LA- - f,

cannon CASPER,

-.- i.


9.

-- 




 

Phavihg'b?en first duly Sworn,-Haa examined and

 

'it?stified a: rbllows?_ ;i#i_iz5.
.33. Igvan0335- state ydur 
- I

A Gordon Caspar. a::3r::ow,

 

H111 you 
lb flu . ff'zi;

?9 And what 13 yo?r~addrcas? 

3; 10 - r2; -k-:hoh Heat g?[ill j. Q, Hr;'Caaper, you understand you are 
1? here coday undo; a gradtpor_1mmun;py but that gran?_ 

of immunity does not cover 

?befor? uni? ara?d Jury to?ay; you understa?d that? .
?ia A Correct. ag?rc hi"? :12: u: a" I
15 understand that?, 12.13;; 

3; '17 A Yea. J. ?is? :11: 

73 13 Hr._033per, you administered the test. in-

19 surance broker?s test in Chicago on March .16, 19j3?

.?20 A I did. 2: ma?:
And who accompanied you t6 Chicago?
15 22 A Mr. Freer. 

Spell his namg.

24. 7
A P-r-e~e-r. 7? nrzathJr rxw?r??

 

 

 

 

 
 

\r?qmunu "Imw?uh?p??m
OI

 

  

 

 



_Andi3hat 13 _his positign?-

A He's an examiner or the Insurance 
Examining Division,_ Examination Division.f 

And hon many testing session: did you have-

t?

q- phat day? it": erg-:3: -3 aria-:1 335x23.

 



   

:Athuo,.norn1ng and afternoon-

 

    

 

When

 

   



  
 

 

did do? max, 13 333 an :L.91r

       

 

A Hell, about a: 00,.h.30 _ue. packed the bags,.

the paper: in a bag and, bri efca:e ,type- bag} and



gone We went?back to Springfie1d on.

ybh? five-something, got in S?ringfield 8:60 or 8:30.. 
Did you gotta ?he.bff1ce of the Depart?enb .

?of Insurance in Springfield? I -

A No, we take the papers home H1th us and 6



retqrned them to the offlge on Monday morning.

       

 

Both you and Mr. Freer had tea: papers with

    

   



   

you?

      

We each book a bag, I think that day --

    

 
 

sometimes one of us took both, sometimes the other

   

one, but I remember we both took a bag.

 

      
 

What tests did you have?

    

had the dorning papers.

 

I

   

.Mr. Preer had the afternoon papers? I a


4

  

 '4 ?mum-?wi?


"mjy-ul1l I
h? t? h- 


lam '3



 

the tests that were given on the 16th? nl? - 

Mr. Robert H1113, Inon, h- was formerly an examin-19'

 

 

 

 
 
 

 

 
    
 




 

 

-Rig?Now, that test was given on a Friday, is



that correct? '2 -. -- 1 {2-1-2 -.- (-5. . 3 1-. 



-A That's true. ?3 min: 



Qf-Over the weekend did anyone contact you about:



[lg-3:1

n2? - 

-- A On Sunday morning Mr. W111: called.ma3



i- -- . 
L. 

 

and asked if Mr. Daley had taken the test _and I said.
aura he did buIt. I had the paper: there, had a
list or paper: or  11st of na me: that took :the examin-i'-;

-ation. 51 said yes he did. I .- -. iifgwf 

 

-..

 

What time of the morning wgg'thiaz"

 

donlt'know? 10:00 or 30.

  

After you told Mr. H1113 that William Daley
ad taken the best what did he may? z.:1 . 

A 19211, he said, like to come over and see

 

you", so he did. . 2.: r: :9

 

What time did he arrive?

 

 

A on, before noon.

  
    

    

he did come ha said could he look-

    

  
  

 

  
  
   



?u the paner, I said okay. So, as Janka -d at the

    

 

aue5tiun3 ?e didn?t L,

 

  
    

        

 

Illovl n? 

he ?I?d like to do a favor for a 



  

 



d?friend of mine and ?111_them in."

iPartee. 1a.

 

I said a_right, because I felt t?at it

had been done previously by other people and also

111 felt Mr. W111: got kind or a raw dea1 when they

1 let h1m_p they gave no real explanation of why

1
- 'b

-_they let him 30 other than he wasn't do1ng his

Job, which seemed kind of ridiculous, been doing

it for-four yearai :gefor;- he Kant to as: ifst?

How, when.?r. W111: said he was doingi

for a friend, did he say which friend? -Ctlt?r

A .Yea, he did. He said it wae;for Senator??



'-Uhat did he say in relatio? to Senate?

0. 
-

He said, at that time, that he was nego?H
?lth the Senator about getting another

he had more or less p?omised he'd do what?



he could on this particular paper and he was no

longer there, he came to me. -: .5
Mr. Wills said he promised Senator
Partee he?d do whatever he could for this paper?;
A That's right.

Did h? say when he had talked to Senator

was it after the test or before the test?

 

 





mosh-?111111911151M

"Ni 31

 

.10Senator talked to him. 
D1dn Agent 
7 I Yes.: He said he thooghA it coulo De tako?-H
oare of. A - 
Mr. "111: second to_ know that Mr. Daley had
done poorly on the- test- hg?nze- he wont to the teat..: 
A No, I don' believe so but he Just wanted._- - - 
-to check it And make-sure.j-' 7_ 5? 
After Mr. H1118 filled in the test --:h:955i:
A .Right. ,7 .
Q. 3r you saw him? 3~ 1 
A- Yeah, in my kitchen. 
0, All right; After he filled in the answero
Hh?tfdid he do? a2: g2: 
A ?He gave me baok the test and?I_puD it Agf
the bag -5 well, he checked it first_and :?figured
that he had a passing grade, so, we put it back in
?tbe bag and I took it in the office Monday morning.
When did you grade that test?
A I would say ?oaa??aa that week, maybe it
was later, I?m not #00 paper; invoived
:5 I thing 92 have ano?hor-tfip doyn south that week,
$0
. 

  



IM

A I shortly after he got fired he said

 

 

 

- '- ..-. . -
. - . .


  
 

I didn't get to them Lntil the next week-
When Was the next time you talked to Mr.r
Hills about this test? I

A I  don't really know.": I know that he said-

5 ?he told the Senegpr_that 1t?naawall taken can: o?g?
6: _Ybu remember when he told ?on t?at he hag I 
talked to Sensing Partee?. - - I
A- Probahiy the following week, 'I_th1nk.
Q. Did he he. talked to the Senator 1n
_10j f?person pr on- the phone? . .j -j  
?11; A He didn't say but I think it was nronably
?13 on the phone, -I'm not sure. I I
- -Than, after that, when was the next time'
Ah gou saw Mr; H11i3?-
15 . I Oh; I don't know, I seen him from time to.
15 time. we are still friendly, still get tagether
17

once and awhile. :q - I



 

 

   

?13 When the the
19 test brbke in the paper this year did you talk-
wiih Mr; H1113 about the test?
I 3? . A -Yes, we did 1 .
31': Q. What-d%d you talk about?
#5 I A Well, we felt that there was nothing-t5
3; i! warry about, 3. 
??gil

  

1% d1dn' think about that,

11ke Hr. Daley' 3 handwriting. 

spite of the

11:: What did Mr.

 

 

 

A Well, he had experienced some-concern,-

5 naturally, so. he talked to the

 

 

- ?luv?m



I

Why is that?

A Hell, that the test h_ad been graded and --



difference in handwr1t1ng. I

but it looked pretty much

Hills say in rolatiou teat. .-. '5 to I 

Senator again.

 

"2 g.'And when was this? . -

A I don't know, that came up_a year later,.?

didn't it? - 
Yes. .. I - .. 

A After the exan1hation. 5

don?t knoy, seven, eight months, when?'/

_e?er it hit the newspapers; . 

0 What did he talk to the Senator about?

. I

A He said what do We do, I guano, and the
word was Just take it easy, play it cool. 9 :2
What do you mean by play it cool?
A Just go along with the tide and say that
things ?are alright.

0 Bid Mr. Hills tell you that the Senator

I



him that?

told

 

- minim"; '91: -. ?l?h'l'uhl?h

mm -

 



12

15:13

Mr

15




43



 

 

 

 

Mr. Mills received subpoena: to appear here before

this Grand Jury? 3127i: ~f 51::

on thamnannz;an&21 graded it.-i; 3q29.?round and

4

~t e?sy and deny everything. - 

.
A Yes.1 r? 

All right. What occurred when you and

H211, then, he did get 
How did you get worried? 122; 

was bothered becauae_my initi?ls were

Did anyonb-from the Senator's office come

to conbact you?



me. 3;;,r3 
Did they contact Mr; Wills? - o*

believe so, but I am not sure,


What did Mr. Mills 3232*



'0

He said the same thing as befor- Jus? take

Q. He told you to deny everything? 
A Yeah. .. 

Hell, where was that that he told you to deny

everything?

i?


 

A Well, either coming up on the plane or prior

5 snat.

You came up on a plane? . 

YeahCyua?mfmn 

U'a . 



 

. the: I graded 1t and despite he different 1nk,th13I

 

 

 

'I?m?h _n??nn .





- munDid- you ta1Ik about this oIn the p1ane?_



A Uh 2;2;1;2 I
what we:_ the conversation on the plan19"
A 9e11, the conversation was hopefully that

:e had nothing to worry about and-Jus_t te11 a LatoyaL

 

happened many.t1nes because people don? answer the .

 

questions consecutively and they Jump around and

I
Very possibly he could have run out of Ione cIolor andw . 

n? 

. 3 -
used another.. 



I
{After you and Mr. W111: teat1r1ed before Ithe}
IGrend Jury d1d Mr. "1115 mention the  test either on 
your way home or while you were here in Ch1cego? -

I A Yeah, he mentioned, We both mentioned Ii:
It was a little roogh in front of _the Grand Jurv -3
and thought that He had come out all right. I said/'
I certainly didn't want to'11e and they didn't 
think I had.? -- 

Did you talk to Mr. Mills when he Rae, soon
after he Was indict?d? I
1 Yes, I d1d._ 1 made it a point toIgo over
to his house. He?e been recently ma rried and I 

met his wife once or tw1ce,_

30, I felt that if that had happened to

 




3 7 his story, admit th1s, that if I was calIedI 



U0



.h

 

- . I


.- 

 

r9.

have to tell the truth that.- saw him wr1te the

. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

. a.
. . I1-- I?gwl?lthQ-u-vu. . ..


 

A. ":11 7'

him I'd probably 3. called back again. .

So, I tried_ to prevail Inpan him ts change_

- 1'

questions in and 1_e_t h1m do 

9- What did Mr. "1113 say? 

pr 

?e11, he said he was going to talk to his 

lawyer. East?Kandag? .7 I. j;V5
Did he tell: you th? _name or-t'he liner"

. 
A No, he did In?ow name or the lawyer

 



A I assume, and I am pretty_ceftai?. 1t wa3;;gf?

3-.

senator Partee} - . - . fin" . 

did Mr. H1113 say if Senator Partee

was 931138 for his lawyer? i; 13:52





..-.

A no; he did not.
0 Is Mr. Hills in a position to afford an

attornCY? . a- :9 a

A H13 ?ife has a lot of moneyt.

?ow, after you told Mr. Hills that you Here
going to tell the truth 

IA Yeah.

he said he was going to get-back go the

 

 

 

-Hho got him his_ lawyer? I - 


. ?l

  

QTSeaator? 

Did you.taik to him again after,that?lgjiy

 

 

 

 

 

 

TrieA5_R;ght.
A I did. - a 322-2,
And when was that?
in what?s today -- today is Thursday, I came

up yesterday 4? Monday.

This last Monday??

Yes, this Monday, this week. it >15
?4 would that be the 13th? 

A
9

Yeah. 2' 

What was the conversatioh that day?
A I said that I was going up and that I
has going to tell the truth and he said,VI?ve
got a lawyer" or "We'll have one tonight."

I said, can?t wait much longer, I am

. 

going up.
'47 I couldn't hear that because of the truck.
a I said that he said that he had a lawyer,
he would know who it was and meet with him then.
And I said you better hurry because I'm going up
tonight -- not tonight, beg your pardon, the next
day. I
Did he say whether he had talked to the


~v

16turf 

. 

  

.- la a" If yi?y??flgu?l ?Wha??wy'ddl?iwvm . . 



?c 

h-

,Itjr'lh want 

.
5:4 

 



. . .. .
:?fisanator? 

        

11think he did talk to him by phone .p

?r'l



And what did the Senator tell h1n? .fezj 



A The Senator said, according to Hills, 1 ?7 

that nothing to worry about, take it easyYes, I did.? -: iELi a . . r.


I.

lAnd when Has that? 1 .

A Tuesday, game up yesterday, 39, it was 

"fr-3' . 
I ?4 

5.1: L.



_ruesdgymt; Lf.

rug luth or May?

A Yes,'yeah.



i


:?7?g?1wvme

Roi did you try and contact the Senator?





A Well, a friend of mine worked for him a 

I
.1 

v!

man named Park. 80,11 called him and he said



,that they are in session and he said that he would

a

get a message to the Senator and get back in tench

f?f'ldl

with me. . 1





I 

Mr. Park, P?a-r-k?

- .u


3 A P-a-r-k. ?3

.


0 What's his first name?



A His first name is Don.

?94- '61- n' v!

And he is employed by Senator-Parteenight.? - 

 

 



in?v'vl 

 
 

 

 

 

  
 

  

   
    
 
 
     

,im
l?i'1' 
#112 -

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 


Q- Did the Senatbr get badk to you?
No

telephone number to call and a name.

Swl?fQ What was the name? 
I:  Attorney in Chicago, Mat Walsh

A
What did Mr. ark say? - a:
A-

Senator gave me this number to give you,

Ilcall this man before 1Q: 00 at night.~ 

Did Mr. Park tell you whaE Ea say to Eh



Grand Jury EodayJun vae-.-
. 
. 

 Mr. Park got back to me and gave me?-



He didn't ask you to play along or 

A 'Nd, he seemed to think that the lawyer

would giv__e me the information when I called to

to him how to proceed.

Had yOu told Mr. Park that you were going to

tell the truth up here? 51. .. 
.A Yes. u; . 



.1

All right. Did you call that attorney?

yes, I did.

myself and I said "I?ve got to go early in the morning"

I said Just wanted you 50 know, Wills lawyer,

assuMe you are going to be Wills lawyer"

he said ?3e59, I am not certain "that I was going to

talk

I spoke Eo-him and identified

I

?and I believe

 

 

 

       

. "?llk?i 

If!" Th W?J?zwi?rt? dnl?mhl {gammy



 

4

  
     

- I wen-2! .-. annular-- 917.. 
. 5" 3mm. {?lm 1' '4 

 
 






 
    
  
 

   

I 0



 
  

I

nuwm . 1x.- 31mm;

 

  
   
      
    

  



   



   

  

    
 
 
 

  

 
 

if?tg;i t?e truth.? 7
What did he say?'

A: He said, "Hell; if that's the way-you feel

I

I


a:

i
1

about it"; I said, "1'11 try not to mentioh the?

?_Be said, "All right, go ahead, do what you

?an: .L I *2 3.1? 
. ,7 Has anybody contacted?you at.all yesterday
Ii - I . 
0; today? 
-A 3? and 333625

Did Mr; H1113 ever mention to you thet-Hr.
Hall knew that he had changed Ehe Daley teeb?

A No, he didn't.

How, whee did you leave the Department ofInsurance?

u, .A- Friday, May 13, 1973 hprii 

Did you contact Senator Parbee and attempt

 

to get a position in State Government?

A Ha, I did not. He already helped Mr. Hills,

50, thought he'd done his share.

rlu

nun?I
?u?we vu- urn-un-

Who did you contact? . 
A Hell, 1 contacted several people.

?he were they? . . ?a

One of whi?h is a?frlend of mine, Mr. Shea,

:30

 

 

Senator's name but I don?t see how it can be helped;"

13h

3i

 

  

I

m?w?gL

1A?a?f1?I

'1 .

Wk?iiw?'?w?'i?'sx?f

"I?lnl I, .

 

rial-?d .

3 


rm; .

Weass?-im-MWQW

I mu.? 

  

   

 

 

 

 

 

res sentative Shea.

 

fig?   spell that.r :1
3-h-e?a? I think it _13 :1 17:. 3 11?" :1 l: . 'hj

Q- Did you tell Mr. Shea you had changed that
-5 ?est? - .7: 
A. No} he nevar asked'me, I don't think.Jerry i
i; knew what I?did Up therg.
g1 4 who else did addei?tai?t to -   
?get a position? -Pglziu gaz? 3., 2M



m' of Mr. 5323's and mine,

 

I 13 a private attorngy. x: 1?
Spell his name. 1
3. A c?O-n?e. 1 u;?ab
Anyone ?lse?apA tI'm sure there were others, I tried a lot 
a ?55 place: but I can't think pf any 59801f1? names, . i 
I Did you tail any of them about the test? 1
3 A Tell what? - 
. Did you tell any of them about the Daley
test? fg 
r. not at that; time, not until it came up later.
All right. Who did you tell later?

 

VI


i; .
1' 39" Cone who is a friend of mine as well as
355638139   

  
 

 

 



test to you? . f.

A tNo; that had occurred about a your or tde'* 5:
before that, didn't it? I'm not sure about my dates, E:
I wasn-t in that ?articuiar division, at that time.. 3;
They never mentioned it to you at all? i;

A Not that I recall. g:

-0thcr than the Senator Partee's staf?_did' E:
.anyone else try to contact you about xo?t.ta??1?gpx?_ . - .3:
about you testifying here the first time? . :2
No; no, I'm sure.they think of. 
anybody. J. 
Anybody tri and contact you from March 20th 

 

 

    

. . 

Anyon? else?? f' 

 

  
 
  

No, I don' beiieve so, .to my knowledge.

   
 
 

You know 1?.Hr. Ron. Cone told anyone about

   

it? - -. atanvg is~ -7 

No, he didnit;

 
  
   

_D1d Mr. Hi11s'ever?mentiog that John Patrick

  

 

  

 
   
        
       
     
  
   
     
  
 
 

until today?other than Senator Partee?

  

.1

A Nenpapers, 

anyone else in State GOVernment?
A No.

Mr.

Did Hills ever mention whether William

Daley had asked Partee for help on the test?

u. 'k 

 

'i-i "4 

 

 

 

{12

. '1 




glo-

3n.

?11



17



19

20

*ew5?a-n-;

uh.

we-

because-of what he did.on the test?

 

 

. .

A He never mentioned it.

Did nr. H1113 ever say that he got his Job

No, he didn't you mean his present Job 

.1- 


no, I'm sure he felt that it helped.

IAVARONB: Any member: or the Grand Jury

.1-
.

have any questions? . ?1-1 1 3

A Mr. Casper, you said that you thought

it was all right to help Mr. H1115 change the teeg

because you knew it had been done other times. a

A I f?lt that it had been done many times.

A JUROH:

Can you tell us of any-other specific~

occasions that you knew that had been done?

No, I can't be that specific. After being

there six years you get kind of a ree1 about it and

everything.was toe secret between the bosses, one

hand didn't know what the other was doing. I always

felt that that had been going on for some time.

A JUROR:

DO you ever know or any occasions or

have you ever been told of any occasions when Ann

Shotzs had possibly changed a test for someone or

helped them pass?

A No, I don?t know or any specific occasions.

A JUROR:

Had you heard'rumors to tnis?

1.. g. (T.



?If? 1-1.. 

I.

. 3! Ir,



1..







    

 
 

V?any kind of examination at a11 there' 3 

'7rumors that somebody's getting something for

 

  
 

.B

  

 

 

    

   

 

 

A Heard ru?ors all'ine time 1h-tha? r1?1a,l 

   

  
 

     
 

  

  
 
  
 

'_noth1ng or getting passed when he shouldn't. r?

There?s always rumors.

    
    

 

   

JUROR: Hg.zcasper,,dur1ng your year?_orf. 

   

,test1ng.1? thig the only_occaaion you have-iat-

  
 

someone come in tb fix a test paper?-

      
 

A Yes, it has but let me correctglou, I didn?t

  

I was put in there,-oneg

 

grade papers very,1bng.'

  
  

man died avg then they promo?ed Mr; Hills} 30, I:



       

kind because Will? was a

  
 



.friend of yours?

  
   
    
   
  

A Yes, really, I_fe1t he gotten a bad deal.

 

.Qr Wha? Has'your relationship

   

HR. IAVAROHE:

  
  

with Mr. 5311? ,9 e,?h 



 

 

'1 "all. .

 

5 "at too friendly. 5 :1 

      

Why was that?

 
  

A well, I don't know, we Just didn?t seem to

      

5" 

33: along too good. 1 

     
 

Did Mr. {a1l ever te11 you you were doing a

   

9.

poor JobAbout every year when he fills'out these - 


. A 

saItvy?
.. 

5j?e kept me from getting two, threg raises that ar?

be automaci?_reports he mak?h some remarks to that extent, yeah.

'H?hat wast-1r. H1145 relationshipwith Mr. Hall?

.
un- --p?uunw?u-?o 

A ?The? were very friendly. 
Did Mr. Wills ever mention to you Mr. ?ail 
.83: making $50.00 payment: to'him?, s?39 I
V: $110.; 25.5.. L223: ta: T.
was Mr. Freer}; rqlationship with Mrf?=?
Ha;1? 1:13 a;3as HJJ (4:313; :hg itt?g'
1A All- right, friendly eno?ghr. I 
Hr. Wills and Mr. Pretrifnien?ly?
A Yes; the? traveled tOgebher a gre?t degl pf
the 151,518. "3 1 ?1,533- 
- You know if Ereer ever cha?gcd a 
71 don't know ihat he ever did, I have no
reason to believe t?at he ever did. 
Do you know an individual by the name of
Vaccarrello293. I 
He was in the Department of Insurance?
A Yes, he came in, I think, shortly after the
Cglivie administration. 

0- Did Mr.,Wiils know Mr 



:2



nu 
'II-Irrlnmm-"m? urn-nonv-


 

 

 

 

 

get along pretty well.-

A Mr. Hills had-come shortly before Vaccarrello-
but he knew him, of course. In fact they seemed ton


. . 
Jv?o 

- 

_You know 1: Mr. H1113 ever received'any?phon?t:
calls or messages from Mr. Vaccaerello re~ard1ng teets?
A I'm sure he did because at the time they had

numerous problems, mostly in Cook County,.w1th sone_

?newer companies and they 

for special examination for some of these people. So,

naturally H1113 was running the examination unit at

that time. So, Mr; Vaccerrello and Mr. Hall both

italked to him a lot about planning this.? 3 

You khan-1f they talked about specific tests?

A You mean specific lndivlduals? -

23?7 JD, 

A I don't believe so.? I-think 1t was more
general, maybe six people, ten people, twelve people
at a time. - .h?ll 9? 

Would they take those tests, have the six
or ten people into Mr. Hallie office?

3 Yeah, sometimes they did. i} -L-

You know For what purpose?

A Well, these people had a training program

and think it was Mr. Huber, well Mr. Huber after

aw.

1? 

. .. .
yum.-F:

I

r'ivw M'H?ax? I '5 uninirrjy '3 '1'va I

I-



IS

IS

29



 

manner: nun-van

 

 

 

Vacearreilo have gone, that he came, the: took
these to check to see if these men had learned
anything. There were young people off the streets
who- never had any formal business training- and they
did check those companies, they:were usualiy agency
examinations and they checked those pretty thorongh.i
As a matter of fact Mr. wills was wined and7y
dined by these people, wasn't he?

A Yes. 1 "ii -: visa Ltute

-How often?. ?a wri?- :wtrere :5 that?

.Heil; on a period of a year or so so many or
the big life companies went in the fire and casuafty
company Prudential has 1,000 agents or better in
Illinois, we have no facilities to give the examin?
ations for that many people, so, these companies
with their own office buildings, amphitheaters or
examination centers or something, space to give the
examination. 30, all expenses created was paid by
the company to the department. In other words, they
paid Wills' room and board and meals and travel
expenses rather than having the State do it in return
for a special examination. .. a

0 Did anybody ever ask you for a campaign

contribution while you Here With the Department of

 

 

.

-

'r

I



?n-I
'd?bi


41w". -

 

.-. 

 

4InsuranceDid anybody ?ver ask you for a Lint?n? 

and agent?_for campaign 
Hr. Ruben-asked me to make up 3.1183;
of some of the_qore promihent brokers apd agents

in bh? mid-state area, Springfield, Blod?in?toh, 

-.

-..





Degatug. i;

And_what did you do with the list?



A He Was going to write letters to them, - 

 

?soliciting fund5._ {my

 

 

?2 Did he? ?nai?f-tzt.

A _That I don't know. 

. ,Did he ever Ask you to solicit fu?d5.from

5 those people? 1. f? Qui??if- 

5 .
'r NO, he didn't. - 'v?J?rnDid Mr. Tickner ever ask you to raise money?
5
A lion . I . . 
I 
#33 Mr. Hall well known among the State
ngislatorb? . 
A Well, he got to be well known because head of
I
I I
tna Llcense Division ?ne State Legislators constantly

I 4. I 4? 9
cal;ing on banal; of one of ?nely constituents and
is 
3 . .
ask;ng to Rely, witnin reason, to what we could help

:5 


Iv?v?u.

 

 

 

 


3



 
 

 

them, a man g?t a license and so forth. Naturally

?a

Icalls, particularly when the lomislature was



I.

Dho 
'-in?session, got a lot of phone calls.
Do you know if Hr..?ills; s;noe March 15,

t'to

k. 

1973, ever asked anyone else in th2_departmen



help someone on a test?

A Not that I know of, you know, after he leftask anybody?

.



Yes.

Not that I know of.

. ?a
'u I 

How about before you_1?ft?

Hell, I?don?t kuow of any then either.

4

.. -. 

MR. IAVARONE: Any questions??

A JURCR: I'm only interestgd in koo?ing how

is it, what is it in terms or what you know, Senator

would do anything on behalf of Williom Daley,

   

:39
v?I

t.



?1




relationship? I 4.

what is the

A That is something I can't answer, I don?t

I don't know. I mean, could have been any


xacw,

paper, maybe, but happened to be Mr.

Sam Jones?

    

?aiey's paper.

1-1

A JUROR: Was that the only paper that had any-

thin done that day to it, was the Daley test, sir?

r-
.a


I.

 



don't have any others, no.

 

A

    

 



Now, do you know it'll?; 111113

- - .
1:33? a! 32:31?? WEI

tcalied up Mr. Freer to see 1f.he had the Daley test?
khOH, no. He'called'me and I-
the-morning papers, I.dpn?t know ah: i had them,
:1 cbuid have had the-afiernoon, but I di?nl?, i I
had the morning papers.
'-D1d Mz+ Hall ask you for the Dagey test? 
I don't know whether it was Mr. Hall 9? Mr.;

I
1

one of the two did. I think it was Huber;/j
'Did you give him the test? A
Yes. 

?Did they say anything lo you? .
No, gave it back and said okay. 
And when was ahis?
After the well, after the newspaper

about Hell Hell Agency, whenever that_was.

They didn't mention to you any different

 

handwriting?

 

A Did?'t say a Word.

And this was in '73?

 

3 Yeah.

 

And did you know if Mr. Hall looked at the

test, at that time?

A I I?m'not posiEIVe but I feel that he did