Case 1:17-cv-06404-BMC-SMG Document 245-25 Filed 02/21/19 Page 2 of 12 PageID #:
8795
HOWARD RUBIN - 10/25/2018

·1·
· ·
·2·
· ·
·3·
· ·
·4·

·

·UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
·EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
·----------------------------------------------x
·HILLARY LAWSON, KRISTINA HALLMAN,
·STEPHANIE CALDWELL, MOIRA HATHAWAY,
·MACEY SPEIGHT, ROSEMARIE PETERSON, and
·LAUREN FULLER,

·5· · · · · · ·Plaintiffs,· · · · · · Case No.:
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 1:17-cv-06404 (BMC)
·6· · · · · · ·- against ·7
· · ·HOWARD RUBIN, JENNIFER POWERS,
·8· ·and the DOE COMPANY,
·9
· ·
10
· ·
11·
· ·
12·
· ·
13

· · · · · ·Defendants.
·----------------------------------------------x
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·225 Broadway
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·New York, NY 10007
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·October 25, 2018
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·10:11 a.m.

14
15· · · · · · ·VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION of HOWARD RUBIN, in
16· ·the above-entitled action, held at the above time
17· ·and place, pursuant to order, taken before ESTAMARIE
18· ·CASTELLI-VELEZ, a shorthand reporter and Notary
19· ·Public within and for the State of New York.
20
21
22
23
24
25

Epiq Court Reporting Solutions - New York
1-800-325-3376
www.deposition.com

YVer1f

 Case 1:17-cv-06404-BMC-SMG Document 245-25 Filed 02/21/19 Page 3 of 12 PageID #:
8796
Page 70

·1· · · ·

Page 72

·1·
·2·
·3·
·4·
·5·
·6·
·7·
·8·
·9·
10·
11·
12·
13·
14·
15·
16·
17·
18·
19·
20·
21·
22·
23·
24·
25·

· · · A· · So, I will only have any kind of sexual
·relation with another women -- with a woman, if it's
·consensual.
· · · Q· · Do you ever have BDSM sexual interactions
·with men?
· · · A· · No.
· · · Q· · What do you mean by consensual?
· · · A· · That the women has agreed to the type of
·activity, BDSM activity, that we're going to engage
·in.
· · · Q· · How does she show such agreement?
· · · A· · Couple of different ways; she agrees and
·we have a discussion prior to our sexual activity
·beginning and I also use, which is common in BDSM
·sexual play, I use safe words.
· · · · · ·MR. BALESTRIERE:· I'm sorry.· Can you -· · · can you read back the answer again or can I
· · · just look?
· · · Q· · Okay, so you testified about having a
·discussion prior to the sexual activity.· How does
·that discussion go?
· · · A· · I talk, discuss what is going to happen
·beforehand, and just, you know, merely that.· We
·have some kind of discussion beforehand about what
·activity might take place.

·1·
·2·
·3·
·4·
·5·
·6·
·7·
·8·
·9·
10·
11·
12·
13·
14·
15·
16·
17·
18·
19·
20·
21·
22·
23·
24·
25·

· · · Q· · How long does that discussion take?
· · · A· · I could -- it could be short or it could
·be longer.· I don't -· · · Q· · How long is longer?
· · · A· · It could be -- we might discuss it for 60
·minutes or more.
· · · Q· · When you say shorter, how long is that?
· · · A· · A few minutes.
· · · Q· · This is a discussion that you have with
·the women who are submissive prior to engaging in
·any BDSM activity; is that correct?
· · · A· · Yes.
· · · Q· · What specifically do you discuss?
· · · · · ·MR. MCDONALD:· Objection to form.
· · · A· · I don't recall.· I don't remember the
·specifics.
· · · Q· · You don't remember ever what you discussed
·with any of the women with whom you've had these
·discussions prior to your engaging in BDSM activity?
· · · A· · If you're trying to say do I have the same
·discussion with every woman, then the answer is no.
·So, I have -· · · Q· · I'm not -· · · A· · -- general discussions -· · · · · ·MR. GILBERT:· I don't think he was

Page 71

·1·
·2·
·3·
·4·
·5·
·6·
·7·
·8·
·9·
10·
11·
12·
13·
14·
15·
16·
17·
18·
19·
20·
21·
22·
23·
24·
25·

· · · A· · Mid-2000 sometime.
· · · Q· · And who was that?
· · · A· · I -· · · · · ·MR. MCDONALD:· I'm going to object.
· · · Consistent with the judge's ruling on the I
· · · think it was the 29 of August, we're going to
· · · object to any questions that would reveal the
· · · identity of any of the women with whom he had
· · · sexual relations other than the plaintiffs in
· · · this case.· And he's prepared to talk about
· · · events that took place, but he's not going to
· · · give you the names of any women.· That's
· · · consistent with the judge's order.
· · · Q· · Was it Ms. Powers?
· · · A· · No.
· · · Q· · So, you had been engaged in BDSM
·activities prior to Ms. Powers, correct?
· · · A· · That's correct.
· · · Q· · I'm going to ask a couple of questions
·about some of the terms that you use.
· · · · · · · · What do you mean when you say that it
·is a consensual interaction or a consensual
·relationship?
· · · A· · I'm talking about my experiences.
· · · Q· · That's all I'm asking about.

Page 73

 Case 1:17-cv-06404-BMC-SMG Document 245-25 Filed 02/21/19 Page 4 of 12 PageID #:
8797
Page 74

·1·
·2·
·3·
·4·
·5·
·6·
·7·
·8·
·9·
10·
11·
12·
13·
14·
15·
16·
17·
18·
19·
20·
21·
22·
23·
24·
25·

· · · finished with his answer.
· · · A· · I have general discussion about the type
·of BDSM activity we are going to engage in.
· · · Q· · So, when you say general discussions, what
·do you mean?
· · · A· · I talk about what type of toys we're going
·to use, that there will be bondage involved, that
·there might be
·involved.
· · · Q· · Anything else?
· · · A· · I can't remember at the time if I
·discussed other -- or I do discuss other things.
· · · Q· · To be clear, are you always the dominant?
· · · A· · I'm always the dominant.
· · · Q· · Have you ever been a submissive?
· · · A· · I have not.
· · · Q· · When you say bondage, what do you mean by
·that?
· · · A· · Bondage is the use of either bondage rope
·or bondage tape and it could be tying a woman up in
·various positions.
· · · Q· · Give me an example of a position/
· · · A· · Her hands and feet may be tied.
· · · Q· · With rope or tape?
· · · A· · Possibly, yes.

Page 76

·1· · · ·

Page 75

·1· · · ·

Page 77

·1· · · ·

.

 Case 1:17-cv-06404-BMC-SMG Document 245-25 Filed 02/21/19 Page 5 of 12 PageID #:
8798
Page 86

·1· ·

Page 88

·1·
·2·
·3·
·4·
·5·
·6·
·7·
·8·
·9·
10·
11·
12·
13·
14·
15·
16·
17·
18·
19·
20·
21·
22·
23·
24·
25·

· · · A· · I'm really trying to think -- think
·through your question.
· · · · · · · · There were certainly -- let's try
·repeating the question again.· I'm having trouble
·understanding it.
· · · · · ·MR. BALESTRIERE:· Do you mind repeating
· · · it, please?· Thank you.
· · · · · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, the reporter read
· · · · · · · · · · ·back the last question.)
· · · A· · Certainly verbal communication would be
·the number one -- the number one methodology of
·stopping BDSM play.· I think there could be facial
·expressions.· There could be body language.· But by
·far, the number one methodology was verbal.
· · · Q· · What kind of verbal communication could a
·submissive employ outside the use of her safe word
·or the word stop?
· · · A· · I guess the English language.· She could
·say -- just the way anyone would communicate the
·desire to stop.
· · · Q· · And then, you would stop, correct?
· · · A· · I would always stop.
· · · Q· · How often during your play did a
·submissive use a safe word?
· · · A· · Several times, but I -- I don't remember

Page 87

·1· · · ·

Page 89

·1· ·

.

.

 Case 1:17-cv-06404-BMC-SMG Document 245-25 Filed 02/21/19 Page 6 of 12 PageID #:
8799
Page 134

·1· ·

Page 136

·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·(

?

.
Page 135

·1· · · ·

Page 137

·1·
·2·
·3·
·4·
·5·
·6·
·7·
·8·
·9·
10·
11·
12·
13·
14·
15·
16·
17·
18·
19·
20·
21·
22·
23·
24·
25·

· · · · · ·MR. MCDONALD:· Let's go -· · · · · ·MR. BALESTRIERE:· It's his dep, so -· · · · · ·MR. MCDONALD:· -- 15, 10, 15 minutes.
· · · Q· · So, we're talking about payments made to
·Ms.
.
· · · · · · · · When is the first time you made any
·payments to her?
· · · A· · '09, 2010, somewhere in that neighborhood.
· · · Q· · How much did you pay her over time?
· · · A· · I don't know.
· · · Q· · In your mind, what were you paying her
·for?
· · · A· · I was paying her for introducing me to
·women that would potentially have consensual BDSM
·sexual experience relation with me.
· · · Q· · Would you ever have sexual intercourse
·with the women that she introduced you to?
· · · A· · Yes.
· · · Q· · What do you understand me to mean when I
·say sexual intercourse?
· · · A· ·
.
· · · Q· · What about anal sex?
· · · A· ·
.
· · · Q· · So, when I say sexual intercourse to that
·simply means vaginal intercourse; is that correct?

 Case 1:17-cv-06404-BMC-SMG Document 245-25 Filed 02/21/19 Page 7 of 12 PageID #:
8800
Page 146

·1·
·2·
·3·
·4·
·5·
·6·
·7·
·8·
·9·
10·
11·
12·
13·
14·
15·
16·
17·
18·
19·
20·
21·
22·
23·
24·
25·

Page 148

·1· ·
· · · that will refresh his recollection and allow
· · · him to understand the question.
· · · Q· · Who introduced Ms.
to you?
· · · A· ·
.
· · · Q· · Did you ever have -- did you ever pay Ms.
·
for any BDSM play beyond -- withdrawn.
· · · · · · · · Ms.
was introduced by
·
.
· · · · · · · · What about Ms.
?
· · · A· · No.
· · · Q· · Who introduced Ms.
to you?
· · · A· ·
.
· · · Q· · What about
, who introduced
·
to you?
· · · A· ·
.
· · · Q· ·
who introduced her to
·you?
· · · A· ·
.
· · · Q· · Who introduced Ms.
to you?
· · · A· · I said before I can't recall who
·introduced
to me.
· · · Q· · What about Ms.
?
· · · A· · I don't remember how I met
.
· · · Q· · When did you first meet her?
· · · A· · Several years ago.
Page 147

·1· · · ·

.
Page 149

·1· · · · · · ·

 Case 1:17-cv-06404-BMC-SMG Document 245-25 Filed 02/21/19 Page 8 of 12 PageID #:
8801
Page 198

·1·
·2·
·3·
·4·
·5·
·6·
·7·
·8·
·9·

Page 200

·1· · · ·

11·
12·
13·
14·
15·
16·
17·
18·
19·
20·
21·
22·
23·
24·
25·

·Ms. Powers with regards to the payment of her legal
·fees?
· · · A· · .
· · · Q· · Do you have an oral agreement with Ms.
·Powers with regard to the payment of her legal fees?
· · · A· · .
· · · Q· · If there was a judgment entered against
·Ms. Powers, have you agreed to pay for that?
· · · A· ·
.
· · · Q· · That wasn't my question.
· · · · · · · · My question is, if there is a
·judgment entered against her, have you agreed to pay
·for that judgment?
· · · A· · .
· · · Q· · So, when was the first time that you had
·any contact at all with
?
· · · A· · 2009, 2010ish.
· · · Q· · And you may have testified to this
·already, but how did you first learn about Ms.
·
?
· · · A· · Through
.
· · · Q· · Did you go to Ms.
and ask to meet
·with a particular kind of person and she made the
·introduction?

·1·
·2·
·3·
·4·
·5·
·6·
·7·
·8·
·9·
10·
11·
12·
13·
14·
15·
16·
17·
18·
19·
20·
21·
22·
23·
24·
25·

· · · A· · I had communicated to
that the ·1· · · ·
·type of women I was interested in meeting were ones
·that were interested in consensual submissive BDSM
·activity.· So, I had relayed that information in
·some format or another to
.
· · · Q· · And after you did so, she made a
·connection between you and Ms.
, correct?
· · · A· · That's correct.
· · · Q· · And you paid Ms.
some amount of money
·for that, right?
· · · A· · I did.
· · · Q· · You did or did not, sir.
· · · A· · I did.
· · · Q· · You did.
· · · · · · · · Do you remember how much?
· · · A· · I don't.
· · · Q· · Where did you first physically meet Ms.
·
?
· · · A· · I can't remember for sure.· I'm thinking
·it was the
, but
·that's just a distant memory.
· · · Q· · You met with Ms.
for the first time
·prior to having the lease in the apartment; is that
·correct?
· · · A· · That's correct.

Page 199

Page 201

 Case 1:17-cv-06404-BMC-SMG Document 245-25 Filed 02/21/19 Page 9 of 12 PageID #:
8802
Page 202

·1· ·

Page 204

·1·
·2·
·3·
·4·
·5·
·6·
·7·
·8·
·9·
10·
11·
12·
13·
14·
15·
16·
17·
18·
19·
20·
21·
22·
23·
24·
25·

·give to Ms.
prior to her making the
·introduction to you of Ms.
?
· · · · · ·MR. GROVER:· Objection to form.
· · · A· · Nothing different than what I had
·testified to before that I was looking to meet women
·who were willing to engage in consensual BDSM sexual
·activity.
· · · Q· · So, when you testified before you mean in
·reference to Ms.
?
· · · A· · You had asked me some question.· I'm not
·sure who it was in reference to.
· · · Q· · Did you meet -- no, withdrawn.
· · · · · · · · How many times have you physically
·met with Ms.
since that first time you met
·her in 2011?
· · · A· · I -- I'm going to try to estimate because
·I don't know over the last six years, but I believe
·it was six, seven, eight times.
· · · Q· · Did you ever become friends with
·Ms.
or was it always about this BDSM play?
· · · A· · It's two questions.
· · · Q· · Did you ever become friends with
·Ms.
?
· · · A· · Yes.
· · · Q· · Did you consider Ms.
more a friend

Page 203

·1·
·2·
·3·
·4·
·5·
·6·
·7·
·8·
·9·
10·
11·
12·
13·
14·
15·
16·
17·
18·
19·
20·
21·
22·
23·
24·
25·

·1· ·
·you met with Ms.
?
· · · A· · My recollection is maybe at the end of
·2016.
· · · Q· · When you met with Ms.
at some point
·at the end of 2016, did you have any sexual
·intercourse with Ms.
?
· · · A· · I don't recall.
· · · Q· · Did you engage in BDSM when you met with
·Ms.
at the end of 2016?
· · · A· · I don't have a memory one way or the
·other.
· · · Q· · Did you pay Ms.
when you met with
·her at the end of 2016?
· · · A· · I don't have a memory of it one way or the
·other.
· · · Q· · Did you meet with her in the apartment
·when you met with her at the end of 2016?
· · · A· · I assume I would have, but I don't have a
·specific memory of it.
· · · Q· · When did you first meet
?
· · · A· · I believe it was September 2011.
· · · Q· · And you may have testified to this, how
·did you first come into contact with Ms.
?
· · · A· · Through
.
· · · Q· · What direction or specification did you

Page 205

.

 Case 1:17-cv-06404-BMC-SMG Document 245-25 Filed 02/21/19 Page 10 of 12 PageID #:
8803
Page 208

Page 206

·1·
·2·
·3·
·4·
·5·
·6·
·7·
·8·
·9·
10·
11·
12·
13·
14·
15·
16·
17·
18·
19·
20·
21·
22·
23·
24·
25·

· · · Q· · What did she talk about?
· · · A· · That she was addicted to heroin.
· · · Q· · Did you ever get heroin for her?
· · · A· · No.
· · · Q· · How many times did you pay Miss
?
· · · A· · I believe it was six or seven times.
· · · Q· · When was the last time you paid Ms.
·
; do you remember?
· · · A· · In June of 2017 I had met her at the
·apartment.· She had been texting me frequently in
·the few weeks leading up to that telling me she was
·desperate and broke.· I hadn't seen her in person
·for probably a year-and-a-half, and she mentioned to
·me that her father had died, and that she had been
·kicked out of her apartment, and that she was
·desperate for money, and she was very interested in
·meeting up with me to have a consensual BDSM time,
·and she showed up at the apartment.· She was wearing
·sneakers, short shorts, and a tank top.· She had
·sores all over her body and she broke down crying.
·She told me that she -- I asked her what the sores
·were.· She said she was addicted to heroin. I
·talked to her for about maybe 30 minutes, gave her a
·hug.· She left.· She was in the apartment for less
·than an hour.

·1·
·2·
·3·
·4·
·5·
·6·
·7·
·8·
·9·
10·
11·
12·
13·
14·
15·
16·
17·
18·
19·
20·
21·
22·
23·
24·
25·

· · · Q· · Did you give her any money?
· · · A· · After she left, I instructed Jennifer
·Powers to send her $2,000.
· · · Q· · Was that the last time you saw her before
·the deposition in this case?
· · · A· · That's the last time I saw her or
·communicated with her.
· · · Q· · Did you give her anything to eat or drink
·when she was in the apartment?
· · · A· · Perhaps a water.· We did not have any
·alcohol.
· · · Q· · Prior to that time in I think you said the
·summer of 2017, when was the last time you had seen
·Ms.
?
· · · A· · I think it was -- I think I saw her in
·December of 2016.· I had taken her out for food and
·drinks some evening after I had played my regular
·doubles tennis game.· We met on the Upper East Side
·around 10 o'clock at night.
· · · Q· · You said that's December 2016?
· · · A· · I believe that's the date.
· · · Q· · Did you engage in any BDSM play that
·night?
· · · A· · No.
· · · Q· · Did you have sexual intercourse with her?

·1·
·2·
·3·
·4·
·5·
·6·
·7·
·8·
·9·
10·
11·
12·
13·
14·
15·
16·
17·
18·
19·
20·
21·
22·
23·
24·
25·

· · · A· · No, and I didn't pay her any money.
· · · Q· · Prior to December 2016 when was the last
·time before that you remember meeting with Ms.
·
?
· · · A· · I believe it was January of 2016.
· · · Q· · Please tell me about that encounter.
· · · A· · We -- she came to the condo, the
·apartment.· Jennifer Powers was there.· I happened
·to be trying on some new clothing.·
and Jen
·kind of critiqued the outfits I was trying on and
·then I took her out for dinner that night.
· · · Q· · And did you engage in BDSM play that
·night?
· · · A· · No.
· · · Q· · Did you have sexual intercourse with her?
· · · A· · In other words, no sexual BDSM contact at
·all.· It was a date, same as had been in -- same as
·we had in January of 2016.· It's a date.· I took her
·out for dinner.· I didn't give her any money.
· · · Q· · I'm sorry.· I may have gotten confused on
·the dates.· When was it that you were trying on the
·clothes?
· · · A· · I believe it was twice in 2016.· One was
·in January, one was in December.
· · · Q· · And you didn't pay her in December I think

·1·
·2·
·3·
·4·
·5·
·6·
·7·
·8·
·9·
10·
11·
12·
13·
14·

·was your testimony, right?
· · · A· · You know, as I recall.
· · · Q· · Okay, and then what about in January?
· · · A· · As I recall, I did not pay her.
· · · Q· · Prior to that January or so meeting in
·2016, when was the last time before that you saw Ms.
·
?
· · · A· · As I sit here today, I believe it was
·October of 2014.
· · · Q· · So, more than a year previous?
· · · A· · Correct.
· · · Q· · Did you engage in BDSM play that night
·that time?
· · · A· ·
strip club in New York City.
· · · Q· · Had you flown Ms.
to New York for
·that?
· · · A· · I think she was living in New York.
· · · Q· · How did you end up getting connected with
·her that time?
· · · A· · I texted her I believe, or that's what I
·think.
· · · Q· · Where physically were you in the
·
.
· · · A· · In the
.

Page 207

Page 209

16·
17·
18·
19·
20·
21·
22·
23·
24·
25·

 Case 1:17-cv-06404-BMC-SMG Document 245-25 Filed 02/21/19 Page 11 of 12 PageID #:
8804
Page 210

·1· · · ·

Page 212

·1·
·2·
·3·
·4·
·5·
·6·
·7·
·8·
·9·
10·
11·
12·
13·
14·
15·
16·
17·
18·
19·
20·
21·
22·
23·
24·
25·

· · · A· ·
and
·she left.
· · · Q· · Did you pay her after that?
· · · A· · This is just my recollection, I believe I
·gave her $1,000 in cash as she was leaving.
· · · Q· · So, you didn't ask Ms. Powers to make a
·further payment to her; is that correct?
· · · A· · That's correct.
· · · Q· · Did you arrange for her to fly to New York
·for that?
· · · A· · As far as I knew she was already in New
·York.
· · · · · ·MR. BALESTRIERE:· Why don't we just take a
· · · break, bathroom break?
· · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· This will end video
· · · three of the deposition of Howard Rubin.
· · · · · ·We're going off the record at 3:44 p.m. on
· · · October 25, 2018.
· · · · · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, a short recess was
· · · · · · · · · · ·taken.)
· · · · · ·We're back on the record.· The time is
· · · 4:01 p.m. October 25, 2018.
· · · · · ·This will begin video deposition four.
· · · · · ·MR. BALESTRIERE:· Can I ask you to read
· · · the last question and answer back, please?

Page 211

·1·
·2·
·3·
·4·
·5·
·6·
·7·
·8·
·9·
10·
11·
12·
13·
14·
15·
16·
17·
18·
19·
20·
21·
22·
23·
24·
25·

· · · A· · Yes.
· · · Q· · -- with Ms.
?
· · · A· · Yes.
· · · Q· · Okay, prior to June of 2014, when was the
·time before that you saw Ms.
?
· · · A· · September of 2011.
· · · Q· · Did you meet with her -- you may have
·already testified about this that was at the
·apartment?
· · · A· · No, that was at the
·
.
· · · Q· · Did you have the apartment at that time?
· · · A· · We may have signed the lease already, but
·I don't know if I had actually -- the place was
·furnished or ready to use yet.
· · · Q· · This is 2011, correct?
· · · A· · That's correct.
· · · Q· · What was your recollection as to the month
·that this took place at the
?
· · · A· · September.
· · · Q· · Did you engage in sexual intercourse with
·Ms.
that night?
· · · A· · No.
· · · Q· · Did you engage in BDSM play with her that
·night?

Page 213

·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·

 Case 1:17-cv-06404-BMC-SMG Document 245-25 Filed 02/21/19 Page 12 of 12 PageID #:
8805
Page 218

·1· ·

Page 220

·1·
·2·
·3·
·4·
·5·
·6·
·7·
·8·
·9·
10·
11·
12·
13·
14·
15·
16·
17·
18·
19·
20·
21·
22·
23·
24·
25·

· · · Q· · How did you get connected with Ms.
?
·You may have testified to this already.
· · · A· · She was introduced to me by
·
.
· · · Q· · How did Ms.
know her, do you know?
· · · A· · I do not know.
· · · Q· · Ms.
flew to New York then in
·October 2015 to meet with you; is that right?
· · · A· · That's correct.
· · · Q· · Did you pay her after your encounter?
· · · A· · I believe so.
· · · Q· · How much did you pay her do you remember?
· · · A· · Well, again, just to clarify, whenever you
·say how much did I pay her, it was all my money
·being paid through PayPal through Jennifer Powers.
· · · Q· · Understood?
· · · A· · I believe it was $1,000.
· · · Q· · How come so little?
· · · A· · Well, $1,000 is still a lot of money.
·However, she was -- we had begun BDSM sexual
·activity, and we were
, and I noticed
·
, and she admitted that she had
·
, and we stopped, and I
·went home after that.
· · · Q· · Did she spend in the night in the

Page 219

·1· · · ·

Page 221

·1· ·