1 1 STATE OF MICHIGAN 2 BEFORE THE MICHIGAN PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 3 4 5 In the matter of the application of DTE Electric Company for approval of its Integrated Resource Plan pursuant to MCL 460.6t, and for other relief. _____________________________________/ Case No. U-20471 6 PUBLIC HEARING 7 Wayne County Community College - Downtown Campus 8 Frank Hayden Community Room 9 1001 W. Fort Street 10 Detroit, Michigan 48226 11 Thursday, June 20, 2019 12 4:00 p.m. 13 14 - - - 15 16 APPEARANCES: 17 Before: 18 SALLY TALBERG, MPSC Chairperson NORMAN SAARI, MPSC Commissioner DANIEL SCRIPPS, MPSC Commissioner 19 DENNIS W. MACK, Administrative Law Judge 20 CATHY COLE, MPSC Staff 21 22 - - - 23 24 25 REPORTED BY: Lori Anne Penn, CSR-1315 33231 Grand River Avenue Farmington, Michigan 48336 Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 2 1 I N D E X 2 3 PAGE OPENING REMARKS: 4 Judge Dennis Mack 5 5 Commission Chair Sally Talberg 6 6 Commissioner Norman Saari 10 7 Commissioner Dan Scripps 11 8 STAFF PRESENTATION: 9 Cathy Cole 10 12 PUBLIC COMMENT 11 Jane C. Garcia 26 12 Bridget Vial 27 13 Emily Prehoda 29 14 Rob Rafson 33 15 Pastor John Hearn, Jr. 36 16 Justin Schott 38 17 Reverend Deidric Tupper 41 18 Ken Zebarah 44 19 Tony Muhich 47 20 Mark Farris 50 21 Diane VanBuren 51 22 Horace Sheffield 54 23 Kathryn Savoie 56 24 Kiava Stewart 58 25 Jason Hayes 60 Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 3 1 PUBLIC COMMENT (Continued): PAGE 2 Charles Kesner 62 3 Antonio Cosme 65 4 Jim Sherman 68 5 Michelle Martinez 71 6 Gloria Lowe 74 7 Lauren Sargent 76 8 Nick Dreher 79 9 Rita Mitchell 82 10 Jim Murray 84 11 America Yahya 85 12 John Langmore 87 13 Fred Miller 91 14 Carmel Cuthey 93 15 Adrian Laurenzi 95 16 Jesse DeerInWater 97 17 Herb Helzor 100 18 Piper Carter 103 19 Brad Williams 105 20 Paul Jonna 107 21 Diana Post 108 22 Nancy Skinner 109 23 Gibran Washington 114 24 Bob Nelson 117 25 Briana Parker 119 Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 4 1 PUBLIC COMMENT (Continued): PAGE 2 Eric Marcot 120 3 Constance Bodurow 121 4 Nicole Marcot 124 5 Mia McPherson 126 6 Sheila Allen-Frazier 129 7 Lee Andre 130 8 Maria Thomas 132 9 Traci Rink 135 10 Matthew Borke 139 11 Joel Batterman 143 12 Ian D. Tran 144 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 5 1 Detroit, Michigan 2 Thursday, June 20, 2019 3 At about 4:00 p.m. 4 5 - - - (Public Hearing commenced pursuant to due notice.) 6 JUDGE MACK: Good afternoon. This is a 7 public meeting before the Michigan Public Service 8 Commission for taking comment on the application of DTE 9 Electric Company for approval of its Integrated Resource 10 Plan pursuant to MCL 460.6t, and for other relief. 11 docket number of this case is U-20471. 12 The My name is Dennis Mack, I'm an 13 administrative law judge for the State of Michigan, and I 14 will be assisting the Commission during this public 15 meeting. 16 Consistent with the notice entered on 17 May 15, this proceeding is intended to inform the public 18 about both the IRP process and the Commission's role in 19 reviewing the application through the administrative 20 hearing process, and providing the public opportunity to 21 comment on the application to the Commissioners. 22 I would like to note that we have a court 23 reporter who is transcribing this meeting, so it's 24 important to maintain quiet in the room and that all 25 cellphones are silenced. The transcript of this meeting Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 6 1 will be available on the Commission's E-docket under the 2 case number. 3 the application to the Commission's ultimate final order, 4 is also available on the E-docket. In addition, all filings in this case, from 5 6 And with that, I will turn it over to the chair of the Public Service Commission. 7 MS. TALBERG: Good afternoon. My name is 8 Sally Talberg, I'm the chairman of the Michigan Public 9 Service Commission. We have three Commissioners here, 10 Commissioner Norm Saari, Commissioner Dan Scripps, and 11 myself. 12 advice and consent from the Michigan Senate, and we serve 13 staggered six-year terms. 14 also has about 180 technical staff with background in 15 engineering, accounting, customer assistance, and other 16 fields. We're all appointed by the Governor, and with 17 The Public Service Commission So I'm going to give a brief 18 introduction, just some of my background, and then 19 talk -- provide an overview of why we're here today. 20 I've served on the Public Service 21 Commission since 2013, was previously on the staff, and 22 have spent about the last 20 years in environmental and 23 energy fields. 24 25 The purpose for why we're here today is to take public input on DTE Energy's Integrated Resource Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 7 1 Plan, or IRP as we call it. 2 for how the utility will meet its customer energy needs 3 in the future; it examines options such as energy 4 efficiency, new generation sources, such as wind energy, 5 solar, and other sources, as well as retirement of 6 existing power plants. 7 This is a comprehensive plan The Public Service Commission is a 8 creature of statute. 9 years ago originally to regulate railroads in the state, 10 and our responsibilities have changed over time based on 11 industry changes and legislation that either adds or 12 takes away responsibilities for the Public Service 13 Commission. 14 energy laws that were passed by the Michigan legislature 15 and signed into law by the Governor in 2016, and that's 16 what really brings us here today. 17 Acts 341 and 342, instituted a new integrated resource 18 planning process the Commission administers for electric 19 utilities that are under our jurisdiction. 20 We were created over a hundred An example of this is the comprehensive The 2016 laws, Public The MPSC, the Public Service Commission 21 technical staff, worked with stakeholders after the 22 legislation was passed to set up the parameters for how 23 we should consider different options and conduct these 24 proceedings, they also established a filing schedule. 25 we've had a number of cases; we recently approved Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 So 8 1 Consumers Energy's Integrated Resource Plan on June 7, so 2 just this month, and then we have other cases involving 3 utilities in the Upper Peninsula that are also pending in 4 addition to DTE's. 5 Again, these plans examine options for 6 meeting customer demand. 7 environmental impacts, and other factors. 8 have a staff presentation to go into more detail about 9 DTE's proposal, the process, and the decision criteria 10 We consider costs, reliability, And we will that the Commission is subject to under the law. 11 I just want to stress that Integrated 12 Resource Plans are not a one-size-fits-all approach, so 13 while we look holistically at the state and how we're 14 going to meet our energy needs in the future, there is 15 nuance for particular utilities, the types of generation 16 they currently have, and what sort of needs going 17 forward. 18 the public to get a sense of the sentiments and thoughts 19 of how the public wants the utility to operate and what 20 sort of sources of power they have going forward. 21 thank you all for joining us, it's great to see this 22 turnout. 23 So it's important for us to take comment from So I also just want to thank the college 24 here, Wayne Community College, for providing these 25 facilities, they're really quite ideal, and appreciate Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 9 1 their support of us. 2 I also just want to note that we have 3 formal proceedings under way at the Public Service 4 Commission with expert witnesses that testify on the 5 issues in this case, in the Integrated Resource Plan, and 6 conduct an assessment and review of the various 7 assumptions and results, and this includes the Public 8 Service Commission's technical staff. 9 case, for example, we had about 19 staff witnesses that In the Consumers' 10 addressed various aspects of the plan, so there's an 11 extensive process that goes into it. 12 before an administrative law judge, and the Public 13 Service Commission will issue a decision in this case in, 14 it's 300 days from the date of filing, which is later 15 this fall. 16 The hearing is And I just want to, before I turn it 17 over, Cathy Cole is an engineer on our staff and directs 18 our Strategic Operations Group, she's going to give the 19 presentation before we get started and take public 20 comments. 21 have in the room, many in the back, and helped on the way 22 in with the registrations. 23 their hand. 24 card, or want additional information, please reach out to 25 our staff. But I want to just acknowledge the staff we If staff just wants to waive If you have any questions, you didn't get a We also have staff from the Department of Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 10 1 Environment, Great Lakes, and Energy that are also here 2 and available to assist. 3 And before I turn over to Cathy, I just 4 want each of my fellow Commissioners to make brief 5 introductions. 6 MR. SAARI: Thank you. My name is Norm 7 Saari, I have been a Commissioner for four years. 8 Previously I had clerked for ten years in the state 9 legislature in the Governor's office, and prior to that I 10 11 worked for an outstate utility for three decades. The reason we're here today is because 12 the way the Commission operates best is in a 13 participation mode. 14 discussion and dialogue, the Commissioners, it's an open 15 record and not all parties to the case are here, so 16 anything we say can't be considered because not all 17 parties are here. 18 day is broken into two sessions, we'll take a little 19 break after the first session, and we're certainly around 20 to talk as much as we can during that period of time. 21 As much as we'd like to engage in So we're available, I know that this But I can tell you how gratifying it is 22 to see this audience here. A year ago we had the public 23 meeting for Consumers Energy's IRP in Grand Rapids, there 24 were less than a dozen members of the public there. 25 month ago we had a public meeting in Escanaba in the Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 A 11 1 Upper Peninsula for UPPCO, Upper Peninsula Power Company, 2 we had about 25 members of the public there. 3 you, Detroiters, for coming out. 4 So thank I went Pasteur Elementary School, so. 5 It's important, never let it be said that your voices are 6 not going to be heard or should not be heard, that's why 7 we're here, and we won't leave until you people say that 8 you've told us all that you want to tell us under the 9 time limits that we have available. 10 11 So thank you for your participation today. MR. SCRIPPS: My name is Dan Scripps, I'm 12 the third of the three Public Service Commissioners. 13 Norm's been here for four years, I've been here for four 14 months, so I was appointed earlier this year. 15 background, I'm an attorney, I served one term in the 16 Michigan House, and most recently was the policy program 17 director for a group called The Energy Foundation 18 covering 13 states in the midwest and plains working on a 19 variety of issues, including working to double regional 20 grant-making to organizations working at the intersection 21 of climate and equity. 22 I am really happy to be here. My We are 23 based in Lansing, as is most of state government, but I 24 think it's important that we also from time to time get 25 out of Lansing and have the opportunity to hear directly Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 12 1 from the people, from the people who are most affected by 2 the plan put forward and by the decisions we make, and to 3 that end, I'm particularly happy to see so many young 4 people here today, the folks who brought their kids with 5 them, it's really important because it's really -- this 6 is a long-term plan and it's their future that we're 7 talking about. 8 pleased to be here and look forward to hearing what all 9 of you have to say. So I'll stop my remarks there, but I am 10 MS. TALBERG: 11 MS. COLE: So Cathy Cole. Thank you so much everyone for 12 turning out tonight, this is an excellent turnout, we're 13 so happy that you're here. 14 Before we get started with the public 15 comment, we're going to take just a few minutes to talk 16 about Integrated Resource Plans and what they are and 17 DTE's filing as well. 18 turn this on -- the Public Service Commission: 19 mission of the Public Service Commission is to protect 20 the public by ensuring safe, reliable, and accessible 21 energy and telecommunications services at reasonable 22 rates for all of Michigan's residents. 23 And to start things off -- I'll The So tonight we're going to talk about 24 Integrated Resource Plans, what they are, what they 25 include, and we're going to talk about DTE's filing just Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 13 1 a little bit, as well as the review process that takes 2 place before the Commission, and then we're going to hear 3 from all of you. 4 If you would like to speak tonight and you have not 5 filled out a comment card, there are cards at the back 6 table, we need you to fill out a card so that the Judge 7 will be able to call you up to speak. 8 to submit written comments, there's ways that you can do 9 that, too, they have the information at the back table 10 That's really the purpose for tonight. If you would like for that as well. 11 So an Integrated Resource Plan is a 12 long-term plan, it outlines the strategy for how an 13 electric utility is going to serve its customers, and 14 according to the Michigan statute, it's over the next 5, 15 10, and 15 years. 16 in this plan right now, and it's supposed to outline how 17 they will provide reliable, cost-effective electric 18 service to their customers while addressing risks and 19 uncertainties inherent in the utility industry. 20 So they're making long-term decisions So risks and uncertainties. There's 21 risks with things that are going to change between now 22 and the next 15 years, whether that's related to advances 23 in technologies that don't exist today that may exist at 24 some point in the future, or if it's fuel prices or load 25 growth or the adoption of electric vehicles, there are Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 14 1 lots of different things that could make things change 2 over the next 15 years, that's what's meant by addressing 3 the risks and the uncertainties that are inherent in the 4 plan. 5 There are IRP application filing 6 requirements, and that includes things that the utilities 7 are supposed to include in their application, the 8 supporting and expert witness testimony, and any exhibits 9 and the workpapers. The filing requirements include all 10 of these things you see on the screen, like their 11 existing and planned renewable energy, their existing and 12 planned new generation, their demand-side resources, 13 electric transmission alternatives that may be used to 14 help serve the customers, energy waste reduction, which 15 is another term for energy efficiency; they also have to 16 include information about reliability, which is ensuring 17 that they're going to be able to serve all of the 18 customers all hours of the day and night, including the 19 peak when the demand is at the highest point, as well as 20 environmental regulations. 21 to supply information regarding the environmental 22 regulations is that the current law actually specifies 23 that the Department of Environmental Quality, which is 24 now the Department of the Environment, Great Lakes, and 25 Energy, and Brianna is here in the back of the room from One of the reasons they have Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 15 1 the EGLE, Department of Environment, Great Lakes, Energy, 2 they review the IRP application and all of the supporting 3 testimony and workpapers to make sure that they're going 4 to be able to comply with all existing and proposed 5 environmental regulations at both the state and federal 6 level. 7 So these application requirements were 8 developed through a stakeholder process in 2017. There 9 were five stakeholder meetings held, there were two 10 rounds of informal comments, and there was one round of 11 formal comments and reply comments directly to the 12 Commission in the docket that informed all of the 13 information that has to be included in an Integrated 14 Resource Plan application and filing from a utility. 15 PA 341, Section 16, which is the law that 16 outlines the IRP provisions, includes a bunch of specific 17 things that the utilities have to include, and part of 18 what they have to include are required modeling scenarios 19 and sensitivities as approved by the Commission. 20 are different visions of the future. 21 These So the first one that was developed is 22 called Business as Usual, and it just assumes that 23 tomorrow is going to be pretty much the same as today, 5 24 years from now is going to be pretty much the same as 25 today, and so is 10 years from now and 15 years from now, Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 16 1 both with the fuel prices, the load growth, the different 2 types of resource technologies that are available, so it 3 does not make any assumptions about advances in 4 technology or changes in prices. 5 quo. 6 Pretty much the status Emerging Technologies is a completely 7 different scenario where a 35-percent cost reduction is 8 assumed for emerging technologies, and that includes 9 things like energy efficiency, demand response, 10 small-scale solar, large-scale solar, lots of different 11 things, distributed energy resources. 12 Technologies has prescribed cost reductions that they 13 have to model, assuming that that would be a possibility 14 that could happen in the future to see how that would 15 affect the plants going forward. 16 So the Emerging The High Market Price Variant is a 17 scenario that was developed just for the Upper Peninsula 18 utilities, and the reason that that one is for the Upper 19 Peninsula is that they tend to import a lot of their 20 resources from Wisconsin, they don't own a lot of their 21 own resources in the U.P., so they have a special 22 scenario looking at changes in market prices. 23 Environmental Policy is a scenario that 24 was developed to look at a hard cap on carbon emissions, 25 and the hard cap that is included in the requirements for Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 17 1 the Environmental Policy scenario is a 30-percent 2 reduction in carbon from 2005 levels by 2030. 3 So these scenarios were developed through 4 a stakeholder process as well. There were actually nine 5 different subcommittee workgroups that helped develop the 6 scenarios and the sensitivities and all of the different 7 modeling parameters; that was done through 13 8 stakeholders meetings, consultation with Lawrence 9 Berkeley National Laboratory, and then after they were 10 developed, there was three public hearings that were held 11 across the state to take comments from the public on 12 these required scenarios and sensitivities. 13 The other thing that's important to know 14 is that these were developed in 2017, and the IRP law 15 includes a requirement that they be refreshed, redone, 16 and then that whole stakeholder process and public 17 comment period happens again every five years, at least 18 every five years because the world is changing around us 19 and we need to be able to change what we're planning for 20 at the same time, so that will be coming up in a couple 21 more years, we'll start working on revising those 22 required scenarios and sensitivities. 23 So let's talk about the IRP process. It 24 starts with an application from the utility with their 25 proposed plan going forward, and it talks about how they Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 18 1 develop that plan, all the modeling they did, lots of 2 expert witness testimony. 3 allowed for people to intervene and become official 4 parties to the case. 5 parties to the case, they are allowed to submit 6 testimony. 7 DTE's already filed, and we're right here, we're in 8 between the filing and the staff and intervenor 9 testimony, and I think the staff and intervenor testimony There is a time that is When they do become initial [sic] So where we are right now in the process, 10 is due the third week of July. 11 through some legal briefs and things that happen after 12 the testimony is filed, and eventually there will be a 13 decision from an administrative law judge. 14 So it will continue After that, the Commission is supposed to 15 issue an order within 300 days on DTE's plan. They have 16 three options: 17 the IRP; or they can suggest changes to the IRP. 18 IRP is approved by the Commission, it includes 19 preapproval for the recovery of costs for resources that 20 are included in the first three years of the Integrated 21 Resource Plan. 22 in the law where DTE could then resubmit another 23 application within 60 days, and then there's a short 24 turnaround time to have another process to review and 25 consider it for approval. They can approve the IRP; they can deny If the If they deny the IRP, there's provisions If the Commission wants to Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 19 1 submit changes to an IRP, the law prescribes 30 days to 2 submit with changes, and then there's another 30 days to 3 review those changes and issue a final order within 360 4 days. 5 something that enables the Commission to make its 6 decisions, and it's something that we have to follow. This entire process is laid out in the law, it's 7 Also laid out in the statute are the 8 review criteria for an IRP. So the MPSC, the 9 Commissioners sitting right here, must determine whether 10 an electric utility's IRP is the most reasonable and 11 prudent means of meeting energy and capacity needs by 12 considering whether the plan appropriately balances all 13 of the following: 14 Resource adequacy. So resource adequacy 15 means do they have enough resources between supply-side 16 resources and demand-side resources to meet the summer 17 peak load, which is when all the customers have their air 18 conditioning turned on to the max, and then they need to 19 have a little bit of buffer above that to meet a planning 20 reserve margin. 21 adequacy requirements. 22 23 24 25 So they have to be able to meet resource They have to comply with all applicable environmental regulations. There are specific provisions in the law related to competitive pricing. Any new supply-side Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 20 1 resource that is proposed within the first three years of 2 the plan must go out for a request for proposals, an RFP, 3 which is another way of saying they have to go out and 4 get bids for it. 5 Reliability. So resource adequacy is 6 sort of like reliability, but reliability is all hours of 7 the year; they need to be able to supply energy to their 8 customers all the time, enough supply to do that. 9 Commodity price risks. 10 know, when I started with the Commission several years 11 ago, it was somewhat volatile; it's been lower in price 12 right now, but whether or not it's going to stay that 13 way, we don't really know. 14 materials prices, things like the tariffs going on at the 15 federal level, there's lots of different things that 16 could bring risk to the price of a project. 17 Natural gas, you So fuel prices, construction Diversification of generation supply. So 18 that's important because they need to serve all the 19 customers all the time, they need to make sure that if 20 all of a sudden there was no more natural gas for 21 whatever reason, that they would still be able to serve 22 all of their customers; and if, for instance, they only 23 had natural gas generation or if they had a significant 24 amount of natural gas generation without anything else, 25 then they would be at risk. So diversity of generation Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 21 1 supply, having a good mix of different things so that if 2 one thing is it not available, there are lots of other 3 things that they can use to serve their customers. 4 And then whether the proposed levels of 5 peak load load reduction and energy waste reduction are 6 reasonable and cost effective. 7 So the Commission has to consider a lot 8 of different things when they're reviewing an IRP and 9 deciding whether or not it should be approved. 10 DTE filed their IRP with the Commission 11 on March 29. 12 MPSC's website, the E-dockets tab under the Case No. 13 20471, or you can access the application right here with 14 these QR codes with your phone. 15 QR codes, the application is 1,300 pages long, so it's 16 divided into two files just due to file size. 17 You're able to access that filing at the The reason there's two So after they filed, there was a time 18 where people could submit interventions to the case. All 19 of these different parties that you see on the screen 20 have intervened in the case. 21 intervenors, and they represent all different types of 22 interests. 23 the interests of everyone in the state of Michigan, ABATE 24 represents large business customers, we have lots of 25 environmental and renewable support here, we have There's 18 different There is the Attorney General representing Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 22 1 transmission and public power as well. 2 So at the same time that DTE filed their 3 IRP, they also publicly announced carbon reduction goals. 4 They are planning to reduce their carbon level from 2005 5 levels by 50 percent by 2030, so that's above and beyond 6 what's prescribed in the Commission's Environmental 7 Policy scenario. 8 80-percent reduction by 2040, and they're primarily doing 9 that by retiring coal plants early. They've also committed publicly to an They're retiring the 10 St. Clair Power Plant in 2022, River Rouge is going to be 11 converted to natural gas in 2020, and the Trenton Power 12 Plant will be retired in 2022. 13 So prior to the IRP, this was in 2018, 14 DTE filed an application for approval the Blue Water 15 Energy Center. 16 April of 2018, they broke ground on the project this 17 year, they just came in and gave a status review of the 18 project. 19 1,150 megawatts, it's supposed to be operational in 2022. 20 So that was already approved, but it is mentioned in 21 their plan. It was approved by the Commission in It is a natural-gas-fired power plant, 22 And in that approval of that natural-gas- 23 fired power plant, the Commission requested some specific 24 things of DTE in this IRP case. 25 Company include an additional scenario that included only They requested that the Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 23 1 energy efficiency, renewable energy, demand response, 2 storage, and other non-fossil fuel options, ramping up 3 over the years preceding 2029, and they also required DTE 4 to provide an updated rate impact analysis of that 5 proposed gas plant. 6 So moving on to their IRP filing. DTE 7 has included the required scenarios, which was Business 8 as Usual, Emerging Technology, and the Environmental 9 Policy. These -- information was taken directly from 10 their application. 11 Scenario, and the main difference is that they utilized 12 their own gas price forecast, and they incorporated the 13 DTE carbon reduction targets that we just talked about, 14 and also their current plan to retire some of those coal 15 plants early. 16 They also included a DTE Reference They did a lot of modeling, and what 17 we're showing here on the screen from their application 18 is some of the modeling output. 19 one of these scenarios, they looked at three different 20 levels of energy waste reduction or energy efficiency. 21 So in the Environmental Policy case, with 1 1/2-percent 22 energy efficiency, the model told them that they needed 23 216 megawatts of demand response and 3,300 megawatts of 24 wind to meet their needs in 2029 to 2030. 25 increased this 1 1/2-percent energy efficiency up to For instance, in each Metro Court Reporters, Inc. If they 248.360.8865 24 1 2 percent, then they needed only 1,050 megawatts of wind. 2 So that's what all this means. 3 case, with 1 1/2-percent energy efficiency, they would 4 need to build a 414-megawatt natural gas combined-cycle, 5 and have 259 megawatts of demand response. 6 all the way up to 2 1/2-percent energy efficiency, all 7 they would build is one single 414-megawatt combined- 8 cycle turbine. In their DTE Reference If they went 9 So lots of different situations were 10 analyzed, and it led them to this proposed course of 11 action. 12 renewable energy, such as an 11-megawatt pilot program of 13 solar plus storage, an additional 693 megawatts of wind 14 energy, plus an expansion of their Voluntary Green 15 Pricing Program, which would be more wind in the range of 16 465 megawatts to 715 megawatts. 17 with the Voluntary Green Pricing Program, it's something 18 that the large customers request, it says I want green 19 energy, and so they're adding green energy specifically 20 for those customers. 21 The proposed course of action includes new If you're not familiar Coal plant retirements, we just went over 22 some of their coal plant retirements, and they're also 23 including increases in energy waste reduction or energy 24 efficiency up to 1.65 percent in 2020, 1.75 percent in 25 2021; the law only requires 1 percent. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. They're 248.360.8865 25 1 increasing their demand response programs to 2 859 megawatts by 2024; that's a substantial amount, 3 almost as much as that gas plant they're building. 4 that in a nutshell is what DTE is proposing in its IRP. 5 We've come to the time where we want to So 6 hear from you, we'd like to hear your public comments. 7 And if you'd like to submit written comments, this is how 8 you're going to do it via e-mail. 9 that you can pick up on the back table if you don't have 10 time to write all this down where you can then go ahead 11 and submit your public comments in writing. 12 13 There's also cards I'm going to turn it over to the ALJ now so we can hear from you. 14 JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Cathy. Before I 15 begin the public comments, I would just like to make a 16 few points. 17 to the Commissioners. 18 indicated, the Commission will be rendering the final 19 decision in this case, so they can not take questions 20 during the public comments. 21 reporter is transcribing this meeting, so as I didn't do, 22 please speak up. 23 provide your name and your city of residence, and limit 24 the comments to the matters raised in DTE's application. 25 And finally, I'd like to note that the notice indicates a First, I ask that you address your comments Second, as Commissioner Saari As indicated, the court The speakers, if they would, could you Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 26 1 five-minute period for each statement. 2 speakers understand that we have a large turnout today, 3 the Commissioners want to hear from everyone, so if they 4 could be aware of that, we would appreciate it. 5 always, if you so choose, as Cathy indicated, you can 6 file your public comments on the E-docket. 7 8 I ask that the And as And so with that, we will call up the first speaker, and that is Jane Garcia. 9 MS. GARCIA: O.K. Buenos traves, 10 Commissioners. 11 you very much for coming to Detroit. Welcome to all our 12 Michiganders and my fellow residents. Detroit is always 13 left out, and we appreciate you taking that extra time, 14 you don't know. 15 Thank you very much, Judge Mack, thank LA SED is the oldest Hispanic advocacy 16 agency in southwest Detroit, servicing the metropolitan 17 area for over 50 years. 18 Michigan energy future, we really do. 19 vital importance to clean, affordable, reliable energy 20 for everyone, especially people of low income. 21 is that too loud? 22 We care very much about the We understand the I just -- I'll step back a little bit. I'm here today to support DTE. Their 23 plan to promote fairness, inclusion for everyone, the 24 clean air through their new technology, expansion of 25 renewable plan to benefit everyone throughout Michigan. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 27 1 Climate change must be combated, but we 2 need to make it transparent for everyone, and that's why 3 we need to stress the most vulnerable population and how 4 they're going to service them. 5 in this area. Their plan benefits not only residents, 6 but business. I can't begin to tell you how important 7 that is to the businesses with everything going up, they 8 always talk about the energy. 9 going to come out, we only had 78 days of sunshine last I appreciate DTE's focus I'm not sure how solar is 10 year, but I know that the wind is something I think 11 people are really looking at for Michigan. 12 that you all will support the plan. 13 gracias for the opportunity to speak to you tonight. 14 Gracias. 15 16 17 JUDGE MACK: I'm hoping And (inaudible) Thank you, Ms. Garcia. Next, Bridget Vial. MS. VIAL: Hi, everyone. Thanks for the 18 opportunity to talk today. 19 resident of Royal Oak, an environmental engineer. 20 My name is Bridget, I am a I've been working in southwest Detroit 21 for the last several years, and a close colleague of mine 22 and a good friend had a real struggle with DTE the last 23 couple of years, she had an energy bill that was in the 24 multiple thousands of dollars and was repeatedly 25 struggling to work with DTE to get someone to help her Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 28 1 find out why her bill was so high and also to get on a 2 payment plan, you know, be able to pay it off, and she 3 had such a frustrating time every time she was talking to 4 people at DTE, she was talking to someone else who didn't 5 understand what she was going through, and was bounced 6 around from one person to the next. 7 part of southwest Detroit where the trains that carry the 8 coal are stopping cars for 30 or 35 minutes as they're 9 trying to get to their house, and I have been sitting in And this is in a 10 front of those trains and watching the coal and the 11 particulate fall off those train tracks; it's a part of 12 southwest Detroit where the power was off for three days 13 last winter. 14 And so I want to say, as a resident of 15 Royal Oak, I don't have to worry about breathing in the 16 effects of the energy that I consume, but I don't want to 17 consume energy that creates health hazards, I mean a real 18 health liability for people in black and brown 19 communities here in Detroit or in anywhere, I mean 20 wherever we're building a new natural gas plant as well, 21 I don't want to consume natural gas that was fracked in 22 Pennsylvania or other parts of Michigan that's now 23 polluting those groundwater sources. 24 And frankly, it's hard to understand why 25 we're not moving more aggressively towards solar in this Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 29 1 IRP that DTE has put forward when, according to the 2 Energy Information Agency, I mean varying by region, in 3 2023 solar and wind energy is expected to be at the same 4 price or lower than combined-cycle natural gas; why 5 should we be paying a premium for solar through the 6 Voluntary Green Pricing Program, and why aren't we seeing 7 the same investments, why isn't DTE making the same move 8 toward solar that Consumers is making. 9 viable. It's clearly Consumers is looking to add 5,000 megawatts; 10 that's like 10 times what DTE is talking about adding by 11 2030. 12 take seriously the effects of climate change, and it 13 doesn't really take seriously the viability of renewable 14 energy, and I want to urge the Commission to send DTE 15 back to the drawing board and work on a plan that is 16 going to work for us in the future. So it seems to me that this plan doesn't really 17 JUDGE MACK: Thank you. Thank you, 18 Ms. Vial. If anyone is reading from prepared remarks and 19 if they are so inclined, if they could share it with the 20 court reporter so the transcript accurately represents 21 what they're saying, I know she would appreciate it. 22 23 Next we have Emily, and the name rather smudged, Pre -- 24 MS. PREHODA: 25 JUDGE MACK: Prehoda. Prehoda. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 30 1 MS. PREHODA: Prehoda, P-r-e-h-o-d-a, and 2 Muskegon, Michigan. 3 you for holding this event, this is a great 4 opportunity -- 5 6 UNIDENTIFIED: please. Thank Could you move the mic, I can't hear you. 7 8 Good evening, Commissioners. MS. PREHODA: Oh, yes. Thank you. Is that better? 9 UNIDENTIFIED: 10 MS. PREHODA: 11 behalf of the GLREA and Chart House Energy. 12 perspective, DTE's practices with the existing laws and 13 policies favors a self-serving future that is reliant on 14 fossil-fuel burning technologies, while simultaneously 15 thwarting competition which burdens their customers. 16 we want to search for efficient, lower-cost energy 17 solutions for utility customers. 18 Yes. O.K. I am speaking on And from our So DTE Energy's IRP is neither prudent and 19 reasonable, nor will its outcomes on rates be fair and 20 reasonable. 21 third-party sources of energy through PURPA and net 22 metering, DTE is not providing the lowest cost service to 23 its customers. 24 energy builds out to third parties also results in higher 25 costs to future and current ratepayers. By refusing to incorporate and support DTE Energy's lack of bidding future Metro Court Reporters, Inc. The recent DTE 248.360.8865 31 1 rate case resulted in a decreased outflow rate of 7.477 2 cents per kilowatt hour. 3 and reasonable rate, DTE should no longer limit the 4 amount of DG systems. 5 As this is supposedly a fair DTE Energy's IRP represents an adherence 6 to the traditional utility model with little effort to 7 embrace the changing times of favoring decentralized 8 generation and control. 9 639 megawatts of wind and only 11 megawatts of solar, DTE plans to build and own 10 none of which will be bid to third parties; but they do 11 plan to build and own more costly and risky gas plants in 12 addition to the 1,100-megawatt plant currently under 13 construction. 14 in the coming years. 15 continue to be cost-competitive with gas, yet DTE chooses 16 to continue investing in gas plants rather than a true 17 investment in affordable solar energy to complement those 18 wind resources. 19 Power Pricing Program and charge smaller customers a 20 premium, which in turn supports DTE Energy investments in 21 wind and solar, allowing them to double dip on cost 22 recovery. 23 customers as larger customers can purchase green power at 24 cheaper rates compared to those smaller customers. 25 DTE plans a big rollout of wind resources This is great as wind and solar DTE plans to offer a Voluntary Green This represents discrimination against smaller DTE Energy hand picks factors that are Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 32 1 unfavorable to renewables and storage in future modeling 2 scenarios. 3 manipulate a future that favors natural gas plants. 4 Business as Usual and Emerging Technology modeling 5 scenarios report higher levelized costs of energy of 6 solar and wind compared to other trusted and utilized 7 reports, such EIA and Lazard, among other valuation 8 studies. 9 cost of natural gas than these same data sources. They utilize cost of service studies to DTE Comparatively, DTE models a lower levelized DTE 10 argues storage solutions are uneconomical, yet they 11 didn't model any ancillary services valuations when 12 modeling these storage alternatives. 13 DTE's apparent manipulations of federal 14 and state laws create an uncertain future for the third- 15 party solar industry. 16 itself. 17 and cost recovery, thus removing some regulatory power 18 from the MPSC. 19 capacity need and therefore should not be required to 20 address PURPA; however, they are closing almost 21 2,000 megawatts in the next three years, and more in 22 coming years. 23 developers by not seeking out cheaper forms of renewable 24 energy; plus DTE is planning a pathway to 414 megawatts 25 in additional gas plant capacity. The IRP process is manipulation The three- to five-year window locks in the plan DTE Energy argues they do not have a This manipulation hurts ratepayers and Metro Court Reporters, Inc. This questions the 248.360.8865 33 1 notion they do not have a capacity need. DTE has 2 unapproved solar interconnection application requests 3 stretching back to February of 2017. 4 no penalty or fine for meeting the deadlines -- for not 5 meeting the deadlines set by the MPSC. 6 a manipulation that threatens the advanced energy 7 industry. 8 through proposed changes to the standard offer contract 9 and terms. There is currently These delays are And finally, DTE Energy manipulates PURPA DTE proposes shortening the PURPA contract to 10 ten years and reducing capacity limits to 150 kW. 11 manipulation will make PURPA contracts less economical 12 for developers, while simultaneously being more 13 economical for DTE. 14 This Instead of the apparent manipulation of 15 the system, we ask that DTE works with the MPSC and 16 third-party renewable developers to walk the walk to 17 leading the way to a cleaner, safer, and smarter energy 18 future, which they advance as their top aspiration. 19 Thank you very much. 20 21 JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Ms. Prehoda. Next, Rob Rafson. 22 MR. RAFSON: Good evening. I'm Rob 23 Rafson, Chart House Energy, a renewable energy developer 24 in the state. 25 an expert witness on their cases. I'm also here on behalf of GLREA, and I'm Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 34 1 I think it's important -- I appreciate 2 the Commission taking the time and effort to listen to 3 all of us out here and to understand what our concerns 4 are. 5 in general is that it's very difficult for us to 6 understand some of these plans and resources, and I hope 7 that you guys work with DTE to produce documents that are 8 simple, understandable, they reach out and get public 9 acceptance, they're as free from controversy as possible, 10 they produce an effective yield for total revenues under 11 the fair returns standard, and that they avoid undue 12 discrimination. 13 I think one of my primary issues with the process Under the Act, under the Public Service 14 Act 259 and 341, it promotes clean and renewable energy, 15 diverse resources, and provides energy security through 16 indigenous resources, which is also renewable energy, and 17 encourages private investment for renewable energy and 18 waste reduction. 19 Act's obligations, and I mean that's a real problem. 20 DTE's IRP fails to meet most of the I think it would be -- PURPA developers 21 and behind-the-meter customers could help us rapidly 22 switch to renewable energy to produce diverse, 23 indigenous, private, which is always cheaper than public, 24 power generation, cleaner, and create more and better 25 good paying jobs here in the state. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. By DTE's almost 248.360.8865 35 1 exclusive interest in fossil fuel power generation and 2 some wind, which they own, it will produce less good 3 paying jobs for people in the communities. 4 The legis -- the IRP also doesn't even 5 address any of the issues under PURPA, which is like the 6 gorilla in the room, because these contractors and 7 developers have a legal, enforceable obligation to 8 address those. 9 the week before Consumers has addressed the PURPA issue, 10 it is unfortunate that DTE has not taken that same stand 11 and moved forward on it. 12 for a PURPA-developed power plant than anything that the 13 utilities would have. 14 through a series of different ways. 15 the minimum 1-percent net metering obligation, it does 16 not include or address storage. I was thrilled to see that last week or It is cheaper, always cheaper The IRP fails to address PURPA It fails to raise 17 I saw recently the MISO planner talking 18 about storage, and he says it's sort of like Pinocchio. 19 We've been playing with this toy, storage, for many 20 years, and finally under the FERC 841, they suddenly now 21 have to deal with storage and the pricing thereof, and so 22 now it's a boy that they have to address and bring into 23 society and figure out how to integrate it. 24 Lastly, I'd like to say that the, they 25 did not address EV, electric vehicle charging, which I Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 36 1 think will increase capacity by at least 1 percent. 2 I think it's important that you hold DTE's feet to fire 3 and include language that would automatically release 4 capacity to developers and customers to build their own 5 renewable energy if they fail to meet the objective -- or 6 the parts of their plan. 7 8 Thank you. JUDGE MACK: Next. And Thank you, Mr. Rafson. Next, Pastor John Hearn. 9 PASTOR HEARN: Good afternoon. I'm 10 Pastor John Hearn representing Christian Faith Ministries 11 of Garden City. 12 dedicated to four key principles: 13 word and to equip the saints and to demonstrate the power 14 thereof; additionally, to impact the world. 15 At Christian Faith, we are a ministry That is to teach the One of the roles of our church is to make 16 sure that the spiritual and emotional and physical needs 17 of the community are met. 18 principles that, and the policies that allow for reliable 19 and affordable energy for the people that I service and 20 the role that I occupy. 21 outreach, I've been in areas where energy has not been 22 very reliable, has not been very affordable. 23 a great deal of pleasure every time I come back home 24 knowing that when I can flip the switch, the light is 25 going to come on. Speaking of, in support of the My church has an international Metro Court Reporters, Inc. It gives me 248.360.8865 37 1 DTE has been the primary supplier of the 2 energy for our area for a number of years, and with 3 regards to what they are asking you for and the plan 4 they've put forward, it addresses the needs, the needs of 5 our community in the respect that we all want clean air, 6 we want a healthy environment to live in, and they put 7 forth a plan that will convert their energy capacity to 8 an area where all of us can be happy. 9 It's been said to me in the past, it's 10 not easy to turn the battleship around in the middle of a 11 narrow river. 12 while for them to shift their capacity, and we need to 13 give them the time to do it. 14 ignoring the environmental impact, they put a plan in 15 place that will address that impact and reduce their 16 carbon footprint, and that's something that we are all in 17 favor of. 18 process, it's -- I'm glad of the fact that they are 19 keeping things in place that will ensure that in this 20 transition, we will still have a reliable source of 21 energy. 22 all of their plants suddenly and we are at the whims of 23 the wind and the sun. 24 and the sun doesn't shine every day, so we have to 25 invest; and as they are making this transition, we need DTE is a big company, it's going to take a And it's not that they're And in doing this, in going through this I'd rather them not just flip the switch off on The wind doesn't blow every day Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 38 1 to make sure that the fail-safes are in place so that we 2 all can enjoy the lifestyles that we have come to enjoy. 3 4 So with that being said, I stand in favor of their proposal. 5 6 Thank you. JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Pastor Hearn. Next, Justin Schott. 7 MR. SCHOTT: 8 Commissioners. 9 from the people today. 10 Good afternoon, Thank you for coming to Detroit to hear So in looking at the definition of what 11 an Integrated Resource Plan needs to do, it needs to seek 12 to fully maximize potential benefits to ratepayers in 13 lowering the utility bills, and the Commission needs to 14 consider factors that include competitive pricing and 15 diversity of generation supply in its decision on the 16 proposed IRP. 17 looking at these I think it's important to look at the 18 record of DTE and its commitment to long-term 19 affordability and reliability. 20 So these are areas of discretion, and in So DTE, coincident with its approval of 21 the Blue Water Gas Plant, received an approval to 22 increase its residential rates by 8.7 percent, the 23 increase for residents was double that of what it was to 24 commercial customers, and 3 1/2 times the increase to 25 industrial customers. Among all the states, Michigan now Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 39 1 ranks near the bottom, at 41st according to MPSC's own 2 scorecard, for the cost of residential electric rates. 3 It's also 45th in the gap between residential rates and 4 commercial and industrial rates. 5 bottom in how much of the burden of the costs get put on 6 the backs of residents, especially low-income residents. 7 These rate increases come on the backs of other recent 8 increases: 9 February 2017, and 9.9-percent increase in gas rates in 10 December 2016, and an 11.2-percent increase in electric 11 rates in 2015, at which time the commercial rates only 12 rose 3.4 percent and primary rates actually decreased by 13 2.3 percent. 14 that DTE continues to invest in, the burden of those 15 costs continue to fall on low-income residents and DTE's 16 customers. 17 So just five from the 1.4 percent in April 2018, 4 percent in So it seems that all the gas infrastructure So now looking at the IRP plan that 18 they've put forward and its proposed course of action, 19 DTE is coming at the bottom of what's possible here in 20 terms of energy efficiency, in terms of renewable 21 generation, and in terms of enabling distributed 22 generation, which would increase resilience to the grid 23 and enable everyday residents and customers to take part 24 in the economic benefits of a solar energy economy. 25 DTE has about a quarter of its business interests are in Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 And 40 1 a natural gas infrastructure that are outside of 2 providing electric and gas service to Michigan residents, 3 these would clearly be benefited by the Integrated 4 Resource Plan that DTE put forward if they're able to 5 again ramp up demand for that, the gas that it's bringing 6 from Pennsylvania and Ohio into Michigan. 7 DTE has also actively campaigned, 8 bringing dark money into campaigns like the Michigan 9 Energy Promise and the Alliance for Michigan Energy, 10 targeting especially communities of color, asking them to 11 sign on to support a campaign that many have been 12 approached without full understanding. 13 least one organization that's been listed against its 14 will on this list of allies. 15 Commission has also advised Consumers Energy to stop 16 putting dark money into these campaigns as a result of 17 the support against Gary Glenn in the most recent 18 election, so this is very political. 19 business interests for DTE in supporting a future that is 20 wholly dependent here on fossil fuels and leaning toward 21 additional natural gas generation after we've already had 22 1,100 megawatts recently approved. 23 I know of at The Michigan Public Service And there are clear So it's hard to see how this is the most 24 reasonable and prudent path forward for Michiganders, and 25 I think under this plan, low-income residents will Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 41 1 continue to suffer both the costs of the additional 2 generation as well as losing out on the [inaudible] 3 climate benefits from a clean energy future. 4 JUDGE MACK: 5 6 Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Schott. Next, Reverend Diedric Tupper. REVEREND TUPPER: Good afternoon. I just 7 wanted to say that I appreciate Michigan Public Service 8 Commission and of course Judge Wallace [sic] for allowing 9 us the opportunity to express ourselves here today. My 10 name is Reverend Diedric Tupper, that is Dittrich, like 11 Dittrich Furs, Tupper like Tupperware. 12 pleasure to be here on this evening. 13 And it's a I know that sometimes it -- we have the 14 propensity and the proclivity to move to the most easiest 15 remedy, but as my father used to say all the time, slow 16 and steady is the order of the day. 17 to -- sometimes we look for the path that's most easiest 18 to traverse and the most simplest travail, but once 19 again, slow and steady the order of the day. 20 Many times we try It seems that we desire to move in a 21 direction that will not afford us efficiency, 22 reliability, and affordability, and so I'm here today 23 because I know that DTE Energy has placed us in a 24 position where we can depend upon a diversity of energy. 25 As Dr. Hearns has indicated, we live in a wonderful state Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 42 1 called Michigan that enjoy four seasons, but we don't 2 always see the light of the sun, nor do we always enjoy 3 the coolness of the wind, so there needs to be a 4 diversity of energy in order for it to be reliable to all 5 of the residents here in Michigan. 6 I know that many times we look for the 7 easiest way out, but it takes time, as Dr. Hearns 8 indicated, it takes time to provide a reliable plan, and 9 I am 100 percent in agreement with the proposal that DTE 10 Energy has provided. 11 should be a diversity of energy. 12 depend on wind turbines, nor can we always depend on 13 solar energy, but natural gas stabilizes the system and 14 allows us to be able to depend upon an institution that 15 we have to depend upon. 16 always need the court system, but it is good to know that 17 when I need the court system, that institution is there. 18 So we have to depend on the reliability of the 19 institution that we place ourself in. 20 We must understand that there We can not always Judge Wallace [sic], I may not I just want you to know and understand 21 that I represent a group of constituents that depend on 22 the stability of the utility system. 23 pastor a church called New Faith Temple Church of God in 24 Christ. 25 Michigan and in 100 nations, including Israel, and one of It is our job -- I Our organization is throughout the state of Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 43 1 our primary purposes is to try to elevate individuals in 2 our society. 3 them with a sense of belonging. 4 provide them with lifting them out of conditions that 5 they're in. 6 life, and of course energy is part of that. 7 needs assessments and we realized through a needs 8 assessment that the first concern was job or career 9 paths, the second concern was healthcare, and the third 10 11 Part of that, part of that is to provide Part of that is to Part of that is providing them with a stable We did a concern was, believe it or not, utility energy. It is so vitally important and imperative 12 that we have a diverse plan that DTE Energy has proposed 13 to this Commission. 14 you accept the plan that has been presented to us. 15 Michigan is blessed with wind and sun, but we just cannot 16 depend on it as a totality of source for energy. 17 Receiving energy from resources like hydroelectric as 18 well as natural gas undergirds, as we move towards 19 renewable energy, undergirds the system and allows me to 20 have confidence when I get home that I can hit that 21 switch and the lights will come on. 22 And I beseech you even on today that A diverse mix of energy resources also 23 protects customers' affordability. I want you to 24 understand two things: 25 Affordability and dependability is essential for us as Affordability and dependability. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 44 1 Michigan residents, customers' affordability. 2 community wants a cleaner environment, but we also want 3 affordability. 4 gets a reliable energy system along with access to 5 affordable renewable energy and a path and a timeline 6 that's essential for our citizens. 7 We also want dependability. My DTE's plans I'm just curious, I have not had an 8 opportunity to look at the proposal submitted by 9 Consumers Energy, but I'm just curious as it relate to 10 what their proposal is compared to DTE Energy's proposal 11 regarding aggressive renewable energy. 12 for this time on tonight. 13 14 JUDGE MACK: Thank you so much Thank you, Reverend Tupper. Next, Ken Zebarah. 15 MR. ZEBARAH: Thank you. Hi, good 16 afternoon. 17 in ClarkLake, and I work for Harvest Energy Solutions out 18 of Jackson, and I'm on the board of directors for GLREA. 19 Ken Zebarah, I live near Jackson, Michigan, My notes say a lot of the same things 20 that I've heard from Emily and Rob and several others, so 21 I want to kind of focus on a couple other separate topics 22 related. 23 business and a science-minded parent, I hope that you 24 can -- I hope that you guys will support the growth of 25 renewables both for economic development and job growth, But, you know, as part of a family-owned small Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 45 1 in addition to health and environmental reasons. 2 I will like -- I would remind people 3 that, the Commissioners and in the audience, that we 4 operate in about 12 states throughout the midwest, and 5 don't, do not consider solar and wind resource based on 6 how many sunny days are in the -- you have in a year. 7 operate in about 12 states, and Michigan is most of the 8 time the most cost-effective for behind-the-meter solar 9 out of the entire midwest because it's offsetting a much 10 higher rate than other states, and so I just wanted to 11 remind that. 12 We But job growth and economic development, 13 I went to Eastern Michigan and got a degree in 14 mathematics with a physics minor and another in business, 15 and Harvest Energy hired me and we were, oh, maybe 8 16 people just figuring stuff out and making stuff happen 17 and growing a business, and now 7 years later we're over 18 50 people and we are the actual boots on the ground and 19 electricians and construction crews and engineers 20 building solar arrays, not just financing and developing 21 on paper and lobbying, but we are actually building them, 22 and so it does create many jobs, and we're growing and 23 hiring like crazy. 24 development portion there that I want to keep you in mind 25 of. So there is a big economic Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 46 1 But one thing I will admit, I'm not an 2 expert on RECs. I know a bit about them, but one concern 3 that I'd like you to consider is DTE needs to -- needs to 4 consider all options for obtaining RECs, and I think 5 there are much more cost-effective ways to obtain RECs 6 and meet RPS than what they're proposing. 7 the-meter customers, and whether it's PURPA, you know, 8 new PURPA or new solar arrays or existing Category 1 and 9 Category 2 projects, probably 90 percent or more of them The behind- 10 don't sell their RECs to anybody, they're not doing 11 anything, and DTE could buy those for so cheap, for 12 almost nothing. 13 And they would -- and I think PURPA, future PURPA 14 projects would be happy to sell them for very cheap 15 because they otherwise wouldn't sell them at all, and 16 that's I think a much cheaper way than the alternatives, 17 building wind or other alternatives. 18 That is a -- they're just sitting there. Interconnections, interconnection process 19 and communication approvals, engineering studies, things 20 like that, are very lacking with DTE, especially relative 21 to Consumers Energy. 22 communicate very poorly, and it may not seem like a big 23 deal, but it affects -- it affects a lot of things; it 24 affects grant money, permitting, bank loans for solar and 25 wind projects, and so it affects a lot of things that may They take a long time and Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 47 1 not seem important. 2 REC conversation, that there is solar and wind to be 3 built out there that DTE seems to, seems to intentionally 4 delay and get in the way of. 5 And it relates here, along with the And another quick comment on with DG. A 6 1-percent cap, I don't think it's technically a cap, but 7 this 1-percent conversation for distributed generation, 8 there should be no conversation whatsoever of 1 percent, 9 it shouldn't even be a cap or a minimum or a limit or 10 anything, it shouldn't even be part of the conversation 11 because the DG tariff is meant to be fair for all 12 parties, so there should be no limitations and just let 13 it grow however it should. 14 JUDGE MACK: 15 Tony -- I'm going to butcher this -- Muhich? 16 MR. MUHICH: Muhich. 17 JUDGE MACK: Muhich. 18 MR. MUHICH: Thanks for letting me talk. 19 JUDGE MACK: Mr. Muhich, let it go. 20 MR. MUHICH: That's as loud as I get. 21 22 I'll hold the mic closer. Thank you, Mr. Zebarah. Tony Muhich. O.K. I want to have you guys put the 23 ratepayers in the forefront. This IRP submission by DTE 24 is good for their stockholder, but it puts me at risk. 25 The choices that DTE has made with this have been made Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 48 1 very differently by other utility companies. 2 For example, Northern Indiana Power 3 Company -- Power Supply Company in their IRP changed over 4 to 100-percent solar; they did this because it is cheaper 5 to run -- change -- build out solar than it is to 6 continue to run their coal plants. 7 of who is the president of that company, said: 8 conclusions to change over to solar were based solely on 9 the economics and driving for more affordable rates for Valerie Sistovaris, Our 10 the state of Indiana, and ultimately to lower the cost of 11 energy for our customers. 12 savings, there's significant health benefits to closing 13 the coal plants for people living near the coal plants. 14 And finally, closing these coal plants in northern 15 Indiana will reduce the CO2 emissions by about 90 percent 16 by 2028. 17 by 80 percent of 20 (inaudible). In addition to the cost DTE's plan will only reduce the CO2 emissions 18 THE REPORTER: 19 JUDGE MACK: O.K. MR. MUHICH: I'm sorry. 20 By 20 -- I'm sorry? Now, you really have to speak up. 21 Another energy 22 company, Xcel, said they'd close the last coal plant in 23 Minnesota by 2030. 24 Xcel, said: 25 affordable, and it's with currently available technology. Ben Fowke, who is the chairman of This goal will be easy to meet and Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 49 1 And their final goal is to meet 100-percent renewable by 2 2050. 3 Not all IRPs, though, have been pushing 4 renewable energy. Vectron South Energy submitted their 5 IRP to the Indiana Public Service Commission. 6 like DTE, was pursuing a generation strategy based on 7 natural gas, and the Indiana Power Public Service 8 Commission rejected this proposal, highlighting a 9 disjoint between the third year or longer lifetime of a Vectron, 10 major gas plant investment and the environment of rapidly 11 changing technologies for both utility and the consumer 12 side of the meter. 13 risk, the IRP was rejected and Vectron is now considering 14 additional options. 15 Due to this unreasonable financial In addition to the financial risk, 16 there's a legislative risk. 126 cities have committed to 17 100-percent renewable energy in the U.S., and 7 states, 18 districts, or territories have committed to 100-percent 19 renewable energy, and the state of New York is about to 20 commit to a net zero economy. 21 cities can do that, but I do know that DTE's IRP proposal 22 sets them up for a ten-year process that they have to 23 change; I'm going end up paying for them building out 24 their renewable energy process and also for the stranded 25 assets that they're building right now, and I want you I don't know if these Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 50 1 guys to come up and say, send them back to the drawing 2 board. Thank you. 3 4 JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Mr. Muhich. MR. FARRIS: Mark Farris, Monroe. Mark Farris. 5 I urge 6 you, the Commission, to reject the Company's plan. It's 7 inadequate, I think it's illegitimate. 8 because Detroit Edison owes $27 million in taxes in 9 Monroe County that, you know, they're not paying. I say that And, 10 you know, this is in court, the city, the county of 11 Monroe, they've chipped in a million bucks a piece, and 12 this is in court right now. 13 is illegitimate here. 14 So I think the whole process You know, like a bad neighbor, DTE is 15 there. 16 to pay their taxes. 17 them file bankruptcy, let Consumers pick up their share 18 of the market. 19 up 5,000 megawatts of solar when Edison is, you know, 20 offering what, 600-700 maybe is ridiculous. 21 They're turning a profit, yet they can't afford If they can't pay their taxes, let I mean, my gosh, for Consumers to offer You know, the issue here of the waste -- 22 of the storage, 11 megawatts; I mean that's ridiculous. 23 For solar to be, you know, a functioning, a fully 24 functioning system, you need a lot of storage. 25 course, the sun doesn't have to be shining for solar to Metro Court Reporters, Inc. And, of 248.360.8865 51 1 generate electricity. 2 For Detroit Edison, you know, they're 3 storing high-level radioactive waste on the shore of Lake 4 Erie right now. 5 when they applied for a building permit. 6 should be going up, not down. 7 gangsters, they should not have been allowed to change 8 PURPA before this process. 9 there. This was never a part of the application Their taxes You know, they're lying They've stacked the deck So, you know, at some point fresh water is going 10 to be more valuable than soil. 11 high-level radioactive waste on the shore of Lake Erie, 12 their taxes should go up. 13 14 15 For them to store radio, Thank you. JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Mr. Farris. Diane VanBuren. MS. VanBUREN: Hello. Diane VanBuren, 16 Detroit resident for, I'll admit it, 65 years, and 17 co-owner of D2 Solar located here in Detroit, a woman- 18 owned business, and a board member of Great Lakes 19 Renewable Energy Association. 20 all saying it, but thank you for coming to Detroit and 21 giving us a chance to speak our minds and to tell you our 22 story here in Detroit. 23 So thank you, again, we're We all in Detroit have had a lot of 24 challenges, and as you know, we did go through a 25 bankruptcy a few years ago, and when that happened, we Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 52 1 were forced to give up something that we had here in 2 Detroit, still do on the books, and that was our own 3 power and light company, and by doing that, we gave up 4 our voice and our authority on how we can use power and 5 have our own community solar, so now we're forced into 6 working with DTE to have community solar, and it's not in 7 the plan. 8 see it in the DTE plan. 9 I did see it in the Consumers' plan, I didn't And I hear people talking about slow and 10 steady. 11 bills, Detroit, all of the DTE region, we started paying 12 on our bills to have a renewable energy plan in place 13 then, a fee that we all paid into, and I don't believe a 14 single job came to Detroit as a result of that. 15 those jobs went to wind turbines that aren't located 16 anywhere near Detroit, and we still have the coal plant. 17 So since 2009, I think that's ten years, we've had a 18 chance to start to make the change, and we're still 19 waiting. 20 business, we're waiting for jobs, we're waiting for clean 21 air. 22 here when we look at our climate. 23 50 days? 24 have to start addressing this now, not slow and steady. 25 Remember back in 2009, we started paying on our So what are we waiting for? I think We're waiting for And frankly, our time is running out pretty quickly Why has it rained for I think it's called climate change. I think we So we have a chance now to get it right, Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 53 1 and this is a blessing that we have to do it. So the new 2 IRP plan requires DTE to commit to setting the course 3 straight, help create a more equitable system for the 4 citizens of Detroit and this region, and that -- the 5 region they serve, by the way, and that we send our 6 dollars to. 7 After the billion-dollar gas plant is built, after the 8 negotiated 9-percent increase in our utility bills, after 9 they build, is it -- I'm losing track now -- 80 megawatts And where does solar appear in the plan? 10 of solar, a hundred megawatts -- I'm sorry -- of wind 11 before they get to even a speck of solar, and yes, we do 12 have the O'Shea solar field here, but it's a speck, it's 13 a tiny bit, and there was no community benefit back to 14 Detroit for that. 15 So when I look at community benefits, I 16 want to think about solar and the opportunity for our 17 residents to participate in creating their own energy 18 from the sun that hits us every day, because even if it's 19 raining, by the way, folks, we are collecting some solar 20 power. 21 building that I own in Detroit, and between geothermal 22 and solar, I've reduced my energy cost by 60 percent. 23 makes a difference. 24 in Detroit. 25 I have a 20-kilowatt system on the roof of a It It makes a difference to everybody So Detroit deserves to have its own voice Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 54 1 in the future of our children, of our grandchildren. 2 Please help us gain the power to have community-owned 3 solar, which is not in this plan, and partnerships with 4 DTE that are real, and return the economic benefits to 5 our residents, not the DTE shareholders. 6 robust rooftop and community solar program that can be 7 showcased to other cities around the world. 8 9 Help us build a I love the reference to Indiana. Last year we looked at where does Detroit rank of cities 10 nationwide with solar per capita. We were 63rd in the 11 nation. Now, come on, they 12 have the same climate that we do. 13 They have policy that allows it, but they also have a 14 utility that encourages it. 15 more power in Detroit. Indianapolis was fourth. 16 17 Why are they fourth? So please help us create Thank you. JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Ms. VanBuren. Horace Sheffield. 18 MR. SHEFFIELD: My name is Horace 19 Sheffield. And with all due respect to my friend from 20 Monroe, I went to Hall of the Divine Child Military 21 Academy, and I appreciate his love and respect for solar 22 power, but I'm certainly not in favor of suggesting that 23 Edison should be bankrupt and be sold. 24 Detroit-based company, and that's why I'm here to support 25 what they do, because I have a, you know, history with Metro Court Reporters, Inc. Edison is a 248.360.8865 55 1 them, and I think we all have our parochial perspectives 2 so we all approach this from different ways and different 3 vantage points and somewhere along the lines we can kind 4 of mesh the differences of opinions, but not throw the 5 baby out with the bathwater. 6 DTE continues to be a reliable energy 7 provider and a positive influence in our community. We 8 have had many, many community assistance days at my 9 facility where several hundred people have been given 10 help with their bills, I've been able to interface with 11 them whenever I had issues. 12 As climate changes fuels the needs for 13 cleaner energy resources, the need for affordable energy 14 bills remains an important factor for DTE as ever. 15 plan provides a communal solution to the problem of 16 making strategic investments in renewable energy. 17 plans gets us where we need to be in mitigating climate 18 change without burdening our community with unreasonable 19 electric bills. 20 The DTE's Our community wants a cleaner 21 environment, and we're proud to see DTE retire coal 22 plants in a responsible and thoughtful way and a 23 thoughtful manner to transition to cleaner energy and 24 resources. 25 environment, but we must also protect our communities. I believe it's imperative we protect our Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 56 1 DTE has a plan to make these changes without a heavy 2 impact on our wallets. 3 lead on affordability and clean energy, our community can 4 continue to focus on effecting positive transformation. 5 I support their application before the Michigan Public 6 Service Commission. 7 8 Because of their commitment to JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Mr. Sheffield. MS. SAVOIE: Good evening. Kathryn Savoie. 9 My name is 10 Kathryn Savoie, I am a Detroit resident, and I'm a DTE 11 customer, and I'm going to speak from my heart from that 12 perspective. 13 Detroit. 14 had this opportunity, so thank you for this opportunity 15 to comment. 16 I really appreciate that you came to I think that doesn't happen enough, that we've I am an ecologist and a mother, and I am 17 really concerned about climate change. 18 following this issue for 20 years, and it just gets more 19 and more concerning, it gets more and more in our faces 20 that this is not just something that's a future problem, 21 it's something that's happening right now. 22 see something happen, I want to see those of us who have 23 power to use our power to make a change, and that's why 24 I'm here tonight. 25 I have been And I want to It really -- I find it so hard that three Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 57 1 people, that the three people who are the Commissioners 2 have the power to say what happens here in Michigan and 3 how we will address this really serious issue of our 4 future. 5 Please, please help us. 6 We can't stop their plans to do business as usual, which 7 is DTE does to everyone. 8 that we have 10, 12 years left before society as we know, 9 before civilization as we know it is disrupted by the You have the power to make a difference. We can't stop DTE without you. The scientists are telling us 10 changes that are happening because of our investment in 11 fossil fuels. 12 have this responsibility. 13 DTE accountable, you can make them go back, they can do 14 so much better. 15 I just want you to feel that, that you You can help us. You can hold Everybody has spoken very eloquently of 16 the problems that we experience with DTE in our city. 17 You know, the service is bad, the infrastructure is poor; 18 when it rains, and it's going to rain more, the wires are 19 down, people are killed at twice the rate in Detroit as 20 any other community. 21 real, and it's going to get worse with climate change. 22 So we need to change, we need to hold DTE accountable to 23 the very highest possible standard; we need to send them 24 back to the drawing board and say, do the best you can 25 do. You know, this -- these things are And I look to you, and I remind you that you have Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 58 1 the power. Please help us. 2 3 JUDGE MACK: Bilal Hammoud. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Savoie. Mr. Hammoud. 4 UNIDENTIFIED: 5 JUDGE MACK: 6 MS. STEWART: 7 JUDGE MACK: 8 MS. STEWART: He had to leave. O.K. Kiara Stewart. Kiava. Sorry. Hello. My name is Kiava 9 Stewart, and I want to say thank you for giving us this 10 opportunity to come in front of you and address the IRP 11 and what our concerns are. 12 I'm from Detroit, I've lived here all my 13 life. I would like to say that I represent anywhere 14 between 70 to 80 percent of Detroit in the black 15 community, in the hood. 16 more than three or four times last year for more than 17 three days at one point, I did a blackout challenge where 18 we provided food for people in the community that 19 couldn't get food from their refrigerators because their 20 power wasn't working, they couldn't turn on their stoves. 21 Me by myself and other women in my community came 22 together before our lights were cut off. 23 off for a total of seven days. 24 stations and the gas stations gave us noodles because the 25 grocery stores' freezers were off. When the lights were cut off O.K. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. The lights were I went to the gas I met a woman with 11 248.360.8865 59 1 children, their mother had passed, she had no food 2 because her refrigerator did not work. 3 inefficiencies in DTE are consistent, and they have been 4 since I was a child, and in my community. 5 The And this IRP, though I haven't read the 6 full thing, I've listened to both sides, nothing says 7 that it's going to be affordable for us. 8 talking about the fact that when the downed power lines, 9 when it happens, when these people die, there's no Nothing is 10 funding, there's no help, there's no resources, and this 11 is hurting us, it's not helping us. 12 There are programs in DTE some people 13 talked about, the low-income self-sufficiency program, 14 the Shutoff Protection Plan, those of which that I 15 personally have applied for more than a dozen times and 16 I've been denied because the front of my I.D. didn't 17 match my lease. 18 infrastructure there, let's be clear, because I just want 19 to say that we place ourselves in the infrastructure and 20 we should depend on them. 21 place themselves in our community and they should depend 22 on us, and they do. 23 of these problems are being addressed in this IRP. 24 watched homes benefit from solar panels, from energy 25 efficiency that I can't afford. While I was in the office and the No. These infrastructures Their revenues are tripling and none I I don't know how to put Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 60 1 a solar panel on my roof, but I know that there are 2 organizations that willing to teach me, and they're 3 underfunded. They don't have the support. 4 I know that my voice and maybe others 5 like me that are low income, that don't have a lot of 6 money, that don't have a fancy suit or fancy words may 7 not be as valuable because I didn't write it down for you 8 guys to keep, but I hope that when you see me, you 9 recognize millions of women and children that can not 10 afford these plans that don't include us. 11 12 13 JUDGE MACK: Jason Hayes. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Stewart. Jason Hayes. MR. HAYES: Good afternoon. Thank you 14 for holding this public meeting. 15 I was going to present, I thought it was interesting to 16 talk about the difference between dispatchability and 17 non-dispatchability, but I'm listening to people like the 18 lady who just spoke and I'm thinking, good Lord, this is 19 America in 2019 and we're allowing people to go for seven 20 days without electricity. 21 I had information that That's truly amazing. When I stop and think about what is in 22 DTE's plan, I'm thinking, O.K., we're going to close down 23 over 6,000 megawatts of dispatchable electricity, and in 24 its place we're going to put up 1,150 megawatts of 25 natural gas, and then we're going to put in somewhere Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 61 1 around 2,500 megawatts of solar, which is not 2 dispatchable, unreliable. 3 that there's ways to make it work during this, there's 4 ways to add batteries to the system, there's ways to do 5 other things, but each one of those adds a cost, an 6 imposed cost not only in terms of transmission, but also 7 in terms of other backup power. 8 9 Now, I've heard people say And something that a lot of people don't recognize when it comes to the issue of building 10 renewable energy is that, I believe it was Reverend 11 Tupper already said that the wind doesn't blow 24/7, the 12 sun doesn't shine 24/7, so when you build renewable 13 energy, whether people realize it or not, you have to 14 build natural gas as a backup, you can't do it unless you 15 have that. 16 So when I stop and I think that people 17 are saying we should shut down the natural gas at the 18 same time as we're shutting down coal, and you folks will 19 know that nuclear energy in Consumers' IRP is also going 20 to be closed, we're in the midst of shutting down all of 21 our reliable, already paid for, currently operating base 22 load electricity. 23 lady who just said she went for seven days without 24 electricity. 25 criminal. And then I hear somebody like this That's unthinkable. That should be I'm just, truly, I'm amazed at that. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. And I 248.360.8865 62 1 mean I come from obviously a very different situation, 2 and I'm kind of embarrassed when I hear that sort of 3 thing. That, wow, really wow. 4 And at the same time as we're talking 5 about closing down our reliable base load operations and 6 replacing it with unreliable renewables, we have no 7 backup. 8 submit written comments on this, but really, I'll stop 9 and let other people speak, but that's just wrong. This is -- and I'll stop, because I plan to 10 11 12 JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Mr. Hayes. MR. KESNER: Hi, my name is Charles Charles Kesner. 13 Kesner, I'm from Royal Oak, and a DTE customer. 14 people have expressed on the -- I'm on the side that we 15 shouldn't accept the current plan as submitted by DTE. 16 And most There's only a couple things I'd like to 17 add, and that is that according to Cranes Detroit, I 18 don't know if you're familiar with the article of 19 March 17, 2017, Detroit was -- DTE was ranked fourth 20 nationally for power outages. 21 that personally from my own experience. 22 can't get through a couple times a year without losing 23 our power, sometimes we've had to go to motels, and 24 that's not uncommon for my friends in Clawson or 25 Farmington Hills, also. O.K. And I can speak to Seems like we I have expressed my concerns to Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 63 1 DTE, and nobody responds. 2 But I think what we're asking -- and I'm 3 also concerned that they're a monopoly, you know, we've 4 virtually sanctioned them to be a monopoly on the energy 5 business in that we don't have third-party involvement 6 here. 7 good corporate citizen and, you know, and to allow some 8 of this to happen. 9 you know, with our cash-strapped cities and state And I think what we're asking is for DTE to be a And we don't have to look too far, 10 government -- and of course gas-powered power generation 11 is not clean and causes health problems, and that puts a 12 burden on our society. 13 know, municipalities are strapped for cash and school 14 districts, and we don't have to look too far. 15 that in Maize, Kansas, for an example, schools is saving 16 $30,000 a year annually using solar energy; Stockton, 17 California, schools plan on saving 30 million on its 18 energy bills in the next 25 years by using clean energy; 19 the city of Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania, saved more than 20 3.1 million in energy projects using building upgrades 21 and solar; and Glenwood Springs, Colorado, is the seventh 22 U.S. city to use 100-percent renewable and solar. 23 just like to say there are alternatives out there, there 24 are other communities doing it, and there's a great way 25 for us to allow our communities to use their resources on But I'd like to say that, you Metro Court Reporters, Inc. You know 248.360.8865 So I'd 64 1 infrastructure and things like that, and this clean 2 energy is a way to do it. Thank you very much. 3 JUDGE MACK: 4 We are going to take a break now, it's 5 6 5:30. Thank you, Mr. Kesner. We will resume at 5:45. (At 5:30 p.m., there was a 15-minute recess.) 7 JUDGE MACK: 8 the public comment portion of the meeting. 9 number of people who would like to speak, we are going to 10 reduce the time to three minutes, but we will stay for as 11 long as we can to make sure everybody has the opportunity 12 to speak. 13 time constraints that we're operating under. 14 O.K. We are going to resume Due to the So I would appreciate if you recognize the And with that, a name I'm having a hard 15 time, somebody with the National Wildlife Federation, 16 Antonio. 17 And one second. Again, if anybody wants 18 to submit written comments, they can do it here or they 19 can to it on the E-docket. 20 have had to leave and have submitted their comments. 21 if you have comments and you have to leave or you just 22 want to submit the comments, we can handle that, too. We've had some people who 23 Go ahead, please. 24 MR. COSME: 25 So I think it's painfully obviously that DTE funds a lot of pastors and nonprofits Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 65 1 in the city. 2 JUDGE MACK: 3 your last name, I had a -- 4 MR. COSME: 5 JUDGE MACK: 6 And I'm sorry, could you say Yeah. Antonio Cosme. Cosme. O.K. Thank you, Mr. Cosme. 7 MR. COSME: So it's pretty obvious that 8 DTE funds a lot of stuff in the city, so I think you're 9 going to get a lot of folks speaking for our monopoly 10 energy provider. 11 of the city and of Wayne County aren't going to speak up 12 for DTE. 13 But generally speaking, most citizens I didn't see a scenario in any of the 14 five scenarios of a massive social uprising of citizens 15 who are sick of the same old oil economy, and I got to 16 believe that that's coming soon. 17 there's huge populations of climate refugees on the 18 border of their continent, and that presence has raised 19 all sorts of xenophobic, reactionary, right-wing fears 20 that raise of specter of World War II. 21 of like political gridlock that we see happening in 22 Europe, potentially the breakup of the EU, a lot of that 23 comes from climate refugees and folks who came out of 24 Libya and Syria, and obviously a lot of the tensions in 25 those regions are caused by water shortages and climate As we see in Europe, Metro Court Reporters, Inc. I mean it's kind 248.360.8865 66 1 issues. 2 Where does all this like greedy, 3 squeezing the last tiny bit out of the oil economy take 4 us? 5 become suspended assets, and right now DTE is just trying 6 to line their pockets as much as possible until that day 7 comes. 8 abandon their infrastructure and there's massive capital 9 [inaudible]. At some point this natural gas and this oil has to We've seen what it looks like when companies That's been the story of Detroit for the 10 last 60 years. 11 into account this rapid change that society needs to 12 make. 13 responsible for far too much of the world's carbon 14 emissions. 15 politically and morally. 16 seem like a bankrupt nation. 17 And none of those scenarios are taking The energy policy of the United States has been The United States has become a global pariah With our bankrupt president, we We're the leading oil producer in the 18 world, we've radically changed the fracking economy, and 19 that technology, unproven, untested in a lot of places, 20 threatens fresh water all over the world. 21 when millions and billions of people all over the place 22 can not drink the water from the places that they live 23 in? 24 destabilization is that going to cause? 25 of Trump's presidency is he leaves the emperor without Where are they going to go? What happens What kind of Metro Court Reporters, Inc. The one benefit 248.360.8865 67 1 clothes, naked, flaccid, and frail, the perfect 2 spokesperson for a greedy, lying, cheating, old oil 3 economy. 4 The modeling scenario has not taken into 5 account the rising of us when comes to changing this 6 economy. 7 ambitious enough, 11 megawatts is terribly insufficient. 8 And why would they have to innovate? 9 monopoly be driven to innovate? A 20-percent reduction over 10 years is not Why would a I studied economics in 10 college, and that's just Economics 101. 11 inefficiencies when one monopoly producer can set the 12 price and it doesn't need to compete with other 13 competitors. 14 There's a lot of I don't know why we've accepted this fate. You know, I'm a forager, I'm a gardener, 15 I hunt, I fish, I love going outdoors. My job with the 16 National Wildlife Federation is to take kids outdoors and 17 introduce them to the wildlife, and with things like PFOS 18 contamination, like what -- how long do we have, you 19 know, to protect our waters? 20 gas goes up and the price of natural gas gets to a 21 certain rate, they're going to frack up Michigan like 22 crazy, and that's what we're waiting for. I mean when the price of 23 The last point I want to make is there's 24 a lot of folks in my generation, and you're not going to 25 hear too many young people speaking up for DTE, you're Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 68 1 going to see a lot of old pastors and nonprofit 2 executives who have been like on the DTE tete for years, 3 but these dinosaurs are dying, and those of us who want 4 to have kids, who want to have families, who want to 5 thrive in this world are looking at the state of our 6 political discourse and the state of capitalism in this 7 phase, and a lot of us are not wanting to have kids. 8 All that is to say is the oil era is 9 coming to an end, and at some point people are going to 10 suspend those assets and leave the oil in the ground, and 11 we need to take a leadership position as a country, and 12 you guys need to force DTE to innovate. 13 14 JUDGE MACK: Thank you. Jim Sherman. 15 MR. SHERMAN: I want to thank the 16 Commission for the opportunity to speak. 17 My name is Jim Sherman. 18 19 Jim Sherman. UNIDENTIFIED: Good afternoon. (Inaudible comments.) Tilt the microphone. 20 JUDGE MACK: How's that? 21 UNIDENTIFIED: 22 MR. SHERMAN: (Inaudible comments.) Good afternoon. My name is 23 Jim Sherman, I'm the co-chair of the Citizens Resistance 24 at Fermi Two. 25 this forum, especially here in Detroit. I want to thank the Commission for holding Metro Court Reporters, Inc. And an aside, I 248.360.8865 69 1 want to thank you for your recent work in improving the 2 accountability for DTE's electrocution deaths here in the 3 city. 4 I'm here to express my sincere and well- 5 founded conclusion that DTE's IRP is not safe, not 6 reasonable, and not prudent. 7 a draconian energy future that abdicates their 8 responsibility to the public in favor of a myopic, self- 9 serving agenda. It is actually a roadmap to It ignores the grim realities of climate 10 change and obfuscates the real impact of their plans. 11 massive investment in gas generation is a direct conflict 12 of interest considering the Company's large investments 13 in fracking and pipelines, and as 40-percent owner of the 14 Nexus Pipeline, this constitutes an attack on the public 15 interest. 16 A Electricity from clean renewable sources 17 is equivalent supply of the end user, but creates three 18 times more jobs, can be deployed to scale, and to the 19 point of demand more quickly and for less money. 20 operates pollution-free and adds reliability and 21 resiliency to the grid, and Michigan is one of the 22 leaders in the world of on-grid storage with the 23 Ludington Power Pumping Station, the world's fourth 24 largest water battery. 25 considerable clout to strangle meaningful adoption of It The Company is using their Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 70 1 distributed clean energy and storage in favor of hanging 2 an albatross around the necks of rate-paying 3 Michiganders. 4 But it gets worse. The IRP makes no 5 significant mention of the biggest monstrosity in their 6 dirty, polluting fleet, Fermi 2. 7 continually unfolding disaster at the Fukushima Daiichi 8 Power Plant in Japan, we must realize what a clear and 9 present danger Fermi 2 constitutes to the Great Lakes. 10 Both reactors are of the fatally flawed Mark 1 design, 11 but Fermi 2 is the largest Mark 1 in the world with over 12 a gigawatt of output. 13 problem in sight, high-level waste is piling up on the 14 Lake Erie shore. 15 multiple recent emergency shutdowns and major cooling 16 problems. 17 the public, they're moving to reduce the tax liabilities 18 and then cut important inspections, and one of the only 19 things they're declaring is that they want to continue 20 operating this dangerous plant to the end of its 21 potential lifespan, 80 years, which is an absolute 22 unconscionable act to even consider when it's already 23 having major problems. 24 25 In the wake of the With no real solution to the waste Fermi 2 is an aging reactor with Instead of fulfilling their duty to protect Fermi 2 is a financial boondoggle, only operable due to the massive subsidization and the Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 71 1 liability protections of the Price-Anderson Act. 2 Company wantonly prioritizes profit over protecting 3 people. 4 The It is the job of Michigan Public Service 5 Commission to protect the people of Michigan from 6 monopolistic and dirty energy practices. 7 job; it's very important for most of the respondents here 8 and for our future and for our children going forward, 9 you must reject this absolutely disastrous plan because Please do your 10 it is not safe, it is not reasonable, and it is not 11 prudent. 12 opportunity to share my views with you. 13 14 And I want to thank you very much for this JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Mr. Sherman. Michelle Martinez. 15 MS. MARTINEZ: Good evening, and thank 16 you for this opportunity to speak tonight. 17 of good points were made tonight, and what I want to add 18 in addition to some of the things that my fellow Detroit 19 residents have spoken towards is safety. 20 points that Michigan Public Service Commission is charged 21 with. 22 I think a lot It's one of the And in being a Detroiter, I share the 23 experience of participating in the energy system of DTE 24 and witnessing some of the hardships that people 25 experience, and I look around when there's a big storm Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 72 1 and downed power lines are happening, and I understand 2 that disinvestment in Detroit's infrastructure is 3 happening simultaneously to the expansion of 4 infrastructure in wealthier suburbs on the backs of poor 5 people. 6 happening in DTE territory every year, even to the number 7 of 20,000 in January when we know that the Polar Vortex 8 is striking, or in the summer months when we know that it 9 can reach up to 90 or a hundred degrees in people's homes When I know that over 200,000 shutoffs are 10 because they can't afford air conditioning in their 11 hundred year old homes, I ask myself, is that safe? 12 the Michigan Public Service Commission consider 13 affordability a safety issue? 14 work with talked about feeling unsafe when a neighbor was 15 trying to steal energy from their home because they had 16 children, creating a conflict between the two homeowners, 17 and I mentioned that it's, energy theft is a felony. 18 where's the right and wrong in that, and who is safe in 19 this situation? Does One of the youth that we But 20 I'm an environmental justice advocate and 21 I travel all over the United States, and I hear testimony 22 from people whose backyards are being fracked, whose 23 wells are never drinkable, who try to stop pipelines from 24 tearing through their lawns, from crossing the Great 25 Lakes and landing in Omgenon [sp], whose birth outcomes Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 73 1 are being changed from the processing of natural gas in 2 their communities, and I ask, is this system safe? 3 think about the rising tides of the Great Lakes and Lake 4 Huron reaching historic highs, and think about the coal 5 ash ponds and the nuclear waste that's being stored on 6 our Great Lakes, and I fear for my children, and I think 7 is this safe? 8 I Now, I know that as we continue to look 9 at DTE Energy's plan and they want to double down on 10 fracking and they want to double down on natural gas 11 facilities and they want to continue to run Fermi 2 and 12 maybe build Fermi 3 while simultaneously in other 13 structures continuing to raise rates higher and higher 14 and higher while trying to maintain industrial rates very 15 low, while paying off politicians and not paying federal, 16 local, or county taxes my children don't have water in 17 their school; is that safe? 18 is that safe? 19 safe? 20 It's 125 degrees in India; We're seeing ecological collapse; is that You heard from business people here who 21 are ready to build the next economy; you heard from 22 homeowners who are ready to put solar panels on their 23 homes but can't participate in the Voluntary Green 24 Program that just adds another $10, $20, or $30 to your 25 bill if you can afford it, and I wonder how can we Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 74 1 intervene in this discussion? 2 wonder, are you brave enough to go into this next phase 3 of existence with us to create a safe place to live in 4 Michigan with 20 percent of the world's fresh water, are 5 you brave enough to take that risk with us that we have 6 every day living in Detroit on the Great Lakes? 7 And I look to you, and I We take on the political risk when DTE 8 puts up a faulty plan like this, and we're asking for you 9 to share in the risk in taking on a safer, cleaner, 10 affordable, 100-percent clean renewable energy so that we 11 can survive this next phase of our existence. 12 13 14 15 16 JUDGE MACK: Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Martinez. Gloria Lowe. MS. LOWE: Thank you. Thank you for coming to Detroit. I'm almost speechless. As an elder in 17 the community representing the east side of Detroit, 18 we're just disappointed. 19 Not just with DTE. 20 experienced these rate hikes for 20 and 30 years. 21 not experienced good service, but we've paid for it. 22 we're kind of disgusted, because we, too, look to you. 23 You were the guys that were supposed to make sure that 24 they did what they were supposed to do for the price they 25 were asking for. We're totally disappointed. We've been here long enough, we have It's not happened. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. We've So You know, we can 248.360.8865 75 1 pass blame all day long, but as the young lady said, we 2 don't have much time. 3 that this is a political game that's being played on the 4 lives of a lot of people, particularly my community in 5 Detroit. 6 It's obvious to the people here We know DTE is switching to natural gas 7 because they're just so greedy that they can refuse to 8 pay the high cost for coal. 9 partnered with Enbridge and other such folks, Marathon, 10 and all these folks who want to do fracking and destroy 11 the Great Lakes. 12 I have community up north that won't be able to fish, 13 that's their livelihood, on the back of somebody else's 14 greed. 15 We know that they have I love to fish; I don't know about you. This is a moral issue for me at my age. 16 I'm concerned about the young people and their children. 17 Maybe I'm concerned about yours. 18 you concerned about their future? 19 The question is, are This IRP is ridiculous. And we can talk 20 all day long, we can talk to the points. The only point 21 I have is if Consumers Energy can come up with something 22 better, why not DTE? 23 absolutely we do not support this IRP. 24 brought to the table, they need to stand up and take 25 responsibility for who they are, and I'm going to ask That's very obvious. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. So I'm saying They need to be 248.360.8865 76 1 that you take responsibility for what you're here to do. 2 I don't feel safe. I don't feel secure. 3 I know my community is not safe, we're not secure. 4 infrastructure is horrible. 5 high wind come through, get ready because the lines are 6 coming down, and people are dying. 7 accepts that? 8 accept that in your state? 9 that. Our You can almost count on a Who does that? Who You have these reports; why would you even We're so much better than This is not a political game, our lives are at 10 stake here, all of them. 11 peak, it's not going to say, oh, are you black, are you 12 Hispanic, are you Muslim, or are you rich, white and 13 male? 14 you? It's not going to care. 15 16 When climate change hits this JUDGE MACK: The question is, will Thank you, Ms. Lowe. Lauren Sargent. 17 MS. SARGENT: My name is Lauren Sargent, 18 I'm from Ann Arbor, and I'd like to thank you, 19 Commissioners, for being here today; but more than that, 20 I'd like to thank my fellow citizens who came out today 21 to speak to you and to implore you to do your jobs. 22 do have the power to make a change to send this IRP back 23 to the drawing board, and I implore you to do that. 24 25 You I also learned that DTE provides reliable energy. That's a surprise to me. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. In my neighborhood in 248.360.8865 77 1 Ann Arbor, ten of my neighbors have generators, that's 2 how often our power goes out. 3 neighbors has a daughter who has a genetic disorder and 4 has no motor tone from her chest down and she needs 5 special equipment to breathe at night, so every time that 6 power went out, it was a life and death emergency for 7 that family, and DTE contractors told her that they 8 should just go to the hospital with their daughter. 9 I'm glad to hear that DTE has reliable energy, this is 10 Also, one of my former So news to me, it's not my lived experience. 11 So what I urge you to do quite simply is 12 to send DTE back to the drawing board to develop an 13 Integrated Resource Plan that reflects reality and not 14 the financial aspirations of shareholders. 15 Climate change is not imminent, it is 16 here. 17 precipitation, just look out the window. 18 nearly every day for the past several months we have been 19 experiencing the effects of climate change. 20 It's not tomorrow, it's not next year. 21 transitioning to climate crisis, yet the energy plans of 22 our monopoly utility do not reflect this urgency to act. 23 This is not 1957, the year of my birth, this is 2019; 24 they can do so much better. 25 More frequent and intense storms, more Today and It is now. We are rapidly Coal, fracked gas, that's an absurdity. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 78 1 We have all the data we could ever need to make it 2 abundantly clear that we should transition very rapidly 3 off fossil fuels in favor of renewable energy, 4 conservation, efficiency, and advanced battery storage. 5 DTE's plan to invest in fracked gas plants and to 6 continue to burn coal are a slap in the face to our young 7 people, people like my 18 year old son who told me today, 8 I'm scared to have children. 9 our birth rate reflects that, it's dropping off a cliff. The planet is dying, and 10 How could I plan to have children to bring them into a 11 dying world? 12 that there's so much depression and anxiety among people 13 my age. That would be so sad. There's a reason This is my lived experience. 14 DTE is supposed to serve the public, not 15 just shareholder profit. 16 privilege short-term gain over a liveable future within 17 the not so distant future. 18 send DTE back to develop a plan consistent with the 19 public interests. 20 It's unconscionable for DTE to I urge the Commissioners to Renewable energy and conservation now. Stop punishing consumers who are trying 21 to do our part. Why is there a cap on net metering? 22 do ratepayers who want to convert their power to 23 renewable sources have to pay extra for that privilege? 24 The price of renewables is dropping rapidly, and interest 25 in conversion to renewables is growing. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. Why Peer utilities 248.360.8865 79 1 like Consumers are getting the message, the municipal 2 utilities and co-ops are getting on board. 3 get with the 21st Century. 4 stop all the investment in new infrastructure for fossil 5 fuels, do their part to halt the spiraling climate 6 crisis. 7 there's no time like the present to start. 8 JUDGE MACK: Thank you Ms. Sargent. MR. DREHER: Thank you. 9 DTE needs to Save the ratepayers money, Yes, this should have been done decades ago, but Nick Dreher. 10 Good evening. 11 My name is Nick Dreher, I'm with the Midwest Energy 12 Efficiency Alliance, a non-profit membership-based energy 13 efficiency advocacy organization serving as a program and 14 policy resource across our 13-state region, which 15 includes Michigan. 16 working within Michigan, and MEEA does not intervene or 17 lobby. 18 today. 19 We have about 75 members based in or And I want to thank the opportunity to speak I have set three main points. First, if 20 stacked up against all other supply-side energy 21 resources, energy waste reduction or energy efficiency is 22 the cheapest resource. 23 Lazard and Lawrence Berkeley National Lab sources. 24 average, energy efficiency is around 20 cents per 25 kilowatt hour in the midwest, and I believe it's slightly The following is from the 2018 Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 On 80 1 lower in Michigan actually. Compared to all other 2 resources, it is the cheapest. 3 knock in any way on renewable energy, it's just meant to 4 underscore the lower cost of energy efficiency, which 5 should be thought of as the first fuel, the first step in 6 assessing broader energy supply to meet demand. 7 size, reduce, and manage first to increase reliability, 8 resiliency, and affordability. And that's not meant as a Right 9 Second, if for some reason the modeling 10 is not selecting the cheapest resource, which is energy 11 waste reduction, we need to think about reexamining the 12 way we value energy efficiency in the context of 13 long-term energy planning. 14 benefits, EWR brings comfort, health benefits, safety, 15 resiliency, and numerous other nonenergy benefits to the 16 customers, the utility, and to the energy infrastructure 17 at large. 18 Beyond energy savings Third, MEEA is part of the Michigan 19 Energy Efficiency for All Partnership of national, 20 regional, statewide, and community-based organizations 21 here in Michigan united in striving to ensure that all 22 Michigan renters live in homes that are affordable and 23 healthy. 24 we might specifically address the persisting energy 25 affordability crises in Michigan through increased energy MEEA asks for guidance from this body as to how Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 81 1 waste reduction resources. 2 years, DTE has significantly increased its spending for 3 those EWR programming opportunities, however, we think 4 these programs specifically in the energy efficiency 5 resources benefiting these communities should be a 6 long-range energy planning priority, ensuring reliable, 7 safe, and affordable energy services. 8 9 Now, over the past couple of In the 2017-2018 statewide energy waste reduction potential study, a commercial and industrial 10 market assessment was conducted to evaluate the potential 11 for EWR. 12 multi-family sectors specifically to understand that 13 potential. 14 reach customer segments requiring creative program design 15 and long-term attention. 16 in under-resourced communities, underserved communities 17 can mean life or death. 18 I'd like guidance as to the complementary interaction 19 between EWR cases, integrated resource planning, and rate 20 cases. 21 achieve energy affordability for all Michiganders. 22 you again for the opportunity. 25 Like C&I, these are uniquely difficult to Unlike C&I, the energy burden In the absence of such a study, These proceedings should work in concert to 23 24 Why not investigate the affordable single- and JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Mr. Dreher. Thank Rita Mitchell. MS. MITCHELL: Hi. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. I'm Rita Mitchell, 248.360.8865 82 1 and I'm from Ann Arbor. And you'll hear some echos of 2 things you've heard from other people today. 3 And I want to thank you for starting out 4 your presentation with your discussion of the mission of 5 the PSC, because I think its really important, and I hope 6 you'll continue on it. 7 for-profit energies and entities. 8 affect the residents to pay their bills. 9 assure fairness for all of us who almost have no choice 10 You're regulating a monopoly of Their rates affect the Your job is to but to accept the service and pay the rates of DTE. 11 I just received my energy bill from DTE, 12 and it had data that compared our household to others. 13 want DTE to use that information. 14 to focus energy efficiency on households that really need 15 the help. 16 household versus one that's not. 17 that DTE would dedicate to efficiency is between 1 and 18 2 percent; incredibly small. 19 energy production needs would be altered, as you said, if 20 they were supported by more weatherization of buildings. 21 Why is such a limited amount presented as part of their 22 package? 23 I It should be required They know which is an energy efficient The proposed percentage DTE's future projected Regarding safety: What about the safety 24 of air? Until we have a fully renewable energy resource 25 system, DTE should be financially responsible for the Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 83 1 full range of healthcare for all asthma cases within 2 50 miles of any fossil fuel plant. 3 safety measures for communities surrounding the Fermi 2 4 plant, including potassium iodide and emergency routing 5 for in the event of a nuclear event. 6 importance is the need to close plants that use fossil 7 fuels and dangerous nuclear energy, that should be part 8 of the future plan and should be soon. 9 It should provide Of greatest For reliability and accessibility, DTE 10 should be welcoming alternative energy solutions that 11 stabilize the electricity available. 12 collective energy production into the 21st Century and 13 to leave the dinosaurs to the past. 14 We need to move our You Commissioners are responsible for 15 ensuring equity so that those who are financially 16 challenged also participate in the clean energy future 17 that will benefit all. 18 ones that ensure that there are no sacrifice zones, that 19 neighborhoods and the environment are not harmed by 20 energy production as is currently the case. 21 We're counting on you to be the Like an earlier speaker way in the 22 beginning of today, I'm concerned about this as a moral 23 issue. 24 a switch, the electricity that I use means that some of 25 my fellow Michiganders in southeast Michigan will breathe I'm actually very aware that every time I flip on Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 84 1 polluted air, and that the pipelines used to transport 2 natural gas may emit greenhouse gases anywhere along the 3 line from extraction to use. 4 decisions to move us to a renewable energy future that 5 removes caps and limits on wind and solar energy. 6 work to get a creative plan implemented so that we can 7 move to a clean energy future. 8 9 JUDGE MACK: Jim Murray. I want your actions and Please Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Mitchell. Jim Murray. 10 MR. MURRAY: Hi, 11 guys. 12 stick to the three minutes. 13 of the Arab Chaldean Council, and prior to that I was 14 president of AT&T Michigan. 15 charitable organization that provides services to many 16 diverse communities across the tri-state region. 17 Hello. I can only go so fast. My name is Jim Murray, and I will actually I'm the executive director The ACC is a nonprofit I for one am very, very happy that DTE 18 has a social mission that includes helping out 19 organizations like ours. 20 climate refugees that were mentioned earlier, the 21 economic refugees, the political refugees, our 22 organization helps them. 23 offices across the tri-county region. 24 25 Nonprofits help people. The We have over 40 satellite My last point I want to make -- I'll submit full testimony based on the pages that I had Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 85 1 before, but since we're running out of time -- is that 2 you may be able to compare Consumers' and DTE's plans, 3 but they don't start from the same point. 4 a net buyer, one of them is net supplier; they're not 5 necessarily apples and oranges, they don't compare 6 directly to each other for an IRP. 7 I said, I'll submit formal written testimony. 8 9 JUDGE MACK: Meredith Gilies. Thank you. Meredith Gilies. America, can you help me? 11 MS. YAHYA: 12 JUDGE MACK: Yahya. MS. YAHYA: Yes, sir. Can you spell that Y-a-h-y-a. First name like the country. 16 17 Yahya. for Ms. Penn? 14 15 And like Thank you, Mr. Murray. 10 13 One of them is THE REPORTER: O.K. You have to speak up. 18 MS. YAHYA: First name like the country, 19 America. So just please give me one moment. 20 Thank you for being here. 21 listening to our voice being here in Detroit, we 22 appreciate that so very much. 23 Hello. We do really appreciate you Again, my name is America Yahya. 24 born and raised in southwest Detroit. 25 very much. I was I love my city I am a fellow with Work For Me DTE, and Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 86 1 Soulardarity, and I'm an extremely concerned resident of 2 Detroit and of our planet. 3 have a few bullet points. 4 I'm just going to be quick, I Firstly, we need a sustainable system and 5 we have the means to do so. We must focus on that. What 6 DTE proposes does not have anyone in this equation but 7 them. 8 the line literally. 9 with all the data that was said today from every single 10 one of us, we have the means and the research to fix our 11 situation, so there is no reason not to. 12 possible. Our health, our environment, and our lives are on 13 This is no joke time. And simply It is indeed And there are plenty -- there are plenty 14 examples around the world and increasing amounts of 15 examples on our globe that have [inaudible] pollutants 16 and solutions to these situations. 17 countries and groups of people and communities that have 18 become successfully sustainable, and they're helping with 19 this strike on climate change, but we're not. 20 indeed we do have the funds, we do have the power, you do 21 have the power, and we do have the people; we're here 22 supporting you, we can make it happen, and it needs to 23 happen now. 24 time. 25 There have been We don't have the time. Yes, We do not have the I would like to quote the Swedish teen, Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 87 1 Greta Thunberg, all the way in Sweden who had to skip 2 school in order to lead climate strikes in her country. 3 She says: 4 and yet you are stealing their future in front of their 5 very eyes. 6 as a crisis. 7 impossible to find, then we should change the system 8 itself. You say you love your children above all else, We can not solve a crisis without treating it If solutions within the system are so 9 And a question for everyone here in the 10 audience: 11 don't have any time? 12 want you to listen and I want you to adhere, we are here 13 to support you, we are all in this together, no one is 14 going anywhere. 15 there. 16 Thank you. Now that you've heard, please, I Mars isn't, you know, we can't live We need to figure it out. 17 18 How much time will be too much time before we JUDGE MACK: Please, please adhere. Thank you, Ms. Yahya. Langmore. 19 MR. LANGMORE: I'm going to say for 20 starters that I have no trust in DTE's interest, 21 sincerity of interest in solar power. 22 23 John JUDGE MACK: Is this off now? No, you've got to talk into it. 24 MR. LANGMORE: Yes. 25 because I'm a solar customer, SolarCurrents. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. O.K. And that's I installed 248.360.8865 88 1 the panels, I had to wait three months for them to come 2 and inspect them correctly; they said that they were not 3 installed correctly, but they were. 4 in a raffle in order to get onto the SolarCurrents 5 program. 6 I had to wait a year When I started the program, I accumulated 7 some solar credits, and then in February of 2017 all my 8 solar credits were taken away, they went from $1,400 to 9 zero. Later that year it was, you know -- and I got no 10 bills until later in the year the credits were set to 11 zero again. 12 billing me as a member of the SolarCurrents program, and 13 I still would have paid for energy that I generated that 14 they didn't give me credit for, and they can't solve the 15 problem. 16 I still have them to solve the problem of But the reason -- I know that DTE, I know 17 that utilities have to be a monopoly, that's the 18 traditional way because you want centralized power, you 19 want reliability, all those sorts of things. 20 does that end up doing? 21 system is fair to the customer, and that means that you 22 have affordable energy and you have reliable energy. 23 you want to be fair to DTE. 24 that you give DTE about 8 percent of their gross profit, 25 that seems reasonable to me. And what You want to make sure that the And That the precedent has been That seems very reasonable. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 89 1 Since 2013, DTE's total revenue has increased twofold. 2 Since 2013, DTE's profit has therefore increased 20 3 fold -- sorry, sorry -- twofold. 4 still because it's 8 percent of the revenue. 5 over the years, the price of coal goes up and down, the 6 price of gas goes up and down, but they always get on 7 average about 8-percent return on their investment. 8 That's O.K. Stock value since 2013 has increased by a 9 2.4 factor. So the stockholders of DTE have no incentive Twofold. But it's If you look 10 to reduce costs. 11 whether you do something like you make coal more -- coal 12 cheaper, gas cheaper, or you put solar into effect or 13 wind power, that 8-percent margin is there, so you lose 14 some of your profit. 15 efficient, you lose some of your profit. 16 fair. 17 Any time you reduce the cost of energy, Every time you make things more That's not And people who think that solar and wind 18 power is unreliable really aren't knowing the truth 19 because they are reliable; they are always available and 20 the price remains constant. 21 backup, I know that, everyone knows that. 22 to get into sustainable energy as quickly as you can. 23 will reduce the total amount of revenue from generating 24 the electricity, maybe that will be compensated by people 25 having more EVs, I don't know, but it will probably Yes, you have to have Metro Court Reporters, Inc. But you want 248.360.8865 It 90 1 reduce the number of dollars spent on energy, and that 2 will reduce the return for the stockholders of DTE, and 3 the only people who can change that system to make it 4 more fair is to -- are you guys, because somehow you're 5 going to want to do something to incentivize them to have 6 more nonfossil energy in use so that the ratepayers can 7 benefit and the environment can benefit. 8 kind of a DTE money to burn. 9 they continue to invest in fossil fuels, there's no doubt 10 about that, but consumers will burn their pocketbooks by 11 paying for that for new power stations that shouldn't be 12 built, and they will burn from emissions of CO2 and also 13 the air pollution from particulates. 14 I call that DTE will make more money if So it's your responsibility to I think do 15 something better than what DTE has proposed. 16 Consumers has a much more aggressive view on what to do, 17 and that's what you should do. 18 19 20 JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Mr. Langmore. MR. MILLER: Hello. Fred Miller. My name is Fred 21 Miller, I'm a volunteer with the Sierra Club. 22 all for coming and holding this hearing. 23 I think Thank you I'd like to say just a couple of things 24 about the commitment of DTE to the long-term use of 25 natural gas as represented by the plant that they're Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 91 1 already allowed to build and have started and the second 2 one that they have announced in the IRP they intend to 3 build, new gas plants. 4 evolution of our societies around the world where our 5 scientists have told us in no uncertain terms that we 6 have a very short period of time to make a transition 7 with energy, and we're beginning to see governments take 8 that seriously. 9 New York is now targeted as a zero-emissions economy by 10 2050, which is in line with what scientists say is not a 11 radical proposal but the necessary actions to forestall 12 the most devastating effects of climate change. 13 York plan also calls for a zero-emission electric sector 14 by 2040. 15 behind, because other sectors of our economy that rely 16 now on direct use of fossil fuels are going to have to 17 switch to natural gas -- I mean not to -- to electricity, 18 and if natural gas, if fossil fuels are being used for 19 electricity, that switch will be much less effective and 20 take much longer. Now, we are at a stage in the I mean you have mentioned some states, The New Electricity has to lead the way, not fall in 21 So I know that you're not in a position 22 to launch Michigan on a similar path, but it's going to 23 happen here and it's going to happen nationally; it's a 24 question of when it's going to happen. 25 of us who are pressing it wish it happened yesterday, but Metro Court Reporters, Inc. You know, those 248.360.8865 92 1 it's going to happen, and if it's put off, it's going to 2 happen in a panic. 3 The question is, what are we doing with 4 natural, new natural gas plants with a 40-, 50-, 60-year 5 lifespan given that time, kind of timeframe to make a 6 transition in electrical production? 7 is not news to DTE, not news to Exxon Mobil, it's not 8 news to any of these people. 9 foaling, and they know that this is coming. DTE is not -- this They understand the So the 10 question is, why are they insisting on long-term natural 11 gas commitments? 12 interest aside from their role as an electrical utility. Obviously they have an economic 13 Are they looking for, as Consumers said 14 when they looked into this kind of thing, this would -- 15 too risky, likely to end up as stranded assets. 16 think DTE probably plans that. 17 guess is that their plan, along with the rest of the 18 natural gas industry, is to put this in as a fait 19 accompli now, and then in coming years come back to their 20 ratepayers and say, oops, now we need carbon 21 sequestration, now we need carbon capture, whatever it 22 costs and whatever damage that causes to the environment, 23 to the water, and to the risk of methane leaks. 24 not saying that, and their plan, their IRP doesn't 25 explain what they're going to do to deal with this, but I don't Do they have a plan? Metro Court Reporters, Inc. My They're 248.360.8865 93 1 that's the question of prudence for any of this thing 2 that the Michigan Public Service Commission needs to 3 address. 4 gas plant be reasonable and prudent given what is 5 happening and what has to happen, what is going to happen 6 in terms of a transition in energy. How can new natural gas, another new natural 7 8 9 JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Mr. Miller. MS. CUTHEY: I want to thank you for Carmel Cuthey. 10 hearing us out here in Detroit. 11 hearing us out, and I'll be quick. 12 I want to thank you for I want to give a pretext on how I found 13 out about the MPSC. About three years ago I was pregnant 14 and I inherited a home, and when I went into the home, I 15 called DTE, I'm ready to get it all turned on. 16 me who was there before was stealing electricity; as a 17 matter of fact, you're the thief, and we want $7,000 or 18 you're not going to be able to get electricity. 19 displaced for almost two years, through my whole 20 pregnancy, which really put me in a wrongful spot with my 21 children; and I kid you not, I was like laying on 22 somebody's couch in my family. 23 something, so I got to Googling, and I found out about 24 the MPSC, and it was like the knight in shining armor. 25 Like after that call, not even 30 days later they called They told I was And I said has to be Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 94 1 me, told me that I need zero down, and they came and cut 2 my lights and gas back on. 3 want to say you guys are definitely a knight in shining 4 armor, we need you, and we need you. 5 So that's the pretext. I The second part to it is I'm part of the 6 bigger dynamic, but I'm also a part of the smaller 7 dynamic. 8 it's inherited, it's degenerative, and the main symptom 9 of it is radio sensitivity. I have two children with a very rare disease, So coming from where I'm 10 from and we have a bad infrastructure, not only do I have 11 to slave to pay that bill, but I also dread every time 12 that transformer busts open in my backyard because now my 13 children are being exposed more to this radio sensitivity 14 that is breaking them down anyway. 15 So the things that I really want to come 16 and ask you for is a comp -- make DTE compete for us. 17 should be able to be satisfied if we do have to pay, we 18 should be able to be satisfied. 19 health side of it. 20 in this city, so, you know, just hear us out. 21 I'm worried about the We don't want to be exploited anymore It seems like pretty much everything that 22 I want to say has already been said, so I'm just 23 appreciative to have you here. 24 25 We JUDGE MACK: Kevin Fisher. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Cuthey. Kevin Fisher, Mr. Fisher. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 95 1 Adrian Laurenzi. 2 UNIDENTIFIED: 3 JUDGE MACK: 4 MR. LAURENZI: Laurenzi. Laurenzi. I'm Adrian Laurenzi, I'm a 5 resident in Detroit and a DTE customer, and I appreciate 6 the opportunity to speak today. 7 have been said, and I'm just going to add my piece to it. 8 So kind of add on I guess a little bit of 9 a unique perspective. A lot of powerful things So I'm a grid-tie net metering 10 customer, so I set up a solar system with the help of a 11 friend who happened to know how to go through that 12 process with DTE, which is not a friendly process, but, 13 you know, I went through that trouble, and also spent the 14 money and made the investment in it to have solar for my 15 house. 16 like absolutely no incentive from DTE, or as far as I'm 17 aware, the state, you know, no incentive to do that, but 18 I care about it because I think it's something that can 19 benefit the future health of our community, and also 20 security for our energy future. 21 because to learn about solar, like what's this process 22 like and how can we -- how can I learn more about it. 23 And I did that despite the fact that there was I also wanted to do it My neighbors come by, they ask me 24 about -- they ask about the solar, they ask, you know, 25 what -- is that, you know, helping your electricity bill, Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 96 1 they want know about it. 2 it, you know, about it is it's not accessible to the 3 majority of my neighbors, they can't afford it, you know, 4 there's no incentive for this, so that's a little bit 5 disheartening. 6 You know, the sad thing that To address the IRP, you know, the big 7 complaint I have is it doesn't provide equitable access 8 to renewable energy. 9 an amazing future with renewables, but, you know, we need This is the future I see, there's 10 to provide equitable access so we can take advantage of 11 this. 12 IRP is not doing that. 13 We need to incentivize this, but right now this Second concern, they're building natural 14 gas infrastructure; this is, you know, not the way out of 15 a climate crises we're in, and ultimately these, you 16 know, extreme weather events, they're going to come back 17 and affect us here in Detroit. 18 So I urge to you reject this IRP, and I 19 also want to, you know, thank you for hearing us and 20 also, you know, we're with you, we definitely, we want to 21 work with you to help, you know, create a future, a plan 22 that actually solves these problems, so appreciate it. 23 JUDGE MACK: 24 Chairman Talberg, I believe you wanted to 25 Thank you, Mr. Laurenzi. recognize someone. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 97 1 MS. TALBERG: I just wanted to 2 acknowledge Bridget Smith from Senator Curtis Hertel's 3 office for participating. 4 comments, but I just wanted to acknowledge her presence. 5 I don't think she has any UNIDENTIFIED: It's State Rep Hertel 7 THE REPORTER: I can't hear. 8 UNIDENTIFIED: State Rep Hertel. 9 MS. TALBERG: 6 10 (inaudible). Representative Hertel. 11 12 Sorry. Sorry. All in the family. JUDGE MACK: Thank you. Thank you. Jesse DeerInWater. 13 MR. DEERINWATER: Hey, all. How's it 14 going? Let me get this where it's in a decent spot here. 15 Hello. I'm Jesse DeerInWater, I'm a concerned citizen, 16 also a member of C.R.A.F.T., Citizens Resistance at Fermi 17 Two; you heard a couple other people speak on this. 18 kind of nervous here. 19 I'm My main concern that -- the main concern 20 that I have is, with DTE's IRP is the Fermi 2 nuclear 21 reactor and their plan to run it for 80 years total. 22 After 37 years and it's already like literally falling 23 apart and they're -- they have to prop it up, and over 24 time, you know, that's going to lose money. 25 it's projected to lose money until 2022, and it started Metro Court Reporters, Inc. I believe 248.360.8865 98 1 in 2017, and I fear that the weight of that is going to 2 fall on the customers through a bailout and the 3 ratepayers will have to pay for it. 4 going to move on because I had a bunch of stuff written 5 down, I was just going to freestyle that. 6 All right. But anyway, I'm So we have here they want to 7 have fewer inspections for a lot of things, and that's 8 dangerous. 9 last refueling cycle, there was 3,000 work orders and not They also want fewer refuelings, and in the 10 even half of them were completed. 11 time, less fueling -- less fueling outages, more work, 12 less work to be done, that's going to build up over time. 13 All throughout this time nuclear waste will be amassing 14 on the Great Lakes' shoreline. 15 pay on our bills for waste management, and I mean what's 16 really going on with it if it's just sitting there? 17 know what I mean. 18 with it, but we don't want it there. 19 You do the math. Over Totally unnecessary. We You I mean I'm sure they're doing a lot And this, also, you know, the 50-mile 20 radius, that's a thing, too, since it's the same plant as 21 the Fukushima; there was a 50-mile danger zone around it 22 when it melted down, and that here includes Detroit and 23 Toledo. 24 plan, I don't believe that there is, and if there is, the 25 public sure doesn't know about it. I don't know if there is a strong evacuation Metro Court Reporters, Inc. And also the 248.360.8865 99 1 distribution of KI, you know, there's a lot going on with 2 this reactor and it's totally unsafe. 3 needs to be decommissioned, the waste removed from the 4 Great Lakes. 5 this facility was produced by renewable energies, 6 preferably rooftop solar with community ownership over 7 the grid, kind of like rural co-ops, especially if, you 8 know, like say cities or even if a county, you know, get 9 their stuff together, you know what I mean, to pull that 10 I feel that it And if the electricity that was produced by off, I think that's awesome. 11 Also, yeah, Consumers Energy is closing 12 their aged reactor and replacing the energy with that 13 from solar, they're projecting 5,000 megawatts by 2030, 14 while DTE is only looking at like 500, or I believe 15 that's what it is, but anyway, that's 10 times the 16 amount. 17 feel. I mean, you know, DTE can step their game up I 18 And then also the price of uranium is 19 rising, so, you know what I mean, that's just more money 20 that's going to have to go into the facility, more money 21 that's going to come out of our pockets through rates or 22 tax increase. 23 I mean, you know, there's just a lot. This year the price of solar is going 24 down. New solar creates new jobs way more than building 25 and maintaining gas plants which are dangerous, and Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 100 1 fracking waste is also dangerous. 2 reasonable that the dangers to the people and the 3 environment from the Enrico Fermi 2 nuclear power plant 4 is not considered as much as it should be, and I feel 5 like they need to go back to the drawing board and come 6 back with something a lot better, a lot safer, and more 7 reasonable sounding. 8 9 Thank you for your time. JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Mr. DeerInWater. MR. HELZOR: Good evening. Herb Helzor. 10 11 And I don't feel it Thank you all for having this public hearing. 12 I would like to, I mean while 13 acknowledging all the wonderful comments that have been 14 made and the passion that they've shown and their 15 commitment to, you know, to a sustainable future and 16 forward and worries about climate change and the imminent 17 threat to, you know, to our planet as a whole, I have 18 something maybe new that this plan as submitted is 19 completely lacking in. 20 that there is a scenario called status quo just struck me 21 as absurd because the only thing that's certain in life 22 is change and by 2030 we are not going to be in the 23 status quo. 24 there is something that I don't think they've, that 25 they've acknowledged, or they certainly haven't Well, first off, the mere fact But I mean -- but does the -- there is a -- Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 101 1 acknowledged enough, maybe it's buried in the 1,300 2 pages, but and that is any concern for cyber security. 3 That we know that the electrical grid, 4 that for years the professionals in cyber security have 5 known that the grid power system, our power transmission 6 system, our power distribution system, the transformers, 7 substations, all of it is vulnerable, and just last week 8 that got raised up to a very high awareness level when 9 our own U.S. cyber command revealed that they had -- that 10 they had planted malware in the Russian electrical grid 11 as a deterrent, meaning that they know that the Russians, 12 possibly the Chinese, other nations' state actors or 13 criminal groups have done it to our grid, and I see 14 nothing in here or no acknowledgment that DTE has 15 invested sufficiently in a, in cyber security in either 16 awareness, mitigation, or just having the resources on 17 hand to deal with a sort of outage that would result 18 from, you know, a cyber attack. 19 handle, you know, a normal storm without having outages, 20 where is the confidence in their ability to respond and 21 mitigate a, you know, a cyber attack. I mean they can't even 22 I think they need to come back and show 23 what their, you know what their investment plan is over 24 the next ten years in not just protecting their, not just 25 protecting, you know, their cyber resources, but also in Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 102 1 general grid resilience, in grid hardening, in just, you 2 know, just the ability to withstand an outage such as the 3 one back in 2003 that took out most of the midwest. 4 you know, I think the investment since then in protecting 5 the grid has been woefully insufficient, and I think the 6 IRP needs to come back with a greater sense of investment 7 in protecting the grid, hardening the grid, and cyber 8 security. 9 And, I also just as an aside think that any -- 10 that the idea that they're only planning to put in 11 11 million -- 11 megawatts of solar as a pilot is doubly 12 insulting in both the amount, which is pitifully small, 13 and the fact that they even still think of it as a pilot. 14 Solar energy has been shown to be very reliable, very 15 resilient, and very doable. 16 whole solar farm in a parking lot at Ford World 17 Headquarters, they could do better than 11 megawatts 18 statewide. Thank you. 19 20 I mean if they can put a JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Mr. Helzor. MS. CARTER: Good evening. Piper Carter. 21 My name is 22 Piper Carter. Thank you for coming here, I want you to 23 know you made right decision to come here to Detroit, 24 Michigan. 25 live in the City Council District 7, it's one of the most And I am a resident of Detroit Michigan, I Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 103 1 underserved districts in the city; it's actually the most 2 underserved district in the city, so that's the lense 3 from which I'm speaking. 4 And just simply put, DTE is a big bully. 5 They're acting as a huge bully. It's already been stated 6 about that they are a monopoly which has us in, you know, 7 basically trapped into the system to use it if we want to 8 have access to any kind of electricity. 9 table of what Detroit has organized, which is called the DTE is at the 10 Green Task Force. 11 assembled by the city council. 12 monopoly should have a voice at something that is for the 13 public. 14 community members can be involved in their own decision- 15 making about what happens in the city. 16 put that into the record in terms of your decision- 17 making, because it has been stated already very clearly 18 about climate change and the detriment of climate change, 19 and so if a huge stakeholder such as DTE is at the table 20 with the city to make decisions for people, that's 21 definitely terrible and not good and harmful. 22 The Green Task Force has been It is unreasonable that a The Green Task Force has been assembled so that So I wanted to So with that, I also want to echo that 23 DTE while at that table has been actively acting against 24 the interests of the people in terms of allowing -- 25 they've been literally blocking people's ability to be Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 104 1 able to participate in community solar. Community solar, 2 as you've heard and as you can look at different 3 examples, can provide not only autonomy from the system, 4 it can also provide green jobs, which are very necessary. 5 We've been told that there are a hundred thousand green 6 jobs here in the state of Michigan, however, we have not 7 been told as citizens that any of those jobs are 8 earmarked for Detroiters that we desperately need with a 9 citizenry that is very underemployed. Therefore, many of 10 the issues that you have been hearing are due to the fact 11 that our citizenry is underemployed. 12 afford to pay exorbitant amounts of increasing bills to a 13 utility that their lives are dependent upon if they don't 14 even have access to take care of their basic needs. 15 just wanted to -- that's rhetorical. 16 How can people I I wanted to also add, to remind you that 17 natural gas produces methane. Methane acts as a natural, 18 it's -- to strangle you, and it basically replaces oxygen 19 levels. 20 for yourselves, the amount of oxygen -- the amount of 21 methane that will be produced by the these proposed 22 natural gas pipelines is very detrimental to the public 23 health, and many of the levels will even cause death, 24 multiple deaths. 25 public health crisis that you can prevent by making it And what I looked up, and you can look this up This is a public health emergency, a Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 105 1 affordable and accessible to be able to have access to 2 solar, for community members to have access to solar. 3 wanted to reiterate that. I 4 And then we've heard many of the examples 5 of many of the downed wires, many of the deaths that have 6 occurred from the downed wires, and I'm concerned as a 7 citizen and as a resident of the earth about our planet 8 and about climate change, and I'm also really concerned 9 because we already don't have access to fresh, clean 10 water, and I'm very concerned about the impacts of waste 11 that this utility will have on our water systems and our 12 fresh water systems in our region. 13 14 Again, I want to thank you for coming out, you made the right decision. 15 16 JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Ms. Carter. Brad Williams. 17 MR. WILLIAMS: Good evening. My name is 18 Brad Williams, I work for the Detroit Regional Chamber. 19 The Detroit Regional Chamber is the third largest Chamber 20 of Commerce in the country, and we represent 21 approximately 3,000 businesses throughout southeast 22 Michigan. 23 economy of our region so that people can be employed and 24 we can have a prosperous region. 25 I appreciate the perspective of DTE's residential Our mission as an organization is to build the So I'm here today, and Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 106 1 customers, I'm here to offer the perspective of DTE's 2 business customers. 3 We have made great strides in this state 4 in improving our business climate over the last several 5 years, but none of that matters if when our members go to 6 open their factory or their store or their business in 7 the morning and they flip on the light switch and the 8 lights don't come on. 9 So we've been involved in energy policy 10 for a number of years, particularly in the 2016 energy 11 law that improved the process and transparency for energy 12 generation and planning between energy providers and 13 their customers. 14 believe it provides affordable and reliable energy for 15 our members. 16 signature industry here in Michigan, the automotive 17 industry, which is moving more and more towards 18 electrification, which is good for the environment and 19 good for Michigan. 20 hope for your approval. 21 22 We support this IRP because we do That's all the more important with our So we are in support of this IRP and Thank you. JUDGE MACK: Lewis Novak. Thank you, Mr. Williams. Louis Novak, Mr. Novak. 23 Paul Jonna. 24 MR. JONNA: 25 behalf of the Chaldean Chamber of Commerce. Good evening. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. Paul Jonna on The Chaldean 248.360.8865 107 1 community has over about 160,000 Chaldeans in this area, 2 contributes to about $11 billion annually to the Michigan 3 economy. 4 it's not an easy subject to talk about, and obviously 5 with all the information that's been given here today. 6 I just want to talk a little bit about I want to thank everyone for being here today, 7 the people at DTE. 8 a corporation, but from our experience, DTE has been 9 great at responding to our members' needs, especially 10 when opening up new businesses, which is vital to the 11 economy of Michigan, and we kind of need their support of 12 doing these -- making sure that energy is reliable, that 13 it's safe, and that people are able to open up their 14 businesses. 15 Today we've heard a lot about DTE as I also want to talk about the Chaldean 16 Foundation, which services about 31,000 people annually 17 for social services. 18 and helped some of our citizens to make sure that their 19 power is on, and they've been great partners with us, and 20 as with the community. 21 this, and thank you for your time today. 22 23 24 25 DTE has stepped in time after time So we are in full support of JUDGE MACK: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Jonna. Diana Post. MS. POST: Hi. Thanks for being here. I'm a Detroit resident, a DTE customer, and a young Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 108 1 person, and I am not in favor of the IRP. 2 I always pictured that I'd be a mom, it's 3 a big deal for me, and I'm afraid to be a mom. And I'm 4 an activist, and I'm afraid of climate change, and I'm 5 afraid of our future, and this plan is a joke. 6 ridiculous. 7 investment in renewable energy, just like solar. 8 going to reiterate some of the things people said, some 9 really bright points. It's So it has a complete lack of substantial I'm And it has an increase in natural 10 gas infrastructure that does not ensure safety, something 11 that was mentioned in a mission of this organization. 12 It is important that you regulate DTE so 13 that their control over the energy system does not 14 overpower the common good. 15 future that is liveable for our children. 16 operate business as usual, and we can not rely on DTE to 17 make decisions for our communities that are motivated by 18 corporate interests. 19 We need to bring about a We can not I request that the Commission reject the 20 IRP and send DTE back to the drawing board. 21 JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Ms. Post. MS. SKINNER: Hi, good evening. 22 23 Thank you. Nancy Skinner. Thank you for being here. My name 24 is Nancy Skinner. 25 actually a candidate for the Michigan Public Service Metro Court Reporters, Inc. I am 248.360.8865 109 1 Commission for the seat up July 2, Mr. Saari. 2 awkward, but thank you for your service and all of the 3 service that you provide. 4 5 I have also been working on climate change solutions for over 25 years. 6 MS. POST: 7 MS. SKINNER: 8 JUDGE MACK: 9 Diane, is it? Diana. Diana, we have solutions. Ms. Skinner, could you address your comments to the Commission. 10 11 It's MS. SKINNER: Yep. I just -- I was moved by her. 12 JUDGE MACK: 13 MS. SKINNER: I thank you. O.K. So here's -- I looked 14 at the IRP, and I wrote a whitepaper that got the 15 endorsement of the Michigan Environment, the MDP- 16 Environmental Caucus, as well as the House democratic 17 leader based on my whitepaper, which I have and I'll 18 submit. 19 back with something that's better for DTE. 20 Wait for it. 21 better for the Big Three automakers, better for the 22 environmentalists, which I am, better for consumers, 23 better for labor, and better for the Governor to fix the 24 damn roads. 25 And I'd like to send the IRP back to DTE to come All right. Better for DTE, better for Consumers, Now, here's the plan in short. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. I worked 248.360.8865 110 1 on climate change for 25 years. We at the state level 2 have to fix this, it's not being done at the federal 3 level. 4 missions, so we can effect that drastically. 5 very rare that you have a plan that makes everybody 6 happy, but if we can build out the EV infrastructure or 7 electrify the transportation sector, that's the largest 8 emitting sector next to power generation. 9 it because they want to sell more EV cars, they've all 10 stated that now, so this will help reduce what's called 11 range anxiety. 12 charging revenues than they will if people are filling up 13 their gas tanks. 14 so you could charge at work. 15 stations that are Wi-Fi and they're for fleets of all 16 kinds; municipal buses, school buses, Uber, whatnot. And transportation is the biggest sector of the Now, it's The autos need The utilities will get far more revenues, So workplaces could have tax credits, There are now charging 17 That reduces battery size. But those 18 batteries in those big fleets also serve as storage units 19 for energy. 20 climate change increases, heat waves in the summer and 21 more Polar Vortexes, that is the future, so those big 22 batteries are bidirectional charging. 23 utilities need to buy back, instead of a 10:00 p.m. text 24 alert as we had January 30th of last year saying shut 25 down your thermostat, they can preorganize to sell back So when we have peak loads, which we will as Metro Court Reporters, Inc. So when the 248.360.8865 111 1 those, that energy from those stored batteries. 2 solves the problem of storage which many people have 3 talked about. 4 storage, those batteries are storage. 5 community, they could go back to work at Hamtramck and 6 Warren and they can start making these charging stations. 7 These are jobs and advanced batteries. 8 building new plants. 9 utilities, because they'll make so much more money and 10 grow, then they can reduce their investment in natural 11 gas. 12 That It's not just solar and wind and separate So the labor We can be This is something that the Now, natural gas is an oxymoron. There's 13 nothing natural about the way they frack gas. And this 14 is another myth I want to kind of crush you. 15 financial analyst, I went to the University of Michigan 16 Business School. 17 as if it's a reliable source of energy. 18 there's been a lot of recent reporting by the Wall Street 19 Journal, Forbes, not exactly liberal rags, you can Google 20 this, and oilprice.com's headline is the shale boom is 21 going bust. 22 off, the shale operators, their projections were for 23 those profits to continue into the future forever, but as 24 the Wall Street Journal and others were reporting, those 25 parent wells they first drilled which were gushers, now I'm a Everybody's talking about natural gas Here's the deal: The truth is, In 2006 when shale took Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 112 1 that they're building child wells next to them and those 2 wells are now decreasing production significantly, such 3 that the market cap on these shale operators have fallen 4 like to 60-80 percent. 5 financing from Wall Street, the debt credit that they 6 got, like Enbridge is 90 -- their debt-to-equity ratio 7 right now is 90.90 percent. 8 9 So the easy credit they got That's insane. So Enbridge issued in 2018 1 billion shares of stock. That brings them up to 2.2 billion 10 shares outstanding, because they couldn't get anymore 11 debt credit. 12 Enbridge, as a shale company. 13 is going to be there for this lifespan of 40 or 60 years 14 is ridiculous. 15 So they're running on fumes themselves, So to think that the gas And there's no better proof that they 16 know they're in trouble than I looked at the insider 17 trading transactions, public information, everyone can 18 read it, and the president, the executive vice president 19 and president sold at a loss the $550,000, his stock in 20 Enbridge, March 15, and the executive vice president of 21 development investment sold his stock at a loss of 22 241,000 on March -- or February 15 of this year. 23 they issue a billion shares of stock and then sell out? 24 25 JUDGE MACK: Why did Ms. Skinner, if you can conclude, please. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 113 1 MS. SKINNER: My point is that the idea 2 that the Commission can even consider natural gas or 3 shale gas as a reliable long-term resource is a 4 misconception that is now coming to light in markets. 5 Finally, I'll close out on what everyone 6 else said. I have worked with all the top scientists, 7 they have now concluded, it's called sigma 5, 8 99.999-percent certainty. 9 about what we need to do about that says there is no And the U.N. report talking 10 documented historic precedent for the sweeping change to 11 energy, transportation, and other systems required to 12 reach 1.5 degree C. 13 climate change wrote in a report requested as part of 14 that -- of the 2015 Paris agreement. 15 than 11 years to make drastic transitions to renewable 16 energy. 17 build out the EV infrastructure, everyone wins. 18 winner for everybody, and mostly, for the planet. 19 you very much. So again, now less And in Michigan, if we implement this plan to 20 21 The U.N. governmental panel on JUDGE MACK: Freman Hendrix. It's a Thank Thank you, Ms. Skinner. Mr. Hendrix. 22 Amanda Mayer. Ms. Mayer. 23 Gibran Washington. 24 MR. WASHINGTON: 25 JUDGE MACK: Gibran. Gibran. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. Sorry. 248.360.8865 114 1 MR. WASHINGTON: Thank you for coming 2 here. 3 that it's been a lot of really great comments and 4 interesting comments, I hope you've kind of taken note 5 and taken them to heart, and really just to keep in mind 6 that the business community, they will be all right, 7 they'll always be all right. 8 their customers, they'll be taken care of, but regular 9 citizens, those are people you really got to look out 10 11 I'm speaking on behalf as a resident. I think DTE will make sure that for. And in the last 60 days, I live in 12 District 2 in Detroit, born and raised in Detroit, I've 13 had three power outages. 14 it's kind of sketchy. 15 cut trees, but trees grow, and scrambling to cut trees is 16 still not sufficient. 17 solar is foolish. 18 you can dispatch it from a long distance doesn't make 19 sense, doesn't make sense because when the power goes 20 down, if you've got power being produced closer nearby in 21 your area what's around you, you can much more easily 22 from a prompter sitting in a room make adjustments and 23 dispatch power to downed areas, right, as opposed to some 24 long-distance location. 25 they lose food when power goes out, formula, diabetics, So talk about reliability, eh, So they have been scrambling to The idea of blocking community Centralized power and the idea that Residents that have children, Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 115 1 things have to stay cold, it's not like -- it's like 2 people said, it's not a game. 3 So when they throw up 11-megawatt solar 4 pilot, that's not even funny. Like why? Why not 5 500 megawatts of solar, community solar, where people who 6 rent, people who don't own a house, how do you access -- 7 how do you try to be more efficient if you get the bulbs 8 and you do all the other things, how can you drive it 9 down? You don't really have a lot of money. Maybe you 10 can pay a little bit on a panel or two over a year and 11 own maybe four or six panels. 12 available us to; it's really in your hands to allow those 13 options to be available to all of us, not just those that 14 have money. 15 Those options aren't I have no sympathy for corporate actors. 16 Backup generators and put some renewable energy on your 17 warehouse roof like a lot of Ford and (inaudible) 18 companies do. 19 oh, DTE is going to make sure we have power and then you 20 going to put it on the backs of the lower class people, 21 the people who are working hard two and three jobs, 22 that's not right. 23 like they go up for the regular residents. 24 always going to go up for the regular residents, they 25 needs to always go up there. Sitting on your laurels and hoping that, The rates should go up for them just If they're Oh, that's not a business- Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 116 1 friendly climate you don't want to create in Michigan. 2 You got to innovate. 3 innovate. 4 You can't stop, not want to Massachusetts, Minnesota, all these other 5 states, they're progressive, there are people in their 6 state houses are being progressive, their commissions are 7 being progressive. 8 They're not letting the utility dictate to them. 9 say you begin to dictate to DTE. 10 They see the writing on the wall. So I They got to do better. It's not enough. 11 Just simple things, just even being able 12 to pay on your bill, pay for something, on-bill 13 financing, all these little measures that are not 14 available to residents keeps you in the dark ages, keeps 15 you back so that when the real technologies land and hit, 16 we won't be ready, we will always be behind, Michigan 17 will be behind and Michigan will be playing catch up 18 excuses. 19 Commissions after you or those before you that made 20 excuses to make excuses and hold them to the fire. 21 important. 22 So it's in your hands to not allow other It's It's important for our children, it's 23 important for my daughter when I talk about science with 24 her and talk about the future and technologies, but, oh, 25 yeah, you know, in Michigan it's different. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. That's 248.360.8865 117 1 really kind of -- unless I get into politics, oh, it's 2 politics. 3 states? 4 they're embracing the future. 5 say. But what about these other places, the other Well, I guess they're not scared of the future, 6 7 JUDGE MACK: Bob Nelson. 8 9 So that's all I have to Thank you, Mr. Washington. Mr. Nelson. MR. NELSON: Chairman Talberg, Commissioner Saari, Commissioner Scripps, it's been 20 10 years since I took a seat where are you today, and I 11 always found it a valuable experience to come to Detroit 12 to have a public hearing, and so we really appreciate you 13 coming today to hear the citizens of this great historic 14 city. 15 I am here as president of the new 16 Citizens Utility Board of Michigan, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit 17 organization that was created out of the need for 18 critical representation for residential ratepayers. 19 so there is going to be released in the next few weeks a 20 report, a report card on Michigan utilities comparing 21 them with utilities in other states, and we look at three 22 factors: 23 Environmental impacts. 24 fare well in any of these accounts, but let me focus on 25 the environmental impacts, because I think it's important And (1) Reliability, (2) Affordability, and (3) Now, Michigan is not -- does not Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 118 1 to note that this report will find that Michigan ranks 2 10th worst in terms of emissions of SO2 based on each 3 kilowatt hour in electricity generated, and it also ranks 4 20th worst in terms of CO2 emissions, and so it does not 5 bode well for Michigan's rank among other utilities, but 6 I think the best remedy for these considerably poor 7 rankings is to have more renewable energy. 8 if you look at the DTE's four pathways in their advanced 9 power plan course of action, and two of those pathways And I think 10 suggest that they could survive with no additional fossil 11 fuel generation, and I think if that can be done, it 12 should be done. 13 consideration of those two pathways for the future of 14 DTE. 15 and we will be filing written comments in the E-docket. We would support Commission And again, appreciate you coming here to Detroit, 16 JUDGE MACK: 17 Let's take a break. 18 the record at 7:20. 19 have to conclude this. 20 everybody in that we can. 21 comments. 22 Thank you, Mr. Nelson. We will come back on We have a hard time of 8:30 where we We will go up until 8:30 and get We have about 15 or 16 more (At 7:13 p.m., there was a ten-minute recess.) 23 JUDGE MACK: We are back on the record. 24 Chairman Talberg, you had something to add. 25 MS. TALBERG: Yes. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. I just want to make a 248.360.8865 119 1 couple of acknowledgments. Represent Tyrone Carter is 2 here, he represents the Sixth District which includes 3 parts of Detroit, Ecorse, and River Rouge, so welcome. 4 Thank you for joining us. 5 session, so thank you very much. 6 here, she's the public -- environmental justice public 7 advocate for the Department of Environment, Great Lakes, 8 and Energy, and welcome, and thank you also for helping 9 us organize this event. I know you were late in Also Regina Strong is And that's all. 10 JUDGE MACK: Thank you. 11 MS. PARKER: Yes. Thank you for allowing 12 this opportunity. 13 Parker, and I am testifying in the capacity of my 14 position at Elevate Energy. 15 Illinois-based nonprofit that works nationwide, and we 16 work in Michigan as well. 17 efficiency and solar programs that will (inaudible) 18 cause, protect the environment, and ensure the benefits 19 of clean energy reach those who need it the most. 20 I'll be brief. Briana Parker. My name is Briana Elevate Energy is an We design and implement energy It was stated in the plan that DTE will 21 be retiring coal plants, and so DTE should expand the 22 benefits of clean energy by including greater investments 23 in renewable energy sources like wind and solar and 24 energy efficiency to improve outcomes for everyone, 25 especially low-income communities. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. Again, thank you for 248.360.8865 120 1 this opportunity. 2 JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Ms. Parker. 4 MR. MARCOT: Marcot. 5 JUDGE MACK: Marcot. 6 MR. MARCOT: Thank you for coming here 3 Eric Marcot. 7 and taking the time the entire day, I'm sure it's been a 8 long day for you. 9 have to share our concerns. 10 I just appreciate the time that we I'll make it brief. I'm here as a citizen and as a ratepayer 11 for DTE, and I'm very concerned about climate change, I'm 12 very concerned about our carbon dioxide emissions, and 13 this plan doesn't seem sufficient enough to cover that. 14 So I'm a proponent of clean energy, clean renewable 15 energy, and I want to see that more, also more 16 opportunities for residents like myself to be able to 17 install solar, community solar as well would be great, 18 and there's absolutely no incentives for that, it's very 19 difficult to do those programs with DTE. 20 21 22 JUDGE MACK: Thank you. Thank you. Constance Bodurow. MS. BODUROW: Good evening, Judge Mack, 23 Chairperson Talberg, and Commissioners Scripps and Saari. 24 My name is Constance Bodurow, I'm a community solar 25 advocate and proponent, and also a citizen and small Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 121 1 business owner in Detroit and the state of Michigan. 2 Over the last three years, in conjunction 3 with the Detroit 48204 neighborhood, I've served on a pro 4 bono basis as technical project lead to advance the 5 Seebaldt Pilot, a proposed community solar system serving 6 low- and moderate-income residents. 7 Allen-Frazier, who chairs the residents committee, is 8 also in the audience tonight. 9 Sheila I'll give her a shout-out. We came last year within inches of 10 implementation; the only thing that stopped us from 11 success was interconnection to DTE's grid. 12 three years of collective blood, sweat, and tears, and 13 also a lot of joy and learning. 14 knowledge that community solar is being actively 15 implemented in every single adjacent Great Lakes state, 16 but our project was stopped because Michigan does not 17 have the mechanisms which support community solar. That was We were buoyed by the 18 I have reviewed the DTE IRP; I am certain 19 that a lot of effort and resource went into the plan, but 20 the IRP falls short because it doesn't even mention 21 community solar. 22 to. 23 recipients of the U.S. Department of Energy Solar in Your 24 Community Grant. 25 were awarded the grant, I talked to the DOE administrator It needs to. The MPSC should compel it In 2017 the Seebaldt Pilot was one of several We were first awarded -- when we first Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 122 1 in Washington, D.C., and I said, you know, Michigan is 2 not a receptive regulatory landscape for community solar; 3 her response to me was, I know, but it will be, you need 4 to be the tip of the spear. 5 encouragement, we forged onward in good faith on behalf 6 of DTE's low- and moderate-income ratepayers in Detroit. 7 So with that optimism and DTE's IRP does address renewables; 8 however, I am concerned. Is what DTE proposes in their 9 IRP good enough for the citizens of our state? PB 10 magazine did a review of the entire 648-page IRP, and it 11 reported on April 1 in an article that within the next 12 five years covered by the IRP, "The utility plans to 13 build a grand total of 11 megawatts of solar." 14 that in perspective, my own design firm did an analysis 15 that shows that the publicly owned vacancy in 48204 zip 16 code of Detroit could deliver at least 5 megawatts of 17 solar. 18 years, but by 2020. 19 zip codes in Detroit could deliver the 11 megawatts that 20 DTE is proposing. 21 area might produce. 22 its goal of 50-percent renewals far earlier than 2030, it 23 would have numerous positive impacts in communities where 24 it is most needed. 25 economy, it would improve quality of life, reduce To put That could have been accomplished not in five So let's do math. Just a couple of Imagine what the entire DTE service It would not only allow DTE to meet It would ignite Michigan's new energy Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 123 1 greenhouse gas emissions, it would protect our precious 2 natural environment and on and on. 3 those positive impacts tonight. You've heard all 4 I hope the MPSC will see that DTE's IRP 5 vision is simply not enough of an aspiration, it is not 6 good enough for the citizens of Detroit, and DTE's entire 7 service area. 8 9 We can and should do better. As a citizen of Michigan, I want to remember my father, who was an immigrant in 1960. He was 10 a civil rights attorney, and as he rose through the ranks 11 at Ford, he tried to address the persistent inequities of 12 education and professional opportunity, especially for 13 women and underserved minorities. 14 years to go off and pursue my education and early career. 15 When I returned in the 2000s, I was kind of shocked to 16 see that those inequities hadn't really changed much. 17 in my own work I've tried very much to move that needle. 18 I left Michigan for 20 So Today we have a once in a generation 19 opportunity to create wealth and empowerment in our LMI 20 communities across the state. 21 tracks of affordable vacant parcels provides the 22 opportunity to implement roofless community solar, 23 allowing LMI residents to generate wealth and opportunity 24 for themselves and their communities. 25 The existence of enormous I've always felt we lacked no resource in Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 124 1 Michigan, we have it all, natural, technical, social, 2 cultural, everything; we only need a supportive 3 regulatory landscape and the vision and political will to 4 support it. 5 So really on behalf of the citizens and 6 businesses that DTE serves, I hope the MPSC will compel 7 DTE to embrace community solar as a central strategy and 8 priority, it will help us meet the enhanced renewable 9 energy vision and emission reduction goals. 10 JUDGE MACK: 11 Nicole Marcot. Thank you, Ms. Bodurow. I just butchered that name. 12 MS. MARCOT: Marcot. 13 JUDGE MACK: Marcot. 14 MS. MARTINEZ: I'm sorry. I thought his name was 15 Marcot when I first met him, too. 16 brief points. 17 today. 18 Thank you. Well, I just had a few Thank you for taking time to be here My husband and I did buy into the VGPP 19 program through DTE, and we only did because we had to do 20 a lot of research to discover that it actually exists, 21 it's almost impossible to discover that that's actually a 22 program, and because we can afford it, and most people 23 can't. 24 we're paying for it as such. 25 fossil fuels as the most affordable option, I read it Renewable energy is not a premium option, yet It's quickly bypassing Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 125 1 over and over again in research, and it doesn't pose the 2 incredible health risks that extraction, transportation, 3 and burning of gas pose to our community and the danger 4 to our environment. 5 Ninety-seven percent of the climate 6 scientists agree that in order to avoid the worst effects 7 of climate change, we must cut greenhouse gases in half 8 by 2030. 9 doing that. Building a new gas-fired power plant is not We can not afford to drag our feet on moving 10 away from coal. 11 plants, gas and coal are simply not an option for our 12 future. 13 We can not develop new fossil fuel gas I'm a resident Detroit, I'm a mother of 14 two very young daughters. 15 climate change, and DTE is not. 16 helping. 17 They're messing with the future of my children and the 18 children of all DTE ratepayers. 19 I'm incredibly concerned about Their IRP is not They can not afford to drag their feet. I'm also getting emotional because, just 20 as Diane shared earlier, this is just something that is a 21 concern to so many people in my generation, those of us 22 who are having children, very young children, and looking 23 into their future and wondering what in the world it's 24 going to be like and what kind of future they have. 25 So I'm please, please, please requesting Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 126 1 the MPSC to require DTE to go back to square one and redo 2 the plan 100 percent. Thank you. 3 JUDGE MACK: Thank you. 4 MS. McPHERSON: Mia McPherson. Good evening. My name is 5 Mia McPherson, I am a senior nursing student at Michigan 6 State University, a health leader fellow with the Ecology 7 Center in Ann Arbor, and a Doris Duke Conservation 8 Scholar at the University of Michigan. 9 resident of Ypsilanti involved with sustainable 10 11 I am a long-time agriculture and environmental justice. Before I begin, I would like to extend 12 gratitude for the opportunity to express my concerns and 13 hopefully elicit urgency for defending fundamental human 14 rights to clean air, water, and other natural resources. 15 I believe healthcare providers must speak 16 up about climate and health. We have unique medical 17 expertise and a responsibility to the population we serve 18 to be their advocates beyond the bedside. 19 a result of pollution and climate change, the healthcare 20 industry will bear the cost and responsibility for 21 addressing climate-related disease exacerbations, which 22 is especially concerning for the nursing profession 23 already experiencing workforce shortages and a lack of 24 environmental health education. 25 pollution will fall on patients through medical bills and Ultimately as Repercussions of air Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 127 1 psychosocial burdens of maintaining chronic health 2 conditions. 3 The climate crisis is our greatest 4 concern and challenge today, thus making regulatory 5 policy and aggressive strategic plans imperative in 6 addressing the mitigation of pollution. 7 here, I am concerned about coal plants and 8 epidemiological -- 9 JUDGE MACK: 10 Could you just slow down. 11 problem. Excuse me, Ms. McPherson. I think we're having a 12 THE REPORTER: 13 MS. McPHERSON: 14 THE REPORTER: Sorry. I talk fast when But I can't write it down. Sorry. 17 18 I can't understand what -- I get nervous. 15 16 Like many others MS. McPHERSON: to you. 19 Oh, O.K. I can give this Thank you for the reminder. -- linking air pollution to adverse 20 health outcomes such as COPD, asthma, and lung cancer. 21 Fossil fuel pollutants from coal plants also contaminate 22 surface and groundwater with mercury, lead, and other 23 toxins. 24 the Flint Water Crisis? 25 will have human health implications that will transcend Have we not learned from the atrocity that is Michigan's overreliance on coal Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 128 1 generations. 2 According to the American Thoracic 3 Society, ozone pollution in Michigan was associated with 4 275 excess deaths annually, making Michigan the seventh 5 worst state for premature ozone pollution related deaths. 6 Additionally, 640 serious illnesses such as myocardial 7 infarction and chronic bronchitis are excessive 8 morbidities associated with ozone pollution. 9 Preventative health efforts such as environmental 10 protections are cheaper than reactive healthcare, but 11 this will come at the cost of corporate interests. 12 I have cared for patients with 13 bronchitis, asthma, atherosclerosis, and other 14 cardiovascular or respiratory illnesses. 15 them suffer. 16 their poor health puts on their families, finances, and 17 communities. 18 an immediate issue and must be treated as such. 19 have died. 20 or fear-mongering. 21 environmental degradation. 22 I have seen I have witnessed the burden, the burden We do not have until 2025 or 2040; this is More people will die. People This is not hyperbole More residents will die due to DTE has the opportunity to be a leader in 23 energy efficiency and possesses the power to influence 24 acute and chronic health outcomes of the residents of 25 southeast Michigan. For those of us not reaching our Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 129 1 fullest health potential, our communities will be 2 affected socially and economically. 3 make greater efforts for ensuring environmental health 4 and justice. 5 take precedence over financial corporate benefit. 6 you. 7 8 The health of residents and citizens should JUDGE MACK: Sheila Allen-Frazier. 9 I implore you to Thank Thank you, Ms. McPherson. Ms. Frazier. MS. ALLEN-FRAZIER: I had submitted it to 10 be read in entirety, but my name is Sheila Allen-Frazier. 11 I am chairperson of the TCS -- no -- TSP-OBR, that's The 12 Seebaldt Project-One Block Resident. 13 on our -- in our community a solar project, and we're 14 part of the -- I was part of the, that Ms. Bodurow 15 mentioned, part of the project Ms. Bodurow mentioned. 16 And I'm nervous. 17 We have implemented So we have implemented a prototype in my 18 area. We are a low-income, low- to moderate-income 19 neighborhood, so and we have implemented. 20 three years on this project, and as Ms. Bodurow has said, 21 we have gotten to the point we're done with it. 22 done with it. 23 give us the O.K. to interconnect. 24 that, we put in three years of hard work and we would 25 like to see it implemented. We worked We're We've been -- we're waiting for DTE to And but other than And I'm -- I thank you very Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 130 1 2 much. JUDGE MACK: And I apologize, you did 3 mark the box no, that you didn't, but you did a really 4 good job, so thank you. 5 MS. ALLEN-FRAZIER: 6 JUDGE MACK: 7 MR. ANDRE: Thank you. Lee Andre. My name is Lee Andre, and I'm 8 a retired engineer, and I'm from outside Detroit. I'm a 9 farmer, and a member of the Solar Conservation Service 10 which exists in each of the county of the state of 11 Michigan, and we believe that rooftop solar can work for 12 some people, but that to implement a full-blown renewable 13 energy program, there will have to be farm, solar farms 14 in the countryside. 15 Commission to take a larger and more active role in the 16 siting of these farms. 17 they can have dual purposes. 18 And so I'd like the Public Service The reason is that I believe that Last month I attended a solar show in 19 Munich, Germany, in an effort to see what other parts of 20 the world are doing to integrate agricultural land use, 21 community land use, and solar land use, and I found 22 locations where they were retaining water up to four feet 23 deep underneath solar arrays, and I know that when the 24 peak flow occurs during a rain event, that that's the 25 time that most of the phosphorus and most of the sediment Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 131 1 enter Lake Erie, and that as the Public Service 2 Commission, if we would carefully site solar arrays that 3 were designed to do that kind of water detention, that we 4 would be able to finance through electrical generation 5 much of the environmental improvement that's needed to 6 protect the lake. 7 detention basins that were built to protect the runoff 8 from parking lots, these of course are very small, but I 9 think in a large setting, we could look at each watershed 10 and we could find a thousand acres that could be covered 11 with solar, and when there's a rain event maybe twice a 12 year or a big event every five years, those locations 13 could actually reduce the way that the rain event affects 14 Lake Erie. 15 you know, of how do we improve the electrical 16 infrastructure in this state. And so I -- in our county, we have 115 So I'd like to, you guys to expand your view, 17 And of course once we distribute power, 18 we have all the advantages of distributed power, but we 19 also have distributed tax base, we have distributed 20 employment, and I think the, what the new economy could 21 look like rests somewhat in your hands. 22 This situation that the governor did two 23 weeks ago where she reversed -- where we she allowed 24 farmland preserved, things from Public Act 116, to become 25 solar farms, this means that big farms are now in place, Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 132 1 the utilities that want to build them will build a big 2 array. 3 underneath it is a little bit of a joke because they can 4 only fly about two or three miles. 5 better to have distributed power in many locations so the 6 bees have more homes. 7 thing about water retention. And the fact that they are going to have bees 8 9 It would be much And I have just said the same So the 2018 farm bill talks about 2 million acres set aside for wetlands and for water 10 detention, and I think if half of that or a quarter of 11 that could be under solar, the cash flow from the public 12 coffers to take that kind of land out of production could 13 be financed by the electricity that's built, that's 14 generated. 15 Thank you very much. JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Mr. Andre. 17 MS. THOMAS: Good evening. 18 like to thank you all for coming to Detroit. 19 a frontline community that is greatly impacted by energy 20 providers such as DTE, as well as other regulated and 21 unregulated industry in this country and in this state. 22 Detroit -- can you hear me? 23 JUDGE MACK: 16 24 25 Maria Thomas. First I'd Detroit is Hello. Let's go off the record. (Brief pause to change the microphone.) MS. THOMAS: So as you probably know, Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 133 1 Detroit is host to the filthiest zip code in the entire 2 state of Michigan. 3 work in that zip code often do not see the age of 65 to 4 be able to partake in the benefits that they worked all 5 their lives for because of high instances of asthma, 6 COPD, cancers, all due to the fallout and pollution of 7 the industries that are in that zip code. 8 many, pollution has no walls. 9 48217, but it is concentrated there. 10 People that live in that zip code and Unbeknownst to So it doesn't just fall on I come to you today as someone who works 11 for a very small nonprofit that is very progressive and 12 is doing wonderful things called Soulardarity, but I come 13 to you most specifically because I am a resident, a 14 life-long resident the city of Detroit. 15 old, I am a 20-year survivor of a diagnosis of breast 16 cancer, and I'm also a person of faith. 17 right now the Lord is screaming at us because it's June 18 the 20th and the farmers can not plant in the state of 19 Michigan because the ground is still too impacted by 20 water. 21 because it's the right thing to do. 22 stewards to shareholders and alleviate the need to serve 23 the public, as you are tasked to do, and it is identified 24 that you are tasked to do because you are the Michigan 25 Public Service Commission, not the Michigan Shareholders Wake up. I'm 63 years And I believe It's time for us to do the right thing Metro Court Reporters, Inc. We can not be good 248.360.8865 134 1 Service Commission. 2 I implore you to reject the IRP submitted 3 by DTE. I implore you to require, not request, that DTE 4 be better neighbors. 5 request, that DTE make it easier for community solar to 6 be implemented in our state and in our region. 7 I implore you to require, and not Detroit, as you may know, has an 8 unemployment rate that hovers well above the state and 9 well above the national norm. Detroit has a poverty 10 level that is still hovering well above 30 percent. 11 new alternative energy, solar, wind, water, could all be 12 used to lift people from poverty. 13 strain off of the state because less people would need 14 assistance from DHS. 15 health centers in the system because it would reduce the 16 amounts of asthma, COPD, cancer, and other diseases that 17 are directly related to pollution. 18 So That would take a It would take a strain off of the But as has been stated before many times, 19 scientists have determined that we have less than ten 20 years to change the trajectory of the pollution and the 21 carbon footprint that has been produced in the last 50 to 22 100 years that is destroying entire populations of animal 23 species as we speak. 24 animals. 25 but we won't. And we must remember we are So the earth may survive in a damaged state, Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 135 1 When the Native Americans that occupied 2 this land before it was invaded make a decision that's 3 going to impact the tribe, they don't make the decision 4 based upon a quarter, which is what corporations such as 5 DTE do, they base those decisions based upon the effects 6 of the next seven generations. 7 quarter of a year to the next seven generations. 8 your children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, and 9 generations following that be able to survive? We need to look beyond a You can run, but you can't hide. Will Mine 10 won't. 11 the right thing, because it's the right thing to do. 12 We need to do Please, I implore you, I beseech you, and 13 I pray that you will reject this IRP. 14 the drawing board. 15 that are on the frontline to the table so that they have 16 not just on the menu. 17 18 19 Send them back to Be good neighbors and invite people Thank you. JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Ms. Thomas. Traci Rink. MS. RINK: Hi. My name is Traci Rink, 20 and I represent many of these obviously points of view, 21 but want to start by saying I'm newcomer to energy 22 policy, it's not something I know a lot about. 23 attorney, I work for Oakland County in the capacity as a 24 referee, and I obviously want to make clear that I'm not 25 here in that capacity. I'm I'm speaking as a homeowner, I'm Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 136 1 a homeowner in West Bloomfield. 2 We signed papers and are having solar 3 panels installed on Monday at a great expense. And I 4 want to say to the people that are here and I -- that I 5 think I represent a demographic that you're going to see 6 more and more of, and that is people that have not been 7 in the frontline of activism for years, although I 8 consider myself an activist, but people who are voting 9 with their dollars. And I think that to the extent I can 10 make choices with my money and how I spend my money, I'm 11 going to make choices that are environmentally friendly. 12 You know, I'm middle class, middle 13 income, but I think that Michigan needs to do everything 14 we possibly can to make sure that we are in the 15 forefront, that we're a leader, not a follower, when it 16 comes to renewable energy, because there's no dispute 17 that that's where things have to go. 18 situation, it's a win for jobs, win for clean energy, win 19 for the environment. 20 It's a win-win I can't -- you know, when I'm a senior 21 and I am able to leave Michigan or to retire, I want to 22 retire to a place that represents my values; I don't want 23 Michigan to lose anymore citizenry because we are behind 24 the times when it comes to representing where people are 25 coming from. But whether I go to France or go to Montana Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 137 1 or go to Wisconsin, we aren't going to be able to go 2 somewhere where the effects of climate change are not 3 very clear. 4 And I feel very badly for the lady who 5 had, you know, people who have young kids. 6 is 22 years old, she's a physicist and she lives in 7 British Columbia where I sent her to school. 8 able to avoid gun blinds, but she's not going to be able 9 to avoid climate change, it's going to happen there. 10 best friend just got back from a U.N. mission in the 11 Maldive Islands, it is getting decimated by the sea 12 change. 13 United Nations and saw the devastating effects of the 14 rise of sea level. 15 My daughter She may be My She's there on a human rights mission with the I've worked with Nancy Skinner in the 16 past, and I have not -- and she's done a great job 17 representing us in the forefront of these issues that are 18 facing us, but this is not a fringe issue anymore. 19 are not people that there's a handful of people that come 20 out for the co-ops and the, you know, community 21 associations and the fringe issues, this is something 22 that's going to affect all of us, and the fact that some 23 people are slower maybe on the uptake to see that it's 24 affecting, going to be affecting them soon, they're 25 going -- it's going to be there soon. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 These 138 1 We have an electric car and, you know, we 2 have a, as somebody else said, a monopolistic energy 3 situation, so it's whoever, my provider is DTE, my 4 provider is Consumers Energy, so we're stuck with their 5 policies, but I can't see where the continued use of 6 nonrenewable resources has helped with anybody, including 7 the people producing them, including the workers who mine 8 them out of the grounds, including the frackers. 9 is simply no upside to continuing down that road. 10 What else did I want to say. There It sounds 11 to me, and I'm not going to lie, I have not read too much 12 about the IRP, but it sounds like, based on what I'm 13 hearing, it's not something I think is in the best 14 interest of the state of Michigan. 15 I don't have problems when it comes to getting my 16 installation approved in few weeks. 17 And I am hoping that Just give me one second. I think we need 18 to go back to the one-on-one net metering. I think 19 everybody in this room and many, many, many, many people 20 that are not in this room actually are all possible 21 resources for the state. 22 people that have spoken will be happy to put a wind power 23 or solar energy on their home and give it to DTE to help 24 the state. 25 although I really can't, I'm just doing it because it I bet almost any one of the I mean I may be able to afford to do it, Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 139 1 means a lot to me, but we are all resources, we are all 2 resources that could be put into play to make sure that 3 Michigan is in the forefront of combating climate change. 4 I guess that's what I wanted to say, so I thank you for 5 the opportunity to speak to you. 6 7 JUDGE MACK: Matthew Borke. 8 9 Thank you, Ms. Rink. MR. BORKE: Matthew Borke. 10 Hello there. My name is Thank you for all joining us today. First question I guess I would bring up 11 to you, I know you can't respond to these things, is I'm 12 always curious as to how these things are advertised. 13 do the public hearings all the time, and I think that 14 this is great newsworthy material that I never seem to 15 see advertised anywhere other than by the activist 16 communities, and I would appreciate it if this real news 17 was something that we brought out to all the members of 18 the public. 19 We So I came down here from Flint, so 20 obviously I have some issues with water. I'd like to 21 kind of go over some practical information on the fact 22 that we are here in Michigan and we have no more clean 23 water. 24 that has PFOS in it. 25 said, sorry, there's no regulations against PFOS in I see that bottle of Nestle there; unfortunately We called up Nestle last year, they Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 140 1 bottled water, so although we're know it's in there, 2 we're not going to filter it out. 3 Let's go over some history about what 4 happened this last year. Over the wintertime we shut 5 down our -- were asked to turn down our temperature 6 gauges to 60 degrees; through that we released publicly 7 that we needed 3.7 billion cubic feet of natural gas a 8 day in our worst times for all of lower Michigan. 9 would like to point out that in 2017, Energy Transfer I 10 Partners came in, moved it in to Michigan with a pipeline 11 called Rover Pipeline. 12 a day, as well in 2018 Enbridge put in Nexus with the 13 help of DTE, putting in Nexus Pipeline, which pumps 1.5 14 billion cubic square feet a day. 15 4.75 billion cubic square feet of natural gas a day, 16 every single day, and that's just in the last two years. 17 So where is that gas going? 18 about things like that because there is no mercaptan in 19 that, which means that it's not been -- for those who 20 don't know what mercaptan is, it's the odorant that helps 21 to notice when the gas is leaking, so we're seeing 22 problems with this system that they're telling us about 23 what we need. 24 gas is for us, what are we going to next see? 25 It pumps 3.25 billion cubic feet Now, that totals Well, like we have to wonder If they use eminent domain and said this So they had a hard time getting Nexus in Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 141 1 because the Nexus is a 36-inch pipe, Rover is a 42-inch 2 pipe. 3 twice as much gas a day, but only six-inch difference. 4 So they had to work very hard with trying to approve 5 Nexus and show that we needed this new pipeline, even 6 though, again, it's not for our country, but it's backed 7 by DTE. Rover somehow is pumping twice as -- more than 8 Now what happens next? Well, they tell 9 us, well, we're going to take -- we're going to put in 10 this infrastructure for you, while they go to our local 11 banks and they take out our money that we put in our 12 local banks and they use that to invest in this pipeline 13 and then they roll in all of the costs of this 14 infrastructure then back onto the paying residents. 15 we're hearing about new gas plants that we need and the 16 need for, so what's going to happen next? 17 new gas plant, and so now we're responsible to support 18 that natural gas plant, even though the residents might 19 not need it. 20 turn up the heat; we need to use this infrastructure, we 21 just spent all this money and now we need to use it. 22 we're kind of as residents being put in a stuck position 23 and we're being lied to unfortunately. 24 talking about what our needs are for our local heating 25 sources and our local electricity sources, it doesn't So So we build a Well, if we're not using enough gas, well, Metro Court Reporters, Inc. So So when we're 248.360.8865 142 1 seem like they're being honest with us. 2 O.K. What's going to happen after that? 3 So you have natural gas that comes from fracking. 4 going to be looking at doing that locally? 5 all of our gas from locally within our state? 6 just means opening up fracking just everywhere in 7 Michigan, that way we can get it locally. 8 happens next? 9 plant. O.K. Are we Would we want Well, that But then what Oh, it has to go to what we call a cracker They don't want to put the mercaptan in the 10 gas before it goes to a cracker plant because then the 11 company has to waste money on taking it out before they 12 crack it. 13 the extra methane to the air. 14 looking at these new gas plants also talking about 15 putting in hundreds of new cracker plants here in 16 Michigan, or are we going to ship it over to Canada, 17 crack it over there, and then ship it back to the United 18 States? 19 factual evidence of what's happening with these natural 20 gas things that are going all across the country and how 21 the citizens are kind of being lied to with where this 22 gas is going and what it's used as. 23 24 25 O.K. The cracking process is a lot what adds So are we also on top of So I mean just trying to lay down as much Again, thank you for coming out here for us and joining us. Have a nice day. JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Mr. Borke. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 Joel 143 1 2 Batterman. MR. BATTERMAN: Good evening. Thank you 3 for the opportunity to speak. 4 I'm a resident of Detroit, and unlike a lot of folks 5 here, I'm not an expert on energy, but I do see that your 6 mission as the Michigan Public Service Commission is to 7 protect the public, and I just don't see that approving 8 DTE's proposal could be consistent with that. 9 does it threaten to eventually raise rates at a time when 10 a number of my neighbors are running on kerosene because 11 they can't afford to pay already, but the proposal fails 12 to move us beyond fossil fuels, the fossil fuels that are 13 killing our planet. 14 My name is Joel Batterman, Not only Like a lot of folks my age -- like a lot 15 of folks our age, my wife and I are thinking about 16 whether to have children, and while there are a few 17 different considerations that go into that, one of them 18 is whether our kids would -- will inherit a planet that's 19 good for people to live on. 20 For the past month or so, DTE's been 21 tearing up our street to put in a new gas line, and every 22 morning I wake up and look out the window and wonder, is 23 this really the best that we can do? 24 time to be doubling down on fossil fuels? 25 same workers were helping weatherize homes on our street Metro Court Reporters, Inc. Is this really the What if those 248.360.8865 144 1 or installing community solar? 2 The science on this has been clear for 3 years. The moral imperative is obvious, and if DTE 4 doesn't recognize it, I hope to God that you will. 5 you. 6 7 JUDGE MACK: Thank you, Mr. Batterman. Ian Tran. 8 9 Thank MR. TRAN: and Judge. Good evening, Commissioners Thank you for coming to Detroit. As you 10 heard before, this is a very important issue to many of 11 us in the community. 12 My name is Ian Tran, and while I've 13 marked on my sheet that I am advocacy chair for the U.S. 14 Green Building Council Detroit Chapter in Michigan, the 15 comments that I'll be providing are as a private citizen, 16 but they are representative of the work and information 17 that I've learned over the past, since 2015, dating back 18 to the Snyder administration and the policy vision and 19 some of the impacts with energy. 20 The number one thing that I'd like to 21 highlight is to consider energy resilience and economic 22 resilience as well, and some of the challenges that are 23 associated with it for DTE is it's just a very different 24 or fundamental difference in paradigms for how the 25 businesses can work and also how operations can be done. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 145 1 One of the things that you've heard from today is there 2 are at least four or five solar companies here in 3 Detroit, but they're grass roots and they're small 4 business, they're not a monopoly-scale Wal-Mart-like 5 DTE-sized operation. 6 And DTE, it was in 2018 they had received 7 accusations of suppressing entry into the solar market in 8 an NPR article, and also as far as even how they shaped 9 some of the local municipal requirements and the pricing 10 because their cost estimates and just the economy of 11 scale that they have, they set things in a different 12 level than what many of the communities would do in terms 13 of how neighborhoods might source neighbors literally 14 just to help with installation rather than bringing in 15 full-rate tradespeople or other sources in consultation. 16 Secondly, when comes to looking at the 17 market, DTE isn't -- shouldn't be seen as the only 18 provider. 19 organizations take leadership. 20 to necessarily adhere to the same degree of reliability 21 standards in the sense that if a local community is 22 working on a micro grid, for example, there's nothing 23 that's -- that should -- and I understand there's some 24 regulations that are in place that differ, but they 25 should differ -- or I'm sorry -- they should stop them We have an opportunity to let other And also they don't have Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 146 1 from potentially disconnecting portions of the house from 2 the grid and operating off grid, and just having that 3 option is a benefit. 4 Another thing I'd like to raise is that 5 in 2018 Consumers Energy collaborated with the U.S. 6 military National Guard for Project Delta Force, and 7 they've already installed a micro grid here in Michigan 8 that's going on 1.1 megawatts of solar energy. 9 technology is feasible, and it's underway just on the 10 So the west side of Michigan at Fort Custer. 11 And second, I wanted to urge the Public 12 Service Commission to consider that the -- there's a 2017 13 public health action plan that assessed pollution 14 requirements, I can send this in my comments e-mailed, 15 but a list of them really speak to some of the things 16 that the Public Service Commission can do as a 17 facilitator and also in potentially denying the request 18 for this IRP. 19 indoor air quality, buffers and barriers, compliance and 20 enforcement, and enhanced ambient monitoring were all key 21 strategic priorities for reducing severe public health 22 impacts in southwest Detroit, especially in Detroit as a 23 city. 24 adjacent to the 48217 area code, and also suffers from 25 higher than national average air pollution. Point source controls, renewable energy, I happen to be a resident of 48216, which is Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 147 1 A third thing is, as far as potential 2 recommendations, again, like the MPSC could potentially 3 develop a stopgap fund for prioritizing weatherization 4 and energy optimization. 5 Valerie Brader was still viable and it's more or less not 6 changed under the Gretchen Whitmer administration, and 7 many of those priorities are still not yet met. 8 Although, again, the best megawatt/kilowatt saved is the 9 one that you're saving. Governor Snyder's plan under So being able to invest savings 10 on a collective level, especially on small residential or 11 small-scale power providers or businesses, I feel that 12 the state, Michigan, has the potential to convene and do 13 something very similar to, let's say, the Michigan 14 State's program, which that is almost their, their 15 mission in terms of providing work. 16 And then finally, as far as considering 17 evacuation planning, as someone else had raised as far as 18 cyber security threats and also just other domestic 19 challenges, the city of Detroit really isn't in a 20 position to do that. 21 to really urge that, by denying this proposal, it also 22 gives us time as residents and as a small business public 23 sector or private sector also to coalesce. 24 JUDGE MACK: 25 Lindberg. So those are the things that I want Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Tran. Ms. Lindberg. Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 Judy 148 1 That is all the cards that we have. Is 2 there anybody who wanted to the address the Commission 3 who I haven't called? 4 5 O.K. With that, I will turn it over to the chair. 6 MS. TALBERG: All right. Thank you, 7 Judge Mack. Thank you to all of our staff who helped 8 organize this event, I know it was a lot of hard work on 9 their part. Thank you all for sticking with us to the 10 end, we appreciated the input that we received this 11 evening. 12 our court reporter, Lori Penn, that's hard work to 13 capture all the comments throughout the evening, and so 14 appreciate your effort on that. 15 16 Good evening. 19 20 And that concludes our meeting. 17 18 And I also want to give a special shout-out to JUDGE MACK: We're off the record. you. (At 8:10 p.m., the public meeting concluded.) - - - 21 22 23 24 25 Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865 Thank 149 1 2 C E R T I F I C A T E 3 I, Lori Anne Penn, do hereby certify that I 4 reported in stenotype the proceedings had in the 5 within-entitled matter, that being Case No. U-20471, 6 before Dennis W. Mack, Commissioners Sally Talberg, 7 Norman Saari, and Daniel Scripps, at the Wayne County 8 Community College-Downtown Campus, Frank Hayden Community 9 Room, Detroit, Michigan, on Thursday, June 20, 2019; and 10 do further certify that the foregoing transcript, 11 consisting of 149 pages, is a true and correct transcript 12 of my stenotype notes. 13 Lori Anne Penn _______________________________ Digitally signed by Lori Anne Penn DN: cn=Lori Anne Penn, o=Metro Court Reporters, ou=Metro, email=metrostate@sbcglobal.net, c=US Date: 2019.06.26 21:11:04 -04'00' 14 15 16 Lori Anne Penn, CSR-1315 33231 Grand River Avenue Farmington, Michigan 48336 metrostate@sbcglobal.net 17 18 19 20 Dated: 21 22 23 24 25 Metro Court Reporters, Inc. 248.360.8865