COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA
STATE GOVERNMENT AD HOC COMMITTEE
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
In re:

Sunset Review
State Athletic Commission
* * * * *

Stenographic report of hearing
held in Majority Caucus Room,
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania
Thursday
June 11, 1987
9:30 a.m.
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HON. FRANK L. OLIVER, CHAIRMAN
HON. MARVIN E. MILLER, JR., MINORITY CHAIRMAN
MEMBERS OF STATE GOVERNMENT AD HOC COMMITTEE
Hon. Robert L. Freeman
Hon. Gordon J. Linton

Also Present;
Hon.
Hon.
Hon*
Hon*

Thomas C. Corrigan,. Sr.
George C. Hasay
Vincent Hughes
Jere W. Schuler

Stanley Mitchell, Chief Counsel

D o r o t n 4 M - M « l one
Registered Professional Reporter
135 S -

LanJis Street

Hommelstown, Pennsylvania

17036

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 INDEX
PAGE
James J. Binns, Chairman
State Athletic Commission

3

Richard R. Baer, Commissioner
State Athletic Commission

77

Linda McMahon, Executive Vice-president
Titan Sports, Inc.

82

Robert Robbins.
Middle Atlantic Amateur Union

123

Russell Peltz, Boxing Promoter

136

Newton Tattrie, Retired Wrestler/Coach

145

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 THE CHAIRMAN:
order.

Good morning.

This meeting will now come to

Today we have the Sunset Review hearing

on the State Athletic Commission.

We do have an agenda here.

Our first speaker this morning will be the present and former
officers of the State Athletic Commission.

The Chairman,

James J. Binns, will be the first speaker. Mr. Binns, you may
proceed, sir.

I understand you do not have prepared testimony.

MR. BINNS: That is correct, Mr. Chairman. Mr.
Chairman, I am here to answer whatever questions this
Committee may have with respect to the audit that was
performed by the Sunset Audit Committee.

I have spoken with

your legal counsel and advised him that I would be prepared to
answer whatever questions any member of the Committee might
have or whatever questions Mr. Dario might have with respect
to the audit that was performed.
THE CHAIRMAN:

Would you be prepared to make an

opening statement prior to questions from any members of the
Committee?
MR. BINNS: Not unless the Chair pleases.
THE CHAIRMAN:
the members?

Are there any questions from any of

Mr. Mitchell.

BY MR. MITCHELL:
Q

Prior to the members making questions, Mr.

Chairman, I will just ask a couple of questions of Mr. Binns.
Perhaps you are familiar with the issue regarding the

 professional wrestling, matter?
A

I am.

Q

The matter of Titan Sports.

the Committee your views in that regard?

Could you provide for
And, of course, I

understand, Mr. Chairman, that Titan Sports will be providing
testimony themselves.

So, we are sort of jumping the gun, but

if HT. Binns would be so kind to provide at the outset the
Commission's views regarding professional wrestling.
A

Yes, sir. Mr. Chairman and members, it is the view

of the Athletic Commission, the unanimous view, that
professional wrestling should be regulated within the
Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

We understand that the

representatives and officers of Titan Sports are here today
to request that this Committee take under advisement the
releasing of professional wrestling from the aegis of the
Pennsylvania Athletic Commission.
The reason that we feel as a Commission, and this
is the unanimous view, that wrestling should continue to be
regulated is that it is necessary, in our view, for someone,
preferably the State Athletic Commission to oversee

the

.1

health, safety and welfare of the wrestlers who are engaged
in the professional sport of wrestling.

And in addition to

that, it is necessary for the Athletic Commission to regulate
what is required for the health, safety and welfare of the
public who attend these matches. And X may say that wrestling .

 is alt an all-time high with respect to its popularity.

And

accordingly we have, in the various venues throughout the
state, instances where 15 to 20,000 people per event attend
a professional wrestling show.

Now, when I speak of the

health, safety and welfare of the wrestlers, it has come to our
attention that in the past, professional wrestlers, in order
to earn more money have engaged in the practice of flicking
their foreheads with razor blades in order to draw blood to
excite the crowd.
We have, as a Commission, taken a position in
Pennsylvania that that is no longer allowed.

This position

was not accomplished without some degree of hostility on the
part of both wrestlers and promoters. However, it is a fact
that if any member of the Committee would like to accompany me
to a wrestling show, I could demonstrate to you by physical
examination of the wrestlers, that

they have engaged in this

practice in the past and in fact continue to engage in it in
states other than the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

We take

the position that it is dehumanizing to permit or cause a
professional athlete to do that to himself in an effort to
earn more money and we continue to do that.
We have had instances where I have directed a
doctor to examine wrestlers immediately after they have cut
themselves with razor blades, and in at least one instance,
the wrestler refused and we had to confront the promoter with

 the prospect of closing his show down on that spur of the
moment unless he submitted to the examination by the physician,
and there were written reports evidencing this. We continue to
incur problems with wrestlers coming in from other states
already having cut themselves a day or two before and then
having the cut opened up.

But we have a policy that if they

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continue to do that, we suspend them and I have done that in
the past.

It. seems to be clearing the problem up.
In addition to that, there are the pre-bout

physicals that are conducted by physicians who are licensed by
the State Athletic Commission and who routinely examine both
professional boxers, amateur boxers and professional
wrestlers as part of their duties and they are paid to do
this. And some of those physicians are, or rather will become
members of the Medical Advisory Board once: it is implemented by
Governor Casey.
With respect to the health, safety and welfare of
the citizens of our Commonwealth, it is no secret that when you
have 20,000 people in venue anything can happen, especially
when, as is the case in Pennsylvania, alcholic beverages are
permitted to be sold on the premises.

There is nothing wrong

with that. We consider wrestling to be good family
entertainment.

We discourage rowdyism.

When it occurs, we

encourage the security staff at the venue to eject the people
who.are guilty of the rowdy conduct and to go further and have

 them arrested if it is warranted.

We see nothing wrong with

the sale and consumption of alcholic beverages so long as it
is kept to a modicum and it is not something that gets out of
hand.
There have been instances and there continue rathex
to be instances of feigned violence where certain, an
undesirable element of the fan populus will throw objects
intq the ring.

Their latest trick, if you will, was to throw

in a rock the size of your hand at the wrestlers and this
occurred at the Civic Center two weeks ago. We are dealing
with that problem rather and

I have scheduled a meeting in

my office with not only the head of all of the Philadelphia
police who attend these events, but also the officers at the
t

higher echelon of Spectacor Corporation and Spectaguard
Corporation who provide the security forces at the Spectrum in
Philadelphia, the Civic Center in Philadelphia and the
Pennsylvania Hall, and they have responded.
I dare say that without the input of a commissioner
who has the power of the state behind him to take and grant
sanctions that that would not occur.

That you would have, if

you "will, the good old boy system of live and let live and
let's just see what we can do to get beyond this problem.

We

deal with the problem swiftly, we deal with the problem
deliberately and we think that we serve a real benefit to the
populus of the state of Pennsylvania.

 For those two main reasons, I would suggest that it
woulfi be unthinkable to deregulate professional wrestling in
the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

I have read the prewritten

testimony of the representative of Titan Sports where they say
certain states have deregulated boxing.

That may be true, but

that! doesn't make it good for our Commonwealth.

There are

certain states, a number of them don't have boxing commissions
and they are the states where you have the greatest problem
with respect to fighters being knocked out repeatedly, fighters
being allowed to participate more than one bout in a week,
sometimes more than one bout in a day.

I dare say, given a

free hand and a free hfead that the same would occur with
respject to professional wrestling.

We have it to a point now

where we treat the promoters with dignity.

We have dignified

the wrestlers themselves even against their own wishes and they
have come to not only appreciate it but to make public
statements on radio and in the press that they are proud to
come to Pennsylvania and they are proud afttotft the way they are
treated here. Whether or not they can get another hundred or
$150 for giving juice, and that is what it is called in the
tra4e, so I am not making up something that isn't a
time-honored method of doing business in wrestling
communities.

To get juice, you get another hundred to $150

and,it goes from the very lowest of the wrestlers in the
ratings to the very highest.

We don't permit it.

And that is

 a major, major factor that you should take into consideration,
I think, with respect to your decision as to whether or not
wrestling would be deregulated.
Q

Mr. Chairman, if I may.

I guess my concern now

is based upon your information provided to the Committee.
Do you believe honestly that wrestling is a competitive
sport?
A

It is not, sir. Wrestling is an exhibition.
If I may direct your attenton to the Athletic

Code, Mr. Mitchell, you will see the differentiation between
the verbage that is used in connection with boxing and that
which is used in connection with wrestling.
contest.

Wrestling is not a contest.

Boxing is a

It is an exhibition.

It. is meant for the entertainment of the fans who come.
Whether or not the winner or loser is predetermined is
unimportant to how the exhibition is carried out.

It is the

way and manner in which the exhibition is carried out that
leads to the fan entertainment.

And the. only item that we

have to quarrel with at this point is the intentional
cutting of one another and one's self with razor blades or
other sharp objects.
In addition to that, Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Chairman, let me assure that we also control whether or not people
throw chairs into the ring, that is wrestlers, which they do if yoi
are not there and whether or not they throw other objects or use otb er

 objects on one another in an effort to heighten the performance
of the exhibition.
Q

Mr. Binns, what type of guidelines do you have to

control the cutting with the razor blade and/or throwing of
objects into the ring?

The Audit Report, if I may go on, Mr.

Chairman, briefly sets forth that oftentimes the Commission is
top-heavy with deputy commissioners and I am just wondering
whether you have enforcement capability to control the cutting
with razor blades, throwing of rocks. And you yourself stated
that: it is not a competitive sport.

I guess my primary

question, Mr. Chairman, is whether or not the promoters
themselves could not deal with the issue at hand in terms of
controlling professional wrestling.

Whether or not you have

the capability to control professional wrestling or regulate
it.

And I guess that is my question.
A

The answer to that question is very simple.

The

promoters themselves would not and could not control it
because it is in their interest to have it happen.

It is they

who are the direct beneficiaries of the heightened performance,
if you will, and it is completely controlled by the Athletic
Commission because we grant or refuse to grant the sanctions
for:;that show.
What I have done is told them that we will refuse
to grant sanctions for the show if it continues. We have'
suspended the boxers on the spot —

I mean the wrestlers don't

 do it again.

I misspoke when I said boxers.

wrestlers don't do it again.

So that the

So, without the intervention of

the State Athletic Commission there would be absolutely no
control. It would be a wild west arena.
Q

My final question, Mr. Chairman.

What is your view

of the various states that have deregulated professional
wrestling?
A

I don't know what you mean by my view.

Q

Your view of that.

A

I disagree with them.

Q

You have nothing to add in that regard?

A

No.
MR. MITCHELL:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

BY CHAIRMAN OLIVER:
Q

I know you have one wrestler who has a tendency to

bring a snake in the ring with him.

Why do you allow something

like this?
A

Well, to this time it has not proven, Mr. Chairman,

to be dangerous.

It is once again, it. is simply an

acoutrement of the show.

It is no different than a ballerina

wearing a tutu that would be cut too low.
Q

You say it hasn't been proven to be dangerous.

What if that snake got away?
A

Well, I can't disagree with you.

I mean, if a

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snake got away and bit somebody, it would be dangerous. But

 the snake seems to be a friendly type, Mr. Chairman, and he
has been around for a long time.

In fact, he even has a name.

And I am embarrassed to tell you that I don't know.
would.

My son

Damieh is the snake's name.
Q

If .he seems so friendly, Would you allow him

to

sleep in bed with you at night?
,

A

No, sir.. I'll tell you what.

I wouldn't allow

Gorilla Monsoon to sleep in bed with me either and he's
friendly.
(Laughter.)
Q

I have often wondered about that and if that snake

did get away, whose responsibility would that be?
A

It would be the responsibility of the promoter and

the owner of the venue and they would be liableLin damages, ;
sir  for whomever the shake" injured.
;

Q

As far as you are concerned being the Chairman,

you would not assume any responsibility for that?
A

Do you mean legally, sir, do I think the state

would be liable?
Q

Yes.

A

I can't say it jwouldn't be", no~."~ And if you felt

that that would be something else that we would have to
curtail, I would certainly follow your lead.
Q

Well, positively, I really feel that way.

I think

it is dangerous. You don't know what that snake might do,
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 who he night bite if he should get away.
A

I. can't disagree with you, Mr.. Chairman.

Q

I think that should be stopped.

Another thing, Mr.

v
Chairman, some of the things you said like as far as using
razor blades on themselves.

real.

A

Yes, sir.

Q

I mean, I watch wrestling and to me it seems so

So, actually, in a sense, that is misleading as far as

the public is concerned.
A

That is true.

Q

I think that is wrong also.

A

Well, so do I.

Q

Even today, presently, I see these wrestlers

That is why I stopped it.

picking up chairs and things and hitting one another on the
head.
A

That's not real. .

Q

That is not real?

A

No, sir.

Q

It is misleading also.

A

Well, it is misleading but it is kind of the same

type of misleading that you and I may have encountered when we
went to the Saturday matinee and saw whomever the hero was
being beaten for 90 minutes of the movie and then in the last
ten minutes, he would come on with the cavalry at his back
and he would be victorious.

 Q

In your.honest opinion, if the general public was

aware of this, do you think that you would still have 15,000
people like you mentioned earlier attending these shows if
they were really aware of this?
A

I think so because I think they crave the

entertainment, Mr. Chairman.

Some of them view it

tongtie-in-cheek and there are others who believe as though it
were the written word of the Lord.

But I think that even if

it were to be exposed for everything that it is, that it would
still be an attraction to the people who hunger for
entertainment, the type of people who don't like to go to
movies but like to see and live vicariously through the eyes
of a 350 pound wrestler.

I must tell you this, Mr. Chairman,

these wrestlers are superb athletes.

They do things with the

human body that you cannot imagine and don't hurt themselves.
They wrestle seven days a week, some of them, and they go from
city to city and they do absolutely marvelous gymnastics and
don't hurt themselves.

Sometimes there is a misstep and

someone is hurt, but by and large, it is a wonderful thing for
people to watch.
Q

So long as it is controlled.

Since we know that some of these things are really

misleading, for an example, let's take the consideration if
there was a match taking place next Saturday.

Would you know

in advance who is going to be the winner of that match?
A

;

Would I, no, sir.

 Q

Would anybody know?

A

I cannot honestly answer that question, sir, but

to be honest with you, it would defy belief that somebody
doesn't know, yes.
Q

As far as professional boxing is concerned, then

if it was leaked out that something like that happened, this
would be a fixed fight?
A

Boxing?

Q

Boxing, yes, illegal and somebody possibly could

go to jail because of it.
A

No, not possibly, probably.

Q

All right.

So, if that applies as far as boxing

is concerned, it should also apply, in my opinion, as far as
wrestling is concerned.
this! does exist.
A

I have been told, Mr. Chairman, that

This does exist.

I'm not disagreeing with you.

I'm saying it would

defy/ imagination to believe that it does not exist.

But the

difference, Mr. Chairman, is, you must go back to the operative
words, contest versus exhibition. Whoever wins an exhibition
doesn't matter because it is only a exhibit.

It is an

exhibition of an art form and this art form is that of
professional wrestling.

And people who go to professional

wrestling know all of the dramatis personae and they follow
them on a weekly, sometimes daily "basis, "Yrbm^eriuefto"yenue^_j
There is a soap opera created, if you will, between the wife

 of Randy Macho Man Savage and George the Animal Steele who
covets her and has her picture ripped up so he is infuriated
I

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and places it back together.

It is a funny, funny scenario,

if you are into it and there are millions of Americans who are.
Q

The only thing that really bothers me, and I have

some, personal friends who really crave wrestling.
A

They would not believe you if you told them what 1

just told you.
Q

They would believe me if I told them some of the

things that have been told to me and also some of the things
you have said here this morning.
A

They won't believe you.

Q

Which is a matter of record.

A

They won't believe you.

Q

Yes they will.

A

Well, it is the same as trying to convince a

five year old there is no Santa Claus. It is that simple.
They won't believe you.

I don't want to disillusion you, but
i

I want to be there when you tell them.

And if they ask me, if

they say, is that true and if I just give them the slightest
reason to doubt you, they will say that is not true. You may
think it is, but we know it is real.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Representative Miller.

REPRESENTATIVE MILLER:
BY REPRESENTATIVE MILLER:

Thank you, Chairman Oliver.

 Q

Commissioner Binns, you are aware of the process

certainly that we are undertaking today and that is the
beginning of the Sunset Review procedure?
A

Yes, I am.

Q

One of the traditional requirements of that law,

as I hope you are aware, is to require that the appropriate
agency undergoing Sunset Review have its chief executive
officer, in this case you, come before the Committee and make
a formal recommendation as to whether we ought to continue its
existence or not.
With respect to the fact that you do not have
written testimony today to recommend that, I might, for the
record, ask you, should we continue with the State Athletic
Comnjission?
A

Yes, sir.

I am happy to answer that question.

Incidentally, I was not aware that written testimony was
preferred or required.

Had I been so aware, I would have

certainly provided you with something.
Let me say to you that there is no question in my
mind that the continuation of the Pennsylvania Athletic
Commission is warranted and is a real necessity.

We have a

very prolific base of professional boxing and certainly
professional wrestling as well as amateur boxing.

I believe

that; the citizens of the Commonwealth are well served by the
granting of sanctions under controlled circumstances such as

 where physicians are assigned, the crowd control is insured,
the safety, welfare and health of the boxers and wrestlers,
that is, the participants

look toward and looked after.

Regulations having to do with the younger individual at the
amatjeur level' is assured and guaranteed by the rules and
regulations and cooperation between the State Athletic
Commission and the Amateur Boxing Federation.

And I believe

that to not continue the Pennsylvania Athletic Commission in
its present form would be a mistake.
Q

Thank you, sir.

%

The reason I asked that question,

for your information, is that traditionally that chief
executive officer of the particular group undergoing Sunset
Review also takes the opportunity of this hearing to present
to the Committee of the legislature that will be redrafting the
statute his or her suggestions for areas of improvement.

They

may be in the arena of administrative needs, fiscal needs of
the agency, i.e., hiring investigators, et cetera, maybe in
the ;arena of records keeping.

Since we don't have that, I

wonder if you would be kind enough to answer a couple of
questions as they relate to suggestions in the Sunset Review
Report?

i

A

I would be delighted.

Q

Do you, sir, have a copy of the report?

A

I do.

Q

One of the items was Finding C of the review repon:

 where the finding states, "Despite revenues generated by the
Commission having exceeded Commission expenses, my compliments
to you, sir, for staying in budget in fiscal year '85-86, the
period of review, that we have discovered that the Department
of State has not offered the backup and support services that
the statute would have be made available to the Commission and
to you, sir."
those.

I wonder if you might comment on a number of

I see one sticks out in particular, and that is, the

lack of support for a Medical Advisory Board which is
particularly critical in the regulation of amateur and
professional boxing?
A

Yes, sir.

I will be happy to.

If I may first,

let me say that we agree practically entirely with that which
has been recommended by Mr. Dario and his staff.

And all

members of our Commission worked very closely with Mr. Dario
and his staff.
Happily, I may tell you that the scenario at the
Department of State now is 180 degrees reversed from that whicti
it was under Mr. Gleason, the former Secretary of the
Commonwealth.

Mr. Haggert>yand his staff, Mr. Grant and his

staff have endeavored to implement each and every suggestion
that has been made by Mr. Dario.
Unfortunately, during the calendar year of '85-86
when it came to pass that the revenues exceeded the expenses
by more than $100,000, there apparently was a plan that we did

 not know about to abolish boxing in the state of Pennsylvania
and this plan was being engineered by the Secretary of the
i

Commonwealth, Robert Gleason.

He has told that, he has

i

suggested and recommended to Mr. Haggert*y that

he abolish boxing.

I was astounded when I heard that and could not understand how
some of the things that were happening wete happening.

But

once you hear that, it makes it very simple.
Now, all of the'suggestions having to do with
computerization are being implemented.

Secretary Baggerty?ba*

taken it upon himself to canvas the members of the Athletic
Commission to get names for the Medical Advisory Board.

Those

names are being submitted to Governor Casey and the doctors
are willing, ready and willing and anxious to serve. We are
ready, willing and anxious to have them.

And I must tell you,

sir,: that during the past five years, when the Medical Advisory
Board was mroTfctbTarn3„ I personally called for the suspension
of boxing no fewer than six times in public meetings and in
letters to the then Secretary of the Commonwealth.

Because 1

felt that it was most unwise and very unsafe to operate
without the help of a medical advisory board.

All of those

things that have been detected and brought to the fore:* by the
audit, the Sunset Audit j Commit teej I must "t el T^yolithaTweTrave tfr i
greatest respect for and work very closely with, all of the
things that they recommended are being implemented.

They are

being done on a daily basis. We meet once a month with
;l

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 Secretary Haggerty and Mr. Grant, his chief aid. We have now
been afforded counsel at every opportunity, whenever we need
t

t

him, and things are really looking up.
Q

You answered my next question, the availability of

counsel to Commission staff.
'

A

Yes.

Q

Do you feel your legal complement will be

satisfactory for the future?
A

Yes.

Q

Or do you want us. to address that in the statute .

to assure that you have, i.e., independent counsel to the
Commission or would you prefer loaning legal counsel from
state government?
A

Well, unless the counsel, her or himself were to

tell you it is too burdensome, we are delighted to be an
integral part of the Department of State.

Because in being

that integral part, we have Mr. Grant's ear on a daily basis
which means we have Secretary HaggertyVs ear and the funds that
rightfully should have been employed in the operation of the
Athletic Commission are now being so employed.
on the road toward computerization.

We have star tec

We have a computer in the

Harrisburg office. We are getting computer parts shipped on
a weekly basis to our regional offices. We are getting a much
higher caliber of morale in our employees in the regional
offices and things are really turned around.
i,

 Q

Thank you, Chairman Bitms. Just for the record,

with respect to those, do you have a target date for the
Medical Advisory Board to be sitting and as well as for your
computer services to be up and running and on board?
A

We have a target date for the Medical Advisory

Board which has passed, but we are very close.
With respect to the computer, it is rough. We are
just really doing it pragmatically and everyone is using their
best efforts. Every indication has been that the leadership
of the State Department is committed to it and our people are
preparing for the training, and really it is just going to be
ASAP.
Q

Mr. Chairman, if you would, be kind enough as the

next weeks and months unfold while we are conducting this
rewrite, if you see any difficulties developing, particularly
in the formation of your Medical Advisory Board, if you would
be kind enough to contact us and advise us about that, we woulc
be most willing to put specific language in the rewrite to
guarantee you have those necessary services.

Because the

Committee in general feels there are critical needs of the
Commission and we will do our best to supply them.
If I might go on, Mr. Chairman, to another series
of questions that deal with past record keeping and staffing
supervision problems at the Commission which were brought out
by the Legislative Budget and Finance report.

Two of

 particular note, the subject of boxers fighting while under
suspension in the Commonwealth and the fact that no specific
action was taken in a number of cases as well.

Boxers fighting

after as many as six or seven consecutive defeats. Without the
type of medical .examination that New Jersey gives with the EEGs,
EKGs, the ophthalmology exam, et cetera. Would you now perhaps
make recommendations to us if there are suggestions
specifically we ought to put in the law with respect to those
post fight exams that might assist you as well as the necessary
fees to cover that activity?

I understand in the New Jersey

requirement those fees can hit five, $600 for a traditional
post fight exam.

Who would be responsible?

If you are not prepared now to make a thorough
suggestion, we would certainly solicit frojn you, sir, those
suggestions as this rewrite continues. For the time being if
you might just respond briefly as to what has been done to
clean up that record keeping, what you may need to assist that
those proper medical exams are given and if need be, to expand
the required scope of the exam.

In fact, a regular EE6 exam,

an EK6 and the ophthalmological exam in the event that a
fighter is knocked out unconscious.
A

With respect to the need for the record keeping,

that, is being addressed by virtue of the implementation of the
computer.

Once we have the computer in place, we will be able,

on a moment's notice literally, to punch in the results of a

 fight that occurrs in

Johnstown and Rave that appearance on

the screen in Philadelphia.

So that the fighter cannot

traverse the state and engage in a contest after he has been
severely beaten or knocked out or anything of that sort. We
are continuing to upgrade that system.
licenses that are in use.

We have passport

The most important thing, the

sine qua non to a working is a computer system.
With respect to the examinations, the present
state of affairs is woefully Inadequate.

It is my view and the

view is shared by other members of the Commission that there
should be, at a minimum, a yearly examination that would
include the basic't e>s t you just enumerated, an EKG, an
ophthalmological examination, perhaps a CAT Scan.

Back in

1981, I obtained from a Philadelphia hospital a quote of some
$260 per boxer at that time.

Really, when we are talking

about examinations, this is boxing and not wrestling.

It would

not obtain in wrestling.
The problem is, we can get hospitals interested in
doing it in the inner cities, however, the cost has to be
defrayed somehow and I don't really know the answer to that
unless we are given added funds to our budget.

I would be

prepared to come back at a later date and tell you exactly what
those funds would be.

Because I do think that if we are going

to continue boxing in our Commonwealth, it should be the
safest, the best and the highest that there is at least in

 these United States.
The cost of that examination would have to be
borne by the state.

It would not be able to be borne by a

promoter because you could not apportion it.

Some of the

fighters that you are talking about would be impecunious young
men who are of the amateur level and they certainly could not
afford it.
basis

But there should be some basic test on a yearly

that should be given.
Now, with respect to a fighter and a post fight

examination, it, too, would be costly and would not be
practical for it to be borne by the promoter.

Because the

promoters, at least as they tell me, are living on string. And
ten dollars either way makes the difference whether they are
going to go to lunch the next day or not go to lunch the next
day.

I take that with a block of salt when they tell me that,

but that is what they tell me.

So, if we are going to be able

to come to grips with that problem, I think we are going to
have to bite the bullet and assume that cost as part of our
budget.

However, if we continue, and I don't see any reason

why we should not continue to have revenues exceed our
of
expenses such as they did last year to the tune/$100,000, we
should

be able to do that so long as the money is put back in

where it came from which is has not in the past.

It has been

part of the general budget, and I really don't understand the
nuances of the budgetary process. But you all do, and if you

 could see to it that it comes back to where it started from,
we would be able to defray tfoo.s-e costs.

Of course, we would

combine the revenues from boxing and wrestling, but it would
be to the benefit and welfare of the citizens of this
Commonwealth.
Q

Thank you.

I apologize for that brief aside,

Chairman Binns. Next, a request, if I might. Would it be
possible for you to direct your staff to do, at the very least,
a cursory examination of that post knockout fight medical
requirement?
And include in that recommendation to the
Committee what type of examinations you feel would be necessary.
Also, as part of that, would you ask your legal folks to
research the potential liability that the Commission may have
with respect to the Commission ordering a fighter not to fight
if indeed his promoter has a hot event scheduled and would
couzitersue the Commission?
you get

For example, I'm curious to see if

involved in any of that activity that would suddenly

threaten your ability to administer the Commission
A

I can answer that now.

Q

Please.

A

There is a provision in the Athletic Code that

enables members of the Commission to act for the general
health, safety and welfare of participants.

So that I don't

know of an instance where a fighter has ever brought a suit

 and I cannot envision one to tell you the truth.

Because

practically speaking, it is not feasible for them to do it.
Once a commission has spoken with respect to a suspension,
that1 order is given comity throughout every operating
commission in the United States of America.

I have been the

Chairman now since 1980. I cannot remember one instance, and
I can even go further and tell you that even though we

don't

have a written.rule of law prohibiting boxers with detached
retinas from fighting again, we have implemented a policy of
not allowing them.

I have had one fighter come as far as to

say that he demanded a hearing and I gave it to him. He
brought his doctor in and after I finished cross examining
the doctor, there was never anything more said about it.
Because under the power to control and do that which is
necessary for the general health, safety and welfare of it,
we have a very, very wide latitude.

It has never been abused

to my knowledge. We have never had one complaint of
heavy-handedness or abuse.
been deemed necessary.

It has only been used where it has

If I may, I can give you instances

where I've refused to license professional fighters"?after, in
my own opinion, they have had too much.

I bring them in.

I

i

bring their families in.

I bring their minister or their

religious person and I have a very intelligent discussion with
them.

Now, these are people with a lot at. stake.

I am

talking about world class fighters, ex-champions of the world

i

 whom I have refused to license.

Never a problem.

Now, that is not to say that they did not go to a
state where there wasn't a boxing commission and fight.
have done that.

They

But they have never come back to Pennsylvania.

Once they have had that other fight, it is turned out to be a
disaster in the end.

So, I think without doing a lot of

research, I can give you some cold comfort in telling you that
has never happened to my knowledge and I can't see it
happening.
Q
arena.

One final question, if I might, in the safety

It is my understanding that the regulations of the

Commission require EKGs to be given within 24 hours after a
fighter has been knocked out, amateur or professional. Why is
that not happening?
A

It is not happening because we don't have the staff

i

to follow it up.

I mean, we have been operating literally on

a wing and a prayer.

Each office, each regional office, has a

secretary and part-time deputies.
are paid to go to an event.

These part-time deputies

It is unreasonable to ask them to

assume the burden of following up on something that happens
during their own period.

The secretary, for instance, in the

Philadelphia office, could not cope with it because she has
so many other duties and the secretary in the two offices in
Scrahton and Pittsburgh are really part time.

They are there a

couple days a week and they could not cope with it.

So, what

 we need is a professional atmosphere whereby when the fighter
is knocked out that we have the capability of seeing that he
is transported to a hospital.
up.

That a physician will follow it

Once again, our physicians who attend the fights are paid

for the event.

It would be unreasonable to ask them to take a

day or so out of their private practice to follow it up.
Q

If I might take a bone of contention, it would not

be unreasonable, in fact it is the law and in fact the
Commission has no system in place, no administrative system in
place to provide that function?
A

Correct.

Q

I would hope you would get us a recommendation

very soon on how that ought to be provided unless you wish us
to etch it out ourselves in the statute.
A

We will be happy to do that and will do it.

Q

Are there any plans underway to fill that

deficiency?
A

Only the plans that I told you earlier on about,

an overall revamping of the Commission, yes.
Q

I would hope that one critical safety feature is

addressed immediately by the Commission.
A

That one critical safety feature will be

addressed by the Medical Advisory Board and they are the ones
that can help us do it.
Q

Well, it is very easy to pass the buck off on the

 Medical Advisory Board.
now.

It is in fact a Commission regulation

It has been some time a matter of information, reported

admission that it is not being performed.

We are sitting here

with .a budget surplus. You could certainly independently
contract physicians available or contract with the hospital,
such as Temple, to provide the service.
A

I agrees

Q

I don't see any reason why we can't do anything.

You have the authority, sir, to order it, am I correct?
A

I did not view myself as having that authority.

If you tell me I have it, it will be done immediately.
REPRESENTATIVE MILLER:
MR. BINNS:

Thank you, sir.

Thank you.

BY CHAIRMAN OLIVER:
Q

Just one other questions for me.

I think you

stated you became Chairman in 1980?
A

Yes.

Q

When did you stop wrestlers from using razor

blades on their foreheads?
A

That has been in effect for about the past three ox

four years, sir.
i

CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Representative Schuler.

REPRESENTATIVE SCHULER:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

i

BY REPRESENTATIVE SCHULER:
'i

Q

Mr. Chairman, I am new at this so, bear with me.

 For the record, would you just tell us basically what the
Commission's function
A

is?

The Commission's function is that of collecting

taxes and insuring the safety of participants in both amateur
boxing the professional boxing and insuring the health and
safety of participants in professional wrestling and insuring
the health and safety and welfare of the citizens of the
Commonwealth of Pennsylvania who attend those functions that
are characterized as boxing and wrestling.
Q

Thank you.

Now, I am having a conflict here and I

have; not made up my mind until I hear all. this testimony that
is going to be presented here today.

But to clear some of my

thinking, during your comments here you made some statements
to the effect that professional wrestling is an exhibition
and I see you agree.
a soap opera.

It is a show.

It is an art form.

It is a funny scenario.

It's

It is not a competitive

sport. You see no problem with that.
If your definition is what I read here, professional
wrestling, should it really be in the realm of sports?
A

Well, I think so.

Q

But that's my problem.

I think I have a problem

with: that because this is what it is all about, is it really a
sport?

You made a statement it is not a competitive sport.

Should we be regulating?
i

has to be resolved.
i<

That is one of the issues I think

 A

Only for the reasons I gave you, yes.

Q

I understand that, but my feeling is when I go to

some, hockey games, you know, I'm not coming down on hockey
because I love hockey, but I see some situations that were very
dangerous among the players. You have no control over that,
do you?
A

No, sir.

Q

And those gentlemen are serious when they are playing.

In your testimony you are saying this is not really serious,
am I. correct?

•

A

If you mean the hostility part.

Q

Yes.

A

Yes. But with respect to the hockey, that is why

you have a situation in Boston where they are going to start
to arrest hockey players.
Somebody has got to

It is bad.

Somebody has to be there.

~

Q

You said they are going to arrest hockey players?

A

Yes, sir.

Q

Who?

A

The police, the mayor.

Q

Right, but they are going through a civil —

A

No, that is criminal.

Q

Well, criminal, okay, but it is being handled by

the Boston Police Department.
A

That is unfortunately the way it is going to have

 to happen, but if they had someone in control, they wouldn't
need that.

Because they would have someone who is forceful

commissioner controlling it, it doesn't get out of hand like
that.
(
t

Q

Now, just a word on boxing.

I see we have a

referee coming on here later this morning. Maybe he will
clarify this. But from your perspective, do we have some kind
of guidelines that a referee uses to stop a fight?
A

A referee is empowered to use his judgment.

Q

It is his call?

A

Yes, sir.

t,

Q

And when we have no guidelines whatsoever?

',

A

Well, the only guidelines that you have are

whether of not he is a competent and qualified referee and you
only know that by seeing him perform his professional past.
REPRESENTATIVE SCHULER:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Representative Battisto.

REPRESENTATIVE BATTISTO:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

BY REPRESENTATIVE BATTISTO:
Q

Mr. Chairman, you indicated that from time to time

youfraatfe' a boxer come in your office, interrogate him and his
family and assess the situation.

I assume you look at his age,

his!physical condition and determine that he is or is not
capable to proceed.

Therefore, you either license him or you

 don't license him, right?
A

Yes.

Q

You sort of assess the situation.

some history.

You have had

But with respect to the ongoing boxing in the

state, I'm not sure if it is regulatory or statutory, but there
is something that says if a boxer has lost six consecutive
fights, he is to be investigated by the Commission.

Now,

apparently, I think you answered Representative Miller with
respect to another regulatory or statutory mandate. You
indicated there was not enough staff to
you have the staff to carry —
A

carry that out. Do

is this being done?

It is being done, yes, sir. The way it is being

done; is, what we do is make the promoter provide us with a
professional record of the contestant that he is matching and
interrogate the promoter as to who has won and lost and when
they have occurred.

However, it is an imperfect science

without the use of the computer.

Once we have a computer

system, it will be foblpppofir
Q

I was going to say how do you know whether

somebody lost in Seattle, Washington one week and in Savannah,
Georgia?
A

Without the use of a computer and the passport

license system, we don't know. We have one part of that
equation. We have the passport license that they have to take
with them from state to state. And once we get the computer,

 it will be a very easy task to punch up the name of a fighter
to find out where he has been and there is also a computer
service in New Jersey that is operated by a gentleman by the
name of Ralph Citro (phonetic) that catalogues the records of
all the boxers in the United States of America.

We have

access to that. At least we will have. We will be able to
network it. We can do that.
REPRESENTATIVE BATTISTO:

Thank you.

Thank you,

Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Representative Hasay.

REPRESENTATIVE HASAY:

Thank you, Chairman Oliver.

BY REPRESENTATIVE HAS AY:
Q

Good morning, Chairman Binns.

I am concluding

from your testimony this morning that you feel that professional
wrestling should be regulated?
A

Yes, sir.

Q

Now, in some of the states where it is deregulated,

what do you think see some of the disadvantages for the
wrest tier or the wrestling itself where it is deregulated?
A

Only those that I enumerated before, sir, and I

think there can be a real threat to the health, safety and
welfare of the wrestler if he is allowed to go unbridled and
do that which someone tells him he can earn an extra $100 for.
Be it cutting himself with a razor, allowing himself to be hit
over the head for real with a chair.

 We are about to embark on drug testing and I can
only tell you what I read in the newspapers about other
athletes and other sports ingesting drugs,. I don't know what
happens with respect to wrestlers.
thing we would be looking at.

That would be another

If your question is limited to

the wrestler, that would be it.

In other words, there would

have to be someone, in my opinion, that can oversee the health,
safety and welfare of that particular individual to insure
that he is allowing himself to be treated like a human being.
Q

Well, what happens in some of the other states

that are deregulated?

They don't have anything of that nature

at all?
A

No.

Q

Nothing?

A

No.

That is why they come to our state with cuts

that they got the day before. And then they say, oh, I didn't
cut myself here.

Somebody just opened it up.

It just

happened last Saturday.
REPRESENTATIVE HASAY:

Thank you.

Thank you,

Chairman Oliver.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Representative Hughes.

BY REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES:
i

Q

Good morning, Mr. Chairman.

You discussed, it

sounds like computers would kind of solve everything?
A

It won't solve everything but it will go a long

 step, yes.
Q

Would be very helpful. My limited knowledge of

computers indicates to me before you have the computer you have
to have the process, the system for getting the information
out of the field into the computer. My question basically, is
your system in place to get the information from the Blue
Horizon and the Shetter (phonetic) Recreation Center and all
the other places out there where there is some kind of a form
of boxing taking place to get that information into your
computer?
A
reports.

Yes, it is. We have what are called after contest
These reports are a chronology of what happens at

the event.

For instance, the Blue Horizon, the chief deputy

goes to that show and he submits at the end of that show an
after contest report which has the identiy of the fighters,
the result of the contest, the amount of additional license fee
collected, who was knocked out, who was technically knocked
out;, has all the information in written form which then can
very easily be transcribed into the computer by the secretary
at the regional office, be it Philadelphia, Pittsburgh or
Scran ton. Yes, that is in place and has been in place.
The problem is, a written document such as that is
too Unwieldy in the written form and if it is broken down into
different segments that go into the computerized program, it
will be something that will be very facile to operate with.

 i

Q
A

How many chief deputies do you have?
is
Every deputy/capable of being a chief deputy.

We have, in the Philadelphia area, approximately 20 deputies.
All of those deputies have been instructed as to how to operate
as a, chief deputy and in rotation they do operate as a chief
deputy.

Some are better than others, but everybody is

supposed to have the capability.
Q

Is there a criteria set up that they have to meet

before they can become deputy?
A

No.

They have to be able to read and write and

add and subtract.

But other than that, there is not a great

deal that goes, on at a professional boxing or a professional
wrestling or amateur boxing show that someone with those
capabilities cannot learn and cannot operate within that rubric
to perform after contest reports. We have not had any problem
with respect to the reports.
Q

No problems with respect to the reports.

It would

just seem to me that it would kind of be necessary,
especially with respect to the safety of the participants that
an individual who is responsible for monitoring the situation
should have some kind of knowledge beforehand.

It seems like

you indicated that on-the-job training almost is what goes on.
A

Oh, no. We have training seminars where they are

trained.

But the chief deputy would have little or no impact

on the safety of the boxers.

I mean, the boxers are trained

 professionals or amateurs with coaches and there are two
physicians present at the ringside.

There is a physical

examination given at the weigh-in, the day of the fight.

The

chief deputy is someone who is to go there and see that the
show; is run according to the rules and regulations.
have very little —

He would

he would have some role to play if a

stretcher wasn't present.

He would have to see that one was

there. He knows that before he goes in.

I am not talking

about taking you down, if you have never been a chief deputy
and say, here, operate.. You would be trained.

You would have

operated as a deputy, an assistant deputy before, a deputy
athletic commissioner before you.were given the assignment.
But we don't have any problems in that regard.
BY CHAIRMAN OLIVER:
Q

Mr. Biims, during your tenure as Chairman have you

had jbccasion to investigate any boxer who lias lost six ,
consecutive bouts, and if so, what was your findings?
A

I have prohibited certain boxers from boxing, yes,

Q

For what reason?

A

For recurring losses.

Q

What were your findings for you to arrive at that

sir.;

decision?
A

Just the fact of the losses and we have had

instances where there have been public hearings and I have tolc

 'l

the young man involved that he has to seek another area of
employment.

I have had other instances where a hearing was

never requested and on the basis of an abysmal performance or
a repitition of knockouts, I have just advised the fighter
that they would not be fighting again.
But when you say the basis of it, it is kind of an
ad hoc thing, Mr. Chairman.

I mean, boxing is not something

that is mechanical and there is a lot of it that you have to
be knowledgeable about boxing to know.about.

You can look,

as someone who is not knowledgeable about the fight game, and
I put that term in quotes, it is term of art, you can look at
an individual who looks to be, appears to be to you a superb
physical specimen, but he might not be able to fight a lick.
That, is where you have to have some control over who gets
matched with whom.

I can think of one particular instance

where in the case of a former world

champion, who was a

superb physical specimen, but he had lost and he had sustained
some severe beatings even when he won fights and it was
necessary for me to retire him.

He is happily retired now and

it is going to happen to another one.

It is happening right

now to another one whose name does not have to be mentioned on
this record.

Because I know he has sustained two severe

beatings, and if you are a boxing fan, you.probably saw them.
There is no way that he can convince me that he has anything
to gain by continuing on as a fighter.

Coincidentally, his

 father agrees with me.

But that is a call that I have to make

when I shave In the morning.

I mean, it would be very easy fox

!me to say let him end up on his heels.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:
MR. MITCHELL:

Mr. Mitchell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman,

BY MR. MITCHELL:
Q

Mr. Binns, when did you become Chairman of the

State Athletic Commission?
A

When?

Q

Yes.

A

I think it was in April of 1980.

Q

When is your term up?

A

I don't know that it ever is up.

i

It is up when
i

whomever the present governor is sends a name over to be
confirmed and that individual is confirmed.
Q

What governor appointed you?

Was that Governor

Thornburgh?
A

Yes.

Q

Are you paid for this position?

A

Yes, sir, $7500 a year.

Q

Do you have an executive director for your

Commission?
A

Yes.

Q

Who appoints him or her?

A

I believe that the Secretary of the Commonwealth

 appoints him.

That was something that was in doubt for years,

but I think it has been finally resolved, that he is the
direct appointee of the Secretary of the Commonwealth.
According to the audit that was done, I think at one point he
was appointed by the Secretary of Revenue.

But I think it has

been now decided that he is an appointee of the Secretary of
the Commonwealth and works directly for the Secretary of the
Commonwealth.
Q

Is any of your staff under civil service

jurisdiction?
A

No, sir.

Q

None at all?

A

No, sir.

Q

How many daysj~~a /-Lw~ e e k

do "you put" in'TTe<i e

i

physically at the headquarters i n Harrisburg for the State
Athletic Commission?
A

He?

Q

Yes.

A

One a month.

Q

One a month, is that adequate in your view?

A

I'm sorry?

Q

Is that adequate in your view?

A

I wouldn't have to put any in in Harrisburg.

In

other words, to do this, to do my job effectively, all I have
to do is really have access to a secretary by phone.

 Q

L-Are vou going to .watch the Ft'nk'lon Thomas /Mike

Tyson f ight in~Vega's'?" "I" know we chatted" b"ye"r~~th"at~.

"

A

Yes.

Q

Are you planning on attending the Cooney/Spinks

fight in Atlantic City pretty soon?
A

Yes.

Q

Do you make it to many of these, obviously you do,

many of these boxing exhibitions?
A

As many as I can.

Q

Who determines who goes to which one?

A

That has nothing to do with my being Commissioner.

That has to do with my being a boxing fan.

None of those

expenses are picked up by the Boxing Commission.

That is all

my own.
Q

I see.

If I may, Mr. Chairman, I would like to

turn to Item 6 in the Audit Report and just going back to the
professional wrestling issue. Of course, the Legislative
Budget and Finance Committee called for some revised
regulatory guidelines with respect to professional wrestling.
I would like to get your good shorthand view with respect to
those recommendations.

They ought to call for licensing

involving professional wrestler promoters. What is your view
of that?
A

I agree with it.

Q

Licensing of professional wrestlers?

 

 A

I agree with it.

Q

Licensing of professional wrestling referees?

A

I agree with it.

Q

You have already commented to Chairman Oliver

regarding the Medical Advisory Board.

That it will be

reactivated, that is correct?
A

Yes', sir.

Q

You state that you will have regulations or they

are already underway regarding wrestlers (rutting themselves?
A

We have policy and if it is necessary, we would

put it into law.

But I think it is something that really,

i

were it not for the wrestling people who are here making the
claim that they are making, I would not have made it public to
tell you the truth.

Because I think it is something that

doesn't have to be a matter of law.

I think it just makes

common sense and it is a matter of human decency not to allow
people to do that.

Certainly you would not allow cock birds

to fight one another with spurs on.

I cannot envision a

scenario where any human being would allow one of its own kind
to cut himself with a razor just so people out there could see
blood flowing down.
Q

Well, do you believe there should be regulations

in this regard, regarding use of razor blades?
A

I don't think you need them.

objection to them.

I think, I have no

But what I am saying to you is I think you

 don't need it so long as you have the ability of a wrestling
commissioner to prohibit it under his power to do that which
is necessary for the health, safety and welfare of the
participants.
Q

I guess my concern, the Committee will have the

final say so, my concern is on the enforcement mechanism of
wrestlers fighting, so to speak, with fans. Perhaps it is
a stage which I don't know, but the Audit Report was quite clear
that; there should be regulatory relief regarding wrestlers
fighting with fans, individuals thrown out.

I know, you agree

with that?
A

I agree with it all. But I'm saying, if it is

feasible to write a lad in that regard, then write one.

But we

don't have many instances of fans fighting with wrestlers. We
have a few. When I take you to a wrestling match, you are
going to see why that happens. Wrestling fans are sui
generis..

They are unlike football fans, they are unlike

basketball fans or baseball fans or hockey fans.
Q

If X may briefly change the scope before I

finalize this. Let me return to amateur wrestling.

Do you

believe you should have jurisdiction over amateur wrestling?
A

No.

The reason that we don't need jurisdiction over

amateur wrestling is, number one, we don't have jurisdiction
over any amateur wrestling that is affiliated with an
educational institution which I think that covers every type of

 amateur wrestling.

Amateur wrestling is tournaments, Mr.

Chairman, where they have day long tournaments from six
o'clock in the morning till nine o'clock at night sometimes.
It would he a waste of the resources of the state to assign
deputies to it because I don't think they are run for the
purpose of generating income such as professional wrestling is.
In my opinion, there is no need to have an athletic commission
involved in something that is already regulated and regulated
well and that is regulated well.
Q

Finally, Mr. Chairman, do you believe that prison

boxing, the Graterford boxing program, individuals in programs
such as that, do you feel that that should be exempt from
your regulatory guidelines, prison boxing as you know it.

If I

may very briefly, Mr. Chairman, you are aware that these men
are doing hard time with very little to do. You had a few
years ago one particular popular prisoner, who I forget the
name.
A

His name was James Scott.

Q

That's right, James Scott.

title, and light heavyweight division.

He was heading for the
Do you feel prison

boxing should be regulated?
A
yes.

Every boxer, who is a prison boxer, is not a hardened

criminal.
criminals.
•i

i

My personal opinion is that it should be regulated,

I would say that the vast majority are not hardened
I would say that prison boxing is a worthwhile

 endeavor for a young man who has taken a misstep in life and
finds himself incarcerated and it is something that he can do
while he is in there and it is something that should he achieve
a certain level of capability will give him a means toward a
very lucrative income when he finishes paying his debt to
society.

I think it should be continued to be regulated and I

think it should be continued to be fostered and I think people
who ;are involved in the program should be given as much
encouragement as they can.
MR. MITCHELL:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Any other questions?

Representative Linton.
REPRESENTATIVE LINTON:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

BY REPRESENTATIVE LINTON:
Q

Chairman Binns, I'm happy to have a chance to see

you .this morning and want to kind of continue some lines of
questioning from before regarding the wrestling issue.
not quite sure

I'm

I know all the questions that staff has

asked, but I would like you to askryon anas regarding the
i

wrestling.

Do you see wrestling as being analogous to boxing

where in fact you have two individuals basically independent
of one another with a promoter both having, a purse being
presented to the victor in a large degree than the one that has
lost versus wrestling being similar to a circus where in fact
it would be conceived more as a performance, entertainment per

 se?

That is in fact organized and operated by one faction and

therefore more of an acting performance kind of setting rather
than an athletic event?
A

No and yes. Are they two questions?

Q

No, they are one question.

A

I can break them down into two.

The first part of

your question, the answer is no.
The second part of your question, the answer is
yes, however, with the emendation that I would not use the
word circus. I would simply stay with the word as it is
couched in the Athletic Code and that is exhibition,
exhibition.

No winning or losing, no purse.

It is nothing

like' boxing.
Q

What I am trying to draw is whether or not

wrestling per se should in fact be regulated, should in fact be
overseen by the Athletic Commission?
1

Whether or not it is in

i

i

fact an athletic event or whether it is a show, aTjperformajiceJ
like the concert, the theater, the circus.
A

Well, we have spent most of the morning discussing

that, sir.
[

Q

I see the Court Reporter is verifying that that

was in fact discussed.
A

In great detail.

Q

In great detail, so, I guess I will have to go

over the Court Reporter's report and not indulge this

 1

Committee with any more questions in that regard.
A

No, I don't want to put you to that trouble. My

position is as follows:
exhibition.

it is not a contest.

It is an

It needs to be controlled because someone has to

protect the health and safety of the wrestlers.

Because the

wrestlers, if left unattended, will LUurtrth^maei^sg.tl^y-Vl'E^
,themseIves^with razor blades',' hit each other with chairs,;: f i£h£__:
with' the fans. So, that is one area of protection that somebody
has  to do and the Athletic Commission does a very good job.
There has to be some protection for your
constituents and that is the people who go to these shows.
Because left unattended, they, too,

will hurt themselves and the

wrestlers. . They throw debris in the ring.

3%ey fight among

themselves,, they fight with the wrestlers. When I say debris,
I am not talking about throwing a piece of paper or a peanut.
I'm talking about rocks, cans. And, Mr. Chairman, just a
little vignette, the one before the last one we had at the
Civic Center, I found a fan,

you can't believe this, he had

smuggled a six-pack of 12 ounce beer cans and he had consumed
five of them.

And just as a little kicker, he- had a can of

paint thinner that he was sniffing.

Now, this guy, he didn't

even know what planet he was on. He was there. This was a
women's wrestling show.
great.

They were great.

The women were

They bring these women in from Miami and from Las Vegas

and they can do all of the acrobatics that the men do. They

 really do a good job.
I had

to get personally Involved to get the

security people to get him to get him out and get him arrested.
Because the normal thing for them to do is, look, that is not
our problem.

Let's get the guy out.

Let's see if we can do

it with as little fanfare as possible. You have to have people
there to control what the fans will do to one another.
Imagine what that guy is capable of doing.

Imagine - five

12 ounce cans of beer consumed and I don't know how much fumes
from his can of paint thinner.

It is amazing.

REPRESENTATIVE LINTON:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 1

guess I will not prolong this issue and I guess it has been
discussed over and over again.

I'll have to talk to my

colleagues and also review some of the information that was
obtained earlier.
BY REPRESENTATIVE LINTON:
Q

Can I move on to another area and leave wrestling

and.go to boxing?

Maybe that was discussed also. Recent

years there has been a lot of discussions about changes in the
I-

'<

area of boxing

in terms of the kind of gloves that are used

and some other kinds of things in terms of safety hazards,
new protections, things that could be done to make the sport
safer than it is now.

Even at what point referees intervene

during a match, what kind of medical attention Is being
provided ringside and whether or not we should go to headgear,

 a number of other things that have been discussed.

What is the

feelings of the Commission around those kind of safety issues
related to boxing? ..
A

With respect to headgear, for some time now,

maybe five years, 1 have made it mandatory for amateur boxers
to Wear headgear in all contests. We don't have a written
rule.

That is the policy.

I think that there is a written

rule now being prepared by a member of the House of
Representatives or the State Senate, I am not sure.
be Senator Kelly.

It could

But in any event, that situation has

obtained for at least five years.
In addition to that, we have a rule -:- strike that.
Wefaiavea policy against allowing boxers who have sustained
a detached retina to compete again.

Once .they have a detached

retina, regardless of repair of it or regardlesss of the
reputation of the physician or surgeon who repairs it, they no
longer fight in Pennsylvania.
We have a policy that dictates thumb less gloves at
the lamateur rank. We don't have a written rule, once again,
r
but we have put that in and it has gained universal acceptance
throughout the state. We are going to implement the same rule
with professional boxing within less than a six-month period.
That is already on the books.
We have a rule —

strike that. We have a policy

whereby with respect to state championship fights we have drug

 testing after the fights.

It is ray view that we ought to have

random drug sampling at every fight. We ought to be able to
walk in and say to whomever we like to that night, you are
going to give a urine sample and see what it shows up.

In the

event it shows positive, we would take whatever the necessary
actions were.
Our biggest problem with respect to safety is the
nonuse of yearly physicals that would test the eyes, the brain.
Our biggest problem is the nonuse of what are really mandatory
post, fight physicals and we need more money to do that. We need
a bigger staff. We need to have the consultation with our
Medical Advisory Board, which is now being formed, which has
been, moribund.

The people who are members of the Athletic

Commission are very safety conscious and we do the best we can
in that area and we will continue to do that.
Q

Along the same issue, are there any specific

requirements of physicals as required that, a boxer has a
physical every three weeks or every two months or any specific
interval, nothing of that nature?
A

A boxer gets a physical tfe£ day of the fight, but

the physical is hot much of a physical. And we have been
endeavoring for the past seven years to have at least a yearly
mandatory physical where a boxer will go to a hospital and
have a CAT Scan, have an EKG, have an ECE, have an
ophthalmological examination.

That in my view should be

 rudiments.

In other words, you have to have at least that in

order to have a quality health oriented physical examination.
The problem is money. We would have to have that provided for
in o'ur budget and with the help of a Medical Advisory Board, we
woul,d then be able to either have it done through a state
affiliated hospital such as Temple in Philadelphia or we would
have' to contract it out to whomever the lowest bidder would be.
But it is tough to take a boy off the streets, who is trying
to do sromething with his life, and let's say he is 16 years old
and wants to be an amateur boxer. And the alternative is to be
J

hanging on the street corner and ingesting drugs. To tell him
in order to be an amateur boxer, he has got to come up with
i
$500 in order to get tested so we can tell whether or not he
is predisposed toward a subdural hematoma.

Do you know what

i

that kid is going to do?

I mean, $500 to a boy from the inner

city, it is a lifetime of earnings,. Though he is going to say,
well, I just better stay out here with the boys at the corner.
I can pay five dollars for a nickel bag.
So, we have been wrestling with it, but we have not
had I the support that we needed until now.

Now we have support,

I am happy to say.
Q

Where is that support?

A

From the Secretary of the Commonwealth, Secretary

TJaggetty.
Q

One other question along the same lines, is there

 a required interval that is required between events or between
bouts?

For instance, can a fighter engage in a bout every two

weeks or does he —
A

No, there is a required interval and in most

instances it is adhered to. We also have required intervals
after which a fighter may not fight, if he has sustained a
knockout, for 90 days.

The problem that you have with that is

that fighters from outside the state, there are in the boxing
business what are known as flesh merchants and we try to flush
out the flesh merchants.

The flesh merchants will take kids

literally from the street corner in North Carolina, bring them
up and give him 50 bucks to get knocked out in Philadelphia and
keep, right on going down the north-south freeway to Atlantic
City and give him 50 bucks to get knocked out there the next
night and then give him another 50 bucks when he gets up to
i,

New York to do it.

There are individuals who are known flesh

peddjlers. The. only way, there could be all the regulation in
the world, the only way you are going to control that is with
an adequate passport license system where the boxer's face is
on the license like a passport and an integrated computerized
network that X can tell that Johnny Jones fought in Pittsburgh
two nights ago and if he tries to come to Scranton or tries to
come to Philadelphia to fight, we will be able to punch his
name up on the computer and say, no, you can't do it.
Q

You're telling me that Sugar Ray Leonard cannot

 box in Pennsylvania?
A

That is correct.

Q

Because of the regulation?

A

That is absolutely correct.

Q

Final question, since we have a State Boxing

Commission, is there any intrastate or some sort of reciprocity
or any other kind of regulation that is generally held
throughout the country?

What I am hearing is that Sugar Ray

Leonard issue is one that we have a regulation here regarding
not allowing someone to fight with a detached retina.

They may

be able to go to New York and do that or New Jersey or
somewhere else.

Do we have some standards that are nationally
ought to
recognized that we' adhere to or is there any sort of council
that the state commissions participate in in terms of moving
towards something like that?
A

There is a formation of a group that is called the

Association of Boxing Commissions and that is made up of
various state commissions, Pennsylvania being one of them.
There is also —

the answer to your question is, no, there is

notia formalized network.

There is rather an informal rule

that should a boxer be suspended in one state, that would be
recognized in another state if there is a boxing commission
there and that is adhered to.
There is a loose knit group formulated that calls
itself the Association of Boxing Commissions.

I gave them

 their name. We met up in New York with a group of about 20
commissioners a year or so ago.

Commissioner Baer has

recently attended one of their functions.
There is on the drawing board a National Boxing
Commission that is being sponsored by Representative Richardson
from Albuquerque, New Mexico.

At least it appears at this

point, is going to endeavor to have some formalized standards
for safety in boxing that would be nationally promulgated and
would have to be adhered to by the states because of the
national flavor of it.

That is really what there is. For a

long time, boxing has been left to go unattended and there is
no, at this point as we talk, there is no formal document that
states would have to adhere to.

1 can pick up the phone and

talk to Larry Hazard in New Jersey.

I could pick up the phone

and talk to Jose Torres in New York.

I could pick up the phone

and .talk to Fred Lamson in Kentucky.. I could pick up the phone
and'talk to Sid Rovich (phonetic) in Nevada.

I know them all.

1 know all of the people who are chairnueaa of the various
commissions all, over the United States, and if I told them
something that I would think impact on the health and safety
of one of their fighters, they would probably listen to me but
they wouldn't be compelled to.
REPRESENTATIVE LINTON:
No further questions, Mr. Chairman.
BY CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Thank you very much.

 Q

Mr. Chairman, I have witnessed matches, wrestling

matches, whereas the wrestler would punch the referee. Yet and
still he wasn't disqualified.

Was this part of the act?

A

It is all part of the show, Mr. Chairman,

Q

X think I'm going to have to stop watching it.

A

I am going to take you with me one time.

Q

I'd love to do that.

A

You want to go with me.

Q

I would l i k e to be up c l o s e .

A

The next time these people are in town, this is

r

Mr. Monsoon from Titan Sports, this is '^Mr_s"._McMahqn_f*omJTitan•
Sports.

I don't know who the other two gentlemen are. The

next time they are in Philadelphia, you are going to go with me
to the Spectrum and I'm going to take you down. Would this
gentleman who just stood up now, if he wants to come up here
and make whatever statement he wants to, I will be happy to
answer it for you or for every member of the Committee or for
every member of the public.

No problem.

CHAIRMAN OLIVER: Mr. Mitchell.
MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
BY MR. MITCHELL:
Q

Back to the audit. Who answers to whom, Mr. Binns,

the executive secretary as opposed to the Chairman, yourself?
Who answers to whom, the Audit Report' shows -A

The executive secretary answers to the Secretary of

 the Commonwealth.
Q

In the day-to-day operations, however, is that also

A

Yes.

Q

Who provides the performance evaluation of the

true?

executive secretary?
A

I believe the Secretary of the Commonwealth.

Q

Are you aware there hasn't been a performance

evaluation of the executive secretary since 1982?
A

That is not true.

Q

That is what the Audit Report states.

A

I know.

But the problem was, and look, what I am

trying not to do is, I don't want to rock any boat that has
been righted.

There was a time when the ship of the Athletic

Commission was shaky with respect to whom the executive
secretary reported to and what his duties were and what the
functions of the Commission were vis-a-vis one another.

That

has all been taken care of now because of the intervention of
Secretary Haggerty.. There was a time when a chart was
distributed that showed that the executive secretary reported
to me. Well, that didn't turn out to be true. I did not
prepare the chart.
State Department.

The chart was prepared by people in the
There was a time when the executive

secretary was told that he had to report to me.

Then he got a

letter saying he couldn't report to me, he had to report to the

 Secretary of the Commonwealth.

Then he was told he had to

report to both me and the Secretary of the Commonwealth,

Then

he was told that he couldn't report to me unless it was a joint
action of the Commission.

I am sure he was confused.

I know

I was.
The fact of the matter is, as it stands right now,
our executive secretary is physically housed in Harrisburg.
It seems to me to be working fine. He is an appointee and
reports to the Secretary of the Commonwealth and I assume on a
day-to-day basis he works with Bob Grant, who is the Chief
Deputy to the Secretary of the Commonwealth.

That is the

answer to your question in a nutshell unless you want to take
it further.
Q

How is the working relationship between you and the

f

executive secretary coming along?
A

It is fine.

be day-to-day contact.

There is really no need for there to
There is no need to be what is one

time thought to be misdirection coming from me. He works for
the Secretary of the Commonwealth the same as Bob Grant.
Q

Who divides the administrative responsibilities

between yourself and the executive secretary?
A

There aren't any.

responsibilities.

I don't have administrative

I have a region, which I control, which is

known as the Philadelphia Region.

Richard Baer has a region

to control which is called the Pittsburgh Region.

Charles

 Bednarik has a region to control which is called the Scranton
Region. We each have our own individual secretaries. All of
those activities are coordinated through the executive
secretary.

The executive secretary deals with the secretaries

in our office or if on occasion, if he sends a memo and needs
something and the memo comes to me, it gets replied to and he
t

gets!; it.

If, on the other hand, if I need something and I send

a memo up to Harrishurg, it comes back and it is done.
Q

Turning to another area of audit, briefly, Mr.

Chairman, regarding pay, your deputy commissioners as well as
Commission members.

The Audit Report outlines perhaps there is

need for revision there as well. What should Ttf bere^ardinfti
the pay~6f""depu^y"40!°™^^0^^?g-?- '
A

You mean should it be escalated?

Q

Yes.

A

Well, I think it should be escalated.

I think

i

the deputy commissioners work hard.

I think that they are

i'

entitled to be compensated for it.

I think our physicians

should be compensated &crir'e: as well. But you can only go to
the well so often unless there is some water in it. and the
water that we need is additional funding.
BY CHAIRMAN OLIVER:
Q

What is the deputy commissioner's salary?

A

They don't get a salary, sir. , They get a stipend

per event and it goes down to units of an hour and I believe
i,
t

 it averages out to about $60. Then there is an additional five
dollars for the chief deputy or $15.
Q

No other —

A

They are not on salary.

They work the events that

they are assigned to.
Q

What about the Commission members?

A

The Commission members are salaried.

I get, I

thought I said that before to Mr. Mitchell, I get $7500 a year
because I am a chairman.
$7000 a year.

The other two commissioners get

In New Jersey, the chairman gets $68,000 a year

and he has deputy commissioners who earn $45,000 a year.
New York —

I misspoke.

In

In New York, Jose gets $68,000 a year.

In New Jersey, I believe, Larry Hazard gets upward to $50,000
a year.
Q

Based on what you just said, do you consider

t

you* p o s i t i o n being underpaid?
A

It doesn't matter to me.

a wrestling fan.
Q

I am a boxing fan.

I am

I like to be involved.

Let's talk about the position itself rather than

just; on an individual basis.
A

Weil, of course.

Q

My question was, in comparison —

A

It is the difference between $7500 and 62,000. To

tell you the truth, I wouldn't be prepared to discuss the
salary and it is unimportant to me.

But it is obvious to me

 that if you have one commissioner who is paid $68,000 a year
in a neighboring state and another commissioner who is paid
upwards of 50 or 55,000, I don't have the figures, but I think
Mr. Dario has them in the footnotes. They do what we do.
They have deputy commissioners who make more than $40,000 a
year.

I don't think anybody here is doing it for the money.

BY MR. MITCHELL:
Q

Briefly, on page 26 of the Audit Report it sets

forth the figures.

Inspectors for the New York Commission re-

ceive $3jTper event. A full-time commissioner of New Jersey, as
Mr. Binns highlighted, receives an annual salary of $60,000.
A

68.

Q

It's 60 on the audit, however —

A

Well, I'm reading from your page 26.

Q

Page 26, at the bottom of the page?

A

Yes.

It says New York has a full-time commissionei

that receives $68,000.
Q

I was reading New Jersey, that is why.

A

With the other two commissioners receiving a per

diem of $110 for the meetings they attend up to a maximum of
5000 a year.

New York has five full-time deputy commissioners.

Inspectors for the New York Commission receive $39 per event.
New Jersey has a full-time Commissioner who receives 60,000.
New Jersey has two full-time deputies who receive 47,000 and a
full-time chief inspector who receives 35,000. Part-time

 inspectors in New Jersey receive approximately $7 per hour per
event.

It comes to about $42.

i

CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Representative Hughes.

BY REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES:
Q

Let me see if I can try and get a fix on this.

How many professional boxers are licensed or regulated or
permitted to fight in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania?
A

We have, I believe, 600.licenses out of the

i

Philadelphia office and maybe 200 of them are fighters.
is not that many in the other offices.

There

There may be a total

of maybe 25 or 30, maybe as high as 50.
Q

Notwithstanding the lack of a computer, do you

have a fiscal record of background information and fights
schedule, won-loss record, health record on each of these
fighters?
A

S£ t&ey come to fight, yes.

Q

Is this located somewhere in the Commonwealth

of Pennsylvania, a file on each one of these fighters?
A

No. There is a file —

their license and execute a form.

as they come in they get
They fill out a form

whether they have been licensed before, their age, their
employment, et cetera.

There has, to my knowledge, never been

an accurate compilation of data on each fighter.

I require

die promoter to get it as the fighters come to fight.
Q

When was the last legislative audit of the Athletic

 Commission done?
Maybe
j

Mr. Dario can answer that.

MR. DARIO:

Previous to the one that we did this

winter, there was, to my knowledge, never one done.

In other

i

words, we completed one this winter, February.

Prior to that

there was never one done prior to that time.
MR. BINNS: The Athletic Commission has been the
poor sister in the State Department for as long as I can
remember.
BY REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES:
Q

You have read this audit?

A

Yes.

Q

You have been the Commissioner since?

A

Since 1980. I agree with everything that is in

the audit by and large.
Q

You are essentially in agreement with everything

that is in this?
A

I think the bottom line in this audit is that we

have not been given the backup that is necessary to run an
athletic commission.

And I say that from having read the audit

and having discussed it personally with Mr. Dario and having
cooperated with Mr. Dario in writing of it much to the
chagrin of the then incumbent members of the State Department.
There was a point when I told Mr. Dario that if he wanted to
come and get a key from me to go to the office at twelve

 o'clock midnight, because he wasn't being given the information.
REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Representative Linton.

REPRESENTATIVE LINTON:
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Not at the moment.

Representative Schuler.

REPRESENTATIVE SCHULER:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

BY REPRESENTATIVE SCHULER:
Q

Page 38 of the report, sir, it is confusing.

It

appears the auditors attended five professional wrestling
exhibitions and at these exhibitions they found that all the
rules that were established were being violated,

I am down at

the bottom of the page.
A

I know.

I am looking now when they say for example.

Q

Then it goes on to say on page 39, "In short, the

Commission's regulations are designed to regulate a genuine
competitive sport.

Not commercial professional wrestling as it

now exists in the Commonwealth."
i

A

That is true.

Q

Now, if you were to enforce the rules that you now

have, would professional wrestlingr as we know it, as an
exhibition, be allowed in Pennsylvania?
A

Probably not.

Q

Probably not, you say.

Does that mean that maybe

we should have a separate set of rules for professional
wrestling?

 A

That is exactly what it means.

Q

Would you recommend that?

A

Yes.

I think that the rule, it is kind of like the

t

tail wagging the dog.

I think the rules of wrestling would

have to be such as to demonstrate a clear dichotomy between
wrestling and boxing which you don't really have now.

You

woul,d have to really go along and see what happens in a
wrestling match and take from that, that which you think is
wholesome.

Codify that as being allowed and see what is

unwholesome and prohibit that.
Q

Whose standards are we going to use, sir?

A

Yours.

In other words, you make the laws for the

Commonwealth of Pennsylvania that the people such as wrestling
promoters have to adhere to and participants have to adhere to.
I think that you should have the advice of people on the
Athletic Commission, but you are going to have to promulgate
the rules. We would be happy to help you.

I am only giving

you, in other words, you are asking me questions that I can
answer from having seen with my own eyes and having been
aroundtilingsthat you haven't.
Q

Are you suggesting that the legislature come up

with a statute rather than you make the regulations?
A

Well, it is kind of like a chicken or an egg thing.

We, because of the audit that has been done, it is apparent
that which was written back in 1955 and starting out in 1929 is

 no longer capable of being considered to be in the real world.
It needs to be revamped.

We should set out and do that and we

should do it with your help because you are the ones who are
going to have to write the statute.
Q

We do that through your legislative review.

A

Yes.

Q

But you do see a need for a different set of

regulations for the professional wrestler?:
A

I think so. As I say, wrestling, not only are the

fans, wrestling itself is a sui generis

thing.

It is not

like what you are going to see if you go to Lehigh University
and see kids wrestling.
Q

You are not going to see that.

I understand that. One final question, Mr.

i

Chairman.

In regard to the safety of our professional wrestlers

in Pennsylvania, maybe you don't have this information.

But

in Pennsylvania or throughout the nation how many professional
wrestlers have died?
A

I would say practically none.

Q

How many have been seriously injured?

A

I would say practically none.

I mean, you are

going to find out, that is not:to say that you are not going
to come up with somebody and say, oh, well, Hillbilly Jim
broke his leg or this or that.

Sure, there is going to be a

misstep here and there. Wrestlers are very talented athletes.
They go from city, if you took the wrestling schedule of Titan

 Sports, for instance, and see where there wrestlers go. One
day they are in Philadelphia.

The next day they are in Hershey.

The next day they axe in Pittsburgh.

The next day they are in

some other state. They are in great shape, but they are not
in wrestling to get hurt.
Q

Is that the difference why for a boxer you have

A

Sure, if a boxer can maim his opponent, if a boxer

a —

can deprive his opponent of the single most thing that
differentiates you and I from an animal, he's going to do it,
He's going to knock him out.

That's the best way to win a

boxing match.
Wrestlers are not going to do that. Wrestlers
don't get knocked out.

It is that simple.

They don't hit

with closed fists. They are not allowed to. And even if
they were allowed to, they wouldn't.
REPRESENTATIVE SCHULER:

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Mr. Mitchell.

BY MR. MITCHELL:
i

Q

Is there an executive director for our State

Athletic Commission?
A

The executive secretary.

Q

Executive secretary, sort of like interchangeable

type title?
t

r

(

 A

I don't know what the definition of executive

director is, but we have an executive secretary who functions
in Harrisburg who is an appointee of the Secretary of the
Commonwealth, is responsible to him and functions to coordinate
the efforts of the three offices.
MR. MITCHELL:

Thank you.

CHAIKMAN OLIVER:

Uepr£.&en*.ative Linton.

BY REPRESENTATIVE LINTON:
Q

Mr. Binns, I have served for the last several years

on numerous Sunset hearings and have looked at a large number
of Legislative Budget and Finance Committee reports.

I can't

remember seeing so many recommendations being made to change
i'

a commission.

All the reports that I have seen, it almost

looks like we are creating a commission rather than auditing
or in fact making some changes.

There seems to be a large

amount of administrative things that have not been done, a
i'

lack of computerization.

Many rules and regulations have not

beeri established by the Commission; just a random gleaning of
the information here.

Could you explain to me why our State

Athletic Commission is in such sad shape?
A

You just have to read the reports because there has

been absolutely no backup from the Department of State.

It is

i

that simple; none, no money.
elsewhere.

They took our money and spent it

No computer systems. The last Secretary of the

Commonwealth told the present Secretary of the Commonwealth

 that in his opinion boxing should be abolished.

If you've got

somebody at the helm like that, how are you going to run an
athletic commission?
Q

Well, there is always a lack of resources. We

never have enough money. We never have enough resources for
any of us to do what we think we need to do. Also, it looks tc
me that within the confines of the resources, it seems to me
that there was some policies that were not established.
there were some routines that were not established.
was ho consistency in the regulation.

That

That there

I was looking at the

issue with the thumbless glove that was done in the region of
Philadelphia but was not done statewide.

Some policies that

were established that did not go through the full Commission,
not voted on.

That seemed to be arbitrarily kind of imposed.

Thosetilingsare not things you need computers to do or
additional dollars. There seems to be some administrative
issues that one should in fact create within the Commission
itself.
A

Well, with respect to, the only one thing I heard

you say was the thumbless gloves. That was done statewide.
•

Q

Then I guess I misread the issue that said this was

in fact done within the Philadelphia region.
A

It was started there.

I did it.

Q

Oh, it was started in the Philadelphia region?

A

Yes. But when it was started in the Philadelphia

 region, we did it everywhere.

It just happened to be my idea.

The same with the head gear.
Q

Was that something that was voted on by the

Commission and established as a policy or was it something that
you 'started as Chairman of the Commission?
A

No — well, both.

meetings and then we did it.

It was verbalized at Commission
But we were never advised by anybody

in the Department of State until we had the new lawyer come in
that we had to go through any kind of a regulatory process.
Q

So, no one ever informed you there were procedures

that you had to follow in order to implement your policy?
A

No. Wait a minute, I'll say this.

It wasn't Kiss McKeever.

I misspoke.

It was under the last administration

that that was finally brought up. We didn't know anything about
that.
Q

Dealing with lack of resources, is it true that

there is a surplus?
A

That is what we are told there was last year and

in spite of that, they took that money and put it someplace
else.

I can't explain that to you.
Q

What kind of involvement does the Commission have

in the budget process?
A

In the past there has been practically no

involvement, none.

I can remember instances where they would

say to the executive secretary, you have to prepare some kind

 t

of a request.

But from what I saw, his suggestions were given

very short shrift and we were told that there just wasn't money.
Q

You were told there was not money.

formal requests for items that you felt

Have you made

the Commission needed

in your budget request or even during the course of once your
budget was okayed, what was the process?
A
State.

Those matters were handled within the Department of
They were not considered as Commission matters.

BY CHAIRMAN OLIVER:
Q

Mr. Binns, in regard to the question he asked, if

you made the request?
A

No, I did not.

The only request that I made were

the requests we would constantly make in the Commission
meetings, in the minutes of the meetings, with respect to
computerization and with respect to a Medical Advisory Board
and with respect to augmenting the salaries of the deputies.
BY REPRESENTATIVE LINTON:
Q

The lack of a Medical Advisory Board, was this

something that was requested in writing?

I understand the

Governor, who was in fact the Governor's appointees, the
Governor made appointees to the Advisory Board?
A
The way it is supposed to work is that the
Governor is supposed to make appointments from recommendations
•

that are made to him.
Q

Recommendations by the Commission or recommendatioi s

 by

~
A

For the Commission.

I forget the exact wording.

It may be from not the Commission itself but from, I believe
they come through the Department of State.

Now, what we did

during the past seven years, I made, I guess about eight
different public requests for the implementation of the
Medical Advisory Board and on six occasions. I called for the
banning of boxing or the suspension of boxing until a Medical
Advisory Board was created.
Q

When you say public requests are you talking about

the media?
A

I'm talking about letters and statements at public

Commission meetings.
Q

What was the response from either the Governor or

the secretary in regards to your requests for appointees to
the Medical Advisory Board?

Mr. Binns, if you could just give

a synopsis.
A

I'm going to give you a synopsis, but I think

there is something you should hear.
On July 20, 1982 I sent a memo to the Governor's
office requesting a Medical Advisory Board.

The contents of

that memo were discussed at the Commission meeting on December
1, 1982. Thereafter, I telephoned the Governor's office to
verify if my memo had been received and was told it was.
On August 12, 1983, we had another discussion at a

 meeting of the Athletic Commission.

On February 23, 1984, I

requested the then chief counsel to draft a letter, which he
did.. On March '84 I wrote to Dr. Miller, Secretary of Health
for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, I wrote to Or. Lyons,
the Chairman of the Board of Medical Education for the
Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

On May 1st, Mr. Pfeiffer and

I, the then chief counsel, requested an opinion of the
Ethics Commission concerning whether" we could fefit Dr. Lyons to
serve. We got it.

On June 26, '84, I recommended Dr. Northrup,

a neurosurgeon at Jefferson Medical Center.

That

recommendation was passed on to the Governor's office by a
memo dated June 29, 1984. Dr. Northrup submitted his
curriculum vitae.

That was forwarded to me by me to the

Department of State on June 3rd, 1984.
We then got the approval of the Ethics Commission
on July 12, 1984. Several months elapsed.
Secretary of

I wrote to the

the Commonwealth on October 19th, 1984. I told

him in my letter to him that we should suspend boxing until we
had the Medical Advisory Board.

At a meeting on October 17,

1984, I recommended again we suspend boxing until we had a
viable Medical Advisory Board and I discussed my recommendations
of Dr. Northrup again, Dr. Lyons again and a Dr. Lomax from
Philadelphia who.is a friend of.mine.
Q

I've seen you have made numerous requests. What

kind of response?

Did you ever get a formal letter from the

 Governor, secretary or anyone?
A

No.

Q

Nothing.

You just continued to make those written

requests and go on through the process but no response for any
of the appointing authority as to why or when they would
appoint somebody to the Advisory Board?
A

Right.

Q

That is incredible.

A

These are all matter of public record.

Q

Where are we now in terms of, under the new

administration, and I guess I'll have to hear from someone from
the secretary's office?
A

We are making great strides.

three names.

I have submitted

Commissioner Baer has submitted three names.

Commissioner Bednarik has submitted three names.

I think Bob

Grant has been here, and they have been appointed.
happy to tell you that right now.

I didn't know that before

today that they have been appointed.
them.

I am just

The Governor has appointed

We now have a functioning Medical Advisory Board for

the first time in eight years that I know of.
Q

Do the members of those boards receive any kind of

i

compensation for serving, per diem or —
A

Yes, I believe they will get a per diem stipend.

Q

Is that by regulation, is that by statute or under

statute?

 MR. MITCHELL:
Medical Advisory Board,

It is under statute regarding the

It is set forth under Article 4. It

sets forth that the Medical Advisory Board is created.

It sets

i.

forth the powers and the duties and the composition.

It says

nothing about the Commission, the State Athletic Commission
creating the Medical Advisory Board.

Of course, the Board is

appointed by the Governor and the member of the Board would
have varying terms.
MR. BINNS:

It is created by statute.

It is not

created by us.
REPRESENTATIVE LINTON:

Thank you very much.

Just

an editorial note, as I said earlier, it seems that we have a
lot to do with the State Athletic Commission.

I'm glad to see

we are making some inroads on some of those long-standing
issues.

It seems like this Committee has a lot to look at in

terms of making sure we have an Athletic Commission that we
can be proud of and can assure the health, welfare and safety.
Thank you very much.

No further questions, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Mr. Binns, on behalf of the

State Government Committee, I want to thank you very much
for appearing and presenting your testimony.
MR. BINNS: Thank you very much.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:
ten-minute break.
(Brief recess.)

At this time we'll take a

 CHAIRMAN OLIVER:
order, please.

This meeting will now come to

The next person to testify before this

Committee today will be Mr. Richard Baer, Commissioner.
may proceed.

You

Do you have prepared testimony?

MR. BAER:

No, sir, I do not.

CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Do you want to make an opening

statement of any kind?
MR. BAER:

No, sir, but I am prepared to answer

any questions.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Thank you very much.

Representative Schuler;
REPRESENTATIVE SCHULER:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

BY REPRESENTATIVE SCHULER:
Q

Commissioner Baer, welcome to our hearing.

A

Thank you.

Q

The only question I have, back last year I believe

there was a resolution, House Resolution 36, special commissioi
on boxing and you were chairman, I believe?
A

Yes, sir, I was.

I was appointed by Mr. Irvis.

Q

What I would like to know, some of your

recommendations that came out of that commission, are you
going to make any of those recommendations to boxing or to the
Athletic Commission?
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:
you speak into your mike?

Representative Schuler, will

 REPRESENTATIVE SCHULER: Yes.
MR. BAER:

Yes, sir.

I think it was very necessary,

I think Representative Irvis saw the need for safety in boxing.
So, he established this committee made up of members of the
House of Representatives.
committee.

There were some referees on this

Larry Holmes was on it and I had the honor of

serving on it.
I think what we did is we looked at boxing in the
state of Pennsylvania.

We had people come down from New York

and New Jersey and talk about their boxing programs to find
out how they were regulated.

Then we found out that

Pennsylvania is just about this far (indicating) from possibly
having the safest State Athletic Commission Safety Code within
the country.

So, I am very pleased with the code.

I think

the representatives in the years past have done a good job in
establishing a safety code.
think we can do that.

It needs a little buildup, but I

I think the Medical Advisory Board that

Mr. Binns referred to is certainly going to be very helpful
and I think with your help I think we can get the job done.
BY REPRESENTATIVE SCHULER:
Q

With respect to the resolution and your findings,

was there anything out of that that you feel should be
incorporated into the regulations at the present time on
boxing?

A

I think a l l of the matters, the use, they're talking

 about the head gear and changing of the head gear, all of this
8 tuff is going to take study before we can make any definite
recommendations to the Committee.
Q
with?

What recommendations did this committee come up

I don't mean to put you on the spot.
A

The committee has not come up with any

recommendations at this particular time.
Q

Is this still an active committee?

A

No.

It is an inactive committee but all the

material is being compiled to find out what is taking place
and what is going to be presented to you.
Q

When did this committee cease functioning?

A

It ceased functioning in September or October of

Q

Nothing has been put together yet to help us maybe

1986.

making some recommendations to this?
A

Nothing has been presented in a form whereas you

could make any changes in the safety code. There are
recommendations; the Medical Advisory Board, the computer,
things like that, that this came out of there which I think
were then implemented by the Secretary of State.
Q

In other words, the Medical Advisory Board

originated with this committee?

In other words, it was your

recommendation that that be set up?
A

That is correct, with Mr. Binns and the commission

 before me that you heard testimony to.
Q

Is there anything else in your estimation that

should be incorporated into -A

As I said, the safety code for the state of

Pennsylvania, in my opinion, is just about that close
(indicating) from being number one in the country.

The area

that, I am looking at is the area of the examinations that the
Chairman has referred to, the medical .examinations for the
fighters, things of this nature.

These were all matters

we discussed very thoroughly and money was the bottom line.
Q

Is that your major responsibility on the commission?

A

No, sir.

Q

You do everything?

A

Yes, sir, in western Pennsylvania.

Q

I just wanted to clarify that.

I am a commissioner and I run the —

Do you have any

personal recommendations to make to this Committee?
A

I just came out of a medical symposium in New York

as representative of the commission.

New York, I guess, is one

of the most progressive commissions in the country and they
agreed with what our law says and I agree with this also.
That is the two most important people.and
safety of the fighters.
an ex-fighter.

insurance for the

That's the bottom line with me being

Safety of the fighters is so important.

The

two most important people to that are the referee. And the
second person is the ringside physician. These two people witl

 proper training, and being under the supervision of this
commission, have the power to insure for the safety of those
i

fighters. And in this way does two things. It doesn't only
makei the fighter fight safe and the fighter safer, it also
insures for any liability against the Commonwealth of
Pennsylvania.

I think as commissioners that is our

responsibility. We insulate the state from being sued for
negligent acts by the fighters, second, the managers or
whomever it may be.
REPRESENTATIVE SCHULER:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Commissioner Baer.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Representative Miller.

REPRESENTATIVE MILLER:

Thank you, Chairman Oliver.

BY REPRESENTATIVE MILLER:
Q

If the Commissioner would be kind enough to give us

a target date on when that resolution report is going to
be available, it might be helpful to us with respect to our
drafting requirements.
A

I will make contact with the chairman of our

committee today and I will find out and get back to you people
and let you know what it will be.

I am not sure what they

plan in that area, sir.
Q

I will tell you candidly, sir, we intend to sit

down within the weeks coming for an initial draft.

If you

wish to have any significant import"includedas a. jresult_of /

 yo^T^ortj^itJought
A

to come to us in the near future.

We will make sure it is in your office at your

earliest convenience.
REPRESENTATIVE MILLER:
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Are there any other questions?

(No response.)
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

If not, thank you for appearing.

The next scheduled person to speak, to testify
rather, will be Linda McMahon, Executive Vice-president of
Titan Sports with Rick Santorum, Esquire, and Jack Krill,
i
i

Esquire. You may proceed.
t

MS. MCMAHON:

Good morning.

Knowing how boring it

is to sit and listen while someone reads through testimony, I
ask your indulgence while I attempt to do just that.
very long.

It isn't

I think it just pretty much gives you a little idee

where we are coming from.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER: Would you turn the microphone on?
i

MS. MCMAHON:
this to be heard.

My children wouldn't think I needed

I will read through this testimony for you.

I have already introduced myself.

I am Linda McMahon.

I am

representing Titan Sports, Inc., the corporate entity behind
the World Wrestling Federation. With me are my attorneys,
Jack Krill and Rick Santorum of the law firm of Kirkpatrick
and Lockhart in Harrisburg, and Bob Marella, an agent for
Titan Sports, better known to all of you as Gorilla Monsoon,

 former WWF wrestler and current TV commentator.
I am here to share with you some insight on the
world of professional wrestling and how it fits, or perhaps
how it doesn't fit, in the regulatory scheme of the
Pennsylvania State Athletic Commission.
I would like to give you some background about the
company that I represent.

Titan Sports, Inc., although not

always known by that name, is a third generation, family-owned
business in operation since the early *20's.

The present owner

and president of Titan Sports is my husband, Vince McMahon, who
has succeeded both his father and grandfather in this industry.
I am the Executive Vice-president of Titan Sports, Inc. and have
been actively involved since 1972. Titan Sports is an
entertainment company and our primary product is professional
wrestling.

It is important to understand that we organize all
>

aspects of our professional wrestling exhibitions, from booking
the arenas, booking the talent, promoting the matches, executiig
the event and coordinating all facets of our television
production. We are a fully integrated company, and all the
work is done in-house. We sponsored over 7500 events in 1986
in the continental United States in such major arenas as
i

Madison Square Garden, the Philadelphia Spectrum and the
Pittsburgh Civil Arena as well as the Hershey Park Arena and
the Johnstown War Memorial.

In 19,86 we sponsored 77 events in

Pennsylvania which were attended by. over 400,000 people

These

 77 events generated, as a result of the five percent license
tax, over $194,000 for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

What

is hot part of your notes, gentlemen, that in addition we paid
$44,000 for State Athletic Commission officials, license and
permits.

And above the taxes and fees charged as a result of

the State Athletic Commission, we also paid over $275,000 in
other municipal permits, licenses and fees for a total off of
our gross of about 13 percent that we paid to the Commonwealth
of Pennsylvania.
We attract these large numbers of people because we
provide quality, family entertainment for all age groups and
for people from all walks of life. Unlike professional boxers,
professional wrestlers are not competing in contests where
points are scored, and the winner determined, by potentially
injurious blows struck at an opponent.

Instead, like the

skilled athletes you see in the circus or the Harlem
Globetrotters, our athletes are well-conditioned professionals
who are the best at what they do. And what they do is
entertain people.

I am pleased that the Legislative Budget

and Finance Committee, in its Sunset Audit of the Commission,
recognized these basic facts, because they should lead to
major changes in Pennsylvania's way of regulating wrestling
events.
As the Sunset Audit found, many of the State
Athletic Commission's statutory provisions and regulations are

 antiquated and either not enforced or enforced arbitrarily.
More importantly, these regulations require a considerable
expenditure of the Athletic Commission's time and state funds,
even though no need for these services has ever been
demonstrated with respect to professional wrestling.

The law,

for example, presently requires that a Commission employee be
in attendance at every wrestling exhibition.

To comprehend

the absurdity of this requirement you need only to compare
this level of enforcement with other state-regulated activities
in which the Commonwealth has very strong safety and health
reasons to require strict enforcement.

For example, does the

LCB assign an agent to every tavern?

Does the Game Commission

assign a game warden to every hunter?

To such questions, the

answer is obviously no, and these are areas where real dangers
exist to society.

There is no such danger in wrestling and no

Commission enforcement is necessary.

There are many more

exacfjples of useless and even counterproductive Commission
regulations that I could give.
i

The audit performed by the Legislative Budget and
Finance Committee recognized the need for a different approach
by the Commonwealth to professional wrestling.

Page 37 of the

report says "Many of these (existing) statutory and regulatory
requirements are unrealistic, and major revisions in the
r

regulatory environment for these activities are necessary."
The audit also recognized that the State Athletic Commission

i'

 has been generally ineffective in administering its regulations,
such as they are.
We coupletely agree with the basic findings of the
Sunset Audit.

It is time for major changes in the operation of

the State Athletic Commission.

We believe, however, that you

should go farther than the recommendations made by the staff of
the Legislative Budget and Finance Committee, and completely
deregulate professional wrestling.
There are at least 21 states which do not regulate
professional wrestling and, of those, several states have
deregulated professional wrestling within the last five years,
including such states as Connecticut and Delaware.

In

addition, the neighboring states of West Virginia and Ohio do
not regulate professional wrestling, the regulations are much
more limited than the Pennsylvania scheme.

The other states

appear to be more concerned with effectively taxing
professional wrestling as opposed to regulating its activity.
The Sunset Audit fails to demonstrate any real neec
for the Commission to continue to license and oversee wrestling
events.

Improving the operation of the Commission would add

nothing to the many precautions that we already take, as
concerned citizens and as prudent business persons, to protect
the health and safety of our athletes and our patrons.
I cannot emphasize enough that the safety of our
fans and our wrestlers is of paramount importance to us.

 Nothing is more important than safety.
is in our wrestling talent.

Our biggest investment

I don't think I have to tell you

how much prestige and money it would cost Titan Sports if Hulk
Hogan or Andre the Giant or any number of our wrestlers were
seriously injured and unable to perform.
Let me assure you that we do everything in our
power to insure safety.

Our wrestlers are professional

athletes who are required to train daily to maintain optimal
physical fitness thereby reducing the risk of injury.

Our

wrestling rings are specially constructed under our supervision
and are inspected on a nightly basis.

Our highly trained

crews transport, erect and maintain the rings. Spare parts are
carried on our trucks. Nothing is left to chance.
While wrestling is undeniably a very physical form
of entertainment, we have never had a fatality in the over 67
years we have been promoting professional wrestling.

The

safety of professional wrestling was also recognized on page 1:
of the Sunset Audit, "Neither the Commission's Executive
Secretary nor a major wrestling promoter with whom the auditors
spokfc knew of any deaths or serious injuries having occurred
during a professional wrestling match."

As additional safety

precautions, we always have an ambulance on call or on the
premises as well as a physician in attendance.

All of our

wrestlers have routine physical examinations. We take these
precautions even in states that have deregulated or have no

 regulations for professional'wrestling.
Our concern for safety, however, does not end with
the protection of our wrestlers. We recognize that if a fan
has a bad experience at a wrestling match, not only could it
cause us legal problems and the loss of that fan's patronage,
but it will ultimately reflect badly upon our reputation for
safe, quality entertainment.

Crowd control is handled in

conjunction with the various arenas in which we appear, the
same as any concert or promotion.

I can assure you that public

arenas or school gymnasiums don't want unruly, destructive
crowds any more than the Commonwealth.

If, however, we feel

that a particular arena is not staffing enough security, we
will employ extra security at our own expense. We have not hac
any crowd control problems as a result of either unruly fans ox
an oversold arena in Pennsylvania.

And I might add,

gentlemen, nor in any other state.

Of course, for the mutual

protection of ourselves and our fans we have a substantial
amount of liability insurance coverage for each and every
event that we sponsor.
The Sunset Audit questioned the feasibility of
deregulating professional wrestling in the absence of a league,
as in football or basketball, that would provide
self-regulation.

In response, I would simply say that the

Harle.m Globetrotters, the Ice Capades and the circus do not
belong to a league but they are not regulated.

In those

 I

(

activities the legislature has implicitly recognized the high
level of skill of the performers and the efforts made by these
organizations to insure their performers' safety. We seek the
same recognition today.
There is much more that I could say in support of
our proposal, but there is not enough time for it today. Jack
and Rick will be available to work with you and your staff in
the future, and will provide you with any additional information
you need.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you.

I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Thank you very much.

MR. KRILL: Mr. Chairman, excuse me. We have.also
provided to the Committee a summary of state regulations of
professional wrestling.

That should appear as an exhibit to

the;testimony.
BY CHAIRMAN OLIVER:
Q
athletes.

You speak of your concern for the welfare of your
In fact, you have a physician as well as an

ambulance available. How do you feel about these wrestlers
cutting themselves with razors?

Do you have someone there to

stitch them up or do they require any stitches?

How do you

feel about that?
A

I might add that I am aware there are past

practices of that happening.

I can assure you within the

World Wrestling Federation it is not permitted or condoned.

:

 Q

It Is not permitted?

A

Nor condoned.

And we have never offered more money

to a wrestler for cutting himself nor would we ever do that.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Any other questions?

Representative Miller.
i

REPRESENTATIVE MILLER:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

BY REPRESENTATIVE MILLER:
Q

Welcome before our Committee, Mrs. McMahon.

A

Thank you for letting me speak.

Q

Our pleasure.

Could you give the Committee a brief

overview of the industry you are in from an economic
perspective?

Obviously, the World Federation's success, i.e.,

Titan's success particularly in the past five or six years is
certainly commendable from a business aspect.

You have

excellent marketing people, excellent promotion people. You axe
obviously popular with the public.
successful.

Certainly it is economically

The question I am getting to is one I would really

like you to phrase for me. What is your Competition all about?
I asked that question because you outline your interest in
safety in the business and you can really only speak for your
business. Your interest in providing liability protection,
arena security.

I wonder if you might comment from your

knowledge on what your competition is doing. Obviously, there
are business folks out there who see your success who want to
spin off on it.

Offer a similar product to maybe cutting those

 t

t

very corners that you suggest that your particular business is
very strong on, particularly the safety questions and the
appropriate taxpaying questions.
A

I guess if I had to sum it up, I can't really

speak to what other organizations do. X am not privy to their
policies and procedures.
that

I guess the way to address that is

we believe we have set a standard within the industry.

The public is accustomed to that standard.

It is, you have a

choice of watching the NFL football game or you want to watch
the USFL.

The USFL didn't succeed very long.

The marketplace,

in our public, believe it or not, is quite sophisticated in
what they do like and what they don't like. We have a greater
interaction with our fans at our events and they look for
quality talent.

Basically what is necessary to have a

successful operation is no different in wrestling than any
other.

If you want your wrestling stars to be recognized, you

have to have a forum to present them to the public.

Our forum

is pur television show.
Our competitors are certainly trying to produce
their shows and get on television stations so that their
talent can be presented to the public.

I must tell you that

while there are a couple of other organizations that are making
good progress and are healthy competitors, which we welcome,
there is still a wide gap. What we hope is.that by setting a
standard which others have to come up to, we will improve

•

 the qualify of everything that is going on within our industry.
It is certainly not something that can happen within a short
term.

Quite frankly, I hope they don't have great success.

But I would certainly say that we are competing in an open
marketplace and we are establishing a standard that other
organizations have to live up to. That follows through in our
television show.

That follows through in our publications

that we publish in-house that cross our talents. We have
upgraded those publications in general though they still have
a long ways to go.

There is certainly, I think, a marketplace

reaction to some of the other smaller outfits who are not comirg
through with quality.

It really has nothing to do with size.

If a small company comes in, and we certainly have been small
and we operated as a small company, but if your goal is always
to produce quality

in family entertainment, then you have a

measure of success or at least everything you do you feel like
producing quality.
I think evey competitor has to be aware whether
they come into a local high school to produce an event, whether
they go into the Civic Arena, the Pittsburgh Civic Arena, or
the Philadelphia Spectrum, that your public must be protected
and they must be entertained.

No police commissioner, no

municipality that has to issue a license or a permit for a
public gathering or any sort of performance, is going to allow
those kinds of practices to continue. We certainly protect

 ourselves with liability insurance because things do happen.
Unfortunately, if a fan slipa on a banana peel at the
Philadelphia Spectrum and hits his head, our insurance pays fox
t

that. Whether or not it is a result of poor maintenance on the
part of the Spectrum or whatever. We cannot afford not to
insure safety nor can any other organization that is dealing
with the public. You simply cannot afford it or you will be
out of business.
Q

Thank you.

Just two brief follow-up questions.

While you certainly present to the Committee very persuasive
i;

testimony from what the Committee appreciates as an established
business in the industry, one with reasonably good credentials,
there is a choice of argument for deregulation.

I still have

the reservation of the difference in the wide gap, as you call
it, if we deregulate for your purposes. We are also
deregulating the other promoters who perhaps may be exploiting
their professionals and indeed indirectly exploiting the public
by whipping up too much hysteria in the arena, i.e., fire and
panic act problems in a crowded arena.

Is there a way we can

differentiate among the businesses in the business of
exhibition wrestling and perhaps regulate those that have
problems and permit those that do not to be self-regulated?
Is there any suggestion in that that indeed you can make to
the Committee?

We don't have a great deal of alternative if

indeed you have that kind of operations causing problems. The

 legislature will indeed look at regulations recognizing you,
as a responsible business entity 'paying~yd"ur~taxesT"paying Jatttm^ojp to the health, safety arealsojpaying the price_"of that regulation.
A

I guess really the only way I can respond to that

is saying that I am not sure there is no need for regulation.
I'm only saying that I think regulations exist in other forms
and that there is double regulation going on in many instances.
I believe if a small promoter or a promoter that is not as well
recognized is coming into a particular town, I don't know of an
instance where you don't have to have at least the permit or
if you are going into a high school or whatever, you have to
provide proper liability insurance and assure the superintendent
of the board of education that you are providing proper
police and if the police are involved, the fire marshall is
involved, all of those different entities. I mean, if fights
break out in a crowd, that can be a civil disobedience
resulting in criminal charges that can be filed against those
people.

I think that certainly anytime there is any kind of

a performance of that nature, the local police department
should definitely be involved in assigning security and helping
to regulate those performances.

There are certainly adequate

measures available now under our civil services that should
provide regulations for a lot of those different entities.
I guess I just feel that regulations are already in effect.
We don't need the regulations of the State Athletic Commission,

 which quite frankly, I must say in general instances, we
certainly have a better knowledge of what it takes to control
a crowd than what a State Athletic Commission official who has
never had the responsibility of putting on an exhibition, of
maintaining crowd control.

It is our own policy, the policies

of most arenas that we are in to evict any kind of disturbance.
•

it

*

If people come in who are going to be throwing things in the
ring, they are immediately evicted by the building security or
the arena.

No facility, no municipality, no state can afford

to have those kinds of practices going on and I don't think
that they can be regulated by the State Athletic Commission.
We are fully in agreement that those practices should not
happen.
Q

It is just that the proper agency should handle it.
1 think that is a very salient point you make and

I want to share with my Committee members that once the State
Athletic Commission has issued the proper fees, licenses, et
cetera and an exhibition begins, it becomes your responsibility
as the promoter with respect to the liability, et cetera. The
Commonwealth does not share any liability in that.

It has been

a strong argument for deregulation.
One final question, and that is, as we sit down in
our research product to develop regulations, with your permission
we would appreciate the flexibility to call on your counsel
with!respect to the insurance question and if we might call on
i

in the future for advice, Mr. Krill, on the types of liability

 insurance you buy which you feel is necessary in the industry.
We would find that information very helpful in addressing the
insurance liability question with respect to exhibition. We
aren't experts in that subject matter and we would need some
assistance.
A

Could I just let you know right now, peripherally,

there are many of the arenas in which we play that carry their
own Insurance requirements. Whether they have been mandated
by municipality, if they are in fact municipal arenas . or
whether or not whether for their own protection realized what
the coverage must be in order for them to exist?
We carry no less than a million dollars coverage
for every event and we have an umbrella which will go up to
three million dollars for liability.

There are some instances

where you need to exceed that. When we had Wrestlemania at
Pontiac Silver Dome, we went up to five million dollars in
liability insurance.

So, those are just general parameters.

REPRESENTATIVE MILLER:

Thank you for joining us.

; We~a"p~p'reci"ate"ybur assistance^,.Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Representative Battisto.

REPRESENTATIVE BATTISTO:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

BY REPRESENTATIVE BATTISTO:
Q

I would like to commend you on your articulate

presentation.

Let me just begin by saying this. How does the

regulation of professional wrestling interfere with your

i

 operation or how does it bother you?
A

I almost hate to get into answering that question.

Q

But I would like you to.

A

Only because it looks as though we are taking sides

and throwing stones. Before I answer that question, I would
like to first say that Commissioner Binns and his commissioners,
I think, have done a job what they believe was in the best
interest of the public.

I just think there are instances where

professional wrestling, not being considered a sport, should
not be under this"xdgutation.
Having said that, there have been instances where our
wrestlers have been fined for perhaps not being examined
before going into the ring when in fact the examination was
checking their pulses, listening to their heart or looking at
• '

their eyes.
We have had instances where commissioners have
threatened to close our event because we wouldn't set up tables
at ringside and put white tablecloths on them so that members
of the family or other press media could sit at ringside.
That is a dangerous spot to sit at our event.

And I have been

flatly told the event would be closed down if that didn't
happen.
We have had instances where some of our wrestlers
were fined or suspended and we would recieve a suspension
notice for Hulk Hogan or a couple of our top stars that would

 be in effect two days before our event in the Philadelphia
Spectrum in which all our advertising were in place. We have
had instances where the commissioners come in and stated that
because of the ring setup, the ring setup wasn't proper, they
weren't going to allow the event to go on.

There are a lot of

picayune things, if you are in an arena and you are trying to
present your program, they are really not things that affect
the public safety or they affect the safety of the wrestlers.
There are those instances which it is simply a hassle to have
to deal with them.

If you have a commissioner who has the

authority to close down your event, and mind you, if you want
a riot on your hands, walk out and say your event has been
cancelled.

That is when instances of public safety can really

become a big argument.
So, there are times when just to get our event in
process, there are rules and regulations, in order to have our
event sanctioned, we have to notify the State Athletic
Commission anytime we book an event.

So that they have a

list of the dates and times so that they can supply the public
officials that are necessary.

We won't get sanctioning

notices. We won't even know if our event can go on. We always
assume that it can and it hasn't been stopped because we
haven't gotten a sanctioning notice.

It is always dangling

out there.
I think the one other thing that is really almost
•t

 more Important to our event It3elf, our event comes as a
package. We have our announcers, ve have our referees, we
have our timekeepers. We have everything that is necessary
for our event.

For the state to appoint to our form of

entertainment an announcer who cannot pronounce the names of
our wrestlers or a referee who is not necessarily part of our
event and may not act accordingly in the ring for our
particular kind of performance, a timekeeper who, I don't know
why we have to have him and pay him anyway.
every night just for a timekeeper.

That is 40 to $50

Those are the things that

are really impediments to our performance..
Q

I won't pounce upon white tablecloths but I will

the way a ring is set up. You did say you think the Commission
is sincere in doing what they think they are doing with
respect to safety.

With respect to the way the ring is set up,

the Commission must have standards, I guess. From the
standpoint of safety, my son was a high school and college
wrestler so he wasn't even backed up with ropes and so forth.
I've seen them, but I don't understand all the intimacies in
setting up a ring.

But you obviously think that your ring is

set up safely, but the Commission has certain standards, I
guess, as far as elasticity of the ropes maybe or whatever it
might be?
A

No, that is not really the question.

It is really

the Commissioners being able to sit inside our barricade.

Our

 wrestlers come out over the top rope. You know, there is
activity which they are flung out the ring over the top rope.
We set up a barricade around the ring so that no one is
allowed inside that inner area. There have been instances
when it is mandated that the physician must sit inside, the
Commissioners must sit inside there ostensibly to better view
the performance. Well, it is really the best seat in the house
for viewing.

But it is not a safe place to be.

So, we have

objected to that.
There have been instances when shooting our
television show when we have asked not to have anyone within a
certain are because it absolutely, you know, it is a
detriment to the program which we were presenting and it servec
no purpose.

That is what I am saying.

If it served a purpose.

i

Judges in a boxing match have to sit, and I have been on
promotions of boxing matches, judges have to sit at a certain
height.

They have to be able to look into the ring.

They have

to be able to watch the boxers who are in there, to watch for
their eyes, to do all kinds of things relative to their safety.
It is just not necessary in a professional wrestling match.
Our rings, to further answer that question, are
designed by an engineer.
they are constructed.

They are inspected every night as

They are just the best available.

The

suspension, the plywood that goes underneath, everything and
we carry everything spare to fix it on the spot.

 Q

Thank you.

I take it that you are one of the

largest maybe promoters of professional wrestling in the
country.

7000 some events is no small operation.

A

No, we are the largest.

Q

You are the largest. You promoted the event in

Pontiac, Michigan?
A

Yes.

Q

You say you mostly, you mostly promote wrestling.

What other kinds of things
A

do you promote?

Well, quite frankly, now we are only promoting

professional wrestling.

But we do other things in conjunction

with that, like produce a record album.
Q

I'm sort of inferring that maybe most of your

promotions are in states which wrestling is deregulated.

The

reason why I'm inferring that is you said last year you
events
promoted 7500/and 77 in Pennsylvania. You don't have to be
a genius to figure that is about one percent in one of the
largest states in the country.

Am I correct in inferring that

probably you promote more events in states that do not regulate
at present?
A

We certainly promote all over the United States.

What is currently happening now is that because of our
organization,cities and states are really competing for our
events insofar as our own scheduling goes. When we have to
schedule an event that is going to be in Pennsylvania, we have

 to schedule an event that is going to be in Ohio, and the event
that has the potential for making the most money, and the event
certainly is not going to be regulated by an outside commission,
it is a business choice to have the event take place in Ohio.
Q

You have answered my question.

How about

Michigan, does Michigan have —
A

Michigan does have a state athletic commission but

the regulations are far less.
Q

You said in your testimony that the regulations in

other states tend to be directed more in the area of revenue
collecting and not so much the activity itself.
A

That is correct.

Just recently, in the past two

years, deregulated in the state of Connecticut.

They did,

however, maintain their taxing provisions.
Q

Now, you do say, and, of course, the Commissioner

indicated, too.
anyone here.

I don't think anyone is trying to fool

The fact that you do present an exhibition,' it's

entertainment.

My son would make a clear distinction between

the two kinds.

That is not in any way. to cast any aspersions

at all. They are two different things.
You did compare yourself perhaps to the Harlem
Globetrotters and the Ice Capades, some other activities like
that.

I think we will have to admit there is less contact in

those kinds of activities. However, you are saying in
essence that they are exhibitions and there are no leagues for

 Ice Capades or for the Harlem Globetrotters.

There is no

wrestling, no professional wrestling league, therefore, you
can take care of regulating your own activities.
to collect revenue, so be it.

If we want

But you can regulate your

activity and that is in essence what you are saying?
A

Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE BATTISTO:

Thank you.

Thank you,

Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Representative Linton.

REPRESENTATIVE LINTON:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Chairman.
BY REPRESENTATIVE LINTON:
Q

A couple of questions I want to ask and I am glad

I have a chance to ask them.

One relating to, I hope I'm not

being redundant since I was away from the.Committee for a
moment, a question of referees. What functions do referees
serve in a wrestling match?
A

As part of our performance?

Q

Yes.

A

Referees are there to, first of all, in a

wrestling event, certainly we have established that part of
the performance of our event is the establishment of certain
rules.

A winner is announced by a pin or disqualification,

et cetera, et cetera, where the wrestlers, obviously, could not
announce that themselves.

There must be some regulatory person

 In the ring to make those announcements and assess the winner.
It is part of our event.
Q

And that's the function that the referee serves?

A

Yes.

Q

Is the referee also the announcer?

A

No, not in our event.

Q

Who provides the referee?

A

In this state?

i'

!

Q

Yes.

A

The state supplies the referee.

Q

Does that referee, there is no points involved in

terms of —

so, for instance, in boxing the referee is

separating two combatants.

He is providing the points, some

ruling in that, making sure that the regulations are being
prescribed to according to the match.

Those kinds of things

aren' t require^ of"responsible to t^ejref eree in a wrestling match?
A

Not from a technical point of proclaiming the

winner of the match, no.
Q

So, in that respect, in other states you provide

your own referee?
A

Yes.

Q

Pennsylvania, the State Athletic Commission

provides the referee?
A

(Nod of the head.)

Q

At what cost to you?

 A

I think that in the Audit Report — no, those are

licensing fees, I think that a referee is between 75 and $120
and 1 would have to look, somewhere in that range.
Q

How about announcers?

A

Same. They are all run about the same.

Q

You also have announcers that you have to get from

the State Athletic Commission?
A

And a timekeeper.

Q

What function does the announcer perform?

A

His function is supposedly to get in the ring, to

announce the matches, the combatants who are going to be there,
our performers. And if any time during the evening we have,
you know, we would like them to announce the upcoming match or
if the Spectrum has anything they want to announce during our
matches, that is his function.
Q

Is that something you do yourself in other states?

A

Yes.

Q

The timekeeper, you also get from the State

Athletic Commission?
A

Yes.

Q

This is not an official event to the point that

there would be violations where one combatant would win ttfie-""
event"over the other if "there"was" some" problems with"time ribTj
-being kept properly?
A

No.

 Q

What function does the timekeeper have —

I mean,

it seems to me that the announcer could be the timekeeper in
essence in terms of function?
A

In part of what we do, it is part of the scenario

what goes on.

If an announcer wants to come back and say the

winner in one fall In five minutes and 25 minutes and 25
seconds is Hulk Hogan.
Q

It is part of what is going on.

What I am saying, from a technical point of view,

from a point of regulation of an athletic event where you may
need a professional timekeeper is someone who will have the
official time because that event involves two combatants.
A

Not necessary.

Q

That's not necessary?

A

No.

Q

In regards to a referee where you don't have the

t

kind of officiating that is necessary in an event where you
have two combatants where there is purses, involved between
those two combatants, the referee is not necessary?
A

No.

Q

In regards to an announcer who is basically the

ceremonial person which we have at theaters and other kind of
events which could be somebody else that is on your own
payroll, that is not necessary?
A

Not necessary.

Q

I'm just trying to draw, for members of the

 Committee, trying to figure out what aspects of our regulatory
process and what we are in fact requiring people to pay for
that is in fact may not be necessary.

I think that is something

i

that the Committee would have to look into, but I think that is
in fact an issue and a concern of mine.
You are the largest association or promotional
organization of wrestlers. What are your other competitors?
Even though you don't compete directly, what are the other
people who are in the marketplace outside of Titan?
A

Do you mean organizational names?

Q

Yes.

A

There is a gentleman by the name of Jim Crockett

who is based in Charlotte, North Carolina.

He does promote,

X think, under Jim Crockett Promotions or it could be NWA in
the state of Pennsylvania.

The AWA, which is a mid west

organization, I believe, has brought some matches to
Pennsylvania.

Other than a few individual promoters, those

are the only ones that I know of and I don't know the names of
individual promoters.
Q

All those operations are in fact self-contained in

that you don't compete against one another like leagues, but
they have their own internal organizations?

of

A

That is right.

Q

That performs t h e i r "performances aridj^controls a l l

theirj^rformances?
A

Yes.

 Q

Your liability insurance, you made reference to

the fact that you do carry liability insurance that covers
both the wrestlers and also the observers or those who are in
attendance, an audience?
A

Our liability insurance does not cover a wrestler

if he is injured in the ring.

Our liability insurance covers

a wrestler if he is injured on the way to the ring or a part of
the general liability coverage at the arena that would be provided.
•:3o that;alTo"f our^ patrons, a wrest^r.is^pyered under any of those
circumstances that would treat him as a patron at the facility.
If he slipped in the locker room or taking a shower, you know,
if any of those kind of things happened.

His actual

performance in the ring is not covered by our liability
insurance.
Q

You made reference in your remarks of physical

examinations that you require annually.
A

Yes.

Q

We heard earlier in our testimony that even in the

boxing commission the lack of a thorough physical examination
as required, you do the same type of examination in your
unregulated states as well as those who are regulated?
A

That is right.

It is part of what we do internally.

Q

In the state, I think there was reference to

Michigan, is it, where you had this large —
A

Wrestlemania.

 Q

Wrestlemania?

A

Wrestlemania Three.

Q

Wrestlemania Three, okay.

My daughters would love

that. Wrestlemania Three, what would prohibit you from having
a similar event here in Pennsylvania?
A

A facility to house that many for that large of a

crowd. We actually have talked to the Philadelphia Spectrum
and the Pittsburgh Civid Arena for Wrestlemania One and
Wrestlemania Two about having our events in this facility.
Certainly it is available. We don't always need an arena that
will house 93,000. That was a spectacular event. Wrestlemania
won't always have that kind of an event and we will use smaller
buildings.

The Spectrum on two different occasions was not

available.

But the other thing that really was a determining

factor, we had to look at in addition to a five percent tax
that we already ~p dy to the State Athletic Commission, if we
have an event in the state of Pennsylvania and we broadcast it
or cablecast it for television, we are taxed an additional five
percent on top of that for any of the fees that we would
receive for that broadcast.
extent.

So, it prohibits to a great

I mean, when we can go to another state and have the

same kind of facility, the same kind of support, the same kind
of municipality, it simply becomes a business decision not to
be there.
Q

Michigan still regulates wrestling, is that

 correct?
A

Yes, they do.

Q

Let me ask you something.

In terms of the

referees, the announcers, the timekeepers, what is the
requirement of Michigan?

Do you provide your own or do you

also get those?
A

No, we provide our own.

Q

Could you also tell me some other things and if

anyone else that you have with you could help with that, could
you also tell me some other areas that are regulated in
Pennsylvania that are not regulated in Michigan, just using
that as an example?
A

All I can say in terms of Michigan, for instance,

if we go there to have an event, primarily it is a revenue
process that the state is looking to. Do they want an agent
there to collect the tax?

There is not a great deal of

regulation that is involved.

They did, when Wrestlemania came

to town, we had a lot of commissioners suddenly appear that

we hadn't talked to or heard ! from before.
overseeing agency.

They_haye an

I am not saying there are not some areas

where they want to supply us whatever, but by and large it is
a much mareslaiaez-faire operation in the state of Michigan.
That was a roundabout way of answering your question, but I
really cannot be more specific than that.
Q

I think in our comparison with some of the

i

 information that you provide and also some of the information
from staff, I am sure that we will be able to draw some
comparisons between what we are doing here in Pennsylvania,.
v

l _e. F_s .1L-B- total deregulation and where we can go in between.

I think at some point we will begin to look at and assess.
Maybe we are regulating too far or too much.

Maybe we should

not be regulating at all. Maybe we should be somewhere in
between.

I think that is something that this Committee must

weigh and look at.
A

I think if I would have one statement, it would be

that, the question was asked me by one of the representatives
and I don't remember which one, your organization is top
flight.

How do we regulate smaller people who are coming in?

I guess what I have to say to that is, and I addressed it
briefly, I think the marketplace does some regulating.

But

also in those, we now promote in 40 some states, there are
also other promoters who promote around the country.

Even if

they are regionals or whatever, the statistics, no injuries,
no deaths, et cetera, et cetera, no crowd control problems,
persist around the country even in those states which are not
regulated.

Maybe attention isn't paid to detail like we give

in a lot of areas, but I think the suggestion that our crowds
might be incite to riot or that they could get totally out of
hand were it not for regulating, one regulating official being
there I think is absurd.

That certainly is not the case and

 it doesn't happen in other wrestling performances either. Any
more so than it would in any instance where there aren't
proper police or security people there regulating.

Things

i

might get out of hand when there is a crowd.
REPRESENTATIVE LINTON:
to

I am more fearful of going

a Philadelphia Flyers game or a Boston Garden Celtic-Lakers

game than I probably would be at a Wrestlemania Three, I would
thinjk. No further comments, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Representative Miller.

REPRESENTATIVE MILLER:

Thank you for a brief

question, Mr. Chairman.
BY REPRESENTATIVE MILLER:
Q

Ma'am, when you bring your show to Pennsylvania

and you have your block of employees, are you covered, either
your wrestlers or any of your staff, under Pennsylvania
Workmens.' Compensation law?
A
for us.
Q

Our wrestlers are independent contractors working
Certainly all of our staff are.
One quick question on the referee.

I have

observed a number of your productions on television and I have
visited them personally.

From watching them on television,

many times, frankly, I am amazed at the choreography and the
skills of the wrestlers in the ring, their act, so to speak.
It is well coordinated.

They do some fantastic maneuvers

with their body and avoid injury.

In part of your planning of

/

 the event and the practice of the wrestlers prior to it, in
their training, is part of their training having a company, so
to speak, referee as part of that match to assist with it and
in that regard if we put a referee in cold who is not familiar
with the abilities and the tricks or maneuvers that your
wrestlers do, could that be a detriment to their safety in the
ring?

Is there any argument with having your third person,

so to speak, to guarantee your act is able to come off without
undue injury to the participants?
A

First of all, let me correct one thing you said

in the beginning.

Our talents do not rehearse or practice.

These are very trained athletes. They don't practice for an
event at the Philadelphia Spectrum.
what they do.

There is a spontaneity to

That is attributable to their fantastic

condition that they are in.

There are certain moves, there

are certain holds, there are certain practices. But the

top

stars are the ones who are the best at their performance and
the charisma that they create with the crowd.

Certainly our

trained referees move into any of those situations.

It is

just a question of if a football referee is on the field, and
he has been doing it for many years, he knows if a play is
moving to the right, he best be at a position for that charge
that is coming at him.

It becomes, too, a sixth sense with

the referees that we have in our organization.

It becomes a

skill and it is a skill that is gained though many years of

 experience in doing it.

It can be detrimental to both the

wrestlers and the referee himself if he is not skilled in what
he is doing.
There are Commission referees who have been
appointed to our events for many years and they have developed
that same skill. We haven't had a problem working with them.
We object to the fact that they are assigned and we have to pay
for an official that is not necessary to what we do.
REPRESENTATIVE MILLER:
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Thank you.

Representative Schuler.

REPRESENTATIVE SCHULER:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

BY REPRESENTATIVE SCHULER:
Q

Mrs. McMahon, you just started to touch on what I

wanted to get to here.

I'm trying to draw a comparison between

a professional boxer and a professional wrestler.
to talk about training.

You started

As far as professional wrestlers goes,

there is no training as such other than what he comes with on
his'. own or she?
A

Oh, no, there is training.

There is training.

Don't misunderstand.

They physically work out.

Q

Lift weights?

A

They lift weights, they run, they jog, whatever

kind of aerobic program they want to be on because our
performers are the best trained athletes in the world.

There

is no season to what they do. They do it year-round so they

 must be in peak physical condition.

There are training areas

where they can go and have preliminary wrestling matches where
they are taught basic holds. All those kinds of things, yes,
they are trained. . My comment earlier was that our matches are
not rehearsed.
Q

I didn't mean to say that they don't train.

I was

more referring to, you know, holds, how to fall properly,
whatever.
A

Certainly.

Q

How do you go about recruiting, these individuals?

What is the procedure that is used?

Do they have a manager

that you go to and make arrangements?
A

No. Quite often our talents are college athletes.

We have observed different professionals, athletes in other
sports. We have talked to them.

Maybe they weren't

first-stringers or whatever but primarily by and large we are
in a comfortable position right now that we can't use all of
the talents who are applying to the World Wrestling Federation.
Actually now we require that they send in a video tape, still
shots of themselves, a resume, wrestling experience if they
have any, photos in different poses of what they do, et cetera.
Why they want to be a professional wrestler. We council them
and talk to them about what a commitment it is as a vocation
to come in.
a tryout.

And after several of those sessions, we give them

They would go to a training facility or whatever to

 see If they have the potential to develop the skill. If they
do, we use them in different preliminary matches.

Certainly

not On our televised bouts and certainly not in the
Philadelphia Spectrum.

We use them in the preliminary matches

to develop their skill and watch their development.
Q

They apply then to your organization for a position?

A

Yes.

Q

And then you sort of somewhat put them on the stage

to see what you can do?
A

Certainly it is like giving a typing test to a

potential secretarial candidate.

If she doesn't have the

skills, you don't need to go any farther.
Q

It is like an audition?

A

To a degree.

I think more than that it is

qualification rather than an audition to qualify.
Q

While you're seeing if they have the qualifications

to do what you prefer them to do?
A

Yes.

Q

Do any of these professional wrestlers have

managers?

Are they their own managers?

A

They are their own managers.

Q

They do their own negotiating with your company?

A

Yes. Some of them are certainly represented by

counsel, but insofar as having a manager, no, we haven't dealt
with managers before.

 I night add that our talents, even on the lower
to middle part area In the World Wrestling Federation, a
relative newcomer who has proven himself and really starting to
come along can make in the vicinity of $100,000 a year.
Q

Now, you say $100,000 a year, do they sign a

contract for commission or event basis?
A

They are paid on a per event, basis.

Q

A flat fee?

A

No, it is usually on a percentage basis.

Q

Of the gate?

A

Yes.

Q

Now, you mentioned also about injuries.

Is the

wrestler responsible for injuries that occur in the ring?
A

To his own body, yes.

Q

In other words, if he breaks a leg?

A

Technically he is, by virtue of the fact he is

a private contractor, responsible for maintaining his own
medical,health and liability coverage.

In fact, we point them

in the direction of those people to talk to to help them be
sure that they are covered. While it is not written into our
contract, we certainly have an investment.in these talents.
But above and beyond that we care about these individuals.
We haven't had an instance where someone was hurt where we
didn't at least help them take care of the situation.

We have

had. instances, unfortunately, where some of our athletes have

 been in automobile accidents or those kinds of things. We have
actually had wrestling benefits and donated part of the
proceeds of the show to his family or whatever.

So, we have

a very caring arrangement for our talents who are with us.
Even though we certainly treat them as independent contractors
and advise them to have their own medical coverage.
Q

One more area, I mentioned to the Commissioner in

earlier testimony that would he recommend special rules and
regulations be set up for professional wrestling.

Since the

present rules are not being followed or being enforced, should
professional wrestling have its own set of rules?

Now, let's

assume we go that route.

I'm not saying that we are. What

would be your suggestion?

What are some of the things you

think would be acceptable to the professional wrestling
organization such as in the state of Pennsylvania?

What type

of Regulations would you be satisfied?
A

I really have to say I don't see the need for any

of those regulations.

I really don't see the need for any.

I

think if the process continues whereby there is some regulations,
it gives room for it to grow in the future and the State
Athletic Commission certainly has within its purview to adopt
regulations that are not statute and to make changes in those
regulations.

Regulations concerning some of the things that

are outdated, not in force now "could actually have been changed.
by the Athletic Commission as it exists now.

I think if it is

 allowed to continue to regulate, there is always that open door
for implementing policies that 5~years_from_now I_could.be. savin£_thle
very same thing.
Q

These regulations don't apply.

Maybe 1 was wrong.

I thought at the very beginning

of your testimony, I probably am wrong, I thought you said you
felt we should have some regulations.
A

X think there are regulations that are necessary

in terms of public safety and they are already in effect by
the police departments and municipalities, et cetera,
i'

et cetera.
REPRESENTATIVE SCHULER:

Thank you.

Thank you,

Mr. !Chairman.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Representative Hughes.

REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

i

BY REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES:
Q

I will be the first to admit that when I was young

i

I used to go to the Philadelphia

Arena and go to the

wrestling matches —
A

Have you stopped going?

Q

I kind of had to grow up and become a politician.
(Laughter.)

A

You're in the biggest arena of all.

Q

I won't argue with that.

One question, you

mentioned something about their never being any serious
injuries during the course of the matches. Maybe this was part

 of the, this was part of the performance, but I do remember
Bruno Sanmartino breaking his neck or something like that
several years ago,
A

Is that true or is it not?

He had a prior injury.

It was aggravated in the

ring, yes.
Q

Most of my concerns directed the wrestlers

themselves and what provisions your organization makes for
them in taking care of them, personal health and safety and
welfare.

Do you make any provisions for wrestlers for when

they retire out of the performance, out of the business?
A

No.

Q

Do you ever try to look after them?

A

Not in terms of financially doing that. What we

do is help counsel them in terms of financial planners that
they should talk to.

The money that they are earning, if it

is taken care of properly and put aside in proper retirement
accounts, will . provide for their future

if they are smart

business people. We do counsel them and offer any assistance
that we can to help them do that. We will set them up with
our. own accounting firm and we will recommend people for them
to talk to.

But it is something they must do on their own.
But recognizing that is one of the reasons why we

do pay the fees for their_seryices_.aboye_and_be.vond_.I be 11 eye.'
what any of these people_could_ earn_In any other endeavor. ;
That is not necessarily fair for me to say.

There

 is some instances where I doubt that they could. We are happy
i to " pa_ y

f e e s ' for their services that will allow them to

have, a very comfortable life, and if they are prudent, to set
aside some money to take care of their own needs in the future.
Q

The average annual salary for one of your wrestlers

is about how much?
A

75, to $100,000.

Q

And their career expectancy is, how long would

that be?
A

That really depends on the performer himself. It

depends on how good he is. How he continues to develop. What
we tell a performer when he starts to work for us is the clock
is ticking on your career.

Therefore, you should be the best

that you can be. You should make these provisions for yourself
because no one can continue indefinitely.
injury.

There is a risk of

So, you should make those kind of provisions for

yourself.

I mean, we did have Bob Marello wrestle forever.

He finally said he wasn't going to wrestle anymore after 1980.
But Bruno Sanmartino was champion for 12 years. You know,
there is longevity given the proper everything,, the whole mix.
Q

Do you internally, not based on any state

requirements, do you do any internal testing of your wrestlers
with an annual physical checkup, monthly checkups?

Do.you

require tests for substance abuse, anything along that line?
A

We do require annual physical examinations and

 that is something that is relatively new as part of our
requirement the past couple of years.

Substance abuse tests

are given randomly and our talents are informed when they come
to work at World Wrestling Federation that they will be
subjected to random substance abuse testing.
Q

Do you discuss with your wrestlers, this gets into

the area of referees, you provide your own referees in some
states and in other states you have' to use theirs like in the
Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

Are the outcome of your matches

discussed beforehand with the wrestlers and with the referees?

i

A

In instances, yes.

Q

In instances?

A

Not precisely how or what, but yes.

Q

How does that impact, for example, if you are in

the state of Pennsylvania where you have to use the state's
i

•

referees?

A

The s t a t e ' s referees have always endeavored to go

along with any program that we would present.
REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES:

That is all. Thank you.

CHAIRMAN OLIVER: Hra. McMahon, I want to thank you
very much for appearing and testifying before this Committee.
MRS. MCMAHON:

Thank you very much for having me.

CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

The next person to testify is

Mr. Robbins for Mr. Michael Smith who is the Chairman. Of the
Middle Atlantic Amateur Union.. .
i
i
i

l

 MR, ROBBINS: Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank
you and your Committee.

Before we get started, also, I have

been working on this for two years.

I want to thank your staff

for the help they have given me which has been exceptional.
I appreciate that and, of course, the other people that have
been; involved.

I did want to mention that although I wasn't

part of the Boxing Commission, I did attend all those hearings
because I thought it was important.
Now, .Mike Smith, who is the Chairman of the Middle
Atlantic, well, he is the National Chairman of the Junior
Olympic AAU wrestling program today. We are not going to go
through our prepared talk that we put down because I know the
>

limitations on your time.

I want to give a general overview of

the role of amateur wrestling in Pennsylvania to show you the
magnitude of what has been going o.n for the last 20 years.
And,' of course, the role of the Pennsylvania Athletic Commission
has,.or has not played in this event.

So, beginning on that, I

have put together a package of material, Mike and I have. We
have included the credentials of both of us from the wrestling
world, the amateur wrestling world, because I think that is
very important to let you know that Mike and I have been
involved in both of the major national organizations that have
been involved in amateur wrestling.

Mike, since 1960.

I got

involved when I came back to Pennsylvania in 1973. Both of us
have been either chairman or president of the state

 organizations.

So, then you can look at the rest of it.

The one statement I wanted to make from the
prepared statement is that I agree with the Legislative Budget
and Finance Committee recommendations that amateur wrestling
should be removed from the jurisdiction of the State Athletic
Commission.

And as I heard this morning and have been informed

before, this is a recommendation that the State Athletic
Commission agrees.
I think to go on, we will then go on to some of the
papers that we have provided, to give you a rundown of the
history.

I had a staff person, when I got involved a couple

years ago, do a legislative research to s e e what the intent
was back in the '50's when the Pennsylvania Athletic Commission
was formed.

Basically found there was no mention of amateur

wrestling when the law was put together.

I think mainly at

that time there was an emphasis on boxing.

There was also an

emphasis on professional wrestling and amateur wrestling got
carried along with it for two reasons. One is because.you are
also talking about the amateur boxing.

And secondly, in the

mid '50's there was really not very much amateur wrestling
activity going on in Pennsylvania outside of the scholastic
system, the PIAA, or the collegiate system.

The growth of .

amateur wrestling in Pennsylvania started basically in the
middle of the 1960's and has expanded tremendously since that
time.

 You might say why didn't the Pennsylvania Athletic
Commission get involved?
aware.

Well, very simply, they were not

I think as I have looked back in the past, most of the

people involved have been boxing people that were interested in
the Pennsylvania Athletic Commission and they really did not
become aware of the growth of amateur wrestling.

And because

there were no major problems health-wise or otherwise with the
amateur wrestling.world, there was no public outcry or any
message coming back to the Athletic Commission or the state
legislature that something needed to be done.

The first thing

I included was a newspaper article. When you say, well, how
did I get involved or find out that the Pennsylvania Athletic
Commission controlled or had regulatory control over amateur
wrestling?

Mike and I both, and Mike has run approximately

ten to 12 what we would call cultural exchanges with the Soviet
Union, with the Polish National Team and with other countries
that would come in, we put on amateur wrestling events. Mike
had one in 1985 which had the Soviet National Team come in and
wrestle some of our best collegiate and open talent in the
country at the Farm Show Arena, and that was the first time
that we found out the Pennsylvania Athletic Commission had
control of amateur wrestling and we had been running these
kind of events, at. least the two of us, for better than ten
years.

Up till that point, that was the first time that we

ever had any intent or knowledge.

I think the major reason,

 Mike trying to promote the sport put together a package that
included a ticket of $100, two-night stay at the Penn Harris,
three or four meals, a couple dinner dances with the Russians,
et cetera, with that whole package,

and the Athletic

Commission saw that ad or one of the deputies and then we
started to find out about the five percent gross tax, et cetera.
From that point, and this article is nothing but
the Harrisburg paper picked up on that fact and some of that
summer, some of the summer tournaments that they went into and
closed down or didn't allow to occur.

That's how we got

started.
The next thing I added, I had LORL do a study to
find out how amateur wrestling, professional wrestling, boxing
is regulated in the country.

Basically they came back to me

and this was a study, again, they did in 1985.

I didn't see

the need right now to update it, but it can be done. But
basically found out that there is no state regulation of
amateur wrestling.

Like the other amateur sports, baseball,

football, track and field, soccer, whatever, there are control
gymnastics or controlled through the participants, the parents,
the.coaches, the volunteers and really come under the rules
that are established by the PIAA or the national governing
body of that sport.

The terminology was used the marketplace

by the lady that testified before,and the truth is in all of
those activities, the marketplace controls the activity.

 Because if there was harm in that occurring to the sports,
believe me, we all would hear about it.
The next thing I provided, and I think this is most
important right now for you to get a concept of the scope of
amateur wrestling in Pennsylvania outside of the school systems.
Most people are not aware, and I included a breakdown of some
of the amateur wrestling activities that are going on just this
year, this spring and will occur through the months of June and
July.

I would like to go down and review that with you.
The Pennsylvania Wrestling Federation of which I

was the president and the coach of their state team for eight
years.

This year, last year they had approximately 2600

members, dues paying members.

1987 will approximate that

plus they also have 20 chartered clubs. They have a U. S. Kids
program, five age groups of which is eight and under, nine and
ten, 11 and 12, 13 and 14, 15 and 16. They have ten
qualifying tournaments, two district tournaments and held one
state tournament in Pennsylvania.

Also, we had a U. S. Kids

Regional Tournament which was held in Bloomsburg, May 15
through 17. This includes several of the states of the
northeastern part of the United States.
had 750 to 800 participants.

That tournament alone

Under eight group was not

included in the regional tournament, the U. S. A. Wrestling,
which is the national governing body of amateur wrestling right
now, does not allow the younger age groups to progress past

 that point.
There were a total of 14 kids tournaments held in
Pennsylvania with well over 3500 competitors in those events.
The United States Wrestling Federation Junior
Tournament, which is four age groups, and there was Intermediate
class which is 13 and 14, a Cadet class which 15 and 16, a
Junior classification which is the ninth through twelfth grade.
Now, you can see there is some overlapping.

They can really

wrestle in two different events and many times they do. It
depends on what their age bracket is, and, of course, the open
classification.

In that area, the Pennsylvania Federation

had 17 qualifying tournaments, all of them using Freestyle
rules, five Greco Roman Tournaments, again, using U. S. A.
Wrestling rules and the Pennsylvania Federation Greco-Roman
State Tournament held at Lock Haven State University and also
had in Pennsylvania or will have a

Pennsylvania Federation

Freestyle State Tournament, also held at Lock Haven.
This is a total of 24 tournaments with well over
2300 competitors.
Another event that occurs with the Pennsylvania
Federation is we take the top three place winners in the
Freestyle and the winner in the Greco Roman to a camp for one
week in the summer and they go to a national tournament in
Iowa.

In other words, they compete with all the other

competitors from every state in the United States and this has

 occurred every year since 1971 when it was started to be
organized.

Since about 1974, we have taken approximately 60

to 80 of the best high school wrestlers in Pennsylvania to this
tournament.
U. S. A. Wrestling, Freestyle Juniors, that is
another category which is the ninth through twelfth grade.
Then Espoirs which is 17 through 20 years old that was held
April 24th and 25th at East Stroudsburg University.

There were

300 plus competitors in that.
Other events held in Pennsylvania that would fall
under the control of the Pennsylvania Athletic Commission
include the Wrestling Classic which is held every year at the
University of Pittsburgh.
the United States, team.

Pennsylvania All Stars team versus

Also includes a match with the WPIAL

All Stars versus New England.

Wrestling Challenge AAA versus

AA at Lock Haven University and that is sponsored by the
coaches association, high school coaches and a nonprofit
organization.
Also, we have the Keystone State Games which
include Folk style and Freestyle.

Folk style would fall under

the PIAA and NCAA Rules and Freestyle under the USA Wrestling
Rules or the International Rules.
There are many wrestling clubs/booster clubs in
Pennsylvania which indirectly support the local high schools
or colleges. Many of these clubs hold wrestling tournaments.

 There are more than 200 of these types of tournaments. I
really couldn't get a figure, but I know very well that it is
two to 300 of these open tournament occur every year excluding
the organized tournaments that are going on involving
thousands of competitors.

And this basically has been going on,

it started in the '60's and been in these numbers since the
early *70's.
In this state, we also have All Star Tournaments
such as the challenge and alumni matches, et cetera, et cetera.
There are also organizations such as the YMCA, police leagues,
et cetera, which either have wrestling teams or hold
tournaments of their own.
I have mentioned the cultural exchange meets held
in Pennsylvania.

I have personally hosted the Polish National

Junior Team and also I had the Athletes In Action come in for
an alumni match.

Mike has hosted ten down here but I really

believe it is 12 which have been held within Pennsylvania. An<3,
of course, during that time, neither one of us was aware that
amateur wrestling was controlled by the Pennsylvania Athletic
Commission.
We also have in the western part of the state an
organization called Pennsylvania Junior Wrestling which
includes most of the western part of the state from State
College west, parts of West Virginia, Ohio, New York.

They

wrestle a tournament of age groups eight and under which

 advances only to an area tournament nine and ten, 11 and 12,
13 and 14. They use PIAA Rules which is Folk style.

They had

35 Preliminary Tournaments, eight Area Tournaments and one All
Area Tournament which is a total of 44 tournaments, again,
thousands of competitors and matches.
The Middle Atlantic Amateur Athletic Union, which
Mike Smith is the chairman of, they held 20 wrestling tournaments .
in Pennsylvania of which they use the PIAA Rules.

I also added

an attached sheet where Mike keeps track of the number of
competitors in all these tournaments. As you go through, the
tournaments range anywhere from 200 matches or 200 competitors
to 400 and some competitors for a total of 6944 competitors in
those 20 tournaments.
He also holds five Freestyle qualifiers, one
Middle Atlantic Championship which is held at Souderton High
School and their league uses the AAU Freestyle Rules. He had
more 2000 competitors participate

in these six tournaments.

I included then a sheet that shows the Keystone State Games,
the weight classes, the age groups that they utilize in their
four tournaments, and, of course, the state tournament
they have.
Then I think the thing that we are all concerned
about and that is, of course, the health and welfare of the
competitors.

First, in dealing with most of our activities,

the first and most concerned about it is the participant and

 the parents.

In the amateur wrestling, we have a tremendous

number of volunteers every year that get involved, and, of
course, we are really concerned because very simply everything
we own is on the line as you well know.
I included a sheet here which is a rundown of the
USA Wrestling Insurance.

The United States Wrestling is the

national governing body at this time through the Olympic
Committee and we have our insurance through that group. As
most of them are, it is an excess of coverage policy.

$100

deductible, $100,000 maximum for medical or surgical expenses.
Dental coverage:

$500 after $100 deductible. Liability is

one million per occurrence.

And generally, medical coverage

is for sanctioned competition, travel to and from, wrestling
practice sessions dealing with a sanctioned team club or event
or '.officials.
Liability coverage provides first dollar defense
for legal action initiated due to alleged negligence resulting
in bodily injury, personal injury or property damage.
Also, Mike included one there liability program,
that is the AAU which is another national organization.

Of

course, up until a few years ago the AAU was the national
governing body of wrestling.
I then just quickly put a cultural exchange
statement in there, and the reason I put that in there, as you
look down the middle, the national policy, the first thing we

 are concerned with and we deal with Is first safety and
well-being of participants. We then, of course, promote equal
opportunity to participate educational and cultural experience
and financial and administrative accountability.
Then I put a paper in there just to show you
illegal holds. All of our organizations have illegal holds
for our younger aged kids and we have eliminated some of those
wrestling holds, which again, allow the older wrestlers to use
or which are considered a little but more dangerous, and
really should not be used at a younger age. I :threw.uhat in as an
example

for your consideration to show you how we address

that and the fact that we are aware it.
The next thing I put in a list of four names of
people who are directly involved with amateur wrestling, with
the USA wrestling, the Keystone State Games and Pennsylvania
Junior wrestling in Pennsylvania, and, of course, Mike, I
didn't put his name and address there, but he is with the AAU
national organization.

Any information that he can get you

that you might want, we can do that and we would be more than
willing to.
The last thing I included, that was an article
which was in my local paper on June the 8th.

It says local

Freestyle wrestlers tuning up.
Wrestling second season is about to begin its
stretch drive for a number of Crawford County athletes who are

i

 members of the French Creek Freestyle Club.
I did that for a couple of reasons. One, again,
one of the things I wanted to show you is the magnitude of what
has been going on for the last 20 some years.
out there in the community.

It is accepted

If you glance through that, you

will see all the activites that these people have been
participating in.

Not only just in Pennsylvania, but

throughout the entire country and will do so for the rest of
the summer.
I think with that, Mr. Chairman —
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

I want to thank both you

gentlemen for appearing before this Committee.

Thank you very

much.
REPRESENTATIVE BATTISTO: .Can I make a comment?
I don't want to ask any questions.
very succinct.

No questions.

I just want to comment.

I will be

I have heard

something about Bob Robbins today that I did not know he was
involved in.

He mentioned some places very familiar to me.

I have been at those places with my son for about 12 years.

I must say ( a ) , I don't see any reason why we should be
regulating amateur wrestling.
job themselves.

It seems they do a hell of a

Because I have been at Lock Haven and

Cheltenham and all over the place. My son is involved in many
they
of these tournaments you are talking about and/do a fantastic
job mainly with volunteers and I commend you for your work.

 MR. ROBBINS:

Thank you very much.

I would also like to offer my services.

Mr. Chairman,

I have been studying

the Athletic Commission for two years and if your staff or
anybody, in any way I can help, I am certainly available to
assist.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

We certainly appreciate it.

Representative Miller.
REPRESENTATIVE MILLER:

Yes, thank you.

I asked

the Chairman to indulge me for one quick question since we have
the official House Court Reporter here for my colleague and
caucus members.
BY REPRESENTATIVE MILLER:
Q
some years.

Mr. Robbins, it has been a matter of debate for
I thought taking this opportunity of your

testimony to ask one question, what weight class did you
wrestle?
A

When I was in the service and I was the Army but I

was stationed at the Army at Eglin

Air Force, Florida.

I'm

getting around this. This is not a lie.
Q

We have some serious wagers on this answer.

A

I wrestled for Pensacola Wresting Team once, this

was in 1969, against Troy State University and their
heavyweight didn't show and I wrestled heavyweight.
Q

You got out of that one.
REPRESENTATIVE MILLER:

You got out of that one.

 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

The next scheduled person to give

testimony will be Mr. Russell Peltz, boxing promoter. Mr;
Peltz, I see you have prepared testimony.

Please be as brief

as possible because of the time element.
MR. PELTZ: Mr. Chairman, my name is Russell Peltz.
I have been promoting professional boxing matches in
Pennsylvania since 1969. I am probably the leading boxing
promoter in the state for the last 20 years.
read through this.

I'm not going to

It is basically a history of professional

boxing in Pennsyvania for the last 20 years.
90 percent of the shows I promoted were in
Philadelphia.

I did promote a couple more here in Harrisburg

at the Zembo Mosque in 1985.

I've been director of boxingf I

was director of boxing at the Spectrum in Philadelphia for
approximately eight years.

In those years probably mid '70's,

Philadelphia, along with Los Angeles and New York, were
undoubtedly the three top boxing centers in the country.
In the early 1980*s, with the advent t>f casino
gambling in Atlantic City, we all moved to Atlantic City
because financially there was no comparison between promoting
in Atlantic City and promoting in Philadelphia.

Just one

quick example, Philadelphia, as I said, went from being one of
the top three, went virtually out of existence in professional
boxing in the early '80's.

It is only slowly coming back now.

 When you promote a professional boxing match, you
rent the hall, you hire the ushers, pay for the security, the
box office, the tickets, the advertising and whatnot.

You

hope enough people will come. You will get enough money from
television, if there is television, to cover your costs.
With the sdvjexttof casino gambling and television, when the
announcer gets on and says live from Resorts International,
that attracted the casinos and what attracted the promoters
was £he casino heads would say to us we'll pay you $50,000
to put your fight in Atlantic City in our hotel. You pay no
rent, no advertising, no security, no ushers, nothing. We'll
give you 30 free hotel rooms and feed all your people. You
keep.all the revenue, we'll pay the taxes.

That in a nutshell

is what happened to boxing in Philadelphia in the early '80's.
And along came 1985. By that time a lot of the
cable systems that were televising fights got swallowed up by
bigger ones, a lot went out of business.

The medical

requirements in New Jersey became such that only a few really
elite promoters could handle it.

Boxing went from a high of

153 boxing cards in Atlantic City in 1985 to 80 in 1986 and on
the current e:v e%ria,^ge of probably no more than 60 boxing
cards in Atlantic City in 1987.
The end of my prepared statement basically talks
about a rule book or lack of rule book in Pennsylvania.

I was

at the meeting in August 1978 when there was a revision of the

 boxing and wrestling rules In Pennsylvania.

That rule book Is

the one we are still operating under today and a call yesterday
to the Philadelphia office told me that there is still no
current up-to-date rule book in Pennsylvania.

A lot of

excuses because of clerical breakdowns, printing, whatever it
is. We are still operating under an outdated rule book. One
of the mentions

in the report was 2043 concerning an on-site

ambulance that is required.
rule book.

That is nowhere in the current

I didn't know about that until I read it in your

report.
I was the promoter of the two fights mentioned in
the report, one in March of '78 where a fighter got killed,
died, as a result of a fight I promoted in Philadelphia and
also the one in January of this year which the fighter is still
semiconscious.
site.

It makes note that there was no ambulance on

None of us even knew that an ambulance had to be on site

in Pennsylvania.

It is in the rule book in New Jersey.

After

the January fight, we ourselves contacted an ambulance company
and now we have it on site but we never knew about it in the
rule book.
There are, as I mentioned, hear of things like the
standing eight count in Pennsylvania.
book.

That is not in the rule

It is in a separate two-page addendum that one of the

referees mailed me because I openly criticized him at a
recent show in Philadelphia for giving a fighter a standing

t

 eight count,

I went to the Commissioner.

I said show it to me

in the rule book where you can give a fighter a standing eight
count in the rule book in Pennsylvania and they couldn't do it.
It is only at a special seminar held in 1983 in which they
passed some of these new rules.

But none of them were ever

passed down to people in the business.

I would think that as

the leading promoter in Pennsylvania, I at least should be aware
of these things. There is no butt rul$ .in Pennsylvania.

Two

fighters accidentally clash. heads in the second round of a
fight, one fighter bleeding profusely and the fight is stopped.
According to Pennsylvania, regardless of who caused the butt,
it was unintentional, the fighter who is not bleeding is the
winner.

In almost every other regulated state in the country,

if the fight goes past three or four rounds, the fighter who is
ahead on points wins it.

If there is less than three rounds,

then it is a technical draw.
I listened to the testimony earlier of the pay
scale, 68,000 in New York, 60,000 in New Jersey, 7500 in
Pennsylvania.

It is obvious that the New York and New Jersey

jobs are full-time jobs staffed by full-time members of the
Commission.

It is full-time people., It is obvious when you

are paying the Commissioners $7500 in Pennsylvania, it is at
best a part-time job.
the Philadelphia area.

Mr. Binns is a successful attorney in
There is no way he could survive on

$7500 a year if that were in fact his only occupation.

 I am probably as well versed In professional boxing
as anybody in the state and yet when the Sunset Committee
did this report, it appears that not only I but none of the
regulatees, the people who are directly affected by the rules
and regulations of the Pennsylvania State Athletic Commission
were interviewed or at least, according to the report, none of
the boxers, none of the kids who make $150 for four rounds,
$500,for six rounds.

I don't see in the report any input from

any of these people.

These are the people that are most

directly affected by the Athletic Commission.

I think before

any final decisions are made regarding the. future of the
Athletic Commission, I'm sure we all agree that there

should

be a future, that these people should at least be randomly
interviewed.
I guess as far as the prepared statement, let me
say one more thing concerning the Medical Advisory Board.

In

New York when a fighter applies for his license right there in
the office he gets an EKG, EEG or whatever else.

It costs him

zero. He pays for his license and he gets those tests. In
New Jersey, where the fighters have to get their own tests at
their own expense, it can run up to $300. For a fighter making
two or $300 tor a fight and oftentimes with a manager who is
not financially able, it is cost prohibitive.

There is only

two major promoters right now operating out of Atlantic City
and they can afford sometimes to pay for these tests. If there

 was an abundance of $100,000 in the boxing and wrestling
budget in Pennsylvania in 1986, certainly I think a goodly
portion of that should go to try to emulate the New York
system.

As far as if you are going to have EEGs and EKGs, try

and have it supported by the state.
As far as the computer, I run a two-man office. We
have had a computer since 1983 on which approximately 3000
boxers are listed.

Every boxer who has competed in New Jersey

or Pennsylvania in the last three or four years is on my
computer, his age, his social security number, his address, his
manager's address, phone number, who he fought, when he fought
and what he weighed.

The computer may have cost us 14 or

$15,000 to set up, but I think it certainly would fit within
the budget of the state to provide at least one in the central
office in Philadelphia.

I only say that because 90 percent of

the boxing activity in the state, 90 percent of the revenues
generated from boxing in the state comes from Philadelphia.
That is all I have to say. .
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Thank you, Mr. Peltz. Any

questions from any of the members?

Representative Linton.

BY REPRESENTATIVE LINTON:
Q

Thank you, Mr. PeltE. Maybe we were remiss in not

having testimony from the youngsters who participate in boxing
and some of the promoters such as yourself.

That's one of the

reasons we have hearings such as we are having today and as

 much input as you would like to have, you have an opportunity
to do so at this point.

If there are any other points that

you feel were not addressed in the report, we welcome your
comments and anything that you may be able to provide this
Committee to help us in our endeavors.
You indicated in your prepared remarks, sir, you,
too, the same as those in the wrestling profession must use
announcers as provided by the Athletic Commission, is that
correct?
A

Yes.

Q

You are prohibited from providing your own

announcers?
A

Yes.

The choice is up to the Athletic Commission

which announcer we

use out of the ones that are licensed.

I don't really see where that should be a policy of the
Athletic Commission.
Q

Do you think, now, I am looking at the decline in

boxing in Pennsylvania.

I saw somewhere there, what were the

latest figures, 24 matches in a year?
A

Last year, 24 in the Philadelphia area.

Q

And we have had how many in New Jersey?

A

Last year was 80 in Atlantic City.

comparing Atlantic City to Philadelphia.
Q

Just Atlantic City itself?

A

Yes.

I was just

 Q

You said 90 percent of the revenues, also about 90

percent of the bouts take place in the Philadelphia area in
Pennsylvania?
A

Yes, I would say so.

Q

What would you contribute to the decline in boxing

in Pennsylvania?
A

The advent of casino gambling in Atlantic City.

The fact it just made it financially more acceptable for a
promoter such as myself, from 1980 probably to 1984, I may have
only promoted two fights in Philadelphia and that was only
because I couldn't get the date in Atlantic City and had to
come to Philadelphia.
Q

How many bouts would you say took place when, I'm

talking about Philadelphia now and I guess we'll have to use
that as our basis here, ten years ago?

What would you say the

number of bouts?
A

Well, I don't know it was that many more ten years

ago. Probably JS or 20 fights were in Philadelphia, but in
those days the fights that we promoted at the Spectrum drew
between six and 8000 people. We are doing shows that grossed
upwards 50 to $100,000 per month.

Now

the shows that I

promote in an old dance hall in Philadelphia called the Blue
Horizon, we are lucky to generate $10,000 in gross income.
Q

Stop calling my old dance hall the old dance hall.
(Laughter.)

 It is interesting.

I am just wondering how much

work does our Athletic Commission have to do.

I'm looking at

the number of bouts we have just in the Philadelphia are. I
am looking at their own regulations that they have not been
following.

I am looking at your comments about the rule book

that has not been revised or published since '78.

A

August of '78 was the meeting.

November of '78.

I t was printed i n

I t may have been revised recently but i t

hasn't been published or distributed.
Q

Some of the testimony that we have heard today

just raises a lot of questions about what we are doing and
maybe we are doing some things we shouldn't be doing.

There

seems to be a whole lot of other areas that we are. definitely
missing the boat in terms of what is going on in athletics in
Pennsylvania.
A

I think the Commission is necessary if only to

protect the safety, of the fighters.
Q

I'm not questioning the existence of the Commission.

I would think that the members of this Committee would
probably support continuation of the existence of the
Commission.

It seems to me that there are things that we are

not doing that need to be done and there are

other things that

maybe we should look at, whether we should not have our hands
in.
A

Since Mr. Walker moved from Philadelphia to

 Harrisburg not a single boxing passport has been issued out of
the Philadelphia office.

This is really the only safeguard the

commissions have around the country.

In other words, if a

fighter comes into Philadelphia from Memphis, Tennessee, he's
supposed to bring what they call a boxing passport.

It will

have the date, who that fighter fought on that date, the
results and signed by the local commission.

This is to

prevent fighters from fighting under assumed names, fighting
within the 30 day suspension time or knockout laws. All the
fighters, all these new fighters who are coming in from out of
town; even local Philadelphia based fighters, no one has been
issued a new passport since Francis Walker left for Harrisburg.
Q

How long is that?

A

Maybe he has been gone eight months, nine months.

I am not sure myself.
REPRESENTATIVE LINTON:

Thank you.

No further

questions, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Thank you, Representative Linton,

and, Mr. Peltz, thank you so much for testifying before this
Committee today.
The next scheduled person to testify if Mr. Newton
Tattrie, retired wrestler and coach.

I also hope, sir, you

will be brief as possible because of the time element.
MR. TATTRIE: My name is not Minnie Pearl; but I
am sure glad to be here.

 CHAIRMAN OLIVER: We are glad to have you. You may
proceed.
MR. TATTRIE: After you listen to what I have in
this statement, you might be sorry you invited me here, but
after listening to a half hour of Commissioner Binns, you
should be tough enough to pray for the Chicago Bears.
First of all, as a former amateur wrestler and
boxer now involved in pro wrestling and having knowledge of them
all with amateur wrestling being my first love, I feel that
the termination of the part of the State Athletic Commission
known as the Pro Wrestling Commission would be a benefit to the
public health, safety, and welfare of the fans as well as the
performers, bookers, and directors.
This Commission is a dishonest body.

The State

Professional Wrestling Commission is a paradox or a misnomer.
They,are saying, "We are an honest body, but we deal in
dishonesty", or "We believe in absolutes but everything is
relative", or "We would like to be hones»t, if possible, but we
are dishonest when necessary."
This cannot be allowed to continue only for the
state to make money.

I heard one of the Deputy Commissioner

call the wrestlers "a bunch of whores".

If that is so, then

the Commission who makes money off the avails of this is known
as a "pimp".

Is the Pennsylvania State Government willing to

take that title?

»

 I am talking about the pro wrestling side of the
Commission.

On the boxing side, there is much gambling and I

can understand why this would have to be controlled.

In the

sport of professional wrestling there is no gambling —

that

is the bottom line.
In all my 30 years of being involved in
professional wrestling I have never seen the Commission do any
good for the safety or welfare of the wrestlers or the public.
When there is a wrestling match either the promoter or the
sponsor carry liability insurance for the protection of the
public and themselves, similar to the rodeos, stock car races
and the Ice Capades w tv,I c h I heard Mrs. McMahon make such
a brilliant statement and I was so proud to be in the same
room with her today.
The Professional Wrestling Commission is a bad joke
made up of political hacks and it has the approval of the state
Governor.

If you are going to insist upon maintaining this lie

called the "State Wrestling Commission", at least hire people
who know something about professional wrestling.
The government spent a lot of money against me in
the Commonwealth Court last year trying to protect this
Commission.

I have been fighting for many years the right of

the government to control professional wrestling, an
"entertainment sport".
States like Ohio, North Carolina, South Carolina,

 West Virginia, Georgia, Florida, Minnesota, Texas, Montanna and
the mid-western states either abolished the wrestling part of
the commission or found it unnecessary to have such a thing.
Vince McMahonis the biggest wrestling promoter in
the world and a very decent, honest man. He is not unlike his
father, a wrestling promoter before him, but he, in a much
bigger way, is forced to work with this anathema around his
neck;
Thank you for your time.

I can answer any of your

questions concerning professional wrestling.
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

Thank you very much for appearing

before the Committee today and presenting your testimony.

Are

there any questions from any of the members?
(No response.)
CHAIRMAN OLIVER:

There being no questions, that

concludes our meeting.
(Whereupon at 1:30 p.m. the hearing was adjourned.)

i

•

 I hereby certify that the proceedings and
evidence taken by me in the within matter are fully and
accurately indicated in my notes and that this is a true
and currect transcript of same.

DorothjvM. Ma lone
Registered Professional Reporter
135 S. Landis Street
Hummelstown, FA 17036
(The following letter from Larry Hazzard,
Commissioner, State of New Jersey, Department of Law and
Public Safety, State Atheletic Control Board is as
follows: )
June 2, 1987
"The Honorable Frank L. Oliver
The Pennsylvania House of Representatives
Chairman - State Government Committee
1319 N. 29th Street
Philadelphia, Penna. 19121
"Dear Chairman Oliver:
"Responding to your May 20, 1987 letter directed
to Acting Chief Administrative Officer Clive Crosbie of
New Jersey's State Athletic Control Board, your invitation
to testify at the June 11, 1987 Public Hearing in Harrisburg,
Pennsylvania must be declined.
"Your committee's Sunset Review of Pennsylvania's

 State Athletic Commission should play a significant role
in the future of that body.

With that responsibility

in mind, our agency is hopeful the copies of New Jersey's
laws, rules and documents provided previously will be
beneficial to your Review.
"It is unfortunate that your scheduled June 11,
1987 Public Hearing conflicts with New Jersey's preparations
for the Gerry Cooney/Michael Spinks contest set for June
15, 1987 in Atlantic City.

That major presentation,

plus an extremely busy June schedule, will not allow
us the opportunity to attend your Public Hearing.
"Please accept my personal best wishes and those
of our Board Members for productive testimony at your
hearing.

The Board requests that a copy of the June

11, 1987 hearing minutes be provided to this office.
"Yours very truly,

"Larry Hazzard
Commissioner"
(Prepared testimony of Hon. Joseph A. Lashinger,
Jr.; was as follows:)
"Mr. Chairman and fellow Members, thank you for
:his opportunity to testify today regarding the Sunset
Review of the State Athletic Commission.

As you may

know, it was my pleasure to serve as Republican Chairman

 of the House Special Commission on Boxing, which conducted
an investigation last year into the health and safety
of boxers in the Commonwealth.

The insight which I gained

into the State Athletic Commission during our investigation
has prompted me to come before you today.
"While some groups, such as the American Medical
Association, urge a ban on boxing, it is my opinion that
boxing can be an athletic art form, which also builds
character in our young people.

Of paramount concern

to me is the health and safety of boxers who participate
in matches in Pennsylvania, and I believe that the State
Athletic Commission is the body which should provide
the mechanisms for proper regulation of bouts, including
the imposition of rigorous health and safety standards.
"While I have been disillusioned by many aspects
of the State Athletic Commission's performance over the
past several years, I truly believe that this agency
should be continued.

However, I concur with the Sunset

Performance Audit, conducted by the Legislative Budget
and Finance Committee, which concludes that numerous
changes must be made to the State Athletic Commission.
While I will

not take up the time of this Committee

by reiterating all that was said in the sunset Performance
Audit, I would like to make recommendations in several
areas of special concern to me.

 "Initially, I think that the State Athletic
Commission must develop comprehensive health and safety
standards. This can only be done by reorganizing and
activating the medical Advisory Board, which has been
inactive since 1981. Although serious injuries and deaths
in the ring are not the norm in Pennsylvania, they most
certainly do occur.

It should be the first priority of

the State Athletic Commission to do everything humanly
possible to protect the welfare of every person that steps
into a ring.
"I personally support mandatory drug testing as
a specific component of pre-bout physical examinations, and
I firmly believe that full computerization of all professional bout results in Pennsylvania is imperative.

With computer-

ization, the commission will be able to network with the
national information bank and will be able to more efficiently
screen boxers who are at potential risk to injury. Medical
records and boxers' ring histories can quickly be accessed
and potential disaster can hopefully be averted.

In

addition, the Commission must enforce provisions of the
Athletic Code which call for:

an EEG within 24 hours

of a knockout, physical examinations within five days
of a bout for all boxers, and the presence of an ambulance
at the site of all professional and amateur boxing events.
"Also, from a safety standpoint, regulations

 J.JJ

should be considered by the Medical Advisory Board which
would require the use of thumbless, leather, 16-ounce
gloves^ for all professional bouts. According to Larry
Holmes, a member of the House Special commission on Boxing,
smaller gloves (12 oz. and 10 oz.) can cause greater
damage to a fighter, as can gloves with plastic eyelets
and seams.

In addition, medical training seminars should

be mandated for all ring personnel and commission employees,
as required by the Athletic Code.
"Safety and health guidelines are not the
only area of concern for the State Athletic Commission.
There are a number of procedural, administrative and
enforcement matters which require immediate attention.
First and foremost, I think that it is essential that
the Commission's Chairman and the Executive Secretary
of the Commission develop a working relationship.

The lack

of communication, and confusion about definition of responsibilities between these two people is causing irreparable harm
to the very people placed in their charge.

There must be a

clear-cut job description for each position within the
Commission, including:

Commissioners, Deputy Commissioners,

Executive Secretary and clerical staff.
"The procedure for assigning ring officials and
Deputy Commissioners must be put in writing and there must
be a rotation of assignments among qualified officials and

 and deputies. We have a number of qualified officials here
in Pennsylvania, and we should be using them, rather than
bringing in officials from New York and New Jersey,

In

addition, there should be pre-employment tests for deputy
commissioners, to insure that they possess the skills and
knowledge necessary to perform their jobs,

and licensing

requirements for all positions (promoters, trainers, seconds,
managers, referees, judges, announcers, matchmakers,
physicians, timekeepers, booking agents, professional
wrestlers, and professional boxers) licensed by the
Commission should be reviewed and strengthened where
necessary.
"Fiscally, the Commission appears to be very
sound, considering that revenues have exceeded expenses
for the past several years.

However, collection of fees

and payment of ringside officials often do not adhere to
state guidelines, and it is my recommendation that the
Athletic Commission be required to develop specific
regulations, within 60 days, regarding these matters. There
is no excuse for not transferring state fees to the proper
account immediately, and there must be proper accounting
controls for the disbursement of funds to Commission
officials.
"Having the Commission oversee amateur wrestling
is, in my opinion, unnecessary.

The commission does not

 have jurisdiction over amateur wrestling conducted by schools
and colleges, and I see no reason for even nominal jurisdiction over other amateur wrestling programs, which are
usually promoted by parents groups and "booster clubs."
The rules' of the PIAA/NCAA are already used by these organizations and to effectively regulate all of these local
groups is beyond the scope of the Commission.

As Dick Dario,

of the Legislative Budget and Finance Committee said, "it's
like trying to place state regulation on little league
i

football."
"As far as professional wrestling is concerned,
I think that the Commission should update its regulations to
reflect the actual nature of professional wrestling.

We all

know that professional wrestling is a "show" and that
professional wrestling "contests" are virtually non-existent.
Therefore, we should eliminate the pretense of having
virtually the same rules for professional wrestling that
we employ for professional boxing, and concentrate on
enforcing rules which protect the consumer and the safety of
all those attending matches, including the wrestlers. I
believe that continued licensing of promoters, wrestlers,
and referees is necessary and promoters should be held
accountable for the filing and payment of wrestler license
fees and the 5% additional license fee on gross receipts.
"In order to insure greater accountability on

 the part of the Commission, it is my recommendation that
at least one public member be appointed to serve on the
Commisison, in addition to one or more Members of the House
and Senate, as appointed by the Speaker of the House and
the President Pro-tern of the Senate.

A public member on

the Commission would be in line with the guidelines of the
Sunset Review Act which call for public participation in
the agency's rule-making and decision-making processes.
Having a Member (s) of the General Assembly serve on the
Commission would, I believe, provide for even greater
accountability to the public.
"Finally, I wholeheartedly, support a name change
for the State Athletic Commission.

Since the Commission

regulates only boxing and wrestling (and not all "athletic"
events), it seems reasonable to follow the lead of other
states, such as New York and New Jersey, in renaming our
agency.

I would recommend "Pennsylvania Commission on

Boxing and Wrestling" for your consideration.
"I have only touched on several issues that I
think are of particular significance to this Sunset Review,
however, I urge you to examine closely all facets of the
Commission before issuing your recommendations to the
General Assembly.

The Commission is most definitely in need

of reform and reorganization and it is my hope that meaningful changes can be brought about by the recommendations of

 this Committee.

The future of boxing and wrestling in

Pennsylvania can be favorably influenced by the actions of
this committee and I am looking forward to your recommendations.

I appreciate your time and I thank you for your

consideration.

If you have any questions, please feel

free to contact me."