- . Senator John McCain October l0. 2002 Washington, D.C. Page] 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA SENATOR MITCH MCCONNELL, et 5 'Plaintiffs, Case No. 6 v. 02-0582 7 FEDERAL ELECTION COMMISSION, et (CKK, KLH, RJL) 8 al 9 DefendantsREPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE, 12 et al., 13 Plaintiffs, Civil No. 14 v. 02-874 15 FEDERAL ELECTION COMMISSION, et (CKK, KLH, RJL) 16 al., 17 Defendants. l8 - - 19 Washington, D.C. 20 Thursday, October 10, 2002 21 Deposition of SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN, a 22 witness herein, called for examination by counsel for 23 Plaintiffs in the above-entitled matter, pursuant to 24 notice, the witness being duly sworn by SUSAN L. 25 CIMINELLI, a Notary Public in and for the District of Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1 l4th Street, NW. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 .n Senator John McCain October 10, 2002 Washington, DC. Page 2 Page 4 I Columbia. taken at the offices ofSenate I APPEARANCES (Continued): 2 Of?ce Building, Room 241, Washington, D.C.. at 2 3 3120 pm, Thursday, 1, 2002, and the 3 On behalf of Senator McCain: 4 proceedings being taken down by Stenotype by SUSAN L. 4 ROGER M. WITTEN, 5 CIMINELLI. CRR. RPR, and transcribed under her 5 RANDOLPH D. MOSS, ESQ. 6 dircclion- 6 ANJA MANUEL, ESQ. 7 7 Wilmer, Cutler Pickering 3 8 2445 Street, NW. 9 9 Washington, DC. 20037-1420 10 10 (202) 663?6640 11 1 '2 12 ROBERT W. CHAMBERLIN, ESQ. 13 13 Republican Chief Counsel 14 14 JEANNE BUMPUS, ESQ. 15 15 Republican Chief of Staff '6 16 United States Senate 17 17 Committee on Commerce, Science 18 18 Transportation '9 19 560 Dirksen Senate Of?ce'BuiIding 20 20 Washington, DC. 20510 21 21 (202) 224-4852 Page 3 Page 5 I APPEARANCES: I APPEARANCES (Continued): 2 2 3 On behalf ofthe McConnell Plaintiffs: 3 On behalfofthe United States: 4 FLOYD ABRAMS, ESQ. 4 MARC L. KESSELMAN. ESQ. 5 BRIAN T. MARKLEY, ESQ. 5 US. Department ofJustiee 6 CahilI Gordon ReindeI 6 Federal Programs Branch 7 80 Pine Street 7 PO. Box 883 8 New York, NY 10005 8 901 Street. NW. 9 9 Washington. DC. 20044 10 10 (202) 307-3937 I I On behalfofthe Plaintiffs RNC, et al. I I 12 BOBBY BURCHFIELD, ESQ. 12 ALSO PRESENT: l3 GARY M. RUBMAN, ESQ. l3 TREVOR POTTER, Campaign Media Legal 14 Covington Burling 14 Center, Inc. 15 1201 Avenue, NW. 15 ED WARREN, ESQ. 16 Washington, DC 20004-2401 16 I 7 (202)662-5407 17 18 18 I9 On behalfofthe Plaintiffs Chamber of Commerce 19 20 and Senator Mitch McConnell: 20 21 JAN WITOLD BARAN, ESQ. 21 22 Wiley, Rein Fielding, LLP 22 23 1776 Street, NW. 23 24 Washington. DC. 20006 24 25 (202)719-7330 25 2 (Pages 2 to 5) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. I 1 I 1 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 I Senator John McCain October 10. 2002 Washington, DC. Page 6 Page 8 I 1 paragraph two, and in particular the last line of 2 WITNESS CROSS EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR 2 paragraph two, which states that "in addition to 3 SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN MCCONNELL PLAINTIFFS 3 making such contributions to political parties, 4 By Mr. Abrams 7 4 corporations and unions are spending their money on 5 RNC PLAINTIFFS 5 sham issue ads that pretend to address issues, but in 6 By Mr. Burch?eld 35 6 fact have the purpose and effect of in?uencing 7 7 Federal elections." 8 8 When you wrote ads that pretend to address 9 I I 9 issues, Senator McCain. do you include ads that in 10 EXHIBIT N0. PAGE N0 10 fact address issues, but also have the purpose and 11 A New York Times article. 10/10/02 I I effect of in?uencing Federal elections? 12 List ofroll call votes on cloture 8 I2 A. I think that any ad that shows the face or 13 Report or Receipts and Disbursements 36 I3 likeness of a candidate is then part of a Federal 14 Itemized Disbursements 38 I4 election. yes. 15 Report of Receipts and Disbursements 39 15 Q. Do you think that some ads in the list 60 16 Report of Receipts and Disbursements 41 I6 days ofa Federal election for the United States 17 Itemized Disbursements 42 17 Senate that do show a name or likeness also address 18 Report of Receipts and Disbursements 45 18 issues? 19 I Itemized Disbursements 47 19 A. They may or they may not. depending on the 20 1 Letter. 6/11/99 48 20 ad itself. 21 Congressional Record citation 57 21 Q. Let me show you an article from today's 22 Web page printout 69 22 New York Times, which mark as McCain Exhibit A 23 Washington Times reprint 73 23 and ask you ?rst if you have seen this document? 24 24 A. have not seen this. 25 25 (McCain Exhibit A wu Page 7 Page 9 marked for identi?cation.) 2 Whereupon. 2 BY MR. ABRAMS: 3 SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN, 3 Q. I'm going to direct your attention in 4 business address at 241 Russell Senate Of?ce 4 particular to the last two columns, but I do want you 5 Building, Washington, D.C., was called as a witness 5 to have a chance to have an idea what the whole 6 by counsel for Plaintiffs. and having been duly swom 6 article is about, sojust take your time. but let me '7 by the Notary Public. was examined and testilied as 7 know when you ?nish the [at two columns. 8 follows: 8 A. Okay. Thank you. 9 CROSS EXAMINATION BY 9 Q. Sure. This article is in good pan about 10 COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF IO the ongoing Missouri campaign for the Senate. is it 11 BY MR. ABRAMS: - 11 not? 12 Q. Good afternoon, Senator McCain. We have 12 A. Yes. 13 met before. I'm Floyd Abrams. I represent Senator 13 Q. And the article quotes in the last two 14 McConnell. This cross-examination this aftemoon 14 columns of Exhibit A from two particular 15 will be quite a bit shorter than our last exchange of 15 advertisements that I'd like to get your views on. 16 a few weeks ago. I wanted to direct your attention 16 The ?rst one, according to the article, was paid for 17 to the declaration that you signed dated October 4. 17 by the state's Democratic Party and according to the 18 and ask you some questions about it. 18 article, it begins with a picture of men on the stock 19 A. Yes. 19 exchange ?oor and a voice then says "an unstable 20 Q. Could you direct your attention, please, 20 economy, falling ?nancial markets. all that and Jim 21 first to, let me ask you ?rst, this document is one 21 Talent would invest Social Security money in the 22 that was prepared by you or on your behalf and was 22 stock market? It's true." 23 signed by you. correct? 23 And then the article says that confronting 24 A. Yes. 24 the charge, the state's Republican Party put out a 25 Q. Could you direct your attention to 25 commercial in which the Republican candidate. 3 (Pages 6 to 9) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. I I 1 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 ,u Senator John McCain October I0, 2002 Washington, DC Page II) Page l2 1 Mr. Talent, looking squarely into the camera said 1 signi?cance? 2 ?there they go again. another lie. the liberal groups 2 A. They address a public issue and they are 3 of Washington can say what they want. I am not going 3 intended to affect the outcome ofa campaign. othenvise 4 to vote to privatize Social Security. Tell Jean 4 they would not mention the candidate's names. 5 Carnahan to start scaring seniors." 5 Q. And is it fair to say that they do both of 6 I want you to assume that the article is 6 those things at once, that is to say. that they 7 accurate in saying that these two ads have appeared 7 address a public issue and they do so in your view 8 on television in Missouri. Let me ask you first. 8 for a political purpose? 9 have you seen any ofthem yourself. by any chance? 9 A. No one in their right mind would believe 10 A. No. I have not seen them. ID that these ads would be running unless they were I I Q. Assuming that they have appeared. I primarily intended to address the outcome ofa [2 A. Sure. I assume that. [2 campaign. I don't think any ofthese organizations l3 Q. I want to ask you whether in your view, 13 would fund a, an advertisement or a commercial that 14 the issue of the privatization of Social Security or [4 says save Social Security. Period. None of them 15 put differently, permitting workers to invest part of IS would. l6 their allocated Social Security funds in the stock l6 Q. And that in your view explains the reason 17 market is one genuine issue in the 2002 senatorial 17 why they put the ad on? I8 campaign? I8 A. The reason they put the ad on was to 19 A. Well, I would imagine that people would 19 in?uence the outcome ofa campaign. I think it's 20 view Social Security a an issue in any political 20 obvious. 2] campaign, and I believe that anybody who wants to run 2] Q. And now I'm asking you a related question. 22 an ad identifying a candidate as both of those 22 Does the text of the ads 3 you read them reflect 23 candidates are identi?ed in these ads should be able 23 commentary on the public issue of Social Security 24 to run those ads whenever they want to. only they 24 privatization? 25 should pay for those ads the same way that a 25 MR. I think we are close to asked Page Page I3 1 candidate does. and that's with hard money. I and answered here. and we only have a short period of 2 Q. The result ofthat, would it not. Senator 2 time. 3 McCain, ifthey could not run the ad whenever they 3 MR. ABRAMS: I'll use the time as I 4 wanted to? 4 choose, really. 5 A. As long as they got the money. I can't 5 THE WITNESS: I guess my answer has to be 6 run ads whenever I want to because I'm restrained on 6 the same that certainly Social Security is a, is an 7 the amount of money I can raise also. 7 issue that needs to be addressed all over America. 8 Q. So neither you nor they can run the ad as 8 including the halls of Congress. When used in this 9 they want 9 context, it is clearly intended to affect the outcome to A. Certainly not. Life isn't fair. IO of an election in my view. I 1 Q. My question to you now is this. Do you I BY MR. ABRAMS: l2 view these two ads, taking them together now, as ads l2 Q. Could you direct your attention now to l3 which deal with an ongoing issue of public significance? l3 paragraph four ofyour declaration. And I refer you 14 A. view them as ads that are intended to [4 in particular to the sentence on top of page 3 which [5 directly affect the outcome of an election. and IS says have heard opponents of reform argue that l6 therefore in my view should be paid for by the same [6 this ?ood of soft money does not corrupt or even way that the candidates pay for their ads. Not 17 appear to corrupt politicians or the political l8 restricted in running them, but by funding them the l8 process." 19 same way. [9 I wanted to ask you now in part as I did 20 Q. That really wasn't my question. though, 20 last time about your use of the word "corrupt." ln 2] Senator. 21 this sentence. On Meet the Press on September 20. 22 A. But that's the only answer I can give you 22 you referred to the Federal Election Commission as an 23 because they are part ofa campaign. 23 unelected, corrupt Commission. correct? 24 Q. Can you give me an answer as to whether 24 A. Yes. 25 these ads to address a public issue of genuine 25 Q. And is it correct as well thatjust a few 4 (Pages [0 to 13) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. I I 1 I 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain October l0. 2002 Washington, DC. 7? Page I4 Page If) I days ago, you referred speci?cally to four members I paragraph that the legislation as adopted was 2 of the Federal Election Commission as corrupt? 2 designed to appease the competing donors, rather than 3 A. Yes. 3 to serve the public interest, correct? 4 Q. l'm son'y. And did you say then that 4 A. Yes. That's my view. 5 "anyone who knowingly and willfully violates their 5 Q. And can you identify for us today any 6 Constitutional duty is corrupt." 6 members of the Senate Commerce Committee who in your 7 A. That's one of the de?nitions. That's one 7 view proposed or supported provisions of the 8 of many. 8 telecommunications bill because of so? money 9 Q. And is that the de?nition that you had in 9 donations made to them? 10 mind when you said what you did about the Federal IO A. I was not a member ofthe conference so I I Election Commission? I I don't know who they are. I can provide for the [2 A. That applied to them, violating the 12 reCord published media reports of lobbyists writing I3 Constitutional responsibilities, yes. 13 speci?c pieces of legislation which you are saying that the Federal l4 the legislation being put together in some cases l5 Election Commission knew that it was violating their 15 contradicted each other, and I will provide for the l6 Constitutional duty? 16 record media reports of that which were never A. Yes. By not, in writing regulations that challenged by anyOne, and I will also provide again l8 enforce the law which is their Constitutional l8 for the record Senator McConnell's statements 19 responsibility as Federal Election Commissioners. 19 concerning don't worry about voting against the 20 Q. And you are saying as well, Senator 20 tobacco bill because the tobacco companies will 2! McCain, that the four particular members of the 21 contribute money to you which is also in the media. 22 Commission to whom you were referring -- 22 That to me is the most egregious incident 23 A. Yes. 23 that have seen about the appearance of corruption 24 Q. Knowingly violated their Constitutional 24 since I have been a member of the United States 25 duty, correct? 25 Senate. telling senators that they can vote in a way Page l5 Page 17 A. Absolutely in my view. It's my opinion, I that would help the tobacco companies and the tobacco 2 and I'm entitled to it. 2 companies in return would pay for their campaigns. 3 MR. WITTEN: Pretty far beyond the scope. 3 which is what was said in a luncheon at a Republican 4 here. 4 conference when was present. 5 BY MR. ABRAMS: 5 That is the appearance ofcorruption in my 6 Q. And would it also be your view that any 6 view. I personally witnesses it, and ifl had 7 judge who sustains a ?nding ofthose four members of 7 witnessed it again, I would have -- what I should 8 the Commission would also for the same reasons be 8 have done is stand up and say this is an outrage for 9 corrupt? 9 you to say this kind ofthingI'd have to -- l0 atonished that any member ofthe Senate would sa} 1 1 MR. WITTEN: Beyond the scape. I I such a thing, I was temporarily at a loss for words. l2 THE WITNESS: I'd have to ?nd out what I2 Q. Do you believe that youjust answered my 13 the judge said before I could make that kind of 13 question. Senator McCain? l4 judgment. I know what the Federal Election I4 MR. Don't answer that questiOn. 15 Commissioners are doing now. I don't know what :1 I5 Senator. 16 Federal Judge would do. I6 MR. ABRAMS: I move to strike the entirct} I7 BY MR. ABIRAMS: I7 of Senator McCain's answer. I move to strike the 18 Q. Refer now to paragraph nine of your i8 entire commentary, beginning with the words i will 19 declaration. You refer there to legislation in the I9 also provide for the record. 20 telecommunications industry which you state 20 BY MR. ABRAMS: 2 purportedly deregulated that industry in order to 21 Q. Continuing for the moment on this 22 encourage competition and lower costs to consumers, 22 paragraph nine. Putting aside members of the Senate 23 correct? 23 Commerce Committee, do you have any personal 24 A. Correct. 24 knowledge that anyone on the conference committee 25 Q. And you say a little lower down in that 25 that dealt with the telecommunications issue proposed 5 (Pages 14 to 17) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. I I l4th Street, NW. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 I Senator John McCain October 10. 2002 Washington, DC. Page 18 Page 20 or supported provisions ofthe telecommunications reform. because I'm worried about the appearance of 2 bill because of soft money contributions? 2 corruption, as well as corruption. In my viewthe conference. as 1 say. I 3 not need to tell you the name ofan individual 4 saw the results. I saw the reported media. and I 4 because of course. I wasn't there and so there is no 5 have -- reports, and I have seen the results of the 5 way. The answer to your question is obviously I 6 Telecommunications Act which is a critical factor 6 wasn't there and when you are not there. you can't 7 here. The Telecommunications Act was going to lower 7 name anybody. 8 costs to consumers. In reality, all costs to 8 BY MR. ABRAMS: 9 consumers have gone up. In fact. the pro?ts to the 9 Q. You don't know the answer? IO cable companies have gone up dramatically 48 percent IO A. I do know the result. which is the 1 have been the cost of cable rates because of the I appearance of corruption. 12 influence ofthe cable companies, as opposed to the 12 Q. And do you also know and can you tell us 13 in?uence ofthe consumer. 13 now under oath I do not know the answer to your 14 Again, I would refer you to Consumer 14 question, Mr. Abrams? 15 Federation of America and other consumer 15 A. I know the answer to your question because 16 organizations that chronicled this really sorry 16 1 say that this appearance of corruption because of 17 chapter in the history of the United States Congress. 17 the action of -- l8 and I will also be glad to provide a Business Week 18 Q. I didn't ask you that? 19 article in the last few weeks chronicling the 19 A. -- ofa committee. 20 absolute failure of the Telecommunications Act of 20 MR. WITTEN: Let's not spend our time 21 1996 and the in?uence of Special interests in the 21 arguing. 22 formulation ofthat legislation. 22 MR. ABRAMS: I am not stepping. I'm 23 Q. I move to strike the entirety of Senator 23 entitled to a response from Senator McCain. 24 McCain's answer as unresponsive and irrelevant. My 24 THE WITNESS: And I'm entitled to respond 25 question, Senator McCain. is this. Can you, as you 25 the best way I know how. which I'm doing. Page '9 Page 21 I sit here today, out ofyour personal knowledge. name I BY MR. ABRAMS: 2 for us any member ofthe conference committee that 2 Q. My question you referred to a few minutes ago with respect to 3 answer the question of whether there is an individual 4 telecommunications legislation who proposed or 4 or individuals known to you on the conference 5 supported provisions of that bill because of salt 5 committee who because of soft money contributions 6 money contributions? 6 took certain positions with respect to the 7 A. I can only respond to say that I can 7 telecommunications hill? 8 provide for the record clear evidence of the 8 MR. WITTEN: Objection. Asked and 9 appearance of corruption, and that's why I said in my 9 answered and please don't argue with the witness. 10 deposition corruption. or the appearance of 10 THE WITNESS: My answer is the same. I 1 corruption. 1 1 BY MR. ABRAMS: 12 Q. I move to strike the entirety ofthe 12 Q. I want to proceed now to paragraph 10. I3 answer a unresponsive. My question, Senator McCain, 13 which relates to stock options, and that paragraph 14 I think I'm entitled to an answer to it -- 14 you dealt with the Sarbanes-Oxley corporate 15 A. Sure. 15 governance bill, correct? 16 Q. is can you identify for us or not the 16 A. Yes. 17 name of any member of the conference committee who 17 Q. And you said they are, about seven or 18 because of soft money contributions proposed or 18 eight lines down "according to newspaper accounts, 19 supported certain provisions of the 19 Silicon Valley venture capitalist John Door. who has 20 telecommunications bill? 20 given $619,000 to the Democratic Party since 1999, 21 MR. WITTEN: Objection. Asked and 21 spoke by phone to the Senate Democratic leadership 22 answered responsively twice. 22 and urged them to oppose my stock options proposal." 23 THE WITNESS: But I'll be glad to answer 23 My ?rst question to you about that. 24 it again. I cannot give you a complete answer 24 Senator McCain, is this. Apart from newspaper 25 because ofmy advocacy of. for campaign ?nance 25 accounts. do you have any personal knowledge that 6 (Pages 18to 21) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. I 1 1 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 I-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain October l0. 2002 Washington, DC. Page 22 Page 24 i this telephone call occurred? I A. No. 2 A. No. have no personal knowledge. 1 2 Q. Could you refer now to paragraph -- 3 certainly trust what was reported in USA Today and 3 A. And I guess I ought to respond to that. 4 every other media outlet. 4 Not by me because my job in campaign ?nance reform 5 Q. Have you found media outlets always 5 is not to identify speci?c individuals, which is the 6 accurate in reporting about you, Senator McCain? 6 continuous theme of the questioning herewouldn't deny that that phone call took 7 to note that all of us are tainted by this process. 8 place. i won?t. 8 including me which have said on thousands of 9 Q. The next line -- 9 ocmions, and I'm concerned about the appearance of ID A. There were follow-up stories. 10 corruption as much as I am corruption because in the I Q. The next line in the paragraph said "the ll mind of the voter, the two are indistinguishable. l2 Senate Democratic leadership then used 3 l2 Q. Now, in your mind? 13 parliamentary procedural device to block a vote on 13 A. In my mind and the mind ofthe voter that l4 it." l4 1 talked to, that have contact with every day. l5 And my question to you is this. Do you l5 Q. 1 want to ask you a related question. l6 have any personal knOWIedge, apart from what you read l6 focusing for the moment not on the voter but on you. 17 in the newspapers, that the reason that the Senate l7 on what you think about this particular issue. Are 18 Democratic leadership blocked the vote was soft money 18 there some circumstances known to you in which the l9 contributions? l9 voters were wrong? 20 A. That's nor what said. stated that the 20 A. I think the voters have been wrong at 2 Democratic leadership then used a parliamentary 2 times, which is their right to be, but it's my 22 procedure device to block a vote on it. Period. 22 responsibility as a public servant not to give them 23 Q. I understand. And my question is -- 23 the appearance of corruption, and this system does 24 A. have nothing to add to that. 24 give the appearance of corruption, and that can show 25 Q. That may be the answeryou l200 polls that show that the American people Page 23 Page 25 1 question first. What knowledge, ifany, do you have I believe that we are unduly in?uenced by the 2 as to whether the reason that the Senate Democratic 2 in?uence of big money. 3 leadership used a parliamentary procedural device to 3 Q. Paragraph ll, Senator McCain, deals with 4 block a vote was soft money contributions? 4 legislation recently passed by the Senate which you 5 A. Because it was or appeared to be, I 5 describe as legislation to get generic drugs to 6 emphasize it was or appeared to be adversely and 6 market faster. And you say that it is stalled in the 7 unfairly in?uenced by soft money contributions. 7 House reportedly because of pressure exercised by the 8 have no knowledge that it was, that there certainly 8 White House and the Republican House leadership. 9 was the appearance. We go back time and time again, 9 And my question will be similar to those IO Mr. Abrams, in all due respect, to the issue of 10 have asked you earlier, which focuses on your own I appearance because public officials not only have to knowledge. I understand that the word- reportedly l2 adhere to the letter of the law, but the spirit of l2 sometimes means it's been reported, it's been said or IS the law. l3 it's been written about. i simply want to understand l4 That's why we have an Ethics Committee, to 14 whether you have any personal knowledge of the IS judge people's ethics. Not violation of law, but l5 pressure by the White House referred to in this l6 their conduct in of?ce and because ofthis the way l6 sentence? that this happened. there was the appearance that the 17 A. No. It is well-known that the White House l8 legislative process'was adversely and unfairly [8 opposes this legislation. l9 in?uenced by large soft money contributions. The l9 Q. And what is the basis of your testimony 20 appearance of it. 20 other than materials that you have read in the public 21 Q. Were there any referrals to the Ethics 21 press? 22 Committee with respect to anything to do with this statement is a bill 23 legislation? 23 recently passed by the Senate to get drugs stalled in 24 A. Not that know of. 24 the House stalled because of pressure exercised by 25 Q. Not by you? 25 the House and the leadership. I can provide 7 (Pages 22 to 25) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1 1 14th Street, N.W. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain October ID, 2002 Washington, DC. Page 26 Page 28 1 documents indicating the White House's opposition to 1 political campaigns. [t was Theodore Roosevelt. who 2 the bill. 2 said these people were corrupt. 3 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge that 3 BY MR. ABRAMS: 4 the White H0use position on the bill came about 4 Q. Are you ?nished with that answer? 5 because of' soil money contributions? 5 A. Yes. sirallege that. 6 Q. Do you personally have a view with respect 7 Q. I understand that you don't allege it. 7 to the very subject that you averted to a few 8 I'm asking you now. And you have answered it? 8 sentences ago, which is in terms ofline drawing. 9 A. But I'm sure that the White House 9 You had said maybe l.000 wouldn't have the same IO oppositions and Republican House leadership in the 10 impact. I asked you about 5 or I 0.000. I I face ofa recent poll that showed that 72 percent of A. I don't have a handle on that. Mr. Abrams. 12 the American peeple want legislation that would case 12 I know that it's so far out of control and out of the 13 generic drugs into the marketplace, that 1 am sure 13 realm of any objective view that it could bejust 14 that there is the appearance of corruption here 14 contributions to good government. 1 did support the [5 because of the big money that was contributed at a 15 $2,000 contribution limit in the law. because I felt l6 record-breaking fundraiser. 16 that that was probably the right thing to do given 17 Q. With respect to the Republican House 17 that $l .000 in '74 is about $2,000 today. Hard l8 leadership now, I want to ask you the same question. 18 money. 19 Apart from any knowledge that you picked up in the 19 Q. And you did oppose the Hagle proposal, did 20 press and the like, do you have any personal 20 you not? 21 knowledge of pressure exerted by the Republican House 21 A. Which proposal was that? 22 leadership to defeat the generic drug proposal? 22 Q. Which essentially would have capped so? 23 A. Of course, it's public knowledge that the 23 money contributions at the same level as hard money 24 White House leadership has -- 24 contributions? 25 Q. The House leadership? 25 A. Yes. I believe so. To tell you the Page 27 Page 29 A. Excuse me. The House leadership has I truth. I don't remember too well. I know I opposed 2 blocked consideration of the bill to the point where 2 Hagle's proposal, but I'm not -- I don't remember a 3 they blocked a discharge petition. It's very 3 lot of the details of his proposal. 4 well-known. might add when you raise big money. 4 Q. Could you direct your attention now to 5 200.000, 250.000 comes from pharmaceutical companies 5 paragraph 16. You refer there to the spending of 6 and the legislation it blocked, it creates the 6 what was reported to be $35 million by the AFL-CIO on 7 appearance of corruption. 7 an issue ad campaign. Correct? 8 Q. By the way, would the appearance of 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 corruption be signi?cantly lessened ifthe amounts 9 Q. And you refer in the last line on page 8 IO were significantly lower? 10 to the national Republican Congressional Committee 1 A. Of course. lfthey were $1,000 1 I ?ling a complaint with the Federal Election 12 contributions, I'm sure that people would not nearly 12 Commission, which argued that "the AF is using a 13 have the same suspicion that you have when $250,000 [3 huge general treasury to unfairly in?uence the 14 is contributed towards money in pending legislation. l4 outcome of elections." 15 What you are asking me is where is the dividing line, 15 Do you know what became ofthat complaint? l6 but I?m not exactly sure what that is. do know 16 A. I believe the complaint was not acted on, 17 what this is, Mr. Abrams. This is the appearance of 17 but I'm not sure. The reason why I bring this up is l8 conuption. 18 because it was probably the party who ?led the 19 MR. Senator is pointing to the 19 complaint. You will ?nd no defense ofthe actions 20 top -- 20 of the FEC from me, Mr. Abrams. They are the ones 21 THE WITNESS: 3250.000 from 21 that caused this problem. It wasn't passing laws 22 Glaxo-SmithKlein Pharm, Ely Lilly, 50.000. It's 22 that repealed the corporate contribution, outgoing or 23 disgraceful. Teddy Roosevelt is turning over in his 23 union contributions. [t was the FEC. 24 grave. It was Teddy Roosevelt that got repealed the, 24 Q. ljust want to make sure I understand what 25 that got outlawed corporate contributions to American 25 you know about this. Senator McCain. And my question 8 (Pages 26 to 29) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. I 1 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain October 10, 2002 Washington, DC. Page 30 Page 32 I is this. This whole paragraph or a good part of it 1 made with respect to it. 2 deals with a complaint and what it said. And 1 want 2 THE WITNESS: Out of curiosity, why would 3 to know if you are aware that the complaint was 3 the ACLU want to have it for counsel only something 4 dismissed by the 4 that seems to me ?ies in the face of everything that 5 A. Yes. I'm aware, and my point was that the 5 your organization represents? 6 Republican Party felt that it was illegal, rather 6 BY MR. ABRAMS: 7 than any action of the FEC. 7 Q. Senator McCain, I don't have the honor of 8 Q. Similarly, in paragraph 17, you refer to a 8 representing the ACLU speci?cally in this case, so 1 9 complaint ?led by the Kentucky Republican Party 9 can't speak - 10 which alleged that the Kentucky Democratic Party 10 A. You have been associated with the 1 I allegedly spent $300,000 in what they referred to as 1 organization all your adult life, Mr. Abrams. Why 12 "a last-minute so? money television advertising 12 would you keep something con?dential which is 13 campaign in late 13 illegal and an impropriety? 14 My question to you is the same. is it not 14 Q. Are you now saying it's an impropriety? 15 true that that complaint was dismissed Yes. Again, reminding you that it was the 16 A. I'm saying it was raised by Tobacco-Free 17 EC that opened the soft money loophole that has 17 Kids. ls it con?dential or open, then I?ll an5wer 18 caused the corruption and appearance of corruption in 18 your questions. 19 American politics today, so the fact that the FEC may 19 Q. I'm taking the position it's con?dential. 20 dismiss a complaint should mean little or nothing anyone. 21 A. I don't have an answer to your question if 22 Q. Do you think that in preparing a 22 this is con?dential. 23 declaration of this sort for a case of this magnitude 23 Q. Senator McCain, I'm afraid we don't play 24 it might have been more candid on your part to 24 by your rules today. 25 describe to the courts what the ultimate resolution 25 A. I'm sorry. 1 don't have an answer. Page 31 Page 33 1 was with respeCt to the complaints that you referred I Q. If you want to walk out, you can walk out. 2 to? 2 A. lfit's not part ofan open record -- 3 A. My point was not how it was adjudicated by 3 Q. You are a witness in a litigation, and you 4 obviously a great source of the problem that we are 4 will answer. 5 trying to address in the legislation. My point was 5 MR. WITTEN: I'm going to throw out a 6 that even Republicans on certain occasion felt that 6 penalty ?ag here. Just ask questions, Floyd. 7 activities with soft money -- that was the point of 7 BY MR. ABRAMS: 8 the deposition. 8 Q. Paragraph eight refers to a complaint made 9 i'll be glad to add an addendum to both of 9 by the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids before the 10 those saying that the FEC dismissed the complaint. 10 Federal Election Commission. And you quote from I 1 Would you do that possibly? 1 1 that, do you not? 12 MR. Just did. Consider it done. 12 A. Yes. 13 BY MR. ABRAMS: 13 Q. You quote from the complaint? 14 Q. 1 want to refer now to paragraph eight. 14 A. Yes. 15 A. Eight? 15 Q. 0f the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids. 16 Q. Eight. On page 4. And 1 will request 16 What became of that complaint, Senator McCain? 17 that this portion of the transcript be treated for 17 A. Who was that made against? 18 counsel only. This refers to the same subject. 18 Q. That was made in part against Senator 19 Senator McCain, that you referred to earlier. 19 McConnell? 20 MR. WITTEN: Before you ask the question, 20 A. That was dismissed by the FEC. 21 we object to this continuing effort to cover up 21 Q. Last time I questioned you here, 1 asked 22 allegations about misconduct by Mitch McConnell, your 22 also if you were aware that the Department of 23 client, which have been reported in the press. There 23 Justice, as well as the FEC had determined that there 24 isn?t anything about this subject that warrants the 24 was no basis for any legal complaint with respect to 25 assertion of con?dentiality that you have repeatedly 25 that. At that point you said that you didn't know 9 (Pages 30 to 33) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1 1 1 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain October 10, 2002 Washington, DC. Page 3-1 Page 36 1 that. My question to you now is do you know it now? I Q. Good aftemoon, Senator McCain. I'm Bobby 2 A. I didn't check up on it. I'll take your 2 Burch?eld. representing the Republican National 3 word for it, and I don't care because clearly what we 3 Committee, as last time. Let me ask the reporter to 4 are talking about here is the appearance of 4 mark as McCain Exhibit an excerpt from the Senate 5 impropriety and I don't know enough about laws to 5 website concerning the vote on cloture in I997 on the 6 know how illegal it is, but I know it's the wrong 6 campaign ?nance bill. 7 thing to do to tell senators not to worry about their 7 I McCain Exhibit was 8 vote because a certain organization. especially 8 marked for idenu?cation.) 9 tobacco companies, will pay for their campaigns. 9 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: 10 Q. Did they do that. Senator? 10 Q. Senator. you have suggested in paragraph 1 1 A. was told that they did, but I didn't I I seven ofyour declaration that. and 1 quote, 12 check up on it. It doesn't matter to me. The fact 12 Congressional leaders also used soft money to enforce 13 is that the Senator said it. The Senator assured 13 party discipline and loyalty to their views. At 14 them of their vote. Maybe they reneged on their 14 times when members seek to support legislation their 15 commitment. I don't know. IS Congressional leaders oppose, they are threatened 16 Q. Have you looked into the question at all 16 with the prospect that their leaders will behold soft 17 of what, if anything, the tobacco manufacturers did 17 money being spent on their behalf. Do you see that? 18 with respect to the campaigns of Republican senators 18 A. Yes. 19 in that campaign? 19 Q. In connection with that, do you 20 A. Well ?rst of all, Mr. Abrams. it would be 20 distinguish between the use of 500 money by party 21 very dif?cult for me to track tobacco money, just as 21 leaders and the use of hard money by party leaders to 22 it's dif?cult to track a whole lot ofdifferent 22 support or oppose, to support or withhold support by 23 kinds of money that ?ow through American political 23 Congressioual members who do not toe the line that 24 campaigns. So I didn't even try. What bothered me 24 their party leaders want them to toe? 25 was not whether the tobacco companies did it or not 25 A. Obviously. hard money is raised in small Page 35 Page 37 and shouldn't bother anyone, to tell you the truth, 1 amounts, according to the legal limits and soft money 2 whether someone did it or not. It was the fact that 2 is in an unlimited amounts of money, and very large 3 the statement was made to Republican senatorsjust 3 sums of money. So I may not like it if hard money 4 prior to a vote. When 1 tell my constituents about 4 were used as some kind of motivation. but I don't 5 it. they are shocked. And angry. 5 believe that it is anywhere. anywhere in the realm of 6 MR. ABRAMS: have no further questions 6 what's happened over the fast 10 years or so in the 7 at this time, subject to the time limits that we have 7 conduct of the House of Representatives as attested 8 agreed upon for today. I'll wait and see how long 8 by Mr. Greenwood, Charlie Bass has been very open. 9 Mr. Burch?eld goes. 9 and a number of members of Congress have been open on 10 MR. WITTEN: Wait a second. 10 it. so I guess I do differentiate between soft and I MR. ABRAMS: We are not going beyond the hard money. I wouldn't like it ifsomeone used hard 12 time limits that we agreed. 12 m0ney. but the ability to in?uence when you raise 13 MR. This is your chance. If [3 huge amounts of hard money as opposed to so? money 14 Bobby asks questions, you don't get to come back 14 is dramatically different. 15 unless I do some reviewing. This is your last 15 Q. If the party committees supported senators l6 chance. I6 and congressmen who vote against legislation 17 MR. ABRAMS: My position is that have 17 supported by the party or far legislation opposed by 18 the right to continue. That this is one 18 the party with coordinated expenditures and hard 19 cross-examination and that counsel can ask questions 19 money contributions, wouldn't that be inconsistent 20 for the time period as they see fit. 20 with what you are saying here? 21 MR. WITTEN: We will deal with it ifit 21 MR. Object to the form ofthe 22 arises. 22 question. 23 CROSS EXAMINATION BY 23 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: 24 COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF RNC 24 Q. Let me withdraw that question and ask it a 25 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: 25 different way. Senator. ifyou look on the second 10 (Pages 34 to 37) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. I 1 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain October 10, 2002 Washington, DC Page 38 Page 40 1 page of McCain Exhibit B, you will see the list of A. Yes. 2 senators who voted yea on the cloture petition, the 2 0. McCain Exhibit is the report of the 3 closure resolution on your campaign ?nance bill 3 Republican National Committee indicating in the upper 4 during the 1997 session. Are you with me on that 4 right-hand comer of the ?rst page a $5,000 5 page? 5 disbursement on behalf of Ms. Collins. Do you see 6 A. Yes. 6 that? 7 Q. And you see that there are, that there are 7 A. Yes. 8 seven, eight Republican senators there. The ?rst the third page ofthis 9 them is the late Senator Chafee? 9 document, an excerpt from the National Republican 10 A. Yes. 10 Senatorial Committee's report showing a contribution 1 1 Q. Are you aware that the Republican National 1 I to Senator Collins ofS 17,500? 12 Committee prior to his, the National Republican 12 A. Yes. And l'm sure that every inCumbent l3 Senatorial Committee prior to Senator Chafee's death 13 that was up for re-election received $17,500. Which 14 gave him the maximum hard money contribution on June 14 is chicken feed, in all due respect. It's probably a 15 25. 15 couple days salary in years when were you working on 16 A. 1 was not aware ofthat. 16 a campaign. 17 MR. BURCHFIELD: Let me ask the reporter 17 Q. When 1 was working on a campaign, Senator. 18 to mark a McCain Exhibit pages of report of 18 I assure you, that was more than a couple day's 19 receipts and disbursements from the National 19 salary. 20 Republican Senatorial Committee. 20 MR. He was referring to the value 21 (McCain Exhibit was 21 ofyour services. 22 marked for identi?cation.) 22 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: 23 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: 23 Q. Well, in that event, I agree with you. 24 Q. Do you see there, Senator, on line six of 24 A. 100th of the media buy that Senator 25 the second page where it shows Chafee for Senate 25 Collins had to make in order to win her election. Page 39 Page 41 I 6-25-99, $17,500 contribution by the senatorial 1 Q. McCain Exhibit concems Senator 2 committee? 2 Hutchinson. who is up for election this year. 3 A. Yes. 1 see it. 3 (McCain Exhibit was 4 Q. And that's the maximum amount that the 4 marked for identi?cation.) 5 senatorial committee is allowed to contribute to a 5 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: 6 candidate, is that correct? 6 Q. Senator, by press reports, Senator 7 A. That is correct, and surely you don't 7 Hutchinson is in a tough re-election race, is that 8 think it means anything. In any senatorial campaign, 8 correct? 9 $17,000. Come on. Multimillion dollar campaigns, 9 A. Yes. 10 that's, that has zero impact. IO Q. McCain Exhibit are the FEC reports 1 1 Q. Would coordinated expenditures on behalf 1 1 ?led, excerpts from the FEC reports ?led by the 12 of the candidate have an impact? 12 senatorial committee and the RNC concerning their 13 A. You know, 1 don't know, and I'm not sure 13 transfers for the Senate for Hutchinson campaign. 14 what the point is, but l'm sure you will get to it. 14 Would you please look at the second page under item 15 But 1 don't know what would matter. 1 know that when 15 C. Do you see there where the senatorial committee l6 huge amounts of soft money come into a campaign and 16 transferred $14,457.74 to Senator Hutchinson on 17 ensure issue ads and do all the things they are doing 17 December 17th, 2001 18 that they have an effect on campaigns. 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. BURCHFIELD: Exhibit the fourth page down 20 (McCain Exhibit was 20 transfer from the, a coordinated expenditure on 21 marked for identi?cation.) 21 behalf of Senator Hutchinson by the Senatorial 22 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: 22 Committee of$69.412. 18? 23 Q. Senator, you will note that the next 23 A. Yes. 24 Republican Senator who voted for closure in 1997 was the last page of this 25 Senator Susan Collins of Maine, do you see that? 25 document, a disbursement on behalf of Senator 11 (Pages 38 to 41) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1 1 1 1 14th Street, N.W. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain October 10, 2002 Washington, DC. Page 42 Page 44 1 Hutchinson by the Senatorial Committee on April 24. I believe you con?rmed that in your 1998 race. you 2 2001 of $3,042.26? 2 prevailed with something on the order of 68 percent 3 A. Yes. 1 also noticed something from the 3 ofthe vote, is that right? 4 Arizona Biltmore. 24th and Missouri, "purpose of 4 A. Yes. 5 disbursement. meeting expense for Arkansas, in kind 5 Q. And so you would not have been considered 6 contribution." I'd be curious what's that all about 6 a seriously challenged incumbent that year. is that 7 since it's only 24 blocks from where I live. 7 right? 8 Q. Maybe you can inquire when you return 8 A. 1 would think not. 9 home. Senator, the next Senator that voted for 9 Q. And, but as 1 see here, it looks as though 10 cloture was Senator Jeffords of Vermont. Let me ask 10 the Senatorial Committee provided to you $5,000. 1 I the reporter to mark as McCain Exhibit F. 1 $6,000 of contributions. 12 A. Will you be helping him in his next -- 12 A. Yes. It looks to me like Matt Fong and 13 Q. 1 think I will reserve comment on that. 13 Friends of Senator D'Amato and Missourians for Kit 14 Will you? 14 Bond. 15 (McCain Exhibit was l5 Q. These are listed in the order in which 16 marked 'for identi?cation.) 16 they are made so sometimes your name appears with 17 BY MR. ABRAMS: 17 others. Your name is at the top ofthe ?rst page? 18 Q. This is no time to plead the Fifth, 18 A. Now I understand. [9 Senator. Do you see on McCain Exhibit F, this is 19 Q. Top ofthe second page. Top ofthe third 20 Jeffords, do you see on the second page of McCain 20 page. 21 Exhibit a $17,500 maximum contribution from the 21 A. Now I understand. Okay. 22 Republican Senatorial Committee to Jeffords on June 22 Q. ltem under the fourth page. Item on 23 23, 23 the ?fth page. And item I on the last page? 24 A. Yes. 24 A. Yes. 4 or $5,000 approximately, rightthe next page 25 guess. Page 43 Page 45 coordinated expenditures by the Republican National 1 Q. Who was the chair ofthe Senatorial 2 Committee for Senator Jeffords. $49,608.41 on October 2 Committee at that time? 3 12th. 2000? 3 A. Damned ifl know. 4 A. Actually, I don't have that. But I see 4 Q. Wasn?t it Mitch McConnell? 5 it. 5 A. Yes. 6 MR. it seems to be separated. 6 Q. The next entry here, the next Senator who 7 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: 7 voted for closure? 8 Q. If the of?cial copy doesn't have, it we 8 A. I'm touched by his generosity. $4,000. 1 9 should correct that? 9 hope it didn't cause him to shut the doors or [0 A. I see. 10 anything and turn out the lights. 1 1 Q. You see below that it adds up all the 1 i Q. You'll have to inquire of him how much 12 aggregate general election expenditures for that 12 that hurt him. Senator, the next Senator who voted 13 candidate and that amount is $122,504? 13 for cloture, the next Republican Senator is Senator 14 A. Yes. Yes. 1 see that. 14 Snowe. Let me ask the reporter to mark as McCain 15 Q. That is not chicken feed in a state like 15 Exhibit the analogous FEC reports for Senator 16 Vermont, is it, Senator? 16 Snowe. 17 A. 1 would think not. 17 (McCain Exhibit was 18 Q. The next Senator that voted for cloture in 18 marked for identi?cation.) 19 I997 was one Senator John McCainMR. BURCHFIELD: 20 reporter to mark as McCain Exhibit the analogous 20 Q. Senator, my records show that Senator 21 records from the Federal Election Commission. 21 Snowe won 2000 with approximately 69 percent of the 22 (McCain Exhibit was 22 vote. Does thatjibe with your general recollection. 23 marked for identi?cation.) 23 ifyou have one? 24 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: 24 A. I know you would also agree that Maine is 25 Q. Senator. the last time we were here. 1 25 viewed as a very mercurial state with the largest 12 (Pages 42 to 45) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1 1 1 1 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain October 10. 2002 Washington, DC. Page 46 Page 48 1 registration being independent voters, so she won 1 political parties was not to raise money or it was 2 with that vote, but it?s a very dif?cult state to 2 part of it. I thought it was to organize volunteers. 3 predict. 1 think that would be fair to add. It's 3 set up phone banks, get out the vote, et cetera, 4 not a major point. 4 etcetera. As I mentioned in my deposition, the 5 Q. But that would probably explain why the 5 Republican voter registration in my state has 6 Republican Committees gave her almost $70,000 despite 6 actually declined over the last four years as the 7 the fact that she seemed to be walking away with the 7 amount of money raised goes up. 8 election? 8 Q. And we will talk about that. But 1 want 9 A. 1 would think it would be. 9 to ?nish this topic ?rst. The last Senator who IO Q. If you look at these records. you will see 10 voted for cloture, the lat Republican Senator who 1 on the second page the $17,500 maximum donation from I 1 voted for cloture is Senator Thompson, who is 12 the Senatorial Committee and then coordinated 12 retiring this year, right? 13 expenditures on the last two pages totaling 13 A. Yes. 14 approximately $52,000. Do you see those? 14 Q. Senator, you talk in your af?davit about IS A. Yes. 15 such things as barbecues? 16 Q. The next Senator who voted for cloture and 16 A. Yes. 17 we are almost done was Senator Specter from 17 Q. Do you remember being invited to the King 18 And my records indicate that Senator 18 County, Washington barbecue in 1999? 19 Specter prevailed in 1998 when he ran for re-election 19 A. To appear as a presidential candidate, I 20 with 61 percent of the vote. Does that again sound 20 believe that Elizabeth Dole was there as well. 2 in line with your recollection ifyou have one? 21 Q. Let me ask the reporter to mark as McCain 22 A. Yes. 22 Exhibit .1 a letter to Senator McCain from Dale 23 Q. Again, not a particularly close race? 23 Foreman, the Chairman of the Washington State 24 A. Again, not a predictable state. 24 Republican Party dated June 11, 1999. 25 Q. Let me ask the reporter to mark as McCain 25 (McCain Exhibit was P389 47 Page 49 1 Exhibit 1 the analogous FEC reports concerning 1 marked for identi?cation.) 2 Senator Specter. 2 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: 3 (McCain Exhibit 1 was 3 Q. Senator, take a moment ifyou would like 4 marked for identi?cation.) 4 to look at the letter and let me know when you are 5 THE WITNESS: How much is this for 5 ready to answer questions about the letter and the 6 Specter? 6 event? 7 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: 7 A. Yes. 1 was there. 8 Q. By my addition and you may feel free to 8 Q. You did attend this event? 9 add it yourself, 1 get $3,000? 9 A. Yes. 10 A. Out ofa campaign that probably cost them 10 Q. The third paragraph ofthis says the 7 million. 11 picnic is always the highlight ofthe summer for 12 Q. Well, send for, ifas you know, even if 12 Republicans in Washington State. This annual event 13 the party committees provide the maximum 13 is free to the public and typically draws between 14 contributions and the maximum coordinated 14 5,000 to 10,000 grassroots Republicans who enjoy 15 expenditures, that's going to be a very, very small 15 meeting their elected of?cials in a relaxed l6 fraction of the total spending by a senatorial l6 atmosphere, The picnic offers live music, family 17 campaign, wouldn't you agree with that? 1? entertainment, vendor tables, informational booths 18 A. Yes. 18 and a huge barbecue followed by political speeches 19 Q. So if they do all they can do, it's very 19 from nationally recognized Republican speakers. 20 little? 20 ls that generally in accord of your 21 A. Yes. 21 recollection of it? 22 Q. And would you also agree with me that 22 A. Except for the numbers, numbers which are 23 political parties allocate their resources on the 23 dramatically smaller. Dramatically smaller. The 24 basis of competitiveness? 24 numbers were in the hundreds rather than the 25 A. Yes. But 1 also thought thejob of 25 thousands. Maybe it was because ofthe speakers. 13 (Pages 46 to 49) Alderson Reporting Company, inc. 1 1 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain October 10, 2002 Washington, DC. Page 50 Page 52 1 Q. Or the barbecue. You may take your 1 process. Yes. 2 choice. You have attended other political barbecues 2 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: 3 in your career. haven't you? 3 Q. Such as noted here by Jessica Funkhouser. 4 A. Yes. 4 she says one factor behind the no party surge is that 5 Q. Picnics? 5 since 2000 independents have been allowed to vote in 6 A. Yes. 6 party primaries, right? 7 Q. Grassroots gatherings. correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 A. Yes. 8 Q. And that's certainly an advantage of party 9 Q. They still occur, don't they? 9 membership as opposed to registering as an 10 A. Much more rarely. 10 independent. right? 1 1 Q. Have you done, have you seen any sort of 1 A. 1 don't think people. it's not my view 12 methodical analysis, Senator, to determine whether 12 that people register as independent because they want 13 there are fewer. the same as, or more grassroots 13 to vote in a primary on either side. think they 14 gatherings of this sort now than there were when you 14 vote as independents because they don't find a home 15 first came to Congress? 15 in either party. 16 A. No. have only seen them decline in 16 Q. So you disagree with the state elections 17 Republican registration and the increase in 17 director, Jessica funk Hauser that that's the one 18 independent registration, and being invited to state 18 reason for the increase in independent voting? 19 party functions in my own state and other states 19 A. 1 disagree. 20 seemed to climb in attendance. 20 Q. It's also the Kate. isn't it, that the 21 Q. Does your campaign host barbecues? 21 motor voter legislation became effective in the mid 22 A. Sure. Yes. 22 '905 and was passed? 23 MR. The invitations are marked 23 A. Yes. When 1 think ofthese things, it's 24 highly confidential by the Republican Party. 24 notjust Arizona. California Republican registration 25 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: 25 is now 32 percent, 32 percent in the largest state in Page 51 Page 53 1 Q. Are you aware of other candidates who host 1 America That's down from in the '405 when Ronald 2 barbecues? 2 Reagan was president of the United States or Govemor 3 A. Yes. 3 ofCalifomia. It's been a steady decline. 4 Q. You are aware of other state Republican 4 Q. 1 think you would agree with me that the 5 parties that host barbecues? 5 Republican Party was under stronger leadership when 6 A. Yes. 6 President Reagan was Governor of California than it 7 Q. You have mentioned party voter 7 has been now, than it has been for the last several 8 registration a couple of times, and as an attachment 8 years? That's got to be a distant proposition for 9 to your declaration, 1 think you have attached an 9 you to disagree with. Senator? 10 article from the Arizona Republic? 10 A. Well. 1 don't disagree with it, but does 1 A. Yes. 1 1 that mean that we would attribute a drop to 32 12 Q. And if you can find that. 1 don't recall 12 percent of the registered voters are Republicans 13 which exhibit it is. 13 because Ronald Reagan is no longer Governor. when he 14 A. H. 14 was Governor in the '703. 15 Q. Exhibit H. This is the article from which 15 Q. And president during the '805. 16 you derived the figures abour the decline in 16 A. Well, 1 mean, that, then that may be a 17 Republican registration in Arizona since i992, is 17 commentary on the presidency of President Bush. 18 that right? 18 Q. What statistical. what empirical -- 19 A. Yes. 19 A. Both President Bushes. 20 Q. Senator. you would agree to me. wouldn't 20 Q. What empirical analysis have you seen that 21 you that there have been a large number of unusual 21 linked decline of party voter registration to the 22 events that have occurred in the political process 22 increase of political party so? money? 23 since 1992? 23 A. What empirical evidence do 1 have? 24 MR. WITTEN: 1n the world? 24 Q. Yes. 25 THE WITNESS: No. In the political 25 A. 1 have seen the registration go down and 14 (Pages 50 to 53) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1 1 1 14th Street, N.W. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain October 10, 2002 Washington, DC. Page 54 Page 56 I the money go up. I A. I believe so. 2 Q. But that could be caused by sunspots. 2 0. Versus a national average of about 18? 3 A. Sure it could. 3 A. I believe so. 4 Q. What l'm interested in is some statistical 4 Q. Senator, you referred a few times to the 5 analysis that considers all of the factors going on. 5 telecommunications bill? 6 Motor Voter, the allowance ofindependents to vote in 6 A. Could ljust mention one other thing. Why 7 primaries, the Perot candidacy, the Nader candidacy 7 was Ross Perot possible? Why was the phenomenon of 8 in 2000, the Buchanan candidacy in 2000. determines 8 Ross Perot possible? If the parties had been strong 9 the reason voter registration is -- political party 9 and the parties had appealed to our constituencies, 10 or not political party has declined is political 10 Ross Perot would never have appeared on the national 1 party soft money? Can you point me to anything? I 1 scene. 12 A. 1 can point to you some ofthe things you 12 Q. Now that, sir. is the subject ofa much, 13 have just said. We have done everything in our power 13 much longer discussion. 14 in Arizona, Oregon and other states to increase voter 14 A. I agree. But 1 don't know how if you had 15 registration. Motor Voter makes it easier. Vote by 15 had two strong, solid parties don't see where Ross 16 mail. Last week voters in Arizona could start to 16 Perot would have had an opening. taking up way 17 vote in the general election, either by mail or 17 too much of your time. 18 driving by someplace. 18 Q. i'm happy to do, it but you are aware that 19 We are trying to increase, I mean, we are 19 Ross Perot spent more money out of his own pocket 20 making it so much easier for people to vote and yet 20 than the two major party candidates were able to 21 the number of registered Republicans continues down, 21 spend in public funding during 1992? 22 so 1 think, I enjoy this debate and 1 hope that 22 A. Yes. 23 someplace we can do this publicly, on C-SPAN or 23 Q. Senator, you mentioned a number of times 24 something. But 1 think we have done everything in 24 the telecom bill. And I'm not quite clear the point 25 our power to make it easier to vote. and yet the 25 you are trying to make from that bill but let me just Page 55 Page 57 1 registration has gone in the opposite direction. I ask you this one question. What was the ?nal Senate 2 Q. Well Senator, isn?t it the case that 2 vote on the telecom bill? 3 before Motor Voter that the political parties really 3 A. I think it was three votes against it. 4 carried the lion's share of voter registration? 4 Q. 91-5? 5 A. 1 think that political parties today have 5 A. Something, something along those lines. 6 the same obligation. 1 mean, we try to get people to 6 Q. Let me ask the reporter to mark as McCain 7 register Motor Voter the same way that we try in 7 Exhibit excerpts from the Congressional Record of 8 other ways. 1 mean, when -- so -- 8 February 1, 1996 reporting the outcome of the vote on 9 Q. But today? 9 the telecom bill. 10 A. 1 say yes. Yes, 1 see your point. 10 (McCain Exhibit was 1 1 Q. The point is people can walk up to get 1 1 marked for identi?cation.) 12 their driver's license and register to vote there? 12 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: 13 A. Yes. 13 Q. Senator, on McCain Exhibit on the next 14 Q. Whereas they used to have to be visited by 14 to last page is the recordation of the vote on the 15 a political party person who would either take them 15 telecom bill which shows that you werejoined by 3.0m 16 to register or otherwise encourage them to register? 16 colleagues Feingold, Leahy, Simon and Wellstone in 17 A. When they physically went down themselves. 17 voting against that bill. Do you see that? 18 Yes. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. That's different. 19 Q. It isn't your position, Senator, is it, 20 A. I understand. 20 that the 91 senators who voted for that bill did so 21 Q. Do you know what Ross Perot's percentage 21 as a result of soft money? 22 ofthe vote was in 1992 in Arizona? 22 A. No. I believe that most Senators did not 23 A. it was high. It was in the 20s. 1 23 understand the bill, understandably because it's a 24 believe. 24 very complex piece of legislation. And the bill was 25 Q. 24 percent? 25 written in conference and it's published media 15 (Pages 54 to 57) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1 1 1 1 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain October 2002 Washington, DC. Page 58 Page 60 1 reports that lobbyists wrote parts of those bills. 1 before, hejust said it. The privilege think it's also important to note, in fact, 2 asked under the speech and debate clause. But l'm 3 it's even on this sheet, the promises that were made 3 not stopping you from answering. 4 that would, what would happen ifthis bill, when this 4 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: 5 bill was passed. Lower rates, more competition, 5 Q. I think you were about to say were you 6 Americans would be better off. lower cable rates. 6 grateful for the help? 7 ta-da-da-da-da. 7 A. These are groups of people that have been 8 Cable rates have gone up 40 percent, long 8 involved in this issue for many, many years. it's 9 distance rates have gone up, there is no competition. 9 one thing to have a special interest group write a 10 everything has been tied up in the courts and 10 piece of legislation that directly ?nancially I continues to be, so most senators did not understand I benefits them, as Opposed to an organization such as l2 the Telecommunications Act and i wouldn't expect them 12 the Brennan Center or Common Cause who have been l3 to because it's a very complex piece oflegislation. 13 involved in this issue for many, many, many years to 14 That's why we rely on committees to come forward with l4 provide us with expertise on certain issues. in my l5 legislation. 15 view. it's dramatically different. lb The promise of the legislation was 16 Q. Well. you would agree with me that whether [7 probably the wildest exaggeration as far as reality 17 they are being compensated or not, the lobbyists on 18 is concerned ofany bill that anybody around here has l8 behalf ofthe telecom industry do have a better than 19 seen passed. 19 average understanding of that complex industry? 20 Q. You mentioned that lobbyists had a hand in 20 A. Yes. 21 drafting this legislation. Am i correct that the 21 Q. And presumably, some of your colleagues. 22 Brennan Center or Common Cause and other groups had a 22 maybe even you, thought that the knowledge that those 23 hand in crafting the bipartisan campaign Reform Act 23 telecommunications lobbyists brought to the table was 24 of2002? 24 valuable to the United States Senate? 25 MR. WITTEN: object. 25 A. i thought that the information brought by Page 59 Page 61 1 MR. BURCHFIELD: He can't have it both 1 their CEOs in open hearings was very valuable. 2 ways, Roger. 2 thought that the information brought by COmmon Cause 3 MR. WITTEN: You can answer. 3 and the Brennan Center and others in open meetings 4 THE WITNESS: The -- received constant 4 that we had was valuable. I didn't think that it was 5 advice from experts all over this country that 5 valuable to have a lobbyist write a piece of 6 supported this effort. whether they be the Brennan 6 legislation and that corporation then turn around and 7 Center or Common Cause or a myriad of people. Fred 7 give huge amounts ofso? money to the political 8 Wertheimer, people expert in this area. l'm pleased 8 campaigns. Last time I heard, Common Cause and 9 to receive their advice and counsel. They received 9 Brennan Center, none of them contributed to a l0 no compensation that i know of. They received no IO political campaign. 1 lobbying fees that i know of and they didn't write 1 1 Q. So it's the donations, not the involvement 12 the speci?c legislation that was passed. We used 12 in the drafting process? l3 our staff to screen the legislation as it was I3 A. it's the involvement and the drafting 14 proposed and composed. l4 process. It's the donation that buys access. [5 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: l5 Everybody wants it in this town. 16 Q. Well, it may be urban legend, Senator, but 16 Q. lfCommon Cause and the Brennan Center are [7 it's my understanding that some groups such as the 17 not making donations, how did they get access? 18 Brennan Center and Common Cause actually had a 18 A. They get access the same way any other l9 relatively heavy hand in drafting portions ofthis 19 public interest group gets access to the Congress of 20 legislation? 20 the United States in that they represent certain 21 MR. Same objection. And -- 21 interests, but they do not represent a big soft money 22 THE WITNESS: Same objection. Just let me 22 donor. i believe every citizen should be heard 23 see, we were grateful for their help. 23 equally, and what's wrong with this system is that 24 MR. The difference is these two, 24 the big donors get the access. which means the 25 this question and the one before, you asked, the one 25 in?uence. The small donors do not. 16 (Pages 58 to 61) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1 1 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain October 10, 2002 Washington, DC. Page 62 Page 64 I Q. The American Association of Retired study. I do know that there is all kinds of ways to 2 Persons voted consistently as the number one or 2 get money for political campaigns. 1 don't know if 3 number two most in?uential organization in this 3 theirs is accurate. I know number one that Glaxo and 4 town, do they make political contributions? 4 Pharma gave $250,000 at one ?mdraiser, at one whack. 5 A. I don't think that they do. But they 5 That certainly means to me they are very generous. 6 represent to me what's right. They don't give 6 can't equate the Annenberg study comparisons because 7 contribution. They represent millions of Americans. 7 I know that there is all kinds of ways to get money 8 Look, I don't mind the phone companies come and make 8 into political campaigns. 1 can't trust the numbers. 9 recommendations. I'll be glad to meet with them at 9 Q. You would agree with me that what your bill 10 any time. but ifthey give $500,000 or $1 million to ID refers to as electioneering communications is one way I a fundraiser for incumbent, that creates the to get political money into the election system? l2 appearance in my view that is not right. l2 A. Yes. 13 Q. You refer to the generic drug bill in 13 Q. And my basic point is, are you aware that l4 paragraph 1 of your af?davit. Mr. Abrams asked you l4 the pharmaceutical industry put more money into what l5 some questions about that. I had only a couple. You IS you refer to as electioneering communications than it l6 were aware, aren't you, that the Annenberg time l6 put into direct soft money donations to the political l7 reports for both 1996 and 2000. I believe. certainly 17 parties in 2000? IS '98 and 2000 indicate that the -- that the IS MR. The question is are you aware l9 pharmaceutical industry was responsible for tens of 19 of it. 20 millions of dollars of issue advocacy during those 20 THE WITNESS: No. I'm not aware of it. 2i perspective campaigns, right? 21 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: 22 MR. Object to the form of the 22 Q. Senator, do you have any reason -- 23 question. You can answer it. 23 A. I see what y0u are honestly trying to get 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. - 24 at here, and I have no problem with them running ads 25 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: 25 like I see all the time where they say this young Page 63 Page 65 1 Q. And did you also know that the amount that lady's life was saved because P?zer developed such 2 the pharmaceutical industry spent on issue advocacy 2 and such a drug. They are a wonderful company. I 3 far exceeded the amount that it made in soft money 3 have no problem with that. And some people think 4 donations? 4 they spend too much money on that and not enough on 5 MR. WITTEN: Object to the form of the 5 etc. But if your point is that they spent a lot 6 question. You keep using the phrase issue advocacy 6 of money on advertising their product as opposed to 7 which is your argument, not a fact. 7 how much they spent on political campaigns, then I 8 THE WITNESS: First ofall, i don't know 8 will accept your point. 9 what the contents of the ads do because of your 9 Q. No. My point is a little bit different [0 de?nition of issue ads and mine. l0 than that, Senator. My point is they spend more on I 1 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: I electioneering communications than they do on soft 12 Q. Let me rephrase the question. You are [2 money donations. You don't know whether that's true l3 also aware that the Annenberg study which used the 13 or not? l4 term issue advocacy reported that the pharmaceutical l4 A. No. I'm sorry. 15 industry had made tens of millions of dollars in 15 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that y0u l6 expenditures or it is disbursements to buy political 16 can share with us if barred from donating soft money 17 advertising during the '98 and 2000 seasons? 17 to the political parties they will not simply use 18 A. Yes. 18 that money to increase the amount they spend on. on 19 Q. And you are aware that the amounts 19 political advertising outside the 60-day window? 20 reported by the Annenberg study for those 20 A. I would imagine if they had extra money. 21 disbursements by the pharmaceutical were far higher 2 they would spend it outside the 60-day window and 22 by a factor of 10 in some instances and maybe five or 22 that's okay with me, because most voters don't make 23 10 than the pharmaceutical industry donated in soft 23 up their minds until, as we all know, the lat few 24 money to political parties? 24 days and the last few hours of an election campaign. 25 A. See. I don't know about the basis ofthat 25 That's why we put in Jeffords. 17 (Pages 62 to 65) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1 1 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain October 10, 2002 Washington, DC. Page 66 Page 68 I Q. During the 1996 campaign, the reports are I Q. And that's all they are entitled to spend? 2 that Bill Clinton, as advised by Dick Morris, began 2 A. Yes. 3 running the so-called issue ads a year or more before 3 Q. Putting aside the issue that I know you 4 the 1996 election. Have you heard those reports? 4 disagree with about the political parties spending 5 A. Yes. I have. 5 soft money on their behalf? 6 Q. I happened to have been in a four-month 6 A. What's that about 2-1/2 months before the 7 trial in Detroit and saw them from October through 7 election. 8 February on the air all the time. That's consistent 8 Q. It's by my calculation. it's about 75 9 with what you have heard, right? 9 days. That's right. There is a window there in 10 A. Yes. 10 which issue interest groups could spend 100 percent 1 I Q. Millions ofdollars on issue ads more than 1 1 soft money on electioneering communications that are 12 a year out from the election? 12 totally unregulated by the statute, is that right? 13 A. Yes. 13 A. I believe so. 14 Q. And have you also heard that the strategy 14 Q. And that could, you would agree, have a 15 for doing that was to create a positive image and set 15 signi?cant effect in dictating the issue agenda for 16 the agenda for the upcoming '96 campaign? 16 the fall campaign? 17 A. Yes. And 1 also know that President 17 A. I don't think so. 1 think that people 18 Clinton wrote many of those ads within the White 18 again make up their minds, most of them, in the 1w 19 House and incredibly the FEC said that that wasn't 19 period, stages of the campaign. That's why we 20 coordinated. One of the most bizarre things in 20 conduct campaigns like we do. We don't spend all 21 American political history. 21 our money 75 days out. We spend the bulk of our 22 Q. Well, ifthe spending ofmillions of 22 money ?ve or six days out in recognition ofthe fact 23 dollars on issue ads by President Clinton and Dick 23 that there are so many voters that are still making 24 Morris was successful. as many say it was, in setting 24 up their minds. 25 the issue debate, the issue parameters for the '96 25 Q. Senator McCain, when we were here before, Page 67 Page 69 1 campaign, why are you so con?dent that the 60-day I asked you some questions about activities of 2 window is going to keep them from setting the issue 2 interest groups that would go unregulated by the 3 agenda after a bill becomes effective? 3 statute, and without replowing that ground, 1 think 4 A. Because our bill is less than perfect. 4 we agreed that interest groups could within the 5 Our bill is a product of legislation, debate, 5 60-day window continue to be involved with get out 6 discussion. This provision that you are referring to 6 the vote activities such as phone banks, print 7 at this time was not mine. It was by Senator Snowe 7 advertisements, door to door canvassing, distribution 8 and Senator Jeffords. It's not a perfect, it's not a 8 of lea?ets and so forth, correct? 9 perfect piece of legislation. 9 A. Correct. The sovcalled Snowe-Jeifords is 10 Q. Have you seen any empirical work that 10 broadcast regulation. I 1 attempts to discern the point in time at which the I Q. So anything that is not broadcast. the 12 so-cailed electioneering communications begin to 12 interest groups can and presumably will continue to 13 become effective, as opposed to the point in time 13 do, correct? l4 where they are less effective? [4 A. Yes. 15 A. Well, 1 have seen study after study that 15 Q. Let me ask the reporter to mark as McCain 16 most voters don't make up their minds until they 16 Exhibit a dOCument ?-om the NAACP National Voter 17 start focusing on campaigns, which is near the end of 17 Fund website. 18 campaigns. 18 (McCain Exhibit was 19 Q. Senator, you know that under the public 19 marked for identi?cation.) 20 ?nancing system that's applicable to presidential 20 MR. Can you tell me the scope of 21 candidates, the party, the political candidates get, 21 what this relates to? 22 presidential candidates get I think it's about $70 22 MR. BURCHFIELD: It relates generally to 23 some million now as they are nominated at the 23 paragraph 16 concerning issue ads, and it concerns 24 convention? 24 which concerns soft money donations. And it 25 A. Yes. 25 concerns his general allegations which I can't put my 18 (Pages 66 to 69) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1 1 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain . October 10, 2002 Washington, DC. Page 70 Page 72 1 ?nger on, Roger, that suggests that parties will be I A. Yes. 2 stronger once the statute goes into effect. l'm 2 Q. Paid media budget, 52 million. it talks 3 absolutely con?dent I'm within the scope. 3 about direct mail, seven pieces of mail at a cost of 4 MR. Let's see what happens. 4 about $2 million not covered by the statute, right? 5 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Senator, do you have in front of you 6 Q. Seven phone calls, two that are 7 McCain Exhibit 7 nonpartisan GOTV calls, one from Tom Joyner and one 8 A. have read it. 8 from Bill Clinton at a cost 01'52 million not covered 9 Q. We don't need to go through this in great 9 by the statute, right? 10 detail but you know from looking at this that the 10 A. Right. 1 1 NAACP National Voter Fund is stating all ofthe ll Q. Providing grants to about $2 million. 12 things that it did in advance, in connection with the 12 A. Right. 13 2000 campaign to, as it puts it in the middle of the 13 Q. Bus tours? Do you see that? 14 ?rst page there, elect a pro-civil rights president, 14 A. Yes. 15 Senate, and Congress. Do you see that? 15 Q. And then it says at the beginning of the 16 A. Yes. 16 election cycle, most pundits were predicting the 17 Q. And it's generally consistent with your 17 lowest turnout ofA?-ican-American voters in history. 18 understanding, isn't it, that the NAACP took an 18 The efforts of the NAACP National Voter Fund. NAACP l9 historically active role in the 2000 election 19 and others helped increase the African-American 20 campaign? 20 turnout by over one million votes in the areas in 21 A. Good. 21 which we were organizing. The tumout in New York 22 Q. Now, some of the things that they have 22 increased by 22 percent in 1996 ?gures, in Florida 23 done as it reports here and tell me if this is 23 by 50 percent and in Missouri by 140 percent. Do you 24 inconsistent with your recollection, they put 80 24 see that? 25 staffin the ?eld and a number of, and over 13 25 A. Yes. Page 7 Page 73 1 states, you see the ?rst bullet point at the bottom 1 Q. Those were close states electorally, 2 of the page? 2 weren't they? 3 A. Yes. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. They registered over 200.000 people? 4 Q. Florida was especially pivotal in that 5 A. Yes. 5 election, wasn't it? 6 Q. They had a get out the vote message 6 A. Yes. 7 investing over $2 million in that alone? 7 MR. Some of those votes were 8 A. Yes. 8 counted. 9 Q. 50,000 volunteers involved in the effort? 9 MR. BURCHFIELD: All ofthem. Icounted 10 A. Yes. 10 them all. i 1 Q. Contacted 40,000 people and pulling over I 1 (McCain Exhibit was 12 one million people to the polls on election day? 12 marked for identi?cation.) [3 A. Yes. This was 2000. What they did in 13 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: I4 2000. 14 Q. We have had marked as McCain Exhibit a 15 Q. Promoting a hotline, l-866-yes-vote? 15 ad from The Washington Times dated February 6th. 16 A. Yes. 16 2001. Feel free to peruse it. l'm going to ask you 17 Q. And that's not covered by the statute, 17 some questions about the statement on the page with 18 right? 18 the number 34 in the upper right-hand corner and the 19 A. No. 19 statement l'm going to ask you about is together the 20 Q. It talks about four radio spots, two 20 two political arms of the NAACP made a formidable 21 television ads. They could conceivably be covered by 21 force. NAACP of?cials said that $7 million in seed 22 the statute, right? 22 money came mostly from an unnamed single donor. Do 23 A. Yes. 23 you see that? 24 Q. But the three newspaper print ads on 24 A. Yes. 25 issues would not be, right? 25 Q. Is that ayes? 19 (Pages 70 to 73) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1 1 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain October 10, 2002 Washington, DC. Page 74 Page 76 I A. I see that. I different entity. yes. 2 Q. ls that consistent ofyour undersranding 2 Q. And ifthese. ifthese entities that. if 3 of how the NAACP funded its efforts through anonymous 3 the NAACP entity, however organized, avoided 4 large donations? 4 broadcast advertisements within 60 days of the 5 A. Yes. 5 election. that mentioned a candidate or referred to a 6 Q. And then skip a paragraph and the next one 6 candidate, all of their activities? 7 says several groups have tried to identify NAACP 7 MR. WITTENdonors. Except for corporations that make their 8 candidate's district. 9 contributions public. the list of benefactors has 9 BY MR. BURCHFIELD: l0 been kept from the public view. Consistent with your IO Q. Well, ifit avoided all ofthat. well. let I 1 understanding? I me put it this way. The NAACP and its related l2 A. Yes. But look, i believe that some of 12 organizations could do every single thing that we 13 this is, has to be done under 527 and so I don't know 13 have looked at here in these articles under your, l4 enough of a background on this, but I believe that l4 under the statute you have sponsored. except run 15 there has to be that any organization has to perform 15 broadcast electioneering ads within 60 days of the l6 a 527. So they may be in violation ofexisting law. l6 election, referring to a candidate in that Q. Are you aware of any proceedings to hold candidate's distriCt, correct? 18 the NAACP in violation of existing law? IS A. [n all candor, have to give you an [9 A. No. I don?t know of any proceedings of l9 answer in writing on that because I'm not, 1 haven't 20 the Wiley Brothers. who got together several million 20 looked at the statute since we passed it and I don't 2 dollars and ran ads entitled Republicans For a Clean 2 disagree with your assertion, but I can't give you an 22 Environment against me. I don't know any proceedings 22 informed answer on it. It's a little too complex for 23 have been brought against them because the FEC on a 23 me not having reviewed the statute in some time. But 24 3-3 tie vote not to investigate it. 24 I would be glad to try to give you a written 25 Q. You would agree with me ifone ofthe 25 response, ifthat's something that's -- Page 75 Page 77 Wiley Brothers ran those very same ads against you. I MR. I think the statute speaks 2 it would not be covered by your statute. would it? 2 for itselfand they will probably conclude that. 3 A. Yes. Because they would have to perform a 3 BY MR. 4 527. Now. when they did it, it was legal. Now they 4 Q. Senator. are you aware ofa project 5 have to perform a 527. 5 undertaken by the Republican National Committee a?er 6 Q. I may be wrong about this. It's my 6 the 2000 election called the 72-hour task force? 7 understanding that an individual acting with his own 7 A. They left me ot?ftheir mailing list again. 8 money is not required to so organize under your 8 Q. I will get your name added to all the 9 statute or under current law and that the Supreme 9 mailing lists that I'm on. 10 Court has indicated an individual can spend as much [0 A. Thank you. I of his own money as he wants without registering and I Q. You will be cursing me soon. Were you 12 reporting. is that contrary to your understanding? 12 generally aware, Senator, whether you knew of it by l3 A. I don't know. I don't know the answer to l3 that name or not, that the Republican National 14 that. 14 Committee had undertaken a large-scale efTort look at the last page of IS evaluate its get Out the vote activities in relation 16 McCain Exhibit under the date entry 2000. It says [6 to the activities of opposing groups, including but 17 2000: NAACP announces the formation of the 17 not limited to the Democratic Party? l8 Americans for Equality and the National Voters Fund. [8 A. No. l9 The voter fund, a lobbying arm of the NAACP, spends l9 Q. Let me read you, Senator, let me read you 20 510.5 million on getting black voters to the polls. 20 from a declaration submitted by a Mr. John Peschong, 2] Do you see that? 21 who was the western field director for the Republican 22 A. All right. 22 National Committee. Have you ever met Mr. Peschong? 23 Q. Senator. a lobbying organization would 23 A. No. Not that I can recall. 24 typically be a 50l(c)(4). not a 527, is that right? 24 Q. He used to be the executive director of 25 A. Yes. 527 would be a. yes, it would be a 25 former vice president Quayle's committee which was 20 (Pages 74 to 77) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1 1 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain October 10, 2002 Washington, DC. Page 78 Page 80 I located in Phoenix, in your fair state, I believe? I vote efforts. He did mind the ad that was run which 2 A. I may have met him. 2 was really a nasty ad. But there were a lot of nasty 3 Q. Mr. Peschong states in recent election 3 ads, mostly by us. I will agree. 4 cycles. have observed that some of the major 4 Q. You have also heard taped telephone 5 interest groups such as the NEA, National 5 messages that did the same thing? 6 Education Association. CTA, the California Teacher's 6 A. I certainly have. 7 Association and NAACP. have reduced their reliance on 7 Q. And that's not prohibited or regulated by 8 broadcast issue advocacy. and shifted reliance to 8 the statute, is that correct? 9 grassroots voter mobilization activities. Based on 9 A. That is correct. l0 my observation, the activities ofthese groups follow 10 Q. And then in paragraph l5 ofhis af?davit a typical pattern. A. these groups begin telephone 1 I Mr. Peschong says "the net effect of these enhanced 12 bank activity to identify supporters four to eight l2 grassroots voter mobilization efforts has been 13 weeks before the election. [3 impressive. In the I996 and 2000 presidential 14 B, for the next few weeks, these groups l4 elections, as well as the 1998 gubernatorial l5 proceed toward direct maii issue advocacy program 15 election, the Democratic ticket signi?cantly 16 targeted to their identi?ed supporters and prior [6 outperformed the Republican ticket in relation to the l7 donors. Also during this period, these groups begin l7 ?nal pre-election day polls. Looking at the 2000 18 distribution of absentee ballot applications. 18 presidential election as an example, in the days 19 C, two weeks before the election, I have 19 leading up to the election. it was reported that a 20 observed these groups begin intensive get out the 20 Zogby poll had Vice President Gore's lead over then 2 vote and voter mobilization activities. In 2 Governor Bush pegged at 43 percent to 40 percent. A 22 particular, they begin transporting supporters to 22 Rasmussen poll also predicted the margin to be three 23 early voting locations, resume operating banks with 23 points, and a Research 2000 poll showed the vice 24 strong get out the vote messages. and employ persons 24 president leading by 7 percentage points. The actual 25 to walk door to door in sympathetic neighborhoods to 25 margin of victory in California was l2 points. Page 79 Page 81 distribute literature and absentee ballots. I Let me stop there and ask if your general 2 D, on election day, poll watchers for 2 recollection is that in the days leading up to the 3 certain ofthese interest groups monitor tum0ut in 3 2000 presidential election, the ?nal post-election 4 heavily Democratic precincts. and if turnout is low 4 polls showed Governor Bush to be. if not comfortably 5 they direct their telephone banks to focus calls on 5 ahead, at least ahead more than it turned out to be 6 households within those precincts. 6 the case? 7 Let me stop there and ask you so far if 7 A. Well, a number of political pundits and 8 you have any basis to disagree with anything that 8 experts which of course I count myself as one said 9 have read you from Mr. Peschong's declaration? 9 that the revelation of the drunken driving incident 10 A. No, except Mr. Peschong should also check l0 contributed to that sharp reduction over that 72 as to how much money was Spent on these ads and 1 hours or however many hours was since its revelation. 12 you'll ?nd that they went up. i don't know what l2 That was also factored. 13 they are focusing their activities on but I know what [3 Q. You are not saying these get out the vote 14 they are focusing their money on, broadcast 14 activities or interest groups had no effect, are you? l5 advenising. IS A. I'm sure they did and I wish we had a lot l6 Q. Are you referring to these particular [6 more of it than Republican and Democrat. 17 groups, or other groups that might have been Q. I have a couple more questions. Senator, l8 spending -- 18 do you have any reason to believe that in a era when 19 A. All groups. You look down the list of l9 national political parties have only hard money 20 every group. money Spent on broadcast advenising is 20 resources, only federally regulated money, that they 21 going up. AFL-CIO, NAACP you just referred to the ad 21 are going to be more inclined to spend those dollars 22 that they ran, the president of the United States is 22 on get out the vote and other grassroots activity 23 still ott?ended by that ad. He still has, gets angry 23 than they are now? 24 when he, someone mentions that ad that was run by the 24 A. I don't think so because get out the vote 25 NAACP. I don't think he minded their get out the 25 activity and grass route activity is very 2] (Pages 78 to 81) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. I 1 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain Washington, DC October ID, 2002 Page 82 inexpensive lt's composed mainly of volunteers, It's composed mainly of people who are donating their time and effom and in many cases their phone line or their cell phone. Q. Ifit's so inexpen5ive, why are they not doing it now? A, They can't get anybody to do it because they are spending all their time raising so? money back and forth between national and state panics, MR. BURCHFIELD: That's all I have. MR. ABRAMS: Thank you, Senator McCain, MR, I have no redirect This examination is over, (Whereupon, at 5:00 pm, the taking of the instant deposition ceased.) Signature of the Witness SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN to before me this day of 2002. NOTARY PUBLIC My Commission expires: 22 (Page 82) Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1 1 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCai Washington, DC. October 10, 2002 Page 83 ability 37:12 able 10:23 56:20 above-entitled 1. 2'3 Abrams3: 4 6: 4 7:1113 9:213:3 13: 11 15: 5, 17 17: 16,2020: 8,14 20:22 211 123: 10 2717 28:3 282112922 31:13 326,11 33:7 34:20 35:6,11,17 4217 6214 82:11 absentee 78:18 79:1 absolute 18:20 absolutely 15:1 70:3 accept 65:8 access accord 49:20 accounts 21 :18,25 accurate 10:7 22:6 64:3 ACLU 32:3,8 . 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W. Suite 400 1 -800- FOR DEPO Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain - October 10, 2002 Washington, DC. 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Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCai. Washington, DC. 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W. Suite 400 l- 800- FOR- DEPO Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain Page 90 Washington, DC. 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W. Suite 400 1- 800- FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 I Senator John McCair. Washington, DC. October 1 0. 2002 Page 91 - race41:7 44:1 46:23 radio 71:20 raise 1127 27:4 37:12 48:1 raised 32:16 36:25 48:7 raising 82:8 ran 46:19 74:21 7521 79:22 RANDOLPH 4:5 rarely 50:10 Rasmussen 80:22 rates 18:11 58:5.6.8.9 read 12:22 22:16 5:20 70:8 77:19 77: 19 79:9 ready 49:5 Reagan reality 18:8 really 11:20 1324 18:16 55:3 80:2 realm 28: 13 37:5 reason 12:16,18 22:17 23:2 29:17 52:18 54:9 64:22 65:15 81:18 reasons 15:8 recall 51:12 77:23 receipts 38:19 receive 59:9 received 40:13 59:49.10 recognition 68:22 recognized 49: 19 recollection 45:22 46:21 49:21 70:24 81:2 recommendations 62:9 record 6:21 16212,16,181721919:8 33:2 57:7 recordation 57:14 records 43:21 45:20 46:10.18 record-breaking 26:16 redirect 82: 12 reduced 78:7 reduction 81:10 refer 13:13 15:18.19 18:14 24:2 29:5.9 30:8 31:14 62:13 64:15 referrals 23:21 referred 13:22 14:1 19:3 25:15 30:113121,19 56:4 76:5 79:21 referring 14:22 40:20 67:6 76:16 79:16 refers31218 33:8 64:10 re?ect 12:22 reform 13:15 20:1 24:4 58:23 register 52:12 55:7,12,16,16 registered 53212 54:21. 71:4 registering 52:9 75:1 1 registration 46:1 48:5 50:17,18 51:8,17 52:24 53221.25 54:9.15 5521.4 regulated 80:7 81:20 regulation 69:10 regulations 14:17 Rein 3222 Reindel 3:6 related 12:21 24:15 76:11 relates 21:13 69:21.22 relation 77:15 80:16 relatively 59:19 relaxed 49:15 reliance 78:7,8 rely 58:14 remember 29: 1,2 48: 17 reminding 30:16 reneged 34:14 repealed 27:24 29:22 repeatedly 31:25 rephrase 63: 12 replowing 69:3 report 6:13.15.16.18 38:18 40:2.10 reported 18:4 22:3 25:12 29:6 31:23 63:14.20 80:19 reportedly 2517.1 1 reporter 36:3 38:17 42:11 43:20 45: 14 46:25 48:21 57:6 69:15 reporting 22:6 57:8 75: 12 reports 16:12.16 18:5 45:15 47:1 58:162217 66:1,4 70:23 represent 7:13 61:20.21 6226.7 Representatives 37:7 representing 32:8 36:2 represents 32:5 reprint 6:23 Republic 51:10 Republican 1:11 4:13.15 9:24.25 17:3 25:8 26:10.17.21 29: 10 30:6 30:9 34: 18 35:3 36:2 38:20 39:24 4023.9 42:22 43:1 45:13 46:6 4825.10.24 49:19 50:17.24 51:4.17 52:24 53:5 77:5 77:13.2180216 81:16 Republicans 31 :6 49:12.14 53:12 54:21 74:21 request 31:16 required 75:8 Research 80:23 reserve 42:13 resolution 30:25 38:3 resources 47:23 81:20 respect 19:3 21:6 23: 10,22 26:17 28:6 31:132:133:24 34:18 40:14 respond 19:7 20:24 24:3 response 20:23 76:25 responsibilities 14:13 responsibility 14:19 24:22 responsible 62: 19 responsively 19:22 restrained 11:6 restricted 11:18 result 11:2 20:10 57:21 results 18:4,5 resume 78:23 Retired 62:1 retiring 48: 12 return 17:2 42:8 revelation 81 reviewed 76:23 reviewing 35:15 re?election 40:13 41 :7 46:19 right 12:9 24:21 28:16 35:18 44:3,7 44:24 48:12 51:18 52:6.10 62:6 62:12.21 66:9 6819.12 71:18.22 71:25 75:22.24 rights 70:14 right-hand 40:4 73:18 RJL 1:7.15 35:24 41:12 ROBERT 4:12 Roger 4:4 59:2 70:1 role 70219 roll 6:12 Ronald 5321.13 Room 2:2 Roosevelt 27:23.24 28: Ross 55:21 56:7.8.10.1 route 81:25 RPR 2:5 RUBMAN 3:13 rules 32224 run 10:21.24 ll:3.6.8 7627.14 79:24 80:1 running 11:18 12:10 64:24 66:3 Russell 2:1 724 R810 65:5 1 5.19 621.9 7:1 salary 40:15.19 Sarbanes-Oxley 21:14 save 12:14 saved 65:1 saw 18:4,4 66:7 saying 10:7 14:14.20 31:10 32:14 32:16 37:20 81:13 says 9:19.23 12:14 13:15 49:10 52:4 72:15 74:7 75:16 80:11 scaring 10:5 scene 56:11 Science 4:17 scope 1513,11 69:20 70:3 screen 59:13 seasons 63:17 second 35:10 37:25 38:25 41:14 42:20 44:19 46:11 Security 9:21 1024.14.16.20 12214 12:23 13:6 see 3528.20 36:17 38:1.7.24 39:3,25 4025.8 41:15.19.24 42219.20,25 4324.10.11.14 44:9 46:10.14 55:10 56:15 57:17 59:23 63225 64:23.25 70:4,15 71:1 72:13.24 73:23 74:1 75:21 seed 73:21 seek 36:14 seen 8:23.24 10:9.10 16:23 18:5 50:1 1,16 53:20.25 58:19 67:10 67:15 Senate 2:14:16,19 7:4 8:17 9:10 1626251721022 21:2122:12.17 2322 2524.23 36:4 38:25 41:13 57:1 60:24 70:15 Alderson Reporting Company. Inc. 1 1 1 14th Street. NW. Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain Page 92 Washington, DC. October 10, 2002 senatorial 10:17 38:13,20 39:1,5,8 40:10 41:12,15,2142:1,22 44:10 452146212 47:16 senators 16:25 3427,18 35:3 37:15 38:2,8 5720,22 58:11 send 47: 12 seniors 10:5 sentence 13:14,21 25:16 sentences 28:8 separated 43:6 September 13:21 seriously 44:6 servant 24:22 serve 16:3 services 40:21 session 38:4 set48:3 66215 setting 66:24 67:2 seven 21:17 36:113828 72:3,6 sham 8:5 share 55:4 65:16 sharp 81:10 sheet 5823 shifted 78:8 shocked 35:5 short 13:1 shorter 7:15 show 8: 17,21 2424,25 45:20 showed 26:11 80:23 81:4 showing 40: 10 shows 8: 12 38:25 57:15 shut 45:9 side 52:13 Signature 82:18 signed 7:17,23 signi?cance 11:13 12:1 signi?cant 68: 15 signi?cantly 27:9,10 80: 15 Silicon 21:19 similar 25:9 Similarly 30:8 Simon 57:16 simply 25:13 65:17 single 73:22 76:12 sir 28:5 29:8 56:12 sit 19:1 six 38:24 68:22 skip 74:6 small 36:25 47: 15 61:25 smaller 4923,23 Snowe 45: 14,16,21 67:7 Snowe-Jeffords 69:9 Social 9:21 1024,14,16,20 1221423 13:6 soft 13:16 16:8 18:2 1925,18 21:5 22:18 23:4,7,19 26:5 28:22 30: 12 30:17 31:7 37:1,10 37:13 39:16 53:22 542115721 61:7,2163:3,23 64:16 65:1 1,16 68:5,11 69:24 82:8 solid 56:15 someplace 54:18,23 soon 77:1 1 sorry 14:4 18:16 32:25 65:14 sort 30:23 50:11,14 sound 4620 source 31:4 so-called 66:3 67:12 6929 speak 32:9 speakers 49:19,25 speaks 77:1 special 18:21 60:9 speci?c 16:13 24:5 59:12 speci?cally 14:1 32:8 Specter 46: 1 7,19 47:2,6 Speech 60:2 speeches 49:18 spend 20:20 56:21 65:4,10,18,21 68:1,10,20,21 75:10 81:21 79:18 82:8 spends 75:19 spent 30:11 36:17 56:19 63:2 65:5 65:7 79:11,20 spirit 23: 12 spoke 21 :21 sponsored 76: 14 spots 71:20 squarely 10:1 staff4:15 59:13 70:25 stages 68:19 stalled 25:6,23,24 stand 17:8 start 10:5 54:16 67:17 state 15:20 43:15 45225 4622,24 48:5,23 49:12 50: 18,19 51:4 5221625 78:1 82:9 stated 22:20 statement 25:22 35:3 statements 16:18 states 121 4:16 5:3 8:2,16 16:24 18:17 50:19 53:2 54:14 60:24 61:20 71:173:17823 79:22 state's 9: 1 7,24 stating 70:1 1 7 statistical 53:18 54:4 statute 68:12 69:3 70:2 71217,22 7224,9 75:2,9 76:14,20,23 77:1 80:8 steady 53:3 Stenotype 2:4 stock 9218,2210:16 21:13,22 stop 79:7 81:1 stopping 20:22 60:3 stories 22:10 strategy 66: 14 Street 3:7,23 4:8 5:8 strike 17:16,17 18:23 19:12 strong 5628,15 78:24 stronger 53:5 70:2 study 63:13,20 64:1,6 67: subject 28:7 31:18,24 35: submitted 77:20 SUBSCRIBED 82:20 successful 66:24 suggested 36:10 15,15 756:12 spending 8:4 29:5 47:16 66:22 68:4 suggests 70:] summer 49:1 1 sums 37:3 sunspots 54:2 support 28:14 36:14,22,22,22 supported 16:7 18:1 1925,19 37:15 37:17 59:6 supporters 78:12.1622 Supreme 75:9 sure 9:9 10:12 19:15 2619,13 27:12 27:16 29:17,24 39:13.14 40:12 50:22 54:3 81:15 surely 39:7 surge 52:4 Susan 1:24 2:4 39:25 suspicion 27:13 sustains 15:7 sworn 1:24 7:6 82:20 sympathetic 78:25 system 24:23 61:23 64:11 67:20 3:5 6:1,1,9 table 60:23 tables 49:17 tainted 24:7 take 9:6 34:2 49:3 50:1 55:15 taken 221,4 Talent 9:21 1021 talk 4828,14 talked 24: 14 talking 34:4 talks 71 :20 72:2 taped 80:4 targeted 78: 16 task 77:6 ta-da-da-da-da 58:7 Teacher's 78:6 Teddy 2723,24 telecom 56:24 57:2,9,15 60:18 telecommunications 15:20 16:8 17:25 18:1,6,7,20 1924,20 21:7 56:5 58:12 60223 telephone 22:1 78:11 79:5 80:4 television 10:8 30: 12 71 :21 tell 10:4 20:3,12 28:25 34:7 35:1,4 69:20 70:23 telling 16:25 temporarily 17:1 1 tens 62:19 63:15 term 63: 14 terms 28:8 testi?ed 7:7 testimony 25:19 text 12:22 Thank 9:8 77: 10 82:11 theirs 6423 theme 24:6 Theodore 28:1 thing 1729,11 28:16 34:7 56:6 60:9 76:12 80:5 things 12:6 39:17 48:15 52:23 Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1 1 1 1 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCai October 10, 2002 Washington, DC. 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Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCain Page 94 Washington, DC October 10, 2002 19:23 20:24 21:9,10 27:21 32:2 33:3 47:5 51:25 5924,22 62:24 63:8 64:20 82:18 witnessed 17:7 witnesses 17:6 WITOLD 3:21 17:14 19:2120:20 21:8 27:19 31:12,20 33:5 35:10,l3,21 37:2140:20 43:6 50:23 51:24 58:25 59:3,21 59:24 62:22 63:5 64:18 69:20 70:4 73:7 76:7 77:1 82:12 won 45:21 46:1 wonderful 65:2 word 13:20 25:11 34:3 words 17:11,18 work 67: 10 workers 10:15 working world 51:24 worried 20:1 worry 16:19 34:7 wouldn?t 22:7 28:9 37:1 1,19 47:17 51:20 58:12 write 59:11 60:9 61:5 writing 14:17 16:12 76:19 written 25:13 57:25 76:24 wrong 24: 19,20 34:6 61:23 75:6 wrote 8:8 58:1 66:18 year 41:2 44:6 48: 12 66:3,12 years 37:6 40: 15 48:6 53:8 6028,13 York 3:8 6:11 8:22 72:21 young 64:25 zero 39:10 Zogby 80:20 1:7: $1 62:10 $1,000 2721128217 $10,000 28: 10 $10.5 75:20 $122,504 43: 13 $17,000 39:9 $17,500 39:140:11,13 42:2146211 $2 71:7 72:2,4,8,11 $2,000 $250,000 27:13,21 64:4 $3,000 47:9 $3,042.26 42:2 $300,000 30:! 1 $35 29:6 $4,000 45:8 $49,608.41 43:2 $5,000 40:4 44: 10.24 $500,000 62: 10 $52,000 46:14 $6,000 44:1 1 $619,000 21 :20 $69,412.18 41:22 $7 73:21 $70 67:22 $70,000 46:6 02-05572 1:6 02-874 1; 14 1 57:8 1,000 28:9 1-866-yes-vote 71:15 1/100th 40:24 101:20 21:12 37:6 6322,23 10,000 49:14 10/10/02 6:11 100 68:10 10005 3:8 11 2:3 25:3 48:24 62:14 69:24 12 80:25 12th 43:3 1200 24:25 1201 3:15 13 70:25 140 72:23 15 80:10 16 29:5 69:23 17 30:8 17th 41:17 1776 3:23 18 56:2 1990 30:13 1992 51:17,23 55:22 56:21 19961821 57:8 62:17 66:1,4 72:22 80:13 1997 36:5 38:4 39:24 43:19 1998 44:1 46:19 80:14 1999 21:20 38:15 42:23 48:18,24 2 2-1/2 68:6 20 13:21 205 55:23 200,000 27:5 71:4 2000 43:3 45:21 52:5 54:8,8 62:17 62:18 63:17 64:17 77:6 80:13,l7 80:23 81:3 20004-2401 3:16 20006 3:24 200141:17 42:2 73:16 20021220 2:3 10:17 58:24 82:21 20037-1420 4:9 20044 5:9 202 3:25 4:10,215:10 202)662-5407 3: 17 20510 4:20 212 3:9 22 72:22 224-4852 4:21 23 42:23 24 42:1,7 55:25 24th 42:4 241 2:2 7:4 2445 4:8 25 38:15 250,000 27:5 . . 3 13:14 3-3 74:24 3:20 2:3 307-3937 5:10 32 52:25,25 53:11 34 73:18 35 6:6 36 6:13 38 6:14 39 6:15 4 47:17 31:16 44:24 4058:8 80:21 405 53:1 40,000 71:11 416:16 426:17 43 80:21 456118 476119 48 6:20 18:10 5 28:10 5,000 49: 14 5:00 82: 14 50 72:23 50,000 27:22 71:9 501(c)(4) 75:24 527 74: 13,16 75:4,5,24,25 560 4:19 57 6:21 6th 73:15 6-25-99 39:1 6/11/99 6:20 60 8:15 7624,15 60-day 67:1 69:5 61 46:20 663-6640 4:10 68 44:2 69 6:22 45:21 if 7 6:4 47:11 30:24 705 53: 14 701-3000 3:9 Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1 1 11 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 Washington, DC 20005 Senator John McCai Washington, DC. October 10, 2002 Page 95 719-7330 3:25 72 26:11 81:10 72-hour 77:6 73 6:23 74 28:17 75 68:8,21 8 6:12 29:9 80 3:7 70:24 80s 53:15 883 5:7 905 52:22 901 5:8 91 57:20 91-5 57:4 96 66:16.25 98 62:18 63:17 Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1 1 11 14th Street, NW. Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005