9112:2019 Re: icsail-related] Protest involvement .- -. -. -. Re: [csail~related] Protest against MIT involvement with Epstein Csail?related on behalf of Thu 201909?12 9in AM csail.mit.edu No one on this thread has accused Giuffre of lying. Rather, the discussion has been of whether Giuffre actually accused Minsky of sexual assault or not. I will not step into that discussion, but will instead ask the following meta question: "if someone in csail says in this discussion group that Minsky was accused of sexual assault, a very serious accusation, and someone else in csail thinks that he was not, should the latter person refrain from saying so in this same discussion group out of concern that the conversation will leak and be misconstrued by the press?" The in stands for "science". Thejob of scientists is to evaluate evidence and seek truth. We have a social responsibility to do that as well. I hope that we scientists will never evade our social responsibility to seek and defend the truth out of fear that the press will misconstrue our search. That would not be a reputation I would like attached to my affiliation. Dr. Stallman If we?re debating the definitions of "rape" and "sexual assault,? perhaps it's better to accept that this conversation isn't productive. When this email chain inevitably finds its way into the press, the seeming insensitivity of some will reflect poorly on the entire community. Regardless of intent, this thread reads as ?grasping at straws to defend our friends" around potential involvement with Epstein, and that isn't a reputation I would like attached to my CSAEL affiliation. On Thu, Sep 12,2019, 1:28 AM Richard Stallman wrote: To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. Giuffre was 17 at the time; this makes it in the Virgin Islands. Does it really? I think it is morally absurd to define "rape" in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17'. I think the existence of a dispute about that supports my point that the term "sexual assault" is slippery, so we ought to use more concrete terms when accusing anyone. 1f3 aria/2019 Re: [osail-reiated] Protest involvement .1 .. 1 . The Verge article includes the deposition snippet, which is not ambiguous at all: Giuffre directly says she was forced to have sex with Minsky. I don?t see any quotation from the depostion in the article, but it says, "Giuffre says she was directed to have sex with Minsky." Given the circumstances, that implies she was coerced by Epstein into doing so. The article know of, and have a copy of, is unsealed Are you talking of some other Verge article? if so, would you like to tell me its Let?s stop grasping at straws to defend our friends, and instead listen to the women who were harmed. We can listen only to what is said to us. All I know she said about Minsky is that Epstein directed her to have sex with Minsky. That does not say whether Minsky knew that she was coerced. it does not report what each said and did during their sexual encounter. We can imagine various scenarios. We know that Giuffre was being coerced into sex -- by Epstein. She was being harmed. But the details do affect whether, and to what extent, Minsky was responsible for that. 3' Looking through the article again carefully, i found a link that reportedly points to the deposition itself. I visited that URL and got a blank window. it is on Google Drive, which demands running nonfree software in order to see it. See Would you (not anyone else!) like to email me a copy of the part that pertains to Minsky? i say "not anyone else" to avoid getting 20 copies. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation Internet Hall?of?Famer Csail?related mailing list Csai ~related mailing list g. ?Ii if! _n tints. . 9?12?2019 Re: [csail-related} Protest involvement Csait~re ated mailing list 9r121201 9 Re: [csait-retated} Protest against MIT involvement .2. .. 1 .. Re: [csai -re ated] Protest against MIT involvemer?with Epstein I Csail?reelatd on behalf of Thu 2039-0942 8:35 AM TozcsaiI-related@csaiimitedu On Thu,12 Sep 2019 01:26:14 -O4OO Richard Stallman wrote: Giuffre was 17 at the time; this makes it Wrape_ in the Virgin Islands. Does it reaily? I think it is morally absurd to define "rape? in a Yes, it does. Differentjurisdictions use different terms in their Jaws but they all fall under the umbrella of statutory rape: sexual activity with a minor. If there was sexual activity and she was under the age of consent then it was rape. That?s the law. (--) \mX CsaiE?related mailing list 1H 911212019 Re: [csaiI-related] Protest against MIT involvement wi.. 3- . .. . . Re: [csail?related] Protest against MIT involvement with Epstein Csail-related on behalf of 624? AM Dr. Stallman - If we're debating the definitions of "rape" and "sexual assault," perhaps it's better to accept that this conversation isn't productive. When this email chain inevitably finds its way into the press, the seeming insensitivity of some will reflect poorly on the entire CSAIL community. Regardless of intent, this thread reads as "grasping at straws to defend our friends" around potential involvement with Epstein, and that isn't a reputation I would like attached to my CSAIL affiliation. On Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 1:28 AM Richard Stalirnan wrote: To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. Giuffre was 17 at the time; this makes it _rape__ in the Virgin Islands. Does it really? I think it is morally absurd to define "rape? in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17. I think the existence of a dispute about that supports my point that the term "sexual assault" is slippery, so we ought to use more concrete terms when accusing anyone. The Verge article includes the deposition snippet, which is not ambiguous at all: Giuffre directly says she was forced to have sex with Minsky. i don?t see any quotation from the depostion in the article, but it says, ?Giuffre says she was directed to have sex with Minsky." Given the circumstances, that implies she was coerced by Epstein into doing so. The article I know of, and have a copy of, is unsealed 911212019 Re: [csail-related} Protestagainst MIT . Are you talking of some other Verge article? If so, would you like to tell me its Let's stop grasping at straws to defend our friends, and instead listen to the women who were harmed. We can listen only to what is said to us. All i know she said about Minsky is that Epstein directed her to have sex with Minsky. That does not say whether Minsky knew that she was coerced. It does not report what each said and did during their sexual encounter. We can imagine various scenarios. We know that Giuffre was being coerced into sex -- by Epstein. She was being harmed. But the details do affect whether, and to what extent, Minsky was responsible for that. Looking through the article again carefully, i found a link that reportedly points to the deposition itself. visited that URL and got a biank window. It is on Google Drive, which demands running nonfree software in order to see it. See Wouid you (not anyone eise!) like to email me a copy of the part that pertains to Minsky? i say "not anyone else" to avoid getting 20 copies. Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation internet Hall?of-Famer Missy/internethalloffameprg) Csaii?related mailing list .mitedu/maiiman/iistinfo/csai l~related Csail?related mailing list 212 Re: [csail?related] Protest against MIT involvement with Epsten Csail?related on behalf of Richard Stallman Thu 2mg-og-1g 1:26 AM ail-reiated To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden?s example. Giuffre was 17 at the time; this makes it Wrapem in the Virgin Isiands. Does it really? I think it is moraily absurd to define "rape" in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17. i think the existence of a dispute about that supports my point that the term "sexuai assault" is slippery, so we ought to use more concrete terms when accusing anyone. The Verge article includes the deposition snippet, which is not ambiguous at all: Giuffre directly says she was forced to have sex with Minsky. I don't see any quotation from the depostion in the article, but it says, "Giuffre says she was directed to have sex with Minsky." Given the circumstances, that impiies she was coerced by Epstein into doing so. The article i know of, and have a copy of, is Are you taiking of some other Verge article? If so, would you like to tell me its Let's stop grasping at straws to defend our friends, and instead listen to the women who were harmed. We can listen only to what is said to us.? All i know she said about Minsky is that Epstein directed her to have sex with Minsky. That does not say whether Minsky knew that she was coerced. it does not report what each said and did during their sexual encounter. We can imagine various scenarios. We know that Giuffre was being coerced into sex -- by Epstein. She was being harmed. But the details do affect whether, and to what extent, Minsky was responsible forthat. Looking through the article again carefuliy, I found a link that reportedly points to the deposition itself. I visited that URL and got a blank window. it is on Google Drive, which demands running nonfree software in order to see it. See Would you (not anyone else!) like to email me a copy of the part that pertains to Minsky? I say "not anyone else" to avoid getting 20 copies. Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation internet Hali-of?Famer (mps?internethalloffameorg) Csaii-reiated mailing list 212 9112322019 Re: {csaif_re!ated} Protest against MIT invoivement wim -. -. -.: -. . 2. .- . .. -. Re: [csaiI?related] Protest against MIT involvement with Epstein Csail~related on behalf of Wed 20194394?! 10:59 AM I On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at +0000, :Let's stop grasping at straws to defend our friends, and instead listen to the women who were harmed. A exactiy that. The iegal presumption of innocence does not mean you presume the accuser is a liar. Csaii~re ated mailing list 111 Re: [csail?related] Protest against MIT involvement with Epstein I Csail~related on behalf of Wed 2019-094 'i 10:43 AM The NYT misused ambiguity, but so did the Verge. i give credence to Giuffrethe deposition she only states that she was *directed* to have sex with Minsky, and that she *did* have sex with various people. She does not explicitly state that Minsky was one of the peopie she had sex with. After asking how she was directed to have sex with Minsky, the lawyer does ask a followup question "where did you go to have sex with Minsky" but having been deposed i know it is easy to answer what you *think* the lawyer is asking instead of what they *actually* asked, and she may have been responding to the part of his followup question about location without realizing that the language had shifted from "directed to have sex" to ?actually did?. ditto. Thank you On Wit/20198121 AM, Giuffre was 17 at the time; this makes it __rape_m in the Virgin 2? islands. The witness (who was not named as someone present by Giuffre) ciaims that the deposition never directly accuses Minsky of participating, based off a convoiuted sentence from the New York Times. The Verge article inciudes the deposition snippet, which is not ambiguous at all: Giuffre directly says she was forced to have sex with Minsky. Let?s stop grasping at straws to defend our friends, and instead listen to the women who were harmed. For the record, a witness denies this, saying that Minsky turned her down: On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 1:03 AM Richard Stallman wrote: To any NSA and agents reading my email: please consider 1.13 9112:2019 Re: {csail~related] Protest against MIT involveme whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden?s exampie. The announcement of the Friday event does an injustice to Marvin Minsky: deceased AI ?pioneer? Marvin Minsky (who is accused of assaulting one of Epstein?s victims - The injustice is in the word "assaulting". The term "sexual assault" is so vague and siippery that it facilitates accusation inflation: taking claims that someone did and leading people to think of it as Y, which is much worse than X. The accusation quoted is a clear example of inflation. The reference reports the claim that Minsky had sex with one of Epstein's harem. (See unseaied Let's presume that was true (I see no reason to disbeiieve it). The word "assaulting" presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, but the article itself says no such thing. Only that they had sex. We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely wilting. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates. I've conciuded from various examples of accusation inflation that it is absolutely wrong to use the term "sexual assault" in an accusation. Whatever conduct you want to criticize, you shouid describe it with a specific term that avoids moral vagueness about the nature of the criticism. Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation internet Ha i~owaamer Csail?related mailing list 2l3 Csail-related mailing list Csail-related mailing list Csail?related mailing list 3x3 9f12f2019 -. . -. . Re: [csail-related] Protest against MlTinvolvement with Epstein Csail~related on behalf of Wed 201909?11 10:38 AM @mit.edu>; ditto. Thank you- On 9/11/2019 8:21 Giuffre was 17 at the time; this makes it _rape_ in the Virgin lsiands. The witness (who was not named as someone present by Giuffre) claims that the deposition never directly accuses Minsky of participating, based off a convoluted sentence from the New York Times. The Verge article includes the deposition snippet, which is not ambiguous at all: Giuffre directly says she was forced to have sex with Minsky. Let?s stop grasping at straws to defend our friends, and instead listen to the women who were harmed. From: Csail?related on behalf of Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2019 1:45 AM To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: [csaii?reiated] Protest against involvement with Epstein For the record, a witness denies this, saying that Minsky turned her down: On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 1:03 AM Richard Staliman wrote: To any NSA and FBI agents reading my emaii: please consider whether defending the US Constitution against enemies, foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. The announcement of the Friday event does an injustice to Marvin Minsky: deceased Al ?pioneer" Marvin Minsky (who is accused of assaulting one of Epstein's victims The injustice is in the word "assaulting". The term "sexuai assault" is so vague and siippery that it facilitates accusation in?ation: taking claims that someone did and leading people to think of it as Y, which is much worse than X. The accusation quoted is a clear example of inflation. The reference reports the claim that Minsky had sex with one of Epstein's harem. (See unsealed ?3 9f12l2019 Re: [csail-related] Protest against MIT involvement in'. .3 3..3. 3. Let?s presume that was true (i see no reason to disbelieve it). The word "assaulting" presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, but the article itself says no such thing. Only that they had sex. . We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely wilting. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates. We concluded from various examples of accusation inflation that it is absolutely wrong to use the term "sexual assault" in an accusation. Whatever conduct you want to criticize, you should describe it with a specific term that avoids moral vagueness about the nature of the criticism. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation internet Hall?of?Famer Csail-related mailing list Csail~related mailing list Csail?related mailing list 213 91132019 Re: [csait-related] Protest against MIT involvement wi.. CsaiI-retated mailing list 313 9112112019 Re: [csail-related] Protest Re: [csail?related] Protest against MIT involvement with Epstein Csail?related on behalf of Wed 2019-09-11 1:45 AM -csaiI-reiated For the record, a witness denies this, saying that Minsky turned her down: On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 1:03 AM Richard Stallman wrote: To any NSA and agents reading my email: please consider whether defending the US Constitution against enemies, foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. . The announcement of the Friday event does an injustice to Marvin Minsky: deceased Al "pioneer? Marvin Minsky (who is accused of assaulting one of Epstein's victims The injustice is in the word "assaulting". The term "sexual assault" is so vague and slippery that it facilitates accusation inflation: taking claims that someone did and leading people to think of it as Y, which is much worse than X. The accusation quoted is a clear example of in?ation. The reference reports the claim that Minsky had sex with one of Epstein?s harem. (See unsealed Let's presume that was true (I see no reason to disbelieve it). The word "assaulting" presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, but the article itself says no such thing. Only that they had sex. We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates. l've concluded from various examples of accusation inflation that it is absolutely wrong to use the term "sexual assault" in an accusation. Whatever conduct you want to criticize, you should describe it with a specific term that avoids moral vagueness about the nature of the criticism. 9!12!2019 Re: [csail?related} Protest against MIT involvement Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation hjps?fsr?org) Internet Hallnoanamer (msz/internethalioffameorg) Csail-related mailing list Csail?related mailing list 2r'2 9!12i'2019 Re: [csait-retated] Protest against MIT involvement - Re: [csai ~related] Protest against MIT involvement with Epstein Csail?relateoi on behalf of Tue 201943940 2:44 PM tncsaii?related i suppose I'll take a turn giving the caveat It makes me reaily happy to see people standing against injustice, but remember to be careful that you don't inadvertently attack your allies at namely the many ~good~ people in the Media Lab and in the administration (many of whom can help bring about the changes that should happen) who were ignorant of the goings-on and not complicit in any way. Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 2:20 PM To: Subject: [csaiI-related] Protest against MET invoivement with Epstein While we're talking about what the ethics of our profession should be (and the ethics of discussing the ethics of our profession on there's an upcoming protest on *Friday outside the Student Center (W20) from 4 PM - 6 about MIT's handling of the Epstein scandal. in particular, given the most recent revelations in the Globe: it appears that Mi? administrative officials aided the anonymization of Epstein?s donations. have also attached a text version for people who are paywwailed. According to the e-mails, in July 2014, after Epstein made a $50,000 gift to MIT, Richard MacMiIian, then a senior director for large individual domestic gifts for the university, aierted the Media Lab to the problems associated with the donation. "Recall we are not taking gifts from him," wrote to Peter Cohen, who was then the Media Lab?s director of development and strategy. Cohen responded that he had spoken to ito and that Epstein had an account that allowed him to make small gifts anonymously. in a July 28, 2014, email exchange, Cohen relayed that Ito had told him that the recording secretary who helped the university track gifts ?maintains this account and knows the drill.? Then, another person, who is not identified in the e-mails obtained by the Globe, explains to several people on the e?mail chain that the recording secretary "should be reminded of Epstein?s anonymous status. There must be 113 9H 212019 some kind of note they can add to his record to assure that all these gifts continue to get recorded as such.? MacMillan then responded: ?No it's all set. She is taking care of it.? The Facebook event is here: For those who don?t want to access Facebook, I have copied the event description below. Hope you can join me on Friday. CW: child abuse, sex-trafficking. Top MIT officials covered up Epstein's donations to the Institute. MIT Professors and officials visited him in prison, flew on his ?Lolita Express," invited him to campus, and gave him awards. MIT CANNOT be trusted to investigate itself through an "independent" law firm that they themselves hire and that reports to the MIT Corporation. WE, students, staff, faculty, and Boston?area community members MUST hold MIT accountable for this and moral! What happens next is on us! Background: Jeffery Epstein was a multimillionaire serial child abuser and sex trafficker who eluded serious justice for many years (his 18?month sentence from 2008, of which he served 13 months, was a slap on the wrist by surrounding himself with powerful men and powerful institutions. He maintained these networks of powerful men by writing them big checks through his ?philanthropic" activities, including philanthropic activities to He cultivated very close relationships with several MIT figures, including Media Lab founder Nicholas Negroponte, former Media Lab director loi lto, deceased AI "pioneer? Marvin Minsky (who is accused of assaulting one of Epstein?s victims and Professor Seth Lloyd, who visited Epstein during his prison term and accepted grants aftenNards, per his own public apology. MET had internally ?disqualified? Epstein as a donor. That meant MIT officially would not take Epstein's money. But Joi lto wanted Epstein's money anyway, and so Media Lab officials and other top officials, such as MlT?s VP of Resource Development Julie Lucas as well as Richard MacMillan (a senior director under Lucas), worked together to cover up Epstein?s donations by anonymizing them. This is what the latest article on the MlT?Epstein scandal reveals. Pe9Jx?story.html?fbclid: 8k5blZc Accepting money linked to Jeffrey Epstein wasn?tjust disgusting and immoral. it violated own donor policies. All senior administrators who knew about these donations MUST IMMEDIATELY. But individual resignations aren?t enough. The Epstein scandal demonstrates 273 91122019 Re: [osaii~related] Protest against MIT involvement . a rot at the heart of the Media Lab and MIT as a whole. it gets at more profound issues regarding how MIT finances its activities and who it partners with to perform research. We demand an end to dark money. We demand an end to the pernicious influence that millionaire pedophiles, genocidal crown princes, billionaire climate change deniers, and giant corporations profiting from wars, deportations, and concentration camps at the border hold over MIT and academia generally. MAKE YOUR 9494920html? fbclid unsea ed?fbclid= FWqug?> fbclidz Csaii~reiated mailing list 3!3