1 NYS DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS AND COMMUNITY SUPERVISION 2 BOARD OF PAROLE 3 ********************************************************* 4 Parole Board Interview 5 In the Matter 6 -of- 7 Judith Clark 8 DIN # NYSID # 9 ********************************************************* 10 TYPE OF INTERVIEW: Reappearance LOCATION: Bedford Hills Correctional Facility Video-conferenced to NYS DOCCS 314 West 40th Street New York, New York 10018 INTERVIEW DATE: DECISION DATE: April 3, 2019 April 17, 2019 BEFORE: Commissioner W. William Smith, Jr. Commissioner Ellen E. Alexander Commissioner Tana Agostini ALSO PRESENT: Jean Marie Baumann, SORC Nadine Lancaster, PA PRESENT AT FACILITY: Joseph Greenfield, SORC Andrea Williams, ORC Marc King, ASAT Counselor COURT REPORTER: Anthony D'Ambrosio, CSR 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 2 1 BY COMMISSIONER T. AGOSTINI: 2 Q. Good afternoon. 3 A. Good afternoon. 4 Q. Your name, for the record, please? 5 A. Judith Clark. 6 Q. Ms. Clark, my name is Commissioner Agostini, and I'm 7 joined this afternoon by Commissioner Smith, who is in 8 the center. 9 10 COMMISSIONER W. SMITH: Good afternoon. 11 INMATE: Good afternoon. 12 Q. And Commissioner Alexander next to him. 13 COMMISSIONER E. ALEXANDER: 14 INMATE: Hello. Good afternoon. 15 Q. Okay. This is the first time that we are meeting 16 with you as a Panel. 17 for you, as you know. 18 opportunity. 19 that has been covered in your appearance in 2017; we may 20 also have some new questions. 21 a lot of material that we've received, you probably can't 22 see, but we have many notebooks here that we've received 23 from your attorney. 24 a variety of packets and corrected packets that we each 25 have and have gone through. This is a reappearance interview This is a new day, a new We will go over much of the same ground We have been going through I have three large binders. We have Transcripts from your last Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 3 1 interview, which is very thorough, we each read them in 2 their entirety. 3 parties in support. 4 parties in opposition. 5 So, there's much here to go over today. 6 I'd like to start off now is talking about the last two 7 years since your last appearance. 8 A. Great. 9 Q. And I'd like to ask you to tell us what you have been Numerous submissions from various Numerous submissions from various And a lot of other documents. I think the way 10 doing in these last two years, what you would like us to 11 know about you, who you are today, and what has 12 transpired since the Board of Parole last met with you? 13 A. I think that, in some ways, oddly enough, they were 14 the hardest two years I've ever done. 15 before then, I was just facing the fact that I had a 16 lifelong sentence and I had to sort of live this as my 17 life, and then the hope of getting out raises all types 18 of new feelings that were much more alive in me in the 19 last two years. 20 tried to do, to kind of deal with that, all those 21 feelings, for me, was to keep myself focused on the key 22 issues that were raised at the board the last time and 23 that are my key issues, which is the seriousness of my 24 crime, the suffering of the victims, and any kind of 25 reparative work I could do. In the sense that, I think that one of the things that I One of the things that was Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 4 1 said in the decision last time, was that I needed to 2 continue to express remorse and that I needed to continue 3 to promote nonviolence, and to continue to try to reach 4 out, in any ways that I could, to express my remorse for 5 the crime. 6 that that led to, was finding out that there is 7 something, that we didn't know about here, called the 8 Apology Bank, which is set up from DOCCS, and I found 9 that out actually quite recently. So, I took that to heart. One of the things And so, I wrote a 10 letter, and I have written a lot of letters to many many 11 people about my crime and apologizing for my crime, 12 including individuals within the 13 I think that the way I approached this letter was as 14 though each of the people who have lost their husbands 15 and lost their fathers, or who themselves were maimed and 16 terrorized that day, was sitting in front of me as I 17 wrote the letter. 18 my own sense of regret and remorse, and my own feelings 19 of having to keep that front and center whenever -- you 20 know, I may be fighting to get out of prison, but it has 21 to be in the context of really being rooted in that 22 reality. 23 I always do, I guess for the many many years in here, is 24 to take the remorse and use it to change my relationship, 25 in particular, to law enforcement. community, but And it brought back the intensity of And the other thing I did a lot was, to try, as And sometimes what Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 5 1 that means is, is how I am in the prison and my 2 relationship to staff in this prison and a sense of the 3 difficulties that officers face, that staff in here face, 4 that the women face; often times the way that they take 5 it out on staff, and I continued -- I work with the 6 nursery mothers, but I keep trying to talk to people and 7 myself about putting front and center, taking our own 8 responsibility and not taking it out on others, on each 9 other or on staff, and putting myself out to staff in 10 that kind of way. And the other way that I think I most 11 directly tried to address the issue for the harm I did to 12 law enforcement, was through the work I do in Puppies 13 Behind Bars. 14 our dogs to, to include First Responders. 15 May we had our first, what's called team training, which 16 is where the group of people who are going to get the 17 dogs come into the prison and we work with them for two 18 weeks. 19 was what's called the emcee, which kind of leads, I'm the 20 person who leads the process, and it was a team training 21 that included two retired policemen. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. And so, it felt very personal to -- I spent two weeks 24 with two people who faced the enormous scars and wounds, 25 not just from their experience at the World Trade Center, We expanded -- we expanded who we're giving And so, last And in that team -- and in that team training, I Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 6 1 but also through their years in law enforcement. And we 2 try, in that process, to really allow people the space to 3 talk, and they were amazing. 4 they shared with us their experience and their feelings, 5 their experience. 6 situation where his partner was killed, and I remember 7 going back to my unit that night and just weeping, 8 because, you know, it was -- it was hearing the voice of 9 my own victims. They were in a prison and One of them talked about surviving a And I tried to, as I often do in many 10 situations where I'm with law enforcement, be clear about 11 my own enormous remorse and regret for what I did, and my 12 respect for them. 13 myself over these two years. 14 to build support, to reach out, to build support so that 15 some of the other concerns that were addressed by the 16 Board, which included the fact that there is a lot of 17 opposition. 18 greeting people who work within the criminal justice 19 system to try to see what they had to say about what they 20 felt I could do, and to talk to them about my own 21 feelings about the crime. 22 Q. Okay. 23 in all of the areas that you just talked about. 24 receive a copy of the apology letter that you wrote in 25 the last two years. So, that's how I've tried to carry And to -- and to continue So, I spent a lot of time meeting and And I'm glad that you have been very proactive We did You're not the first person to tell Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 7 1 me that they were unaware of the Apology Bank. I'm glad 2 to think that the women at Bedford Hills are now aware of 3 the Apology Bank and the opportunity that it offers. 4 A. I actually went to the Superintendent about it, 5 because she hadn't been aware either, and I spoke to my 6 counselor, and I hope that we can do more here so that 7 everyone really is aware of it. 8 important vehicle for us. 9 Q. Well, I agree, it most definitely is an important I think it's an 10 vehicle. But I had noticed that it was not the first 11 time that you had apologized. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. I think I read an article of apology and remorse that 14 you wrote, I believe it was about 1994, was the first 15 one. 16 A. Yes, yes. 17 Q. Another one that you had written to, it might have 18 been the Poughkeepsie Journal in -- 19 A. It was the Rockland Journal News. 20 Q. Rockland Journal News in 2002. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And there's been other statements that you have 23 prepared, sometimes public, sometimes not public. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Over the years, and I think that those are important, Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 8 1 we have those in the record as well, and was encouraged 2 that you had begun that process to express remorse 3 publicly a long time ago, beginning in the '90s, and not 4 just in these past couple of years. 5 A. Absolutely. 6 to me both to be public about it, but also to try to use 7 avenues that are legitimate in ways that are not so 8 public, so that it doesn't feel like it's just me as a 9 mouthpiece, but me from my heart speaking, as I feel Absolutely. I think it's been important 10 about it. 11 Q. Okay. 12 because there are so many documents that we've been 13 reading here, one particularly of many that made an 14 impression on me was your discussions with corrections 15 officers, conversations and dialogue that you had with 16 them, particularly in the time that you were in the 17 S.H.U. for about 24 months, approximately. 18 believe that the corrections officers in Bedford Hills do 19 reflect a larger community of law enforcement, and so, 20 the opportunity -- I mean, one does not look as going to 21 prison as an opportunity. 22 A. But it is. 23 Q. But it is an opportunity. 24 A. It is, absolutely. 25 Q. Some people, such as yourself, take advantage of this In some of the documents I've been reading, But I do Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 9 1 opportunity, some do not. 2 A. Right. 3 Q. But I'm gathering, from the record and your efforts, 4 that you have built relationships, not only with security 5 staff at the facility, but with administration as well, 6 some characterize as authority figures. 7 A. I think in the last two years, one of the things that 8 has been interesting, is that many officers have known me 9 for years and years, and so they wanted to talk to me 10 both before I went to the board last time and then this 11 last period, and I probably have had -- I've had so many 12 conversations with officers, many of whom are often times 13 older than my peers, so they can remember, you know, at 14 least the times, if not the crime, and many of them have, 15 you know -- I try to make myself -- I try to make myself 16 open to them, to ask whatever questions they have, and 17 it's been important for me to have those conversations 18 with them, because, as you say, they are part of law 19 enforcement. 20 perspective and they know me, many of them have known me 21 for many many years, and we get to talk about that, too. 22 Q. Okay. 23 interviews asking how old someone is, and I did not ask 24 you how old you are today. 25 A. I'm 69. And also because they bring a particular Well, I'm glad to hear that. I often start my Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 Okay. NYSID# 10 1 Q. 69 today. And how old were you when you came 2 to the department? 3 A. I was just a month shy of 32 when I committed my 4 crime, and I was two months shy of 34 when I got to 5 Bedford. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And the length of time served now, I believe, is 9 approaching 38 years. So, 31 at the time of the offense, and 33. 10 A. 38 years, yes. 11 Q. Okay. 12 years, unless we have any questions in these last couple 13 of years that my colleagues would like to ask at this 14 time. And I'm going to move on from these last two 15 16 BY COMMISSIONER W. SMITH: 17 Q. I do have just a couple of questions. 18 Commissioner Smith. 19 A. Good afternoon. 20 Q. We get a lot -- we get a lot of information. 21 the nice things about the case is we've known that we had 22 to review -- there's a tremendous amount of documents 23 that the department has generated, your attorneys, who I 24 think have done a fine job to help generate it, and we've 25 had an opportunity to spend time, hours, maybe days This is Good afternoon. One of Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 11 1 taking a look at some of the items. I just want to make 2 sure that I'm aware, we get updated listings of what 3 you've been doing. 4 involvement, but you've also been, it looks like 5 recently, an administrative clerk and you've been working 6 as a clerk typist with the -- in the nursery mothers 7 program, is that right? 8 A. Yes. 9 think I'm a clerk, because that's what they call it, but, You mentioned the Puppies Behind Bars I'm not sure it's called a clerk typist. I 10 basically, my job in the nursery is kind of an in-house 11 elder mentor. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. And also a facilitator of groups in the parenting 14 center and with the nursery mothers. 15 Q. Okay. 16 clerk comma typist, so not that -- I don't know if you 17 can type, I can't, I'm about 17 words a minute. 18 says I'll never get another job, so -- and I hope that's 19 true. 20 A. Yes, yes. 21 Q. I just wanted to make sure, like, I was aware of 22 that. 23 A. Yes, yes, I am. 24 Q. I know you had talked in the prior -- the prior 25 appearance, and we've had a chance to review it, I think Not that you're typing, it actually lists My wife So, you're working with the nursery mothers? Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 12 1 it's 198 pages, talked about one of the individuals, or 2 individuals who would assist in the birth, sort of like a 3 midwife, only it's called, what, a Doula? 4 A. Doula. 5 Q. A Doula, D-o-u-l-a? 6 A. Yes, yes. 7 Q. So, I know you were involved in that previously. 8 you doing any of that at this point, or no? 9 A. Yes, I continue to do that. Are The way that we do it 10 here is -- the job of the Doula is to take care of the 11 mother, so the mother can take care of the baby, 12 especially in the immediate postpartum period. 13 that's -- that's when I spend a lot of time with the 14 women, because many things have come up to them in that 15 period, and I also just try to work with them in terms of 16 feeding the baby, care and feeding of the baby, and keep 17 them focused in a difficult situation for them. 18 19 COMMISSIONER W. SMITH: Thank you. COMMISSIONER T. AGOSTINI: Commissioner. 22 23 Thank you, Commissioner Alexander? COMMISSIONER E. ALEXANDER: No questions. 24 25 Very good. Thank you, Commissioner. 20 21 And so COMMISSIONER T. AGOSTINI: time. All right. Thank you. At this Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 13 1 2 BY COMMISSIONER T. AGOSTINI: 3 Q. Now, Ms. Clark, I wanted to ask you about your 4 earlier years in 5 criminal history. 6 childhood in the transcript and in the file, so I'm not 7 intending to cover every bit of ground. 8 A. That's fine. 9 Q. That is in the record already. 10 and the beginning of your I read a great deal about your But in you went to -- you grew up in New York and went to college in 11 is that right? 12 A. Yes, I did. 13 Q. And in 1969 you had some charges and convictions that 14 resulted in three years of probation, nine months in the 15 county jail. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And these included Aggravated Battery, Aiding Escape, 18 Mob Action, Resisting Arrest, and Aggravated Battery as 19 well. 20 relate to above or do not have an actual disposition, but 21 can you tell us what was going on with you at that time, 22 in 1969, 1970, in your life in Chicago? 23 A. All right. 24 go to the 25 and 1968 was kind of the beginning of a lot of the There's some other arrest charges, and they all When I first moved to it was to , and I got there in 1967; Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 14 1 student sit-ins, both in New York and in , and I 2 participated in a sit-in in the very beginning of 1969, 3 for which I got expelled. 4 member of SDS, Students for Democratic Society, and my 5 parents tried very hard to convince me to find a new 6 school to go back to, but I was swept up in the 7 revolutionary fervor and rhetoric that was kind of taking 8 over SDS at the time, a particular portion of SDS called 9 Weatherman, which, at that point, was not -- it was, you And at that point, I was a 10 know, aboveground, but it was part of SDS, which was, you 11 know, urging us to become full-time revolutionaries, as 12 we called it. 13 and we organized a series of demonstrations. 14 very -- if we didn't -- if we didn't -- we didn't exactly 15 go out to harm anyone, but we certainly went out with the 16 idea of destroying property or being rabble-rousers, 17 stopping -- stopping traffic, disturbing the peace in 18 pretty offensive ways, I would say, and that's where 19 those arrests came from. 20 demonstrations at the end of 1969. 21 Q. Did you say that collective was the Weathermen or 22 that collective was the SDS? 23 A. It was -- well, at the time, Weatherman was SDS. 24 Weatherman kind of took over SDS and turned it from a 25 very large broad organization into a much smaller, what And so I joined the collective, I was 19, We were It was a series of Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 15 1 we called cadre organization, where we lived, like 11 2 people all lived in one apartment together and we got up 3 every morning, we exercised. 4 militaristic sort of state of organization I would say, 5 and very -- I had a broad range of friends and people 6 that I had been part, you know, close to over the years 7 and I really stopped relating to everyone except the 8 people in that group, and it created kind of a cult like 9 mindset for me, I would say. It was a very intensely 10 Q. That was definitely the word I had been thinking of 11 as I was reading through the evolution of the Weathermen 12 over the years. 13 not the language or intent at that time, but as somebody 14 reading and learning of it, it does strike me very much 15 as a cult. 16 A. It was very much like that. 17 Q. With the same sort of commitment and loyalty. 18 A. And sort of hierarchy and criticism, self-criticism, 19 yes. 20 Q. All right. 21 era that the Democratic National Convention is in 22 And I, you know, imagine that that was Question out of left field: was that '68 or '72? 23 A. That was in '68. 24 Q. It was '68? 25 A. '68, yes. Was this the Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 16 1 Q. Okay. So, I'm just envisioning the era in which you 2 were in college. 3 convention in its day, and that was the environment as a 4 teenager, as a student in your formative years. 5 A. Absolutely, yes. 6 Q. Okay. 7 your probation in New York via -- or 8 telephone from New York, right? 9 A. Yes. I think that was a pretty famous And you left college with this record, you did via And actually -- so, I left college and was in 10 the collective in '69, and I was -- it actually wasn't 11 until 1970 that I went back for these charges, and that's 12 when I did my nine months in Cook County Jail, and then 13 moved back to 14 Q. At the end of those nine months, you returned -- 15 A. To 16 Q. -- to 17 that time? 18 A. I was living with my parents for probably, it's hard 19 to remember, but up to, maybe close to a year, I was 20 living with my parents. 21 Q. Okay. 22 extradite you, to get you back to 23 A. Yes, yes, so I went, but, you know, I split on my 24 bond originally and -- 25 Q. You absconded. . Were you living with your parents at We had to -- or the state of Illinois had to Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 1 A. -- I was called underground. 2 Q. We call that absconding. 3 A. I'm sorry. 4 Q. We call that absconding, you fled. 5 A. Absconded, yes. 6 Thank you. 17 And I was arrested in , and they extradited me back to 7 the time, yes. 8 Q. Okay. 9 record. Thank you. at I wanted to clarify that, for the 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. So, in New York, you're from the 12 it? 13 A. That's where I sort of ended up. 14 back to New York, I lived with my parents in 15 and then I moved to 16 . , is When I first came and eventually to the 17 Q. Okay. And did you enroll in college once you were in 18 New York at that time? 19 A. No, I didn't. 20 school. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. I think my mindset was that -- I think my mindset 23 was, oh, I should just -- that college was a privilege 24 that I shouldn't afford myself. 25 mindset. I worked. I never went back to It's a pretty stupid I can't imagine having that mindset. It's, of Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 18 1 course, the road to liberation, but it was my mindset at 2 the time, so I didn't go back to school. 3 Q. Okay. 4 Weathermen in New York and got yourself -- and continued 5 your involvement with the organization, is that right? 6 A. I was -- I was -- I was acquainted with people 7 that -- some of them had a history with Weatherman and 8 some had other histories, but we formed an organization 9 called May 19th Communist Organization, and it very much 10 had similar politics and also a way of organizing itself 11 that was very very insulated, and unlike in the earlier 12 period when you had lots and lots of people involved in 13 the Movement, we're now moving into, you know, the mid 14 '70s and late '70s, when most people were just trying to 15 settle down, and we were saying, oh, no, we shouldn't 16 settle down, we still have to make a revolution. 17 Q. It seems to me you were ramping up. 18 A. Absolutely. 19 showing in my rhetoric and ultimately in my actions. 20 was ramping up, yes. 21 Q. Okay. 22 those 10, 11 years back in New York, describe what your 23 activities were with the organizations that you were in, 24 because you clearly did move from the May 19th 25 organization into the Weatherman organization and But you were acquainted with members of the I think that -- that certainly was I So, in that decade between 1970, 1981, in Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 19 1 eventually joined forces for the instant offense, but 2 describe your activities during that decade? 3 A. I -- I actually -- I kind of was split into many many 4 many aspects. 5 a number of challenges to -- I actually did prison work 6 back then, it was after the Attica rebellion, and I was 7 involved in some of the defense work there. 8 a newspaper called The Midnight Special, which was also a 9 vehicle for prisoners. So, some of what I did was, I did work on I worked on And I also worked -- I supported 10 a number of different people who were associated with the 11 Black Liberation Army and other armed groups who got 12 arrested. 13 and I would raise bail, and I was a vehement supporter of 14 those forces. 15 of which had the rhetoric that supported armed activity 16 and illegal activity. 17 Q. When did your support cross over the line from legal 18 activity into illegal activity? 19 A. Mostly, actually, I think before then. 20 most I had ever done was, like I wasn't involved in the 21 actual illegal activity. 22 would say, oh, can you go visit someone in prison because 23 we need to get a message to them, or can you tell them to 24 do something, you know, so I was visiting people in 25 prison. I would support them when they went to court, All of which was legal activity, but all Probably the I was someone who like people So, I was connected to a sense of the illegal Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 20 1 activity, but I wasn't myself involved in it. I was 2 doing the public work, supporting the illegal activity. 3 Q. What was the illegal activity that was going on 4 around you that you, yourself, were not yet involved in? 5 A. I think that there was a sense that -- that people 6 were building, like both in the Puerto Rican Movement and 7 in the Black Movement, there was -- well, I mean, from 8 the Puerto Rican Movement there were bombings going on at 9 the time, from the Black Movement there was the building 10 of that Black Liberation Army, and while I wasn't 11 involved in it, I was a spokesperson that any time anyone 12 got arrested, to say, you know, we have to support them, 13 they have a legitimate right. 14 very much a front person to argue that, that it was 15 legitimate to do this, and that we should support them in 16 any way we can. 17 people to court, we should justify what they're doing. 18 Q. Okay. 19 said, bombings, there were acts of violence that were 20 going on at that time. 21 A. Right. 22 Q. So, it should -- it would seem to me that would have 23 been an inevitability that you were going to cross that 24 line, that there would come an opportunity for you to be 25 more than a spokesperson, a visitor, a vehement So, I was rhetorically We should raise bail, we should bring And there were people -- there were, as you Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 21 1 supporter, to being a person who takes part in a violent 2 act, such as you did in 1981. 3 A. One of the things that I had to look at is that I, 4 you know, I was in groups with people who had the same 5 rhetoric I did and did the same public activities, but 6 would not have allowed themselves to cross that line. 7 Not necessarily because they thought it was wrong, but 8 because they thought they didn't want to put themselves 9 at risk, and I think that I -- I wasn't -- to the extent 10 that I had any fear, I wasn't willing to respect the fear 11 or have that fear to make me question anything. 12 like other people had much better boundaries than I did, 13 I guess is what I would say. 14 well, if I say this, then I have to be willing to do 15 this, I guess is what I would say. 16 Q. It seems like you had no boundaries. 17 only thing that bounded you is when the law got you. 18 A. I think that's true. 19 Q. And when I think about 1981, I think about the No 20 Nukes March, I think Ronald Reagan was president, John 21 Lennon had been killed, which is a far cry from Chicago 22 in the 1960s, and Vietnam, and the various other things 23 that were going on in that era. 24 colleagues were still in a mentality of fighting a war 25 that was not here. I feel So, I was someone who said, I mean, the I think that's true, yes. And yet, you and your Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 22 1 A. Right, right, I thought there was this war going on 2 and -- it's crazy. 3 I just, you know, there was nothing in the world going on 4 around us that could justify thinking that, and in that 5 sense, that way of being so, you know, in my own, you 6 know, in our own mindset, where, you know, and I parodied 7 that and I believed it. 8 this, Judy. 9 wasn't -- I didn't let anything -- the reality of the You know, when I look back on it and It wasn't just like, you say I believed it, I totally couldn't -- I 10 world intervene with that way of thinking. 11 Q. Right. 12 in the last interview as a zealot. 13 A. Absolutely, in that sense of unthinkingness, you 14 know, just being moved by my feelings in a way. 15 Q. And so, the plan to rob the Brinks armored truck came 16 to you from whom? 17 A. A man named -- I knew him as 18 actually remember his other name. 19 transcript from the last time, but I knew him as 20 and he was someone that I knew from having been around a 21 black acupuncture program up in 22 Q. Is this 23 A. No, no. 24 to me at my age, I have to confess, names keep going out 25 of my head, but at the time I knew him as And I've read that you referred to yourself I cannot I know it's in the -- oh, my. This is happening but I Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 23 1 know that when I used that name in the board, they did 2 give me the real name. 3 Q. Okay. I have the prior transcript here, 4 is . 5 A. Yes, yes. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. So, he's the person that came to me and said that 8 they were planning to do a robbery of a Brinks truck and 9 that the way they did -- what they did was, they had a 10 group of black men commit the robbery and a group of 11 white people be the getaway drivers, and they needed me. 12 Q. And was a member of the Weatherman? 13 A. No. He was connected to the Black Liberation Army. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. I'm not sure the Weathermen, per se, existed. 16 mean, I know that they say that the crime was committed 17 by a combination of the Weathermen and the Black 18 Liberation Army, I think that's because those of us who 19 got arrested had that history of the Weathermen, but we 20 weren't really, you know, we were operating differently 21 by then, we were not, you know, but he himself was part 22 of the Black Liberation Army, or connected to the Black 23 Liberation Army. 24 Q. Okay. 25 knowledge, who had also approached other members who had I And so, was he the person, to the best of your Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 24 1 been part of the Weatherman as well to -- 2 A. I didn't know -- I actually didn't know who that 3 would be, because the way that they operated, in a very 4 sort of militaristic way, was each -- each person was 5 dealt with as an individual and only knew what was going 6 on between you and your individual. 7 person who approached other people, I actually don't know 8 if that's true, but he's the one that approached me. 9 Q. Okay. Fair enough. 10 11 the And so -- COMMISSIONER E. ALEXANDER: Can I ask a question? 12 13 So, was COMMISSIONER T. AGOSTINI: Sure. Commissioner Alexander. 14 15 BY COMMISSIONER E. ALEXANDER: 16 Q. When did he approach you? 17 A. Probably two days before the actual robbery. 18 Q. Only two days before. 19 questions did you ask? 20 A. I mean, I was sort of surprised, but I didn't ask, 21 but my sense was like maybe something had happened that 22 all of a sudden they needed someone. 23 that. 24 backup, you know, and I asked almost no questions, to be 25 honest. And did you -- did you -- what It was kind of like It was like, we just need you to be a backup to a I think I said, well, you know, I don't know, Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 25 1 you know, I don't know anything about that kind of 2 situation. 3 we'll go up there, I'll show you where you need to be, 4 don't worry, you just have to be a backup, we just need 5 you there as a backup. 6 Q. So, did you go up with him before October 20th? 7 A. I made one drive up with him. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. And he just showed me a parking lot where I was going And he said, well, I'll show you, you know, 10 to keep -- where I was going to be with my car. 11 Q. He took you to the parking lot by the 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. And he said, you know, down there is where the 15 robbery will be, and then you're going to see a -- a van 16 driving away and follow the van. 17 Q. So, you would -- you would drive the same car from 18 New York up to Rockland County? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And wait in the parking lot? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And then you were told to follow a van? 23 A. The van, yes. 24 Q. A U-Haul van or a red van? 25 A. A red ran. Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 26 1 Q. A red van. And you would just follow them, because 2 there was no GPS, so -- 3 A. No, absolutely. 4 they called a switch up point, and then follow them from 5 the switch up point. 6 Q. Okay. 7 he say why they wanted to rob the Brinks truck? 8 A. I think that -- I can't remember what he said and 9 what I thought separately, which was, you know, that So, I would follow the van to what And so, when he told you about this crime, did 10 these -- that these robberies, you know, that this was 11 for -- to get money for the struggle, you know, that 12 there were people in desperate situations that were 13 underground and trying to build an underground and they 14 needed money, and so this is what it was for. 15 Q. And you were to drive there alone? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did he get you the car? 18 A. No, I borrowed the car from a friend. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Or get a car? 22 A. Yes, right, and I did. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. No. 25 Q. The record is a little unclear. So, he asked you to borrow a car? And you brought nothing with you? Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 27 1 A. I understand that. 2 Q. So, what did you bring with you that morning, or that 3 afternoon? 4 A. I brought myself. 5 remember what kind, but a purse with me. 6 thinking, you know, I had my own ID, because I didn't 7 have any other ID, so I was certainly hoping that I would 8 never get stopped. 9 had with me. I did have some kind of, I can't I remember I don't remember anything else that I 10 Q. Okay. You know, it does sound a little unbelievable 11 that someone would simply, living in New York, would 12 drive up to Rockland County with an individual the day 13 before this, the day before or two days before. 14 A. Two days before. 15 Q. Not having -- did you bring a map? 16 A. I'm sure there was a map in the car, but it does 17 sound unbelievable, it's crazy, but it's -- all I can say 18 is, this sense of like, well, they're in charge and I'm 19 just going to do this thing of being -- and they kept on 20 saying, you're going to be the backup there. 21 well, what's going to happen. 22 goes well, nothing is going to happen, we're not going to 23 even -- there's another getaway that we'll be in, but we 24 just need to know that there's a backup in case we need 25 that. I said, They said, well, if all So, if you just follow us when we leave, we'll Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 28 1 come in and we'll get out. So, in that sense, like, you 2 know, once after the shoot-out -- so, that's really how 3 it happened. 4 that -- I felt like they were in charge and they knew 5 what they were doing. 6 Q. Okay. 7 just trying to understand what happened beforehand. 8 A. Right. 9 Q. So, I think you said that you knew you were a backup. I didn't -- I didn't think about the fact So, I don't want to get into the crime, I'm 10 So, did you know there was another getaway, quote, 11 unquote, getaway driver, is that what you meant? 12 A. I assumed there was, yes, I assumed there was. 13 didn't know who, but I assumed there was. 14 Q. He didn't tell you? 15 A. He said that they needed -- he said we just need to 16 have you as a backup, because we would like to have a 17 backup in case anything goes on, but the idea -- as far 18 as I knew, when I went to the switch up point, I didn't 19 think that anyone was particularly going to get into my 20 car. 21 sense, I knew that there was other getaway drivers, yes. 22 Q. Okay. 23 ahead of time and then we'll get into the crime. 24 A. I knew there were going to be other getaway drivers, 25 or driver, I definitely knew that. I was just going to follow along. I So, in that I'm just trying to understand what you knew Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 29 1 Q. Okay. And did you know that other people would be 2 armed and would have, you know, vests and -- did you know 3 that? 4 A. I knew they were going to be armed, yes. 5 it was an armed robbery, I did. 6 7 COMMISSIONER E. ALEXANDER: COMMISSIONER W. SMITH: question. I just had a In the last appearance you talked about 10 this 11 kind of a separate incident. 12 Okay. Thank you. 8 9 I knew that having been shot and killed in some INMATE: What was that? I think that in the days 13 after the crime, they were piecing together, police 14 were piecing together what happened, and I think 15 that he was apprehended with someone else, I can't 16 remember who it was, and I assume that it was a 17 shoot-out, but he was shot at that time. 18 19 COMMISSIONER W. SMITH: So, it was in relation to this investigation? 20 INMATE: 21 COMMISSIONER W. SMITH: 22 Okay. Yes, yes. Thank you. No other questions. 23 24 BY COMMISSIONER T. AGOSTINI: 25 Q. Thank you, Commissioner Smith. So, Ms. Clark, it's Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 30 1 1981, has come to you two days, we believe -- you 2 believe, prior to the event, you hop in his car with him 3 and go up to Rockland County that same day. 4 A. Yes, either that day or -- yes, I mean, either -- 5 yes, I think it was probably that day. 6 a day later, but I don't think it was the day right 7 before this, is the only reason why I think it was that 8 day, yes. 9 Q. Okay. It may have been And then you acquire a vehicle the next day? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now, were you armed? 12 A. No. 13 Q. But, you had said a moment ago that you knew others 14 would be armed. 15 A. Yes. 16 doing the robbery, it was an armed robbery and they were 17 armed, and I was a, you know, a white person who wouldn't 18 be seen as -- as suspicious, because of who was actually 19 doing it. And so, my role didn't include being armed. 20 Q. Okay. But clearly you were perfectly okay with an 21 armed robbery taking place. 22 A. Yes, yes. 23 Q. Knowing that people could get hurt, as they did. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And the purpose of this was to expropriate funds for, The idea of it was that the people who were Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 31 1 explain it again, what it was for? 2 A. For building the Black Liberation Army and other, you 3 know, political activities. 4 the one hand I say I wasn't armed, and on the other hand 5 I would say I feel as responsible for it, because I 6 didn't go into it sort of saying, oh, I didn't know. 7 feel like I knew enough to have questioned everything, 8 like why do we need to -- why do we need to do armed 9 robberies, you know, what could happen if something -- But, I mean, that's why on I 10 when he kept saying we just need you as a backup, I could 11 have said, well, what happens if something happens, could 12 someone get hurt, you know, how do people feel about 13 that. 14 back that I should have had that I didn't. 15 Q. Right. 16 have had those questions. 17 A. Absolutely. 18 Q. -- in part because you weren't interested in the 19 answers. 20 A. I think I didn't want to ask them because I didn't 21 want to appear -- I think all I thought about, which is 22 awful to realize, but all I thought about was, do I 23 appear to be stand up, do I appear to be strong in my 24 support and my willingness to do this, and that was the 25 only question I let myself ask, instead of: I mean, there are a thousand questions looking And clearly you were intelligent enough to You didn't ask them -- Why are we Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 32 1 doing this? Why should I do this? Don't you know I just 2 had a baby? I mean, a million questions that you don't 3 even get to the fact of, well, wait a second, you know, 4 what about if someone gets hurt. 5 Q. Right. 6 being fearless and being strong, being a tough person, 7 having a tough stance at that time. 8 and bravest people here, of course, were the officers who 9 responded to this invasion, basically. And I have read through your remarks about The most fearless 10 A. Absolutely. 11 Q. In their community and in their homes of the 12 various -- there were six other persons, besides 13 yourself, right, in the multiple vehicles. 14 people here, the real tough guys, were the ones who 15 responded. 16 A. Absolutely. 17 Q. Who worked in the community trying to keep everybody 18 safe. 19 A. Absolutely. 20 Q. Apparently from people like yourself and your 21 friends. 22 A. Absolutely. 23 about my stance. 24 know, to not ask the questions that I could have asked, 25 is a cowards way, not a fearless way. The bravest And, in fact, there was nothing fearless My stance was completely cowardly, you Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 33 1 Q. And so, there has been much said about a weapon that 2 was found in your vehicle under the driver's seat, was 3 it? 4 A. I know it was under the seat. 5 exactly they found it. 6 Q. It was under one of the seats. 7 I don't know where In the end, it was who was in the vehicle with you and another 8 co-defendant in the backseat. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. So, the persons had changed vehicles. So, you had 11 been alone in your vehicle -- 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. -- prior to the activity of the robbery itself and 14 the shoot-out. 15 the co-defendants entered your vehicle? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And when you were -- after you had crashed the 18 vehicle and were arrested, there was a weapon found, and 19 the ammunition for that weapon was in your handbag. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You have repeatedly stated that that was not your 22 weapon. 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Can you explain to us what your thoughts are on this 25 weapon, how is it that it is not your weapon? And then in the getaway portion, two of Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 34 1 A. All I can say is that when I started out that day, 2 there was no weapon in that car. 3 ended up there. 4 chaotic, as it got more chaotic as it went along, and my 5 own intense panic was greater and greater, and I only 6 became aware of it when -- once we were apprehended and 7 we were in the police station. 8 aware of it. 9 Q. Okay. I can't say how it I know that that day was incredibly That's when I became And at the time that the officers, Officer 10 and Sgt. were shot, they were shot 11 in the second scene, is that correct? 12 A. Correct, yes. 13 Q. And in the first scene, was Brinks guard 14 -- 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. -- was shot, and 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And 19 A. Yes, and I believe that Officer 20 injured. 21 Q. And at that time, in the first scene, in the first 22 instance of the shooting, where were you located? 23 A. I was in the back of the parking lot, sort of -- it 24 was up a hill, so I could see -- I could see the pathway 25 they would take out, and that's where I was. was injured. was injured as well. was also I'm bad Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 35 1 with distance. It felt like a pretty long distance away, 2 but I couldn't -- I had a visual. 3 Q. Okay. 4 so the questions I'm asking you I'm aware of your prior 5 answers and what has also been written, you know, 6 elsewhere in the history and the record here. 7 tell us now, what are your thoughts and feelings about 8 the men whose lives were lost so brutally, so painfully, 9 so unnecessarily? And I have read through this at great length, And so, 10 A. First of all, I just want to say that there is no 11 regret that -- no greater regret that I have in my life 12 that they lost their lives that day, and when I think 13 about them -- I learned a lot about them over the years, 14 and, you know, I think about them leaving their homes 15 that day and just expecting it to be a normal day in a 16 suburban community, and then having facing this 17 incredible onslaught that they could have nothing -- 18 no -- no way to prepare for, or no expectation, and I 19 think about both the -- the three men who lost their 20 lives that day, 21 and and And I also think about the trauma of those who 22 survived and were there that day, and what that's like as 23 well. 24 children, all of them had three children and all of them 25 were married, and that those children were terrorized And I think about the fact that all of them had Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 36 1 that day too, you know, that they had to know ultimately 2 that their fathers were attacked, and what did that mean 3 and what was going to happen, and how did they know that 4 the next day they were going to be okay, and how did they 5 know that their mothers were going to be okay. 6 also know that both of those officers didn't just take 7 care of their own children, that they both had extended 8 families, and that, you know, over the years I have heard 9 from -- I was visited by -- by a man who ultimately was a 10 And I corrections officer in the county jail, but he was -- 11 and he said 12 that he was -- he was the first black officer in that 13 community and that he took care of a lot a lot of 14 youngsters and was their father figure. 15 like the -- just the horror of imagining that everything 16 I've just said about them, or about them as people, and 17 it took me a long time to just recognize they were 18 people, you know, people who were living these lives that 19 were difficult and courageous, and that they -- that 20 their lives were cut off, and that so many other people's 21 lives were completely affected by that. 22 ashamed, and it still hurts to talk about it, and I can 23 go through this kind of, you know, description of the day 24 over and over again, but in the end, that's what I think 25 about, is that they didn't survive and I did. So, I just feel And I feel And I Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 37 1 would continue to say, as I always have, that I'll hold 2 that with me no matter what happens in my life here, out 3 there, as well as the desire to, you know, extend myself, 4 in any way that is meaningful, to any of the survivors 5 and families. 6 Q. And I appreciate those remarks. 7 When I think about as you just pointed out, was the 8 first African American officer in his community there, he 9 strikes me as a real revolutionary, as a very brave man 10 who created change with nonviolence as a great power of 11 example. 12 A. Absolutely. 13 Q. To his children, to the community, to his colleagues, 14 and the public. 15 A. Absolutely. 16 came to me in the days after I was arrested and he 17 screamed at me. 18 call yourself a revolutionary, supporting black 19 revolution, and you kill a black man. 20 revolution. 21 hear him at the time. 22 could really take that in and realize the truth of what 23 he said, but I live with it always, not just on this day 24 that I speak to you about it. 25 Q. Okay. And my father was the first person, he And one of the things he said is, you You call that a I mean, he was -- and it was unbearable to It took me a long time before I Let me pause for a moment and check with my Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 38 1 colleagues, if they have questions that they would like 2 to ask you at this time. 3 4 BY COMMISSIONER W. SMITH: 5 Q. I have just a couple of brief questions. 6 about this 7 investigation to try to solve this, he was -- he was 8 involved in some sort of shoot-out with I think another 9 individual too, right? he was, in a matter of the 10 A. Yes, yes. 11 Q. Who was that? 12 A. I think he was arrested with a man named 13 You talked . 14 Q. Okay. And the -- that was one of the co-defendants 15 that you had. 16 right? 17 A. Yes, and he was originally a co-defendant. 18 ended up being part of the federal case. 19 Q. or 20 A. right. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. His case was -- he was charged under the -- the case 23 was split into two cases, the state case and the federal 24 case, and he was charged in the federal case. 25 Q. Right. is actually His case And that shoot-out happened later, some -- Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 39 1 some period of time. About how long after? 2 A. I think two or three days after. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Or maybe a week, but very much in the aftermath. 5 Q. Right. 6 cooperating with the federal authorities, right? 7 A. No, I hadn't been. 8 Q. So, because of that, you weren't -- you weren't 9 helpful in them necessarily being able to resolve the Now, you had not -- you had not been 10 situation with both of those individuals, led to a death, 11 be it another individual with you, and -- and -- and huge 12 danger to a, you know, to any -- any force that was 13 trying to do it. 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. So, I mean, your silence and unwillingness to what -- 16 even if -- even if you didn't think it was going to blow 17 up as bad as it did, created more difficulties. 18 A. Right, yes. 19 Q. I know, you know, at 19, you know, I'm aware of a lot 20 of what happened in the '60s and '70s, at 19 -- we even 21 deal with homicides, individuals that are under 18, by 22 law we have to deal with them different. 23 not fully developed, they're irrational, they don't think 24 about what maybe the consequences are, you know, you 25 have -- you have the arrest and you have the -- the The brain is Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 40 1 bringing back to New York State at 21, I mean, at that 2 point you can be, at 21, if you want to be a change 3 agent, you can be -- I think you can be a New York State 4 Senator, you can be a -- you can be a New York State 5 Assembly person, you can be whatever. 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. There's a number of things. 8 you have, further on, you know, this had happened when 9 you say when you were 31. Then you have -- then I mean, at 30 years old -- the 10 other thing that's kind of amazing, by '81, it's a lot 11 different than '69, that was mentioned before. 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. I mean, I can tell you things I did in the mid '70s, 14 growing up in an inner city, being very close with 15 individuals who were minorities that I played sports 16 with. 17 civil disobedience at my high school and -- but, you know 18 what, by '81, it was gone, I mean, that stuff was gone. 19 A. Right. 20 Q. My ping pong ball wasn't going to come up for me to 21 have to go to Vietnam, well, it came up, but it wasn't 22 low enough. 23 Governor of this great state, I mean, you can, it's not 24 even -- you're not a child. 25 well developed, I mean, and even after that, I mean, I Some even -- I -- I can remember a little bit of You know, at 30 or 31, you can be the Your brain has been pretty Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 41 1 know eventually we're going to talk a little bit about, 2 you know, just activities inside early, you know, some of 3 your change has been mentioned in S.H.U., but -- but, I 4 mean, you could have made a choice right then to stop the 5 pain that even happened to your own -- your own fellow 6 people. 7 A. Right. 8 Q. Why not? 9 A. I completely agree with what you're saying and have Why not? 10 many times sort of seen the moments when I could have 11 shifted, and in some ways, like before the crime, you 12 know, when I first got out of jail and came back to New 13 York, I did see myself as shifting in the sense that I 14 was trying to address some of the same issues, but in 15 legitimate ways. 16 things that we haven't -- I mean, when I tried to ask 17 myself that question, once I did finally relent, I said, 18 well, why couldn't I see any of this, why couldn't I see 19 it, and I think that -- two things that I do know, and 20 one is that, one, I was affected by my childhood 21 experience with my parents, who did go through a profound 22 change, which I didn't -- which somehow in my childhood 23 mind, I felt that they had given up on something, a dream 24 that was important. 25 I watched other people kind of get -- settle down and go But I think that, and this goes back to And so, I felt all along that while Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 42 1 do legitimate things, that I wasn't willing, that I was 2 special, I was one of those special people who wouldn't 3 give up the dream. 4 crazy in a way, but it was so deep in my way of thinking 5 that it meant that I couldn't -- I couldn't question 6 anything, because then maybe everything would fall apart. 7 And the other thing I would say is that I -- and I've 8 said it in my Affidavit many years ago, that I was, you 9 know, that I can't say, you know, I was youthful in this. And that sounds so crazy and it is 10 I was 30 years old, I was 31, but in a certain way I had 11 so much stayed involved in these very small insulated 12 groups, that I had never become an individual speaking as 13 an -- thinking about myself and thinking about my choices 14 as an individual, that I had given up my autonomy. 15 don't -- that's not an excuse, that's a choice. 16 watched friends of mine who said, I'm out of here, I'm 17 out of here, and I didn't, you know. 18 choice that I made each time, and I think that it meant 19 that ultimately, and I just said this to another woman 20 who was waiting for the board with me, I said, you know, 21 she was saying 35 feels old. 22 started to take on the responsibility of being an adult 23 when I was 35. 24 25 I've So, that's the I said, I feel like I COMMISSIONER W. SMITH: Thank you, Commissioner. And I Thank you. Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 43 1 2 BY COMMISSIONER T. AGOSTINI: 3 Q. Thank you, Commissioner. 4 that strikes me as a very accurate statement, because 5 while you were, you still are, but you were a very smart 6 woman in those years. 7 you struck me, honestly, as very immature. 8 A. Very immature. 9 Q. Extremely immature in those years at age 31. And I would have to say In reading through the material, 10 A. And not be, you know, be responsible for myself, and 11 just say, you know, what do I think or -- I always had to 12 feel like, you know, am I doing what the group expects of 13 me, and do I make other people do what the group -- and 14 that's a very very -- I mean, it allows me to talk to 15 young people in here who are in the same position, but it 16 definitely is how I felt about myself. 17 COMMISSIONER T. AGOSTINI: 18 We've been talking for one hour. 19 take a ten minute break. 20 the restroom. Okay. I would like to Some of us may need to use 21 INMATE: Sure. 22 COMMISSIONER T. AGOSTINI: Rest our 23 fingers for those who are transcribing and typing 24 this interview today. 25 INMATE: Absolutely. Judith Clark 1 DIN#83G0313 NYSID# COMMISSIONER T. AGOSTINI: 2 44 So, let's regroup in ten minutes, okay? 3 INMATE: 4 COMMISSIONER T. AGOSTINI: 5 INMATE: 6 (Whereupon, a short recess was then 7 Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. held, after which the following took place:) 8 9 BY COMMISSIONER T. AGOSTINI: 10 Q. All right. Good afternoon again. 11 A. Good afternoon. 12 Q. All right. 13 ready. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. 16 some questions, so I'd like to turn it over to her. We're going to reconvene, if you're Very good. And Commissioner Alexander had 17 18 BY COMMISSIONER E. ALEXANDER: 19 Q. I just want to make sure we all understand the day, 20 October 20th, okay? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. So, I think you said that you were far enough away 23 from the 24 out? 25 A. I've often asked myself that question, because in my that -- did you know that shots went Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 45 1 mind, I said, I must have heard that shot, I mean, you 2 can be very far away and still hear a gunshot. 3 Q. Right. 4 A. So, I have to believe that I did hear a shot. 5 didn't see it, but I have to believe that I heard it, 6 just because I know how -- how loud gunshots are. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. So, I followed the red van that they all -- the 9 robbers jumped into a red van and they drove out in the I Now, who did you follow again? 10 direction where I was, and I followed that van. 11 Q. Okay. 12 van, or could you not see that? 13 A. I didn't see that. 14 Q. Okay. 15 van? 16 A. Which I did to a switch up point, yes. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. I don't think at that point I saw any other car 19 following the red van. 20 Q. Okay. 21 Did you see how many people got into the red But, your job, you were told to follow the red Was there any other car following the red van? So, you followed the red van. Did you go down towards the thruway, if you recall? 22 A. I went -- we didn't go directly to the thruway. 23 stopped at a switch up point. 24 Q. Okay. 25 point, and who joined you at the switch up point? We So, the red van and you went to a switch up Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 46 1 A. So, that's where they went into a U-Haul, they went 2 into the U-Haul there. 3 Q. Okay. 4 road? 5 A. I assume so. 6 was sort of -- I don't know if it was a parking lot, but 7 there was sort of an area and I think that they left the 8 red van there, yes. 9 Q. Okay. Did they leave the red van on the side of the I think we were in the back, like it And they went into the U-Haul? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did anybody switch anything into your car at that 12 point? 13 A. Yes, yes, they switched the money bag into my trunk. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. I remember them asking me this the last time and I 16 remember saying 17 that I have no idea. 18 really know most of the people, and by that point, I was 19 kind of in a state of shock and confusion myself, so I 20 don't have any memory of who actually did that or even 21 how they did that. 22 Q. Okay. 23 confusion? 24 A. I was scared, I mean, I was just scared, that's all. 25 Q. What were you scared of, that's why I'm asking you Do you know who opened your trunk? but I then remember realizing I think -- first of all, I didn't Why were you in a state of shock and Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 47 1 whether you saw or heard anything at the mall? 2 A. I don't remember if I -- I certainly didn't know that 3 anyone was killed at the time. 4 heard shots. 5 felt like I was... 6 Q. Okay. 7 anyone put anything into the interior of the car? 8 A. No, I don't remember anyone doing that. 9 Q. Just your recollection is only the trunk? I could very well have I just know that I felt scared. I just So, at the switch up point, do you recall if 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. So, if any other material that you did not bring 12 ended up in your trunk, it did not happen at the transfer 13 point? 14 A. Not -- not -- not that I remember. 15 happened. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. I just remember that they put -- and I only remember 18 that because I wasn't expecting it and then it happened. 19 Q. Okay. 20 something in your car? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you're at the transfer point, what happens next? 23 A. So then we drive. 24 point there was a U-Haul, I think there was another car 25 and there was me. It may have I honestly don't remember. So, you're still by yourself after they put So, I drive following, at that So, there's now three vehicles and I'm Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 48 1 the last vehicle. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. And we're driving, and now we're driving towards the 4 New York Thruway. 5 Q. Okay. 6 or something? 7 A. I think that's, 8 we're driving along a rather wide, you know, road, if it 9 wasn't a highway, toward the actual highway, and we get And there was a road called is where -- so, 10 to the highway and there's a -- the ramp, and there's 11 a -- there's a roadblock. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. So, the U-Haul drives up to the roadblock and I 14 turned toward the left, toward another road. 15 that was 16 Q. Okay. 17 U-Haul? 18 A. I couldn't. 19 view of everything happening. 20 itself, and I could see -- and I could see when people -- 21 and I could definitely -- I mean, I definitely knew when 22 that shoot-out happened, I definitely heard that. 23 Q. Okay. 24 car, you were in the Honda. 25 A. Yes. I think I believe. Could you see what was happening to the I didn't have a -- I didn't have a clear I could see the U-Haul The Oldsmobile, which I think was the other Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 49 1 Q. Was the Oldsmobile with you or was it closer to the 2 U-Haul, or you don't know? 3 A. I think that the Oldsmobile followed them, followed 4 the U-Haul to the actual, you know, to the roadblock. 5 Q. Okay. 6 and I think Mr. 7 name. 8 A. Mr. 9 Q. Mr. So, how did those two gentlemen, who also was known by another entered your -- 10 A. Is who entered my car. 11 Q. How did -- 12 A. They were -- 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. I apologize. 16 weren't that close to the U-Haul? 17 A. So, they were up a slight incline and I was at the 18 bottom of the incline, and after the shoot-out, they ran 19 toward my car and got into it. 20 don't want to say it was so far away that they couldn't 21 run to it. 22 another road, and they did, they ran down the incline and 23 jumped into my car. 24 Q. Okay. 25 driving with the doors open or -- Let's each one of us talk at a time. I'm sorry. Yes. Yes. How did they get into your car if you So, it was -- it was -- I It just wasn't at the exact scene. It was on Do you remember opening the car, were you Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 50 1 A. You mean, how they got into the car? 2 Q. Yeah. 3 A. I'm sure I opened the car for them. 4 it, no, but I must have, because they came in. 5 Q. Did you recognize them? 6 A. I recognized -- yes, I did recognize them. 7 recognized both of them. 8 Q. How did you -- how did you know them, from your past? 9 A. I knew from my past. Do I remember I I don't know if I 10 immediately realized that's who it was, but I certainly 11 realized who it was as we were driving, and I recognized 12 Mr. 13 Q. Okay. 14 interview, we talked about the fact that you said you 15 didn't know anybody else involved except this one 16 gentleman. 17 these people? 18 A. Well, I didn't know. 19 before the crime was 20 as it happened, I knew there were other people involved. 21 I didn't know who it was, like I didn't know 22 from seeing him up at the acupuncture clinic. Because, you know, when we started this So, why was it okay to open your car for The only person I had talked to When the crime happened, was involved until he ran, but I knew other 23 people were. So, I wasn't surprised when I saw them. 24 guess I was surprised when I saw 25 just hadn't known that they particularly were involved I , but I just -- I Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 51 1 until they ran into my car, basically. 2 Q. Okay. 3 anything? 4 A. I don't remember. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. Drive. 7 Q. Okay. 8 or drive, or go fast, or, shit, we're in trouble? 9 A. I remember drive. So, they run into your car. Are they carrying And did they say anything to you? They didn't say, oh, my God, someone got shot, I remember saying drive. 10 I remember at some point my saying, I have no idea where 11 I'm going, and I remember one of them saying just drive, 12 you know, but I think -- I actually -- that's all I 13 remember. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. I drove along the same road, somewhat panicked about 16 the fact that I didn't know where I was going, and a car, 17 I don't think it was a marked police car, but it was a 18 car, was driving in the opposite direction. 19 they saw me, they turned around and started following me. 20 And I sped up and they chased me. 21 turn, and when I made the left turn, I crashed into a 22 retaining wall. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. I came out of the car, everyone came out of the car. 25 Q. Okay. And what happened next? And when And I had to make a What happened next? Did you come out of the car right away? Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 52 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. No, I came out of the car with my hands up. 4 I wanted it to be very clear that I was -- had my hands 5 up. 6 Q. Okay. 7 recall? 8 A. I honestly don't recall. 9 Q. Okay. Did you reach for anything? What about Okay. and I was -- do you Would you know why the record seems to 10 indicate you were reaching for a gun or you were reaching 11 behind your seat before you came out? 12 A. No. 13 through what they had gone through would be pretty leery 14 and suspicious of those of us coming out of that car. 15 Q. Okay. 16 was a Chief of Police by himself, or did he have backup 17 by that point? 18 A. I don't remember. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. I don't remember. 21 but I honestly don't remember. 22 Q. Okay. 23 I can only imagine that people who had just gone And by that point, was it only the, I think it Okay. I think there was more than one, And from what you recall, you don't recall or 24 were in the car? 25 A. No. saying anything to you while you I mean, other than keep driving, you know, and Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 53 1 my saying, I don't know where I'm going, and it was at 2 that level at that point. 3 Q. Okay. 4 drive? 5 A. No. And they didn't know where to tell you to 6 7 COMMISSIONER E. ALEXANDER: Okay. Thank you. 8 9 BY COMMISSIONER T. AGOSTINI: 10 Q. Thank you very much, Commissioner Alexander. Okay. 11 So, Ms. Clark, among the many reasons for which this 12 crime is notorious and infamous, largely for the horrible 13 deaths of your victims here, but also at trial, yourself 14 and, perhaps, some others, refused representation. 15 trial occurred without you having an attorney, perhaps 16 some of your other co-defendants did not have attorneys, 17 did the same thing. 18 through the record, is that you were fairly, I'm not sure 19 if disrespectful in court might be a soft way of putting 20 it, callous to the suffering and the pain of the families 21 who were there, the wives and the children -- 22 A. Absolutely. 23 Q. -- of the officers who lost their lives. 24 A. Absolutely, yes. 25 Q. And what you did was, you continued to espouse your The My understanding, as I've read Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 54 1 political beliefs, the ideology, that you had at the 2 time. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. You were -- well, rather than me put words in your 5 mouth, why don't you tell us how you were at the trial? 6 A. I had a completely defiant mindset. 7 thing I was -- I was certainly not yet thinking about the 8 deaths that I contributed to. 9 own situation very well either. I think the only I wasn't thinking about my I -- all I probably 10 was -- all I remember thinking about was, well, I was a 11 lousy getaway driver, so I should be a good political 12 prisoner, you know, and so it was this rebuilding of a 13 bravado kind of sense, and I, when I go back, when I 14 think back to my stance in that trial, I guess I would 15 say two things. 16 years between it, and I could have woken up to, if not 17 remorse, at least wanting to help myself, and I didn't, 18 and I'm profoundly sorry for that, and I was only seeing 19 the trial as a platform for my politics. 20 until I began to rethink things, that I even thought 21 about the fact that probably survivors of the victims 22 were there and how they would have felt seeing this 23 angry, self-righteous, callous person who obviously 24 didn't care that they had lost loved ones. 25 Q. Well -- One is that I had, you know, it was two And it wasn't Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 55 1 A. It's terrible. I mean, it's -- it's -- the whole -- 2 all of my actions that we're talking about are shameful, 3 and I can't say this is more shameful, but there's 4 something about it that is so appalling to me, it really 5 is. 6 Q. And I think that many would share that viewpoint as 7 well. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And so the Honorable Judge Ritter in passing sentence 10 did remark upon the extremist views, he believed, he said 11 that "everything that the defendants have done and said 12 compel the conclusion that they are prepared to repeat 13 their lawless conduct in furtherance of their extremist 14 views, irrespective of the cost in lives and without 15 remorse or repentance. 16 that any of the defendants will change," and he goes on 17 from there. 18 A. I think that my behavior could absolutely lead him to 19 feel that way, because that's what I showed at that time. 20 And I can only imagine how he felt trying to keep some 21 decorum in a courtroom at a time when, you know, he 22 was -- a whole community was hurting from this crime, and 23 I understand why he felt that I wouldn't change. 24 glad that I did, but I don't think there was evidence 25 that that was going to happen at the time. There is no reason to believe What do you think of that? I am Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 56 1 Q. Okay. And I think that's a fair statement, that at 2 that time you did appear to be void of the possibilities 3 from what you were evincing at that point, in terms of 4 your lack of repentance and your lack of remorse. 5 so, in the years since that time, when you did finally 6 grow up -- 7 A. I mean, one thing that's striking about the lack of 8 repentance and my lack of remorse, is that it also meant 9 that I was not even thinking about helping myself legally 10 at a time when it could have mattered to me, and it could 11 have mattered to my daughter. 12 Q. The other person who was on my mind as well. 13 A. Absolutely. 14 Q. And so, are you still politically driven or motivated 15 or influenced by politics or the ideology that you had at 16 that time? 17 A. No, no, absolutely not, I'm not. 18 my change, over time was not a change from one set of 19 politics to another set of politics. 20 from -- that started with saying, I have to become an 21 individual. 22 left behind, who I love. 23 the fathers who were lost and the children who don't have 24 their fathers. 25 And not the people, which is what the politics were And I think my shift, It was a change I have to start thinking about the child I I have to start thinking about I have to start thinking about people. Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 57 1 about, but people. And I remember once saying, I'm 2 putting my politics on -- I don't even -- the change I 3 have to go through -- the awfulness of what I did goes so 4 beyond politics, that I have to approach it in a deeper 5 way of really examining myself as a person, my 6 motivations, my relationships to people, and that came 7 the way I think about the world. 8 don't have political views, but it's not what drives me, 9 you know. It doesn't mean that I People and relationships and a sense of our 10 connection is what drives me, you know. It's just a very 11 different way of living. 12 Q. Okay. 13 is the way to make change? 14 A. No, I don't believe in violence. 15 violence begets violence, and violence begets enormous 16 pain, and that's true on an individual level, it's true 17 on a political level, you know, on a social level, on a 18 larger level, and whatever -- whatever beliefs I had that 19 were legitimate, I hurt those beliefs. 20 really was trying to fight for by the use of violence. 21 It delegitimizes our voices when we resort to violence. 22 Q. And in those days you were clearly working against 23 the government, and in the 38 years that you've been with 24 us, you seem to have developed a good relationship with 25 the government as it's been represented by the So, do you still think that violent revolution I just think that, I hurt anything I Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 58 1 administration at Bedford Hills, the programs, the 2 Superintendents, the many employees at Bedford Hills, 3 and, of course, the security, the guards that we have 4 there as well. 5 A. Absolutely. 6 that I've never been in conflict, you know, with 7 policies, but I've always said, well, if we have a -- if 8 there's a problem, I may feel this way, or we, as 9 inmates, may feel that way, but we have to look at the And in that, I think -- it doesn't mean 10 fact that they're facing the same problem from their end. 11 And so, we have to find the place in the middle where our 12 common interests can actually grow solutions. 13 been able to do that here and it's made a difference, but 14 it's also just a different attitude of life. 15 Q. Okay. 16 institutional record and your time with the department. 17 I want to check with my colleagues if there was anything 18 from during court or at sentencing that they wanted to 19 discuss before we move on. Well, I'd like to talk about your 20 COMMISSIONER W. SMITH: 21 covered that thoroughly. 22 questions. 23 And I've Thank you. I think you've I have no COMMISSIONER E. ALEXANDER: All right then. I agree. 24 Q. Okay. So, moving on into your time 25 that you've been in Bedford Hills, I'm not going to go Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 59 1 over every certificate that you've received, you are very 2 well accomplished. 3 accomplishments, particularly in founding the nursery 4 program there that, I believe, has been replicated in 5 other institutions and elsewhere, and with the work with 6 Puppies Behind Bars. 7 work with staff there. 8 achievement as well, in getting college started at 9 Bedford Hills back in its day. I have notebooks attesting to your And so -- as well as with your good And with your academic 10 A. Can I just make one small... 11 Q. Yes, please. 12 A. I founded the AIDS program, I was one of the founders 13 of ACE, and the college program, but I can't take credit 14 for founding the nursery. 15 Roosevelt, who founded it in the 1930s. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. But, I love working there. 18 Q. Okay. 19 memory of Eleanor Roosevelt, and so, I appreciate the 20 correction on that point there. 21 involved in the nursery program pretty much since the 22 beginning of your time with the department. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. 25 disciplinary record, that, I believe, that in the years, That goes to Eleanor Well, I definitely don't want to offend the But, you have been I'm going to remark here, in terms of your Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 60 1 you know, since things became more computerized, that 2 you've maintained a clean disciplinary record, but as 3 happens, in the earlier years, there was some 4 disciplinary activity. 5 to Commissioner Smith to talk about that with you. I'm going to ask -- turn it over 6 7 BY COMMISSIONER W. SMITH: 8 Q. Okay. 9 things that I found interesting with your original Thank you, Commissioner. The -- one of the 10 appearance and -- and because we spent so much time going 11 over all of the documents, was some -- some information 12 that was, I felt, was not known, or at least reviewed, as 13 it relates to discipline. 14 discussed the case with you last time have a lengthy 15 period of time, but in the grand scheme of things, I've 16 got quite a lengthy period of time, I guess, 22 plus 17 years. 18 understand from the transcript what was -- what was being 19 referred to. 20 know if you recall those, but -- so, I just had a couple 21 of -- some items of clarity more than anything. 22 I -- I dug into the information, required others to dig 23 into the information, because it's in a much different 24 form post-computer, like in the late '80s, as it was 25 prior to that. The individuals who had And so, when I read and understood, I could You had made some comments, and I don't I -- Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 61 1 A. Right. 2 Q. Mid and late '80s, and I knew the information was 3 there and -- and I was able to spend -- I was able to 4 insist that it be found. 5 information I poured over. 6 get into trouble prior to the S.H.U. time? 7 A. I think I got a Tier-II ticket early on. 8 remember the actual charge of it, you might have it 9 there, but I remember two times that I got tickets, and 10 in both cases they were probably creating a disturbance 11 or arguing with an officer, I would say. 12 Q. Okay. 13 at the last, about a, I think maybe a 15 day sanction, 14 approximately. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And the -- the -- in -- in 1983, you came into the 17 state system, is that right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. The -- there was a period of time where it looks 20 like, from a disciplinary perspective, there was a 21 January '84, so that would have been maybe three months 22 after, three to four months after, where there was a 23 disturbance. 24 a while ago, there was a refusal to lock-in. 25 remember that? It was. And there's a lot of When -- when did you first I don't There was a -- I know there was a discussion I don't know if you recall it, I know it's Do you Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 62 1 A. I actually don't remember that, to be honest. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. But, I do know that, in that first period, I had to 4 learn how to accept the authority in every situation. 5 The incident I remembered was one where our dryer was 6 broken and we had clothes hanging, and the officer said, 7 you have to take down the clothes, and I said loudly to 8 him, well, where do you expect us to put them. 9 Q. Correct. 10 A. And, you know, I didn't understand that that was a 11 direct challenge, you know, and I think that those 12 incidents helped me learn how to function better in the 13 facility. 14 Q. And a person does have to learn, it's a different 15 situation, and that -- that was something different. 16 January '84, you know, just to kind of give you an idea 17 of what was going on, I have the advantage, obviously, of 18 saying I want to see it and here it is. 19 A. Sure. 20 Q. There was -- this happened on January 24th, and you 21 and a group of inmates refused to follow a lock-in order. 22 You started chanting and singing. 23 now, is it a little more clear? 24 A. Yes, yes. 25 were upset because the heat had been off for a long time. The Do you recall that So, I think that was an incident where we Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 63 1 But, again, I think that whatever problem that is for 2 anyone else, for me, given what I came into the facility 3 with, I just had to learn to say, not me, you know. 4 might think -- you know, and I just had to learn that, 5 and it took that first year to learn that. 6 remember that incident, yes. 7 Q. And it gets into -- it goes in later to that, 8 stating, you know, that you were told to get locked in, 9 all of you, it goes on to say that you indicated you're I So, I do 10 not locking in, and, basically, like a chain reaction 11 that it started, which is what happens with these, no 12 matter in what facility. 13 A. Absolutely. 14 Q. One starts and then they all started chanting. 15 you've got one correction officer and a number of inmates 16 chanting, and ultimately there was a Lieutenant that 17 arrived. 18 and it's indicated here you still refused to lock-in, 19 stating that he -- we had better not put our hands on 20 her. 21 a little bit of, in some manner, some -- some -- 22 whether -- whether intentional or not, a little bit of 23 defiance and kind of, I don't know if leadership is the 24 right idea. 25 A. Grandstanding. Absolutely. Now At that point he talked the inmates to move-in, So, you know, a little bit of defiance and probably Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 64 1 Q. Yeah, right. 2 A. Grandstanding, I agree. 3 have -- I didn't remember that incident until you brought 4 it up, but I think it was indicative of, you know, of my 5 not yet really landing in my reality, yes. 6 Q. Okay. 7 that was just, I think the 15 days is all that was 8 mentioned, there's page 95 area for -- for original 9 discussion of discipline, really limited discussion, and I don't think I would And I can imagine. And then to move forward, 10 then about 152 some greater discussion. The Chair, or 11 the main -- strike that. 12 had gone over what's known as your custodial adjustment, 13 okay, and she actually did it in reverse order and there 14 was some question, was it before the S.H.U. and after the 15 S.H.U. 16 probably have a lot of information. 17 recall it, that she went over -- 18 A. Recall that she went over custodial adjustment? 19 Q. Right. 20 A. I think that -- my memory is that she said, you seem 21 to adjust well, and I said, well, I think it took me a 22 while. 23 of, you know, functioning okay, but I know that until I 24 began to deal with myself and my crime, which did not 25 happen for two more years, you know, I was a mess. The main interviewer last time I don't know if you recall that. I know you Do you sort of That's sort of what I remember, that I was sort Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 65 1 Q. Okay. Now, those were all positive, those were 2 pretty much all positive, they talk about custodial 3 adjustment. 4 talked about, you get along good with peers, and your 5 attendance and participation are acceptable, that was the 6 first group then. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. From '84, February to August, I think she read, your 9 adjustment has improved, not received any infraction, Aside from the misbehavior report we just 10 relates well to staff and peers. 11 program attendance is outstanding, program evaluations 12 state her work are exemplary. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And then it goes on from 8/'84 to 2/'85, it talks 15 about acceptable adjustment and just says positive 16 things. 17 outstanding, and I wish I could read it, because it's -- 18 A. I worked in the library, I was a library clerk. 19 Q. Okay. 20 to August of '86, adjustment is outstanding, program 21 involvement is acceptable. 22 regular basis. 23 after you're back from S.H.U. So, those were all read 24 and those were all positive. During that time period, 25 you were involved in a lot of correspondence about In programs. And the involvement, A library, something, was So, that was there. And then -- then February Goes to her assignments on a So -- and then I think the next one is Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 66 1 escape. 2 A. Right. 3 Q. Which -- which that -- that was never reviewed, 4 and -- and the thing is, I've had a lot of time to review 5 it. 6 A. People who were -- had been in May 19th who are now 7 fugitives, that included my daughter's father, Who -- who -- who were your letters written to? 8 9 and they -Q. Who else, who was the specific, because it's clear 10 you're writing to one individual by in large in the 11 planning of this? 12 A. Well, I think it was 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. Excuse me. 15 Q. He was writing back to you or communicating back to 16 you? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Because that's clear from what you said. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And this went over quite a -- quite a lengthy period 21 of time. 22 front of me, but what would you estimate the number of 23 letters that you sent out to him? 24 A. I honestly don't remember. 25 wouldn't have even thought there were a number of that I was writing to. And he was writing back to you? What would you estimate, I know what I have in If you had asked me, I Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 67 1 letters. 2 letters at most. 3 what, you know, obviously is true, so... 4 Q. What the documents are. 5 A. Yes. 6 my memory, I guess, because I ultimately, what I 7 remember, was the letters that got me stuck, you know, 8 got me to have to do a two year attempted escape, or 9 conspiracy to escape, so that's what I remember. 10 I would have thought that was like a couple of So, my memory of that is different than No, and I believe you, I'm just saying that, in Q. Right. And -- and you talk about, the person, if 11 , some of the -- some of the -- well, I 12 guess the specifics of where certain individuals are, 13 buildings, vulnerability points, you indicated -- talked 14 to the person that comes and sees you. 15 the person who's visiting you and that is -- they would, 16 what, take these items out, take the letters out hidden? 17 A. Yes, yes. 18 Q. Okay. In other words, And who was that person? 19 (Whereupon, the Inmate pauses.) 20 Q. You pause and hesitate, I can't -- knowing -- 21 A. The only reason I'm hesitating is because I'm sure 22 that it was a lawyer, at the time it had to be a legal 23 visit. 24 at the time, I mean, at that time. 25 So, I don't remember who was visiting me legally It might have been Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 68 1 Q. And she was fully aware of what was going on, because 2 there was verbal communication, in addition to the 3 written. 4 A. I honestly don't remember what conversations happened 5 with her. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. I doubt that there was a conversation with her about 8 what I was writing about, but I honestly don't remember. 9 Q. Who in the prison knew about what you were 10 contemplating? 11 A. No one. 12 Q. What about 13 A. Did not know until at one point I said to her, you 14 know, I'm thinking about this, and she said, count me 15 out. 16 want to have anything to do with me around that stuff. 17 Q. Well, in other parts of the letter, you talk about it 18 being a good thing for you to bounce it off of someone, 19 and she was a good person for you to bounce some of these 20 ideas off, that's what you talk about in one of the 21 letters. 22 A. So, she, herself, was not interested when I did talk 23 to her, and I think that was indicated in there, but I 24 want to say that I was trying to present myself as being 25 very very engaged in this with these people, because I No one knew. So, that was -- that was that. She really didn't Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 69 1 was at the time being criticized about my parents having 2 my child, my parents wanting my child, and I wanted to 3 sort of show that I'm still right there with you, and 4 that, you know, that was my motivation in doing that. 5 Q. And 6 A. Yes, and she didn't have any, you know, my memory is 7 that when I said something to her, she said, I'm not 8 interested. 9 Q. Okay. was Now, you had examined and written a number of 10 items. I believe probably the letters that you received, 11 you know, they're here and they had like a summary typed 12 out, I don't know if you recall that, it kind of 13 highlighted some of the major areas. 14 A. I don't think I received, let me just say, I don't 15 think I received those letters. 16 with -- when they -- my letters went out to them. 17 Q. Right. 18 A. And then they kept that along with their notes, but I 19 didn't receive back their letters, I don't believe. 20 Q. Where were they actually found? 21 A. In a safe house that got raided when -- when at least 22 some of those individuals were arrested. 23 Q. Right. 24 knew the answer for, was in 25 A. Yes. I think that they were And that safe house, which I kind of already , Maryland, right? Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 70 1 Q. Whose home? 2 A. My memory would say 3 that's true. 4 Q. And while you were getting these good -- these good 5 evaluations, you were writing -- 6 A. These letters. 7 Q. You were writing these letters. 8 A. Right. 9 Q. And -- and there's -- there's a listing of things but I'm not sure 10 that were said in those, and if you look even deeper, I 11 actually read the documents, because there's a lot of 12 things, like, you probably don't even remember talking 13 about motorcycles or some sort of a motorcycle that 14 were -- they were being used, that's not in the 15 summaries, but it's in the originals. 16 of instances where it is recorded that you were getting 17 yourself in good physical shape, you had -- you had -- in 18 a number of different letters, you had listings of where 19 facilities were. 20 actually, I can -- I can recognize your -- your pictures, 21 some of them you made updates, you talked about where the 22 guards were, security is tighter. 23 A. Right. 24 Q. You talked about it being -- getting more intense in 25 terms of security. There's a number I've been to Bedford Hills, so You talked about vulnerabilities Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 71 1 with -- with everything from school and counts for that, 2 to festivals, and, I mean, this is after having received, 3 at that point, a 75-to-life sentence, right? 4 A. Yes, yes. 5 Q. It's not unusual for inmates to, you know, consider 6 what if I could move out of here, what if I could leave, 7 if I could be broken out or sneak out, it happens, 8 probably to most that have life sentences, but what you 9 did here went way beyond that. You were talking about 10 real -- real options, real plans, including everything 11 from ways to sneak out, to willingness to have, what you 12 describe, as your comrades, acting in commando -- 13 commando postures. 14 A. Sure, absolutely. 15 Q. A commando is somebody using light -- light armor, 16 speed, power, willingness to kill, and, I mean, this is 17 after -- this is -- now you're, I think, 35, 18 approximately, right? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. So now we're talking -- we're talking old enough to 21 be the President of the United States, and you're 22 planning -- and you talked about, I mean, you were 23 telling this person, the willingness to kill, because you 24 told about a guard, a CO, that would not kill you. 25 you remember that? Do you know what a commando is? Do I'm trying to -- do you remember that Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 72 1 part? 2 A. I don't. 3 Q. There was a female who was unwilling to kill you. 4 And so, I mean, why after all of the time you're inside, 5 you found that you still were willing -- I mean, to be 6 honest with you, and tell me if I'm wrong, but it appears 7 from the sheer volume, you had a willingness to do 8 whatever it might take, including -- I mean, all of these 9 wonderful -- all of these wonderful evaluations, yet 10 you've got multiple times you're calling the same PO's 11 pigs in your writing. 12 A. Right. 13 Q. What's going on? 14 A. I think what's going on for me in that period, and 15 it's what I sort of alluded to the first time, is that 16 I'm kind of -- I'm splitting, I'm kind of in two places 17 at once. 18 getting acculturated to being here and functioning here; 19 and on the other hand, I'm completely still wanting to 20 have this connection with this secret group, who was 21 going to continue doing what we believed in. 22 that, in truth, I never thought that group of people 23 could break me out, but I was perfectly willing to 24 entertain a certain, you know, mutual fantasy about it in 25 order to keep that sense of, like, you know, this is a And on the one hand, I am honestly actually And I think Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 73 1 connection I have; and, therefore, protect myself from my 2 reality, which was that I'm in prison and this is real 3 and this is what I have to start to think about. 4 a way of avoiding that, and while they were just letters 5 and while I didn't think that anything would actually 6 come of it, it could have. 7 that, you know, that words can lead to deeds, can lead to 8 death and destruction. 9 about what began my real shift and questioning, it was It was I mean, I've learned since And so, it's why, when I think 10 when those letters were found and I went to S.H.U. and I 11 had to say, which also affected my visits with my 12 daughter, and I had to say to myself, what am I willing 13 to risk or throw away for the sake of this connection, 14 you know, is there -- is there -- it's sort of what 15 you're saying to me, well, this is two years after the 16 crime and you're still in this state of mind, and I think 17 that's what made me question that. 18 Q. Now, just a last couple of items, as it relates to 19 this. 20 recommended loss of good time, is that true? 21 A. It could well have been. 22 remember the two years in S.H.U. 23 Q. Okay. 24 the documents, I don't expect you to recall that far 25 back. I believe, from this, you had received two years I don't remember. And it may be that. I just You know, again, I have You appealed the decision internally and it was -- Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 74 1 the decision was affirmed, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you take any legal action on it beyond the 4 internal? 5 A. I have a vague memory of doing an Article 78, but I'm 6 not sure it was about that. 7 Q. Okay. 8 there's indications of all sorts of areas of potential 9 vulnerability. And you're -- well, as I say, you know, Tell me about 10 A. Say that again. 11 Q. 12 mispronouncing it. 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. Well, you were talking about Festival Days and 15 possibilities of getting out, what the options were, 16 sneaking versus commando style, and you said in a number 17 of occasions, I always think of 18 A. I honestly don't remember. 19 probably people involved in other Movements somewhere 20 or -- I don't honestly remember who I'm referring to, but 21 I think it's more so thinking of figures that I saw as my 22 inspiration. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. I don't know, because I can't remember who they were. 25 I honestly don't remember. I may be Is it -- I assume that they were So, had they done something similar? Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# And that's fair enough. 75 1 Q. Okay. Were you interviewed 2 by, is it OOB? 3 A. You mean like the hearing officer? 4 Q. Well, also, you know, it says legal attorneys, pagers 5 are checked, they can't bring in any equipment, I'll 6 check on metal detector. 7 they can come in. 8 while it was arranged over the phone with no official 9 credentials, she got permission to bring in a camera and Once the briefcase is checked, Also, when I was interviewed by OOB, 10 a tape recorder. 11 A. OOB? 12 Q. Either OOB or DOB. 13 A. I honestly don't -- oh, that was a -- I was 14 interviewed by -- it was a newsletter that was called 15 OOB, yes, it was Off Our Backs, and I think I'm just 16 saying that -- I guess what I'm saying in that is like, 17 well, when they came in, they just were allowed to come 18 in with their stuff. 19 that. 20 Q. Are legal visitors allowed greater access then, is 21 that -- 22 A. I think back then they were allowed greater access, 23 yes. 24 Q. Okay. 25 thank you for your -- But, they had nothing to do with As far as being checked. Okay. All right. I Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 76 1 A. I don't think that's any longer true, but it was 2 then. 3 Q. All right. I thank you for your time. 4 A. Thank you. I guess I would just like to say about 5 that -- 6 Q. Sure, go ahead. 7 A. -- two things. 8 seen that stuff for all those years, and so it's sort of 9 shocking to hear myself again, I mean, it just is, One is that, I haven't, you know, 10 because I have to sort of say, this is me, this is me who 11 was there, and I -- because when I think about it, when I 12 talk to my -- tell my story, I always say, that's the 13 moment where I said what I just said to you, and I think 14 it's true. 15 beginning of change, but I want to make clear that I was 16 only lucky that nothing ever came of any of that. 17 happy that nothing came of that. 18 kind of repetition of the same mindset as my crime, and 19 that it took that repetition for me to begin to look at 20 things. 21 Q. And I think that there were those who were out there 22 that were committed at the same time you were, who were 23 probably willing -- and you talk about that as well, 24 others coming into the group. 25 been those who very well would have -- would have been So, I sort of think of it as like the I'm I do think that it was I think there may have Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 77 1 willing to, you know, to -- to do this, among other 2 things, that would create quite a splash. 3 that that has happened with prison breaks. 4 A. Sure, sure. 5 6 COMMISSIONER W. SMITH: We've found Thank you. But, thank you very much. 7 INMATE: Thank you. 8 9 BY COMMISSIONER T. AGOSTINI: 10 Q. Thank you, Commissioner Smith. And so, Ms. Clark, as 11 I've mentioned, I have several notebooks of certificates 12 and accomplishment, several hundreds of letters of 13 support, at least 250 of which are purported to be from 14 people who know you. 15 incarcerated women who you helped tremendously. 16 letters from former 17 other professionals who have worked with you over the 18 decades. 19 on the record. 20 A. That's fine. 21 Q. We have them here. 22 to many to have done a remarkable bid, to put it in plain 23 terms. 24 score as low risk and low need in every category. 25 only elevated score being in the history of violence, it I know many of them are formerly I have and many And so, I'm not going to go through all of them And you have, you know, are known I have your Risk Assessment in front of me, you Your Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 78 1 seems like a fair score. The Case Plan is a nice lengthy 2 Case Plan. 3 doing, but some of your goals for the future; in terms of 4 work and education; a lot of the work that you have done 5 in your clinical pastoral studies. 6 work done on the clemency, which was granted to you, an 7 extraordinary remedy by Governor Cuomo, and a lot of 8 information, of course, about your many years with 9 Puppies Behind Bars and working in the nursery, and the It speaks to not only what you have been You have boxes of the 10 positive impact of your efforts in both of those regards. 11 What would you do if you were released? 12 A. One, I'm aware that it's been 38 years and I think it 13 will take me some time to reacquaint myself to the 14 outside world. 15 with here have outside components that I would want to 16 continue to work with. 17 said come work with us. 18 Q. And that's at 19 A. And that's at 20 the person, 21 always said, even if I have another job, that they would 22 love for me to -- one of the things we do is we try to 23 bring our dogs into the city, especially, so that they 24 can get used to being in the city, and I would take those 25 dogs, and I said I would be happy to do that. Both of the organizations that I work I mean, has always And I also feel -- and who runs the Puppies Behind Bars has So, I Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 79 1 think, to begin with, those are like -- that's work that 2 I -- that has a connection between where I've been and 3 where I'm going; and, therefore, I think it's a good 4 place to start and it gives me a sense then of what else 5 is out there. 6 38 years, and I'm 69, but I need to work several more 7 years to be eligible for social security. 8 going to be a pretty important focus. 9 thing is that I have, you know, I have a -- I want to I think I've learned a lot from these So, that's And the other 10 rebuild my relationship with my daughter and with my 11 family. 12 for all of these years. 13 recently married, they want to have kids, they want to 14 have a child, and I want to be a part of that. 15 family ties feel really important to me. 16 Q. Okay. 17 I read a letter from 18 letter that she did write in your support. 19 housing, where would you live? 20 A. They have been there for me in a profound way I think that my daughter, who's And so, So, you have employment, you have family, and , which was a very powerful In terms of 21 22 23 24 25 , Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 80 1 2 3 4 . 5 Q. Okay. And so, you have a home, employment. No 6 doubt, a great deal of support as, you know, evidenced by 7 the notebooks of letters that I have. 8 of your plans to be a public figure, to be an outspoken 9 person, expressing any viewpoints that -- Would it be a part 10 A. No, I think -- 11 Q. -- you would want to share? 12 A. Sorry. 13 think two things. 14 there are going to be bruised feelings in the victim 15 community, and I don't want, you know, I don't want to 16 pour more salt on any wounds. 17 been here, I've also -- I've done a lot of work for a 18 long time without it becoming public. 19 get, you know, tried to get clemency, it became more 20 public. 21 gratitude, if I leave, and a sense of having to be aware 22 of the feelings of others in the community about that, 23 and not going out to become a public speaker about 24 anything. 25 Q. Okay. No, I don't plan to be a public figure. I One is, I'm aware that if I get out, And most of the time I've Once I tried to But, I think that I'm going out with a sense of Well, gratitude and humility are good Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 81 1 qualities to pursue. 2 A. The only other thing I would say is that, as I've 3 always said, working with, you know, parole and being 4 clear about my parameters, I would continue to offer any 5 kind of victim/offender dialogue that anyone felt that 6 they would want to have, and in one way or another, I 7 think that that will also keep me honest, you know. 8 don't leave forgetting, you know, I don't leave the crime 9 behind. I I take my responsibility with me. 10 Q. Okay. I just want to remark among the letters, that 11 you do have close family and extended family between 12 siblings and cousins and your daughter. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. So, there's a large number of family members who have 15 written in support; in addition to friends; 16 professionals; formerly incarcerated and such; members 17 from the legal community, a great number of members from 18 the legal community who have written; in addition to 19 members from the faith-based community; and members from 20 Rockland County itself; a number of elected officials in 21 every level of government from the city to the state to 22 the federal government; and a wide swath of members from 23 the community have written in your favor. 24 well aware, a wide swath of members from the community, 25 officials from various levels of government as well have And as you are Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 82 1 written in opposition to your release. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. I'd like to ask my colleagues if they have any 4 questions that they would like to ask you. 5 6 BY COMMISSIONER W. SMITH: 7 Q. Well, I think, number one, you did have a successful 8 appeal, so you do have a good idea, I'm assuming, your 9 attorneys have shared with you, and you have letters from 10 all over the place, from -- from individuals, from 11 community, from people that know you directly, people 12 that have no connection with you whatsoever. 13 know, there is -- there is a lot to consider as we review 14 this. 15 have a letter from four Commissioners, three who I worked 16 with and respect. 17 you. 18 everything I got that's been sitting in front of me for 19 the last two weeks, and that's why we don't do this with 20 a computer. 21 good, but they just don't know what I've seen. 22 A. Right. 23 Q. They don't know what we've gotten, and that's, again, 24 that's respecting who they are. 25 A. Correct. It is, you I know, and I'll just give you an indication, we In the same sense, they know some of They don't know, I guarantee you they don't know We have a COMPAS that we reviewed, which is Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 83 1 Q. And -- and we get letters from a lot of individuals. 2 The ones that are most important are indications from 3 you. 4 they say, hey, you can watch my granddaughter. 5 daughter's letter is powerful, it really is, and it shows 6 a lot of wisdom. 7 who, you know, have -- have -- are paying really the 8 price for what occurred. 9 A. Absolutely. If somebody says, hey, come live in my house. If Your And on the same sense, there are those 10 Q. And so, although there's all of this documentation, I 11 give -- I give it, all of the documentation, the weight 12 that it's due. 13 under the law. 14 A. Absolutely. 15 Q. And -- and there's certainly positive and not 16 positive, but, you know, as Commissioner had said, there 17 is a lot that you've been involved in. 18 we're going to do. 19 that's why discipline to me is a very important thing, if 20 you violate, you know, based on the nature of the 21 violation, you could be held. 22 or we can hold you. 23 we can hold you today, do you know the longest time we 24 could impose a hold today, the longest? 25 A. I assume two years. That's kind of what we're charged to do I don't know what If we release you and you violate, Today we can release you Do you know what the longest is that Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# You're absolutely right. 84 1 Q. Correct. You're right. 2 And then if we were to release you and you violated, 3 what's the longest at a single time you could be held? 4 A. Two years. 5 Q. No. 6 give to my individuals who come in front of me with -- 7 with a life sentence. 8 as is deemed appropriate. 9 A. As my sentence, correct, correct. I'm not sure. And I say this, this is kind of a tape that I You can get a hold imposed as long 10 Q. I've -- I've -- we -- we, within the last month, 11 we've imposed many holds beyond two years. 12 that was beyond two years and one member of this Panel 13 just -- we were questioning about it, and then another 14 member of the Panel agreed it may have been too long, so 15 we were able to reduce it. 16 it if it's a violation on the outside, but, I mean, 17 I've -- I've done many that are three, five, ten years 18 in -- in one stroke of the pen. 19 A. Sure, I understand, absolutely. 20 Q. So, the liability is gigantic. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And -- and I think, you know, there are other 23 dynamics you can imagine, a lot of this is common sense, 24 right? 25 A. Yes. We had a hold We can't -- we can't increase Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 85 1 Q. Okay. So, I just want to caution you in that regard. 2 A. Can I just speak to that for a minute? 3 Q. Certainly. 4 A. Speak to two things you said. 5 like, sort of what people know about me and what they 6 don't, one of the things that I have tried to do, 7 including talking about those letters, is to say, this 8 was who -- I mean, I couldn't -- I couldn't make the 9 changes I made if I didn't say, this is what I did and One is, in terms of, 10 here's how I understand why I did it. As crazy as it 11 feels to me now, it's still me who did it, and I think 12 that's why someone like 13 -- it 14 took her a very very very long time before she could 15 feel, even within the parameters of the prison, that I 16 could become trustworthy, as someone who was going to be 17 honest, and fully without having any undercover agendas. 18 And I think that that's what I learned from that, is 19 having to be one person with one sensibility. 20 only other thing I wanted to say is, I just spent -- 21 someone visited me who had done -- a man who I didn't 22 know, he came because he was involved with interns from 23 the pastoral program, but he had done 20 years and he 24 said that -- he started out a gangbanger and then he got 25 into college and he changed, but he talked about being And the Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 86 1 out, and he said that when he went to his -- every parole 2 officer he's ever had, what he would say to them is, he 3 would say, I am never going back to prison, therefore, 4 tell me what I need to do and not do to ensure that that 5 is my future. 6 go to my parole officer and I'm going to say, I have 7 spent 38 years in prison, I would like to spend the rest 8 of my time outside, what do I need to do and not do in 9 order to do that. That would be my approach. I am going to And there's no -- there's no veering 10 from that, as far as I'm concerned. 11 thing I want to say is that, I know I have this record of 12 all of this good work, but I want to make -- I want to 13 make clear that my good work is because -- is my way of 14 saying, I owe that to the victims, you know, it's driven 15 by saying, I did something that I can't take back, so I 16 have to make some meaning as how I feel about that, and 17 what they're going through. 18 feelings about them. 19 20 And the only other And so, it's infused with my COMMISSIONER W. SMITH: you. Okay. Thank Thank you, Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER T. AGOSTINI: 22 Commissioner. 23 to ask Commissioner Alexander at this time if she 24 has any questions or remarks. 25 Thank you, Ms. Clark. Thank you, And so, I want Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 87 1 BY COMMISSIONER E. ALEXANDER: 2 Q. I do. 3 Commissioner Smith, and I appreciate that. 4 you pretty hard about that period of time when you were 5 coming to grips or learning to, I guess, go on with the 6 rest of your life, when you were still thinking about 7 escape or not ready to move on. 8 point, I think the ringleader was still at large, right, 9 he was caught about six years later, I think you just said some powerful things to He questioned Have you -- at that ? 10 A. I think that he might have already been caught, but 11 I'm not sure. 12 might be wrong. 13 Q. And I might be wrong, too. 14 A. Yes, yes. 15 Q. But, I guess my question is, were you ever asked if 16 you had any information about anyone else who was at 17 large? 18 A. Only at the time of arrest. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. Only at the time of arrest. 21 Q. So, no one came into the prison ever or you never 22 volunteered any information to help get the people who 23 were still at large? 24 A. No, no, and I -- no. 25 Q. Okay. I thought he was caught early on, but I I might be wrong. Do you know if there are any fugitives still Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 88 1 at large? 2 A. I absolutely don't think there are any fugitives 3 still at large, but I'm only saying that based in -- sort 4 of public record, you know, in terms of how the trials 5 proceeded, not because of any personal information. 6 Q. Okay. 7 to Commissioner Agostini, that you don't want to be 8 public, you don't want to be a lightning rod, but it's 9 fair to say that, you know, you don't have the ability to And I appreciate the fact that what you said 10 do this, but we do, if you Google your name, you are a 11 public figure, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And there's actually a website which says, "What can 14 you do to help Judy." 15 A. Sure. 16 Q. Did you authorize that? 17 A. I didn't particularly authorize the website, but the 18 people who supported me, wanted to be able to -- it took 19 an enormous effort to build the kind of network of 20 support first to gain clemency, and then to try to 21 address public perceptions that would affect my board. 22 And I think that we tried to do what we could to build 23 that support. 24 saying no to a lot of media offers at the same time, and 25 that's been my balance, you know, to try to figure out -- At the same time, I've spent a lot of time Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 89 1 I have -- I always say, and I try to act to remember, and 2 many times when people come and say we want to make a 3 movie, what I say is, the heros of this story are not 4 here, they're in that community, and go talk to them. 5 Q. Okay. 6 apology letter, I've read some of the articles you've 7 written. 8 worked hard on issues of remorse and many sorts of 9 things. And I think that's fair. And I did read your I know that you became a chaplain and you've So, I guess my question is, we have a lot of 10 victims, and because of the lawsuit, you know about a lot 11 of the opposition. 12 their family members are never coming home, why do you 13 deserve to go home? 14 A. Well, the first thing I would say to them is how 15 deeply sorry I am. 16 them more than anything else, is that I am sorry and will 17 feel enormous regret and responsibility to them forever. 18 That's what I feel like I need to say to them. 19 also completely understand their feelings about not 20 wanting to see me out, that that's understandable for 21 them to feel that, because as you say, their losses are 22 forever. 23 think it's important to believe in a system, where we can 24 both be punished and changed, and that when change is 25 real and happens and we've paid, you know, we've paid a What would you say to them, I mean, I mean, that's what I have to say to And I What I would say to them or to anyone is that I Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 90 1 big price, I've been in prison for 38 years, I'm 69 years 2 old, but more importantly than that, that I have done the 3 work that you have to do to change from the person who 4 committed that crime. 5 to symbolize the potential for change and the recognition 6 that when you do wrong, you get punished, and when you 7 try to make amends, that it's recognized, and that it can 8 give hope to others as well. 9 all of that -- I think to the victims I would say, I And that letting me out is a way I'm not sure I'd ever say 10 understand why you feel the way you feel, because that's 11 what's true for them, I understand that they feel that 12 way. 13 14 COMMISSIONER E. ALEXANDER: Okay. Thank you. 15 16 BY COMMISSIONER T. AGOSTINI: 17 Q. Thank you, Commissioner. 18 come to a close here, I have read through and will 19 continue to consider not only the remarks of the 20 sentencing Court and its minutes, but in the letters that 21 we have received from the Court, from the District 22 Attorney's office, letters from your own attorneys, who 23 we have received, who have done a remarkable job in 24 organizing and presenting the materials on your behalf, 25 the various packets and letters from both of your And so, Ms. Clark, as we Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 91 1 attorneys. And so, we're going to take all of the 2 materials in the file and the record into consideration. 3 I give the last word to you, what else would you like us 4 to know? 5 A. One, that I feel very very fortunate to be speaking 6 before you today, that this is a privilege that I 7 couldn't even fathom only a couple of years ago, and I 8 take that seriously. 9 when I have to go back and think about all of the people Two, that I so deeply feel pained 10 who suffer forever for this, and that I truly do know 11 that their -- that their losses are permanent in many 12 ways, including the loss of life. 13 am, my life has to be about affirming life and respecting 14 the lives of others, and that's a promise I can make to 15 you, that's a promise I can make to the victims, and it's 16 something that I will say to anyone who ever -- and have 17 said and will continue to say to anyone who ever has any 18 bravado about my crime. 19 enormous remorse for that crime. 20 Q. Okay. 21 interview, for everything that has been put together on 22 your behalf. 23 will close the record. 24 A. Can I say one other thing? 25 Q. You may. And that wherever I I have nothing other than Well, that is well said. I thank you for the If there are no more questions, then we I'm sorry. Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 92 1 A. Okay. 2 are many victims, but for me, the thing that I wrote on 3 my paper when I walked in is a list, 4 When I talk about victims, and it's true there and that's the list that I feel 5 responsible to, and they lost their lives and I'm sorry 6 for it. 7 includes 8 includes 9 of where I start from and it's where I want to end in And the list includes Officer it it includes it and that's -- that's the beginning 10 this, because I honor them and I am sorry for the losses 11 and the deaths. 12 Q. All right. 13 deliberating and you will get a decision in the near 14 future. 15 A. Thank you. 16 Q. Thank you very much. Well, I thank you once again. We will be Thank you very much. Have a good day. 17 (Whereupon, the Inmate was excused.) 18 (After due deliberation by the Parole Board 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Panel, the following decision has been rendered:) Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 93 1 2 DECISION 3 4 Open date 5/15/2019 or earlier. 5 6 This release decision should not be interpreted as 7 mitigating the serious nature of your offense or in any 8 way to forgive your role in the 1981 robbery of the 9 Brinks armored truck in New York that resulted in 10 Sergeant Officer and Brinks 11 guard 12 seriously injured and scarred for life. 13 suffering survivors of this crime who are the victims, 14 wives, children, and family, first responders, and the 15 larger community of Rockland County. 16 Your behavior was criminal. 17 the well being of some, in favor of others, is a 18 disgrace. 19 keeping with applicable factors and principles including, 20 but not limited to: 21 original sentence of 75 years to life ordered in part by 22 your unrepentant behavior and refusal of counsel, your 38 23 years of time served, the clemency granted to you in 24 2016, your good institutional record including 25 programmatic achievements on your own behalf such as being violently killed. Others were There are long You were wrong. Your callous disregard for However, this release decision is granted in Your advanced age of 69, your Judith Clark DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 94 1 post-secondary education and pastoral studies, and your 2 efforts on behalf of others including the founding of the 3 AIDS Counseling and Education program, your decades of 4 work in the nursery program mentoring new mothers, your 5 efforts to secure the services of a college to serve the 6 inmate population, and your many years training service 7 dogs for veterans and law enforcement. 8 considered your early serious discipline which occurred 9 in 1985, your documented efforts to apologize to your We have also 10 victims and the community that can be traced back to 11 1992, and your disavowal of the political ideologies and 12 methods you developed in your youth. 13 considered your low risk assessment scores, your Case 14 Plan, documentation submitted in your favor by officials 15 and numerous professionals in the corrections, legal, 16 academic, and faith based communities among many others, 17 and the documentation submitted in opposition by 18 officials and numerous professionals in law enforcement 19 among many others. 20 the official letters from the District Attorney and the 21 sentencing court as well as the remarks of the judge in 22 the sentencing minutes, the prosecuting attorney and your 23 parole release packet, binders and supplemental material 24 submitted by your attorneys and their letter. 25 Additionally considered were your release plans that Further, we Carefully reviewed and considered are Judith Clark 1 2 DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 95 include housing, employment, resources and support. After an extensive interview, review of the record 3 and deliberation, this panel finds that there is ample 4 evidence of rehabilitation, remorse and transformation 5 and we conclude that you are likely to remain at liberty 6 without once again violating the law and that your 7 release is compatible with the welfare of the overall 8 community. 9 and serving 38 years in prison, we no longer believe that In view of this evidence of transformation 10 your release would so deprecate your offense as to 11 undermine respect for the law. 12 Commissioners Agostini and Alexander concur. 13 14 15 Commissioner Smith dissents: Following a personal interview, record review, and 16 deliberation, I dissent with the panel majority decision 17 to release you on parole at this time. 18 By law, Commissioners of the Board of Parole 19 determine the weight given to the statutory factors. 20 Release at this time would deprecate the seriousness of 21 the offenses and undermine respect for the law. 22 Among the mitigating factors in favor of release are 23 your program accomplishments, as well as support from 24 family and close friends. 25 COMPAS scores, and residential/release plans were also Your document submissions, low Judith Clark 1 2 DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 96 considered. Aggravating factors against your release include the 3 excessive violence of the instant offenses of Murder 4 2nd/Robbery 1st, and the escalation they represent from 5 your prior criminal conduct in the state of Illinois. 6 addition, your willingness to engage in a plan to escape 7 after the convictions is disturbing. 8 discussed in a limited fashion during the parole 9 interview. In That plan was However, the detailed planning and 10 capabilities of your associates in the revolutionary May 11 19th Communist Organization remain troubling. 12 I find most compelling the impact on the families and 13 loved ones of Police Officer 14 Sergeant 15 viciously executed. Police and Guard who were 16 In time, the thousands of written comments in 17 opposition and in favor of your release will be put in 18 storage. 19 Media coverage will lessen. What will not diminish is the loss felt by the loved 20 ones of 21 weeping will remain. and . The sounds of their 22 I vote to deny your release at this time. 23 Commissioner W. William Smith, Jr. 24 April 5, 2019 25 Judith Clark 1 DIN#83G0313 NYSID# 97 Special conditions of release: 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I will seek, obtain, and maintain employment and/or an academic/vocational program. I will abide by a curfew established by the Parole Officer. I will not associate in any way or communicate by any means with ( 9 10 11 12 13 without the permission of the Parole Officer. I will not associate in any way or communicate by any means with 14 15 16 ) without the permission of the Parole Officer. I will not associate in any way or communicate by any 17 means with 18 the permission of the Parole Officer. without 19 Geographic. 20 That you will not seek to retell and financially 21 profit from your crime and thereby further exacerbate its 22 tragic impact upon your victims. 23 24 25 98 1 2 3 4 C E R T I F I C A T I O N 5 6 I, Anthony D'Ambrosio, a Certified Shorthand 7 Reporter, hereby certify that the proceeding in the above 8 matter was taken by me stenographically and then 9 transcribed to the best of my ability. 10 11 Anthony Dambrosio 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Anthony D'Ambrosio, CSR