L UNCLASSTFIED 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE, 8 U.S. 9 wAsHrNGToN, D.C. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 10 11 72 13 DEPOSITION OF: CATHERINE CROFT L4 15 16 17 Wednesday, Octoben 18 30, 2Ot9 Washington, D.C. 19 20 21, 24 in the above matten was held in Room HVC-304, Capitol Visiton Centen, commencing at 9:15 a.m. Pnesent: Repnesentatives Schiff, Himes, Canson, Speien, 25 Quigley, 22 23 The deposition Swa1we11, Heck, WeIch, Demings, Knishnamoonthi, Nunes, UNCLASSIFIED 2 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 Wenstnup, Stefanik, and Ratcliffe. Also Pnesent: Penny, Massie, Jondan, Zeldin, KeIIy, McCaul, Cicitlini, Espaillat, 3 Bena, Anmstnong, Raskin, Malinowski, 4 Maloney, Meeks, Stewant, Wassenman Shultz, and Meadows, UNCLASSIFIED Keating, 3 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 Appeanances 3 4 5 Fon the PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE: T I I I I I I I I I I T I I I I T I 23 24 25 26 UNCLASSIFIED 4 UNCLASSIFTED 1 Fon the COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM: Fon the COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS: I T 4 5 6 I T T 10 LL L2 13 FoT CATHERINE CROFT: 1.4 MARK 15 ABBEY MCNAUGHTON 16 AKIN 77 Robent S. Stnauss 18 2O0L K Stneet, 19 Washington, D.C. ]. MACDOUGALL GUMP STRAUSS HAUER & FELD LLP Towen NW 2OOO6-LO37 UNCLASSIFIED 5 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 THE CHAIRMAN: 3 the Let's come to orden. Good monning, Ms. House Penmanent Select Committee on Croft, Intelligence, 4 and welcome 5 which, along with the Foneign Affains and Ovensight Committees, is 6 conducting 7 inquiny of the House of Representatives. Today's deposition 8 conducted as pant 9 this investigation as pant of the official impeachment is being of the impeachment inquiny. In light of attempts by the Depantment of State and the administration to direct you not 10 to coopenate with the inquiny, the committee 11 youn appeanance today. We L2 had no choice but to compel thank you fon complying with the dual}y authonized 13 congnessional subpoena, as othen cunnent and fonmen t4 acnoss the Fedenal officials from Govennment have done. 16 is a careen Foreign Service officen. In nelevant parts, she has senved on the U.S. Mission to NATO as Uknaine desk t7 officen, at the National Secunity Council 18 necently, she cunnently serves as the special advisen fon 19 negotiations. Ms. Cnoft, thank you fon youn senvice. 15 Ms. Cnoft 20 We as Uknaine directon, and most Uknaine look fonwand to youn testimony today, including your knowledge in key policy discussions, meetings, and decisions 27 of 22 on Uknaine 23 committees. This includes developments nelated to the necall of 24 Ambassadon 25 Uknainian Pnesident Zelensky; as well as the documentary necond that and involvement that nelate dinectly to aneas unden investigation by the Yovanovitch; the President's July 25, UNCLASSIFIED 2@L9 calJ- with the 5 UNCLASSIFIED 3 light about effonts befone and aften the call to get the Uknalnians to announce publicly investigations into two areas Pnesident Tnump asked Pnesident Zelensky to punsue, the Bidens and 4 Burisma, and the conspinacy theony about Uknaine's punponted 5 intenfenence t 2 6 has come to We in the 2016 U.S. elections. will also have questions about the Depantment's nesponse to 7 the impeachment inquiny, including the committee's subpoena, which the 8 Depantment continues 9 has alneady collected 10 11 to defy, despite the fact that significant we know documentany evidence that it that goes to the heant of oun inquiny. Finally, to nestate what I and othens have emphasized will not tolenate in other T2 interviews, 13 neprisal, on attempt to netaliate against L4 fon testifying befone Congness, including you on any of 15 colleagues. 16 coondination with the White House, has sought to pnohibit Department L7 employees fnom coopenating 18 tnied to 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Congness It is any nepnisal, thneat of any U.S. Govennment official youn distunbing that the State Depantment, in with inquiny and with Congness, and have limit what they can say. This is unacceptable. Thankfully, consummate public senvants Iike you have demonstnated nemankable counage in coming fonwand to testify and tel1 the tnuth. Befone I tunn to the committee counsel to begin the intenview, I invite Ranking Memben Nunes to make any opening nemanks. MR. NUNES: I thank the gentleman. Welcome, Ms. Cnoft, fon being hene. Hopefully, today's an impnovement oven yestenday, that won't UNCLASSIFIED 7 UNCLASSIFIED of the witnesses, on sidebans, with the witness' L be any coaching 2 attonneys, and then intennupting the questions that side. That's what occunred yestenday, Ms. Cnoft, and fon youn counsel. 3 4 we have on oun We don't tend to accept that as a pnopen way of a functioning intenview. 7 go. We'd appneciate it if the majority would not intennupt oun side. And if this continues, I can teI1 you that my colleagues that ane not allowed in this noom will continue to expness 8 fnustnation, 9 committee 5 5 It's not how it should as we had last week when we -- when this noom and the entine 11 is continually being bombanded with unclassifled matenial, people want to come down hene. It's not appnopniate to have these heanings down in the Intelligence Committee. This is not an L2 Intelligence 10 And 13 Committee matten. in fact, the only piece of the Intelligence Committee that 15 whistleblowen, L6 And we in this, was the who only the majonity and their staff have met with. actually had in junisdiction L4 matten we had 20 it's quite concenning this inquisition is going on down hene. We don't really want to be pant of the cult, but we have no options, so we ane hene. So hopefully today, Ms. Cnoft, you will be able to answer all of our questions. With that, I will yield the chainman. THE CHAIRMAN: I thank the gentleman fon his opening statement. 27 Mn. Goldman, you ane recognized. t7 18 19 so, MR. GOLDMAN: 22 the This is a deposition of Cathenine Cnoft, House Penmanent Select Committee on 23 conducted by 24 punsuant 25 House on September to the impeachment inquiny 24, announced by 2Ot9. UNCLASSIFIED the Intelligence Speaken of the 8 UNCLASSIFIED Ms. Cnoft, could you please state youn fu11 name and speI1 youn 7 fon the necond, and if you could just puII the 2 last 3 close to you. It nemains on, and you can just speak nonmally. name 4 MS. CROFT: Catherine 5 MR. GOLDMAN: So 6 Cnoft, the last name, C-n-o-f-t. if I could just a little and pull it a little Is that 7 MS. CROFT: 8 MR. GOLDMAN: YCS. 9 MS. CROFT: ask you bit closen to lift the micnophone and then -- betten? Okay. Cathenine Cnoft, the last MR. GOLDMAN: Thank 10 micnophone you. name, C-n-o-f-t. Along with othen pnoceedings and is pant of a joint L1 furtherance of the inquiry to date, this deposition t2 investigation lead 13 the Committees on Foreign Affains and Ovensight and Refonm. In the 1.4 noom 15 committees and 16 course, may ask questions during thein allotted time as has been the 17 case Intelligence Committee, in coondination with today are majonity staff and minonity staff fnom all thnee in this wiII be a eveny deposition since My name 18 by the staff-Ied deposition. Membens, of the inception of this investigation. is Daniel Goldman, I'm the dinecton of investigations fon 19 the Intelligence Committee's majonity staff, and I want to thank 20 again fon coming Let 2t me in you today. do some bnief intnoductions. To my night hene is Nicolas 22 Mitchel1, senion investigative counsel fon the Intelligence Committee. 23 Mn. 24 majonity. 25 themselves. Mitchell and I will be conducting most of the intenview fon the And now, I'11 let my minonity countenpants intnoduce UNCLASSIFIED 9 UNCLASS]FIED 1 2 MR. CASTOR: Good monning. Steve Caston, Republican the Ovensight staff of Committee. I 4 I 6 7 MR. GOLDMAN: This deposition 8 unclassified 1evel. 9 HPSCI's secune spaces and Howeven, will be conducted entinely at the the deposition is being conducted in in the pnesence of staff with appnopniate 10 secunity cleanances. And we undenstand that youn attonneys also have 11 thein secunity clearance. It is the committee's expectation that L2 neithen questions asked of you, non answens pnovided by you, will 13 nequine discussion 14 point, could of any infonmation classified be pnoperly that is cunnently, on at any 13526. You unden Executive Orden t7 that E0 L3526 states that, quote, "In no case shall infonmation be classified, continue to be maintained as classified, on fail to be declassified, " unquote, fon the punpose of concealing 18 any violations 19 entity. 15 16 20 ane neminded If any of of 1aw, or pneventing embannassment classified infonmation, please infonm us of that fact 22 the question, and we can adjust accordingly. Today's deposition of the sensitive 24 because 25 and matenials any penson on oun questions, howeven, can only be answened with 2L 23 of that will befone you answer is not being taken in executive session, but and confidential natune of be discussed, access UNCLASS]FIED some of the topics to the tnanscnipt of the 10 UNCLASSIFIED L deposition will Unden 2 be limited to the thnee committees in the House deposition nules, no Memben of 3 staff 4 today. 5 tnanscnipt aften today's deposition. memben Befone we begin, 6 Congness non any can discuss the substance of the testimony You and youn attorney will attendance. that you pnovide have an oppontunity to review the I'd like to go oven some ground nules. tnJe will 7 be following the House negulations fon depositions, which we have 8 pneviously pnovided to youn counsel. The deposition 9 10 7L t2 13 will pnoceed as follows: The majonity will be given t houn to ask questions, then the minonity will be given t houn. Theneaften, we will altennate back and forth between majonity and minonity in 45-minute nounds until questioning is complete. We will take peniodic brakes, but if you need a bneak at any time, please let us know. Under t4 the deposition nules, counsel fon othen attend. pensons on to 15 government agencies may not 16 attorney pnesent duning this deposition and I see that you have bnought L7 two. 18 the have an counsel could please state thein appeanance fon necond. Akin, Gump, Stnauss, Hauen and Feld, Washington, D.C. MS. McNAUGHTON: Abbey McNaughton, 2L 22 if MR. MACDOUGALL: Mark MacDougall, 19 20 At this time, You ane penmitted Akin, Gump, Stnauss, Hauen and Fe1d, Washington, D.C. MR. GOLDMAN: Thene 23 is a stenognaphen taking down evenything that 24 is said hene today in onden to make a wnitten 25 Fon that necond to be clean, please wait UNCLASSIFIED necond until of the deposition. each question is 11 UNCLASSIFIED 1 completed befone you begin youn answen, and we 2 finish your will wait until you the next question. response befone asking The stenographer cannot necond nonvenbal answers such as shaking 3 it is 4 youn head, so 5 audible venbal answer. We 6 ask that impontant that you answen each question with you give complete neplies If is to questions based on youn 7 best necollection. 8 youn nesponse, please 9 to a question on cannot nememben, simply say so. You may 10 a question let unclean, on you ane uncentain in us know. And only nefuse to answen a the committee. If if you do not know the answen question to pnesenve a pnivilege you nefuse to answen a question 11 necognized by t2 the basis of pnivilege, staff 13 on seek a nuling fnom the chainman on the objections. 1.4 ovennuLes any such may an on eithen pnoceed with the deposition, objection, you ane nequined to answen If the chain the question. 16 it is unlawful to delibenately provide false infonmation to Membens of Congness on staff. It is impenative t7 that you not only 18 full t9 may be 15 20 27 22 23 Finally, you ane neminded truthfully, but that you give to all questions asked of you. Omlssions answens oun questions and complete answers also considened as false statements. Now as this deposition is unden stand and naise your night-hand Do you swean that to oath, Ms. Cnoft, will you please be swonn. youn testimony pnovided hene today will be the whole tnuth and nothing but the tnuth? I 24 MS. CROFT: 25 MR. GOLDMAN: do. Let the recond neflect that the witness has UNCLASSIFIED been 72 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 swonn. Croft, ifyou Now, Ms. has any mattens have an opening statement or your attonney to discuss, now is the time. MR. MACDOUGALL: Mn. Chainman, thank you so much. Befone Ms. I would Iike to make a brief statement fon the record. Cathenine Cnoft is a caneer Foneign Senvice officen curnently wonking as special advisen for Uknaine negotiations. 0n Octoben 28th, 2OL9, Ms. Cnoft neceived a letter thnough hen lawyens Croft begins hen testimony, from Unden Secnetany of State Bnian Bu1atao, in which we wene instnucted that Ms. Cnoft cannot panticipate in the conducted by the House Unden Secretany wene issued punsuant inquiny being Repnesentatives and these committees. Bulatao's letten stated that these instnuctions to a dinective Counsel. Nonetheless, is of impeachment fnom the Office of White Ms. Cnoft has been senved House with a valid subpoena, to be hene today. While Ms. Cnoft is pnepared to nespond to all of the committee's questions to the best of hen ability, I need to address one consideration at the outset. A great deal of attention has been and so she obliged dinected to the information submitted to the Office of the Inspecton Genenal of the Intelligence Committee by an unnamed govennment employee punsuant to the Intelligence Ms. Croft Community Whistleblowen Protection Act. is not the whistleblower. As the committee's well awane, the govenning statute penmits whistleblowens to pnesenve thein anonymity. is obligated to nespect in We hen testimony today UNCLASSIFIED believe that Ms. Cnoft the IegaI standands and 13 UNCLASSIFIED 1 equities that pnotect whistleblowen anonymity in the Intelligence 2 Community. So the extent we neasonably conclude that any questions 3 dinected to Ms. Cnoft 4 this monning ane intended to assist anyone in establishing the identity of the whistleblowen, we will make the 5 necessany 6 With objections and give the witness appnopniate instnuctions. LT that, Ms. Cnoft has a bnief opening statement. THE CHAIRMAN: If I could, Counsel, before the opening statement. None of the membens of this committee on staff should ethically seek to out the whistleblowen through this witness' testimony. We will not countenance any effont to do so. And if you on your client believe questions ane dinected in that mannen, you should object. We will L2 centainly not the requine the witness to 13 violate the whistleblowen's night of anonymity. 1 8 9 10 answen questions MR. MACD0UGALL: Thank 15 MS. CROFT: Thank you fon the oppontunity the last 9 yeans it has been today. 77 as a Foneign Senvice 18 to Fon officen. would you, Mn. Chainman. L4 t6 that to provide my honon In that capacity, it to my statement senve my countny has been a pnivilege 20 of intelligence, integnity, and detenmination to advance U.S. intenests, some of whom have alneady spoken to this committee. I'm not sune that I have anything to add 2t to the testimony of those who came befone 22 questions 19 23 senve along colleagues me, but I will answen youn to the best of ability. My wonk on Uknaine stanted in 2@t3 when I was posted to the U.S. to NATO. My pontfolio included Uknaine -- 24 mission 25 nelations when the citizens of Uknaine took to the streets to UNCLASSIFIED NAT0-Uknaine demand t4 UNCLASSIFIED L a European futune and an end 2 into 3 time, we did not 4 in Ukraine 5 to 6 Cnimea, I was assigned know whene to cornuption. to NATO headquantens the tanks would posed, and continues When to Russian tanks no]led in Bnussels. At that stop. Russia's aggression pose, a neal and immediate thneat oun national intenests and a Europe fnee, whole and My at peace. finm belief in the impontance of Uknai.ne's futune to U.S. 10 desk. Fnom August 2015 to July 2@77, I was one of sevenal Ukraine desk officers at the State Depantment headquanters. In my pontfolio, I focused on security assistance, anm sa1es, and defense nefonm. But like all desk officens, LT my wonk 72 Uknaine, and holding leaden accountable fon lack 13 prosecutions. 7 8 9 74 15 national intenests Ied me to the Uknaine also included supponting effonts to combat connuption in of high leve1 In July 2OL7, as the Tnump administration was considening oventunning the ban on pnoviding Ukraine defensive weapons I was asked t7 to join the National Secunity Council staff at the White House. As the dinecton covening Uknaine, I staffed the Pnesident's December 20t7 18 decision to pnovide Uknaine with lavelin anti-tank missile systems. 1.6 20 I also staffed to September 2OL7 meeting with then-President Ponoshenko on the mangins of the U.N. Genenal Assembly. Thnoughout both, I heard, 21 directly 22 country. 19 23 and Duning indinectly, Pnesident my Tnump descnibe Uknaine as a connupt time at the NSC, I neceived multiple calls fnom lobbyist 24 Robent Livingston who 25 fired. told me that Ambassadon Yovanovitch He chanactenized Ambassadon Yovanovitch as UNCLASSIFIED should a, quote, be "Obama 15 UNCI,ASSIFIED 1 holdovenr" end quote, and associated with George Sonos. 2 clean to 3 Mn. Livingston was seeking the nemoval 4 I me at the time, on now, at documented these calls and whose told 5 Kent, who was in Kyiv at the time, I 6 was taken dinection on at of my am It was not whose expense Ambassadon Yovanovitch. boss, Fiona Hill, and Geonge not awane of any action that 8 in nesponse. I left the NSC in JuIy 2018, and started studying Anabic at the Foneign Senvice Institute in pnepanation for a toun in Baghdad. That plan was cut shont in May 2019 when I was asked 9 to take 7 oven as Ambassador Volken's advisen. I spent the month of lune in our embassy in Kyiv to 10 embedded TL of JuIy 8th pnepane, and then spent the week ovenlapping with my pnedecesson, Chnistophen Anderson. 1.4 finst time I became aware that ane Ambassadon Volken was in touch with Rudolph Giuliani. Howeven, Ambassadon Volken's convensations with Giuliani were sepanate fnom my wonk and I was 15 genenally unaware of when they spoke or what they spoke about. 16 neven had any contact t7 L8 I panticipated in a sub PCC video confenence where an OMB nepnesentative neponted that the White House chief of staff, Mick 19 Mulvaney, had placed an infonmal hold on security assistance to 20 Uknaine. 12 13 That week was the with Rudolph I have Giuliani. 0n Ju1y 18 The only neason given was that the onden came at the dinection 24 of the President. I had heand about the hold before that date, but I do not nememben the specific date. Duning the July 25 phone call between Pnesident Trump and Pnesident Zelensky, I was tnaveling with Ambassadon Volker in Kyiv. I did not listen in on the call. I 25 accompanied Ambassadon Volker 2L 22 23 in meetlngs with UNCLASSIFTED Uknaine officials, and 16 UNCLASSIFIED L to the line of contact 2 fonces 3 in The between Uknainian anmed fonces and Russian-Ied eastenn Uknaine. only neadout I got of the July 25 call was based on what 4 Pnesident Zelensky told Ambassadons Vo1ken, Taylon, and Sondland about 5 the call at a meeting on July 26th. The focus of the caII, as I 6 understood 7 Tnump and Pnesident 8 undue Pnesident Tnump's 9 it, was to schedule a face-to-face meeting between Pnesident Zelensky. We hope that such a meeting would help long-held view of Uknaine as a conrupt countny. Since Ju1y, my sole focus has been supponting effonts to nesolve 10 the conflict in eastenn Uknaine. Zelensky's election and his t7 to tackle connuption ignited a new enengy and to stal1 talks. Right 72 now, even as Uknainians face casualties neanly eveny day 73 of thein own tennitony against L4 making pnogress in mandate defense Russian aggnession, decide they ane 19 in disengaging at key crossing points. Zelensky has shown a willingness to take political nisk to bning Russia back to the table. His best chance at success is with oun suppont, along with oun Eunopean partnens. It is my hope that even as this committee's pnocess plays out, we do not lose sight of what is happening in Uknaine, and its gneat pnomise as a pnospenous and 20 democnatic memben of 2t Thank you 15 16 t7 18 22 23 the Eunopean Community. fon the oppontunity to speak, and welcome your questions. THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. Goldman is recognized fon EXAMINATION 24 25 I BY MR. GOLDMAN: UNCLASSIFIED t houn. L7 UNCLASSIFIED 3 again. So just so we'ne clean about youn backgnound, you wene at the -- on the Uknaine desk at the State Depantment in D.C. hene fron 2@L5 to JuIy 20t7. Is 4 that 1 2 5 a Thank you, Mr. Chainman. Ms. Cnoft, welcome night? A That's connect. 8 a So if you want to just puII the micnophone towand you and leave it on, then you can just and it will be easien. THE CHAIRMAN: It will be pointed right at youn mouth, it will 9 be picked up. 6 7 10 MR. GOLDMAN: BY MR. GOLDMAN: 11 t2 13 L4 It is fon the folks in the back. a And then July 2@17 at the National Secunity A That's connect. to July 2Ot8 you wene the Uknaine dinector Council? 18 a Fnom luly 2@L8 until l(ay 20L9, what, if anything, did you have to do with Uknaine? A Nothing in any official capacity. a Did you still maintain an intenest and keep up to date on 19 what was going 15 16 17 20 2t 22 23 24 25 A on? Yes. a How come? A I had been wonking on Uknaine fon sevenal yeans. I was intenested as a foneign policy pnofessional, and I nemained fniends with those who wonk in the field. a And who did you speak to in onden UNCLASS]FIED to keep up to date on what 18 UNCLASSIFTED L 2 was happening with Uknaine? A I followed closely on Twitten, which is a pnetty good sounce I in contact with my pnedecesson, 3 of infonmation. 4 Andenson. 5 Ukraine desk at the State Depantment; and I And remained nemained in contact with fniends that I Chnis wene senving on the nemained in touch with my 8 at the Uknainian embassy, my Uknainian colleagues. a You said in youn opening statement -- let me ask you this: How awane wene you in neal time of the issues that anose in Manch and 9 Apnil of this yean with 6 7 10 11 colleagues A To the extent those events wene neponted in the media, I Did you speak to anybody at the State Depantment about what a 13 was going on? 15 16 17 18 A Not that I necall. a Did you speak to Ambassadon Yovanovitch? A I sent hen one email just telling hen I was sonny fon what was happening. a And you said in youn opening statement that 19 at the 20 Yovanovitch. Is that night? 21 22 23 24 25 was tnacking that. t2 74 Ambassadon Yovanovitch? NSC, you neceived some messages that wene when you wene cnitical of Ambassadon A That's connect. a From Bob Livingston. Is that night? A That's connect. a And who is Bob Livingston? A I had neven met Bob Livingston, I undenstood him to UNCLASSIFIED being 19 UNCLASSIF]ED 7 a lobbyist. a Pnion to being a lobbyist, do you know what he did? A By vintue of googling, I did, yes. a And what was that? A That he had senved in Congness. a And do you necall when he finst contacted you? A Not specifically, no. a And how many times did you hear from him? A I can say with centainty at least twice, but I believe mone 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 9 10 times than that. a A LL L2 What As I exactly do you necaI1 him saying to neponted 13 that L4 and made mention 15 she had a in to go, she should of 77 penfonmance, on any 20 2t 22 23 fined, that I necall him saying she was an Obama holdoven, with Geonge Sonos. 0then than being an Obama holdoven, on an alleged connection do Geonge Soros, did he 19 be statement, hen somehow being connected 16 18 my opening you? -- did he mention anything about hen positions that she had taken? A I don't specifically necaIl. a Anything else you can nememben about what he had said to you? A Not without looking at the notes that I took contemponaneously but no longer have access to. a And what did you do aften he -- aften you spoke to him? A I reponted the conversations both to my then-boss Fiona HilI, 24 and then 25 embassy to in Geonge Kent who was then deputy chief of mission at Kyiv. UNCLASSIFIED oun 20 UNCLASSIFIED a A L 2 3 thein neaction? They wene, I think, a A -- you knew Ambassadon You had that I was awane hen of. Yovanovitch fnom your work Yes. 8 a And at the NSC? A That's conrect. 9 a 7 And what was youn assessment of hen competence and capabilities as a diplomat? A I LL 12 at the maligning of on the Uknaine desk? 6 10 dismayed chanacten, but no dinect action was taken 4 5 What was assessed hen to be an extnaondinanily competent and skillful diplomat, and a pleasune to a 13 What wonk fon and with. did you undenstand the allegations about 15 -- nelated to Geonge Sonos to be? A At the time, conspinacy theonies wene floating in the media about Geonge Soros, including allegations that Fiona Hill was L7 affiliated, in some fashion, with George Sonos. 18 to 19 somebody 74 15 20 Geonge of a bnoaden narnative be pant a of some And you 2t that thene 22 naised used So I this to malign public officials that interest disagneed with. indicated the conspinacy theory. Did you understand was any validity to any of the concenns that Mn. Livingston ? that I of, 23 A Not 24 a Did you neceive any othen complaints about 25 undenstood was awane Yovanovitch while you wene no. at the National Secunity UNCLASSIFIED Ambassadon Council? 27 UNCLASSIFIED A L 2 that I a Do Not 6 a Wene Sessions thene wene any othen complaints made by anyone that I can specifically necalI night now. you awane of a letten wnitten by Representative Pete in the middle of 2@L8? A I don't have a necollection of that letten night now. a Why ane you smiling? A Because I simply don't nememben it. It seems like I should, 8 9 10 but 72 13 if else on to anyone else? Did you hean anything about that? A 11 specifically necall without neviewing my notes you know 5 7 can from the time. 3 4 Not I don't. a 0kay. So, you said that you wene following the issues nelated to Ambassadon Yovanovitch eanlien this yean fnom the media? A That's connect. a And based on youn knowledge and expertise about Uknaine t4 15 and 16 youn wonking nelationship with Ambassadon Yovanovitch, wene you aware L7 of any factual basis for 18 hen? A a 19 20 any of the allegations that wene made against No. Now, you said ln youn opening statement that you wene -- that 2L you staffed Pnesident Tnump's meeting with Pnesident Ponoshenko in 22 Septemben Was that night? A That's connect. a And you said that Pnesident 23 24 25 20L7. was Trump had concenns a connupt country at the time? UNCLASSIFIED that Uknaine 22 UNCLASSIFIED 7 2 3 wene Yes. A The Pnesident, Can you explain a little bit mone about what concenns a 6 wene. He just And based on youn expenience working Uknaine 8 senious connuption? A Yes. I think it 9 t2 13 74 was well-known connuption among senion leadenship -- a In fact, U.S. a You said you wene A a 18 in Kyiv. also involved in the decision to provide Yes. And that was a significant endeavon to defensive assistance to Uknaine in their wan to fend 20 fnom 22 to pnovide lethal off its aggnession Russia. Is that night? A a 2L 25 had suffened fnom that thene was a lot of 19 24 you lavelins to Uknaine at the end of 20L7, Is that night? t7 23 issues, did official policy towands Uknaine has been -- one significant aspect of U.S. official policy nelated to Uknaine has been to stamp out connuption. Is that night? A That's correct. 15 16 own simply descnibed Uknaine as connupt. also believe that in the past, Uknaine had been tl concenns at the time, didn't elabonate what his 7 10 his ? 4 5 A a Yes, that was a veny significant policy change. When was the -- when were the lavelins ultimately appnoved to Uknaine. Do you necall with any specificity? A That was in Decemben of 2017. a And at that time, when wene they supposed to be delivened? be pnovided UNCLASS]FIED 23 UNCLASS]FIED 1 A did not include a specific deliveny The decision date 2 that -- 3 around and things 4 able to physically move the equipment on anticipate a deployment date. 5 6 7 8 9 L0 11 t2 13 T4 15 a because Soon that nequines planning and, like that. until aften the decision place about the timing A So you know, moving equipment we had the decision, was made, was thene we wenen't a plan put in of the deliveny? Yes. a And do you recall the finst tanget date? A I don't necalI. a Do you necall if thene wene even any delays nelated pnoviding the lavelins A Fnom to to Uknaine? the date of the Pnesident's decision to the deliveny, no I'm not awane of any delays. a Ane you awane of -- so when, ultimately, wene the Javelins pnovided? Do you recal1? 18 A I don't necall the specific date, no. a If -- would it -- if I told you thene's been some neponting that it was towands the end of Manch of 2@1.8, would that sound conrect 19 to you? 16 L7 20 2t A a That sounds Wene you -- that sounds neasonable, yeah. also awane, at that time as Ukraine dinecton, that 22 Uknaine somewhat suddenly ceased 23 Counsel's investigation? 24 25 to coopenate A I'm sonny. a Special Counsel Robent Muellen? UNCLASSIFIED with the Special 24 UNCLASSIFIED A a 1 2 Can you nepeat Anound that the question? same time, Manch, -- April, 20L8, thene that they was 3 neporting that Uknaine stopped 4 stop cooperating with Special Counsel Robent Muellen's investigation. 5 Wene you awane 7 A a 8 at that 5 9 announced wene going of that? No. You wene on the National Secunity Council as Uknaine dinecton time? A Yes. I don't have any specific memory of any convensations 10 with Uknainians about the Muellen investigation, on panticipation 11 coopenation. 16 a Did you nead it in the pness? A I imagine I would have at the time. a You just don't nememben it sitting hene today? A I do not. a Undenstood. L7 Let's L2 13 14 15 I 18 question 19 was going 20 2L move ahead to 2OL9, w€'11 go had on Ambassadon to back. Yovanovitch: When So did you hean that she be necalled from Kyiv? A I would have nead it in the news along with evenybody else. a Did you have any convensations with Geonge Kent on anyone else at the State Depantment about the allegations against 23 Yovanovitch 25 on the one other 22 24 to A a Ambassadon ? Othen than what was in my opening And so you only followed it statement, no. from the media? UNCLASSIFIED 25 UNCLASSIFIED t 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 A That's cornect. As fan as I necall, yeah. a When were you asked to become the special assistant for Uknaine negotiations? A In May of this yean. a Who asked you? A Chnistophen Anderson. a And what was his nole at the time? A He was special advisen to Ambassadon a So he asked you to neplace him? A That's connect. a And just one second. IDiscussion off the necond.] BY MR. GOLDMAN: 13 L4 15 16 L7 18 19 Volken. a A a A a agneed What did Mn. Andenson say to He asked me And did you if I wanted you? his job. agnee immediately? No. What was youn -- what was your pnocess befone you ultimately ? 22 A I said, ho, in mone on less that tone of voice. And then thought about it fon a litt1e while and said, maybe I will think about it. And so we spoke again a couple of times, I think, in the following 23 week on two. 20 2t 24 25 a And when did you ultimately agnee to take the job? A I don't nememben the specific date, but it was noughly eanly UNCLASSIFIED 26 UNCLASSIFIED 1 to mid-May. 5 a And when did you officially come on boand? A I think you could measune it by when I tnaveled to Kyiv, which I believe was May 29th, but thene I was embedded in the political section fon a month, and then officially started hene in Washington on July 5 8. 2 3 4 10 a So you wene in Kyiv fnom May 29th until when? A July 1, I believe. a One thing I just want to go back to before I move ahead to your time in Kyiv, the Javelins -- the pnovision of the lavelins in 11 20 12 hold on a fneeze put on the lavelin pnovision? 7 8 9 13 -- Late 2QL7, eanly 2O18, A Thene was 74 at the PC leveI, 15 one agency L6 77 18 19 20 27 22 23 24 25 a A a PCC do you necall whether thene was ever hold pnocess, and thene was one excuse me, a sonny, the pnincipals committee, and there was that put a hold on that decision. And which was that agency? OMB. a Did you understand why? A I undenstood the neason to be a policy one. a What was the policy one? A In a bniefing with Mn. Mulvaney, the question centered anound the Russian neaction. a What was the concenn about the Russian neaction? A That Russia would neact negatively to the pnovision of lavelins to Uknaine. UNCLASSIF]ED 27 UNCLASSIFIED t 2 a agencies concenn fnom the othen ? can pnovide that infonmation in an unclassified setting. a Okay. Is thene any way to pnovide bnoadly? A I can bnoadly say that all of the policy agencies wene in 5 6 7 the neaction to that A I don't know that I 3 4 What was suppont. a And you mean in suppont of pnoviding the lavelins? A Connect. a So how long was this hold placed? A I don't necall specifically, penhaps a week on two. a And just to be clean, this policy went all the way up the 8 9 10 11 L2 13 chain fnom sub PCC, L4 conrect to PCC, to DC, to pnincipals committee. Is that ? 20 A That's correct. A And at all of the pnion leveIs, so to speak, was thene any -- was thene any concenn expnessed about this policy change? A I think to go into specific details about what was discussed at those meetings I would need to be in a classified setting. a I was just asking was thene any concenn expnessed by anybody 2L that 15 16 77 18 19 22 23 24 25 A A11 of the agencies were in agneement. a Okay. Including OMB up until the pnincipals committee? A I don't necall OMB expnessing a policy objection at those levels. UNCLASSTFIED 28 UNCLASSIFTED 1 z 3 a 5 6 7 8 9 10 tt L2 13 L4 15 16 t7 18 19 20 2! 22 23 24 25 Q lust so we undenstand, what role does OMB have in making foneign - - official foneign policy? A I think, typically, its nole is usually limited to the budget side of things. So it was nathen unusual to have OMB expressing concenns that Q wene punely policy-based and And youn expenience, Depantment on either on the not budget-oriented. Uknaine desk at the National Secunity Council, at the State wene you awane of OMB, in any othen cincumstance, expnessing policy nesenvations? A At the beginning of the Uknainian lavelin pnocess, I had been told that wonking OMB was taking a policy intenest. level officials to attend meetings, which was very unusual at the time. And even a A a is quite taxing at the sub PCC leveI, they wenen't just attending Uknaine-nelated meetings, they wene coming which, as an aside, And oMB began sending to all of oun meetings, on a very small organization. Small onganization being the National Security Council? No, on Got it. OMB to staff that Got it. So numben they -- of meetings. OMB took an intenest in countnies othen than Ukraine policy as well? A a Yes. -- you said that the hold was a week on two. How -- what was the pnocess fon the hold to be ]ifted? What did you undenstand How the reasoning to A I be? was asked, along with my brief Mick Mulvaney on the decision. on two, the hold was colleague, Richand Hooker to We lifted. UNCLASSIFIED did so, and then go within a day 29 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 a And can you, without getting into classified material, you explain what youn bnoad message was A that the potential issues on all fnonts 5 and sussed 6 policy moving fonwand -- on about 7 Pnesident. 9 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 Mn. Mulvaney? BnoadIy, the message was that the policy pnocess had wonked, 4 8 to can out, and that had been thonoughly discussed in agneement about the thein necommendation to the had the agencies wene Did you address the concerns that he had expnessed about a Russia's reaction to this policy change? A Yes. a What did you say? A I think that's the pant that I can't nefen to hene. a Who dinected you to go bnief Mn. Mulvaney? A I believe it was a staffen at OMB that said that Mn. Mulvaney wanted to be briefed. L7 if the decision was made at the end of Decemben to pnovide the lavelins. Did that decision go thnough the whole PCC 18 pnocess 16 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 a And do you - - ? A I'm sonny, the lavelin decision? a Yes. A Yes. Sub PCC, PCC, DC, PC. a So at that point, the decision at the end of the Decemben had already been thnough this process? A That's connect. a So what was the pnocess that Mn. Mulvaney intenvened in if UNCLASSIFIED 30 UNCLASSIFIED 1 it had alneady approved? A At the 2 PC Ievel, he objected. 4 a So he objected in Decemben? I'm asking if the initial decision, on did he object to the nelease 5 the lavelins? 3 A f see. I 6 7 PC, was A A 8 9 10 it a The undenstand papen PC, but he objected in the Befone the decision in a Undenstood. Okay. 15 Now in -- did 15 Mulvaney? A I 77 18 Decemben? in the tee-up to that Rob Blain have a nole in this undenstood him to be playing some pnocess with Mn. sort of policy role in a What was that nole that you undenstood? A I don't know specifically. 20 a Did you even have any convensation with Mn. Blair about this? A I did not, no. a Do you know whethen the Pnesident weighed in, in any nespect, 2t 22 23 25 PC. bniefing Mn. Mulvaney. 19 24 Decemben, in the that had nothing to do with the timing of the actual provision of the Javelins to Uknaine? A It held up the ovenall decision-making timeline. 1.4 13 He objected decision. So t2 on provision of oniginal one about the decision ultimately in a 11 the question now. he objected to on this A decision? The decision was made by the Pnesident. UNCLASSIFIED 31 UNCLASSIFIED t a I you undenstand. But do you know whethen the Pnesident it a diffenent way. Do you know whethen -- let the 2 me ask 3 Pnesident - - whethen Mn. Mulvaney was nelaying the Pnesident' s concenns 4 when he put the hold on fon fean of the impact on Russia? 10 A I don't know if the Pnesident and Mn. Mulvaney spoke on this. a Okay. A I don't have any independent knowledge. a In youn meeting with Mn. Mulvaney, did he refenence the Pnesident's views at alli A Not that I necall, but the President's views wene pnetty 11 well-known. 5 6 7 8 9 L2 13 L4 15 a A And what wene they? a A tllhy? The Pnesident was When this was skeptical of pnoviding weapons discussed, including in fnont of the Ukrainian 16 delegation, in fnont of Pnesident Ponoshenko, 77 being that Uknaine was connupt, that 18 nich country, and that the United 19 instead, we should be pnoviding aid thnough loans. 20 2L 22 23 to Uknaine. it he descnibed his concerns of being a veny States shouldn't pay for it, but was capable a Okay. And so how did that relate to the pnovision lavelins of ? A I'm sorny. What do you mean? a You said the Pnesident's views on Uknaine wene veny 24 weII-known. how the views that you just 25 expnessed, might impact the ultimate decision to pnovide Javelins to And I'm trying to undenstand UNCLASSIFIED 32 UNCLASSIFIED I the Uknaine? A 2 3 Ponoshenko a 4 5 in A to his nesponse dinectly to President desine fon lavelins. Ah, okay. And wene the Javelins, at that time, that being pnovided, 6 7 So those views wene expnessed wene a -- what -- a gift, or wene they being sold to Uknaine? They wene being pnovided using gnant assistance thnough foneign militany financing. 8 a 9 suppont just so we undenstand, ultimately it was U.S. financial to Uknaine that Uknaine used to punchase the lavelins? So Yes. 11 A a 72 pay fon their 13 Pnesident Poroshenko's nequest fon letha1 militany assistance? Is t4 that an accunate summary? 10 So you indicated the President's views that Uknaine should own - - pay their own way, effectively, in reaction to A That's how I undenstood the Pnesident's comments, yes. a Aften that meeting with President Ponoshenko, did you have 15 16 17 any occasion 18 on -- leann the Pnesident's views more specifically duning the policy pnocess A 19 to Inasmuch as I was to pnovide the lavelins? tasked, and netasked, and retasked, to wnite papen to help him make the case 20 netasked by Genenal McMaster 27 to the Pnesident, I stanted to get a sense of 22 concerns wene. a A 23 24 25 up and what the Pnesident's And what were those concenns? That Ukraine to do mone to is connupt, and that Eunope should be stepping pnovide security assistance UNCLASSIFIED to Uknaine. 33 UNCLASSIFIED 2 Did you have an undenstanding at that time as a t secunity assistance Eunope was pnoviding 3 A Yes. 4 a And did it I 5 how 6 was pnoviding? A 7 mean, compane The - - taking to to to Ukraine? all the Eunopean -- EU countries how much how much togethen, security assistance the United States oun Eunopean pantnens in genenal thein secunity is significantly less than U.S. secunity assistance. 8 assistance 9 ane, by fan, the lead. We L4 a That's on an individual countny basis, on all told? A Even all told. a Because thene's been neponting that all told -- does that change oven time, I guess, is the question since 2@17 to the pnesent? A So oun Uknainian pantnens do pnovide secunity assistance, 15 and they do pantnen 16 they do pnovide sepanately t7 assistance. But the quantities ane significantly less than what the 18 United States provides. One of the cases that we wene attempting to 19 make 20 oun Eunopean pantnens lead on pnoviding 2t which, I think, 22 cincumstances 23 wene cLosely 10 11 L2 13 24 25 at the time with us in tnaining the Uknaine armed fonces, and was that some equipment and othen financial even though we lead on secunity assistance, overall economic assistance, it's fainly easy to make the case that in these Uknainian in 20L5, L6, L7, economic secunity and national secunity tied. a Okay. on what you wene So just calling so we'ne clean, the European countnies Ied economic assistance, and UNCLASSIFIED the United States 34 UNCLASSIFIED T led on what you'ne calling secunity assistance? 5 A I think that's connect, Y€S. a And how -- can you explain the difference between the two? A So Won1d Bank, IMF, EBRD, EU genenally, then bilateraIly, sevenal of oun Eunopean partnens -- also credit to Japan -- were 6 pnoviding 7 economic 8 Russia's invasion 2 3 4 a 9 10 LT L2 a economic loan guarantees and othen forms of sont of aid to help stabilize the country, immediately following in 2075. Would you say both ane important to Ukraine's viability as democracy? A Absolutely. I think without that, that assistance, Uknaine wouldn't be in the nelatively stable position that it is in now. 15 a And would you say that the secunity assistance -- how should I say this is mone specifically appnopniated than economic assistance? In othen wonds, does secunity assistance, is it tied more 16 dinectly to panticulan aspects of suppont than the t7 would 13 L4 18 be? A Yes. I think bipantisan meant tnemendous 20 that has meant 2L nefonm and pnovision 23 suppont for Uknaine in Congness has support, specifically on secunity assistance, 19 22 economic assistance some and specific conditionality, including on defense of defensive weapons, and/or counten antilleny radan is pant of the ovenall legislative package. a As pant of that legislative package, in onden to pnovide the 24 secunity assistance, thene ane a numben of conditions that Ukraine must 25 meet. Is that night? UNCLASSIFIED 35 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 A That's night. a And you -- I think you descnibed a couple of them, but could you just list the ones that you'ne awane of? 6 A I think the key one is with regand to the Uknaine Security Assistance Initiative on USAI, which is the DOD pot of money, which is specifically tied to DOD making a centification that Uknaine has 7 made adequate pnogness 8 implementation of that legislation, the State Depantment and 9 wonked 4 5 10 in defense nefonm. And then, sont of, DOD have together to, sont of, set standands fon what it is we expect Uknaine to do to nefonm its defense secton. that also include anticonnuption effonts? t2 a A Yes. 13 a But economic assistance that Eunope is the lead on, does TL the And does -- are you awane of L4 have 15 the same conditionality? A 16 same The whethen Eunope lt insists on some of conditionality fon economic assistance tends to be set t7 sont of which IMF in the lead and then with othen economic 18 international financial institutions an countnies like the United on 2t falling behind on the IMF's lead on what conditionality would look like. a Okay. So just to close the loop on this, Mn. Mulvaney's 22 concenns about 23 you hean aften youn meeting with Mn. Mulvaney, whethen he had 24 conversation with the President about 25 was 19 20 States sont of the impact on Russia, do you know whethen the -- did a this issue before the decision made? UNCLASSIFIED 36 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A I'm sonny, befone the lavelin decision in 2 a Yes. 3 A No, I'm not aware of any convensations dinectly between the 4 two of a 5 6 A a 9 10 cornect 13 was Genenal McMasten's stnong view that the U.S. He also agreed. So all the pnincipals of the intenagency agreed. Is that Yes. And to youn knowledge, unusual intenvention, A Yes 15 except fon a t7 18 it ? A a t2 16 And about. to Uknaine. Is that connect? A Yes, also General Mattis at the time. a General Mattis. What about Secnetany of State Tillerson? 8 74 that I necall being told should pnovide the lavelins 7 11 them 2OL7? it sgnny, it was a pnetty -- was broadly supponted by I need othen than OMB's the policymakers? to nevise. Yes, evenybody agneed OMB. A11 night. And could you just explain why -- I'm sonny, Mn. Chainman. THE CHAIRMAN: 19 to Befone counsel goes on to a diffenent subject, I ask a few follow-up questions. You mentioned that -- at one 20 want 2L point that you had taken notes contemporaneously with events. Is that 22 a pattenn of yours, on a practice of I try to. 23 MS. CROFT: 24 THE CHAIRMAN: And 25 Department fon yours? did you neceive a nequest fnom the State all of notes and documents and neconds related to the UNCLASSIFIED 37 UNCLASSIFIED 1 investigation ? 2 MS. CROFT: Yes. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: So 4 to 5 have been pnovided the notes that you would have taken relevant Uknaine duning the counse of youn time wonking on this, 6 to the State Depantment? MS. CROFT: Yes, those have all been provided. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: My 8 naised by Mulvaney. 9 naise these concenns 10 night colleague asked you about concenns that were If I undenstand correctly, Mr. Mulvaney didn't in penson, they wene naised on paper. Is that ? MS. CROFT: Yes, 1L 72 of a papen PC. 13 THE 14 in an objection on CHAIRMAN: So duning the counse -- in -- during the of the counse papen PC, Mn. Mulvaney objected in wniting to the pnovision of the lavelins at that point? 15 MS. CROFT: Yes. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: And ane you L7 would those fonum able to te11 us in an uncLassified the nature of his objection? objection. And 19 then as I said befone, when we spoke to him, Robent Hooken and f, he 20 asked about MS. CROFT: 18 2t 22 I can say in policy based you say he asked -- he asked in person on he wniting? MS. CROFT: He 23 was a the Russian neaction. THE CHAIRMAN: When asked that it 24 in wniting, 25 was blocked -- he blocked the decision and then subsequently we bniefed him the convensation where he -- in at the PC level penson, and that whene he asked questions about the UNCLASSIFIED 38 UNCLASSIFIED L Russian neaction. THE CHAIRMAN: And 2 as best you can nememben, when did the OMB 7 first put its hold on the pnovision of the lavelins? And when was the decision made to nelease the hold MS. CROFT: I don't reca1l the veny specific dates without access to my files fnom that time, which I don't have access to. THE CHAIRMAN: That would be documented in the reconds you 8 pnovided 3 4 5 6 10 to the State Depantment? MS. CROFT: No. Those would be neconds fnom my time at the National Secunity Council, which would be -- which are in the National 11 Anchives. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: L2 Iet's Okay. We11, given ask fon the best 13 us today, L4 the hold put in place? About 15 made of how we don't have those with recollection. About when was long elapsed befone the decision was to release the lavelin? MS. CROFT: My best guess, 16 youn that without access to 77 believe that that would have pnobably been in 18 Decemben, when, my notes, is I Novemben on early 19 I think, back to when the Pnesident made his decision. In the time that it took to facilitate the Pnesident's decision, I don't 20 necall specifically when the papen PC went out, what those dates wene. CHAIRMAN: So you're 27 THE 22 MS. CROFT: 23 THE CHAIRMAN: And 24 the range of 25 weeks how talking about November, Decemben, 2Ot7? That's conrect. can you give us sont of youn best estimate of long the hold would have been put ? UNCLASSIFIED in place, how many 39 UNCLASSlFIED 2 necollection MS. CROFT: My 1 without my notes, it's hand to about 2 weeks, but like I said, refnesh my memony. to Uknaine those 2 weeks, in tenms of what you wene following in pness THE CHAIRMAN: And what was 3 is 4 duning 5 accounts? Do you going on with nespect nememben? 7 I don't. I was veny focused on the lavelin decision. I don't have a specific memony of what was happening in the pness at 8 the time. 6 MS. CROFT: THE CHAIRMAN: 9 Duning the peniod, either befone the hold, duning 10 the hold, on aften the ho1d, wene you awane of any discussions going TL on about Uknaine's t2 MueIIen investigation? panticipation on nonpanticipation in assisting the MS. CROFT: Nothing 13 that I was doing in my wonk at the National t4 Secunity Council in any way nelated to what was happening in the Muellen 15 investigation. THE CHAIRMAN: 16 No, f understand that. But we'ne obviously 77 looking at allegations concenning the hold-up of militany assistance 18 in 19 Uknaine asks 20 know duning 2L And as I'm sune you'ne awane fnom public accounts, thene ane questions 22 about why that hold was placed, and testlmony 23 political demands by 24 25 2@1-9. hJe'ne -- looking at a necond in which the Pnesident of says he's almost neady to get mone Javelins. And this So what call peniod thene is a hold put on military that we assistance. was nelated to the Pnesident. I'm asking you is, did it come to your attention in any way, shape, or fonm, thnough convensation, open neponting or othenwise, UNCLASSIFIED 40 UNCLASSIFIED factons behind the first hold on the Javelins, L that thene 2 the 2Ot7 hold on the Javelins, that wene not related to policy, that 3 may have been 4 Uknaine may have been nelated to investigations that the Pnesident wanted the 6 to do, on wonk that the Pnesident wanted Uknaine to nefnain from doing in connection with the Muellen investigation? MS. CROFT: I was not awane of any connection between those two 7 things, 8 the Muellen investigation at that time. I would say that 9 decision to hold on the lavelin decision at the 5 and don't necaLl having any convensations with PC 10 signaled intenest in engaging in a policy basis LT but had -And 72 was pnoceeded by in fact, I had, OMB engagement on anybody about Ievel, given OMB's came as a sunprise, the issue. thnoughout fnom the beginning of my time at negularly to infonm them about we wene doing on 13 the L4 the lavelins in orden to tny to oven -- overcome any policy NSC, engaged OMB OMB's concenns t7 that I could thnough the wonk of the intenagency. So, in my mind, because I hadn't heand any connection between what was happening in tenms of the Muellen investigation and secunity assistance, I had not 18 made that connection, and nobody had made that connection to me. THE CHAIRMAN: I'm jumping fonwand a bit hene, but in 2@19' you 20 wene not a pant of the convensations about specific investigations, 27 the Pnesident had sought in connection with White 22 militany assistance, that you wene largely not in the loop on that? 15 16 19 I 23 MS. CROFT: 24 THE CHAIRMAN: 25 that you have was House meeting on largely not in the loop on that. Jumping back to 2Ot7 again, the policy nationale anticulated in tenms of not wanting to UNCLASSIFIED angen the Russians 47 UNCLASS]FIED L by providing Javelins 2 to do it, 3 naised with you 4 the OMB to Uknaine, thene was a stnong policy objected to it. Did any of the OMB objections that wene diffen fnom the concenn about angering on upsetting Russians? that I recall. 5 MS. CROFT: Not 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. Goldman. BY MR. GOLDMAN: 7 consensus 8 a 9 IDiscussion Moving back to 2019, I just want off the necond.] UNCLASSfFIED to -- 42 UNCLASSIFIED 1. [10:15 a.m.] BY MR. GOLDMAN: 2 a 3 4 5 5 7 8 You said that you initially told Mn. Andenson no and you had nesenvations. What wene youn nesenvations? lot of work on Ukraine. I was looking forwand to my assignment in Baghdad, and I think the nature of connuption in Uknaine always made it a tnicky countny to wonk on. a By May, and you wene -- wene you awane of -- withdnawn. A I'd alneady done a You have alneady 9 accounts nelated 11 Yovanovitch, night? A a 13 L4 to 15 inqui 15 t7 18 some ny about you wene following the pness to the false allegations against 10 72 testified Yes. Wene you also awane of other nannatives of these othen investigations that ane in the media nelated the subject of this ? A I was following the lohn Solomon neponting in The Hill with concenn and intenest. a And what do you necall about the John Solomon neponting, 19 sepanate and apant from anything 20 Yovanovitch 21 Ambassador A in connection with Ambassadon ? He appeaned to be building a case based on souncing through 23 of the Ukrainian Embassy in the United States, at the time, I think, veny 24 focused on those two, that there was some connection between Uknaine 25 and interfenence 22 then-Pnosecutor Genenal Lutsenko, and a fonmen employee in the 2016 elections, UNCLASSIFIED and the then-Ukrainian 43 UNCLASS]FIED 1 administnation having a pnefenence fon the outcome of the 2 election. And wene you awane 3 a 4 allegations, 5 A I based on youn was awane of any factual basis that Paul Manafont was associated of counse, had been ousted Yanukovych negime, which, 7 Ponoshenko would have been 8 that that might be sont of an angle of inquiny. 10 LI suppont those time focused on Uknaine around 20L6? 6 9 to 2016 with the and then-Pnesident a nival of Yanukovych. So I anticipated I don't undenstand. What does that have to do with allegations of -- Yanukovych was nemoved in 2@L4, night? a the A Right. L6 a Okay. So the -- what ane the -- can you explain a litt1e mone to me? A It's a little blt weind. So Ponoshenko and Yanukovych wene, of counse, nivals. Ponoshenko saw that Trump's campaign managen was affiliated with Yanukovych, and so I could imagine at the time that L7 Ponoshenko would have concenns about 18 following the 20L6 election. L2 13 74 15 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 I was also awane potential policy shifts on Uknaine that the Republican platfonm had changed with to pnovision of secunity assistance in the lead-up to that election. So I imagined that Ponoshenko was paying attention to that fact as well. negand a Okay. but you wene not A So you undenstand why thene might be awane of a motivation, any factual basis fon those allegations? Connect, absolutely. UNCLASSIFTED 44 UNCLASSIFIED a L And wene you awane by May that Rudy 3 of these nannatives? A Yes. I stanted to see some of the 4 a 2 5 to And then wene you aware A I a one of Hunten Biden's nole And were you awane in the Uknainian enengy that that was -- that whole subject of the things that Mn. Giuliani t2 anticle 13 attention, 1.4 to L7 was awane was pnomoting was in the media? A I became aware when he stanted tweeting about it. a And do you neca11 that there was a fairly -- there was an 11 15 at that time about a nanrative related secton fnom my time on the Uknaine desk. 10 15 same nannatives pop up. Bunisma Holdings and Vice President Biden? 8 9 was also pnomoting some 6 7 Giuliani May 9th in The New Yonk Times that got a fain whene Mn. pnessune Giuliani said that the Uknainian Government he was going to amount of go to Ukraine fon investigations? A Yes. I -a Was this during the time that you wene considening on not to take this whether job? 20 A Yeah. I don't actually nememben the day that Chnis and I had that convensation, but it was pnobably anound that time. a And how, if at all, did these nannatives that wene being 2L played out in the media, through Mr. Giuliani and othens, affect youn 22 thinking on 18 19 23 24 25 whethen you wene going to take this job? A They made me centainly a 1ot more trepidatious. a tllhy? A I knew fnom my experience on the Uknaine desk and fnom working UNCLASSIFIED 45 UNCLASSIFIED that, like I said befone, the nature of the 1 at the 2 Uknaine makes NSC connuption in 3 it a panticularly difficult countny to wonk on, because it is difficult to know at any given time what intenests ane behind 4 what actions. 5 But one of the reasons that 6 was because 7 and advise I felt I the was pnobably Depantment to I ultimately agreed to take the job better positioned than most to help manage those tnicky watens, and because L4 I didn't want anyone else to get exposed to what I'm doing today. a What do you mean by that? You took one fon the team? A Yes. a What wene you concenned about othens having to deal with? A That I was watching those nanratives play out in the media, and I thought at the time that it was possible that the Tnump administnation would choose to change its policy to suit domestic 15 politics. 8 9 1.0 11 12 13 16 t7 18 19 a Did you have any convensations with Ambassadon Volken before you took the job? A Actually, no. I'd We knew each aLneady -- I'd wonked with him befone. other fnom befone. 23 a Do you necall when you finst spoke with him? A In this capacity or in general? a Sonny. Yes, in this capacity, aften you -- I guess aften you accepted the job, when was the finst time that you spoke with 24 Ambassadon Volker? 20 2t 22 25 A It would have been when I got back from Kyiv the week of the UNCLASSTFIED 46 UNCLASSIFIED 1 8th, but I 'm not centain specifically. 0h, it 2 with 3 whatever date was when we had a meeting .So that was. I don't have the specific date with me. 7 a Was that in D.C. A That was hene in D.C., yes. a So you didn't speak with Ambassadon Volker fnom May until you returned to D.C. aften July 1st, even though you wene going to be 8 wonking 4 5 6 ? A No, I 9 a 10 LL 12 13 t4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 dinectly for wene spoke him? with Chnis. He was Did you speak with Mn. Andenson about these nannatives that playing out in the media nelated to Mn. Giuliani? A Not until I got back. a When you -- duning the time that when you annived A you wene in Kyiv -- weII, in Kyiv, who was leading the Embassy? The now DCM, Knistina Kvien, had just anrived anound the same time that I did, I think. a A So Ambassadon Yovanovitch was gone? She was gone. a The fonmen DCM was gone? A That's night. And Ambassador Taylon had 22 a A 23 a LrJhen 2t in touch with Kunt. not yet annived? Cornect. Ambassadon 24 have any convensatlons 25 were playing out with -- duning your time in Kyiv in June, did you Ambassadon Taylon about in the media? UNCLASSIFIED the nannatives that 47 UNCLASS]F]ED A I I had a convensation with Ambassadon Taylor befone he went 4 to Ukraine as he was considening taking the position. a And can you descnibe fon us that conversation? A As he's -- as I undenstand fnom media neports that 5 testified 5 U.S. policy on Uknaine might change and wanted to get the Depantment's 7 views on that. 2 3 he has befone, he had come to the Depantment with concerns that the 10 I sat down with him and shaned my veny fnank assessment that the White House was not likely to change its policy on Uknaine except in the event that the Pnesident viewed it -- the -- that Biden was going 11 to 72 he -- that funthening the narnative that Russia 8 9 be a credible rival fon him in the upcoming election, was and that fon the Republicans 16 for the Democnats would be in his intenest, and that might push him to change the policy on Uknaine. But I said that, othenwise, I saw no reason that oun policy would change. a And wene you awane at that -- well, when was that meeting t7 with 13 L4 15 18 19 and Uknaine was Ambassadon Taylon, do you necall? A That would have been in just 2L Yeah. 22 a And were you awane by 23 24 25 I headed out to Kyiv. a A 20 May, veny shontly befone So had announced befone May 29th? that point that Vice Pnesident his candidacy fon A I don't President? nemember when he announced President. UNCLASSIFIED his candidacy fon Biden 48 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 5 5 7 8 9 10 1_1 a But you knew that he was A 0f counse, y€S. a potential candidate? a A Yes. a So I just want to undenstand this. When you say the White House policy towards Ukraine, do you mean official U.S. policy supponting Uknaine in a bipantisan basis? A No, I mean the Pnesident's views. A You mean the Pnesident's views? A Yes. a And so what -- when you said the Pnesident's views wene not L4 to change, what wene the Pnesident's views that you undenstood at that time? A What I've anticulated so fan, that he was skeptical of 15 Uknaine as a connupt country, t2 L3 going but he had neversed the decision on 18 I didn't take him to be sont of anti-Uknaine, aside fnom, obviously, this very strongly held view that it is a connupt countny. But I knew that the rest of the intenagency remained united in its 19 suppont fon Uknaine. 16 L7 20 lavelins. a So And so, can you explain how the Biden candidacy 21 potentially -- 22 impact the Pnesident's views on Uknaine, as you explained 23 Ambassadon Taylor? 24 25 how you A Yeah. thought the Biden candidacy would potentially This was has watched Uknaine would just sont of my speculation, fon a while and as somebody UNCLASSIFIED it to as somebody who who had wonked in the 49 UNCLASSIFIED that, in an attempt 1 White House, but that my 2 to -- that it logical to 3 nannative about Russian suppont fon the Tnump administnation 4 2016 election seemed undenstanding was me you know, that in an attempt to on Russian intenfenence counten the in the in the 2016 election that -- that 7 to shift that nannative by shifting it to Ukraine as being in suppont of the Clintons. a And how would that affect the Pnesident's policy views 8 towands Uknaine? 5 6 it would be useful A 9 The way I thought about it was that painting sont of Uknaine 10 as being against Trump would help distnact fnom a nannative on balance 11 out a narrative that he had gotten help in the 2016 election fnom Russia. t2 Does 13 that answen a Undenstood. your question? I guess the question is, if he already had L4 negative views of Uknaine, how would the effect of Vice Pnesident 15 Biden's candidacy change his views, which 16 only way -- L7 MR. RATCLIFFE: Just to be I think you said that's the clean, ane you asking the witness to 27 to the Pnesident's fname of mind? MR. GOLDMAN: No. I'm asking the witness, based on hen expenience fon several yeans nelated to Uknaine, how she intenpneted the nannatives that wene in the media at the time nelated to 22 investigations. L8 19 20 speculate as 23 MR. RATCLIFFE: You used 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse 25 the wonds "the Pnesident's thinking." me. Excuse me. She's descnibing conversation she had with Ambassadon Taylon. UNCLASSIFIED I'I1 penmit the a 50 UNCLASSIFIED 7 question. MR. RATCLIFFE: Let 2 3 You may answen. withdnaw the record neflect the -- I'11 that. the question. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: You can answen 5 MS. CROFT: Sonry, can you nepeat the question? BY MR. GOLDMAN: 6 a 7 8 the only 9 nelated 11 You testified that you indicated to Ambassadon Taylon that way that the White House to this A a 10 L2 chainman policy would change was somehow Biden nannative. Yes, thank you. And I'm just asking how the Biden nannative would change what you've descnibed as the Pnesident's negative views towands Uknaine? 13 A That, I think, in orden to t4 as the enemy in both the 2016 elections and 15 to 16 Uknaine, 2O2O sont of cnedibly paint potentially Uknaine moving fonwand elections, that that would not be consistent with supponting 18 in tenms of pnoviding letha1 assistance on othen fonms of political suppont. Is that nesponsive? a It is nesponsive, but it goes back to, I think, the earlien 19 question 20 overall 2L The 22 support fon Uknaine. T7 23 I said, is that the policy suppont fon Uknaine policy A which change change would be fnom the to less suppont fon Uknaine. Is that true? that would flow from that would be to That is connect. That was as Ambassadon nevense the Taylon sont of 24 anticulated his concenn to me, and that was the question that 25 responding to when I gave that answen. UNCLASSIFIED I was 51 UNCLASSIFIED a A 1 2 And how did Ambassadon Taylon the best of To my anticulate the concenn to you? I this necollection, he said, job, but only -- 4 on Uknaine nemains the same, meaning suppont 5 changes, on 7 whethen we discussed a 9 10 going to change, then Do you know whethen he had I would quit. this already met with Secnetany Pompeo convensation? A I believe he was due to meet with Pompeo aften that L2 convensation. 13 a L4 Pompeo about? 15 A L6 same question. a t7 And And with you at L9 Tnump to Uknaine? believe that we did discuss 22 given the role I was THE CHAIRMAN: have he discuss a May 23nd meeting at the White House with Pnesident his nole on Uknaine policy vis-i-vis just to Secretary is he was going to ask Secnetany Pompeo the 2L 23 speak in that meeting with Ambassadon Taylon, did all nelated A I 20 did he tell you what he expected to My undenstanding 18 25 for Uknaine. But if that Giuliani on not. by the time that you had LL 24 do a Did he bning up Rudy Giuliani on the Biden nannative to you? A I naised the Biden nannative with him. I don't necall 6 8 if that's to willing to do this job, only as long our policy 3 on I'm want taking it with negand to how he saw Ambassadon Volken specifically, on. We're going to come back to that next nound. I a couple questions before oun time expines. Going back to the Javelins, it was UNCLASSIFIED the consensus of U.S. 52 I]NCLASSIFIED L policymakers within the NSC and State Depantment that the lavelins 2 should be provided. The lone objecton was OMB. Is that nighti MS. CROFT: The lone objecton 3 4 THE CHAIRMAN: So it was the 7 Uknaine 8 national secunity intenest? 7L L2 unanimous view in its THE CHAIRMAN: If we didn't that senve Russia's interest? MS. CROFT: In my opinion, L4 MS. CROFT: was Uknaine would help on your houn. I pnovide lavelins to Uknaine, would yes. time has expired. One houn to the minority. Sonny. I don't want to intennupt you once we stant wonder if I could use a bneak? 0f counse. Let's take a S-minute 16 THE CHAIRMAN: 17 IRecess. ] 18 THE CHAIRMAN: A11 19 One houn night. Let's come to bneak. onden. with the minonity. BY MR. CASTOR: 20 a Ms. Cnoft, I'm Steve Caston with the Republican staff. this is not the most comfontable so thank you fon youn willingness to sit thnough this and fon being hene today. I 22 Thanks 23 environment, 24 be helpful with your questions. 25 it MS. CROFT: Cornect. THE CHAIRMAN: Oun 2L OMB, defense against Russia and would, thenefone, be in U.S. 13 15 the lavelin the view of -- apant fnom that pnoviding lavelins to 6 10 papen PC on decision was OMB. 5 9 in the know I'm an investigative penson. I wonk on UNCLASSIFIED investigations of all 53 UNCLASSIFIED 1 types, not necessanily those nelating to the State Depantment, so if t2 I get any of these pnonunciations h,nong on if I don't have a sufficient undenstanding of how things neaIly wonk at the State Depantment, I hope -- I mean no disnespect, and I hope you'1I just help me understand. Befone becoming Ambassadon Volker's -- befone joining his team, you wene in Anabic language tnaining. Is that night? A That's night. a And you wene aiming to head to Baghdad? A That is conrect. a Okay. And how did you bneak that -- that assignment, you know, in tenms of going oven to help Ambassadon Volken? A So fon certain high-dangen posts, the Depantment will a1low 13 you l4 hene. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 to break assignment without any explanation, and that was the L7 a Okay. And was it youn initiative to break that on did -- othen than Mr. Andenson, I know you mentioned him. A Yes, I bnoke the assignment to take this position. 18 intenestinBly, just a few days Iaten, I got the notice that 19 was nemoved in 15 16 20 2L 22 23 24 25 the my case But position dnawdown. A Okay. And you had worked with Ambassadon Volken befone? A YeS. a And you had a good wonking nelationship with him? A Yes. a How long have you known the Ambassador? A I believe I would have met him in on anound JuIy of 20L7, UNCLASSIFIED 54 UNCLASSIFIED 1 when he became 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 nep. a Okay. That was the finst time you met him? A I believe so, yeah. a Okay. He's a penson of high integnity? A Yes. a A penson that in all aspects of his wonk would do things that 2 7 the special in the best intenest of the United States? A Yes. In my opinion, yes. a You were on detail to the National Secunity Council, if I have this connect, between July 2QL7 and July 2OL8? he believed wene 13 A That's night. a How do those postings wonk on detailees when you're a State Department official? How do you get selected on how do you bid fon L4 those oppontunities? 11 72 16 A In my case, I was appnoached by ny predecesson, who asked me to take on the role. And I was, of counse, also hesitant. But then, t7 I 15 agneed 18 a 19 A a A a 20 2T 22 to sit down Who was with Fiona HilI the and Richand Hooker fon an pnedecesson? And you intenviewed with Fiona Hill? Yes, and Richand Hooker. And how does the pnocess wonk inside of the State Depantment, 24 in tenms of getting penmission to be a detailee? A I think poorly. I can't illuminate, but it's 25 that. 23 intenview. UNCLASSIFIED a lot mone than 55 UNCLASSIFIED a A 1 2 What ane As I the mechanics undenstood 3 executive secnetany at the 4 Department, and then 5 duty. 6 7 of it? it, thene was a fonmal nequest fnom the NSC to the executive secretany at the State it is a black box until I'm told to nepont fon a Okay. And how long was that? Like, how long wene you in limbo befone you neported to the A NSC? L1 I don't nememben specifically how Iong, but because at the time, Tillenson had put a block on all NSC -- on on all State detailees to the NSC. a Okay. And was the block ultimately lifted? Is that what L2 allowed you 8 9 10 13 L4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 Longen than would be A I nonmal. to go oven there? believe it was lifted, if I necall connectly, a case-by-case basis. So specifically, my detail on sont of was authonized. A Okay. And did you know anybody when you went oven to the NSC, on just those you intenviewed with? A I knew sevenal membens of the pnevious team. a Okay. A fn Pound (ph), Russia. a And did you know Dn. Hill? A 0n1y when I interviewed fon the job. a Okay, that was the first time you met hen? A Yes. a And how did the neponting nelationship work? You reported to Dn. Hill, and then she neponted to -- who did she nepont to? UNCLASSIFIED 55 UNCLASSIFIED A I 1 2 3 s 9 10 11 t2 L3 t4 15 16 to Dr. HiIl, and then she neponted to the National Secunity Advison, sometimes thnough the Deputy National Security Advison. Q At the time, it was General McMasten? A I wonked unden both Genenal McMasten and under Ambassador 4 5 6 7 neponted Bo1ton. Q If of my dates ane night, Genenal McMasten was thene until Apnil 20L8? A That sounds night. I don't a Okay. Ambassadon Wene nememben the specific date. things diffenent under Genenal Bolton, in tenms of how the McMasten and NSC wonked? A 0h, yeah. a A And can you descnibe those diffenences? General McMasten had veny stnong views about pnocess and how cneate to establish a pnocess and a senies of stnategies and implementation plans. And, you know, L7 18 it sort of -- it tg 20 unden Ambassadon 2L 22 23 24 25 pnocess should wonk, and had wonked hand was neven been at wan was sont of like being at wan college, though I've college, but that's how I imagine it felt; Bolton, thene wene -- that pnocess slowed wheneas, down significantly. a Okay. And you were at the NSC fon a yean? A That's night. a And what wene the cincumstances of you leaving NSC? I took the position at the NSC, because we, as Foreign Service Officens, bid a year out, I had alneady -- on at some point A When UNCLASSIFIED 57 UNCLASSIFIED 1 veny eanly on 2 the 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 t2 a A a 15 19 20 2t 25 following And how was youn wonking nelationship with Dr. HiIl? Excellent. And did she include you in all the mattens nelated to Ukraine A Yes. As fan as I'm awane, yeah. a And what was youn portfolio? A Uknaine, Moldova, Belanus, the Caucasus and OSCE. a And who took youn job when you left the NSC? A My job was divided up into diffenent pontfolios. So nobody 18 24 Baghdad and youn pontfolio? 77 23 tenure, I had agreed to go to a Okay. So it was a 1-yean posting? A It was a l-yean posting. The NSC did actually ask me to stay on fon a second yean, and I agreed to do it. But then with the tnansition fnom McMasten to Bolton, I decided not to. a OkaY. A Not because of Bolton. a Okay. Why did you decide not to? A I specifically had wanted to wonk fon Genenal McMasten, but, a1so, because I had sont of decided that that tnansition was going to cneate a lot of chaos and work, and that I needed some downtime. t4 22 my assignment. 13 16 in took my fu1I portfolio. a went back A Did you tnansition out of youn job when you to State Depantment 0n the Caucasus with the incoming side, no, that position UNCLASSIFIED left the NSC and penson? was left vacant fon 58 UNCLASSIFlED 1 2 3 4 5 a period oftime. 0n the Uknaine, Moldova, Belarus side, I had a bnief ovenlap with Alex Vindman. Q Okay. And did you have -- how long was the ovenlap? A I think it was a week. Q okay. And was that a good transition peniod? Was that to speed on the issues? 6 7 enough time 8 9 Q Okay. And then when you wene back at the State Department working for Ambassadon Volker, how did that situation work? He was an unpaid official, conrect? 10 11 Lz 13 L4 15 16 t7 18 19 zo 2L 22 23 24 25 to get Lieutenant Colonel A lt's mone than NSC Vindman up dinectons usually get. A That's night. a Okay. And so, youn onganization, was it, you and him on did staff suppont? A 1,rle had an office management specialist, like a secnetany. you have additional a But you wene his only dlnect nepont? A Yes. a And I'm going to go thnough pant of the committee's inquiny, some just to of the events that see if have been you have any finsthand tnip, did you panticipate at all in the inaugunal which was in May of 2Ot9? I think that is slightly befone your posting began. A That is connect, that was befone my posting began. a Okay. Did your pnedecesson panticipate in that trip? infonmation on them. Wene you pant of the A I believe so, Yeah. a So Mn. Anderson, he traveled to UNCLASSIFIED Uknaine? 59 UNCLASSIFIED A That's my necollection, but I think he'd have to answer that. a Okay. And duning the -- so you said that in the month of 1 2 3 June, you tnaveled to Kyiv and worked out of the embassy thene? 8 A That's night. a Was that fon the fu1l month? A Yeah. I got in -- I flew out May 29th on 28th, on something like that, and I left, I believe, July 1. a Okay. And during youn time in Kyiv, was Ambassadon VoIken, 9 was he 4 5 6 7 A 10 11 Ambassadon that A So I 16 me t7 get to 18 time on the 2L 22 23 24 25 in Kyiv while I was thene on that one-month peniod? 15 20 Volker was not a Okay. And what was the punpose of youn going to Kyiv fon 74 19 same time? tnip. 72 13 tnaveling to Kyiv at the had neven -- while actually we'd had a know I the had worked on Uknaine issues senved at our Embassy quite a bit in D.C., in Kyiv. So this was fon lot of tunnoven at the Embassy, so pantly fon me to new team out in Kyiv and, in pant, just to have some gnound. a Okay. And that was effective fon you? A Yeah. a The - - Ambassadon Volken had pnetty good nelationships with the Uknainian officials. Is that fain to say? A Yes, I think that's fair to say. a hJhich Uknainian officials did he have nelationships with that he kept in negular contact? UNCLASSIFIED 60 UNCLASSIFIED A I 7 to undenstood him be in veny negulan contact with the now-foneign ministen, 2 Yenmak, as weLl as 3 believe he met with Pnesident Zelensky foun, 4 like that. 6 7 tnavel to Kyiv with A a A a 9 10 11 L2 13 Pnystaiko. I five, six times, something a Were you in any of those meetings? A I was not in any of those meetings. a Wene you with Ambassadon Volken duning the July -- did you 5 8 Vadym Andney and Yes, I was Ambassadon Volken on with him. But you wenen't in the meeting with Pnesident Do you nememben who was the President July in the meeting with Ambassadon Volken 26? 16 L7 Taylon, a nepnesentative fnom the 15 Zelensky? No. A On the U.S. side? a Yeah. A It was Ambassadon L4 the July 25th-26th tnip? Volken, Ambassadon Sondland, political section Ambassadon as note-taken, and 20 I believe an intenpneter fnom the U.S. Embassy was pnesent as well. a And did you get a neadout of that meeting? A I got a very bnief readout fnom Ambassadon Taylon on the car 2t nide away from the meeting. 18 19 a And what do you nememben fnom that neadout? A I nememben that his necount so he necounted to me what 22 23 24 Zelensky said 25 and in that meeting about the that overall it phone call with the Pnesident, was a veny upbeat neadout, and UNCLASSIFIED the pant that I was 61 UNCLASSIFIED the possibility of L focused on getting out 2 scheduling a face-to-face meeting between the Pnesident and Pnesident 3 Zelensky. of that And so we discussed 4 neadout was about the potential for an encounter at Wansaw, 7 at the same time. We discussed -- but we discussed the need sepanately fon an invite to an Oval. And I necall Ambassadon Taylon being fairly optimistic about 8 oun 5 6 because they were both going ability to get that Okay. Thene's a 9 to be thene meeting scheduled. been some discussion of whethen duning that 10 meeting, Pnesident Tnump's demands wene, you know, discussed on whether 11 the, you know, Uknainians L2 might have been. Dld you hean anything of that sont? needed help navigating what those demands A I believe I necall 13 hearing Ambassadon Taylon mentioning that L4 the Pnesident naised investigations thene, but I don't have a veny 15 specific a 16 L7 to 18 investigations him it of anything that was said with that negand. So the Ambassador told you that Pnesident Zelensky nelated memory was an upbeat meeting, but thene was a mention of ? 19 A No. I believe that 20 Pnesident did naise investigations 2t that pant of the 22 get an 0va1 meeting. 23 24 25 a neadout Ambassadon Taylor said that the in that meeting, but my memony of isn't as stnong as the pant about tnying to Okay. Did you have an undenstanding of what the at that point? A I undenstood it to be investigations into intenfenence in investigations wene UNCLASSfFIED 62 t]NCLASSIFIED 7 2 3 4 the 2016 election. a Okay. But not nelated to the company called Bunisma? A I do not specifically necalI whethen Bunisma came up on not in the neadout that I got. 7 a Is Bunisma a company you'ne familian with in youn expenience as a Uknainian -- an expent with Uknaine? A No, not especially. I didn't deal a whole Iot with enengy 8 issues, except at a veny sont of high-policy Ieve1. 5 6 9 10 L\ 12 13 L4 15 16 17 18 19 20 a You wene on the Ukraine desk fon a peniod of time, you mentioned? A a A a Yes, 2 yeans. What was that time August 2OL5 And to Peniod? Jut.y 2@L7. during youn time on the Uknaine desk, did you ever A I had heand that Hunten Biden was on boand of a Okay. Which was Burisma? A Yes. a Okay. But you hadn't heand anything about -- I oliganch named Zlochevsky who was a fonmen ecology 22 nan Bunisma. Did you know that? 25 the an enengy company. was an 24 come acnoss any infonmation about Bunisma? 27 23 I think guess thene minister that A Yeah, I don't know anything about Zlochevsky. a Okay. So you only knew about the Hunten Biden? A I only knew about that, yeah. UNCLASSIFIED 63 UNCLASSfFIED I a A 2 And what can you tel] Nothing mone than what 3 I 4 an enengy company. But my 5 on the economic side 6 issues, and so -- was awane us about that? I've that the Vice Pnesident's alneady said, that at the time, son was senving on pontfolio didn't deal at that time. I the board of in -- on the enengy was veny focused on the defense 15 a Okay. So that was just something you leanned in passing? A Yes, exactly. a Okay. And were thene any othen -- how did you leann it? It was in cable tnaffic, on did a colleague mention it to you? A I think it just came up, yeah, in convensation somebody was sont of annoyed that that was the case, but I can't nememben specifically who said it, on unden what cincumstance. a And do you rememben what they may have been annoyed about? A You know, I think just sort of a genenal concenn about the L6 appeanance 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 L4 L7 18 19 of the Vice Pnesident's son doing business in Uknaine. a At the time, Vice Pnesident Biden, did he have an intenest in Uknaine? A Yes. I mean in a policy sense. 23 a 0h, sune. What can you te1I us about that? A At the time, the Vice Pnesident was veny engaged on Ukraine policy. He spoke sevenal times with Pnesident Ponoshenko, and spoke to -- if I necall connectly, spoke to othen wonld }eadens in support 24 of Uknaine 20 2L 22 25 a as well. You mentioned eanlien in the finst houn some of the diffenent UNCLASSIFIED 64 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 of assistance the United States pnovides to Uknaine. There's the FMF and the USAI. Ane those the two pnimany vehicles to pnovide secunity assistance and economic assistance to Uknaine? fonms 7 A a A a 8 Depantment on 4 5 6 L7 18 19 20 27 Depantment? the FMF component of this? of secunity assistance. money? how wene the loan guanantees to Uknaine handled? A I don't know the mechanics of how our loan guarantees wonked. Like I said, that was sont of handled by the economic side of the Uknaine desk at the time, so I wasn't nesponsible fon that. a Okay. But it was handled by State Depantment officials? A Thene was a policy nole in it, but exactly, like I said, how the mechanics wonk about these loan guanantees I don't know. a Do you know how the loan guarantees figured into the intenagency pnocess? A 24 25 is the State cornect. A No. Those wene sepanate. a Okay. And how wene those -- 22 23 openated by DOD, the othen did you have any nole in youn dealings at the State the FMF pot of L4 16 And is a Okay. And did the loan guanantee pnocess also facton into 13 15 is That oun fu11 pictune 77 t2 And one A Yes. My pontfolio included both FMF and also the sort of 9 10 Since - - y€s, since 201-5, those ane the two primany vehicles. I I'm not exactly sune how to know what you'ne getting at, answen that question, but I think so I'm going UNCLASSIFIED to tny to go there. And 65 UNCLASSIFIED L that is that, in general, oun loan guanantees, Iike all othen 2 of 3 nefonm benchmarks. And, as 4 benchmanks economic assistance, were conditioned on Uknaine meeting centain 6 7 8 that go thnough the guanantees went thnough 12 befone, 17 I wasn't participating in it in 2Qt6 on befone A a A to initiative in 2017? Let me be more -- tny to be mone specific with the question. That was a new the question of whethen to pnovide Uknaine Javelins, but no positive decision a Okay. And can you teI} pnocess to the Uknaine? No. 19 22 contemponaneously. pnovide lavelins The intenagency considened 21 about the loan the interagency pnocess. But, like I said 18 20 PCC pnocess? a Okay. Are you familian, was thene an intenagency decision 13 16 in the lead. A I believe, yeah, that all of the questions 11 15 befone, those nefonm are usually sont of set with the IMF guanantee, would 10 L4 I testified Is that responsive to you? a Yes, it is? A Youn question? Okay. a If there was going to be a decision to withdnaw a loan 5 9 fonms was made until us what you 2077. nememben about that ? A is that thene was a senies of intenagency on whethen we should lift the ban against pnoviding Uknaine My recollection 23 meetings 24 defensive weapons, and specifically, 25 nequest fon how we lavelin antitank missile should nespond to Uknaine's systems. UNCLASSIFTED 66 UNCLASSIFIED L 2 3 -- I necall that going up to, I believe, at least, the PC level under the pnevious administnation, I don't necall if that decision was blocked at the NSA on at the Pnesidential level, but My unden a A 4 5 NSC on NSA, NSA? NSA. 7 a Okay. I thought you said NSA. A Okay. 8 a 6 Okay? A Yeah. a You'ne not sune whene it was blocked? A I know that the agencies broadly supponted the pnovlsion of 9 10 7t t2 lavelins unden the previous administnation 13 House 14 15 as we1l, but that the White did not authorize it. a A And do you know what was My understanding the basis fon that nonauthonization? at the time that it was at least, in 16 oven concenns about how Russia would nespond, and whethen t7 pnovocative. But the intenagency, what was united before 18 a t9 White House? 20 27 22 23 24 25 A a A it pant, would be it got to the The policy -- the policy agencies wene united in thein view. And that changed in No, the 2Ot7? policy agencies views on the provision have always been consistent on thein of lavelins. a okay. So what changed between 201-6 or eanlien, and then the new administnation? UNCLASSIFIED 67 UNCLASSIFIED A 1 2 diffenent decision than the pnevious Pnesident had. a 3 4 The Pnesident made a And do you nememben when mentioned it this 5 A 6 a Okay. 7 monning, 8 it? monning, but Late Decenber if I there was -- it So that occunned? I think just so I'm tnacking it you may have pnopenly. 2@17. understood what you wene testifying was approved, to this but then thene was a hold on A No. So the specific pnocess was thene was a sub PCC, a PCC, 9 10 a DC, and a papen 11 came back PC. When that papen PC went out, a}l of the agencies with thein reactions. The only objecton was OMB at the PC 15 level. Does that make sense? a Yes, it does. A Okay. And that was -- so that was to get all pnincipals on the same page about what to necommend to the Pnesident. So that 16 pneceded t2 13 t4 the Pnesident's decision. a Okay. And then OMB ultimately lifted thein concenn? A Connect. They lifted thein block, yeah. a They lifted thein bIock, and that was when? A It like I said befone, I believe it would have been in L7 18 19 20 2L like 22 And 23 have no way 24 25 Novemben on I am eanly Decemben, but not allowed to keep of I don't necall the specific my notes fnom dates. that peniod of time, so I nefneshing my memony. a 0kay, fain enough. Do you nememben roughly how long it was? A Like I said before, I believe it was -- you mean how long UNCLASSIFIED 68 UNCLASSIFIED t the OMB block a A How 2 3 was? long the hold was, yes. Yeah, I believe it was noughly a couple weeks, but, again, 7 I can't say for sure without nefneshing my memony with my notes, and I don't have access to those. a Okay. Was thene anything unusual you nememben about that time peniod, on was it just pant of the ondinany buneaucnatic speed 8 bumps 4 5 6 A No. 9 10 was OMB lifted thein money was released? objection at the a leve1, and There was discussion this monning in the finst hour that the delay of the lavelins senved Russia's intenest? A I Ane you nefenning -- sonny -- a decision to not pnovide avelins a Yes. A -- would senve Russia's interest. a Yes, night. So I'm just tnying to undenstand the diffenence 19 20 27 22 between the Obama and the new administnation on 23 if 24 did that, too, serve Russia's interest? 25 PC the decision went to the Pnesident. t7 18 lifted thein hold and the money OMB the authonization fon the A UItimately, 15 16 decision to object, and to do so on a policy basis highly unusual. was released, on 13 t4 OMB's a Okay. But, ultimately, 11 t2 that often occun? duning the Obama that position. I mean, ena, thene was a reluctance to pnovide the Javelins, A I believe so. UNCLASSIFIED 59 UNCLASSIFIED that pant of the evaluation of changing the position? Can I ask you to refname that question? Was pnoviding lethal defensive assistance to the Uknaine, 3 a A a 4 was pant 5 Russian aggnession? 1 2 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 Was of the neason that was advocated for was it would help pnevent A Sonny, that pnoviding -a Pnoviding the Uknaine the money fon the Javelins -A Yeah. helped Uknaine defend themselves, night? a A I'm sonny, thene was a couple double negatives in thene. I just want to make sune that I answen it accunately. a A So the Javelins help Uknaine defend themselves, night? The Javelins help Uknaine defend themselves. t4 pnovide lavelins we believe 15 that -- A decision to is a counten to Russia's intenests. Is a I I T I T 25 UNCLASSfFIED 70 T]NCLASSIF]ED I I 3 a 4 Okay. Once you netunned to the United States, I was 5 nelating to -- you know, involving 7 with the 9 L0 a A 12 Volken's involvement Giuliani piece of this? And when was that? That would have been the week of July 8. I don't nememben the specific date. a 14 15 Rudy Ambassador A I don't know what you mean by like significant events, but that is, as I've testified to, the finst time that I leanned that Ambassadon VoIken was in touch. 1"L L3 that the beginning of Ju1y, do you nememben any significant events 5 8 guess Did you have any discussions with Ambassadon Volken about the challenges pnesented by the Giuliani involvement? A 76 We had one discussion in which I thanked him fon keeping me L7 out of that mess, and then, you know, I think anothen, you know, a couple 18 times he mentioned sont of a need to get this Giuliani line of effont, 19 sont 20 of, off the table, so we can get on with the business of oun actual policy. Those wenen't his exact wonds, but that would have been the 21, spinit of -- 22 23 24 25 a Did he even anticulate to you his stnategy with that? A Not veny specifically. Like I said, I had thanked him for keeping me out of that mess. a Did he communicate to you that he believed Mn. Giuliani UNCLASSIFIED was 71 UNCLASS]FIED L amplifying a negative nannative and fueling the Pnesident's mistnust 3 of Uknainel A Yes. You know, my intenpnetation of his intention 4 he hoped 5 new 6 one, that they were senious about combating connuption, and that they 7 menited us deal-ing with 8 interest to deal with the new administnation 9 to 2 and that the Pnesident that the -- the new administnation in Uknaine was diffenent fnom the old in a senious fashion and that it and support was in oun thein efforts combat cornuption. a 10 11 that he could convince Giuliani was that Did Volken even walk you through some of the investigations at this time, on what the nequests wene discussed T2 A No, he neven walked me through any 13 a Did you even hean of those convensations. Ambassadon Volken talk about, you know, t4 investigating the Bidens as something that, you know, 15 the U.S. Govennment wene interested in? some pants of 18 I think, with Ambassadon Taylon and Ambassador Volken, but I don't nememben the exact date. I nememben that we wene in Kyiv at the time. But concenned about the diffenence L9 between 20 intenfenence in the 20L6 election, and then specifically, into specific 2L cases 22 between those two things. 16 77 23 24 25 A I were? had one bnief exchange, a nequest fon, broadly speaking, investlgation into of conruption, and oun sont of shaned discomfont a Okay. Wene they intenconnected at the line on wene they two sepanate buc ket s ? A I don't know the answen to that question. Like I said in UNCLASSIFIED 72 UNCLASSIFIED opening statement, L my 2 and 3 Giuliani. 6 7 8 sont of outside of that line of effont, I sont of was not bniefed on Ambassador Volken's convensations a Okay. 4 5 my wonk was with Did you know whethen Ambassador Volken was advocating for investigations nelated to the Bidens? A I don't know what he may on may not have said to Giuliani, on -- and, like I said, I wasn't pnesent in his convensations one-on-one with Zelensky, so I don't know the answer to that question. a Did he even nelate to you what his views on that wene? A I think he shaned oun collective discomfort with the idea 9 10 t2 that we would be nequesting specific investigations on a specific individual, but, like I said, we didn't talk a lot about that. Most 13 of t4 meeting set up and tnying 15 of othen things to talk to 11 16 my conversations with him wene centered anound tnying to get an Oval a Okay. to advance our negotiations. him about othen than So I had a lot this. Did he even teI1 you that he told Giuliani that t7 thene's no basis to investigate the Vice Pnesident, the fonmen Vice 18 Pnesident 19 20 ? A Like I said, he neven talked to me about what his convensations with Giuliani wene about. UNCLASSIFIED 73 UNCLASSIFIED 1 ItL:26 a. m. l BY MR. CASTOR: 2 4 VoIker How fnequently did you intenact with daiIy, I would say. Okay. Was it mostly by email or is it telephone as well? Almost a A Email and tnJhatsApp. Mostly 6 7 9 something a 11 llke that. Okay. Duning youn time with Ambassadon Volken, did you ever t2 hear him mention the wond the Bidens 13 investigation A 0h, gosh. I don't 15 a 20 2t have any in any of the meetings that specific memony A I if any would have of that to go back thnough my notes to tny to necaIl even came up. a Okay. But as you sit hene today you don't A Thene's nothing that stands out in my memony night this minute, no. 23 24 a 25 Do. you attended with him you don't a Okay. How about with the company Bunisma? A Same answen. 22 of that, necaIl the Bidens coming up -- with Uknainians? L7 19 So in connection with an ? L4 18 WhatsApp. a Okay. Just texting on WhatsApp? A Yeah. 0n in penson if we wene tnaveling togethen on 8 16 Ambassadon ? A 5 10 Okay. a 3 Okay. So youn necollection of the discussion of investigations, to the extent it got specific, it nelated mostly to UNCLASSTFIED 74 UNCLASSIFIED t 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 the origins of the 20L6 intenference allegations? A Aside from the one convensation I just told you about. a With Ambassadon Taylor? A Yeah. Yeah. a And how fnequently did you witness convensations that to the 2OL6 component? Was this a small numben on was this a topic of some negulan discounse? A This was not a topic of anything that I engaged on in any sort of negulan fashion. Like I said, this was outside of my duties, nelated which wene focused on the negotiations. t2 a Okay. Ane you familian with the July 10th meeting with Ambassadon Bolton that was attended by Andrey Yenmak, I think, and 13 Danylyuk 11 ? 19 A a A a official A 20 position t4 15 L6 17 18 2L 22 23 24 25 a A a A of it. Okay. But you didn't attend that I'm awane meeting? I did not attend that meeting. Did you help Ambassadon Volken on any other State Depantment pnepane fon that meeting? No. My pnedecesson, Chris Andenson, was still in the at the time. That was the week that we wene ovenlapping. Oh, okay. Do you know if he went to the meeting? I don't believe he did, no. Okay. Did you get a readout fnom that meeting? I did, but nothing veny specific, just sont of a genenal assessment of Danylyuk's penfonmance and whethen he was successful UNCLASSIFIED in 75 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 5 convincing Bolton that the Zelensky administnation was senious about that's what related to my pontfolio. I know where you'ne going, so that's why I answered the question that way. a So what did you -- what was that neadout? Was it successful neforms, because on that? A I T had met Danylyuk sevenal times befone So 7 8 that's what I was mostly concenned with 9 a Okay. 10 A And whethen we would 11 a And what was 12 Do you know? holding get an 0va1, like I said. up the Oval Office meeting at that point. 15 A I don't know specifically. My undenstanding at the time was that it was, again, that we had not been successful at convincing the Pnesident that this new administnation in Uknaine was diffenent fnom t6 the old one, would be senious about combating connuption, and so fonth. t7 A11 13 74 18 19 20 the reasons I've given At any point in time did you a Sondland A befone. come into contact with Ambassadon ? Yes. 24 a And when was that? A It would have been the finst time that we wene all in Kyiv together at the same time, which I believe was befone July 25-26, that visit. I thinkthat I had -- which was the othen visit? Maybe it was 25 July 25 and 26, I think that might have 2L 22 23 UNCLASSIFIED been the time I met him. 76 UNCLASSIFTED 2 And what was youn undenstanding a L Uknaine A 3 the of his nole nelated to ? So that he had an interest in Uknaine ability to talk dinectly to the Pnesident, policy, and that and had 5 Volken and Taylon saw merit, nathen than keeping him sont 6 of the tent, instead bringing 7 positive notions about Uknaine, to help sont of 8 the Pnesident on his views about Uknaine and connuption. in, move the needle with 10 11 a Okay. of outside all of his enengy and along with a Did he pnesent any pnoblems fon Ambassadon Taylon A I couldn't speak to that. 9 he Ambassadons 4 him that You know, when you mentioned bninging him on Volken? in the tent, 15 it seems like not bninging him into the tent might cneate pnoblems. Is that what you wene alluding to? A I think -- I don't -- I couldn't nealIy speculate about that. I mean, as has been pneviously reported, it is unusual fon the U.S. 16 Ambassadon T7 to a specific countny that isn't in the EU. 18 constennation about what that was about. But 19 Volken and Ambassador Taylon saw an oppontunity thene. L2 13 74 20 2L a to the Okay. EU to be playing an How many active noLe on And policy with I think regand thene was some I think that Ambassadon diffenent times were you with Ambassadon Sondland, in-penson interactions? 24 A So I spent pant of the 25-26, the pant where he was with Kunt on that tnip, I was with that whole delegation. And then I saw him up at the U.N. Genenal Assembly on the mangins of the Pnesident's 25 meeting with Zelensky. 22 23 UNCLASSTFIED 77 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 L2 13 L4 15 16 t7 18 19 a In September? A In Septemben. A So it was mostly befone September, befone the issue neganding the 7/25 caIl became a big deaI. The only time you were with Sondland in penson was on the 25 and 26 of JuIy, that tnip? A I'm trying to nememben all of my -a To the best of youn recollection. A I'm tnying to nememben all of my trips to Kyiv and when I might have met with Ambassadon Sondland. But that's what I'm recalling night now. a Do you even anything nelating A Not recal1 him mentioning Bidens, Bunisma, 2OL6' or' to investigations in that I necaII, no. any of youn times with him? Oun meetings would have been about Uknaine and nefonms and 0va1 meeting. a Okay. So you neven heand him mention the wond Bidens? A Not that I neca1I, but -a Okay. A That's a pretty specific question. a Okay. Duning any of the meetings that you panticipated with did you hean him make any statements that 20 Ambassadon Sondland, 2t concenned 22 nepnesenting communications about, you know, he had with the President, 23 any -- 24 25 you? That maybe he was outside of his lane on he was A I don't think in any of the meetings that I was in I heand anything like that. I heand langely enthusiastic suppont for Ukraine. UNCLASSIF]ED 78 UNCLASSIF]ED 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 I think he was sont of objectively outside of his 1ane. So that's sont of a difficult question to answen. a Did he even nepnesent to you in youn pnesence that he was in contact with the Pnesident? A Yes. a Okay. And what can you te11 us about that? A Only that he would make passing reference to: I'm going to But, you know, 11 call the Pnesident aften this or I've spoken with the Pnesident on something like that. But this was always, like I said, at least in my pnesence about the idea of getting this 0va1 meeting set up. a Okay. So did it seem like he was in constant contact with L2 the 8 9 10 13 L4 Pnesident? A I wouldn't know. I just heard passing references. a Okay. Do you think Ambassadon Volken, to the best of youn ability to have with the President or was it a 1itt1e bit of an issue? 15 knowledge, you know, appneciated Ambassador Sondland's L6 communications L7 18 19 A I never pensonally witnessed any, you know, conflict between I don't know what they spoke about when I wasn't pnesent. a 0kay. You mentioned that youn finst week on the job you had those two, but 20 a discussion with Ambassadon Volken about keeping you out of the 2L Giuliani 22 23 24 25 ? A I don't rememben if that was that week on if it was on diffenent occasion. a A Rudy Okay. And it wasn't neaIly a conversation, that was UNCLASSIFIED just me a 79 UNCLASSIFIED 1 declaning, keep 2 I said I'm neally 3 said, out of that mess, and he said okay. WeII, sont of. glad you're keeping me out of that mess. And he just yup. te1l by his neaction that 5o you could a 4 me he thought it was a 7 little bit of a complex situation? A I think that's fain to say, yes. a Okay. I mean, he wasn't enthusiastic about Rudy Giuliani's 8 involvement, was 5 6 he? 9 A Not that I 10 a Was Ambassadon Sondland 11 panticipation undenstood, no. enthusiastic about A I couldn't tel1 you. I don't 13 a A 15 16 t7 know. Was anyone? Not that I even heand. at the State Depantment, to enthusiastic by about Mn. Giuliani's nol-e? A I - hor not that I ever heard. 18 Giuliani's ? t2 L4 Rudy a So nobody a Befone the 7 youn knowledge, was -- July L8th, 7/tBhold on the Uknaine secunity 19 assistance, 20 investigation of the committees that 21 wene wene thene any othen meetings we nelated to the mattens unden haven't talked about that you a finsthand panticipant in? And 22 that would be any meeting whene Rudy Giuliani 23 Ambassadon Sondland was 24 House 25 that visit. we came up or involved on, you know, effonts to get the White Ane thene any othen meetings on convensations you had haven't discussed pnion to July 18th that is wonth talking UNCLASSIFIED 80 UNCLASSIFIED 1 about ? 3 I found out that Ambassadon Volken was speaking to Rudy Giuliani befone that, at some point, I don't 4 nememben 2 A I mean, as I neponted, exactly what those circumstances wene. 6 It's difficult to answen that question fully because neanly eveny meeting that we had, in some way or anothen, was aimed at tnying to 7 get a face-to-face meeting 5 8 So I would say between Zelensky and Tnump. just about every meeting I had in some way involved L4 that, but I couldn't night now give you sont of a detailed accounting of all of my meetings. But my necords have been made available punsuant to nequests. a Okay. And during that time peniod what wene the State Depantment officials, like yourself, doing to suppont that effont? A So I'm tnying to think about what I was doing duning those 15 specific dates. 9 10 11 12 13 16 t7 a Like what was the State Depantment's nole in advocating fon the meeting on tnying to get the meeting to occur? 23 -- the facilitation of the July 10 meeting, I think, was aimed at having a convensation about the viability of a meeting like that. Something like that would be sont of noutine in all of oun business anyway. So you would -- you'd be talking to -- I would be talking to a countenpart in Kyiv on a would be talking to a countenpant at DOD, 24 on whateven 25 pnogness? 18 19 20 21 22 A I mean, we wene, you know it is, about, hey, have you heard? Have we made any Do we have a date? I might have talked to the NSC. I don't UNCLASSIFIED 81 UNCLASSIFIED 1 know. I But, 2 mean, that would have been sont of pant of my daily sont just coondinating with my, you know, countenpants within 3 of 4 State Depantment and acnoss the intenagency about, you know, sont of 5 what the wonk latest is. In tenms of that specific line of effont, that 6 7 of 8 do mone about 9 staffed 10 Ambassadon Vo1ker's and what than I I can. I was just knew about who was mone senion and can making sune that he was fully talking to who and when and, you a Okay. But nothing you wene doing -A What was happening in eastenn Uknaine, the violence, t2 et cetena. a 1.4 15 it lead because he's obviously was much mone sont know. LI 13 the But nothing you wene doing in that time peniod nelated to encounaging investigations or talking about t7 A No. No. I had no involvement in anything nelated to -- the one exception is, I did send one email to Bruce Swantz at DOJ nelaying 18 Ambassadon 16 19 20 27 a A a A Volken's nequest fon a meeting with the Attonney Genenal. Okay. And when asked what the topic was, I said 2016 elections. Okay. 24 in that ended. I just nelayed that, and then I undenstood those two to be in contact. a Do you know if Ambassadon Volken had tnied to call Bnuce 25 Swantz 22 23 But that's where my involvement ? UNCLASSIFIED 82 UNCLASS]FIED 2 A I believe he did. a And do you know if 3 A I don't L 4 5 6 7 a 0kay. A Yes. 9 11 him. a Did he email you back? A Yes. And then I put him in touch with 13 L4 Kunt and then I a You put him in touch with A With Ambassadon Volken. L7 who? a And did they having a meeting? A I don't know. 18 19 a So you don't know -A I don't think so. I don't think. But not that I'm 20 2L awane of. 24 a A if they had any discussions, if they linked Who ane they? Bnuce Swantz -- 25 a Bruce Swartz and Ambassadon VoIken. 23 was out of the -- 16 22 So you emailed Bruce Swantz? a Did you call Bnuce Swantz? A No, I don't think so. I think I just -- I think I just emailed 10 15 know. a And he instnucted you to email Bnuce Swantz to see about the viability of Ambassadon Volken meeting with the Attonney Genenal? A He just sont of gave me a vague dinection to get him a meeting with the Attonney Genenal, so that was my job. 8 L2 Bnuce Swantz neplied? Do you know UNCLASSIFIED up? 83 UNCLASSIFIED A I think they pnobably did, but I'm not entinely certain. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 it because I'm refenning to evenybody by thein finst name? I can change that. Okay. I know it gets a little confusing. a So you emailed Bnuce Swantz, you connected him to Volken, and that the end of it? was A Yes. That was the end of my involvement in it. a Okay. And then what can you teII us about the JuIy 18th PCC meeting ? A It was a sub-PCC. a A sub-PCC, I'm sonny. A And it was inexplicably about some money that had been sont of cybensecunity line of effont, t2 allocated to 13 like $1.1 mi}lion, L4 intenagency was not happy with DOE's implementation. 15 16 \7 18 19 20 27 22 23 24 25 Is DOE fon some on something some like that, but whene the collective AIl to say, sort of veny noutine low-level business. But then Geonge Kent pointedly asked: I heand that thene was a hold on secunity assistance. And that of counse -- and that was sont of towands the end of the meeting, but of course that blew up the meeting. a A Okay. And the substance of it is what I reponted in my opening statement. a Okay. Did you staff -A I don't a tell us in youn opening who know. had chimed in? UNCLASSIFIED -- who on the OMB 84 UNCLASSIFIED A I didn't 1 a Okay. And wene you thene in penson on wene on a SVTC? A I was panticipating via SVTC. a And then what was the next fact or event you can nememben 2 3 4 5 know. aften the 7/t8 meeting when the hold A It 6 was most necent the 18th. I trip, my 8 been 9 hold had been lifted. a 10 11 Septemben 72 So you landing in Kyiv the most -- which was fon the YES Confenence, so 7 like nememben was placed? it on would have or 13, wheneven I landed, and seeing that the didn't have any -- did you sit on any of the othen at the PCC level on -A I did not sit in on the PCC on the DC. meetings L2 a Do you nememben when those occunned and what the dates wene? A I don't nememben. a Did you get readouts of what was occunning? 13 74 15 18 A I would have gotten the SOC along with evenybody e1se, the statement of conclusions. a And who attended in youn -- did Ambassadon Volken attend 19 those 16 L7 20 27 A I don't think he did, but I don't specifically nemember. I'm pnetty sune he didn't, but I'm not positive. 22 23 Kent 24 25 ? it a Okay. A So Who was nepnesenting the State Depantment, Geonge ? typicatly at a -- would be, but and I don't nemember specifically at a sub-PCC it would nonmally UNCLASSIFIED be the DAS, so who in this 85 UNCLASSIFIED 4 Kent. At a PCC, it would nonmally be the assistant secretany, which would be Phil Reeken, but I don't necal} who nepnesented. Like I said, I wasn't thene. And at a DC it would nonmally be the deputy, so -- oun deputy secnetany of state. But I 5 don't think that 6 nememben L 2 3 case Geonge a 7 8 IeveIs at each meeting, but I don't specifically. Duning this time peniod was thene a hope that the aid would get neleased on -- A Yes. a Okay. 9 10 LL we met those going did you even have a belief that this aid was not to get neleased? A I t2 So believed that would because of both bipartisan the questionable sort of legality of 13 in L4 an infonmal hold. Congness and it OMB suppont putting on 16 if the hold wasn't ultimately neleased, thene would have to be an effort, a rescission effont, a nepnognamming, on some sont L7 of 15 18 a And complicated A That was a discussion among the people that, you know, sont 19 of the legislative folks togethen with the 1egal folks 20 and thene was a 21 what the mechanics 22 23 24 25 and so forth, lot -- thene wene a lot of convensations about exactly of that might look like. a Okay. And wene you involved in any of those discussions or wene you on the penipheny? A I was on the peripheny of those convensations. a Okay. But you had a genuine belief that this would get UNCLASSTFIED 86 UNCLASSIFIED L wonked A 2 3 out and the the money would be neleased? Yeah, my hope was simply that it wouldn't become public in meantime and undenmine oun Uknaine policy. L2 a Okay. Do you nemember when it did become public? A My recollection is that it sont of became public gnadually. So individual -- I think it was sont of individualMembens of Congress on staff knew about it at various points. And then I reca1l that Kunt and I went and did a briefing at SFRC -- and I don't necall the date of that, but it would be in my notes, which I don't have -- in which we were asked about that. So we knew it was sont of inevitable that it was going to get out. a And do you rememben when it did get out? Thene was I think t3 an August t4 22 A I don't specifically nemember. a There was an August 29th Politico anticle talking about it. Do you nememben if it had been public before then? A I think it was sont of known among the cincles that do Uknaine security assistance, sont of gnadually, as I said. Fnom July 18 on it was sont of inevitable that it was eventually going to come out. a I should connect myself, the anticle was on August 28th. lust fon accunacy purposes, I'lI add that. And do you know if any Uknainians knew about this on was this 23 pnimanily U.S. officials? 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 71. 15 16 L7 18 19 20 2L 24 25 A quietly Two and individuals fnom in confidence to ask the Uknainian me Embassy appnoached me about an OMB hold on Uknaine secunity UNCLASSIFIED 87 UNCLASSIFIED L assistance. a And when was that? A I don't have those dates. a But it was befone the August 28th time peniod, do you think? A I believe it was, yes. a Okay. And these ane and what did you -- what do you 2 3 4 5 6 7 rememben A I 8 T telling in these folks? nememben pnocess would telling them that I get nesolved. And I was knew that they 10 11 had no intenest in this infonmation getting out into the public. a Okay. And did they call you togethen on was it L2 13 confident that any issues calls two sepanate ? A Two a So separate. 23 24 25 if you can't it was two sepanate nememben calls close in time? this. UNCLASSlFIED And I apologize 88 UNCLASSIF]ED A Yeah, I don't a I'm just trying to piece some of this togethen. A Yeah, I don't nememben specifically. f would say maybe 1 2 3 4 like that. a And you said that you went to brief the Senate Foreign about a weekish apant on something 5 6 Relations Committee with Ambassadon Volken? 11 A Yes. a When was that? A I don't rememben the date. But I could -- I have it in my notes and I could nepont it to the committee laten. a Okay. Did you bnief any othen congnessional committees 12 duning 7 8 9 10 that time peniod? A a A 13 t4 No. the bniefing with And what do you nememben fnom 16 if I necall connectly, that this pnepanation fon a codel to Kyiv, that it was convened by L7 and 18 Uknaine and wene intenested 19 to get bniefed. 15 2L it 22 up? 23 this was, that, unsunpnisingly, the staffens a 20 That Was it a bniefing was mostly was in well-informed about in what was happening and were just looking on the secunity assistance issue on a bniefing about the codel A It wene SFRC? whene was the secunity assistance had come a bniefing about the new Zelensky 24 administration, Kunt's impnessions of them, his tnavel to Uknaine, 25 what he was sort and of taking away fnom his interactions with the new UNCLASSIFIED 89 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Pnesident. a 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 LL L2 And just find the date. A a made a A a 0h. so you'ne sure, I I'm not going to give you homewonk hene, so -- in case you I saw you make I'm happy I think to, a note. So I'm not asking fon that. but we covened it. left in oun nound, and I want to make sure that oun Membens have an oppontunity to -- okay. It's good staff wonk to ask the Membens if they want to ask questions, if I do say so myself. It's not a finst time I've asked, though. MR. CASTOR: We have about 5 minutes 13 MR. GOLDMAN: No. L4 MR. MEADOWS: It's the first time I'm not intenjecting. BY MR. CASTOR: 15 a I think we had discussed genenally that Ambassadon 16 Giuliani was concenned Mn. 18 the cunnent state of affains in the A Yeah. I 19 fain Uknaine? without speaking fon Kunt, I think that's a assessment, yeah. a 21 mean, was Volker amplifying a negative nannative about t7 20 wasn't asking you to go back and Do you think that Ambassadon Volker believed that Mn. 23 Iike, finsthand investigative expenience about this or do you think he was just nepeating issues that had been neponted 24 on? 22 25 Giuliani had any, A I don't know the answen to that question. UNCLASSIFIED We didn't talk 90 UNCLASSIFIED 7 it, so I couldn't tell about a 2 And you what his views wene. did you even discenn whether this to 4 the United States? 5 passion was as Mn. On did you have any idea about what Mr. Giuliani's 5 it related to Uknaine? A No. I would -- f,o, I have no idea. 7 a Okay. Did Ambassador Volken even communicate ultimately he would be able he thought 9 the negative nannative that Mr. Giuliani 10 conrected and, you know, wasn't 11 States to you that to convince the President that 8 was amplifying could ? A I would say that Ambassador Volker is a deeply and pnofoundly fon the futune of Ukraine policy. optimistic person with high L4 So, you know, whethen he accurately assessed the 15 he pnojected a gneat deal a Okay. And hopes of optimism about possibillty on not, it. did he even give you a readout -- they bniefed L7 the Pnesident aften the inaugunation, which is just befone you 18 on board. Did he even give you a readout 19 A You know, of how the neadout that I had gotten was simply that the President continued to view -- and I knew this fnom 2t expenience 22 Ambassadon 24 25 came that meeting went? 20 23 be in the best intenest of the United 13 16 issue nelating Giuliani's, like, othen clients, other than the Pnesident of 3 t2 was an my own personal -- continued to view Uknaine as a connupt countny. And Volker had used -- had shared with me the same line that I believe he shaned in his opening statement, which was, you know, they tnied to take me down. So I had heand him say that pneviously. a Did Ambassadon Volken te11 you that the Pnesident nefenned UNCLASSIFIED 91 UNCLASSIFIED t the delegation to 2 Giuliani 3 A Rudy My undenstanding about with the Pnesident 5 l{ray 6 7 mone on anything nelated to Rudy ? 4 25 to learn -- when was the takeaway fnom the May 25 meeting was that -- or the meeting following the meeting? the a I think it was May 23rd, was the Oval Office. A I'm losing my dates hene. But the 0va1 meeting was that 8 Sondland, Volker, and sont of Penry, as a troika, on as the Thnee Amigos, 9 had been sont 10 11 L2 13 of tasked with Uknaine policy. a Okay. And that was a tasking fnom the Pnesident on -- A Fnom the President, yeah. A Okay. And did part of that tasking, to youn undenstanding, include confenning with Mn. Giuliani? 22 A I believe I undenstood that Kunt had been asked to speak with Giuliani, but like I said, I asked no followup questions about that. a Okay. And my time is just about up. The tenminology Thnee Amigos, what is that about? Like, when did you finst hean the term? Like, who coined it? What do you know about that? A 0h, gosh. I mean, I think that -- that, I think, came out, I mean, just sont of -a Was that just a tenm Ambassadon Sondland liked to use? A I think we wene all sont of stnuggling to explain the veny 23 unusual sont 24 with Uknaine, and so that's sont of t4 15 16 L7 18 19 20 27 25 a of policy configuration that had been established whene some Did Ambassadon Volken even nefen UNCLASSIFIED of to deal these to himself pnoudly as pant 92 UNCI,ASSIFIED 1 of the Three A I don't a If you can nememben. A It doesn't sound like 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Amigos? something he would say. I don't think so. a OkaY. A I don't have any specific recollection eithen way. MR. CASTOR: My time is uP. THE CHAIRMAN: It's my recommendation, because we have a second counsel so we can't do these 10 witness nepresented by the 11 concunnently, that we wonk thnough lunch and have food bnought 72 can take a short bneak so you can eat out 13 I will have food bnought same of the committee in. noom, but to you. 15 to take a quick bneak now, we'ne going to got 45 minutes nounds, on do you want to take a bneak after the next t6 45-minute round. 14 L7 18 Do you want MS. CROFT: I think I 'd like to take a veny - - I THE CHAIRMAN: Why 20 MS. CROFT: 2L use a veny shont break. 23 can do it quickly, though -- 19 22 We -- THE CHAIRMAN: tny to make don't we take a -- because I don't want to dnaw this out. I Let's take a S-minute bneak, 5 minutes be 5 minutes. Okay. Actually short. 24 MS. CROFT: 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. UNCLASSIFIED Okay. and could this time let's 93 UNCLASSIFIED t I Recess . ] 2 THE CHAIRMAN: 3 a few questions befone I tunn it 5 in Uknaine 6 administnation. between to Pnesident counsel. Obama administration and the that was a THE CHAIRMAN: And 11 MS. CROFT: Absolutely. 72 THE CHAIRMAN: And so oven very hot war initially? time the nisk of escalation may have ? L4 MS. CROFT: Absolutely. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Tnump t7 to weigh in 18 Uknaine. I was stnuck by something you said duning the and that was that it was veny unusual fon OMB But administnation, 16 on a policy decision t,rJhy was MS. CROFT: 19 Tnump That's connect. 10 changed on the gnound ? MS. CROFT: 9 the have of Ukraine took place while Banack 0bama was The invasion 7 13 back I won't ask you to go into the changed cincumstances 4 8 Okay. Let's go back on th€ necond. I just like the pnovision of Javelins to that so unusual? I had neven heard of OMB injecting itself lnto a 20 punely policy discussion on decisionmaking pnocess. What stnuck 21. about 22 aIl of the tnaditional foneign policy-making 23 Iong expnessed views. And, secondly, that the objection on concerns 24 expnessed wene 25 nathen it especially is, finst, that that position was in contnast to agencies long held and not nelated to the money, the budget pant of to the policy pant of the decision. UNCLASSIF]ED me OMB, but 94 UNCLASSIFIED L 2 I see. Now, the decision is ultimately provide the lavelins in 2017, at the end of the yean? THE CHAIRMAN: 3 MS. CROFT: Uh-huh. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: You 5 MS. CROFT: 6 THE If to should saY Yes. I'm sorny. Yes. CHAIRMAN: made we Thank you. flash fonward to 2OL9 and Pnesident Zelensky 7 naising in the calt with Pnesident Trump the desine, we'ne almost neady 8 to 9 lavelins they would have neceived aften the appnoval of the finst 10 11 buy mone Javelins, would lavelins at the end of that have been the next incnement of 2OL7? MS. CROFT: YES. L4 I take it that the policy of the administnation, at least as you undenstood it, between the finst punchase and the second punchase that Zelensky nefenned to in that call 15 hadn't changed. It was still the policy of the administnation to 16 provide lavelins. T2 13 17 18 19 THE CHAIRMAN: And Yes. I just want to be sont of clean on -- so the 2Ot7 decision related to I guess what would technically be a punchase but was in fact a pnovision using FMF, as we have discussed. MS. CROFT: Right. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: 2t MS. CROFT: Wheneas, 22 actual punchase the mone necent decision nelated to an with Ukrainian national funds. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Right. 24 MS. CROFT: SornY. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: But the policy of pnoviding defensive UNCLASSIF]ED weapons 95 UNCLASSIFIED 1 either thnough funding that 2 change. 3 Javelins It we pnovided on thnough a punchase didn't still the policy view that we should be pnoviding to Ukraine to defend itself against Russia. was 4 MS. CROFT: Between 2@t7 and 2@19 that 5 a Okay. policy did not So when Pnesident Zelensky bnought up change. his intenest 6 in acquining 7 want you 8 have been up 9 expectation that the policy hadn't changed and that they would be able 10 to mone Javelins and the Pnesident nesponded by saying, I to do us a favon, though, on words to that effect, it until that point of the convensation go fonwand with punchase MS. CROFT: L1. of In fact, the Pnesident had mentioned multiple times in the sont of immediate aftermath 13 in FMF L4 shouldn't be giving using that 16 Ponoshenko. And it is 17 and 18 Pnesident. that Zelensky of the decision to pnovide lavelins Uknaine should be buying fnom us. We that to the Ukrainians unden Pnesident my came undenstanding THE CHAIRMAN: What do you mean 20 MS. CROFT: That his expectation 2L and buy equipment from the United 22 stuff. THE CHAIRMAN: So pnocess stanted then, nesponding was that Uknaine would go ahead let to the President's finst punchase of Javelins, Pnesident 25 saying, we'ne going the by a do-out? States, not just 24 to that that into office viewing it as a do-out to 19 23 this it to them. So we had nelayed 15 Zelensky's mone Javelins? L2 2OL7 would us give them comments on the Zelensky was nesponding by buy them this time and we're almost neady. UNCLASSIFIED 96 UNCLASSIFIED L MS. CROFT: 2 THE 3 MS. CROFT: 8 them to it within the Pnesident's powen you? That's a good question, and I don't give you a veny specific Technically, 6 7 CHAIRMAN: Nevertheless, was to say, I'm not going to sell 4 5 That's connect. That's night. unden answen the know that I can to it. Obama administnation thene was no ban on to Ukraine. The policy ban was only on the provision, on at least that's how I undenstood it at the time. the sale of weapons THE CHAIRMAN: 9 I'm 10 MS. CROFT: Sonny, 11 ,THE sonny? I can nepeat that on wait. CHAIRMAN: The Pnesident could decide, could he not, I may the lawful authonity to sell you these, but I'm still not going t2 have 13 to sel1 them to you? That's connect. L4 MS. CROFT: 15 THE CHAIRMAN: My is pointing out to me that the sentence Pnesident Zelensky bnings up the lavelins neads, I -- this is 16 befone t7 Pnesident Zelensky -- I counsel would also like to thank you fon youn gneat 27 in the anea of defense. So at this point he's thanking him fon what's alneady been done in the past. And what kind of suppont in the anea of defense had the Tnump administration pnovided up until that point? Would it have been 22 the FMF that allowed them to buy the Javelins, 18 19 20 support MS. CROFT: 24 THE CHAIRMAN: nesponse to my othen things? I believe so, Yes. 23 25 among Okay. Let me jump ahead to your comments in colleagues' questions in the minonity. UNCLASSIFIED 97 UNCLASSIFIED When 1 in July -- it was finst, you know, sont of one of the meetings 2 you said was blown up by the news that thene was hold on the militany 3 assistance. This is 4 the lines that 5 about it now was in 20L9, I think you made a comment along inevitable that people wene going to find out this. Is that night? 6 MS. CROFT: That was my assessment 7 THE CHAIRMAN: News at the time, of this kind that thene was yeah. a hold on this 8 militany assistance wasn't something that's going to be kept bottled 9 up with as many people knowing about it as they did? That's cornect, yeah. 10 MS. CROFT: L7 THE CHAIRMAN: And, in fact, I think you said that wond of that L2 got to the Uknainians, and two Uknainian officials fnom the 13 neached out to you quietly to ask you about embassy this hold? s night . 14 MS. CROFT: That' 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, you said that these two Ukrainian Embassy t7 officials - - and I'm not going to ask you to identify them eithen - - you undenstood they had no intenest in this becoming public. Is that 18 night 16 ? That's cornect. That's connect. 19 MS. CROFT: 20 THE CHAIRMAN: And why 2L MS. CROFT: Because would they not want I think that if this this to wene become public? public in Uknaine it would be seen as a revensal 23 of oun policy and would, just to say sont of candidly and colloquially, this would be a nea1ly big deal, 24 it would be a 25 U.S. suppont fon Uknaine. 22 really big deal in Uknaine, and an expnession UNCLASSIFTED of declining 98 UNCLASSIFIED THE CHAIRMAN: So 7 2 out in the 5 be that in the end the hold would lifted, they had no neason for this to THE CHAIRMAN: So want to through whateven was causing the hoId, they wanted 7 of the public attention? 8 MS. CROFT: Exactly. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: 13 L4 15 16 T7 18 out. this to wonk nemain out Okay. I'11 yield to Mn. Goldman. BY MR. GOLDMAN: 10 t2 come as long as they thought that they could 6 11 in this not coming pness? MS. CROFT: As long as they thought 3 4 Uknaine had eveny intenest a Following up on the convensations you had with the Uknainian officials in the embassy hene in D.C., I believe you said that you could not nememben the dates of those convensations. Is that night? A Yeah, I can't nememben those specifics. a Wene they on the phone or in penson? A They wene in penson. a Did you take notes? A I don't believe I did take notes on those occasions. 22 a Did you take notes aften? A I would have to neview my notes to be certain, but I don't think I did. a Okay. And just on the topic of youn notes, while we'ne 23 thene, you ane still in possession of youn -- the notes that you -- 19 20 21 24 A Yes. 25 a And did you neview them befone you UNCLASSIFIED came to testify here today? 99 UNCLASSIFIED 2 A Yes, bniefly. THE CHAIRMAN: If I could, counsel, 3 Would youn calendans 1 4 MS. CROFT: No, -- 6 othen 7 pnobably and othen, a at thein L2 investigation 15 16 t7 18 19 and 1ike, sort of electnonic communications, I could to the State nelated to this And pnesumably these emails wene tunned oven Depantment L4 but I believe if I dug thnough my emails BY MR. GOLDMAN: 11 13 have find it, if that's of interest of the committee. THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, it would be. Thank you. 9 10 indicate the dates in which you would visited with Uknainian officials. 5 8 sonny. nequest to gathen documents ? A So my undenstanding is that the process in nesponse to the -- the infonmation nequest is that the buneau that handles oun technology automatically looks thnough all of oun email, so those ane automatically available to the committee thnough that, whateven that pnocess is, and I don't have visibility on it. Sepanately, any of my communications that I've had with Uknainians on Ambassadon Volken on othenwise via WhatsApp, I have 22 to the State Depantment system pen State Depantment guidelines. Those would have been made available in the same fashion. a So they did collect youn documents to nespond to the 23 subpoena, as 20 2L 24 25 exponted fan as you know? A Sepanately, I made my handwnitten in response to the subpoena. UNCLASSIFIED documents aIl available 100 UNCLASSIFIED 1. 2 3 4 I to tny to go thnough a couple of dates to to jog youn memony as to when these meetings might have been? a Now, want tny A Yeah. ' a Okay. You talked about an email that you sent to Bnuce at 0IA to set up a meeting with the AG. 5 Swantz 6 youn convensations 7 befone on aften Do you neca1l whethen with eithen of the Uknainian officials that happened meeting? t4 A I don't recalL the sequence, I'm sonny. a Do you take any vacation in August? A No. a OkaY. A Sonny. I was told I was allowed to take vacation as long as I could wonk anywhene that I was. So -a Do you have an appnoximate estimation of how fan apant these 15 two convensations 8 9 10 7L L2 13 16 77 A wene? With the two diffenent Uknainians? a week. But again, I I thought it was noughly can look up those dates and get back. 20 a Okay. And the last question is, whethen you know the date on not of when it became public, do you nememben it becoming public? A I honestly don't specifically nememben when it was neported 2L in the public. 18 L9 22 23 24 25 a A A But you rememben Yes, yeS, I at some point it became public? do nemember that. So do you neca11 how convensations, the second fan befone it became of the convensations? UNCLASSIFIED public you had these 101 UNCLASSIFIED A I 1 nememben being veny surpnised at the effectiveness 2 Uknainian countenpants' diplomatic tnadecraft, as 3 out very early on on 5 6 befone on aften youn briefing A I 8 9 eanlien than I at my say they found expected them to. a In light of when it became public? A In light of when it became public. a And last question. Do you nemember if 4 7 much in to of these meetings wene SFRC? could only guess night now, and to say that it was befone, but I'm not centain. 11 a Okay. That -- all right. We1I, we would appneciate if you would try to look thnough youn notes and emails and penhaps youn L2 attonney can send a letten to the committees identifying the dates of 13 the meetings. 10 You mentioned 14 that email to Bnuce Swantz to set up a meeting with 15 the Attonney Genenal, and I believe you testified that you did not 16 believe that Ambassador Volken met with the Attonney Genenal himself. Do you know whether Ambassadon Volken met L7 18 Depantment with anyone at the of lustice? 2L A Othen than attempts to connect him with Bnuce Swantz, which I'm not awane of any othen contact. a So once you connected him aften that, do you know whethen 22 thene was any follow up fnom Ambassadon Volken with the Depantment of 23 I L9 20 24 25 ustice ? A I just kept neminding Ambassadon I have no idea what happened aften that. UNCLASSIFTED Volken to So call Bnuce Swantz. I don't -- I don't know. 102 UNCLASSIFIED a A a A 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Why wene you reminding him nepeatedly to call him? Because he kept fongetting. And Bnuce Swantz said that he should call Yes, yes, Bnuce Swantz had said, have him him? call me. And so I just kept telling Kunt, h.y, nemember to call Bnuce. a And do you know what the nequest nelated to in any way? A I infenred that it was intenfenence in the 2016 investigations, and I don't know remember exactly how I knewthat, but that's what I nelayed to Bnuce in my email to him. a 10 And around the time that you reached out to Bnuce Swantz did L1 you have a meeting with Geonge Kent whene you discussed whethen thene t2 was an ongoing 13 the 2016 election? A I L4 investigation in the Depantment of lustice nelated to believe we did have a bnief pull-aside 15 nelayed his concenns about sont 16 but of evenything that in which Geonge was going on to me, 18 I don't -- I mean, that was on the mangins of some othen meeting, and I don't nememben the specific date, I'm sonny. a No, I'm not asking fon the date. I'm just -- you do 19 nememben - - L7 22 A Yeah. I nemember anound what time that was. a Putting aside just fon the moment the date of that convensation, was it close in time to when you reached out to Bnuce 23 Swartz 20 2L 24 25 ? A I expect it pnobably was, Yeah. a And can you give us as much detail UNCLASSIFfED as you necall about the 103 UNCLASSIFIED L convensation you had with Geonge Kent A 2 My recollection of: is that at the pull-aside? Kunt had asked me something along investigation like this 3 the lines 4 Like an investigation befone on something like that into, 5 know 6 accunately. -I 7 Have we even done an otr, no, I'm sorny, I just want befone? you to make sune I get this exactly believe the question that Kunt asked me was: Have we ever asked 8 another countny to do an investigation fon us before? And 9 I I think that 10 that question to Geonge, and that that pnompted Geonge, I think, to just expness his displeasune at the nole of sont of Rudiani 11 and any involvement L2 investigations. nelayed of the State Depantment in any convensations about 15 a Did you mean Rudy Giuliani? A What did I -- I'm sonny, what did I say? I'm getting tined. a I won't nepeat it. It was a combination of names. 16 VOICE: You coined a new term. L7 MS. CROFT: 13 t4 20 2t 22 23 24 25 my Coke fon a second hene. BY MR. GOLDMAN: 18 19 I'm just going to sip a What do you recall can, Geonge Kent saying A The message mone specifically, as specifically to you in nesponse as you to youn inquiny of that I got back was, bnoadly, we should be staying I knew him to be unhappy with the fact that Rudy Giuliani was playing -- I think I got it night thls time any role in this process at all. a Did he undenstand that the question about investigations out of this, we shouldn't have anything to do with UNCLASSIFIED it. him? And 704 UNCLASSIFIED 1 that you asked him related to 2 advocating Giuliani and what he had been ? A I 3 Rudy at the time asking the question in a veny sont because the question as nelayed to me wasn't about nememben 4 of genenic sense, 5 investigating anything in panticulan on anything specific. But the 6 stnength of Geonge's neaction suggested to 7 of something much more specific when I me that asked Geonge was thinking the question. 10 a And when he refenenced Rudy Giuliani did you know - A I'm not -- I'm sonry -- I'm not positive he refenenced Giuliani by name on if he just nefenenced sont of this whole 11 investigation situation, all of the convensations about investigation. 8 9 t2 13 a And what did you undenstand him to Rudy mean, whateven he said about the investigation? A Yeah. What I 18 to mean was that he was veny unhappy in the role that Rudy Giuliani was playing and that he was unhappy that Kunt was talking to Giuliani. a And these wene -- did you undenstand mone specifically what these investigations -- what the subject of these investigations were 19 at that point? 1.4 15 15 t7 20 understood him A At that point I just undenstood it to sort of be bnoadly 2L investigations into the 2016 elections. But the question that 22 nesponding to fnom Kunt wasn't 23 a 24 mean Uknaine 25 A And when you say I was about anything specifically. investigation into Uknainian -UNCLASSIFIED 2015 election, do you 105 UNCLASSIFIED t 2 3 4 7 8 9 10 with No. Geonge Kent about A L2 To my 19 20 expect them 2L with 25 just a Undenstood. A something like that. a If Geonge Kent took notes of that convensation, would you 18 24 was a puIl-aside in the hallway on -- L7 23 necollection, yeah, that's the only convensation that a Okay. Did you take notes of that convensation? A No, it wasn't a planned meeting or convensation, it 15 22 these investigations and Rudy Giuliani? we had. L4 16 A an a Did you even discuss with Geonge Kent A No. a -- the specifics of the investigations? A No. a To youn necollection, is this the only convensation you had 6 13 Uknainian intenfenence intenfenence? in the 2016 election. And with George Kent at that meeting, did you discuss investigation into Bunisma on the Bidens? 5 11 a A a to be accunate, to accunately neflect what you discussed him? A a A Not necessanily. And why is that? Not fon any neasons of malice, but veny stnongly about these issues, and he has a UNCLASSIFIED I know that Geonge feels lot of emotion tied into 106 UNCLASSIFIED t it, 2 of things aren't the same. a So he feels veny strongly against any sont of political and so sometimes oun perceptions 3 interfenence in foneign 4 it? 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 A He policy. Is that an accunate way of reflecting feels veny stnongly in all aspects of oun policy with to Ukraine. a Pnion to youn meeting with Mn. Kent, did you become awane at any point of a potential statement that the Ukrainians might put out nelated to a -- a potential statement about U.S. nelations that the Uknainians were considening to issue? A I believe I only heand one passing refenence to it as an negand t4 and I'm sonny, Volker and Sondland -- that I wasn't party to. But I believe that by the time I heard that passing nefenence it was well aften the fact and 15 well aften 72 13 16 L7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 outcome perhaps fnom a nefenence a a convensation between Kunt decision was made not to pnoduce any sont of such statement. Do you necall whene you were when you heard that passing ? A I don't necall. a Wene you in Kyiv in the - A I don't JuIy 26th? a A Oh, yeah, I was in Kyiv on JuIy 26th, sonny. a No, flo, is that when you heand this convensation, this passing nefenence? A I don't think so. I think it UNCLASSfFIED was well aften all of that. 707 UNCLASSTFIED a And what was the passing neference that you recall heaning? A I think simply that 1t wasn't in Zelensky's intenest to make L 2 specific statement about specific investigations 3 a 4 you know, the outcome 6 7 8 a Meaning Ambassadon Volken nefenred A I just believe he t4 phone on something 15 nememben 16 befone that. 19 20 2t 22 23 24 25 made so. to a convensation that In the counse of talking about something else a neference to the 13 18 heand a nefenence he had pneviously had with Ambassadon Sondland? 12 77 himself to, to it. 10 LL tie of U.S. domestic politics. a Who said that? A Kunt did. a And how did Sondland nespond? A I wasn't panty to that convensation, I just 5 9 and fact -- on he might have been on the like that. I don't nememben what it was. But I being sunpnised, because I wasn't awane of that convensation a so -- A a Which is So you l why -- didn't hean the convensation between Ambassadons Volken and Sondland? A a A A A Connect. Got it. Not on the statement. Not You mentioned that that f recaII. YES confenence? Uh-huh. UNCLASSIFIED 108 UNCLASSIFIED a 1 2 might do a 3 confenence A 4 you awane of any possibility that Pnesident Zelensky Wene CNN intenview on anothen television intenview at that YES ? Thene was a lot of media at the confenence. And, in fact, did quite a lot of media himself. I was not panty 5 Ambassadon Volken 6 to any specific, that I recaI1, any specific Uknainian plans with regand 7 to pness confenences. a 8 9 10 Do you nememben Ambassadon Volken discussing eithen with you on anyone else whethen on not Pnesident Zelensky might do a intenview in that Septemben timefname? A I don't L1 72 something 13 I said, it was I a 15 the last round t7 specific recollection, but that's not have stood out in that context, just because, like have any that would 14 16 a media-heavy event. want to go back now whene you wene to the convensation that talking to Ambassadon a And where we ended Taylor night befone is that you wene nelaying he was nelaying 20 0va1 meeting fnom Ambassadon A I'm so sonny, can you ask the question again? 22 a 25 on Volken. Is that right? 21 why to him -- to you, I think, what he had heand about the May 23nd 19 24 we ended on you'left to Kyiv. A Uh-huh. 18 23 television Sune. In that meeting that you had with Ambassadon Taylon, don't you nemind us what he told you that he undenstood occunned at the l4ay 23rd 0va1 meeting? A I'm not sure that we discussed the l(ay 23rd Oval meeting when UNCLASSIFIED 109 UNCLASSIFIED I necall him saying was that he 1 I 2 bnoadly supponted what Ambassadon Volken was tnying to do, which 3 relevant to spoke with a A 4 5 Ambassadon my Taylor. trJhat job. And what was that? To advance U.S.-Uknaine nelations in a positive dinection, it 6 Incnease U.S. suppont fon Uknaine, whethen 7 assistance on diplomatic means, and then to go 8 tenms 9 10 of oun negotiations -conflict in eastenn Uknaine, Eunopean support L1. a 72 just want to 13 74 A a was fon on the Minsk -- and then also would be secunity somewhene positive in negotiations on the to continue nallying Uknaine. Undenstood. And you've mentioned say something this a couple times, I at this polnt. Sune. We fuI1y undenstand that the vast majonity of youn job had 15 nothing to do with the questions that we'ne focused on hene today. 16 we undenstand 17 things. 18 19 A a that most of youn convensations would nelate to other Uh-huh. We ane obviously interested in a panticulan aspect of 20 expenience, and so that's why we'ne asking these questions. 2t understand 22 panticulanly with We youn fuI1y that thene would be other things that you would discuss, Ambassadon Volken. 24 in the context of youn discussion with Ambassadon Taylon related to Ambassadon Volker, dld anything related to these 25 investigation nannatives, Rudy Giuliani, 23 So So UNCLASSIFIED Ambassadon Taylon's 110 UNCLASSIFIED L concenns, anise in connection with Ambassadon Volken? A In connection with Ambassadon Volken, no. I think 2 we wene 3 both veny confident that we undenstood what Ambassador Volker's views 4 wene on 5 advancing U.S. intenests. U.S. interest a 6 When in you wene Uknaine, and that they wene, as I said, in Kyiv fon the month of June, did you 7 any discussions with Uknainian countenpants about these 8 that 9 10 wene in the media at that have investigations Point? A I did not, no. a Did you have any discussions with youn colleagues about 11 convensations they may have had with Uknainians about these t2 investigations ? 19 A No. a Wene you awane of whethen on not, you know, that these wene -- these investigations wene a considenation of Pnesident Zelensky and his senior team when you were in Kyiv? A I have no necollection of that being the case. a When did Ambassadon Taylon annive in Kyiv? A Mid-June, I don't know the specific date, but about halfway 20 thnough my time thene. 13 t4 15 16 77 18 2L a And for the time that he was have any discussion 23 we've been discussing hene todaY? 25 A No. I think my only convensation about the morale you with Ambassadon Taylon about any of the issues that 22 24 there until the end, did at the embassY. UNCLASSIFIED with Ambassador Taylon was 111 UNCLASSIFIED 1 a 2 A In 3 a 4 5 bnoadly rn -Kyiv. In connection to what was going on with U.S. policy on just ? A In connection to the impact of that, and the hit that that and the impact of Ambassadon Taylon's 6 depantune, and the cincumstances around 7 took to monale in the embassy, 8 annival. 9 10 11 t2 13 t4 15 16 a Were you awane on talking to Ambassador Yovanovitch's of a - - so how fnequently wene you meeting Ambassador Taylon when you wene oven thene? A Not fnequently. We just encountened each other in the hallway. a But you didn't have any sont of -A No. a -- official meetings on discussions about policy things that ane going on othen on? 23 A No. I don't think we had any neal one-on-ones aften that -- aften his arnival. a You annived in D.C. on the 1st of July. A No, I'm sonny, I depanted Kyiv on the lst of JuIy. I made a stop in Bnussels and in Vienna on my way back. a Okay. When did you netunn to D.C.? A My finst day on the job was JuIy 8. I think I netunned the 24 7th, if that's cornect. t7 18 19 20 2L 22 25 a Did you leann whethen -- we11, did you leann UNCLASSIFIED that Ambassadon LL2 UNCLASSIFIED 1 Volken had gone Tononto in early JuIy? A Yes. a Do you know who else was thene fnom the U.S. Govennment? A I know Chnistopher Andenson was thene. a And did you discuss this confenence with Mn. Andenson? A Not in gneat detail, but yes. a Wene you awane of whethen on not Ambassadon Volken had a 2 3 4 5 5 7 8 to a confenence in pnivate meeting with Pnesident Zelensky? A a A 9 10 11 I that he had, Yes. And what did you understand about that meeting? Only Ambassadon VoIken's assessment of Pnesident Yes, undenstood his intentions with L2 and 13 talked about befone. negand to nefonms and so Zelensky fonth, the things I've 15 a A L6 was impnessed 17 seriousness, and that he was senious about combating conruption. t4 a 18 19 20 27 22 23 24 25 met What do you mean by that? That Ambassadon Volken took away fnom that meeting And that he with Pnesident Zelensky, he was impressed with the that was pnetty much the unanimous view of evenybody who him. Is that night? A That's my undenstanding. a And that's what you heand when you wene in Kyiv in June? A In Kyiv, I think thene was a lot mone sont of wariness about this oliganch, Kolomoisky, and his appointment of Bogdan, who was Kolomoisky's lawyer. I mean, I can go into it, but I don't know how intenesting that is to you. Thene was a little mone Zelensky's ties to UNCLASS]FIED 113 UNCLASS]FfED 1 skepticism a 2 3 his 5 Kyiv. But you also understood pnomises A a 4 in of refonm veny had acted on some of quickly. Is that night? Yeah, he set a veny ambitious nefonm agenda night at the jump. Do you know whethen on 6 Ambassadon Volken had discussed 7 Zelensky at that pu11-aside in not -- wene you infonmed at all that these investigations with President Tononto? A I would not have been awane of that. I was -- I am not awane. a Mn. Anderson did not nelay that to you? A No. a You've discussed that JuIy 10th meeting in the 0val with 8 9 10 11 I that Zelensky Ambassadon Bolton, and you got a neadout 15 And you 16 17 A 19 I don't a A 20 27 23 24 25 was a discussion of whethen on not thene would be an Ova1 Office meeting? 18 22 also said that there the So that know what was my undenstanding specifically And who gave you Kunt Genman this was of the goal of that meeting. said about an Oval. neadout? did in the context of the meeting that National Secunity Advison, we had aften with Hecken. a Meaning how it would affect Genmany on - A Right, because the Genmans and French ane sont of the negotiators, along with Uknaine and Russia, in tenms of nesolving the UNCLASSTFIED tL4 TINCLASSIFIED L situation in the east. a 2 And did you get any detail about the discussion with Bolton and Danylyuk and any of the Uknainians about that, 3 Ambassadon 4 the White House A 5 just 7 impnessions 8 nonmal 10 L\ 72 13 t4 15 16 of pentain to this. of Andney Yermak, impnessions of Danylyuk, Not anything that would sort 6 9 meeting? impnessions of how serious they wene about nefonms, Sont of all the sont of stuff. a So Ambassador Volken did not tell you any details about the discussion about getting a White House meeting? A OnIy a A Who was making that they wene making the case fon it. the case fon it? The Uknainians and Kunt and evenyone else. We undenstood that Botton also favoned getting the meeting. a And did you -- did Ambassadon Volker say anything to about anything that Ambassadon Sondland said at that meeting? UNCLASSIFIED you 115 UNCLASSIFIED 1 [1-1:33 a.m.] 2 MS. CROFT: No. 3 MR. GOLDMAN: Now you were 4 THE CHAIRMAN: 5 Before you go on with So when Ambassadon Volken gave you MS. CROFT: No. I THE CHAIRMAN: So the only feedback you got MS. CROFT: No, nothing about we wene with the 15 Ambassadon Volken 16 that to teII you about things that wene innegulan, 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. Goldman. 19 BY MR. GOLDMAN: 20 a In this -- weII, 25 in mid-JuIy? A Yes, late happened place for in that meeting to put a diplomatic tenm on it. MS. CROFT: Right. 24 would also note that at the time. So this would not have been a suitable L7 23 that, but I Genmans THE CHAIRMAN: L4 22 was Mn. Bolton? L2 2L L0 , but nothing about what might have upset 10 13 a neadout on that JuIy meeting, did he teII you anything about why it ended abnuptly? 8 11 that topic, if I could just folIow up. 6 7 in Kyiv -- ane you aware that Fiona Hill left the NSC JuIy. a Do you know the date? A I thought it was the tnansition with hen successon was the week of that, the week that ended with that phone call so that same UNCLASSIFIED 116 UNCLASSTFTED L week 2 of July 25th, that was my -- that's my necollection. a Did you -- she was youn fonmen boss at the NSC? 3 A Right, 4 a 5 uh-huh. Did you have any convensations with hen aften you took this job as a special assistant? 8 A I sent hen a note after I took the position just to say that I took it and she said congnatulations, that's it. a So when you wene back in D.C. in July and befone she left 9 you 6 7 10 didn't have any convensations on meetings with hen? A I went to hen fanewe11, but we didn't talk about Uknaine LL policy. t2 a Now, you said that the -- you were in Kyiv anound the time 13 of the July 25th calI, L4 ZeIensky, Ambassadons Volker, Sondland, and Taylor, and a note taker 15 and an interpneten, 16 17 18 A Yes. a A Was We and thene was a meeting on is that night? thene a pnemeeting that you attended befone that? attended a meeting chief a Did you discuss the A Yes, yes. 19 20 the 26th with President of staff Bohdan. White House meeting at that meeting? 23 a And what was the nature -- can you describe with as much detail as you can what that convensation entailed? A It was about the pnospect fon some sont of touch in Wansaw, 24 as 25 Assembly. And the Uknainians, as I necaII, wene pushing to have an 2L 22 well as a potential for a meeting on the sidelines of the U.N. General UNCLASSIF]ED Lt7 UNCLASSIFIED 1 0va1 meeting somewhene anound, immediately befone 2 we wene 3 know, 4 on the mangins 5 then it could look sont of that -- on Kunt was counseling an Oval meeting would be betten of UNGA, and them or aften UNGA. And that that almost -- you diplomatically than a meeting that the dates ane too close to each othen, 7 like they ane not getting thein own Oval meeting, but nathen, they happened to be in town. Is that nesponsive? a Undenstood, yes. Was -- this meeting was the day aften the 8 ca11, night? 5 A a A 9 10 11 L2 And He did said Bohdan mention it a And by ambassadons that point, ca}l, very positive, they had good I got was just that it was good. had you gotten a neadout fnom any of the ? A No. So that meeting 15 anything about the call? was a veny good chemistny, so the neadout that 13 t4 Yes. was the prebnief fon the meeting with the only neadout that I got was the one fnom 16 Ze1ensky. t7 Taylon based on the meeting with Zelensky so that was aften that. a 18 19 22 23 24 25 Undenstood. And at the pnemeeting, was Ambassador there any discussion of investigations? A I don't necall that thene was. I can double-check 20 2t So but my notes, I don't think so. a And then -- and so you think you did take notes? A I did take notes at that meeting, and I supplied them punsuant to the nequest. a So the meeting with President Zelensky UNCLASSIFIED happened and you'ne 118 UNCLASSIFIED t not thene? A a 2 3 4 But you then descnibe a readout of that meeting that you got fnom who? A a A 5 6 7 8 Connect. way Taylon, with Ambassador Volken. Fnom Ambassadon And whene wene you when you Squished between the two to the ainpont, I and of got them this neadout? in the back of a can on oun sick. It was veny can was veny tight. a Wene you able to take notes if you wene squeezed in thene? A I tnied, but I got nea11y sick so I had to stop. a Did you neview those notes before you came today? A r--rdid. a And so you descnibed a little bit about that convensation. 9 10 11 L2 13 16 didn't specifically reca11 anything nelated to Bunisma on the Bidens, on whethen that came up in the convensation with Zelensky. But you did say is that night, that Ambassadon Taylon said t7 that Pnesident Zelensky told 18 investigations? Is that an accunate -- t4 15 you said you A 19 So in neviewing my them that Pnesident Tnump notes, what I had mentioned saw was a nefenence to three 22 B. My necollection, I believe, is that my note about thnee questions is that that was the Pnesident naising investigations, but I can't say that with 100 pencent 23 centainty. 24 I 20 27 25 questions, and quote no mention of And sepanately my note honestly do not a nememben And why would it to myself about no mention of if that was Bann, Biden, on Burisma. be Bann? UNCLASSIFIED B, 119 UNCLASSIFfED A 7 2 thene had been talk at some visit to Kyiv. a But you think it is one of thnee, either Bunisma point about the Barn, Biden, on ? A I'm guessing it was one of the thnee. a And you said there wene thnee questions that you undenstood 5 6 7 I -- Attonney Genenal making a 3 4 Because to be questions nelated to investigations? 8 A That the Pnesident had naised investigations multiple times. 9 a so -- 10 11 L2 13 A I think that that is my memony of what is in my nodes but honestly, Iike I said, A, the cincumstances wene not ideal, and B, that's not nealIy what I was listening fon. a Undenstood. So you do necall -- you believe that the to thnee questions L4 nefenence 15 investigations three times? 77 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25 that the President naised A I believe so. a And then youn note right 16 18 was undenneath that is no mention of B? A a A a Connect, connect. They are close in pnoximity? Yes. So as you sit hene today, you don't nememben whethen the B nelated to those investigations? A I don't specifically nememben what the B nelated to. But in reviewing my notes, my impression is that it would have been eithen, UNCLASSIFTED 720 UNCLASSIFIED L Biden on Bann, on maybe Bunisma, but I'm not centain. likely a 2 By that point, you were awane of this desine from some people 3 in the United States fon Uknaine to initiate these investigations? Is 4 that right? A a 5 6 Yes. And you undenstood that these investigations one nelated to 7 the potentially Uknainian intenfenence in the 2016 election. Is that 8 one of them? A Yes, yes. a And what was the othen one that you undenstood? A Into potential sont of Uknainb suppont for Bidens on some, 9 10 11 t2 you know, sont 13 that, a 15 investigation 77 A a So you undenstood And by that point, JuIy 25th, you knew that that 19 Burisma nelated Ambassadon Volken 23 nelated 25 whateven investigation whateven -- did was being advocated fon to loe Biden? A Conrect, yes. So negandtess whicheven B that is, sont of -a Undenstood. You said that you, at some point, thanked 22 24 that Biden and Bunisma wene the same Yes. you undenstand 2t conflict of interest on something like ? 18 20 some Biden and Bunisma. 74 16 of idea, for keeping you out of the mess, Giuliani. Is that accunate? A Yeah, I don't know if I specifically to I think is youn quote, Rudy but just genenal business, YQS, with Giuliani. UNCLASSIFIED used the wond "messr" Lzt UNCLASSIFIED 1 a 2 convensation 3 A I 4 a 5 a call 13 18 19 20 had And so, you believe I I don't - - pnobably you said you believe that in touch with Mn. Giuliani pnion to the July 25th feel pnetty confident about that? Yeah, I heand about it, like I said, eanlien on. You heand about a A it was as soon as The finst I got back fnom Ukraine. in Ukraine Sonny, in lune. Aften my June tnip to Ukraine, I When you wene made a lot of tnips. a You heand about it pnetty soon aften you stanted the job -A Exactly, exactly. a And what did Ambassadon -- what did Ambassadon Volken 22 thing? 25 would say pnobably, but Yes, yes. respond when you 24 to guess, I nememben. 2L 23 this tnip to Kyiv fon whene you met with ? A a A 72 t7 before Ambassadon Volken was 11 L6 it A If I 8 15 was? Was specifically L4 that do not, no. 7 10 when Zelensky on July 26th? 6 9 don't have a specific necollection as to And you A said, Thank you Nothing necessanily. fon keeping It's sont me out of the Giuliani of a non specific affinmation. a When you wene in Kyiv around that July 25th, UNCLASSTFIED 26th peniod, L22 UNCLASSIFIED 1 did you overhear any mention of Mn. Giuliani fnom any of the 2 ambas 3 4 sadors A didn't ? Not that I specifically necaIl, but that doesn't mean, I . 7 a Okay. Wene you awane of whethen Ambassadon Sondland had spoken to President Tnump while he was in Kyiv anound that time? A I believe that he eithen did on intended to speak with the 8 Pnesident aften 5 6 9 10 7L t2 a his call with And do know whether Zelensky. -- did Ambassadon Sondland even talk of staff Mick Mulvaney? A Yes, I undenstood Ambassadon Sondland to be in touch about having convensations with chief with Mick Mulvaney. 23 a How did you undenstand that? A Fnom his staff. a Whose staff? A I'm sonry. Fnom Ambassadon Sondland's staff. a What did they saY to You? A lust that he has contact with Mick Mulvaney and that he somehow knew him. But I didn't have specifics on that. a And who is the staff member? A So it transitioned while I was in this position, his chief and then thene was of staff, when I stanted, was a tnansition to , both Foneign Senvice 24 officens. 13 L4 15 16 17 18 19 20 2t 22 25 a Aften this, I just have 1 minute left. After this tnip to UNCLASSIFIED 123 UNCLASSIFIED t Kyiv, did 2 was meeting 3 A discuss with you that Rudy Giuliani Ambassadon VoIken even with Uknainians officials, including Not that I specifically necalI. I think I 4 the newspaper, along with evenybody else. I 5 Ambassadon Volken was 6 Yenmak 7 Yermak negulanly. 8 9 10 Do you know that -- I if Ambassadon Volken he spoke to Andney Yenmak it in knew that and with talked to Andney night befone the July 25th call? A I would be sunpnised if he 11 fnequently to such an extent that L2 single time they talked at aIl. 13 knew nead about dinectly in contact with both Giuliani and, in fact, Kirk -- on a Andne Yenmak? a And do you know whethen didn't. I think they spoke very I wouldn't have been awane of eveny they had any convensations othen than 16 conflict in the east? A I don't nememben if I had -- like I said, Kunt kind of kept me out of that channel of communication. So I don't necal1 having any t7 convensation with Kunt about his convensations with Yenmak, othen than 18 about tnying L4 15 nesolving the to get an 0va1 and the conflict, and, sont of, what thein 23 conflict in the East. A1so, Yenmak had a nole in the big prisoner exchange that happened so they would have talked about that I would imagine. a Did you intentionally tny to keep younself removed fnom Ambassadon Volken's activities nelated to what we call the othen 24 channel 19 20 2L 22 25 plan was fon nesolving the A ? The Giuliani channel. UNCLASSIFIED 724 UNCLASSIFlED 7 a The Giuliani channel. A Yes. I delibenately stayed out of that. a And did he respect that? A Yes. MR. GOLDMAN: Oun time is uP. THE CHAIRMAN: Oun time is up. What I would suggest is that we take a 15 minute bneak, so you can eat, we have food fon you. Let's 8 tny to 9 punposes, we'1I go L 2 3 4 5 5 nesume pnomptly at 1:05. And just fon our memben's planning to 45 minutes fon the minonity. When we netunn to 10 the majonity we'11 go to oun membens fon funthen questions. 11 in L2 necess until t:OS. I Recess . ] UNCLASSIFIED So we're t25 UNCLASSIFIED L 2 3 [1:16 a.m.] THE CHAIRMAN: to the minonity. BY MR. CASTOR: 4 5 5 7 8 9 10 L7 L2 Let's go back on the necord. Forty-five minutes a Thank you. Welcome back. Hope you had a delicious lunch. A Yes. Thank you fon pnoviding it. a That was centainly not me, that was Chainman Schiff and the majonity. A Thank you to Connad. a I just have a couple of questions and then oun Membens do have some ones fon you. of the oliganch Kolomoisky on Zelensky and the concern as to whethen Pnesident Zelensky You'd mentioned the influence 13 Pnesident t4 would influenced by him when he assumed the Pnesidency. Can you 15 us what you know about that? 16 A Nothing necessanily mone specific than what's in the pness. t7 But Kolomoisky owned the 1-Plus-1 (ph) television channel that 18 Zelensky's television show was on, and then subsequently hined 19 Kolomoisky's attonney as his chief 20 2L 22 23 24 25 telI of staff. a Okay. And his attonney, did you say his name was Bogdan? A Yes. a Does he nemain as chief of staff? A Yes. a Okay. And was thene ever any discussion among youn intenagency pantners about monitoning that situation to see if UNCLASSIFTED 126 UNCLASSIFIED L Kolomoisky's influence would have a negative effect on Zelensky? 2 A I think not just among my intenagency colleagues, but sont 3 of global1y evenybody who's watching Ukraine is watching that situation 4 quite closeIy. a 5 6 And since he assumed the Pnesidency assessment of 7 A 8 mid-September 9 nefonm 10 in May, what's been youn Kolomoisky's influence on Zelensky? Mixed necond. t^le wene fainly confident I think until that Zelensky was genuine in his -- I'm sonny, combat connuption and nemain independent of But Kolomoisky's appeanance at the YES confenence in t2 mid-Septemben, combined, you know, with some not as stnong as 13 we L4 naised 15 community. would like -- as like to see messages on the futune of PnivatBank, have at least I think yeIlow flags among those of us in the Uknaine policy a In youn time wonking with Lieutenant that he was not as t7 you even notice 18 with things as you may have 19 to combat commitment Kolomoisky. 11 16 about A I think Colonel Vindman, did involved in things -- not as involved been when you wene senving fnom my vantage in the same nole? point, AIex -- sonny, Lieutenant 20 Colonel Vindman was veny engaged. 2t a Okay. So you never witnessed him being cut out of things? A I think you'ne nefenning to sont of the Giuliani, sont of VoIker conversations. I wouldn't have had visibility on that in the first p1ace. 22 23 24 25 But in terms of the nonmal poticy process, he was veny UNCLASSIF]ED engaged L27 UNCLASSIFIED t 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 and, in fact, a A dnove a veny, veny intense Uknaine Lots of meetings and lots of taskings out A A The interagency, as a dinecton so State, DOD, a each of at the NSC normally And so he was having State Depantment centain tasks on assignments? 0n what do you A He convened 13 a 18 of those and wou1d, et cetera, et cetena. policy, L7 agenda? And who was he tasking? L2 16 agenda. meetings. and PCCs on Uknaine 15 policy What do you mean by intense Uknaine 11 14 policy officials mean penfonm by dnive? a negulan -- veny negulan schedule of to check in on oun engagement to Uknaine, sub-PCCs oun Uknaine to sont of dnive the ovenall wonk of the intenagency. Dld Lieutenant Colonel Vindman even expness concenns to you about the 7/25 call? A a A a We neven spoke You about it. indicated that you went to Dn. HilI's fanewell party? Yes. Did she expness any concenns duning the counse of the event 19 about hen cunnent situation, about Ambassadon Bolton on the Pnesident 20 on why she was leaving? 2L 22 23 24 25 A I think that she was less than thnilled with the cincumstances of hen depantune. I think she wanted to leave on hen on tenms and she might have felt a bit edged out. But we neven had any veny dinect convensation about sont of I got that sense fnom that convensation. UNCLASSIFIED that, just But we did not discuss L28 UNCLASSIFIED L 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 policy at any point duning that event. a Who was she edged out by? A Hen neplacement was Tim Monnison, as you know. a So Mn. Monnison had edged hen out is youn undenstanding? A I think she didn't feel like she got to leave at the time that she wanted to, and so -a And that was something dniven by Ambassador Bolton? A I don't know. I don't know the answen to that question. a okay. 9 10 Did she express any concenns about the Pnesident at hen fanewell panty? 13 A No, we didn't talk a Okay. That didn't A No, no. 74 MR. CASTOR: Mn. Meadows. 15 MR. MEADOWS: Thank 16 I've 11 12 about anything like that at the panty. come uP? you, Ms. Croft. been, as you wene going thnough, whethen 77 the majonity on the minonity, we've 18 and -- I've it's questions been tnacking with by you, 79 I love the foneign policy. I love the fact that you caII balls and stnikes and it is yeslno. It's nefneshing. And I just want to 20 say thank you. 23 I want to say thank you is you have been the expent on Uknaine policy duning pnobably one of most difficult times as a student of foneign policy, one of the most difficult times if you'ne 24 going 2L 22 25 The othen thing that to be a Uknaine expent. Your tenure has been at a cnitical, cnitical time. And so to be able to manage that, I just want to say UNCLASSIFIED L29 UNCLASS]F]ED 1 2 3 4 5 you. 0un wonld is a safen place obviously because you have been willing to senve. I want to acknowledge that as we go. And what I'd like to do is kind of just go in a little bit of nevense onden and maybe at a 10, O@O-foot leveI, so I'm not going to dnill down quite as close to some of the othen questions that have happened. thank 6 Russia invades Cnimea when? 7 MS. CROFT: Spning of 2@L5. 8 MR. MEADOWS: The spning of 2@L5. At what point wene you in L2 of Uknaine's -- the expent in tenms of Uknaine policy? MS. CROFT: So as I said in my opening statement, so I was covening Uknaine at NATO in August - - from August 2013 untiI, I think, Januanyish 2@t5. Because of the events sunnounding Uknaine I was pulled into the 13 fnont t4 of 15 opposed 9 10 11 16 change office. to MR. MEADOWS: So 18 pnoblem 2t continued NATO, with a in as the expent, and says, supenpowen penspective as section. at this cnitical time, Russia MS. CROFT: WeI1, officen, but I to tnack Uknaine fnom the but then fnom the ambassadon's office to from the political you get puIled 20 I oun U.S. mission t7 19 So comes into you know, go1ly, Cnimea, fix this invading Uknaine. at the time I was a second toun political was doing my best. MR. MEADOWS: And so as you come question. in, I know -- weI1, so let me lot of back and fonth in terms of what 22 ask the 23 the pnopen nesponse would be? You've got Russia being the aggnessor, 24 you've got Uknaine on the defense, you have at that time, 25 the belief that Russia Was thene a may f believe, even come funthen than whene they ane today. UNCLASSIFTED 130 UNCLASSIFIED thene a whole lot of back and fonth? L Was 2 MS. CROFT: 3 MR. MEADOWS: YCS. 4 MS. CROFT: 5 MR. MEADOWS: Both ane tnue. 6 MS. CROFT: Both ane you mean within the U.S. intenagency -- If I on among NATo alIies, -- tnue. would say both ane tnue. Both ane tnue. 10 in Bnussels, it took a while fon us to have a veny clean sense of exactly what was happening, not just in Cnimea, but also in eastenn Ukraine. As we all know looking back on it, Russia was sont of sending in 11 what we now nefer 7 8 9 L2 13 I think, fnom my penspective to take this tennitory. And since we hadn't seen anything quite Iike this befone, it took a while fon us to figune out -- and I say us, the United States, to as sont of the little gneen men 77 allies -- to figune out exactly what was happening and how we wene going to nesPond. MR. MEADOIJS: In fact, we had not seen it fon decades. And so this was kind of a nesungence of Russian aggression, even though in 18 their 74 15 16 19 but also our NATO all they wene doing was annexing a Russian pant of Ukraine. Wou1d you agnee with that assessment? mind MS. CROFT: Except 20 of counse, 2t was happening, 22 as 23 in Tnansniestnia in 24 25 to the extent that this did minnon in Abkhazia and South 0ssetia well as anguably what's happening -- what MR. MEADOWS: some in of what Geongia, was happening befone that Moldova. Okay. in the negion, not just And so would it oun NATO a11ies, not UNCLASSIFIED be fain to say that evenybody just the U. S. , but everybody 131 UNCLASS]FIED to this, I will 1 in the 2 po1itely, acquisition would ultimately stop? negion was veny nenvous as 3 MS. CROFT: Absolute1y, 4 MR. MEADOWS: Okay. whene I think that's fain to And so as we looked use the term say. at that, oun U.S. policy 5 in tnying to figune out a detennent that did not get us into 6 wan between two nuclear powens was pnobably 7 Is that a supenpowen the question of the day. connect? I think that's accurate to say, yes. 8 MS. CROFT: 9 MR. MEADOWS: So as they'ne nelying on your expentise, hene in the U.S. tnying to help us do 10 ane, you've been at NATO, now you'ne L1 this, the idea of foneign assistance fon Uknaine t2 essentially 13 confnontation with the Russians, was that pant of the calculus? show suppont you and how we can fon Uknaine without doing a dinect I think t4 MS. CROFT: Yes, 15 MR. MEADOWS: And so when you looked so. at this under the pnevious 16 administnation, because you've served in both this administnation L7 the pnevious administnation, so as they stanted to do that, would you 18 say 19 they believed the best nonlethal detennent to 20 that thene was an agneement among MS. CROFT: In tenms the agencies in tenms of and what be? of the nonlethal detennence, I can't speak 23 to sont of -- I think it evolved oven time, but I think we landed on the idea that the best nonlethal detennent was oun tnaining effonts and oun effonts at defense nefonm, so building the capacity, if you'ne 24 talking in strictly the secunity sense, in the militany -- 2L 22 25 MR. MEADOWS: Yeah, because you didn't focus as much on the UNCLASSIFIED t32 UNCLASSIFIED L economic on anything else. 2 MS. CROFT: Connect. 3 MR. MEADOWS: So on some 4 MS. CROFT: The defense 5 MR. MEADOWS: So of the defense side of things. side, Yes. giving additional foreign aid fon defense was 6 centainly on the table and something that was widely supponted. Is 7 that conrect? 8 MS. CROFT: Yes, Yes. 9 MR. MEADOhIS: So as that was widely supponted, and as we looked 10 at that, it has been suggested by you and by other people that this L1 aid, as it gets appnoved, you know, thene are centain t2 to happen within the Uknainian Would you say 13 that nefonms that have Govennment. sometimes those reforms wene mone of a footnote L4 than they were the very top thing, that they wene a box we had to check, 15 but we nea11y looked 16 77 mone fnom a national secunity standpoint instead of saying fix connuption on you'ne not going to get the aid, that would be mone of a secondany theme? MS. CROFT: 18 I guess it depends on which 19 talking about, whethen it's the sont of 20 to 2t nefonms. 22 23 24 25 oun bnoaden because conditionality you're conditionality as tied -- tied to oungenenal economic aid on specifically the defense MR. MEADOWS: Yeah, because I'm going to stick stnictly with defense, I think that that's the cnux of why we're hene today, is mone of a defense mode, putting aside the loan guarantee of loe Biden and pulling that back out, because that was actually a different type of UNCLASS]F]ED 133 UNCLASSIFIED L assistance. Wouldn't you agree with 2 that? 3 not militany assistance as much as 4 cornect that I was loan guanantee. it was Is that believe the conditionality that you'ne talking to the loan guanantee, yes, that was nelated 6 about 7 conditionality. MR. MEADOWS: So 8 it loe Biden thing is a -- ? MS. CROFT: 5 The if we focus just stnictly was a sepanate on the militany side 11 of things, take me back to 2Ot5-L6. What wene we doing at that panticulan point? Wene we saying we wene going to provide -- we1l, wene Javelins off the table at that point on did you all discuss lavelin 72 suppont, which would 9 10 13 MS. CROFT: t4 So we f'd be sont of haveto bneak it down package by package. did these sont annual reviews with Uknaine and with 15 intennational pantnens 15 pollcy penspective \7 Congness was supplying whene we made oun established, you know, what from the most sense to do with the fon the Department money a that -- fon State and DOD to be able to 23 of help Uknaine build its defense capacity. The convensations about whethen that should include defensive weapons wene ongoing, and I couldn't speak to necessanily specific packages, specific times, without sont of going back thnough notes. MR. MEADOWS: Right. So the defensive methods that you're just now mentioning -- and fon oun punposes I'm going to just say Javelins, 24 okay - 25 nelates to whethen lavelins should be provided on not was a back and 18 19 20 2L 22 - sont so the discussions unden the pnevious administnation as UNCLASSIFIED it t34 UNCLASSIFIED 1 forth. It said, weII, should we do it, should we not? 4 I believe from your eanlien testimony you said ultimately they decided not to give Javelins just because they wene concenned about the message that Russians might see that as pnovocative. And 5 "pnovocative" 2 3 And is my wond. MS. CROFT: Yeah, 5 I would say -- I would say, just to be very 7 specific in tenms of language on veny pnecise in tenms of 8 that the Uknainian request fon lavelins 9 administnation and discussions included concenns about the Russia 10 not appnoved under the MR. MEADOWS: A11 decision? Wene right. And so did you I MS. CROFT: L4 MR. MEADOWS: 15 MS. CROFT: 15 MR. MEADOIdS: was advocating Okay. And so -- you pensonally, but in my no1e. Pensonally. As the Uknainian expent you advocating fon lavelins and the administnation 18 no. Ultimately said 19 MS. CROFT: 20 expents advocating fon 23 24 25 with that fon lavelins It 22 agnee you advocating fon lavelins on against lavelins? 13 27 Obama neaction. 11 72 was language, no. I wene said -- ultimately said was one of many Uknaine lavelins. But, yes. MR. MEADOWS: AIl night. So you'ne saying most of the Uknainian experts were advocating fon lavelins. MS. CROFT: wonked I think broadly the Ukraine policy community that I with was in favor of that decision. MR. MEADOWS: AIl night. So broadly UNCLASSIFIED they were in favon of that. 135 UNCLASSIFIED So then we 1 fast again. fonwand a little bit to now 2@L7 and that issue You'ne saying, okay, we've got a new administnation, 2 comes up 3 so now we'ne going 4 even though the thneat was pnobably not as gneat as 5 Obama 6 to take anothen tny at getting defensive weapons, administnation, just Is it -- let connect on it was unden the because we wene so uncentain. me ask this. Is it cornect to say that 7 the advance of Russian military fonces and the uncentainty of that 8 gneaten it was in 2Ot7 and 2OL8? MS. CROFT: I would say that the line of contact hene, to youn 9 in 2015 and '16 than question, the line of contact would be nelatively static was by 2@L7 L2 MR. MEADOWS: A11 13 t4 impontant that 15 to we night. And so L7 MR. MEADOWS: And so as you 20 2L 22 23 24 25 still thought it was possible Russian aggnession? MS. CROFT: Yes. 19 but you pnovide Javelins as a defensive message as a detennent 16 18 -- put forth that eanly on in the Trump administnation, essentially within L2 months that detenmination had that, y€s, we wlll change U.S. policy and to allow for defensive weapons. Is that connect? MS. CROFT: Yes. I stanted in July and the decision was taken in Decemben. been made MR. MEADOWS: Okay. Wene you sunpnised by that decision? shift, r mean, and it's a substantial shift, fnom a foreign policy guy, it's a neaL substantial shift that obviously made Because it's a neal UNCLASSIFIED 136 UNCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 4 at the time. MS. CROFT: It was a big decision. I was veny happy about it. I don't know if I was sunpnised or not, but I was happy with the decision. MR. MEADOWS: But you wene happy about it. headlines 5 MS. CROFT: 6 MR. MEADOWS: A11 YCS. night. And so we have no lavelins unden the a decision for lavelins to 7 previous administration. 8 fonwand. And this is in spite of what I think you chanactenized eanlien 9 a deep-seated concenn by the Pnesident that the Uknainians 10 move wene a connupt countny. tt MS. CROFT: YCS. L2 MR. MEADOWS: And so 13 We have did you hean on mone than one occasion that the Pnesident felt like the Uknainian 74 M5. CROFT: Yes. 15 MR. MEADOWS: did Govennment was cornupt? Is that a position that let it. Ambassadon Kunt Volken held 16 as well or t7 Volker talk about the fact that the Pnesident had this deep-seated 18 concern about conruption bnoadly 19 MS. CROFT: Kurt and me nephnase I Did you and Ambassadon Kunt in the Uknaine? wene both pnesent of his meeting with 20 his pne-bnief 2t the Pnesident described Uknaine as cornupt. ahead with the Pnesident in Ponoshenko in September in which pnetty emphatic that he believed that? 22 MR. MEADOWS: And was he 23 MS. CROFT: The Pnesident? 24 MR. MEADOWS: YCS. 25 MS. CROFT: Yes. UNCLASSIF]ED t37 UNCLASSIFIED MR. MEADOWS: 1 is Okay. And so we have this deep-seated connupt, but yet you and your team wene pensuasive enough 2 Uknaine 3 to 4 Uknaine? That's pretty impnessive. Because, convince the Pnesident MS. CROFT: The 5 belief that to allow fon the sale of lavelins to I mean -- go to go ahead. pnovision, using U.S. secunity assistance. 7 -- but at that time it was not just that we wene going to a1Iow them to punchase things. We wene actually 8 going to give U.S. taxpayen dollans to them in onder to 9 Is that 6 MR. MEADOWS: Right. And so attain lavelins. connect? That's connect. 10 MS. CROFT: 11 MR. MEADOWS: So let's fast forwand a little bit, because neally the veny finst 72 lavelins gets mentioned, and you've 13 out of nine diffenent witnesses to anticulate what I've been tnying L4 to get to fon the last But 15 call was not pant 25th phone L7 punchase 18 thein funds. Is that 20 phone of foneign aid, were mentioned on a Ju1y it was indeed a that was going to be made by the Uknainian MS. CROFT: I person 70 houns. is the -- the veny fact that lavelins 16 19 been potential govennment with connect? have no special on independent knowledge of the call othen than the tnanscnipt 2L MR. MEADOWS: No, 22 MS. CROFT: 23 MR. MEADOWS: ho, no -- -- pub1icly. So I'm with all of you -- I'm not talking about the phone call. I'm just 24 talking about the purchase of lavelins in 2@t9. 25 that that would be Amenican taxpayen dollans that UNCLASSIFIED Was that anticipated punchased that or 138 TINCLASSIFIED L Uknainian dollans that would punchase that? 2 MS. CROFT: Ukrainian 3 MR. MEADOWS: So national funds. not only have we shift fnom the Obama 4 administration, where they wenen't pnoviding Javelins with 5 taxpayens, then we went 6 to U.S. taxpayen dollans, to 7 8 to 2@!7 whene we 2019 will potentially be purchased, Is that connect? that U.S. provided lavelins acconding says that, by the way, Javelins but no longen by U.S. taxpayer dollans. that's correct. And so that's the official policy today, the U.S. MS. CROFT: Yes, 9 MR. MEADOWS: 10 11 policy L2 have was that we to do so with their own money. Is that MS. CROFT: 13 will continue to seIl them lavelins, Yeah. I'm not awane but they would correct? that thene had been a policy L4 decision to not use secunity assistance funds to pnovide lavelins, but 15 I 16 lavelins. do know that the Pnesident expnessed an interest in Uknaine punchasing 18 night. So you'ne saying that the President has and I'11 ask it neally a double-edged expnessed a concenn that 19 question on a two-pnong question. t7 20 27 22 23 MR. MEADOWS: A11 Has the Pnesident even expnessed intenest in the of supponting Have you -- ane you awane of that? of thein weight in tenms I have MS. CROFT: 24 to step up, they need.to 25 secunity assistance. indinectly EU Uknaine defense heand him say the cannying initiatives? Eunopeans need do mone, and have undenstood that UNCLASSIF]ED mone to mean 139 UNCLASSIFIED MR. MEADOWS: Do you 1 believe that the Pnesident wants the 2 Uknainian Govennment to do mone in tenms of 3 well 5 defend itself, I believe that he does want to see Uknaine able to yes. MR. MEADOWS: 5 as ? MS. CROFT: 4 their own self-defense AII night. So let me then finish up with this. the Oval Office meeting that you nefenned to eanlien 7 The meeting, 8 the othen witnesses have nefenned to in terms of the Oval Office meeting 9 between Pnesident Zelensky and Pnesident Tnump, 10 is that -- it's and not that U.S. Uknainian policy would be changed in that Oval Office meeting, 13 of a symbolic gesture that this is a neset, that this is diffenent than the pnevious Pnesident, Ponoshenko, and that this new Pnesident is anticonnuption, and it shows the leve1 of suppont to the t4 wonld and L5 So 11 L2 it was more is it I guess mone symbolic MS. CROFT: 16 to the Uknainian people if this meeting happened. than it is policy dniven? I think oniginally -- I think oniginally it 77 Zelensky having an Oval meeting 18 fon Uknaine. I think that's is was both. a powenful symbol of U.S. suppont unquestionable. 21 in place, I think those in leadenship circles -- and I agreed -- thought that if Trump and Zelensky did meet face to face, that given thein common 22 backgnound, they would 23 to nely heavily 24 that 25 and connuption, and 19 20 Laten on, when the secunity assistance hold was put he could get a1ong, and given that the Pnesident tends on finsthand impnessions potentially at least in making policy decisions, semi-nevense his position on Uknaine that 1aten, when we leanned about the UNCLASSIFIED OMB ho1d, 740 UNCLASSIFIED 7 2 that resolving the President's concenns about conruption hopefully lead to lifting that hold. MR. MEADOWS: 3 WeII, I know you'ne an would expert on Uknainian 7 analysis. I think you'ne an expent on Oval Office analysis, because I couldn't agnee mone. I mean, what you're saying is, is that you believed if you got the two leadens togethen, that what all of a sudden is youn belief and the bnoad belief that President Zelensky was going 8 to attack conruption, that 9 would stant 4 5 6 he would get to do away with some to see that finsthand, and that of the deep-seated concenns that the !2 it relates to Uknainian connuption. Is that connect? MS. CROFT: That is -- that was centainly my hope, and it was not a hope that I -- that I had by myself, and I think it was a neasonable 13 hope 10 11 L4 Pnesident had as to have. MR. MEADOWS: So you think that was a broaden -- so it's not just 15 the expert witness Ms. Cnoft that believed this, You said thene's 16 othens some of youn othen colleagues had Yes. That's that same belief? what we wene wonking towand. 17 MS. CROFT: 18 MR. MEADOWS: And Ambassadon Volken, would he have been one if just get the two of 19 those people that believed that 20 togethen, that things would start to wonk out? 27 22 MS. CROFT: you could Yeah. I'm neluctant to speak fon him, but those the convensations that he and I had. night. 23 MR. MEADOWS: A11 24 Steve, I'11 yield to anothen 25 MR. CASTOR: Mn. Penny had Memben. a lot of questions. UNCLASSIFlED of them wene 74t UNCLASS]FIED p.m.l 1 It:42 2 MR. PERRY: 3 couple of weeks in 4 suppont fon Uknaine, genenally speaking, and what things might diminish 5 bipantisan suppont, Republicans and Democnats suppontive of oun goals 6 in Uknaine. 7 based on youn opening statement about youn time 8 should be things that ane pnetty clean to 9 at NATO And I to talk to you a litt1e bit about oven the last want this room, thene have been questions about bipartisan I just -- and I want to chanactenize it in of, with Uknaine, so it you. I undenstand in 2013, and at the desk from 2QL5 to tenms 2@1-7. you stanted In that context, diminution of bipartisan Republican on Democnat suppont 10 was thene any 11 fon Uknaine, 1et's say, duning 2Ot4, whene the U.S. ambassadon fon T2 Ukraine, Jeffney Pyatt had a convensation with Victonia Nuland, where 13 she basically t4 hesitation fon oventhnowing the elected 15 if I'm neading this nepont conrectly. 16 Did those cincumstances, as you have 18 Democnats, 20 for govennment nememben oun suppont of I mean, I don't have any flrsthand knowledge, having not been on the Hill duning that time, but I neven saw -MS. CROFT: 22 MS. CROFT: 25 and Uknaine? MR. PERRY: Did you see any evidence? 24 them, would they any bipantisan suppont, Republicans 2t 23 to Bnussels in Kyiv outnight, she said F the EU, nefenring -- did they diminish t7 19 -- well, I neven saw evidence of diminished bipantisan suppont. MR. PERRY: to obviously Okay. And over a decade, pnion to 2OL4, so that gets befone youn time there, but allegedIy spent about UNCLASSIFIED $5 L42 UNCLASSIFIED 1 billion 2 is 3 billion 4 pnomotion on democnacy pnomotion now known oven in Uknaine, duning that peniod of time as pnetty conrupt, but we kept on tnying, spending $5 that period of time fon what was descnibed as democnacy 7 efforts, even though thene wene connuption issues, did you see any evidence of a lack of bipartisan support? MS. CROFT: I don't think I can sont of sign on to sont of the charactenization of that money being exclusively fon, you know -- for 8 Democnatic suppont, but 5 6 9 I testified eanlier, it was a huge part of the pictune thene, and a lot of that aid rather economic stability. As was dinected as sont 10 economic 11 economically stable duning 13 is sti11 bipantisan 15 or evidence of it, in But even as you chanactenize, I haven't seen a decline my in bipantisan it was reponted it suppont limited capacity. MR. PERRY: And when Vice Pnesident Biden went 16 17 time. suppont? MS. CROFT: And L4 Uknaine nemain this conflict. MR. PERRY: Tumultuous 12 of helping to Uknaine and then at the CFR whene he was shown as saying, YoU know, I 19 told them you need to fine the pnosecutor, on we'ne going to withhold the $1 billion in IMF funds, on whateven that convensation was. Did 20 there continue to be bipantisan support, genenally speaking, on did 2L you see any evidence on ]ack 22 that 18 23 24 25 of bipartisan suppont fon Uknaine during time? MS. CROFT: I pensonally did not see any reduction in bipantisan support. MR. PERRY: Okay. I didn't think you did, but -UNCLASSIFIED because it 143 UNCLASS]FIED 1. seems like thene has been a convensation about that hene, and I haven't 3 eithen, so as the penson who's been anound who seems to be the expent on it, I just wanted to get youn take on it, and I appreciate 4 that. I 2 5 6 seen any to move on to a diffenent subject, based on something you said in the last nound. MS. CROFT: Yeah, I'm sonry, I just want to qualify one thing. want 7 MR. PERRY: Sune, go ahead. 8 MS. CROFT: 9 capacity -- I I did tny to be explicit in that my limited have limited personal knowledge. 19 I understand. Yeah, but fnom the knowledge that you had, night, I asked if you saw any evidence and MS. CROFT: In my limited capacity, I did not. MR. PERRY: And again, moving on, just to set this up a littIe bit, I am a netined Anmy officer, and I know that you know Lieutenant Colonel Vindman welI. As Anmy officens, thene's a general theme that it's mission finst. We kind of take on our mission very pensonally, and it becomes pensonal to us if thene's some way not to accomplish the mission. I mean, lt's mission finst, and it comes befone evenything else and it's just kind of inbned in militany officens and 20 militany pensonnel, in general, at least as fan as I'm concenned. In 2t that vein, 22 Did you say aggnessively? 23 there. 10 11 12 13 t4 15 16 t7 18 24 25 MR. PERRY: yoU had mentioned How that Colonel Vindman dnove the policy. I can't nememben exactly what you said did you descnibe it? MS. CROFT: I don't rememben what wond I engaged. UNCLASSIF]ED used, but he was hlghly 744 UNCLASSIFIED 2 fain enough. MR. PERRY: Okay, 1 Would you say he was veny passionate about it? MS. CROFT: 3 I couldn't speak to his emotional state. I 4 neflecting sont of the fnequency of meetings and the 5 and MR. PERRY: So you MS. CROFT: can't chanactenize I wouldn't MR. PERRY: when Okay. Did he even talk to 13 MR. PERRY: A11 1.4 MR. CASTOR: Mn. Anmstnong. 15 MR. ARMSTRONG: Thank you about his frustnation night. I yield to the next memben. you. You wene wonking the Uknaine desk in 2@t6, night? MS. CROFT: YES. 18 MR. ARMSTRONG: And 2t emotional NO. 77 20 to his things wenen't wonking out? MS. CROFT: t9 it kind of be comfortable speaking 12 16 whethen he took state on that. 10 11 of taskings pensonally, and took it on as his personal 8 9 just that sont of thing. 6 7 numben was I know thene's reports aftenwands and all this, but at that time when Valeniy Chaly, Uknaine's ambassadon, she wnote letten -- I mean she wnote an op-ed in The HiIl. As a memben of the desk, wene you following some of those things? 22 MS. CROFT: 23 MR. ARMSTRONG: 24 MS. CROFT: Yes, 25 MR. ARMSTRONG: How about HC. He, sonry. I was vaguely tnacking -- and it. I'm going to get all of these UNCLASSIFlED 145 UNCLASSIFIED Valentin Nelenchenko (ph), I wnong and you can connect me, 2 ambassador, thene wene some Facebook comments about 3 Wene who is secunity the Pnesident. 4 at the time when you wene at the desk? MS. CROFT: I'm it not awane ofwhat you just made neference to. 5 MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you know who Senhiy Leshchenko is? 6 MR. MEADOWS: you awane of these 7 I think it is Leshchenko. MR. ARMSTRONG: I told you I am going to 8 MS. CROFT: 9 MR. MEADOWS: He needs 11 0h, Leshchenko a Nonth Canolina interpneten. MR. ARMSTRONG: WeI1, we've 10 got nonth thene. In Nonth Dakota, we always say we have seven kinds I t2 MS. CROFT: 13 MR. ARMSTRONG: was trying to of Lutherans so. wonk with you thene, I 1"4 I appneciate it. MS. CROFT: I'm aware of him. I don't 15 ARMSTRONG: Wene 16 that butchen the names. you awane at the time was know him personally. at the desk of anything was going on 2@t6 election reganding him? 18 in the same sense that evenybody eLse was awane, you know, that thene was, you know -- Y€S, 19 sont of vaguely t7 20 21 22 23 M5. CROFT: f was only vaguely awane awane. MR. ARMSTRONG: Was thene convensation about Uknainian officials, maybe in an inregulan way, manifesting themselves into the 2016 election? MS. CROFT: Not that I was even pant of. Govennment Okay. 24 MR. ARMSTRONG: 25 MR. MEADOWS: Let me, Anybody else? Steve, come back neal quick, and then UNCLASSIFIED I will 746 UNCLASSIFIED 1 give it back to you. 3 it nelates to Senhiy Leshchenko, is that connect? Is that betten? Is it betten than my North Dakota fniend thene? He was -- was 4 he a jounnalist? 2 So as 5 MS. CROFT: He's 6 MR. MEADOWS: 7 necall 9 10 Okay. MP. And so he's -- was he an MP in 2OL6' do you ? MS. CROFT: 8 a fonmer I honestly -- I don't neca1l the timeline. I was focused mone on secunity assistance at the time, so thene wene othen folks that wene nesponsible MR. MEADOWS: So 11 let fon tnacking intennal politics. me ask one policy, at this point -- final question, what with U.S. as with the pnevious administration, L2 Uknaine 13 thene was some things that you wanted to happen. I'm centain that 74 thene's probably things that you would like to happen. 0then than 15 0va1 16 do currently Office meeting, is thene anything that you believe that to help with the Uknaine-U.S. an we could nelationship? 18 I think it's veny important that Uknaine nemain on the agenda of the -- of the U.S. foneign policy agenda. I think it 19 is 20 fon Uknaine is in the U.S. national 2L like to 22 a 23 of t7 MS. CROFT: impontant oun senion leadenship continue Iot. bang 25 been the suppont assistance. I think I think, in terms of oun secunity we have done assistance, we get a 1ot fon oun buck. The 24 acknowledge intenest. I think I centainly would see us step up oun secunity And to evolution of Uknaine's armed fonces oven the last 5 yeans has absolutely nemarkable, and I think that's a cnedit to bipantisan UNCLASSIFIED t47 UNCLASSIFIED 1 congnessional support fon secunity assistance and conditioning that 2 on defense nefonms, which have moved in a veny positive 3 also personally feel 4 States continue to have a leadenship nole in the negotiations and the 5 conflict in the east. dinection. I it is impontant that we nemain - - that the United I think we have a unique oppontunity to make fonwand pnogness on 6 7 that with the -- both the popular suppont that Zelensky has, 8 and 9 nisks in Russia, as weII as a demonstnated and Ukraine willingness to take political 10 in onden to make pnogness. The United States has played an incnedibly, I think, valuable nole in both keeping oun Eunopean LL pantnens united with us on oun Uknaine t2 sanctions negime, while at the 13 diplomacy. t4 stalled, I think 15 in oun coondination, 16 Fnance and Genmany, and then on L7 we ane 18 official that is we have a pnogness time, engaging in shuttle -- an oppontunity to make pnogness on the one hand, best positioned to do that empowened with Uknaine in coondination with the other hand, Russia. And I think if we continue to have a senion level to engage. to have someone replace Ambassadon Kunt Volken then? That's 2L MS. CROFT: 22 MR. MEADOWS: And to my pensonal want 24 fon helping us, view, yes. -- I wil] yield back. I cLose by saying thank you 23 25 and maintaining oun while acknowledge that the shuttle diplomacy has been MR. MEADOWS: So we need 19 20 And same policy, I believe, for thank you. I neally being so candid, and thank you undenstand the whole pnocess betten. MS. CROFT: Thank you. UNCLASSIFIED 148 UNCLASSIFIED BY MR. CASTOR: 1. a 2 Do you think this investigation has harmed on done some 6 to bilatenal nelations? A I think, too, in my personal view in U.S.-Uknaine nelations, I think that those nelationship -- that nelationship, I think, continues to nemain strong. And I think as long as U.S. suppont fon 7 Uknaine continues, 3 4 5 damage 8 that will not be diminished. I think it's a question of looking to the future to make sune that U.S. suppont 9 continues. you on the Uknaine desk duning the Vice Pnesident 10 a 11 Biden's 72 the pnosecuton Shokin of his duties? visit to Uknaine whene he made the comments about nelieving A Yes. 13 74 Wene But I'm going to ?go, and my memony is going a 15 to tell be a you night now, it little bit was a long time fuzzy fnom that time? As we have discussed with the holdup in aid in Ju1y, August, of this yean, there was a relatively developed interagency L6 Septemben t7 set of meetings and contacts about 18 18th 19 necollection of whethen thene was a robust intenagency pnocess nelating 20 to the loan guanantees? to Septemben 11th. And I was how the aid was held up fnom July just wondening if you have any 22 A I would not have panticipated in that pnocess at the time, because it wasn't in my pontfolio, and the desk officen at that level 23 wouldn't necessanily have panticipated in that. 2L 24 25 a something Do you nememben if thene were PCCs on the topic, or is that that would ordinanily be outside of a PCC pnocess? UNCLASSIFIED L49 UNCLASSIFIED 1 A I don't 2 a Did you happen to be on that tnip? 3 A No. 4 a Did you get involved with any 5 visit necaII. of the pnepanation fon the ? A 7 visit like that, it would typically be all hands on deck. So I think we all pnobably did suppont it, but I don't have 8 specific 6 a 9 Fon a memonies. Do you have any necollection of whether thene was a concenn 10 that given Hunter Biden's nole with the L1 Pnesident's engagement that there was a potential conflict of intenest? Bunisma company and the Vice A No, not that I was awane of. a I will just -- I'm going to nefen to Vice Pnesident Biden's L2 13 nelating this at a Council on L4 nemanks, you know, he was 15 Relations speech in Januany 2@L8. He said, 16 convincing our team - - othens to convincing that we should be pnoviding 17 fon loan guanantees. And I went oven to tny, yes, the t2th, L3th time 18 to Kyiv. 19 going Do you nememben youn I nememben Foneign going oven time on the desk was the Vice Pnesident to the Kyiv like L2 and 13 times? 22 A I don't nememben how many times the Vice Pnesident went. a Does that sound like the night night numben? A I would be guessing and dnawing fnom veny o1d memonies. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Counselon, can 20 2t 24 25 you identify what you'ne neading fnom? MR. CASTOR: This is fonmen VP's nemanks UNCLASSIFIED to council of foreign 150 TINCLASSIFIED 1 2 3 nelations on Januany 23rd, THE CHAIRMAN: neponting his 20L8. Right. But what ane you neading fnom? What is comments? his comments. 4 MR. CASTOR: These ane 5 THE CHAIRMAN: 6 MR. CASTOR: 7 THE CHAIRMAN: So you tnanscnibed 8 MR. CASTOR: 9 THE CHAIRMAN: By whom? 10 you'ne neading to the witness. It It In The Washington Post on was his comments? I'm just tnying to undenstand what This is a tnanscniption of what he said on the video. 72 THE CHAIRMAN: By membens 13 MR. CASTOR: What's that? 74 THE CHAIRMAN: By membens 17 York Times? was tnanscnibed, Yes. MR. CASToR: 16 New a video. TL 15 the of the minonity staff? of the minority staff? MR. CASTOR: Did we have a transcniben? It was just neponted in. THE CHAIRMAN: 0kay. We just don 't know the accunacy what ' s nead to you, that's why we'ne asking. the 18 MR. CASTOR: Have You seen 19 MR. MEADOWS: Do tnanscribens 20 THE CHAIRMAN: That's video? stay anonymous? perfectly fine with me. We ane just tnying 23 to identify what's being purponted to speak fon the Vice Pnesident. MR. CASTOR: We have some copies. I can get some copies. THE CHAIRMAN: The witness is asking a question, I want to 24 undenstand what you wene nefenring 2L 22 25 to. BY MR. CASTOR: UNCLASSIFIED 151 UNCLASSIFIED a 1 Anyway, I will jump to the end, and he said, you know, I looked I'm leaving in 6 houns and if the prosecuton is 2 at 3 fined, you'ne not getting the money. And then he used some colonful 4 language. 5 whethen you have any 6 necollection. 7 these types 8 like this? them and said said, and he got fined. And recollection of this, Are these types r'm just tnying to ask whethen this you nefneshes youn of, like, loan guanantees easily -- ane of deal easily bnoken on not bnoken by, like, one visit A I don't have any sont of specific memonies of being involved 9 10 And not in that pnocess. And I'm not an expent a Okay. 11 Have you had on how loan guanantees a necollection of these set of events 12 before, on is this the finst time you'ne heaning of the Vice Pnesident's 13 statements necounting what happened? t4 15 16 17 18 A I'm not entirely sune I undenstand youn question, but this is the finst time I've heand what you read aloud. a So you've neven seen the video? A I don't -- I don't know the video you'ne nefenning to, so -a I will mank it as an exhibit. 19 Did we have any exhibits today? 20 MR. GOLDMAN: No, we 2L MR. IORDAN: Ms. Cnoft 22 that 23 Biden went 24 it? 25 did not. is it likely thene was some kind of process was undentaken befone the Vice Pnesident to Uknaine and made this demand on -- could he have just IMinonity Exhibit No. L UNCLASSIFIED befone Vice Pnesident done t52 UNCLASSIFfED was manked fon 1 2 MS. CROFT: One second, Please. 3 I don't know is identification.] 4 to that question. MR. IORDAN: So he could have done this on his own without some 5 kind of pnocess, on some decision with the intenagency pnocess, he could 6 have just decided, 7 make this 8 demand MS. CROFT: honestly the answer as Vice Pnesident, I'fi on Uknaine? I don't know. UNCLASSIFIED going to go oven thene and 153 UNCLASSIFIED l2:o@ p.m. l 1 4 If I could Steve, did you have more? 0n the JuIy 18th meeting, I think you said eanlien today that, nefenencing Mn. Kent, Ambassadon Kent, you said -- on Secnetany Kent, 5 excuse me, 2 3 MR. IORDAN: I heand thene was 6 MS. CROFT: Deputy 7 MR. JORDAN: "I a hold Assistant Secnetany Kent, on DAS Kent. is I think the at this meeting. I heand thene was a hold on Uknaine" that he made that statement 8 statement you said, 9 thlnk you said you wene panticipating via video and he made that 10 statement. Is that night? t\ t2 M5. CROFT: That wasn't a verbatim account he naised about it but that he had heand about a hold. And he had heand about it fnom whom? Did he hean MR. JORDAN: 13 t4 that he -- of that moment, he naised fnom OMB, on whene did he get that infonmation, do you know? I don't specifically recall. 15 MS. CROFT: 16 MR. IORDAN: Thank t7 MR. CASTOR: Our you, and thanks again fon being time is hene. up. 20 I think we'ne going to bneak and then go to the next witness. Thank you veny much for youn testimony. I did have actually one clanification I wanted to ask fon the 2L necond. 22 was no mention 23 you wene nefenning 24 Taylor, as you're writing 18 L9 25 THE CHAIRMAN: You mentioned of B. MS. CROFT: to in youn Do you can sick notes that you took, that thene necall whethen when you wnote that note, no mention down of B by Zelensky, no mention the notes, on what that notation I don't specifically recall UNCLASSIFIED what I meant when of B by meant? I wnote L54 UNCLASSIFIED L 2 3 that. night. the next witness is available, we will THE CHAIRMAN: Qkay. A11 tde will recess, and as soon as resume. 4 MS. CR0FT: Thank you. 5 MR. MACDOUGALL: Mn. Chainman, is 6 THE CHAIRMAN: You ane excused fon today, Y€s, and we don't -- 7 expect 8 the subpoena, but yes, 9 10 my lawyens can tel1 Ms. Cnoft excused? you what the terminology terms of You ane excused. you. Thank you, evenybody. at 2: @! p.n., the deposition was concluded. ] MS. CROFT: Thank [tnJheneupon, is in UNCLASSIFIED 155 UNCLASSIFIED 1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA) 4 DrsTRrcT 0F CoLUMBTA) 5 6 UNCLASSIFTED