COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

EXECUTIVE SESSION
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY,
JOINT WITH THE
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT,
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
WASHINGTON, D.C.

INTERVIEW OF:

SALLY MOYER

Wednesday, October 23, 2018

Washington, D.C.

The interview in the above matter was held in Room 2141,
Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 10:01 a.m.

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Mr. Somers.

Good morning.

2

This is a transcribed interview

of Sally Moyer.
Chairmen Goodlatte and Gowdy requested this interview as part
of a joint investigation by the House Committee on the Judiciary
and the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform into
decisions made and not made by the Department of Justice and the
Federal Bureau of Investigation regarding the 2016 Presidential
election.
Would the witness please state her name and position at the
FBI, for the record.
Ms. Moyer.

Sally Moyer.

I'm a unit chief in the Office of

General Counsel.
Mr. Somers.

Thank you.

On behalf of the chairman, I want to thank you for appearing
today, and we appreciate your willingness to appear voluntarily.
My name is Zachary Somers, and I'm the majority general counsel
for the House Judiciary Committee.
I'd now like to ask everyone else who's here in the room to
introduce themselves for the record, starting with Art Baker.
Mr. Baker.

Arthur Baker, investigative counsel, majority

staff, House Judiciary Committee.
Mr. Breitenbach.

Ryan Breitenbach, senior counsel, House

Judiciary Committee, majority.
Mr. Castor.

Steve Castor, Government Reform Committee and

majority staff.
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Mr.

.

, FBI, Office of Congressional Affairs.

Mr.
Ms.

.

, FBI, Office of General Counsel.

.

Ms. Fink.

, FBI, Office of General Counsel.

Sarah Fink,

Mr. Pittard.

I'm Bill Pittard, Office of General Counsel,

and with Sarah here on behalf of Sally.
Ms. Hariharan.
Mr. Morgan.

Arya Hariharan, Judiciary.

Ms. Shen.

Matt Morgan.
Valerie Shen, Oversight and Government Reform

Committee.
Mr. Hiller.
Mr.

Aaron Hiller.

.

, Office of Congressional Affairs.

Mr. Buddharaju.

Anudeep Buddharaju, House Oversight staff,

Mr. Gowdy staff.
Mr. Brebbia.
Mr. Somers.

Sean Brebbia, OGR majority.
The Federal Rules of Civil Procedure do not

apply in this setting, but there are some guidelines that we
follow that I'd like to go over.
Our questioning will proceed in rounds.

The majority will

ask questions for the first hour, and then the minority will have
the opportunity to ask questions for an equal period of
time.

We'll go back and forth in this manner until there are no

more questions and the interview is over.
Typically, we take a short break at the end of each hour of
questioning, but if you would like to take a break apart from
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that, please let us know.

We may also take a break for lunch at

the appropriate point.
As I noted earlier, you're appearing today voluntarily.
Accordingly, we anticipate that our questions will receive
complete responses.

To the extent that you decline to answer our

questions or if counsel instructs you not to answer, we will
consider whether a subpoena is necessary.
As you can see, there is an official reporter taking down
everything that is said to make a written record, so we ask that
you give verbal responses to all questions.

Do you understand

that?
Ms. Moyer.
Mr. Somers.

Yes.
So that the reporter can take down a clear

record, it is important that we don't talk over one another or
interrupt each other, if we can help it.
Both committees encourage witnesses who appear for
transcribed interviews to freely consult with counsel if they so
choose.

And you are appearing with counsel today.

Would counsel please state his name for the record.
Mr. Pittard.

Again, it's Bill Pittard on behalf of Sally

Moyer.
Mr. Somers.

We want you to answer our questions in the most

complete and truthful manner possible, so we will take our
time.

If you have any questions or if you do not understand one

of our questions, please let us know.
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5

If you honestly don't know the answer to a question or do not
remember it, it is best not to guess.

Please just give us your

best recollection, and it is okay to tell us if you learned the
information from someone else.

If there are things you don't know

or can't remember, just say so and please inform us who, to the
best of your knowledge, might be able to provide a more complete
answer to the question.
You should also understand that although this interview is
not under oath, you are required by law to answer questions from
Congress truthfully.
Ms. Moyer.
Mr. Somers.

Do you understand that?

Yes.
This also applies to questions posed by

congressional staff in an interview.
Ms. Moyer.
Mr. Somers.

Do you understand this?

Yes.
Witnesses who knowingly provide false testimony

could be subject to criminal prosecution for perjury or for making
false statements.
Ms. Moyer.
Mr. Somers.

Do you understand this?
Yes.
Is there any reason you're unable to provide

truthful answers to today's questions?
Ms. Moyer.
Mr. Somers.

No.
Finally, we ask that you not speak about what we

discuss in this interview today with anyone who is not here in the
room in order to preserve the integrity of our investigation.
This confidentiality rule applies to everyone present here today.
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That is the end of my preamble.

Do you have any questions

before we begin?
Ms. Moyer.
Mr. Somers.

I do not.
The time is now 10:07.

And I'll turn it over to

Art Baker to begin our first round of questions.
EXAMINATION
BY MR. BAKER:
Q

Good morning.

As we indicated when we introduced

ourselves this morning, if you need a break or something other
than water, let us know.

The goal here is to make you comfortable

as you're testifying before us today.
And I'll say from the very start, one of the reasons you're
here is because of -- I think it's generally known in the
counterintelligence community, and we certainly heard it during
our interviews of some people on the record and some interviews we
did of people that did not appear, that you are viewed as a very
competent person in the area of counterintelligence law.

I

believe that there are a lot of things related to
counterintelligence at the FBI that pass through you or that pass
over your desk.
We've heard from witnesses that testified here, a lot of
times their answers to things were they didn't know because that
happens at a level above them or they didn't know because it
happens at a level below them.

And I think you're one of the

people that were at a level where things actually happened, where
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you were involved in decisions both from what we now know was
called the Midyear Exam and maybe some decisions with the genesis
of the Russia investigation.

So that's really why you're here, to just shed some light for
us on things that we've heard and to get your opinion on some
things based on your knowledge.
You've been at the FBI for how long?
A

Thirteen years.

Q

And in what capacity have you been employed at the FBI?

A

I've always been in the Office of General Counsel.

I

started as an assistant general counsel, and then eventually I was
promoted to unit chief.

And the whole time I've worked in the

counterintelligence law unit.
Q

So your whole time, your 13 years, you say, at the FBI

has been as a lawyer and in counterintelligence law?
A

Correct.

Q

Where would you put your tenure, not necessarily in the

general counsel's office, but in the counterintelligence division
or a person doing legal things for counterintelligence agents?
Are you one of the more tenured lawyers doing that type of work?
A

There's a number of people that have had just as much

experience as I have.

We tend to stick around in OGC.

Q

Okay.

And you have stuck around why?

A

I enjoy the work.

Q

You enjoy the work.
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Who did you work for during your tenure, during the Midyear
Exam?

Who did you report to?
A

time.

So for Midyear Exam, I was an acting unit chief at the
My unit chief was acting section chief.

That is, he's a

non-SES employee, so I've been instructed by the FBI not to name
those individuals.

He reported to the deputy general counsel,

Trisha Anderson, who reported to the general counsel, Jim Baker.
Q

Okay.

So you did not report directly to Anderson?

A

No, but it's not as formal as it might be in some other

parts of the Bureau.
Q

Okay.

In preparation for your appearance here today,

did you prepare in any way, review anything?

How did you prepare

for your appearance?
Mr. Pittard.

Art, what are you getting at?

The question

makes me a little bit nervous in terms of getting into privileged
communications with counsel and that type of thing.
Mr. Baker.

Aside from any communications that you had with

Mr. Pittard, did you prepare by talking to other people who have
been before the committee, reviewing any documents?
Mr. Pittard.

So the question then -- just to be clear, the

question is excluding conversations that would have included me or
my colleague, Ms. Fink, did she have any other meetings to prepare
for this?
Mr. Baker.

Yes.

Ms. Moyer.

No.
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BY MR. BAKER:
Q

Did you review any notes that you took contemporaneous

with your duties?
A

Aside from my conversations with counsel, no.

Q

Did you review, either in preparation for this or when

it was released, the Inspector General report?
A

I read parts of the Inspector General report either

right before it was released and -- actually, right before it was
released.
Q

I don't think I've read it since.
Okay.

But did you have any conversations with other FBI

employees about today's testimony?
A

No.

I mean other than counsel.

Q

Other than counsel.

Mr. Pittard.

Okay.

Ms. Moyer.

Other than meetings that included counsel?
Correct.

Mr. Pittard.

We're excluding --

BY MR. BAKER:
Q

Okay.

You were assigned a role in the Midyear Exam

investigation?
A

Correct.

Q

What was your role specifically?

A

I think I was -- I would be considered the line attorney

on the case.

Even though I was an acting unit chief at the time,

I was still probably the line attorney, because that was something
I was experienced in.
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Q

And what would a line attorney do?

A

The line -- you would provide counsel to the

investigators as they proceeded with their investigation.

So if

they had questions about whether or not they're meeting certain
standards for a search warrant or if we should open a spinoff
investigation or any questions that might come up related to law
or policy, we would provide counsel to the investigators making
those decisions.
Q

How did you come to be chosen for the team?

A

The case was -- the genesis of the case was in

,

which is the counterespionage section at the Bureau, and that -- I
had been counsel to the

for a number of years.

So I was the

logical choice for someone to work on the case.
Q

So it wasn't where there was a posting, for a lack of a

better word -A

Oh.

Q

-- looking for attorneys to work on this big case?

You

were solicited based on your training, knowledge, expertise,
reputation, what have you?
A

There was no posting.

And I'm not sure I was solicited

or just told I was going to be doing it.

I can't quite remember.

Q

But based on the work you normally did --

A

Yes.

Q

-- in

, espionage, and the counsel you've previously

given on counterintelligence matters, you would have been a
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logical choice?
A

Correct.

Q

Okay.

Do you know how other members of the team were

selected?
A

So there was a transition.

Mr. Pittard.

And if I could just interject.

answer to the extent you know.

Certainly

But I think the instructions were

at the beginning, don't speculate.

If you don't know how other

people were picked, I don't think they want you to guess.
Mr. Baker.

Sure.

Ms. Moyer.

Right.

So I was not involved in choosing any of

the team members, but there was a transition.
case was being run from

Originally, the

, a headquarters component, and then at

one point they decided to have like a squad from a field office
come and work on the case.

And then that was the team that

actually did the bulk of the investigation.
BY MR. BAKER:
Q

Were you concerned or interested how -- once you

understood the facts of the case, I'm talking the very initial
facts of the case that would have predicated the opening, did you
have any concern about the classification of the case, that it
landed in counterintelligence versus maybe a criminal matter
or -- did you have any concerns about that?
A

No.

I don't -- I think there's some confusion about

whether this was a criminal case or not.

A counterintelligence

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case, all of our cases could include criminal charges.
the espionage cases or the cases out of

And all of

tend to

have -- similarly be both a national security case for collection
of foreign intelligence as well as potential criminal charges if
warranted.
Q

Okay.

Were there any people that you're aware of that

felt it really should have been a criminal matter and handled out
of the criminal division rather than where it ended up?
A

Not that I'm aware of.

Q

Based on other cases, having nothing to do with Midyear,

you provide counsel to the field offices too, I would assume, in
some way, shape, or form?
A

Sometimes.

The field offices have their own counsel.

They have a chief division counsel or associate division counsel,
so, I mean, our role is really to focus on the headquarters'
agents.
Mr. Breitenbach.

Real quick.

You mentioned

.

Can you

explain what that means?
Ms. Moyer.

Sure.

So the counterintelligence division is

broken up into specific sections and they're numbered.

And

happens to be the section that includes -- is the
counter-espionage section.

So counterintelligence is primarily

looking at foreign intelligence officers and their actions in the
United States.

But the counter-espionage section is looking at

U.S. persons who may be helping those or being targeted or
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recruited by those foreign actors.
Mr. Breitenbach.

Okay.

Thank you.

BY MR. BAKER:
Q

I think you mentioned chief division counsels that

service the legal needs of the field offices.

Would it be correct

to say they're more general practitioners, they entertain a lot of
different legal issues?
A

I've never been a chief division counsel so -- some of

them, I think, are more specialized, but I can't say for certain.
Q

Generally speaking, how many chief division counsels

would there be in an FBI field office?
A
ADCs.

Well, there's one chief division counsel, but they have
I just don't know -- I mean, I think almost all of them

have ADCs now, but like I said, I've never been one.
Q

Okay.

So if a legal matter, a legal issue or legal

question comes up in the field, would the chief division counsel
or his or her staff reach out to a legal unit at headquarters that
handles a particular type of law all the time for clarification or
guidance?
A

I would think it depends on the issue and whether they'd

seen it before, but, again, you'd have to probably talk to ADCs
and CDCs about that.
Q

Okay.

Who were -- you're picked as a legal -- a line

attorney for Midyear.

Once the team was assembled, you, in

particular, as this line attorney, did you serve on any -- for
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lack of a better term -- like subgroups or committees, like a
privileged team?
A

I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

filter team.

There was a

Of course, I was working the investigation, so I was

not a part of the filter team.
Q

Okay.

So you're actually working on the investigation

providing legal guidance for investigative steps?
A

Correct.

Q

What would you describe or how would you describe

your -- you've talked a little bit about the FBI's assembling the
Midyear Exam team.

It's my belief that the Department of Justice

is also assembling a team that would represent the Department on
Midyear Exam.

Is that correct?

A

I don't know what the Department was doing at the time.

Q

But the Department had people that would be at meetings

representing the Department on Midyear Exam matters?
A

Yes, but -- and they were the attorneys that usually

worked the counter-espionage matters.
Q

Okay.

What was your relationship with those attorneys?

What was the FBI's legal department or general counsel, what was
their relationship with the people that were handling legal
matters for the Department?
A

I think it's the same as it is in any other case.

would be in meetings together, we would talk over issues.

We
We

would -- they would be focused on the prosecution side of things,
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if there was going to be a prosecution, or, you know, more

criminal techniques, like subpoenas and search warrants, and I was
advising the agents about our own policies and procedures and
working with them.
Q

Was there any tension between the FBI lawyers and the

DOJ lawyers?
A

I wouldn't call it tension.
BY MR. SOMERS:

Q

I just had a question because you mentioned, I believe

earlier, that one of your roles was working on search warrants.
So what's the division there between what DOJ would do vis-a-vis a
search warrant or subpoena versus what you would do?
A

So DOJ would ultimately approve going forward with a

search warrant in a criminal case, in any of these cases.

My role

is often to help the agents, either talk to them about whether or
not they have enough for a search warrant, work with them if
they've drafted something, if there's like -- where there might be
like issues that might be missing or places where they could beef
it up.
DOJ attorneys also do that too at a certain stage, but I'm
sometimes working with the agents earlier on and helping them
present what they think the case might be to DOJ.
Q

So your interaction was more with the agents versus with

DOJ attorneys on a search warrant or is it both?
A

It's both, but probably a little bit more with the
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agents.
Q

So who would ultimately -- would it be the agent that

would ultimately go to the whatever DOJ attorney and say, hey, I
need a search warrant, or would you do that?
A

Yes, I think at the end of the day it's ultimately the

agent, but we would meet regularly like as a group, so, you
know -- I guess at the end of the day the agents would ask for the
search warrant, yeah.
Q

Okay.
BY MR. BAKER:

Q

Back to the idea of there may be being tension.

I mean,

it's my understanding that it's normal for there to be tension
between headquarters and main Justice or in the field between the
agents working a case and the AUSAs that prosecute a case.
Tension that's often, when you step back and look at it,
healthy.

It creates a dynamic where a lot of issues are discussed

that but for the tension might not rise to a point where they're
actually resolved.
A

Was there any of that kind of tension?

Yeah, I just -- I didn't want to characterize it as if

there was personal tension.

There's always -- and it's usually

that the FBI wants to be a little more aggressive than the
prosecutors or the DOJ attorneys.

And this case wasn't any

different than any other case we had.
Q

But would you say that in this case, like other cases

you've generally alluded to, was that the posture of the FBI and
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DOJ?

17

FBI wanted to be more aggressive?
A

For the most part, I would think most of the issues it

would be characterized that the FBI wanted to be more aggressive,
but that's, you know, that wasn't every issue.
Q

Okay.

I'm sure as today goes on we'll get down in the

weeds a little more on specifics, but in a very high-level general
matter, was every issue that presented itself -- and I don't want
to say FBI versus DOJ, that's too extreme -- but where there was a
disagreement, was everything ultimately resolved to the liking of
the FBI team?

Not that the FBI's view won the day, but it's my

understanding that sometimes things were talked about and there
were concessions, and there was a general consensus on things that
ultimately everybody was in agreement about the path forward on
certain matters.
A

Yeah.

Mr. Pittard.

And, again, just a caution that you should

answer to the extent you know.
Ms. Moyer.

Right.

Yeah, I couldn't speak for the entire

team, but I think -- I think that at the end of the day, we got
all the information we needed to properly investigate and assess
the case.

And so at the end of the day, I think our issues were

resolved with DOJ, in my mind.
BY MR. BAKER:
Q

You deal with -- separate and apart from Midyear, you

deal with investigations that relate to the handling of classified
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materials or the improper handling of classified materials?
A

Yes.

Q

What is your role in those cases?

field, I assume, and then what is your role?

They're opened in the
Do you advise, based

on the facts and circumstances, whether an investigative technique
is pursued?

Or what is your role in just the ordinary, normal

mishandling case, what do you add to that?
A

Let me back up for a second.

improper handling.

I think you said the

I would call them the unauthorized disclosure

of classified information.
Q

Okay.

A

And that can be both mishandling the information or

disclosing it to foreign officials or media or something like
that.

So my role is very similar to the role I played in the

Midyear case.

I work with the headquarters section, and they

have -- they supervise the field that investigates the cases and
we discuss possible avenues for -- investigative steps, what our
policies and procedures might be.

It's basically the same, I

think.
Q

Okay.

Maybe this is jumping ahead.

My colleagues will

pull back to ask more specifics if it is, but based on the
training, knowledge, expertise you've developed with these other
improper disclosure cases and what you now know in hindsight on
Midyear, was Midyear handled, from your position and what you may
know about the prosecution or declination or any decisions
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regarding prosecution or declination, was this handled the same
way that any of the other improper -- other than the sensitivity
and the caution that would go with any case involving a public

figure, were the actual facts, were they handled the same way that
any of the other matters would have been disposed of that crossed
your desk involving improper disclosure?
A

That's a really broad question.

What I would say is

that this case was handled -- the investigation of this case was
handled just like other investigations of unauthorized disclosure
or mishandling.
The management may have been slightly different because of
the public figure, the nature of the public figure, but the
investigative techniques and the steps that the case agents took I
think are the same as would have been expected in any other
mishandling case.
Q

And nothing jumps out at you about the facts and

circumstances in these other cases where a prosecution is given,
or not given, that this other case, Midyear, was handled
differently?

I think you say --

A

No --

Q

Go ahead.

A

I think the decisions in this case were in line with all

the decisions I'd seen in my experience.
Q

Do you get frustrated, in the other cases, a large

volume of documents?

And here's what I'm getting at.
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page 165 of the IG report, and you don't need to get it -A

Okay.

Q

-- you say something to the effect -- and I think it

leans towards a declination of prosecution in Midyear -- you say
something to the effect, you have all kinds of cases on your desk
with thousands of documents that were improperly handled or
disclosed and they don't warrant a prosecution.

I think -- do you

remember anything like that?
A

I don't remember specifically talking about that to the

IG or that reference in the IG report, but we have had cases like
that.
Q

Okay.

So nothing in Midyear -- you're not left with a

belief in Midyear that there were so many things that were
released or improperly transmitted that there should have been a
prosecution?
A

I do not believe that that case warranted prosecution in

line with all the other cases that I had experience with.
Q

And is that a general consensus of the Midyear team?

They reached that consensus at some point?
Mr. Pittard.
A

Yeah.

To the extent you know,

I don't know what everybody -- we didn't take a

vote, so I don't know what everybody thought.

No one raised any

concerns in my presence that this case was different.
Mr. Baker.

How was a consensus reached then?

If there

wasn't a vote, how -- there were these meetings, how would
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different opinions ultimately morph into a consensus of something?
Mr. Pittard.

I'm sorry to interject.

question presumes there was a consensus.

Art, I think your

There may have well

been, I don't know, but I'm not sure that Ms. Moyer has said so or
has said that she had that perception one way or the other.
Mr. Baker.

No.

And I'm curious what your perception was,

because we've heard that there ultimately was a consensus, that
everyone sort of came around.

And then some people have maybe

hinted that maybe not everyone came around.

I just want what your

opinion was of a consensus when there were issues in meetings that
you were in.
Ms. Moyer.
about.

So it would depend on who you're talking

So do you mean a consensus with DOJ, a consensus within

the FBI, with the investigative team?
Mr. Baker.
Mr. Somers.

Well, I mean, I think -Let's start with the investigative team.

Was

there a consensus with the investigative team that there should be
no prosecution?
Ms. Moyer.

So like I said, there was no, like, straw vote or

anything like that.

We discussed -- I was present for a

discussion in which Pete raised the issue about prosecution and
whether or not this case would go forward, and explained that he
did not think that the prosecutors thought we should -- we had a
prosecutable case here, and no one raised objections or like
pointed out specific facts or argued with that decision.
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Pete said that if anyone had concerns, they could talk to him.
Mr. Baker.

And Pete is Peter Strzok?

Ms. Moyer.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Yes, Pete Strzok.

BY MR. SOMERS:
Q

And who else was -- at least for the SES people, not

their names, but for the non-SES people, types of people, who were
in the room -- who was in the room for that conversation?
A

It was what I would call the investigative team.

And

that's the case agents, the supervisory special agent, a couple of
the analysts, I was there, Pete Strzok, Jon Moffa.
regularly.

We met

And that was the team that there -- there was one

discussion that I remember about that.
Q

And then were you involved in meetings -- so there

was a -- I think there was an investigative -- from previous
interviews, there was an investigative team and then there was
more like an executive team that, I guess, looked over the
decisions of the investigative team in order to decide whether to
prosecute or whether to recommend prosecutions, since it is the
FBI.

Were you involved in any of those meetings with deputy

director, the director, et cetera?
A

Yes.

Q

And in those meetings, was there a consensus that there

should be no recommendation of prosecution?
A

So, again, we didn't have like a specific day where we

all decided and took a vote.

But there was no -- I do not recall

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anyone making any specific concerns, raising any specific
concerns.

I think the director made the ultimate decision, but I

don't think anyone had any specific concerns about it.
Q

Was there a similar moment?

I mean, you just described

a moment where Pete Strzok said, hey, we shouldn't recommend
prosecution.

Does anyone have a disagreement?

Was there a meeting where Director Comey said, hey, I don't
think we should prosecute.

Does anyone have a disagreement?

Was

there a meeting like that?
A

I don't remember that.

It's more fluid than that, but I

don't remember any specific meeting with the executive team about
that.
Q

Are you aware of whether Jim Baker had any feelings on

whether Secretary Clinton should be prosecuted or not?
A

I actually don't know.

Q

He didn't raise any in any meetings you were in?

A

The meetings I was in, Jim would always be the voice of

poking the decision.

He didn't raise any with me.

I don't even know how to best describe that.

But he would always raise issues and make sure that people were
thinking about them clearly.

So I don't remember specifically

about this decision, but that was generally his role as general
counsel.
Mr. Breitenbach.

Can you go through some of those instances?

Can you recall any of the instances where Mr. Baker was poking at
the particular decisions being made throughout the investigation?
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

 24

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Ms. Moyer.

I can't recall any specific to this case.

Possibly, I think he raised some questions about the statement,
whether or not the director -- Director Comey should have made the
statement.

But I don't remember anything else.

It wouldn't have

registered with me because that was how Jim was.
BY MR. BAKER:
Q

Are you aware of any conversations that Mr. Baker had or

calls he made to DOJ voicing his concern, and these are my words,
that they were essentially being weak in their stance in the
investigation and kind of wanted to get it moving along and wanted
to be more aggressive on matters?
A

No, I wasn't involved in any conversations like that.

Q

You indicated earlier when we were kind of talking about

the chain of command in the general counsel's office, your
particular unit, as a unit chief you supervise other people,
right?
A

Yes.

Q

And then you're supervised by the section chief?

A

Yes.

Q

And you said the section chief at the time was acting?

A

Yes.

Q

And was below a 15 -- or below an SES -- you can't

mention the name?
A

Correct.

Q

But then above that was Trish Anderson?
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

 25

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
A

Yes.

Q

What was your view on Trish Anderson as a subject matter

expert on counterintelligence matters?
A

I was very impressed with Trisha's ability to learn.

I

don't know that she had any experience in counterintelligence
before coming to the Bureau, but immediately I took to her and I
relied on her for her guidance and her judgment.

And she was very

quick to learn the different issues related to
counterintelligence, from what I could tell.
Q

But she didn't have any counterintelligence experience

coming into the Bureau?
A

I don't think so.

Q

But she's put at a fairly high level?

A

Right, but she was the deputy general counsel for

She was a --

national security and cyber law, so that's much broader than just
counterintelligence.
Q

And she had an expertise in one of the other areas,

then, that would qualify her for the position?
A

I don't know exactly what her background was, but I know

she had had experience in dealing with some of the national
security issues both at DOJ and at the Treasury Department.
Q

So would you be in meetings with her and Jim Baker when

it related to Midyear -A

Yes.

Q

-- or were there meetings that you weren't at?
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

I mean,

 26

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

you wouldn't necessarily know if you weren't at meetings, but were
there meetings you knew about that you weren't at that you felt
you should have been at?
A

I'm sure there were at times.

But I -- yes, I'm sure

there were.
Q

Were there any meetings that you recall, even if you

only recall them generally, that you felt you really should have
been there and were upset that you weren't included in them?
A

Can I talk to counsel for a second?

Q

Sure.

[Discussion off the record.]
Ms. Moyer.

Sorry.

Mr. Baker.

Sure.

Ms. Moyer.

That's what I've been told.

Do that as many times as you need.
Well, I still want

to get out of here so I'll use it judiciously.
Mr. Pittard.

I think Ms. Moyer's testimony would be that

absent discussions that she had with counsel in advance of this,
she has no memory of that sort of thing.

And you can hear the

implication there, that there may have been a discussion with
counsel about a meeting like that, but absent that discussion, she
doesn't have -- she doesn't remember, she doesn't have an
independent memory of that meeting that you're describing or a
meeting like the one you're describing.
Mr. Baker.

Okay.

Would this jog your memory -- do you

recall anything like this:

So angry about this.

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

I bust my ass

 27

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

trying to do anything and everything around here, and come to find
out they're having secret meetings behind my back on the one case
that I'm involved in.
Is that you or someone else?
Mr. Pittard.
had with us.

And, again, excluding any discussions you've

So, yeah, you can answer in that way.

Ms. Moyer.
Mr. Somers.

I don't specifically recall that.

Ms. Moyer.

Okay.

That quote or having that feeling?

Well, I have that feeling all the time.

I mean,

it depends on the cases, so I'm sure that that could have been me,
but I don't specifically recall that incident.
Mr. Baker.

But are there secret meetings that you're not in

all the time?
Mr. Pittard.
Ms. Moyer.

If you know.
No, I don't -- I would not know if there were

secret meetings, but I'm trying to answer.

If that is a quote

from a document that I wrote, that's probably a bit hyperbolic.
Mr. Baker.

Okay.

Ms. Moyer.

I would use that to sort of to vent as opposed to

more, you know, a more accurate description of what was happening.
Mr. Baker.

Okay.

BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

So let me just -- Mr. Baker just read just a portion of

that quote, but let me just go through it just to see if this jogs
your memory any further.
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

 28

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Quote, "All these, quote, 'secret meetings' that Trish and
Jim are having re, regarding, MYE and, redacted, include George
Toscas.

I get that TBA might want to brainstorm with Stu on these

issues" -- in parenthesis -- "although I don't really see how it's
in his lane.

But why is George included and not our own people,

especially when, if the reporting is true, there is a real
conflict of interest?"
And then it goes on to repeat what Mr. Baker just said:
angry about this.

"So

I bust my ass trying to do anything and

everything around here, and come to find out they're having secret
meetings behind my back on the one case that I'm involved in."
A

Is that the full extent of the document?

Do you have

the document.
Q

We do not have the document.

Do we?
A

Thank you.

Q

This is an email.

Mr. Sinton.

Okay.

BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

We see that in the email there are OGC, Office of the

General Counsel, attorneys that are exchanging this email, but
they're all redacted.
A

Uh-huh.

Q

And the title of the person who is sending it is

assistant general counsel, national security law branch.
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

 29

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Do you recognize this email?
A
email.

So I don't recognize the email.

I don't remember the

It looks like it could have been written by me.

sounds like me.

That

And I will say I remember the issue, because I do

remember Trisha wanting to talk to Stu about a particular issue,
so I know what that's referring to.
Q

Do you know who might the other OGC attorney be that is

on this email?
A

I -- it could be a number of people.

And the two people

I'm thinking of are both non-SES.
Q

Could it be Kevin Klinesmith?

A

The two people I'm thinking are both non-SES, so I can't

Q

And he is non-SES?

A

Yes.

Q

So it could be Mr. Klinesmith that you are discussing?

A

Like I said, I don't remember --

Q

If it is you?

A

-- who I talked to about it or who it is.

Q

Do you have any recollection what the secret meetings

say.
Mr. Klinesmith, that is?

could be about?
A

Like I said, I remember the issue that Trisha was

talking to Stu Evans about.
BY MR. SOMERS:
Q

What was that issue?
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

 30

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
A

It was a classified issue.

Q

Was it related to Midyear Exam?

A

Tangentially.

Q

But it wasn't related to Russia?

Or was it related to

Russia?
A

I'm sorry, what do you mean by related to Russia?

Q

The FBI's investigation into possible Russian collusion

in the 2016 election.
A

It is not related to that.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:

Q

So I think what we're trying to understand is the

feeling of exclusion in going to secret meetings.

One, whether

that is a feeling that you were having concerning so-called secret
meetings, and then, secondly, what those secret meetings are
about.
So I think, firsthand, do you recall feeling excluded from
particular meetings where Trisha Anderson was attending?
A

So this email jogs my memory.

First of all, the secret

is in quotes, so that, again, was me being hyperbolic.

If it -- I

do think it's me, but I can't tell because the name's redacted.
Q

Although, you did just indicate that the meetings may

have been concerning classified information?
A

Right, but it wasn't -- when I put "secret" in quotes

like that, if -- like I said, I think this is me so I'm going to
answer the questions as if it is me.
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

 COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Q

31

Okay.

Mr. Pittard.

Why don't -- if I could suggest, why don't we

focus on the substance of what's in the email and what you know or
don't know about it, since the email itself, you think it might be
you but you're not certain, but probably what actually matters to
you is the substance of what they're discussing rather than -Mr. Breitenbach.

Well, actually, going back to the prior

question, just the feeling -- whether Ms. Moyer feels as if she
had been excluded from particular meetings.
Ms. Moyer.

So at the time -- there were times when I would

be frustrated with my supervisors, and I don't remember feeling
excluded from this particular issue, but this -- if this email was
written by me, that makes sense.
I'm struggling because I don't really know what you're trying
to -- what your concerns are.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

Well, do you have any particular reason to believe you

were being excluded for a particular reason?
A

Oh, no.

I think that they -- that this issue was being

handled by Trisha and Jim, and so they believed that they were
handling the issue.

I don't think I was specifically excluded

because of, you know, because of my role or because of my opinions
on anything.
Q

Have you read the classified annex to the IG report?

A

I have.
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 32

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Q

Are these meetings potentially concerning that

classified annex or issues that are included in the classified
annex?
Mr. Wellons.

May we confer with the witness very briefly?

Mr. Breitenbach.
Mr. Wellons.

Sure.

I sense a concern here about going into

classified information with that info.

So it would be helpful if

we can confer very quickly.
Mr. Castor.

Before we do that, though, there -- I mean, I

think we need to find out if these redactions -- if Ms. Moyer is
one of these redactions.

It's a little ridiculous to talk about

an email that she may or may not have written.
do is find out what's under the redactions.

And all we need to

I mean, we have six

lawyers here today.
Mr. Wellons.

We can take that back up.

I believe Ms. Moyer

has already testified that she doesn't know, but I understand
you're asking us if we can go back -Mr. Castor.

If you can go back and see what's under the

redactions.
Ms. Bessee.

To see whether it's Ms. Moyer's?

Mr. Castor.

Yes.

Mr. Breitenbach.

Let me help with that.

So how many

assistant general counsels were working on this case?
Mr. Pittard.

By "this case," you mean the Midyear case?

Mr. Breitenbach.

Correct.
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

 33

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Ms. Moyer.

Two.

Mr. Breitenbach.
Ms. Moyer.

And one was you?

Yes.

Mr. Breitenbach.
Ms. Moyer.

And who was the other?

Like I said, an assistant general counsel

wouldn't be SES, but there were -- my understanding of this email
is that there may have been -- this is relating to more than one
case.

So there could have been other people or I could have sent

it to someone that wasn't working on the case.
Mr. Breitenbach.

Okay.

If you needed to confer on the prior

question, feel free.
Mr. Pittard.
question?

And to be clear, what is the -- what's the

I know the issue is that this implicates some sort of

classified information, but what's the question?
Mr. Breitenbach.

That's exactly right.

So the question is,

first, whether you had read the classified annex to the IG report,
and I believe you answered in the affirmative.
Ms. Moyer.

Correct.

Mr. Breitenbach.

Secondly, are these so-called secret

meetings referring to the classified annex of the IG report?
[Discussion off the record.]
Mr. Breitenbach.
Ms. Moyer.

Thank you.

Yes, I believe it's related to the classified

annex.
Mr. Breitenbach.

Okay.

And can you go into what you might

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

 34

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

recall meaning when you say, "especially when, if the reporting is
true, there is a real conflict of interest"?

What might that

conflict of interest be?
Ms. Moyer.

I think that gets into details from the

classified annex.
Mr. Breitenbach.

So it would be classified information if

you answered?
Ms. Moyer.
Mr. Somers.

I don't think I can answer in this setting.
Was the meeting regarding -- or, I don't know,

what you're talking about with regard to the classified annex, did
it have to deal with whether -- I have not seen the classified
annex.

I have seen the IG report where it discusses the

classified annex.

It discusses in there that there was a

discussion about whether the material that is now contained in the
classified annex should be searched or not.

Is that what this

meeting was about that you were excluded from, to your
understanding?
Ms. Moyer.

Let me think about this.

I'm trying to think of

an answer that won't lead to classified information.
I don't think that this was about searching that material.

I

think it was more about how to handle material that they had seen.
Mr. Somers.
Ms. Moyer.

Who's they?
That we had -- I'm sorry, material that had been

discovered during the course of the investigation.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

 35

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Q

One more question I have on this.

So it starts off, the

email starts off with "all the secret meetings that Trisha and Jim
are having."

So that indicates there are more than one, that

there are many secret meetings or meetings where just the two
potentially are meeting.

But you testified earlier that you felt

that, at least in your opinion, that all the potential issues had
been settled in your mind concerning the potential of charging
Secretary Clinton.
Is it possible that, if you are excluded from multiple
meetings, that there are particular individuals who are on the
investigative team or those attorneys who are working this case
might not have had all of the details or the facts concerning
Secretary Clinton's use of classified email in any way?
A

I think that might be reading too much into this email.

Q

Well, I think what I'm asking is there are the two

primary principals within the general counsel's office who are
working on this case.

And if the two primary people working -- or

two primary principals who are working on this case are having
multiple meetings excluding the line attorney, as you called
yourself, then how can you -- is it reasonable to suggest that you
could be cut out from particular decisions made on this case?
A

Well, first, when I say all these secret meetings, I

think -- I mean, that seems to imply to you that there are a lot
of secret meetings, that, I think is just a phrase, a term of art.
I don't recall there being a number of secret -- and again, secret
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

 36

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
in quotes -- meetings.
Secondly, I know what the topic of this was, and so I -- we
had discussed it.

They were having meetings at a higher level.

was just a line attorney on the case.

I

They were meeting with

George Toscas and others at a higher level, so it did not raise
concerns for me, other than my frustration of wanting to be
included.
So that's what this is.

That's what this email is about, if

it was me, which I think it is.
Q

And again, why do you think you were excluded?

A

Because they were discussing more sensitive issues with

higher level officials at DOJ.
Q

And who were those higher level officials?

A

Stu and George.

Q

Anyone else?

A

I don't know.

Q

And Stu referring to whom?

A

Stu Evans.

Q

And George Toscas?

A

Correct.

Q

You don't know whether there were any other higher level

officials who were in meetings concerning this issue?
A

I know that they met with other officials.

I just don't

know if that's what I'm referring to in this particular email,
that they met with David Margolis.
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

 COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Q

Okay.

A

That's the only people I know about.

Q

Okay.

37

And anyone else?

BY MR. BAKER:
Q

You indicated earlier that there's an acting section

chief?
A

Yes.

Q

Were they involved in these meetings that were higher

than you?
A

No.

And at one point, our actual section chief, she was

on detail to another agency, and at one point, probably before
this timeframe, she had come back.
Q

So that would be an SES person?

A

Yes.

Q

So that would be a name you could name?

A

Sure.

Karen Davis Miller.

Q

Okay.

So she came back --

A

Yes.

Q

-- to be the section chief?

A

Yes.

But because she had not been involved in the case,

we -- I just basically worked with Trisha and Jim on the case.
Karen wasn't involved.
Q

And then the acting section chief went back to being a

unit chief?
A

Or where did they go?

Yeah.

It's a little more complicated than that, but
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

 COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

38

essentially, yes.
Mr. Somers.

Was the acting section chief, was that person

involved in the MYE investigation?
Ms. Moyer.

Not really.

Like I said, I worked very closely

with Trisha and Jim.
Mr. Somers.

So while you didn't officially directly report

to Trisha Anderson for purposes of MYE, you basically reported to
Trisha Anderson.

Is that correct?

Ms. Moyer.

That's how I'd look at it, yeah.

BY MR. BAKER:
Q

So you can't name the acting section chief --

A

Right.

Q

-- because the real rank would be lower than the SES?

A

Yes.

Q

Are they in the room currently today?

Mr. Wellons.

We would instruct the witness not to answer a

question like that yes or no because it's clearly intended to get
at the identity of a non-SES person.
Ms. Moyer.

Okay.

BY MR. BAKER:
Q

Okay.

Staying on the theme of exclusion, do you -- have

you had occasion, during your tenure at the FBI, to work with an
attorney named Lisa Page?
A

Yes.

Q

What was Lisa Page's role in relationship to Midyear
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

 39

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Exam, in relation to Midyear Exam?
A

So Lisa was not involved in Midyear Exam initially.

When Andrew McCabe was named deputy director, she began working
for him as a special counsel to him.

And so she would be involved

at that level in meetings in which he would be involved.
Q

Were you aware of any issues with Ms. Page's role as an

assistant to Mr. McCabe in getting information from Midyear
meetings or Midyear employees, and then taking that to Mr. McCabe
who occupied, as you know, the position of deputy director, but
bypassing other people in the chain of command, like the assistant
director, the executive assistant director?

Have you heard any

complaints about that?
A

Not specifically about Midyear.

complaints.
Q

And I had no

I had no knowledge of that.

Okay.

Did you hear complaints about that in other

cases?
A

I had heard that there was other executives that were

frustrated with Ms. Page's role.
Q

For the same reasons that there was information being

passed to a higher level that was bypassing them or for what other
reasons?
A

I'm not exactly sure.

I just don't think they

appreciated her having, having a role or expressing opinions in
meetings.
Q

Was Mr. McCabe aware of this frustration?
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

 40

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
A

I wouldn't know.

Q

Were you aware of any discussions or concerns about what

Ms. Page's title would be working for Mr. McCabe?
A

No.

Q

Special counsel versus special assistant?

A

No, although there was a running joke about special

assistant so -- but not related to Ms. Page, specifically.
Q

So what is the running joke?

Is a special assistant not

desired or is a special -A

Oh, no, I think it's a good job, but if you shortened

the title it -Q

Oh.

A

Yeah.

So I don't know that people wanted to be called

special assistants after -Q

Okay.

That's the running joke.

Is that the only reason

they wouldn't have to have the title?
A

Oh, yeah.

Q

It's my understanding that there was some more prestige

was attached for some reason to the title of "special counsel"
versus "special assistant," that it might mean more in the outside
world, outside of government?
A

Oh, I don't know.

Q

Okay.

I have no idea.

What -- in your role as a line attorney, you

didn't answer to Lisa Page and you didn't supervise Lisa Page?
A

I did not -- in this case, I did not answer to Lisa.
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

I

 COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
did supervise her for a short period prior as acting unit chief.
Q

Prior to this case?

A

No, prior to her becoming the deputy director's special

counsel.
Q

Okay.

So was it during this case for a short time?

A

Yeah, I think it was.

Q

Okay.

So she had some knowledge of Midyear prior to

going to -A

She wasn't assigned to the case.

Q

Okay.

A

She was working a different --

Q

Other matters but you were her supervisor --

A

But I was her supervisor --

Q

-- in your counterintelligence unit?

A

Yeah, as acting unit chief.

Q

So she had some counterintelligence experience --

A

Yes.

Q

-- prior to going to Mr. McCabe's office?

A

Yes.

Q

Okay.

Page?

What was your nonofficial relationship with Lisa

Were you friends, social acquaintances?
BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

I'm sorry, just to interrupt.

During the time that you

were supervising her, you said she was not involved in the MYE
case, was she at all involved in any case related to Russia?
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

41

 42

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
A

Again, can you -- Russia generally, or --

Q

Russia generally.

A

She worked on counter-proliferation matters so that

covers the whole world.
Q

So you're not aware whether she was involved at all in

any efforts, any case investigating efforts by Russia to influence
the 2016 election prior -- during the time that you were
supervising her?
A

She would not have been involved in any case like that

during the time I was her supervisor.
Q

Okay thank you.
BY MR. BAKER:

Q

What was your nonwork-related relationship with Lisa

A

We're friends.

Q

And when you say "friends," you socialize outside of

A

Yes.

Q

How long have you been friends with Lisa Page?

A

Probably from the time she started working in NSLB.

Q

And that was when, or approximately?

Page?

work?

Years, months,

many years?
A

A few years, I think, maybe 2014, 2015.

Q

Was she in the Bureau before you were or she came after?

A

She came after.
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

 43

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Q

Okay.

So she's there somewhere lesser than 13 years?

A

Yes, definitely.

Q

Okay.

Were you ever concerned about activities of Ms.

Page that were not work related?
A

No.

Q

Were you aware she was having an affair with Peter

Strzok?
A

No.

Q

You did not bring the affair to the attention of anyone?

A

No, unaware of it.

Q

So you learned about it when the public learned about it

through the texts and the publication of certain texts?
A

I learned about it when the, I believe The Washington

Post had an article.
Q

Okay.

In your -- I know you're not the espionage unit,

or you don't work in the espionage unit.

Did you say you did work

in the espionage unit at one time?
A
agent.

I have never investigated espionage cases.

I'm not an

So I, but I have been counsel to the counter-espionage

section, yes, which investigates the espionage cases.
Q

Is there concern in espionage matters, or is an

indication or a vulnerability to commit espionage, is having an
extramarital affair something that you're familiar with in your
knowledge of espionage matters?
A

That's one of many factors that can be used to try to
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

 COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

44

recruit a subject.
Q

But it is a factor for recruitment?

A

It can be, yeah.

Q

So it is a potential weakness?

A

Sure.

Q

A potential vulnerability?

A

More specifically, the secretive nature of it.

Q

So if it were open and notorious, it might not be as

much of a vulnerability?
A

That's my understanding.

But like I said, I've never

investigated, myself, investigated espionage cases.
Q

But it sounds like from what you said moments ago, the

relationship between Ms. Page and Mr. Strzok was not notorious?
A

I was unaware of it.

Q

And you were close friends with Lisa Page?

A

I was friends with her, yeah.

Q

So it's probably something you would have known about if

it were out in the open?
A

Oh, probably.

Q

Are you aware of anybody, not Lisa Page, making you

aware of it?

You didn't know anything about it until The

Washington Post story?
A

Correct.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:

Q

Switching gears slightly.

Were you ever aware whether

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

 45

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
there were any meetings with the Obama White House during the
pendency of the MYE investigation?
A

I was unaware of any meetings like that.

Q

So did you ever attend any meetings at the White House

concerning any cases that you've ever been involved in?
A

That's a big question.

I have attended meetings at the

White House.
Q

Concerning particular cases?

A

Not the White House.

Q

Sure.

A

The executives, the executives.

Yeah, possibly concerning specific cases, but in order to do
that, there is a policy in which we coordinate with the Department
of Justice before meeting with the White House about a particular
case that could involve criminal charges.
Q

Okay.

Can you explain some of that policy?

A

That's basically it.

There is a policy that if we are

talking to the White House about strictly national security
issues, we don't need to go to DOJ, although we often will.
the FBI.

We,

But if the FBI intends to talk to the White House about

a case in which, I think it says something about charges are,
like, being considered or actively investigated, criminal charges,
then we, the FBI goes to, and makes sure the Department of
Justice, that the DAG's office is informed.
Q

So as the line attorney, would have you been aware
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whether there were any meetings at the White House concerning the
MYE investigation?
A

I think I would have been aware, but I wouldn't

necessarily -- I wouldn't have had to check off on something like
that.
Q

Are you aware whether there was any interest expressed

by anyone in the White House during this period in the FBI's
investigation?
A

I'm unaware of it.
BY MR. SOMERS:

Q

I think you said earlier you've been involved in the

investigative side of espionage cases?
A

Yes.

Q

793(e)?

A

It's 793 generally.

Q

Well, I'm asking you specifically.

A

Specifically 793(e)?

Yes, although I always get that

confused with 793(f).
Q

I think there is some confusion in our minds between

793(e) and 793(f).
A

I'm sorry, I get it confused with 793(d).

I misspoke.

793(f) is the gross negligence provision.
Q

793(f) is the gross negligence.

793(e) --

A

I always get 793(d) and (e) confused.

charges that are most likely to be used.
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Those are the

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Q

47

Have you ever been involved in an investigation

involving 793(f)?
A

No.

Q

Outside of Midyear Exam?

A

Let me clarify.

I have not been involved in which we've

charged -- we, the Department of Justice -- have charged 793(f).
Q

I guess what I'm asking is have you been involved,

because you're on the investigative side of it where, at least
during the investigative stages of a case, 793(f) -- I'm asking
this question excluding Midyear Exam -- where 793(f) was
considered in the investigative stages of a case?
A

We have raised it maybe once.

The FBI has raised it

maybe once that I remember in my experience.
Q

Outside of Midyear?

A

Outside of Midyear.

Q

And what was the reaction from the Department of

Justice?

I assume when you say you raised it, meaning you raised

with the Department of Justice?
A

Correct.

And they were not inclined to charge that

particular provision because they were, I was told there were
constitutional concerns.
Q

Okay.

And that instance was prior to Midyear Exam or

after?
A

Prior.

Q

Okay.

And 793(f) was raised in the Midyear Exam
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investigation?
A

I don't remember discussing it specifically.

clarify that.
case.

Let me

We definitely discussed 793(f) at the end of the

I don't remember talking to the prosecutors during the

case, during the --you know, prior to the May/June timeframe about
793(f).
Q

So when you say the end of the case, you mean May, June?

A

Timeframe.

Q

So why was it raised at that point in time?

A

Because we were, at that point in time, considering what

potential charges --if there was anything that we had not
considered.
Q

So what was under consideration prior to the May/June

timeframe?
A

Like I said, I get confused between 793(d) and(e).

Q

So one of those, not 793(f)?

A

I think, and I apologize if I'm making things confusing.

Because we don't talk about it as, like as specific charges.

We

talk about what we found and whether -- so it's not like we had a
discussion about each section of the statute, we just talk
generally about prosecuting and discussed sort of what the facts
were.
Q

And what's your understanding of what is required under

793(f) in terms of knowledge, mens rea?
A

So I know that the statute says gross negligence.
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understanding is that the legislative history and the case law
would make it closer to an intent of willfulness.
Q

You understand that how?

A

Based on my review of the legislative history and some

of the few cases that were published on -Q

Have you talked to the Department about what is

required?
A

Not specifically.

Like I said, I had talked to them

previously about a different case on 793(f).
Q

Was it your understanding that the Department wouldn't

allow 793(f) to be prosecuted in the Hillary Clinton matter?

Or

charged, I should say?
A

So the Department makes final charging decisions, and

it's been my experience that they don't charge 793(f).
Q

I'd like to show you a document here, ask you to -- it's

a multiple pages -- this is the page we're concerned with here.
I guess my question is have you seen this chart before?
A

Yes.

Q

And then obviously, I've been asking about 793(f) so

that's the block on the chart that I care about and it's just the
last bullet.
Mr. Pittard.
Mr. Somers.

Zack, can you give us a minute to look at it?
I'm just trying to tell her where to look.

not asking the question right now.

I'm

I'm just looking at the note

in the middle.
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Mr. Pittard.
these emails.

Is the chart -- it is an attachment to one of

Oh, it's an attachment to the top email on the

string?
[Discussion off the record.]
Ms. Moyer.

Okay.

BY MR. SOMERS:
Q

So looking at the bullet point there that says "note,

DOJ not willing to charge this, this being 793(f)."

Is that your

understanding of DOJ's position?
A

Yeah.

Q

Generally or specifically with regard to this case?

A

Generally.

Q

Generally.

A

I don't recall any specific conversations with this case

I guess I'll --

with them.
BY MR. BAKER:
Q

Real quickly going back just a second.

If we were told by an FBI employee that you affirmatively
reported the Lisa Page/Peter Strzok affair to supervisors, how
would you assess the validity of that information?
A

That's not true.

Q

Thank you.

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[11:19 a.m.]
Mr. Morgan.

And it is 11:19, and we are back on the record.
EXAMINATION

BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

Just as an opening matter, Ms. Moyer, I just want to

say, you know, we're going to cover some of the same ground that
we did in the previous round and just we'd ask for your patience.
Some of the questions might seem a little redundant, but we're
just trying to make certain that the transcript is as complete and
accurate as possible.
A

Okay.

Q

But before we kind of touch on some of these issues, I

wanted to start with some questions raised by our colleagues in
the previous round related to this April 8, 2016, email about
these, quote, unquote, "secret meetings."

So, again -- and I

think you pointed this out several times previously, but secret is
in scare quotes in this email, correct?
A

Correct.

Q

And you said previously that you were being a little

hyperbolic; is that correct?
A

I did say that.

Q

Yes.

Do you feel that Ms. Anderson and Mr. Baker were

trying to hide something improper from you when you -A

No.

At the end of the day, I -- this is something that
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52

they were handling as the executives, the senior attorneys on the
matter.
Q

And I just want to be clear about something, you are not

at the SES level, senior executive service level, correct?
A

That is correct.

Q

But they are; is that correct?

A

Yes, that's correct.

Q

And you're a unit chief, but you also reported

to -- report to a section chief, I believe you said, correct?
A

Oh, yes, and the deputy general counsel and the general

counsel.
Q

Right.

So would it be fair to say then that this was a

meeting between your boss' boss and your boss' boss' boss, or to
word it another way, that this was a very high-level meeting,
correct?
A

Yes.

Q

And would you say that you were express -- and sorry,

this email, the recipient is redacted, but this person would be
below the SES level too, correct?
A

I would expect so because of the redactions.

Q

Okay.

And would you -- would it be fair to say that you

would characterize that this is an email between you and a work
colleague or a -A

Oh, yeah.

Q

Right.

And a -- kind of a -- I'm sorry.
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A

53

Again, if I wrote this -- I'm pretty sure I wrote it,

but I can't tell for certain, but, yes, if I wrote this, it was an
email between me and a colleague where I'm venting.
Q

Okay.

Correct.

So would it then be fair to kind of

characterize this as kind of any kind of similar workplace email
where two colleagues are kind of venting the fact that the
higher-ups are kind of excluding you, and -- not because of any
improper reasons, as you said previously, but because of just -- I
think you said previously -- expressing some frustrations that,
you know, you're not being perhaps recognized for your hard work
by being included in some of these?
A

Right.

Correct.

Q

So you don't believe that they were trying to exclude

you for any nefarious purpose or -A

Oh, no.

Q

Right.

This was just more of a workplace, petty

workplace grievance?

Would that be fair to kind of characterize

it as that or -Mr. Pittard.
Ms. Moyer.

I would object to the reference to petty.
Yeah.

I would say --

BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

A minor workplace grievance?

A

It was me venting my frustrations, which -- again, if I

wrote this, which is not uncommon.
Q

Right.

Oh, go right ahead.
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54

BY MS. SHEN:
Q

Yes, I'll disassociate myself with the word "petty"

specifically.
Mr. Morgan.

Pardon me.

BY MS. SHEN:
Q

But just so I understand correctly, and kind of to

recap, you know, this was a meeting you felt excluded from, and
you felt some frustration, but it wasn't due to any substantive
improper reasons.

Is that correct?

A

Not -- no, I don't believe so.

Q

Okay.

And so you never suspected Jim Baker or Trisha

Anderson as being part of something that was politically biased or
inappropriate?

Like that wasn't the reason why you made these

comments, if you, in fact, had made these comments?
A

No, not -- I never suspected that.

Q

Okay.

And as my colleague was describing before, you

know, I know that I've -- you know, I personally have perhaps made
very similar comments about certain colleagues having, you know,
quote/unquote, "secret meetings" without me, you know, people have
meetings and sometimes include some people and not include others.
So would it be fair to say that these are the comments that
are -- might be pretty typical in any workplace by any number of
types of colleagues?
A

I don't know about typical in other workplaces, but this

is not surprising to me about -- if I made these comments on this
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case or I may have made comments -- similar comments on other
cases.
Q

It's typical for me to complain about that sort of thing.
Okay.

And so there's no reason to believe that these

comments are an indication of some kind of problem that should
bring into doubt the legitimacy of the investigation?
A

Right.

Q

Okay.

Thank you.

BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

So just kind of turning back to kind of some general

questions about the Midyear Exam investigation, what kind of
decision-making authority did you hold regarding investigative
decisions in Midyear Exam?
A
counsel.

I don't make investigative decisions at the FBI.
I'm an attorney.

I'm a

So I would advise the investigators,

and sometimes the executives about what our policies and
procedures are, what the law is.

You know, it's an advisory role,

not a decision-making role.
Q

Okay.

So would you say it'd be fair to say that you

held no authority to make investigative decisions like how to
acquire evidence or what order in which to interview subjects?
A

Correct.

Q

What decision-making authority did you have for legal

decisions in the Midyear Exam case?
A

That would depend on what the questions were.

You know,

I made -- the prosecution decisions, and like I explained earlier,
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like whether to get subpoenas and search warrants, those are more
criminal process issues.

That's -- the final decision-makers on

that are at the Department of Justice.
Q

So you've just played more -- as you said, you played

more just an advisory role regarding even searching whether or not
to obtain process or obtain compulsory process or -A

Correct.

I would advise the agents about what to ask

for maybe, or how best to present the facts to the DOJ attorneys.
Q

Can you describe the process by which the Midyear team

narrowed down the range of relevant statutes in the Midyear case?
A

So there was no particular process.

This is more of

a -- like there's no like way that we just sit down and look at
all the statutes together as a team.

It is -- as we collect

evidence about the case, we talk about -- as the investigators
collect evidence about the case, there are discussions about, you
know, what this might help prove related to different elements of
different charges.

But this idea that there was a meeting that we

discussed particular charges, either internally with the
investigative team, or with the Department of Justice, it's not
like that formalized.
Q

Okay.

So you would say it's more of an organic process

informed by the experience of Justice Department prosecutors
familiar with handling classified information cases, or discussion
with them kind of -- from what you describe, it's not formal.
It's more just informal, organic -COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

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A

It's --

Q

-- running discussion?

A

Yeah.

57

There's not a specific day where we sit down and

look at all the elements and discuss whether or not the evidence
meets that statute.
Q

Would you say, though, that that process though was

informed by independent legal research conducted by FBI lawyers
like yourself?
A

I don't recall -- well, yeah.

Yes.

Q

At any point, did any improper consideration, such as

political bias, enter the discussion on what statute to apply?
A

Not in -- I was not aware of any discussion like that.

Q

Did any political appointee -- to your knowledge, I

should say, did any political appointee at DOJ direct your team to
use, or not use a particular statute in this matter against the
prevailing opinion of the Midyear team?
A

I was unaware of anything like that.

Q

What was your professional relationship like with Lisa

Page?

I think you touched on this previously, but -A

My professional?

Q

Yes.

A

So for a short time, she was an attorney in my unit when

I was acting unit chief.

And then when she worked with the Deputy

Director, I would interact with her regularly about this case and
possibly other counterintelligence matters.
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Q

Okay.

58

So in your time working together with her, both

on Midyear and then previously when you supervised her, did you
ever witness Lisa Page taking any official actions based on
improper motivations, including political bias?
A

No.

Q

What was your professional relationship like with Peter

Strzok?
A

We had worked on numerous cases together over the course

of my 13 years there.
Q

Okay.

So in your time working together, both before and

during the Midyear Exam, did you ever witness Peter Strzok taking
any official actions based on improper motivations, including
political bias?
A

No.

Q

What was your professional relationship like with Jim

Baker?
A

He was the general counsel, so he was my supervisor's

supervisor's supervisor, I think you put it.
Q

Okay.

But in your time working with him -- I know you

are involved in various -- did you ever witness Mr. Baker taking
any official actions based on improper motivations, including
political bias?
A

No.

Q

What was your professional relationship like with Andrew

McCabe?
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A

I don't know how to -- he was the deputy director, so I

did not work directly with him, although I was in a number of
meetings with him related to this case and some other matters.
Q

So based on your experience with him generally, and then

including the Midyear Exam, did you ever witness Mr. McCabe taking
any official actions based on improper motivations, including
political bias?
A

No.

Q

I believe the answer will be somewhat similar, but what

was your professional relationship like with Director Comey?
A

The same.

He's the Director.

I am a unit chief now.

I

would not normally be working directly with the Director, but I
did have a number of meetings with him about this case and other
matters.
Q

So based on that experience with him, albeit it sounds

somewhat limited though, did you ever witness James Comey taking
any official actions based on improper motivations, including
political bias?
A

No.

Q

What was your professional relationship like with Trisha

Anderson?
A

So although she was not my direct supervisor, I worked

with her closely on a number of issues.
Q

And in your time working together with -- did you ever

witness Ms. Anderson taking any official actions based on improper
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motivations, including political bias?
A

No.

Q

In your experience, was there any improper political

interference with the Clinton investigation?
A

I did not see anything like that.

Q

Is it consistent with your experience that the case was

investigated, you know, quote/unquote, "by the book"?
A

I don't know what to say about by the book.

I will say,

like I said previously, that this was in line with other cases
that I have seen with similar facts in my experience with working
with the counterespionage section.
Q

In your experience, did any political appointees at DOJ

intervene in or attempt to intervene in the Midyear investigation?
A

I did not hear anything about that.

Q

Did any political appointees at DOJ give inappropriate

instructions or attempt to give inappropriate instructions about
the conduct of the Midyear investigation?
A

Nope.

I have no experience with that.

Q

Are you aware of any conduct by any member of the

Midyear team that had the effect of invalidating the outcome of
the investigation?
A

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Q

Like did anyone take any -- did anyone take any

steps -- pardon me.
Could any one person alter the outcome of the investigation
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in any way, or were they in a position to be able to do so?
A

I wouldn't think so.

In my experience, we -- like I

said before, we had meetings, we discussed issues as the
investigative team, as well as the executive team.

So I don't

think any one person had the authority to make those, or the
ability to make decisions without the other folks on the team -Q

At least knowing what was --

A

-- or being suspicious of it.

Q

All right.

In your view, was the Clinton email

investigation as thorough -- a thorough and fair investigation?
A

Yes.

Q

So I want to turn now to questions regarding the FBI's

gathering of evidence related to the intent of Secretary Clinton.
From our -- I think our understanding from the IG report is that
fairly early on in the FBI investigation, I think you all
determined that intent would be -- evidence of intent would be key
to any possible charges.
A

Would you say that that's fair?

That's probably fair in most cases where you're thinking

about criminal charges.
Q

Okay.

In most investigations, even before the last

witness has been interviewed, do investigators and prosecutors
discuss whether there is enough evidence to charge a case?
A

Like I said, I don't remember like a specific meeting

where we discussed this, but in most -- in my experience in
investigations, these are sort of -- or, you know, discussions
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that -- they're iterative.

You talk about them as the case is

going along.
Q

And those discussions would include other things such as

where to search for additional evidence, and whether searches for
additional evidence have been successful, that type of thing?
A

So --

Q

That's done before even the last witness is interviewed,

correct?
A

So it sounds like those are two different questions.

So

generally, yes, the discussions are, you know, this is
what -- what I've been in part of discussions in which we talk
about what evidence has been discovered and what additional
evidence we might need for particular charges or that -- places we
can go to look for that.
The second part of your question, I think, was more about the
timing.
Q

Is that right?
More just whether those searches have been -- for

additional evidence, have been successful, that you found what you
thought you might be looking for or -A

Sure.

That's sometimes discussed.

Q

In your experience, when in the lifecycle of a case do

those discussions start?
Mr. Pittard.

Sorry, can you clarify?

BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

Regarding the previous question, in terms of like when
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you start to discuss it, whether or not there's enough evidence to
charge a case, when in a lifecycle do those questions typically
occur?
A

It really depends on the case, but it goes on as the

case is being investigated.
Q

So it's ongoing at various points?

A

Yeah.

But it -- yeah.

But I couldn't say specifically,

because it would depend on the facts and circumstances of each
case.
Q

Even before the last witness has been interviewed in a

case, do investigators and prosecutors typically discuss the
chances of success for a potential case, not just in terms of
obtaining an indictment, but also at trial?
A

Sure, yes.

Q

Sorry.

Just to clarify for the record, kind of why it

is I am asking questions in this vein, there have been allegations
made that decisions regarding whether to charge Mrs. Clinton was
made early in the case before all the evidence was in, or that
there were improper motivations.
So what I'm trying to get at is, kind of, you know,
typically, when do you have discussions like this in a case just
generally as we previously discussed, and then I'm going to kind
of go into questions more specific about the Midyear.
what we're kind of -- we're trying to get at.
A

Okay.
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But that's

 64

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Q

There have been allegations that the decision to charge

her had been made before all the evidence was obtained, before
there were interviews, before she was -- obviously
famously -- before she was interviewed.

So that's where this line

of questioning is headed, just for context and for the record for
you.
A

Okay.

Q

So with that in mind, was Secretary Clinton's knowledge

and intent key to the FBI's recommendation not to charge Secretary
Clinton?
A

I --

Mr. Pittard.
Ms. Moyer.

To the extent you know.
Yeah.

So I did not make the final determination

about the recommendation.

That was Director Comey.

BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

Right.

A

I don't know about the term "key."

significant factor.
Q

Okay.

It was certainly a

There were other factors as well, I think.

But based on your understanding of the case, why

was the lack of evidence on intent fatal to the case?
A

So based on my experience and my understanding of the

facts, the -- there -- most of the charges for -- under 793
require an element of intent.
Q

Right.

When did you first understand that evidence of

Secretary Clinton's intent would be important to the charging
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decision?
A

I expected that from the very beginning, because, like I

said, in my experience, normally the intent is relevant to any
criminal charge, and in specifically, to 793.
Q

Did the FBI ultimately find sufficient evidence of

Secretary Clinton's knowledge and intent to
recommend -- sufficient to recommend charging a criminal case
against her?
A

So ultimately, the Director made a decision not to

recommend prosecution.
sufficient or not.

I'm not sure I can clarify whether it was

That was the final decision.

So, I mean,

I -- the Director ultimately made the decision not to recommend
prosecution.
Q

Okay.

But do you -- but in your experience, do you

think they found sufficient evidence?
A

Do you agree with that --

So I agree with the decision not to recommend

prosecution, yes.
Q

Is that based on the fact that there wasn't enough

evidence regarding intent?
A

It was based on that and also my experience in other

cases on what would be required.
Q

Okay.

Did the FBI --

BY MS. SHEN:
Q

Sorry, just to clarify one point.

So you said it was

the Director's decision not to charge Secretary Clinton
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ultimately.

Is it your understanding that that was based upon

the -- you know, the careerist FBI's collectively, you know, not
finding sufficient evidence to support, you know, charging
Secretary Clinton?
A

So I don't know -- you know, I don't know exactly what

the Director was thinking.

But I do know that the investigative

team briefed the Director on what the facts and circumstances that
we -- that the team had found.

So I expect that that was part of

the decision-making process.
Q

Okay.

So you don't have anything that would contradict

the FBI, you know, not finding -- sorry.

Let me rephrase.

You aren't aware that the FBI did, in fact, find sufficient
evidence to charge Secretary Clinton and then Director Comey
somehow overruled that decision?
A

No.

There -- that's -- that was not what I was

implying.
Q

Okay.

So it would be consistent, with your

understanding, that whatever evidence the FBI had and briefed
Director Comey, that wouldn't have been sufficient to charge
Secretary Clinton?
A

That would be my opinion.

decisions about prosecuting.

I don't make the final

That's normally not my role.

that would be my opinion based on what I was told.
Q

Okay.

Thank you.

BY MR. MORGAN:
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But

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Q

67

Continuing, did the FBI investigate this matter as

aggressively as it would any other -A

Yes --

Q

-- in your experience?

A

-- in my experience.

Q

When did the Midyear team roughly complete the review of

the emails in this case?
A

What emails?

Q

Just the -- so based on the emails that the FBI reviewed

from Secretary Clinton, when was that review complete, the emails
that the FBI obtained?
A

So the FBI obtained various emails throughout the course

of the investigation.
Q

Right.

When was that -- but when was that

review -- that ultimately the review of all that information that
they had obtained, when was that roughly completed?
A

You mean prior to the July 5 statement?

Ms. Shen.

Whether or not it's prior to the July 5 statement,

if you can remember.

So, you know, the body of evidence of

Secretary Clinton's emails, do you recall when the review of all
of her emails was completed?
Mr. Pittard.

If I could interject, I think maybe some of the

confusion is, one of the issues that came up in the investigation
was that, as I understand it from public reporting, that the FBI
did an investigation, presumably reviewed some emails, came to a
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determination on its recommendation to DOJ.

Later, some

additional emails were located, and I think that might be the -Ms. Shen.

Yes.

Thank you for the clarification.

So --

BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

Yes.

Thank you.

We're talking about before Mr. Comey made -- in July, made
his recommendation regarding charging, so prior to the July 5
statement.
A

So prior to the July 5 statement, I don't know

specifically when it was completed.

It was within -- like around

June.
Q

Okay.

Did those emails yield any, you know, smoking gun

evidence of Secretary Clinton's intent?
A

So I don't want to use the word "smoking gun," but I do

not believe that the -- I did not see any of those emails that
indicated any sort of intent.
Q

Okay.

Do you know when the Midyear team -- when did the

Midyear team interview the individuals who had sent Secretary
Clinton classified information or emails?
A

Do you recall?

That was throughout the course of the investigation.

Mr. Pittard.

If I could, I think the question -- could you

repeat the question, please?
BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

When did the Midyear team interview the individuals who

had sent Secretary Clinton classified information in her emails?
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A

Yeah.

Do you have any -- do you have a specific person?

Q

I am just asking just generally.

A

Oh.

Q

Was it throughout the investigation?

A

The FBI team conducted a number of interviews throughout

Was it --

the investigation.
Q

Okay.

And did it --

BY MS. HARIHARAN:
Q

Were you involved in those interviews?

A

I went to one interview.

Q

Which one?

A

What's his name?

Patrick Kennedy.

BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

To your knowledge, did those interviews yield any

smoke -- I know your -- any smoking gun evidence of Secretary
Clinton's evidence of Secretary Clinton's intent or any
dispositive evidence regarding her intent?
A

Not to my knowledge.

Q

To your knowledge, did the investigation ever yield any

evidence dispositive of Secretary Clinton's intent at all?
A

I'm sorry, could you repeat it?

Q

Strike that question.

A

Okay.

Q

I'm going to read you a section from the inspector

Let's continue on.

general's report, which states, quote, "Our review found that the
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Midyear team concluded beginning in early 2016 that evidence

supporting a prosecution of former Secretary Clinton or her senior
aides was likely lacking.

This conclusion was based on the fact

that the Midyear team had not found evidence that former Secretary
Clinton, or her senior aides, knowingly transmitted classified
information on unclassified systems because, one, classified
information exchanged in unclassified emails was not clearly or
properly marked; and two, State Department staff introducing
classified information into emails made an effort to, quote, 'talk
around it,'" end quote.
Is this conclusion consistent with your own experience on the
case?
Mr. Pittard.

I want to -- I don't mean to be difficult, but

do you have a copy of the actual IG report that she could see for
context?
Mr. Sinton.

And if you could give a page reference, that

would be helpful.
Mr. Morgan.

Pardon me.

That's from page 163 of the IG

report.
Mr. Sinton.
Ms. Moyer.

Thank you.
Okay.

Could you repeat the question?

Sorry.

You don't have to reread the -BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

No, I won't.

Is the conclusion you just read in the IG

report consistent with your experience on the case?
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A

71

So the conclusion about the intent and about the State

Department talking around the issues, that I remember and is
consistent.

I don't remember talking about this as early as early

2016, but -- so I don't remember that part.
Q

But --

A

But the conclusion about the intent and, you know, why

we weren't seeing intent is consistent with my understanding.
Q

Okay.

And would you agree with the next sentence that

occurs in the IG report, which says, "The Midyear team continued
its investigation taking the investigative steps and looking for
evidence that could change their assessment"?
A

Oh, yeah.

Q

So you would agree with that statement?

A

Yes.

Q

Okay.

So kind of going back to some of the questions

raised in the previous round, I want to discuss some of the issues
regarding disagreements over kind of the use of compulsory process
versus, say, consent agreements in terms of obtaining evidence.
In the Clinton email investigation, did the investigative
team generally advocate for aggressively seeking and compelling
evidence?
A

Sure, yeah.

Q

Did you -- did Peter Strzok and Lisa Page advocate for

or against the use of compulsory process?
A

So Lisa was not a part of the investigative team and so
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72

I would not put -- she may have been involved in some discussions,
but I would not put her in the category of even making any sort of
investigative decisions.

Pete did argue for compulsory process at

times.
Q

Okay.

Do you know why that -- do you recall why that

was, generally speaking?
Mr. Pittard.

Is there a -- I mean, if you can answer

generally, but maybe it's hard to talk about why he -- it's hard
to talk about why he thought anything, period.
BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

Let me put it this way:

But he -- would you say that

Mr. Strzok was aggressive in trying to use compulsory process when
he believed it was necessary in order to investigate the case?
A

Yes, I believe so.

Q

Were there disagreements in when to use or not use

compulsory process?
A

Disagreements amongst whom?

Q

Between members of the Midyear team, between the FBI and

the line prosecutors or the Department of Justice?
A

I think more so between the FBI and the prosecutors at

Q

Okay.

DOJ.
Generally, did the FBI advocate for the use

of -- why did the FBI advocate for the use of compulsory process?
Mr. Pittard.
Mr. Morgan.

To the extent you know, and if you can -In your experience on the case.
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Mr. Pittard.

And it may be useful to talk about particular

circumstances, in that conceivably it's different in different
circumstances.
Ms. Moyer.

Yeah.

So that's a tough question, because there

were different -- there are different moments that these kinds of
questions came up over the course of the case.

So generally, I

think, as a big picture matter, people argue for process because
they believe they will get more information from compulsory
process.
BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

Okay.

So, generally, when there were disagreements

between the FBI and DOJ on how to seek evidence, what was DOJ's
position?

Do you recall?

Or were you familiar with their general

position based on your -A

It would depend -- I think it sort of depended

on -- like I said, there were numerous points throughout this case
in which this was a question.
Q

So let me ask this question then:

Do you think that

when there were disagreements, or when there were discussions,
were these -- these were based on the facts and discussing
investigative strategy, correct, or differing opinions in terms of
the appropriate investigative strategy?

Would you say that that's

correct?
A

So when there were disagreements between the FBI's team

and the DOJ about compulsory process versus consent, was that
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74

based on a difference in agreement -- or a difference of opinion
on investigative strategy?
Q

Yes.

A

Sort of.

sides.

Is that what you're asking?

I think that the angles were the same for both

I just think that the Department had a different opinion

about how to get to that point.

But so I don't want to say we had

a different viewpoint on investigative strategy, because I think
we did have an overall investigative strategy that the FBI team
and the Department agreed to, but just these decisions throughout.
Q

Okay.

Do you think that DOJ career prosecutors were

making any of these decisions -- I think you mentioned that
ultimately decisions rested with them -- based on their personal
political views, or based on any other improper considerations?
A

I had no indication of that at all.

Q

Did any of these discussions or disagreements on how to

obtain evidence affect the thoroughness of the investigation?
A

I don't believe so.

Q

In your experience, did any senior political leaders at

DOJ intervene in the decision to seek or not seek compulsory
process?
A

I was not involved in any discussions that would

indicate that.
Q

Okay.

So in your experience, Loretta Lynch didn't seek

to intervene regarding these discussions, in your experience?
A

Not to my knowledge.
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Q

What about Sally Yates?

A

Not to my knowledge.

Q

Matt Axelrod?

A

Not to my knowledge.

Q

John Carlin?

A

Not to my knowledge.

Q

In your experience, is it common to have disagreements

75

between FBI agents and DOJ prosecutors working on a case?
A

Yes.

Q

Is it common for the FBI to want to move more quickly or

aggressively and for the Department to ask for more evidence or to
take a more cautious approach?
A

Yeah.

Q

Based on your answers in this section, is it fair to say

that you believe the FBI was aggressive in suggesting the Clinton
email investigation make use of compulsory process?
A

Yeah.

That's not something I would have -- I would not

have characterized it that way.

I'm not sure I would have asked

that question, but yes.
Q

Okay.
BY MS. SHEN:

Q

So just so I'm clear, because I know that some of the

back and forth might have been a little bit confusing, you know,
there have been a series of allegations that I've heard, certainly
in person, that, you know, certain members of the FBI
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investigative team, or perhaps the DOJ investigative team, you

know, might have, you know, not been as aggressively investigating
Secretary Clinton for improper reasons or political bias,
essentially going easy on her, right.
And so I guess I'll just ask the blanket question:

Do you

have any reason to believe that any member of the MYE
investigative team chose not to aggressively pursue Secretary
Clinton's case based on improper political considerations?
A

Are you asking about the investigative team or the

prosecution team?
Q

Both.

A

The answer to both is no.

Q

Okay.

Thank you.

BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

So now I want to turn to questions regarding the editing

and drafting of Director Comey's July 5 statement.
A

Okay.

Q

There have been many allegations regarding the July 5,

2016 statement Director Comey drafted on the Clinton investigation
recommending not to prosecute Secretary Clinton, so I just want to
walk through in detail kind of what happened.
Do you know who drafted the statement initially?
A

It's my understanding Director Comey drafted it.

Q

And who held the authority to approve the final language

of the July 5, 2016 statement?
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A

Director Comey gave the statement, so he would have been

the ultimate approval.
Q

Did Peter Strzok or Lisa Page have the authority to

approve the final language of the July 5, 2016, statement
recommending not to prosecute Secretary Clinton?
A

Not that I'm aware of.

Q

Did you ever make edits or suggestions to the statement

with the purpose of helping Secretary Clinton or damaging the
Trump campaign?
A

No.

Q

To your knowledge, did anyone else?

A

No.

Mr. Somers.

Can the witness give a verbal response?

There

hasn't been one, at least not that I can hear.
Ms. Moyer.
Mr. Pittard.

Oh, I was, and the answer was no.

Ms. Moyer.

It's on.
Oh, yeah, it's on.

BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

Were members of the Midyear exam FBI team free to

express their concerns throughout the drafting process?

Did they

feel free to be able to express any opinions or concerns regarding
the statement?
Mr. Pittard.
Ms. Moyer.
statement.

To the extent you know.
So the investigative team did not review the

So the case agents and analysts did not review the
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statement, but -- so they did not have that opportunity.

Some

executives, I believe, reviewed the statement.
BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

Okay.

Including -- and you reviewed the statement as

well, correct?
A

I did, yes.

Q

And did you ever feel like you could not -- you weren't

free to express any concerns throughout the drafting process?
A

No.

Q

Do you recall any member of the team who reviewed the

statement expressing significant disagreements about the
statement's final wording?
A

No.

Q

Do you know why was the initial statement drafted before

the FBI officially closed the Clinton investigation in July 2016?
A

So I don't know why specifically.

it himself, so you'd have to ask him.

The Director drafted

We had had -- been having

some discussions about what happens when we come to an end to this
investigation.
Q

Do you believe that Director Comey acted improperly or

prematurely by drafting an initial statement before Secretary
Clinton's and others -- other interviews occurred?
A

No, I don't.

Q

Can you explain why is that?

A

I think we may have talked about this before, but as
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cases go on, you kind of get a sense of where they're going.

And

so to be prepared with, you know -- to be prepared if we decided
that -- if it was decided there wouldn't be a prosecution, that
made sense to me.

Of course, the whole time it was, you know,

barring any new information that we would have gathered that could
have changed the outcome.
Q

And to your last statement there then, if the FBI's

interviews of Secretary Clinton and others produced new evidence
that supported prosecuting Secretary Clinton, would the FBI have
ignored that evidence and stuck with the existing draft statement?
A

I don't believe so.

Q

So in other words, did the initial draft statements in

the spring of 2016 lock in the FBI's recommendation not to
prosecute regardless of any new evidence?
A

No.

Q

But the FBI did not actually -- kind of touching back on

our previous conversation -- but the FBI did not actually receive
new evidence in these interviews that supported prosecuting
Secretary Clinton; is that correct?
A

At the end of the day we did not find anything that

changed the opinion of that statement.
Q

I want to talk a little bit more in detail about the

editing process.

And I'm going to -- I'd like to introduce as

exhibit 3, I believe, H. Res. 907, which was introduced by
Republican Members of Congress on May 22, 2018, and it requests
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that the attorney general appoint a second special counsel to
investigate the Department of Justice and the FBI.
[Moyer Exhibit No. 3
Was marked for identification.]
BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

So I just want to direct your attention to page 4 and

the first clause.

And that clause begins, quote, "Whereas

Director Comey in the final draft of his statement, allowed FBI
Agent Peter Strzok to replace 'grossly negligent,' which is
legally punishable under Federal law, with 'extremely careless,'
which is not legally punishable under Federal law."

The inspector

general's report actually makes clear that the change in Director
Comey's statement was not Mr. Strzok's doing.

It was based on

legal discussions by you and other attorneys in your office.

Is

that also your understanding?
A

Yes.

Q

So FBI attorneys, not Mr. Strzok, would have made the

substantive decision to change "grossly negligent" to "extremely
careless."
A

Is that correct?

We would have made a recommendation.

The final decision

as to what changes to accept was Director Comey's.
Q

Okay.

And just to be clear, I know we touched on in the

previous round some discussions regarding the statute considered
during the case, but did you believe that Secretary Clinton's
conduct did not constitute gross negligence under 793(f)(1)?
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A

There was very little case law under 793(f)(1), and I

did not believe that Secretary Clinton's conduct was similar to
the very few instances in which I had seen that provision.
Q

Again, I believe this was touched on earlier, but is it

true that the gross negligence provision is considered by the
Justice Department to be potentially unconstitutionally vague?
A

So that is what I was told.

The Department -- you'd

have to ask the Department specifically about what they think of
that provision.
Q

Have you ever done any independent legal research?

A

I have reviewed -- yeah, I've done some legal research

on gross negligence.
Q

And what was -- and what was the result of that

research, would you -A

Like I said, there were very few cases on it.

Q

Okay.

Can you describe why you and others in the Office

of General Counsel believed Director Comey should not use the
phrase "grossly negligent," which is a phrase with a separate
legal meaning, if he was using it in a colloquial sense, you know,
not as a legal term of art?
Mr. Pittard.

I think you can speak to what you thought.

I'm

not sure you can speak to what anybody else thought.
Ms. Moyer.

Right.

So I -- my understanding was that the

Director was using the term "gross negligence" in more of a
colloquial way.

We had -- there had been discussions where I was
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82

present in which we discussed whether or not the facts supported a
prosecution of Secretary Clinton, and my understanding is that the
Director was not intending to say that the facts did support a
prosecution.
So I think that he used that more -- my understanding was
that he did not intend for that to have statutory significance,
and that is why I suggested we change that provision, that phrase.
BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

Did the edit of replacing "grossly negligent" with

"extremely careless" change the FBI's substantive legal
conclusions in any way?
A

No.

It was -- I think the intent, at least my intent,

was to make it more clear about what the decision was.
Q

Okay.

To your recollection, was the edit made because

of any inappropriate considerations, including trying to help
Hillary Clinton avoid prosecution?
A

No.

It was made more because I did not believe that the

conduct rose to the level of cases that would be prosecuted under
that provision.
Q

And did anyone else ultimately disagree with the

decision to omit the phrase "gross negligence" and instead use
"extremely careless"?
Mr. Pittard.
Ms. Moyer.
thought.

To the extent you're aware.
Yeah, I don't know what other individuals

The change was accepted eventually.
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BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

Did you ultimately agree with Director Comey's decision

to include criticisms of Secretary Clinton's uncharged conduct in
his statement?
A

I did not raise any objections at the time.

Looking

back on it, I -- I'm not sure I agreed with the -- I think it
caused more confusion than it needed to.
Q

The IG report concluded -- and this is on page 238 of

the IG report.

So I'm going to go ahead and read this paragraph

into the record, quote, "We found no evidence that Comey's public
statements announcing the FBI's decision to close the
investigation was a result of bias or an effort to influence the
election.

Instead, the documentary and testamentary evidence

reviewed by the OIG reflected that Comey's decision was a result
of his consideration of the evidence that the FBI had collected
during the course of the investigation, and his understanding of
the proof required to pursue prosecution under the relevant
statutes."
A

Okay.

Q

Is this conclusion consistent with your experience

during the case?
A

Yes.

Q

So bias or any effort to influence the election was not

part of the FBI's decision-making in any way?
A

Correct.
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Q

84

Do you have any reason to believe that Director Comey's

recommendation against prosecuting Hillary Clinton was influenced
by any improper considerations, including political bias?
A

No I don't have any reason to believe that.

Q

Was your opinion influenced by political bias?

A

No.

Q

Was your opinion based on the law and the facts?

A

Yes.

Mr. Morgan.
this round.

So I think that concludes our questioning for

Thank you very much.

Mr. Pittard.

Thank you.

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85

[1:00 p.m.]
BY MR. BAKER:
Q

The time now is 1:00, and we're back on the record.

Ms. Moyer, when we went through your chain of command
earlier, we discussed briefly that Lisa Page, in addition to being
an associate, work -- involving work-related matters, you also had
a social relationship with her.
A

Yes.

Q

What about other members in OGC that you answer to?

Were you in a social relationship with Trisha Anderson?
A

I had seen her outside of work but not as often.

Q

What about Jim Baker?

A

No.

Q

Outside of the OGC realm, what about Mr. McCabe?

A

Oh, no.

Q

Okay.

I think we'll go back to some of the Midyear Exam

questions shortly, but I want to just jump to one thing that is
really more contemporary than some of the other questions that
we'll ask.
Were you involved in any meetings where you heard firsthand,
or were you involved in any conversations with Ms. Page in a
social setting, where you learned that there had been discussions,
apparently at the Department of Justice, about the Deputy Attorney
General wearing a recorder or a transmitter, some type of -- my
terms -- body recorder, to record President Trump?
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A

I was not at any meetings that that was discussed, but

Lisa Page did mention it to me.
Q

And what were the circumstances around her discussing

this with you?
A

I believe we were commuting home and she brought it up.

Q

And what did she bring up?

A

I think -- my recollection is that we were kind of

discussing some of the -- how difficult some of the questions were
surrounding what was going on at the FBI at the time, and she
mentioned that it's difficult -- sort of, it's difficult for
everyone and kind of explained that as an example.
Q

So she had been at a meeting and had heard this

firsthand?

What was her basis of knowledge?

A

Yes, that's my understanding.

Q

And what else did she elaborate on?

A

I just remember that she said that the -- that it was

with the DAG, and that he was concerned, and that he mentioned
wearing a wire.
Q

She was concerned that he mentioned wearing a wire?

A

No, no, that -- that -- I was not at the meeting, so I

don't know how it came up.
Q

Sure, I understand.

I understand.

A

She mentioned that he seemed concerned and that he had

suggested wearing a wire.
Q

He seemed concerned about what?

What was your

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understanding of -A

I'm not sure.

Mr. Brebbia.

I'm sorry, can I just jump in?

BY MR. BREBBIA:
Q

According to Lisa Page, who discussed tape-recording the

President?
A

So what she told me was that the DAG brought it up.

Q

And was she present for the conversation?

A

I believe so, but I don't know that I asked

specifically.
Q

In response to the DAG bringing it up, what actions did

Lisa Page take?
A

I don't know what she did.

Q

Did she -- this is, I understand, all based on

discussion with you.

In her discussion with you, what did she say

to you about the DAG bringing up tape-recording the President?
A

Like I said, it was not a discussion where we were

talking about steps we would be taking.

It was more of a, can you

believe the world we're living in now.
Q

And may I ask, specifically, did she discuss whether

this was a serious request from the -- from the DAG -- the DAG
Rosenstein, just to be -- that's what we're talking about, right?
A

Oh, yes, I'm talking about Rosenstein.

Q

Was this a serious request to tape-record the President

from DAG Rosenstein?
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A

I don't know.

She did not say one way or the other.

Q

Did she say what Deputy -- what Director -- was he

Director at the time, Director McCabe?
A

He was Acting Director, yes.

Q

Did she say at the time what Acting Director Andy McCabe

said about tape -- about the DAG, Rosenstein, discussing
tape-recording the President?
A

Not that I remember.

Nothing that I remember, I guess.

She didn't say anything.
Q

So, can I just understand a little bit.

Can you flesh

out a little bit more the conversation that you had specifically
as it pertained to tape-recording the President?
A

Like I said, it's -- you know, I don't have -- I can't

remember it specifically.

It was a while ago.

She just said

that -- you know, we were talking about atmospherics and about
some of the difficult questions we were dealing with, and she
said, you know, that even the DAG has -- isn't sure what some of
the answers are, and said that he had suggested wearing a wire.
Q

Other than this one conversation with Lisa Page, did you

discuss, with anyone else, wearing a wire or tape-recording the
President -A

Oh, no.

Mr. Pittard.

You're talking about before all this became in

the press and -Mr. Brebbia.

Yes, yes, yes.
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Yes, at the time, around this time period with Acting McCabe,
and Lisa Page still at the FBI, and with DAG Rosenstein, did you
discuss with anyone else this idea of tape-recording or wearing a
wire to record the President?
Ms. Moyer.

No.

Mr. Breitenbach.

Although I would be interested if it's come

up after the press reports.
Mr. Pittard.

And you probably want to exclude from that

question conversations with counsel, conversations that would have
involved her counsel.
Mr. Breitenbach.

I think -- yes.

I mean, we're not getting

into any attorney/client privileged issues.

I think just the idea

of recording the President or putting a wire on someone to record
the President, has that come up at all in terms of your
discussions at the bureau?
Ms. Moyer.

No.

BY MR. BREBBIA:
Q

I am sorry, one final -- did you do any legal research

into the FBI's ability, policies, procedures, any research into
tape-recording the President?
A

No.

Q

Did the topic of the 25th Amendment arise -- arise in

any conversations you had with personnel at the FBI?
A

So I think I'm -- I heard at one point something about

the 25th Amendment, but I don't think it was in relation to this.
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BY MR. SOMERS:
Q

And it wasn't -- wasn't brought up during that

conversation -- the conversation where wiretapping or recording
the President was brought up with Lisa Page, did the 25th
Amendment come up during that conversation?
A

Not between her and I.

Q

Yeah, that's all I have.
BY MR. BREBBIA:

Q

Could you tell us what the circumstances were when the

25th Amendment was being discussed?
A

So, again, it's a vague recollection.

I can't even

remember exactly who -- who I talked to about it.

But someone

said they had heard that there was talk of the 25th Amendment and
people being -- like heard that there was talk of the 25th
Amendment and that there were votes for it, or something like
that.
Q

And -- and --

A

Like, I said, it's such a vague recollection, I

don't -- I don't know who it was, or any more specifics than that.
Mr. Somers.

Was it around the time -- probe just a little

bit further -- I know you just said you don't remember the
specifics -- around the time Director Comey was fired?
Ms. Moyer.

I don't think so.

I think it was after that.

BY MR. BAKER:
Q

When you say there were -- you recall somebody saying
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there were votes for it, did you take that to mean there were
Cabinet Members in favor of it, invoking it?

Or proceeding with

it?
A

That's what I took it to mean, but I -- you know, it

was -- it was kind of gossip, so it wouldn't have meant anything
to me, like I didn't know if it was true or -- or what.
Q

And then you said earlier, in response to the issue of a

wiretap, that Ms. Page said something that made you think
Mr. Rosenstein had concerns, and that's why he was willing to wear
the wire?

I guess I'm getting at concerns with the President's

behavior, not concerns over any other thing.
A
that.

I can't say that.
I don't know.

I don't -- I did not intend to imply

I think my impression was that

Mr. Rosenstein wasn't sure what to do next.

Like, wasn't

sure -- my impression was, it was, like, a question of the special
counsel and what -- what are the next steps.
the President specifically or his actions.

Not concerns about
Again, I can't say.

BY MR. SOMERS:
Q

You just said there was gossip -- I think that was your

word -- surrounding the 25th.

Just to be a little more specific,

did that gossip, or however you want to characterize it, did that
involve the DAG, or was it just -- not -- not involve.

I mean,

was he part of that story, hey, the DAG is talking about the 25th
Amendment?
A

I don't think -- I don't remember that.
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remember the DAG being a part of it.
Q

But it was -- there was serious discussions at the

Department -- I mean, I'm just trying to understand what the
gossip was about the 25th Amendment.
A

I apologize, I don't really remember the specifics.

it's hard.

So

I just remember hearing someone say they had heard

that there were a couple of votes on the Cabinet for, you know,
invoking the 25th Amendment.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

You mentioned that this happened during a commute back

home with Ms. Page?
A

The original conversation relating to the wiretap.

Q

Okay, did you end up engaging in conversation when she

told you this?

Was there any advice that she provided, Ms. Page,

when she first told you this -A

No.

Q

-- information?

A

No.

Q

No?

A

No.

Q

So it just was mentioned and then it dropped?

A

Yeah, I think it was just, again, more about sort of

gossip, atmospherics, sort of talking about, you know, the
significant issues that we're dealing with at the FBI at that
time.

So it wasn't about taking action.

It was just sort of

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discussing the atmosphere of what was going on.
Q

Did she indicate anybody else might have been in the

meeting when she first heard this?
A

The Deputy Director would have been there.

And I

believe at that -- I believe that there were staff members from
the DAG's office.
Q

Do you recall anyone who might have been there from the

DAG's office?

Was Tashina Gauhar this meeting?

A

I don't know if she was at this meeting.

Q

Is that -- is that one of the people that you would

consider might have been?
A

Yes.

Q

Anyone else?

A

I believe Scott Schools may have been there.

Q

When you say you believe, is this just a recollection of

yours, or is -A

Based on a second conversation I had with Lisa.

Q

That particular conversation on your commute?

A

No, not --

Q

This was a subsequent discussion?

A

A subsequent discussion about -- when the news hit about

this -- this issue -Q

Okay.

A

-- she and I had a subsequent discussion about it.

Q

Okay.

So this is after she has already left the FBI?
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A

Yes.

Q

Can you go into discussing what this subsequent

94

discussion with Ms. Page -A

Sure.

Q

-- concerned?

A

It was when the news hit about the wiretap and the

Department's position and what they were saying happened, and she
was indicating she did not believe that they were telling the
truth.
Q

"They" meaning?

A

The Department.

Q

The Department?

A

Uh-huh.

And the source that was quoted in the paper.

Mr. Baker.

Telling the truth about it being a joke?

Ms. Moyer.

Yes.

Mr. Breitenbach.

And who was the source quoted in the paper?

Ms. Moyer.

I don't know.

She thought it was Scott Schools.

Mr. Baker.

But for her to believe it was untrue and a joke,

is it fair to say that she took the matter seriously when she
first heard it?
Mr. Pittard.
Ms. Moyer.

To the extent you know.
Yeah, I don't know that -- I don't know what she

thought at the time, but she definitely -- yeah, I don't know what
she thought.
BY MR. BAKER:
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Q

95

But if she thought the public reporting from the

Department was a joke and not the truth, and they are saying it
was a joke, then would it be fair to believe that her belief was,
it was not a joke and it was to be taken seriously?
A

That's how I'd interpret that, but you'd have to talk to

Q

And you carpool with Ms. Page?

A

Occasionally she'd give me a ride home.

Q

Okay, but not a regular --

A

No.

Q

Okay.

her.

BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

Did she give you any impression as to her impressions

how Mr. McCabe took the discussion concerning recording the
President or the 25th Amendment?
A

No.

Q

Have you ever been involved in a case where --

A

Just to clarify?

Q

Sure.

A

She did not tell me that -- about the 25th Amendment

part, I don't think.
Q

Okay, thank you.

A

I mean, like I said, I don't remember.

Q

Thank you.

I think you had said that earlier, so I

apologize.
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A

There were definitely two different conversations.

I

don't remember who I talked to about the 25th Amendment.
Q

Okay.

Have you ever been involved in providing legal

guidance as -- concerning the body wire recording of a subject?
A

Yes.

Q

Can you go into a little bit of explaining the legal

parameters if the FBI decides to record someone?
A

The primary issue is the consensual recording and making

sure that there was consent on the part of one of the parties and
figuring out whether or not the State that you're recording in is
a one- or two-party-consent State.

So, because if you have the

person wearing the wire, they can consent, and if it's a two-party
State, you have to take additional act- -- we used to have to get
additional approvals to -- to do the recording.
Q

Okay, so barring the fact that the suggestion was that

DAG Rosenstein was going to record the President of the United
States, in a general circumstance, if you're recording somebody in
D.C., are you aware what's required legally?
A

I've actually --

Q

And secondly -- I am sorry.

And secondly, depending on

whether D.C. is a one-party or two-party State, would the FBI
follow the State or the locality rules concerning recording of the
subject?
A

So the FBI follows all the laws and rules required.

At

least I advise them to follow all the rules and the laws required.
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Q

Okay.

So you would --

A

I can't say for certain that they -- yeah.

Q

You would advise then that when there's a local or State

But --

rule concerning one-party or two-party requirements, you would
advise that the FBI follow that local rule?
A

The policy of the FBI used to be that if there was a

two-party-consent State, we would have to get otherwise illegal
activity to conduct a one-person -- one-party-consent recording.
Subsequently that has been revised by the Department and in
our -- in our DIOG -- the -- I don't remember the name of
it -- the Domestic -Mr. Baker.

Domestic Investigation Operations Guideline.

Ms. Moyer.

-- Investigation Operations Guide.

They have

changed that rule and we no longer need to get OIA for that
circumstance.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

OIA?

A

Otherwise illegal activity.

Q

Therefore, then --

A

Because of the -- because a fed- -- the Federalism.

Because we're doing it on the part of a Federal investigation.
Q

So then that would indicate you do not follow the State

rules as to whether -A

Right.

Q

-- it's a one-party or two-party State?
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A

But we follow the guidance and guidelines provided by

the Department and by our -- our DIOG on that, yes.
Q

And so if it is someone that is a source or an

undercover for the FBI that is doing the recording, then that
person doing the recording equates to the one-party consent -A

Yes.

Q

-- that's needed?

A

Usually, yeah.

Q

Okay, so going back --

A

Depends on where the recording is.

Q

But I thought you just said that it doesn't depend on

where the recording is.
A

No, like if the person is wearing the recorder, then,

yes, because they would be there for the conversations.

Then some

of the questions come up about where you can place a recorder.

is.

Q

Okay.

So if --

A

Sorry, I don't mean to make it too complicated.

Q

No, no, we're trying to figure out how complicated it

So if in the scenario that is mentioned by the DAG, that he

is wiring -- getting wired to go record the President, would a
court order be needed to do so?

Or would that fall within a

consensual recording because it's a Federal operation?
A

So, I did not look into this issue.

I don't -- I'm sure

there are other -- other things to think about with regard to
wearing a recording -- or wearing a wire at the White House and
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the President and all those other issues.

I didn't -- I didn't

research that.
Q

You're familiar with the Wiretap Act?

A

Yes.

Q

Are you familiar that oral communications require a

But I -- I'm familiar with it.

court order to obtain a wiretap on someone?
A

Yes, barring other exceptions, is my understanding of

the act.
Q

So if this situation does -- I'm trying to think of the

alternative.

If this situation that is presented by the DAG's

suggestion of going to put a wire on himself to record the
President, if it does not fall within the consensual recording
idea that we've discussed, then by extension, would it -- would it
fall within a court order?

Or otherwise known as a wiretap in

this case?
A
at all.
Q

You know, I didn't look -- I didn't look into this issue
Maybe there's other exceptions, I don't know.
Okay.
BY MR. BAKER:

Q

I'm curious to follow-up on some of Mr. Breitenbach's

questioning in our attempt to kind of understand this.

You had

indicated earlier, I think, that in a State or a jurisdiction that
would require two-party consent, you no longer had to go through
some of the hoops that you had to, because the Department had
given some more guidance on that?
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A

I think so.

100

I know our DIOG changed, and I think it's

in relation to Departmental guidance.
Q

I'm curious, are you familiar with something called

McDade?
A

I've heard of McDade, but I couldn't discuss it right

Q

So does that have anything to do with the original

now.

problem?

My understanding of McDade is that it required

Department attorneys to comply with the laws of the jurisdiction,
the State jurisdictions they were in, contrary to any issue of
Federalism, and where you might have normally been able to do a
one-party consent, if you were -- as a Federal operator, if you
were in a State that only allowed two-party consent, you had to
follow the two-party-consent rule.

That's not necessarily a part

of this as far as you know?
A

Not -- I don't know.

Q

There were hoops for two-party consent and the

Department worked them out?
A

Right.

We changed our DIOG, and our DIOG is approved by

the Department.
Q

Okay.

A

So I expect that -- I was not involved directly in those

changes.
Q

As a practical matter, if the decision was made by the

Deputy Attorney General to either on his own wear a wire, or he
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101

had the blessing of the Department, the FBI, whoever, where would
he get such a device?

It's my understanding they're not just

lying around in a supply closet, that they're very tightly
controlled.

You have to bring the legal process that authorizes

it to the custodian of such devices.

If he decided to go off on

his own and wear such a thing, or with a very limited number of
people knowing about it, where would he, as a practical matter,
get the physical hardware?
A

I don't know.

I would not know how to get one.

Q

And yet you deal with, at least on some level, giving

legal advice for that investigative technique, where it's properly
sought?
A

Right.

Q

But you wouldn't know where to get one, per se?

A

Correct.

Q

Okay.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:

Q

You're familiar with FISA and the probable cause

required to obtain a FISA order?
A

Yes.

Q

Are you aware that the probable cause to obtain a FISA

order is different than the probable cause to obtain a wiretap?
A

Yes.

Q

And can you explain what you -- your understanding on

the probable cause needed to obtain a wiretap?
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A

I believe that there needs to be probable cause

to -- that there's someone committing a crime.

And I apologize,

I'm usually dealing with FISA and not the Wiretap Act.
Q

Sure, I think that's accurate.

So if this hypothetical,

or potential reality, had eventually occurred where the DAG had
recorded the President, then if you were proceeding under a court
order, then -- and it's a criminal case, then they would have
obtained probable cause that the President was engaged in a crime?
A

You know, I don't know.

exception.

It sounds like -- anyway, I don't want to speculate

about this.
Q

Unless there's another

This is not something I've looked into at all.

Fair.

So hypothetically, if this were to have proceeded

as suggested, would probable cause that the President had engaged
in, or about to engage in a crime, been required to obtain a
wiretap?
Mr. Pittard.

If you know, or if you have a basis to say.

And, you know, I think you're acknowledging there are several
levels of sort of hypothetically embedded in your question
and -- which makes me terribly nervous.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

Well, let me -- let me make it simpler.

So in order to obtain a wiretap or a recording on someone
when you are not proceeding under the consensual requirement, you
need probable cause on that subject in order to obtain a wiretap?
A

Like I said, that's not my area of expertise, but that
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103

is my understanding of the Wiretap Act.
Q

And your understanding is that the probable cause would

be that someone has engaged, or is about to engage, in a crime?
A

Yes.

Q

Do you know in your discussion with Ms. Page, whether

she eventually took any actions concerning what she discussed with
you?
A

I'm not aware of her taking any action.

Q

Okay, thank you.
BY MR. SOMERS:

Q

Just to get back to that conversation with Lisa Page, so

the 25th Amendment did not come up during that conversation?
A

I don't -- no, I don't think so.

Q

Did the appointment of a special counsel come up during

that conversation?
A

I can't recall specifically.

Q

Do you know if --

A

It must -- yeah, I guess it did, because I knew that was

the nature of the conversation she was having at the DAG's office.
BY MR. BAKER:
Q

I guess for at least a little bit we'll go back to

Midyear.
A

Oh, gosh.

Q

I think -- I think you addressed this during the last

round with our colleagues, but I want to make sure the record's
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full regarding the press statement that Director Comey gave,
announcing that it was going to be closed, or there would be no
prosecution.

I think you said that you were involved in the

actual word change.
Mr. Pittard.

Could you elaborate on that?
And -- if you want to specify the word change,

I think I know what you're talking about, but -BY MR. BAKER:
Q

Yeah, I think it went from -- without pulling it

out -- he had "grossly negligent" -- or whoever drafted it, had
"grossly negligent" in it, which I think the reason for the change
was probably commonsense in that if you're not charging a statute
that uses that language, your press statement probably shouldn't
have the words that mirror the statute.

I think.

But I'd like

your opinion on that.
A

Yeah, so my understanding is the Director drafted the

statement, and I was involved in suggesting the change to
that -- in taking out that term, because that was -- that was,
even though it's not a -- I don't want to say never used, it's not
a never -- it's never used, but it's not usually used, that
provision of the statute that is part of the book, the statute on
the books.
Q

So I was involved in taking those words out.

And --

And you felt they needed to come out to not cause

confusion with words that were in the statute?
A

Correct.

And so it was redlined so -- it's not that I

officially changed the statement, but I made that recommendation.
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Q

105

You made the -- you made the suggestion based on your

knowledge of the statute?
A

Correct.

And we were in a group, but I was the one that

made the suggestion -- I believe I was the one that made that
suggestion specifically.
Q

Were you in any groups or meetings regarding the timing

of that announcement?
A

No.

Well, I might have -- I don't remember anything

specifically, but we may have discussed the timing in the meetings
with the executives.
Q

And I think we've heard -- I think it's in the IG

report -- that at the time when he started drafting that, even
though it was pretty early on, in the spring, I think the
consensus was that there had already been a determination made
that there had been no intent found, and that absent the
Secretary giving information against her interest during her
interview, that she would probably be the recipient of a
declination.
A

So I don't know that I'd characterize it as -- that we

had already made a determination.

I think that the -- the facts

in evidence at that time had not shown any information that led to
intent.

But I don't know specifically when the Director drafted

his statement.
Q

Okay.

So would it be fair to say that while every bit

of investigation that was still to come, there would be open minds
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to whatever evidence came from that, the information around that
time was trending that there had not been evidence of a crime?
A

Correct.

Q

Okay.

I think that's fair to say that.

So were you involved in meetings about the notice

to Congress that the investigation was being re-opened?
A

Yes.

Q

And what did you add, or what did you take from those

meetings?
A

I'm not exactly sure.

Q

What was your -- what was your contribution to those

meetings?

I'm guessing there was a discussion.

I'm fairly

certain there was a discussion at the high level, do we need to
notify Congress that we're re-opening this investigation.
A
that.

Yeah.

I don't remember saying anything specific about

The only thing I remember specifically addressing was at

the end when it was decided, there was a question of whether we
sent the letter, posted the letter to our website.

And I just

suggested that the letter is actually just supposed to go to
Congress, I believe.
Q

Okay.

A

And that suggestion was taken.

Q

Were there people that were against -- that took the

view there wasn't a need to notify Congress?
A

I think there was -- there were people on both sides of

that, yes.
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Q

And was this another -- an example of discussion and

debate where ultimately a consensus was reached where there would
be a notification to Congress?
A

Yes, I think people had stronger views not to notify

than -- than previously, not to make the statement in July.
ultimate decision was made by the Director.
Q

The

In both cases.

And would it be fair to say, based on what you either

knew during these meetings and his advocacy for notifying
Congress, or things you've learned afterwards, was his view that
he had an obligation to do that based on the fact he had
previously appeared before Congress and felt that he needed to
keep that dialogue open -A

So I --

Q

-- regarding this topic?

A

I'm sorry.

I've certainly seen him say that.

I don't

know if that was the only consideration.
Q

Okay.

Was there any consideration or a factor given on

his part for needing to notify Congress based on there being so
many leaks from the FBI, that it would leak to Congress, and then
he'd be in a worse position by them finding out about the
existence of the re-opening anyway, than if he just formally
notified them and let the leaks travel wherever they may?
A

I remember someone bringing up the fact that it's

possible that it would leak, not to Congress, but to the public.
Q

Okay.

But then Congress would learn about it?
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A

Well, everybody would learn about it, yeah.

Q

Sure, sure.

A

So to get out in front of that, I -BY MR. BREITENBACH:

Q

Going back to Mr. Baker's prior line of questioning

concerning the change -- the suggested change that you believe you
made, from "gross negligence" to "extremely careless," can you
explain how you came up with the term "extremely careless"?
A

I did not come up with that term.

the draft.

We were looking at

And the Director has a way of speaking and a way of

writing, Director Comey did, that I'm sure you've all heard -- he
had drafted it himself -- and when we were reviewing it, I
suggested that we -- we take out the words "gross negligence" and
then we just moved another section of that statement up, to say
"extremely careless."

I wish I had thought more about that before

keeping that -- keeping that wording in there.
Q

Well, knowing what you know now, can you discuss your

understanding about the difference between the two terms?
A

I think that they're very similar colloquially, like you

would use them interchangeably if you were just talking to people.
But the "gross negligence" has a more specific legal meaning in
this case, and so that's why we wanted to make sure it
wasn't -- wasn't used, but -Q

So should, back in 1917, when they were discussing the

eventual language that ended up in the statute, should they have
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landed on using "extremely careless"?

That would have been in

your mind equated to "grossly negligent"?
A

I think the term "extremely" -- I just don't think of

that -- because of my legal training, I think of "gross
negligence" as having legal meaning, but I don't think that the
rest of the world necessarily thinks of it that way.

So

"extremely careless" would not -- I would not suggest putting
"extremely careless" in the statute because I don't know that it
has any legal meaning.
Q

But for someone trained in the understanding of what

"grossly negligent" means, such as yourself, it equates in your
mind, to the idea of being extremely careless?
A

I think in my mind, it's a little bit more than that.

Like, it has more of a legal meaning, but -- this, I think, might
be why it's such a difficult section to -Q

What's that -- what is that more that you're

referencing?
A

I think -- and I think it's in the legislative history,

too, that it's almost -- there's almost intent there.

It's not

the same as just being extremely careless, but there's something
almost -- there's almost willfulness.
Q

Well, to that -- to that point, let me -- let me go to

the legislative history.
A

Okay.

Q

I'm going to introduce -- I'm not sure where we are on
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exhibits, but introduce an email that is from George Toscas at the
Department of Justice to Jim Rybicki, formerly Chief of Staff to
Director Comey, copying himself -- George Toscas.

And he is

passing along what seems to be legislative history, and it's
referencing the House debate on May 3rd, 1917.

Do you see that?

A

Okay, yeah.

Q

Are you -- have you ever seen this email?

A

No.

Q

Were you ever aware that a discussion, or at least the

actual legislative history, was passed to anyone in the FBI?
A

I was aware that OGC got a copy.

exactly when.
Q
client?

I don't remember

But I was not aware of this.

Did you ever discuss legislative history with your
So, I'm saying with anyone inside the FBI that you were

advising legally, or are you discussing the specifics as to the
legislative history that indicated to you that "grossly negligent"
was not going to be an appropriate standard to charge in this
case?
A

No.

Not that I remember.

Q

Are you aware whether any attorney inside the FBI had

done any type of legal analysis on the legislative history?
A

I don't know what you mean by "legal analysis," but --

Q

Was any attorney inside the FBI aware of the legislative

history concerning the espionage act?
A

I know I -COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

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Q

And specifically the "gross negligence" portion.

A

I know I've looked at it.

looked at it.

I don't remember when I

But analysis -- I've never done any sort of

write-up of it.
Q

Okay, I'm going to introduce another exhibit.

This is

an exhibit that was compiled by our law clerk, but it's
essentially write-ups of the legislative history from 1917.
A

Okay.

Q

So, what I want to point out here is that there is

indication in the legislative history concerning the inclusion of
"gross negligence" in the chapter, in the espionage chapter.
There are some highlighted provisions, very vaguely highlighted,
or faintly highlighted, that I just want to go through real quick.
There is a Mr. Nelson -- this is on the middle of the first
page -- you said, that is intended to meet such a case as occurred
within a year or two at San Francisco.

A Naval officer who was

entrusted with our Naval Code Book, through his negligence, lost
it, laid it aside.

The result was that the code book fell into

the hands of another government, and our government has been
propelled to prepare a new code.
Mr. Cummins' responds, I've been told that that was the
instance which suggested this provision, but because an officer in
the Navy lost a code book, which fell into the hands of another
government, are we to punish every officer, or clerk or employee,
who may have lost some writing or note?
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112

So that seems to me to indicate that there is some
back-and-forth on whether to include "gross negligence" in the
chapter of the Espionage Act.
Mr. Pittard.

Would you agree with me?

I don't know if you've ever seen this before,

but maybe you should -- before answering any questions about it,
maybe you should -Ms. Moyer.
Mr. Pittard.

Read the whole thing?
-- take a minute to read it, yeah.

BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

So Ms. Moyer, I don't think you have to read the entire

first page, but just in terms of my question, I think -- I think
we see from this discussion that there is a back-and-forth on the
inclusion of "gross negligence" in the chapter, eventual inclusion
of "gross negligence" in the law?
A

Yes.

Q

If you turn to the second page of the exhibit,

Mr. Cummins, at the top, says, but suppose no one is killed,
Mr. Sutherland responds, it is not because he is willed that the
thing shall be done, but because he has been grossly negligent
about it.
Following in the next paragraph with Mr. Cummins, who was, by
the way, opposed in this discussion of including "gross
negligence," he says, I have no objection to making gross
negligence an offense.

I assume that there are times when gross

negligence ought to be punished with death.
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So I think just -- and there's additional discussions further
on in the exhibit about gross negligence, and pretty significant
discussion about gross negligence.

So the question for you is,

were you aware of this legislative history when advising on the
decision whether to change "gross negligence" to "extremely
careless"?
Mr. Pittard.

And, again, you haven't been given a chance to

read all of this.
Mr. Breitenbach.
Mr. Pittard.

Counselor, I think -- sorry.

Maybe -- if the question is, were you aware of

legislative history about the "gross negligence" provision at any
particular time, that seems like something she could answer, to
the extent she remembers.
But if it's to opine on particular legislative history that
we're not letting her read right now, and we don't know that she's
ever read before, and, you know, I presume this was, like, part of
the legislative history and not all of it, and I guess that makes
me a little bit uncomfortable.
Mr. Breitenbach.

I understand.

I think -- let me rephrase

the question then.
Mr. Pittard.

All right.

BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

In your time advising on this particular case, providing

legal guidance on this particular case, did you have the
opportunity to read through this particular legislative history,
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or legislative history concerning the Espionage Act?
A

During my time with Midyear?

Q

Correct.

A

I don't remember.

Q

I think you -- I think you previously testified that you

I don't remember when I reviewed it.

had reviewed the legislative history.
A

I have.

Q

Okay.

But I don't remember what the timing was.
Are you aware, whether you have read the

legislative history that we've just gone through?
A

It seems familiar, but I don't -- didn't have it

memorized.
Q

Are you aware whether any other attorneys may have read

through the legislative history in providing guidance on the
change from "gross negligence" to "extreme carelessness"?
Mr. Pittard.

In the context of the Midyear investigation?

Mr. Breitenbach.
Ms. Moyer.

Correct.

I don't know what the other attorneys have

reviewed.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

Let's by extension, move on to the search warrants that

were obtained in the Midyear Exam.
A

Uh-huh.

Q

We have two search warrants that I'll give you as

exhibits as well.

I'll give you a second to familiarize yourself

with the general document.
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Are you familiar with these documents?
Mr. Pittard.

If you can give her just another minute to --

Mr. Breitenbach.
Ms. Moyer.

Sure.

I don't remember ever seeing the one to Google.

BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

And which one is that?

A

It's the one from July 4th -- or from June 20th, 2016.

Q

Okay.

A

Yes.

Q

Can you explain what the first search warrant is

How about the first one?

attempting to authorize for seizure?
A

This was related to the server.

Q

What server is that?

A

I believe it's the -- I'd have to read it.

Q

Would this have been a server related to

Secretary Clinton?
A

Yes.

Q

Okay.

So if we look to Page 3 of that particular search

warrant, which I misspoke earlier -- it wasn't seeking to
authorize -- it did authorize the seizure of, and the search of,
that particular server.

On Page 3 of that search warrant, No. 6,

and I'll just read it, under 18 USC 793F, quote -- and it just
proceeds to state the entirety of that particular statute.
A

Uh-huh.

Q

In prior testimony today, you had indicated, in so many
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116

words, that you were told by the Department of Justice that 793
was unconstitutionally vague.
A

No, I was told that 793F was -- that that they had

Constitutional concerns about 793F.
Q

Okay.

Did you -- did you ever approve this particular

search warrant?
A

I don't approve search warrants.

Q

Did you ever provide legal guidance as to this search

warrant?
A

We definitely talked about the search warrant and

reviewed it, yeah.
Q

You were aware of the search warrant?

A

Uh-huh, yes.

Q

Do you recall reading in the search warrant the

predication that is in the search warrant for obtaining this
particular server?
A

I did not get a chance to re-read the predication today,

but I had read it before, yes.
Q

So if you are using 793F as predication to obtain the

particular server, you had indicated that you were told by the
Department of Justice that there were some Constitutional
concerns.
Did you take into consideration the Constitutional concerns
with regard to 793F when authorizing -- I am sorry, I know you
don't approve -- when providing legal guidance on the predication
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in this particular search warrant?
A

I don't remember bringing that up as an issue.

Q

Do you know why you wouldn't have been bringing up the

Department of Justice guidance that 793F may have been
unconstitutionally vague?
A

Well, they didn't provide any specific -- I've never

been given any specific opinion by the Department that it was
unconstitutional.
And secondly, this is the standard, statutory language in a
search warrant, and it includes multiple provisions for which
there's -- may be probable cause that we -- that -Q

But 793F is one of those multiple provisions?

A

Right.

Q

Sure.

But it also includes 793F2.
So, in reviewing this, are you concerned at all

that there was a statute that you had been told was
unconstitutionally vague being used as predication to obtain the
very server that was under investigation by the FBI?
A
vague.

First, I was not told that it was unconstitutionally
I was told that the Department has Constitutional

concerns.

So I don't know if it's vagueness over --

Q

Who were you told that by?

A

I don't remember.

case, previously.

It was in relation to a different

So it didn't raise any concerns when I saw it

in this search warrant.

There are other provisions as well that

we could rely on.
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Q

Knowing what you know now concerning -- or did you know

at the time, do you recall -- and this is dated -- date of issue
was August of 2015.
A

Uh-huh.

Q

Did you know at the time -- you had mentioned that you

learned that there were Departmental concerns concerning the
constitutionality of "gross negligence."

Did you know at the time

that this was issued about those concerns?
A

Like I said, it was about a previous case.

So, yes, I

did know that.
Mr. Pittard.

I'll just say that I think there's a little bit

of conflating in the back-and-forth of the apparent DOJ
constitutional concern being with 793F versus with 793F1,
which -- and my understanding is, their concern was with F1, the
"gross negligence" provision, which was part of your questions.
Though sometimes I think the questions referred to 793F more
broadly, so just to try to clarify that point.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

Well, let's go to 793F2 then, which pertains to

knowledge.
A

Uh-huh.

Q

Did you look at that particular provision in

recommending against filing charges on Secretary Clinton?
A

I don't recall specifically.

statute by statute.

Like I said, we didn't go

But I do remember reading the Espionage Act
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before making any recommendations.
Q

So with regard to knowledge and gross negligence and

intent, did you ever -- were you ever aware whether any of
Secretary Clinton's emails were accessed by a foreign actor?
A

I don't know anything that would indicate that they

Q

If they had been, was that a component in the FBI's

were.

review of whether Secretary Clinton had any scienter?

Whether

it's knowledge, whether it's intent, or, at the end of the day
whether there was gross negligence, the fact that some of her
emails were accessed by a foreign actor, was that a vector in the
FBI's decision?
A

It's hard to say, because I don't think we had any

evidence that they were.

So we didn't consider it specifically as

if they were.
Q

If you did have evidence, would that have, in any way,

affected your advice concerning steps or even the eventual
decision on the Clinton investigation?
A

So, based on my review of the case law, relating to 793

F1, that may have been something I would have looked at a little
harder, but I don't think if changes my overall -- I still don't
think we would have gotten there on 793 F1.

But it would have

certainly been another factor to consider.
Q

Would it have been a factor elsewhere within the

espionage section or elsewhere within your understanding of the
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mishandling statutes?
Mr. Pittard.

Again --

Mr. Breitenbach.
Mr. Pittard.

Or the unauthorized disclosure statute?

The hypothetical nature of it, again, makes me

nervous in that -- right?
Mr. Breitenbach.

It's like if --

Well, let me make it less hypothetical.

I'm going to introduce another exhibit here.

And this is a

letter -- I'll give you some time to look at it, but in
particular, there's a highlighted section on the second page.
This is an email from Mr. Priestap to Mr. Strzok, but the one
that I want to focus on is an email sent earlier from Mr. Strzok
to Mr. Rybicki, copying Mr. McCabe, Mr. Priestap, Mr. Moffa, and
then a redacted individual from OGC.
Firstly, do you know whether you are the redacted individual
from OGC?
A

I don't know.

Q

Okay.

This doesn't look familiar to me.

If you turn to the second page on No. 4 -- and

I'll read it out loud -- the statement that, quote, we assess it
is reasonably likely that hostile actors gained access to
Secretary Clinton's private email account is too strong.

It is

more accurate to say, we know foreign actors obtained access to
some of her emails, including at least one secret one, via
compromises of the private email accounts of some of her staffers.
Again, this is an email from Pete Strzok to other individuals
inside the FBI, it appears mostly management team, including an
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OGCer and Mr. Moffa.

Seeing this, is this the first time that you

have heard that foreign actors obtained access to Hillary
Clinton's emails?
A

So I think you're conflating two things.

My

understanding is that foreign actors got access to emails from
some of her staffers, not access to the private email server.
That's not what this says.
Q

Okay.

So, were you aware whether Hillary Clinton's

emails, through some avenue, were obtained by foreign actors?
Mr. Pittard.

What do you mean by "Hillary Clinton emails"?

BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

Well, just going -- I'm just going to the wording of

this email.

It says, it is more accurate to say we know foreign

actors obtained access to some of her emails including at least
one secret one.
To me, this appears to be indication that at least Mr. Strzok
knows, and is informing the individuals on this email chain, that
Mrs. Clinton's emails were obtained and accessed by a foreign
actor, including a class -- at least, he says.
least one secret one.

Excuse me.

At

And "secret" is capitalized there, so I

presume that he is referencing something that is classified.
So, again, were you aware, or do you know whether others
beyond this email chain were aware, whether Mrs. Clinton's emails
were, in fact, obtained and accessed by a foreign actor?
A

So I don't know what others beyond this email chain
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knew.

I was aware that there were other hacks of staffers' email

addresses.

I don't know to what extent that included emails to or

from Secretary Clinton.
Q

Seeing this now, would you agree with me that the FBI

had knowledge that Secretary Clinton's emails were, in fact,
accessed by a foreign actor, including classified emails?
A

I wouldn't go that far on this, because I don't know

exactly what emails she -- which of her emails they had access to.
Q

Does it --

A

Make a difference because I --

Q

I'm just wondering --

A

-- because often the emails in which she was -- the part

that she was a party to, had very little information in them.
Q

I'm not trying to parse words here.

A

Okay.

Q

I'm just trying to look at what this particular email

states, which seems to indicate that her emails, at least one
secret one, was, in fact, obtained or accessed.

I think the word

that's used here is "obtained access" -- to some of her emails.
So we presume they're talking about Secretary Clinton here.
A

Right.

I think that that's what this email says, yeah.

Q

So seeing this in the moment, I'm not asking you to go

back in time and try to determine now whether seeing this changes
your mind.

But if you had seen this at that moment before a

decision was finally made by the FBI, would that have been a
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vector in your decision as to whether the seriousness of

Secretary Clinton's handling of classified information might have
been worthy of an additional look?
A

I actually don't think so.

Because like I said, I don't

think this -- this is referring to her email server, or classified
information.

I mean, I can't say what emails they're talking

about here.
Q

Okay.

You had not, previous to seeing this document,

known that Secretary Clinton's emails were, in fact, accessed by a
foreign actor, including her classified -- at least one classified
email?
A

I don't --

Q

Correct?

A

I knew that some of the email accounts, private email

accounts of her staffers had been accessed.

I did not remember

that there were any emails with her email address on them.
Q

That's a big thing not to remember.

So I'm just

wondering, is it, you don't remember because you never saw this or
heard about whether Secretary Clinton's emails had, in fact, been
accessed by a foreign actor?
A

So, no, I -- I just -- I don't remember.

Like, I'm -- I

don't think it is actually that significant because of the way
that the emails came to Secretary Clinton.
Mr. Pittard.
sent.

It strikes me, this is an email that somebody

It wasn't Ms. Moyer, that she doesn't remember receiving,
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and it sounds like we don't have any reason to think she did
receive it.

And so asking her to opine or speculate on what

somebody meant when they wrote this, it seems to me, the right
person to ask is whoever wrote it.

And they can say what they

meant by it and whatnot, but I don't know but -- she just doesn't
know.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

Do you -- do you know how Secretary Clinton's emails

were accessed by a foreign actor?
A

Like I said, I believe that these were hacks of

individuals that worked for her.
Q

Do you know whether the FBI investigated those

particular individuals whose accounts were hacked?
A

I don't think so.

Q

So this is classified information that's being hacked by

a foreign party, and you -A

I don't --

Q

-- yourself, are not aware of whether or not the FBI

investigated that?
A

Right.

Well, you're -- I don't know -- I did not

remember that there was classified information on those emails
from the staffers.

I'm basing that on this email that you're

presenting to me.
Q

Does it surprise you, after having concluded the

investigation, whatever avenue Mrs. Clinton's emails were obtained
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through, that, in fact, her classified emails were obtained by a
foreign actor?
A

I did not remember that, so -- yeah, I didn't remember

that -- that.
Q

Okay.

Let me just go into one more avenue.

Were you

involved at all in the culling -- in -- I'm sorry -- in the
discussions concerning the culling of the -- Secretary Clinton's
emails by her staff?
A

I was not involved in discussions about culling.

Q

Are you aware of the discussions concerning the culling

of Secretary Clinton's laptop to determine whether there was -- to
differentiate, according to the staffers doing the culling,
between official emails that she might have sent during her time
as Secretary of State and personal emails?
A

So I was not involved in any discussions about how they

would do the culling.

I was involved in discussions about our

ability to get information about their culling process.
Q

Can you go into some of that, those discussions?

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[1:57 p.m.]
BY MR. BREITENBACH:
A

I do have particular areas of concern.

Q

What was the debate inside the FBI concerning the

culling of Secretary Clinton's laptops?
Mr. Pittard.

If there was a debate.

Mr. Breitenbach.
Ms. Moyer.

If there was a debate, thank you.

There wasn't a debate.

The FBI believed, and the

investigators believed, that they needed to see the laptops that
were used for Secretary Clinton's attorneys to sort and cull the
emails, and they believed they had to have access to questioning
Secretary Clinton's attorneys about it.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

And who made the decision to permit Secretary Clinton's

staff to cull the laptops, rather than obtaining through those
laptops through lawful process, like a search warrant?
A

I think the laptops had been culled before -- or the

emails had been culled into two piles before we had the
investigation.
Q

Oh, okay.

So this was even before you were even aware

of the investigation -A

-- were made by Secretary Clinton and her attorneys, and

I have no knowledge of how those decisions were made.
Q

Okay.

A

I'm sure that the investigators asked some questions,
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but I don't have any -Q

Are you aware what laptops -- the brand name of the

laptops that were used to perform this culling?
A

I knew it at one point but I don't remember.

Q

If I told you it was Lenovo, does that -- do you recall

that as the brand of the laptops used to perform the culling?
A

That sounds familiar.

Q

Okay.

I want to introduce another exhibit.

And this is

an article from June 6th entitled Facebook and Lenovo from The
Washington Times.
Mr. Baker.

Does that brand call into any concerns?

Ms. Moyer.

I have a vague recollection that there was a

security warning about it.
Mr. Breitenbach.

You know what, I think we're going to have

to start off on this next round because we are out of time.
[Recess.]
Ms. Hariharan.

Okay.

We're back on the record.

It is 2:17.
BY MS. HARIHARAN:
Q

So I just wanted to ask a couple questions before I turn

it back over to my colleagues.
A

Okay.

Q

With regards to the discussion on the DAG --

A

Yes.

Q

-- and wearing a wire.

So I just want to be clear, up

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were not in the room for this alleged discussion the DAG may have
had?
A

Correct.

Q

And you conducted no follow-up research on the matter?

A

Correct.

Q

And you were not asked to conduct any follow-up?

A

Correct.

Q

And to the best of your knowledge, the FBI did not take

any steps to record the President?
A

To the best of my knowledge, correct.

Q

And then so you were not under the impression at the

time that the FBI took the DAG's alleged statement regarding
recording the President seriously?
Mr. Pittard.

You say the --

Ms. Hariharan.

Sorry.

BY MS. HARIHARAN:
Q

At the time, were you under the impression that the FBI

was taking that statement by the DAG to record the President?
the FBI taking that seriously?
Mr. Pittard.

Was

Was a serious request?

I guess my concern there would be asking her to

opine on what the FBI was or wasn't doing.

She can speak,

obviously, to what she knows and -Ms. Hariharan.
Ms. Moyer.

Yeah, please.

I was unaware of any steps that were taken as if

that was direction.
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BY MS. HARIHARAN:
Q

If steps -- if the FBI was asked, would that have gone

through your office?
A

I don't know.

Q

You don't know.

A

It's an unusual request.

Ms. Hariharan.

Okay.

All right.

BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

So returning to a couple of the questions raised by our

colleagues in the previous round.

You were kind of asked to give

answers on couple of hypothetical situations based on legal
research conducted by the majority, not legal research that you
conducted, that you were asked questions about emails that you
were not privy to at the time.
And in the previous -- sorry -- in the previous minority
round, which I think you broadly agreed with the decision Director
Comey made to decline to prosecute Secretary Clinton.

Is that

correct?
A

I agreed with his recommendation.

Q

His recommendation -- pardon me.

A

Yes.

Q

Recommendation, yes.

Not to -- is there anything that

you discussed in the previous round change that assessment?
A

No.

Q

Are you aware of any direct evidence that Secretary
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Clinton's server -- I believe there's a discussion about staffers'
email account -- but Secretary Clinton's server was accessed by a
foreign power?
A

I'm unaware of any information about that.

Q

I want to turn to some -- pardon me -- I want to turn to

a couple questions about morale at the FBI and the Department of
Justice.
I'm sure you're aware there have been a litany of attacks
from the highest levels of the government accusing the FBI and the
Department of Justice of conducting investigations driven by
political bias instead of just the facts and the rule of law.
Would you say that's correct?

Are you aware of some of these

attacks?
A

I've seen some newspaper articles, et cetera.

Q

During your tenure at the FBI and DOJ, have you been

aware of any FBI investigation motivated by political bias?
A

No.

Q

During your time at the FBI and DOJ are you aware of any

Justice Department's investigations motivated by political bias?
A

I'm unaware of anything like that.

Q

Returning to House Resolution 907.

earlier.

We discussed that

I don't know if you still have your copy.

We discussed that during our earlier round.

That resolution

alleged, and I quote, "Whereas, there's an urgent need for the
appointment of a second special counsel in light of the evidence
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131

that raises critical concerns about decisions, activities, and
inherent bias displayed at the highest levels of Department of
Justice and Federal Bureau of Investigation regarding FISA abuse,
how and why the Hillary Clinton email probe ended, and how and why
the Donald Trump-Russia probe began."
Are you aware of any inherent bias at the highest levels of
DOJ and FBI regarding FISA abuse?
A

No.

Q

Is there any evidence of inherent bias or are you aware

of any evidence of inherent bias displayed at the highest levels
of the DOJ and the FBI regarding how and why the Hillary Clinton
email probe ended?
A

No.

Q

Is there -- are you aware of any evidence of inherent

bias displayed at the highest levels of DOJ and FBI against Donald
Trump as part of the Trump-Russia probe?
A

No.

Q

Are you aware of any actions ever taken to damage the

Trump campaign at the highest levels of the Department of Justice
or the FBI?
A

No.

Q

Are you aware of any actions ever taken to personally

target Donald Trump at the highest levels of the Department of
Justice or the FBI?
A

No.
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

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Q

132

Is there any evidence that any -- or are you aware of

any evidence that any FBI or Department of Justice official took
any actions biased in favor of Secretary Clinton or biased against
President Trump?
A

No.

Q

Are you aware of any evidence -- are you aware of any

evidence that Director Comey took any actions biased in favor of
Director Clinton or biased against President Trump?
A

No.

Q

Mr. McCabe?

A

No.

Q

Ms. Page?

A

No.

Q

How about Attorney General Lynch?

A

No.

Q

Sally Yates?

A

No.

Q

Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein?

A

No.

Q

How about Special Counsel Robert Mueller?

A

No.

Q

Are you aware of any evidence that President Obama

ordered any investigative activity that was biased in favor of
Secretary Clinton or biased against President Trump?
A

No.
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Mr. Wellons.

Sorry, I remind the witness to speak up.

We're

having a little trouble hearing.
Ms. Moyer.

Oh sorry.

No.

That was the answer.

I mean the answer was no before the question, not to you.
BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

Are you aware of any evidence that President Obama

ordered a wiretap of Donald Trump or the Trump campaign?
A

No.

Q

Are you aware of any conspiracy against Donald Trump or

the Trump campaign involving anyone from the FBI or the Department
of Justice or President Obama?
A

No.

Q

So many of us have been troubled by the escalating

attacks against the Department of Justice and the FBI, the attacks
against the independence of institutions, the integrity of its
employees or their employees and the legitimacy of DOJ and FBI
investigations.
And so I want to ask you about some of these statements just
to get your reaction.

On December 3rd, 2017, the President

tweeted "After years of Comey with the phony and dishonest Clinton
investigation and more, running the FBI, its reputation is in
tatters, worst in history.

But fear not, we will bring it back to

greatness."
Do you agree with the President's statement that the FBI's
reputation is in, quote, "tatters," and is in, quote, "the worst
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in history"?
A

I don't know what the President means by that.

I did

not feel like the FBI was in tatters.
Q

Do you agree with the President's characterization that

the Clinton investigation was quote, "phony and dishonest"?
A
tweets.
Q

Again, I don't know what the President means in his
I did not think that the investigation was phony.
In your opinion, what kind of impact do statements like

these have on the morale of rank and file of FBI agents?
A

It's hard for me to say about the morale generally.

I

can't opine about that.
Q
bit.

Okay.

I want to turn now -- switching gears a little

I want to turn now to another matter involving you

personally.
At a public hearing held on June 19, 2018, by the Committee
on the Judiciary and the Committee on Oversight and Government
Reform entitled "Oversight of the FBI and DOJ Actions in Advance
of the 2016 Election."

And just to be clear, this is the hearing

at which Inspector General Horowitz appeared to discuss the
inspector general's report -A

Okay.

Q

-- of the Clinton email investigation.

Representative Meadows identified you by name.
Mr. Morgan.

And I want to introduce the following documents.

And I believe we're on exhibit 10.

I don't think we really marked

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135

some of the other items that were introduced.
Mr. Pittard.

No, I don't think they have been.

BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

This an article from The New York Post, and it's

entitled "Sally Moyer, not agent 5 in IG report on FBI."
Do you want to take a moment just to read it briefly?
A

Yes.

Mr. Sinton.

I'm sorry, what's this from?

Mr. Morgan.

That's a New York Post article.

BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

So following Representative Meadows' identification of

you and as alluded to in the article, dozens of media outlets,
quote, unquote, falsely identified you as the other person
referred to as agent 5 in that same report -- the IG report.
"Agent 5 was cited in the IG report for exchanging several
politically charged text messages with the person referred to as
Agent 1.

The IG report noted that these two Midyear Exam agents

were not later assigned to the Russia investigation and were in a
personal relationship at the time and are now married."
My question to you is are you the person referred to as Agent
5 in the IG report?
A

No, I'm not.

Q

Were you reprimanded or further investigated for any

text messages reviewed by the inspector general as part of this
report?
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Mr. Pittard.

We're not going to take about -- we're not

going to talk about ongoing personnel actions or potential ones.
There have been some in the media that -- and honestly, some of
them involve people that Ms. Moyer works with, and so questions
about the underlying, you know, facts and things that went on
during the Midyear investigation, obviously, we're happy to
address those, but not personnel actions.
BY MS. SHEN:
Q

Just to be clear, you just said that you weren't the

person referred to as Agent 5 in the IG report, correct?
A

That's correct.

Q

And I believe the article indicates that you were, in

fact, FBI attorney 1 in the IG report, is that accurate?
A

Yes, that's true.

Q

Okay.

So to the extent that the IG report contained,

you know, bias text messages from Agent 5, none of those text
messages would have been yours?
A

Correct.

Q

Okay.

Thank you.

BY MR. MORGAN:
Q

So I guess my next question is what was the impact on

your personal life from having been personally identified by name
in this public hearing?
A
named.

Well, it was pretty upsetting.

I didn't expect to be

And then there were reporters outside my door shortly
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thereafter.
Q

So there were reporters, like paparazzi, I suppose you

could say, or reporters who were camped out outside your home.

Is

that correct?
A

I don't, I don't know if they're -- what paparazzi is,

but there were reporters, and they apparently took pictures of me
a couple of days and published them.
Q

And how did that make you feel and what was the

emotional impact of that?
A

I was upset about that, I will say.

I did not expect

that to happen.
Q

Did it affect kind of any of your relationships with

loved ones or your personal life in that regard or your family?
A

Q

Did this cause like any tumult in your life or?

A

After we were able to straighten it out, it died down.
BY MS. SHEN:

Q

Have you seen many of the comments made about you in the

press since then as, you know, Agent 5?

Essentially, were you

able -- did you read all those things on the Internet?
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A

No, I tried to avoid that.

Q

You tried to avoid that.

Did you ever receive any

threats related to that incident?
A

I did receive one threat, threatening email on my work

email.
Q

And what did that threat entail?

A

What did it do or what did it --

Q

What was the threat?

A

You know, it was -- I can't remember exactly.

just one line.

It was

I think he used the C word, so I tried to, again,

not pay attention to it.
Q

Okay.

Thank you.

Did you ever receive an apology for being misidentified?
A

Not that I'm aware of.

Q

Okay.

Ms. Shen.

Thank you.
Okay.

I think we're just going to end our round

early then.
Ms. Moyer.
Ms. Shen.

Thank you.

[Recess.]
Mr. Breitenbach.
the record here.

Okay.

I think we're going to go back on

It's 2:42 P.M.

BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

Okay.

Ms. Moyer, I think in the prior round of ours, we

ended in bringing up this article from The Washington Times
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entitled FBI and Lenovo dated June 6, 2018.

And I believe I

heard, very faintly at the very end, from a question from my
colleague, Mr. Baker, when he asked whether you were aware of any
concerns or counterintelligence concerns concerning Lenovo, you
answered yes.
A

Is that accurate?

I think I've seen a security bulletin or something on

Lenovo.
Q

Can you describe the security bulletin?

A

No.

I mean, I don't know anything more than that.

I

just remember that Lenovo was a potential security risk.
Q

Security risk for what, in your understanding?

A

That we shouldn't be using Lenovo products.

Q

Okay.

I'll go to the second page of that article where

it states, and I'll read it, "Lenovo equipment in the past has
been detected by U.S. intelligence agencies engaged in 'beaconing'
covert communication with remote users as part of a cyber spying
operation."
And then the article goes on to state, "in 2014" -Mr. Pittard.

I'm sorry, we were just having trouble finding

it.
Mr. Breitenbach.

Sure.

BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

And then it goes on on the third page --

A

Can you --

Mr. Pittard.

Yeah, give us just a minute, sorry.
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Ms. Moyer.

140

Oh, here we go.

BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

And then if you turn the page, on the third paragraph,

full paragraph, that begins "In 2014."
"In 2014, the Navy was forced to replace IBM servers in all
Aegis Battle Management equipped warships after Lenovo purchased
IBMs blade center line of servers.

The Navy was concerned that

China could hack its most advance warships through the servers in
wartime."
And then the next paragraph states, "The Department of
Homeland Security also warned that Lenovo computers built since
2014 come loaded with adware called Superfish that could allow
hackers to thwart encrypted security controls."
So in the last round of questioning, we discussed the use of
Lenovo computers for the culling, the initial culling by Secretary
Clinton's staff of her emails.

Were you aware during your time on

this case that Secretary Clinton's staff used Lenovo computers to
perform the culling?
Mr. Pittard.

I think, if I recall correctly, the questioning

was that you had asked, or someone had asked, if Ms. Moyer knew
whether Lenovo computers was used for the culling?
Mr. Breitenbach.
Mr. Pittard.

Yes.

And if I recall correctly, her testimony was

that she didn't know.

She can tell better than me, but she didn't

know one way or the other whether it was used.
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Ms. Moyer.

Right.

I think the question was did I know what

kind of computers were used.

And I said I didn't remember.

And

then somebody said, well, could it have been Lenovo, and I said
that sounded familiar.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

Okay.

Knowing now after the fact that Lenovo computers

were in fact used for the culling, based on information, at least
from this article, and, as you state, potential security review
indicating not that the government should not use Lenovo
computers, is it possible that the Lenovo computers that were used
for the culling of Secretary Clinton's emails in any way gave
access to the Chinese Government to those particular emails?
Mr. Pittard.

And again, just to be clear, your postulating

or offering that Lenovo computers were used.

I certainly have no

basis to dispute that, but Ms. Moyer is not confirming that -- or
she doesn't -- her testimony is she doesn't know.
You're saying if Lenovo computers were used and given that
you've read a couple paragraphs from this article, could it be
that the particular Lenovo computers used by Secretary Clinton or
her people engaged in beaconing?
Mr. Breitenbach.
Mr. Pittard.
right?

You rephrased that very well, yes.

Which, of course, sounds awfully hypothetical,

If this, if that could possibly have happened.

Mr. Breitenbach.

Well, let's go slightly less hypothetical.

BY MR. BREITENBACH:
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Q

Based on you are a counterintelligence lawyer, is that

accurate to state?
A

I'm a lawyer in the counterintelligence law unit.

I'm

not sure there is a counterintelligence lawyer.
Q

Okay.

Is your expertise as a lawyer within the FBI with

regard to counterintelligence?
A

National security and counterintelligence, yeah.

Q

So in your understanding, based on counterintelligence,

without getting into classified discussion, because we're not in a
location for that, is it your understanding that there are foreign
actors that have the ability to hack into United States computer
systems, yes?
A

Generally?

Q

Generally.

A

Yes, that's my understanding.

Q

Is it your understanding, generally, that China is one

of those actors?
A

Yes.

Q

So, again, knowing that there are concerns with regard

to purchasing Lenovo equipment for the United States Government,
are you -- do you believe that it was a possibility that there was
the availability for China to access Secretary Clinton's emails
because they were culled through Lenovo laptops?
A

I don't --

Mr. Pittard.

Again, there's just so many -- I don't mean to
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be difficult, but there are so many -- it makes me uncomfortable
because there's so many layers of hypotheticalness.
the Lenovo computers used.
that they were.

About were

It sounds like you have information

Ms. Moyer has no idea.

You said, or could it be that Lenovo computers have been a
source for compromising information.
heard that.

She say, yeah, I might have

You show her an article that in a couple paragraphs

seems to say that.

So maybe that's true.

Mr. Breitenbach.

And then --

Okay.

BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

Did anyone at the FBI ever bring up any concerns that

Lenovo computers were used to perform the culling of Secretary
Clinton's emails?
A

Not that I remember.

Q

Okay.

Thank you.

BY MR. SOMERS:
Q

If we could switch tracks here a little bit.

I don't

think we've talked much about the investigation into the Trump
campaign and possible ties between the Trump campaign and Russia.
Could you tell us when you became aware that the FBI
was -- had opened or was opening an investigation into ties
between the Trump campaign and Russia?
Mr. Pittard.

I'm just going to caution the witness that as

we talked about the Russia stuff, my understanding is some of
that -- some of that the FBI is fine with you talking about, and
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some is not.
Mr. Somers.

I'm sure the FBI will let us know.

Mr. Pittard.

Try to delay a couple seconds to give them a

chance to -Ms. Moyer.

Yeah, so I just want to make sure we're all

speaking in the same way about the Russia investigation.

I'm

thinking about that as the investigation into the Russian attempts
to influence the 2016 election and possibly coordinated or
colluding with members of the Trump campaign.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

Yeah.

A

That's the investigation you're talking about?

Q

That's the investigation, although we're more interested

in the second aspect of that for this purpose of this interview,
the possible ties between, or the possible collusion between the
Trump campaign and Russia?
A

Okay.

And your question, I'm sorry?

Q

When did you become aware that either a case had been

opened or was going to be opened?
A

I -- late July.

Q

And was it opened at that point in time or was it

contemplated being open?
A

Contemplated.

Q

And how did you learn of the case?

A

Someone brought me a communication from one of our
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foreign LEGAT offices that described some information that would
use to predicate the case.
Q

Who is that someone?

A

It's another GS-15 attorney.

Q

It wasn't Pete Strzok?

A

No, he did not actually bring it to me.

Q

And do you know who authorized the initiation of the

Russia investigation?
A

So I know that there were discussions of it up to and

including the Director, but he doesn't usually have to authorize a
case, and so the case was opened after those discussions by Pete
Strzok.
Q

Was Pete Strzok the lead or in charge of the

investigation when it was open?
A

I wouldn't say that actually in this case.

Q

Do you know who was in charge?

Who would you

characterize as being in charge?
A

I would say that was the supervisory special agent,

again, not a GS-15 -- I mean, not an SES employee.

Not a GS-15

either.
Q

And do you have knowledge of alleged Trump ties between

the Trump campaign and Russia prior to the investigation being
formally opened?
A

No.

Mr. Breitenbach.

Is it that SSA that's unnamed just now who
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actually opened the investigation?

Because I understand there are

opening documents when the FBI begins to investigate a subject.
Was it the SSA who actually opened that investigation?
Ms. Moyer.

No.

My understanding is that Pete opened the

investigation.
Mr. Breitenbach.

Okay.

BY MR. SOMERS:
Q

Okay.

And did you work on the investigation?

A

Yes.

Q

And when did you start working on the investigation?

A

The day I saw the original predicating information.

Q

And that's late July?

A

Late July.

Q

And what was your role in the investigation?

A

I was one of the attorneys assigned.

By that time, by

then I had become a unit chief.
Q

So what did that entail?

A

What did that -- being the unit chief?

Q

No, I'm sorry, your role in the investigation.

What

type of -A

So I think there was another -- there was a line

attorney assigned as well, and that person probably took more of
the lead on the line attorney questions.

I supervised that

person.
Q

And that was FBI line attorney?
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A

Yes.

Q

I'm assuming, again, not SES?

A

Correct.

Mr. Breitenbach.
Midyear Exam --

Had that line attorney been involved in the

I mean, investigation?

Ms. Moyer.

Yes.

BY MR. SOMERS:
Q

And then why were you chosen to be involved in the

Trump-Russia investigation.
Mr. Pittard.
Ms. Moyer.

If you know.
Right.

The investigation was being run out of

, and that was one of the sections that my unit advises.
BY MR. SOMERS:
Q

So you weren't really assigned to the case, it just fell

to you because of where you worked?
A

Yeah.
BY MR. BAKER:

Q

Why would that case have been opened at headquarters

instead of Washington field office?
A

I don't know.

Q

Well, is it normal that a case would be opened at

headquarters as opposed to a field office?
A

It's not normal.

Most cases are opened in the field,

but there are cases that are handled out of headquarters.
have the authority to open cases.
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Q

Is there any commonality amongst the cases that are

handled out of headquarters?
A

I'm only aware of three cases.

And usually they're ones

that they want to keep more of a close -- make sure that
information about the cases don't get out into the public.
Q

So you're aware of three cases total in recent times or

ever in your whole tenure?
A

In my career, I'm aware of three cases that I've worked

on that have been handled at headquarters.
Q

And this is one of them?

A

Yeah.

Q

That include Midyear and one of the three?

A

Yes.

Q

So Midyear and this Russia case are two of the three --

A

Yeah.

Q

-- during your 13-year career at the FBI?

A

Right.

Q

I'm sorry.

A

I was only handling counterintelligence cases, so there

But I --

may have been others from other divisions.
Q

From other violations or classifications?

A

Um-hmm.

Q

The third one, is it related to these two in any way?

A

No.

Mr. Breitenbach.

Do you recall what the third one is?
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Ms. Moyer.

Yeah.

Mr. Breitenbach.
Ms. Beesee.

Can you --

If we're going into any other

investigative -- investigations the FBI is working on, we're going
to instruct her not to answer those questions.
Mr. Sinton.

I believe she has answered that it is not

related.
Mr. Breitenbach.
Ms. Beesee.
that.

Is this an ongoing case?

She can't -- we will instruct her not to answer

If it's ongoing or not ongoing.

If it involves an FBI

investigation -Mr. Sinton.

Or we can take a break and talk to the witness

for a second.
[Discussion off the record.]
Ms. Beesee.

So we will instruct the witness not to answer

any questions related to any unrelated investigations.

Just given

the fact of the area that she works in, we will not allow her to
answer.
Mr. Breitenbach.

I think one of our concerns has been during

our investigation is how this, these two particular
investigations, the Clinton investigation as well as the Russia
investigation, have been handled differently from one another.
But I think it's a legitimate line of inquiry to determine
whether the one particular case other than those two on which she,
Ms. Moyer, has any historical knowledge about concerning opening
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at headquarters, I think that's an important line of inquiry

because it indicates how different the cases that are at hand are
from normal cases handled by the FBI.
Ms. Beesee.

I understand your line of questioning, but if

you ask anything other than was this handled differently, you will
probably need to ask more questions that goes into details or more
facts about an investigation that we will not allow you to ask.
So we just don't-Mr. Breitenbach.

Can we --

Ms. Beesee.

-- I'm sorry.

Mr. Somers.

I think we're fine with your objection.

I'll

just ask one question.
BY MR. SOMERS:
Q

You said in your 13 years at headquarters you were aware

of three cases, or you were involved in three cases that were
opened at the headquarters level.

This third case that we're not

able to discuss, when did that fall in your 13-year tenure?
A

Earlier.

Q

Now earlier, we discussed --

A

And there may have been another case, too, so again --

Q

Would that have been earlier as well, in the

13-year -- in your 13-year tenure?
A

You're giving me too much time to think about this.

There may have been -- no, it's going on now, I think, but
unrelated.
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BY MR. BAKER:
Q

But it's fair to say few and far between are the cases

that have as their office of origin FBI headquarters.

It's

normally a field office?
A

Based on my experience, that's true.

I don't know what

other divisions do.
Q

So you were in two big investigations, two of three or

four that are unique in your 13-year tenure in that they're opened
at headquarters, and you've got other matters that are coming
across your desk unrelated to these two big cases.

Are these a

significant drain on you, or are they a drain on the bigger FBI?
A

I don't know that I'd characterize it as a drain, but I

was certainly very busy with these two investigations.
Q

Okay.

Not characterizing it as a drain, would it be

fair to say that one case became a priority over the other case,
at least in some aspects?
A

I don't think of them as going on at the same time, for

the most part.

As you know, at some point in October, we were

busy on both cases, but for the most part, they did not overlap.
Q

I don't want to go too far back into Clinton email

questions, but we've heard testimony and, I believe, reviewed
documents and, I think, maybe the IG report alludes to it, that at
least in regards to the Weiner laptop, and what was or wasn't done
in a timely manner by commentators, that the reason given for that
was that the Russia case had become a priority.
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A

That's not how I looked at it.

Q

So you did not see one being more of a priority than the

other?

Russia being the priority at the expense of the Weiner

laptop?
A

No.

Q

Okay.
BY MR. SOMERS:

Q

We discussed earlier a little bit who you reported to on

the Midyear Exam investigation.

Who did you report to on the

Trump-Russia investigation?
A

It was the same, that my section chief, I think she was

back by then, but I was still working directly with Trisha and Jim
Baker.
Q

So your section chief was not involved in the

Trump-Russia investigation?
A

Correct.

Q

Okay.

Who else was involved, let's just for names, the

SES employees, who else, to your knowledge, was involved in the
Trump-Russia investigation at its early stages?
A

Executive?

You mean the executives?

Q

Well, obviously the only names you're able to recall are

SES names, so that's what I'm asking.
A

Basically the same executives, all the executives.

Pete

Strzok, as you know, Bill Priestap, I think the EAD at that time,
the assistant executive director was Mike
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Steinbach -- yeah -- Dave Bowdich, Andrew McCabe, and Director
Comey.
Q

What about --

A

I'm sorry?

Q

I was going to say what about Lisa Page?

A

Oh, I don't consider her an executive, but she was

involved.
Q

Okay.

A

And Jon Moffa.

Q

And what about at the Department?

A

The Department, we worked with, I think, the same

attorneys.

I'm trying to remember.

This case was more of a national security investigation.

We

were concerned about the Russian efforts, and so we did bring in
some attorneys from OI, Office of Intelligence, we had not worked
with on the Midyear team.
Q

Did you work with Stu Evans?

A

Yes, he is the DAG in charge of OI.

Q

George Toscas was -- did he have involvement?

A

He was made aware of the case, and became more involved

as it went on.
Q

What about the two, Stu Evans was -- had a larger role

than Toscas?
A

It depended on the timing.

They were both of equal rank

and had different objectives, different roles and
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154

responsibilities.
Q

All right.

And were you involved in the FISA process on

the Trump-Russia investigation?
A

I was.

Q

Just in general, what's your involvement in FISA

applications at the Bureau?
A

So as a unit chief, I don't always have much

involvement.

The line attorney essentially receives a FISA

request that's approved by the field.

That is a request from the

FBI agent, who writes up what they believe is the probable cause
that meets the standard for FISA.

And NSCLB attorney will approve

that review for probable cause and approve it, and the request
goes over to the Office of Intelligence, OI, at the Department and
they draft the FISA application in coordination with the case
agent.
Q

And I'm not familiar with all those --

A

Sorry.

Q

-- all those sub components.

A

It's a complicated process.

Q

Yeah.

The general counsel's office, at what point in

that process you described is the general counsel's office?
A

Oh, that's NSCLB, is my branch, the National Security

and Cyber Law Branch, so that's the general counsel's office.
The case agent in the field drafts up a request and it
goes -- we have a FISA management system that the request goes
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155

through and gets various approvals from operators, from the case
agent supervisors, and then it comes into the OGC-NSCLB.
Q

But is that request, is that a formal -- does it look

like a FISA application or is it something less formal than that?
A

No, it's more of a -- it's a different document and it

gives prompts.

Like so it has questions so the field agent knows

what information would be beneficial to helping the OI attorneys
officially draft the document.
Q

When you say a field agent, it could be a field agent

from Texas, and they would come to you or your office with that
request?
A

Yes, it would come to NSCLB

I would not see the ones that are related to counterterrorism or
cyber or, you know, they are divvied up, depending on the subject
matter to different attorneys.
Q

And what was your role in the Carter Page FISA

application?
A

So for that one, it was unusual, as I mentioned, that

the team that was working on that investigation was at
headquarters.

So we talked to that team, the other attorney and

I, about drafting up a FISA request and provided them guidance on
what OI would be looking for to meet probable cause.
Q

Did you get that initial sort of less formal document

that we just discussed in this or was this more of an oral?
A

I think we had discussions but I'm pretty sure
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eventually we got a FISA request form.
Q

Okay.

So you get the FISA request form and then that

has to be turned into a FISA application, is that correct?
A

Right.

So the FISA request form, once we approve it,

and then the section chief is an SESer, and the
counterintelligence division approves it, and then it goes to OI
and gets turned into an actual FISA application.
Q

Okay.

But in this -- in the case of the Carter Page

FISA application, did the section chief -- I'm just going back
to -- I think you said your section chief was not involved in the
Trump-Russia -A

It wouldn't be our section chief.

It's the operational

division section chief.
Q

Okay.

A

So we approve it, the NSCLB attorney would say that they

agree that there is probable cause.

And then the operational

section chief at headquarters decides that this is something
worthwhile to spend the resources -- you know, it's a worthwhile
investigation.

That's the SES level approval before it goes

across the street to DOJ.
Q

So you're not actually approving it, you're just --

A

Well, we're approving that we believe it meets the

probable cause standard.
Q

And you could stop it before it gets to that?

A

Yes, and I have on some.
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Q

Okay.

And you mentioned probable cause would be the

factor that would stop it from moving forward?
A

Yep.

Q

What did you review in terms of probable cause in the

Carter Page -A

So like other cases, I both knew what was in the FISA

request as well as other information, because I had worked on the
case and we had had meetings about it.
FISA request.

I believe I reviewed the

I was not -- I was a unit chief at this point, and

that, you know, the person that reviews it and approves it for
NSCLB is generally a line attorney, so I think I just reviewed it
in support of the line attorney.
Q

But you, I just want to be clear, you're reviewing the

application, not what's behind the application.

Is that correct?

Or are you reviewing both?
A

We are reviewing the request.

So that is what the case

agent -- the facts and circumstances that the case agent believes
lead to probable cause.
Q

So you don't -- do you review the Woods' file?

A

No.

Q

Did you review the Woods' file in the Carter Page

application?
A

No.

Q

Did you ever review a Woods' file?

A

When OI goes out to the field and does accuracy reviews
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on FISAs, I'm usually there with them when they're going through
the Woods' file.

And sometimes I will help the case agents

organize the Woods' file in a way to make that process a little
easier.
Q

Only on the -- what did you say, audit, was that --

A

It's an accuracy review.

Q

Accuracy review.

organize a Woods' file?
A

That's when you would help them

I just want to be clear.

Well, yes, that's when I would be involved.

The case

agents all have their own way of organizing their Woods' files
before then, but some of them are better at it than others.

So

sometimes before the accuracy review, I will help them.
Q

Okay.

So beyond the case agent, who looks at a Woods'

A

The supervisory special agent in the field.

Q

In the field.

file?

But no one else out of the field of that

chain looks at a Woods' file in general?
A

That is correct, except both of those individuals sign

the Woods' form indicating that the facts are true and accurate
and that they have documents to support those facts.
Q

And that's something you do look at?

A

We see the Woods' form, yes.

Q

So what does the Department or the FBI need to

demonstrate to the FISC in order to get permission to conduct
surveillance pursuant to FISA?
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A

Probable cause that the target is an agent, is a foreign

power and an agent of a foreign power.
Q

Is there any different requirement when the target is a

United States citizen?
A

It's a different provision in the statute.

It's still

probable cause, but the language is a little different so you're
kind of proving different things.
So for a U.S. person, you have to show probable cause.

In

our cases, there's, I think, five different provisions you could
plead them under.

And ours we are usually pleading it under that

they're aiding and abetting -- knowingly aiding and abetting
someone who is engaged in clandestine intelligence gathering on
behalf of a foreign power, which may violate the U.S. Code.
Q

Beyond the --

Mr. Breitenbach.

Real quick.

The U.S. Code, the U.S.

Criminal Code?
Ms. Moyer.

Yeah.

Mr. Breitenbach.
Ms. Moyer.

Okay.

I don't think it says U.S. Code, actually.

think it says may be a violation of criminal laws.

I

If you have

the statute, I can point out to you where I'm talking about.
Mr. Breitenbach.

So it differentiates between getting a FISA

on a non-U.S. person, and a U.S. person based on the fact that the
U.S. person also has be shown to have violated some criminal law?
Ms. Moyer.

That's not the only differentiation but it
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definitely does -Mr. Breitenbach.
Ms. Moyer.

That's one?

That is a, yeah, difference between the two.

Mr. Breitenbach.

Okay.

Thank you.

BY MR. SOMERS:
Q

And so who signs the actual FISA application?

A

So now we're talking application as opposed to request,

right?
Q

Yes.

A

Okay.

of Justice.

So the application is drafted by the Department

And after all of the process and the Woods and

everything has been verified, it is signed by the OI attorney who
drafted it.

The actual application is signed by the OI attorney

who drafted it; a supervisory special agent from headquarters, who
is the affiant; and then it is signed by one of, I think, eight
executives, but it's usually the Director of the FBI, as well as
the AG or his or her designee, and that can be either the AG, the
DAG, or the AAG for National Security Division.
In addition, we have a memo that is like an executive summary
that's also signed by the OI supervisor, our NSCLB line attorney
and one of our SES attorneys in NSCLB.
Q

What duties do you owe to the court in terms of what

goes into the FISA application?
A
a court.

So I think it's like any other pleading that you make to
The FISA court is made up of Federal judges from other
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district courts so we owe the duty of candor, honesty, full and
complete, accurate statements.
Q

And if there's exculpatory evidence, is that part of the

duty of candor if you're aware of exculpatory evidence?
A

Yes, it definitely would be in the FISA court, because

it's an ex-parte proceeding.

So I think that we at the FBI -- and

I know I have, I think of that as a little bit of a heightened
standard even than you would have in a normal criminal case.

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[3:13 p.m.]
Mr. Somers.

Okay.

What about information regarding the

reliability of human sources within the -- that are relied on for
the application.
Ms. Moyer.

I think you have to include the information that

would allow the judge to know, kind of make an accurate assessment
about the reliability and credibility of the source.
BY MR. BAKER:
Q

I want to clarify something you said about the SSA

affiant.

As opposed or compared to a criminal case in the field

where an SSA or an SA might be going before the court, would it be
fair to say that oftentimes the affiant is actually the case agent
and could answer questions from the judge on the spot?
A

In the field?

Q

In the field, in a criminal matter.

A

That's my understanding that --

Q

But because of the central nature of the FISA court, the

affiant may not really know anything about the case having not
worked on it.

They might know as the package is being put

together, and they may become familiar before they go and swear to
it, but they're generally not the person that worked on it.

Is

that true?
A

So the SSA is not the case agent, so not -- probably

doesn't have as much firsthand knowledge as a case agent would,
but they are supervising the case.

So I would not say that they

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don't have any understanding of the case.

They are the

headquarters supervisor of the case and -Q

So they're involved in the substantive unit that's --

A

Correct.

Q

-- monitoring the case or investigating the case?

A

Yes, that's program managing the case.

Q

Okay.

You also mentioned these accuracy reviews.

I'm

guessing if the FBI sees fit to send a team to inspect the Woods
files they take the accuracy of the Woods files seriously?
A

Yes.

Q

It's my understanding, correct me if this is wrong, that

a deficient Woods file can actually lead to disciplinary action
against the case agent?
A

I don't know exactly what the procedures are for that.

I do know that part of the reasons we have the Woods file is
because there were questions about the accuracy of a FISA
application before I -- you know, long before I got to FBI.
Q

So the Woods -- and you touched on this a little bit.

The purpose of the Woods file is to be a check on the accuracy of
facts and statements made?

It's a repository for where the facts

came from?
A

Right, yeah.

is a check.

I was going to say, I don't know that it

It is just like -- it is like if you had a paper you

were writing and all the footnotes that you had in your paper and
you and all the documents for those footnotes, that's what the
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Woods file is.

It's just -- and we have it in a file so that

people can go back and review it.
Q

Thank you.
BY MR. SOMERS:

Q

But there's no -- I mean, you talk about the duty of

candor owed to the court, but no one that owes that duty to the
court is necessarily reviewing the Woods file.
A

Is that correct?

I think that that's why we have a Woods form because the

person that's signing the application is relying on the
individuals who have signed the Woods form that they have the
Woods file.

And I will say, there are some cases in which the SSA

who signs -- the headquarters SSA will go out and review the Woods
file before they sign the FISA.
Q

Do you know if that happened in the case of the Carter

A

I don't think it did in this case.

Q

I'm sorry?

A

I don't think it did in this case.

Q

So in terms of the -- I mean, you don't review the Woods

Page?

file, but what's required?

What type of investigation is required

to create the Woods file?
A

We don't really investigate to create a Woods file.

You

use the Woods file to correlate the investigative documents that
would support probable cause.

So they're already out in the file.

Now we just move them to the Woods file to support every fact.
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Q

But if there's an allegation in the FISA application,

it's supposed to have something backed up in the Woods file?
A

Correct.

For every factual assertion in the FBI -- in

the FISA application the case agents are required to have a
document in the Woods file to support it.
Q

So I guess my question is, what counts as a document?

Does a news article count as a document?
A
in FISAs.

I guess it could, but that's not really generally used
I mean, it would be a 302, a source reporting, analysis

that someone did on phone records or the phone records themselves
or an intel product that was drafted by either us or other
agencies.
Q

So the source report could appear in the FISA

application, like source A said X, and what could be in the Woods
file to back that up is just the report of the source.

There

doesn't have to be something corroborating that?
A

Right.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:

Q

You didn't read -- you said you didn't read the Woods

file at the time of the request or at the time of the application.
Is that accurate?
A

Right.

Q

Have you ever read the Woods file or seen the documents

located in the Woods file?
A

I've seen parts of them, and I think the whole file has
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166

been emailed to me at one point, but I've not had the opportunity
to review the whole thing.
Q

The parts that you have reviewed, have you in any way

questioned the accuracy?

Because I think you mentioned that it

goes through a verification.

So are you questioning whether any

parts of the Woods file were accurately verified?
A

No.

Q

And you're only -- you only personally have reviewed

parts of the Woods file?
A

Yes.

Q

Did you ever have a heightened sense of importance

concerning the Carter Page FISA?
A

I think that given the sensitivity of the case, I think

everybody wanted to make sure that everything was complete and
accurate.
Q

Are you aware whether there were any other FISAs

obtained in connection with this case?
Mr. Wellons.

I believe the question asked is if she's aware.

Is that the question?
Mr. Breitenbach.
Ms. Bessee.

Correct.

May we confer with the witness?

[Discussion off the record.]
Mr. Breitenbach.
Ms. Bessee.

Okay.

We're back.

The question goes into equities that may relate

to the special counsel investigation, so I will instruct the
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witness not to answer.

It's an ongoing investigation, and she

will not be able to answer that question.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

Okay.

Previously you had mentioned, I think, that to

your knowledge an audit or a Woods review has not been performed
on the Carter Page FISA.
A

Correct.

Q

Who would have the power to authorize that review?

A

Really anyone.

Q

Could you?

A

That's not really -- that's normally not how it happens,

but it's not like they're secret Woods files.

So if someone

wanted to -- like I said, if there was an SSA that wanted to
review the Woods file before signing, they can go and look at it.
Q

Are you aware of news reports in the past year

indicating that there are questions about the sufficiency of the
Carter Page FISA?

The sufficiency -- I'm sorry, the sufficiency

concerning the evidence that was used to obtain the FISA.
A

I am aware of news reports that, yeah, that -- I'm not

sure exactly if it's the sufficiency of the evidence or what
exactly the concerns are about the FISA.
Q

Is there a reason why a Woods review has not been

authorized?
Mr. Pittard.
Ms. Moyer.

That you're aware of.
Not that I'm aware of.
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BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

Would you advise that a Woods review be conducted to

ensure that the documents that were used to verify the facts or
the alleged facts established in the probable cause determination
in the FISA were accurate?

Would you advise that that review now

be conducted?
A

I'm not sure it hasn't been conducted.

I don't think

I'd advise -- I wouldn't advise it out of the blue, but -Q

So it's possible that one has been conducted?

A

Yeah, it's possible.

Q

You wouldn't necessarily have to know --

A

No.

Q

-- that a Woods review is occurring on this particular

A

Not on this particular FISA.

Q

Is that something you would want to know?

A

Do I personally want to know, no.

Q

Yes.

A

No.

Q

Okay.

I am not aware of one.

FISA?

Mr. Somers.

Prior to receiving the pre-document for the FISA

application, the document from the agent that wanted the
application, had you heard the name Carter Page before?
Mr. Pittard.
Ms. Bessee.

Is it okay to answer to that?
We may need to confer.
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169

[Discussion off the record.]
Ms. Bessee.

Ms. Moyer will not be able to answer the

question as it may impact not only special counsel's equities but
it may also impact any other FBI equity.
Mr. Somers.

She can't even answer the first question yes or

no and then -Ms. Bessee.

No, she cannot.

Mr. Baker.

Do you know if the FISC had any concerns of -- my

understanding as the FISA moves through the FISA process there's
back and forth with attorneys to add things that bolster it or
whatever.

Were there any concerns, either when initially

presented or subsequent to all the reporting on this FISA, did the
FISC have any concerns that they were not provided everything they
needed to or that they were deceived in some way?
Mr. Pittard.

That you're aware of.

BY MR. BAKER:
Q

That you're aware of.

A

I was just going to say, I was not made aware of any

concerns with the FISC.
Q

Even now you haven't heard?

A

Even now, no.

Q

Okay.

Thank you.

BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

Are you aware of whether anyone inside the FBI is being

tasked by Special Counsel Mueller's office?
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A

Tasked in what way?

Q

In any way, to investigate whatsoever this -- the

particular investigation concerning President Trump's supposed
collusion with Russia?
Ms. Bessee.

To the extent that that question goes into what

the special counsel is doing related to their investigation, she
cannot answer that question.
Mr. Breitenbach.
whatsoever.

No.

I'm not asking about the substance

I'm just asking --

Ms. Bessee.

But you're asking about a method, if they are

using or talking to anyone in the FBI.

So that goes into their

investigative methods, so she will not be able to answer that
question.
Mr. Breitenbach.

I'm really not asking anything about the

substance or the investigative methods.

I'm just wondering is

there any -- asked another way, she -- Ms. Moyer is still with the
FBI.
Are you still engaged at all with respect to the Russia/Trump
investigation?
Ms. Bessee.

To the extent she may be engaged as it relates

to an ongoing investigation, I will not have her answer that
question.

So her engagement as an FBI employee is also related to

the fact that the FBI is still involved or may be working with the
special counsel.

So that still goes to special counsel's ongoing

investigative efforts.

I don't think she can answer that question
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as separate from the special counsel because it relates to the
investigation itself.
Mr. Breitenbach.

I think the concern here, once again, with

our investigation, is trying to understand the origins of the
investigation and if the -- the Russia investigation, that is.
And if the origins of the Russia investigation are no longer the
origins with respect to FBI involvement, then I think it's
important for us to understand whether the FBI is still involved
with reviewing in any way the facts that are being reviewed by the
special counsel.
Ms. Bessee.

So the investigation that the FBI opened was

what was being continued by the special counsel.

The FBI is still

involved because there are still FBI investigators that are
involved with working with the special counsel.

To the extent

that that impacts other FBI employees, that is still a part of the
ongoing overall investigation.
I don't think she can answer that question sort of separate
as Sally Moyer, an FBI employee, because if it's any way related
to the ongoing investigation, she really cannot answer that
question.
Mr. Breitenbach.

So can you answer -- you just mentioned

that FBI investigators are assigned to the special counsel's
investigation.

Are those the only FBI officials assigned to the

special counsel's investigation?
Ms. Bessee.

I cannot answer that question.
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a -- that's a question for the special counsel.
Mr. Breitenbach.
Mr. Brebbia.

Okay.

Going back to the Carter Page FISA application,

at the time of your review, you are aware that Christopher Steele
is a source for the -- for some of the -- at least some of the
information contained in the application.

Is that true?

Is that

accurate?
Ms. Moyer.

The timing of that, I don't remember if we had

the request form done before we got the Steele information.
Mr. Wellons.

Excuse me, if I may, just because I don't want

us to have to break this up.
unclassified setting.

We'll remind Ms. Moyer we're in an

For questions along this line about the

Carter Page FISA, if you can respond by giving unclassified or
declassified information, please feel free to do so.
object.

We won't

If you're not sure, please do ask to confer with the FBI

counsel.
Ms. Moyer.

Okay.

Mr. Wellons.

Thank you.

BY MR. BREBBIA:
Q

So at the time of your review, are you aware that

Christopher Steele is the source?
A

So I reviewed it over the course of its, you know, life

cycle, so before the -- it was finalized and when it included the
Christopher Steele information, yes, I was aware of that.
Q

Okay.

And had it also been communicated to you prior to
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it being finalized that Christopher Steele had expressed to others
that he did not want then-candidate Trump to be elected?
A

No.

Q

Did -- was it communicated to you sometime after the

election that Christopher Steele had communicated to others that
he did not want President Trump to stay as President?
A

No.

Q

Do you recall any conversations with other people at the

FBI around the FISA Page warrant before or after it's authorized
initially that Christopher Steele had expressed to -- I'm going to
use specific names here -- Bruce Ohr that he did not want Trump to
be elected?
A

So I recall a conversation with Bruce Ohr where he said

something about Steele's position on Trump, but I don't know that
it was that he did not want Trump to be elected.

I don't remember

those words.
Q

Did it -- the conversation with Bruce Ohr, did it

reflect that Christopher Steele had a bias one way or the other
towards either candidate or President Trump?
A

No.

I didn't think that there was -- that it reflected

any sort of bias because I think that the explanation that Bruce
Ohr gave of Christopher Steele was more -- it was more fulsome.
It wasn't just that he made this statement.

There was other

information that led me to believe that it was not particularly
biased.
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Q

So I just want to back up.

gave this answer.

I apologize if you already

During the point -- at any point after the FISA

has been approved, at no time before had you heard this, but
anytime after had you learned that Christopher Steele had
communicated to others generally a bias against either candidate
or President Trump?
A

Again, I'm not sure I took it as a bias.

Bruce Ohr made

a statement that Christopher Steele was -- had some view about
President Trump.
Q

I don't remember the words exactly.

At the time -- at the time you had this conversation

with Bruce Ohr, where are we in relation to the Carter Page FISA?
A

After it was initiated.

Q

Has it been approved by the court yet?

A

Oh, yeah.

When I say initiated, I mean approved by the

court.
Q

What was the -- can you describe the setting of this

conversation with Bruce Ohr?
A

It was a meeting at FBI headquarters between Bruce Ohr

and some of the investigators on what I would deem the Russian
influence investigation, and I was a party.
Q

When was this meeting?

A

November 2016, late November.

Q

Post election?

A

Yes.

Q

Post presidential election?
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I was at the meeting.

 COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
A

Yes.

Q

Why were you meeting with Bruce Ohr?

A

My understanding is that Bruce reached out to the FBI

175

and that he was told to meet with the investigative team.
BY MR. BAKER:
Q

To the extent you can, that they're not below SES, who

were the investigators present?
A

I just remember that the SSA was present, John Moffa, I

believe Lisa Page was there, and Peter Strzok, myself, I think one
of the other analysts.
Q

Thank you.
BY MR. BREBBIA:

Q

And at this -- it was communicated to you that Bruce Ohr

had initiated this meeting?
A

I think he had reached out to the FBI, is my

understanding.
Q

And this is the same Bruce Ohr who works for the

Department of Justice?
A

Yes.

Q

At the time of this meeting were you aware of

Christopher Steele's status as a confidential source, as a source
for the FBI?
A

At the time of the meeting he was no longer a source of

the -- for the FBI.
Q

He had been closed?
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A

Correct.

Q

Do you know why he had been closed?

A

Yes.

Q

Why had he been closed?

A

For disclosing his relationship to the media.

Q

During this discussion with Bruce Ohr did Mr. Ohr relate

to you conversations he had had with Christopher Steele?
A

I think he may have talked about that.

the specifics.

I don't remember

Like I said, there was --

Q

Well, what did he talk about?

A

I think --

Q

Or what did Bruce Ohr talk about?

A

We were meeting -- one of the reasons that the

investigators were talking to Bruce Ohr was to try to get further
clarity about Christopher Steele and his reliability.

After we

had -- after the FBI closed him, the investigative team was making
efforts to try to figure out if there were other issues or trying
to verify the information he had provided.
So they wanted to talk to Bruce Ohr because they knew that he
had had a relationship with him, so they were trying to get a
better sense of his background, his reputation, the sorts of
questions that you would ask others to try to verify your source
reliability.
Q

And so I assume that one of those things, if it had been

communicated to the FBI agents that Christopher Steele had
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177

expressed strong desire that candidate Trump not be elected
President, that would have been information that the FBI agents
would have been -- and the FBI personnel would have been
interested in receiving, right?
A

If that's how it had been communicated, yes.

Q

And if it had been communicated that way, it would have

been documented?
A

So, I would expect so, but I don't write the documents.

Q

You would expect so?

A

Uh-huh.

Q

In a normal -- in a regular course of business, if you

find that a source of yours has a bias against a target, potential
target of yours, you would document that somewhere?
A

I think you're assuming that that is what was said in

this meeting, and I don't remember that being said in this
meeting.
Q

Okay.

Let's -- I know we sometimes bounce back between

general policies and specific, so I'm going to jump out of the
specific meeting, talk generally.

If you had a meeting where you

learned that a confidential source was biased against a potential
target of an investigation, that's something that you would
document as part of your investigation?
Mr. Pittard.

Is the -- the question is whether it's

something that Ms. Moyer would document?
Mr. Brebbia.

Say the FBI writ large would document as part
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of its investigation.
Mr. Pittard.
Ms. Moyer.

To the extent you know.
To the extent I know, but I think that that's

a -- I don't think we document people's biases.

We document facts

that might make people -- might make someone make an assessment
about people's credibility and biases.

So I don't know that we

would say our source is biased or the FBI would say our source is
biased.

It would be these are additional facts you need to know

about our -- the source.
Mr. Brebbia.

Okay.

Because it could be potential Brady

information, right?
Ms. Moyer.
Mr. Pittard.

This is --

Ms. Moyer.

If you know.
I mean, the hypothetical, of course, anything

could be potential Brady information.
Mr. Brebbia.

Okay.

Mr. Breitenbach.

Well, let's pull it back to the --

Actually, do you believe Brady applies to

FISA?
Ms. Moyer.

Yes.

Mr. Breitenbach.
Ms. Moyer.

Yes.

I mean, I haven't thought about it legally, but

the way the FBI operates is if -- exculpatory information would
have to be included in a FISA.
BY MR. BREBBIA:
Q

This interaction with Bruce Ohr, how was it documented?
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A

It was documented in a 302.

Q

Who was the author of the 302?

A

I think the SSA authored the 302.

Q

Would you have documented it anywhere?

A

No.
BY MR. SOMERS:

Q

Would that 302 then go into the Woods file?

A

No.

The Woods file relates to specific facts in the

application, so it would have gone to the file, the case file, and
then if we -- if the FBI referenced that conversation in the next
application, then it would go into the Woods file too.
Q

But if the source is in the FISA, does information about

the credibility of the source go in the Woods file?
A

So part of the FISA includes a statement about

credibility and that's -- there could be documents in the Woods
file that would verify that statement.

So if that statement

includes something from this 302, it would include that 302.

It

could include other information.
The other thing to keep in mind is that source information is
closely guarded because it could reveal the identity of a source,
which is something the FBI is very careful about.

And so there

are times when there's just references in the Woods file to go to
the source file.
BY MR. BAKER:
Q

You say there might be something in the Woods file about
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credibility of the source?

Could be?

A

There could be, yeah.

Q

And would that -- would that likely be the past history

track record of the source?
A

Correct.

Usually in a FISA it will say that source

number one has been credible and reliable in the past, and that
statement has to be Woods'd, and it can be Woods'd in various
different ways.
Q

Okay.

A

And by Woods'd I mean have an underlying document to

support it.
Q

Okay.

Is it unusual -- and you may not know this.

may be more of an investigator question.

This

Is it unusual for

sources -- during the course of their useful lifetime to an
investigative agency, is it unusual for a source to be closed and
reopened?
Mr. Pittard.
Ms. Moyer.

In your experience.
In my -- I have seen -- I don't have sources,

so -- but I have seen cases in which sources are closed and
reopened, yes.
Mr. Baker.

Thank you.

BY MR. BREBBIA:
Q

How many -- is that the only meeting you had with Bruce

A

Yes.

Ohr?

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Q

181

Are you aware of any other meetings that Bruce Ohr had

with the FBI?
A

I believe that he continued to meet with the -- either

the case agent or SSA.
Q

Are you aware, was this the first meeting Bruce Ohr had

had with the FBI?
A

I believe he had met with the deputy director before he

met with the investigative team.
Q

Had you had any previous interactions with Bruce Ohr?

A

No.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:

Q

I'm sorry, which deputy director?

A

Deputy Director McCabe.

Q

Thank you.

mentioned biases.
Ms. Page.

And real quick, going back, we had already

You mentioned that you're friends with

Were you aware at any point during the pendency of this

investigation at the FBI that Ms. Page or Mr. Strzok were in any
way biased, as we've now seen in the text messages that have been
revealed, against President Trump?
A

So I saw no actions that led me to believe that they

were biased.

I have not reviewed the text messages, so I would

not characterize them as biased.
Q

I don't know.

In your discussions with Ms. Page or Mr. Strzok, did you

ever hear anything from them that indicated any bias against
President Trump?
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A

No.
BY MR. BAKER:

Q

In your opinion, why do you think the investigative team

would want to engage Bruce Ohr rather than Christopher Steele or
somebody that Mr. Ohr was the conduit for?

Why wouldn't the

investigative team want to engage Steele directly?
A

With regard to the meeting that we had?

Q

Yeah, or other meetings.

A

I wasn't a party to other meetings.

Q

Okay.

A

The meeting we had, like I said, part of that meeting

was to try to get some further information about Christopher
Steele.

We wouldn't ask him.

We'd ask other people about his,

you know, history, reliability, things like that.
Q

So that --

And Mr. Ohr would be the logical source for that based

on the relationship he already had?
A

He is a source for that, and he had already offered to

talk to the FBI.
Q

Okay.

And are there -- were there other sources for the

credibility of Steele as well?
A

The investigators talked to other people, yes.

Q

Do you know who the other people were?

A

I don't know their names.

Mr. Breitenbach.

Are you aware whether any other country was

attempting to influence the 2016 election?
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Are you aware whether

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COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
any other country was attempting to influence the 2016 election?
Mr. Wellons.

I think we better confer before she responds.

[Discussion off the record.]
Mr. Wellons.

Could we just have the question either read

back or asked again, please?
Mr. Breitenbach.

Sure.

Are you aware whether any other

country was attempt -- other than what we now believe to have been
Russia -- was attempting to influence the 2016 election?
Mr. Pittard.

So are you aware of any country other than

Russia that was trying to influence the 2016 election.

And is the

question at the time of the election were you aware of any country
other than Russia or is it as of now?
Mr. Breitenbach.
Mr. Pittard.

I'm only --

I think that would matter to these guys.

Mr. Breitenbach.

Sure.

I'm only referencing the 2016

election, presidential election.
Mr. Pittard.

And what she knew at the time of the election?

Mr. Breitenbach.
Mr. Pittard.

Yes.

So I think you guys are fine with her answering

that, right?
Mr. Wellons.
Mr. Sinton.

She can answer the question.
Just to be clear, because you're asking her

about her state of knowledge and understanding about the 2016
election back at the time of the 2016 election.
Mr. Breitenbach.

Correct.
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Ms. Moyer.

No.

BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

Would you have been aware in your position of another

country attempting to influence the 2016 election?
A

I don't know.

I mean --

Q

I'm just asking as a unit chief.

I'm just wondering, as

a unit chief, is that kind of -- we now understand that there was
an investigation of Russia that came to your unit for legal
advice.

So was -- would another country who was attempting to

influence the election, would that also have been proceeding
through your unit, or was there another unit within the General
Counsel's Office that would have handled that kind of
investigation?
A

I really don't know.

There were two -- by that point

there are two counterintelligence law units, so I don't -- I don't
know if it would have come to me or not.
Q

Okay.

No, that's helpful.

So it would -- it's possible

then if another country was attempting to influence the 2016
election that you may not have necessarily known because that
legal guidance on that particular case had gone through a
different unit?
A

It's possible, yeah.

Q

Okay.

Are -- slightly related, but are you aware

whether any other country was attempting to influence Hillary
Clinton or her campaign?
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

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Mr. Pittard.

185

As --

Mr. Breitenbach.

During the 2016 election.

[Discussion off the record.]
Mr. Wellons.

Could we have the question read back or

re-asked, in part because no one remembers precisely what the
question was.
Mr. Breitenbach.

So are you aware whether there were any

efforts during the 2016 election to influence Hillary Clinton or
her presidential campaign?
Ms. Moyer.
Mr. Somers.

By a foreign power?
Yes, by a foreign power.

Mr. Pittard.

And so the question would allow for things that

were in the public sphere at the time?
Mr. Breitenbach.

I am not asking Ms. Moyer to reveal

anything classified in this room.
Mr. Pittard.

Right.

And you're -- sorry to belabor it, but

you're asking if she's aware of efforts by Russia or any other
foreign power to impact Secretary Clinton's campaign for
presidency in 2016?
Mr. Breitenbach.

Yes, I think that's accurate to rephrase.

I think we have been -- we have understood that there has been an
investigation for nearly 2 years of President Trump's -- or
accusations that President Trump and his campaign may have had
connections with Russia.
What we have not heard -- and I'm trying to understand
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whether there was any indication inside the FBI whether there were
similar efforts potentially -- we can say it by Russia or by
another country.

And what I'm asking is, is Ms. Moyer aware of

any -- and I'll just ask you directly, are you aware of any
efforts to influence Hillary Clinton or her campaign during -- by
a foreign power during the 2016 election?
Ms. Moyer.

I'm having a hard time just because of what you

mean by influence.
Mr. Pittard.
help.

Are you -I'll just posit one thing that I think will

It might not clear it up.

But one thing that I think was

in the public sphere at the time of the 2016 election was the
effort or apparent effort of Russia to hack the DNC and influence
Clinton in that regard or influence her chances of winning in that
regard.
You probably aren't asking about that.

You might want to

exclude that or -- I think that was in the public sphere already,
and so she probably knew about it because it was in the public
sphere.

That's what I want you to try to clarify.

Mr. Breitenbach.

I'm not referencing anything.

I am

referencing only whether Ms. Moyer is aware whether there were any
efforts to influence Hillary Clinton or Hillary Clinton's campaign
during the 2016 election.
If you believe that the efforts to hack into DNC
computers -- and I'm not stipulating to that fact, but if you
believe that the public reporting on that is an attempt to
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influence Hillary Clinton or her campaign, I think that would be
included in my question.
Ms. Moyer.
Mr. Somers.

Okay.

Then yes.

Let me ask this question again then.

positively influence or impact the Clinton campaign?

How about

I take it

that the Russians were not, at least from the reporting, trying to
positively impact her campaign.

Are you aware of a foreign

government trying to positively influence, impact, help, the
Clinton campaign?
Ms. Moyer.

No.

Mr. Breitenbach.

And do you believe that that type of

effort, if it was reality, you would have known about?
Ms. Moyer.

Oh, I don't know if I would have known about it

or not.
BY MR. SOMERS:
Q

Are you familiar with defensive briefings?

A

[Inaudible response.]

Q

Are you involved at all in the process of whether a

defensive briefing is given to a -A

No.

That's generally an operational decision.

Q

So you have no involvement in that?

A

Occasionally I'll hear that they want to do a defensive

briefing, but there's no legal issues that I need to resolve about
that.
Q

Was there any discussion about -- that you were aware of
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about doing a defensive briefing as it relates to Carter Page?
A

Defensive briefing to Carter Page?

Q

No, to Donald Trump as it relates to Carter Page.

A

I was involved in a discussion in which they talked

about doing a defensive briefing for Donald Trump generally.
Q

Generally, but not with regard to Carter Page

specifically?
A

I don't remember specifically talking about Carter Page.

Mr. Brebbia.

Sorry.

I just want to pivot back to the Bruce

Ohr meeting and Bruce Ohr generally.

There's some specific

verbiage that may help refresh your recollection.
Mr. Pittard.

And before you -- I think we've been going for

about an hour and ten.
Mr. Brebbia.

If this is about to wrap up then, yeah.

Two questions.

I think maybe three.

I think

two.
Mr. Somers.

I think what we're trying to do is we're running

slightly over on this hour so that we don't have to do another
round, so we're going to run 15, 20 -- I think we should be within
about five more minutes.
BY MR. BREBBIA:
Q

Was it ever communicated to you that Christopher Steele

was desperate to prevent Donald Trump from winning?

Was it ever

communicated to you in any fashion that Christopher Steele was
desperate to prevent Donald Trump from winning?
A

That might be the word I remember being used.
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Is that

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COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
what you asked me before?
Q

No.

I apologize if I --

No, I did not have the word "desperate," but I

guess you never know what will refresh someone's recollection.
How about was it ever communicated to you in any form that
Christopher Steele was willing to do anything to keep Donald Trump
from winning?
A

I don't remember that.

Q

Okay.

But you do recall that he -- that Christopher

Steele was desperate to prevent Donald Trump from winning?
Mr. Pittard.

Or more precisely that you heard somebody say

that?
BY MR. BREBBIA:
Q

That it was communicated to you.

A

Yes, that -- that was communicated to me.

Q

What actions, if any, did you take as a result of

receiving that information?
A

I didn't take any actions.

Q

How did you perceive that statement?

A

In combination with the rest of the discussion, I think

that we already knew that Christopher Steele had his opinions
because he had spoken out about them to both our -- the source
handler when the source handler called him about his discussion
with Mother Jones, I think.

So it was just an additional fact

point of information that I thought we had already known.
Q

Just so we're clear, what were those opinions?
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What was

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Christopher Steele's opinions that he had expressed both to Mother
Jones, and his source agent, and Bruce Ohr?
A

So I think he was concerned -- well, I don't know

exactly what his thoughts were.
Steele.

I've never met Christopher

The way I interpreted the discussion we had with Bruce

Ohr is that Christopher Steele was a long time Russia expert and
he had truly believed that the Russians were attempting to
influence U.S. democracy, and so he was very concerned about the
efforts that they were taking.
And because of that he was upset with the actions that the
FBI director took that he thought had an impact on the election,
and therefore he talked to Mother Jones, which was not something
we would have wanted a source to do.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

Are his views concerning his desperation that President

Trump not win, are those views that you believe should have been
communicated to the FISC?
A

I think they were communicated to the FISC.

Maybe they

didn't use that exact word, but I think that the fact that he
want -- he was concerned about the actions of the FBI and that's
why he disclosed his relationship to Mother Jones, that was
explained and that's why we closed him.

And I think that was

explained in the next packet -- the next renewal for the FISA.
Q

I thought I understood --

Mr. Wellons.

I'm sorry, it's perhaps because I'm looking
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COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
forward to getting out of here and I know you're wrapping up.

I

think I'm going to beat you to it, but I don't think that was
precisely the question asked.
So we can wrap this up, please listen carefully to the
question that was asked and respond to the question.

I think

there was a question about were you concerned, so -- if you could
just please focus on the question that's actually being proposed.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:
Q

Do you believe that bias that was expressed by

Christopher Steele concerning his desperation that President Trump
not become President, is that a fact that should have been
communicated to the FISC?
A

I think it was communicated to the FISC.

Q

And how, in your understanding, was it communicated to

the FISC?
A

It was explained in the renewal for the FISA

application.
Q

The fact that he had a desperation that Trump not become

President?
A

I don't remember exactly what the words of the FISA

application.
Q

If you have it --

I don't.

I'm just trying to narrow down the idea that

you had expressed previously is that Christopher Steele was
released as a source by the FBI because he spoke to the press.
A

Right.
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Q

Is it that that you believe should be communicated to

the FISC, or is it the fact that the source who had been released
also had biases against President Trump or both?
A

So I've not ever described this as a bias, just this is

a fact that I'm aware of.
bias.

I'm not sure I would assess it as a

I believe that the reason that Christopher Steele was

disclosed as a source needs to be described to the FISC, and that
was described, is my understanding, my recollection.
Q

It was described in your sense that -- in your

understanding that he had been released as a source for revealing
information to the press?
A

I think it was -- I think it was described more fully

than that.
Mr. Pittard.

And maybe, if we're going to continue down

this, we really should show her -Ms. Moyer.

Right.

Mr. Pittard.
Mr. Baker.

-- the application.
I'm going to jump around just to try to clean up

a couple of things.
In one of the more infamous texts between Mr. Strzok and
Ms. Page, and this came out in a public hearing that -Mr. Sinton.

Please keep your voice up.

BY MR. BAKER:
Q

-- that these two committees held, Mr. Strzok said:

Just went to a southern Virginia Wal-Mart.
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

I could smell the

 193

COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Trump support.

And Ms. Page says:

Yep, out to lunch with Sally.

We both hate everyone and everything.
Do you believe that Sally is you?

I'll rephrase it.

Do you

hate everyone and everything?
A

Some days.

Q

But generally?

A

I don't know what that's referring to.

I've never seen

their text messages.
Q

But you don't hate everyone and everything all the time?

A

Not all the time, no.

Q

Rewinding back several hours ago, you said you had a

role in changing or assisting in the revision of Mr. Comey's draft
statement at his press conference where the negligence issue was
removed.

Did you also have a role in changing the word

"President" to "senior government official"?
A

I remember that discussion, yes, but I did not have a

role in changing it.
Q

Do you know who did?

A

Oh, I don't know who did actually.

Q

But there was a discussion about changing it?

A

Yes, for security reasons.

Q

Okay.

And that was the underlying issue for security

reasons?
A

That's my understanding, yeah.

Q

Do you remember what the concern about saying President
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194

was?
A

I think that that would have highlighted -- and given

the foreign power an opportunity to go back and look through
information to see if they could find communications with the
President.
Q

I think there was something like that.

Okay.
BY MR. BREITENBACH:

Q

But does that indicate that the FBI was aware that

President Obama was communicating with Hillary Clinton through her
private server?
A

That is true, I believe.

Q

Did you have any indication ever whether those

communications were accessed by a foreign power?
A

No, not that I'm aware of.
BY MR. BAKER:

Q

In addition to Bruce Ohr being a conduit of some

information to the FBI, were you aware that former General Counsel
Jim Baker also received information from individuals and that was
the gateway of that information into the FBI?
A

I was aware that Jim Baker had received some

information, yes.
Q

Do you know who he got the information from?

A

Yes.

Q

And who was that?

A

He received -- my understanding is that he received some
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copies of the Steele reporting from David Corn and that he
received some other information from Michael Sussman.
Q

And who is Michael Sussman?

A

A former DOJ attorney.

Q

Okay.

A

He provided it to the investigators.

Q

Did you know what the information was you said some of

And what did Mr. Baker do with the information?

the Steele reporting?
A

So I think that David Corn provided copies of the Steele

reporting, not -- the copies of things we already had.
Sussman it was not related to the Steele reporting.

From

It was

related to the Trump server communication.
Ms. Bessee.

To the extent that the answer to that question

goes into the ongoing special counsel investigation, she will not
be able to go into details of what that information is.
Ms. Moyer.

Okay.

BY MR. BAKER:
Q

I believe you said earlier in your role as the unit

chief or the line attorney, one or the other, you did read the
probable cause part of the Carter Page FISA?
A

Yes.

Q

And was the probable cause segmented out as to where it

came from when you were reading it, or that's somewhere else in
the process?
A

I'm not sure what you mean by that.
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Q

Would you have known while you're reading the probable

cause what parts of it came from Steele versus other sources?
A

Yeah.

Q

If it -- and you signed off that it was legally

sufficient?
A

Yeah.

Q

It did meet the probable cause standard that's required.

And I know -A

Let me clarify that.

I didn't sign off on it.

I --

Q

You advanced it to the next step?

A

Well, actually the line attorney approved it to go to

OI, but I agreed with that decision.
Q

If it did not have the Christopher Steele information in

it, would it still have been sufficient from a probable cause
standard?
A

So I think it's a close call, like 50/50, 51/49.

really think it's a close call.
felt more strongly about it.

I

There were others that I believed

I do think --

Q

More strongly about --

A

That there was probable cause without the Steele

information, including the line attorney that signed off on it,
but -Q

So even without the people that felt it was sufficient

without it, it was still a close call?
A

Right.
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Q

It sounds like --

A

With it I don't think it's a close call.

With it I

think that clearly meets the probable cause standard.
Q

Right.

But without it there are those that felt it did

meet a probable cause standard?
A

Yes.

Q

And those that didn't, it was still a close call or --

A

Yes.

Q

Okay.

So it was a close call by those that looked at it

or had a discussion about it and maybe some that felt it was
sufficient without it?
A

Correct.

Q

Thank you.

Mr. Somers.

I think we're done.

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[4:25 p.m.]
BY MS. SHEN:
Q

Okay, the time is 4:25.

So, Ms. Moyer, I just want to follow-up on something.

The

last thing we talked about in the previous round about the Carter
Page FISA and whether it was a close call when the reviewing
attorneys looked at the application and the evidence.
So I believe that last round you said that the line attorney
in charge of approving the Carter Page FISA application did not
believe it was a close call.

Is that accurate?

A

Yes, that is accurate.

Q

Okay.

And I also believe you said that even without the

Christopher Steele dossier, that line attorney believed that there
was probable cause to support the Page FISA application.

Is that

correct?
A

Yes, that's correct.

Q

And you share that opinion?

A

I think so.

probable cause.

Like I said, it's a close call.

It's

And so I think it would have -- the Steele

dossier -- the Steele reporting made it clear to me.

I think we

would have gotten there on probable cause even without the Steele
reporting.
Q

Okay.

A

But I'm not sure.

It would have been a little

more -- teasing out more information.
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

 COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Q

Sure, sure.

199

And earlier today, I think we also

discussed how when the FBI's preparing FISA applications, they
don't necessarily indicate whether they believe a source is
biased, so much as provide additional facts that might speak to
the credibility of the source.
A

Is that fair?

So I think I was talking about when the FBI's

documenting the source, the file, that's when they don't talk
about whether someone's biased or not.

They just document the

facts to the file.
In a FISA application, there's like an assessment about the
credibility, and I would think that if there's -- we would explain
facts that support that assessment.
Q

Okay.

And then just to -- I'm jumping around a little

bit, but there was also some discussion about -- I believe you
said that there was a requirement for the FBI to provide any
exculpatory information that they did have in a FISA application.
Is that correct?
A

I believe I said that.

I can't point to a requirement.

I think we just have a duty to the court -Q

Okay.

A

-- because it's a Federal court.

Q

Sure.

In the case of the Carter Page FISA application,

are you aware of any exculpatory information that the FBI did not
provide to the FISA court?
A

No.
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COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Q

Okay.

So I'm going to introduce now an exhibit that is

Pages 15 through 17 of the Carter Page FISA application that was
released under the Freedom of Information Act and, thus, heavily
redacted.

And on Page 15, the first page of the exhibit, there's

a section entitled "Page's coordination with Russian government
officials on 2016 U.S. Presidential election influence
activities."
Okay.

And I'll give you a moment to review.
So on the first page of the exhibit, Page 15, there's

a sentence that reads, first according to information provided by
an FBI conventional human source, Source No. 1, and then comma,
and there's a footnote, Footnote 8.

And then on the bottom of the

page Footnote 8 begins, and I'll actually ask you to turn the page
to Page 16 where the footnote continues.

And one of the sentences

on that page reads, the FBI speculates that the identified U.S.
person was likely looking for information that could be used to
discredit Candidate 1's campaign.
So, Ms. Moyer, there have been allegations, and we've
discussed some of them today, that the FBI and the Department of
Justice may have abused the FISA process because they failed to
disclose a possible bias or political motivation from Christopher
Steele to the FISA court judges.

My question to you is, do you

believe that the FBI or Department of Justice abused the FISA
process because they did not provide more information to the
Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court on Christopher Steele in
Carter Page's FISA application?
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

 COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
A

No.

Q

And can you explain why?

A

So, I believe that this information in this footnote,

201

particularly the sentence you pointed out, highlights for the
court that this could have been opposition research, that that's
what the source was conducting.

And I don't think that -- I mean,

we use sources all the time in applications for FISAs, as well as
other affidavits, and we don't -- you know, as long as we fully
describe the source and what the source's reliability,
credibility, reasons, motivations, I think that we have accurately
informed the court.
Q

So that sentence that I read about, you know, likely

looking for information to discredit the candidate's campaign, you
believe that is sufficiently transparent to the FISA court?
A

I think so, yes.

Q

Okay.

And do you believe that the FISA court judges may

have overlooked this information because it was contained in a
footnote?
A

Oh, no.

Q

Okay.

A

That's where this information tends to be.

Q

Okay.

So FISA courts do tend to read footnotes?

So further down on the same page, Page 16, it

reads, notwithstanding Source No. 1's reason for conducting the
research into Candidate No. 1's ties to Russia, based on Source
No. 1's previous reporting history with the FBI, whereby Source 1
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COMMITTEE SENSITIVE

provided reliable information to the FBI, the FBI believes Source
1's reporting herein to be credible.

Ms. Moyer, do you agree with

that assessment?
A

Yes.

To the extent, I don't usually run sources, so I

can't say, you know -- I was not directly participating in the
source handling, but I believe that that sentence is accurate.
Q

So you have no reason to doubt that Christopher Steele

provided credible information to the FBI?
A

Correct.

Q

Okay.

A

Oh, that's it?

Thank you.

Mr. Pittard.

I think we're done.

If I could just say before we break, to

reiterate that Ms. Moyer is not a political official at the FBI,
she is not an SES person, she is a line person, and, therefore, we
would very much appreciate what I think the committee has
done -- or committees have done over the last couple days, which
is to keep her presence here out of the media.

You know, there

was some discussion earlier about her name getting released
inaccurately, you know, a couple months ago in this process.
was a -- that was a very unfortunate event.

That

And we would just

sort of reiterate our ask that the committees respect her privacy,
particularly given her role here, and that her name remain
confidential and not in the public sphere.
committees have done that today.

And I think the

I haven't been looking at the

news, but I certainly hope so.
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203

I appreciate that and would ask that that respect continue to
be shown to her.
Mr. Wellons.

If I may just add one point to that, despite

some mischaracterizations in some of the reporting, as you've
heard today, Ms. Moyer does work on intelligence investigations
and operations at the FBI.

Her role is very sensitive, and that's

one that the FBI takes very seriously.

So for that reason as

well, the FBI would just remind the committee of exactly what it
stated at the outset, its perspective on the confidentiality of
these hearings is, and we would just ask the committee to abide by
its own policies.
Mr. Pittard.

Thank you.

[Whereupon, at 4:35 p.m., the interview was concluded.]

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Certificate of Deponent/Interviewee

I have read the foregoing ____ pages, which contain the correct
transcript of the answers made by me to the questions therein
recorded.

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