Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 1 of 81 Page ID #:2458 EXHIBIT 19 Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 2 of 81 Page ID #:2459 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 1–4 Page 3 Page 1 ·1· ·2 ·3· ·4· ·5· ·6 · · ·7 · · ·8 · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · INDEX ·1· · · ·2· ·3· ·4· · · ·5· ·6· · · ·7 · · ·8 · · ·9· 10 11 12 13· 14 · · 15 · · 16· · · 17· 18 19 20 21 22 · · 23· · · 24· · · 25 · · · · · · · ·UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT · · · · · · · CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA · · · · · · · · · · ·EASTERN DIVISION · · · · · · CIVIL ACTION NO. 5:17-cv-02514-JGB ·RAUL NOVOA and JAIME CAMPOS FUENTES, ·individually and on behalf of all ·others similarly situated, · · · · · · · · · · ·Plaintiffs, ·vs. ·1· ·2 · · ·3 · · ·4· · · ·5· · · ·6· · · ·7· ·8 ·9· · · 10· · · 11· · · 12· 13 14 · · 15 · · 16· · · 17· · · 18· · · 19· · · 20 21· · · 22· 23 24 25 ·APPEARANCES: ·1· · · · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF DAVID J. VENTURELLA ·APPEARING ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS: ·2· · · · · · · · · · · ·JUNE 13th, 2019 ·THE GEO GROUP, INC., · · · · · · · · · · ·Defendant, ·_____________________________________/ · · · ·VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DAVID J. VENTURELLA · · · · · · · · · ·VOLUME I, PAGES 1-146 · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · THURSDAY, JUNE 13th, 2019 ·515 EAST LAS OLAS BOULEVARD, SUITE 1200 · · · · ·FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA · · · · · 9:03 a.m. - 5:40 p.m. ·STENOGRAPHICALLY REPORTED BY: ·VALERIE LEHTO, REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER ·NOTARY PUBLIC, STATE OF FLORIDA ·ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES ·FORT LAUDERDALE OFFICE ·9· · · 10· 11 12 13· · · 14 15 16 17· 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ·WITNESS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE ·DAVID J. VENTURELLA ·DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FREE· · · · · · · · · · ·5 · · · · · · · · · · INDEX TO EXHIBITS ·EXHIBITS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE ·EXHIBIT 10· ·STANDARD FORM 30· · · · ·EXHIBIT 11· ·STANDARD FORM 30· · · · ·EXHIBIT 12· ·SUPPLEMENTAL AGREEMENT· ·EXHIBIT 13· ·STANDARD FORM 30· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 90 94 97 101 · · ·(PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS REFERENCED RAGSDALE ·EXHIBIT 1) · (ORIGINAL EXHIBITS INCLUDED WITH ORIGINAL TRANSCRIPT) Page 4 Page 2 ·3 · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · BURNS, CHAREST, LLP. BY:· DANIEL H. CHAREST, ESQUIRE. BY:· LYDIA A. WRIGHT, ESQUIRE. 365 CANAL STREET, SUITE 1170 NEW ORLEANS, LOUISIANA· 70130 (504) 799-2845 dcharest@burnscharest.com lwright@burnscharest.com · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · LAW OFFICE OF R. ANDREW FREE. BY:· R. ANDREW FREE, ESQUIRE. BY:· HENRIETTE VINET-MARTIN, ESQUIRE. 2004 8th AVENUE SOUTH NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE 37204 (844) 321-3221 andrew@immigrantvivilrights.com ·4· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· We are now on the video ·5· · · · record. ·6· · · · · · ·Today is Thursday, the 13th day of June, 2019. ·7· · · · The time is 8:50 a.m. ·8· · · · · · ·We're here at 515 East Las Olas Boulevard, ·9· · · · Suite 1200, Fort Lauderdale, Florida for the 10· · · · purpose of taking the videotaped deposition of 11· · · · David Venturella.· The case is Raul Novoa and Jaime 12· · · · Campos Fuentes versus The GEO Group, Inc. 13· · · · · · ·The court reporter is Valerie Lehto and the 14· · · · videographer is Don Savoy, both from Esquire ·APPEARING ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT: 15· · · · Deposition Solutions. · · · · · · · · · 16· · · · · · ·Will counsel please announce their appearances · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · HOLLAND & KNIGHT. BY:· J. MATTHEW DONOHUE, ESQUIRE. BY:· SHANNON L. ARMSTRONG, ESQUIRE. 111 SOUTHWEST FIFTH AVENUE 2300 U.S. BANCORP TOWER PORTLAND, OREGON· 97204 (503) 517-2913 shannon.armstrong@hklaw.com matt.donohue@hklaw.com ·ALSO PRESENT:· FRANCES E. SIMKINS · · · · · · · · U.S. IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT · · · · · · · · DON SAVOY/VIDEOGRAPHER 17· · · · for the record. 18· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· Andrew Free for the Plaintiffs. 19· · · · · · ·MS. WRIGHT:· Lydia Wright for the Plaintiffs. 20· · · · · · ·MR. CHAREST:· Daniel Charest for the 21· · · · Plaintiffs. 22· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Matt Donohue, Holland & Knight 23· · · · of - for the Defendant and also with me is Shannon 24· · · · Armstrong. 25· ·Thereupon, 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 3 of 81 Page ID #:2460 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 5–8 Page 5 ·1· · · · · · · · · · ·DAVID J. VENTURELLA Page 7 ·1· ·you've just told me about were jobs that you held after ·2· ·having been first duly sworn or affirmed, was examined ·2· ·you went back to ICE? ·3· ·and testified as follows: ·3· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·4 ·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay, when did you go back to ICE for the last ·5· · · · · · · · · · · DIRECT EXAMINATION ·5· ·time? ·6· ·BY MR. FREE: ·6· · · · A.· ·I think it was June of 2008. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Good morning, sir.· How are you feeling today? ·7· · · · Q.· ·All right, what did you do before that in the ·8· · · · A.· ·Good. ·8· ·private sector? ·9· · · · Q.· ·Good. ·9· · · · A.· ·In the private sector I was Director of 10· · · · · · ·Where do you work? 10· ·Business Development for L3 Communications and then 11· · · · A.· ·I work for The GEO Group. 11· ·before that I was the Vice-President for Homeland 12· · · · Q.· ·What is your position? 12· ·Security in a company called USIS. 13· · · · A.· ·I'm the Senior Vice-President of Business 13· · · · Q.· ·What does USIS do? 14· ·Development. 14· · · · A.· ·They were primarily a government services 15· · · · Q.· ·When did you begin in that role? 15· ·provider in the area of personnel secured. 16· · · · A.· ·I think in February of 2014. 16· · · · Q.· ·And did you hold any other positions in the 17· · · · Q.· ·Did you work for The GEO Group prior to 17· ·private sector during that sort of interstitial period 18· ·February, 2014? 18· ·between your employment at ICE and going back? 19· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I was the Executive - Executive 19· · · · A.· ·No. 20· ·Vice-President for Business Development starting in July 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so just USIS and L3? 21· ·of 2012. 21· · · · A.· ·Correct. 22· · · · Q.· ·And so your current position is a promotion 22· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and right before you went into the 23· ·from your previous one? 23· ·private sector in the I think -- What was your last 24· · · · A.· ·Correct. 24· ·position at ICE? 25· · · · Q.· ·Where did you work prior to July of 2012? 25· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat that? Page 6 ·1· · · · A.· ·Before that I worked for the U.S. Immigration Page 8 ·1· · · · Q.· ·So right before you went to work for USIS you ·2· ·and Customs Enforcement in Washington D.C. ·2· ·were working for ICE, right? ·3· · · · Q.· ·What did you do there? ·3· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·4· · · · A.· ·My last position was the Assistant Director ·4· · · · Q.· ·What were you doing right before you left at ·5· ·for Field Operations. ·5· ·that time? ·6· · · · Q.· ·When did you leave your employment with ICE? ·6· · · · A.· ·I was the Acting Director for the Enforcement ·7· · · · A.· ·May of 2012. ·7· ·and Removal Operations Program. ·8· · · · Q.· ·Did you have any employment between ICE and ·8· · · · Q.· ·Also in Washington D.C.? ·9· ·GEO? ·9· · · · A.· ·Correct. 10· · · · A.· ·No. 10· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and prior to -- And kind of what were 11· · · · Q.· ·That was your last position at ICE.· What 11· ·the - generally the date ranges when you were the Acting 12· ·position or positions did you hold prior to your last 12· ·Director for - for ERO? 13· ·one? 13· · · · A.· ·It was a short period of time, so I would say 14· · · · A.· ·Prior to that one I served as the Executive 14· ·months, but I - you know, four, five months. 15· ·Director for the Secure Communities Program.· I was the 15· · · · Q.· ·Okay, prior to that? 16· ·Acting Director for Enforcement and Removal Operations, 16· · · · A.· ·Prior to that I held the position of Deputy 17· ·and I believe that's it. 17· ·Director for the same program. 18· · · · Q.· ·If I understand your background correctly -- 18· · · · Q.· ·And the rough periods that you held that 19· ·It's okay.· We're just going to have a conversation. 19· ·position? 20· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Sure. 20· · · · · · ·I'm not going to hold you to like exact dates. 21· · · · Q.· ·So if I understand your background correctly, 21· · · · A.· ·Yeah. 22· ·there was a period where you left ICE and then went back 22· · · · Q.· ·Just years, maybe. 23· ·or left DHS employment and went back; is that right? 23· · · · A.· ·Yeah, it was a few years.· It's a little fuzzy 24· · · · A.· ·That is correct. 24· ·when I actually started. 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and so the two jobs - the jobs that 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay, you've been in the Agency prior to your 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 4 of 81 Page ID #:2461 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 9–12 Page 9 ·1· ·leaving ICE in 2004, you've been in the Agency for ·2· ·eighteen years or something like that, right? ·3· · · · A.· ·I started in 1986 and then through 2002, ·4· ·right. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so '86 to '02? ·6· · · · A.· ·Yeah. ·7· · · · Q.· ·And then you go into the private sector in ·8· ·'02? ·9· · · · A.· ·Again a little fuzzy.· '02 -10· · · · Q.· ·Sure. 11· · · · A.· ·-- maybe '03, but -12· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 13· · · · A.· ·-- it was a four year break in between the 14· ·two -15· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 16· · · · A.· ·-- stints with the government. 17· · · · Q.· ·Did you always work in Washington D.C.? 18· · · · A.· ·No.· I started off in Chicago. 19· · · · Q.· ·All right, what was the highest level position 20· ·that you - that you held when you were working I guess 21· ·then for INS in Chicago? 22· · · · A.· ·Correct. 23· · · · · · ·The highest level -24· · · · Q.· ·Yes, sir. 25· · · · A.· ·-- position would be -- I'm trying to remember Page 10 ·1· ·what the title was back then, but it would have been ·2· ·Deputy District Director. ·3· · · · Q.· ·Was that kind of the equivalent of what we ·4· ·would think of as a Field Office Director today? ·5· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I would say it's equivalent. ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay, did you -- But within INS you were on ·7· ·the enforcement side.· Do you understand what I mean ·8· ·after INS gets broken up in 2002 under the Homeland ·9· ·Security Act -10· · · · A.· ·Right. 11· · · · Q.· ·-- and then to ICE and USCIS? 12· · · · A.· ·Right. 13· · · · Q.· ·You were not doing the benefits part of INS, 14· ·you were on the enforcement side, right? 15· · · · A.· ·That's correct. 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and that was the whole time?· You were 17· ·never like a benefits officer granting green cards or 18· ·adjudicating applications? 19· · · · A.· ·After 2002? 20· · · · Q.· ·At any time in your career -21· · · · A.· ·Oh, well -22· · · · Q.· ·-- in ICE. 23· · · · A.· ·-- sure.· I mean between '86 and 2002 I did 24· ·have - I worked as an immigration inspector as a 25· ·collateral duty, not - you know, part of my primary Page 11 ·1· ·function.· I also worked on the benefits side, ·2· ·naturalization, green card renewals, et cetera. ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so you did some application ·4· ·adjudications? ·5· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· Absolutely. ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay, did you also do enforcement activities? ·7· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay, what is your highest level of education? ·9· · · · A.· ·A Bachelor of Science in Political Science. 10· · · · Q.· ·Okay, have you ever supervised a detention 11· ·center? 12· · · · A.· ·Yes. 13· · · · Q.· ·Which one? 14· · · · A.· ·The Broadview staging facility.· It's in 15· ·Chicago. 16· · · · Q.· ·When did you do that? 17· · · · A.· ·Sometime in the 90's. 18· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, roughly again. 19· · · · A.· ·Right.· Okay. 20· · · · Q.· ·Twenty years ago. 21· · · · · · ·And for how long were you the person in charge 22· ·of that facility? 23· · · · A.· ·I would say at least a couple years. 24· · · · Q.· ·Okay, let's get back to your current 25· ·employment. Page 12 ·1· · · · A.· ·Okay. ·2· · · · Q.· ·What are your current responsibilities? ·3· · · · A.· ·Well, I'm responsible for all of the business ·4· ·development activities for the company which means ·5· ·identifying opportunities that we would be interested ·6· ·in, we would be well suited for, analyzing, qualifying ·7· ·and then making recommendations to our senior leadership ·8· ·whether or not we should pursue such opportunities and ·9· ·then if we do decide to pursue such opportunities then I 10· ·have a team of folks that manage the proposal process, 11· ·scheduling and coordination. 12· · · · Q.· ·Is it correct to say -- I want to make sure 13· ·that we understand each other and we're using the same 14· ·language.· Is it correct to say that the people who work 15· ·with you are in the business development part of GEO as 16· ·opposed to the contract compliance part of GEO? 17· · · · A.· ·Oh, that's correct. 18· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and to whom do you report? 19· · · · A.· ·To the CEO. 20· · · · Q.· ·That's George Zoley? 21· · · · A.· ·That's correct. 22· · · · Q.· ·Okay, approximately how many people work for 23· ·you? 24· · · · A.· ·About eleven. 25· · · · Q.· ·And are they all here in Florida? 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 5 of 81 Page ID #:2462 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 13–16 Page 13 Page 15 ·1· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·1· ·community Corrections services as well. ·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay, how do you go about identifying new ·2· · · · Q.· ·Do you advice or suggest to senior leadership ·3· ·business opportunities that might enhance GEO's revenue? ·3· ·potential acquisitions of other companies or -- Yeah, ·4· · · · A.· ·Well, you can do it a number of different ·4· ·other companies.· Let's start there. ·5· ·ways.· Certainly we have a current portfolio or clients ·5· · · · A.· ·No. ·6· ·that we service now and so certainly in having ·6· · · · Q.· ·You do not? ·7· ·discussions with them asking them if there are ·7· · · · A.· ·I do not. ·8· ·additional opportunities that they foresee in the future ·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay, were you here when GEO acquired BI? ·9· ·is one way.· You know, we attend a lot of conferences, ·9· · · · A.· ·I was not. 10· ·we speak to a lot of people on the ground again figuring 10· · · · Q.· ·Okay, what was your highest GS level before 11· ·out if there are opportunities that are coming. 11· ·you - when you left ICE? 12· ·Sometimes you look at - you look at the news, you read, 12· · · · A.· ·I was in the Senior Executive Service. 13· ·for example, like Miami-Dade is in need of a new 13· · · · Q.· ·Were you on the executive pay scale? 14· ·facility, a county facility so, you know, that - that 14· · · · A.· ·Yes. 15· ·then sparks the - the additional activity to - to make 15· · · · Q.· ·Did you seek or receive ethics advice prior to 16· ·some contacts and reach out to see if it's actually a 16· ·leaving ICE and taking on your employment with GEO -- 17· ·real opportunity. 17· · · · A.· ·Yes. 18· · · · Q.· ·Sure. 18· · · · Q.· ·-- in July? 19· · · · · · ·It is my understanding, and you tell me if I'm 19· · · · · · ·What was that advice? 20· ·incorrect, that you don't just do business development 20· · · · A.· ·What were my limitations, what could I do, 21· ·regarding GEO's ICE detention portfolio but you also do 21· ·could not do.· Basically the one-on-one on leaving the 22· ·business development on other activities that GEO 22· ·government and going into the private sector. 23· ·conducts vis-a-vis Corrections or community supervision 23· · · · Q.· ·And I want you to understand I'm not asking 24· ·or other residential treatment centers; is that right? 24· ·you for an exhaustive list of things you could or 25· · · · A.· ·Correct. 25· ·couldn't do, but did you understand there to be certain Page 14 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so you're not limited to ICE detention? ·2· · · · A.· ·That is correct. ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay, but you are responsible for identifying ·4· ·new opportunities and increasing corporate profits, ·5· ·finding new sources of revenue within the immigration ·6· ·detention space, right? ·7· · · · A.· ·Not limited to the immigration detention ·8· ·space. ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay, but that's one of your -10· · · · A.· ·Sure. 11· · · · Q.· ·-- pieces of work, right? 12· · · · A.· ·Yes. 13· · · · Q.· ·Okay, is there anybody who specifically works 14· ·for you that's tasked with that end of it, the ICE 15· ·detention end of it? 16· · · · A.· ·No. 17· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and prior to getting your promotion and 18· ·taking over your current role, how did your job differ 19· ·from what it is today? 20· · · · A.· ·It was more focused on domestic and very 21· ·specifically to Detention and Corrections, so Federal, 22· ·State and local level. 23· · · · · · ·When I received the promotion then additional 24· ·areas of responsibility were added to include 25· ·international and supporting some of our reentry and Page 16 ·1· ·guardrails vis-a-vis GEO's business with ICE? ·2· · · · A.· ·Correct.· Yes. ·3· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·4· ·BY MR. FREE: ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay, what did you understand those limits to ·6· ·be? ·7· · · · A.· ·I could not have contact with ICE officials ·8· ·for - or I shouldn't say just ICE officials, DHS, any of ·9· ·the component agencies for a twelve month period, I 10· ·could not sign correspondence that went to those 11· ·agencies.· I could certainly advise my company 12· ·behind-the-scenes, but I could not participate in any 13· ·meetings, discussions that they would have with any of 14· ·those components within DHS. 15· · · · Q.· ·It's correct - it's correct to say that those 16· ·ethical guidance pieces that you got from your Agency 17· ·pertained to communications and contacts between your 18· ·new boss and your old boss, right? 19· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 20· ·BY MR. FREE: 21· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, let's - let me - those -- What you've 22· ·just described to me -23· · · · A.· ·Sure. 24· · · · Q.· ·-- pertains to communications and contacts. 25· ·Did I understand you correctly? 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 6 of 81 Page ID #:2463 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 17–20 Page 17 Page 19 ·1· · · · A.· ·It was for me a time for a change.· I had ·2· · · · Q.· ·You directly? ·2· ·achieved my twenty years of covered service which is a ·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Me directly. ·3· ·milestone for law enforcement personnel. ·4· · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry to interrupt you. ·4· · · · Q.· ·You're on a pension? ·5· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· No, it's okay. ·5· · · · A.· ·I'm eligible for a pension.· I don't receive ·6· · · · Q.· ·But that's right?· It's just you individually? ·6· ·one now. ·7· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Do you have to wait it out or is there -·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay, it didn't preclude GEO from talking to ·8· · · · A.· ·I do.· I have to wait. ·9· ·DHS? ·9· · · · Q.· ·How far away? 10· · · · A.· ·That's correct. 10· · · · A.· ·Fifty-seven or sixty-two.· It just depends on 11· · · · Q.· ·All right, and it doesn't preclude you, I 11· ·when I choose to exercise it and how much reduction I 12· ·think, I understand the rules to be, it doesn't preclude 12· ·get from that. 13· ·you from taking the information that you've gained in 13· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Okay, have you ever visited the 14· ·your twenty-two years of experience at ICE and applying 14· ·Adelanto facility? 15· ·some of that information to GEO? 15· · · · A.· ·I have. 16· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 16· · · · Q.· ·And I want to be really clear.· When I'm 17· ·BY MR. FREE: 17· ·referring to the Adelanto facility I'm referring to the 18· · · · Q.· ·You can answer the question. 18· ·immigration detention facility that's operated under a 19· · · · A.· ·Oh, okay.· I wasn't sure of the process there. 19· ·contract currently, I believe, with GEO and ICE and the 20· · · · · · ·Sure, so I could provide advice to - to GEO 20· ·City of Adelanto.· I'm not referring to the prison 21· ·behind the scenes, yes. 21· ·next-door and for the rest of these questions we're just 22· · · · Q.· ·And that was an added benefit to your hire by 22· ·going to talk about the ICE processing center.· Can we 23· ·this company, right? 23· ·agree on that? 24· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 24· · · · A.· ·Yes. 25· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I - that I don't know. 25· · · · Q.· ·Great. ·1· · · · A.· ·With me and -- Yeah. Page 18 Page 20 ·1· ·BY MR. FREE: ·1· · · · · · ·When is the most recent time you visited ·2· · · · Q.· ·You probably had a better understanding of how ·2· ·Adelanto? ·3· ·ICE and DHS work than someone who didn't work there? ·3· · · · A.· ·I think in February of this year. ·4· · · · Q.· ·What brought you there? ·4· ·Would you just generally say -·5· · · · A.· ·I would. ·5· · · · A.· ·We had a series of visits scheduled throughout ·6· · · · Q.· ·-- that that's probably true? ·6· ·the State of California and so we had just stopped by, ·7· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Let me just make an objection. ·7· ·visited, said - said hello to our folks and just toured ·8· · · · · · ·Object to the form, calls for speculation. ·8· ·around that facility as well as the Desert View ·9· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I think my experience and ·9· ·facility. 10· · · · expertise certainly was helpful. 10· · · · Q.· ·Who's we? 11· ·BY MR. FREE: 11· · · · A.· ·Myself, George Zoley, Kyle Schiller who is an 12· · · · Q.· ·You're a very senior official at ICE? 12· ·employee of the Operations Division, I think John 13· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 13· ·Christakis who's our Chief Medical Officer, our Regional 14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I -- 14· ·Vice-President.· There may have been a few other people 15· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Vague. 15· ·that attended as well. 16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I wouldn't say - I wouldn't 16· · · · Q.· ·Is the Regional Vice-President James Black? 17· · · · say -- 17· · · · A.· ·No. 18· ·BY MR. FREE: 18· · · · Q.· ·Who is that? 19· · · · Q.· ·You told me earlier you were a very senior? 19· · · · A.· ·That is Paul Laird, L-a-i-r-d. 20· · · · A.· ·No.· No.· I said I was in the senior executive 20· · · · Q.· ·Thanks. 21· ·service which is just a pay scale. 21· · · · · · ·Is that a regular occurrence or an annual 22· · · · Q.· ·Okay, I got it.· All right.· Okay, cool. 22· ·occurrence where you go and tour these facilities or was 23· · · · · · ·Why did you leave DHS employment? 23· ·there some special reason why you were going there in 24· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry? 24· ·February of this year? 25· · · · Q.· ·Why - what made you want to leave DHS? 25· · · · A.· ·As I stated, we had other meetings scheduled 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 7 of 81 Page ID #:2464 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 21–24 Page 21 Page 23 ·1· ·throughout the state and so since we were in - in the ·1· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· More of a meet and greet. ·2· ·State of California we decided to make that - that trip ·2· ·BY MR. FREE: ·3· ·out there. ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay, nobody sat down in a conference room and ·4· · · · Q.· ·How many times had you been there before going ·4· ·said here are the five things that we need to talk ·5· ·in February? ·5· ·about? ·6· · · · A.· ·I would say at least once annually again ·6· · · · A.· ·No. ·7· ·mostly to - to visit because we've had meetings or ·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right. ·8· ·conferences out there and so it's always good when ·8· · · · A.· ·We did sit in the conference room though, ·9· ·you're in the area to stop by, say hello, see how things ·9· ·okay, so -- 10· ·are going. 10· · · · Q.· ·What did you talk about? 11· · · · Q.· ·If I understand the timeline of your 11· · · · A.· ·Well, again how - how are things going, you 12· ·employment and the existence of Adelanto correctly, you 12· ·know, so there wasn't a particular agenda, but again 13· ·would not have been at DHS when GEO was operating 13· ·more of a meet and greet, okay, let's go look at the 14· ·Adelanto, you would not have visited as a DHS official; 14· ·facility. 15· ·is that right? 15· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any recollection as to how things 16· · · · A.· ·Correct.· I did not visit -- 16· ·were going? 17· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 17· · · · A.· ·At the facility? 18· · · · A.· ·-- that facility. 18· · · · Q.· ·Yes, sir. 19· · · · Q.· ·And so every visit that you've taken has been 19· · · · · · ·When you were sitting in the conference room 20· ·in your employment with GEO? 20· ·talking about it what was the general sense? 21· · · · A.· ·To Adelanto? 21· · · · A.· ·That we were performing well. 22· · · · Q.· ·Yes, sir. 22· · · · Q.· ·Okay, at that time was the facility almost at 23· · · · A.· ·Correct. 23· ·full occupancy or near, near it? 24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Great. 24· · · · A.· ·I don't recall. 25· · · · · · ·How long did you spend there? 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay, that wasn't discussed? Page 22 ·1· · · · A.· ·An hour. ·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay, did you actually go inside the secure ·3· ·area or did you go to the sort of office area over on ·4· ·the west side? ·5· · · · A.· ·We did go inside the secure area. ·6· · · · Q.· ·What did you see? ·7· · · · A.· ·Detainee hold rooms, the medical food service, ·8· ·so I mean usually when we go we - we look at all ·9· ·aspects. 10· · · · Q.· ·Was there somebody responsible for being your 11· ·point of contact, the person who led your tour? 12· · · · A.· ·That would have been the Facility 13· ·Administrator, James Janecka. 14· · · · Q.· ·Okay, did you go anywhere else within the 15· ·facility? 16· · · · A.· ·I think we covered all of the facility. 17· · · · Q.· ·Okay, did Mr. Janecka or anyone else provide 18· ·you any written materials in advance of your visit? 19· · · · A.· ·No. 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay, did you have any substantive discussions 21· ·about GEO's performance at the facility or was it more 22· ·of just a meet and greet? 23· · · · A.· ·More -24· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 25· · · · · · ·Go ahead. Page 24 ·1· · · · A.· ·No. ·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay, any discussions of expansion of the ·3· ·facility? ·4· · · · A.· ·No. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Any discussions of alterations in the contract ·6· ·of the facility? ·7· · · · A.· ·No. ·8· · · · Q.· ·Were ICE officials present on your tour? ·9· · · · A.· ·I mean there's always ICE officials around -10· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 11· · · · A.· ·-- but they were not participating in the 12· ·tour, but certainly if we encountered one we spoke to 13· ·them. 14· · · · Q.· ·Who was that? 15· · · · A.· ·Well, I don't know.· There's a number of 16· ·officers that work there. 17· · · · Q.· ·Nobody that sticks out in your mind? 18· · · · A.· ·No. 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, but they weren't on the tour with you, 20· ·they were just physically located on the site because 21· ·they have offices, if I understand you correctly? 22· · · · A.· ·Right, and they're performing their functions 23· ·and duties. 24· · · · Q.· ·Okay, this was a GEO event, this wasn't GEO 25· ·and ICE doing any sort of meet and greet, if I 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 8 of 81 Page ID #:2465 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 25–28 Page 25 ·1· ·understand your recollection? Page 27 ·1· ·competitors in the bidding process or -- Is that right? ·2· · · · A.· ·That is correct. ·2· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·3· · · · Q.· ·How often have you done visits like that prior ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you have a rough understanding of how ·4· ·to February of 2018? ·4· ·much of GEO's revenues come from ICE each year? ·5· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form, vague. ·5· · · · A.· ·I do not. ·6· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· At the Adelanto facility? ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and do you have any understanding of ·7· ·BY MR. FREE: ·7· ·what portion of ICE's immigration detention needs are ·8· · · · Q.· ·Yes, sir. ·8· ·serviced by GEO each year in terms of beds? ·9· · · · A.· ·Like I said, I think I visited at least once a ·9· · · · A.· ·I do not. 10· ·year. 10· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any idea roughly but current 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Okay, so The GEO Group is a private 11· ·average daily population that ICE is detaining for adult 12· ·publicly traded real estate investment trust; is that 12· ·immigration detention? 13· ·right? 13· · · · A.· ·Other than what I read in the media reports 14· · · · A.· ·Yes. 14· ·which I think is north of fifty thousand. 15· · · · Q.· ·Okay, your main business as an - as a 15· · · · Q.· ·Okay, would you agree that that average daily 16· ·government contractor is to service the needs of your 16· ·population that's been reported publicly is an increase 17· ·government partners; is that right? 17· ·from years past? 18· · · · A.· ·Yes. 18· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and it's my understanding that almost 19· ·BY MR. FREE: 20· ·all of the revenue from GEO's - almost all of GEO's 20· · · · Q.· ·In other words, in this year where ICE is 21· ·revenue comes from government contract partners; is that 21· ·detaining let's say fifty-two thousand it's been 22· ·correct? 22· ·reported? 23· · · · A.· ·That is correct. 23· · · · A.· ·Okay. 24· · · · Q.· ·In fact, governments supply almost exclusively 24· · · · Q.· ·That's more than ICE has detained ever before 25· ·the - the revenues each year that GEO takes in for its 25· ·on a daily basis? Page 26 Page 28 ·1· ·shareholders; is that right? ·1· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· The same objection. ·2· · · · A.· ·That's correct.· We are a government services ·2· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That would be correct. ·3· ·provider. ·3· ·BY MR. FREE: ·4· · · · Q.· ·Right. ·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you expect that number to go up? ·5· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·6· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I do not know. ·7· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form, vague. ·7· ·BY MR. FREE: ·8· ·BY MR. FREE: ·8· · · · Q.· ·As the person responsible for business ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay, let me - let make it real clear.· I want ·9· ·development for GEO do you anticipate that the Agency 10· ·you to understand my question, okay? 10· ·will continue to have a need for adult immigration 11· · · · A.· ·Sure. 11· ·detention into the future? 12· · · · Q.· ·Where does GEO get the majority of its 12· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat that? 13· ·revenues? 13· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· Can you just read it back, please. 14· · · · A.· ·From the Federal Government. 14· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, the requested portion of the 15· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and the largest Federal Government 15· ·record was read back). 16· ·contracting partner by revenue for GEO is ICE; is that 16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 17· ·right? 17· ·BY MR. FREE: 18· · · · A.· ·I think that is correct as of today. 18· · · · Q.· ·Do you think that that need will provide GEO 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, who are GEO's key competitors in the 19· ·opportunities to enhance its revenues if you can get 20· ·immigration detention space for Federal Government 20· ·contracts? 21· ·contracts here in the United States? 21· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form, vague and 22· · · · A.· ·That would be CoreCivic, LaSalle Corrections, 22· · · · calls for speculation. 23· ·MTC and then, you know, thousands of county jails that 23· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I would say it is my opinion 24· ·provide similar services to ICE. 24· · · · that GEO has a very limited inventory of beds at 25· · · · Q.· ·You see those - those jails as potential 25· · · · this point, so I don't know if we can offer anymore ·5· · · · · · ·ICE is GEO's largest customer right now; is ·6· ·that right? 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 9 of 81 Page ID #:2466 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 29–32 Page 29 Page 31 ·1· · · · additional capacity to ICE, so it remains to be ·1· ·there? ·2· · · · seen if - if we would benefit from any increase. ·2· · · · A.· ·No. ·3· ·BY MR. FREE: ·3· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall approximately when that ·4· · · · Q.· ·When you say a limited inventory of beds, what ·4· ·corporate change occurred? ·5· ·I understand that to mean, and tell me if I'm wrong, is ·5· · · · A.· ·I - I'm guessing it might have been around ·6· ·GEO has a certain number of facilities with a certain ·6· ·2014. ·7· ·number of beds available that it could make available to ·7· · · · Q.· ·Did you have any role in shifting the ·8· ·ICE and that number is limited at this moment? ·8· ·corporate structure from what it was before to what it ·9· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·9· ·is now? 10· · · · Q.· ·Okay, how would GEO go about increasing its 10· · · · A.· ·No. 11· ·supply of beds that it could offer to ICE? 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay, that's not something that you were 12· · · · A.· ·We would have to build more, more beds. 12· ·working on? 13· · · · Q.· ·Could you enter into intergovernmental 13· · · · A.· ·Correct. 14· ·services agreements with counties or states instead of 14· · · · Q.· ·Okay, but it does in some way limit the -- 15· ·building?· In other words, take existing space and 15· ·GEO's REIT structure does in some way limit, if I 16· ·manage the facility. 16· ·understand your testimony, the number of beds that GEO 17· · · · A.· ·As a REIT that's not what we would prioritize. 17· ·can offer ICE? 18· · · · Q.· ·Why not? 18· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 19· · · · A.· ·Because there are REIT rules that determine or 19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't think that REIT 20· ·govern how much of your business can be non REIT and 20· · · · structure necessarily limits.· It's basically what 21· ·that would be non REIT, so that would not be our 21· · · · we - our capacity is and -- 22· ·preference. 22· ·BY MR. FREE: 23· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any idea, I'm not going to hold 23· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 24· ·you to an exact number, but do you have any idea how 24· · · · A.· ·-- I think that's what defines our - our 25· ·much of GEO's business is non REIT right now? 25· ·capabilities. Page 30 ·1· · · · A.· ·I do not know. Page 32 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay, yeah.· I take your point.· I think what ·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so you don't - you can't tell me today ·2· ·you're trying to tell me is in order to provide ICE more ·3· ·as you're sitting here how much room GEO has to kind of ·3· ·beds we would have to own and build more facilities and ·4· ·we don't have many more right now? ·4· ·maximize that non REIT income? ·5· · · · A.· ·No, I do not. ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay, is the contract with Adelanto a REIT or ·7· ·non REIT activity? ·8· · · · A.· ·It is a REIT activity. ·9· · · · Q.· ·Why is that? 10· · · · A.· ·Because we own and operate the facility. 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so do you have any understanding 12· ·generally of the benefits of being a REIT to GEO? 13· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· My understanding of the benefit 15· · · · is more tax related and I can't get - I don't know 16· · · · the specifics of that, but I know there's a benefit 17· · · · and then there's certainly a requirement to 18· · · · distribute, I'm not sure if I'm going to get this 19· · · · term right, but your profits back to shareholders. ·5· · · · A.· ·That is correct. ·6· · · · Q.· ·Thank you. ·7· · · · · · ·Okay, do you happen to know as you sit here ·8· ·today how many facilities GEO owns that it contracts ·9· ·with ICE to house adult immigration detainees? 10· · · · A.· ·You said you're not going to hold me to the 11· ·exact number?· I think fourteen. 12· · · · Q.· ·I'd like you to do the best you can. 13· · · · A.· ·I think - I think it's fourteen. 14· · · · Q.· ·But, yeah.· No, we're -15· · · · A.· ·Yeah. 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay, how many in California? 17· · · · A.· ·Two. 18· · · · Q.· ·Okay, which ones are those? 20· ·BY MR. FREE: 19· · · · A.· ·That would be the Adelanto facility and the 20· ·facility known as Mesa Verde. 21· · · · Q.· ·Do you happen to know the percentage that has 21· · · · Q.· ·That's in Bakersfield? 22· ·to go back to the shareholders? 23· · · · A.· ·I don't. 22· · · · A.· ·Correct. 23· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you have any understanding as you sit 24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· That's okay. 24· ·here today as to the main groups of shareholders that 25· · · · · · ·Has GEO always been a REIT since you've worked 25· ·own GEO stock, like who's the biggest? 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 10 of 81 Page ID #:2467 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 33–36 Page 33 ·1· · · · A.· ·I don't know. ·2· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·3· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I do not. ·4· ·BY MR. FREE: ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·6· · · · · · ·If I understand your position correctly, ·7· ·you're - you're in a position of a corporate officer at ·8· ·GEO?· Do you understand what I mean by that? ·9· · · · A.· ·Yes. 10· · · · Q.· ·Do you believe that you have a fiduciary duty 11· ·to the shareholders? 12· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 13· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 14· ·BY MR. FREE: 15· · · · Q.· ·What in your understanding is that fiduciary 16· ·duty? 17· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· The same objection. 18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Well, I believe that, you know, 19· · · · I have a responsibility of making sure that our 20· · · · company in my capacity as a business development 21· · · · executive that we're pursuing opportunities that 22· · · · would benefit our company. 23· ·BY MR. FREE: 24· · · · Q.· ·Is it your understanding as part of your 25· ·fiduciary duty that -- I'm going to ask it in two parts, Page 35 ·1· ·BY MR. FREE: ·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay, I also think that, and tell me if I'm ·3· ·wrong again and these are not - you can correct me is ·4· ·what I want you to understand about -·5· · · · A.· ·Sure. ·6· · · · Q.· ·-- this, okay?· But I also think that you have ·7· ·a fiduciary duty to make sure that your operations in ·8· ·any contract and broadly are compliant with the terms of ·9· ·those contracts so that you can keep getting those 10· ·contracts, right?· In other words, you have an - you 11· ·have a duty to make sure that GEO does what it says it's 12· ·going to do when it contracts with a government partner? 13· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I think in my role and capacity 15· · · · that directing how certain parts of our company 16· · · · perform are just outside the scope of my authority. 17· ·BY MR. FREE: 18· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 19· · · · A.· ·However, if people are seeking my advice or 20· ·opinion I will certainly provide it to them. 21· · · · Q.· ·What would it be on the specific issue of 22· ·whether GEO should as a general matter comply with its 23· ·contracts? 24· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 25· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I believe we have to comply with Page 34 Page 36 ·1· ·but I'm going to tell you the whole thing, okay? I ·1· · · · our contracts, the terms and conditions. ·2· ·think -- Tell me if I'm wrong here.· I think that you at ·2· ·BY MR. FREE: ·3· ·least have fiduciary duties to maximize profits and make ·3· · · · Q.· ·Right.· Okay, are you familiar with the terms ·4· ·sure the shareholders make as much money as possible off ·4· ·and conditions of the Adelanto Detention Center's ·5· ·of their share from your activities.· Is that your ·5· ·contract? ·6· ·understanding as well? ·6· · · · A.· ·No. ·7· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay, have you ever seen the contract? ·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Again I think my responsibility ·8· · · · A.· ·I've seen pieces of it. ·9· · · · is to make sure that the opportunities we pursue ·9· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall which pieces you've seen? 10· · · · benefit our shareholders -- 10· · · · A.· ·The first couple of pages.· Yeah, it's -- I 11· ·BY MR. FREE: 11· ·know it's a very lengthy contract so, no. 12· · · · Q.· ·Financially? 12· · · · Q.· ·How long has it been since you looked at those 13· · · · A.· ·-- and our company, yeah. 13· ·couple of pages? 14· · · · Q.· ·And that means profit, right? 14· · · · A.· ·A few days ago. 15· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 15· · · · Q.· ·Okay, was it in connection with your daily 16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 16· ·activities or in preparation for this deposition? 17· ·BY MR. FREE: 17· · · · · · ·Please don't tell me anything that you talked 18· · · · Q.· ·Okay, what other benefit would a shareholder 18· ·about with your lawyers. 19· ·derive from your activities? 19· · · · A.· ·In preparation for this -- 20· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 21· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· None come to mind right now. 21· · · · A.· ·-- testimony. 22· ·BY MR. FREE: 22· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Okay, but you have a -- As part of 23· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, it's just money, right? 23· ·your role at GEO you have a high level understanding of 24· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· The same objection. 24· ·the different types of immigration detention contracts 25· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 25· ·that exist; is that right? 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 11 of 81 Page ID #:2468 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 37–40 Page 37 Page 39 ·1· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·1· ·words, if a service processing center is federally owned ·2· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell me what those types of contracts ·2· ·and GEO is not the Federal Government and therefore does ·3· ·are. ·3· ·not own any Federal facilities then you couldn't enter ·4· · · · A.· ·Well, there's two types of contracts.· There - ·4· ·into a service processing center agreement? ·5· ·there's what we call a direct contract, and I don't know ·5· · · · A.· ·That's not correct because -- ·6· ·if that's the proper term, which is where an RFP is ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·7· ·issued, the government follows the Federal Acquisition ·7· · · · A.· ·-- the operations, the transportation, the ·8· ·Regulations, we provide a response, they accept it or ·8· ·medical, the food is all outsourced at NSPC, so ·9· ·reject it, if they accept it then we enter into ·9· ·potentially, yes, we could bid on any one of those 10· ·negotiations and then a - a contract is finalized and 10· ·services should the government issue a procurement -- 11· ·executed and then there's a number of activities and 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 12· ·deliverables from that point forward in executing the 12· · · · A.· ·-- in which they have. 13· ·contract. 13· · · · Q.· ·And do you, in fact, provide any of those 14· · · · · · ·The other is an intergovernmental service 14· ·services at SPCs? 15· ·agreement which I think is maybe covered by the FAR as 15· · · · A.· ·We do not. 16· ·well, but that's - those are the only two types of 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay, would those be REIT activities or non 17· ·contracts I'm aware of. 17· ·REIT activities? 18· · · · Q.· ·Within the first bucket, the direct contract, 18· · · · A.· ·Those would be non REIT activities we wouldn't 19· ·it's my understanding that those are contracts that are 19· ·pursue. 20· ·directly between GEO and ICE; is that right? 20· · · · Q.· ·Why? 21· · · · A.· ·That's correct. 21· · · · A.· ·Because we don't own the property. 22· · · · Q.· ·And then the intergovernmental service 22· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so what we're really talking about then 23· ·agreements or IGSAs are contracts between GEO, ICE and 23· ·are contract detention facilities and IGSAs when we're 24· ·some third-party; is that right? 24· ·talking about a detention contract as opposed to 25· · · · A.· ·Correct. 25· ·services contracts? Page 38 Page 40 ·1· · · · Q.· ·And in the case of immigration detention ·1· · · · · · ·Let me clear this up and say it a different ·2· ·that's going to be a state or local government ·2· ·way. ·3· ·typically; is that right? ·4· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·3· · · · · · ·The Adelanto ICE Processing Center is operated ·5· · · · Q.· ·Anybody else who could be the third-party in ·6· ·an IGSA? ·5· ·right? ·7· · · · A.· ·Not - not that I'm aware of. ·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and you can't think of any GEO contracts ·7· · · · Q.· ·It's not a contract detention facility? ·4· ·pursuant to an intergovernmental services agreement, ·6· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·8· · · · A.· ·We consider it a contract detention facility ·9· ·because we own and operate that facility.· The mechanism ·9· ·that don't involve an IGSA - GEO intergovernmental 10· ·services agreements, excuse me, that are not a state or 10· ·by which ICE is able to obtain our services is through 11· ·local government contracting with ICE and GEO? 12· · · · A.· ·Right.· I'm not aware of any. 11· ·the IGSA, but we consider it a contract detention 13· · · · Q.· ·Now within the first category that you have 14· ·described, direct contracts, can you tell me the 13· · · · Q.· ·And by we you mean GEO? 15· ·difference between a service processing center and a 16· ·contract detention facility? 15· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so you do not consider it an 12· ·facility. 14· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· Yes, GEO. 16· ·intergovernmental services agreement or you acknowledge 17· ·that it's an intergovernmental services agreement but 17· · · · A.· ·A service processing center is typically a 18· ·government - a Federal Government owned facility, so I 18· ·you treat it internally as a CDF? 19· ·think they have four or five of those throughout the 20· ·country and a contract detention facility is one that is 19· · · · A.· ·Correct. 21· ·privately owned. 21· · · · A.· ·Treated as a CDF? 22· · · · Q.· ·So the only part, if I understand your 23· ·testimony correctly, the only one of those that GEO 22· · · · Q.· ·Yeah. 24· ·would compete for then is a contract detention facility; 25· ·is that right?· You couldn't -- If a service -- In other 24· · · · Q.· ·Understanding that there is this third-party 20· · · · Q.· ·The second one I said is right? 23· · · · A.· ·Yes. 25· ·Adelanto, right? 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 12 of 81 Page ID #:2469 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 41–44 Page 41 ·1· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.· (Affirmative response).· Yes. ·2· · · · · · ·I'm sorry. ·3· · · · Q.· ·You're doing great. ·4· · · · · · ·Okay, do you have any understanding as to ·5· ·whether Adelanto would be able to continue as an ·6· ·intergovernmental services agreement after the end of ·7· ·this month? ·8· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·9· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Can you repeat the question? 10· ·BY MR. FREE: 11· · · · Q.· ·Sure. 12· · · · · · ·Do you have any understanding as to whether 13· ·the facility at Adelanto will be able to continue as an 14· ·intergovernmental services agreement after the end of 15· ·this month? 16· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· The same objection. 17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So my understanding is that the 18· · · · City of Adelanto provided notice of termination to 19· · · · ICE, so the answer would be no. 20· ·BY MR. FREE: 21· · · · Q.· ·No, you don't have any understanding or -22· · · · A.· ·No.· I'm sorry.· No that it will not continue 23· ·as an IGSA. 24· · · · Q.· ·In other words, if I understand your testimony 25· ·and the structure correctly, it's going to have to be a Page 43 ·1· ·just know that there's a process in place and we're ·2· ·getting close to the end of the IGSA term, so -·3· · · · Q.· ·I think I know what you mean when you say ·4· ·bureaucracy, but I think you're talking about Federal ·5· ·Government bureaucracy as opposed to GEO's bureaucracy? ·6· ·Am I correct? ·7· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·9· · · · A.· ·Correct. 10· · · · Q.· ·It's probably a little easier to get contracts 11· ·done here than in the government I think just generally, 12· ·right? 13· · · · A.· ·Yes. 14· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you know who's responsible within GEO 15· ·for the process that you've described that's underway to 16· ·figure out what the structure's going to be after 17· ·Adelanto pulls out? 18· · · · A.· ·I don't think I quite understand.· I mean I 19· ·we have an individual in a department that administers 20· ·the contract and then you have operations that actually 21· ·service - you know, provide the people and the - and the 22· ·transportation assets, et cetera, so there are different 23· ·components of GEO that will provide those activities and 24· ·services, so depending on what you mean. 25· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, let me clarify. Page 42 Page 44 ·1· ·straight contract detention facility with a contract ·1· · · · A.· ·Okay. ·2· ·directly between GEO and ICE if Adelanto's like ·2· · · · Q.· ·You said earlier there's a process that's ·3· ·withdrawal from the intergovernmental services agreement ·3· ·ongoing? ·4· ·actually happens? ·4· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·5· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay, who to your understanding is in charge ·6· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That would be correct. ·6· ·of that process for GEO? ·7· ·BY MR. FREE: ·7· · · · A.· ·That would be Amber Martin who's our head of ·8· · · · Q.· ·As - as you sit here today do you have any ·8· ·Contract Administration. ·9· ·reason to believe that once Adelanto follows through on ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and she to the extent that there are 10· ·its termination of the intergovernmental services 10· ·negotiations back and forth between GEO and ICE, 11· ·agreement operations will stop at Adelanto? 11· ·Miss Martin is the person who is the point of contact, 12· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat that? 12· ·probably not exclusively, but she's the person who's 13· · · · Q.· ·I'll just say it a different way. 13· ·talking to ICE; is that right? 14· · · · A.· ·Sure. 14· · · · A.· ·That is correct. 15· · · · Q.· ·Once Adelanto's out the facility's not going 15· · · · Q.· ·Okay, anybody else? 16· ·to shut down, is it? 16· · · · A.· ·In her absence whoever she designates under 17· · · · A.· ·I can't say that with absolute a hundred 17· ·her. 18· ·percent certainty. 18· · · · Q.· ·Where does she work physically? 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, why not? 19· · · · A.· ·At the Boca Raton office. 20· · · · A.· ·Because we don't have a contract in place with 20· · · · Q.· ·She's here in Florida? 21· ·the Federal Government, with ICE. 21· · · · A.· ·Yes. 22· · · · Q.· ·What do you see as the impediments from your 22· · · · Q.· ·Okay, is there anybody regionally who would 23· ·perspective to getting that contract, if any? 23· ·serve underneath Miss Martin on - on these negotiations 24· · · · A.· ·Bureaucracy.· I don't know what's going on 24· ·with ICE and GEO for whatever the next phase in the 25· ·because I'm not involved in the - the negotiations. I 25· ·contract at Adelanto is? 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 13 of 81 Page ID #:2470 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 45–48 Page 45 ·1· · · · A.· ·No.· That's all performed out of the Boca ·2· ·office. ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay, have you been apprised of any ·4· ·discussions between Miss Martin and ICE regarding ·5· ·Adelanto? ·6· · · · A.· ·I mean I'm aware that the process is not ·7· ·concluded.· I don't know the specifics and what they've ·8· ·said to each other, but I just know it hasn't concluded. ·9· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any idea what the rough annual 10· ·revenues to GEO are from the current agreement? 11· · · · A.· ·I do not. 12· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you know why the City of Adelanto 13· ·issued its termination notice? 14· · · · A.· ·I do not. 15· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any information as you sit here 16· ·today about the process that the City of Adelanto used 17· ·to issue that termination notice? 18· · · · A.· ·I do not. 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and I think I know the answer to this, 20· ·but I'm just going to ask, you, yourself, have not had 21· ·any discussions with anybody in the City of Adelanto 22· ·about the termination of the contract; is that right? 23· · · · A.· ·That is correct. 24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I'm going to hand you an exhibit that's 25· ·been marked as Exhibit One.· It's the contract. Page 47 ·1· ·adjustment based on the change in the CBA terms and ·2· ·conditions, but I mean I'm not sure when that was, but I ·3· ·know that was certainly an activity that required a ·4· ·modification. ·5· · · · Q.· ·All right, and why do you know about that? ·6· · · · A.· ·It came up in a -·7· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Objection. ·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· -- in a business development ·9· · · · meeting that was presented by our HR executive. 10· ·BY MR. FREE: 11· · · · Q.· ·What do you recall about that meeting? 12· · · · A.· ·Well, just as it reported.· He reported that 13· ·the CBA had been successfully renegotiated and the terms 14· ·and conditions needed to be communicated to ICE. 15· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any understanding as you sit here 16· ·today about who is covered within the collective 17· ·bargaining agreement and employed by GEO? 18· · · · A.· ·I do not. 19· · · · Q.· ·All right, if I told you it's just the guards, 20· ·does that sound about right to you? 21· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 22· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It would make sense. 23· ·BY MR. FREE: 24· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you think that the medical 25· ·professionals would be subject to a collective Page 46 Page 48 ·1· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Yes. ·1· ·bargaining agreement? ·2· ·BY MR. FREE: ·2· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·3· · · · Q.· ·This is the -- I'm going to represent to you ·3· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know. ·4· ·that this is an intergovernmental services agreement ·4· ·BY MR. FREE: ·5· ·entered into May of 2011 between the City of Adelanto ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you remember anything else about that ·6· ·and GEO to perform functions that the City entered into ·6· ·meeting? ·7· ·a contract with ICE to perform.· Now I understand that ·7· · · · A.· ·No. ·8· ·this is not necessarily the end of the discussion ·8· · · · Q.· ·And who's the Human Resources person that told ·9· ·between these contracting parties.· In other words, ·9· ·you about that? 10· ·there may have been modifications to this contract.· Is 10· · · · A.· ·Chris Ryan. 11· ·that your understanding as well? 11· · · · Q.· ·What's his title? 12· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 12· · · · A.· ·Executive Vice-President of Human Resources. 13· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I believe there are 13· · · · Q.· ·And when did that occur roughly, if you can 14· · · · modifications to this, yes. 14· ·recall? 15· ·BY MR. FREE: 15· · · · A.· ·I don't know. 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay, have you been involved in any of those 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay, as a result of the renegotiation of the 17· ·contract modifications, if they happened, to this 17· ·collective bargaining agreement you said GEO had to 18· ·intergovernmental services agreement? 18· ·notify ICE; is that right? 19· · · · A.· ·No. 19· · · · A.· ·Correct. 20· · · · Q.· ·No. 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you know whether the collective 21· · · · · · ·Okay, are you aware of any of the 21· ·bargaining resulted in the members of the union getting 22· ·modifications to this agreement that may have happened? 22· ·paid more or getting more benefits or whether they got 23· · · · A.· ·I'm aware of a collective bargaining agreement 23· ·less benefits, fewer benefits? 24· ·that was renegotiated between GEO and the union that 24· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 25· ·services Adelanto and that there was a request for an 25· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know the nature of the 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 14 of 81 Page ID #:2471 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 49–52 Page 49 ·1· · · · agreement. ·2· ·BY MR. FREE: ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·4· · · · A.· ·No. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Did it increase or decrease GEO's costs? ·6· · · · A.· ·It would have increased. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any understanding about whether ·8· ·GEO sought help from ICE in covering those costs? ·9· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 10· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· We had requested a request for 11· · · · equitable adjustment. 12· ·BY MR. FREE: 13· · · · Q.· ·Did it - did you get it? 14· · · · A.· ·I do not know. 15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right, if you could please turn to 16· ·page - at the bottom.· It's page two, I believe.· At the 17· ·bottom says page 308.· Do you see that? 18· · · · · · ·Okay, do you see in paragraph four facility 19· ·capacity the second to last line it says, "Costs 20· ·reimbursed by the fixed per day per detainee payment 21· ·rate that is paid to GEO"?· Do you see where that is? 22· · · · A.· ·Yes. 23· · · · Q.· ·Okay, is this contract to the best of your 24· ·understanding a fixed cost contract? 25· · · · A.· ·Yes. Page 50 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay, what does that mean? ·2· · · · A.· ·That means all of the services that we ·3· ·proposed to ICE is included in the bed-day per diem, so ·4· ·medical, food, guard services are all included in that. ·5· ·It's not billed separately. ·6· · · · Q.· ·Are there other types of government contracts ·7· ·apart from fixed costs contracts? ·8· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·9· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I - I don't understand. 10· ·BY MR. FREE: 11· · · · Q.· ·Do you know what a cost plus contract is? 12· · · · A.· ·I know what it is, yes. 13· · · · Q.· ·Okay, what's your understanding of what a cost 14· ·plus contract is? 15· · · · A.· ·A bed you can bill the client for the costs of 16· ·the services plus a profit or margin. 17· · · · Q.· ·Is GEO's -- But you understand that that's not 18· ·what this contract is.· This is a fixed cost contract, 19· ·right? 20· · · · A.· ·I would agree. 21· · · · Q.· ·Okay, if I understand correctly, and help me 22· ·because this is, I think, part of your job, the way that 23· ·you arrive at your proposal about the fixed costs that 24· ·you're going to get is by calculating a per diem rate 25· ·and proposing it to the government counter party; is Page 51 ·1· ·that right? ·2· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·3· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes, we calculate a per diem ·4· · · · rate. ·5· ·BY MR. FREE: ·6· · · · Q.· ·So that the cost, the measure of the cost that ·7· ·you're presenting to the government that they're then ·8· ·going to pay you at a flat rate, I think, is the per ·9· ·diem?· Do I have that basically right? 10· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 11· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That would -- Yes, that would -12· ·BY MR. FREE: 13· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 14· · · · A.· ·-- be my understanding. 15· · · · Q.· ·Okay, tell me what's encapsulated in the per 16· ·diem rate with a bed-day rate.· Can we use those things 17· ·interchangeably? 18· · · · A.· ·Yes. 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so what's encapsulated in the per diem? 20· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 21· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So that would include personnel 22· · · · costs, food costs, uniform costs, utilities. I 23· · · · mean it's a pretty exhaustive list of categories 24· · · · that are required to run the facility and provide 25· · · · the services that we propose to include, you know, Page 52 ·1· · · · equipment, copiers, desks, et cetera. ·2· ·BY MR. FREE: ·3· · · · Q.· ·When you say that we propose your - I think ·4· ·you mean that GEO proposes to ICE; is that right? ·5· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you have a government website that ·7· ·you can look at and see a - a rate that the Federal ·8· ·Government sets for how much you should buy a desk for ·9· ·or some of the other things that you've listed or do 10· ·you, GEO, go ahead and figure out what's the best, you 11· ·know, cost we can get for a desk? 12· · · · A.· ·We figure that out. 13· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so that's not set?· Your costs in terms 14· ·of acquisition of what you need to do the contract 15· ·that's not set by the Federal Government, that's 16· ·something you as the contractor figure out and then 17· ·present to the Federal Government? 18· · · · A.· ·Correct. 19· · · · Q.· ·Is that right? 20· · · · A.· ·Correct. 21· · · · Q.· ·Is it fair to say that part of your 22· ·competitive advantage as a government contractor would 23· ·be in figuring out the way to get the lowest cost on 24· ·certain items so that you can have the best bed-day 25· ·rate? 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 15 of 81 Page ID #:2472 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 53–56 Page 53 Page 55 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·2· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yeah, I would agree that we try ·2· · · · A.· ·-- our field office. ·3· · · · to provide the - the lowest cost that would be ·3· · · · Q.· ·Do you know whether the government website is ·4· · · · sufficient to provide the services or equipment ·4· ·public and publicly accessible, or is it just available ·5· · · · that we propose to provide to the government. ·5· ·to existing contractors? ·6· ·BY MR. FREE: ·6· · · · A.· ·It's public. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you have any understanding as to ·7· · · · Q.· ·So any competitor can look at it? ·8· ·whether this contract was competitively bid? ·8· · · · A.· ·Anyone. ·9· · · · A.· ·This was before my time -·9· · · · Q.· ·Anyone? 10· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 10· · · · A.· ·Yeah. 11· · · · A.· ·-- so I don't know. 11· · · · Q.· ·If you knew where to look? 12· · · · Q.· ·Do you know since this contract was entered 12· · · · A.· ·Yeah. 13· ·into in 2011 whether ICE has announced or, in fact, 13· · · · Q.· ·Yeah. 14· ·re-competed this contract and solicited other bids to do 14· · · · · · ·Okay, is GEO actively preparing a response to 15· ·the same thing? 15· ·the request for information? 16· · · · A.· ·There was -16· · · · A.· ·We prepared our response to the request for 17· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 17· ·information -18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· There was recently a request for 18· · · · Q.· ·And -19· · · · information issued by ICE a few months ago about 19· · · · A.· ·-- and it was submitted. 20· · · · bed space in that part of the - the state.· I think 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay, when? 21· · · · it's for the entire state, so potentially this 21· · · · A.· ·In May. 22· · · · facility could be part of a - a new procurement. 22· · · · Q.· ·All right, roughly what was the content of the 23· ·BY MR. FREE: 23· ·response? 24· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall when that request for 24· · · · A.· ·That we had a facility available in the City 25· ·information went out approximately from ICE? 25· ·of Adelanto, that we had a facility available in ·1· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. Page 54 ·1· · · · A.· ·A couple months ago. ·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so this year? ·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.· This year. ·4· · · · Q.· ·What else do you remember about it? ·5· · · · A.· ·Again they were seeking information, location, ·6· ·capacity.· I think those were the two primary ·7· ·requisites, of capacity and location. ·8· · · · Q.· ·How did you find out about it? ·9· · · · A.· ·It was issued through the government website. 10· · · · Q.· ·How did you find out it was on the government 11· ·website? 12· · · · A.· ·We have alert notices that let us know when a 13· ·particular agency issues that type of activity. 14· · · · Q.· ·Okay, I think you originally said for that 15· ·part of the state and then you may have said also that 16· ·it could be the whole state. 17· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I think it's for the entire state, but 18· ·I'm not entirely sure. 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you know as you sit here today 20· ·whether it was for the Los Angeles field office or a 21· ·different field office or whether it was simply the 22· ·State of California? 23· · · · A.· ·I don't recall -24· · · · Q.· ·Yeah. 25· · · · A.· ·-- if it was -- Page 56 ·1· ·Bakersfield and that was it, yeah.· I mean those are the ·2· ·only two facilities we have that could meet those ·3· ·requirements. ·4· · · · Q.· ·What else did you tell the government about ·5· ·that? ·6· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Just the size, the location, ·8· · · · when it would be available. ·9· ·BY MR. FREE: 10· · · · Q.· ·And I believe the facilities that you would be 11· ·referring to are basically out of a - in the Adelanto 12· ·Processing Center, both of which are in existence; is 13· ·that right? 14· · · · A.· ·That is correct. 15· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so you don't have another facility in 16· ·Adelanto? 17· · · · A.· ·No. 18· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 19· · · · A.· ·No. 20· · · · Q.· ·All right, do you recall roughly the numbers 21· ·of beds that ICE is looking to fill? 22· · · · A.· ·I do not. 23· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any idea as to whether ICE has 24· ·responded to your request for information? 25· · · · A.· ·They have not. 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 16 of 81 Page ID #:2473 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 57–60 Page 57 ·1· · · · Q.· ·What's the next step for ICE to take after ·2· ·they've gotten your response? ·3· · · · A.· ·I would anticipate a request for proposal to ·4· ·be issued. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Do you know approximately how long that takes ·6· ·for ICE to do? ·7· · · · A.· ·Historically very long, so I - but I don't ·8· ·know. ·9· · · · Q.· ·What's very long in this time space?· Is it 10· ·three months?· Is it a year? 11· · · · A.· ·It could be years. 12· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 13· · · · A.· ·It could be years. 14· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any understanding as to whether 15· ·the Adelanto - The City of Adelanto's notice of 16· ·termination was a reason stated by ICE for submitting 17· ·the request for information? 18· · · · A.· ·No, I do not know. 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you know whether they're related at 20· ·all? 21· · · · A.· ·I do not know. 22· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you know of any competitors in the 23· ·State of California who could meet the needs of ICE 24· ·potentially responsive to this request for information? 25· · · · A.· ·Yes. Page 59 ·1· · · · · · ·The current contracts or future contracts? ·2· ·BY MR. FREE: ·3· · · · Q.· ·Let me ask a better question. ·4· · · · A.· ·Okay. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Does the State of California impose any ·6· ·limitations on private contracting with immigration ·7· ·detention to your understanding? ·8· · · · A.· ·Between the Federal Government and a private ·9· ·provider, not to my knowledge. 10· · · · Q.· ·Okay, does the State of California impose any 11· ·limitations on its own state and local governments in 12· ·permitting sites, in other words, issuing permits to 13· ·sites that will serve as Federal detention, private 14· ·immigration detention sites -15· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Objection. 16· ·BY MR. FREE: 17· · · · Q.· ·-- as far as you understand? 18· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Sorry. 19· · · · · · ·Object to the form. 20· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· My understanding that there is a 21· · · · process in place for any activity related to the 22· · · · siting of a - a detention facility for the purposes 23· · · · to hold immigration detainees.· I don't know if it 24· · · · prevents them, but I know there's a process. 25· ·BY MR. FREE: Page 58 Page 60 ·1· · · · Q.· ·What else do you know about that? ·2· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. ·2· · · · A.· ·I think that's probably the key component of ·3· ·BY MR. FREE: ·3· ·it, but -·4· · · · Q.· ·Who? ·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay, can you tell me what the process is or ·5· · · · A.· ·CoreCivic. ·5· ·what you understand about the process? ·6· · · · Q.· ·How? ·6· · · · A.· ·I think there's - there's a requirement to ·7· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· The same objection. ·7· ·have two public hearings within a hundred and eighty ·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· They have a facility in ·8· ·days before a decision is rendered. ·9· · · · California City that is currently leased to the ·9· · · · Q.· ·A requirement for whom?· Who has to hold the 10· · · · State of California, but potentially they could 10· ·hearings? 11· · · · offer that to ICE. 11· · · · A.· ·The - the government entity.· I would assume 12· ·BY MR. FREE: 12· ·it was the Planning Commission or the -- Whoever's 13· · · · Q.· ·Where is California City just geographically? 13· ·responsible for permitting and granting those kind of 14· ·Is it in Southern California or Northern California? 14· ·zoning variances, et cetera. 15· · · · A.· ·I think it's central. 15· · · · Q.· ·Do you know whether new contracts between 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and it's currently leased to the State? 16· ·private immigration detention contractors and state and 17· · · · A.· ·That's my understanding, yes. 17· ·local governments are California - in California would 18· · · · Q.· ·Do you know how many beds? 18· ·be permissible under California law currently? 19· · · · A.· ·Over two thousand. 19· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you have any understanding as to any 20· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Can you repeat that? 21· ·limitations in the State of California that could affect 21· ·BY MR. FREE: 22· ·these contracts? 22· · · · Q.· ·Let me ask a better question. 23· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 23· · · · A.· ·Okay. 24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yeah, I'm not sure how to answer 24· · · · Q.· ·Do you know whether cities and counties could 25· · · · that. 25· ·respond to this request for information under current ·1· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 17 of 81 Page ID #:2474 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 61–64 Page 61 ·1· ·California law? Page 63 ·1· ·whether it could essentially if you - if GEO does not ·2· · · · A.· ·I don't know. ·2· ·get the contract whether ICE could fill its current ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you have any understanding as to ·3· ·capacity by using this request for information? ·4· ·whether California law permits to your knowledge and ·4· · · · · · ·Do you understand my question? ·5· ·understanding a city or a county or a jail to enter into ·5· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Well, I don't, so I -- ·6· ·a new detention contract for ICE detention? ·6· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· Okay, let me -- ·7· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·7· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· -- object to the form. ·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Enter into a new contract with ·8· ·BY MR. FREE: ·9· · · · whom? ·9· · · · Q.· ·Let's try it again. 10· ·BY MR. FREE: 10· · · · · · ·So you don't know how many beds the RFI has, 11· · · · Q.· ·With you.· With GEO. 11· ·right? 12· · · · A.· ·I don't know. 12· · · · A.· ·I don't recall the specific number. 13· · · · Q.· ·Okay, are you aware of anybody else who 13· · · · Q.· ·Do you know if it's a hundred or a thousand? 14· ·submitted a request for information response? 14· ·Any sort of order of magnitude? 15· · · · A.· ·I -- No, I'm not. 15· · · · A.· ·I think it's over a couple thousand. 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay, are you aware of any other competitor 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay, how many beds are at Adelanto right now? 17· ·who could meet the needs laid out in the request for 17· · · · A.· ·The capacity is one thousand nine hundred and 18· ·information by ICE apart from CoreCivic? 18· ·forty. 19· · · · A.· ·I do not. 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you know as you sit here today 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay, have you or anybody who works for you as 20· ·whether the RFI asks for more or less than 21· ·far as you know had any direct conversations with ICE 21· ·nineteen-forty? 22· ·about the request for information? 22· · · · A.· ·It would be more than nineteen-forty. 23· · · · A.· ·No. 23· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you know how much more? 24· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Okay, can we take a break? 24· · · · A.· ·I do not. 25· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· What time is it? 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so help me understand.· You've submitted Page 62 ·1· · · · · · ·Yeah.· Sure. Page 64 ·1· ·a response to this request for information and you've ·2· · · · · · ·9:52. ·2· ·said we have two facilities, we have Mesa Verde and we ·3· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· We are going off the video ·3· ·have Adelanto, right? ·4· · · · record 9:52 a.m. ·4· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·5· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, there was a brief recess observed) ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and those are the two facilities that we ·6· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· We are back on the record ·6· ·propose to use to meet the Agency's needs? ·7· · · · 10:08 a.m. ·8· ·BY MR. FREE: ·9· · · · Q.· ·Mr. Venturella, before our break we were 10· ·talking about this request for information from ICE for 11· ·immigration detention beds in California that GEO 12· ·responded to in May.· I want to pick up with that 13· ·discussion if I can, okay? 14· · · · · · ·Was that for adult immigration detention? 15· · · · A.· ·Yes. 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay, it does not include any family detention 17· ·centers to your knowledge? 18· · · · A.· ·It does not. 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, is - as you sit here today do you recall ·7· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· GEO proposed those two ·9· · · · facilities. 10· ·BY MR. FREE: 11· · · · Q.· ·In response to the RFI? 12· · · · A.· ·In response to the RFI. 13· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so approximately three hundred beds at 14· ·Mesa Verde?· Do you know? 15· · · · A.· ·Four. 16· · · · Q.· ·Four hundred. 17· · · · · · ·Okay, so you're talking a total of 18· ·twenty-three hundred and forty beds, right? 20· ·approximately the number of beds ICE is looking to fill 19· · · · A.· ·Correct. 20· · · · Q.· ·In two different places? 21· ·with this contract? 21· · · · A.· ·Correct. 22· · · · A.· ·I do not. 22· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you know whether ICE asked for more 23· ·than twenty-three forty in its RFI? 23· · · · Q.· ·Do you know whether this request for 24· ·information represents an increase in the total capacity 25· ·that ICE would have to detain people in California or 24· · · · A.· ·I don't recall the exact number. 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay, as part of your preparation of the 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 18 of 81 Page ID #:2475 Page 65 Page 67 ·1· ·response to the RFI did you conduct a business analysis ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you have any idea what the - whether ·2· ·of how you would pay for the services that you're ·2· ·GEO has already thought through what the per diem would ·3· ·offering to the government? ·3· ·look like? ·4· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·4· · · · A.· ·We have not. ·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't understand the question. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and so I guess what I hear you saying, ·6· ·BY MR. FREE: ·6· ·and I really appreciate this answer is, you may have to ·7· · · · Q.· ·Do you know approximately -- Let me ask it a ·7· ·take a lower per diem in order to get the contract -- ·8· ·different way. ·8· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object. ·9· · · · · · ·Do you think it would increase or decrease ·9· ·BY MR. FREE: 10· ·GEO's revenues to get awarded whatever contract comes at 10· · · · Q.· ·-- in order to be competitive?· Is that what 11· ·the end of this RFI, RFP process? 11· ·you're implying here? 12· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 12· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 13· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That would be hard to determine 13· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· We would have to do an analysis 14· · · · or to answer without knowing what the requirements 14· · · · and understand what the competition, the 15· · · · would be of the - of the final RFP. 15· · · · competitive landscape is and make a determination 16· ·BY MR. FREE: 16· · · · at some point what the per diem should be. 17· · · · Q.· ·Okay, I'm not fully versed in all of your 17· ·BY MR. FREE: 18· ·operations and so just help me understand, okay? 18· · · · Q.· ·At this point I think the only competitor that 19· ·Because this is not a gotcha or a trick.· None of these 19· ·you've told me about is CoreCivic.· Are there any 20· ·are.· I'm just trying to understand. 20· ·others? 21· · · · · · ·I don't understand why a company would bid for 21· · · · A.· ·That's the only one I'm aware of at this 22· ·a contract if they were going to make less on that 22· ·point. 23· ·contract than what they're making now.· In other words, 23· · · · Q.· 24· ·if my revenues as a company were going to go down by 24· · 25· ·entering into this new agreement unless I was going to 25· · Page 66 Page 68 ·1· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· ·2· ·wouldn't bid that agreement.· Do you see what I'm ·2· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· ·3· ·saying?· So my assumption would be that if GEO submitted ·3· · · · ·4· ·a response to the RFI, it thought it - it probably ·4· · · · ·5· ·thinks it's going to make more money if it gets the ·5· · · · ·6· ·contract? ·6· · · · ·7· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·7· · · · ·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I think that's an incorrect ·8· · · · ·9· · · · assumption. ·9· · · · 10· ·BY MR. FREE: 10· · · · 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 11· · · · 12· · · · A.· ·In a competitive procurement to be competitive 12· ·BY MR. FREE: 13· ·you might have to lower your per diem and therefore 13· · · · Q.· ·So there's one competitor, if I understand 14· ·lower your revenues and profit to win. 14· ·your testimony, and that's CoreCivic; is that right? 15· · · · Q.· ·Okay, any other reasons that assumption would 15· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 16· ·be incorrect? 16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I only know of one competitor. 17· · · · A.· ·No. 17· · · · There could be more. 18· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 18· ·BY MR. FREE: 19· · · · · · ·Sorry. 19· · · · Q.· ·Who else could that be? 20· ·BY MR. FREE: 20· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 21· · · · Q.· ·So you say in a competitive -- Would you call 21· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It could be Management and 22· ·this a bid structure at this point?· Would you call this 22· · · · Training Corporation, it could be LaSalle 23· ·like you and CoreCivic, GEO and CoreCivic bidding for 23· · · · Corrections, and again I don't know if counties or 24· ·this contract at this point or are we not there yet? 24· · · · other law enforcement, local law enforcement or 25· · · · A.· ·We are not there yet. 25· · · · state - law enforcement could participate in - in ·1· ·eliminate the existing revenue altogether I probably Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 19 of 81 Page ID #:2476 Page 69 ·1· · · · that procurement.· I just don't know. ·2· ·BY MR. FREE: ·3· · · · Q.· ·You don't know whether California or some ·4· ·local governments could participate in its procurement? ·5· · · · A.· ·I don't. ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so that's the competitor. ·7· · · · · · ·The location I think you told me was ·8· ·California City?· That's the one that you know about, ·9· ·this two thousand bed facility that's currently leased 10· ·to the State of California? 11· · · · A.· ·Correct. 12· · · · Q.· ·The utility rates would be I think the same 13· ·for both companies.· Is there any reason that they 14· ·wouldn't? 15· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know what the utility 17· · · · rates would be in California City, so I - I don't 18· · · · know. 19· ·BY MR. FREE: 20· · · · Q.· ·Oh, okay.· So you're saying the utility rates 21· ·could be lower there than in Adelanto? 22· · · · A.· ·Yes. 23· · · · Q.· ·But those - both of those things would be 24· ·knowable to each company, right? 25· · · · A.· ·Yes. Page 70 ·1· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·2· ·BY MR. FREE: ·3· · · · Q.· ·You can't do like a private PG&E contract for ·4· ·your power bill, or do you know?· I don't know. ·5· · · · A.· ·Not that I'm aware of. ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and the utilities, they're the rate, ·7· ·right? ·8· · · · A.· ·Right. ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay, the same thing with taxes; is that 10· ·right? 11· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 12· ·BY MR. FREE: 13· · · · Q.· ·These things are known and knowable and 14· ·they're equal to both competitors? 15· · · · A.· ·Correct. 16· · · · Q.· ·California's not going to give you a better, 17· ·you know, land - land tax rate? 18· · · · · · ·You know what?· Forget it. 19· · · · · · ·Did you say labor costs already? 20· · · · A.· ·I did. 21· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so what would you think about when 22· ·you're talking about labor costs? 23· · · · A.· ·What the hourly rate would be with the - for 24· ·the various positions to support a detention facility. 25· · · · Q.· Page 71 ·1· · ·2· · · · A.· · ·3· · ·4· · ·5· ·6· ·7· · ·8· · ·9· 10· · 11· . 12· · · · Q.· ·What else? 13· · · · A.· ·About? 14· · · · Q.· ·Labor costs. 15· · · · A.· ·I think that's - I think that's it. 16· · · · Q.· ·The prevailing wage rates that the Federal 17· ·Government sets shouldn't change based on the 18· ·contractor, should they? 19· · · · A.· ·They change based on location. 20· · · · Q.· ·Right.· Okay, but the company -- All things 21· ·being equal, if they're doing the same task like the 22· ·same labor like job determination, let's call it a cook, 23· ·you know, one, so you're saying -- Let me back up. 24· · · · · · ·You're saying they could be different?· The 25· ·Federal Government's prevailing wage rate could be Page 72 ·1· ·different in California City than Adelanto? ·2· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you know whether they are? ·4· · · · A.· ·I do not. ·5· · · · Q.· ·All right, and is the same true about the ·6· ·State's determinations if any have been made? ·7· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·8· ·BY MR. FREE: ·9· · · · Q.· ·That they could be different from -10· ·California could have a different prevailing rate in 11· ·Adelanto than it does in -12· · · · A.· ·I haven't done the analysis, so I don't know. 13· · · · Q.· · 14· · 15· 16· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· 17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· 18· · · · 19· · · · 20· · · · 21· · · · 22· · · · 23· · · · 24· · · · 25· · · · . Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 20 of 81 Page ID #:2477 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 73–76 Page 73 ·1· ·BY MR. FREE: ·2· · · · Q.· ·I presume you know your costs at Adelanto, ·3· ·right? ·4· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know all of the costs at ·6· · · · Adelanto, but somebody in the company does. ·7· ·BY MR. FREE: ·8· · · · Q.· ·GEO - GEO knows what the - the facility ·9· ·structure is, what the bond allegations are?· GEO has 10· ·that information at its disposable, right?· At its 11· ·disposal, right? 12· · · · A.· ·Correct. 13· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and so the thing that you're trying to 14· ·figure out if you're competing in this contract is what 15· ·are those factors that you described for California City 16· ·in that facility, right? 17· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· California City or any -19· ·BY MR. FREE: 20· · · · Q.· ·Or any other competitor. 21· · · · A.· ·Yes. 22· · · · Q.· ·Okay, but we've only identified one, right? 23· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form, 24· · · · mischaracterizes -25· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· As of -- Page 75 ·1· ·Government?· Did I understand that testimony correctly? ·2· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and I understand those not exhaustively, ·4· ·but I - you've talked about labor, right? ·5· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay, you talked about I'm going to call it ·7· ·facility overhead.· I know that that's probably not what ·8· ·you would use.· If there's another term that you would ·9· ·use let me know, but when I'm talking about facility 10· ·overhead I'm talking like the debt obligations of owning 11· ·it or having a bond on it.· That's what I understand 12· ·you're talking about when you're saying -13· · · · A.· ·Yes. 14· · · · Q.· ·Yeah. 15· · · · · · ·Okay, and then we've got taxes and we've got 16· ·like property taxes; is that right? 17· · · · A.· ·Correct.· Yeah. 18· · · · Q.· ·And utilities? 19· · · · A.· ·Correct.· Right. 20· · · · Q.· ·What else do you take into consideration when 21· ·you're building your model to make the most competitive 22· ·bid to the Federal Government on behalf of your 23· ·shareholders? 24· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 25· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Again it's not my area of Page 74 Page 76 ·1· · · · expertise on what all of the categories are, but I ·2· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· As of now that's the only one I ·2· · · · can say a lot of it is also going to be driven by ·3· · · · know, but we haven't initiated our analysis yet. ·3· · · · the requirements of the RFP and right now those ·4· ·BY MR. FREE: ·4· · · · aren't known to us, so it's hard to speculate what ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay, when would you do that typically?· When ·5· · · · else would we have to consider in - in building up ·6· ·would you initiate the analysis?· Would it be once the ·6· · · · our - our costs, but again I'm just not the expert ·7· ·RFP goes out? ·7· · · · on it.· This is not what I do at the company. ·8· · · · A.· ·When the RFP goes out. ·8· ·BY MR. FREE: ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right, anything else that you would ·9· · · · Q.· ·Is that Miss Martin that you talked about 10· ·take into consideration when you're thinking about how 10· ·earlier who would be primarily responsible for that or 11· ·to submit to the Federal Government the most competitive 11· ·is it somebody else? 12· ·bid if this RFI eventually gets to an RFP and you're 12· · · · A.· ·All pricing determinations would come out of 13· ·trying to get the contract?· What else would you take 13· ·our CFO's office. 14· ·into consideration? 14· · · · Q.· ·Who's that? 15· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 15· · · · A.· ·Who's our CFO? 16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Can you repeat that? 16· · · · Q.· ·Uh-huh. 17· ·BY MR. FREE: 17· · · · A.· ·Brian Evans. 18· · · · Q.· ·Sure. 18· · · · Q.· ·And so when you say I'm not the expert on 19· · · · · · ·So GEO's going to submit something to the 19· ·that, it's somebody else, it's Mr. Evans? 20· ·Federal Government to try and get this contract is my 20· · · · A.· ·All of -- So he is responsible for that. 21· ·understanding of what's going to happen; is that right? 21· ·Obviously he has -- I shouldn't say obviously.· He has 22· · · · A.· ·Correct. 22· ·staff that have the appropriate backgrounds to help 23· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and you've just described to me a number 23· ·determine the pricing and the cost, et cetera. 24· ·of factors that GEO will consider and plug into a model 24· · · · Q.· ·Okay, have you personally seen GEO's model 25· ·before it makes that submission to the Federal 25· ·that you would -- I think you said model earlier, right? ·1· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· -- asked and answered. 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 21 of 81 Page ID #:2478 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 77–80 Page 77 ·1· · · · A.· ·I -- No, I have not personally seen the model. ·1· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. Page 79 ·2· · · · · · ·You know, I think model is kind of used ·2· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Profit is a category. ·3· ·loosely.· I don't know what - all the algorithms and ·3· ·BY MR. FREE: ·4· ·formulas that go into that so, no, I haven't seen -- ·4· · · · Q.· ·That's a factor in your model, right? ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·5· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·6· · · · A.· ·-- that.· I've seen a screen shot of the ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay, as it should be, right?· You're a ·7· ·categories or a printout of the categories, but I don't ·7· ·publicly traded company? ·8· ·know all the math that goes behind it. ·8· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·9· · · · Q.· ·When you say the categories, are you talking ·9· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It's a consideration. 10· ·about the inputs that we've discussed so far or 10· ·BY MR. FREE: 11· ·something else? 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you have any understanding right now 12· · · · A.· ·It would be those - those inputs. 12· ·whether -- I'm going to -- These next set of questions 13· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and can you think of any other inputs 13· ·are going to be about Adelanto, okay, and I know that 14· ·that would go into the - the model, for lack of a better 14· ·you're not an expert on that and you haven't reviewed 15· ·word, that you've seen the screen shot of? 15· ·more than a couple pages of the agreement, so if you 16· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 16· ·don't know, you just tell me you don't know, okay? 17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Again I just can't recall all of 17· · · · A.· ·Okay. 18· · · · the categories. 18· · · · Q.· ·All right, do you have any understanding of 19· ·BY MR. FREE: 19· ·whether or not Adelanto if your assumptions about what 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay, in addition to the prevailing wage 20· ·it's going to cost you, GEO, to provide the services to 21· ·determinations and collective bargaining agreements do 21· ·the Federal Government are wrong, right, so, you know, 22· ·you include as a labor cost nonexempt executive 22· ·you've -- 23· ·compensation or administrators who might not have their 23· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· I didn't hear. 24· ·salary or their wage determined by the Federal 24· · · · Q.· ·Sure.· Okay, so I understand that you have a 25· ·Government or the State Government? 25· ·bed-day rate that you're paid by the Federal Government Page 78 Page 80 ·1· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·1· ·as part of your contract? ·2· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Can you be a little more ·2· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.· (Affirmative response)? ·3· · · · specific? ·3· · · · Q.· ·Yeah? ·4· ·BY MR. FREE: ·4· · · · · · ·And I understand it's a fixed price agreement? ·5· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· Sure. ·5· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·6· · · · · · ·So the Federal Government and the prevailing ·6· · · · Q.· ·Not a cost plus agreement, not any other type ·7· ·wage sets, you know, wages for like various positions, ·7· ·of agreements, a fixed price agreement, right? ·8· ·right? ·8· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·9· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and I understand that to mean that you 10· · · · Q.· ·All right, warden, an assistant warden are not 10· ·have calculated - GEO has calculated all of the costs 11· ·within those wage rates, right?· GEO gets to figure out 11· ·that it's going to incur in order to meet the 12· ·what it's going to pay those people? 12· ·requirements that the Federal Government has set forth, 13· · · · A.· ·I don't know if they are or aren't in those -- 13· ·you figure that out and you've built it into your per - 14· · · · Q.· ·Oh, okay. 14· ·your bed-day rate, right, and if your costs are more you 15· · · · A.· ·-- DOL. 15· ·don't get to just as a matter of course pass those 16· · · · Q.· ·Do you know the difference between exempt and 16· ·increased costs on to the Federal Government; is that 17· ·right? 17· ·nonexempt labor? 18· · · · A.· ·I don't.· I'm not a labor expert. 18· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 19· · · · Q.· ·Fair enough. 19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That is correct.· If our model 20· · · · · · ·I'm going to put the turtle on the table. 20· · · · was wrong we eat those costs. 21· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Oh, please don't. 21· ·BY MR. FREE: 22· ·BY MR. FREE: 22· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so under a fixed price agreement if 23· · · · Q.· ·Is profit one of the considerations that you 23· ·your - if you can find ways to say save like a dollar on 24· ·put into the model when you're figuring out what - that 24· ·the - maybe like the clothing that you would procure for 25· ·bed rate you're going to propose to the government? 25· ·the people who are there under what you thought then you 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 22 of 81 Page ID #:2479 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 81–84 Page 81 ·1· ·can really get more out of the per diem than what the ·2· ·expectation was, right? ·3· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·4· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Again if our cost estimates were ·5· · · · high or low, yes, it would have an impact. ·6· ·BY MR. FREE: ·7· · · · Q.· ·So if they're higher you eat the costs, ·8· ·conversely if they're lower you keep what the Federal ·9· ·Government's giving you, right, under a fixed price 10· ·agreement? 11· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 13· ·BY MR. FREE: 14· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so GEO will do everything it can I would 15· ·think in this round of procurement to make sure that 16· ·you're able to ascertain as much as you can what 17· ·everything that you're going to give the government is 18· ·going to cost GEO? 19· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 20· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· We're certainly going to 21· · · · validate the - the model to make sure that the cost 22· · · · is correct. 23· ·BY MR. FREE: 24· · · · Q.· ·Okay, how would you validate the model? 25· · · · A.· ·I don't know how they would validate the Page 82 ·1· ·model.· Again it's just not my area of expertise, so -·2· · · · Q.· ·All right, as a dumb guy when I think validate ·3· ·the model I would think you figured out what it's going ·4· ·to cost you to buy soap.· GEO doesn't make soap, right, ·5· ·so you're going to have to buy it from someone.· You ·6· ·figured out what it's going to cost you to buy soap and ·7· ·you want to make sure that that cost is correct and ·8· ·validating the model would be just confirming that that ·9· ·is the actual price that it's going to cost us for soap, 10· ·you know, as an input into this model.· Is that kind of 11· ·what you're talking about? 12· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 13· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I wouldn't - I wouldn't argue 14· · · · with that.· I mean it's I'm sure one way of 15· · · · validating.· I just don't know who does the 16· · · · validation, how they do it, what they compare 17· · · · against. 18· ·BY MR. FREE: 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, but someone at GEO does that? 20· · · · A.· ·I'm sure there are many people that do that. 21· · · · Q.· ·Okay, does the Federal Government as part of 22· ·any of GEO's contracts set a ceiling on the profit 23· ·margin the company can take? 24· · · · A.· ·Yes. 25· · · · Q.· ·Which contracts? Page 83 ·1· · · · A.· ·All of the contracts. ·2· · · · Q.· ·Are they in the text of the contract, these ·3· ·ceilings? ·4· · · · A.· ·No. ·5· · · · Q.· ·How does the Federal Government set that ·6· ·ceiling? ·7· · · · A.· ·Through the -- Well, how do they set it? I ·8· ·think it's set in the Federal Acquisition Regulations ·9· ·certain types of contracts that are permissible profit 10· ·or profit margins, I don't know how that's defined 11· ·there, and through the negotiation process through the 12· ·review of our proposal, cost proposal in particular they 13· ·will determine whether or not that profit is reasonable 14· ·within the FAR. 15· · · · Q.· ·Do you as you sit here today know what the 16· ·ceiling, if any, is at Adelanto on the acceptable level 17· ·of profit that the Federal Government has set? 18· · · · A.· ·I don't know what the FAR ranges are. 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so I think I understand your testimony 20· ·to be that if I wanted to know what the Federal 21· ·Government's using in setting that limit I could look at 22· ·the Federal Acquisition Regulations; is that right? 23· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's where I would go. 25· ·BY MR. FREE: Page 84 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·2· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·3· · · · Q.· ·All right, do you know any facilities as you ·4· ·sit here today where a profit ceiling is included in the ·5· ·contract between GEO and ICE? ·6· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm not aware. ·8· ·BY MR. FREE: ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 10· · · · · · ·Do you know whether GEO is still serving any 11· ·debt obligations on its purchase of the Adelanto 12· ·Detention Facility? 13· · · · A.· ·I do not know. 14· · · · Q.· ·If GEO ends up having to spend more than it 15· ·thought it was going to spend on any particular item, 16· ·let's say the collective bargaining agreement, for 17· ·example, I believe you said they can seek an equitable 18· ·adjustment?· Are you -- Not about this specific 19· ·question, but there's an equitable adjustment process 20· ·where you go back to the Federal Government and say it's 21· ·going to cost us more, can we have more money?· Is that 22· ·basically the way it works? 23· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· There is a process to request a 25· · · · rate adjustment.· I don't know all the 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 23 of 81 Page ID #:2480 Page 85 ·1· · · · circumstances that would trigger that, but there is ·1· ·It's at the bottom here.· It's 480. ·2· · · · a process. ·2· · · · A.· ·Oh. Page 87 ·3· ·BY MR. FREE: ·3· · · · Q.· · ·4· ·5· ·GEO more, GEO is going to receive the per diem rate that ·5· · ·6· ·was proposed and agreed upon regardless of what GEO ·6· · ·7· ·actually ends up having to pay to deliver the service? ·7· · ·8· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·8· · · · A.· · ·9· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Right.· The per diem rate is ·9· · · · Q.· · 10· · · · what we would be paid. 10· · 11· ·BY MR. FREE: 11· · 12· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so if costs go up or down to GEO again 12· · · · A.· · 13· ·you eat the up and you keep -- GEO eats the, you know, 13· · · · Q.· · 14· ·the increased costs and it keeps the benefit of the 14· · · · · · · 15· ·lower costs generally; is that right? 15· · 16· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form, asked and 16· 17· · · · answered. 17· 18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Correct. 18· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· 19· ·BY MR. FREE: 19· ·BY MR. FREE: 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay, cool. 20· · · · Q.· 21· · · · · · ·What is a blended per diem rate? 21· · · · A.· · 22· · · · A.· ·A blended per diem rate is - it's the - the 22· · · · Q.· 23· ·guaranteed rate plus the incremental per diem, so if the 23· · 24· ·government decides to use the extra capacity the 24· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· 25· ·there's a different per diem rate for that and I believe 25· ·BY MR. FREE: ·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay, but unless the government agrees to pay Page 86 ·1· ·you add the two, divide it and come up with a blended ·1· · · · Q.· · ·2· ·per diem rate. ·2· · ·3· · · · Q.· ·How does GEO determine the difference between ·3· · ·4· ·what it's going to offer as the per diem, like the ·4· · ·5· ·guaranteed capacity and then the per diem for whatever ·5· · · · A.· · ·6· ·in addition that the government decides to use? ·6· · · · Q.· · ·7· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·7· · ·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's all determined by the ·8· · ·9· · · · costs required to support the - the minimum ·9· · · · A.· · 10· · · · guaranteed and all the services that we propose and 10· · · · Q.· · 11· · · · in the same for the incremental, so whatever costs 11· · 12· · · · are required to provide those services are factored 12· · · · A.· · 13· · · · in. 13· · · · Q.· · 14· ·BY MR. FREE: 14· 15· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you happen to know the blended per 15· · 16· ·diem at Adelanto? 16· · · · A.· · 17· · · · A.· ·I do not. 17· · · · Q.· · 18· · · · Q.· ·Do you know what the minimum bed guaranteed 18· · 19· ·cost is? 19· · · · A.· · 20· · · · A.· ·The cost? 20· · 21· · · · Q.· ·The per diem, the minimum bed guaranteed per 21· · 22· ·diem rate. 22· 23· · · · A.· ·I do not. 23· · 24· · · · Q.· ·Okay, if you would please flip to page 480 on 24· · 25· ·the document in Exhibit One that's in front of you. 25· · Page 88 Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 24 of 81 Page ID #:2481 Page 89 ·1· · Page 91 ·1· ·collective bargaining agreement between GEO and the ·2· · · · Q.· · ·2· ·people who work there that might increase GEO's costs ·3· · · · A.· · ·3· ·that is then going to need to be reflected in the - the ·4· ·4· ·costs to GEO and therefore the bed-day rate.· Is that a ·5· ·5· ·fair summarization of what's happening in this document? ·6· · · · Q.· ·Is it fair to say that either ICE or GEO could ·6· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·7· ·initiate that change in per diem or try to initiate it ·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Your question again? ·8· ·if you're going to try and agree, so GEO could ask to ·8· ·BY MR. FREE: ·9· ·increase the per diem or ICE could ask to reduce the per ·9· · · · Q.· ·Do you recognize this document? 10· ·diem?· Is that fair? 10· · · · A.· ·I don't.· It's the first time I've seen it. 11· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you know generally what this 12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't think that the premise 12· ·government form, Standard Form 30 is? 13· · · · is correct.· I mean there certainly is a process 13· · · · A.· ·By the title it's an amendment of the 14· · · · that allows for GEO or a provider to initiate a 14· ·solicitation or modification of a contract. 15· · · · request for an equitable adjustment and I would 15· · · · Q.· ·Who are the parties? 16· · · · assume there's the same for the government to again 16· · · · A.· ·ICE and the City of Adelanto. 17· · · · initiate GEO to submit a proposal for additional 17· · · · Q.· ·When you see in box two it says amendment 18· · · · services or they could reduce services which could 18· ·modification number P19, do you see that? 19· · · · impact the per diem as well. 19· · · · A.· ·Excuse me.· Yes. 20· ·BY MR. FREE: 20· · · · Q.· ·To me that means there's probably eighteen 21· · · · Q.· ·So what part of the premise did you think was 21· ·modifications before that happens.· Is that what that 22· ·incorrect in my question? 22· ·means to you? 23· · · · A.· ·Well, I guess I just didn't completely 23· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 24· ·understand where you're going with it, but there are 24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I do not know. 25· ·prescribed processes in the FAR that allow either party 25· ·BY MR. FREE: Page 90 ·1· ·to initiate.· For us it's a request I think on GEO.· On ·2· ·the Feds it would be not a request but you shall, but ·3· ·I - again I know there is a process. ·4· · · · Q.· ·Yeah? ·5· · · · A.· ·Yeah. ·6· · · · Q.· ·Just as a layperson it would seem to me that ·7· ·the only other option that GEO would have if the ·8· ·government says we're going to reduce your rate is, ·9· ·well, we don't want to do the contract anymore, right? 10· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 11· ·BY MR. FREE: 12· · · · Q.· ·You're saying for the government it's not 13· ·really a request? 14· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 15· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· If the government determines 16· · · · that they don't no longer need specific services 17· · · · then we would have to adjust. 18· ·BY MR. FREE: 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, I'm going to hand you what we are 20· ·marking as Exhibit Ten. 21· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Exhibit 10 was marked) 22· ·BY MR. FREE: 23· · · · Q.· ·So Exhibit Ten is what I think you were 24· ·talking about earlier or an example of what I think you 25· ·were talking about earlier when there's a different Page 92 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay, it's signed by the mayor on ·2· ·October 28th, 2015.· That's box 15C.· Do you see that? ·3· · · · A.· ·I do. ·4· · · · Q.· ·So I understand this to mean that that's ·5· ·that's when this modification at least was signed by the ·6· ·City of Adelanto?· Is that your understanding of it as ·7· ·well? ·8· · · · A.· ·That's what it appears to be. ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and in box E14 - or excuse me - 14, 10· ·description of amendment modification, do you see that? 11· · · · A.· ·Yes. 12· · · · Q.· ·The, I guess, third line of text says, "The 13· ·purpose of this modification is to incorporate the 14· ·following:"· Have I read that right? 15· · · · A.· ·Yes. 16· · · · Q.· · 17· 18· · 19· · 20· · 21· · 22· · 23· · 24· · · · A.· · 25· · · · Q.· ·And the effective date looks like 9/1/2014. Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 25 of 81 Page ID #:2482 Page 93 Page 95 ·1· · · · Q.· · ·2· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·2· · · · · · · ·3· · · · Q.· ·It looks like it was signed on October 28th, ·3· · · · · · · ·4· ·2015.· When does the Federal fiscal year start?· What ·4· · ·5· ·date? ·5· · ·6· · · · A.· ·October 1st. ·6· · ·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right, so you talked earlier about ·7· · · · A.· · ·8· ·you remembered there having been a modification based on ·8· · · · Q.· · ·9· ·a collective bargaining agreement change.· I'm not ·9· · · · A.· · 10· ·representing to you that that is that modification, but 10· · · · Q.· · 11· ·is this what you're talking about -11· · · · · · · 12· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 12· · 13· ·BY MR. FREE: 13· · 14· · · · Q.· ·-- when you were thinking about changing the 14· · 15· ·bed-day rate based on this additional cost? 15· · · · A.· · 16· · · · A.· ·I mean this is the - the type of activity that 16· · · · Q.· · 17· ·would change it. 17· · 18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right, and so this is GEO because 18· · 19· ·of the collective bargaining agreement and its 19· 20· ·obligations under that agreement is going to increase 20· · 21· ·the detention - the pay of people in the CBA, right? 21· · 22· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 22· · · · A.· · 23· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Correct. 23· · · · Q.· ·Okay, is this another example of a situation 24· ·BY MR. FREE: 24· ·in which additional costs that GEO is going to have to 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and then the bed-day rate is ICE and GEO 25· ·pay are resulting in an increase in the per diem rate so ·1· ·Do you see that? Page 94 ·1· ·are agreeing, or ICE and the City of Adelanto, which ·1· ·you -- Do you understand my question? Page 96 ·2· ·then GEO has assumed its obligations, are agreeing the ·2· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·3· ·bed-day rate is going to increase; is that right? ·3· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know who initiated the ·4· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·4· · · · request, but there was an agreement that the number ·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Correct. ·5· · · · of medical staff would increase therefore impacting ·6· ·BY MR. FREE: ·6· · · · the per diem rate. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so I'm going to hand you what we'll mark ·7· ·BY MR. FREE: ·8· ·as Exhibit Eleven. ·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so the more medical providers you have ·9· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Exhibit 11 was marked) ·9· ·on site the more you're going to have to pay -- 10· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Thank you. 10· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to -- 11· ·BY MR. FREE: 11· ·BY MR. FREE: 12· · · · Q.· ·This is another Standard Form 30 between it 12· · · · Q.· ·-- generally, right? 13· ·looks like Immigration and Customs Enforcement in the 13· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 14· ·City of Adelanto under the GEO contract, right? 14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Correct. 15· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 15· ·BY MR. FREE: 16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 16· · · · Q.· · 17· ·BY MR. FREE: 17· · 18· · · · Q.· ·Okay, this - in box number two it says 18· · 19· ·amendment modification number and it says P00003.· Do 19· 20· ·you see that? 20· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· 21· · · · A.· ·Yes. 21· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· 22· · · · Q.· ·All right, it looks like it was signed box 16, 22· ·BY MR. FREE: 23· ·see all the way on the bottom right on December 12th, 23· · · · Q.· 24· ·2012?· Do you see that? 24· · 25· · · · A.· ·December 5th? 25· · Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 26 of 81 Page ID #:2483 Page 97 Page 99 ·1· · ·2· · · · A.· · ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·3· · · · Q.· · ·4· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· This is going to be marked Twelve, ·4· · ·5· · · · Exhibit Twelve. ·5· · ·6· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Exhibit 12 was marked) ·6· · ·7· ·BY MR. FREE: ·7· · · · A.· · ·8· · · · Q.· ·I don't know why they did this, but in Exhibit ·8· · · · Q.· · ·9· ·Eleven it references P00004 in box 14 and I think that ·9· · · · A.· · 10· ·that's this.· I think that's this document, okay? 10· · · · Q.· · 11· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· Which? 11· · · · A.· · 12· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, let me show you. 12· · · · Q.· · 13· · · · · · ·So if you look back at Exhibit Eleven, the one 13· · · · A.· · 14· ·we looked at just a second ago -14· · · · Q.· · 15· · · · A.· ·Okay. 15· · · · A.· 16· · · · Q.· ·-- and you look at paragraph -- Box 14.· Do 16· · · · Q.· 17· ·you see in accordance with IGSA modification P00004? 17· · 18· · · · A.· ·Yes. 18· · 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, this is P0004 I'm going to represent to 19· · · · A.· · 20· ·you that you're sitting and that you're looking at, and 20· · · · Q.· · 21· ·so we're going to look at Exhibit Twelve now. 21· · 22· · · · · · ·Do you see in box - box 12 on the first page 22· · 23· ·it says, "This supplemental agreement is entered 23· · · · A.· · 24· ·pursuant to the authority of" and it just has a check 24· · · · Q.· · 25· ·box and it says "Mutual agreement."· Do you see that? 25· · ·1· · ·2· · · · A.· · . Page 98 Page 100 ·1· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·1· · · · A.· · ·2· · · · Q.· ·All right, I understand this to mean that the ·2· · · · Q.· · ·3· ·parties to the contract have all agreed to this ·3· · ·4· ·modification.· Do you have the same understanding? ·4· · ·5· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·5· · ·6· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. ·6· · · · A.· · ·7· ·BY MR. FREE: ·7· · · · Q.· · ·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and it appears to me in box 14 that ·8· · ·9· ·there's several modifications that are being included, ·9· · 10· ·and I'll tell you why that is what I'm seeing.· I'm 10· · 11· ·seeing to change the bed-day rate, this is a quote, so 11· · 12· ·to change the bed -- Do you see where I'm reading? 12· · 13· ·Where it starts A to change the bed-day rate. 13· · 14· · · · A.· ·Yes. 14· · 15· · · · Q.· · 15· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· 16· · 16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· 17· · 17· · · · 18· · 18· · · · 19· · · · A.· · 19· ·BY MR. FREE: 20· · · · Q.· · 20· · · · Q.· ·And as a consequence GEO was going to have to 21· · · · A.· · 21· ·incur more costs to pay those people; is that right? 22· · · · Q.· · 22· · · · A.· ·Yes. 23· · 23· · · · Q.· ·And consequently their per day value the per 24· · 24· ·diem rate would increase for GEO, right? 25· · 25· · · · A.· ·Correct. Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 27 of 81 Page ID #:2484 Page 101 Page 103 ·1· · · · Q.· ·And then GEO and ICE agreed to increase the ·1· · ·2· ·contracts per day rates; is that right? ·2· · ·3· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·3· · · · A.· · ·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so the - the -- Okay.· All right. ·4· · · · Q.· · ·5· · · · · · ·I'm going to hand you a document that we'll ·5· · ·6· ·mark as Exhibit Thirteen. ·6· · · · A.· · ·7· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Exhibit 13 was marked) ·7· · · · Q.· · ·8· ·BY MR. FREE: ·8· · ·9· · · · Q.· ·This is another Standard Form 30.· In box 2 it ·9· · 10· ·reads the amendment modification number is P00020.· Do 10· · 11· ·you see that? 11· · · · A.· · 12· · · · A.· ·Yes. 12· · · · Q.· · 13· · · · Q.· ·Did I read that correctly? 13· · · · · · · 14· · · · A.· ·Yes. 14· · 15· · · · Q.· ·Then if we look at box 13 or field 13 it 15· · 16· ·says - there's a checkmark by bilateral mutual agreement 16· · 17· ·of both parties.· Do you see where I've read that? 17· · 18· · · · A.· ·Yes. 18· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· 19· · · · Q.· · 19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· 20· · 20· ·BY MR. FREE: 21· · 21· · · · Q.· · 22· · 22· 23· · 23· · 24· · 24· · · · A.· · 25· · 25· · · · Q.· · Page 102 ·1· · · · A.· · ·2· · · · Q.· · ·3· · · · A.· · ·4· · · · · · · ·5· · · · Q.· · ·6· · · · · · · ·7· · ·8· · ·9· · 10· 11· · 12· · · · A.· · 13· · · · Q.· · 14· · · · A.· · 15· · · · Q.· · 16· 17· · 18· · · · A.· · 19· · · · Q.· · 20· · 21· 22· · 23· · · · A.· · 24· · · · Q.· 25· · . . . Page 104 ·1· · ·2· · ·3· · · · · · · ·4· · ·5· · ·6· · · · A.· · ·7· · · · Q.· · ·8· · · · A.· · ·9· · · · Q.· · 10· · 11· · 12· · 13· · · · A.· · 14· · · · Q.· · 15· · 16· · · · A.· · 17· · · · Q.· · 18· · 19· · 20· · 21· · 22· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· 23· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· 24· · · · 25· ·BY MR. FREE: . Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 28 of 81 Page ID #:2485 Page 105 Page 107 ·1· · ·1· · · · Q.· · ·2· · · · A.· ·3· ·4· · ·5· · · · Q.· · ·6· · ·7· · ·8· · · · A.· ·9· · · · Q.· · 10· · · · A.· · 11· · · · Q.· · 12· · · · · · · 13· · · · A.· · 14· · · · Q.· · 15· · 16· 17· · · · A.· · 18· · · · Q.· · 19· · 20· · · · A.· · 21· · · · Q.· · 22· · 23· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· 24· ·BY MR. FREE: 25· · · · Q.· ·2· · ·3· · . ·4· · ·5· · ·6· · · · A.· · ·7· · · · Q.· · ·8· · ·9· · 10· · · · A.· · 11· · · · Q.· · 12· · 13· · · · A.· · 14· · · · Q.· · 15· 16· · · · A.· · 17· · · · Q.· · 18· · · · A.· · 19· · · · Q.· · 20· · 21· · 22· · · · A.· · 23· · · · Q.· · 24· · 25· · · · · · · Page 106 ·1· · ·2· · ·3· · · · A.· · ·4· · · · Q.· · . ·5· · · · A.· · ·6· · · · Q.· · ·7· · ·8· · ·9· · 10· · 11· · 12· · 13· · · · A.· · 14· · · · Q.· · 15· · · · A.· · 16· · · · Q.· · 17· · 18· · 19· 20· · · · A.· · 21· · · · Q.· · 22· · · · · · · 23· · 24· · · · A.· · 25· · · · Q.· · . Page 108 ·1· · ·2· · ·3· · · · A.· · ·4· · · · Q.· · ·5· · · · A.· · ·6· · · · Q.· · ·7· · ·8· · · · A.· · ·9· · · · Q.· · 10· · · · A.· · 11· · · · Q.· · 12· · · · A.· · 13· · · · Q.· · 14· · 15· · 16· · 17· · 18· · · · A.· · 19· · · · Q.· · 20· · 21· · 22· · 23· · 24· · 25· · . , Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 29 of 81 Page ID #:2486 Page 109 ·1· · ·2· · ·3· · · · A.· · ·4· · · · Q.· ·5· · ·6· · ·7· · ·8· · · · A.· · ·9· · · · · · · 10· · · · Q.· · 11· · · · A.· · . 12· · · · Q.· · 13· · · · · · · 14· · 15· · 16· · 17· · · · A.· · 18· · · · Q.· · 19· · 20· · 21· · · · A.· · 22· · · · Q.· · 23· 24· · 25· Page 111 ·1· ·staffing plan address? ·2· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·3· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Which program? ·4· ·BY MR. FREE: ·5· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, so, you know, we've been talking about ·6· ·these categories.· You've got food service, you've got ·7· ·recreation, you've got medical.· Which category is this? ·8· · · · A.· ·This would be the security staff or the ·9· ·detention officers. 10· · · · Q.· 11· 12· · 13· · · · A.· · 14· · · · Q.· · 15· 16· · 17· · · · · · 18· · · · A.· · 19· · · · Q.· · 20· · · · A.· · 21· · · · Q.· · 22· · · · A.· · 23· · · · Q.· · 24· · · · A.· · 25· · · · Q.· · Page 110 ·1· · · · A.· · ·2· · · · Q.· ·3· ·4· · · · A.· · ·5· · · · Q.· · ·6· · · · · · · ·7· · . ·8· · · · · · · ·9· · 10· · 11· · · · A.· · 12· · · · Q.· · 13· · 14· · · · A.· · 15· · · · Q.· · 16· 17· · · · A.· · 18· · · · Q.· · 19· · · · A.· · 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so then we have - we have what I think 21· ·is the difference between these two plans, and you'll 22· ·correct me if I'm wrong, if you look at the minimum plan 23· ·on page 1838 it's cell G134.· Do you see it? 24· · · · A.· ·Yes. 25· · · · Q.· ·Which - which program does this part of the Page 112 ·1· · · · A.· · ·2· · · · Q.· · ·3· · ·4· · ·5· · ·6· · · · A.· · ·7· · · · Q.· · ·8· · ·9· · 10· · 11· · 12· · · · A.· · 13· · · · Q.· · 14· · 15· · 16· · · · A.· 17· · · · Q.· 18· · · · · · · 19· · 20· · 21· · · · A.· · 22· · · · Q.· · 23· · 24· · 25· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 30 of 81 Page ID #:2487 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 113–116 Page 113 ·1· ·BY MR. FREE: ·2· · · · Q.· ·Why -- I'll ask a different question. ·3· · · · · · ·Why are the - the detention officers higher ·4· ·for the second plan? ·5· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· The same objection. ·6· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Because you - as you bring on ·7· · · · more detainees you bring on or activate more pods ·8· · · · or dorms and so whether you have one detainee or ·9· · · · five hundred in there you need a certain number of 10· · · · officers to staff it, so it's based on the physical 11· · · · plant and the number of staff needed to - to manage 12· · · · that particular unit.· I'm assuming it -- Excuse 13· · · · me. 14· · · · · · ·These are dorm units or beds where they 15· · · · where they sleep and spend most of their days, so 16· · · · as you activate those you need officers to staff 17· · · · it. 18· · · · · · ·Like I said, whether it's one or sixty-four in 19· · · · there you still need the same number of officers, 20· · · · so you can't pull officers from another unit to go 21· · · · staff it. 22· ·BY MR. FREE: 23· · · · Q.· ·The officers can't do double duty on one unit 24· ·and another is what you're saying, right? 25· · · · A.· ·Correct. Page 115 ·1· ·and provide a - a price to it for them to review and ·2· ·accept or negotiate to another - to another amount or ·3· ·reject it. ·4· · · · Q.· ·How does GEO determine the additional level of ·5· ·people that you would need based on the additional ·6· ·capacity when you're making these proposals to ICE? ·7· ·Like what factors does GEO take into consideration? ·8· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·9· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It depends on the size of the 10· · · · of the unit, it depends on the configuration.· It 11· · · · would also determine what kind of services, the 12· · · · classification of the detainees, et cetera.· You 13· · · · know, it's a number of factors that we consider in 14· · · · determining the appropriate number of staff to 15· · · · support a housing unit. 16· ·BY MR. FREE: 17· · · · Q.· ·Is that determination as far as you know 18· ·something that varies from contractor to contractor?· In 19· ·other words, does GEO make a determination based on its 20· ·experience and present that determination to ICE for an 21· ·agreement that could be different than CoreCivic, for 22· ·example? 23· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know what CoreCivic, how 25· · · · they developed their staffing models. Page 114 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so if you're going to have - you said ·1· ·BY MR. FREE: ·2· ·they're - you're going to open different pods?· Did I Page 116 ·2· · · · Q.· ·You don't? ·3· ·understand that right?· What did you mean when you said ·3· · · · A.· ·I don't.· No, I don't. ·4· ·pods, the additional pods? ·4· · · · Q.· ·You couldn't reverse engineer it? ·5· · · · A.· ·Well, I'm assuming as you increase the ·5· · · · A.· ·I don't know.· I haven't seen their staffing ·6· ·capacity you're going to have to house detainees in the ·6· ·plan, so I don't know if I could or could not, but we ·7· ·housing units that are now currently idle and when you ·7· ·don't have a need to.· We - we provide our proposal ·8· ·do that you have to add the appropriate number of staff. ·8· ·based on like I said a number of factors to include the ·9· · · · Q.· ·Why? ·9· ·facility layout and that's up to ICE to accept or not. 10· · · · A.· ·One, because those are the requirements of the 10· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Okay, can we take a break and 11· ·contract.· You need to provide safety and security and 11· · · · let him clear up his throat? 12· ·all the other services that we proposed to provide to 12· ·BY MR. FREE: 13· ·ICE that they agreed to. 13· · · · Q.· ·Do you need a break? 14· · · · Q.· ·By we you're talking about GEO, right? 14· · · · A.· ·How much longer are we going to go? 15· · · · A.· ·Correct. 15· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Let's take a break. 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and did I understand you to mean that 16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Okay. 17· ·when you said the requirements of the contract what do 17· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· So you're asking for a break? 18· ·you mean? 18· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Yeah. 19· · · · A.· ·There are specific requirements that are 19· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· We are going off the video 20· ·outlined in - in an RFP and any modifications after that 20· · · · record 11:17 a.m. 21· ·that say you shall do this or you shall do that and you 21· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, there was a brief recess observed) 22· ·propose to GEO how you're going to implement that, how 22· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· We are back on the video 23· ·would you manage that, how would you staff that and so 23· · · · record 11:27 a.m. 24· ·as a result of those requirements we'll provide whether 24· ·BY MR. FREE: 25· ·it's additional personnel or other services back to ICE 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay, Mr. Venturella, prior to the break to 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 31 of 81 Page ID #:2488 Page 117 ·1· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·1· ·attend to your allergies, and again if you need a break Page 119 ·2· ·just let us know, okay? ·2· · · · Q.· ·And then 118 through 121 looks like the new ·3· · · · A.· ·Thank you. ·3· ·west expansion housing.· Do you see that? ·4· · · · Q.· · ·4· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·5· · ·5· · · · Q.· ·All right, but then -- So those are the pods ·6· · ·6· ·you're talking about, I think, is that fair? ·7· · ·7· · · · A.· ·Housing units. ·8· · · · · · ·8· · · · Q.· ·Yeah. ·9· · ·9· · · · A.· ·Sure. 10· · 10· · · · Q.· ·Okay, but then you also have other things. 11· · 11· ·You have the recreation yard -- I'm on page 1838 -- And 12· · 12· ·GEO has the recreation yard in row 122, GEO has a guard 13· · 13· ·or some staffing for the intake and release area in 123. 14· · 14· ·Do you see those things? 15· · 15· · · · A.· ·Yes. 16· · 16· · · · Q.· ·All right, there's also detention officer 17· · 17· ·positions it looks like in rows 1 - row 130 for food 18· · 18· ·service.· Do you see that? 19· · 19· · · · A.· ·Yes. 20· · · · A.· · 20· · · · Q.· ·All right, and then if we look at page 1848 -- 21· · · · Q.· · 21· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry?· Which page? 22· · 22· · · · Q.· ·1841.· Excuse me. 23· · · · A.· · 23· · · · A.· ·41. 24· · · · Q.· · 24· · · · Q.· ·The max staffing plan. 25· · 25· · · · · · ·The equivalent basic structure you have east Page 118 ·1· · Page 120 ·1· ·housing, west housing, U.S. expansion housing, detention ·2· · ·2· ·officers who are going to be there.· Those numbers ·3· · ·3· ·increased from the minimum guaranteed to the max ·4· · ·4· ·capacity staffing plans, right? ·5· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· ·5· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·6· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· ·6· · · · Q.· ·All right, and then you have - similarly you ·7· · · · ·7· ·have detention officers who are going to be in food ·8· · · · ·8· ·service in the law library and those are listed under ·9· · · · ·9· ·the staffing plan as well?· Yeah? 10· · · · 10· · · · A.· ·Yes. 11· ·BY MR. FREE: 11· · · · Q.· ·All right. 12· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 12· · · · A.· ·That's what I'm reading. 13· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· Right hand. 13· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you happen to know whether the 14· ·BY MR. FREE: 14· ·detention officer positions for, say, food service -- 15· · · · Q.· ·As I compare the detention officer positions 15· ·Let's take that as an example, okay, so we'll be real 16· ·listed in each version of these staffing plans and the 16· ·specific. 17· ·minimum and the maximum I don't just see pods.· I see a 17· · · · · · ·Do you know whether those detention officers 18· ·pretty granular accounting of where these detention 18· ·are actually preparing the food on the one hand or on 19· ·officers would work, and I'll tell you what I mean: 19· ·the other hand whether they're making sure that the 20· ·There's a - there's a listing, for instance, in rows 110 20· ·people who are working there are secure?· Do you know 21· ·through 113 that encompasses the east side of the 21· ·one way or the other? 22· ·facility.· Do you see that? 22· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 23· · · · A.· ·Yes. 23· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· They are not preparing food. 24· · · · Q.· ·And then 114 through 117 it looks like west 24· · · · They're providing security in the food and dining 25· ·housing.· Do you see that? 25· · · · areas. Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 32 of 81 Page ID #:2489 Page 121 Page 123 ·1· · · · A.· ·That is correct. ·2· · · · Q.· ·Why does there have to be security in the food ·2· · · · Q.· ·Because there's no detainees there? ·3· ·and dining areas? ·3· · · · A.· ·That is correct. ·4· · · · A.· ·It's a detention facility and you've got to ·4· · · · Q.· · ·5· ·control movements.· You've got to make sure people ·5· · ·6· ·aren't fighting, you've got to make sure that people are ·6· ·7· ·doing what they're supposed to be doing and where ·7· · ·8· ·they're supposed to be, so there is some level of ·8· · ·9· ·security and supervision that's required in all areas of ·9· · 10· ·the facility. 10· · 11· · · · Q.· ·Who would be fighting in the - the food 11· · 12· ·service areas? 12· · 13· · · · A.· ·I don't -13· · 14· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to form. 14· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· 15· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know. 15· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· 16· ·BY MR. FREE: 16· · · · 17· · · · Q.· ·Would it be GEO employees? 17· · · · 18· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 18· · · · 19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I - I don't know. 19· ·BY MR. FREE: 20· ·BY MR. FREE: 20· · · · Q.· ·That was a bad example, yeah. 21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Well, let's not beat around the bush. 21· · · · A.· ·-- where there are no detainees. 22· · · · · · ·These detention officers are in the food 22· · · · Q.· ·Okay, that's a bad example.· I take your 23· ·service area because people who are detained there are 23· ·point.· I think that's right. 24· ·in the food service area; is that correct? 24· · · · · · ·They're not cooking, the detention officers 25· · · · A.· ·There are detainees in - in that area, yes. 25· ·are not cooking, they're there to supervise is the first ·1· ·BY MR. FREE: Page 122 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Well, that's not my question.· My question -·1· ·part, that's correct, right? Page 124 ·2· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· I didn't understand your question. ·2· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·3· · · · Q.· ·It's okay. ·3· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· They are not cooking.· They're ·4· · · · providing security. ·4· · · · · · ·My question was the detention officers are in ·5· ·the food service area because that's where detainees are ·5· ·BY MR. FREE: ·6· ·as well; is that right? ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay, the people over whom they are providing ·7· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·7· ·security are the people who are detained in the ·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I guess I'm not understanding ·8· ·facility, right? ·9· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·9· · · · your question. 10· ·BY MR. FREE: 11· · · · Q.· ·Why do you need a detention officer in the 10· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so I looked at these two plans, I'm 11· ·going to look at the minimum plan and I look at the food 12· ·food service area was my original question and you said, 12· ·service part.· It's row 130. 13· ·well, it's a secure facility, you've got to maintain 13· · · · A.· ·Which page? 14· ·security, you don't want people fighting and I guess 15· ·what I'm asking and what I'm getting at is it is because 16· ·there are detainees in the food service area, that a 17· ·detention officer needs to be incorporated into that 18· ·staffing plan; is that right? 19· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 20· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I understand so, yes, there are 21· · · · detainees in that area. 22· ·BY MR. FREE: 23· · · · Q.· ·Okay, you don't need a detention officer 24· ·necessarily in GEO's executive offices, you know, in an 25· ·adjacent little annex, right? 14· · · · Q.· · 15· · · · · · · 16· 17· 18· · 19· 20· · · · A.· · 21· · · · Q.· · 22· · 23· · 24· · · · · · · 25· · Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 33 of 81 Page ID #:2490 Page 125 Page 127 ·1· · ·1· ·BY MR. FREE: ·2· · · · A.· · ·2· · · · Q.· ·Other than an increased number of detained ·3· · · · Q.· · ·3· ·immigrants in that area of the facility in the food ·4· · ·4· ·service area of the facility, can you think of anything ·5· · ·5· ·else that would require GEO to double the number of ·6· · ·6· ·detention officers there? ·7· · · · A.· · ·7· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·8· · · · Q.· · ·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Scheduling.· Scheduling more -- ·9· · ·9· · · · Scheduling to accommodate the larger population so 10· 10· · · · they can attend, you know, for breakfast, lunch 11· · 11· · · · and - and dinner.· That's about the only reason I 12· · 12· · · · could think of that. 13· · 13· ·BY MR. FREE: 14· · · · A.· · 14· · · · Q.· ·Okay, tell me why scheduling took on to 15· ·accommodate the larger populations would double the 15· · · · Q.· · 16· · · · A.· · . 16· ·position? 17· · · · Q.· · 17· · · · A.· ·You would have people coming from another -- 18· 18· ·I'm sorry -- Housing unit into that area, we may have to 19· · 19· ·have the security officers move the other people out to 20· · 20· ·accommodate.· Again I'm just - that would be, I think, 21· · 21· ·the only reason, but I'm not the expert in that, so I 22· · · · A.· · 22· ·don't know. 23· · · · Q.· ·Twice as many people providing security.· Can 23· · · · Q.· ·Would you concede that it is possible that GEO 24· ·we agree on that in that area? 24· ·doubled the number of officers in the food service area 25· · · · A.· ·Correct. 25· ·because there are more detained immigrants in the food Page 126 Page 128 ·1· ·service area when the population of the facility ·2· ·security officers in the food service area, if you know, ·2· ·increases? ·3· ·when you've got - between the two plans? ·3· · · · A.· ·No. ·4· · · · A.· ·I do not. ·4· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·5· · · · Q.· ·You can - can you think of any reason why you ·5· ·BY MR. FREE: ·6· ·would need to double the number of detention officers in ·6· · · · Q.· ·You would not concede that? ·7· ·the food service area between one plan or the other? ·7· · · · A.· ·No. ·8· · · · A.· ·No.· I can't guess at that.· I don't know. ·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay, when GEO is constructing this plan I ·9· · · · A.· ·Because I don't know.· I don't know -10· ·think you explained to me that when there are more 10· · · · Q.· ·You don't know? 11· ·people in the facility you may have to have more 11· · · · A.· ·-- the reason or the basis for why the 12· ·detention officers because, for instance, GEO has opened 12· ·increase. 13· ·a new pod and so there will be more detainees that GEO 13· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any idea? 14· ·is responsible for supervising, correct? 14· · · · A.· ·No. 15· · · · A.· ·Correct. 15· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay, does the same logic hold with GEO's 16· ·BY MR. FREE: 17· ·staffing plan for the food service area?· In other 17· · · · Q.· ·Let's do it an easier way. 18· ·words, there will be more detention officers in the food 18· · · · A.· ·Okay. 19· ·service area under the second staffing plan because 19· · · · Q.· · 20· ·there will be more detained immigrants in the food 20· · 21· ·service area? 21· 22· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 22· · 23· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I - I wouldn't say that the same 23· · 24· · · · logic follows that, excuse me, because I - I don't 24· · · · A.· · 25· · · · know how that is managed at Adelanto. 25· · · · Q.· ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay, why do you need double the number of Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 34 of 81 Page ID #:2491 Page 129 ·1· · ·2· · ·3· · ·4· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· ·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· ·6· · · · ·7· ·BY MR. FREE: ·8· · · · Q.· ·9· · 10· · · · A.· · 11· · · · Q.· · 12· · 13· 14· · · · A.· · 15· · · · Q.· ·That's twice as many, right? 16· · · · A.· ·Yes. 17· · · · Q.· ·Who uses the law library at Adelanto? 18· · · · A.· ·The detainees. 19· · · · Q.· ·Anybody else? 20· · · · A.· ·I don't know. 21· · · · Q.· ·Is it open to the public? 22· · · · A.· ·No. 23· · · · Q.· ·Does GEO make it available to ICE officials? 24· · · · A.· ·I don't know. 25· · · · Q.· ·Is GEO required to have a law library by this Page 130 ·1· ·contract to your knowledge? ·2· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·3· · · · Q.· ·Why are there twice as many law library ·4· ·detention officer positions in the second staffing plan ·5· ·than on the first? ·6· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know. ·8· ·BY MR. FREE: ·9· · · · Q.· ·No idea? 10· · · · A.· ·No idea. 11· · · · Q.· ·What do you think? 12· · · · A.· ·I don't know. 13· · · · Q.· ·Let's look at recreation on the same page. 14· ·It's row 123. 15· · · · · · ·Excuse me.· Let's look at 125, utility escort. 16· ·Do you see that? 17· · · · A.· ·Yes. 18· · · · Q.· · 19· · 20· · 21· · · · A.· 22· · · · Q.· ·Look back at 1838. 23· · · · · · ·The same number, right? 24· · · · A.· ·Correct. 25· · · · Q.· ·All right. Page 131 ·1· · · · · · ·How - you said that there would be more guards ·2· ·because potentially there would be more people -- You ·3· ·said in essence that one explanation other than the fact ·4· ·that there's more people who were working, more ·5· ·detainees who were working in the food service area an ·6· ·explanation that you offered is that there could be ·7· ·because there are more people, I think, more people ·8· ·going to that area to get food.· Do I understand that ·9· ·explanation as you've described it to me? 10· · · · A.· ·What was the first part of your question? 11· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, so the first part of my question is I 12· ·asked you if the reason you need twice as many detention 13· ·officers, guards in the food service area if GEO needs 14· ·twice as many guards in the food service area because 15· ·there's more - twice as many -- There's more detainees 16· ·there and I don't think you've said yes to that. 17· · · · A.· ·Right.· I said I don't know. 18· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, and I think I asked if it's possible. 19· ·If I haven't asked, let me just ask you, is it possible 20· ·that's the reason you need twice - GEO needs twice as 21· ·many guards? 22· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form, vague. 23· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know. 24· ·BY MR. FREE: 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so you don't know whether GEO doubled Page 132 ·1· ·the number of detention officers in the food service ·2· ·area because there would be more detainees there when ·3· ·there's more people in the facility, you don't know the ·4· ·answer to that? ·5· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form, vague, asked ·6· · · · and answered. ·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Correct.· I don't know. ·8· ·BY MR. FREE: ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and you have also told me, I believe, 10· ·that an alternate explanation is that more people will 11· ·need meals and so they're coming to the food service 12· ·area and so maybe that's why you need twice as many 13· ·detention officers?· Do I understand the gist of that 14· ·explanation? 15· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form, vague, asked 16· · · · and answered, mischaracterizes. 17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Again I speculated on what could 18· · · · be a possible cause but I don't know that for a 19· · · · fact. 20· ·BY MR. FREE: 21· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 22· · · · · · ·If there are fewer detained immigrants at 23· ·Adelanto would you agree that GEO needs fewer guards? 24· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 25· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I guess it depends on what Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 35 of 81 Page ID #:2492 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 133–136 Page 133 ·1· · · · you're defining as fewer and what the population ·2· · · · is. ·3· ·BY MR. FREE: ·4· · · · Q.· ·Are those two variables connected? ·5· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry? ·6· · · · Q.· ·Are those two variables basically connected? ·7· ·Are they related to each other, the number of detained ·8· ·immigrants inside the facility to the number of guards ·9· ·that you must employ?· They have to be, right? 10· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 11· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It depends on the - the number 12· · · · and how ICE wants them housed, so -- It just 13· · · · depends on the requirements of the - of the client 14· · · · in this case. 15· ·BY MR. FREE: 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 17· · · · · · ·How is it that there could be an additional -18· ·Strike that. 19· · · · · · ·How is it that the number of food service 20· ·employees stays the same between both plans? 21· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 22· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know. 23· ·BY MR. FREE: 24· · · · Q.· ·You have no idea? 25· · · · A.· ·I don't. Page 134 ·1· · · · Q.· ·How is GEO able to provide potentially almost ·2· ·five hundred more meals without paying any additional ·3· ·people? ·4· · · · A.· ·I don't know. ·5· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object - object to form. ·6· ·BY MR. FREE: ·7· · · · Q.· ·You don't know? ·8· · · · · · ·What do you think? ·9· · · · A.· ·I don't know. 10· · · · Q.· ·Who prepares the meals at Adelanto? 11· · · · A.· ·I don't know. 12· · · · Q.· ·You told me earlier that there are detainees 13· ·in the food service area, didn't you? 14· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form, vague. 15· ·BY MR. FREE: 16· · · · Q.· ·Are there detainees in the food service area 17· ·at Adelanto? 18· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· The same objection. 19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 20· ·BY MR. FREE: 21· · · · Q.· ·Yes. 22· · · · · · ·What are they doing there? 23· · · · A.· ·That I don't know. 24· · · · Q.· ·What do you think they're doing there? 25· · · · A.· ·I don't know. Page 135 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Really? ·2· · · · · · ·I mean I'm not trying to be difficult -·3· · · · A.· ·I know. ·4· · · · Q.· ·-- with you, honestly. ·5· · · · · · ·You're saying -·6· · · · A.· ·You're asking me -·7· · · · Q.· ·-- to me you have no idea what - what a ·8· ·detainee is doing in the kitchen? ·9· · · · A.· ·I don't know what -10· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Objection. 11· ·BY MR. FREE: 12· · · · Q.· ·They're not for recreation, are they? 13· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Hang on a second. 14· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· Okay.· Sorry. 15· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Yeah, let's not - let's not be 16· · · · argumentative. 17· ·BY MR. FREE: 18· · · · Q.· ·You - you have - you do not know, you have no 19· ·idea, let me just say that, do you have any idea what a 20· ·detained immigrant at Adelanto would be doing in the 21· ·food service area at that facility? 22· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form, vague, and I 23· · · · don't know what a food service area means. 24· ·BY MR. FREE: 25· · · · Q.· ·Let's -- This is GEO's staffing plan, right? Page 136 ·1· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry? ·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay, answer my first question.· You don't ·3· ·have any idea what a detained immigrant at Adelanto ·4· ·would be doing in the food service area? ·5· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Yeah, and objection, vague, ·6· · · · asked and answered about a thousand times. ·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't have any firsthand ·8· · · · knowledge what they're - they're doing. ·9· ·BY MR. FREE: 10· · · · Q.· ·That's not what I asked.· I asked if you had 11· ·any idea. 12· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· And same objections. 13· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't. 14· ·BY MR. FREE: 15· · · · Q.· ·Have you been in the food service area at 16· ·Adelanto? 17· · · · A.· ·Yes. 18· · · · Q.· ·What did you see there? 19· · · · A.· ·I saw people in the food service area 20· ·performing cleaning, mopping, not -- I didn't actually 21· ·see any meals being served at the time, so it was very 22· ·early in the day. 23· · · · Q.· ·What time? 24· · · · A.· ·Around 10:00 a.m. 25· · · · Q.· ·Who - who were the people? 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 36 of 81 Page ID #:2493 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 137–140 Page 137 ·1· · · · A.· ·I -- Both GEO employees and immigration ·2· ·detainees. ·3· · · · Q.· ·Could you tell them apart? ·4· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·5· · · · Q.· ·How? ·6· · · · A.· ·By their uniforms. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Who was mopping? ·8· · · · A.· ·The detainees. ·9· · · · Q.· ·What were the GEO employees doing as you 10· ·recall? 11· · · · A.· ·Working in the kitchen. 12· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so you do have some idea what the 13· ·detainees are doing in the food service area? 14· · · · A.· ·I can tell you what I saw. 15· · · · Q.· ·Please do. 16· · · · A.· ·That's what I saw.· They were in the - the 17· ·kitchen area, you say food service area, and they were 18· ·performing some tasks. 19· · · · Q.· ·Anything other than mopping that you saw them 20· ·do? 21· · · · A.· ·No.· I don't recall any specific activities. 22· · · · Q.· ·Did you tell me that it wasn't during a meal 23· ·service? 24· · · · A.· ·Right.· It wasn't during a meal service. 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay, did you see any GEO guards there? Page 138 Page 139 ·1· ·specific but, yeah, it's where they dine, where they ·2· ·have their meals. ·3· · · · Q.· ·The same thing though, right? ·4· · · · A.· ·The same thing. ·5· · · · Q.· ·We're talking about the same -·6· · · · A.· ·Sure. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay, did you see any detainees working in the ·8· ·dining hall? ·9· · · · A.· ·No.· There was no one in the dining hall at 10· ·the time I was there. 11· · · · Q.· ·So it was empty? 12· · · · A.· ·Yes. 13· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 14· · · · · · ·Is there anything else that a food service 15· ·line item could encompass other than the kitchen and the 16· ·dining hall? 17· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know. 19· ·BY MR. FREE: 20· · · · Q.· ·Can I just -- I'm just going to put -- I'm 21· ·going to be really honest with you.· I have a hard time 22· ·understanding how GEO and how you can put together a per 23· ·diem rate for these facilities without knowing the 24· ·activities in each area and what the detention officers 25· ·are doing there.· I just don't - I don't understand why ·1· · · · A.· ·Yes. Page 140 ·1· ·you don't know that, and I'm not being argumentative. ·2· · · · Q.· ·What were they doing? ·2· ·I'm just asking you like it would seem to me that you ·3· · · · A.· ·Supervising, providing security. ·3· ·saw people working in the kitchen, right? ·4· · · · Q.· ·As you read GEO's staffing plan that it ·4· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·5· ·developed and submitted to ICE and that ICE agreed to in ·5· · · · Q.· ·You said - you told me you saw people work ·6· ·this modification and you say the food service area part ·6· ·being in the kitchen? ·7· ·of the detention officer section I'm talking about row ·7· · · · A.· ·I saw people, yes, in there. ·8· ·130 on page 1838.· Do you see that? ·8· · · · Q.· ·And so GEO knows that detainees work there? ·9· · · · A.· ·Yep. ·9· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 10· · · · Q.· ·What do you understand food service to refer 10· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So there are people within GEO 11· ·to? 11· · · · who know what the activities are who participate in 12· · · · A.· ·The kitchen, the cafeteria and I guess the 12· · · · putting together the staffing plans and develop the 13· ·ability to provide meals outside of that area as well. 13· · · · cost.· I am not one of those individuals, so I'm -- 14· · · · Q.· ·Okay, did you see any cafeterias while you 14· · · · Basically I'm an outside observer watching what 15· ·were there in February? 15· · · · happens there, but I don't know how they put it 16· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry? 16· · · · together, I don't know what they're supposed to be 17· · · · Q.· ·Did you see any cafeterias while you were at 17· · · · doing, when they're supposed to be doing it.· It's 18· ·Adelanto in February? 18· · · · just not my area of expertise in the company. 19· · · · A.· ·There was a dining hall. 19· ·BY MR. FREE: 20· · · · Q.· ·So the answer to my question is yes? 20· · · · Q.· ·All right, I think I understand. 21· · · · A.· ·Well, if a cafeteria and a dining hall are the 21· · · · · · ·You're telling me, tell me if I'm right here, 22· ·same thing then yes. 22· ·that I'm asking you questions about what you don't have 23· · · · Q.· ·You used the term cafeteria, so I'm just 23· ·personal knowledge? 24· ·trying to understand what you mean. 24· · · · A.· ·Correct, or no responsibility or no 25· · · · A.· ·So I'm just being -- Yeah, I'm not being as 25· ·participation. 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 37 of 81 Page ID #:2494 Page 141 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay, can you help me understand who at GEO ·2· ·would know that? ·3· · · · A.· ·There are people in Operations that know ·4· ·exactly what - what staffings are required based on ·5· ·facilities, the facility layout, the contract ·6· ·requirements. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Who at - who at GEO within the Operations ·8· ·Department would be responsible for knowing that at ·9· ·Adelanto? 10· · · · A.· ·Certainly the Facility Administrator. 11· · · · Q.· ·Was that James Janecka? 12· · · · A.· ·Yes. 13· · · · Q.· ·Okay, anybody else? 14· · · · A.· ·I think all of the - the management team at 15· ·the facility, the Deputy Facility Administrator and 16· ·maybe the business manager. 17· · · · Q.· ·What are their names? 18· · · · A.· ·I don't -- I don't know. 19· · · · Q.· ·Do the people that you've just named come up 20· ·with the staffing plan? 21· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to form. 22· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know their level of 23· · · · participation in it. 24· ·BY MR. FREE: 25· · · · Q.· ·Who at GEO approves this before giving it to Page 142 ·1· ·ICE, this staffing plan that I'm holding?· These are ·2· ·the -- Thirteen. ·3· · · · A.· ·That would be the - Senior Vice-President of ·4· ·Operations. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Who is that? ·6· · · · A.· ·Currently that is David Donahue. ·7· · · · Q.· ·All right, I appreciate you clarifying. ·8· · · · · · ·What I think you've told me is that I'm asking ·9· ·you questions about this staffing plan that you don't 10· ·have personal knowledge of in your role as Senior 11· ·Vice-President for Business Development.· Did I 12· ·understand your answers correctly? 13· · · · A.· ·That is correct. 14· · · · Q.· · . 15· · · · · · · 16· · 17· · 18· · · · · · · 19· · 20· · 21· · 22· · · · A.· · 23· · · · Q.· ·And is it James Donahue and potentially the 24· ·Facility Administrator, James Janecka in Operations? 25· ·Anybody else?· Are those two of the people that we Page 143 ·1· ·should talk to? ·2· · · · A.· ·They would have, one, the responsibility and, ·3· ·two, the expertise and the knowledge. ·4· · · · Q.· ·Anybody else? ·5· · · · A.· ·There are a lot of people who probably possess ·6· ·that.· I don't -- Again I don't know who participates in ·7· ·that process. ·8· · · · Q.· ·All right, but you -- I mean I understand that ·9· ·it would be part of your role to know whether GEO's 10· ·going to make money off a contract, right? 11· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Objection to form. 12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· You know, I don't know, so when 13· · · · you qualify an opportunity I look at more of are we 14· · · · able to provide those services then after we 15· · · · qualify that then folks in Operations in other 16· · · · parts of the company determine whether or not 17· · · · it's - it's viable from a financial perspective, so 18· · · · I don't have that financial expertise.· My job is 19· · · · simply to qualify and determine whether or not this 20· · · · is an opportunity the company should pursue.· After 21· · · · a contract's awarded I have no involvement, no role 22· · · · in the operations or the administration of the 23· · · · contract.· I move on to the next business 24· · · · development opportunity, so that's why I can't 25· · · · answer a lot of these questions. Page 144 ·1· ·BY MR. FREE: ·2· · · · Q.· ·I appreciate that. ·3· · · · · · ·I want to make sure I understand some lingo ·4· ·that I think I just heard you use.· The verb was qualify ·5· ·and the noun was opportunity.· What do you mean by ·6· ·qualify? ·7· · · · A.· ·Well, it is -- So you may read something that ·8· ·suggests that there is a need for bed space somewhere ·9· ·whether it's at the Federal, State or local level and so 10· ·you try to find out whether or not that is a valid 11· ·opportunity.· Somebody may have a need but they don't 12· ·have the funding, they don't have the ability to procure 13· ·it and so once we go through all of that and determine, 14· ·yeah, there may be a need but there's no ability to 15· ·to proceed with a procurement then we back off.· If 16· ·there is the ability then we'll find out, okay, well, 17· ·when do you think it's going to be an opportunity, so 18· ·that's what I mean by qualify. 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and what's an opportunity? 20· · · · A.· ·Again the opportunity to either deliver a 21· ·facility, build a facility and deliver the services that 22· ·we provide to our government providers. 23· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 24· · · · · · ·Are the Operations people that you've 25· ·described to me in conjunction with the Chief Financial Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 38 of 81 Page ID #:2495 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume I June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 145–146 Page 145 ·1· ·Officer the folks at GEO who are responsible for ·2· ·developing the per diem rate? ·3· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·4· ·BY MR. FREE: ·5· · · · Q.· ·Or is that you? ·6· · · · A.· ·No.· I do not develop the per diem rate. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Do you know how it's developed? ·8· · · · A.· ·I do not.· Not specifically. ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay, you don't have personal knowledge of 10· ·like the factors that go into it? 11· · · · A.· ·I do not. 12· · · · Q.· ·Okay, you don't -- And I'm not just talking 13· ·about once the contract's -- Let me be clear.· I'm not 14· ·just talking about once the contract has been agreed to, 15· ·once the opportunity's been seized, right?· I'm also 16· ·talking about proposals.· Is it the same answer as to 17· ·proposals? 18· · · · A.· ·Right.· It's - pricing is not within my area 19· ·of responsibility, so I don't know how that is 20· ·developed. 21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I understand. 22· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· Did we order lunch? 23· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Yes. 24· · · · · · ·Lunch?· The short answer's yes. 25· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· It's not here though? Page 146 ·1· · · · MR. DONOHUE:· It may be here. ·2· · · · MS. ARMSTRONG:· It's probably here. ·3· · · · MR. DONOHUE:· It's probably here. ·4· · · · I'm speculating. ·5· · · · MR. FREE:· I think we might be at like a ·6· ·like a pivot point, but I don't - what I don't want ·7· ·to do is I don't want to go off the record and then ·8· ·wait for lunch because I don't want to keep the ·9· ·witness here longer than he needs to be, so I can 10· ·move to the next section. 11· · · · MR. DONOHUE:· Well, why don't we take -12· · · · MS. ARMSTRONG:· Take twenty seconds to check 13· ·if it's here. 14· · · · MR. FREE:· Let's do it. 15· · · · THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· We are going off the video 16· ·record 12:04 p.m. 17 18· · · · (Whereupon, there was a lunch recess observed) 19 20 21· · · · · · · (CONTINUED TO VOLUME II) 22 23 24 25 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 39 of 81 Page ID #:2496 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 147–150 Page 149 Page 147 ·1· ·2 ·3· ·4· ·5· ·6 · · ·7 · · ·8 ·9· · · 10· · · 11· · · 12· · · 13 14 15 16· · · 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 · · · · · · · · · · · · · INDEX ·1· · · ·2· ·3· ·4· · · ·5· ·6· · · ·7 · · ·8 · · ·9· 10 11 12 13· 14 · · 15 · · 16· · · 17· 18 19 20 21 22 · · 23· · · 24· · · 25 · · · · · · · ·UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT · · · · · · · CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA · · · · · · · · · · ·EASTERN DIVISION · · · · · · CIVIL ACTION NO. 5:17-cv-02514-JGB ·RAUL NOVOA and JAIME CAMPOS FUENTES, ·individually and on behalf of all ·others similarly situated, · · · · · · · · · · ·Plaintiffs, ·vs. ·1· ·2 · · ·3 · · ·4· · · ·5· · · ·6· · · ·7· ·8 ·9· · · 10· · · 11· · · 12· 13 14 · · 15 · · 16· · · 17· · · 18· · · 19· · · 20 21· · · 22· 23 24 25 ·APPEARANCES: ·1· · · · · · · · · (CONTINUED FROM VOLUME I) ·APPEARING ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS: ·2 ·THE GEO GROUP, INC., · · · · · · · · · · ·Defendant, ·_____________________________________/ · · · ·VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DAVID J. VENTURELLA · · · · · · · · ·VOLUME II, PAGES 147-315 · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · THURSDAY, JUNE 13th, 2019 ·515 EAST LAS OLAS BOULEVARD, SUITE 1200 · · · · ·FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA · · · · · 9:03 a.m. - 5:40 p.m. ·STENOGRAPHICALLY REPORTED BY: ·VALERIE LEHTO, REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER ·NOTARY PUBLIC, STATE OF FLORIDA ·ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES ·FORT LAUDERDALE OFFICE ·WITNESS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE ·DAVID J. VENTURELLA ·DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED BY MR. FREE· · · · · 150 · · · · · · · · · · INDEX TO EXHIBITS ·EXHIBITS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE ·EXHIBIT ·EXHIBIT ·EXHIBIT ·EXHIBIT ·EXHIBIT ·EXHIBIT ·EXHIBIT ·EXHIBIT 14· 15· 16· 17· 18· 19· 20· 21· ·2/14/18 LETTER· · · · · · · · · · · ·170 ·5/30/18 LETTER· · · · · · · · · · · ·211 ·6/21/18 LETTER· · · · · · · · · · · ·212 ·DECLARATION· · · · · · · · · · · · · 216 ·SUPPLEMENTAL DECLARATION· · · · · · ·245 ·DECLARATION· · · · · · · · · · · · · 267 ·1/18/19 AURORA REPORT· · · · · · · · 275 ·1/18/19 GEO STATEMENT/WEBSITE· · · · 275 · · ·(PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS REFERENCED RAGSDALE ·EXHIBIT 2) Page 150 Page 148 · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · BURNS, CHAREST, LLP. BY:· DANIEL H. CHAREST, ESQUIRE. BY:· LYDIA A. WRIGHT, ESQUIRE. 365 CANAL STREET, SUITE 1170 NEW ORLEANS, LOUISIANA· 70130 (504) 799-2845 dcharest@burnscharest.com lwright@burnscharest.com · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · LAW OFFICE OF R. ANDREW FREE. BY:· R. ANDREW FREE, ESQUIRE. BY:· HENRIETTE VINET-MARTIN, ESQUIRE. 2004 8th AVENUE SOUTH NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE 37204 (844) 321-3221 andrew@immigrantvivilrights.com ·3· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· We are back on the video ·4· · · · record 1:06 p.m. ·5 ·6· · · · · · · · ·DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED ·7· ·BY MR. FREE: ·8· · · · Q.· ·Mr. Venturella, what did you do to prepare for ·9· ·today's deposition? 10· · · · · · ·Please don't tell me anything you've discussed 11· ·with your attorneys. 12· · · · A.· ·Actually very little to prepare other than 13· ·having my discussion with the attorneys here. 14· · · · Q.· ·Okay, did you look at any documents? ·APPEARING ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT: 15· · · · A.· ·Outside of the preparation with my attorneys? · · · · · · · · · 16· · · · Q.· ·During your preparation. · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · HOLLAND & KNIGHT. BY:· J. MATTHEW DONOHUE, ESQUIRE. BY:· SHANNON L. ARMSTRONG, ESQUIRE. 111 SOUTHWEST FIFTH AVENUE 2300 U.S. BANCORP TOWER PORTLAND, OREGON· 97204 (503) 517-2913 shannon.armstrong@hklaw.com matt.donohue@hklaw.com ·ALSO PRESENT:· FRANCES E. SIMKINS · · · · · · · · U.S. IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT · · · · · · · · DON SAVOY/VIDEOGRAPHER 17· · · · A.· ·During, yes. 18· · · · Q.· ·Which documents do you recall looking at? 19· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· I'm going to instruct him not to 20· · · · answer.· You're not entitled to learn the documents 21· · · · he looked at in prep with the attorneys. 22· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· I'm not sure that that's true, but 23· · · · you've made your instruction. 24· ·BY MR. FREE: 25· · · · Q.· ·Did you speak with anybody other than your 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 40 of 81 Page ID #:2497 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 151–154 Page 151 ·1· ·attorneys in preparation for today's deposition? ·2· · · · A.· ·No. ·3· · · · Q.· ·Prior to speaking with your attorneys did you ·4· ·have any knowledge about this lawsuit, the Novoa case ·5· ·versus GEO and Adelanto? ·6· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·7· · · · Q.· ·What did you know about this lawsuit before ·8· ·speaking with your attorneys? ·9· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· And I'm going to -- I assume 10· · · · that you don't want him to divulge anything he 11· · · · learned from any attorney about those lawsuits. 12· · · · · · ·In other words, if he learned information from 13· · · · an attorney then -- Well, let me instruct you I 14· · · · don't want you to divulge that information. 15· ·BY MR. FREE: 16· · · · Q.· ·Please answer the question. 17· · · · A.· ·So all of the information that I received was 18· ·from our counsel. 19· · · · Q.· ·Who's our? 20· · · · A.· ·The GEO, general counsel. 21· · · · Q.· ·Who's that? 22· · · · A.· ·The particular individual currently is Joseph 23· ·Negron. 24· · · · Q.· ·When you say current, does that imply there 25· ·was somebody before that? Page 152 ·1· · · · A.· ·That is correct. ·2· · · · Q.· ·Who was that? ·3· · · · A.· ·John Bulfin. ·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·5· · · · A.· ·B-u-l-f-i-n. ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and so everything that you know about ·7· ·this lawsuit is based on communications with those two ·8· ·attorneys or their staff, their legal staff; is that ·9· ·right? 10· · · · A.· ·Correct. 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay, none of what you know about this lawsuit 12· ·is based on any communications with non attorneys at 13· ·GEO; is that correct? 14· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat that? 15· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· Can you read it back, please. 16· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, the requested portion of the 17· ·record was read back). 18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I think that's correct. 19· ·BY MR. FREE: 20· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever discussed the litigation with 21· ·any non attorney, this - this litigation in this case? 22· · · · A.· ·No. 23· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever discussed this litigation or 24· ·communicated about this litigation with anybody who's 25· ·not your lawyer? Page 153 ·1· · · · A.· ·No. ·2· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever received communications about ·3· ·this litigation from anyone who's not your lawyer? ·4· · · · A.· ·No. ·5· · · · Q.· ·What do you understand to be the Plaintiff's ·6· ·claims without revealing anything that your lawyer's ·7· ·told you to your own understanding to be what's the ·8· ·the core of the Plaintiff's claim in these cases or in ·9· ·this case? 10· · · · A.· ·My understanding is that the - the Plaintiffs 11· ·believed that GEO should be paying detainees minimum 12· ·wage based on the State minimum wage laws. 13· · · · Q.· ·Anything else? 14· · · · A.· ·That we're in violation of the trafficking, 15· ·Federal trafficking statutes. 16· · · · Q.· ·Anything else? 17· · · · A.· ·And something that I don't understand, unjust 18· ·enrichment, so whatever that is. 19· · · · Q.· ·Anything else? 20· · · · A.· ·No. 21· · · · Q.· ·Okay, have you received any communications, 22· ·and I don't care if they're attorneys, but 23· ·communications from people at ICE outside the presence 24· ·of your lawyers about this litigation? 25· · · · A.· ·About this litigation, no. Page 154 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay, have you had any communications with ·2· ·anyone at ICE regarding the voluntary work program that ·3· ·GEO operates at the Adelanto Detention Center? ·4· · · · A.· ·Not for the Adelanto Detention Facility, no. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Have you had any communications, lawyers or no ·6· ·from ICE outside the presence of your counsel about the ·7· ·voluntary work program lawsuits at other facilities? ·8· · · · A.· ·We've had -- Yes.· We've had communications ·9· ·with ICE about the - the other lawsuits. 10· · · · Q.· ·Who's we? 11· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· That would be myself, John Bulfin, 12· ·George Zoley, Amber Martin and Louis Carrillo. 13· · · · Q.· ·With whom at ICE did you speak? 14· · · · A.· ·We spoke to Tom Homan, Tom Blank, Mike Davis, 15· ·Mike Davidson and there was other individuals present, 16· ·but I don't recall who they were. 17· · · · Q.· ·Was this one meeting or more than one meeting? 18· · · · A.· ·That was one meeting. 19· · · · Q.· ·What is Thomas Homan's position at ICE at the 20· ·time that you had these conversations? 21· · · · A.· ·He was the Acting Director or Acting 22· ·Secretary.· I'm not sure which was -23· · · · Q.· ·For Immigration and Customs Enforcement? 24· · · · A.· ·Correct. 25· · · · Q.· ·How about Mr. Blank? 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 41 of 81 Page ID #:2498 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 155–158 Page 155 ·1· · · · A.· ·He was the Chief of Staff. ·2· · · · Q.· ·When did that meeting occur? ·3· · · · A.· ·Sometime in 2018. ·4· · · · Q.· ·Where did it occur? ·5· · · · A.· ·At the ICE headquarters. ·6· · · · Q.· ·In Washington D.C.? ·7· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· In Washington D.C. ·8· · · · Q.· ·What was the purpose of that meeting? ·9· · · · A.· ·To discuss our request for an equitable 10· ·adjustment regarding the legal expenses defending the 11· ·lawsuits regarding the voluntary work program that 12· ·the violation of the trafficking laws. 13· · · · Q.· ·Anything else? 14· · · · A.· ·At that meeting? 15· · · · Q.· ·Yes, sir. 16· · · · A.· ·No.· It was the primary focus of the meeting. 17· · · · Q.· ·Were there any secondary focuses? 18· · · · A.· ·Not that I recall. 19· · · · Q.· ·Were there any meetings after that meeting 20· ·that you had with any official at ICE? 21· · · · A.· ·Regarding this lawsuit? 22· · · · Q.· ·Yes, sir. 23· · · · A.· ·No. 24· · · · Q.· ·Or these - the voluntary work program 25· ·litigation? Page 157 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Can you look at Exhibit One in front of you, ·2· ·please. ·3· · · · A.· ·One? ·4· · · · Q.· ·Yes, please. ·5· · · · A.· ·Okay. ·6· · · · Q.· ·If you could turn to 473, please.· Do you see ·7· ·a paragraph marked 20.1 with the heading ·8· ·Indemnification? ·9· · · · A.· ·Yes. 10· · · · Q.· ·It reads, "GEO agrees to indemnify and hold 11· ·harmless the City and ICE, their officers, agents 12· ·employee and their assigns from and against."· Correct? 13· ·Did I read that correctly? 14· · · · A.· ·You did. 15· · · · Q.· ·It lists six claims or demands arising from or 16· ·related to things.· Do you see those six - those six 17· ·enumerated types of things? 18· · · · A.· ·Yes. 19· · · · Q.· ·Do you see the sixth one?· It's Roman vi. 20· · · · A.· ·Yes. 21· · · · Q.· ·"Any claim of any kind by or on behalf of any 22· ·detainee or former detainee detained under GEO's 23· ·supervision and arising from detainee's treatment, 24· ·conditions of custody, care, property or any other claim 25· ·arising from confinement of any detainee in the Page 156 Page 158 ·1· ·facility."· Have I read that correctly? ·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay, were there subsequent communications ·2· · · · A.· ·You have. ·3· ·between you or anyone at GEO that you're aware of at ICE ·3· · · · Q.· ·The paragraph below reads, "GEO shall be ·4· ·regarding the voluntary work program lawsuits? ·4· ·responsible for all costs, including but not limited to ·5· · · · A.· ·I'm not aware of any specific communications. ·5· ·attorney's fees, expenses incurred and liabilities ·6· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember anything generally? ·6· ·arising from any claim, demand, action, litigation, ·7· · · · A.· ·Well, we did make a request for an equitable ·7· ·lawsuit or other proceeding related to the management ·8· ·adjustment at the time of that meeting, so we were ·8· ·and operation of the facility."· Have I read that ·9· ·awaiting a response back from ICE, but I do not know ·9· ·correctly? 10· ·what the response was -10· · · · A.· ·Yes. 11· · · · Q.· ·Do you -11· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you recall the basis of the request 12· · · · A.· ·-- because it wasn't directed to me.· It was 12· ·for the equitable adjustment? 13· ·directed to Amber Martin who's the head of Contract 13· · · · A.· ·I don't. 14· ·Administration. 14· · · · Q.· ·Do you agree that in this paragraph GEO has 15· · · · Q.· ·What was the basis for the equitable 15· ·accepted indemnification of ICE and the City regarding 16· ·adjustment again? 16· ·any claim of any kind brought by a detainee? 17· · · · A.· ·The legal expenses that were incurred in 17· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 18· ·defending the lawsuits. 18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm not a lawyer but, yes, I 19· · · · Q.· ·And you don't know whether ICE has approved or 19· · · · would say that that language does that. 20· ·made a decision on the equitable adjustments? 20· ·BY MR. FREE: 21· · · · A.· ·I don't have any firsthand knowledge of what 21· · · · Q.· ·Do you agree that GEO pursuant to this 22· ·that outcome was. 22· ·paragraph is responsible for all costs, including 23· · · · Q.· ·Can you look at Exhibit One, please, that's in 23· ·attorney's fees? 24· ·front of you. 24· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 25· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry? 25· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know. ·1· · · · A.· ·No. 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 42 of 81 Page ID #:2499 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 159–162 Page 159 Page 161 ·1· ·BY MR. FREE: ·1· · · · A.· ·The GEO representatives and the ICE ·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay, but's that's what it says, right? ·2· ·representatives. ·3· · · · A.· ·That's what I read. ·3· · · · Q.· ·Which GEO representatives? ·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you as you sit here today have any ·4· · · · A.· ·John Bulfin primarily, maybe Louis Carrillo. ·5· ·understanding of why -- First of all, let me back up. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Anybody else? ·6· · · · · · ·Did you discuss the indemnification provision ·6· · · · A.· ·I don't recall. ·7· ·of this or any other contract involving the voluntary ·7· · · · Q.· ·Which ICE representatives participated in that ·8· ·work program litigation during your meeting in D.C. with ·8· ·part of the discussions? ·9· ·ICE? ·9· · · · · · ·THE COURT REPORTER:· I'm sorry? 10· · · · A.· ·No. 10· ·BY MR. FREE: 11· · · · Q.· ·In any communications that you're aware of 11· · · · Q.· ·Which ICE representatives participated in that 12· ·between GEO and ICE has the indemnification provision of 12· ·part of the discussion to your recollection? 13· ·any contract been raised? 13· · · · A.· ·I don't recall. 14· · · · A.· ·Not to my knowledge. 14· · · · Q.· ·Did Thomas Homan speak? 15· · · · Q.· ·Okay, what was ICE's response during that 15· · · · A.· ·He did. 16· ·meeting to the equitable adjustment request, if you 16· · · · Q.· ·What do you remember him saying? 17· ·recall? 17· · · · A.· ·I think he was the one who said that they 18· · · · A.· ·That they would review the request and provide 18· ·would review the request and someone from ICE will get 19· ·a response back. 19· ·back to GEO. 20· · · · Q.· ·How long did the meeting last? 20· · · · Q.· ·Anything else? 21· · · · A.· ·An hour. 21· · · · A.· ·I don't recall. 22· · · · Q.· ·Who spoke? 22· · · · Q.· ·Did anyone during this meeting ask ICE whether 23· · · · A.· ·Everyone. 23· ·the Agency thought GEO was breaking the law? 24· · · · Q.· ·You included? 24· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat that? 25· · · · A.· ·Yes. 25· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· Can you read that back, please. Page 160 ·1· · · · Q.· ·What did you say? ·2· · · · A.· ·I don't recall. ·3· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall anything about what you said? ·4· · · · A.· ·Sure.· I thanked them for taking the time to ·5· ·meet with us, but I mean I don't remember specific ·6· ·discussions of what I said. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember specific discussions of what ·8· ·anybody said? ·9· · · · A.· ·No, I don't. 10· · · · · · ·Primarily John Bulfin, our general counsel, 11· ·was the one leading some of that discussion, but I - I 12· ·don't recall the specifics. 13· · · · Q.· ·Which part of the discussion did Mr. Bulfin 14· ·lead? 15· · · · A.· ·I don't recall. 16· · · · Q.· ·Can you tell me everything you do recall about 17· ·the substance of those discussions as you sit - you sit 18· ·here today, please? 19· · · · A.· ·What I recall in general is that we presented 20· ·the letter, they discussed aspects of the case, aspects 21· ·of why - why we were issuing or making this request. 22· · · · · · ·That's about all I recall. 23· · · · Q.· ·Who's they? 24· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry? 25· · · · Q.· ·Who's they?· You said they discussed aspects. Page 162 ·1· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, the requested portion of the ·2· ·record was read back). ·3· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't recall anybody asking ·4· · · · that question. ·5· ·BY MR. FREE: ·6· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall anyone discussing ICE's position ·7· ·regarding whether GEO is breaking the law? ·8· · · · A.· ·No. ·9· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall anyone discussing changes that 10· ·GEO would have to make in the performance of its 11· ·contracts with ICE if the Plaintiffs in any of these 12· ·lawsuits are successful? 13· · · · A.· ·No. 14· · · · Q.· ·Do you think that that could have been 15· ·discussed but that you might not remember it as you sit 16· ·here today? 17· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I do not believe that was 19· · · · discussed. 20· ·BY MR. FREE: 21· · · · Q.· ·Okay, you have no specific recollection of it 22· ·being discussed? 23· · · · A.· ·No, sir. 24· · · · Q.· ·Are you aware of any changes that GEO would 25· ·have to make in its performance of contracts in the 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 43 of 81 Page ID #:2500 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 163–166 Page 163 ·1· ·we'll go about this case. ·1· ·event of the Plaintiffs succeeding in any of these Page 165 ·2· ·lawsuits? ·2· · · · A.· ·No. ·3· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·4· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I am not. ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay, how often were you speaking with ·5· ·BY MR. FREE: ·6· · · · Q.· ·Did anyone outside of ICE attend that meeting ·5· · · · A.· ·I don't know.· The best of my recollection a ·7· ·other than GEO employees? ·8· · · · A.· ·No. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay, did you have a way to contact him ·9· · · · Q.· ·Nobody from the Department of Justice? 10· · · · A.· ·No. ·9· ·through staff? 11· · · · Q.· ·Nobody from the Department of Homeland 12· ·Security's Executive Office? 11· · · · Q.· ·At his office or on his cell phone? 13· · · · A.· ·No. 14· · · · Q.· ·Have there been any discussions that you are 13· · · · Q.· ·Did he have a way to contact you directly? ·4· ·Mr. Homan when he was employed with ICE, approximately? ·6· ·few times.· Not often. ·8· ·directly when he was at ICE or did you have to go 10· · · · A.· ·No.· I could contact him directly. 12· · · · A.· ·Both. 14· · · · A.· ·Yes. 15· ·aware of between the Secretary of Homeland Security's 15· · · · Q.· ·On - at your office or on your cell phone? 16· · · · A.· ·Both. 16· ·Office and GEO regarding the voluntary work program 17· ·litigation you discussed with ICE in that meeting? 18· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat the question? 17· · · · Q.· ·Did you all message or call each other at all 19· · · · · · ·I'm sorry. 19· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 20· · · · Q.· ·It's okay. 21· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, the requested portion of the 20· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· We've had communication, sure. 22· ·record was read back). 23· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Not that I'm aware of. 22· · · · Q.· ·Have any of those been in writing? 24· ·BY MR. FREE: 25· · · · Q.· ·Did you take any notes during that meeting? 24· · · · Q.· ·Anything else? Page 164 ·1· · · · A.· ·No. ·2· · · · Q.· ·Did anyone take any notes during that meeting? ·3· · · · A.· ·I don't know. ·4· · · · Q.· ·Did you observe anybody with a notepad during ·5· ·that meeting? ·6· · · · A.· ·I did not. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Did you observe anyone with an open laptop ·8· ·during that meeting? ·9· · · · A.· ·No. 10· · · · Q.· ·Were there any communications that you 11· ·received after that meeting from other GEO officials 12· ·regarding the meeting? 13· · · · A.· ·Not that I'm aware of, no. 14· · · · Q.· ·Who asked for the meeting? 15· · · · A.· ·I made the formal request. 16· · · · Q.· ·How did you do that? 17· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry? 18· · · · Q.· ·How did you do that? 19· · · · A.· ·E-mail, a phone call probably. 20· · · · Q.· ·To whom? 21· · · · A.· ·To Mr. Homan. 22· · · · Q.· ·Okay, was that the first time that you had 23· ·spoken with Mr. Homan on behalf of GEO? 24· · · · A.· ·About this case? 25· · · · Q.· ·Just generally.· We'll start there and then 18· ·regarding your work with GEO? 21· ·BY MR. FREE: 23· · · · A.· ·There may have been e-mails. 25· · · · A.· ·Text messages. Page 166 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Anything else? ·2· · · · A.· ·No. ·3· · · · Q.· ·Do you use an encrypted text application? ·4· · · · A.· ·No. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Do you know if Mr. Homan used an encrypted ·6· ·text application? ·7· · · · A.· ·I do not. ·8· · · · Q.· ·Do you know what Good is, G-o-o-d for ·9· ·BlackBerry? 10· · · · A.· ·I do not. 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay, have you had any of your subordinates or 12· ·staffers communicating with Mr. Homan on your behalf or 13· ·any of his staffers on his behalf? 14· · · · · · ·Sure.· I'm sorry. 15· · · · · · ·Have you had anybody who works for you reach 16· ·out to anyone who works for Mr. Homan to communicate 17· ·regarding GEO's relationship with ICE or the 18· ·contracting? 19· · · · A.· ·No. 20· · · · Q.· ·No? 21· · · · A.· ·My subordinate staff? 22· · · · Q.· ·Uh-huh.· Yeah. 23· · · · A.· ·No. 24· · · · Q.· ·Is it fair to say you two have dealt with each 25· ·other directly? 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 44 of 81 Page ID #:2501 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 167–170 Page 167 ·1· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· That's - I'm just making sure. ·3· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I understand. ·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Thanks. ·5· · · · · · ·What time was the meeting? ·6· · · · A.· ·What time was the meeting? ·7· · · · Q.· ·Uh-huh. ·8· · · · A.· ·You know, I don't recall. ·9· · · · Q.· ·Was it in the morning or the afternoon? 10· · · · A.· ·I honestly don't recall. 11· · · · Q.· ·Did you fly up for the meeting? 12· · · · A.· ·Yes, we did. 13· · · · Q.· ·How far in advance did you arrive? 14· · · · A.· ·I don't recall.· I don't recall if we went a 15· ·day in advance or the morning of. 16· · · · Q.· ·Did you meet at 12th Street Southwest, the ICE 17· ·headquarters? 18· · · · A.· ·Yes. 19· · · · Q.· ·Did you log in when you met? 20· · · · A.· ·Yes. 21· · · · Q.· ·Did you sign your name? 22· · · · A.· ·Yes. 23· · · · Q.· ·Did you log out when you left? 24· · · · A.· ·Yes. 25· · · · Q.· ·Do you know if the other GEO officials did as Page 169 ·1· · · · A.· ·Where did I stay?· I don't know if we -- Like ·2· ·I said, I can't recall if we went the night before or if ·3· ·we flew up and flew out - flew back the same day. ·4· · · · Q.· ·How did you fly up there? ·5· · · · A.· ·On a plane. ·6· · · · Q.· ·Was it a commercial jet or private jet? ·7· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry? ·8· · · · Q.· ·Was it a commercial jet, a private plane? ·9· · · · A.· ·I'm trying to remember. 10· · · · · · ·I think it's possibly private. 11· · · · Q.· ·Is it possible that you stayed at the Old Post 12· ·Office, the Trump Hotel while you were there? 13· · · · A.· ·If we stayed overnight?· Yes. 14· · · · Q.· ·Is it possible that in addition to staying 15· ·there you went there?· Whether you did or not, did you 16· ·go to that hotel when you were there? 17· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't recall. 19· ·BY MR. FREE: 20· · · · Q.· ·Have you been there before? 21· · · · A.· ·To the Trump Hotel? 22· · · · Q.· ·Uh-huh. 23· · · · A.· ·Yes. 24· · · · Q.· ·Have you put any GEO expensed credit cards on 25· ·bills that you've accrued at the Trump Hotel? Page 168 Page 170 ·1· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·2· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·2· · · · Q.· ·All right, how many times? ·3· · · · Q.· ·Did you all leave together? ·3· · · · A.· ·I don't - I don't recall. ·4· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·4· · · · Q.· ·More than one? ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay, did the ICE officials stay or did you ·5· · · · A.· ·Certainly more than one. ·6· ·all go out together after you left? ·6· · · · Q.· ·More than four? ·7· · · · A.· ·No.· The ICE officials stayed. ·7· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and did you see anyone with ICE while ·8· · · · Q.· ·More than ten? ·9· ·you were in D.C. during that period? ·9· · · · A.· ·Yes. 10· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry? 10· · · · Q.· ·More than twenty? 11· · · · Q.· ·Apart from the meeting -11· · · · A.· ·That I don't know. 12· · · · A.· ·Yeah. 12· · · · · · ·I don't think it's more than twenty. 13· · · · Q.· ·-- when you were in D.C. did you see anyone or 13· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so somewhere between ten and twenty? 14· ·meet with anyone with ICE apart from the meeting that 14· · · · A.· ·Correct. 15· ·you had? 15· · · · Q.· ·Okay, did you stay anywhere else after 16· · · · A.· ·I don't recall.· I don't think so, but I don't 16· ·January, 2017 when you go to D.C.? 17· ·recall having additional meetings with any ICE personnel 17· · · · A.· ·Yes. 18· ·during that time. 18· · · · Q.· ·Where? 19· · · · Q.· ·I'm not just talking about meetings.· I'm just 19· · · · A.· ·The Mandarin Hotel, the Hyatt. 20· ·saying did you - did you see them socially?· Did you -20· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 21· · · · A.· ·Oh, no. 21· · · · · · ·I'll hand you a document we're going to mark 22· · · · Q.· ·No.· Okay. 22· ·as Exhibit Fourteen. 23· · · · · · ·Do you know if anybody else with GEO did? 23· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Exhibit 14 was marked) 24· · · · A.· ·I do not. 24· ·BY MR. FREE: 25· · · · Q.· ·Where did you stay? 25· · · · Q.· ·Do you recognize this document? ·1· ·well? 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 45 of 81 Page ID #:2502 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 171–174 Page 171 ·1· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·2· · · · Q.· ·What is it? ·3· · · · A.· ·It's a letter to Mr. Homan regarding the issue ·4· ·we just discussed, the request for the equitable ·5· ·adjustment. ·6· · · · Q.· ·For how much? ·7· · · · A.· ·A little over two million dollars. ·8· · · · Q.· ·What is the date on the letter? ·9· · · · A.· ·February 14th, 2018. 10· · · · Q.· ·Who's the letter from? 11· · · · A.· ·From me. 12· · · · Q.· ·You requested the meeting for the Thursday 13· ·morning of February 22nd.· Do you believe -- That's on 14· ·the last page right above your signature.· Do you 15· ·believe that that's when the meeting happened? 16· · · · A.· ·Thereabouts.· I don't know if it was exactly 17· ·the - the - February 22nd, but -18· · · · Q.· ·Okay, when did you last review this letter? 19· · · · A.· ·With -- On Monday with -- Or Tuesday? 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay, don't -21· · · · A.· ·Yeah. 22· · · · Q.· ·I don't -23· · · · · · ·Can you turn to page two. 24· · · · A.· ·Two.· Sure. 25· · · · Q.· ·It says State of California Lawsuit and Page 173 ·1· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No. ·2· ·BY MR. FREE: ·3· · · · Q.· ·Page four, Concerted Challenges to ICE ·4· ·Authority and to the Federal Law.· Do you see where I ·5· ·am? ·6· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·7· · · · Q.· ·You wrote, "These lawsuits have placed GEO's ·8· ·operation of facilities at odds with Correctional ·9· ·Congressional direction."· Do you see that? 10· · · · A.· ·Yes. 11· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Just for the record it says 12· · · · operation of ICE facilities at odds. 13· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· Thank you. 14· ·BY MR. FREE: 15· · · · Q.· ·You say, "Obviously, GEO does not engage in 16· ·forced labor that violates the TVPA."· Do you see that? 17· · · · A.· ·Yes. 18· · · · Q.· ·GEO is a Federal Government contractor, 19· ·correct? 20· · · · A.· ·Correct. 21· · · · Q.· ·GEO has contracts with the Department of 22· ·Homeland Security, correct? 23· · · · A.· ·Correct. 24· · · · Q.· ·Those contracts are governed in part by the 25· ·Homeland Security Acquisition Regulations.· Do you - are Page 172 Page 174 ·1· ·Legislation.· Do you see that? ·1· ·you aware of that? ·2· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·2· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·3· · · · Q.· ·All right, that is the part of the letter that ·3· · · · Q.· ·They're also governed by the Federal ·4· ·discusses the Novoa case that we're here on today. ·4· ·Acquisition Regulations? ·5· ·Would you agree? ·5· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·6· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·6· · · · Q.· ·You write, "To the extent that the Plaintiffs ·7· · · · Q.· ·Did you ever house minors in the State of ·7· ·allege -- To the extent that Plaintiffs allege that ·8· ·California? ·8· ·disciplinary segregation is an unlawful threat for ·9· · · · A.· ·No. ·9· ·refusal to work, this sanction comes directly from ICE 10· · · · Q.· ·Does The GEO Group have any responses to 10· ·policies which ICE should assist in defending."· Have I 11· ·requests for information or requests for proposals 11· ·read that correctly? 12· ·regarding the detention of minors in the State of 12· · · · A.· ·You have. 13· ·California? 13· · · · Q.· ·As you sit here today do you know what ICE 14· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat that? 14· ·policy allows disciplinary segregation for a refusal of 15· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, the requested portion of the 15· ·a detained immigrant to work? 16· ·record was read back). 16· · · · A.· ·I don't - I don't recall what specific policy 17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Thank you. 17· ·contains that. 18· · · · · · ·No, we do not. 18· · · · Q.· ·Do you know of any general policy that might 19· ·BY MR. FREE: 19· ·contain that? 20· · · · Q.· ·Are you aware of any upcoming opportunities 20· · · · A.· ·It would be - I would believe it's in the 21· ·that GEO would try and qualify for regarding the housing 21· ·Detention Standards, the Perform - the Performance-Based 22· ·National Detention Standards. 22· ·of minors in the State of California? 23· · · · · · ·THE COURT REPORTER:· Regarding? 23· · · · Q.· ·Let me show you what's been marked as Exhibit 24· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· The housing of minors in the State 24· ·Two. 25· · · · of California. 25· · · · · · ·Do you have any idea as you sit here -- Before 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 46 of 81 Page ID #:2503 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 175–178 Page 175 Page 177 ·1· ·alone by yourself? ·2· ·standards I would find the disciplinary segregation for ·2· · · · A.· ·No. ·3· ·refusal to work? ·3· · · · Q.· ·So there can be multiple people in a special ·4· · · · A.· ·Either in the - in the detainee work program ·4· ·management unit cell on disciplinary segregation?· Is ·5· ·or possibly any policies regarding administrative ·5· ·that your testimony? ·6· ·segregation. ·6· · · · A.· ·It's my understanding that those types of ·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay, let's take those in turn. ·7· ·units do allow for more than one individual in a - in a ·8· · · · · · ·Let's start with the detainee work program, so ·8· ·unit or a pod. ·9· ·I'll turn you to Section 5.8 of the PBNDS which begins ·9· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any understanding as to the up 10· ·in this version on page 405. 10· ·the upward bound of that allowance?· In other words, 11· · · · A.· ·Which page? 11· ·what's the maximum number that you think you can put 12· · · · Q.· ·405. 12· ·into a special management unit cell? 13· · · · A.· ·Oh.· 405. 13· · · · A.· ·I do not. 14· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· Your microphone is 14· · · · Q.· ·In fact, like do you have any understanding of 15· · · · slipping. 15· ·in practice how many people are actually in the special 16· ·BY MR. FREE: 16· ·management unit cells? 17· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever seen these Performance-Based 17· · · · A.· ·I do not. 18· ·National Detention Standards before today in any 18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right, I am not going to go through 19· ·version? 19· ·the entire 5.8, okay, point by point.· That's the 20· · · · A.· ·Yes. 20· ·Performance-Based National Detention work standard 21· · · · Q.· ·Aside from - before we dive into this, aside 21· ·governing the voluntary work program. 22· ·from the voluntary work program standard and the 22· · · · A.· ·Okay. 23· ·segregation standard is there anywhere else in the PBNDS 23· · · · Q.· ·But you would agree with me that it's called 24· ·you believe would allow a contractor like GEO to 24· ·the voluntary work program, right? 25· ·threaten disciplinary segregation for a detainee's 25· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·1· ·you start looking at the document, where in the Page 176 Page 178 ·1· ·refusal to work at an ICE Detention Center? ·1· · · · Q.· ·You would agree that under this standard all ·2· · · · A.· ·I don't think there is anywhere in here that ·2· ·work with the exception, like a few very limited ·3· ·authorizes anyone to threaten a detainee.· There are ·3· ·exceptions that I'll show you in a minute must be ·4· ·sanctions for refusing work assignments or instructions ·4· ·voluntary in the voluntary work program, wouldn't you? ·5· ·but, no, not threaten. ·5· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay, the sanctions that you just spoke of for ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so there is a Section -- I'm sorry. ·7· ·refusing work assignments or instructions include ·7· ·Tell me again, you told me before, but I want to make ·8· ·disciplinary segregation as far as you understand it? ·8· ·sure I understood your answer.· Tell me again what you ·9· · · · A.· ·Some form of segregation.· I don't know the ·9· ·think the Performance-Based National Detention Standards 10· ·specifics. 10· ·allow GEO to threaten disciplinary segregation for on 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and when you say segregation, do you 11· ·when a person refuses to work.· Like you said a couple 12· ·mean a special management unit as that term is used in 12· ·of things, I think, like not showing up at assignments. 13· ·the Performance-Based National Detention Standards? 13· ·Can you just tell me so that I understand the behavior 14· ·What are you thinking of when you say segregation? 14· ·and can you explain to me what you think the behavior is 15· · · · A.· ·Removal from the general population. 15· ·that a detainee worker can do where GEO can put them in 16· · · · Q.· ·To where? 16· ·disciplinary segregation for refusal to work? 17· · · · A.· ·To a unit where others who need that type of 17· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form, 18· ·housing are housed. 18· · · · mischaracterizes, compound, vague. 19· · · · Q.· ·What type of housing? 19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Again I think I stated that 20· · · · A.· ·Either protective custody because they can't 20· · · · nowhere in here does it allow anyone to threaten a 21· ·be in the general population or some other type of 21· · · · detainee, but there are, I think, examples in here 22· ·qualifications that would allow them to be moved into - 22· · · · of when a detainee can be placed into segregation 23· ·outside of the general population. 23· · · · or some form of discipline being rendered in a - in 24· · · · Q.· ·Would you agree that segregation is another 24· · · · a process that describes how - how that is managed 25· ·way of saying being alone by yourself, being in a cell 25· · · · and - and executed by the contractor. 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 47 of 81 Page ID #:2504 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 179–182 Page 179 ·1· ·BY MR. FREE: ·2· · · · Q.· ·In your letter to ICE you said, "To the extent ·3· ·that Plaintiffs allege that disciplinary segregation is ·4· ·an unlawful threat for refusal to work, this sanction ·5· ·comes directly from ICE policies."· That's what you said ·6· ·in your letter.· As you sit here today, do you see ·7· ·anything in 5.8 that allows a threat of disciplinary ·8· ·segregation by GEO for a detainee's refusal to work? ·9· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 10· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No.· I do not see anything that 11· · · · authorize - authorizes anyone to threaten a 12· · · · detainee for refusal to work. 13· ·BY MR. FREE: 14· · · · Q.· ·The other standard that you mentioned I 15· ·believe was the disciplinary system.· Is that a fair 16· ·description of what you told me? 17· · · · A.· ·Yes. 18· · · · Q.· ·So we're going to look at 3.1 which begins on 19· ·215. 20· · · · · · ·Are you there with me? 21· · · · A.· ·Yes. 22· · · · · · ·215? 23· · · · Q.· ·Yes, sir. 24· · · · · · ·Excuse me.· It begins on 214. 25· · · · A.· ·Yes. Page 180 ·1· · · · Q.· ·There you go. ·2· · · · · · ·So this is the Performance-Based National ·3· ·Detention Standard Section 3.1 disciplinary system and ·4· ·the version that's in front of you is the PBNDS 2011 ·5· ·revised in 2016.· Do you see that? ·6· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·7· · · · Q.· ·All right, is there any other standard that ·8· ·you could have been referring to when you wrote this ·9· ·letter, or is this the one you were talking about? 10· · · · A.· ·I thought there might have been a section that 11· ·covered housekeeping. 12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Well, let's look back.· I'm just 13· ·going -14· · · · A.· ·Okay. 15· · · · Q.· ·-- to help you because I think I know what 16· ·you're talking about. 17· · · · A.· ·Okay. 18· · · · Q.· ·All right? 19· · · · · · ·Let's look back at 5.8. 20· · · · A.· ·What page was that again? 21· · · · Q.· ·It is -- I'm sorry.· I'm just getting to it 22· ·myself. 23· · · · · · ·It's 407. 24· · · · · · ·Excuse me.· 406. 25· · · · · · ·Do you see that page? Page 181 ·1· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·2· · · · Q.· ·Section C, personal housekeeping required, is ·3· ·that what you were thinking of? ·4· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so it says, "Work assignments are ·6· ·voluntary."· Do you agree I read that correctly? ·7· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.· (Affirmative response).· Yes. ·8· · · · Q.· ·"However, all detainees are responsible for ·9· ·personal housekeeping."· Is - have I read that 10· ·correctly? 11· · · · A.· ·Yes. 12· · · · Q.· ·All right, and then, "Detainees are required 13· ·to maintain their immediate living areas in a neat and 14· ·orderly manner by:· One, making their bunk beds daily; 15· ·two, stacking loose papers; three, keeping the floor 16· ·debris free of debris and dividers free of clutter; and 17· ·four, refraining from hanging/draping clothing, 18· ·pictures, keepsakes or other objects from beds, overhead 19· ·lighting fixtures or other furniture."· Have I read that 20· ·correctly? 21· · · · A.· ·Yes. 22· · · · Q.· ·As you sit here today do you understand any of 23· ·the lawsuits that you've written about to ICE on behalf 24· ·of GEO to include any of these four required personal 25· ·housekeeping tasks? Page 182 ·1· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·2· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I guess I don't understand your ·3· · · · question. ·4· ·BY MR. FREE: ·5· · · · Q.· ·Let me see if I can help you. ·6· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· Thank you. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Look at page two of your letter. ·8· · · · A.· ·Yeah. ·9· · · · Q.· ·You summarize for ICE the allegations as GEO 10· ·understands them, I think.· I'm starting at the second 11· ·sentence, "Novoa, a former detainee at the Adelanto 12· ·Detention Center, alleges that GEO maintains a corporate 13· ·policy and uniform practice of withholding sufficient 14· ·food, water and hygiene products from detainees at 15· ·Adelanto.· As a result, detainees are forced to either 16· ·purchase these daily necessities from the facility's 17· ·commissary or go without.· Novoa further alleges that by 18· ·maintaining these harsh conditions and purposely 19· ·withholding necessities from detainees, GEO ensures an 20· ·available pool of labor" -- excuse me -- "An available 21· ·labor pool of detainees will work for only one dollar 22· ·per day," and "Finally, Novoa alleges that the VWP is 23· ·not 'voluntary' because detainees that refuse to 24· ·participate in the voluntary work program are placed 25· ·into solitary confinement," so you've also summarized 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 48 of 81 Page ID #:2505 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 183–186 Page 183 ·1· ·the other lawsuits in your letter to - in GEO's letter ·2· ·to ICE, haven't you?· And that's at page one and page ·3· ·two. ·4· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so we're going to bracket out the State ·6· ·of Washington lawsuits on page two because those are ·7· ·about minimum wage, right? ·8· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·9· · · · Q.· ·All right, so the only other thing we're going 10· ·to be talking about is the State of Colorado lawsuit. 11· · · · · · ·When you're saying disciplinary segregation 12· ·for refusal to work is an ICE policy, it's really the 13· ·lawsuit you could be talking about, right? 14· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form, 15· · · · mischaracterizes. 16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Can you repeat the question? 17· · · · · · ·I'm sorry. 18· ·BY MR. FREE: 19· · · · Q.· ·So the only other lawsuit if - if Mr. Novoa's 20· ·lawsuit does not mention anything and your - and your 21· ·summarization of the allegations in this case don't say 22· ·anything about personal housekeeping, right, which is 23· ·the situation in which you think you can be put in 24· ·solitary under ICE policies, the only other case where 25· ·that could be true is this Colorado case, right? Page 184 ·1· · · · A.· ·I'm thinking.· I'm sorry. ·2· · · · Q.· ·We'll do it easier. ·3· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I don't think I'm tracking here. ·4· · · · Q.· ·Where is this coming from?· You say -- Just ·5· ·help me understand where you think any of these ·6· ·lawsuits -- No.· So we're back at page four. ·7· · · · · · ·"To the extent that Plaintiffs allege that ·8· ·disciplinary segregation is an unlawful threat for ·9· ·refusal to work, this sanction comes directly from ICE 10· ·policies."· Do you see that - that sentence or part of 11· ·the sentence? 12· · · · A.· ·Yes. 13· · · · Q.· ·Have I read it correctly? 14· · · · A.· ·Yes. 15· · · · Q.· ·What allegation are you talking about? 16· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Do you want to give him the 17· · · · Complaint? 18· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· No. 19· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· If you can answer that without 20· · · · looking at the Complaint which has lots of 21· · · · different obligations then go ahead. 22· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· I really would appreciate it if you 23· · · · didn't testify throughout this. 24· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Well, I'd appreciate it if you 25· · · · wouldn't torture him on - and take out of context a Page 185 ·1· · · · sentence from a letter that he wrote, but I don't ·2· · · · always get what I want. ·3· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· We're not doing this. ·4· ·BY MR. FREE: ·5· · · · Q.· ·What allegations were you referring to when ·6· ·you wrote this letter on behalf of GEO to ICE? ·7· · · · A.· ·I don't have those documents in front of me, ·8· ·so I -·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 10· · · · A.· ·-- can't answer. 11· · · · Q.· ·As you sit here today are you aware -- Now 12· ·that we've looked at the personal housekeeping 13· ·requirement are you aware of any policy that would 14· ·permit GEO, any ICE policy that would permit GEO to use 15· ·disciplinary segregation as a threat for refusing to 16· ·work? 17· · · · A.· ·I don't -- Yeah, I don't know. 18· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 19· · · · · · ·Did you know the answer to that question when 20· ·you wrote this letter? 21· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 22· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· And what was the question? 23· ·BY MR. FREE: 24· · · · Q.· ·Did you know the answer to the question I just 25· ·asked you about whether there's an ICE policy that Page 186 ·1· ·allows GEO to threaten disciplinary segregation on a ·2· ·detainee for refusal to work when you wrote the letter? ·3· ·Is it possible, in other words, that you knew that ·4· ·what you were talking about but it's been sixteen months ·5· ·and you just forgot? ·6· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form, ·7· · · · mischaracterizes, vague. ·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I just can't recall the source ·9· · · · of that information. 10· ·BY MR. FREE: 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 12· · · · · · ·Lower down the page at the fourth - fifth to 13· ·the last line -- I'm sorry. 14· · · · · · ·You signed this letter, right? 15· · · · A.· ·Yes. 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and you reviewed it on Monday, right? 17· · · · A.· ·I think it was Tuesday. 18· · · · Q.· ·Whenever. 19· · · · · · ·Did you believe it was true when you signed 20· ·it? 21· · · · A.· ·Yes. 22· · · · Q.· ·Do you still believe it's true? 23· · · · A.· ·Yes. 24· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so you still believe? 25· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I just can't point to the policy right 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 49 of 81 Page ID #:2506 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 187–190 Page 187 ·1· ·at this currently. ·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·3· · · · · · ·How do you know it's true? ·4· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I believe there is policy or ·6· · · · language contained in these documents that allow ·7· · · · for some form of discipline for individuals who ·8· · · · refuse assignments, orders and jeopardize the ·9· · · · security of the facility, but again I cannot at 10· · · · this - right now find that - that document. 11· ·BY MR. FREE: 12· · · · Q.· ·And that's -- We're talking about the 13· ·voluntary work program and not the personal 14· ·housekeeping, right? 15· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I am referring to the allegation 17· · · · that says that we put people in disciplinary 18· · · · segregation for refusing work assignments. 19· ·BY MR. FREE: 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and you're saying in this letter, "To 21· ·the extent that the Plaintiffs allege that disciplinary 22· ·segregation is an unlawful threat for refusal to work, 23· ·this sanction comes directly from ICE policies"? 24· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 25· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Again I don't recall the source Page 188 ·1· · · · document that I was referring to when I was writing ·2· · · · that, but again it was more I believe to ·3· · · · individuals, detainees refusing orders or ·4· · · · assignments not necessarily tied to the voluntary ·5· · · · work program. ·6· ·BY MR. FREE: ·7· · · · Q.· ·What assignments to your understanding when ·8· ·you wrote this letter could GEO have given a detainee ·9· ·that would under ICE policy result in disciplinary 10· ·segregation if the detainee refused? 11· · · · A.· ·You're asking for a specific example of? 12· · · · Q.· ·I'm asking the question -13· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, the requested portion of the 14· ·record was read back). 15· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· If they refused to clean their 16· · · · their areas, the personal housekeeping 17· · · · requirements, a form of discipline could be imposed 18· · · · but not automatically disciplinary segregation. 19· ·BY MR. FREE: 20· · · · Q.· ·Anything else? 21· · · · A.· ·There could be fighting, there could be other 22· ·things, activities where discipline can be imposed. 23· · · · Q.· ·That's not my question.· My question -24· · · · A.· ·Refusing to stand for counts. 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay, before you go down this rabbit hole, I'm Page 189 ·1· ·not asking you all the reasons that GEO can impose ·2· ·discipline on an ICE detainee in the Adelanto facility ·3· ·or anywhere else.· What I'm asking you is other than ·4· ·these four specified things in the personal housekeeping ·5· ·section of Section 5.8 of the PBNDS, which I appreciate ·6· ·you pointed me to that, what other work assignment could ·7· ·GEO give an ICE detainee that ICE's policies would allow ·8· ·GEO to impose disciplinary segregation if they refused? ·9· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 10· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Other than those four I don't 11· · · · I don't - I don't know what other work assignments 12· · · · would be available at the - at the facility. 13· ·BY MR. FREE: 14· · · · Q.· ·Do you believe that there are other work 15· ·assignments available at any facility that do not 16· ·include the four enumerated tasks in personal 17· ·housekeeping?· In other words, are there - is there 18· ·anything else other than these four things according to 19· ·your understanding that GEO could tell a detainee you've 20· ·got to do this thing, this task and if they don't ICE's 21· ·policy say GEO can put them in disciplinary segregation, 22· ·any other work that GEO could task a detainee with apart 23· ·from these four enumerated tasks? 24· · · · A.· ·I understand -25· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Hang on a second. Page 190 ·1· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Sure. ·2· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Sorry. ·3· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No.· It's okay. ·4· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So, no, I don't think there are ·6· · · · other work assignments that GEO could assign a ·7· · · · detainee and if they refuse that would result in ·8· · · · some form of discipline. ·9· ·BY MR. FREE: 10· · · · Q.· ·Is your understanding of any of the claims 11· ·that you discussed with ICE during this meeting either 12· ·in this case or in the Colorado case, because that's the 13· ·only other TVPA case, right, a forced labor case, is 14· ·your understanding of the claims that the - that the 15· ·Plaintiffs are bringing that ICE - that GEO should be 16· ·held liable for forcing them to do one of these four 17· ·things under the threat of solitary confinement?· Do you 18· ·think that that's what the Plaintiffs are saying? 19· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 20· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't understand the question. 21· ·BY MR. FREE: 22· · · · Q.· ·Well, these -- I mean over and over again in 23· ·this letter you referred to the voluntary work program. 24· · · · · · ·We'll start at page one.· It's in the second 25· ·full paragraph.· That's the Colorado lawsuit.· It says, 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 50 of 81 Page ID #:2507 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 191–194 Page 191 Page 193 ·1· ·"The suit alleges that GEO's payment of a dollar per day ·1· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·2· ·to detainees who work in the voluntary work program as ·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so in - in this case we went over the ·3· ·authorized by ICE and mandated by ICE's PBNDS and GEO'S ·3· ·allegations on top of page three, "Novoa alleges that ·4· ·contract violates the minimum wage law" and then they ·4· ·the VWP is not voluntary because detainees that refused ·5· ·say, "The suit also alleges that detainees are entitled ·5· ·to participate in the VWP are placed into solitary ·6· ·to disgorgement of money under a theory of unjust ·6· ·confinement," I think I understand you to have said that ·7· ·enrichment for work performed by detainees."· Did I read ·7· ·ICE policies would not allow GEO to impose a threat of ·8· ·that correctly? ·8· ·disciplinary segregation for refusing to participate in ·9· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·9· ·the voluntary work program.· Did I understand your 10· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and then -- No.· I see it.· At the top 10· ·testimony correctly? 11· ·of that paragraph -- We're not turning the page yet.· At 11· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 12· ·the top of that paragraph you say, "Menocal versus The 12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Correct. 13· ·GEO Group, et al, a class action suit by former 13· ·BY MR. FREE: 14· ·detainees at the Aurora Colorado ICE Processing Facility 14· · · · Q.· ·In other words, nothing - ICE is not going to 15· ·has been pending since 2014 and represents the first 15· ·allow GEO - as far as you understand it, ICE's policies 16· ·lawsuit claiming that GEO by having detainees at the 16· ·would not allow GEO to throw somebody in segregation for 17· ·Aurora facility perform basic housekeeping chores for no 17· ·refusal to work, correct? 18· ·pay under the alleged threat of solitary confinement, 18· · · · A.· ·Under the VWP? 19· ·has engaged in forced labor in violation of the 19· · · · Q.· ·Yes, sir. 20· ·Trafficking - Trafficking Victims Protection Act." Did I 20· · · · A.· ·Correct. 21· ·read that correctly? 21· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and ICE's policies would not allow GEO 22· · · · A.· ·Yes. 22· ·to threaten segregation - threaten imposition of 23· · · · Q.· ·Okay, is - is that allegation as you have 23· ·segregation on a detainee, so the first question was 24· ·summarized it in this letter on behalf of GEO to ICE the 24· ·about actually imposing segregation.· My next - this 25· ·allegation that you're referring to on page four that 25· ·question is about GEO threatening to impose segregation Page 192 ·1· ·disciplinary segregation is an unlawful threat for ·2· ·refusal to work? ·3· · · · A.· ·Can you ask the question again? ·4· · · · Q.· ·I can. ·5· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· I just -- I'm not a lawyer, so Page 194 ·1· ·for refusal to work in the VWP.· Do you understand the ·2· ·distinction between the two questions that I'm asking? ·3· · · · A.· ·I do. ·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so this -- You've said, "Novoa alleges ·6· ·it's hard for me to track some of this stuff. ·5· ·that the VWP is not voluntary because detainees that ·6· ·refused to participate in the VWP are placed into ·7· · · · Q.· ·I'm just trying to understand what you were ·7· ·solitary confinement," and I think we agree that there ·8· ·thinking when you wrote this, and I know you're not a ·8· ·is no ICE policy that would allow GEO to impose solitary ·9· ·confinement for refusing to participate in the VWP.· Do ·9· ·lawyer, but -10· · · · A.· ·Right. 11· · · · Q.· ·-- I'm just reading your words. 12· · · · A.· ·Yeah. 13· · · · Q.· ·Okay?· And I just want to make sure that it's 14· ·clear, and I think you do too, right? 15· · · · A.· ·Yes. 16· · · · Q.· ·Yes. 17· · · · · · ·Okay, so, you know, you've said, "To the 18· ·extent that Plaintiffs allege that disciplinary 19· ·segregation is an unlawful threat for refusal to work 20· ·and this sanction comes directly from ICE policies," and 21· ·you've only in the letter talked about two instances - 10· ·we agree on that? 11· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I would agree that there's no 13· · · · policy that - that would allow the contractor to 14· · · · put someone in a - segregation for refusing to 15· · · · participate in the VWP. 16· ·BY MR. FREE: 17· · · · Q.· ·Including GEO? 18· · · · A.· ·Including GEO. 19· · · · Q.· ·All right, so then what you're talking about, 20· ·I think -- I'm sorry.· Did you have something to -- I 21· ·didn't -- 22· ·you know, you've summarized these two cases, right, the 22· · · · A.· ·No.· No.· No. 23· ·Colorado case and this case that involved disciplinary 23· · · · Q.· ·-- want to interrupt. 24· ·segregation for refusal to work.· You following me so 24· · · · A.· ·No.· I'm was just clearing my throat. 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay, I think what you're talking about then 25· ·far? 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 51 of 81 Page ID #:2508 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 195–198 Page 195 Page 197 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When you wrote this letter do you know ·1· ·the only other thing you could be talking about is back ·2· ·on page one which is having detainees at the Aurora ·2· ·if - do you remember if you knew what the potential ·3· ·facility perform basic housekeeping chores for now pay ·3· ·monetary damages GEO could be facing would be in terms ·4· ·under the alleged threat of solitary confinement? ·4· ·of an actual number?· Had anybody told you that or did ·5· · · · A.· ·That would be correct. ·5· ·you know it? ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and so your understanding when you're ·6· · · · A.· ·No, I did not. ·7· ·writing this letter is that the Aurora case is about ·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay, the fifth page it says, "Monetary ·8· ·detainees refusing to do the four things in the personal ·8· ·damage - damages in each of the Colorado, Washington and ·9· ·housekeeping tasks? ·9· ·California cases could reach several millions of 10· · · · A.· ·Correct. 10· ·dollars."· Do you see that? 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay, if GEO were doing things outside - if 11· · · · A.· ·Yes. 12· ·GEO were forcing people at Aurora to do anything other 12· · · · Q.· ·Have I read it correctly? 13· ·than these four things, these four enumerated tasks, do 13· · · · A.· ·You have. 14· ·you understand ICE's policies to permit the threat or 14· · · · Q.· ·Turn to page one, please. 15· ·imposition of solitary - segregation on a detainee by 15· · · · · · ·In the first paragraph you wrote on behalf of 16· ·GEO? 16· ·GEO to ICE, "GEO cannot bear the costs of this defense 17· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 17· ·on its own."· Do you see that? 18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't think ICE would allow us 18· · · · A.· ·Yes. 19· · · · to - to make any additional assignments beyond 19· · · · Q.· ·Why did you write that?· What were you basing 20· · · · those four as it relates to housekeeping. 20· ·that statement on? 21· ·BY MR. FREE: 21· · · · A.· ·It was based on the amount of expense that we 22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I understand. 22· ·incurred and the belief that the government had some 23· · · · A.· ·Okay. 23· ·interest or equities in these cases and that they should 24· · · · Q.· ·I think we're there. 24· ·be part of it. 25· · · · A.· ·Okay. 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and to be fair to you it's a compound Page 196 Page 198 ·1· ·sentence.· I've only read you the first clause.· It ·1· · · · Q.· ·In the next paragraph you say on page four, ·2· ·says, "GEO cannot bear the cost of this defense on its ·2· ·"Likewise, the demand that GEO pay a state mandated ·3· ·minimum wage is directly contrary to Federal law in the ·3· ·own."· I understand that you've said a couple of other ·4· ·terms of ICE and GEO's contracts."· Did I read that ·4· ·things, but I just want to focus you on - you kind of ·5· ·correctly? ·5· ·brought in the Federal Government's interests and things ·6· · · · A.· ·What page are you on? ·6· ·like that, but I'm just asking you about the costs of ·7· · · · Q.· ·On page four, fourth paragraph. ·7· ·defense.· You've asked them for a little over two ·8· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·8· ·million dollars, okay, and then you've projected in the ·9· · · · Q.· ·Is the Federal law that you are talking about ·9· ·final page several millions of dollars each, right? 10· ·included in this letter? 10· · · · A.· ·At which page? 11· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 11· · · · Q.· ·The final page.· Five. 12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 12· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Yes. 13· ·BY MR. FREE: 13· · · · Q.· ·All right, you don't know -- I think you just 14· · · · Q.· ·It's the next couple sentences. 14· ·told me you don't know what those actual costs would be, 15· · · · A.· ·Yes. 15· ·but you've told ICE, GEO has told ICE you can't bear 16· · · · Q.· ·Is there any other Federal law that GEO 16· ·those costs on your own, right? 17· ·contends that you on behalf of GEO were thinking about 17· · · · A.· ·Correct. 18· ·that a state mandated minimum wage would be directly 18· · · · Q.· ·Why not? 19· ·contrary to? 19· · · · A.· ·Again as this continues every single day more 20· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 20· ·and more individuals are added to the class.· If there 21· ·BY MR. FREE: 21· ·were to be an adverse outcome, yeah, that could be 22· · · · Q.· ·Directly contrary to. 22· ·millions and millions of dollars expense to GEO, so I 23· · · · A.· ·No. 23· ·think that's what I was referring to. 24· · · · Q.· ·Just this? 24· · · · Q.· ·Remember a moment ago when we were talking 25· · · · A.· ·Just this. 25· ·about the indemnification provision of your 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 52 of 81 Page ID #:2509 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 199–202 Page 199 Page 201 ·1· ·intergovernmental services agreement between GEO, ICE ·1· ·told that they expect the market for immigration ·2· ·and the City of Adelanto? ·2· ·detention to continue and that GEO will stay profitable, ·3· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· Yes. ·3· ·right? ·4· · · · Q.· ·And do you remember agreeing that GEO is going ·4· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·5· ·to bear the risk or at least the terms of that contract ·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· They have made those statements, ·6· ·would indicate that GEO is going to bear the risk of any ·6· · · · correct. ·7· ·of that litigation? ·7· ·BY MR. FREE: ·8· · · · A.· ·Of litigation, yes. ·8· · · · Q.· ·GEO has disclosed this litigation to its ·9· · · · Q.· ·And those costs including expenses and ·9· ·shareholders, but are you aware of any communication of 10· ·attorney's fees, do you remember that? 10· ·shareholders that says GEO's going to have to cease to 11· · · · A.· ·I do remember that. 11· ·function as an entity if the Plaintiffs win? 12· · · · Q.· ·Okay, what are GEO's annual revenues ballpark? 12· · · · A.· ·I'm not aware of any communication like that. 13· · · · A.· ·Annual revenues?· 2.5 billion. 13· · · · Q.· ·Are you aware of any communication to the 14· · · · Q.· ·You've asked ICE for two million dollars, 14· ·shareholders or anyone that says if we have to pay 15· ·right? 15· ·several million dollars to the Plaintiffs in Colorado, 16· · · · A.· ·Correct. 16· ·Washington and California we cannot bear the costs of 17· · · · Q.· ·What's GEO's annual profit? 17· ·the defense and -- 18· · · · A.· ·That I don't know. 18· · · · A.· ·You're asking if I'm aware of any 19· · · · Q.· ·What's GEO's current market capitalization? 19· ·communication? 20· · · · A.· ·Precisely? 20· · · · Q.· ·Yes, sir. 21· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· Ballpark. 21· · · · A.· ·No. 22· · · · A.· ·Three billion. 22· · · · Q.· ·Do you think there has been such? 23· · · · Q.· ·Do you know ballpark profits? 23· · · · A.· ·I do not know. 24· · · · A.· ·I don't. 24· · · · Q.· ·All right, when's the last time that -- You 25· · · · Q.· ·So you don't have -- Do you have any idea what 25· ·own GEO stock? Page 200 ·1· ·the - on the revenue is, you don't have any idea how ·1· · · · A.· ·I do. Page 202 ·2· ·much of it is a profit? ·2· · · · Q.· ·When's the last time you sold GEO stock? ·3· · · · A.· ·I don't. ·3· · · · A.· ·Maybe about fourteen months ago. ·4· · · · Q.· ·Is GEO currently operating at a loss? ·4· · · · Q.· ·Like August of 2017, something like that or ·5· · · · A.· ·As a company overall? ·5· ·20 -- I've got it.· Never mind. ·6· · · · Q.· ·Yes, sir. ·6· · · · · · ·About fourteen months ago you said? ·7· · · · A.· ·No. ·7· · · · A.· ·I think so. ·8· · · · Q.· ·Is GEO currently profitable? ·8· · · · Q.· ·How many shares did you sell? ·9· · · · A.· ·I would say yes. ·9· · · · A.· ·I don't recall the precise number. 10· · · · Q.· ·Has GEO's profit increased since August of 10· · · · Q.· ·Is it like around twenty thousand, twenty-five 11· ·2016 until today? 11· ·thousand, something like that? 12· · · · A.· ·That I don't know. 12· · · · A.· ·I don't remember. 13· · · · Q.· ·I'm pegging August of 2016 because that's when 13· · · · Q.· ·Were these restricted -- Do you own shares 14· ·the stock got cut.· You know what I'm talking about, 14· ·that are restricted or shares that are -- In other 15· ·right? 15· ·words, could you dispose - could you tomorrow go and 16· · · · A.· ·Yes. 16· ·just liquidate your GEO stock options? 17· · · · Q.· ·That's the leaked memo and the fifty percent 17· · · · A.· ·I cannot. 18· ·in a day or something that - the market cut that you 18· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you know ballpark how much you sold? 19· ·lost? 19· · · · A.· ·I don't. 20· · · · A.· ·Correct. 20· · · · Q.· ·All right, and as an officer you had to clear 21· · · · Q.· ·All right, since then it's been an upward 21· ·that, right, through various channels? 22· ·trend, right, in terms of revenues and profitability? 22· · · · A.· ·Yes. 23· · · · A.· ·Yes. 23· · · · Q.· ·Yeah. 24· · · · Q.· ·And in each shareholder call whether it's Mr. 24· · · · · · ·Okay, you have to disclose it as well, I 25· ·Zoley, Mr. Bulfin or others GEO's shareholders are being 25· ·think, right? 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 53 of 81 Page ID #:2510 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 203–206 Page 203 ·1· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·2· · · · Q.· ·Do you know about how much you got from the ·3· ·sale? ·4· · · · A.· ·I don't. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Why did you sell? ·6· · · · A.· ·Why did I sell? ·7· · · · Q.· ·Yes, sir. ·8· · · · A.· ·I had an expense that I needed to take care ·9· ·of. 10· · · · Q.· ·All right, did you get it taken care of? 11· · · · A.· ·Yes. 12· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Good. 13· · · · · · ·Do you know comparatively where the GEO's 14· ·share price was at the time that you sold to historical 15· ·prices? 16· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't recall the precise price 18· · · · the day I sold, but it's certainly a lot less than 19· · · · when they were granted to me. 20· ·BY MR. FREE: 21· · · · Q.· ·You said it was a lot less when they were 22· ·granted to you? 23· · · · A.· ·I believe so. 24· · · · Q.· ·How much less? 25· · · · A.· ·I don't - I don't know. Page 205 ·1· ·to cover to sell those shares? ·2· · · · A.· ·More than - more than the amount that I got ·3· ·for the shares. ·4· · · · Q.· ·You don't remember what the expense was? ·5· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I mean do I have to disclose what my ·6· ·personal expenses are? ·7· · · · Q.· ·I don't want to know what it's for, ·8· ·Mr. Venturella.· I'm not trying -- I'm just trying to ·9· ·understand -10· · · · A.· ·Well, what are you trying to understand? 11· · · · Q.· ·If you could, please, if you can answer that 12· ·question I'd really appreciate it. 13· · · · · · ·Thank you. 14· · · · A.· ·Do I -- So ask the question again. 15· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Ask the question again. 16· ·BY MR. FREE: 17· · · · Q.· ·I'm just asking ballpark what was the expense 18· ·that you were trying to cover? 19· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· The amount of the expense. 20· ·BY MR. FREE: 21· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, the amount. 22· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· You don't have to say anything 23· · · · more. 24· ·BY MR. FREE: 25· · · · Q.· ·I don't want to know that.· Yeah. Page 204 Page 206 ·1· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· You don't have to say anything ·1· · · · Q.· ·Does about twenty-five dollars a share sound ·2· · · · more and then he's going to be done with this ·2· ·right? ·3· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object. ·3· · · · because we're so far afield that I can understand ·4· ·BY MR. FREE: ·4· · · · why you would feel it's intrusive, so just if you ·5· · · · Q.· ·Twenty-five seventy is what you sold at? ·5· · · · can give him the amount then we'll move on. ·6· · · · A.· ·I -- It sounds right. ·6· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· All right, it was over eight ·7· · · · Q.· ·All right. ·7· · · · hundred thousand. ·8· · · · A.· ·Close. ·8· ·BY MR. FREE: ·9· · · · Q.· ·What was it worth when you got it? ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and did the sale cover the expense? 10· · · · A.· ·When I - when I was granted the stock? 10· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Asked and answered. 11· · · · Q.· ·Uh-huh. 11· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It did not. 12· · · · A.· ·I don't know. 12· ·BY MR. FREE: 13· · · · Q.· ·Then how do you know it's a lot less? 13· · · · Q.· ·Did not.· Okay. 14· · · · A.· ·I know our share price was in the thirties at 14· · · · · · ·All right, so as you sit here today do you 15· ·one point, so -- 15· ·still believe that GEO cannot bear the cost of its 16· · · · Q.· ·When's the last time it was in the thirties? 16· ·defense on its own? 17· · · · A.· ·I don't recall the date. 17· · · · A.· ·I believe the expense is extraordinary so, 18· · · · Q.· ·Ballpark. 18· ·yes. 19· · · · A.· ·2014, 2015. 19· · · · Q.· ·On what do you base that belief that the 20· · · · Q.· ·It's been awhile, right? 20· ·expense is extraordinary? 21· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· Yeah. 21· · · · A.· ·Again I base it on the potential of an adverse 22· · · · Q.· ·You -- How much was the expense just ballpark 22· ·decision in - in these cases and the fact that hundreds, 23· ·that you had to cover to sell these shares? 23· ·if not thousands of people go through our detention 24· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry? 24· ·facilities every single day and if they're - they become 25· · · · Q.· ·How much was the expense ballpark that you had 25· ·a member or class member of these cases then that number 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 54 of 81 Page ID #:2511 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 207–210 Page 207 Page 209 ·1· · · · A.· ·I don't recall. ·2· ·at the end, but I think it's pretty extraordinary. ·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay, you don't know why you didn't include ·3· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any understanding regarding the ·3· ·the criminal aspect of the TVPA? ·4· ·monetary damages on page five that you - that GEO wrote ·4· · · · A.· ·No. ·5· ·to ICE about, you wrote to them on behalf of GEO, do you ·5· · · · Q.· ·And what you say is there's the potential for ·6· ·have any understanding as to what those monetary damages ·6· ·damages under the TVPA reaching as many as sixty ·7· ·would be? ·7· ·thousand detainees at the Aurora facility, right? ·8· · · · A.· ·No. ·8· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·9· · · · Q.· ·Would this judgment put GEO out of business in 10· · · · A.· ·No.· No.· Not in specifics, no. 10· ·your estimation? 11· · · · Q.· ·A couple of them were minimum wage cases, 11· · · · A.· ·I don't know.· I don't know. 12· ·right? 12· · · · Q.· ·Who -- Did you write this letter by yourself? 13· · · · A.· ·Correct. 13· · · · A.· ·I did not. 14· · · · Q.· ·So you assume that the monetary damages would 14· · · · Q.· ·Who else collaborated on this letter? 15· ·be the minimum wage or the difference between the wage 15· · · · A.· ·Our Office of General Counsel. 16· ·and what they're getting, a dollar for the work they 16· · · · Q.· ·Anybody else? 17· ·performed, right? 17· · · · A.· ·Contract Administration. 18· · · · A.· ·Correct. 18· · · · Q.· ·Who in Contract Administration? 19· · · · Q.· ·And you're telling me that -- You haven't told 19· · · · A.· ·That would be Amber Martin. 20· ·me yet. 20· · · · Q.· ·Anybody else? 21· · · · · · ·The paragraph above that you said, "Thus far, 21· · · · A.· ·No. 22· ·GEO's legal fees and costs in Menocal exceed 1.6 million 22· · · · Q.· ·Any other departments aside from the General 23· ·dollars which will increase sharp - sharply now that the 23· ·Counsel and the Office of Contract Administration? 24· ·Tenth Circuit has affirmed the class-certification.· In 24· · · · A.· ·No. 25· ·the Washington litigation the defense fees and costs are 25· · · · Q.· ·Did you write multiple drafts of it? ·1· ·is - is high, it's great.· I don't know what it will be Page 208 ·1· ·already approximately four hundred and forty thousand ·2· ·dollars and could quickly exceed one million once ·3· ·discovery begins or increase exponentially if ·4· ·class-certification is granted in each lawsuit."· Do you ·5· ·see that? ·6· · · · A.· ·I do. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Have I read that correctly? ·8· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·9· · · · Q.· ·And then it says, "Even more concerning is 10· ·that there is the potential for damages under the TVPA 11· ·reaching as many as sixty thousand detainees at the 12· ·Aurora facility over ten years and claims for the 13· ·disgorgement of unpaid wages to VWP participants 14· ·stemming back multiple years."· Did I read that 15· ·correctly? 16· · · · A.· ·Yes. 17· · · · Q.· ·Why is that even more concerning? 18· · · · A.· ·Again I don't recall the source of that. I 19· ·think that's - the TVP is also criminals based on I 20· ·think my limited knowledge of that, so I think that's 21· ·one of the reasons why I spoke to or mention that. 22· · · · Q.· ·Why didn't you include that in that letter or 23· ·in that -24· · · · A.· ·I don't -25· · · · Q.· ·-- sentence? Page 210 ·1· · · · A.· ·I would assume we did, yes. ·2· · · · Q.· ·Do you know one way or the other? ·3· · · · A.· ·I would say, yes, we did. ·4· · · · Q.· ·Did you personally write any of the passages ·5· ·in this letter? ·6· · · · A.· ·I don't recall which - which portions were ·7· ·mine. ·8· · · · Q.· ·But there are some portions that are yours? ·9· · · · A.· ·Yes. 10· · · · Q.· ·Which ones?· You don't recall which ones? 11· · · · A.· ·I don't recall. 12· · · · Q.· ·That's fine. 13· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Can we take a break? 14· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· No. 15· · · · · · ·I mean is the witness asking for a break? 16· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· What? 17· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· I'm -18· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Are you saying we cannot take a 19· · · · break? 20· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· I would prefer to power through if 21· · · · it's possible. 22· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Well, I would prefer to take a 23· · · · break, so -24· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· Okay.· Take a break. 25· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Thank you. 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 55 of 81 Page ID #:2512 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 211–214 Page 211 Page 213 ·1· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· We are going off the video ·1· ·The GEO Group and it's redacted, but I think the ·2· · · · record 2:24 p.m. ·2· ·Executive VP for Contract Administration here in Boca ·3· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, there was a brief recess observed) ·3· ·Raton based on your testimony is Amber Martin; is that ·4· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· We are back on the video ·4· ·correct? ·5· · · · record 2:39 p.m. ·5· · · · A.· ·That is correct. ·6· ·BY MR. FREE: ·6· · · · Q.· ·All right, and so this - combining these two ·7· · · · Q.· ·Mr. Venturella, I'm going to hand you an ·7· ·letters, you know, you submitted the one on 20 - on ·8· ·exhibit that we're marking as Number Fifteen. ·8· ·February 14th for all of the cases and then on ·9· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Exhibit 15 was marked) ·9· ·April 18th you submitted individual contract equitable 10· ·BY MR. FREE: 10· ·adjustment requests based on Exhibit Fifteen and then 11· · · · Q.· ·Have you seen this document before? 11· ·this is a response to that individual equitable 12· · · · A.· ·I have not. 12· ·adjustment request for Adelanto; is that right? 13· · · · Q.· ·It appears to be a letter from Chairman and 13· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 14· ·CEO George Zoley of The GEO Group to Pete Edge, Acting 14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 15· ·Deputy Director of ICE dated May 30th regarding the 15· ·BY MR. FREE: 16· ·equitable adjustment request that you sent on 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay, on page - the second page of this 17· ·February 14th, 2018.· Have I accurately characterized 17· ·document I'm reading - the last numbers are 4013 or 6060 18· ·what this letter looks like? 18· ·depending on which one you look at. 19· · · · A.· ·Yes. 19· · · · · · ·There's a bunch of redactions and then it 20· · · · Q.· ·This is following up on your 20 - your letter 20· ·says, "Based on the above, GEO's REA, request for 21· ·of February 14th, right? 21· ·equitable adjustment is denied in its entirety."· Do you 22· · · · A.· ·Yes. 22· ·see that? 23· · · · Q.· ·Okay, were you involved in the April 18th 23· · · · A.· ·Yes. 24· ·updated individual requests for equitable adjustments 24· · · · Q.· ·Have I read that correctly? 25· ·out of Adelanto, Aurora and Tacoma that is reflected in 25· · · · A.· ·Yes. Page 212 ·1· ·this letter? ·2· · · · A.· ·No. ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay, did you know that those updated ·4· ·individual requests for equitable adjustments had been ·5· ·submitted to ICE on behalf of GEO? ·6· · · · A.· ·I was not aware of their submittal, but ·7· ·aware - I was aware that they were being prepared. ·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and how did you know that? ·9· · · · A.· ·With counsel. 10· · · · Q.· ·Okay, have you had any communications with 11· ·anyone at ICE about this letter?· I know you haven't Page 214 ·1· · · · Q.· ·"As a threshold matter, GEO has failed to show ·2· ·its entitlement to such a modification under the IGSA ·3· ·terms or applicable laws and regulations."· Do you see ·4· ·that? ·5· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·6· · · · Q.· ·All right, "Additionally, GEO has failed to ·7· ·address the reasonableness or provide adequate ·8· ·supporting data for the quantum sought."· Do you see ·9· ·that? 10· · · · A.· ·Yes. 12· ·seen it before today, but -- 11· · · · Q.· ·Did I read that correctly? 12· · · · A.· ·Yes. 13· · · · A.· ·No. 13· · · · Q.· ·And then it points GEO to a disputes clause in 14· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 14· ·the intergovernmental services agreement and then a 15· ·contract disputes act.· Do you see that? 15· · · · A.· ·Excuse me. 16· · · · Q.· ·That's all right. 17· · · · · · ·And do you know if anybody else at GEO has 18· ·followed up on this May 30th letter? 19· · · · A.· ·I do not. 20· · · · Q.· ·I'm going to show you Sixteen, Exhibit Sixteen 21· ·now. 22· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Exhibit 16 was marked) 16· · · · A.· ·Yes. 17· · · · Q.· ·I believe you testified earlier that you did 18· ·not know the result of your February 14th or February -19· ·What was the date?· I'm sorry.· Your Valentine's Day 20· ·letter, right? 21· · · · A.· ·Right. 23· ·BY MR. FREE: 22· · · · Q.· ·So you didn't - you didn't know what the 23· ·result was; is that right? 24· · · · Q.· ·This appears to be a letter dated June 21st, 24· · · · A.· ·Correct. 25· ·2018 from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement to 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you now understand that the request 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 56 of 81 Page ID #:2513 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 215–218 Page 215 Page 217 ·1· ·for equitable adjustment has been denied? ·1· ·that? ·2· · · · A.· ·I do.· Yeah, it's the first time I've seen ·2· · · · A.· ·I do. ·3· ·this but, yes, I do. ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay, or someone did it on your behalf, right? ·4· · · · Q.· ·All right. ·4· · · · A.· ·Right. ·5· · · · · · ·GEO appears to still be operational, correct? ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·6· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·6· · · · A.· ·Right. ·7· · · · Q.· ·All right, so at least since Valentine's Day ·7· · · · Q.· ·At the time in 2015 you're the Senior ·8· ·2018 up to today, June 13th, 2019 GEO has borne the ·8· ·Business - Senior Vice-President of Business Development ·9· ·costs of its defense on its own? ·9· ·for GEO? 10· · · · A.· ·We have. 10· · · · · · ·We're back on this one. 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 11· · · · · · ·True? 12· · · · · · ·I think we should clear some brush because I - 12· · · · A.· ·Yes. 13· ·I worry about some of that stuff getting folded into the 13· · · · Q.· ·The declaration was based on your personal 14· ·exhibits in front of you, so I'm going to let your 14· ·knowledge in your capacity as the person responsible for 15· ·counsel kind of move the PBNDS out of the way.· Yes. 15· ·proposals at GEO and is described herein, true? 16· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Can you take those and just put 16· · · · A.· ·True. 17· · · · Q.· ·And then you explained that you went to GEO in 17· · · · it back into one exhibit. 18· ·BY MR. FREE: 18· ·2012 and prior to that you were employed at ICE for 19· · · · Q.· ·Oh, I did mean to ask, I know you hadn't seen 19· ·twenty-two years where you held various positions, 20· ·that.· Let's just -- I'm sorry.· Let's go back to -- 20· ·right? 21· ·Yes, Exhibit Fifteen.· I know you haven't seen that 21· · · · A.· ·Correct. 22· ·letter before that's in front of you, Exhibit Fifteen, 22· · · · Q.· ·Did you review this declaration in preparation 23· ·but were you aware of any - that this had gone out? 23· ·for the deposition? 24· · · · A.· ·I was not. 24· · · · A.· ·No. 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and did you attend or know about any 25· · · · Q.· ·All right, when's the last time you saw this Page 216 ·1· ·declaration? ·1· ·meetings regarding the preparation or submission of ·2· · · · A.· ·Probably December 22nd, 2015. ·2· ·this? Page 218 ·3· · · · A.· ·No. ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay, fair enough. ·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay, is it fair to say that you have not been ·4· · · · · · ·All right, you say in paragraph three since ·5· ·in the loop on subsequent communications about the ·5· ·GEO was founded in 1984.· Was it called GEO in 1984 do ·6· ·equitable adjustment sought to ICE by GEO for voluntary ·6· ·you know? ·7· · · · A.· ·No.· It was part of the Wackenhut Group. ·7· ·work regarding lawsuits? ·8· · · · A.· ·That would be fair. ·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so when you're referring to GEO's ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay, Mr. Venturella, I'm going to hand you a ·9· ·founding you're talking about Wackenhut, right? 10· ·document we're marking as Exhibit Seventeen. 10· · · · A.· ·Correct. 11· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Exhibit 17 was marked) 11· · · · Q.· ·Probably the Corrections Department of 12· ·BY MR. FREE: 12· ·Wackenhut, right? 13· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever seen this document before? 13· · · · A.· ·I don't know. 14· · · · A.· ·Yes. 14· · · · Q.· ·Okay, that's fine. 15· · · · Q.· ·What is it? 15· · · · · · ·You are not the company historian, I think, 16· · · · A.· ·It's a declaration. 16· ·right? 17· · · · Q.· ·By whom? 17· · · · A.· ·That is correct. 18· · · · A.· ·By me. 18· · · · Q.· ·Cool. 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, if you turn to the last page.· It's on 19· · · · · · ·At the time you had twelve detention 20· ·the back of the package, page ten.· What date did you 20· ·facilities of different types for ICE, that's paragraph 21· ·sign this letter? 21· ·four, right? 22· · · · A.· ·December 22nd, 2015. 22· · · · A.· ·Correct. 23· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and you submitted this letter on behalf 23· · · · Q.· ·And GEO - so GEO had twelve detention 24· ·of GEO to the United States District Court from the 24· ·facilities, not you, David Venturella? 25· ·Southern District of New York.· Do you remember doing 25· · · · A.· ·GEO.· Correct. 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 57 of 81 Page ID #:2514 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 219–222 Page 219 Page 221 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay, "Representing approximately ·2· · · · · · ·If I said you and you've responded probably ·2· ·sixty-five percent of the total facility costs."· Do you ·3· ·GEO. ·3· ·see that? ·4· · · · · · ·There were seventy-five thousand beds overseen ·4· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·5· ·by GEO in the United States in sixty-four different ·5· · · · Q.· ·Did I read that correctly? ·6· ·places, correct? ·6· · · · A.· ·You did. ·7· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Is that true? ·8· · · · Q.· ·Turn to page three.· Paragraph twelve, pricing ·8· · · · A.· ·That is true. ·9· ·information staffing plans, do you see that? ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay, "The labor costs are calculated based on 10· · · · A.· ·Yes. 10· ·the application of the company's proprietary staffing 11· · · · Q.· ·You testified under oath, "A bed-day or per 11· ·plan to the design and operation of the facility with 12· ·diem rate is the daily rate paid by the con - by the 12· ·personnel decision" -- Excuse me -- "Personnel positions 13· ·government to a contractor for the comprehensive secure 13· ·priced in accordance with the minimum wages and benefits 14· ·residential care of detainees at a CDF."· That's a 14· ·set forth in the Department of Labor wage determination 15· ·contract detention facility, right? 15· ·issue for that particular RFP in the geographical area 16· · · · A.· ·Correct. 16· ·that facility will serve."· Did I read that correctly? 17· · · · Q.· ·And the bed-day or per diem rates are the 17· · · · A.· ·You did. 18· ·things we were talking about earlier, right? 18· · · · Q.· ·The RFP is a request for proposal? 19· · · · A.· ·Correct. 19· · · · A.· ·Yes. 20· · · · Q.· ·And you were saying about that's how you 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay, you say, "Each company has its own 21· ·established the price in - for a fixed rate contract? 21· ·proprietary approach to staffing based on its analysis - 22· ·Yeah? 22· ·based upon its analysis of the RFP work statement 23· · · · A.· ·Correct. 23· ·requirements, company philosophy and operational 24· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so this is the same thing we're talking 24· ·policies."· Is that right? 25· ·about? 25· · · · A.· ·Yes. Page 220 Page 222 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so when you say each company, you're ·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay, "The bed-day rate broadly includes all ·2· ·talking about private corporations that are doing ·3· ·daily operating costs of the facility including ·3· ·immigration detention contracts, correct? ·4· ·personnel, food, health care, supplies, utilities, ·4· · · · A.· ·Or detention contracts. ·5· ·maintenance, infrastructure, depreciation, cost of ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·6· ·capital, overhead and profit," correct? ·6· · · · A.· ·Yeah. ·7· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·7· · · · Q.· ·All right, broader than just immigration? ·8· · · · Q.· ·All right, has any of that changed since 2015 ·8· · · · A.· ·Right. ·9· ·or is that what the bed-day or per diem rate encompasses ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay, this is industry wide, right? 10· ·still? 10· · · · A.· ·Correct. 11· · · · A.· ·Broadly, yes. 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay, then you say, "The bed-day rates and 12· · · · Q.· ·Anything that is - it's leaving out? 12· ·staffing plans contained in the contractor's proposal or 13· · · · A.· ·No.· I don't think so. 13· ·bid are incorporated into the final contract unless they 14· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 14· ·are revised as a result of subsequent negotiation with 15· · · · A.· ·I think those are broad categories. 15· ·ICE."· Is that right? 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Okay, when you say broadly, what you're 16· · · · A.· ·Yes. 17· ·saying is these are just kind of high level descriptions 17· · · · Q.· ·That's what you said and that's what's true, 18· ·of what's in the bed-day rate? 18· ·right? 19· · · · A.· ·Correct. 19· · · · A.· ·Yes. 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay, the next sentence says, "Of these costs 20· · · · Q.· ·And we've seen reflections of that already in 21· ·the largest single cost is for personnel."· That's still 21· ·the documents we've - we've looked at, right? 22· ·at the bottom of three.· Do you see that? 22· · · · A.· ·Yes. 23· · · · A.· ·Yes. 23· · · · Q.· ·We saw the initial bed-day rate in the initial 24· · · · Q.· ·Is that true? 24· ·IGSA of ninety-nine dollars per bed-day at a certain 25· · · · A.· ·Yes. 25· ·level and then something lower at a secondary level ·1· · · · A.· ·Correct. 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 58 of 81 Page ID #:2515 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 223–226 Page 223 Page 225 ·1· · · · · · ·Is it fair to say that this facility staffing ·2· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·2· ·plan reflects the cost of the labor, at least some of ·3· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, and then you get the blended rate going ·3· ·them as you've described here? ·4· ·forward it moves.· We've seen some of the modifications ·4· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·5· ·that say we're going to increase the bed-day rate based ·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. ·6· ·on an increased cost that GEO has to bear, right? ·6· ·BY MR. FREE: ·7· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so the facility - "A facility staffing ·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so we looked at the one regarding the ·8· ·plan" -- This is paragraph fourteen -- "Contains every ·9· ·collective bargaining agreement for guards, right? ·9· ·position that the contractor intends to employ or retain 10· · · · A.· ·Yes. 10· ·for the operation of the facility and includes the shift 11· · · · Q.· ·We looked at the one regarding medical 11· ·that position will be required to work, generally 12· ·staffing - medical staffing being increased, right? 12· ·morning, afternoon or night, relief factor, reflecting 13· · · · A.· ·Yes. 13· ·the number of persons required to fill each position 14· · · · Q.· ·And so that increased cost increased the 14· ·taking into account whether the position is a part-time 15· ·bed-day rate, correct? 15· ·or full-time (five or seven day) post and how company 16· · · · A.· ·Correct. 16· ·many company specific sick days, vacation days, jury 17· · · · Q.· ·And you've said, you know, labor is 17· ·duty days, et cetera must be taken into account in the 18· ·approximately sixty-five percent of the total costs, 18· ·relief factor calculation for each position, whether the 19· ·correct? 19· ·position is a fixed or a static post, the hourly or 20· · · · A.· ·Correct. 20· ·annual wage to be paid for each such position and the 21· · · · Q.· ·Yeah. 21· ·payroll tax and benefit costs for each position."· Have 22· · · · · · ·Okay, and I think the next sentence explains 22· ·I read that correctly? 23· ·what we've been looking at.· "Over the duration of the 23· · · · A.· ·Yes. 24· ·contract, there are often minor modifications that may 24· · · · Q.· ·Is that still as true today as it was in 2015? 25· ·adjust the bed-day rate and overall contract pricing." 25· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·1· ·after the minimum guarantee, right? Page 224 Page 226 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay, "Every one of these calculations and ·2· · · · A.· ·Oh, okay. ·2· ·considerations can and will affect the overall cost ·3· · · · Q.· ·Is that right? ·3· ·calculation associated with a facility's labor costs." ·4· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·4· ·Did I read that correctly? ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay, I've read it correctly and that's still ·5· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·6· ·true? ·6· · · · Q.· ·Is that true? ·7· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·7· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·8· · · · Q.· ·All right, then you describe a facility ·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay, if you have to pay someone to do a job ·9· ·staffing plan.· Do you see in paragraph fourteen? ·9· ·and then you for - let's say the prevailing wage change, 10· · · · A.· ·Yes. 10· ·it goes up.· That's an example of what you're talking 11· · · · Q.· ·And you explain that -- Well, first do you 11· ·about when it says every one of these calculations -12· ·remember when we were looking at the minimum staffing 12· ·I'm just giving you an example to make sure I 13· ·plan of fourteen fifty-five beds and the max staffing 13· ·understand, that every one of these calculations and 14· ·plan of nineteen-forty beds? 14· ·considerations can and will affect the overall cost 15· · · · A.· ·I do. 15· ·calculation associated with the facility's labor costs? 16· · · · Q.· ·Is that a facility staffing plan? 16· ·So is that an example of one of the - like one of the 17· · · · A.· ·Yes. 17· ·things that you have to take into consideration in this 18· · · · Q.· ·Is that what you're referring to here when you 18· ·calculation of the labor costs? 19· ·say a facility staffing plan? 19· · · · A.· ·The changing -20· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 20· · · · Q.· ·Yes, sir. 21· ·BY MR. FREE: 21· · · · A.· ·-- wage, yes. 22· · · · Q.· ·Or not that specific document, but that's the 22· · · · Q.· ·Okay, what about if you're required to give an 23· ·kind of document you're talking about, right? 23· ·employee some type of fringe benefit like an individual, 24· · · · A.· ·Yes. 24· ·like an employer mandate or something for insurance, 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Thank you. 25· ·would that affect your labor costs? ·1· ·Is that right?· That's in paragraph thirteen. 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 59 of 81 Page ID #:2516 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 227–230 Page 227 Page 229 ·1· ·competitive contract.· Do you see that? ·2· · · · Q.· ·And what about if you were required to give ·2· · · · A.· ·I do. ·3· ·some form of paid time off, that would affect your labor ·3· · · · Q.· ·But that wasn't a detention contract? ·4· ·costs? ·4· · · · A.· ·No, but it was an example of a competitive ·5· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·5· ·contract. ·6· · · · Q.· ·And similarly if you had to pay greater ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I see. ·7· ·payroll tax rates because they change, for example, that ·7· · · · · · ·The next one is Guantanamo Bay it looks like, ·8· ·would affect the labor costs? ·8· ·a migrant operation center in GTMO?· Do you see that? ·9· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·9· · · · A.· ·Yes. 10· · · · Q.· ·It says, "In so much as the - inasmuch as the 10· · · · Q.· ·That was in 2011? 11· ·labor costs," I'm still at page - excuse me, paragraph 11· · · · A.· ·Yes. 12· ·fourteen.· "Inasmuch as the labor costs are such a major 12· · · · Q.· ·Okay, above that in paragraph twenty you 13· ·part of the overall facility pricing, these models are 13· ·describe the process of ICE -- I'll just tell you what 14· ·highly proprietary and confidential.· GEO's proposed 14· ·you said.· You said, "Based on my information and 15· ·staffing plans submitted with its bid become part of its 15· ·belief, there are four factors that affect ICE CDF 16· ·contract."· Do you see where I read that? 16· ·that affect competition for ICE CDF contracts."· Have I 17· · · · A.· ·I do. 17· ·read that correctly? 18· · · · Q.· ·Did I read it correctly? 18· · · · A.· ·Yes. 19· · · · A.· ·Yes. 19· · · · Q.· ·The first one is, "ICE identifies a restricted 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay, if you could look at paragraph 20· ·geographic radius typically fifty miles in reasonable 21· ·twenty-one you've given four examples of competitive 21· ·proximity to the permanent ICE field office or an 22· ·contracts in the DHS ICE market.· Do you see that? 22· ·airport that ICE uses for detainee transportation."· Did 23· · · · A.· ·Yes. 23· ·I read that correctly? 24· · · · Q.· ·All right, are these four examples facilities 24· · · · A.· ·You did. 25· ·that -- So the first one is the 2015 contract detention 25· · · · Q.· ·"Such locations and participating airports are ·1· · · · A.· ·Yes. Page 228 ·1· ·facility in the Houston area.· Did I read that Page 230 ·1· ·relatively static but nonetheless drive the geographic ·2· ·correctly? ·2· ·requirements for the proposed CDF."· Did I read that ·3· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·3· ·correctly? ·4· · · · Q.· ·You've listed the known competitors as GEO, ·4· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·5· ·CCA and Emerald? ·5· · · · Q.· ·I'm going to take a pause. ·6· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·6· · · · · · ·Do you remember the RFI that ICE put out that ·7· · · · Q.· ·The second one involves it appears Southern ·7· ·we talked about earlier for the State of California? ·8· ·Border Transportation.· Do you see that? ·8· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·9· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·9· · · · Q.· ·Is it geographically limited to fifty miles in 10· · · · Q.· ·Is that a detention contract? 10· ·radius from an ICE field office for the airport? 11· · · · A.· ·No.· It's a transportation contract. 11· · · · A.· ·I don't recall. 12· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you use the same staffing and bed-day 12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Thank you. 13· ·situation with transportation contracts as you do 13· · · · · · ·All right, the second is, "The prescribed ICE 14· ·detention? 14· ·geographic area the acceptable radius is regulated by 15· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry? 15· ·local county and city ordinances that restrict the 16· · · · Q.· ·ICE -- Okay, so when we're talking about 16· ·establishment of such a facility and are subject to 17· ·bed-day rates and per diems -- 17· ·vocal opposition by neighboring residents."· Do you see 18· · · · A.· ·Right. 18· ·that? 19· · · · Q.· ·-- I understood all of the staffing plan 19· · · · A.· ·Yes. 20· ·bed-day rate stuff that you said in this declaration to 20· · · · Q.· ·So that's your second of the four factors 21· ·pertain to detention centers, right? 21· ·affecting the competition for ICE CDF contracts, right? 22· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.· (Affirmative response).· Correct. 22· · · · A.· ·Yes. 23· · · · Q.· ·So here I see a transportation cost and it 23· · · · Q.· ·When you wrote this or now do you understand 24· ·says the price and staffing plan are determining factors 24· ·that there is any contractor that would be more 25· ·in GEO's loss of the Southern Border Transportation 25· ·susceptible, that would be at a competitive disadvantage 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 60 of 81 Page ID #:2517 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 231–234 Page 231 Page 233 ·1· · · · A.· ·-- in which -·2· ·by neighboring residents? ·2· · · · Q.· ·All right, the third factor is, "The cap - the ·3· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·3· ·third CDFs are capital intensive and typically cost ·4· ·BY MR. FREE: ·4· ·several tens of millions of dollars due to ICE's ·5· · · · Q.· ·I guess I just don't understand -- Go ahead, ·5· ·objectives in achieving economies of scale pricing ·6· ·sir. ·6· ·through larger facilities and the application of the new ·7· · · · A.· ·No.· No.· I was going ask -·7· ·ICE 2011 Performance-Based National Detention ·8· · · · Q.· ·Do you understand my question?· You look ·8· ·Standards."· Why is that a competitive factor? ·9· ·confused. ·9· · · · A.· ·The amount of capital that needs to be 10· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I don't. 10· ·invested could possibly limit some companies from 11· · · · Q.· ·I don't know why - I just don't know why 11· ·participating. 12· ·that - these two things affect - why competitors are 12· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and then the fourth, "The typical 13· ·actually like at a disadvantage as to each other as to 13· ·contract term of one base year plus several one year 14· ·these two things.· Can you explain that? 14· ·options creates a very risky investment thesis for many 15· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 15· ·potential competitors."· Did I read that correctly? 16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So your question is why is this 16· · · · A.· ·You did. 17· · · · a consideration? 17· · · · Q.· ·Was that true then? 18· ·BY MR. FREE: 18· · · · A.· ·Yes. 19· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· Why is that the four factors that 19· · · · Q.· ·Is it still true now? 20· ·affects competition price among CDF contracts among the 20· · · · A.· ·Yes. 21· ·competitors that you've listed, CCA, MTC, CSC and 21· · · · Q.· ·Can you think of any ICE GEO detention 22· ·Emerald. 22· ·contract where this risk has actually been realized? 23· · · · A.· ·If you have to site a new facility depending 23· · · · A.· ·There have been facilities that have been 24· ·on as I said in there the ordinances or statutes or what 24· ·discontinued.· I just don't recall where and how many. 25· ·regulations may not allow for such a facility to be 25· · · · Q.· ·Facilities between ICE and GEO? ·1· ·because of these local regulations and vocal opposition Page 232 ·1· ·built, I mean that has to be one of the considerations ·2· ·of where you would site a facility to qualify for ICE ·3· ·consideration or a government agency's consideration. ·4· · · · · · ·You could have a facility that is - meets all ·5· ·their standards but it's outside their radius and ·6· ·wouldn't qualify.· Trying to site one closer in a county ·7· ·that is not receptive would impact your ability to bid. ·8· · · · Q.· ·When you say you, you mean GEO? ·9· · · · A.· ·GEO or a company's ability to bid. 10· · · · Q.· ·I understand what you mean.· I mean it, too. 11· · · · · · ·The - and you're saying that that -- I think 12· ·you're saying here that that could actually affect one 13· ·of these competitors more than the other.· If it's one 14· ·of the four factors then GEO could be more at a 15· ·disadvantage based - based on, for instance, vocal 16· ·opposition by neighboring residents than say maybe 17· ·Emerald? 18· · · · A.· ·More disadvantage? 19· · · · Q.· ·Or less.· Maybe they have a better position. 20· · · · A.· ·I think it could be either or. 21· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so you're saying it's variable as to the 22· ·company based -23· · · · A.· ·Not to the company but I guess to the - to the 24· ·geographic area -25· · · · Q.· ·Okay. Page 234 ·1· · · · A.· ·ICE - ICE and GEO or ICE in the private ·2· ·sector? ·3· · · · Q.· ·I'm asking - asking specifically about ICE and ·4· ·GEO's contracts.· I'm asking if you know whether there's ·5· ·ever been a situation where there's a contract term of ·6· ·one base - one base year plus several one year options ·7· ·and then ICE did not exercise one or more of those ·8· ·options in its contract with GEO, do you know of any ·9· ·situation in which that's happened? 10· · · · A.· ·Not in my time there, no. 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay, what would cause ICE to do that, if you 12· ·know? 13· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to form. 14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't.· I don't know. 15· ·BY MR. FREE: 16· · · · Q.· ·Would non-performance or inadequate 17· ·performance be a part of that risk?· By the contractor I 18· ·mean. 19· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 20· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I think that could be a factor 21· · · · that's considered, yes. 22· ·BY MR. FREE: 23· · · · Q.· ·What about health or safety issues that were 24· ·created by the contractor's failure to comply, could 25· ·that be a factor in ICE choosing not to exercise one or 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 61 of 81 Page ID #:2518 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 235–238 Page 235 Page 237 ·1· ·more of its option years? ·1· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·2· · · · A.· ·It could be a factor. ·2· · · · Q.· ·Are you aware of any responses to ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay, does GEO in its operations take that ·3· ·competitively bid intergovernmental service agreements ·4· ·into consideration in computing these contracts, that ·4· ·from ICE that GEO has responded to? ·5· ·risk? ·5· · · · A.· ·That we have responded to?· I don't recall. ·6· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay, I will save -- There's one that you list ·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I think what we're talking about with ·7· ·in this I think right below that in 2003.· You might not ·8· ·Adelanto is in paragraph twenty-three, it's on page ·8· ·remember that just right off the bat, but do you see as ·9· ·seven.· You testified under oath, "ICE also obtains ·9· ·an example in October, 2003 this is in paragraph 10· ·detention services under IGSAs awarded to counties and 10· ·twenty-three at the bottom of page seven.· Do you see 11· ·that?· So I'm here. 11· ·cities.· ICE selects specific facilities, in some cases 12· ·between competing city or county facilities that are 12· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· No.· No.· I -- 13· ·geographically close to each other.· While the IGSA 13· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· You're just reading the whole sentence? 14· ·process is not as formal and structured as a competitive 14· · · · A.· ·Yeah. 15· ·procurement, the evaluation and award of an IGSA are 15· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so, "As an example in October, 2003 GEO 16· ·based on similar factors, i.e., detention capacity, 16· ·responded to a county RFP -- 17· ·compliance with National Detention Standards and ICE 17· · · · A.· ·Right. 18· ·policy and procedures, the level and types of services 18· · · · Q.· ·-- to provide management services for the 19· ·provided and most importantly - most importantly the 19· ·Reeves.· GEO was selected to manage the Reeves County 20· ·daily per diem rate/cost."· Is that - is that true? 20· ·Detention Complex which at the time provided services to 21· · · · A.· ·Yes. 21· ·the BOP, Bureau of Prisons, under an IGSA."· Did I read 22· · · · Q.· ·Okay, it was true then, it's still true now? 22· ·that right? 23· · · · A.· ·Yes. 23· · · · A.· ·Correct. 24· · · · Q.· ·Do those competitive factors -- Excuse me. 24· · · · Q.· ·"Similarly in 2007, GEO responded to an RFP to 25· · · · · · ·Do the -- Turn back to paragraph twelve, 25· ·provide maintenance and operation -- Similarly in 2007," Page 236 ·1· ·pricing information and staffing plans.· This is the one Page 238 ·1· ·I'm sorry, "GEO responded to an RFP to provide ·2· ·about the bed-day rate that we read.· Do you see that? ·2· ·maintenance and operation of a facility to house Federal ·3· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·3· ·prisoners from Montgomery County, Texas."· Do you see ·4· · · · Q.· ·Is everything that you've written in paragraph ·4· ·that? ·5· ·twelve regarding the bed-day rate and what's included in ·5· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·6· ·the cost applicable to intergovernmental service ·6· · · · Q.· ·Did I read that correctly? ·7· ·agreement contracts -- ·7· · · · A.· ·You did. ·8· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·8· · · · Q.· ·When you say Federal prisoners, I think you're ·9· ·BY MR. FREE: ·9· ·distinguishing prisoners in Federal custody, in other 10· · · · Q.· ·-- like what you've described in twenty-three? 10· ·words, criminally convicted or criminally detained 11· · · · A.· ·Yes. 11· ·prisoners or pretrial detainees from immigration 12· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so when you say most importantly the 12· ·detainees.· Is that the distinction that you're making 13· ·daily per diem rate/cost I can know what you mean when I 13· ·by saying Federal prisoners? 14· ·look at paragraph twelve, right? 14· · · · A.· ·Yes. 15· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 15· · · · Q.· ·Okay, you are excluding immigrant detention - 16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 16· ·civil immigration detention from that definition, right? 17· ·BY MR. FREE: 17· · · · A.· ·Correct. 18· · · · Q.· ·Thank you. 18· · · · Q.· ·Okay, immigration detention is civil, not 19· · · · · · ·And then, "Subcontracts to provide services as 19· ·criminal, right? 20· ·an operator on behalf of a county or a city under IGSA 20· · · · A.· ·Correct. 21· ·can also be competitively bid."· Do you see that? 21· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and ICE has the standards in place to 22· · · · A.· ·Yes. 22· ·recognize that distinction, right? 23· · · · Q.· ·Did I read that correctly? 23· · · · A.· ·Correct. 24· · · · A.· ·Yes. 24· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and if you're in immigration detention 25· · · · Q.· ·All right, is that true? 25· ·you're not there as punishment; correct? 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 62 of 81 Page ID #:2519 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 239–242 Page 239 Page 241 ·1· · · · A.· ·That is correct. ·1· · · · Q.· ·Is that true? ·2· · · · Q.· ·And there's - it might not even necessarily be ·2· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·3· ·because you've - because you are going to be deported? ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay, then and now, right? ·4· ·In other words, lots of people who are in immigration ·4· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·5· ·detention end up getting out and winning their cases, ·5· · · · Q.· ·This - the business hasn't changed since ·6· ·right? ·6· ·you're discussing it in 2015, right? ·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.· That's an outcome. ·7· · · · A.· ·It is not. ·8· · · · Q.· ·So the purpose of the detention -- You know, ·8· · · · Q.· ·In terms of this particular element of the ·9· ·would you agree that the purpose of immigration ·9· ·staffing plan being - that's the labor being the most 10· ·detention, civil immigration detention is to ensure 10· ·important part of your per diem? 11· ·that, you know, some people who have been ordered 11· · · · A.· ·It's -- 12· ·removed are going to be present for ICE's execution of 12· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 13· ·their removal order, number one, would you agree with 13· · · · · · ·Go ahead. 14· ·that? 14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Sorry. 15· · · · A.· ·Yes. 15· · · · · · ·It's been the same. 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and then second that for some people who 16· ·BY MR. FREE: 17· ·are either ineligible for a bond by statute or who don't 17· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and then you say, "A competitor could 18· ·qualify because the judge says I don't think you're 18· ·develop a cost model of the staffing component of GEO's 19· ·going to show up or you're a danger to the community 19· ·bed-day rate as described in paragraph fourteen above," 20· ·that those people are housed as well in secure 20· ·we've been through that and "It could then," the 21· ·facilities? 21· ·competitor, "Could then identify the relative 22· · · · A.· ·That would be correct. 22· ·percentages of the remaining approximately 23· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, so awaiting your removal proceeding or 23· ·thirty-five percent in direct and indirect costs with a 24· ·awaiting your deportation is the reason you're in an 24· ·percentage breakdown estimate of GEO's food, health 25· ·immigration detention center, right, civil immigration 25· ·care, supplies, utilities, maintenance, Page 240 ·1· ·detention center? ·2· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·3· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. ·4· ·BY MR. FREE: ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Okay, so I want to look at paragraph ·6· ·twenty-four on page eight and I'm looking at the fifth ·7· ·line down that begins - it's the first full sentence ·8· ·that says, "The bed-day rate broadly includes all daily ·9· ·operating costs of the facility, including personnel, 10· ·food, health care, supplies, utilities, maintenance, 11· ·infrastructure, depreciation, cost of capital, overhead 12· ·and profit."· Did I read that correctly? 13· · · · A.· ·You did. 14· · · · Q.· ·Was that true then? 15· · · · A.· ·Yes. 16· · · · Q.· ·Is it true now? 17· · · · A.· ·Yes. 18· · · · Q.· ·All right, so a - the next sentence says, "A 19· ·staffing plan is the most important component of a 20· ·contractor's overall pricing model because the costs 21· ·associated with the overall staffing of a facility 22· ·constitute approximately sixty-five percent or more of 23· ·the facility's total operating costs."· Did I read that 24· ·correctly? 25· · · · A.· ·You did. Page 242 ·1· ·infrastructure -- Utilities, maintenance, ·2· ·infrastructure, depreciation cost of capital, overhead ·3· ·profit."· Is that true? ·4· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·5· · · · Q.· ·That's a competitor sort of ·6· ·reverse-engineering what GEO's doing if it had GEO's ·7· ·staffing plan, right? ·8· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·9· · · · Q.· ·They can take your sixty-five percent labor 10· ·costs and then they can take the other 11· ·thirty-five percent and attempt to figure out what the 12· ·relative percentages are in the direct and indirect 13· ·costs captured in the thirty-five percent food, health 14· ·care, supplies utilities, maintenance, infrastructure 15· ·depreciation, cost of capital, overhead and profit and 16· ·they can try and underbid you, right? 17· · · · A.· ·Correct. 18· · · · Q.· ·All right, and you can do the same to a 19· ·competitor? 20· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 21· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· If - if we had access to that 22· · · · information. 23· ·BY MR. FREE: 24· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, you would need their staffing plan? 25· · · · A.· ·Right. 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 63 of 81 Page ID #:2520 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 243–246 Page 243 Page 245 ·1· · · · Q.· ·So the staffing plan tells you how you could ·1· · · · A.· ·No. ·2· ·do that? ·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you know whether any injury has ·3· · · · A.· ·In large part it does. ·3· ·happened? ·4· · · · A.· ·No. ·4· · · · Q.· ·I guess. ·5· · · · · · ·So you could reverse-engineer a bed-day rate, ·6· ·right? ·7· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·6· · · · A.· ·Nor was I aware that any staffing plans or ·7· ·bed-day rates were released, so I wasn't aware of that ·8· ·outcome. ·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· You could. ·9· ·BY MR. FREE: ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay, in fact, you said in this declaration 10· ·essentially that if they were released then a competitor 10· · · · Q.· ·Okay, have you, you ever? 11· · · · A.· ·No. 12· · · · Q.· ·Okay, have you done it just as like a thought 13· ·exercise? 11· ·could reverse-engineer it and underbid you, right? 12· · · · A.· ·Yes. 14· · · · A.· ·No. 13· · · · Q.· ·Has GEO's competitive position suffered 14· ·vis-a-vis - I think CoreCivic is the only real market 15· · · · Q.· ·All right, then you say in twenty-seven, 15· ·competitor with the capital, right? 16· ·paragraph twenty-seven on page nine the second sentence, 16· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 17· ·"GEO's pricing strategy" -- I'm reading part of the 17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I would say that's accurate. 18· ·BY MR. FREE: 18· ·sentence. 19· · · · · · ·It says, "GEO's pricing strategy, based on a 20· ·proprietary staffing plan is the same" and I'll read the 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· We're going to look at a document we'll 20· ·mark as Exhibit Eighteen. 21· ·whole paragraph so you know what we're talking about. 21· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Exhibit 18 was marked) 22· · · · · · ·"In some procurements, GEO has no competition 22· ·BY MR. FREE: 23· · · · Q.· ·This appears to be a supplement - supplemental 23· ·for CDF solicitations and in other procurements for CDF 24· ·solicitations it faces competition."· Did I read that 24· ·declaration by you.· Do you see that at the top? 25· · · · A.· ·Yes. 25· ·correctly? Page 244 Page 246 ·1· · · · A.· ·You did. ·1· · · · Q.· ·I'm going to represent to you that it was ·2· · · · Q.· ·Is that true? ·2· ·filed in the same case, the Detention Watch Network and ·3· · · · A.· ·That is true. ·3· ·Center For Constitutional Rights versus ICE and DHS.· Do ·4· · · · Q.· ·In the California City versus Adelanto RFI it ·4· ·you see - do you see that at the very top? ·5· ·might be a procurement if ICE puts out an RFP that we ·5· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·6· ·were talking about earlier today.· Do you remember when ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay, on page nine you signed this ·7· ·we were talking about that in the deposition earlier? ·7· ·declaration? ·8· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·8· · · · A.· ·I did. ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so that could be a situation in which ·9· · · · Q.· ·Do you see your signature -- 10· ·GEO does face competition, right? 10· · · · A.· ·I do. 11· · · · A.· ·Yes. 11· · · · Q.· ·-- on page nine? 12· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 12· · · · A.· ·Yes. 13· · · · · · ·All right, in twenty-eight it says - actually 13· · · · Q.· ·You signed it on February 26th, 2016.· Do you 14· ·look at paragraph thirty-five.· It's the last page.· It 14· ·see that? 15· ·says, "Therefore, the ultimate outcome of releasing the 15· · · · A.· ·Yes. 16· ·ICE records pursuant to the Plaintiff's FOIA request 16· · · · Q.· ·Have you seen this declaration since you 17· ·will not only be substantial competitive injury to The 17· ·signed it? 18· ·GEO Group but to all other detention facilities both 18· · · · A.· ·No. 19· ·public and private."· That's what you wrote on 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, again you explained you're the SVP for 20· ·December 22nd, 2015; is that right? 20· ·Business Development at GEO, it's based on personal 21· · · · A.· ·Yes. 21· ·knowledge, you're the person responsible for proposals 22· · · · Q.· ·As you sit here today can you identify any 22· ·at GEO. 23· ·injury that GEO has suffered from the release of the 23· · · · · · ·Now I'd like to turn your attention to page 24· ·bed-day rates and staffing plans in this FOIA 24· ·three.· In paragraph six at the bottom the final 25· ·litigation? 25· ·sentence it says, "Such harm would result from a 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 64 of 81 Page ID #:2521 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 247–250 Page 247 Page 249 ·1· ·competitor using GEO's proprietary bed-day rates and ·1· ·appropriate taxes."· Did I read that correctly? ·2· ·staffing plans to reverse-engineer the build-up of GEO's ·2· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·3· ·pricing and arrive at a lower per diem bed-day rate than ·3· · · · Q.· ·Is that true? ·4· ·GEO's expected per diem rate."· Do you see that? ·4· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·5· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Is that a complete summary of the non labor ·6· · · · Q.· ·Did I read that correctly? ·6· ·whether it's exempt or non-exempt nonprofit component ·7· · · · A.· ·You did. ·7· ·parts of a per diem rate? ·8· · · · Q.· ·Is that true? ·8· · · · A.· ·Is it complete?· I couldn't say if it was a ·9· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·9· ·hundred percent complete, but it's -- 10· · · · Q.· ·Okay, you then say in paragraph seven, "Using 10· · · · Q.· ·Is there anything that you can think of as you 11· ·the 'CCA staffing plan," and that's in quotes, "For a 11· ·sit here today that's left out of this list? 12· ·state contracted Correctional facility, which I 12· · · · A.· ·Not at this moment. 13· ·understand was attached to one of the filings in this 13· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and then the fourth part is profit, 14· ·case (as it was released in response to a State Freedom 14· ·right? 15· ·of Information Request) it is possible to specifically 15· · · · A.· ·Yes.· That's what it says there. 16· ·show how a competitor could use this information to 16· · · · Q.· ·So I just want to make sure I understand, 17· ·reverse-engineer a contractor's proprietary per diem 17· ·parts one and two are labor, right?· Parts one and two 18· ·rates and cause competitive harm in competing for a CDF 18· ·you've said contractors proprietary bed-day or per diem 19· ·procurement contract.· The same analysis could be done 19· ·rate in an amount composed of several elements, elements 20· ·using a GEO staffing plan such as one of those attached 20· ·one and two are labor, correct? 21· ·to its contracts with ICE."· Do you see that? 21· · · · A.· ·Correct. 22· · · · A.· ·Yes. 22· · · · Q.· ·Three is basically overhead, your costs, 23· · · · Q.· ·And did I read that correctly? 23· ·correct? 24· · · · A.· ·You did. 24· · · · A.· ·Correct. 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so in the next paragraph, paragraph 25· · · · Q.· ·And four is profit, right? Page 248 Page 250 ·1· ·eight you say -- Is that true before we go on? ·1· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·2· · · · A.· ·That paragraph? ·2· · · · Q.· ·All right, so labor is sixty-five percent or ·3· · · · Q.· ·Yeah. ·3· ·more of the per diem based on your testimony, right? ·4· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·4· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Everything is okay.· Cool. ·5· · · · Q.· ·And then costs and profit are ·6· · · · · · ·The next paragraph you've listed four parts of ·6· ·thirty-five percent or less, correct? ·7· ·a proprietary bed-day or per diem rate and they're ·7· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·8· ·composed of several elements per part.· The first part ·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay, of the per diem rate, right? ·9· ·is labor - "Labor charges for non-exempt hourly staff ·9· · · · · · ·"In order to reverse-engineer a contractor's 10· ·used to operate the facility."· Do you see that? 10· ·proprietary per diem rates, a competitor could first use 11· · · · A.· ·Yes. 11· ·the contractor's staffing plan to break down the 12· · · · Q.· ·Is that true? 12· ·contractor's proprietary per diem rates into these 13· · · · A.· ·Yes. 13· ·component parts," right? 14· · · · Q.· ·The second part is, "Labor charges for exempt 14· · · · A.· ·Yes. 15· ·salaried staff in management and supervisory positions." 15· · · · Q.· ·And so if you working for GEO were trying to 16· ·Do you see that? 16· ·deliver to the Federal Government, specifically ICE, a 17· · · · A.· ·Yes. 17· ·lower per diem rate than CoreCivic, for example, or 18· · · · Q.· ·True? 18· ·Emerald or MTC you would benefit from saving money on 19· · · · A.· ·Yes. 19· ·any one of these four component parts?· In other words, 20· · · · Q.· ·The third part is -- Sorry -- "Medical 20· ·if you lower any one of these four elements of the per 21· ·services and supplies, food service, inmate expenses, 21· ·diem rate then the per diem rate will be - you know, it 22· ·security expenses, utilities (based on local research on 22· ·will go down, right? 23· ·rates), program expenses, repairs and maintenance, 23· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 24· ·leases, insurance, professional fees, personnel 24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 25· ·expenses, travel expenses, administration expenses and 25· ·BY MR. FREE: 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 65 of 81 Page ID #:2522 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 251–254 Page 251 Page 253 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so if you have an option between two per ·2· ·that's element two, the per diem rate goes lower? ·2· ·diem rates and one of them has a ten percent profit ·3· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·3· ·margin, the other one has a twelve percent profit margin ·4· · · · Q.· ·Spend less on non-exempt labor, element one, ·4· ·and you think that there's two ways to -- Let me say ·5· ·it goes lower? ·5· ·this a different way so it's really clear, okay? ·6· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·6· · · · · · ·Let's say you can arrive at the same per diem ·7· · · · Q.· ·Costs, food service, inmate expenses, medical ·7· ·rate as you, GEO can arrive at the same per diem rate ·8· ·services and supplies, if you spend less on that your ·8· ·weighting these four elements differently.· Do you ·9· ·per diem rate goes lower, correct? ·9· ·understand the premise of -10· · · · A.· ·Yes. 10· · · · A.· ·I do. 11· · · · Q.· ·And if you take less of a profit, that's 11· · · · Q.· ·-- of what I'm about to ask? 12· ·element four, your per diem rate goes lower, right? 12· · · · · · ·Okay, so you know, you can - you can come out 13· · · · A.· ·Yes. 13· ·with a hundred dollar per diem spending a little bit 14· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and you have the incentive to lower a 14· ·more on labor and a little bit less on profit or you can 15· ·per diem rate as GEO in a competitive market environment 15· ·come out with a hundred dollar per diem spending a 16· ·so that you can get the contract, correct? 16· ·little bit less on labor and a little bit more on profit 17· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 17· ·but you know you're going to be able to do a hundred 18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 18· ·dollar per diem.· Do you understand the premise, the 19· ·BY MR. FREE: 19· ·second premise? 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay, would you agree that generally all 20· · · · A.· ·I do. 21· ·things being equal the - the lowest bid will be the one 21· · · · Q.· ·Okay, you have a fiduciary duty to choose the 22· ·most likely to be approved by the government? 22· ·second one, right? 23· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 23· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· All things being equal all the 24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I have a responsibility to be 25· · · · evaluation factors being equal? 25· · · · able to win the procurement.· That's my role and ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so if you spend less on exempt labor Page 252 ·1· ·BY MR. FREE: ·2· · · · Q.· ·Yes, sir. ·3· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·4· · · · Q.· ·So I'm bracketing out like a contractor with ·5· ·just a pitiful performance record, you know, maybe their ·6· ·facility burned down or something like that.· I'm ·7· ·bracketing them out, but if everything else is basically ·8· ·equal per diem is going to determine whether GEO gets ·9· ·the contract over a competitor? 10· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 11· ·BY MR. FREE: 12· · · · Q.· ·Right? 13· · · · A.· ·Yes. 14· · · · Q.· ·Okay, now GEO also has a fiduciary duty to its 15· ·shareholders to maximize profit, correct? 16· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know about maximize 18· · · · profit, but deliver profit, sure. 19· ·BY MR. FREE: 20· · · · Q.· ·Well, if you -21· · · · A.· ·I don't know what that means, maximize profit. 22· · · · Q.· ·To get the most that you can. 23· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· The same objection. 24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 25· ·BY MR. FREE: Page 254 ·1· · · · responsibility. ·2· ·BY MR. FREE: ·3· · · · Q.· ·I - I don't think you answered my question. ·4· · · · A.· ·Okay. ·5· · · · Q.· ·It's okay. ·6· · · · · · ·The per diem rate's the same, so the weighting ·7· ·of it doesn't have anything to do with whether you win ·8· ·because we've just discussed that all things being equal ·9· ·between the two competitors the per diem rate with the 10· ·lower - the competitor with the lower per diem rate is 11· ·going to win, right? 12· · · · A.· ·Correct. 13· · · · Q.· ·Okay, let's say you know this one hundred 14· ·dollars is probably going to be the most competitive 15· ·because you've done your due diligence, you've 16· ·reversed-engineered if you can as much as possible what 17· ·these four elements look like for your competitors, 18· ·right?· Let's say you've done that, which I think you 19· ·do. 20· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 21· ·BY MR. FREE: 22· · · · Q.· ·Right? 23· · · · A.· ·Correct. 24· · · · Q.· ·Do you do that? 25· · · · A.· ·Correct.· Correct. 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 66 of 81 Page ID #:2523 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 255–258 Page 255 ·1· · · · Q.· ·You do? ·2· · · · A.· ·We do an analysis to determine, right. ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and we as GEO? ·4· · · · A.· ·We as GEO. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·6· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·7· · · · Q.· ·So as between a per diem rate of a hundred ·8· ·dollars that has a twelve percent profit and one of a ·9· ·hundred dollars that has an eight percent profit GEO 10· ·would want the twelve percent profit, right? 11· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· We would -- It's just not as 13· · · · simple as that. 14· · · · · · ·If we're submitting a proposal they also look 15· · · · at the - the staffing and whether or not that 16· · · · staffing is adequate and if your staffing costs are 17· · · · lower because you're reducing the number of staff 18· · · · then that could be a factor in the evaluation, so 19· · · · while the profit may be more you may have hurt 20· · · · yourself by not meeting all of the requirements of 21· · · · the RFP. 22· ·BY MR. FREE: 23· · · · Q.· ·Is there any limitation on other than - I 24· ·think what you've just described is ICE might not like 25· ·your staffing model and they might decide I'll take a Page 257 ·1· · · · accurate as possible. ·2· ·BY MR. FREE: ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Well, let's do what you did.· In ·4· ·paragraph twelve, page five you've talked about how you ·5· ·would reverse-engineer a per diem for a competitor, "The ·6· ·first step is to evaluate the labor portion of the ·7· ·incumbent's per diem bed-day rate for non-exempt hourly ·8· ·staff," right? ·9· · · · A.· ·Yes. 10· · · · Q.· ·And then you do the second - in paragraph 11· ·thirteen you do the second thing - you do the same 12· ·exercise for each non-exempt position of the plan, 13· ·right? 14· · · · A.· ·Correct. 15· · · · Q.· ·And then next you look at your own staffing 16· ·plan and expected labor costs and you identify places 17· ·you propose to eliminate, right? 18· · · · A.· ·Correct. 19· · · · Q.· ·And then in paragraph fifteen you say that in 20· ·order to underbid CCA GEO would propose eliminating 38.8 21· ·full-time equivalent positions, right? 22· · · · A.· ·Yes. 23· · · · Q.· ·"These reductions reflect GEO confidential and 24· ·proprietary approach to managing such facilities," 25· ·correct? Page 256 ·1· ·more expensive per day rate than have this bad staffing ·1· · · · A.· ·Correct. Page 258 ·2· ·model.· Is that a fair summary of what you've just told ·2· · · · Q.· ·All right, and then based on that, the cost ·3· ·me? ·3· ·savings that you're getting from eliminating those ·4· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·4· ·thirty positions you underbid them by two dollars and ·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That is fair. ·5· ·forty-four cents in paragraph sixteen.· It's the last ·6· ·BY MR. FREE: ·6· ·page, the last sentence in paragraph sixteen, right? ·7· · · · Q.· ·All right, this company's taking too much ·7· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·8· ·profit and they're skimping on labor and so we're going ·8· · · · Q.· ·All right, is it fair to say generally that ·9· ·to go with the other people who are taking less profit ·9· ·the less you spend on labor the lower the per diem rate 10· ·but they're charging us more, is that the hypothetical 10· ·is going to be? 11· ·that you were describing? 11· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 12· · · · A.· ·I -- 12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I think that's fair. 13· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 13· ·BY MR. FREE: 14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know if it's an 14· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and is it fair to say that if you can 15· · · · evaluation of the percentage of profit.· It's more 15· ·weight the elements with those four elements that you've 16· · · · of the evaluation of whether or not that staffing 16· ·identified within the per diem so that you have - GEO 17· · · · plan that was submitted meets the requirements. 17· ·has the labor costs as low as possible, the element -- 18· ·BY MR. FREE: 18· ·So that's elements one and two -- The operations costs 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, but as a competitive bidder GEO is 19· ·as low as possible, that's element three, you would want 20· ·incentivized to have the labor sixty-five percent of 20· ·element four, the profit to be as high as possible?· Is 21· ·part of it's bed-day rate that is labor to have that be 21· ·that a fair description of the way GEO would put 22· ·as lean as possible subject to the requirements that ICE 22· ·together the per day rate? 23· ·has put out, right? 23· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 24· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I would say that profit has to 25· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I would say not lean but 25· · · · be acceptable to the client. 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 67 of 81 Page ID #:2524 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 259–262 Page 259 Page 261 ·1· ·BY MR. FREE: ·1· · · · Q.· ·Attempts to identify a competitor's profit ·2· · · · Q.· ·Right, but apart from that what I've said is ·2· ·based on its research as to elements one - one through ·3· ·accurate? ·3· ·three so that you can then deliver a lower per day rate, ·4· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·4· ·GEO can develop a lower per day rate in response to a ·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I believe so. ·5· ·proposal? ·6· ·BY MR. FREE: ·6· · · · A.· ·No.· That answer is no. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Thank you. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·8· · · · · · ·And I think what I've said is reflected in ·8· · · · A.· ·We don't focus on what the competitor's profit ·9· ·paragraph nineteen where you say on behalf of GEO on ·9· ·is. 10· ·page seven it says, "The next step involves estimating 10· · · · Q.· ·What do you focus on? 11· ·non-labor expenses including medical services and 11· · · · A.· ·Mostly on what we think the per diem rate is - 12· ·supplies, food service, inmate expenses" and so forth. 12· ·is going to be.· Again I mean depending on the 13· ·Do you see where you said that? 13· ·procurement and the location, the type of facility, how 14· · · · A.· ·In paragraph nineteen? 14· ·it's laid out, et cetera could all drive, you know, 15· · · · Q.· ·Uh-huh. 15· ·factors into - into the per diem, so you look at a 16· · · · A.· ·Yes. 16· ·facility that's thirty years old versus a facility 17· · · · Q.· ·You say, "These costs are generally the same 17· ·that's five years old.· The thirty year facility's going 18· ·for all CDF market competitors and are based on market 18· ·to be more labor intensive than the five year facility 19· ·rates."· It's the second to last sentence. 19· ·five year old facility so, I mean those are the types of 20· · · · A.· ·If we're competing for the same area? 20· ·factors we - we research and analyze to determine where 21· · · · Q.· ·Uh-huh. 21· ·we think they're going to come out on a per diem. 22· · · · A.· ·Yes. 22· · · · Q.· ·And by we you mean GEO? 23· · · · Q.· ·And I want to be really clear we're talking 23· · · · A.· ·GEO. 24· ·about ICE detention facilities.· I know that there's 24· · · · · · ·I'm sorry. 25· ·some overlap in this declaration.· For instance, you're 25· · · · Q.· ·It's okay.· I'm doing it, too. Page 260 ·1· ·using a CCA State Prison contract to reverse-engineer ·1· · · · A.· ·Yeah, that's fine. Page 262 ·2· ·the per diem, but my question is about costs being ·2· · · · Q.· ·GEO proposes and ICE approves a per diem rate, ·3· ·generally the same for all CDF market competitors and ·3· ·correct? ·4· ·based on market rates. ·4· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·5· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·5· · · · Q.· ·The per diem rates in the Adelanto contract ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay, paragraph twenty, "A CDF market ·6· ·are the results of GEO's application of the four factors ·7· ·competitor can roughly identify the profit included in a ·7· ·that you've laid out, correct? ·8· ·per diem rate from another competitor by adding together ·8· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·9· ·the, one, labor charges for non-exempt hourly staff used ·9· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 10· ·to operate the facility based on the staffing plan and 10· ·BY MR. FREE: 11· ·wage determination, two, estimated labor charges for 11· · · · Q.· ·There's no other factor other than labor costs 12· ·exempt, salaried staff in management and supervisory 12· ·in - in your per diem rate, correct, at Adelanto? 13· ·positions and, three, estimated non labor charges."· Do 13· · · · A.· ·Say that again.· I'm sorry. 14· ·you see that? 14· · · · Q.· ·In your per diem rate in the Adelanto contract 15· · · · A.· ·Yes. 15· ·there's no other factor other than labor costs and 16· · · · Q.· ·So you're basically saying you can figure out 16· ·profit, pieces one - elements one and two, element three 17· ·their profits if you can figure out elements one through 17· ·and element four? 18· ·three, right? 18· · · · A.· ·All four elements? 19· · · · A.· ·You can, yeah.· You can get -- 19· · · · Q.· ·Uh-huh. 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 20· · · · A.· ·Yes. 21· · · · A.· ·-- pretty close. 21· · · · Q.· ·All right, so if you can reduce labor you can 22· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 22· ·theoretically increase profit if you're GEO? 23· · · · · · ·In fact, GEO does that as a business practice, 23· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 24· ·correct? 24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· In the case of Adelanto? 25· · · · A.· ·Does what? 25· ·BY MR. FREE: 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 68 of 81 Page ID #:2525 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 263–266 Page 263 Page 265 ·1· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·1· · · · Q.· ·Just generally. ·2· · · · A.· ·I mean I think that's hard -- Well, I would ·2· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It is looking at it and it's ·3· · · · comparing it to its estimates -·3· ·say no, you can't.· If you've submitted a proposal and ·4· ·it was accepted then, no, you can't. ·4· ·BY MR. FREE: ·5· · · · Q.· ·I understand what -·6· · · · A.· ·Oh. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·7· · · · Q.· ·I think I understand what you're saying is ·8· ·once you - once you've agreed to the contract with ·7· · · · Q.· ·And sure. ·9· ·ICE -10· · · · A.· ·ICE, yeah. ·9· ·what it's going to take to do nineteen hundred and forty 11· · · · Q.· ·-- you don't get to change from an example 12· ·staffing plan that we've looked at -- 11· ·what that looks like and so they can tell whether a 13· · · · A.· ·Right. 13· ·question and I think that you've agreed is GEO presents 14· · · · Q.· ·-- that says you're going to do 15· ·twenty-seven -- 14· ·the staffing plan to ICE, ICE doesn't say you're going 16· · · · A.· ·Yeah. 17· · · · Q.· ·-- kitchen positions.· You don't get to do 16· ·model after that?· It's initiated by GEO correct? 18· ·twenty-five and keep the rest, right? 19· · · · A.· ·Correct. 18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So we initiate it and - but ICE 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay, but if you can minimize the costs that 21· ·you're spending on that if you're GEO in the initial 20· · · · need to change it. 22· ·term, right, if you can - if you can figure out that we 23· ·only need twenty-seven and ICE will accept that they 22· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, they can negotiate it -- ·6· · · · A.· ·-- and I don't know what those are. ·8· · · · · · ·And maybe the contract officer knows kind of 10· ·beds from other contracts or from talking within ICE to 12· ·contractor is, you know, shorting on staff, but my basic 15· ·to do twenty-seven people in the kitchen and build your 17· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 19· · · · does have the opportunity to come back and say you 21· ·BY MR. FREE: 23· · · · A.· ·Sure. 24· · · · Q.· ·-- with you? 24· ·will enter into this contract as opposed to thirty then 25· ·GEO can do the same thing that you described doing to 25· · · · A.· ·Yes. Page 264 ·1· ·CoreCivic in that reverse-engineer.· You can maximize ·2· ·profit based on the lowering of the labor costs, right? ·3· · · · A.· ·Maximize profit? ·4· · · · Q.· ·You can - you know -·5· · · · A.· ·That would bring about a lower per diem rate ·6· ·if we were to reduce the staffing or the costs for the ·7· ·staffing, so we would have to reduce the per diem rate. ·8· ·You couldn't keep it the same and maximize your profit. ·9· ·I mean there would be an expectation that if you're 10· ·providing less staff than what they think should be 11· ·there should be a lower per diem. Page 266 ·1· · · · Q.· ·And if - if you have a contract and you agree ·2· ·then you've agreed, right? ·3· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and then the bed-day rate reflects the ·5· ·agreement on staffing which is labor really which is ·6· ·sixty-five percent of the average, you know, on the ·7· ·normal per day rate based on your testimony, right? ·8· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·9· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It reflects all the costs, not 10· · · · just the labor. 12· · · · Q.· ·Does ICE give GEO model staffing plans in the 11· ·BY MR. FREE: 12· · · · Q.· ·All right, now once you've got the contract -- 13· ·procurement process? 13· ·Let's take Adelanto specifically.· Adelanto is a fixed 14· · · · A.· ·They do not. 14· ·price agreement, right? 15· · · · A.· ·Yes. 15· · · · Q.· ·Does ICE set staffing ratios for GEO to abide 16· ·by in the procurement process? 17· · · · A.· ·If they do it's - it's not provided to us. 16· · · · Q.· ·Which means unless there's a modification or 17· ·an equitable adjustment GEO is stuck with the per diem 18· · · · Q.· ·I understood your testimony earlier today to 18· ·rate that GEO and ICE agreed to, correct? 19· ·be that GEO would propose to ICE the staffing plan based 19· · · · A.· ·Yes. 20· ·on its proprietary confidential formula, its company 21· ·philosophy and values.· Did I understand that correctly? 22· · · · A.· ·Correct. 23· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and so ICE is functionally looking at 24· ·what GEO has proposed when it's looking at the staffing 25· ·plan, correct? 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and you said earlier, you know, you can 21· ·get the windfall of savings and you can bear the cost of 22· ·benefits.· The substance of your testimony earlier is I 23· ·think in a fixed price contract if you have a cost 24· ·overrun, the contractor, that's on you? 25· · · · A.· ·Correct. 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 69 of 81 Page ID #:2526 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 267–270 Page 267 Page 269 ·1· · · · Q.· ·You can come back and say we need more money ·1· ·proposals at GEO and as described, do you agree that's ·2· ·or if ICE is forcing you to overrun your costs then you ·2· ·what you told the Court? ·3· ·can ask them for more money but, you know, the price of ·3· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·4· ·milk goes up or if GEO does business with a - let's take ·4· · · · Q.· ·All right, if you'll flip over to page four of ·5· ·out the price of milk.· If GEO does business with a ·5· ·seven in paragraph nine the discussion we were having ·6· ·third-party for some contract and they are not getting ·6· ·earlier about how GEO puts the staffing plan together ·7· ·the best price then GEO eats that cost, right? ·7· ·and then ICE looks at it, sees if it's reasonable, maybe ·8· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·8· ·you negotiate and then the per diem rate is a reflection ·9· · · · Q.· ·All right. ·9· ·of an agreement on what that staffing plan is.· Do you 10· · · · · · ·Are you okay? 10· ·recall that discussion? 11· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· No, I was probably hitting the mic, so 11· · · · A.· ·Yes. 12· ·I apologize. 12· · · · Q.· ·All right, so you say, "Solicitations by ICE 13· · · · Q.· ·We're going to hand you a document being 13· ·and other agencies for contract detention services 14· ·marked as Exhibit Nineteen. 14· ·typically require bidders to submit a comprehensive" and 15· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Exhibit 19 was marked) 15· ·it's capitalized, "Technical Response" and then it says, 16· ·BY MR. FREE: 16· ·(To include operational procedures and policies, 17· · · · Q.· ·This is a declaration from you on GEO's behalf 17· ·detailed staffing plan, facility design plans and 18· ·seeking to file limited redaction - redacted pages 18· ·physical plant descriptions) detailed pricing cost 19· ·incamera and under seal.· Do you know what incamera 19· ·information and past performance information."· Did I 20· ·means? 20· ·read that correctly? 21· · · · A.· ·I do not. 21· · · · A.· ·Yes. 22· · · · Q.· ·Do you know what under seal means? 22· · · · Q.· ·Is that as true now as it was when you signed 23· · · · A.· ·Yes. 23· ·this on December 1st, 2017? 24· · · · Q.· ·All right, I'm just going to tell you they 24· · · · A.· ·It is. 25· ·wanted to just give it, GEO just wanted to give it to 25· · · · Q.· ·"When all other factors are more or less Page 268 ·1· ·the Court and not give it to the Plaintiffs and so you Page 270 ·1· ·equal, the government will base the award on the overall ·2· ·were - this declaration was in support of that, I think. ·2· ·cost."· Is that true? ·3· · · · · · ·Again if you look to the final page.· Actually ·3· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·4· ·look at page six of seven it says on the top.· Do you ·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay, it's true that you wrote that and it's ·5· ·see that? ·5· ·true that that, in fact, is what the government does? ·6· · · · A.· ·Yeah. ·6· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·7· · · · Q.· ·Because it's not paginated at the bottom. ·7· · · · Q.· ·All right, "The winning proposal in almost ·8· ·That's your signature? ·8· ·every Federal procurement competition in the detention ·9· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·9· ·or prison contracting area is awarded to the lowest 10· · · · Q.· ·Did you sign this document? 10· ·bidder unless the bidder has an unsatisfactory 11· · · · A.· ·Yes. 11· ·performance record."· Did I read that correctly? 12· · · · Q.· ·Have you seen it since you signed it? 12· · · · A.· ·You did. 13· · · · A.· ·No. 13· · · · Q.· ·Is that true? 14· · · · Q.· ·Did you sign it on December 1st, 2017? 14· · · · A.· ·I believe it is. 15· · · · A.· ·I assume I did. 15· · · · Q.· ·Well, you wrote it. 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay, fair. 16· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I - listen, I don't know all the 17· · · · · · ·Once again you're making this declaration as 17· ·procurements that have gone on, but it's as far as I 18· ·GEO's SVP for Business Development.· You say in 18· ·know, yes, that's true. 19· ·paragraph one your "Duties include responsible for 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, you once again describe the - in 20· ·leading GEO's business development and proposal efforts 20· ·paragraph ten, "The proprietary approach to staffing and 21· ·in response to requests for proposal for GEO's contract 21· ·pricing plans based on the contractor's analysis of the 22· ·detention facilities which includes RFPs from 22· ·request for proposal work statement requirements 23· ·Immigration and Customs Enforcement" and everything in 23· ·published by ICE or another soliciting agency along with 24· ·here is based on your personal knowledge and other - 24· ·company philosophy and operational policies."· Did I 25· ·as - in your capacity as the person responsible for 25· ·read that correctly? 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 70 of 81 Page ID #:2527 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 271–274 Page 271 ·1· · · · A.· ·You did. ·2· · · · Q.· ·What's GEO's company philosophy? ·3· · · · A.· ·Our philosophy? ·4· · · · Q.· ·Uh-huh. ·5· · · · A.· ·Treat people humanely.· I'm trying to remember ·6· ·the - the statement, but it's basically treating people ·7· ·humanely, open and honest communications, delivering ·8· ·quality services, et cetera.· Something like that, to ·9· ·that effect. 10· · · · Q.· ·Is that written down somewhere? 11· · · · A.· ·It is written down. 12· · · · Q.· ·Where would I find it? 13· · · · A.· ·On the wall next to my office. 14· · · · Q.· ·All right. 15· · · · A.· ·It could be on the website.· I don't know. 16· · · · Q.· ·But that's a public document? 17· · · · A.· ·I wouldn't say it's a public document, but if 18· ·it's on our website I guess it is. 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 20· · · · A.· ·Yeah. 21· · · · Q.· ·And you take these into consideration in 22· ·responding to the RFPs? 23· · · · A.· ·Yes. 24· · · · Q.· ·What are the operational policies? 25· · · · A.· ·What are?· I'm sorry? Page 272 ·1· · · · Q.· ·You also say operational policies.· I'm just ·2· ·wondering what those are. ·3· · · · A.· ·There's hundreds.· Well, there's a lot of ·4· ·operational policies. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Which ones bear on your submissions in ·6· ·response to RFPs -·7· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·8· ·BY MR. FREE: ·9· · · · Q.· ·-- if you know? 10· · · · A.· ·I think all of them. 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 12· · · · A.· ·Yeah. 13· · · · Q.· ·So there's a lot of them and all of them are 14· ·relevant to how you do this? 15· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I believe so. 16· · · · Q.· ·All right. 17· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· Let's take a quick break. 18· · · · · · ·It's 3:50.· Can we endeavor to come back at 19· · · · 4:00? 20· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· No. 21· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· Okay.· Well -22· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· I'm joking. 23· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· He's refusing to endeavor to come 24· · · · back at 4:00. 25· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· I'm joking. Page 273 ·1· · · · · · ·What time were we off? ·2· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· 3:51. ·3· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, there was a brief recess observed) ·4· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· We are back on the video ·5· · · · record 4:07 p.m. ·6· ·BY MR. FREE: ·7· · · · Q.· ·Mr. Venturella, which part of the four ·8· ·elements in the per diem rate is commissary? ·9· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 10· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't believe commissary is 11· · · · part of that. 12· ·BY MR. FREE: 13· · · · Q.· ·What -14· · · · A.· ·We don't manage commissary, we don't profit 15· ·from commissary, we don't derive any, excuse me, 16· ·revenues from commissary is my understanding. 17· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and we is GEO? 18· · · · A.· ·We as GEO. 19· · · · Q.· ·And that's all GEO's immigration and detention 20· ·centers or just Adelanto as far as you know? 21· · · · A.· ·I believe that applies to all of our 22· ·facilities. 23· · · · Q.· ·Do you know whether GEO uses one commissary 24· ·vendor or more than one? 25· · · · A.· ·I believe more than one. Page 274 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you know who Keefe is, K-e-e-f-e? ·2· · · · A.· ·I do know, yes. ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you know if Keefe provides commissary ·4· ·to Adelanto? ·5· · · · A.· ·I do not know. ·6· · · · Q.· ·All right, and so there is a commissary, a ·7· ·physical area where the goods are stored at Adelanto, ·8· ·right? ·9· · · · A.· ·The commissary? 10· · · · Q.· ·Yes, sir. 11· · · · A.· ·Yes. 12· · · · Q.· ·Have you seen it? 13· · · · A.· ·I don't think I -- I don't recall seeing it. 14· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and I think I understand you to mean 15· ·that the commissary vendor, that GEO doesn't run 16· ·commissary or profit from it, that means that Keefe 17· ·would be staffing the commissary; is that right? 18· · · · A.· ·That's -- I believe that's correct. 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, does GEO derive any revenues from the 20· ·commissary? 21· · · · A.· ·No. 22· · · · Q.· ·Does GEO make any profit from commissary? I 23· ·think you said no. 24· · · · A.· ·Right.· No. 25· · · · Q.· ·Does GEO use any part of the commissary 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 71 of 81 Page ID #:2528 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 275–278 Page 275 Page 277 ·1· ·revenues to fund any operations in any of its ·1· ·second paragraph.· "Additionally, in no way does GEO ·2· ·facilities? ·2· ·profit from the commissary operations which are provided ·3· · · · A.· ·Not to my knowledge. ·3· ·and operated by a third-party vendor" and then GEO says, ·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay, does GEO control or approve of the ·4· ·"Any minimal commission from each commissary sale almost ·5· ·pricing in its commissaries at ICE detention centers? ·5· ·entirely goes into a welfare fund which is used for ·6· · · · A.· ·I don't know. ·6· ·recreational equipment for detainees with a small ·7· · · · Q.· ·Do you know whether GEO contracts directly ·7· ·portion used to cover costs only."· Do you see that? ·8· ·with the commissary vendor or on the other hand whether ·8· · · · A.· ·I do. ·9· ·it's ICE doing the commissary vendor contract? ·9· · · · Q.· ·Is that true? 10· · · · A.· ·At Adelanto? 10· · · · A.· ·I do not know. 11· · · · Q.· ·Yes, sir. 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay, what commission would be taken by GEO? 12· · · · A.· ·GEO contracts directly with the commissary 12· · · · A.· ·I don't know. 13· ·vendor. 13· · · · Q.· ·Why wouldn't the entirety of a sale to the 14· · · · Q.· ·Okay, does GEO approve the prices of the 14· ·third-party vendor at a GEO facility, Adelanto, for 15· ·commissary vendor? 15· ·instance, where the detainee buys something, there's a 16· · · · A.· ·I do not know. 16· ·sale, why wouldn't the entirety of that go to a 17· · · · Q.· ·Okay, who would know that? 17· ·third-party vendor? 18· · · · A.· ·I would - somebody in our Operations 18· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 19· ·Department I would believe. 19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know. 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay, let me hand you two documents.· The 20· ·BY MR. FREE: 21· ·first will be marked as Exhibit Twenty, the second one 21· · · · Q.· ·Okay, what is a welfare fund? 22· ·will be marked as Exhibit 21. 22· · · · A.· ·I don't know. 23· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Exhibits 20 and 21 consecutively 23· · · · Q.· ·Okay, is a welfare fund part of your proposal 24· ·were marked) 24· ·that you would put in front of ICE as part of bidding or 25· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Thank you. 25· ·renegotiating a detention contract if you're GEO? Page 276 ·1· ·BY MR. FREE: ·2· · · · Q.· ·Exhibit Twenty is a printout from Aurora's ·3· ·report by Michelle Conlin and Kristina Cooke that was ·4· ·dated January 18th, 2019.· Exhibit Twenty-one is I ·5· ·believe a January 18th, 2019 statement published on ·6· ·GEO's website.· The reason I'm saying that is at the ·7· ·bottom left-hand corner it's the - the link is ·8· ·wearegeo.com.· That's GEO's website, right?· I'm ·9· ·pointing to -10· · · · A.· ·Yes. 11· · · · Q.· ·-- the first page of Exhibit Twenty-one.· Do 12· ·you see that? 13· · · · A.· ·I do.· I see it. 14· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so I'm going to represent to you that I 15· ·think that this is GEO's statement, this, Exhibit 16· ·Twenty-one is GEO's statement "correcting the record" 17· ·about the Reuters piece that is Exhibit Twenty. 18· · · · A.· ·Okay. 19· · · · Q.· ·Do you follow? 20· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I follow it now. 21· · · · Q.· ·Okay, if you'll turn on Exhibit Twenty-one, 22· ·the GEO statement -23· · · · A.· ·Okay. 24· · · · Q.· ·-- to the second page. 25· · · · · · ·GEO has echoed what you've said today in the Page 278 ·1· · · · A.· ·No. ·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay, this does not appear in elements one, ·3· ·two, three or four of your bed-day rate formulation, ·4· ·right? ·5· · · · A.· ·That's correct. ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay, what would be the need for recreational ·7· ·equipment for detainees from the welfare fund? ·8· · · · A.· ·I don't know. ·9· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 10· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know. 11· ·BY MR. FREE: 12· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so I just want to understand this 13· ·paragraph.· It looks like GEO is saying we don't profit 14· ·from commissary, we take a minimal commission, we then 15· ·put that commission almost entirely into a welfare fund 16· ·and then we use that to buy recreational equipment for 17· ·detainees, right? 18· · · · A.· ·That's what it says, yeah. 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so the almost minimal and the small 20· ·portion is the stuff that I don't understand.· Can you 21· ·help me understand that. 22· · · · A.· ·Unfortunately I cannot.· I don't - I don't 23· ·know what that is. 24· · · · Q.· ·Okay, you don't know what a small portion 25· ·constitutes? 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 72 of 81 Page ID #:2529 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 279–282 Page 279 ·1· · · · · · ·Okay. ·2· · · · A.· ·I do not. ·3· · · · Q.· ·All right, and this is - this welfare fund, ·4· ·this commission to GEO which is not entirely put into ·5· ·the welfare fund does not appear in your cost ·6· ·calculations that result in your bed-day rate approved ·7· ·by ICE? ·8· · · · A.· ·No.· Not to my knowledge. ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so GEO is -- Because GEO is not putting 10· ·all of the commissary commission that it gets from the 11· ·third-party vendor into the welfare fund GEO has some 12· ·money and then I think it says with a small portion used 13· ·to cover costs only, so my question is what are the 14· ·costs? 15· · · · A.· ·I don't know. 16· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know. 18· ·BY MR. FREE: 19· · · · Q.· ·So there is a program operated within the 20· ·Adelanto detention facility within the commissary that 21· ·is not reflected in the bed-day rate, right? 22· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 23· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Correct. 24· ·BY MR. FREE: 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay. Page 281 ·1· ·would be to buy the cheaper product to give to the ·2· ·detainees, correct? ·3· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·4· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· We don't run the commissary, so ·5· · · · I don't think that's a - a factor. ·6· ·BY MR. FREE: ·7· · · · Q.· ·Well, you do run the sanitation - the hygiene ·8· ·products that are offered free of charge to all ·9· ·detainees, right?· GEO does that? 10· · · · · · ·That's at the top of the paragraph. 11· · · · A.· ·Right.· We provide products to the detainees. 12· · · · Q.· ·All right, so I'll ask my question again. 13· · · · · · ·If you had a choice between a brand name 14· ·product and a generic product and you're a procurement 15· ·person for GEO and the generic is cheaper you're going 16· ·to buy the generic, right? 17· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know that for a fact. 19· ·BY MR. FREE: 20· · · · Q.· ·What do you think? 21· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· The same objection. 22· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know.· I don't know. 23· ·BY MR. FREE: 24· · · · Q.· ·Based on the principals that we've laid out 25· ·throughout the day about getting the most competitive Page 280 Page 282 ·1· ·cost for each of the four elements of the bed-day rate ·1· · · · · · ·Who would know the answer to these questions ·2· ·so that you can have the most competitive bed-day rate ·2· ·that I've asked you, if you know? ·3· · · · A.· ·I don't. ·3· ·would it make any sense for GEO to buy the more ·4· · · · Q.· ·Do you know who puts out these sorts of ·4· ·expensive product? ·5· ·statements from GEO? ·5· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·6· · · · A.· ·That would be Pablo Paez, P-a-e-z. ·6· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Again I don't know what they ·7· · · · Q.· ·Is that GEO's spokesperson? ·7· · · · purchase, the brands, the types, et cetera, so I ·8· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·8· · · · don't know. ·9· · · · Q.· ·Where would Pablo get the information that's ·9· ·BY MR. FREE: 10· ·contained in the statement, if you know? 10· · · · Q.· ·But that's not my question.· My question is 11· · · · A.· ·I believe from the Operations unit. 11· ·just as a principle, I'm not asking you like Dove 12· · · · Q.· ·Okay, in the paragraph above it says 12· ·versus, you know, with a bar of soap that you'll get at 13· ·main brand -- Excuse me, brand -- It says, "Furthermore, 13· ·Dollar General.· I'm just asking if you have a choice 14· ·between two products, one of them is more expensive, one 14· ·brand name products are available for purchase at the 15· ·center's commissary and include the option to purchase 15· ·of them is less, you buy the cheaper one if you're 16· ·toothpaste for one dollar and fifty cents in addition to 16· ·trying to keep your costs down so you can have the most 17· ·the free toothpaste that is provided on demand."· Do you 17· ·competitive bed-day rate if you're GEO, right? 18· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 18· ·see that? 19· · · · A.· ·I do. 19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Again I don't know what the 20· · · · Q.· ·I think I know the answer to this, but do you 20· · · · criteria is for the purchase. 21· ·know whether that's true? 21· ·BY MR. FREE: 22· · · · A.· ·I don't. 22· · · · Q.· ·Do you know if the Operations people would 23· · · · Q.· ·If GEO had a choice between choosing brand 23· ·know that though? 24· ·name products and generic products with the generic 24· · · · A.· ·I think they would. 25· ·products being cheaper the rational thing for GEO to do 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay, great. 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 73 of 81 Page ID #:2530 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 283–286 Page 283 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Sure. ·1· · · · · · ·Does GEO operate the -- You know what?· Thank Page 285 ·2· ·you. ·2· · · · · · ·Is the number of detainee voluntary workers at ·3· · · · · · ·Is the - the work program at the Adelanto ·3· ·Adelanto or at any other facility that you're ·4· ·Detention Center for immigration detainees who are paid ·4· ·contracting with with ICE, is that number included in ·5· ·a dollar a day voluntary? ·5· ·your proposal in your negotiations with ICE if you're ·6· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·6· ·GEO? ·7· · · · Q.· ·It is each detainee's choice whether he or she ·7· · · · A.· ·It's not - it's not because it's not known. ·8· ·wishes to participate in the work program at Adelanto, ·8· ·It's not known until after the contract's awarded and ·9· ·correct? ·9· ·then there's discussions between the facility 10· · · · A.· ·That's my understanding. 10· ·administrator and the ICE representative, so at the time 11· · · · Q.· ·And just so we're clear, I'm not talking about 11· ·we submit a proposal we do not know what the numbers or 12· ·personal housekeeping listed in 5.8.· I'm only talking 12· ·percentages will be. 13· ·about the VWP. 13· · · · Q.· ·You can't predict that based on historical 14· · · · A.· ·Understood. 14· ·data? 15· · · · Q.· ·Can we agree on that? 15· · · · A.· ·No. 16· · · · A.· ·Agreed. 16· · · · Q.· ·Why not? 17· · · · Q.· ·All right, it is conceivable then that no 17· · · · A.· ·Every - every office is different, so there is 18· ·people you can find in Adelanto would make the choice to 18· ·no standard formula of being able to predict that. 19· ·work, correct? 19· · · · Q.· ·And so you don't as GEO? 20· · · · A.· ·Can you repeat that? 20· · · · A.· ·No, so we don't -- 21· · · · Q.· ·If everybody at Adelanto has a choice whether 21· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 22· ·they want to work in the voluntary work program it is 22· · · · A.· ·-- so it's not included in our proposal that 23· ·conceivable, it's possible that nobody wants to work 23· ·we submit to ICE. 24· ·there, right? 24· · · · Q.· ·And that -- I'm assuming when you say the 25· · · · A.· ·It's -- Yeah.· I think that's possible. 25· ·proposal that - it includes the component parts of the Page 284 Page 286 ·1· ·technical offering, is that how you described it, or the ·2· ·technical response? ·3· · · · Q.· ·But it is possible that the number of ·3· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·4· ·voluntary work - voluntary workers at GEO and Adelanto ·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so that includes the staffing plan, ·5· ·could be zero, right? ·5· ·right? ·6· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·6· · · · A.· ·Correct. ·7· · · · Q.· ·It is truly voluntary? ·7· · · · Q.· ·And the historical performance information if ·8· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·8· ·there is any, right? ·9· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. ·9· · · · A.· ·Correct. 10· ·BY MR. FREE: 10· · · · Q.· ·And that could also include like labor 11· · · · Q.· ·Thanks. 11· ·determinations for prevailing wages, right? 12· · · · · · ·Who determines the number of voluntary workers 12· · · · A.· ·I think that's provided by ICE, the labor 13· ·at Adelanto? 13· ·determinations. 14· · · · A.· ·I don't know. 14· · · · Q.· ·Oh, yeah.· Through the DOL. 15· · · · Q.· ·Who would know the answer to that question? 15· · · · A.· ·Correct. 16· · · · A.· ·Excuse me. 16· · · · Q.· ·The Department of Labor? 17· · · · · · ·The Facility Administrator. 17· · · · · · ·Okay, as part of this response to the RFP that 18· · · · Q.· ·Mr. Janecka? 18· ·GEO submits to ICE there's no set number of expected 19· · · · A.· ·Yes, Mr. Janecka. 19· ·detainee voluntary workers at the facility, correct? 20· · · · Q.· ·Okay, is that consideration included in the 20· · · · A.· ·That is correct. 21· ·request for proposal process that you supervise and 21· · · · Q.· ·Okay, is that because you can't depend on 22· ·lead? 22· ·having that labor because it's all voluntary, or what -23· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 23· ·I just don't understand how you -- Like why is that?· Is 24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Can you repeat the question? 24· ·it just - just because you don't know? 25· ·BY MR. FREE: 25· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay, it doesn't happen, right? ·2· · · · A.· ·Right. 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 74 of 81 Page ID #:2531 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 287–290 Page 287 ·1· ·correct? ·1· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Right.· We just don't know at Page 289 ·2· · · · the time. ·2· · · · A.· ·I don't recall that specifically. ·3· ·BY MR. FREE: ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I posed a hypothetical to you earlier ·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay, when you're making your staffing ·4· ·that there could be a day when nobody decides to work ·5· ·proposals that go into the bed-day rate, is GEO ·5· ·who's in - in the Adelanto Detention Center, right? ·6· ·factoring in tasks that will be performed by voluntary ·6· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·7· ·workers at the facility? ·7· · · · Q.· ·If it is truly voluntary? ·8· · · · A.· ·No. ·8· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·9· · · · Q.· ·I know you've told me you haven't seen the ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay, who would perform the jobs of all those 10· ·model, the spreadsheet, but you've seen a screen shot of 10· ·people if they did not show up to work? 11· ·it.· Did you tell me that earlier? 11· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 12· · · · A.· ·Of? 12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· The GEO staff. 13· · · · Q.· ·Of the - the way that GEO gets the bed-day 13· ·BY MR. FREE: 14· ·rate.· You know, you add in all the costs, the labor. 14· · · · Q.· ·In evaluating the costs are for the bed-day 15· ·You know, basically you add in elements one through 15· ·rate does GEO budget for full staff by non-detainees? 16· ·four, but that's in the spreadsheet, right? 16· · · · A.· ·I don't understand the question. 17· · · · A.· ·Yes. 17· · · · Q.· ·Does GEO budget for that day when nobody shows 18· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and you submit it to ICE, right? 18· ·up where all the staff have to do all the labor that the 19· · · · A.· ·Correct. 19· ·voluntary work program workers would do in its proposals 20· · · · Q.· ·And detainee labor is not accounted for 20· ·to ICE when it's trying to get a contract? 21· ·anywhere in that spreadsheet, correct? 21· · · · A.· ·Our proposals include staff to support the 22· · · · A.· ·I don't know. 22· ·entire operation so, yes. 23· · · · Q.· ·Because you haven't seen it? 23· · · · Q.· ·It - does it -- Does that proposal include the 24· · · · A.· ·I -- Yeah. 24· ·assumption that there will be no workers? 25· · · · Q.· ·Who knows the answer to that question, if you 25· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. Page 288 Page 290 ·1· ·know? ·2· · · · A.· ·Probably our folks in the CFO's office. ·1· ·BY MR. FREE: ·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay, ICE requires GEO as part of the contract ·4· ·to run a voluntary work program, correct? ·3· · · · A.· ·Again we - at the time we submit that proposal ·5· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·6· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Can you repeat that? ·5· ·not assume any number. ·7· · · · · · ·I'm sorry. ·8· ·BY MR. FREE: ·7· ·if you disagree that if no voluntary workers showed up ·9· · · · Q.· ·As far as you understand the contract at 10· ·Adelanto or really any ICE contract subject that GEO's ·9· ·told me GEO would do those jobs, right?· GEO employees 14· · · · Q.· ·That's like one of the premises of your letter 15· ·to ICE is we're doing this because you're telling me. 14· ·employees in order to bear that responsibility? 16· ·We're - GEO is running the voluntary work program 17· ·because you're making us do it, right? 16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That I don't know. 18· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I agree. 19· · · · Q.· ·All right, so - so you know there's going to 18· · · · Q.· ·Is that a question that is considered by GEO 20· ·be a voluntary work program, you know they have 21· ·detainees have a choice to work or not and GEO also 20· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 22· ·knows that it's not just supposed to be make work 23· ·volunteering, right?· In other words, it's supposed to 22· ·BY MR. FREE: 24· ·enhance essential - essential functions at the facility 25· ·is one of the purposes of the voluntary work program, 24· · · · · · ·Is that a consideration that GEO takes into ·2· · · · Q.· ·No detainee workers. ·4· ·we do not know numbers or percentages, so it - it does ·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· It is true then, I think, and tell me ·8· ·on a day to do all the jobs that they're going to do you 10· ·would do those jobs? 11· ·done you have to run the voluntary work program under 11· · · · A.· ·GEO would be responsible for it, yes. 12· · · · Q.· ·Yeah. 12· ·ICE, right? 13· · · · · · ·Would GEO have to alter its staffing of its 13· · · · A.· ·Correct. 15· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 17· ·BY MR. FREE: 19· ·in crafting the bed-day rate in the response to the RFP? 21· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Can you repeat that? 23· · · · Q.· ·Yeah. 25· ·account when you're putting together your response to 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 75 of 81 Page ID #:2532 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 291–294 Page 291 Page 293 ·1· ·ICE's RFP?· In other words, does GEO project out its ·1· ·work? ·2· ·cost of having GEO employees do all of the work that ·2· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·3· ·voluntary workers would do if they weren't there? ·3· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know the reason, but I ·4· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·4· · · · do know that those rates have to be approved by the ·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Again because we don't know what ·5· · · · local ICE contracting representative, so - but as ·6· · · · the numbers are, percentages that proposal that we ·6· · · · far as the factors of what goes into it I don't ·7· · · · submit to ICE would provide services, full services ·7· · · · know and then what eventually is agreed upon I ·8· · · · to manage and - and operate that facility with or ·8· · · · don't know. ·9· · · · without the detainee workforce. ·9· ·BY MR. FREE: 10· ·BY MR. FREE: 10· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and in order to get the local ICE 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay, thanks. 11· ·contact - contracting representative to approve GEO 12· · · · · · ·How much are voluntary workers paid, detainee 12· ·would need to propose it, correct? 13· ·workers paid at Adelanto for their work? 13· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 14· · · · A.· ·The detainees participating in the VWP? 14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.· GEO would propose it. 15· · · · Q.· ·Yes, sir. 15· ·BY MR. FREE: 16· · · · A.· ·I believe a dollar a day. 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and at some point GEO did propose it in 17· · · · Q.· ·Okay, what do you base that belief on? 17· ·the facilities where detainee workers are paid more than 18· · · · A.· ·The lawsuit. 18· ·a dollar, correct? 19· · · · Q.· ·Does GEO budget in a dollar a day into its 19· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 20· ·labor costs? 20· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know what triggered it, 21· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 21· · · · but it -- Yes.· I mean there - there was some 22· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No. 22· · · · agreement. 23· ·BY MR. FREE: 23· ·BY MR. FREE: 24· · · · Q.· ·Why not? 24· · · · Q.· ·Okay, is that a proposal that is made in the - 25· · · · A.· ·I don't know why. 25· ·the response to request for proposal process that you Page 292 ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Go ahead. ·2· · · · A.· ·No, I was -- I guess I was being a little flip ·3· ·with the - the answer about the dollar a day, so and ·4· ·but it is - it is part of our existing contract that ·5· ·detainees who participate in the voluntary work program ·6· ·are reimbursed a dollar a day, so I believe that's been ·7· ·part of the contract since 2011. ·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay, no.· I understand.· You're talking about ·9· ·I knew from the lawsuit. 10· · · · A.· ·Yeah. 11· · · · Q.· ·You know from the contract? 12· · · · A.· ·Yeah. 13· · · · Q.· ·Okay, that's fine. 14· · · · A.· ·Like I said, I was being flip. 15· · · · Q.· ·No.· I took that.· I understand. 16· · · · A.· ·Sorry. 17· · · · Q.· ·You're fine. 18· · · · · · ·Is that the same rate at all GEO ICE detention 19· ·facilities, a dollar a day? 20· · · · A.· ·No. 21· · · · Q.· ·What's the most GEO pays a detainee, if you 22· ·know? 23· · · · A.· ·I do not. 24· · · · Q.· ·Okay, what is the reason behind the 25· ·determination whether GEO will pay a dollar a day for Page 294 ·1· ·supervise in Business Development? ·2· · · · A.· ·No. ·3· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·4· ·BY MR. FREE: ·5· · · · Q.· ·During the negotiations between GEO and ICE ·6· ·GEO is not considering the rate of detainee pay in its ·7· ·proposal, correct? ·8· · · · A.· ·That is correct. ·9· · · · Q.· ·As far as you understand it? 10· · · · A.· ·Yes.· As far as I understand it. 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and GEO's not including as far as I 12· ·understand your testimony today an expected number of 13· ·detainee workers for any given task in the voluntary 14· ·work program, correct? 15· · · · A.· ·At the time of the proposal? 16· · · · Q.· ·Yes, sir. 17· · · · A.· ·Correct. 18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right. 19· · · · · · ·Do you happen to know why it's a dollar a day 20· ·at Adelanto and some other places and more elsewhere? 21· · · · A.· ·No, I don't. 22· · · · Q.· ·Do you know who at GEO would know that? 23· · · · A.· ·I think each local Facility Administrator 24· ·would have the best knowledge of how that transpired. 25· · · · Q.· ·So for Adelanto that's going to be James 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 76 of 81 Page ID #:2533 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 295–298 Page 295 Page 297 ·1· ·Janecka? ·1· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·2· · · · A.· ·I don't know if Mr. Janecka was around in ·2· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· At Adelanto? ·3· ·2011.· Again that's before my time too, so I don't know ·4· ·who negotiated that. ·3· ·BY MR. FREE: ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and who at GEO would be responsible for ·6· ·negotiating a higher rate now with ICE? ·5· · · · A.· ·Not at this time. ·7· · · · A.· ·At Adelanto? ·8· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·7· ·wage GEO would be under court obligation to pay detainee ·9· ·BY MR. FREE: 10· · · · Q.· ·Yes, sir. ·9· ·understand that that hasn't happened yet, but I also 11· · · · A.· ·At Adelanto it would be Amber Martin. 12· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and she's with the Contract Operations 11· ·stopping GEO from asking ICE to modify the contract so 13· ·Administration? 14· · · · A.· ·Yes. 13· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 15· · · · Q.· ·Contracts Administration, right? 16· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· She leads that department. 15· · · · was a lot there. 20· ·be that at those facilities there was some level of 20· ·you're paid the four bucks, right?· The LaSalle 21· ·local negotiation between GEO and ICE to get a higher 21· ·Detention Facility -- 22· ·rate approved.· Did I understand that testimony? 23· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 22· · · · A.· ·Okay. 24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That is correct. 25· ·BY MR. FREE: 24· ·to -- ·4· · · · Q.· ·Yes, sir. ·6· · · · Q.· ·If the Court ordered that GEO pay the minimum ·8· ·workers the California minimum wage, right, and I 10· ·understand your testimony to be that there's nothing 12· ·that they can pay the minimum wage? 14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm sorry.· There was - there 16· ·BY MR. FREE: 17· · · · Q.· ·Sure. 17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I think I understand your answer to the 18· ·question about the differences in pay rates among GEO 18· · · · A.· ·So what -19· · · · Q.· ·All right, so you've got a facility where 19· ·facilities to detainees in the voluntary work program to 23· · · · Q.· ·-- GEO has - you know, you pay four bucks 25· · · · A.· ·Right. Page 296 Page 298 ·1· · · · Q.· ·-- laundry, kitchen.· Do you have any idea why ·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so the thing that you need to do if ·2· ·you're GEO and you're going to pay more than a dollar a ·2· ·there's a different wage rate for each work? ·3· ·day would be to get ICE's approval, right? ·3· · · · A.· ·I do not. ·4· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·4· · · · Q.· ·All right, who -- Okay. ·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Correct. ·5· · · · · · ·If the - do you know at all what the people ·6· ·BY MR. FREE: ·6· ·who work in the voluntary work program at Adelanto can ·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay, do you know of anything stopping GEO ·7· ·do with their money?· Like how -- What would you do?· Do ·8· ·from doing that at Adelanto? ·8· ·you have any understanding of what people who are in an ·9· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·9· ·ICE Detention Center like Adelanto would spend the money 10· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It's already part of the 10· ·on? 11· · · · contract. 11· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 12· ·BY MR. FREE: 12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I think to pay for purchases 13· · · · Q.· ·Well, the contract allows for modifications, 13· · · · from the commissary. 14· ·right? 14· ·BY MR. FREE: 15· · · · A.· ·Sure. 15· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so that's one thing. 16· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, so you could renegotiate a mutual 16· · · · · · ·What about phone calls?· Would you - is that 17· ·modification to the pay rate, right? 17· ·something that they could spend the money on inside the 18· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 18· ·facility? 19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· We could, sure.· We could 19· · · · A.· ·I don't know. 20· · · · propose if we thought there was a reason to 20· · · · Q.· ·You don't know? 21· · · · increase it we could approach ICE. 21· · · · · · ·Okay, even from your time of running a 22· ·BY MR. FREE: 22· ·detention center you don't have any like sort of ambient 23· · · · Q.· ·Okay, can you think of any reason why GEO 23· ·knowledge of -- 24· ·would believe there would be a need to increase the 24· · · · A.· ·No, because we don't run the phone system -- 25· ·dollar a day rate? 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 77 of 81 Page ID #:2534 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 299–302 Page 299 Page 301 ·1· · · · Q.· ·All right, so you've never seen anything that ·2· ·how that works. ·2· ·actually breaks down what GEO's cost per detainee is, ·3· · · · Q.· ·Right. ·3· ·right? ·4· · · · · · ·Who could - who could I ask about where ·4· · · · A.· ·No, I don't. ·5· ·detained immigrants at Adelanto can spend the money they ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Fair. ·6· ·make in the voluntary work program?· Who at GEO could I ·6· · · · · · ·We talked about earlier how people in ·7· ·ask about that? ·7· ·immigration detention facilities, including Adelanto, ·8· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·8· ·are there either awaiting removal pursuant to an order, ·9· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· You could ask Mr. Janecka. ·9· ·maybe they're fighting their case but they've been 10· ·BY MR. FREE: 10· ·removed or they're awaiting a determination from an 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay, anyone else? 11· ·immigration judge or a court on whether they should be 12· · · · A.· ·I'm sure there's others that know. 12· ·removed, right? 13· · · · Q.· ·All right, would you agree that people who are 13· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I recall that, yeah. 14· ·locked in immigration detention centers can reasonably 14· · · · Q.· ·The purpose of detention, right? 15· ·expect to want to use the telephone? 15· · · · A.· ·Yes. 16· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 16· · · · Q.· ·Those people are not entitled to a free lawyer 17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.· I think that's a 17· ·at government expense as a general rule, correct? 18· · · · reasonable expectation. 18· · · · A.· ·That's my understanding. 19· ·BY MR. FREE: 19· · · · Q.· ·Those people have to either find someone who 20· · · · Q.· ·And at no GEO facility are all telephone calls 20· ·will work for their - for free to be their lawyer or 21· ·free, right? 21· ·they have to hire a lawyer, correct? 22· · · · A.· ·Not to my knowledge.· Again we don't manage 22· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 23· ·the telephone system, so I don't know.· That's operated 23· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I think that's correct. 24· ·by ICE. 24· ·BY MR. FREE: 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay, is it part of your bed-day rate 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay, they have a right - the detainees at ·1· · · · A.· ·-- at any ICE facility, so I'm just not sure Page 300 ·1· ·calculation to determine how much it will cost to Page 302 ·1· ·Adelanto and other GEO facilities have a right to access ·2· ·operate the telephone system at GEO? ·2· ·the mail, correct?· In other words, send and receive ·3· · · · A.· ·No.· Again for ICE facilities or Adelanto ·3· ·letters, right? ·4· ·specifically no.· Again ICE has a separate contract for ·4· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·5· ·that, so we don't have any involvement in that. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and I understand that based on this ·6· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever seen a calculation of a per ·6· ·contract to require indigent detainees to receive some ·7· ·detainee cost for housing a person at Adelanto?· In ·7· ·postage allowance.· Is that your understanding as well? ·8· ·other words, what does GEO spend as a company to house a ·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.· There's accommodations for that. ·9· ·person in the facility? ·9· · · · Q.· ·But at some level that can't just be 10· · · · A.· ·I've never seen -- 10· ·unlimited, right?· Like that cost to GEO cannot be 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 11· ·unlimited? 12· · · · A.· ·-- a calculation like that. 12· · · · A.· ·I don't know. 13· · · · Q.· ·All right, is such a -- Regardless of whether 13· · · · Q.· ·Okay, is that something that's factored in 14· ·you've seen it, does GEO have - are you aware of whether 14· ·when you calculate the bed-day rate, if you know? 15· ·GEO has internally as a corporation such a - a number? 15· · · · A.· ·I don't know. 16· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay, if no detainee workers showed up anymore 17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I do not. 17· ·in any of the tasks at Adelanto would GEO have to alter 18· ·BY MR. FREE: 18· ·its staffing plan such that those tasks would be 19· · · · Q.· ·Okay, so you've never seen or been aware of in 19· ·completed? 20· ·your role in putting together proposals for GEO it's 20· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 21· ·going to cost us fifty-two bucks to do all the food, 21· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know. 22· ·care, lodging, activities, all the stuff in element 22· ·BY MR. FREE: 23· ·number three of the bed-day rate? 23· · · · Q.· ·Who would know the answer to that question? 24· · · · · · ·Do you remember element three? 24· · · · A.· ·That would be Mr. Janecka. 25· · · · A.· ·Yes. 25· · · · Q.· ·Okay. 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 78 of 81 Page ID #:2535 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 303–306 Page 303 ·1· ·because they're doing it? ·1· · · · · · ·If you did have to hire people from outside Page 305 ·2· ·the facility to do the work that would cost more than a ·2· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·3· ·dollar a day, right? ·3· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know in absence of the - ·4· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·4· · · · the voluntary work - worker program participants if ·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. ·5· · · · there were none I do not know if we would have to ·6· ·BY MR. FREE: ·6· · · · hire more staff. ·7· · · · Q.· ·There's nobody who's not locked inside the ·7· ·BY MR. FREE: ·8· ·facility that you could pay a dollar a day to do the ·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay. ·9· ·work, right? ·9· · · · A.· ·I just don't know. 10· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry? 10· · · · Q.· ·But I think Miss Martin or Mr. Janecka would 11· · · · Q.· ·There's nobody inside who's not locked inside 11· ·know that? 12· ·the facility that you could pay a dollar a day, right? 12· · · · A.· ·I think more so Mr. Janecka. 13· ·Those are the only people you could pay a dollar a day? 13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I think what you've told me I think I 14· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 14· ·understand it is -- You know what?· I think I 15· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I guess that's true, yes.· Yeah. 15· ·understand.· I think I get it. 16· ·BY MR. FREE: 16· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· We're going to take a break. 17· · · · Q.· ·Right. 17· · · · · · ·Shoot for 5:00 and we'll come back. 18· · · · A.· ·Yeah. 18· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· We are going off the video 19· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any idea of the timeline for the 19· · · · record 4:46 p.m. 20· ·Adelanto contract as it exists right now and whether 20· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, there was a brief recess observed) 21· ·there will be a stopgap between the end of the IGSA and 21· · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· We are back on the video 22· ·the contract detention facility contract between GEO and 22· · · · record at 5:04 p.m. 23· ·ICE? 23· ·BY MR. FREE: 24· · · · A.· ·I do not know. 24· · · · Q.· ·Mr. Venturella, is there anything that stops 25· · · · Q.· ·Do you know who's negotiating that? 25· ·GEO from paying more than a dollar a day even though Page 304 ·1· · · · A.· ·That would be Amber Martin. Page 306 ·1· ·it's not being reimbursed for that by ICE, in other ·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay, would that affect GEO's revenues if the ·2· ·words, GEO could just eat the costs, is there anything ·3· ·contract were cancelled? ·3· ·stopping GEO from doing that? ·4· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·4· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form, asked and ·5· · · · Q.· ·Negatively, right? ·5· · · · answered. ·6· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· Negatively. ·6· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Other than the agreement, ·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay, if you had to go out and hire someone ·7· · · · contractual agreement that's already in place we ·8· ·from outside the facility and pay them more than a ·8· · · · would have to propose it and get approval by ICE. ·9· ·dollar a day, I think we've said that would cost GEO, ·9· ·BY MR. FREE: 10· ·correct? 10· · · · Q.· ·Why? 11· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 11· · · · A.· ·Because it's a change in terms and conditions 12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Correct. 12· ·of the contract that we agreed to, what we propose and 13· ·BY MR. FREE: 13· ·what was agreed to and then incorporated into the 14· · · · Q.· ·You could go to ICE and say, look, just like 14· ·contract -- 15· ·you did with medical staffing or the collective 15· · · · Q.· ·And -- 16· ·bargaining agreement GEO could go to ICE and say, look, 16· · · · A.· ·-- at Adelanto. 17· ·we're incurring this additional cost, pay us more, 17· · · · Q.· ·At Adelanto.· Yeah, I want to make sure you're 18· ·there's our increased bed-day rate, right? 18· ·really clear about what I'm asking.· I'm not saying that 19· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 19· ·you would get more money from ICE and then pass that 20· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Correct. 20· ·through to a detainee worker.· My question is could GEO 21· ·BY MR. FREE: 21· ·set up a detainee welfare program for voluntary workers 22· · · · Q.· ·The fact that GEO doesn't do that, that they 22· ·and instead of paying the reimbursed rate of a dollar a 23· ·don't have to do that, they don't - GEO doesn't have to 23· ·day by ICE pay an increased rate? 24· ·do it, go out right now and hire workers to do what the 24· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form, asked and 25· ·volunteer worker program people are doing, right, 25· · · · answered. 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com YVer1f Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 79 of 81 Page ID #:2536 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 307–310 Page 307 ·1· · · · A.· ·Allegra-D. ·1· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I do not know, but what I can Page 309 ·2· · · · say is that any changes that we make at the ·2· · · · Q.· ·Does it affect your ability to remember or ·3· · · · facility would have to get ICE approval. ·3· ·like recall or understand stuff? ·4· ·BY MR. FREE: ·4· · · · A.· ·No. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Other than ICE approval do you think that ·5· · · · Q.· ·No?· Okay. ·6· ·there's - as you understand it is there anything ·6· · · · · · ·Do you understand throughout the day we were ·7· ·stopping GEO from doing - from paying detainees more? ·7· ·referring to the contracting process that GEO does with ·8· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. ·8· ·ICE, particularly your role in it, you, David ·9· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No. ·9· ·Venturella's role in it.· I've used the word you, you've 10· ·BY MR. FREE: 10· ·responded about GEO and GEO's activities.· Sometimes you 11· · · · Q.· ·Okay, does GEO provide substance abuse 11· ·use we when you'd respond.· I understand you're talking 12· ·counseling at Adelanto? 12· ·about GEO.· You understand that when I'm asking about 13· · · · A.· ·I don't know. 13· ·GEO's operations and I've said you I've meant GEO, 14· · · · Q.· ·Okay, probably the same answer for cognitive 14· ·right? 15· ·and behavior therapy? 15· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Object to the form. 16· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I don't know. 16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes. 17· · · · Q.· ·All right, you're just not aware of the 17· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· Okay.· All right, we've been joined 18· ·programs provided there, right? 18· · · · today after we made appearances by counsel for ICE. 19· · · · A.· ·No, I'm not. 19· · · · I just want to get on the record that she's here. 20· · · · Q.· ·And probably Amber Martin or James Janecka 20· · · · · · ·MS. SIMKINS:· Frances Simkins present at the 21· ·would be the people I would ask about that? 21· · · · deposition. 22· · · · A.· ·I think Mr. Janecka would be the most 22· · · · · · ·MR. FREE:· Those are all the questions I have, 23· ·appropriate person. 23· · · · Mr. Venturella. 24· · · · Q.· ·Is your understanding of the agreement between 24· · · · · · ·Thank you for being here. 25· ·ICE and GEO at Adelanto that the dollar a day rate is 25· · · · · · ·MR. DONOHUE:· Do you want to put your Page 308 Page 310 ·1· ·fully passed through from ICE to GEO -- The entire ·1· ·colleague on the record, too? ·2· ·dollar goes to the detained worker for the work?· Is ·2· · · · MR. FREE:· Oh, yeah.· Henriette Vinet-Martin ·3· ·that your understanding of it? ·3· ·as well. ·4· · · · A.· ·That is my understanding. ·4· · · · MS. VINET-MARTIN:· Henriette Vinet-Martin. ·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay, I think that we can agree that the PBNDS ·6· ·requires the person to be paid daily for the work.· Can ·5· · · · MR. FREE:· Okay, questions? ·6· · · · MR. DONOHUE:· I don't have any questions at ·7· ·we agree on that? ·7· ·this time. ·8· · · · A.· ·Yes. ·8· · · · MR. FREE:· Okay, thanks for being here. ·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and so GEO is making the payment, right, ·9· · · · THE WITNESS:· You're welcome. 10· ·to the detained worker? 10· · · · THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· We are going off the video 11· · · · A.· ·Yes. 11· ·record 5:10 p.m. 12· · · · Q.· ·Okay, and then ICE is paying GEO the 12· · · · THE COURT REPORTER:· Read or waive? 13· ·reimbursement for the payment that GEO's made to the 13· · · · MR. DONOHUE:· Read. 14· ·worker, right? 14 15· · · · A.· ·Yes. 15 16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· As you sit here today do you have any 16· · · · ·(The deposition concluded at 5:10 p.m.) 17· ·idea how many people have died in GEO's custody in 17 18· ·immigration detention this year? 18 19· · · · A.· ·I do not. 19 20· · · · Q.· ·Do you know how many people have died at 20 21· ·Adelanto since the facility opened? 21 22· · · · A.· ·I do not. 22 23· · · · Q.· ·You said earlier you're having allergies. I 23 24· ·can relate.· Are you taking anything for your allergy 24 25· ·medication? 25 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 80 of 81 Page ID #:2537 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 311–314 Page 311 Page 313 ·1· · · · · · · · · · ·CERTIFICATE OF OATH ·1· · · · · · · · · ·DEPOSITION ERRATA SHEET ·2 ·2 ·3· ·STATE OF FLORIDA ·3· ·ASSIGNMENT NO. J4138234 ·4· ·COUNTY OF BROWARD ·4· ·NOVOA vs. THE GEO GROUP, INC. ·5 ·5 ·6· · · · · · ·I, VALERIE LEHTO, the undersigned authority, ·7· ·certify that DAVID J. VENTURELLA personally appeared ·6· · · · DECLARATION UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY ·7· · · · I declare under penalty of perjury ·8· ·before me and was duly sworn. ·8· ·that I have read the entire transcript of ·9 ·9· ·my Deposition taken in the captioned matter 10· · · · · · ·Dated this 23rd day of June, 2019. 11 10· ·or the same is true and accurate, save and 12· · · · · · ·________________________________________ 11· ·except for changes and/or corrections, if · · · · · · · ·VALERIE LEHTO, RPR 12· ·any, as indicated by me on the DEPOSITION 13· · · · · · ·NOTARY PUBLIC - STATE OF FLORIDA 13· ·ERRATA SHEET hereof, with the understanding · · · · · · · ·My Commission Expires:· 8/22/2022 14· ·that I offer these changes as if still under 14· · · · · · ·My Commission No.:· GG 242398 15· ·oath. 15 16· · · · · · ·Signed on the ________ day of _______________, 16 17· ·2019. 17 18 18 19 19 20· ·___________________________________ 20 21· · · · · · · WITNESS NAME 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 Page 312 Page 314 ·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·CERTIFICATE ·1· · · · · · · · · ·DEPOSITION ERRATA SHEET ·2 ·2· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ ·3· ·STATE OF FLORIDA ·3· ·________________________________________________________ ·4· ·COUNTY OF BROWARD ·4· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ ·5· · · · · · ·I, VALERIE LEHTO, Registered Professional ·6· ·Reporter, do hereby certify that I was authorized ·7· ·to and did stenographically report the foregoing ·5· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ ·6· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ ·7· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ ·8· ·deposition as hereinabove shown, and the testimony ·9· ·of said witness was reduced to computer transcription 10· ·under my personal supervision and direction and that ·8· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ ·9· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ 11· ·the record is a true record of the testimony given 10· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ 12· ·by the witness and that the witness has requested 11· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ 13· ·a review of said transcript pursuant to Rule 30(e) 12· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ 14· ·(2). 13· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ 15· · · · · · ·I further certify that I am not a relative, 14· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ 16· ·employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, 15· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ 17· ·nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 16· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ 18· ·attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor 17· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ 19· ·am I financially interested in the action. 20· · · · · · ·Dated this 23rd day of June, 2019. 18· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ 19· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ 21 20· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ 22 23· · · · · · · · · · · · _______________________________ · · · · · · · · · · · · · VALERIE LEHTO 21· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ 22· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ 24· · · · · · · · · · · · Registered Professional Reporter 23 · · · · · · · · · · · · · COMMISSION NO. GG 242398 24· ·SIGNATURE:________________________________DATE:_________ 25· · · · · · · · · · · · MY COMMISSION EXPIRES 8/22/2022 25· · · · · · ·DAVID J. VENTURELLA 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com Case 5:17-cv-02514-JGB-SHK Document 193-19 Filed 09/27/19 Page 81 of 81 Page ID #:2538 DAVID J. VENTURELLA· Volume II June 13, 2019 NOVOA vs THE GEO GROUP 315 Page 315 ·1· · · · · · · · · ·DEPOSITION ERRATA SHEET ·2· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ ·3· ·________________________________________________________ ·4· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ ·5· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ ·6· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ ·7· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ ·8· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ ·9· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ 10· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ 11· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ 12· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ 13· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ 14· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ 15· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ 16· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ 17· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ 18· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ 19· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ 20· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ 21· ·Page No. _____ Line No. _____ Change to: _______________ 22· ·Reason for change:______________________________________ 23 24· ·SIGNATURE:________________________________DATE:_________ 25· · · · · · ·DAVID J. VENTURELLA 800.211.DEPO (3376) EsquireSolutions.com