

3

22216£1!£) Si21232!i2ill£611!23)

All right.

So they don't go to the library ; the books are

brought to them?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

Okay .

And I assume - - and I don ' t mean to be sarcastic - -

6

that the books are eas i ly t ranspor table and a book could be brought

7

here?

"'

,,

e
9

10

A.

Well, they're given a wide selection that they can choose

from, along with everything else , so an enti re cart of things are
taken out there.
Q.

11

Sur e.

Okay .

But, you know, do you want Tom Sawyer?

12

guy says yes.

13

A.

If it was that simple, yes.

14

Q.

Okay .

15

t ime, true?

16

A.

The

You can bring Tom Sawyer here , right?

Now, t he corrununity prayers only h appen at prayer

Wel l , they also do it during different time s of rec when

17

they go out, because they all go out to an open rec, estab l ished, and

16

they can go out t here and do that as wel l .

Q.

19
20

When they go out to the open rec,

that rec

time, what time does that end?

21
22

All right .

A.

out.

It depends upon the durat ion of t ime when they ' re going

There's d ifferen t itera tions for rec t hat they go to .

34

J

;f;f H / Ii or ;S ,:
(O T""IS TSID I /IJ)JDIJTPEDZTTGP TFP / 6

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/ ;'OFFI6Ii\l5/e!Hi'te1Tl.IBHTI@i9t'PB1'//
//IS/SCI//

1

Q.

Well, o kay .

2

A.

Generally speaking,

.3
4

But - --i t's about

rom the time that

t hey go .

Q.

Okay.

But let me t r y and make my quest ion more specific.

5

If an inmate says

6

outdoor rec , is he a l lowed to do tha t ?

I want to go to open r ec, to

7

A.

No .

8

Q.

And what are Mr. al Nashi ri • s designated times for rec?

9

A.

I wou l d have to go and l ook.

10

Q.

Okay .

11

A.

Not at this t ime, no .

12

Q.

Okay.

13

It would be d uring des ignated times.

All right .

Now, you ' re the h ead of all of J TF; is

t hat corr ect?

14

A.

No.

15

Q.

Okay .

16

A.

I 'm t he commander of the Joi nt Detention Group .

17

Q.

Okay .

18

You -- --

And the Joint De t e nti on Group r uns al l of the l aw of

war d etention faci l iti es here at Guantanamo , cor r ect?

l '9

A.

Yes .

20

Q.

And there a r e how many law of war deten tion facil i ties

21

st il l open?

22

A.

35
;'/Sfi@J;'8@I;'/
I

I I(OSFTCTT
I (~BZDFZTJJElZTIGPTEP
. _ ... •_,_ _ _,_, ~.,,,_,,,..,,..,.
._ .._...., ...... ,..._.,., ... _....,, .... ,..,,....,_, ,(, ' I

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

//GFPICI?~L/Ul!A.UTI"EU1 ICA.TS v //
/ /T3/5C 1 / ;•

1

Q.

2

3

And how many of those f acil itie s house law of war --

we ll , strike t hat .

4
5

Okay .

How ma n y law of war detainees p resently are at Guant a na mo
Ba y?

6

A.

There ' s 59 right now.

7

Q.

And 14 of them , I bel i eve , are kept at Camp VII; is that

8

correct?

9

A.

Correct .

10

Q.

And whe re are the other 45 kept?

11

A.

12

Q.

13
14

Al l

right .

And what is your tot al troop componen t

available to you to manage these 59 law of war de tai nees?
A.

We ll , I h ave to b rea k i t down in a -- because i t ' s not a l l

15

the s ame .

I have t he security requ irement s as wel l .

16

component o f

17

Q.

Let ' s just work wi th me here.

18

A.

All right.

19

Q.

What's the t ot al number?

20

A.

21

Q.

22

A.

That 's another

it .

We'l l get the re.

36
//11'/SeI//

;r;roz 2 i&iliUUllfllH[IB!IIIOP±HH;f;1

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

,t / ~f 2 ICIJ&,'Cftlfl'L ,12,51 !Clti~ IS//
;'/±8;'l9CI;';t

1
2

Q.

Okay .

how many of t h em a r e

young men - - or strike that .

3

How many of them a r e ava ilable t o guar d the 59 inma te s ?

4
5
6
7

8

9

A.

Yes , and they also support corrunissions here as we l l.

10

Q.

I 'm sorry?

11

A.

They also support the corruniss i ons here .

12

Q.

And so how man y of the p eopl e here , o n a day when we ' re i n

37

06£ i I@fliLJ

ULIMHUl!!ILII ItMH!IB;i;'

UNClASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

' I 5 6£ tit ±ALI Oi&Ab i IIEtul ±CAI EB) I
II IS/SCI!/

1

2
3

4
5
6
7
8
9
10

11

12
13

14

15

16
17

18

19
20

21
22

38
IC
f
11 .1..-;;:;,r-.::.,v.1.1

&}

r

9G~Ef 16 £A-Bf&l-QA%4 h&N1¥@A¥&&74

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

,1 ,'@L P:H'!!Ift!S/@m.J@L L !I.L I@i'i ~ ~ B, ' ,f
11 1S1SCI)J

1
2

3

4
5
6
7
8

9

10
11

12
13

14
15

16
17

19
2()

21
22

II

39
SCI)'

L)

//SFFI CIA.L/Ut::l. UTile!lJTIGP. .TEB//

UNClASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

;' ;'SFF'ICii\~/!mf,!:!Tl~e!Wf iei"tT EJB/

,c

//7£:9/eteI//

1

A.

2

The threat is also not just towards him.

3

threat as we l l

4

responsibility to p rotect h i m just as we would for anyth i ng else .

5
6

Q.
here?

for anyth i ng to this environment .

It ' s the e xterna l

Okay.

We have t he

The ex ter nal threat is the lawyers who are coming

I mean, wh at's the external threat?

7

A.

The extern al threat coul d be anything .

8

Q,

Okay.

9

A.

I have a respons ibili ty to ensure that we main tain the

10

abso l u t e security for ever y thing a nd the safety of our de t ainee and

11

our g uard force .

12

Q.

Absolute1y.

13

A.

We understand very clearl y wha t po t ential and people think

14

about the detainees that we have here.

15
16

17
18
19
20

21
22

95

40

£§) §219)
/ /OPE"! CIIIL/UllHl9IHl9llT I t'!Y!UIB;';t

UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/ ;'6Ff1I5! Ab/~t0ft01fHBN'fI C:iR;'ffl1'//

//13/SCI//

1

Q.

So the answer to my q uestion is yes?

2

A.

Yes .

3
4

s
6
7

8

9

10
11

12
13
14
15

16
17

18
19

20
21
22

41
/;' T 8 ;f 8 l!H ;f;f

UNCILASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

))OEEICIAL)ONAOIHENl!CAIEB))
;';118;'.e!BI;';'

1
2

3

4
5
6

7
8

9

10
11

12
13
14

15
16
17

18
19
20

21

22
42
// J. !'J/~CI//

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

1
,

I OJ.: f .1. C± n.L) OfvA0 .1. IIEICff vA J. Eb} ,

;'/Tlil ;600I;f;f

1

LDC [MR . KAMMENJ :

2

MJ [ Col SPATH] :

3

4
5

LDC (MR . KAMMEN]:

7

LDC [MR . KAMMENJ:

[ Col SPATH) :

But I do need th e reco r d

Si x to n i ne peop l e .

It ' s clear.

---- because it does seem arbitrary and

capri cious .
MJ (Col SPATH) :

10

LDC [MR . KAMMEN) :

11

MJ

12

LDC [MR . KAMMENJ:

13

No, I under sta nd.

to re fl ect - ---

MJ

9

I underst and that when we 're not h ere i n

sessi o n it 's a d ifferent -- --

6

8

Thank you .

[ Col SPATH) :

I und ers tand .

Tha t wil l g o to your arg ument .

Okay.

Si x to nine people when we ' re not here .
Right.

Questions by the Learned Defense Counsei [MR. KAMMEN]:

14

Q.

Now

15

A.

Now j ust to clari fy , that ' s my folks.

16

The r e's ot her

commissions fo l ks a n d everyth i n g h ere as we l l too , so.

17

Q.

Well - -- -

18

A.

And I don ' t know t he ir n umbe rs .

19
20
21
22

43
I

((TS(SST((
I

~

o...J/ ._,.._....;., I

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED// FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

;' /8121?HHP L;6UlTAU'.ill8UTHlt1 Tl!H!l;(/

,f.f?S,i@GI,f,1

1
2
j

4
5

6
7
8

9

10
11

12

13
14
15

16
17
18

19
20
21
22

A.

Yes , i t does .

44
;'/?O/SS I ;'/
'. fR SP 7 TI fF 77 FTIF7577?7777 '. '.

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

f

I I...,...,.._
IOPPTOTP
t ,..,
(;p;;
SJTJtS??TICPTSS
.... _.._ .. .. ..,
,. • .., ,..._.-••
- •~•
- · · - - - , ( ,- I

/)13}3Ci)/

Q.

1

2

Okay .

Because he ' s so significant t h at some unknown force

is going to come b re ak him out ?

A.

3

Let me just put it this way.

If we, i f we - - imagine

4

you ' re in New York City doing t hi s .

5

have there as well if the defend ant is there?

6

because there's risks a l so to t he de fe ndant, because there ' s peop le

7

t hat want to take ha rm to the defendants.
Q.

8

9

Right.

How much security would they

I t ·, s the same t h i ng ,

And have you spoken with a nybody in New York City

who runs the , the peop le who r un the Metropol itan Correction Center

10

in New York City,

11

compa red to y o urs?

to see what their guard staffing levels a re

12

A.

No.

13

Q.

Would it s urpr ise you to learn tha t they work o:n a much,

14

much , much, much smaller- - -Judge , we're not here real ly

15

TC [MR. MI LLER) :

16

MJ [Col SPATH]:

17

TC (MR . MILLER) :

18

MJ [Co l SPATH):

1 :9

LDC [MR. KAMMEN] :

20

Q.

----

Agreed .

----

to surprise h i m.

Agreed .

He doesn't know .

He already said it .

Okay.

Now - - and are you gen erally aware that people alleged to

21

be terrorists are held in var i ous detention fac i lities i n New York

22

City ,

in Ch icago , and other ma jor metropol i t an areas?

45
JJ±SJSCIJJ
f I bi L ICIALJ GIJAG!hbhiitAIEBJ I

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNClASSIFIED//FOR PUBLI C RELEASE

/

/ VJ:L' ..LVJ..n..LI/ U.l'ilr\V J. l l J.:.t l.... i .J.. \,.;C'l J.l:.I U/ /

// I S/SCI//

1

A.

I'm aware t hat people -- the re ' s peopl e that have been

2

convict ed of diffe rent things as well, but I don ' t

3

has not been convicted.

know of any that

4

Q.

Wel l , you ' re no t awar e , though , where peop l e----

5

A.

I' m s ure there ' s people.

6

I'm not tracki ng e verything

around ther e in t h,e U. S . judicial system .

7

8
9

10
11

12
13
14

15

17

19

20
21
22

A.

Yes .
46
,f,'J0/80!,I;'
;E;f 8Pl?Hil L/UlliD IZTIIiiUTIGi!l Tliis':'

UNClASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

I I 62 L . Cfiiil/ bldiibliiblCIICJIICJ) J
))13)361))

1
2
3
4

5

6
7

8

:9

10
11

12
13

14
1S

Hi
17

18

1:9
20

21
2 .2

47

/ ,ore ;'SOI;'/
//~E"P'I@!I ii!h/!!lti~@HI H!!HTie!ftT~8/ ;'

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

;'.;'.O il Pi i[f IJ L;WHF TuiTllilllTI 81 TiiB ;'.;'.

;<;11a;<ae1;</

1
2
3
4

s
6

7

8
9

10
11

12
13

14

15
16
17

18
19
20

21
22

48
//1 ~ ;<~@:[/ ;'
J J st t 161111) 6£41i611IBN±IClifLBJ

J

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

,f ,f _ p _ _ _ ..... __.,1 . . . ..1.. L.... ...... B ..1... 10.... _ .... ),1
JJ!S/561)/

1

2

3
4
5
6

7
,8

'9

10
11

12
13

14
15

16
17

18
19
20

21
22
49
I I_._ ._..._ .._. • .,. .,....._, ,

._,.._..,.._,.. _ .&. :o .a.l~, .a.- ~ -,._,-,,,.,. ... ,a...;._,, J I I I

UNClASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/ ,'€l'FFI€I.U.35/ ~ Hii's:e'q::ff8H'i'I CF:'i'88 ;';'

1

2
3

4
5
6
7
8

9

10
11

12

13

14
15
16

17

18
19
20

21

22
50
I I £3 IE 5£) I
:f ;'@EEI?IP I (IItJP EJTJJStJWT2PTER 6 6

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLI C RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

))O r El ~ IAL)ONAOiHt NIICAl~D;;
;; IS} Sd)}

1

2
3
4

5

6
7
8

9

10
11

12
13

14
15

16
17

18
19

20
21
22

51
J J ISJ 56£)

J

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCILASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

;' /Off'l"ICIAL/\~Nr10.1HE t~l .1.'-'tt J. Eb11
))13)3 ..... ±))

Q.

Yeah.

7

Q.

All right.

B

A.

That I do not know.

9

Q.

I'm sorry?

10

A.

That I do not know .

11

Q.

You don' t

12

A.

I don ' t

13

Q.

Okay.

1

2
3

4
5
6

14

15

know?

kn,ow .

We l l, are you aware that

the cel ls at other visiti ng

f aci l ities where the detainees

A.

Yes .

16

17
18
19
20

21
22

52
I '. I '. 2 '.?3

'. '.
.'.'AFSIGTP I .(fltlPPTPEllTIGPTFR I I

UNClASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/ /VC~L~L ft~ /U~MU!ft~~, i ~h ! t U / /

/)13,...,C±,,

Q.

1

Okay .

Tf a de tainee who i s here a s ks for med~cat i on,

is

2

some record ke pt t hat he was o r wasn't g i ven medication whi l e he was

3

here ?

4

A.

Yes , they' re maintai ned.

5

Q.

I'm sorr y?

6

A.

Yes , they would be maintained .

7

Q.

And what are those records called?

12

Q.

Okay.

13

A.

I have not.

14

Q.

Okay .

15

Now , have you reviewed Mr. al Nashiri ' s DIMS record?

So you 're not a ware of any p roblems or the l ack of

probl ems he's had over the las t several years ?

16

A.

17

LDC [MR. KAMMEN] :

18

No.
Okay .

Excuse me just a second, if I may .

[Pause.]

19

Q.

I s us pect I know the a nswe r , but f o r t he re~o r d, h ave yo~

20

compared your SOPs to the SOPs of any de tention faci lities where

21

peopl e facing the death penalty i n the continental United Sta t es are

22

kept ?

53
'. (R? 6SGT '. '.

( {QffICI U OJNPPTHfNTIP:TED 11

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

,t,'. ~5/56 ~ );

1

2

things f rom the m, predominantly Fort Leave nworth .
Q.

3

4

We've compa r ed t h em to other fed eral p risons a nd taken

A ..

And have you compared your SOPs to the SOPs of the

U. S . Bureau of Prisons f aci li ty a t -- ADX a t Florence , Color ado?

5

A.

Not that I'm aware of.

6

Q.

Have you compared your SOPs to the SOPs of the Spec i al

7

Management Unit at Ter re Haute, Indiana?

A.

8

9
10

All I can t ell you is we compared it to t he gene ral federal

s tandards of pri sons as we ll as For t Leavenworth.

Beyond tha t, I'm

not aware.

11

Q.

Okay .

12

A.

SOPs we re deve lope d over 14 yea ~s and----

13

Q.

Right.

14

LDC (MR . KAMMEN ]:

15

And -- -Ex cuse me just a s econd .

[Pause.]

Q.

16

If one of the detainees is spea k i n g in Arabic , do you --

17

what f acilities do y ou have when

16

tha t ?

19
20

he is

h ere at the ELC to address

Do you have Arabic s p eakers he re1
A.

We have -- I'm not sure what we h ave out here,

inte r pret ers.

I don 't manage the interpre ters out here at this site .

21

22

Q.

Okay.

You don 't know whether -- so----

54
f 6TS (§SF f 6

( {QffICIAI CUNAIJTHENTICirrfp { {

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

,,v~~ ~ ~inurvnnuin~nLi~fiL ~U//

, I 13) SCI) f

1

2

A.

Q.

4

A.

5

Q.

6

A.

7

Q.

8

A,

9

Q.

11

I know what I have

within Camp VI .

3

10

I know what I have wi thin Camp VII .

LDC [MR. KAMMEN] :

For the record , we woul d move to produce the

SOPs that he reviewed prior to his testi mony.
Under 612 I assume .

12

MJ '[Col SPATH ) :

13

LDC [MR . KAMMEN]:

Well, under 612 and also just under

14

compl e teness so th,a t, fr an kl y, we could exami ne h im conce rning those .

15

I mean , h e ' s referr ed to them.

16

He ' s talked about what they are .

I think, as a matter of fairness, recognizing -- you can

17

argue a bout whether we have a right to t hem or not , but you certainly

18

have the discretion to order the ir production .

19
20

We woulct al so ask - - l et me ask a few more quest i ons.
Q.

Have you been provided with any wri tten threat assessments

21

conducted in 2 01 ·6 concerning the threat from outside forces to the

22

ELC at Guantanamo Bay , Cuba?
55
'. '.73 '.?RI'.'.
6 {OSSIGIAI CIJNAIITHENTICATED ( (

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/ ,'QFPHHhii/'i:JNA'i:J'il?!l8HTI 9.1~1':PES/;'
;'.;Fiii;'.0H;f;I

A.

1

Specifica l ly to the ELC?

No .

I ' ve been provided

2

assessments to the overall opera tional perspective o f e verything

3

he:i:-e .

4

5
6
7

8
9

10

Q.

the date of the last t hreat assessment ?
A.

The las t threat assessment I received was l iteral ly from

the two , probably two weeks ago.

LDC (MR . KAMMEN]:

Al l r ight .

We would move to produce that

threat assessment as we l l .

MJ ( Col SPATH]:

Al l right .

You may p roceed .

Trial Counsel, any q uestions?

11

12

And were any of those created in -- when wa.s the l ast --

TC [MR . MILLER] :

Yes , Your Honor .

Thank you .

13

CROSS-EXAMINATION

14

Questions by the Tri.al Cou.nsel [MR. Ml:LLER] :

15
16
17
16

Q.

If I could, sir, starting out , what is your mission here at

the Camp VII ?
A.

My mission is to p r ovide the safe , secure care and custody

of the detainees, as well as protect my guard force .

19

Q.

So i t ' s a dual situation?

20

A.

Yes, sir .

21

Q.

Both the detainees -- you're protecting the detai nees --

22

excuse me, t he detai ne e s as well as the guard f orce?

56

6 (TS (SCI ( 6

1(OffICUH OJNBPT HfNTIGf:TEP1(

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

))13)361))

1

A.

Yes, sir .

2

Q.

And when you app l y t he various p r otocols and procedures ,

3

you indicated that tho se p rocedu res had been developed over a period

4

of some 14 -- I th.ink you said 1 4 years ; i s t h at correct ?

5

A.

Yes, s i r.

6

Q.

So you are constantl y updat ing those , reviewi n g them to

7

ensure that they ' r e the most effective se t of protocols and standard s

8

t h at you can have ?

9

10
11

12

A.

At a minimum e ve ry nine mont hs , and that ' s bare minimum,

and then a l so as required o r as c h anges c ome about.
Q.
a review?

And that was m.y next q uestion.

What p rompts you to do such

You i nd.i ca t ed t he re is a manda t ory one e v er y n i ne months ?

13

A.

Yes , sir.

14

Q.

And do you do it -- if you see something t ha t

15

changing, do you insti tu te some sort of review?

16

A.

Yes, sir, we do.

17

Q.

Al l ri ght .

18

needs

Now, you a re. familiar wi th the d efendan t ,

correct?

19

A.

l ' m familiar with him to a degree, yes , s i r.

20

Q.

And you recognize -- I g uess we a l l agree he's what we call

21

an HVD?

22

A.

Corre ct .

Yes, si r.

57
'. '.79 '.32

'. '.

6 (OSSIGIRI 6EJNAPTHSNTIGATSP { (

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCILASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

//OFFI@Ili.b / i;m,H~J!!l.BHTIG?tTBB/;'

;:;r21;1Sn; ;r

l

2

Q.

There are various other HVDs at the fac i lity; is that

correct?

3

A.

That is t rue.

4

Q.

Now, the pro t ocols/procedures that you employ there at the

5

camp, are they app l ied in the same manner to all the HVDs?

6

A.

Yes , they are .

7

Q.

Now, i s there a reason t hat you s t andard ize pr ocedures and

8

protocols?

'.9

A.

Oh, abso h ite l y .

10

Q.

Why is that, sir?

11

A.

Number one, b y stand ardi z i ng t he protocol s/pr ocedur es, we

12

p r event there from be i ng s i gnifi cant issues or incidents based upon

13

people n ot understan ding what they ' re supposed to b e doing or t aking

14

a deviat i on from what the SOP states .

15

So by -- it ens ures t he consistent car e and custody of t he

16

de t ainees.

It guarantees t he consistent funct i oning and operation of

17

the mission , of t he f aci l ities , and then the protect i on of our guard

18

f orce.

19

Q.

All ri ght .

20

A.

Yes, s i r.

21

Q.

Oo you think it's more effi c i ent in a cost s e nse?

22

A.

Yes, sir .

So standardizat i on al l ows fo r cons i stency?

58

6 (TS {SGJ ( 6

1{QfEJCI 1H <PNAPTHIWTIGATER { 1

UNClASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

//VFEICIAL/ONAOIHENIICAIED)/
I I 1;:,; .::>\.-J./ I

1

Q.

I s i t more e f fective, in the sense tha t we 'r e doing the

2

same things over and over agai n , we get b ett e r at them in providing

3

the care o f the de t ainees and the protection of b o th them and the

4

guard fo r ce?

5

A.

Absolute ly.

6
7

8
9

10
11

12
13
14

15

16
17
18
19

20
21
22
59

I I . SJ SCI)'
;t; 3£ I I SL!LJ'.Ulll iU IIIBIII Hliif 1!!11!! ;f;t

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

//6F'J.. .L'-'.LftL/f:Hl~e!fJ.b!Lvl .t.\,,.,AJ.£6//
I 1I ~S , 581/ I I

1

1111

2

A.

Yes, sir.

3

Q.

Al l

4

And everything is reviewed in i t s entirety.

right.

You were asked a number o f questions about the

ps ych iatric or medica l h i story of Mr . Nashi ri , correct?

5

A.

I was, yes, sir.

6

Q.

And you indica t ed f or t he most part you were u nfamiliar

7

with that?

8

A.

Correct .

9

Q.

But there are medical and psychi atric personnel at the

10

camp; is t hat correct?

11

A.

That is corr ect .

12

Q.

And are they responsib le for tending to those parti cular

13

issues?

14

A.

They are .

15

Q.

And you are - - I take it you have a p rofessional

16

relationship with t hose doctors

17

A.

I do .

18

Q.

-- and psychiatrists; is that cor r ect ?

19

A.

Yes .

20

Q.

And when there are issues i nvolving the medical care or t he

21

psychiatric care of a particular HVD, do they i nform you of those

22

par ticular conditions and any corrective action that needs to be
60
,'. ,'.QEEJTF .fiJlUJJ7!37lPJQFWPP.6.£

UNCLASSIFIEIO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FO R PUBLIC !RELEASE

1
2

taken?
A.

Yes, they do .

We meet at a mini mum of twice a week .

3

i f there's any othe r i nc idents or anything to have to come to my

4

a t t ent i on ,

5

Q.

And

they bring them to my a tt e ntion.
So i t is thei r responsibility , and they ' re under your

6

s upervision, I t ake it .

So t hey e nsure that t hos e t hings are ta ken

7

and they bring that to you r attention and that's how thos e ma t t ers

8

are handled, correct?

9

A.

Ri ght .

10

Q.

You 're not a doctor?

11

A.

No.

12

Q.

You ' r e not a ps ychiatrist by training?

13

A.

I am no t .

14
15

16
17

1 :8

19
20
21
22
61
J, . SJ SL ,

J

;E;f H ill H lt;'Ullffl IITIIIJtlT IOJ TDC( 6

UNCLASSIFIED//FO R PUBLI C !RELEASE

 UNCILASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

//8I?PI6 I'1t. /UlJl'tUTHStsJTICi"iTBB / ;'

, ;r . s;rscr;r;r

1
2
3

4
5
6

7
8

9

10
11

12
13

14

15
16
17

18

19
20
21
22

62

.f ,'@PPI?B I

(JBZP fJTIIElITIGiTS? ( (

UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

//0 FFICIAL/t:H31\U'Pll2f!T I €}\TBB//
,f;'_l!!!;fB0- ;';1

1
2

3

4

s
7

8

:9
10
11

12
13
14

15

17

18
19
2-0

21
22

63
; I ; £3; 36!) I ;
I

,f,f@P!?HHU ,i[J)]JJJWilRIPi?jJPSR.f.'

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

//OFEICU 1./llbJAPO::WibHllICJ.1:;i;:i,'.Q//
((TS/SCI 6 I

1
2
3
4

5
6
7
8
9

10
11

12

13
14
15
16

17
18
19
20

21

22
64

6C.,,S (SCI ( 1

1{QffICIN·CUNBPTH&WT!GBTFR{{

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCILASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/ /9PFI€ IJe\:ls/WHJl.W!flllsil!f I€.1i'.'feQ,' /
;'. /Ti ;'.Olli;'. I'.

1
2

3

4

5
6
7

8

9

10
11

12
13
14

15
16
17

16
19
20

21
22

65

( ('RS (SCI 11

1{QffICVU {PW8PTHifNTJG8I5P 11

UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

I I VI: C .J.<..., .J. MJ.,/ UL'l~U .L n.C..l\ll" .l.\..<.i-1.T .C..U / /

)) IS) SC111

1
2
3

4

5
6
7

8
9

10
11

12
13
14

15
16
17

18
19
20/

21
22

66
'. CT? '.92I '. 6
' 'OESIGIA I (PDJPIJTIIE&ITIGDTFP 11

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

If

V '.l. .i. .LV.Lr'J,..J.J/

V.&.',1.t"'l.V i.J.,U~ L.._ .L .&.\.,.,C"l. J.J.:.,V/ /

// ~SJ SC ... /

r

1
2

3

4
5
6

7
8

9

10
11

12
13
14

15
16
17

18

19

20
21
22

67
II JIOPPIGIDI

'IBJPFJTfIEtlWIGDTEP ( (

UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEAS E

/ /0.FPI 5 IA.D/t9l!J\UT11Bl9T I@ATBB / ;'
;1/IS;IOOI;';t

1
2
3

4

5
6

Q.

Now , Mr . Kammen i ndi cated to you that an inmate is not

required t o go to the doctor or to seek psychi atric care , correct?

A.

That is correct.

Q.

But aren' t you required, as a -- as head of this particular

7

8

9
10

facili t y, t o make that ava il able to them, if they want it?

A.

Yes, sir.

11

12
13
14

15
16

17
18

MJ [Col SPATH) :

19

LDC [MR. KAMMENJ :

20

I understand .
Okay .

so r object to the form of the

question.

21

TC [MR. MILLE R) :

22

MJ [Co l SPATH ] :

I'll rephrase it, Your Honor,
You may.

All righ t .
68

;i;f II ;ii II ;f I '.
.' .'@?fTQP I .fTJJ llTIIEIIWIGD TED.' (

UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEAS E

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

;' ;'9l?PI Giil'lJs/~m.,sT! [8U'f I@i&tT8B / ;'

.r ;t _8 ;18 or,r;r

1

2
3

4
5
6
7

8

Q.

I f h e was t o be housed here on a permanent o r semipermanent

basis ---Excuse me .

LDC [MR. KAMMEN):

Same objec t ion .

No t wha t we; r e

aski ng f or .

TC ( MR . MILLER] :

Well , if we're going to have a trial that

l asts months
MJ ( Col SPATH] :

Hey, everybody,

I understand .

I get t o, r ule on

the objecti ons .

9

Overruled .

10

TC [ MR . MILLER ]:

11

MJ [Co l SPATH ] :

12

Q.

You may proceed.

You may proceed .

Tha nk you.
You ' ll h ave redirect.

I f he was t o be here on a permanent or semipermanent bas i s,

13

overnight for a week or two weeks , months, would you h ave t o provi de

14

medical care ,

15

A.

Ye$, I would .

16

Q.

Psych i atric care also?

17

A.

Yes, sir .

18

Q.

19

A.

Yes,

20

Q.

And the se are all addi t ional costs, or you would have to

21

22

to have medical care her e for h i m?

sir .

cut services over at Camp VII, one or the o t her?
A.

Yes ,

s .i r.

69

( (TS (SCI ' '

{ {Qf PCTZJ:l OJNWTHENTIC&TBD { 1

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/

/

V L l: .L._ .J... ~.J..J /

V l. \tM.U J. J. U .:.1 L.,,..L .L._,rl. .1. .1.,:.t V /

/

5
))13)361))

1
2

3

4
5
6
7
8

A.

Yes, sir .

9

Q.

And i s that a standard p r a ctice for a l l th e HVDs , moving

10

them b a ck and f orth fr om court ?

11

12
13
14
15

16
17

18
19

20
21
22

A.

It i s.

70
J, -3, I&Li IJ1
6
(OSEI
SP
I
FZTJIFIJTT?PTER ff
I

cum

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNClASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

)/13)36.a.)}

1

Q.

And, aga in , that promotes cons i stency?

2

A.

Consis t ency as we l l as security .

3

TC [MR. MILLER ] :

4

I h ave nothing fur ther.

Thank you , Your

Hono r .

MJ [ Col SPATH ]:

5

All righ t .

Thanks.

Mr . Kanunen, before we do

6

your redirec t , let' s take a br i e f recess.

We' 1 1 come back and keep

7

going .

8

Thanks .

9

[The R.M . C. 806 seasion recessed at 1059, 16 December 2016.J

We' l l take a break f or ten minut es .

We 're in recess .

10

[The R,M. C, 806 :;;euion was called to order at 1105,

11

1.6 December 2016.]

12

MJ [Col SPATH ]:

13

hearing .

14

aga in present .

15

this

All the parties who were p resent be f o re we recessed a re
The witness remains on the stand .

TC [MR . MI LLER] :
17

MJ [Col SPATH ):

1:8

Mr . Mil l er .

1 '9

TC [MR. MILLER) :

2()

21
22

Commissions are cal l ed back to o r der, this 806

I know you know

Your Honor ---- -~- you are sti l l under oath .

I apologize for the i nterruption .

We would j ust not e f or the record that Mr.
has not returned and will not return for thi s portion.
MJ [Col SPATH) :

Okay.

I k now he ' s not one of the par ties, but
71
J J EJ SS!J;

UNClASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

//OFPI@Ii11L/"1LUi1-i.OTHEt!TICA1'EB //
;'/IS;'SCI/J

1

you did iden t ify h im as b e ing i n here be f ore.

2
3

Al l r i ght.

Th ank you .

Mr . Karnmen .
Questions by the Lea~ned Defense Counse1 [MR. KAMMENJ:

Q.

4

i wa nt to make sure we 're all on t he same p age.

Are you

5

aware tha t everybody who comes to Guantanamo Bay has to be a pproved

6

by the base commander be fo re they're al l owed a ccess?

7

A.

Those that come here l egal ly, yes .

8

Q.

Well of c ours e, those that come here lega lly .

9

And s o a s part of that decision to allow peopl e to come

10

here legally , are you aware that the base commander ma kes some modest

11

i nqu i ry to make s ure that they're not a threat ?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

Okay.

14

So the -- a r e you comfortab l e t h at the people who

come here legal ly are a manageable threat?

15

A.

Gen erally speaking, yes.

16

Q.

Okay.

Genera l ly spea ki ng.

So - - and you said t hat part of

17

your

your mission is to protect Nashiri , and part o f your miss.ion

18

i s t o protect the people around the case, right?

19

A,

Yes , s ir.

20

Q.

So that when we're h ere in the ELC , we are safe from t hese

21

22

people wh o would do us harm, right?
A.

Yes, si r.

72
'. '.977I?H I /UtJPIZTT:ZTIGPTSQ'.(

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/ ;'~FF!e IA'.b /!:'ltOte!JT!i~l. T 1e1tTI21' ,' ;'

;r;r _s;rsc±;t;

1

2
3

4
5

6
7

8
9

10
11

12

13

TC {MR. MILLER) :

14

MJ ! Col SPATH}:

15

LDC [ MR. Kl>.MMEN] :

16

TC [MR . MILLER ]:

18

MJ [Col SPATH] :

20

That i s argumenta tiv e .

It ' s arg umentat ive .
No ,

u nderstand , but I

I

j ust want to ma.ke t h e

point .

17

19

Objection , Your Honor.

I -- ob jecti on.
Again , I get to rule on the objections .

that al l the t i me in court .

We do

Let' s s t op talking over each other,

Objection s u stai n e d .

21
22

73

16"'8 (Sp ( {
;I ;IQ PPI HAL;'. lfllf!WIIIIIIJI lilf liii ;'.;'.

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCILASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

//OE!IC IAL /ONAOIHENIICAIED//
I I

J. .:;J /

v\.., .J. / /

1
2

3

4
5
6

7
8

9
10
11

12
13

14

15

16
17

18

19
20
21
22

74
'. ETC (SCI ('

UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/ ;'1'F'F'H.!IAL/f;Hf1\t:'J'Yll!!:N ... Ie!ATl!:15/;'
I I 15/ 5611;

15
16

LDC [MR . KAMMENJ :
that.

17

MJ [Col SPATH ):

1:8

Q.

1'9

MJ [Col SPATH ) :

20

Again, we would renew our r €quest to see

I u nderstand .

Now ---I assume a moti o n to compel wil l be filed from

the d e f ense t eam .

21

LDC (MR . KAMMEN] :

22

MJ [Co l SPATH ] :

Wel l , if i t ' s den i ed .

I mean----

Maybe the governmen t will p r ovide it to you.
75
( 'TS 'SCI ( (
5 (??RT?Tl I '.FPIFIITFl?l775SJT?? '. '.

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/ ;'61:"f'I e!A'h/tMflttJ ... IIl!:N? I eJ!i.?!!1'//

I I ISi 5815 I

1

Maybe there wi ll be some· d iscuss ion.

2

3

LDC [MR . KAMMEN ] :

Oh, I see.

Okay .

Is that h ow you want

to do

it?

4

MJ

5

LDC [MR. KAMMEN J :

6

MJ [Col SPATH ]:

[Col SPATH ) :

But for me, yes.

But ask the gove rnment-- - -

Okay, so- - --

I 'm hoping, as always -- I know tlhat the

7

standards h ere

8

public , and so at l east at one point we know wha t they look like .

9

Maybe there• s some agr eement and you ' 11 get to see them wi th out

10
11
12

at l east the SOPs at one point are out in the

figh t.
LDC [MR. KAMMEN] :

You neve r know.

But I just want t o make sure

what you want us to do is file the request with t hem as opposed-- --

13

MJ [Col SPATH ]:

14

LDC [MR. KAMMEN) :

15

ai

Yes , ple ase , and then
Okay .

All right.

Questions by the Learned Defense Counsel [MR. KAMMEN]:

16
17
18

19
20
21
22

76
-

-

'ETC

- -

6GGI''
-

-

-

--

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLI C RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

//0PFIGIF:rs/9!l.l>t!::J'FIIBH'FI9Flf8B//

1
2
3

4
5
6
7

a
9

10
11

12
13

14
15

16
17

18
19
20

A.

I do n ot kno w.

21

Q .•

Would i t

22

TC [ MR . MILLER] :

surpri se you to learn there have been none?
Aga i n, surprising peop l e is not a ques t ion,
77

1( '1'§ (SCI 1'

'. '.? REI SP I '.571Z: FTII?JJTT 27 772 '. '.

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNClASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/ ;'OPPI@IAls/8!1.iRJ:!':l'JlEtff I@lt':l'E!B,'/
;','.Tf:!;'f:!@I,f;t

1

2

Your Honor.

MJ [Col SPATH):

Susta i ned .

Sustained .

3

4
5
6
7
8
9

10
11

12
13

14
15

16
17

18

A.

19

Q.

20

A.

21

Q.

22

don ' t know .

No , sir, I don't.

You don ' t know .

We can argue about t h i s.

78
r

rss rnr

rt

/J?SEIGIP I (PPlDPTIJEtJTJGPTER ( I

UNClASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

The fac t is you

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

;' /Ol!'l"h.. I:A:L;' t:JtUs;t, Illl!!tH I .....ls;Tl!:1'.5//
I I !Sf SCI/ I

1
2
3

4

Q.

Al l right.

So you've tried it .

You 1 ve gone to one --

5

inside one of t he cells and shouted something and put somebody in a

6

tent in the Camp Justice and asked, "Could you hear me? "

7

A.

I personally have no t.

8

Q.

Okay.

9

So how do you know i t can be heard if you haven't

done it?

79
.f.f@PPT?P I }FllTDITTII?lZTT2PTSR

6/

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

I

( (OSGTCT? I
I._.._.._

•

-..J...4.l.-'J/

(TUJDPTPOtZSPZC?WES
v

l.,J. 'I.\.J.1. J.1.WL'I.L- .J..'-"~~

.L&..JLJ/

( (
/

;'/10/00!,1;'

1

2
3
4

5

6
7

8
9

10

Q.

So you under ----

11

A.

---- based upon -- --

14

A.

That's the process we util i ze .

15

Q.

Okay.

A.

Yes.

12
13

16
17

And that 's how you run the camp in your facilities

now?

18

19
20
21
22
80

;f;(IJ

.r

ff .r

'.

I IOSPIGIP I (FBZP PT'JEDJTIGPTER ( I

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

//

J. V / o J V ~ / /

1
2

3
4

5

TC [MR . MILLER] :

Obj e c tion , Judge .

6

the scope of why we' re here today .

7

relev ant to our inquiry .

8

MJ [ Col SPATH] :

9

I think we're going beyond

I don ' t know that this i s

Yeah, l e t me -- what ' s the relevance ,

Mr . Kammen?

10
11
12
13

14
15

16
}7

18

19
20
21
22

81
))!3)36£))

) ;:err I&llilS/Utll:Uilld!IIIOl!H!!l;t;r

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

//VC£ L ~L ~ L / V NAV1M~N1 i ~~~ ~ U / /

)) 13)

SCI)}

1

2
3
4

5

6
7
8
9
10

11

12

13
14

15

16
17

18
19
20

21
22

82
Jff, £2, I33 JI J f
, ;'.;'.@??TOPI ([J)U FZTIIPIWIGDTS?' (

UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

//8FP:f 6Ii\h/ijtai\e1Tl1E!HT 1e,en::B;' ;'
11
JJ!SJSCIJJ

1
2

3

4
5
6
7
8
9

10
11

12
13

14
15

16
17

18
19
20

21
22

83
_'.(T?_'.?2T (_(

J J SL ±Lib) S!i11&£11££1-&32!123J I I

UNC.LASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCILASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/ ,'QFFI€ I.11.Js,'QN.''Jel'PIUmT T el::'PGB,' /
; '. ; (fi ;'. i i i ;'; '.

1
2
3

4
5
6
7

8
9

10
11

12
13
14

15
16

17
18
19
20
21
22

84
6 (TS (SCI C6

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

//OFFI@I2\b/181JftUTf IEISTI e ",TBB/ ;'

;t;t . s;tscr;:;r

1

2
3

4
5

6
7
8
9

10
11

12
13

14
15

16

17
18
19
20

21
22

85

66?'£ (SCI ((
;f;IUPili t;F Hf IIIIUliffTU;f I

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCILASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

,'/9lf'FI€H\I /Pmllo!JTIIIiiHTI€iATEJ,/,'
;f;'.T9 '.Sil '. '.

1
2

3

4
5

6
7
8
9

10
11

12
13

14
15
16
17

18
19
20

21
22
86

( <TS (SP ( 1

/; e>EE ICIAL/ btQM5 llll!fQ U l3l'.Tl!:tJ//

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

;' ;'8Ffl!@HtI5/f:JlJi\~TIIE!NTI @~TflB/;'
J 1J '. 23) 6615 J

1
2

3
4

5

6
7

8
9

10
11

12
13

14

15
16
17
18

19
20

21

22

87
' 'TS (SCI ( (

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

;' ;'9FPI 9Ih'&./~mAOTII8!iTI 9N:Fl38/;'

;r;tn;ta n;r;r

1

.2
3

4
5
6
7
8

9

10
11

12
13

14

15

16
17

18
19
20

21
22

88
'. '.72 _'.S?I '. '.

( (OEEI_GIAI GPNAIJTHENTIGDTED { {

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/ / v~

i.'.

J.. \..o.J.n.u / v 1.~.n.u l. 11u 1.., .1. .1. \..onJ. l!iu//

l , i v )S ..... 15,

1

A.

Yes, sir .

A.

We keep records based upon the durat i on of time they 're in

2
3

4
5

6

there, based upon our DIMS entrie s .

7

else like t hat is not managed by us .

8

9

10

Q.

All right .

And then deci$iOns upon anything

Now, just to make s ure we' re tracking , if an

individual arrives here at 6: 00 in the morning and then goes to court

at 9:00, he ' s only been in there three hours; is that correct?

11

A.

That is correct.

12

Q.

Okay .

So you have records that s h ow how long Cell Number 1

13

has been in use, Cel l Number 2 has been i n use .

14

records available?

15
16

A.

You have al l

those

I maintain t h e recor ds in DIMS of when the detainee s are

moved to and from the facilities .

17

Q.

Well, but what records exist for the cel l?

18

A.

Li ke I said, I do no t manage tha t , so I cannot t e ll you.

19

Q.

Who does?

20

A.

I don't know.

21
22
89
22) 36£ , J
;f/Oi'iiI?IP L/IIHP flTIIPtlTTGPTER''
J

J

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCILASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/ /O FPI CIA:h/8!JF~UTI1Etf'f IC..a.tFEB//
;f;f.B/08!1!;'.;t

1
2

3

4
5
6
7

13
9

10
11

12

13
14
15

17
18

19

20
21
22
90
6 '.GPRI?TDT,'.IBIPFJTPstlTIPTER ( (

UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCILASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

//81?1?IE!:EhJs/"8tlA!i3'1?1l8li'f I E!l1'f88//
;f;IH;f~ H ;'.;'.

Do you know what -- why a person is called an HVD?

1
2

A.

I know they ' ve been des i gnated as an HVD.

3

Q.

Do you know how they get that status?

4

A.

Do not .

5

Would it

6
7

A.

I h a ve not .

8

Q.

You're not familia r with t ha t .

9
10
11

12

Okay.

Now, whe n the H - - the CIA detainee is here, he ' s you r
respons ibi lity, correct?
A.

The r e ' s no CI A detainee here that I ' m track in g .

detainees that I am ma i ntaining securi t y for .

13
14
15

16
17

18
19
20

21
22

91
'. 172 '.?SJ' '.
6 (OEEIGIAI WNDPTHENTIGATED 6 C

UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

I have my

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

-- - ----·-

.............. ··- ---· ·-. _,

,

( I
, / , (O F CIC'IAI
..... , (ltbJDfJT(]FblTZGDTFP
..... ~

;(;(TC;(OOI;f;'

1

Q.

2

A.

3

LDC [MR. KAMMEN) :

4

Not completely, no.

MJ [Col SPATH ] :

6

TC [ MR. MILLER):

10

I don't have anyth i ng

Mr. Mi l ler .

Just a couple .

Thank you, Your Honor ,

for the

opportuni ty .
RECROSS-EXAMINATION

8
9

Thank you.

else .

5

7

Okay .

Questions by the Trial Counse1 [MR. MILLER]:

Q.

You indi cated that you were comf ortable wi th -- tha t mos t

11

of t h e visitors here -- tha t come here generally a re n ot thre ats; is

12

that correct?

13

A.

Yes, sir .

14

Q.

But you do have to prepare , do you not , for the eventuality

15
16

tha t they are?

A.

I absolu tel y do .

And I also realize t hat we have a

17

significant popula t ion here that's also thi rd- country nationals that

18

have certa i n clearances as wel l .

19

island.

I consider t hat as we l l, on t he

20

21
22

92

'GTS'SGI''

I I Gt L . 6114£9 6..CiiC!ilb,. ti 161212£5 1I

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

I

cI..._,.._
/onnzarn
r 'FBzn nrnrzo,·zrnzcnrnno < <
._ ... _~.,. ,o.._,, .., .,._ ... ,.~.i,~:a-1,, .t.• '"""'"•.._. JI.JI
f

;f;fT8,'.8BI;f;'.

1

A.

Yes.

2

3

4
5
6
7
8
9
10

11

12

13
14

15

16
17

18

19
20
21
22

TC [MR . MILLER}:

All right.

Thank you.

Nothing further, Your

93

'. 'TR 'CSX''

I I OE£ ICIP!L/ OldACliiEtJI ICAIBBJ J

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEAS E

;' /El F PH!Ilt:T5 /8talteJ'f ll~M'f I@i"t':Fe B/ ;'

/J . 3JISC£J J

1

Honor.

2

3

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by the Learned Defense Counse1 [MR . ~ ) :

Q.

4

5

Did you r SMO give you any kind of written repor t

concerni ng

his conversati on with Mr . Nashir i ?

6

A.

No, i t was a verbal.

7

Q.

It was ve r bal .

8

A.

That we talked about t hi s?

9

Q.

No, what day did he clai m to have had thi s conversation

10

And what day was thi s?

wi th Mr. al Nash.iri?

11

A.

Within t h e l ast t wo weeks .

12

Q.

What day , specific?

13

A.

I don't know .

14

Q.

Don't know , do you ?

15

16

You woul d have to ask t he SMO.
Okay.

And h ow was it that the SMO came to be talki ng to

Mr . a l Nashi r i abo ut this motion?

A.

17

What they were tal ki ng about, I don' t know .

18

ta l king some th i ng about medica l .

19

discussions .
LDC [MR . KAMMEN ]:

20
21
22

It was last week .

Okay .

They were

I don ' t get involved in t heir

I don't have anyt h i ng € l se.

Thank

you.
MJ [Col SPATH]:

All right .

And the same SMO will· be here in

94
(.fT? _'.S?T ((
;' ;' 0 PFI OI.Ttls;'YHftUTIIBIJT - 611 T8B;f/

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

( (OOETZT?
7 (JJtZPTJTTZE!ZWTOZWEP ( (
.j,,. -.....,.1.l.~.L.J/ V._"ILI.\.J _j,_ LJ..&..J. 1.'I .L ~ '-'LJ.J.--L.l'-',I /

I/.....,, ._&.

Jf;f w ,15@[;',f

1

March when we get h ere , corr ect?

2

Either microphone .

3

TC [ MR . MILLER) :

4

MJ [Col SPATH] :

Just make sure it's on .

Yes, Your Honor.

Al l right.

I jus t wan t to make sure.

Because

S

i f tha t SMO departs, I have a feeling we ' ll be dealing wi th that

6

i ssue.

7
8

So t hank you.
EXAMINATION BY THE MILITARY COMMISSION

Questions by the Military Judge [Col SPATH] :

9

Q.

Let me just ask Colonel Gabavics ----

10

A.

Gabavics .

11

Q.

Glad I can say i t correctly.

12
13
14

15

17

18

19
20

21
22

How many people are he::-e -- becau se t h is is kind of the
in-between, righ t?

We' re in sessi on, but we're i n a clos e d session

95
6 (TC (Sq ( (

; J GI t ±Cli&BJ U241lblilb£Jf ±ti if £SJ;

UNCILASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLI C RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/

ttaa
~
zrtz
roam
JC
/ V ' &. L .LV -L. J.1..Ll l VL'Crl.V A.J. .U ..H."i J. ..._ \,,,,.C'l,~L.,LJ/ I

/;ti ..... ) 361/J

1

without the HVD h ere.

2

in th i s?

:3

A.

So about how many of your people are involved

I did not s ee the report t his morn ing.

Based upon the f act

--

4

of the uncertainty we would have the HVD ca l l ed he r e at any point

5

during time,

6
7

8

10
11

12

13
14
15

16
17

18

19
20
21
22

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/

I I Jcanrozrz
Crn:r-zm;;a,zmrazmcs
c I
' - " 4 .l. .L. .._,.• .L. lJ. .J.J /
V .L, Ll.U'.J.l .l.l..U, '111 .1. ~ -Ll...l.L.IL..I'; /

;' /L )SCI ;f Jf

1
2

3
4

5

MJ [Col SPATH] :

All right.

I'll see -- I hopeful ly didn ' t, but

6

I ' m going to see if the p arties have a ny questions based on my

7

questions .
Defens e Counse l, based on my que st i ons?

8
9

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

10

Questions by the Lea:z:ned Defense Counsel. [MR.

KAMMEN]:

11

12
13
14

15
16

A.

My -- I did not rece ive t h e report t his morning because I

was not in the office before .

So my only assumption would be,

17

18
19
20

21
22

97

''TS (SCI''

6(OEFIGI AI CPNAPTHENIICATER ( (

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEAS E

//GPPIGIP1L /Ut ll...UTI1EtlTICP1TEB //
;t , r. . _,ra .... _//

1

2
3

4
5
6

7
8

LIDC [MR. KAMMEN ] :

9

MJ [Col SPATH]:

10

TC (MR . MILLER) :

12

LDC [MR . KAMMEN) :

13

MJ

15

All right .

Mr. Mi l ler, any fol l ow - up?

11

14

[Col SPATH ) :

Noth i ng .

18

Thank you , Your Honor .

One omitted q uestion .
Al l right .

I'll give you another chance ,

Mr . Miller, after this .

LDC [MR. KAMMEN J :

Thank you.

One quest ion .

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

16

17

I ' ve got not h ing el s·e .

Ok ay.

Questions by the Learned Defense Counsel [MR. KAMMEN]:

Q.

I assume t hat Mr . a l Nash iri ' s wi l l i ngness or u nwilling ne ss

19

or h is f ee lings t wo weeks ago versus his f eel i ngs now about sta y ing

2-0

here or being re t urned t o Camp VI I had not h i ng -- had n,o impact on

21

your opin·i on; is t hat correct ?

22

A.

That 's correct.

98
'6T? '.CG ( '.

UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

,' /9FFI5IA..L/UlJ.AUTilfHCT I 6ATEB/ /
;'/TG;'GO!;f;I

1

LDC [MR. KAMMEN]:

2

MJ [ Col SPATH ]:

3

TC (MR. MILLER]:

4

MJ [Col S PAT H] :

Thanks.

Mr . Mil ler, any fol l ow-up?
Nothi ng further.
All right .

Thank you , Your Honor .

Colonel Gabavics , remember t he

S

orde r I gave you the l ast time.

~

this isn ' t going to ge t resolved qui ckly, but t he f ocus is not to

7

t alk about your test imony .

8

abi l ity to talk to the SMO o r be invol ved, of course, as the

9

conunander of the j oint forces as a group .

10

It ' s going to be more t ime , because

So I' rn not in any way a f fec ting your

so do yo·u unde r s ta.nd the scope of my order?

11

WIT:

I do .

12

MJ [Col

SPATH] :

I just d on ' t want you to talk about what

you

13

testi fi e d here with th e a tt orneys unt i l we re so l ve the i ssue.

14

certainly do not want to impi nge on you doing your job when you ' re

15

o u t of here .

16

your testimony .

17

TC [MR- MI LLER] :

1:8

admon i tion also applied to h im talking t o the attorneys, or do you

19

not want him tal king to the attorneys ?

20
21

22

MJ

I know you understand that .

Thank you .

I

Thanks for

You ' re excused.

Your Honor , before the wi tness leaves , is

(Col SPAT H ] :

I

do not mind at thi s point i.f he talks to the

attorneys, at a ll .

TC [MR . MILLER]:

your

Thank you.

99
;f;f II i 111 ;f;i
.f.(??ii'TGTD I (EJJTP IlTIWtlWTGRTEPJ/

UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

/ / v

1

MJ [ Col SPATH]:

2

TC [ MR. MILLER]:

3

MJ [ Col SPATH] :

J.:

1:

I \,,.,- .1..n.LJ / Vl'f.n.v ..&. U J..JL~ .1.
, I 13) 5 .._2; I

i

'-.n. .1.

.a.:., v

//

Thanks .
Thank you for the clari fica tio n, Your Honor .
No, thanks for asking.

I u s ually g ive them the

4

admonition and say they can talk to the attorneys .

5

didn ' t d o that because I k new we would have brea ks in the testimony ,

6

and I didn 't want any concerns, so -- all right.

7

[The witness was warned, temporarily excused and withdrew from the

8

courtroom. ]

9

Yesterday I

That motion as we work -- as we work th rough

MJ [Col SPATH]:

10

Appel l ate Exhibit 359, or the 359 series , we're obviously not going

11

to resolve unt il March, as we t a lked abou t , and we will continue t o

12

work through i t .

13

progress and hop efully ge t some closure .

We' l l h ave the SMO here in March and make some more

For the do c uments you requested, yes, p l ease , ask the

14
15

government.

16

And I don ' t know how I wo uld r u le.

17

compromi se, I woul~ come to compr omise.

18

move forward i nto 359 .

19

I ' l l have a motion to compel, a nd maybe we can r eso l ve that before we

20

get here .

21
22

I ' m not p re - r uling.

I know you know me well enough .

I f the r e ' s a way to come to
I t wil l then ma ke it easy to

I f we can't come to compromi s e , tha t ' s okay .

So no direction , n o thou ghts.

I just know tha t attorneys

real ly can work together and show e ach other things and make life a
1 00
)).2)822))

;S;CovjliOHT :<om rzm11m1mIGnw22 ':'

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBU C RELEASE

1

little eas ier

for he re.

2

We've got 092 outstanding .

3

General Martins.

4

CP [BG MARTINS ] :

5

MJ [Co l SPATH] :

6

CP ( BG MARTINS] :

But we' l l see how i t goes.

All right .

Your Honor , I have a houseke eping matter .

Sure.
Your Honor , I mentioned in the 505 (h) a

7

d eclaration t ha t I f e lt bore upon aspects of why we closed t h i s that

8

I wanted to

MJ ( Col SPATH):

9

CP ( BG MARTINS ] :

10

This i s for the 092 ?
No - - we ll , i t can relate t o the 092 , b u t it

11

related to t he SMO and why I stood up, and i t relates to a lot of the

12

question ing you just had .

13

14

Mr. Kammen , I'll give you a chance to address this,
but

15

MJ [Col SPATH) :

16

CP [BG MARTI NS ]:

Well , I ' ll give him a chance.

I have~ - Roger .

Understood .

I have the dec laration o f Admiral Clarke that I referred to

17

18

in a 505 (h ) .

19

appellat e exh ibit, unders t anding they may obj ect to you considering

20

it .

21
22

I would li ke the corruniss i on to ac t ually have this as an

We would lik e you to conside r it .
The proceeding s we 've had,

I believe , make it important.

I t ' s an updated dec l aration i n many ways to the Fraser decl aration
101
'. '.72 '.SU'. '.
I /OEEIGJDI (PDJDPTI?StJTIGDTSP / /

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

11GEE!CIAL)GNAOiHENliCAIE0}1
11· ,.::,1.:;>l..,.J.f/

1
.2

3

that we were loo king at yes te rday .
MJ [Col SPATH]:

So i t

exhibit at this po int ?

4

CP (BG MART I NS]:

5

MJ [Co l

6

SPATH ] :

u nderstand .

8

MJ [Col SPATH] :

So the Fraser declar.ation that

Correc t .

---- as part o f Appellate Exhibit 014, this is

an update.
CP [BG MARTINS ):

11

commission on how to

12

MJ [Col SPATH]:

Your Honor, and

r

woul d defer to the

I 'll get to how to mark it.

sure I understand you .

14

a ffidavit in Appel l a te Exhibit 014.

CP [BG MARTINS]:

I

want to make

This is an update to General Fraser ' s

13

15

Not in this case.

you directed me to ----

CP [BG MARTINS ]:

10

Not i n this case .
I

7

9

has not been attached to an appella te·

I t is.

I thin k it bears , t hough , upon 059.

16

So that's why I'm doing this housekeeping matter here, and it bears

17

upon why you decided to close this test i mony and so forth .

18

again, I t h ink it ' s both relevant t o the 014 series and your

19

protective order, and I t hink it's relevant to 359 , understanding

20

t hey just -- t hey' re just getting i t ~

21

copy of it myself and wanted to get it to you as quickly as I

22

could ----

So

I

don•t - -

102
JJ . ~l ~~~ JJ
, ;r;foI?l?iHI t;rm1urriil11nurii;';f

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

I

So,

j ust got a

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLI C !RELEASE

5 , 13/SC± i l

1

MJ [Col SPATH ) :

2

CP [BG MART INS]:

3

MJ [Col SPATH]:
to mark it .

I' l l

CP [BG MARTINS]:

7

MJ [Col SPATH):
we" l l

Ma y I have a copy of i t ?

We' ll fi gure out wh a t

ta l k t o the court reporters .

6

8

- --- in light of the Appellate Exhibi t 014

cons i derat.ions.

4
5

Al l right .

May I approach?

You may .

f igure out marking.

r r11 t a l k to the cou r t repor t ers, and

Please.

Thank you .

And I ' m j ust gett i ng this as well , and so in that r egard I

9

10

h aven ' t h ad a chance to l ook at i t close l y enou gh .

11

date this was signed?

12

CP [BG MARTINS ] :

Do you know what

Your Honor, it d oesn't bear a signature date .

13

Th e d ate of the fi ling was 29 J anuary, so we submitted it o n 29

14

Janua r y 2016

15

MJ [Col SPATH] :

16

CP [BG MARTINS] :

I n the o t her case.
---- in the other case .

It was attach ed t her e

17

to Appellate Exh i bit 400C, which was a government respo nse to press

18

movant 's motion t o un s ea l the 30 October 2015 t ranscript o f public

19

proceedings .

20

Admiral Clar ke.

21
22

And tha t i s t he

what stimulated the decl aration from

So that aspect o f i t does not d irectly bear here , because
we haven ' t

had a p ublic release or a pub l ic transc ri pt t h at so
103

,5.'@E? TSTJ I .f'.TJY Tll?P IT JQ] TERI/

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLI C !RELEASE

 UNClASSIFI EO//FOR PUBLIC RELEAS E

,,vcci~iKD/UNHU ! n~~~i~ft~ ~ U / /

I I I .JI..:,(.,_) I

1

concerns an or i g i nal classi fica t ion auth o r ity .

2

number of paragraphs o f · this do provide a more immediat-e sense of the

3

equities that you see i n Admiral

4

li ke to offer it .

5

MJ [Col SPATH) :

But

I would submit a

Fraser's declaration , and I would

But Rear Admira l Clar ke was making th e

6

decl aration for -- spec i fical l y for i ssues associ a t ed with t he other

7

case .

8

CP [ BG MARTINS ] :

9

MJ [ Col SPATH ):

He was .
I

10

CP [ BG MARTINS ) :

11

MJ [Col SPA'I'H ] :

12

·CP [ BG MART INS) :

just want to make sure
Al::>sol utely,

----

Absolutel y.

Okay .
This is not a speci a l declaration £or the

13

Nashiri li t igation , b u t it does dea l with some o f the same i ssues of

14

manning o f the faci l ity, and the "spec ific over all Camp VI I

15

operat i ons " is t h e phrase that he uses that I believe is what we were

16

getting close to ----

1.7

MJ [ Col SPATH) :

18

CP [ BG MART INS ) :

19

MJ [ Col SPATH ):

Al l

right .

I understand.

the other day .

We ' ll probably, by e-mail , let you know what it

20

is mar ked and accepted int o t he recor d .

21

Hold on , Mr . Kamme n.

22

I got cha.

I owe you at least where

it is .
104

.fJ1 2i H

;f;I
, 6 (OSST?P I (Pl)] flTfl stJT TG FTE R 6 f

UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

)JOEei C±At}ONAOIHENI ICAIEO)J
/ / 1 .::Jf.::JL,.J.f/

1

CP [BG MARTINS):

2

MJ (Co l SPATH):

Thank you.
It i s probab l y going t o be i n the 359 series,

3

but I'm going t o check with the court r eporters , make life easy for

4

them and u s .

We ' l l

5

move forwa r d.

Al l

l et you know wh a t letter to refer to it as we
right.

Thank you, General Martins .

6
7

CP [ BG MART INS ] :

8

MJ [Co l SPATH]:

9

Thank you .
Mr . Karrunen, not a lot to do with t his yet.

just have it.

10

LDC [MR, KAMMEN] ;

11

MJ ( Col SPATH ]:

12

for thi s particular case.

13

I

I un derstand .
I haven' t r ead it , and i t ' s not a decl aration

LDC (MR. KAMMEN]:

And it would seem to me, if I u nderstand t he

14

procedure s correctly t hat we're all supposed to be following,

15

prosecut or shou l d b e f il i ng a mot ion t o supplement some file , and i f

16

that wer e appr o v ed , t hen he cou ld f i l e t h is .

17

the rules we were operating under as opposed to us just standing a n d

18

saying, look a t this .

19

MJ

[Col SPATH ] :

the

And I thought t hat was

I'm happ y to go wi th l e t 's jus t look at this.
I t i s.

Let me jus t say this -- and I agree

20

with you .

I n lar ge pa rt , t hat i s cer t a i n l y the p rocess .

21

a l lowed both sides occasional ly to provi de me a ppe llate exhibits in

22

the midst of this effort to try and ge t to t he r i g h t answer s .

J

105
,i£SJi± & ,

Ji

, f cs ~ EI?BI (Il)JP[JT[)SJZTTGDTER 6 '.

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEAS E

I have

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

//OffiCIAL?ONAOIHENl lCAI EOJ J
//L...> /.J...._,,.J..//

l

LDC [MR . KAMMEN) :

2

MJ [Col SPATH]:

3

And so - - but that's why .

LDC (MR. KAMMEN'J :

5

MJ [Col SPATH ] :

6

LDC [MR. KAMMENJ :

Nobody ' s opposed to closing this pa rt of the

hearing .
MJ [Col SPATH ] :

9

LDC [MR , KAMM ENJ :

11

Here 's my concern.

Tell me , p l ease.

8

10

It wil l just help me

read it .

4

7

I unde r stand .

Concur .
And so essentially he's saying here is more

justificati on f o r do i ng wha t we ' ve already done .
MJ [Co l SPATH ]:

It i s.

And yesterday I -- General Mart i ns and

12

I have a fundamental disagreement on what caused the c l osure

13

yesterday .

14

15
16

LDC [MR. KAMMEN) :

Well , and we could speak t o that when we're

back on t he record as opposed to i n closed session .
MJ [Col SPATH] :

Yes .

17

the r e.

18

We can talk about i t later.

19

LOC [MR, KAMMEN ] ;

20

MJ [Co l SPATH]:

21

22

That 's righ t.

We hav e a disagreement

It was an accide nta l quest ion that didn't l@ad to a spill .

And just so we ' re--- Or , no, i t was a good ques t ion t hat

didn ' t

lt!ad

to a spill .
LDC [MR . KAMMEN) :

And when I r evi ewed his notes , his discuss ion

106

; ; .z: 23&) I,
, ;6;'.@iiiiiIT L;(IUZP TZTIIPITTIGJ TSP f '

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCLASS IFIED//FOR PUBUC RELEAS E

/ / OFFieI~e/tM.Pttf'fl!ENTI C.:!'fr~ e/;'
5 I £SJ 561/ 5

1

was not about corpsmen .

2

MJ [Col SPATH ) :

3

LDC [MR . KAMMEN) :

But tha t -- we" l l visit that in March.

That's ri ght.

But -- b ut here -- j ust a qui ck reading of

4

this .

5

classification o f medi cal records .

The Fraser declaration was ger mane because of the

MJ [Col SPATH) :

Correct .
A qui ck reading of this says nothing about

LDC [MR . KAMMEN) :

7

So

So I just

8

medi cal records .

9

C9-re, because we cton 't car e

I just don't see how it's -- I don ' t
we agr eed that this s ho u l d be c l osed .

just don ' t see the point of i t, and that ' s par t of the reason I

10

I

11

think that t h e procedures shoul d be followed.

12

MJ

15

I

unde,rstand.

All right .

More to come .

I ' m going to hand this to t he security officer so I don ' t

13

14

[Col SPATH] :

have it .

All right.
So for 092, I t hink let me -- I have some quest i ons for the

16

government.

I heard that we may hear -- before we get to an

17

ex parte, I u nderstand t here,' s something about g r anu larity, so I ' m

18

going to try not to get to tha t po i nt .

19

So Li eutenant Morris or General Martins , I don ' t

20

going to -- do you wan t to say something, or do you want ques tions?

21

Or a question , frankly.

22

ATC [ LT MORRIS ) :

know who 's

I'm open to q uestions , Your Honor, towards
107
'(TS (SGT ' '

1 (OSEICID I WMAPTH ENTIGATED 11

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBUC RELEASE

//OPf.FI '"'IAL;'r,MAUI HE.N I -'-CAIEO/ /
))£3)3€1))

1

getting -- as you said, towards resolution.

2

which may h elp Your Honor going forward.

I have p repared i tems

And I think tha t remindi ng oursel ves that we ' re at a place

3
4

where this commission h as already approved a substi tute , you know ,

5

the r u l es a r e c l ear tha t in terms of the abi li ty of the defense to

6

challen ge that r u l ing th a t there 's been a fair substitute -- I mean,

7

what we h ave here i s a dig ital , you know , substitution .
MJ

8

9

I concur in -- a l most with every thing you said ,

[Col SPATH}:

which is a j udge prior to me has apparent ly

and n ow t hat I have

10

read some more of it , I have yet to look at it -- ap proved a

11

substitute .

12

Agreed.

The motion filing in 092, the core of t he motion, is

13

destru ction of evide nce.

14

that .

15

might be spot on , the mot i on itsel f .

16

y ou know wha t

17

might be res olvabl e .

18

filings .

19

So lots of hypotheticals you can take from

That par t i cula r motion might not be ripe , might be moot or
Not the resolution .

I a m saying, t he resolution of the mot ion.

I t h in k
So 092

I t likely just wi ll lead to othe r motion

That ' s my ques ti on , is:

Gi ven tha t a req u e s t was made to

20
21

we ta l k ed about i t yesterday -- Mr . Kammen c l e a rl y h as b een advi sed

22

of that somehow, through y·ou all.

Today, has that occurred?
1 08

'.'.T?.'??IU
1

I (OSEIGIPI (IHIPIJTJJSDrJTIGPTER / /

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBUC RELEASE

It's a

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

//eP~ ~~~nL/~N~6 £HENll Ch iE u1 1
If ISISCI/ I

1
2

yes or no .

I do not need any mor e g ranularity than that.

I mean , the request from t he government was we want to do

3

away wi th i t.

4

an agreement and an ex parte fil ing that there would be a substitute

5

of a v i deo that I am going to look at.

6

ex pa r te fi l i ng -- ex parte filing.

7

was given to you , I can do the comparison as wel l .

8

important to mak,e sure the two of t hem are the same.

9

We're going to des troy it .

I mean, that's it .

And apparently there was

I~m going to look at the

That way , when I look at what

Because if it has been, 092 is the

10

right motion ; if it hasn' t been, 092 is moot.

11

other motion pract ice.

12
13

ATC [LT MORRIS] :

I think it 's

And then there will be

Mayr, You r Honor, provi de you granulari t y

wi thin -- I know you asked for a yes-or-no answer, and follow ing

14

MJ ( Col SPATH) :

15

foll ow- on questions .

16

been -- I mean, the motion is destruction of evidence .

17

ATC [LT MORRIS] :

I'm not aski ng -- yeah, I don't have any
Because the motion is just:

Has the evidence

Let me provide Your Honor the following, and I

18

think t h is wil l be more helpful than that, and even more fulsome .

19

But t hese are good -- this i .s good fencing for me in terms of what I

20

can provide here .

21
22
10 9
J J

26) 53£)

J

),'. ________ /- -···--··-·'- . ____ PP)J

UNCLASS IFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

))£3)361))

1
2

3

You know,

you can -- and as Yo ur Honor wil l

see, using this

4
5

r6
7
8

9

10
11

MJ

12

leas t

13

seems ,

[Col SPATH] :

And I think we're saying t he same thing at

in -- i t 's hard to get yeses and noes from lawye rs .
I

This o ne

think , closer.

14

15
16
17
18

19
20

Is that -- not rephrasing.

I s that saying back to you what

you sai d to me ?

21

ATC [LT MORRIS]:

22

MJ [ Col SPATH] :

Yes,
Al l

Your Hono r .

right.

What

I imagine is going to happen

11 0
JJ

IS) 36£)

J

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

J/l.....,J/....,J\..,.l./1

1

is different motion filings from t he defense .

And that's not

2

again, no sugg,e stion a bout rulings or fu ture practice or what we' 11

3

4
5
But what you're te lling me is , wel l , the structur e is there

7

and r e l eva n t material or relevant items i nside , as referenced in the

8

subs t i tution, s t ill exist , a t l east right now .

9

10
11

ATC [LT MORRIS ] :

Correct, Your Honor .

MJ [Col SPATH] ;
momen t .

Ano

r

Is t ha t f air?

Okay.

Let me t a lk wi th Mr . Kanunen for a

appre c i ate that granular ity.

That he lped,

Than k you.

So, Mr. Kamme n?

12
13

LDC [MR . KAMMENJ :

14

MJ [Col SPATH ] :

Who goes first ,

you or me'?

Wel l, l et' me ask .

Here 's my ques tion to you :

15

I don ' t k now what motions you migh t file in response to that.

16

some guesses , becaus e t h e y ' v e been filed i n t he past, or prese r vat i on

17

mot i o n s, r equ est a v is i t .

18

LDC [MR . KAMMEN) :

I have

The most -- l ook , t he most important thing ,

19

given the hi5t ory of t his , is that you today - - and you have the

20

a uthor i ty today to enter an or de r directi ng that t he status quo be

21

preserved.

22

· we wil l fi l e a ddi tional motions, absolute ly , based upon

11 1

J, 13) 661 ,

J

;r;rorr I Sil ib) I l!fllfJU Illl!ltll I IJfiffUJ;f ;f

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCILASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

//9 PPI8VtE/9HNe'i'Il8H'Pl Eil1'i'EB;' /
;f;IHl;f!I 111;'.;f

But I don ' t want it to become a race between u s

1

this representation.

2

where we can ' t

3

months , and the people who wa nt t o destroy it .

4

get i nto court for another three -- two a nd a half

And so I think i t is fai r, g iven the representation s, that

5

6
7

B

can't go bac k t o y esterday , but we don ' t want to come in here i n

9

March and, you know , have the prosecutor say, well , today it 's a ll

10

been d estroyed.
So that ' s -- one~ -- if yo u wil l do that t o preserve your

11

12
13

j urisdi ction and author i t y ---MJ [Col SPATH):

Because that does change , a t

14

moment, unless tomorrow i t's des troyed .

15

changes where we were.

16

LDC (MR . KAMMENJ:

17
18

19
20

Yes, abso lutely .

least at the

But , I mean , today t ha t

But that's why we -- you

kno w, we can ' t go through this , t he whole we file it 1 4 days- - - MJ [ Col SPATH] :

I understand .

That , I unders tand .

I ' m g oing

t o talk t o the g overnment about tha t.
LDC (MR . KAMMEN] :

21

and we'll

22

i t ' s a ll of that .

If you do that , then we know how to p roceed ,

proceed - - it will be secret.

We're n ot go i ng

112

1 6TS (SCI 11
1{OEWICIAI <PNAPTHENTICATfQ{(

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

you know,

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

;' /OFPI6IAJ5/Emi"tOT1IfllJTH!!MEJB/;'
J J ISJ SUJ J

1

But we just want to preserve - - we don' t want t o have t his

2

happen aga i n, you know .

3

hear d i fferent things .

4

maybe it wasn ' t .

And maybe -- look , I mean, you k now, we al l
This may be what Mr . Morr i s was saying , and

But t h is may a l l be sol vab l e with a t rip.

We may be a bl e to go there , look at what -- you know , and

5
6

their pos itio n may be , look, six men a nd a wi ld monkey are not going

7

to get you i nto this place.

MJ [ Col SPATH ] :

8

9

At l eas t then we can have

the
LDC [MR . KAMME N]:

11

MJ [Col SPATH] :

13

That's what we have you fo r.

That ' s right .

10

12

Fin e .

Right.
- -- - intell ectua l d iscus s ion about t he right

answer.
LDC [MR . KAMMEN):

Right.

Bu t we 've got to h ave the order

14

p re serving it , and it ' s got to be today.

15

Otherwise , we ' re going to get here in March and you'll ask the

16

prosecutor who is t h ere t hen , and I guarantee you the answer wi l l be

17

di ff ere nt .

18
19

or

MJ [Col SPATH] :

That ' s really critical.

I'l l be rece ivi ng an ex parte fi l i ng and

we ' ll be having the same discussions.

20

LDC [MR . KAMMEN ] :

21

MJ [ Col SPATH ]:

22

LDC [MR . KAMMEN) :

Wel l, yeah ---I 'd li ke to avo i d some of that , if we can .
Right .

But---113

6 (TS 6SGI 6 6

'(QffICIPI 'IINDPTHfNTJCATED / /

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

C caanre
<
I,...,,,.._&.
.l.'- ~r:....LI / V

l.,..t"'l. V J. J. J.J.:.,J.~ J. -1..\..o&"'\J.&;. U / /

I f I IS)

1
2

3

MJ [ Col SPATH}:
know if I can .

so ... ,'

I want t o stay out of that , if I can .

I don ' t

Hoping to stay out of it.

LDC [MR . .KAMMEN } :

Well, I understand .

I t seems to me -- I

4

understand a ll the nationa l security stuff and all of t ha t .

5

d oes seem to me , Your Honor, that once a matte r is before the

But i t

6
7

8

know, t here comes a point when the ex parte pr ocess becomes so

9

abusive that i t's the r esponsibil ity of the commi ss i on to curtail it.

10

But r i ght now a l l we j ust need is an o r der telling --

11

making sure the governme·nt of the United States p r eserves this

12

evidence , in whatever form i t i s now , so that we can have t his fi g ht

13

in a reasonable way la t er on .

14

work through it in a way that is -- and,. you know, obviously preserve

15

it, keep it as it is, no further modifications.

16

today, December - - 11 t h?

17

MJ [ Col SPATH ] :

18

LDC [MR. KAMMEN} :

19

done for the moment.

20

MJ [Col SPATH ) :

21

ATC [ LT MORRIS] :

22

And we can work through it , and we can

Preserve it as it is

16th .
1 6th.

December 16th, 2016.

Do tha t, we' re

Thank you .
Lieut enant Morris.
Your Honor,

I don't think Mr. Kammen is being

glib when he says I understand t his nation al security stuff, bu t, to
114
'. 117 '.RP'.'.

6 '9FPCIDI 6HNDHTWFNTIGDTEP' 6

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

,Jvcci~i~L/UNfiU l ntNiL~ftltU//

, )±S)SC...))

1

be qui te frank, he has a responsibility to zealously represent his

2

client.

3

the prosecutors, and those are diffe rent.

We have responsibili t ies in regards t o national securi ty as

4

MJ [Col SPATH]:

5

ATC [LT MORRIS ] :

Absolutely.
For Mr . Kammen's specific r e qu·est , we oppose

And we oppose it for the reasons that we will then have to

6

it .

7

explain to Your Honor i n an ex parte presentation and for the same

8

reasons, Your Honor, that we provided in our ex part e present ation i n

9

the sununer of .2012, Your Honor -- or an ex parte fi l ing is what I

10

mean , Your Honor.
MJ [Col SPATH]:

11

12

It i s -- t hat one, I 'm struggling just because

of the time between ' 12 and now, with - - not with t h e lack o f
That doesn' t bother me .

13

It 's just that

14

the ration -- we probabl y need to have t h a t d i scussion , and maybe we

15

will.

16

Let me ask this - - and if we can ' t , I get it.

Maybe this

17

gets to the granularity you donr t want to di scuss .

18

for a brief window where I can - - so maybe you all know t his, and

19

maybe you don ' t ,

20

who's doing what, o r anything like that.

21
22

I'm j ust l ooking

And , again, I don't need to know what ' s happening,

Are there likely to be modi fi cations or c h anges in the
short term?

Define "short term" as -- we have the Christmas holiday

115
IC/OERIOTD I

([UJD EJTIIFIJTJGJTER I I

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

1

here - - over the nex t

2

ATC (LT MORRIS ):

3

30 days.
Your Honor, we wi l l explain this in an

ex parte presentation.

MJ [Co l SPATH):

4

Okay.

I understand.

I recognize many issues .

5

One is there has been a substit ution proposed.

6

to that, of course, is the judge approved the subst itution without

7

seeing t he evidence that he was substituting it for.

8

120 series of filings, right , I see the stuff.

9

substitution.

10

defense.

The defense argument

Whereas in the

I see the proposed

And I see wha t it will look l i ke when it reaches the

And so I have the original .
And so I just -- aga i n, these aren't rulings, these are

11

I get it.

12

issues that I think you would see with CIPA .

13

It ' s j ust

14

substitute.

15

t ime, Genera l Mar t i ns .

16

Government in the co11U'lliss i ons process gave heightened protections for

17

capital defendants.

18

the extent necessary, the protections they'd have in a federal court

19

to include, you know, t he mitigation case, which this seems to r elate

20

to.

21
22

You would

the re ' s go i ng to be the argument of to approve a
And I don ' t use a capi ta l case as a solve-it-all every

I promise you .

I use i t

That's their choice.

as t he United States

And par t of those were, to

So that's what I am t rying to wrap my bra in around,

i s you

understand the risk that is upon you if ultimately there's an issue

r.:

11 6
'.

'.

I /OEEIGIDI /PDJDPTHSblTIGDTFP / /

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

// 9 E'!?I E!Il'tri,C:~mF!t:J'FHBU:P I E!i"t:PBB ;' ;'
; ;fH;'.!!2;1;1

1

with the substitution or I f ind -- because I haven't ruled yet

2

that a responsible judge would have viewed the original -- and this

3

i s not

4

I 'm not co.nun.e n ting on i t .

When I say this, I'm not saying I don't agree with Judge

5

Pohl or do agree -- would ha.ve gone and loo ked at it, b ut maybe d!id

6

t hrough photos or something l ike that.

7

lots of ways t hat can happen before approving a substitution.

8

Judge Pohl did just that , right?

9

about it, so

10

There ' s - - you know, there's
Maybe

And, again, I haven ' t talked to him

and I 'm not going to.

If I talk t o him about it, i t

will be here as a witness, I thi nk.

11

So what I ' m -- you unde rstand what I am trying to ask here

12

or what I am trying to do , is there i s some l i tiga tion risk on the

13

government .
ATC [LT MORRIS ] :

14

15

territory.

16

this

I mean, you have your predecessor that has ruled on

17

MJ [Col SPATH]:

18

ATC [LT MORRIS ]:

19

MJ (Col $PATH] :

20
21
22

Your Honor is not stepping out into uncharted

He did .

---- but ~n addi tion to that ---He approved the -- that 's right .

He approved

the substi tute .
ATC [ LT MORRI S ] :
histor ical .

But in addition to that ,

I mean, tha t is just

But beyond this , I mean, we would point Your Honor

117

1 6TS 'SCI' 6

1(QffICIAl <PNRPIHENTICATFQ{(

UNCLASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

 UNClASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

/ /Ol!'rICIAJSJ'tm,tJ I 11614 I ICM .l!!D/}
JI

t...J/ ...>._.J./ /

1

t owards t he Moussaoui case that dea l t with a similar issue here.

2

h ave a capital case .

3

they reached a resolut i on without actually int erviewing the actual

4

witnesses .

5

of facts, approved an exact same substitute.

6

we

We have a fede ral court ut il iz ing CIPA in which

We also have Judge Sullivan who, with this exact same set

In add ition, we would just submit to Your Honor and i mpress

7

upon you to view the video and dig i tal substi tut ion , and what you 'l l

8

see there - - --

9

MJ [Col SPATH ] :

Absolutely, r•m going to do that .

Again , I 'm

10

going to view th€ government's ex parte fi l ing, and then once we fix

11

the t echnol ogy fix , a l though I be lieve l i kely they ' re going to be

12

exactly the same, I owe i t to Mr. Kammen to loo k at what was shown to

13

Judge Pohl and what was given to Mr . Karnmen to, at the very least,

14

make sure they 're the same ; or if they're d i f f erent, talk about it .

15

So I p romise you and I assure you I'm going t o look at those.

16

What I hear i s we ' re at a place that you need an ex parte
Is it something tha t we can do here wi th the court

17

s ubmission .

18

repo rters on t he record now, or is it something you want to submi t a

19

f i ling on?

2-0

ATC [LT MORRIS ]:

21

MJ [Col SPATH] :

22

May I have just a moment , Your Honor?
You may .

[ l?ause . ]

118
) , -3)32))

;f gf 8i:r HU L;'.JJllJ Fliilillii?J ii??;'.;'.

UNClASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

;' /OPF:IeI:/l!ds/{;lijJitJ ... Ill!.N'fle!\'fl!.e;';'
I J 22; 561/;

ATC [LT MORRIS ] :

l

I think we could use our t i me, you. know , that

2

we' re a l l here now, to have some of that conversat ion.

3

would li ke to -- we have the opti on to sup -- or t o come t o Your

4

Honor in a filing as wel l .

5

ours~lves of the opportun i ty now.

6

MJ [ Col SPATH] :

7

8

But we would like to try and avai l

All right.

Sep arate iss ue.

I u n derstand .

The c l assified fi l ing , Gener al Marti ns,

the affidavit 1 ha ve, it has some highl i ghts on it .
CF [BG MARTINS];

9

10

MJ (Col SPATH ]:

Obviously we

I don ' t

Pe r haps I gave you the wrong one.
Not a worr y .

I j ust

the one that goes in

11

the record needs t o be clean, and I want a clean one before I get i t .

12

I d i dn't even notice the hi ghlights .

13

highli ghts .

14
15

Perfect .
you .

My securi ty offi cer not iced the

I ' m going to trade you, General Martins .

Thank

Here you go.

16

And, again , we 'l l sort through it.

I f we ' re goi n g to have

17

a fi ling on this exhibit , Mr. Kammen, you'll see t he reques t for

18

filing, and then you can make a mot ion to s upplement .

19

t o accept i t , you ' l l see an appe l late exhibit number, a n d we'll move

20

forward.

21
22

I f we're going

We made t he process c u nbersome with the motions to
supplement and file , and that -- agai n , I can wish it were d i fferent
119
.' /BREI GIP I (PDZPIZTIISPZTIGDTED I I

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

;' ;' 8 l?I?I 8IA~/'8U.\8THBH'f I@f:Tl!!l8;' ;'

1

ways.

But we h ave -- I' ve a llowed both sides to take advantage of

2

t hat opportuni ty when we're here live because it helps me get to

3

resolution, even if ultimately the information given t o me isn't

4

he l p fu l.

5

pieces of t his .

I can discard it very qui ckly and move to the relevant

Mr . Kammen , I appreciate what you have said about 0 92.

6

7

onl y thi ng I can tell you is - - a few things:

8

an order withou t briefings, you'~l see it ; if I 1 m not, you won't,

9

obvi ously, and you ' 11 know that .

10

I f I'm going to issue

I f I ' m going to issue -- if I'm not -- i f I ' m going to

11

affirm a destruction o r der, it w: 11 be de livered to you .

12

go ing to be done withou t notificati on.

13

it.

14

to the other side, we want t o avoid.

I t 's not

Again, that doesn't change

What happened last time for whateve r reason where it didn ' t get

And so ultimately if I concur and I say it's going to be

15

16

The

des troyed or can be destroyed,

17

LDC [MR. KAMMEN ] :

18

MJ [Col SPATH] :

not i ce wi ll come to you.

Okay .

And I recognize that -- and , a gain , I ' m not

r don't know because r haven't heard the ex part e

19

rul ing.

20

presentat i on and I don' t unde r stand t he scope of the playing f ie l d ,

21

and I want to .

22

And then we ' l l

kind of go f rom there.

So I believe you' ve made the record and certainly p ut

120
JiJI _JJiil 11,l;f
f I (?SETSPZ (HtJP ·zmPENTIGPTER I I

UNClASSIFIEO//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

//6F~ICL~L/~HA~Ttt~~l i CAIED//
/JISJBCI/)

1
2

your sel f in

-0

pos i tion that was different than y e sterday .

LDC [MR . KAMMEN) :

The one t h i ng I real ly want to stress , a nd - -

3

is tha t we ' re dealing with an agency that i s not ent i t l ed to a

4

p r esumpt ion of good faith .

s

And I don't think that can be o v e r stated.

They have -- the CI A has lied to cour t aft er court after

6

cou rt after court , 9/ 11 Commi ssion , Congress .

7

t hey have an agenda, and they have -- they a re not enti t led to a

8

p resumpt i on of good faith .

9

These -- you k now ,

Part o f ou r concern i s you h ave an exhibit that they - - the
The r e is no i ndependent

10

CIA e s s e ntial l y te l ls you thi s i s the place .

11

ve rifica t ion t h at what you h ave i s actua l l y the p l a c e.

12

Your Honor,

13

a n y more credibility than a n y other thing , given t he hi stor y .

14

And f"ra nkly,

At a mi nimum, t he governme nt shou l d have provided some t hing

15

from someone -- someth i ng c o ntempor aneous f r om someone who was the re

16

who affirms t h i s is the plac e and this is how it loo ked when the y

17

we r e t ort uring peo p l e th e r e.

18

how -- you know , I mea n, I thi nk t here is t h is fundament a l p r oblem.

19

And the n when you say -- you know , you listen to them and may a ll ow

20

the dest r uction , I t hi nk that furthe r compound s the problem .

21
22

And in t he absence of t h at, I don't see

And that ' s wh y -- and, you know , if we can stop th i s
p roc e ss , you kn o w - -

ye ah , there' s -- you can argue about
121
'. 672 '?2I '. '.
( (QSEICJQJ (UDJQPTHENTICPTED C1

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

//OPEICIAL7UNAOIRENIICA1£0))
)) .d) SCI)}

1

litigation -- you can counsel them about l i tigation risks, but I'm

2

not going to be naive he r e .

4

i t ' s al l good.

5

bene fi t of the doubt or , you know , wow , i t 's onl y one place and , you

6

know, everyone admits he was tortured , so there's r eally no harm

7

here.

8
9

You know, the l i t i gation risk is on us ,

And, you know , our fear is you' l l give t hem the

We l l , this is an opport uni ty to avoid al l of that and to
rescue vict ory f rom the j aws of defeat for t he syste m.

And it's

10

troubling to me th.a t even i n light of a ll of thi s and all the

11

h i s t ory,

12

know .

13

and over aga in.

you

And, you k n ow,

14

I think we 're going to have t h i s argument over

At some poin t the gove r nment , writ l arge , of the

15

Onited States has t o mak e a dec i sion .

16

or , you know, do t hey want

17

he'd be

fac i ng a l i f e sentence and we ' d have -- l ife would bear lot

18

s i mpler.

But i f they decide t hey - - if the y persist i n wanting t o

19

k i ll h i m, then , you know , you -- the l itiga tion risk can ' t always be

20

on us, and that ' s t h e way this is p l aying out .

21
22

Do they want to kill Nashiri

to do something else'?

Because, you know ,

And so, you know, again, we're power l ess here .

We -- you

know, you're goi ng t o do what you're going to do, but we do as k you
1 22
JJ

El 222;;

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

 UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE

/ ;'OPPICIAL/UtJilrUTIIElQT I5ATEB/ ;'

;'/ ~@/!!!§ _;r,·

1

to consi der the p roblems and the history and everything e l se, and the

2

fact that if i t's waited four years, i t c an wait another s i x months .

3

Thank you .

4

MJ (Col SPATH ):

All right .

I believe tha t closes what we can talk about i n this 806

5

I gave you a preview about March , more to come.

6

hearing .

7

a new order out.

8

Thank you .

If you all can sta.y behind, we' 1 1 clear the room and we' 11

9

enter into an ex parte p r oceeding very qui ckly .

10

For t he defense , thank you .

11

LDC [MR . KAMMEN):

12

MJ [Col SPATH ] :

13

14

We'll ge t

I ' l l see you----

See you a t the plane.
- --- in Mar ch or on the p l ane.

So the 806 is adjourned.

Thanks .

[The R.M.C. 806 session recessed at 1218 , 16 December 2016.]

15

[END OF P-AGE]

12J
1

;'. I i ITU'. I
6 /OEFIGTDI .fPDIPPTPFDJTJGPTFP ( (

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR PUBLIC !RELEASE